The Sun.
London, England, 1854-07-05 00:00:00

varb itt°

SUN OFFICE, Seven o'Clock.

NEWMARKET RACES.

(THIS DAY.)

(BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.)
HANDICAP PLATE OF £7O.

Cheddar
Folly o' the Day

Six ran.
SWEEPSTAKES.
Dead Heat with Census and Farmer's Boy.
Four ran.
MADRESFIELD STAKES.
Questionable
Melbourne c

Eight ran.
TOWN PLATE.

Epaminondas
Testy
Five ran.
SWEEPSTAKES.

Thessaly
Cacique
Moor of Venice

1
2
3

WORCESTER RACES.

(THIS DAY.)

(BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.)

FLYING STAKES.

Nelly Hill
Battery

Monimia

Twelve ran.
HANDICAP PLATE.

Titterstone
Hazlenut ..
Voucher ..

Six ran.
LADIES' PLATE.

Economy
Lady-in-Waiting
BENTINCK STAKES

Whalebone
Battery

Six ran.
SWEEPSTAKES.

Wellsbourne
Le Juif

Five ran.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(THIS DAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock.
REAL ESTATES CHARGES BILL.

This bill was passed through committee.
CHURCH TEMPORALITIES, &c., IRELAND.
The adjourned debate on the Church Temporalities,
&c., Ireland, was then resumed by
Sir J. YOUNG, who regretted that this subject had
again been brought into the Parliamentary arena after so
many concessions had been made upon it in the past.
The hon. and learned gentleman, disregarding the feel-
ings of the vast majority of the people in favour of the
Established Church, was anxious to bring in a bill which
would make a sweeping alteration in the position occu-
pied by the Irish clergy ; but he was quite confident the
house would not countenance the attempt. But sup-
posing the house gave permission to bring in the bill,
the plan that it embodied would be found impracticable,
and he would therefore suggest to the hon. and learned
gentleman whether he had not better withdraw his
motion.

Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that Irishmen would not
submit to finality upon a measure like this, nor would
they submit to the injustice of an Established Church.
He could not vote for this motion, because he was a
thorough voluntary, and would not vote a single
farthing for the support by the state of any church,
not even the one to which he belonged. What he
wanted was a total abolition of the connection between
Church and State, and he would never submit to any
modification or compromise on that question.
Mr. NAPIER could not regard this question as one
of figures in finance, but he must view it as one of
principle. He wished the Church in Ireland to
be placed upon precisely the same footing as the
Church of England, teaching the religion which the
State believes to be true. Still, if there were those who
wished to argue this as a question, they should endea-
vour to be accurate, which neither the speech of the
hon. and learned serjeant (Mr. Sergeant Shee) who had
made this motion, nor the pamphlet which he had pub-
lished on the subject was. The right honourable and
learned gentleman then proceeded at great length to ex-
pose the errors and inconsistencies of the statements of
Mr. Sergeant Shee, who, however, by the facilities he
had exhibited in arriving at a surplus, would be inestim-
able as a Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Established
Church of Ireland was civilly and socially useful; it was
guarded by the laws of the country ; it was interwoven
with the Constitution, and it would be dangerous alike
to the safety of the State and the interests of religion if
the Legislature should ever consent to a measure like
this. Principle and truth demanded that the Church
of Ireland should be supported rather than attacked.
He hoped the house would not hesitate fora moment to
reject this motion
_ _

Mr. MAGUIRE denied that there could ever be any
finality in this matter, and argued that the Act of Union,
and all subsequent legislation, had evidently proceeded
upon the assumption that the temporalities of the Church
of Ireland were still to remain an open question. The
facts and figures of the case were all on one side ; they
went to show that the Church Temp .ralities of Ireland
rested on a most unsatisfactory footing ; they provided
for the religious education of the minority at the
injury and expense of the majority of the people
which had made all impartial authorities, including Ma-
caulay himself, declare that the Established Church of
Ireland was a bad and unjust institution. Like Mr.
O'Connell, however, he was for the voluntary principle,
and therefore if the hon. and learned sergeant went to a
division upon this motion, he should feel himself con-
strained to go into the lobby against him.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON controverted the state-
ments
of Mr. Sergeant Shee on a former occasion rela-
tive to the incomes of the Sees of Ossory, Cloy ne and
gentlemanamounting
ounting
in the whole, if hisgeneral statement was as much
exag-
gerated as that
with reference to those three dioceses,to
no less than 111,0001. (Hear.) He was quite willing
to admit that the question of endowments was a most
important question, but it was surrounded with
very great difficulties ; and if he thought the great-
est of all truths truth in religion was to be
maintained by the voluntary principle, he should adopt
it, however much he might deplore the separation of
i
Church and State; but he held that the State was bound,
homage to religion, to maintain one established form
of religion. On those grounds he strongly objected to the
motion of the hon. and learned gentleman.
Sir J. FITZGERALD suppolted the motion of the
hon. and learned sergeant (Sergeant Shee).
Mr. LUCAS said in the greater part of the discussion
they had heard that day he took very little interest. He
had stated before that he did not approve of the plan of
the hon. and learned sergeant, for he did not think it
would be effective. He did not intend on this or
any other occasion to be seduced into putting himself
on the defensive as to the interpretation he had a
right to put upon the oath taken by members of this
house, notwithstanding the attack made upon him
in his temporary absence from the house by the
right honourable and learned member for the Uni-
versity of Dublin (Mr. Napier). He thought he bad
as good a right as that hon. member to put what
construction he thought best on that oath, and he was
quite of opinion that oath d;d not by any means pre-
clude him from taking part in this discussion. He be-

lieved there was no chance of this questioli being finally
settled except by the voluntary principle, and he trusted
that the people of Ireland would see the necessity of
giving up the grant to Maynooth, which he believed
stood in the way of justice being done to Ireland by
perpetrating the enormous grievance and wrong of the
Established Church of Ireland. The right honour-
able and learned member for the University of
Dublin (Mr. Napier) had vaunted of the great
alteration of the relative proportion of Catholics and
Protestants in Ireland since the census of 1834. He
(Mr. Lucas) believed there was a great alteration, but
he also believed the alteration was of an exactly oppo-
site character, and that the decrease of Protestants was
much greater than that of Catholics. The honourable
member quoted a number of statistics on this subject,
and he believed that of 15 parishes in Galway, Roscom-
mon, and Kilkenny, while the decrease of the general
population was 30, that of the Protestant population
was 54.

Mr. M‘MAHON rose to correct an historical inaccu-
racy of the right hon. and learned member for the Dub-
lin University, that the property of the Established
Church was conferred upon it in times long antece-
dent t• the Reformation. This was totally inaccurate,
as the records of Ireland showed, and even Geraldus
Cambrensis stated that in his time the Irish people did
not pay tithes, except where the English influence pre-
dominated ; and from the earliest period that tithes were
heard of they were always looked upon as a badge of foreign
domination ; and he (Mr. M 'Mahon) believed they
should never have peace or contentment in Ireland until
tithes were abolished. (Hear.)
Mr. A. STAFFORD said, without going back so far
as the twelfth century, he could state that tithes were
now collected in Ireland with the greatest facility.
Assuming, as he was bound to assume, that the fall of
the Established Church, or any heavy blow struck at
that Church, would be the most welcome news that could
reach the Vatican, he asked were they justified in
granting this great boon to Rome? And he
believed that the events of the last few
years would more than ever make the people of this
country unwilling to grant this boon ; and he was pre-
pared to give his hearty vote against the proposition of
the hon. and learned sergeant. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. KENNEDY moved that the debate be fol.
journed.
Mr. HADFIELD seconded the motion.

Mr. Sergeant SHEE said as the hon. gentleman (Mr.
Stafford) had evidently spoken on purpose long enough
to prevent his having time to reply, he trusted that the
motion for adjournment would be agreed to. (Cries of
"No," and " Divide.")
The motion for adjourning the debate was agreed to,
and it being within a few minutes of six o'clock, the
house, after disposing of some formal business on the
paper, adjourned.