The Sun.
London, England, 1853-11-03 00:00:00

LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, NOVEMBER 3, 1853.

CORPORATION OF 'THE CITY OF
LONDON.

GOVERNMENT INQUIRY.

The Commissioners resumed their inquiry yesterday,
at tike offices of the Privy Council, Downing-street.
The first witness examined was

Mr. Ingram Travers, who, having been sworn, said
that he was a wholesale grocer, in the city of London,
where he bad resided from his boyhood. He had never
directed his attention much to the municipal concerns
of the City. He was a member of the Court of the
Fishermen's Company in the City, but he had never
been connected with the corporation. He believed, in
common with most of his class, that the corporation of
the City was in a very unsatisfactory condition, unsatis-
factory in its management, and its system was old, ob-
solete, and worn out, and quite unfit to meet the re-
quirements of the present day. He was of opinion that
no partial reform would be sufficient, and that the best

course to pursue would be to sweep the corporation
away altogether, and also the local government of the
City. He would substitute in its place a chamber of
commerce, for something of that description, which
would give a voice and a mode of action to the com-
mercial classes, and would enable them to deal with
purely commercial questions.
The Chairman (Mr. Labouchere)—Then you would
have no municipal body in the city of London ?
Mr. Travers—l would not.
The ChairmanL-Do you believe that would be the
wish of the majority of the inhabitants of the city of
London ?
Mr. Travers—The first question is, who are the in-
habitants of the city of London ? I do not live there
myself, neither do hardly any pf my class. ,The mer-
chants .of the City do not reside. within Its limits ; it is
only the small shopkeepers and the employes of the dif-.
ferent large firms there who do. I believe if you were
to ask the higher class of merchants in the City, they
would agree with me in thinking that municipal insti-
tutions for cities at the present day had long ceased
to be useful or necessary, and that the corporate or
municipal government was unsuited for them. But if
you were to ask the opinion of the small shopkeepers in
the City, no doubt you would find that they would de-
sire to retain municipal government ; and they have
solid reasons for entertaining this desire, because it gives
them the control of large funds, and they are quite aware
that the large class of merchants have no time to devote
to the management of such affairs.

The Chaiiman—But your observations apply not to
London in particular, but to the whole of the United
Kingdom, do they not ?

Mr. Travers—Certainly, I think we have long passed
by the period when municipal institutions were neces-
sary. Where will you find that the redress of any
grievances has been owing to the action of corporations.
Such objects are now attained through the influence of
public meetings, which make an appeal to the Govern-
ment and the House of Commons on any matter of
public interest. At one time municipal bodies were no
doubt useful, but now I think they are a nuisance.
The Chairman—But suppose it were not considered
expedient altogether to sweep away the municipal insti-
tutions of the city of London, but to endeavour to alter
them in such a mode as to render them more in accord-
ance with the wants and spirit of the present age • are
there any changes in those institutions which you think
it would be worth while to make ?

Mr. Travers—l do not believe that there is any hope
of inducing the more highly educated classes engaged in
commerce to undertake the duties of muncipal or local
government; they have got too much to do, and they
are too intelligent to profess to be able to discharge
functions which they cannot properly understand.
How' can a merchant profess to act as a magistrate ?
If he is intelligent, and a mat' possessing a knowledge
of the world, he must know that the vocation of a
magistrate requires a special training as well as any
other•? How, again, can ho act as commissioner of
sewers, or manager of police ? To either of these sub-
jects he has never paid 'special attention, and he must
know, therefore, that he is not fit to undertake such
office's. Why, in his own business there is a minute
subdivision into different departments ; and how, then,
could a wholsale grocer or a large merchant in the city
of London presume to be a magistrate, when he has
not even the rudiments of magisterial law, and must
leave his functions in the hands of the clerk or solicitor,
thereby making it plain that it is that clerk or solicitor
who is the real magistrate, and not the man who sits
upon the bench.

The Chairman—Your objection will apply to the
whole system of the urpaid magistracy of England.
Mr. Travers—Most completely.
The Chairman—l believe it is notorious that the
higher class of merchants keep aloof from the affairs
of the corporation.

Mr. Travers—Most entirely. A large merchant in
the City, such for instance as Mr. Thomas Baring, who
would be taken by common consent to represent the
feelings of the vast bulk of the merchants—what would
be his feelings, do you think, if you were to offer him
an alderman's gown ? Why he would feel himself to be
insulted.

Mr. C. Lewis—What is the cause of that state of
,hings ?

Mr. Travers—Doubtless the office is considered by
the well-educated to be what is commonly called a
" humbug." To ask such a man to undertake an office
which he does not understand, is asking him to lend
himself to a system which he knows in his heart is a
" sham."

Mr. C. Lewis—Are there not advantages attached to
the office ; as it is said they make sacrifices to hold it ?
Mr. Travers—There may be solid advantages ; I
suppose there are ; but the higher class of merchants
do not aspire to any corporate offices.
The Chairman—Supposing it were nolonger necessary
that the Lord Mayor should be chosen from the Court
of Aldermen, do you think in that case the higher class
of merchants might be disposed to take the office of
Lord Mayor for a year, although they might not be
willing to be aldermen, and go through the whole of the
duty ?
Mr. Travers—l do not believe that anything would
induce them to undertake any office at all of the nature
of the Lord Mayor's.

Sir J. Patteson—Supposing the corporation of Lon-
don were assimilated in this respect to the municipal
bodies throughout the country, do you think there would
then be a disinclination on the part of the higher classes
to serve 1
Mr. Travers—l think there would.

The Chairman—Do not large merchants take the
office of mayor in Liverpool ?
Mr. Travers—Y es ; because it gives them great com-
mercial and political influence, but in the city of London
it confers no such advantage.
The Chairman—Would not the case be different in the
city of London if a change were made, and a merchant
of eminence were found to take the office ?

Mr. Travers—l do not think you would get a mer-
chant of high character to become Lord Mayor ; and if
you proposed to unite him to any remnant of the exist-
ing corporation, I am sure you would not.
The Chairman—Doyou not think that if an alteration
were made the office would become an object of ambition
to a merchant of good position ?
Mr. Travers—l believe it might be offered at present
to 150 merchants in the City who wculd not accept it.
In fact it is rather considered a favour than otherwise to
accept the office of sheriff. If you were to rob the City
of its commercial character, and constitute an immense
municipality, 15 or 16 square miles round, placing the
Lord Mayor in Parliament-street, and giving him a
Government character, you might then get a man of
position to take the office; but you would make it
necessary that he should have a peculiar training, such
as would soon render him a permanent officer.
The Chairman--But respectable merchants are found
holding the office of Mayor of Manchester?
Mr. Travers—There is no comparison between the
city of London and either Liverpool or Manchester in
this respect.

Mr. C. Lewis—Do you contemplate making the Lord
Mayor a permanent Government officer; like the Prefect
of the Seine ?

Mr. Travers—l do not exactly say that, but I see no

difficulty in making the local admiiistration of the me-
tropolis a part of the Government.
Mr. C. Lewis—Are you prepared to say that you
would have the whole of England governed from the
Home-office ?

Mr. Traver S—l am not prepared !to say that, but I
would begin with London. The nature of a manufac-
turer's business in Manchester gives him greater leisure ;
and in London the time of a merchant is much more
occupied than is the case anywhere else.
Mr. C. Lewis—Supposing your view were acted upon,
and the corporation of London were swept away, what
functions of local government would then remain to be
provided for?
Mr. Travers—•l am not sufficiently acquainted with
the details of the government of the City to be able to
enter upon that subject, but I imagine there is no por-
tion of that government which might not be absorbed
into the general government of the country. There is
the police, and the sewerage, the latter of which is now
managed by a local commission forming part of the cor-
poration. The separate organization of the City police
was perhaps not absolutely bad in its working, but he
thought it would be bettor if it were absorbed into the
general system of metropolitan police.
The Chairman—Do the objections you have heard
urged against the corporation refer to the system or to
the conduct of individuals who act under it?

Mr. Travers—My own observations would lead me to
believe that the system itself is very much worse than
the management. Within the last few years, under the
dread of reform and the influence of public opinion, I
believe the management of the corporation has been very
much improved, but the system itself is very defective.
The Chairman—Do you believe there has been more
care-in the selection of officers ?
Mr. Travers—l do.
Mr. C. Lewis—Do you consider the salaries of the
officers of the City unreasonable in amount ?
Mr. Travers—l think they are high, but not too high
—you cannot have the service of men of talent, educa-
tion, and position, without paying them well.
Mr. C. LewiS—Are the duties they perform of suffi-
cient importance to require men of high education.
Mr. Travers—No ; and I think that one-half of the
expenses of the corporation might be easily saved.

' Mr. C. Lewis—Are the duties of the City Chamber-
lain heavy ?
Mr. Travers—l believe the Chamberlajn's office is
almost a sinecure, and the salary and emoluments are
considerable. I have not attended particularly to the
management of the finances of the corporation. The
tolls and dues exacted in lie City are very great impedi-
ments to commerce. In my own trade cargoes of green
fruit meet with considerable obstruction, and the same
is the case with meat and other articles. Officer§ are
appointed to levy a toll on certain species of foreign
fruit. I often hear complaints from other people, but
in my own personal experience I have bad no grounds
for complaint. I see no' possible advantage in connect-
ing. the freedom of the City with the guilds or comb
panies. I consider the tax upon the exercise of a retails
trade is a simple oppression. The privileged
the fellowship of porters, and similar bodies ity,
are a great hindrance to commerce, and-f. !Jen'. its of a
very vicious system.
The Chairman—Have you any Oalar .remarks to
make ?
Mr. Travers—l have no other observations to mike,
except to express my own willingness, and that of my
class in the City, to give every information and all the
assistance in our power in furtherance of the objects of
this commission.
The Chairman—We are very much obliged to you.

Mr. Travers then withdrew.

Mr. Acland was next recalled, and his examination
was continued from yesterday. He stated that the
aldermen are governors of the royal hospitals, such as
Christ's Hospital, St. Bartholomew's, St Thomas's, &c.
They also have the licensing system in their hands ; and
thus they have the means of exercising great influences,
and in some instances the advantageous influence, in
the City.. When I say an advantageous influence, I,
allude to the presentations to,:the royal hospitals,' and
the like. In administering the licensing system, how-
ever, the aldermen are open to great suspicion of par-
tiality and prejudice. Without being able to point out
any specific charge against them" to my own knowledge
the irrevalent feeling in.the.city is, that if a man can
obtain the support of one alderihan for one reason, and
the support of another for some reason, the two will
exercise their influence with their brethren in procuring
him a license. I have heard it said that one alderman,
who was a wine-merchant, exercised a direct influence
for personal purposes.
Mr. C. Lewis—Has it ever been alleged against the
aldermen that they were connected with the brewers ?
Mr. Aeland—l am not aware of any specific case of
the kind ; but there are always vague suspicions afloat.
Nepotism is also charged against the corporation in the
administration of its patronage. The following state-
ment gives evidence of the amount of municipal nepo-
tism in the exercise of corporate patronage, as it fur-
nishes a number of offices held by the relative of per-
sons who either are or have been members of the Court
of Aldermen and Court of Coatmon Council. These
officers are as under, viz :
Chamberlain, late an alderman.
Clerk to Sitting Justices, late an alderman.
Rectory of St. Peter's, dornhill, son of an alderman.
Governor of Debtors' Prison, nephew of an alderman.
Vicar of Christ Church, ditto.
Clerk to Fellowship of Free Porters, nephew and part-
ner of an alderman.
Surgeon to Police Force, brother to alderman's partner.
Comptrol, late a common councilman.
Solicitor, ditto.

High Bailiff of Southwark, ditto.
Commissioner of Police, ditto.
Swordbearer, ditto.
Secretary to the Irish Society, ditto.
Bridge Master, ditto-
Bridge Master, ditto.
Keeper of the Green-yard, ditto.
Housekeeper at the Session-house, ditto.
Upholsterer to ditto, ditto.
Keeper of the Monument, ditto.
Clerk of the Court of Bequests, ditto.
Superintendent of Mooring Chains, ditto.
Common Crier, ditto.
Fruit Meter, ditto.

Beadle of Coal Exchange, son of ditto.
Clerk Sitter, ditto.
Clerk to the Navigation, ditto.
Gresham Lecturer on Astronomy, ditto,
City Carpenter, ditto.
Clerk to Commissioner of Sewers, ditto.
Messenger to Irish Society, ditto.
Clerk to Commissioner of Sewers, son of deputy.
Clerk to Corn Meters in Trust, ditto.
District Surveyor, ditto.

Collector of City Wine Dnes, brother of common
councilman.
Governor of Newgate Prison, ditto
Printer to the Corporation, ditto.
Gresham Lecturer on Music, ditto.
Water Bailiff, nephew of common councilman.
One portion of this patronage is vested in the Court of
Aldermen and another portion in the Court of Common
Council. The list above given is evidence of the spirit
of selfishness and personal advancement which charac-
terises the corporation, and is sufficient to justify the
bad odour in which it held. The whole municipal con-
stituency does not comprise one-third of the total num-
ber of occupiers rated at 101. The Court of Common
Council consists of 206 members, the number having
been reduced from 240. This always excludes the
twenty-six aldermen. The reduction was effected by an
ordinance of the Common Council, passed after the re-
port of the previous commission. The 206 members of
the Common Council are elected annually, and the
twenty-six aldermen. for life. The municipal ward lists
serve for the election of common councilman as well as
of the aldermen. The election of the common council.
men is generally preconcerted. Most wards have pre-
chits, which constitute separate committees, and at these
precinct meetings, which are attended often by only
two or three persons, a nominee list at candidates is
drawn up, and recommended to the wardmote. Cakes
and,wine circulate freely at these precinct meetings, and
the "nomination list" agreed upon under such circum-
stances generally comprises all the retiring members of
the Court of Common Council, who in most cases are
all re-elected. If anybody proposes a new candidate,
he is considered as an intruder, and the name is placed
at the bottom of the list. In the wards having no pre-
cincts the clique of publicans pre-arrange who shall be
the preferable candidates, and return a list indirectly to
the wardmotes. I am not aware of any other case of
direct bribery in the election of common councilmen.
There is at all events a semblance of purity in their elec-
tion as compared with that of the aldermen, at which a
money power is wielded. But the Court of Common
Council have an influence in the enormous patronage be-
longing to them, and it is exercised very generally in
the committees of that. body. An allowance of 2,8251.
a year is made by the corporation to these com-
mittees, and this, together with the patronage, offers a
strong inducement to men of small minds to struggle to
get upon the committees which have the largest share of
those allowances. The committee which manages the
Irish estates of the corporation recently went to Ireland
on business, and made the tour of the lakes with their
wives until the allowance was all spent ; and that is but
a sample of hundreds of similar cases.
Mr. C. Lewis—ls it not understood that the commit-
tee allowances are made for business purposes?
Mr. Acland—lt is distinctly understood that it is
eating, drinking, and pleasure money. Trips are either
got up, or business trips are extended and varied, as the
common councilmen may feel inclined. A pleasure trip
may be got up, for instance, on the pretext that a pile
requires to be driven fur the Thames conservancy. In
the year 1849, the consolidated committee, considering
that the corporation had been misrepresented before the
Government and the public, made a report to the Court
of Common Council asking for a grant of money for the•
purpose of setting themselves right with the °public
through the instrumentality of the press. The court had
since voted the committee a sum of 1,0001. annually to
be allotted for that purpose, and I believe that 4,0001.
during the last four years had been spent in the order-
ing of hundreds of papers upon occasions when a news-
paper reported the proceedings of the corporation, as
they thought, satisfactorily. I am quite sure that
during all that period The Times has not received one
farthing of that money. lam quite certain that the
expenditure of that money directly or indirectly induces
the papers to suppress that which would be unfavour-
able to the corporation if known, and to give us favour-
able a report of its proceedings as by their ingenuity
they may be able to do.

14

The Chairman—Are not the details of this expen-
diture of 1,0001. a year laid before the Court of Common
Council, and afterwards before the public ?
Mr. Acland—Certainly not. There are many details
of moneys expended by the corporation which are not
published. •

Mr. C. Lewis—Assuming that certain quantities of
newspapers are purchased, who decides which newspaper
shall be selected, and how many copies shall be taken ?
Mr. Acland—The members of the consolidated com-
mittee.

Mr. C. Lewis—Do you believe the question is brought
before the committee and put to the vote ?
Mr. Acland—No ; I think the committee will have
some confidential agent or leading member, or they
have confidence in some of their officers ; and an inti-
mation that a paper has a satisfactory report on a parti-
cular day will be followed by the sending for 500 copies.
I believe .that in some cases the application is made,
" Won't you take some papers—we have an excellent
article on the corporation in our paper to-day ?" I be-
lieve that is the system.
Mr. C. Lewis—Don't you know the particular indi-
viduals who manage this kind of business ?
Mr. Acland—No, I do not ; but I suppose it must
be done by some persons one day, and by other persons
on another. I believe there are always officers about
Guildhall, near the members of the committee, to take
orders and execute commissions. The consolidated com-
mittee consists of fourteen aldermen and the Lord Mayor.
A common councilma n serves a considerable number of
years, and is generally re-elected until he is promoted
to some corporate office. In addition to the sum of
2,8251., of which I have spoken, 5001. are specially
voted for the expenses of an annual procession in a gilt
barge on the Thames, when many ladies are present,
;together with the Lord Mayor and all the municipal
paraphernalia, and good cheer and good fellowship go
round. Very much of the allowance to the committees
is spent on dinners, and if a man cannot attend these

banquets very regularly, he is soon told that he is a bad
eater, and cannot therefore be made chairman of his
committee. Generally speaking, the higher offices Of
the corporation are filled by officers well qualified to
discharge their duties.
The Chairman—You may go on now with your ob-
servations as to the court of common hail.
Mr. Acland—The common hall is a very ancient part
of the corporation, and is invariably held in the Guild-
hall, which is inconveniently situated, but quite suit-
able for such proceedings as frequently take place there.
The common hall consists of the liverymen of the vari-
ous guilds, whether occupiers and residents or not.
The Parliamentary Reform • Bill requires that they
4_ e within seven miles of the City, but at the
men hall they are all allowed to vote, whether they
live within the prescribed distance or not, provided
their names appear on the guilds. The total num-
ber of the livery is about 10,000, 7,000 of whom are on
the parliamentary register as residing within the 7 miles
limit. The rest are non-occupiers of limited means.
Not above 400 take any general interest in the proceed.
ings of the common hall, and, indeed, the usual attend.
ance is rarely more than half that number. The func-
tions of the livery are to elect the Lord Mayor, the
Sheriffs, the. Chamberlain, the bridge-masters, the audi-
tors, &c. The elections at common hall are genarally
managed by a system of undisguised corruption. This
remark applies to the election of Lord Mayor sometimes
and to the election of the Sheriffs and the Chamberlain
almost invariably. In 1831, when the office of Lord
Mayor was contested by Sir John Key and Sir Peter
Laurie, Mr. Alderman Lucas, a lighterman of treat in-
fluence on the river side, tool :a prominent part in the
election, induced a large number of the City watermen
and others employed on the river bank (who, having a
corporate character, are required to be members of the
livery companies) to vote for his favourite candidate,
Alderman Key, and that election cost from 12,0001. to
15,0001., a very large amount having been given to these
"'longshore men." The present "'longshore men " are
a class of voters who receive tickets for ls. or is. 6d. a
head for their votes. These men recognise certain mem-
bers of their body who act as " managers " for them,
and attend the common hall to hold up their hands at
the elections, which are generally decided by them, ex-
cept when there is a contest. Politics rarely mingle
with the elections—it is generally a question of money
with the "managers." 'I have no personal knowledge
of the expenditure incurred at the election of Sir J. Key
but it is the subject of common report in the City, and the
agents have avowed it. It is not considered illegal in the
city of Lonnon to bribe at municipal elections, and no
penal consequences ever ensue to those who practise cor-
ruption. In the contest in 1846 between Sir G. Carroll
and Mr. T, Wood, about 4,0001. or 5,0001. was spent.
The livery are notoriously venal. The most recent in-
stance of bribery was at the election of the present Lord
Mayor elect, Mr. Alderman Sidney. There were but
two candidates proposed, but others would have been
nominated, had not a sum of, I believe, 2001. been paid
to the " managers " for the longshore men not to put
their threat in execution. Alderman Sidney was be-
lieved to be a corporate reformer, and it was thought
desirable that he should not be Lord Mayor. Bribery
was openly practised at the election of Chamberlain
during the present year, and the sums paid for votes
varied from 11. to 101. each. The candidates were Sir
J. Key, and Mr. Scott, the deputy-chamberlain. I
acted as the agent of Mr. Scott on the occasion.
The Chairman—Are you willing to state what took
place with regard to the candidate for whom you were
agent ?

Mr. Arland—Certainly ; money was given to parties
for their votes. Mr. Scott was the popular candidate,
and had no occasion to bribe until the!wholesale and syste-
matic corruption of the other side was turning the scale,
when a small but insufficient effort was made on the
part of Mr. Scott to counteract it, and money was paid
to Mr. Scott's voters. Had Mr. Scott taken what I
consider sound advice, and spent an additional thou-
sand, the result might have been different, but that
gentleman said he had no more spare cash, and although
his friends were ready to back him, he would not spend
their money. The, office of Chamberlain is very advan-
tageous. The salary is good, and there is very little to
do, and the Chamberlain himself is not so competent to
discharge the duties as his deputy is.
Mr. C. Lewis—The whole emoluments of the Cham-
berlain's office are returned at 2,5001. Do you believe
that that is really all 1
Mr. Abland—l do not ; but I do not think anybody
but Mr. Scott himself could give the particulars. There
is a complicated arrangement as to the balances of the
corporation, from which the Chamberlain makes a
profit. A sum of 70,0001. lies in the chamber of
the city of London, the balance of a fund set apart
for buying up and exhausting certain offices. This
fund is called "No Man's Fund," and cannot be
satisfactorily disposed of without an Act of Parlia-
ment for the purpose. I believe the Chamberlain has
the use of this fund to this extent, that if ever there be
an expenditure of the corporate estate funds beyond the
assets in hand, he has always the power of going to that
fund of 70,0001. for a temporary accommodation. lam
not aware that an account is rendered of any interest
derived from that fund, and I think the Chamberlain
must have the advantage of the accruing interest.
Mr. C. Lewis—Are you aware if this fund of 70,000/.
has formed the subject of any investigation in the Court
of Common Council ?

Mr. Aclandz---I am not aware that it has. The pre-
vious Royal Commissioners recommended that an alter-
ation should be made in the system of paying the Cham-
berlain by the power of dealing with the balances of the
Corporation ; but I am not aware that any improvement
has yet'been made' in this respect.
Mr. C. Lewis—ls there any advantage in keeping up
the distinction between the constituency of the common
hall and the general body of the freemen ?
Mr. Acland—l cannot see any ; and the common hall
infringes on the rights of the latter body.
The Chairman—Passing to the office of Lord Mayor,
have you any observations to offer ?

Acland—No. I have already referred to the
elections for that office in 1831 and 1846, when there
were contests. The liverymen elect two aldermen, from
whom the Court of Aldermen select one to be Lord
Mayor ; and the usual practice, with rare exceptions, is
for the Court of Aldermen to select from the two alder-
men recommended by the livery the one who stands next
in rotation for the chair. It would be preferable if the
Lord Mayor was chosen from the members of the Court
of Common Council, instead of exclusively from the
Court of Aldermen.

The Chairman—Do you think it would be desirable to
entirely sweep away the municipal institutions of the
city of London, and substitute nothing for them ?
Mr. Acland—Certainly not. I do not think the
citizens of London would be satisfied at being entirely
deprived of municipal institutions, while Liverpool,
Manchester, and other large cities possess them.
Mr. C. Lewis—Supposing the corporation of the
City to be reformed as you would wish, what would
be the advantages which thb City would enjoy over
that part of the metropolis which has no municipal
institutions ?

Mr. Acland—The municipal funds held in trust by
the corporation would be administered under the re-
sponsibility of popular-election.
Mr. C. Lewis—Then you think the problem to be
solved in reforming the City corporation is to secure
the proper administration of the trust property ?
Mr. Acland—Principally so, and I would exercise
the magisterial functions from the administration of
the funds.

The Chairman—Are there not historical recollec-
tions which would make the citizens unwilling to be
placed upon the same footing as Marylebone and the
other metropolitan boroughs in regard to the muni-
cipal institutions ?
Mr. Acland—No doubt there are. As a boy I
was delighted with the Lord Mayor's show, but now
I have an utter contempt for it, as being a barbar-
ous display kept up to please a vulgar mob.
The Chairman—lf the pageant were reduced to
proper dimensions to meet the taste of the present
day, ought not the chief magietrate of the first com-
mercial city in the world to maintain a hospitality
consistent with it? dignity ?
Mr. Acland—ldeas differ as to dignity and hos-
pitality, but at all events, legitimate views of the sub-
ject are not incompatible with business-like habits and
commercial qualities.
The Chairman—What is your opinion of the civic
entertainments ? _

Mr. Ackland—They are often given for political pur-
poses. It is thought to be convenient for the Ministers
of the day to have an opportunity of setting themselves
right with popular feeling, and of ventilating their opi-
nions ; but surely there are other modes of accomplish-
ing that object, and the most honest way would surely be
to pay for one's dinner instead of taking it out of the
public funds.
Mr. C. Lewis—What is the allowance made to the
Lord Mayor to defray the cost of civic entertainments ?
Mr. Acland—l believe it approximates to 10,0001.
Mr. C. Lewis— Is that sum always sufficient ?
Mr. Acland—Oh, no ! The next mayoralty, for in-
stance, will cost more for these entertainments. But in
some mayoralties the expenses of official hospitality do
not equal the allowance, and the Lord. Mayor profits by
the surplus.

Mr. 0. Lewis—Does the office involve expenses over
and above the allowance ?

Mr. Acland—That depends on the liberality of the
Lord Mayor for the time being. If the Lord Mayor
were to say there shall be no show, he would save 1,5001.,
and he could then afford to be more charitable ; but if it
were known beforehand that he would not have a "show,"
he would not be allowed to become Lord Mayor. It is
considered discreditable for a Lord Mayor to save money
out of his allowance ; but, nevertheless, it is believed
that a particular Lord Mayor not unfrequently manages
to save some.

The Chairman—Do you wish to see the state and hos-
pitality of the Lord Mayor altogether done away with,
or reduced to narrow limits ?
Mr. Acland—l wish to see more of the state which
appertains to the high character of the occupant of the
office and the high discharge of its duties, rather than to
see the gewgaw and glitter which now hide defects and

scarcely erntellish qu—alification.
The Chairman—But you would not object to decent,
and even liberal, hospitality ?
Mr. Acland— No man would object to that, but to a