The Sun.
London, England, 1854-06-10 00:00:00

THE WAR MINISTER.

The Earl of DERBY said he understood that a new
writ would be moved in the other house that evening
for the city of London, in the room of the noble lord the
leader of that house, who was to be appointed to the
office of President of the Council. He wished to know
whether the noble lord had formally accepted that office,
and also whether the Government would have any ob-
jection to explain the precise duties and functions of the
Minister of War whom it was proposed to appoint.
The Earl of ABERDEEN said his noble friend, Lord
John Russell, had accepted the office of President of the
Council, and would continue to remain in the House of
Commons. He had further to state that it was intended
to separate the functions of the Secretary of the State
for the War and the Colonies. This separation would be
carried into effect before the next meeting of the house.
The functions and powers of the Secretary of War would
be the same as those now possessed by the Secretary for
the Colonies. What further changes might hereafter
take place in the military department he was not now
prepared to state.
A NOBLE EARL inquired whether the new Minister
would have anything or nothing to do with the financial
department of the army I
The Earl of ABERDEEN—Nothing whatever as at
present determined.
Lord PANMURE was glad to find that the Govern-
ment had at last, owing to the opinion expressed in both
houses, and the opinion of the public as conveyed through
the press, adopted that course which he thought would
eventually turn out to be the only expedient one for the
administration of military affairs in this country.
The Earl of DERBY must again inquire whether the
War Minister would be invested with a power with re-
gard to the finances and the patronage of the army, and
whether it was proposed only to appoint him during a
period of war.
The Earl of ABERDEEN replied that he would not
have such powers, but he would have the entire admi-
nistration of all other matters relating to the
army. That would at least be enough during
war ; and as to a time of peace, perhaps the noble
earl would be good enough to wait until that event
arrived before expecting an answer to his question. If
that happy day should ever come, the Government would
then be able to make an arrangement with regard to the
other duties of the office. (Laughter from the Opposi-
tion.) He considered that the appointment of the new
minister would be of great benefit to the public service.
MILITARY ORDER OF ST. GEORGE AND

THE GARTER.
The Earl of ALBEMARLE moved for the appoint-
ment of a select committee to inquire into the adminis-
tration of the funds of the charities connected with the
military order of St. George and the Garter more espe-
cially with relation to the early grant of King Edward
111., commonly called the Old Dotation, and that of
Elizabeth, commonly called the New Dotation.

The LORD CHANCELLOR opposed the motion, on
the ground that the question involved was one of legal
right, which could only be prosecuted in the Court of
Chancery.

Lord CAMPBELL and Lord BROUGHAM concurred in
the view taken by the Lord Chancellor ; and after
some observations from Earl FITZWILLIAM the motion
was withdrawn.

NUISANCES REMOVAL AND DISEASES PRE-
VENTION ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
DUBLIN PORT BILL.

This bill passed through committee.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (8,000,0001.) BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
INCOME TAX BILL.
This bill was read a second time.

The High Treason (Ireland), the Church Building
Acts Amendment, and the Industrial and Provident So-
cieties Bills, were severally read a second time.
Their lordships adjourned at a quarter after 7 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMIONS-(YESTERDAY.)

Thn SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

Th 3 Lords Amendments to the Clyde Navigation Bill
were considered and agreed to. _ _

The following bills were read a third time and passed :
—Caledonian Railway (Lesmahagow Branches, &c.) ; Glas-
gow Suspension Bridge; and Great Western Railway
(Berks and Hants, &c.)

Mr. J. FORSTER. moved that the order for the third
reading of the Sonth•Eastern Railway (Lewisham to
Bromley, etc.) Bill be discharged, and that the bill be
withdrawn.

Mr. GEACH complained of this motion as a breach of
faith towards the inhabitants of Mid Kent.

• . . _
Mr. JAMES MACGREGOR protested against the mo-
tion, as being adverse to the interests of the South Eastern
Company. It should have been left for the shareholders
to reject the bill, or otherwise, at the ordinary Wharn-
cliffe meeting.
After some further discussion, the motion was agreed to.

Mr. WILSON replied in the affirmative.
In answer to Mr. PELLATT,
Sir W. MOLESWORTH stated that there would be no
law charges beyond the amounts voted as salaries to the
law officers of the board.

Lord SEYMOUR. said, in answer to a remark of Mr .W.
Williams, that he had substituted the payment of •the
solicitors by salaries, instead of fees, in accordance with
the wish of the house that the fees should be discontinued.
The business, as a matter of convenience, had been divided
between two legal gentlemen.
Mr. HUME asked if the solicitor in this department was
also solicitor to another department.
Mr. WILSON said that Mr. Gardner was solicitor to
the Office of Works, and also to the forest department of
the Office of Woods.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said he understood the two gentle-
men, Mr. Gardner and Mr. Pemberton, were in partner.
ship, and very large sums were paid to them as salaries.
Mr. WILSON said this was so, but the duties of the
offices were extremely heavy, and the fees, which had been
abolished, were very lucrative.
Mr. HUME wished to have a statement of the number
of leases prepared and sales effected. There also had been
purchases made ; he wished to know on whose authority.
This system ought to be checked ; and the crown lands
should be properly defined. It had appeared before Lord
Duncan's committee that the expenditure in this way was
enormous. He hoped to see it altogether put an end to.
There was one forest which only produced a few thousand
pounds, which, under proper management, might be made
to yield at least 400,0001.
Lord SEYMOUR said a book was laid before the house
every year, from the land revenue department, showing all
the sales and purchases of the year. He agreed as to the
necessity of consolidating the crown property, by disposing
of the small detached portions, which were scattered over
forty counties; but it would not do to force these pro-
perties into the market. The London property alone
yielded 100,0001. a-year, and he was certain that it was
managed at one-half the cost of any other property of equal
value. -

Mr. W. WILLIAMS said there was but one commis-
sioner of his department, and hitherto there had been but
one secretary; now an assistant-secretary was appointed,
at GOO/. a-year. He could not suppose that there had been
any necessity for this. What were the additional duties ?
There was also an increase of fees to counsel, and other
matters, amounting to 4001.
Sir W. MOLES WORTH said a committee of the Trea-
sury had been appointed to inquire into the constitution
of the board. They thought it impossible that the duties
should be properly discharged without an assistant secre-
tary ; and upon their recommendation, one had been ap-
pointed. The increase in the other items referred to was
owing to the uncertainty which prevailed beforehand as to
the amount that would be required.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY tusked if the report of that com-
mission of inquiry was on the table of the house. The in-
crease in these items would be more intelligible if they saw
the reasons assigned by the commissioners. Why had an
architectural assistant been appointed, as well as an as-
sistant secretary.
Sir W. MOCESWORTFI said this apointment had also
been made on the recommendation of Sir' C. Trevelyan
and the other commissioners.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS said the right hon. baronet ought
to have come and asked the house for assistance, if ho
needed it, on his own responsibility.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the appointment of the
commission had taken place on application to the Treasury,
as he felt that the department was not sufficiently strong.
Their recommendations had been embodied in a report,
and laid before the house ; and the consequence was these
increased estimates.

After a few words from Mr. A. Pellatt, Mr. Williams,
and Sir John Trollope,
Mr. HUME asked who were the gentleman who had re-
ceived these appointments, and whether the new prin-
ciple had been acted on of inquiring into their qualifica-
tions.

Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the Assistant-Secretary,
Mr. Phillips, had held the office of clerk in the Board of
Works for many years, and ho had been apointed for his
meritorious services. The architectural assistant was Mr.
Smith, who had been employed at Constantinople, and
had always been in the establishment of the Board of
Works. He had been sent out to Constantinople to su-
perintend the repai•s of the embassy there.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY expressed fear that the appoint-
ment of these additional officers would lead to additional
expense.
Mr. WILSON said Mr. Smith was not a new officer at
all ; ho had been in the Board of Works for years before
he wont out to Constantinople. While he was there, his
salary did not appear in this estimate, but was charged to
another department. There was really, therefore, no in-
crease in the amount of salary at all.
Mr. HUME bore testimony to the efficiency of Mr. Phil-
lips. He thought it desirable that the department should
have an architect of its own, who was totally independent
of other parties. He wished to know who now filled the
place of Mr. Smith at Constantinople.
Mr. WILSON said the duty there had been performed
and no other appointment had been made. Mr. Smith
would not go out again to Constantinople.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY still objected to the increase.
After a few words from Sir J. V. Shelley, Mr. Vance,
and Mr. 1111111 C, who recommended that the Board of
Works should present a report annually to Parliament, the
vote was agreed to.
22,8461., salaries and expenses in the offices of Woods,
Forests, and Land Revenues.
On this vote.
Mr. VANCE called attention to the fact that a very
small portion of the revenue of this department was ex-
pended in Ireland, though about 30,0001. of it was drawn
from that country. Tho commissioners applied large sums
for the improvement of streets in London ; but they had
recently refused a small grant for widening one of the
approaches to the railway station in Dublin.
Sir J. V. SHELLEY asked if any one had been appointed
in the place of Mr. Kennedy, late a commissioner.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ssid that
the office was virtually vacant ; but the mode in which it
was to be supplied was rather a serious question, and ono
involving much consideration. _ .

Sir J.-PAKINGTON wished to call the attention of the
right hon. gentleman to an outrage which had been com-
mitted on a respectable lady in Richmond-park, in broad
daylight. A footpad came up to her, and, presenting a
pistol at her, obtained possession of her watch and other
property. Since then he had heard of another outrage,
though not of so aggravated a character, which had been
committed in the same park. Great alarm was naturally
felt in the neighbourhood in consequence of these outrages,
and some security should be given to protect the public
against them by the employment of police. (Hear.)
Sir W. MOLES WORTH said he had heard of the rob-
bery in question, but he understood it was an isolated case.
That being so, be did not think that there was sufficient
ground to ask for an increase of expenditure, which must
take place if a body of police was to be placed in the park,
which was several miles in circumference.

Mr. HUME said that the house voted last night a sum
of 5,252/. for the maintenance of the park for public use.
Of this sum 2,8431. was for the ranger. He should have
thought that protection to the public ought to be secured
by this expenditure. (Hear, hoar.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped that after what had been
so justly stated by the hon. member for Montrose, some
explanation would be given as to the expenditure of the
money. The right hon. gentleman said that only one in-
stance had occurred. His information was different; but,
even one case of the kind was sufficient to show the neces-
sity of due protection being afforded. He had been in
Richmond a good deal lately, and he saw many objection-
able characters about.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH had no objection to give a re-
turn showing how the money was expended. He would
have the subject considered, and ascertain what the cost of
a sufficient police force would bo. But if it was decided
that such a force should exist, they must be prepared to
vote a considerable increase in the estimates.
Mr. FRENCH said the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wilson)
had not replied to the question of the hon. member for
Dublin.
Mr. WILSON said that the view taken with regard to
the expenditure of public money by the hon. member for
Dublin was erroneous. Though it was true that the ex-
pense of improvements in London was defrayed, in the
first instance, by the office of works, it was in reality
borne by the people, who suffered themselves to be taxed
by an additional coal duty. With regard to the crown
property in Ireland, ho was sorry to say that it was not
well paid. Their object was to sell the outlaying small
property, and to concentrate it in cities. Crown property
had been sold in the Orkneys, and other remote parts with
that view. When they effected sales of crown property
they were obliged to buy other property with the proceeds,
because they were not at liberty to dispose of any part of
the capital of such property.
Mr. 'WHITESIDE sai it was the duty of the Govern-
ment to provide proper courts for the administration of
justice. The people of Dublin offered to have themselves
taxed for the contemplated improvements, but their offer
was refused.
Mr. MACARTNEY complained that the Crown pro-
perty in Ireland was so extremely mismanaged that it in-
jured other property in the neighbourhood.
Mr. HUME said that the ranger of Richmond Park was
the Duchess of Gloucester, and as she, of course, employed
a deputy, ho should like to know who he was. Ample
and adequate allowance was made for the branches of the
royal family, and he objected to their getting more money
under cover of duties which they did not perform. If the
allowance was not ample enough, let it be increased in tau
open way.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the vote for Richmond
Park had been agreed to last night, and it was irregular
to re-open the discussion.
Mr. HUME said he would move for a return of the
expenditure of the money. It was understood that the
duties of departments from the receivers general to the
lowest officers were not to be performed by deputy.
The vote was then agreed to.
2,791/. for the expenses of the State Paper-office was
agreed to.
On the vote of 3,4631. for the expenses of the ecclesias-
tical commission,
Mr. WILLIAMS said he would divide the house on this
vote, on the ground that it was unjust to make the public
pay for the management of church property. Church pro-
perty had been greatly improved since it was placed under
the commission, and that was a further reason why the
expenses of management should be defrayed from that
property, and not by the public at large. (Hear.)
Mr. HADFIELD would cordially support the hon.
gentleman's amendment, as he would support all proposi-
tions directed against the taxing of the people for the
maintenance of doctrines of which they did not approve.
Mr. WILSON said that the commission was appointed
b 7 rarliarant, wad the pi,jectio pay hr osusea

Mr. 3. WILSON said the commissioners wore paid out
of the funds of the commission.
The committee then divided—
For the vote
Against it
On the vote of 210,9021. for the expenses of the adminis-
tration of the law for the relief of the poor,
Colonel DUNNE said he could see no necessity for
having two commissioners for Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
There was, too, an unnecessary number of assistant com-
missioners of architects, assistant architects, and assistant
architects. Now that the workhouses had all been built,
and the arrangements made, it could not be requisite to
maintain so large a staff ; and he hoped the right hon.
baronet (Sir J. Young) would give them some hope of
reduction under this head. There was one item which
exhibited great unfairness towards Ireland. There were
grants for the payment of half the auditors' salaries and
half the schoolmasters' salaries for England ; and there
was also a grant for the medical attendance in this country
There were no such grants for Ireland; and he could not
see why there should be such a distinction between the two
countries.

Sir G. PECHELL said, having for a long time made
complaints with regard to the poor law administration, he
wished to say that he had viewed with great satisfaction
the administration of the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
Baines), and ha knew that a similar feeling prevailed
amongst those who had been most opposed to the new
poor law. He must say, however, that some parts of the
poor
rrieecsi t
of the
t h
anfonrseacpr
were l
no aw
less establishmentth too
iemboardl.argThe. erne we::
one secretary at 1,500/. a Peyteeaaar, another at 1,0001. another
at 1,203/. and another at 8001. These secretaries were all
for England ; and when a Lord of the Treasury wa
only 1,000/. a year, a Lord of the Admiraltylsolod
and that excellent officer, Sir 13. Walker, the Su"r
veyor of the Navy, only the same amount, he.
could not understand why such largo salaries should
be paid to the poor-law secretaries. (Hear, hear.) The
right hon. baronet (Sir J. Trollope), when he was at the
head of the poor-law department, proposed to do away
with some of the superfluities of the board ; and he hoped
he would now support him in the proposal to deduct 500/.
from this estimate. The hon. member concluded by
moving that the vote should be reduced from 210,9021.
to 210,402.
Mr. BAINES said as the hon. member complained of
the expense of the secretaries of the Poor Law Board, he
must recal to his recollection that before the Poor Law
Board was changed there were three commissioners, each
of whom received a salary of 2,0001. a year. In the place
of those commissioners there had been set up a president
and two secretaries, at an expense of 4,5001. a year; so
that, in fact, there was a saving of 1,5001. a year. In the
course of last year there was a very careful inquiry into
the whole establishment of the poor law board. The re-
sult of that inquiry had been laid before Parliament, and
would be found at page 193 of the report, with regard to
the public offices. The present estimate was formed in
accordance with the recommendations of the committee by
whom the inquiry was conducted. The committee scru-
tinised the salaries of the secretaries and of the whole
establishment ; and their deliberate recommendation was
implicitly followed. With regard to the clerks, it was
found that they were paid much less than their merits re-
quired that they should be, and less in proportion then the
clerks of other public departments. There was this pecu-
liarity in their case, that though many of them displayed
great zeal and ability in the public service, and had held
their offices for twenty or thirty years, they had no claim
to superannuation. There had been an increase in their
salaries, but it was not more than was warranted by the
circumstances. There was an increase also under the head
of travelling and incidental expenses of inspectors; but
that, too, was founded on the recommendation of the com-
mittee. He thought that if his hon. friend had read the
report to which ho had referred, he would not persevere
in his motion.

Sir J. TROLLOPE said when he held the office now so
well filled by his right hon. friend, ho thought it his duty
to call the attention of the Government to the condition of
the clerks. An inquiry was, in consequence, instituted,
and the result was the recommendation of the increase now
complained of. The establishment in England would cer-
tainly bear a favourable comparison with that in Ireland,
especially as in England the poor rates amounted to
6,000,0001., and in Ireland they did not exceed 800,0001.
He must say there was no department in which the public
service was conducted in a more efficient and economical
manner.

Mr. F. FRENCH was glad that attention had been called
to the waste in the Irish poor-law establishment.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS had great pleasure in bearing tes-
timony to the efficient manner in which the poor-law de-
partment was managed by the right hon. gentleman.
(Hear, hear.) When that right hon. gentleman first ac-
ceded to office, the poor-law had got into bad repute ; since
that time he had heard scarcely a single complaint. He
was very glad to find Irish members coming forward for
the first time as economists. (Hear.) It was impossible to
examine the figures without being struck with astonish-
ment. In England the expense was 35,700/. ; in Scotland,
3,800/. ; in Ireland, 40,700/. ; and this although the amount
to be managed was only one-eighth of the amount in Eng-
land.

Mr. BANES said no office could be filled with more
ability than that held by Lord Courtenay as permanent
secretary to the Poor Law Board.
Mr. MACARTNEY urged upon the Government the
necessity of appointing a commission to inquire into the
working of the Irish Poor Law with a view to effecting a
considerable reduction in its cost. The expense of the
poor-law in Ireland, comparatively speaking, far exceeded
that of the poor-law in England.
Sir J. YOUNG told the committee that it was unfair
to make a comparison between Ireland and England,
because in England the poor-law system had been long es-
tablished, and its working was well understood, while in
Ireland it was a novelty requiring a staff to carry it out
more numerous and expensive than the state of th coun-
try, or the number of unions would seem to justify at
first sight. Nevertheless, of late years great reduction had
been made in the poor law expenditure of Ireland, and,
from time to time, as it could be accomplished, still fur-
ther reductions would be made.

Mr. WHITESIDE reminded the committee that peti•
Lions were constantly pouring in from Ireland, imploring
Parliament to inquire into the whole system of the poor
law, and contended that it was monstrously absurd to
keep up an expensive staff contrary to the wishes and
opinions of the entire community of Ireland.
Mr. KIRK insisted that Ireland was too poor to bear
an expensive and cumbersome administration of its poor

Mr. HI ME had never hoard a stronger case for inquiry
made out than this, and since it should be the object of the
Government to deal with Ireland precisely iu the same
manner that they dealt with England, ho called upon
them to give a pledge that an inquiry should take place.
Sir J. GRAHAM begged the committee not to forget the
different circumstances attending the administration of the
poor law in the two countries. The poor law was forced
upon Ireland by Parliament against its will, and though
it bad since been found to work exceedingly well, it still
required that especial care should be taken in working it
out. At first the executive staff was extremely heavy, be•
cause of the novelty of the system in Ireland; but of late
years considerable reductions have been made in the ex•
penditure, and now his right hon. friend the Secretary for
Ireland, had given a pledge that still further reductions
should be made when it was possible to do so. Now to
his mind such a pledge as that given on behalf of the Go-
vernment ought to prove far more satisfactory to the com-
mittee than even the appointment of a commission of in-
quiry. A suggestion had been made that some of the
workhouses in Ireland should be closed ; but those who
entertained that opinion should remember that, though
Ireland was now in a state of prosperity, a change might
take place, when a return of adverse circumstances would.
render the existence of those workhouses absolutely ne.

cessary.
Sir B. HALL remarked that the increasing prosperity
of Ireland must be satisfactory alike to the committee and
the country. It appeared from the evidence given by all
the members from Ireland that pauperism was materially
diminishing there, and the condition of the peasantry ra-
pidly improving ; but, although that was so, he agreed
with the right hon. baronet the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty that it would be extremely unwise to shut up any of
the workhouses. The workhouses were a check upon.
Irish pauperism, and if they were closed and out-doer
relief again resorted to, we should have a repetition of the
scenes of destitution that were exhibited in Ireland some
yearsago.
Lord NAAS thought the Irish members ought to rest
satisfied with the assurance that had been given that fur-
ther reductions should take place, thoughhefor one bo
ge•
lieved it would not be inexpedient temporarily
some of the unoccupied workhouses.
After a few words.TNE yfromCapt.
complainedS c°BELL, the amendment
that there were many
walls
rw.imthlrcaAwit
charges in Ireland such as the cost of convicted criminals
werewhich t h
werer
olsm borneupon
thebtheeoncsooulnidties, while in England they
direct opposition to the
assurance
gfiuvnend.
bNy othwetlhataet
swiarsßin.
Peel when he repealed the corn laws, and repeated after-
wards by the Government when they extended the poor law
to Ireland. He certainly thought that this part of the sub-
ject ought to be inquired into.
Mr. objected so large a sum should_ be
suet':
bring foTrhsechool masters and schoolmistresses in Poor-law
schools in unions really did little more than
up a race of paupers. The number of pauper children
in England was at the present time 25,000. If these were
divided into batches of 500 each, and placed at the district
schools, he believed that the present vote would quite cover
the expense, and hefelt sure that the result would be very
beneficial. Three such schools were in operation near Lon-
don, and others in different parts of the country, and with
the happiest results.
Mr. BAINES thought the hon. gentleman would admit
that ho had given his co-operation in endeavouring to form
district schools. (Hear, hear.) He quite agreed with the
hon. gentleman in thinking that district schools were
highly satisfactory in their working, and he had never lost
any opportunity of doing anything in his power to induce
the guardians of Poor Law Unions, who were the parties
with whom the power really rested, to establish district
schools. He did not, however, agree with those who
found fault with union schools in the mans. Many of
these schools were exerting a high beneficial influence.
Mr. J. BALL thought that au additional rate would be
better than Parliamentary aids for schools. He Was
of
opinion that the whole matter ought to undergo revisie n.
With regard to the expenses of the poor law board
England and Ireland he begged to point
tljoulithatthexas-
tpheantseofi nt connexion nEenxig
loins
hw
poorith the a
w lrishbut
tpot,iilra
that
awd not
contrary
exceed
the fact. In England the expense was 50,000/., while in
Ireland it was but 40,0001. But it was also true that the
English and Irish systems were essentially different, and
properly so. To endeavour to alter the 'lrish system for
the sake of a few pounds would prove the dearest course in
the end.

Captain SCOBELL thought it his duty to point out to
thQ OQPIPaIqOI siTiDg k pod OCIWASCG t 9 RUM!

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children, the country was doing more for them than was
done for the children of hardworking independent
labourers.
After a few words from Mr. J. O'CONNELL and Colonel
DUNNE,
Sir J. SHELLEY thought that the number of poor-
law inspectors might be diminished. The working of the
law was well understood, and there was really no necessity
for inspection.
The vote was then agreed to.
Upon the vote of 82,2041. for the Mint, including
coinage.
Mr. HUME wished to have an explanation as to the
sum of 21,0001. and odd charged as deficiency in the vote
of last year; and also to know whether the colonial coin-
age was carried on at the Mint ?
Mr. WILSON said that the deficiency in the vote of
last year was caused by the unprecedented call which was
made for silver and copper coinage. With regard to the
other question of the hon. member, he had to state that
the coinage for the colonies was struck at the Mint.
Mr. HUME thought that the estimates ought to have
specified the amount of coinage struck during last year.
He hoped such a meagre account would not be furnished in
future.
The vote was then agreed to.
12,6911. for the salaries and expenses of persons employed
in the care and arrangement of the public records.
Mr. HUME would like to see all the records brought
together in one building. He should be glad to know
whether the fees demanded for consulting them were now
more reasonable than formerly ?
Mr. WILSON said that the collection of the records into
one place was under the consideration of the Government.
The fees had lately been reduced, and were now very rea-
sonable.
The vote was agreed to.
15,1151. for the expenses of the inspectors and sub-in-
spectors of factories, mines, etc.
Mr. HUME had always objected to the appointment of
these inspectors. The measure had been dictated by a
spurious philanthropy, and hail been productive of much
mischief. He trusted that they would bespeedily abolished.
The vote was agreed to.
1,7051. for the salaries of certain officers in Scotland and
other charges formerly paid from the hereditary revenue.
Mr. W.WILLIAMS wished to know whether the sala-
ries of certain persons in this vote, such as the Queen's
limner; clockmriker, historiographer, were to be perpetual,
or were to cease at the death of the present holders of these
offices? He objected strongly to the votes for the Queen's
Plate to be run for at Edinburgh, the Caledonian Hunt
Plate, and the Royal Company of Archers' Plate, in all
amounting to 2171. Of course her Majesty might bestow
her gifts as she chose, but he objected to the public money
being spent for an immoral purpose, as he considered racing
to be, anti ho should move that these items bo struck out.
Mr HUME also objected to these race cups, but he must
also object to a much larger sum, namely, 1,0901., the salary
and expenses of the secretary to her Majesty's printer.
That functionary had been appointed to revise every edi-
tion of the Bible, Testament, Psalm-book, and Short Cate-
chism; but he had been found to be quite useless. The
arrangement was only meant as a temporary one, when the
Bible monopoly was abolished, By that measure Bibles
had been cheapene 100, and in some cases 200 per cent.,
and he trusted it would bo extended to England. (Hear.)
Mr. WILSON did not think 1,000/. too much to pay for
an arrangement which had been found to be productive of
so much good. At the same time the Government would
make enquiry into the matter. As for the race cups, they
amounted to an exceedingly small sum, and had long been
paid cut of the hereditary revenues of the crown.
The committee divided on the amendment—
Ayes 43
Noes 65-25
The amendment, was therefore lost, and the original vote
was then agreed to.
6,28.3. for the salaries of the officers and attendants of
the household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS also objected to a charge of 1,5741.
for plates iu this vote, but he would not divide upon it.
He had drawn attention on the previous night to the high
sounding titles of the officers connected with this mock
royalty. The Lord Lieutenant's household was actually on
the same scale as the Queen's, although he bore to her
Majesty about the proportion that a rushlight bore to the
sun. tLaughter.) He should be glad if some hon. mem-
ber for Ireland would tell him—for he did not think the
Irish Secretary could—what were the functions of the
" two gentlemen-at-largo " who were charged at 128% 18s.
Bd. (Langliter.)
Sir J. YOUNG said that this was the name given to two
gentlemen who attended the Lord-Lieutenant ou State
occasions.
Mr. I'ETO wished to ask the Government whether the
viceregal establishment was intended to be continued?
Mr. WILSON said that two years since the Government
of the day did propose to abolish it ; but it was found, after
the recess, that there was an all but unanimous feeling
amongst the Irish members against such a step, and the
design was abandoned. The present Government had no
intention to take a different course.
Mr. HUME said the only question was, what would be
the best for Ireland? For his own part, he thought that if
Szotland had hail such a pageant she never would have
made the progress she had done. There were some of his
countrymen said to talk of the injuries of Scotland, and of
establishing; a viceregal court at Edinburgh, but such men
could have reflected little on what the consequences would
be. It was his belief that if the plan of Mr. Pitt had been
carried out, and the Irish lord-lientenancy had been abo-
lished in 1800 Ireland would now have been the most pros-
perous part of the United Kingdom. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel DUNNE said that, whatever might have been
the feeling of Irishmen during the viceroyalty of Lord
Clarendon, none of them would now wish, after the ad-
ministration of Lord Eglinton, to see the establishment
abolished. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PELLATT objected to the items of 1821. 12s. Ba.
and 411. 10s. for the chaplain and the reading clerk in the
chapel at the castle.
Mr. VANCE defended the items on the ground that the,
chapel was frequented by great numbers of the publics
Dublin, at all events, was a Protestant city, as was shown
by the members it returned. (Laughter.)
After few words from Mr. CHEETEIAH,
Mr. HUME said he was prepsred to vote against the.
grant to the Lord Lieutenant altogether.
Mr. MI ALL did not think this a good opportunity fov
takiug the sense of the house on the religious question.
Mr. PELLATT consented to withdraw his amendment,.
Captain SCOIJELL said ho could not allow the vote
pass without protesting against the item for horse-racing.
He had no objection to horse-racing itself, but he did not
wish it to be paid for out of the public money. This was a
time . when ail such items as this should be weeded out of ,
the national expenditure. There was enough to do with
our horses without encouraging racing. He therefore
moved that the vote should be reduced by 1,5741.
Mr. HENCHY supported the vote, on the ground that i
racing encouraged the breed of horses.
Colonel PEEL reminded the committee that racehorses, t
paid a much higher duty than other horses.
After a few words from Mr. WYSE,
Sir R. PRICE said that there never was a lord haute,-
nfincy more ably conducted, under more difficult cirean
stances, than- that of Lord Clarendon. (Hear, hear.) Fle
had carried the country safely through the greatest di
tfi-
culties ; and ho had regretted to hear the remarks of C< do-
nel Dunne in reference to different noblemen.
Colonel DUNNE said he had great respect for Lord
Clarendon's talent ; but of the conduct of the Government
of which the noble lord was the organ in Ireland he totally
disapproved. They had treated as a rebellion that which.
was nothing more than a contemptible outbreak. (Oh.)
Of Lord Eglinton's administration in Ireland all parties
united in speaking in praise.
Mr. CROSSLEY hoped the hon. member who had moved
the amendment would divide on it. The breed of horses
needed for the cavalry was far different from that of race-
horses; the former required more blood and stamina.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS objected to these grants being
called " Queen's Plates ;" they ought to be described as
"plates paid for out of the national taxes, for the encon-
ragemeut of horse-racing."
Colonel DUNNE asked what the Government intended
to do with a fund now existing, arising from fines ?
Sir J. YOUNG said the subject was under considera-
tion. He hoped that a better method would soon be des
wised by paying the clerks of petty sessions.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote, 6,7041.' for the expenses connected with
the office of Paymaster of the Civil Service in. Ireland, was
agreed to after a few words from Mr. FRENCH.
The next vote was 24,2181. for the Board of Public:
Works, Ireland.
Colonel DUNNE complained that great injury had been
done to landed proprietors in Ireland by commencing
works which had never been finished, and said he hoped
the report of the commissioners who were appointed to in.
spect the works would be laid on the table.
Mr. WILSON said the way in which this question hail
been dealt with by the Government had exhibited at all
events an earnest desire to do full justice to the landlords
of Ireland, who had been aggrieved by the way in whi cb,
theme works had been carried on. They hitt year receives'
the report of the commissioners, in consequence of whi
arrangements were made for a large remission of the
amounts charged fur the works, and they were taking
means for winding up the works as soon as possible.
After some farther conversation the vote was agreei4 to.
. • The next vote, 32,00 •1., for secret service money, p essed
without remark.
The isext vote was 255,5601., for stationery, pfinting,
and binding.
Colonel DUNNE asked what local authorities ;hey were
to appeal to, in C. 189 of overcharge of the income tax, and also what
Committee
allowances wouldbe made to collectors ?
then divided.
Forthe amendment
Against it
.. t
The votewastlar:ala'gr—ee-d-t-o*: ''''''''''''''''''''
- • 85-34
6,1441., salaries
tary of Ireland, expenses of the office of Chief Seers-
Mr. W. WILLIAMS congratulated the committee on
there being a reduction of nearly Re
had never in the salary of
the chief secretary.
:any gentleman
discharge the duties of that officer wthwngreater efficiency
than the hon. baronet who at present bald it. (Hear.)
•In answer to Mr. MACARTNEY,
Sir J. YOUNG stated thathe had done aliten his power
to carry out the recommendations of the
col
with reference to the reduction of salaries. In thelissioners
32
ment of the Audit-office, they had, however, fallena9art-
into
mistake ; for it would be impossible to
transact the
business with a smaller number of clerks. -
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER „tube
was
at a loss to conceive what relation there was between that
subject and the vote for the expense of printing and sta-
tionery. If the hon. and gallant colonel would move for
a return of those allowances, they would be laid on the
table. With regard to the question of appeals, he thought
he had made it understood that, in consequence of the ap-
peals in Ireland having
been so much fewer than was an-
ticipated, there was no justification for maintaining in
Ireland a separate commission, and consequently
inLoanlldoan.
ap-
peals would come direct to the commissioners
Mr. HUME observed that the amount ofprinHsetieneganedf
stationery for the House of Lords and for the
Commons, ought to be placed under different heads. With
regard to the gazettes they were by Act of Parliament the
papers in which the notices of every kind were to appear,
but he did not think that the charges for advertisements
should he as high as they were. He did not wish that the
public should less money, but he found that a profit of
8,4001. a year was made by the London Gazette, G 771., by
the Edinburgh Gazette, and 7811., by the Dublin Gazette.
He thought the advertisements should be printed at the
lowest possible cost, and as far as his inquiries extended
T onifiazette would answer for all purposes.
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed
in the' spirit of the remarks of the hon. gentleman.
The charges for insertions in the London Gazette had been
considerably reduced already, and he considered that a
fuetherreduction might be thought of, if it was the opi-
' • aiet,t, kof the house, as it was the opinion of his hon. friend,
esseisekawa`e'as own opinion, and the opinion of the Secretary
Apf tail; reasury, that the three Gazettes ought to be console:
' 'dated ;lint it was only just to the Treasury to mention that
• a vigorous effort had been made by his hon. friend lad
session to get the Edinburgh Gazette consolidated with the
&nom 0140, but local and national feelings Pro* too 1

strong for his hon. friend, and he was obliged to retreat,
utterly and ignominiously defeated. (Laughter.) A most
material saving had been made in the stationery and print-
ing department., and they should never mention this sub-
ject in the house without stating that the greatest credit
was due to Mr. M'Culloch for his exertions in this respect.
He thought that a return of the terms of the printin , for
the public offices and for the two houses of Parliament
would surprise even his hon. friend. It was desirable that
they should distinguish between the printing and sta-
tionery for the two houses of Parliament.
Mr. CRAUFURD complained of the delay in getting
the reports printed. The report of the Statute Law Com-
mission had not yet been delivered. He understood that
was owing to some difference on the subject between the
Queen's printer and the printer of the House of Commons;
but whatever was the cause, they were debarred fora long
time from knowing the advantages which had arisen from
sub-
jectimwthhaZthweasrepproertsenotnedthteoth,,
the appointment opfesorttmhnepelcraosihmniedmp,
irof CthOeLlLawLEoßi
house before the Easter recess, was not yet in tha hands of
members.___

—Sir J. SHELLEY wished to know why the printing ex-
penses of the Board of Works were 1,0701., whilst those of
the Office of Woods were but 5001., and those of the Home-
office, but 745/,

Mr. WIL SON was unable, in the absence of his right
hon. friend, to state the details cf expenditure.
Mr. M`MAHON complained that acts of Parliament
were to be had from private printers for less than was
charged by the Queen's printer. (Hear, hear.) It was
desirable that the price of acts of Parliament should be
reduced to the lowest sum. (Hear.)
Mr. HIDIE agreed with the hon. gentleman in thinking
that acts of Parliament should be sold at the lowest rate.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 68,600/. for the expenses of the Privy
Councit-office, which had been postponed from the previous
evening, as it was thought desirable that the house should
be furnished with further information regarding the in-
crease of the salary of the clerk of the council from 2,0001.
to 2,5001.,
Mr. WILSON said that in making further inquiry, he
found that the statement he made on the previous evening
from recollection was substantially correct. The present
clerk of the council was appointed under patent in 1801.
The salary was regulated in 1808, and lie succeeded to the
office in 1821. Ho was first paid by fees which amounted
to a large sum. But an order in Council was made, fixing
the salary at 2,0301. a year, but raising it to 2,5001., when
held for three years. The order in council also required
that the 5001. should be subject to deduction, where the
party held any other place or appointment under the Crown.
When Mr. Grevillo succeeded to the office in 1821, he re-
ceived 2,0001. a year, and, having hold it for three years,
he received 2,5001. from 1821 to 1829, when be received
another patent office in Jamaica. The salary was then re-
duced to 2,000/. ; but last year, Mr. Greville having vo-
luntarily resigned his Jamaica ffice, he put in a claim for
the increased salary of 2,5001. The claim was considered,
and the conclusion come to was that as Mr. Greville's
salary was fixed by order in council they could not object
to his claim.

In reply to Mr. O'BRIEN,
Mr. WILSON said that the Jamaica office was abo-
lifthed. No compensation was given.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the doctrine that the house
had no power to oppose the vote because it was regulated
lyy older in council. He hoped the house would refuse
ale vote on this occasion. He thought that the vote ought
to be resisted, which the house had power to do.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was quite
arse the hon. gentleman would believe that the Treasury,
could not wilfully, and with its eyes open, make an ex-
ti:avagant proposal to the house, and the hon. gentleman
would be the last mau to decline to act on the rigid and
so :rupulous rules of good faith by which the house was
always bound. It was not the case that this gentleman
h ad for a long time received a salary of 2,0001. a year, which
-97 as not raised to 2,5001., but Mn Greville had been ap-
pointed under an order in council of 1835, and though it
might be argued that it did not bind Parliament to con-
tenue his office for life, yet Parliament had uniformly
Chosen to be bound in cases where vested interests were
c seated, and the order in council according to the prin.
iples which the house had adopted, had given Mr.
fireville a permanent interest in the office which it
had conferred upon him That office was accom-
panied by a salary, which was to be at the rate
.of 2,0001. a year for three years, and 2,5001. afterwards
for life, but with an exceptional provision that if he
held any other office, a portion of his salary of 2,5001
1 would be abated, but on the termination of the tenure of
that office the salary would remain at 2,5001. There was a
positive title on Mr. Greville to that which had been con-
.ferred on him by the order in council, and he (Mr. Glad-
! stone) was informed that he might, even by judicial pro-
' cess, compel the payment of the salary by the Treasury. If
there was any grievance, it was on the part of Jamaica,
which had to bear sinecure offices created in this country,
which were held by gentlemen who never saw the island,
and he believed that the house would be ready to go any
length to cure such abuses.
Mr. KINNAIR I) said that as he had opposed the vote
last night, he was bound to say that the explanations of
Mr. Gladstane and Mr. Wilson were satisfactory, and tha
it would be only just to adhere to an honourable engage-
ment like this.

Mr. HUME, while he did not agree that the house had
not the power to deal with the vote, said that it was only
consistent with good faith.
The vote was agreed to.
17,079/. for sheriffs' expenses, officers of the Court of
-Exchequer, &c., and 8,4151. for the Insolvent Debtors'
Court, were agreed to after a short discussion.
The next vote was 92,435/. for criminal prosecutions and
other law charges, Scotland, and was agreed to.
On the vote of 55,4701. for criminal prosecutions and law
charges in Ireland,
Mr. M.`II.A.HON complained that the system which
prevailed in this country with regard to the expense of
criminal prosecutions was not adopted in reference to
1 Ireland.

Colonel DUNNE also objected to the practice of making
prosecutors pay their own expenses, instead of leaving
them to be defrayed out of the consolidated fund, as was
the case with regard to such expenses in England.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that if
the argument in support of the objection were pushed to
the farthest extent, it would not be very favourable to the
pecuniary interests of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) It would
then be impossible for Parliament to confine its-view to
the expense of criminal prosecutions. About 550,000/.
-.vas paid out of the consolidated fund for the expense of
the Irish constabulary force—(hear. hear)—and if the two
countries were placed on the same tooting in that respect,
Ireland would be a considerable loser by the change.
(Hear, hear.) _ _

Colonel D CIIsTNE said the payment of the expense of the
constabulary had been put forward as a set-off for twenty,
different things • it could not be made to stand for every-
thing. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MAC -__RTNEY said Ireland might fairly rest its
case on the promise of Sir R. Peel in 1846.
After some further conversation, in which Mr. T. Cham-
bers, Mr. Serjeant Shee, Lord Bernard, Mr. Whiteside,
and Mr. M'Mahon took part, the vote was agreed to, as was
another of 27,0001. for the expense of the üblin police.
The Chairman then reported progress, and the committee
was ordered to sit again on Monday.
Mr. WILSON said the Stamp Duties Bill would he taken
first on Monday, and afterwards the estimates would be
continued.

The report of the resolutions passed in committee of
supply on the previous evening was then brought up and
ag,roed to.

COMMON LA.W PROCEDURE BILL.

On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. WHITESIDE said it was an excellent bill, and he
hoped it would be extended to Ireland. It would enable
parties tQ try causes in the superior courts without the aid
of a jury, and he would suggest that it should also enable
chosea in action to be assignable at law.
ATHERTON and Mr. S. WORTLEY approved of the
principle of the bill, but trusted ample time would be af.
fore.ed for discussing its details.
The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Thursday next.
BILLS OF EXCHANGE BILL.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the second read-
ing of the bill, and explained that its object was to estah-
li.sh the Scotch system in England, whereby a bill of ex-
change was treated as a judgment at law, but at the same
time the party accepting the bill Would have power, with-
in six days after noting, to go before one of the courts to
contest the validity of the bill and insist upon having it
tried by an issue at law.
Mr. J. C. GLYN said the bill met with tho cordial ap-
proval of the mercantile cla,ses, but they complained of
thin piecemeal amendment of the commercial law.
Mr. LOCKHART suggested amendments to be made in
committee.

21r. CAIRNS had only one objection to the bill, and
that was that it did not go far enough ; it should be made
to extend to Ireland.

Mr. ATHERTON complained that the bill reversed the
rule of law which threw the onus probandi upon the party
making the claim ; but still, as it met with the approval of
the mercantile community, he would not oppose the second
reading.
Mr. CRAUFURD was satisfied the effect of the bill
wouldbe highly beneficial to society, as it would make par-
tieo more cautious in accepting bills of exchange and other
negotiable instruments.
Mr. KIRK, as an Irish merchant, hoped the bill would
be extended to the sister kingdom.
Mr. S. WORTLEY thought that some provisions might
be added to the bill to meet the evil of bill discounting.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought the bill ought
to be extended to Ireland.
The bill was then read a second time.
METROPOLITAN DISTRICTS.

Sir B. HALL moved for an address for returns from
each parish and extra-parochial place within the city of
Westminster, and the several Parliamentary boroughs of
Marylebone, Finsbury, Tower Hamlets, Lambeth, South-
wark, and Greenwich, setting forth:—I.—The population
of such parish. ll.—The rateable value. 111.-1. In
what manner the vestry of such parish is constituted ; 2.
If by any local act or acts to state such act or acts, with
dates thereof; 3. If a select or appointed vestry by whom
elected ; 4. The number of vestrymen ; 5. General periods
of meeting. nr . —l. Whether the vestry have the ma-
nagement of the poor ; 2. If not, by whom are the guar-
dians elected ; 3. Under what acts ; 4. Whether parish is
a single parish or in union; 5. If part of a union, to what
union does it belong. V.-1. Under whose jurisdiction
the paving, cleansing, and lighting, is; 2. If by a board
separate from the vestry, to state under what acts ap-
meeting.
potntfd ; 3. The mode of election ; 4. Number of such
trustees, or othereise
board ;5. Their duration in office ;6. General periods of
grounds, or otherwisematters,otherwise, to state the act or acts constituting
such board, fur w
mentary borough to cityl)
purpose appointed, and the mode of
of Westminster and each Parlia-
return from the parishes gin',
Kid-
brook, 'and from each of the parishes
ot the
Westminster,e ity oef
separately.) And, similar
I andth am , Lee,places
(noti d -
London
or the Parliamen-
tibaliereiyaregboofa'raupthgaehriss)hemitiyeantioned in Schedule
otherto the Act of the
if any (except as excepted), included LondoniPnatrliasehesand
15 and 16 Vie., c. 85, and from all
relief to beg rouped together, so far as the •Or poor
places,weekly tables of mortality. (parishes in
union f
y are included
in this return). .

CONVICT PRISONS (IRELAND).
Sir J. YOUNG moved for leave to bring in a bill for
the formation and regulation of convict prisons in Ireland.
The object of the bill was to provide means whereby the
Irish convicts might be employed in certain industrial
occupations.
Lord NAAS asked whether the right hon. gentleman
meant to bring in a bill for the purposes of regulating
county prisons ?
Sir J. YOUNG said that he had such h hill prepared,
but in the present state of the session he did not feel in-
alined to bring it in.
The house adjourned M 10 minutes to one o'olook.

THEATRE fIOYAL DRURY LANE.
Lessee, Mr. E. T. Smith.
EVENING, Juxx 10,
he performed LUCIA DI L %.,43{ERMOOR. Lucia, Mdlle.
Agnes Bury; Alice, Madame Ilencirich ; Raymond, Signor Arnoldi :
Lord Arthur, signor Sand ; Norman, Signor Castetli ; Lord Henry
Ashton, Mr. Weiss; and Edgardo, Mr. Sims Reeves.
Followed by the new BALLET DI VERTISSE3IENT, entitled
UNE FETE EN OLYMPE.
Pr ceq—Stalls, 7s; Dress Circle, 55.; Boxes, 3s ; Pit, 2s. ; Gallery,
Is.; and Private Boxes. One, Two, Three and Four Guineas. The
Box-office open daily from Ten till Six, where places may be
secured. Private Boxes and Stalls to be had of Messrs. Leader and
Coal, 63, New Bond-streot.

THE ITRE ROYAL HAYMARKET.
Under the management of Mr. Itnekatone.
THIS EVENING, DONE 10.

Will he performed the Drama of THE KNIGHTS OF THE
ROUND TABLE. Characters, by Messrs. Chippendale, Howe, G.
Vandenhoff, W. Farren, Compton, and Buckstone ; Mi.ss Reynolds,
Miss E. Grey, and Mrs. Fitawilliam.
4 fter waich, the entirely new an.l original extravaganza, entitled
MR. BUCKSTONE'S VOYAGE ROUND THE GLOBE (IN LEI-
C?.STEIt•SQUARE), written by J. It. Planche, Esq.

'LOYAL PRINCESS'S THEATRE, OXFORD-STREET.
Under the Management of Mr. Cluatza KRAL
Tali EVENING. Jusat 10,
Will be performed FROM VILLAGE TO COURT. Principal
characters by Messrs. Harley, Fisher, and Cathcart; Misses Mur-
ray, Heath, and Vivash.
Followed by FAUST AND MARGUERITE. Characters by
Vex-we. C. Kean and David Fisher ; Mrs. Winstanley and Miss C.
Leciercq.
To conclude with A STORM IN A TEA-CUP. Principal cha-
rv.ters by Mr. and Mrs. W. Lacy.