The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-05 00:00:00

stablished church, insisted upon the learning of the
catechism and the attendance at church, to which, the
Disseisiers conscientiously objected ; on the: Other Wand) the
Dissaters,-forced as it were into opposition on this subject,
united in great bodies for the purposes of education, and
formed schools entirely on their own principles, and were
therefore organised in a manner that enabled them to
bring great power to bear against any plan of education of
which those societies, chiefly composed of Dissenters, did
not approve. (Hear, hear.) The edueation, however,
which was carried on by these two societies produced a
great number of schools all over the country, and a great
increase of the means of education. About 1831 or 1832
it was proposed, for the first time, to the House of Com-
mons by the Government of Lord Grey, that the State
should aid in the education of the poorer classes • and at
the same time it was proposed that a sum of 10,0001. should
be given to each of these two societies for the purpose of
aiding them in their efforts. This plan continued till
1839. The Treasury conducted the aid which they gave
according to the rules which, as a board, it was incumbent
on them to adopt. They gave grants according to the
amount of the sums voluntarily subscribed, and they dis-
tributed their grants in the proportion of those gams: but
they took no note or regard of the kind of education given,
In 1839 Lord Melbourne's Government proposed a change
of the system. They proposed that a Committee of Coun-
cil should be formed, which Committee of Council should
take a more enlarged and a more discriminating view of
the business of education. Holding the office of Home
Secretary at the time I wrote a letter to Lord Lansdowne,
whieii letter, with the answer, was laid before Parliament
as the grounds of the proceeding that was then taken by
the Government. It was intimated in that letter, by the
command of Her Majesty that it was the wish of the
Queen that the youth of this kingdom should be religiously
brought up, and that at the same time the rights of con-
science should be respected. (Hear.) Among the proposals
for encouraging the means of education, and furthering
this great object there was one to found a normal or train-
ing school, in which persons of different religious per-
suasions should be educated, while at the same time there
should be a chaplain of the Church of England to in-
struct those who belonged to that church. This pro-
posal excited great apprehension and alarm, and after much
threatened opposition it was withdrawn by the Govern-
. went ; but the proposal to obtain a grant to be placed for
distribution it the hands of the Committee of Council was
persevered in, and by a narrow majority sanctioned by the
House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) In 1846 a further step
was taken of very considerable importance. That step was
an endeavour to improve, to a very, great degree, the
quality of the education that was given. (Hear, hear.)
In stating in 1839 the views which the Government took
of education, I declared my opinion that the main object
to be had in view was to improve the character, the know-
ledge, and the condition of the schoolmaster—that, as the
schoolmaster is, so is the school, and that, unless we im-
prove his character and condition, we could hope for no
great improvement of education for the poorer classes.
(Hear,) The minutes agreed to in 1846 were afterward&
the foundation of grants proposed to this house and carried
into effect. I am not aware that since that time any great
change has taken place with reference to this subject.
The house will thus perceive that the education of the
poorer classes in this country has been conducted, generally
speaking, by the voluntary efforts of great religious bodies,
while, at the same time, they have had assistance from the
State, partly to increase the quantity, but chieflY, and es-
pecially, to improve the quality of the education • though
the State—and a review of the history of particular grants
will prove the fact—has not interfered materially with the
nature of the instruction given. Great improvements have
been made—indeed, I nay say, a great revolution has taken
place—in the instruction given since the commencement of
the schools under Lancaster and Bell ; but it has been ef-
fected at the suggestion of the different societies which
manage education for the bodies with which they are con-
nected, and by the managers of particular schools, who
have individually introduced improvements in the system.
What I wish to call the attention of the house to, how-
ever, is the point at which we have arrived with respect
to the education of the country generally what it
is in amount and in character. To this, then, I
invite the consideration of the house before proceeding to
state what further steps we may be able to take. I re-
ceived only yesterday from the Registrar-General a state-
ment relative to the number of schools in this country, and
of persons receiving education in them. The number of
public day schools existing on the 31st of March, 1851, at
the taking of the census, was 15,473 ' • the number of per-
sons belonging to the schools, or on the school books, was
—males 791,548, females 616,021 ; attending at the schools
on the 31st of March—males 635,107, females 480,130.
The number of private day schools existing on the 31st of
March, 1851, was 29,425 ; the number of persons. belonging
to the schools on the school books was—males 347,694,
females 353,210 • attending at the schools on the 31st of
March—males 317,390, females 322,349. The proportion
of scholars .on the books to the population was equal to
11.76 'per cent., or 1 scholar to 84 persons ; the propertion
of scholars in attendance to scholars on the books was
equal to 83 1-sth per cent. I will now state from a dif-
ferent source what I believe to be a very accurate estimate
of the number of boys and girls belonging to the schools of
the before-mentioned societies. The house will find it less
than the number I have already given, which may be ac-
counted for partly from the circumstance of there being a
number of schools unconnected with any society, and
partly from the account being mode up previously to 1851,
which allows for subsequent increase. The number of
scholars in 1847 was— Church schools, 955,865 ; British
and Foreign schools, 225,000 ; Wesleyan, 38,623 ; Congre-
gitional, 6,839; Roman Catholic, 34,750 ; Ragged schools,
20,000 ; total, 1,211,077. Number of schools—Church of
England, 17,015; British and Foreign,, 1,500; Wesleyan,
397 ; Congregational, 89 ; Roman Catholic, 585 ; Ragged
schools. 270 ; total, 19,856. The income of these schools
in 1847 stood thus :—Church of England schools, 817,081/. ;
British and Foreign schools, 161,250/. ; Wesleyan,
27,347/. ; Congregational, 4,901/. ; Roman Catholic,
16,000/. ; Ragged schools, 20,000/. ; total, 1,046,879/. I
think I shall be rather under than over the mark if I add
50,000/. for all other schools; and this makes the amount
provided for the maintenance of those schools about
1,100,000/. The sources of income are as follow :—local
endowments, 69,537/. ; local subscriptions, 366,823/. ; local
collections, 114,109/. ; school pence, 413,044/. ; other
sources, 83,0761. - private supporters, 54,000/. There is
one sum to which I am particularly desirous of calling the
attention of the house—l allude to the item of 413,0001.
derived from the school pence. I hive no doubt the sum
here given is below the actual amount, and that we should
not err in excess if we were to set down 500,000/., or half
a million, as the sum actually contributed in school pence.
Now, recollecting that half a century ago there were none
but Sunday schools which could be called public schools
for the poor, the result of these efforts is striking, and like-
wise satisfactory. (Hear, hear.) That the people of this
country, and, above all, the working and poorer classes,
should contribute half a million a year to defray the ex-
pense of the instruction of their children the house cannot
fail as to consider a most gratifying circumstance. (Hear,
hear.) I confess it induces me to think that we ought to
• direct our efforts rather to strengthen and improve the
system of education which has grown up chiefly from vo-
luntary efforts, thin to attempt to set up anything in its
place which, while disturbing the existing system, might
fail to supply an equal amount of money for the education
of the poor. (Hear, hear.) At the same time, we are
bound to bear in mind that, although large sums are pro-
vided for this instruction, and a great number of persons
partake of it, it is, in great part, defective and inadequate,
and it becomes us to Consider whether, without disturbing
the existing system, we may not do much to improve it..
I will now state to the house what has occurred, chiefly
under the minutes of 1846, but partly before those minutes
were issued. I have already stated to the house that the
plan which was in the contemplation of the Government in
1839, of having one training school ..under State direction
and control, did not meet with public favour, and was not.
persevered in ; but that, instead thereof, a large number
of training schools were established in different parts of the
country, of which the greater part belonged to the church,
and the others to various Dissenting congregations.
These schools have proved to be of the greatest value
and utility—indeed, it is impossible to deny what is stated
by one of the most intelligent inspectors appointed
by the *vernment—namely, that the dispersion of
pupil-teachers to various training sehools throughout the
country, to which funds are apportioned under the mi-
nutes of Council, is productive of more beneficial results
than could have been obtained from bringing them toge-
ther into two or three large schools appropriated to their
education as schoolmasters. The plan now in force isthis :
—A boy or girl, as the case may be, who shows intelli-
gence and capacity for teaching is retained as a pupil,
teacher in the elementary school for five years. During
this time the pupil-teacher receives, under the authority
of the Committee of Council, out of the grants made by
this house, a salary beginning at 10/., and rising to 20/.
before he leaves the school. He is then admitted into a
training school or college, as some are called, where he
becomes a Queen's scholar, and receives from 20/, to 25/.
the first year, 25/. in the second, and 30/. in the third.
There the pupil-teacher receives an education to fit him
for a schoolmaster. For this purpose he not only receives
the best instruction from the masters and conductors of
the schools, but has an opportunity of showing, practically,
his capacity for teaching. In this way a large number of
persons are educated specially and properly for filling the
office of schoolmaster—an office which I, long ago, declared
in this house was not held in sufficient estimation, but
-which is now rising in just estimation, and which is cer-
tainly one of the most important that any person can fill
in this country. (Hear, hear.) I think it an advantage
that these pupil-teachers are dispersed over the country—
some springing from the middle order—some belonging to
the working classes, who aro proud, and justly proud, of
seeing that their children, by dint of intelligence, by dint
of quickness in learning, and also by reason of religious
and moral conduct, have a chance of obtaining from the
masters of the training colleges and , the inspectors ap-
pointed by the Government honourable testimony to their
fitness for the office of teacher. (Hear, hear.) • Since 1844
the outlay upon training school has been 353,402/. and
the grants 137,623/. The income of 21 training schools
in 1851 was 44,000/. to which must be added the annual
grants, amounting to 4,334/. Up to 1851 the number
of training schools established was, I believe, 40 ; but
the number has been much increased since, as well as
of the persons educated as pupil-teachers. In 1852
the total expenditure on these schools under the
minutes of the Committee of Council, was—for
augmentation of teachers' salaries, 16,9751. ; for sti-
pends of ppil-teachers and gratuities to schoolmasters
for their instruction, 79,587/. ; towards the building of
training schools, 15,996/. ; for the support of training
schools, 17,5451.—making a total of 130,1031. In this way,
great good may be achieved, and the result of this expen-
diture is immediately to raise the character and position
of the schoolmaster. (Hear.) The inspectors appointed
by the Government bear the strongest testimony to the
value of these schools. I will not weary the house with
quotations from the reports of these gentlemen, but will
content myself with stating that Mr. Moseley, one of the
most distinguished of them, bears the warmest testimony
in favour of the training schools, in which he is supported
by all his colleagues. Only to-day I read 'the testimony
given by the principal of the training school at Chelten-
ham, in which this gentleman states that he has watched
the progress of the system for two years, and hears willing
evidence in favour of the advantages resulting from it. An
examination is likewise carried on under the direction of
the Committee of Council, both of those who have been
ar.o those who desire to become schoolmasters, and to whom
if approved, certificates are granted. About 1,900 men
and 900 women have obtained certificates of merit. A
portion of these are now exercising the duties of teachers
hut 4 should say that about 2,700 of those who have re,.
ceived certificates of merit continue to teach. I now come
to a question which has been discussed with groat ability,
and which has excited great interest throughout the court:
try -
-namely, what shall be done.with this system ? Shall
continue to add to its efficacy -by augmenting the
we
amount of aid given by the State ? Shall we abandonof
altogether ? Shall we adopt another system in
place
•
I will dispose of the last two queriesbefore proceeding to
explain the proposition which it is my duty to submit to
the house. It is urged by some persons of considerable
talent that the State ought not to interfere at all in the

religious and moral training of the people of this country, '
but that this matter ought to be left entirely to the volun-
tary efforts of those who choose to undertake the task. I
can never subscribe to the reasoning by which this position
is supported. I never can admit that any principle or any
scruple should prevent the State from assisting in the reli-
gious and moral training of the people, when it is obviously
the great duty of the State to preserve peace and to enforce
the observance of the rules of morality. (Hear, hear.)
Take the case of a young man cast into gaol for some act
of theft. He is told by the gaoler that he has offended
against the laws of the country : he is told by the chaplain
of the prison that he has offended against the laws of God.
Should he ask why he had not been instructed before with
respect to these matters, would it be a sufficient answer to
that young man to say, " The State has power to punish—
it can commit you to prison, and even give you religious
instruction while there ; but there is some principle or
scruple which prevents it at ,any previous period from
giving you the means of avoiding the punishment you suffer ?"
But that question was agitated very fully, I think, in 1847,
and the house decided by a very considerable majority in
favour of the aid which was then sought by the Govern-
ment-for the purpose of promoting education. Since that
time it'has not appeared to me that the opinion of this
House has been changed, and it certainly does not appear
that the country agree with those who support what is
called the voluntary system. (Hear, hear.) Various reli-
gious communions—for instance, the Established Church,
the Wesleyans, the Roman Catholics, and the British and.
Foreign School Society, comprising in the schools in con-
nexion with it many of the various denominations of Dis-
senters—have received the aid which was given them under
the minutes of the Committee of Council. There are other
parties, indeed, belonging to the same denominations as
those who receive the aid, especially the Baptists and Con-
gregationalists-, who refuse the aid and maintain the vo-
luntary
comparedt ypnewtiptlhe.
tlhteieseeuveitdryentg,enheorellwevy7 that these latter,
a
form rather an in-
considerable minority, and therefore it cannot be expected
that this House would so far change its course as to lean to
the arguments used in support of the voluntary system.
But there is another system which has been proposed for
adoption, and which has been put forth as a system which
ought to influence the State in its decisions on this subject
—I mean the proposal for the establishment of what are
called secular schools. Now, I do not wish to misrepresent
the arguments which are employed upon this subject, and
I will endeavour to state as fairly as I can the views put
forth by those who are the advocates of this system. If I
should be so unfortunate as not to have comprehended the
system, I have no doubt there are many present who will
set me right, and place before this house the arguments in
favour of the plan they contend for. What I understand
to be said in support of this system is this :—The country
is divided into various religious communions, flittering
greatly from one another, and it has been impossible, by.
any scheme hitherto suggested, to bring the children of
persons belonging to these different communions into one
school, and induce 'them to accept of religious instruction
there ; but it would be very possible to give them secular
instruction—instruction in reading, writing, geography,
arithmetic, science, and art—and to leave the question of
religious instruction to the ministers and pastors of the
different communions, and thus, by treating religion as a-
thin.. apart from the school, would be avoided the expense,
difficulty, and discord which are created byhaving so many
schools. Now, if that be the proposal, there seem to me
to be difficulties sufficiently great to prevent the adoption of
such a system. We must consider, surely, when we are assist-
ing in the education of children, and especially in the edu-
cation 'of the children of the poor of this country, that the
school is the place where they are to learn the rules for
their conduct in life,—those rules of religion and morality
by which they are in future to be regulated. Such
being the case, it is obvious that, according to this plan of
secular instruction, there would Eqpt be sufficient time or
opportunity allowed for the clergy of the church of Eng-
land or the ministers of _other denominations to instruct the
children in religion, and consequently one very great and
important end of education, I should say the most import-
ant of all, would not be sufficiently attended to. (Hear,
hear.) The advocates of the secular system of instruction
see this difficulty, and it appears to me, while' no doubt,
many differ among themselves, that the most able of them
take a mode of obviating the objection, which certainly de-
serves the utmost consideration of this house before any
system of the kind should be adopted. The scheme is deve-

loped by many of the writers on the subject, especially by
Mr.Combe, whose name, no doubt, will be well remembered
by the house. What he holds out is this-- that very imper-
fect views are taken with respect to religious subjects ;
that very often those rules which the Almighty has laid
down for our conduct in this life, so far from being fol-
lowed, are wilfully or blindly set at nought ; and that it is
the business of the schoolmaster to teach those laws of
social economy and of physiology by which the people of
this kingdom may be better instructed in canducting them-
selves so as to enable them to avoid that course of vice
and misery into which too many of them fall. It will,
however, be obvious to the house that this is a proposal
different from what was the apparent proposal, as at first
put forth, of the advocates of the secular system. The
proposal, as it stands nakedly in the first declaration of
their views, amounts to this—give exclusive secular in-
struction in the schools, and leave religion to be taught
elsewhere by the ministers of religion. The second view
of the subject, however, is this —there is a natural theology
which should be taught in the schools, but Christianity
should not be taught there. (Hear, hear.) Now, that
appears to me a view certainly more extensive, and un-
doubtedly far more dangerous, than that which the advo-
cates of secular education first set out with. My belief is
that the people of this country acted with a right instinct,
when, upon associatingitogether and devoting their money
for the purpose of education, they declared openly that
there should be a religious training in the schools, and
that that religious training should comprise all the great
doctrines of Christianity. (Cheers.) Therefore, neither
I nor the present Government can be a party to any
plan for proposing a secular mode of teaching instead of
that which is at present established. I come, then,
to the question as to what should be done under the
present system. I do not, owing to the difficulties
which I mentioned at the outset, think it possible
to unite throughout the country the children of persons
of different religious communions in one plan of educa-
tion. There are obviously very great difficulties with re-
spect to those requirements which are made by the Na-
tional Society on the part of the church, and with respect
to requirements, too, which are naturally made by the
Dissenters on the part of their communities. With respect
to the National Society, it is pas t of their rules—l do not
say whether it will be changed or not—that every child at-
tending their schools should learn the church catechism

they had no aifficulty so long as they confined themselves
to the Atc,hoots under which the minutes of Council might
receive assistance ; but, when they endeavoured to frame a
scheme of their own, for new and further schools, they
were met by- the difficulty that all should receive the bene-
fit of assistance. Now, the resolution to which the asso-
ciation had come, made it an absolute and essential condi-
tion that the Scriptures should be read in the authorised
version, leaving, however, the Roman Catholics to use the
Dow version. But it was to be expected, and it did oc-
cur, that the Roman Catholics demurred altogether to the
religious instruction to be given in such schools, and they,
therefore, formed a minority dissenting from that plan.
Now I think the same difficulty would be found in any
attempts to frame any other plan, and we should not
therefore propose that the power of the town councils
should go further than the appointment of a committee,
which should distribute the sums obtained from the rate
according to the minutes of the committee of Privy Coun-
cil. The committee to be- appointed by the town councils
would be formed partly by members of the council, and
partly of other persons resident in the town, who would be
able to obtain accurate information with respect to the
schools, and see that all the conditions required by the
State were complied with in those schools. I propose to
ask for leave to bring in a bill to carry these into effect. I
may add that we propose also that in these schools a parent
should have the power of withdrawing his child from the
religious instruction to which he might be subjected. It
is obvious, however, on the one hand, that the parents
would not their children to a school where the reli-
gious instruction should be repugnant to the parent ; and
on the other hand a school which had strict rules that
every child should receive that religious instruction, would
at once refuse admission to such a child. All will be done,
therefore, by a clause which will declare the general prin-
ciple that the parent may have the power of such with-
drawal. Seeing that such a plan could not be generally
adopted in this country, and for this plain reason, that in
many parishes in the country there could only be one
school, we propose by a minute, which has been for' some
time under consideration, but which is not yet fully ma-
tured, to allow in certain instances to places which
have not municipal corporations a certain sum per head
for each child attending the school. It will be neces-
sary, however, to confine any such grants to those
schools where the schoolmaster has obtained a certificate
of ability. That minute, when its provisions shall have
been fully matured, will be laid upon the table, and the
house, before coming to any vote upon it, will have ample
opportunity afforded for duty considering it. (Hear.)
The committee of council have likewise considered the pro-
priety of making additional grants for buildings in some
poor places where great difficulty exists in obtaining a suf-
ficient sum for establishing schools. I should say that the
schools generally throughout the country may be divided
into three classes. First, those in which the education is
already sufficient, and where it is also of a sufficiently good
quality; secondly, where the education is deficient both in
quantity and quality; and thirdly, where education has
been entirely neglected. The schools of the first class are
already considerable number; those of the third class are
rapidly diminishing, and are certainly not very numerous;
but it is the second which constitutes the largest class, and
which requires the largest amount of aid and assistance. I
have now stated what is proposed to be done by the bill
as regards a school-rate, and by the minutes of council with
respect to building. There is, however, one subject of
great importance, and with regard to which several bills
have lately been introduced into this house—l mean the
very large amount of property which has been left by cha-
ritable bequests, and which now forms the income of pub-
lic charities. (Year.) Attention was called to this subject
many years ago by Lord Brougham'; and among the varied
labours which he has performed, and the many splendid
efforts which he has made, I know of no object more use-
ful to which he has turned his attention ; and I know of
no arguments more striking than those which he has used
upon the subject of public charities. In 1848 a commis-
sion was appointed upon the subject, several commissions
have been appointed since that period, the last being ap-
pointed, by the Crown, when I had the honour of holding
the office of Secretary in the Home-office, and finally made
its report in 1837. This commission made its report in 38
folio volumes. They reported that the number of charities
amounted to 28,840, and they stated the aggregate income
of the charities, upon which they reported, to be 1,209,395/
They likewise ated that the annual income of the endow.

meats for the purpose of education was 312,0001. Now,
with respect to many of these charities, various evils have
been found to exist. With regard to a great number of
them, the money has been left to individuals, the trustees
having been careless in recovering them, and they have
been lost in the lapse of time from negligence and inat-
tention. With respect to others of them, the money has
been dispersed by litigation. One instance is mentioned
in the report of a sum of 3,0001., which, after a law-suit
of a considerable length of time—conducted as law-
suits were in our Court of Chancery—left a residue of only
151. a-year. There are unfortunately too many instances
of the same kind. Many of these charities are of exceed-
ingly small amount, and they have• been left for purposes
which are not now found to be useful. The charities not
amounting to 51. a-year are 13,331 in number, and those
of Si. and under 101. are 4,641 in number, making a total
of 17,272 under 101. per annum. Upon the other hand,
there are several which have increased far beyond the ex-
pectation of those who founded them. There are of cha-
rities of 2,0001. and under 3,0001. twenty-four 2 • of 3,0001.
and under 4,0001. ten ; of 4,000/. and under 5,0001. four ;
of 5,000/. and under 6,0001 two; of 8,0001. and under
9,0001. three • and there are also one each of the different
sums of 10,0001., 15,0001., 20,0001., 25,0001., 30,0001., and
35,0001. This is a subject which, having attracted the at-
tention of the public, was sure to be brought under the
consideration of Parliament and of those who held office in
the High Court of Chancery. Lord Lyndhurst, from 1842
to 1845, introduced, I think, three or four different bills on
the subject, which did not, however, pass through Parlia—
ment. Lord Cottenham, in the same way, four times in-
troduced bills relating to these charities, and last year a
bill was under consideration, proposed by the last commis-
sioners of charities appointed in 1849, which contained
many useful provisions. Some of these provisions went
to obtain more accurate and complete accounts of the value
of these charities, their amount, the prevention of loss by
litigation, by declaring and enacting that, without the au-
thority of the Attorney-General, no suits should be insti-
tuted. Other parts of the measure went to give the power
of exchanging lands and granting building leases, working
mines, and various other powers, which would tend to
make property of this kind more valuable. We propose to
adopt these provisions, but we propose to vary the power
to which this discretion is to be given. It appears to us
hat there are many matters totally distinct, and whit}

and sh-Ould attend the church on the Sunday. It is obvi- ought to be placed under distinct management. There is
outs that this rule must be intended to apply only to the first a judicial power, which would be required to declare
children belonging to parents who are members of the whether any of these trusts have been abused, and to take
church, because, if you asked questions in the catechism of methods for remedying obvious abuses against the will of
a child not baptised—if you pretended to ask him his name, the founder. Secondly, there is a power which is that of
and who gave him that name, it would be manifest false- administration, or rather of superintending the adminis-
hood, and almost blasphemy, for the child to say that his tion, of trusts, which it appears to us should be differently
godfather and godmother gave it him, when in truth, he exercised. It was proposed last year that there should be
had neither godfather nor godmother. But, even if that a body of three persons named by the Lord Chancellor, two
difficulty were got over—even if the National Society and of whom were to receive salaries, and the third might also
all the managers of schools belonging to the Church were receive a salary, if it should be thought necessary to
to say that they would dispense, in the case of some chil- give it. There is no reason to think that persons so
dren, with the rale with respect to learning the catechism, appointed, without the superintendence of Parliament,
and would not require their attendance at church, still I would do otherwise than exercise their power merely so
do not think that in the present condition of things the that there should be no abuse of the powers given by the
great difficulty would then be at all removed. The house founder of the charities, and in taking care that no unnes-
will see, if it gives its attention to the subject, that here is sary litigation should take place. Now, we think it de-
a very great question involved, in which the Protestant sirable that there should be an authority which should
Dissenters of this country naturally take the deepest ipte- have the power of proposing and enforcing amended
rest. In reference to ecclesiastical affairs, we have an schemes for the disposition of charitable property for such
established church, with its endowments, and the Sove- useful purposes as the founder himself might wish to see
reign of the country belonging to it, with the exercise of them applied to. We therefore propose that there should
her supremacy, and various laws making a distinction be- be vested in a committee of the Privy Council, to be ap-
tween the Established Church and bodies who belong to pointed by her Majesty, with the Lord President at its
other communions. But when we come to the question of head, a general power, besides those which I have already
political and civil rights, then, on the contrary, we have mentioned, to propose schemes for varying trusts in respect
perfect equality. (Hear, hear.) Equality of civil and to those charities. We should propose that with respect
political rights has been established with very few excep- to those schemes which should meet the approbation of
tions, and it is now the rule ; and for the last 20 years the trustees, that they should be adopted, and should,
there has been no doubt on the minds of the great majority after being placed on the record, take effect in the same
of the Legislature that there should be civil and political manner as the original trusts. There is a clause similar in
equality with regard to the subjects of this country, to effect to this in the bill proposed last year. We propose
whatever communion belonging. (Hear.) The Church in also to give a power, similar to that which has been con-
ancient days used to pretend to have complete dominion ferred by Parliament in one or two instances of late years,
over the education of the children of this country ; and I that in cases where the trustees do not consent to the
remember Lord Derby, in this house, quoting an act of scheme, a bill should be introduced into this house, and
Henry IV. to that effect ; but since the accession of the the assent of Parliament should be asked to the improved
house of Hanover education in this country has been per- administration• of these funds. It appears to me that
fectly free. When, therefore, there is a question of estab- great advantages may be gained by the exercise of a power
lishing and supporting by the State a system of education, of this kind. With respect to many of those small chari-
I believe the Protestant Dissenters would most naturally ties giving six loaves at Christmas, and different small be-
and most justly say that the rule to be established on this quests of that kind, they are generally of no use to the'
subject should not be the rule of your ecclesiastical place where they are given, and in many cases they are
laws, but the rule of your civil and political laws; it extremely noxious • they produce, in the majority of cases,
must be the rule of equality, and not of ascendancy. If merely a day of feasting and of waste, they induce idle
this, then, were the case, it leads to this most serious and profligate persons to go to some particular parish for
difficulty with respect to parish schools—that whatever the purpose of obtaining the benefits, and the benevolent
indulgence or whatever toleration you might give to the 1 views of the founder of the charity is utterly frustrated.
children of Dissenters, that would not satisfy the dissent- Of course, the house would be very jealous of giving any
ing body, because there would still remain this source power upon such a subject, which would seem to interfere
of discontent. Accordingly, when an attempt to establish unduly with the intentions of the founders of charities.
a combined plan was made, not many years ago, by my , At the same time here is a great public advantage to be
right hon. friend the present Home Secretary—an attempt gained, and here is a body which might be constituted to
which I should heartily have wished to see succeed—it was; which might be entrusted, under as many guards and
found, by the petitions presented to this house, and from , checks as Parliament should think proper, the power of
the discussions at public meetings, that a great agitation endeavouring to extract out of these charities the power of
prevailed among the Dissenters, and that agitation was obtaining objects of great utility—such, for instance, as
sufficient to preclude all hope of the success of the scheme. that of the improved education of the people. (Hear.) My
But it is further to be said with respect to the general' noble friend the Lord President will ask to introduce a bill
establishment of one scheme of education, supposing it into the other house, containing the views of the Govern-:
were to be supported by a rate, that there is the difficulty t meat upon this subject, and I trust that to whomsoever
arising out of the strong repugnance to the imposition of the power may be given, or whatever may be the extent
rates for such an object, in which the whole of the corn- of those powers, that we shall at last be able, after
munity cannot agree. Consequently, as the right hon.' ten years of attempted and frustrated legislation, in
gentleman oppoSite, the member for Midhurst, said last the course of the present year to legislate upon a subject of
year, there would be, if a school-rate were imposed in every this vast importance in such a manner as to improve the
parish, something like the agitation in reference to it, as distribution and management of these charitable funds. We
now often prevails in reference to the church-rates. (Hear, propose that charities not having incomes above 301. a-year
hear.) There is, however, it appears to us, one kind of should be carried to the county courts, and those above that
community in this country which might obtain the means' sum either to the Master of the Rolls or the Vice-Chancellor,
of supporting schools by rates—l allude to those towns who will have special powers intrusted to them on the sub-
which have a corporate organisation, and, under act of Par-: ject. I have now stated generally what are the views of her
liament or by ancient charter, manage through municipal: Majesty's Government upon the question of theeducation of
institutions the concerns of the locality. In towns of this' the working and poorer classes of the country. The man
kind there is not any necessity for establishing schools of which will be asked appears in the estimates, and before
one. kind. There are in these towns, generally, schools , that vote is taken we shall be able to explain fully the mi-
belonging to various communions, all of which either ante which we shall have adopted upon the subject to which
receive, or might receive, some support by the minutes of I have already referred, and it will then be for the house to
the Committee of Council. It appears to us, therefore, consider whether it will grant the sum asked for or not. There
that it is possible, at all events, to give power to the cor-' are some other topics upon which I wish to touch, because
porations and municipal councils of such towns to vote a' they are akin to these subjects, though Ido not propose to
rate for the purpose of improving education therein. But, enter at length into them. The first is, that the speech
in so doing, we should think it necessary to impose certain of her Majesty, delivered at the commencement of the
conditions, in order to prevent evils which otherwise session, has occupied the attention of the Government. Thl
might arise. In the first place, we think it right that two- earnest deliberation of the house was in that speech re-
thirds of a town council should agree in the imposition of quested to the consideration of the subject of the promotion
the rate. If a mere majority had the power to impose the of science and art. It is proposed by the Board of Trade
rate, and the majority should happen to be small, that that the same authoritygranted for the department of schools
would give rise tb incessant attempts to overturn the pre- of design, and for the purpose of science, should be united
vious decision, and to probably great dissentions in the under ohe department, to be called " The Department of
locality ; but if two-thirds of the representatives of the Science and Art," under the Board of Trade. Without any
community gave their voice in favour of the imposition of very large expenditure, it •will be found that there will be
the rate, their decision would probably be generally in means of opening museums for scientific objects, and also
accordance with the sense of the town. In the next place, for a museum of art, which for the present will be placed in
we think it necessary that the rate should be applied, not Marlborough House. There will also be the means provided
to establish schools in substitution of former schools, but for giving instructions on technical questions relating to art
in aid of the voluntary efforts of individuals, and of the and manufactures, calculated to improve and cultivate the
school pence given by the parents of children. We should taste as applicable to manufacturing purposes. Dr. Lyon
propose some such scheme as this—that the rate might be Playfair will be the inspector of the scientific, and Mr.
applied to pay 2d. in the week for the scholars, provided Cole of the department of art, and under their care and
4d. or sd. were contributed from other sources. We should superintendence it is hoped that great advantage will be
propose, likewise, that the schools which should receive this obtained. What more immediately concerns that which I
assistance should be schools which, under the minutes of have to state to the house this evening is, that it is pro-
Council, might receive assistance, and which, consequently, posed by the Department of Art, instead of sending to
have for years received the sanction of Parliament. (Hear.) , certain schools iu this country that aid which has usually
I should be afraid of great difficulty and dissension if we been granted, that models and particular forms useful for
were to go beyond a rule of this kind, and I found my instruction in drawing should be furnished as parts of the
opinion very much on what occurred in Manchester in the grant in cases where such assistance is required, for the par-
past year. It is well known that a number of goalie+ pose of improving their pupils in drawing and in a know-
men, most benevolent, and entitled to the highest ledge of the principles of art. (Hear.) I said that I
praise for their exertions, associated together for the par- I would state upon this occasion what were the general views
pose of establishing a rate for improving education in that of her Majesty's Government with respect to the reports of
place. When they endeavoured to collect the opinions of i the commissions which were appointed by the Crown on
the town a very great number of ratepayers—some might , the subject of the two universities. The house is well aware
dispute whether they amounted to the majority of ratd- that these commissions have presented reports of a most
payers, but they appeared to be so—assented to the prin. valuable kind, setting forth in great detail the history of
ciple of. rating. When they came, however, to consider ; those universities, giving a great deal of evidence of a most
what hand of schools should receive assistance, I believe instructive and valuable nature, and themselves suggesting

various reforms in the universities. I will not state any
particular scheme which it is the intention .of the Govern-
ment to adopt. On the contrary, her Majesty's Government
are of opinion that they would not fulfil their duty in the
best manner, if they proposed any particular scheme for the
adoption of the house until the matter had been much more
maturely considered, and until the universities had had
the opportunity of giving their suggestions and their ob-
servations, and adopting such measures as they may think
it desirable to adopt on the subject of the changes sug-
gested. Speaking, however, of the University of Oxford,
there are in the first place some points upon which the
commissioners have touched, with respect to which I think
it-is but fair that I should state what are the views of her
Majesty's Government. The first subject with reference
to Oxford, and which is of the highest importance, is the
constitution of the government of the university itself.
(Hear, hear.) We are of opinion that very considerable
change is required in the constitution of that university.
(Hear,i hear.) We think it desirable that there should
exist a
_greater power of introducing into the governing
body of the university persons who, in the station of pro-
fessors, are engaged in teaching in the university, and into
the several colleges those who are engaged in teaching in
those colleges. What should be the particular form of
that governing body is a matter upon which, as I have in-
timated, we are not yet prepared to decide. What we
say is, that it is a subject to which we shall look, to which
our attention will be directed, and upon which we shall be
ready to receive any suggestion which may come from the
university itself. But if these suggestions either do not
come, or if they should fail to meet what we think the cir-
cumstances of the case require, it will then be necessary to
cbme to Parliament and submit to it proposals of our own
on the subject. (Hear, hear.) There is another matter
upon which our opinion is no less decided with respect to
the principle, and that is, a more full and free admission
to the teaching of the university. My belief is that these
universities were intended, and ought to bo treated, as in-
stitutions for the benefit of the country, and that their ob-
jects ought to be fulfilled more completely than they have
been of late years. For this pm-pose' I believe it will be
necessary that there should be a power of admission, and
of attending the teaching of the university, and of acquir-
ing those privileges by means other than those of belong-
ing to, or residing in, colleges. (Hear, hear.) Whether
the recommendations of the commission on the University
of Oxford, or the different recommendations of the com-
mission on the University of Cambridge, should be taken
on the subject, I will not now pretend to decide. Any
change which shall effect the object, and effect it without
endangerinc, the discipline of the university—because that
point must be kept carefully in mind—will be favourably
considered by us, and will be one which we shall be ready
to adopt. (Hear, hear.) Another subject in connection
with the present state of the University of Oxford is the
amount of restriction which is placed upon the attainment
of fellowships and emoluments in the university. (Hear.)
Many of those restrictions, it is true, claim for their origin
the statutes of the university, or the wills of the founders,
but we have to consider that if these statutes and these
wills were to be literally obeyed, we should have, not the
present state of the universities, but a state very much
different, and one which it would be impossible to maintain.
I will not upon this point express any opinion as to the re-
commendations of the commissioners—whether all restric-
tions as to place of birth, or the county to which the persons
belong, should be abolished, or whether persons belonging
to that locality cceteris paribus should have the advantage
—all I say is that merit, industry, study, and ability ought
to have their due reward. (Hear, hear.) I may say fur-
ther, in respect to another topic of great importance, that
a greater part of the incomes and revenues of the colleges
should be devoted to purposes of instruction, such as to
giving additional incomes to professors, or applied in other
modes most conducive to giving instruction in the univer-
sities. No doubt, we must keep in mind on this subject,
as in other trusts, the purposes for which they were created.
At the same time, I do not think it possible to lose sight
of the times in which many of those foundations were
made, and the views entertained by those who founded
them—views which were entertained naturally and pro-
perly according to the belief of the times, and, perhnps,
longeraccording
apptloy the
tlo circumstances
e c u
present
steanntc epse oro d
ft h. e
F or times,
instance, but whicht no
was
thought at one time that it was most desirable that a num-
ber of studious men, perhaps of the ecclesiastical profes-
sion, should devote their time to study and to prayer, and
that they should remain in seclusion from the rest of the
world. Far be it from me to state that those who devoted
their means and their estate to that purpose took a mis-
taken view of the benefits which might thereby be ob-
tained. I believe that at a time when no man's house was
safe, when armed knights were frequenting lanes and val-
leys to save the peace of the country, and there was no se-
curity for life or property, the sacred character given to
these institutions enabled the men thus secluded to pre-
serve the works of learning; it enabled them to preserve
those great classical works which at the time of the revi-
val of letters were found in the monasteries and convents,
and which, amid the din of arms and amid a state of ig-
norance which might have led to barbarism, yet kept alive
that sacred flame rrom which we have derived our civilisa-
tion. Far be it from me, therefore, to say that they were
short-sighted, and still less to say they were not benevo-
lent. But the circumstances of the present day are utterly
altered in that respect ; and those same men who, ani-
mated by the love of knowledge, made those foundations,
would probably, if they lived in these times, be the first
to say that instruction of another kind ought to be given.
(Hear, hear.) There is another view, likewise, which they
might have entertained with regard to the localities to
which they confined their endowments. It might very
well be that a man of property, seeing that his county was
in a state of ignorance, and entirely deprived of the light
of letters and science, might have thought that if he found-
ed in the University of Oxford or in the University of
Cambridge a fellowship devoted to the inhabitants of that
county, it would turn their minds to the acquisition of
knowledge, and thereby he might increase the general cul-
tivation, and so civilise the county. Ido not say that was
not a wise view ; but what I say is, that with our present
means of communications and with the present circulation
of knowledge through the country, a reservation which might
be wise at the commencement would be exceedingly unwise
at the present moment. (Hear.) These, then, are four of
the objects which we shall endeavour to keep in view with
regard to the University of Oxford :—First, the improve-
ment of the governing power or body ; another, a larger
admission of students without belonging to a particular
college ; third, the removal or modification of the restric-
tions which now exist in regard to the attainment of the
rewards and honours of the university to a particular county
or locality; and fourth, the application of some part of the
endowments and property of the colleges to the purpose of
instruction in the university, which are now not given for
any purposes of instruction whatever. Another object
which I think we should have in view is, that when fellow
ships are attained by students, the distinction should not
be held for life, but only for a certain period. Thus we
shall have a constant stimulus to and a constant system of
promotion. (Hear.) Sir, I will not go into the recom-
mendations that have been made by the commissioners ap-
pointed for the University of Cambridge. They recom-
mend, in a similar spirit, that those restrictions which I
have mentioned should no longer exist, but they state that
the university itself is continually, from time to time,
adapting its institutions to the present state of knowledge
and the present state of the country, and they expect that
further improvements will be made in the same direction.
They say that they think it would be a great misfortune if
the University of Cambridge should in any respect fal
short of that which is required from it by the most en.
lightened view of the public interests, and the greatest ad.

vintage of the people of this country. At the same time,
with a natural pride in the university to which they be-
long, they say they are happy to think such has been the
case, and they further think that it will continue to be the
case hereafter; at the same time they state their firm be-
lief that the interposition of Parliament will be required in
order to enable the Uniliersity of Cambridge to make all
those reforms and improvements which, in their opinion,
ought to be made. (Hear.) Now, sir, may I venture to
say that the persons whom I had the honour of advising
the Crown to appoint to the commissions of Oxford and
Cambridge were men of very great distinction ; they were,
men who themselves had attended those universities—men
who had attained to the greatest honours, some of them in
science and others in classical learning ; and that they ap-
proached the subject with that reverence for those great
institutions which such men were sure to feel ? When,
therefore, such men as these advise such extensive altera-
tions, and accompany them with such observations, I think
it is the part of Parliament, without reserve, and waving
every objection, to consider their different proposals, and
to legislate for the improvement of the Universities of Ox-
ford and Cambridge. (Hear.) I trust I have made it clear
to the house that we do not propose at the present time, or
without giving full means to the universities of considering
all that we ought to do, to introduce any bill to Parliament
on these subjects. At the same time we shall keep in view
these objects which we think essential. (Hear, hear.) If
the universities adopt them, and carry them into effect as
far as they can, and apply to Parliament for powers to
carry them out still further, we shall be happy to see them
arrive at that consummation ; but if they should not
do so, if there should be persons who are still deterred by
their prejudices from making any, even the most useful
alterations, it will then be our duty, as the Government,
not to hesitate, but to bring in such measures as we may
think absolutely necessary. (Hear, hear.) Now sir,
having ventured to trouble the house upon this important
subject, I feel that, wide as the field is which I have had to
go ove., it has ;been quite impossible for me to give an ade-
quate notion to the house, either of the present state of
these questions, or of the measures which the Government
mean to propose. (Hear, hear.) But I have a firm belief
that the people of this country, who themselves have
founded these institutions—that the people of this country
who, in the course of the last half century have carried
day schools and the instruction of the poorer classes to
such an extent as I have shown—will supply any inade-
quacy which I may have shown, and will even supply any
defects they may find in our legislation. I feel that, with
regard to the great and most important subjects, that
will happen which we have seen happen in the material
world and in physical science. We have seen that which
beggars have passed unnoticed, and which was disregarded
converted into the means of giving brilliant light in our
streets and our houses. We have seen those powers of
nature which were usually considered noxious and destruc-
tive employed to carry to distant regions in a few minutes
intelligence which a century ago would require weeks, and
even months, to convey. We have seen other wonders of
physical science and physical study astonish, almost every
year, the generations in which we have lived. I feel per-
suaded that whatever may be the state of society in this
country at present, that there is a power at work which
will draw up from the dregs and the destructive part of
that society the means of establishing religion and mo-
rality upon a still firmer basis, and which will make reli-
gion and morality the crown of our social institutions.
(Hear, hear.) I feel, then, that this is even a nobler task,
that it is even a still greater achievement than those won-
ders which the acquisitions of science have enabled us to
effect. (Hear, hear.) Imploring, then, this house to pay
the utmost attention to all these subjects, to take no word
of mine as sufficient for the measures that we have to pro-
pose, but begging them to keep in view these great objects
upon which the future happiness and welfare of this coun-
try must depend, I shall conclude by asking for leave to
bring in a bill to improve and extend the education of the
people in England and Wales. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME contended that secular education was the

only system of education i;hioh could be generally accepta-
ble in this country, and that the noble lord's plan would
be a failure if he intended to combine with it the teaching
of religion. The principle of the division of labour should
be applied to education as well as to all other pursuits—the
schoolmaster communicating secular knowledge, and the
clergyman that which was religious. He could not com-
prehend why a schoolmaster should be well able to train a
boy up to the proper discharge of his social and political
duties. Times were certainly altered now, but when he
attended school he recollected that no distinctions were
made. There were as many sects then as there were now,
and the schoolmaster taught them all alike. No religion
was taught except just those points to which nobody could
object • the Catechism was the subject of instruction on
Saturdays. That system worked well, but he was sure
th
nato ehiftirnee of improvement.nobleloadhere A
adhered to his
the
someprinciple
time,therehe
would
be was
greatly obliged to the nohle lord for having introduced the