The Sun.
London, England, 1838-04-10 00:00:00

Oppositee_s at they were acquitting by it those Members of such
`-'°,ll.l•lMlttee3 who belonged to themselves ?
:!! . O'C ONNEL L—Acquitting themselves.
41r. Sergeant 'WILDE continued—The expressions used
°Y the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin certainly ap-
Pliedtb to the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, because he alleged that
at'rea illc.tediu given manner. Thaf imputation was thrown
raittegd'lst-tine lion. Gentlemen opposite as a body. He sub-
dna this was a case "with which the House could not
.4 go fors aid, and therefore, instead of seeking to vindi-
,Late the Members of the Committees, they would do much bet-
ter irthey acceded to the proposition of the Noble Lord be-
low him.
Thy
,House then divided, and the numbers were—
: For Mr. O'Connell's amendment
- . Against it
Majority for the amendment
A SRY ABOLITION ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
e
DAVE motion of Sir G. Grey, that the Slavery Abolition
s
t Amendment Bill be read a third time,
Mr. O'CONNELL had two clauses of great importance
so propose but as the House was so thin he would not press
them, especially as he meant on the first day after the recess to
Move for leave to bring in a Bill in which the object of those
claases would be embodied.
• Thi Bill was then read a third time, and on the question
that it do ass
alrplc.E.
•Cs' '.!BIALER proposed a clause by way of rider for
19fra testwith respect to the valuation of slaves previous to
their 'manumission.
!After a'brief discussion, in which Sir G. GREY, Mr. Goer,-
us*, and Mr. GLADSTONE took part, the clause was nega-
e•
4Without a division, and the Bill passed.
SUPPLY.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply,
:tTke..CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
oe vote Which he was about to propose was one which he
felt satisfied woulcraneet with the ready and unanimous assent
sof the House. The Committee up stairs appointed to inquire
into the ?the P •had bestowed the most
subject of Pension List
anxious and careful attention, and consideration on all the cases
that had been brought before them ; but having been unable
to complete their inquiries they felt it their duty, in the report
which they had now made, to abstain from expressing any
op which could compromise the question with which they
hid ion
to deal. They were, however, he was authorised to say
on their part, unanimously of opinion that the greatest h ard-
ship and injustice would be don if the Government. did not
Provide for the payment of the proportions of those pensions
Which would fall due on the sth of April ; and it was.in ac-
cordance with this opinion of the Committee that he now
begged leave to propose a resolution that a sum of 33,5061
be granted to her Majesty, to pay the amount of the pensions
charged on the Civil List and the Consolidated Fund by the
2nd and 3d of William IV., due on the sth of April.
• Mr. HARVEY could not help saying that they ought to
have had some more satisfactory statement before them than
the-report to which the Right Hon. Gentleman alluded, before
they could justify the Government in making the present pro-
Position. He was surprised at the time that had: elapsed
vcitho'ut any report having been made, and when the Com-
mittee applied to be at liberty to report from time to time, he
anticipated that they would,slong before this, have made an
elaborate reports 'A .kindred Committee—that on the Poor..
laws*--had made twenty reports within the time, containing the,
whole of the evidence, and, therefore it was a matter of sur-
prise to him that from the Committee on the Pension-list they
had only a report of a few words, having for its object -the_
Payment to those parties of what was' due to them-.' 'Re
thought it was due to the country, as well as to the House,
that the Chancellor of the ExchkinFshetild state something of
the nature of that inquiiy, or of the.grbunds on which they had
come to the conclusion of recommending that course which
the Right Hon. Gentleman had now proposed t.
o the House.
- The Pension-list Committee had now been sitting a period of
four months from the date of their appointment in December
last, and was this then the only result that was. produced by
their labours after so considerable a time oectipind in'inquiry ?
They had examined Into ne less than 088 cases, which neces-
sarily were clasSified and arranged under different heads, and
et the Committee did not enable the House to distinguish
between those different classes of cases, or to see who were'
those whose claims to be on the Pension List had_ been.sa:
tisfactorily placed beyond dispute, There were no detibt
many on the Pension List whose claims to a continuance of
that pension it might be supposed the Committee would have
no doubt about after hearing the evidence on which- those
claims rested. But the House had no account of who those
parties were, or of the grounds on which -their-claims-rested.
He was ens of those who from the beginning had felt
that if this inquiry had been properly gone into, 'arid that-
an honest and searching inquiry had been 'made, that thei:e-
would be found many who had no claim whatever i0"156' upon
the Pension List, neither from reason, the improper nature
of the grounds on which the pension had been originally
granted or on account of impropriety or, the part of the re-
ceivers of those pensions. He certainly thought that there
were many eases of this kind in which the parties would have
either waived their claims altogether to the continuance of
those pensions, or the claims would have been totally extin-
guished by the inquiry. He had been told that-there hadinot
however, been a single individual for examination before the
Committee, and that the course taken by the Chancelldr
tlQExchequer was precisely this—that the Right Hon. "Ge -
ttoi having plenty of time to spare from his Orircial.
t
I", wished to throw— mare-;
no doubt most benignantly—the 9
ie f his
Co° o—c.al protection around those parties- who were
crrned in this inquiry. The Right Hon. Gentlemarr ac-
aeri wrote to all the parties concerned, inclosing them a
tnLeety
of questions, and requiring them to send such answers
`"e of
qtteations as would enable the Committee to judge
of
tthheire cleims. No doubt these parties made such answers
ewn t° 4 questions, and shaped them so a best to answer their
phrposes. This was the sort of evidence on which the
`-cranaitt
ee had proceeded, as none of the parties themselves,
had been called for examination before it. Well, then, it was
• edaiitted that there was one class on the Pension List respect-
ing whose claims to the continuance of their pensions it would
• appear that there existed no doubt ; but then there was an-
other class, regarding whose right to be on the Pension
List at all there existed very grave and serious doubts.
As to the former class, all doubts respecting them would be
got rid of when once their claims were established. As to
the other class, when once it was proved that they had no
right to be there, their claims ought to be disallowed and their
pensions discontinued. Yet nothing like this had been done
In the very short report which the Committee had, made.
They had made no distinction between those who had no
right to be on the Pension List and between those whose
right had been clearly established. The Chancellor of the
Exchettsser now came forward to propose a suns of money
which might be adequate to the amount payable to the whole
List without any deduction whatsoever. From the evidence
stmonsvell as from the manner in which the inquiry had been
, conducted` felt satisfied that any one. would be quite safe in
)nferrin' trat the Whole deduction made by the Committee
from the amcant.of the pensions would not, in the aggregate
exceed five per cent. The whole sum received amounted to
140,0001•,
and he certainly did not think that they would have
Itoy thing like eleven thousand deducted. From what he in-
ferred reapecting the inquiry, as well as from the nature of
t
°rue of the letters that must have been received, he had no
nooubt that by a close, and searching, and honest investigation,
e i
°The half of the whole sum might be saved to the country.
ght Ron. Gentleman had not informed them whether
!veil one claim would be rejected. They should not know
but that all would be continued. He had heard the Hon.
Gentleman who had been examined at their bar that evening
say, that he had been filched of his seat ; but he (Mr. D. W.
Harvey) might justly complain that he had been filched of his
Committee, and he might say, on the same ground which
that Gentleman had alleged, namely, political feeling. If
that Committee had not been wrested from his (Mr. Har-
vey's) hands he believed that he would be able to bring
such a body of evidence as, both by the force of that
evidence and by the examination of the parties themselves,
Would have enabled them to save at least half of the
140,000/. He did not think, considering the present state of
the finances of the country, that the Chancellor of the Exche-
per could, at the present time, feel inimical to any saving.
He believed the Right Hon. Gentleman's Budget, when it
was brought forward, would show that there was no surplus.
The House was now about to adjourn for a fortnight. Shortly after their re-assembling after the holidays they would be again
interrupted by two occurrences, considered of the greatest im-
portance by a great part of the House—namely, Epsom races,
and some other race, the name of which he did not recollect:.
They would then have the Whitsun-holidays, and then would
come the coronation. The House, he supposed, woulecome
to the conclusion of its labours for the present session sometime
about the middle of June, so that they would have two months
adMore of business before them ; and he would ask, after all that
happened, and after that Committee had been sitting for
four months, was that a report which the House or the coun-
try had a right to expect? He was quite satisfied, as he had
already stated, that the whole result of the inquiry would prove
_I
delusion—not from any impression that the charges against
the Pension List were groundless, but because those charges
Lied not been properly dealt with, and the subject had not unfer-
gcme that upright and searching inquiry which the House as
wall •
as tne country nan a rignt to expect. H understood
that some half-dozen pensions had been surrendered from the
contrition of the parties receiving them—from the parties not
twishing to carry on their plunder any longer—or not wishing
Loosrgo the investigation, or front a decent sense of shame.
rnittYo's7en, had these parties been overlooked by the Corn-
theWhy were they not mentioned in the Ruort with
_ encomium which their conduct merited ? Why, further-
re, were not those mentioned who had shown themselves to
re abundant claim to their pensions ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
appeal to the Hon. Member for Southwark whether he was
}l°, wrong in saying that this inquiry, in the way in which it
c
_‘‘, been
, conducted, was meant as a political juggle ? Who-
To r looked at the list of names that composed that Committee
,v 7 Uld see that they were not a Committee over which a Go-
oe(perit was likely to have much influence. Several Members
R "at Committee were present, and he appealed to them. He
„ealecl to his Hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny, the Hon.
tiernber fur Lambeth, the Hon. Member for Derby, and the
at°,.,n., Member on the second bench below him, who were all
ig`4loers of the Committee, whether, as far as they had
g.ht assistance in furthering the inquiry, they had not boon
110 possession of all the evidence they could require. The
(the•
n'Alernber in the course of his speech had stated that he
leChancellor of the Exchequer) had addressed a circular
thteter to those parties, and which letter had been neither before
the Committee nor the House. This was so far the fact, but
befotireeMember ought to know that this letter had been
paper .in country. It had been published in every news-
the L'n the country. It was easy for everyone to see what.
Itlio_euiect of that circular was. The Hon. Member must
tireewsetdhtnot i9totvoas ograpwhich had been ad-
pearlithsons, and surely it could not be imagined