The Sun.
London, England, 1853-06-03 00:00:00

. more satisfactory and complete. He thought that the
house and the public should have a clearer and fuller
account of the expenses and receipts of the ecclesiastical
commissioners, and the transactions of that board gene-
rally, than had heretofore been given.
The Earl of POWIS said he would wait for the re-
turns till the next annual report, with the exception of
the two laA returns, which were granted.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-(YESTERDAY.

INCOME TAX.

On the motion for going into committee on the In-
come Tax Bill,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, in
reply to Mr. Freshfield, that as the main principles of
the tax had been deliberately discussed and settled by the
house, the Government was not prepared to entertain
any suggestion respecting the mode in which it was to
be levied on incomes from land and houses under sche
dule A.
The house then went into committee upon the b
Mr. Bouvmuu in the chair.
On clause 9,

Mr. FREWEN suggested that magistrates should be
ex officio commissioners of income tax, as they were com-
missioners of land tax and assessed taxes. The hon.
member moved the insertion of words in the clause for
that object.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER doubted
the expediency of the amendment. It would be an inno-
vation, and he doubted whether it would be an improve-
ment in the existing law respecting the appointment of
commissioners.
The amendment was negatived without a division.
The clause as well as clauses 10, 11, and 12 were then
agreed to.
On clause 13,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, on
the suggestion of the hon. member for Horsham (Mr.
Fitzgerald), he had drawn up a clause of a very im-
portant character, entitling a landlord to be repaid any
sum which had been charged on rent which he had not
received and had been lost to him by the bankruptcy,
insolvency, or absconding of the tenant.
Mr. BUTT proposed an amendment to the effect that
assessments chargeable in Ireland, in every case in which
the annual value amounts to 151. and upwards, shall be
levied on the same persons by which the poor rates are
paid, and in other cases below that sum on the landlord
or lessor.
Mr. FRENCH protested against a measure that would
have the effect of placing Ireland on a different footing
from England. He believed its object was solely to force
the landlords of Ireland to drive out the small occupiers.
That policy had originated with the party now in power,
and had caused a great portion of the " Exodus." Fear-
ful, however, as that Exodus had been, it appeared not to
have satisfied their anxiety to get rid of the Catholic and
Celtic population. (Hear, hear.) For his own part, he
had no faith in the justice of England. He had no confi-
dence
in any English legislation unless it proceeded upon
a community of interests with Ireland. (Hear, hear.) He
should, therefore, move to leave out the word " Ireland,"
so as to make the clause a general one. (Hear, hear.)
Captain MAGAN complained that these important
clauses had not been delivered to the uaembers generally
on the previous night, and hoped that the right hon. gen-
tleman would consent to the chairman's reporting progress
and asking leave to sit again.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
accede to such a request. He was not the printer, and
was not responsible for the delivery or non-pelivery of
papers. These clauses, however, were obtainable last
night at the vote-office.
Mr. MAGUIRE did not wish Ireland to be treated iden-
tically with England. Hers was a special case, and ought
to be dealt with specially; besides which there was suffi-
cient of identity in the mere fact of the impost being ex-
tended to Ireland. He protested against making the
occupier pay the tax in the first instance. That would be
a great hardship and a great injustice; and, moreover, the
occupier would not always be able to recover back from
his landlord the sum he had paid on his behalf. He
thought, too, that the operation of the law ought to be as-
similated both in cities or boroughs and in counties.
Captain MAGAN suggested that the fairest plan would
be to levy the tax at the end of the year upon the land-
ord's net receipts.
Mr. E. DENISON thought the argument of Mr. French
a very singular one. He demanded identity of taxation
with England, and then proposed to leave out Ireland from
the bill. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
Mr. FRENCH said it might be well for the hon. gentle-
man to make himself perfectly aware of a subject before he
spoke upon it. He had had sufficient experience, and there
was no excuse for him, either for misunderstanding or
misrepresenting the remarks of other gentlemen. He (Mr.
French) had expressly stated that his object was to make
the clause apply to the United Kingdom generally. (Hear.)
Mr. F. SCULLY considered that without the clause the
tax would be intolerable, and would stir up a war of
classes as bad as any they had ever yet seen in Ireland.
The reason why tithes had created so much odium was be-
cause they had been exacted from the small tenant ; and,
without this provision, the case of the income tax would
be precisely similar. (Hear, hear.) This opposition, let it
always be remembered, was a landlord's move. (Oh.) If
the tax were levied upon the tenants there were many cases
in which it would never be allowed by the landlords ; and
they must remember the immense number of small occu-
piers in Ireland. From a recent return, the number of
holdings under two hundred acres was upwards of 500,000,
whereas the number above that was not more than 7,000
or 8,000. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. KIRK thanked the Chancellor of the Exchequer for
the important alterations he had introduced—alterations
by which the injustice of the measure as at first proposed
had been remedied. (Hear, hear.) He should give the
clause his cordial support.
Mr. LUCAS was also obliged to the right hon. gentleman
for the clause, but he wished to have a point explained
with reference to its operation. He wished to know
whether it was not intended to exempt the occupier from
payment altogether in every case where he gave satisfactory
information respecting the owner ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER answered
in the affirmative as far as land was concerned. With re-
spect to tenements, he had not yet obtained sufficient infor-
mation to say at what point the occupier would be relieved
from payment.
Mr. MAGUIRE wished to know when the right hon.
gentleman would be able to answer the question?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the point would not be fixed below that adopted for col-
lecting the poor rate. If that were not the point taken, it
would certainly not be much higher.
Mr. MAGUIRE said there were many persons whose
rent was 121. or 151. a year, but to whom the payment of
the tax would be a great and harassing burden.
After a few words from Mr. R. M. Fox and Mr. HAMIL-
TON, the amendment was negatived.
Mr. I. BUTT then proposed an amendment, for the pur-
pose of making the assessment compulsory on tenants above
151. a year.
Colonel DUNNE thought, if there ought to be any
exemptions, it ought to be in the towns rather than in the
country districts.
The committee divided—
For the amendment
Against it

Majority lO9
Mr. CAIRNS then moved the following proviso:—" That
any immediate lessor of any tenements or hereditaments in
Ireland, charged with duties under schedule A of this act,
may, within twenty days after notice of such charge, by
writing under the hand of himself or his agent, delivered
to the officer making such charge, elect to be assessed in
respect of such tenements or hereditaments by anology to
the assessment under schedule D, and thereupon no fur-
ther proceeding shall be taken against such immediate
lessor in respect of any duty charged under schedule A for
such tenements or hereditaments ; but the duties shall be
charged on such immediate lessor under schedule D, com-
puted on a sum not less than the amount actually received
by such immediate lessor in respect of such tenements and
hereditaments, within the year ending on the preceding
fifth day of April, without making any of the deductions
which by the said act of the fifth and sixth years of her
Majesty, chapter thirty-five, are allowed to be made upon
assessments under schedule D, but deducting any sum
paid by such lessor during the year in respect of the
poor rate for such tenements or hereditaments." The
Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that the landowner
was to be assessed on the amount of the rest, and not on
the amount actually received. The effect of the amend-
ment would be that a landowner would be charged on his
receipts of the previous year. The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer said the landowner might have an allowance if
he claimed within six months of the loss ; but in Ireland
rent was not payable till six months after it was due,
and if the term of six months in which to make the claim
were extended, the effect would be to make the land-
lord more rigorous in enforcing his rent, which would be
a great evil. The landlord was entitled to an allowance if
his tenant became a bankrupt or insolvent, or if he ab-
sconded. Ho did not think a tenant could legally become
a bankrupt. If he became insolvent there might be a diffi-
culty; and with regard to his absconding, the landowners
in Ireland experience the annoyance that their tenants
would not abscond. These wore the grounds on which he
put forward his amendment. He had no personal interest
in the matter. His only wish was to exempt a Class of
persons from a hardship which was not only great, but
gratuitous. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
this clause had originated in the disposition felt by him, in
common with many members of the house, to go as far as
possible towards meeting the demands of the Irish mem-
bers. (Hear, hear.) He did not hesitate to say that he
was surprised at many of the proposals made in the course
of the present debate ; in fact, he had rather felt an appre-
hension that the members connected with England would
complain at the large concessions made to the Irish mem-
bers. As to the objection to the poor-law valuation being
taken as a basis of calculation, he could only say that many
Irish members had requested that that valuation should be
the basis of proceeding.
Sir A. BROOKE said that the right hon. gentleman
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) seemed to be very proud
of the concessions he had made to the Irish members. He
(Sir A. Brooke) could not see that these concessions were
ao very great. He complained that in every case connected
with Ireland, the Irish were sacrificed to mere party pur-
v2,3_,. The right hon. gentleman had been requested by
'`usn members to make this concession ; he (Sir A. Brooke)
h
thought
those b_ 0 knew who these members were. They were
some suchgentlemen who were known as the brigade or
Mr. st,V.?. (Laughter.)
vernment .4.11 Y for one would give his vote to the Go-
(Hear, hear,) a „..,.leadeopendent member, upon this question.
man (the dianxicet errtainly thanked the right hon. gentle-
which ho had 01 ef the Exchequer) for the concession
members on th
more thankful than oeiba" if anything would make him
was offered by hon orwise, it was the opposition which
Mr. H. HERBERT was 0 other side.
Practically ac Chancel-
Irish
hzerand that detareaCitead
for of the Exchequer wa,; 'Mite certain that the Ch
Irish as with English affs.fli°t nted
ably from the value with
(Hear, hear.) Rents in Ireland nurrneent upon this consider-
(Hear,
half-yearly. They were paicasitpaict as in Eng
in fact, it was necessary to keep open au Yfi conld be got
se of receiving rents. The cost of
tara"nle`
all thise or
the rr-
full 5 per cent. Considering the altered at
to
y' a e of Irelaia 1
he should therefore vote with the hou, member
oPposite
(Mr. Cairns.)
Mr. NAPIER complained that in dealing with Ireland
The state of things in be.
hon. Members looked rather to the collateral effects of the
law than its main provisions.
land was exceptional, and should be dealt with accordingly;
and he (Mr. Nap.er,
1 thought that the provision proposed
'by the hon. member on his
left (Mr. Cairns) was the best
a iapted to the end in view.
FORTESCUE had had
gre.at.
he
airinng
.
d tenant in up his mind upon this question, and h.. .1 lacir
1 ci no consideration between Jan=
vc