The Sun.
London, England, 1854-02-25 00:00:00

THE -BU-N,--LON'DON,-SATTTIMAY kVENING, rEBRUARY 261 1864.

Ellice ; and m7zelf. (Hear.) ?_s regards what the hon. education, of their children were_ more or less neglected.
baronet said of the existing strength of the country, I must He thaue-ht that a subject eminently deserving the conside-
remind those who think the present estimate is not large ration of the Government, and he was certain the army
enough that Ido not propose this as a war estimate to the would never be perfectly organised so long as soldiers
house., The Government wished to have their policy dis- abroad knew that their wives and children, whom they
cussed before making any great augmentation. It may had left behind. them, would be thrown on the svorld
• : Blot be so satisfactory to the whole house as to the honour- for charity during their absence. ( sear, hear,
increase of
hear.)
able baronet, but I. have to state that I must before long He begged to say a word on the
bring before you a supplementary estimate. At present I the staff. He believed that what we called the staff of
staff
suing year, be 112,977.
will not delay the house any further, but only move that our army in the field was one of the worst
fin Europe.
the number of land forces, officers, and men, for the en- reason was, that we had no opportunities or l earnine
..
duties, and no arrangement corresponding with the etat-
Mr. HUME congratulated the Government on the bene- major officers in the French service, except the 14 officers
ficial working of the system of rewards described by the who went to study at Sandhurst with the view to the per-
right hon. gentleman, and expressed satisfaction at hie formance of staff service.
statement as to the amount of deposits in the military Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said, with respect to the
savings banks. With regard to the next point, his gallant complaint of his hon. friend as to the appointments to the
friend made some observations on the colonial service, household regiments, he had on a previous occasion stated
which he rather expected the right hon. gentleman to that the committee had reported that the three household
notice. The colonial papers showed that there had been regiments:of cavalry should be reserved for veteran officers
an increase of the military force in the colonies, but he of distinction, but they did not recommend that such an
thought the explanations of the right hon. gentleman arrangement should be insisted on with respect to the foot
on that head were perfectly satisfactory. But there was guards, the appointments to which rested with the Sove-
a class in our colonies where the reductions ought to reign, for the members of her family. In the case of the
take place very carefully and gradually ; he meant those household cavalry regiments the recommendation of the
formerly slave-holding colonies which had been injured committee had been scrupulously followed, Lord Strafford,
and where for example, having been appointed to one of them in con-
and ruined by the legislation of this country,
it would require great prudence to decide on the reduc- sideration of his long and brilliant services. With respect
tion of the military force. But with regard to Canada to the suggestion for an equalisation of the rates, he must
they ought to defray
and Australia, he thought the whole observe that the three regiments did not stand on the same
es ',wises of the troops they required. lie must make footing as to numerical three ; and he thought the vested
souls, übeeta ation upon the Dun-effective service, which he interests involved in the question should be respected. lie
eaes absorbed LIV.I Illiiiiol,l of money, while the effec- thought it was due to his royal highness to observe that
ties :swiss only cost lUisc willioos, and that, too, after he (Mr. S..idney Herbert) had occasion to snake a proposal
the leug peace that has occurred. fie must say, however, to him with respect to his regiment. It had been a matter
that these was uodepaitment in the G overnment establish- of complaint in that house for a long time that there were
meets that was inure improved than the army; sod when a great number of supernumerary officers in the guards,
he saw the attention that was paid to the education of the and he (Mr. Sidney Herbert) made a proposal with respect
soldiers, and thesyetem of rewards that was adopted—when to those sapernumerary officers which involved a sacrifice
he saw all that the Government had done, and all that they on the part of the colonels of the guards of theirpatronage.
were disposed to do, he could not bring himself to criticise That proposal he submitted to his royal highness, who at
very minutely the details. He must express his cordial once consented to relinquish his patronage. (Hear, hear.)
approbation of the way in which the 11,000 men were pro- He thought it due to his royal highness to state that cir-
posed to be raised, and he admitted that it was impassible cumstance.
to devise any mode by which 11,000 men could be added to Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that was a new fact to him, of
the army at less expense. Before sitting down he wished which he was not previously aware. (A laugh.)
to make one observation on a gross injustice done to the Sir JOHN FITZGERALD related his own experience
Government by the hon. member for Roscommon. That in the army with respect to promotion, and contended
hon. gentleman said that he and those around him concur- that some regulation ought to be introduced by which the
red in the condemnation and censure that had been cast on country might have the benefit of the services of general
the Government. Now, it sounded very well out of doors officers at an earlier period of life than at present.
to say that the hon. gentleman's condemnation was con- Lord GODERICH called the attention of the committee
curred in by those around him, but it ought to be known to the mode of education now adopted with respect to the
that there was not another member near the hon. gentle- private . soldier, under which he was required to attend
man when he spoke--(laughter)—that the Opposition ben- school only during the time when he was undergoing the
ches were entirely empty—(hear, and laughter) For him- preliminary drill, the consequence being, of necessity
self, as a friend of peace, he thought that the Government almost, that he acquired a dislike for the instruction he
deserved praise instead of censure on account of their pro- received there. He suggested that the soldier should not
ceedings and must enter his protest against these censures, be required to attend school until after he had undergone
He concluded by congratulating the house and the country that preliminary drill, and then that he should do little or
on the improvement that had taken place in the condition nothing else for three or four months, an arrangement
of the army, by which the men were stimulated to good which he (Lord Goderich) thought would tend to make
conduct by hopes of reward, instead of being driven by him appreciate the education the more at the time it was
brute force. imparted, and to use it afterwards as a means of relieving
Lord LOVAINE wished to ask his right hon. friend the the tedium of garrison duty during his subsequent service.
Secretary-at-War whether he did not contemplate addling (Hear, hear.)
at least one subaltern to each company, which he thought Mr. HOME contended that there should be some limit
was rendered necessary in the present circumstances, when to the number of general officers.
the troops were entering into a formidable war, in an un- Mr. OTWAY asked whether the troops in service in
healthy climate, and underuncertain auspices. He thought Labuan were employed and paid by the Government or by
the expense of such an addition would not be large while the East India Company?
the efficiency of the force would be largely increased. Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said the Government paid
Mr. JOHN M'GREGORaereed with the hon.memberfor them first, and the money was afterwards repaid by the
Montrose in thinking that the Government had acted with East India Company. the most consummate prudence all through this dispute, Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE said he could not help re-
and that the estimates had been drawn up with the utmost marking at that point of the discussion, that had we adop-
regard to economy and efficiency. He wished to draw the ted a firm and manly tone at a much earlier period of the
attention of the right hon. Secretary-at-War to the unfair negotiations on the Eastern question the same result would
practice that prevailed in Scotland of billeting soldiers have happened which followed the negotiation in 1851,
upon private families, instead of, as in England, on public- when our remonstrances were backed by a fleet, and the
houses.
Emperor of Russia withdrew.
Mr. WILLIAMS wished, before proceeding to remark The vote was then agreed to.
upon the estimates, to call the attention of the noble lord On the vote of 3,923,2881., the estimated charge of her
the member for the city of London to the great inconveni- Majesty's land forces, for service at home and abroad,
ence that arose from the numerous notices of motion upon being proposed,
the house going into committee of supply. He did not Mr. WILLIAMS moved that the emoluments of the
wish to deprive hon. members of the opportunity of mak- colonels of the Grenadier Foot Guards be reduced by
ing their motions, but the inconvenience which these mo- 2,0001., and those of the colonels of the Fusilier Guards by
tions occasion, by preventing a thorough investigation 1,000/.
of the estimates, was so great that he thought something Colonel LINDSAY said the effect of the reduction pro-
ought to be done on the subject. Nearly four hours had posed by the hon. member for Lambeth would be that his
been lost to-night by the discussion of these motions, dur- Royal Highness Prince Albert, who had nearly 3,003 men
ing the greater part of which time there were not 40 mann- under his command, would have to conduct his regiment
berg present. So, on Monday night last, owing to the for the same sum that would be allowed to a colonel of a
discussion which took place, the three great votes of the regiment of the line for a single battailon.
navy estimates—those which, in fact, embraced the whole Mr. HUME supported the amendment.
subject—were passe lat two o'clock in the morning. Ho Lord LOVAINE and Mr. M. CHAMBERS took the same
did not wish to stop lion. gentlemen from bringing forward view of the proposition as Col. Lindsay.
their motions, but why could they not take the Wednes- Mr. WILLIAMS, in reply, contended that the colonei
days, when no business was at all transacted? To return of a regiment, whether his regiment consisted of one, two,
to the question of the estimates, he did not wish to oppose or three battalions, performed no duty ; that his office
the vote for the efficiency of the force. He had hoped that was, in fact, a sinecure, and considered as tho reward for
the vote now proposed would have been enough for the distinguished services.
year, but as the right hon. gentleman told them they were The amendment was negatived, and the vote agreed to.
to have fresh estimates afterwards, that was an additional A vote of 151,3821. the estimated charge of general staff
reason why they should practice economy in every prat- officers and officers of the hospitals, was agreed to without
ticable way. Last year his hon. friend the member for discussion, as was that of 105,093/ to defray the expenses
Montrose called the attention of the house to the higher of the several public departments.
pay of the three colonels of the foot guards over those of On the vote of 17,4011. being proposed for the Royal
the regiments of the line. (Hear, hear.) The defence Military College.
then was, that those regiments were to be given only to The Marquis of BLANDFORD complained of the
distinguished officers, and if that had been so, no one would charge of 401. a year made to the cadets of this college, and
have objected to it. But the regiment of the Grenadier that a revenue was derived from;the establishment. Dur-
Guards had been given to Prince Albert, and though his ing the last year the expenses had amounted to 16,4861,,
royal )highness held a high rank in the army, yet he did while the receipts showed an excess of 1,544/. on that sum.
not profess to be a soldier, and therefore the giving of that Many of the widows of officers could not afford to pay the
regiment to his royal highness was a violation of the prin- sum of 401. a-year required for the education, and the be-
ciple that had been laid down. The pay of that regiment neficient objects for which the college was founded were
was 3,0001. The command of the Coldstream Guards was thus, in part, frustrated. (Hear, hear.) He trusted that
given to that distinguished officer, Lord. Strafford, and some alteration would be made in the regulations which
therefore he did not object to that though the pay was would bring the institution more in accordance with the
the same. The pay of the colonel in the Fusilier Guards, design of its original founder, the late Duke of York.
which was held by the Duke of Cambridge, was 2,1355., Mr. S. HERBERT said that he entertained considerable
while he might state that the pay of the colonel of the 2d doubt as to the propriety of affording eleemosynary educe.-
Regiment of Foot was only 1,0801. He could not under- tion to cadets in the army. He received constantly nume-
stand why, if these offices were not to be considered in the roue applications for admissions, and no complaints had
light of good service pensions, and given to distinguished been made to him on the subject of the cost of the educa.-
officers, there should be any difference between the pay of tion at the college. He thought they could not do a worse
a colonel in the guards and in the line. But there was thing for many of the widows of officers than to encourage
another point in connection with this matter which re- them to bring up their sons to so expensive a profession as
quired attention. The practice of making an addition to that of the army.
the colonel's pay by a profit upon the clothing of the regi- The Marquis of BLANDFORD stated that some of the
ment was a degradation to the service, and made the colo- cadets of the military college had turned out to be most
nele, in fact, the tailors of their regiments. (Laughter.) able and efficient officers.
lie was not against a proper allowance being made to the Mr. HOME disagreed with the opinion which appeared
colonels, but it ought to be voted openly, and paid directly to be entertained by the Secretary-at-War, that young
in money. (Hear, hear.) He was astonished that so men of fortune ought alone to be encouraged to enter the
ee al ted a personage as his Royal Highness Prince Albert army. It was too much the habit of persons of that class
should condescend to make a profit of 1,8001. a-year out of to enter the army merely as a profession, and whom it
the clothing of his regiment. Surely that was not consistent suited very well so long as peace lasted, but who, when
with his position either as a soldier or a prince. He found war came, too frequently sold out. (Cries of " No, no.")
that the clothing of the artillery was provided 16 per cent. At all events, the army was too often made a mere conve-
cheaper than the other regiments, and yet it was in itself nience, and the consequence was, that many who were
far superior ; and the same thing might be said of the ma- really soldiers, and who felt an interest in the profession,
rines. With regard to another point, the right hon. gentle- were deprived of the emoluments and rank which ought
man had called their attention to the improved character properly to fall to their share.
and conduct of the soldier, and he (Mr. Williams) was Sir G. PECHELL thought that by a reduction of the
glad to find that there was such a diminution in the num- expenses of the management of the college, some additional
ber of punishments, Coupled with that, there was a facilities might be afforded for the admission and educe-
great increase in the amount of money paid as rewards for tion of orphan sons of officers in the college.
good conduct, The system was only established in 1837, Mr. OTWAY considered it exceedingly desirable that
when 1,944 men received 3,600/. ; the increase had been some steps should be taken to give increased facilities for
continuous ever since, and there were now 30,900 men in the orphan sons of poorer officers being educated at the
the receipt of the reward, which amounted to 63,90/. e expense.
thought that this was likely to go on till it added aopenny pu
Mrblic. M. CHAMBERS said that he had had the happiness
a day to the soldier's pay all over the army ; but if it im- of being educated at Sandhurst, and felt much interest in
proved the character and conduct of the soldier, and saved the college. He could not helpthinking that 401. a-year was
a single back from the lash, he could not object to it. too much for the officers of some orphans to be calledupon to
(Hear.) After asking for explanations for the vote on pay, and he regretted to hear the Right Hon. the Secretary-
regimental schoolmistresses, and for encampments, he said at-War state that gentlemen of this description ought not to
he observed that the army was 12,000 short of the num- enter into her Majesty'sservice. (Hear.) Onthe contrary, he
leers voted last year, and he wished to know what saving thought they were the very men who ought to be afforded
had been effected in consequence of this deficiency in the the opportunity of entering, and considered it would be an
army compared with the numbers voted. inducement and encouragement to many officers, who were
Mr. LAING said it must be obvious that the number now about to engage in foreign service, if they knew that,
of men now asked for by the Government involved the in the event of losing their lives, their orphan sons would
question as to how the war was to be carried on. Now, as be educated at the public expense. (Hear, hear.) Most
he believed that an increase of 11,000 men did not hold out sincerely did he regret to hear the right hon. gentleman
any security that the war would be vigorously and effi- state that the British service was too expensive a profes-
ciently prosecuted, it was with great satisfaction he heard Rion for gentlemen of small fortune to enter. (Hear, hear.)
the right hon. the Secretary-at-War state that a supple- He would suggest to the consideration of the right hon.
3a:watery estimate was to be brought before the house who, gentleman whether, as Sandhurst was at present a profit-
under ordinary circumstances, would think it their duty able establishment, the sums to be paid for education
rigidly to criticise the estimates, and to object to any fur- might not be arranged according to the rank of the parents
ther increase in the forces, but who, in the present circum- whose orphans required that
education which was given at
stances, considered that the only true economy was in the college. (Hear, hear.)
voting such a number of men and supplies as wore neces- The vote was then agreed to, as were also a vote of a
nary for carrying
ion the war with vigour. (Hear, hear.) sum of 20,7501. for the Royal Military Asylum and Hiber-
The amount of injury which the country had already nian Schools, and a sum of 88,000/. for volunteer corps.
sustained by the mere apprehension of war was far The next vote proposed was 20,500/. for allowances to
greater than would have been supposed. That floating officers fur distinguished services.
mass of property which was contained in the funds, Mr. HUME wished to know why the recommendation of
railway securities, and such like, and which was gene- the committee with respect to the abolition of the office of
rally estimated at a thousand millions sterling, had constable of the Tower had not been acted upon?
suffered a depreciation of not less than 10 pe cent., Mr. S. HERBERT stated that a warrant had recently
being a total loss of a hundred millions. (Hear, hear.) been signed by her Majesty fixing the establishment at the
hear.) He wished, instead of the criticism that had taken Tower on a reduced scale, and, as the vacancies occurred,
place on the past conduct of the Government, some sub- the pay would be appropriated to distinguished service
etantial motion had been proposed, on which the house pensions.
might have expressed its opinion by a vote. They would Lord J. MANNERS suggested that some plan should be
thus have shown to foreign countries the unanimity of adopted for rendering the buildings of the Tower more
their feelings on this question; and the Government would sightly than they were at present, and more in accordance
lave been able with more freedom, and with a more undi- with the object for which it was built.
vided responsibility, to take such steps as they thought The vote was then agreed to.
necessary for bringing this war to a speedy and a successful On the proposal to vote a sum of 46,000/. for the pay of
termination.
l officers,
Colonel BLAIR rose to complain of the remarks which general Mr.a WILLIAMS called the attention of the committee
the hon. member for Lambeth had made upon the colonels to the number of general officers. We had at present no
inthe guards, which he said could not have been made at fewer than 324, or 24 to each regiment. This, he thought,
a worse time. One of those colonels, the Duke of Cam- was an abase which required the attention of the Govern-
bridge, was no drawing-room officer ;he had gone with meet.
hise regiment to foreign service, and he did not deserve to Colonel LINDSAY said the hon. member must have in-
be branded as a tailor to the army. With respect to his eluded a great number of retired general officers who re-
Royal Highness Prince Albert, though it was true he was ceived no pay. There were not now more than 243 or 244
not bred to the army, yet, having served under his Royal general officers who received pay.
Highness's command, he could testify to the extraordinary Mr. HUME said that he thought no more officers should
_4e
v he took over the comfort and welfare of the men. be kept up than were required, and that therefore the num-
dcerr. WILLIAMS explained. It was the system he con- ber of generals should be reduced to what were requisite
henon. edvo;s_he had not said a word against the colonels, to meet the exigencies of the service.
an Zia. Position he wished to elevate, by relieving them of The vote was then agreed to.
Alr. ious distinction.
On the vote of 49,600/. for full pay for retired officers,
REATHCOTE called the attention of the right hon. Colonel LINDSAY complained that the promotion of
gentleman th
dries, Wee_
.. eSecretary-at-War to the difference in the retired officers ceased at the time of their retirement. As
neer, ahcfnay:Ye the officers and privates, by which the for- the number of these officers was but small, and as the
cessarily a=s sufficiently lavish of their blood, were unne- averaee number of years' service of the retired lieutenant-
that great rased to the fire of the enemy. It was notorious colonels was about 38, and of majors 36, it was clear that
that accounts,' was sustained in the late Arne • rican war on much addition to the higher ranks could not be made by
Emperor of Itaiisnl_he knew from high authority that the allowing promotion to go on. He hoped this subject would
between the osficaeiar„hadl abolished all distinction in dress receive the attention of the commission to which the right
this matter would • and the men of his army. He trusted honourable gentleman had alluded.
hon. friend. meet with the consideration of his right The vote was then agreed to, as was also a vote of
Sir DE LACY EsrAN.B
115 ,889 for widows' .
colonels, as they were
called, the practice of having tailor On the vote of 33,6715. for foreign half-pay,
quity, which had existed, heTte". an old remnant of anti- Mr. HUME expressed his fear that great abuse took
objected to a commission 0 th heved, for 150 years. He place under this head. He had heard of the case of an
of the aged general offie„„s, e a subject of the retirement officer who signed receipts for 13 or 14 years' half-pay in
was to remove the responsibility
n the ground that its object advance, and these were received by his widow after his
bear it, and of the length of time
efothose who ought to death.
have any result. With respect to there the house could Mr. HERBERT said that great care was taken to pre-
troops, it was notorious that the pren,. clothing of the vent abuse, and it had of late years been usual to insist
nitely better clothed than ours, and „„rnintrfooPs were infi- upon personal attendance.
Re knew epeaf ae
well et li lq that tayt
respect was attributable to the old renanaeurti°eritY in this The veto was then agreed to ;as was also a vote of
to which he had just referred.
much teonatltled to
i7e58,t5y0,50/r.efyoarlthheeuchotmy.passionate allowances, as of her Mt-
fteer the Ki
the-Commander-in-Chief, whose opinion ss„.W
the greatest respect, had desired very Ohunatihnehavrnotehoosfp3itoa,l6s9,4s. for tho expenses of Chelsea and
clothing of the soldler, by substituting frock coats
going
to alter the Mr. I. BUTT asked what steps had been taken by the
Paltry jackets in which our troops were now
abroad; but one of the principal causes of the alteraetriovne Government with respect to Kilmainham Hospital in con-
not having been carried into effect was the existing system sequence of address agreed to by that house in the last
of contracts. He thought it was not to be endured that
session of Parlment ?
Mr HERBERT HERBERT said that, in consequence of that address,
our soldiers were to serve abroad during the approachin
war, it might perhaps be for several years, in clothing new had, acting upon the decision of the house, prepared a
greatly inferior to that of our allies. warrant, -which was now in force at Kilmainham. He
had
mede sense alterations in the arrangements of the hos-
Colonel DUNNE begged to say a few words with respect pi tal,
to the wives and children of the soldiers going abroad. greaten' some cases attaining a reduction of expmleaniststtee,ydientahirals;l
There was no subject of snore importance to the well-being year wroeufald.cils,
andcomfort of the soldiersgoing out on service than the and in fut le'caYo.mTewhehantugnirbe:rteorf tpheannsiointerswaads
state in which they left their wives and children. There nently kep7 ; the number of in-pensioners would be permit-
ePoat 140.
a 8 always a creel separation in such cases; but that was Mr. Elan P
notdrive all Most of these poor women and children were comply with complained that this arrangement did not
nto fall back on their parishes, on which they became 1845, the nun n- Pint of the address of last session. In
a burden, and ber of in-pensio at Kilmainham was fixed
very often formed vicious habits, wbilit the 4, at 200, and hi 4 • nere
lo ccultllluati until a predecemor of the right

hon. gentleman's had altogether stopped the admission of
pensioners. The spirit of the address of last year was that
the number should be restored to what it was in 1845. He
feared that if the plan of the Government were carried
out, the good effect produced in Ireland by the address of
last year would be done away—and that, too, at a time
when it was most desirable that no dissatisfaction should
be felt on a point of this kind, and it would be believed
that there was, on the part of Government, an intention to
curtail and tamper with everything Irish. Nor could such
an impression fail to be strengthened when it was seen that
the vote for Chelsea Hospital was increased.
Colonel DUNNE complained that the vote for the more
expensive establishment—Chelsea—was increased, while
that for the less expensive establishment—Kilmainham—
was reduced ; for no other reason, as far as he could see,
but that it was Irish. He thought that when they had
imposed upon Ireland taxation not warranted by the union,
the least they could do was to maintain her public esta-
blishments.

cash—(laughter)—and if they told them there was ready
money for them, which would enable them to put on a new
suit of clothe; they were likely to accept of it. (Hear.) As
to entering landsmen, he protested against it. He did not
mean to say that no landsmen should be on board ship ; but
if ever they had oven a moiety of landsmen iu blue jackets,
farewell to their triumphs. (Hear.) They would have them
tumbling off the yards, and they would have many more ac-
cidents. They were told they were on the verge of a •mar, and
he daresay they were. He trusted and believed the navy
would do their duty. (Hear.) They never had such power-
ful ships, and he only hoped they would have such good crews
as they had during the last war. (Hear.) It should be,
however, observed, that the best crews did not shake into
their places for some months, and they could not expect that
ships would all at once be as effective as if they had been in
commission for 6 or 8 months. It required time to enable the
officers to judge of them, and to put them in their places.
Some remarks had been Lade, reflecting on the conduct of
the ambassador at Constantinople (he would leave him to take
care of himself), and also on the conduct of the admirals.
Comments had been made as to why they went here and there:
but they should recollect the dangers that must occur in an
unknown sea of narrow dimensions, where the fleets of two
nations were cruising together; and the best thing to do dur-
ing the dark nights and bad weather was to do -what had been
done—to keep up a chain of steamers between themselves
and Sebastopol, let the Russians go to sea, and then get be-
tween them and Sebastopol and stop them. Some of the gen-
tlemen who commented upon these matters had never seen a
gale at sea. (A laugh.) With respect to the Baltic, he had
served there three years, and had been at the blockade of
Cronstadt. At that time they were at war with Denmark,
Sweden, and Russia. The enemy managed to get in, and all
they could do was to blockade them. Whether their screws
would do more he could not say, but they kept the enemy in,
and they never attempted to get out. He hoped for more de-
cided results somewhere in the Black Sea or in the Baltic.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY was desirous to put a question re-
lating to the affair at Sinope.
The CHAIRMAN reminded the hon. baronet that the ques-
tion had no reference to the vote under consideration.
In answer to an Hole. MEMBER,
Sir J. GRAHAM said, orders had been sent to the officer in
command of the Plover, leaving him to exercise his discretion
whether he would stay one winter more, or return when the
ice sets in.
Mr. HUME hoped the Government would consider the ad-
vancement in other branches of her Majesty's service when
dealing with the seamen, being convinced that they could not
get the best men without giving a fair price.
Sir J. GRAHAM spoke in so low a tone as to be almost in-
audible. He was understood to refer to the advancement in
the pay of the navy by the late Board of Admiralty, and the
regulations with respect to punishment, which had been
adopted, as improvements which had resulted in a consider•
able accession of naval: volunteers. Notwithstanding the
general rise in seamen's wages, and the emigration from all
parts of the United Kingdom, the royal service had become so
popular that since November, 1852, 7,000 additional seamen
and 1,800 marines had been entered, showing that there was
no necessity at the present time for any bounty. The hon.
member was in error in supposing a bounty of 5/. would only
involve the sum of 35,0001. for the 7,000 fresh volunteers.
By a just law the Admiralty would be bound to give the same
bounty to the seamen already entered, and that would amount
to at least 200,0001, (Hear.) The spirit of the seafaring
population was above all praise, and, as a proof of the alacrity
with which the men came forward, he was happy to say they
had in the month of February entered no less than 900 men
by voluntary enlistment alone, and volunteers were still
coming in as quickly as they could desire, (Hear, hear.)
Admiral Sir G. PECHELL agreed with Sir James Graham
that there was no fear of any want of seamen. He was glad
to find that the operation of the act with regard to the Coast
Guard had answered, but he still doubted if they obtained all
the benefits from it which were expected. He had, however,
the strongest hope and belief that the ships would be able
to perform those duties which the country expected of them,
and he felt fully justified in saying at no former period in the
history of this country had the navy been in such excellent
condition. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the injustice of
placing captains who had not been six years at sea, when
they came to the head of their list, on what was called the
reserved list, and not upon the list for active service as
admirals, it had been fully discussed in the other House of
Parliament, though he had not observed it stated that some-
times the captains got better situations, and did not apply for
any appointment to ships in commission. The First Lord had
given them reason to believe all ships would be required to
perform service in the Baltic and Black Sea, but he hoped
some attention would be paid to the suppression of the slave
trade, which could only be done effectually by a blockade of
the coast of Cuba. He hoped the Admiralty had taken such
precautions as to leave a sufficient number of ships for the
purpose, for he observed the present captain-general of Cuba
was determined to prevent the importation of slaves--
Lord J. MANNERS rose to order. The chairman had pre-
vented the honourable member for Evesham discussing the
affair at Sinop°. Surely the slave trade of Cuba was quite as
irregular. (Hear, hear.)
The CHAIRMAN said the gallant admiral was connecting
it with the administration of the Admiralty.
Sir G. PECHELL considered the interruption of the noble
lord very unnecessary, and really thought the honourable
baronet (Sir H. Willoughby) might have discussed the dread-
ful catastrophe at Sinope, as the Admiralty had seat a fleet
to the neighbourhood without appealing to the chairman at
all on the matter. (A laugh.) Perhaps some discussion of
that subject would have been of advantage in preventing the
recurrence of so great a calamity. (Cries of "go on, go on.")
It was satisfactory to find that the screw propeller was now
to be applied to all the vessels of the royal navy. He hoped
the right honourable gentleman would not forget the subject
of the freight-money receivable by officers in the navy. He
wished to ask the right hon. gentleman whether that valuable
article, marine glue, so useful in the construction of the masts
of line-of-battle ships, and of the larger class of vessels gene-
rally, was made use of in the navy T This glue also enabled
them to get rid of the process of caulking, and the use of
pitch on board of our vessels, which in tropical climates
caused a very offensive nuisances injurious to the healths of
the crews.
Sir J. GRAHAM would begin first with the glue. (A
laugh.) He had the greatest pleasure in telling the gallant
member that Bo far from the use of that article being discon-
tinued in the navy, it still proved a very efficacious and
excellent material, which Was used very largely, and effected
a great saving to the public. The practice with regard to
freight-money, to which the gallant member referred, had
been superseded in a great degree by the course of events ;
and he was not aware that any instance of it had occurred for
a considerable period. There was another observation of the
gallant gentleman which he could not allow to pass unnoticed.
It would be very undesirable that it should be supposed in
Africa and Cuba that on account of the naval exertions the
country was called on to make, we had the least intention of
relaxing our efforts in suppressing the slave trade. Ho (Sir
J. Graham) had great pleasure in informing the house that he
had not withdraw from the African station a single ship, and
he had no intention to do so. The flag-ship would be replaced
by a most efficient screw-steamer; and the directions of the
admiral were to keep a close-watch, the earnest resolution of
the Government being that the efforts and vigilance of the
squadron in !suppressing the slave trade should not undergo
any diminution. (Hear.) _
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that there were 243 clerks in the
Admiralty, the number of messengers being 67, which he
thought an excessive number in proportion to the staff of
clerks.

Mr.HUME believed that it was desirable to abolish both
Kilmainham and Chelsea hospitals ; there was considerable
difficulty in getting in-pensioners, because the fact was the
old men lived much more comfortably with their friends
and families out of doors.

Mr. VANCE bore testimony to the excellent manner in
which Kilmainham was conducted, and to its tendency to
keep up a national spirit in Ireland. It would accommo-
date 220 pensioners, and he, therefore, thought it was only
fair that the number should be kept up at 200. The popu-
larity of the establishment was very much increasing with
the pensioners.

M.r. WILLIAMS remarked that 46 officers of one kind
or another were employed in looking after 98 old soldiers
in this establishment. (A laugh.) He believed the pen-
sioners would be much more comfortable with their families
than as inmates of an establishment of this kind.
Mr.T. O'BRIEN said that the staff of officers to which
the hon. member for Lambeth had alluded was composed
of old soldiers and officers who had served, and deserved
well of, their country. There was a "great disposition to
enter this hospital on the part of men who, having served
twenty or twenty-five years abroad, had lost sight of their
family connections, and were therefore glad to go where
they might meet with their old comrades, who were now
their only friends. He hoped that they would not, just on
the eve of a war, by any utilitarian proceedings in that
house, repress the strong feeling which always animated
Irishmen to come forward in defence of their country.
Mr. HUME pointed out that all the officers at Kilmain-
ham could not have served their country, because their oc-
cupations showed that they had not been soldier; besides,
some of them—the nurses, for example—were women.
Mr. BUTT said that very few of the men who were em-
ployed at Kilmainham had not served their country ; and
as for the nurses, they were the widows of men who had
served. They were, however, not then discussing the ques-
tion of the maintenance of Kilmainham Hospital ; that
was decided by a vote of the house last year ; and he was
sure that if the question were again raised, that decision
would be confirmed by a still larger majority. What he
desired to do was to appeal to the right hon. gentleman to
reconsider the warrant which fixed the number of the in-
mates of Kilmainham so low as 140.
Mr. S. HERBERT said it was not correct to state that
the number of pensioners in Kilmainham Hospital had
been reduced. When he visited the establishment, the
number of inmates was 127 or 130, but he had increased
the number to 140, and the officers composing the staff
were men who had served their country abroad.
The vote was agreed to.
The remaining votes-33,0001. for superannuation allow-
ances, and 1,215,7121. for out-pensions—were passed with-
out remark.

NAVY ESTIMATES.

--
Sir JAMES.GRAHAM—Sir, I shall now proceed, if the
house pleases, with the navy estimates, and shall state very
shortly what is the result of our calculations for the year. On
a former evening the house consented to vote the three first
items, which are the largest in point of amount. The in-
crease in the navy estimates generally may be stated at
1,200,0001., the increase upon the three first votes which
have been already passed being 711,0001. It will be satisfac-
tory to the committee qo hear that the entire sum voted for
the navy estimates this year is by no means the largest sum
which has been voted within the last ten years. I think in
the year 1848-49, the entire sum voted for the navy estimates
amounted to nearly 8,000,0001. ; this year it is under
7,500,0001. At the same time, you will bear in mind that
the number of men for whom provision is made in the votes
which have been already passed amounts to 58,500, whereas
in 1848-49, when a larger sum of money was voted than in
the present year, the number of men was only 42,500. The
increase in the remaining votes is under 500,000/. Last year
the house somewhat objected to the diminution effected in
the scientific branch of the service, namely, the fifth vote,
and, notwithstanding the large expenditure which it will be
necessary to make with reference to the anticipation of war-
like operations, I thought I should best consult the wishes
of the house by not continuing the reduction upon the
scientific branch, and this year the house will observe there
is a very considerable increase. I shall state the particular
services in which that increase arises. In the first place, as
I have already announced, in answer to a question put to me
the other night by an hon. friend of mine, with reference to
meteorological observations, we propose a vote of 1,0001., in
consequence of the conference which took place at Brussels.
Observations have likewise been directed to be made and re-
corded daily in some of her Majesty's ships of war; and in
concert with my right hon. friend the President of the Board
of Trade, I have arranged for the taking of similar observa-
tions in the mercantile marine. These records will be care-
fully kept, the statistical information will bo properly digested,
and I have no doubt the advantage to science will be conside-
rable. In the second place, my noble friend the Secretary
for Foreign Affairs has thought it necessary to send an expe-
dition to Central Africa for the pus-pose of making a survey
Df the river Tchadda, with the view of opening up the interior
of that vast continent to our . commerce, and the cost of that
expedition will be 5,0001. It is also necessary to provide for
sending a supply of provisions to the Arctic regions, both to
Behring's Straits and the extremity of Wellington Sound
The committee will probably be aware of the announcement
which the Admiralty has thought it necessary to make, that,
considering the little prospect there is now of the return of
Sir John Franklin and his gallant comrades, it is not intended,
after the present year, to send any further expeditions upon
that hopeless search ; but for the present it will be necessary
to make provision for the ships already employed in that dis-
tant and hazardolis service. The next vote to which I will
refer shows an increase of 200,0001. as compared with the
estimates of last year. That increase is owing to the high
price of provisions, and to the increased duties to be per-
formed in the dockyard within the shortest possible time.
The artificers employed in those establishments are now work-
ing extrahours, and their pay has consequently to be increased,
in addition to the expense attending the employment of a
larger number of unskilled labourers. The next increase is
upon the naval stores ; it amounts to 119,721/., and arises
chiefly from the high price paid for articles principally con-
sumed in the dockyards such as coal and other commodities,
the consumption of which is very large. The next item to
which 1 shall refer is an increase of 115,0001. upon new
works. This increase principally arises from the expenditure
at Keyham, in the immediate neighbourhood of the arsenal
at Devonport, where a considerable sum will require to be
expended in the present year. It is proposed to give a sum
of 60,0001. to complete the two docks and basin; 50,0001.
will be requisite for the commencement of the works for
the repair of steamships of war, and 10,0001. will be ex-
pended upon the tunnel between Devonport dockyard and
Keyham. The only remaining sum to which I shall allude
in vote 17, in which the increase is 72,0001., which is con-
nected with the army- and ordnance, and which is the sum
taken for the conveyance of troops within the year. I may
state to the house that, upon the whole, my confident expec-
tation is, that the entire sum which I now propose to be voted
will cover the expenses of the present amount of the forces,
with the exception, perhaps, of two particulars. lam not
quite sure that another vote may not be necessary under the
head of No. 2—for provisions the price of which keeps per-
petually rising. lam inclined to think, also, with respect to
the expenditure under vote 17, for the conveyance of troops,
that a larger sum will be necessary at a subsequent period of
the session. Now, sir, I know not that it is necessary for
me, before going into the discussion of the votes separately,
to address any further observations to the committee. I cer-
tainly do not think it expedient to make any vain-glorious
boast in regard to the state of preparation in which we now
find ourselves ; but, in justice to my predecessors, you must
allow me to state that I found the affairs of the department
in admirable order, all the branches in good working condi-
tion, and all the servants zealous and efficient. One great
change is now in progress—the application of the screw as an
auxiliary power to sailing vessels ; and I would not be doing
justice to my predecessors if I did not state that the first ap.
plication of that principle took place under the administration
of my noble friend the Earl of Haddington, on the recommen-
dation of the present Surveyor of the Navy, to whom the
greatest merit is due for promoting so vast an improvement
in the face of much opposition. My right hon. friend the
member for Portsmouth is also deserving of the thanks of the
country for the efforts he made while at the head of the Ad-
miralty to increase the efficiency of our naval forces; and I
would be guilty of great injustice to the administration of
my noble friend the Duke of Northumberland, if I did not say
that to his grace, acting upon the advice of Sir Baldwin
Walker, we owe the application of the screw principle to a
large number of ships of war. Whatever may be said, there-
fore, of the state of preparation in which our naval forces
now are, the praise is to be distributed among my prede-
cessors, who have introduced great and decided improve.
ments into all the branches of that department of the public
service. The result is, sir, that without over-confidence, I
may assure the house, that I believe the British navy will
be found more efficient than ever it was before, and ready
and prepared to maintain the honour and independence of
the country. (Hear, hear.)
On the vote of 138,4671. for the Admiralty-office,
Captain SCOBELL thought there was no one in the nation
who would be more worthy to be a permanent First Lord of
the Admiralty than the right hon. gentleman who now filled
the office ; but it would be well if they could divest the office
of all Parliamentary influence, and apply to it the principle
which was laid down in the paragraph used with respect to
the dockyards--that merit, and merit only, should be the
ground for advancement. The present system of naval offi-
cers certainly required great change and alteration. They
had 7,000 officers of all descriptions (not including midship-
men or mates), and 250 or 260 admirals, and about 400 post-
captains. There was no way, in his opinion, to bring the
navy into an efficient state, even in war time, than by at least
reducing their active list one-half. In consequence of having
so large a list, the officers were four or five years on shore for
every one they were at sea; and some of the admirals, when
they hoisted their flags, had been a quarter of a century on
shore. There were 3,000 officers on the retired list, and
1,690 admirals, captains, and lieutenants, of whom a great
many would never go afloat again; and the navy list was
kept crowded without any good to it whatever. He would
glance at an arrangement that was made some years ago, and
which required some alteration. It was now required that
every post-captain should serve a certain number of years in
a post-ship, or otherwise ; when he came to the head of the I
list, he would be put on the retired list, and would not be
employed in active service. It would bo well to take into
recollection the whole service of each man. Some of those
who were set aside had served much longer as midshipmen,
two or three times the period as lieutenants, and three or
four times the period as commanders; but because they had
not served six years as post-captains, they were not consi-
dered fit to be made admirals. Such men might have been
twenty years afloat, when those who were made admirals be-
cause thoy had served the six years might not have been more
than thirteen or fourteen years afloat. He hoped he should
live to see the day when the navy would be more effi-
cient, and that could only be done by its being esta-
blished on a system. They had voted that night some-
thing more than 5/..per man for raising 18,900 soldiers, and
it was not fair or equitable not to offer an equal bounty to
seamen as they did to the soldiers and to the marines
who served with the seamen. They wanted 7,000 men for
the navy, and they offer 51. per head to come to them. The '
uattlre of the Bailers was this-4110Y Were generally 111 want of

Lord D. STUART had thought that it was perfectly regu-
lar for the hon. baronet (Sir H. Willoughby) to make remarks
on the subject of the anir at Sinope, or other events in the
Greek waters, upon a vote for the Admiralty salaries ; and
certainly, if it had been known before the house went into
committee that such a discussion would proceed, he believed
that the house would not have been allowed to go into com-
mittee so soon. However, the chairman having ruled it
otherwise, it was their duty to bow to his decision. He was
glad that from the improvements which had been recently in-
troduced into the navy, and the reduction which had been
made in corporal punishments, little difficulty was now ex-
perienced in manning our fleet. Ho believed, however, that
the service would be rendered still more popular if the odious
and unconstitutional practice of impressment were altogether
abolished. By adopting that course the Government would
also prove to our enemies and to the world the confidence
they could place in the patriotism and good feeling of our
maratime population, to come forward voluntarily and spon-
taneously to man our fleet.
In answer to an honourable member,
Sir J. GRABAM said that there was no intention on the
part of the Admiralty to supply her Majesty's ships with
Colt's revolvers,
The vote was then agreed to, and it was resolved that the
Chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit again
on Monday,
The hens, then resumed.
TOWNS IMPROVEMENT (IRELAND).
The Towns Improvement (Ireland), and the Improvement
of Towns (Ireland) Bills, were severally read a second time,
and ordered to be committed, Lord NAAS suggesting, with
respect to the Ministerial measure, Unitas a very short period
had elapsed since its introduction, sufficient time ought to be
allowed, before it proceeded another stage, to enable his con-
stituents, and others interested, to consider its provisions,
COLONIAL CLERGY DISABILITIES.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, in moving for leave to bring
in a bill to relieve the colonial clergy from certain disabilities,
said he should confine himself at that late hour, to a very
brief statement of the object of the measure, of the way in
which it was proposed to attain it, and of the reasons which
made it necessary that some such measure should be passed.
There was at present a great deal of doubt as to the legality
of the colonial clergy meeting together for the purpose of
agreeing, either among themselves or in conjunction with the
lay members of the Church, upon any regulations or arrange-
ments which might be necessary for the conduct of their
ecclesiastical affairs. Honourable members who were present
at the discussion of the question that took place in the pre-
cedingTarlialuent would remember that disability arose—or
was supposed, and he thought justly, to arise—out of a
statute passed in the reign of King Henry VIII., and which
prohibited the clergy from meeting together for the pur-
pose of making any order, canon, or constitution, without
being summoned for that purpose by the king. That statute
had become part of the supremacy of the Crown, and as the
supremacy was held to extend over the whole country as
well as to any foreign possession, there was very good
reason, he thought, for the apprehension that the colonial
clergy—carrying with them, as they did, the obligation
of obedience to that statute—would be acting in viola-
tion of the Law if they attempted any meeting, either
by themselves or jointly with the laity, for the purpose of
making any ecclesiastical regulation or arrangement. (Hear.)
The effect of this disability was to press very hardly on the
clergy, and to place the Church of England in the colonies in
a position very far inferior to the freedom possessed by reli-
gious bodies of every other denomination. It became abun-
dantly necessary, therefore, that some step should be taken,
not for making any church establishments in the colonies,
but for giving to the Church of England there the same free-
dom which was enjoyed by other communions. It was unfair
to place the clergy in a position of inferiority to other reli-
gious bodies in countries where they had not the same tribu-
nals to appeal to which were available to their brethren in
this country ; and it was necessary that the disability should be
removed, because in the present state of things it was impos-
ble to have the mutual relations between the clergy and their
bishops defined and carried out. The result was that the
bishop exercised despotic powers and he might deprive a
clergyman of his license, and, with his license, of the stipend
which he received from the colonial legislature—taking away
from him his whole ecclesiastical and clerical status, and, in
fact, depriving him altogether of his privileges, without his
having any opportunity of appeal. (Hear, hear.) The bishops
were reluctant to exercise this power ; the clergy felt them-
selves oppressed by the existence of a power which was not
regulated by a legal check ; and it 'had been very generally-
felt, on a variety of occasions, that some legislation was neces-
sary. (Hear.) The difficulty in legislating appeared to be to
confine the bill to the mere object of removing the disability,
without proceeding by implication to do what lie believed
would be very generally
.deprecated, giving the clergy and
laity the power, when assembled, to make laws ; or impart-
ing to any regulations on which they might agree, the force
of an Imperial enactment. (Hear.) In the bill which he had
prepared he had endeavoured to collect what he believed to
be the prcvaling sentiment on both sides of the house ; for
he had found, on both sides, a concurrent expression of
opinion that it was absolutely necessary that there
should be legislative interference, but that it should be
expressly confined to conferring upon the Church a liberty

correspondent with that enjoyed by other religious sects.
To that purpose it was strictly limited; and therefore
while it took away from the clergy, while in the colonies and
doing spiritual duty there, the disability to meet, either by
themselves or with their lay brethren, for the purpose of
dealing with their ecclesiastical affairs, it was careful to
provide that no authority should be conferred, or derived
by implication from the statute which could give to any
regulations made at any of these meetings any binding force,
unless, indeed, they wore confirmed by an act of the colonial
legislature. These were the general features of the bill,
which he hoped would meet with the assent of both sides of
the house.

Mr. HENLEY said that he would not oppose the introduc-
tion of the bill, but he must reserve to himself the right of
judging of the measure when the bill was printed. He was
afraid that it might be open to the objection that it did little
else than relieve the clergy in the colonies from the supremacy
of the Crown.

of Bankruptcy. Johnson, official assignee, Basinghall-
street ; Asprey, Bedford-row.
James Kingston, draper and leather seller, Reading,
March 15, at half-past twelve, and April 10, at one, at the
Court of Bankruptcy. Graham, official assignee ; Ashurst
and Sou, Old Jewry.
William Stratford Vaile, licensed victualler, East Green-
wich, Kent, March 15, at two, and April 10, at twelve, at
the Court of Bankruptcy. Graham, official assignee ;
Corner, Tooley-street.

Mr. JOHN PHILLIMORE said that the measure would not
abolish the supremacy of the Crown, but would merely place
the Church of England in the colonies in the same position
as other religious bodies. It was a melancholy thing that
this boon should have come so late, and he thanked the
Government for having taken up a question with which all
previous Governments had been unable or unwilling to
grapple.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that there was no more
reason to fear that by this measure the clergy would be re-
lieved from the supremacy of the Crown than from their
obedience to the laws of England.
The bill was brought in and read a first time.
OATHS BILL.
The order for the second reading of this bill on Monday
next was discharged ; and the second reading was fixed for
Friday, 24th of March.
The house adjourned at ten minutes after one o'clock.

William Kidston and Filmer Kidston, medical fitters,
North-street, Mile End, March 9, at eleven, and April 11,
at twelve, at the Court of Bankruptcy. Bell, official as-
signee, Coleman-street-buildings ; Cattarns, Mark-lane.
William Miles, shipowner, King's Lynn, Norfolk,
March 4 at twelve, and April 7 at one, at the Court of
Bankruptcy. Whitmore, official assignee, Basinghall-
street ; Wilkin, Furnival's-inn.
Thomas Broomfield, butcher, Worcester, March 11 and
27, at ten, at the Birmingham District Court. Bittleston,
official assignee, Birmingham ; Knipe, 'Worcester, Mot-
teram and Knight, Birmingham.
James Bough, carpet manufacturer, Kidderminster,
March 8, and April 4, at twelve, at the Birmingham
District Court. Bittleston, official assignee, Birming-
ham ; Brinton, Kidderminster • Reece, Birmingham.
Samuel Ratcliffe, whitesinith, Stauningley, Yorkshire,
March 7 and April 4, at twelve, at the Leeds District
Court. Hope, official assignee, Leeds ; Naylor, Leeds.
John Matthews Bayley, beerseller, Wheaton Aston,
Stafford, March G and 27, at ten, at the Birmingham Dis-
trict Court. Christie, official assignee, Birmingham ;
BirminghamNewcastle-under-Lyne ; Motterana and Knight,
John Ducker, beerseller, Bilston, 'Warwick, March 6
and 27, at ten, at the Birmingham District Court. Whit-
more, official assignee, Birmingham; East, Birmingham.

SCOTCH SEQUESTRATIONS.
Richard Murdoch, baker, Stirling.
John Mackenzie Ross, ironmonger, Inverness,
Walter Mercer, woollen manufacturer, Jedburgh,
Thoinas Gardner, brickmaker, Glasgow.
Charles Watt, innkeeper, Bridge of Allan.
INSOLVENT PETITIONERS.

C. S. Gamlyn, Carpenter-place, Berkeley-square, anti
Grosvenor-mews, builder—J. Dedman, Oxford-row, Old
Kent-road, cheesemonger—W. Haynes, Rockingham-place,
New Kent-road, shoemaker—H. C. Biggs, Cumberland-
place, Newington-butts, hosier—S. J. Christmas, Cross-
street, Walworth, chemist—W. Coliens, Ranelagh-grove,
Pimlico, dealer in horses—J. Gregg, Ealing and Brentford,
Middlesex, inspector of weights and measures--Harriett
Hill, Charlotte-street, Islington, lodging-house keeper—
A. Maugham, Battersea, Surrey, beer shop keeper—F.
Hill, Modeni-terrace, Old Kent-road, carpenter—H. Jessop,
St. Albans-place, Paddington, cow keeper—J. B. Cash,
Cannon-street, St. George's East, beer shop keeper—J. G.
Kammerer, Cranbourne-street, St. Martin's, coffee house
keeper. _ _