The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-05 00:00:00

subject. Many people thought, as he did, that he would
make but little progress, still ho had grappled with the
question and deserved credit for it. But he should have
gone further, and have stated the means by which he pro-
posed to bring all people to agree on the subject. That was
the whole difficulty of the case, and he tEad left it as he
found it. Schools might be increased, the superintendence
extended, and more money granted. By such means the
noble lord might extend education in some degree, but so
long as he mixed up the religious part of it, which ought to
lie the duty of the clergyman, with the secular part, which
ought to be the duty of the schoolmaster, he never could
produce the general benefit which ho intended. Ho (Mr.
Hume) would rate every parish and every acre of land in
the country for the instruction of the people in their moral
and social duties ; but the teaching of peculiar religious
tenets was not a subject for which a tax ought to be levied.
He approved of the observations of the noble lord concern-
ing small educational charities ; but he advised him that
half measures—doing a little in ono town and a little in
another—would not do. Let all these institutions be made
useful for their purpose. (Hear, hoar.) He would not fur-
ther discuss the question, but when the bill was actually
before the house he should take an opportunity of pointing
out some of its defects. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GIBSON said it would be premature to offer an
opinion upon the plan propounded by the noble lord until
the bill itself was on the table, and the house had had an
opportunity of considering its provisions. But inasmuch
as he (Mr. Gibson) was with other members engaged in an
inquiry before a committee into the practicability of sup-
porting schools in towns governed by municipal corpora-
tions by means of rates, such schools to be of a denomina-
tional character, he wished, with all respect, the Govern-
ment had delayed legislation upon this particular branch
of the subject until they had the report of the committee.
(Hear, hear.) He was himself so anxious that something
should be done for,the education of the people that he
should be backward in throwing obstacles in the way of
any plan : nevertheless, he doubted exceedingly whether
they could succeed in this attempt to transfer the duties of
the clergy of various persuasions to the schoolmaster.
(Hear, hear, hear.) He very much doubted whether two-
thirds of any town council could be got to agree to teach
all forms of religion in their respective boroughs, and to
support such religious teaching by public rates. (Hear,
hear, hear.) He very much doubted whether they would
get town councils to agree to train up children in the Ro-
man Catholic religion, in the Jewish religion, and in
various forms of Christianity. He feared that in making
such a proposition they were embarking in difficulties
which he saw no means of overcoming. At this prelimi-
minary stage. he would not detain the house by any general
remarks on the subject of education • but, as a member of
the Church of Eigland, he thought there was one import-
ant omission in the noble lord's speech. The noble lord
had not informed the house what had become of the mi-
nute of Privy Council of June 12, 1852, the principle of
which was to transfer from laymen of the Church the ma-
nagement of Church schools, in moral and religious mat-
ters, to the clergy of the diocese. The Government of
which the noble lord was a member in 1836 distinguished
themselves greatly, and made a great step in advance, by
enabling the laymen of the Church to manage Church
schools in conjunction with the clergy, and it was a retro-
grade step on the part of the Government of Lord Derby to
undo the decision of Parliament in former times to give
something like exclusive jurisdiction to the clergy. He
therefore wished to ask the noble lord whether that mi-
nute of council had been rescinded which enabled public
money to be given to Church schools in cases where the
clergyman had the power of dismissing the schoolmaster on
other than religions grounds, in cases in which the clergy-
man had the power of deciding what books should be used
upon other than religious grounds, and in those cases
which were provided under the new form of trust-deed
that had been allowed to be introduced for the first time
by the late Government. The question was one of vital
consequence. Although it might not affect existing schools
it involved a great principle—the principle of laymen su-
perintending the education of the young ; and he could
never, as a Churchman, consent to go back one iota to
transfer from lay committees of management any power
they had hitherto enjoyed to the sole use of the clergy.
Lord Derby said the minute would not be acted upon until
Parliament had consented to the principle ; now, as the
subject of education was before the house, a fitting oppor-
tunity had arisen of asking her Majesty's Government what
course they were prepared to take in respect to that mi-
nute ? (Hear.)

Lord J. RUSSELL—I will answer at once the question
of the right hon. gentleman. The committee of council
have considered the minute to which my right hon. friend
refers. We do not propose to enforce that minute. It will
be cancelled ; and we propose that by another minute,
power shall be given to the clergyman to appeal to the
Lord President of the Council and the bishop of the dio-
cese, in cases of a schoolmaster of immoral conduct and im-
moral habits. It is certainly possible, in some cases, that
a schoolmaster of immoral conduct and immoral habits
might be screened by the partiality and indulgence of the
lay committee. In such a case we propose not, as under
the minute to which my right hon. friend refers, an appeal
to the bishop, but an appeal to the President of the Coun-
cil and the bishop of the diocese, who shall appoint an in-
spector and the incumbent to make an investigation.
Mr. W. J. FOX was very glad to find that the noble
lord recognised the principle of an educational rate, as he
thought that a most important step in the progress of in-
struction. (Hear, hear.) He never could comprehend the
objections to the State interfering to secure the rights of
children and their own rights. The State had a right to
expect that society should not have turned upon it from
time to time large bodies of uninstructed and almost un-
civilised beings, ripe for immorality and crime ; and chil-
dren, because of the neglect or loss of parents, ought not
to be deprived of that traininc, of their faculties which
every human being had a right to enjoy. (Hear.) Much,
however, of the virtue of a rate for education depended
upon its being generally levied and distributed according
to recognised and impartial principles. Unless that were
the case, they would be introducing into borough the
struggles which prevailed 'among religious societies and
educational associations—they would be adding another
item to that great mass of antagonism which caused so
much disturbance and confusion in our social system—
they would be throwing down the prize of public money
in boroughs for different sects and congregations, for dif-
ferent churches and different bodies to contend for, as they
would assuredly contend, and that, too, in a manner which
would desecrate education by mixing up with it topics of
political strife. (Hear, bear.) Therefore, any partial
levying of the rate would be very inexpedient. The noble
lord gave as a reason for retaining this mixed system of
payments by children, benevolent contributions, and
public support, amongst other reasons, the fact that nearly
half a million of money was now contributed towards the
schools by the children's pence ; but if this contribution,
large as it might appear, were closely examined, he thought
some very material reduction must be made from it. It
was called children's pence, but it must not be understood
the sum of a penny was paid by each child, because very
many paid three, and four, and even six times that
amount—indeed, such a payment as would entitle them
to instruction at a private school. (Hear, hear.) He
believed the way to make grants most conducive to the
the increase of education, was to let the amount of remune-
ration be governed, not by the number of children, but by
the attainments they acquired ; to institute something like
an inquiry, by the inspectors, into what had actually been
taught, and to apportion the amount of money aid accord-
ing to the amount of instruction actually given, and the
amount of education realised in the children of each school.
This would be a stimulus which would operate very
strongly in raising the character of education ; and an-
other might be added, of conferring the suffrage and the
rights of political citizenship upon those who attained to
a certain amount of erudition. Another matter to be con-
sidered was the emoluments of the schoolmasters, which at
preient were so inadequate that no man of educated mind
and possessed of the necessary habits and qulifications for
instructing children would undertake the office. They
ought to be (placed in a better position, not only as re-
garded revenue, but as regarded independence—for they
were too often placed under the control of persons who
were by no means able either to guide their instructions
or correct their errors. (Hear, hear.) He, ought perhaps,
to apologise to the house for ha` ing gone into such a mi-
nute criticism upon a measure which had only that even-
ing been brought under their notice ; but his excuse was,
that the topic was one in which a deep interest was felt
throughout the country. (Hear, hear.) He could not but
hope, that as the discussion proceeded the scheme would
be enlarged, so as at length to become really comprehen-
sive and worthy of the name of " national ;" and certainly
he was disposed to believe that the recognition of a rate by
the noble lord had laid the foundation of an edifice which
would not only do honour to his own name, but redound
to the happiness and glory of the country. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. E. BALL could not but consider it as a subject for
great gladness and joy on the part of the country that no
less a sum than 500,000/. was annually contributed in pence
by the poor towards the education of their children. He
wished to know what the hon. members for Montrose and
Manchester meant when they talked of excluding religion
from the schools? If they meant that they would not
permit the Bible to be introduced into the schools, he
could only say that he would do every thing he could to
oppose their views ; for he could not believe that any sys-
tem of education could be considered a national benefit
which excluded the Bible. He had no desire to enforce
sectarian religion upon any one, but he must insist upon
the reading of the word of God. (Hear, hear.) He hoped
therefore that the Government would never give their as-
sent, much less their authority and sanction' to any system
of education which excluded the word of God. (Hear,
hear.)
Sir R. INGLIS said that, while he was not usually
happy enough to be able to agree with the hon. membea
for the city of Manchester, he was bound to say that on
one point, at least, they approached to something like an
agreement on the present occaoischetuiotthreochtotneh,einaccnrdoemastmhedaittgvLvtieanost,:thpAartnive(ilyt,
would be impossible to establish a system of united secular
e
and religious education by means of a school-rate in any
corporate town whatever. Certainly, the right hon gen-
tleman's own city of Manchester
enhiulrofoeeetewndfiwiterintroduce
shetseihsrtnenineritco.ototesfht( cases would
wherenot t
h support
trustees
d rated
for such a combined system. (Hear, hear.) With regard
w
to the proposals which the noble lord had brought under
their notice that evening, he would only then say that he
saw great difficulties in the way of their adoption, and
that he hoped to be permitted at the proposed time to
state his objections in full. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. MANNERS said that, when the right hon.
lgoerndtlewmhaenthtehre
tmheemGheorvefroolrm2teMhoato
minute of Council of the
had the effect of placing the Church
intention
labour under the misapprehension
eo
u Manchester
cibJunelllieteltesihhnet efador.tlefadtasEhTts ako'thhtehe
ldmeal cancelnis negdhehuemettcen he
hodhotbeoahtnll the
what the
he
remove
ou
heenmned givetonel
vreo
meht htleaehuenar soleotiieradmnd control:iyseianntptoapi
nrrtentirely
misapprehension,
answering
the clergymen
mistaken
jbeeeeurncgt:
the
was
to
remedy
of that minute. Its solo question,
°tont
bohjoneef'
cc:el tgdnrparish
h;
seemednandgto
the Exchequer—first,
t to bring into operation their minute cancel-
Governmen
a
s
• te of the 12th of June last, before submitting
to thenconscience.
as
kG tohv ee rnnombl
ono
ltaorrd believedhear.) Before
nht
Boeh
irehfiseot
absence,r
favttaerwhni
ioe ctadae:tl
ta
:siai
consideration
sweigetoi
aohtcor
toihnidoebnl
ehiloor
toeoloawdecfsftrnnihtetxotbhhioinht:te rightieneen
sconrew:tilafohabes
hlrlmtt
ragged
eff
ling the minute
r
house, and before it should have received that discussion
which its importance merited ? Second whether the bill
Tt
nn
session,de d t
which bo
iNttsElscvtvhocchohnllwi
ouprgiiotcet
nil
aoil itahar
tc,lhnsi i
licttaiciwtohswpaae
aisnanirtsdeeaotyi
ktinownhewt ee
atagenr
tevele
emseeicbdai ol
rd- h; e tahnerL: fwsi
hsetemiepon in a particular trustrirt,hnaoegtr
nr separate eowf acesaysieeni
Iprnvaroatotsep intendedohsi agreeellproposed
owar ietvhaaaetr
variation
stated period, to introduce a general measure laci:nomhinceatrihoosinetethriptneeaigret.
all the particular alterations of the Committee of Council ?
In conclusion, he begged to say for himself, that he fully
agreed in the wisdom and justice of the course which was
taken by Lord Derby's Government last year on this sub-
ject, and that he was perfectly ready to vindicate the