The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-23 00:00:00

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The Earl of DERBY would recommend the right rev.
prelate to dismiss the last topic of his speech altogether
from his mind. If he really thought that the Govern-
ment would hold themselves bound to grant any equi-
table compensation to the Church of Canada in the event
of her property being alienated, the more prudent course
for him would be, before he joined in the act which
might render such compensation necessary, to ascertain
from the Government how far they would be disposed to
answer his expectations—(a laugh)—and in the answer
being in the negaqve, it would be impossible for him to
support the second reading if he seriously entertained
the view he had expressed. He did not-intend to pro-
__

t act the discussion, for the arguments as to the justice
and legality of the question had been completely ex-
hausted by his noble and learned friend. (Hear, hear.)
He had demonstrated beyond the possibility of dispute
or cavil that the property with regard to which they
were about to legislate never was for a moment at the
disposal of the Canadian Legislature. Previous to 1791
the clergy reserves were the property of the Crown by
right of conquest. They were appropriated by the
Crown to the maintenance of the Protestant clergy, and

a certain extent of dealing with that appropriation- wa
given to the Legislature of Canada under the act of '
1791 ; but all the power they could ever exercise over
the reserves was the power given them by that act.
Setting out from that act the power of the Legislature
was limited by it, and whatever power they had pos-
sessed since that time over the clergy reserves was not
limited by the act of 1840. From 1791 downwards there
had not been a succe,•sion of restrictions, but a series of '
concessions made by the Crown and Parliament, with
whom the dominion over these clergy reserves rested, to
the Canadian Legislature. And this view of the case at
once disposed, summarily and conclusively, of the claim
of strict legal right put forward by the colony of Canada.
The question now only remained as to the policy of the '
appropriation of the reserves, It might be the policy of '
this country to grant to the colonial Legislature still
greater power than it already had granted. It was
undoubtedly the right of the Legislature to withhold '
these powers, but it might be the policy of the Imperial
Government not to do so. The powers conferred, how-
ever, were not the inherent right of the Canadian Legis-
lature, but the free grant of the Crown and Parlia-
ment. On the other hand, he was ready frankly '
to admit that as the colony advanced in intelligence
and wealth, and approached to that state in which
its
he must say dependence on this country was
a nominal rather than a real state of existence—(hear)
—from the time they conferred representative insti-
tutions on Canada—and the same observation would '
apply to other colonies—it was, in his opinion, a matter
of policy to keep a lighter and lighter hold over matters
of internal policy (loud cheers from the Minis-
terial benches)—and to grant to the colony a continually
increasing superintendence over its own affairs. (Re-
newed cheers.) And the extent to which those conces-
sions were to be made by Parliament was only to be
limited by the considerations involved. But he could
not admit that the question of the appropriation of the
clergy reserves was a local question7it appeared to him
to be a question in which imperial interests were con-
cerned—(hear, hear)—and when the
.same power was
brought to bear on the Roman Catholic and Protestant
institutions in the colony, it was difficult to contend
that the legal maintenance of the control exercised over
the Roman Catholics was a matter of general concern,
and they were to keep that in their own hands, whilst
the maintenance of the Protestant clergy was only mat-
ter of local interest. He should be disposed to strain
the point on the part of the Parliament of
.this county/
for the purpose of doing that which he believed to be
the wish of a great majority of the people of Canada.
(Hear, hear.) The measure of 1840 was intended to be
a permanent and final settlement ; and he frankly de-
clared that no consideration on earth—not the chance,

if there would be a chance, of severing even that nomi-
nal dependence of Canada on this country—should in-
duce him to take a step which he could not reconcile to
his conscience, and which he believed would be produc-
tive of the most serious evils. He would not, therefore,
as a Minister have interfered with the settlement of
1840. To a certain extent the position had been altered
by the way in which the matter had been taken up by
the present Government, By two successive Govern-
ments promises had been given to the people of Canada
to give them a large control over the clergy reserves ;
and a large portion of the Legislature of Canada was
anxious to obtain that power. He could not shut his
eyes to the fact that the other house of Parliament had
sanctioned the principle of the bill, and, thus circum-
stanced, he was anxious to go to the utmost limit to
which he felt he could go, without infringing those
solemn obligations of honour and good faith which ought
to be dearer than any other consideration. (Hear.) Ho
had risen principally for the purpose of saying that, in
the condition in which they then stood he was anxious
to find the possible means of not meeting this bill with a
strict negative ' • and he was prepared, therefore, to pre-
sent to their lordships a proposition in committee, if -
they should pass the second reading of the bill; whereby
power would be given to the Legislature of Canada
more extensive than that given by the act of 1791, but
maintaining inviolate all appropriation which had here-
tofore been made, not for the lives of individuals who
had a secondary interest, but maintaining as a perma-
nent provision—be it for the Church of England, be it
for the Church of Scotland—all appropriation which,
either under the act of 1827 or the act of 1840, had
been already r:'-lotted and solemnly given over, not to in-
d"viduals, but to trustees in trust for the benefit of those
churches for ever, maintaining those strictly and in-
violably. (Hear.) He spoke for himself alone : he
would waive all the great and serious objections which
he entertained to the bill, and which would have pre-
vented him as a Minister from ever submitting it to
Parliament—if he could obtain such a modife Ltion of
the measure as would say in effect that that which had
been allotted and appropriated, under the authority of
Parliament, by solemn compact, by legislative act under
the assent of the Crown, should be held inviolable—
being the property of the Churches of England and
Scotland—as inviolable as if it was the private property
of any of their lordships. (Hear, hear.) He should
have to propose this in committee, and to explain his
views perhaps at sonic length. It could not be of local,
but imperial interest, that the engagements which they
had entered into—those rights of property which they
had affirmed—those estates which they handed over--
those funds which they had vested in trustees—should
not, by an act of tyrannical power, in obedience to
the unreasonable demands of the Colonial Legislature,
be set aside. (Hear, hear.) That could n)t be a
matter of local, but of the highest imperial, interest.
(Hear, hear.) He was anxious to have an oppor-
tunity of submitting this to their lordship's considera-
tion ; and should they be induced to accept such a com-
promise he would, however reluctantly—with the hope
that such a concession might lead to peace— ivaive his
objection to the measure, and assent to the third reading
of the bill. But if they insisted that the measure should
not be prospective only, but retrospective also—if they
violated the engagements they had entered into, and
plundered parties of property which they had bestowed
upon them, then no consideration on earth- -not even
the dismemberment of the empire itself—should induce
him to set his hand to a bill of that description, and say
"content," whatever m:glit be the hazard of saying
" not content." (Hear.)
Earl GREY did not understand the noble earl to say
that he should not vote for the amendment, and the
proposition that he had offered would virtually defeat
the bill, although he had thrown out the expression of a
hope that it might pass, by common consent, on the
third reading. Ile would state the grounds on which he
thought the bill shasaenccnuuaaaldsnddsiapnass in its integrity. For a mo-
ment he would allude to the observations which fell from
the right rev, prelate early in the debate. It appeared
to him that the right rev. prelate had entered into an
able argut en., and displayed his logical powers very un-
necessarily, to prove that the imperial Parliament, was
supreme, for that was a proposition which lie believed
the noble duke who moved the second reading of the
bill would not be disposed to dispute. It was one
thing to have a power, another to use it. They have
undoubtedly the power to carry the measure now before
them into effect, a,n...1 as long as they used the power for
an imperial purpose, they were right in exerting. It had
been endeavoured to show that if this measure were car-
ried the Roman Catholic Church would be in a some-
what different position from that in which it now was.
Technically that might be so, but substantially it cer-
tainly was not the fact. Objection also had been made
to the extent of the measure, but it 'concede I all that had
been asked. If hereafter the colony should ask for more
it would be time to grant it. He could not but express
his regret that the noble earl opposite (the Earl of
Derby), who had held such high situations in the
of
the -
vernment, had not given the house his__ opinionHe(Barl Grey)
effect of rejecting this measure..
begged
of this that the rejection
sureto conceal his impression
t st danger to the con
eggHedouteseroefmcinodmtmtioenisiou(sseirthja.tia,akrirnlgitt.ohno)nd.idbanroontesteeikn
was fraught with the greatest
if they rejected
to the conclusions that the bill
had come
would enter into a controversy with the Parliament
they
of Canada, which would only end either by this country
nexion of this country with Canada.
giving way, or by the colony, intcooa
separating itself from us. (Cheers,) The question was
aidniiannasaParliament ought questionnot to
regulating the internal affairs of that
Legislature were to give way,
colony.
oaoaal
v:ssve,
nrtiywtnah. whether eca tpnlhi mere
upe‘etr :reeiern thecod Canada
in his opi • mon they would not be d •
their constituents. )3 doing their duty to
But, at this day, no one would
think of endeavouring t
line of action. Much o coerce a great colony into any
the bill would do to the Church. had
been said of the injury whfch
the Churchof Englande He would ask, would
or of Scotland be a gainer, if we
were to insist upon rejecting this measure, and so lose
ill easy
view.
steps,
I t
the colony ? This was a case in which the entrance to
the quarrel should be avoided. But what were the mo-
tives which had been urged for the rejecting of this bill ?
There appeared to be two grounds—first, that the reli-
gious interests of the colonists ought not to be neglected ;
and secondly, that, for some reason or another, we were
bound in honour to keep up the existing arrangements.
While be admitted that the provision for the religion of
the population was of vast importance, it was also true
that, if they forced upon a people a religious endowment
it did far more harm than good to religion ; it disposed
the people against their pastors. From experience he
was persuaded that there was no cause which had tended
more to prevent the Church of England obtaining a just
influence over the colonies than the impression that it was
more favoured by the governing powers than other
religious sects. As to their being bound in honour to
keep up the present arrt.ngemenls, he should be glad to
know with whom the supposed contract was made,
and who would be injured by its being broken. Thg
could not put their finger upon any one individualtowtillioe
would suffer. Certainly there could be no injury
enabled to do as
Canadian people, who were only to beenaof the Church
they pleased. It was said that the rights
noble and learned
lord were about to be interfered with. A
had spoken of the Church as if it were au actual
constitutional tnusFel ityoioor. r;
nt
a:himself' he