The Sun.
London, England, 1853-06-11 00:00:00

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to a diminution of 2,000,000 gallons brought to charge in
Scotland. As for illicit distillation, why a large still had
lately been discovered in the woods abort his (Mr. B.ailhe 0
house. There were 16 men engaged in working it, and
they completely beat off the police. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. M`GREGOR did not dispute the facts mentioned
by the right hon. gentleman, but the circumstances of
Scotland had completely changed since 1826. It was quite
true that illicit stills were now occasionally worked in that
country, but the same thing occurred to a far greater ex-
tent in London. (Hear, hear.) And what was the reason?
The enormous amount of duty levied on Englis'a spirits as
compared with Irish and Scotch. His principle would be
to equalise the duties, whether excise or custom, on all
spirits, whether English, Irish, Scotch, colonial or foreign.
Mr. M`MAHON protested against the proposal of Go-
vernment as a most unjustifiable attempt to increase the
existing restrictions on agriculturists, who were already
most unfairly treated as compared with the manufacturers.
Colonel DUNNE said the inevitable increase of illicit
spirits which the augmented duty would cause would be a
greatinjury to Ireland. Recently the temperance move-
ment had made much progress there ; but this would re-
tard. There were numerous places of concealment in Ire-
land where illicit stills might be worked, and be entirely
beyond the reach of the police. The augmented duty
would not repay the cost of its collection as additional
police and other officers would be necessary ; and the in-
jury to the morals of the people generally would be enor-
mous. The army would be affected by it ;at present many
of the Irish soldiers had been brought up in temperate
habits ; but the change proposed would give an impetus to
drunkenness. He should oppose the bill entirely.
Mr. WCANN said the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
stated that the ordinary police in Ireland would be em-
ployed to assist the officers of the revenue. He should de-
plore any such step, as it would be fatal to that admirable
force, who were daily becoming more popular in the coun-
try. They were scattered over an open district in groups
of three or four, and without the support of the people
they would be wholly ineffective. The revenue police was
sufficiently well organised, and it would be better to in-
crease that body than divert the regular police from their
duties. He was not opposed to the increase of the duty.
Sir J. YOUNG said that great caution ought to be and
no doubt would be used in employing the ordinary police
for the collection of revenue. At present, no resolution
had been come to of the kind which the hon. gentleman
supposed. He concurred with the honourable gentleman
in thinking that the Irish constabulary had the general
confidence of the people, and this was owing to their'uni-
form good conduct. (Hear, hear.) The practice of illicit
distillation had not at any time prevailed generally over
Ireland. In some large counties—Meath, for instance
—there had been scarcely any. It had. been for the
most part confined to the poorer and more hilly districts,
where oats were extensively grown, and the people were
generally poor. The want of roads in those districts
had also stimulated illicit distillation, but in the last
twenty years much had been done to remedy this. The
people were now enabled to bring their oats to market,
and there was no necessity for them to resort to illicit dis-
tillation. There were good grounds to hope that this very
small increase of duty might be safely made. A few years
ago there was great excitement about allowances being
made for waste in bond ; and it was said that if the dis-
tillers had this concession made, they were quite ready to
submit to a shilling duty. This had been done ; and tak-
ing the allowance at an average of 2d. only, the increase
of duty was really 6t1., and not Bd. per gallon. He hoped
that the question of employing the constabulary would be
reconsidered ; the increase of duty was so small that it
might not be necessary. Illicit distillation prevailed very
partially; farmers had greater facilities for bringing their
oats to market, and the wages of labour were so good that
he hoped the people would not fall into these practices.
Mr. GEORGE complained that no answer had been
given to Col. Jones's,statistics. The question had not been
considered as one of Irish taxation at all. The important
consideration was whether the proposed increase would
have the effect of increasing or diminishing the revenue
from Irish spirits. A tabular statement for the last 21
years showed that the amount of duty and the amount of
revenue realised were exactly in an inverse ratio to each
other. Whenever the duty had been increased, the re-
venue had fallen ; and vice versa. The increase of duty
had so greatly increased the temptation to illicit distilla-
tion, that the result had been a great increase of crime.
It was said that the distiller had received a boon in the
allowance for waste. This amounted at the utmost to
40,0001. or 50,0001. ; while this proposed increase of duty
was no less than 238,000/. (Hear, and cries of "divide.")
Not only would the increased duty cause an increase of
illicit distillation, but it might lead to illicit practices in
the regular distilleries. He also deprecated the employ-
ment of the Irish constabulary in aid of the revenue
police. To make them spies and informers would destroy
the confidence of the country, and render the force use-
less. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
give his best attention to the tables that had been referred
to, showing that every increase of duty had diminished
the revenue, and tended to demoralise the people.
The committee then divided—v
For the amendment 3B
Against it

Majority
On our re-admission to the gallery,
Mr. CRAUFURD was addressing the committee. He
was understood to say that the distillers would not object
to the increased duty on spirits if they were allowed to
distil from malt.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN said the Scotch distillers enjoyed a
great advantage over the Irish distillers in the matter of
the drawback. In 17 years the former had received draw-
backs to the amount of no less than 4,248,584/. ; while the
Irish distillers had received in the same period only
70,2111. This was felt by the Irish distillers to be a great
grievance.
Mr. J. MACGREGOR said he wished to see all spirit
duties equalised, wherever the article was produced. He
would support this bill, but regretted that it did not go
to the extent he had suggested.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped the
members of the committee, and especially Irish members,
would bear in mind the emphatic testimony to the modera-
tion of his proposition which had been borne by Mr. Mac-
gregor. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) No doubt it was
very difficult to make this question of spirit duties at all
intelligible to the uninitiated ; he hardly knew a more
hopeless task. A cruel contest had long been raging be.

tween Ireland and Scotland on the subject of the malt
drawback enjoyed by the latter. He believed that, while
Scotland was anxious to retain that drawback, she took
very little interest in the question of allowances for waste
—a boon which had just been conceded to the Irish dis-
tillers ; and as it was customary with Irish distillers to
keep their spirits longer in the warehouse, in order that
they might acquire a mellow flavour, that allowance was
of more importance to them. (Hear,hear.) He did not
propose to snake any change with regard to the malr
drawback ; but he would give the committee the assurance
that the whole question was under the careful con-
sideration of the Government,—whether it was possible to
not to arrange a system by which distillers might be en-
abled to distil from duty-free malt. (Hear, hear.) That
would be an immense boon to Scotland ; and it might be
the means of assisting them to a settlement of this great
spirit duty question on a larger and broader basis. (Hear,
hear.) The Irish distillers, who objected strongly to the
drawback of the Scotch distillers, would be perfectly well
satisfied to have the boon of distilling from duty-free malt,
though undoubtedly that would be a greater advantage to
the Scotch distillers. Such a proposal it would be im-
possible to connect with the present bill, on account of
the vast amount of revenue dependent on the collection of
the malt duties, and the necessity of avoiding any opening
for their wholesale evasion ; these were matters which re-
quired the most minute, detailed, and elaborate consider-
ation. A great question of that kind must be made to
wait upon the political convenience of putting forward a
fiscal measure like the one before the house. The ques-
tion would receive the most serious consideration ; to him
it would be a matter of great satisfaction if they were
able to arrange it ; but at the same time, after the very
fair concession that had been made for wasteage, he
thought that Ireland should be content to allow the
Scotch distillers to enjoy their drawback on malt. Though
that malt drawback appeared to impose an extra duty on
Scotch whisky as compared with grain spirits, the differ-
ence in reality did not amount to so much as was sup-
posed, owing to the improvements which had taken place
in the mode of distilling. (Hear, hear.)
Sir T. O'BRIEN said it was the practice of the Scotch
distillers to ship their whisky in Ireland and get the
drawback there ; the spirit remained in the warehouse
perhaps ten years, and the distiller enjoyed the advantage
all that time. It was not just to allow half the draw-
back to the Scotch, and deny it to the Irish distillers.
After a few words from Captain JONES, clause 1 was
agreed to, as were clauses up to 15,
On clause 15,
Mr. BOWYER hoped the right hon. gentleman, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, would give some explana-
tion why the same allowance was not made for waste on
Irish spirits in bond which was made on foreign and colo-
nial spirits.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
with respect to the waste of spirits a good deal depended
on the nature of the spirit, and on the nature of the vessel
in which it was kept, but there was no difficulty whatever
in ascertaining what the amount of waste was. The maxi-
mum allowance for waste was one gallon in every 100 gal-
lons at hydrometer proof. On the quarter ending January,
1853, upon 2,000,000 gals. of spirits distilled in England,
and charged with the excise duty, the waste was is. 3d.
per cent. In Scotland, upon 1,250,000 gals., the decrease
by waste was 1-Bth per cent., and upon more than 1,500,000
gals. In Ireland, during the same quarter, the decrease
for waste was 1-sth per cent. There was no difficulty
therefore in ascertaining the waste. And that being so,
he thought it better to take the actual waste as it was
found, than have recourse to one general rule.
Mr. GROGAN had no doubt that the greatest accuracy
existed in ascertaining the amount of waste ; but why not
place the Irish spirits and foreign and colonial spirits on
the same footing ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
observation of the hon. gentleman was more applicable to
the rules and regulations of the Board of Customs than to
the bill under discussion.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN said the rules and regulations of the
Excise were in such a confused state, that the distillers did
not know when they were acting in conformity with the
law or otherwise. He wished to know whether the right
hon. gentleman would promise a general revision of the
laws on this subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
think the hardship could be• so- very vievous, because no
representations had been made to him on the subject by
the distillers. He would give his best attention to any such
representations.
Col. DUNNE said that great complaints h:td been made
by the Irish distillers as to the state of the law,
Mr. Sergeant MURPHY asked whether, as the new duty
was imposed on the 21st April, and the allowance s'or waste
was not to be made till the bill passed, the right hon. gen-
tleman would not so alter the bill as to make the allow-
ance for waste contemporaneous with the imposition of the
new duty.
The' CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
sine ertake that they should take effect simultaneously.
Mr. FRENCH said that there were between 30,000 and
40,000 puncheons of spirits in bond in Dublin, and he
wished to know if the allowance for waste would be made
with respect to them ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EtCHEQUER said it
was quite impossible to allow for wastage retrospectively.
The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses up to 20.
_ ..):I'!se remaining clauses were then agreed to, and the house
_dving al:m;(1, the chairman reported progress. The bill
• s ordered to be reprinted.
CUSTOMS DUTIES ON SPIRITS BILL. '
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