The Sun.
London, England, 1853-07-06 00:00:00

direct legislative enactment. He trusted therefore that the be most happy to listen to it ; but if not he hoped he
house would pause before it gave its assent to the introduc- would allow him to proceed with his motion. (Hear.)
tion of the proposed measure. Mr. DISRAELI believed he was strictly in order, in
Lord PALMERSTON said he did not mean to offer the rising to move that the house do now adjourn. (Oh, oh !
and
J. no !)
slightest opposition to the introduction of the measure Sir J. SHELLEY rose amid groans and hootings from
which the hon. member for Oldham proposed to lay before the Opposition. He rose to order. The hon. member for
the house ; but at the same time he should reserve to him- Reading was in possession of the house, and he asked if it
self the privilege of taking that course which he might was competent in that case for the right hon. gentleman to
deem most advisable upon the second reading of the bill.
move the adjournment? (Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER said, he had ca, lled upon
the hon. mem-
He (Lord Palmerston) had intended to bring in a measure ber for Reading, and he supposed when the right hon. gen-
for the purpose of limiting the hours of the employment of tleman rose that it was his intention to put to him a ques-
children in our manufactures, and in that measure he had tion on the subject of his motion.
Proposed to insert a provision to the effect that children Mr. DISRAELI would not repeat his motion for an ad-
journment ; but he would ask the hon. member for Rellsl-
should not be employed in our factories at an earlier hour
than six in the morning or at a later hour than six in the ing. whether he thought it fair to bring forwarda motion
evening. At the present moment children might be engaged such as that on the paper at an hour when it would be
than
at half-past five in morning and kept at work until half-past impossible for the house to listen to anything more
six or even seven in the evening. Those children had to the charge ? (Hear, hear.)
walk in many instances three or four miles from their Mr. H. KEATING should be very sorry to have the
homes to the places
,at which they were employed, and had appearance of doing anything unfair, especially with re-
to accomplish that journey alone in dark and inclement ference to a motion of no inary importance. At the
same time, the right hon. gentleman must recollect that
winter weather. It was not, therefore, a matter of sur-
prise that in the case of those children the mortality which he was a private member of the house, and could not com-
was said to prevail should be considerable in its extent. mend his own time as to bringing forward the motion.
It would be no doubt a matter of considerable delicacy to He should be extremely sorry to press the motion under
interfere by legislative enactment with the employment of 1 such circumstances as would prevent an answer being
those persons who, being of age were supposed to be able heard from the other side of the house ; but, if he put off
to determine for themselves, and who ought to be consi- he motion, he did not know when h
ring it on again. (Hear, hear.) Unless a day was given
e would be able to
dered as free agents, and therefore as at liberty to work as '
long as they pleased. His own opinion was, that the mill- him by the Government he must proceed with his motion
owners were not pursuing their real interests in dealing now. (" Go on.")
with those whom they employed as if they were mere ma- Mr. DISR A ELI suggested that the hon. gentleman
should appeal to the noble lord the leader of the Govern-
chines, and as if the longer they could work them the went in that house for a day. (Cries of "Go on !")
greater would be their own profits. He believed thos. e
Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped the noble lord would re-
employers would act much more wisely if they were to lease the hon. gentleman from his difficulty. As a mem-
proceed upon the principle that their workmen were moral ber of the late Government he wished to say that he did
and intelligent agents, and were to consider that, unless not shrink from this discussion, and that he would be pre-
those workmen obtained that moderate degree of leisure pared to meet any charge that could be brought forward.
essential to their well-being, they would be unable to get r" Order, order !")
through the same amount of work which, under a better Lord J. RUSSELL could only say that the Government
system, they would have no difficulty in executing. It business was of such pressing importance, that it would
might be said that to limit the number of hours for labour beimpossible for him to assign a day in the meantime.
in the case of children would indirectly tend to limit those
1 (Cries of " Go on !"
hours in the case of persons who were advanced in age. • •
Mr. H. KEATING then Such might be the result of the proceeding ; but he could proceeded with his motion,
by no means look upon the probability of such a result which was as follows :—" That, referring to the report of
t question aking pl
in the as ood season for refusing to manner which he had indicated . l dea with
He had the the Select Committee on Dockyard Promotions,
and the
no objection to offer to the introduction of the bill of the
evidence upon which it is founded, this house is
of opinion
hon. gentleman ; but he had to state that it was his inten-
that during the administration of the late Board of Admi-
tion to introduce a measure for the limited purpose he had ralty the patronage of dockyard promotions and the influ-
mentioned. (Hear, hear.) ence of the Admiralty were used and exercised for political
manner Lord JOHN MANNERS thought that Lord Palmer- purposes to an extent and in a
calculated to reflect
condemned the Compro the Government, and
ston's plan would not gmise Act, ao far enougsseh,
rted the right and he energsetof theically
discredit upon that department of
to impair the efficiency of the service." He begged to as-
operatives to their charter, the Ten Hours Bill, and de-
nounced the fraudulent conduct of the millowners, pursued sure the house that he had given notice of this motion
for the sake of sordid pecuniary gain. He demanded that under a very deep conviction that the report recently laid
on the table on the subject of dockyard promotions ren-
the penalties for breach of the act should be made far
larger and more effectual. He warmly supported the bill.
Sir G. GREY expressed gratification at the results of dered an expression of the opinion of the house on the
the acts he had assisted in passing, and he remarked upon important facts stated in that report absolutely necessary.
the exaggerations in Lord J. Manners' speech, and charged (Hear.) When the hon. baronet (Sir B, Hall) brought this
him with stating exceptional instances as the rule in manu- subject originally before the house, he stated in a clear
lecturing districts. He defended the Compromise Act, and able speech that an alteration of an important kind
which, he showed from Mr. Horner's report, had mainly
had conduced to the present favourable condition of the opera- been made by the late Board of Admiralty in an unu-
tives, and he stated that nineteen-twentieths of the menu- anal, if not irregular, way, with reference to the cancella-
facturers faithfully conformed to that act. He regretted tion of a circular issued by their predecessors which regu-
that Lord Palmerston had not given a more decided nega- lated promotion in the dockyards, and he also stated he
tive to the principle of the proposed measure. had reason to believe that this proceeding was adopted
Mr. I. BUTT said that practices were going on in many with a view to the coming elections, and for poli-
mills directly in violation of the law. Young women were tiea 1 purposes. After considerable discussion the motion
concealed in hiding-places to evade the inspectors ; and as of
the hon. baronet was agreed to, and a committee ap-
these practices were resorted to, the question necessarily pointed. That committee was extremely well qualified
raised was, whether the law was to be enforced or not ? for the task assigned to it, chosen it was from both sides
The factory operatives were fully justified in coming for- of the house, end comprisingmenaeof station, great know-
ward and saying that the question was not yet settled lodge of business and an considerable Parliamentaryi expe-
They had an undoubted right to say, " You "have not set-, rience—(hear, hear)—presided over by a noble lord whose
tied the question; if it were a compromise we had no part great talents for business all who came in contact with him
in it." Upon what was the legislation on this subject well knew, and whose exalted rank and acquaintance with
founded ? It was founded upon evidence brought before official life rendered him peculiarly fit for the discharge of
the house that 10 hours' labour was the utmost limit that such a duty. (Hear, hear.) But he had another qualifi-
children could endure. The question, therefore, had never cation, for he was chairman of the committee which sat in
been settled, and until alO hours' bill were passed, it 1848 on the estimates of the navy, army, and ordnance.
never would be settled. (Hear, hear.) The committee, constituted as he had de-
Mr. W. J. FOX expressed his concurrence in the object scribed, ably and faithfully discharged their duty, and the
contemplated by his hon. colleague in introducing this public at large regarded their proceedings with the greatest
bill. The intense interest felt by his constituents for the possible anxiety. (Hear.) He did not exaggerate the
last 30 cr 40 years in this question was paramount to all state of the public feeling when he said there never was a
interest felt by them in any political questions, knowing committee of that house the proceedings of which were
that the object of the present measure was to restore to watched with more interest. (Hear.) The committee
them the half-hour which the bill of 1847 was intended to made their reports to the house, and, confining itself
give to them, and which, by a subsequent act, had been un- strictly to the terms of the reference which had been made
generously taken away from them. The arrangement of to it, contented itself with stating facts, and gave no opi-
-1847 was satisfactory to the working people ; but that act nion whatever on those facts. In his opinion the corn-
broke down from a technical defect, and then advantage mittee acted wisely in so doing. The inquiry committed
was taken to get rid of the arrangement itself, and a very to them was one not only of an important, but of a very
unsatisfactory arrangement was substituted for it. Coin- delicate matter, and he thought when the terms of the re-
ciding with the object of his hon. colleague, he would re- ference to the committee were considered, it would be seen
serve his opinion as to the means of accomplishing that ob- that they exercised a wise discretion, and that it would
ject until the bill was before the house. The proposition have been too much of that house to ask the committee to
made by the noble lord (Palmerston) for taking care of the pronounce an opinion on a matter of so much delicacy.
children was very valuable so far as it went, but the noble (Hear, hear.) [The hon. gentleman here read the terms of
lord should remember that protection was required not for the motion appointing the committee.] The report which
children only, but for women and young persons. It was was laid on the table could only be appreciated after a
not after the age at which persons were allowed to go into very minute acquaintance with the evidence on which it
the mills that mortality prevailed. It was anterior to that was founded. It gave no conclusions ; but, as a masterly
time that the evil occurred. The evil was the effect of the analysis of the evidence, he had no hesitation in saying
occupation upon the physical condition of the women, and that the report was one of the ablest documents ever laid
it was with them that the mortality required to be abated. on the table of the house. The committee had reported
He admitted it was a delicate question to interfere with the facts of the case to the house, and those facts, what-
the machinery and working of the factories; but there ever aspect any Parliamentary conventional notion might
was another question—how else were they to enforce the give to them, were considered important and startling
law ? Had they enforced it ? If not, would they enforce by the country at large. (Hear, hear.) It was with a
it ? Hitherto, notoriously that had not been done. If all deep conviction that an expression of opinion on the part
the power of Government could not make the employers of the house upon those facts deeply involved its credit,
obey the law, then some measure must be had recourse to that he ventured to ask the assent of the house to his
to compel them to obey it. motion. (Hear, hear.) He had framed the motion with
Mr. PATTEN said, it would seem by the observations a sincere desire to avoid giving to it the appearance
of the noble lord that the practice was a systematic evasion of personal hostility to any person whatever ; and
of the law on the part of the millowners. he need scarcely for his own part disclaim entertaining any.
Lord J. MANNERS disclaimed having said anything of such feeling, for he had not the slightest personal ac-
the kind. quaintance with any person mentioned in the report of the
Mr. PATTEN was sure the noble lord did not intend to committee ; and it would be foreign to his nature to wish
say it, but his words implied it. Now, representing a to convert a great public question into a personal matter.
county in which there were large manufacturing interests, Indeed, he felt it would not comport with the dignity of
he should not do his duty if he did not say that in Lance- the house, nor with the feeling of the people of the country
shire the law was generally acted up to, not only in the to seek after the precise part taken by any person in any-
spirit, but in the letter. No doubt there were instances in thing mentioned in the report, for what was the important
which there were evasions. But he considered it would be matter was, the system which the report disclosed ; and it
a very great misfortune to raise a discussion again on this was against that system, and that system alone, that his
question, which could only have the effect of setting master resolution was directed. (Hear, hear,) The right hon.
against man. If the noble lord (Palmerston) was contem- gentleman opposite, therefore, was mistaken in supposing
plating putting a restriction upon the moving power in the that the resolution was levelled at anything more than
mills, he hoped an opportunity would be given to the what was expressed therein—namely, the system which
country to consider what was intended by the Government was unfortunately adopted with respect to dockyard pro-
to be done. He could imagine nothing more mischievous motions by the late Board of Admiralty. The house was
than to disturb the motive power with which the mann- aware than in 1847 the state of the dockyardsattracted the
factoring classes were connected. serious attention of the then Board of Admiralty, presided
Lord PALMERSTON said, that the only motive power over by Lord Auckland. There was no doubt, from the
he contemplated to affect was the motive power of the chit- terms of a circular then issued, that the state of the dock-
dren. (Laughter.) yards at that time was such as to be extremely unsatis-
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, the answer which the noble factory, and that was partly, if not mainly attributable to
lord had given was quite satisfactory. This was not the the circumstance of political influence controling promo-
proper time for going into the question ;an opportunity tions in the dockyards. [The hon. member here quoted
t
would be afforded on the second reading of the bill ; but that part of the circular of February 1847, in which the
Lords of the Admiralty expressed their apprehension that
there was one principle in the bill of such importance that
th was raegarded rather as ahe could not help calling attention to it. It had always promotion in the dockyardsf
reward due to merit.]
mat-
been said that the object of the law was to protect those ter of accident
cire or 79_
In the circular of 1a84771 rules anaB
were laid
. down, first, with who could not protect themselves—children, women, and
re-
young persons ; but it was always disclaimed that it was gard to the entrance of apprentices into the dockyards, and
next with regard to the promotion of parties already there.
ever intended to interfere with the right of a man to labour
This circular, as succinaly described in the report of the
to such an extent as he might think fit for his own interest.
But, if he understood the hon. gentleman, he proposed to select committee which recently sat, expressed the deter-
put a atop to adult labour. It was the very greatest sub- mination of the Lords of the Admiralty.
ject which that house, representing the greatest manufac- "To introduce and maintain a system of promotionunder
turing country in the world, could entertain. He did not, which every man who shall have once entered the service
however, complain of the hon. gentleman for asking to be of the dockyards may learn to look to his own exertions as
allowed to bring in the bill. If legislation as it stood was the only means of future advancement. With the view of
not snfficien then it was the duty of the house to make giving effect to this determination, the circular contains a
it effectua ' that was quite a distinct question from scheme, according to which, whenever a vacancy offeringan
what w before the house, and he must regret that opportunity for promotion shall occur, the principal officers
the noble lord the Secretary of State for the Home Depart- of the dockyard are directed to select three names of the
mesa, when he gave his consent to the introduction of the persons who, after examination, shall appear best qualified
bill, dWriet state his intention to resist a principle that to fill the vacancy, and they are required to submit these
wo itold out any false hopes to the population. He names, with a full report of the respective merits of the can-
es) . , • , that holding out such hopes would be fraught dilates, to the superintendent of the dockyard. The duty is
wit* , - .r. He respected the manufacturing population then imposed on the superintendent of investigating closely
as intul as any man could do; but he greatly mistook the these returns, and of satisfying himself as to their perfect
intelligence of that class if they were not aware that no impartiality, which he is authorised to reduce the
legislation ought to interfere with the right they possessed number of candidates to two, by striking out the name of
to dispose of their labour for such a price and in such man- that candidate who he considers least qualified. The re-
ner as they might think best. port of the superintendent, containing his opinion of the
Mr. BOOKER said he was largely engaged in connection merits of the candidates, with the original documents an-
with manufacturing industry, and should give his mostnn- nexed, is then to be forwarded to the Admiralty, and the
qualified assent to any measure such as was now submitted Lords of the Admiralty announce their intention to be
to their consideration.

guided by those reports-in the selection of one from-the

Lord J. RUSSELL was induced to address the house in
consequence of his right hon. friend the member for Mor-
peth (Sir G. Grey) and his right hon. friend the member for
Taunton (Mr. Labouchere) appearing to imagine that his
noble friend (Lord Palmerston) had held out false hopes of
legislation with respect to the restriction of the motive
power in the mills. His noble friend, in assenting to the
introduction of the bill, carefully reserved to himself the
right to retain his opinion on the subject till the second
reading. The only observation he mode in which he at all
alluded to the motive power was, that he was opposed to
any restriction on adult labour. That was a principle in
favour of which he (Lord J. Russell) had always voted.
He did not think it would be right, or that there was any
necessity, to restrict adult labour. It would be a sacrifice
of principle to make any proposition of the kind. What-
ever statement the hon. gentleman (Mr. Cobbett) might
make as to the many evasions of the present law, that was
perfectly consistent with the object of his bill, and he
(Lord J. Russell) thought it was but fair that the house
should give the hon. gentleman leave to bring in his bill,
and when it came to a second reading then coud then con-
fidently and fairly discuss the question. -The object of the
bill of his right hon. friend (Sir G. Grey), in 1850, was not
merely to correct a verbal error in the act of 1847, but it
was to put an end to a system of relays which had been in-
troduced, and which had worked most injuriously to those
for whose benefit the act of 1847 was passed.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said, if the laws of the country
were systematically violated, not by a majority, but by a
minority of the people, then, in justice to those who had
sought legislative protection, and in justice to the fair
trader, who had consented to abide by the laws, he was
prepared, if there were no other effectual means, to assent
to a restriction of the motive power in factories, at all
events, in those which should be proved to have violated
and infringed the law.
Mr. E. BALL supported the motion, and read some cases
from the reports of the Factory Inspectors to prove the
evasions of the present law at Manchester.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill.
DOCKYARD COMMITTEE'S REPORT.
On Mr. KEATING being called on to proceed with his
motion on the subject,
Mr. DISRAELI said, he hoped the hon. gentleman
would allow him to make a suggestion. The hon. gentle-
man had given notice of a motion of a very important and
peculiar kind. It was, in fact, a motion for a vote of cen-
sure on the late Administrationand especially on the Board
of Admiralty, who were alle c, have acted in a manner
" calculated to reflect
to
discreditec
the Government, upon that department of
and
vice." He could hardly ismapair the efficiency of the ser-
would wish, at that late hour
PoPof
tgehethevaetnt.heng h(monqugaernttelrempaasnt
al), to bring on this
e question,
pane statement t
when itl would be hardlypossible to answer any which he might
Woke. The late Government were
an.xious to meet any charge that e,onle
perfectly ready and
an act of their Administration ; and,
witl'irought against
pe
Adn_liralty, that department which was :res ct to the
shoulsi be perfectly content to appeal to thrP4...Ugneodf,
the
fleet at Spithead as the best answer that could be
given.
tl
(Cries of " Order !") He presumed he was perfec
order in what he had said. y
in
Mr. IL KEATING would be happy to hear any
potion or proposal which the right hon. gentleman mighi
desire to make to him, but it was scarcely in order to an-
ticipate to the subject-matter of the motion, and to do that
ich he apprehended he (Mr. Keating) was about to do
w
—n take a sort of ex parte statement. (Hear, hear.) If
the
ight hon. gentleman would confine himself strictly to
asldi le any (petition, or to making any proposition, he should

two names submitted to fill the vacancy." -
The effect of that circular was, that the Board of Admiralty,
gave up absolutely all patronage with respect to promo-
tions in the dockyards—(hear, hear)—though it reserved
undoubtedly to itself the patronage of original appoint-
ments, or first entrances. With regard to promotions in
the dockyards, the Lords of the Admiralty, by that circu-
lar, parted completely with the patronage beyond the
single act of selecting one of the two names sent up by the
superintendent of the dockyard, and in making that selec-
tion they would unquestionably consult the persons they
made the judges of merit—namely, the superintendent and
the principal officers of the dockyard; for it would not be
consistent with the spirit of the circular to make a capri-
cious selection, or one based on political preference, with-
out regard to merit. (Hear, hear.) Now, in the early
part of 1849, upon the death of Lord Auckland, the right
hon. gentleman the member for Portsmouth (Sir F.Baring)
succeeded him as First Lord of the Admiralty, and it
would be an act of injustice, after reading the evidence
given before the committee which recently sat, not to pay
to that right hon. gentleman that tribute of admiration
which was due for his administration of the navy depart-
ment. (Cheers.) During the whole course of his adminis-
tration the right hon. baronet seemed to have had only
ono object in view, and that was the good of the public
service. (Renewed cheers.) When the right hon. baronet
was called on to administer the affairs of the Board of
Admiralty, in consequence of a reconstruction which had
recently before taken place in the department of the Sur-
veyor of the Navy, a corresponding change in reference to
the routine business of the dockyards became almost abso-
lutely necessary, and the main matter now for considera-
tion was, what appeared to have been a most unjustifiable
interference with the department of that surveyor. [Here
there were several cries of " Order !" occasioned by some
disorder in the house, and Admiral BERKELEY rose, and
complained that the hon. member for Donegal, Mr.
Conolly, was carrying on a conversation in a tone so
loud as to prevent proper attention being paid to the mem-
ber addressing the house.] It was right that the house
should be reminded of the functions of the Surveyor of
the Navy, and he found that the report of a very in-
fluential committee, which sat in 1848, referred to them,
and stated that the proper application of the sums voted
by Parliament for the navy department depended greatly
on the superintendence of the Surveyor of the Na, and
that to him was committed the whole control of the dock-
yards, he being required to decide upon the amount of
work and number of artificers required. Such being the
duty of the Surveyor of the Navy, his responsibility w
of course, great in proportion. When the right hon. gear's,
-
baronet the member for Portsmouth assumed the head of
the Admiralty Board, a change was suggested by Sir B.
Walker, which convenience had rendered absolutely neces-
sary, and which was subsequently adopted by the First
Lord of the Admiralty. The change was this,—that the
•
reports of the superintendents should be sent direct to the
Surveyor, instead of being first sent to the Admiralty, and
that the out this object the cir-
cular" submission" on them. To carry
Surveyor should then make what was. called his
Undoubtedly, that
was not technically a board minute,but.
after
of September, 1849,
of the Admiralty, discus-
approved by the First Lord
s counter-signed
was
it was a minute,
sion with the members of the board,—was
)
by the secretary, issued to the dockyards, and acted upon.
from September, 1849, until April, 1852. (Hear) _
It appeared from the evidence given before the committee
of 1848, that the circular of 1847 (which was subsequently
carried out more effectually and stringently by the titular
of 1849), had answered, as far as any regulation of the sort
Possibly could, the object intended. The men in the Royal