The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-09 00:00:00

THE SUN, LOjNDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 9, 1853.

any one, and the right hon. gentleman had assigned no other two. The second proposal woull give him for his
reason for the exclusion pointed out, except that he had 1001., 1101. 21 per cent stock, redeemable at 1101. at the
some scheme in the clouds for dealing with all sums end of 40 years, with 21. 15s. per annum meantime. At
in the Court of Chancery. Was the house to take that as the end of 40 years he would be possessed of a capital
an indication that the Chancellor of the Exchequer.in- of 1101. (The Chancellor of the Exchequer intimated
tended to lay hands upon it? (Hear, hear.) At all dissent.) He was to have "the sum of 1101. in a new
events it was an unusual course, and hardly just to make stock of 2i per cent. annuities." He would be possessed
an exception ; and that was another reason why the house lof 1101. capital. (A Member.-" Stock.") A debt
should not be asked to come to a conclusion to-night. of 1101. would be due to him from the Govesn•
With regard to the general scheme, what effect it would ment as much as the 1001. was now due. (A member
have on the other securities of the country-whether the -" No.") Really if he had any organs of understanding,
Exchequer bonds would circulate .at a greater premium he (Sir F. Kelly) took it so ; the Government could not
than Exchequer bills-were questions very difficult to deter- relieve itself from the debt without paying 1101. (Hear,
mine until the test of experience had been applied. He hear.) And was there anything visionary- was it taking
thought the issue of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock an exaggerated view of the possibilities of the future to
was a very important change, and that the several other suppose, looking to the influx of gold-that at the end of
changes proposed were of such moment that it was not the 40 years it might be to the interest of the Government
fair of the Government to ask the house to cone to a reso- to pay off even a 24 per cent. stock by payment of 1101. ?
lution before they had been well considered, especially as (Hear, hear.) What was the next of these proposals? To
he did not anticipate any public inconvenience would re- give an Exchequer bond for 1001., with V. 15s. interest
suit from a few hours' delay. (Hear, hear.) per annum interest for 10 years, or some less period that
Mr. E. ELLICE took an entirely different view from the Government might determine, and 21. 10s. for the rest
the right 'honourable gentleman who had just sat down, of the 40 years ; and at the end of the 40 years this person
with regard to the advantage or disadvantage of delay in would have his stock, in the shape of a Treasury bond of
passing this resolution. It must not be forgotten that 1001. In the one case he would have 21. 15s. for 40 years,
this proposition exceeded by far in amount every attempt and then be the holder of 1101. stock ; and in the other
made by any previous finance minister of this country to case he would have 21. 15s. for 10 years, and 2/. 10s. for
deal with the national debt, and as it laid the foundation the next 30, and then be tho holder of only 105/. stock,
of a greater scheme hereafter, it ought to be viewed with liable to be paid off at that amount : would the hon. gen-
the greatest indulgence by the house, and the greatest pos. tleman pretend that it was anything but a delusion to say
sible facilities ought to be voluntarily given to carry out here was an option ? What man in his senses would pause
the object of his right honourable friend the Chancellor of between the two? "(Hear.) 'What was the remaining pro-
the Exchequer. (Hear, hear.) He confessed that as the posal ? To give for the 101/. 81/. 10s., 31 per cent. stock
resolutions originally stood he could not have supported guaranteed against reduction for 40 years, and yielding
that part which added to the capital of the debt, but that therefore 21. 17s. 9d. for 40 years, but liable then to be
had now been modified. The right honourable gentleman paid off at 821. 10s., Icing 271. less than if he took 1101.
opposite complained that his right hon. friend (the Chan- per cents., producing 2/. 15s. What was the compensation
cellor of the Exchequer) only dealt with part of the debt. for his being entitled to-271. 10s. less under this pioposal
He did not know how any Chancellor of the Exchequer than under the other at the end of 40 years ? Just 2s. 9d.
could deal with the whole. (Hear, hear.) He should more interest per annum during thu 40 years. Was 2s. 9d.
never have thought it could have entered into the contem- a-year for 40 years' purchase-money for 271.105. at the end
plation of any member of that house, that the Chancellor of that time ? (Hear.) Would it represent even in per-
of the Exchequer would have come down and proposed the petuity more than 5/. or 6/. ? (Hear.) Were these two
commutation of 500,000,0001. of debt, either by reducing proposals as like as two peas? a
(Hear.) This was
sub-
the interest to 21 per cent., or offering to pay off ject of which those of his profession rarely presumed to
the holders of the stock. (Hear.) The only possible address the house ; but it bad appeared to him (Sir F.
as
principle on which the operation of reducing the debt Kelly) not so much a matter of financial policy
a
simple
could be conducted was that proposed by the Chancellor of question of arithmetic-(hear)-and ho believed he had
the Exchequer. He had always thought it desirable for not used too strong a term when he said it was a delusion
this country to create a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, to hold this out as an option presenting three equiva-
as had been done in Holland, which should find favour lents, or something approaching to three equivalents.
with the public, and afford the means of ultimately re- Was it not absolutely certain that any one would
ducine the interest on the whale debt to that sum. The accept the second proposal and reject the others?
right °honourable gentleman said it was proposed to give hear.) With the change which had now been(Hear,e
great discretion to the Government. He should like to in the resolutions, was it fair topress the o made
to
know how the scheme could be carried into effect without pronounce on them that night? If anything house
it. So far from throwing obstacles in the way, he should render the question more important, hemight- almost
have expected the right hon. gentleman would have done say more alarming in its aspect,- it, was that the Go-
everything in his power to facilitate an object which must vernment were seeking the sanction of the house to
be of such benefit and advantage to the country. (Hear.) that which was admitted to be an entirely new opera-
The right hon. gentleman made objection to the holding tion-(hear)-unexampled in its extent-(hear)-and if
out advantages to the stockholders. He did not say there ever there was a time when the house should proceed to
had ever been a case analogous to the present, but when- the consideration of such measures with caution and the
ever Exchequer bills had been funded the advantage was utmost deliberation, it was when we were not in a settled
given to the parties subscribing, and the same inducement and permanent financial condition, but when the finances
must be given, unless they were prepared to deal with the of this and every country were in a state of transition,
whole debt. With respect to the funds of the Court of owing to the unprecedented influx of gold-(hear)-a time
Chancery, for the last thirty years, ever since the peace, he that should be the very last when a Government should
had been astonished that in this country more attention seek to tie up the hands of the State for a period of no less
was not paid to the interests of property, and that no pro- than 40 years. (Hear.)
position had been made to place those funds on a more Mr.WILSON observed that the hon. and learned gentle-
reasonable footing. Nothing made a case so clear as an il- man could not conceive that a man with-1001. to invest
lustration. He recollected the executors of the late Duke would accept the alternative of an Exchequer bond. He
of Queensberry were called upon to invest upwards of a might see that a fallacy must lurk in his statement, because
million of money in the funds, in consequence of suits be- it was found as a fact that with Consols at par there were
ing instituted in the Court of Chancery against them. abundance of people ready to invest in Exchequer-bills, not
When the stock was purchased it was at 52-53, and when at 21. 155., but at 11.10 s. per cent. The hon. and learned
it was sold, at 96-97 ; so the result was the residuary gentleman overlooked the character of the security. Stock,
legatee made a profit of three, or four, or five hundred redeemable only at the option of the Government, was
thousand pounds. That was a very good bargain ; but • hedged round by a great number of inconveniences and
suppose to-morrow he was required to invest for an infant costs in its transmission, while an Exchequer bill passed
a large sum in stock at 100, who could tell that the con- from hand to hand. The hon. and learned gentleman over-
verse of the transaction would not take place, and he looked, therefore, in regard to one of the securities compared,
might have to sell at 52 or 53 that which he invested at an advantage which would give these Exchequer bonds an
100. Such a thing might occur. We had now been forty enormous value in the eyes of bankers and insurance-
years at peace, and he hoped we should be at peace forty offices, and those who had temporary investments to make.
years longer-at least as long as he lived-but suddenly Of so great value was that convenience, when stated in
we might find ourselves involved in war, and that contin- pounds, shillings, and pence, that the Government had
gency justified his right hon. friend in hazarding a great been able at the very moment the Bank of England was
deal, and in making this great experiment to obtain the raising its rate of interest, and Consols were below par, to
public advantage. To revert again to the Court of Chan- convert 9,000,0001. sterling of Exchequer-bills, bearing lute-
eery : the court would not allow infants' property to be rest at 24 per cent., into Exchequer-bills bearing interest
dealt with in any other way than to be invested an the at 14 per cent. Referring to the hon. and learned gentle-
funds, and was it fit that the property of infants and other man's remark on an increase of the capital of the public
persons which was obliged to be invested in the funds debt, he begged to say that he entirely concurred in the
should be constantly exposed to these risks, and that no observation that nothing presented the management of the
attempt should be made to devise some scheme to give public debt and of public affairs in so lamentable an as-
security to capital ? He tendered his thanks to his right pect as the improvident mode in which the debt was con-
hon. friend for having been the first to grapple with this tracted in the last century. In point of principle he en-
subject. (Hear, hear.) He entreated the house to give tirely concurred in thinking it undesirable, without some
every possible facility. It was, of course, a great expert- decided advantage, to add to the nominal amount of the
ment. The right hon. gentleman did not profess to intro- debt. Posterity, however, would not be disadvantaged by
duce it in any other light than to enable him to take ad- the arrangement which was proposed. It was proposed to
vantage of a favourable moment to attempt a reduction of limit the 3 per cents. to be dealt with to 30,000,0001. In-
_

the interest of the national debt. He hived it would be
successful, and he could not understand the grounds on
which, if they gave the Government their confidence, and
wished to enable them to go on with their measure, they
should withhold their assent to the resolution. What good
could result from postponing it for a day ? It would only
keep the public mind. in a state of excitement. (Hear,
hear.) They must deal with a case of this kind by repos-
ing confidence in the Government, and giving them every
facility, or they had better at once reject it. The public
ought not, -upon a subject of this importance, to be kept in
doubt and uncertainty. He, therefore, entreated the
house to go on with an experiment to which everybody in
that house wished success, and which was of such great in-
terest to the public.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON was quite ready to ac-
quiesce in the recommendation which had just been made
to them to give the question before them a fair, candid,
and impartial consideration. He admitted the immense
magnitude of the question as regarded the public interest.
Most certainly during the period he had the honour of
sitting in that house—now upwards of 33 years—he had
never yet hoard from a Minister of the Crown so bold a
measure in reference to the national debt. (Hear, hear.)
But, while he admitted the magnitude of the question,
and while he was anxious to give it a fair and candid con-
sideration, he must still ask whether it was not right that
members should have at least 24 hours to consider it ; for
it should be recollected that the first edition of the resolu-

tions was only delivered yesterday morning, and the second
edition had only reached his hands since the house had
met ? If the scheme was a wise one, why not give
members time to consider it ? (Hear, hear.) The scheme
contained matter of great and serious importance. He
had long thought that the South Sea debt should have
been dealt with before now. It occasioned a charge to the '
country for which there was no sufficient justification.
He admitted also that it was desirable to create a 2i per
cent. stock, but the question was, whether the operation
could not be effected at a more favourable period than the
present—at a period when the scheme would be sure to be
carried into effect and a saving effected to the publiC at
large, instead of putting it forward as a mere experiment,
as the right hon. gentleman himself admitted it to be.
For himself, he (Mr. Alderman Thompson) did not think
that the present was the best time for the operation. It
appeared to him also, from the little consideration he had
been able to give the subject, that the right hon. gentle-
man's resolutions contained, principles which acted in op-
position to each other. The right hon. gentleman took
credit to himself for having created a great saving of in-
terest on Exchequer bills. But he (Mr. Alderman Thomp-
son) would ask any gentleman connected with the mone-
tary interests] of the counry whether it was possible for
the right honourable gentleman to keep 18,000,0001. of Ex-
chequer bills at 14, per cent. in floating circulation with
Exchequer bonds at 2:j per cent. ? (Hear, hear.) The
one was utterly inconsistent with the other. He did not
deny that, to a certain extent, the Exchequer bills would
be taken, because they were the most convenient security
which individuals could hold for temporary and particular
objects • but if the right hon. gentleman expected that
he would keep 18,000,0001. of them in circulation at 1A
per cent. with his Exchequer bonds at 21 per cent. he
would find himself mistaken. Besides, if he paid 1 per
cent. more upon Exchequer bonds than upon Exchequer
bills, would not that occasion a loss to the country? (Hear.)
In connection with the proposed bonds there was one thing
which he viewed with considerable alarm, and that was

with respect to the conditions on which they were issued.
He should be quite indisposed to grant to any Government
whatever the power of issuing bonds on such a condition
as that of redeeming them when they thought fit. His
own opinion was that they should be redeemable at some
fixed and positive period, as he believed all foreign bonds
were. It might indeed be very inconvenient to have bonds
to the extent of 20,000,0004. or 30,000,0001. falling due all
at once, at a particular period. Still that difficulty had
been met by other countries, and why not in ours? (Hear,
hear.) On the whole, he was quite willing to show indul-
gence on this important question, but he did think the
country would expect that the resolutions should be de-
layed at least till next week, to allow time to consider
their effect.

stead of 3 Per cent. that 7would be taken at 2 per cent.
There was a saving of per cent. on that transaction at
once, of 75,0001. per annum. Supposing they did not
consume the saving, but made it go as a payment to au
additional amount of capital, the effect would be that
the 75,0001. per annum saved for forty years would
amount to 3,000,000/. ; so that, in a saving of
per cent. without interest, the total amount would be
exactly equivalent to the rate at which the national debt
would be increased. [Mr. Hume.—" YQU eat your cake."]
He had got a sum to fund for the benefit of posterity 40
years hence, being exactly equivalent to the amount
which he added to the nominal amount of the debt. But
he had got more. He had got compound interest on this
annual sum of 75,000,0001. for 40 years. He should not
enter further on the subject, as ho should have it in his
power to discuss it on future opportunities.
Mr. SPOONER thought the argument of the hon. mem-
ber for Westbury was unintelligible, except in so far as it
showed that the result of the proposed operation would be to
leave the country exactly in the same position in which it was
at present. With respect to the alterations in two of the reso-
lutions, those alterations had not been:so explained by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer as to be understood. The
plan in the original resolutions, it is now said, was not the
plan; but it was incumbent on the right hon. gentleman
to have well considered the resolutions in the first instance.
Agreeing that delay was dangerous, he (Mr. Spooner)
thought that the attempt should not be made to proceed

with a speed incompatible with the requirements of jus-
tice; and justice could not be done if full consideration
were not given to the subject. He was by no means pre-
pared to reject the whole plan. Much of it he was in-
clined to approve ; but if he were asked that night to say
"Ay" or "No," he should say "No," because he would
not commit himself at the moment to a proposition which
was open to the objections that had been stated.
Mr. JOHN M'GREGOR supported the proposition
made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The benefit of
dealing as proposed with Treasury bonds to the amount of
30,000,0001. would extend to every country of Europe.
Every banking establishing would avail itself of them, and
they would be found most convenient for investment.
The real question was, whether you could reduce the annual
amount to be paid as interest for the public debt. He
was convinced that out of doors the resolutions would give
the utmost satisfaction, and that the sooner the committee
assented to them the better.
Mr. WILKINSON was understood to express his con-
currence in some of the objections stated by the hon. and
learned member for East Suffolk. Considering the dif-
ference of opinion which existed with respect to portions
of the comprehensive scheme proposed by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, be thought that some delay should take
place to give an opportunity for examining the proposition
to more advantage.
Mr. LAING hoped the right hon. gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would not accede to the invitations
which had been thrown out. The question had been fully
discussed out of doors, and the explanations given to-night
of the amended resolution removed the only serious ob-
jection that had been felt to a proposal which, upon
the whole, had been well received. Objections were at
first felt to a scheme which appeared likely to increase
the national debt by 50,000,000/. but that argament
appeared to him to have been greatly overstated. Men of
business now fully understood the proposal, and he trusted
It would be agreed to by the house. (Hear.)
The question was then put, that the first resolution b•

agreed fo.
Mr. DISRAELI hoped the committee would hear from.
the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it was not his inten-
tion to proceed any further to night.
Lord J. RUSSELL (lid not think it would be at all con-
venient that the committee should not go on to affirm the
resolutions to-night. It seemed of great importance, now
that the resolutions had been so much discussed, that the
committee should so far decide upon the resolutions as to
permit the bill to be brought in, and that was the proposi-
tion now before the house. The question was, whether
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, having fully and clearly
stated his plans, should be permitted to bring in his bill.
(Hear.) It would be very disadvantageous to postpone the
decision of that question until another evenin, A - )st-

Mr. J. B. SMITH confessed that he had felt great alarm
on reading the first edition of the resolutions of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer. The second edition he had not
yet seen ' • but he understood, from what had fallen from
the right hon. gentleman, that his original proposition had
been so far modified as that he now proposed to add only
30,000,0001. instead of 50,000,0001., to the nominal capital
of the national debt, though he still adhered to the bonus
of 10 per cent. for the purpose of establishing a 2,1, per cent.
stock, giving thereby a bonus of 3,000,0001. for that pur-
pose. He thought that hon. members should inquire,
before assenting to a resolution of this kind, whether the
right hon. gentleman intended to follow it up by the crea-
tion of a larger amount of stock than 30,000,000/. ; be-
cause, if not, where was the use of passing the resolutions?
(Hear, hear.) It appeared to him that it would be better
to wait, and take their chance of a more favourable oppor-
tunity of reducing the interest of the national debt. He
(Mr. Smith) was disposed to think with the hon. alderman
that there was great doubt whether Exchequer bonds at
26 per cent. interest and Exchequer bills at 1 would cir-
culate together. (Hear.) He agreed that it was desirable
to take a little more time to consider the important subject
before the house, and not decide upon it that night. (Hear,
hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer might do well to
consider whether the time might not have arrived when
some effort should be made to reduce our debt ; whether
any scheme was practicable for paying off a portion of it.
He might perhaps some day be induced to ask for a com-
mittee toinquire into the practicability of that. If that
object could be effected it would afford great facilities for
reducing the interest.
Sir F. KELLY wished also to submit to the Chancellor
of the Exchequer whether the house could with any pro-
priety be asked to proceed to a decision upon this vast and
important question that night. (Hear, hear.) The effect
of the resolutions was to deal immediately with about
10,000,0001. of the national debt, and possibly with nearly
500,000,0001. Gentlemen, on coming down to the house,
found that no less important a change had been made in
the resolutions than a limitation of that portion of the debt
with which it was proposed to deal to 30,000,000/. ; and
this change must be considered with respect to its effect
upon the option proposed to be given to the fundholder.
What was the option given to him ? Unless he (Sir F.
Kelly) entirely misapprehended the resolutions, the appa-
rent option was absolutely nugatory, and neither more nor
less than a pure and mere delusion. Contrasting the pro-
posal to convert 1001. into 1101. 21 per cent. with the
other two modes of conversion proposed, no man in his
senses could hesitate for a moment which he could accept ;
and the idea of putting this forward to the country as if it
were really a question of equivalents, the one as like to the
other (as the right hon. gentleman said) as two peas—the
ebeldoubt
three wt
of
tnhe
er
idea of putting forward these proposals as in any way equal
as approaching to each other in advantage and disadvan-
tage, was a pure delusion. (Hear, hear.) As had been said
there was nothing like a plain illustration :—then suppose
proposals
benefito)la
converting to 1:so Saitot
f
liitewt h
country
considerable S
te hSitsmo inkgportionthee troenbs
setdotefor termedant
hcg whichceepi nationaleal et. Nlol
debt into
3A per cent. stock on the terms here stated ; but
it was a mockery to pretend that any one would dream of ateePtin,that proposal if he coull. obtain either of the

-Eg. Pas,
ponement might have taken place, if hon. gentlemen who
had doubts and objections to the plan had said that they
did not wish to discuss it, and had asked for delay. But
the contrary of that course had been pursued. Every
gentleman who felt objections to the plan had stated them
in. the strongest manner. They had gone through every-
thing that could be said against it—(" No, no," from the
Opposition benches")—and some of the objections had been
stated with a great deal of bitterness, which was not usually
displayed on such questions. If hon. gentleman had pro-
posed in the first instance to postpone the discussion, he
should have had no objection, but he now saw very great
objections to delay.
Mr. DISRAELI said, the bitterness to which the noble
lord had adverted must have been displayed when ho went
to dinner, for he had heard none of it. (A laugh.) The
question then arose on which side of the house it had been
manifested, for hon. members had opposed the scheme on
both sides of the house, and he must assume that the bit-
terness had not been displayed by any of his friends. He
did not wish to enter into a lengthened discussion to-
night, and he admitted there was an understanding with
the Chancellor of the Exchequer that no discussion should
take place to-night. But, as it was only yesterday that the
original resolutions were circulated, and as he had not seen
the important alteration made by the right hon. gentleman
until the moment he entered the house, he did not think it
manifested great bitterness to appeal for further time for
discussing the resolutions. (Hear, hear.) If all the com-
mittee were now asked to agree to was that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer should be allowed to bring in a bill, that
removed many of his objections. But if it were to go forth
to the country that the House of Commons had solemnly
assented to the proposal of the right hon. gentleman, then
it would be his duty to call for a division, to show the
comparatively small number of members present at that
moment. He would, however, take the word of the noble
lord, that the committee were only asked to express an opi-
nion now that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be
permitted to bring in his bill, and that proposal he should
not oppose. The right hon. member for Coventry (Mr.
Ellice) said that it was the business of the House of Com-
mons always to facilitate the progress of Government busi-
ness. That was a doctrine no doubt very agreeable to the
Treasury benches, and the house would be disposed to
comply with that rule ; but in being amiable and avoid-
ing displays of bitterness, they must not lose the opportu-
nity of discussing subjects of great importance, upon
which, as it seemed, no mistake or difference of opinion
could possibly arise among men of business. The hon. gen-
tleman who had spoken last seemed to treat this as a ques-
tion upon which men of business could not have two opi-
nions. But, speaking their views, he had objected to the
increase of the debt which would have followed from adopt-
ing the second proposition of the original resolution, while
the Secretary of tho Treasury (Mr. Wilson) said that no in-
crease of the permanent debt of the country could have
taken place under that proposal, but rather a diminution—
(a laugh)—and that, if it had remained as it had been ori-
ginally framed, instead of causing an increase of 50,000,0001.
t the debt, as apprehended by men of business, there
would have been a proportionate diminution.
. Mr. LAING said he had stated that-the original resole-