The Sun.
London, England, 1853-07-13 00:00:00

turned to this subject. (Hear, hear.) Since 1844 it had
been the anxious care of the board to effect improvements
on every point on which the system was capable of im-
provement, and a very few figures would show the house
to what extent this had been carried. In 1838 the cost of
medical relief to the poor was 136,000/. ; in 1844,166,2571. ;
and, last year, 212,0501. There had therefore been a very
great increase in the expenditure for medical relief. He
did not say this was too large ; in his opinion the expen-
diture might go further ; but he was showing that a great
increase had taken place. (Hear, hear.) This last sum of
212,0501. was exclusive of 25,8941. which was paid for
vaccination ; and, as one result of the committee of 1844,
there were extra fees for surgeons, amounting in 1840 to
5,4991., and in 1852 to 30,7271. Then the number of medical
officers had been increased. In 1838 the number was 2,091;
in 1852 they amounted to 3,233. The districts had. also
been materially abridged. With regard to the qualifica-
tions of the medical men, some fault had been found with
their qualifications as too high ; but he thought the medical
man appointed to attend the poor should have the highest
qualifications—such as would be required in the case of any
one else. (Hear.) In all cases a double qualification was
required—that was to say, both a medical and surgical
qualification; and he was happy to say that the system had
worked exceedingly well. (Hear.) One important matter,
as regarded the efficiency of medical relief, was the re-
sponsibility of medical officers. Before the Poor Law Act
passed, in 1834, there was no such thing as responsibility,
except to the overseer with whom the medical man made
his contract ; but there was now a very efficient system of
responsibility. Every medical man was responsible to the
Poor Law Board for the proper discharge of his duty, and
he would venture to say that no case of neglect or mal-
treatment had ever been brought before the board without
an instant inquiry being made. (Hear.) The complaints
against the medical officers were, on the whole, few, con-
sidering their great number, and also the number of the
poor attended to ; and whenever there was a well-founded
cause of complaint, it was pretty sure, either by the vigi-
lance of rivals, or in consequence of that vigilance which
was exercised by benevolent persons with regard to the
suffering poor in their neighbourhood, to be brought to
light, and to find its way to the Poor Law Board, where it
would It immediately scrutinised, and the result would be
that the medical man would be dismissed. At the same
time, the board was anxious to protect the medical officer
in the fair, proper, and independent exercise of his duty,
whenever a cabal, as sometimes happened, was formed
against him. Upon one point, as the hon. gentleman
knew, very efficient support had been given by the Poor
Law Board within the last few years to the medical officers.
It was very true, as the hon. gentleman had said, that
their salaries were not high ; on the contrary, he (Mr.
Baines) thought they were low ; but, from a very great
number of agticultural unions, within the last three years,
requests had been made desiring that the salaries of the
medical officers might be cut down, had in every one in-
stance those requests had been refused. He must, how-
ever, do the boards of guardians the justice to say that in
a.great many cases they had afterwards taken a more liberal
view, and had admitted the justice of the decision of the
Poor Law Board. The hon. gentleman had made some
suggestions with respect to the appointment of medical
inspectors, and had justly observed that that was a subject
which had occupied the attention of one of his (Mr.
Baines's) predecessors, Mri 'C. Buller. That gentleman,
however, the longer he thought on the subject found that
the greater would be the difficulties in the way of estab-
lishing a staff of medical inspectors. At present the Poor
Law Board had the means of availing themselves of the
best assistance whenever any question arose with respect
to which professional knowledge in medicine or surgery
was necessary. Within the last week a question was
brought before the Poor Law Board as to the sufficiency
of two workhouses for the proper reception of the poor in
a sanitary point of view ; and the board, thinking it their
duty to obtain the best opinion on the subject, applied to
the President of the College of Physicians to name one or
two gentlemen of the highest character, whose opinions on
the point would be sure to carry weight. They were im-
mediately named and sent down to inspect the buildings.
They made a most satisfactory report, and on that report
the Poor Law Board proposed to act. Again, it some-
times happened that a charge was made against a medical
officer for neglect or malpractice in the case of a sick per-
son. An inquiry took place, and one of the Poor Law
Inspectors—a class of gentlemen highly educated, and ac-
customed to weigh evidence—went down to carry on that
inquiry, and called before him the best medical evidence
he could obtain. The Poor Law Inspectors also had
now associated with them a medical man accustomed
to hear evidence, and whose duty it was to give ad-
vice upon sanitary points. This system was found
perfectly satisfactory, and the house would see that
under it the Poor Law Board had the means of availing
themselves of the best medical and surgical advice, and at. a
less cost than keeping up a large medical staff would entail.
With regard to the suggestion made by the hon. gentleman
on the subject of drugs, he observed that opinions varied
much, and in reference to another point, he remarked that
the principle of the law of England was, that before a per
son could receive medical relief from the funds of a union

We must become chargeable to the parish. The hon. gen-
tleman thought that not a sound system, and wished to in-
troduce a new one, according to which medical relief shuld
be provided at the expense of the state for other persons
besides paupers, receiving less than a certain amount of
income. Whenever that subject should be fairly gone
into, it would be for the Legislature to say how far the in-
troduction of such a principle would have a tendency to
impair habits of frugality on the part of the poorer classes
and to diminish that feeling of independence which had
such a salutary influence on their conduct. In conclusion
he expressed his readiness earnestly to consider any sug-
gestion for the improvement of the medical relief system
for the poor, and he trusted that the hon. gentleman,
having called attention to the subject, would not think it
necessary to press his motion to a division. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. TROLLOPE could confirm the statement of the
right hon. gentleman that a great improvement had taken
place not only in the system of medical relief for the
poor, but also in the class that dispensed that relief.
He could also confirm the statement that whenever a
case of neglect or maltreatment on the part of any medi-
cal officer was brought before the Poor Law Board, it re-
ceived the most earnest attention, and, if proved to be well-
founded, was followed by the dismissal or enforced resigna-
tion of the culpable party. During the past year, for the
greater part of which he held the office of President of the
Poor Law Board, he thought the whole number of cases of

neglect or maltreatment brought before the board did no

exceed four or five, and, when the total number of medical
officers was nearly 4,000, that must certainly be considered
comparatively a very small number. He thought that
there would be some danger in carrying into effect the sug-
gestion of the hon. member for Somersetshire for affording
medical relief at the expense of the State to persons whom
he called the secondary poor, holding a position above that
of the ordinary recipients of Poor Law relief. At present
a great number of that class belonged to benefit societies
or to sick clubs, partly supported by benevolent persons in
the neighbourhood, and partly by a small weekly subscrip-
tion, such as a penny from each member, and he feared
that the establishment of the system suggested by the hon.
member for Somersetshire would operate as a great dis-
couragement to these societies, and prove extremely bur-
densome to the finances of the country. It was true that
vaccination was paid for in respect to persons not paupers,
but that was done on the soore of public health, and to
prevent the spread of a contagious disease. With respect
to the question of medical inspection, that had, on more
than one occasion, been brought before the Poor Law
Board, but it was found that the establishment of that
system would entail great expense, while means already
existed for carrying on any necessary medical inquiry.
As to the pay of medical officers under the Poor
Law Board, he thought that in many cases it was greatly
inadequate; but the rate of salary rested more with
the boards of guardians than the Poor Law Board
--the latter having only the power to affirm or
not the arrangement made by the former. However, he
believed that the salaries of those officers were gradually
en the increase. The complaints against them were ex-
ceedingly few, and, though during the past year some ap-
plications had been made to reduce their salaries on the
plea
of the low price of provisions, that plea had never been
listened to, for obviously it would not be right that the sa-
laries of medical officers should be regulated by a sort of
sliding scale continually rising and falling. He might state
that extra fees settled by the Poor Law Board were paid to
medical officers for certain servioes, and, generally speak-
ing, a more liberal view with regard to their remuneration
was now taken by Poor Law guardians.
Mr. WODEHOUSE said that, although throughout the
country there was the most complete confidence in the ad-
ministration of the Poor Law by the right hon. gentleman
opposite, he still thought the subject of medical relief one
which required revision in many respects.
After a few words from Mr. BARROW,
Mr. MILES consented to withdraw the motion. He
fully admitted that very great improvement had taken
place in the system of medical relief under the Poor Law,
and he was content, after what had been said, to leave the
matter in the very competent and reliable hands of the
right hon. gentleman opposite.—Motion withdrawn.
WOODS AND FORESTS.

Mr. AGLIONEY moved au address fora return of the
number of all the officers holding any permanent situation
or employment under the two Commissioners of Woods,
Forests, and Land Revenues of the Crown in Great Britain
and Ireland, under the names of receivers, deputy-survey-
ors, and superintendents, or such other names as the offi-

cei s might bear (exclusive of the establishment in London),
together with the date of the appointment of each ; the ago
of each when appointed; the previous occupations of each ;
the qualifications each was supposed to possess ; the names
of the persons by whom each was recommended ; the name
of the person by whom each was appointed ; the duties
with which each is intrusted ; the number of acres of land
of every description over which the management of each
deputy surveyor extends, distinguishing in each case the
extent of forest land, land otherwise occupied, and waste
land ; the salary, allowances, and emoluments of each. The
hon. gentleman said it had been shown by Mr. Caird
that there was a loss to the revenue by the mismanage-
ment of these properties to no less an amount than 200,001.
a-year.

-An IION. MEMBER here moved that the house be counted,
and only 31 members being present, the house stood ad-
journed at 20 minutes to 9.