The Sun.
London, England, 1853-06-17 00:00:00

_65. 17 N.

them—evidently, by his own account, fin a secret and con-
fidential way, and which had been now brought forth, as
was the custom of that house and. these times, to be a con-
demnatory matter against himself, and v. matter of reproach
against his noble friend. (He r, hear.) WitlEst; treating
the words in a jesuitical sense, as to whether they
amounted to an offer of office or not, he distinctly stated,
in the presence of the house and, the coiratry, that no one
whatsover authorised him to offer or hint at an offer of
office to the honourable and learned gentleman ; and
had he not been authorised, he could not authorise
his noble friend to make such an offer. But there were
circumstances which proved the impossibility of this,
awnidthtohuetresefa.
searching
rchhiatnteg rafofrronicorrdoiffbeorez-antitong,entolremseenn.din
Lord Naas (Hear.)
ehaerr.o)
and lie had a conversation in St. James's-
square, on the morninc, of the 26th February in last year.
Had he then authorised Lord Naas to offer place or hint at
place to Mr. Keogh, was it within the verge of possibility
that from that day to last Monday Lord NaasshoUklnever
have mentioned to him the conversation he had with Mr.
Keogh, or given him the slightest idea of -what had oc-
curred? (Hear, hear.) The plainest understanding, the
most unsophisticated reasoner, could see how improbable
it was that a person said to be in daily communication
with the Prime Minister, should have sent an offer of place
,to a gentleman, and have never once asked for an answer.
(Hear, hear.) Reason and common sense told them that
was impossible. As to his being in daily communication
with Lord Derby more than any other prominent member
of the Government, that was not his custom. When he
did anything he took the responsibility of it. (Cheers and
laughter.) He did not authorise others to do a thing ; he
did not bring them in. He did not communicate private
conversations which occurred under his roof—and if hon.
gentlemen, who were so ready to sneer, would have the
same respect as ho had for confidential communications—
(laughter)- they should not so frequently have friendly
words spoken in confidence and in au unguarded moment,
retailed again in public. It was perfectly true that on
Wednesday morning, the 26th February, he met by acci-
dent with Lord Naas in St. James's-square. Lord Naas
informed him that he was likely to receive the honour of
an early call from Mr. Keogh. He said it was most likely,
as office had not been offered. to him, and as he and his
friends had assisted in turning out the late Government,
that they would be discontented. He (Mr. Boresford) said
"It cannot be helped, but tell them there is a friendly
feeling towards them—(laughter)—and I will thank you to
be kind enough to convey that to Mr. Keogh" He wished
not to offer him place ; but ho wished to say—" If we
have been foes, don't let that continue." (Laughter.) It
happened that Lord Nass did not communicate this mes-
sage; he certainly never gave him (the Major) any account
of it. Circumstances occurred which made it impossible
for him to see Lord Nass for a few days ; his lordship then
went to Ireland to his election and after that, so long an
interval having elapsed, he did not think it necessary to
ask if he had delivered the message, thinking it probable
he had done so. He now came to the second part of the
charge ; but he protested against any charge being made
against himself or his noble friend, which was founded on
a private or confidential message. Towards the end of
May, Mr. Keogh had made a violent attack in that house
on Mr. Disraeli. Happening to meet Mr. Keogh after-
-wards, ho had told him that he was astonished at
the violence of that attack, said he did not expect
it from him and asked " Did you not receive from
Lord Naas a kindly and confidential communication
from myself?" (Great laughter.) Upon this Mr. Keogh
had flown off, and informed somebody else that he (Major
Beresford) had authorised Lord Naas to offer him office.
As to an offer of office from Lord Derby and his Govern-
ment, it was only in the brilliant imagination of the hon.
and learned gentleman himself. If he meant to say that
the office of Solicitor-General for Ireland was offered to
him, the wish was father to the thought. (No, no, and
great laughter.) He entirely repudiated any such offer
being made ' • and before sitting down, he would again de-
precate that spirit which seemed to animate men to make
public matter of that which was private and confidential
and which must destroy the confidence which gentlemen
used to feel and ought to feel in one another. This pros-
titution of private documents and confidential words de-
tracted from the honour and dignity of that house, deterio-
rated the fame and character of public seen, was inimical
to all feelings of honour and friendship, and tended to re-
duce members of Parliament, like convicts, to the solitary
system. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) No man dared speak
to his neighbur, or write a confidential letter, not know-
ing what use might be made of it. (Hear, hear.) Mr.
Keogh had complained of the question being prejudged by
the statements in the House of Lords. But between the
time of those two statements, a lengthy and untrue state-
ment of the whole occurrence was published in the Morning
Chronicle of last Monday, containing the statement now
made, and the evidences that had been given. He consi-
dered that that was pre judging the question, and a secret
way of doing it. (Hear, hear.)

itEr. NAPIER said it had been remarked as a singular
circumstance that Lord Derby should have stated that he
had heard of the rumour. He would explain how that
happened. Two gentlemen had applied to him to know if
Lord Derby had offered office to Mr. Keogh, and he had
given the statement an unqualified contradiction. At one
gentleman's request he had written to Lord Derby about
it, and his answer was as follows :

" Knowsley, Feb. 3.
" His lordship, in reference to the inquiry, whether at the
time of the formation of the late Government an offer of office
was made to Mr. Keogh, says that neither then nor at any
other time was any such oftbr made by my authority or with
my knowledge.' He then states that he had enclosed my note
to Mr. Disraeli, and had that morning received his answer.
He adds these words : It is as full and satisfactory as it was
possible to be, and I enclose it to you for your satisfaction.
You may therefore, I think, state without fear of contradic-
tion that the assertion is destitute of any foundation, and
that no offer nor overture of any kind was made to Mr.
Keogh by or on the part of the late Government."'
It was in this way that Lord Derby had heard of the
rumour. He (Mr. Napier) never mentioned the subject to
the Earl of Eglinton.
Mr I. BUTT wished the house fully to understand the
position which he occupied in this matter. He had an in-
terview with Lord Naas one night about his election ; and
when he called, Mr. Kecgh was engaged in conversation
with him. He thought nothing there of it till the other
evening, when Mr. Keogh met him in the lobby, and
stated that it was important to him to have his (Mr. Butt's)
evidence that he had been with the noble lord that evening.
He promised Mr. Keogh that he should have it. Mr.
Keogh then said, "Do you recollect that you were kept
waiting ?" lie certainly was kept waiting ; but he was
not an accurate judge of minutes. He took the first op-
portunity of informing Lord Naas of what had passed.
That was the entire amount of what he said.
Mr. DISRAELI—There is no motion before the house ;
but as my name has been frequently introduced into this
discussion, perhaps it will not be deemed intrusive if I offer
a few observations to the house on this subject. I think the
real question before us has reference to the veracity of two
honourable members of this house. Ido not suppose that
any gentleman would really get up and maintain that there
were any circumstances that ought to have influenced the
late Administration not to offer office to the hon. and
learned gentleman (Mr. Keogh) if they wished. (Hear.)
I beg the house to recollect the circumstances under which
the honourable and learned gentleman was placed in re-
gard to the great body of gentlemen who were sitting at
this side of the house at the time when the Government of
the noble lord (Russell) broke up. The hon. and learned
gentleman I think was first returned to Parliament in 1847,
and he was returned as the only Roman Catholic who enter-
tained Conservative principles ; and, of course, that alone
was a combination which gave him a position when he entered
the house—a position which he immediately sustained
by his own great abilities. The hon. and learned gentle-
man took his seat among the Conservative ranks, and he
became a member, like most gentlemen who profess Con-
servative principles, of the Carlton Club. I am willing
to state that he upheld the policy of Sir R Peel, but at
the same time that he sat by us there were many questions
on which he acted with us ; he was in communication with
my late lamented friend, Lord George Bentinck, who had a
high opinion of his abilities, and at the very moment when
the Government of the noble lord opposite (Lord J Russell)
broke up, he was in personal communication with my noble
friend (Lord Naas) as to the management of what might
be called a pity question. The Government, within 24
hours of that debate, ceased, and I can conceive no reason
—on the contrary, I can conceive many reasons-- why office
should have been offered to the hon. and learned gentleman.
Though he entered Parliament as a Conservative, he had
acted with us on many occasions ; he had been occupied on
a motion which had been brought forward with the view
to injure the then Government at the very moment when
it ceased to exist, and he was a gentleman of recognised
abilities and power. I say, then, there was no reason why
office should not have been offered to the hon. and learned
gentleman, and, so far as I am concerned, I should not have
been astonished or displeased if office had been offered and
accepted. Therefore the question is, whether the statement
of my noble friend or that of the hon. and learned gontle-
man on this matter is the true one. The house will recol-
lect that my noble friend has no interest whatever in mak-
ing any statement which is not perfectly true, because it
would be nothing improper, nothing which was not strictly
warrantable, if my noble friend had been authorised to
make the offer of office, and if he had been pressed by Lord
Derby to do so. I was very imperfectly acquainted with
the details of this question before I entered the house to-
night. I have listened attentively to the statement of the
hon. and learned gentleman, and I have brought to it an
impartial consideration, for I have always very much ap-
preciated the abilities of the hon. and learned gentleman
the member for Athlone ; and, so far as I am acquainted
with the details, my sincere though individual impression
is, that the statements of my noble friend and the hon.
and learned gentleman are perfectly reconcileable with the
facts. (Hear, hear.) My noble friend is on terms of ex-
treme intimacy with my right honourable friend the mem-
ber for North Essex. He is in the habit of receiving his
visits and communications. My noble friend is at that mo-
ment in communication with the hon. and learned gentle-
man on a subject of the greatest interest and importance to
My noble friend, namely, the chance of his being able to
preserve his seat for the county of Kildare, and upon that
subject the hon. and learned gentleman was a very good
judge. The very fact of my noble friend having appeal d
to the hon. and learned gentleman on such a subject, and
the hon. and learned gentleman immediately responding to
that appeal, proves the terms on which they were. The
interview that had been referred to took place on a day
when the Administration had been really formed ; I believe
on that day, three days had passed since the appointment
of Attorney and Solicitor-General for Ireland had taken
place ; the new Administration was complete ; and the
only appointment which had not then formally taken place
was that of the office which was eventually accepted by
my noble friend (Lord Naas). And then my noble friend,
not having the slightest authority to make any offer to the
hon. and learned gentleman, because irrespective of any
other circumstance, there was no place which could be
offered to the hon. and learned gentleman—my noble
friend, I say, was extremely anxious—and naturally, look-
ing to the prospects of the new Government—to ascertain
what might be the probable course of the hon. and learned
gentleman, and of those with whom he acted in public life,
in the new Parliament, and in reference to the new Go-
vernment. Well, I ask the house, what was there more
natural than this—relations of intimacy existing between
those two gentlemen at the time - -the new Government
having been formed, and therefore there being no possi-
bility of any immediate understanding on that head—what
was there more natural than that my noble friend, espe-
cially as he had recently had a conversation with my right
hon. friend (Mr. Beresford), should have sounded the hon.
and learned gentleman whether there was a prospect or
not of himself and his friends going into considerable op
sition against the new Government? That I take to be
the fair state of the case as regards my noble friend. Well,
take the position of the hon. and learned gentleman. He
finds himself in confidential communication with one with
whom he was intimate 4 and who was now a Minister of

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of the Crown ;he is eone ee e• upetehje erepsehlte
intere,t ; he is absolutely'
•fee • . 'teyfeicialeatiend ; and
my noble friend is encleavemsze Ces • - eseert..4ihewliat may
be tho future conduct of theTletieeliWOltie arelefeerned gen-
tleman and his friends, speaking to him in this wise -
" Now, what would you have done if office had been
offered you by Lord Derby ?" I say it is not at all re-
asarkabie that the hon. and learned gentleman should have
put an interpretation on that conversation which it was
not intended to bear by my noble friend. I really think
that my noble friend and the right lion linable gentleman,
f oar the same tte.te of facts, have arrived at oppesito .n-
-ferences. As far as I can collect, I think that is a true
and sound view of the case. I wish now for one moment
to refer to an appeal made to the honourable and learned
gentleman which seems to have created some misapprehen-
sion in the mind of nay right honourable friend the mem-
ber for North Essex (Mr. Beresford). It seems the hon.
and learned gentleman bad indulged in a vein of great in-
vective against myself on one occasion. (A laugh.) I
appreciate and admire the talents of the honourable and
learned gentleman ; but so much has happened since that
time that I do not exactly recollect the particular invec-
tive to which reference has been made. lam convinced,
however, that the invective oven of the hon. and learned
gentleman, however continuous and sustained, would never
have infinenced me, directly or indirectly, not to send him
a message of the kind which seems to have been for warded
to him. I always think that invective is a great ornament
of debate—(laughter and cheer)—and I really hardly know
bow we could endure attendance in this house, if our dis-
cussions were not sometimes varied, and rendered more
buoyant, by that arm of eloquence. (Hear, hear.) I
can assure the house that, although I had innocently for-
gotten the invectives of the honourable and learned gen-
tleman, which seems so much to have alarmed my right hon.
friend (Mr. Beresford) at that time, and which have been of
great service in leading to these misapprehensions, I am
confident I always listen to them with approbation, and, on
the whole, with pleasure. (Laughter.) I trust the house
will take the right view of this case. There is nothing in
this case which at all affects political principles of any
kind ; we are not to find fault with an individual because
he has accepted office under a paetr whom he had pre-
vious opposed. Every one will admit. that the Earl of
Derby was perfectly entitled to offer office to the hon. and
learned gentlemen, and that it coatis equally competent to
the hon. and learned gentleman to accept it. This is a dis-
cussion limited—and limited only and strictly—to the
opinion which the House of Commons may have as to the
veresity of two of its most distinguished and respected
members. I confer that, having listened with the greatest
attention to the statements both of the hon. and learned
gentleman and the noble lord, I do find them reconcilable
with the different conclusions to which they have arrived—
(hear)—and I warn the house, under the circumstances,
not to visit every expression on either side with that keen
scrutiny which we only apply to official documents and
public conduct, and that we shall render the intercourse)
between man and man and between gentleman and gentle-
man more difficult every day if we take always the most
uncharitable construction, and avail ourselves with so
much eagerness of every word and circumstance in the in-
tercourse of daily life. (Hear, hear.) I think that both
tke noble lord and the hon. and learned gentleman were
gentlemanlike feelings ; and with
influencedrespect
te
the conduct lindand
ofthe hon. and learned gentleman
since that time. I must decline to pronounce any opinion
until the facts are fairly before us ; and shall consider that
so far as the present discussion is concerned, he has done
en
ffio teheirn g
of butthe vbc.hr
ea twhas b(ce choeme r
se
.h)i rill
ns a
egfe n tle m a and
opinion
an
n that,
far as the question before us this evening is concerned, the
honour of both the noble lord and of the hon. and learned
gentleman is clear and unimpeachable, and I shall be
glad to find that that is the general opinion of the house.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, I trust the house will not
lose sight of what I think arc the material results of this
discussion. The right hon. gentleman and the noble lord
opposite have complained that private communications
have been disclosed, and private letters read ; but be it re-
membered that the whole of this discussion has arisen from
a personal at tack made upon an hon. and learned gentleman
holding the high •ffice of Solicitor-General for Ireland—
an office than which there is hardly one which requires
more the confidence of the public at large in order to carry
on its functions with advantage—by a person of no less
station and dignity than one who was lately the Lord-
Lieutenant of Ireland under the Government of the Earl
of Derby. (Ministerial cheers.) That nobleman stated
that the 'appointment of the hon. and learned gentleman
was the least reputable of any made by the present Govern-
ment. With respect to this point, let the house observe
what has been the result of the present discussion. The
noble lord opposite says that when the late Government
was formed he was in friendly communication with the
hon. and learned member, for the purpose of ascertaining
what were his feelings with respect to the Government
then about to be formed. A right hon. gentleman holding
the office of Secretary at War, and who was in immediate
communication with the members of the Cabinet, au-
thorised the noble lord to state that the feelings of the
then Government towards the hon. and learned gentleman
and his friends would be of a friendly description. The
right honourable member for Bucks has said that the
talents and abilities of the present Solicitor-General for
Ireland, and the course which he had pursued in political
life, would have led him to think it quite natural that an
offer of office shceild be made to him, and that he, at least,
would not have been surprised, nor would he have disap.
proved of such an offer had it been made. (Cheers.) This,
then, is the result of the discussion!; and it is one which
the honourable and learned gentleman may, in the first
instance, be proud of obtaining from the discussion of a
question involving imputations made upon his character by
one who had held so high an office as that of the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland. That accusation is now swept
away. It is gone, and gone for ever. (Cheers.) With
respect to the point under discussion, I can hardly say
that there is a doubt as to the veracity of two members
of this house. Recollections, no doubt, may be imp. er-
fect; but the statement which the noble lord
has made confirms that of the honourable and
learned member for Athlone. There are state-
ments of different words and of different expressions, and
the noble lord, understanding, perhaps, more fully does
not attach the same sense to the words as has been done by
the hon. and learned gentleman. But even supposing
the noble lord's own account to be precisely accurate, and
his memory unfailing, I would defy any man, with a Go-
vernment in the act of formation, to have such a commu-
nication nettle to him and not have believed that the ques-
tion was whether, if he was willing to accept office, some
office was not likely to be offered to him. What are the
circumstances under which the communication was made ?
The Earl of Derby received a commission from her Ma-
jesty on a Saturday evening to form a Government, and
wo are told that upon a Thursday evening following all
the appointments were made. I very much doubt if that
is the fact, but even if it were so, still the public and
honourable members of this house would not have been
fully aware of it ; and it constantly occurred in such casea
that some of the arrangements proposed did not take
place, and some persons who would have proposed to
accept certain offices had declined, thereby creating vacan-
cies of which the public cannot be immediately aware.
The impression which the honourable and learned gentle-
man might fairly have obtained from the communication
made under these circumstances may have been confirmed
when, as the noble lord himself says, he was asked if he
had any authority for making that statement, and replied,
" Yes ;" and that the honourable and gallant member for
Essex, known to be intimate with all the concerns of the
party, was his authority for the question he had put. If
that is the case I do not think there is any difference,
which can be said to be a difference, affecting the vera-
city of the parties, particularly as regarding a conversation
which it appears was of some 20 minutes' duration, and
which occurred some months since. But there is another
circumstance which, in the words of the noble earl the late
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, are, I think, " not respect-
able" to the noble lord opposite. I think when the case
being such as he himself admits, when the noble lord re-
ceived from the Solicitor-General of Ireland a letter asking
if he had not one day been asked if an offer of office were
made to him he would be disposed to accept it, or any
similar proposal, I think the noble lord should have said,
that " when so and so occurred, the question I asked
you was of this nature, it might have given you the im-
pression—l cannot think it could have done so—but, it
may have, produced the impression that I meant to offer
you some office. That was not my meaning, but you were
fully justified in supposing that was the case." I think in
fairness the noble lord should have acted in this manner.
(Cheers.) I cannot conceive any man receiving such a let-
ter, having had such a communication, and answering it
by saying, "I have to declare that neither directly nor in-
directly, was any offer of office made to you." 'Yet that
statement was conveyed by a message to a noble lord iu the
other house, and brought forward there in the most direct
and positive manner. Such a want of fairness, candour,
and of honourable eonsieleration for the feelings and cha-
racter of a person with whom the noble lord had been upon
terms of friendship, it has seldom been my lot to witness.
(Loud cheers.) All this, be it observed, too, from a noble
lord who, though he has said he was not much used to
making speeches in that house, yet is one who is particu-
larly nice with respect to public conduct., and who, not
very long since, constituted himself a public accuser, and
should therefore be remarkably careful in the conduct
which he pursues towards those to whom he happens to be
particularly opposed. (Loud cheers.) Ido not think that
as the result of this discussion, there is any reason to doubt
the veracity of either the hon. and learned gentleman the
Solicitor-General, or of the noble lord opposite, but I
think, by his own showing and that of the right hon.
gentleman opposite, that there was every reason for the hon.
theand Earllearn ofed Dgeenrbtlyeinwaonuhtiohsangboeseen thatthe Government
willing
to offerto him ; but whether it were so or not, there is no reason
to doubt the veracity of either of the honourable members
of this house. (Cheers.) But there is no reason to regret
that it should be necessary to state private communi-
cation and read private letters in order to meet
office
ffico of
the rash and reckless accusations which
have been brought
that the late
against the hon. and learned gentleman,
and
hon. and learned gentleman,
to make an unfounded attack upon his character. (Cheers.)
hthwehnieohbltehleorecilreinumhsitsaadnederee
bsya
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland should have taken t oppor-
tunity, in the absence of the
no means justified.
assumedPAlels
toneN GTeOf
(Hear.) And the speech of the noble
lord was more open to remark and comment from
(mßoerear.elonsAisliteynt with
spetehehe
marked difference in tone between his speech. and that of
haSdirj.NtriusamiApl
i
on.
i.
hi
snorer
rl
agjchl tdtil lhe tsfhr friend
roef( °hi"? .sn r iasgt °r
ah
rteylorhon,)
indinthe
harshness cipeech of the noble lord.
:and censure in
heard, nor did ho ever hear a tone of triumph which was
(Hear.) The speech of his noble ;friend contained nothing
less justifiable, or a tone of sarea,sin which was less called
tofor,
justify th n tthhaet
tceornmt as
of e
which the
noble lor his of him. His ogle friend told a plain
tale, andone and manner win.° so consistent with the
facts of the case that they t
MAU have carried conviction to the mind of every member in the house. (Hear.) He ad-
mitted that there was nothing irreconciliable in the state-
ments of the noble lord and the
iehen, and learned gentle-
man. His noble friend admitted that he asked the hon. and
learned gentleman whether such an office had been
offered to the hon. and learned gentleman he would accept
of it—that office being at We time filled up. (Hear, hear.)
That was an important fact ,to remember. He spoke from
memory, but his impression was that all the offices of the
Government were filled at I%he time, and he believed that
the Irish law offices wore aatually filled. There were two
issues contained in the disciession which was raised that
night, ono referring to the c onversatiou which had taken
place, and the other relatil:e to the appointment of the
hon. and learned gentlemar which had been described in
another place as the least rr putablo appointment made by
the present Government. The) immediate answer to that w
that the same offer had been made by the late Government.
His reply to this was that th.s circumstances were different,
even supposing teat an offer had been made to the hon.
and learned gentleman by tita late Government. The hon.