The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-20 00:00:00

' Con in the amount. He hoped it
ought to support their own. e.. u pThedethcoellvegetees
dirainu i would be still sons attended the lectures ofith„tereeprsr.oferissoerhs.o
hither decreased in future years.
icion than the committee against it.
Lord D. STUART said there was no vote on which the : would be withdrawn ; but if et were not, he should divide
people out of
did doors looked with greater susp
ces in consideration of , versities exchn ec a arge
this. They not know ho. wit w.as employed, or what Mr. HADFItEr
Istrongmlyino,prpitoyseodftthheegpreaenptie
fTrehem:inhie-
nameless gentlemen gave their rrvi .
opts n -
part of it. The dislike felt at it generally throughout the i advantotacgaelsl Nuvphoicuhththeehyopuosessteosstead;tKeetnatha
jeoyn.htyadoftthheeepT,
country was not likely to be lessened at present, in conse- , tery .
n which they by their big tted
quence of the suspicions of revelations which. had spdreand I;
ltaowssupepxocritwttnet.i idiusseionntesnir.w.
through the county
.with regard to secret s.ervicefs,da.ffnertenet
Mr' . 13' LACKETT wished to put a question to the noble
watching and inquiring about. tohetperocie,
' lord the member for the city of London on this subject.
individuals. He was not going Somee
itsiittniee
saNgo th
de noblee elluvre,st expressedtteda cetmap
rhoovpeem
et that at
st t
nth:,
'eechtngtos the at ,
present, but he thought the house had° aj right to as itnouci,li
He as it was possible to give with reg.aerra(
mittee i their system Paned he said he should be loth to invite the
He hoped the Government would tell the
iril wilingjre wasto p raonp poste
unhappyc er tai n
vaguenessre form swi
aboutthin onethi
so r
attwatoenyieeanrts.;
whether the sum now asked for was the same asclast year. I oiistnee of Parliament unless they showed themselves tua-
Mr. A. PELLATT begged also to ask whether any part
of the money went to remunerate the detective police ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said the sum asked for this year was 1 and therefore he put it to the noble lord, in the interest of
and no part of the ' the universities themselves, whether he would not fix some
eeactly the same as that of last. year ; definite period within which, if they did not reform them-
money went to the detective police. selves, he would think it his duty to ask for the assistance
The vote was then agreed to.
Votes of 216,4201., for providing stationery, printing, of Parliament. (Hear.)
and paper for the two Houses of Parliament, and Lord J. RUSSELL, with regard to this vote, must be
binding,
the several departments of Government in England, Scot- allowed to mention that it had been stated by the univer-
and, Ireland, and the colonies, and of 16,0001. for law sities themselves that they felt aggrieved by the stamp
charges paid by the Solicitor to the Treasury in England, duties payable on taking degrees. They considered they
Were agreed to without discussion.
were more burdened by this public taxation than benefited
On a sum of 17,7001. being proposed for sheriffs' ex- by the votes annually made by the House of Commons.
penses, officers of the Court of Exchequer, Rec. This was the statement he had heard, and he would say so
Mr. WISE, Lord D. STUART, and Mr. M. CHAMBERS far as this, that the whole of the question as to this vote
severally expressed a wish to know how this sum, which and the burdens upon the universities should be considered
seemed a large one, was appropriated . „
by the Government. If any arrangement could be arrived
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was principally a sum which at by which the present vote should be rendered unneces-
had been usually paid to sheriffs for charges which they in- sary, he should be very glad • ' but at present the vote
carred in the execution of their office, which they paid out could not be renounced, as it had been adopted on the
of their own pockets in the first instance, and of which faith of arrangements made by former governments. He
they suosequently rendered an account. did not think he had ever stated that if they thought it
The vote was then agreed to. necessary the Government would propose within one or
A vote of 8,8301. was then proposed to defray the charges two years a measure for the management of the universities.
of the salaries of the Commissioners of the Courts for the He said he did not think it expedient to proceed at present
Relief of Insolvent Debtors. --meaning in the present session, but beyond the present
After a short discussion the vote was agreed to. session he held the Government to be perfectly free to act
The next vote was for a sum of 107,4051. to defray the as should seem best.
law expenses of Scotland. Sir R. INGLIS said the Crown, in its liberality, had in
On the proposal of a sum of 56,950/. to defray the charges former years either founded these professorships, or largely
of criminal prosecutions in Ireland, endowed them out of Crown property, and if Parliament
Colonel DUNNE said that he considered that if the had thought fit to take that property, subject to all charges
tern of equalisation of taxation were adopted with respect upon it, it was a little too much to attempt now to violate
to Ireland, the same principle of equality ought to be ap- a bargain made with the Crown at the time.. About 20
plied to the expenses of the country, and particularly in years ago another hon. member for Lambeth brought the
e-
the case of criminal prosecutions and law charges, and he ward a proposition of this kind, and Mr. Springßice, th
would be glad to receive an assurance from the Govern- present Lord Monteagle, then one of the Lords.d of theb
anent that the same principle should be applied with regard Treasury, laid on the table the documentary evidence,
the
iaety.
to the charges of prosecution in Ireland as prevailed in which what he had just stated was proved. to b
England. With regard to the sums paid by the universities in stamps
Mr. M‘MAHON trusted that some alteration would be for degrees, his noble friend the First Minister in that
made in the present system with regard to the appoint- house had stated it was double the amount
trtehceived fort
• tent of Crown prosecutors. He believed that at present paid in
If the Government woul ac e amoun
the failure of Justice was in too many instances to be Paul in .stam. ps for degrees the University of Oxford would
traced to the fact of effete nominees of the Attorney-Gene- not be indisposed to re-consider the receipt of the smaller
rat having to contend with young, active, and more expo. sum to the professors. But as to adopting the professorial
rienced men than themselves.
system, admitting persons to residence not attached to any
Mr. BROTHERTON wished to know if the hon. and college,e and destroying the wills of the founders, as sug-
He
gallant member for Portarlington would wish to see equa- g tedy b his noble friend, he couldonly repeat
what he
lity between the two countries carried out so as to include had already said, such a change was veryimprobable.
the payment of the constabulary in Ireland from local rates would
divide against the amendment of the hon. member
Si
as in this country, rather than be borne as at present by foa.L. ambeth.
Sir DE LACY EVANS thought the Universities of Ox-
the Consolidated Fund?
Colonel DUNNE would have no objection to that change, ford and Cambridge stood on a very. different. footing from
provided everything else were placed upon the same the University of London, for which a similar vote would
next be taken. Oxford and Cambridge had very large
footing.
Sir J. YOUNG thought that the whole subject of the Property belonging to them, and the system of education
there was most expensive. It was very proper to promote
local taxation of Ireland was a question well worthy the
attention of gentlemen connected with Ireland, and pro- the education of the people, but the most opulent classes
raised the best consideration of the Government to any of the country received their education at Oxford and
well-considered proposition on the subject. He was not
Cambridge, and the charges were abundantly large. Know-
m
prepared to agree in the conclusion of the hon. member for
Wexford (Mr. M Mahon), as
, to the propae:y of adopting , possessed many sinecure appointments, and that the higher
in Ireland the same system as that which 1 revailed in En6v. classes alone were educated within their walls, he did
land with respect to puulie prosecutions, rather than the
;think it inconsistent to ask the public to contribute Be*
ono which at present existed there, and which had been Isum of 2,0001. under the name of professors.
found to work so well in Scotland. He thought it desir- Mr. A. PELLATT agreed that the University of London
, was on a very different footing from the Universities of
able that there should be public officers in Ireland to con-
duct prosecutions ; but did nut consider that the present , Oxford and Cambridge. The latter not only excluded
s stem was aeffect one, i those who could not conform to the established religion of
Mr. SCULLYy trusted that the attention of the Govern-
i
, the country, but prevented any divulgement of facts with
ment would be directed to sonic mode of making the office i regard to finances and endowments, by the imposition of
of Crown prosecutor in Ireland more efficient than it was oaths. They ought to look with great jealousy on societies
at present. : that would not give the slightest information as to what
The vote was the agreed to. . were their incomes, or how they were derived. They must
A sum of 36,01 d/. was next proposed for defraying the assume that their resources were abundant, and, therefore,
expenses of the metropolitan police force in Dublin. i a contribution from the State unnecessary. He was a
:IT.. WILIAAMee ebjeeted to the vote on the ground great friend to education, and was glad to see the system
Laat the expenses of that force, in a. iditieu to that of the , of instruction by professors extended, but he thought the
c netaeulaey, ought nut to be borne by the Consolidated Universities of Oxford and Cambridge had money enough
Filed. 1 of their own, and should oppose the vote.
The vote was as agreed to, as was also a vote for 240,060/. Mr. W. WILLIAMS would not divide the committee
to defray charges formerly borne upon the county rate. if he had the assurance of the noble lord that the Govern-
On the proposal to vote a sum of 16,830/. for the charges went would take these matters into consideration.
of inspection and general superintendence over all the pri- Mr. H. DRUMMOND thought the argument of the hon.
sons of the Unit d Kingdom, baronet the member for the University of Oxford had been
Mr. LUC,A Ssu e.gested the postponement of the vote, on either entirely evaded or overlooked. The argument was
account of the importance of the subject—and which at 1 this—That this sum was the property of the universities ;
that hour of the night could not be fully dimmed— as ' that it was granted by the Crown ; that Parliament chose
affecting prisoners of the Roman Catholic persuasion. to take upon themselves the payment of sums for which
Sir J. YOUNG said it was important that the votes I the Crown was pledged ; and now, having done that, they
wanted to break the bargain, and come and talk there of
should be proceeded with, and if there was any inforina
time which the hon. member might require on the subject, honour and integrity. (Hear, hear.)
he should be happy to afford it him. Mr. W. WILLIAMS asked, if this sum were granted by
Sir DE LAC a' EVANS app roved of the consideration of the Crown, why the vote was taken for it annually, why it
this question being delayed, on the ground that it was not was not placed on the Civil List ? There would be a similar
expected that the house would have got into committee of vote for Scotch universities, but there was property in
supply so early. Scotland belonging to the Crown, which produced an an-
Lord J. RUSSELL admitted that if the previous busi- nual revenue to the State, and, therefore, to that vote he
ness upon the paper had occupied the greater portion of did not object.
.
the evening, it would have been necessary to postpone the Mr H. DRUMMOND reminded the bon. member the.
committee of supply ; but, having got into the committee Parliament took the property of the Crown with all its
incumbrances, and now it was proposed to repudiate the
of supply, he could not admit the necessity of not going on.
incumbrances and. break the bargain they had made.
They were now going through the votes regularly, and he
hoped that if honourable members had objections to any (Hear, hear.)
was then agreed o, as were
particular votes votes they would now
statehem. Notice had The vo to
3,955/. for the expenses of tthe universities of London.
been given that the house would go into supply this
8,0261. for grants to Scottish universities.
t. ceeitig.
31r. WILLIAMS said he should object to any votes :.'.oo'. for the Royal Irish Academy.
3001. for the Royal Hibernian Academy.
being taken after twelve o'clock. [lt was now a quarter to
eleven.] On the proposal to vote 2,7501. for the salaries of theolo-
ei _ _I T- I/ llitia-77,T_T......._,,,,-3,-.10.- -.4..--.....•-..,..0 Mn a:dyneme ciceeleenpfoagggi4 kifae and for the retired allowances
ge n as such but to public money
TUTU, an therefore, no other course was left open to him, 1 being given for religious teaching of' any kind. In consis-
he should take a division to-night, and the discussion on tency, therefore they were bound to refuse this vote.
the br:neine e aup of the report. (A laugh.) He moved that 1 Sir R. INGLIS said the hon. member could only answer
the chairman report progress.
for himeeli and the views which dictated his vote, but he,
Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to take the discus- for one,' had never scrupled to declared he objected to pay-
Sion on the bringing up of the report; but he could not I itig any money for teaching that which he conscientiously conSCllt, to stop the progress of the committee now, merely- disapproved. In conscience he disapproved of the teaching
because the honourable gentleman asnot ready to make in Maynooth, and on that ground he objected to the
with regard to Maynooth • but that was not the ground on
hie s',etement. vote
dos vote
which he conceived himself justified in objecting to any
1 was then agreed to.
On the next vote, flat the sum of 407,6671., be granted
to defray the charge of the Government prisons and convict other vote on the table of the house.
Mr. A. PELLATT said the great objection of the Non-
establishments at home conformists was to any allowance of the State for the
,
Mr. LUCAS moved that the chairman do report pro- I teaching of religion, and, therefore, he should join in
press. • (Cries of " oh, oh.")
Lord J. RUSSELL trusted the committee would not voting against this sum.
The CHAIRMAN asked if the hon. member proposed to
agree to the proposal. (Hear, hear.) There was certainly divide ?
no reason for reporting progre sso early as eleven o'clock. Mr. MIALL said he should certainly divide the corn-
case a
Mr. LUCAS said the noble lord had put the cmittee upon the whole of this class of votes.
he (Mr. Lucas) was not prepared to bring on the question. f
l i,eStrangers
(t were ordered to withdraw, and the committee
He had not put it on that ground, but upon
that it would lead to a longer debate thantliere the
was tune 1 diFor the vote
for this evening, and because several hon. gentlemen who Against it.
wished to take part in the discussion were now absent. In
the details appended to the vote he found several sums,
amounting to 4,520/., for chaplains and other religious in-
structors in these prisons. In the vote for Irish prisons
evens were included for Protestant chaplains, for Roman
Catholic Chaplains, and for Presbyterian chaplains , in
other words, in Ireland the fact was recognised that there'
were criminals of different religious, and some sort of pro-
vi.don was thus made for their religious instruction and re-
formation. But in the vote for Govern went • ‘
pls./12s in
England not a single sixpence was asked for the payment
of iceman Catholic chaplains, nor was anything
paid in
the local or county prisons for Roman Catholic chaplains,iheueh a large sum was proposed to be voted for the , main-
tenance of prisoners in those gaols. Co inty gaols were
entirely under the management of the secretary of State
for the Home Department • the rules were sent to him
every year, ami any alterations, amendments, or additions
which he made were obligatory and binding upon the local.
authorities. County prisons, as well as Government pri-
sons, were therefore, as regarded this question, under the
maagement of the Home Secretary. What provision, then,
was made for the religious instruction of Roman Catholic
prisoners ? None either in England or Semi tied—with the
exception of Millbank. Now he wanted to have atunity of laying the whole of this case before thellooefspe°l-
-
detail, for it was impossible, without discussion, that so
gross an injustice and absurdity should continue to be per-
petrated. The motive for prison discipline was reforma-
tion—but with regard to Roman Catholic prisoners, refor-
mation was began with a profession of hypocrisy. The
case was a grave one—it would require an answer from
the Government, and it would certainly lead to a length-
ened discussion on the part of gentlemen who took the same
- Ideeeelf_ He had, therefore,
.no alternative but to
press his motion. To twee tn. e• • 1,174.,,,T. 11111.4 *oz.," +11,,, dis-
cussion afterwards was an absurdity, and he had only pro-
posed it by way of joke.
Mr. V. SMITH said the proposition to report progress
was unreasonable and unusual. At the same time, if the
honourable gentleman was determined to state the case on
this motion, as well as on the bringing up of the report
the loss of time would be very great. Under such cir-
cumstances, therefore, it would be better for his noble
friend to postpone the present vote, and proceed with
the others. (Hear, hear, hear.) There must be some
discussion upon subjects arising out of this vote, which
would require some explanation from his noble friend
the Home Secretary. There was an increase
120,000/. in the vote for special service to provide of
p
commodation for convicts, in consequence of the Isa
-Hoe of transportation. There had been no discussion in
his house on that subject; and, from what had passed in
another place, it seas left in doubt in what position the
question of transportation stood. There must, therefore,
be a discussion in which the Government would state what
their views were with regard to secondary punishments.
Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to the course sug-
gested by his right hon. friend. (Hear, hear.) With re-
gard to the important subject alluded to by his right hon.
friend, it was undoubtedly desirable that on some rather
early occasion the views of the Government should be stated
in_t this house on the question of transportation. (Hear.)
subject
would be necessary before long to bring in a bill on that
; and in moving for such a bill the views of the Go-
vernment , rnment would be stated by his noble friend the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department.
The vote
. The _ was then withdrawn.
following votes were next agreed to without discus-
sion :-
160,4651. for the expense of the maintenance of prison-
ers in county gaols, the philanthropic institution and
ts.
• lunatic asylums, and the expenses of the removal of ccon-
-69,5181. for expenses connected with
the transportation
of convicts.
244,154/, for the expense of the convict establishments in
the colonies.
260,0001. for public education in Great
182,0731., the sum requixed by the Britain.
tionad Education in Ireland. - e selamaissioners of Zsra.
d art, including
44,476/. for the department of seem,
eaannd Ireland, and
geological survey of Great Britain
museums of geology, London and Dublin.
6,3401. for the expenses of the Royal Dublin Society,
On the motion that 2,006/. be voted to defray thle
of the salaries and allowances granted to certain areal. charge
iti the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge ' - essera
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the vote. lie understood
_ s
that the income of one college was 150,000/. per annii
,
and that of another 130,0001. per annum; and he had go
Hesitation in saying that establishments possessing such
vast amounts of wealth ought to be ashamed of co
mina
upon the public taxes for these votes. A return obtainea
4i few Pan Ago ahowod that ouly two, thioo, or Am? “42
_

130
21

Majority
A Vote of 1,6811. to defray the probable expenses of the
Queen's University in Ireland was agreed to.
Votes of 55,8401. for the establishment and expenses, of
22,7101. for the required new buildings, and of 1,5001. for
the purchases of the British Museum, were agreed to.
A vote of 4,2621. 19s. 10d. for the expenses of the Na-
tional Gallery was agreed to,
A vote of 2,2131. for scientific works and experiments
was agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, on the motion of
Lord J. RUSSELL, and the house resumed.
HACKNEY CARRIAGE (METROPOLIS) BILL.
On the motion that the Speaker leave the chair,
Sir R. INGLIS urged that the bill before the house was
one which ought to be referred to a select committee, as
the amount concerned in it was so large, and the number of
persons' livelihoods which it affected so numerous. The
sum of 1,700,000/. was involved in the decision referring to
hackney carriages or omnibuses; the sum of 800,0001. in
that referring to cabs ; and there were other considerations
in the matter higher than those of pounds, shillings, and
pence. In various cases bills affecting large classes—for
instance the Buildings Regulation Act, and a measure on
the subject of hackney carriages in 1835—had been referred
to a select committee, and he thought that there was no
reason why this should not be so too. Had his honourable
friend examined any great body of the persons with whose
property he meddled ? -Had he investigated the matter,
and was he prepared to allocate the amount which they
should receive ? And was he to be supported by the advo-
cates of free trade and unrestricted competition in an at-
tempt to induce the house to adopt a minimum of wages
for a particular class of individuals ? (Hear, hear.) But
there were other and higher considerations. This measure
involved al6v the liberty of the subject. Ir. clause 14, he
found a large class of undefined offences to which no penalty
was attached by the clause itself. But that clause must be
constructed by clause 7, which provided that for every of-
fence to which no specific penalty is appended the offender
shall, at the discretion of the magistrate, be liable to a
penalty not exceeding 405., or an imprisonment for any
period not exceeding one month. (Hear, hear.) Such a
power as that ought not to be hastily granted by the house,
and certainly not without previous inquiry. (Hear, hear.)
In case of summary conviction before a magistrate, there
ought to be a power of appeal. (Hear, hear.) And what
was the objection to that proposition ? Why, that there
had been a conviction by a magistrate quashed. When an
analogous bill was introduced in 1835, the Government of
that day thought it not unbecoming to submit the matter
to the consideration of a select committee, and he trusted
the house would follow that example in the present case.
(Hear, hear.) He admitted that the hon. gentleman pro-
posed to give the supreme decision to a person of whom he
had never spoken, except with honour; but he did not
think that even Sir Richard Mayne ought to be entrusted
with such a power as that conferred by the present bill.
(Hear.) He had previously asked his hon. friend to give the
power of appeal, but that request had been refused. He
now proposed to go further, and ask the house to refer the
bill to a select committee. (Hear, hear.) Before con-
cluding bis remarks, he would jut state to the house the
amount of property respecting which it was asked to
legislate. Before a single journey was made by the omni-
buses now in use, a capital of 414,0001. had been sunk
in their construction. The annual cost to the pro-
prietors for wages was 436,800/. ; for repairs, 62,400/. ;
for corn to the horses, 358,0001. ; for hay, 117,000/. ;
for straw, 56,000/. ; for wear and tear of horses and
shoeing, 94,000/. ; for duty, 202,0001.—making a general
total of not less than 1,709,600. The amount for cabs was
of course smaller ; but before a single journey could be
made by 3,500 cabs, the capital expended had been
352,500/. ; the annual cost for 7,000 horses was 272,0001.;
the wear and tear, 50,0001.; and, including the duty, the
whole expense was upwards of 700,0001.—making a total
amount of nearly 2,500,0001. The duty paid by these
vehicles amounted to nearly 300,0001., whilst the duty paid
by all the railways did not amount to more than 262,0001.
Where the property and the livelihood and liberty of so
many persons were involved, he thought he had shown a
case for the motion, with which he would now conclude—
(namely, that the bill be referred to a select committee.
Hear, hear.)
Lord D. STUART seconded the amendment. There was
xa great prejudice against people connected with hackney
xineameannrdonthoerbad an
doubt most honourable
withble a
memberscabm cabman
—acat
laugh)-13-1A that ought not to prevent the house looking
bcarillewfullanyelnl2nt.h! bill and amending its provisions. The
a sidnation of,l_nplute details that it required the n-
of "°'°9l, coululittee. who would bestow uron