The Sun.
London, England, 1853-06-04 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 4, 185 a

prey; all property was confiscated; no one could invite
another to his house without the permission of the rajah.
The people everywhere were exposed to plunder and out-
rage.' This' was the state of things during the latter
part of the dynasty of the Great Mogul—a period which
has been so frequently quoted as that in which Hindoostan
was peaceful and prosperous, and from which it has fallen
into a state of degradation ever since it came under our
withering sway. The state of things became still worse
under Nadir Shah, who, like a consuming fire, overspread
the face of the whole country; and if there could be a
more unhappy state than under Nadir Shah, India expe-
rienced it when, after his departure, she fell into the pewer
of the Mahrattas, whose only object was rapine and plun-
der, and in the pursuit of these objects they committed
enormities that one shudders to think of. The whole
population of conquered towns was massacred. Delhi
was on three different occasions seized by them, and given
up to plunder, and on the third occasion all who were not
able to escape were massacred. The last storming of the
city occurred in 1707. (Hear, hear.) But then we are
told that justice is badly administered. Here again we
are compared, to our sad disadvantage, with the adminis-
tration of justice in the native states. Well, I will read
my honourable friends an extract from a native newspaper
published at Delhi, on this point :—" Let us give a spe-
cimen of what the English really do for this country. In
former times, under our vaunted ancient kings, there were
many places in this very city (Delhi) where a poor man
could not venture, after sunset, without the chance of
having his turban stolen off his head, and now a weak old
man may pass in safety over that same ground, with a bag
containing 1,000 rupees in his hand. The roads through
the Wilderness were so unsafe in former days that no one
dared to travel without an armed guard, and robberies in
the jungle were of constant occurrence. Now the lone-
liest traveller knows no fear. We often hear the praises
of this king, or that wuzeer, who, perhaps, built a paltry
seraj, or laid a dawk to Cabool to provide himselt with
musk melons ; but who does not know that our govern-
ment by the construction of good roads, has placed the
luxuries of distant places within the reach of the poorest
people ? Then, as to the adminstration of the laws. Un-
der the native rulers of old, justice was put up for sale,
and this is now unblushingly done in the independent na-
tive states ; while, under the British rule, rich and poor,
black and white, Christian, Hindoo, and Mussulman, all
justice. The Kings and Rajahs of old
ns as they sat on the judgment seat;
adleifikeedob atlalinreelqienaol
whereas the British study the religious scruples of every
suitor, consulting the Mooftees when Mussulmen are con-
cerned, and the Pundits in the case of Hindoos, and they
do their best to discourage litigation, by promoting the
adjudication of cases in Panchayet." Upon the same sub-
ject we examined Sir George Clerk :—Sir George Clerk
says—" On the decline of the Mahomedan Empire, every
village found it necessary to repair the defences which had
existed, or to erect new ones, if they had none before.
All Upper India was covered with bands of horsemen—
Sikhs, dashing at everything, and the inhabitants only re-
pelled them by erecting little citadels in the middle of the
villages, with watchmen aloft, on a high look-out. The
bricks which formed those redoubts are all taken for the
houses of the cultivators ; there are no such defences now
to be seen in the British provinces." Now, I ask if all
this speaks of the deterioration of the country under the
British rule in the opinion of the natives ? My hon. friend
may, from his knowledge of the subject, be better informed
than the natives themselves, but he will forgive me for
saying that I believe the testimony of this native editor
rather than any information that may exist in Europe. It
is stated by several natives, and confirmed by the testimony
of the resident, which I saw the the other day, that in the
state of Oude violence land rapine have risen to such an
extent that capitalists dare not quit their houses till they
have provided themselves with an escort from the Rajah.
And be it remembered that this is the state into which the
people in our districts are represented as flying, in order
to escape our rule. There was certainly some curious evi-
dence given with respect to that last assertion ; for it was
represented to us that the people fled to avoid living under
English law, and to avoid the necessity under which they
found themselves to commit perjury in consequence of
having to put a stamp to their receipts. So long as they
were allowed to write out their receipts on unstamped
paper, they were under no temptation to commit perjury,
but the moment they were obliged to use a stamp the
temptation became irresistible. That is certainly a very
curious fact. We have often had one small state, the state
of Rampore, quoted to us as one where the condition of
the natives is better than under British rule. Now it hap-
pens that the present rajah before he succeeded to the
throne had been a district collector in the company's ser-
vice, so that ne learned the principles of administering the
affairs of his state with justice and moderation from the
very parties whom he is said to shame by his example. I
have no reason to think that the works which are some-
times quoted, and that on high authority too, as having
been liberally and generously built by native princes, are
at all superior to, or oven to be compared with, those that
have been executed under our rule. No person is better
acquainted with the ancient history of India, or with the
character of the works that have been executed in Up-
per India, both in the present and in former ages, than Sir
Henry Elliott, and he says that to the north-western pro-
vinces at least cannot be applied the taunt that we have
done nothing that can be compared with the Mahratta
princes in the formation of roads, bridges, and tanks.
Even in the seat and centre of their dominion there are
now hundreds of miles of good district roads where none
ever existed before ; besides 400 miles of a trunk road of a
better character than any that exists in Europe, and to
which the Emperors—never in the slightest degree con-
tributed. Instead of wasting the supply of water on the
frivolities of fountains, we contrive with it to fertilise
whole provinces ; the scientific survey of the north-western
provinces alone is sufficient to proclaim the superiority of
our sway, where every field is entered, and every man is
entitled to claim his own property. When I read these
things, I am at a loss to account for the assertions so reck-
lessly made, even by some of those who are acquainted
with the subject, that we have disgracefully neglected our
possessions in India. (Cheers.) Not many years ago there
was an odious system of transit duties between one district
and another, so that there was, upon an average, a custom-
house every eight miles, where all articles of merchandise
paid a new impost. They are now entirely abolished.
Sir R. INGLIS : How long ?
. . . .

Sir C. WOOD—They have been abolished at different
periods in different presidencies. At Madras, which was
one of the worst, they were abolished in 1843, which
caused the revenue to fall from 36 to 18 Lacs of rupees. I
say, then, I see no evidence to lead me to suppose that the
condition of the people of India is not so good now as it
was when they were under the rule of their native princes.
If hon. gentlemen will turn to a book, not of very recent
date—l refer to " Bishop Heber s Tour in India"—they
wilt find accounts of the condition of the people which lead
unavoidably to the inference that they were then in a state
of high prosperity. Want of time alone prevents me from
quoting instances, but I would rather refer to a more recent
publication, because it states the condition of the people
in a portion of India which is under the ryotwar system—
a system that the house is aware has been strongly im-
pugned as degrading to the people. It is a publication by
the collector at Salem, Mr. Black. He says :—" Agricul-
tural labour can readily be obtained for ls. 3d. a week, the
articles of daily consumption being cheap in the extreme.
The Government demand for an acre of dry land, 28.8 d.,
scarcely exceeds what a common labourer can earn in
a fortnight, about which amount of labour will find
him with an ample supply of salt for the whole
year. The signs of improvement cannot be mistaken.
When the people throw down the walls of their
villages and towns—when the cottage shines out among
the distant fields ' • when the children drive the cattle
to pasture, and troops of women pass fearlessly along
the public roads, seeking the neighbouring markets,
these, surely, are different times to those that saw
the ryot go to the plough with his spear or his
matchlock in his hand ; when the trade of the country
carried on bullocks, straggled from village to village,
guarded over by armed men, and the merchants feared to
engage in cultivation, because such gains could not be hid
with sufficient ease. The greatly increased fertility of the
soil, the increasing traffic, the improved bazaars, the value
that land, even under the present system, is everywhere
acquiring, all show clearly that capital is accumulating,
and that the condition of the people is better than it was."
It may be said that these statements refer only to particular
districts, though I know no reason for supposing that they
are not fair specimens of the state of things now existing. all
over India. Still more convincing is the proof that arises
from the increasing power of the people, not only over ar-
ticles of production, but also over articles of consumption.
With regard to articles of production, I see that the average
exportations of sugar and molasses during the ten years
ending in 1842 was 444,000 cwt., while the average exporta-
tions during the ten years since that time has been 1,339,000
cwt. The exportation of rum during the first period was
233,000 gallons, during the latter 600,000 gallons ; coffee at
the former period 2,358,0001b5., during the latter 3,256,000
lbs. ; cotton in the first period 58,000,0001b5., in the latter
68,699,0001b5. So with regard to their powers of consump-
tion. The value of the cotton piece goods—and this is some
comfort for the Manchester cotton-spinner—imported into
Calcutta in 1833-34 was 700.0001. ; in 1850-51 it was
2,950,0001. Surely this power of consumption must tell
upon the condition of the people. And then take the whole
of the exports and imports through the whole of India. The
value of the whole imports in 1834-35 was 7,993,0001.: in
1839-40 17,334,0001., being an increase of 140 per cent.
The exports were in 1834-35 4,761,000/. ; in 1839-40
10,300,0001., being an increase of .112 per cent. (Hear.)
Now, with all our boasted increase in trade and com-
merce, still the increase in the value of our exports for the
same periods is, not 112, but GG per cent., or exactly
one half ; so that the improvement in India, as measured
by exports, goes on in a double ratio of increase to the im-
provement of this country. Can there be a doubt, after
this increase, that the condition of India has not deterio-
rated under our rule—can we hesitate to believe, both
from the increased power of production, and from the in-
dustry of the people. that better proof cannot be afforded
of the improvement in the condition of the people. There
are few other topics which, if I were not admonished by
the clock, I feel anxious to mention. (Hear, hear.) I have
aeay
placing
gd to the trigonometrical survey of the coun-
try, which promises to be of vast importance. We are
towns of the liundcioan
also in the course of establishing a system of electric tele-
graphs,npeecntiinosnuiwai;th each other all the great
and it has afforded me
great satisfaction to read the accounts which hrive been
transmitted home of the attention that has been paid to
the improvement of the condition of the people in the
matter of vaccination and in schools—points of this kind
which in other countries are left to the care of individuals,
but which in India, above all countries, it is necessary
should be done by the Government. I said before that many
things had been loft undone that ought to have been done,
and many things have been incompletely done which might
have been perfected ; but this credit at least is due to the
Indian Government, that those administrators who have
most devoted themselves to the condition of the people have
been most supported by the Government at home, who
have invariably urged them to persevere in their course—
who have sanctioned the expense incurred, and who have
encouraged and cheered them by their approbation. I will
only add here the opinion of of one of the ablest of our mo-
derndiah—itorri.
Ka
aus,yow,hionhhiass "
History of the wars of Affghan-
written an account of the affairs of
In
istae—who concludes his review of what has been done of
late years by saying that while he admits much has been
omitted; and that in many cases more mighthave been done
still more goods things have been done in India, more
earnest, renous, and enlightened legislation has been passed
since 1833 than in the whole of the two centuries and a
sqfuraartiderl ohfavßeriwteisahriecciotnhneexhioounsewwiitthh Itnhdisiaa.ce
oWunetlb; Ibuatml
felt it fair to the Indian authorities at home that I should
state the result of their administration during the last 20
years, as I felt that we might be misled by the misrepresenta-
tions, which have been industriously circulated on this sub-
ject, and which in some quarters have met with a belief to
which they are not fairly entitled, if I did not put before
the house what I believe to be a true and faithful picture
of the state of India during the last twenty years. I am
ready to admit it does not follow that because all these
great improvements have taken place, that therefore the
government of India, either at home or in India, is the best
that can be devised. But I say that if we aro to test the go-
vernment of India by the results of its administration, there
is no ground whereupon to condemn it as inefficacious, in.

efficient, or as regardless of the interests of the country com-
mitted to its charge. f fully admit that if we test the
merits of the Indian Government by the knbwn principles
upon which a government should be formed, it is as great
an anomaly as our Indian empire itself. I fully admit that
it is incredible, and almost fabulously true, that such an
empire should exist as our Indian empire, extending over
a territory of 2,000 miles in length, and upwards of 1,000
in breadth, and that 150,000,000 of people should be ruled
by a handful of foreigner's of different religion, language,
and habits—that this mighty empire should be admin-
istered by less than eight hundred civil servants (for
that is the number)—and it has not increased with
the increase of our territories, but, on the contrary,
diminished—that a Governor-General should be sent
out there for five or six years, to exercise a power
greater than almost any sovereign in the world —that he
should be controlled and governed by a body of twenty-
four gentlemen elected by a body of men, not perhaps the
best qualified to judge of the merits of statesmen—and that
that body of men should be controlled by an Indian Min-
ister, who, in the arrangements of parties, is often put
into his place without any previous knowledge of the
country over which he is called to preside. No man could
soberly sit down now, and construct a government for such
a mighty empire as India, such as that which now exists.
The present form of government has, however, grown up
as our Indian empire has grown ; faults it may have, de-
fects it may have, but whatever faults it may have, that
government cannot be so badly administered under which
that empire has so greatly grown in extent, in pro-
sperity, and in the improved condition of the people.
That the government has been made fit for its task at va-
rious times, by repeated alterations, is a fact of which every-
body is aware, and the Government is not now what it
was 20 years ago, nor was it then what it was 20 years be-
fore. The time having now come when it is 'necessary for
us to deal with the Government of India, and to provide
for it after the 30th April in the next year, it becomes
our duty now to consider in what shape it is most advis-
able that such a Government should be framed in order
best to insure the welfare of the people of India, and,
which was inseparably connected with it, the interest of
this country. The Government of India must necessarily
be considered under the two distinct branches of the home
Government, and the Government in India. Various faults
have been found with the Government at home; it has been
stated in the first place that there is no responsibility, and in
the earlier part of the session the house was told that
the Court of Directors were an obstruction to the
other portion of the Government, and later they had
been told that it was a mere fiction, and ought to be done
away with. Complaints have also been made with respect
to the mode of electing directors—of the existence of the
patronage in their hands—of the mode in which such pa-
tronage was exercised—and of the manner in which the
business in the various departments at home was conducted,
and which has been characterised as slow, tedious, and unne-
cessarily expensive. Under these heads may be included the
principal accusations which have been brought against the
home government of India. With respect to the first two of
these, they were contradictory and opposed to each other,
for it was impossible that the Court of Directors could be at-
one and the same time an obstruction to good government,
and so complete a fiction as to be dispensed with as useless-;.`
and, as usual in cases of this kind, neither of the extreme
opinions were correct. The mistake into which the parties
appear to have fallen appears to have arisen not from
considering the Government of India in its practical cha-
racter, but as it might be carried oa if each person con-
nected with it chose to exercise to the utmost the rights
which belonged to him. Such a course would be as
absurd as to suppose that each part of the Legislature
may put an end to the proceedings in Parliament, or
that the business of this house could not be carried on
because, by the extreme exercise of his right, any
honourable member could put an end to the proceed-
ings upon any measure of importance. What we have
to deal with is the actual effect, the practical working
of the existing system of government for India.
Upon this point little or no information can be
obtained from the examination of witnesses coming from
India, who have never taken any part in transactions
connected with the Government. Now the business of
the home Government may be divided into two distinct
parts; one, which may be called the political relations of the
government of India with foreign states—questions of
peace and war, which are transacted through what is called
the " secret committee of the India House," and for which
not the committee, but the Government of this country are
altogether and entirely responsible. Upon that point, there-
fore, there can be no doubt as to responsibility. The secret
committee merely act as the organ for conveying to India
those directions which are sent from the Board of Control,
and the President of the Board of Control is in that respect
only the organ of the general Government, precisely as a
Secretary of State is the organ of the general Government
in conveying instructions to any person to whom they may be
required to be sent. A good deal of unnecessary importance
had been attached to a declaration of a noble lord, that he
alone was responsible for the order directing the army of
India to crass the Indus. The fact is, that he was no more
responsible for the order than the Secretary of State would
have been responsible for the order directing Wellington to
cross the Pyrennees. The Government of the country was
as responsible for the war in India as for any war which
might be carried on in Europe, Asia, or Africa. In addi-
tion to this there is the transaction of the ordinary busi-
ness of the administration of affairs in India, in which the
Court of Directors take a very considerable and important
part. Every dispatch is addressed to them, and sent by
them ; all questions bearing on the subject are in the first
instance considered by them ; they have the initiative in
every case. Grants of money cannot originate in any way
with the Board of Control. In patronage, except in some of the
higher appointments, they have an uncontrolled sway, but
in a great portion of their business they are liable to the
check of the Board of Control. The dispatches are sent up
to the Board of Control, and alterations may be made in
them, and those who are sent back are carefully revised ;
and I must do the Court of Directors the justice to say
that, short as has been my experience, I have reason
to know that the most careful consideration has been
given to every important despatch. (Hoar, hear.)
It is quite true that the President of the Board of Control
has the power of overruling the Court of Directors, and I
fully admit that, so far as a single Minister is competent
to decide in his own department, I am responsible to
this house for every act of administration just in the
same manner as the Secretary of State for the Colonies is
responsible for the measures which he may recommend.
(Hear.) In substance there is not the slightest difference,
though there may be some difference in form. The respon-
sibility of the Government in connection with Indian affairs
is not a new question. It has been stated, over and over
again, in debates upon this subject, and was well known to
everybody who thought it worth while to inquire into the,
matter. Lord Grenville, in 1813, in language far better
than any I can use, said, speaking on this subject :—" The
law which passed in 1784, the source of all these benefits,
the very line of demarcation from which commences the
good government of India, did actually commit this whole
authority to commissioners appointed by the Crown. In
the public board, so constituted by the wise and necessary
interposition of parliament, and continued, with slight
variations, by succeeding acts has ever since resided a com-
plete and effective superintendence over every part of the
political affairs of India. That government has still
been exercised, indeed, in the name of the company,
as the company also has used the name of the Asiatic
powers, whose misrule it superseded ; but both
the control and the responsibility of all political
measures are vested by law in the public servants of
the state. The commerce and the patronage of the com-
pany are alone excepted ; points of which I shall presently
speak ; but on all other matters which any way concern the
public interests in India, it is the office and the duty of the
King's commissioners, at their discretion, to exercise a com-
plete and unqualified political control. It is their function
to erase, to add, to alter, and, in the default of the direc-
tors, to originate those instructions, which, by law, the
public servants in India are bound implicitly to obey."
That seems to me to describe the same state of things now
as existed in 1813. The President of the Board of Control
appears to be the authority represented by the commis-
goners, but, with that exception, I am responsible to Par-
livanent for the affairs of India. Every. person who is
acquainted with the course of public matters must know,
that although the head of every department is answerable
and responsible for the whole business of that department,
yet that in great matters he would consult his colleagues
in the. Ministry ; that in other matters his decision, as
chief of his own department, would be sufficient ; and that
in minor matters, having confidence in the persons in his
department and under his authority, he, upon their repre-
sentation, issues the orders that may be necessary. But
there is a difference between the orders so issued by the
Secretary of State and those which may proceed from the
Board, of Control*. Before any dispatches aro sanctioned
by the Board of Control they have been carefully sifted
and investigated by a body of independent gentlemen,
many of them intimately acquainted with the people of
India, and most zealous and um-emitting in the transaction
of business. Now, it must be obvious to every one that
the power of originating dispatches must of itself give no
inconsiderable share of influence to that body. It is clear,
that if I could not issue dispatches except upon matters
raised and communications issued by any hon. member of
this house, he would have no inconsiderable influence in
the decision, whatever that decision might ultimately be.
(Hoar, hear.) Mr. Mill—than whom there could not be
a more competent witness—said, before the committee
of the House of Lords,- I do not think the present
system is fairly described as a fiction, since it is acknow-
ledged, that not only the Board of Control but the
Cabinet, when of a different opinion, sometimes think
it right to defer to the opinion of the Court of Directors ;
no doubt because they feel that the directors are more
competent to form an opinion than themselves." On this
statement I would remark that there can be no question
—first, as to the responsibility to this house ; and next,
that the functions of the Court of Directors are not that
, absolute fiction which they are represented by some to be.
I Mr. Mill said, it was not true that the power of the Court
of Directors was a fiction. I do not believe that to be
the case myself ; and it is desirable, before we deal with
this question, that we should be in possession of the actual
circumstances of the case. The last imputation against the
Court of Directors that I shall notice is, that in conse-
quence of the communications which take place, and what
I may call the divided residence of the two authorities—
the Court of Directors and the Board of Control—lndian
business is slowly transacted. I admit that the tendency
of the mode of transacting business is that it is slow ; but
as to a large portion of Indian business dispatch is not of
the slightest importance. The principles upon which the
government of India is and ought to he conducted are laid
down here, but the government of India is and ought to be
administered in India. (Cheers.) Good men ought to be
carefully selected to carry out the orders of the Executive.
But then, when that is done, the more that is done in India
the better—(hear, hear)—and the object is, that whatever
may be the exercise of the power of the Goyernor-General
in detail, those principles so laid down in this country shall
be observed. The greater part of the business consists in
revising the acts of the Indian authorities, but that is not
business that requires much dispatch. Perhaps I should
not be far wrong in saying that nine-tenths of the Indian
business is to revise and to see whether the administration
of India is carried on consistently with the principles laid
down. There are cases, no doubt, and sometimes very dif-
ficult ones. when most important matters arise which re-
quire a more rapid transaction of business. In cases of
that kind communications take place between the Board
of Control and what are called the " Chairs" of the East
India Company. lam happy to take this opportunity of
stating that my hon. friend the late chairman and the pre-
sent chairman and deputy-chairman of the East India
Company have always been most ready and willing to meet
me, and have afforded me every facility and assistance that
I could possibly require. Whenever it was important to
obtain an early decision they would ask to see me, or I
would send for them. A personal communication took
place without delay, and a dispatch was sent out imme-
diately. A month ago I thought it desirable that the Five ,
per Cent. Loan should be paid off, in 9rder that the interest
might be reduced. A dispatch was prepared.by the Court
of Directors and submitted to me, and by the next mail a
dispatch went out to reduce the interest of the loan. The
Finance Department reported a probable surplus of
500,0001., after paying for the Burmese war. I thought
this an opportunity not to be lost of diminishing the ex-
penditure by making a reduction in_ the rate of interest ;

,1.. ,

and, by the concurrence of the directors, no time was lost
in-sending that dispatch out. In another case, when the
electric telegraph was determined upon, all the ar-
rangements were made in less than one month after the
receipt of the dispatch of the Governor-General, recom-
mending that this step should be taken. With a mail to
India once a-fortnight, and with personal communications
such as I have described, there is not the least delay in
anything that requires speed. But one great defect has
been pointed out—namely, that, owing to a protracted and
expensive canvas, the best members of the Indian service
are not appointed directors of the East India Company. It
is said that it is a bad mode of remunerating the services
of the board of directors that they should look only to the
distribution of patronage for their reward. Ido not think
that the imputations which have been made on this sub-
ject are fairly borne out. It has been said that the Indian
army and service do not receive a fair proportion of the
patronage. I think the directors have taken great pains
to preserve their patronage from improper accusations, but
I admit there exists a general opinion that it is undesir-
able that the remuneration of the board of directors
should consist in their patronage. I have now stated the
-principal objections that have been made to the present
mode of conducting the Indian Government, and how far,
in my opinion, those complaints are justified. But I still
have to consider. what it is desirable the government of
India should be for the future. The hon. member for
Manchester said the other day at a meeting at Bristol on
the subject of India that nothing could be satisfactory ex-
cept a single government by means of a Secretary of State.
That also is the view of the gentlemen who have associated
themselves together for the reform of the Indian government.
Now, we must consider what would be the effect of a change
of this description. The proprietors of India Stock and
the court of directors will remain a body until 1874, and
they will be entitled to receive their dividends secured
upon the territory of India, and to claim the whole value
of their stock at its present quotation. At the end of that
term they would claim to revive as a commercial body,
and to carry on their trade with the capital thus reim-
bursed. The Government, on the other hand, would as-
sume the charge and government of India, and the obliga-
tions, liabilities, and debts/of the East India Company, and
I am not sure whether my right hon. friend the Chancellor
of the Exchequer would be pleased to have that debt added
to his present obligations, because although it is true it is
secured on the Indian territory, yet it might be convenient
that that should be done for India which we have done for
some of our colonies, and that by giving the guarantee of
the Government a lower rate of interest should be charged
on the debt. But although in the present state of affairs
it might not be precisely just that such a guarantee could
be given, I am not so sure that we could thus answer the
claim of the present company. Still Ido not believe that
this is an insuperable objection, but it is one that requires
to be carefully considered. With regard to the nature of
the future government of India, we ought to look to the
evidence that has been given before us on this subject. The
question whether we ought to have a single or double
Government for India has been mooted before both the
committee of the House of Lords and the committee of the
House of Commons. There are three witnesses whose evi-
dence has been said to be more or less in favour of the
--single Government. The evidence of the last witness ex-
amined upon this subject (Mr. Sullivan) is not yet in the
'hinds of members of this house; but I believe it will be
found to be not in favour of a single Government, because
Mr. Sullivan leaves two bodies— one for patronage and the
other for territory. However, as his evidence is not in
the hands of members, I will not enlarge upon it. The
most important evidence on this subject is that of noble
lord (the Earl of Ellenborough), who has been himself
President of the Board of Control and Governor-General
of India, and I am bound to bear my testimony not only
to his great acquaintance with Indian affairs, but to the
singular ability with which he expresses his views on these
subjects. Ido not know that I shall be charged with
having said more than I am justified in saying if I add
that one need not be surprised to find the noble lord ap-
proaching the question of the Court of Directors with
some little bias. (Cheers and laughter.) The noble lord
recommends that the Government of India should be as
follows :—That there should be a council of 12, who should
be originally named in the act of Parliament ; that one-
sixth should go out every year, and that they should be
replaced by persons who have filled high situations in
India, and who should be nominated on the recommenda-
tion of the Governor-General and of the Governors of the
Presidencies of India. The noble lord proposes that the
whole patronage should be vested in the council, and that
they should have a veto on the appointment of the Go-
vernor-General, but the noble earl did not propose to give
them the power of recal. (Laughter.) I remember ithe
time when the patronage of India was supposed to create
a power in the State of no inconsiderable amount, and a
body like that which the noble earl suggests, and who
would be practically irremoveable for six years, would
constitute an exceedingly independent and powerful body.
But, although the noble lord's object is to get rid of the
double Government, yet he does not do so, because he
proposes to transfer to the Council the power of the direc-
tors, and to make them the advisers of the Board of Control
precisely as the Board of Directors now are. Bat the
noble lord goes further, and says that his object is to pro-
vide the President of the Board of Control with an ..ble
body of advisers. The noble lord stated that he should
not object to the continuance of the present Board of Di-
rectors if he were sure that it would be filled with men
like the late Mr. C. Grant, Mr. Elphinstone, ans: Sir
Richard Jenkins. If that were solely the object of the
noble lord, no doubt he would obtain good advisers from
Indian servants, but when he makes them responsible ad-
visers to the head of the Board of Control, this seems to
me to be a double Government under another name. The
noble earl says, when he wanted advice about Nagpoor, he
went to Sir R. Jenkins, one of the directors, who had been
resident at Nagpoor, and that, fortified by his opinion, he
came to a conclusion without consulting the Board of
Directors. I should have thought it right, even if I had
consulted Sir R. Jenkins, to consult the directors also, and
I should not have thought myself justified in treating the
Court of Directors quite so cavalierly as the noble earl said
that he had done. The next gentleman examined, whose
opinion was said to be in favour of the single Government,
and who gave most valuable evidence, was Mr. Halliday,
secretary to the Government of India at Calcutta ; but
when Mr. Halliday was examined on the English part of
the question, he stated that he was not so well acquainted
with the Government of India that he could give his
opinion without some diffidence. Well, but what was
Mr. Halliday's opinion, which was said to be a decided
opinion in favour of a single Government ? He was favour-
able to the appointment of a body of twenty-four gentle-
men, elected as at present and as vacancies occurred, allow-
ing a portion to be nominated—say one-third or one-fourth,
as the case might be—by the directors themselves. This
body would form a council of India, and would discuss all
important matters connected with India with the President
of the Board of Control, that he might have the advantage
of hearing their discussions and weighing their arguments.
I believe that many matters are carried on in India under
the single responsibility either of the governors or the
judges, or those who manage the affairs of their districts
without consulting any person. But gentlemen who are
conversant with the deliberations of committees in the
House of Commons, and those who are acquainted with the
proceedings of Cabinet Councils, can imagine what would
be the result with 24 gentlemen thus elected. Even when
they agreed their numbers would be such as to throw an
impediment in the way of all business whatever. They
would be found to be as permanent and as independent a
body as the present Board of Directors. The President
would have the power of overruling their decisions, and the
result would be, that when they differed he would decide,
after hearing their arguments, just as if he had never heard
them. If it happened that they were-overrulled once or
twice, I appeal to every peison acquainted with what takes
place before committees, whether this mode of governnient
would be satisfactory. If the President of Board of
Control were bound to attend their deliberations it would
be a practical hindrance, and would stop the progress of
business ; and if he were not he would &Ode without them.
But in any case to talk of this as a Single government is an
abuse of words. And Mr. Halliday, .tylien he was asked
whether he was favourable to a single government for India.
and on a question put by the chairman of the committee,
said that he aimed at improving the mode of transacting
business without introducing organic changes, which were
not desirable. Mr. Halliday said—" The plain, straight-
forward course would be decidedly to have the Govern-
ment and the Council nominate 4 altogether by the Crown ;
but whenever I have spoken of that With well-informed
persons I have been informed, in a manner that I could not
possibly resist with my want of experience, that such a
measure was totally out of the question ; that it was quite
impossible ; and therefore, driven from that, I fall back
upon what appears to me to be the more practicable sug-
gestion, which I have made in the course of my evidence
to-day." The witness states distinctly what he thinks of
the proposal to establish a single government, and he says
he has been told by every well-informed person with whom
he has spoken on the subject, that such a measure is totally
out of the question. Surely after that he can hardly be
represented as a witness who advocates the establishment
of a single system of government. Now, these are wit-
nesses whose evidence is supposed to be in favour of a single
mode of government. I am aware that we have in this
house advocates of that form of government, and I have no
doubt we shall hear from the hon. membei for Man-
chester and others able and powerful arguments in favour
of such a scheme, but certainly, they cannot claim in sup-
port of their views the evidence of those gentlemen to
whom I have just referred. (Hear.) But we have, on the
other hand, the very able evidence of a person well known
to this house, and well known to the world, as one of the
ablest writers of the day on subjects connected with ques-
tions like the present—l mean Mr. J. Mill. No doubt
Mr. Mill is open to the objection of having a bias in favour
of the East India Company, in whose service he is. (Hear,
hear.) But, on the other hand, from his intimate ac-
quaintance with the mode of transacting business in con-
nexion with the affairs of India, which is greater, per-
haps, than that of any man in this house or the country,
his evidence is of great weight, and I will say from what I
know of him, and from the high character which ho holds
in the country, that I do not believe Mr. Mill is one who
would express an opinion which he does not honestly hold.
(Hear, hear.) I think, therefore, that the opinion—and it
is not an opinion that is not grounded in reason—which he
has given in his evidence, is entitled to no inconsiderable
weight. (Hear, hear.) Though, therefore, the answers
are rather longer than I would wish to read, yet they are
so well put, and so much to the purpose, that I should be
sorry to diminish the effect of them by not giving his own
words. Let me, before quoting this evidence, observe that
it is obvious, if the Government is to be vested in a Secre-
tary of State, that that Secretary of State must be respon-
sible to Parliament, and to Parliament alone—that, in
short, it is to Parliament alone that the whole Government
of India must be responsible for the good administration
of the affairs of that country. On this subject Mr. Mill
says—" No one will deny that it is necessary that Parlia-
ment should be open to appeals on all subjects connected
with the government of any part of the British empire ;
but, so far as my experience goes, I should say that
the security for the good government of India derived
from discussions in Parliament is far short of that
derived from the habitual examination of all papers
of any importance by persons especially devoted to
that object. I think that many bad and few good
consequences would result. The public opinion of one
country is scarcely any security for the good government
of another. The people of one country, whether re-
presented by the public: authorities of this country
or by the nation itself, cannot have the same acquaintance
with the circumstances and interests of the other country
as they may have with their own. The great security for
the good government of any country is an enlightened
public opinion ; but an unenlightened public opinion is no
security for good government. The people of England are
unacquainted, or very ill acquainted, with the people and
the circumstances of India, and feel so little interest in
them, that I apprehend the influence of public opinion
this country on the government of Icjia is of very
value, because there are very few cases in whichso!)uitblii:
opinion is called into exercise, and when is
Euro-
peans connected with India, rather than from dto the
usually from impulses derived from the
finterestsmitthe omfteEreureto;
with regar ,
of the people of India itself."
effect of this kind of government
greatinclnhlev '
" There would be two • • ereu
cases there would be apathy and in generally,
oulnthoerstar4
erally, he says :

Stato for
Parliament and the public ; the Secretary ofu ant
India would be able to do exactly as he liked, a:, ti'eoot
any part of his duty if he were too indolent or to Igf,ost
to perform it but whenever it did happen thate 1n„,,t1
was excited in Indian questions, they would be
.ow_vAriiooe
questions ; and India would be made a subject! r
t a ebssgl
Bien, of which the real object would be to effbc,e.The
in the administration of the Government of Enolaseu_iteot
objection, therefore, that Mr. Mill takes to the go
,11),„.
of a single Secretary of State is- first, that it writ:I'll:0 Aeatal
duce party consideratiOns into the administratioiatioo
and, secondly, that in the present state of alu°l'oWhose
with regard to India, the experience of r.
lives have been devoted to Indian subj
city for gcod government then the House of U ,Lift
ece
serving, of course, to the House of Commons tot' /gee%)
nary interference which it has upon all questionsc.okovio
Now, it is a remarkable circumstance in conr.le_tdecide4,
this question, that since the celebrated bill vrl,loll_',.' 000
the fate of Mr. Pitt, party politics have sela party
into the consideration of Indian affairs. (Heard
total'
questions with reference to India are almost tor se'
known either in the other House of Parlianiert,r of iN
acts islobnltitrnsoetr
and I do not hesitate to say that it would be faatr_de tot
minent danger to India if its affairs were again we leent
objects of party warfare. (Hear, hear.) I ha.v, otters
Parliament long enough to see that in colonies! col
questions have occurred in which the interests
.Ls. hose.
have been neglected for the party politics of tossr,„iall
(Hear, hear.) I feel bound to say that the case, t_ :11
in no respect similar to that of the colonies. -I:portisui,
colonies belonging to this country there is a 131:71ciples
of British subjects well acquainted with the Pri., r,
representative government ; and even if the worst to F
occur—if, which God forbid, those colonies
net
separated from the mother country—though I bee,
why their connexion should not be for their niutua.sorill
—but even if a separation were to take place, there 1 OA,
one of our colonies that could not govern its 11,_,Ic'e p 10:
hear.) But were a revolution of that kind to,ifeteosl°
in India, will any one say that consequences xnast_e., Them
at which humanity would shudder ? (Hear, llea!,,ithespnt
is, in truth, no similarity between the effects twice pot
case and in the other, and therefore it is of iinforliont,,,
to allow party politics to interfere with the got,eryfe"
that great dependency. (Hear, hear.) There are
_d
gentlemen in this house who have been in India, atso!r_
here that even residence in one part of India is II epiol°l_
sufficient to enable a person to form a compotea
haws
heor'
with regard to other parts of India. (Hear.) I haws Ind`'
an hon. friend who sits behind me, and who kne_fadlis:
better than most men, state that what he hag, Laj;eetba4
been learned chiefly at the India-house. 1- "".„
those who have been long connected with the 1110:ir ol,"0
have a better knowledge of Indian affairs than to t'
possess, and therefore I think there is some 0'40.0.:
opinion of Mr. Mill, that it is a security for ge.°7:t'otioes,
meat that all the details of the Indian adra,l!refliehe
should be subjected to the careful revision and e 5 ato 11
astmuidnyatoifonaoafiaptelomplaettwohrso,
ahnadveth44:,ltevtohteeyd their
over by those who have spent a portionsh:futleElatii
India, who, collectively, have a greater know! bate
subject, and whose opinion.,.. therefore, should -‘61356,
greatest weight. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Mill says 't-;tetti
all Indian proceedings are reviewed by two sePsil seeitrir
independent of one another is a much greater Al c
for good government than would exist
tem by which those two bodies were merged los,
The double revision by persons of a different c
under
inte os
different position, and probably with different Pr ins
sions, tends greatly to promote a close and with t
tion." Again,—" If you have a body unconnecte DeS..4
general government of the country, and contaibsihe offn
persons who have made that department of Pu' coaPo
the business of their lives, as is the case with the hbet,
Directors, there is much better discussion andlnn,,c,e,,
sifting of the matters committed to their cha1173,"619-0,
such a body, in addition to the Minister of ?het sos'of
than by having the Minister of the Crown withiteisilis
body, or the Minister of the Crown acting as c'-„stiol'' s
the body." So far for the evidence upon this (Isc,'", frolg
which a distinct opinion is given that any eltailloaeby
system like the present would necessarily be a
the worse. I would now refer to the opinion 0104
lord who himself was a cabinet minister in this
and subsequently Governor-General of India--1-1:°-
Hardinge ; and I must say no one is better able to
opinion than Lord Hardinge, who was a cabinetrecollA
at the time of the differences which led to the.il,l,,
Lord Ellenborough, and who, as Governor-Gti sV:t
made well acquainted with the administration ",,tslo,,s
both in India and in this country, and who now " 0,0,1
a position perfectly independent, and is able to ego o
unbiassed and impartial opinion. His opini°l34
think the system of double government is much lgi
bringing the crown more prominently forward. iol6l
"f
the present plan is the best. For two members e's t
the Court of Proprietors, one director might be 1)1,0oli,°4
the court itself, taken? from the Indian serums,
eti o hl
been a member of the council, or who had Pin o'o
reputation for his service in India. I do In+ "vitecto
would be advantageous to have the Court of
filled with men who had served in India; therei4
be in the court such a fusion of European fee,',,ohl;{
talent, as well as Indian feelings and talent, as .input
make it too Indian. A body of persons solely 11,eioob
with Indian views would not administer the '404
of India so well as the present Court of os
(Hear, hear.) I will quote another author/o'l"ei
subject, and that is the opinion of Mr. 3611.8 of
gentleman well acquainted with the feelings chsll/do
people of India, and he says :- " I think that serve ,
such as the transfer of the whole of the,. °'
of India from the Court of Directors to tnei o'0",1
would be• much too violent and sudden, sachlo'ie
tend very much to embarrass so vast S r°,sTiosiat,
that of the Government of India ; and I think i' ttst
more advisable to prepare for the change which Mit
place by gradually remodelling the Governmenk.
be possible to prepare for that great change by te"tte',„lr
tion of a certain proportion of the directors, s° etisl'ot
public would have anopportunity of seeing interc't„littitii.
how the newly-modelled machine worked. One7si
together
t :env
egaedttdnenete,
%nsheno,
oxetneemuhrpee
a-eiwoatntr one-third
stirnhuni dfrocsanehioen.
fs:torTteooandrpmrleediwvnwdaof iimiotfrinlec
ooac,
onti
itnhnago,
tnlerhyr
os
himself
mrmiffm:
those, a
ispfieiesrrglrof:th,vvhahoteienfondbbtoheechol
saodaantvutpeferp Indianhry
iooor
“i st
of s o.f:oot
stg;;0:1
ment for India. I have now stated the evidence,: olifid
been given on this subject. I must say I think it "0004'4
that one.of the objections stated by Mr. Mill, Yisl4 i 5
of information in this country on Indian subjlrooilli
that, with increased communication between th,'s to
and India, may he expected to diminish from dap a
Mr. Marshman expresses his surpriswat the interc-c6
the affairs of India have excitedlin this country,,"':ct
be allowed to express the hope that it is a BUT:11191)V
will excite a still larger share of the attention 0.t." aeosio
and of the country. If by the improvement an
of the natives of India we can establish a race At best
of men such as Mr. Mill describes as affording t"'
Jut IS
cnrity for good government, then a great f°,,. ins tios
'gained for the government of India. I think tae
."0100.10
is passing over our heads, and in whichlthe cont . wor
with India is increasing so rapidly from day t°
diffuse a knowledge of the affairs of India much To t
rally among the members of this house, andretelltol''
more and more able to attend to the affairs of the
an lipid
I find that notice has been given of a motion i.."JitirPthe
friend of mine to-night, upon a subject in whic"goo °a tilt
intention to have made an amendment to the hi° et of iv
part of the Government, viz., that the Pre,.si,nueeet.°fl'ia
Board of Control shall make an annual state'''. 410'4
finances of India to the house—an exceedintgis odtor,
thing, and one in regard to which, I may sat/ (gilt
fault that the house has been kept uninforme t 0,9
hear.) The question, then, for the Governail jolt
is, whether it shall continue the government 01 oon
is—whether it shall assume the government It fero),.
itself—or whether it shall maintain the coreliOeilr,
government, but improve its constitution. (gel'
the defects that have been stated in the consl"-oersl,
Court of Directors, it is impossible to leave thegoer tithe
of India as it is. (Cheers.) I think, on the „%itt°„cos"
that if I had been anxious to put myself in, is rtli'0111I1J.;
most powerful that any minister could 1101",ei, eta tire'
trolled possession, as Secretary of State for Loup" tbsita es"
patronage that might have accrued to the °Tie-be bAc'es3;
certainly a prize the most tempting that cou,''," for "„orl
to any man. But we do not think it would. 'lvor,
vantage of India that that should be done. , the ttio
We think it far better and safer to Maihtail',„6ol,',.o,,,
form of government, and to improve its consul; fitt',ll.,,
a manner that while it will be rendered a 1n°..0 affa',ebir,
strument for the good administration of Int that for
some respects it will render it more easy to .eet of
an extension of the information on the 811/9,be 6°i. the
may render fitting- viz., the assumption of
ii'o,,ero
ment of India in the name and under tthoedo
Crown. (Hear, hear.) What we proposeA court of f PII)
the relations of the Board of Control an-„Aitieo
tors as they stand—leaving the resnons.'" tioa W oboe
house and of the Minister who holds the Situeeeati os
now have the honour to do—to improve
('DII/
of the Court of Directors, limiting their
entg,
imposing some check on the higher appointT„,etebethoss.
th'irollagalteo
hear.) The Court of Directors consists of 3° "'and icy
24 only sit, six of whom go out by rotation4re poet,
they are subject to an annual election, they aleetire_plit
elected for life. We propose to reduce the _el „enenlis,
hers to 12, and to add to them six names fro°"0:`00110. 50110
have been Indian servants appointed by Tenet Oleo-0,1,1i
will make 18. It was suggested that the tit ,ipe
should select one-fourth ofthe nuniter ; bn..t
us that they would be placed in a dePand_eT th°"srbillYt
those by whom they were appointed, all% reeposts,o4
better that they should be nominated on "lie lealst
of the Crown, and named from persons viro_ the acio, tiso
least 10 years in the service of the obt evs„
Company in India. (Hear, hear.) That du
objection that the best of the Indian scrvl.n.'has be:l),ot
obtain a seat in the Court of Directors. 11 ire t
nt to oeilo jijto
beyond doubt that those most compea to
the government of India—coming honlerurl, of 4 ti!
and able to take a part in the adininista.
—are deterred by the canvass from t
ou
shall iinl,_reo‘sece
Court of Directors, and we believe 7
__itbout tejeser,s
efficiency of the court by pl,cing arsons " :hail 0104,,,
tsiiotyn.of(gHoienagrlhrwongehpraopcoasnevtahssa, P:
withoxup ..4eneedoetlit
should vacate every second 3Trtl.7unt
_-tcnitbrbdeeeliingt-ltb.b,,cll:4llire,cotli°l
able of being nominated again
year. Great inconvenience is nowtoe e"
be in the cfroct
tervening year, and if they are fit
should ft
~repe
there is no reason why that interval
wo de nottironef be
With regard to the elected members,of the ea°B °i de,
make any change in the nature of
propee!rucheineat
whom they are elected.
We
do
holders of East te lace
suggested by some, to add the ho meet uy. alelohe
because in that case people in India
do SO bY, Pr°ii` thesethote
who, if they vote at all,
can only
suggestect, lereas. oela
shall we add, as has also been.
ev
uro se nuind
we secero,
have served in India, because th
b if Iva d die° °l%ect'
as stated in Lord Campbell s boo „ of in
0. ipaiiiil;
throw the whole election into the
,natl;
shoo
dot
iwt
and should not, therefore, give that
vantage could be derived fromn die 5 f
election 1)_. thst flag
to other parties to which they
the persons entitled to vote
iteration of
this e:fore
to make no a bole oi .o rh
I propose, therefore,
ffect the NY that I,,feet°,3
We do not contemplate to e
first instance, t3O 130'
from all I can gather upon theasruenbreetcaittilothgtttbal:
licite,erswa:rov`:o,l,
at once. We propose in the
that the presen,..oo,o savee
ears in.rectors °Vies
select 3 persons who have servedthe first di- went. Oa
will make the 18, who will be
nu_ arroge by,
00,
stlihoeulexdpsie.aletcitonnofofthtehochirartneurn,lb_
East India Company under the be 004 rrof b ore
the first 3 vacancies that occur win, nwebe
o_.,
nomination of the Crown until thej.iuo'nee aont7eieetio.iii
,ninee members is completed. Tha",, be fillede7ibersA 041
vacancies in the elected directors ru ain
eminat°- electe;e4
and all future vacancies in the keep up
0' tinitird of
be supplied by nomination, so as tl'tre years, ene-tll oteiis
nominated members. (Hear.),
of 6 rev, 0000.400.
director should serve for a period a th°9Bbio of;a4poPi
erioaynd tho
the court, both of those elected being cal:01110e
going out every seventh year, h "'
tion or re-nomination, as the ease Jo

,

• •••
',.te',41:4;,-;711;'. 7