The Sun.
London, England, 1854-04-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(THIS DAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock.
NEW MEMBER.
Lord ADOLPHUS VANE took the oaths and his seat for
North Durham, in the room of his brother, LordSeaham,
called to the Upper House.
MIDDLESEX INDUSTRIAL SCHOOL BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of this
bill,
Lord R. GROSVENOR moved the second reading of
the bill, and stated that it had received the cordial sup-
port of the noble lord at the head of the Home Depart- 3
went.
Lord D. STUART opposed the bill on the ground that `
ratepayers of Middlesex could have no control over the
school. The real object of the bill was to increase the
power of the Middlesex magistrates and the Bishop of
-London, and since the ratepayers had no voice whatever
in the election of these functionaries it was unfair to
call upon theta to contribute the funds required for the
bill. The subject of Reformatory Schools was a most
important one, not only to Middlesex, but to the whole
country, and it ought to be dealt with in a general and
not a local bill. He therefore moved that the bill be
read a second time this day six months.
Mr. LUCAS seconded the amendment, on the special
ground that the bill made no sufficient provision for the
religious instruction of Roman Catholic children. The
42d clause was framed as if ail the children who were t
to enter this school would belong to the Protestant re
ligion ; but he contended, and he believed, the moble
lord at the head of the Home-office agreed with him,
that prisoner's of all descriptions should be called '
upon to declare his religion on entering the prison ;
and, as a matter of right, he should be entitled to the
instruction of a chaplain of his own faith. Now, the
same rule should apply to these reformatory schools,
'Which were intended for the reformation of juvenile
criminals.

Mr. BUTT thought the remarks of the hon. gentle-
Man the member for Meath applied rather to the details
than the principle of the bill. Now, the principle
of the bill was sound and good, and he hoped the house
would sanction the second reading, and send the details
to be arranged by a select committee.
Mr. DIGBY SEYMOUR concurred in the view taken
of this bill by the noble lord the member for Marylebone,
and pointed out that, by the 44th clause, the expense
of each child entering this school should be borne by
the parish which was the child's last known settlement.
Now there was a measure before the house for abolish-
ing the law of settlement altogether and, therefore, if
that bill passed, the entire expense of the school would
fall Upon the ratepayers of Middlesex.
Mr. ADDERLEY objected to entering upon petty
details when a great principle was a stake, which
....vfas the case of this bill. It simply enunciated
i'ne Principle that it was wrong to deal with ju-
venile offenders in the same manner as adult crimi-
nals, and no honourable member could object to that
Who had the interest of the country at heart. A simi-
lar measure had been passed for Edinburgh, and it was
too late now to complain that the principle ought to be
dealt with in a general and not a merely local measure.
Ile sympathised with the principle of local self-govern-
/tient, but he contended that this bill in no way
infringed upon that principle, though it certainly did
interfere with the principle of representation. It was to
be regretted that: a general measure as the subject of
reformatory schools had not been brought in by the
Government as they promised to do ; but the mere fact
of the absence of such a general measure was no suffi-
cient reason for rejecting this bill.
Mr. HUME was decidedly favourable to the principle
of reformatory schools ; but he objected to its being
dealt with in a private bill like this, which was being
discussed in absence of all the Ministers. The principle
11°uld be disposed of in a general measure applicable to
"ue Whole country, and after the demonstrations and
promises which had been made on this subject, it was
the bounden duty of the Government to apply a geaeral
lettiedy to the universal evil of juvenile criminality. He
had no objection to the second reading of this bill as
af6iming the principle it contained, but he was most
certainly opposed to its machinery and details.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL suggested that the standing
orders committee should in future have power to reprt
to the house that, measures involving a great and gene-
ral principle like this should be treated as a public bill,
and placed amongst the orders of the day. He also
took the same objection to the 42d clause as the hon.
Member for Meath.
Mr. MIALL announced his intention to support the
ainendment, and on this ground. This bill would affect,
at least, a third
of the whole juvenile criminals of the
country, and he insisted that, on this account, it in-
'olved a principle of too much importance to be dis-
l°sed of in a private bill after an hour's discussion. He
Id not oppose the principle involved in the establish-
ment 'of reformatory schools, but he required some addi-
tional information before it was adopted. It was pro-
Posed to found reformatory schools for the education of
Young criminals, and it might prove a source of tempta-
tion for poor meii to send their children 'on the streets.
Mr. ROEBUCIK was at a loss to understand what
the objection v.'as to this bill. It was said that
the principle involved in the bill could not be
sufficiently discussed now. Why, according to
his experience, many private bills gave rise to more
discussion than toublic measures ; but an objection had
been raised to th;3 42d clause, and this recalled to his
mind the fact that the subject of education was never
brought before the house without its involving some
question of religion. Why, if the Roman Catholics
were entitled to a separate chaplain for their own
use, should not the Mormonites claim the same con-
cession ? The fuct was, whenever a good bill of this
nature was brought forward there invariably arose a
rnggle for pow er amongst the Protestants, the Roman
atholics, and the Dissenters, but such cavilling should
not deter the house from passing this bill. The principle
and object were good, and since both well deserved the
benediction of tsociety, there was no necessity to wait
for the attendance of a minister before the second reading
Vas adopted.
thpMr• HENLEY had also heard no so-and objection to
I.cr oc-t,lPnag a
passing of the bill. Its principle was just, and it
Ind not be too speedily adopted. Instead of its af-
third of the whole juvenile crime of the coun-
teuyeit would not deal with more than a tenth, and
Surely that was not too much to be disposed of in a
,olvtiate bill. With reference to the general question, no
bt it was desirable to have a measure applying to the
framing such a general measure which did not apply
ree,eq.and he called upon the house to reject the amend-

b,e 'ix G. GREY said the only objection which had
ilh urged against this bill that had any force with
biz?. was, that it was a private and not a public bill,
I;lthat was not a sufficient reason to induce him to
1)P"e the second reading. There were provisions
d• the bill which were far too important to be .
hePosed of by an ordinary select committee, and
constituted, Suggest that a select committee should be
I,ecially for the purpose of arranging its
details, sr that be recommitted in a committee of
sel
'le whole house after it had passed through the ordinary
ect committee upstairs.
T.Tr,
ject
• —'-o,DELL argued that as there was no prospect
:ufba: getieral public measure being introduced on the
bay ry coo ,
of Reformato S h ls the house ought to
°f Middlesex.e diffie u ty in passing this bill for the county
After a few more words from Sir W. CLAY, who also
the
8 bill
e
d
the bill, the amendment was withdrawn and
was read a second time.
PETITIONS.
lar th„ 0 ge num
"ner of
petitions
were presented against
pening of public-houses on Sundays.
against O'BRIEN. presented a petition from Cashel'
the app, intment of the Convents Committee.
Dl‘lr. TRORNLEY presented a petition from the
issenters of Wolverhampton in favour of the opening
the Universities to persons of all denominations.
fro ir J. WA.LAISLEY presented a similar petition
n Boston.l\lr HUME presented a similar petition from
Deptford.
Colonel BLAIR presented a petition against the
Education (Scotland) Bill, from a place in Scotland.
Lord DUDLEY STUART presented a petition from
the Marylebone Vestry in favour of a general measure
for the establishment of reformatory schools.
Mr. EwAnuo presented petitions from Birmingham,
Manchester, and other places, in favour of the Public
Libraries and Museums Bill.
Mr. HORSF'ALL presented a similar petition from
Liverpool.
PLILLIC LIBRARIES AND MUSEUMS BILL.
On the order of the day for the secondof
the bill,reading
Mr. EWART rose and was
(LEFT SPEAKING.)