The Sun.
London, England, 1838-06-08 00:00:00

POSTAGE.

Lord ASHBURTON presented petitions from Glasgow
and Carlisle, praying for amendments in the management of
the postage.
NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND).
Earl WICKLOW presented a petition against the national
education system in Ireland.
NEGRO SLAVERY.
The Bishop of NORWICH presented petitions against
negro slavery from many places, among others, from Newport
Pagnell, and Melton-Mowbray.
Lord SE AGRA VE presented a petition to the same effect.
Earl MINTO begged to ask the Noble and Learned
Lord (Brougham), what he intended to do with respect
to the lengthened returns which had been presented on the
subject of the slave trade on the coast of Africa?
Lord BROUGHAM said he had as yet had no time to
examine those returns; till he had done so, he could hardly
-say what steps he should take.
CRIMINAL LAW. -

Earl DE VON gave notice that he would to-morrow draw the
attention of their Lordships to the Third Report of the Cri-
minal Law Commissioners, and move for a Select Committee
on the subject.

IRISH POOR LAW.
On the Order of the Day for going into Committee on this
Bill,

Lord FITZGERALD and VESCI rose to state various
amendments which he intended to propose, in order that the
same might be printed. The first amendment was one which
in point of fact had already been adopted in substance, for he
considered the decision the other night as decisive of his pro.
position for limiting the relief. Immediately after clause 41
he should propose the insertion of a clause the object of which
was to give the guardians the power of apprenticing orphans
and deserted children. The next object to which he wished
to allude was that of the medical charities of Ireland. Their
number and extent he had stated on a former evening ; they
amounted to 600, a►►d the extent of relief afforded was very
great. It had been intended by the Bill as it was originally
►ntroduced into the House of Commons that the whole esta-
blishment of medical charities, such as fever hospitals, county
infirmaries, and dispensaries, should be under the controul of
the Commissioners. He regretted the alteration since made
in the Bill. The clause which he should propose would
have the effect of imposing upon the Commissioners the
necessity of inquiring into the state of the institutions for me-
dical relief, and of reporting to the Government upon the
subject; and he proposed that because he believed that when
they had carried a measure imposing a compulsory assessment
for the relief of the poor it was greatly to be apprehended
that a portion of these dispensaries might be interrupted.—
( Hear, hear.) He understood that there was Bill in the
other House of Parliament which was intended to provide for
the inspection of all the medical charities of Ireland. He did

not inten I to pronounce any opinion upon that Bill ; but, if it
had been found necessary to adopt some particular legislative
measure on the subject of those charities, he might say that
it afforded some ground for the introduction of the clause
which he proposed. The Noble Lord then read the clause,
which was to this effect—_" That the Commissioners, so soon
as conveniently might be alter the formation of any union,
should make, or cause to be made, inquiries into the state of
the fever hospitals, the dispensaries for the relief of the sick or
convalescent pour, or any other medical charities within
such union, in reference to the nature and extent of the re-
lief afforded by them, and to report thereon to Parliament,
setting forth in such report the number of hospitals which
ought to be provided for the relief of the sick or convalescent
poor in addition to those already established " He had intended
to have proposed another clause upon the subject of emigration.
Aft. r clause 46 he should propose the following clause. The
Noble Lord then read the claw-e, which in substance wm, that
it should be lawful for her Majesty in Council to issue orders
to the Commissioners to inquire respecting such emigration
(referrims to the former clause ja the $i11); but that, as 4

preliminary to their making any order on the subject, the as.
sent of the poor persons recommended by the Guardians must
be obtained. He was aware that the same information might
be obtained from the Commissioners, but he thought it ad-
vantageous to engraft such a clause upon this Bill. As to
the 69th clause, which exempted tenants under 5/. from a
portion of the assessment, he was perfectly aware of the grounds
on which that clause had been inserted; but it appeared to
hint that it would open the door to great abuse. The next
clause to which he wished to refer was that which au-
thorised the Commissioners to require that one of their body
should reside in Dublin, for the purpose of carrying the Bill
into effect. Now the alteration which he had made in that
clause in the llJuee of Commons al as to make it mandatory
instead of permissive. Now he knew that many persons
entertained great apprehensions of the power of the Com-
missioners; hut he must say that any opinions which he might
entertain in favour of the measure would mainly arise from the
consideration that the controul of the Commissioners ought to
be unfettered; and he should be sorry, therefore, it the it
Lordships acquiesced in the mandatory clause. He had been
many years at the head of the revenue department in Ire-
' land, and his experience led him to think that no regulation
had been more successful than the system of centralisation.
In the case of Boards the course had been in the first instance
to have resident Commissioners ; but they had subsequently
been found unnecessary, and were accordingly abolished. He
begged to press these two points on the attention of the
Noble Viscount. Before they went into Committee he
thought that one question of very great importance ought to
be asked—he alluded to the expense of the Staff of officers
connected with this establishment. There could be no doubt
th it great apprehensions prevailed as to the number of offices
which must be created under this Bill. It would be satis-
factory if the question could be answered in a manner that
would alleviate those apprehensions.
The Earl of WICKLOW dii not agree in the propriety of
detailing amendments previously to going into Committee.
Ile begged to give notice—so widely did he differ from his
Noble Friend on another point—that he should propose that,
instead of one, two Commissioners should always be resident.
Viscount MELBOURNE was sensible of the importance
of the observations of the Noble Lord opposite ( Lord Fitz-
gerald), and he perhaps did not quite disagree with him on
some points. He would not then follow the Noble Lord
through all his observations, but on one or two points he
could not asoid saying a word. With regard to the 69th
clause, which enabled tenants under five pounds to pay the
amount of assessment by deducting the whole or a portion
of their rent, it was easy to understand the reason upon
which that clause was founded. It was intended to relieve
that poor class from the tax ; but he had already stated that
he entertained considerable doubts as to the prudence and
policy of the clause ; and he still thought it liable to many
of the objections urged against it; and if it were found that
an alteration in that respect could be made in the Bill, he, for
ono, should not object to it. The Noble Lord wished them
to make the clause requiring a Commissioner to be resident in
Dublin permissive, and he had snoken of the disadvantages
of local government, and of the great advantages of concen-
tration. Now, theie was no question of that; but the neces-
sity for a local government in this case seemed to arise from
the division of the counties and the extent of territory—it
proceeded upon the reason which made the establishment of a
local government in Ireland necessary at the Union. Con-
sidering the novelty of the subject, he though it imprac-
ticable to proceed upon the centralising system. He was
perfectly aware of the apprehensions that existed as to the
number of offices which the Bill would create, and the
heavy expense which must fall on this country. But the Bill
was unquestionably one of great novelty—it was an experi-
ment ; and that it was so, was the reason for granting such ex-
tensive powers. He entertained no apprehensions on that sub-
ject, because those powers were exercised before the public,
and under the vigilant superintendence of Parliament. If any
excessive expenses were incurred it would be at once dis-
covered, and subjected to retrenchment. He was not now pre-
pared to give any precise information as to the ❑umber of
officers whom it would be necessary to appoint in order to
carry into effect the provisions of the Bill ; but he agreed in
thinking that upon a subject so new, and so untouched, before
the Bill proceeded much further, some notion on that subject
should be given, and he would, therefore, take means to sup-
ply himself with the information.
The Marquis of C LANR, ICAR DE was anxious to know
whether it was intended to introduce a Vagrancy Act to sup-
ply the place of those clauses which had been struck out of
the Bill.
Viscount MELBOURNE said that was still a question
under consideration, whether those clauses should be re-in-
serted, or a fresh Bill be introduced.
The House then went into Committee.
Lord BROUGHAM begged to call the attention of the
Noble Duke and her Majesty's Government to one of the
amendments proposed by the Noble Duke. He thought that
it had an effect very far from his intention. He alluded to the
amendment Ott the 41st clause, and he must say that he looked
upon it with great alarm. He did not know whether the Go-
vernment meant to agree to it or not; but if the Noble Duke
wished to carry it they mug adopt it—they could not help
themselves.—( A laugh.) H: believed it was admitted on all
hands that neither the able-bodied nor even the impotent
man had any claim to relief as a matter of right ; end yet his
belief was that if the amendment of the Noble Duke was
carried, although it would not. make it a matter of right, be-
cause the word discretion was employed ; still it would
leave the discretion so fettered, that the relief would be-,
come a mere matter of tours,—(Hear, hear, hear.) Now
he was either for fettering them effectually as the able-
bodied, or giving them a, large a discretion as possible.
Now, the amendment of the Noble Duke said that, Ist, the
impotent should have relief, and then the able-bodied. They
agreed that class A should enter. Was it not better then, if
they wished to exclude class B and C, to leave the matter to

the discretion of the Commiss'oner, wi h that understanding ?
But the Noble Duke said not that they were to exercise their
discretion, but, first, that they should admit class A, and then
B and C. Since the last discussien on this subject an im-
portant document had been transmitted to him from Donegal,
and it afforded a test of the candidates that they might ex-
pect fur admission to the poor-houses.—( Hear,
hear, hear.)
It was a dispensary return to the Lent Assizes of 1837. It
stated that the population was 279,000 odd. How many of
that number did their Lordships think came within the de-
scription of persons requiring from poverty dispensary relief?
No less than 63,500; and yet it was well known that there
were other parts of Ireland poorer than that. Such was the
prospect which was held out of persons besieging the doors
of the guardians. He had not intended to take any further
''Part in the discussions on this 13111 until the third reading ;
but he thought it his duty to throw out these observations.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said—My object in the
amendment which I have to propose to your Lordships is to
indicate, in the first instance, that which it is desirable the
Commissioners and Guardians should attend to. I beg the
Noble and Learned Lord's pardon, but if he had adverted to
the first words of the clause, which limit its application to the
discretion of the Guardian, he would find that they are carried
throughout the clause.---( Lord Brougham—" Yes, yes ;
said so.") The clause begins—" That it shall be lawful for
the Guardians of any Union at their discretion, subject to the
directions of the Commissioners, to take order, in the first
place fur the necessary relief therein of all such destitute poor
persons as, by reason cf old age. blindness, lameness, or other
infirmity may not be able to
work, and of destitute orphan
.
children ;" and then, in the next} lace for the able-bodied
poor.
Now, my Lords, I conceive that this clause gives no
right. whatever ; all it does is this—it points out to the Guar-
dians that those who are unable to work should be relieved
before the able-bodied. The House may perhaps be of opi-
nion that the clause does not carry its object into effect;
but it appeared to me to be the opinion of many Noble Lords
that such a preference was desirable, and I therefore thought
it advisable to propose its insertion. For my ovvn part, I
think the preference is desirable, and I know it will givel
satisfaction to a vast number of persons. Under these cir-
cumstances, my Lords, I should wish to take the sense of the
House upon the questiemif it should become necessary. •
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that this amendment
was not yet quite ripe for discussion, for it had not yet been;
proposed.
Lord CLONCURRY said that, with ragard to the return
mentioned by the Noble and Learned Lord, he wished to re-;
mark that it frequently happened that the name of a person
going to a dispensary was put down every time, and thus
the return which was male presented only an account of
the number of visits, and net of the different persons relieved.
Lord BROUGHAM—The population was here stated to be
280,000, and did the Noble Lord mean to say that he meant
100,000 counted twice and a-half over? He (Lord B.) sup-
posed that his Noble Friend's meaning was, that if a man got
a tooth drawn one day and another the next, or broke his
elbow one day and his shin the next, every accident reckoned
one in the population. But the statement he quoted had been
sent to him by a most respectable gentleman, resident in
Donegal, and was verified on oath.—( Elcar, hear.) Perhaps
19 his Noble Friend's part of Ireland the officials had the
habit of counting the people twice over, but he ( Lord
Brougham) believed that in Donegal they had not as yet
atta'ned that refinement, but preserved the old-fashioned Eng-
lish method.—( Laughter.)
Lord CLONC UR R Y raid that he felt quite convinced that
11:8 statement of the mode of computation was the correct one.
The Duke of WELLINGTON asked whether the state-
ment the Noble and Learned Lord had made referred to a
period Of twelve months?
Lord BROUGHAM said it did, and that the statement was
verified on oath.—( Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of CLANRICA RDE objected to the amend-
ment of the Noble Duke.
Lord HAT HE RTON thought that the return quoted by
his Noble and Learned Friend must have been made out in'
the manner his Noble Friend stated. They were dispensaries
in the towns of England, and surely the Noble and Learned.
Lord would not contend that every one claiming relief at such
places would also be likely to claim relief from the poor rate.
Lord ELLENBOROIJG di should support the amendment
of the Noble Duke, and also propose another amendment
prevent which,
i a conjunction
muchuseless
with
expenditure.i t,
His
would,
proposalopinion,
‘v
as to
tend to
re-
strict the Commissioners to the erection of such workhouses
as the Board of Guardians might approve of.
Th f Marquis of LANSDOWNE did not rise to oppose
the amendment of the Noble Duke, but merely to call his at-
tention to one word—the word "all." He would suggest to
the Noble Duke to substitute the words "such destitute per-
sons," it being material, that as they did not intend creating
any legal right, they should not seem to recognize it.
The Duke of WELLINGTON consented to the alteration
suggested by the Noble M ,rquis.
The Ear! of WICK 1.0 W said that if the clause created
any legal right, it would be most injurious to Ireland.
The LORD CHANCE LLOR had no hesitation in assur
ing the Noble Earl, that the Bill contemplated no legal right.
—( Hear, hear.)

After some further conversation the word " all" was ex-
I punged, and the clause, with one or two other verbal amend-
meets, was agreed to.
Lord FITZGERALD then signified his intention to pro-
pose his amendments again on the bringing up of the report.
The Duke of WELLINGTON now proposed that alter
the 41st clause the following clause (" A") should be in-
serted :
" And be it enacted that the Commissioners shall cause to
be printed for the use of every union a sufficient number of
register books for making entries of the descriptions of persons
admitted into and relieved in the workhouse according to the
form in the second schedule to this Act annexed, and in such
register books shall be printed upon each side of every leaf
the heads of information herein required to be registered re-
specting the persons so to be admitted and relieved;; and every
page of each such book shall be numbered progressively from
the beginning to the end, beginning with number one, and
every place shall be els° numbered progressively from the be-
ginning to the end of the book, beginning with number one;
and every entry shall be divided from the following entry by a
printed line."
The Earl of WICK LO W thought that this was a most im-
portant amendment; it was one for which he gave his sincere
thanks to the Noble Duke. But it was only in the principle
he concurred, as he feared that the manner in which it was
isorded would very much interfere with its good effects.
Lord ELL ENBOROUG H recommended, in case the
schedule should be adopted, that a column should be added,
stating whether or not the applicant for relief was an occupier
of rateable property.
The Earl of WICK LOW thought it highly inexpedient
that anything should appear in the Bill that would leave it to
be supposed that at the time of passing the Bill the Legisla-
ture contemplated extending relief to the class suggested by
the Noble Lord.
Lord E LLENBOROUGH said that, without extending
relief to that class of persons the Bill would be a mockery.
Most of the destitute persons in Ireland were occupiers of land
in some shape or other, and to say that they would relieve
the destitute at the same time that they refused relief to the
occupiers of land, was as great a mockery as Parliament could
possibly sanction.
The Marquis of L ANSDOWVE thought it better that it
should be left to the discretion of the Commissioners to say
what class of persons ought to be relieved. He would not say
that he was at all in favour of conferring relief to such an ex-
tent as to include this class ; but, at the same time, he did not
think it expedient to fetter the discretion of the Commissioners,
as the Noble Lord had proposed.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that there might
be many instances where persons holding one or two acres of
lend might, notwithstanding, be absolute paupers. This
would be a case where the occupier of landed property would
be a person claiming relief. In such cases a question would
arise, whether any interest possessed by such individual ought
not to devolve upon the unions.
The clause, as amended, was then agreed to.
The Duke of WELLINGTON then proposed the follow-
ing amendment:—
" And be it enacted that the Commissioners shall furnish to
every Board of Guardians, for the use of the master or other
principal resident officer of every workhouse, one of such re-
gister books, at a reasonable price, the cost whereof shall be
borne by the union in which such workhouse shall be situate ;
and every such mister or officer shall, as soon as conveniently
may be, register in the said book the particulars required to
be registered according to the form in the said second schedule,
touching every person to he admitted into and relieved in such
workhouse."
The Noble Duke's amendment was agreed to without dis-
cussion.
The Duke of WELLINGTON had now an amendment
to propose with respect to the localisation of the expenses.
His object was to localise the expense in such a way as would
provide for its administration in the most economical manner.
He had within the last two days received an account of the ex-
pense which had been incurred in building a lunatic asylum in
one of the counties in Ireland. The expense of building was
15,0001., though it had been estimated at half that amount.
The expense of maintaining .ninety lunatics for one year
amounted to two thousand pounds. Now this was twice the
expense that he knew to have been incurred under similar cir-
cumstances in a part of this country with which he was ac-
quainted, although one would think that the expense would
be greater in this count!), than in Ireland. When the expense
was paid out of the county purse no one had an interest in
keeping down the expense. He did not mean to say that eco-
nomy would have the effect of diminishing the number of lu-
natics, but it would have the effect of decreasing the expense.
The Noble Duke concluded by proposing the following
amendment
And be it enacted, that the Board of Guardians of every
Union shall cause accounts to be kept of the expense incurred
in respect of the persons relieved ia any workhouse within
such Union, and such accounts shall be made up at the end of
every six calendar months ; and the Board of Guardians shall
charge against the electoral division as formed by virtue of
this Act, at the end of such period, the proportion of such ex-
pense as shall appear to have been incurred in respect of
every person so relieved, who shall be stated in the registry to
have been resident in any townland included in such elec-
toral division ; and the expense incurred in respect of every
person so relieved, and not stated in the registry to have been
resid( nt within a townland situate in some electoral division
of the Union, shall be borne by and charged against the-
whole Union ; provided always, that it shall be lawful for the
Guardians elected for any two or more electoral divisions
within any Union, by writing under their hands, to agree that
all charges in respect of destitute poor persons resident within
such electoral districts respectively shall henceforth be borne
in common by such electoral districts ; and in such case such
agreement, having been first signed by the said Guardians,
shall be signed and sealed by the Commissioners, and one part
thereof deposited with the Commissioners, and a counterpart
or counterparts thereof, signed by the said Guardians, and
signed and sealed by the Commissioners, deposited with every
Cleric of the Peace of the County or Counties in which the
said Union shall be situate ; and every such Clerk of the
Peace shall and is hereby required, upon the receipt of such
agreement, part, or counterpart, to file the same with the re-
cords of such county, and from and after depositing and filing
of such last-mentioned agreement and counterpart, the same
shall be for ever binding upon such electoral divisions, and
shall not be revoked or annulled, anything hereinbefore con-
tained to the contrary notwithstanding."
The Earl of WICKLOW thought it would be much better
to substitute parishes instead of the electoral division.
The Earl of FING AL thought that the Noble Duke had
adopted the proper and best mode of localizing the expense,
and he would support his proposition.
Lord REDESDALE said that in England every parish
was an electoral district.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought that parishes
could more easily be adopted than electoral districts, because
the Ordnance survey had clearly defined the boundaries of
parishes. He thought (as we understood the Noble Lord)
that it would be better to substitute parishes.
Lord FITZGERALD said that the object of both sides of
the House seemed to be what was the best mode of localising
the expense and conducting its application with economy.
With respect to parishes, their limits were clearly defined,
and were entered in the county book. He felt great difficulty
as to the word " resident," and without some more clear de-
finition of that word than their Lordships had at present, he
did not see how he could get over this clause.
Lord HAT HE RTON and the Earl of WICKLOW mu-
tually-explained.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that it would be ab-
solutely- necessary to bisect large parishes, and, in his opinion,
the formation of electoral districts was the only way to equa-
lise the workine of this Bill. He thanked the Noble Duke
for his amendment, and he agreed with him that it would
operate as a stimulus to the landlords to look after their te-
nantry.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that parishes were
not of equal terminus with town lands. On the contrary, he
believed the boundaries of most parishes passed through the
centre of the town lands, and hence the necessity for electoral
districts.

Lord CARBERRY supported the proposition of his Noble
Friend (the Earl of Wicklow) for the insertion of the word
parishes instead of electoral districts.
The Marquis of SALISBURY thought that the better
way would be at once to adopt the suggestion of the Noble
Duke.

Lord CARBERRY said that what he wished was, that
each parish should support its own poor.
The Marquis of SALISBURY feared there would be some
difficulty in effecting that object.
Lord CARBERRY thought that it would not be attended
with any difficulty.
Lord ELLENBOR 0 UG H strongly conjured their Lord-
ships to define the word " resident," for that was the rock of
the law of settlement, which it was the desire of Noble Lords
to steer clear of.

The Earl of WICKLOW did not think the Boards of
Guardians could have any difficulty with respect to defining
what residence was. So strongly did he feel the propriety of
the amendment he had proposed, that he certainly should
take the sense of their Lordships as to whether the word
parishes should not be inserted in the clause instead of electoral
districts.

The LORD CHANCELLOR tla ed that any attempt to
define what " resident" was would only tend to establish that
which their Lordships were anxious to avoid, namely, the law
of settlement. He therefore could not agree that any defi-
nition of that word ought to be made, and as he thought that
electoral districts would equalize the burthen much better than
parishes he should prefer the proposition of the Noble Duke
to that of the 'Noble Earl.
Lord FIT ZG ERA LD said, it would seem that the only
protection against the law of settlement in Ireland was the
leaving the word " resident" vague and undefined. It would
seem that the Lord Chancellor of England could not define
that which every gentleman in Ireland could ; but, be that as
it might, seeing that the general feeline•of their Lordships was
for electoral districts rather than parishes, ho should give way.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, but none took
place, their Lordships having ultimately agreed to retain the
words " electoral districts" in the clause.
The Marquis of CL,ANRICAR.DE proposed an amend-
ment for the purpose of defining the word "resident ;" but
after a conversation, in which several Noble Lords took part,
he withdrew it, and said that he should at the end of the Bill
move a clause explanatory of the word " resident."
The Earl of WICKLOW observed that he should oppose
any proposition which might be brought forward for the pur-
pose of defining that word.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clause 42 was postponed.
On clause 43 being put,
The Bishop of EXETER moved the adoption of words
preventing Roman Catholic Bishops from having power over
the Friegs with respect to their ttot4dailce the workhouses,