The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-27 00:00:00

that number 70,000 are Protestant children, and of th at
number of Protestants there are 26,000 belonging to _ the
Church of England. The hon.member for Meath says there
is great inconsistency in those who advocate the system of
mixed education in Ireland not being
l ep
to England. But the circumstances
the members of the
ncesporfthareetdwtoo countries
are are entirely different. In England
Church constitute the majority,
to the,butinEng Churchlandther
e is an
infinite variety of sects opposed
—(hear)—and the systemhas beenEstablished to pm,nt to the
Church, and to the liochere
lies dissenting fromthe Church sepa-.
rate grants of money in order that the members of the dif-
ferent sects may be educated separately, and that religious
education education should also be given separately. In Ireland
circumstances are very different. There the members of
the Established Church are a small minority; the members
of the Roman Catholic Church constitute the immense
majority_(hear, hear)—and the endeavour has been, by
the exclusion of all religious teaching from the system of
joint education, to combine in one common system stietmie the
members of different creeds. (Hear, hear.) N
im-
portant that there should be no doubt as to the original
principle on which the system was founded ; and I contend.
• there can be no mistake whatever with respect
I
to then htine-
tentions of Earl Derby in founding that y
original statement of this plan,.andn the splan itself as it
originally was recorded, provision was made that the in-
struction should be altogether secular. The introduction
of the Scripture extracts was
no part of the original subsequent to the original
formed
formation of the system. It
plan, and even now the Scripture extracts are not enjoined
as a portion of the teaching in those schools. They are
permitted to be taught subject to an absolute veto on the
part of the parents of any one child who may object to the
use of these extracts. Such is the rule now—such has been
the rule from the very first commencement of the system.
Wear, hear.) Now it has been said that the late Govern-
ment were not unwilling to have promoted an inquiry of
this description if it had been brought forward by some
independent member. I am afraid that neither of the
members for the University of , Dublin, considering
their , relation to that Government, could have been
the mover or seconder of such an inquiry during the
existence of the late Administration. But was it ' ne-
cessary for Earl Derby, if he wished to alter the system,
to have an inquiry before a committee in order to ascer-
tain the success or failure of that system? We have
it•from himself that he, the author of the measure, having
the deepest interest in its success, occupying the highest
station in the Government, conferring with the Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland, making every inquiry which he might
think necessary—we have it from himself, in his place in
Parliament, that he, having made those inquiries, having
carefully deliberated, came to the conclusion that no ma-
terial change could be effected in the system consistently
with its maintenance. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the
hon. and learned member for the University of Dublin, I
believe I am correct when I state that, when he was first
a candidate for the representation of that university, about
the year 1847, he was most anxious, in his address to
those whom he was desirous of calling his constituents, to
impress upon their minds his feelings with reference to
this system ; and, if I mistake not, these were the words
• of his address - -"I am thoroughly averse to the delusive
system of Irish national education. (Hear, hear.) N 1 sys-
tem, as I conceive, can prosper in which the word of God
is not sincerely honoured as the greatest blessing to a
nation. Remember that the word from above is first pure,
then peaceable, and you cannot compromise its authority.
(Hear.) Now the hon. and learned gentleman, on becoming
a member of Earl Derby's Government, I have no doubt
honestly suspended his opposition to the system. No doubt
he had every reason to believe that some inquiry would be in-
stituted. Pending that inquiry he with perfect honour re-
mained a member of that Government. After Earl Derby
had come to the conclusion that no change could ' be
effected, it is not for me to inquire what course he ought
to have taken. But he continued to hold office, and I con-
sider his speech to-night to be perfectly consistent with his
hostility to the system. (Hear, hear.) It appears to me
most extraordinary that the two principal promoters of
this motion, representing the University of Dublin, should
be in this peculiar position. They represent a university
which does give to the rich of Ireland a purely secular
education without the slightest tincture or admixture of
religious teaching—(hear, hear)—and yet they are the per-
sons who are the most prominent in denying to the poor of
Ireland the very benefit which the learned body whom
they represent has conferred, and will, I hope, long con-
tinue to confer, upon the upper classes. (Hear, hear.)
Tho speech of the hon. member for Meath is a striking
practical illustration of a truth, for which on former occa-
sions I have contended, and which, I think, it is most
desirable the house should bear in mind before it consents
to this inquiry, which is subversive of the principles of a
mixed education. It is this, that the great body of the
Protestant clergy in Ireland concur with a very large por-
tion of the Roman Catholic priesthood in Ireland in ear-
nestly desiring to overthrow this mixed system, with the
view of obtaining separate grants for the purpose of pro-
selytizing, and teaching in conformity with their respective
creeds. (Hear, hear.) Now what is the fact ? lam
speaking from the authority of others, but I have
reason to believe that there is a marked difference
between the priesthood and the laity of Ireland, with-
out distinction of creed. The Protestant Bishop of
Waterford (Dr. Daly) is known to be most hostile to this
system of mixede education. I believe, notwithstanding
the Ecclesiastical Titles Act, I may say that the Roman
Catholic Bishop of Waterford partakes of the same hos-
tility. They both are dpposed to the system of mixed
education. But the laity of Waterford, both Protestant
and Catholic, are most anxious for the establishment at
Waterford of a model school in connection with the mixed
system of education. (Hear, hear.) They have presented
a memorial to the board to .that effect, and I believe in
pursuance of the wish of the laity that a model school of
that description is about to be established. (Hear, hear.)
Now what has been the result of this system of mixed
teaching? I believe that there is no country in Europe at
at this moment where education is conducted on so large a
scale, or I would say, notwithstanding religious differences,
where spiritual knowledge is so widely diffused by teaching
as in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) I contend that a clergyman
of the Established Church, the patron of a school under
the national system in Ireland, has at this time every op-
portunity of administering to the youth in that school of
which he is the patron, not only instruction in the Holy
Scriptures, but instruction in the Church Catechism and
in all the particular doctrines of the Church of England,
to the utmost possible extent he could desire. (Hear,
hear.) If it be not during the hours of secular instruction,
d tar by day ho has the opportunity and right of adminis-
tering religious instruction to all the members of his
church who attend that school. And that right is not
peculiar to him. Every minister of a different persuasion,
whether Presbyterian or Catholic, has the right of attend-
ing that school, and of administering religious instruc-
tion day by day to those who will take it. (Hear, hear. )
But what is really the pretension of the Church Education
Society ? (Hear, hear.) It is neither more nor less than
this : They put in on the same footing as the claim of
the Dissenters of England. The Dissenters of England, if
they send their children to the national school must allow
them to be taught the Church Catechism. That is the
rule of the National Society. The state of the national
school in Ireland is exactly the reverse. The child would
not be taught the Church Catechism there ; it need not'
receive any religious instruction from which the parent
dissents ; and the real desire of the Church Education So-
ciety in Ireland is to obtain aid from the public purse for
the purposes of teaching all those who shall attend that
school a creed from which the larger portion of the popu-
lation of Ireland dissents. (Hear, hear.) I warn the house
from yielding to this motion ; it is not in a covert sense
seeking to dissemble the desire of abandoning "the phan-
tom of mixed education," but it is for the purpose of esta-
blishing a separate system with a separate grant ; and
what will be the consequence ? The claim put forward by_
the hon. member for Meath will be irresistible - the claim
of the Roman Catholics to a participation in 'that grant
will be in reference to their numbers, and that claim, too,
will be irresistible. The largest proportion will be given
to the Roman Catholics, and the smallest to the Church of
England.; and you will have the flame of religious discord
spreading throught the country, and a proselytising spirit
unhappily adding to the evils and sorrows of that country.
I believe, instead of a system of peace and concord, you
will, have unfortunately a great aggravation of all the evils
and borrows of the country. (Hear, hear.) Now, I think
something was said by tha right hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for the University of Dublin with respect to the opinion
of Dr. Chalmers with regard to mixed education. It is
true that Dr. Chalmers thought that secular education
• without, any intermixture of religious teaching, was incom-
patible with the good of the community ? I think I have
here the opinioa of Dr. Chalmers on this very point, re-
corded within a very short period of his lamented death ;
and, with the permission of the house, I will read his
words :—" During the last few months of Dr. Chalmers'
life (says his biographer), the subject of national education
was much upon his mind, and the following was written
about a week before his death. Dr. Chalmers says on this
subject- 'I would suffer parents to select what part of edu-
cation they wanted for their children, and would not force
arithmetic upon them if all they wanted was reading and
writing ; and as little would I force any part of the reli-
gious instruction given in the schools if all they wanted
was secular education." (Hear, hear.) That was the
opinion of Dr. Chalmers. Now, will the house permit me
to read the opinion of Archbishop Usher, a still higher
authority, on this very point? Archbishop Usher said, the
state of the country was much to be lamented, when the
people generally were suffered to perish for want of know-
ledge; adding ' the consideration whereof hath sometimes
driven me to treat with those of the opposite party, and
to move them, however much we may differ in other
things, to join together in teaching those main points, the
knowledge whereof is necessary unto salvation, and of the
truth whereof there is no controversy." (Hear, hear.)
Now, I feel satisfied if Archbishop Usher, having given
expression to those opinions, were now alive, that he, the
Primate, would be the patron of the National School
Society of the city of Armagh. That is my firm convic-
tion. But I say, mixed with all this system of religious
difference, there lurks a degree of political difference.
Something was said about the examination before the
committee of 1839. I was a member of that committee,
and, perhaps you would like to hear a specimen of the
evidence given before it on this very question as to the use
of the Bible among the poor in Ireland. A witness said
as soon as the system was announced meetings were got up
in every town of Ulster, at one of which Lord Roden
presided ; the people were led to believe that the Govern-
ment were about to take their Bibles from them ; and at
that meeting they carried their Bibles with them, and after
it Was over gun clubs were established, for the purpose of
enabling the peasants to protect their Bibles. (Laughter).
Sir Mr. ISAAC G., BUTT—What is the name of the witness?
aakHAIII—The evidence will be found in the
question and answer numbered 7,687 and 7,688. lam not
honourable ajil witness's
name
at this moment, but if the
he will eaui 4 eulled.gentleman will go into the library,
think I show you (An ironical laugh.) Again, I say, I
this semblance of rell'''t there does lurk under the whole of
iaii,oer difference a bitter ingredient of
political animosity. me also read what the Rev. Mr.
Trench says. He state
bzall school and a Church Edu-
he lived—" There is a nation of the town in which
cation school ; I visited
; in the national
school I found Scripture extraC'tfasetzheerme read • I asked the
hetiter the Scrip-
master of the Church Education
.%yhat was the
tare extracts were read in that scl<i)000ll7
(Laughter.)
I 'yvoiifd,
bean
Nyh
tetyh c
tohn 0-
reply ? " Oh; no, sir; we are all Tories h
Now, I say this house will act most anwe.re
avowed
sent to this inquiry, moved for the reasolnse
intentions, hardly dissembled, which haves
this evening. I am quite satisfied that this3B
which we have had twenty two years' experience,eemii:fs
wrought infinite good in Ireland. Is it stationary ? tn._
happily the population of that country has been diminished
by nearly two millions; and do the numbers attending the
national schools diminish in the same proportion ? On
the contrary, during all the period of the last four years,.
while the population has been diminishing, the numbers
attending the national schools have progressively and
largely increased. In the last year, when emigration has
been at the greatest height, the number attending the
- sc..liqr IN ..14. a. .er than ever before ;was known, and
t
25,000 children. When, therefore,
rfke :1"), ;11 of this system; and who has lately
--- - . ~, ' a• -'1?- ' ntrolling its operation, has t
a
saner ,contemplato arty char.e
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iv
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