The Sun.
London, England, 1854-06-09 00:00:00

IMPERI

AMENT.

ROUSE OF COMMONS-(YESTERDAY.)

The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following amendments of the Lords were ordered
to be considered :—East London Waterworks • 'sling.
ton Cattle Market ; Whitehaven, Cleator, and Egre-
mont Railway Bills.
The following bills were read a third time and passed
—Bannow Reclamation ; Dukinfield Gas ; Great West-
ern, Shrewsbury, and Birmingham, and Shrewsbury
and Chester Railway Companies Amalgamation ; Law
Life Assurance Society ; Portsmout
hir
h and Direct Lon.
don and Portsmouth Railways ; Shropse Union Rail-
ways and Canal ; Stourbridge and Bridgenorth Road.
The following bills were considered and ordered to
lie upon the table :—Bangor and Carnarvon Railway ;
Cork and Waterford Railway ; Eastern Counties Rail-
way (Station Enlargement, &c.) ; Horncastle and Kirk-
stead Junction Railway ; Inverness and Nairn Rail-
way • Leominster and Kington Railway ; London
and 'North-Western Railway (Haydon Square, &c.) ;
Newport and Pillgwenlly Waterworks ; Ouse and
Derwent, &c., Drainage ; Thirsk and Yarm Road ;
Tralee and Killarney Railway.
The British Guarantee Association (No, 2) Bill was
read a second time.
PETITIONS.
Petitions were presented by Mr. E. BALL from places
in Cambridgeshire, in favour of the abolition of church
rates ; by Mr. HATTER, from Wells, praying for vote
by ballot, as the only means of protecting the voters ;
by Mr. HADFIELD, from a Baptist congregation in
Sheffield, in favour of stopping the sale of intoxicating
liquors during the whole of Sunday ; by the ATTORNEY-
GENERAL, two petitions from Southampton, one in
favour of admitting dissenters to the universities, the
other for the abolition of church rates.
THE ESTIMATES.

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wished to know what esti-
mates it was proposed to take to-night in committee of
supply ?
Mr. WILSON said it was proposed to commence with
No. 1 in the printed estimates and go through them in
their order. The estimates connected with the revenue
department, which were included in the notice on the
paper to-day, could not be considered by the house until
the bill on the subject had passed into a law.
Mr. H. HERBERT asked when the packet service
estimates were likely to be printed ?
Mr. WILSON hoped they would be printed in a few
days.

MINISTER OF WAR.
On the motion for going into committee of supply,
Lord J. RUSSELL rose and said—Sir, in moving the,
you leave the chair, I will give an answer to the question
which the honourable member for Montrose addressed to
me before the recess with respect to the administration of
the affairs of the army, I imagine that there are two
questions upon this subject which engage the attention of
the house—the one is the question of giving more imme-
diate vigour and efficiency to the war department, and the
other relates to the arrangements to be made respecting
the administration of all the various departments connected
with military affairs. Now, sir, with regard to the first
point, namely, the more efficient administration of mili-
tary affairs in time of war—it is, I think to be collected
from the general feeling, and it is the opinion of her Ma-
jesty's Government, that a Minister having the charge of
the Colonial department, bearing in mind the manner in
which the business of that department has increased
since the last war, is both physically and morally unable
to give the affairs of the war department that great amount
of attention, time, and labour which those affairs in time
of war absolutely require. (Hear, hear.) It is, therefore
the opinion of her Majesty's Government that the affairs
of the War Department, instead of being united to the ad-
ministration of the Colonies, as they at present are,should
be separated from it. The next question regards the ad-
ministration of the various departments which aro con-
nected with military affairs. The house is aware that
these departments are several in number, and it knows,
likewise, that one of the principal Secretaries of State' as
Secretary of State for the War Department, takes the
Queen's pleasure with respect to the amount of
forces to be kept up for the year—takes' the Queen's
pleasure, also, with regard to any considerable aug-
mentation to be made, and generally takes from her Ma-
jesty by those directions which the military. affairs of this
country are regulated. The Secretary at War administers
the financial affairs of the army ; the Board of Ordnance
has, in the first place, the management of the artillery and
the engineers, but it has likewise various other duties to
perform which from time to time have been added to it;
the commissariat is a department by itself, and its duties
are well known; and there are various other departments
which are more or less concerned in the military affairs of
the country. Now, sir, in the year 1831,32 there was a
committee of the Government appointed, of which the
Duke of Richmond was the head, and of which I had the
honour of being a member, and that committee was of
opinion that there should be a general board, which should
have the affairs of the army under its control, but divided
into different apartments—one to lodge the army, another
to clothe the army, a third to feed the army, a fourth to
furnish arms, and so on. Somewhat later a commission
was appointed, of which Earl Grey, who was then Secre-
tary of War, was the head, and of which, also, I had the
honour of being a member, and that commission was of
opinion—at least, Earl Grey suggested, and the members
of the commission concurred in the recommendation—that
there should be greater concentration of departments, and
that the Secretary at War should exercise many of the
functions which are now discharged by the Secretary of
State. The plan which I have first mentioned did not
meet with the approbation, if I recollect right, of Earl
Grey, who was then at the head of the Government, and
it certainly was not persevered in any farther. The second
plan was laid before the Duke of Wellington, who stated
to Lord Melbourne, the First Minister of the Crown,
such grave and, I think, such reasonable objections to
the placing in the hands of the Secretary at War a con-
trol which properly belonged to one of her Majesty's
Secretaries of State, that the plan likewise was not pro-
ceeded with. Sir, under these circumstances, her Ma-
jesty's Government are of opinion that the best thing to be
done for the present would be to confine ourselves to the
change of making a separate Secretary of State for the War
Department, confiding to him a superintendence over all
those matters which fall under the administration of mili-
tary affairs in time of war. Having been a member of both
commissions, I have no hesitation in saying that I was not
at all satisfied, after hearing the objections of Earl Grey
and the Duke of Wellington, that either of the proposed
plans would have ensured the efficient and complete work-
ing of all the yea ions departments connected with military
affairs in this country. But a Secretary of State would
have those departments under his immediate superinten-
dence. He would have the control of the whole of them,
and could say from time to time what improvements ought
to be introduced, and could either introduce these improve-
ments singly, or prepare some plan to be afterwards sub-
mitted to the consideration of the Government as a more
general reform of the various military departments. This,
I think, is all that it would be advisable at the present
moment to attempt. To introduce greater changes—to
derange and put into a state of confusion all those various
departments at a time when we have but lately entered
into a war—would, in my opinion, be a very rash and
dangerous undertaking. I have been told, with respect to
the most beneficial change which was made by my right
honourable friend the present First Lord of the Admiralty,
when he abolished the Navy Board more than twenty
years ago, that it took upwards of two years before that
alteration could be made so as to ensure the harmonious
working of the new system. If that be so, it is obvious
you cannot adopt in the first instance an entire plan, with-
out the risk of producing probably a great deal more con-
fusion than at the present time, instead of ensuring that
harmony and unity which are so much desired, There
are certain principles which I think should guide
us with respect to this subject. It is easy to say
" Unite the various departments." But while there is
the greatest benefit in having one head which can control
departments and branches of the same kind of service,
there very often will be great disadvantage in uniting in
one department what ought to be dividecfamongst several.
The progress which has been made in society in general
has been a progress made, not by uniting, but by separat-
ing different mechanical arts and manufactures which in
early times were united together. Is it not the same with
regard to the immediate subject under our notice ? If we
were to desire the infantry to do the work of the cavalry,
and the cavalry to be as complete as the artillery, that,
evidently, instead of improvement, would rather produce
disorganisation, and prevent the efficient working of those
different branches. At the same time, everybody sees that
it is unfit that the commander of the cavalry should have
a separate command, or that the commander of the artillery
should have his own mode of conducting operations, and
that it is desirable all should bo under one head and ono
commander. With respect to certain things unity is de-
sirable. With respect to others, separation is the best way
of attaining that end. It appears to the Government better
to allow the Secretary of State, who is placed at the head
of this department to consider from time to time what is
the best arrangement, and how improvements can be in-
troduced. It certainly appears that there are defects,
which have been pointed out by my honourable friend the
member for Montrose; and by others, in the other as well
as in this house, and no doubt very considerable improve-
ments can be made. (Hear, hear.) There is one change,
however, which I must say I do not think we can consider
in the light of an improvement—that the patronage exer-
cised by the Commander-in-Chief, without political consi-
derations should be abolished. (Hear.) Ido not think that
would be likely to give satisfaction to the public. It seems
to me far better that the patronage should continue to be
exercised as for a long series of years it has been and is now
exercised, having regard to the benefit of the army, totally
apart from any considerations of which party is in power
or in opposition. (Hear, hear.) These are the only re-
marks which I wish to make on this subject. It will not
be necessary to have recourse to Parliament for any bill to
separate the departments of war and the colonies. That
can bo effected nearly in the same manner as the Home
Department was separated from that of War and the
Colonies. There will be, of course, some increased ex-
penses ; but the establishment now found to be sufficient
for both departments will be nearly sufficient for them
when separated. An estimate will be proposed for defray-
ing the charges of the Secretary of State for the War De-
partment ; and the Secretary of State for the War Depart-
ment, having his undivided attention given to the affairs
of that department—never more important than at the pre-
sent moment, or requiring more vigour and decision—will
be able to serve his country in the manner it deserves.
Mr. HUME was glad to find her Majesty's Government
had made a beginning, but hoped they would lay on the
table some more definite plan. He was one who agreed
with the noble lord in thinking that individuals should bo
placed in a situation to perform separate duties, but united
at the same time under one command. He never contem-
plated altering the powers of the Commander-in-Chief with
respect to patronage. What he desired to see was one head
—a member of her Majesty's Government—who should have
the opportunity of being consulted upon all orders thatrm were
given. He wished to see the artillery form part oy,
and no longer be a strange body, unknown to the Comman-
der-in-Chief. He wished to see men of experiencetaapt-
pointed as aides-de-camp, to perform those most i,nslpz,
iung
duties, instead of young men of two or three yiears t
The ar-
ia the army who wore entirely incapab e.
rations. rangements he desired were arrangee tints
which t
d 1 all
eury
considered the Treasury ought to
checkthat ant
,
control
the Tr as
a-
partments, he thought it anomalousportpat
of
al
should have tho mosgement a that boat LIP itwhoouughhi nhoet
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services in the field—the commissariat. There should also half, as any other tenant would do, and the public pair
be somelarrangement with regard to stores. He did not the other.
wish to blame the Government, but while the manner in Mr. HUME advocated the reference of the estimates is
which the artillery and troops had been conveyed to the a select committee as the only effectual means of bringing
East was highly creditable to the country, it was utterly them into a satisfactory state. However ,taking military
s vote
impossible there could be that efficiency which under a as it was he found a charge of 595/.the m
proper system might have been obtained. He was not die- knights' houses at Windsor Castle, although it was stated
satisfied with what was now proposed, but he wanted a that there were several thousand pounds which ought to
little more to be done, and the sooner it was done the be applicable to that purpose ; a charge of 4,9641. for lia-
better. (Hoar.) They did not know how long the war bilities incurred under theth act 11castl ande
and town ofV
12 Victoria for ime
would continue, and they ought to be prepared at all proving the approaches to e Vindsor,
points, for now that the country had entered upon war although no less a sum than 85,0001. had been paid by two
they had a right to expect operations would be conducted railway companies, which ought to be available for care
with the greatest efficiency. Unless, therefore, the noble Tying into effect the provisions of that act • charges for the
lord laid upon the table a programme of what would would be British Museum and for the Royal Mint,' although there
united and what separated, so as to promote efficiency in was a separate vote for each to be afterwards proposed;
the different departments, it was impossible the house and no less than 20,1581. for the rent of houses occupied as
would be satisfied or disposed to vote any money. He public offices, although there was a piece of ground in
wished to ask whether it was correct that orders had been Downing-street which bad remained unoccupied for years,
given for altering the clothing of the army, and whether and upon which, with other property adjoining, for which
any arrangement had been made for separating the Ord- an estimate had been obtained, he believed that buildings
nance Department from the artillery ? might have been erected at a very moderate expense, ac-
Mr. E. ELLICE said it would be very unfair to his noble cording to a plan which had been laid upon the table of
just
immur ii:eggatnihs:auttl
n,rshenwee:ohrhmueeena
fcihaditoene,irdu. announcedsebtterAsatatct:tfehoner this
mingle with their congratulations any observations which business have been brought together under one roof.
fromthos
aitchniesspellexpediencyyf time,heinsirl:
nobles
atpogpfernot
friend'shevreasllo
afmeasuressttsahe
thaett. Sir W. MOLESWORTH explained that of the 4,9641.
mtwrschichiaasetocpsrluuee hisrhl
ctetitio.sbteoHoproposed to be paid in discharge of liabilities at Windsor,
ment had fallen far short of satisfying him with respect to
the arrangements which were about to take place. Ho the first vote. of 2,664/, was mainly for professional services
performed antecedently to the passing of the act ; the other
member
recetf otnhoesetaotreemmeisnstioonf hefis
InBo3blle,
and neither
itHheer
he sum of 2,030/. was required to put the roads in proper
wslissehae dint:
nor Sir James Kemp concurred in the report which waswas order before the charge of obtaining them could be trans-
nimpression
theb
leGovernment
friend
at
t himself
the ;
t iamn
approvedde . he e ver y
'Whatowf muchaits—raeqt doubteduleiraes
dt , fared to the respective parishes, and, he believed, would be
the last sum that would be asked for that purpose. He
quite agreed with his hon. friend that the private houses
tino
euci our
quite
tmaedicloi
responsible
concurred
ed witteh establishmentsthhithis
ss
nho house
eswefarfisoe,
rii ttdhh
ieenteixht
phi
nee
nkr e:
qwhich were rented by the Government and used as public
ww hithatteh. offices were unfit places for the purpose, and that great
advantage would result from bringing the different de-
partments together into one suitable building. He had.
plans tobe prepared, and (so we understood) should
ins that it was the last thing to be desired that any politi- baeulsepdpy to propose that they should be acted on, if he
cal influence should be exercised with respect to the pa- could prevail- upon the Chancellor. of the Exchequer to
tronage of the army, and he should be very sorry to see
the discretion of the Commander-in-Chief interfered with sanction the necessary expenditure.
Lord SEYMOUR thought, as the expense, of the Poste
by political parties ;at the same time it had always oc- office and Custom-house establishments were for the future
to be the subject of vote, it would have been well if the
curved to him that whatever recommendations were made
to the Crown should be in some respect under the advice amounts required by those establishments for the repair of
and control of the Government of the day. There were their public buildings had been included in the. present
various questions about patronage and promotions in the vote.
_H e had. heard. with great pleasure the opinion ex-
army, which should be entirely controlled by a Minister
. pviedcveesdwttree not only most inconvenient, pressed by his right hon. friend against the occupation of
privatei_ houses as public offices, for he felt that such
s ec ar 0 historytSecretary-at-War
ry-at - ofw thear bae log i but that they in.
responsible to this house for the expenditure of the army.
naH
se
he
s would notthis
troublesubject,
shore
ulhde
be
eadennoe ... _employment of a large number ber
_of persons as
messengers and doorkeepers, and in other subordinate ca-
cont e
control.repacities, whose services might easily be dispensed with, if
spownshiabtlehfeorsudhempiatrttemdents
was, ovtehrerwe
the • public a.
various offices were grouped together and
superintending authority to control the parties having the
management brought under one roof. The arrangement,
of different details. If it was intended that „ lead . . therefore,
in would to a considerable saving of expense.
the new Secretary of State should only be employed Mr. WILSON explained that, the bill for effecting the
time of war, then, indeed, they would have made very
proposed change in the revenue deartments not having
little progress in improving their military administration.
yet become law, the votes for repairs in
those departments
If it was intended to be a permanent office, not only to
could not be included in the estimates which were now
transact all affairs connected with military operations, but
before the house. Next year the
to course suggested
to conduct and be responsible for the whole military admi- noble lord would be adopted.
nistration of the country, then he could see no reason why Mr. HUME said that in the Civil-list 10,000/. were al-
that Secretary of State should not b e responsible for the whole
lowed for royal gardens. Now in the present
votes
he ob-
administration, whether by the Master of the Ordnance, the served an item of 1,6561. for royal kitchen gardens, forcing
Commissary-General, the barrack-master, or the officer who houses, buildings; &c. He wished to have some emplane.
supplied the clothing. What he wanted was, all those parties tion on this item.
responsible to the Secretary of State, and the Secretary of Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the outlay was for the
State responsible to the House of Commons, so that the kitchengarden at Frogm re, and included
royal iron en.
control of the House of Commons should be much greater trances and fences, and repairs of forcing houses.
over the military expenditure, for which they had to call Mr. WISE wished to call the attention of the right hon.
upon the people to submit to taxation. (Hear.) The com- baronet to the charges for the residence of the British am-
missariat was managed, as he thought, most improperly by
bassador at Paris. There was a charge of upwards of 6001.
the Treasury. (Hear.) But in making that statement he for water and other services. Last year the sum voted for
would guard himself from being supposed to think that the repairs of the embassy was 5,8201., and a further Sinn
the banking part of the commissariat should not remain f3'3
3,3931. was about to be proposed. He thought some
°
with the Treasury. It was essential that the Treasury
explanation of the first item was necessary. Then with
should control the whole expenditure of the country in
ptto Marlborough house there were three items—one
every department, and in order to enable them to do that, roefs2e2e76l. for general and ordinary expenses and another
they must not be undertaking the expenditure in detail of
under the head of "rents," bsc. He did not at all under-
any one department. What the house appeared to him to
stand that item, inasmuch as he understood the Crown
desire, what commissions had all agreed upon, what com-
had consented to the occupation. He thought it would
mittees had always insisted upon, was that there should be
be desirable in future to place those items together, and
not under different heads.
one authority, not to undertake the administration of the
various departments, but one authority to which all those
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the first amount alluded
various departments could report and refer, and who,
to with respect to the ambassador's house at Paris, in.
being the head of the military administration of the coun-
eluded. the ordinary rates and other services at the sm•
try, should be responsible to that house. (Hear.) He hassy. The other charge was for setting the house in
quite agreed with the noble lord that they ought not to proper order.
" rents,"
act hastily, without due caution, without due preparation. Mr. WILSON said the item under the head
If the Secretary of State now appointed was to have the Sec., relating to Marbororough-house, included charges
power by degrees, as he saw expedient for the benefit of made up from that and a great number of other houses.
the public service, to bring into subjection to his own de- Mr. PELLATT said he objected to the charge on ace
pertinent such details of the administration as appeared to count of the British Museum, inasmuch as the public had
him might be better managed under such control, then he
not the full advantage of the benefits of that institution,
should be perfectly satisfied ; but if, on the other hand, it being admitted only three days a week. It was said that
was intended for carrying on operations during the war, to the other days were appropriated to students, but the
appoint only a temporary officer (because he hoped they attendance was very small. On one occas
boo
and the ion when heks
might look forward some time or other to the re-establish- called there were not more than 12 present,
meat of peace), then he did not think the country would of attendance did not show the average to be more than 24.
be satisfied with this change. (Cheers.) Mr. GOULBURN said that it had been the opinion of
Mr. RICH observed that the proposal of the noble lord
the horse that it would be for the advantage of the public:
had met with such general assent that it would be unne- to allow students the opportunity undisturbed of copying
cessary for him to move the resolution of which he had
the fine specimens of ancient art, and it would be impo
of
given notice, notice, declaring that the several departments for Bible for them to pursue their studies in the presence
the administration of the army required to be consolidated,
40,M000 or 50,000 persons.
economised, and simplified. He knew no possible ground r. EWART said it was most desirable to allow the
why the commissariat should be connected with the Trea-
sury, and it was a notorious fact that it was the most ex- f e
public the opportunity of studying the works o 0 old
pensive and ill-conducted of all the public departments. ancient masters. A great many of the drawings o l
He rejoiced at the change which the noble lord had inti- only be seen by a restricted number of persons, but this
mated, and which the house had so well received, and he inconvenience might be remedied by placing the drawings
was prepared to give it every support. under glass so as to protect them from injury.
Colonel DUNNE considered that much would depend Mr. GOULBURN said that wish had frequently been
upon who was to be the Minister. (Hear, hear.) He expressed before, and the trustees some time ago prepared
P
should wish him to be a military man, but he supposed a two rooms for the purpose, but the arrival of the Assyrian
Minister of the Crown who was also a member of the mi- antiquities had rendered it necessary to change the plan.
Mary- profession could not always be found. He did not He trusted the trustees would be able to make seine ar-
think the army had been sent to Turkey so efficiently as rangements to accomplish the objects alluded to by the
the country had a right to expect. and the commissariat hon. member.
was extremely faulty, and he believed at the moment the Mr. PELLATT said if it was necessary to set apart days
s
troops were moving on Varna they had no guns larger than for students in the statuary department,
he did no
6-pounders, the heavy artillery having only just left Wool- why the public could not be admitted to the other rooms
with. during five days out of the six.
Mr. M. GIBSON asked whether the new Secretary of Mr. GOULBURN said the hon. member should recollect
State would sit in the House of Commons ? that an establishment like the British Museum required
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say that two Se- to be cleaned and kept in proper order.
cretaries of State would always sit in the House of Com- The vote was then agreed to.
mons, and that the Secretary of War would be competent The next
of vote was 19,, 371 71.,
cfor the completion of the
to sir there.
south wing Buckingh P.
Mr. M. GIBSON—Is it to be ntood that the ew Mr. HUME said that something like amillion and a half
Secretary of State is to sit in th ue
house ders n
of Commons? (A had been expended on Buckingham Palace, and he should.
laugh, ia which Lord John Russell joined, but made no lik
ate tobuild in know ifg? this was to be the last vote on account of
answer). th
Mr. HUME rose, but Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the sum now asked for
The SPEAKEIi said the hon. member had already was a portion of a
elude former vote, and he hoped it would in.
spoken. all that was necessary to be done to the building.
Mr. HUME said it was a new question. He had spoken The vote was then agreed to.
on the order for going that
the of supply being read, The next vote proposed was 66,585 for maintaining and
but not on tho motion that the Speaker do leave the chair. keeping in repair the walls, keepers' lodges, and other bu
(Calls of " Order.") ings, fences, roads, rides, drives, footpaths, &c., in the
The SPEAKER said—According to rule, the order was several royal parks, pleasure gardens, &c.
read by the clerk at the table, and no objection being made, Mr. EWART said the public ha the advantage of ad-
the noble lord moved that I now leave the chair, and on mission to Bushy park and gardens; but there was a large
that question the hon. member has spoken. (Hear.) park connected with Hampton-court grounds called the
Mr. W. WILLIAMS regretted that his hon. friend had Home-park, to which theirublic were not admitted. He
not had an opportunity of addressing- the house, as he be- could see no reason for exclusion. He wished to sug-
lieved it had been his intention to have moved that these gest to the right hon. baronet therestoration of the ancient
estimates be referred to a select committee. The increase fountain in Bushy-park.
which had taken place in their amount within the last few Sir W. MOLESWORTH said, with regard to the park
years was a matter which deserved the serious use alluded to by the honourable member, there weroe hordtnaierz
tion of the house. rights of the ranger recognised by statute, and h di
The question was then put and agreed to, and the house see how they could be controverted.. He would, however,
went into committee, Mr. Bouverie in the chair. He b
consider if anything could be done in the matter. e-
SUPPLY. lieved the restoration of the fountain would be attended
On the motion that a sum of 135,8631. be granted to her
wieell2-PlTlsrAttliCxo rustee.d that on the appointment of the
Majesty to defray the expenses of the royal palaces and Mr.
new ranger an entrance to the park would be secured to
public buildings,
the public.
Mr. WISE inquired whether the painting of the stone
Mr. HUMS wished to know where the receipts for the
work of the east front of Buckingham Palace, which had
•
certainly disfigured it extremely, had been rendered neces- Home-park went to
nd
?
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the receipts from the TS.-
sary by the decayed state of the stone.
Sir ti 'P• V MOLESWORTH said a great number of public ricers parks, amounting to 5,2201., were paid into the Con-
buildings had suffered from the wet and frost of the last solidated Fund.
seasou. Buckingham Palace was amongst the number ; •
Mr• HUME contended that all the parks for which pub-
and in order to preserve the stone work it had been found lie money was voted ought to be thrown open to the pub-
necessary to paint it. lie. (Hear, hear.) The opening of the parks had been at-
Mr. HUME considered this no answer to the question. tended with the greatest advantage to the public ; and to
When public money was voted, it was the duty of some show the interest felt on the subject, he might state that,
department to see that it was properly expended, and that during the last year, the number of visitors to Kew-gare
proper materials were used. When the new Houses of dens was 381,210. He trusted before long to see all the
Parliament were to be built, an inquiry had been instituted Public places thrown open on Sundays. (Hear, hear.)
into the relative durability and costs of different clescrip- Sir G. PECHELL said that nothing could be more (lo-
tions of stone, and it had been ascertained that stone from corous than the conduct of the visitors on all occasions.
Normandy, such as that of which Henry VlL's Chapel When he found last year an item of 1,200/. for Bushy
was built, and the capability of which to stand the weather Park, and this year an item of 1,9001. he e_vaats
thei feopss.
had been amply tested, could be got at as cheap a rate as that something was going on. He trusted that
any in England. tain would be restored, and believed it had fallen into
Lord SEYMOUR bore testimony to the immense diffi- decay only through the negligence of the department over
preed.
Mr. W. WILLIAMSc
culty of procuring such stone as would stand the London which the right
honourable baronet
(18661
h antotwention of he com-
atmosphere. There was scarcely a stone building in the e
_O.
efor keeping St.t James's
metropolis which had not had to be renewed, and when he mittee to the large sum fl 3
kand Hyde Park in repair. He
was at the Board of Works, and the question of enlarging Park, the Green Peatrhe.r
of dens of 66,54
5/. for the
Buckingham Palace was under consideration, he had been wished to know whether
arks and pleasure gano portion Was taken
assured by the scientific and practical men whom he had royal Pe
consulted that the only way of obtaining a stone which lands '
from the Crown .
Mr. WILSON said there was a largo increase in the
which would resist the influence of the atmosphere was to
civil service estimates from year to year, but there was a
have a competent authority at the quarry to examine and
• h
constant process going on o p f eying into the Consolidated
mark every stone, and to allow no son© to be used which Fund the revenues and fees which had in former years
had not the mark of that authority upon it. been expended on the parks. With regard to this vote,
Mr. WILLIAMS saw that the vote included a sum of
every source of income was paid into the Exchequer, and
2,0001., for replacinge the present decayed farm buildings
every portion of the expense was votedby the house. (Hear.
in Windsor-park. presumed that these were the buildings
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the increased expense
for
in the occupation of his Royal Highness Prince Albert ;
and he thought that if his royal highness paid neither
the parks arose from the increase in the price of materials
• and labour. It was necessary to employ a considerable
rent nor taxes, the cost of keeping such buildings in repair
number of officers for the preservation of order. (Hear.)
ought not to be paid by the public. He objected also to
___ __ _ . . . f l
the public being charged as they were in these estimates, Mr. EWART complained that large quantities o grave
with the expenses of the offices and staff of the ecclesiasti- had been dug up in different parts of Hyde-park, and that
cal and tithe commissions. Such charges were most unjust, the excavations had re-
been filled up with mud an other_ _ 0
considering the immense property of the Church. fuse, thereby causing complete swamps. He trused th
Mr. WILSON said his Royal Highness Prince Albert right hon. baronet would put a stop to such a course of
paid for the farms which he occupied the same rent as Proceeding.
Lord R GROSVENOR truste .
a to
ht e rig hhe t hon. b
fountainaronet
would turn his attention to the subie t
would be charged to any ordinary tenant, and the amount .
ct of t a
of that rent was carried to the public credit. His royal not to be destroyed
highness, it was well known, was a great improver, and had Bushy-park. A work like that our
carried "high farming" to a point of great perfection ; for want of sufficient repairs. HofE,
but whenever he had proposed substantial or permanent In reply to a question by a
le it said that a portion of the sum
improvements, and those improvements had been carried Sir W. MOLESWO
eh.p rk was required for improvement.
out, they had been paid for in the same way as they of 1,3661, for Greener_
CHEleis sa?l'd the right hon. gentleman had.
would have been in any other case, one half by the Sir G. PE
noticeof the suggestion respecting the fountain.
Crown, as landlord, and the other half by his royal high- takeirn iliccre
MOLESWORTH said he understood the repairs
nets, as tenant. (Hear, hoar.) He thought that, upon
8.
would st a very considerable sum, but he would take
the whole, they were rather more strictin dealing with his
lte o
re co
another estimate made. (Hear.)
royal highness, than they were with an ordinary tenant.
cakr. we WILLIAMS said her Majesty had consented to
With reference to the other observations which the honour-allow carriages to pass from Pall-mall through St. James's-
able gentleman had made, he could only say that if corn-
ark, and he thought it would be a great convenience to
missions were appointed for important public purpose I)
the public if cabs were allowed the same privilege.
they must be provided with offices, and those offices must In answer to a question by Mr. SPOONER,
be furnished. Sir W. MOLES WORTH said that the sum of 7531. for
f cres
Mr. SP
Royal inquired what was the number o a_
in Kennington-common included the expense of providing
which his Royal Highness Prince Albert occupied, and
respect of which this 2,0001. was to be expend wit
h ? shrubs, plants, &c., and for laying out the park.
,nen with his The vote was then agreed to.
Lord SEYMOUR said,
as the arrangeat the Board of On the vote of 141,291/. for the expense of works at tha
Royal Highness was made when he was
to explain that, New Houses of Parliament,
Works, he might perhaps be permittedrinp Truce Albert occupied Mr. W. PATTEN inquired whether any settlemeat had.
with respect to the farms writhe the
same way
as been come to with Sir Charles Barry, for superintending
and farmed, ho was treated in P
C ; but that with respect the works at the Houses of Parliament ?
any ordinary tenant of the
considered an appendage to Mr. WILSON said that the whole circumstances of the
to the dairy farm,
that wasmuch to be kept up as the case had been gone into, and the Treasury had come to a
the castle, which ought a
rt of her Majesty's establishment. conclusion as to what would be a fair amount of remune-
kitchen or any othr imagined
th t this 2,0001. was required ration. A communication had
hob;een made to Sir Charles
a
(Hear, hear.) Ho
outa,
plan which was in contemplation Barry the subject,b t
murred, and there the
on
in order to carry
for putting the buildings on the matter stood at present. He understood that Sir Charles
when he was in office,
~.. ort of his own
suitable condition. Their state was ter- Barry was preparing a statement in supp
dairy farm into
tainly not such as any nobleman would like the buildings views. Government would not consent
y farm to be in. Mr. HUME hoped the .
on his own dair
,_were
hine until the accounts
Sir W. MOLESA ORTH assented to the accuracy of to pay Sir Charles Barry at
Before 'a stone was I„ id the Gem-
Lord Seymour's explanation, and said that this sum of made up. (Hear, hear.) .
reelresided, came to the con-
s2,ooo/. which was now asked for was required for the mittee, over which Sir
inducement
. be
presided,
in the shape of remu-
purpose of completing the now farm buildings on the dairy elusion that 25,000. should
e any inducement to increase
farm. aeration, in order to remov
and each of the gentlemen who
Mr. S POONER quite agreed with the noble lord that the estimated expdiir,
furnished wills a copy of that decision.
the dairy farm was an appendage to the castle, and had no sent in p
- law
was'
'EN inquired what sum had been paid
objection whatever to its being made as perfect as possible, Mr. J. W. PAD_ e
but the explanation just offered differed very materially to Sir Charles Barry '•
WILSON said drat, soaking 0 .
eakine from recollection, he
from that which had been before given by the Secretary Mr- 0001 The original estimate for the works,
of the Treasure• be lived about 40, •
included in which Sir Charles Barry was, as arranged by
Mr. WILSON said the explanation was this. Improve-
Besborough, to receive 25,000/., was 600,000/. or
Lordm
meats on the dairy farm were paid for wholly by the 4 Upon the additional yfcrric, Sir Cliarlophyl boon
public; on the other arras his Royal ilighnom paid one 7QQ'