The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-06 00:00:00

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[PRICE SD•

- improvements Parliament could make in the railway sys-
tem the public were entitled to require at its hands.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CARD W ELL—If I do not occupy at any great
length the time of the house upon this subject, it will cer-
tainly be from no want of a sincere conviction of its ex-
treme importance ; nor will it be from the least desire to
distract the attention of the house from a question so in-
teresting to the .whole community; but it will be out of a
consideration for the position in which the question has
been placed by the House of Commons itself. The late
Government with, I think, very good judgment, deter-
mined that a most careful , inquiry should be made into
the whole of the subjects connected with railways—that
inquiry is now making progress. I had not the honour of
being a member of this house at the time the house de-
cided upon appointing that committee ; but now, by virtue
of the office I have the honour to hold, it is my duty to be
in the chair of that committee, and we are taking the
utmost pains to sift and examine the whole question of the
management of railways. We have examined several per-
sons who, from their great eminence in the railway world,
are most calculated to carry weight from their experience,
and we shall proceed to examine more. We have also
examined those who, by their official connection with rail-
ways, are most competent to give us their opinions. We
have reported the evidence we have taken from time to
time, in order that the House of Commons may have the
best and fullest opportunity of judging the effect of that
evidence. Upon the particular subject of accidents very
comprehensive evidence was, a fortnight ago, laid upon the
table of the hoiise and sent to the printers. It is only de-
layed by the pressure .on the printers,. but it will shortly
be in the possession of members of this house. We have
further examined into all the recent accidents in detail,
and shall present the evidence to the house. Almost im-
mediately after I was appointed to office I sent a gentle-
man to examine what were the means employed upon the
French and Belgain railways for the purpose of avoiding
accidents. The result of that inquiry has been laid before
Parliament, and has been considered by the_committee.
The hon. gentleman who brings this motion forward has
referred to a contrivance of great importonce, in regard to
the prevention of accidents, for making a communication
between guards and drivers. We have taken evidence
upon that subject—we have a report from the "clearing
house" on that subject—and several of us have seen the in-
vention actually in the course of experiment. I think,
then, it is desirable that the House of Commons having
appointed this committee, should be in a position to con-
sider the evidence taken before it, before they commit
themselves upon this subject. (Hear.) The honourable
gentleman has also referred, particularly, to a point which
I must acknowledge to be well deserving of inquiry—that is,
to the difference there is in the law upon this subject
between different parts of the United .ngdom. Have
the committee been indifferent to that subject? When
hon. members get the report, which is now in the hands of
the printer, it will be found that the committee have taken
the evidence of the practical officers of the Boaad of Trade
upon that subject that they have had before them the
views of that very judge—a most able man, whom I have
the honour of calling my friend—to whom reference has
been made, the Lord-Justice Clerk of Scotland, for he
kindly communicated them to me, and I laid them before
the committee. My learned friend the Lord-Advocate of
Scotland has just returned from conducting a successful
prosecution under the law of Scotland against persons
guilty of culpable negligence leading to accident and loss of
life. I have applied to him to attend as a witness before
the committee, and he has engaged to do so at the earliest
possible opportunity. Certainly then we are making pro-
gress in our inquiry. Having got the opinion of the chief
criminal judge of Scotland, we shall shortly have that of-
my learned friend the Lord Advocate as to what the law is
in Scotland ; but it would be premature in us to pronounce
any opinion upon such a subject before we have heard all
the evidence. (Hear, hear.) I have here an extract show-
ing how severe the Scotch criminal law is. I will read it,
in order to show that the subject is, as it deserves to be,
under consideration, but not as passing any opinion,
because I hold we should first examine the whole case and
decide upon the evidence. At the trial referred to, the
Lord-Justice Clerk said, in summing up, that, " after the
disclosuras that had been made, it was plain that on ano-
ther such occasion it would be the parties responsible for
maintaining such a state of things that would be put at
the bar—directors or manager." That, we are told, is the
law of Scotland ; but it is not the law of England. It may
be right, or it may be wrong, that it should bo law; but
before either the committee or the House of Commons
pass any opinion upon the subject, they should thoroughly
understand the case. When the House of Commons
appointed a committee to go into these cases, and to con-
sider them, I am sure that they intended that they should
be carefully considered ; that the committee should come
prepared with their whole measure to the house, not that
they should prosecute their inquiry under the direction of
the house, or that the house should adopt some abstract
resolutions. (Hear, hear.) During the last few days we
have had a document laid before us through the public
press of great interest. tt was the result of an inquiry
which, by direction of the Congress of the United States,
has been made by a committee for the purpose of ascer-
taining how far the interference of Government is desirable
for the purpose of preventing accidents. There is a great
deal well worth reading in that report. The committee
say it is very doubtful whether a more direct interference
might not tend to increase the danger to the public, instead
of diminishing it ; and they give the following reasons :
"To divide the authority from which the regulations
necessary to effect these objects must emanate, would give
rise to confusion and embarassments, engender bad feelings
and hostility on the part of companies, take from officers
their responsibility, and might result disastrously for the
safety of the public." Then, I say, give us time to know
whether what we aro called upon to recommend will
"result disastrously for the safety to the public," before we
express any opinion. I have no objection to assume to the
Government any responsibility which will tend to promote
the public safety. I desire to say clearly and distinctly that
we do not ask for power, nor are we anxious for responsi-
bility ; yet, if by casting responsibility upon us you can
secure the safety of the public, it is your duty to cast it
upon us, and it is our duty to undertake it. Only, do it
well advised ; and do not come to a resolution to that
effect until you have read the evidence. (Hear, hear.)
The honourable gentleman who has brought forward this
subject does not impute that the very limited powers of
the Board of Trade have been neglected or improperly ex-
ercised; and I have heard him do justice to that able
public servant, Captain Simmons, to whose assiduity I can
myself bear testimony; but he complains of the state of
the law. Well, as I have said, the House of Commons
have appointed a committee which will into and report
upon -that subject. We have not been negligent in our
duty with regard to that inquiry ; but allow it to come to
a termination. Not only the committee but the Govern-
ment are giving their attention to this subject. I under-
stood the honourable gentleman to say that in bringing
forward this motion he was giving us the benefit of his ex-
perience ; but the time for making a practical motion will
be when the committee have made their report. I have
no right, however, to complain of the motion ' • but the
question now arises, how will the house deal with it ? The
honourable gentleman truly said that when he showed it
to me I could take no objection to It. That is so. Ido
not think that any more true proposition can be stated
than "that is the duty of a good Government to propose
to this house all such measures as may appear necessary
Por the public safety." I shall not dispute that. Neither
is it in my power to dispute " that the great increase in
the number of accidents which have of late occurred on
railways, demands the especial attention of this house,"
or that "it is the duty of her Majesty's Government to
propose more effectual measures than now exist for secu-
ring the safety of the public while travelling on railways."
That is certainly to do what we are doing, namely, most
carefully to assist in the examination of these matters, and
to ascertain the state of the law as it exists in different
parts of the kingdom, in order that we may obtain one
which will be effectual. It only remains, then, to consider
what is to be done with the motion. Is it respectful in
the house towards itself, or calculated to create confidence
in the public, to pass a resolution which will stand upon
our proceedings as a mere abstract resolution without any
practical consequence. (Hear, hear.) I would advise the
honourable gentleman to take the course I have just inti-
mated, because it is not usual to put on the books motions
of an abstract nature leading to no practical consequences.
If he is content to adopt that course, then it will not be
necessary for me to make any motion upon the subject ;
but if he does not, it will be my duty, with a view merely
to keeping the proceedings of the house in conformity with
the usual practice, to move the previous question. (Hear,
hear.)

Mr. JAS. M‘GREGOR said he could not allow some of the
observations of the hon. member for Tewkesbury to pass
unanswered. The honourable gentleman had taken the
ground that the directors of railways had not per-
formed their duty to the public by efficiently carrying out
the administration placed in their hands. In answer to
that, he would call attention to the precautions now used
daily over more than 7,000 miles of railway, which a few
years ago were perfectly unknown. So far as human in-
genuity could secure the safety and convenience of the
public, the whole body of men engaged in conducting the
railway traffic of the country, were devoting their atten-
tion to the subject. Fog signals, distant signals, and the
electric telegraph, all of which had only lately been
brought into use, were a proof of the assertion ; and he
asserted without fear of contradiction that such a number
of persons as now travelled upon railways were never
moved before with comparatively so few accidents.
Mr. HUME gave the honourable gentleman (Mr. M‘Gre-
gor) credit for having stated that which he believed to be
the case ; but he deemed it of importance that the whole
subject of railway management should be brought under
the consideration both of the Government and of the house.
Undue powers had been given to certain persons, and it
was the duty of the house to see that those powers
were made useful for the benefit of the public. But
after the declaration of the right honourable gentleman the
President of the Board of Trade, than which nothing could
be more satisfactory, he recommended his honourable
friend the member for Tewkesbury to withdraw the
mo-
tion, reserving, as he had, the light of bringing it on at a future time.
Mr. WADDINGTON was convinced that on this sub-
ject the right hon. gentleman the President of the Board of
Trade, in his position as chairman
of the railwayco:u-
inittee, would do all in his power to
arrive at a just and
The
fair conclusion. (Hear, hear.) hon. member, in in-
troducing the motion, had stated that the railway interest
or the directors of railways were indisposed to provide, by
every possible means for the safety of the public, and he
could not allow ghat statement.to be made without giving
it a most unqualified denial. Since the hon. gentleman
took a part in ailwa management a very different state of
things had arisen; Ind he could assure the hon gentleman
and the house from thirteen or fourteen years experienc3,
that he did not know an instance in which the Board of
Trade had made suggestions with reference to the public
safety, in which the directors had not either carried those
suggestions out, or shown the Board that it was impossible
to carry them out. With reference to the allusion which
had been made by the hon.. gentleman to an accident on the
Eastern Counties Railway, andtho report upon it, although
exception was taken to that report by the chief officers of
the railway, it had the effect of calling the attention of
every member of the board to the consequence of negligence
by a railw4 servant ; and from that time, now nearly two
years ago, nothing approaching to an accideut had occurred
on that line. Railway directors were sincerely desirous of

insuring perfect immunity, if it were possible, from these
casualties, and whenever an accident did occur, whether on
eir own line or the lines of other companies, for the
management of which they were not res ionsi . 4..._....
e same deep anxiety and regret. : ,41.M' ,: :,
should leave the matter to the committ , ':.A • ifeslrse . .-4, \
right hon. gentleman (Mr. Cardwell) p :I'e_ike. '.ll s ilisTe, rah_
that on a careful review of allthe circum-. - .. ,2 eteseesensks V -fit
present a report which would be benefi 4+,` "the railway= '• '
interest, and, at the same time, conduceve.fi the greater .1 e„,st
safety of the public. ie.:,
Mr. LAING rose for the purpose of correcting, as far as
he could, an impression which might otherwise get abroad:: .4
from the remarks of the hon. mover of the resolution, that zes 44
on the part of the railway interest, and in the mi, • ire?
railway directors, there was any disinclination to sti , r. 4
to a measure of Government control, however' st ' : ' I
which could be proved to them practically to conduce to
public safety. However much the railway interest might
justly complain of Parliament having put them to unnecs-
sary expense, when the public safety was involved every
other consideration must give way, and if any measure
were introduced with that view, there would not only be
no factious opposition from the railway interest, but rail-
way directors would be the foremost to assist in carrying
it into effect. (Hear, hear.) Independent of all considera-
tions of humanity, to which he hoped even rail way direc-
tore were not altogether lost, the pecuniary responsibility
made it apparent to common-sense that the directore were
anxious to do everything in their power to assist the Go-
vernment in any measure which should be really conducive
to the- public safety. Bat the question.involved in this
resolution, and more especially involved in the observations
of the honourable mover of it, was the extent and nature of
Government interference. He would not refer to the report
of the American committee, which contained very sound
views on this subject; but the question of Government in-
terference had already been investigated by a committee
of this house. Soon after the railway department of the
Board of Trade was first constituted, there were loud de-
mands for the most stringent Government control, and a
committee, presided over by the right hon. gentleman the
member for Taunton, at that time President of the Board
• Trade, was appointed, and the result was a complete
explosion of the potion that any amount of interference on
the part of the Government would conduce to the public
safety. It was obvious that if the Government assumed
the practical control of the working of railways, all respon-
sibility with those who had charge of their management
disappeared. Government interference might be invoked
for increasing public sofety ; but it must resolve itself into
three measures—either the Government must assume a
superintendence of minute details, which, he was satisfied,
would be attended with the worst possible consequences ;
or give such additional security to railway property that
the companies would be in a position to incur large ex-
penses in making experiments, so as to obtain the means
of insuring the greatest possible security ; or, if the present
state of the law was not efficient, make it efficient, to
bring home the responsibility to the proper parties. (Hear,
hear.) He had read, with great pleasure and satisfaction,
the recent judgment of Lord-Justice Clerk, and he
believed that was the common sense view of the subject.
He should be exceedingly happy if those principles were
the general law of the land, so that every one in all grades
of railway management might feel that, in the event of
negligence, they would be made responsible should any
accident ;occur. (Hear.) He thought it only right to
state, in confirmation of the testimony borne by the hon.
member for Sandwich, and as the result of his long expe-
rience, that a more zealous and intelligent body of men it
would be difficult to bring together than the class of offi-
cers to whom the working of railway truffle was intrusted.
He believed they were keenly alive to the responsibilities
which attached to their several situations an in the dis-
charge of their duties were deserving of ali praise. Indeed,
if it were not so, it would be absolutely impossible to con-
duct the great mass of traffic on the English railways with
even the number of accidents which was now thought to
be so large. (Hear, hear.) This led him to remark, in
comparing the accidents on English with the accidents on
foreign railways, on the greater speed and greater number
of trains in this country. In Belgium there were few ac-
cidents ; but by the Belgian trains they did not travel
much faster than by the old stage coach. (Hear, hear.)
In France there were few accidents ; and in America, until
lately, their number was very limited. The speed, com-
paratively speaking, was slow, and the number of trains
would be totally inadequate to meet the wants of an Eng-
lish community. Where in England ten or twenty trains
were run, in France or America the number was only four
or five. As the speed was increased, the number of acci-
dents increased. In a recent letter from Berlin he saw an
account of five serious accidents on the Prussian railways,
and in America the son of the President had lost his life
in as frightful a casualty as had ever been reported. (Hear,
hear.) By the last official return from the Board of Trade,
it appeared that, while the number of passengers in the
half-year ending the 30th June, 1852, was 39,249,605, only
one passenger was killed from causes beyond his own con-
trol. He did not dispute the fact that accidents had oc-
curred which ought not to have occurred, and that they
ought to be prevented by legislation, if legislation could
prevent them. But no later than the last half-year, it was
shown by an official return that, with the multiplicity of
trains, and the high rate of speed to meet the public wants
only one passenger had lost his life from causes beyond his
own control. In conclusion, he would observe, that in
common with all who were interested in the subject of rail-
way accidents, he hoped some good would result from the
committee now presided over by the President of the Board
of Trade. He did not look for that good in any exclusive
benefits to be given to railway companies, because he be-
lieved, if railway property did benefit indirectly, the
public advantage must in the first instance be consulted.
(Hear.)
Mr. H. BROWN denied that railway management had
improved of late years, and asserted that the common
question now asked at every breakfast-table was, " Are
any railway accidents reported in to-day's paper r (Hear.)
He begged to withdraw the motion.
The motion was accordingly withdrawn.
BRECON COLLEGE.
Mr. GOULBURN, in moving for leave to introduce a
bill for the future regulation, management, and permanent
endowment of the Calm et Christ, in Brecon, explained
that the management' or. ecclesiastical endowments, in
deaneries in which Brecon was included, devolved upon
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and in 1845 their atten-
tion was directed to the nature of the property and the
obligations of the trust of the College of Brecon. It ap-
peared that the original constitution was under a charter
of as early a date as the thirteenth century, confirmed in
the reign of King Henry VIII. The college was to bo
established for the encouragement of letters and divinity,
and extending the benefits of education throughout that
portion of the principality of Wales. From the antiquity,
of the grants, there were difficulties in the way of ascer-
taining the precise purpose of the donors, and the extent
of the property applicable to the collegiate and ecclesiasti-
cal part of the establishment, and with a view to deter-
mine those questions some gentlemen at Brecon proposed
to file a bill in Chancery. Upon examination it clearly
appeared that, from the number of parties to the suit,
nearly the whole of the property would be expended.
That being a course which it was not advisable to pursue,
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners proposed a compromise,
and by mutual consent it was agreed that a bill should be
brought into Parliament to give effect to an arrangement
by which the ecclesiastical management devolved upon the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners, 'and by which a permanent
endowment of sufficient amount was assigned to the colle-
giate or school establishment, and a college would be esta-
blished at Brecon calculated to fulfil in every respect the
purposes of the original charter. It was in conformity
with that arrangement that he proposed to introduce the
bill of which he had given notice. The subject was one of
considerable complications, and he thought it better to
defer any explanation of the details until the house should
have had an opportunity of seeing the bill itself. It was
enough for him to state that in the proposed scheme sub-
mitted to their approbation, the rules and ordinances by
which the college would be governed were fully set forth.
He was glad to be able to add, that when the present
leases fell in, an amount of property would devolve on the
c Togo establishment worthy of the monarch by whom it
otfh teh e a
dvan principality was founded, and that an institution would be established
en t owfhilecthterswoulandd be highly
in that
ivpeartto
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME thought more information should be given
before any further proceedings on this bill took place, to
satisfy the house that the scheme proposed would be of
the greatest possible utility to the community, and carry
out the will of the donor to the greatest possible advantage.
He should object to any new clerical establishment, till he
saw how far the funds were applied to the community at
large, for whom he understood they were originally in-
tended. (Hear, hear.)
Sir B. HALL said the object of the bill, as he understood
it, was to make that useful which had hitherto been useless,
and to apply funds which ought long since to have been ap-
plied to the education of the people. As an inhabitant of that
part of the country, and knowing something of the circum-
stances, he was very much obliged to the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners for having turned their attention at last to
this establishment, and he hoped ample time before the
second reading would be given to enable the residents in
the principality to master the contents of this measure.
The property belonging to this establishment was of enor-
mous extent. He believed the property was worth nearly
8,0001. a year, and the house would hear with some sur-
prise, that although this 8,0001. a year had been enjoyed
by somebody—not by the laity—a short time ago there was
hardly a boy in the school ; and from 1839 down to a very
recent period, not a single prayer had been offered up in
that place of worship. The building had been used by
those who had charge of it for the most improper purposes,
and during fairs horses had been taken in to stand, and a
charge made for the accommodation. If the funds had
been properly applied there might not have been so much
ignorance in that part of the principality, as those funds
were amply sufficient for the educational as well as the
ecclesiastical-purposes. A short time since there was hardly
a pane of glass in
the building, the water was •
running
through the roof, and sheep were in the prebendal stalls
and
at the altar. It was altogether in a most disgraceful
state, and Sir Thomas Phillis, a gentleman who '
had taken
great' interest in the matter, had published a book, in okon which
he said, "the college of Brecon •
abuse which existed. in the appropriation
combined almost every
of ecclesiastical opert.
The and management
urc as
h w not kept in re-
pair. No lectures or sermons
were performed.. The college
were delivered, and no ser-
vicesbuilding, was so dilapidated that
church, a handsome
fallen in, had not a layman that the roof would have
the colleg( made the necessary who received his education at
had not been performed in ; and public worship
in i -since 1839." The property,
as he had said
laity i , was worth 7,500/. or 8,000/. a year. The
had not enjoyed it. Somebody must have *
enjoyed it.
(Hear, hear.) By the act of 1836, all the bishops were to
have certain fixed incomes, and the Bishop of St. David's
was to have 4,500 a year. His predecessor sent in an ac-
count of the income of the see, by which it was proved to
be 1,600/. less than 4,503/. a year, and therefore 1,600/. a
year was paid by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to the
Bishop of St. David's to make up the supposed deficiency.
That deficiency did not exist, as the income of a prebendal
stall was more than 1,600/. a year. The reason he had
alluded to this was that the Bishop of St. Pa lid's happened
to be dean and treasurer of this collegiate church, and the
property of this collegiate establishment formed a portion
of his income to the extent of 3001. or 400/. a year, for
which he performed no duty whatever. He wished the
right hon. gentleman would tell them whether there had
been an communication with the Bishop of St. David's
as to giving up the money he received over and above the
income assigned to the see, and particularly that portion
for which he did nothing whatever. (Hear.)
Mr. AGLIONBY thought further information should
be laid on the table of the house. It would be still snore
valuable if the Ecclesiastical Commissioners accompanied it
with some report of their own on the necessity of the bill,
and any correspondence which had passed between them
and the bishop of the diocese.
Mr. GOULBURN still thought the bettor course was to
postpone detailed explanations. The preamble stated the
general facts, and if any explanation was desired there
would be no difficulty in affording information of the
grounds on which the Ecclesiastical Commissioners thought
it better to forego a suit in Chancery, which would absorb
the whole of the property. The honourable member for
Marylebone seemed to represent to the house that the pro.