The Sun.
London, England, 1854-07-18 00:00:00

Government, they were bound to have made .up their
•- • , - _ .- - -
mind in what manner they would arealginisife. cen.-..„,
solidate the six different branches of-our milita -fotifts It
Coin:
and the authorities by whom they mere Aifeeteffi
_,..this
tie,
remind the house that this was by flo mearrs! •411140-41112. ject, but one to which the attention of Govimmentlaiideai,.. l''''',
liament had at different times been-Aireited.f ~'lyekille_
,h111,:,":'
lord had reminded them of the fact hatee loil vesse*JMPV,•--
the Duke of Richmond held office 'n the inVieeef • +
of Earl Grey, a commission was ap intedeon ies , -4,./
of which the noble lord was a member`, and-lietia
also to the 'Commission subsequently appted i-4 ltrllek.
voretli,
which Earl Grey, then Lord Howick, and SeEretathast
War, officiated at chairman, and of which the noble land
as well as the noble viscount at the head of the Home de..
partment were members. That commission made a very
elaborate report in the year 1837, recommending that the
anomalous state of things to which he had adverted should
be abolished, that the Commander-in-Chief and Master•
General of the Ordnance should continue to discharge the
functions pertaining to the strictly military branch of
their offices, but that the civil duties of the•varlet:mdse.
partments should be consolidated, that the Secretary at
War should have a seat in the Cabinet as the responsible
minister in that house, though not a Secretary of State;
should be transferred also,
bifbe
rece t
recollected
the new department,drightly,thatecommissariatand
taksa.
away from the Treasury. The noble lord had told theist
that, in consequence of certain objections of the. Duke
oat,.
but Wellington, those recommendations were not earn t, ,
the commission, and, having concurred
mad*.
but he had not told them that he
rredhad
in
eeinte a
report,mene 01.12,21.0
he now dissented from the recommendations then
m.
Neither had the noble lord adverted to the fact, not uiii___
portant as bearing on this question, that in the year
e1338,PU
a committee of that house was appointed to inquirw_i
tto
the details of the army and ordnance expenditure,
mita,
was selected with great care, and contained members
s
cue
oirnmpeetmber
enttoftehr T
edeitsnchesarkenrodf theirseym duties,
etihnegnehsobilere_lieg.
They restated in their report the recommendations of_ta.
committee of 1837, and declared their conviction that thew
should be acted upon. Here was a third recent and cent':
patent authority which recorded its opinion that the cite
ing anomalies should be removed, and the inconvenience*
of the present system corrected ; but to the report
of that
committee the noble lord had made no reference whatevel
He certainly had felt very great surprise that with a war
hanging over us, with almost the certainty that as soon *1
Parliament met we should find ourselves embarked in IP
serious and too probably protracted contest, the Govern*
went had not directed their attention to this subject dui..
ing the leisure of the recess, in order that they might be
prepared when Parliament met, to present a complete
scheme for the consolidation of the different departments
connected with the management of the army. After Par-
liament met, of course the unsatisfactory state a Our
military administration became the subject of comment
in both houses. It was brought under the notice of the
other house by a noble earl, and was brought forward •in
that house by the hon. member for Montrose. In that
debate, the right hon. gentleman the Secretary-at-War
made a speech contending that, in spite of the anemones
complained of, the existing state of things ought to con-
tinue ; and after quoting some opinions of Lord Grey, he
said :—" If Lord Grey thinks there is a time when no
alterations should be made a fortiori, the present is a mo-
ment when, in my opinion at least, it would be dangerous
to make such a change as that proposed by my hon. friend*
—namely, that there should be a change in the management
of the army, and a consolidation of the different branches
of the service. "At any time, continued the right hon.
gentleman, " I think you ought to proceed step by step, bat
at this moment I do not believe you could undertake a more
have the greatest pressure
t to e n te r on a seri-
ous contest, and when you w
rash experiment than when you
avuahreau
on your energies and resources from being engaged in a hot
_ _
war." The noble lord (Lord J. Russell) also remarked,
" My right hon. friend has explained the great difficulty and
i n co n lenience that would arise from attempting to carry into
effect a new organisation of the departments at a moment
when they are all required to make the utmost .exertions
in the preparation of the expedition now on its way to the
to the East. Instead of being a great public convenience,
I believe it would be a great public inconvenience, if the
carrying out of these arrangements were to be transferred
to any other department." In that debate it was an-
nonnced that all the Government intended to do was, to
add a new secretary in the colonial department, consider-
ing the pressure of business. He confessed he yielded to
the force of the argument then used, and ho thought the
prudent course of the Government was to go on with the
existing state of things, adding, however, another -Under-
Secretary of State for the Colonial Department, until the
recess should enable them to address themselves to the
whole subject, with the view of laying some definite plan
before Parliament at the commencement of the next ses-
sion. It was, however, with some surprise that he learned,
during the Whitsuntide holidays, that the Government
had determined to establish a new department, with a
Secretary of State at the, head of it. He thought that the
original opinions of the t toble lord (Lord John Russell) on
this subject were wiser th an those which ho subsequently
adopted. It would have been far better, in his judgment,
if the noble lord had deferred, until this session was over;
any fresh arrangement. EL,' thought that would have been
a better and a wiser plan the ii to come as he now did, with
an imperfect proposal, establishing a new department, end
a new Secretary of State, with out having determined, ex-
cept in-one single respect, what the duties of that new de-
partment and that new Secretary of State were to be.
(Hear.) He did not understand the noble lord to express
any decided opinion that the mana&nernent of barracks and
fortifications was to be transferred to the new department,
or that the Government had made up its mind in any re-
spect as to what the duties of this new' department were
to be, except that the commissariat was to be trans-
ferred to the new Secretary of State. But that which
must have struck the country most was, that which ap-
peared to him to be, at this moment, the .anomalous posi-
tion of the Secretary at War. (Cheers from the Opposi-
tion.) The country must have been surprised to find that,
when the Government had so far matured their opinions
as to make up their minds to the creation of a new depart.
ment and a new Secretary of State, the Secretary at War
was to continue in existence at the head of an important
public department, and still to be a Cabinet Minister.
(Hear, hear.) What authority did the noble lord find for
that in any one of the reports to which he had referred ?
Ile (Sir John Pakington) knew of no recommendation
which had contemplated the simultaneous existenee of a
War Minister in the Cabinet, and a Secretary of War in
the Cabinet. (Hear, hear.) That anomalous state of
affairs, he thought, was the strongest proof that could have
been afforded that the Government, from some motive or
other--he could not venture to say what the influence
might be—had changed their opinions, and their intended
mode of action. For some reason or other it seemed to
have been thought desirable to add a new Minister to the
Cabinet during the Whitsuntide recess; and now, to his
(Sir John Pakington's) extreme surprise, they were about
to vote this KIM of money for the establishment of a new
department and a new Secretary of State, whose duties
were not defined, and whose duties it was clear the Go-
vernment themselves had not determined upon. (Hear,
hear.) He thought the house bad great reason to feel dis-
satisfied with this most unsatisfactory state of things. He
thought they had a right to some explanation' as to the
difference of the duties of the Secretary of State for War
and of the Secretary at War, both of them being Cabinet
Ministers ; and he should sit down in the hope that they
should have some explanation of what the views of the
Government were, more satisfactory and more full than
that which had been afforded by the noble lord the Presi-
dent of the Council. (Cheers from the Opposition.)
Mr. S. HERBERT—I am afraid that that state of re•
gret, surprise, and astonishment in which the right hon.
baronet usually finds himself—(a laugh)—at estate of things
to which ho cannot give his consent, will not be, and can-
not be, relieved by anything that I have to address to the
committee ; but I hope I shall be able to make clear to the
great body of the committee what are the intentions of the
Government, and to defend the course taken by the Go-
vernment, which has been so impugned by the right bon.
baronet. He is surprised that we, who so short a time ago
expressed opinions diametrically opposed to making any
change in the military departments, should now suddenly
propose to make a complete reconstruction of those depart-
ments. Tho right hon. baronet quoted from memory one
or two extracts from a speech that I had made on this
subject, in order to show that I at least had expressed an
opinion in favour of a perfect system. I think the cum-
mittee will do me the justice to believe that at the Lime
when we before discussed this question there was no want
of frankness on my part in stating my opinions on the sub-
ject. I have held my present office in the Government on
two separate occasions, and having turned my attention, a
good deal to this subject, I thought it would be imper-
ithenot of
tinent in me, though not speaking
with
outline ofauthority
defects what ap-
peared to me were the principalofthe existing
the Government, to
and of the measures which seemed necessary to re•
system, Now, it is quite true that I had
spoken 'those defects. ,
give a genera
spoken in reprobation of thearguments used for a con-
solidation of the military departments, grounded on the
misunderstandings which had arisen between the dif-
ferent military and civil officers at the commencement
of the present century. Now, a great deal of public
feeling has been excited upon this subject which is en-
tirely uncalled for. We have great difficulties to con-
tend with in dealing with these departments ; and I say
ttiot
ethat
anecdotes—(a
buts( leta i,
nugsh first)_ in got
whichrid
,
01 eft
all
tahpepsley
porue r.Ase
dl vaems
occasion
ii
inaoirrnipeyeNvwsaeaorsini
arising
hnhtigosa
inirn(oi indulge,
azgvniedy,h,butWhat
I which
meant are
t e intimatewholly
that
dsiosafgarreefmroemathb
between
abeing h nowthe
a
mili-
tary and civil departments, that had passed
that I was alive to the inconveniences of the present butsys-
tem. The Commander-in-Chief has not that knowledge
of what is being done by the Ordnance department which
I think is exceedingly desirable For example, a fortifi-
cation may be made in any part of the island, and that
fortification when made, may be disapproved of by the
Commander-in-Chief. I think that is a great evil. You
have there the separate action of two departments of great
importance, uncontrolled by any superintending authority.
You may, however, consolidate departments, and they
may become inefficient from over-consolidation. I am not,
indeed, at all certain in respect to the efficiency of the
Ordnance department that you are not suffering from over-
consolidation rather than the want of it. What you most
want is, not so much the consolidation of the different de-
partments, but one supervising authority, with a view to
make all of them actin harmonious combination. (Cheers-)
I said at that time that it appeared to me the
of our troops in the field and at home by a dephaarttm
which has, practically, nothing at all to do with t
t in reference to
sub-
ject, but which has a great deal to do with i
in
principie.
the cash supplies for carrying it on, was wrongils a depart-
I think the department of the treasury,.w.
jarrative depart-
ment of check, but which is not an salve
'not that kind; and
ment, should not be intrusted with a duty provisioning
riat should be
ualitarY departments. I
removed from the Treasury to the
the Ordnance might be di.
I suggested that the direction of the porn. miss.%
have expressed my opinion thatnow,
indeed. M•a sense di-
vided into two portions.
They are governed by the same
the military department.
There is, therefore, a
in the same manner.
it.
sr": saftetrerre, dwteo
shhialbal
find
is,
wil.
man, but not
two portions of the department of
vided into two portions; fiotr itshere is the l sod there is
distinction between the
the Ordnance; but whether the Commander-in-chief should.
have
question for consideration. I have n'o doubt,
when a grave
erths
when we come
e sound and valid reasons for that opinion.
there are some
My own impression was that the Commander-in-Chief was
the artillery
to
gaondfutrhteheernginintoe.
the proper person to have the direction and command of
the whole personnel of the army, including the artillery and
engineers, and that there should be left to the Ordnance
only the civil department, or that which dealt with the
great subjects of clothing, stores, and the like. Thatmight
be open to misunderstanding; but that it should have been
misinterpreted by the right hon. baronet as being a coin•
plete adhesion to the existing system, does, I confess, in-
spire me with some of those feelings of surprise with,which
he appears on this occasion to be oppressed. (Hear.) The
right hon. baronet says the GoTernment ought to baTlboa