The Sun.
London, England, 1853-08-17 00:00:00

se
keys s
discussed with were a rayah—that-is, a Christiate Jec ( +,n® , nothing to say to the Minister*. Tdo not' bla e them be-
Porte
• anli t lf +'
should prefer a Russian or any other Govern ro ent cause they have taken up 9, position to defend the Turkish
rather'that- tilh aln a Mahomedan one. (Hear, hear, and mar. - aof empire. It is a traditionary policy they have followed,
dissent.) Ido not say but that the hon. member for I 'on- and unless they had public opinion with them, no Govern-
tefract, who has travelled in Turkey and in Egypt, vt ould i mont could avoid doing so. All I say is, t I have no
not find himself a great deal freer man in either of ' ;,hose I doubt they will soon get rid of the difficulties respecting
countries than in Russia. But it would be a very cliff erent . the Wallachian provinces ; and I congratulate them on
thing if he were to become a resident in the East, to]. nount having been as peaceable as the people would allow them
toofbethpelarcoerdtein. thle
admit
tie iiii,
ioef
aa to be.
p(Cheers.)
RSTON—I cannot allow the speech of the
thera
matteryah badgeoro f
opinion,
would not prefer the Russian to the Mahomeds en rule. hon. member who has just sat down to pass without one or
but it is an open question whether they
Cihnr Christian aciaaps'ubajne subject
All I wish to urge is this, that that is a questio re which two observations, and I cannot accept the praise which, in
we must entertain. We are not taking the usureio -which his conclusion, he has given to the conduct of the Govern-
willment on the grounds on which he has been pleased to place
we ensure uoraer r
y Turkishthe great
d ebulkpen independence c
tehe of
population
w ei ine s.. ,
Thu nr -. .
it. Nothing is more painful than to see a man of great
knows to be contrary to the opinions of his their wishes at present. The question ought to be more ability labouring under an internal conviction which he
poonbvtitosuasll,tahnaat
itw ewiclalnprrioetss
uscuopi,i:icler
fellow-country-
still more—it will hamper the Government in all their men, and f •
prelstsesisu
a raid—l do not wish to use a stronger term—
;uist.
negotiations, especially on the question of resisting force afraid
by force. It may be possible for a time, if you will, to openly to express it, but cloaking it under every
undertake to say how the eastern part of Europe shall be specious device which the ingenuity of his practised ora-
governed, but in the end we must go further, and from a tory can afford. The hon. gentleman states
consideration of the wishes of the people themselves we with every one who has spoken before him. He agrees with
must undertake to say who shall permanently govern the everybody at the beginning of his speech, and he ends by
Turkish empire. That is a question on which I' dare say
the hon. member for Aylesbury would be able greatly to differing from them all on every point. (Hear, hear.) The
enlighten us, and to tell us what the tendencies of the hon. member
began by
Wallachians—what the tendencies of the Servians—what that we ought to maintain the independence of Turkey,
the tendencies of the Greeks may be ; it is difficult for us and to prevent
Russia from taking possession of her pro-
to know them all, but of this I am quite sure, that we vinces;
shall have our hands full if we undertake to deal with this but, in the course of his speech, he used every ar-
question as it ought to be dealt with. As to sending our gument his ingenuity could urge to show that Turkey was
fleet to the Bay of Besika, and keeping the Ruisians out not worth defending* (Cheers.) If the hon. gentleman
as
Of Constantinople,—that you may do, no doubt. Russia had stood forward the
avowed advocate of the aggressive
has always avoided a collision with ,a maritime power. She and ambitious policy of Russia—if he had stood forward as
has avoided it with America—she has avoided it with
England—because in such a collision all the illusion re- the defender of that policy which he pretends to denounce
specting her greatness would be dispelled at once. But in and condemn—l do not think, in the present state of feel-
the meantime yon are keeping up an enormous armament, ing of the house and the country,
he could have dared to
which does not tend to settle the question—you are induc- pursue a course more
extenuating, and more calculated to
ing the Turkish Government to prepare for war, which will
assist that policy, than he has done. (Hear, hear.) I
bring ruin and bankruptcy on her finances—you are there-
by placing Turkey in a more feeble and prostrate condition never heard a speech so full of self-contradictions. At one
than she was in before. I have no doubt the Government moment Russia was—he did not tell us, as he once told
will prevent a war, but the question will not be settled; it the country, that Russia could be crumpled up like a sheet
will come up again ; and you must therefore address your- of paper—but brownhe told
she
was
selves, as men of sense and men of energy, to the question
—what are you to do with the Christian population ? for incapable of resisting any serious effort of this
Mahomedanism cannot be maintained, and, what is more, country ; and in the next moment he tells us that war with
I should be sorry to see this country fighting for the main- Russia would be fraught with infallible ruin to England.
tenauce of Mahomedanism. I never could get up any zeal How does he reconcile
these two statements? At one time
on behalf of the Mahomedans ; they keep the plague—they he tells us
that Russia is a barbarous power, scattered in her
keep slavery—they have a bazaar for the sale of black and
white slaves. You may keep Turkey on the map of Europe; territories and weak in her internal administration ; then
you may call the country by the name of Turkey if you he launches out in praise of St. Petersburg, and because St.
like, but do not think you can keep up the Mahomedan Petersburg is a finer city than
Constantinople, therefore
rule in that country. A great deal has been said about the Russia must possess both. (Laughter and cheers.) The
necessity of -maintaining the independence of Turkey on hon.gentleman is a Free-trader ;in that capacity he made
account of her commerce. Now, as a Free-trader, I must
. the tour of Europe, and being received with that courtesy
once for all enter my protest against fighting fora market
at all. I never would consent to fight for a low tariff. In and civility which his personal qualities so well entitled
the first place,_ I deny that you could do so. You fought him to, he fancied that he
for a tariff in Spain, and after spending 209 or 300 millions Europe to abandon
their former systems in favour of free
of money in keeping Spain out of the hands of an enemy
who would have excluded your commerce, you accomplished trade. The hon. gentleman says that the efforts of this
your object, and Spain and Portugal repaid your exertions country in favour of unrestricted tariffs have signally failed.
by enacting the most restrictive tariffs in Europe. You I should like to know what was the result of his European
occupied Sicily during the whole of the last war ; and tour. But, si •r, we never made wars for tariffs ; our wars
when you left it, what sort of tariff was enacted for your
were waged for the liberties of Europe, and not for the
manufactures ? (Hear, hear.) In the next place, I have
too much faith in my principles to go to war for them. I tariffs of commerce ;we waged war for the liberties and
believe that free- trade principles will spread and make independence of nations, and for
the balance of power,
converts by means of peace. We are making converts which the hon. gentleman sneers at, because he does not
every day by the proofs we are affording of the salutary seem
to understand it—(laughter)—but which all well-in-
and striking benefits of free trade. (Hear.) Therefore
do not talk of war as a means of removing restrictions, or formed persons feel to be essential to the liberty and well-
of opening markets. Besides, the noble lord is under a being of mankind. The hon. gentleman, with all his free-
great delusion as to the accounts of our commerce with trade partialities—and no man has been
more assiduous cr
Turkey. The returns for which he moved, and on which more
he earnest in the enforcement of that principle than he
are rsent most of elies, are the rthem to Austeturns of exp orts tup
the Danube. o the Black Sea, wlt is hich '
has been—l should be the last to withhold from him any
not Turkish commerce. Constantinople is a mere depot tribute of admiration for his great services in this respect—
from whence our goods are sent to Trebizond and elsewhere but he entirely forgot those principles when he drew a com-
-there is very little consumption of our commerce in the parison between the commercial systems of Russia and
dominions of Turkey. Though I have no partiality for iurkey. Does he not know—and if he does know, why
Russia—on the contrary, lam not sorry to see the great does he attempt to withdraw the attention of the public
representative of the despotic principle humiliated and dis- from the fact—that the commercial system of Russia is
honoured by the mean plottings and contrivances which he strictly prohibitory, and that the commercial system of
has carried on through the whole of these transactions; yet, Turkey is as liberal as that of any country with which we
let us not delude ourselves with any idea of danger result- have commercial relations ? He says that it is immaterial,
ing to this country from Russian ascendancy. I maintain in a commercial point of view, whether the Turkish empire
that all the commerce we have on the Black Sea is owing belongs to Russia or not, for we had no commerce in the
Black Sea till Russia
to Russian invasion. We never had any commerce in thegot possession of the Crimea. Sir, I
Black Sea until Russia took possession of the Crimea. never heard an argument that was less relevant. It is not
What is the fear, then, that Russia would exclude our true that the commerce of Turkey is immaterial to this
commerce if she were to retain the province ? We need country. It is very material. Turkey has many natural
not fear but that Russia will be as glad to send as her corn products that are essential to our mannfactures, and her
then as she is now. Take the case of Russia on the other mineral and natural resources are every year becoming more
side of Europe—take our trade with Russia in the Baltic. valuable. Ah, but, says the honourable member, you are
Our exports, indeed, are not large, because Russia has fol- under a deception—you look to the returns which are on
lowed the example we set her, and placed restrictions upon the table of the house, and which are made out as if all
our manufactures, as we 30 or 40 years ago placed restric- the exports went to Turkey, whereas the fact is they all
tions on her produce. But still for the native produce we go through Turkey. Now I ask the honourable gentle-
do take from her we pay her in sugar and other articles. I man, who thinks that these exports go through Turkey,
therefore discard the idea altogether that Russia will dis- whether they would be allowed to go through Russia?
courage our trade. What, on the other hand, is the pros- (Cheers.) Whether Turkey consumes them herself, or whe-
pect of our trade with Turkey? It is a country without awed. her she. acts as the channel through which they pass, still
b
You cannot go three miles out of Constantinople, or any it is eqully to the advantage of our commerce, and it be-
ef' the large towns, except on horseback. Constantinople comes, therefore, of great importance to England that
has iso pavement—it has no lamps—it has no scavengers Turkey should remain an independent state. The hon.
except the dogs; it has not a building of stone or brick. gentleman is a great advocate of the principle of non-inter-
It is known as an historical fact, in the flowery language ference i and he has frequently said, "Do not you inter-
of Burke, that the Turks have been a curse and a bligtt, meddle in the affairs of other nations ; especially do not
wherever they have come. Ido not defend Russia, but do dictate to them what form of government they are to
not let us suppose that they will refuse to trade with us. adopt." But what is the matter that he has now especially
Go to St. Petersburg—a city that may vie with London— committed to the deliberation of tle Government and to
a city that has all the splendour and magnificence of Paris, the future consideration of Parliament? Why it is—what
with a river twice the breadth of the Thames running are we to do with the Turkish empire ? how are we to dis-
through it. Let any man go to St. thornPetersbu to Mos- pose of the destinies of the Mahomeclans, the Greeks, and
cow, and then let him go to Constantinople, the oe built the other races that inhabit it ? He taunts us by telling
on the most favoured situation on the face of the earth, us, " You are patching up a rickety building; you yield
the other in the midst of every disadvantage, and yet see to the ignoble and vulgar prejudices which have been
the contrast. Constantinople is, as an American traveller handed down to you by tradition ; but the fabric cannot
has said, a city of boxes, with lids that are open all day last—it will fall to pieces—the Sultan must be expelled
and shut at night. (Laughter.) Do not deceive yourselves from Europe—the Sultan, the army, and the two or three
and pretend that we are the natural allies of such a coun- millions of Turks who are now encamped in it ; it is high
try for the purpose of trade. I protest against the argu- time that England were considering how she will dispose
ment that it is for the interest of England, or that we are of those territories, when relieved from the blighting pre-
bound to maintain Turkey in possession of those rich and "nee of the Moslem." Strange doctrine this, from a per-
fertiler territories. There may be other political reasons, son who maintains the necessity of leaving foreign coun-
but I object to facts being brought forward which have no tries to decide on their own form of government. (Cheers.)
foundation, in order to mislead the English people in re-
But I do not admit that the Turkish empire is inthat state
gard to their true interests. These points must be deve-
of decay which he represents it to be in, or that the
loped—they must be reasoned upon—they must be dwelt
maintenance of the independence of Turkey is an object
which cannot be successfully attained. The honourable
on for the next few ye it will lead to war ears. The present question may
be settled—l do not expect that gentleman wholly mispresents the state of Turkey during
the last 30 years. I assert, without fear of contradiction
—I do not find any sensible people who ever did ex-
pect that. (Hear, and laughter.) A great deal has been from any man who knows the subject, that Turkey, far
said about the power of Russia, and about the danger from going backward during the last 30 years, has made
to England if Russia were allowed to occupy the countries greater improvement than most other countries during
of the Bosphorus. I never shared that opinion. I wrote the same time. Compare Turkey now with what she
upon that question eighteen years ago, at a time when was in the reign of Sultan Mahmoud—take either her
people were much madder upon the question than they system of government or the prosperity of her inhabit-
are now—when the predecessor of the hon. member for ants—take her army—take her navy—take her admi-
Birnaingham was crying out night after night for a war nistration of j ustice—take the prosperity of her agriculture
with Russia. I had travelled in that country, and I ex- —take her improvements in such manufactures as she has
pressed my opinion—an opinion which all the recent —take her commercial system—take her religious tolera-
events have only tended to confirm—that it was absurd to tion—l say, that in all these respects Turkey has made
talk of Russia invading England. Why, she cannot move immense progress during the period which I have men-
an army to her own frontiers, except by the aid of foreign tioned. So far from going along with the hon. gentleman
gold. I said so not long since in the City, that she could in that sort of political slang—(cheers)—in which it is the
not make any aggressive movement, except by the aid of
fashion of certain parties to denounce Turkey—so far from
an English loan ; and nine months afterwards I attended talking of her as a dead body, or as one about to expire,
in the same room in the city, to denounce a loan of six and which cannot be kept alive, lam convinced that if we
millions, which was about to be raised under the pretence can only keep out those who wish to get in—(loud cheers)
that it was for the Moscow railroad. I had seen it myself —if we leave those who are in to deal with her affairs ac-
nearly six months before, and it was then nearly finished • cording to the way they are now dealing with them—l
so that it was absurd to talk of the loan being intended venture to say that, so far as the seeds of internal clissolu-
for that scheme. The country is poor and thinly popu- tion are concerned, there is not a country with which
lated—it is a mere series of villages ; how could it in- Turkey will not bear a favourable comparison, and that
jure England or France? It may possess Turkey, be- she is likely to go on and to improve, if we can only keep
cause Turkey is in a state of decay, and when a country the hands of other people off her. Turkey, it must be re-
falls into decrepitude, its next neighbour will be sure to membered, has no Poland and no Circassia to distract her.
take it if he can. I repudiate the notion of Russia in- (Cheers.) lam bound to say that, if ever I heard a speech
vading England. But what has been done, and by Eng-
which was likely to discourage the Government in the
course of policy which they have been pursuing—if ever I
land, towards such of the Mahomedan powers as we are
neighbours to in India? We have not been a whit less heard a speech which was likely to damp the zeal of the
unscrupulous in our diplomacy towards them than Russia country in support of the Government, it is the speech of
has been to Turkey, and especially in the way that, within the honourable gentleman. lam happy to say it is the
the last two years, we have dealt with Burmah. But only speech of the kind we have heard to-night, and I only
however Russia may deal with Turkey, Ido not see what trust it will not mislead persons beyond the limits of this
right we have to interfere with a matter so far removed country as it might mislead them. (Cheers.) I hope the
from us. I believe that England would be ready to resist language we have heard will not excite abroad a feeling
which would tend to mar the
efforts of the Government to
an attack from whatever quarter it might come, and that
Bent this question satisfactorily. I trust, rather, that the
she would be ten times more powerful to resist than Russia,
to attack. All the resources that we have in our vast ma-
sonmeennts
ofdfeelings which the general tone of the
nufactures—all the appliances that we possess in our pro- c"
whole worlddiscussion
athis,
evening
has shown will prove to the
digious steam-vessels, and in our mechanical skill, would _ what are the sentiments of the British Parlia-
ment, and what is the fixed determination of the British
be turned in six months—ay, in six days—to the contriv-
na ion--(c
toeers)----and that thcugh there may be persons
ance of engines of destruction which would render us more t
powerful than any other nation on the face of the earth. who
notwish. see Russia extended to Turkey, yet that is
the wish of the British nation, and that the Govern-
All these are wanting in Russia ; they must come here for
inept and the Parliament are determined to maintain the
their steam-boats, or for the artisans to make them, and
thependence of a country which we think it is important
there is not a chance of their insuring us. But while I say a
should be maintained in its independence both political
word to those members who repre-
this, let me address a
and commercial. Cheers
sent the manufacturing districts—let me give them a word . ( .1 We do not mean to go with
occupy if war were the hon. gentleman into a rearrangement of the Turkish
of advice as to the position we should 're • we do not attempt to dictate to barbarians, or
eves, or Greeks, or Mussulmans, who shall be the go-
casion would be such as those who only remember the war °'
vernors, or what shall be tiheir form of government. It has
that commenced sixty years ago can have no conception
been the policy of her Majesty's Government to give such
I of. In the first place, we have a vast increase in material
advice to the Turkish Government, with a view to the in-
wealth, and that wealth has greatly increased our menu-
tenni, improvement of that country, as, while it may on
facturing population. Where we had one man dependent
the one hand add to the strength of the Turkish empire,
upon the raw materials supplied by foreign countries in
may, on the other hand contribute to the happiness and
1793, we have twenty-five men now. Where we had
30,000,000 0r40,000,000 of exports then, we have 80,000,000 prosperity of the people under the rule of the Sultan.
or 90,000,000 now. Let me tell my friends the members (Hear.) lam glad to say that those endeavours have been
for the manufacturing towns, who talk so glibly of war attendeil with most beneficial consequences, and that
that while I agree with them that in a war to defend wherever our consular arrangements have been extended in
this kingdom England would bring all her resources to the Turkish empire we have seen tranquillity increased,
bear, and would defend herself against all the world, yet justice better administered, oppression cease, and those
I say that if England were to go further, and to engage in benefits conferred which it must be the anxious object of
a continental war, you do not know what belligerents you the English Government to promote in every country where
might have in six months after its declaration. (Hear.) vice may be considered worthy of attention. (Hear.)
A war now would be attended with consequences of which Ism convinced that if that system be pursued, and if
the present generation little think, or they would not talk England, united with France, shall say that Turkey shall
of it so glibly. In the first place, you would have the not la
molested by any other power, their dictum will be
Americans, whose country was a mere infant in 1793, and enforced, lam satisfied that Turkey has within itself
to whom we could then say, " You shall come to no part the elements of life and prosperity, and I believe that the
in Europe except by our permission," and we could seize course adopted by her Majesty's Government is a sound
their ships and press their crews at our pleasure. Now, if Policy, deserving the approbation of the country, and
war were to break out, what would be the first thing we u
which it will be the duty of every British Government to
should be called upon to do ? Why, we should be called Pursue. (Cheers.)
upon by the Americans to disavow the right of search. Mr. H. D. SEYMOUR thought it would he seen from
We could not refuse that, and that concession would place this debate that the spirit of the British people was not
America at once as our rival in the carrying trade of dormant, but that they were prepared to support those
Europe. And, remember, you have now repealed your Ministers who took an active part in repressing wanton
navigation laws. In 1793 you could send out large fleets aggression. He regretted that the moral influence of this
of merchant ships, under the ()envoy of ships of war, twice country had been very much weakened by our conduct in
a year. You had the monopoly of the seas • and it did not the East, for he thought we had taken exactly the con-
matter to you when or how your ships smiled; because other trary course to that adopted by the Romans ; we had at-
countries must wait upon you for their supplies. But tacked the weak on the simplest grounds ; for instance,
what would be the case now, if you were to go to war? we had annexed Burmah because a petty officer was kept
If you were engaged in war with a maritime power, they waiting for half an hour in the sun ; Ovhile, on the other
would issue letters of marque to fleets of steamers, who hand, we forbore from any interference with powerful na-
could take refuge when they pleased in Stockholm or other tions which had committed the most wanton aggressions.
neutral ports. Your insurances for freights would rise As ho understood, in the memorandum which had been
addressed to Russia by her Majesty's Government, there
at Lloyd's in proportion to the risk of capture. How
was no reference to the great aggression of that power
would your manufacturers—how would your numerous
her entrance into the principalities. He was glad that
and wealthy colonies consent to bring over their freights
the Ministry contained a nobleman of proper English
in English bottoms, when Hamburgers and Frenchmen
spirit, who, he was certain, would not cotiaent to swede
were not subject to the same risk? Remember that
a member of any Adminheretion unless a policy were fol-
the repeal of the navigation laws has thrown you open to
the competition of the whole world io shipping, as in every- lowed
motionwhic!hwascoielueive to the honour of this country.
thing else. I must beg niy honourable friend the member The _ that the house at its rising do adjourn until
• Friday was tti-n agreed to.
for Newcastle—and Newcastle 'had often sent bellicose
HACKNEY-CARRIAGES DUTIES BILL,
members to this house—to remember that there is no port
This billwas
which would suffer more severely, more in pTeportion to
with a stt*mgnt, ins/te
the magnitude of its commerce, than Newcastle would do,by him in a preceding part of the
if we should go to war. But I beg pardon of the house sitt ng, want through the several preliminary t and s kess,
for having gone into these eonsiderations. All I wish to was
arcade
tird time and passed.
say is that I think the Government have done wisely in
ofG th Mo 15m! of Mr. E. EGERTON, copies were ordered
of thoughtless men ; they have done
asie memorials addressed from time to time to ilucces,•ive
disregarding the cry
wisely in not listening- to the cry of the newspapers, sores -Ye .t rasters-General by the inh:ibit:srita of the towns of
as if democracy t')lle-14Pou-rPreht 2cfac,l fi
i I ,3 es eld, and Congleton, on the sub-
s
of which profess the democratic principle,. .
feet of the
ever ained by war. The Government haveedeonnefonrgtht, J.
he dates of P'S 41 arrangements of those districts, with the
not only for the interests of the country but v
rials _such memorials ; and of any replies to the memo-
they should plunge the , and of any instructions issued to the Post-office autho-
interests of themselves ; for if
war rities ie relation
t into war, the shallow men who now cry for . . to the further postal accommodation of
coun country •weeks call for the disgrace and the those districts.
would in less than fax . Mr S
ministero wip le an the war. }avc, . ()THERON moved an atcldreu to ibe, grown for a
removal of the very