The Sun.
London, England, 1854-05-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVRNING, MAY 13, 1854;

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORD S—( Y E STERDAY. )
Their lordships met at four o'clock.
ROYAL 'COMMISSION.
The Royal assent was given by commission to a num-
ber of public and private bills. The following are the
titles of the public bills : —The Income Tax Bill, the Ex-
chequer Bills Bill, the Militia Bill, and the Ministers'
Money (Ireland) Bill. The Lords Commissioners were
the Lord Chancellor, the Duke of Argyle, and Earl
Granville.
The Earl of WICKLOW presented a petition from
the Society of Solicitors, against the Bills of Exchange
Bill.
MILITARY KNIGHTS OF WINDSOR.

The Earl of ALBEMARLE presented a petition from
the Military Knights of Windsor, complaining of the
misappropriation of certain funds which they claimed,
and praying for inquiry.
The LORD CHANCELLOR, in reply to a question
from the noble earl, said it was not within the compe-
tency of the Charitable Commissioners to inquire into
the case of these individuals, because there was an ex-
press provision in the act appointing them, to the effect
that the jurisdiction of the commissioners should not
extend to the funds of any collegiate church. It
would, however, be a very strange case of the mis-
application of charitable funds, if the Lord Chancellor
could not interpose for the protection of the rights of
the parties.
THE TRANSPORT SHIP ANDES.
_ _ _ •

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE called attention
to a letter in the newspapers, written by an officer in
the ship Andes, stating that while she was at sea, with
a thousand troops on board for the East, a fire broke
out which occupied two hours in being put out, that
there was a great quantity of gunpowder on board, and
only two life-boats ; and that for a considerable time
the lives of the whole crew were jeopardised. It also
appeared that 50,000 cartridges were thrown overboard.
He wished to know whether the Government were in pos-
session of any information on the subject, and if true,
whether they would take precautions to prevent for the
future a vessel leaving without a sufficient number of
boats ?

The Duke of NEWCASTLE said it was true that a
fire broke out in the Andes when 300 miles west of
Malta. It was supposed to have been ignited in conse-
quence of too great a draught in the furnaces. He was
not able to say whether no more than two boats were on
board. The Admiralty had received no report of the
circumstances, nor was it mentioned in the letters
which had reached the Horse Guards from the com-
manding officer, who spoke of the admirable discipline
of the troops on the trying occasion. He could
scarcely believe it possible that the inspectirg officers
would pass a vessel with only two boats. It was sur-
mised, however, that theboats might have been left behind
to make room for an increase of baggage ; and he could
only say that, if such was the case, the officers were
greatly culpable in allowing the ship to put to sea. He
might mention that be had requested the Admiralty to
make enquiries into the subject.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH observed that his
impression was that the account given in the letter was
correct, for it was very probable that the boats had given
place to live stock and to officers' baggage, but they
were of trifling importance compared with the lives of
such a large number of troops.

CHURCH BUILDINGS ACT AMENDMENT
BILL.

The house then went into committee upon this bill.
On the first clause being read,
Earl NELSON complained of the power given by the
bill to sell churchyards after they were closed and to
pull down churches. He should not object to this power
being applied to London, but he did object to its general
character, because the reasons which might exist for its
exercise in the metropolis would not apply in the country.
If cases could be shown in the provinces where it might
be desirable to apply it, a schedule might be made of
such places. In Chichester, Lincoln, and Norwich it
was said there were too many churches ; but he found
on inquiry, and from private information which he had
received, that they were all well attended. The noble
earl was understood to conclude by moving an amend-
ment in accordance with his views.

The Earl of HARROWBY defended the bill. He did
not think that the effects attributed to it by the noble
lord would ever be realised, for it was not probable that
the bishops would go about destroying churches ; and
that immediately after the passing of the bill the most
active exertions would be made to demolish as many
churches as possible.
The Bishop of LONDON said that, with reference to
the cessation of the powers confided to the Church
Building Commissioners, it was quite true that the
powers conferred upon those commissioners would come
to an end in two years ; but he ventured to think, con-
sidering that the duties performed by that body were so
valuable and of such a nature, that when that period
arrived it would be absolutely necessary to confer the
power which they now exercised upon some one. More
than this he would venture to say, although one of the
commissioners himself, that to nobody better than the
present could those powers be given. But if through
any alteration one of the checks provided by the bill
were removed, then it would be competent to Parlia-
ment to make that provision which circumstances might
require. He had assisted at the opening of 83 churches
within his diocese-12 of which were raised through
private munificence —and he trusted, if God spared him,
and their lordships granted him this bill, he would com-
plete his centenary before he died. (Hear.)
The Bishop of LINCOLN quite concurred in the
view that this measure was required in the country as
well as in London.

After a few words from the Earl HARROWBY, the
house divided.
Contents 27
Non-contents 2B
Majority against the amendment —1
The remaining clauses then went through committee,
and the bill was ordered to be reported.
The Bishop of OXFORD presented a petition from
the clergy, churchwardens, and other inhabitants of the
parish of Blyth, in the diocese of York, praying their
lordships not to pass any bill to legalise pew rents or
further to sanction the exclusive possession of property
in church pews.
Their lordships adjourned at a quarter-past seven.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(Y ESTERDAY. )
The SPEAKER took the chair shortly before four o'clock.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
Mr. PIILMAN, the Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod,
appeared at the table, and summoned the house to attend
at the bar of the House of Peers to hear the Royal Assent
given by Commission to several bills, for which see Lords'
report.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Lords' Amendment to the Rossendale Union Gas
Bill were considered and agreed to.
The following bills were read a third time and passed :
Beccles Water and Gas ; Padiham Waterworks; Stour-
bridge Waterworks.
The following bills were considered and ordered to be
road a third time :—Bradford Corporation Waterworks ;
Furness Railway; Llandudno Improvement; North Shields
Quays and Improvements; Stockton and Darlington Rail-
way ; Swansea Harbour.
Ward's Estate Bill was read a second time and ordered
to be committed.
- -

-- ---
Petitions were presented by Mr. Wickham from the
inhabitants of Bowling against the encroachments of
Popery, and against the Maynooth Grant; by Col.
Blair and several ether Scotch members against the '
Scotch Education Bill; by Mr. Lucas from places in
Ireland against any inquiry into convents; by Mr.
T. Duncombe from Finsbury, praying for a better
supply of water for the metropolis by Mr. Horsfall and
very many other hon. members against the opening of
public-houses on Sunday, by Mr. Packe ; from a borough
member in Dorsetshire, praying that public-houses may be
closed during contested elections. Mr. Blackett presented
a petition from the Chamber of Commerce, at Gateshead,
in favour of a renewal of the bill for the enfranchisement
of Church Lev. ,ehold, and Exchequer-bonds.
Mr. T. BARING gave notice that in bringing up the
report on Exchequer-bonds, he should move an addition
to the resolution, declaring the opinion of the house that
it was not expedient to issue any new bonds payable
within five years.
TESTAMENTARY JURISDICTION BILL.

In reply to Sir F. KELLY,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he did not intend to proceed
with the bill next week.
DISFRANCHISING BILLS.
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the orders of the
day for the second reading of the Cambridge and other
disfranchisement bills was read for the purpose of being
postponed until Monday fortnight.
IRISH PROVINCIAL LECTURES.
Mr. F. SCULLY asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland,
if it proposed to continue the grant of 5001. for provin-
cial lectures in Ireland, hitherto made through the Dublin
Society ; and, if so, what change is to be made in the dis-
tribution of it. _

Sir J. YOUNG said changes were about to be made in
the educational grants both in England and Ireland, and
the grant in question would be increased, and not reduced.

SURREY VOTERS.

Mr. EVELYN asked the Secretary of the Treasury,
whether, in accordance with a pledge given by the Govern-
ment on the 23d day of February last, an investigation
has been made by the Treasury into the allegations con-
tained in a petition presented on the 15th day of February,
respecting the non-delivery by the Post-office, in August
1853, of certain notices of objection to the votes of regis-
tered electors of the western division of the county of
Surrey ; and in the event of such investigation having
been made, to ask, secondly, what the result of the inves-
tigation had been.
Ir. WILSON said the inquiry was still going on, but
he hoped in a day or two to be able to present a report.

troops or ammunition on board, and from what ports they
had come, and where they were bound to. The noble lord
wished also to ask whether the Admiralty had received any
account from the Baltic relative ';o the taking of Cronstadt
which had resulted in great loss to our fleet.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, Sir, with the permission of the
house, I will answer the last question first being the most
important, I have received no account whatever by tele-
graph from the Baltic, and, therefore, I can have no
doubt that there must be some error in the report to which
my noble friend has referred. I have received a letter
this morning from Sir C. Napier, dated May 3, when he
was still on the coast of Swedsn, but I am reminded
by a noble friend that there is a post as late as the
sth inst., but Sir Charles Napier states in his letter of the
3d that the fogs were so thick that he did not think it
would be safe for some time to move the fleet. The right
hon. hart. then proceeded to give a lengthened explanation
with regard to the first question. It was true the Tiger had
made such a capture of ships, but the ships were not filled
with troops. They were only laden v,ith ammunitions of
war.

TENANTS' COMPENSATION BILLS.
Mr. MOORE moved that the house, at its rising, should
adjourn until Monday, with the view of calling attention
to the Tenants' Compensation Bills, which had been referred
by the Lords to a select committee, and of inquiring what

course, Government intended to take with reference to
these bills.

Lord J. RUSSELL repliel that when the bills came out
of committee Government would bo prepared to state their
intentions with regard to them.
ROMAN CATHOLIC SAILORS.
Mr. LUCAS took the opportunity of the motion for ad-
journment for drawing the attention of the house to
the compulsory attendance of Catholic sailors on the
Church of England service celebrated on board her
Majesty's ships. The right honourable baronet the
First Lord of the Admiralty stated the other night
that for a hundred years past no complaints had been
m•lde of the regulations which prevailed on board ship
with regard to divine worship, but the right hon. baronet
must have been mistaken on that head, for repeated com-
plaints had been made by the Rev. Mr. Belly and another
Roman Catholic priest on behalf of Roman Catholic sailors

sir J. GRAHAM adhered to what he had already stated
on t-is subject ; the attendance of Roman Catholics at the

performance of the service on boari;l4 was purely volun-
tarily on the part of Roman Cathllics, and with the ex-
ception of some complaints made by the Roman Catholic
priests of Portsmouth and Sheerness, no fault whatever
had been found with the regulations which had now been
in force for upwards of a century.
Admiral WALCOTT had been a great many years at
sea, and he had never heard of any complaints on this sub-
ject.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL suggested that Roman Catholic
sailors should be allowed to assemble on the poop by them-
selves for the celebration of religious worship on Sundays
accordinE, to the ritual of their own persuasion.
The subject then dropped, and the motion for the ad-
journment of the house was then agreed to.
THE NEW BUDGET.
Sir J. PAKINGTON asked the noble lord the member
for tho city of London what part of the new resolutions it
was proposed to take on Monday.
Lord J. RUSSELL replied that Government would pro-
pose to take the resolutions relating to spirits and malt,
and therefore the second reading of the bill embodying
those resolutions would stand first on the order of the day
for Monday.

plass, with reference to continuing the existing system, a
denominational system maintained by the Privy Council
grants, it appeared to him that there were three main ob-
jections to it. In the first place it was a system which had
arisen from sectarianism, which was an evil. Another ob-
jection was that the Privy Council grants fell short most
whore they were required most. Another reason was that
this system had been already tried and found wanting.
With reference to the secular system or the separation of
secular from religious instruction, it appeared to him that
that system was most deserving of being called national
which was likely to bring within its pale the largest num-
ber of people. With the present state of feeling on this
question he believed that if they were to establish schools
in Scotland on the secular system, they would be schools
without scholars. If the people were divided on all other
points they were agreed on this, that in their public schools
secular education should not be dissociated from religious.
He next came to the system of his hon. and learned friend
—schools on a religious basis—taking as the basis that
which was the religion of nine-tenths of the people of Scot-
land. His honourable friend had donejustice to the
speech of the Lord Advocate. That speech had met with
groat approval. He wished ,he could say as much for the
bill, which had encountered great opposition in Scotland.
It might be supposed that it established a system of
education without religion. Nothing could be farther
from the truth. Although the superintendence of the
presbytery was removed, and tests were abolished, yet it
must be remembered that the minister of the parish would
still remain a member of the parochial school board.
The preamble of the bill especially referred to, and ac-
kno wlodged the necetsity of religious instruction being im-
p trted in the schools, and the 27th clause provided that
the school committee should set apart certain hours for
religious instruction, at which children should not be
bound to attend if their parents or guardians objected.
There were special enactments on the subject of religion,
and he did not see how any one could say that religion was
not cared for. He apprehended, however, that the chief
objection to the bill was, that it removed the superintend-
ence from the presbytery. and abolished tests. It was
impossible to say that the presbyteries could efficiently
perform their duty. The presbytery had the power of ex-
amining the master, of visiting the school, but they had
nothing to say to tke appointment of the master, which
rested with the heritors. They could not prescribe the
books to be used, or the nature of the instruction to be
given ; and with reference to the power of removal, it was
practically inoperative. It was on this account that his
right hon. friend proposed to establish a system of inspec-
tion by a general board. If they looked to history they
would find that the connection between the church and
the schools was not for the benefit of the church, but that
the youths of Scotland might be well brought up. The
other objection on the part of the church was the aboli-
tion of the tests. To take a proper view of these
tosts they must look to the history of the times in
which they were imposed, and they would find that
they were ststablished for the purpose of securing and
maintaining the Presbyterian faith. Did any man now
pretend to say that they would injure the Presbyterian
faith by abolishing the tests? Unquestionably this was
the object of the act of 1690, which was subsequently
embodied in the Act of Union. By providing that
the schoolmasters should not be confined exclusively to
the established church, he maintained that they did not
infringe in the slightest degree on the spirit of those
acts. By the returns published with the census of the
number of persons attending religious worship in Scotland
on Sunday morning, the 30th of March, 1851, he found
that the number of attendants belonging to the established
church were 228,000; belonging to the free church 255,000;
and belonging to the united presbyterians, 143,000. They
therefore found that, taking the whole of Scotland, there
was a vast majority of those who held the presbyterian
faith who did not belong to the established church. But
this inequality was still more striking in the counties. In
the county of Edinburgh the numbers attending the esta-
qlished church were 15,000, and the free church 18,000. In
Aberdeen the numbers attending the established church
were 20,000, the free church 23,000 ; in Argyll, the estab-
lished church, 4,238, free church 6,305 ; in Lanark, the
established church 24,000, and the free church 26,000; in
Caithness, the established church 412, and the free church
9,779, and in Ross and Cromarty established church 1,411,
and free church 20,237. He asked then was it right to
maintain a test which excluded all but those who belonged
to the established church from teaching in the public
schools. The abolition of the test, he conceived, was called
for not only in the interest of the free church, but also in
that of the established church, as it would remove a source
of heart-burning and hostility, which would exist as
long as the test remained. Having alluded to the objec-
tions of the established church, he would now allude to
the objections taken by those who held the voluntary
principle. What they said was, that they could not sup-
port any system of education by which religion in pub-
lic schools was to be taught by the state, and in order
to carry out their views they were prepared to support,
if necessary, a system of secular education, or rather
of secular education disassociated from religious in-
struction. (Hear.) He believed that by advocating
such a system they were outraging the feelings of at least
three-fourths of the people of Scotland. But they must
admit that this bill, though it fell short of their principle,
was a great improvement on the existing system. Objec-
tions had been likewise taken by the episcopalians and
Roman Catholics. As an episcopalian he did not see any
objection to this bill, and he assured the Roman Catholics
that he would be no party to a bill which made no provi-
sion for the education of Roman catholics, because he was
not one of those who thought it the duty of a Protestant
state to allow the children of Roman Catholics to grow up
in ignorance. He assured the Roman Catholics that their
interests were not forgotten ; his right hon. friend would
assist them in committee ; and at any rate they would not
find themselves in a worse position. Although he had
spoken hitherto only of the objections to the bill, it must
not be assumed that there were no parties in Scotland who
were not in favour of it. They had the free church, who,
though they were not satisfied with its provisions, yet con-
sidered the will would form a good basis. They were anxious
for the second reading. They had also a large body of the
established church, quiet thinking men, who saw the evils
with which they had to grapple, and who were not blinded
by prejudice and party feeling, and who wished that this
bill should pass into a law rather than that they should
have no measure. Then there had been 44,000 signatures
to the petitions in favour of the bill, 28,000 against it, and
10,000 for alterations. He thought they might add
these 10,000 to the 41,000 who were in favour of the prin-
ciple of the bill. (Laughter.) Then turning to the state
of education among the prisoners, he found that out of
21,000 prisoners 4,338 could not read at all, 10,482 could
only read with difficulty, 10,282 could not write at all,
534 could only sign their names, and 8,336 could write
with difficulty ; and the chaplain of one of the gaols said,
speaking of the prisoners :—" As regards their moral and
religious condition, the generality of the prisoners are, on
admission, deplorably ignorant. Many of them, indeed,
are insensate, and, humanly speaking, impervious to con-
viction. Nothwithstanding, however, this their natural
depravity of heart, their innate propensity to every evil,
their intaught aversion to any good—the result of a God-
less, Christless upbringing, it is gratifying, nevertheless,
to observe the anxiety with which they, sooner or later, in
the course of their confinement here, avail themselves of
the many advantages they possess of acquiring religious
knowledge." The language of his right hon. friend who
brought in the bill had been said to be exaggerated, but
it found an echo in the General Assembly in Scotland, be-
cause Dr. Robertson, speaking in reference to the state of
education in Scotland, said, "We cannot disguise from
ourselves the truth that, be the cause of the evil what it
may, thousands, and even tens of thousands, are growing
up in the midst of us, from youth to manhood, whose
education is grievously neglected. For these masses of
society nothing is done, either intellectually or morally,
to fit them for the important place which they ought to
occupy, and which, were they qualified for its duties and
privileges, is waiting to receive them. In the degraded
condition to which their parents have been reduced it is
scarcely too much to say that the training which they re-
ceive is but fitted to make them pests and plagues of so-
ciety." He said, then, it was their duty, as far as was in
their power, to endeavour to meet this great and growing
evil, and he hoped that the members of that house, unin-
fluenced by sectarian or party feeling, would enable them
to resist the amendment. He believed it would be an
evil day for Scotland if they rejected this bill.
•

Mr. C. BRUCE said the Free Church had done a great
deal to forward education, and their scholars were perhaps
more numerous than they could conveniently maintain, and
they were therefore iu favour of this bill. Those opposed
to the bill were the whole of the Establishment, the landed
proprietors, and those who held the voluntary principle,
and who had passed a resolution that this measure was uu-
sound in principle, hostile to liberty, and opposed to the
Word of God. The bill had swept away a system of which
they had had a long and happy experience. The hon. gen-
tleman quoted a statement made by a Scotch clergyman
with the view of showing that one in seven of the popula-
tion of Scotland were under education. This statement
represented that the scholars in the schools attached to the
Free Church numbered only 59,896, while those in the
schools connected with the Established Church reached to
259,688, clearly proving (the hon. member contended) that
the parochial system was highly popular with the people
of Scotland. This bill, then' would act in a manner most
prejudicial to the interest of the schoolmasters engaged in
carrying out that system ; it would most unjustly reduce
their stipends for the next 30 years, whereas it should have
been the wish, as it was the duty, of the Government, to
introduce a measure to fix their remuneration at the pre-
sent maximum rate. It would have been easy enough in
such a measure as that to have introduced those alterations
in the parochial system which experience had taught them
were necessary to render it perfect, while provision might
have been made in it for granting pensions to deserving and
meritorious schoolmasters whose health had failed them,
or who were no longer competent to perform the duties of
tuition. A short bill of that sort, ho insisted, it was the
duty of the Government to have introduced, and then the
Legislature would have been in a position to take up
the whole question, with the view of taking steps to
extend the parochial system of education in Scot-
land, which, • he admitted, was capable of great ex-
pansion. For instance, the parochial schools might
be very properly extended to large towns, where, he be-
lieved, the infidelity of which they had heard so much in
connection with this bill, was much more the child of false
reasoning than barbarism. According to their own pro-
fessions, Government desired to establish a union between
religious and secular education ' • but they forgot that the
parochial system had already solved that problem, or they
would have been slow to introduce this bill, which would
greatly interfere with it, if it did not go far to destroy it
altogether. The longer these schools existed the more
they seemed to improve and benefit Scotland, never at any
former period had they been so efficient as they were at
present ; while the average attendance of children was
greater than that of any other class of schools in Scotland,
which by no means made out the allegation of the Govern-
ment that the majority of the people were hostile to them.
He was quite willing, however, that they should have an
opportunity of testing the value of their new system, but
at the same time the house should require an assurance to
be given that some fixed test of Christianity or Protes-
tantism would be applied to the teachers. The preamble
professed to have some regard for the feelings of the people
of Scotland, in that respect, but it occurred to him that
the phraseology of the whole bill "kept the word of pro-
mise to the ear to break it to the sense Ho for one did
nut choose to rely upon a preamble which was
touched
in such general and indefinite terms, professing
a regard for the feelings of the majority of the
people, that it would be just as much applicable t 3 the
Christianity of Spain or Italy as that of Scotland ;
and what safeguard was there in the absence of any
test that the spirit of the education to be given in these
new schools would be drawn from the former, and not the
latter source? Depend upon it the legacy which Wash-
ington left to his countrymen in the United States was
well worthy the study of modern statesmen ; in his fare-
well address to the people of America, Washington told
them that the liberty and independence of a state, as well
as its material and political prosperity could only be sus-
tained by the establishment of a system of education that
was founded upon the religious eleineut, Now We bill

had. a directly contrary tendency, it altogether disregarded
relig ion by dispensing with any test of Christianity to be
ap,ol ied to the teacher, and this heavy blow and great dis-
-00111 'cement were to ba dealt out to the Established
Church, for the sake of gratifying the demands of the free
chw •ch. Had it not Islni for the clamour of the free
chu; rch, w 3 slinuld never have heard of this bill, and he
shoe ild like to know what the free kirk had done to deserve
this immense consideration at the hands of ministers. He
repot sted, in conclusion, that they had no right to disturb
the ( 3xisting system ; it had worked exceedingly well for
the p eople, and to replace it by schools which would afford
the p 7.rent no positive security or test of the Christianity
a the teachers, would be so highly distasteful to the people
of Sec tlaud, that they would never obtain their confidence.
Dives twxl of all assurances or test of the Christianity or pro.
testan ti'sm of the teachers, he believed these schools would
prove a cnirse instead of a blessing to Scotland, and he
should therefore give his most cordial support to the
amondem mt.

Mr.. J. MACGREGOR denied that this bill was a con-
cession., to the Free Church of Scotland, whose ministers
in reliraq uishing their former livings in the church of
Scotland had set an example of foroearance which had
never been witnessed by the world before. They had
shown throughout their career an utter abnegation of every-
thing tha-.`; was selfish, and it was unjust to men of such
great mor:d worth to say that this bill was an offering to
their den ands. He hoped the house would agree to the
principle of the bill, although there might be some de-
tails whic b it would be necessary to amend in committee.
Mr. G. IDUNDAS regretted that the learned lord should
have strut ,k such a blow as he had done at a system which
the expe.ierice of centuries had shown to have worked
well. He was ready to admit that there was a great need
of edacati.m in Scotland, and he would even go far as
to say that the poor neglected children
of the country
ought to be taken possession of and educated by force,
and, if possible, made useful members of society. What
he found fault with in the bill was that it chan,Yed the
whole character of education in Scotland. It abolished
the existing tests, and by opening the parish schools to
masters of all denominations, would prove a fruitful
source of hostility between the schoolmaster and the cler-
gyman. He also objected to the bill because it professed
to constitute the supervision of inspectors for that of the
clergy. The parish schools were feuded about 200 years
ago in connexion with the church, and since that time
the clergy had considered their care a sacred duty. Surely,
then, the Government might have devised some plan of
removing unworthy and incompetent masters without de-
stroying the existing system. (Hear, hear.) He objected,
further, to the centralisation of management which the
bill would introduce. Almost everything would be re-
ferred to the central board, and there had always been
a strong feeling in this country against that principle.
He was sorry to find a clause in the bill allowing
children to absent themselves during the hours of
religious instruction. He thought that that provision
would lead to many children withdrawing themselves
whose parents and guardians would never otherwise have
thought of desiring them to do so. In fine, he regretted
that the bill should be of such a sweeping character, for he
thought that a much more simple measure would have
answered the purpose. No doubt that the salaries of tke
teachers required augmentation, bat he was sure that the
heritors of the different counties would have been glad to
have contributed the necessary funds if an appeal had been
made to them. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. G. DUFFY said that though the bill did not flatter
any sectarian prejudices, it went honestly to amend the
laws relating to education where they were defective. As
a member of the Scottish establishment, he regretted that
so much hostility should have been displayed against all
the provisions of the bill relating to parish schools by a
majority of the Established clergy ; and he firmly believed
that the course they had taken would prove to be exceed-
ingly prejudicial to the Church of that country. (Hear,
hear.) He considered that the general board would form
a body that would be really responsible for the character
and qualifications of the schoolmasters, and that candi-
dates for that office of superior attainments would no
longer be excluded as they were under the present
system. He thought, too, that the superintendence
of the presbytery would be well replaced by those of the
board. (Hear, hear.) He believed that the plan of tie
Government was an ingenious, a comprehensive, and a
liberal measure, and as such it had his unqualified approval.
(Cheers.) He hoped, in conclusion, that no fears lest there
was a kind of pilot balloon, sent up to ascertain how the
wind would be for some other measure, would prevent the
English members from supporting a measure which had
been earnestly sought for, and which was earnestly desired
by the people of Scotland. (Cheers.)
Mr. MIALL objected to any scheme of what was called
national education ; but conceding that he was mistaken in
his views upon the subject, what was the present bill in-
tended to accomplish ? Its object was to grapple with what
was considered to be the alarming growth of ignorance in
Scotland. Well, if Scotland was really going back to her
ancient barbarism, it was certainly strange that the learned
lord should have omitted to furnish the house with any
evidence of a fact at once so melancholy and so significant.
(Cheers.) If any such evidence existed it must have been
quite within the learned lord's reach, and he should have
stated it for the information of the house. It was quite
tree that the Scottish census tables had not been published
when the learned lord introduced the measure, but still he
was probably in a position to have ascertained the leediug
fact which those tables disclosed—namely, that one in
seven of the whole population was under scholastic train-
ing, and that four-fifths of that training was administered
by agencies other than those produced by public provision.
(Hear.) No doubt there was a vast mass of ignorance and
immorality ; but was not that symptomatic ? Would it
cease if the means of instruction were afforded ? Or was it
not due to deeper causes? The proletaire class was pecu-
liar to all large cities and crowded towns. It was to be
met with not only in England and Scotland, but in Pills
sia and France, and even in the United States. (Hear.)
Even in America, where employment was general and its
rewards large and sure, it would be found in the large
towns that this class was both numerous and troublesome.

(Hear, hear.) Nor was it hard to account for this ; for
the unfortunate, the idle, the profligate, and those who
wished to bury crime in obscurity, naturally flocked into
the great cities. Now take the case of a single family of
this class. If they visited it they would have to go into
the most crowded district, where every room was tenanted
by a household. There was no privacy, no distinction
between the sexes, nothing to comfort or cheer. Vice,
squalor, wretchedness, and misery were everywhere to be
seen ; curses, blasphemy, and obscenity were to be heard
on every side. Let them take that family and ask them-
selves how it was possible by the simile construction of an
educational machinery, to bring it under the influences
which they wished ? Did they think that to teach it
reading, writing, arithmetic, and geography, could do
much to elevate it, or to civilise ? (Cheers.) This was an
argument which appeared to him unanswerable, but it
was also fully borne out by the educational report of Mr.
Horace Mann. Let them construct what machinery they
would of a general character, it was impossible by that
means to re tch the lowest class, out of whom sprung the
great mass of crime. The bill before the house was of a
too general character ; it was not specific enough to grapple
with the evils which it professed to remedy ; it left ant
the very class who most needed instruction. There was
another class, the labouring poor, who in England, what-
ever they do in Scotland, showed great indisposition to
avail themselves of the educational advantages provided
for them. Mr. H. Mann stated that the school fee was the
very least obstruction in the way of their receiving educa-
tion. While the school fee was but ld. or 2d. a week, the
parents would lose ls. or ls. 6d. by depriving themselves of
the child's labour ; and there was a strong disposition
among the poor to get their children into earning at
as early an age as possible. On this grouid Mr. Mann
came to the conclusion that no mere extension of
schools would suffice to bring education within the reach
of the children of the poor. And yet this class were will-
ing to spend fifty millions a year on the gratification of
their taste for strong drink. (Hear, hear.) The schools
proposed by the bill might be scattered all over Scotland,
but they would not secure a better education for the chil-
dren ; it would merely transfer the expense of the schools
from the parishes to the state. The parochial system had
prevailed for a number of years, and the house ought not
lightly to take it entirely away. Had the bill proposed
merely to extend and liberalise the parochial system, he
would have supported it. But he saw in it the embryo of
a vast scheme in future. These commissions were increas-
ing on all hands; we had commissions to regulate every-
thing, and very soon not only our comforts but our liber-
ties would be buried under a mass of commissions. (Hear.)
He could not conceive how any national system of religi-
ous teaching could be established which would not be
either latitudinarian or unjust. (Hear.)
Mr. BOUVERIE said the reasons given by the hon.

gentleman for voting against the bill were very strong ones
in its support. He altogether lost sight of the fact that if
the provisions of this bill did not reach a certain class,
there were others which they did reach. (Hear.) The
hon. gentleman, though evidently not knowing much of
Scotland, must know that a system of national education
had existed there for 200 years, and that in consequence of
that system there were fewer of the miserable class he had
described than there would otherwise have been. (Hear,
hear.) He would not discuss the question on the narrow
ground of religious tests; but believing that it would pro-
mote education amongst all, he should support the second
reading of the bill, though objecting to some of its pro-
visions. He believed there could be nothing like educa-
tion unless combined with moral training founded on reli-
gious principles. But the best security for this was
found in the religious character of the people of Scotian 1.
(Hear, hear.) There was nothing in the old statutes re-
quiring religious instruction to be given ; the legisla-
ture knew full well that they could rely on the
religious feelings of the people ; and he regretted that the
noble and learned lord had not done the same. He also
objected to the provision for perpetuating separate schools
for different sects ; he feared it would tend to keepupre-
ligious animosities. (Hear.) It had been askedwhat was
the necessity of such of a bill as this for Scotland.
Twelve
years ago, the Commissioners of Poor-law
Inquiry auperome meansp ism
in Scot-
land reported that all means of
s
suppressing b
would prove insufficient unless accompanied
for promoting education
for, instead of an improvement
in this respect, they© was rather a deterioration. The re-
turns of the prison inspectors showed that, while the popu-
lation
had increased 10 per cent. from 1841 to 1851, the
average
daily number of female prisoners in confinement in
Scotland had increased 35 per cent., and that of males 54
per cent.—a proof of the deterioration spoken of by the
commissioners, and of the necessity for improving educa-
tion in that country. The house mast bear in mind that
there must be some legislation this year, or the schoolmas-
ters would be in a worse position than ever. By the act of
1803, their salaries were fixed according to the price of
grain, and a reversion was provided for every 25 years.
This was the year in which it should take place ; and it
was the more necessary, by reason of the great advance in
the price of provisions. (Hear, hear.) The noble and
learned lord was therefore compelled to bring in a bill on
the subject; and had he merely proposed to increase the
schoolmasters' salaries, without endeavouring to introduce
any improvement in the system of education, it would
have had a very little chance of b •
being carried. The secret
of all this dissension was that tha national system, up to a
few years ago, was national in fact, as well as iu name ; it
was the system of the national church, but that church
was the national church no longer. (Hear.) Hence they
could not extend the system on the basis of the so-called
national church. The provisions of this bill were briefly
these : —the masters were at present appointed by
the heritors, subject to the approval of tho Presbytery,
who afterwards exercised very little control over the mas-
ters. It was proposed to get rid of the religious test alto-
gether and the superintendence of the presbytery; and
that was the strong objection of the national church to the
1 bill. But he contended that the security for the religious
education of the people was not in the control of the pres-
-1 bytery, or in the tests applied to the master, but in the re-
ligious feeling of the people generally. (Hear.) If they
1 found that their children were not properly instructed
they would remove them from the school, or get the school-
master removed. Who, in this country, would rely for
the religious instruction of his children on some test or
1 paper signed by the schoolmaster? (Hear.) A farther
change proposed by the bill Wag the establielawfultof

schools in parishes at the expense of the ratepayers, under
the superintendence of a. local board of management, and.
controlled by a general board and visiting inspectors. This
was about the best system which could be devised ; it se-
cured both local responsibility and the advantages of cen-
tral supervision and direction. By this means both the
quantity and quality of education would be improved. H.
disapproved of the clause which gave the central board the
power of dismissing the schoolmaster, and trusted that
that provision woula be: altered. (Hear.) He was confi-
dent that the measur e as a whole would greatly promote
the interests of Scotia nd ; and it was the duty of the legit
lature to take care that they did not hand down those in-
terests to those who should come after them in a worse
condition than they fouizd them. (Hear.)
Mr. MA.CKIE said the system at present pursued was of
a most liberal description. The effect of the proposed in-
spection would be to substi tote for the guiding care of the
clergyman, who was always on the spot, the casual in-
structions of a gentleman, who know nothing whatever of
the local wants of the district.. He objected to the aboli-
tion of the tests ; this would leave no security whatever
for the religious character of the teachers. He would sup-
port the second reading of the bill if the Government took
security that the schoolmasters should be protestant, ; but
if Lot, ho would suppo -t the amendment of the hon. mem-
ber for Perthshire. (Rear.)
Mr. HUME said that he desired to state explicitly on
the present occasion the oir;nions of those whom he repro.
rented. Although there we.-e many differences of opinion
on the mode of regulating the system of education, there
was great unanimity that education should be improved
and extended. The present meas are, although there were
parts of it which he objected to, and which he would en-
deavour to amend in committee, was on the whole satis-
factory. The hon. gentleman who had just spoken had
asked why they meddled with the old parochial establish-
ments ? For this reason, that alterations had taken place
in the opinions of a large portion of the people of Scot.
land, which rendered a cha uge in the school system neces-
sary. The people of Scotian(' desired to have an extended
religious and secular educat 1011, but it was impossible that
a minority could have the superintendence of the schools.
Formerly Scotland was distin,guished for the education of
her people, but whilst other m itions were advancing Scot-
land was deteriorating. Whet the was a boy there was no
distinction or debate as to religion. All met together in,
the school, and ho wished to bring things back to that po-
sition again. (Hear, hear.) He' did not mean to say that
the parochial system had not done immense gookor that
the Presbyterian body in general had net done their duty.
He did not vote for the second reading on that ground
but because circumstances and opinions had altered, aid I%
was their duty to adapt their legislation to the new state
of things that had arisen. If it was in his power to carry
out his own views, he would have the expense of educa-
tion defrayed, not from the public funds, but like the poor
laws from local rates. (Hear, bear.) He believed that by
such a system the members of the education committee
would, like the hoard of guardians, be a check on im-
proper conduct. In New York, Kentucky and Massachu-
setts, that system had bean adopted, and foundwaswo
rk
most to
most admirably. Secular education was what was given to
those schools, yet there was as great a desire to obtain a
sound religious education, according to their views, in those
states, as in any part of Sootlamd. (Hear, hear.) The sta-
tistics of crime in Amt.‘rica sltowed that it was only in.
very small proportion to the population that the native
educated American was guilty of crime. But, as he was not
able to carry out his own views- on this subject, he
that
willing to accept the next best th 3 in g —namely, government
aid combined with local rates. 1 was sorry to say, ha
there was a want of inclination on the part of parents to
send their children to school. In the county of Norfolk,
where he resided there was plenty of school-room, but the
parents, ignorant of the value of education to the future
welfare of their childron, did not. send them. Looking at
the number of persons who were lost to society from igno•
ranee, the crime which was engendered, and the violation
of property which took place from the same cause, he hoped
they would all unite in promoting and extending educa-
tion. (Hear, hear.) The- noble Lord said he would give up
one clause of the bill. He Mr. Plume) hoped that he would
also gire up the 27th clauso. He thought that no school-
master should be dismissed' till he had been tried and had
an opportunity of defending hims elf. The principle of the
bill was to provide an united and improved system of re-
ligious and secular education, and .on that ground he would
support the second reading. ( Heat:, hear.)
Col. BLAIR denied that the opponents of this bill were
opposed to the extension of edu cation in Scotland, but he
differed from the Lord Advocat e as to the inefficiency with
which the parochial schools were conducted at present.
Nor did ho rest upon his own judgment nierely in defend-
ing those institutions. The Chancellor oi`. the Exchequer
had in his speech at Manchester warmly eulogised the pa-
rochial schools of Scotland, and attributed try their exist.
ence the success of Scotchmen in all the pursuits of life.
His (Col. Blair's) opinion was that the Scottish system of
education was one that you might extend but could not
possibly improve. The hon. and gallant member pro-
ceeded to show what had be en done already for education,
both by the national and fre e churches in Scotland. The
Established Church and the assembly had together 1.000
schools providing education for several thousand children.
The assembly was annually• increasing its number of
schools, and was prepared to go still further should the
educational necessity of the c• country require it. It had
been alleged that the Geyer] intent bill was popular in.
Scotland, but he believed the contrary to be the case.
The General Assembly of the Established Church had
pronounced against it, and in the free church several of
the most eminent leaders had eNpressed hostile opinions
concerning it. The hon. and gallant member proceeded to
quote the opinions of free church divines against the bill,
and contended further, that the laity were opposed to it as
well as the clergy. He was not opposed to a measure for
extending education in Scotland:, but he was strongly op-
posed to a proposition which Wi Juld interfere with those
institutions, the parochial schools , from which the popula•
tion of Scotland had derived so much benefit.

Mr. COWAN repudiated a itai,ement which, he said, if'
net made in distinct terms in that house, had been hazarded.
in Scotland and out of doors, that this bill was to encou-
rage infidelity. He had the highest respect for the parish.
schools of Scotland, but he hoped to see them so improved.
that they would be the means of bringing a sound and
cheap education to all classes of the community. The ob-
jection that the system proposed by the Government was
one of godless education had been advanced over and over
again against the national system of education in Ireland ;
yet the success which had attended the establishment of
that measure could not bo disputed, and he believed it
would be found one of the most efficient means towards
the regeneration of that country. (Hear, hear.) He
hoped the members for Ireland. would support a measure
which would confer upon Scotland those benefits which
they now enjoyed. He considered that was a most valu-
able provision of the bill which took out of the hands of
the clergy the educational superintendence of the people.
He implored the house to conceder the responsibility that
would attach to them if they threw out a measure which
was intended to confer the bles.sings of education upon the
rising generation of Scotland.
Mr. NAPIER admitted the m:ponsibility which their de-
cision upon the principle of this bill imposed upon the
house, but he thought they ought, before they assented to it,
to take care that that principle was sound. The bill pro-
posed to introduce a national system of education for Scot-
land, and the argument upon which it proceeded was, that
the established church of Scotland , in which the control of
the existing system rested, did noi.:represent the'feelings of
the majority of the community. The objection he took to
it was, that it was not supplementing the agency of the
Established Church, but was superseding that agency,
which was bound up in the feelings of the people—that in-
stead of reforming the parochial schools, and supplement-
ing upon them something that should fill up the unoccu-
pied ground, it proposed to overturn the existing agency
altogether. A civil board was to be appointed under the
control of the Government, and an inspection was provided,
but that religion should be connected with the system of
teaching was not provided either in reference to the inspec-
tion or the teachers. If religion were, as he contended it
was, an essential element of education, it ought not to be
superintended exclusively by a Government board, but
should be in some degree under the superintendence of the
ministers of religion. One clause of the bill provided that
the board should, from time to tine, make regulations, par-
ticularly as to the inspection of schools and examination of
schoolmasters in religious and secular knowledge, and to
enforce the regulations they made. The minister was to
be a member o the school committee, but that committee
was to be entirely enrolled by the Government board—the
minister would be powerless, and his interest in the system
diminished, if not destroyed.' The character of the Scotch
people, which had been formedhytthoeibresypsrtoeumd,owfasednuocaw-
tion, and of which they had reason _
mouldedvalued bsyysttheims
,baonatrid, ,
iafn
ndetcensstesaardy,oifmtakipronvfnugpithiits
othl d b and n d
was to be cast aside for what he thought a wild and delusive
experiment. As he objected to this attempt to transfer
the education of Scotland from the hands of its religious
instructors to a Government board, he should oppose the
bill.
Mr. COBDEN said that he should not have intruded
himself in the debate but that one English member 'had
spoken whose remarks required some observations. His
honourable friend, the member for Rochdale, had a mind
so logical and acute, that if he made a speech which failed
to convince his audience, it must be because he had an
impossible case to deal with. His hon. friend said that
he was opposed to all state provision for education. But
no one wanted it. Every one wanted a local system regu-
lated by Act of Parliament. His hon. friend went on
with a defence of his objections to a system of national
education, and there he thought that his hon. frfend had
landed them in the slough of despond altogether, for he
pointed to large cities with teeming populations immersed
in ignorance, and asked how they were to be educated.
He thought that there was hope for his honourable friend,
even from the Scottish view of the question. Large cities
did not reproduce their population, which, if they were
left to themselves, would die out in a few generations,
but their populations were reproduced because they were
recruited from agricultural districts. If, then, you wanted
to improve the character of the populations of towns, you
must have not merely education for great cities but general
education(—hear, hear)—and in proportion to the pregress
of general education would the character of life in cities
be improved. His hon. friend said that if you went into
the narrow courts of cities, where there was no ventila-
tion and no scavenging, .you would find an outcast and de•
graded population. Where did they come from ? Did
they come from that part of Great Britain which for a cen-
tury had had a national education ? Did you find in this
degraded population any considerable number of Scotch-
men ? Why was that ? Why was it, as an hon. gentleman
had said, when a Scotchmen appeared in a place in Austra-
lia with his blue bonnet on that he was surrounded by a

mob of persons anxious to engage his services. It was
because he came from a country where there was some
national education. His (Mr. Cobden's) plan was to have
national education, not only that in Scotland, and even
that timproved, but generally. His honourable friend
said, if a system of national education was established, the
people would not come to it. In that his noble friend was
somewhat inconsistent, for he and his friends st6l that the
population was educated ; that in England one child in
seven went to school, and in Scotland ono in eight, and yet
ho said that if you had good schools people would not send
their children to them. His (Mr. Cobden's) experience
showed him that if there was a good school, and especially
where th(r3 was a good master, there was an instinctive
desire on the part of the people to send their children to
them, and even when they were ignorant themselves they
had an instinctive know ige when ti eir children wereim-
proving. A good master sent a child home in good spirit it
going to school,
from school, and not languid and depressed, for a good
master must himself have good physical spirits and energy,
ea(niuyeaintaiotniorioetlighectticoattieo
and thus the children were enlivened by
dn,eaalntdwidtehnbyytthhaist
and the parents soon saw it. His hon. friend and his party
house or the Government.
wereth question sd
of education
Now, tha top inin
calcu-
lated to raise a party in England and Scotland,
was
t land, which
would tend to the abandonment
of all hope of a national
education, since there was no
scheme on which all parties
could agree, and then the people must take the matter into
their own panda. 110 (x w=
r, co
) thought, aim IQ was