The Sun.
London, England, 1854-07-26 00:00:00

companies should be liable under such circumstances.
The legislative machinery seemed that session to be
wholly out of gear, but he hoped that in the next session
the Government would do their duty in this matter.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY could assure the
noble earl that a similar measure to that which ha i been
withdrawn would be introduced next session.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Lords' Amendments to the Wiest London Rail-
way and the Westminster Terminus Railway Bills were
considered and agreed to.
THIRD READINGS.

The Stainforth's Estate and Stirling's Estate Bill were
read a third time and passed.
The Worsley's Estate Bill was read a second time.
BRIBERY BILL.

The consideration of this bill, as amended, was then
proceeded with, commencing with the adjourned debate
on Lord John Russell's clause making it illegal to give
refreshments to voters on the day of nomination or
polling.
Mr. WALPOLE opposed- the- clause as being at
variance with public opinion. It was hopeless to think
of inducing the elector to register his vote solely from
patriotic motives.
Mr. THORNELY strongly objected to allowing
either travelling expenses or refreshments, as it would
be only opening the door to endless bribery and
treating.
Mr. T. EGERTON said the clause was decidedly
at variance with the feelings of the country, prohibiting
as it did the commonest hospitality, and he was satisfied
that it would be largely evaded.
Mr. STANHOPE argued that it was unjust to expect
that men would come from a long distance to poll at
county elections, if they were required not only to Loose
a day but to pay for their own refreshments. He there-
fore agreed with the last speaker that all parties would
combine to evade the clause.
Mr. L. HEYWORTH remarked that, if they wished
to elevate the character of the elector, they must abolish
travellingbothmA.N es d thexpseantsesa bindril d b
refreshments.
Mr.' useless
they
allowed reasonable refreshments of any kind. It-'was a
mistake to permit travelling expenses, but if they per-
mitted refreshments, bribery and treating would be as
rife as ever.
Capt.' SCOBELL hoped the noble lord would adhere
to the clause.
Mr. E. BALL obtained his election without the ex-
pense of a penny piece, and he never would consent to
sit upon any other terms. A member of Parliament gave
up a good deal of time to the service of his constituents,
and it was unjust to expect him to pay either travelling
or refreshment expenses The dignity of the electors, as
well as the integrity of the member, depended in a great
measure upon the absence of both, and, under these cir-
cumstances, he should oppose treating of every kind.
Mr. ROBERTS also supported the clause.
Mr. BARROW insisted that county electors coming
from a distance were entitled to reasonable refreshment.
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the clause
Against it 35
Majority —42
The clause was accordingly read a second time.
Lord R. GROSVENOR moved to add the day of de-
claration to the day of nomination and polling.
Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the noble lord would not
press his amendment.
Mr. G. BANKES moved to insert the following
words, "not being refreshment reasonably incidental to
the travelling expenses of such voter."
Mr. HILDYARD seconded the amendment.

Lord J. RUSSELL said the object of the clause was
to remove the uncertainty of the law of treating, but if
this amendment were adopted, he was afraid it would
not attain that object, because it was very difficult to
decide what were reasonable refreshments to be allowed
to travellers. He therefore could not assent to the
amendment.

• Sir F. KELLY thought it would be carrying their
lagislation too far to reject this amendment. The house
already decided that reasonable travelling expenses
should be allowed to a voter coming from a distance,
and how could they stop short in allowing him reasonable
refreshment in the course of the journey when it was
long.

After some further discussion the house divided, when
there appeared—

For the amendment
Against it
Majority

. 61
. 113
.--52

The amendment %vas accordingly rejected.
Lord R. GROSVENOR moved to leave out from the
word "refreshment" in line six, to the end of the clause,
iu order to insert the words "shall be deemed an ille
gal act, and the person so offending shall forfeit the suns
of 40s. for each offence to any person who shall sue for
the same, together with full cost of suit," instead thereof.
The amendment was agreed to, after a brief technical
discussion.

Mr. M'MAHON moved to add the following clauses
after clause 14 :—ln case of any indictment or informa-
tion by a priiate prosecutor for any offence against the
provisions of this act, if judgment shill be given for the
' defendant, he shall be entitled to recover from the pro-
secutor the costs sustained by the defendant by reason
of such indictment or information, such costs to be
taxed by the proper officer of the Court in which such
judgment shalt be given. It shall not be lawful for any
Court to order payment of the costs of a prosecutor for
any offence against the provisions of this act, un-
less the prosecutor shall before, or upon the finding
of the indictment, or the granting of the information,
enter into a recognisance, with two sufficient sureties, in
the sum of 2001. (to be acknowledged in like manner as
is now required in cases of writs of certiorari awarded
at the instance of a defendant in an indictment) with
the conditions following, that is to say, that the prose-
cutor shall conduct the prosecution with effect, and
shall pay to the defendant or defendants, in case he or
they shall be acquitted, his or their costs.
Mr. PHINN opposed the clauses, as the principle of
giving security for costs by a prosecutor was unknown
to the English law ; but if it were, the case of bribery
was not one which it ought to apply to.
Sir F. KELLY insisted on the other hand, that
bribery was an exceptional case, and since parties were
liable to be improperly prosecuted for it during the heat
of political excitement, it was only right to recover
their costs. At the same time it should always be pro-
vided that prosecutions for bribery by the Crown should
be exempt from this rule.
After some observations from Mr. HILDYARD.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL opposed the clauses,
believing that it would be unwise to throw any obstacles
in the way of prosecutions for bribery, or they would
never be undertaken at all. He bad, however, no objec-
tion to give the judge the power of granting the defend-
ants costs where he thought the prosecution had been
instituted without sufficient cause, or from malicious
motives.

After some further discussion the clauses were agreed
to, and were ordered to be added to the bill.
Some other clauses were added to the bill, which was
then considered, as amended, and ordered to be read a
third time on Friday next at the evening sitting.
The other twelve o'clock orders were then disposed of,
and the sittings were suspended at four o'clock.

The house resumed at six o'clock.
QUEEN'S MESSAGE.--ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Mr. BOUVERIE having brought up the report of sup-
ply on the vote of credit.
On the question that the resolution be read a second
time,

Lord D. STUART rose to move the addition of the fol-
lowing amendment, of which he had given notice :
" That an humble address be presented to her Majesty, to
return her Majesty the thanks of this house for her most
gracious message, and to assure her Majesty, that her Ma-
jesty, deeming it expedient to provide for any additional
expense which may arise in consequence of the war in
which her Majesty is now engaged against the Emperor of
Russia, may fully rely on the cheerful zeal and constant
affection of her faithful Commons, and to assure her Ma-
jesty that they most readily do make provision according
to her Majesty's wishes, and humbly to pray, that her
Majesty will be graciously pleased n at to prorogue her Par-
liament until she shall have been enabled to afford to this
house snore full information with respect both. to her Ma.-
jesty's relations with foreign powers, and to her views and
prospects in the contest in which her Majesty is engaged."
He had stated last night that he thought it desirable such
a motion should be made, and the occurrences of last night
had convinced him that such a motion was now not only
desirable, but necessary. Probabiy the annals of Parr
liarnent did not record a similar occurrence to that which
the house witnessed with astonishment last night, when
the leader of the Government in that house came down
on a solemn occasion, an 1 not in the heat of contra,
versy, and not in reply to observations made by hii
opponents, but deliberately made an exposition of the
policy of the Government—of the objects which they pro•
posed to attain- in the present war—and then, not after the
lapse of any length of time, but almost within the same
hour, contradicted what he had said before, and give an
explanation which was understood by the house to be a
rtrteactation. (Cries of "Na, no.") It was an explana-
too.so different from the former statement of the noble
" retraetatiee e
lord, that .
ha-knew no word by which to describe it except
stood by the
the opposition one in the
It appeared that almost every
house had 11,4
may that such ;:v
erstood the noble lord as he had been under-
stood
to the usual" the
right hon. member for Bucks, the leader of
kind, he found that (Cries of " No.") He did not hesitate to
un-
derstood in the same general understanding, and on look-
in an organ that favoured
of information in matters of that
ebyin a alln ntoehfre.t
Government,h em the no b I et lordhat
the was
noble
He found from the report
lord said—
. Well, if he was out of ordeer in
Lord J. RUSSELL—Na
journal, he would take the report
Lord D. STUART—Thme.
imreLring by name to that
o f another(Calls o fo
organ w"Order.")hch
tehqeuraellryepfaovrtoeudretdo
havet h e
said
Government.4ut tThehree nisobaoleotlhoerrd
mode
in which the position of Russia is
pendence and integrity of Turkey. The to the Lule-
ya great fortress prepared with all the establishment of
and science, made as impregnable as it cis ombinati
osible on of art
and science to make it, and containing withinp for art
large fleet of line-of-battle ships, ready at any moment
a very
ny moment to
come down with a favourable wind to the 1
Bosphorus—that
I consider is a position so menacing to Turkeythat no
treaty of peace could be considered safe which letheE
peror of Russia in that same menacing position with respectl
to Turkey." (Cheers.) His friends had cheered that euota-
, tion very ranch. They were delighted with it, and so w-e. 4, he,
i He had cheered-the declaration of the noble lord as loudly ea
lany one; but did the noble lord stand by it on its being
repeated? The noble lord afterwards got up and said that
he had made use of no such expressions. (Cries of " No,
'tne," and "Hear, hear.") The noble lord said, " What I
aria was that I thought Russia could not be allowed to
-Maintain the menacing attitude which she has lately done
.:by keeping so large a fleet at Sebastopol." (Hear.) liraS
the declaration the same?
.(Hear.) Did the hon. gentle,' i
man perceive no discrepancy between them ? According j

to the latter explanation, if Russia were to reduce her
Black Sea fleet to one or two sail of the line, that would
bring her within the terms of the latter explanation. How
the noble lord had come to diminish his declaration to that
extent it was not for him to explain. It would seem to an
impartial spectator as if the noble lord had received some
communication from some of his colleagues either in that
house or in another place—perhaps from the noble earl at
the head of the Gevernment, or perhaps the noble lord had
felt, after having spoken out his sensible, bold, manly
opinion in the first instance, that it might not be altogether
in harmony with the opinions of those with whom he was
acting. That showed more than ever that they were govern-
ed now by men who were not in accordance withone another
—not even in agreement with themselves, but vacillating
and distracted in their councils. (Hear.) It appeared to him
that though some of them might be desirous—the noble
lord he believed was one—of carrying on the war with a
vigour suited to the great objects to be attained, there were
others who desired nothing so much as to bring the war to
a conclusion, no matter on what terms. He believed that
the countsy were generally of opinion that the war might
easily have been preventA if there had been at the head
of the Government a man of capacity, firmness, and reso-
lution, who would not have been afraid to meet the
designs of the Czar by bold and determined language. His
belief was that if such language had been used the Czar
would never have made that aggression in Turkey, which,
having been made, had necessarily led to resistance and to
war. If they had had any other minister than Lord Aber-
deen the war, in his opinion, would never have taken place.
He believed that Lord Aberdeen was sincere in his desire
to prevent war, but his measures to prevent it had failed,
and instead of averting it his pusillanimous conduct, un-
worthy the minister of a great country, had rendered the
war necessary and inevitable. He could not, therefore,
feel any respect for the capacity of a minister who, besides
having taken the wrong course, had failed in the means he
had adopted. He believed that the people felt that those
persons who had not the sagacity to perceive danger in the
distance were not likely to have the capacity to meet it
whoa it came near. That opinion was supported by facts.
,l-reat armaments had been sent forth, but no results had
been produced. A belief had sprung up that the Govern-
ment wished to saddle the country with a maximum of ex-
pense, anti with a minimum of results, in order to disgust
them with the war. Oar fleet in the Baltic had captured
some tar, and some exploits had been affected of a gallant
nature, but what victories could we boast of that were
likely to have any decisive effect on the war ? Some lives
had been lost in affairs like that of Gamla Karleby, chiefly
because the fleet had not been provided with vessels of a
small draught of water. In the Black Sea Odessa had
been half bombarded ; and—what was satisfactory, no
doubt we had taken possession of the forts at the
mouth of the Danube. But these things ought to have

been effected long ago. If we had had v,:s;els of shal-
low draught in the Danube we might have pre-
vented the Russians crossing the Danube. The right
hon. baronet the Frat Lord of the Admiralty had made a
grandiloquent statement of a convoy of twelve transports,
laden with provisions and munitions, which had been
taken Loin the Russians; but the production of the des-
patch showed that these twelve transports were miserable
coasters that had been picked up from time to time by our
cruisers; that their crows did not average mare than four
men each ; and that what had been called munit ons of
war was oatmeal. (A laugh.) The result was discontent
among our forces. We had not marched our troops to the
assistance of Omei-Pasha; and at the present moment they
were stopped at Varna for want of the means of transport.
The only satisfactory achievement in the war was by the
Turks. Omer Pasha had shown his ability as a general,
and the Turks their courage as soldiers. The arrogant
Russians, who talked of driving the Turks before them
like chaff, and of taking a military promenade to Constan-
tinople, had been bold enough iu affairs like Sinope, or
against a disabled steamer stranded on their coast, but
had been ignominiously defeated by the barbarian troops
of that power which the Czar talked of as moribund. No
one last year would have dared to prophesy that Russia
would in 1854 be driven across the Danube by the Turkish
troops, unassisted by their allies. Yet such was the fact.
Of late the noble earl at the head of the Government had
talked of carrying on the war with the concurrence of
France and the "other powers." He wished to know what
was meant by the words " other powers." Perhaps Aus-
tria and Prussia were referred to. What assistance had
Austria rendered to us ? We had not experienced the
hostility of Prussia; true, but that was all that could
be said of her. A treaty had been concluded bstween
Austria and the Porte; but why had Austria not entered
the Principalities? They had been told that Austria
would drive the Russians out of the Principalities,
but the Russians had not retired, and were preparing to
d ;fend themselves. What was meant then by the use of
such words, when Austria had not declared war. Every-
thing had been done to conciliate Austria. It had ever
been the policy of the Earl of Aberdeen to conciliate Aus
tria, and to look to Austria as if Austria ought to be the
guile to British councils. It was in reference .to such a
diseoidtion, that the noble lord the Home Secretary, now
a colleague of the Earl of Aberdeen, made use of the re-
markable expression, in speaking of that noble earl, that
the country was guided by the counsels of antiquated
imbecility. When the war brcke out, it, was proposed to
enrol a body of Poles in the Turkish service. He believed
the noble lord the Home Secretary approved of that pro-
posal, but it had been laid aside for giving offence to Aus-
tria, though it now appeared that Austria did not object
to it. It would no doubt be a great advantage to have
Austria on our side. Let the allied forces once att .ck

Sebastopol, as the noble lord talked of their doing, and
they would soon find Austria on their side. (Hear, hear.)
But so long as the troops of Russia were able to set at de-

dance the allied forces of England and France, so long
.vould Austria be unwilling to declare war against her
Now, the hon. member for the West Riding, who in speak-
ing of him had used the expression of " his hon. and de-
luded friend," but in whose case, he might return the com-
pliment by calling him his hon. and philo-Russian friend,
had observed that the contest in which we were now engaged
was not. one favourable to the cause of oppressed nationali-
ties. But was not the Emperor of Russia one of the great-
est enemies of nationality? Had not he crushed the
liberties of Poland and of Hungary, and would it not be
desirable that that arch-enemy of freedom should as far as
possible be humbled ? His hon. friend had spoken of crum-
pling up Russia, but he (Lord D. Stuart) could not
see that we had as yet succeeded in making any impression
whatever upon that power. Such being the position of
affairs, after four mouths of war, a general distrust of the
honesty and energy of the Government in prosecuting
hostilities had begun to spread throughout the country.
The people of England had begun to entertain fears that we
may even be hurried into some ignominious, unstable, and
unsafe peace; and that the House of Commons may com-
bine with the Government for that end by permitting the
war to be carried on, as had hitherto been the case, with-
out vigour or energy. Under these circumstances he had
thought it proper to take the course which he had that
evening adopted, and for that course he might observe
that he had the authority of precedent. A motion similar
to that which he had submitted to the house had been
made by Mr. Dunning in the year 1780, by Mr. Erskine in
1783, and by Mr. C. Grey, afterwards Earl Grey, in 1805.
The noble lord concluded by making the motion of which
he had given notice.
Mr. S. HERBERT said the noble lord who had just sat
down had concluded his speech by referring to precedents,
in order to justify the course which he had that evening
thought it desirable to adopt► Upon the ground of prece-
dent ho had no complaint to make of the noble lord. Simi-
lar motions had been made upon questions of natures the
most diverse ; but they were distinguished from that of
the noble lord by the peculiarity that they had been brought
forward by opponents of the Government as a direct cen-
sure upon its acts, and as an expression of want of confi-
dence in its administration of affairs. He could only say,
that if the noble lord had that evening thrown down a chal-
lenge, the Government were ready to take it up—to offer
the noble lord battle upon his own terms, and to—abide by
that decision at which, with respect to their conduct of
the war, the House of Commons—the representative
of the opinions of the country—might arrive. Before he pro-
ceeded, however, to deal with the speech of the noble lord,
he should wish to offer a few observations to the house
with reference to some statements which in the discussion

of the evening previous had been made by the hon. mem-
ber for Aylesbury (Mr. Layard). That hon. gentleman,
having made some quotations from a letter which he said
he had received from the East, had gone on to remark that
the Duke of Wellington having complained very loudly at
the commencement of the Peninsular war ( f the great de-
ficiency which existed in the organisation of the commis-
sariat department, hail, by the application of the high ad-
ministrative ability which he possessed, brought that de-
partment to a state of the utmost perfection towards the
conclusion of the campaign. But the hon. gentleman had
gone further, and observed that the admirable system
which had been framed under the Duke of Wellington had
at the conclusion of the late war been suddenly alt-red, if
net completely abolished; so that the fruits of the Duke
of Wellington's labours had been lost to the country.
Where the hon. member had found the materials upon
which to base that statement, he (Mr. S. Herbert) could
not say; but, in reply to the hon. member, he should
simply state that that system which the Duke of Welling-
ton had succeeded in bringing to perfection towards the
end of the war still continued to remain unchanged, It
was true that in England the commissariat had been alto-
gether abolished, but the system of the Duke of Welling-
ton had been maintained throughout our colonies exacCy
upon the same footing as that upon which that illus-
trious personage had placed it. The only change, in
fact, that had been mule in connection with the sub-
ject hart Consisted in substituting for the heel of the
commissariat department a responsible minister of the
Crowa—a change which had been deemed neceesary for the
welfare of the service and the interests of the country.
The person whom the Government hail selected to conduct
the affairs of that department was Mr. Commissary-General
Fielder, who had served under the Duke of Wellington,
and in whore the greatest confidence had ever been placed
by his distinguished chief. So far, therefore, from the
system of the Duke of Wellington having been upset, that
system had been, as he had shown, maintained in full
vigour. " But," said the hon. member for Aylesbury, " you
Kent out last autumn to Turkey a gentleman connected with
the commissariat for the purposoof procuring information,
and all that he has done has been to write an essay
on the tuauners and customs of the inhabitants of that
co un try." Now, the observations of the honourable
gentleman tended to induce the house to believe that the
pamphlet which had been written by the gentleman in
question treated of every subject rather than that with re-
spect to which it was desirable that information should be
procured. He (Mr. S. Herbert) should, however,
merely quote, in reply to the statement of thehon. member
some of the marginal heads, indicating the subject matter
contained
were in e
s several
„pasraugprpaly of food,"phsoft Price the pamphlet.ceof
sheep," "
thef ollows :_
Where to be found," " What are the best
means of
" What weight upon an ass," Sec. In short, there
They
transport," " What weight you can put upon a
camel,"
was containeddetails with respect to subjects upon which
most minute
might desire to obtain in the work in question a variety of the
the heads of the commissariat
hadin in.
for Aylesbury himself, and
that he had bean kind enough to make some correctsubmitted to the hon. member
ions in
'
formation • and he believed that the pamphlet been
it, witla the view of making it useful to those engaged in
the public service. But the hon. member bad further said,
"You sent out only one man for the purpose of procuring
the necessary information." His (Mr. S. Herbert s) answer
to that statement was , that eight or nine persons had been
sent with that view, and that one gentleman had been
ordered to put himself in communicetion with Mr. Cal-
vert, the very individual who was best fitted to give such
o
information as might be
required. The lion. member had
made those statements, relying upon the truth of letters
which he had received from persons who in many instances
werein
werenot
believed themselves
to upon
perteil the rumours which reached them, and whose asser-
tions they were made
,by individuals residing in the country where the circum-
becor ther correct
s, po
bte,ea but who who merely re-
I stances narrated in those letters were supposed to have
Occurred.- He Should give an instance in corroboration of
the accuracy of his opinion upon that subject. It bad been

stated by a gentleman connected with the Ordnance De- I
partment, who had taken occasion to cast blame -upon the
cowl tnt of that department, that we had sent out a largo
number of 6-pounders. lint, with the exception of the
case of the Horse Artillery, would the house believe that
no such thin,,' as a 6-pounder had been sent out at all ;
upon the contrary, 9-pounders only had been transmitted
to the seat of war. He maintained, therefore, that we
should be extremely careful before we agreed to accept
statements coming from abroad as positively correct.
The hon. member for Aylesbury had also referred to
the medical department ; but he (Mr. S. Herbert)
must say, that if that and the commissariat depart-
ment were so greatly neglected as they were repre-
sented to be, he was at a loss to account for the extremely
good health which prevailed among the troops in the
East. Taking the whole of toe army into account,
there were in hospital bat four per cent. out of the
number, and out of that 4 per cent. nearly one-third were
under treatment for diseases which could nut be said to
have been contracted in consequence of any deficiency in
the commissariat arrangement, but to which men were as
liable in the streets of London as iu the field. At the pre-
sent moment, in short, the health of our troops at Varna
was quite as good as the health of the army in any part of
England. (Hear, hear.) There were, however, he might
observe, certain situations in which troops ~.ight be placed,
in which no care or providence, no matter how great,
could keep them in good health. The hon. member for
Aylesbury had, among other things, contrasted the arrange-
ments made for the comfort and efficiency of our troops
with those which 41 been made upon the part of the
French Government with reference to their army. Now,
there could be no doubt that those two great armies, both
of them equipped in the best possible manner, must have
much to learn one from the other—(hear, hoary —nor could
he state that no fault had been committed in fitting out
our troops. He was not such a pedant as to suppose that,
in a case in which the greatest expedition was necessary,
everything had been done in the most perfect manner.
(Hear, hear.) Sir W. Napier—a great authority upon
such matters—had observed that mistakes upon such occa-
sions were the rule, and not the exception. He might,
however, state with reference to the subject, that every
effort had been used to fit out our troops in the best man-
mer possible, and that the arrangements connected with
our expedition to the East might be favourably contrasted
with those of any similar movement. He should, with the
permission of the house, read a letter from one of the very
ablest paymasters in the service, which was dated the 19th
of Juue, 1851., The writer, in alluding to the English and
French, expressed himself as follows :
" I am happy to say that a most excellent feeling exists.
Our army is well fed, and there is not the shadow of a
complaint; the supplies sent out by the Government hate
been a great boon and are highly appreciated; they are
all good of their kind, and, as Lord Raglan has most judi-
ciou-ly put the issue under regimental arrangements, the
moat perfect confidence and satisfaction has been the result
of the arrangements. Had it been through other channels,
the regimental authorities would not have been so inte-
rested in the goons working of the system, and the men are,
moreover, more satisfied to be dealt with regimentally ; the
co.nplaint can be rem:died, if there should be one, without
I going iur.her—indeed, all works well."

He should also r ad other leWrs from persons, who, in
consequence of the positions which they occupied in the
army, had the best means of becoming acquainted with
the events which were taking place. One of our officers
wrote to the following effect :
"No one can believe, who has not seen it, of what value
Chobham encampment has proved to the troops. I am
quite sure the health of the troops is in a great degree
owing to the knowledge, now beco..ning general, of a good
system of encamping. Osman Pacha, a most intelligent
man, with whom we communicate on all the quartering of
the army in and near Scutari, has frequently told us he
could not conceive why we had so little illness, and that
no Turks could have remained on the Scutari Hill so long
in camp with impunity. We can only answer him that he
should see the care and attention of our officers, and the ad-
vantage of our white cap covers over the senseless fez which
his people persist in wearing on their heads, with no pro-
tection for the eyes or back of the head, and he would
learn the true cause of the difference between us. General
Furey called here yesterday to see the barracks, the 95th
happened to be parading in their fatigue frocks, which he
much admired. I asked --- to wheel them into line,
and it ended in General Forey being so pleased that he
asked for two or three movements, which the regiment
executed admirably. lam always glad they should see
what our interior really is, and how little we do for
show."

He should trouble the house with only one other letter,
whioh had beon written by a man whose character must
.ecure for his words a respectful consideration. In refer-
ring to the opinions which the French officers had formed
of our troops, the manner in which they were equipped,
encemped, and fel, the writer said—
" Seeing UM abuse that i 1 lavished upon every branch of
the British army, and that we are told all day long that
the arrangements and equipments of the French army are
in every way superior, 1 was surprised to findthat we were
viewed in a , different light by officers of experience in
another service, and that justice which is denied to us by
many of our own countrymen is really conceded to us by
foreigners."
He had goneinto those details, being of opinion that he was
in no small degree responsible for the manner in which our
troops had been equipped, and he felt assured that the
house would extend to him its pardon for having entered
at such length into topics which were not immediately con•
nected with the question under their notice. (Cheers.)
Passing from these details, he wished to know whether it
was true —as had been asserted by the hon. member for the
West Riding and by the noble lord who had j net spoken
that, although a powerful armament had been sent to the
East, yet that no great results had thereby been up to the
present moment achieved, and that our armies had won no
laurels? War had been declared upon the 29th of March,
and the noble lord seemed to be astonished that Russia
had not been " crumpled up" in the four months which had
since elapsed.. That consummation had not been attained ;
but was it right to say that nothing whatever had during
those four months been effected ? An hon. gentleman
stated last night that a great number of accidents had
taken place in connection with the expedition to the East,
and that we had succeeded in monopolising more than our
share of those accidents. Our troops have certainly been
subjected to casualties in the course of the operations
which in the north and south of Europe we have been em-
ployed in carrying out. The Tiger had been lost—a vessel
had been destroyed by fire as she was conveying a portion
of the soldiers of the 6th Dragoons to the East ; and in
alluding to that loss he might be permitted to say, that
however long might be the duration of the war—however
brilliant the actions which in its progress might take place
—no man's name would be more honoured by Englishmen
than that of the gallant officer, who, with none of the
glorious excitement of the battle-field to excite him to the
performance of heroic deeds, faced in cold blood death in
its most frightful shape in order to save the lives of those
whom he commanded, and who, notwithstanding the soli-
citations of his own soldiers, refused to leave the sinking
ship while one living soul remained on board her to receive
his generous aid. (Loud cheers.) It was also true that
grievous casualties had occurred in the Baltic—that a
boat's crew had been sacrificed in the endeavour to cut out
from beneath the enemy's batteries the enemy's ships. If,
however, such events as those were subjects for regret, we
should bear in mind the spirit and the gallantry which
they had evoked. (Cheers.) If it were true that the cou-
rage of our seamen amounted almost to foolhardiness we
should not forget that the great renown of the British
navy had been acquired by a series of exploits such as
those to which he had just been adverting; and, instead
of giving way to useless regrets, weshould rejoice that that
spirit, whose manifestation had raised this country to the
summit of fame as a naval power, still continued to exist,
brilliant and unchangeable. (Renewed cheering.) But in
answer to the statement that no practical result had as yet
been brought about by British arms in the present con-
test, ho would ask, was it nothing to have established in
four months is complete, an effectual, and an irresistible
blockade of the enemy's ports? Those gentlemen who
spoke
the uponghltilfyetim
e that h
the
e subject
gallant
Nelson seemed
to
hadforget
been
passed
one-
halfs
ed
s
in maintaining a blockade. (Hear, hear.) If the
country expected that we ought to hear at once of vic-
tory following victory over an enemy who dared not
meet our fIeAR, why, then, the country expected the
performance of impossibilities from those gallant sea-
men who hail already demonstrated that want of
courage or want of enterprise formed no part of the
reason why these requite hee, up p to the present moment,
not been attained. (Cheers.) But has nothing else except
the institution of a blockade been effected in the Black
Sea ? How many pounds sterling, he would ask, had been
spent by Russia during the last quarter of a century in
erecting along the shores of Circassia those forts which
constituted the chains by which she had kept the Cir-
cassian' in thraldom? All these forts had fallen into our
hands.
Mr. LAYARD—They were abandoned by Russia.
Mr. S. HERBERT continued—The hon. member did
not seem satisfied with the fact that we had it all our own
way. (A laugh.) It was said that the people of England
liked to hear of a good battle, and of the sacrifice to a vast
extent of human life. That, however, was not, he be-
lieved, the general feeling of the English people, and he
felt assured that they rejoiced to find that these fortresses
on the coast of Circassia had fallen into our hands without
the loss of a single man, with an account of whose fall the
pages of the Gazette might be adorned. But bad nothing
more been effected? The noble lord the member for
Marylebone had stated that the Turks had manifested the
greatest c,)urage and fortitude anti skill in the present
cent3st, but 4 was a matter of astonishment to all Europe
net armies s 3 small es theirs had not only maintained their
position, but achieved great successes against overwhelming
numbers. Such was the fact; but bad that result been
attained solely and entirely by the forces of Turkey ? Had
the Russian armies no enemies but the soldiers of the
Sultn.n to encounter? Was it nothing to have wrested from
the Russians those means of communication by which they
were enabled to supply the troops with provisions? Had
the closing up of the Black Sea no share in producing results
so favourable to Turkey ? Ho was not aware whether the
noble lord had studied the history of the present campaign,
or _whether he had observed the manner in which its
operations had been carried out? At the present moment
.the Dantabe, Sebastopol, end, in fact, the whole coast of
Russia on the Black Sea eves blockaded. No provisions,
no ammunition could be conveyed to her armies save by.
land across the full extent of Bessarabia ; and he had been
informed that when provisions were being transported by
land for the Russian troops, the air became tainted by the
' putridity, in consequence, no doubt, of the length of
time occupied in transmitting them to-their destination.
The Russian Government had been compelled to resort, in
order to provision their army, to the use of small carts
drawn by bulleeks in a country where the roads were
extremely bad, and where the distance to be traversed was
so great that by the time the carts arrived at the camp the
bullocks themselves had consumed nearly all tho grain, and
were reduced to a condition so lean as to render them unfit
for human food. Now these, he would venture to say,
were no trifling results, although they might partake of
tone of that brilliancy by which some hon. members.
wished all our movements to be characterised. (Hear.)
But he should likewise say that Englishmen might china
some share in the defence of Silistria through that young
man (hear, hear)—Captain Butler, or Major Butler, as he
should like to call him, although he had never heard of his
promotion, or of his having been placed by her Majesty in
the Guards. (Hear, hear.) He said that young Irishman
—(hea.r,hear)—displayed during that siege qualities which
marked him out for certain eminence—not merely dogged
courage, but likewise a remarkable power of command.
He, a stranger, accompanied by another young officer,,
having gone to a strange town, although not speaking the
Turkish language, hail by his energy and determination so
imposed on the men by whom he hail been surrounded,
that, in point of fact, he had almost had the command of,
that garrison. It was by the pertinacity and energy with
which he had pressed his councils on them, that the sur-
render of the external forts, v hick formed the keys of
Silistria, he'd been prevented, and that that glorious sue-
cess had boon accomplished. (Cheers.) The noble lord ,
said that he had no confidence in the Government. We,
(continued Mr. Herbert) meet him fairly upon that issue. '

(Hear. We are called a ministry on sufferance ; and it is
true that, feeling the deep responsibility which lay on us,
and the necessity after having entered on this war of put-
ting the country in a position, financially and strategati ii
-
cally, which should enable it to urge the war with success,
we felt, unsupported as we were by the house ou domestic
measures, that it was our duty to continue to hold the
reins of office. We have been met by contumely and in-
sult, but it is for the House of Commons to decide this
question. If the house does not choose to have a govern-
ment on sufferance, and if we do not choose to be a govern-
ment on sufferance, let the house manfully and explicitly
declare its opinions upon that head. We are prepared to
abide, as we do abide with confidence, on the decision to
which they might come. (The right hon. gentleman re-
sumed his seat amidst considerable cheering.)
Mr. LA.YA.RD insisted that the construction put by the
house upon the words of Lord John Russell, on the pre-
vious evening, with respect to the menacing position of
Sebastopol, was the correct one. The general itapresion
was that nothing short of the destruction of that fortress
would be satisfactory to the Government; but when the
noble lord came to explain his meaning it appeared that
all that was meant was that Russia was not to be allowed
to have so large a fleet at Sebastopol. The object of Aug
tria was clearly to drive Russia from the principalities, and
nothing more, and it was much to be feared that in that
policy England would become entangled. It was a great
error to count upon the alliance of Austria at all ; but
looking at home he had great confidence in Lord John
Russell, but none whatever in the Earl of Aberdeen.
Mr. WILKINSON contended for the identity of the
two statements of Lord John Russell.
Colonel DUNNE deprecated the delays which had taken
place in the advance of the allied armies.
Admiral BERKELEY repelled the charge of unneces-
sary delay, and denied that the Government had at all tied
up the hands of Admiral Napier in the Baltic. The fact
that nothing great had been as yet attempted was to be
attributed to the formidable nature of the fortifications.
Mr. F. SCULLY defended the Earl of Aberdeen and
the Government.

Sir J. SHELLEY said that a strong feeling of distrust
pervaded the country with respect to the Eull of Aber-
deen, and he could only view the amendment as a vote of
want of confidence in the noble earl. While supporting
the amundment, he did not moan to imply a want of con-
fidence in the other .members of the Government, for he
believed many ot them were most anxious to carry the
war to an advantageous result.
Sir J. WALSh opposed the amendment.
Mr. M. MILNES also opposed the amendment, but ex-
essed his belief that her Majesty's Ministers would see
the propriety of calling Parliament togethet again at a
very early

Mr. IiILDYARD deprecated a statement made by
Admiral Berkeley, to the effect that Cronstadt was im-
pregnable, as calculated to produce most pernicicus effects
throughout Europe.

Admiral BERKELEY said he had received private
letters from officers in the Baltic to the effect that Cron-
stadt could not be taken ; but the French Government
were sending out reinforcements, and whatever could be
done by gallant men would be done, he had no doubt, in
the Baltic.
Colonel BLAIR said he would support the amendment,
not so much as a vote of want of confidence in the Govern-
ment, as of a declaration of the necessity of having an
autumnal session of Parliament.
Mr. PETO had no hesitation as to the course he should
pursue on the vote before the house. If the fleet had been
placed in a position of jeopardy the house might have
shown a want of confidence in the Government. But no-
thing of the kind had been done in the Baltic or the Black
Sea. Few persons could be aware of the difficulties that
beset the Government. He (Mr. Pete) had always found
when he had his people ready half his work was done.
Four months had elapsed, and nothing had occurred to
shake the confidence of the country in the Government, or
in the conduct of the war. To tie the hands of the Go-
vernment, however, was a want of confidence, which they
could not tolerate for a single moment. The course pur-
sued in that house was mischievous to the country, as
well as unjust to the Government ; for it compelled them
to disclosures which, perhaps, ought not to be made, in
their own justification He believed that it was nothing,
but a high sense of moral duty which had kept the Govern-
ment in their position, under the continued impatience of
certain supporters of theirs, whom it was his (Mr. Peto's)
only sorrow to find still sitting on the same side of the
house with himself. (Oh, and laughter.) If there were
to be opposition, and a vote of want of confidence from
gentlemen opposite, he could perfec,ly understand it. It
was quite fair and right. When the right lion. member
for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) g it up in his place and
attacked the ministry—as he always did—fairly, openly,
aid manly, he could well' understand that; but when a
noble lord, sitting on the ministerial side of the house,
profeKing to be a,supperter of the Government, and ut-
tering all manner' of philanthropic sentiment with regard
to nationalities, resorted to the language of attack, I.e
must say that the uoole lord showed little acquaintance
with the real feelings of the country, which, in his (Mr.
Peto's) opinion were decidedly in favour of leaving the
conduct of the war in the hands of the Government, with
the firm conviction that they would do what was right
under the circumstances. (Hear, hear.) Lot the noble
lord at once avow that he was no longer a supporter of
the Government, and had no farther confidence in them
(Hear.) That was a course of policy he could understand,
nd so would the country, which had given the ministry
its most unreserved confidence, in the belief that they
would carry the war to a successful issue. (Divide, divide.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—There are but few things which I
find it necessary to say in this stage of the debate. I will
not certainly accept the invitation of my hon. friend the
member for Aylesbury (Mr. Layard) that I should make
over again the speech I made last night. I certainly
do not think it necessary to give any further explanation
of the statement I then made. (Hear.) I have seen this
morning the reports of what I then stated. Those which
I have seen appear to me to be accurate, and I am quite
willing to abide by that. statement. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. member for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) following
an ather hon. gentleman who said that the object of the war

was the dismemberment of Russia, proclaimed last night
that our objects were the destruction of Sebastopol, the
conquest of the Crimea, and, I think, the transference of
the Crimea to some other power. Such was the inference
the hon. gentleman drew from what I said; but it was a
perfectly gratuitous inference, and the statement which I
made did not bear out that construction. But we have, in
fact, every kind of opponent to deal with ; some who tell
us that it is wrong to go to war for the dismemberment of
Russia, and others who tell us that we are not seriously at
war, and that we are unwilling to do any great injury to
Russia. In this state of affairs, with expressions rife of
various kinds, I certainly thought it was due to the House
of Commons, nowalmost upon the eve of prorogation, that
I should enter more than is usually done into the question
of the objects of the war, and into the present state of our
foreign relations. I did so as fully as it was possible for
me to do so—(hear, hear)—and I am willing to bear the
consequences, if I made that statement with too little re-
serval. to the country. I believe that in carrying on a war
in which the feelings of this country are engaged, it is not
imprudent to state to the country at large what are the
general objects that we have in view, and what is the na-
tional purpose that we hope to attain. My hon. friend the
member for Aylesbury says he wishes there was some
statesman who could take a statesman-like view of the ob-
jects of the war, and that would take that view which a
statesman alone can take of the importance of the object
and the magnitude of the contest. Well, if we who belong
to the Ministry are entirely benighted in this respect; if,
in all the debates which have occurred, we have never pro-
perly expressed why wo went to war, and what should
be our objects in going to war, I was in hopes that the hon.
gentleman, who is so much more enlightened, and who has
calculated the interests of all the powers in Europe, would
have told us what these objects should be, and in what way 1
we were to carry on this contest. But he has not, am sorry
to say, so enlightened us upon the subject. It appears to
me, indeed, that the case might be generally stated in very
simple language, and without any very great profundity of
view. (Hear.) The Sultan of Turkey is attacked by the
Emperor of Russia. Is he unjustly attacked? Yes ; ho
is
unjustly attacked. Have we any interest in defending
him9Yes, we have an interest in defending him. (Hear
hear.) And there, as it appears to me, is the very simple,
plain case upon which the minds of tae people of this
country are satisfied, without those profound calculations
and those mysterious views which my hon. friend has in
his own breast, but which he so carefully conceals from us
who are his inferiors, no doubt, in experience and under-
standing. (Ministerial cheers, and laughter.) Then, nith
regard to the conduct of the war, in stating the reasons for
taking this vote, I refrained purposly from entering into
any dfence against those generally anonymous accusations
which have been made ag dust that department of the Go.
vernment which sent out our fleet and army, and those who
are in command of that fleet. No such accusations hail
been made in this house, and I thought it not unbecoming
my position to wait and see if any such would be made. I
am sorry to say that some of those unfounded accusations
have been repeated here. But my right hon. fliers(' the
Secretary at War (Mr. S. Herbert) has furnished so ample
an explanation upon that subject that it is quite unneces-
sary for me to add one word respecting it. We all knew
—at least we ought to have known—that one hon. gentle-
man, the bon member for Surrey, hinted out to us, if we
had not found it out for ourselves, that this is a war not
similar to many wars in which we have beers engaged.
Had Sir Charles Napier, for instance, instead of having to
encounter dangerous shoals, granite built forts, !inflow
channels, and continual fogs, gone to distant seas, I have
no doubt that before this time a whole archipelago of
islands would have yielded ,to his flag. But we have in
this case a sort of rhinocerous to attack, and it is not a
very easy thing to penetrate the hide of such an animal.
( [Tear.) With regard to the Black Sea, it is an inconsider-
able advantage that those forts which Russia has for many
years been constructing, v, ith the view of maintaining and
extending her power iu the countries bordering upon
that
sea, have been yielded without a blow being struck by
the Emperor, who, whatever others may have felt has
himself confes ed that the inferiority of his forces in the
Black Sea was a reason why there should be an armistice
on its shores. There is one other topic which has been
dwelt upon both last night and to night, respecting which
I think it is absolutely necessary I should address a few
words to the house. Some hon. members have singled out
the noble earl at the head of the Administration, and have
made him the peculiar object of their attacks. Now, what-
ever may be the constitutional nature of this motion—and
I do not deny that, as a motion of want of confidence, it is
constitutional—yet there is nothing constitutional in the
attempt to separate the Cabinet from the noble earl who
is at its head, and to make him alone responsible for that
in respect to which all his colleagues must share his re-
sponsibility. With regard to the general measures of the
Government, those measures have been considered step by
step by those advisers of her Majesty who are usually called
tile Cabinet, and when decisions have been adopted all the
colleagues of Lord Aberdeen are alike responsible to this
house and to the country with that noble lord. (Hear.)
With regard again to particular departments—with regard
to the Minister of War, and with regard to the First Lord
of the Admiralty—who aro deeply charged with the con-
duct of this war—l am sure lam satisfid in saying that
there is no measure which they have opposed, in order to
impart greater vigour to the operations of war, and thus
ensure the success of that war, which my noble friend at
the head of the Government has not zealously encouraged
and supported in the Cabinet. (Cheers.) That my noble
friend for a long time beloved in the possibility of main-
taining peace, and wished to avert the calamity of war, is,
I think, a reproach which ho can very well be:ar ; but with
regard to any delay that took place, or th et has been charged
to have taken place, in commencing that war, those who
acted with Lord Aberdeen as his colleagues are alike
chargeable with him for such delay. Let Ilse remark,
however, that that which was for souse time the great sub-
ject of attack namely, that when the Pruth was passel
by the Russians we did not at once advise her Majesty to
declare war, or to take such steps as would show that we
were determined to encounter the risk of hostilities--that