The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-06 00:00:00

posed to know something about the manufacture of
rockets and shells, were out of charity recommended by M.
Kossuth to Mr. Hale, who consented to give them work
at eighteen shillings a week. A great deal has been made
of the statement of these men, that they were desired
not to talk in public houses of what was going on in the
factory at Rotherhithe. Now really, sir, I see nothing in
this which is not capable of satisfactory explanation. The
men might be told not to talk in public-houses, because
the work carried on might be misrepresented, as it un-
questionably has been, for I maintain that the Govern-
ment has been grossly deceived and misinformed. (Hear,
hear.) Well, sir, having heard the evidence of these poli-
tical refugees, Mr. Henry resolved not to decide the case
summarily ; in fact he was again bewildered, and being
unable to extricate himself from the difficulty by consult-
ing the " Encyclopaedia Britannica," he wisely deter-
mined to send the case over to the Surrey magistrates,
who, sitting close to Vauxhall, he thought would be good
judges of the matter. (A laugh.) So stands the case at
the present moment. Now then, sir, I would ask, is this a
worthy or a dignified course for any Government of this
country to pursue? (Hear, hear.) If M. Kossuth and
Mr. Hale have been guilty of any conspiracy to levy war
against any of those countries with which we are now upon
terms of amity, I say indict them boldly and openly for
that conspiracy ; but if they have not been guilty of such
an offence, do not rake up an old act of Parliament that
has slept for the last 120 years even with regard to the
making of fireworks. (Hear, hear.) But what are all
these proceedings for ? Nothing, lam sure, can be more
unpalatable to the great body of the people of this country,
who look upon the whole transaction as far as it has gone
with unmitigated disgust. (Cheers.) I believe it is bring-
ing the Government, to whom we all wish well, and to
whom we are disposed to give a fair trial, into such disre-
pute with the mass of the people as few Governments have
experienced. I ask, sir, who is this transaction to please ?
m
The popular impression is that it is to please some foreign
Government—to please the Austrian Government ; and,
indeed, I think we have sufficient evidence of the fact in
t is
0(
nHee
of
(Hear.)
noble This lords a pointth the
t
somewhich
o theheg foreignt eecall
thejo u
attention
Sec-
retary of State for the Home Department. Very recently
a paragraph appeared in a Frankfort paper, headed, "The
English Police the Spies of Foreign Despots." It ran as
follows :—" It is now confirmed that the Prussian police
were most efficiently assisted in the late political arrests at
Berlin and elsewhere by repeated communications from the
police at London, without which many of their disclosures
might not have been made ; and we see a proof of the good
faith of the British Government when, through Lord
Westmoreland, it assume the Cabinet of Vienna that it
will watch over the conduct of the refugees • and we learn
from other sources that the London police have for some
time kept a list of all the fugitives residing there, and
watch over their communications with the conti-
nent." What, sir, must Europe think of England unless
she gives forth some contradiction of such injurious
statements? (Hear, hear.) It is quite right that the
police of London, or any other police, should communicate
with foreign Governments, in the event of persons seeking
refuge here being guilty of felony, or murder, or something
of that sort ; but the Government has no right, or the
police have no right, to communicate with foreign Govern-
ments upon political subjects—upon any political crime
that is committed here, or may have been committed
abroad ; and, indeed, our police have no right to commu-
nicate with the police of foreign Governments at all. They
were not instituted for that purpose. (Hear, hear.) But
now I am to show that Austria had really something to do
with these seizures at Rotherhithe. In the Augsburg
Gazette of the 14th April—remember Mr. Halo's property
was seized on the 13th—there appeared an article, dated
Munich; April 12, and expressed in the following terms : - -
"At London revolution is allowed to take counsel and fill
her arsenals with destructive weapons, rockets, bsc." Now,
I think it is natural to infer from this that some commu-
nication had passed between certain parties in authority
here and the informants of the Augsburg Gazette. (Hear,
hear.) So, sir, the Times was not, after all, far wrong
when it said that the Government of this country had been
urged by Austria to look after the refugees, and that it
was determined to show its willingness to do so. (Hear,
hear.) Now, sir, think her Majesty's Ministers, when
they are applied to by Austria or any other foreign power
on the subject of political fugitives, ought to tell the Go-
vernment appealing to them to look at the free institutions
of this country—ought to remind them of the confiscations
of Lombardy, and the cruelties and tortures that recently
disgraced Milan and Mantua—ought to let them know that
such is not the way to gain the affections of their subjects
—and ought to return for answer to their request, that in-
terference with refugees in this country will never be sub-
mitted to by the people of England. (Cheers.) No, sir,
we want none of their Radetskys here. (Hear, hear.) I,
therefore, beg to ask whether her Majesty's Ministers
think it worth while to pursue this prosecution any further
against Mr. Hale ? Mr. Hale admits that in making
rockets and shells he has violated an old act of Parliament.
He has already paid a penalty of N. 145., of which only
one-half goes to the Crown, the other being paid over to
the informer ; and I want to know if it is the intention of
the Government to carry the prosecution further, either
against Mr. Hale or against any other person whatever?
(Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, my hon. friend has treated
this matter with his usual admixture of jocularity and argu-
ment, and certainly if there were an old act of Parliament
for prohibiting moral squibs and crackers, I think my hon.
Mend. would come within itspros;sions. (A laugh.) Now, sir,
my hou. friend charges me with being an organ and instru-
• • instru-
ment of foreign powers for the purpose of exercising here a
foreign police over persons in this country, and in support
of that accusation he quotes passages' that he has found in
foreign newspapers, as well as passages from an English
journal. Now I beg, in the first place, to d'sclaim any re-
sponsibility es to any thing said of me in any newspaper,
whether British or foreign ; and if my hon. friend had had
his attention directed as much as mine has happened to be,
and from time to time, to passages in foreign newspapers
in which my name was mentioned, I think he would have
found that the weight of accusation and of calumny was
very much of a different kind from that which he has
quoted. (Hear, hear.) I was told the other day that in
tho searches recently made in Italy there was a set of dag-
gers found of English manufacture, and that the authori-
ties wore indignant and incensed at the detestable and
diabolical conduct of the man who had been Minister for
Foreign Affairs in England, for on these very daggers his
name was inscribed. (A laugh.) They said " There it is
plain enough—Palmer and Son. Oh, the execrable revo-
lutionist ! to send destructive weapons inscribed with his
own name into Italy." (Great laughter). My hon. friend'
has indulged in a groat deal of humour in regard to the
prosecutions which I have thought it my duty to institute.
Now, I did not in the least disguise—l have never dis-
guised the ground upon which I thought it my duty to in-
stitute these prosecutions. It was not that Mr. Hale had
a few pounds of gunpowder in his possession, or carried on
the trade of making shells and rockets for ordinary pur-
poses ; but when I was informed that there was a great
collection of warlike stores accumulated in an out of the
way place, under circumstances of secrecy, and when I
coupled that with other circumstances which tended to
show that there was a purpose, the object of which was be-
yond the limits of this country, and not connected with
the legitimate interests of commerce, I felt it my duty to
inquire whether these proceedings were or were not con-
trary to law. (Hear, hear.) I was told they wore con-
trary to law, and therefore I think I should have neglected
my duty in the office which I have the honour to hold if I
had not taken such steps as the law appeared to authorise
for the purpose of putting a stop to those proceedings.
(Hear, hear.) I hold that in doing that I have consulted
the honour and dignity of the country. (Hear, hear.) My
colleagues aid myself, and not only the members of the pre-
sent Government, but also the members of the late, and in-
deed of all governments, have repeatedly declared in Parlia-
ment, that while, on the one hand, foreigners who take re-
fuge in this country aro entitled to every possible protection
which the laws and freedom of this realm can afford, it was
the duty of the Government, on the other hand, to pre-
vent any foreigner, as well as any British subject from,
pursuing or being concerned in any proceeding or under-
taking for the purpose of threatening the tranquility of
foreign States. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, my hon. friend
has made merry about the question whether the gunpowder
found at Rotherhithe was really gunpowder or not. That
question havine been decided by a legal and competent
authority, I think I may say that I never heard of such a
quibble as that by which it was attempted to be shown-
that the substance in question was not gunpowder. I think
that the magistrate was perfectly, right in his decision.
With regard to the rockets, my honourable friend asks
me whether it is the intention of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to continue the proceedings which have been com-
menced. Now I have no hesitation in saying that we have
no desire to press hardly in any way whatever on Mr.
Hale ; and I have no hesitation, either, in saying, as to
the last interrogatory of my hon. friend, that the evidence
we have received does not bear out or justify any pro-
ceedings against any other person, whether British or
foreign, except Mr. Hale. (Hear, hear.) But, with regard
to Mr. Hale, lot the house remember hew the matter
stands. The act under which Mr. Hale was proceeded
against prohibits any person from making, or using, or
selling any rockets, unless they have the consent of the
Ordnance, with the exception always of the Artillery Com-
pany and the Militia, who are permitted to make and use
rockets for the purposes of war. Under that act there are
two methods of proceeding, the one by summary convic-
tion before a magistrate, and the other by trial by indict-
ment before a court and jury. We adopted the first of
these courses as the simplest and the shortest, and the
least troublesome to any party. The case was opened ;
the evidence against Mr. Hale was satisfactory ; but the
magistrate then stopped the proceedings, and said that he
thought they ought to be referred to another court, in
I order that the matter might be tried by a jury. Now,
sir, I hold that, upon general principles, it is a Vex?' bad
precedent to commence proceedings against any individual,
and then to stop them before they come to trial. (Hear,
hear.) It is liable to groat abuse ; for you may begin pro-
I ceedings without any justifiable cause, for the purpose of
causing annoyance and trouble to an individual, and then,
if, in order to avoid discomfiture, you stop the proceeds
ings, you giveparty no opportunity of stating his case.
the
(Hear, boar.) I • general principles.
The speaking now upon
The party against whom you acted in that manner would
have the, right to proceed against the Government for a
malicious prosecution, and would have a case for remedy
for the evil sustained by him. But if that be so, generally
,speaking, and upon abstract principles, I think the case
' would be much stronger against the Government in the
present instance ; because here, what will be said ? why,
that the Government began proceedings before a magis-
trate with summary jurisdiction, which were stopped when
; the case had been stated against the defendant, and
when he had had no opportunity of saying anything
in his defence—no opportunity of shaking the evidence
of witnetses, or of proving that the grounds stated
were not suilicient to bear out the prosecution. The case
is 'sent to a jury; but what do the Government then?
I 'Why they retiro from the proceeding, and that their
case will not bear sifting before a jury; they drop the pro-
ceedings,
and deprive the
individual
of that redress which
his character would otherwise obtain. (Hear, hear.) I
am therefore advised that it would not be fit as a precedent,
as a general precedent, or in regard to general eases, that
the proceeding-a against Mr. Hale 'should he stopped, but
tribal should be that the judgment of a competent .
ob-
tained on the matter. , At the sam
etime I hay© no hesita-
tion in saying, on the part
of her Majesty's Government,
that I have no wish te, I:wee hardly on Mr.
Hale • we shallth
be perfectly sa
0,40 to have a decision on Q law, and
g taken place, Mr. Hale* I trust, will
that 44%19411-- wrin
by having his ca.* pushed to this
"ilex in
anyhear, way
y
and cheers.)
limit. (Hear,
Mr. T. DUNCOMB E wished Se, ocrrect a mistake into
which the noble lord ha 4 Wises, The noble lord seemed to
think that he, (i3k•
Duncaes he*lneacir charged him • h being
had donew
withsuch
age tel3`Terelly guaoted the words of the Times. So
PTa* • the noble lord a tool of Austria, he had
ar from thinking
M. K h indebted to'him for
always believed that omit was r
wasroceoct..
his life and his property. Mid 4A. member p