The Sun.
London, England, 1854-01-21 00:00:00

EVENING, JANUARY 21, 1854.

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CITY OF LONDON COMMISSION.

The commission sat again yesterday in the Privy
Council Chamber, Downing•street. Commissioners
present—The Right Hon. H. Labouchere (tbe chairman),
Sir John Patteson, and Mr. Corne wall Lewis. The
first witness examined was

Mr. Bunning, City architect, who stated—l hold my
present office since 1843. My fixed salary at first was
1,6001., including office expenses; but in 1847 it was
raised to 2,5001., also including office expenses ; the
ground of this increase being the enormous accession in
the business brought to the office, and the consequent
increase in office expenses. In 1852 my salary was further
raised and fixed at 2,5001. per annum ; and in addition
to that sum I receive an allowance of 1,000/. for office ex-
penses. I receive this salary as follows:—From the City's
cash, 1, 300/. ; from the Bridge-house estate, 6001.; from the
Finsbury estate, 5001. ; from the coal fund, 50/. ; and
an estimated sum of 501. in fees for preparing plans
for leases. My salary and duties were arranged by the
offices and clerks' committee, to whom every office is
referred for inquiry on the recurrence of vacancies.
That committee fixed my salary at first at a rate below
that which was paid to my predecessor, who, I believe,
received 2,0001. a year, and was allowed to hold another
appointment besides. lam precluded from the private
practice of my profession by my multifarious duties to
the corporation. My duties are as follow :—I have to
attend the Court of Aldermen and the Court of Common
Council when required ; I have to inspect all ruinous
buildings, and report thereon to the Court of Aldermen ;
I do not mean buildings belonging to the corpora-
tion, but all property in a dangerous state within
the City. I have also professional duties connected
with the prisons, such as Newgate, Giltspur-street, the
Debtors' Prison, and the Borough Compter ; and I have
recently erected the new prison at Holloway. Captain
Williams has been pleased to speak very favourably of
the prison at Holloway. Newgate is a fine old prison,
but it is not adapted for the carrying out of an efficient
discipline among the inmates. I agree with Captain
Williams's evidence as to the defective internal arrange.
ments of Newgate prison. All works over 501. are put
out to tender by the corporation, and those under 501.
are executed by the City tradesmen at fixed prices,
which are sent in yearly to the City lands committoe.
There were fourteen competitors for the erection of the
new Holloway prison, and the lowest tender was ac-
cepted. I prepare the plans in every one of these cases.
I also built the Coal Exchange and the new Billings-
gate market. lam also forming the new market for
the corporation at Copenhagen-fields. No other archi-
tects compete with me for the erection of City works ;
but formerly the case used to be different, as before I
was City architect, and while yet a stranger to the cor-
poration, my plan for the erection of the City School
was accepted. At that time the City had a clerk of the
works in its employ. When the Royal Exchange was
rebuilt, Mr. Tite was the architect of that structure, and
the City had then only a clerk of the works. I should
be sorry if the City were to engage any 15ther architect
to execute works while I hold my present situation. In
1852 I certified an expenditure of 36,300 upon buildings
for the corporation. lam elected annually by the Court
of Common Council, and when I was first appointed I
was called the clerk of the works, and then it was the
practice to call in an architect to perform purely archi-
tectural services ; but now I perform the duties of both
clerk of the works and architect to the corporation. If
a new Mansion-house were to be built, I should try hard
to get the erection of it into my hands ;- not that I
would get a shilling more salary in that case, but be-
cause I would like to have the credit of its erection.

The Chairman—Supposing the Royal Exchange to be
again burnt down, would you be the archlteet employed
to rebuild it ?

Mr. Bunning—l apprehend not. The Royal Ex-
change was connected with the Gresham trust, which is
not under the entire control of the City, but is in the
hands of the Mercers' Company. The Court of Alder-
men contemplate the building of a new lunatic asylum
near the Holloway new prison. I have also the care of
the building of Immanuel Hospital, and of the City
Almshouses, and the schools connected with them. I
also superintend all street improvements. I have also
charge of London-bridge, and at present I have a plan
for throwing hanging footways, twelve feet wide,
over both sides of London-bridge, which plan is now
under the consideration of the City lands committee.
The execution of this improvement would cost
from 25,000/. to 30,0001. London-bridge was erected
by Sir J. Rennie. If that bridge had to be
rebuilt, that duty would not fall upon me. My other
duties would prevent my having time to undertake
such a work as the construction of a bridge across the
Thames. I have to prepare the decorations for the Lord
Mayor's annual banquet at Guildhall. I have to survey
the City estate, consisting of 6,084 houses—to report
dilapidations, and to assess the rentals. The Bridge-
house estate is also under my care. It comprises about
6,000 houses, which I have to survey from time to
time ; and I have to attend the meetings of the commit-
tee which has charge of those estates. I likewise attend
the coal, corn, [and finance committee, and I built the
Coal Exchange under their direction. I also fixed the
boundary marks, defining the limits within which the coal
tax is levied. I attend the general purposes committee,
who have the charge of the Mansion-house. The Man-
sion-house is in a very good condition. I also attend the
markets committee. Leadenhall-market is very small
and confined. Farringdon-market is very spacious, but
dark, and the accommodation it affords is, to a very
great extent, unoccupied. I am at the present moment
designing a dead meat market on the site of Smithfield,
which is to be substituted for the present Newgate-
market, where the accommodation is altogether insuffi-
cient for the growing ?wants of the trade. It is very
difficult to move the trade, otherwise a part of the busi-
ness at the smaller and confined markets might easily
be accommodated at the vacant space in Farringdon-
market. I have to attend the improvements committee
and value all freehold and leasehold property which is
required for public improvements. The committee is
now opening a new thoroughfare in Cannon-street, from
the statue in King William-street to St. Paul's Church-
yard. Improvements are also going on in Thread-
needle-street, Mark-lane, and Dowgate-hill, and a new
street is being formed from Farringdon-street to
Clerkenwell, on the site of which it is proposed to erect
lodging-houses for the poor. The ground fortheselodging-
houses has already been purchased. A new street from
Cannon-street to Blackfriars-bridge is also under con-
templation. The improvements committee have also the
levelling of Holborn-hill under consideration, the cost of
which will not be much under 350,0001. In carrying
out this extensive improvement a large sum would be
required for the purchase of goodwills along the line of
the new street, none of which outlay could be repaid.
The claims for compensation in the case of the new
Cannon-street improvements, amounted altogether to
about 1,177,1531., and the sum paid was 796,5551. Of
this amount we recovered by the sale of sites and fron-
tages 300,0001., and the irrecoverable loss will, there-
I fore, be about 200,000/. The corporation experiences
great difficulty in raising the funds necessary for great
improvements. The traffic between St. Paul's and Tem-
ple-bar is often much obstructed ; and the removal of
the bar would greatly assist the circulation of vehicles.
The coal tax is a very good impost forthe purpose of rais-
ing funds for effecting improvements. It is very little felt
by those who have to pay it, and I would be inclined to
perpetuate it. It would be more easily collected than an
improvement rate. The traffic of the City is constantly
increasing, but I am .not aware that any account has
been kept of the number of obstructions occurring in
the streets in the course of a single day. I am at pre-
sent erecting a school at Stockwell, by direction of the
corporation, for the reception of 150 orphans, the chil-
dren of deceased freemen.
Mr. C. Lewis—What will be the cost of the new
market at Copenhagen-fields ?
Mr. Bunning—A.t the present moment we estimate
that the expense will be about 300,0001., including the
cost of the ground.
The witness then withdrew.
Mr. Woodthorpe examined—l am one of the mi-
nuting clerks, in the town clerk's office, and have
held that appointment since 1838. I attend to mi-
nute the proceedings of several committees, and keep I
their records, under the direction of the town clerk.
I have to act for the navigation committee, the
consolidated committee, the police committee.," the
general purposes committee, the markets improve-
ment committee, and other casual committees,
when required. There are three other minuting clerks
besides myself. Our duties are heavier than those of
the minuting clerks of the House of Commons. There
are also in our department four copying clerks, a clerk
to sort papers, and a messenger. The expenses of
the office amount the 1,5001. a year. No deduction is
made from the salaries in order to form retiring pensions.
The clerks have no absolute claim to superannuation
allowances, but they look to the corporation to make
them some consideration on retirement after long ser-
vice. The grand committee of the Thames navigation
and port of London committee meet once a month, and
the business it transacts is very important. They
have also a sub-committee. The consider the claims
of persons applying for accommodation on the river,
and for the erection of piers ; and they keep the
navigation of the river generally in a very effi-
cient state, so far as their means, which are limited,
will allow. There are funds applicable to specific
purposes, such as the Thames navigation fund and the
tonnage duty fund. There is no special fund for the
removal of shoals. The Thames navigation fund is de-
voted to the making of locks, towing paths, &c., and
the tonnage dues fund to providing moorings and an-
chorages. The removal of old London-bridge has affected
the flow of the water up and down the river. The old
bridge acted as a dam. Many of the members of the
navigation committee have had great experience on
matters connected with their duties, and Mr. Phillips,
one• of their number, has been an extensive lighterman
on the river for many years. The consolidated com-
mittee was appointed to communicate with the netthe
and carry one suits instituted. andor E,ga_
tchoerpaoffraaitreionc:f
tahnedegerperraaltliyentowshuepnernvelesreseary.interfere in
The Chairman—lt is, in fact, a kind of governing
body ?
Mr. Woodthorpe--Not so much as it is an advising
boThdy. e Chairman—ln the case in which it has been
g stated that the corporation had under consideration the

propriety of establishing a newspaper, the proposition
originated with the consolidated committee, did it not ?
Mr. Woodtli orpe—No ; the subject was never
brougbtund-ir their consideratio❑ as a committee.

The Chairman—But was not the repayment of the
advance; made the officers to support the " Citizen"
made by the consolidated committee ?

Mr. 'Woodthorpe—The only cases in which the com-
mittee made such repayments were when they voted
2501. to Mr. Scott, and 2801. to the Remembrance:.

The Chairman—Had the committee received authority
from the court previous to making these repayments ?
Mr. Woodthorpe—lt was certainly considered that
the terms of the original reference to the committee
were sufficiently wide for the purpose. At the time
the warrants for the payments were drawn there was an
additional power given to the committee to draw on the
chamber beyond the original reference relating to the
publication of better reports of corporate proceedings.
No express sum was, however, mentioned by the court
in its reference to the committee. The general purposes
committee have for the last two years been carrying on
an important inquiry into the charges made, and the
privileges maintained by the City porters and meters.
They are now considering their report, which will shortly
be presented. The resolutions which the committee
have already agreed upon go very much in the direction
of a compromise between the corporation and the corn
trade. The feeling of the witnesses examined from the
corn trade is, that the system of the meters and porters
is very good, but their charges are too high, and that
the metage dues are levied in a manner which is too com-
plicated. The police committee do not supervise the
force itself, bnt they have the control of the clothing of
the men, the stores, and the station-houses. These
duties are performed in the metropolitan districts by the
Metropolitan Police Commissioners, but it is considered
that they are conducted more economically in the City
by the police committee of the corporation. This com-
mittee also supervises the assessment of the police rate.
Mr. John Sewell examined—l am the Clerk of the
Chamberlain's Court. I have the issuing of summonses
against persons who refuse to take up their freedom. I
examine the qualifications of persons applying to be ad-
mitted as freemen, and attend the Chamberlain when he
is hearing complaints against apprentices, and take
minutes of the evidence. I also have charge of the
City plate and regalia, &c. lam the only officer under
the roof of Guildhall who is paid by fees. My fees have
been reduced very much in consequence of the great fall-
ing-off in the number of persons who take up the freedom
of the City. I receive 6s. Bd. from each person who be-
comes free by redemption, and 13s. 4d. on admission by
patrimony and servitude. When I was appointed it
was estimated that my income from fees would amount
to 5001. a-year after all deductions for expenses, but
I regret to say that my annual receipts do not now
average more than between 3001. and 4001. a year. The
number or freemen enrolled during the last seven years
has averaged 679 per annum. Last year they numbered
883, the increase being occasioned by 4,000 summonses
having been recently issued against parties who had
neglected to take up their freedom. Great brewers who
are enrolled members of the livery companies refuse to
become free of the City, although they would save thou-
sands a year in the shape of City tolls by doing so ; but
their objection is that they would be eligible to election
to civic offices. The Chamberlain's jurisdiction over
apprentices is very beneficial. The commitments of ap-
prentices to the city Bridewell are very few—not more
than twenty a year. The number of apprentices bound
in the City averages 427 per annum
Mr. S. R. Goodman examined—l am principal clerk
to the Lord Mayor, and attend the Lord Mayor and the
aldermen while they sit on the bench at the Mansion-
house as magistrates. I am, in fact, their legal adviser.
I examine the witnesses and advise the Lord Mayor and
aldermen on all questions of law, leaving matters of fact
to be decided by the magistrates themselves. My salary
is 500/. a-year, in addition to which I receive fees,
which make my total income amount to 7001. The
Lord Mayor sits at the Mansion-house every day that
he is not called away to attend some other court, and
the aldermen act in his lordship's absence. The court
at the Mansion-house is open every week day from
twelve to two ; but if there is business to detain
the magistrates beyond two o'clock, the court is
not closed till every complaint has been heard. I
am appointed by the Court of Aldermen, and hold office
during good behaviour. The total cost of maintaining
the Mansion-house police-court is 1,7381. a year. The
tithes in eleven City parishes amount to 2s. 9d. in the
pound, under an old act of Henry VIII., and the mode
of recovering them is very peculiar. The Lord Mayor,
by this act, has the power of perpetually imprisoning
persons who cannot or will not pay their tithes ; the
wording of the act being that every defaulter shall be
imprisoned "until he has made his peace with the par-
son." (A laugh.)

Mr. C. LeWis.—Yon mean until he has paid the
money, which is the same thing?

Mr. Goodman—Yes ; and we have frequent applica-
tions made to us to enforce this law. There is no power
of levying the amount due from the party by distress.
The duty of adjudicating in these cases is so repugnant
to the feelings of the Lord Mayor, that he would rather
pay the money due as tithes by the party than put the
law in motion against him.
Mr. C. Lewis—Certainly, the power seems to be an
excessive one.

Mr. Wood examined—l am chief clerk of the justice-
room at Guildhall, and have very much the same duties
to discharge as the last witness. The establishment in
our court consists of myself, two assistant clerks, a re-'
ceiver, a summoning clerk, a gaoler, and a messenger.
The annual expense of maintaining the court is about
1,850/.

Mr. Clark examined—l am clerk of the peace for
London and Southwark, and hold also the office of clerk
of the Central Criminal Court ; but the latter is not an
appointment made by the corporation of London. I
have to issue precepts for the holding of sessions, and
for the summoning of juries, &c. I receive no salary
from the corporation as clerk of the peace. lam paid
by fees, which, on an average of the last five years, have
amounted to 3501. per annum. The convictions which
take place at the Old Bailey upon the commitments
made by aldermen are as numerous in proportion as the
convictions upon the commitments of the police magis-
trates.

Mr. Leach, engineer to the Thames navigation com-
mittee, examined—l am paid by salary and fees, and
my present income from both these sources amounts to
7001. a year. I receive my instructions from the navi-
gation committee. I have the care of the locks, weirs,
and towing-paths between London-bridge and Staines.
The locks are maintained in repair by the City. There
are very few engineering works executed on the river
above Putney. I superintend and carry out all new
works. I also watch all bills brought into Parliament
affecting the river, and advise the committee regarding
them. The water bailiff has a jurisdiction to prevent all
obstructions on the river. I superintend the collection
of tolls levied on barges in the river. I have also a
general superintendence of all engineering works carried
out on the river below London-bridge, and I am charged
with the removal of improper projections and shoals.
They begin at Erith and extend more or less all the way
up to London-bridge. The removal of these shoals
would be attended with very great expense. The
operations of the committee are impeded by the restric-
tions impoed under act of Parliament on the appli-
cation of their funds. The state of the river is gradually
becoming worse and worse, but this applies more parti-
cularly to the state of the navigation above London-
bridge. The removal of old London-bridge has had a great
effect upon the river. The tide runs higher and ebbs lower
above London-bridge than it used to do before that alte-
ration, and this produces the sinking of the present
bridges. The effect of the removal of the old bridge
extends also in some degree to the river below bridge.
The floods which have been caused above bridge have
inflicted loss upon the proprietors of private property
abutting on the river. It is no part of the duty of the
City, as conservator of the Tharn4s, to embank the river.
Its main duty is to prevent encroachments on the soil
and bed of the river, or to regulate them, and to see that
nothing is done on the banks to impede the navigation.
Blackfriars and Westminster bridges are in a dan-
gerous state. Blackfriars-bridge has been propped up,
but there is nothing to prevent it sinking again. No
doubt, the removal of old London-bridge has had a
very considerable effect upon the state of these bridges,
and one reason why the navigation committee have hesi-
tated in the removal of the shoals arises from apprehen-
sions of the effect it would have on the bridges. Look-
ing
to the absence of complaints as to the state of the
river above bridge, it may be fairly said that the com-
mittee discharge their duties satisfactorily. The corpo-
ration has not sufficient powers or sufficient funds for
carryinc, out a perfect conservancy of the river. The
estimated' outlay which it would be necessary to make
in order to put the river in a proper state for the navi-
gation of sea-going vessels would be as follows :-
1 40,000/. for the river westward of London-bridge ;
18,0001. for piers and for deepening the moorings ; and
e
180,0001. for removing the shoals and deepening
channels. A further sum would be required for the
locks and weirs. I attach considerable importance to the
visits of inspection performed on the river by the mem-
bers of the navigation committee. They see on these
occasions what is necessary to be done at any part of
the river, and can tell generally what is wanted as
well as I can myself. On all engineering matters, how
ever, the committee entirely z:elyl 11
-ow my
judgment..
e s
thesecre-
tary tWithh at
regard to the opinion Dock
Company,rvenby 3
wl'ho i
suggested
of the London
a compound committee should be formed for the manage-
ment of the river and the navigation, which committee
should contain upon it members chosen from the Trinity
Board,
as well as from the dock companies, and other
commercial bodies interested in shipping, in addition to
members of the City corporation, I have to state that I
consider the navigation committee, as at present consti-
tuted, is a much more independent body than that which
Mr. Powles recommends. Members from the Trinity
Board, no doubt, would be independent if mixed with
members of the corporation ; but the same would not
probably be the case with the representatives chosen
from the commercial bodies alluded to, and it is most
desirable that the local interests should not be allowed
to sway the committee.
Mr. C. Lewis—But may you not have a committee
so very independent that they would take little or no
interest in the duties which they have to discharge ?
Mr. Leach—That may be ; but certainly such a charge
is not merited by the present navigation committee. In
addition to the committee, however, there might be a
board of reference appointed to consider disputed points.
Mr. C. Lewis—But is not the conservancy of the
river a duty which requires on the part of those who
are entrusted with it the possession of special and tech-
nical knowledge, in order to qualify them for dis-
charging it with efficiency?
Mr. Leach—As to that point, the case is, in my
opinion, precisely analogous to that which is constantly
occurring every day in railway companies and other
bodies, the directors of which do not exercise any

special control over the details of engineering, but only
exercise a general control.
Mr. C. Lewis—Then, with the advice of skilled pro-
fessional men, you think the present navigation com-
mittee is fully competent to administer the affairs
entrusted to it ?

Mr. Leach—l do. When questions of importance
come before it, the committee always calls in the assist-
ance of the very highest professional advice.
Mr. C. Lewis—lt has been stated to us, in the evi-
dence of Mr. Pratt, the secretary to the General Steam
Navigation Company, that the regulations of the corpo-
ration of London and the regulations of the Admiralty
Board, with regard to the lights required to be exhibited
by steamers navigating the River Thames, are contra-
dictory and conflicting. Is that the case ?
Mr. Leach— It is a mistake. There really can be no
conflict on the subject. The jurisdiction of the Admiralty
as to lights ends where the jurisdiction of the corporation
of London begins ; and therefore the two sets of regula-
tions do not apply to the same part of the river. The
City regulations have been approved by the Trinity-
house, and are embodied in bye-laws. It is the fault of
the persons connected with the vessels themselves if any
confusion occurs on the subject of the lights. In regard
to the former part of my evidence, I wish to explain that
the sinking of Blackfriars-bridge only commenced about
two years ago.
The commissioners then adjourned till Tuesday next.