The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-06 00:00:00

Trig SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 6. 1853.

as has just been addressed to me. (Oh ! cheers, and
laughter.) Ido not think it creditable that, in an assem-
bly of English gentlemen—(oh, oh !)—such language
should be applied to mo under such circumstances. (Oh,
and derisive cheers.) There are two points in relation to
what I before said upon which I wish to give an explana-
tion. One of them relates to a phrase which has been
dwelt upon and somewhat misunderstood. I observed,
that short as my experience of this house was—short as
my experience of public life was—l have seen certain
things done, and the phrase " under my own eyes" meant,
during the period I have been a member of this house.
(Laughter from the Ministerial side.) lam not going to
alter a syllable of what I said, although gentlemen at the
back of the treasury bench may indulge in their laughter.
I wish the committee tounderstandthat the phrase "under
my own eyes," taken in connection with what immediately
preceded it, meant during the period I have been a mem-
ber of this house. (Hear, and laughter.) Yes ;it meant
nothing else. The other point is this. The interpretation
put upon my words by my hon. friend the member for
Meath has led to some discussion. Now, I was instancing
the conduct of Ministers. Walpole was a Minister, and
corrupted Parliament, as history tells us. Pelham
was a Minister, and corrupted Parliament, as history
tells us. I was instancing the corruption effected by
Ministers, and I came down to our own times, and the
shape I gave my statement was that it was my convic-
tion that, during the time I have been in Parliament,
the present Government did operate upon certain Irish
members. (Oh! laughter, cheers, and cries of " Name !")
What I wished to convey to the house was, that the same
kind of influence which was employed byWalpole and Pel-
ham seemed to me to have been employed to influence the
votes of a certain small number of Irish members. (Cries
of "Oh!" " Name," and laughter.) The noble lord, who
is called I believe the leader of this house, has thought pro-
per to say that I wanted to pass away from the subject
without offering any explanation. Now that is not the fact
I stated to the committee that if the chairman, as their
organ, called on me to name I would name. I paused for
a considerable time. I heard the clamours of the commit-
tee on both sides—" Name," and " Don't name "—and I
came to the conclnsion—and so did my hon. friends near
me—that it was the wish of the committee that I should
not name. (Loud cries of " Name !" from the Ministerial
side, and " No, no !" from the Opposition.) lam not, as
several hon. gentlemen have said, an old member of this
house—l am not very familiar with its forms, and I may
perhaps have got into a position of some difficulty; but one
position I cannot and will not get into, and that is, the po-
sition of unsaying anything I have said. (Hear.) When the
chairman had come to the conclusion that I was not in or-
der, there was a certain course which I considered proper
under the circumstances, but I afterwards heard a very in-
fluential member on this side - the leader of a large party
in this house—declare his opinion that that decision was
come to somewhat rashly, and that circumstance naturallX
altered my views to some extent. If it be the will of the
committee that I should give any further explanation of
the facts that influenced me in forming and stating the
opinion I before expressed, lam ready to do so. (Hear.)
If, on the contrary, the committee require me to withdraw
this language, to explain it away, and to say that my state-
ment was not true, I have only one course to take, what-
ever the consequences may be. (Loud cries of "Name !"
" Chair, chair !") lam again called upon to name ;of
course, if a large number of gentlemen in this house wish
me to name—(" No, no !" " Chair !" " Name !")
Mr. BRIGHT—I think the committee will consider
there is a great difference between the explanation just
given by the hon. member and the impression he made
upon us by his original statement. The statement, I think,
now stands thus :—The hon. gentleman says he is of opi-
nion that the Government have taken measures, somewhat
analogous to those taken by former Governments, for the
purpose of influencing votes in this house. I should be
sorry to have to defend any Government against charges of
this nature—(laughter)—but the hon. gentleman from the
other side of the Channel ; and we all know that gentle-
men from that quarter—though it is in the west—are occa-
sionally apt to take what may be called an Oriental lati-
tude in language—that their mode of expressing themselves
comes, not unfrequently, under the head of the figurative.
(Laughter.) lam inclined to think the expressions com-
plained of may be fairly classed within that category. I
myself may have at times used expressions which the house
has not altogether approved of. (Laughter.) The chairman
has determined that the expressions so used by the hon.
gentleman were disorderly. lam satisfied the hon. gentle-
man would not wish to do anything that the committee con-
sider disorderly—that he would not willingly transgress the
rules of the house, or act counter to its customs. The hon.
gentleman says he is of opinion that certain practices have
been adopted by Ministers towards gentlemen sitting below
the gangway. Now, really, were I myself an Irish member
of this house' I should hardly think it worth while to have
so general an imputation as this taken down. (Laughter.)
The hon. gentleman, perhaps, sees in the course taken by
some other hon. gentleman something which he does not
quite comprehend, but then he has made a partial expla-
nation of what he meant to convey, and though I should,
certainly, have much preferred that the words complained
of had not been uttered, and though, in the broad sense in
which they were at first understood, I cannot conceive them
to be true, yet, after the statement which the hon. gentle-
man has made, I think we may as well let the matter drop.
After all, the hon. gentleman does not say that any of the
Irish members to whom he refers have succumbed to
temptation. He only speaks of their having been operated
on, and we all know that operations are not necessarily
successful. (Laughter.) We have heard, over and over
again in this house, general imputations that Government—
one Goverment not less than another—has employed temp-
tation and used certain means to swell their majorities, but
nobody has taken any serious notice of such general state-
ments.
Mr. J. BALL—I, for one, as an individual member,
am desirous to vindicate, not only my own personal honour,
but the honour, also, of those members with whom I am
in daily communication ; and if there is corruption going
on in this house I desire it may be manifested, that I may
disconnect myself from it, and from those who have been
guilty of it. (Hear, hear.) There is no double meaning
to the term—" corruption" is a plain word, and easy to be
understood. (Hear, hear.) I take the clear meaning of
the hon. member for New Ross to be, that certain Irish
members have been induced by pecuniary considerations.
(" No, no !") Are words such as the hon. member's to be
used in this house, and the house then to be told that
there is no meaning to be attached to them ? (Hear, hear.)
That certain Irish members have been induced by pecuniary
considerations to take a particular course? (Hear, hear.)
If that allegation stands unretracted, I, for one, will not
consent to withdraw the motion. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—The hon. gentleman behind me is
quite right when he says that Governments have, in al l
times, been exposed to the charge of using corrupt means,
and other charges of the like kind, and, no doubt, Govern-
ments, as well as individual members, should be indisposed
lightly to take offence at words escaping in the heat of
debate ; but it must be observed that the hon. gentleman
who rose to complain of the words in question is an Irish
member, and that the charge is, that Irish members have
been practised on by corrupt influences. (Hear, hear.)
Now, it appears to me that there are three ways in which
a member may use such words as those complained of ;
there is one case which has been supposed by my noble
friend, where, in the heat of debate, words, not well
founded, and unjust in themselves, may fall from a speaker,
and which, in a few moments afterwards, he may at once
retract and regret. This, it appears, is not the case of the
hon: member. (Hear, hear.) Another case is the per-
fectly justifiable one, where a member states that which
he believes to be true, and which he is prepared to make
the subject of inquiry, under a specific form of charge.
(Hear, hear.) Now, if I understand that this is the case of
the hon. member, I beg that his charges may be distinctly
made. (Cheers.) If he means that.he can substantiate any
specific charge of corrupt conduct on the part of the Go-
vernment towards any Irish member, and, as a matter of
consequence, on the part of any Irish member who has
been so corrupted, then let the charge be made, and let it
be strictly inquired into. (Hear.) There is a third way
in which such a charge may be made, and that is, where a
member having employed words affecting the honour and
integrity of another member of this house, has neither the
proof to bring forward to substantiate his charge, nor the
manliness to retract, and to acknowledge that he has been
in error. (Hear, hear.) Unless I hear that the hon. mom-
is ready, not only to name the gentlemen to whom he re-
fers, but to bring forward a specific charge, or charges,
against those members, and against the Government, which
can be made the subject of a substantive inquiry, I must
rest, with regard to his conduct, on the last conclusion I
have stated. (Cheers.)
The CHAIRMAN then put the question, that the
words complained of be taken down.
Agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN then put the question, that the
words so taken down be reported to the house.
Agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again.
The house having resumed,

Mr. BOUVERIE reported the words which had been
taken down.

The SPEAKER, having read the words from the chair,
said - Has the hon. member for New Ross anything to say
in explanation of the words I have now read, or any re-
tractation to offer?

Mr. DUFFY—I would merely explain the object I had
in view. I desire to say lam not acquainted with the
forms of the house, and I do not know what is aimed at in
this proceeding. (Laughter.) If the Speaker will tell
me what is the course lam expected to take. (Great
laughter.)
The SPEAKER—It has been reported to the house that
an hon. member has used expressions which have been re-
ceived as offensive to a great number of members of the
house, and the committee has ordered his words to be
taken down. It then remained for me to make the hon.
member acquainted with the words which had been re-
ported to me as offensive, and to call on the hon. member
to explain or retract them. The hon. member having
made that explanation or retractation it will be for him
to withdraw, and the house will then consider what fur-
ther course they will pursue in the matter.
Mr. DUFFY—It will be in the recollection of the house
that the statement I made was this,—that though I had
been but a short time in the house I had, I thought, ob-
served corruption practised to influence the votes of Irish
members of this house, of a character with that corruption
which had for similar purposes been practised by Ministers
whose names are familiar to the house. I have been called
on for an explanation. If the house thinks proper to give
me a committee, I will lay before that committee the facts
which influenced me to the conclusion I have arrived at.
(Hear, hear.) Ido not know that it is quite reasonable to
expect that I should, in this hurried manner, go into those
facts, but I believe that I have substantial grounds for
what I stated, and all I can do is to offer before any com-
mittee
.you will appoint those facts that influenced my
mind. (Hear,' hear.) It is not reasonable I should be
called on to do this without longer notice.
The hon gentleman having then withdrawn,

Lord J. IitSSELL immediately rose. He said, I rise
only to say that the words used by the hon. member con-
tain a general charge against the Government, and against
certain Irish members who have not been named. As a
member of the Government myself, I do not think it
becomes me to advise the house as to the course it ought
to pursue ; but I trust that some experienced member,
well acquainted with the forms and precedents of the
house, will advise and make a motion upon the subject.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI—I rise, Sir, to express the opinion of
those who, I think, wish to give a fair, and, I trust, an
unprejildiced view of this question. I do not think it
right to appoint a committee to inquire into so vague a
statement as that which has been made by the hon. mem-
ber for New Ross. (Hear, hear.) At the same time that
statement is of so substantial a nature that I do not think
we can treat it with contempt. I think that he ought to
be summoned to the house, and that you, Sir, should ask
him to name the individuals upon whom he thinks the
Government have practised these corrupt influences. I
think it would be unreasonable to expect him, at a rao•