The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-27 00:00:00

...
PRICES OF PROVISIONS, &c., IN INDIA.

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that the prices
of articles of support were infinitely lower now than
when the British rule in India commenced. We in-
herited the country after it had been placed almost in a
state of desolation ; and in consequence of the consump-
tion and the waste, the prices of all commodities were
exceedingly dear. Unfortunately the revenue was fixed
according to the then prices of provisions, and hence the
injury done to the cultivator. The revenue was fixed
according to a war price, and it was paid now according
to a peace price. That was the cause
,of half the mi-
series of India.
The returns were ordered.

MA LDON ELECTION.
The Earl of ABERDEEN moved that their lordships
should concur with the other house in an address to her
Majesty for a commission of inquiry into the Maldon
eleetion.

Agreed to.
Their lordships adjourned at a quarter before eight
o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY. )
The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock.
NEW MEMBERS.

Mr. MACKINNON took the oaths and his seat for Rye

THIRD READINGS.

The following bills were read a third time and
passed :—Aberdeen Railway ; Bedale and Leyburn Rail-
way ; Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway ; Leeds and
Whitehall Roads ; Portsmouth Railway ; Scottish
Midland Junction Railway ; South Eastern Railway ;
South Shields Improvement ; Tralee and Killarney
Railway ; The Alston Roads ; end the London and
South-Western Railway.

PETITIONS.
Mr. SEATING presented several petitions, lirfavelk"
of legalising marriage with a deceased wife's sister.
Mr. A. PELLATT presented a petition from the
Northern Association of the Baptist Church, against the
Education Bill.

Mr. MITCHELL presented a petition from Bridport,
praying for the abolition of church rates.
Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition agreed to at a
public meeting held in Southwark, complaining of the
conduct of the spy system in the police, and praying the
house to take steps for its abolition.
Mr. KINNAIRD presented a petition from Perth,
praying for the abolition of university tests in Scotland.
Mr. MUNDY presented a petition from the attor-
neys of Derby, against the proposed alterations in the
stamp duties on articles of clerkship, and prayinglor the
abolition of the attorneys' certificate duty.
Mr. A. HA STIE presented a petition from a place in
Scotland, praying for the abolition of university tests.
Sir J. WALMSLEY presented a petition from Mal-
den, praying for the abolition of church rates.
Sir J. V. SHELLEY presented a petition from the
operative stone masons of Westminster, praying for an
alteration in the law of combinations amongst workmen.
Sir B. SMITH presented a petition from Stockwell,
praying for the opening of the Crystal Palace on Sun-
days.
Sir B. HALL presented a petition from Marylebone,
against the spy system in the police.
Mr. CROSSLEY presented a petition from Halifax,
against the Government Educational Scheme.

-Mr. HUME presented a petition from Andover, pray-
ing for the total abolition of church rates.
Mr. LOWE presented a petition in favour of the Com-
bination of Workmen's Bill.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from the
metropolis, praying that the tolls levied upon carts pass-
ing through the city might be abolished.
Mr. H. W. WICKHAM presented a petition from
the basket and skep makers of the town of Bradford,
Yorkshire, in favour of the Combination of Workmen's
Bill.

The Earl of ALBEMARLE moved for returns show-
ing the average priee of provisions and the rate cf labour,
in the different provinces of India, at intervals of 10
years during the last 60 years.

zss
. • .
//7. - )7, -' ' /I.
-
thee'
I .s much better t end one's house in a calm than
, . .e obliged to set about doing"so in a storm. He
..',//,(saP/ would now call the attention of the house, to the propo-
sition he was about to submit, and he was anxious to
impress on it one point—namely, that if they would
examine the evidence taken before the select committee
in 1851, they would find that the real objection of the
dissenters to the payment of church rates was founded
on conscientious scruples. That that was the case was
abundantly proved by the evidence. What he proposed
' was that all dissenters should be exempted from the
payment of church rates by the simple process of stating
in writing that they were dissenters from the Church of
England, and handing that statement to the church.
warden. He thought there could be no harm in re-
quiring a man to state that he was a dissenter, and he
proposed that that statement should be kept by the
churchwarden, and a certified copy of it produced in
court should be sufficient evidence of exemption. It
was 'said that it would be difficult to define what was
dissent. He admitted that it would probably be a
, hopelesitask, and he felt entirely incompetent to suggest
means for defining it. But there was no hardship iu a
man saying that he was a dissenter—there could be no
hardship and no difficulty in such a course. (Hear,
I hear.) He proposed further that the persons who had
so declared themselves dissenters, and objected to support
and maintain the Established Church in what was neces-
sary, and who thereby obtained exemption,—he proposed
that they should have no right whatever to any church
rights, or privileges, or ceremonies—(hear, hear)—that
they should not be able to compel the clergyman to the
perfoz•manee of any religious service—that they should
not at one and the same time say that they objected to
contribute to a church which was their abomination and
aversion, and at the same time insist upon the rites and
ceremonies being performed for their benefit whatever
their objections might be. He proposed also that there
should be a mode left them of returning to the Church
which they had abandoned. Although that might not
be deemed necessary, instances had occurred of persons
who from some motive of pique, or want of due con-
sideration of the subject, had dissented from the doc-
trines of the Established Church, and who wished to re-
turn when their irritation had subsided, and :he should
be sorry to close the door for ever against them. He
proposed, therefore, that regard being had to the due
ecclesiastical authority, the dissenter who wished to re-
turn should have the power of withdrawing his state-
ment, and should thereby be restored to the Ohtu ch, and
receiving at the same time all the privileges and blessing
enjoyed by the Churchman. He proposed also that dis-
senterss should not have the right of appearing at vestry
'Meetings, or vote on the appropriation of the rates. As
regarded the Churchman himself, it had, he was aware,
often been urged that theladjudication of church rate
cases should be transferred to the magistrates at quarter
sessions. At present it was well known that there were
no less than six suits which might arise from the appeals
from the Consistory Court to the Court of Queen's Bench,
from that to the Exchequer Chamber, and finally to the
House of Lords, all upon a sum perhaps not exceeding
ss. 6d. That arrangement was wholly indefensible.
The question was, whether an arrangement might not
be effected by improving the present court of judicature
or transferring it to another court. There was this evil
in transferring it to the court of quarter sessions—that
the law, as it at present stood, gave different degrees of
power to the parishioners, the clergyman, and the bishop.
A rate might be made by the clergyman for bread and
wine for the Holy Communion, for the washing of sur-
plices, and other necessary purposes, without the sanc-
tion of the parishioners. But when anything ornamental
or any alterations beyond those of mere necessity or
utility were required, the parishioners had a vote in
vestry, and might reject the rate proposed. Or, if
passed, the ordinary might afterwards revise it, and pre-
vent the proposed ornaments being put up in the church.
It was well known that at present some of these altera-
tions and ornaments involved questions of doctrine, and
the law in this respect being fair and just, he proposed
that it should remain as it was, and that the Consistory
Court should decide in all cases summarily, and
viva voce, upon the question. If these questions were
transferred to the magistrates for decision, many
questions of an embarrassing character would arise.
There was no reason why the Consistory Courts should
not be rendered fit to adjudicate upon those ques-
tions by rendering them more expeditious, and making
their decisions final, instead of transferring them to
courts, the decisions in which might grievously interfere
with the discipline and practice and doctrines of the
Church. Such was an outline of the plan he proposed
to submit. The evidence of Mr. Baines would lead him
to infer that such an arrangement would not be agree-
able to all classes of Dissenters. One objection that had
been urged against his plan was that it would tend to
the dissolution of the connection between Church and
State. He should certainly witness with great regret
any scheme with that object, but curiously enough many
of the Dissenters believed that the continuance of the
present law would have the effect equally of producing
that dissolution. They believed that these continual
squabbles and battles were the best vantage ground for
carrying out the object of effecting the separation of
Church and State. He was well aware that he had ex-
posed himself to much criticism and censure, and much
animadversion from various quarters. No doubt there
was something extremely satisfactory to one's self-esteem
in deploring and confessing the existence of an evil, carp-
ing at the remedies proposed, and then sitting down with-
out suggesting anything feasible. That observation was
not applicable to the amendment of the hon. member for
the Tower Hamlets, which he had in the course of his
observations endeavoured to deal with. But there was
another class of objectors for whom, although he widely
differed, he entertained the highest respect. These were
the gentlemen who saw no evil at all in the existing state
of things—who could not conceive that any person friendly
to the Church could propose so great a boon to the Dis-
senters without being a traitor in disguise to the Esta-
blishment and an enemy to her institutions. To that sort
of imputation he was extremely sensitive, and although
in ability he might be exceeded by most, in his desire
to serve her interests ho yielded to no one, because he
was desirous of seeing her blessings extended through-
out the country. Because he deprecated the evils that
would result from a separation between Church and
State—because he was most anxious that she should
reign by legitimate spiritual means, and maintain her em-
pire over the hearts of the people—it was that he did
implore her to consider well that these privileges which
had been unquestionably guaranteel to her by law had
brought odium upon her institutions, desecrated her doc-
trines, and had created a furious spirit of party which
was opposed to her very existence. He submitted the
present measure because he conscientiously believed that
it would tend to promote that great blessing of religious
peace. Ile had no other object whatever. He might
apply to it the language in which, in their incomparable
ritual, they invoked the divine blessing upon the pro-
ceedings of Parliament, when he said that this was a
measure which had foundations whereby truth and jus-
tice, peace and happiness, religion and piety, might be
established in these realms, and, he would fain hope,
nay, earnestly pray, for all generations. (Loud cheers.)
Sir W. CLAY, in rising to move his amendment, " That
this house do resolve itself into a committee, to consider
whether church rates should not be abolished, and provi-
sion made for the charges to which such rates are at pre-
sent applicable from pew rents, and from the increased
value which inquiries instituted-by authority of the Crown
have shown may be derived, under better management,
MAYO ELECTION, from church lands and property,"—said he was happy to
Mr. BUTT gave notice that on an early day he find he so far had the support of the hon. and learned gen-
should move fc a• a select committee to inquire into the tleman that he admitted the disgraceful state of the law on
extent of inter Terence practised by the priests at the the subject, which, indeed, had been so exposed by the
last election for s the county of Mayo. inquiries of the select committee that it was difficult to
CHURCH RATES. convey an idea of its utter absurdity. The law was so un-
On the mot ion of Lord J. RUSSELL, it was agreed certain that it was doubtful how a good church rate could
that the order. e of the day should be postponed until be made, by whom it was to be made, or in what way it
after the motic in of the hon. member for Tavistock, in could be enforced. This was remarkably illustrated in the
reference to ch o.rch rates, had been disposed of, agree- history of the Braintree church rate case, which had corn.
ably to an mid erstanding on a former evening. menced in 1836 by the refusal of the vestry to make a rates
Lord J. R I3SSELL intimated, in reply to Mr.
Churchwardens had then made it, and the ecclesiastical
Disraeli, that the Government would not propose going courts had been resorted to, who' decided the rate to be
into committee on the Income Tax Bill after 12 o'clock.
valid. Next, it came before the Court of Queen's Bench,
Petitions iof favour of the abolition of church who decided it to be invalid. Then it went into a court of
rates were pre s ented from different parts of the country error, who affirmed that judgment, but intimated that if
by Sir W. Cl ay, Mr. Hatfield, Mr. Phillimore, and the churchwardens made the rate with the concurrence of.
other hon. met mbers. a minority of the vestry the deeison might be different.
manner, and the
Mr. PHIL] :iIMORE then rose to ask for leave to Accordingly. a newsrateis made
bienl-alid. Tho Court of
bring in a bill to alter and amend the law respecting ecelesitreanicr
suurt held
pported this decision, and theirjudgment
church rates. After explaining the difference between
his bill, and th a t proposed by Sir W. Clay, h® said. the Queen's
sueeunpheld in the Court of Exchequer. (Hear, hear.) An
appeal had, however, been carried to the House of Lords,
object of his of en was in entire accordance with thee ex- where the case was "ripe for hearing"—(a laugh)—and if,
pressed ()pink)) is of the principal members of the house as was even probable, the judgment of the court of law
who took apa rt in the debate on the church rates; in was affirmed, then the jurisdiction of the ecclesiasticalto
1851, and th: at it made certain alterations, wi bleb courts would be revived, from which an appeal now lay
justice and i policy alike demanded. He prop ( used the Privy Council ;so that after the lapse of 20 years the
that the churc is should make a large sacrifice, and it was P) The jurisdiction
People of Braintree
nmeaight kndcwa whether
au,h.sethe rate made in
necessary that :hon. members who represented the dis-
senting interns' should appreciate its extent. No I ore- hadodn . lawem
pi no
wrt he spiritual
reaendthe
magistrates
courts.
tToh
see
position of lays' was more incontrovertible than t hat wasllB3ll7,a7c.asciTv7maii,
of church rates below 10/. M amount ; but a dispute sttre cases
every parishio aer was at present bound to contributs sto validity of the rate arrested the magisterial_ j
the repair of tl set parish church, and that the rates lei tied
The consequence
for such a pufT 'else extended to all kinds of property wit thin against those who litigated its validity.
here the dissenters were and practically there was no means of enforneinng a rarte
the parish land Is;, stock-in-trade, and all goods. Enfor i ;lug was, that in lrge toTwfeslwevying
of church rates had long
numer-
church rates r ested on the assumption, both in law and ous and powerful.Theexpense of enforcing the collection in cases
in fact, that t? lie Church and State were identical.. It ceased.hethe levy was enforced was most oppressive. In one
was now for t he house to consider whether the law' and
instancewr the amount of a distress for Si. 12s. 6d. had been
the fact remr lined the same, or whether they had not
671. 10s., of which only 61. 7s. had been returned. (Hear.)
undergone ex' lensive alterations, which rendered it eq nit- In 1837 the present Lord Chief Justice (Lord Campbell),
able and just; that some relief should be extended t o a had published a letter on the subject to Lord Stanley, the
large portion of the population. There could be no present Earl of Derby, in which he proved that church
doubt that, ;at the time of the Reformation ands ub- rates formed no charge upon the land ; and Dr. Lush.
,ast ington, in his evidence before the committee, had ex
-
majority seqhent time., one religion was professed by the N
urged—that people majority of the population. (Hear.) Circumstances pressed a similar opinion. What, then, became of the.
s a purelypureh
had, however,. greatly changed. A return recently J aid argument so
subjectso tooftethne
before the hot V3e presented an appalling aspect of the pettycharge, and it could no more be
dissent in the. kingdom. It appeared from it that. lute
claimed its remission, that they would an answer to those who
number of Di ssenting places of worship registered 1 i •om
themselves from a charge for whchw° d thereby relieve
1688 to 1852, i ixicludingßoman Catholic chapels, amoe anted
equivalent, than a similar ans i thou had received an
to no less that i 54,804. No doubt, considerable deduc eons those who claimed the remission wsr ld have been to
were to be in Lade from that number, but it presented a corn laws. The retention of ii of the window tax, or the
remarkable is latistical fact which could not be cur it
period was peculiarly unjustifiable.eurch rates at the present
from consid erasion in arriving at the conch s lion lion the country was of on Before the Reforma-
whether or i sot the present state of the law respect/ lug church rates was reasonable! religion,
and the levy of the
the payment; of church rates by Dissenters was rig ht. least logically defended and just ; and it could be at
It was said Dissenters purchased property under ; the was found that the people
even long after that era, while it
acknowledge' 3 obligation that it would have to be ar not be supposed tha, remained of one religion. It must
church raters, but that argument could not app iy Catholics we became Protestants.when we ceased to be Roman
to houses which they might build upon tuts st replaced himself in th Henry VIII. had only
estates. It -was not to be wondered at that is 'ti throned. the Po • ____e position from which he had do-
pe Elizabeth was as arbitrary as Mary,
the memory of many members, there shouldwbi and under the '
havt ' of the Stuarts the Star Chamber made short work
grown up a determined opposition to church Noncoufo •
rates, 'EANonconformists. (Hear, hear). The country only by
contended that the grievances of Dissenters degrees r s comprehended the full import of " civil and
wise and speedy adjustment. Not n 1 re sired a‘ religious liberty," and while the Test and Corporation
only • •
rates in some places practically abandoned Were church Acts continued unrepealed church rates could, with some
avoid any ill blood or bad spirit, but ' V '
41 order so when
to ‘ sort of consistency, be levied. But it was otherwi
driven to use various devices in •Isissenters were \ the law recognised Dissenters. (Hear.) And to persist
payment of church rates. Th °- rder to evade the insolence
Ain in retaining church rates was to persevere in all the
two kinds—the first was b c's'..: devices we of Land,andclinging to the spirit of obsolete
re of 'atolerance. And if they were retained from pecuniary
warden, who was a I)* 5' appointing ••
• si si• and desirethe of D'
Mel' a church- 1' Ilautira..ons a. uto grasp money is-
making a nominal rate, ,ter, and the other b co, % then s
`ere Le motive was one so contemptible that
it was an argument again, ' lie could not admit sent irit of intolerance was comparatively respectable,
ber of petitions were pr st his bill that no great the al s retention of the penal laws appeared by comparison
esented in its favour, nom- and al
' ebbs. (Hear.) With these :ling he came to
and that almost n.

.119 consilert..Lien of t.ll
lean-Is.' gentleman v'l
repetition
in that house
by Mr. Du
when it v

proposal by the 'hon. and
—,ch, in the first 'Ace; was only the
mea,-,are repeatedly proposed and rejected
So long ago as IS4O it was brought forward
abe, and subsequently by Mr. Page Wood,
supported, only by twe- '

tty
,Tid the n

measu

:)re inia

resisted by .Sir R. peel, b., (,
(Lord ...T. Russell). Any r
injurious it would be hard to ColleiliVC. WOu--
to excite the utmost and ill-feeling, dividinii,
the parishioners compulsorily into classes, and com-
pallinm men to define their opinions, who, perhaps, pre-
viously hardly kneW that they differed. The principle of
the measure was to relieve only dissenters, exacting a
declaration, of conscientious objection on the .gno round of
.-conformity. But how could the sincerity of the de-
claration be ascertained or tested'? (Hear.) After a man
had made it was he to be excluded from the` arish
h hi crc
om
h.?
-Was the beadle to stand at the doorto preent fr
entering—(a Inngh) ; or if he entered was ho to be sub-
jected to a suit in the, ecclesiastical Courts ? And if he
had a family were they to be precluded from entering the

ten:

church ?
Mr. PHILLIMORE.—Nro—(a laugh).
Sir W. CL .y.—Then fi man ef wore ingenuity than
sincmity might easily let his whole faintly attend church
and escape paying for its support ? (Hear, and a laugh.)
Would such a course be satisfactory to such as wore sin-
cere on either side. (Hear, hear.) And why should it be
assumed that the members of the Church of England were
satisfied with the present state of things or desire church
rates t be cons tinueemb,ir of the d? He believed thhat
of they Eng wland, ere nothe
For himself, a m
would abolish- church rates,• in the firm belief by that
course the Church would be strengthened and not weak-
ened. Within the last 20 years more churches had sprung
tip than for centuries past, and considering the present posi-
tion of the Establishment, and the multitude of churches
which abounded. he saw no reason toanticipato a falling-off
in the exertions ia its behalf. Mr. Edward Baines, on the
authority of Dr. Hook, had stated that since church rates
were refused in I,2eds the parish church had been rebuilt,

at an expense of 30,000 C, and six other churches and

thirty-seiQn schools established at a cost of 109,0001.
The dissenters, in the meantime, had raised 35,0001.
for the same purpose. In the face of such facts could there
be any doubt that the zeal of members of the Establish-

ment would fail to supply the necessary funds for Church
purposes ? As, however, the total abolition of church

rates was not deemed an acceptable proposal, he was pre-
p tred with a sul stitute, which: ho held to be unobjection-
a.ble in principle and easy of application. Nothing could
better attest the imperfection of the present system than
the large increase of dissenting places of worship, which
exceeded the places of worship belonging to the Establish-
ment, and were most likely attended by a larger aggregate
congregation. Under these circumstances, should they,
the members of the Chtireh of England, be se' dead to all
feeling of self-respect, and he might' say of common
honesty, as to permit the dissenters to contribute to the
support of the Church as well as of their own places of
worship ? If the reasons for the abolition of church rates
wire stronger sinco 1837 (which he contended to be the
case', the facilities for carrying it out had also increased.
The substitute, then, he proposed, was a system of pew
rents, which should be devoted to defraying the charges
of the minister and the celebration of Divine worship.
The people were already familiarised with this plan,
which, in its more extended application, would in no way
interfere with the provision of gratuitous seats for the
poor. But the source to which he chiefly looked for the
necessary funds was that of the surplus revenues of the
Church of England. (Hear, hear.) Last year, in an
address to the Crown by the prelates, members of the
Privy Council, and others, they stated it had been also
shown that by a better system of managing Church pro-
perty not less than half a million a year could be obtained
within a few years for the support of additional clergymen
in the new churches to which it was proposed to direct the
surplus ; and the noble lord the member for the city of
London had said on the occasion of the proposal of 1837,
that it was quite as necessary to provide for the establish-
ment of religious peace and harmony in the Church as to
provide for the dignity of the Church and hierarchy. He
(Sir W. Clay) would not dwell upon the revelations of-the
last fear years, although ho might, perhaps, excite a smile
were he to refer to the complaints of some of the episcopal
beach that their already large incomes were insufficient ;
to the sums which had been retained out of the produce Of
the episcopal revenues ; to the large sums laid out on epis-
copal palaces ; and to the items for gamekeepers and watch-
ers. He might excite a smile, perhaps, by such revelations
concerning those meek and lowly descendants of the apostles;
but he preferred resting his case on the broad ground of
• justice. The surplus of half a million a year was,twofold
greater than the sum which Lord Althorp thought it neces-
sary to charge on the general revenue for the purpose of
extinguishing church rates. Even without pew rents the
surplus revenues of church property, if that property
were properly managed, would provide an ample sub-
stitute for the present church rates. By maintaining
the present system, injustice and a wrong were done
to their nonconforming brethren. In fact, it was spolia-
tion in disguise. He, therefore, placed his resolution
in the hands of the house, earnestly entreating it not to
reject it. That there was an imperative necessity for legis-
lation of some kind, was admitted on all hands. Church
rates could not long remain upon the statute book. He
earnestly implored the Government, and more especially
the noble lord the member for the city of London, to un-
dertake the good work of abolishing this odious and unjust
impost. By so doing the Government would earn a fresh
title to the gratitude and respect of the great Liberal
party, and establish a lasting claim upon the confidence of
all those to Whom the principles of religious liberty were
dear. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PETO, in seconding the motion, said he thought
it a happy omen for the dissenters, that both the reso-
lution and the amendment had been brought forward
by liberal and consistent members of the Establishment.
The dissenters paid not only for tho support of their
own edifices, but of the churches of the Establishment.
(Hear, hear.) If it was necessary to give an example of
what had been effected by relying solely on the voluntary
principle, he might instance the result of the Rev. Mr.
Dale's exertions in London, who, by making an appeal
to the good feelings of the inhabitants, had been met with
such a hearty response as had enabled him to overcome
every difficulty. He might also mention the success
attendant upon the Rev. Mr. Bickersteth, of St. Giles's,
exertions, who contrived, without in any way interfering
with his dissenting brethren, to accomplish the largest re-
sults. He (Mr. Pete) could not but feel that for the
Church's own sake legislation was required on this sub-
ject. Indeed, if the hon. gentlemen wished to stop what
was termed the turbulence of dissent, they could only do
so by acting justly toward the Church of England herself.
And he must say it was quite as painful to him (Mr. Peto)
and his friends as it ever could be to members of the
Church of England, to see accusations brought against a
prelate in the most influential journal in Europe, which, if
they had remained without denial, would have excluded
any merchant in London from the Royal Exchange—acchsa-
tions which cast a foul blot upon our common Christianity.
(Hear.) If the noble lord the member for the city of Lon-
don—the author of the Test and Corporation Act—would
immortalise his name, let him place himself at the head of
the movement for the reform of the Church. But there
was another aspect in which the question was to be viewed.
The prelates of the Church of England were members of a
Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts,
Well, they ought to know that in the city of Calcutta alone
there were no less than fourteen prints published for the
use of the natives alone ; and yet in these very papers all
such matters as he had just referred to were carefully held
up for the inspection of a •fellow-subjects there... At the
present moment there was one person resident in the city
of Lucknan who had subscribed 80,0001. for the building of
a temple there, and another gentleman in Calcutta had
given 150,0001. for a similar purpose. Well, was it pos-
sible, in. the face of such instances of generosity, to witness
our own prelates held up to public reprobation without
bringing a blush of shame into the face of every Christian
—without bringing the principles of religion into disrepute?
The dissenters only asked to be left to themselves, and to
he relieved from clihrges which pressed alike painfully upon
churchmen as upon themselves. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. coLLIEr. was exceedingly happy to find that at
length the objections to church rates had penetrated even
to that venerable and ancient abode, Doctors' Como-ions.
itself. On, however, balancing the respective merits of the
two propositions before the house he must confess that the
proposition of the hon. baronet the member for the Tower
Hamlets was far more suited to the exigencies of the case
and the wants of the country. Of all the taxes levied off
the community, he _believed chinch rates were the most
objectionable. They were objectionable because they were
levied upon all for the benefit of the few--because they
were uncertain as to this property from which they were
raised—hecnung they were uncertain as to the purposes to
which they could be applied—and, lastly, because they
were enforcible only in the ecclesiastical courts of this
country—courts whase method was so tedious, expensive,
and dilatory, fl 3 to tax to the very utmost the funds of the
suitors and: the patience of the public. (Hear, hear.)
The lion, and learned member for Tevistock proposed that
-rah rates should be leviable as at present, excepting
!es to be made in the case of.any person
end mid ho was as dissenter. His chief
eh-position was that it left all persons
leciaeations that they were dissenters
h rates, subject to all the doubts and
h /ell sureeendesl the -law. He was, then,
savour of the proposal of the hon. baronet the
her for the Tower ilamlets, which would throw the
hintenance of churches upon the funds which were origi-
nally devoted to that purpose, and which ought to have
continued devoted to that, inasmuch as he believed such
an arrangement would conduce to the benefit of the public,.
but above all to the interesls of the Church. (Hear, hear.)
Mr:E.-BALL could not think that the-heel-there might
lbe very strong objections to church rates, still it could be
onsidere.l-- a violation of conscience to pay them, in ace<ir-
Elan CO with law, which if it enforced church rates from dis-
hentera, on the other hand protected them and their pro-
Pe
sty If, however, there had been any doubt as to the
"
Dees; ssity of coming to a decision upon this question, what
had Wen advanced by the hon. and learned gentleman
must pc:l-feet-17 satisfy every one that a settlement could no
longer be 41elassed. He must say, however, that ho ob-
jected to the proposition of the hon. and learned member
for Tavistocka because he considered it to be a premium
upon dissent, rind he seemed to have recourse to such
means to propssgate sectarian views. He thought also
that it would tend to produce a clashing of various
inte-
reets ; for suppose the case of a Dissenter having a child to'
-bury—he came to the clergyman to ask for burial, but the
latter turned round and told him he could have no such
cl situ,' no he paid no rates. He hoped that upon tha pre-
sent 'question some understanding would be arrived at
which would remove those feelings of discord, and promote
a kiodiier spirit amongst all parties than had existed here-
tofore. (Hear, hear.)
Mr,
.11UME said, as Parliament had como to the doter-
Mination of abolishing church rates in Ireland, ho could
not understand why it should not abolish them in Eng-
land. He had
always maintained that the property of the
Church should maintain the Church. The present law in
racnsapedcits.utonicohnurcih rates had ever been. a source of discord
ward a proposition
ISt when Lord Althorp brought for-
-well as in Ireland to abolish church rates in England as
lord wanted to throwlie opposed it simply because the noble
Fund'. The
elio the whole burden upon the Consoli-
datedd learned gentleman, in intro-
ducing the eubject tonti3.on.l7l
of the present system. In
convincing gpeech as to the ©vile
had made no doubt a most
the first paragraph of his speechev' hon, and learned gen-
tleman said that the Church should make a sacrifice; but
and learned gentle-
he (Mr. Hume) did not hear thealrinel._
theo Church look to
man propose any sacrificemacteial.m,„tu
her own resources. The
matter into
fp) large a money surplus that they had ahiTemii!liehers had
Isoped that the Government would take thel) led He
srd_ put an cud to it at once.' bo-
flusir own hands,
1 fh.tt the remedy proposed by the bon es iaaah
he": for Taviatock would but add to the diauuipn such
3110111, at present existed in respect to this subject.
chi. conclusion that the best and simplest wa;
estion „S
, to place the church rate upon
to the Establishment. He would ad-
sir N• Clay) to alter his amendment
403. 11 on that church rates should cease
ei money req Ind for the repairs of

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