The Sun.
London, England, 1853-08-17 00:00:00

that when there was a question as to whether there should
be a discussion in this house, I did not say, nor did my
noble friend near me say, that we refused any discussion,
and were not prepared to meet that discussion ; we
only said that we did not think it would be for the benefit
of the public service that any such discussion should take
place, and a great majority of the house, when the house
was more full than it is at present, fully concurred in the
opinion that, if the Government thought it was not sofor the
anybody had
then said
suchdisctuhsastiotnhe courseshould nooftthteakeplace.
Government If
should be interrupted, and that some adverse motion ought
to be made, I would have been ready to meet that motion,
and I certainly understood from the hon. member for
Aylesbury that he would rather wish to support the Go-
vernment. (Hear.) I cannot believe, if an attempt should'
be made by Russia to invade Turkey, that the Christian
subjects of the Turkish Government would be indisposed
to assist them. I think the case would not be very diffe-
rent from.that which is related in an anecdote of Charles
11., who, with his usual wit, on an occasion when the Duke
of York said he should take care of his life, and hoped he
would not go in so unguarded a manner about the streets
as he was in the habit of going, said, " I will tell you what,
brother ; I have this security, I do not think anybody will
kill me in order that you may succeed." (Laughter.) In
the same way the Mahomedan yoke is not so hateful to the
Christian subjects of the Porte that they would be rejoiced
to have that power overthrown in order that they might
see a Russian power established in its place.
Mr. MUNTZ would also relate an anecdote of King
Charles 11. When refusing a demand that had been made
by the Dutch ambassador, he said to him, " You would
not have dared to make such a proposal to Oliver Crom-
well." " Your Majesty," replied the ambassador, "is a
very different man from Oliver Cromwell." (Hear.) If
they had a different set of men in the government of this
country in the present day the Russians would not have
marched into the Danubian provinces, and they had done so
because the Emperor of Russia entertained the opinion that
nothing would make this country go into a war. They had
prevented the manufacture of arms in this country which
were to be sent to Poland to assist in gaining the liberties
of a people who would be the real barriers against the ex-
tension of Russian power. They had permitted the inter-
ference of Russia in Hungary, and he considered that the
interference of a second party between the governed and
the governors was a great piece of injustice, and should
never have been allowed by any civilised people. (Hear.)
They were now reaping the fruits of their conduct; they
had allowed all the natural barriers of Russia to be de-
stroyed; and they had given an opportunity to the Emperor
of Russia of carrying out his intentions and taking posses-
sion of Turkey on the very first opportunity. (Hear, hear.)
Did her Majesty's Government believe that this business
was at an end? When the Russian troops were about
crossing the Pruth the Government of this country should
have said that if they crossed the Pruth it would be a case
of war, and thereby have prevented them from occupying
the Turkish provinces; but the Russian troops had not
only crossed the Pruth, but had occupied the provinces,
and they evidently had an intention to enter into perma-
nent occupation of the provinces. (Laughter.) They had
caused the humiliation of Turkey by inducing her to give
way, and the least they should have done was to say that,
before they made any terms with Russia, they should
evacuate those province:. He was sure the people of this
country were very much disappointed at what had taken
place. Not only the members of the house, but the people
out of doors, were anxious on the subject. (Hear, hear.)
They felt that the honour of the country had been sullied,
and that all sense of honour was lost, because the country
was uow governed by considerations of pounds, shillings,
and pence. If Oliver Cromwell were now governing this
country, would the Russians have entered those provinces?
What did he do in Italy and in France, when they took mea-
sures against some of their own countrymen ? He inter-
fered without any considerations of expense, because it
was a question of honour with him, and not a question of
pound; shillings. and pence. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BLACKETT would not leave himself open to the
censure of the noble lord at the head of the Government
by criticising late transactions, until they were placed be-
fore them in an authentic form, but at the same time he
thought that the noble lord, by steadily. refusing to take
Parliament and the people of England into his councils,
had increased greatly the responsibility that rested upon the
Government; and of course the future judgment of the
house must be severer than it would otherwise be if it
should turn out that, when Parliament reassembled, the
noble lord had been mistaken in his views or that he had
miscalculated his own position. There was one point that
he wished to press upon the house, and that had reference
to the occupation of the Danubian provinces. The noble
lord left them in no doubt upon the subject, because, from
his eloquent silence, they could not think they were wrong
in assuming that no mention of the evacuation of the prin-
cipalities was contained in the terms to which they were
told the Emperor of Russia had assented. The question as
to the evacuation of the principalities seemed to him to be
of far more importance than the terms of any treaty which
the Emperor of Russia and the Sultan might agree to. He
had never doubted that the ingenuity of diplomatists
would be able to contrive some document which either
party could sign without much humiliation; but the ques-
tion of the continued occupation of the principalities was
more important, because it was more manifest to Europe,
and more decided in its pressure on the population. He
should be sorry to see Turkey signing any treaty of a hu-
miliating character, but the knowledge of that treaty
would be confined to a comparatively limited circle of per-
sons interested in diplomatic affairs, and many years might
elapse before either power was called upon to put that
treaty into execution, and they had the chapter of acci-
dents to trust to ; but the occupation of the principalities
by Russian troops was a fact that pressed itself upon the
attention of every peasant in Wallachia and Moldavia, and
was calculated to disorganise the entire Turkish system.
It would be out of the power of those principalities to
obtain any treaty that would enable them to avoid the in-
tolerable position of occupying the debateable ground be-
tween two hostile empires. The occupation of the pro-
vinces was calculated to extend the prestige of the Russian
empire, and was pregnant above all with the most fatal
consequences to the permanent peace of Europe. What was
the ground on which the permanent peace of Europe rested?
It was not on the power of any single nation ; nor, as had
been foolishly represented, on the magnanimity of any sin-
gle sovereign ; nor on the wisdom or moderation of popu-
lar assemblies. The peace of Europe really rested upon
the general conviction that any power that was the first
to break it was sure to find the whole of Europe leagued
against it, and was sure to come off the loser. (Hear.) If they
would only cast their eyes over the map of Europe, they
would everywhere find that powerful states were, perhaps
naturally and excusably, inspired by a wish to increase
their resources and extend their territories ; and side by
side they found weak states offering, but for those barriers,
an easy prey to cupidity and ambition. (Hear, hear.) It
was nothing but a prudent and honourable apprehension
of drawing down upon themselves the reprobation and
chastisement of their allies. (Hear, hear.) It was that
feeling which had prevented France from intermeddling
with Belgium, Prussia from absorbing Saxony, and Aus-
tria from interfering with the Sardinian States, and which,
until within the last few months, kept Russia beyond the
Pruth ; and he was sure that those apprehensions would
still restrain Russia within proper limits if the Govern-
ments of England and France remained firm. (Hear, hear.)
If they wished to maintain those barriers, it was absolutely
necessary that the failure of the Emperor of Russia in his
present schemes should be as palpable and unquestionable
as his original pretensions were (in the words of Lord Lynd-
hurst) audacious. The Government should not lose time
in devising terms to soothe his mortified spirit, but should
rather hold the case up as a warning from Europe tp the
next malefactor who attempted to disturb the public peace.
(Hear, hear.) If that result were arrived at, he should re-
joice that England and France had joined together to
achieve that great triumph. (Hear, hear.) He could not
conceive why the Government should deviate from its
straightforward course, or allow itself to be in the least
degree swayed by dynastic sympathies. (Hear.) By such
a policy they would sow the seeds of disorganisation '• they
would proclaim, in accents not difficult to understand,
that England was ready enough to threaten, but if she
were only pressed, she was sure to shrink from having re-
curse to arms. (Hear.)

Mr. COBDEN—I do not exactly see that there is any
difference of opinion on the question that is before us. I
find everybody is agreed that Russia has acted in a' man-
ner that is treacherous, heedless, and violent. I find that
in and out of the house everybody entertains the ooinion
that the most fortunate result of the late proceedings% the
East is that it has brought about a firm alliance, not only
between the people of England and France, but between
the Governments of England and France, for I never can
cease to separate the people de facto from their Govern-
ments. Everybody wishes that Russia would evacuate
the principalities, and the noble lord has himself expressed
his conviction that this object will be attained; and I be_
lieve everybody in the house and out of it, would be will-
ing to wait a few months longer and have all those ques-
tions settled peaceably. I think that, even in Birmingham
itself, though muskets are manufactured there, the people,
if there was a meeting held in the Town-hall, would rather
support the noble lord in a pacific policy than precipitate
the country into a war to obtain the same objects a month
or two earlier. But though evidently there is a giJeat ac-
quiescence of opinion amongst us all, there is still a great
deal of uneasiness on the subject of Turkey. Is not the
reason obvious, though we will not face it, and will rather
deal with the superficies of the matter than deal with the
interior of it. It is this—because there is a growing con-
viction in our minds that what has been hitherto a purrent
phrase, " the independence of the Turkish Empire," has
now becorae a mere empty phrase, and nothing, more;
because the fact is, that within the last twenty years there
has been a growing conviction in the minds of people that
the Turks in Europe are intruders—that it is not their do-
micile or their permanent home—that their home is in Asia,
that Mahomedanism cannot exist in Europe alongside of
civilised states. The progress of events has given an impetus
to that opinion, which is grounded on the conviction that you
cannot maintain Mahomedanism in Europe. Do what you
will that is your opinion—that is the embarrassment we
feel—that is the embarrassment of the Government in deal-
ing with the subject. In dealing with it, we are not in
earnest in the belief that we can preserve Mahomedanism
in Europe. (Hear.) I have no wish to see the Russians in
Constantinople, but I will not prevent them by our taking
our stand for the preservation of Mahomedanism in Europe.
If we or the Americans were the next neighbours of Tur-
key, judging bY what they and we have done elsewhere, and
what we have done with regard to half-a-dozen 311ahome.
den dynasties in India, we would have swallowed them
up long ago. (Hear.) There is another fact that has come
up, and that is the existence of a large Christian popula-
tion in Turkey in Europe. (Hear.) The fact is prominently
before us that the Christian element in Turkey in Europe
is now the prominent one, and we cannot ignore it, because
for every one Turk in Turkey in Europe there are three
Christians in Turkey in Europe. (Hear.) The great ma-
jority of the people in Turkey in Europe are Christians,
and the question is, what are the feelings of the Christian
population towards their Mahomedan rulers. (Hear.) I be-
lieve that the feeling amongst the Christian population in
the interior of Turkey is not favourable. I believe that in
the large cities, in Smyrna and in Constantinople, the
Christians eajoy a certain portion of protection, but if you
alinadridviloolteinntdceked,.an;dtiotnheoyf arean
go into the interior of Turkey all the evidence goes to con-
firm
there is rot a cacti,
me when I state that the Christian population in the
interior of Turkey, in the small towns and villages, have a
very
or
pasha,
eihanass insolent et
hsonl barons people evemri
moment they were. (Hear, hear.) At this
not oppress the castedo soldier ra undernt
hd a at bmaythear-
as they were poor peasant in the interior almost as badly
(Hear, hear.‘ oppressed two or three hundred years ago.
) These are coming to a decisio facts that you cannot ignore in
of the Christian n on the question of what is the feeling
lord offered theol,iionpitoilation. (Hear, hear.) The noble
to the Russians. menarth.at they would prefer the Turks
But I must say for lnyseifilear.) Well, that is possible.
—hay' • •
having visited both countries

—that if I were a rayah—that is, a Cluistiansabject of the
Porte - -I should prefer a Russian or any other Government
rather than a Mahomedan one. (Hear, hear, and marks of
dissent.) Ido not say but that the hon. member for Pon-
tefract, who has travelled in Turkey and in Egypt, would
not find himself a great deal freer man in either of those
countries than in Russia. Bat it would be a very efferent
thing if he were to become a resident in the East, to mount
the badge in his cap, and to be placed in the position of a
rayah or Christian subject of the Porte. I admit it is a
matter of opinion, but it is an open question whether they
would not prefer the Russian to the Mahomedan rule.
All I wish to urge is this, that that is a question which
we must entertain. We am not taking the course which
will ensure Turkish independence of other powers, un-
less we carry the great bulk of the population in Tur-
key with us. It is obvious that we cannot consider
their wishes at present. The question ought to be more
discussed ; it presses upon us all, and it will press upon us
still more—it will hamper the Government in all their
negotiations, especially on the question of resisting force
by force. It may be possible for a time, if you will, to
undertake to say how the eastern part of Europe shall be
governed, but in the end we must go further, and from a
consideration of the wishes of the people themselves we
must undertake to say who shall permanently govern the
Turkish empire. That is a question on which I dare say
the hon. member for Aylesbury would be able greatly to
enlighten us, and to tell us what. the tendencies of the
Wallachians—what the tendencies of the Servians—what
the tendencies of the Greeks may be; it is difficult for us
to know them all, but of this I am quite sure, that we
shall have our hands full if we undertake to deal with this
question as it ought to be dealt with. As to sending our
fleet to the Bay of Beelike, and keeping the Russians out
of Constantinople—that you may do, no doubt. Russia
has always avoided a collision with a maritime power. She
has avoided it with America—she has avoided it with.
England—because in such a collision all the illusion re-
specting her greatness would be dispelled at once. But in
the meantime you are keeping up an enormous armament,
which does not tend to settle the question—you are induc-
ing the Turkish Government to prepare for war, which will
bring ruin and bankruptcy on her finances—you are there-
by placing Turkey in a more feeble and prostrate condition
than she was in before. I have no doubt the Government
will prevent a war, but the question will not be settled; it
will come up again ; and you must therefore address your-
selves, as men of sense and men of energy, to the question
—what are you to do with the Christian population ? for
Mahomedanism cannot be maintained, and, what is more,
I should be sorry to see this country fighting for the main-
tenance of Mahomedanism. I never could get up any zeal
on behalf of the Mahouiedans ; they keep th plague—they
keep slavery—they have a bazaar for the sale of black and
white slaves. You may keep Turkey on the map of Europe;
you may call the country by the name of Turkey if you
like, but do not think you can keep up the Mahomedan
rule in that country. A great deal has been said about the
necessity of maintaining the independence of Turkey on
account of her commerce. Now, as a Free-trader, I must
once for all enter my protest against fighting for a market
at all. I never would consent to fight for a low tariff. In
the first place, I deny that you could do so. You fought
for a tariff in Spain, and after spending 203 or 300 millions
of money in keeping Spain out of the hands of an enemy
who would have excluded your commerce, you accomplished
your object, and Spain and Portugal repaid your exertions
by enac sing the most restrictive tariffs in Europe. You
occupied Sicily during the whole of the last war ; and
when you left it, what sort of tariff was enacted for your
manufactures ? (Hear, hear.) In the next place, I have
too much faith in my principles to go to war for them. I
believe that fret-trade principles will spread and make
converts by means of peace. We are making converts
every day by the proofs we are affording of the salutary
and striking benefits of free trade. (Hear.) Therefore
do not talk of war as a means of removing restrictions, or
of opening markets. Besides, the noble lord is under a
great delusion as to the accounts of our commerce with
Turkey. The returns for which he moved, and on which
he relies, are the returns of exports to the Black Sea, which
are sent most of them to Austria, up the Danube. It is
not Turkish commerce. Constantinople is a mere depot
from whence our goods are sent to Tiebizond and elsewhere
—there is very little consumption of our commerce in the
dominions of Turkey. Though I have no partiality for
Russia—on the contrary, lam not sorry to see the great
representative of the despotic principle humiliated and dis-
honoured by the mean plottings and contrivances which he
has carried on through the whole of these transactions; yet,
let us not delude ourselves with any idea of danger result-
ing to this country from Russian ascendancy. I maintain
that all the commerce we have on the Black Sea is owing
to Russian invasion. We never had any commerce in the
Black Sea until Russia took possession of the Crimea.
What is the fear, then, that Russia would exclude our
commerce if she were to retain the province? We need
not fear but that Russia will be as glad to send us hercorn
then as she is now. Take the case of Russia on the other
side of Europe—take our trade with Russia in the Baltic.
Our exports, indeed, are not large, because Russia has fol-
lowed the example we set her, and placed restrictions upon
our manufactures, as we 30 or 40 years ago placed restric-
tions on her produce. But still for the native produce we
do take from her we pay her in sugar and other articles. I
therefore discard the idea altogether that Russia will dis-
courage our trade. What, on the other hand, is the pros-
pect of our trade with Turkey? It is a country without a road.
You cannot go three miles out of Constantinople, or any
of the large towns, except on horseback. Constantinople
has no pavement—it has no lamps—it has no scavengers
except the dogs ; it has not a building of stone or brick.
It is known as an historical fact, in the flowery language
of Burke, that the Turks have been a curse and a blight
wherever they have come. Ido not defend Russia, but do
not let us suppose that they will refuse to trade with us.
Go to St. Petersburg—a city that may vie with London—
a city that has all the splendour and magnificence of Paris,
with a river twice the breadth of the Thames running
through it. Let any man go to St. Petersburg or to Mos-
cow, and then let him go to Constantinople, the one built
on the most favoured situation on the face of the earth,
the other in the midst of every disadvantage, and yet see
the contrast. Constantinople is, as an American traveller
has said, a city of boxes, with lids that are open all day
and shut at night. (Laughter.) Do not deceive yourselves
and pretend that we aro the natural allies of such a coun-
try for the purpose of trade. I protest against the argu-
ment that 1t is for the interest of England, or that we are
bound to maintain Turkey in possession of those rich and
fertile territories. There may be other political reasons,
but I object to facts being brought forward which have no
foundation, in order to mislead the English people in re-
gard to their true interests. These points must be deve-
loped—they must be reasoned upon—they must be dwelt
on for the next few years. The present question may
be settled—l do not expect that it will lead to war
—I do not find any sensible people who. ever did ex-
pect that. (Hear, and laughter.) A great deal has been
said about the power of Russia, and about the danger
to England if Russia were allowed to occupy the countries
of the Bosphorus. I never shared that opinion. wrote
upon that question eighteen years ago, at a time when
people were much madder upon the question than they
are now—when the predecessor of the hon. member for
Birmingham was crying out night after night for a war
with Russia. I had travelled in that country, and I ex-
pressed my opinion-t-an opinion which all the recent
events have only tended to confirm—that it was absurd to
talk of Russia invading England. Why, she cannot move
an army to her own frontiers, except by the aid of foreign
gold. I said so not long since iu the City, that she could
not make any aggressive movement, except by the aid of
an English loan ; and nine months afterwards I attended
in the same room in the city, to denounce a loan of six
millions, which was about to be raised under the pretence
that it was for the Moscow railroad. I had seen it myself
nearly six months before, and it was then nearly finished ;
so that it was absurd to talk of the loan being intended
for that scheme. The country is poor and thinly popu-
lated—it is a mere series of villages ; how could it in-
jure England or France? It may possess Turkey, be-
cause Turkey is in a state of decay, and when a country
falls into decrepitude, its next neighbour will be sure to
take it if he can. I repudiate the notion of Russia in-
vading England. But what has been done, and by Eng-
land, towards such of the Mahomedan powers as we are
neighbours to in India? We have not been a whit less
unscrupulous in our diplomacy towards them than Russia
has been to Turkey, and especially in the way that, within
the last two years, we have dealt with Burmah. But
however Russia may deal with Turkey, I do not see what
right we have to interfere with a matter so far removed
from us. I believe that England would be ready to resist
an attack from whatever quarter it might come, and that
she would be ten times more powerful to resist than Russia
to attack. All the resources that we have in our vast ma-
nufactures—all the appliances that we possess in our pro-
digious steam-vessels, and in our mechanical skill, would
be turned in six months—ay, in six days—to the contriv-
ance of engines of destruction which would render us more
powerful than any other nation on the face of the earth.
All these are wanting in Russia ; they must come here for
their steam-boats, or for the artisans to make them, and
there is not a chance of their injuring us. But while I say
this, let me address a word to those members who repre-
sent the manufacturing districts—let me give them a word
of advice as to the position we should occupy if war were
to break out. The sufferings which that event would oc-
casion would be such as those who only remember the war
that commenced sixty years ago can have no conception
of. In the first place, we have a vast increase in material
wealth, and that wealth has greatly increased our manu-
facturing population. Where we had one man dependent
upon the raw materials supplied by foreign countries in
1793, we have twenty-five men now. Where we had
30,000,000 or 40,000,000 of exports then, we have 80,000,000
or 90,000,000 now. Let me tell my friends the members
for the manufacturing towns, who talk so glibly of war,
that while I agree with them that in a war to defend
this kingdom England would bring all her resources to
bear, and would defend herself against all the world, yet
I say that if England were to go further, and to engage in
a continental war, you do not know what belligerents you
might have in six months after its declaration. (Hear.)
A war now would be attended with consequences of which
the present generation little think, or they would not talk
of it so glibly. In the first place, you would have the
Americans, whose country was a mere infant in 1793, and
to whom we could then say, " You shall come to no part
in Europe except by our permission," and we could seize
their ships and press their crews at our pleasure. Now, if
war were to break out, what would be the first thing we
should be called upon to do? Why, we should be called
upon by the Americans to disavow the right of search.
We could not refuse that, and that concession would place
America at once as our rival in the carrying trade of
Europe. And remember, you have now repealed your
navigation laws. In 1793 you could send out large fleets
of merchant ships' under the oonvoy of ships of war, twice
a year. You had the monopoly of the seas ; and it did not
matter to you when or how your ships sailed, because other
countries must wait upon you for their supplies. But
what would be the case now, if you were to go to war?
If you were engaged in war with a maritime power, they
would issue letters of marque to fleets of steamers, who
could take refuge when they pleased in Stockholm or other
neutral ports. Your insurances for freights would rise
at Lloyd's in proportion to the risk of capture. How
would your manufacturers—how would your numerous
and wealthy colonies consent to bring over their freights
in English bottoms, when Hamburgers and Frenchmen
were not subject to the same risk ? Remember that
the repeal of the navigation laws has thrown you open to
the competition of the whole world in shipping, as in every-
thing else. I must beg my honourable friend the member
for Newcastle—and Newcastle had often sent bellicose
members to this house—to remember that there is no port
which would suffer more severely, more in proportion to
the magnitude of its commerce, than Newcastle would do,
if we should go to war. But I beg pardon of the house
for having gone into these considerations. All I wish to
say is that I think the Government have done wisely in
disregarding the cry of thoughtless men ; they have done
wisely in not listening to the cry of the newspapers, some
of which profess the democratic principle, as if democracy
ever gained by war. The Government havedone right,
cinnoouttenroterrisly[s for the
wthaeri ntstheelerveessiist
as; :f
shallow
wr theimf ectnohnewnythr country but
should plunge
evencp uv
nffgoo:rri
ttv
hhha
ore
would in less than six weeks call for the disgrace an e
removal of the very Ministers who began the war. I have j