The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-23 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 23, 1853,

person. the
.But Church hadtt he should enter upon the entire
always been- a body de- But when the second clause came under the considera-
dependent upon the governing power of the country. tion of the commi
ethee bill, and state his objections to
About 400 years ago, all that which was at present the subject embraced by
property of -the Church- of England was enjoyed by her it. (Hear, hoar.)
The house then went into committee on the bill; Mr.
rival. It had been given to the Church of Rome by
kings and princes. But,
.nevertheless, in course of time Bouverie in the chair.
The first clause was agreed to • and on the second, which
it was considered that this property ought to be other-
wise disposed of, and it was therefore summarily taken
fprovidesoi that a tt
htehi
re psrteopekrierteoeeisiovfe'tBh2el.Thmeree. pNereCwenls..
imosa.y,
away from the Roman Catholic Church and handed over
1.91r01. 2/..105. per cent., or 100/. Exchequer Bond, carrying
interes at 21. 15s. per cent. not later then the Ist of Sep-
t ethers. (" No, no.") He was at a loss to under-
Ind that cry ; he certainly thought he had givenhatctohre•
tember, 1864, and after at 21. 10s. per cent.
rect statement of the facts. The truth was,
Sir F. KELLY solicited the attention of the committee
property of the Church of England did not retsta. upon
any contract, but upon the conviction existim in the whilst he offered some observations, not merely upon the
mila ds of the people that they had the greatest interest principle of thehill, but upon its provisions. The princi-
in
retaining the property in the hands of its present ple of the measure was unexampled in extent and impor-
h olders. Upon the general question, then, this right of tance. It affected a sum amounting to
'not less than
property could offer no answer to the bill. They could
100,000,0001. sterling, and ultimately it might apply to
500,000,000/., if not to the entire amount of the capital of
not, in the present advanced state of Canada, safely say
to the
of dealing w Canadiith publicans that the
proy
perty should
thenroet
as have twhasepdoewaelrt
the national debt. If after the great and brilliant effort
with in this country. In conclusion,
true friends of the Church of oratory and reasoning with which the house was. at once
that he did not believe the the noble earl said
delighted and instructed last Monday, when he, at least,
leveretobll ;
e found in the opponents, but in the supporters could say he was left under the wand of the enchanter, he
f the hi
and he called upon their lordships not to (Sir F. Kelly) now ventured to advance into the wide field
throw away the opportunity of effecting a settlement of finance which had been opened by the right honourable
which would allay long existing distrust and ill-feeling, gentleman, and upon the threshold expressed his entire
and the further delay of which would undoubtedly pro- dissent from the main pridciple of the scheme of this bill,
yoke consequences for which he was sure their lordships he assured the committee it was not without much diffi-
were not prepared. Canada was now prosperous and deuce and some apprehension. But ho felt it his duty to
loyal • and he warned their lordships not to attempt to
disturb so happy a state of things. call attention to the subject, for the scheme was one of
The Earl of DERBY felt himself called upon to re- a very peculiar character full of intricacies and difficulties.
mark upon the inquiry of the noble earl who had just To the clear and enlightened mind of the right honourable
down, with respect to the way in which he (the Earl of gentleman, to an intellect which, like his, rejoiced in com-
Derby) should vote on this occasion. From the state- plicated subtleties, such a task as he had undertaken might
ment which he (the Earl of Derby) had made, the noble be easy and pleasant , but it must be his (Sir F. Kelly's)
earl must see that while, on the one hand, he could not
consent to adopt the bill in its present shape, he was, no with n-o
other. aid than a commonan
as, understanding, to endeavour to attract attentiond ordinary
to the
on the other, very anxious to call their lordships atten- exact character of the details of this financial scheme-a
tion to a modification which he could only propose in scheme which he was bound to say appeared to him replete
committee. Taking that view, he would wish the bill with perplexities, and abounding from beginning to end
now to be read a second time ; and although he had no with contingencies and uncertainties. (Hear, hear.) The
right to make any personal request of the right rev. pre- bill provided, in the first place, for the extinction and re-
late, he would venture to suggest that it would be for demption of certain South Sea and other minor stocks or
i
the convenience of their lordships that the amendment annuities of the value or amount of about 0,000,QQ0/._star
should be withdrawn. (Rear, hear.) -
ling. To this he could have no objection. It was no doubt
The Bishop of EXETER adopted the suestion, and expedient that these minor stocks should be merged in the
withdrew the amendment. gg larger stock composing, the national debt. That object,
however, might be attained with the greatest facility, look-
The Duke of NEWCASTLE roosed to take the ing at the present state of the money market, either by
committee ou the bill on Monday next; and it would be giving the requisite notice and at once paying off the
an advantage that the noble earl should at once state holders, raising 10,000,0001. for the purpose, or in any way
that might be deemed expedient. But the right hon. gentle-
the nature of the amendment. man e. vidently conceived that the time had arrived when
' The Earl of DERBY said that the bill had only been
certain great-and important objects, which might have delivered that that day ; and as the committee was to be
curred to the minds of other Ministers when in office, but
taken so soon after the second reading, the noble duke
which had never been submitted to Parliament in any
was hardly entitled to ask for the terms of the amend- distinct or tangible' form, might be accomplished. These
ment. Having, however, obtained a copy of the bill objects were three in number-first, to effect a large and
while it was passing through the other house, he had substantial reduction in the capital amount of the debt;
framed the amendment, and although he would not bind secondly, the creation of a permanent 21 per cent: stock ;
himself to the exact words, he would lay it on the table and thirdly, the creation and issue, for the benefit of the
at once. mercantile community, and the relief of the public in.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE had not been aware that general, of Treasury, or Exchequer bonds, transferable
the bill had only been delivered so lately ; but at any from hand to hand. If it were clear from the provisions
o
rate it was read a first time a fortnight ago, so that there of the bill that any one of these three great objects could
was no undue haste in its progress. be successfully accomplished, or even a preparation made,
had had th
Several noble lords here statedor a foundation laid, or the first step taken, consistently
that they e
_ays ago „ with good faith to the national creditor, and the duty
bill delivered to them several d ; and upon this which every minister owed to the State, of securing a fair
the Earl of DERBY acknowledged that he must then be and not disadvantageous bargain for the country-if they
mistaken, or any one of them could be accomplished or even cora-
The bill was then read a second time, and their lord- menced without violating the great constitutional princi-
ships (at half-past eleven) adjourned. pie that the amount of the national debt ought not to be
increased, unless necessity called for it-the bill would
have received his sincere and cordial support. But after
bestowing careful and minute attention upon the scheme,
its intricacies, complications, and uncertainties, he had
arrived at a strong and conscientous conviction, which he
hoped to be successful in impressing upon the committee,
that, as a whole, it was inconsistent, impracticable, mis-
chievous, and unjust-unjust, he meant, because it was
unnecessary. (Hear, hear.) To make a large 'and sub-
stantial addition to the capital of the national debt,' and
to make it under circumstances which led to a reasonable
apprehension that the addition would bye-and-bye be
multiplied twenty and even fifty-fold, was surely object-
ionable ; and therefore he felt called upon to oppose the
principle of the bill, unless the right honourable gentleman
consented so far to modify it as to strike out what he
should hereafter call alternative No. 2 from the second
clause, in order to avoid any increase to the amount of the
national debt, and also for the payment of 21. 15s. per
cent. upon the capital affected for a period of forty years.
(Hear, hear.) He would now proceed to state, not in
legal language, but in language intelligible to all, what the
scheme was, and the three alternatives or bargains which
it proposed the holders of the 10,000,0001. South Sea
and other stock. As originally proposed, the scheme
might have embraced 500,000,0001. but as now proposed it
would be limited under the bill to 30,000,0001. lie would
suppose the owner of 1001. South Sea Stock to come under
the operation of the bill, and to be about to consider in
what position he would be placed towards the Govern-
ment. He might receive 100/. ; that was, he might be
paid off at par if he thought proper. Considering that all
these were three per cent. stocks, and that all three per
cent. stocks of the company were substantially at par, this
was a very obvious mode of settling with the holder. But
the right -hon. gentleman proposed to submit to the option,
net only of the holders of the 10,000,0001. of minor stocks,
but of the holders of the 30,000,0001. of Three per Cent.
Consols, and it might be to the holders of the whole
500,000,0001. Consols, one or the other of these alterna-
tives. But before proceeding further he must observe that
the right honourable gentleman had stated-and stated
necessarily, otherwise his scheme would at once be suicidal
-that his three propositions were alternatives or equiva-
lents. This, indeed, was the essence of the proposal. So
that any one holding South Sea Stock or Three per Cents.,
would find himself in this position, that he might accept
either No. 1, No. 2, or No. 3 of the alternatives, accord-
ing as it might be his interest. Now, a great objection,
he felt was, that whereas these which were represented as
equivalents were not equivalents, or anything approaching
to equivalent • for it would be found on practical experi-
ment, if the bill were passed, when it was too late to apply
a remedy, that the difference between the one and the
other, especially between No. 2 and No. 3, was so great
that the people would wonder how the House of Commons
could possibly have entertained the scheme. (Hear, hear.)
Another objection he felt was, that tho Government,
having the power of accomplishing- the three great objects
to which ho had adverted, instead of proceeding to invite
information as to what ought to be the real terms of the
bargain, and taking the steps which any Ministry attempt.
ing arch an operation ought to have taken, had acted ex-
clusively upon their own judgment. Other Ministries
had issued tenders to ascertain how the country would
take that which they upon the part of the State offered to
grant. But instead of applying such a test to the ques-
tion of what ought to be the terms of this great bargain,
the right honourable gentleman-whose ability and genius
he was the last to question or undervalue-had as-
sumed to himself the faculty of all knowledge. The right
honourable gentleman, in framing this bargain, had
left himself no option and no opportunity of making
better terms' but he had assumed, as if by intuition, that
he possessed the required information, and he had drawn
his three propositions upon data or principles of his own,
in-as he (Sir F. Kelly) presumed to think-entire igno-
rance as to what would be the extent, if he had invited
tenders, to which the moneyed interest would have accepted
the terms. Every holder of 1001. South Sea Stock or other
stock had then the means of converting it into 1001. ster-
ling ; and the question was which of the three proposals he
would accept. The first was this-that for his 1001. he
should accept a 3A per cent. stock, of which the capital
should be 821. 10s. ; that was to say, he might receive
821.105. capital stock for his 1001. sterling at a dividend'of
2/. 17s. 9d., guaranteed for a period of forty years. What
this alternative might be in connection with the others the
time had not yet arrived for him to consider. What 'it
was, standing by itself, if proposed by itself, would be a
fair subject for consideration. It was one which, even if
the bill had been confined to it, would leave the most ex-
perienced and sagacious among them some difficulty in de-
termining. It might well be considered a most important
question whether 30,000,0001. of stock should be created
by payments of 1001., guaranteed 21. 17s. 9d. for forty
years. But it was neither for him nor for the committee
to say whether it was probable any one of these proposals
would be accepted. If they should not, if they were so
disadvantageous to the public creditor that no one could
be found to accept the best of them, then the bill would
fall to the ground a dead letter, the 10,000,0001. of stock
must be paid off, and some other means be found for rais-
ing it, and no great harm would be done. But he was not
dealing with that case. It must be assumed, in order to
deal with the effect of the/bill, that the right hon. gentle.
man was right in holding that at least some one of the
three alternatives would be accepted by the public creditor.
Upon that assumption, looking at the present price of
stocks, with the Three per Cents. at par, the scheme was
just with regard to the Three per Cents., and no more.
Looking, however, at the state of the money market, the
condition of the country as regarded the precious metals,
the state of Europe and the world-all these being practi-
cal considerations and elements in the calculations bearing
upon the bill, he did not pretend to say whether any one
of the three alternatives, when thrown open to the market,
would be accepted. Perhaps one and perhaps another
might be accepted, if each stood alone ; but he entertained
a profound belief that no two would, to any substantial
amount, be accepted. The alternative No.' 2 was to re-
ceive for the same sum of 100/. sterling 21. 15s. per annum
guaranteed for forty years -upon a capital of 1101., as a con-
sideration of the 100/. 'the third was to receive 21. 15s.
per annum for a period which was left in uncertainty:-
which was to depend upon the pleasure of the Government,
ranging from one to ten. years, and for the remaining years
to have a guaranteed dividend of 21. 10s. per annum only,
and that upon a capital of 1001. He would for the present
pass over No. 1, which might or might not present to the
fundholder a bargain he might deem satisfactory ; but he
could not do so without saying, whatever might be the r e
suit of the bill, that the country was ,deeply indebted to
the right hon. gentleman for having, for the first time,
submitted to Parliament a scheme for effecting a large and
substantial reduction of the national debt. Although he
would not pretend to guess, and it would be rash in any
man to say whether this proposal presented an acceptable
bargain or not to the stockholder, he could not pass from
it without observing that it would undoubtedly effect 'a
national saving of which it was almost impossible to speak
in terms of exaggeration, for should this first alternative
be accepted by not only the holders of the ten millions of
South Sea and other stock, but by the holders of the 500
millions of Three per Cent. Stock, a saving to the country
of nearly ninety millions sterling in the capital amount of
the national debt would be effected without the increase,
on the contrary, with a diminution of the annual expendi-
ture of the country. If the holders of the whole 510 mil-
lions of stock would be content, and at once come forward
and accept this first alternative, which he believed to be a
fair and just and reasonable bargain, he conceived no mem-
suure.which any finance minister in any country ever effected
great
would approach atproach in magnitude and importance, and in the
an extensive benefit to the country, which would
f
result from such an operation. And why ? Because they
sand pounds have a reduction in. the national expenditure
somewherehen about seven or eight, or nine hundred thou-
the capital oix)?teioeannum, and an immediate reduction in
that the guarantee of
ftional debt, as he had already said, of
sterling. (Hear.) It might be true
21. 17s. 9d. was for too long a period.
or ,a
per cent. on he oflven that in five or ten years a reduction of a
interest of capital might make a
difference of millions on t great sums. But, however
that might be, he rejoiced roethink, on the high authority
of the right hon. gentleman, th t this bargain was likely
Heti:V:lBl
to be accepted to a largelatioio.iii,
taldtpeda:sbfergoamn
which he felt it his duty to
that to No. 2 and No. 3,
make some observations.
by adding 10 per cent. to the amounnsthoef
of the national debt as was brought Nvitapltt,al of so much
a sum which, applied to 10 millions of South Sea ktnonc-k
and 30 millions of Three per Cents., to which the bill was

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY,
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Edinburgh High-street and Railway Station, &c.
Bill, was read a third time.
MAIDSTONE ELECTION.
Mr. HUTT appeared at the bar and reported that the
committee on this petition had determined that George
Dod, Esq., was not duly elected for Maidstone, and
that the last election for the borough, so far as concerned
the said Geo. Dod, Esq., was a void election. The com-
mittee also found that he waS by his agents guilty of
treating, but it was not proved to have been committed
with his knowledge or.consent.

KNARESBORO' ELECTION.
The members of the committee on this petition were
called to the table and sworn.

POST-OFFICE.
Lord SEYMOUR moved for returns of salaries,
wages, and allowances of the Post-office department
generally, divided into branche; and classes, and showing
the number of persons employed, and the amount paid
under each class, in the year ending the sth of January,
1835, and in every subsequent year to the sth day of
January, 1851 ; England and Wales—Branch 1, Me-
tropolitan ; Branch 2, Provincial ;—Branch 3, Colonial
and parts abroad. And similar returns for Scotland and
Ireland.
Agreed to.

now limited, would give at once an addition to the capital ' hence the Government woad' proba'bly obtain better
of the national debt of no less than four millions sterling. terms), because he was of opinion that a great national
If he stood alone upon that objection, he said it was unans- benefit would be effected, and the amount of the national
werable and insuperable. (Hear, hear.) A war, or any dabt pro tante would be reduced. (Hear, hear.) With re-
other great national exigency, might compel the country gard to the Exchequer bonds he felt, in common with the
to submit to the increase of the national debt, and justify right honourable gentleman, the great benefit they would,
them in agreeing to that increase, but he ventured to deny confer on the commercial community.; but he would sug-
that the smallest increase ought to be made unless in a case gest for the right honourable gentleman's consideration
of imperative necessity, in which the honour of the coml. whether by issuing so large an amount he would not drive
try was concerned ; and he should show, from the state- the whole of his Exchequer bills out of the market. He
ments and admissions of the right hon. gentleman himself, objected to the bill in so far as, if passed into law, it would
that this-not to use the word wanton-was a perfectly enable the stockholders to exchange their stock against
useless and unnecessary sacrifice of three or four millions, alternative No. 2, and he called upon the Government to
or whatever sum would ultimately be added to the capital do justice to the public by refusing to complete such a dis-
of the debt. (Hear, hear.) The argument put forward advantageous and extravagant bargain, and by trying first
with all the eloquence of the right hon. gentleman and of what might be done to 'induce the holders of stock to ac-
the Secretary to the Treasury, was, that this sacrifice of cept the transferable bonds. By that means they would
three, or four, or 50 millions; if applied to the whole debt, avoid the necessity of increasing the capital of the national
was well made to secure the inestimable advantage of a debt, would have time to acquire a larger amount of expe-
two-and-a-half per cent. stock. Unless the right hon. gen- rience than they at present possessed, and would lay the
tleman himself was greatly in error, he might obtain that foundation of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, an object
advantage without the sacrifice, without the guarantee of which they deemed of such great national importance.
21. 15s. per cent„ on cheaper and better terms, and left the He concluded by moving that the clause embodying alter-
debt at its present amount. It was also said that the addi- native No. 2be expunged from the bill.
tion of 10 per cent. to the national debt was really not an Mr. SPOONER objected to tying up the hands of the
evil ' • and on a former evening he was severely taken to Chanceller of the Exchequer for forty years by entering
task for having treated, or rather having been thought to into a guarantee for that period. At the present moment
have treated, the nominal amount of the national debt as the holder of 1001. stock received 31. of interest, but it
so much money in the possession of the stockholder. He was proposed to offer him 821. 10s. at the end of forty
would not for a moment assert that the possessor of 1101. years, and for this guarantee the nation would not save
stock was the possessor of 1101. sterling. They all knew more than 2s. 3d. per cent. The operation might be per-
that 1101. stock was worth just as much and no more as it formed in a short time, with more benefit to the country,
would produce by sale in the market, and undoubtedly the and he would therefore propose that the guarantee should
holder of that stock was not possessed of 1101. It was be limited to the term of twenty years.
argued that it was immaterial to add 10 per cent. to the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if be
capital, because it was a mere nominal sum, and the could believe with his honourable friend that the proposed
debtor could not call on the State to pay it off. Of course
the same argument would go to make it immaterial whether guarantee was too favourable to the public creditor, he
would at once accede to his motion ; but this was a ques-
the debt was 500/. or 8001., or a thousand millions. But
he said in the present times, with the present prospects of tion of calm, careful, deliberate opinion, and after endea-
the country as to the value of money, and as to the rate of vouring to form the best judgment he could upon it, he
interest, to add to any stock in existence or to be created was convinced that the guarantee proposed in the bill was
10 per cent., while the interest was to be 2i per cent., was
to do great injustice to the State and to the people which that which the house should adopt. The honourable and
old
members of that house represented. Who could say how learned gentleman opposite appeared to think that no
soon the time might not arrive when it would be to the harm would be done by omitting ono of the alternatives
contra
opinion. ( o f
Ha the
r ,
Hear
interest of the State to pay off even 2i per cent. stock ? offeredc
This bill dealt with a period of forty years. He must re-
Exchequer) to
mind the house that forty years ago the Three per Cent.y ry
Stock was at 60. Since 1813 the price of Three per cent. hear.) His view was, that the dignity of Parliament
t)he washers of an of
en stoticrekl. He
on t (the Chancellor
Stock had increased from 60 to 100, and the rate of interest would be lowered by such a proceeding, and that the
had been diminished from 5 to 3 per cent. In the forty wisdom of Parliament and of the Government would be
years now completed the interest of money in the funds exhibited in a 1-Microns light, if they came out with offers
had fallen 2 per cent. Looking then to the increasing corn- altogether unequal to the just expectations of the stock-
merce and prosperity of the country, to the vast amount holders. (Hear, hear.) An honourable gentleman near
of capital at their disposal, at the great influx of capital him had given notice of a motion to limit the amount of
from foreign states, where the same confidence as to poli- stock convertible into the proposed Three-and-a-Half per
tical affairs did not exist, was it extravagant or reasonable Cents. He could understand the meaning and object of
to suppose, trusted as this country was to an indefinite that motion, because if their knowledge was limited it was
amount by the whole civilised world, that in the next forty right they should limit the range of their experiment.
years the interest on the money in the funds would fall All along he had found great difficulty when dealing with
from 3to 2'per cent. (Hear, hear) ? Whenever that fall this subject, in consequence of the ignorance whic pre-
took place, and the time came to pay off the debt, vailed. The opinions of h
the honourable member Would find that it was not were all well enough; but those opinions would not help
altogether immaterial whether the debt was 100 or 110 him when he went to the stock market and endeavoured
millions, since on every hundred pounds they would have to transact business there. (Hear.) It was, no doubt,
to pay 101. more than if this operation had never been very satisfactory to know the opinion of any honourable
sanctioned by Parliament.. But it was not in the in- member of that house with reference to a subject of such
crease of the national debt, it was.not on the improvidence vast importance- as the present ; but that opinion was as
of the bargain by which the right hon. gentleman bound light as a feather in the stock market, and would not, he
the countryffor the long period of 40 years, but by the com- was afraid, assist him much in his financial operations. ,
parison which he should institute between No, 2 and No. (A laugh.) But it was important to bear is mind what
3 that he rested his great objection to the provisions of this his proposal really was. They were now about to pay to
bill. It was said these were equivalents. Let them take the holders of 500;000,0001. of Three per. Cent. Stock, either
the case, and suppose a gentleman being a holder of Three perpetual annuities of 31. per cent. per annum, or 1001. in
per Cent. Stock. to convert 1001. into No. 2, and another hard cash, and that 1001. not taken piecemeal, but at once,
1001. into No. 3, what did he get by No. 3? He paid 1001. after the expiry of twelve months' notice. They were
or 1001. Three per Cent . Stock, which was now the same under such conditions at present that, unless they could
thing ;he received a guarantee, for from one to ten years, amend them, it was perfectly hopeless and impossible to
of 21. 15s. per year. And here, in passing, he would ob- attempt an operation upon the capital of the debt. There
serve, it seemed a sort of uncertain and shifting guarantee, was no man in his senses who would say, either in the pre-
and that they were invited to sanction a bargain being en- sent, or in a more favourable, or, indeed, in any conceiva-
tered into on the part of the State without knowing what ble state, that at the end of twelve month's notice they
the terms were, leaving it to the option of the Government would be prepared to pay up the whole of 500,000,0001. of
to give a guarantee for one year or for ten years. He beg- debt. It was therefore he came to the house and said,
ged to ask if the right hon. gentleman possessed the evi- " Let us feel our way gradually-let us proceed upon the
dence and the basis for the calculation ; and if he did not principal of varying the terms and conditions on which the
possess them, he was at a loss toknow how the calculations public debt is held-let `us endeavour to improve them
could be made at all-how it was he was unable to tell the likewise, both as to the rate of interest immediately avail-
committee whether the guarantee was to be for one, for able and the plan of subsequent redemption." By adopt-
five or for ten years? lie (Sir F. Kelly), and better cal- ing that course; they would not subject themselves to the
cul;tors than himself, might be inclined to think the corn- necessity of paying an enormous sum upon twelve months'
mutation exceedingly beneficial if the guarantee was for notice, but would secure the terms, which, while perfectly
one or two years, but very disadvantageous indeed if it ex- fair to the holders of stock, would relieve the public in
tended to so large a period as ten years. (Hear, hear.) part from a heavy annual burden. That was a great ob-
Turning again to the comparision. What would the gen- sect of policy. The terms they offered must be liberal,
tleman receive upon his 1001. in No. 3, even with the ut- and he believed it would be far better to' offer too much
most'extent of guarantee which the Government was au- than too little. -- (Hear, hear.) If they offered too much,
thorisect to give ? He would receive for his 1001., 21. 15s. a their experiment was but limited, and when they came to
year far ten years, and 21. 10s. a year, and no more, for the repeat or extend it they could contract their terms, and
remaining thirty years.; and now and until he was paid take advantage of the experience they had acquired. On
off, he was going to say for ever, his capital would be 100/., the other hand, if they wont into the market and offered
and 1001, only. But what would he receive for his 1001. in too little, he had no hesitation in saying that there would
No. 2? He would bring forward 1001. only, as in the other be a reaction highly unfavourable to the scheme. (Hear,
case, but he would receive from the Government a guaran- hear.) What was the purpose of the alternative before the
tee of 21. 15s. per cent. of capital of 1101. Substantially house ? ' It was this--that they should say to the holder of
speaking, he would receive only 21. 10s. for forty years on 1001. of stock, "If you will submit to an annual loss of
No. 3as contrasted with 21. 15s. for forty years on No. 2. 2s. 3d. upon your dividend, and likewise to the acceptance
In one he would have a capital of 1001., in the other he of 821. 10s. of capital stock in Three-and-a-Half per Cents.,
would have a capital of 1101. All he could say was,, that instead of your 1001., we will give- you a guarantee for a
if these propositions were identical, if these two bargains period of forty years." What did the public gain ? It
were precisely equivalent and the same, he should hence- gained an immediate remission of about ith per cent, upon
forth have no faith in arithmetic, or in the organs of his the interest, and the chance of the redemption of the capi-
own understanding. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the right tal after forty years, at a reduction of 171. 10s. per cent.
hon. gentleman would meet these objections with that fair- He was far from saying that the public gained a certainty
ness, openness, and candour, which belonged to his charac- of redemption at the end of forty years for 821, los. He
ter, and explicitly inform the house upon what principle he thought, judging from experience, that in no long time
could call these two contracts equivalent, one giving 1001. after ,the period mentioned an opportunity for redemption
capital and 21. 10s. interest for forty years, and the other would occur, but he would not say it would occur exactly
giving 1101. capital and 21. 15s. interest forty years. at the end of forty years. At all events, however, the
(Hear, hear.) They were told that these transferable public gained ith per cent. upon the interest. and after
bonds would be so valuable to the mercantile community 40 years the power of redemption, whenever the financial
that they would make up to the holders of them the entire state of the cenntry would enable them to exercise it.
difference between the advantage of one bargain and the (Hear, hear.) He thought that these were very consider-
disadvantage of the other. Was that so ? Would theft able advantages indeed, and for his own part he would not
bonds, on which the State would pay 21, 10s. for forty consider it an improvident transaction if the House of
years, and acknowledge 1001. of debt, be so much more Commons were disposed to act upon the whole public debt
valuable
that the public would accept them as willingly as upon such terms at the present moment, and undoubtedly
registered stock of 1101, and carrying 21. 15s. interest for he should regard the Minister as fortunate who should be
the same period of time ? If that was so, perhaps the right the instrument of effecting such an operation. (Hear.) At
hon. gentleman would tell the committee and the country the 'same time he did not object to limit the operation for
why he did not stop with No. 3, why he restricted the the present, because it would still be in his power to come
amount, why he did not raise the whole debt on such back to Parliament and ask leave to extend it. He hoped
terms, instead of adding 50 millions to it, as he would by he had now laid the question clearly before the committee,
No. 2 ? He was at a loss to conceive any answer to that and he confidently submitted that no case had been made
question. In no instance could injustice be done to the out for diminishing the guarantee proposed in the bill. If
stockholder, because nothing was compulsory-he might the stock so guaranteed should be taken up by a portion of
or might not accept the third alternative. He therefore the present holders of stock, that would not be considered
would ask the right hon. gentleman to explain to the cora- as pledging the house to offer the same guarantee to the
mittee how, consistent with his duty to the country whose rest of the stockholders. The house in that case would as
pecuniary interests were entrusted to him, he could pro- a matter of course imprdve the terms offered-improve
pose or consent to give to any stockholder 21. 15s. for forty them, he meant, as regarded the interests of the public-
years and acknowledge 1101. debt, when on his own state- but in the meantime, in order that the scheme might be
ment he could easily obtain the same capital at 21. 10s. for favourably received and established, it was necessary that
forty years and acknowledge only-1001. debt. If these two a good guarantee should be given. (Hear.)
bargains were applied to the whole body of Three per Cent, Mr. SPOONER wished to know if the present discus-
stockholders in the kingdom by number three, the State -lion was limited to the South Sea and other minor stocks,
would acknowledge a debt of 500 millions, which whenever or if it applied to the whole of the Three per Cent. Stock ?
there was a fall in the rate of public interest, could be paid The CHANCELOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that
off with that amount of sterling money, and the interest in the clause before the house had reference solely to the
the forty years would be 13,750,0001. whereas by No. 2 the minor stocks. .
State would acknowledge a debt of 550,000,0001. and Mr. SPOONER said that in these circumstances he
the interest in the forty years would be 15,000,0001. So would withdraw his motion, for, while he strongly oh-
that in the one case they would add to the debt 50,000,0001. jected to tying up the hands of the finance minister for so
whilst in the other they would not add to it at all, and long a period as forty years, still he did not think the
save in interest in forty years 1,250,0001. He believed, minor stocks of sufficient importance to justify his inter-
therefore, he had not used too strong a phrase when he vention at that stage of the discussion.
said it was a perfect delusion to hold out these two pro- Sir F. KELLY agreed with the last speaker that'it was
posals as equivalent and identical. (Hear, hear.) To his unnecessary to offer any objection to that part of the bill
utter astonishment, he had almost said consternation, the which related to the South Sea and minor stocks ; but he
right honourable gentleman told the house the other night thought it right to state, for the information of the Chan-
that these bonds would be so, much more valuable than the cellor of the Exchequer, that he should raise the very same
registered stock as to countervail the difference of bargain. question when they came to consider the guarantee for 40
Did the right honourable gentleman remember what he years to 30,000001. of stock. He coincided in the opinion
was saying, or the import of his words ? Did he mean tho expressed by the right hon. gentleman opposite, that it
house to assume that the preference for transferable bonds would be better to offer too much than too little, still he
over registered stock was worth i per cent. on the interest thought the terms proposed were too liberal, and when the
and 10 per cent. on the capital ? Did the hon. member proper time arrived he would submit a motion to the house
reflect on the value of i per cent. per annum when applied upon the subject.
on the whole capital debt? Again, he would ask why, if The. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said they
-one stock was so much preferred, did the right honourable were now dealing with the clause which related exclusively
gentleman withhold the bonds from the public ? The Go- to the South Sea and other minor stocks ; but it appeared
vernment had to pay
,a large sum annually to the Bank of from the statement of the hon. and learned gentleman op-
England for the management of registered stock, but with posite, that' while he would not object to the 40 years'
these bonds no management would be necessary, and guarantee in regard to those stocks, he intended to raise
therefore it could not be on the ground of expense. What the question when the committee came to' consider the
he said on a former evening he ventured to repeat now, more important portions of the scheme. He only desired
that there was no real, substantial difference in the value to point out to the hon. and learned gentleman that it
of transferable bonds and registered stock. It was true in would be better to discuss the point in connexion with the
this country he was speaking without experience. Finan- question he had himself raised with respect to the Two-
cial ministers of this country had never yet thought fit to and-a-Half per Cent. Stock. The course hitherto pursued
issue transferable bonds of the nature of these Exchequer had been in strict accordance with established and consti•
bonds, and it would be a problem difficult to solve and a tutional usage. Although the resolutions of the house had
question not very easy to answer, why they had not issued no effect in point of law, yet, with regard to the commu-
such bonds, but for one consideration.- Perhaps the right tation and redemption of stock, the course of proceeding
hon. gentleman would find in this scheme that his Ex- had always been that the resolutions of the house were
chequer bills would disappear from the market, and appear acted upon by the parties whose duty it would be, under
before him in a form not very pleasant to his eyes. He the act of Parliament, to give the requisite notice of the
might find that instead of having 170,00,000/. 0r18,000,0001, redemption. Accordingly, acting strictly upon that prin-
of unfunded debt, at lb per cent. interest, it would be see- ciple, Mr. Speaker had communicated to the holders of
perseded by ExChequer bonds at 2i per cent, for a 'certain stock the resolutions at which the house had arrived. Now
number of years, and 2i per cent. afterwards. That might the resolutions ran in these terms-that the holders of
be the reason why bonds had not been issued in this. minor stock should give notice within a given period of
country. But he was at a loss to imagine bow the Secre their intention to claim such and such stock in lieu of
Lary to the Treasury could state that these bonds would be what they now hold. Their right therefore to give such
worth 101. per cent. more than registered stock, and that notice had certainly been in existence for a considerable
the two descriptions would ran parallel with each other in number of days, and although he was not in a condition to
the market. True, they had no practical experience, but say whether any such persons had given such notice, or
they could move by the light of experience derived from whether they had even formed an intention to do so, yet
other channels. In France and in Holland and in other he felt himself some doubts and scruples about any inter-
commercial countries of Europe, bonds to the amount •of ference at all with the terms upon which the house had
millions and millions transferable exactly as these Ex- declared its intention to deal with those minor stocks.
chequer bonds, were issued by the Government and were Mr. F. KELLY declared himself much astonished at
in circulation in those countries or elsewhere. If the Go- what had just fallen from the right hon. gentleman. He
vernment wished to know whether Exchequer bonds would never understood that in adopting the resolutions brought
be higher in the market than registered stock, the question forward by the right hon. gentleman-a step which the
could be answered by reference to where Exchequer bonds right hon. gentleman himself represented as necessary to
or similar securities existed. If any one wanted to invest enable him to introduce a bill-the house pledged itself to
10,0001. in Paris, or Amsterdam, or Hamburg, the broker support the whole of the alternatives offered to stock-
would ask whether he desired certificates to bearer, or .to holders. None of the alternatives, he contended, had yet
be registered as the stockholder, and he would find both received the direct sanction of the house, nor had the
descriptions at the same price, convertible one into the house agreed to the issue of any such notice as that which
other, If he wanted to buy French Routes or Dutch the right hon. gentleman stated had been sent to the holders
bonds at a distance, no doubt they would be i or i per of minor stock.
cent. higher for the convenience of transfer ; but no sub- Mr. HUME took precisely the same view as the hon.
stantial difference existed, and it was a perfect fallacy to and learned gentleman, and he considered it a dangerous
suppose that these Exchequer bonds would be worth more precedent that any notice binding the house to the alter-
than the merest, inappreciable trifle, in comparison with natives embodied in the bill should have been given to the
registered stock, provided they were both issued upon the holders of stock. With respect to the general question, he
same conditions. Then how stood this question betv eon strongly objected to increasing the capital of -the national
No. 2 and No. 3? The Government brought forward this debt, thcsigh the plan now proposed might be safely tried,
scheme, and alleged to the public that they might accept he thought, as an experiment. He had no objection to a
1001. stock in No. 3, or 1101. stock in No. 2, and that they reasonable amount of security being given, and unques-
were equivalent; and they told the house, and he presumed tionably there was much truth in the remark of the Chan-
the right honourable gentleman would tell the committee, cellor of the Exchequer that, in order to secure the esta-
that they considered these two stocks precisely identical blishment of the stock, it was necessary to offer superior
and of the same value, and that 30 millions of No. 3 would terms,
be as likely to be taken as 30 millions of No. 2. If that The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
were so, he could only say that the stockholders of this both the hon. and learned gentleman and the hon. member
country were in the singular position of knowing no dif- for Montrose had entirely misapprehended him. He never
Terence between 1001. and 110/., and between V. 10s. and intended to convey the idea that the house had pledged
21. 15s. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Then what would be itself to pass the three alternatives embraeed in the bill.
the result? The consequence would be, not as the right What he did say was that legal notice had been given by
honourable gentleman facetiously observed, that limbs an officer of that house to the holders of the minor stocks,
would be broken in the rush for No. 3, but not until No. 2 J that certain resolutions had been adopted by the commit-
was exhausted would No. 3 be accepted, and then only tee and reported to the house, so that the parties inques
in case the demand ' for transferable bonds should be ; tion might have time to form their judgments on the
sub-
large enough to induce the • fundhOlder to submit to tject. That did nyst bind the house to anything.
what would he a great sacrifice as compared with I Mr. SPO ONVti, withdrew his amendment. .
o
the advantages obtained under No. 2. Even sup- The CHANCULLOR of the EXCHEQUER-I regret t
posing both stocks were wholly taken up, that find, after the-very kind manner in which the honourable
would not lessen the gross injustice inflicted on the ' and learned gentleman has referred to me, and after the
his
'
holders of No. 3. He was quite aware of the great im- ' favourable tt arms in which he has spoken of the bill, that
portance of the object in view-the creation of a Two-and- I objections to the scheme are of such a broad and sweeping
a-Half per Cent. Stock-but he also felt that it was of far character. I" was at a loss for some time to understand to
greater importance that, unless upon some great national what part of the plan his objections applied. At one time
necessity, the capital of the debt-should not be increased, -it aearod a aif his objections were limited to the question
_ 0
He therefore urged upon the Government to at once dis- 'of the Two-a ad-a-Half per Cent. Stock ; while at others h
card from this clause the proposal or alternative. If they described the • whole scheme as being impracticable, inoo_n-
could procure the stockholders to accept a large and sub- venient, and wnjust, lam bound to say that I think the
stantial amount of stock under No. 1, he would ' objectionsand :learnedgentleman do really go
not stop of the hon.
money t ()Too c,f the bi . , .. or too 10n.._
c..a 4tinie (though he believed
, three or five, yearrs tatect by Cr .eatrl OrOmatercitil and politico-economical views,