The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-31 00:00:00

CUSTOMS ACTS.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that
the house go into committee on these acts.
The house being accordingly in committee,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed
the resolutions of the 13th of May, as to tIM new 'tariff of
duties on minor articles, the enumeration of which created
some merriment.

At the word " cables,"
Mr. MITCHELL rose to offer some remarks, though he
did not oppose the redaction.

Mr. DrgßAELlsaia;;;;;;al gentlemen wished to make
remarks upon particular reductions.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, con-
sidering the lateness of the hour (nearly twelve), he should
postpone all those articles.
Lord J. MANNERS said there was a class of articles,
producing an appreciable amount of revenue, for the reduc-
tion of the duties upon which no reason had been assigned,
and to which, therefore, he objected.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed
to postpone such items.

Lord J. MANNERS objected upon this ground to the
item, "copper ore."

Sir F. BARING objected upon principle to the reduc-
tion of duties like these, Duties ought only to be reduced
which benefitted the consumer, relieved the producer, or
promoted the manufacture and the trade, (Hear.) The
duties before the house were not of this nature. (Hoar.)
He had objected upon those principles to the reduction
made on similar articles in 1846, when 300,0001. of revenue
had been thrown away without any reduction in the cost
of collection or diminution in the interference of the Cus-
toms officers, and without any benefit to the consumer.
He knew that these opinions were not popular, but he
could not refrain from making his protest against a system
the tendency of which was to throw the whole burden of
the Customs duties on 12 or 14 articles, the consequence of
which would be, that the people would naturally say,
" Why should we pay a duty upon our tea and sugar and
tobacco, while you relieve your anchovies and similar
luxuries?" (Hear.) If there were any principle more
char than another in Customs duties it was this, that it
was well to throw the net over as much as possible, and let
it not press too heavily en the poor, but snake all classes
contribute to the exigencies of the State. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the hon. gentleman who bad just sat down had designated
the duty upon agate and cornelian as miserable in amount,
yet, notwithstanding that such was his opinion, he seemed
anxious to retain those duties. He (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) held that, to take the duty off of great articles
tended very sensibly to increase trade, and he believed
that the reduction of the duty upon articles of smaller im-
portance would have the effect of contributing to a propor-
tionate increase.

Sir F. BARING said, when he had used the word
" miserable," he meant to convey his opinion with respect
to the amount of relief which the proposed reduction upon
the articles in question would be likely to afford.
Mr. DISRAELI said he did not expect that they would
have been called upon at that late hour to enter into a dis-
cussion of the principle upon which our Customs duties
were based ; but as the question had been started, he did
not wish to permit it to pass over in silence. It should be
remembered that, in putting an end to certain Custom du-
ties, the cost of general collection did not become materially
if at all, reduced. In the case of those articles which were
allowed to come in free of duty, examination should take
place, and all the cost of maintenance of offices should be
incurred. The principle, therefore, which it was so desi-
rable in the case of excise duties to adopt—namely, to ter-
minate them altogether, did not at all apply with' the same
force to the duties derivable from the Customs. He was
of opinion that they ought not to oppose the raising a tie-
Berate duty upon a variety of articles, but that they wwe
bound to resist the imposition of eitrzsmive duties under
any circumstances. it should be borne in mind that a vary
moderate Custom duty of ls. a quarter upon corn, which
had been proposed by a very eminent person merely as a
nominal duty, was now a source of a very considerable
amount of revenue to the country. The Exchequer, he
believed* derived no less a sum than half a million a year
from that nominal burden, as it had been -designated.
That was a fact which they ought not to lose tight of. He
thought it would be an exceedingly unwise course to aim
at the annihilation of every duty, and he was of opinion
that their leading principle ought to be the imposition, in
general, of duties moderate in amount. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. MANNERS said he found, from a parliamen-
tary paper which had been published last year, that the
cost of collection bad, in the Excise, been over 800,0001.,
while in 1851 it had been reduced to 673,8261. ; and during
that period the total repeal, in the shape of Excise duties,
had been over 1,619,0001. In the case of the Custom-house
revenue, the collection had been 1,254,5901., and that
amount had increased in 1851 to 1,290,756/. ; so that there
had been an increase in the cost of collection of about
36,0001. He thought, therefore, if there were no other
reason, that the mere consideration of the remarkable
figures which he had placed before them ought to be suffi-
cient to induce the right hon. gentleman opposite to
consent to a postponement of the subject.
Mr. CARDWELL said that the noble lord had informed
them that there had been an increase of 36,0001. upon the
amount of the cost of collection of the Customs duties in
1851, over the amount of the cost in 1842. Bat the noble
lord should remember that that increase had been upon a
total expenditure of no less than 1,200,0001. The remis-
sions which the Government proposed to make in the
Customs duties, though small in amount, were such as it
was highly desirable to have removed. He felt some sur-
prise that the hon. member for Huntingdon (Sir T.
Baring) should be an advocate for keeping the decision
of a matter whose speedy settlement was so essential to
the interests of trade in suspense. He recollected that
when the hon. member for Montrose had called upon
them to reduce or abolish the duty upon Custom House
articles the right hon. gentleman opposite had supported
his motion.

Lord. J. MANNERS observed that the remarks which
he had made a few minutes before had been made to show
that while the cost of collecting the Customs duties had
increased, that of collecting the Excise duties had con-
siderably diminished ; and he should feel himself bound to
take a division upon the 11th article, which the Chancellor
of the Exchequer proposed to exempt from the payment of
duty.
After a few observations from Sir F. BARING,
Mr. DISRAELI said that the right hon. gentleman op-
posite had charged him with inconsistency in consequence
of his having voted upon a previous occasion for the motion
of the hon. member for Montrose. He had voted for that
motion because it tended to terminate the protection upon
various articles which entered into the consumption of the
cultivation of the soil. (Hear.)
After some remarks from Colonel DUNNE

The CHAIRMAN went through the list of the various
articles which the Government propose to exempt from the
payment of Customs duties, and the consideration of those
articles to whose exemption from duty any objection was
raised were ordered to be postponed.

When the CHAIRMAN came to the item of tea,
Mr. DISRAELI asked whether the right hon. gentleman
was prepared to give the committee any information with
respect to the state of China ? If not, he though. it would
be better to postpone this important item. (Hear, hear.)

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had not
anticipated any opposition, and this was one of the items,
the postponement of which would be productive of the
most inconvenience. At any subsequent stage he should
be happy to afford any information which might be re-
quired.

Mr. DISRAELI had always found that " subsequent
statements" made very little impression upon public opinion.
(Hear, hear.) The tea duties had hitherto been only inci-
dentally referred to by the right hon. gentleman, and he
should certainly like to have some estimate of the supposed
increased consumption, to be derived from the remission,
and some information with regard to China.
Mr. R. PALMER referred to the hardship of depriving
the retail tea-dealer of the I.lb. draft on tea.
Mr. MOFFATT said it had been his intention to move
an alteration in a certain part of the resolution affecting
the tea duties, but he had since been induced to waive his
objection. The arrangement as to the withdrawal of the
I.lb. draft had, with, he believed, the general concurrence
of the trade, been left in the hands of the Chancellor of th
Exchequer.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was
proposed that all the tea which shall have been reported
(that was the technical term) to the Custom-house before
the sth July should have the benefit of the draft, but that
from that time it should cease.
Mr. DISRAELI again reminded the committee that
they were called upon to consider a very important item
—(hear)--which would affect the revenue to the extent of
3,000,0001. He thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer
bound not only to pronounce his mature opinion as to the
probable increase in the consumption, but also to state his
opinion as to whether the state of China, whence we
received news by every packet, would affect the increased
supply of the article. It was not doing justice to their
constituents to permit such an important item to pass in
silence. (Hear.) When the proposition was made by the
late Government to deal with the tea duty—the first pro-
position of the kind ever made in the House of Commons—
they also proposed to reduce the duty on an article of
British growth Which came into competition with tea.
(Hear.) Without more particularly referring to malt,
however, it was known to every gentleman in the com-
mittee that the consumption of malt had been diminishing
in this country. Hon. gentlemen opposite had always con-
tended that tea had become the substitute for the home
article. Now, the Government were proposing to make a
great reduction on the article of tea, but none on the article
of home growth. (Hear.) But, at that hour (one o'clock),

he trusted the right hon. gentleman would not proceed
further, but appoint an early and more cengenient oppor-
tunity for discussing-the question. (Heari. hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not
aware that there was any doubt in the minds of the com-
mittee as to whether they should proceed with the tea
duty. The evening had been consumed in a discussion on
the income tax, and he had now to choose between making
a speech or endeavouring to pass an important item, the
suspension of which would cause great inconvenience to
the trade. He believed that in his first financial speech
ho had stated the substance of the views of the Govern-
ment on everything with which they proposed to deal in
the budget. He had stated on the former occasion, what
he repeated now, namely, that the state of China was such,
as to inspire some apprehension and discomfort with re-
gard to the future supply of tea ; but that the information
was not of such a kind as to lead the Government to with-
hold this great and beneficial change. The right hon.
gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) had himself, to:his honour, almost
placed this question beyond the possibility of retreat; and
after the measures taken by the merchants of this country,
consequent upon the late budget in this respect, little dis-
cretion was left to the present Government in the matter.
Mr. MASTERMAN, as one much mixed up with the
commercial world, and knowing how much was at stake,
trusted that the time of the committee might not be con-
sumed unnecessarily, but that hon. gentlemen would con-
fine themselves to short speeches.
Mr. DISRAELI observed that if the hon. member had
been a teetotaller—(a laugh)which he knew him not to
be—(laughter)—he could not have made a better speech in
favour of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Hear.) If
it was to be laid down that the proposal of the minister to
make reductions in the tariff was to be received in silence,
why was it brought before Parliament at all ? (Hear.) Why
not settle the affair at the Board of Trade, or by order in
council ? (Hear.) If, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer
stated, he had given the requisite information in his ffrst
speech, he must have proceeded upon very slender infor-
mation, for he had not given an estimate of the increased
consumption. Since that speech there had been three arri-
vals from China, and the important news had not arrived
when he delivered it. He therefore made the reasonable
request that this resolution should be now postponed, to
be brought on again on some early day—the first on which
they should again meet, if the right hon. gentleman pleased.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that all were agreed as to
the propriety of making a remission in the tea duties. Ho
was of opinion that the material interests concerned were
of far greater importance than any speeches which could
be made on this subject. Of course, it was matter of con-
jecture and speculation what would be the amount of the
increase, and how the state of China would affect the sup-
ply. The noble lord said it was a mistake to suppose that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not touched on this
subject, and he quoted a passage from Mr. Gladstone's
speech containing an estimate of the anticipated con-
sumption. The insurrection did, not appear to have inter-
femt with the pursuits of industry, and they had not now
the reasons which had some time ago led them to appre-
hend that the success of the insurrection would materially
interfere with the commerce of the country. (Hear.) Of
course no minister would :be bold enough to say what
course the insurrection in China might take. The ques-
tion was, did the right hon. gentleman mean to oppose the
resolutions ? If he did, the Government would postpone
them, but if he did not, he hoped the committee would
agree to them.
Mr. DISRAELI thought the noble lord had treated his
observations in a very disingenuous spirit. (Hear, hear.)
He did not think ho was bound to state whether he would
oppose the particular motion before the house. (Hear,
hear, and a laugh.) He heard the unseemly interruption
from' the hon. member opposite, and for which the hon.
member was supereminent. (A laugh.) The noble lord
had stated that he could not tell what was taking place in
China. It was difficult to know what was taking place in
Constantinople. (Cheers.) But of course the Government
had taken steps to obtain the best information on the sub-
ject of the tea duties. The late Government, before they
dealt with this important subject, endeavoured to obtain
from the best sources the best information they could.
The noble lord said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had given the house all the information necessary. But
the right hon. gentleman had never offered to the house
any estimate of the increased consumption. How many
millions of pounds did the right hon. gentleman expect
the increase to be ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the answer was involved in a plain arithmetical calcula.
tion.

Mr. DISRAELI—That might be the case • but it was
clear the right hon. gentleman had not stated calcula-
tion to the house. It ought to be put to the house in a fair
and business-like manner. Both the noble lord and the
right hon. gentleman had admitted that but for the late
hour and the pressure of business it would be convenient
to make such a statement. (Hear.) That was a vindication
of the course which he was taking. (Hear.) The noble
lord had asked him whether he meant to oppose the mo-
tion, and said that he had made a similar proposal. That
was not a fair statement. Though he had proposed a
remission of the tea duties that would ultimately be as
extensive as the present, still the noble lord could not
forget that remission was to take place in a greater number
of years. The noble lord must also agree that the circum-
stances of China since then were such as ought not to en-
courage them to make any diminution of the period during
which the remission should take place. If they had pro-
posed that the term should be five or six years, the last
news from China would have justified such a proposal.
That was a fair subject of discussion, and an opportunity
should have been even him of stating the reasons and the
views under which the late Government brought forward
their proposal, so that the country might determine as to
which was the fairest course. (Hear, hear.) This was not
the first time they had been so treated in these discus-
sions. (Hear, hear.) The financial propositions of the right
hon. gentleman had. never been discussed except by accident.
Both the noble lord and the right hon. gentleman deprecated
delay. They said that the public interest would suffer by
it. They were told that the conversion of Three per Cent.
Stock into Two-and-a-Half and Three-and-a-Half per Cent.
Stock was a matter of such passin,, importance, that the Ex-
chequer Bonds were in such high favour, that no discussion
could be allowed. (Laughter.) We were met in the course
we took by a laugh, and at another time by an indignant
groan from an obscure corner opposite. (Hear, hear.) He
did not know if what had passed on those questions justi-
fied the extreme precipitancy of the minister in preventing
discussion. (Hear, hear.) All this delay might have been
avoided if the right hon. gentleman had at first made his
statement, and then allowed him to follow. He had no
wish to offer any obstructions except such as he had a right
to make, If the right hon. gentleman had permitted him
to vindicate the policy he had recommended, he would
only have been acting in a spirit of justice, and would have
taken a course more creditable to the Government.
After a few words from Mr. VANSITTART,
Lord A. VANE moved that the chairman report pro-
gress.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the understanding all along was, that if there was any op-
positien to any part of the tariff being brought on at a late
hour, that so far as that part was concerned, it would be
postponed. Adhering to that arrangement, as the noble
lord objected to going on with the tea duties, though he
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) deprecated delay, he
should not persist.

After some further conversation between Lord A. Vane,
and. Mr. Disraeli, who stated that he did not intend to
oppose the resolution, and Lord J. Russell—
Mr. T. BARING inquired whether the recent increase
in the price of tea would not in the opinion of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer make a material difference in his
estimate of the increased consumption that would result
from the diminution in the duty. He differed with both
sides of the house oil the plan for the reduction of the tea
duties, and thought it would have been better at once to
have made a larger reduction, and left any further reduc-
tion for the future, as it was the importer would derive
great benefits and the consumer little, and the increase of
consumption would. be small.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—No such
change, had taken place in the tea market since his state-
ment materially to alter the basis of his calculations.
The motion was then withdrawn.

Mr. DISRAELI inquired if the statement with regard
to India would be made on Friday ?
Lord J. R,USSETLL—If it was not he would state in suf-
ficient time.

Mr. DISRAELI inquired when the Succession Bill
would be brought on ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it de-
pended on what bad been just said by his noble friend.
On Thursday the Income Tax Bill would be re-committed,
and after that the customs duties would be taken, and
after that the spirit duties.
Lord J. RUSSELL would state at 5 o'clock to-day whe-
ther the statement relative to. India would come on on
Friday.
The house then resumed.