The Sun.
London, England, 1854-03-22 00:00:00

; Majesty's present advisers, the moment they give the coun-
try satisfactory proof that they have any confidence in each
other. (Cheers and laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQI7ER Mr.
Speaker, if there be now present any gentleman who, like
myself, have sat in this house to hear this debate, since
half-past five o'clock, I think they will admit that, at least,
it has served one useful purpose, for it has illustrated
more signally than any discussion that I can remember the
truly English principle of freedom of debate. (A laugh.)
Sir, it being my dutyto notice on the part of the Government
the topics that might come under the view of hon. gentlemen
in the course of the evening, it has occured to me whether
I should not shorten my labour if, instead of trying to
enumerate the topics which have been detailed to-night, I
should take the negative side of the question, and refer to
those comparatively few subjects which have not been
noticed. why, sir, we have had—and these are only a
few of the principal questions—the right hon. gentleman
says that the hour is still inconveniently early, I am
afraid it would not do for me to act upon that assumption,
but I have a certain duty to discharge—we have had dis-
cussed to-night savings banks and the management of the
great fund connected with them, the constitution of the
national debt commission, the balances in the Exchequer,
the interest on the policy with respect to Exchequer-bills,
the relations of the Government and the Bank, the pro-
per rules with regard to deficiency bills, the plan for the
government of the national debt, the Bank Act of
1844, the mode of establishing a currency free from
the influence of foreign exchanges, the comparative marits
of direct and indirect taxation, the foreign policy of
the Government, and the education of the country. (Hear,
hear, and laughter.) And there is yet, sir, one other sub-
ject which has been touched slightly ; here and there, there
has been a faint allusion just perceptible to the amendment
of the hon. baronet. (Cheers and laughter.) The right
hon. gentleman who has just sat down has closed his speech
with an allusion to that amendment, and doffs not seem to
like to challenge a vote of the house upon the financial
propositions of the Government—(Ministerial cheers),—
more than upon any others of their acts. But the. right
hon. gentleman has, in the exercise of his undoubted
right, thought fit to discuss at large the conduct of the
Government ; and here I may refer to the language of the
right hon. gentleman, when he charged me with having
treated him with unseemly and discourteous taunts. Sir,
I do not think that that was a just charge on the part of
the right hon. gentleman. In replying to the right hon.
gentleman on a former night, I did, as I shall to-night
take the liberty of doing, use the legitimate freedom of
debate ; and I do not think that the right hon. gentleman
is the man, of all others, who has been sparing in his
ap-
peal to that freedom and that right, whether in reference
to things er persons. (Loud cheers.) But, sir, if the sight
hon' gentleman had cause to find fault with me for un-
seemly and discourteous taunts, arising out of the heat of
temper, why did not the right hon. gentleman do what
any other man would have done, namely, rise in his place
in this house and complain—if he did not think it right,
sir, to appeal to you—why did he not complain of it on
the spot, why did he retain this grievance and this grudge
in his bosom for a fortnight, to make use of it in one of
his thousand declamatory periods ? (Cheers.) Sir, I tell
the right hon. gentleman that if I have been guilty of
such taunts I deeply regret it—l regret it with reference
to him or to any other man, and I am sorry he did not
give me an earlier opportunity of saying so, when I could
tell whether or not there was any foundation for the
charge. Having said thus much, I pass to graver matters.
(Hear, hear.) Now, sir, the right hon. gentleman
says that he guards himself against being supposed to ap-
prove of the financial propositions of the Government. Sir,
there is not much occasion for the right hon. gentleman to
guard himself on that subject. lam not aware of any fi-
nancial proposition—l might say of any proposition—but
at any rate lam not aware of any financial proposition,
great or small, that h•as been made by the present Govern-
ment, which has had the good fortune to meet the appro-
bation of the right hon. gentleman ' and with, I think,
one exception, I am scarcely aware of any attempt to im-
pose a tax upon the country which the right hon. gentle-
man has not resisted, or of any attempt to remove a tax,
and diminish the resources of the Exchequer, which the
right hon. gentleman has not supported. The right hon.
gentleman sometimes speaks of new policies. Sir, until the
time of the right hon. gentleman, the subject of finance,
during my recollection, has been dealt with in a manner
somewhat distinct from general politics, because it has been
felt that there is a tenderness in the subject of the public
debt, and an importance in maintaining the resourcesof the
Exchequer, and the consequence of that conviction hasbeen
until within the last twelve months, a general union, as a
general rule, in maintaining the ways and means which
are necessary to carry on the public service. The right
hon. gentleman has thought fit to reverse that rule. The
right hon. gentleman will not support the hon. baronet,
who, I know, has made his motion entirely independently,
but he still says that he reserves to himself the liberty of
objecting to the financial propositions of the Government;
and upon what does he found himself ? He founds him-
self upon this most extraordinary reason, that he doe's not
consider there is any necessity proved for r an increase of
taxation, for he says he does not know whether wo are
going to war, or for what we are going to war. Why, sir,
his ignorance for what we are going to war has nothing
whatever to do with the necessity for an increase of taxa-
tion. (Hear, hear.) He knows this—he knows that he has
himself been a party to votes which have raised the
estimated expenditure of the country three millions
above the estimated revenue; and having himself been
a party to these votes, he says that he cannot under-
take to admit that there is any necessity for increased
taxation. Well, sir, the right hon. gentleman is not con-
tented with that more limited field of discussion upon which
he entered in the earlier part of his speech, and in which I
am bound to say he expatiated with a skill and a force that
are rarely equalled in debate. The right hon. gentleman,
under the influence I think of some malignant spirit—l
mean malignant as respects himself—must forsooth enter
upon that most ill-omened discussion of the question of
confidence in her Majesty's Government. The right hon.
gentleman, who was not challenged at all in the matter,
must go into a discussion of why he would not propose a
vote of want of confidence in her Majesty's Government.
He is entitled without doubt to use his own discretion on
that subject. If he thinks it right not to move a vote of
want of confidence in the Government, I really believe he
has good reasons for refrainin„e—(hear)—but whether he
has good reasons or not—whether he chooses to move any
such vote or not, I am perfectly at a loss to conceive what
could have put it into his head to give such reasons as he
has done to-night for abstaining from proposing a vote of
want of confidence. Why, sir, what reason could there be
better than those he assigns, which should make him move
such a vote ? He says he will move a vote of want of con-
fidence in the Government when he sees the slightest proof
that the Government have confidence in themselves—have
confidence in one another. Ought votes of want of confi-
dence then to be spared, ought men to continue in office
because they are so totally unfit to discharge public duties
that even among themselves they do not exhibit a tolerable
amount of agreement and mutual confidence. (Hear, hear.)
The right hon. gentleman says her Majesty's Government
differ upon every vital question—they differ upon the Re-
form Bill—they differ about the Protestant dissenters—
they differ about the Protestant cause—they differ about
their foreign policy—they differ, in short, about every
question of interest. The head of the Government, he
says, has no confidence in the leader of the House of Com-
mons—the leader of the House of Commons has no con-
fidence in the head of the Government—the Chancellor of
the Exchequer has no confidence in any of his colleagues,
and none of his colleagues have any confidence in him,
(Laughter.) And that being the state of the case, and we,
miserable and unworthy men, being here usurping the
functions and aping the character of a Government.
(" Hear, hear," from Colonel Sibthorp, followed by general
laughter.) The right hon. gentleman says, for these rea-
sons, because you are so miserable, because you are so dis-
united, because you are so degraded, I will at this great
crisis of the fortunes of England leave you in place, where
you are to govern the destinies of the country. (Cheers.)
Why, sir, I tell the right hon. gentleman that, if I pos-
sessed his great powers of mind and oratory, I would rather
have been silent altogether on such a subject, than, after
having made such an argument, have conducted it to such
a recreant conclusion. (Loud cheers.) Sir, notwithstand-
ing the hour, I am afraid I must occupy at any rate about
one quarter of the time which the hon. gentleman has
taken up, with some remarks in answer to those which he
has made ; and I go as directly as I can to two points on
which he made charges against my own department. The
right hon. gentleman impugns the policy that I have felt
it my duty to pursue, in lowering at an early period in the
year the interest on Exchequer Bills ; and he says that
there were circumstances that had then occurred that
should have shown me the impropriety of that measure.
How fortunate it is, sir, that hon. gentlemen, so wise
after the fact, did not then take notice of the circum-
stances that had then occurred. (Cheers.) They are now
willing with retrospective finger to point them out. At
the time those circumstances were not so visible, and the
right hon. gentleman knows perfectly well that, although
on this subject, like many other subjects of discussion, he
himself was not indisposed to take objection, he took no
objection himself at that time. (Hear.) Sir, the right
hon. gentleman occupied a long period of time in investi-
gating a matter of no moment whatever. He stated that I
laid claim to a, saving of 20,000/. on the interest on Exchequer
Bills. Why, sir, what I stated was this. I said at the
time that it was an inci dental observation, scarcely touching
the substance of the case. I stated that the actual payment
on Exchequer-bills would be less this year by a certain
sum than the same payment was last year: But I men-
tioned that the number of Exchequer-bills this year was
reduced. And it has been in dressing out such a subject
as this, and in drawing his conclusions from it, that the
right lion. gentleman has thought fit to spend the time of
the house. Now, the payments in the year are no test of
the merits of a policy. Does the right hon. gentleman
mean to say or not that I am responsible for the state of
things that change the money market, and make it desirable
to raise the rate of interest on Exchequer-bills in the au-
tumn ? That really is the question. He says that there
has been a loss, and that I said. on the contrary that the
sum payable on Exchequer-bills would be less this year;
but if the sum paid upon them were double it would have
nothing to do with this point, viz., the imprudence of
lowering the rate of interest in the spring. What are the
circumstances which the right hon. gentleman quoted?
He says, What was the state of the funds, what was the
state of the Bank discounts, and what was the state of the
bullion in the country? The funds had fallen, the rats of
discount had. risen within a fraction from 2 to 3 per cent.,
and the bullion had changed from 22 millions .to 19; and
he argues that, because each of these was a little lower
than before, therefore it was wrong in me to make any
such attempt as I made. Does the right hon. gentleman
mean to lay down the general principle that no financial
operation aiming at a reduction of interest ought ever to
be tried under any circumstances excepting at the very
moment which is the most favourable—not at a favourable
or even at a highly favourable moment, but at a moment
absolutely more favourable than any other moment, either
before or after it. Look at the consequence of the doctrine
of the right hon. gentleman. The Bank may raise and
lower its rate of interest from week to week—it can do
precisely as it pleases; but the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, when he fixes the rate of interest on Exchequer-
bills, must fix it for t elve months at a time.
How are you to insure, when you determine the
rate of interest, on Exchequer-bills, that the apex of
favourable circumstances will be at a given time,
and neither before nor after it. Now, I proceeded, with
regard to Exchequer bills, upon deliberate conclusions,
and I contend that the measure was fully justified. I hope,
if the right hon. gentleman thinks it was not frilly justi-
fied, that, instead of confining himself to discussions and
declamations, which are convenient for occupying time,
but which do not tend to any issue, however he may be
indisposed to move a vote of want of confidence—l hope
he will try at any rate to bring this matter to a fair issue.
Sir. I proceeded upon deliberate conviction, and I am
bound to tell the rig ht hon gentleman, what I have never
said before, but in continuance of this discussion I am
hcoimnisPellif,eavd ht oe n say
he
e held it—thatthe sealshad
of right
the
Chancellor g ent gentleman
m thean
Exchequer, been in any position of permanance as a Minis-
ter, using the word in the qualified sense which attaches
to an ordinary Government in this country—he ought
himself long before to have done that which I did; and he
Would Imo Ws Why of h gondaQuis waste of the pw44o