The Sun.
London, England, 1854-03-25 00:00:00

COMMITTEE ON COMPLAINT OP BREACH OP

PRIVILEGE.

The committee sat again on Wednesday. The members present
were—Mr. Bright, Lord Hotham, Mr. Macartney, Mr. Butt,
Mr. Keogh, Mr. G. E. H. Vernon, Colonel Bentinck, Mr.
Moore, and Mr. Henley (chairman).
The proceedings commenced by the re-examination of
Mr. William Ford, who was questioned about the sum of
money presented by the corporate officers of the city of Dub-
lin to Mr. Reynolds, then M.P. for the place. Witness was
town-clerk at 5001. a-year, and, as his office had been pre-
served to him through Mr. Reynolds's exertions in the House
of Commons, he was asked to subscribe 1001. to the fund. It
was represented to him that the subscriptions that were being
collected were intended to be applied to the payment of Par-
liamentary expenses, and the expenses of Mr. Reynold's elec-
tion petition; but he replied that he had already contributed
towards that object, that he knew well that the 1001. asked
of him was intended as remuneration for Parliamentary
services, and that he would -not contribute for any such
Purpose. •
By Colonel Bentinck—Of his own knowledge he knew no-
thing of any transaction in which any member of Parliament
bad received money for patronage ; he had not come to Lon-
don to repeat to the committee all the idle talk and scandal of
the town of Dublin.
Michael Enright, porter at the Dublin Custom-house, was
then called, and examined about the propasal he made to Mr.
Bindon about paying him 9t. to procure witness's advance-
ment in the Custom-house. He acknowledged that he had
made that proposal, not thinking there was any harm in it.
The situation he wished to procure was a vacant fire-lighter-
ship; and he had heard that it could be had for 91. James Cun-
ningham, of the Stamp-office, Dublin, had told him that he
bad heard from a former occupant of this fire.lightership that
that sum had been given as a " hand-over" for it to Mr. Rey-
nolds, M.P. Witness spoken to Cunningham twice lately on
the subject, but it had passed from his memory, and he now
said he knew nothing about the matter.
The next witness was Mr. Mowbray Morris.
The Chairman—We did not get from you yesterday Mr.
Morris, the office you hold in connexion with the Times. We
should like to place it on our minutes.
Mr. Morris—l am manager of the paper.
The Chairman—Have you refreshed your memory with re-
ference to the article that appeared in the Times in the
month of September, about which you were questioned ?

Mr. Morris—l have.
Mr. Moore—l am to understand, then, that you speak with
all the authority and information of the Times itself with re-
ference to those two articles'?
Mr. Morris—l can give information, but I speak with no
authority whatever.
Mr. Moore—ln the article of the 19th of September there
The Irish members must all be paid,
occurs this passage ;—"
and they will all vote for their pay, . The Irish member
is a very serviceable animal, all the more serviceable for not
being very nice in his habits. (Laughter.) It is not too
much to say, that hardly a single measure would have been
passed for the last 20 years but for this facile and well-paid
Swiss corps." Is it not the natural and undeniable inference
from these two passages, and does not your statement amount
to this, that every Irish representative must be paid, and that
they will all vote for their pay ?
Mr. Morris—Before I answer that question I must submit
to the chairman that the subject before this committee is not
the article of the 19th of September, but that of the Gth of
February. The statements upon which that article was
founded are contained in the Freeman's Journal, and it is
hardly fair to call upon the conductors of the paper to answer
questions concerning an article weitteu six months ago, on no
other ground than it happens to be upon the same subject as
the particular article which is impugned. You might with
equal reason call upon the Times to answer questions upon any
articles that may have been written on the conduct of the
Irish members during the last six years, or any period.
Mr. Moore—Excuse me. There is also a passage in the
article of the 6th of February to this effect :--" A committee
of the House of Commons would appear to offer the most
ready and appropriate machinery for testing the truth of au
accusation of this kind. We therefore suggest that some
member--let us hope an Irish member—will put upon the
books the proper notice for securing an investigation into the
matter. It is one which must deeply affect the character of
the Irish representatives." Now, if we are called here to test
the truth of all accusations of this kind, and if this be an ac-
cusation of precisely the same kind, and even stronger than
that to which the attention of the house was called on the 7th
of February, it would naturally suggest itself to the minds of
the committee to inquire into the connexion between the two
articles, which bear upon the same subject, and carry with
them precisely similar accusations.
Mr. Morris --The accusations there referred to had been
previously defined ; they were accusations made by Dr. Gray
and Kelly, and it was those accusations which were pointed
at in the article in the Times, calling upon the Irish represen-
tatives to inquire into the question.
Mr. Moore —We inquire into the fact of the corruption, and
not into mere allegations that may be made. It is into the
fact of corruption that I am inquiring when I put those
questions.
Mr. Morris—l submit to the chairman that I am not called
upon to answer questions which are irrelevant to the objects
of this committee.

Mr. Bright—Are the committee to understand you to say,
Mr. Morris, that you consider that you are not bound to
answer any questions whatever with regard to any preceding
article to that of the 6th of February?
Mr. Morris—Yes.

Mr. Moore—Will you allow me to call your attention to
another passage I In your article of the 6th of February you
make this remark :—" We arc not the accusers in this matter.
If Irish members are held forth to the public in this degraded
point of view, it is that they stand accused by their own
countrymen of the most signal acts of corruption."
Mr. Morris—Still occurring in the same article and accusa-
tion.

Mr. Moore—lt would scarcely be true, would it, as regards
the meaning the public would apply to that passage; it would
scarcely appear that you are not the accusers, inasmuch as six
months before you had brought forward, in a very deliberate
and elaborate manner, an accusation stronger even than that
made by Dr. Gray
Mr. Morris—l think that, supposing the public is mode-
rately reasonable, they will read the article as a whole, and
not select particular passages, and, reading the article as a
whole, they will see that any opinions which were expressed
in it were intended to apply to the particular cases then under
discussion—in fact, to the accusations brought forward by Dr.
Gray and Mr. Kelly, and to no others.
Mr. Moore—Well, I, as one of this committee, wishing to

investigate the whole fact of corruption as alleged against Irish
members, call upon you to answer the questions I shall put
to you as to the article of September 19. Ido not ask you
to name the writer, but I ask you upon what authority or in-
formation, private or public, you took upon yourself to bring
against the Irish members such accusations as you have done?
Mr. Morris—l must first ask the chairman to decide upon
my objection.
Mr. Butt—l have not this article of September before me,
but, as I recollect it, it does not contain any charge of selling
places.
Mr. Morris—l think, until my preliminary objection be de-
cided. I ought not to answer any questions.

The room was then cleared on the objection. When the
doors were again opened,
The Chairman, addressing Mr. Morris, said that the com-
mittee were of opinion that his examination might be extended
to the article of September last.
Mr. Moore—Well, taking the two articles together, does
not the accusation contained in them amount to this—that all
the Irish members are needy men, that they are all paid to
vote, and that they all vote for their pay ; and that that accu-
sation is made without any exception or explanation ?
Mr. Morris—l am not prepared to admit any inference from
the articles. I must leave it to you and the committee to
draw your own inference.
Mr. Moore—But is not that the statement made in the
Article ?
Mr. Morris—lf you ask me as an individual what my opinion

is—
Mr. Moore—l ask you as manager of the Times
Mr. Morris—As manager of the Times I am not prepared
either to go into anyjustification of the article, or to offer any
opinion about it.
Mr. Moore—Have you any objection, not as a matter of
justification or opinion, but as a mattar of fact—the article
having been written, and the accusation made—to state to
the committee upon what grounds of information or au holly
they were so written and made ?
Mr. Morris—l can only state what you youre+,•lf, or any
other person, may ascertain for himself—viz., the public in-
formation upon which the article was founded. I can refer
you to a letter which appeared in the Times on the 16th of
September, three days previous, to which the article of the
19th refers in terms. That is the public information on which
the article was grounded.
Mr. Moore—That public information being an anonymous
letter published in your own journal?
Mr. Morris—Yes.

Mr. Moore—And have you any objection to state to the
committee upon what grounds the statement in that letter was
founded ?
Mr. Morris—l cannot.
Mr. Moore —You cannot ? Therefore, in point of fact, lam
correct in assuming that your statement was made solely
because of an anonymous letter which was published in your
own journal, and that you object to stating upon what grounds
of authority or information the writer of that letter acted
when he wrote to you I
Mr. Morris—l cannot put myself in the position of the
writer of that letter. The conductors of the Times, at the
time they published it, knew who had written the letter,
and it may be presumed they believed the statements in it,
otherwise they would not have founded a leading article
uPoo it.
LIT-r. Moore—Yes, but the letter contained no public fact
Waataver Upon, which the writer based his accusations. It
was merely an assertion of facts, and I want to know whether
you
are in a position to inform the committee upon what
fretla4s, or facts, or sources of information the writer acted,
for, or. course, it is the same thing whether a statement be
made lo a letter or in a leader
Mr'
have can give yon no more information than I
already done.
‘.,
yon
two „4_,_Woll do you know as a matter of fact, or are
—.se that there are not among the Irish members
many men who are notneedy, high •
position I or who occupy asocial
mr. Morris--I am not prepared to state anything whatever
on my own authority.
Mr. Moore—No bra
You are speaking as the editor of
the Times, in which these articles • d
Mr. Morris Not as the editor but
as the manager.
Mr. Moore—Well, as the god
Mr. Morris—Yet! are but enough to call me here as
manager of the Times ; °llt I beganiderbiyt consistent with my
stating, and I must
again repeat, that I do not
cons
any questions whatever duty to answer which have a ten-
dency to elicit the information upon
which the Times ex-
presses its opinions.
Mr. Moore here, in substance, repeated
question.
Mr. Morris—l cannot answer your question without being
led eventually to dislose such information.
stated ?
Mr. Moore—Well, do you know what Dr. Gray
Do you know that Dr. Gray's statement applied
only
to a
limited number of one section of Irish members/
Mr. Morris—l have no knowledge whatever of Dr. Gray's
meaning, except what is apparent from his
whatspeec ih.
Mr. Moore—Well, I am speaking as
to 7
apparent.
Did not his accusation specially apply to a limited number of
Irish members ?
Mr. Morris—His accusation, so far as published, won
appear to point only to one individual.
Mr. Moore—Did not the insinuation particularly apply to
a particular section of Irish members ?
t Mr. Morris—l think it very probable that Dr. Gray in
ended to point his censure only against those Irish represen-
tatives
custom is.
who were opposed to himself in
polities, as
Mr. Moore—Were not his accusations directed against
those who were guilty of the practices he was endeavouring
to denounce?
Mr. Morris - I really would rather not answer any ques-
tions as regards Dr. Gray's meaning or intentions, because I
am not cognizant of them.
Mr. Moore—No ; but you said the article of February the
6th was founded on Dr. Gray's statement ?
Mr. Morris--yes ; that is the only public information.
Mr. Moore—Well, let me point your attention to a passage
in that article—" In the name of constitutional government
we may be permitted to ask, what does the section of Irish