The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-07 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDI4ON, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 7 1853,

whom I had very little acquaintance, having shown to a
comparative stranger a letter from Lord Lyndl' tnrst,
stating that "he hoped better times were coming with
reference to the Government." (Laughter.)
Lord Seymour—What did you understand by the t,n-ni
" local politics?"
Witness—l first considered it related to vestry in Aet-
ings, and such like matters only. (Laughter.)
Lord Seymour—Did you not understand it as refer] -ing
to the elections of members of Parliament ?
Witness—For the borough of Devonport, certainly. it
was previous to the election when Capt. Rich, superint(
d-
ent of the victualling yard, spoke to me alyJut interfe ri ag
in politics, but I cannot recollect the precise day. fy
answer was that I had not interfered, and that the in An
spoke to me. He advised me not to have anything to do
with the matter, and I said I would not. What he sr tad
only applied to the votes in the yard.
Lord Seymour—Did you consider the interviews in L, in-
don as a violation of the condition laid on you by Sir :F.
Baring ?
Witness—Certainly not. I interpreted the words "local
politics" as widely as possible, in order to be perfectly safe.
Sir B. Hall—Could you canvass at Woolwich ,:onsis-
tently with the conditions imposed by Sir F. Baring ?
Witness—Well, perhaps not legally.
Lord Seymour—Would it not be better that you did not
interfere at all ?
Witness—That would amount to political emasculation.
(Laughter.)
Lord Seymour—Did you not consider beinc, instru-
mental in returning new members of Parliament 'a
breach
of duty ?
Witness—Certainly not. Ido not consider cognisance
interference. Captain Rich has once or twice asked for my
opinion as to promotions. I have not had any communi-
cation with Mr. Stafford, or any person connected with the
Admiralty, in reference to the late elections. I took an
interest in the matter for the sake of my friends, and it
only so happened that they stood for dockyard boroughs.
(Laughter.) Both Mr. Tufnell and Sir John Aomilly were
extremely popular, but the former especially and on all
sides.

disqualify persons holding Dockyard appointments from
voting at elections. (Loud cheers.)
MR. DUFFY AND THE IRISH MEMBERS.
The order of the day for the consideration of the ex-
ception taken to the words uttered last night by Mr.
Duffy in the course of his speech having been read,
The SPEAKER asked if the honourable member
for New Ross was in his place.
Mr. DUFFY said—l am here, Sir.
Mr. SPEAKER—It is my duty to remind the hon.
gentleman of the proceedings which took place last
night. The house was informed by a report of the
Committee of Ways and Means, that exception
had been taken to certain words used by the
honourable member for New Ross, which were :
" Greater corruption than was ever practised in the days
of the Walpoles and the Pelhams has been practised,
under my own eyes, upon Irish members of this house ?"
If the hon. member has any explanation to make now
in the house, it is hardly necessary for me tell the hon.
member that there is always a willingness on the part
of this house to extend its indulgence to any hon. mem-
ber who, in the heat of debate, has made use of words
calculated to offend hon. members in the house, and I
trust the hon. member will now be prepared with such
an explanation or apology as may be satisfactory to the
house.
Mr. DUFFY—I wish, in the first place, to set myselr
right before proceeding to the explanation which I have
to make. I desire to recal to the recollection of the
house exactly what happened last night. When I was
interrupted it was not by a call to order, but by a chal-
lenge to prove certain statements which I had made. If
I had been called to order I should have felt bound at
once to have set myself right with the committee in
any manner which might have been deemed sufficient,
but in answer to the challenge which was given to me
to prove my words, I felt then, and I feel still, that
it would have been a course utterly irreconcileable with
my conscience, simply to withdraw a statement on its
truth being questioned. After some debate Mr. Bou-
verie at length declared me to be out of order, and I was
then about to rise immediately to take the course which
seemed to me necessary under the circumstances, and to
say that I was quite aware that the rules of debate in
this assembly, as well as of every other assembly,
ought not to be violated, and that if I had violated them
I was extremely sorry. (Hear.) I was about to take
that course when the right hon. gentleman the member
for Bucks interposed, and stated that a charge of corrupt
practices against the Ministry was not a breach of order,
but, on the contrary, the privilege, nay, even the duty,
of any hon. member of this house. (Hear, hear.) I
did not feel then that I was bound at once, with-
out ,waiting for some further debate, to take the
course which I had before meditated ; and after
that the possibility of withdrawing the words
was taken away from me by the noble lord the member
for the city of London. That noble lord stated that I
had endeavoured, after making the charge contained in
my words, to fly away from it, and avoid naming the
parties. Now the very reverse was the fact. (Cheers.)
I appeal to both sides of the house whether I did not
wait for several minutes—a long time under such cir-
cumstances—and I declared that if the committee, by the
chairman, decided that I should do so, I would at once
proceed to name the persons without avoiding the re-
sponsibility of proving the allegation which I had made.
The noble lord went on further to say that I could not
prove a syllable of what I had stated. Now, I appeal
to the house if, after such a statement, I could withdraw
my words, leaving the matter in that position. (Hear,
hear.) Would any hon. member of the house, after it
had been stated by a minister of the Crown that he
had made an allegation which he could not prove,
consent to terminate the debate by simply withdrawing
the words which he had uttered. (Cheers.) It seems to
me scarcely possible to take that course. (Hear.) After
that I withdrew by the direction of the chairman, and I
am informed that certain circumstances then took place
with respect to me. I also wish to offer some explana-
tion. I have been told by them that it was imputed to
me that I had intended to convey that money was given
to secure the votes of Irish members. Now, I distinctly
wish the house to understand that I did not mean to
convey any such thing. Now, what I wish to convey
is this—that the political profligacy which prevailed in
the times of Walpole and the Duke of Newcastle, when
men were induced to abandon the most solemn and cir-
cumstantial pledges, and to leave behind their reputation
and political character for the purpose of accepting office,
—that that conduct seemed to me to have been exceeded
by circumstances which had fallen under my own notice
since I had been a member of this house. (Loud cheers.)
I meant to charge that certain Irish members had, in
point of fact, outrun anything which I had ever heard or
read of in discreditable abandonment of their notorious
and rooted principles, for the purpose of what I
could only interpret as their own personal advantage
and advancement. If I knew what political corruption
means that is political corruption—and I repeat now
what I have said before—that if it be the wish of
this house I am ready to specify the individuals, and to
state what appear to me to be cogent facts in sustain-
ment of this allegation. These being my opinions, of
course it is impossible for me to retract what I have
said. I wish the house to understand that if in
stating them here—for I have often stated them else-
where—l have violated any rule of the house, it
was entirely outside my intention, and of course I regret
if I have offended against the proper manner of con-
ducting debate in this house, which seems to me, on
the authority of the right hon. gentleman the member
for Buckinghamshire, somewhat doubtful ; but if I have
offended, of course I regret it. (Loud cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—The honourable member has
said that I interrupted him last night in a manner
which prevented him withdrawing his charge.
Mr. DUFFY—What I said was, that after the state-
ment of the noble lord that I had made a charge of
which I could not prove the truth, it seemed to me
that a man of honour could not terminate the business
by simply withdrawing the charge.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I was about to say that the
hon. member stated in this house that corruption had
been practised on Irish members by the present Govern-
ment in a manner that exceeded the corruption of Wal-
pole and Pelham ; and, the debate having gone on for
some time, both as to the character of the words and
the course to be taken with respect to them, I think I
could have taken no other course than to have given a
complete denial on the part of the Government. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. gentleman made a general statement,
and I made a general denial. I certainly understood the
charge in a different manner to that in which it is now
stated to me. Everybody who has read history knew
that the corruption of Walpole and Pelham was of this
kind—that when there was a question which was likely
to be closely pressed in the house, that either by gift of
place or gift of money a majority was secured in favour
of the Government. (Hear.) It now appears that the
charge of the hon. member is of a very different descrip-
tion. (No, no.) Well, then, does the hon. member
mean to say that money has been given to the Irish
members ? (Mr. Duffy—"No, no.") Then it is of a
different description. What I understand the hon.
gentleman to say is that there have been members in this
house who, having given certain pledges and expressed
certain opinions in Ireland before bodies of the Irish peo-
ple, have accepted office, forfeited those pledges, and
gone contrary to those opinions. Ido not know whether
there is any accusation of corruption in the times of
Walpole which at all answers that description. Because
there were not then questions under discussion upon
which declarations of this kind could be made. What
the hon, member now states is that hon. members,
flying from pledges and not acting in accordance with
the opinions they have declared, have either accepted
office or ranged themselves on the side of the
Government. I doubt very much whether that is an ac-
cusation which could at all be declared disorderly con-
duct. It appears to me to be a matter of argument for
the house in any debate, whether those who have either
accepted office, or, without accepting office, have sup-
ported the present Government, have acted from corrupt
motives. I think the Irish members have ample means
of defending themselves, and my belief is that, instead
of acting from any corrupt motives, they have acted in
a way highly honourable to themselves. (Laughter
and cheers.) That is a matter of opinion, and a sub-
ject for discussion, and I do not think Irish members
have any reason to fear any amount of lengthy debate
on the subject. It appears there have been statements
in Ireland, that members for Ireland from corrupt mo-
tives, have taken up the cause of the Government, have
acted with them, and voted for them, and it had even
been alleged that they have received sums of money for
so doing. It appears that gross accusation is now aban-
doned, and I think it is always better, in such cases, to
allow the matter to drop, without taking any further
proceedings. (Cheers.)
Mr. J. BALL wished to say a few words, but
The SPEAKER called the hon. gentleman to order,
as there was no motion before the house.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the house do pass to
the orders of the day.
Mr. BALL then proceeded to remark that the state-
ment which the hon. member for New Ross made last
night referred to transactions which occurred four
months ago.
Mr. G. DUFFY said the hon. gentleman was mis-
taken. His statement did not refer to anything of the
sort.

Mr. Hay, chief clerk of the Admiralty, was then ex-
amined by
Sir B. Hall, who asked whether the expenses of Mr.
Stafford, as Secretary to the Board, on his visit in the
Black Eagle to Devonport last June, had not been paid
under the head of Contingencies.

Mr. Hay replied that they had.
Sir B. Hall—Will you refer to the account, and tell me
what it amounts to ?
Mr. Hay—To 72/.
Sir B. Hall—What is the amount of the bill incurred at
Moreshead's Hotel on the 22d and 23d of June, including
a dinner to a party of friends ?
Mr. Hay-481. 15s. 6d. (Sensation.)
Sir B. Hall—Do you know of any similar bill having
been sent in by a Secretary of the Admiralty, the board
not accompanying him ?
Mr. Hay—l do not. (Renewed sensation.)
The proceedings terminated at this point, the committee
adjourning to Monday.

We have been requested to publish the following letter,
addressed by Admiral Hyde Parker to Sir B. Walker :
" Admiralty, May 2, 1853.
"My dear Walker,—l regret I made a mistake about
your making use of my three letters. I was not aware,
when I said before the committee that I had only given
you permission to make use of one letter, that the three
letters were all on the subject of the master smith. You
are, therefore, perfectly at liberty to make use of tho three
before the committee.—Yours very sincerely,

" HYDE PARKER."

This note completely exonerates Sir Baldwin Walker
from having used any of Admiral Hyde Parker's letters
to him without his sanction.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-MAY 6.

( From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of
Commons.)

EXTENSION OF THE INCOME TAX TO IRELAND.
Amendment proposed, to leave out the words " United
Kingdon," in order to insert the words " Great Britain"
instead thereof. Question put, " That the words 'United
Kingdom' stand part of the proposed resolution." The
committee divided—Ayes, 286; Noes, 61.

MAJORITY—AYES, 286
Acland, Sir T. Forster, C. Murphy, F. Stack
A'Court, C. Fox, W. J. Noel, Hon. G.
Adair, Hugh E. Freestun, Colonel Neeid, John
Adderley, C. Freshfleld, J. Norreys, Lord
Aglionby, H. A. Frewen, C. H. Oliveira, Benjamin
Anderson, Sir James Gallwey, Sir W. P. Osborne, Ralph
Anson, Viscount Gardner, Richard Otway, Arthur John
Baines, MT. Gladstone, William Paget Lord George
Ball, John. Glyn, George Carr Palmer, Robert
Baldcoek, E. H. Geoderich, Vis. Palmerston, Viscount
Barnes, Thomas Goodman, Sir G. Parker, R. Townley
Barrington, Viscount Gordon, Admiral Patten, J.
Bess, M. T. Goulburn, Henry Peelle'', Sir G.
Beaumont, W. B. Grace, 0. Pellatt, A
Bell, James Graham, Sir J. Percy, J.
II nbow, John Greenall, G. Phillips, John Henry
Bentinck, G. P. Gregson, Samuel Thillimore, It. J.
Beresford, William Grenfell, C. Pigott, F.
Berkeley, Admiral Grey Sir G. Flit ington, J.
Berkeley, Hon. C. F. Grosvenor, Earl Pollard-Urquhart, W.
Biddulph, It. M. Gwyn, 'towel Ponsonby, Hn.A.G J.
Blackett, J. F. Hadfield, George Portal. M.
Blandford, M arquis Hale, Robert B. Portman, W.
Benham-Carter, Join Hanbury, Spencer B Powlett, Lord W.
Boyle, Colonel Hanmer, Sir J. Price, W. P.
Bramston, T. W. Hastie, Alexander Pritchard, J.
Brand, H. Hastie, Archibald Pugh, D.
Bright, John Hawkins, W. W. Ramsden, Sir J.
Wino, Musgrave Heathcoate, J. Bepton, G. W. J.
Brocklehurst, John Heathcoate, Sir G. Ricardo, 0.
Brother ton, Joseph Heneage, G. 11. W. Rice, E.
Browne, V. Pleneage, G. F. Robertson, P. F.
Bruce; H. A. Herbert, H. A. Roll, P.,
Bulkeley, Sir R. B. Herbert, Sidney Rumbold, C. E.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Hervey, Lord Alfred Rushout, Capt.
Burrell, Sir C. M. Heywood, James Russell, LordJ.
'miler, Charles S. Ileyworth, L. Russell, F. C.
Byng, G. H. Charles Hildyard, R. Sanders, G.
Cardwell, E. Itindley, Charles Sawle, C. B. G.
Caulfield, Col. Howard, W. G. Scobell, Capt.
Chambers, M. Howard, Lord E. Scully, V.
Chambers, T. Hudson, George Seymer, H. K.
Chandos, Marquis of Hume, Joseph Seymour, 11. D.
Charteris, F. Hutchins, E. Seymour, W. D.
Cheetham, john Inglis, Sir R. 11. Shelburne, Earl
Chelsea, Viscount Irian, Samuel Shelley, Sir J. V.
Child, Smith Jackson, William Smith, John Benj.
Christy, S. Jermyn, Earl Smith, M. Tucker
Clay, Sir W. Johnstone, James Smith, Bt. En. R.
Clifford, Henry M. Johnstone. Sir J. :Smyth. J.
Clinton, Ld C. Kendall, Nicholas Sotheron, T. U.
Clinton, Lord Robert Keogh, William Spooner. Richard
Coblx,:d, J. C. Kershaw, James stafford, A.
Cocks, Thomas S. Kingscote, B. N. F. Stanley, W. 0.
Coffin, W. Kinuaird, Arthur F. Stirling. W.
Coles, H. Beaumont Kirk, William Strickland, Sir G.
Collier, Robert P. Knightley, Rainald Strutt, E.
Colvile, Charles R. Labouchere, H. Stuart, H.
Cowan, Charles Laffan, R. M. Sturt, 11. G.
Cowper, W. F. Laing, S. Thicknesse, R. A.
Craufurd, E. 11. J. Langston, J. K. Thompson, G.
Crook, J, Langton, H. G. Thornely, T.
Crossley, Frank Lascelles, E. 4 Townshend, Capt.
Dalrymple, Vise. Legh, G. C. Tu fnell, H.
Davie, Sir H. Lennox,Lord H. G. Vane, Lord H.
Davies, D. A. S. Lewis, Sir T. Vernon.G. E. H.
Denison, E. Lewisham, Vise. Tillers, Hon. C.
Denison, J. E. Loveden, P. Vivian, J. H.
Hering, Sir E. Lowe, Robert Vivian, H. H.
Divett, Edward Luce, T. Wall, C. B.
Hammond, H. Macgregor, James Walmsley, Sir J.
Duckworth, Sir J. M'Taggart, Sir J. Welby, Sir G.
Duff, George Mangles, R. D. Wellesley, Lord C.
Dud, James Manners, Lord G. Wells, W.
Duncan, G. Mare, C. J. West, F. R.
Dundas, G. Martin, John Whitbread, S.
Dundas, F. Massey, W. N. Whitmore, 11.
Dunlop, A. Masterman, J. Wickham, H. W.
East, Sir J. B. Matheson, Alex. Wilcox, B.
Brerton, Sir P. Matheson, Sir J. Will!ems, W.
Egert n, W. Manic, Colonel Wilson, James
Egerton, Edward lil eux, Sir Henry •N' limington, Sir T.
Ellice, Rt. Hon. E. Miall, Edward Wise, John A.
Ellice, E. Milligan, Robert Wood, Sir C.
Elliot, John Mills, T. Woodd, B •
Evans, Sir De Lacy Milnes, R. M. Wortley, J. S.
Evans, William Milton, Lord Wrightson, W.
Ewa-, ~, 11'4iliam Michell, W. Wyndham, hen.
Farnham, E. B. Mitchell, T. Wyndham, Wii'larn
Fell den, AI. Moffatt, G. Wynn, H.
Fergus, John Molesworth, Sir W. Wye ill, 31.
Ferguson, Colonel Monck, Lord Young, Sir T.
Ferguson, Joseph Mouse% W.
Fitzgerald, J.
Montgomery, Sir G. TELLERS.
Fitzroy, Hon. H. Morris, D. Hayter, W. G.
Foley, John H. Mostyn, E. M. B erkeley Grenville
Forester, Colonel Mulgrave, Earl
MINORITY—NOES, 61.
Alexander, J. Hamilton, Geo. A. Prime, R.
Archdall, Captain Hamilton, J. Hans Russell, F. W.
Bailey, Crawshay Hardinge, Charles S. Sadleir, J.
Bailey, H J Keating, Robert Scully, F.
Ball, Edward Kelly, Sir F. Sibthorp, Colonel
Baring, Sir F. Kennedy, Tristram Smyth, R. J.
Bateson, Thomas Ker, D. S. Stanley, Lord
Bland, L. Knox, W. S . Sullivan, M.
Bower, G. M'Cann, J. Swift, Richard
Bunbury, W. 31` Mahon' P. Taylor, Colonel
Burghley, Lord Maguire, J. Towneley, C.
Christopher, R. Adam Manners, Lord J. Verner, Sir W.
Corbally, M. E. Maxwell, James P. Walcot, Adm.
Corry, Henry Lowry Dleagher, Thomas Walpole, SII .
Davison, R.
Devereve, J. T. Montgomery. H. L. Whalley, G. 11.
Moore, G. H. Whiteside, James
Disraeli, Benjamin Moore, RS. Yorke, Eliot Thomas
Dunne, Col. Naas, Lord
Eshionde, John O'Brien,y. Iir.LLERS.
Fuller, Angus us E. O'Flaherty, Anthony
Greene, J. Packington, Sir J. Lawless, C.
Grogan, E. Power, N. Fagan, W.

Mr. J. BALL said that he had nothing further to say,
but the hon. gentleman, against whom he had no per-
sonal animosity whatever, had stated in another capacity
than a member of Parliament, that Irish members, in
supporting the present Government, had violated a
pledge which they made four years ago. It appeared,
however, that what the hon. member said last night was
not an echo of this statement, and he had therefore no-
thing more to say in this unpleasant matter.
The SPEAKER then put the question that the house
pass to the order of the day, which was agreed to amidst
much laughter.
WAYS AND MEANS.—INCOME TAX.
The house shortly afterwards went into committee of
ways and means, when
The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bourerie) put the question
which was debated last night, namely, that the words
proposed to be left out of the resolution which included
Ireland in the operation of the income tax stand part of
the question.
Mr. F. FRENCH rose to order. The hon. member
for New Ross was in possession of the chair when this
debate was interrupted last night, and
The CHAIRMAN said the question having been put,
the hon. and learned member was out of order in
speaking.
Lord J. RUSSELL (speaking sotto voce) requested
the hon. member to speak sitting, and with his hat on.
Mr. F. FRENCH, adopting the noble lord's advice,
proceeded to say it was neither fair nor proper to put
the question in this abrupt manner. The hon. member
for New Ross was in possession of the chair when the
debate was interrupted, and he bad therefore a right
to complete the speech which he commenced last night.
Mr. GOULBURN, speaking with his hat on,)and
sitting, was understood to agree with the honourable
gentleman who last addressed the committee; but before