The Sun.
London, England, 1854-04-01 00:00:00

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abolish. (Hear.) I remember that in the year 1844 Lord !the hon. member that selfishness should be the ruling
Stratford de Redcliffe asked for the abolition of some tax 1 principle of nations, any more than it should be the mo-
of that kind, and after a great deal of argument the pacha tive of individuals. He trusted that the Government
I
who was then Minister for Foreign Affairs gave way. would direct the war to the realisation of those ends of
Lord Stratford de Redcliffe was then going away, but the justice and right which alone the people contemplated in
pacha stopped him, and said, "We have been asked to in- sanctioning the war.
terfere with your Government on the part of the poor The Marquis of GRANBY much regretted the tone of
people of England, who state they cannot eat their bread disrespect and personal hostility which had characterised
without paying a tax for it." (Laughter.) The document the language of members ou the other side of the house to-
to which the pacha referred was signed by various persons, wards the Emperor of Russia, whose every word and every
and amongst them by the hon. member for the West action was treated as though it was of necessity false and
Riding, and it asked for the intercession of the Sultan on nefarious. The Emperor accorded to those who opposed
behalf of the people of this country, requesting of him to him full credit for integrity of intention; why should
. use his influence with her Majesty's Government to abolish similar credit not be given to the Emperor ? All that
the tax upon bread. (Laughter.) I ask all those who have Russia had sought was the protectorate of the Greek
the interests of the Christians in Turkey at heart to let church in the Ottoman dominions, an object which Eng'
the Turkish Government have its way at present and they land could have no ground for resisting. The real cause
will get these concessions. (Hear, hear.) But do not, while of the unfortunate position at which we had arrived was
you talk of defending Turkey and are making arrangements the division which., ed there which had occasioned the war existed in the Cabinet; it was the civil
to defend her terrritory, be running after Reschid Pacha war that prevailed
and bullying the poor man until you drive him to tsars, with Russia. (" Oh, oh !" and laughter.)
asking these concessions. Is it, I ask, generous or politic Lord D. STUART (who was received with cries of "oh!")
to do so? I think we have been misled by our feelings said he should be sorry if anything that fell from him or
with regard to Austria. She never can embark in the po- any other hon. gentleman should have theeffect of prevent-
hey we are embarked in. Her interests are substantially ing a unanimous answer from being returned to the most
the same as Russian interests. She must have a population gracious message of her Majesty. He thought it was
amongst whom she can intrigue. She may assist in getting desirable that the House of Commons should show that
back the status quo ante bell um, but she will go no further. unanimity which he believed existed throughout the
I cannot go, with respect to Austria, to a greater authority whole country, in assuring her Majesty of their determi-
than the noble viscount before me (Viscount Palmerston), nation to assist her in carrying on the war, which had
and I beg to refer you to what that noble lcrd said with been forced upon this country by the unprincipled proceed-
respect to Austria in 1849. The noble viscount said : ings of an aggressive and ambitions power. At the same
"It is not as the ancient ally of England during war—it is time he could certainly have wished that they had from
not as the means of resistance in the centre of Europe to any the war, and particularly with regard to the
h regard to e ministers a more explicit declaration of their views with
general disturbance of the balance of power—it is as t•he for- course which they had proposed to themselves to pursue,
merahough I trust it is no longer so)—the former symbol of .
entering upon that war. Of course he was not so absurd
resistance i•
to improvement, political and social—it is in that as to ask her Majesty's Ministers to explain their military
capacity that Austria has won the affections of some men in operations to the house ; and he could not help here ob-
the conduct of public affairs. There are persons who see in serving that when the government had been asked to state
the relations of countries nothing but the intercourse of Ca- their intentions, the right hon. gentlemen and noble lords
binets--who value a country not for its political weight, but on the Treasury bench, had invariably answered that they
for its political opinions—and who consider that the relations would be departing from their duty if they entered into
between countries are sufficiently intimate when the personal
col
of
theorists. He
explanation—purposely misunderstanding the object
intercourse of their Governments is placed on a complimen-
tary footing. Sir, there are men who, having passed their- (Lord 1). Stuart) did not ask what was
to be the strategetical or naval operations of the war, but
Whole lives in adoring the Government of Austria, because
they deemed it the great symbol of the opinions they enter- he did ask, as he had a right to ask, and the country had
be told in plain terms, what it was for which
rained, at last became fickle in their attachment, and trans- a right to P,
they were going to war ? (Hear, hear.) Were they going
ferred their allegiance to the Government of France, because to war for the independence of the Turkish empire ? Did
they thought that in that Government theyrsaw an almost they mean to place Europe in such a state as should afford
equal degree of leaning to the arbitrary principle, and be- them some security that they wouldnot soon again have to
cause they, forsooth, suspected that Government of designs make the same sacrifices and bear the same burdens ? He
hostile to the interests of freedom. We have heard of persons
was greatly afraid that unless thegovernment entereclupon
.:_)fu that sort making use of the expression ' old women.' the war with a great deal more vigour than had charac-
P blic men ought not to deal in egotism, and I will not apply terised their preliminary negotiations, they would get the
to them the expression which has fallen from their own country into what might be called a state of chronic war.
mouths. I will only say that the conduct of such men is an
He hoped they would at any rate afford the house some
example of antiquated imbecility." information as to what the fleets had been doing, and what
If the description which the noble lord gave of it was given they were about in the Black Sea ; for, with every desire
merely in reference to its juvenile days, or its days of india- to give both the gallant admirals of both fleets due credit,
cretion, we might hope that during the few years which have affairs there did at present wear a veryugly aspect. (Hear,.
since elapsed it might have been improved; but it is evi- hear.) It was said that the fleets had been ordered to go and
dent that Austria is labouring under an incurable malady, sweep the Russian ships out of the Euxine so long. as the
and that, instead of improving, it is only getting worse. Bth of October; but they had certainly received orders to
(Rear, hear.) I could also quote the speech of the noble that effect ever since January. Yet those magnificent ships
lord the member for London on the same subject, when he had remained ever since strongly at anchor in Beicos Bay.
told us of the noble viscount being an English Minister and (Hear, hear.) It had been stated that the Russians had
not being a French Minister, an Austrian Minister, or a come out of Sebastopol, had gone to the coast of Circasaia,
Russian Minister. (Hear, hear.) These are vital questions and taken a large number of troops from thence back to
to consider, and if any right hon. gentleman on the Treasury Russia. Surely those troops ought never to have been al-
benches does not think that we are entering into this war lowed to return to Russia, but they ought to have been
tose maintain great principles, let himretire at once. (Cheers.) captured by the combined fleets. It was true that Lord
This is not a case for sham. (Cheers.) If men enter into Clarendon had stated so lately as yesterday that no such
a war of this kind, they have a right to do it heart and information had reached him ; but he did not say he had
souls (Cheers.) The vessel of the State is in danger, it is reason to know that nothing of the kind had taken place.
tossed to and fro by the waves, and if there be an unsteady The report had been republished in all the papers of that
hand at the helm, or some person who has mistaken his day, and it was also confirmed by private correspondence
Mission, or who is treacherous to the cause—(hear, hear)— which he (Lord D. Stuart) had received from Constantino-
I say, throw your Jonah overboard. (Loud cheers.) If pie. When the news reached that city that the Russian
s You do not, your vessel will be wrecked. (Hear.) Let us fleet was again in the Black Sea, what did the combined
know what you are going to do. Ido not ask you to let fleets do ? Did they immediately go out ? By no means.
me know what your plans of operations are. If you wished One would have thought that the admirals would have
to answer me you could not, for I conscientiously believe been anxious to capture this audacious Russian fleet which
You have no plans at all. (Laughter.) Ido not think any had come out, as it were, to beard them ; but, instead
Man should ask to have the plan of operations disclosed to pf that, they merely sent out two steamers to see
thetenemy, or that we should tell them what we are about what had happened. The steamers accordingly did go
to do. Ido not want to know what boundaries you are out, and did see what had happened—namely, that the
going to make, or what treaties you are going to sign; the Russian troops had been removed from the littoral of ,Cir-
result of a war like this must be in the hands of God, and cassia. (Hear, hear.) No one would be more glad than
God alone can determine what will be the end of it. (Hear, himself to learn that there was no foundation for the
hear.) But what I want the Government to say is, that if opinion, that the commanders of the two fleets were not
with the help of God, and with the help of strong hearts, so ready as they might be expected to be to seek for the
we shall carry the war to such an issue as will prevent Russian enemy ; and, therefore, it was that he insisted so
Russia hereafter from returning to its oppressions and from much upon information upon this point. (Hear, hear.)
shaking the tranquillity of Europe, you will take care to This war had been described as one of great importance.
keele.lier within limits beyond which she will not hereafter If properly conducted andidirected to proper ends, it might
be able to go. (Hear, hear.) I think we are fairly entitled prove to be one of the most beneficial that had over taken
to say to the Government that if they go to war merely to place in our history. Still he thought too much was
defend the territory of the Ottoman empire, and to restore said about peace. He would yield to no one in his ap-
old treaties and the status quo, it will not be a war well predation of the blessings of peace ; but what he wanted
Worthy of the occasion ,- but it will be worthy of the was a war that should end in the establishment of a
occasion if the war shall be carried on with the inten- lasting peace. (Hear, hear.) 'He did not want a war for
tion of repressing for ever these dangerous aggressions. a mere status quo, and if the Government had any idea of
(Rear, hear.) This is not a little war. (Hear, hear.) that kind, they might rest assured that the country would
It might have been made a short war if it had never be satisfied, but would deem that it was governed by
been taken up last year. (Hear, hear.) If, after the men who had no proper appreciation of their position, and
affair of Sinope, you had sent your fleet into the Black Sea, were unfit to direct the councils of a great nation.
and destroyed die Russian fleet, as you might have done, (Hear hear.) War was a state of transition ; and
you might have made a peace at once. (Hear.) But now its object was to bring about another state of things.
You have got into a great war. (Hear.) It is not easy to It might be compared to a surgical operation. It
• enaeet the Russians in Turkey. You do not . know what might afford opportunities for the display of great . skill,
teitrurkey is, or what are the resources of the country for the courage, and fortitude ; but it was not to be resorted to
I, xnaint :nance of an army. (Hear, hear.) The troops may except in cases of the last necessity and for the sake of
become infected with thee worst of fevers, and you do not placing the subject of it in a more healthy condition. He
know how many of those men who are now going to that trusted the war would have the effect of placing Europe in
country will return, unless you make some preparations a much better condition than she had been for some time.
more worthy of the occasion than you have done. (Hear.) it was their duty to seize the opportunity of doing this,
lam told that this is not a period to bring on a discussion or posterity would not pardon them. (Hear, hear.) They
of this nature. lam not insensible of the resolvability I ought to expiate the partition of Poland, and take from
have taken upon myself. I have thought night and day the haughty Muscovite the possessions which he had only
upon the subject ; but I felt I had a duty to perform, and obtained by fraud or wrongful force. (Hear.) Ho trusted
I would not flinch from performing that duty. (Cheers.) I that Europe would be placed in a position of safety for all
ask, is it not better for us now to suffer a temporary in- time to come, and that the independence of Turkey would
convenience, but if possible to have the affairs of this be preserved. He rejoiced to learn that no convention had
country in the hands of a strong Government, who will been entered into affecting the internal concerns of Turkey.
carry on this great war in a manner that will be worthy By all means let the Sultan be urged to make all necessary
of the country. (Hear, hear.) Is it better to make a sacri-
reforms, and give freedom to his Christian subjects; but
fice, and have a united mind and feeling on the subject, or
let them not do the very thing they were taking up arms
is it better to evade that inconvenience and allow the state to prevent, by requiring from Turkey stipulations which
of things at present to go on until, from divergence of opi- were inconsistent with her independence. (Hear, hear.)
lion, vacillation, and doubt, we shall be involved in dims- We could not with any grace demand such stipulations of
tens from which we shall not be able to extricate ourselves ? Turkey ; .for she might ask if we placed other religions on
(Rear.) Shall we then say it is better to have a weak than the same footing as the Christian. We had no Mahomme-
a strong Government ? (Hear.) So far from this country dans here, but we had Jews, and so long as the odious dis-
doubting of the propriety of going into this war, it has tinctions were maintained in their case, we could not make
been able to force the Ministers into it. (Hear.) No Mi- such a demand of Turkey as had been referred to. (Hear.)
sister could oppose the popular reeling on the subject, and, The house ought to have an assurance that this war would
with the exception of a small section in this house, we have not be concluded without the door being closed upon Ras-
ono united feeling on the subject. (Cheers.) If compro- sia, so that she should no longer be in a position wantonly
lenses should he proposed, that would be unworthy of the to disturb the peace of Europe. (Cheers.)
dignity and character of the country ; there is public feel- Lord PALMERSTON.—I might indeed have wished, upon
ing, and there is public opinion, and there are statesmen
that are able to resist all those attempts, and carry the an occasion of such importance as the present, when her Ma-
country triumphantly to the position in which it should be jesty has appealed to her Parliament for support in a great
Placed. (Cheers.) I know I may weaken my own position ; contest, the magnitude of which, and the importance of which
but, however inexperienced a man be, yet if he undertakes
to discharge a conscientious duty however humbly, and it is impossible to deny, that questions arising out of detailed
having credit for being influenced' by no personal or party matters connected with the conduct of negotiations should be
motives, or by the desire to impede the Government, or to postponed to another and more appropriate occasion—(hear)
Put anything in the way of the great interests of the —and that this house might have looked simply to the appeal
country, though he may have failed, or incurred any dis- which the Sovereign has made to it, and have responded
Pleasure on the part of members of the house, he must be
satisfied with his own conduct if he has, as have, the unanimously, as I am sure it will, and not only unani-
conscientious feeling that he has raised his voice on two mously, but without mixing up in the assurance of
occasions against those calamities which are, unfortunately, loyalty and devotion to the Crown any topics of a minor
impending over this country. (Hear, hear.) and subordinate description. (Hear, hear, hear.) At the
lir. BRIGHT wished to free himself from the responsi- same time, I know full well that it is the privilege of this
bility of the course which it was proposed to take. He
should not discuss the subject on peace principles, but on ho
tion use when any questions are brought under its considers-_
the Government, to discuss freely and minutely any
the principles which were generally entertained as to the topics which they may think properly connected with the sub-
necessity of war. Remarking that we were in alliance ject under debate. I shall, however, be excused, I trust, if,
with the power which had, though without guilt, begun not folio wing the example of some of those who have gone
the quarrel, he proceeded to insist upon the decaying state before, Ide not pursue the steps of my hon. friend the member
of Turkey and the strength of Russia; and said that, if
for A
we were in the position of the latter, next neighbour to a lesbury (Mr. Layard) in all the detailed examination
which he has thought it right to enter into of the conduct of•
falling power, we should interfere with her. He did not
Lord J. Russell had made out a case. The de- the GovernMent in the course of the long negotiation, which
think that
has ended in the unhappy rupture that has now arrived.
brand of Russia had been treated as much more formidable 'Mends, however, one topic to he which adverted which I
than he had been able to find it. The Sultan had not cannot allow to pass over in silence. My hon. friend has
thought it so dangerous as Lord Stratford de Redcliffe, quoted divers passages from the Times newspaper—(bear)
who had done his utmost to prevent the Porte from acced-
i taking it as an unquestionable organ of the British Govern-
ing to the smallest of the requisitions of the Czar, while
ment, contrasting the opinions expressed in certain leading
Russia had made concessions in the character of her de- articles of the Times, and opposing them to the deliberate
mends. He condemned the occupation of the Principal- comae and the general principles which her Majesty's Go-
ties, but believed it was intended to daunt Turkey and vernment have followed and established. Why, sir, Ido not
and her allies. After some sarcasms on the Vienna note, preshme to inquire from what sources the newspapers of this
he did not believe that any other than a fair interpretation country may take their inspiration; but, if any inference is
had, at first, been put on it by Count Nesseirode, though, to be drawn from the identity of opinion expressed in these
after the alterations, ho put another sense on it in order articles and the opinions expressed by the Government of
to get back to his original position. At Olmutz the Em- Russia, I should be disposed to draw a very different infer-
Peror had assented to the sense of the conference, but once from that which the hon. member has thought fit to
the fanatical council at Constantinople, at which the Chris- draw, and-if I were to search out the origin of the inspira-
tians were unrepresented, were afraid of losing their in- tion which dictates these articles, it is not, certainly to the
fluence by peace, and hastened to declare war. And for English Government that I should go. (Cheers.) The ques-
this ally we were to waste our blood and treasure. Our tion which to-night is to be submitted to the house is whe-
first blunder was in advising the Turk not to concede any- ther her Majesty will receive the support of Parliament in the
thing, and our second in supporting him on the subject of
contest in which this country is about to be involved. Now,
the Vienna note. The course he would have adePted was it is known, I think, to those who have given their attention
to have let the Porte make concessions to the last note of to the affairs of Europe for a considerable time past, that the I
Prince Menchikoff, or to the Vienna note, or else he should views of Russia upon Turkey are not of yesterday, or indeed
have gone into war alone, and France and England might of any recent date. (Hear.) It is known that for a great
have at least stood aloof until the war threatened to over- length of time it has been the standing and established po-
throw the balance of power. No real injury would have Hoy of Russia to endeavour to obtain possession of at least
accrued to Turkey from concession, if she were, as stated the European part of Turkey, and subsequently of Asiatic
,n,"-: ?rd Palmerston, a growing power, and, if she were Turkey. This policy has been pursued with undeviating and
.','."l by any advantages given to the Christians, they would systematic perseverance. It has been ever kept in view.
l'o'ineaeigrc'e in strength, and been able to supplant the Ot- When opportunities have offered steps in advance have been
in eand establish themselves as a Christian State made, and when checks have been experienced those steps
.Constantinople, which would have been far better than have been withdrawn, but only for the purpose of taking ad-
having a Mahometan
power there. And Russia would have
d have been at peace forthe present vantage of the next opportunity which offers.(Hear.)D elay
withdrawn, Europe woui
, has been no element in mitigating or in inducing Russiato
and matters have gone on to their natural solution, the sac- abandon its schemes. Its policy has been to keep one object
climbing of the M t
eahom an to the Christian population. He in view—not to hurry, not to lose its object by prematurely
wanted to know what was the balance of power. In 1791 grasping at its possession, but to watch the course of the
Mr. Burke denied that the Turk • s had anything to do with other Governments of
the balance of power in Europe, get
and he denounced them opportunity which might present itself by which it could
Europe, and to take advantage.. of every
as destructive savages; and Air-
Whitbread said that their even the slightest advance towards the ultimate object of its
expulsion from Europe would be a benefit to mankind. He ambition. Now sir, do I blame the Russian Government for
also quoted Mr. Fox on the same subject, and Lord Hol-policy of aggrandisement pur-
land in 1328. Then, if the balance had been France preserved,why entertaining such a policy.? A .
had we not gone to war with
the Turkish dominions of Algiers and with as
when she seized dangerous to yourselves, which you may oppose as destruc-
United States for their aggression in ese'xico _ the tive of the independence and the liberties of other States, but
seven years of this infatuated struggle a let America
"., But give us which is not a reproach to the Government which pursues it,
have the same periodof peace, and ahead
would show us provided it be pursued by open, undisguised, and avowed
where the balance of power lay, and whether England m9_uetancrasa,uwid2thoNeuetwc,onntetheehalaemseuernete,
wwihitehho,utlsuembtesielruigye
would retain her vaunted supremacy of industry nee' on pursued in all these recent transac-
loasandy,witthhe
the seas. He ridiculed the idea of the integrity and rude- tressli'Url
hasn G onvoTnlll
not beene
that open and straightforward course
pendence of Turkey, and said that there were statesmen
which would justify it in avowing and in boldly declaring
who believed that she would come out of this war no O. its • H hear.) But was it from ignorance that
policy. ( ear,Did
omen power at all, and, for himself, he believed that that policy was pursued ? i the Russian Government enter-
:when peace was signed there would be no Ottoman power tain any doubt whether its aggrandisement in the directien of I
to take advantage of it. Besides Russia would always be Turkey would or would not peril its relations with other coun- I
here, and always powerful and watchful, and let us reduce tries ? No such inference or doubt existed. (Hear, hear.) I
her as we may,
she wil, as soon as recruited, recommence had frequent occasion, when I held the seals of the Foreign
aggression. It was no business of ours to be the knight- Department, to communicate with an eminent Russian diplo-
nrrants of the human race. As regarded the interests of matist upon the relations between the two countries, and his
o9gland, the war had dashed down r. Gladstone's hope language to me was always this He said, " Russia and
!S M 1 :
making a reputation as a benefactor to the masses ; but England entertain different views on general principles. You
as that gentleman would never consent to retrace his steps, think constitutional government the best, we think arbitrary
the
landincome tax would be the great source of revenue, and government preferable. (Hear.) You endeavour to propagate
a would suffer most severely. He congratulated the your notions, we naturally endeavour to support our own.
RilePownen, every man with a Turk on his back. The But we have great European interests in common, and so long
orra Bill was put off trade would diminish, and the as we do not come into conflict upon the affairs of fundsTurkey---,-
and the 1 ' En landau •
English . rail ways would suffer, and 10 or 20 thousand so long as g. d Russia have no differences upon that most
homes lives would be sacrificed, and the happiness of the important point, the affairs of Turkey—so long," said he, " I
of England destroyed, and all for the sake of pre- tell my Government that there is nothing in our opposite
servingthe popularity the independence and integrity of Turkey. As for general principles of government which will prevent England
foundpopularity of the war eve war was 0 ular and and Russia from acting amicably together in other matters
advocates in the ' rY
P P ' him-
. which they have a common European interest."-• Now
self, he
Was press and elsewhere. But for in . .
horrified amazed at the policy of the Government and what wag it which made the Russian Government think the
. at the results it 'ht d He concludedrecent occasion seized upon by it was a favourable one for
with a•
long-cherished vie
Rt , . glowing picture of the haand moral'. advancing its views I Why, no doubt it ape-
- atm In Which the PIT, prosPerous, .
country would have been, had we never
Irelated upon differences—irreconcila.ble as it thought—be-
engaged in a war England and France. (Cheers.) It imagined that
Mr- J. BALL * tween
union
, . agreed with the hon. member for Man- there never could be a cordial between these two great
enester, that not(Hear.) It speculated upon differences between
having been urged
one of the grounds he had mentioned as countries. .
(Hear.) It thought • that the diffe-
just or satisfactory.as reasons for undertaking the war was England and Austria.
the ee_, He (Mr. Ball) believed, however, that rences of opinion which . had prevailed between these two Go-
bede •ee between the two nations,
jusatl,..gr.oulivnad upon which this or any other war could vernments, and to a certain degree
action between them ;and think-
plesipperee
.s the maintenance in civilised society of the , would prevent any common
d. u
eu
th
"v 4 right and justice. He did not consider with ' jug, therefore, that there was isu i among e great na,