The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-12 00:00:00

but before we assent to his doctrine on this subject, let us
look a little as to what has been the nature of this pro-
tperi. In il
pro-
perty ofthe9lMr. clergy reserves,pitt proposing an
to
dwhatseipseirteste Canadaprese intontposi-
ieltwo provinces, of which the one should be French and Ro-
man Catholic, and the other should be English and Protes-
tant, proposed that, in order to maintain the Protestant
clergy in respectability, one-seventh of the property of the
Crown—the waste lands of the Crown—should be devoted
to the maintenance of the Protestant clergy. When pressed
as
number
nthe
be r inconvenience n igehntc
be e of
inhabitingsuc a n arrange-
mentthet
pro-
vince
pe
open
Pitt
to
said
revisionf i fairly y;
if
sanidt
beaynth3l draw: as
candidly—"
the
elr not
aProtestants,
arrangement
his is
should be found that the quantity of land is too much, that
the Protestant clergy do not require so large a provision,
3lr
this, like every other act of Parliament, will be subject to
revision ;" and, accordingly, a power to vary and repeal
that act, was inserted in the act. In 1831, Lord Goderich,
with the approbation of the Crown, advised the Legislature
of Upper Canada to part with the endowment altogether,
and appropriate otherwise the funds arising from that en-
dowment. So little did Lord Goderich, then Secretary of
State for the Colonies, suppose this was an inalienable
endowment, with regard to which the honour of the
Crown was pledged. In 1840 a bill came over from
Canada, proposing to make alterations in the distribution
and proceeds of these clergy reserves. I found it was im-
possible to obtain the approbation of Parliament to that
bill; as a Canadian bill it was liable to objection in point
of law. I found also that an arrangement of a similar
kind was not likely to pass through either house of Par-
liament, and I consented, although I did not think the
arrangement an equitable one, to a division of the proceeds:
I am quite ready to state that I considered this as a final
arrangement of the matter; I believed that the Church of
England and the Church of Scotland would divide those
sums which were devoted to them by that act of Parlia-
ment. At the same time, it was easy to foresee, in the
course of events, that the affairs of Canada must take a
complexion in which it would be impossible to maintain
that guarantee. And what has happened ? For many
years the arrangement was disturbed.. The right hon.
gentleman says the arrangement was but lately withdrawn.
Was it so in JulylBso, when the Canadian Assemblyaddressed
the Crown to have the power of disposing otherwise of the
clergy reserves or the funds arising from them ? That was
considered by the Government of the day, and Lord Grey
answered that it was a matter exclusively affecting the
domestic concerns of Canada, and therefore her Majesty's
Government greatly regretted that the act of Parliament
should be disturbed, yet they could not, according to the
principles which they had held and professed, refuse to
Canada the power of interfering with that arrangement,
and of making a new distribution. Now, was it a matter
of domestic concern for Canada or not ? Was it such a
matter, that at a time when the members of the Church of
England were one-eighth of the population of Upper
Canada, they should have one-half of the proceeds of this
fund ? (Hear, hear.) Was it a domestic concern _ of.
Canada, or of the empire at large ? I think it cannot be
denied that the Protestants interested in that arrangement
were people of Canada ; but what did the right hon. gen-
tleman say when he was Secretary of State ? He said he
was for redistribution—(hear, hear)—and now he says re-
distribution is entirely different from spoliation—(cheers,
and counter cheers) ;—and that my right hon. friend the
member for the University of Cambridge is engaged in
redistribution, but in a very different process from spolia-
tion. What my right hon. friend is engaged in doing is
transferring property which it held by the clergy of the
Church of England in one portion of England to the clergy
of the Church of England in another portion of England.:
(Ironical cheers from the Opposition, answered by counter
cheers.) Therefore, what is proposed in Canada is not a'
redistribution of those funds, but it is to give to those
other Protestant subjects, and even to Roman Catholics—
ironical cheers, answered again by counter cheers)—accord-
ing to. ther number, where the Church of England are a
small proportion of the population, and they comprise
seven-eighths of that population, the power to make a dis-
tribution of those revenues more in conformity with the
demands of the country. That is totally different from the
redistribution with which my right hon. friend is concerned;
and if such are the doctrines which the right hon. gentleman
holds, friend as he is of the Church of England, they will not
apply to the Church of England in this country. I hope we
shall not hear from him that any redistribution of the
funds of the Church of England, of the Wesleyan Metho-
dists, Presbyterians, or Baptists would not be spoliation,
and that is a measure which might fairly be resorted to
under the modest form of religion. The right honourable
baronet is himself, however, not free from this charge of
proposing a different distribution of the reserves. (Hear,
hear.) The point upon which the right honourable baronet
had laid the greatest stress was the.Bth section of the act
of the guarantee proposed from the Consolidated Fund.
But he had omitted one part of the statement which I
tmhairdde
etlhe ausoet.herl
sntiagth when
edt
that
t I proposed
theseaseciuetone leave
eefleaovu the
third leaving it
out would be argued in two different ways, either that the
guarantee was only to be considered as contingent upon
the failure of the clergy reserves to form a sufficient fund,
or as an absolute guarantee, and upon that question I said
that I would give no opinion whatever. All I stated was,
that I thought all the benefits which could in law be de-
rived from that clause ought to remain with the two
churches to which it was given. (Hear, hear.) The right
honourable baronet has pressed me to obtain the opinion
of the law officers of the Crown upon that point. I have
obtained it for him---(a laugh)—and it seems to have given
him that peculiar kind of satisfaction which he expresses
by the word " pain." (Laughter.) In point of fact, the
pleasure and pain of the right honourable baronet seem
closely allied. It may have been a great object with him
to obtain that opinion, but I • doubt whether in Canada
those who wish these funds to be preserved in part to the
Church of England will thank him for his exertions.
(Hear, hear.) But the great point is that the settlement
of this question is one of purely domestic concern, upon
which the people of Canada ought to legislate for
themselves. What did the right honourable baronet say
last year ? He stated that he could not bear that
a subject so sacred should be decided by accidental
majorities ; upon which Mr. Hinckes replied to him that if
accidental majorities were not to decide questions, what
was the meaning of constitutional government, and of the
many decisions which bad been come to by the Parlia-
ment of this country during the last century? He also
argued that it would not be an accidental majority of the
Canadian legislature which would decide on this subject,
because the whole question had been argued fully and de-
liberately, and upon the justice of the question the people
of Canada could have no doubt. It was certainly very
mortifying, and I confess I felt myself humbled, to hear
the Colonial Secretary of the Government of this county,
so completely defeated in argument by a member of the
colonial legislature. (Cries of " Oh, oh," and " hear,
hear.") I own that it appears to me the question can be
decided upon no other ground than that which has been
taken from the beginning, viz., that it is a question upon
which the people of Canada and their representatives alone
must decide. We have never denied that the great issue
to be decided is, whether or no you will give to the pro-
vince of Canada the power of legislating upon this subject.
(Hear, hear.) And that is my answer to the hon. member
for Midhurst, who told the house that the voluntary prin-
ciple was a very bad one, and that the principle of the
Church establishment was a very good one, and leads to
prosperity and happiness. All I have to say is, that
that is an arrangement which I advise the honourable
member to address to the Assembly of Canada. If I
were arguing in this house with respect to the establish-
ments of the United Kingdom, I should say that I en-
tirely agree with him in the arguments which he has put
forward. (Hear, hear.) But with respect to this ques-
tion, if the people of Canada—and I do not shrink from
the consequences—say,. " We are of opinion that Church
establishments are not for the benefit of Canada ; that
religion will be increased by adopting the voluntary prin-
ciple ; and that neither the Church of England, nor the
Church of Rome, nor the ministers of any other denomina-
tion shall have any income from the State, or any part of
the clergy reserves," I say, if that is their solemn and
deliberate conclusion, they must have their own will upon
that subject. (Hear, hear). If, on the other hand, they
should think that at least a large proportion of these
clergy reserves should be distributed equally among the
ministers of various religious denomination, I believe they
will come to that very wise conclusion, but it is a conclu-
sion with respect to which I will use no force, nor compul-
sion, whatever in the legislature. (Hear, hear). The
right honourable baronet had argued as though this were
a new principle, and as though we were endeavouring to
establish some principle hitherto unknown. If the house,
however, will look back to the debates in 1791, they will
see that upon the first introduction of the constitutional
act by Mr. Pitt, Mr. Fox laid down that rule which we
now adopt. This, in fact, is the only principle by which
we can hope to arrive a prosperity, and to maintain har-
mony and union between this country and the colonies. If
we insist that we must have own notions carried out, and
our own ideas prevail, the connection between this country
and that province of Canada will be very short. If you
wish to retain your colonies your legislation must be
founded upon liberal principles, and if so founded, the
connection will long endure, and the colonists will value
your generosity and maintain their reverence of the name
of " Britain." I believe such a connection would be highly
honourable, both to this country and the colonies, and it
is a connection which may be a , source of prosperity to
both. If, on the other hand, you select to go back to the
system of minute regulations in local affairs, then indeed
you must bid adieu, not only to this noble colony of
Canada, but to many others. These principles are not
new, they are the ancient principles upon which your
colonial empire was founded, and I trust you will not de-
part from them ; and if you confirm the third reading of
this bill, I belive you will promote a long continuance of
this honourable connection between this empire and its
colonies. (Hear, hear).
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment.. 2OB
Against the amendment 2BB
yeeergdaiinngsltythreeadamaenthdmirdenttime
and
passed.
—BO.
REDEMPTION ACTS.
COThNeSObillL3llwDajaAosriTED FUND AND NATIONAL DEBT
act

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in moving
that the report of the committee of the whole house on
these acts be considered, said that on the 6th resolution,
which provided that if the South Sea Company should on
or before "the 3d of June" signify their assent to com-
mute their stock, he should propose to substitute the
words " the Ist of July," because it had been represented
to him that the South Sea Company would require to give
three months' previous notice before the business connected
with such commutation could be transacted. In resolution
15, which provided that the trustees, &c., converting South
Sea Stock should be indemnified, he proposed to insert the
words, " as well as in respect of other stock."
The several resolutions were then read, and as amended
were agreed to.
In answer to a question from Mr. WALPOLE,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, jhat
the notices required by the resolutions were quite optiffnal.
The only notice to which the law had reference was in the
case where the redemption was in money. The right hon.
gentleman then moved an address to her Majesty that she
would be pleased to direct the necessary notices required
to be given by an act passed in the 12th year of King
George 1., entitled " An Act for granting to his Majesty
the sum of 1,000,000/. to be raised by way of lottery," be
issued.—Agreed to.
COPYHOLDS BILL.

The bill was read a second time and ordered to be com-
mitted on Monday nest•
SHERIFF AND COMMISSARY COURTS' (BER-

WICKSHIRE) BILL.

This bill went through committee.
PLACES OF RELIGIOUS WORSHIP REGISTRA-
TION BILL.
- -

This bill was read a second time, to be committed pro
forind on Thursday next, when amendments will be in-
troduced.
LAW OF EVIDENCE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed, and, the
other business on the paper having been disposed of, the
house adjourned at a quarter to 1 o'clock•