The Sun.
London, England, 1853-06-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVEN ING, JUNE t:4, 1853.

VEREAL PARMA I,IE NT.

aside a certain proportion of cadetships and writerships
to be given away by the court itself, not by individual
members of it, but subject to the approval of the Presi-
dent of the Board of Control. lie should suggest that
six of each class of appointments should be so disposed
of at the periods when the batches of cadetships were
distributed. He would have those given away on the
same plan as good services of those employed were noted
down. If that plan was pursued, the President of the
Board of Control would have an opportunity of judging
of the c'aims of those whose sons and relatives were to
have those appointments. There was one advantage de-
rivable from that part of the proposition of the Govern-
ment, which, as it were, held the axe continually over
the head of the East India Company, and by which it
was prlvided that there was nothing to prevent Par-
ham, nt from making any alteration in the system
whenever they chose. That would prevent there being
any material difficulty in the adoption of his plan.
(Hear.) He admitted that it was desirable to infuse
new blood into the Indian service, and he did not
wish it to become hereditary ; but at the same
time it was essential that in the case of a portion
of those who had served best in India, their sons should
run the same career as themselves. (Hear, hear.) He
rejoiced to say that he had now nearly passed through
that portion of the subject which involved amend-
ment in this country, and he now came to that which in-
volved alterations in India itself. He saw no objection
to the formation in this country of a legislative commis-
sion to consider the expediency of altering the law. He
had no doubt there were many gentlemen in this country
who were capable of suggesting any general system of
law ; but the proposition really meant the introduction
of the " Macaulay Code." He had heard that code much
discussed in India, and he never heard any gentlemen
but those who were merely philosophical lawyers who
approved of it. It proposed one universal code for In-
dia ; embracing as it did so many different races. So
far as the criminal law was concerned, that might an-
swer, but as to the rest of the system the feelings, habits,
and manners of the people ought to be considered in
making laws. As to the criminal code, let this country
try it on itself ; it had a code which it approved, let it
try Macaulay's code, and if it gave satisfaction when ap-
plied bodily to this country ; if it succeeded here let it
be applied to India. It was proposed that there should
be a Legislative Council of India, of which the executive
government was to form a part. That was a great im-
provement. He had always advocated the Governor-
General's having a veto. Still, there was an objection,
for it appeared that the Legislative Council was to be
partly composed of gentlemen in the Civil service brought
from the other presidencies to Calcutta. What were they
to do with their leisure time ? Legislation would not oc-
cupy them from morning till night ; they could not be
always making and altering laws. Was that council to be
sitting perpetually ? If not, those gentlemen would be
idle for a great part of the year, and the value of their
salaries lost. There was another important alteration.
He had advocated twenty years ago an amalgamation of
the Sudder courts with the Supreme Court. It was said,
however, that in such a combined court the English
lawyers would override those of India, and that should
be looked to. It was said that there was to be a Lieu-
tenant-Governor for Bengal. He wished to know whe-
ther that officer was to be appointed by the Supreme
Government, like the Lieutenant-Governor of Agra, and
whether his tenure of office, like that of the Lieutenant-
Governor of Agra, was to be for life ? All other go-
vernors were appointed for five years----was the Lieute-
nant-Governor of Bengal to remain permanently in office
till he was tired and came home That point should be
understood and stated. He wished that the appoint-
ment should rest with the Supreme Government and not
with the home government. It would not do for the
Supreme Government to be bearded by a person ap-
pointed at home. With regard to the higher patron-
age, it had been hitherto arranged, that when a Lieute-
nant-Governor of Bengal had been appointed, that that
patronage should be exercised subject to the approval of
the Governor-General. He had always approved of the
appointments made by Mr. Wilberforce Bird ; and in no
one instance was it necessary for him to dissent from the
appointments made by that gentleman, and he was glad
to have this opportunity of stating so much with regard
to one of the most respectable Indian servants he ever
met with. There was another alteration which he thought
important with reference to the officer commanding the
Queen's troops, who had hitherto commanded the Indian
army, but which command was now limited to the
Queen's troops (as we understood). He thought that if
the Queen appointed an officer of higher rank to com-
mand her forces !than any Indian officer, he should be
in command,'and ex officio have a seat in the council.
There never was any question of the command of the army
in the field. He hoped the Government would consider
this when they came to the details of their measure. There
was another matter on which the plan of the Government
had not been announced. There was still something to
be done with respect to the question of " Furlough." It
was a very interesting subject to Indian officials,
whether civil or military. He thought if an officer was
to be absent from his duty, it was better that he should
be in England ; because if he went to Australia or the
Cape it was more difficult to get him back if he was re-
quired, than if he was in England. But he said now
what he had always said, although it was not popular in
India, that no man should retain any office more than a
year, the duties of which he could not perform, by
reason of his absence. He might be restored to it, but
he ought not to hold it as a freehold during a long
absence. He was desirous that all appointments of

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack
at five o'clock.

THE TURKISH QUESTION.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE asked the noble
lord at the head of the Foreign-office whether the state-
ment which had lately appeared in the Moniteur, that
the English and French fleets had proceeded to the Dar-
danelles, and had received instructions to await there in
concert any orders which they might receive from the
Ambassadors of their respective countries at Constanti-
nople. He might say that he had read that statement
with the greatest satisfaction, and he thought that if true
it would have the effect of rendering a war impossible.
The Earl of CLARENDON said the statement wWch
had appeared in the Moniteur was perfectly correct.
When the news of the departure of Prince Mentscbikoff
reached this country, and when it was understood that
the rupture was accompanied by menacing circum-
stances, her Majesty's Government thought it necessary
to send out to Lord Stratford de Redcliffe power to
summon Admiral Dundas and the fleet to Constanti-
nople when it should seem fit, and orders had been sent
to Admiral Dundas to repair to the Dardanelles there
to await any orders which he might receive from Lord
Stratford. This step had been taken in concert w;th
the French Government, between whom and this
country the most cordial understanding on this subject
existed. Both the ambassadors and admirals of the
two countries were acting under instructions similar in
character. It was hoped that there would be no necessity
for taking further proceedings, because the mea-
sure was only one of precaution, and he believed that
it would have considerable effect on the pacific solu-
tion of the present crisis.
The Earl of DERBY enquired on what date had these
instructions been sent out.
The Earl of CLARENDON said either on the day or
the day but one after the news of Prince Mentschikoft's
departure had reached this country.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from
Sheffield praying that the support of this country might
be afforded to Turkey in her present difficulty.

THE INDIA BILL.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH rose to move for
correspondence between the President of the Board of
Control and the Court of Directors on the subject of the
measure to be proposed for the future Government of
India. The noble earl said that in the early part of the
year he had expressed an opinion that it would not be
expedient to legislate for India this year, since sufficient
information was not yet obtained for the purpose, yet,
owing to the particular bearing of the present state of
affairs in the east of Europe, or our position as an
Asiatic power, he had come to the conclusion that we
ought to set our house in order, and he WAS therefore
disposed to acquiesce in the expediency of immediate
legislation. The measure, however, of her Majesty's
Government was more calculated to continue agitation in
India, instead of allaying it. It was a measure which con-
tained two experiments— Dne upon the Court, and the
other upon the persons to be sent out to India. The
experiment upon the Court was one partaking of an
Asiatic character—it was an experiment of mutilation.
Certainly, in the East, mutilation was usually performed
by the public executioner, but this mutilation
was to be performed by the parties themselves.
He certainly did not approve of this proposed
measure, because the rules which the Government had
drawn were such as would exclude from the Court of
Directors those very persons most likely to be useful.
He believed that, if adopted, it would cause so many
abuses as would lead to the very speedy downfall of the
Court of Directors, and the whole power would be thrown
into the hands of her Majesty's Government at once. He
thought the first thing to be done was to reform the consti-
tuency, for at present out of 1750 constituents only 200
had ever been in India. He would propose that all per-
sons in the civil and military service, all colonels on
furlough, ought to have the power of voting in elections
for directors. He believed that there ought to be in each
court a representative of each of the armies. He re-
gretted that no step had been taken to put an end to
the system of double Government—the most irrational
system of Government which the world had ever seen—
more irrational even than the government of the "Grand
Llama ;" for although that was a "sham," like the
Indian government, yet it was supported by the "pres-
tige" of religion, while the latter was supported only by the
"prestige" of clinging to the bad habits of make-shifts until
they broke down. It was necessary to consider the
effect the alteration of the constitution of the Court of
Directors would have on the distribution of patronage.
It was proposed that admission into the civil service
and the scientific branches of the army should hereafter
be thrown open to competition ; that candidates should
be examined, and the best of them admitted into
Addiscombe and Haileybury, and that those persons
alone should fill offices in the civil service and the sci-
entific branches of the army. He was not aware whe-
ther the Government had considered one necessary
consequence of this alteration—a most important one,
and affecting the whole social system of India. It
altogether dissevered the civil service from the Court
of Directors. That service had always been filled by
the sons and relatives and connexions of directors,
who were the constant objects of their care, and they
preserved a sort of ideal superiority over the military, a
superiority which he (Lord Ellenborough) did not think
they necessarily possessed. That system was altogether
practically removed, and all the favour which had been
hitherto shown to the civil service would hereafter be
shown to the officers of the regular army, where only
would be found the sons, relatives, and connections of
directors. This would materially affect the social posi-
tion of persons in the Indian service. He did not de-
precate it, but he thought it right to mention that it
would cause a great social revolution. It was proposed
that persons desiring to become officers in the scientific
branches of the army should go through an examination
before admission, and not be appointed by favour.
With regard to the scientific branches of the army,
and especially the artillery, it was unimproveable. He
really did not see how it was to be improved. Every
military man who knew anything of the matter declare d
that the artillery was as good, if not superior, to any in
the world, and it owed that superiority, not only to the
scientific acquirements of those who belonged to it, but
to the tone which they gave to it by being gentlemen.
The same could be said of the engineers, and no exception
could be taken to that branch. With regard to the civil
service, he would say (though, personally, he had no
particular reason for being satisfied with it) that those
employed in it were also gentlemen, and he did not see
by the process of the proposed examination that better
men would be got. Nothing was so important as the
preservation of the tone which was given to both ser-
vices, and everything should be done to raise and ele-
vate that tone, than which nothing would more tend to
the preservation of our influence in India ; and some-
thing could be done in that way by sending out persons
of higher connections here, and giving those who served
in India a higher position when they returned to
England. As regarded the army that would give
a greater security against mutiny and insubordina-
tion. Look back to the time when the officers of
the Indian army were not gentlemen, but collected from
the refuse of this country ; there were constant mutinies
and charges of insubordination against men calling
themselves officers. You did not see that now, for al-

Members of Council and of the Advocate General should
be approved by the Board of Control. He did not
question the manner in which members of council
were appointed ; on the contrary, he thought it was a
part of the exercise of the 'patronage of the Court of
Directors which would best bear inspection. With re-
gard to the Advocate-General, it was necessary that he
should be appointed by the Crown. lie would suggest
to the noble earl the President of the Council, who had
made himself acquainted with this question, that as the
Advocate-General, and the Sudder, and Queen's judges,
were to be members of council, there was no want of
the legal members of the legislative council ; there
would be enough of legal knowledge in the council with-
out him. He would suggest that it wauld be a highly
judicious addition to the measure, that, with the excep-
tion of the nominations to cadetships and the appoint-
ment of governors and the Governor-General, the
Court of Directors should not appoint any officer
in India whatever. They had hitherto appointed per-
sons to offices in the civil service which could not be
consistently held by military officers. One unfortunate
case had come to his knowledge : that of an officer in the
Madras army who was appointed to . superintend the
cotton operations in one of the districts of India ; he.
was afterwards found to be a public defaulter, and had
taken a most improper advantage of his office to traffic
for his own profit ; being at the time in partnership
with a gentleman in the direction under the name of
his son, who was a minor. All these facts had been
sent by him to the Court of Directors for their exami-
nation—but they did not think it necessary to divulge
the circumstances under which this gentleman stood,
and the result was that the Court of Proprietors in ig-
norance of the facts elected him a director, and there he
is now. He was informed that at the moment of his
election the question was under discussion whether he
should not be dismissed the service, it being contrary to
the regulations that any person should remain in the
service who was engaged in trade. There was another
case, the circumstances of which he was not personally
acquainted with, and for which therefore he would not
vouch—of a person who was appointed to an office
about the mint after his conduct had been twice in-
quired into. He thought it essential to the good go-
vernment of India that all patronage should be exercised
by the Court under the control of the Crown. But
speaking generally he should be trifling with their lord-
ships if he did not declare his fixed opinion, that after
all the character of our Indian government must de-
pen I mainly upon the character of the Governor-Gene-
ral and the support he obtained from the Government
and Parliament at home. It was the Governor-General
who alone was responsible for all the acts of the Indian
Government. Few in this country knew even the names
of the gentlemen who formed his council ; and, if they
were knewn' no one would look to them as responsible
authorities. Compare his situation with that of the Prime
Minister of the Crown here. His noble friend opposite
(the Earl of Aberdeen) was surrounded by gentlemen, he
would not say of equal ability, but of great ability and
experience, selected by himself, and having his entire
confidence, each managing his own department ; and
while questions of great importance were communicated
and considered between him and them, he was saved
from the investigation of minor matters ; and if subjects
of great difficulty arose, he might, as other ministers
had done before him, throw the responsibility upon Par-
liament. How different was this from the position of
the Governor-General—he landed without any know-
ledge of the country he was going to govei n, except such
as he might have picked up on his voyage or from read-
ing statistics of India ; he knew nothing of the people,
or of those who were in authority, and he was compelled
to commence his government with the ministers of his
predecessor, though he might altogether differ from his
predecessor in his views and his policy. Then the Go-
vernor-General had in his own person to perform all the
duties of the Foreign-office ; be had the disposal of, and
was responsible for, the whole military arrangements.
He was responsible for the whole conduct of war when
we were engaged in war, and for all the details, commis-
sariat, and everything else. All the departments of the
Government were in his own hands, and were to be car-
ried on on his own responsibility ; and from the day he
landed in India until the day when, to his own great sa-
tisfaction, he placed his foot on board ship to return
home, he had not only not one day, but not one hour of
rest or relaxation. (Hear, and a laugh.) Then consider
what was his position in regard to the country he had to
govern. In this country, if his noble friend at the head
of the Government carried out a policy which was for
the public benefit, he had the support of the public, and
of the public press, expressing the public voice—he was
at the head of a strong Government. But in India,
the Governor, however wise and beneficial his
measure, could not hope to have the support of the
public and the press of the country. The press
in India represented, not the public, but the officials ;
it represented a certain number of men, having interests
of their own, which they consulted, and did not repre-
sent the people at large, or the advantage of the general
public. With the knowledge he had of the numerous
difficulties attending the performance of the duties of
Governor-General of that important but perilous em-
pire, it was essential that he should at all times have
the ostensible and cordial support of all the authorities
in England, without which he could not possibly per-
form those duties to the satisfaction either of the people
of India or of the people of England. He would not
say whether that support had at all times and under all
circumstances been accorded, but unless as a rule the
home authorities acted unitedly with, and gave all the
strength they could to his government, however de-
sirous he might be to act for the benefit of the country
be was sent to govern, he would have occasion to rue
the day when he was appointed to that high position.

though there were some exceptions in the cases of some
who had been tried by courts-martial, the officers of the
Indian army were in general gentlemen in every sense
of the word. With regard to the improvement of the
civil service, he saw as much room for improvement as
he did last year, when he deprecated the exclusion of the
members of the aristocracy from that service. He,
however, saw some means for getting such persons
into the service by competition. He believed that
their lordships' sons and relatives were as equal to
enter on that competition as any one, and he saw
with pain that part of the speech of the Minister
for India which stated that as much encouragement
was to be given to the son of a horse-dealers as any
one else. Nothing could be more offensive to the people
of India than such a course ; and it was not in India
that you could safely introduce the manners of the
stableyard. But it was said that all candidates were to
be admitted by merit. Now what was the merit of
" cramming 1" (Hear, hear.) Real knowledge was not
obtained by cramming ; even the horse-dealer would
not feed his horses on that plan—and was it not by that
system that a man's mind was to be fed, and he himself
fitted for the performance of his duties ? Unlearned in-
competence was a bad thing, but learned incompetence
was worse, because it was accompanied by self-sufficiency.
(Hear, hear.) In his experience he had observed that
in public life the most useless person, and in private so-
ciety the greatest bore, was an over-educated meddler.
(A laugh.) And it was proposed to inundate India with
them. It was not to qualities such as that but to cha-
racter that the people of India looked ; it was not what
was crammed into a man in schools that gave him in-
fluence, but knowledge of the world, and readiness and
aptitude for his duties. There was to be no competition
after a man got to India, but he was left in the same
position as he now was, and could only rise by seni-
ority. So that he who was not fit to be an attorney's
clerk might rise to be a judge, and one who was not fit
to keep the accounts of a little shop might become a
collector. A man who was first in the examination at
Addiscombe or Haileybury might be practically inferior
to many whom he beat there ; and it was not at that
period of his life, but at a later time, that he would indi-
cate his capabilities. The adoption of this plan would be
falling into a great and serious error. Look how it would
work against the officers of the army. They were, he was
sorry to say, poor men. They bad, to be sure, handsome
pay, but things which were luxuries in England, were
necessaries in India, and their expenses were great;
while many of them had poor relatives in England ;
and nothing could exceed the kindness and generosity
they displayed towards them. The result was, that
they were poor men, and though they did manage to
send their children to England to be educated, it was
only done by great self-denial, and it would be im-
possible for them to give their sons the education in
, cramming " schools, which would be necessary
to get them into Addiscombe and Haileybury, and
that only for the chance of their being able to enter the
civil service and the scientific branches of the army.
rr
oe
leltyo r s . The six
ng e
So that practically it would be excluding all the
sons of the officers of the regular army. They
have
would have little chance of obtaining appointments
t o appointedthe by
civilt the e Crownservice.
fwroomuldthgeendei
having little connection with the army, and would have
their own friends to serve, while as
of the court it would lose character every would
day,
become the nominees of City houses, be a mere jobbery,
and they would care nothing for the officers of the Indian
army, since they would know nothing about India. It
would therefore be absolutely necessary, unless there was
such an extension of the constituency as he (Lord Ellen-
borough) proposed, so as to get Indian officers and
members of the civil service to elect the directors, to set

The Earl of GRANVILLE bore hi. el testimony t th
intimate knowledge evinced by the no ble lord on this°sub-
ject, and to his impartiality, and fr, :edoin from party
feelings, both in committee and in hig speeches in that
house. Having received the opinion of the East India
Company, tha'6 delay in legislation for India might be
dangerous, the Government would not incur the respon-
sibility of neglecting it. The defects of the Govern-
ment of India had been very much exaggerated and
uncharitably considered. Although the difficulties of
governing a new country were generally well-known,
India had prospered to a great extent under the most
adverse circumstances, and he was not prepared to ad-
mit that the existing form of Government should be
overturned.
Lord MONTEAGLE contended that the East India
Company had neglected to fulfil the duties enjoined upon
them by the charter of 1833, and that it was unwise to
introduce any measure for the permanent government
of India, until the committees now sitting had made
their report.
The Duke of ARGYLL rejoiced to hear from the
noble earl who introduced the motion, that in the exist-
ing state of our Indian empire, and looking to the posit
tion of things in the East, it was the duty of the govern-
ment to settle this great question. (Hear, hear.) He
trusted it would be sufficient for the country to be in-
formed that Lord Dalhousie had expressed a strong
opinion against delay, by which the authority of the
English Crown might be endangered. Great expecta-
tions had been raised on the part of the people of
India as to the changes about to be effected, and it
was necessary that the measure should be at once
proceeded with. The house and the country were
now fully informed as to the nature of the legislation
which the government proposed, and he hoped that no
unnecessary opposition would be offered to the progress
of the measure.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE deprecated hasty
legislation on this important question. The only reason
urged against delay was the letter, eternally referred to,
of Lord Dalhousie, but no Minister of the Crown ought
to quote from such a document without producing it.
(Hear, hear.) Lord Dalhousie, when he gave the
opinion which had been quoted, had no notion of the
state of feeling in this country or of the measure pre-
pared by the government. The plea that agitation pre-
vailed on this subject in India was of but little avail, for
the measure proposed by the government was likely to
keep up that agitation. The most important evidence
had been given before both houses on the subject, and
more time should be taken to prepare the measure,
which ought to be held up to the people of India and
this country as a wise, salutary, and permanent act
of legislation, and not a mere temporary expedient.
The Earl of ALBEMARLE objected to a double
government as expensive, irresponsible, and opposed to
the prosperity and well-being of India. The President
of the Council said that more attention would be paid
to education and public works : but as long as the
double government existed, any improvement, intellec-
tual or physical, was impossible. As to the agitation,
an agitation for better measures would be salutary ; but
a dangerous agitation, arising from an extravagant ir-
responsible double government, was greatly to be appre-
pended. He remembered an outbreak in 1810, at
Benares, when the government attempted to lay on a
house tax in the province of Bengal. It was resisted
in a most determined way. All the population left the
town, the dead were thrown into the river because there
was no one to bury them, and the government at last
abrogated the tax as to Benares, but layed it on other
parts of the province. The noble earl instanced other
cases of similar agitation, and warned the government
against the renewal of such scenes which might arise
from the disappointment of the people at the meagre
and inefficient character of the measure. The opinion
of the Governor-General on such a subject was entitled
to but little weight, surrounded as he was by the Court
of Directors, whose opinions must necessarily influence
his views. (Hear, hear.)
The motion was then agreed to, and the house ad-
journed at half-past 9 o'clock.

have no objection to answer the question, but at the
same time he thought the question was one which he
should have abstained from putting had he been in the
position of the hon, and gallant member opposite.
MEDICAL POOR-LAW OFFICERS.
Mr. BRADY wished to ask the Chancellor of the
Exchequer if it was his intention during the present
session, to introduce a bill to provide for the payment
of medical officers under the Medical Charities Act in
Ireland, in the same manner as the salaries of the medi-
cal officers under the Poor Law in England are paid ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
was unable to answer the question as the subject had
not yet come under his consideration.
METROPOLITAN SEWERS.
In reply to a question from Mr. BUTLER,
Lord PALMERSTO.N said he was hound to admit
that many parishes of this vast metropolis were entirely
destitute of sewers, but the Commissioners of Sewers
had only a limited power of raising, fonds, and a bill was
now under consideration for enabling them to raise
money by way of mortgage on the security of the rates.
OCCUPATION OF ROME BY THE FRENCH.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the hon. member for Fins-
bury had given notice of a motion on the subject of the
occupation of Rome by French and Austrian troops,
but, in the present state of public affairs it would
not be consistent with the public interest that such
motion should be brought on, and he had there-
fore to ask the hon. gentleman to postpone his motion.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE regretted the necessity which
compelled the noble lord to ask this question, as he was
afraid his postponing the motion would greatly disap-
point parties out of doors. At the same time, under
these circumstances, he thought he had no alternative
but to accede to the noble lord's request, though
he was bound to add that it had not been his intention
to submit his motion in an offensive spirit to the French
nation, or in a manner disrespectful to the Sovereign of
France. (Cheers.)

CUSTOMS DUTY.
In reply to a question,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
it was a mistake to suppose that there had been any
intention to abolish the five per cent. additional duty
imposed in 1840 on the importation of cotton articles,
but this-he could tell the house, that while in 1840 there
were no less than 1,200 articles liable to the duty, there
were at the present time only 22. (Hear.)
SUCCESSION DUTY BILL.
On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Sir J. PAKINGTON rose 'to move the amendment of
which he had given notice, that the bill be committed that
day six months. Ho regarded not only this tax, but still
more the machinery by which it was proposed to enforce it,
with the greatest possible disapprobation, and ho thought
that if they passed this bill they would abandon their first
daty to those who sent them there. In stating to the
house the views he entertained on the subject, he was
bound to bear in mind that he should not do so for the
first time, and that he had already, at considerable length,
explained his views when the right hon. gentleman pro-
posed his resolutions. The speech of the right hon. gentle-
man, in introducing the resolutions, was marked in a con-
siderable degree as delivered in a tone of authority. The
right hon. gentleman touched undoubtedly on the great
objections felt in various quarters to this tax, but he
glanced at them very lightly, and he abstained altogether
from entering into any explanation of the details on which
the objections to which this particular description of tax
rested. In the speech which he (Sir J. Pakington) then
made, he challenged the Government to meet him fairly
with figures, and to join issue with him in the objections
that he entertained ; and he stated then, and repeated
now, that anything like party opposition to a proposal of
this kind must be unsuccessful, and must fail, unless it
rested on the strong clear ground of reason and of justice.
Ho was very likely to fall into errors of detail, as he had
not access to official documents. He might have been in.
correct in particular items, but he felt strong in the opinion
that, as regarded the general substance of the figures which
he had stated, they were unimpugned in argument and in
justice. Ho was not followed by any member of the Go-
vernment, and he felt this a disadvantage in addressing the
house again. But though no answer was then made to the
arguments ho used, there were two important respects in
which he stood in a different position from that which he
occupied when last ho addressed the house on this subject.
There had been a most important discussion on this sub-
ject in another place since that period. Since that period
the bill had been placed in their hands, and it entirely
justified the opinions he had previously formed of the mea-
sure, and particularly of the machinery by which the tax
was proposed to be collected. (Hear, hear.) He would,
however, first advert to the discussion " in another place,"
to which he had already referred. The opinion of that
assembly was tested by a division ; and the Government
was saved from virtual condemnation by a very narrow
majority—by the votes, in fact, of that portion of the as-
sembly whom he might describe as "corporations sole"
(the bishops), and who expressed their entire approbation
of an impost that would fall neither upon their order nor
upon themselves. (Loud cheers.) But what the country
would regard much more than the result of a close division
was the signal triumph of argument and reasoning which,
in his opinion, was entirely on the side of the opponents
of the measure. (Hear, hear.) On the one side they had
in a remarkable degree legal learning, close reasoning, and
great eloquence, wheaeas that reasoning and that eloquence
was only met on the other by brief statements of the one
only argument which hehad ever heard advanced in favour
of the proposal of the Government—namely, the alleged
anomaly of the present legacy duties. (Hoar.) That had
been the argument, too, of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The right lion. gentleman told them likewise that he pro-
posed the tax as a substitute for the income tax. Well,
his (Sir J. Pakington's) answer was ready. Looking at the
nature of the tax ou succesoiona, and tho propoood mode of
levying it, the income tax was by far the lesser evil of the
two. (Hoar.) Again, the right hon. gentleman told the
house that the tax was to relieve them of a great burden of
indirect taxation ; but he (the right hon. baronet) disputed
altogether the wisdom of attempting to got off a portion of
their indirect taxation—however desirable that might be—
by imposing a new tax that was open to such grave, seri-
ous, and, he humbly thought, insuperable objections.
(Hear.) But could they vindicate the proposed tax on the
ground which had been so often taken, of the anomaly that
at present existed ? In his opinion they could not. (Hear.)
The right hon. gentleman had dwelt strongly upon that,
which was indeed the strongest part of his case, the differ-
ence between settled and unsettled personalty; but he (Sir
J. Pakington) was prepared to resist the proposal of
the Government most distinctly upon that very ground.
The right hon. gentleman said that the present legacy duty
was so extremely unfair that something must be done or
they must be prepared to repeal it altogether. He (the
right hon. baronet) was quite ready to accept that alter-
native, and to say that it would be better to repeal the
legacy duty at once than to levy the tax proposed to be
imposed under the provisions of this bill. (Hear, hear.)
The argument of the right hon. gentleman might be thus
stated :—" The legacy duty is so unfair in its operation
and so unequal in its pressure, that I, as a minister, cannot
leave it as it is, and therefore I will make it worse."
(Hear, hear.) If they must impose tho tax upon settled
personalty, the ought not in fairness and justice to make it
prospective ' • otherwise they would be passing an ex post
facto law. But what was the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer's answer to that ? Why, ho treated this, a question
of principle, entirely as one of expediency. Ho said he
could not consent to such a proposal, because the tax would
not accrue for fifty years—in other words, his answer was
that he could not afford to be just. (Cheers.) But the
real question was not one of anomaly as between settled
and unsettled property, but as between personalty, and, to
use the right hon. gentleman's own phrase, rateable pro-
perty ; for let him here remind the house that this was not
a question solely affecting land. No doubt the bill would
act upon the landed interests in an oppressive manner ;
INDIA. but there were other interests to whom it would apply
uite as much. There was, h a aththe cou
Lord STANLEY gave notice that on the second read- and who were readyowever,
to adopts n any course iry
u
ing of the India Bill he shou'd move as an amend- order to aim a blow at the aristocratic institutions of this
ment, " That it is the opinion of th'.s house that further country, and at the property by which those institutions
information is necesrary to enable Parliament to legis were supported. (Hear, hear.) He was sorry to see any
late with advantage for the permanent government of government, under the necassities of their position, lend-
India, and that at this late period of the session it ing themselves to further the objects of that party ; but
would be inexpedient to proceed with a measure which, the cry which had been raised in favour of the proposal
while it disturbs existing arrangements, cannot be con- adopted by the right hon. gentleman was as delusivo as it
sidered as a final arrangement. (Cheers.) was unwise and unjust. The owner of every small house,
the manufacturer who possessed a factory, and the mer-
THE TURKISH QUESTION. chant who was the propnetor of a warehouse, were all as
In reply to Mr. LAYARD deeply concerned in the bill as the landed interests ; for
Lord J. RUSSELL said the announcement in the they all held rateable property, and would all be liable to
Moniteur as to the dispatch of the English and French the tax. (Hear, hear.) This was a tax upon the younger
fleets to the Dardanelles was perfectly correct, and children of families, and upon unmarried daughters at the
that orders had been given to the effect stated in that moment of the!r domestic affliction. When they were de-
rived of the comforts of the parental home,
.and were
de-
paper. He could not state whether any account had yet P
been received of the English fleet having left Malta, thrown upon
their
ap:dttrere,elit nee texeretterezeir3le woulder.
of the French fleet having proceeded to the Dardanelles. come upon capital,
Lion. In a word, he need only refer them to the strikingi'
In reply to Mr. DISRAELI, expression of one to whose authority the noble earl oppo-
site ought to be the first to bow. The late Earl Grey,
tish ambassador at Constantinople, giving him power to when a member of that house, and when in 1805 Mr. Pitt
call for the Britislifieet :and likewise directions had been proposed to extend the legacy duties to descendants in the
sent to the British Admiral at Malta to proceed to the direct line, said, with equal truth and force, that be could
Dardanelles. "only designate the measure as a tax upon misfortune."
In reply to a further question from the right hon. (Cheers.) He had said, and this was the argument of the
gentleman,
hon. member for Lambeth (Mr. W. Williams), that the
Lord J. RUSSELL said, speaking from memory, he chief ground upon which the bill was supported was the
alleged anomaly of taxing personalty, while rateable pro-
thought the dispatches to Lord Stratford de Redcliffe
perty was exempt ; but was it a less anomaly that per-
were sent on the 31st of May, and the instructions to
sonal property should be excused from otiier taxes to which
the British admiral at Malta on the 2d instant. rateable property was alone called upon to contribute ?
COURT OF ROME. (Loud cheers.) Did they not recollect that in times gone
Mr. BOWYER wished to ask Lord John Russell by—times that he hoped would comfeonatn t—hina!rhie.
whether her Majesty's Government intended, in con- days when theealretcgo te c
y raised the luawesstiwonasof their pecuTiar
tinuation of the papers on the relations of foreign Go-. bctutierei se s;
comments with the Court of Rome, to lay before this railed what was the answer they received? Why,
that they had not to pay the legacy duty, and that was an
house the documents regarding the late creation of a
equivalent. (Hear, hear.) The landed interests were the
Roman Catholic hierarchy in Holland, victims of not one or two, but several anomalies, that corn-
Lord J. RUSSELL said there was no intention on pletely countervailed the alleged anomaly of their exemp-
the part of the Government to lay those papers on the tion from legacy duty. They had to pay poor rates, and
table, but if the hon. gentleman would move for them, for stamps upon conveyances, with many other similar
these would be no objection to produce them. charge, which personal property escaped. He knew it
Mr. BOWYER gave notice that on an early day he had been said
they had that theybough oughtt th not to say anything g about
would move for their production. rates, because estates subjtthem,
but he altogether refused to concur in such an argument.
CLARE ELECTION.
They might just as well say, if by any ill fortune this bill
Captain KNOX wished to ask the Secretary at War
should pass, that they had no right to complain, because
whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern- they had bought their property liable to succession duty,
ment to take measures to secure from injury and insult or any other duty they might think proper to impose.
the troops who will be in attendance on the civil power (Hear, hear.) The Chancellor of thoehEureetqtu:arthtad can-
athe land
the coming election for the county of Clare ; or didedly admittedinhis speech upon th
whether soldiers are to be sent on this
.difficult. duty, was liable to " peculiar and exceptional bgurilens. Now,
with the knowledge that they are to submit either to be what was the amount of those burdens ? The right hon.
ntleman had stated the annual value of the rateable pro-
murdered, or tried for murder, should they defend their
gpeerty of this country at 80,000,0001. ; and he had also his
own lives and those of persons placed under their charge?
authority for estimating the burdens upon the land at
Mr. S. HERBERT said the question was couched in
14,000,000/. or 15,000,0001. a year. He ventured, how-
terms which he could not have expected from a member
ever, to add•to the right hon. gentleman's figures charges
of the house and a soldier—(hear)—but with regard to for fire insurances, stamps, and other items, which rates-
the first question, he had no doubt that the military au- blo property did pay, and which would raise the annual
thority in Ireland would take care that sufficient troops taxation upon rateable property to 17,500,0001. or there-
were sent to protect themselves as well as to perfoi in abouts, which was about 22 per cent. And now what was
the duties that would be required of them. With re- the amount of the income derived from personal property,
gard to the second question, all that lie could state was He shrunk from naming the sum ; but the total amount
been made in the law, which was of taxation (exclusive of
vt4liste
4ininCoo:te.......otfapex,rBwonhialch:oolArtftcly
that no change had
n al) file
altogether omitted as being equal in both 04880_44 total
well understood by the military.
three only or four millions. (Hear.) How,
taxes
trathiseloddretuiat
Captain KNOX. would only state, in answer to the
eatienveerunnant be justified in imposing this
first remark of the right hon. gentleman, that the other vglla
day he mentioned the question to him, and the right additional tax
hon. gentleman said he should have no objection to re-
(Cheers.) Another reason why of an 411 e gad anomaly?
ply to it. (Hear.) eason he °ppm% the bill was
the excessive inequality of the tax. (Br This
Mr. S. HERBERT—It was true he paid that he should mut had been urged in Ino 1 "full argil.
and was v true now,

110IISE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY. )
The SPEAKER took the chair st five minutes to four
o'clock.

- ----_.
NEW, WRIT.
On the motion of an Roil. MEMBER, a new writ was
ordered to be issued for the shire of Edinburgh, in the
room of Sir J. Hope, deceased.

WILTS, SOMERSET, AND DORSET RAILWAY,
Mr. CARDWELL brought up the report of the gene-
ral committee on railways, recommending that the peti-
tion of inhabitants of Wilts, Somerset, and Dorset, and
of proprietors of land, complaining of the non-execution
of certain lines of railway authorised to be constructed
under the acts of the Great Western and Bristol and
Exeter Railway Companies, and praying for redress
.(presented 25th February last), be referred to the com-
mittee on group NN, to whom the Devon and Dorset
Railway Bill stands referred.
In reply to Sir T. D. ACLAND,
Mr. CARDWELL said the committee thought the
case was one in which the rules of locus standi ought to
be altered, in order to allow the parties to be heard be-
fore the committee.

Mr. HILDYARD moved that the petitions be re•
ferred to the committee, in accordance with the recom
mendations of the report.