The Sun.
London, England, 1854-06-09 00:00:00

LONDON, PRIDAIt EVENI

ITUE Spri

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.)
MINISTER OF WAR.
On the motion for going into committee of supply,
Lord J. RUSSELL rose and said—Sir, in moving that
you leave the chair, I will give an answer to the question
which the honourable member for Montrose addressed to
mu before the recess with respect to the administration of
the affairs of the army, I imagine that there are two
questions upon this subject which engage the attention of
the house—the one is the question of giving more imme-
diate vigour and efficiency to the war department, and the
other relates to the arrangements to be made respecting
the administration of all the variousdepartments connected
with military affairs. Now, sir, with regard to the first
point, namely, the more efficient administration of mili-
tary affairs instime of war—it is, I think to be collected
from the general feeling, and it is the opinion of her Ma-
jesty's Government, that a Minister having the charge of
the Colonial departnaenti bearing in mind the manner in
which the business of that department has increased
since the last war, is both physically and morally unable
to give the affairs of the war department that great amount
of attention, time, and labour which those affairs in time
of war absolutely require. (Hear, hear.) It is, therefore
the opinion of her Majesty's Government that the affairs
of the War Department, instead of being united to the ad-
ministration of the Colonies, as they at present are,should
be separated from it. The next question regards the ad-
ministration of the various departments which are con-
nected with military affairs. The house is aware that
these departments are several in number, and it knows,
likewise, that one of the principal Secretaries of State, as
Secretary of State for the War Department, takes the
Queen's pleasure with respect to the amount of
forces to be kept up for the year—takes the Queen's
pleasure, also, with regard to any considerable aug-
mentation to be made, and generally takes from her Ma-
jesty by those directions which the military affairs of this
country are regulated. The Secretary at War administers
the financial affairs of the army ; the Board of Ordnance
has, in the first place, the management of the artillery and
the engineers, but it has likewise various other duties to
perform which from time to time have been added to it;
the commissariat is a department by itself, and its duties
are well known ; and there are vario'ss other departments
which are more or less concerned in the military affairs of
the country. Now, air, in the year 1831.-32 there 'was a
committee of the Government appointed, of which the
Duke of Richmond was the head, and of which I had the
honour' of being a member, and that committee was of
opinion that there should be a general board, which should
have the affairs of the army under its control, but divided
inteAlifferetit apartments—one to lodge the army, another
to clothe the army, a third to feed the army, a fourth to
furnish arms; and so on. Somewhat later a commission
was appointed, of which Earl Grey, who was then Secre-
tary of War, was the head, and of which, also, I had the
hdeour of being a member, and that commission was of
opinion-Lat le-ast, Earl Grey suggested, and the members
of the commission concurred in the recommendation—that
there should be greater concentration of departments, and
that the Secretary at War should exercise many of the
functions which are now discharged by the Secretary of
State. The plan which I have first mentioned did not
meet with the approbation, if I recollect right, of Earl
Grey, who was then at the head of the Government, and
it certainly was not persevered in any farther. The second
plan was laid before the Duke of Wellington, who stated
to Lord Melbourne, the First Minister of the Crown,
such grave and, I think, such reasonable objections to
the placing in the hands of the Secretary at War a con-
trol which properly belonged to one of her Majesty's
Secretaries of State, that the plan likewise was not pro-
ceeded with.. Sir, under these circumstances, her Ma-
jesty's Government are of opinion that the best thing to be
done for the present would be to confine ouraelves.to the
change of making a separate Secretary of State for the War
Department, confiding to him a superintendence over all
those matters which fall under the administration of mili-
tary affairs in time of war. Having been a member of both
commissions, I have no hesitation in saying that I was not
at' all satisfied, after hearing the objections of Earl Grey
and the Duke of Wellington, that either of the proposed
plans would have ensured the efficient and complete work-
ing of all the vat ions departments connected with military
affairs in this country. But a Secretary of State would
have these departments under his immediate superinten-
dence. He would have the control of the whole, of them,
and could say from time to time what improvements ought
to be introduced, and could either introduce these improve-
medts'singly, or prepare some plan to be afterwards sub-
mitted to the consideration of the Government as a more
general reform of the various military departments. This,
I think, is all that it would be advisable at the present
moment to attempt. To introduce greater changes—to
derange and put into a state of confusion all those various
departments at a time when we have but lately entered
into a war—would, in my opinion, be a very rash and
dangerous undertaking. I have been told, with respect to
the most beneficial change which was made by my right
honourable friend the present First Lord of the Admiralty,
when he abolished the Navy Board more than twenty
years ago, that it took upwards of two years before that
alteration could be made so as to ensure the harmonious
working of the new system. If that bo so, it is obvious
you cannot adopt in the first instance an entire plan, with-
out the risk of producing probably a great deal more con-
fusion than at the present time, instead of ensuring that
harmony and unity which are so much desired. There
are certain principles which I think should guide
us with respect to this subject. It is easy to say
" Unite the various departments." But while there is
the greatest benefit in having one head which can control
departments and branches of the same kind of service,
there very often will be great disadvantage in uniting in
one department what ought to be divided amongst several..
The progress which has been made in society in general
has been a progress made, not by uniting, but by separat-
ing different mechanical arts and manufactures which in
early times were united together. Is it not the same with
regard to the immediate suoject under our notice? If we
were to desire the infantry to do the work of the cavalry,
and the cavalry to be as complete as the artillery, that,
evidently, instead of improvement, would rather produce
disorganisation, and prevent the efficient working of those
different branches. At the same time, everybody sees that
it is unfit that the commander of the cavalry should have
a separate command, or that the commander of the artillery
should have his own mode of conducting operations, and
that it is desirable all should be under one head and one
commander. With respect to certain things unity is de-
sirable. With respect to others, separation i- the best way
of attaining that end. It appears to the Government better
to allow the Secretary of State, who is placed at the head
of this department to consider from time to time what is
the best arrangement, and how improvements can be in-
troduced. It certainly appears that there are defects,
which have been pointed out by my honourable friend the
member for Montrose; and by others, in the other as well
as in this house, and no doubt very considerable improve-
ments can be made. (Hear, hear.) There is one change,
however, which I must say I do not think we can consider
in the light of an improvement—that the patronage exer-
cised by the Commander-in-Chief, without political consi-
derations should be abolished. (Hear.) I do not think that
would be likely to give satisfaction to the public. It seems
to me far better that the patronage should continue to be
exercised as for a long series of years it has been and is now
exercised, having regard to the benefit of the army, totally
apart from any considerations of which party is in power
or in opposition. (Hear, hear.) These are the only re-
marks which I wish to make on this subject. It will not
be necessary to have recourse to Parliament for any bill to
separate the departments of war and the colonies. That
can bo effected nearly in the same manner as the Home
Department was separated from that of War and the
Colonies. There wilt be, of course, some increased ex-
penses ; but the establishment now found to be sufficient
for both departments will be nearly sufficient for them
when separated. An estimate will be proposed for defray-
ing the charges of the Secretary of State for the War De-
partment ; and the'Secretary of State for the War Depart-
ment, having his undivided attention given to the affairs
of that department—never more important than at the pre-
scut moment, or requiring more vigour and decision—will
be able to serve his country in the manner it deserves.
Mr. HUME was glee to find her Majesty's Government
had made a beginning, but hoped they would lay on the
table some more definite plan. He was one who agreed
with the noble lord in thinking that individuals should be
placed in a situation to perform separate duties, but united
at the same time under one command. He never contem-
plated altering the powers of the Commander-in-Chief with
respect to patronage. What he desired to see was one head
—a member of her Majesty's Government—who should have
the opportunity of being consulted upon all orders that were
given. Ho wished to see the artillery form part of the army,
and no longer be a strange body, unknown to the Comman-
der-in-Chief. He wished to .see men of experience ap-
pointed as aides-de-camp, to perform those most important
duties, instead of young men of two or three years' standing
in the army who were entirely incapable. The ar-
rangements he desired were arrangements which would not
weaken but give strength to all operations. Although ho
considered the Treasury ought to check and control all de-
partments, he thought it anomalous that the Treasury
should have the management of that most important of all
services in the field -the commissariat. There should also
be some]arrangement with regard to stores. He did not
wish to blame the Government, but while the manner in
which the artillery and troops had been conveyed to the
East was highly creditable to the country, it, was utterly
impossible there could be that efficiency which under a
proper system might have been obtained. He was not dis-
satisfied with what was now proposed, but ho wanted a
little more to be done, and the sooner it was done the
better. (Hear.) They did not know how long the war
would continue, and they ought to be prepared at all
points, for now that the country had entered upon war
they had a rigtst to expect operations would be conducted
with the greatest efficiency. Unless, therefore, the noble
lord laid upon the table a programme of what would be
united and what separated, so as to promote efficiency in
the different departments. it was impossible the house
would be satisfied or disposed to vote any money. He
wished to ask whether it was correct that orders had been
given for altering the clothing of the army, and whether
any arrangetnent had been made for separating the Ord-
nance Department from the artillery?
Mr. E. ELLICE said it would be very unfair to his noble
friend, who had announced this late change, if they were to
mingle with their congratulations any observations which
might seem to detract from the expediency of the measure
just announced. At the same time, lest general assent
might hereafter be taken to imply entire approval of that
measure, he must say for himself his noble friend's state-
ment had fallen far short of satisfying him with respect to
the arrangements which were about to take place. He
wished to correct one statement of his noble friend. He was
also a member of the commission of 1831, and neither he
nor Sir James Kemp concurred in the report which was
suede to the Government ; and he very much doubted whe-
ther his noble friend himself approved of it—at least, that
was his impression at the time. What was required with
respect to our military establishments was, that there
should be one head responsible to this house for the expen-
diture. He quite concurred with his noble friend in think-
ing that it was the last thing to be desired that any politi-
cal influence should be exercised with respect to the pa-
tronage of the army, and he should be very sorry to see
the discretion of the Commander-in-Chief interfered with
same
recommendationstime it had
were always
madeoc-
to the Crown should be in some respect under the advice
cbuyupeoclittiocahlimpalhtiaets
and control of • the Government of the day. There were
N; V ha at t et vheer
various questions about patronage and promotions in the
army, which should be entirely controlled by a Minister
responsible to this house for the expenditure of theat my.
He would not trouble the house with a history of the ano-
malies on this subject, such as the Secretary-at-War being
made responsible for departments over which he had no
control. What he submitted was, there should be one
superbatending authbrity to control the partici havitg the

management of different details. If it was intended that
the new Secretary of State should only be employed in
time of war, then, indeed, they would have made very
little progress in improving their military administration.
If it was intended to be a permanent office, not only to
transact all affairs connected with military operations, but
to conduct and he responsible for the whole military admi-
nistration of the country, thou he could see no reason why
that Secretary of St ate should not be responsible for the whole
administration, whether by the Master of the Ordnance, the
Commissary-General, the barrack-master, or the officer who

supplied the clothing. What he wanted was, all those parties
responsible to the Secretary of State, and the Secretary of
State responsible to the House of Commons, so that the
control of the House of Commons should be much greater

Over the military expenditure, for which they had to call
upon the people to submit to taxation. (Hear.) The com-
missariat was managed, as he thought, most improperly by
the Treasury. (Hear.) But in snaking that statement he
would guard himself from being supposed to think that
the banking part of the commissariat should not remain
with the Treasury. It was essential that the Treasury

should control the whole expenditure of the country in
every department, and in order to enable them to do that,
they must not be undertaking the expenditure in detail of
auy one department. What the house appeared to him to

deAre, what commissions had all agreed upon, what com-
mittees had always insisted upon, was that there should be
one authority, not to undertake the administration of the
various departments, but one authority to which all those
variom:s departments could report and refer, and who,
being the head of time military administration of the coun-
try, should be responsible to that house. (Hear.) He
quite agreed with the noble lord that they ought not to
act hastily, without duo caution, without due preparation.
If the secretary of State now appointed was to have the
power by degrees, as lie saw expedient for the benefit of
the public service, to bring into subjection to his own de-
partment such details of the administration as appeared to
him might be better managed under such control, then he
should be perfectly satisfied ; but if, on the other hand, it
was intended for carrying on operations during the war, to
appoint only a temporary officer (because he hoped they
might look -forward some time or other to the re-establish-
ment of peace), then he did not think the country would
be satisfied with this change. (Cheers.)
Mr. RICH observed that the Froposal of the noble lord
had met with such general assent that it would be unne-
cessary for him to move the resolution of which he had
given notice, declaring that the several departments for
the administration of the army required to be consolidated,
economised, and simplified. He knew no possible ground
why the commissariat should be connected with the Trea-
sury, and it was a notorious fact that it was the most ex-
pensive and ill-conducted of all the public departments.
He rejoiced at the change which the noble lord had inti-
mated, and which the house had so well received, and he
was prepared to give it every support.
Colonel DUNNE considered that much would depend
upon who was to be the Minister. (Hear, hear.) He
should wish him to be a military man, but he supposed a
Minister of the Crown who was also a member of the mi-

litary profession could not always be found. He did not
think the army had been sent to Turkey so efficiently as
the country had a right to expect, and the commissariat
was extremely faulty, and ho believed at the moment the
troops were moving on Varna they had no guns larger than
6-pounders, the heavy artillery having only just left Wool-

wich.
Mr. M. GIBSON asked whether the new Secretary of
State would sit in the House of Commons ?
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say that two Se-
cretaries of State would always sit in the House of Com-
mons, and that the Secretary of War would be competent
to sit there.
Mr. M. GIBSON—Is it to be understood that the new
Secretary of State is to sit in the house of Commons? (A
laugh, in which Lord John Russell joined, but made no
answer).
Mr. HumE rose, but
The SPEAKS said the hon. member had already
spoken,
Mr. HUME said it was a new question. He had spoken
on the order fur going into committee of supply being read,
but not on the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair.
(Calls of "Order.")
The SPEAKER said—According to rule, the order was
read by the clerk at the table, and no objection being made,
the noble lord moved that I now leave the chair, and on
that question the hon. member has spoken. (Hear.)
Mr. W. 'WILLIAMS regretted that his hon. friend had
not had an opportunity of addressing the house, as he be-
lieved it had been his intention to have moved that these
estimatea be referred to a select committee. The increase
which hail taken plale in their amount within the last few
years was a matter which deserved the serious considora-

tion of the house.
The question was then put and agreed to, and tho house
went into committee, Mr. Bouverie in the chair.

SUPPLY.
On the motion that a sum of 135,8631. be granted to her
Majesty to defray the expenses of the royal palaces and
public buildings,
Mr. WISE inquired whether the painting of the
eathoande
work of the cast front of Buckingham Palace, which
certainly disfigured it extremely, had been rendered neces-
sary by the decayed state of the steno.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said a great number of public
buildings had suffered from the wet and frost of the last
season. Buckingham Palace was amongst the number ;
and in order to preserve the stone work it had been found
necessary to paint it.
Mr. HWIE considered this no answer to the question.
When public money was voted, it was the duty of some
department to see that it was properly expended, and that
proper materials were used. When the new Houses of
Parliament were to be built, an inquiry had been instituted
into the relative durability and costs of different descrip-
tions of stone, and it had been ascertained that stone from
Normandy, such as that of which Henry Vll.'s Chapel
was built, and the capability of which to stand the weather
had been amply tested, could be got at as cheap a rate as
any in England.
Lord SEYMOUR bore testimony to the immense diffi-
culty of procuring such atone as would stand the London
atmosphere. There was scarcely a stone building in the
metropolis which had not had to be renewed, and when he
was at the Board of Works, and the question of enlarging
Buckingham Palace was under consideration, he had been
assured by the scientific and practical men whom he had
consulted that the only way of obtaining a stone which
which would resist the influence of the atmosphere was to
have a competent authority at the quarry to examine and
mark every stone, and to allow no stone to be used which
had not the mark of that authority upon it.
Mr. WILLIAMS saw that the vote included a sum of
2,0001., for replacing the present decayed farm buildings
in Windsor-park. He presumed that these were the buildings
in the occupation of his Royal Highness Prince Albert ;
and he thought that if his royal highness paid neither
rent nor taxes, the cost of keeping such buildings in repair
ought not to be paid by the public. He objected also to
the public being charged as they were in these estimates,
with the expenses of the offices and st iff of the ecclesiasti-
cal and tithe commissions. Such charges were most unjust,
considering the immense property of the Church.
Mr. WILSON said his Royal Highness Prince Albert
paid for the farms which he occupied the same rent as
would be charged to any ordinary tenant, and the amount
of that rent was carried to the public credit. His royal
highness, it was well known, was a great improver, and had
carried " high farming" to a point of great perfection ;
but whenever he had proposed substantial or permanent
improvements, and those improvements had been carried
out, they had been paid for in the same way as they
would have been in any other case, one half by the
Crown, as landlord, and the other half by his royal high-
ness, as tenant. (Hear, hear.) He thought that, upon
the whole, they were rather more strict in dealing with his
royal highness, than they were with an ordinary tenant.
With reference to the other observations which the honour.
able gentleman had made, ho could only say that if com-
missions were appointed for important public purposes,
they must be provided with offices, and those offices must
be furnished.
Mr. SPOONER inquired what was the number of acres
which his Royal Highness Prince Albert occupied, and in
respect of which this 2,0001. was to be expended
Lord SEYMOUR, said, as the arrangement with his
Royal Highness was made when he was at the Board of
Works, he might perhaps be permitted to explain that,
with respect to the farms which Prince Albert occupied
and farmed, he w.B treated in precisely the same way as
any ordinary tenant of the Crown . but that with respect
to the dairy farm, that was considered an appendage to
the castle, which ought as much to be kept up us the
kitchen or any other part of her Majesty's establishment.
(Hear, hear.) He imagined that this 2,0001. was required
in order to care y out a plan which was in contemplation
when he was in office, for putting the buildings on the
dairy farm into suitable condition. Their state was cer-
tainly not such as any nobleman would like the buildings
on his own dairy farm to be in.
Sir W. MOLES WORTH assented to the accuracy of
Lord Seymour's explanation, and said that this sum of
2,000/. which was now asked for was required for the
purpose of completing the new farm buildings on the dairy
farm.
Mr. SPOONER quite agreed with the noble lord that
the dairy farm was an appendage to the castle, and had no
objection whatever to its being made as perfect as possible,
but the explanation just offered differed very materially
from that which had been before given by the Secretary
of the Treasury.
Mr. WILSON said the explanation was this. Improve-
ments on the dairy farm were paid for wholly by the
public; on the other farms his Royal Highness paid ono-
, half, as any other tenant would do, and the public paid
the other.
Mr. HUME advocated the reference of the estimates to
a select committee as the only effectual means of bringir g
them into a satisfactory state. However, taking this vote
as it was, he found a charge of 5951. for the military
knights' houses at Windsor Castle, although it was stated
that there were several thousand pounds which ought to
be applicable to that purpose ; a charge of 4,9641. for lia-
bilities incurred under the act 11 and 12 Victoria, for im-
proving the approaches to the castle and town of Windsor,
although no less a sum than 85,000/. had been paid by two
railway companies, which ought to be available for car-
rying into effect the provisions of that act ; charges for the
British Museum and for the Royal Mint, although there
was a separate vote for each to be afterwards proposed ;
and no less than 20,158/. fur the rent of houses occupied as
public offices, although there was a piece of ground in
Downing-street which had remained unoccupied for years,
and upon which, with other property adjoining, for which
au estimate had been obtained, he believed that buildings
might have been erected at a very moderate expense, ac-
cording to a plan which had been laid upon the table of
the house, and all the different departments of public
business have been brought together under one roof.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH explained that of the 4,9641,
proposed to be paid in discharge of liabilities at Windsor,
the first vote of 2,661/. was mainly for professional services
performed antecedently to the passing of the act ; the other
sum of 2,010/. was required to put the roads in proper
order before the charge of obtaining them could be trans-
fermi to the respective parishes, and, he believed, would he
the last sum that would be asked for that purpose. Ho
quite agreed with his hon. friend that the private houses
which were rented by the Government and used as public
offices were unfit places for the purpose, and that great
advantage would result from bringing the different de-
partments together into one suitable building. Ho had
caused plans to be prepared, and (so we understood) should
be happy to propose that they should be acted on, if he
could prevail upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer to
sanction the necessary expenditure.
Lord SEYMOUR thought, as the expense, of the Post-
office and Custom-house establishments were for the future
to be the subject of vote, it would have been well if the
amounts required by those establishments for the repair of
their public buildings had been included in the present
vote. He had heard with great pleasure the opinion ex-
pressed by his right hon. friend against the occupation of
private houses as public offices, for he felt that such
places were not only most inconvenient, but that they in-
volved the employment of a large number of persons as
messengers and doorkeepers, and in other subordinate ca-
pacities, whose services might easily be dispensed with, if
the various public offices were grouped together and