The Sun.
London, England, 1854-03-03 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONIYON, FRIDIAYI-EVENING, MARCH 3, 1854.

IMPERIAL PARLIA ME NT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

The Duke of ARGYLL presented a petition from
Paisley in favour of a system of national education in
._

Ireland.

The Earl of CLANCARTY complained of the Go
vernment having only placed two Irish Peers on the
committee which the Irish land bills were referred ; and

gave notice that to-morrow he would move the addition
of Lords Desart, Glengall, Castlemaine, and Court.

MILITIA. IN SCOTLAND.
In reply to a NOBLE PEER,
The Earl of ABERDEEN said what he stated the
other evening was, that it was not intended to call out
the militia in Ireland this year. On the contrary, how-
ever, it was proposed in the present year to embody the
Scotch militia

COUNTY COURT EXTENSION ACT EXPLANA-
TION BILL.
Lord BROUGHAM—My lords, in rising to ask
your lordships to give a third reading to this bill, I feel
still more occasion than my noble and learned friend
(the Lord Chancellor) did the other evening to ask your
indulgence, on introducing a subject so comparatively
trifling in itself, and, in the interest which it is likely to
excite so immeasureably less material, as that to which
I am about to direct your lordships' attention—namely,
a declaratory bill for the amendment of the law respect-
ing the jurisdiction of the county courts. Not, my
lords, that I grudge—God forbid—in the slightest de-
gree, the absorbed attention of the community, as well
as of Parliament, on the great events which are now, I
mach fear I must say, impending over the rest of Europe
as well as this country. I have been long anxious, my
lords, to disbelieve that it was possible that such a cala-
mity as war should disturb the peace of the world. I
have long struggled against that belief, in spite of all the
too manifest indications that appear of my being wrong.
But, my lords, as men and women most readily believe
what they wish, so they most reluctantly give their assent
to what they most dread, most detest, and most abhor.
My lords, I could not conceive it possible that they—l
purposely use a very vague and indefinite expression—that
they who have hitherto stood forward as the patrons of
order, the friends of peaceful institutions in Europe, and
the guardians of arrangements by which that peace
seemed to be secured—that they should, as we now find
there is but too much reason to believe, to the grief of
mankind, to the astonishment still more than the grief,
and to the indignation still more than the astonishment
of the world—that they, I say, should have became, all
at once, the disturbers of the public peace and the abet-
tors of wide-spreading insurrection and confusion ; and
if it is not wide-spreading, it is owing, first of all, to that
happy alliance between the two great Western Powers
which Providence, educing good from evil, half been
pleased to bestow upon us ; and next to the wise and
firm, and I trust it will continue wise and firm, conduct
of the German Powers, which, even more than the rest
of Europe, have an interest in staying that great Ca-
lamity—(hear, hear)—and which I hope and trust will
show that they are acting according to their best inte-
rests, and in the discharge of their highest duties.
(Cheers.) My lords, the dlay that has taken place I
deem most fortunate for the world, I deem it not only
justifiable on the part of my noble friends opposite (the
members of the Government), but praiseworthy in every
sense of the word—for it is in that reluctance, which I
share with them, as well as that disbelief of apparent
impossibilities, that this delay has had its origin ; and it
has produced, in my clear and decided opinion, none but
the best and happiest results. (Cheers.) My lords, I
ought to apologise for stepping aside from the compa-
ratively insignificant proposition which I am now about
to make to you ; but I have not before had an oppor-
tunity of expressing my opinions and my feelings on this
subject • and I have had occasion to know that that si-
lence of! mine, which has not been voluntary, has been
elsewhere misconstrued. (Cheers.) The noble lord,
adverting to the bill, the third reading of which he had
risen to move, proceeded to say that the important
measure relating to the county courts, to which their
lordships gave their sanction some few years ago, had
been found to be attended with misapprehension on the
part of some as to the intentions of the Legislature in
one respect. At all events an error had been committed
in framing the measure ; and it was absolutely necessary
that the error should be rectified. In 1833 a bill was
first introduced into the other house of Parliament for
the establishment of county courts, but subsequently re-
jected. A bill was also brought forward on the same
subject in their lordship's house, and after being referred
to the Common-law Commissioners, was in 1833 carried
to almost its last stage. He and his noble and learned
friend (Lord Lyndhurst), though differing with respect
to some of the provisions of that bill, agreed that the
best course would be to read it a second time, which
was done after a good deal of discussion, and then to
refer it to a committee, by whom the whole provisions
would be thoroughly examined ; then, the bill being re-
duced to a state in which it might be fit to pass, that
the discussion on its merits should be taken on the third
reading. Notwithstanding, however, all their efforts to
make that bill as perfect as possible, it did not
pass into a law. Now, in that bill there was
a very important clause, which provided that all ques-
tions, among others, touching tolls, franchises, bank-
ruptcy, and other cases not coming under the descrip-
,on of debt or contract, as well as questions of tort,
_ _ _

should be excluded from the jurisdiction of the loca
court, unless by consent—being confined to the amoun
of so many pounds in cases of debt, and so many pounds
iu cases of tort. But then there was this important
clause, called "the optional clause," that, if both parties
chose to have their cases tried, whatever might be the
amount of the claim for debt or damages, and also if
they chose to have one of the excluded actions tried—
for instance, an ejectment, or a question relating to
tolls, franchises, or bankruptcy—in all those cases, by
consent, the jurisdiction of the local court should be to
the extent to which the parties agreed, notwithstanding
the limitation of jurisdiction by a previous clause, to
which he had adverted. The County Courts Bill, to his
great regret, left out a very considerable portion of the
bill of 1833 ; and among other provisions "the optional
clause" was unfortunately omitted. In settling the bill
of 1850, for extending the jurisdiction of the county
courts, it was deemed a good opportunity for introducing
the " optional clause ;" and from the bill of 1833 the
"optional clause" was copied and inserted in the bill of
1850 ; but in inscribing that clause the proper conse-
quential change was not made in "the appeal clause,"
and the consequence was, that whereas by the bill of
1833 an appeal was given in any case whatever, the bill
of 1850, instead of saying the appeal would lie in any
case in which a party was dissatisfied with the judgment
of the county court, said " in any case where jurisdiction
was given by this act" meaning theact of 1850." Now ithad
been held by a competent tribunal that, in certain
cases) jurisdiction was not given by the act of Parlia-
ment, but by the consent of the parties. He (Lord
Brougham) contended, on the contrary, that it was by
the act alone that jurisdiction was given, though the
ground on which that jurisdiction was given was the
parties' consent. The consequence was, however, that
the appeal was construed to be confined to cases of
debt, contract, or tort, but did not apply to ejectments,
tolls, franchises, bankruptcy, and the like ; and it was
to provide a remedy fur that defect th.at he had pre-
pared the bill the third reading of which he now moved.
There could not be the slightest doubt that the mistake
arose from inadvertency in copying the clause out of the
bill of 1833 without making the corresponding conse-
quential alteration in the appeal clause. He begged
their lordships' pardon for engaging their attention so
long, but he could assure them that no small import-
ence was attached to the change he proposed by the bill,
for the reason that the fact of there beiug no appeal in
certain cases tended to restrict, rather than extend, the
resort to the county court. He ought to add that that
resort was at present already materially restricted by the
great fees attached to the practice in the county courts,
which were in many crises much larger than those in the
superior courts. He hoped the attention of the County
Court Commissioners would be withdrawn to the neces-
sity of making a diminution in the expense of resorting
to those most useful and admirable tribunals, and so
remove what was at present the only obstacle to their
complete success. (Hear, hear.)
Lord CAMPBELL, after suggesting certain verbal
amendments in the preamble, expressed his concurrence
in the object of the bill.
Lord BROUGHAM at once adopted the suggestions;
and the bill, as amended, was read a third time and
passed.

of troops to the Baltic. He could not help observing
that he thought the Government ought to have sent
some troops to the Baltic before they despatched so
large a body to the East. He admitted that if the avail-
able portion of our fleet were to be joined to the squa-
dron which had lately been formed by the Emperor of
ik 3 French, the combined navalforce in the Baltic would

be amply sufficient to guard against any hostilities in
that quarter. But without that French reinforcement
. ..

he was not aware that there was sufficient naval force

ready for that service. However gratified he might
be to see a French fleet acting in conjunction with
our own, it was not satisfactory to think that Eng-
land must depend upon the assistance of France to

produce a fleet superior to that of Russia in the Baltic ;
that was, in fact, to defend our own shores—for without

a fleet in the Baltic any of our ports were liable to disas•
ters like that of Sinope. He regretted much to see so
large a detachment of Brllsh tcoops sent to so great a
distance, when it was probable that their presence might
be required much nearer home. The true place for Eng-
land to look to was the Baltic, not the Black Sea. Who

could say that there would not within the next three
weeks be a demand for troops in the Baltic? Sweden

might ask for assistance, for it was known that both
Sweden and Denmark were preparing for war. And
when wanted our troops would be in Turkey. It might
possibly occur to that distinguished admiral—as great a
man on shore as on board—Sir Charles Napier, that it
would be extremely desirable, and add to the success of

the naval operations in which he might be engaged, if
England were to occupy some of the islands in the Bal-
tic now occupied by the Russians. But we should have
no troops for the purpose. He (Lord Ellenborough) felt
satisfied if England had 20,000 available for the Baltic,
and that fact were known to be so, it would have more
effect upon Russia than the detachment sent to the East.

The house might depend upon this, that it was in the
Bahia that the essential battle would be fought, and that
a force in the Baltic would have a far greater influence
on Russia than 20,000 troops posted in the neighbour-
hood of Constantinople. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl
then asked what were the intentions of her Majesty's

Government with respect to calling out the militia this
year, and with respect to the corps either not formed or
much below their complement, and concluded by moving
for an account of the expense and force of the militia in
continuation of the account ordered to be printed 15th

August, 1853.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said that with respect to
that portion of the noble earl's observations which had
reference to the length of time during which the militia
were drilled, he had to state that although the Govern-
ment did not intend to enlarge that period to the extent

advocated by the noble earl, it was intended to enlarge
it from 21 to 28 days. Of coerce there could be no ob-
jection to the return asked by the noble earl. When,

jhowever, the noble earl complained of the number of men
who were not yet enrolled as compared with the num-
. , .

ber possible to be enrolled-80,000—he (the Duke of
Newcastle) would call his attention to the number re-
turned as enrolled on the Ist of Jan. last, which was

66,29, as compared with the number enrolled the pre-
ceding year, which was 51;560. When the noble earl
stated the necessity of having recourse to more decisive
means of obtaining the complement of men for the militia
he (the Duke of Newcastle) begged to remark that he
thought this was not a moment when Ministers ought
to allow themselves to be driven to measures in any de-
.

gree of a penal character. (Cheers.) There was a noble
and most patriotic spirit evinced throughout the whole
country, both with respect to military and naval service ;
it would be making a most ungrateful return if her Ma-
jesty's Government were to take meaures for compelling
the people to do that which, without compulsion, they
were ready and willing to do. When the numbers
which he had already quoted were compared, and it
was rememberei that at the beginning of the year
the spirit of the country was not so roused as at
present, he must express his opinion that there was no
reason whatever to complain of the number of men en-
rollea. The noble earl (Ellenborough) had referred to
the nine regiment in West Yorkshire, and two in Lan-
cashire, the complements of which were not fully made
up ; now, it was due to those districts to state that a
vast number of men had enlisted from them. Indeed,
when the, extraordinary demand for labour which had
existed for some time in these districts, and the unex-
ampled rate of wages which employers had been paying
were considered, there was great cause for astonishment
and congratulation in the number of men who had been
obtained there. With regard to what the noble earl had
thrown out respecting the permanent embodiment of the
militia, he (the Duke of Newcastle) was not prepared to
say that Government might not find such a measure ex-
pedient, but he had no hesitation in saying that at pre-
sent Ministers did not think that the time had yet ar-
rived when it was necessary to put the whole country to
the serious inconvenience which would be caused by the
permanently embodying the militia force. When the
time did arrive, he thought the country would not object
to the inconvenience which might attend such a step.
(Hear, hear.) In replying to another portion of the
speech of the noble earl, he (the Duke of Newcastle) felt
at a great disadvantage, and with regard to that portion
he did not propose to follow him into the statement
which he had made. (Hear, hear.) He was fully aware
of the attention which the noble earl had given to the
question of the position of this country with regard to
Russia and Turkey, and he was therefore not surprised
that his noble friend should thus on successive nights
bring forward the subject. But he would submit to the
noble earl and to the house the practical inconvenience,
not to her Majesty's Government personally, but to
the Government in reference to the conduct of negotia-
tions—which must arise from these discussions. It was,
indeed, impossible to feel that the intimations of the
noble earl, as to what the country might or might not
do, were at all calculated to raise the sense of the ability
of this nation in other places. He regretted that the
noble earl had stated again his impression that the fleet
to be sent to the Baltic was insufficient for its purpose.
He did not know from what source the noble earl ob-
tained his information. He (the Duke of Newcastle)
believed, and his belief was founded on the reports of
competent authorities upon the matter, that the force
was perfectly efficient, and adequate to the end in view.
The noble earl objected to the quantity of troops sent
to the East. He was quite sure that, had fewer men
been sent out, the noble earl would have been among
those who would have complained that the dignity of
the country suffered from the inadequate force sent to
Turkey. He (the Duke of Newcastle) begged to tell his
noble friend he was under a mistake in supposing that,
should it be found necessary to take any of the steps to
which he had adverted, there were not sufficient troops
for that purpose. He could assure the house that, should
any portion of the course pointed out by the noble earl
be considered by the Government desirable to be fol-
lowed out, there were, notwithstanding the forces sent to
the Mediterranean, troops sufficient for that purpose, and
that there remained in this country men who would gladly
serve in any part of the glo be, eitheor north or south, where
the interest and honour of the nation might require them.
(Cheers.) The noble earl must forgive him (the Duke of
Newcastle) if he declined to follow him in more detail than
he had done, for he felt it his duty to preserve silence
upon the matter. With regard to the noble earl's mo-
tion, he was willing to give him all the information
asked for.
Lord BEAUMONT said that the noble earl (Ellen-
borough) had fallen into error through the manner in
which the returns were made up with regard to the regi-
ments to be raised in the West Riding, the complements
of which were not made up. Three of these regiments
were old ones, and there was no shortness of men with
regard to them, men corning in at the rate of 50 a day.
Three other regiments were new, and there were various
formal matters to be settled before men could join them.
This accounted for the shortness in their complement.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH ventured to suggest
to her Majesty's Ministers, that it was at least more
straightforward and more honourable in a public man to
state his objections in lirnine to a course of policy about
to be adopted, and run the risk of all the censure which
might be brought upon him should his predictions fail,
than to wait until he saw the result of that policy, and
then be silent if it should succeed, or visit the ministry
with animadversions if it should fail. He had taken a
different course from this last. He had stated distinctly
to the house what his opinions were, and he thought
his noble friend at the head of the Government might
recollect that this was not the first time upon which he
had so expressed his opinions. He would only venture
to suggest now, that the true secret of success in war
was to leave nothing to fortune that could be rescued
from her domain by prudence and preparation. That
was the principle upon which his great monitor invari-
ably acted—that was the great principle on which in all
the operations which he (Lord Ellenborough) had been
called upon to undertake he had acted—it was attention
to that which had invariably led him to success when he
had been successful, it was inattention to it that had
been the cause of all the failures he had experienced.
The Earl of HARDWICKE thought that at a moment
like this it was impossible and impolitic to expect that
members of that house should not express their, opinion
upon the grave facts by which they were surrounded.
He thought that none of their lordships would be worthy
of the position in which they were placed if they hesi-
tated upon so important a subject. He gave the Go-
vernment every credit for the exertions they were
making ; but as he would not deceive himself with re-
gard to the views he might hold, so he would not deceive
others by refraining from expressing his views when
necessary. With regard to the fleet intended for the
Baltic, he thought it would require all the talent and
energy of his gallant friend at its head to bring it to a
state fit to cope with the fleet of Russia, the vessels of
which had been acting togther for no less than 13 years,
and were therefore in a high state of discipline and
efficiency. Our fleet, on the contrary, was composed of
ships new to each other ; manned not with efficient
seamen, but with men from the coast guard and lands-

men.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA said it was totally im-
possible that in the maritime marine of this country there
should not be sailors enough to man all her Majesty's
ships. He was convinced that in the hour of danger,
the spirit which had always characterised the British
nation would again show itself. He deeply regretted
that a quarrel between the Latin and the Greek Church
should have been the original cause of war, which was
likely to be attended with such awful consequences. He
perfectly agreed with the noble earl who spoke the other
evening (Earl Grey) that this country could not be ex-
pected to become a party to the oppressions exercised by
Turkey over her Christian population ; and he thought
there would be an entire change of !public feeling if the
people of England found that such was likely to be the
result. A population of eleven million Christians must
no longer be subjected to barbarities by three millions
of the dominant race. For his own part he had long
wished to see the establishment of a free and enlightened
Christian empire. He feared that in a short time the
whole of the East would be involved in a religious war,
of which n wan nouid On probable

and he must preface it with a brief statement. In the
fourth year of his late Majesty, and in the 7th and Bth
of her present Majesty, temporary acts were passed,
authorising her Majesty to remove the destitute poor of
Ireland, Scotland, and the Channel Islands who might
happen to be in England to their respective countries
when they became chargeable to the parish. They were
passed to meet a pressing emergency, and it was because
their injustice was acknowledged that they were made
temporary. He begged, then, to ask her Majesty's
Government whether they intended to propose the repeal
of the act of Parliament which authorised the removal
of Irish paupers found in England to their native coun-
t
try
The Earl of ABERDEEN—My lords, I am quite
ready to admit that the state of the law connected with
the removal of Irish paupers is very imperfect and defec-
tive, and requires much revision by the Legislature ;
bat it is impossible to repeal the law at the present mo-
ment. In the other house of Parliament an hon. gen-
tleman has moved for the correspondence which has
taken place between the board of guardians and the
Poor-law Board on this subject. That motion has been
affreed to, and the information, when it has been pro-
duced, will be laid on the table of your lordship's house.
I think this information is quite indispensable before we
can venture to proceed 0 legislate on the subject, and
I think, also, that it will be deemed expedient to refer it
to a committee of this or of the other House of Parlia-
ment—or, perhaps, of both. At present, I can say no
more than that I fully admit that the state of the law
requires revision and alteration, and that as soon as the
ma,terids are in our possession for that purpose, it will
receive the attention of the Government.
Earl FITZWILLIAM had had somelexperience of the
evils complained of by the noble earl (Donoughmore),
and hoped a remedy would soon be provided.
The Earl of WICKLOW must say that he was dis-
appointed at the noble earl's answer. The injustice to
Ireland was great already, but if the bill introduced in
the other house should pass, and the law with regard to
Irish paupers remains in force, the grivance would be
palpably enormous.
The Earl of DERBY felt that the question of the
general law of removal and that of the removal of Irish
paupers were inseparably blended, and that it was im-
possible to legislate on the one without considering the
other. He would ask the noble earl at the head of the
Government whether he intended to lay on the table
the correspondence with. regard to the removal of Irish
paupers, and to propose that it should be referred to a
committee before there was any legislation on the gene-
ral question of the removal of paupers. He thought the
practical difficulties arising out of the abolition of the
law of settlement in this country in connexion with the
removal of Irish paupers was an essential element in any
legislation on the subject ; and he agreed with the noble
earl opposite (Wicklow) that to abolish the general power
of removal as regarded this country, and at the same
time to snake an exception with regard to Irish paupers,
would be an injustice and Hardship that would produce
well-founded dissatisfaction. He hoped that in altering
the law the Government would be prepared to look upon
the question in its bearing on the three kingdoms.
Lord MONTEAGLE, while concurring with the
noble earl who had just sat down in the tone of his re-
marks, thought inquiry with regard to Irish paupers
should precede legislation. In England the present
state of the law was erroneously considered a protection
against the influx of Irish paupers. Paradoxical as it
might sound, he had no hesitation in saying that it sti-
mulated that influx. Many Irish labourers, atter re-
mitting their earnings to their own country, availed
themselves of the present state of the law to return there
at the expense of English ratepayers. That law was at
once an encouragement to the fraudulent and a hardship
to the deserving.
The Earl of DE3BY had ventured to ask the noble
earl (Aberdeen) whether it was the intention of the Go-
vernment to proceed with the bill which they had intro-
duced before instituting an inquiry.
The Earl of ABERDEEN—It certainly is the inten-
tion of her Majesty's: Government to proceed with the
bill now before Parliament.
A NOBLE Loin—. Before inquiry?
The Earl of ABERDEEN—Yes.
THE NAVY LIST.

The Earl of HATRDIVICKE wished to inquire of her
Mrjesty's Government whether the commissioners who
were to be appointel to inquire into the state of the army
list were to extend their inquiry to the state of the navy
list ? There were two lists of admirals, one called the
" active list," the other the "reserved list." On the
active list there wao, perhaps, the largest number of in-
active officers ever known ; on the reserved list there
were many very acfdve officers who were perfectly ca-
pable of doing their duty, and he thought it desirable
that the whole subject should be inquired into. He had
no doubt that the noble earl at the head of the Govern-
ment bad come down to the house prepared to answer
his question either in the negative or the affirmative ;
but if he meant to answer in the negative, he would
rather he gave no answer at all.
The Earl of ABERDEEN—I am afraid that not-
withstanding the recommendation of the noble earl, I
must communicate the answer of the Government in the
negative. I must say that her Majesty's Government,
though they have appointed a commission to inquire
into the rules of promotion observed in the military ser-
vice, have not thought it necessary to adopt the same
course with respect to the navy, and for this reason, that
this very subject has occupied the attention of various
commissions and committees, and Boards of Admiralty,
over and over again, very recently, and therefore there
is not the slightest occasion for any fresh revision. I can
only say that after the most full and mature inquiry, it
has been considered that the system now in force is the
best. The noble earl will recollect that her Majesty has
power to set aside the rules of seniority, and to select
any officer she pleases for the service, and with that ex-
ception, I repeat, that after consideration by several suc-
ceeding Boards of Admiralty and commissions appointed
for the purpose, there is no reason to institute any fresh
inquiry on the subject of the navy list like that proposed
by the noble earl.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Mr. GEACII rose to move that the 178th standing
order be suspended, with reference to the Liverpool Im-
provement Bill ; and that the several petitions of mer-
chants, manufacturers, and traders, resident in Birming-
ham, of the directors of the Chambers of Commerce, &c.
of Manchester, and of the Manchester Commercial As-
sociation, which have been presented against the said
bill, be referred to the committee appointed to consider
such bill.
Mr. W. PATTEN said the petitions referred to had
not been lodged within the prescribed time—seven days
of the second reading ; and he should strongly recom-
mend the house not to agree to the hon. member's motion.
Mr. TIORSFALL said if the house were inclined to
stand by the existing standing orders, he should not
press it ; but he begged to say that every required no-
tice had been given, both through the local newspapers
and the London Gazette.
Mr. GEACH then, after some further remarks, with-
drew his motion.
SECOND READINGS.
The following bills wera read a second time :—The
Caledonian and Edinburgh and Glasgow Railways —the
Dukinfield Gas.