The Sun.
London, England, 1854-03-25 00:00:00

members represent beyond the embodied wish of some hun-
dred needy men to obtain place, salary, and position ?"
That is your statement.
Mr. Moore—No ; it is a question.
3lr. Moore—But it is a question implying an opinion, I
presume. Do you deny that it was intended to express an
opinion in the form of an interrogatory ?
Mr. Morris—l must repeat that lam not in a position to
explain the article in any way whatever ; and I must de-
cidedly refuse to do so.
Mr. Moore—But in the form of an interrogatory does not
that passage occur?
Mr. Morris—That sentence does occur in the article, but,
as you say, it is a question and not a statement; and I would
direct your attention to another part of the article in which
the Irish members are challenged to answer the question for
themselves.
Mr. Moore—Have you taken the trouble to find that there
are Irish members who have always held a high position, and
who, if paid, have certainly not voted for their pay ?
Mr. Morris—I am.not prepared to answer that question.
Mr. Moore—Have you heard any statements, or are you
aware of any facts that are calulated to warrant you in stat-
ing that all the Irish members are paid, and all vote for their
Pay ?
Mr. Morris—l could, of course, if the committee thought
my individual opinion was of any value, state it ; but I
would suggest that such opinion would be of no value what-
ever to the committee; and, as representing the Times on
this occasion, I must repeat, what I have said already so
often, that I am not prepared to answer any questions what-
ever concerning that article, or concerning any article, nor to
attempt to justify it.
The last question was ordered to be read to the witness.
The shorthand writer read it accordingly :--Have you heard
any statements, or are you aware of any facts which are cal-
culated to warrant you in stating that all the Irish members
are paid, and that they all vote for their pay ?

Mr. Morris—l must' decline to answer that question. It is
not consistent with my duty, as far as I understand it, to
answer the question.
Mr. Moore—The question is, are you aware of any facts ?
Mr. Morris—That question is put to me as representing the
Times newspaper, and I cannot disclose the information upon
which the conductors act, and of which I happen to be cog-
nisant in consequence of my position in the office.
Mr. Moore—And is it the custom at the Times office, and
is it a fair specimen of the scruple and care and consideration
the Times is in the habit of observing in bringing grave
charges against public—
Mr. Butt (to the Chairman)—Sir, I object to that question.
Mr. Moore (to the witness)—Well, but if it were a private
individual, instead of a public journal, who had made this
accusation, do you not think he would in that case be called
upon to state upon what grounds, opinion, or authority he
made such a statement ?

Mr. Butt—Sir, I object to that question.
Mr. Moore—l insist on putting that question.
Mr. Morris—l decline to answer it.

Mr. Moore—Then, I have no further questions to put.
Mr. Bright—Mr. Morris, you appear here as representing
the Times, and speak with information and authority-

Mr. Morris—With iuformatiou, but without authority,

Mr. Bright—But with information and authority upon all
matters on which you are permitted to speak at all ?
Ar. Morris—l wish to make no statement on authority.

Mr. Bright—You state that three days before the article of
the 19th of September appeared there was published in the
Times a letter, without the n 1-11. e of the writer appended to
it, to which that article referred, and on which that article
was to some extent based. Is that the fact ?
Mr. Morris—lt is.

Mr. Bright—ls it the custom at the Times Office to insert
letters, especially letters making charges, without being in
possession of the name of the writer, or some authority ?
Mr. Morris —Certainly not. The Times publishes no letter
of which it does not know, or believe it knows, the writer.
Mr. Bright—Yes ; I believe there is a public statement
made to that effoct—a regular notice that appears in the paper
always ; but we have had before us here the editor of a Lou-
don paper (the hon. gentleman referred to the editor of the
Standard), who, when questioned on this subject, replied
that the newspapers pretended to publish only authenticated
letters, but that, in fact, they did publish letters of the
writers of which they knew nothing whatever.

Mr. Morris—That is certainly not the case with regard to
the Ti;”,C,S.

Mr. Bright—Was there any specific statement made in the
letter to which you refer, or was it merely general in its alle -
gations, as we often see in matters of the sort ?
Mr. Morris—The letter is before you ; perhaps you had
better refer to it.

Mr. Bright—You have read that letter, and are able to
state whether there is any specific fact stated in it.
Mr. Morris—l think not ; that is to say, no fact which can
be separated from an expression of opinion. It is very diffi-
cult to separate facts from opinions.
Mr. Bright—lf that latter were before the committee, would
it enable us to prosecute the investigation with which we are
charged ?
Mr. Morris—l do not think I quite understand your ques-
tion.

Mr. Bright—lf the letter referred to any particular case of
corruption, with such circumstances as to indicate the parties
who are alleged to be the delinquents, would it not enable
the committee to prosecute the object of the inquiry with
which they are charged ?
Mr. Morris—You mean, I presume, by obtaining the evi-
dence of the person who wrote the letter ?
Mr. Bright Certainly. If that were the case, would you
be able to lay before the committee the manuscript copy of
that letter ?

Mr. Morris--I should certainly not be able to lay before the
committee the manuscript copy of that letter.
Mr. Bright —ls it not the case that the originals of com-
munications are preserved at the Times office ?
Mr. Morris—Not always.
Mr. Bright—And you are not aware whether this particular
letter is preserved ?

Mr. Morris —I am aware.
Mr. Bright—That it is ?
Mr. Morris—That it is, or that it is not. I cannot answer
that question, but I cannot deny that I know the fact.
Mr. Bright—But the letter by itself would not further the
objects of the inquiry?
Mr. Morris—l think not.
Mr. Brght —The Times circulates some enormous number,
I believe. By a recent Parliamentary return it shows some-
thing like 40,000 a day ?
Mr. Morris lam not prepared to make any statement as
to the circulation at this time. I believe the Parliamentary
return snows about that number.

Mr. Bright—Then, you are not prepared to lay before the
committee any fact whatever on which the conductors of the
Times undertook to circulate through 40,000 copies of their
journal in one day so grave and insulting a charge, not against
one individual only, but against the whole body of Irish re-
presentatives?

Mr. Morris—When I say I am not prepared to do it, I do
not wish it to be understood that it would not be possible,
but simply that I do not think it consistent with my duty to
do it.

Mr. Bright—Would you lead the committee to infer that you
could give us information affecting 100 needy men, leaving
only five of the whole representatives of the Irish people ?
Mr. Morris—That question is not easy for me to answer,
except in an indirect manner, and perhaps this is the proper
time for me to state the reason why I have refused to answer
any questions involving what I consider the secrets of the
paper. With all respect to the committee, I submit that the
question here involved is the independence of the press. I
think that the press of this country—there being no censorship
established by law—is amenable to no authority whatever
except that of the courts of law, and that not even a com-
mittee of the House of Commons has a right to question the
conductors of the paper as regards the opinions they have ex-
pressed, and that there is no tribunal except the courts of
justice which can compel them to do so; I think I should
sacrifice the interests of the Times, and do a grievous injury
to the press of this country if I answered the question.
Mr. Bright—Read my question to the witness.
The question was then read by the shorthand writer as fol-
lows :
" Would you lead the committee to infer that you could
give us information affecting 100 needy men, leaving only
five of the whole representatives of the Irish people ?"
Mr. Morris - I c tnnot answer that question directly, as I
said before.
Mr. Bright—What I. mean is this : Is the committee to un-
derstand that in the charge contained in that article nobody
supposes you meant that 100 Irish members were to corrupt
—that the statement was not to be taken as numerically cor-
rect ? There were some charges of corruption, and you be-
lieve in some, but we are not to understand that you believe
that 100 members are corrupt ?
Mr. Morris—My answer to that question is that I can not
state to the committee what I believe.
Mr. Butt—Would you extend your idea of the privileges of
the press to facts as well As to opinions ?
Mr. Morris—To everything whatever.
Mr. Butt—Then if a specific and positive fact was stated in
the Times with reference to the inquiry we are now entered
on, you mean that we could not ask you for the information
on which it was founded ?
Mr. Morris—lt would be a matter entirely for the conside-
ration of the conductors of the paper whether they would
answer it. If they thought the question could be answered
without involving the interests of the press, they would pro-
bably answer it. _ _

Mr, Butt—Have you read the article of September, and does
it not appear to you that it is a statement of opinion rather
than a statement of facts ?

Mr. Morris--Individually, that is my opinion.

Mr. Butt—Now, as to the article of February; asking your
opinion in the same way, it is to some extent a statement of
information also, and to that extent it is information for
which the journal is not responsible?
Mr. Morris—That is quite true, provided the inference be
not drawn that the two facts mentioned by Dr. Gray were the
only grounds upon which the opinions of the Times were ex-
pressed. Ido not wish that inference to be drawn.
Mr. Butt—Then you do not say anything one way or the
other as to what information the Timis may or may not have ?
Mr. Morris—l make no statement whatever upon the sub-
ject.
Mr. Butt—Then your statement is not meant to convey to
us either a positive or a negative assertion as to what other
information the Times may have I I ask you because I
thought you meant to say that there was other information at
the Times office.
Mr. Morris—l wish it to be clearly understood that I make
no statement on the subject.
Mr. Macartney—ls it not the invariable rule at the Times
office, that they do not, and never did, publish a letter with-
out knowing the parties, or believing they knew them ?
Mr. Morris—l cannot answer a question put so generally.
I can only speak as to the custom of the office. Unquestion-
ably that is the rule which, to the best of my knowledge, is
always observed.
Mr. Bright - You remember a remarkable discussion about
an annonymous letter being published at one time ?
Mr. Morris —That is the very reason why I wish to guard
myself against answering the question in the general terms in
which it has been put. _ _

Mr. Butt —lf the Letters of Junius came to you, you would
very probably be glad to print them ?

Mr. Morris—l am afraid not now.

Colonel Bentinck—As manager of the Times you admit, I
suppose, that charges of gross corruption have been brought
in your journal against the body of Irish members ?
Mr. Morris—l admit nothing more than what appears in
the paper.
Colonel Bentinck—lu your capacity of manager you are not
prepared to offer any explanations or justification of the
charges brought in the Times against the Irish members ?
Mr. Morris—l am not.
Colonel Bentinck—Then, is this an exceptional case, or is
It the practice at the Times office to publish grave charges
without being prepared to bring forward any proofs in sup-
port of them 7
Mr. Morris—l am not prepared to answer that question.
Colonel Bentinck—Then I suppose I may assume that you
are unable to deny that it is so ?
Mr. m •
--°rrits—That is an inference which you, as an individual
may draw, but I presume the committee is too just to draw it.
3frcommittee.l,iontios_quNe sot i; o riloyroausptember ?
Mr. Butt—l understand you do not admit the right of the
asto ththattheofarFteicbliemoafryS.
Mr. Butt—That is a grave public
public question.
Mr. Morris—l wish simply to record my protest on that
question.
No mem'lcr having any more questions to put, Mr. Morris
then bowed to the committee and withdrew.
Mr. Patrick Fattrell, solicitor, and Qeruou, barrister,