The Sun.
London, England, 1853-06-01 00:00:00

they talk of a Constitution in Ireland when they were dis
cussing the monstrous iniquity of the Established Church
there, and when inquiry into this despotism was-refused?
Lord J. RUSSELL.—In rising to state as shortly as I
can my reasons for voting against this motion, I find it a
great facility in performing that task that the hon. mem-
ber for Meath (Mr. Lucas) had perfectly kept his word to
the house ; that he has frankly stated his opinions ; and
that those opinions may be dealt with instead of the mo-
tion of the hon. gentleman (Mr. G. H. Moore), or the
speech in which it was introduced. Laying aside every
question with regard to inquiry into a number of circum-
stances that are sufficiently known already—(hear)--or
which, if not sufficiently known, may be learned in the
library by consulting the returns presented to Parliament
on the subject—laying aside every question of such sort
of inquiry, or the results which are to be pointed out
before the select committee, the hon. gentleman does not
conceal that this is a motion aimed directly at the aboli-
tion of the Irish Church. (Hear, hear.) The object may
be a good and praiseworthy one, but at all events, in the
speech of the hon. gentleman, it is not a concealed one ;
and that, therefore, is the motion with which we have to
deal. (Hear.) Now, sir, before I deal with that motion
at all, let me say that I think the hon. gentleman in his
statement of the condition to which he says the Irish peo-
ple are reduced by the existence of that Church goes far,
very far indeed, beyond and beside the question. The
hon. gentleman says that the Roman Catholics are in a
state of social and political degradation. (Hear, hear.)
Now, sir, that statement I entirely deny. I do not
allow there is any political degradation, because, with
very few exceptions indeed, every political honour, every
political distinction, is open to Roman Catholics as it
is to Protestants. (Hear, hear.) The seats in this house
have been opened ; the highest honours of the State, with
one or two exceptions, may be obtained by Roman Catho-
lics. Neither is there, as matters at present stand, any
social inequality of which Roman Catholics have to com-
plain. Those inequalities which formerly were, we admit,
attended with degradation, have been removed in later
years. The hon. gentleman finds fault with those Roman
Catholics of former times who expressed their gratitude
for the relaxations made by Parliament in favour of
Roman Catholics. I own I have been accustomed rather
to admire than to blame the fervent zeal and loyalty with
which, even in the worst of times, Roman Catholics came
forward to defend this land, knowing they were debarred
from its honours and offices, and the renerosity with which,
in any period of peril, they were apt to stand forward to
declare their loyalty to the Crown and their attachment to
the country to which they belonged, and not merely by
words, but by gallant deeds in arms, to prove that loyalty
and attachment. (Hear, hear.) It may have been a
fault, but if so, the hon. gentleman need not be afraid of
it; for, instead of an exuberance of gratitude, the greatest
concessions made by Parliament, the largest admissions
to our offices and seats in Parliament have been met by
revilings and reproaches—(hear, hear)— which rather
seem to show that some, at least, of the Roman Catholics
of t he present day wish to prove how much they differ from
their ancestors, and that they wish to make up for that
exuberance of loyalty and attachment to their country.
(Cheers.) My belief, however, is that the hon. gentleman,
and those who have spoken with him to-night, while they
represent some of those who carry to an extreme the poli-
tical doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, do not
represent the great body of the Roman Catholic people—
(hear, hear)—and my right hon. friend the Secretary for
Ireland has been misrepresented as saying that, indeed it
might be desirable to enter into some inquiry upon'this
subject if there was a great pressure and agitation upon
it. The meaning of my right hon. friend I believe was, that
if the intelligence of the Roman Catholic body in Ireland
in general,—if the intellectual part of the community in
England as well as in Ireland generally—complained of a
grievance, there would be more cause for inquiry than at
present it can be pretended there is. But having treated
of those political and social inequalities of which the hon.
gentleman complained, I will now come to that which I
admit exists—that to which the motion of to-night relates
—namely, the ecclesiastical inequality that exists in Ire-
land. It is not a religious inequality, because, with re-
spect to religion, the exercise of religious worship is as free
to the Roman Catholic as to the Protestant; but, as re-
gards ecclesiastical revenues, there is no doubt a state of
law in Ireland by which the endowments of the state are
given to the minority, and the majority of the peopleshare
none of the benefits Qf these revenues. (Hear, hear.) For
my own part 'I could wish, in treating of this question,
that the honourable gentleman and those who think with
him were entirely free from some of those bars and restric-
tions which have been imposed upon them in the debate
of this night ; for my part I could wish that there
was nothing in the oaths taken by members of Par-
liament which should preclude Roman Catholics from
discussing subjects of this kind—from asking, if they
thought proper, for the total abolition of the Established.
Church of Ireland, and voting for its subversal and sup-
pression as a political question as freely as they could vote
upon any other question. (Hear.) For my part I thought
these were matters that ought freely to be debated in Par-
liament, and I am exceedingly sorry any oath taken at
this table should stand in the way of any such discussion.
(Hear, hear.) I think likewise that that argument with
respect to the union of Ireland—though, no doubt, it is a
matter for consideration—should not be pushed too far
in an argument on this subject. My honourable friend the
member for the University of Oxford says there is a com-
pact between the, two nations. I think that, although
you entered into that agreement, if it be clear that the
great body of the people of Ireland, if the intelligence and
wishes of the people were in favour of a change in that
respect, there is nothing in the Act of Union itself which
should prevent your making a change in favour of the
people of Ireland in respect to an article which was in-
tended for the benefit of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) So much
for those considerations which might prevent us from
coming to a fair argument and a fair decision upon this
question. But I may say further, that, for my own part,
I do not wish to hear any of those inquiries which the
hon. and learned gentleman opposite alluded to with
respect to any relations which may subsist between Ro-
man Catholics and the head of their church in a foreign
country. I am satisfied that Roman Catholics should
have and enjoy all the privileges they at present enjoy, and
all the funds or endowments granted, whether by Parlia-
ment or otherwise, should be maintained to them • and for
my own part I do not wish at all to interfere with the freest
liberty and enjoyment by them of all the advantages they
possess ; and when I say this, I do not say anything ex-
ceedingly liberal ; but I am saying more than any Roman
Catholic could say with regard to Protestant endowments.
(Hear, hear.) But when we come to this practical question,
whether or not we should make some very great change
with respect to the Established Church in Ireland, I must
own that, with respect to that great subject, the experi-
ence we have had of late years should not be lost upon us.
It has not been lost upon me with reference to this ques-
tion. (Hear, hear.) I thought some years ago it would
be of great advantage, that it would tend to peace and
concord, if a part of the revenues now given to the Estab-
lished Church of Ireland had been applied to purposes of
education in which persons of all religions denomina-
tions might have participated • but I found in the course
of the discussions, both in Parliament and in the country,
neither side was willing to consent to such a compromise,
and, while ono side steadily and honestly resisted all
that spoliation, as they considered it, of the property
of the Established Church, the other required the total
abolition of the revenues of that church. I was obliged,
therefore, to consider which course Parliament should
take ; how it could remedy that which was alleged as a
grievance ' • and I am sorry to think, that while I cannot
hold that the present state of things is, in its apparent
arrangement, satisfactory, I see the greatest difficulties—
the greatest objections. More than that, I see no small
peril in the alterations that have been proposed. The hon.
gentleman who spoke last, as I understood him, said, " Let
us have equality ; whatever mode you please to take to
attain that, I shall be content with it, provided it is equa-
lity." There are only two modes obviously in which eccle-
siastical equality—for that is the important question—
can be attained. The one is the total abolition of the
revenues of the Established Church of Ireland. lam not
prepared to take that course. (Hear, hear.) I never
shall be willing to consent to the total abolition of the
revenues of the Established Church of Ireland. (Hear.)
Putting aside the great change it would make—the viola-
, tion of engagements it would make—setting aside these
matters—l cannot but think that you could not abolish
the revenues of the Established Church of Ireland without
striking at' the root of ecclesiastical endowments and vio-
lating the great principle upon which all our endowments
are founded. (Hear, hear.) That may be a wrong prin-
ciple—l mean the principle of ecclesiastical endowments •
but it is one that I am in favour of, which has been hitherto
maintained by the Parliament of this country, and I can-
not believe that you could abolish it in Ireland without
leading in other parts of the United Kingdom to a similar
abolition. (Hear, hear.) Then let us consider whether
we can make a new distribution of the revenues at present
of the Established Church according to number; and di-
viding them according to number you would give by far
the greater part of those revenues to the Roman Catholic
Church. In so doing you would be acting according to
principle—according to the principle you have adopted in
other cases, as the late Mr. O'Connell frequently put the
contrast before us,—as you have the Presbyterian religion
in Scotland, so you would have the Roman Catholic
religion endowed in Ireland. If the Roman Catholic
Church resembled the Presbyterian Church in Scotland,
although it would not be just that the Roman Catholics
should have, as the Presbyterians in Scotland have,
a national church entirely devoted to them, yet I can
imagine that a large endowment should be given to the
Roman Catholic Church ; but, unfortunately, ecclesiastical
equality would not be thereby increased. It has been evi-
dent of late years, that the Roman Catholic clergy—looking
to its proceeding in foreign countries—looking to its pro-
ceedings in this country—looking to that church, acting
under the direction of its head, himself a foreign Sovereign,
has aimed at politiCal power—(hear)—which appears to
ine to be at variance with a due attachment to the Crown
of this country—(hear, hear)—with a due attachment to
the general cause of liberty—(hear, hear)— with a due
ettacoment to the duties a subject of the State should per-
form towards it. (Hear, hear.) Now, as I wish to speak
with as notch frankness as the hon. gentleman who spoke
last, let me not be misunderstood in this house. lam far
from d.evying that there are many members of this house,
and many members of the Roman Catholic persuasion,
both in this country and in Ireland, who are attached to
the throne and to the liberties of this country ; but what
I am saying, and that of which I am convinced, is, that if
the Roman Catholic clergy had increased power given to
them, and if they, as ecclesiastics, were to exercise greater
control and greater political influence than they do now,
that power would not be mc.ercised in accordance with the
general freedom that prevails in this country—(loud
cheers)—and that neither in respect to political power nor
upon other subjects would they favour that general free-
dom of discussion, and that activity and energy of the
human mind that belongs to the spirit of the constitution
of this country- (Loud and general cheering.) I do not
think that in that respect they are upon a par with the
Presbyterians of Scotland. (Cheers.) The Presbyterians
of Scotland, the Wesleyans of this country—(cheers)—and
the Established Church of this country and of Scotland,
all no doubt exercise a certain influence over their congre-
gations ; but that influence which they thus exercise over
their congregations must be compatible with a certain
freedom of the mind—must be compatible with a certain
spirit of inquiry which the ministers of these churches do
not darn to overstep, and if they did overstep it, that in-
fluence would be destroyed. (Hear, hear.) lam obliged,
then, to conclude—most unwillingly to conclude, but most
decidedly—that the endowment of the Roman Catholic
religion in Ireland in the place of the endowment of the
Protestant Church in that country, in connexion with
the State, is not an object which the Parliament of this
country ought to adopt or to sanction. (Cheers.) Sir,
these opinions of mine may lead to conclusions unpalatable
to many who belong to the Rowan Catholic Church.