The Sun.
London, England, 1853-11-02 00:00:00

MR. DIGBY SEYMOUR, M.P., IN

SUNDERLAN.b.

On Monday week a crowded audience assembled at
'' • the Lyceum, Sunderland, to welcome Mr. Seymour,
and to hear from him a statement of the course he had
pursued on all the leading questions of last session.
Mr. SEYMOUR, who' was introduced to the meeting by
W. Mordey, Esq., in the course of a speech which ex-
tended to, considerable length, said—l come to a ques-
tion touching nearer home—Mr. Cardwell's bill for im-
proving the law relating to merchant shipping, and the
consolidation and improvement of our pilotage laws. I
particularly' refer to what is called the manning clause
in the Merchant Seamens' Act. lam very well aware
that the seamen of this port were a good deal excited,-
and were very naturally anxious about' the vote' which I
should give. with regard to this clause. But let me tell
my good friends this—that 'itis a little practical
argument, at all events, in my behalf, that Mr. Disraeli
in his celebrated speech, told. the House of Com-
mons that he intended to introduce a measure for
altering our present manning resolutions, allowing ship.
owners to man their ships with men from any part of the
world they pleased. Therefore observe this,—the seamen
of Sunderland were placed in this position, that if I, their
Liberal representative—their free trade representative,
• —if I were to vote in favour 'of Mr. Cardwell's bill, and
' they; were on that account to censure me, they could have
no hope from the opposite side of the house. There were
indeed two or three members of the house—Capt. Scabell
and others—who held an opinion different to the sense
of the house ; but it was afterwards proved that there
were not 50 men in the house who held the opinion
that the clause should remain as it then stood. So
the question stands. But I take it on higher grounds.
What do I hear ? The seamen of Sunderland afraid' of
competition—(applause)—•with the seamen of Germany,
Prussia, or the Baltic? The seamen of Sunderland
afraid of competition with the Yankee ! (Applause.)
With such an amount of strength, educational capabili-
ties, mentally and physically,• and afraid of competition
with any nation in the world! Was I to stand up and
argue this way in the House of Commons ? No ; I felt
. for the moment that, although my motives, may be mis-
taken, I felt a steady reliance and innate, confidence in
the strength of the position which the seamen occupied.
I knew that a very short experience would teach them
that with the growth of the mercantile marine must be
their growth—with. the prosperity of the shipowners
must be the prosperity of the men. If free trade has
repealed the navigation laws, and made shipping free to
competition all over the world, then let the physical and
mental energies of our seamen be free likewise, for if the
British oak can compete, the British sailor can compete
too. (Applause.) You have tried it—how are , your
wages now ? Why, I think, if Ibe not very inaccurately
informed, that never in the whole history of the 20 years'
peace, in the whole time since we last engaged in war ;
aye, since we engaged in the very heat of war, wages
have not ranged so high as now. (Applause,) A placard
was sent me, in the which was written, " Let equal
justice be done ; and if the seaman is to Compete with
the foreigner, let the coasting trade be thrown open."
I say, let it be thrown open. (Applause.) Certainly,
if the seamen ask for that, I •say, for my part, I am
prepared to give them my assistance. If the shipowners
tell me that they oppose the opening of the coasting
trade, I tell the shipowners that they are false to their
interests and the proper interests of their country.
(Applause.) Don't be afraid of it. If you have
competition, you are a match for it.. But don't be
afraid of competition, when they have to encounter your
rock-bound shore, and all the difficulties of your daily and
nightly voyages. Shipowners and seamen, as long as
they have their right hands, need not be afraid of the
Swede or the Yankee. (Applause.) Well, I certainly
did give my support to the manning clause, and 3 do,
trust that the seamen of this great port, seeing, the posi-
tion in which I stood, will
,agree that in arguing. for '
free trade in ships and land, I could not argue for pro-
tection for the men. (Cheers.)' There will be - ottier
questions in the next meeting of Parliament deeply
affecting the shipowners. My friend Mr. Simey has
lately called my attention to a case of cruel hardship in
reference to a vessel bound for Carthagena. The case I
have laid before the Foreign Secretary, whose attention
is to be called to it. There is a question of the consular
office abroad, and the exactions which I am afraid con-
suls too often inflict on our vessels ; consuls having
a premium on effecting desertions from, ships, be-
cause they get so much for every new man who takes
the place of a deserter. Sometimes the delay the ship-
owner also suffers is incalculable. I had a long con-
versation with my friend Mr. Joseph Hume upon these
grievances, and, with his support, I hope to bring
forward a measure, unless Government takes it' out 1
of my hands, connected with the complete remodell-
ing of our consular system—(loud applause)—also the
remodelling of our mercantile act, and the various rules
affecting shipowners. Reform was also wanted in our.
Admiralty courts, which for expenses and delays were
with habeas corpus ? and if habeas corpus is not enough
why not bring in a bill to amend habeas corpus ? (Ap-
plause.) After explaining the coarse he had pursued
on the church-rate and Maynooth question's, and the
Government of India Bill, he proceeded :—I will now
only say a few words on the question of our present
relations between this country and Turkey. (Hear,
hear.) You all remember the circumstances under
which the difficulties have arisen. There are in Jeru-
salem, as you are aware, certain places consecrated to
the memory of the past—to the memory of all ages—
since the time that our Lord offered up his life on Cal-
vary. These places are called Holy Places, and are
open to the inspection of Christians visiting Jerusalem.
The Emperor of Russia is, as he professes, the head of
the Greek Church. He has always claimed the right—
never disputed—of interfering by counsel, personal
patronage, and otherwise in the affairs of the Greek
church. At the Greek church in Jerusalem certain
disputes connected with the Greek church arose some
time ago, and a Minister was sent by Russia to the
Sultan requiring an explanation. The effect of that
mission was successful. But Russia had an object in
view concealed beneath her demands. It was not
enough for the great bear of the north to ask for the
morsel to be instantly given up, but with a bear's quali-
ties he felt dispoaed to have a bear's hug of Turkey.
Matters went on till, from a very simple claim to inter-
fere by counsel, be demanded to be considered the high
protector of the Greek Christians in all parts of the
Ottoman empire. It was all very well for the Sultan to
accede to a reasonable request of the Czar at the first,
but when the Emperor asked to be acknowledged as the
protector of the Christian subjects of the Ottoman
empire, no doubt the Sultan properly refused to
do it. The population of Turkey in Europe is about
15,000,000. Of this number not more than 700,000
are Oemanlis, or Turks properly so called ; 300.000 are
Mahommedans and of the remainder 11,300,000, the
greater portion are Christians belonging to the Greek
Church ; therefore Nicholas was demanding a religious
protectorate over the proportion of 11,300,000 to
4,700,000 of the inhabitants of the Ottoman empire.
The Czar finding his measures resisted, issued his
theatrical manifesto, in which he proposed to exact
from Turkey a "material guarantee" in the event of, his
demands being refused. Accordingly, when these de-
mands were refused, as they deserved to be, he—on one
pretext or another—proceeded to send his army across
the Pruth and invade the Danubian principalities. These
provinces consist of several : Servia, nearly independent.
MOldavia and Wallachia are governed by Pa
Hos od '
and formerly were tributary to Turkey, but now :ire
. subject to the joint protectorate of Russia and Turkey.
Russia having her claim refused, invaded these two pro-
vinces, and in doing so violated previous treaties, because
she entered the provinces as a hostile power, and with-
out the consent of Turkey. Now, what was to be done?
We had previously sent our fleets into ilesika Bay, and
we considered there were other reasons why we should
be interested in the result of the coming struggle. After
the act of invading the provinces, our ships were desired
to be in readiness to pass the Dardanelles. Now, what
happened in this state of things ? The intervention of
France and England was asked, but, instead of their
meeting in Paris or Londoh, or elsewhere, they fixed their
place of meeting at Vienna. Now you have seen the pic-
ture in Punch. You have seen the Emperor of Russia there
asking Austria to help him to finish the Porte. (Laughter.)
During the Hungarian war Austria was supported by
Russia, when Turkey, moved by a noble sympathy,
threw the shield of her isolated protection around the
valorous Kossuth. (Applause.) At that time Russia
and Austria were leagued together for the captives to be
delivered up, and well they may be leagued together
now. Well, the conference met at Vienna, and there
were present the ministers of England, France, Austria,
and Russia, to prepare a note ; but it was a remarkable
thing that the minister of Turkey was not taken into the
consultation. This is a question which will require
hereafter some explanation. The Russian minister, the,
plaintiff, was consulted ; Turkey, the defendant, was.not
consulted—that was not proper. (Laughter.) Well,
what was the result of it ? A note was drawn up, and
copies sent to. Russia mid Turkey. The Latter power
said, " I will not accept the note, because it leaves the
Claims of Russia still as strong as ever." Russia said he
would accept the note, because he found everything
granted in it that his ambition desired. Therefore, we
had,
that what one party wished the note not to have, it
and what the other party wished the note to have,
it had, without intending it. Hence arose the present
g '
embroilment and difficult
nature of our relations with
Russia and Turkey. The next step in the matter was
the meeting at Ohniitz ; however, between the meetings
alluded to, Count Nesselrode gave in writing ad inter-
pretatiop of the notuetof Vienna which was consistent'
with its language, b
opposed to its spirit. When
the Sultan found this to e the case, lie insisted upon•
the Principalities being evacuated.
Russia, seeing this, was The Emperor of
quite willing to accept the
original condition, only providing Turkey was not the
dictator of them, but doctored in pleasant way, so
that he might swallow the morsel:rayeTuurkey, however,
had discarded the note, and said— iii,iratlssutetiwiatiliiteliera.sy,
the armies which you have sent into the
at the same time stipulating fifteen days
to be allowed for completing that operation. ,e, period
do not withdraw your troops then," said Turks ' f 4 -'ll' LIVERPOOL, Nov. 1.
y, 66 w e •
shall cross the Danube and commence open war." (Ap STOCK EXCHANGE.—We have had an extremely dull and
plause.) It may be while we speak that the Danube. inactive market, and prices were :3 per cent. under those
and it may be that the sides of the of yesterday. Birkenhead, Lancashire, and Cheshire, lied.;
has been passed,
(Chester and Birkenhead), 174, ; Eastern Counties,
Danube are now being trampled down by the barbarous ditto
East Lancashire, 15ii : Lancashire and Yorkshire, 63
champions of the Cress, or the fanatic hosts of the Ore- 2s 3; London and North-Western, 10243 • Midland, 60 5 - •
scent. But one thing is quite clear to me that our posi. North British, 6i ; South Eastern and Dover, 17 9 i
; York
Lion is one requiring all the philosophy and anxious care and North Midland, 23i.
of the statesman and Christian. There are many things ;
which we must take into consideration, we must remain-,
virhSiTchOCias.l. E X
partlye rI'IINAGEN.."-riT hE
attributableeSrTe wasEßt
Nov.t
hnt London 11. larged
tbuuu ski nxe sxs
..,
e., let that we are this day groaning under the millions
ncloselbtldlady, and prices were rather lower
0 rich ' : squandered in shedding the blood of Conti- change
aln yesterday. e
London\ ,itioci;dl.o3 ; Miedlandi,96o 1
•
ILeornedwoua,sEighths, 7-10 a. ;
e,.,.,4 t. 1401 r„._, .04:.: ,we meus s twrem
gemfrboemr the
the pit;
life-blood
of 0
uorf,
tlfi.,t t.IIIII:gA, from the hard earnings of labour and
'Thl iso t- '4. hll •ye to support large naval and military
47: ,2 .. • i . ! ' iiV
--, '43 ' ... ;' - --- •.. -. erefore it becomes us deeply, carefull
(
3', in this market to-day, as regards
V•r:
..„,.' . •: Jr determine how peace can be maintained. transacted• with more freedom. London
itit must be war, then for how long we erns were done at 1031. ICl:lveeccOnii7alnsz
, ;Leeds
5 T-20r111
Nov. 1.
prises, improvement
a and business
si was
and North-West-
if
I;•ainttrcic,' nri 4;
. .....f, .. , . STOCK
Exotr
A Midland,
E BIRMINGHAM2. 3
T;
....._ ,

- _
often made great exertions— and put himself to much ex-
pense to attend to his parliamentary duties. (Cheeri).
Mr. J. MORRISON seconded the resolution, which was
carried with repeated bursts of applause.
Mr. SEYMOUR briefly thanked the meeting for the en-
thusiastic reception it had given him ; and after a few
congratulating remarks to the meeting from Mr. Thos.
Thompson on the happy event which they had that night
witnessed, and a vote of thanks to the chairman, the
meeting separated.

RAILWAY SHARE MARKETS.

as
ta dalelnecvoeuuntts7
m. Iu
sat mt
eo nper
eosfe
rtvheods e; whhuot 1
thinki)tol is at pt
opnena ct eh, n
there is a point short of which I would not preserve,
and that is the event of a stigma or stain being cast on
omurr. nationCobdenal
hh
ao
sn opuur
t.
f(oAr pwpalradu se. ) I know
one
test t 0 thatm
applyy
tf friend
end
the
Turkish question, that was the test of self-interest. Now,
I must be ill instructed in politics if I were to subscribe
to the notion that by the self-interest of the country I
merely mean the question of £. s., d., and do not mean the
national character for honesty and manhood. Butlet us for
one moment contemplate the question ofself-interest--con-
alder' it iii that light. What is the trade with Russia ?
It was, 300,0001. more, four or five years ago, than it is
• now: The trade only reaches a mere margin over a
million. Our exports to Russia were on the average of
1840 and 1841, 1,605,000/. - in 1846 and 1847, 1,785,000/. ;
1-and in 1850 and • 1851, 1,372,0001. Whereas the pro-
I gressive advance of our exports to the Turkish demi-
i nions, during the same period, from 1840 to 1851. las
1 been from 1,440,5921. in 1840, to 3,548,2591. in 1851,i
thus showing our trade with Turkey to be three times
' wthiatht wouitrheßxpuossritas
;toanßdusifsiaweaucdomiartoriatheeorsahmineedt,rawdee
1 aggregate of trades.
i will find thattihteaslemostdoub(lLesouind anipnpoluanutset.)ieTchoemrebfi.onreed,
. for at all events to consider whether we
question us
on the question of self-interest, it becomesa serious
instead(A pp
hot
uf
se.)
N interferingc)w,
isuhotihiledegonaitnestb,yiffoaludyin
should
our
1 it is said that Turkey is a barbarous power, that the
n rarms,
arise.
laws of polygamy are there, that the Koran is there, and
that in the whole of the Government there are the very
principles of a nation's dissolution. Now, I have taken
some pains to look into the question. I would be un-
worthy of the position which I hold, if I could sit with
my arms folded, and sleep the sleep of the sluggird,
when questions affecting your trade were at issue. But
looking at the question, I must say that Turkey, instead
of being in a dying position, appears to me to have
taken new birth elate. I find there perfect toleration
given to Christians of every sect, an approximation even
in the arms of the soldiers to the European system.
I find her regiments commanded by European, offi-
cers. I find in Omar Pacha that the Turks are not
bigotted in their choice of a commander-in-chief. I
find in Turkey all the elements of a power which by
careful management and by the 'sympathetic advice of
other countries, and by her own innate strength, may
yet set at nought the calumnies and misrepresentations
-of her opponents. Should Russia be allowed to take
possession of Turkey, look at your maps and books of
geography, and tell me what will be the landmarks of
continental Europe. Why a boy would tell you that
Europe would be bounded on the one side by the ocean,
and on the other by Russia and if these should be the
boundaries what becomes of your trade in the Levant ?
What becomes of your command in Egypt, and your
highway to the East Indies ? What becomes of your
shipping if Russia commanded the port of Constantinople,
and told you that unless you acceded to certain condi-
tions your British vessels would not be allowed to do
business there, and what becomes of your self-interest
then ? (Applause.) Queen Catherine, that great Em-
press of Russia, wrote upon one of the gates of her con-
quered cities- -I hope not in prophecy—" This is the.
shortest route to Constantinople. There is no doubt
it has been the chosen idea of the Russian monarchs
from that time to this to get possession of Constanti-
nople. Suppose we kept quiet—what then ? Would
Russia let Turkey be quiet ? No. We might be at
peace for a time, but if Russia possessed Constantinople
the day of battle would only be postponed, for Russia
having got that city, would next demand a control over
Egypt, and thus we would only be postponing the day of
conflict to a perhaps not distant future. I trust, how-
ever, we may yet be able to bring Russia to an under-
standing and Turkey to an understanding. Hence we
should get Russia to withdraw her troops, and I think
we might do this without war if we were only united.
Then we should say to Turkey, we require you to im-
prove your condition ; we require you to fortify the
Balkan and the Bosphorus ; we require a certain amount
of your subjects to take up positions to enable you to
stand against dangers in future. This is the first pro-
position. A second proposition might be offered as
follows : let the various provinces of the Turkish Em-
pire be delared independent; and let each be allowed to
have powers of its own, and laid on secure political
foundations, and so form a Turkish Confederation.
Thirdly, there is the establishing—but this is not a ques-
tion for to-day or to-morrow—of a Greek empire in
Constantinople. But, gentlemen, there is another solo-
. tion, and that is to sit quietly by and join Russia in the
spoil. Let us take hold of Turkey and parcel it out.
Well, we will parcel it out : Russia gets Roumelia and
Constantinople— the best of the bargain ; give Austria
Moldavia and Wallachia • England will get Egypt—all
pretty fair, perhaps ; but what will France get ? Assyria,
you will say. Bat France might not have it. What
would she then ? She would demand Lombardy and
Venice, Now, are the sovereigns and statesmen of
Europe prepared for such a reconstruction of continental
Europe as this ? If they are not prepared for this division
of the spoil—if they are not prepared for this altered geo-
graphy, then all I ask is, not to pluuge the country into
war ; but I ask you to combine, as patriots and practical
thinkers, and insist on the Russian army evacuating
the provinces. Once evacuated, Turkey has no fur-
tbef claim on us. Turkey claims our honest
advice. If the conditions be agreed to by the Czar, and
yet Turkey after all, in a fit of vindictive fanaticism, in-
volves this country in war, she will experience the in-
evitable fate of wars in the misery of untold generations.
(Applause). These are my sentiments. My name is
recorded amongst the list of those who are connected
with the Peace Society. I was asked to be present at
Edinburgh, and it was only the circumstance of a pro-
fessional engagement at Hull which prevented me being
there ; but had I been there, I would have uttered the
sentiments I have uttered now. I agree with all my
heart with the solemn and benevolent institutions of the
Peace Society. By all means let them go on. They
may be laughed at to-day, and sneered at to-morrow,
but they will triumph in the end. (Applause.) But
what I insist on is, that the country has to be taught
into the doctrines of peace. There is one great way ofl
teaching the country to be peaceful, if statesmen and
politicians would take the thing into their own hands,
and strike at the root—secret diplomacy. (Applause.)
Secret diplomacy brought us into our present position,
because, when England was appealed to, ministers
were afraid of the common sense of the people—.
because the ministers of the Queen thought the sub-
jects'of the Queen could not be trusted with what were
called international secrets. But, while they were doubt-
ing the prudence and judgment of the people, these
secrets of theirs were being published in Germany and
other nations. (Applause.) While Ministers were
rising in the House of Commons and refusing to give
explanations, because they might embroil the affair at
that very moment the French papers were publishing
the very missives and letters which we had sent to our
envoys abroad. I hope a lesson will be taught by this.
I believe the Peace Society might do a great deal if they
insisted on their doing away with this secret diplomacy.
There ought to be no mystery between nations. (Ap-
plause.) We ought to know the cause of the quarrel.
We ought to know why diplomatists failed in construct-
ing a satisfactory note. If Ministers had only put more
confidence in the country, the present embroilments and
difficulties would never have taken place. But, as I
said before, the question of the dispute in Turkey affects
past legislation, past policy, and not future. The Peace
Society are valuable for helping us to a proper know-
ledge of our future policy, and to a future and more ju:
dicious course of international arrangements and treaties.
(Applause.) All it can do in the present contest is to
call attention to the evils of war and the blessings of
peace. But surely if all fails—surely if every effort to
come to a friendly conclusion fails—surely if we cannot
get Russia to evacuate the provinces—surely if Turkey
must be trodden down and plundered—surely it is our
duty then, and only then, as the last resort, to lay our
hands on our swords, and put our trust in the God of
battles, (Mr. Seymour resumed his seat amidst loud
cheers.)
Mr. JOSHUA WILSON said the pleating duty devolved
1 on him of proposing a resolution of approbation of the
parliamentary conduct of their much respected friend
WM. Digby Seymour ; and he could not but contrast the
present meeting with the last one of a similar kind which
parliamentarymem
gbgeerr fyoi_• Saut Sunderland
rlindhdguec at
Hotel—(laughter)—their
came
was
lt_o
he attended. It was not an annual meeting when the
Whiatog ai thevnu ha head-quarters
ee
ra) accountd_-qt ub ae ri.
rt nefr s
Whighoi sf
member, David Barclay, when seeking for re-election
couldwent trhereooul
lge he
thtihs
eParliamentaryii ct
aa
rr
ye eare,
tai
on
ud
oafs
hfiasrdausr i
nhge
his whole parliamentary course that elicited a solitary
cheer—he once voted against Ministers. (Laughter.)
Now,he
conceived
esheuaipvvpeeccratehs good a Ministry as they could,
tehyeuyesehdoeutiludootnalymoenmcheedriifffehre wasfrom
; only to register what ministers said but the electors had
them.t y coleu
Hetldt h n
now broken through that compact He remembered last
year they were told they were all flats, and that their
member would turn out a Tory in disguise, but they had
a proof of him in the past session, and accordingly he
moved "That this meeting has heard from Mr. Seymour
with great Satisfaction the exposition of his parliamen-
tary conduct, and desires to expresss its cordial approval
of the part which he has taken on the leadinr, questions
which have been before parliament, and the attention
which he has given generally to the interests of his con-
stituents." He could tell them that the number of their
member's votes was far above the average,, and he had