The Sun.
London, England, 1854-05-24 00:00:00

say when it would be brought in, as its preparation would y felt that attachment towards her which rendered it impos-
take some time. l sible that places of public worship could fall into decay,
SARDINIA AND ROME
I and that, so far from aid from the public being good, it
Mr. WOODD wished to ask Lord J. Russell whether it damped the ardour and relaxed the exertions of members
is true, as reported, that the Government of this country of the Church. Throughout the large towns of the king-
has interposed in relation to the differences between the domdiehurchrate exist
eshadabheyewhenearb:lyiseht eretdh,aanwdertehneye
cweemre.
the Government of Sardinia and that of Rome ; and, if so, rapidly
iyecfeast ceasing
h
h g t
churches going to decay; and the informa-
have reference to the subject on the table of the house. whether there will be any objection to lay such papers as plaints
Lion he had received induced him to believe that more was
Lord J. RUSSELL said no such interposition had taken being expended on the fabrics than when the church rates
place, and there were consequently no papers to produce. existed. In corroboration of this he could state that he
PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS IN IRELAND. had received a letter from a respectable nonconformist gen-
Mr. BOVirYER asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland,
tleman at Liverpool, where a church rate had been refused
whether her Majesty's Government intend to propose a by a majority of 537 persons, informing him that the con-
of
measure enabling Courts of Quarter Sessions in Ireland to
duct
accepted the rector was very creditable; that he at once
give remuneration to the sessional Crown solicitors for the d the decision of the parishioners, and appealed to
prosecution of larcenies.
his congregation for voluntary contributions every Sunday
Sir J. YOUNG replied that the subject was under con-
which now averaged 151. each Sunday—a sum far more
sideration, but he could hold out no prospect of legislating considerable than the amount of church rates. (Hear.) It
was for these reasons that he was convinced the best mode
upon it this session. was to abolish church rates, and trust to the affection of
THE PRESTON STRIKE. the members of the Church to provide funds for those pur-
Mr- PALMER wished to ask the hon. member fort Fins- poses to which they were applied. It was in accordance
with these feelings that he asked leave to introduce this
bill. It consisted of two clauses, but, in reality, there
bury, whether he intended to persevere to-night wih
thethe
followingma motion :—Select committee to inquire into
au,.
1 ints of the working and industrious classese.or, and was only one, the second being a proviso to the first- —the
othercep inhabitants of the borough of Preston, assett-tt one abolislong church rates altogether, and the other re-
in their petition Dreßnted to this house on the 3)th ‘ clay serving them wheretheyhalbeensubve;ted toother objects,
a March last, and to report their opinion to the ho 11:• until the charges to which they were by statute applicable
seid lie had this morning received were extinguished or otherwise met. It was admitted on
Mr. I'. DUNCONIBE
all hands than the law cord(' not remain iu itspresent state
a letter from Preston, which relieved biui fifom.
sponsibility on the subject. The letter (whilstn, theallhosoe.-
and he thought he had shown conclusively that no mode
b :vortild withdraw was so ,desirable as entire abolition. He appealed to gen-
Dunconi e)
member read) expressed a hope that as the . ggle 11 .(.1 now
ceased, they hoped he (Ur.
lo (Hear.) tlemen who were members of the Church whether the time
his motion, and this he said he should now t .
had net arrived to relieve themselves from the reproach of
,
CHURCH R. NTES. not having sufficient earnestness and sincerity in their at-
Sir W. CLAY then rose to move for leave to introduce tachteent to the Church of which they professed to be
a bill for the entire abolition of church rates. He said it members, even to main sin the fabrics which the piety of
wa our ancestors had raised. Was it not time that they should
main in its resent state. The interests of reliion of
show themselves too proud, if not too honest, to call upon
p g
admitted on all sides that the queetion could not re-
those who did not use them to contribue to the expense of
,
justice, and of sound policy alike require that it should be maintaining these places of worship ? (Hear, hear.) Was
finally settled. Almost every party and section in that
it not time to close this perennial spring of bitter waters,
house had brought forward and supported measures for the to stop this source of acrimonious feeling, and to abolish an
abolition of church rates. The Government of Earl Grey,
impost, collected in the name of religion, but opposed to
every feeling which religion inspired ? He saw no reason
in 1833, and the Government of Lord Melbourne, in 1837, why there should not be peace. Churchmen and Dissenters
both endeavoured to effect a final settlement of the clues- both professed to belong to a religion of peace; why should
tion ; and,
more recently, bills were introduced for the not harmony exist? The field of harvest was wide enough
same object by Sir J. Easthope, by Mr. Trelawny, by the for all, and why should they not pursue with goodwill to-
hon. member for Finsbury, and by the hon. and learnedglorious wards each other their vocation—to instruct, to
enlighten, to elevat and to humanise? (Ch t member for Tavistock, And the house had now before it were abundant ands,ffi reasons for mutueers) There
al repect. a measure proposed by the hon. member for Leicester- Churchmen should not
forget that they owed to their sNon-
shire- None of those measures had obtained the assent of conformist fellow-citizens, or rather to their predecessors,
n
Parliament, with many of them he disagreedconsidembly,ot only religious but civil freedom. (Hear, hear.) They
should not forget that they had resisted the blandishments
but, at all events, theyproved that a strong sense prevailed of power and endured the wrongs of persecution. Noncon-
both within and without the walls of that house, of the ne- formists should not forget that the Established Church was
cessity of some alteration in the law. (Hear, hear.) Since the firmest bulwark of the Protestant faith. They should
. he last had the honour of bringing this question before the not forget that whatever faults they might find with it, its
house, two circumstances had occurred of no mean or- existence afforded stability as well as dignity to every va-
tance, and having no light bearing either upon the main riety of the- Protestant religion. The war into which by
question itself, or upon the mode in which it should be terrible necessity we had been driven, had had the effect of
dealt with. He alluded to the decision of the House of preventing almost every project of amelioration, but he
Lords in the Braintree case, and the publication of the would fain hope that this measure would pass. Tho hon.
census report upon religious worship. (Hear, hoar.) The gentleman concluded by moving for leave to introduce the
substantial essence and effect of the decision in the Brain- -bill.
tree case was this—the House of Lords, having had the
advice of the judges, pronounced by the mouth of Lord
Mr. PETO, in seconding the motion, expressed his gra-
Chief Justice Truro, tification that it- should have been introduced by a mem-
under contest was in gave judgment that the church rate
valid, inasmuch as it had not had the ber of the Church of England. (Hear.) It had been looked
' assent of the majority of the vestry. Lord Truro took oc- upon too much as a dissenting question. It was really as
casion to state that the judges were unanimous in the much a question for the members of the Established Church
opinion that a church rate, to be valid, must have the
as for members of the nonconformist body. They had
assent of a majority of the vestry. Some difference
of opinion had previously existed among the heard to what
a great extent churches. had been built and
judges
who were consulted, one or two thinking that public worship carried on with in them by voluntary con-
s majority of the vestry, by refusing a rate, would oust tributions, and in many of the contests the refusal of the
themselves from their jurisdiction, and that in such a rate had been decided by church votes. For these reasons
case their would be a constructive majority in favour of the it was eminently worthy the consideration of the Church
rate. Lord Chief Justice Truro, in a judgment charac- of England, whether they would allow this root of bitter-
tensed by that luminous phraseology and that power of ness to remain promoting discontent and division among
analysis for which the noble and learned lord was isle- themselves. (Hear.) With regard to noncomformists they brated, completely overturned that view of the question, had strong and conscientious objections, arising from be
it was finally decided unanimously that to make a rate lief in the voluntary nature of every religious exercise, and
valid it must be assented to by a majority of the vestry- in the impropriety of forcing parties to support a religious
He entreated the house toconsider the full importance and service which they disapproved. He believed it conk! be
significance of that decision. It nut only set at rest the shown that the assessment was not necessary for the sup-
much disputed point of whether the churchwardens of port of the edifices used in religious worship, and it was
their own authority, or supported by a minority of the itself impracticable. They need only look to the census
vestry, could make a rate valid, but it incidentally settled returns to satisfy themselves that with a body which had
for all practical purposes two other questions which had shown such a determination as to contribute a sum not
been much debated, namely whether church rates were to exceeding seven millions of money for the erection of
Y churches within the last half century, it was not at all
be considered a perpetual obligation on property, or only
an obligation on property in virtue of the person, and likely they would allow those churches to fall into decay,
whether there was an obligation at common law to main- The Dissenters had 20,390 places of worship entirely sup_
fain
first the fabr
uestions, ic of the parish
understood that the best auth church. With respect to the ported by voluntary contributions, and in those centres of
of these qhe o- activity and intelligence, Lancashire and Yorkshire, great
rities were in favour of the rate being considered a per- results were accomplished entirely by voluntary efforts.
renal tax ; while with regard to the second, the balance of (Hear, hear.) He might refer also to what Scotland had
authority was eupposed to favour the view that there was done. The Free Church of that country, when thrown
no obligation at common law to maintain the fabric of the upon her own resources, had provided an amount for the
parish church. Hitherto there had been some fabric of
erection and support of places of worship which had excited J
the law, but now it was perfectly clear, and the conse- the astonishment of the nation and the age. It had been
quenceevould be that in all cases where a majority of the often said that it was only in the towns and in the mann-
vestry had the chance, they would refuse to impose a lecturing districts that any question with respect to
church rate. Already that power had been exercised in a church rates arose—that the majority of the rural dis-
large number of places. After all, upon whom were they tries were practically Church of England, and that
imposing these dues ? Was it on a small portion of the therefore, with respect to them, no hardship existed.
people ? Was it on a fragment of the population of Eng- The statistics of the Independents, of the Baptists,
land, that made it unnecessaryand unbecoming the dignity and of the Wesleyans—showing the relative numbers
of the house to listen to their complaint ? Upon that head of sittings in connection with each denomination in
they had the most extraordinary disclosures, upon the the towns and in the rural districts—contradicted this as-
most complete authority—the census report on religious surnption; and the fact that some of the severest contests
worship. Tho population of England and Wales was, in which had taken place with respect to church rates had
round numbers, 18 millions. The proportion for which, arisen in rural districts, was a proof that the feeling there
by an elaborate process of reasoning, that report showed was as strong as in the towns. He must say, with respect
they ought to provide church accommodation was 53 to the bill introduced by the hon. member for Leicester-
per cent., or above ten millions. The Established Church shire (Mr. Packs), that he believed they were only prolong-
hadhprodd 14,713 churches, and accommodation for ing feelings of bitterness, and preventing the fair and final
,317,915 persons. The nonconformist body had provided settlement of the question by the introduction of these half 1
20,390 places of worship, and accommodation for 4,89,604 measures. (Hear, hear.) He believed that justice required
persons. Therefore, of the religious portion of the people that church rates should be totally abolished, and that the
—those who really availed themselves of places of worship Church of England could do nothing more effectually to
—nearly one half did not belong to the Established Church. promote peace than by meeting this question in a fair and
On the census Sunday, the attendance of all denomina- liberal spirit, and by showing a proper reliance on her own
tions at religious worship was '10,896,000, of which 5,604,000 principles. (Hear hear.) He knew that Dissenters were
attended places of worship belonging to the Established sometimes charged' with entertaining feelings of bitterness
Church, and 5,292,000 places of worship belonging to the towards the Church. He disclaimed on his part, as a
Nonconformist body. That close conformity between the Nonconformist, all such feelings, (Hear, hear.) Although
number of persons attending and the accommodation pro- he was himself a Dissenter, no member of that hones would
vided, weat far, in his opinion, to establish the accuracy rejoice more than himself to see the Church of England
of both calculations. Those figures proved to his mind prosper—to see her reformed within herself— to see the
that the present state of the law could not be allow el to immense revenues in her possession brought to bear for the
continue. The question remained, in what mode should benefit of the country, and to see her relieved of the scan-
the alteration be effected The suggestions were mani- del which was at this moment caused by the incomes en-
fold. The first was to take the law as it now sto el—to joyed by her bishops and by the higher orders of her
recognise the permanent and univeral obligation to pay clergy, and by the lax state of morality which prevailed in
church rates, and to devise some summary and efficient our cathedral towns. (Hear, hear.) He believed that if
process for enforcing the law. lie supposed that scarcely half the money which was expended on our cathedral esta-
any one would be found to advocate that mode of dealing hii,thwents were devoted to City missions, to the augmen-
with the question, though a petition to that effect had tation of the incomes of the poorer clergy, and to the
been presented by the hon. baronet the member for the placing of clergymen where none at present existed, the
University of Oxford (Sir W. Heathcote) from certain of Church of England would have a much stronger hold ton
the in the diocese of Exeter. Tho second was the the feelings and affections of the people of England ; and
mode proposed by the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. the Disseaers, so far from regretting, would most heartily
Phillimore), in conformity with a proposition of the same rejoice to see it, because by such means the cause of true
kind by Sir Page Wood, and also in conformity with the religion would be advauced, and no interest whatever,
very able pamphlet of the noble lord the member for King's with respect to the Church, would be sacrificed,
Lynn (Lord Stanley). That proposal was to enable Dis- (Hear, hear.) He knew it was sometimes said of them
seaters, on complying with certain formalities, to relieve that they wished to sacrifice the prizes of the Church.
themselves from the liability to pay church rates. It (Hear, hear.) But what should be the prizes of the Church ?
had. an aspect of fairness about it, but it was a very If he knew anything whatever of the obligations of a Chris-
offensive thing to insist on the declaration of any lean man, he should rank first amoug those obligations the
man's religious belief, and by forcing men to define their duty of living, as far as he possibly could, according to the
creed they would sharpen those differences of opinion of revealed will of God ; and if he were told that it was a
which they were scarcely conscious. There were a great " prize" for a clergyman to obtain an income of some
many persons who went to church in the morning, and 15,000/. or 20,009/. a-year, when 5,000/. would be sufficient
in, the evening to some nonconformist chapel. He could to maintain him in any position of life which it was neces-
not' believe this mode was likely to receive the sup- sary for him to fill, he must reply that he believed those
port of the house. (Hear, hear.) Then came the pro- incomes were a source of great discomfort in the Church
posal of the hon. member for Leicestershire (Mr. Packe), hon. and were perfectly unnecessary. In conclusion, the
which most whimsically combined all the objections to the hon. member repeated his conviction that such reform' sas
other modes suggested. The lion. member for whom he he had indicated, and the dealing with this question of
had a great respect, proposed to retain a large portion of church rates in the only way iu which it could be dealt
the church rate, and enforce it by summary process, whilst with satisfactorily, would tend to strengthen the Church
he also proposed to relieve nonconformists upon declaration and to extend her influence, as well as to promote peace
of religious belief being made before two magistrates. He and harmony and goodwill throughout the entire cons-
came to the last mode, aud that was abolition. That was iriunity,
the mode which, either by itself or accompanied by sonic mr. WIGRAM agreed with the hon. members who had
substitution of other sources for the maintenance of church maids and seconded this motion, that the had
and indeed come
fabrics, would be found to be the only mode of dealing when it was a matter of the utmost importance,time
with the question. (Hear, hear.) Whether the abolition of absolute necessity, that some measures should be asset)
should be accompanied by some substitution of of other funds upon the subject of church rates.
(Hear, hear.) He said
to provide for those precise objects to which church rates so because it must be admitted that in some districts of
were applied, was a question upon which arguments of tine country—although he hoped that 'those tlistricts were
considerable weight might be used on either side, and upon neither many nor extensive—but certainly in some dis-
which a difference of opinion might very fairly exist. It tricts church rates had been the cause of much bitternese,
was a question more for churchmen than nonconformists. and of much unkindly feeling. (Hear, hear.) He was
The essential point fur the latter was abolition. To that persuaded, however, that this had had its origin, not in
they wore entitled. (Hear, hear.) It was for the mem- the subject of church rates generally, so much as in the
hers of the Church to consider whether by law they would uncertainty of the law. (Hear, hear.) It was because for
provide a substitute. In bringing forward the subject last a long series of years theobligation to pay-church rates had
year, he suggested that some provision for those objects been a matter of uncertainty thatattempts had been made
might be found in th„urnins funds of the Church, not to elude them. (Hear, hear, and oh, oh.) He was because he he believed them ner-cessary, but because there was suaded that if the law upon the subject of the obligation
a difference of opinion, and some thought that, the Church to pay had been as clear as in the case of tithes they
1
being a national establishment, some provision should be would have had no more contests with respect to the pay-
made by law for the maintenance of established places of ment of church rates than they had had with resect to
worship. He concurred in the opinion expressed by the tithes, (Oh, oh.) This was his most sincere belief;
noble lord and the hon. member, that the superfluous nor could he see upon what ground a valid objection
wealth of the Church should be devoted to keeping up the to pay church rates could possibly be made. He hop el the
fabrics of the Church. No one doubted that the surplus house would not consent to the introduction of this bill,
revenues of the Church would be ample for the purpose; which was a bill not for the substitution of any other
for in 1&33 Lord Althorp stated the amount applied to mode for that which had so long been recognised, but for
keeping up the fabrics was about 250,0001., and a report of the simple and entire abolition of the provision which had
a later date, in 1840 he believed, estimated it at about the so long
existed in this country for the maintenance of our
'me num, As to the expenses attending the ministration parish churches. (Hear, hear.) He doubted whether the
of divine worship, pew rents would be sufficient. They expectation which the hon. member had held out, that, in
had been used for the purpose in a great many churches, the event of church rates being abolished, other means
the public mind was familiarised with their appli- would be voluntarily provided out of which the churches
cation in that wa and no more just principle might be maintained, would be realised in the result. Re_
conld be devised
h ldthin' that persons using the church ferenco had been made to what the Church of England had
8 " pay for theministrations in that worship which done in the erection of churches, and in providing clergy-
they __
ment ad
in which they were most
opted
th. Fear, hoar.) If, therefore, the Govern- men in those parts of the country
aPProved,
bill he was about -to propose to intro- urgently required. (Hear.) Those only who had engaged
duce, they could
eitlier engraft upon it those propositions, in such undertakings could appreciate the difficulties which
or make it the law of the
an additional bill for that land'which were necessary to
as proposed, and bring in were experienced, and the efforts .
dare, on the most mature He was bound to de- surmount them. To what extent, then, would those diffi-
fill analysis of all the fact:th
Pe4rntrider.ation, and a most care- culties be increased if they called upon the friends of the
ledge, that church rates mightt had come to his know- Church to supply the means for the accomplishment of
smallest chance either of thenri had
abolished without the those objects which were now provided for by church
the maintenance of the fabrics bletantr
tion of service or of rates ? (Hear.) There could be no doubt that in that
Donna the The facts case the energies of the Church of England would be ham-
were certainly very startling.
present century, more churcheshad bee°
300 years before. From 1801 b i.to thaninesufirst half of the pared, and her expansion impeded to a very considerable
NV orextent. The right hon.baronet verytruly
d2urrinirg
hat)
bene-
churches were erected, at an expense of 9,087,0 e ' ,"J the law on she subject of church rates had been very fully
eOl- The and carefully considered in the Braintree case, which was
contributions towards those nine millions from the br
PrivatoPtt lc decided in the last session of Parliament; but if they would
fends amounted to 1,663,4'29/. ;while from
refer to that case they would find that the judges who had
amounted to 7,423,5711. The proportion they
public funds was percent. to 83 per cent. pri•vaeetiof heard it were all agreed in the opinion that the obligation
But if they divided the half canto e-
on the owners and occupiers of lands and houses in this
factions. (Cheers.)
country to replace and uphold the parish church was an
° F 1800 to 1830, five hundred
into two perioclsf thirty and twentyyears, the result V-srs3;
rom obligation at common law, which was just as binding and
i wit as•
at an "expense' of ethree minions, -clearly recognised as the obligation to repair
still more surprising.
to the richr.Y
churches' were „built,
e°untY bridges, (Hear, hear. What What was that oblige-
- , time? It• ' .
whereof there was .
contributed from public funds
sent t the
this count w"
to maintain and uphold in every parish in
1,152,0001., and from _ private funds 1,848,0001. being 35
per cent. private contributions. a house(Hear, hear, hear.) Would the house con-
of God, open to the poor as well as
a e from long antiquit by they per
cent.
public, and
6D
2,0'29 churches built, at an
counter From 1830 to 150,
there was contributed had be:ti in d abrogation of such a retoevoies
ii revision
lawwhich
ye without the sithstittystion of any other pro-
there were
of 6 011 000/. whereof _
expense , , '. 00,! , and from private funds this
from public funds 511, .
) It appeared ground assigned for th,oi_at.:leoaeprji)on
_pu,berlise: funds, and 91 vision for it?
of such a course. (Hear,
5,500,000/. or 8 1-3 per cent. from(
He had heard no valid
2-3 per cent. from private funds. Ch
proceeded in an inverse hear.) It was said, re two maintenance of olio I, that contributions for the
that the exertions of the Church
There were
(Hear, hear, hear.)s They were
called for from all,
ratio to the help received fi our the State., Ah
greets by the State in 1817, and in 1821 or 1825, and in whereas all could not participate
abeeentefit of the cou
the first thirty years the portionpron of private and public the fact was that they were not established for the benefit
contributions was 35 per cnt. nd 6o per cent.
bI u o f any partfihcru ltahre
made y established
ntr and e,
the last twenty years, when no grants were
9 3per to all those who could and would use them', -ere open
the State the. proportion was 8 1-3 against 91 - .
representing the the whole (Rear, hear.)
cent. If, again, they added to the whole sum contra- parliament, people of the
,well as Churchmen, exercised over
buted in the half century to the building of chinches by
Dissenters as
expense them a real and effective control ; and laws were
cont•inue
private benefactions, namely seven millions, the
-
defrayed by nonconformists in the erection of 10,000 ally introduced into that house with respect to them.
It was not the fact that the whole people
chapels at an average cost of 1,5001. each, or 15 millions, it (Hear, hear.).
for the doctrines of the
Church of
give a total of 22 millions
would
that the great mass and body of the
. e
places of worship by private benefactors, as against England were such
- 1 contributes) ' could with the utmost propriety and conscientious.
a.
,600,000/. from the public funds, or 92e per people
(1 not do so because, from alight dif-
--• - \ pent. against 74 per cent. (Cheers.) Such a statement as ness, and they only di .
- that almost precluded argument. (Hear, hear.) It , ferences upon particular religious doctrines,
'ehowed beyond all doubt that the members of the Church • them - preferred to p P
1 rovide other laces of worship for

themselves. (Hear, hear.) Was that any reason why
they should be exonerated from providing that which was
for the common benefit of all ? (Hear, hoar.) He thought
it would be quite as reasonable that a particular division
of a county should disclaim the use of a particular county
bridge, and expect to be exempt from contributing to-
wards keeping it in repair. (Hear, hear.) Church rates
were a charge upon the land. (Hear, hear.) Nothing but
the merest quibble could represent it otherwise, and as the
present owners of the lands of this country had acquired
them subject to the charge, they had not, either in law or
in equity, anything like a claim to be relieved from it.
Mr. GARDNER was of opinion that this vexed ques-
tion could never be satisfactorily settled by any measure
in the nature of a compromise. It appeared that the ob-
ligation of which the hon. member opposite had spoken
rested on the common law, or on custom, and this
might have been all very well when the Established
Church was really., and not nominally, the Church of the
nation. It was all very well to say that the churches
were open to all, if all chose to attend them ; but all did
not choose to attend them, and how were they to compel
them to do it ? Church rates, he believed, were unknown
in any other country, yet the Church of England was the
richest establishment in the world, and was
very far in-
deed from deserving, at the last census had shown, the
name of a national establishment. Was it worth the
while of the Church to keep alive a feeling of irritation,
not only among dissenters, but in the country generally,
for the sake of this paltry sum ? (Hear, hear.) He was
afraid that churchmen forgot their own interest, that they
tnought to have a perpetual lease of power and pre-emi-
nence, and that they were like the jovial clergymen de-
scribed by Goldsmith, who met together and resolved that
they would go on preaching to the world, and that the
world should go on paying for their preaching, whether
they liked it or not. (Hear, hear.) He thought our
whole ecclesiastical system was rotten at the core—that it
would be wholly impossible to maintain it on its present
foundation—that it was very unwise to go on irritating
the dissenters—and that the opposition which ho antici-
pated would be offered on all sides to the introduction of
this bill was an indication of the blindness and infatuation
which precipitated the downfall of every institution which
had outlived the necessities and the circumstances of the
times in which it was founded, and had ceased to be
in harmony with the spirit of the age. He hoped his hon.
friend, although he might be beaten now, would persevere
until his object was attained.
Mr. PACKE admitted the necessity of legislation on
this subject. (Hear, hear.) If this were simply a question
between one set of people worshipping in one place, and
another set of people worshipping in another place, he
might be inclined to vote with the hon. baronet for the
total abolition of church rates. (Hear.) But this was not
the question. (Hear.) The real question was this—here
was an establishment which had existed now for above a
thousand years, for the benefit of all classes of the
people—a national establishment—by which he understood
an establishment supported by the nation for the national
good. (Hear, hear.) The difference between a clergyman
of the Church of England and a dissenting minister was
this--that the clergyman had the cure of all the souls in
his parish. (Hear, hear, and oh, oh.) Whether they
chose to avail themselves of his ministrations or not was
another point ; but this was the duty for which he was
paid—for visiting the sick, for burying the dead, for
solemnizing marriages, and for performing religious offices,
in every way, for the whole parish, whereas a dissenting
minister was attached only to a particular congregation.
(Hear, hear.) It was the duty of the nation to provide
places of worship for those who were too poor to provide
them for themselves ; and he apprehended that every per-
son in the kingdom derived benefit from the existence of
establishments in which these poor people might be taught
some principles of religion. (Hear, hear.) There were
some, also, who did not attend any place of worship, not
because they were poor, but from causes within their own
control ; and it was the duty of a Christian nation to pro-
vide the means of worship for such as these, whether they
chose to avail themselves of them or not. In the parish of
Marylebone, alone, he had learnt that there were more
people attending public-houses on the Sunday than the
aggregate congregations of all the places of worship in the
parish. (Hear.) According to the census, on the par-
ticular Sunday for which the returns relating to religious
worship had been obtained, the number who attended no
place of worship, who were not hindered by age, or occu-
pation, or illness, was 5,238,294. (Hear, hear.) Now
for these the nation ought to make such provision as that
the means of religious worship should, at all events, be
placed within their reach. (Hear.) In the bill which he
had prepared upon this subject, ho disclaimed all inten-
tions of insulting the Nonconformists, in endeavouring to
ascertain who were Dissenters and who were churchmen.
(Hear.) The hon. baronet's proposition he understood to
be a proposition to abolish church rates, and not to propose
any substitute or modification of he law. A division of
the Church property had been suggested ; but supposing
the revenues of the Church to be equally divided, the
amount for each clergyman would not exceed 3001. a
year, and no one would consider that too large an amount
for a gentleman of education ; and as the population in-
creased, the churches must increase also, so that, according
to that scheme, the provision for the clergy would diminish
year by year. Another remedy suggested was that of pew
rents. Now that would strike at the root of the object of
the Church of England, for the establishment of pew rents
in small parishes would altogether prevent the poor from
frequenting the church. Although Parliament had secured
the clergy their incomes, and voted sums for the building
of churches, it was now proposed to stop short, and say,
" We will not keep in repair the churches which have been
built out of the funds of the nation." The hon. member
fo- Norwich said that many persons were obliged to pay
towards the support of a religion of which they did not ap-
prove. He (Mr. Packe) admitted that many persons did
not approve of the doctrines preached in the Church, but
how many of the different dissenting denominations dis-
sented from each other ? The largest denomination next to
the Church were the Wesleyans, and they were not averse
to church rates, and not considering their abolition desir-
able, he should vote against the introduction of the bill.
dr. BIGGS said the dissenters considered the church
rate an unjust impost and an abstraction of money from
one set of religionists for the support of the worship of
another. The levying of church rates was a source of con-
stant annoyance. Two years ago, when he was Mayor of
Leicester, it became his duty to issue a number of distress
warrants, but he solved the difficulty by paying the church
rates himself. He was glad to say that in five of the
parishes in Leicester church rates had been abolished, but
this had not been done without a great struggle and the
manifestation of much ill feeling amongst different parties.
To show the inconvenience sometimes occasioned by the
imposition of church rates, lie might mention that on
ono occasion, when he was dining with a party, a num-
ber of distress warrants were brought to the table for
the signature of a magistrate, and that magistrate actually
had to affix his name to a distress warrant against
the host at whose table he was sitting. (Hear, hear.) Two-
thirds of the population had escaped from the pale of the
Church of England, and the moral loss to that Church
from the enforcement of the church rate law was greater
than was generally imagined. When the Church of Eng-
land was the richest Church in the world, was it worth
while to continue an impost which tended to increase the
alienation from the Church which already existed? (Hear,
hear.) If he were a Churchman, he would support the
entire abolition of church rates. He maintained that
those who supported the abolition of church rates were the
best friends of the Church, and he felt convinced that the
Dissenters of Leicester would erect a monument to the
memory of the man who should succeed in procuring them
their abolition. (Hear, and laughter.)
Captain SCOBELL supported the motion of the honour-
able member for the Tower Hamlets, being desirous to see
church rates abolished as church rates. It had been said
that the churches were open to the rich and the poor. That
was true. But if the poor went to church, where were
they to sit? (Hear, hear.) In one-half of the churches in
the kingdom there were no seats for them, and it was,
therefore, worse than a deception to talk of the' Church of
England as a national Church. Nothing would be so
beneficial to the Church as the redistribution of its wealth
for the good of the Church. 'The great blot on the Church
was the unequal distribution of that wealth. (Hear, hear.)
He should like to see the pious man put forward rather than
the man possessing the greatest influence, and the resources
of the Church so employed as to produce the greatest
amount of good to the country and to itself. (Hear, hear.)
With respect to church rates he saw no way so short, so
effectual, and so certain of arriving at a desirable result as
their total abolition as church rates, and he thought they
might be dealt with in a way which he had never yet
heard suggested. He could not forget that the land had
for centuries been bought and sold subject to church rates,
and that they were ingrained into the value of the land,
and he. did not see how they could be severed from the
land; and those who advocated their total abolition ought
to remember that those who had the most land would re-
ceive the most benefit from such a measure. (Hear, hear.)
Now he would abolish church rates as such, but would
appropriate the sum thus raised to the purposes of educa-
tion, either in an aggregate sum as a fund for the whole
nation, or for the support of the schools in the particular
places where the rate should be collected. All parties
would thus benefit from the rate, and he believed that
those who grudged the payment of a sum for church rates
would cheerfully pay it in the shape of a school rate.
(Hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY said—Sir, I confess Ido not quite un-
derstand the proposition of the hon. and gallant gentle.
man that has just addressed us. (Hear, bear.) He says, I
believe, in effect, that he does altogether desire the aboli-
tion of church rates, but that they should be transferred to
another purpose. However, it is not my intention to occupy
the attention of the house for more than a few minutes, be-
cause all the arguments used have been very much of one
kind. I must say, so far as the Nonconformists and those
who object to church rates are concerned, I do not think
that the legislation of this house is of very much import-
ance, because if Parliament were only to leave the public
alone for four or five years more I believe it would be found
at the end of that time that the question had settled itself.
The real hardship, therefore, is not with those who object
to paying rates, but it lies rather here, that there is always
a great public disadvantage in our maintaining upon the
statute book a law which the stateof pubic feelingrenders
inoperative. (Hear, hear.) And in addition to this there
is involved the great hardship of throwing upon those who
are officially responsible for the maintenance of the
churches the necessity of resorting to a rate, and of adopt-
ing a course which can only be taken at the risk of creating
great disturbance and ill feeling. Still, in many cases, not-
withstanding such consequences, they were compelled to
have resort to a rate, because if they merely proposed a
voluntary assessment they would be told, "you need not
come upon us in this way, for you have a legal provision
to meet your wants." Now, what is the present state of
the church rate law? We cannot deny that the po-
sition of the question had changed since last year, in
consequence of the decision in the Braintree case. Up
to that time it was supposed there was a power to
compel parishes to maintain their churches, and of
punishment in case of its non performance. That led
to rates being granted without any dispute in many
parishes, where otherwise disputes and differences would
infallibly have occurred. That state of things is now,
however, at an end, and the consequence is, that the dis-
cussions which for some years had been checked are
now revived in many parts of the country. Indeed
many of the most Conservative boroughs of the country
—many whose feelings of attachment to the Church
aro very strong, have, nevertheless, refused to ins-
pose church rates. (Hear, hear.) Such, then, is the
present state of things; awl there appears every proba-
bility of its ]acting, although I believe the question will be
ultimately settled in some few years in every borough of
the kingdom. That, however, is a result not to be attained
without a great deal of disputation and discontent. (Hoar.)
For as to the church rate law in itself, I do not suppose
that any one will deny that it involves a great anomaly, and
has done so ever since the existence of dissent was recog-
nised by the civil law. And I have no doubt that so far as
the exemption of dissenters is concerned that the majority
of this house is iu favour of such a proposition. But when
we discussed the question last, it so happened that two
different plans were proposed—one resembling that which
the hon. baronet has this evening revived ; the movers of
each, however, disapproving of the other's proposal. In
consequence therefore, of the difference of opinion pre-
WhPie eleves4o4 fell to the ground. At prima

stfdetictil, And from consenting at once to any steps that
they think ni:if &lett such destruction. Now, I cannot
but consider that these rffegooetice are of a serious li:stun,
and I cannot confide in the assufaiects hen members give us
that if church rates were abolished all gone of and of
• dissension would cease; and that with regard to all other
prerogatives and privileges of the Church there -would be
perfect acquiescence and contentment, and the Church
might look forward to a state of happy and prosperous
tranquillity. I confess I have no such antici ations. The
Church has various exclusive privileges. It has the privi-
lege of a high position. It is established in the country,
and is protected by Parliament. Its prelates have alone
who of
Parliament,diff differ
no from
n tdhoan
every t
the
occasionofw
seats ino find
that those ofthhouses
Church complain of its exclusive privileges, and its high
position in the country. Now, lam not saying that
those feelings are unnatural, nor am I arguing that they
are unreasonable at this moment. But all Ido venture
to argue, and all experience supports me, is, that you can-
not expect when you remove this one source of dissen-
sion to have that tranquillity and contentment which have
been prophesied by my hon. friend. On the contrary I be-
lieve that this is one of a series of attacks that will be fol-
lowed by other attacks of the same nature. (Hear.) If
your principle is concession and nothing but concession—
if on every occasion you purchase peace by adopting this
course—l roust say that lam not prepared to say how far
you will b 3 obliged to go in this direction. At the same
time lam very fir from being ignorant of the difficulties
that beset this question of church rates. We cannot deny
that the state of the law is most unsatisfactory, and that
the reinedise which prevail under that law give rise to scenes
scandalous in themselves, and occasion amongst
the various religious sects in this country. Well,
this is practically true. While no man can deny
that such is the state of the law, I do not myself see that
you are likely to obtain any settlement of this question
which shall be at all satisfactory unless you take it into
your consideration what are the present rights of the Church,
and that you make your settlement upon a fair basis.
(Hear.) I have heard of a settlement on this basis and an
hon. gentleman opposite, who has introduced a bid upon
the subject, has adopted such basis—namely, that those
who dissent from the Church should be registered as Dis-
senters, and, being so reeistered, that there should be a
certain portion of the church rates to which they should not
be obliged to contribute. Such was in a great part the mea-
sure of tics- hon. and learned friend behind me (111r.Phillimore).
Well, I admit there is much to tempt one in this principle.
I own, however, I cannot but think that very serious evils
would follow hereafter from the distinctions that would be
thus set up between Churchmen and Dissenters. (Hear.)
One hon. gentleman has gone through some statistics in
regard to the Church. He has, however, I think, shown
not exactly that which he intended. It may no doubt be
true that the Church has no very great absolute majority
in the country, but it is quite evident that it has a very
considerable majority over eve:y other religion. The hon.
member has no doubt shown that there are great bodies
frequenting dissenting places of worship ; but there are
many of those dissenting places of worship attended by a
most numerous and respectable sect called Wesleyans, who
profess no hostility to the Church, and who, while they
purchase their lands and build their churches out of their
own resources, declare that they have no desire to injure
the Established Church. They think that Divine service
upon the Sunday should be attended to by the members
of the Established Church ; but they also think
that they ought to have dissenting chapels built for
their own particular form of worship. (Hear, hear.) I
think it would be a very great calamity if you obliged those
parties to say whether or not they were Dissenters, and
thereby put them in a position of antagonism to the
Church, which they did not themselves wish to occupy.
Such being the case, I am disposed to think it would be
far better that we should not now attempt during the re-
mainder of this session to find a solution of this very diffi-
cult problem. Ido not think it would be wise—l do not
thiuk it would be consistent with the position which the
Established Church holds in this country that you should
totally abolish church rates. (Hear, hear.) My hon. friend
says—" Let me abolish church rates, and you are at per-
fect liberty to rind some pr 'vision afterwards for the re-
pair of churches." That is a very convenient proposal for
my hon. friend's purpose; but I cannot forget that, what-
ever may be the present division of religious opinion in
this country, those churches are, after all, national struc-
tures. They , were intended to serve the purposes of a
national church; and the maintenance, at all events, of
those fabrics appears to be a national object. I think it
ought to be your first provision, and not your last, to en-
deavour to find some mode of maintaining those churches,
and having found that mode, it would be most agreeable to
every one to see that this particular species of support—
namely, church rates —which is the cause of vexation and
ill-will, being no longer necessary, was by common consent
to be abolished. But as the question stands at present I
certainly am not prepared to give my willing consent to
the total and entire abolition of those church rates with-
out any suestitute, and without any compensation. (Hear.)
If a division should now take place upon the subject, I
must, in consistency with my opinions, give a vote against
the introduction of this measure. (Hear.) The house is
not very full, and it may be that my hon. friend may be
successful in:his motion for leave to introduce his bill; but
as his principle is clearly declared I should feel more at
liberty, if lie were to succeed upon this occasion, in
opposing] the second reading of the measure, after having
declared my objections to it in the beginning, than if I
had silently allowed it to be introduced. It is not, after
all, of vital interest to the Church that this amount of
revenue should be collected in the way in which it is
now collected, or that it should be applied exactly in
the way in which it has hitherto been applied. Notwith-
standing all that has been said of the falling fortunes of
the Church, I have that belief in the attachment of the
majority of the people of this country to that Churct,
that even if it pleased Parliament totally to abolish these
church rates, I think moans would be found (cheers and
counter cheers) by the landowners, by the gentry, and by
men of all orders who belong to the Church, to supply the
revenue which would then be wanted. (Hear, hear.) It
is not, therefore, from a belief that the Church would by
niohatiun re disposednhc t,
which
iht
the mere abstraction of so couch revenue fall into decay,
that I am opposed to legislation of this kind ; but I do
otouhglis b-ee
think that if such a bill were to pass both Houses of Par-
liaineot,
tahastymsputpopmortthtaot Parliamentthe
Established
Church was
point, hitherto
withoutatfo afforded
smallest it.
concession
uponchi this h
considera-
tion of other means of settling the question—of what was
the state of the law—of what was due to the Church—l
think that such a concession—that such an ahsoluto sur-
render of the churns of the Church, would be a symptom
that in any future attacks on the same establishment the
assailants would be likely to obtain the support of Parlia-
ment. (Heir, hear.) I cannot, therefore, assent to the
proposal thatis now before us. Whether or not my oppo-
sition to this motion may be successful to-night, I feel
assured that a bill of this kind cannot pass through
Parliament in the present session. (Hear, hear.) I
think that the question, surrounded as it is with
difficulty, requires further consideration. I have no
doubt that a measure might be framed—and such a mea-
sure has already been repeatedly under the consideration of
gevernments in this country—which would meet thejustice
of the case, and which, if it were passed, would greatly
tend to diminish, at all events, the popular complaints
which are made against church rates. But that such a

we have again two plans laid before us, not precisely, how-
ever, those of last year. One of them originates with my
hon. friend (Mr. Paoke), and I am quite sure he brings it
forward with an earnest and sincere desire to satisfy all
classes of the community. (Hear, hear.) But I confess,
looking at his proposition, which provides an exemption
from the payment of certain temporary expenses—l con-
fess it appears to me that the distinction drawn is too
minute to give satisfaction to those who object to be taxed
at all. For I would impress upon the house that this
question has never been raised as one of money. If I
take the total amount that is raised from the noncon-
formists, I believe that at the very highest computation
it has never exceeded 200,000/. Tee amount, therefore,
becomes a totally insignificant one when the question
of feeling is taken into account. (Hear, hear.) The
question throughout, it cannot be concealed, has not been
one of money, but one of principle. (Hear, hear.) And
that being so, I believe that if we continue to uphold our
old law—if we are still to resort to the old machinery of
imposing a rate—although we may diminish its amount—
although in other ways we may alleviate the amount of
the pecuniary burden—that the daily objection on the
ground of principle will not be removed, and that all that
will have been done will be to render our rate less produc-
tive in amount, though no way less objectionable on the
ground of feeling. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, the propo-
sition brought forward last year by the lion, and learned
member for Tavistock (Mr. Phillimore) was founded, in
some respects, upon a different principle. It proposed the
entire exemption from church rates of those who did not
belong to the Church. Now, I believe that there was
nothing in that proposal which could be called unfair
or unreasonable. I confess I cannot see anything of
the character of hardship or persuasion in simply
calling upon men—not so much to make a declaration
of their religious opinions—but to declare whether
they intend to use the church or not, and if they do they
must pay for it. So far as my own opinions are concerned,
I think that a compromise might be effected ; but the re-
sult will be, whether such a measure be passed or not, that
in a few years the principle of collecting those rates will
be abandoned, and a different system will be resorted to.
(Hear, hear.) But the proposition of the hon. and learned
member for Tavistock was net received by this house ; and
inasmuch as it was not brought forward again this year,
I regard it as being entirely out of the question. The only
alternatives we have to consider are these—we may keep
the law as it ; but that, I apprehend, is not desired by
anybody. Well, then, we may adopt the proposition of
the hon. and learned member for Tavistock, to which I
have referred ; but I confess I think that this proposition
would not produce the effect he anticipates—that of
satisfying the claim of nonconformists. There is, then, a
third course—namely, that which is proposed by the hon.
baronet. It is proposed to settle this question for all
interests in the way in which one-half of England has
already settled it. Sir, I thiuk that the hon. baronet
has exercised a wise discretion in not attempting to de-
termine from what sources these funds are to be taken
which are to replace church rates. In regard to the ex-
penses of the Church, it is proposed that they should be
defrayed from the lands of the Church. Now, that is a
plan which I think is surrounded with considerable diffi-
culty. In the first place, we hardly know the amount or
value of that property. In the next place, it is wanted for
many other ecclesiastical purposes. And, lastly, and in
my mind the most important consideration is—it appears
to me a very objectionable principle to say that you will
provide for local wants and local circumstances out of the
general central fund. Whether the contribution be volun-
tary or obligatory, I think that it is a sound principle to
say that every place shall pay the expenses of its own re-
quirements. (Hear.) The proposed measure of the hon.
baronet omits to deal with this part of the question. It
simply declares the abandonment of the principle of a com-
pulsory rate. Well, sir, I think that the time has come
when that abandonment is necessary. (Cheers from the
dissenters.) I do not say that the doctrine of the new
system, of this voluntary system, is altogether free from
risks and difficulties. Those risks and difficulties have
been alluded to already. I see them as charly as any hon.
member here ; but I believe that there is no option now
left us. I believe that the country has already decided
this question ; and I am of opinion that it is our duty and
best wisdom to acquiesce in that decision. (Cheers.)
Mr. CROSSLEY said he thought that the measures
should not only relieve dissenters from the payment of
church rates, but also infidels, who would perhaps be in-
duced to return to the faith if those unjust exactions were
given up.
Mr. PHILIPPS said, he had a great wish to see this
question amicably settled. He had great faith in the volun-
tary principle for the building of churches, but he confessed
that he had no such faith in that principle for the repairs
of churches. Living in a country where the Church was
not only exposed to moral difficulties, but where dissenters
were very numerous, and churchmen very poor, when the
churches were going rapidly to decay, he felt it impossible
to overrate the enormous advantages of having a fund ap-
plicable to the dilapidations of churches which were con-
tinually occurring. That was a difficulty for which he sa
no remedy in any alteration of the law. Under those cir-
cumstances, he could not support the measure of the hon.
baronet.
Mr. R. PHILLIMORE, who was met by loud cries of
" divide, divide," said he had heard the speech of the noble
lord opposite with great pleasure. As the noble lord had
made allusion to the motion he (Mr. Phillimore) made last
year, he felt that he was called upon to make a few obser-
vations. He thought that honourable members should be
cautious in voting for a measure abolishing church rates
altogether without providing any substitute for them.
They should remember that, upon the other side of the
Tweed, church rates were paid by a large body of dissen-
ters who had made no appeal to Parliament. He had not
the slighteet intention in his proposition of inflicting the
least degree of pain upon the conscientious convictions
of those who differed from the Established Church.
He had on the 27th of March voted conscientiously upon
the question that the Roman Catholics of Ireland should
be exempted from the payment of ministers' money, and
there was hardly one nonconformist in that house who did
not vote for the same proposition. By the measure which
he proposed last year a man was not called upon to declare
his religious tenets or doctrines, but simple to declare
whether he made use of the church or not; and in case he
did make use of it, he was bound to pay for it. Could
anything be more fair, just, or reasonable ? He was so
anxious to have this matter settled, and aas so desirous
for the peace and welfare of the Church, and that it should
not receive any support from the dissenters, that he would
I consent to any proposition that was likely to relieve it from
that difficulty. Although he was anxious to exempt from
this burden all such as entertained conscientious objections
to the church rates, he could see no reason whatever why
church men should not pay those rates. So far from con-
gratulating ourselves that so many churches had been built,
we ought to take shame to ourselves that double the num-
ber had not been built, and that double the amount of
money had not been subscribed. He was one of the last
men to consent to any part of that money being applied to
relieving the wealthy churchmen from the obligation im-
posed upon them by the law as well as their own con-
sciences. The Church should, however, be the place in
which all distinctions should be forgotten, and the last
place in which those distinctions should be kept up in the
most offensive manner. For those reasons he was ready to
relieve dissenters, but not churchmen, from the payment
of church rates.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND believed it was of much less im-
portance whether a few more or a few less belonged to the
respective sects than that they should really understand
the essence of the question upon which they were going to
vote. It was impossible after what they had heard, and es-
pecially after the speech of the noble lord (Stanley) not to
see that this question was far snore extensive than the
payment of a few pounds in the shape of church rates by
dissenters. It was perfectly plain from the language held
this night, that every argument used against the payment
of church rates was equally valid against the support of the
Established Church (Hear) It was very easy to talk about
the delight of brethren dwelling together in unity and peace
When Edward Gibbon Wakefield was in Newgate, he found
amongst the thieves there was the same opinion as to the
origin of their trouble. And that origin was the magis-
trates, the judges, and the police. (Laughter.) Now, hon.
gentlemen who oppose the church rates think that the mat-
ter could be amicably settled if they were allowed to rob
the church with impunity. (No, no, from the dissenters.)
Why they talked of the necessity of this matter being ami-
cably settled, and yet there was not one of them who
talked of any other settlement whatever but an absolute
refusal to pay. (Hear, hear.) Well, if that was not having
their own way and a robbery of the Church with impttni ty,
he confessed he was at a loss to understand anything.
People were very fond of talking of their consciences, and
he had no objection to their indulging themselves in such a
way, but there was always a secret insinuation made that
no one else had a conscience. (Hear, hear, and laughter).
In all the countries in the world of which we have any
record we find that the Sovereign of that country did
establish, for the benefit of the subjects, a national reli-
gion. That national religion was necessarily the religion of
the Sovereign. That was their conscientious duty to do,
and the conscientious duty of every subject of the Sove-
reign was to assist that Sovereign in upholding all that was
necessary for the religious instruction of the subjects gene-
rally. (Hear.) But hon. members said that this blessed
thing called dissent should be exempted from the payment
of church rates. They should, however, recollect that peo-
ple must pay for luxuries. They could not keep a pack
of hounds or a box at the Opera without expense. (Laugh.
ter.) How could they expect to have the luxury of amus-
ing sermons from the bishop, or of attacking the Church
Establishment, without paying the miserable pittance of I
a church rate. (Cries of "Oh, oh.") But this was not all.
He said, with respect to church rates, what he had said
with respect to tithes, that there was a great cry for
their abolition, but the meaning of that was that every
landlord should put one-tenth more property into his
pocket than he had a right to. (Hear, hear.) If they abo-
lished tithe let the State take it. He said the same in re-
spect to church rates ' • for they bought their houses and
their lands subject to those burdens, and they should not
put these monies into their own pockets. Let the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer take them—they belong to the
State. If their consciences would not allow them to pay
this money to the State, he should still suspect that these
were not questions of conscience, but of money after all.
Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, I have not much addressed
the house upon this subject. It has been very frequently
brought before us, and I think the ground of it is hardly
changed in the course of the various discussions that have
taken place. It was during the Government of Lord Grey
a proposition was made to abolish church rates, but at
the same time to give the sum of 250,0001. from the Con-
solidated Fund for the repairs of the churches ; and like-
wise that there should be the means found for what is
called the furniture of the Church. In 1837 a bill was pro-
posed by the Government to which I belonged, by which
a certain portion of the revenue of the Church was to
be taken for the repairs of churches instead of the church
rates. Both of those measures were, however, violently
opposed. The first was violently opposed by the Dissenters,
who got up au agitation on the subject, and Lord Althorp
found it impossible to proceed with it. The second mea-
sure was opposed by much vehemence and pertinacity,
and the archdeacons throughout the country gut petitions
circulated everywhere which were numerously signed
against the measure. A division upon the subject took
place in this house, and there being only a majority of five
in favour of the measure, it was given up. I confess that
the rejection of both of those proposals, which apps red
to me to have been framed in a fair and impartial
spirit, has given ma but very slender hopes of any fair
adjustment of this question being effected. (Hear.) It
appears from what I hoard to-night that there is as little
disposition as there ever was at any former time to con-
sent to what is called a compromise upon this subject.
Some hon. gentlemen approach the Church with e very kind
of blandishment with a view of inducing it to consent to
to give up the church-rates. They say "Your church has the
prettiest voice in the world ; and if it exerted it for the
purpose of persuasion, every one would at once yield to its
influence " Theysay " If you would only drop that which
you have got in your beak, the body that is opposed
to you be happy to take it." (Laughter.) There
are others who approach the church in another tone alto-
gether. They say it is an institution that is rotten to
the core; it was opposed to the spirit of the age, and no-
thing but thin blindness of the members of the Church pre-
vents thou Lam 300illg that that Churohis .doomed to de.

measure would pass through Parliament I own I have very
great doubts. lam afi aid that no measure could be found
which would not meet with the opposition either of the
Church on the one side or of the Dissenters on the other.
I am afraid that it will be, not only difficult, but almost
impossible to frame a measure which, founded on prin-
ciples of justica and impartiality, would meet with general
approval and support. I know the pains that are taken
by those who agitate the country, whether they belong to
the Church or whether they belong to the dissenting bodies
—I know the pains that are taken to defeat measures
which seem measures of compromise and of equal justice to
both parties. I have found with regard to measures which
I thought most beneficial to the Church, that a hot oppo-
sition has been offered to them on the part of the Church,
and that those measures have been almost defeated by
that opposition; and I am bound to confess, on the other
hand, that measures which I thought beneficial to the
Dissenters, but which in their opinion tended to give too
much to the Church, have been vehemently opposed on
their parts. In fact, we live in times when these differ-
eneas--differences sometimes on points of Church govern-
ment which are not very considerable in themselves, and
differences at other times on questions of the greatest im-
portance with regard to religious belief—l say we live in
times when differences of one or other of these characters
divide this couutry and produce tho most violent excite-
ment, and an exhibition of the greatest array of party
passion and antagonism. Such ueing the case, I am not
sanguine with regard to the success of any measure which
the Government might frame, and which they might hope
to introduce in another session of Parliament. But this I
will say, that I should think that if I were to give
my willing assent to a bill for totally abolishing church
rates, without any sort of compensation or any sort of mo-
dification, I should be setting the example of a concession
very dangerous to the Church Establishment, and when I
say tho Church Establishment, I believe I may say to the
general interests of the country. (Cheers.)
The house then divided—

For the introduction of the bill
Against it
Majority
The announcement of the numbers was followed by con-
siderable cheering.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill, and it was
subsequently read a first time.
The Industrial and Provident Societies Bill passed
through committee.

The Churc 11 1110' Acts Amendment Bill, as amended,
1113-7 o
was considered and agreed to.
The report of the committee of ways and means was re-
ceived.

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MAY -24, 1854.