The Sun.
London, England, 1854-03-22 00:00:00

1M01,11F.....................
allies, our competitors, or our rivals." The noble lord ; Majesty's present advisers, the moment
they give the coun-
said more than that; he said, "Not only do I believe that try satisfactory proof that they have any confidence in each
Turkey is as active as she was, but I believe she is abso- other. (Cheers and laughter.)
lutely progressive. Give her e fair triali; her maintenance The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER —Mr,
is easy, and is most profitable to the interests of England, to Speaker, if there be now present any gentleman who, like
the cause of freedom, and to the civilisation of the world. myself, have sat in this house to hear this debate, since
All the highest impulses that should influence men ought o
half-past five ', I think they will admit that, at least, to induce them to support at this moment the indepen- it has served oneclock useful purpose, for it has illustrated
dance and integrity of Turkey." Loud cheers followed the more signally than any discussion that I can remember the
speech of the noble lord. Well, sir, what happened a truly English principle of freedom of debate. (A laugh.)
short time after that ? Why, air, there was the statesman Sir, it being my dutyto noticeon the part of the Government
whose conduct I have had occasion to criticise this evening, the topics that might come under the view of hon. gentlemen
and to whom I little thought, when I first rose, I should in the course of the evening, it has occured to me whether
have to refer in connection with another subject ;he went I should not shorten my labour if, instead of trying to
about the country and paid a visit to the great commercial enumerate the topics which have been detailed to-night, I
city of Manchester, at a time when there was great de- should take the negative side of the question, and refer to
pression in the country with respect to the affairs of Tur- those comparatively few subjects which have not been
key, and when men with resolute minds began to think noticed. Why, sir, we have had—and these are only a
that that was occurring which would prove most fatal to few of the principal questions—the right hon. gentleman
. the supremacy of this country, and to the cause of justice, of says that the hour is still inconveniently early, I am
truth, and of freedom. What did the right hon. gentle- afraid it would not do forme to act upon that assumption,
man say upon that occasion? Did he agree with the secre.. but I have a certain duty to discharge—we have had die-
tary of State ? Not at all. He said, "Things look very bad, cussed to-night savings banks and the management of the
but what can you expect ? You must prepare yourselves for great fund connected with them, the constitution of the
the worst. The independence and integrity of Turkey, national debt commission, the balances in the Exchequer,
which people talk about, are not facts—they are phantasies the interest on the policy with respect to Exchequer-bills,
and phantoms. You must not consider the independenceand the relations of the Government and the Bank, the pro-
integrity of Turkey as anything like European questions?' per rules with regard to deficieucy bills, the plan for the
Why, sir, the right hon. gentleman quibbled away the government of the national debt, the Bank Act of
independence and integrity of Turkey—(hear, hear)—and 1844, the mode of establishing a currency free from
he seemed to have in view that plan of partition which has the influence of foreign exchanges, the comparative merits
but recently come to our knowledge. (Cheers.) And this of direct and indirect taxation, the foreign policy of
is the minister of finance who to-night is going to double the Government, and the education of the country. (Hear,
the income tax in order to maintain the independence and hear, and laughter.) And there is yet, sir, one other sub-
integrity ofTurkey. (Cheers.) lam challenged to propose a ject which has been touched slightly ; here and there, there
vote of no confidence is the Government. Why, sir, the has been a faint allusion just perceptible to the amendment
• noble Secretary of State in the other house of Parliament of the hon. baronet. (Cheers and laughter.) The right
told us the other night what we were going to fight for, hon. gentleman who has just sat down has closed his speech
and I was grateful for a moment to a member of her Ma- with an allusion to that amendment, and doeanot seem to
jetty's Government. He said, "we are going to fight for like to challenge a vote of the house upon the financial
the rights of the Christian subjects of the Porte. That is propositions of the Government —(Ministerial cheers),—
our cense. We are resolved, and we shall stipulate, that more than upon any others of their acts. But the right
there shall be equality of rights and privileges between the hon. gentleman h:.s, in the exercise of his undoubted
Christian subjects and all other subjects of the Porte." I right, thought fit to discuss at large the conduct of the
believe loud cheers followed that speech also. What hap- Government; and here I may refer to the language of the
pened the neat day e The noble lord the Secretary of State right hon. gentleman, when he charged me with having
in this house, who is supposed to have some knowledge of treated him with unseemly and dircourteous taunts. Sir,
our foreign policy, said in the most distinct way,
and in Ido not think that that was a just charge on the part of
tones that he knew would re-echo through all Europe, that the right hon. gentleman. In replying to the right hon.
he did not imagine for a moment that any man would en- gentleman on a former night, I did, as I shall to-night
tertain the idea of our obtaining privileges for the Christian take the liberty of doing, use the legitimate freedom of
subjects of the Sultan—that that would be acting as badly debate ; and Ido not think that the right hon. gentleman
as the Emperor of Russia himself—and that if we obtained is the man, of all others, who has been sparing in his sp-
an equality of privileges between the different subjects of peal to that freedom and that right, whether in reference
the Sultan, we should put an end to the Turkish empire. to things or persons. (Loud cheers.) But, sir, if the sight
And yet, when those gentlemen have no confidence in their hon. gentleman had cause to find fault with me for un-
mutual opinions, lamto be taunted and told it is my duty seemly and discourteous taunts, arising out of the heat of
to propose that the House of Commons shall so stultify temper, why did not the right hon. gentleman do what
itself that we are absolutely to vote that we have no con- any other man would have done, namely, rise in his place
fidence in them. But is that all ? The noble lord the leader in this house and complain—if he did not think it right,
of this house likewise described the war in which we are sir, to appeal to you—why did he not complain of it on
going to embark. He described the war as a holy war—as the spot, why did he retain this grievance and this grudge
a just war—a war for justice, for truth, and for public in his bosom for a fortnight, to make use of it in one of
freeedom—and in a manner which I admired, in a most so- his thousand declamatory periods ? (Cheers.) Sir, I tell
lemn and fittinmanner, he invoked the name of the Most the right hon. gentleman that if I have been guilty of
High upon that Wat happened the next night in an- such taunts I deeply regret it—l regret it with reference
other pe ? Why, sir, the leader of that house told us, I to him or to any other man, and I am sorry he did not
believe, that he thought that war was .not yet inevitable, give me an earlier opportunity of saying so, when I could
and that in his opinion war was a curse. Sir, if it be a war tell whether or not there was any foundation for the
for justice, for truth, and for public liberty—a war to arrest charge. Having said thus much, I pass to graver matters.
the progress of a colossal despotism, to maintain the inte- (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, thci right hon. gentleman
rests of this country, and to secure and promote the pro- says that he guards himself against being supposed to ap-
gresa of civilisation, it is not a curse ; but if it be not for prove of the financial propositions of the Government. Sir,
those objects, then I say the noble lord is not justified in there is not much occasion for the right hon. gentleman to
counselling his Sovereign to embark in it. Such is your guard himself on that subject. lam not aware of any fi-
position upon the Turkish question—upon a question which nancial proposition—l might say of any proposition—but
we are told confidentially, alone keeps you together as a at any rate lam not aware of any financial proposition,
Ministry. (Cheers.) There are similar differences among great or small, that has been made by the present Govern-
these gentlemen upon other subjects; but when a nation ment, which has had the good fortune to meet the appro-
is at war, its Government should not be disturbed ! I bation of the right hon. gentleman ; and with, I think,
would like to know how the war is to be carried on with one exception, lam scarcely aware of any attempt to in-
efficiency and success by men who have not settled what pose a tax upon the country which the right hon. gentle-
the object of the war is. The war has been brought about man has not resisted, or of any attempt to remove a tax,
by two opposite opinions in the Cabinet. (Cheers.) That and diminish the resources of the Exchequer, which the
has led to all the vacillation, all the perplexity, all the fit- right hon. gentleman has not supported. The right hon.
fulness, all the timidity, and all the occasional violence gentleman sometimes speaks of new policies. Sir, until the
that have occurred. (Cheers.) If the noble lord the leader time of the entleman
right hon. g, tho subject f finance,
of this hove—l speak my solemn conviction—had re- during my recollection, has been dealt with ino a manner
mained minister of this country—if the noble lord the Se- somewhat distinct from general politics, because it has been
cretary of State, who is not here, had been minister of this felt that there is a tenderness in the subject of the public
country—if Lord Derby had continued minister of this debt, and an importance in maintainingthe resourcesof the
country—nay, if Lord Aberdeen—l wish to state the case Exchequer, and the consequence of that conviction has been
fairly—had been minister of this country, with a sympa- until within the last twelve months, a general union, as a
thising Cabinet, there would have been no war. (Hear.) general rule, in maintaining the ways and means which
It hen coalition war. (Cheers.) Rival opinions, contrary are necessary to carry on the public service. The right
politics, and discordant systems have produced that vacil- hon. gentleman has thought fit to reverse that rule. The
lation and perplexity, that at last you are going to war right hon. gentleman will not support the hon. baronet,
with an opponent who does not want to fight, and you are who, I know, has made his motion entirely independently,
unwilling to encounter him. (Cheers.) What a mess for but he still says that he reserves to himself the liberty of
a great country. (Cheers and laughter.) And this brought objecting to the financial propositions of the Government;
about by the splendid administrative talents of the gentle- and upon what does he found himself ? He founds him-
mezi opposite. (Cheers.) What, sir, is your interest on self upon this most extraordinary reason, that he does not
Exchequer-bills, or your loss of some 35,0001, compared to consider there is any necessity proved for an increas of
that? The financial faux pas of the Chancellor of the taxation, for he says he does not know whether woe are
Exchequer may soon be forgotten, and even forgiven, going to war, or for what we are going to war. Why, sir,
What is the value of his conversion scheme compared to his ignorance for what we are going to war has nothing
'his duplication of the income tax, and to this terrible whatever to do with the necessity for an increase of taxa-
prospect of war, brought about by the combination of tion. (Hear, hear.) He knows this—he knows that he has
geniuses opposite me, and brought about absolutely by the himself been a party to votes which have raised the
amount of their talents and the discordancy of their estimated expenditure of the country three millions
opinions ? (Cheers and laughter.) But then, they say, if above the estimated revenue; and having himself been
we criticise their policy, we are bound immediately to a party to these votes, he says that he cannot under-
come forward and propose a vote of no confidence in take to admit that there is any necessity for increased
them. I tell them again I will not propose a vote of no taxation. Well, sir, the right hon. gentleman is not con-
confidence in men who prove to me every hour that they tented with thatmore limited field of discussion upon which
have no confidence in each other. Sir, I have tried them he entered in the earlier part of his speech, and in which I
upon the greatest of all questions—the question of peace am bound to say he expatiated with a skill and a force that
or war; but there are others almost equally great, upon are rarely equalled in debate. The right hon. gentleman,
which they may be tested. Why don't you proceed with under the influence I think of some malignant spirit—l
your Reform Bill ? (Cheers.) That seems at the first mean malignant as respects himself—must forsooth enter
Wartsight the only question which you could put in the same upon that most ill-omened discussion of the question of
category with the questions of foreign policy. Peace or confidence in her Majesty's Government. The right hon.
the disposition and distribution of political power— gentleman, who was not challenged at all in the matter,
these are the great and august matters with which it be- must go into a discussion of why he would not propose a
comes statesmen to deal. These are the policies upon the vote of want of confidence in her Majesty's Government.
recommendation of which men gain the confidence of na- He is entitled without doubt to use his own discretion on
tions. It is the sympathy of nations with statesmen who that subject. If he thinks it right not to move a vote of
have opinions upon those subjects which entitles them to want of confidence in the Government, I really believe ho
hold their position. When you have enunciated a policy has good reasons for refraining—(hear)—but whether he
to a great community—when you have told them that you has good reasons or not—whether he chooses to move any
can prosecute a war with vigour in the vindication of great such vote or not, lam perfectly at a loss to conceive what
principles—when you can tell them that you can secure could have put it into his head to give such reasons as he
peace at home by arrangements which will last—then the has done to-night for abstaining from proposing a vote of
nation will rally rounlyou. When a great statesman de- want of confidence. Why, sir, what reason could there bo
dares that he sees and has deeply considered the signs of better than those he assigns, which should make him move
the times, and has studied with the patient and fanciful such a vote ? Ho says he will move a vote of want of con-
analysis that becomes a profound and disciplined Mind the fidence in the Government when he sees the slightest proof
condition of the community—when ho declares that the that the Geyer/mutt have confidence in themselves—have
existing disposition of power is injurious to the permanent confidence in one another. Ought votes of want of
mid*
intereets of the country, and that he is of opinion that a deuce then to be spared, ought men to cont in office
change should take place, and thatclasses who are not now because they are so totally unfit to dischargeinue public duties
enfranchised shall be called into &participation of political that even among themselves they do not exhibit a tolerable
power—the man who says these things has a right to rally amount of agreement and mutual confidence. (Hear, hear.)
round him great crowds of his fellow-men; but he must The right hon. gentleman says her Majesty's Government
not say such things idly—he must not trifle with the public differ upon every vital question—they differ upon the Re-
conviction and the public feeling upon such subjects, form Bill—they differ about the Protestant dissenters—
(Hear.) When I know that this Cabinet is an incoherent they differ about the Protestant cause—they differ about
council upon these subjects—when I know that upon such their foreign policy—they differ, in short, about every
questions as peace or war, and the disposition and distri- question of interest. The head of the Government, he
bntion of political power, there are not two men among says, has no confidence in the leader of the House of Corn-
them who have the same opinion, that there are not two mons—the leader of the House of Commons has no con-
men among them who have confidence in each other, I re- fidence in the head of the Government—the Chancellor of
ceive the cold taunt and frigid counsel that it becomes me, the Exchequer has no confidence in any of his colleagues,
as the humble leader of a too indulgent party—(a laugh)— and none of his colleagues have any confidence in him,
to propose a vote of no confidence in her Majesty's Ministers (Laughter.) And that being the state of the case, and we,
with the indifference,.vhich it deserves. (Cheers,) Sir, there miserable and unworthy men, being here usurping the
, are few tests so great as those I have mentioned—there functions and aping the character of a Government.
are few so important— but there are some subjects that (" Hear, hear," from Colonel Sibthorp, followed by general
may be fairly evoked with them. There is one subject laughter.) The right hon. gentleman says, for these rea-
which, tumultuous as is the excitement of a state of wale sons, because you are so miserable, because yon are so dis-
fare, and however elevated may be the feelings of men who united, because you are so degraded, I will at this great
are summoned to the exercise of political power, may well crisis of the fortunes of England leave you in place, where
be considered as of the greatest importance. No man will you are to govern the destinies of the country. (Cheers.)
say that the education of a nation is not a subject which Why, sir, I tell the right hon. gentleman that, if I pos.
may rank with the highest class of those that occupy the sessed his great powers of mind and oratory, I would rather
attention of a minister. Well, sir, our present statesmen have been silent altogether on such a subject, than, after
founded their ministry upon a pledge to bring forward a having made such an argument, have conducted it to such
scheme of national education. Is there any confidence a recreant conclusion. (Loud cheers.) Sir, notwithstand-
among you upon the subject of national education ? (Hear, ing the hour, lam afraid I must occupy at rate about
hear, hear.) Why, sir, I will take an illustration from one quarter of the time which the hon. gentleman has
only a small portion of that great theme. What happened taken up, with some remarks in answer to those which he
the other night ? We had before us merely a plan for has made ; and I go as directly as I can to two points on
the reform of a university. What occurred then ? We which he made charges against my own department. The
had the reform of the university brought forward by the right hon. gentleman impugns the policy that I have felt
leader of this house. He turned round to his faithful and it my duty to pursue, in lowering at an early period in the
consistent supporters, the Dissenters of England. (A laugh.) year the interest on Exchequer Bills; and he says that
Their eyes were fixed upon him—their mouths were open. there were circumstances that had then occurred that
(Laughter.) They hung upon his accents. Reform
fol- should have shown me the impropriety of that measure,
lowed reform—change coursed after change—and at the How fortunate it is, sir, that hon. gentlemen, so wise
' end he turned round and said, the most
important and after the fact, did not then take notice of the circum-
the most necessary of all reforms is, that you, the Dissen- stances that had then occurred. (Cheers.) They are now
ters of England, should share the advantages of them. I willing with retrospective finger to point them out. At
am faithful to you. My feelings towards you are the same the time those circumstances were not so visible, and the
as they were 20 years ago—but then my colleague the right hon. gentleman knows perfectly well that, although
member for the University will not listen to your claims, on this subject, like many other subjects of discussion, he
(A laugh.) Well then, sir, I ask, if that is the case, can himself was not indisposed to take objection, he took no
there be any confidence among the different members of objection himself at that time. (Hear.) sir, the right
the Cabinet upon the subject of education ? There ma be fifty (Cheers,) hon. gentleman occupied a long period of time in investi-
y topics upon which we can prove a dif- gating a matter of no moment whatever. He stated that I
Terence of opinion among her Majesty's Ministers, but they laid claim to a saving 0f20,000/. on the interest on Exchequer
are, in comparison with the great questions of peace or Bills. Why, sir, what I stated was this. I said at the
war, the disposition and distribution of political power, time thatit was anincidentalobservation, scarcely touching
and the education of a nation, so small and petty that I the substance of the case. I stated that the actual payment
seannot condescend to touch them. There is only one other on Exchequer-bills would be less this year by a certain
eisubject equal to those greet themes—nay, I may say it is sum than the same pa: went was last year. But I men-
,rosn Jan:ere important than any of them. That is the tioned that the number of Exchequer-bilis this year was
te t t cause It is a subject which surely greatly reduced. And it has been in dressing out such a subject
interests th peep. le of this country; it is a theme which as this, and in drawing his conclusions from it, that the
time
eexacziotzlegreat enthusiasm. What happened a short right hen- gentleman has thought fit to spend the time of
took an earl The noble lord the leader of this house the house. Now, the payments in the year are no test of
vernment toys
pportunity, after the formation of the Go- the merits of a policy. Does the right hon. gentleman
upon the p Press his opinions in the House of Commons mean to say or not that lam responsible for the state of
not a raft, Whot temper of the Papacy. The noble lord is things that change the money market, and make it desirable
noble lord is can be suspected of being a bigot ; the to raise the rate of interest on Exchequer-bills in the an-
mind, or of Wanting any enlightened views; the noble lord has been a loss, and that I said on the contrary that the
spirit of the _
aphe considered the hostile and pernicious sum payable on Exchequer-bills would be less this year;
oman cathlh'ijeaaeat the present day, and he laid of the bat if the sum paid upon them were double it would have
reign prince, that hereihn this country, devoted to a fo- nothing to do with this point, viz., the imprudence of
vourable to the put.celieved that its progress was not fa- Ilowering the rate of interest in the spring. What are the
Well, what happen:l', liberty of this country. (Hear.) circumstances which the right hon. gentleman quoted?
breathed these words ele-VS: Y, the noble lord hail hardly He says, What was the state of the funds, what was the
was discovered that they had state of the Bank discounts, and what was the state of the
given offence to those eneo"cht
his NittainlY cannot be described as bullion in the country ? The funds had fallen, the rate of
the most eminent of
next day ? The present fei ".T.• What happened the discount had risen within a fraction from 2to 3 per cent.,
upon the noble lord to eeei •
me minister of England calls and the bullion had changed from 22 millions to 19; and
r Ma his .
and writes a letter to the world to s expressions—(hear)— he argues that, because each of these was a little lower
pryri that the opinions of than before, therefore it was wrong in me to make any
the noble lord on what I call the
me,
nighttoapfpteursition cheers and
_testant cause are not such attempt as I made. Does the right hon. gentleman
shared by many of his colleagues.
mean to lay down the general principle that no financial
laughter.) Yet you taunt
do not propose a vote of want of confideun.ght, because I operation aiming at a reduction of interest ought ever to
6 ill be tried under any circumstances excepting at the very
Government, when I show you that upon J., „ You as a
taut topics, upon the question of peace ei. w" these impor- moment which is the most favourable—not at a favourable
pun the or even at a highly favourable moment, but at a moment
question of the disposition and distributionar4n
Political absolutely mare favourable than any other moment, either
power—upon national education —upon th© protestant before or after it. Look at the consequence of the doctrine
cause, you are entirely at variance, and have „anal
ence of the right hon. gentleman. The Bank may raise and
Whatever in each other. No, sir, I shall not feel it lower its rate of interest from week to week—it can do
duty to make this proposition. I ought to remeer my
Precisely as it ph saes; but the Chancellor of the Exche-
we have a motion before us which we must decide.(er„it
Liz, when he fixes the rate of interest on Exchequer-
eal cheers.) Everything which I have said has been strictl;
must fix it for twelve months at a time.
applicable to that motion. (Cheers and counter cheers.) Thew'
fax e you to insure, when you determine the
Sir, I have shown you that the condition of the finances is rate
favourablenterest on x E chequer-bills, that the apex of
such that I do not understand how the Chancellor of the °
circumstances will be at a given time,
Exchequer can possibly meet his engagements at the end and neither eore nor after it. Now, I proceeded, with
of the financial year, and yet my hnonrable friend the i regard to Exchequer hills upon deliberate conclusions,
! if the right hon. oentl
member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby) asks me to in- I and I contend that the 're v full erase
I hope,
crease his embarrassments. I think the roposition of my
ineeaan thinks ‘as
it not full y justi-
honourable friend, viewed by itself, laps sound propo- I fled, that, inateaeof roman
0. himself‘oaajl iscassions.and
sition. I think it an unprecedented thing to make a declamations, -which warnerilna convenient f
.however
occupying time,
single levy of a tax at the beginning of the year, but as I but which do not tend t
1 k
ne forward with great anxiety to the state of the right indisposed to move a vote aonfy he may be
issue, .
want of confidence—l hope
hon• gentleman's finances, I must express great unwilling- he will try at any rate to this matter to a fair issue.
flees to take any step, however te that. Sir, I proceeded upo bring
I trust ep, slightly, to aggrava ndeliberate conviction, and I am
my hon. friend will hesitate before he asks the bound to tell the right hon. gentleman, what I have never
opinion of the house upon that subject. (Cheers and I said before, bu! in continuance of this discussion lam
eounter cheers.) Does the hgentlemen opposite wish compelled to say it---that had the • hgentleman
on.
himself, when he held the seals of rig
t ;hon. gen
of
the
of the pose a vote of no confidence in the state ,
finances of the Chancellor 9 I Exchequer, been in any position of the Chancellor . .
from the Mini • of the Exchequer. (Cheers
' word in the permanence as a Minis-
atonal benches•) Well, thenel will, upon I ter, using the qualified sense which attaches
fair conditions, such as I . to an ordinary Government in this
approve of, ace® such the am sure every gentleman will 'to
himself long before to have done that pountry7he oug,
et challenge; and I pledge myself to
which I did; and he
ProPon iia thill Ahhee a t f t f
ye e 9 wan o confidence in her i would havebeen guilty of a scandalous waste of the public

funds if he had renewed Exchequer-bills at the same high ii the amount of deficiency bills which will be brought to
rate of interest as they bore in June, 1852. In June, 1852, charge in the next quarter is that it will be from 4,000,0001.
Exchequer bills were at 755., and they fell to 555., and to 4,500,0001. ; and, as I have said upon a former occasion,
therefore the rate of interest was lowered. .These are bills I consider this to be a larger amount than it is desirable
running for twelve months, and the interest was 13d. per to have permanently. I should say that if the amount
day, or 455. as the interest for the whole of the year, which, called for permanently was 2,000,0001. or 2,500,0001., it
after deducting income tax, came to 435. Well, then, the would bo a very good arrangement. Then, of course, it
premium on these bills—which you will recollect are re- would be the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to
deemable at par at the expiration of the year—was more make use of such means as he has at command to reduce
than equal to the whole interest, and yet the right hon. that amount from quarter to quarter; and it would be in
gentleman says that that was not a state of things which his power, if the finances of the country are kept a
called for my interference. (Hear, hear.) Sir, fsay it is of soundness, as I believe they will be by the carein andstate wis-
the right of the public, to borrow upon the best terms that dom of the House of Commons, to effect that purpose in 3or
it can; the necessary restraints of law place the public at 4 quarters. Ido not wish it to be understood b any means
great disadvantage in its dealings with the Bank and that the amount of deficiency bills now called fy or is either
other parties ' • and on account of these great advantages unprecedented or rare. If I look back to the years from
inherent in the nature of their position, it is still more 1840 to 184'3, I find the amounts during that period com-
the essential obligation of the Chancellor of the Ex- monly varied from 4,000.0001. as a minimum to 7,000,0001.
chequer to borrow for the public en the best terms and 8,000,000/. and even more. This, being combined
that he can. Now, I say that the time I made the re- with a deficit, is an impolitic, an undue, and a dangerous
duction to Id. a day was the proper time for doing so, practice. But Igo further back. You seem to think
and I prove it by saying that I did it. The honourable that there can be no deficiency bills except as an indica-
member for Peterborough, with less attention to accuracy tion of an unsound state of the revenue, of weakness in
than I should have expected from his position, says that I public credit, and of deranged trade, But I will take the
reduced the interest to lel., and the bills then fell to a dis- years 1832, 18.3, 1834, and 1835, to show the fallacy of
count. Well, was there anything that intervened between that opinion, because every one of those years was pro-
those events? Does the hon. gentleman mean to say that sperous ; they were each a year of surplus revenue, of a
they fell to a discount when I reduced the interest? Sir, sound state of public credit, and of a prosperous state of
the reduction of the interest was announced in the second trade. 1n1832 the smallestamount of deficiency bills brought
week in February ; and here are the prices of Exchequer- to eh trge was 3,353,000/., and the largest 7,756,000/. ;in
bills on the business day of each m.nth, and the Ist of 1833 the minimum was 4,830,0001., and maximum
June is the earliest of the clays on which there is the 7,230,000/. ;in 1834 the minimum W 3.4 4,480,030/., and
slightest mention of a discount. Therefore, I say the hon. the maximum 6,757,000/. ; in 1835 the minimum was
member is seriously in error on this matter, because 3,590,000/. and the maximum was 6,500,003/. The ave-
for three months after the reduction of the interest the rage of the minimum was 3,878,000/. ; the average of the
Exchequer-bills remained at a premium, and therefore the maximum 6,967,0001. Is then, 3, 750,000/., which is about
fair inference is, that when they came to a discount the the total amount brought to charge in this quarter, to ire
change took place on account of the increasing pressure on considered an alarming amount, b t the mi-
the money market, and not- on account of the reduction. mum of these sound and prosperous eing
yearsless ? Ihan
think not
I propose to adopt what I think is a fair mode of dealing Sir, we must go to book upon these subjects. It will not
with this question. The right hon. gentleman, who was do to declaim upon them. the vague and amusing generali-
se large and full on such a multitude of points of perfect ties. We must look at these things as practical men, and
unimportance, which he dressed and decked out with a doing so, I say that the amount brought to charge is not an
finery belonging to himself, passed over in total silence excessive amount. The hon. and learned member for
and oblivion those other matters that were not so conve- Wallingford (Mr. Melina) had been pleased to say he will
nient for him to notice. I made a reference when we dis- not be hard upon mie,'let that he wishes me to understand
cussed this subject before, which I think a fair reference, that matters of finance are very impertent and delicate
and one calculated to bring this question to an issue ; be- operations. Sir, I am deeply indebted to the hon. and
cause the charge made against me, if I understand it, is, learned gentleman for a lesson of a nature so far removed
that by an imprudent reduction in the rate of interest on from my common education that I never could have hoped
Exchequer-bills last spring I caused a violent reaction and to have attained to its possession except through his
an increase of expense. Well, then, if that be the case, kindness. (A laugh.) There is, however, one point
what I say is, that I will look to a neighbouring country. more, which appears to have been cue that hit the fancy
You say I produced a violent reaction - that I am now of the right hon. gentleman. It was not a question of
paying (and it is true) double the rate of interest that I the arguneentune ad hentinent ;but he said ' these are
was paying twelve months ago ; and the reason you opinions merely," and thou he- proceeded to draw a
give—which is not true—is, that the reduction I made strong and glaring contrast between a man's opinions
was too low. Well, !now, what was the state of the and his conduct. Opinions are nothing; conduct is every-
case twelve menthe ago in France? Twelve months thing. Then what is the use of opinions? I apprehend
ago the rate of interest on one class of French they are intended to have some influence. I take it for
Exchequer-bills was 13 per cent. ; and I think I may granted that the man who stands in the place where I now
say, with all due respect, that it was not a hope- stands eucupYilig the office of minister of finance, and less case case for the English Government to expect that ing an opinion upon finance, is not to be allowed suese-
their bills should float for longer dates, at the same rate of quently to evade the consequences of that opinion by say-
interest, with the Exchequer-bills of the Government of ing that he did not act upon it. It was his opinion; and I
France. You say I would not have required to double the will suppose it was his-sincere opinion. If it was his sin-
rate of interest unless I had first reduced that rate of in. care opinion, it had the weight of his authority, and lam
terest too low. Well, but look at the case of France. The entitled to presume that tuityoffed he would
Exchequer-bills, which were at the rate of 13 per cent. be prepared to act upon it. (Hear.) How can he evade
meryssuelfch soibr'seravt
twelve months ago, only a few days ago were raised to 4 ttheencnsoninsenqteusentocetswefoiot,:lonlkfi)nadft
aatiloantes haosulr
per cent. So that 'while I have to double the rate of in-
terest on Exchequer-bills' the French Government had have thought it neces to ke to the house in the to treble treble the rate of interest on their Exchequer.hills. sitionof having todealsa witry ma
mo
h the tion of the hon. baronet.
Now I shall trouble the right honourable gentleman for To that motion I have not yet made the slightest allusion.
an explanation of that fact, when he next sets him- In that respect I have followed the example of all who have
self to complain of my imprudent reduction as having gone before me—(a laugh)—I have been equally vicious in
doubled the rate of reduction on the rate of interest on the principle, but I trust it will be allowed that I shall be
Exchequer-bills. (Cheers.) Sir, it is not necessary for me more moderate in degree. In a very few sentences I will
to enter at great detail into these matters. The right hon. say why I cannot agree to the motion--a motion which has
gentleman spoke in the most alarming terms of the formi. been made:the battle-field for all sorts of subjects, though
dable accumulation of deficiency bills. He it might be the honourable baronet brought it forward in a straight-
very true that we had saved 10,0001. or 20,0001. on Ex- forward way, and with a proper anti earnest conviction
chequer-bills ; but what was that to the very serious loss that in doing so he is only doing his duty. It is impossible
which the country would sustain on the deficiency bills to accede to the motion, because the object of the Govern-
which that saving rendered necessary? Sir, here are the meut has been to reconcile together several purposes that
returns of the deficiency bills for the three last quarters, might be considered in conflict. with one another. We
being all that have yet been made up. The cost on deft- might have attempted to form an estimate of the year's ex-
ciency bills for the first of these quarters was 621.
,• for the penditure. If we had done so—if we had taken a year's
second, 7701.; for the third, 481/. (Great laughter and estimate of war expenditure— we must have asked the
cheering.) A sum amounting to between 1,000/, and house for a very large sum ; and if we had asked for a very
1,2001. is the whole amount of charge caused by these large
stun, we might have asked for a sum greatly beyond
tremendous and overwhelmingdeficiency bills. (Renewed that which the exigencies of
theavar may require ; for I will
cheering.) The right hon. gentleman, I confess, some- not pretend to say, looking at the powerful combinations
times appears tome, in the heat, or, at least, in the force that have been formed, that it is impossible to bring the
which he brings to bear upon these discussions, to dilate war to a close within a short time. We have thought it
upon these subjects in a manner which might tend to cause wise to take warning by the experience of our predecessors;
great alarm in the public mind. I remember, sir, on former and to come to this house anti say, "We will leave the
occasions when questions relating to the public credit were power in your hands by asking only sufficient for a
discussed,' it was done with great reserve. At a time when limited term. We say, " You are going to sit for four or
not more than 900,0001. remained as a balance in the Ex- five months ;'and we will reserve to ourselves the oppor-
chequer, to meet the demands of the next quarter day, the tunity andltO you thepowerof considering towards the close
fact was alluded to, indeed, but the allusion was made in of that period the appearance of public affairs, and the
grave and sober terms, by no means in thoseorations which probable demand that will be made upon the Exchequer
we are now accustomed to hear night after night; and I for expenditure on the war. " But by taking the other
must confess that at first serious alarm entered my mind, course we must have asked for a suin that would have been
when I heard, and admired while I heard, the brilliant deemed extravagant, and that' we should
have been told
oratory of the right hon. gentleman ; but at the same time we were calling for money which we were not sure we
serious apprehensions entered my mind, lest, knowing the should want. What did Mr. Pitt do ? He brought in his
high authority of the speaker, alarm should seize upon the budget early in the year—the first year of the French war.
public mind. I said, here is my predecessor in office tell- He produced a budget for the whole year; and he took for
ing the public that it is impossible for the Chancellor of his extraordinary expenditure, 1,250,0031. For the period
the Exchequer to meet his engagements next quarter day, of a whole year no more was heard mewl the subject; and
Sir, that might have caused great alarm among gentle- in the next year Mr. Pitt informed the house that, besides
men in the City. The last time when the right honour- having absorbed the 1,250,0001., he had laid out 6,000,000/.
able gentleman favoured us with these displays—I know and that there had been extra expenses, unprovidfel for by
not how it may be to-morrow—(laughter)—but the last the votes of Parliament, amounting to about 5,030,00te .
time lie so favoured us was on the 6th of March. On the Sir, that would not be a satisfactory state of things for this
7th, I was curious to know what was the effect of his house at this time of day. It was, therefore, felt to be our
speech, and I found that the Consols, which on the 6th duty to inform the house of the demaudsmatle upon us. In
stood at from 9oil to 91, stood on the 7th at from 91 to order that we might deal with the house in freedom and
915. (Roars of laughter.) After all the dark anticipa- confidence, we put them in possession of our present wants,
Lions I had formed, sir, I confess this proved to me no leaving it to the house to provide for further emergencies.
inconsiderable relief. (Cheers.) I come to the It was, therefore, necessary to ask the house, as we
main questions on which the right hen.gentleman has are now doing, to make provision for six months' expendi-
challenged me—the two main topics in his speech—one of tore by six months' taxation. If we had mike I for the
which was the abortive action upon the funded debt, and expenses of six months' war upon twelve months' taxation,
the other the state of the balances in the Exchequer. Here the hon. baronet will see at once the position in which we
the right hon. gentleman marshalled against me a great should have been placed in relation to the great object of
array of premonitory sentences, and after a long accurau- making the expenses of the year to be paid within the year.
lation of epithets, he wound up with the
declaration that Much has been said tending to disparage the principle of
it was absolute madness—I think those were the words— raising the supplies for the year within the year ;
and
absolute madness to present any plan for the redaction of words have been used which seemed to indicate an inten-
the interest on the national debt last March. Bat the tion—perhaps not yet formed, but which may grow into
right hon. gentleman forgets that I referred him before substantive and distinct develeprnent—of endeavouring to
to his own opinions. (Expressions of dissent from Mr. induce the house to depart from that most sound principle.
Disraeli.) No, he remembers that, but he forgets what Ido not intend now to discuss
the obligations of the house
the opinions were to which I did 'der him. He comes in that respect. All I will say is this—that I trust the
down here in March, 1854, full of wisdom, after the house will, both upon moral and prudential, as well as
eco-
fact. But he forgets what was the state of opinion in nomical considerations, adhere to the very utmost of its
March and April,lBs3. Sir, I was curious toknow what was powers, and in the most rigid form, to this valuable prin-
the state of public opinion at that time ; what was its action ciple of raising the supplies within the year. And I think
upon the funds ; what were the general sentiments among I may venture to promise, ou the part of the Government
those interested in money matters ; and those who will and of myself, that, so log as there is upon the part of
take the trouble to refer to that period will find that all the house a disposition tondo justice to the country in this
who censured me on that occasion, censured me because I respect, we at least shall be ready to fulfil our part.
had secured too little for the public. (Cheers.) I referred Colonel SI3THORP said the right hon. gentleman had
to that opinion expressed by the right hon. gentleman • alluded to the moral and prudential considerations which
and he says, what a wretched thing is the arguntentunt ad acMated himself and the Government. Their intentions
hominent. But, sir, I did not use it as an argumentunt ad were to be economical. Now, having an experience of
hominem. I used it, because at that time, in his objec- 26 years in that house, hes had learned this—never to rely
tions, the right hon. gentleman represented public opinion, on the statements and pfbrnises of Chancellors of the and because because he knows that public opinion has varied, chequer. (A laugh.) He had no opinion of them at all.
therefore the right hon. gentleman has also altered his They were all full of duplicity. (Laughter.) He would
tone. But the right hon. gentleman did then make ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, if he should
that objection. We did not hear a word then about the like the Emperor of Russia to have a good licking—
prospects of a bad harvest, or of the state of the funds, but (laughter)
—he would remit the additional income tax
the right hon. gentleman went into a long and imposing which he now propose.] to impose ?
detail of the state of the public debt. Be showed how one The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
Minister after another had reduced, Rome one million, he was afraid he could not promise not to call for the ad-
some one million and a half; and what do you mean, he ditional income tax, even if there was no declaration of
said by your paltry reduction, which even et the outside war, becituse this modicum of taxation would in fact be
cannot amount to more than half a million a year. It will necessary to defray the expenses of the present expedition
not do that he should say, what any of us may say, that to the East.
we have learned something from the experience of the The amendment was then vvithdrawn ;tad original re-
past. Oh, no, he says, all the facts where then in ex solutions were agreed to, and a bill founde upon them
ence. But he entirely forgets to allude to the fact— was ordered to be introduced.
though I reminded him of it the other night—that both The house then adjourned at five minutes past two.
he and his learned brother in finance beside him united in
warning and censuring me, not because I proposed a re-
duction, but because that reduction was so insignificant.
Sir, I must now refer in a few words to the question of
the balances of the Exchequer; and in doing so I must
refer to the speech of the hon. member for Peterborough.
Far be it from me to complain of the speech of the hon.
gentleman. I regret that in subsequent allusions to the
speech of the hon. gentleman he was described by several
members as the Bank director ; not because I do not think
that he is a most useful and worthy Bank director, but lest
the impression may be produced out of doors that he spoke
in his official character of Bank director. But, sir, I think
the house will see, from the speech of the hon. gentleman
that the relations between the Bank of England and the
ffnanoial department of this country, though of an intimate
are still of a most independent character ; and I fear,
moreover, the impression may be produced that the rela-
tions existing between him and me are not eminently
favourable to the fortunate conducting of our financial
affairs. (Hear.) Sir, I find no fault with the speech of
the hon. gentleman, but I think it may be inferred from
what he said that I had recently been to the Bank more or
less as a suppliant, asking for loans at less than their mar-
ket value, and putting upon the Bank a pressure, on the
assumption that it was bound to have regard to the inte-
' rests of the Exchequer, apart from its own interests as a
standing corporation. Sir, I disclaim any such intention
or act ; and, moreover, I think I may say, though I was not
present at the meeting of the Bank proprietors held a few
da, s ago, but I have been informed that a question was then
put to the Governor of the Bank by one os the proprietors,
who wished to know whether a proposition had been made
which was favourable to the interests of Government, but
at variance with the interests of the Bank, and the Gover-
nor, as I am informed, replied distinctly that he had re-
ceived no such proposition. Sir, it is perfectly clear that
the Government have no right to demand a pecuniary ad-
vantage of a tingle farthing in their transactions with the
Bank. It is the business of the Bank to charge the Go-
vernment—and it would be perfectly compatible with the
most friendly relations between them to do so—the fair
value for any accommodation which they may afford. Sir,
the honourable gentleman also dwelt upon the history of
the deficiency bills in a manner which I think may cause
serious public misapprehension. What is the state of the
case ? Is it a question of principle or of degree ? Is it the
opinion of this house that deficiency bills are an illegiti-
mate means of supplying the public exigencies? If they
think so, let those who think so repeal the act of Parlia-
ment by which the power is committed to the Chancellor
of the Exchequer to negotiate the issue of deficiency bills.
I contend for directly the contrary. The act was passed.
forty years ago, and they have been in use over since.
The hon. gentleman quoted the state of th 3 balances dur-
ing the last six years; and it is true that they have been
less used during that time than during the thirty-seven
years before. And why ? Because, for the last six
years, the excess was the other way. The deficiency in
the revenue was so great in 1841, the deficiency bills had
attained such a height in combination with a deficient re-
venue, that they exercised a pernicious influence upon pub-
lic credit. Is that a reason why we should not reserve a
reasonable and a moderate amount of deficiency bills ?
What is the opposite doctrine ? It is that the finance
minister ought to have a constant accumulation of money
in the Bank throughout the quarter, beginning by low
balances of half a million or a million, anti running up at
the end to nine or ten millions. Ido not believe that is a
very good course to be taken, either for the trade of the
country, for the Bank, or for the Government. You wait,
then, to hear what is the opposite doctrine upon this sub-
ject. My doctrine is, as I have said, that a moderate and
reasonable use of deficiency bills is not only compatible
with the welfare of the country, and consistent with the
maintenance of public credit, but that it is the most con-
venient for all parties. (Hear.) The hon, member for
Peterborough accedes to that doctrine; but then he says
that the present amount of deficiency b is an excessive
amount.
Mr. HANKEY—I did not say excessive.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I do not
mean to quote the exact expression used by the laOa. - -
ber, but rather the effect of what he said ; mem
und, as I under-
-
stood his meaning, it was that the Government had issued
more deficiency bills than they ought. Illy 97131 taw of

RAIL WA Y SHA.RE MARKETS.

LIVERPOOL, MARCH 21.
STOCK EXCHANGE.—The share market has been dull and
depressed again to-day, but closed rather better than at the
lowest point. Caledonian, 26/ ; Baste= Counties, 12;
East Lancashire, 15 ; Lancashire and Yorkshire, 61i ;
Liverpool, Crosby, and Saithport 14; London and
North-Western, 87:5; Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincoln,
20j1; Midland, 57h ; Birmingham and Derby, 33 ; North
British, 71-1-; South-Lastern and Dover, 14 ; York and
North Midland 22j.

MANCHESTER MARCH 21.
STOCK ExcHANGE.—There was some fluctuation, but
with the exception of Loudon and North-Western, which
sold at i/. lower, most of the princil stocks were rather
firmer at the close than the
opening,pa with a considerable
business. Manchester and Birmingham, C Quarters, 1-16 put, ; Bhefflelds, 204; Ditto New Pref., 1-16 pm.; dMid-
East, 57:t ; D
Lancashire, over s, 1 ; Leede, 6.111 ; London Stock, 984 ;
15 ; Ditto
Counties, 124 ; Caledonians, Pref. Quarters, 84 ; Eastern
26/.

• LEEDS, MARCH 21.
STOCK EXCEIANGE.—The share market is dull to-day,
and prices are lower, the heavy stocks having declined
since morning. The transactions to-day are :—Midiauds,
and and Yorkshire's, 61g. 57$ : • Caledonians, 26. f ; North-Western (Skipton line),;

IPPING INTELLIGENCE. I s

VESSELS SPOKEN WITH.
The Bosphorus, from London, Feb. 23.
The Usk (brig), bound south, Feb. 26.
The Express, Liverpool to Melbourne, Jan. 22, lat. 19
S., long.oemst 'L 30 W. 61 days
and f out, with loss of foretopgallant
same day. Tads. he Great Britain steering south,
S. Ton Alceste, Liverpool to Port Adelaide, Jan 26, Ist 1
g. 21 W.
The Praux, Canton to London, Feb. 26, lat. 38 N.,
long. 19 VT,
The New Orleans, Nov. 24 , . 89 W.
The Bucephalus, standing to the south,long Jan. 2, lat, 28
S., long. 22 W.
The barque No. 2853, Dec. 17, lat. 25 S., long. 65 E.
of St. Helena.
The ship No. 9,638, from Canton, 80 days out, in sight
7,926, Bombay to
A ship, No.
Liverpool,
14, long. 9 W.
Jan. 31, lat.
The Eleutheria, Clyde to Melbourne, Oct. 12.
The Eclair, Bordeaux to Sydney, Oct. 27, lat 38 S.,
long. 23 W.
The Hampden, Bombay to Melbourne, Nov. 25, lat. 34
S., long. 129 E.
135 E.
The
Adelia, from Liverpool, Dec. 4, lat. 40 S., long.
The Benares London to Melbourne, off Cape Otway.
The Herefordshire, London to Melbourne, Sept. 13
The Carnatic, for New Zealand, lat. 44 S., long. 63 E.
The America, Amsterdam to Melbourne, lat. 4 N., long.
22 W.
The Dominion, for Sydney, lat. 4 N., long. 14 W.
.1.—.........__

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THE SUN, LONDON, W'EDNESDAY EVENING, MARCH 22, 1854.