The Sun.
London, England, 1854-07-25 00:00:00

~•~''

being in foil retreat, the siege had never been so vigor-
..o as;iy esrried or,, or, as they believed, with such great 'ropes
sueeess:; and it was not until the 23d June that, owing
to the valour of the Turks, to whom my noble friend has
• paid nothing more than ajust tribute, the siege was raised
and the Russians were in full retreat. (Hear, hear.)
Now at that time the treaty had not been ratified, and
lam not exactly aware of the day on which it was rati-
fied. It was in consequence alone, however, of our not
having received that ratified treaty that it has not been
laid upon the table of the house, because I am perfectly
ready to admit that it is a treaty of the greatest import.
ance and interest to this country, and one which your
lordships and the public have a right to possess as early
.as practicable. (Hear.) But your lordships must be
aware that until we receive from the Governments be-
tween whom the treaty has been made the ratification of
that treaty, it would be a most unnatural course to lay
it before Parliament. I repeat what my noble friend has
said ; I agree with him that Austria is an independent
power, and mistress to pursue her own policy in the
manner that she may think best. But Austria is under
solemn engagements to other countries • she has impor-
tant interests of her own to protect ; and unless we can
suppose that she would bring disgrace upon herself by
• not fulfilling her engagements, or be blind to her lost
urgent, and I may say vital, interests, I think we may
believe that Austria will act as we have every desire that
she should act, and as we have every right to expect that
she should act ; because Austria has already declared
that the course which France and England have pursued
in summoning Russia to evacuate the principalities, and
in carrying out the refusal of Russia to its legitimate
consequences, is a just and reasonable course. She has
declared that the evacuation of the principalities, and the
• free navigation of the Danube, affect not only her own
interests, but the interests of the whole of GermanlT-
, She has declared with England and France that it is ne-
cessary to devise means of connecting Turkey with the
general system and equilibrium of Europe ; which means
that Turkey is to be released, not only from her oner-
ous engagements with Russia, but from all wrongful in-
terpretations of those engagements. She has herself
summoned Russia to evacuate the principalities.
And last, though not least, at great expense, an ex-
pense which she could ill afford, Austria has orga-
nised and equipped one of the largest and finest armies
that have ever been seen in modern times in Europe.
Now, as it is impossible to suppose that Russia will
voluntarily submit to the demands of England and
France, and to the summons which Austria has ad-
dressed to her—and as I think it is equally impossible
to suppose that Austria, having made just and reason-
able demands, will ignominiously withdraw from them,
or sink in the scale of nations by acknowledging the
superiority of Russia, and submitting to her dictation--I
think, my lords, that the time cannot be far distant when
we shall have Austria co-operating with us ; and I be-
lieve that that co-operation would have taken place long
before this, if it had not been for the difficulties which
beset Austria, and which difficulties are, perhaps, net
understood or appreciated in this country. Your lord-
ships may remember that in the course of last autumn
the Austrian army was reduced by 100,000 men, and
any person conversant with that subject must know,
that again to raise the army to 300;000 men • is neces-
sarily a work of time. (Hear, hear.) Your lordships
must be aware also that in the month of March last,
Austria was ready to conclude a quadruple treaty with
the other three powers, and that the protocol of the 9th
of April was the compromise to which she was com-
pelled to submit. You have recently had information
brought before you, by my noble and learned friend on
the cross benches, with respect to a combination against
Austria in the interests of Russia, which has been called
the Bamberg Conference, and which up to this day has
prevented the Austrian and Prussian treaty being sub-
mitted to the Diet. These difficulties, and others to
which I do not think it right to allude under present
circumstances, we should take into account, if we really
would understand what has been, and what should be,
the policy of Austria. I answer for none. lam inerely
stating exactly what has passed, and the grounds upon
which I think we may count on this co-operation. And
now, my lords let me say further, that my noble friend is
mistaken in thinking that °tithe 3d of July there had been
any fresh negotiations entered into by this country with
Austria or with Russia. Your lordships are aware
that Austria did address to Russia a summons for the
evacuation in a short time of the principalities, and it
was the answer of Russia to that summons which came
to Vienna early in the present month. But we were no
parties to the communication made by Austria to Rus-
sia, and no parties to the answer received by Austria
from Russia. Her Majesty's Government will at all
times be ready to enter into negotiations for the ob-
ject of the war, which is a just and an honourable peace ;
but until any such terms are set before us, and until we
have any reason to beiieve that they are of a bona fide
character, no negotiation will be entered into by this
country. (Cheers.) I have upon former occasions ad-
verted to the almost utter impossibility, at the commence-
ment of a war, of stating what would be the terms of
peace. I have no wish to detain your lordships by going
over the same ground again ; but I do hope that during
the time it has been my duty to administer the
affairs of the Foreign-office, I have not given your
lordships any reason to doubt that I am insensible to
the honour and the dignity of this country. I ask your
lordships to believe me when I say, not only in my own
name, but in the name of all my colleagues, that there
is no intention of returning to the status quo—(loud and
general cheering)—that there is no intention of listening
to a patched-up peace, which would only be a hollow
truce, and render a return to war inevitable under these
circumstances. (Hear.) But if we continue to enjoy
the support of Parliament and the people of England,
• I can assure your lordships that we will enter into no
engagement that shall not lead to a just and an honour-
able peace, worthy of the just and righteous cause in
which we are engaged, worthy the allies with whom we
have undertaken this cause, and, I hope, not unworthy,
of the great and disinterested sacrifices which this coun-
try has so generously made. (The noble earl resumed
his seat amid loud cheering.)
The address was then agreed to.
NATIONAL EDUCATION.
Lord BROUGHAM rose to make a motion on the
subject of national education. The noble and learned
lord, who was at first indistinctly heard, began by calling
attention to the efforts which had been already made by
the State and by private bodies to promote the educa-
tion of the people. He regarded the existing machinery
as inadequate for the proper accomplishment of that
great object ; but whilst he wished the State to extend
and increase its exertions in the good work, he did not
desire that it should discourage or displace the efforts of
individuals, but to stimulate and to supplement them.
The progress that had been made in popular education,
though gratifying as far as it went, was not so rapid as
it should be. Having adduced statistics of the number
of scholars attending public schools, private schools, in-
fant schools, and schools for all classes, the noble and
learned lord contended that there was a serious deficiency
in the means of instruction. It was only by means of
public and national schools, provided by the State, that
education could reach the common people, the working
classes, and the poor, on whose moral, religious, and in-
tellectual training the well-being of society at large, and
the diminution o pauperism and crime, so intimately
depended. The number of children for whom, after
• making deductions for those who could not be at school
in consequence of their parents putting them to various
occupations, it was absolutely essential that instruction
should be provided, was 1,800,000. We had now school-
ing for only 1,500,000, showing a deficiency of the means
of instruction for 300,000 children. Nor were the ex-
isting means of instruction equally diffused over the
country. In 44 towns, including all the great and a
considerable number of the lesser towns, there was a
deficit, as compared with the country districts, of the
means of instruction for 43,000 children. In towns con-
taining more than 50,000 inhabitants there was a working
class population of 3,900,000. In the public day
schools there were 321,000 children, to which num-
ber he added one-sixth as representing the number of
children who, though at private schools, belonged to the
working classes, making a total of 352,0003 being a little
less' than one-eleventh of the population. In the
remainder of the country there was a working population
of 10,437,000, and the number of scholars amounting to
1,134,000. The deficit in these great towns, as com-
pared with the rest of the country, was therefore 72,000.
From the facts which he had stated to their lordships,
he thought that it was quite clear that some steps ought
to be taken to remedy the existing state of things. He
would not trouble their lordships further, but would lay
his resolutions on the table, and present the bill which
he had prepared on the subject. (Hear.)
Earl GRANVILLE said that almost the first act
which lie performed on becoming a member of the Coun-
cil on Education was to refer to the speeches of his noble
and. learned friend on this important subject ; and lie
was sure no one could have read those speeches without
acknowledging not only the spirit, and eloquence, and
ability, with which his noble and learned friend had ad-
vocated a cause which at that time was not so popular
as it was at present, but the singular sagacity with which
he had suggested many of the means which had since
been adopted for the improvement of the system of edu-
cation. With regard to the bill introduced by his noble
and learned friend some time since, he was afraid that
some further measures were required with regard to the
abuses arising from the mismanagement of educational
charities.
Lord BROUGHAM—More stringent powers and a
better staff.
Earl GRANVILLE thought the board had worked as
bard as possible.
•It had obtained most useful information,
and numerous applications had been made by trustees of
schools to be placed in a better position. In almost every
instance the commissioners had been obliged to say,
" We think your case a good one—we wish your de-
• . sires to be complied with ; but we have not the power
to help you--you must go to the Court of Chancery.,
These parties, however, had no pleasure in going to the
Court of Chancery, arid the schools remained without
improvement. He trusted, however, that if a measure
on this subject should be introduced next year, it would
receive the favourable consideration of their lordships.
The bill was read a first time.
The Public Libraries Bill, the Parochial School-
masters (Scotland) Bill, the Registration of Births, &c.
(Scotland) Bill, the Youthful Offenders Bill, the Usury
131,
Laws
1 and
a number of other bills, were severally
read the second time.
Other bills were advanced a stage, after which their
lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(CESTERDAY.)
SUPPLY.—THE VOTE OF CitEDIT.
The house then resolved itself into a committee of sup-
ply. Mr. BOUVERIE in the chair.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved that her Majesty's message
be read.
Mr. BOUVERIE reedit, as follows :
" Victoria Regina.—Her Majesty, deeming it expedient
to provide for any additional expense which may arise in
consequence of the war in which her Majesty is now en-
gaged against the Emperor of Russia, anti relying on the

zeal end affection of her faithful ~......---.........-----
lingl
they will make provision accorc y. 1
I,so
.co,
the
pr.
Commons,
Lord J. RUSSELL—Mr. Bouverse, trusts that
e to a vote of
to
' 3,000,00002. in supply, usually deii
pose of asking the committee
°thmink it quite unneces-
dit. In performing this task I shall agree
a vote of cre-
pt' the war in which
ing out of hostilities, or to the causes
wledge at all
e.cknci
sary to refer to the siegotiationS which preceded the break-
we are now engaged. IT am ready to
.ui'ecl with
whicho
f unthdiesrthaokuisnegeonc
that ;rar,
a.,
by the Ministers of the
Crown. Likewise,
illnintghteiensseoweisstil:47
" hertini m
thee;l at
eo acknowledge that, having at
I have t
sjhueepstpwyliies which were asked for
the commencement of these hostilities stated to the house
, that it would tend greatly to impede the public service if
questions were asked from time to time with respect to the
1 mode of carrying on hostilities, the members of this house
e
have been remarkably forbearing in reference to the ask-
ing of questions which might embarrass the Government in
regard to the conduct of naval I and military operations. I
have, therefore, in the first place, to return the thanks of the
I Government to this house for the support they have re-
I calved in the arduous task which they had to unclertakp ;
and, in the next place, I have to state that which indeed is
well known to the house, that large expeditions have been
fitted out; that, with regard to the navy, the ships of her
Majesty occupying the Baltic and the Black Sea, are in-
i disputably the masters of those seas, and that the enemy
has not ventured to come out of port to encounter her Ma-
jesty's arms in either of those seas, which have been
, hitherto considered as the peculiar domain of the Russian
empire. While this circumstance is gratifying, it, no
doubt, would have been more gratifying to our gallant sea-
' men if they had been able, in fair battle, to measure their
prowess against that of the enemy, and to reap some of
hose laurels which have been so amply the share of their
pry; eenitors and of our forefathers. But, sir, I may per-
haps ~.e, allowed to state s,
emewhat more in detail the in-
crease ss:hich has been made ("9 our naval force in conse-
quence of i2le votes of this house siinee the beginning of the
year 1853. -`with regard to the firs, second, and third-
rates, there was, On the Ist of January, 1853, only one ;
on the Ist of July, 1854, there were sever fin' I„;aul
speaking now of steam-vessels. With respect ~.° salLajg
line-of-battle ships, there were in January, 1853, eil.wen ; y-
there are now eighteen. Therefore, while the stoma
vessels have increased from one to seventeen, the sailing-
vessels have increased from eleven to eighteen. The whole
number of steam-vessels, which were then 100, are now
139, and the sailing-vessels, which were 109, are now
120 ; and the total number has been increased from
209 to 259. The seamen afloat have increased from 28,000
to 47,000, and the marines from 5,000 to 9,000 ; so that
the whole number, being in January, 1853, 33,910, is now
57,200. With regard to our army likewise, we have been
enabled, by the great exertions which were made, to place
on the Turkish shores an army exceeding 30,000, a great
part of which was lately at Varna or its neighbour-
hood. I shall of course not notice in this house the
various criticisms that have been made with respect to the
operations of our fleet aid army. As I have said, great
forbearance has been displayed on this subject. The opera-
tions of the war are, on our parts, just commenced, and no
person who is acquainted with naval and military opera-
tions would agree with those remarks that have been made,
depreciating either the conduct of any of our admirals or
that of any of our generals. But it is impossible not to
notice iu this place, that while our exertions have been
directed to making preparations to aid that ally whom we
went to succour, the Turkish army have displayed acts of
valour and of prowess which aro deserving of the highest
admiration. (Loud cheers.) In the course of last year,
when negotiations were in suspense, it was frequently
represented that if we went to the assistance of Turkey we
went to the assistance of a decaying State—that we went
to raise an empire already fallen ; and, to refer to the
language of the Foreign Minister of the Emperor of Russia,
it was said, and said by him no later than at Olmutz, that
it required but a filip to overthrow the whole Turkish em-
pire. •(A contemptuous laugh.) So far is it from this
being the case, that the Emperor of Russia, having occu-
pied the Principalities at first with only a small force, and
having devoted a whole year to preparations with the
avowed purpose that in the month of May in the present
year the operations of the carngaign would begin with the
siege and capture of Silistria, the Russian army which
crossed the Danube for that purpose, with a force of which
the numliers have certainly not been reported with specific
accuracy7but which are stated to have amounted to 80,000
men, have been driven back and repulsed from the pre-
cincts of that fortress ; and after a siege iu which feats of
valour were performed worthy of the greatest examples of
siege operations either in ancient or modern times—
worthy of Saguntumor of Saragossa—the Russian army has
been compelled ignominiously to abandon that citadel.
That being now the position of affairs, the last incident
which has taken pia,e is one of too much importance to be
passed over even in a cursory statement. It was thought by
many persons that, however motives of policy might induce
the Governments of England and France to combine in an
alliance against the aggression of Russia, yet that the wars in
which the two nations had been engaged had left such feel-
ings of national animosity that the two countries could not
easily be induced to co-operate in the field and upon sea.
We have seen, however, not only the armies of the two
nations combined in the neighbourhood of Constantinople
with the most friendly feelings, but we have also seen within
the la.stfew days aconsiderabe French military force embark
on board English line-of-battle ships— (cheers)—and from
all the testimony which we have received, nothing could be
more cordial and friendly than the feeling displayed by the
armed troops and seamen of the two nations. (Cheers.) While
it is impossible not deeply to regret that peace should be
broken, still I must say that the establishment of such
cordial feelings between two nations which have so often en-
countered each other in arms, and met on the embattled
field with hostile feelings—tho establishment of cordial
feelings with a nation so near and so powerful as France is
in itself a great security for the future maintenance of the
amicable relations between the two nations which we should
ever wish to see continued. (Hear, hear.) In referring
now to the present state of affairs, and the necessity which
exists for this vote, I shall decline altogether going into
any details as to the services for which this large sum may
be required. With the plan of operations undertaken in
Turkey, the commissariat expenses may amount to a very
considerable sum ; the ordnance expenses will also, no
doubt, be much greater than they have hitherto been.
There are likewise some expenses for the navy and for tran-
sports—especially for the later operations, which are not
included in any of the present votes of Parliament. But
it is quite impossible to frame anything like a clear esti-
mate of what those services may require, as they will
greatly depend upon the nature of the operations which
our admirals and our generals may think fit to undertake.
It would not, therefore, be consistent with our duty to go
into any particular estimates with respect to the applica-
tion of the sums for which I have now asked. I should
think, so far as we can at present foresee, that nearly two
millions will be taken up for the service to which I have
alluded. But we may have other calls upon the resources
of the nation, and more especially among other things a
question has been raised, or rather suggestions have been
made, with respect to a large body of Turkish troops
which might be joined with our army and receive pay
from the British Government. That is one way in which
it may be thought fit to apply part of tho resources which
I have named, but I avowedly ask for this vote with the
view that her Majesty's Government may apply the sum
they require from time to time for services rendered neces-
sary by the prosecution of the war. I ask the vote con-
fessedly without an estimate, on the ground that as the
usual time of the prorogation of Parliament has nearly ar-
rived, we may be enabled, Parliament not sitting, to direct
these resources in a manner to obtain such success as may
lead to an honourable peace. I shallstouch upon two other
points, and shall do so in the view I have taken of our being
near the time of the prorogation of Parliament. I think it
is fitting to give to this house as much information as con
sistently with the public duty of the. Government I may be
able to afford. In stating last year nearly at a similar
period to the present that negotiations were then pro-
ceeding, I was above all careful not to say anything
which would tend to disturb the train of negotiation, or to
diminish in the least degree the chance of success. We
are now more certainly at liberty in that respect, and our
exertions must now be undisguisedly directed in a different
manner to the attaining by the force of our arms and the
strength of our alliances that just and honourable peace
both for Turkey and for ourselves, which wo were unable
to procure by our negotiations. (:sear.) In adverting to
the present state of Europe, every one is naturally anxious
to learn what part will be taken by Austria on this very
interesting and important question. (Hear.) I have always
maintained that whatever might be the interest of Eng-
land and France in defending and protecting Turkey, the
interests of Austria were much greater. (Hear.) It is im-
possible to conceive of the Emperor of Russia succeeding
in what must now be 'considered as hiseslesigns, namely,
the effective control, if not acknowledged dominion, over
the Principalities, and an increased and predominant influ-
ence in Turkey, without his having at the same time a com-
plete command over the Government of Austria. I cannot
tfwaa main-
inhi fairly
iceyhd
et i
she
eRe
no uno sswei ida erseemst hr weeicsit
ego.
ui ere xo .
utt ei 8
on
ondf,
ei herxttei
sn pd
noi
enwcg ee
isr
ts i. a in
yi
3t
uhttec,
conceive how the independence of Austria could be
iwaybne oarr d
iie
nnr
mind the difficulties with which Austria must have to deal,
now that upon more than one side of her empire the Rus-
sian armies can approach to no great distance from her ca-
pital, and that it would have been imprudent in her to
commit herself to arms against Russia unless she bad
been fully prepared. We must also remember that
with regard to two of the kingdoms submitting to her'
sway, those kingdoms have been in very recent years so
greatly disturbed as to make the peril of entering into
hostilities greater than it would have been had no such
state of things existed. It has therefore been the policy
of Austria, declaring that she concurred with us in our ob-
jects, to attempt as long as possible by negotiations to ob •
tain a settlement of the questions in dispute. Austria has
more than once declared that, although the principles
which her Majesty's Government has laid down, and the
objects which her Majesty had in view, inet with her full
approbation, she did not despair of Russia evacuating the
principalities and agreeing to terms of arrangement which
would secure the maintenance of the balance of power in
Europe. Very lately Austria has sent a message, which
has been published in the newspapers within the last few
days, asking Russia to evacuate the principalities—asking
her to fix a time for that evacuation at no remote period.
With this message Austria transmitted to St. Petersburg
the protocol of April, agreed to at Vienna between the
four powers, in which it is declared that the object of the
four powers was, that Turkey should be attached to the
system of Europe ; that the kingdom should form part of
the general balance of power in Europe ; and that arrange-
ments ought to be carried into effect by the general con-
sent and concurrence of the other powers of Europe in
order to obtain that settlement. An answer has been re-
ceived from the Government of Russia—an answer which,
for my own part, I should hardly call evasive—but which
pretended in some sort to be a compliance with the re-
quest of Austria. But in the first place Russia does not
profess herself ready to fix any time for the evacuation of
the principalities. She declares, in effect, that now war
having been declared, that now that the English and
French are engaged in hostilities against her, and are supe-
rior to her in the Black Sea and in the Baltic, where her
fleets do not leave their ports, that there remains only the
seat of war in the principalities and the neighbourhood of
the Danube where she can hope to restore the balance,
and by the success of her arms obtain a victory for herself.
She therefore declines evacuating the principalities. She
declares, to be sure, that she is ready to adopt the three
principles contained in the protocol of Vienna of the 9th of
April, those principles being plainly declared to be the eva-
cuation of the principalities, the granting of privileges and
rights to the Christian inhabitants of the Sultan in such a
manner as to ensure these rights ; and likewise that a
treaty in convention should be entered into between the
four Powers and Turkey assuring those rights. Now,
without criticising this reply, there is this objection to it,
which all those who have read the protocol will readiiy
admit to ba a fair one, and that is, there is a complete

orgission of that whish is iktessr4s.l-part and foundation
of t e protocol ataurkdy 4,341 in f fon%
I;art of thin gee
system of Europe. :that citrestiOn
the one which is at the bottom of the difference in hich
Russia and Turkey were engaged in the last war ; it is at
the foundation of the war in which we find ourselves at
present engaged. Ever since the victories of the Empress
Catharine, the Government of Russia has considered
that
Turkey could not form any alliance with other Powers ex-
cept with the general supervision of Russia, and that the
greater part of the subjects of Turkey being Christians
were to look to the Emperor of Russia asliteir protector
‘nd supporter, in spite and in contradiction, if need be, of
••• own Government. The object of the four Powers is,
—Crary, that the Sultan havingthe right, which he
confirming by solemn acts the privileges of
i-mtid be admitted to form part of our
--tatted to govern hid own
which belong

their
on the cot.

has exercised, os
his Christiansnbjects, sas
general system, and ehould be pa.
people by the exercise of those Sovereign .-
to sovereignty itself, and forming past pf the general sys-
tem. of Europe, should not lock to protection 091ely to
Russia, but should look to the Powers of Europe, singly or
united, which would maintain him, as they maintain the
other States of Europe in their position. sttch, however,
being the answer which Russia has given, the ()vac:lament
of Austria, which has informed us of what they intended
to do in each of three eases—namely, of the reply being
affirmative, negative, or evasive—has considered this reply
as evasive, and has asked the Governments of England and
France to communicate to her what is their opinion of the
proposal which has thus been made. I should have said
that not only does the Emperor of Russia requite that
England and France should be parties to any arrangement
by which the Principalities should be evacuated, but that
an armistice should be concluded by which we should not
by our troops or our fleets ‘in the Black Sea attack his
troops and fleets while evacuating the Principalities. Our
answer is that we cannot admit that this answer of Russia
affords any grounds for peace—(eheers)—and that we must
continue to obtain by the force of those armies and fleets
which are already engaged in the war such conditions as
we may deem necessary for a just, an honourable, and a
safe peace. (Renewed cheering.) With respect to Austria
and the part she may take when she knows our answer,
all I can say is, that although she might be mistaken as to
her policy—although I think she has been mistaken in not
joining sooner and more frankly with the Western Powers
—I cannot believe she will forfeit the engagements into
which. she has entered. Austria has entered into engage
meats not only with the Western bowers, but with Tur-
key. She has declared to the Western Powers, that if ;he
Principalities are not evacuated by Russia, she will use for-
cible means in ardor to compel their evacuation. She has
'nulated, in a convention with the Sultan of Turkey, that
stir
"I endeavour to secure the evacuation of these prin-
she wi ._
cipalities
ready
yn
to thatf
furnish
a' negotiation; but if these negotiations should
e would by other means, and that she will
fail,be
i .
thenumberrom
these of f tcireoeolpdeclarations
tni
oe necessary sae; foral by
b-
that purpose. I conceive • - will be bound to take part
these engagements that Austria from the unjust ag-
in the attempt to drive back Russia - • ,s Austria ma
y
gression which she has attempted. Whetna.
act with that hesitation and delay which W o
rise been uater•
tunately already prolonged too long—(cheers)—Or ehuld
attempt to gain from St. Petersburg some better and
some more satisfactory assurances, I am unable to say.
We have of course no control over the councils of the Em-
peror of Austria. With respect to the policy of Austria I
have no doubt, neither have I any doubt that she will hon-
ourably fulfil her engagements, although with the difficult
circumstances which surround her, with but, a poor half-
and-half support of the kingdom of Prussia—(hear)—she
may think it necessary once more to obtain a favourable
answer to her representations at St. Petersburg. I have
stated this in order that the house may be in possession of
the actual facts of the case so far as I can afford the infor-
mation. I have stated some things which have not only
recently taken place, but have also stated the answer which
we propose to give to 4ustria. There
has been as yet no
formal communication from the court of Austria on the
subject of the answer of Russia. I am, therefore, only
speaking of what is contemplated and intended by the
Government when that answer shall have been received.
The house will remember that, on a former occasion,
I refused to bind the Government in any way with
respect to the conditions of peace to which her Ma-
jesty's Government would agree, because the conditions
of peace must always depend upon the state of the
belligerents at the time when negotiations are entered
into. I will, however, state what I think is the nature of
the conditions which I think would be absolutely necessary
to justify us in assenting to any treaty of peace with Rus-
sia. While the negotiations were going on last year, if the
Sultan's Ministers had thought proper to advise him to
agree to the Menschikoff note, or if at a later period they
had advised him to agree to the Vienna note without alte-
ration or subsequent explanation, I believe the people of
this country, seeing that the urkish Government was
satisfied to enter into these engagements, and to take the
assurances thus offered, would have been well pleased that
no war should have broken out, and that the continuance
of peace for a time at least should have been secured. But
the Turkish Government having failed to accept those
terms, and having declared that the proposed conditions
threatened the independence of Turkey—having refused at
all risks and at all hazards, while alliances were uncertain,
and her forces were considered by no means equal to those
of Russia, to yield to conditions which she thought igno-
minious, her position is now entirely changed. We are
engaged in a war—engaged in support of Turkey, with the
view of defending her from aggression, and it behoves us
to see in any treaty of peace which we may make, that we
do not leave Turkey in as bad a condition, or possibly even
in a worse condition, than when we promised her our suc-
cour and assistance. (Hear.) Let the house consider for
a moment what are the dangers to Turkey of a treaty of
peace similar to those previously in existence. That ques-
tion has been elucidated by the very clear and masterly
despatch of the noble lord now at the head of her Majesty's
Government, written soon after the treaty of Adrianople.
I intend to read but one passage from the despatch ; but
it is one, however, which will exhibit those dangers in the
strongest light. The despatch stated:—" The modes of do-
mination may be various, although all equally irrestible.
The independence of a state may be overthrown, and its
subjection effectually secured, without the presence of a
hostile force, or the permanent occupation of its soil.
Under the present treaty the territorial acquisitions of
Russia are small, it must be admitted, in extent, although
most important in their character. They are commanding
positions far more valuable than the possession of barren
provinces and depopulated towns, and better calculated to
rivet the fetters by which the Sultan is bound." The de-
spatch goes on to show in what manner this power is se-
cured to Russia. For five-and-twenty years Russia was
content without any increase of territory, and, without
bringing her augmented influence to the arbitrement of
war, to rest satisfied with the conditions of the treaty.
These conditions gave great power to Russia ; and now
that the position has been changed, it behoves us to con-
sider, not the securities into which he had entered under
the treaty of Adrianople, but the securities which may be
had from a power having the advantages of the treaty of
Adrianople, and having moreover the will and the dispo-
sition to push those advantages to the utmost, and to ex-
tend her influence over the subjugation of Turkey. Now,
I Bak we are justified in so considering the question, be-
cause, in the first place the occupation of the principalities
by Russia was effected under the most flimsy pretences.
(Hear, hear.) In the next place we know, from corre-
spondence which has been produced before the house, that
tho Emperor of Russia had fixed ideas in his mind that
the empire of Turkey was 'about to fall, and that her
neighbours were justified in securing a part of the
spoils to themselves. We know more particularly that
the possession of those provinces of Wallachia and
Moldavia by Russia, under the title of the pro-
tectorate with nominal chiefs, was a part of the
scheme which the Emperor of Russia had formed in his
own mind. We know, moreover, that after a long reign—
exhibiting, I must say, great forbearance in many in-
stances of temptation -forbearance in interfering with the
affairs of other nations in Europe—forbearance in not at-
tempting conquests—of the two parties in Russia known
by the names of the German party and the Muscovite
party, the latter has recently obtained the sway, and that
it is the fixed plan and purpose of that Muscovite party to
establish what is called southern Russia, and that the seat
F of that empire of southern Russia is to be Constantinople
—I sav, with the knowledge of such state of affairs, we
ought to endeavour to obtain valid securities against acts
which has so recently taken
that
of aggression similar to
place. I hold, therefore, that it is impossible that the
arrangements which were made
by the treaty of
be
Ad-
rianople with respect to the principalities shall agueies
which g the
renewed—(loud cheers.)—arrangements
Emperor of Russia a predominant voice in the political
he
affairs of Wallachia and Moldavia—which gave him the
power of controlling in cases where he thought his affairs
were not conducted to his satisfaction, and which, by the
destruction of all the Turkish fortresses, gave him facilities
at any moment for occupying with his army the two
provinces, containing four millions of inhabitants. I
say that the integrity of Turkey and the balance of power
in Europe could not be secured by returning to the
status quo ante bellum, which would confirm such arrange-
ments as regards Russia and Turkey. (Hear, hear.) But
there is another mode in which the position of Russia is
menacing to the independence and integrity of Turkey.
The establishment of a great fortress prepared with all the
combination of art and science, made as impregnable as it
is possible for art and science to make it, and containing
within its port every large fleet of line-of-battle ships, ready
at any moment to come down with a favourable wind to
the Bosphorus—that I consider is a position so menacing
to Turkey, that no treaty of peace could be considered safe
which left the Emperor of Russia in that same menacing
position with respect to Turkey. (Loud and prolonged cheers).
I have thought it right to state not particularly, but the
general view of the Government with respect to the secu-
rities which we ought to obtain. What these special se-
curities should be, in what manner they should be gained,
and how they should be affirmed, is not a subject upon
which I think I can go further than I have already done.
I believe we shall be ready—we have been ready to com-
municate with the Government of
France on this subject.
I have every reason to believe that the views of the Govern-
ment of the Emperor of
France coincide with our own upon
this subject. We shall be d rea y to communicate with the
Government of Austria when
it wishes to know our opinion
with respect to such a settlement as in our opinion would
be alone secure, honourable, and just. I must say that
ts ti
with regard to those sec
Emperor of Russia at es, I see no symptom of the
present being disposed, I will not
say to grant conditions such as I have
hinted at, or to give
securities such as I have said
—I cannot say that he is
disposed to depart in every res-
pect from those demands which, made by Prince Menschi-
koff were indignantly rejected
acquisitions which have beenmade
by Turkey. In the great
by Russia from the
time of the Empress Catharinet
formly been pursued.
It was Catharine,
adoptioneamo course has mai-
d policy which at every treaty of e of this course
increased territory. The treaty pfaa secured to Russia
I will not say "secured," but stipulated9Kainardji
independ-
encesecured—
of the Crimea. The following the treaty and the follow-
ing war made the Crimea a Russian
province. Bessa-
ruble, added lately, combined with the command
Danube in such a manner that Russia has been aobflotheo
impede and obstruct tho navigation of that great and t
im-
portant river, followed the treaty of Ad • mop e. At each
step she has weakened Turkey ; she has kept Turkey in
that situation iu which, without giving immediate alarm
to Europe, she could dictate to Constantinople. Late years
have changed considerably the government of Turkey. I
will not say that change has extended to all the interior, or
to all the pachas and governors, but the Government of
Turkey has seen that there are new and improved modes of
government, consisting in dispensieg equal justice to all her
subjects whatever might be their religion, which might
make Turkey stronger as a power than she had ever been
while her power rested upon the ascendancy of the Maho-
medan race, and the subjection and degradation of every
other race. (Hear.) These great improvements in Turkey
have excited the jealousy and apprehension of Russia, and
you will see that in no case hasthe Government of Russia,
which has always pretended to be anxious for the exten-
sion of the privileges and the promotion of the good of the
Christian subjects of Turkey, been favourable to those
amendments and enlightened reforms which the Govern-
ment of Turkey has carried out. On the contrary, the

ill aLnugskneaygemotifst P,f4:iitissuianieb:sshaZnyesienb97
,Ar
'unseal. her aneirit Mahbmeilart- iiiavfni4-4etl&pt in l'orec—,
rtkhae tePi otl
language
uar n
betweenil lo:Rt vigour—Turkey
thet
hreomrtied
popula-
tions is duly preserved and strengthened." Such being
who can doubt what is the ultimate
tat hhn
thead
subjugationrnwhichChristianiacl6 morigphs
perhaps
bhfnjatoeric
st s
before o f
object of that power ? Going from step to step, aug-
usraaTiiTemurekdeayrt musta
nd t :a-fel la' 'IIITDIIu
Christianenriltdl aeesnrs stYh:eltsetsmepai fall
8-menting territories, increasing her influence, alienating
ee ilra
st allegiance,
century,
her final and ultimate object—which was commenced about
ebeotctarretniaend oetnutpfiofdrrorelesoamonmfdttehhtthi me ea—bsemrupsttiebne
of a great Hart el it in her ovrn dominions, while other por-
tions, whieh would remain nominally independent, would
in effect depend upon her influence and hbr authority.
Such a state of things would be so dangerous to Europe
that we on our side should not stop till we obtained some
security against such heronsummation being reached.
r Hear. hear.) She, on aid Tl.
- ^,
A. cave no doubt, will not
stop till she is assured by the events and by the calami-
tips of war, by such repulses as she lately iiia With 4
Silistiia, aiid kiy other adel more forMidable obstacles, tnat
_
the great project of her ambition cannot be executed with
the consent of Europe. It is in this great contest that
Europe is engaged; and I think I 84414 b 0 4POW4iii
this house if £ were to tell them that,' engaged-with svici
an enemy, with a Sovereign of immense power, of mat in,
flnence, and of great talents, we might hope for 4 speedy
termination to such a contest. Of this lam sure, that if
we were to shrink such
that'Contest—:if we were to patch_
up a peace, which would be hollow and insecure—par,
hear)—we shoUld lose our allies, we should 100 the confi-
dence and respect of i.ircipe--.(hes,r, hear) —and Russia
would be placed, not is the position which she held Fn.
vions to the breaking out;of hostilities, not in the positical
which she held from 182 P to 1.83, but in such a Positiwa
that the Emperor of linssta would then justly be called.
that which by some of his courtiers and ilattererfi he has
been already cannel.—the arbiter of_the destiaiesof Europe.
(Hear, hear.) It is our business to prevent thatoonanrn-
nr.tion. (Hear, hear.) To prevent that consummatica
this hou4o h,S willingly and almost unanimously not only
voted immense supplies, but hai consented tc, forego those
blessings of peace which were w.yar, more rightly called
blessings titan. 44ring the laSt few (Hear, hear.)
09,11. • •
We are willing to forego --,Y
many advantages to our com-
merce, and many political and social improvements which
may be delayed'; but at all events let us secure this ob-
ject, and leans see that, While we can trust with implicit
confidence kr the gallantry qf a,ose men who are plat* at
the head of our fleets andarmies, no weakness in the coun-
cils of this kingdom shall prove that these councils are
unworthy of the soldiers and
soliitirs whom we have sent to
fight the battles of their oonntry on remote fields and on
(iistant seas. (Cheers.) Sir, I have one word more to say
. with regard to the vote which I shall put into your hands.
I have been informed since I came into the house that it is
the intention of au Lou. member to propose in some form
or other—,for I care not what form—some restriction upon
the authority of the Crown with regard to the prorogation
and the naeetingofrarlia,ment. Sir, it is better to say at once
that while the right hon. gentleman opposite, the member
for Buckinghamshire, might be entitled to say that lie ex-
pected an autumn session, and while it might be the advice
which should he given by the Ministers of the Crown that
Parliament ehmil4 naiiinieet in the course of the autumn,
still the advisers of the Crown cannot accept any restric-
tion to their freedfin4 In giving such advice as they may
think proper upon-that subject. (Hear, hear.) Circum-
stances may make it very advisable to meet Parliament
again seen, looking to the state of Europe or to new al-
liances that we may form ; hut, on the other hand, there
may be circumstancet iu public affairs which would induce
the Cabinet to think such a meeting inexpedient. We
must be at full liberty to give such advice as the circum-
stances of the times, at the time, may seem from us to de-
mand. At the commencement of the century the Coalition
Ministry of Lord Granville and Lord Grey were asked by
the Sovereign to bind themselves as to the advice which
they might give him with regard to a particular measure to
which Its felt the strongest repugnance. Lords Granville and.
Grey said that it would he unbecoming in thorn, as the ad-
visers of the Crown, to bind and fetter themselves by any
such engagement. (Hear.) The engagement which that
Ministry
to enterrefusedtry into v
to enter
theteirinto Housewitht of Commons.heerown,we
We
must
refuse
confidence of this house—if we are to be
merit at all the
tmeust ,
the acs I
re
whnavaes said,
we
eia
maybe af t
ht
ihnkll
proper liberty tato give
thet u i
9as
ec.h advice
v iwe
c e
a negotiate
with l'
war
resources of
tthties
with the powers of Europe, we must be unfetteredttt
take
the
the time at which we may advise her alajes y o a
entrusted with
country—if
are the
advice of Parliament. There can be no unwillingness on
todidVescalt tolifis tghreeavtaswt
our part to call for that advice, because we have expe-
rienced the support and the strength which during this
session we have derived in the face of Europe from the
unanimous—the nearly unanimous—opinion of the repre-
sentatives of the people. (Hear, hear.) Anything
that happened •or was said before the meeting of
Parliament might have been represented, and not unnatu-
rally represented, as the impulse of a single meeting, or
the opinion of a single individual; but the voice of Par-
liament could not be mistaken. That voice has pronounced
that we are engaged in a just and necessary war, and
I am sure it will equally declare that that war is not to be
concluded but by a just and honourable peace. (Cheers.)
Mr. ALCOCK said that, though the votes for the war
had been granted, the majority of the country considered
that the war had not been efficiently carried on, and ha
advocated most vigorous measures in the Crimea, and aid
to the Circassians.

Mr. G. BANKES had heard with surprise that a sub-
sidy to our Turkish allies was meditated, and, while con-
sidering that such a course ought not to be adopted with-
out the immediate sanction of Parliament, he suggested
that the vacillating conduct of Austria might mean that
she was also waiting for a subsidy. He should be very
much disposed to accede to a proposition for an autumnal
sitting, provided such proposal were fittingly made, as
discontent might arise among the people, now so heavily
taxed, unless their representatives were assembled to.. an-
swer for their conduct. The people, he added, were much
dissatisfied with the new arrangement as to the War
Minister. He admitted that the sentiments of LOI d John
Russell as to the peace were those of the country, but he
dwelt upon the discordance between Lord John's views
and those of Lord Aberdeen, and urged that as this differ-
ence 'left the country no guarantee for an honourable peace,
here was another reason for an autumnal session.
Mr. HUM E understood the noble lord (Lord J. Russell)
to speak in the nano of hie colleagues, and not to give his
. "dual opinion. (Hear, hear, from Lord J. Russell)
It would, therefore, be a pity that on so important an occa-
sionown in(l
it should go to the public that a difference existed in
the Cabinet, and that the leader of the House of Commons
said the opposite of what was said by the leader of the
House of Lords. (Hear, hear.) As to the cry about the
Coalition Government, he (Mr. Hume) wished to know how
a Government could be formed Os carried on without a co-
alition? (Hear, hear.) He was surry to hear the slow
progress of the war criticised as it had been by his hon.
friend (Mr. Alcock); but if they turned to the page of his-
tory they would find much more was done at present in
the way of forwarding troops and armaments than had
ever been acsomplished on any previous occasion. (Hear,
hear.) He should acknowledge that when Sir C. Napier
was appointed to command he was rather afraid the ope-
rations of the gallant admiral would be too rapid; but it
now appeared that he could wait and consider until the
time came to act with effect. (Hear, hear.) One word as
to the subsidy. During the revolutionary war we had ad-
vanced 66,000,000/. in subsides, every pound of which was
misapplied. They did, not assist or facilitate the purposes
for which they were intended, but, on the contrary, re-
tarded and paralysed them. The Turks had so far acted
without our assistance—(hear, hear)—they had done so
with honour and without money, and there was less ne-
cessity for money now than heretofore. (Hear, hear.)
Therefore, he should be sorry to see a subsidy agreed to
unless sanctioned by that house. (Hear, hear.) In his
opinion the hope of a subsidy should not even be held
out to them. (Hear, hear.) He hoped there would be no
difference of opinion, but that the vote would be cordi-
ally agreed to.
Mr. KNIGHT suggested that the Circassians, who were
born with a hatred to Russia, should be drilled under
Turkish officers, and placed under the rule of a Turkish
pacha, in which case they
sistance.
Mr. BLACKETT complained of the ignorance in which
the country was kept in regard to the diplomatic action
which guided the war. He urged that a most mischievous
would afford most valuable as-
delay had occurred in the fulfilment of the engagements
strtia,owohhaoisoesobojfe
jacterwoaws,obymeisvgeoryvemrneeadnsprinovhieuroopso.
M power,.
otof
Au
rivetr. h
COBDEN said that the speech of the noble lord
(Russell) had in some degree converted the discussion into
a council of war; for he had done what was generally con-
sidered to be very bad strategy on the part of a general—
he had disclosed the conduct of the campaign, and the pur-
pose for which the war was undertaken. Therefore, if he
said anything to discourage the course which the noble
lord and the Cabinet seemed to have determined on taking,
• that which he shouldotherwisethought a very
doing
indiscreet thing—always
supposing that they were not now
discussing the question of oscupying the Crimea after the
he could only plead the example set by the noble lord in
' work ;had been done. (FT
•—ear, hear.) The noble lord
knew best what orders had been sent out, and if at that
time the expedition had actually gone to the Crimea and
captured Sebastopol, it
ear.
was clear they could do no harm by
discussing it. ( ) He
had never been afraid
of the aggressive power of
Russia, but had always drawn
a distinction between its aggressive and its defensive
Hear, h
power. No ono would now obtrude the old argument
against a mere outwork of a
ahyo Turkish empire. Why had
Huns and Goths. This overrunning Europe and
that
ue vg ie v there
t rhwhe aa invasion
i sdma n,
sv br loolf ttwhuues s is
au
overspread the continent,
Russia failed,—why had she 19ade
such an important de-
arm y from her southern cam
Moscow, she had to go
nearly 1,000 miles before she came to the scene of operation,
through a coun
de-
had
third-ratebeen s hparkoevni province
try where there was scarcely a mile of civi- , It
lised road, and no railways. . was a three monthsjour-
neyonet nth
fs p rt
from her most southern capital to the scene of the war.
these enormous That accounted for armies on paper being
dissipated and vanishing awaybefore they came into action.
Any one who had been ifiti
Russia and had studied
be we aware that, however
t wa • a be her armies s utterly imp 'hi tl
e,
mighty ms,ht
that
a country so thinly populated, those armies could ever
be concentrated on one point. Look at the battle of Boro-
dino. Napoleon gave more than 12 months' notice of his
invasion of Russia; ho marched 600,000 troops, and had
all the force of Europe to back him. Russia could not
bring more than 100,000 men into action at Borodino, and
most of them were clad as peasants and armed
with
scythes. He had said again and again and been very
much ridiculed for it, that Russia could not snake a cam-
paign across her own borders without coming to Western
Europe for a loan ; and she had not finished this first
campaign without being compelled to come to Amsterdam
to sue in forma pauperis for a loan. After that, no panic
need be entertained, nor need it be thrown in the teeth
of those who wished to look the subject in the face, that
they were the friends of Russia. But we were not now
content with going to war to restore Turkey to what she
was, but we were to take possession of some portion of the
Russian territory. (Hear, hoar.) He presumed that what
the cabinet meant was this—not to take Sebastopol and
come away again, that would be nothing ; but to occupy
the Crimea. (Hear, hear.) And he heldw tell the noble
lord, that unless the thing was done had committed
a great indiscretion that night, because he had given notice
to the enemy, and no prudent general would have done
that, because if the point of attack was known it would
be the point of defence. (Hear, hear.) From the quality
of the English and French troops now)
at
Varna, ana from
the emulation of the two nations, there
was scarce an' thing human beings could do that they would not accom-
plish in the field of .battle—(hear, hear)—but against
fevers the strongest men and the greatest courage
were as impotent as the child er the invalid—nay, were
more likely to be attacked by the disease. (Hear,
hear.) He hoped this was an element of the difficulty of
the enterprise which had been entertained by the noble
lord, As to the feeling and disposition of the population,

, f iiksah_....hewl?ltehertF3htta6tfitt:khea: tahnecrihria.
LarctrcgT,eno.,,e, riaoti„toa,pkfainrgopro•sysserbs:
swio:aonf the-Crimeaimportant
fhHoaleldo wishedwsGreece;aei followed
bahybe
about
uol
was
tt
tahttahoe
ensruako
consideration n and
lc: seneegtsands
kingdom
discussionnhe
-I
i. of Greece
thde fenal
had t oKsanguine beenitnhpgeh°l 1
.kftoihhnugn deonermdi
thei of
ministers, or the Queen of Greece. He readily admitted
that all that the noble lord, Mr. Wise, or anyybodvelse
justice. But if the creation of that monarchy had not been
of thirty years ago expeited, that was not attributable to
the Greek people. (Hear, hear.) He was willing
to admit
that there had been a complete failure of the Greek h
monarc y,
no failure but he maintained that there had been
in the
Greek race. The Duke of Wellington was in power when
the Greek monarchy was founded, and, being no friend to
revolutions, he was anxious to take as little territory as he
could from Turkey. He drew a lino, which left to Turkey
those portions of Greece which were the very cradle of the
revolution and of the Hellenic race. The moment the war
broke out between RusSia and Turkey, th found h
ey t e op-
poi:tin:lay, aided by their 00-religionists, • • tof • • in
gloms s, rising rebellion, and they would have done the same if Turkey was at ,
war with any other power. There were letters from Lord
4tratford de Bedcliffet an,. A
communications from our owr
colisuls, all of whict predicted this rebellion of the Ckris4 ' a
population of Turkey ; and Lord Clarendon hip- -".tan
Writing to Lord Westmoreland ild June last pm- -'self, in
hiry would rise, not to aid Russia, but to - -r; said that ,
Lord Clarendon and other ministers b- - .0., I themselves.
agai.ra that one great object of tb.• --d stated again and
rights of the Christian populs' • -,, war was to secure the
due to them that the b-- -tam in Turkey ; and it was
justice
h nld. see done to the
race, Expediency -"lse '°—
also required it. The population of
Turkey in En- •
at least
4.1_ .ope was not Mahomedan, but Christian-
-aree-fourths of them • and though the Turks
aloro might now be fighting the ' battle behind their stone
walla at Silistria, when peace was restored the interests of
the mass of the people would have to be considered.
They could not permanently maintain the ascendancy
of the Mahomedan race over three quarters of the
populations. The Christians were the sole progressive race
in Turkey. It might be said, " See how the Turks have
fought." They had always fought well; he found no fault
with their military prowess, but there was an absence of
civil and social organisation. Three-fourths of the popula-
tion were most progressive, because they were Christians
—(hear, hear)—for Mahomedan institutions were not pro-
gressive or expansive, as Christian institutions were. He
wanted to know, once for all, whether in the war in which
we were engaged we were allied with the sovereignties
against the nationalities. (Hear, hear.) He might ask
that with perfect fairness, because he would not interfere
either for one or the other. (Hear.) Were they going to
carry out that policy of non-interference with respect to
other countries ? He maintained that the Hungarians and
the Italians had no grievance to complain of as compared
with the Greeks, because the Greeks were not only de-
prived of all liberty, but of all law. (Hear.) His hon.
friend (Mr. Layard) shook his head, but would his hon.
friend deny that a Greek could not be made a magistrate ?
Could he be made a cadi ? The Turkish law was adminis-
tered under the Koran, and thereforo no Christian could
administer it. But what was to be their policy with re-
gard to other nationalities? There was a great delusion
amongst the people as to the object of the war, and there
was a row of hon. gentlemen below him who shared in it.
(Laughter.) He knew their sentiment's, They sympathised
with the Italians and the Hungarians. Those who were
once called " Young India"—(laughter)—represented the
delusion of the multitude out of doors on this subject.
They were under the impression that this war was carried
on in the interest of Italy and Hungary. What was the
fact? They lately heard the language of the leader of the
Hungarians addressed to sympathising multitudes of the
people of England, and more powerful or beautiful lan-
guage was never given utterance to, though it came from
a foreigner. (Hear.) And what did he say? He said
this was not a war in the interest of Hungary, but to
put down Hungary—that it was a war in the interest of
the oppressors of Hungary. Was that true, or was it
not ? The Hungarian chief was, he supposed, as good a
judge of what was done in the interest of the Hungarian
people as any one else; yet he said that the origin and
purpose of the war was to increase the power of the op-
pressors of Hungary, and to rivet more firmly the chains
by which she was bound in the grasp of Austria. Those
honourable and deluded gentlemen below him—(laughter)
resorted to a deiice which was not founded in logic or
reason. They said the present Government were not car-
rying on the war as they ought to do. They wanted some-
body else in the war department, they wanted some one
else at the head of the Government. (Hear, hear, and
laughter.) They called for Lord Pahnerston. (Hear,
hear.) Well, what said the chiefs of the down-trodden
nationalities to that ? The two chiefs of the Italian party
and the Huagarian party said that when tbanoble lord, on
whom they were told to found their aspirations, was asked
to give a merely moral support to them in their contest,
he did not so much as lift a finger in their favour. (Hear,
and laughter.) If there was any one on whom they had
less reliance than another, it was, and he spoke advisedly,
that noble lord, whom those honourable and deluded gen-
tlemen wished to hold the helm, in order that the war
might be carried on, not in the interest of Austria, but of
Hungary and Italy. He did not say this to disparage the
noble lord, because he never asked him to go to war in
defence of nations, and he must do the noble lord the jus-
tice to say that he was not himself the author of that great
imposture which had been practised in his name. He
(Mr. Cobden) never encouraged the idea that this war
was undertaken- for the independence of the Hungarians
and Italians. To think of an alliance between Lord Aber-
deen, Napoleon 111 and the Grand Turk„in favour of the
independence of nations, was the most surprising of all
public hallucinations. (Hear, hear.) But the noble lord
made a plunge to-night. It was a long time coming cer-
tainly. (Hear.) He said he found it necessary to state
what the object of the war was, and he used some lan-
guage about Turkey which was calculated rather to dis-
courage those who thought that the oppressed peoples
of Europe had an interest in the matter. The noble
lord said that they were going to war for the sovereign
rights of the Sultan ; but he fancied the people of this
country would not long continue to bear a heavy pressure
of taxation merely to maintain the sovereign rights of the
Sultan of Turkey. (Hear, hear.) But he would not pursue
the subject any further. There would be ample opportu-
nities for discussing it hereafter. But if the noble lord
bad truly stated the opinion of the Cabinet as to the ob-
_ .

jest of the war, he would only say that it appeared to him
just as likely that they would be able to take a slioe of ter-
ritory from the United States and keep it permanently as
they were to take it from Russia. If they were not'con-
tent with driving the Russians out of the Turkish terri•
tory, and establishing the Turkish Government, but
thought it better to involve the country in a protracted
war, which one or two additional screws of the income tax
would not be likely to put an end to, they would have to
put on a heavier amount of taxation, with which the people
of this country would be soon dialatisfied. The noble lord
.was a great reader of history, and be was surprised he did
not bear in mind what Mr. Grenville wrote on the 28th of
April, 1797, in a letter to be found in the Stowe papers :
" Indeed Lord Granville declares that a blind and unrea-
soning eagerness to go to war is ono of our most fixed na-
tional characteristics. In a letter to the Marquis of Buck-
ingham, dated April 28, 1797, published in The Courts
and Cabinets of George 111.,' he says, 'lt is a curious
speculation in history to see how often the good people of
England have played this game over and over again, and
how incorrigible they are in it. To desire war without
reflection, to be unreasonably elated with success, to be
still more unreasonably depressed by difficulties, and to
call out for peace with an impatience which makes suit-
able terms unattainable, are the established maxims and
the regular progress of the popular mind in this country."

Mr. LAYARD said, that after the opinions he ventured
to express on former occasions on this subject, it would
not be expected that he would throw any difficulty in the
way of the Government obtaining those additional supplies
which were necessary for the conduct of the war. There
was, however, one thing which be believed to be absolutely,
necessary, and in which he believed the house would con-
cur with him in a great degree, and that was, that before
they granted the estimates, they should receive a distinct
and satisfactory assurance from the Government as to their
object in carrying on the war, and the ends they had in
view. He wished, however, in the first place to say a few
words in reply to his hon. and deluded friend behind him
—(laughter)---if his hon. friend would permit him to return
the compliment he paid to others. He believed that his
hon. friend laboured under a still greater delusion than he
and his friends around him. Before he personally knew his
hon. friend he read his speeches with great admiration,
but those *ere speeches on a subject with which he was well
acquainted (Hear, and laughter.) But on the present
occasion he heard his hon. friend indulge in such incon-
sistencies as surprised him in a man of his acuteness.
His hon. friend referred to'the strength of Russia, the
state of the Christian population in Turkey, and the revo-
lutionary element in Europe. His hon. friend compared
Russia to a wave which was broken into spray on the first
rock it dashed against. But was not that the very reason
that it should be resisted now lest it should go on again
in greater force, and with a better opportunity ? (Hear.)
Surely while the power of Russia was not yet fully developed
it would be more easy to settle the question at issue. It
would not do to wait until they absorbed the Greeks as
they had absorbed the Tartars of the Crimea. The Turks
had always shown the greatest readiness to shelter Polish,
Hungarian, and Italian refugees, and had protected M.
Kossuth although threatened at the time with the ven-
geance of two powerful empires. He believedthat his hon.
friend the member for the West Riding wrote at the time
to the Turkish Minister, promising that if Kossuth were
protected Turkey should henceforth have the benefit of his
(Mr. Cobden's) countenance and support. (Laughter.) The
Turks had acted in a similar way towards all refugees, and
in return had received the greatest ingratitude. He trusted
that he should hoar no more about the Greeks in these
discussions. The time had come when terms might be
made with the Turks to respect their privileges, but that-
to a considerable extent had been done already. The hon.,
gentleman, after alluding to the badness of the com-
missariat, said, another point to which allusion had
been made in another place was the enormous expense
of the transport service, that item being set down at three
millions, a sum that would buy all the transports in the
country. He believed that to the Himalaya alone 50,0001.
had been paid as demurrage. It had also been observed
that the number of accidents in our transport service was
great, while the French did not meet with a single acci-
dent. Another point to which exception had been taken
was that we had not sent out any officer to ascertain the
real strength of the Turkish army. Had we done so, all
the ridiculous fears about the Russians matching in a
week to Constantinople might have been avoided. We
had not sent them English officers, a thing which would
have been of the greatest advantage, as was_provetih lin
the gallant defence of Captains Butler and Nss Ty.
Silistria. (Hear, hear.) He believed that bad it not
been for those two officers the place could
hneowt
officeli
held out. (Hear, hear.) With respect to !,11
of War Minister, it could not be denfie(tlhethatthe
country hid fixed upon one member
beingo
appointed
Govern-
ment for the office, and that his not
was taken as an evidence that the Governmeltwerenot as
• decided in the prosecution of the
,war as the
serious or
people wished them to be. The noble lord (I almerston)
was identified with a known policy, and hence the country
had looked to him as the man who would prosecute the
war with the best effect. In some of his (fir. Layard's)
letters from the East, he
been aske w did not the
Government carry on thiswar by contdrh y
act.(Laughter.)
Really there was some sense in this question, and from it
a practical inference might be drawn as, to the course the
Government ought to have pursued. It the hon. member
for the Wick district (Mr. Laing) were about to construct
another crystal palace, would not he cast his eye around
him for the best assistants that he could find? Surely he
would not choose one engineer because be was averse to
another. The Government ought to have acted on the
plan which the hon. gentleman would have followed,
and have advised her Majesty accordingly. Reference
had been made in that debate to the case of Persia.
That, indeed, was another instance of the mistaken.
course which had been followed in this matter. (Hear.)
Although the noble lord the President of the Council had
made a speech which was highly satisfactory in many
parts, it should be borne in mind that he was not the

Prime Minister of this country. Some time ago he (Mr. Lay-
ari.l).though t t..h= s uty-to bring to thernotiee-of thelouse
a speeen,inade anotner place by the Prime Minister, a
speech which, at-the time, every one thought called for
notice. \V"Wit was the history of that speech? A noble
and learned lord thought it his duty to bring forward in
another place the question of tine conduct of the war, and
was Answered by the noble earl, the Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs, in a highly satisfactory statement, setting,
forth the true policy of F.,,ngland. Notwithstanding this,
Lord Aberdeen made a speech directly contrary in its ef-
fect. The very aaxae thing might occur at any time—might
occur, indeed, at that very moment. After all,_ Lord
Aberdeen was the head of the Government, and the house
knew very well, from what had occurred during the last
few months, that a Minister might he dismissed without
having a word of nOtice.
e(Hear, Lear.) Why during the
temporary suspension c
would now take the conaiitutional machine, which
the President Pksce in a short time, the noble lord
bf •the Council,. or the Secretary of
St ts
a-e —r the nome Department, might be told that their
kPr„natee, -,vas no longer required. (Cheers.) The house
tror: .saat last year during the recess most important goes-
,' .s connected with the negotiations then going on were
secided by two or three members of the Cabinet. Another
' circumstance to which he thought it right to refer was a
passage which occurred in a despatch of Lord J. Russell to
Sir H. Seymour in February last. His lordship—notwith-
standing that he must have known the past policy of the
Russian Government—stated that " her Majesty's Govern-
ment were persuaded that no course could be followed
more wise than that which his Imperial Majesty had so
long pursued." It would thus appear that Lord Aber-
deen took but a limited view of the object of the
war. In his (Mr. Layard's) opinion, it was only on the
understanding that the war was necessary- for the liberty of
Europe that it ought to have been entered upon. (Hear.)
It was either necessary to enter into the war for the pre-
servation of the balance of power in Europe, or it was ad-
visable to allow Russia to acquire a certain influence iu
Turkey. But the Government appeared to take a half-
and-half view of measures. (Hear, hear.) After Russia
crossing the Pruth, instead of taking up the position we
ought to have done, we threw ourselves in the arms of Aus-
tria—a power which could have but one object in vice-
the restoration of the status quo ante bellunt. (Hear,'
hear.) From the very first he thought it a fatal mistake
to allow the conferences which had taken place to be held
at Vienna. Lord Aberdeen had indeed himself stated that
he considered France as of greater weight than Russia
and Austria united. If so, why burden this country
with the compelled, the unwilling alliance of Aus-
tria ? The effect of our policy showed itself in the
fact that our troops were now at Varna, leaving the
Turks to fight their battles by themselves. (Hear, hear.)
Although the Turks had successfully defended Silistria, the
house must not suppose that they were able to beat the
Russians in the open plain. (Hear, hear.) Behind walls
the Turks fought like a man who had something to de-
fend, ,but in thaplain the case was altogether different; and
as long as Austria maintained her present neutrality, this
country could not undertake any of those attempts to'
which the noble lord had alluded that evening. It was,
therefore, of the utrnost importance that the Government
should make up its mind as to the true position of Austria.
On that point he must say the noble lord's speech was very
unsatisfactory. With regard to the objects of the war,
he had heard a good deal about the questionable scheme of
opening the Dardanelles. That could never be done
as long as Russia held Sebastopol, and had a fleet there.
Did any man believe that, if the Dardanelles had
been open a twelvemonth ago, Russia would not
have sent her fleet into the Bosphorus ? (Hear, hear.)
-The Dardanelles being closed, the appearance of the
Russian fleet at-the mouth of the Bosphorus would have
constituted an act of war; and they had to consider well
what they had to lose as well as to gain by the opening of
those straits. It was part of the strategy of Russia to keep
her fleet at Sebastopol. He was not in a hurry for victo-
ries, and should be the last person to engage in a clamour
on the subject; but after what had occurred, the country
expected that something would be done before the close of
the year. (Hear, hear.) Never had finer fleets been sent
from this country ; never had there been an opportunity
of doing greater things., He would not oppose the vote,
but, on the contrary, would vote for anything which could
be turned to good and useful account.
Lord D. STUART had not the least desire to interfere
with the vote proposed. On the contrary, he wished to
afford every assistance to the Government in carrying on
with vigour the war in which the country was engaged.
The noble lord the menber for the city of London had re-
ferred in his speech to the wish of some members who de-
sired that the house should re-assemble in autumn. 'lt was
his opinion that the house, in voting the money, and in
consenting to place the vote of credit in the hands of the
Government, should endeavour to obtain from the Go-
vernment such an assurance as had been referred to. Her
Majesty should be asked not to exercise her power of pro-
roguing Parliament, but to re-assemble shortly after the
recess. Such an assurance would give satisfaction to the
house and to the country. They were in a position of
critical character, having entered into a struggle of civi-
lisation against barbarism. The people had come forward
ready to submit to any sacrifices that were necessary.
(Hear, hear.) They did so because they felt that Govern-
ment should be supported in what they took each an in-
terest in. While making sacrifices, they wished to see
corresponding energies on the part of the Ministers. (Hear,
hear.) They were anxious that these sacrifices should not
be made without obtaining equivalent advantages. The
people of the country looked to the conduct of the war
with a jealous eye, and, he might safely add, with feelings
of apprehension, and with a certain degree of suspicion.
(Hear, hear.) Their apprehensions were not aroused as
regarded the enemy, much less as to the prowess of their
naval and land forces ; but the suspicion was, that some
of those who were in power had not their hearts in
the war, and were not honest in their intentions to
prosecute it with vigour. (Cheers.) He had no,
doubt that this was the general opinion of the country.
Men of all patties concurred in opinion that the
Minister now at the head of the Government was not the
man who ought to be in power during the continuation of
a.war like the present. He repeated that this was the
general opinion ; and however placemen and Peelites might
flatter themselves that it was not so, he assured them they
would-find it out'if they would only go among the people.
1 It was his firm belief that if a meeting were to be held in
Drury-lane Theatre, in order to express the opinion of the
public upon the mode of proceeding adopted by the Prime
Minister, the place would be full from the gallery to the
pit, and that it would be unanimous in condemning him.
The people were ready to give their money to carry on the
war ; but they wanted to have value for it. When they
saw vast armaments proceeding from this country arma-
ments as great and as grand as any we had ever sent forth,
and that nothing was accomplished by them, they could
not help being possed with suspicions that, somehow or
other, orders had been given to their gallant commanders
which prevented them from using the power at their dis-
posal. (Hear.)' They could not help believing that direc-
tions had been given to carry on the war against the great
" gentleman " of Russia in a gentlemanlik way, and not
to press him too far. (Hear.) The people of England also
saw that those who had been most engaged in resisting
him diplomatically, who had most exposed the designs
and pretensions of the emperor of Russia, and who had
done most to present him to the world in his true colours,
had not, when they returned to their own country,
been received with any marks of special favour.
(Hear, hear.) Sir Hamilton Seymour, who had con-
ducted the important mission of which he had charge
in a manner that did infinite credit to his temper, ability,
and capacity, came home lately, and it was supposed
that hardly any reward would have been too great for
him. (Hear, hear.) But what reward had Sir Hamilton Se-
ymour received? What mark of royal favour had her Ma-
jesty been advised by her responsible Ministers to confer
upon him? Yet we saw at the same time Russian noble-
men visiting this country during the war, and treated as
the favoured guests of Cabinet Ministers. (Hear, and
" Oh.") All these were things which made an impression
upon the people of this country, and inspired them with
distrust of the Government, or at least of its head. To
be sure,,the house had to-night heard a very spirited, an
able, and a noble speech from the noble lord the leader of
the house; and he (Lord D. Stuart) could not help, whilst
listening to that discourse, without experiencing the com-
mon feeling of three-fourths of the house, what a pity it
was that such a statesman, who could utter such sound,
noble, and truly British views, should only occupy a com-
paratively subordinate situation in the councils of the
country. (Hear, hear.) The distrust entertained of the
Government in the country was general, but it was con-
fined to the Prime Minister. Nor could any one be sur-
prised at it, for, at the very moment when the noble lord
(Lord J. Russell) was, in such eloquent sentences, expound-
ing the policy of the country, Lord Aberdeen was, in
another-place, uttering a speech of a different description,
a speech which he had been told deserved the reproaches
of the country Tor its lukewarmuess and faintheartedness.
What was the use of the noble lord the leader of that house
making vigorous declarations so long as they were counte-
racted by another Minister, more powerful, in another
place ? There was only one thing which could dispel the
distrust in the Government. that had so long existed, and
hich had grown more and more till it had reached the
highest pitch. Ile believed, if the Ministry had thought
proper to advise her Majesty to appoint a certain Mini-
ster as Secretary-at-War, the country might have been
reconciled to the Government of Lord Aberdeen. He be-
lieved that if his noble friend the Home Secretary had been
appointed to that office, his name would have been a gua-
rantee to the people for the war being carried on with vigour
and energy. There was no doubt that the very name of
Palmerston carried with it an amount of moral force equal
to a whole army. (Hear.) His noble friend's name was
known in war as well as in peace ; and wherever it was
known it was both loved and feared, for it was synonymous
with the power and the strength of England. It was ru-
moured, however, that the Prime Minister had declared,
or had been heard to say, that so long as he was in power
Lord Palmerston should never have the conduct of the
war. (Hear.) The opinions he had expressed he firmly
en erect were the general opinions of the country. Let
the house consider whether they were founded m truth.'
Toffoutzeiagrtioenai
If they were only senseless clamour, it was the duty of the
of Commons to show thathaidt
shpoadke
House
armaments lord (Lord Russell)
sent cut fresh this country, Grand
armaments
they were; butup to this time they had produced little or
no effect.
He gave every credit to those at the head of de-
partments for the extraordinary promptitude with which
they had equipped and sent them forth ; but he must ob-
serve that they ought to have been prepared much sooner.
The army ought to have been sent to the neighbourhood of
Turkey before war was declared, in order that it might
w
have acted at once. In war, promptitude
No one knew that better than his noblefrieansdevtehritShiecurge-.
tary of-State for thirtiome Department. (Hear.) He had
always shown great promptitude. Look at his conduct
With regard to portugal. When he had made up his mind
action immediately followed: The same occurred with re-
spect to Greece. But in the present case, though the army
was sent out with great promptitude and in admirable
order, did it go out to fight the enemy? No, it first went to
eat oranges at Malta, then to Gallipoli, and then to Scutari.
At length it got to Varna and at Varna it has since re-
mained, unable to move, because there had not been the
forethought to prepare proper means for its advance ; the
commissariat was not ready. That department had not
provided horses or mules, or beasts of burden of any kind.
The army, therefore was yet at Varna—very well as a de-
monstration, but unfit for action. Somewhat similar ob-
servations might be made as to the navy. What was
wanted, both in the Black Sea and in the Baltic, was
vessels of small draught. No operation on the Danube
could be undertaken without them. An officer in the
eic.
tt
fleet when in the, Bosphorus whom be knew pooh-poohed
the idea of our going to war, "
because,"
said
doe little'
we
have no vessels of shallow draught, and we can
or nothing without them." Nor yet in the Balticie ,were
there any vessels of shallow draught. He wascthwoihn
formed that we had no steam-vessel in the Baltic
drew less than 11 feet, but what was requireds inrathvaintgsesa
was not vessels drawing 11 feet, but Stearaer a
and 3 feet. Many weeks ago a naval officer,
why not go to
a command mentioned this. He was naked, now holding

to the Admiralty " Oh," be said, " I should only be
iinnlabed:4-43heroifieer took tare not-to go to the Admiralty
and therefore he waynot snubbed, but he got a command.
He believed it would be possible to procure steamers of
200 tons drawing only three feet, which would cs,rry en.
or two heavy guns. Vessels of this kind he was told were
built in. America fit to navigate any sea in the world.
There was, however, nothing of the sort in the Bahia
fleet.

Sir J. GRAHAM—That is a mistake,
Lord D. STUART said if the .statement was made is
mistake he was happy., to be corrected ; but such state-
meats had been made, and if the right hon. baronet wan
incredulous, he could. give him references. At all events, a
great many useful 14149 might be taken in this respect
from our brethren on , the -other , side of the Atlantic- It
was perfeetly evident that the war in the Baltic must be
carried on by means Of bombardment, if at all. To do that
was informed that in the
tEhaelrteicmflueestt,bethmeveortvls ;nob
enutetuaing
as
mortar,
He had
been assured that when Admiral Plunixidge went to Svea-
berg, he found there seven ships of the line and threes
others moored in the ice. Why were they not attacked ?
The .supposition was that there were
It would have been easy to attack thein, but why were
they
Russia • too hard. • Cronstadt no doubt
erderefiontnatttetacpkveedee?
was
a very formidable place, but he was assured it was
accessible on the north side to vessels of a very consider..
able size,iand that if twenty vessels were sent there with
mortars, towed by steamerertlie place might be bombarded
and the, fleet destroyed. But there were no mortars in
the fleet. Heavy guns it certainly had, but no mortars.
The castles in the Mores were taken by means of mortars.
Something of the same sort might easily have been done
against Crone's*. Cronstadt might by, this time have
been laid *ruins; and he had this opinion of ilia gallant.
officer who commanded the fleet that he would have don
it, if he had been supplied by the Government with the
requisite means, and if he had not received orders to bold
his hands. (Hear, hear.) When the people saw 'these
things it was not surprising that they were disntisfied,
and that they should imagine that some perron having
preponderating influence in the Government, should not
be in earnest in this war. Though!the coreridtteeMight be
ready to vote the money required for the 'war, he thought
it would not be desirable for Parliamvat to separate with-
out having some assurance as to the +,:ime of its being re-
assembled, because there was a fe,-ar that, when members
were away, the head of the Ca oinet would be most desi-
rous of bringing the war to b, conclusion, no matter how ;
and that negotiations
result in an ignominie,
if. s
nt igt
her o nna°l wrJuld be entered into which would
us, an impolitic, and an nnlasting
peacnot.. (Hear.) D would be, he .believed, perfectly con-
tint(P-imithogmueove6arn adpavdriietses. to her Majesty, pray-
ment. He had come
down to the houset d firm
and
o- ayfirmly resolved to make such
motion; x
• „ nd he had consulted the Speaker upon the sub-
lee tue right bongentlemen b •
being always ready kindly
to give advice_'•
is to an hon. member who asked it. He
could not, he
.benev make'
into committee, such a motion upon going
, nor could he oppose the Speaker leaving
the chair, because it would not be respectful to her Ma-
jesty to have so interfered with her most gracious message.
He then supposed it would be open to him in committee of
supply to move an, amendment to the same effect; but
Mr. Speaker had informed him that, according to the forms
of the house, it was not competent for him to make such a
motion. He was, therefore, unable to make the motion
to-night. If he had the opportunity he would tell hon.
gentlemen what was the motion he intended to snake —(a
laugh)—and if her had the opportunity he would make it
still. It was exactly like one made at the beginning of the
present century by a great statesman, who ought to be
venerated by the Government bench—Mr. Charles Grey,
afterwards Earl Grey. It was this—" That an address be
presented to her Majesty humbly to pray her Majesty to
be graciously pleased not to prorogue her Parliament until
she should • have been, enabled to afford to this house
more full information with regard to her relations
with foreign powers, and to her, views and propects in the
contest in which her Majesty is engaged." (Hear.) Such
was the motion: He could not make it now ; but if he
could devise any means of doing so without violating the
technical forms of the house, he certainly would. His idea
was not that they should be sitting de lie in diem all through
August and September. That would be taxing the patience
of hon. members too much. But supposing the motion
should be made, that it should find favour with the house,
and that it should be the Queen's pleasure to.consent to
the wishes of theihituee, Parliament, instead of being pro-
rogued, might .be, adjourned from time to, time.
Mr. DISRAELI--I have listened for nearly six hours to
a series of epeedhes delivered by some of the principal sup-
porters ()flier Majesty's Ministers, which have been pretty
, .
well divided into criticisms upon some of the most im-
portant members of that administration, and upon the
policy which they have of late been pursuing. Sir, I do
not know that I should have been tempted to appeal to 'you
at all. upon this occasion had it not appeared in some de-
gree that to an observation and a suggestion 'thrown out
by myself we are indebted for a great, portion of this de-
bate. It is true that when the noble lord and his colleagues
gave notice of their intention to ask for this vote of credit,
I did express my hope that the noble lord would be able
on this occasion to assure the house that it would have an
opportunity of meeting at the latter end of the year, in
order to be well acquainted with the state of affairs, and
that it might exercise that control which is often so desir-
able and salutary over the conduct of the Minister, or to
do that which the House of Commons by its sittings can
often do to the advantage of a Minister, namely, aid a ld, if
need be, stimulate him in his course in the moment of
trial and exigency. I was not aware that that was a very
unreasonable or unprecedented suggestion ; and I did
hope that the noble lord might have found it conve-
nient to tell Its that he and his colleagues would feel it
their duty to recommend her Majesty to call Parliament
together probably in the month of November for that
purpose. The noble lord, however,bas not felt it his duty
to follow that suggestion 4 But I think that the commit.
tee will feel that it is not in any way an unreasonable pro-
position ; and I do not see how its advisability can be bet-
ter tested than by calling back our recollection to the posi-
tion of this house, or of the country rather, during the
course of last autumn. Everybody can remember the great
ambiguity with which the course of public affairs last au-
tumn was involved, the dissatisfaction, the doubt, the un-
certainty, the hesitation which seemed to characterise the
conduct of all public men, and the course of public policy.
I don't know .that there was a more general feeling through-
out the country at the end of last autumn, than the wish
that Parliament was assembled to elicit some distinct ex-
pression of policy on the part of the Government, and to
encourage the Government if their policy was found deser-
ving of support. Well, Parliament did not assemble ; but
whist did occur ? No one can forget the unfortunate ca-
tastrophe of Sinop°, whichhappened at the end of autumn;
and does anybody suppose, for example, that had Parlia-
ment been sitting some weeks before that unfortunate
affair occurred, if, in consequence of the representations of
Parliament, and expressions of feeling elicited by its sit-
tings, the British fleet had entered the Black Sea three
weeks earlier than it did, who does not feel that the affair
of Sinope' in all probability, would possibly not have oc-
curred? (Hear, hear.) I imagine that to be the opinion
not prevalent only, but universal. Why, one of the greatest
mistakes in all our course has been the delay that took
place in the entry of the British fleet into the Black Sea.
(Hear, hear.) It was a delay that has led to the greater
part of the difficulties with which we are now surrounded,
and which we are still labouring to overcome. Therefore,
in my opinion nothing could be more reasonable than
when a country is involved in a war, and a war of this
character, at a moment of exigency like the present, that
Parliament should assemble, and by its presence exercise
that control over the Minister, or give to him that support
which the state of affairs may require. Sir, it appears that
the noble lord who has last addressed us is also of the same
opinion, for he meditated a much atronger step than I did
myself, as is evident from the details he has just given us.
I do not myself exactly understand „why the Government
should have been so alarmed by the notice which reached
them of the intention of the noble lord (Lord D. Stuart),
because as the house had gone into committee, and the
Lord President had moved the vote, it was not open to the
noble lord the member for Marylebone to make a motion of
the kind that he has just referred to. Therefore, sir,although
we may not have been able to-night much to advance towards
the attainment of that object, of which I believe the country
generally highly approves,viz., areassembling of Parliamente
near the end of autumn ; still I think this will notiltiav
become an insignificant night in our deliberations, as has
t- on
been one pregnant with most important declavraoilsliew,
the part of her Majesty's Minister. (Loudfch
le the noble
sir, though we have not had a promise from
his colleagues
lord the leader of this house that he ander
will recommend her Majesty to summon h
the Parliamentnoble lord
at an.earlier period than usual—although
sir,has not been successful in
who has just addressed you,
himself—we have had
to-night, from the organ of her Majesty's Government in
• ects
this house, a distinct announcement
of the definite obj
•which we are now engaged.
and purposes of the war in which
before in h
this house discus-
(Hear, hear.) We have
discus-
sions upon the cause of the war. I shall not dwell upon
that subject. I have expressed my opinion upon it. I
am not ashamed to say that I still adhere to that opinion,
I think that the cause of this war is the discordant ma-
terials of which the Government is composed. I think the
war.has been caused by a coalition Government—(hear,
hear)—and I believe there is no opinion more generally ac-
cepted than that. (Oh !) I know very well that you may
say that the war has been produced by the ambition and
by the aggressive action of Russia ; but the ambition of
Russia might have been checked without war—its aggres-
sive action might have been restrained without war. Yon
might have had recourse to the same means to which Ton
had successful recourse
before,
and obtained without involving, the count in this your object
ry great conflict I am
this
not stating as my individual opinion—l state it as an
answer to those who would maintain that it is not the
Policy of the Government, nor the individual elements of
,which the Government is constituted, that have occasioned
this war.
I am sure that I have ever 'refrained from
alluding to the conduct of the war. "As long as the Go-
vernment appealed, to the confidence-. of Parliament to
conduct that war, in which they had recommended their
Sovereign to engage, I felt it to be our duty to extend on
, that subject to the Government no niggard confidence. I
have felt it to be my duty to agree to every vote for which
they have asked, and to avoid any criticism upon any part
of their conduct with respect to the war which might
easily have been provoked. I hardly know of any 009°
from which the House of Commons should more rierc'u
iY
refrain than from that of eagerly criticising the
Con-
duct of the commanders of expeditions. (Hear. hear.)
I know very well that, under any
l subject toa
commencement of a great war like this must a 3 circumstances, the
many accidents which the greatest foresight the amplest
of resources, and the greatest prudence
after sitting here six
and discretion could
not prevent ; and I am sure that
months objecting to the cause of the war, which I think
we had a legitimate right to do,
no
ono can accuse any
of obtruding himself upon
gen-
tleman on this side of the hoes©
the house with criticisms upon. the conduct of the war.
elves the right of forming an
opinion with regard to
We, of course, reserved to o
that subject ; even if we did 'not
express it, we reserved toourselves the right when the fit-
not being precluded from such an
expression of our opinion ting occasion arrive( 1
)i°f
_en
by
being reminded that at the
make
of any contrary observations. I only
assert the privileges
time we did not
members
in
making
this remark,
but certainly so far as affairs have at present proceeded no
word has escaped my lips, y have
escaped do I recollect that the ave
escaped t hose of any other hon. member on this side of the
i ue, which could throw any impediment in the way of
the prosecution of the war in which we are engaged, or
which could allow any Administration to say, in case the
consequences might be of a disastrous kind, that it was the
captious criticisms of the Opposition which prevented them
obtaining that support from the people, and from in-
spiring that spirit into our commanders, which are so ne-
cessary in such an emergency. (Hear, hear.) But, sir,
the
though we have our opinion as to the origin and cause of
, and though we have abstained from expressing
any opinion upon its conduct, I must say that I have lis-
tened to-sight with some degree—l will not say merely of
surprise, but of consternation—to the announcement which
the noble lord has made this evening of the complete ea

absolute resolution at which the Cabinet has arrived as to
the objects of the war, and the only terms upon which
peace is to be concluded. (Hear,thear.) Now, do not let
me misrepresent the noble lord. I understood him, in order
that he might justify this vote, in order that he might dis-
arm all opposition—l understood from him—that he was
going, without reserve, to allow us to be the part-
ners of the secrets of the Cabinet. I understood the
noble lord to say that the house should understand clearly
what the objects were which the Government proposed to
thetnselves in the conduct of this war, and without the
accomplishment of which they would not be satisfied. The
principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia, in the first place,
are not to be permitted to come again under the protecto -
rate of Russia. (Hear.) The second point is, that the strong
fortress of Sebastopol is to be destroyed, and the o Crimea
to be conquered and occupied. Indeed, the last is f,OO rrse
the necessary necessary consequence of destroying SebsstePel .
beatopol, then, is to be destroyed, as I understand from
the noble lord—
Lord J. RUSSELL, who dissented, here said—l may as
well state that what I said was that I thought Russia
could not be allowed to maintain the menacing attitude
which she has lately done by keeping so large a fleet at
Sebastopol. (Loud cries of "Oh, oh.
Mr. DISRAELI resumed—Well, sir, I think I will have
done some good in rising, for I appeal to every hon. gen-
tleman, wherever he sits—(loud cries of hear, hear)—l
gentleman, wherever he sits in
appeal, I say, to every hon.
this house, and whatever may be his opinions (hear, hear),
whether he has not been for the last six hours in a fool's
Paradise—(hear, and a laugh)—whether every speech that
has been made, and every vote that has been refrained
from, has not in fact been actuated by an idea totally dif-
ferent from that to which the noble lord now gives ex-
pression ? (Hear, hear.) Without questioning in any way
the accuracy of the words which the noble lord has just
used, I must repeat the expressions which I mistook him
to have used (a laugh), and I must then contrast them
.with the authorised version, and I will say, it is a case of
-one of the most remarkable misapprehensions of which I
have been guilty; and the only thing that consoles me nn-
-der the mistake is, that of the hundreds of gentlemen pre-
sent, with the exception of those who occupy the Treasury
bench, they must all have fallen into the same error as my-
self. (Loud cries of hear, hear, from the Opposition,
-which were joined in by several members below the gang-
-way on the Ministerial side.) I thought I heard the noble
lord say that one of the great objects of the war, and the
accomplishment of which alone would satisfy the Govern-
ment—as it certainly seemed to satisfy the house, and
from some opinions that have been expressed will also
satisfy the country—l thought it was that that great for-
tress in the Black Sea was to be destroyed, and the Crimea
to be no longer left in the possession of Russia. (Hear,
- hear.) I will afterwards advert to the observation which
I was about to make before I was corrected, in answer to
the noble lord on that point ; but what the noble
lord now says is, that this is a mistake, that I was
dreaming in company with the vast majority of the
House of Commons (laughter), and that instead of
saying that, what he did say was that Russia was no
longer to be permitted to keep so large a naval force in the
Black Sea. Why, sir, I thought the noble lord said, al-
though not in language so express, precise, and definite, as
the fanciful quotation which I made from his speech re-
specting Sebastapol and the Crimea—l though the noble
lord, speaking for an united Cabinet, was also going to free
the mouths of the Danube, and even to take away Bessa-
rabia. from Russia. I thought I heard all this—l thought
also that I heard about the same time, that a speech was
made in another place by the head of the Government, as
• well as the leader of the other house, couched iu a very
different tone, and conveyed in very different expressions.
I know that when the news arrived in this house of what
had there passed, there was a feeling of great distrust, per-
haps of habitual suspicion ; but all found consolation from
what had fallen from the noble lord in our own house, as
the Minister who sits in the House of Commons, and
speaking to the representatives of the people—(cheers)---
and they defied what might have been said in another
place, upheld and encouraged by the noble lord in language
which we all admired at the time, and which, in my opi-
nion, had only one fault, which now it is unnecessary to men-
tion, but which I will mention onlyto show how completely
we must have mistaken all the statements of the noble
lord. I was about to state, in answer to the statement of
the noble lord of the purposes of the united Cabinet, that
though I was not disposed to enter into any discussion now
as to the policy of taking Bessarabia, of depriving Russia
of the protectorate of the principalities, or of such great
feats of arms as the destruction of Sebastopol and the con-
quest of the Crimea, still I did think, with due deference
to the noble lord, that it was not the most prudent speech
that ever was made. (Cheers from the Opposition.) I
did think that, whatever was the intention of the united
Cabinet, if they were of the colossal—if they were of such
a vast and sublime nature as the noble lord apparently, to
my deceived ear, expressed to-night, it would have been
perhaps more prudent if be had not exposed them with
such complete frankness, and in a manner which hardly
becomes us in the position which we now occupy in those
countries. (Hear, hear.) I should feel I was perform.
ing an unworthy task if I were to criticise in an invi-
dious spirit the conduct of our troops and commanders ;
still, when the noble lord did express those brave words,
so much in the Hercules' vein, I did think that,
when our troops were within fifteen miles of Varna, it
sebukl have been wiser if the noble lord had not
- pledged the united Cabinet to those definitive objects. I
say this discussion has become a very important one. I
thought it important, because we had, through the noble '
lord, the most positive statement of the policy of the
Ministry. Let the committee remember how that was
raado. It was not made in the beat of debate ; it was not
-made is reply to taunts and sarcasms, such as we some-
times bear of as an excuse for statements in this house
• which are not warranted in fact ; but the noble lord gave
a most important notice on a most important subject,
namely, the conduct of the war. The noble lord gives a
notice ; he takes ample time; late as is the session, the
house is full, to hear from the lips of the head of the Go-
vernment, in this place, this important statement on this
most important, subject. The noble lord's speech is charac-
terised with a fervour of feeling and a frankness of expres-
sion, according to the general experience of the house, sel-
dom exceeded ; and so far as the tone of that speech could
influence the opinions and convictions of the house, it was
perfectly successful. One after each other, gentlemen have
got up and spoken on that side of the house. Some of
them have disapproved of the members of the Administra-
tion who are not in this house; some of them have disap-
proved of the places which others of them in this house
occupy in the Cabinet ; some have disapproved of the ma-
nagement of the commissariat ; some of them have disap-
proved of there not being flat-bottomed boats in the Baltic
—(a laugh)—but all have agreed that the tone of the noble
lord—the distinct manner in which he detailed to them the
purposes of the Government in the war they were conduct-
ing—was not only satisfactory, but more than satisfactory;
and yet, though we have now discussed this important
question for six hours, we now find the noble lord never
made this important declaration—(cheers from the Oppo-
sition)—we now find that this statement of the definite
policy of the Government is a mere illusion ; and therefore
I have a right to ask the noble lord—what is your policy,
if you have a policy? (Cheers from the same quarter.)
Well, I have had some experience in this house, and see
many gentlemen here who have had more experience than
myself. Very strange scenes have sometimes occurred here,
and very startling speeches have been made; but this I say
in all sincerity, in my Parliamentary experience nothing has
ever occurred so remarkable as this imaginary speech of the
Lord President—(cheers)—which has occasioned a debate of
six hours—whichhas satisfied the House of Commons--which
is to satisfy the country—and which we now find, exactly
at midnight, was never made. (Renewed cheers from the
Opposition.) But is this all ? Why, the noble lord was
careful in informing us that he was speaking for the Cabi-
net, and in the course of the evening he was asked by
astonished members whether he was really speaking for the
Cabinet, for they could hardly trust their ears during the
whole debate. The noble lord not only said he made this
statement on the authority of the Cabinet, but that he had
reason to believe that the French Government entirely
agreed with her Majesty's Ministers in their resolution to
achieve the same purposes and to obtain the same terms.
Is that an imaginary statement too ? The noble lord shakes
his head. I understand, then, that the noble lord did not
make that announcement of the feelings of the French Go-
vernment. (A laugh.) This also is a passage to be oblite-
rated • but it depended on your previous sentence. (A
laugh.) I am sure I have not the least intention to descend
to a cross-examination of the noble lord—that is not an
art which I can pretend to practise ; but the noble lord
must admit that if he did make a communication respect-
ing the French Government, he may probably have been
dreaming when he made that communication, instead of
supposing that I was dreaming when I referred to it. But
there is no end to the mystification in which the house has
found itself in consequence of this speech of the Lord Presi-
dent which was never made. (A laugh.) Here we are at
the end of the session. We had a year and a half of doubt
and perplexity. I will venture to say, never in this coun-
try before has there been such a continuous period of per-
plexity of the public mind as in the policy we were pur-
suing towards Turkey and Russia, and the purposes of this
war. We are now arrived at the end of this session. We
rneit told we were to receive full compensation for all this
-tecnrity—all this want of information—all
an this per-
plexity, hesitation, and uncertainty—and yet it appears to
me there never was a period in which our prospects were
more uncertain and obscure, and our position more vision-
ary and fluctuating than the present.
met at the beginning of this
year,
When the house
aftert h e that pvaairnl fi
au l
autumn, we all recollect when there was
mentary expression to the Government,
renlicelctinogpiwiniot
accuracy and without exaggeration the public
out of doors at that time ; when we dwelt upon the
vacillation, the infirmity of purpose, the impulses of
more suspicious character, which must have bron htaouat
a result so little satisfactory to the people of thisgc
what did the Government do? The Government tooleltje
first opportunity on the first debate, which must have been,
I apprehend, on the Queen's Speech, or at least very early
in the first week of the session, of having their case stated
in this house by one of the gravest and weightiest members
of the Cabinet—the First Lord of the Admiralty (A laugh.)
What did the First Lord of the Admiralty say six, months
ona 9 The First Lord of the Admiralty, with that specious
power-'
which he has, admitted all those accusations and
imputations which were made, or at least the justice of the
grounds which the public had for complaining, and the Pa-
rliament for repretsenattiang. He said there had been delay, and
appeared unsatisfactory; " but,' said
much, no doubt, h
gained a great object—we have gained the
he, " we have(lronical cheers.)
co-operation of the German powers."
That was the statement of thnethrsigwhethhaovne.hgeeenntkleepmtainn
the
months ago. Well, for six months
the co-operation of the German
same doubt respecting
powers. I think myself that those who
faarientwheollpiensfoormf
aendy,
especially of late, have had somewhat
very fortunate issue in that respect. But whatent
orhappenedl
to-night? The noble lord madethatst
imagined, in a hallucination, a
the noblet lord to, have made
the statement which he did not make—(a laeozfbtasisniaw_hnicoh.
nothing occurs about the dismemberment
Russia—no-
thing about a change in the territorralarranegoenmpreatts
ofa
Russia, the destruction of Sebastopol, or the
the Crimea and Bessarabia; and what were the arguments
of hon. members on that side of the house, and especially
of the hon. member for the West Riding ?
Why, the most
remarkable of the arguments of that hon. gentleman was,
that " this is a moat important announcement of the noble
lord, and fills me with the greatest alarm, for the whole
policy of the German powers is based on this position, that
the territorial status quo of Russia must be preserved ; and
now the Government, through the noble lord, have stated
to-night that they have changed their policy, and will not
recognise the independence of Russia; the Government
have told us that certain provinces are to be taken from
Russia, but they have not told us to whom they are to be
given." "But," says the honourable gentleman, " what
hope have we of this co-operation of the German powers."
If the noble lord never made that statement, he must
have thought the honourable gentleman the member
for the West Riding was talking in hie sleep. (A laugh.)
Why did not honourable members call question—why did
they not terminate his discourse—why did they not

pull him by the coat, and say, " Nobody has referred to
that subject?" (Cheers and laughter from the Opposition.)
Then what did the hon. member mean by saying her Ma-
jesty's Ministers intended to take the Crimea from Russia
when not a word had been said on the subject? See the
confusion which this will create on 'Change at Manchester
and Liverpool to-morrow; men will suspend their commer-
cial speculations ; and what would have been the price of
Consols to-morrow if, fortunately, I had not risen and re-
presented the general misconception of the house—
(laughter)—and had given the Lord President the oppor-
tunity of making a statement which, I trust, will be widely
circulated, and from which we now learn, on the highest
authority, that the policy of the Cabinet, with respect to
the Turkish empire, is not of that dangerous nature which
the noble lord, from circumstances, allowed us for a mo-
ment to believe ? But the same policy which has been pur-
sued from the beginning will, I doubt not, be pursued to
the end. (Cheers from the Opposition.) But then Ido think
it of very great importance, after what has occurred, that
we should clearly know from some member of the Cabinet
—and, as we are in committee, I hope from the Lord Presi-
dent—what he really wishes us to believe. In that case I
shall be too happy to take the noble lord's last edition, or
his last version of this great manifesto which he has deli-
vered to-day, without the slightest doubt or reserve. But
a great deal of mischief may have been done in the inte-
rim. We live in an age of electric telegraphs. (A laugh.
There is a telegraph circulating to Warsaw I believe ; I am
not sure that it does not reach to St. Petersburg, and, for
aught I know, the imaginary passage may be crossing to
Europe at this moment. (A laugh.) It is also of import-
ance that the most popular newspaper of the day should
not give circulation to this intelligence. Bat let me just
call the attention of the committee to the extraordinary
position in which Parliament has been placed throughout
this session by the speeches of leading Ministers of the
Crown on our foreign policy, which have been deliveredin
places where the most clear statements ought to be made—
the two houses of Parliament. Why, a noble lord in an-
other place, the leader of the Government, made a state-
ment—l did not hear in that case that it was an imaginary
statement—that excited the indignation of the assembly
to which it was addressed, and of the whole nation, the
whole people of England. (Hear, hear.) It was very con-
trary to the statement which we imagined we had heard
to-night, which excited the admiration of the house, and
which to-morrow we supposed would meet with the ap-
probation of the people of England. But allow me to
remind the house that the noble lord, in another place
—though he did not pretend for a moment that
what he said was imaginary, that what his hearers
supposed he said was any hallucination on their part,
though the noble lord was guilty, if it were guilt, of mak-
ing that first speech which so agitated and alarmed the
people of this country—still I cannot for the life of me
understand how that noble lord erred more than the noble
lord here (Lord J. Russell), who has the art of making
speeches which convey to the House of Commons, on this
important subject, results exactly contrary to those which
he intends ; because, so far as I can now understand the
policy of the noble lord, there is no difference between the
policy which the noble lord now professes and the policy
which was professed in that first speech made in another
place by Lord Aberdeen, and which he was obliged, as it
were, to recall and recant. (Hear, hear.) What does the
noble lord Say ? The noble lord says that peace is not to
he for a moment consented to unless the protectorate of
Russia over the Principalities is abolished—no very diffi-
cult task, I should think, under present circumstances,
and not requiring a grand alliance ; that Russia under a
treaty—of course under a treaty—should not possess in
the Black Sea more than a certain number of ships of war
at all times—about the most difficult treaty of all kinds to
put in practice. But of course it is quite premature to dis-
sent on the merits of such a capitulation. The noble lord
cannot, I think, pretend that there is any great difference—
and I do not think that hon. gentlemen in this house who
make such painful distinctions between the position and
policy of Lord Aberdeen and the position and policy of
some of his colleagues are acting with frankness and fair-
ness to Lord Aberdeen if they persist in them. I do not
pretend to be a supporter or admirer of Lord Aberdeen—
(a laugh)—but I cannot say that I at any time admire the
parliamentary policy that would make a distinction be-
tween the responsibility of an individual member of a
Cabinet apart from that of his colleagues under any cir-
cumstances. But Igo further in the present case. I say
that the policy which Lord Aberdeen has recommended,
or has announced and follows, does not appear to me, after
the noble lord has informed us that the statement which
I imputed to him has no foundation whatever, but is
purely imaginary—l say it does not appear to me that the
policy of Lord Aberdeen, substantially, upon this all-im-
portant subject, varies from that of the noble lord oppo-
site. Well, sir, that is some satisfaction to the people of
England. We have not a divided Cabinet. (Hear, hear.)
We hear at last, as the session closes, that theyareinunison
upon oue subject ; and, so far as the conduct of the war with
small purposes, and so far as having for the great.object of
their policy a mean and insignificant end goes, her Ma-
jesty's Ministers, though they are a coalition Ministry, ap-
pear to be unanimous. (Cheers.)
Lord PALMERSTON—I certainly hope, Mr. Bouverie,
that that event which the right hon. gentleman who has
just sat down has announced as probably taking place at
the present moment, may in fact be realised, viz.—that
hat has been passing in the debate this evening is already
flying upon the wings of lightning to the capital of Russia
—(hear, hear)—for I think it will be news which will
place the power with which we are contending in that
same embarrassment and difficulty between admiration and
consternation in which the right hon. gentleman has stated
himself to have been thrown by the speech of my noble
friend. I think when the people of Russia find, that upon
an occasion on which the British Government has been
making a solemn appeal to the Parliament of England for
confidence and support—during the period, whatever it
may be, when by the ordinary course of events it is
divested of the daily countenance and support of Parlia-
ment, and when they find that that appeal has been met
only by criticisms upon what some hon. members conceive
to be a want of energy here or there, or an insufficiency of
vigour in conducting the war—when they see the unani-
mity with which the great objects which this country has
engaged to accomplish have been approved by the Parlia-
ment of England—l think that they will be struck with
admiration at the generous and manly feeling of the coun-
try, and will see with consternation the absence of any
material difference of opinion as to the main points of the

struggle in which the nation has engaged. (Cheers.) The
right hon. gentleman has asked us what is our policy. I
might, I think, postpone answering that question until
he shall have made up his mind as to whether the an-
nouncement my noble friend has made excites his admira-

tien or overwhelmed him with consternation. (Hear.)
Perhaps it maydo both, becausewithout imputingto leaders
of opposition any other feeling than that which naturally
beeemes their position, any statement from a Ministry that
excites their admiration must also necessarily in some de-
gree produce a feeling of consternation. (Laughter and
cheers.) Well, sir, the right hon. gentleman upon this
subject, on which perhaps, if there did exist any material
difference of opinion, the organ of the party out of power
might have taken sonde large and comprehensive views of
the policy of the country—have stated views differing from
those of the Government, had have confirmed those views
by great argument taken from international policy and
European interest—the right hon. gentleman has given us
a very amusing speech, playing upon words, endeavouring
to pick holes in an argument ; and I am sure my noble
friend must have shared the satisfaction which all on this
bench have felt when we found that, instead of meeting us
with any hostile expression, which indeed would have
been most painful for as to have heard—the right hon.
gentleman argued the question in a very agreeable and
friendly manner, and merely turned his observations to
produce some cheers and laughter from that side of the
house, founded upon distinctions which—as I have already
said, had no real foundation in what fell from my noble
friend. (Cheers.) My noble friend could speak as the
organ of the Government. The opinions which my noble
friend expressed as to the objects and arrangements which
could alone be considered as affording a sufficient security
to Europe to be accomplished by the war—were opinions
which are shared by his colleagues. It would ill become
anybody to argue in this house, to lay down beforehand
what should be the especialresult of operations which depend
upon the chances of war. My noble friend pretended to do
no such thing. (Hear.) My noble friend pointed out that
the object for which we had engaged in this contest was
the independence and integrity of the Taikish empire, and
security for Europe against the recurrence of those , events
which have led to the present unfortunate state of things.
That security must be accomplished by.the united arms of
England and France; I care not who else joins us, or who
may stand aloof. (Cheers.) These two great countries
united in cordial alliance for the accomplishment of any
ohject —the two greatest military and naval powers of the
world—are surely able, by their own energetic action, to
accomplish such a peace as shall satisfy the conditions upon
which we think the security of Europe shall be based.
(Cheers.) Sir, gentlemen have found fault with dif-
ferent parts of the arrangements that have hitherto
been made. Why, it is very natural that a country which
has for a long period of time been enjoying uninterruptedly
the advantages and blessings of peace—it is very natural
that it should not be able to estimate all the difficulties
which are incident to the commencement of a great war,
(hear, hear)—a war to be carried on in a remote part of
the world, whether a large military force has to be con-
veyed by sea with all the equipments which are necessary
for the carrying on of its operations. Why, sir, instead
of thinking that any improper delay has occurred, I think
that any man who knows anything of military opera-
tions will agree that, considering the short periOd of time
which has elapsed since the forces of England and France
left their respective shores, considering the difficulty of
transporting over such an extent of sea so large a military
force, with all the horses, baggage, gars, and equipments
which are necessary to enable it to carry on its operations
-- I think that astonishment would rather be at the ra-
pidity with which these operations have been conducted,
and at the degree of completeness which they have already
attained, rather than any feeling that any undue delay,
or any want of proper exertion, had occurred. It will be
found that there are at the present time in Turkey two
armies, of English and French, as complete, I believe, and
as fitted to accomplish whatever operations they may have
to perform, as any troops that ever took the field. The
commanders by sea and by land are men in whom the
two nations ma—srplace their confidence, and without—al-
though we are told that this is a council of war—without
accepting the lead thus held out to discuss the plan of the
campaign, and to deliberate upon th operations of the
war, I think that if the P t of this count have
brought themselves so f
Ma-
jesty's Government to to place
a lamen
confidence in herrY Ma-
continue to them the conduct of
the war, and to entrust them with the ample means which
have been placed at the i
them that which is now asked disposal, and moreover to give
asked to meet incidental and nn-
foreseen emergencies,
to believe that there they are bound, at least,
will be carrying on of operations that there will be no want of
judgment in selecting the
objectlt tki) which their operations
shall be directed. (Cheers.) It present occasion, there exists in satisfactorythis that, upon
main and great points at issue, tilet house, upon the
opinion which I believe to exist in the same agreement of
can assure the house that my noble friend in
at large. I
the organ of the Government, has not overrated speakin as
the dter-
, mins.tion of her Majesty's MLiaters to prove themselvesl worthy of the confidence which the nation and Parliament
has placed in them ; and that we do trust that when
Parliament meets again, be it sooner or be it ten
it will have no reason to think that that confidence has
been misapplied, or that the means placed at the disposal
of the Government have not been employed for the purrose
for which they were intended and voted. With regard to
the meeting of Parliament, I am sure that none of those
who have heard the manner in which my noble friend has
expressed himself in regard to the feeling of thankfulness
which animate her Majesty's Government for the gene.
• rous support which we have received from Parliament in
the coarse of these operations can imagine that if at any
period du .
rine* the recess circumstances should arise which
would render it desirable that we should have the support,
assistance, and advice of Parliament, there could be any
hesitation on the part of the Government to resort at
once to this house and to Parliament for that purpose.
Every man knows that prorogations are only from time to
time, and that, therefore, there i 4 nothing to prevent he

Majesty's Government, if occasion should arise, from resort-
ing within the shortest possible time to the assistance and
the advice of Parliament. There can be no need, therefore,
for anyresolution of this house, either to direct the attention
of the Government to that subject, or to enable them to
call Parliament together if they should think it expedient
to do so. Sir, I should only hope that in whatever may
remain of this discussion that this house will recollect
that we are discussing this subject in the face of all Eu-
rope, that not only the character of the country, but in a
great degree the moral position and influence of the coun-
try depends upon the tone which is taken in this house
upon matters of such great national importance ; and
although undoubtedly nothing has been said in this de-
bate to tend in any degree to lower the moral and po-
litical influence of England in Europe in regard to these
questions, I should hope that the final result will be that
Europe, our allies, and those who are our foes, our friends
and our enemies, those who are with us, and those who
are against us, and those who are wavering, the two shall
see by the vote of this house that there is a settled deter-
mination on the part of Parliament and of the country
that this war in which we have been reluctantly engaged,
which has originated not from a coalition Government,
but from the reckless ambition of one man, whose mind has
peen carried awayby a course of successes which has led him
to overrate the power of the country which ho governs. It
is, I say, a war in which we are reluctantly engaged, but into
which we have entered for objects of the greatest import-
ance not only to Europe, but to the civilised world—a war
which can only be concluded except upon such terms as
may justify the conduct of those who engaged in it, and
may afford to Europe and to the world a fair prospect that
for a long time to come we shall not be placed in a situa-
tion in which we may be compelled to make exertions of a
similar nature for a similar purpose. (Cheers.)
Lord D. STUART said that as the noble lord (Lord J.
Russell) had made what might be considered a retractation
of one portion of his speech, and as it appeared that a
speech of a different character from that of the noble lord
had been made in another place by thehead of the Govern-
ment that evening, he thought that the house ought not to
pass that vote until they should have obtained further in-
formation with respect to the intentions of her Majesty's
Ministers, and until they should have been enabled fur-
ther to consider what course they ought to adopt upon
that subject. (Hear, hear.) He therefore, felt it his duty
to move that the chairman should report progress, and ask
leave to sit again.
Lord J. RUSSELL--Unless some motion is made for
a rejection or a reduction of the vote, I cannot see on what
ground we can be asked to adjourn this debate. (Hear,
hear.) The noble lord says that I made a retractation of
the speech I delivered in the early part of the evening.
But I deny that I made any retractation whatever.
(Hear.) I was stating in the speech what might be the
terms of peace. I stated at the commencement of the ses-
sion, and I repeated to-night, that it was very unadvisable
we should discuss the operations of the war, or speculate on
what might be the result of those operations. I was not,
therefore, speaking in any way as to the operations of the
war. The hon. gentleman the member for the West Rid-
ing of Yorkshire said that we were holding a council of
war, and that I proposed the capture of Sebastopol and
the conquest of the Crimea, which was to be given to some
new power. I must say that I never stated anything of
the kind. If the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) had
not risen, it was my intention at the close of the debate, in
answering different observations made in the course of
the evening, to have noticed that statement of the hon.
gentleman the member for the West Riding. I have no
doubt that he mistook what I said. But certainly the dif-
ference was very great between a statement with regard to
the terms of peace, which, if negotiations were entered
into, might be as things at present stand, and a specula.
tion as to the operations of the war, into which I never
entered. What I said was, that I did not think Russia
could be allowed to keep a position at Sebastopol which
was menacing to the independence of Turkey ; but the
manner in which she was to be deprived of that position I
left unexplained, as I thought it was my duty to do. I
only said that there is at Sebastopol a naval force which
perpetually threatens the existence of the Turkish em-
pire. I cannot see why the discussion should now be ad-
journed. (dear, hear.)
Mr. HENLEY concurred in the view that Lord J. Rus-
sell had accidentally led the house into a material mistake.
Mr. LATARD and Mr. GROGAN suppOrted the motion of
Lord D. Stuart.

Sir J. SHELLEY brought his testimony to the impres•
sion that Lord J. Russell had declared that the destruction
of Sebastopol must precede peace.
Mr. BOOKER had heard both Lord Aberdeen's speech
and Lord J. Russell's that night, and nothing could be
more contradictory than the two.
Mr. HORSMAN thought it important that the vote
should be granted, and any further discussion should be
taken on the report.

Lord J. RUSSELL assented to this course, provided
the report could be taken this day.

Mr. PETO, in withdrawing a motion to make way for
the proposed discussion, bore different witness to the
words of Lord J. Russell than that which had been given
by other members.

-Sir H. WILLOUGHBY had received the same impres-
sion as Mr. Disraeli.

Sir T. DYKE ACLAND strongly recommended unani-
mity on such an occasion.

Lord D. STUART withdrew his motion on the under•
standing that he received distinct assurance that further
discussion should take place on the report. He should cer-
tainly make his motion for an address against prorogation
until further information was before the house.
Lord J. RUSSELL, in again assenting to the proposed
course, Expressed his extreme regret that he should have
fallen into any ambiguity of expression.
The motion for adjournment was then withdrawn; the
vote of credit agreed to, and the house resumed.
NUISANCES REMOVAL AND DISEASES PRE-

VENTION BILL.
Lord PALMERSTON moved the second reading of this
bill, with a view to its recommittal, for the purpose of in-
troducing certain amendments.

Lord gEYNIOUR opposed the bill, and moved that it be
read a second time that day three months.
After expressions of disapproval of the bill from several
hon. members, the amendment was agreed to.
An HON. MEmßEßifor Mr. aeach) moved to nominate
the select committee on printing (Houses of Parliament,
&c.) :—Mr. Geach, Mr. Hadfield, Mr. Leicester Vernon,
Mr. Hamilton, Mr. Digby Seymour, Mr. Cranfurd, Mr.
Greene, Lord Seymour, Mr. Vernon Smith, Mr. Gregson,
Mr. Wilkinson, Mr. Crossley, Mr. Wilson, Mr. namely,
and Mr. Walter.—Agreed to.
The house then adjourned at half-past one.