The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-06 00:00:00

TITS ADMIRALTY.

Iri'rtPly to lVfx:.' DigniiLi, • '
• Lord 3'. RUSSELL it was desirable that -the
motion ,of the „hon. member for-IVlarylebono should be
disposed of as
-early as possible, but .he could not name
an earlier day than Thursday se'xinight.
=Sir B. HALL Said he world fix his motion for that'
day.:

ORDER,S OF 'TIM BOARD' OF ADMIRALTY.
In reNy to Mr. Tunrgu,,,, •
Sir J. ,c 4-41,141,1 said, arrangements had, been;noj4
by Order in -Cinineil- to provide for promotlOis in her

NORWICH 'ELECTION. •

. - ' MULL,___ UtL ELECTION,; —N. .
.. - . •
' Bir:' LABOUCHME then 'rose to mote Aan:ftd-s:
dress- td- her • IvlajestY,- for a • -conimission ' ' inquiry
;nto „.the-4 borqugh.i of - Hull: . . The -ho e would
remember that
~,the . member retiumed: for Hull
had been unseated
son: the ground of bribery and
treating, 'arid since it came out in evidence that the gor-
ruption complained id'had Ithigiarevail.ed in the ttomeg.ll,:
,the;committee,felt-that there was no alternat,ve,but to
recommend the house to adopt .a inotian like this.
It Was. painful to Liim to. have to -make -'such'a
motion 'as this ..in ' i.eferexide to so - important a
place, -as. ~Hu11,.. -one of the greatest • ship irie pOiCS"
of the.country ; but.neither the extent of its il ought,
nor the position which, it held in public esti a e t,
to shield-it from a proceeding, of this nature, i he merits
of the `ease galled for it ,It appeared, then, tat it had
been ,is practice for ,some years past to pay the -free-
men of, Hull• for. their votes , at. .the rate of
30s. , a-head. Several . of the poor voters ere.- also
bribed in 'smaller sums, and one of the witne es exam-
ined before 'the committee 'stated that these tter oiere
.far more...troublesome to the candidate than th 'freeihen,
because
,they,,,did not know. their price.. (A. 1. ugh.) ' lii
addition
,to this,
.several voters, were bribed :with very
large SUMS; While it wasclear that at most of th Contested
elections aSYstem of -extensive treating always ook place.,
He therefore thought it was highly desiro that the
whole cas,e,sheuld be inquired into by &cam iSsion on
'flie spot, and.hence he ,had no hesitation in oving .the
reslutioirOf Which he-had giYen notics. i

•Mr. WALPOLE said lie':observed by the report of
the colpinittse that the briberrappeared tb- leave been
both extensive and systematic, and he could,, therefcre,,
offer' no opposition to the address, but he thought they
ought to: postpone 'the nomination- of -the comluissibil
until n tivture eday t. •
Mr.,JABQUCJIER.E did:not think there was any
necessity for.- delay, •
After a few"words frbTNir. pArTK.Es, ..the niotion was
agreed to:

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he had given notice of his
int,cntion_to call- the .atteation of the.house to 'the report
of the select ..committee appointed to. inquire ' into the
''WithdraWai of'-the Norwich election . petitions, and
td--iiloVe that 'so much of ' the •sessional - Order of.
the 11th day' of -Ncivember :last, as requires that
• all;persens whpwill question the return of any mern-•
, .
ber, do qUestion the same within fourteen days
'thennett,'' be read ; ' and that the said eider, so far
as the same relates to *e laat return of Members to
serve in,i,Parliardent ,fort the city - of- Norwich, banns-,
7pende4, • (i,trappearingi to this; house that the' two --'petii
tions of Sohn_ Phillips, • Jeliil Abel,. Henry Hindes,
Peter; TAbrilas Scott, and William-Maekley, electors of
-the Oak' clef; presented on the 22d car ofNeVemberlast,
complamittg-of an-undue election and-rEftu&of members
to serve in this present, Parliament for tlte.silaid city of
Norwich, were on the 14th daY ,of ,February last, with
,ont'att autlfoiity,l abandoned or-withdrawn, whereupon
the ortlet -referring the'sgine tnthe•gerierarOernmittee of
elections was discharged,, he begged leave •t 4 postpone
the motion ,until this. day week, when the% ntemberi 'of
the het*. would be more conversant with,, the evidence
bearing upOn the subject: ' •• •
' • - ' ' , - AtA/LWAY 'ACCIDENTS.' '
.• Mr. H. BROWN said lie hiid• to propose a Iresolution,,
at the suggestion' of• a large 'number of persons who had
asked him to be their instrument; in'calling thb attention
of the -house to a :subject of .which he admitted the
difficulty. He hall Some reason to expect thatthis Motion
would be met with two ,exceptions—ret ,that it- was
_,
idle ; andit'secondly, that it was nnnecessary. i He. would
'I
was
..
be told that a seleet committee aS at that' reentent filt;,'
tingfnp, stairs who would make such a 'rePorit as would
satisfy the holm on the subject,: If het thought the
carrying of the motion welild be -offensive to he railway
interest or ernberraisink to the GOvernment, h should be
the last ,parson'to seek to bring it forward. ' :ut ha sub-
pitted his-niotien was .of such a character that, f ti _com-
!mittee-silo/Ala make a rapport that it. was necwis ry.to.-44 e '
a, ttititinal toluitst-on the'Vegulation of inilvo'd, • ~„•it,i,,,,,L.
only tom). iv-etre!!!gtheo thee hands- of .ho 121. var naexat.OThe'
right hotto-grable gentleman, the.4;esidont (VP-t/ e Board of
Trade, lucd-aelia him the honour to say tjaa there was
nothing ..in 'the terms 'of -.his:resolution in' thB -ts ghtest il e-
. give ohiectienable: lf that were -' so, he won,. ask the.
right-bouou-rible gentleman to adopt the res. t\tkien.,„ If.
there was anything more marked than ' 'anti r, geinie i
, in the eonunittee-. up' staffs, it was that thq were all
agreed j the necosity. of what -he ~ (Mr. B own) now
asked the house to do. 'The house would re, oiled that
when the. date President e the 'Board • of T i.i de moved
for that esqusinittee, lie had only, in view an i . quiv•inta
' the general 'amalganiation of railways, andi;t sat another
-lien. inionalseefolloWed. 4. tie ]Motion -of' the right hon.
,gentleman by, a preposition; for tiXtending 4 ...Lscope of
inquity:,:9l: the , pommittee. , liut . what. was i ''resnit ? •
The,' cOM niitite was no* sitting, and the evi. en 90 given
before-them was kid a 'repetition of ' state . ens with
'whichj,the home-was already-familiar. :- •ild ' ould refer
.the house to the evidence of a, great:autherity in matters
colmeatedt-witli Ifairviayis, l'll.. Beyiiintir Cl k. That
gentleman stated .that; in -his opinion, 'the re ult. of •the
„proposed amalgamations and arrangeinents wo il be that,
without _Verne superintending authority, the p hlle would
be devolved at those advaaitages which they no possessed.
.Capt.Huish, the superintendent of the London nd North-
'Western Railway,ln reply:to a question, put to ins, to the
effect•of whether all just complaints made by the public
1
against the coniPanieemight not become a subject of arbi-
tration, said that it world require- careful consideration,
and the assistance of men who were converse t with the
details
.of the-working of rail Ways, who would give judg-
ments which would beaeeeptable to the companies. Each
of the live witnesses already examined had stated, in the
most marked manner, that the superviiion of the railways,
to be effective, must be placed in some central power.
He would be the last person to advocate any interference
in the fiscal-- arrangements ' connected with railways, • but
he co tended that,. until the made Some better arrange-
mentki until they had some Authority to• whie the public
`could appeal, or some power to enforce such re /aims as
might -be deemed neet."` - for ' the public s tfety, they
iil
'would have_ the columns of their 'daily papers constantly
filled with accounts of fatal accidents on rail Ways. The
cemparatively'sreall;ninnber of accidents which Decurred on
the Scotch railways was attributed by some p.rsons to the
low rate of. velo,citiy ; he Considered, howeVer, ,;hat it was
owing far More to the wholesome state of klieotiminal law
in that country.' [At this part-of the. hon. member's re-..
marks -Mr. Labouchere appeared at the bar, and stated that
the 'Tense 'of „Igds rqquefitects conference .:on the subjecti
of-the commis on Of inquiry into the .borough of till.
Several hon. meniters named by the'Speaker proceeded to
the Lords, and after short. absence-returned' and reported
tsuhbeipeeeta7t as well
l' the result of the conferpnce.] Thelon: member then pro-
ceeded to' state-that Under thegeetch law there was a pub-
:lie prosecutor,: by whose exertions juStice was ' secured to
-loth Viotoria (Lord Camp-
gt,ithll4,,ailecttion, was 'given 'for damages,
were very in frEi eat asfr.cit-it tlllihat3iPoirt.he.TEnhigslis'stir Lae waotnlitnhigss
tilitichAuenft)oltitlidbriungttattthe3l!, howev.q.,./PractiAally valued the use-
. ful man et-Peilet and the 'ornamental at. thousands. He
remembered that Whenthis • bill' Was' uunder"; discussitekka,
noble lord,in the . other .house Asked -whether, supposing
the Lord Chancellor on the woolsack was killed, any jury
would 'dare to estimate hiS-vidne. . The rejoinder of the
intialiaugilohtwi.lyi.:AfitiiNiwii4ire-e-cxeu6f,nes!:pa4l,' i:oenug7eatefp.L.o:o9.lrriaseraamwa.ttraognehre.ctluheeieotvtia:todho,bels3yla.
:Lord.Chandellee_was, .that lie•eould'eonceive a much more
difficult case, which was that Of: estireatingfaie damages of
Midland
woolsack.
.horseeo m( 4-
.
its
lir:Lath of his' wife, while a lady travel-
lingking tlasabS W,ho' might suffer
Psi'*anss
inaitu ni
°t, the enftl4° r'tbwane carriage -
wo obtained isnheodu
15a/ .
t- 1
take
•ec op:: n
os at: t itobne
iforu. ,
What- was_ wanted, therefore,.
damage clone to her dr.
wasefatetii lae :flat' figotpisliclilwfi bdthltnejihih:t. i )1:P01r:cols u
r6r.,. rte iu:
ti jet
(14: ; „y :ow ri
I.'
tni
o.
railways
y ,T
and he r i
.1
aa
orr gothes
ert.
hfr ,eiinefficiencydisregard proportionofa. .
doe
ff-
the staff of servants, •21. f -this-, ease could beL 'made out, it
was clearyl . the duty of.thiaheuse, to become the censer-
' thought it right to introduce 'rneasiires prffiding_ for ..
'..,avfivatsedioat.iing-
ame
boe.tritemerepint totdiloei'
of:reolii p-wilybliaco:accarfer.ittys.,
an;ocirn_iatier__Olo7yernm, ents had
ldfl.3).S'ifiot
ought,i4 '
i.c°„"..id nOttlt
contended_that while r .
• anything to secure . _ . -,... the public travelking,UPQn
t,48R.1.- (Hear.l.e.LYVllP:,' bVOT-a'rai/Way viraiiite be chypened,
tbi). Board of Tr".„4o*ays sent_down a surieyor ice- i'eport '
upon the mate of th4railway. and the works previous to
arfarigementstohfersaaitty,s; it
.‘ s, /2.-u'-'lT-
the public Opening of the line. It was a requirement for,
the I)lll2lle:safety that. no line-should be opened, till n," satin=
''factory report of, its eoudi,tipn was made by-the iiiipeettii'
-',As noon,-1107ever, as-this report was made, thelintherity
of the,l3oard of, Trade 'ceased; and hoWeVer Much. the lily,
might hereafter become--klisorderedi, ,aral,*luitiafer 'acci-
" dents ntialt occur,
evi the Board of Trade was powerless, and
• could' billy'Send dctaan inspector to report npon.the cause
:of theacchien.t.. ,:Upon looking aveemany' (f the reports
made to the commissioners, by.thn inspectors, he oeuld-not
fail to lie stiiick-with the necessity which ,pAisted for,-yes%
ing in theßoard of Trade, of some other central body,,the
,power of enforcing- regulations calculated ' to prevent the
occurrence of accidents. Captain Si.riainena in his mepert
:upon the-131sfer Itail#ray; stated that there were no,signall
pperi_a_pertionrof thllineland that- the'company never
used any, .aald he rec i it niended,thattiMeeenpany should be
-requested-•—not ."io ii . •Iled'".to adept,prolgq signals,/ and!
ahauelonktrinethed ofiierkiik,Ateir -Mae which was evi-
dently attended with se much danger, In another of that

gentlenian'S' tePoits; reference was also made to the tule
tilion one Of therailways of coal-trucks of an imprOper'and'
dangerinif character, but the 'Board- Of Trade 'had- no
power to ebbiiiel 'We °nip of. a. better deScriPtion of tilaffiC
w'aggeS aladtknaks. 71pori thetoilden: aUd North-Wesi6rn
Rail Way the-great Majority Of 'the accidents* had arisen
froni"the heavy goods trains, and it was most important
that, someimpervision. should be exercised over the
that respect._ In, the case of. an accident ,on the Midland
repel-tad- that it had occurred in
consequence of the thigineer not sounding his Whistid:,-
had'beeit Out, of ordet for three days.'; This hccillent
}v'asheefore owing to the laxity of "saperiision and Want'
of 'Strict .enforcenient Of the rules Of the
,CPnipany, 'and
showed the,:n,ecessity,„for .a.-great change in this respect.
From the,reperts , Of ;the commissioners it .appeared that
twenty-fliree,out
.of TertY-One caries :of;adcidents had: arisen
. from inattenidonto the regulations and the carelesSness of •
Kgvants of the Company.. Accidents.
,of this nature were
divided into two classes—occasional, inducting those
caused'hY inexperience ; andliabitual, or those occasioned
by general inattention on the ,part of the servants of 'ehe
company, and, as a natural consequence, exhibiting a great
laxity of discipline. In a report upon the Eastern Colin-
flea Railway, ltt Was stated-that a dangerous practice pre=
Vailed of:sending off. swift special trains, at a. moment's
notice,. depending for, their safety upon the:
.elOctric tele-
.graph;Which at many of the.stations was not at 'wbrk,
and it was even stated that at one of the'principal stations
the station-master had negleCted his duty to, the: maid-'
servant. - Captain Wynn, reportingOn the Midland
-Railway, stated, that three accidents. had occurred in 'the
course of a* inenth-from the want of proper* SuPdfisiCii
rover the servants of tbe,-,cOlupany, Captain . Kuigh`had
spoken in his .report., of the dariger of using carriages 'of
.;diffgreut sizes and build, and the " buffers" of which Aid'
coincide,not in-the train.allUreoommended
that the fooipeards.of
,the carriages of train should be
extended, in order 'to afford:the. means of communication
with all the Rrriages of ;4, suah a Plan; hoWever,
could'tiot- be carried Out, ' -Unless, all thcj companieS con=
netted with the "clearing liorise" agreed 'to it. Thge
'werethiistances in whichthe .Itos,rd. of Trade might exer-
cise a very salutary power in compelling nniformitY,-&nd
thus increasing: the safetYcif 'the:travelling community.,
"As'the'caso Stood at preSefft; the report of the inspectors
Merely had the effect of removing the responsibility froth
'the' ihttlild6fFl the ongilieettreottnected With. the line,
without placing it upon (Abel- partips. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. inembeirthen referred to- the report Of Captain Wynne
`-dtra fire irbich'hild -occurited'in one of' thb trains on the
London and North-Western Railway, upon which occa-.
• sion had it not been for the exertions of Mr. Crampton,
Wlio at great personil risk had 'paSsed from one ' carriage
to another, the reitilti-mightlave been most disdesSing
in their character. -Had the footboards of the carriages
been extended in the mode Suggested there would: have
no aifficUltY or 'risk in making the required caniiti-
nicatiOn with the .gittird'of the train; Captain 'Finish, in
'answerto ' the recomniendidiati in this . report; that the
footboards should 'bu extended; stated with -reo.ard to' he.
London* and. North-Western Company, thatthey. were
willing to .consider it ; but he added that Such a plan
could not obserVed unless it was generally -adopted, as the
carriages in-nearly always the:property of different tom-..
panies: `This was a case 'in which -he (Mr. Brown) can-
calved that interference might
_readily be made effective.
He need. hardly remind the house that two lamentable
ac-
cidents had occurred within the last few weeks, which
shoWed the inutility of the present system of Governinent
inspection. In the first case there was a most, distres
sing loss *of life;' and he thought the verdict of the
ci)fonpr',s jury would read her ',Majesty's Government a
lesson -*hi& ought to ''show.them that if their inspee-
tipp ~yra,s, .to be geed„. for anything it ought to be ,
effective arilie safety of the travelling public., Tlli~
accident occurred:"OlVtlie: linds _between -Manchester' and
Bolton, and this was the verdict of the jury :--" We find
that,the deceased,, Thomas Crosten,,Richard Simmons,. and
George Barbour, were killed, on the 4th day of• March
inst.,' by the engine No: 13 running off the rails, and up-
setting; 'nearthe Dixonfold Station, on the Manchester. and.
,Bolton Railway, caused by the excessive speed at which it
was driven by the deceased Thomas Creston; against whom
we return a verdict of rnanslarighter. And we state that,.
'althofighthrtiles Of the 'Company furnished to the guards
and drivers limit the speed of expresS trains- n thirty miles ,
an hour, the train has usually far exceeded that speed; and
we think this cannot have so constantly occurred witheat
the-knowledge and approbation of the directors of the com-
pany. And also that the engine No. 13, from having
,only four‘wheels,and the length of time it, has been in use,
net
.o.lproper engine t9,4ttaeh to a train running at.
thirty milecan hour, even on..a railway in good and effi-
cient order. That the permanent way of this railway, as
regards sleeperS, • chairs, and rails, in • material and con-
struction, is generally very defective, and by no means
safe ;, that, the speed .at which the points at the branch
lines. are paSsed is highly dangerous ; that the quick suc-
cession of trains on 'the line from Mancheiter to Clifton,
Junction with the East Lancashire Company is also very,
„dangerous ; that the general arrangements of the company.
:as to the maintenance-of way and management of trains'
do not conduce to the safety 'of the public ; and we cannot
too strongly condemn the management of the Lancashire
and Yorkshire Railway Company on that portion of. their
line known as the Bolton and Preston district. We are
Also pf opinion that the speed at which express trains travel
on all railways is 'so great that a stringent investigation
should be' instituted by the Board of Trade as to the con-
struction and present condition of the permanent way,- en-
gines, and carriages, as well,as working arrangements ; and
we fearitwill be found that the Lancashire and Yorkshire
Railway k-nofthe only one on which such a system of.
economy prevails as seriously to endanger the safety of the
public." 'ln the other case the-jury returned the following
verdict :7-" The 'verdict of. the Juryiis, that. William Ste-
phenson came to his death by the engine No.' 104, running
off the line of rails and falling over the embankment at the
west-end of viaduct, on, the Newcastle andi
Tynensouth-Railway,- on -the -2d of March, 1853. They
also ;find,, fromthe evidence brought, before them, that the
line,was not in a good and safe state, and that gross'neg-
Agence in the management has boon manifested in allowing
ballast taken from the north line of Willington-bridge;
I vrhileundergrepair,.to be laid upon the south lino, 50'21.9 to
-rerfeler dangerous, They, are of opinion that a strange-
engino ought not to have been sent don' the line without
some caution given as; to the repairs going on at wining-
ton-bridge. They are also of opinion' that some legislative
;measure Should be passed, making' it Compulsory on rail-
way; companies not to remove a Single vestige of destruction
of, the line, garriages,,Ac.-,,but that everytAllg remaininJ
tact until inspected by competent .persons.':; Ho
put it to the henhe whether •thase were not lamentable
cases, and whether the circumstances did not fully justify •
the findings of the juries. But what was the use of; the
:present .system of inspection, if, as was. 'here shown, the
poor people who had lost their lives perished from a want
of care and an absence of due arrangement ? (Hear, hear:
•Was it right:that the- Government should see these -things
Occur day after day and' not interpose? Was, it right
they should thus see the safety of the public disregarded;
and not propose measures calculated to procure seen- •
rite • -and. create ""confidence ? Certainly not. :Thely
seemed to suppose that these accidents were ' wearing •
themselves -out ; but the public were fully roused to the •
necesSity'efsdnie active interposition, and they would not •
be satisfied: until it.was provided: Now, what was it that '
he asked the. Government: to•*do ,Why, nothing more
than that they. should provide for the 'public travelling,
along railways the same safeguards as they required in
steamboats, emigrant ships, and factories. (Hear.) Pass-
ing from thiiiremediate subject, he must say that the pro-
ceedings of some railway companies certainly required the
exercise Of_ some control: The South-Eastern Company
had provided carriages of such a description that they were
actually obliged to bar up the windows in order to prevent
the' passengers from putting out their heads lest they should
come into , collision with the Walls of the bridges. They
were under the necessity of providing this precaution in
order to guard against accidents from the use of those car
rialtos and the narrowness of the bridges ; for it happened
that a, passenger,-who had put his head out of the window,
was killed upon the spot. In. such a case as that, Why, be
asked, was not the ScotCh law made to apply,- by which:the'
directors 'would be. criminally responsible ? If the Scotch
:law had applied there would have been far more care taken
to secure the safety of the public. He held, further, that
there ought to be a 'tribunal to which the public might
forthwith appeal-,,where the.aecommodation was not suit-
able, where the traffic arrangements were incomplete, and
where hostilities existed between rival companies-detri-
mental to the public service.' At present we had nothing'
of the spirt. In bringing this, subject under the notice of
:the house,- he-had no.,party or 'private piirposes to serve.
He was moved solely by a desire to discharge his public
duties. (Hear.), If, he would add, the circumstance's 'he
had detailed- painted out the fact that there was a great
disregard f2r.the public safety,on the part of the railway
conipanies themselves, then the house, in his judgment,
was bound to affirm the resolution he should move; ; but if
they thought-these things were incidental to railway •tra-
yelling, inid,beyothi all,ieritedY, then the resolution would
fall to the ground. ~ Ilut he was sure the house would' ar-.
rive fat the iunclusion.that, they were not. beyond remedy,
anti that the railways 'of this country must be put 'under'
such a systeiii of 'inspection as would provide for the public-
sakity.Tlielseredeobainitteetew sitting, he feared, would
,lead.,to•nopraptical•restilt, and, therefore he hoped thehiduse
would give the Board of Trade effectual powers. as' he
expedted,reothing `Shblild result from the committee, and
no proposition should be made on the part of her Majesty's
Government, at a future time, think it'his duty
Soni'd effectual feniedy for the evils he'had.-On-
deavoured to
,point out. 14, the meantime he begged •to
move—" That'it is the duty of a goOdGovemment to pro-
pose to thielinuse all each measures as may appear neces-
sary for, the public safety. That the great increase in the
number of accidents which have of late occurred on rail-'
ways demands..the especial attention of this houses•
..that it is 'the duty of Majesty's Govern,- : •
inereneffectaal:.lriettgurea 'than Lent te
n"''' and
prone
safety of tho public While • -...w•exiit for sec,uring-tiie°
3fr..7ll.grreit awn- :" Gravelling on railways."
friend had :Shawn ..sided the motion. -Flirl;Oneurable
most conclusively that there w
,the railwaysdie maladministration of
woo-' -_A through the press. He had also shownth evils,
-on arose from the' want of a tribunal of referene: nch
.A:r
as was established upon -the Continent and in e/1'
--Without some such tribunal it was hopeless to expeactllacnay:
improvement' in theuailWay systein calculated to Secure the
_safety ctf..the public. Inhis opinion the resolution wasPer-
getly unobjectionable,and his hon. friend had applied to
the proper quarter, far it was tb the'Cloveriinient that all ,the;
Avila of the.presentsystera of railway travelling fairly aril,.
legitimately belonged. At the same time the ral "•
to complain of the proceedings Of Kill:tine& itsellwf.a7Ts They,
nad,- keen, called upon to pay, a sum of 11,000,000 for CIPY'
liamentary expenses in Bnglana.alone,,,e, sum suffic'e' f.tO‘
haVe (mediae(' 1,100 otrailway, Then had alsol 11
n
.sulljecteti sonio localities to excessive demands.?fl rjeop..e
landed proorietors, They:, had id '
5,000/. to 11,0001. per mile. Tind: in
such circumstances it
was not possible they CO{ll4'niaintain's a sufficient staff and
pay a remuneration' te.theit'preprieters
.put-
ting them to these vast expenses, Parlia.ment had, actually
But, aftei
Ile repeated then
-granted in many cases competing lines.
;that both Parliament And Government were to blamo fcki,
the existing system. The evil of 41
w.astaParenti Some
years ago, and a committee was al)
lord • Abernethy -presided,' to whom ;.•111,purOject°edv9Irlii.W1wIliac, li-
..lverete be referred. No tribunal ever arriatvccdprl,l;r;
jitst conclusions,. than this committee
mare eslnulat6d tedeveloP th interests arrived
t4e c uf,"l
they had been attended. to 'kit the -late Sir itoVel:1114
threw over its reports, andipthing was done. Undertrtheese
circumstances he had no hesitation i aYing tha,t whatever
n s

df :persons •atiinow .tray-IY

moved before wio-
Dim FITT"

imprevemehts Parliament could.' malts in the -rail Way ays-
`tein the. public were entitled to : atc its .hands.
(Hear; hear.)
, •
Mr. '.CAR DWELL—If I' do het occupy; .ati any great
the, time of, the, house upon .this .snbject, it will cer-
tainly be from no•want of a IthicereAionviction) of its ex-,
treme iinPortance; .'nor' will it be front-' the /east desire
distraetthe 'attention bf the-house from airie4i.en so in-
,
terestiogitoithe whole community ; but it will i)e out Of., a
.consideration for the ,position in which the ,qUestion has
been placed :by the House of =Commons itself.: The late
Government' with, 'r think,' very 'geed. judgment, deter-
.
m . •
ined 'that a most caTefullingniryshOuld be `
made into
the• Whole of ;the subjects, connected with . raiiways--that
inquiry is now making progress. I had not the honour of
objediendg
upon -inember of this horse ,at the - time the house de-
appointing that committed ; brit now i by-virtue
of
in te
the Offieel'hav,e the honour' to hold, it duty-to be
h
chair of „ that 'committee,: and we am taking the
utmost pains to sift and examine the whole question of the
mailagenient-of-railwar. We have 'examined- several per-
sons whci;.frarn 'their great einiirence in the railikay• world,
are most calculatati'to carry Weight from- their 'experionee,..
ulid Live lhat proceed •to examirie. more: ' W' have also
examfned'those who, by their official,Cennectide. with rail-
ways,- are mist:competent to- give us their opinions:-
have. repoited the evidence ' we-have- taken • •• froth time' to'
-
-fft of that Vine; in order that :the floiike'ajmf Cdeamiisituk
6n
the
effect of
the
bost anttftilleSi opportunity of
evidence.' 'Upon the-' iartienlar sUbject•of accidents very
tomprehensive,eViclence .was, a • fOrtui,ght ago; laid upon the
-.table-of-the •houseaud sent to the.pnntors. /t is only; del?
'lapse by the pressure ortthe.printers, ' but it will shortly'
be lit the povieSsiorref. Members of this 'house: •We have.,
further examined into -all the 'recent • accidenth' in detail,
and.shill present the. evidenca'to thehouse.- • Almost im-
mediately after'llias'aPPointed. to office sent'a gentle"-
Man to' examine whit were -the means- eMployeid upon tihe
French* and Belgttin railways for the purpose' of avoiding-
accidents.- • -The 'result
.of thatinquiry has been laid before
Parliainent, and has been .considered' by the committee.
The herr. gentleman' who-I:flings this motion- forward has
referred to a contrivance of great importonce, in regard to
the prevention of accidents, for making a coniMunieation
between guards and ' drivers. We' have taken evidence •
upon" that subje-ctL-we have a report front the " clearing
house" on that subject—and several of us haveseen thoin-
veil-Von actually in: the -.Course of experiment. I „think,
• then, it isi•-desirable 'that the Horse of Comtnens having
appointed this committed; • shoeld• be in a position to -con-
sider the evidence taken before it, before they commit •
'themselves Upon this' subject, (Hear.) The hbnourable
',,,,entleman 'has also referred; particularly, to a point-which
Lintel acknewledge to be well desetving of in cittiry---thatis,
to- the difference there is in 'the law upon this subject
'between different parts of the United Kingdoin. - Have
the .ceininitthe been' indifferent to that subjebt? When•
hoe, iiiemberS get the report, which is now in the hands of=
the .Printer, it will be found that the' cOmmitteehave taken
the evidence of the practical officers of the Boaad of Trade •
upon that subject ;'that they have had before them the
views of that very judge---a most able man, whom I) have
the honatir of calling my friend—te whom reference has
been Made, the Lord-Justice 'Clerk of Scotland, for he
kindly coremeniaated theine'itie; and I. laid them before
the committee. My learned friend -Lord-Advocate of
Scotland has just 'returned from eondttcting a successful
prosecution under the law 'of Scotland - against persons
guilty of cillpable negligence leading to accident and loss of
life. .I halve applied to him to attend as a witness-before'
the committee, and he has engaged_ to de so at the earliest
,possible
,oppertimitY. CeTtalnly then we are making pre.
gress in our Ul'quiry. Having got the opinion 'of the chief:
criminal judge of Scotland; we, shall slieTtlY haito that of
my loarnea friend the Lord Advocate as to': what the law
In SCOtland ; but it would be preinature us to pronounce,
9.4,444}
_;upon such a sUbject, before we have heard all
the evidence, (Hear,,hear.)
.I have here an extract show-
ing severe' the .Scotch criminal law is. *ill read it,
in order shOW that the subject is, as it deserves to be;
under , cenilderatieebe ' t -not 'as passing any opinion,
because I held-five Shonld Arst -examine the whole case and'
d tide ,gP9u ,the eviaenCe.: At the trial,referred to, the
tord-ingtice Clerk said; in summing hp, that; " after the
disclespsaavvi had peen. mastic,' t. plain.that on two.'
ther such occasion would 'be the patties rebonsible for
maiutaiuin,g, such a slate Of, thiio that would' be put at
the.bar-directers or manager,'" That, we are told, is the
law of scotanlid ; but it is not the laid of England. It inay.
he right,. or ..Litt, Anti he 'should 'be law but
.before either comniittee ay. the ,Louse_ of Commons
pass aey,opinien upon the sii bleat, they shoz.dd thoroughly;
understand ~the;,case.c. When the House of Cointhens
appointed a committee to go lefP,these cases,
eider them, I am.sure that they intended that= they sln,V(l
be carefully considered; ,that the conoeiWie „should coma
:prepared with ,their whole jneasure,tp. the ,lionee, not that'
they should, prosecute their inquiry under the ;direction of
the house, or that Use house should adopt some abstract'
resolutions. (11ear,,hear..) During the last few days we
have hid a :document laid.before us through. the public
Tress of great interept.::. It•ws.4 the result of an inquiry
which, by direction of, the Congress of the United States,
has been made by, a. committee for the purpose of ascer-
taining homrkfar the interference of:Government is desirable
for the purpose of .preventing accidents. There is a great
deal well- worth reading that report,- The committee
say. it is very.doubtful whether a more direct interference
might,not tend to increase the danger, to the public, instead
of diminishing it; and they give the following reasons
"To divide the authority from which the regulations
necessary. to effect these objects must .emanate, would give
rise to confusion and embarassmentc, engender bad feelings
and hostility on the part of companies, take from officers
their reipoitsibility,.and might result disastrously for the
safety 'of the- public." Then,.l say, give us time to know
-whether What .we are called upon to recommend will
"result disastrously for the safety to the public," before we
express any opinion. • I have no objection to assume to the
Government any responsibility which will tend to promote
the •pribliusafety. . I desire to say clearly and distinctly that
we do not ask for power,,nor and wo anxious for responsi-
I.bility pyot, if- by casting-responsibility -upon us you can
secure the safety -of the public, it is,your duty to cast it
upon' ns,- and It is our duty to undertake it. . Only, do it=
well advised ; and do net 'come to a resolution te•that
effect until you have read thw,•evidence. .(Hear, hear.)
The honourable gentleman • who brought forward this •
subject 'dees'not • impute that 'the very- ;'meted powers of
(the)Boat'd"of Tx:m(11111We been neglected or imiroperly ex- .
ercised ; and I' h&te 'eheard_ him -do justice •td the.- able
-public. servant; Captain Situncins;to whose asiiduityl.
Myself bear testimony; but he complaints 'Of the state of
the law. 'as -I' have said; the House of Commons
have appointed a cominitteo • which Will into and report •
upon.. that • *subject: • We have not been negligent in.our
'cluty*ith regard`to that inquiry ; but allow 'to coMe-to
a termination, Not only the committee but the Govern-
ment Ure;giVing 'their, attention to this subjeCt.t I thidOr-
stood the honOurablO *entleinan.;' tb say that in bringing
forivard this Motilnither was: giving tutthe benefit of his 'ea
npetiente';''blit•the,tlM6Sor making arlu'aCticil7iiiotion
•be 'when thecemiiiittee haVo irende' their' re-Port. I have
no tight; howeirer,-- complain of the motion • but-the
piestion how-arises, how 'the hOnse deal with' it ? The
hohtintable gentleman truly Said ',that When he' showed. it ,
to me T eoulal take no objection to it. That is so. '1 de
not think that any 'more true proposition can- be stated
than "that is 'the duty of a good Government: to propose
to this lichee all such tneasuros as may appear necessary
Iltethepublic safety.." I shall not dispute that. Neither
is it in my power to dispute " that the great increase int
the 'number -of accidents which have of late occurred on
.railways;•demands the especial attention of this house,"
or that ' "it is the 'duty 'Of her Majesty's Government to
propoiie More effectual measures than now exist for secu-
ring the safety of the public while travelling on-railways!'
That is Certainly to do what we are doing, namely, most
carefully to assist in the examination of these Matters, and
to -ascertain the state of the law as it exists in different
parts of the kingdom, in order that we may' obtain one
which, will be effectual. It only remains, then, to consider
What' 'lb be done with the motion. IS it respectful in
the house towards itself, or calculated to create' confidence
in the public; to 'Paid a resolution which Will stand upon
out- proCeedingis as a mere abstract resolution without any
practical consequence. (Hear, hoar.) I would advise the
.honourable' gentlernan to take the course I have just inti-
mated, because it is not usual to pet on the books motions '
Of -an abstract nature leadingto no practical consequences.
If-he is content to adopt that course, then it L. will not be
necessary for me to' make any motion upon the subject;
but if he does not, it will be my duty, with' a view merely
to kedping the •proceedings of the house' in .conformitywith
the us* practice; to -move the previous question. (Hear,
hetir:)- : , - _ •

MVREGOR said he could not allow some of the
observation of the bon. member for Tewkesbury to pass
'unanswered: , The .honourable gentleman had takeb the'
ground that tho • directors of raiLways had not per-
formed their duty to the public by. efficiently carrying'out
the administration placed in their liana. In antwer:to
thht,' he .47frould call attehtion to the precautions now used
over more•thain 7,000 Lacs of railway, L which a few
years ago were perfectly unknown. So far as hutrian in-
genuit'y -mill& secure the safety and convenience of the
public,,the whole bodrof.men engaged in .conducting the:
railway traffic, of the.'eountay, were devoting their atten--
tion to tire subject. Fog signals, distant signals, 'and
elebtric telegraph, • all of which had only 7
brought into use .were a 'proof of the
asserted without fear of tontradie+'

' - Y bee;
~..• ,;•
...:..ertion ; and he
~..AUX; that such a number
' I ...ned'UPoni railways were never
' ..,..
: • • • .A comparatively stYfew accidents:" . 4.l.aixtE gaVe.the honourable gentleman (Mr.. WO-re,
50). credit for having stated that;Whiclf.he believed tll be
the, a ;,.but he'deemed it of inipOrtincefithat the.,whote
subject of railway. management Should be brought under
• th 4 consideration both of the Government and, of thnbonso.,
Undue powers had been given to certain.liersone, and it
was the, duty of the ' house' to see that those powerky were made, useful for. the benefit of the; pul3lie. • Tilt
after the declaration of the right honourable gentlemiiithe
P,reildenttof the Board'of 'Trade; than which nothing could •
be ~more .satisfactory, lie reCeniin. ended his honourable _
friend the, member for Tewkesbury to withdraw thei,1329,)
tion, reserving, as he had; the right Otbringing if 'on: 4-
N, a
future .time. •••i , -•- -' ~ ", .
;ay., WADDINGTON -Was 'donVincixl that: on this b-
iject the right hon. gentleniab the Presidel of th SU°
Trader in Ihis position' as ehaitTaii3, of lie ra';fr Board,a 1
mittee,.,Would •do all An his"poWe'r to arrive'atl Nvi3;te°_anllid
fair conclusion: ' (Ilear, hear:l The' hfi: member, si
' ' `i''s
trouncing themotion, had.stat d' hat tlit
156 e rat6dwparyoviiiidtee,rebyst.
or the directors.of -railvn44-s -Were i d`
evera. ,:possible 'means for the safent yi 136 f ' Stehdelp'nblic, and, he
oouhl OA 'allow thabLetatementrto.be made wi—thout giyin
itctl•
amposittrttt,mgrattaiified derdal...' Sinee.th lien. gentleman
in: ilwAy manageMent a Very diffeient'state of
things had arisen, aud•khe Could askinre the hon gentleman
and the. house . from thirteen nt'ears e,
(that he did net know.an iAstance infourteen whicy h theexperie Boardnf of
'Trade had made auggestioni with' reference, to the ,publie
6afety,i in which the -direct Ors had' not 'either carried those •
suggestiona out; onAhown the Board'that it Was inipossible
:to carry them out:;: .With reference to the allusion. Which
Thad been made by:the hon. gentleman to an accident on the
~,EasternOttuntiesitailWay,andthe report up'on it, although ;
exception: was taken to that repoA b_y the chief of4cert..of,.
the yailway,, it had the' effect of calling the latteiqfp.4
ope.ls944ttletaf.theboard-tothe cOnSeCyfell4 Ofnegligence
by a railway servant ; and from that time, now nearly two
years ago, nothing approaching to an accident had occurred
on that line. Railway directors were sincerely desirous of

.1 ~,

/
s-/-
--.__------e--e----e--6.-e-J----r/
' ver an accident did occur, Whether on.
4.2,r,('
es szt. .. , . . . so ', , ,e. .j jt7re- 1;11i4 • ..''
.'
-.
~,,,,: , .
...,:z
~(
~.. : : ienaastnanikaltfespel,anrfedet„viiMm ry, f.f. it were.poski;:from these
siran_lisiciehty'til,e4d „regret. ; , Meals ,hear, the
/.,,,,e..,..,,,,,.4.
c. ,'
,their,,olvn Jine- or the lines of, other. companies, for the
vzi
'Were net reripopsible, they felt
• ..'-': matil:hhe:lllll:eae;Ylideteet4e°l:. il*tef.'6:!-4ie ,conimittai'over which the
Mr- 'Cardwell), Presided, convinced
.right"hon. gentleman
reYeiv§f, an the eiretimstancea theywould
that, on a careful
'•
.lir.e4.ot: ie-ilkt'l'illicl-I':w°ul4-1-S beneAcial to the railway
~ isitareit, and,',at_ the 'same tin:ieseprisNeava le. the greater
safety of the Public. . . 1 , ,
' '' 1./r;.Lgism.rdsdfdr. the-purpose Ok4o'AVoiiili, as far as
he'potild, 'aii 4PFessioli .N.;140.1.1P;12,11t ot '-hertvise,get abroad
on fraepart:' Of the raiiat_iMarestspul. ill the minds of
' fl'PA't.),l43 reepaislinft)iesi,.inever of the rea.elntion, that
(stringent,.nd u
oe to
railway .I.iieetOrgih4re wag 6,17 diSniclinatiOii, to submit
t;ii'aichgecoasuniic-le''beof4 gre6vveeol,4t.enotal;onilto,tio.l/4.1i,11017:-4r.
litibli`C'f.sifety.• , HOweit_er nalto ~,' "lfe reil*Siy„mterest might
justly Conipltiini Orratllaineli laaii,neriiiltafts4to unnecs-
Sari eXpense, When' illiksVib iellifety sv.aairypivecl. every
ether ceSisideration MOW gi.o vjay, ISM if any measure
' were intrOdue,ed 'with that Vie*, there t.i. onldnot only be
no factious opposition "final-SW° tailway.naterest, but rail
• way directors, would' lie the flreiftest tdassistin carrying
• it into effect. ' (Hear, lit.eaY.).' `lndependent.of all. COD sid.er as •
tions of humahity,''to' aVh•qhrh'e'hoVeilro-reittailway direcs
tors were not altogether' lOst,' the p.4414at-frAponsibility
made it apparent to' ceinhien,aense tlifft'thWttirectore were
anxious to ' drt-everYthingiii'llieir power to assist the Go-
: vernment 'hi anyineasure sashicirehmild lfe really conducive
to the piiblia safety. But the question involved in this
resolution, and mere especially involved lit trio observations
of the honourable mover of it, was the extent, and nature of
foverninent interference. He *bald not itaferlosthe report
"of' the' American 'Conaniitt.l.b,4•Whibh contained Very sound
Views on this subject;' brit' the 'qttestion of Government in-
terference had already- beensinvestigated by a 'committee
of this house. - Soon after the railway department of the
Boarder • Trade was first constituted, fliers swore loud de- ,
,
mand;.; for the Most stringent GOierntrient-ablierol, and a
coriniritte:e's preaidecl levier 'by thtVright lien. g,entlenian the
. member for Taunton, at that time,President . of Lthe Board'
9..`-' Trade. was aPPeintEals.A4ad the resulk,was:a complete
explosion of the notion that vs; amount:of interference on
-the part a the'doVeipiiieht would 'COliduseeo the public
"'safety. 'lt etas Olivieui fhat iNlie't-Atirrifrieat assumed
the practical -chillier of the ivailiing of•rMwayssall respon- -
,sibility with those who heed charge of theirinanagement
disappeared. 'Geverninent'interferencen4ght lie invoked
for inereasinglitiblie gofetf ;`,l3'irtit niusfiesial's%e'itself into
three ineakiess-s-either Iles -Ghitsireinent must; assume a
superintendence of minute detalhi, which; he, was satisfied,
Swould be attended with the worst Passible- consequences ;
...or give stich additioaal security to railway
mew.
that
.• the ceinpanies would be in a' phSition fo' large ex-
..Pensas in making exPeiinientV,-Wd'agt ti;s3biillnihe means
:et iiii.uring thegreateat poSsible seduritYs'or,"if the present
, state a the lats-was -net. efficient, -make it -efficient, to
--bringshonie the responsibility to the proper parties. (Hear,
hen,r4 - :_ir,
14a4 read; frith great pleasure and-salt...faction,
-
the recent judgment of Lord-JuStie, Clerk, and ho
believed that was the common Sense view of the subject.
He should besexceeldingly happy if
those principles were
,i the general la* ssf the'land; so that every one 'in all grades
of railway' Management might feel that; in the event of
negligence, they would- be- Made -reaponaible should any •
adeidentioccur. - (years)i 'He thought itsonly right to
state in 'confirmation of 'the teatimony borne by the hon.
' member for Sandwich;and as the -result of his long expe-
rience 'that, a niore:zealonS and intelligent body of men it
'would be difficult to briagstogether than the class of offi-
cers to schoeithe working oftailway 'traffie was intrusted.
He believed they were keenly alive to the responsibilities
which attached td their several situations and in the die-
chargesaf their duties were deserving of ali praise. Indeed.,
if it were not SO, it would be absolutely impoSsible to con-
duct the great mass of traffic on the English railways with
even the number of accident's.- which Was now 'thought to
be so Plarg& (Hoar, hear.) ' This led hies to remark, in
comparing the accidents on English with the accidents on
foreign railways, on the greater speed and •greater number
of trains in this country. -In Belgium there were few ac-
cidents ; but' by -the Belgian trains they did not travel
mute faster than' 'by the old stage coach. -(Hear, hear.)
lii France there were few accidents ; and in America, until
• lately, their number • was very limited: - •The speed, com-
paratively speaking, was slow; and the number of trains
would be totally inadequate to meet the -'wants of an Eng-
• lish,eommunity. s Where, imEngland 'ten or twenty trains
were run, in France-or-America the number was. only four
or five. As the.speed was increased,' the number of acci-
dents increased. In a, recent letter from Berlin he saw an
'acrSumt of five serious accidents on the Prussian- railways,
and in America the. SOU of the President had-lost his life
' in 'as fsightful a casualty as had ever been-reported. (Hear,
hear.)• , VT the last official return from the Board of Trade,
it appeared that, while, the number of .passengers in the
'half-year ending the 30th JuneslBs2, was 39,249;605, only
one passenger-was-killed from causes beyond his own con-
trot. He did not dispute the fact that accidents had oc-
curred which-ought not to have occurred;
.and that they
'Ought to be prevented' by legislation,. if legislation could
prevent them. ißut-no later than the last half-year, it was
sshoWis by an official return. hat,. with the multiplicity of
trains, and the high into of speed to medt, the public wants
-only one passenger had lost his lie from causes beyond his
'Own controL •• -In conclusion; .ha would observe, that in
common-with all who were interested in the subject of rail-
. way accidents, he hoped mom°, good would result from the
committee now presided ever :Ltylthe, President af testßord,
of Trade. He did not look for that good, in any lusive
benefits to he given to, railway companies, because he be-
Aieved, if railway property. did benefit indirectly, the
•public advantage must-in the first instance be consulted.
-'(ST---lear.) ' , • ' .• s -. • ; ~ -
• Ali', H. BROWN derried that railway management had
Itaprcive,l of late years,. :find : asserted. that the common
question nod asked at every breakfast-table was, " Are .
in to-day's paper?" (Hear.)
'The motion was accoMingly,withslrawn.
,Heany breigigwed4 to withdrawlleel4ents
reNthrte(k otl9n
e nil . ,
-,
BRECON tOLLEC-E.
Mr. GOULBURN, in moving for leave to introduce a
bill for the future regulation', Management.;
And permanent
endowment of the College of Christ,.in 'Brecoxl4 explained
that -the management...of- ecclesiastical endosOLlients, is
deaneries in which Brasses' was; included, devola -ed upon
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and in 1845 trmii ' atten-
tion was directed to the nature of the property AL s 4 the
Obligations of the 'trust of the College of Brecon. It ap-
peared that the original constitution was under a char ter
of as early 'a date as the thirteenth century, confirmed i'll
the reign of .King Henry VIII. The college was to be
established for tbse encouragement of letters and divinity,
and extending the benefita.of education throughout that.
portion of the principality of 'Wales. ' From the antiquity'
'of the 'grants, there were • sliffictiltias' in the way of aster-•
taming the precise purpose-of the donors; and the extent
of the property applicable td the collegiate aml,ecclesiasti-
cal part of the establishment, and-., with a view to deter-
mine those questions sous_, gentletheit at' Brecon proposed
to file a hill in Chancery. ,;17/04n oxionination it clearly
appeared that, 'from the number of parties to the suit,
nearly the wholb!.. of the property -would.. be. expended.
That being a coursevwltich.,i,t, was not advisable. to pursue,
the Ecclesiastical -.Consmissieners.,proposed a ee.napromise,
and by mutstal consent, it was agreed that 6, bill sisould be
' brinight into ,Pailiament to-give - effect to an' arrangement
by which the lacTesiasticial 'Management-devolved upon th .e -
y4e,clesiiestictil • : Conithissioners;:f.and ' by ;which. ,a permanent
colle-
giate or.olfool establishm t, And, a college would be esta-
' .endovitnent, of
.aufficient ,aballi*
i1y,,4
,0,40,gua
'bushed at 8r.,i:0911 cake_,l,94, Ittlp.;.,fnlfil -in eyeFf,respect the
to the
purpos.s- el' tIV Prlgyillic ,er. ; jt, was rl3'conforittMl
with' that ii.FranPinelit t st s• prOpOscart to Introduce tl'e
'bill of which ht., liad„giyen,netir..e. The subject was one ot.'
• considerable coMp2-..i-OP*_,P+ am./
,li. thought, it better too
defer any explanation 0,4 tue dot:sibs: until the house should.
ha„,., haul= opportithity,,e. a:43414141,e bill itself. It. was
enough. for hi in to state that ISLy:Nae
p.„:iioierl -schema sub-
mitted to their.apprebation,:the nice na..
u-
d ordinances by
which the college would be governed ;very 1::illY set forth.
Hes.was glad to be able to satld,. that ,v,,:ben1;443 13,7eitlell
e 0
leases fell in, an amount of property :would devola-- .71 the.
college establishment worthy of the monareh by Nyl:°" „-
O.'
i d.
was founded, and that an institution-avoid.' be e.`stabsb:Sl ',eh.
in that part of the principality -which would 1 n
.se .I.* ,
conducive to the advancement of 'letters and le. "4111t1 '''''
(Hear, hear.) • •, -- •• - •-•-• •• .
Mr. HUME thought more information . should be given
befere any further proCeedings on this bill took place, to
satisfy the house that the scheme, proposed would be of
the greatest possible utility to the community,. and cr all'
out the will of the donor to the greatest possible advent age.
He should object to any-new clerical establishment, ti' II he
saw how-far the funds were applied to the communi4 py.o.t
large, for whom he. understood they were original': r in-
tended.
(Hear.; hear.)
B , .
Sir B. HALL said the object of.the.bill, as ha uncle Mood-
it, was- tot/flake that-uaelhil which had hitherto been 1 iseless,*
and toapply funds*hiah ought 101;5 since to have b /Jen ap-
plied to the educatioeof the people. A.,-; an inhabitant oof that
part of the country, and knowing something of-the circum-
stances, he was very much obliged to the Beal Aiastical
Commissioners for having .turned their. attention . at last to
'this establishment',. and he 'hoped ample tinSe before the
, second reading would 'be given to -enable) the- esi dents in
the principality: te. Master -the Contents' of OAK. 'measure.
The property belonging- to this'establishMeut w: it' of enor-
,mous-extent. - -He behaved the propetty was woi s th nearly
8;090/: a year,- and ' the "house would heat with si ame sur-
prise, that although this 8,000/. a year 'had been enjoyed
by somebody—not-by the laity--a short time ago tl ken) was
hardly a.boy in the-school; and from 4839 down in ' a very
recent period, nobs single prayer had been offered up in
that place of worship. . The building had been use 'd by
-those who had charge of it for the most improper purp, uses,
and during fairs horses had. been' takes' in to istand, at Id a
charge made for the ankoMmodation. - If the funds I.taci
been properly applied-there might not have been so muoll,
:ignorance in that part' cif :the. principality, as: those funds
-were amply 'sufficient for -the educational atCwell as +,--
ecclesiaSticalpurposes. "A' short tiroasinaa “- ''
a pane of glass in thq :bi,o'4,- ,- '" , ~'-' .‘ --...-
through tbas -s " ..- ~ -
and •

I:
..., - • ‘. • - ' .-- ...ere was ardly
, . .—....igi "the water Was ranninz
a gentlbmih
__,
.moor, anti: sheep were' in the prebendal tall"
Who hada ceful
_ a x
et the altar. It was .altogetEihnei'bu'isnbib'ati
ma6bsotokd,isin which
Lta.t:::l',l, Sir
re
Teoh°llme;lO3fhilli-Brte4co' n co
ereat interest in the naatter,. aid
'almost teavke::
'bine(' abuse which exiited,in the aptoropriati? of ecclesiastical property,
,Th 'tioti and mans, gement
The' church was not kept in re-
vices were performed. ThnS were delivered, and no ser.
building, was aa: dil ' ' The.
college elatit'6l)., a handsome
fallen-in, had not a'lllpidated that-the' roof would have
the college made the ayman who reebtfrial"his education at
,had not , been , e neeeSaarj, rpairs.
; and public worship
ash
e had maw, -wim- .4
perfbtroed in it since 1839." The property,
ixity had 0. • . orth - 7,5004 or .8,000/. a year. The
u-n tA enjoyed'h; '' Sem .
(Hear, hear.) . -r, ebody all
have enjoyed it.
.iny thy: act of 1836, all the bishops were to
wash ,
e,e • rtean fixed incomes, and the Bishop of St. David's
to have 4,500 a year. - ll'predecessor sent '
• IR in an ac-
count of the inceme oaf theses, by which it was proved to
•be 1i609/. less than 4,500/. a, year, and therefore 1,6001. a
Bear was • paid- by the' Ecclesiastical Cpmirdslioners to the
ishop9f St. David's to- male up'the supposed deficiency.
That deficiency did not exist, as theriiiconie of a prependal
stall was more than .1,600/. a year. ' The reason he had
alluded to this was that the Bishop of St. David's happened
to be dean land, treasnrer of this collegiate .church, and the
--;property of this collegiate establishment formed a portion
of his income to the extent of 300/:(81:'400/. a year, for
. which• he performed no duty whatever.•. 'He wished' the
right hon. gentleman would tell them. whether there had
been an communicatiort 'with the Bishop of 'St. David's
as togiving up the money he received over and above the
income assigned to the see, and particularly that portion
for which he did nothing whatever. (Hear.)
Afr.--AGLIONBY thought further information should
be laid on the table of the•house. It Would b.'e still more
valuable if the Ecclesiastical- Commissioner 4 accompanied it.
with some report of their own on the necessity of the bill,
and any.oorrespondence which had passed between them
and the. bishop of the diocese. - • - ..
Mr. GOULBURY Still thought the better course was to
postpone detailed explanations. The-preamble stated the
general facts, •and if any explanation' was desired there
inforniation of the
;wouldbe:-,ao difficulty in aeordiug”
*
grounds on which the Ecclesiastical Commissioners thought
it better to forego a suit in Chancery, which would absorb
the whole of the property. The honourable member for
Marylebone Neemed to represent to the house that the pre.