The Sun.
London, England, 1853-02-19 00:00:00

sion to which I have adverted, he took credit for the liberal
energy of his policy; and described the principles recom-
mended by his present chief as being a system of antiquated
imbecility. We therefore should know clearly whether
our foreign policy is to be conducted on a principle of
liberal energy or antiquated imbecility. If the principles
of our foreign policy have never changed, how can the
Chancellor of the Exchequer and the First Lord of the Ad-
miralty vindicate the eatrrse which they formerly took, the
resolutions which they then supported, and the sentiments
they then expressed ? I think they will find it a difficult
task. (Hear, hear.) I have no doubt the noble lord is
perfectly convinced of the justice and truth of the senti-
ments he expressed in 1852. Anything that falls from his
lips on such a subject--ot, indeed, upon any subject—as
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, is entitled to the
highest consideration. But, how long is he going to re-
main Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs? (Cheers.) I
am not speaking now from mere rumour. I ask—and it is
a legitimate question in a debate on our foreign policy—
why did the noble lord take the important post he occu-
pies ? Was it because his opinions on the French connec-
tion were well known ? Well, is he going to leave the
post because his Cabinet, or the majority of his Cabinet,
does not agree with those opinions ? This, therefore, is
clearly a subject on which some explanation is due to the
house. (Loud cheers.) I know I may be met, but I
hardly think I shall be met, by the allegation that
I have no right to suppose the noble lord is about to
quit the office he is so competent to occupy. I said, Ido
not speak from rumour on this point, and I will now state
to the house the authority on which I said so. It is a
paragraph in a paper—a journal. I hope, notwithstanding
the conduct of the journals that have criticised somo of us,
it will not be undervalued on that account. It is, to bor-
row an expression from our neighbours, " A communica-
tion," and it appears in a journal of great respectability.
It appears, in a large letter, in a prominent place, in a
newspaper, and commences with the significant words,
" We are authorised to state"—in fact, it is redolent of
Downing-street, and no doubt comes from it. (A laugh.)
This first paragraph—for there have been four of them—
informs us that the arrangements, which were not quite
made when the Cabinet was formed, are now pretty well
settled ; the noble lord the member for London is to con-
tinue leader of the House of Commons, but is to relinquish
the office of Secretary of State, and he will probably not
assume any other office. I have not the paragraphs here,
and it was only by chance I read them yesterday, but I
can state pretty nearly the substance of them. That was
a very strange announcement, no doubt ; but then came
the second paragraph. We understood from the first that
the noble lord had accepted office as Secretary of State
provisionally ; but people were surprised at this ' • and then
there came forth another paragraph, in which they were
' authorised to state" that this was a mistake, that the
noble lord was not to hold office as Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs, but was to have some office where there
was nothing to do somewhere in the neighbourhood of
Waterloo-bridge. (A laugh.) In fact, the only place the
description met was that of the toll-gatherer of that un-
fortunate bridge. (Roars of laughter.) Well, Sir, that
paragraph was not satisfactory. The noble lord, what-
ever the opinions of some of us may be, is rather a fa-
vourite of the people of England—(hear, hear, hoar)—
and they did not consider that was exactly the treat-
ment to which a man of his position was entitled. (Cheers.)
There was then another paragraph, in which it was stated.
" on authority" that all the other paragraphs were erro-
neous—that the noble lord was going to resign the office of
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, but was certainly
to continue leader of the house, and that he was to have a
room allowed him in the office of the Secretary of State.
(Laughter.) But the climax was reached when a fourth,
and rather an angry paragraph, written, it seemed, with
some feeling of personal indignation, appeared, in which it
was stated that nothing could be more erroneous or pre-
mature than the announcements that the noble lord was
going to remain in the Foreign-office—that he was not to
continue leader of the House of Commons—that he was to
have a room in the Foreign-office—a small room, I think it
said—but that he was to be allowed two clerks. (Much
laughter.) Sir, I confess I must protest against this sys-
tem of shutting up great men in small rooms, and of bind-
ing to the triumphal chariot wheels of administrative abi-
lity all the fame and genius of the Whig party. (Cheers.)
I think I have a right to ask the noble lord frankly—" Are
you Secretary of State, or are you not ?" (Loud cheers.)
If he is Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs ho will no
doubt, on the subject we are treating of to-night, afford
us very satisfactory information ; but, if he is Secretary
of State now, but is not to be Secretary of State to-mor-
row, I think the declaration of the noble lord, on a ques-
tion of foreign policy, is much depreciated in the value
which wo would otherwise attach to it. (Hear, hear.) Sir,
considering the conduct of the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty—conduct which I will not describe, for, to say that
it was the result of design would be offensive, and to
say that it was indiscreet would, as I said before, be im-
pertinent • considering the conduct of the Secretary of the
Board of Control, which, be it designed or. indiscreet, or
anything else, no epithets can rescue him fregn the position
he occupies,—considering the programma of the First
Minister, which contradicts all our most recent experiences
and confounds all our convicti mis,—considering the myste-
rious circumstances which attend on the present occupation
of the post of Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs by the
noble lord the member for London, I think I have a right
to ask for what has not yet been accorded—some clear ex-
planations from the Government with respect to the rela-
tions which exist between this country and France.
(Cheers.) There is one other reason why I am bound to
pursue this inquiry at the present moment, and I find that
reason in the present state of parties in this house. It is
a peculiar state of things—it is quite unprecedented—it is
well deserving the attention of hon. members who sit in
that quarter of the house (pointing to the benches below
the gangway on the Ministerial side). We have at this
womaut a Conservative Ministry, and we have a Conserva-
tive
Opposition. (Cheers.) 'Where the great Libel-al party
is, I pretend not to know. (Cheers.) Where aro the
Whigs—with their great traditions—with two centuries of
Parliamentary lustre, and deeds of national patriotism ?
(Loud cheers.) There is no one to answer. (Renewed
cheering.) Where, I ask, are the youthful energies of
Radicalism its buoyant expectations its expanded
hopes ? Awakened, I fear, from the dreams of that ardent
inexperience which attends sometimes the career of
youth, it finds itself at the same moment used and dis-
carded—(cheers)—used without compunction, and not
discarded with too much decency. (Cheers.) Where are
the Radicals ? Is there a man in the house who declares
himself to be a Radical ? (Hear, hear.) No, not one,
He would be afraid of being caught and turned into a
Conservative Minister. (Laughter.) Well, how has this
curious state of things been brought about ? Where is the
machinery by which it has been effected—the secret sys-
tem that has brought on this portentous political calamity?
I believe I must go to that inexhaustible magazine of po-
litical devices, the First Lord of the Admiralty, to explain
the present state of affairs. The house may recollect that
some two years ago, when I had the honour of addressing
them on a subject of great importance, the First Lord of
the Admiralty afforded us, as is his wont, one of those politi-
cal creeds in which his speeches abound ; and the right
hon. gentleman on that occasion, in order that there might
be no mistake—in order that the house and the country
should be undeceived, and that they should not have any
false expectations from, especially the Conservative or Pro-
tectionist party, said, in a manner the most decided, that
his political creed was this: —" I take my stand on pro-
gress." Well, sir, I thought at the time that progress was
an odd thing to take one's stand upon. (Laughter and
cheering.) I thought at the time that a statesman who
took his stand on progress might find he had got a very
slippery foundation. I thought at the time, though the
right hon. gentleman weighs his words, that this was a
piece of oratorical slip-slop. But I apologise for the mo-
mentary suspicion. I take the earliest opportunity of ex-
pressing to the right hon. gentleman my sincere regret that
I had for a moment supposed he had made an inadvertent
observation. I find that it was a system perfectly matured,
and now brought into action, of which the right hon. gentle-
man spoke. For wehave nowgot a Ministry of " progress,"
and every one stands still. We never hear the word " reform"
now; it is no longer a Ministry of reform; it is a Ministry of
progress, every member of which resolves to do nothing.
(Laughter.) All difficult questions are suspended. All
questions which cannot be agreed upon are open questions.
Now, I don't want to be unreasonable, but I think there
ought to be some limit to this system of open questions.
(Cheers.) It is a system which has hitherto prevailed only
partially in this country, and which never has prevailed
with any advantage to it. Let us, at least, fix on some
limits to it. Let Parliamentary reform, let the ballot be
open questions if yon please ; let every inststution in
Church and State be open questons; but, at least, let your
answer to me to-night prove that, among your open ques-
tions, you are not going to make one of the peace of Europe.
(Loud cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL.—If the right hon. gentleman wished
to obtain an explanation from Government with respect to
the state of its foreign policy, he might have confined his
observations to a very small portion of that which he has
addressed to the house ; for the statement I made the
other night, that we were on terms of intimate friendship
with France, and that we were acting in concert with
France, with the view of maintaining the peace of Europe,
might almost have sufficed for a member of this house who
was anxious to obtain some assurance on that important
question. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman, when he
sat on this side of the house, observed, with respect to a
change which was proposed to be made in some adminis-
trative department, with respect tb economy as regards
the conduct of public business in a public office, that if
that question was introduces into the house he was afraid
it would unfortunately be made a party question. There is
no doubt, if that were the case, and if questions with re-
spect to how many clerks were to be in one office, and
as to whether there should be two or three clerks in another
office, had been made party questions, it would have said
very little for the patriotism of the house ; but, at least,
the evil, though somewhat scandalous, would not have
been very calamitous. But when the right hon. gentleman
tries to make a party question of our foreign policy—
(cheers)—when he tries to throw suspicion on the inten-
tions of Government towards our nearest neighbour—
(cheers)—when he tries to sow dissension between two of
the most powerful countries of Europe—then, indeed, he
makes a party question a calamity, and in bringing for-
ward such a question in the spirit manifested in his speech,
takes a part which becomes a mind deeply imbued with
faction. (Loud cheers.) Sir, I said the other night, and
I repeat ;t now, that the Government of this country is on
terms of amity with the French Government. (Hear.) I
was happy to hear the right hon. gentleman say that the
domestic policy of France was a matter of concern for
them, and not for us, and that we were not to interfere in
their domestic concerns. Well indeed would it have been
if these sentiments had prevailed in this house in February',
1793. I cannot help reflecting what torrents of blood
might have been spared, and what millions of treasure
might have been saved—(cheers)—if it had been then laid
clown
as a principle by all the statesmen in this house that
isb ouitritnhge
riunghttrih co eso. n.
we should not interfere in the domestic concerns of neigh-
bouring
(gear.) But
requires? The right
other
explanation hon.
gentleman alluded to a speech of mine in February, 1852.
To all the sentiments of that speech I still adhere. There
is one misreport in that speech to which I may as well
allude. lam supposed to have said that the measures
adopted by the President were no doubt for the welfare of
France. What I stated was, that no doubt the President
considered the measures he had taken were for the welfare
of France. (Hoar, hear.) I did not deny that it may be
necessary in certain cases to take all power out of the
hands of the people, and the ruler of France no doubt
might have thought it was necessary to do so at that period.
Whether it was or was not necessary was a question on
which I of course did not pass an opinion, on which I de
not pass an opinion now. (Hear, hear.) I thought it WaS•
a lamentable sight, during the last five years, to see France
throw off the monarchy under which (as we understood—
for the noble lord's words at the time did not reach us).
she had been peaceful and prosperous, and place herself
under a republic so strangely constituted' that it seemed. as.

if allsits elements were framed to make war on each
other ; and that that intestine war could only have been
brought to a termination by surrendering the most valuable
powers a people could exercise ;—that indeed has been
a melancholy spectacle. But I hoped that the talented
and ingenious people, who in 1789 began the reform of
their constitution, might have arrived by this time
at that which is the most desirable and important of all
national blessings, and I still believe they will find the
means, when the fear of that exti eme democracy has
subsided by which their government can be improved,
and that we shall still see them enjoying those institu-
tions, not exactly similar to ours, but as nearly so as is
suited to the character of the people, which are calculated
to bring to perfection and reward the exercise of peaceful
industry and the attainments of superior talent. In that
spirit, therefore, I looked on the events which have
taken place in France with every desire to suppose
that the ruler of that country was intent on putting
an end to anarchy and disorder, and on perfecting such
a Government as would give rest to the people. (Hear,
hear.) It happened that the Government which fol-
lowed, which was the Government of the Earl of
Derby, had another question to consider of very grave
importance—namely, the recognition of the imperial dig-
nity in the person of the ruler of France—the recognition
of a dynasty almost—certainly the recognition of a prince
under the title of Emperor, and in the name of Napoleon
111. It was natural that the powers of Europe' with the
recollection in their minds of what had occurred from 1804
to 1814, should have wished to obtain some assurance that
the Government about to be constituted should adopt the
international acts of the Government which had preceded
it ; but the Government of this country, by the advice of
Lord Derby and the Earl of Malmesbury, took that secu-
rity which they thought necessary, and, when they had
obtained that security, at once acknowledged the Emperor
of France by the title of Napoleon 111. They did not
wait till the other powers had come to a similar decision.
My belief is they did well and wisely in that decision. I
have examined the correspondence which took place on the
occasion, and the conclusion to which I came certainly is
that the Earl of Malmesbury, in that correspondence, while
he showed the utmost conciliation, at the same time main-
tained the dignity of this country. (Cheers.) Therefore lam
not going to blame the Government which preceded us for
any step it took on that occasion. No doubt that early
recognition tended to conciliate the Government of France,
and, therefore, when we entered into office we found the
basis laid for the most amicable relations with France. I
believe,. as I have stated often in this house, that a good
understanding in this country with Franco is of the great-
est value to the promotion of the haqiness of both coun-
tries, and to the peace of Europe. And not with France
alone, because I think a conciliatory policy should be
adopted toward all the powers of Europe ; and, as far as
I can see, all these powers are disposed so to shape
their conduct as to maintain peace in Europe. Upon
that great question to which the right hon. gentleman has
alluded—namely, the question of Turkey, it is no doubt
most desirable to act with a good understanding with
France. But at the same time I think it is the duty of
this country, disinterested as it is upon this question, to
preserve that attitude which can enable it to give friendly
advice to all those States among whom a difference may
arise; to maintain the kingdom of Turkey from any aggres-
sion, and at the same time to accomplish that by negotia-
tion and by friendly counsel. Sir, that end will, I trust,
be accomplished. The right hon. gentleman has alluded—
and I think most unnecessarily—to speeches that have been
made at the hustings by two of my right hon. colleagues.
Now, I ask, if those speeches reified any doubt in his mind.
was it not enough for the right hon. gentleman to ask what
were the real intentions of the Government towards Franco?
What purpose could these allusions answer but that of ex-
citing irritation in the public mind, and thereby producing
a suspicion which might not otherwise have been created ?
And yet this is from a right hon. gentleman who in the
early part of his speech declared he had nothing so much at
heart as a cordial understanding between the two countries.
My right hon. friends who have spoken on the hustings
with regard to what they thought of the Government of
France, did so, no doubt, without intending to disturb in
any way our foreign relations. They had not taken the pre-
caution of consulting their memory in order to make their
speeches, nor had they a commonplace book for the purpose
of noting those speeches. (A laugh.) Incautious words
may therefore have dropped from them, but I am sure that
nothing was further from their intention than to disturb
the good understanding which prevails between this country
and France. (Hear, hear.) While upon this topic I must
allude to the statement of the right hon. gentleman that
the Earl of Aberdeen said nothing more than this—that
foreign politics of this country would be the same as they
had been for the last 30 years. The right hon. gentleman
entirely omitted reference to the fact that Lord Aberdeen
went on to make some observations which, as he has ne-
glected to give them, I will read to the house, as they are
sentiments with which I entirely concur, and contain in
themselves sufficient to make known the general opinions
of the Government with regard to foreign affairs. The
noble lord said, with respect to policy of this country—
"lt has been marked by a respect due to all independent
States, a desire to abstain as much as possible from the in-
ternal affairs of other countries, an assertion of our own hon-
our and interests, and, above all, an earnest desire to secure
the general peace of Europe by all such means as were prac-
ticable and at our disposal. Ido not say that differences may
not have existed, or that sympathies may not have been ex-
cited, on behalf of certain States in their endeavours to pro-
mote constitutional reforms and to obtain constitutional go-
vernment ; but the principle of our policy had always been
to respect the independence, the entire independence, of
other States, great or small, and not to interfere in their in-
ternal
concerns. That will continue to be the case, and I
trust that we shall still retain the friendship and goodwill of
all foreign countries, whatever the nature of their Govern-
ment or Constitution." • sia..
Tat, sir, was a clear announcement of the policy of the
Government, that whatever might be our wishes for the
liberty of other countries, we should not think it fitting
to interfere with their internal Government or Consti-
tution. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I believe that by so conduct-
ing ourselves, and by maintaining peaceable relations
with foreign Governments, we shall better advance the
civilisation of mankind than by any active interference to
force upon them our own form of institutions. (Hear.)
But the right hon. gentleman went on, and, venturing
upon what I think was somewhat dangerous ground for
him, he said that there was a want of principle in the pre-
sent Government. The present Administration is formed
of mon who, in the great contest which was carried on for
ten years, and which was carried on most perseveringly un-
til the beginning of last year by a great party, have agreed
upon the general principles of commerce and finance which
have at length finally triumphed. That was the great
ground of contest during this period, and those who sit in
the present Cabinet have always been found upon the
same side with respect to these questions. But, as to the
right hon. gentleman opposite, after contending from 1842
to 1846 in favour of free trade, and from 184eto 1852 in
favour of protection—(a laugh)—what was the course pur-
sued by his party in 1852 ? First, we had a declaration on
the part of the leader of that party very clearly and de-
cidedly in favour of protection. Then there was the for-
mation of a Ministry in which no man could say what was
the principle adopted. (Hear.) One man represented the
Government as favourable to protection, another repre-
sented them as favourable to free trade, and the head of
that Government, the Earl of Derby, declared that his
opinion was to be formed not by the study of commerce or
finance—not by the writings of political economists—not
by his own observation, or his own very considerable abi-
lities—but by the votes of 1,000,000 electors in the United
Kingdom, who were to make his opinions, and to form his
policy ; and yet the organ of that Government in the
House of Commons comes forward and twits us now for
being without pribciples in forming a Ministry. (Cheers.)
The fact is, Sir, that that party to which the
right hon. gentleman belongs—and I must again remind
him of it—have gone wrong very much because they would
never take the advice which I ventured to give them. (A
laugh.) In 1841 I told them they never would get any-
thing
ke a 63
that. In 1845 I told them that if they would ta .
better than an Bs. duty. They would not accept of
duty and get something n off the burdens of which they
advantageous a compact. They would
they could make so
9 I tokl them that if they would
complained, it would prothaakbly be the last time upon which
not hear of it. But in 184
the Crown and with regard to consti-
ciples with regard to
would always be a very large and
toted authority, they y.
then give up protection and adhere to their general grin
deliberations of the country, .
the councils
t impression upon
fail very soon to make a grea
powerful party in this country, hanvindngthaa great etahteiynfleeuniendcenoent
or they probably would at
tthtahti
eachlveincre.,
They would have given up p
• generalprinciples a most compact
of the Ministry. Well,
ht-hareyerohewtecoeuntlitmolnninoiitnettelarkBe4e9,
have stood upon their they would
have seen them having g
they turned from one opinion
gyheatrh,natnaideewreedshitnouhre npoet_
riod of their history,when
e themselves for protection on the
to another, all declarin,,
party, as we found themetob
tehlrasout
ass in favour of a free-trade
not, and at last voting in
a its otherwise have possessed
resolution, whereas they might
ears to come. I don't know
eve of taking office, then doubtful whether to be for it orng
power both now and for some y
anyof hat I have before
—they have made such bad use
but I would venture
rather no use at all;still
_ more advice—(laughter)
office, without abandoning any prin.
to say, that while out ofh
he .
nciples which theyhave long
ewhvetenhtehrelm:uogrht to give thena
ciples, standing firmly yt
they yet should not come for
plea were successful or not,
too
active
in
displaying their
ward to make themselves
for the peace and welfare of
hostility to that which makesmakes for the pesoo and welfare of
hostility to that which)
They
may depend upon it, al-
held, and not caring at the moment whether those princi-
the country. (Cheers.) T
g tnsufflcient, and that we ought to
we have proposed are no
refoms--they may depend upon
have produced much largter
an struggles of last year,
it that, after the con
io
tress which we propose, the
though the right hon. e tleman thinks the reforms that
whatever may be the
y oPralhort time at least of peaceable
country vrould
convinced that those who say they
of parties ; and I am
stateditions, and that they will bee
will not submit to sit
ei.
things,
and even will take
restless in the present
hich may inadvertently be dropped
progress, withogultadaln
advantage of phrases w 11
yrsOf these great convulsive struggles
the confidence of the people. (Load
not gain to themselves
gentleman has alluded to me, a d
cheers.) The right hon.
which at present I have the honour to hold.
which I en-
to the position .
Von from the full conviction
that al-
-1 occupy that Igo ' " 111 the desire of the country,
iervs.
in order to produce uneasiness in our foreign affairs, svi
tertain that it is rea y
1-, a Whig and another a Con .
e.
htnot to prevent a Mini
divisions oug
n as
Wire-Mena,
those
bleb shall connect as my
lee and
try being formed which
who can agree in their P
Tian
antei ion o f th e
possible together
of carrying on the administr _
.n
what-
hough one man MDT -e
rg• Sir, anything that I can d i
o'nment or
country. (Ch°6-afice, belonging to the Government
that
ever capacity in
he Government, in order tolesre to do.
not belonging to t into effect, it will be ms elf, .
t there are
wish of the country I
who are capable
If may mention mysel ,
(Much cheering)tions of interns
tpo
r.
They are the question
two questions of
"" 1 Hey upon which I take. a
the question of
n of the people, and
tation of
of the educatio n the represen .
amendment i
cannot be pushed on to either
a further
(Hear, hear.)
I others to bring forward,
the people.
myself, or to urge
think are either out
bring forward
those subjects which I
l t meet with a
measures upOn'll not be like y o i
greater interest. than any o he
sent state of the
in the pre
I believe, I d h ld
ful issue. res of that in s ou
success
is lesirab that ineasu
r b rately introdu eel.
country, it , :
hel and earfully and de i e
sentiments I sin
be fully
) weighed,
that in adopting theseit
' of this house or
mean I__
either the great int!,jor
I Yn contribute to
not differing from plo, and if ca
the Pe°
of time, or are such as will
t mass of e lultimately
the grca
time earl contribute anything
measures
in th© mean .
1, h I believe is formed of
carried, and if , s Ministry
se..ic
the country and
men of
to the stability off s
upon the good
measures with due
men both honestly
into effect wise
have done
capable of carrying
my pride and glory to so.
such as those being prepared, are
deliberation, it will
(Loud cheers.)
said, with reference to the main subject
speech—the maintenance of
of the right hon. g© . France--that was a practical qua.
friendly relations svitn .e
untry just no w wa d eeply e
co
tion, and one upon
which th
ht boa, gentleman, in opening his
Mr. COBDEN
concerned. The rig
remarks, laboured to show that lie entertained a belief in

the friendly disposition of France. Now, we could not
shut our eyes to the fact that there had been quite an
opposite opinion entertained out of doors. The general
tone of the press—almost the unanimous tone of the London
press—had been one of great distrust towards the present
Government of France. The right hon. gentleman had said
he did not share in any apprehension of that sort, but when
in power a few months ago, the right hon. gentleman had
proposed a large increase to our arms, and laboured to show
that that increase was not made with reference to the exist-
ing temper of the country towards France, but that it
was a continuation of a system of increase arising out of
the change in the system of steam navigation. Now, he
must call the right hon. gentleman's attention to the fact,
that the increase in the naval force which he proposed was
not an increase of steam machinery, but one of men, and
the transition from the use of sailing vessels to that of
steamers did not imply the necessity of a larger number of
sailors, but quite the contrary. (Hear, hear.) The right
hon. gentleman, therefore, did but give a sanction to the
feeling out of doors by the stop he had taken, and he must
say too that the present Government, while they preached
of peace with France, and of the good intentions of this
country towards it, did not make their conduct correspond
with their professions. Here was the difficulty out of
doors. There was groat mistrust out of the house. Right
hon. gentlemen on both sides said they did not share in
that mistrust, but how did they act ! What were words
spoken in public and lines in a newspaper compared with
the preparation of 12 line-of-battle ships with screws to be
stationed in our Channel, besides a large contingent of
steamers? (Hear, hear.) These were the things which
really endangered our understanding with France. It was
not the newspaper articles, nor the speeches made, but
these preparations for hostilities' which were calculated
to produce uneasiness in the public mind at home and un-
easiness abroad. The right hon. gentleman expressed his
belief that diplomatic services were of great use gene-
rally, and he had enumerated how, during his short tenure
of office, the ambassadors of this country had succeeded
in preventing a rupture in Switzerland, in arranging the
opening of the navigation of the South American rivers, in
negotiating upon the subject of Cuba, and claimed great
credit for diplomacy that it had been so usefully employed.
Now, he (Mr. Cobden) would suggest a new employment
for the diplomacy of this country, and one which, if
adopted, would involve a plan upon which they might
uphold a party. Would the Government devote their di-
plomacy to the putting an end to this system of mutual
rivalry ? (Hear.) Could not our ambassadors—if the state
of affairs in Buenos Ayres, or Cuba, or the United States
were such as to require their interference—exchange a com-
munication with the French Government as to their rivalry
in naval preparations now going on? (Hear.) We paid
very large sums for the support of our diplomatists. Was
it not in their power and within the compass of their ability,
to do something in this way
to preserve our friendly rela-
tions ? He (Mr. Cobden) would undertake to say that in
five minutes he would frame a note to the French Govern-
ment which would answer the purpose, and in which he
would ask that Government if they were prepared to come
to such an understanding as to agree with us in a reduc-
tion of our warlike preparations. Was there anything im-
practicable in such a proposition ? He had not the least
doubt that such a note would be responded to in a manner
which would totally change the feelings of the two coun-
tries towards each other. (Hear, hear.) It must not bo
imagined that the feeling out of doors was such as it had
been assumed to be. Here was an extract from a letter
written a few days ago by a gentleman, "S. G. 0.," who
sometimes signed his name and sometimes his initials.
Speaking with reference to the preparations of the French,
that gentleman said :
" When burglars are about we examine the scullery and
cellar windows, we try the fastenings of our doors, hang up
bells to warn
us, get dogs and police to watch for us, and go
to bed in confidence that we are so prepared against attack
that few are likely to attempt it."
The writer was speaking of our French neighbours—a na-
tion in many respects as civilised as ourselves, and he
treated them as burglars ! That was the argument ; there
was no other attempted ; the writer made a comparison
between guarding our doors against burglars and repelling
attacks from our French neighbours. Well, but right hon.
gentlemen encouraged all this, because they went on pie-
paring as if they expected those attacks. There was no
Tahiti' no Syrian business in hand now, and yet they con-
tinued preparing. What wonder, then, that people out of
doors should go on arguing in this way ? He did not see
why they should not deal with the present question just
as they would upon a question affecting Cuba, or any other
similar matter. If our diplomatists could adjust matters
in the one case' could they not be trusted with a negotia-
tion which would rid this country of the expense and alarm
consequent upon these continued preparations ? He was
charged sometimes with entertaining fanatical views, but
ho put the present case forward upon the most moderate
and humble grounds. He would put his confidence in any
Government which would attempt such a negotiation as
this. He did not require that they should succeed ; they
would not be accountable for want of success ; but he did
ask them to try, and not to go on blindly increasing our
forces as they were doing. If they made a poposal to
France in the conciliatory tone of which he had spoken,
seekins, to come to an explanation by which these mu-
tually°dangerous armaments might bo reduced, and if
France did not respond in the same tone —if she
showed any sinister designs, with a view to take us
by surprise and to profit by our security, he would
vote, if necessary, 100,000,0001. sterling to defend
this country against French invasion. But what he
asked was not to go on increasing armaments which
did not alter the relative forces of the two countries. He
wanted our statesmen to treat this as an arithmetical ques-
tion, and to remember that, if the naval force of France
stood to that of this country in the ratio of 5 to 15, and
that if one-third were taken from each, both countries
would BIM stand in the same relative proportion, and have-I
the same strength as now. (Hear.) He had a right to ex-
pect this policyfrom the present Government, because the
Earl of Aberde had long said these preparations for war
were the great dangers of peace. The Government, by
these increased armaments, were, in fact, rising up a
powerful party who had an interest in keeping the country
in a state of constant irritation, only just short of hostili-
ties. Our increased preparations—our 12 line-of-battle
ships in the Channel, and our powerful fleet in the Medi-
terranean—were of course looked upon with great jealousy
elsewhere. The French Government recollected what they
had suffered in previous years from our fleets, and they
felt that a deep responsibility was thrown upon them to
increase their own armaments. The Journal des Djbats,
ono of the most pacific of the French journals—(hear)—always
favourable to the English alliance and friendly to free trade,
said, upon the 22d of January—
" While the English journals are every day citing, as a
proof of the warlike disposition of our Government, the ex-
traordinary armaments which they allege to be going on in
our ports, and the pretended increase in the number of our
screw steam-ships, we observe that in England they are busily
augmenting their navy, and making considerable additions to
their armaments. We are tempted to believe that the
English press, in declaiming so much about these imaginary
doings in France, have no other object but to divert attention
from the very serious preparations going on in that country."
The tone of our press elicited the following remarks in the
Constitutionnel of Feb. 7 :-
4, When we see with what miserable gossip the terrors of
the English people are excited, we are astonished that their
good sense can be so easily imposed upon. Nothing is too
absurd with some of their journals for increasing this ludic-
rous panic. The sight of an armed brig in the distance, or
even the appearance of a foreign fishing-boat on the horizon,
sinnstantly metamorphosed by the invasionist newspapers
into another Armada, and the English people, resolute and
energetic as they are, who with their own unaided strength
could hold their island home against the united forces of the
whole continent, are credulous enough for the moment to be
imposed upon by these hobgoblin stories."
He had tried to ascertain whether anything was going on
in France to justify this alarm. The noble lord (J. Russell)
said there was not, and that nothing was done but what
France, as a great maritime power, was entitled to do. But
that statement was totally at variance with what had been
going on for the last two or three month. We were told of
all sorts of surprises that awaited us. A Belfast paper, for
example, gave the following statement from an Edinburgh
correspondent
We have received from an Edinburgh correspondent a
letter, dated the 29th ult., in which it is stated that during
the last week a French steamer has been cruising off Berwick,
and every night the men are engaged in taking soundings of
the Tweed, while during the day artists are employed in ma-
king sketches of the coast. Our contemporary adds that this
steamer, having completed its mission at Berwick, has gone to
Newcastle on a similar errand."
Another paragraph of a like sinister character announced
that Mr. Napier, the eminent ship-builder, had received an
order to build six first-class steam-frigates. Then we saw a
letter from Rome, in which we were told that the French
.soldiers there wanted to share the plunder of London upon
the invasion. Now, he never heard any authoritative
contradiction of these rumours. Then there was a rumour
that the Government had been making inquiries of the
railways to know how many troops and how much materiel
could be conveyed to a given point ; and there was a report
that the Government were going to strengthen the forti-
fications at Tilbury Fort. Every Government seemed to
allow these reports to go on without contradiction, and
some of the journals supposed to be in the interest of the
right hon. gentleman and his party were amongst the
worst. They worked up the public feeling, and then the
Government went on increasing our armaments, but pooh-
poohed the press and denounced the journals as incendiaries.
He thought the Government more to blame than the press
for such a course of action. A few weeks ago the Lord-
Lieutenant of the West Riding of Yorkshire (the Earl of
Harewood), when reviewing the militia, made an address
to them, in which he said :
" The time is shortly coming, in my opinion, when every-
body throughout the realm will have cause to be thankful
for your corning forward in defence of their homes, their con-
stitution, and their Queen.
He believed there was a now party to be formed, and that
they wanted a principle. Ho was not going to speak in a
democratic sense, but it was especially important to the
right hon. gentleman and the party ho led that this country
should pursue a course of economy and frugal government.
He did not now speak of free trade, but of the tendency of
the people to emigrate to other countries. That was a
new fact in which those who held the broadest acres
were the most deeply interested. (Cheers.) They had
rivals in other countries—in Canada, in Australia, in
New Zealand, and, above all, in the United States—and
these countries were beginning to absorb our population.
They had seen lately the vast extent to which our popula-
tion could emigrate to other countries, and that, too, at a
time of great prosperity at home. But suppose a reverse
should not take place, Ho would not allow that things
would bo so bad as they had been, but there were causes
which might produce depression and discouragement.
Suppose then a reverse, and that we had a vast emigration
to more favoured countries. Suppose that the emigration
should go on to such an extent as materiallynumber of shoulders that had to bear the public burdens.
to lessen the
Who must be left in mortgage for the pubis burdens ?
The landowners ; and they were the class most interested
in a frugal expenditure. But they went on lavishing
money on the national defences, and spening 15,000,0001.
or 16,000,0001. a-year for warlike expenditure, and yet
they were calling out that the country was defenceless.
The Federal Government of the United States cost
9,000,0001. a-year, and the State Government 4,000,0001.,
so that the Federal and State Government of 24,000,000
of people was carried on, the interest of the debt paid, and
is sinking fund provided, for 13,000,0001. a-year. Austra-
lia and other colonies were without any debt at all, and
almost without taxation, and yet we were going on wast-
ing our money as if there was no end to the wealth we
possessed. The expenditure for warlike purposes was said
to be necessary as an insurance against France ; but, if it
were possible to prevent a portion of this, expenditure, we
were not in a position to despise the saving. It was no ad-
vantage that France was suffering from the same cause,
and that she too was wasting 3,000,0001. or 4,000,0001.
a-year in unnecessary war armaments. That was only in-
creasing the evil, and the people not only of France but of
Germany would run away to other countries unless the old

!ountries

d their iiySt

Three years ago

he brought forward a motion recommending negotiations
for international reductions of force. He hoped now, that

if the House would not undertake to recommend the at-
tempt to be made, the country would follow the advice of
Sir R. Peel, and put such a press-are on members as to
bring the matter to an issue. For himself, he would give
his confidence to no Government that would not make the

attempt, and enter into communication with other govern-
ments with the desire of putting a stop to this increase of
armaments. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM.—I am extremely sorry that the hon•
member for the West Riding has stated that he would give
his confidence to no Government that would not go to
France and the other powers of Europe and America with
a demand that they should disarm.
Mr. 'COBDEN had thought he was not liable to misre-

presentation. What he said was,_ that he would give his

confidence to no Government that would not endeavour to
•

stop the increase of armaments. 'lle would take his stand
upon the motion which he brought forward three years ago

on this subject.
Sir J. GRAHAM.—Not having referral to the terms of
the hon. gentleman's motion, I take the correction as he
_ _

suggests it, and I say that if the Government are not to

enjoy his confidence unless they make a proposal to other
Governments that this disarmament shall take place, and
promise it on their part, and although I am sure that do
hon. gentleman would write a most excellent note, yet my
opinion is deeply seated that, whatever the excellence of
that note, it would not be attended with the success that
ho expects. At all events, when we recollect the slight
occasions which may give rise to unexpected hostilities,
and the effects of such outbreaks, if we are not armed, I
cannot be a party not to make every preparation which the
state of our relations with foreign powers in my humble
judgment may require. (Cheers.) Having said that, I
will add that no member of this house is more attached to
peace and to an economical administration of affairs than
I ever have been and still am. (Hear, hear.) But I must
avow, that being a friend of peace, and entertaining an
opinion that it is most desirable that our armaments and
our expenditure should not be pushed to any extreme, and
that they should be discontinued if possible, I deeply re-
gret the course which the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Dis-
raeli) has pursued. (Hear, hear.) The ' right hon. gentle-
man boasts that ho is the leader of the largest party in
this house, and I have waited to see if any member of
that largo party would rise to sustain the position that he
took, but no ono has done so. The right hon. gentleman
has lately occupied a high position in the councils of his
Sovereign. He knows the delicacy of the question that he
has agitated. lam bound to believe, that in the course be
has taken a spirit of peace is his object, but I think that
he runs great risk of defeating that object. I should not,
however, have risen if he had advertedat great length,
and—with pain I must add—with great bitterness, to
words which he says have fallen from me. The right hon.
gentleman said it was impertinent to suppose that I could
be guilty of an inadvertence, that I speak advisedly, and
after much preparation. The right hon. gentleman is a
great master of words. (A laugh.) I should also say that
he speaks with much previous thought ; and certainly I
should also say not without some preparation. (A
ch
what where those which appeared to be his objects
laanungohn.n)
cadAnatti
twhe hatannwmereenctehmeenrtealof obhjiesctsspewelichi,
anlide
at the close ? I was astonished at the approaches
he began at so great a distance to compass so small an ob-
ject. I was amazed to see his artillery dragged up so high
a hill for so trifling a purpose, and to hear him begin
with Poictiers and Agincourt, and end with the hust-
ings at Carlisle and the Cloth-hall at Halifax. (A
laugh.) I may be permitted to remind the right hon.
gentleman that even very cautions and able speakers are
sometimes guilty of great inadvertence. This present
Parliament will remember when a Minister of the Crown
and the leader of the House of Commons, had, upon a so-
lemn occasion, the duty imposed upon him of making a
funeral oration on the memory of the Duke of Wellington.
I can conceive no greater occasion on which the ablest
speaker might have premeditated. What was the case ?
Our allies had seized the opportunity of sending from
every Court of Furope a representative on that solemn oc-
casion to mark their respect for the memory of that de-
parted hero. The Minister of the Crown and a leader in
this house pronounced the funeral oration to the memory
of the departed duke ; and, if I do not much mistake, in
that speech the representatives of our allies being here-as-
sembled, they were designated as " our scandalous and dis-
comfited allies" in the contest that had taken place, and
this expression, so used, could not, I think, have been al-
together unpremeditated. I think there was another pas-
sage in that speech, that was a branch plucked from the
funeral wreath of a French general, with which the right
hon. gentleman sought to decorate the urn of our illus-
trious commander. The right hon. gentleman, who,
I should say, was an " accustomed" speaker, should
bear this in mind, when he says that public speakers
never make a slip of the tongue. He should recol-
lect the occasion and the speech to which I have
referred, and exercise some charity to those who at a con-
tested election may have used an unguarded expression.
But am I prepared to admit that the right hon. gentleman
has correctly stated what I said ? He says the press is his
escocheon. I must say that the leaders in the Morning
Herald are also his supporters—(a laugh)—and that his
Standard-bearer is to be found in the evening press. (Con-
tinued laughter.) But I deny the words imputed to me on
'the occasion to which he refers. The right hon. gentleman
has asked much about the speech of my right hon. friend
the President of the Board of Control, but he has not asked
ine what were the words used by mo on the occasion to
which I have referred, and ho has inadvertently ascribed
to me words that I did not use. (Hear.) I never called
the present Emperor of France a despot and a tyrant ;
much less did I call the. people of France slaves, or use any
opprobrious expressions with regard to them. I was ad-
dressing a popular assembly. I declared myself friendly
to an extension of the suffrage. I deeply regretted the
bribery and. intimidation which I believe had taken place
at the late election. (Hear, hear.) I said I thought we
ought to remember how great was the liberty we enjoyed
here in England—that on the whole I did not think that in
any country in the world liberty was more secure than in
this, and that, although I could not support universal suf-
frage, and doubted whether secret voting would prevent
intimidation and bribery—the two great objects which it
was intended to secure—yet I was desirous that every man
whose station rendered him independent, and not liable to
be led away or seduced—being in my opinion a person well
qualified to have the suffrage—ought to possess it, I went
on to say, " Beware of those who tell you that your liberties
are not secure without universal suffrage and the ballot ;"
and I illustrated that position by saying, " Close to
your shores there is a nation possessing universal suffrage,
and possessing the ballot," but, so far from calling that na-
tion by an opprobrious epithet, or using towards it a con-
tumelious expression, I said—and I have a distinct recol-
lectionithat the words I now use are the words 1 used then
—I said, " A nation the most polished, a nation celebrated
in arms, in the arts, in literature and in science—the liber-
ties of that people are prostrated under a single man."
These are the words I used on that occasion. (Hear, hear.)
Now, the right hon. gentleman has said that the people
of this country hate coalitions—l think the people of this
country hate misquotations. (Hear, hear.) They love
the truth, and they love to hear the truth spoken. (Hear.)
But if any language used by me is such as to be unworthy
of a British Minister, or such as would be held by this
house to be inconsistent with that character, or with a seat
in this house, then I am not worthy to sit on these benches.
Let the house say so, and I am ready to bow to their deci-
sion. (Hear, hear.) But I must be allowed to say that,
although willing and anxious to maintain the most friendly
relations with France, and though desirous that not one
word should fall from me to excite their enmity, still, if I
am not, either on the hustings or in this Mne, to say that
which my heart dictates, and my mind and conscience dic-
tate, then certainly I am not fit to be a Minister, or to sit
in the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) lam still a
member of a free community—a community that dares to
defend the truth, and loves the truth, and which is still
the guardian of this happy country, which, after all, is the
last refuge of the liberties of Europe. (Cheers.)
Mr. M. GIBSON regretted that the right hon. gentle-
man who had just spoken had not given the slightest inti-
mation that an attempt would be made, in accordance with
*hat had fallen from his hon. friend the member for the
West Riding, to bring about, in conjunction with France,
a reduction of armaments. He always understood that the
followers of the Late Sir R. Peel, while they had no defi-
nite policy, were willing at least to carry out that line of
policy which they believed Sir R. Peel himself would have
carried out had he been alive. Now, in 1841, that states-
man laid down in the House of Commons the very propo-
sition which the hon. member for the West Riding had
alluded to that evening. (The right hon. gentleman here
quoted from a speech of Sir R. Peel in 1841, in which lie
contended that the time had come when the powerful
countries of Europe should reduce their military arma-
ments, and be prepared to declare that them was no longer
any necessity for maintaining such enormous establish-
ments, and in which he deprecated the practice of one
Country increasing its military and naval-ferce merely be-
cause it was done by another.) The same reasons for re-
ducing the national armaments existed now as then, and
the fact still was, that the nations increased or reduced
their establishments with reference to each other. (Hear.)
Nobody, he believed, denied that systematic endeavours
had been made to alarm the public mind in this country,
eeneepaycopnathfrue
eaatahethtil
ieni
arrivednrom
everybody.h—i
so as to get a more ready assent to our naval and military
and— a
anudt h theort onlyy to p fuatu la tn
endhe foundt oin-
terested with Government hitherto was, that they did not make
Wrested and ignorant clamours, and restore equanimity to
preparations—(hear,
lhrnf t Itvo
if
s emigrationwwe
casbiateybqtaouhnt
aetdost
question
ane
self-defence.
opfaeiisnnt
goctneh io.enTs t
washhi
Then
aintcrease of defences and of armaments. Who could tell when
becoming a point of great importance to the employers of
labour in this country, and to hon. gentlemen opposite as
well as to others. Their labourers would leave this country
if they refused to develope important branches of industry,
and if they did so, wages in the agricultural districts would
be materially increased, and the difficulties of competing
tt(
pointh' eeTp
The
en:
with foreign grain-growers, said to exist, would be rendered
much greater. He would say, therefore, employ their sur-
plus income over expenditure rather in the repeal of taxes
that affected the employment of labour than in the increase
of our armaments. It was against the unlimited and inde-
finite increase of those armaments that he now spoke. It
was a common ruse to misrepresent the views of economists
on this point, and to say they were for the abolition of all
armaments and in favour of non-resistance. But what they
contended against was that sort of indefinite arming which
was going on, one country rivalling another without s,
prospect of arriving at a conclusion. The right hon. gen-
tlemanan-
(Mr. Disraeli) had introduced into his speeehna.aea
deal of matter of a political character, not bearing all
on the relations between this country and France. He en-
tirely agreed with those who condemned the use of • tating language towards France, and those constant irri-
tating
which they heard on the mode in which Francecoin-
should be governed. (Hear, hear.) It was the conceit of
Englishmen that they believed no country
prosperous unless it enjoyed English • was happy or
institutions (Hear,
hear.) Somo wont so far as to make it necessary •rl
foreign countries should have the English religion. also that
He wished that English statesmen, instead of(Hear,)
heated speeches on tyranny abroad, would ratherf deliveringa
feeling for liberty at home. (Hear, hear.) He elleeura"e
see snore attention paid to our domestic.) wanted To
though it might be a cheap way of liberties ; and,
getting
inveigh against despotism in or. popularity to
con-
fessed he would rather see men advocatingelcountries, he
and showing to foreign countries that liberty at home,
confidence in our own people to we had sufficient
they were entitled to--a course
ive them all the rights
liberty abroad than all the s that would do mo for
(Hear, hoar.) Ho had observed, however,
tht could boreado.
were most ardent on the that those who
platform in
liberty abroad were exceedingly • • declaiming about
ngcdhha
al.e
positiona r
proposal to give the people liberty timid when t h there was any
it was somewhat disingenuousa home. He thought
about France antil to press these arguments
other countries as against
arguments the

adoption of the ballot in this country. (Hens, hear.) The
ight hen. gentleman had chosen to insinuate that we had
a Conservative Government and a Conservative Opposition;
and that those who were called Radicals had merged into a
species of Conservatism. He could only say for himself
that he never was a party man, entering into combinations
to to oppose or support any existing Government, ndh
should decline to express any opinion on the present t
Ad-
ministration till he saw their measures of reform. If it
was true that four hours of a Cabinet Council were occu-
pied on the Turkish Empire, all he would say was that he
thought they would have been better employed in consi-
dering the provisions of the Reform Bill. (Hear, hear.)
Though he admitted there were reasons for postponement,
he could have wished to see a measure of reform submitted
to the house during the present session, in order that it
might have been considered by the country previous
to being brought forward for legislation in the Par-
liament of 1854. (Hear, hear.) He gave credit to the
Government for good intentions with respect to the mea-
sure of reform, and he was sure they would not bring in
any measure on such a subject that would not be of a com-
prehensive character, calculated to settle that question for
at least some fair period of time. (Hear.) And he did
hope that the Government, having, as, they had heard, so
much approved the freedom of the press, would not forget
that, though we did enjoy considerable freedom in this
country in reference to our newspapers and public press,
we fell far short, nevertheless, of entire and absolute free-
dom. He hoped that the somewhat heated expressions of
feeling with reference to the liberty of the press might be
taken as indications on the part of the Government that
they would emancipate the press in this country, untax it,
and give tho people the advantage of a full, free, and cheap
dissemination of knowledge. (Hear.) He was sanguine
that the Government would adopt that as part of their
policy, because they had expressed themselves favourable
to the cause of education, and he knew no agency so fa-
vourable to education as a cheap press, diffusing through
all classes of the community cheap information. In conclu-
. siou, he would observe, that though the right hon. gentle-
man (Mr. Disraeli) might say they had a Conservative Go-
vernment and a Conservative Opposition, he would find
the Liberal party and the liberal feeling of the country
truly represented, and that the Liberal members of that
house would be true to their principles, though they would
not embark in any needless or vexatious proceedings.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BAILLIE said that" the house was now met for the
purpose of voting away the public money, and a fair oppor-
tunity consequently arose of obtaining information as to
the opinions of the Cabinet on many most important ques-
tions. After alluding to the sentiments expressed by dif-
ferent members of the Government on the subject of Par-
liamentary Reform and the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill, he
said that he believed that it would require more than all the
high character of the associates of the late Sir Robert Peel
to convince the people of this country that the coalition
which they had now formed had not been effected at the
sacrifice of those principles which Sir Robert Peel uni-
formly advocated.
Lord D. STUART said that he felt indebted to the right
hon. gentlemen who had occasioned this debate, inasmuch
as it called forth from both sides of the house expressions
of the most earnest desire to continue on good terms with
the Government and nation of France. (Hear, hear.)
With respect to the comments made by the public press on
what took place in neighbouring countries, he believed that
the press would abdicate its high functions if it were not to
adopt such a course, and he had always thought that the
censures directed against it by the noble lord the Secretary
for Foreign Affairs and others were uncalled for. He con-
curred in the opinion expressed by the noble lord the Sec-
retary for Foreign Affairs, that, although the French people
might have surrendered their liberties for a time, yet that,
enlightened as they were, they would not long suffer them.
selves to be deprived of their institutions, without the full
enjoyment of which he believed no nation could long con-
tinue to he happy and prosperous.
Mr. HUME thought that the house was about to pro-
ceed in voting the estimates upon a rule contrary to com-
mon sense. The were about to vote six or seven millions
for navy expenses, and he contended that the house ought
first to know by what means that sum was to be paid.
He recollected that when the right hon. gentleman the
member for Buckingham proposed to go into committee
on the tea duties the present Chancellor of the Exchequer
told him that ho could not reduce one single farthing of
taxation until they knew whether they had the means of
supporting that reduction of taxation. Now the income
tax would expire in April next, and it was desirable to
know before voting the estimates what the Government
meant to do with reference to the renewal or discontinu-
ance of that tax. There was now a surplus of 2,500,000/. ;
but if the income tax were allowed to expire, there would
be a deficiency of upwards of 3,000,0001. Under these
circumstances, he wished to know why the house should
not act upon the principle which the right honourable
gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had himself
laid down, no longer ago than last December, when the
right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) was propos-
ing to go into committee upon the tea duties. Mr. Glad-
stone then said :
" I wish to call the attention of the house to a subject
which appears to be of the utmost importance, of constitu-
tional importance. We are going to make provision for the
financial year that commences on )he sth of April, 1853.
Now, when we are considering the provision for that year,
the first thing which necessarily strikes the mind of every
man is, that on the sth of April the income tax, from which
we derive more than one-tenth of our gross revenue, will
have ceased, legally to exist ; and I put it strongly to the
house and to the Government, that the first duty of this house
in reference to the provision for that year must necessarily be
to consider what course we are to purse with regard to the
income tax."
Now what was good for the goose was also good for the
gander ; and what the right hon. gentleman the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer) insisted at that time ought to be done
by the late Government, he was now bound to do himself.
(Hear.) But the right hon. gentleman added. :
" Even were there no other question as to the income tax than
that of its continuance, I should say that the duty of the
house, iu the discharge of its great functions, the providing
the ways and means for the public service, is to proceed to
consider the question of the continuance of the income tax,
before it deals with any minor question whatever."
The noble lord the Foreign Secretary also took the same
view, for he said—
" I think that there is great force in what the right hon.
gentleman the member for the University of Oxford (Mr.
Gladstone) said as to the necessity of taking both the income
tax and the house tax, before we are asked to concur 'in any
resolution with respect to the relief of taxes."
Nor was this all ' • for the right hon. baronet the President
of the Board of Control (Sir Charles Wood) said it was
essential for the safety of the public credit that this course
should be taken. Thus three great authorities were then
in favour of the course which he (Mr. Hume) recommended.
It was a question of the utmost importance to the country
"how the income tax was to be levied. They ought to have
some information upon this subject, but most certainly the
house ought not to be called upon to vote any money until
they were informed whether it was intended to continue
the income tax or not. The Government themselves had,
when on the other side of the house, stated their opinion
that they saw no possibility of altering the income tax, yet
now they refused to say anything more about it than that
it would be brought on after Easter—that was not until
after the tax had expired. If no answer was given to his
question, he should take the sense of the house upon it.
He begged to move that the debate be adjourned.
Lord PALMERSTON hoped the hon. gentleman would
not press his motion to a division. His right hon. friend
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had already stated that
the time must shortly come when he must make his finan-
cial statement, and then it would be his duty to state what
were the intentions of the Government with respect to the
income tax.
Mr. HUME was perfectly aware of the anomalous situa-
tion in which the Government was placed, but the househad been told by the Government that the income tax was
to be renewed, and that it could not be altered. He
thought, therefore, he was justified in moving that the
debate be adjourned.
The SPEAKER said the hon. member could not move
the adjournment of the debate ; he must move that the
Committee of Supply be postponed.
Mr. HUME said he objected to going into committee
now, and would therefore move that it be postponed for a
week.
The house divided ;
For the original motion (that the Speaker
leave the chair) ▪
... 164
Against it 28
Majority •
—136
The house then went into
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that in laying on the table
of the house the estimates for the ensuing year, he was
happy to say that he was able to ask the committee to as-
sent to a vote which did not propose any increase either in
the force of seamen or of marines. That vote he now pro-
posed exactly upon the ground on which the supplemental
vote was proposed to the house in November last. The
principles then stated by her Majesty's late advisers in
proposing that estimate 'were- the precise grounds upon
which he recommended to the house, for the ensuing year,
the maintenance of the exact force then proposed. It was
not recommended by him to the house upon any ground
approaching to that of a hostile or distrustful character
towards any foreign power whatever. He pressed the vote
upon grounds which were not new to the Parliament of
this country, but which had been sustained by the reports
of two committees to which the question of the estimates
had been referred. If tho honk) would allow him he
would refer, first of all, to the report of the finance
com-
mittee appointed in the year 1828, and subsequently to the
report of the committee over which his noble friend the
member for Totnes (Lord Seymour) presided in the year
1848. The report of the finance committee of 1828 used
words to this effect :—That it was their opinion that the
establishments of this country should be regulated, not
with reference to the unusual circumstances of the late
war, or the probability of being again called upon to make
a similar exertion, but rather with reference to the policy
of maintaining our defences, and relying upon our navy
for protection against foreignThienvYlasliogn and for the
security of our commerce.
mittee of 1848 adhered to that policy,ert and
the
we
cohmad-
acted upon it up to the present time. This policy, th
stated, would be admitted to be most congenial to the ha-
ey
bits and feelings of our countrymen, who had for a length
of time been accustomed to look upon our naval power as
the right arm of our strength, and the great support of our
national independence. Now, that was the opinion of two
committees of that house, made at a long interval of time,
asserted in the strongest terms by thei finance committee of
1828, and subsequently adopted by the committee
which his noble friend had presided. It had been well
ascertained with respect to the navy, and still more with
respect to the other branch of our defences, that the num-
ber of men ruled the amount of the money voted on all the
other branches of those estimates ; and assuming that the
circumstances of the present moment were the same as
those which induced her Majesty's late advisers in Novem-
ber to propose an increase of 5,000 seamen and 1,500 ma-
rines to the force voted in the earlier part of last year—
assuming these circumstances to be the same, he thought,
also, he was right in assuming that this house, retaining its
opinion that they were right when they voted the increase
in November, would not now be prepared to reverse that
decision. (Hear, hear.) Taking that assumption, there-
fore, as the fact, and ho believed it wad not adverse to the
opinion expressed by the house on former occasions, he (Sir
J. Graham) would next revert to the several items which
went to form the estimate that he should proceed to lay be-
fore them. The increase of the whole estimate, as compared
with the estimate of the last year, the supplimentary esti'
mate taken in November inclusive, amounted to 459,0001.,
the increase being 299,0001. That sum wasirnade up of the
following items—viz , 191,0001. increase in the vote for
the par of the seamen and marines ; 70,0001. increase on
the vote for victuals ; and 140,0001. increase on the vote
for naval stores of every description. And at this point
he would do justice to his right hon. friend the member

far Portsmouth, who proceeded him (Sir J. Graham) bn
iha office which he then held. His right hon. friend- and
he had been members of the committee in 1848, and they
had generally concurred in opinion on the subject in quo!
tion, but he (Sir J. Graham) was not aware until he'went
to the Admiralty how much had been effected by
his right hon. Mena in carrying into practical operation
the recommendations of that committee. (Hear.) 0°
house was then about to vote for the payment and victual-
ling of 45,500 seamen and marines. In 1847-8, when hi
(Sir J. Graham's) right hon. friend was in office—or rather
the year preceding—the sum voted for the navy estimates,
including the Post-office packet service, was 5,060,0°1';
the number of seamen and marines voted on that occasion
being 41,500. The sum then voted was, exclusive of the
packet service, 950,0001. But yet the present vote was for
45,500 men, or 4,000 more than that vote, and the saving
to the country on the year would nearly approach
teonl
million. His right hon. friend had stated, and sta(
truly, on a former occasion, that he had endeavoured to
do as much as he could, in conformity with the recommen-
dations of the committee, but that he had received veil.
little credit for his efforts. He (Sir J. Graham) felt haPPI
on the present occasion to bear testimony to the efficacy
those efforts. He was bound, also, in justice to his ra°,,rs,,
immediate predecessor in office, to state that he found the
naval department in all its branches in admirable order,
the storesfull, the requisite arrangements made, and °ve l.
thing in a state of completeness or activity. He asked thei
vo
house, therefore, not to vote any additional men beyat
the number taken in the supplementary vote of last N?"
vember, but simply to continue the number in that ie
for the year. It was due to his predecessors to state all the
facts reflecting credit on their administration of the offices;
which had come to his knowledge. The greater portion 0,1;
the savings that had been made was effected on the en'
departments of the navy, leaving thus the military Sir
partment unimpaired in point of efficiency. Ile ‘4..111
J. Graham) had thought it possible to effect even s"-.„
greater reductions in that department, and even a°"
lie did not at all despair on that point. But the hone°
would bear in mind that the force of the navy had WI
increased 6,500 men without any additional expense, a2d.
that a great economical arrangement will have been effeen
The increase in the pay of the men, namely, 193,0001., wt,
entirely on the number of additional men voted.
regarded the increase of 70,0001. on the vote for victualling
and provisioning the navy, he had to state, in explanation,
that almost every article which entered into the consurer
tion of the sailor had risen, as compared with the last tW°t
years, say 1851-52, fully 10 per cent. at the least, in the
.S,Os
of each article. The only other vote before him was '4°'
10, in the cost of building, repairs of ships and steamers
and for the stores and other principal articles provided , i
the naval dockyards of the country. In that vote there
was, as he had stated, an increase of 140,0001. ; but thl
was also an increase on the price of all the articles which
included of a proportionate character, which went satisfa_e;
torily to account for it. For example, English oak
risen in price 3 per cent., hemp had risen 9i per cent,
per 24 per cent., iron 12 per cent., chain cables 17 per cen.„.'r
copper and brass articles 20 per cent., and pig iron 60 1-„,
cent. But there was also one other cause for the increas
in the amount of this vote, which he should state to the
house. In the supplemental estimate of the last Govern'
meat there was a vote of 100,0001. for steam mo,chinerP
Without entering into any undue rivalry with fel:
powers on the point, it was absolutely necessary for
maintenance, he would not say of the supremacy, but of .tr
position of this country, that those great changes and
provements in steam navigation which were daily talral
place should not be neglected. In France, in Russia, an
in America, great progress was making in the Spplicati°,..
of steam to navigation and in the perfection of steam la
chinery for that purpose ; and it was requisite, therefore,
that there should be provision for changing and repairs
as well as replacing steam machinery in the navy, 3t
least expense. A provision had been made, as he had alto, t
stated, for this purpose, in the supplementary vote of ,55,,
year, but it had been found necessary by her Matieli.
Government to increase the amount of 140,70,
by a sum of 100,000/. The whole increase then, in gr°.-00
amounted, as he had said, to 400,000/. ; the reduell,
amounted to about 60,0001. Of this the reduction la 'la
scientific, branch might be estimated at 15,000/. ; thatlf,
the half-pay (naval), 24,000/. ; that in the military 1e
1a;
pay, 20,000/. ; and that in the civil department
With respect to the scientific branch, the cost of the LT,'
drographer's department in respect to naval surveys 70
been increasing for years ; but as there was a large air of
of these surveys at present unpublished, in consequence,. the
the care and attention of the able officer at the head °Lot
department, and his anxiety to revise every one of f-it
personally, he (Sir J. Graham) therefore had thong'''. is
would be perfectly consistent with nautical objeca
that the surveying department of the present year shoal
Ao
be restricted until that arrear was reduced. In the be isr
branch—the hydrog,raphic—was now placed the harino
department ; the Admiralty deeming that it weal "01
more effectually administered if placed under the c°ll' it
of the hydrographer. He (Sir J. Graham) thought d„c
right, however, to ask the vote for six months instes
for twelve, in order that there might be an epportuai•;,
for making the necessary arrangements. If he remained lif
office he would give the subject his best attention, an e 1
he did not he was still satisfied that his successors tr,tre
find its adoption of advantage to the public service. 'lna
was also a small saving arising out of an alteration r.
another department connected with this branch of the ther
vice,-namely, in the adjustment of compasses ;
saving would accrue from a fresh arrangement with reskiiie
to the school in Portsmouth Dockyard, established for of
education of naval apprentices in the higher branche°_,st
nautical science. It had been found that this school, ;•11,„
the country 1,2001. a-year, while only four approach
attended it ; this he considered toolemgrffaeesdatuettrolcsaeratecolsodusrt,grlenrsoalinobe,,
small number. There was a highly
an excellent mathematician, at the head of this est,a,c,ol,
meat, and as it was proposed to suppress the sul'ent
it had been deemed right to enter into an arrangew.ae
by which his services would bo made available;
dock,
was, therefore, to take the charge in chief of all tor 10°
yard schools ; and as it was decided that a still grciain ad, at
should be made of the Greenwich school was„,- naval
present,service nitamwealsy,inttoenstuiepdpliyh
astchtoohi
called upon to decide on the qualifications
Further, it was doubted whether tlreturus of the °till'.
tion received by the young gentlemen who served ".
.7-Age
shipmen on board of men-of-war were sufficiently Illabel.
gated ; and it was therefore proposed that they sb°l4.,:nuld
laid hereafter before this gentlemen, and that be sr ,re
gentleman
of these masters'
have the power of supervision over the reports and I.
ceedings of the various schoolmasters. Tho Board of Pfd'
miralty, however, the house might rest assured, wore 11,„
disposed to effect any saving in the branch in question cot
consistent with the promotion and progress of edlie4or
both on shipboard and. in the dockyards under their," tee
tion. The other savings arose from the diminution la re
military pensions, caused by death, without any fres.:es.
pointraents. It was the same with the civil enec,l
Though the reductions that were made, and inaxill_Vaale
"
to superannuation, the charge upon the whole fund ge
be found to be in a state of progressive diminution. 00
(Sir J. Graham) knew not if any further explanati°4s to
his part were necessary. Perhaps, however, he out es'
state that no new works were contemplated, with,. tkprie
ception of one vote for the construction of steinl'ill-tooeir
at Keyham (as the right hbn. gentleman was unders,..4etes"
He had deemed it to be his duty to institute the ft'iraor
inquiries into this subject, and he had accordiaW t
monad a committee, composed of some of the rat bola
perienced officers in the steam-packet service, i° ;o'er;
were adjoined the surveyor of the navy and the,- 0.1..
intendent of the dockyard at Plymouth ; andt",,st
put to them the question how 70,0001. could be "e'•giol'
most advantageously expended in rendering the esloe,'°
works of that natureavailable. It appeared that tberoea
only one great naval power which was employed in srbiio;
a large sum of money upon an increase of these es9'o
ments—namely, the United States of America. Pfort bel
in his hand the report of the Secretary of the NieO Atlfe'{,,
United States in 1852-53, allthe propositions in 'owl," per.",
of a marked character. The first related to the nar.7t
naval cadets to be admitted each year. By a 11,1501.,ce:
provision tne committee of the House of Comae:74lP fep
commended that only 100 should be admitted es t
and his right hon. friend the member for Port °,7,ta
700,.°4:1
not only rigidly complied with this recommends
had even reduced the number from 100 to 75. Osoleaele
States admitted only 62, the.difference being 13. ree,,l)./;
recommendation in that report was equally roe r;
By a vote of Congress corporal punishment ",°::
abolished in the United States navy ; but the whieqeo Aso
pline of the service was found to be so relaxed, aa,"4o be if
comfort arising from that relaxation was fours a ceesrl
great, that the opinion of the sailors themselves w.aiaiel,;
unanimous for the restoration of that form of punts
This recommendation was one of the strongest Pa'-ibe
the report. Hear.) The next recommendation len,terie,,,
port was in favour of the establishment of steany's"to
lThe right hon. baronet read the passage, which was
effect that this mode of supplying
steam nrachinoey
more economical ; that it ensured better work, epeeer,
it rendered the adoption of improvements ro°7,010!„.06
as well as more certain.] He (Sir J. Graham),
felt bound to state that he differed in s°°;,:e otfep
from this conclusion ; for while he had been alwsJoarY,
nion that such establishments were absolutely neced thsu
effecting alterations and repairs, he had also.„.be`was (ld
large new works should be done by-contract. lie oatb
satisfied that the factories in existence at Port'tht be„eel
I"
Plymouth were requisite for reparations that ' all it
quired in steam machinery, but with regard leo, tli At
works of an extensive character, he was of 0Pi,,,,, °
nitvaet'
should always be done as much as possible by c 1": f,4
present the most expensive part of the machina',„ oclai air
ships—the boilers—were made in the Queen's Y ia°, of
had given directions for obtaining the cost of Flgeoolo
facture, debiting each with a fair share a the .00 el, of
the yard, the officers, and plant, and in the of,fro
present year he should be able to ascertain the "L.oti pro'
cost between these and those made under conti-e bad ree,
Secretary of the Treasury of the United SO° of sell!::es!t
posed an increase for this year in the nurabc"
iofora,
but not so large an increase in the number as
the 1)11°"'
proposed to make here. Then with respect t° (1001;1 oil
tion for increased cost of our dockyards. Oe eroll°!,0
it would be recollected, were large and naul iocref;
without any undue jealousy there might betocuiryareoesof
the expense. The area of the five principal " Shee„, le t
comparatively small. The superficial ares,°_l4,o
Chatham, Portsmouth, Plymouth, and PenlD'otberla!e"
than the area of Cherbourg. There was onerLe inc
which he must avert to—it had relation to "„i to,'
usia- tts' o'
vote for the packet service. It was vy ies e
this service under notice at the time the °I! 100 cel"
Jei' abe
were proposed. There were generally b.-- ao „ass
tertained at any increase to the naval eervicea been
tainly felt surprised at the large sum which b° SPI!ooa
in the previous estimates, that sum amounting t at P
Government, however, had thought it right r'''t °ow
to bring forward that estimate until the sub.ifteeape
gone careful investigation. There was a courra"' boar°. cola'
to investigate the expenditure of particular,. TVA as"
that committee the question had been referre"Goort;oer
mittee was presided over by the Postinastft;ofri
sisted by the hon. member for Hertford, a the
ley, an experienced gentleman, who was under,aterii.ipea.
tliate direction of the Chancellor of the Exc",tolitt tb"
whole question of the Post-office and packet F' co au ae°'
dlt 1 in `lpel
was under the view of that committee ; vote ,
intention of Government to bring forward " opeo",' rte„r
tion until the report of the committee was Ptrbia
ftalicethboeuroserewinlhraetcoolflectthethreerpeowrtas alreadY coin lie larkir
composed of two naval and two artiollferYan°li:veder'n. 1;1111 retiv°L/13,11;
vote for the packet service had been deter,Tes of c°•derae.
the double supposition that further faciliti co% rect
cation with our remote colonies ought to Vor
the aid of steam, and this was one e'r°anoother
iwa3hsiecchl
hlaergweasinscorreryase, But there NY3BI
It was believed thatt°thessaey
would be available for belligerent p
toot m that ai,d
question had been decided by conVendun 00 0
naval officers, who had come to the core b age 5.450
expectations were fallacious. There w),.d. to wart', of to
t
70 packets, but only 16 could be converitti theata
~ftips„ci
pwacakse tuso, nli
at a considerable expense. This be inq
very `fit
case, it became the duty of Governmece tb;Viiew-
reconsider the whole of the circumstan_.°
woo
he would not now ask for the vote. J'a