The Sun.
London, England, 1854-07-14 00:00:00

BLOCKADE OF THE WHITE SEA.

Mr. HUTT then asked what were the intentions of
Government with respect to the blockade of Archangel and
the other ports in the White Sea.
Sir J. GRAHAM said by arrangement with the French
Government orders had beon transmitted to institute a
blockade of the ports in the White Sea to commence on
the Ist of August.

ENFORCEMENT OF CONTRACTS BY NEUTRALS.
Mr. It. PHILLIMORE asked the First Lord of the Ad-
miralty whether her Majesty's Government had received
any information upon the subject of the Tribunal of Com-
merce at Hamburg having proceeded to enforce the fulfil-
ment of contracts entered into by neutrals before the
breaking out of the war, for the purchase and carrying
away of goods from the ports of Russia at present block-
aded by the allied fleets of Great Britain and France.
Sir J. GRAHAM said since the hon. and learned gentle-
man gave notice of this question he had had no opportu-
nity of askin,, his noble friend the Secretary for Foreign
Affairs whether he *was cognisant of any such judgment.
Ho (Sir J. Graham) had no official knowledge of it what-
ever. He had seen a report of it in the newspapers, but
he confessed he did not believe it. If any such decision
had been come to, it would appear to him to e entirely
inconsistent with justice, and utterly subversive of the
law of nations.
CRIME AND OUTRAGE ACT.
Mr. I. BUTT asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland,
whether it is the intention of the Government to permit
the Crime and Outrage Act, to expire on the Met day of
August, or to bring iu any bill to continue the provisions
relating to arms contained in that act, or to renew the
act.
Sir J. YOUNG—Yes.
CLOTHING IN THE ARMY.
Col. KNOX asked the Secretary at War whether the
change of clothing in the army was decided upon, because
if it was made known the information might save officers
who had just rec3ivwlBitr said the
theirconcn.
issaionn,lnsgooalwllannm gallant
officerre texpense.ha than
hadb e
Mr. S. HERE
the advantage of him, he appeared to
did. The new patterns for clothing were to be submitted
to her Majesty to-morrow.
LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND) BILL.
The house then went into committee on this bill.
Ou clause 1,
Mr. NAPIER said he wished to make some observations
in reply to the extraordinary statements of the right hon.
baronet the Secretary for Ireland, on Tuesday, in refer-

ence to this bill, and the Leasing Powers Bill, and which
he had not at the time an opportunity of replying to.
Those observations took him entirely by surprise, and it
was with the greatest pain that he felt bound to ask the
attention of the committee to the subject on which he was
now about to tt,idres, them. The right hon. and learned
gentleman then proceeded to read Sir John Young's speech
on the occasion in question, to the effect that if these had
been Government bills they would not have been proposed
at this late period of the session; that nothing could be
fairer or more courteous to him (Mr. Napier) than the
course taken by the Government on these bills ; that these
bills had passed the House of Lords, but the Tenants'
Compensation Bill, for which he was responsible, had not
passed that house ; that these bills were good bills of them-
selves, but that without the Tenants' Compensation Bill
he did not think they would be acceptable as a code of
landlord and tenant law. The right hon. and learned gen-
tletnan proceeded to say, that it was perfectly true that he
had been treated by the Government up to the end of
Tuesday with the greatest courtesy, and till then he had
not a doubt on his mind that he was acting in full co-
operation with Government, and that they would use every
effort to pass the bills. The rigs: t hon. baronet said
these were not Government bills, and as the Tenants' Com-
pensation Bill had not passed the House of Lords, he
did not think it right to go on with these bills. Now, in
the House of Lords, within an hour after the right hon.
baronet had made that statement, the Duke of Newcastle
said it had been always intended to persevere with the two
bills, if the circumstances of the session permitted, but at
the present period of the session, considering the lengthened
discussions which would probably take place upon them, it
was quite impossible to go on with them ; and that though
these bills were not Government bills, Government had
adopted them in their substance. Nothing could be
more fair than that. If the right honourable baronet had
said that from opposition raised which he could not put
dow, the bills could not be proceeded with, of course he
(Mr. Napier) could have had nothing to say, but the right
hon. baronet's ground was that the Tenants' Compensation
Bill which passed this house last session, had not passed the
House of Lords this session. He had been in communica-
tion in the most friendly spirit with the members of the Go-
vernment respecting these bills, and he understood the in-
tention of the Government was to pass the bills as they had
come from the select committee of the House of Lords, but
he never had the slightest intimation that the Tenants'
Compensation Bill having been rejected by the select com-
mittee of the House of Lords was to be a reason for not
pressing forward these bills. That bill had been unani-
mously rejected, but the other two had been adopted as a
fair settlement of the question. They were sent down to
this house by their lordships, and he could not possibly have
thought from anything that has fallen from the Government
that they had not had throughout a real and bona fide in-
tention of passing them; but now, at the last hour, and for
the very first time he was told, that in consequence of the
rejection of the Tenants' Compensation Bill, the other two
bills ought not to be proceeded with. Ho could easily have
understood the case of the Government if they had from the
outset declared that the third bill was, in their judgment,
necessary to a fair settlement of the question ; but they had
never given him the slightest intimation that such was
their view. (Hear.) Mr. Napier then copiously quoted
Hansard, to show that the bills had been unreservedly ac-
cepted by the Government. Nay, even on Tuesday night,
he had received a letter from the right hon. baronet, con-
taining a suggestion regarding one of them. (Hear, hear.)
He would submit these facts to the house and the country,
and leave them to judge whether he had been fairly treated.
He would appeal to the honourable feeling of the noble
lord himself (Lord J. Russell) whether he had deserved
the manner in which'his exertions had been met? (Hear,
hear.) There had been no time or labour which he had
not freely given to the bill. Nay, if he had been the Go-
vernment's own law officer, he could have done no more.

'Cheers.) He knew that the question was one of the most
mportant that could be conceived for the best interests of
Ireland, and that almost any settlement of it would have
been better than leaving it as it was. Yet after years of
labour, and after having been led to believe that the Go-
vernment really intended to pass the biils, he had now tho
mortification of perceiving that things were now in a
worse position than they had ever been in before. (Hear.)
Ho owned that he had expected that a high-minded go-
vernment, and that high-minded gentlemen in every part
of the house, would have rallied round a measure which
the cabinet had acknowledged as their own. He would
freely admit that it was probably not all they would have
desired. Nay, it was not at all that he could have wished
himself. He would have gone much further if he had
been able . but in a representative assembly, and under a
constitutional government, consisting of two houses, it
would be presumption for any individual to expect to
carry out all his views. Yet looking at the difficulties
of the case, he did think that the bills would have been
a fair settlement of the case ,• and of one thing he
was sure, that but for the singular ability of the Duke of
Argyll, who presided over the committee of the Lords, no
measure so liberal would have been obtained. But ro
ference had been made to what occurred on Tuesday. Well'
he owned that what had occurred was exactly what he'
had expected. He could not expect that the measure would
have been accepted by all the Irish members. On the
contrary, the settlement of the question would be ruin to
some people. (Laughter.) But he had found on the paper
so long ago as the 15th June a notice given by the learned
serjeant (Serjeant Shee) of an obstructive character; and
the right hon. baronet had therefore no right to advance
the opposition of the learned serjeant as an argument for
the course he had taken. As for the debate on Tuesday,
ho could really have thought that he had been sitting all
the morning at Nisi Prins. He heard a good deal of abuse
from the learned serjeant, but to that he was accustomed.
Indeed, he might say with Dean Swift—
" When dunces on me are satyric,
I take it all for panegyric."
(Loud laughter.) The learned serjeant said he would not
trust him out of his sight. Nor did he desire him to do so.
He had no sympathy with the learned serjeant, and did
not wish for his confidence. (Hear.) Something, again,
had been said regarding the long list of amendments he
had put upon the paper. But those amendments were,
with a single exception, all mere matters of verbal aecn-
racy. He had asked to have the bill re-committed pro
forma, in order to make those corrections ; bat that rea-
sonable proposal had been refused. Then it was that he
had sat down and spent nearly a whole day in making the
list which had been complained of. As for the amendments
themselves, if they had been really objected to, he should
not have cared about pressing them. He must really
protest against the learned serjeant turning on him
and charging him with having taken up the question
from mere political motives. He had done so at the
request of the two right hon. boronets opposite (Sir J.
Graham and Sir J. Young) ; and he did not think
that he was justly open to any personal imputations
on the score of his connection with these bills. (Hear.)
With regard to the bills themselves, he believed as a mat-
ter of principle, tenants were entitled to compensation for
any improvements they had made, if the improvements
could be ascertained and valued, but there was the diffi-
culty. What machinery could they establish to obtain
that information ? As far as they went, these bills made
a successful attempt to remove the difficulty, and he must
repeat his regret that they were not to be persevered with
this session. They were a fair settlement of the question,
and government having taken them up, and indorsed them
with their sanction, he must say he was never more sur-
prised than when he heard they were to be abandoned.
He was not responsible for their abandonment, and he ap-
pealed, fearlessly, to the country, to decide between him
and the government as to who had been the most anxious
to pass these bills into a law, and set the landlord and
tenant question in Ireland at rest for ever. (Hear.)
Sir J. YOUNG said before he attempted to place before
the committee the view he took of tide matter, he must
observe that the right hon. gentleman placed his complaint
upon two grounds ; first, he said he had not been treated
with fairness and courtesy ; and, secondly, he said the go-
vernment were highly censurable for abandoning these
bills. Now, if he had been guilty of any want of courtesy
to the right hon. gentleman, he was sorry for it, but he
really was not conscious of having been guilty of anything
of the sort. With regard to the latter ground of com-
plaint he must remind the committee of what oc-
curred on Tuesday. A. month ago he had no idea of
the opposition that was likely to be raised to the bills,
and he certainly did hold out hopes to the right hon.
gentleman of being able to get them through this ses-
sion. On Tuesday, however, he was undeceived upon that
point ; it became quite plain that the opposition would
be of so formidable and protracted a character that it
was perfectly hopeless to persevere with the bills at
this late period of the session. Besides, the Irish sup-
porters of the Government had almost to a man requested
him to let the question stand over until next year, so that
the tenant class in Ireland might have an opportunity of
considering the proposals which bad come down from the
Lords ' • and that being so, what alternative had he but to
consent to a postponement ? Either the bills were the bills
of the Government or the bills of the right hon. gentle-
man ; but, no matter whether they were the one or the
other, he thought he had acted wisely in recommending
that they should be withdrawn. That was the best course
which could be taken to bring about a speedy settlement of
the question ; but parties of influence in Ireland had repre-
sented to him that if a postponement took place a compro-
mise might be arrived at before next session, which should
prove satisfactory to all parties. What folly it would have
been, then, to proceed with the bills now at the risk of
alienating that feeling and with the prospect of a bitter
opposition ! Under those circumstances he did not know
that he could say anything more in reply to the right hon.
gentleman further than repeat his belief that if they were
to press these bills the question would be placed in a worse
position than ever. If they were Government bills in
manner
nanhdnve eedor7awn
ghbt
ohit which
rhenatl iitfy
they h e should
were
not,hav have noot hesitation
were
th e billsi nwithdrawing
right hon.
n
gentleman, he could only recommend him to the same
course, with the view of reviving them early next session,
and then finally settling the question in a
should be satisfactory
hear.) to theN o d
olandlordohto
naen do
f tenanttheee
class of Ireland.
bills,hi; butta taken (lens
fora s
committee of the
atheaeTnes
he thought •
no other,it was advisable
that if there was
should be postponed.
whether it was at alnloalaindtapat'riCaocenricmpaelenasmaauetreiae;uwrea,
that the whole question (Hear.)
t thtthehheee
other Gov eervnemnienngtthhaet
paper for to-night.
hon. gentleman the It was this : the right.h
Lord J. RUSSELL must
gfiarrsegetn itaaitoinnensddt
man the member for the
hu.r reason
his
University
swgi
consented, as well out of regard to the right hon.
rthoyyu °lst fhd
Rh
foreahb lanl chargesWavoidn
gentle-
man himself, as not wishing to let the Government
rem • under an imputation, to allow his statement to
be made
the first thing to-night, at the risk of delaying th
of the Bribery Bill. He submitted no wh e progress
owever, to the
committee, that as the right hon. and '
learned
gentleman
had fully gone into his charge, and the right baronet,
the Secretary for Ireland, havinghon. made his explanation in
reply, they ought not to allow this matter to proceed any
further. (Mr. Whiteside—No
no.) He (Lord
.Russell)
could not prevent the hon. andC
learned gentleman from
continuing the debate, but his
doing
so might prevent him
from showing
on future occasions. (Hear, hear.) However, he would
move that the chairman should report progress, and then
the bills would be restored to their original position, which
would hive
the right hon. and learned gentleman an oppor-
tunity of bringing them on again if he should so think fit.
(Hear, hear.) He could not help feeling that this misun-
derstanding had arisen from a mistake in a word ; his right
hon. friend, the Secretary for Ireland, did not say that
Government could not "propose" these bills, because that
would have been inconsistent with his and their previous
conduct ; but what he did say was that if they had charge
of them they would not think it advisable to press them at
this late period of the session. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WHITESIDE said it was quite evident to him that
there had been some complicity in this matter between the
Government and the hon. and learned serjeant the member
for Kilkenny, for when he entered the house on Tuesday
the by-play going on was of so glaring a character as to in-
duce an old and practised member of the house to assure
him that the Government meditated sacrificing these bills.
(Hear, hear.) What had occurred to-night only strength-
ened that impression, because the right hon. baronet, the
Secretary for Ireland, told them the reason he couldnot
permit these bills to pass into a law was the absence of an-
other bill, which the Lords had thrown out. Now, would

~~rn i
y~
1 n!
}"_~ t

'SPap

the committee believe that this ve4ithillaiiite
rn
in the Lords through the instruen
the Government ? (Hear.) The red ,fat
there was no denying it, that these bills hgchbe
by the right hon. baronet the Secretary f 0.1:
support in that house, and he, as well as of
around him, were as much astonished to hear the speech
of the right hon. baronet on Tuesday as they were pained
by it. (Hear.) On Tuesday the right hon. gentleman dis-
tinctly stated that these were not Government hills, though
turning to the language held in the other house by the re-
presentatives of the Government, they found them de-
claring them to be accepted as Government measures.
There was proof in these proceedings, if proof were needed,
that the present coalition Cabinet was without consistency
and without a policy. The hon. and learned gentleman
(Serjeant Shee) might congratulate himself that with the
assistance of the Secretary for Ireland he had succeeded
in defeating two most useful bills, and given an additional
impetus to agitation in Ireland.
Mr. J. FITZGERALD reminded the hon. and learned
gentleman, that the opposition to these bills on Tuesday
came from the Irish members on the other side of the
house, and not from those who were the habitual supporters
of the Government. That imputation of obstructing
progress must refer to the members of the Tenant
League who sat on the Opposition, and not on the
Government side of the house. The bills as
thatthey
wascamego
od, w
from the Lorot haveds,th
been a,
oughssato
containinge much
ry,and
in-
stead of suppressing agitation would have encouraged
it, and the Government were, therefore, fully justi-
fied in recommending their postponement, especially
ga
es n
talne
maepnp
whoeal had
were been t stiat
od e
hteo
100 t hke
en(ai
uponb y r
ehpon.
seating Ireland, that now the measure for currying
recommendation of the Devon commission, the Tenants'
Compensation Bill, which was out the
the most important of
them all, was no longer a part of them, not to press them
during the present session.
Mr. LUCAS denied that there had been any obstruc-
tion offered to the measures by the Irish members on the
opposition side. There had been no discussion on them
but once this session, and that was accidental, on a ma
Lion for reporting progress, and in the last session he had
been thanked with others, both by the right hon. .and
learned gentleman (Mr. Napier) and by the Solicitor-
General for Ireland, for the facilities they had afforded in
the preparation of the bills. Where then was the obstruc-
tion of which the right hon. the Secretary for Ireland
complained ? The right hon. and learned gentleman (Mr.
Napier) had said that if -these measures passed, the poli-
tical capital of those Irish members who opposed them
would be destroyed. He would tell that right hon. and
learned gentleman that they would have no deficiency of
political capital while he continued to display that bigotry
and fanaticism for which he was so distinguished. (Cheers,
and " Oh, oh.") Let the Landlord and Tenant Bill pass
to-morrow, the right hon. gentleman and his friends would
provide employment for the representatives of the Irish
people every week of the session in opposing that bigoted
and unjust aggression with which the religion of the
people was continually assailed. (Oh, and cheers.) The
hon. and learned member for Ennis had said that as no
member of the Tenant League sat on the ministerial
side of the house, the imputation of obstruction must rest
entirely upon those Irish members who eat on the opposi-
tion benches. He wpuld tell that hon. and learned gentle.
man that there was one Irish member who sat on the mi.
o r oe f r
p.
position benches)—whose name was on the back of Mr. theo
nisterial side above the gangway, and who was in the re-
ceipt of salary from the Stete as oneof the law advisers
councilof the C
or of w
then,
Tenant
a fnotr
Lae
alg neg_period
League—(Cheers frowasamthe
Sharman Crawford's bill, and who in repeated speeches
declared that he would never accept office, so help his God,
under any Government tha twonld not agree to make that
bill a cabinet question, and who, having traded upon that
bill and made political capital out of it, had re.
canted his professions and swallowed his oaths—(more
cheering from the same quarter, and cries of Oh, oh,
and " Question" from other parts of the house)—and who
was at this moment taking the wages of the most extraor-
dinary apostacy. (Oh, cheers, and laughter.) He thought,
under these circumstances, that it would have been decent
if the right hon. gentleman, Sir J. Young, had refrained
from throwing out imputations which could apply to no
one but his own colleagues. (Oh, and question.) The
pith of this debate, however, apart from the personal mat-
ter, was this. They knew that these bills were now aban-
doned—that all legislation upon the subject for the present
session was at an end. The past they knew—what they
were now interested in was the future, and though he had
listened attentively in the hope of ascertaining what the
intentions of the Government were in this respect, he had
failed to collect them. (Hear.) They had, he contended,
a right to call upon the Government to declare what their
intentions for the future were. (Hear, hear.) Did they
intend to take up the question in the next session, with
the view of arriving at a final and satisfactory settlement?
(Hear, hear.) Did they mean to bring in the right hon.
and learned gentleman's two bills, and to make a final
settlement of the question of tenants' compensation, upon
the principle which they had themselves sanctioned and
the house had affirmed ? (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL had no intention of entering into
the personal question, or attempting to correct the mis-
apprehensions of the hon. gentleman who had just sat
down, by explaining the words he had imputed most un-
foundedly to hie right hon. friend (Sir J. Young)—but
with regard to the question he had put as to the intention
of the Government on this important question, though it
did not require any detailed answer, he thought it deserved
some notice. (Hear, hear.) It had always appeared to hint
that this question was one of the utmost difficulty, so far as
devising a satisfactory settlement was concerned—(hear,
hear)—and he could not but refer to the course he had
taken himself, and which he was sorry to find come now to
be almost repeated three years afterwards. His right hon.
friend Sir W. Somerville, when Chief Secretary for Ireland,
was sanguine as to the possibility of arriving at a settlement
of this landlord and tenant question in Ireland, and he in•
troduced a bill for that purpose. The bill was referred
to a select *committee who paid great attention to it, and
went through all the clauses with great care, and when it
came out of the committee his right hon. friend fondly
hoped that it might be the means of settling the question,
which had caused so much heart-burning and stood in the
way of so much of material improvement. But what was
the result ? Large deputations came over from Ireland
immediately some of whom he (Lord John Russell) saw
himself), and they stated that the remedies proposed were
so complicated in their nature that it world be useless to
them as tenants to endeavour to take advantage of it, and
they requested that the bill might be abandoned. On ex-
amining that bill he could not but see that there was great
justice in their observations ; but ho confessed that con-
viction induced a despondency in his mind as to the prao-
ticability of arriving at any satisfactory settlement by
mere legislation. (Hear.) For they were between these
two dangers. If they made the bills simple, they would
depart from the course of justice in imposing upon the
tenants and landlords burdeus which they had no right to
inflict—they would either interfere with contracts between
the one and the other in a way which they ought not by
legislation to do, and deprive the proprietors of the land
of the power of exercising their legitimate rights as pros
prietors, or give to the tenant a very insufficient and illu-
sory remedy—and if, on the other hand, they made the
measure exceedingly complicated, they would then, as the
deputations urged, make the process so difficult and so
dilatory that they would not be likely to take advantage of
it. He came, therefore, to the conclusion which he stated
on a previoui occasion, that it was useless to endeavour to
fix by legislation the precise mode of a contract which was
only likely to be beneficial if it was carried into Affect in
good faith, confidence, and liberality on the side of both
landlord and tenant. (Hear.) That was to say, if they
proceeded upon the presumption that on the one hand the
landlord would use all the powers which the law gave him
as landlord to oppress the tenant, and on the other that the
tenant would be always endeavouring as much as possible
to cheat his landlord out of his rights; if they went upon
that supposition they would never arrive at a satisfactory
settlement. Others, however, were more confident. His
right hon. friend who sat near him was exceedingly con-
fident as to the possibility of making a settlement, and the
hon. and learned gentleman opposite who had brought for-
ward the complaint to-night was also very sanguine, and
took great pains and trouble, for which he deserved the
highest praise, in framing the measure which he had sub-
mitted to the house. He (Lord John) confessed when he
heard the hon, and learned gentleman's explanation, in-
stead of thinking he did not go far enough he listenedto
some of that trepidation which his noblef and
l learned
friend he was
some of the hon. and learned gentleman's proposals_ withod
' which it
approaching too near to those Socialist principles
friend the Lord Chancellor had spoken o
was dangerous to introduce into any act of Parliament.
.
a fair one. That
the hon. and learned gentleman's measure
to a select committee, and by the
(Hear, heat.) Upon the whole, however, he considered
measure was referred
advice of his right hon. friend certain other proposals and
stipulations were adopted as to the relation of landlord
and tenant when the bill went to the House of Lords,
and in reference to that part of the measure which wasin-
tended for the benefit of the tenant it gave certain rights
which were not usually given to tenants in this country.
These provisions were strongly objected to by the landed
proprietors in the House of Lords, as well as by the great
law lords—the lights of the house—who were most un-
willing to consent to that part of the bill. This year,
however, that house (the Lords) had passed a bill con-
taining something favourable to those who entertained
the views which were put forwarded by the Irish Tenant
League—not perhaps to the full extent to which those per.
sons would desire to go, and therefore not unnaturally he
thought that when the bill came down to the House of
Commons it excited discontent and dissatisfaction amongst
those who favoured the extreme views propounded in
Ireland on this question. (Hear, hear.) When he spoke
of extreme views he altogether disavowed the imputation
thrown from either side upon those who entertained
views which might be regarded as even most extreme.
There was one hon. gentleman whose integrity and
honesty of purpose no one could question. He alluded
to Mr. Sharman Crawford, who he saw had lately arrived
in London for some purpose, and who expressed great
despondency as to the fate of those bills. The sincerity of
that gentleman's views on this question no one would for
a moment deny. (Hear, hear.) He dared say, that in
every party, political or religions, of whatever opinions,
there would be some' who looked only to their own se/Ash
advantage while promoting the views of that party, sad
doubtless there might be some such in connexion with Lle
agitation on this question ; but so far as he knew, he was
disposed to give full credit to those who professed
tl and
views of the tenant league party for being
sincerely impressed with the correctness of the. ~
professed. (Hear.) Then what was more nsiturtZ,rn
a bill came down from the House of !Jort_rfmiS
honesty
they
f
to be a settlement of this question, and whicht
contain provisions which they considered ~r7Hweara,,
settlement, that they should protest against "
hear.) Though he did not agree therefore in the extreme
views of those persons, he thought nothing was more na-
tural or consistent than the course they had takee.
(Hear.) If there had been plenty of
time, he thought it
amended and the clauses so altered, that a bill might have
been sent back to the other house, which
would have gone
very possible that one of these bills might have been
some way at least towards a settlement, and which might
perhaps have given satisfaction generally in Ireland. The
H of Lords, had there been time to consider it, might
have rejected or embraced that measure, and the House
of Commons might have gone on with the consideration of
these bills.
at the immense number of clauses, and
the enormous number of amendments to be proposed—
one hon. and learned gentleman having given notice of
no less than 200—the discussion to which those amend-
smeon _
e But it was obvious that at this period of the
ments would necessarily give rise—looking, too, at the
votes supply yet remaining to be passed, and
the numerous other business before the house, that it
was impossible to proceed with them. He, therefore, had
come to the conclusion, unwillingly, he must say (for he
admitted it would be desirable to pass these bills), that it
was hopeless, unless they had two or three months still
before them to attempt during the present session to come
to a settlement of this important question. (Hear, hear.)
Whether hie right hon. friend (Sir J. Young) wee Tiight in

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supposing that during six or eight months of deliberation
the whole of these bills, with little alteration, would come
to ba generally adopted he could not say. If such a dispo-
sition should appear they might then re-introduce them
next session. He agreed that the bill his right hon. friend
took charge of----the Tenant's Compensation Bill—whether
it was contained in a separate bill or embraced in the clauses
of one of them, was a matter of inferior importance. Either
in the one form or the other, it would be sufficient for its
purpose. But he must own, seeing that the question was
Still so much a matter of dispute, that there was no dispo-
sition on either side to agree to the bill which was called the
Landlord's and Tenant's Bill he thought it would be almost
useless to attempt to enter into the consideration of its
clauses. (Hear, hear.) There was one thing his noble and
learned friend the Lord Chancellor was reported to have
said, and which had been quoted by the hon. and learned
gentleman, in which he fully agreed, that the best thing
that could be done on this subject—that which, beyond
all question, no one could dispute, and which another
noble friend of his, also a member of the administration,
Lord Lansdowne, had always contended for—was that they
should endeavour to make the law as perfect as possible
with regard to voluntary contracts between landlord and
tenant—(hear)--that the tenant on entering on his tenancy
should know precisely what he was engaged to perform, and
what were his rights and claims ; and that there should be
a simple mode of enforcing the contract without having
recourse to a dilatory and expensive process of litigation.
That was an object practical in itself, and was contained
in the Leasing Powers Bill, which he owned he considered
a most excellent measure. (Hear, hear.) The hon. mem-
ber for Enniskillen had expressed himself very angrily
against the government, and no doubt it was easy to use
hard words on this subject. He (Lord J. Russell) did not
wish to retort or to refer to the history of the government
to which the hon. and learned gentleman had belonged
with respect to this question, and the question raised lay
the hon. member for Kilkenny. He did not wish to use
hard words on that subject, and he thought it better not
• to make any rejoinder, as he did not desire a matter of
this kind to be made a point of party contest ; but if he
- was to refer to the history of past governments, he might
be able to show that one party-was as vulnerable as the
other in this respect. The subject was no doubt ene of
great difficulty, and he had only one consolation in the
present state of the question, and that was derived from
the statement of the hon. member for Kilkenny. He
(Lord J. Russell) was not in attendance in the house when
the speech of the bon, member was delivered, having been
detained at a meeting of the Privy Council, but he under-
stood that the hon. member stated that one reason why it
was not necessary to come to an immediate settlement of
this question was, that Ireland was now is a better condi-
tion than she had ever been, and that there were no angry
discussions between landlord and tenant, and that those
were reasons why there could be no harm done by post-
poning these bills. That coming from a gentleman who
had been always urging the prompt settlement of the
question, was certainly satisfactory. He (Lord J. Russell)
might also mention that he had to-day seen an old,
friend of his, a gentleman of large landed property in Ire-
land, and he asked )rim his opinion on that point, and he
confirmed the statement of the hon. member, saying that
there never was a time when landlords. and tenants were
on better terms, and that the state of Ireland was greatly
improved. He might add that he had received a private
letter from the Lord Lieutenant, in which he expressed his
great satisfaction at the state of peace and general good
feeling which prevailed in Ireland. In conclusion, the
noble lord said, let us hope that though the Government
may be subject to taunts on this question, there may come
a time when we shall be able to enter with greater har-
mony and union in the work of legislation, which remains
to be done ; and I do hope that both parties who hold ex-
treme views, those who on the part of tenants go beyond
what is reasonable, and those who are advocates of the
maintenance of the rights of landlords to such an extent as
may be inconsistent with the interests of tenants, will mo-
dify those views, and that at last we may attain, if not to
a perfect code of legislation, to some settlement of the
question.
Mr. MAGUIRE strongly denounced the conduct of the
Government in not dealing with this question, and said
that he despaired of seeing it settled until it, was taken up
a sincere and resolute manner by Government.
. Mr-POIeLA.RD-URQUITART expressed his regret that
es. Lord J.aussell had not made some explicit declaration on
,the ,subjeot of tenants compensation, andSiugecl that al-
e_ ihrtgliest.thospresent moment,there was tranquillity in
Ireland, the tenantry could not ba expected to submit pa-
tiently to be taxed for carrying on a war unless they had
full justice done to them.
Sir A. BROOKE thought that this discussion had proved
the impracticability of legislation on this subject. Al-
though he was opposed alegislation, he did not wish to
deprive tenants of any of their rights ; but these bills were
an invasion of the rights of property. He hoped gentlemen
connected with the tenant league would abstain from agi-
tation on this subject during the next winter; and if the
people were left to themselves, there would not be a word
said about tenant right.
Mr. POTTER, as a member for a town in Ireland, wished
to say that he viewed this question as one in which all
Ireland was concerned. In the north of Ireland, some
years ago, tenants did lay out a deal of money, but from
the time of the Devon commission there had arisen a feel-
ing of distrust, and they had not been induced to lay out
their money. He knew that there wore large sums lying
idle in the banks in Ireland from this cause, and regretted
extremely that the noble lord had held out no hope of the
Government dealing with this subject.
Mr. DISRAELI said he could not allow this conversa-
tion to cease without some observations, which he thought
due to his right hon. friend, who was concerned is it. He '
observed with regret that there had been some doubt
thrown en the sincerity of his right hon. friend in under-
taking the consideration and the conduct of these bills in
Parliament. He could easily understand that to a gen-
tleman of the high susceptibility and honour like his
right hon. friend, such accusations would be painful and
odious, and he must confess that being perfectly acquainted
with the course or conduct of his right bon. friend, and
knowing that he was in every respect single-minded on this
question, he should not do his duty if he did not express
his opinion on the present occasion. Long before his right
hon. friend had introduced these subjects to Parliament,
anti long before his right hon. friend had occupied the re-
sponsible position which he had recently held. his right
hon. friend had conferred with him coutblentially, and he
had expressed his opinion that this was aquestion which no
public wan who aspired to take part in the affairs of his
country ought to neg!ect. His right hon. friend had placed
before him the result of the labours of Mr. Fergusson and
the able coadjutor of that gentleman before they were pub-
lished, and therefore he was in a position to speak with
authority with regard to the sentiments of his right
hon. friend on this question. When at a period long after
that accidents brought his right hon. friend and himself
into a position in which their sincerity on thissubject could
be tested, his right hon. friend sketched the measure which
he afterwards introduced with so much elaboration and
completeness to the house; and he (Mr. Disraeli) gave his
complete adherence to the just views which his right hon.
friend then indicated. In his opinion the question ought
to have been met in the same spirit in which it had been
introduced by his right hon. friend, and he was prepared
to have supported him in the conduct of these measures.
They have been told to-night that these were measures
which it was impossible to pass through both houses of par-
liament. He was, however, of opinion that these were
measures which, after they had been submitted to the
cri-
tical examination of parliament, if they had been taken
up by a sincere and powerful government, might have been
passed, and that in such a manner as to contribute to the
happiness and wellbeing of Ireland, in every class, whether
landlord or tenant. They certainly were bold provisions
contained in the measure of his right hon. and learned
friend, but they were also wise provisions, and guarded
with prudent limitations. He could say-ae much of the
Tenants Compensation Bill, which was brought forward by
the Chief Secretary for Ireland, because his was a measure
which contained bold provisions, without any restrictions
or prudent limitations. His was a measure, in fact, which
had a communistic tendency, but the measure of his right
hon. and learned friend had an exceedingly good tendency,
and yet this latter was the measure objected to by the no-
ble President of the Council. It was impossible to consider
the peculiar subject under consideration to-night without
taking a large and general view of it, though they could
not enter into the minute details connected with the wise
tenure of land in Ireland, but the noble lord the President
of the Council had told them that the session was too far
advanced for him totake the opinion of parliament on these
two measures. Well, he was perfectly ready to admit that
there was a legitimate reason to offer by any minister on such
an occasion as this, especially by a minister who leads the
House of Commons, but what said the Chief Secretary for
Ireland? Why, contrary to the noble lord, he told them the
question was of great magnitude and importance, but it was
brought forward in such a form that on no condition what-
ever would the Government consent to its consideration in
that shape. Now, which were they to believe—the noble
lord, or the right hon baronet ? (Hear, hear.) He agreed
with the noble lord, however, that the session was too far
advanced to make it convenient to enter on the discussion
of one of the most important propositions that was ever
submitted to the consideration of a committee of the House
of Commons, but what had they been doing for the last six
months, that they should now for the first time almost be
called upon to discuss a question which was by no means
new, having years ago been brought under the considera-
tion of Parliament,
and having last ye* been submitted to
the consideration of the House by whom it had
been fully investigated through of
theerdeins,trumentality of a
select committee. (Hear, hear. ) Srely, considering the
- gravity anti importance of the su.bj ,nd conidering also
Parliament,
the length of time it had been beforeee
have been supposed that-the House of Commons tihtires
qt.would
having sat six months, that the Government
_snixesmtoonn.ths ?
ge
ha
year
been able to offer some solution o the
hear.) What had they been do' these have
these last
(Hear,
He
wanted to know what Ministers had been doing
tiques-
.wed been
six months that the.' could not have had thiso what
on thoroughly investigated ? He wanted to know
was the catalogue of their legislation ; had the period
fully employed or deliberately wasted? (Rear, hear.) Re
r
wanted to know, if we were at war, where were the
con-
quests we had gained, or, if we were at peace, what ben arrangements had been made, or what advantageous
legislation had been accomplished ? (Hear, hear.) He
Ministers reformed Parliament? (Hear, hear.) Had the
revised Parliamentary oaths? (Hear, hear.) Had theyeducated the country ? had they even educated Scotland?
(Hear, hear.) Corruption in certain boroughs they had
touched, but here, as in other instances, they had failed,
and he should have thought that, instead of moving to
report progress, it would kayo been more satisfactory to
the country, and at all events to the feelings of the minister
who pretended to lead the House of Commons, that some
reason should be given why six months should have elapsed
without their having this question brought under conside-
ration. Report progress on these two bills indeed ! better
rather report the progress of ministers. (Laughter.) Let
some one make a motion to that effect; let them report
progress to enable ministers to come forward to the table
and tell them what ministers had done during the last six
months, and that would be reporting progress far more
satisfautory to the country than the motion which the
noble lord had made to-night. (Hear, hear.) The noble
l".rd bait a,,t succeeded • yet in dealitw with this difficult
estilln, and what was the prospect ;Inch the noble lord
_ out of the future legislation of his Government—if it
be a Government et 9 (Hear, hear) A
few bights ago the Chancellor
ancetilloer sonh
of the t
helxcliequer, spooking
of the eouduet ofk the side of
the Lewes wee gentlemen on tile opposite
niticant th were inconsiderable in n i number or nsig-
Were a
party,ca.purid finicplea they protested as a party, if they
Chancellor of the Exchequer he thought lie might fairly
if they were a Govloern and his friends as a Government
if
spirit mmeet.(Cheers.) But conducting
their debate in a spir
mutuallyw provisional—(laughter)—
he would ask the noble lordquestion which an hon. gentlehmetaliner he would h
had answer
addressedthe
e
to him, namely, what were the intentions a
tentiiroeiLdy
of Govern-
ment with respect to the tenure
the future. (Hear, hear.) Thenoblef land in Ireland for
lord had told them
it was a difficult question to deal with ; but was it not
the duty of the Government to deal with difficult u
tions : The noble President of the Council, however,-

for a number of years had somehow or other contrived to ► 1
carry on the Government of the country, personally speak-
ing, with admirable ability ; he was a ripe and skilful de-
bator, and, in his opinion, no uncommon orator ; and yet
the secret spell of his administration was in always avoid-
ing questions of difficulty. (A laugh.) This question
might be a difficult one, but after their professions iu
184 G, he insisted that the Government were bound to do
something with regard to the tenure of laud in Ireland,
and he hoped the hon. member who had put the question
would press for an answer. The noble lord had attempted
to meet the difficulty by reading a passage from a private
letter of the Lord-Lieutenant, but the noble lord had
never yet had a difficulty upon Irish politics which he did
not attempt to solve by reading a passage from the letter
of a Lord-Lieutenant. (A laugh.) The right hon. gentle-
man having justified the support which he and his party
gave to the second reading of Mr. Sergeant Shee's bill, al-
though they disapproved of its provisions, on the ground
that as at the time the whole question was about to be
referred to a select committee it was only fair that all
sides should be heard in the committee, he went on to ob-
serve that the hon. and learned sergeant had been described
by the Chief Secretary for Ireland not exactly as a fol-
lower of the opposition, but as one who repudiated the
claim of the Government his support. The right hon.
baronet said the hon. and learned gentleman was not one
of those who honoured the Government with their sup-
port. Well, he (Mr. Disraeli) confessed at this advanced
period of the session he would not enter into the inquiry
of who were the gentlemen who honoured the Go-
vernment with their support. (A laugh.) It was
one of those questions which might lead not only to a de-
bate, but even to adjourned debates, as there was
hardly a question of the present day which was more
susceptible of breadth of treatment or more capable of
giving rise to interminable discussions. (A laugh.) Whe-
ther after the longest discussion it could be satisfactorily
proved to the country that unbounded support which, of
course, the Government would desire, was a question they
need not now settle ; they must still leave it to be one of
the many vexed questions that agitate the political world.
On the present occasion he wanted the committee to do
justice to his right hon. and learned friend, who had taken
up this question long before he ever anticipated being in a
responsible position, and who, when he found himself in a
responsible position, pressed it upon the attention of the
Cabinet with earnestness and energy. (Hear, hear.) He
wanted the committee distinctly to understand what they
were talking about. The honour of his right hon. and
learned friend was at stake, and that being so, the noble
lord (the President of the Council) could not be allowed to
stifle the expression of Parliamentary opinion by simply
moving that the chairman should report progress. (Hear.)
The noble lord had fixed this evening expressly for a state-
ment from a member of the late Government upon the
most important subject connected with the Government of
Ireland. That statement having now been made had evi-
dently produced a deep impression upon the whole com-
mittee; but it was followed by a statement of a very dif-
ferent character, and it was quite plain that the speech of
the Secretary for Ireland had produced a very different
effect to that of the speech of his right hon. and learned
friend. He was unwilling to speak of this latter statement
with any great severity ; it was made at the twilight hour,
which, according to Dante, softens the heart, and might,
perhaps, soften the brains too—(a laugh)—but be that as it
might, the right hon. baronet could hardly expect the few
measured sentiments which he uttered upon this subject
should carry conviction to the minds of a committee of the
House of Commors, or be at all satisfactory to the country
upon this vital question. (Hear.) It was most surprising
that the noble President of the Council, having in the most
formal manner fixed this occasion for hearing the statement
of the late Attorney-General for Ireland, and having
listened to that statement, should get up and move that the
Chairman do report progress. That appeared to him to bethe
most singular, the most unauthorised, and most unadvisable
course that was ever yet taken by any Minister, because what
was the motive of his right hon. and learned friend in ask-
ing permission of the house to make this statement ? Why,
his right hon. and learned friend, actuatedfrom an impulse of
public feeling which was always respected by gentlemen on
both aides of the house, had thought his personal honour
was injured, and that the public interest was affected
by the course which Government bad chosen to take upon
these important bills ; and from a sense of honour and self-
respect, which, after all, was a most important stimulus
to men in public life—(hear, hear)—he had been
induced to bring the whole subject finally before the com-
mittee with a view to his own exculpation in the eyesof the
public. He had not, however, made this appeal merely for
the sake of obtaining a common-place official answer; on
the contrary, he had made it for the purpose of eliciting the
opinions of the house upon the question of whether he had
acted in an unworthy manner with- regard to these bills,
or whether they believed that the government of the coun-
try had trifled with him in a most unjust way. (Hear.)
For the noble lord the President of the Council to meet
that appeal by moving that the chairman should report
progress was ungenerous, nay, it was unwise, because it
was contrary to Parliamentary precedent and usage. Why,
the noble lord might have left it for the hon. member for
Salford (Mr. Brothertoe) to make that motion. (A laugh )
Why (lid he not ask the hon. member for Salford to make
it for him ? It might have been consistent conduct in that
hon. member, but it certainly was not in the noble lord.
(Hear, hear,) The right hon. gentleman then proceeded
to contrast this conduct of the noble lord with the treat-
ment which the noble lord met with from the opposition
on a similar occasion, and asked what the house or the
country would have thought if, when the noble lord bad
made his appeal to the house on abandoning the Reform
Bill, anybody had got up and said the best thing they
could do was to move the previous question, or ask leave
to report progress? (Hear.) Instead of that course being
taken, however, the house felt that the individual who
appealed to them was not only justified in making the
appeal, but that it was his duty to do so, and the pre-
sent being a precisely parallel case, he asked the house
whether they would deny to an individual member the
samejustice that they accorded to a Ministerof the Crown.
To see his measures, after all, thrown over scarcely with
respect, ho might well express his opinions, and he was jus-
tified in doing so. But, in behaving thus to him, the Go-
vernment had only followed a rule which, with strict im-
partiality, they applied to themselves. This was only the
same process of treatment which the Reform Bill had un-
dergone. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Napier ought to have consi-
dered this before making his appeal to the cormnitte, which
had been made without consulting him (Mr. Disraeli), as it
was his wont to du. He should have dissuaded him from
taking that coarse, on the ground the the Government was
made of such singular materials that they were constantly
compelled to withdraw their own bills, and that the busi-
ness of a coalition Ministry could not be carried on without
continual perfidy. (Hear.) Such appeals to the house
were inconvenient at this moment, when it was essential
to present to Europe the appearance of hs.ving a great and
united party at the head of affairs. (Laughter.) Had the
Government proposed to exclude strangers from the house
for the remainder of the session, it would, perhaps, have
tended to consolidate their strength. As the appeal had
been made he hoped the house would respond to it. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the question, as at first
submitted, was a very important ono. He had appointed
an important bill (the Bribery Bill) as the first order of the
day, but had postponed it to give Mr. Napier the opportu-
nity of making any charge or giving any explanation he
wished. (Hear, hear.) Ho was fully heard. Sir John
Young offered his explanation ; and he then thought that
the house would consent to proceed with that other impel'
tent measure. Other gentlemen spoke, and protracted the
debate; but Mr. Disraeli had taken another course—that
of making a party attack upon the Government, not merely
with reference to this bill, but to their general conduct.
(Hear, hear.) He had taken the opportunity of referring
to a course to which he was a party when in office,
to which he (Lord John Russell) not wishing to rouse
angry feelings in debate, had very lightly adverted. But
he thought himself obliged to refer again to that sub-
ject, that Mr. Disraeli's explanation might be valued at
what it was worth. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Sharman Crawfod,
when a member of that house, had been in the habit of
proposing to introduce bills which the members of his ad-
ministration thought contained principles that ought not to
be countenanced by the house. They always fairly declared
their sentiments, either on the proposal to introduce such
bills, or on their second reading. Mr. Disraeli, when a
member of the Government, had thought fit to pursue a
different course. Other bills were introduced by the At-
torney-General of that Government, and then they gave
leave to an hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Serjeaut
Shee) to introduce his bill. That was evidently not only a
surprise, but a great gratification to the supporters of the
bill. That bill was referred to a select committee, who, it
was supposed, would fairly consider its provisions, whether
they were just to the landlord and fair to, the tenant.
Great alarm was excited in the other hOuse of Parlia-
ment; the supporters of the then administration felt that
property was endangered by this bill, and a noble lord
having asked a question on the subject, Lord Derby de-
clared that he utterly disapproved of the principle of the
bill, that it was not intended seriously to consider them,
and that he for one would never sanction such principles.
Hero was deception in the first place of those who had pro-
posed the bill, who were gulled with the notion that their
bill was to be fairly considered, and then were told that it
had only been sent to a committee in order to be rejected.
A course more disreputable and discreditable to a govern-
ment had never been pursued. (Cheers.) Such was the
conduct which Mr. Disraeli had thought fit to bring under
the notice cf the house ; and he had brought it forward in
such a way as to render it necessary that ho (Lord John)
should remind the house what was really done. If that
bill was a fair bill, and contained provisions which
really deserved the attention of the house, it ought to have
been fairly considered in committee. If it contained pro-
visions dangerous to property, the Government should
have declared against it at once, and not have allowed it
to proceed till they found It had excited alarm, which it
was necessary to allay, in the members of the other house.
(Hear.) Mr. Disraeli had found great fault with the
conduct of the Government during the present session ;
but he was in a very peculiar position with regard to the
Party he led, and the Oppoiitiou often induced him to pur-
sue
to
a course different from what he otherwise would pur-
sue. He was the leader of a party who attached impor-
tanceoft certain principles,
traditions which belonged to them, and to the maintenance
their credit and character, and to the historic
tine and —re
I conaequently followed , when there were any great ques-
tions before the house whether sound or not. (Hear.)
inno-
vation—any question gresswerienfawirhliychattheprinciples.
issue—any of those ques-
tions on which that of conserve.
would always, e
those principles ;
Party had always been afraid of MO-
the honour of t in which it appeared to them that
country was concerned—that party
or not, assert'whether the right hon. gentleman wished it
fair and hearty
Disraeli found himself disabled and if those principles led
them to the support of the G
ear, hear.) Therefore Mr.
Government, they gave them a
naturally taken by a leader of from pursuing the course
of
support,
of bringing to an issue the conttillecOpposition, namely, that
t of the Government on
and
some question or other, asking whether or not it was
deserving the support of the House e
support which the Government had on m
d Commons
; for the
of those
questions would be such as to strengthenietheaGnoyvernment
ischoeutriset_otodilvirue
s (whaiit4riorhienaor.)
donhthearet
I%vvalichaniolte w•
her
were made by independent mein ors ; and, wl •tev
Wll3 the character of those motions, provieed"7
Mere no great principles involved, and no immediately
disastrous consequences to ensue from their adopti
the right hon. gentleman pursued one undeviating
course, that of endeavouring, whatever the question might
be, to put the government in a minority, ant then take his
chance of saying that their measures had Idled, and that
motions which they opposed had been adopted. (Cheers.)
That was certainly a conduct iinie.what new to him, for he
had been opposed by such leaders as Sir R. Peel, and others
who preceded hiin; and when their opinions led them to
oppose the government,
they pa' orally and fairly, and jus-
tifiably did so, but they never thought of coming down to
the house merely to take up any motion that might be
made. (Cheers) If it was a question which did not affect
the public-interest or the transaction of the public busi-
ness, they thought it their duty either to abstain from op-
posing or to • 14)
su ort the Government. (Hear.) But Mr.
Disraeli recognised no such duty as incumbent on him. 1
He seemed to consider questions in which the greatest in-