The Sun.
London, England, 1853-08-09 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, AUGUST 9, 1853.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

sense of their real position, which was that of trustees
for the Crown, and not for a defunct company, and
which also provided against corruption.
Lord HARROWBY thought that both oaths were in-
sulting to the directors, who were called upon to give
an obligation demanded of no other functionaries.
Lord GRANVILLE proposed to re-consider the oath,
and hring is forward again on the third reading.
Clauses up to 20, inclusive, were agreed to.

letters from Galatz, dated the 28th of July, in which no
allusion whatever is made to such an occurrence. But
certainly some allusions are made, which I shall not ad-
vert to, respecting a few gun boats brought down there,
and the bellicose character of the general arrangements
at that point. We have likewise received letters from
Jassy of the 27th July, and from Bucharest of the 26th
July, and no mention is made in them of this new form
of government being established. It is perfectly true that
the presence of the Russian troops there is alluded to as
a hardship, and that the peasants are withdrawn from
their agricultural operations, and made to do a certain
amount of work ; but there is no mention of recruits
being drawn from amongst them. Mention is made of a
large amount of provisions being sent from Bessarabia,
which is Russian territory, for the use or the Russian
troops in the principalities. I therefore say, and I am sure
your lordships will agree with me, that to have acted upon
any such information as we have seen in the newspapers
would have been premature, especially as some of the re-
ports referred to last week have already proved to be in-
correct. I can only say further, that my noble friend can-
not exceed me in his abhorrence of war and in his anxiety
and desire for peace, provided that peace is an honour-
able peace. (Hear.) lam sure no other peace would
ever be for the interests of this country, or receive the
support of this great nation. (Hear.) But, my lords,
I must say that, at the point at which we are arrived in
these negotiations, when I do see reason to hope they
are tending to a satisfactory and peaceful solution, ex-
citing debates in either House of Parliament are not
likely to produce that peace, and that peculiar character
of peace which would alone be beneficial to this coun-
try. (Hear.) I must inform my noble friend that the
negotiations appear to have assumed exactly that cha-
racter which we all have most desired. (Hear.) This
question has not been left as one simply between Russia
and the Porte. It has not been left as one between
England and France, united closely for supporting Tur-
key against Russia. It has assumed a European cha-
racter. (Hear.) It is not only the Porte, it is Austria,
it is Prussia, it is France, it is England, acting together
in order to check designs which they consider inconsistent
with the balance of power, or those territorial limits
established by previous agreement. This, I say, is a
state of things which must be satisfactory to your lord-
ships and to the country, because it is likely to lead to
a more satisfactory and more permanent conclusion.
(Hear.) I think my noble friend will not press me to
enter more into details as to the state of the negotiations
now pending between Vienna and St. Petersburgh,
when I assure him that nothing has been done at Vienna
without the consent of the French and English Govern-
ments, and that the French and English Governments
will consent to nothing which does not protect and se-
cure the independence of Turkey. (Hear.)
The Earl of MALMESBURY said it was impossible
to believe that when two countries of the importance
and power of France and England stood forward
in defence of a country like Turkey, and agreed
upon a policy of action, that negotiations would
close in anything prejudicial to the honour or credit
of either of those great nations. He had no wish to
embarrass her Majesty's Government, or to say one
word which could in any manner, the most remote, in-
terfere with the negotiations now being carried on ; but
there was a point at which the patience displayed by
that side of the house could not be further extended.
Parliament would be prorogued in the course of a week
or ten days, and yet the public knew nothing of what
had passed in the negotiations between this country and
Russia. They were perfectly well informed with respect
to the negotiations—or at least had a very fair idea of
the negotiations between France and Russia from the
circular of M. Drouyn de Lhuys, and they had been in-
formed by the same kind channel of so much of the
policy of Russia as they could judge of from the two
circulars of Count Nesselrode. At the same time, her
Majesty's Government had not uttered a word or availed
themselves of the same channels of information. He
thought some explanation a little more detailed than
that which the noble earl had given should be laid before
Parliament before it separated for five or six months.
He saw no reason why the opinion of Parliament on
this important question should not be made known to
this country and to foreign countries, without producing
any debate which should interfere with the negotiations
now being carried on. He could only say, if he par-
ticipated in the debate, he should refrain from saying a
single syllable which might interfere with the desirable
progress of those negotiations. He trusted under the
present circumstances of the session, the noble earl would
not refuse to give the country some idea of what he ex-
pected from the Russian Government—to tell them a
little more plainly whether it was made a sine qua non
that Russia should evacuate the Turkish provinces ; be-
cause when he talked of objections to a permanent occu-
pation, it was a phrase difficult to explain ; and it might
be " permanent occupation " meant the appropriation
of those provinces by Russia. He did not think this
country would be satisfied with less than the speedy and
complete evacuation of those provinces. (Hear, hear.)
fhe Earl of CLARENDON—I should be very sorry
if there existed the slightest misapprehension, even for a
single day, with respect to my meaning with regard
to the Russian occupation of the Danubian provinces.
I have no hesitation now in informing
lay noble friend,
without waiting for any further discussion, that we look
to the immediate and complete evacuation of the Da-
nubian provinces as a sine qua non of any agreement
whatever. (Hear, hear.) With respect to any discus-
sion, or any statement which it is desirable to make, I
hope your lordships will bear in mind that the Govern-
ment have not wished to shrink from this discussion, or
to lay the fullest information before Parliament of what
has been done. I did not even ask my noble friend to
postpone the motion of which be had given notice for a
future evening. I felt that if your lordships and the
country were pleased to ask for it, you were perfectly
right and justified in so doing, and the noble marquis,
yielding to the request of the noble lord, did so inde-
pendent of the Government, and without even giving
the Government notice of his intention. I hope, there-
fore, it will be remembered that the Government do not
shrink from any discussion ; and any disposition I ever
itt greatly increased by
th had
in r
ospfavourect _ f
—of the close of the session. Ido think it desirable
the country should have every information we can give
oi fear that n
odiscussion
quite
so
immediate a prospect
it, and I can assure my noble friend, nothing will pre-
vent her Majesty's Government from doing so, except
those reasons which have hitherto influenced them—
regard for the public service—and which have been re-
cognised and approved by this house. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH begged to ask the
noble earl, if her Majesty's Government had received
any information of an arrangement 1,
-1 which Russia had
advanced large sums of money to Persia, and taken in
part payment the province of Tieran.
The Earl of CLARENDON—In answer to the noble
earl, I have seen this report, as the noble earl has done,
and I have taken the best means I can of verifying the
facts, but as yet I have no official information on the
subject. If I may draw inferences from other informa-
tion, I should say no such arrangement has been made.
The Liberated Africans Bill, the Land Tax Redemp-
tion Bill, the Newspaper Stamp Duties Bill, and the
Consolidated Annuities (Ireland) Bill were severally
read a seoond time.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.
The house then went into committee on this bill.
On clause 1,
Lord ALBEMARLE said that Parliament having as
seated to the double government, it must be taken with
all its enormous expense, but he suggested the doing
away with the Governor and Council of Madras and
Bombay, and the substitution of a lieutenant-governor.
The clause was agreed to.
On clause 2,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH proposed an amendment,
providing that if the Court of Directors should neglect
to sign any document within a given time, the signature
of an official of the Board of Control should suffice to
make such document valid.
After discussion it was agreed that the power of affix-
ng such signature should be conferred on commis-

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
THE EASTERN QUESTION.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE then rose and
said—My lords, I last week took the liberty of putting
a question on the same subject to which I have again
to call ye-dr lordships' attention. I received an answer
upon that occasion from my noble friend, which I am
pleased to say was quite satisfactory. But, my lords,
unfortunately I am compelled almost to repeat the same
question in consequence of information which has since
been received. According to information which has ap-
peared in the public journals of this country, under date
of "Jassy, 28th July," it appears that the government
of that province has been entirely superseded, and a new
government has been established by the authority of the
Russian Emperor. It appears that the Hospodar is
allowed to form part of the new government, but three
assistants are named with him, and this council has the
entire legislative and administrative government of those
provinces. I believe the same course has been pursued
in Wallachia as in Moldavia, and those provinces are
now under a new administrative and legislative govern-
ment, appointed by the Emperor of Russia. But, my
lords, that is not all. It appears that contributions for
the support of the Russian forces are levied directly in
those provinces, and that certain Boyards have been
forcibly compelled to enlist in the service of the Russian
Emperor. We have then these provinces, if these ac-
counts be correct, in every respect under the rule and
government of the Czar ; the administrative and legisla-
tive functions are carried on under Russian authority ;
the taxation and resources of the country are managed
under Russian authority ; and, more than that, the
Russian armies are recruited from the inhabitants of the
country. Now, the first question which I have to ask
my noble friend is, whether he has received any infor-
mation on this subject, either contradicting or confirm-
ing the state of things which I have just now stated.
The second question—and it is one which very naturally
occurs, and so naturally that I cannot refrain from
putting it, even though I may be possibly thought in-
discreet in doing so—is one which lam sure every man
in this country, and every member of either house of
Parliament, is most anxious to receive information.
What, if these facts are true, if they cannot be contra-
tradicted, what has the Government of this country done
thereupon ? The question divides itself naturally into
two parts—•what has been done here at home, and what
has been done by the English functionaries abroad ?
(Hear, hear.) I have very little doubt as regards the
latter point, and I hope I shall be told there is very
little reason to doubt that at the moment I have the
honour of addressing your lordships the combined fleets
are at last before Constantinople, the other side of the
Dareaneiles. (Hear, hear.) I cannot imagine it pos-
sible that the ambassadors of France and England have
any restriction to their discretion at present as to the
directions they may give the admiral commanding the
forces to which I have referred. Nor can I doubt for
an instant that my noble friend and relative at Constan-
tinople will have thought right to act with spirit and
energy, as becomes the representative of this great
country. (Hear.) If I ask what has been done at
home, I expect and hope I shall be told that either long
before this intelligence was received, or since it has been
received, there has been not a request for explanation,
but a categorical demand that the Danubian principali-
ties shall be evacuated by the Russian forces. (Hear.)
I say if we have undertaken and advised the Porte, so
that the Porte holds her arm and has not attempted to
defend her property, we have made ourselves parties to
these transactions as well by what is doing now as by
what has been done by formal treaties. I cannot be-
lieve, my lords, nor will I allow myself to believe, that
these statements are in all respects correct ; because if
it be true that Russia has assumed the government of
those principalities, has taken possession of the terri-
tory, and committed this aggression upon Turkey, it is
an entire contradiction to the circulars voluntarily issued
to the Courts of Europe, as well as the manifesto, issued
by the Russian general upon entering the provinces. I
am not going to discuss that matter now, of which no-
tice has been given for a future evening ; but I must
say I cannot doubt that the energetic steps to which I
have adverted must have been taken upon these pro-
ceedings, which are the strongest possible proceed-
ings of war. I believe I told your lordships that
when the Russian forces moved into those provinces
the Russian general declared that it was not war with
Turkey. What I have described is of the character
of war, and if you do not say it is war, then I say it is
piracy. (Hear.) It is war or piracy, and I want to
know whether we are in a condition to suffer war upon
such a pretext as is put forward, or to stand by and see
an act of piracy committed upon Turkey 1 (Hear.) I
say, if we are told it is a question of treaties whether
the fleet shall go inside or outside the Dardanelles, a
state of war has abolished all treaties between Russia
and Turkey as far as Russia is concerned. (Hear.)
There does not exist one treaty binding Turkey to
Russia after such an aggression as I have described.
There is no reason for not acting ; and what is the state
of things at home ? We are told, by answers in either
house of Parliament, "we have sent notes." You may
send other notes ; and we are told another note was
sent last Sunday or Monday from Vienna ; but while
you are sending notes the Russian forces are advancing
even beyond the principalities named, and are taking
possession of territories nearer to Constantinople. We
have had news to-day which I gladly term good news.
The news in the papers is that the proposal has been
received favourably at St. Petersburg. But we do not
know what that proposal is, and before we can express
our unqualified satisfaction we ought to know what that
proposal has been. It cannot be tho proposal alluded
to last week in the House of Commons, which to Eng-
land and France was satisfactory, because it only left
Vienna on the Sunday or Monday. This good news is
under advices from St. Petersburg of the 3d inst., and
therefore it is utterly impossible, the proposal leaving
Vienna on the Ist, it could have reached St. Petersburg
by the 3d. The advices from St. Petersburg of the 3d
inst. must relate to some Austrian proposition. We do
not know what that was ; but I am sure, after what has
passed, the houses of Parliament and the country will
consider no proposition satisfactory, if it be not a propo-
sition for the immediate evacuation of the Turkish terri-
tory. Besides this good news, we have news of a different
quality ; for it is stated that the Russian force in the flo-
tilla collected at Ismail has taken possession of the whole
of the inner part of the river. This force consists of
200 boats, 150 being gun-boats. So we have not only
an invasion of Moldavia and Wallachia, but while you
are passing notes and sending couriers, we have an in-
vasion of Bulgaria, and the whole of that great river,
the most important, perhaps, to the commerce of all
Europe, taken possession of on both sides by Russian
forces. These are things upon which, though wishing
to wait with the utmost patience for explanations until
convenient for the Government to make them, and wish-
ing not hastily to say one word which can excite the
public mind on the subject, I find it impossible to re.
frain from asking a question with the hope of obtaining
a direct and very clear answer. I can assure your lord-
ships I believe there is no man in either house of Par-
liament who has a more sincere abhorence of war than I
have, unless it be necessary—l do not say justifiable—
but unless it be necessary for the honour and character,
and essential to the dignity of this country. At the
same time, if we are to sacrifice our honour and charac-
ter, then I say the whole material interests of the coun-
try must suffer. (Hear, hear.) It is therefore, my lords,
that I have taken the liberty of making this statement
before asking the question of which I have given notice.
I wish to know—whether any official information has
been received by her Majesty's Government, leading
them to believe that the statement I have made is cor-
rect ; and if that is the case, what steps her Majesty's
Government have taken, or propose to take, in conse-
quence of the proceedings of the Russian authorities ?
The Earl of CLARENDON—My lords, I am afraid
it will not be in my power to give my noble friend any
answer which materially differs from that which I gave
him five days ago to the same question. I agree en-
tirely now, as I did last week, in everything which has
fallen from my noble friend with respect to the con-
sequences which will arise, both to Turkey and to
Europe, from any permanent occupation or anything re-
sembling a permanent occupation of the principalities by
Russia. But I must again inform my noble friend that
we have no official information of the character which
he has now brought before this house. lam not certainly
prepared to deny that many of the acts to which he has
alluded may have been committed by the Russian Go-
vernment. I have derived my information merely from
the same sources as my noble friend, and in that way it
is stated that there has been a sort of committee of go-
vernment formed for carrying on the business of the
principalities together with the Hospodars. But we have
no information whatever of that kind, and I am sure my
noble friend will agree with me, and I am sure your
lordships will also be of opinion, that for her Majesty's
Government to act upon reports at they arise would be
the height of rashness ; yet in no other way could we
have proceeded in carrying out the measures to which
my noble friend has adverted. My noble friend has said
he believes the Danube has been crossed, and Bulgaria
invaded. I have no reason to believe such is the fact,
but the contrary, because I have this afternoon received

On clause 21,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH expressed his hope that a
competent member of council acquained with home
business would be appointed to aid the Governor-Gene-
ral ; and he spoke strongly of the ignorance of such
business and want of habits of dispatch prevalent in
India.

The clause was agreed to.
On clause 22.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH moved the omission of the
word which was limited to a selection from the " civil"
service the Governor-General's appointment of two
members of the Legislative Council.
Lord BROUGHTON agreed that the Governor ought
not to be fettered ; that he had doubts about the work-
ing of the council, which would become a little parlia-
ment, and which would, he thought, diminish the autho-
rity of the Governor-General in the eyes of the natives.
Another danger arose from the impossibility of keeping
anything secret in India, even the most important dis-
patch, the contents of which almost invariably oozed
out as it was. If we were beginning to govern India in
a new way, the experiment could not stop where it was
now proposed that it should.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE also thought it objectionable
to place the Governor-General under the control of a
council
Lord GRANVILLE assented to the reoval of the
word "civil, which was done, and the clause was
agreed to.
Clauses up to 29 inclusive were agreed to.

On claus 30,
Lord ELLENBOROUGFI moved, as an amendment,
that the Commander-in-Chief of the Forces should be
ex officio a member of the Council.
The amendment, after a brief discussion, was nega-
tived, and the clause was agreed to, as were clauses up
to 35 inclusive.
On clause 36 (reFerring to Haileybury College),
Lord MONTEAGLE expressed his belief that a mere
examination woul prove n unsatisfactory test of
merit, and that incompetenta candidates would succeed
by the process of cramming.
Lord GRANVILLE said that it would be disgrace-
ful to the college if youths who had had a special educa-
tion there could not, nine times out of ten, beat any one
who bad been merely crammed.
The clause was agreed to.
Clauses up to 39 were agreed to.
Lord MONTEAGLE moved the insertion of a clause
providing that there should be no distinction between
covenanted and uncovenanted servants. He desired to
ensure the admission of natives to employment.
Lord GRANVILLE said that tha proposed clause
was framed to contend with an imaginary
Indian would
evil. Under
the present measures, the native-born
be admitted to employment if he could show himself
duly qualified.
The amendment was negatived, and the succeeding
clauses were agreed to up to 43 inclusive.
On 44 (the new clause relating to the salt monoemned this
poly),
Lord ELLENBOROUGH strongly cond
novel interference with the financial system of India.
He opposed it on principle, but also believed that it
would not produce the benefits which were anticipated
to the importer. He hoped that their lordships would
strike the clause out of the bill. India ought to be
treated as a perfectly independent country in matters of
finance.
Lord ALBEMARLE cited statistics to show the
stateto
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read a second time.
and their lordships adjourned at a few minutes after
half-past twelve.

HOUSE OF COMMONS---(YESTERDAY.)
The house re-assembled at six o'clock.
PETITIONS.
Mr. POTTER presented a petition from Limerick agains
the bill for settling the question of Ministers' money in Ire-
land.
Mr. M`CA NN presented a similar petition from Drogheda.
Sir J. SHELLEY gave notice that he would to-morrow
(this day) moved for leave to bring in a bill for the estab-
lishment of a Metropolitan Board of Sewers, and for other
purposes connected therewith. He would make that mo-
tion solely for the purpose of having the bill printed before
the recess.
THE WORK OF THE SESSION.
On the motion of Mr. BROTHERTON, the following
returns were ordered to be produced
" Returns of the number of private bills introduced and
brought from the House of Lords, and of acts passed in the
present session, classed according to the following subjects :
Railways ; roads and bridges ; waterworks ; ports ; piers ;
harbours and docks ; canals and navigations ; churches,
chapels, and burying-grounds ; paving, lighting, and im•
proving ; gaols and other county buildings ; inclosures ;
small debt courts ; and all other bills and acts : Of all the
private bills which, in the present session, have been treated
as opposed bills ; specifying those which have been classi-
fied in groups by the committee of selection; together with
the names of the selected members who served on each com-
mittee; the first and also the last day of the sitting of each
committee ; the number of days on which each committee
sat ; the number of days on which each selected member
has served ; the bills the preambles of which were reported
to have been proved; the bills the preambles of which
were reported to have been not proved ; the bills referred
back to the committee of selection, as having become un-
opposed ; and the bills withdrawn or not proceeded with
by the parties : and of all private bills which in the pre-
sent session have been referred by the committee of selec-
tion to the chairman of the committee of ways and means ;
together with the names of the members who served on
each committee, the number of days on which each com-
mittee sat, and the number of days on which each member
attended.
" Divisions of the House—Return of the number of di-
visions of the House of Commons in the present session ;
stating the subject of division and the number of mem-
bers in the majority and minority, tellers included; also,
the aggregate number in the house on each division, dis-
tinguishing the divisions on public business from private,
and also the number of divisions before and after mid-
night (in continuation of Parliamentary paper No. 574, of
session 1852).
" Acts of Parliament—Return of the total number of
acts passed in each session since the year 1800, distinguish-
ing the number of public, private, and local and personal
acts, and the number relating to Great Britain, England,
Scotland, and Ireland, and those relating to the United
Kingdom.
"Petitions for Private Bills—Returns of all petitions
for private bills deposited in the Private Bill Office of the
House of Commons for the present session; with the name
and address of the agents respectively who have deposited
the same.
" Public Committees—Return of the number of public
committees appointed in the present session, their sub-
jects, and the names of members appointed, and their
chairman ; the number of days on which each committee
sat, and the number of days on which each member served
on each committee.
"Business of the House—Returns of the number of each
of the following motions which have been made in the
house before the order of the day and notices have been
disposed of, or in any committee of the whole house, in the
sessions 1849, 1850, 1852, and 1852-3, viz. :-1. That this
house do now adjourn. 2. That this house, at its rising,
will adjourn till Monday next, or any future day. 3.
That a debate be now adjourned. 4. That a chairman of
a committee of the whole house do report progress. 5.
That the chairman do now leave the chair. And distin-
guishing in each class the number of such motions which
were withdrawn, negatived, or agreed to by the house
or
the committee, and the number upon which there were
divisions.
" Sittings of the House.—Return of the number of days
on which the House of Commons sat in the present ses-
sion, stating, for each day, the date of the month and the
day of the week, the hour of meeting, and the hour of
adjournment ; and the total number of hours occupied in
the sittings of the house, and the average time ; and also
showing the number of hours on which the house sat each
day, and the number of holm after midnight ; and the
number of entries in each day's votes and proceedings (in
continuation of Parliamentary paper, No. 576, of session
1852).
" Public Bills.—Alphabetical list of the public bills
which have been introduced into the House of Commons
during the present session, stating by whom introduced,
or which have been brought from the House of Lords ;
the dates of their several stages in this house, and dis-
tinguishing those which have since become law (in con-
tinuation of Parliamentary paper, No. 575, of session

1852)."
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY moved for the following re-

turns
" Savings Banks.—Return, in continuation of the Bar
liamentary No. 12, of session, 1852, giving, under the
head No. 1, the altered form of classification of depositors'
balances, as rendered by the banks to the national debt
commissioners for 1851 and 1852 ; and, under head N
showing in addition to the detailed statements there given,
the aggregate amount of stocks and securities sold and pur-
chased by the commissioners on account of savings banks,
for each of the years 1851 and 1852, ending on the 20th
day of November.
" Savings Banks.—Return, in continuation of Parlia-
mentary paper, No. 214, of session, 1852, showing in ad-
dition to the detailed statements thereon ven, the awe-
gate amounts under column to 1 to cmn 6 inclusive,
for each of the years 1851 and 1852, ending on the 20th
day of November, and giving under column 5 a detailed
account of the incidental expenses defrayed b
th ey the MI,.
tonal debt commissioners out of the funds of savings
banks." _

sioners.
The clause was agreed to.
On clause 3,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH moved that the time for
the appointment of the Government directors should be
extended, in order to see what men would be appointed
by the Court, and he also proposed to alter the number
of three to that of six.
After discussion these amendments were negatived,
and the clause was agreed to, as were clauses 4 and 5,
On clause 6,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH proposed that all retired
officers of twenty years' service in India should have
votes in the election of directors. This would add about
1,250 votes, and make the whole constituency 3,000 a
number which he defied any one to canvass.
The Duke of ARGYLL reminded their lordships that
they had already agreed to carry on the government of
India by means of the company, which consisted only of
its stockholders. Government had not proposed to
create a new constituency, which would be done by
Lord Ellenborough's amendment.
After some discussion this amendment was negatived,
and the clauses agreed to.
Clause 7 to 12 inclusive were agreed to.
On clause 13 (that imposing the director's oath),
Lord ELLENBOROUGH objected that the oath was
carlessly framed, and that although a director swore that
he would not take any emolument, he did not pledge
himself not to take any promise of emolument, and also
objected to the oath to support the Company's Govern-
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sclause,ionntse,nadhe"ed tatolosbobe
es dd
He
f neeu
of his own, which would bring the parties taking it to a

Agreed to.
Sir G. PECHELL moved for a return of the number of
visitors admitted to see the apartments and pictures at
Ham pton Court and the gardens at Kew, during the years
1851 and 1852, distinguishing the number in each month
(in continuation of Parliamentary paper, No. 685, of ses-
sion 1851).—Agreed to.
TURKEY AND RUSSIA.

Sir J. WALMSLEY said—l have to put a question to
the noble lord the member for London, upon a subject
which is deeply interesting to the people of this country
generally, but more especially to the mercantile classes,
and which I believe also very nearly concerns the dignity
and the responsibility of every member of this house. The
question I have to ask of the noble lord is, whether her
Majesty's Government will, previously to the prorogation
of Parliament, submit to the House of Commons, a state-
ment of the existing relations between this country, Tur-
key, and Russia, touching the aggressive attitude assumed
by Russia towards the Sublime Porte, and whether they
will appropriate a day for the expression of the opinion of
the how upon that =portent imbieot:

Lord J. RUSSELL.—In answer to the hon. gentleman ing, namely, to an account that has been received of the
I hare to state, with respect to his first question, that be- I aeceptancely the Emperor of Russia of certain propo-
fore the prorogation of Parliament, I will give such infor- sitions presented to him from what I may call a congress
mation on the subject of the existing relations between of the great powers sitting at Vienna. The noble lord (J.
Russia and Turkey as I may think consistent with my Russell) holds out no prospect that these papers will be
sense of public duty. In answer to the second question of laid on the table, or that opportunity will be afforded for
the hon. member, I cannot say that I think it would be discussing this important subject--(hear, hear)—and con-
advisable for the public interest that in the present state . sidering the month, and the date of the month, I am not
of the negociations between Russia and Turkey there surprised that the noble lord should have indulged in these
should be any day devoted to a general discussion of that observations. I wish to know, considering this particular
subject. (Hear, hear.) circumstance, whether the noble lord has any objection to
Lord D. STUART.—A rumour of the most important state the nature of the propositions which have been ac
character has been circulated in the public prints of to- cepted by the Emperor of Russia? (Hear, hear.)
day. I allude to the rumour that the Emperor of Russia Lord J. RUSSELL—I cannot at present state what
has agreed to certain proposals which have been submitted propositions have been made to the Emperor of Russia.
to him by the different powers of Europe for the adjust- Before the prorogation of Parliament, however, I will
ment of the differences between Russia and Turkey. I give all the information I possess consistent with my duty.
wish to ask whether the noble lord can state that there is I will not now anticipate that information ; but state at
1; any truth in that rumour, and that we are now nearer to that time as much as is in my power and consistent with
a cific solution of that question than we were afe w days the welfare of the public service. (Hear, hear.)
pa The subject then dropped.
ago.
Lord J. RUSSELL—In answer to the question of my PUBLIC BUSINESS.
noble friend, I have to state that there is a foundation for Lord J. RUSSELL—I wish to state it is not our lams-
i the rumour to which he has alluded—(hear, hear)—and that tion to proceed with the Metropolitan Sewers Bill this
we have just received a dispatch from her Majesty's minis- evening. We will take it to-morrow evening. The Re-
!
at Vienna, which is of a very satisfactory nature. (Hear.) gistra don of Assurances Bill has been before a committee,
The answer which has been received from the Court of St. andit has been recommended by them that a commission
Petersburg is in reply to the first proposal which was should be appointed on the subject. We therefore con-
agreed to at Vienna. I have further to state that the sider that this bill should not be further proceeded with
messenger who was to have gone to Constantinople, and at present.
who, as I said on a former occasion, would leave Vienna
on the 31st of July, did not actually leave Vienna until
the 2d of August ; so that the reply from Constantinople
cannot be received as soon as it was at first expected.

Sir DE LACY EVANS—WiII the noble lord communi-
cate the promised information at such a time as will enable
the house to discuss the question ?
Lord J. RUSSELL— I beg to explain that what I said
was that I would give such information as it would be in
my power to give consistently with my sense of public
duty ; and I think that it will be more satisfactory that I
should give that information the latest moment before the
prorogation of Parliament.

SUPPLY.
The house then went into a committee of supply—Mr.
Bouverie in the chair.
On the sum of 407,6671. being proposed to defray the
expenses of Government prisons and convict establishments
at home.
Mr. HUME rose to ask whether any plan had been
adopted for the carrying out of secondary punishments?
Lord J. RUSSELL suggested, that it would be better
to defer any discussion on the subject till the question
came before them on the second reading of the Transporta-
tion Bill to-morrow.
The vote was then agreed to.
THE MILITIA.
On the sum of 478,7401. being proposed to defray the
expenses of the militia in Great Britain and Ireland,
Mr. S. HERBERT said, he would take that opportunity
of saying that, according to the last returns, the militia
amounted to 62,000 men. The amount of the vote was
larger than was absolutely necessary, but it was necessary
to make allowances for all contingencies. There would,
have to be deducted from the vote about 100,0001. for the
old militia staff, and for non-effective men dying off. He
of complimenting the right
would take that opportunity
hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Walpole) on the complete
success of his bill for embodying the militia. (Hear.) In
every part of the country the authorities had borne testi-
mony to the good conduct of the men, and experienced
officers had been surprised at their excellent discipline in
so short a period, a circumstance which reflected great
credit on the colonels and other officers.
After a few words from Col. SIBTHORP,
Mr. BRIGHT wished to know if it was intended to in-
crease the militia to 80,000 ? The noble lord, the Secretary
for the Home Department, had given the weight of his
authority to the statement that 60,000 Frenchmen were
likely to land on these shores. He supposed that the
80,000 militiamen were necessary to be raised to meet
them. (A
FrenchAlau
laugh.)
officers Now thatonh oaArddmhiirs shipalDunatdatshehDadararae:
nelles,andthat Queen Victoria's
hadictoriheae'sn hderaalukth,wainthd
etnhtahtuosfiatshme,
Emperor of the French,they
w
and as it was not likely that were toas have a Russian
war—he wished to know if the _
to the point stated? It appeared, from
what
to
hbade increasedreeently
taken place, that men could be made very efficient soldiers
in 28 days—such, at least, was said to be the case—for he
was no judge on the subject—(No, from Col. SibthorP )
(a laugh)—and this being so, he begged to repeat his ques-
tion, whether the militia force was to be increased from
60,000 to 80,000, and the country be subsequently put to
the expense of 400,0001. or 500,0001. a-year, depriving the
Chancellor of the Exchequer of the opportunity of still
further relieving the burdens of the country? He begged,
in conclusion, to know, what course the Government in-
tended to pursue in this matter?
Mr. S. HERBERT said it was true that the militia had
shown a great desire to learn the duties of soldiers; but
still it was not possible that they could be as efficient as
was to be desired after a drill of 28 days. It was the in-
tention of the Government to proceed with the enlistment
for the militia. The act gave them the power to raise
80,000 men, but, taking into account the ineffective, the
number to be raised would not exceed 75,000 men. With
respect to the amiabilities which had taken place between
the French and English officers referred to, he was not
aware that that was a reason why this country should re-
frain from the duty of placing the defences of the country
in an efficient state. It was the duty of the Government
to provide an efficient force for the country, and not allow
its numbers to be sent up and down according to circum-
stances. (Hear, hear.) They ought to have a sufficient
force for the purposes of the country, irrespective of our
relations with foreign countries. (Hear, hear.) The in-
crease in the expenses of the country on account of the ad-
dition to be made to the military would not be very great.
After a few words from Mr. BRIGHT, Mr. S. HERBERT,
and Col. SIBTHORP,
Mr. J. DUCKWORTH bore testimony to the efficiency
and character of the militia, and said that he thought barrack
accommodation ought to be provided for the militia. The
billetting system was objectionable in every respect. It
was inconvenient to the soldiers, and was equally so to
the licensed victuallers of the town in which they might
be quartered.
Mr. HUME deprecated the whole system of the militia,
and said it was especially objectionable at that moment,
when there was no cause whatever for an increase in the
defences of the country.
Mr. WALPOLE reminded the hon. gentleman that the
militia teas not raised on the ground of any fear of a
foreign invasion, but Government after Government had
recommended the formation of such a force, as being a
desirable means of defence for the country. That was the
ground upon which the militia force was raised.
Mr. S. HERBERT, in reply to Colonel Dunne, said that
by law the towns and counties were obliged to provide
efficient stores for arms.
After a few words from Colonel NORTH and Colone
SIBTHORP,
Mr. LAING said he did not see any reason for increasing)
the number of men in the militia. He should like to place
upon record his opposition to the increase.
Mr. HUME complained of the increase in our army,
which was stronger than that of France when the amount
of the population of each country was considered. Our
army was 385,000 strong, while that of France was
425,000.
Mr. V. SMITH asked what care was to be taken to have
efficient officers as superior officers of the militia ?
After a few words from Sir J. SHELLEY,
Mr. S. HERBERT said that care should be taken by
providing that there should be a colonel and lieutenant-
colonel commandant ; and when the militia were stationed
in a town where there was a regiment of the line, the co-
lonel of the regiment of the line would take the command ;
and in respect to the question put by Sir J Shelley, care
would be taken that an officer holding a permanent ap-
pointment abroad, should not hold a commission in the
militia.
The vote was agreed to.
The house resumed, and the report was brought up.
DUTY ON MALT.
On the motion for going into committee of ways and
means.

Mr. LAYARD—Am I to understand that there will be
a discussion of the question before the proragation?

Lord J. RUSSELL—As far as the Government are con-
cerned, it is not their opinion that it is desirable there
should be a discussion. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. FRENCH asked the Chief Commissioner of Woods
whether any intention exists in his department to deprive
the Irish representative of those facilities of reference and
communication hitherto afforded by the existing Irish
establishment in Queen-street, by removing from it the
Irish records and officials, to make way for some subordi-
nate department of English administration ?
Sir W. MOLESWORTH replied that a complaint had
been made of a want of sufficient accommodation at the
Irish establishment in Queen-street, and the Board of
Works had under their consideration a proposal for a
removal of that inconvenience. But no kind of determi-
nation had yet been come to in the matter. If the Irish
records and officials should be removed, due care would be
taken to provide for the facilities of reference and commu-
nication on the part of the Irish members.
In reply to a question from Sir J. WALMSLEY,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the minute of the Com-
mittee of Council on the subject of the building of schools
would soon be produced.
THE REVIEW OF THE FLEET AT SPITHEAD.
Mr. OLIVEIRA said he wished to put a question to
the right hon. baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty.
It was well known that a grand review of the fleet at Spit-
head was to take place on Thursday next, and he under-
stood that it was the intention of the authorities at the
Admiralty to afford facilities to members of Parliament
for assisting at that interesting spectacle. He wished to
ask the right hon. baronet what was to be the extent of
those facilities, and whether hon. members would have an
opportunity of taking their ladies with them ?
Sir J. GRAHAM—The question which the hon. gentle-
man has put to me is hardly of a Parliamentary—(a
laugh)—or of an official character; but the house will,
perhaps, pardon me if I give the best answer in my power
to that question. I have received her Majesty's commands
to place at the disposal of each of the two houses of Par-
liament a ship of war for that occasion. Acting in obedi-
ence to these commands, and seeing that this house is
composed of a larger number of members than the other,
the ship placed at the disposal of the members of the House
of Lords is one of 950 tons, and somewhere about 280
horse-power, while the ship placed at the disposal of the
members of this house is one of nearly 1,200 tons and 500
horse-power. There will be employed at the review about 30
ships of war, and with that number there will be very few
ships which can be appropriated to the accommodation of
any portion of the public. The ship to be placed at the
disposal of the members of this house will contain, I
believe, about 200 gentlemen. But I have to add that
those members who wish to be present on the occasion will
have an opportunity of putting down their names, and if
to-morrow, at four o'clock, it should appear that there are
a greater
number of those names than 200, I will endeavour
to provide additional accommodation. (Hear, hear.) I
think that the house will agree with me that if provision
is made for the accommodation of members themselves, it
can hardly be expected that any should be made for their
ladies. (Hear, hear.) I am afraid that greater difficulty
will be found in providing means of conveyance for per-
sons anxious to assist at the review, from London to Ports-
mouth, than in providing ship accommodation for them at
the latter place, But arrangements have been [made by
which a special train will be provided for the conveyance
of members of the two houses of Parliament. That train
will leave the Waterloo station at an hour so early on
Thursday morning, that I am almost afraid to mention it.
(A laugh.) It will leave at half-past six o'clock, and will
arrive at Portsmouth at about half-past nine o'clock. I
believe that ample accommodation will thus be provided
for the members of the two houses of Parliament.
Mr. HUME—The next best thing would be to provide
that the railway should take them free. (A laugh.)
Sir J. GRAHAM.—The arrangement will be the very
reverse. Each member will pay for himself. (A laugh.)
Captain SCOBELL.—WiII there be a special return
train for members of Parliament ?
Sir J. GRAHAM—Yes.
THE DEBATE ON THE NUNNERIES QUESTION.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved that on Wednesday next the
Government orders of the day should have precedence
until three o'clock.
Mr. BOUVERIE said he thought it would be better
that the Government orders should have precedence
throughout the whole of the day, and that the words
" until three o'clock " should be omitted from the motion.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said he regretted to find that the
noble lord proposed to appropriate to government business
the only day in the week which remained at the disposal of
independent members. (Hear, hear.) The result of the
adoption of that motion would be, that it would be impos-
sible for them to have a decision at all in the present ses-
sion upon that question of the nunneries which had already
been so frequently under their consideration. He had no
hesitation in saying that he should prefer the proposal of
the hon. member for Kilmarnock to that of the noble lord,
because while it could only lead to the same result, it was
one of a fairer and a more reasonable character. But he
should be no party to what he considered would be a most
unjust interference with the ordinary course of business in
that house ; and he should, therefore, take the sense of the
house against the motion of the noble lord.
Mr. CHAMBERS said that there would be less diffi-
culty in acceding to the proposal of the noble lord, if he
would afford facilities for the termination of that discus-
sion on some other day. An hon. member, who, like him,
had brought before the house a question of that character,
had serious responsibility imposed upon him, and could
not consent to the indefinite postponement of the decision
of the house with respect to it (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that the ground of his motion
was, that they were then in August and not in February
or March. It was manifestly desirable that they should
then proceed with that business only which they could
really conclude ; and he need hardly say that a motion for
a select committee on the condition of nunneries could lead
to no result at the present advanced period of the session.
The hon. member for Hertford should recollect that they
had not then to discuss the bill he had introduced ; for the
motion for the second reading of that bill had been set
aside by the decision of a majority of the house. (Hear.)
Mr. SPOONER would prefer the whole subject were
postponed to having it brought forward at 3 o'clock in the
afternoon. He altogether dissented from the views of the
noble lord • and ho should say these were mere attempts
on the part of the noble lord (J. Russell) to put a stop to
a discussion which he dared not meet. (Loud cries of
" hear, hear," from the Opposition.) The noble lord had
of:his vacillation on these points.
hear)—
a not enter their
lately given evidence
(Hear, hear.) The Charitable Trusts exempted from
Catholics—(hear,oushil
(Hear, hear.) Was this course consistent with
convents."
inquiryandth e nobleaall
beqluordestns
oowf Roman y
the spirit lately shown, the spirit which dictated the fa-
mous Durham letter. (Cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh.")
Was this course consistent with the language employed by
the noble lord on the occasion of the motion of the hon
member for Mayo to despoil the Irish Church of its te
rauties hoped (Cheers from. the Opposition.) He hop
ron. friend would take the sense of the house on the his
ques-
tion- (Cheers.)
Mr. HUME suggested the postponement of the question
until after full inquiry by a committee.
Mr. HUTT doubted the sincerity of the hon. gentleman
the member for Warwickshire, in bringing
forward the
question at the present period, when nearly half
inde-
pendent members had left town. (Hear, h the ,
ear.)
Mr. LUCAS could assure hon. gentlemen that he or his
friends did not shrink from discussion
they were anxious to have the subject; on the contrary,
the house. One reason why he brought before
wished the subject to be
brought on was, that he mihtg
call on the hon. member for
North Warwickshire to account for
by him in that house, in certain speeches made
which he charged hon. gentlemen
with whom he 'Mr. '
k . Lucas) acted with unparliamentary
proceedings. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE rose, but was met with loud cries
of " Chair" and " Order."
The SPEAKER intimated to the hon. gentleman that he
should confine his observations to matters of explanation.
MA merely NEWDEGATE said he intended- to explain.
On the occasion referred to by the hon. gentleman (Mr.
Lucas), he (Mr. Newdegate) merely quoted the speech of
Dr. at a dinner in Ireland, as also the speech of the
hon. member for Mayo.
Mr. BOUVERIE thought no gentleman present believed
that if the debate were taken on Wednesday it could be
terminated on that day. What was the use, then, in en-
tering upon it?
Mr. MAGUIRE was most anxious for the full discussion
of this subject, oven on the 10th of August, as an op
orf-
tunity would be afforded of dealing with the statementseso much
those gentlemen who had allowed themselves to
bled away by their imagination.
The house then divided—
For the original motion.
... 52
jority for
......
Against ...............................
Ma
TURKEY AND RUSSIA.
Mr. DISRA
ELI rose and said,—l take this opportu-
nity of making inquiry with respect to q tie s a
has been *dilated to already in the earl? part of this ersa

Mr. EDWARD BALL moved, " That, in the opinion
of this house, the duty on malt toperatea injuriously to
the community at large ; that it greatly tends to in-
crease the cost of animal and cereal food ; that it pro-
motes drunkeness, by withholding beer from the la-
bourer in his work, and driving him to the public-house ;
and that, therefore, it is expedient that the excise regu-
lations relative to malt be relaxed." Having alluded to
his previous efforts on this subject, when a motion for the
reduction of the malt duty was defeated in consequence
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer speaking against time,
and thereby enabling Ministers to muster their forces, the
hon. gentleman said he never contemplated the total re-
peal of the duty, but in his opinion some relaxation of the
duty towards the producer was a fair and reasonable pro-
position—one that would be regarded as a boon by the
agricultural body, and would prove in a very slight dogeee
detrimental to the revenue of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, while it would confer a benefit on society at large.
Meat was now dear, but if the malt duty was reduced, the
farmers could produce meat at a cheap rate, successfully
compete with the foreign feeder, and place the food of the
people before the people much cheaper than they were now
able to procure it. The farmers ought to be permitted to
prepare their malt in the way they thought best, and to use
barley in whatever manner they pleased. They were the best
judges of that which fattened animals. At such seasons as
thepresent there was a large quantity of iuferiorbarley ; but
it was well known that it did not pay the expenseof malting
while it was charged the same amolste.yoe_fdosift&lebest quality.
and
to the same excise restrictions as bua
It should be borne in mind, in considering this question,
that there existed no longer a redundancy of labour, but
quite the reverse. Strikes for an increasedlrate of wages were
general, and with no class of labourers was the amount of
remuneration smaller than with the labourers in the field,
who were obliged to work at all hours and in all weathers,
and to whom cheap, good beer, at his own fireside, would
be matter of great advantage. In carrying out the prin-
ciples of free trade, it was the duty of Government to per-
mit British farmers the same amount of freedom which
foreigners enjoyed. The approaching harvest, he feared,
would be seriously defective. The yield of wheat pro-
mised to be not only bad in average but deficient in quan-
tity from the effects of blight. For these reasons he was
particularly anxious that the reduction of duty and other
relaxations for which he contended should be made, believ-
ing that if his request were acceded to it would be the
means of keeping our labourers ou our own soil, and of
spreading contentment and plenty throughout the land.
Mr. SPOONER seconded the motion.
Mr. CAYLEY expressed his full concurrence in the state-
ments of the hon. member for Cambridgeshire. Indeed,rehe.
conceived his arguments were so unanswerable that he
0,
commended the right hon. gentleman the Chancell7, ~E.l
the Exchequer not to attempt answering them, for,___:
did so, notwithstanding his great ability. and arrHe
ingenuity, he would be certain to fail. align' '
hoped, however, that between this andne
subject into
right hon. gentleman would take
the
whole
lof the comes-
t session the
consideration, and endeavour to snake suonso
&early
shown
sions, the advantage of which had been
,
by the hon. member for Cambrid.,geciihiEQUEß assured his
The CHANCELLOR of the E.K
hon. friend that he had not the sleohftetshteihntoenn.tmioenmobfeervfeonr
endeavouring to answer the speec
t
Cambridgeshire, and for
among other reasons it
t
had been already answered in
,
anticipation. Hon. gentle.
men were aware that what he had to say on this subject
had been said by him
on a former occasion—(laughter)—
and though, generally speaking, he thought it very bad
taste for a member to praise his own speeches, still, he
conceived he had eminent reason to be satisfied with the
result of his advocacy, It was admitted by the hon. mem-
ber for Cambridgeshire, that if a division had taken place
on the occasion alluded to, before he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) addressed the house, the motion for reducing
the duty would have been carried ; but that such was the
force of his reasoning ,his simplicity— (laughter)—and perfect
ingenuity, that by the time he came to the close of his ob-
servations, there was a majority against the proposal.
(Laughter.) After circumstances such as these, he could
not, with the greatest possible respect for the hon. member
for Cambridgeshire, renew the controversy, or reiterate ar-
guments which had already proved so successful, but he
would promise to give the subject all the consideration that
had been asked for it.
After a few remarks from Mr. SPOONER and Sir J.
SHELLEY.

I.lr, BALL withdrew his motion, esproPia& bimAtif

*,` ia qUet 74.0