The Sun.
London, England, 1838-06-22 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FIR DA Y, JU.NE 22, 1838.

blishnaents of this kind generally ; but the 34th clause was
that upon which this discussion would arise; and he thought,
therefore, that they would save time by adopting at once the
amendment of the Noble and Learned Lord (the Lord Chan-
cellor). If these establishments were to continue to exist,
and be carried on under separate authorities, it would be at-
tended with great additional expense. His Noble Friend
could afterwards object to the 34th clause if he thought proper.
The Earl of GL ENGAL L said that he hoped it was not
intended by the amendment of the Noble and Learned Lord
that the Commission should have the controul over the ap-
pointment of the officers to the Houses of Industry, who bad
hitherto been appointed by the Grand Juries ; that certainly
seemed to be the effect of the clause, as proposed to be
amended by the Noble and Learned Lord.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that in order to have
any controul over the establishment, he must have the power
of appointing and removing its officers.
The amendment was then agreed to, and the clause as
amended was ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 4 to 10 were then agreed to.

On clause 11,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH observed that this clause was
in point of fact an alteration of the Poor-law Act for England,
and to obviate that objection he proposed to insert after the
word " Commissioners," the words " acting in Ireland."
The amendment was agreed to, after a short conversation,
and the clause as amended stood part of the Bill.

Clauses 12 and 13 were then agreed to.
Clause 14 was agreed to, with an understanding that it
would be amended upon the bringing up of the report.
Clauses up to 33 inclusive were then agreed to.
On clause 34 being proposed,
Lord ELLENBOROUG H proposed, as an amendment,
that in the gradual reduction of foundling hospitals due regard
should be had to the provision which should be made to the
objects of charity at present resident therein.
The clause thus amended was then agreed to.

On clause 35,
Lord ELL ENBOROUGH moved, as an addition to the
clause, that it should not be lawful for the Commissioners
after the expiration of thre2 years to expend any money upon
the building- or extension of workhouses, without the consent
of the majority of the Guardians. He moved this amendment
because, as the Act was to be final, it would prevent any
change being made by future Commissioners, whose views
upon the subject might differ from those entertained by the
present Government. The provision which he proposed
would have the effect of carrying out the Act in future in
the spirit in which it was enacted.
The addition was accordingly made, and the clause agreed
to, as were also clauses to 38 inclusive.

Clause 39 was struck out.
Clause 40 was agreed to.

Clause 41,

The LORD CHANCELLOR proposed the addition of
these words, " that when any workhouse shall be fit for their
reception it shall he lawful for the guardian to take order for
relieving and setting to work therein such destitute persons
as by reason of old age, infirmity, or sickness shall require re-
lief: also all orphans or destitute children, and in the next
place for such persons as they may consider otherwise entitled
to relief."

Clause 41, as thus amended, was then ag,reed to.

Clause 42.

The Marquis of SALISBURY said that as they now found
that in various parts of England the workhouses, notwith-
standing their name of bastiles, were full of able-bodied men,
who preferred residence in them to outdoor employment, the
residence in it could not be considered a sufficient test of
poverty. In Ireland the case would be worse, as the scale of
living was so low there that any workhouse diet must be an
improvement. To obviate this inconvenience, he should move
the insertion of the following clause, " provided always that
it shall be lawful for the Board of Guardians, on receiving an
able-bodied destitute labourer into the workhouse, to enter into
an agreement with him either for the period of time during
which he is to be employed or the amount of work to be done.
And in case such able-bodied labourer shall refuse to perform
such work, or shall depart from the workhouse 13,•fore the
period so agreed to, it shall be lawful for the guardians to
make complaint before any Justice of the Peace, who shall
have power to punish such offender by sentencing him to hard
labour in gaol for any period not exceeding three months."
Lord PORTMAN said that the Noble Marquis should re-
collect that if the pauper was to be punished for idleness, he
should be paid for his labour. If there was no payment there
could be no contract, so that an additional clause, providing
for the payment of such labour would b 3 necessary to make
this effectual. Besides, he did not see, if each workhouse was
to have only twelve acres of land, how work could be found
in sufficient quantity for the paupers. For these reasons he
should oppose the clause.

The IY.ike of RICHMOND thought that the English plan
would answer better than this clause. By that plan the relief
given in winter was treated as a loan, to be recovered in sum-
mer out of the man's wages.

The Earl of WICKLOW hoped that if this clause was in-
troducee the work contemplated woull be exclusively of a
public nature. Ile. hoped that no jobbing would be per-
reittcd.—( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of BRADFORD opposed the clause.
After some further conversation,

Tile Lai of SALISBURY said that he should not press
his Clause further at present, but move: it on the bringing up
of the repuit„
The clause was then withdrawn, and clause 42 agreed to.
Clause 43, with some verbal amendments, suggested by the
I'YYMer4l4l,l);\'or(sZin':, for the racing b7ele'ct'oral districts.

Earl FITZWILLIAM said that a great injustice would
be perpetrated by rating by electoral districts. It should be
done by townlands, becausa every one at all acquainted with
Ireland knew that a townland was generally the property cf
one person, whereas electoral districts often comprised several
distinct properties. In consequence of this if the present mode
was persisted in, one man might have to pay the expense
which should properly fill on the property of another. The
Noble Earl then proposed an amendment, altering " electoral
districts" to " townlands," which was agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR suggested as an amend-
ment that the power of forming or altering the unions should
not be vested in the majority of the Guardians until three years
after the passing of the Bill.
This was also agreed to.
The Clause was then agreed to.
On Clause 45 being proposed,
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved the addition of a
proviso, empowering the Commissioners under the Act, at the
request of the Governors of any Hospital or Infirmary sup-
ported by Grand Jury Assessment or Parliamentary grant, to
inspect such Hospital or Infirmary from time to time, and if
necessary to afford grants of money, to be raised under this
Act, towards the maintenance and support of such Hospital or
Infirmary.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH objected to the amendment.
He thought such application of the money would be diverting
it from the purposes to which it was originally intended to be
applied under this Bill.
The Duke of WELLINGTON thought this proposition
would lead to increased expense. There would, in effect, be
an hospital attached to every Union, and to apply the money
to the support of hospitals and infirmaries in the manner pro-
vided for by the amendment would cause a considerable aug.
mentation of expense. He had, however, no objection to that I
part of the amendment which gave the Commissioners a power
of inspection with regard to those institutions.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had no objection to with-
draw the latter part of the clause, if it did not meet the assent
of their Lordships.
After a few observations from the Earl of WICKLOW,
the latter part of the amendment was withdrawn, and that part
of the amendment giving to the Commissioners the power of
inspection was agreed to.
The clause as amended was then agreed to.

On clause 46,
The Earl of FINGALL proposed the addition of a proviso,
copied from the " Gaol Act," the ith of George IV., to the
effect that in all cases where Chaplains were to be appointed
to poorhouses the Clergymen of the Established Church who
officiated within the parish, if duly qualified, and the Dissent-
ing and Roman Catholic Clergymen officiating within the
parish in which such workhouse was situate, if otherwise duly
qualified, should in all cases have the preference of such ap-
pointment.
The Earl of WICKLOW concurred in the principle of the
amendment, but thought it would be better to substitute union
for parish.
The Marquis of SLIGO approved of the suggestion, and
moved the substitution of the word " union" instead of " pa-
rish."

The amendment was put and negatived, and the original
proviso was agreed to, and added to the clause.
The clause, as amended, was then ordered to stand part of
the Bill.

Clauses down to 53 inclusive were then agreed to without
any amendment.
Clauses up to 63 inclusive were then agreed to, after which
the House resumed, the Chairman reported progress, and ob-
tained leave to sit again to-morrow.
The Oxford and Great Western Railroad Committee was
then named, and their Lordships adjourned.