The Sun.
London, England, 1853-03-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 12, 1853.

the committee last session. It had been stated that the
opinion of the committee was, that the legislature was
prepared to decide upon the affairs of India at the close
of the session. Now, so little was that the case that
the resolution moved by a noble friend near him was
framed expressly to exclude and negative that conclu-
sion, and simply to state that in the evidence before
them there was a tendency to show that the principle
of the government of India had been productive of good
consequences. He thought it would be the greatest of
all calamities to legislate in the present session as to the
permanency of the government of India. (Hear, hear.)
An eminent writer had charasterised " rash haste as the
mother of delay," and any "rash haste " in legislating
on the subject of India would not only be "the mother
of delay" but most detrimental to the good government
of India. (Hear, hear.) The powers already entrusted
to the government superintending the affairs of India
during the last twenty years had not been an adequate
protection against the evils which had been described,
and Parliament ought not to rely on so frail a founda-
tion. There was no change better considered or more
calculated to meet the evils which existed than the enact-
ment introduced into the last charter for the appoint-
ment of a law commission, for the purpose of improving
the general administration of the law in India. But
what happened The provision was found inconve-
nient, for it imposed a restraint on the action of the
governors of India. They said, "We mean to apply to
Parliament ' for a repeal of the clause. They, however,
never did apply to Parliament. But what did they do ?
They practically repealed the act, by ceasing to fill up
vacancies until by lapse of time the provision constitut-
ing the legal commission expired. (Hear.) By the act
as it originally passed, whenever a vacancy occurred the
court of directors were bound to return four candidates
for the civil service of India, acid the best of the four was
to be chosen. But in 1837 they obtained an act of a
very singular character. When the bill was introduced
into the House of Commons, it enabled the board of
directors and the Board of Control jointly to suspend the
operation of the provision, and to recommend only one
candidate for every vacancy. The bill was amended in
their lorlships' house, and in place of its being a bill
authoriing the suspension of the power, the words " to
suspend or revive" were inserted, thereby showing that
it was intended to revert to the original act. But from
1837 to 1853, that power had never been exercised, and
the coguany was noW left without the wholesome re-
straint imposed by the act of 180.. (Hear.) Last year,
when the question of the law was under consideration,
it was sated that full authority had been given to the
East Inlia Company to pass Mr. Macaulay's code, or
any other they might think fit ; but up to this time it
did not appear that any effectual step had been taken on
the subject. He did not see that any approach had been
made towards meeting the great difficulty arising from
the present mode of appointing civil servants as judges
in Indis. No legal education was provided. When a
man was appointed to a judicial office, it was utterly in-
defensftle that, under any circumstances, he should be
removed from that judicial office, and, at an increased
salary, no appointed to a political or revenue office. The
fact was, that under the present system men were ap-
pointed to the appellate jurisdiction in India who had
never presided in a tribunal of the first instance. It
was, as had been formerly said, like teaching young sur-
geons by making them practice living dissections. If
Parliament intended to do its duty towards India, he
trusted they would not pass any permanent act during
the present year. (Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHTON said he saw no reason whatever
why Parliament should pass a bill fixing any particular
number of years. It appeared to him that any act on
this subject ought to be like any other act of Parliament,
liable to be repealed whenever it should be thought ne-
ce'sary. The reason for fixing stated periods in former
bills was this. The East India Company were a great
commercial company, in possession of most important
vested interests, having large assets ; and in the act of
1833 it was thought proper that a certain term should
be given them to realise those assets, and wind up the
great concern with which they had been so long
entrusted. A bargain was, therefore made between the
then Government and that great commercial corporation.
But now the East India Company would cease to have
any such privileges. They would cease in fact to be in
possession of any one character entitling them to more
than an ordinary act. (Hear.) •He had not heard this
proposal mentioned before, but having in the course of
the day named the suggestion to one of the highest
Indian authorities-Ta gentleman formerly connected
with the Indian government, and latterly with the home
Government—that gentleman said, " I see no objec-
tion to it, and moreover I proposed it to a noble lord
myself in the year 1832. At that time, no doubt, the
East India Company had not wound up its concerns ;
its commercial character had not been put an end to ; it
had large assets, and it was only in consequence of this
that I did not make the proposal to those who had the
drawing up of the India Bill." (Hear, hear.) But no
such reason existed now. The East India Company had
now no claim upon the country or upon Parliament.
They had only the right to ask Parliament whether they
had so conducted themselves in the government of those
great territories as to entitle them to a share in their
future government, as trustees for the Crown. (Hear.)
No doubt a great quantity of fresh matter was rising up
every day. The three petitions which had recently been
presented contained materials for long and searching
'examination, and the more he considered the subject the
greater were the difficulties which presented themselves
to his mind. With new information came new lights,
and, so far from any one of the points being speedily
settled, there were various matters on which the best

more than those of youngsters on their first arrival in
India, and that changes of employment took place in
rapid succession without reference to the aptitude and
ability of the parties, the consequence. being that
civilians were often found at the head of offices and
courts of the budness of which they knew little• or
nothing. He feared that it must be admitted that this
grievance had existed, and to some extent still existed.
The petitioners concluded with prayer that such
changes might be effected in the arrangements for sup-
plying the public service in the civil department as
might be considered desirable, and particularly that
inquiries might be made into the nature and number
of the public employments in India, and the salaries
attached to them. That was a prayer which un-
doubtedly deserved the most serious consideration, and
he would call upon their lordships to endeavour to find
some principles by which they might be guided on that
point. He had always held that the • best form of go-
vernment was that which afforded the greatest facilities
for the discovery of superior abilities, and the employ-
ment of them in the public service. But in the anoma-
lous situation of India there was this very commanding
principle, which, in his opinion, overruled all others-7
namely, that it was absolutely essential, if we desired to
preserve our dominion over that country, that every
person in the employment of the Government should
have a deeper and a nearer interest in England than he
had in India. It was absolutely necessary to prevent
anything approaching colonisation, for colonisation was
the same as separation, and it was necessary to pursue
the same means in preserving our dominion which we
had employed in acquiring it. But he was by no means
sure that these apparently conflicting principles might
not be united. He should object to giving the Governor
of India the power of selecting any person whom he
might think competent, and placing him in the highest
office under Government. That system would, un-
doubtedly, lead to much intrigue and improper conduct ;
and, above all, it would conflict with the great principle.
that all persons employed in India should depend more
upon England than upon India. But he saw no objec-
tion to a modification of the general rule in any peculiar
case of great fitness for high office,• and the Governor-
General, with the previous permission of the home autho-
rities, might be permitted to place a person peculiarly
qualified in a high office, where he might perform good
service to ,the State. If such an arrangement were
adopted, the Board of Control ought to have the power
of overruling the decision of the Court of Directors as
fully as it did now in all political matters. When he
(Lord Ellenborough) was in India there was an uncove-.
nanted servant of tilt comPany, Mr. Greenlaw, the se-
cretary of the marine board, with whom he had had
occasion to communicate in reference to the expedition
to China,-and whose zeal, ability, and cordial devotion
to the interests of the public service had alone unabled
the expedition to be dispatched in time. That gentle-
man he (Lord Ellenborough) would have recommended
to the home authorities for promotion had he remained
in India. There was also another gentleman, of supe-
rior abilities and trustworthiness, whom, after a little
longer experience, he might have recommended for
similar promotion. The representations of the petiti-
oners on the subject of police were well worthy of consi-
deration. The petitioners statorfhat every landholder
was at present obliged to keep bodies of men armed, in
order to defend his property against midnight gangs ;
and as it was the custom of some dishonest indigo planters
to sell their crops to different persons, it became necessary
in some cases for the buyer to keep an armed force on
the field, in order to secure the produce. With regard
to the spirit licenses, the petitioners stated that the
selling of them was entirely contrary to the prejudices
and habits of the people, and that, in pursuit of revenue,
the Government was demoralising the population. He
(Lord Ellenborough) had always objected to a reduction
of the duty on salt, unless the reduction were very great,
but on three occasions, recently, small reductions had
been made, amounting to about one-sixth of the tax, oc-
casioning a loss of about one eighth of the revenue, or,
200,0001. He doubted whether those reductions of the
tax had been felt at all by the people, and he believed
that more good would have been effected if the money
had been devoted to the improvement of the great lines
of communication in which the body of the people were
interested. The petitioners recommended a considerable
addition to the Legislative Council, and especially
from the commercial class. The least satisfactory part
of the business of the government of India, was cer-
tainly that which was connected with the legislation.
The Legislative Council had not time to attend to their
important duties, and the frequent replacement of one
officer by another, was highly objectionable. He thought
that in many respects alterations might be made with
advantage in the constitution of the Legislative Council.
We ought especially to avoid giving it a local character;
the same legislation was not equally suited for the pro-
vince of Bengal and the other provinces ; you could not
legislate in the same manner for men who never left
their homes without a sword, and those who never left
them without an umbrella. (A. laugh.) With respect
to the home authorities, the petitioners were most de-
cidedly opposed to the present double government of the
Board of Control and the Board of Directors, and, in

regard to the latter, the petitioners stated that there was
no security for its members being qualified for the high
functions which they had to discharge. He (Lord Ellen-
borough) was much disposed to agree in this opinion of
the petitioners. They expressed a hope that the facts
which they stated in their petition might suggest the ex-
pediency of making arrangements for the government of
India for a shorter term, and, in the-first instance, for

only one year. (Hear.) lt was usually said, in reply to
complaints of the government of India, " Oh, it works
well." It might indeed work well for. those who were
employed in its administration, but the question was, did
it work well for the people of India, and did it present
any appearance of stability and Our (-4„_
vernment had unquestionably conferred great advan-
tages upon India, in the extinction of the Maharattas
and other tribes, and in the establishment of internal

thinker and the closest investigator might justly doubt.
(Hear, hear.) The noble earl, on presenting the last
petition, expatiated on the question of education, and
...id ..n that point we were stopped in limine. And
why ? Because ir you educate the people of India be-
yond a certain extent the people of India will cease to
belong to England. He quite agreed with the noble
earl, and that opinion was entertained by Sir Thomas
Monroe, Sir Charles Metcalf, and other eminent au-
thorities on that subject. He had mentioned these mat-
ters for the purpose of showing the enormous difficulties
which existed on the subject, and trusted that the sug-
gestion which he had thrown out would receive the con-
sideration of the Government.

peace. But all these advantages had been conferred by
our military successes, by the courage of our officers and
troops, and by the enterprise and genius of our generals.

But, he would ask, what did India owe to our civil go-
vernment ? We had indeed effected great alterations,
and the changes which had taken place in the distribu-
tion of property under our rule had probably been
greater than were brought about in England by the
Norman conquest. But when he had gone through
the provinces, and seen the ancient roads, and tem-
ples, and mosques, and all the other records of the

Lord GLENELG said that the bill of 1833 was
founded on an agreement and compromise between the
parties, and unless mutual sacrifices had been made it
would have been almost impossible to effect any change
in the government of India. Now, with respect to the
question of education. It was the universal opinion in
England that it was the duty of this country to com-
municate to the natives of India the best education in

great government by which we had been preceded, he
owned that he had felt humiliated. (Hear.) What we
had now to endeavour to discover, was a form of Go-
vernment by which a good administration might be
given to India. We should also endeavour to obtain
the assistance in the government of India of the most
able and trustworthy persons ; and he cared not whether
we resorted to the principle of election, or to that which
he believed would be a more certain means of attaining
the object, namely, that of judicious selection. But let
them, as far as possible, exclude ordinary men and men
of mediocrity from the government of India ; and, above
all, let them exclude jobbers • and let them endeavour
to have the government of India conducted with know-
ledge, ability, and probity, and with a regard to the
interests of the people, and not alone to that of the
rulers. (Hear, hear.)

our power. (Hear, hear.) This was our duty and our
mission. It was the vocation to which we were called.
We were bound to perform our duty unflinchingly, and
in this as in every case it would be found that if we per-
formed our duty, consulting only our duty, we should be
best consulting our safety. It had been truly said that
the natural condition of man was progress, and he was
convinced that the scruples of any legislator would not
retard that progress. It was in our power to make
that progress formidable and dangerous. It was not in
our power to nullify it, and say with respect to education,
" Thus far shAl it go, and no further." (Hear, hear.)
Was it our bounden duty, was it our best safety, to
pause, to scruple at a certain point, and say, " Be this
thy great circumference—be these our bounds ?" No ;
but to say, " We are called on to do our duty both
to God and man, and at any hazard we will execute that
duty." (Hear, hear.) It was impossible to retard the
progress that was now slowly taking place in India, and
if ever the day should arrive -when the native would be
in a capacity to govern himself, it would be a most
glorious day for England. We would be looked at with
into a
wouldthe j
more affection, with greater good feeling, with more
gratitude, and establish a bond and security against any
dangergovernment
e w o u
lwhichd
notof India,
now w
ei n otb
enter
but
mt n could
quiunstevse atndiotv.nerto(Ht
toe the art,hfheueatuurrn.e).
happy state of the law throughout that country, which
afforded matter for the deepest consideration. Provi-
sions were introduced in the act of 1833 expressly to
meet that commission provided that there should be one
law throughout the whole of India. The law commis-
sion was directed to frame a general code, and the same
law was to apply to the English as well as the native
subjects of her Majesty. A general code-was framed for
the'purpose, and it was a rule wisely laid down that if
an Englishman went into that country he must not ex-
pect to be one of a privileged class. Now, the fact was
that the Europeans of that vast territory were subject
only to the Supreme Court, except in cases of petty as-
sault ; and it was an absolute denial of justice to the
natives to compel them to take their cases for trial at a
distance of 1,000 miles. (Hear, hear.) At the present
moment the natives did not possess the protection of the
law. The act to which he had alluded was intended to
correct the evil. It was corrected so far as the law com-
mission was concerned, but why it had not been cor-
rected in fact and reality it was quite impossible for him
to say. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of DERBY had no intention of occupying
the time of their lordships for more than a very few mo-
ments, for it was not his wish to enter into anything
like a discussion of topics with which he confessed that
he was very imperfectly acquainted—topics which had
been treated by his noble friend who had presented a
petition with a thorough knowledge of the subject, and
which had been enforced with a power and ability which
must command the respectful attention of their lord-
ships. Although he could not say that, as far as his
limited information went, ho was prepared to acquiesce
in the sweeping conclusions at which his noble friend
had arrived, yet he had listened with great respect
to the statement of evils and inconveniences which
his noble friend had vouched to a great extent on his
own authority. (Hear.) The object for which he alone
rose was to express his concurrence, to a great extent,
in what had fallen from his noble friend on the cross-
bench, and to ask the noble earl at the head of her
Majesty's Government to reconsider his determination
of legislating permanently for the affairs of India during
the present session. ,He frankly admitted that at the
time when, filling the station which the noble earl now
occupied, he had the honour of proposing a committee
of investigation into the affairs of India, he did so in the
hope that the inquiries of the committee might be so far
advanced this year, that it might be competent to the
Government, guided and aided by their labours, to deal
with the question in a satisfactory manner. The little
progress, however, which the committee had made,
owing to the immensity of the subject, and the con-
' stantly increasing demands on their attention, led him
to the conclusion that if the Government legislated
during the present session they must legislate wholly
irrespective of the labours and opinions of the committee
in that and the other house of Parliament. He believed
that the committee had only heard evidence on two
topics, and it was perfectly open to them to
call for
other evidence which they might think necessary
on that limited portion of the inquiry, and it even
was clear

Lord BROUGHAM said that the subject to which
his noble friend had drawn the attention of the house

was of the greatest possible importance, and imposed a

duty upon the Government and Parliament of this
country to apply to it all the resources of their know-

Ledge and talents. He was not prepared to say that he

agreed in the conclusions at which his noble friend had
arrived after his experience in India and subsequent re-

flection at home, but he was prepared to give the sub

ject his best attention whenever it should come before

heir lordships, _ and to approach it with the feelings

which his noble friend had expressed, namely, a desire
to consult for the good of the people of India, and
thereby to consult for the true glory and honour of Eng-
land. An appeal had been made to him (Lord Brougham)

in consequence of a. remark that had fallen from his
noble friend upon a recent occasion, when this subject
of India had been broached, and he had been called upon
to vindicate the local administration of justice from the
charges which had been brought against it. He might
answer that appeal by repeating a statement which he

had made on a former occasion: that upon a comparison
of the results of the appeals from the English and from
_ _

the native courts in India to the Judicial Committee of
Privy Council, and disposed of by that court, it ap-

peared that in the case of appeals from the native courts,
extending ovei ten years, there was an average number
of two reversals for two affirmances, while the appeals
from the English courts showed seven reversals for one
affirmance. But he must be permitted to say that it
was by no means so certain as might be supposed from
these figures that the administration of justice was supe-
rior in the native courts to what it was in the English
courts. The real cause of the discrepancy was that in
appeals from the native courts, when questions both of
law and of fact came before the committee, the court
being a state of comparative ignorance of the man-
ners and habits of the people, was inclined to sup-
port the decisions of the native judges, unless manifestly
erroneous. (Hear, hear.) But in dealing with appeals
from the English courts there was no such leaning
at all on the part of the Judicial Committee. (Hear.)
The comparative scantiness of the appeals showed that
expense occasioned by delay and distance made the
appellate jurisdiction capable of affording a very insuffi-
cient remedy for the natives. The noble lord had truly
described the law taxes by which the suitor was so
grievously oppressed. This was an enormity so prodi-
gious that without the most positive demonstration of
the fact it would appear utterly incredible, and, as had
been said, it could only be explained by the financial
embarrassment under which the government of India
was labouring. What Bentham said sixty or seventy
years ago in his immortal work—the greatest ornament
to his great fame as a lawgiver and as a jurisconsult--in
his protest against law taxes, was perfectly demonstrable,
and the way in which he had ettablished his point had
never been answered, for in point of fact it was unan-
swerable. He said, " It is a common remark, that he
who objects to a tax is bound to
willinglyfititute for law taxes any
onfbs man can devise." (Hear.)
acuedepat
tshubesetoitnudteitionl.
member of the committee
up stairs, would take the liberty of stating that thcpeti-
tion presented by the noble earl comprehended heads of
s
inquiry into which the committee had, as yet, had no
ptr;iis
Txis n_Ttc
that
Eypa
°Alt eu,tain dEay,l witaa s
I
aModmnyLe ioaotrntdhtshewmere
. means of inquiring or examining at all. (Hear, hear.)
. ; It opened a vast ground for further examination, which
s it was not only necessary to enter upon but to exhaust
• before it would be possible to determine in whose hands
, the government of India ought to rest. He. would take
. this opportunity of remarking that an impression foreign
s to the fact had gone abroad relative to what passed in

that further information might be given which would
induce them to re-open it. He understood the two com-
mittees divided their inquiries into eight heads, and only
two had been gone into, namely, the constitution of the
government at home and the naval and military estab-
lishments of the Indian service. If, as her Majesty's
Government had said, they were prepared to legislate
permanently, he hoped they did not mean to legislate
piecemeal. Least of all could they, with proper respect
to the labours of the two committees, legislate on the
constitution of the home government without a full in-
quiry into the other topics which were left for investiga-
tion, because, after all, concurring, as he did, in that
which must be the opinion of every man among their
lordships, that the object which Parliament had in view
framewas to such a form of government as would pro-
duce the greatest contentment, and advance the mate-
rial prosperity and moral progress of India—such a form
of government as would work best for the benefit of the
inhabitants of India, and hot for the inhabitants of this
country merely—looking, he would repeat, to that as
the object which Parliament had in view, and the ques-
tion being whether it was, desirable or not to continue
the existing machinery of Indian government, he con-
tended it was impossible to escape from this conclusion,
that the propriety of continuing or modifying that system
of government must depend upon the working of that
government, as proved by experience in the course of
the administration of Indian affairs. The government
of India was 'now practically on its trial, whether uprn
the whole it had worked beneficially for India or not.
There might be theoretical anomalies in its constitution,
but the great test and trial of its merits was, whe-
ther the administration of the government had pro-
duced benefits commensurate with, or greater than,
the advantages derived from any other system.
Inquiry must be made into the financial, the political,
the judicial, and the moral system of the government,
and in solving the question whether that government
should be continued in its present shape or be modified,
the test must be—what had been the practical result of
our administration of Indian affairs under all those dif-
ferent heads on which -the committee had not even com-
menced their labours ? He confessed his opinion on that
_ _

and he remained in that important office just three weeks
On the fall of the Government of the noble lord, the right
hon. member for Stamford was placed in the position of
President of the Board of Control, and he remained in
office until the change of Government before Christmas,
when he was succeeded by the right hon. member for Hali-
fax. He believed all those gentlemen were very well
meaning, but nobody ever believed that they knew more
about India than their neighbours. (Hear, hear, and a
laugh.) No person, so far as he heard, had ever discovered
that they paid particular attention to questions connected.
with India ; and yet, though a man had been Secretary-at-
War for several years, or Chancellor of the Exchequer, or
anything else, by mere party routine he was put at the
head of the Government of India, or in any other office to
which it might suit the convenience of those making a
Cabinet to appoint him. (Hear, hear.) Not only had
there been four presidents of the Board of Control within
the time he had mentioned, but they had actually had six
secretaries, all of whom had seats in that house. (Hear.)
The house would see there was no continuous government
in the Board of Control, and there was naturally a great
imlisposition on the part of persons coming casually into
that office to grapple with a great question like the govern-
ment of India (Hear, hear.) There was an inquiry going
on by a committee, on which many eminent men were
sitting and he understood that at the commencement of
their labours the right bon. gentleman the member for
Stamford divided the inquiry into eight heads or branches,
and placed at the beginning the circumstances and method
of the home Government. He (111 n .Bright) was not a
member of that committee, and therefore could only speak
from hearsay. He understood that the first branch of the
inquiry had been pretty much gone through ; bat the
house would see that that was precisely the least impor-
tant portion of the inquiry, because there was no well-
informed member of the house who was nut acquainted
with the condition of the home Government—the theory
and means of acting the private wrangles between
Leadenhall-street and Cannon-row, and the previous com-
munications, by which an opening quarrel might be
avoided, in order that discredit might not be thrown on
the whole system. (Hear, hear.) All that was the last
thing that was necessary to be inquired into, yet that was
put first on the list ; and he understood it was considered
that for the purpose of legislation further inquiry was not
necessary, and that legislation might be forthwith coin-
, menced. (Hear, hear.) That. which would describer the
true character of the Government was to be found in the
condition of the people that were governed, yet the whole
condition of the natives of India was left entirely un-
touched. (Hear.) There had been nothing in the shape
of adverse evidence produced before the committee, but
' there were different witnesses that might be examined, and
to enable them to .form an opinion whether the Indian
government or the Board of Control was good or bad, it
was right andjust that impartial witnesses should be heard,
and that they should not confine the investigation to the
evidence of persons who were connected with the Indian
government, and had been for the most part of their
lives in the service of the East India Company. (Hear.)
He begged to call the attenion of the house to the petitions
that had been presented from various parties in India—
some of them European and Christian inhabitants, and
some of them native inhabitants of thepresidencies. (Hear.)
It was said that some of the witnesses impugned that tes-
timony, and said the opinion of the natives was not
be taken ; but if the house acted upon the evidence of
men of that character, they would find, in regard to their
government of India, that they had made a most fatal
mistake, and they would discover it at a time when
they would be without a remedy. (Hear, hear.) In a pe-
t tition from the British and Christian inhabitants of Bengal,
after referring to the question of internal government, it
was stated that it would be expedient to make the future
arrangements of the government of India for a shorter
term of years, and at first for one year. He would also
read a petition from the native and other inhabitants of
the Madras presidency ; and he had received a letter from
an intelligent person in Madras, stating that if an inquiry
were set on foot, he would undertake to establish the
statements contained in that petition. (Hear.) In that
petition it was stated that "whilst your petitioners regret
that, owing to the want of sufficient time, and the insuper-
able difficulty of getting access to the financial documents,
they were unable to state the vast number of major and
minor grievances to which they are subject under the
operation of the existing system of government, they en-
treat that those they have imperfectly touched upon may
meet with the patient consideration of the house, as well
as that an opportunity may be afforded of substantiating
the facts they have stated before an impartial commission
of inquiry and investigation, assembled in India,
composed of persons in and out of public employ, and
Europeans and natives conjointly." (Hear, hear.) He
had another petition, from the native merchants, ship-
owners, bankers, and other inhabitants of Bombay, which
concluded in these words :—" Your petitioners pray that
the act now existing be re-enacted for one year only, so as
to permit time for the important negotiations which seem
so indispensable in the construction of a new constitution
for India, especially as patient care and attention are not
likely to be bestowed upon them if immediately or hastily
gone into during the political excitement now prevailing
in England." He (Mr. Bright) presumed that the peti-
tioners referred to the change of Government last year.
There was another-petition, from the Bombay Association
and other native inhabitants of the Bombay presidency, in.
which "they humbly pray your honourable house to em-
body, in any measure of legislation which comes before
you for the government of India, the principle here set
forth, and that the house will not rest content, but will
adjourn the final settlement of the plan for the Indian
government until all available information from trust-
worthy sources be laid before yea." It was also proposed
that they should limit the existence of the act for the
future government of India to a period of ten years, so
that the interests of so many millions of British subjects
might be more frequently brought under the consideration
of the British Parliament. He could refer to other evi-
dence in favour of inquiry, and showing a desire that
there should be an alteration in the existing govern-
ment of India, It was stated that the law was ad-
ministered in the company's courts under circumstances
that were productive of great delay, great expense, and a
virtual denial of justice. It was said that the police of
India was in such a state that there was little security for
either life or property ; that the police themselves were
little better than the dacoits or gang robbers that infested
the country ; that the taxes were not levied in a manner
that was the least injurious to the industry of the country;
that they were extremely onerous, and that reform was
necessary; and, to illustrate the bad condition of the roads,
it was stated that within 35 miles of Calcutta, ou the high
road to the north, a bridge was washed away in 1847, and
had not yet been repaired—(hear, hear) ;—that in conse-
quence of the state of the roads it was impossible to intro- •
duce articles brought from abroad into the interior of the
country, or to bring from the interior the produce of India;
and it was complained that the railroads in course of being
made were proceeding with dilatoriness, from want of
energy, complexity of management, and hopelessness of
result, a statement that could not be made of a railway in
any other part of the world. (Hear, hear.) The state of
irrigation was considered infinitely less satisfactory than
under the old government of India ; the canals and reser-
voirs were allowed to go out of repair, and during the last
few years a famine had occurred in a particular district
that might have been prevented if the Government paid
ordinary attention to irrigation, by securing the vast mass
of water that fell in one season of the year to sustain the
productiveness of the soil continuously through the whole
year. (Hear, hear.) He begged to call attention to a let-
ter which appeared in the Bombay Gazette from Surat, in
which the writer described the means that were taken 'by
officers of the Government to prevent native servants of
the Government, and Europeans too, from bringing any
information before the Brttish public. (Hear, hear.) The
condition of a people was the true index by which to judge
of the character of a government, and he begged, in refer-
ence to that subject, to read a statement from the Bombay
Times of the 14th of April, 1852. It might be that these
were merely statements published in a newspaper ; but if
similar statements regarding any county in England
appeared in a London newspaper, they would either meet
with a denial or measures would be adopted to prevent the
repetition of them. By a statement in the Bombay Times
—"The population was described as living in the utmost
penury. It was impossible, it was said, for roasters to
remain as they were, and that from year to year they must
continue in a downward path, unless the present system
was arrested and reversed." An inquiry had been made
into the reasons why cotton could not be grown in India,
and the report of the committee, on which there were
three East India directors, was unanimously agreed to. In
that report they made the following statement with regard
to the general condition of the people, and ho begged the
house to bear in mind that all the witnesses were servants
of the Government, and being so, he considered they gave
their evidence in a manner that was not in the slightest
degree tinged with any unfavourable bias for the Govern-
ment, but they gave it honestly and honourably, and in a
manner with which he was satisfied. The committee,
in their report, appealed to the evidence of almost every
witness, to show that the condition of the cultivating
population was one of extreme poverty—that they were
obliged to apply to the money lender for the means of
obtaining seed, giving security for the loan on the growing
crops, which, on coming to maturity, were disposed of to
him at a price more regulated by his will than the standard
of the open market, and that the cultivator often paid for
the loan 40 or 50 per cent., or even more than that. How
was it that the money lender obtained that power over the
could
the
et
peobvtaeirtnytheantduhseuiripioeuesseraesete
of
ff
the
population w?
erHe °nowt
population cultivating the soil, to whom the money thus lent. And whatever might be said as to the money
lenders being the cause of the mischief to
they were only the secondary cause, thecultivator,
reduced to misery by the unaccountable Population being
vernment. (Hear.) He would mention neglect of the Go-
authority of the hon. member for Gnil _ aonother fact on the
examined for two days before the df rd, who had been
a question that was put to the irmmittee. In reply to
amount the Indian Government h n,
member, as to the
teen years—since the renewal ofd expended during- four-
-1834 to 1848—in substantial i the Charter Act—from
the people, on roads, brid ea improvements for the good of
that nature, he stated gti, canals, tanks, and works of
1,400,0001. or 100,000/. e amount so expended was
chaster had expended, hea Yea going the
town
of
Mall-
on improvements fora was say, double the sumo
hon. member was askedPepulation of 400,000 Persons' b the Indian Governmentthe amount of revenue obtained y.
during those fourteen years, and
he (Mr. Bright) did t
precise answer the
hon. gentleman gave, but
the
eh Indian Govern-
ment showed that, cf.
316,000,0001, from thethe papers
. of t
tiring that period,
If any man e,dmitted that fact they had extracted
of India. (Hear, hear.)
population .
to be true,
ground for doubting whether it would be wise afforded a fair
itin that house
continuance of
or the Government to propose a permanent
rigidin-
bout a more
the present Government of India, wit
d. There was also the
quiry than had yet been established.
1842,
when Sir Robert
Peel
of the revenue of India. I
he referred to the Peel brought forward his budget, . there might
- quite aware
he was
reve-
nues of India, stating that
d immediate connection between
appear to
be
no
direct
anthose of this country, but it would
the finances oflndia and
our
of relations with India, said the
deration of
be a superficial
which,view should omit not got
account of
right hon. baronet,x Bright) had not go any
this subject. Her. 9 but he would state to the
'nee 184 ,
es of India a
d ' n iu the nine years pre-
the revenues
.which ha arise
house the deficiency
rho
_e
_thency
amounted t02.,400,000/.;
1849. In 1840
.d fi
1842, to 1 700 0001. ; in 1843, to
ceding
.„ .1 700,000/. ; In ,
in 184,ilviL 1) :-'fia 1844, to 770,000; in 1815, to 740,0001. ; in
leo,"'', i ' -- 000/. ; in 1847, to 907,0001. ; in 1848, to
146, anni.A) ---'
and in 1849, to 2,300,0001. ; there being a deft-
-1,90°,-- 00,000./. in the ten years from 1840 to 1849,
defi-
ciency of 1 ,
we ; and, with the exception of one year, there had
inelus
of eve y ar since The house was well.
rY e •
been a deficiency
aware that for fro years past it had been constantly asthat
sorted
by the Indian Government lndia could supply
otton for the manufactures of this country. Would the
house believe that during 1817, 1818, 1819, 35 years
ago,
we imported from India a larger amount of cotton on the
average of those three years, than we imported in 1849 or
1852. The average from 1817 to 1819 was 184,000 bales;
in 1842, 182,000 bales ; and although in 1850 and 1851 the
imports were somewhat larger • in 1852 the had fallen to
less than 162,000 bales. (Mr. ki-
...angles : Thye '
price.) The
hon. member for Guildford referred to
but was not the price the question of price
of cotton from India and from
America subject to precisely the lame causes of fluctuation.?

point was strengthened by what had fallen from his no-
ble friend over the way (Lord Broughton) who was for
so long a period President of the Board of Control. His
noble friend had reminded their lordships that in the new
.legislation upon which the Government were about to
enter, it would not be necessary to limit the ope-
ration of the bill for ten or twenty years, but that Parlia-
ment had an opportunity of legislating for India just as
might be done with any other act of Parliament, which
might be passed in one session and repealed in the next.
But if this were true, what was to become of permanent
legislation for India ? Was it wise or statesmanlike to
pass an act, and then to repeal it ?

Lord BROUGH'TON— You leave it like any other
act of Parliament.

The Earl of DERBY admitted this to be the case,
but if it were wished to make a measure a monument of
Parliamentary wisdom, it would not do to legislate this
year, and call the measure permanent, and then to come
back next year for the purpose of repealing this act of
legislation. He was sure that no member of the Govern-
ment could have in this matter any other desire but what
was common to their lordships, namely—that their legis-
lation should be creditable to the country and to Parlia-
ment, and should give satisfaction to the people of India.
Upon this species of legislation, differing happliy from
any other, it was hardly possible that party struggles
could be brought to bear, and surely the inconvenience
of a temporary act was not to be measured for a single
moment with the paramount inconvenience of legislating
—not only without information, but absolutely in repu-
diation of those committees which Parliament had ap-
pointed to obtain information on the subject. If he
might venture to suggest any course—which he knew he
had no right to do—he would suggest the introduction
of a continuing act, not exceeding four or five years, but
for a term sufficiently long to enable the committee to
complete the investigation, and to enable the Government
to weigh the recommendations of the committee, provi-
sion being made that Parliament should be at liberty to
legislate before that time, if it thought proper, instead of
having recourse to an annual renewal, which would un-
settle the minds of the people of India. By taking a
continuance of the present system for a period of five
years, with a reservation to Parliament of power to deal
with the question, he thought there would be the best
chance of solving the great and difficult problem with
which Parliament would have to deal, and of legislating
in a manner which would not only conduce to the in,
terests of the people of India, but would redound to the
honour of the empire generally.

The Earl of ABERDEEN deeply participated in the
hope expressed by the noble earl, that we might arrive
at the result which would prove most beneficial to the
subjects of the great empire for which we were about to
legislate, but he could not agree with him in thinking
that it would be desirable to introduce a continuing act
with a term of four or five years. Of all the suggestions
which he had heard, this appeared to him to be the least
adapted to effect the object desired. He (the Earl of
Aberdeen) had heard that the committees of both houses
had arrived at a clear opinion that the inquiry had been
completed so far as to enable the Legislature to deal
with the question of the home government. Though the
committee of their lordships' house had not expressed a
decided opinion, yet he understood that the inquiry was
closed so far as related to that portion of the inquiry,
and lie felt that Government were competent to deal with
it without embracing the whole number of heads into
which the committee had divided the subject of inquiry.
The petition which had been presented no doubt com-
prised very important matter for inquiry, and detailed
many grievances which were worthy of their lordships'
attention. Their lordships would be justified in giving
this petition their most serious consideration, but when a
committee was now sitting for the very purpose of in-
quiry into those topics which had been urged by the
noble earl, and when, as he understood, the judicial
system in particular was under the consideration of the
committee at the present moment, he confessed that it
appeared to him to be rather inconvenient, and indeed
irregular, to go into those topics into which the com-
mittee were inquiring. He had heard a great deal of
the lamentable government of India, and the noble earl
had said that he felt humiliated when he compared the
public works which we had executed with those left be-
hind them by our predecessors. He confessed he thought
that an insufficient test of the merits of a Government.

He would as soon draw an inference from the pyramids
of Egypt, and conclude that their builders were superior
to us in moral qualifications. He believed that the Go-
vernment of this country had been attended with great
and extensive blessings to the people of India, and that,
as compared with all former governments, we could have
no fear in putting ourselves forward. It was still our
desire to increase and to extend those blessings, and he
confessed that, as the result of the inquiry now carried
on before the committee, he hoped that the Government
would be able to produce a measure which would tend
materially to improve the government of India. He
believed it was necessary that the present system should
form the foundation of any future system of government,
though it might be susceptible of some modifications.
It was too early to express any opinion about them, but
he must protest against what had been said by the noble
earl about a continuing act.
The conversation here terminated.
Several bills on the table were forwarded a stage,
and their lordships adjourned at a quarter before eight
o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTERDAY.)
INDIAN AFFAIRS.

Mr. WILSON having moved the adjournment of the
house at rising until Monday next,
Mr. BRIGHT said he had given notice that he would
put a question as to the course which the Government
would take with respect to the future government of India.
He believed the house would agree with him, that at this
particular juncture it was scarcely possible a more import-
ant question than this could come before it, and he felt
himself justified in alluding to it as one of the representa-
tives of that constituency which was undoubtedly more
deeply interested in the proper solution of the question of
the future government of India than any other constitu-
ency of the United Kingdom. (Hear, hear.) Another
ground was this—that in the year 1848 he had obtained,
and presided over, a committee for the purpose of inquiring
into the obstacles that prevent the growth of cotton and
the development of industry and cultivation in India, and
in the year 1850 had brought before the house a proposi-
tion to send a royal commission to India for the purpose of
investigating on the spot what were the obstacles to an ex-
tended cultivation of the raw material of the greatest
manufacture of this country in India. (Hear.) That com-
mission was refused by the Government of the day ; but
he was able to say most distinctly that it was approved of
by many most distinguished men in that house. It was
strongly approved of by Sir Robert Peel, who spoke to him
about it both before the motion was brought on and after-
wards. It was approved of by the right hon. gentleman
who was now First Lord of the Admiralty ; it was ap-
proved of by Lord George Bentinck ; and it was not, he
thought, disapproved of by the noble lord who at the time
was at the head of the Government ; but it was opposed
by the Indian Government and the President at the time
of the Board of Control. Having made those efforts to
obtain an inquiry, he felt justified in asking the Govern-
ment not to be precipitate in any legislation they no
dertook, for although. an inquiry had been refused, *twlll "
appeared to be necessary by not less than three 1 since
appeared that an inquiry should take place. About two ago the noble lord the member for thede.ity of Lunde],
announced that the Government intended to
°of appointthe future
a
committee preparatory to the consideratione
government of India ; but the noble lord went out of
office just at the moment the committee Was about to be
nominated, in the month of February of the last year. On
the accession to power of the Governmentrue of Lord Derby
the committee was nominated, and sat during the remain-
der of last session. And d • this session, when the Go-
vernment of Lord Aberdeen legsucceeded that of Lord Derby,
the inquiry was still considered necessary, and the com-
mittee during this session resumed its labours. (Hew). hear.) He considerec, it a most unfortunate thing f?
India that its Government
that house, was one of
, so far as it Was represented
nilkr
and he was afraid
of the most fluctuating, and uoncerw
to an incapable character.. mean incapable as the incapacity of individul.ials,
to the particular •
hear.)in the
Had circumstances of its constitution.
year the house observed
had,
been changed
the President of the
that w did not
but are
Board of Control
In the
iitituttun.
m(oHntehas:
n e ged no
less than four tithe President
beginning of February in the last Ye!!!... and he would
of the Board of Control was Lord Broollgtlfcan awls, ex-
gay nothing of his administration 1 1"
cept that he was one of the most
id
r bim they had Mr. Fox
_i.conented and somnolent
of statesmen. (Laughter.) -P-.lvu
Maule (Lord Panmure) so Preadent of the Board of Control,