The Sun.
London, England, 1838-07-20 00:00:00

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to ovet the immediate difficulties with respect to the arrears
of the Irish Church. Ile quite concurred in the opinion that
there must have been great blame somewhere to render such
a measure necessary ; but, no matter where the fault lay,
things were now in a position that required an immediate
remedy. He did not hope that the vexatious question would
he settled by this grant—it would be merely adjourned.—
(" Hear, hear," from Sir J. Graham.) He knew it would be
impossible to keep the Irish people insensible to the real state
of things in their country—he knew that no contrivance could
make them approve of a Church which, in Rome diocese, was
alien to the er,ed of 45 per cent. of the population —( Cheers
from the Ir6ll Members)--but he earnestly hoped that the
pre,,it ar ra n eiuerit would put btf for a 1011!. period any
tlrr di,sa tis, ction. He believed that the great ',boucle now
exiiting to a tquisfactoQ arrafigemont teas the great prejcdiee
existing. in this country ; but be had the strongest confidence
that, as the truth always prevailed, every succeeding day
Would diminish the force of those prejudices, and they might
ultimately come to the discussion of this question under such
hvAurable circumstances as must lead to a satitfactory con-
clusion.
Air. HAWES rejoiced sincerely to hear the sentiments
Just expressed by the Nol le Lard, necause they assured him
that at least one Member of the Cabinet adhered to the prin-
elPles on which that Cabinet was framed.—( Hear, hear, hear. )
yO(Mr (Mr. Hawes) entertained a great respect for the Noble
rd who had originated the present proposal, but he had a
dzSty to perform, and that was to resist the proposed applica-
tion
of the public money. The people of Ireland would never
e edaftio 'sfied until they attained true and practical religious
frem,

Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose to explain. He had every
reason to suppose from the manner in which his proposition
Had been heard that it would have proved satisfactory to both
lid" of the House, and, therefore, did not expect the re-
proaches which had been levelled at him. With respect to
the new course, which it had been said he had adopted, he had
before told the House, that be felt if he continued to intro-
duce the appropriation clause into the Bill there would be no
Probability of its passing into a law.—( Hear.) The Hon.
Member for Lambeth could easily guess what the fate of the
Bill would be if the appropriation clause were adhered to.
The practical question for Government to solve was, whether
they should say, " We will not swerve from the course which
We have pursued, but continue year after year to bring in the
'rune Bill, certain of its rejection, or whether we shall intro-
duce a measure, calculated, in some degree, to alleviate the
evil, and at the same time meet with the concurrence of the
liriuse. For his part, he thought the latter was the best
course for his adoption, and he did not see in acting as be had
acted how it was that he laid himself open to the animadver-
sions of the Hon. Member for Lambeth.
Mr. LANGDALE rose amidst loud cries of " Divide."
He would vote for the grant if he thought this measure was
likely to be conclusive. When a final settlement of the mea-
sure was to be made he was desirous that ample funds should
be provided for the maintenance of the Established Church
in Ireland—( Hear, hear)—but if there appeared a surplus he
thought it should go to other national and beneficial purposes.
The settlement, he would repeat, ought to be a final one, or the
money would be paid in vain.
Sir B. HALL rose amidst loud cries of " Divide." He
said, if Hon. Members near the Bar were so anxious for a divi-
sion, and desired to prevent a free discussion of the important
subject then under consideration, he would at once move
the adjournment of the House.--(Cries of " Hear, hear.")e
The question was one of too serious a nature to be stifled
in the manner proposed by them, and nothing should prevent
him from giving his opinion upon it in any manner he might
think proper.—(Hear.) He fully concurred in what had
fallen from the two Hon. Members who had preceded
him, and having recorded his vote in the year 1833,
When a similar resolution was before the House,
against the grant of money to the clergy of Ireland,
be should vote with them on the present occasion,
as no arenment had been advanced and no reasons assigned
Why a different course should be pursued now. The Noble
Lord, as stated by his Hon. Friend near him, had taunted
some Hon. Members who took a course adverse to the Go-
vernment for not having expressed their objections to the
grant before that evening. He must say that he did not
consider that it was very wise or very considerate on the part
of that Noble Lord to do so. He must have known that many
Members were now in the House vsho formed part of the Par-
liament of 1833 ; and it might naturally be supposed that
those who voted in the minority then would take the same
view of the matter now that they did at that period. Circum-
stances remained the same, excepting that the people were
Placed in rather a worse position, because, instead of a loan of
"e million, they were now called upon to give up po-
sitively about 740,000/. and to make another grant of
the remainder of the million.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
But what opportunity had been afforded to make any objec-
tions? The plan was first proposed by the Gentlemen opposite
on Saturday ; it was agreed to by the Noble Lord on the Tree-
a"vY bench, and that evening was fixed for the discussion.
The
earliest possible moment had been taken by them to
!IPlain tilde sentiments, and there was no ground for the
'tent of the Noble Lord below him. He rejoiced at hearing
the speech of tae Noble Lord the Secretary at War ; he was
glad that the opinions entertained in that respect were not
merely entertaiteed by the Noble Lord as a Member of the
Government, but that they would be placed upon record, and
10 trusted the tin:te would soon arrive when those opinions
wouldinne be acted upon. and form part of the policy of a Govern-
The policy pursued now was of a very questionable
nature,
,and the Nolele Lord (Lord John Russell) had
g
htvis
speech
,
cause I.:1r alarm in the latter part of
he had intimated that he should
adapt his cou'rse forto such measures as he thought would be
17thri;:d ; but he hoped that the Noble Lord would never give
own opinions in deierence to these of his opponents.
Inodthat nd
Independent of the present resolutions a Bill had been passed
O,ISe. whereby a municipal franchise had been granted
te?etlhe,iPaecoele of Ireland—it was well known that great shore-
"n.s been made in another place, and it would be too
bad if when lion. Members had given their support to Go-
vuejonn L m,o
ent for Use lower franchise, if they should be called
support tie Bill in its altered form according to the
ews of Hen
Gentlemen opposite. As regarded the pre-
Sent greet of .rnone)' he consideted it unnecessary. It was an-
loitelvieerdiestalment 01E7 were called upon to make, and he be-
Positio many
more vvoold follow ; and seeing no change in the
those
of circumstanes, and reteining the same sentiments
ite_rtinst he recorded upon a former occasion, he should vote
eel the resolutions.
Mr
tl • • VILLIERS said there was no ground to. hope that
therefore 'l'ttietis;hrte would prove as, adjustment of the question, and
jtsed.nonthee'atthat he was averse to the grant. If the ob-
he su .r Irish tithe payer was not to the amount, but to
thy'Pelicatiot, of the tithe, whore was the rational hope that
l'resent
rn
provideo
efarsure would be a renal adjustment ? Did this
an application of the tithes which would
morebseatisfectory to the Irish people ?—( Hear.) Why
thee vote t
Nee particulnalreY without some prospect of success, and
Was so deficient' Y why
vote it at a period when the revenue
1"e o.prornot• that no advances could he made for the pur-
ThOni tion, Ing education, increasing the facilities of com-
Per"ellent and the several other great plans of national im-
'a> ho le Hear.) The mere effect of this clause would
Was it jof a holing for resistance to the payment of tithes.
41f! ineff,et,i; to this country to call upon it to pay a sum for
purpose. The people of England, the great body
disseeters
he pa„ee and a large portion of Churchmen, objected to
say if.
rra of Church-rates. Whet would the Irish people
to be tnnx
,att t were done away with, and that they were about
and 'u
ucl. make up the amount.—( Cries of " Hear, heas,,,
that thee'
stit-%") It was a.case exactly in point. He hoped
_he 4%1 of morality in England and in Ireland was
n'''ney of En,',lllo.Ped no Irish Member would take the public
coetinue to a' Inc'. and at the same time say that he would
aatate for the abolition of tithes.
'Clack t
lek C°
thI"EL 14 had never heard a more unfounded
~,tlntueolua4in at tbade ce the people of Ireland by the Hun.
ist4, "
, show who last adetressed the House.—(" Oh, oh 1")
lieed in a few esords that the attack was utterly
and unjustifiable. It was not the people of Ire-
-F. ere], :). Insisted upon the maintenance of an Established
nee ne.(."l that country. It vas the people of England who
jPon and where, he would was the ustice of
people of England to pay for what they insisted
f the up..--( Cries of ..1-s'ear, hear," and laughter. )
for tll.l'ennie of England would insist upon having a Church
the
e, minority let then, satisfy diet.... wish. but let them pay
land 1-)te al-o. In a word, the Established Church in Ire-
-164,1" en English luxury, for which they called upon the
aose,,Peeple to pay. He repudiated, with infinite scorn. the
"f pt' 1r that it was either unjust or immoral to ask the people
tes pay
for
the Church which they forced upon
said tn i" t even though they said it was for her good. It was
..) a
easure F ought not to contribute the money, as the
to try weta d not prove a radical one. Was it woe th while
iejiment at all? Was the history gf the tithes
fl3vgotteti:ee
'could ne Tories and Whigs were aereeti that things
1101,,,,r:i,1g‘0 'ln as they were atpresent. 'Whee the Right
the for
B tronet the Member for Launceston was Secre-
.. y or Ireland, the He
he brought in a Bill similar to the one before
Rouse. „tedsrld it was sanctioned by those on his side of the
'rot e
proYpo:itliduneurable Members sanctioned the injustice.
Selit "Ciuvernmen" of the Right Honourable Baronet the pre-
go nu
as
they
acceded, Wing that things could not
payment ~ireaare in Ireland. By the Bill of 1835
ir in the erst instance by the present. Bill,. and he (Mr.
Ile could urnlerstaiudit his duty to demand such a provision.
elligiblp ass entire opposition to the Bul. That
would he int
The Bill would be el. obut this partial opposition was not.
t his ( niollient pavi4tahva;.l even as an experiment without
Iv IR in lrked with ter blood!, ',nears. The history of tithes
exrliest period. It had be..unc
iviettiee on both sides from the
71st inet , feluniee Iseti:n9,eause esf creating seventy-six
risli Par, lament, and the tint.; For thee forty years of the
s.e.iglit years viol e Union, the
to tithes had been
!lumtered occasionally ; itt"re oorel4srsdoade.nt-it
mitilgtahl
viol(eunctw.e: but it was sure to rise
larir a time le e repressed by
it",l it) art.-) v:/ resistance_
hear. ) Both sides of
1.11": House we.-e now agreed as to
t.t3/4i
nee tir of
should
osome see
et tol
con-
part, re, and the clue sdon waszhsettlome
trstsil, and ma..., as they
xperiment.--(
uesvt7onto though
wt hoiunlkd
Feu r, hear.) He drd mar, the success of
that the ereerime tit would succeed, even
tfohre ahri-s
objection
some still re-
tt'imr: should he paid, for th original
arrange-
For his part he a ishe'd to enter i
'nem.
ti of the question. He had s.si
i to see the expe-
fc,r ehrosrscoo,nsfiodoetr.
eZet.l,t made, but not without arnemell!gvethaeleamrrbears. It was
the aU91 was a large one, but let lit:
4,..c"nolint they would hove topay next'yerst' ertillery Il d Hear, 'oee •.nre an hear.) There sees no eca."
Le„Y...!,i,t.,:vt!otltiihealudii_rg the sore, There must be either coo_
or
d they must either refuse the Bill, or a;;ern.
clause.