The Sun.
London, England, 1853-06-17 00:00:00

4PERIAL PARLIAMENT.

lIONT, ~________
.-Q, OF COMMONS--(YESTERDAY.)
abe 1,8
kr. 1141 ER took the chair at 4 o'clock. One fiIINN presented a petition from Bath, in
4 t ocean penny postage.
141 AND PRESENT GOVERNMENT AND
ka 1,.-14, IiEOGII.—EXPLANATIONS.
aaLtoe4ntE°G/I.—Mr. Speaker, in rising to make the
ba,te , of which I have given notice, I am sure I shallf
the hk lo vain the indulgent attention of both sides of
l'Atlfl"hear hear) —whilst I endeavour to defend
tkkry -'enat charges impeaching my veracity and dero-
14t illY personal honour. (Hear, hear.) I have
late:n 'l.ence, because I have observed that no. matter
4 alwoY ue our individual or party conflicts, this house
1'444;1' prepared fairly and candidly to listen to •
1441 a I,lll!,wh_.ich any one of its members may he driven to
at 'lndication of his character Sir, lam not wi.ith.-
% e,,,„ . , • .
t,t, , eviction that discussions of this nature are ilc
tar!) trietts, and disagreeable to the house. (Hear,
,Itthla„ 414 not without the conviction—to mo a most
ta'eek,o-'t not
altercations of a personal naturee
1/44(1, ,Iten arisen between the representatives of Iron-
lieti 4qesr, hear.) But this I wish to impress
.ullpho
''oa ta,e! of the house, and I hope that justice will
am etil •la this respect, namely, that in this case
' t'
4gre'er—(hear, hear)—that I have neither soughtt
14icated this cause of quarrel ; that it has been
epmu.
kr of nutter circumstances which I do think evera,-
tmhem
*a Let ', house, when they are fully explained to .
t4aetel,,,eve are.ilsither consistent with fair play nor with
44t-..;',.' which are conceded to every political oppo-
4kat • ulell aro never denied by any generous man toh ann.
lakbeitclivithial. It will be in the recollection of hot. kat,
„..rk that on Friday last, in another place, a d
'ia,t'i7rrea in
,„ Which my name was much brought. into
11tall'_ 4° that discussion and the object of it it is noty
kl a i3:l:4tentin to allude further than may be necessary
144_, Nection to the issue raised between myself
sea.
14
tZle lord the member for Coleraine (Lord Naas.) For
btle,ll‘34in I was perfectly unprepared-
-11ItlIrt: - of it to any of my friends, and it wasNneo:eenn.ntigl
Iz.rfafter five o'clock on that day, that? on m
lobby,l4 ea 'lend the member for Roscommon in . the
.s.
'll4l4:l!‘rititt I°,3' name had been introduced into a T .
trib on I, to 1 riouse of Lords ; but as I perceive that dis
l'Y 111141 I lee renewed in a formal manner befrea proper
s
ke. shall not follow the example of other
tvlikliaj*lgin that
461 ill
i`
z.k 0 e
otivtiit all etfrale e
h inquiry,ara
eatne(rl. shallehm confine
eufluiiisses,
ated by itne t myselfwep hwe htmei c hla
a noble
entirely passing over
sbie (A im:1,11.) forthe purp9
11 sleved in that discussion b
i'trto 4 tehl Y
til'ltile4rllatel at t.helieadfoofeher Mesty's Government,
I a e earl in the course of his speech thought pro-
a‘,. a hold
~...
ns.considered
kW
Y4' he m appointment to the office
atce
tai,, '3' ta:`,.7, t unfortunatec.irmcuamystance. Now,
'eN'tec. nowerer painful it. have bep t? my
1104 aro heard that observation from so. dista.ngui shed
,Lttis '3'4 that I d tpe •ve anything in it which would
~,Na, litlie to challeenage 't raesell am' about to challen the
oh% •tts of aliotheeri noble personage.
~ follow lbas SIi r,
have th eaglenoble
s
"471'4 very _t. y another, a nobleanwda,spleased to say,
taV'e e,,,3Vnivalrous earl ; and h
V 414(1e 113"r°,1 my appointment he was
be thelelasstearreepeilly-
to the Y the present Government.
.._ Now,
__
_h._
ttakeewlpre. salon I have quoted is justibeq.eyeauy.eura.
~, °f use eich the noble earl can mention in danteyn
you4thtior eharacter—l scarcely think there is raannky
inilpirohowever exalted, which would justify
terTi,eabererincing, such an opinion—onmade
kN ,me trap got at second hand,bytwelve statements,months
Ititillicit 41esTaction, and conveyed persons whose names
14, .4114 the,',•.!oned— (hear, hear) cm made, likewise,
a ost interested in
tajlralit,. 4naerledge of the person
kt 4, 14 41, Sir, I do not think such language is justa-
ta,Vaeiii
~,,la.her any other house—(hear, hear)—without
n accused of ex-
N -.) it, 'einta given for, the
ekhee s_ touduct. But it so pPlefaseed the noble earl to
`Jttl't6l.. 0ft.:71 lilY appointment. I was
dat tpierabmaredoifattehlye
des:Rthic;nla and heard the words use . .
kat,tte3 ~71( with a noble duke, who in a kind and
c I thought the
r, Ilia OF4,llner undertook my c,11: tit,3,
r,,stue noble lord ought not teo. have proceeded
ilitrv4tio',"`e ; but I confess I was surprisedre to hear the
in Ireland,
Dr :II k,": °f one who had been Vice
k 4 % that--14---When many others knew, anydlt smhaell
,I.letli.,lPlio he;ati,e noble lord who now sits opposite o ,
gle Ftsat, 1L the office of chief secreetassryimtmo
etdhiaattelLyoernd
ttilk't)ritati u4d sought me with eagern ,
4'4 to 4°ll of his Government—had pursuheacvlinrege
hfirroemd
1, ple :4,'eet, and from house to house—.
+j,,,,a hi two but friend after friend in his eager haste
le'ttlttlaii-,4ei teli in communication with me, in order .
taNkle eLtioa, which I shall phreeugsehntlittYhmeweesansrtlif
t,,Y the gat uoble lord. I t miht
li It," lay of TBe circumstances had reached etlhye thatiate
liitittliill ii,l.°l4lld--I thought some of theml
lcaotueldthneotFtust
eta. "'`e knowledge of the noble earl
f
nii)te%_the e , and I asked the nobletadtuekmen(nNt eown"
4;4 the so threowfanetto the house—he
i that when
a"4 1," tiolole lord has joined issue— a_
the
possible y
clOtt 41t,e'i.1, as Chief Secretary for. Ihrntelhmaend,
someon
"t •*taa," 'imaelf stated, there might It,,bi"itlAt (ter he Would accept the office
ikall ‘cZlt interview with me, an
Government of Lord Derby..
ilia,tri,r" ?face under the a sokfed Chief
me Secretary,
whether I
k 44'hthitt 1 qlerk) The staGtacnntsalmemaadsewtahsemnaidsettye
dtll4ti,lb clt,:lian. make now—is the
behalf—namely,
,:11,i 2? in another place on my
11—°nAt an interview the noble leordunopposite
'''vkae'tlllll,,k: whether I would
,Nl-1.4, the-' q Lord Derby. (Hear, her)t take with an-
11se,,;_,Ltit,Porilous issue for any
accept
e c I admit it
N.ii,'l la eenfided in the noblemloarnd se hsaountousri,r,
,aawdhalt
tio, e() •ei, ',Jae accurac of his memory.
4' l'ef,:etiresta ce which it will be necessar'y to men-
115b.th fir I ros;lthe d cximent to which I desire
tie brat
it wille be in the recollection.th orfetethre?
i)0',41 t'i;ce or ten days after all the app
for Ireland.
IN'f.t4 )4. "etbY'R Government were made theleantmobeluetlsoordf
"ttaT'a tja%llained for the Chief Secretary
Ni.4t,o4idat, not at the time having hreynreeemrnoetdesitnidtheae
11th:‘15e e'f.''c Lola any way interested
the to atibi' ird Derby's Governmente,rlctoooekhineolienrtdereepst.
!iteb` a14",,e• (A. laugh.) However, the noble
urable friend
t4l,Ne'll communication with my
i, Cat,ties LI,. Tipperary,
'''4 l'c411111"lat 1401- He askedn ethweams evinehrYb°enr:afoxrieTaiappinerahriys
ntrt' tlf7 41_ 143 r 1; • te residence ;he could nhiotefihn
Id
wasi,
C4411e4 b'lert went to the Reform Club, of we
I do not
I.;„l'll44eiber. He inquired there for 111
411'111.A. 'et this has escaped the noble lord's.memory—
ts4fth' ktoa—No.
Zt :11o1)1,71.---At all events, I will rlefrheashvethsetamd,emweornyt
‘111" 4tefo- t°td• The noble lord, as
he inquired .
bat,,Mcha,4lll..,_Club, and not finding me there, laiiitrie'3-• tie waited in that great hall,•vhbieche,alNivehde when
tit!Nl „ ttte Changing, may not improperly
h n members w e
I°4 ttl,N 41:04)P merit. -C.A. laugh.) Ido not supposheelsaumr.
tttsktc,lue ~,4 „..4%rave charge against 0 •
.i.`, eire„...4.lunrl,, say that
thattfie
were seized
titara,teatiaablt•nre.e, and
of his
noblehen .
reloermd'hseprrsesence tlier
In
y t{ ascertain the
was
11411.41tf (Al ' laligl7l.lll°lni fact, the noble lordesevtlyssetkhneeowbn-
kka„ 1.,,,1(ti a ,a!i observers, and it became en-
,:at fagiu 11,reati In having recourse. to
,Pth t club was to
1404iae °re could be found, in o.dearietaoleeelmhemovne
tta
klaciu.4t With which I shall presently. ( •
Ith",e7;klaltred,,,; 58 tO What I knew at the tame,.andl this
to
'' k Tveti by the hon. member for Midd esex, Dpheil en the subject :

last sentence I have read in the presence of the hon. mom-
now read to him this letter, and he perfectly concurs with
me as to the accuracy of my recollection.
" I remain, dear Lord Naas, yours faithfully,
" WILLIAM Kzoon."
Whatever else this letter proves, sir, I think at least the
ber for Galway disposes of the issue put forward by a noble
earl in another place, that this rumour first transpired
after my appointment. I sent that letter to the noble
lord on the Friday evening, and I had no reason to think
the noble lord was not in own. I saw him myself very
near town on the previous day. I waited for an answer
until the Saturday, and towards evening I asked whether
he had arrived at his club. I was told that he was ex-
pected. I inquired on the Sunday, but could receive no
answer. On the Monday, being very anxious that this
matter should be decided here-

Lord NAAS—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. KEOGH—The noble lord cheers, but has he been
anxious throughout that it should he decided here ? Has
he been desirous from the commencement that the whole
matter should come before this house as the proper tribu-
nal. Was he anxious yesterday—to-day—or even half an
hour ago ? But, sir, on Monday I wrote another letter to
the noble lord in these words !

" Reform Club, Monday.
" Dear Lord Naas,—l addressed a letter to you on Friday
evening to the Carlton, and on inquiry on Saturday and yes-
terday was informed that you had not been in town. I called
this day at your house, and was told that you are still absent.
May I beg the favour of a reply as soon as possible after
your arrival.

" Dear Lord Naas, truly yours,
" WILLIAM ICzooli."
Now, I am quite sure the noble lord was out of town on
the Saturday and Sunday, but he arrived in town on the
Monday, and he had my letter before he came to this
house. Of this the house may be sure, as he significantly
enough asked a friend of mine whether this question was
likely to be brought before the House of• Commons. He
was in the divisions which took place in this house on
that day, and he received my two letters. About two
o'clock on the second day, before the noble lord and a
gallant friend of his entered the house, they left for me at
the Reform Club the letter I shall now read to the house.
I do not wish to deprive the noble lord of any advantage
he may derive from this letter. I will give his letter
word for word, and will read it with all the emphasis I
can command. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) That part of
the letter which appears to give the most direct negative
to what I have asserted is the part on which I most rely—
(hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches)—because some-
thing tells me that, although the noble lord was of this
mind at two o'clock on Tuesday last, he has seen reason to
think very differently, and that he will speak very differ-
ently when he now rises to address the house. Here is
his letter :

of the Crown ; he is consulted on various subjects of public
interest ; ho is absolutely assisting my noble friend ; and
my noble friend is endeavouring to ascertain what may
ho the future conduct of the honourable and learned gen-
tleman and his friends, speaking to him in this wise -
" Now, what would you have done if office had been
offered you by Lord Derby ?" I say it is not at all re-
markable that the hon. and learned gentleman should have
put an interpretation on that conversation which it was
not intended to bear by my noble friend. I really think
that my noble friend and the right honourable gentleman,
from the same state of facts, have arrived at opposite in-
ferences. As far as I can collect, I think that is a true
and sound view of the case. I wish now for one moment
to refer to an appeal made to the honourable and learned
gentleman which seems to have created some misapprehen-
sion in the mind of my right honourable friend the mem-
ber for North Essex (Mr. Beresford). It seems the hon.
and learned gentleman had indulged in a vein of great in-
vective against myself on one occasion. (A laugh.) I
appreciate and admire the talents of the honourable and
learned gentleman ; but so much has happened since that
time that I do not exactly recollect the particular invec-
tive to which reference has been made. lam convinced,
however, that the invective even of the hon. and learned
gentleman, however continuous and sustained, would never
have influenced me, directly or indirectly, not to send him
a message of the kind which seems to have been forwarded
to him. I always think that invective is a great ornament
of debate—(laughter and cheer)—and I really hardly know
how we could endure attendance iu this house, if our dis-
cussions were not sometimes varied, and rendered more
buoyant, by that arm of eloquence. (Hear, hear.) I
can assure the house that, although I had innocently for-
gotten the invectives of the honourable and learned gen-
tleman, which seems so much to have alarmed my right hon.
friend (Mr. Beresford) at that time, and which have been of
great service in leading to these misapprehensions, I am
confident I always listen to them with approbation, and, on
the whole, with pleasure. (Laughter.) I trust the house
will take the right view of this case. There is nothing in
this case which at all affects political principles of any
kind ; we are not to find fault with au individual because
he has accepted office uuder a party whom he had pre-
vious opposed. Every oue will admit that the Earl of
Derby was perfectly entitled to offer office to the hon. and
learned gentleman, and that it was equally competent to
the hon. and learned gentleman to accept it. This is a dis-
cussion limited—and limited only and strictly—to the
opinion which the House of Commons may have as to the
veracity of two of its most distinguished and respected
members. I confes that, having listened with the greatest
attention to the statements both of the hon. and learned
gentleman and the noble lord, I do find them reconcilable
with the different conclusions to which they have arrived—
(hear)—and I warn the house, under the circumstances,
not to visit every expression on either side with that keen
scrutiny which we only apply to official documents and
public conduct, and that we shall render the intercourse
between man and man and between gentleman and gentle-
man more difficult every day if we take always the most
uncharitable construction, and avail ourselves with so
much eagerness of every word and circumstance in the in-
tercourse of daily life. (Hear, hear.) I think that both
the noble lord and the hon. and learned gentleman were
influenced by kind and gentlemanlike feelings ; and with
respect to the conduct of the hon. and learned gentleman
since that time. I must decline to pronounce any opinion
until the facts are fairly before us ; and shall consider that
so far as the present discussion is concerned, he has done
nothing but what has become him as a gentleman and an
officer of the Crown. (Cheers.) lam of opinion that, so
far as the question before us this evening is concerned, the
honour of both the noble lord and of the hon. and learned
gentleman is clear and unimpeachable, and I shall be
glad to find that that is the general opinion of the house.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, I trust the house will not
lose sight of what I think are the material results of this
, discussion. The right hon. gentleman and the noble lord
opposite have complained that private communications
i have been disclosed, and private letters read ; but be it re-

membered that the whole of this discussion has arisen from
a personal attack made upon an hon. and learned gentleman
holding the high office of Solicitor-General for Ireland—
an office than which there is hardly one which requires
more the confidence of the public at large in order to carry
on its functions with advantage—by a person of no less
station and dignity than one who was lately the Lord-
Lieutenant of Ireland under the Government of the Earl
of Derby. (Ministerial cheers.) That nobleman stated
that the appointment of the hon. and learned gentleman
was the least reputable of any made by the present Govern-
ment. With respect to this point, let the house observe
what has been the result of the present discussion. The
noble lord opposite says that when the late Government
was formed he was in friendly communication with the
hon. and learned member, for the purpose of ascertaining
what were his feelings with respect to the Government
then about to be formed. A right hon. gentleman holding
the office of Secretary at War, and who was in immediate
communication with the members of the Cabinet, au-
thorised the noble lord to state that the feelings of the
then Government towards the hon. and learned gentleman
and his friends would be of a friendly description. The
right honourable member for Bucks has said that the
talents and abilities of the present Solicitor-General for
Ireland, and the course which he had pursued in political
life, would have led him to think it quite natural that an
offer of office should be made to him, and that he, at least,
would not have been surprised, nor would he have disap-
proved of such an offer had it been made. (Cheers.) This,
then, is the result of the discussion ; and it is one which
the honourable and learned gentleman may, in .the first
instance, be proud of obtaining from the discussion of a
question involving imputations made upon his character by
one who had held so high an office as that of the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland. That accusation is now swept
away. It is gone, and gone for ever. (Cheers.) With
respect to the point under discussion, I can hardly say
that there is a doubt as to the veracity of two members
of this house. Recollections, no doubt, may be imper-
fect; but the statement which the noble lord
has made confirms that of the honourable and
learned member for Athlone. There are state-
ments of different words and of different expressions, and
the noble lord, understanding, perhaps, more fully does
not attach the same sense to the words as has been done by
the hon. and learned gentleman. But even supposing
the noble lord's own account to be precisely accurate, and
his memory unfailing, I would defy any man, with a Go-
vernment in the act of formation, to have such a commu-
nication made to him and not have believed that the ques
tion was whether, if he was willing to accept office, some
office was not likely to be offered to him. What are the
circumstances under which the communication was made ?
The Earl of Derby received a commission from her Ma-
jesty on a Saturday evening to form a Government, and
we aro told that upon a Thursday evening following all
the appointments were made. I very much doubt if that
is the fact, but even if it were so, still the public and
honourable members of this house would not have been
fully aware of it ; and it constantly occurred in such cases
that some of the arrangements proposed did not take
place, and some persons who would have proposed to
accept certain offices had declined, thereby creating vacan-
cies of which the public cannot be immediately aware.
The impression which the honourable and learned gentle-
man might fairly have obtained from 'the communication
made under these circumstances may have been confirmed
when, as the noble lord himself says, he was asked if be
had any authority for making that statement, and replied,
" Yes ;" and that the honourable and gallant member for
Essex, known to be intimate with all the concerns of the
party, was his authority for the question he had put. If
that is the case I do not think there is any difference,
which can be said to be a difference, affecting the vera-
city of the parties, particularly as regarding a conversation
which it appears was of some 20 minutes' duration, and
which occurred some months since. But there is another
circumstance which, in the words of the noble earl the late
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, are, I think, " not respect-
able" to the noble lord opposite. I think when the case
being such as he himself admits, when the noble lord re-
ceived from the Solicitor-General of Ireland a letter asking
if he had not one day been asked if an offer of office were
made to him he would be disposed to accept it, or any
similar proposal, I think the noble lord should. have said,
that " when so and so occurred, the question I asked
you was of this nature, it might have given you the im-
pression—l cannot think it could have done so—but, it
may have produced the impression that I meant to offer
you some office. That was not my meaning, but you were
fully justified in supposing that was the case." I think in
fairness the noble lord should have acted in this manner.
(Cheers.) I cannot conceive any man receiving such a let-
ter, having had such a communication, and answering it
by saying, "I have to declare that neither directly nor in-
directly, was any offer of office made to you." Yet that
statement was conveyed by a message to a noble lord in the
other house, and brought forward there in the most direct
and positive manner. Such a want of fairness, candour,
and of honourable oonsideration for the feelings and cha-
racter of a person with who'si the noble lord had been upon
terms of friendship, it has seldom been my lot to witness.
(Loud cheers.) All this, be it observed, too, from a noble
lord who, though he has said he was not much used to
making speeches in that house, yet is one who is particu-
larly nice with respect to public conduct, and who, not
very long since, constituted himself a public accuser, and
should therefore be remarkably careful in the conduct
which he pursues towards those to whom he happens to be
particularly opposed. (Loud cheers.) Ido not think that
as the result of this discussion, there is any reason to doubt
the veracity of either the hon. and learned gentleman the
Solicitor-General, or of the noble lord opposite, but I
think, by his own showing and that of the right hon.
gentleman opposite, that there was every reason for the hon.
and learned gentleman to suppose that the Government of
the Earl of Derby would have been willing to offer office
to him ; but whether it wore so or not, there is no reason
to doubt the veracity of either of the honourable members
of this house. (Cheers.) But there is no reason to regret
that it should be necessary to state private communi-
cation and read private letters in order to meet
the rash and reckless accusations which have been brought
against the hon. and learned gentleman, and that the late
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland should have taken the oppor-
tunity, in the absence of the hon. and learned gentleman,
to make an unfounded attack upon his character. (Cheers.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON said the noble lord in his address
had assumed a tone of triumph which the circumstances by
no means justified. (Hear.) And the speech of the noble
lord was more open to remark and comment from the
marked difference in tone between his speech and that of
his right hon. friend (Mr. Disraeli.) (Hear.) Any speech
more judicious, more conciliatory, or more consistent with
the fact than that of his right hon. friend he had never
heard, nor did he ever hear a tone of triumph which was
less justifiable, or a tone of sarcasm which was less called
for, than that contained in the speech of the noble lord.
(Hear.) The speech of his noble friend contained nothing
to justify the terms of harshness and censure in which the
noble lord spoke of him. His noble friend told a plain
tale, and his tone and manner were so consistent with the
facts of the case that they must have carried conviction to
the mind of every member in the house. (Hear.) He ad-
mitted that there was nothing irreconciliablo in the state-
ments of the noble lord and the hon. and learned gentle-
man. His noble friend admitted that he asked the hon. and
learned gentleman whether if such an office had been
offered to the hon. and learned gentleman he would accept
of it—that office being at the time tilled up. (Hear, hear.)
That was an important fact to remember. Ho spoke from
memory, but his impression was that all the offices of the
Government were filled at the time, and he believed that
the Irish law offices were actually filled. There were two
issues contained in the discussion which was raised that
night, one referring to the conversation which had taken
place, and the other relative to the appointment of the
hon. and learned gentleman which had been described in
another place as the least reputable appointment made by
the present Government. The immediate answer to that was
that the same offer had been made. by the late Government.:
His reply to this was that the circumstances were different,
even supposing that an offer had been made to the han.
and learned gentleman by the late Government. The hon.

and learned gentleman said ho stood face to face with his
noble friend. Ho (Sir J. Pakiugton) stood face to face
with the hon and learned gentleman. He did not come
down prepared to speak, and therefore he had not the
documents with him, but if the language attributed to the
hon. and learned gentleman dmine the last election was
correctly reported—if it was true that he had spoken as he
did of the Ecclesiastical Titles Act, and that he had.
physically trampled it under foot—if it was true that the
hon. and learned gentleman made one of the most solemn
appeals to the Deity, in words the most solemn that could
be used, that he never would take office under any Govern-
ment which did not make Mr. Sharman Crawford's Tenant
Right Bill a Cabinet question—if it were true that he
made the speeches attributed to him at Carlow and West-
meath. then he (Sir J. Pakington) would say that the
noble lord (Eglintou) was justified in characterising the
appointment of the hon. and learned gentleman as he had
done. (He.er.) His noble friend (Lord Nees) had made a
clear, manly, honourable, and straightforward statement,
which left nothing to be desired. The other issue iu the
cpleetion reinnined to be cleared up. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. KEOGH hoped the house would indulge him for
a.
few minutes after the speech of the right hon. baronet,
which opened up new ground. But before doing so he
begged to express his acknowledgments to the right hon.
gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) for the kind, generous, and, he
feared, undeserved expressions he tined towards him on the
jeihilapagtol: inotbnheeninmi hon.ul
engaged
esgoen:nwtglpheeldieenr
elsewhere.
present occasion. (Hear, hear.) As far as the attack on
d
his personal character was concerned, the language of the
compensationds.::
cusses,ijugvas tofo
for the mho anim
palllutillteioNninedasit:
(Hear, hear.) But after the house
gentleman,
to
alt:
rhi
gmee aanercl
o,aftertafhr oe:f
ie
ihege eh\t‘to, completeahhi
insignificant a question as (h.
thef
uy tiI:;
fuer, justification
hestn
e)sornown.)
With regard 'Co the physical performance attributed 9'
to.
him in respect to the Ecclesiastical Titles Act, he • • l
disavowed it. (Hear, hear.) And so far from makeinntglrei
0:2n1 ai,one n
falt'e;.hciointefunitoyferilt3c.uta,nl
unsafe.
teatsiaato;onfil
ef-
preferreda a4' ed Personally
speeches on that subject, no meetings were held to any
knowledge with respect to it since the late Government
came into office. (" No, no—that is not the question.")
That was the whole gist of the accusation. (Hear, hear.)
ar .)
He had stated at the commencement of his speech that he
would not be dragged into any other matter but the one
before the house as long as an investigation with regard to
it was pending in the other house. Let any new charges
be brought forward against him, and he would be prepared
at the proper time and place to meet them, and to dispose
of them as satisfactorily and effectually as he (lid the pre-
sent. (Hear, hear.) If there was a difference between the
noble lord and him, he asked the house and the public to
contrast the statement of the noble lord with all the ad-
missions made. Let them consider and weigh the statement
in leis letter, in which he gave nothing but a dry denial,
and in comparing the admissions and denials let them take
up the letter of amen whom the noble lord did not venture
to impeach, whose veracity he did not even suggest that he
could call in question, and let them reconcile that document
with the declaration that the noble lord never mentioned
the conversation to any human being till within the last
week. •
Mr. WHITESIDE said, that the noble lord having re-
ferred to the motion made against Lord Clarendon, in
which he took no part, considering it would be contrary to
etiquette, as he had been one of the counsel in the case,
could never listen to a minister of the Crown in a country
where public morality and public principles were professed
to be respected, eulogizing and justifying that transaction,
without giving to that justification an indignant denial—a
denial of its propriety and justice. (Hear, hear.) He could
not forget that it had been proved that gold had been rolled
out by the Lord-Lieutenant to obtain the panegyrics of a
newspaper for the Government. (Hear, hear.) But he
would not speak on that subject, as the hon. and learned
gentleman had abstained from doing so.
Mr. KEOGH was understood to say that the hon. and
learned gentleman had offered him his notes of the case in
the lobby. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WHITESIDE said, when he next spoke to thehon.
and learned gentleman, he thought it. would be desirable
to have 300 persons present. (Loud laughter.) If the
speeches and conduct attributed to the hon. and learned
gentleman by the newspapers were correct, then he would
say that the noble lord (Eglinton) was justified in the use
of the language he applied to the hon. and learned gen-
tlemen in another place. When a Minister of tho Crown
should be found who laid it down as his rule that those
should be elevated to the offices of State who were the most
distinguished in the walks of agitation, the effect of that
principle in reference to Ireland would be, that learning,
industry, and the quiet pursuit of any profession would he
regarded ratheras impediments to promotion, and it would
be understood that the true mode of obtaining the favour
of the Minister was to open a school of agitation, or a nur-
sery of sedition. (Hear, hear.)
Lord H. BENTINCK fully agreed with the hon. and
learned gentleman, the Solicitor-General for Ireland, that
nothing could be more painful than these personal discus-
sions. Much time had been wasted that evening on matters
of comparatively minor importance. Out of that house, if
not in it, the lion. and learned gentleman had been charged
with having pledged himself in the most distinct and so-
lemn manner, not only never to hold office in, but never to
tolerate the existence of, any Government which was nut
prepared to carry out certain conditions. The conditions had
not been fulfilled, and yet the hon. and learned gentleman
held office at that moment. (Hear, from the Opposition.)
A more serious charge than any preferred that evening was
made against the Government a short time ago by the
hon. member for New Ross (Mr. G. Duffy)—a charge of
profligacy of the grossest description—(oh, oh)—and no
explanation had been vouchsafed.
Mr. VANCE said it was very seldom that he differed in
opinion from the right hon. gentleman for Buckingham-
shire, whose Administration he came to that house to sal .
port ; but he was compelled to differ from him in reference
to one observation which he had made that evening. The
right hon. gentleman saidehe should not have been sur-
prised or displeased had office been conferred on the hon.
and learned member for Athlone (Mr. Keogh) by the Ad-
ministration with which he was connected. He (Mr.
Vance) could only say that the constituency whom he re-
presented would have been both surprised and displeased
at such an event—(hear)—and one of their gravest grounds
of objection was the fact of his having always avowed and
supported ultra-niontane principles. (Hear.) He felt
bound to give this honest expression of his opinion.
SUCCESSION DUTY BILL.
On the order of the day for going into committee on ths

Mil
Sir W. JOLLIFFE said he was sorry to interpose any
delay to the Speaker's leaving the chair; but he must take
that opportunity of making an appeal to the right hon.
gentleman with regard to the mode in which the object of
this measure was to be carried out. He wished to give the
Government full credit for believing that the burdens of
taxation were at present unequal, and that the landed in-
terest was not sufficiently taxed. While doing this, how-
ever. he must observe that the infliction of the tax itself
would be far less disastrous than the mode in which it
was to be levied. (Hear.) For many years it had been
part of his almost daily occupation to have a good deal to
do with rateable property, either as trustee, guardian, or
as executor. If he were informed on any subject what-
ever, he was on that ; and the result of his experience
generally was, that whereas the legacy duty generally
pressed very severely, and was a cruel and most ungracious
mode of taxation, the pressure of the evil was immensely
exaggerated when the tax could not be levied without
calling in legal aid. (Hear, hear.) He wished to impress
on the ric,elinion. gentleman and the Government that, by
passing the bill with its present extraordinary provisions,
they would inflict upon rateable property a degree of ex-
pense and of inconvenience, and would insure the exercise
of a degree of tyranny which had never been caused by the
institution of any previous tax. (Hear.) If it was neces-
sary that rateable property should bear the proposed
burden, he for one was ready to bow down his back to the
yoke ; but he entreated the Government and the house not
to inflict the tax upon land in the manner proposed. The
proposition which he wished to make was not at all origi-
nal, nor was it in fact inimical to the spirit of the measure.
The more he looked at the measure, the more it seemed to
him to have the joint operation of a postponed laud tax and
a postponed property tax. The proposition of the right
hon. gentleman with regard to corporations aggregate was,
he understood, that they should be subjected to a perma-
nent property tax, that that tax should, during the conti-
nuance of the property tax, be 3d. in the pound, and that
after its cessation it should be raised to 6d. He entreated
the right hon. gentleman and the Government to concede
to him that arrangement. He entreated this for the sake
of themselves—he entreated it for the sake of that house,
which must be detained for an extraordinary length of
time by the consideration of these complications ; he en-
treated it in order that the Legislature might be saved
from the discredit of inflicting a tax which they had never
borne, and which in all probability, indeed certainly, the
great majority of them could never bear. His appeal to
the Government was, that they shoulthat d postpone
uld for
take
one
night the committee on the bill ; they sho
twenty-four hours to reconsider the matter, and then tell
the house whether it was not possible to extend a proposi-
tibn which had been considered just, as regarded ono par-
ticular class of owners of property, to all who might be in-
terested in the measure. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said ho was
very sorry that, in accordance with what he considered his
absolute d.uty, he must decline to discuss the general bear-
ing and operation of the bill on that occasion and that on
grounds of a very simple character. He must remind the
hon. baronet that, on Monday night, the motion for going
into committee having been debated at considerable length,
the debate having come to a natural conclusion, no hon.
gentleman having proposed an adjournment, and the house
having determined to go into committee, the Speaker left
the chair, which was taken by the chairman of committees.
Upon that, the natural course for him (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) to have taken would have been to move
that the chairman should report progress, and then the
Speaker would at once have left the chair. But there
beinc, certain amendments—very slight ones, in comparison
with the importance of the bill—which the Government in-
tended to introduce, it appeared to him that it would be
for the convenience of members to have the bill in their
hands when it went into committee as nearly as possible
in the exact state in which it would be finally proposed.
He therefore rose in his place and said that, if it was the
understanding on the part of the house that the bill
should go into committee on Thursday, he would on that
(Monday) evening move that it should be committed pro
handsin_st instance
c e thein
forma, and put the amendments in the hands of the
chairman, in order that the bill might be reprinted with
them. After he had spoken there was that silence which
ethhaedanmoveenrdmbeefnotres
kinntoowtnhean
implied consent. Accordingly the bill went into commit-
which, after such an understanding bad •
prevafled, there
had appeared the slightest inclination to take ad
techeairhn:and;idanpduht
vantage of
the formal right which every member undoubtedly
raise subsequently a general debate, had to
Speaker from leaving the chair. He did and prevent -the
not know whether
or not the hon. baronet heard what took
night ;he had certainly remained place on Monday
silent ; and he (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) could
breach of the general understanding not be a party to a
which was come to on
Monday.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE w
had been ignorantwhat was understood to declare that he
course the Government meant to
pursue, and that on
postponed, he
should the question that the preamble be
have made the same appeal that he
-lad done that e • ng.
The evening.
house then went into committee.
On clause 1,
Mr. HENLEY wished to
know whether, where a
father domiciled in America, left property to an English
son settled here, that the son ought to pay succession duty
upon property in America ?
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that the universal
law was that a man dying abroad had his estate adminis-
tered according to the law of the country where ho died.
But if a man died abroad, and made a will, leaving a
variety of successive interests, and the property subjected
thereto were brought to this country and invested in the
English funds, then every interest arising after the removal
of the property to England would be taxed.
Mr. HENLEY said that he did not ask about property
in England, but about property in America.
Who SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that lie had already