The Sun.
London, England, 1853-08-10 00:00:00

the commissioners to raise money by annuities, which
would meet the case.
The rest of the clauses were agreed to, and the bill
passed through committee. '

had proved as great a nuisance as the Board of Health had
been to the metropolis. (A laugh.) The estimate of the
expense was originally 13,8441., and the contract price
12,300/. Well, the actual cost had been upwards ofhey
28,0001., and the compensation for damages, of which
besides
had been warned over and over again, was 5,0001.,
11,000.1 ,
claims sent in by the Duke of Northumberlandfor
and others sent in, and now lying on the table, to the
of
amount of 15,0001. So that the orig
13,0001. had been swelled to 49,000 i. i iannad it app estimate
eared
from further inquiry that the work had been most imper-
fectly executed. A surveyor who had been called in to
measure it had divided the whole course of the sewer into
thirty-eight lengths, and of those no less than thirty-seven
lengths had not been carried out according to the plans
and levels originally laid down. It appeared from further
surveys that the whole of the work was in so imperfect a
state -that it would be almost impossible to renal* it
efficient or available. He found that in the four metro-
politan boroughs of Marylebone, Finsbury, Tower Ham-
lets, s, and Westminster, there were no less than 106,294
houses paying a duty of 212,2811., and containing a popu-
lation of 1,47&,451 '•• and he thought it extremely hard
these immense districts should not have the power of
managing their own affairs. If no new works wore under-
taken beyond those that were absolutely necessary, and if
none of any magnitude were undertaken without the con-
sent of the inhabitant householders, the objections which
existed to the continuance of the commission would be
materially modified.
Mr. PETO having been appointed one of th 7 commis-
sion of engineers and scientific men to inquire into the
various plains proposed for the drainage of the metropolis,
wished to make a few observations. The two principles
which they had laid down were, first, that the sewerage
should be carried down to such a distance below London as
would prevent its being carried back by the tide ; the
second was, there should be a system of deep sewerage
into which the metropolis should be drained by the force of
gravitation, and that pumping should only be resorted to
where it was absolutely necessary. They found, however,
that they could not carry out these plans under the exist-
ing commission, and had resigned their offices, it being im-
possible to act satisfactorily with the existing body. They
had certainly done their best to place a practical plan be-
fore the metropolis, and they were ready still to give their
time and best advice-to the Government. He felt that the
metropolitan members had some right to complain, and
unless the commission had the entire confidence of the pub-
lic,
he believed it would be impossible for them to acquit
themselves satisfactorily. The hon. baronet had referred
to the large expenses incurred by the commissioners of
sewers, and the cost of management ; but taking the whole
amount expended -in the previous year, he found the ex-
, penes of management did not exceed 174 per cent. With
reference to the existing state of the metropolis as regarded
its drainage, nothing could be more painful, and nothing
more calculated to affect most seriously the health of
.the
population. It must be a subject of the deepeet_txroy
to all to learn, that as regarded the south side of London,
for 16 hours out of the 24 the whole of that areaal fwua s little
l to him
better than a huge cesspool. ,It had been P T?
(Mr. Pete) to receive reports from the medicai_ officersof
the effects of bad sewerage upon the health of the
inhabi-
tants of the Metropolis, and to be unable to apply a re-
medy. He, recommended the noble lord (Palmerston) to
consider and consult during the recess as to the adoption
of comprehensive and efficient measures for the redress of
this great evil. (Hear.) It was a disgrace to the country
that London should be, in this respect, behind ancient
cities such as Rome—the sewerage of which had been sin-
gularly effective and complete. If the noble lord would
consult with practical men, and constitute an efficient
commission, he would find no difficulty in devising means
Vsupply the metropolis with a good system of sewerage.
eggested especially, that no work be undertaken with-'
out the opinion and approbation of the first-rate engineers, HACKNEY CARRIAGES.
like Mr. Culeitt—(hear)—let there be no partial plans, but On the motion that the Hackney Carriages Bill be read
a well-considered and complete system of drainage for the a third time,
metropolis. (Hear.) Colonel SIBTHORP said he felt great interest in the
Sir J. SHELLEY did not consider that the present bill for u
one motive alone—namely, his desire to seepaurp
or o 0
Board -
of Sewers deserved the confidence of the metropolis. perof
eauTt rniguegmtebneti
lo vf
eteh
se
nhda ctkbnee ye a
fceatryr i
They might comprise individuals of eminence, but these oa gf
e at
he forthe
Onlype
public.
a few days ago he saw no less than four omnibuses abreast
were not the persons who really did the business. This was in Regent-street, leaving no possible room for even a
done by very different parties. It was all very well to female to pass. Loss of life and limb had ensued from the
talk of Sir J. Burgoyne and gentlemen like him, but out misconduct of the set of persons engaged in omnibuses,
of 34 courts in one year, Sir J. Burgoyne had only attended some of whom were among the greatest ruffians on the face
six, and Captain Beche a similar number. (Hear, hear.) of the earth. He had, therefore, framed a set of resolu-
Again, out of 55 committees (in which the real work tions wlaice he believed would meet the case, and which he
was done), Sir J. Burgoyne attended only eleven, and hoped the house'would adopt. If his servant offered an
, Captain Beebe eight. A great deal had been said as to insult to any one, he should feel it his duty to punish him.
the
.plan proposed by, the commissioners—would it be Under these circumstances he moved the resolutions
.:-2-
earned out by the works now proposed ? Why, one part " That no omnibus or public carriage of that description
of it wax this : the drainage of the north of London was to shall be permitted to take up or set down any passenger in
be conducted through Hackney-brook, a stream which for the middle or centre of any public street, road; or tho-
four miles ran through fields, and which was to be covered roughf ere, but on each side of the street, road, or thorough-
over, at an enormous expense, for the sake of carrying off fare adjoining the pavement or causeway when going or
the drainage of the proposed, new city market, to which coming to and fro; penalty for each offence 405., or ina-
expense the city was to contribute only 2,000/. ; and- the prisonment for one month.
sewerage was to be discharged into the river Lea, close to `= That the name and residence of each proprietor, as
the West Letadon Waterworks. No one out of the house well as driver, of each carriage, be printed on each card or
had the, least confidence in the present board of commis- ticket that is to be deliVered by each driver to the person
sioners. Mr. Chadwick had sought to carry out his own or parties requiring such card or ticket at the time of
absurd theogips, for which purpose he had got rid of the hiring; penalty for •omission 405., or one month's impri-
experienced .officers of the old commission. The worst sonment.
drainage was south of the Thames ; yet, in defiance of the " That no driver or other person connected with such
opinion of Sir It. Stephenson, the commissioners did not public carriage shall occupy or sit within side of any such
propose to execute any works for the present in that dis- cab or public carriage during the time such cab or public
trict. The noble lord had promised the introduction of carriage is on the public stand, or during the period that
the representative principle into the board. It was un- any such shall be hired. Penalty each offence 405., or one
reasonable that a lawyer should be appointed to preside month's impiisonment.
over the sewers commission. No man "learned in the " That the police officers on duty in each street or dis-
law" could be learned in drainage. Why, any man who trict be authorised and have full power to take cognisance
had tried to drain for agricultural purposes knew it would of any misconduct on the part of any driver of any public
take twenty years to understand the system. It was better carriage, or other person connected therewith, or for
to have no drainage than bad drainage, for to cure it was neglect or deviation from the enactments of the bill, and
almost impossible. The present commission was devoid of either to rectify' at the time or make special report thereof
all power to remedy the evil. But none of the commis- -in each case, and act as referees as to any complaint by
sioners were so bad as Mr. Chadwick, who was a perfect any person or party concerned."
.pest wherever he went. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) No- Mr. LOWE was sorry he could not consent to the clauses
thing but a great comprehensive scheme of drainage would proposed by the hon. and gallant gentleman. They were
be effective, and it would be better to defer any endeavours
to redress the evil until it could be done well. at variance with the principle of the bill, and as they were
of a penal nature they ought to have gone through the
Mr BUTLER declared that the Tower Hamlets bad no usual ordeal of the bill. The police already had a discre-
confidence. in the commissioners, and complained of their tionary power with regard to omnibuses drawing up in the
conduct. The inhabitants had been paying rates for middle of the street. The printing of the name of the
100 years, and had yet no efficient drainage. (Hear.) driver would be attended with great inconvenience, as in
Indeed, they were worse off than before, since they had the event of the driver being discharged the proprietor
been depaived of the benefit of natural watercourses' and would not have cards printed with the name of the new
there had boon no sewers constructed at all since 1847, driver. He had no great. faith in the wisdom of a police-
when the old commission expired. (Hear, hear.) The officer, and for these reasons he must oppose the clauses.
registrar general of deaths continually appended to his Colonel SIBTHORP would have more confidence in the
returns of mortality statements relative to the condition wisdom of a police-officer than in that of half the members
of the sewerage as the cause of the deaths which occurred. of the Treasury bench. (A laugh.) Whether his clauses
In 1847 the powers of the local commissioners were ab- were rejected or not, he felt that he had done his duty, and
rogated, and their duties were undertaken by others. let hon. gentlernen opposite be responsible.
But what should Sir Edward North Buxton know about The clauses were then put and negatived.
the duties of a sewers commissioner ? The local rector, Sir D. NORREYS then moved the admission of the fol-
again, the Rev. Mr. Stone, was made a commissioner lowing clause :—" That in any case of dispute as to dis-
of sewers. That rev. gentleman might be very eligible tance which cannot be decided by reference to the book of
for a bishopric, but was not peculiarly qualified for the fares, which the commissioners of police are authorised to
lay post to which the Government appointed him. The re- publish, the magistrate presiding may determine the same
medy he (Mr. Butler) would propose would be the appoint- by measurement on some authentic copy of the Ordnance
meat of local boards, composed of men of standing and map of London, or on the reduced copy thereof already
ability, with a supplementary commission called an outlet published under the authority of the Board of Ordnance ;
commission. Let the present commission be continued and in order to determine the points of hiring and setting
for one year, but he hoped that in the recess the down, where the hiring may not be from an authorised
noble lord would tarn his attention to the suggestion he cab stand, the place of hiring shall be taken to be the first
had made. street, or passage, or public building, or any object die-
Mr. WILKINSON expressed his surprise that the great tinctly marked on such map, which shall be passed after
pains confessedly bestowed on this subject had not been hiring, and the place of setting down shall be the last
productive of some permanently beneficial result. street, passage, building, or object which shall be passed
Lord PALMERSTON said that at present his mouth before setting down; and if the place of setting down, or 1
was closed. (A laugh.) If the house would go into com- to which the hackney carriage shall be driven, shall be in a
mittee ho would state his intentions. street which is not intersected by any other street, or
Mr. EVELYN suggested the addition of a clause to the which has in it no building or object so marked on the
effect that some company should undertake the operations map as aforesaid, the magistrate may, at his discretion,
in hand this year, the works to revert to some more corn- according to the evidence, take the end or middle of such
prehensive machinery at a future period. He did not street as the point to which such carriage shall have been
think that the Thames would ever be purified by govern- driven, or at which the hirer thereof shall have been set
went commissions, and looked for that consummation to down."
private competition alone. Mr. LOWE could not agree with the clause. It was
Lord D. STUART objected to the 'instruction to the open to the same objection as the other, beit g a too minute
committee proposed by the noble lord (Palmerston). His legislation. Parties at present could make use of the Ord.
constituents had no objection to make sacrifices in the nance map, but where an objection was raised then there
interest of the public health, but they first wished to have must be an actual admeasurement. He thought the clause
geed measures submitted to them, In the meantime they was somewhat indefinite, and was also on that account
feared they might be put to vast expense without any objectionable.
corresponding object being secured. He did not believe the Mr. F. SCULLY then moved the insertion of the fol-
public had confidence in this sewers commission, and lowing clause :—" That the proprietor of every hackney
thought they would much rather subscribe the money in carriage or metropolitan stage carriage, licensed to ply for
order to put au end to it than continue its power. The hire within the limits of this act, who shall withdraw his
public ho believed would have no confidence in the nresent carriage from hire for two consecutive days, or for any two
_
proposal of the Government. days in one week, without just cause, of-which the magis-
Mr. MALINS thanked the metropolitan members who trate before whom the complaint is heard shall be the
had spoken for the explanations they had volunteered with judge, shall be liable to a penalty of a sum not exceeding
regard to this sewers question. He was not disposed to 20s. in respect for every carriage for each day he shall so
refuse the money asked for provided there was an as-
withdraw the same • and the licence of such proprietor
surance given that the money would be properly applied.
shall be suspended Or recalled, and taken away at the dis-
But at present it was doubtful whether the deep or shal-
cretion of the said commissioners of police : provided
low system of drainage was to be pursued, and this point
always, that it shall be lawful for such proprietor, upon
ought primarily giving 10 days' notice to the commissioners of police, to
to be settled. He wished, therefore, that
withdraw his c rri e from hire." It would prevent the
3
an assurance should be given that the money to be taken aee
from the pockets of the people would be expended for a very great inconvenience to the public that occurred a short
strictly sanitary purpose in the interest of the public. He time since, and would not operate unfairly to the proprie-
hoped, moreover, that the noble lord would refrain from tors or owners of cabs or carriages.
putting merely ornamental names on the commission—
Mr. FREWEN had been informed that the loss mien-
(hear, hear)—and that in its reconstruction he would be listed to have been sustained by the cab proprietors by the
solicitors to obtain a few working men rather than mere olate.lstrike, which lasted three days, was as much as
numbers' who could not devote themselves to the discharge `,'"'-' ' ,
of their duties. Sir J. SHELLEY-2,500/. a-day: •
The house then (livide d Mr. FREWEN—If that were the case, then he thought
For Lord Pahnerston'a motion
71
meat. And, under these circumstances, he doubted if it
Majority would be wise to substitute the proposition of the hon.
—39
The 'h'N'oguaisnes:hietii. \\,.:en..t. * i.n..t.0. ' committee.-.--..-..* ********
. ***
32
member.
On clause I,Lord D. STUART considered the remedy proposed was
Viscount PALMERSTON merely wished to say he was • an objectionable one, and he trusted the house would not
quite willingetoeect on the a agree to it. It would operate most tyranically upon indi-
not be laid, out without the ozgestion that money should .
victuals engaged in the hackney carriage trade ; and he
engineers. He also agreed with those and
approval of the
unless
some
ose who said that nothing should therefore vote against the proposition. •
would be satisfa,ctoie
general system which !
would relieve the Thames from the sewer cab proprietors
J. SHELLEY said that the house had not only the
believed
also mitaltytoelri
would
which was proprietors to protect, but the public out of doors,
now discharged into it. He
ticable to have the emouiths of the sewersa constructed as 1 who had been put to great inconvenience by the late
! strike. The 'proposition of 'the hon. member (Mr. F.
4>hperevent foul
hot-blast furnaces were constructed, soScully) was a reasonable -one, and- he should give it .his
air and smells from diffusing themselves.
astonished that
, cordipport.
had been
.greatly disappointed at what had beenratATers Mr. al
J. FOX said it was within his knowledge that
seeing the utter the commissioners, and he was onlymany of the drivers were much dissatisfied with the late
commissioners did not strike altogether, strike. He should support the clause.
impossibility of carrying out the objects and the plans. • Mr. LOWE said the cab proprietors had had all the con-
they had in view. He again repeated that care should be cessions they required before they struck, and he thought
taken in expending the money usefully. There were about it was only just that the public should be protected from
2,000 miles of streets in the metropolis, and only 900 mile,, such combinations, which had for their object, not so much
were supplied with sewerage, therefore 1,100 miles re- the carrying of any particular point, as the exhibition of
power of the parties engaging in them. He was happy,
soared to be supplied. As Milton described the evils of
. to
msabyetrh(alit
rh. is hon. friend the Under Secretary of State
populous ezties-
4, where houses thick and sewers annoy the air." ; imelle;:tiee;eazDa:3:artment had seen. the clause of the 'hon.
thenide di read,c,
must the air be annoyed where there , instructions tol% Scully), and that he (Mr. Lowe) had his
How touch more mu ag to it.
to houses. (Hear and laughter.)
second time, passed through
were no sewers
thea bill. Sir W. CLAY hoped the noble lord would false care
that no money should
be laid out except on the advice and I Mr. V. sceaty
following
• ."Where hackney carriage shall be
. .
suggeetion of qualified persons.
the anY
be paid, under the Sir II HALL thought it advisable the commissioners 1 discharged beyond
Parliament, t , chapter
circumference of a circle the-radius
0 the metropolis. prepared, which could of which shall be four miles from Temple-bar, it shall be
should have a plats
be obtained by ratepayers and parishes on application, and , lawful for the driver
in• addition to the
of
such
carriage,
the act of the present
this would veryomuch facilitate the determination of the) fsaesrseionnowofdriraerclt
, m'
to charge a sum of 6d.
mile, in respect of the
Sir J. SHELLEY was better satisfied now that the
1 per mile for each mile, or part of a l
Legislature.
commissioners would not
have the sole power of expending distance between the
place where he iscircumference." discharged and
the money, but were to do nothing
_without first consult- the nearest point of such
tug the engineers. He hoped the noble lord would compel Sir W. CLAY seconded the clause, and-suggested that
City fares, should be •
the commissioners to sayinstead of a circular form, the form in an
that the engineers should look at the line to govern the minor, or
of the City
the whole system of drainage and not merely begin upon elliptical,.
some fancy piece of work, snel as the commissioners were
Mr. SPOONER thought it would be advisable to h •
at first anxious to have enclosed, before anything general .
being elliptical and not circular.
have
one for
was attempted to be done. •westward from Charing-cross, the other east-
two points from which to calculate the distances_
Mr. A. PELLATT did not approve of the line of drain- cubs going
t.
Paul's.
age for the aorthere portion of the metropolis, as he con- ward from S
ceived it was too far south. He honed that eminent eng,i-
to be re-considered.
veers would be called upon to • '• • before and said the clause ought .
give their opinionthe difference of opinion
Mr. FREWEN concurred in opinion with Mr. Spooner,
anything was finally determined upon. ' Colonel SIBTHORP, seeing
On clause 5 being proposed,
Mr. PETO suggested that the expense postponed to a future day, and
of forming this be
'system of sewerage that prevailed, moved that the re-consideration of t e bill
be spread overconsiderable adopt the, clause
of time, otherwise the present a spaceto
WE •1 he had no objection to
said) for Cork.
fairly taxed. generation would be un- Mr. LO sa
the sole direction of Lord Palmerston.
Sir DE LACY EVANS wished to know FOX,
noble lord's determinations was with respect to what the After a few words from Mr.
d tand added to the bill.
proposed by the hon. member (Mr. Scully
the burden on penteiity as well a;, the present geraatil,illug9 The clause was ae o, following
moved the addition of the
vi,:couat 1-,41,4413,5102,1 z:..1,1 it was the in' tent. . any hackneY car'
4'''ll of wolda to clause 11 :—" And. ,Rhoueco:
Mr. FREWEN