The Sun.
London, England, 1854-07-04 00:00:00

I 2, line 15, after "shall," to !mitre "but without prej".l
I dice to the vested rights of any present holders of offled4„,,k
under existing acts of Parliament charging their salaries
upon the consolidated fund." Having already explained
his views on this matter, he trusted the Secretary of the
Treasury would adopt them. He suggested that the
present rights of all holders of office should not be inter-
fered, and also that there should be no interference with
the retired holders of office. There were holders of office
who did not hold during life or good behaviour whose
interests would be seriously affected if their salaries were
to come annually under the supervision of the house.
Mr. WILSON said he hoped his hon. and learned
friend would not persist in his amendment, but would
adopt the words which bad been carefully drawn up for
the purpose of accomplishing what he believed to be the
feeling of the house—that the existing holders of office
should not be prejudiced by the act. The only difference
between his clause and the hon. and learned member's
was that the hon, and learned member left out the words
"during life or good behaviour."
Mr. V. SCULLY then withdrew his amendment.
Mr., WILSON then moved the following proviso :
"That where the salary of any office holden for life, or
during good behaviour, is fixed by or under any act of
Parliament, and charged on or payable out of the said
consolidated fund, nothing herein contained shall, so
long as the present holder of such office continues to
hold the same, effect the charge on the said consolidated
fund of the salary which at the time of the passing of
this act is payable in respect of such office ;" which was
agreed to.
Mr. V. SCULLY. then moved to leave out from sche•
dule B all words, figures, and references to acts of Par•
liament relating to the Courts of Chancery in Ireland.
Mr. WILSON said it had been much argued whether
,the masters of these courts were judicial officers or not.
It was the principle of this bill that the salaries of all
judicial officers should be left charged on the consoli•
dated fund. In consequence of the great difference of
opinion whether masters were judicial officers or not,
they had recourse to very high legal authority, and they
were advised that masters of all the courts might be
considered as judicial officers. He, therefore, proposed
to make an exception in favour of the masters of these
courts as well as of the masters in the Court of Chan-
cery. The officers in the Court of Chancery in Ireland
were paid out of the consolidated fund. Those in Eng-
land were paid by fees. It was the intention of Go-
vernment to pay the officers in England from the public
exchequer, but the existing officers, those who were now
living, would of course be protected in the same way
that this bill protected the officers in Ireland. At pre-
sent the officers in England were virtually paid from the
consolidated fund, inasmuch as their salaries were
charged on certain fees, and, if there was a deficiency, it
was to be made up from the consolidated fund. When
they had provided that the existing officers should in no
way be prejudiced by the operation of this bill they had
gone as far as any existing person could have a right to
ask them, for surely it was within the scope of the Trea-
sury and of that house to consider, not only whether an
office that fell vacant should be filled up at all, but, if
filled up, what salary should be attached to it. Govern-
ment thought that the whole of these establishments
should annually be brought under the consideration of
that house, in order that public opinion might from time
to time be brought to harmonise with these establish.
ments, and that the executive government of the day
might, from the discussions which would take place,
know how to deal with these appointments as they arose.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that in England these
officers were paid by fees, but their salaries were fixed.
The English Masters in Chancery received 2,5001.
a-year each, and he asked the Secretary of the Trea-
sury to state what was the salary of those officers in
Ireland.

Mr. I. BUTT said he understood from the Secretary
of the Treasury that the result of the ill treatment of the
Irish officers was that they were going to treat the Eng-
lish officers in the same way. They were now for the
first time sanctioning the principle that the ministerial
portion of the courts of just.ce should be dependent on
an annual vote of that house.
The house then divided--
For the amendment
Against it l3B
Majority
—27
Mr. V. SCULLY said that division related merely to
the Court of Chancery, and he would now move a simi-
lar amendment with regard to the courts of law, in
which there iiight be some difference. As so many had
(fielded in his favour, lie would try his luck again. He
moved a similar omission with regard to the officers of
the Court of Queen's Bench.
Mr. I. BUTT supported the motion on the ground
that if the salaries of the officers of the court were de-
pendent on an annual vote of the house, they might, to
put an extreme case, deprive the court of its officers if
they were dissatisfied with any of its decisions.
Lord J. RUSSELL could not think for a moment
that the house would ever be inclined to deprive these
officials of their salaries.
Mr. MALINS agreed with Mr. Butt, that the
schedule, as it stood, infringed the principle of adminis-
trative justice. The salaries of those engaged in the
administration of justice should not be dependent upon
the caprice of the House of Commons.
Mr. DRUMMOND observed that the consequence
of this bill would be that they would have an annual
debate upon all these salaries, while if there was one
part of the country which ought to have been excluded
from its operation more than another it was Ireland.
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it
Mr. V. SCULLY said there were two or three other
amendments that he had given notice of. The taxing
officers in Ireland were included in the schedule ; those
in England were not.
Mr. WILSON said before the hon. member proceeded,
he had an amendment to move, wbich was, that the
words "excepting the masters" be inserted in the sche-
dule after the words " Courts of Queen's Bench, Com-
mon Pleas, and Exchequer."
The amendment was agreed to.
Mr. V. SCULLY insisted that the following offices
ought to be struck out of the schedule, namely :—lnsol-
vent Debtors' Court, Ireland ; Police Magistrates or
Commissioners of Police, Dublin ; Registrars of Judges,
Ireland ; Expenses or Lodging Money of Judges, Ire.
land ; and Assistant Barristers, Ireland.
Mr. GEORGE argued that the taxing masters were
judicial officers, and ought to be excluded.
Mr. WILSON entertained a different opinion. There
were no judicial functions attached to the office of taxing
master.
Col. DUNNE was at a loss to understand upon what
principle the exclusions had been made.
Some other verbal amendments were then made in the
schedule.
Mr. SPOONER then rose to move the amendment o
which he had given notice with regard to Maynooth. He
said he did not intend to go into the religious part of the
question, but although he abstained from doing so, it
must be distinctly understood that his opinions upon
it remained unchanged. (Hear, hear.) The vote for
Maynooth ought never to have been removed from
the annual estimates ; it was an unconstitutional pro-
ceeding nothing more nor less, indeed, than an
attempt to stifle the public voice, and that was why he
called upon the house to restore the vote to its original
position. (Hear, hear.) There were only two classes
of charges which should be allowed to remain on the
consolidated fund, namely, the charge for diplomatic
agents and the salaries of judicial officers, but it was
argued with reference to this grant, that it was the re-
sult of a compact or a contract made between the minis.
ter who proposed it and the Roman Catholic body. He
found, however, on referring to Sir Robert Peel's speech
w hohim
never in
in 1845, that there was no stipulation or contract
what-
everproposing
easbuol
g about
it
tt
was; thea
real
desireto motiveconciliate which actuated
those
had been and never could be conciliated ; for no honest
Roman Catholics, professing the views which they did
profess, and acting up to their professions, ever could
be
had all along being endeavouring
to get, namely, supremacy for their religion instead of
ob-
tainedt h conciliatedat wh or
c hthey reconciled
in
any
way until they
toleration. (Hear.) Nothing would satisfy them until
they had destroyed the Established Church in Ireland,
whichens ,ands finallyeemedto bsuecetheeedefidrsita ootecrtthroefwtihnegirtihnespeierna.-
tstitution by establishing
the spiritual domination of the
Pope in this country. (Hear, hear.) The house must
resist that daring aggression. Parliament should make
the Roman Catholics to know that they must rest con-
tented with the unlimited privilege accorded to all sects
worshipping their God according to their consciences ;
they should be made to know that they must rest con-
tented with being put on a level with all those who did
not agree with the doctrines of the Church of England,
and unless that principle were maintained, the house
would soon find that the Protestant spirit which had
been aroused throughout the country, and which
was daily and hourly increasing, would be so ex-
asperated that Parliament would be compelled to
do by force what it had now the opportunity of accom•
plishing by quiet and peaceable means. (Hear, hear.)
They could not be continually calling upon a Protestant
nation to contribute towards the support of idolatry.
(" Oh, oh.") Hon. members might cry "oh, oh," but
they might depend upon it that was the light in which
the country viewed the question ; and he called upon
the house, now that they were placing almost every
other charge upon the estimates, to take this opportunity
of regaining a control over the Maynooth grant. (Hear,
hear.) It was one of the especial duties of the house to
look after the expenditure of the country, but that duty
would not be fully and efficiently performed if this grant
should be allowed to remain on the consolidated fund,
and therefore he moved the house to add to schedule B,
"the president, vice-president, and students of Maynooth
College, and the expenses of the establishment, enacted
by 8 and .9 Vic. c. 25."
Col. NORTH seconded the motion.
The question having been put,
Mr. NEWDEGATE asked what special claim May-
nooth had to exclusion when almost every other charge
was placed upon the estimates. Ho wished to have
some explanation, some reason for it, because if there
was any one charge more than another which ought to
be transferred from the consolidated fund it was this
very Maynooth grant. (Hear, hear.) It was proposed
by the late Sir R. Peel on the ground that the poverty of
the students at Maynooth required it, but he had ascer-
tained since the act passed that the plea of poverty was
wholly without foundation. (Hear.) In 1842 Sir F.
Heal, when travelling in Ireland, went to Maynooth, and
he found that a large portion of the new buildings at
that place were uninhabited. The whole Parliamentary
;;rant had been expended in mere carcase building, and
he presumed that the authorities at Maynooth ex-
pected another large grant in order to provide the inte-
rior fittings. What was the object of this misappro-
priation of the Parliamentary grant? He believed that
it was to enable the college to take 725 students, while
Parliament only intended that 520 students should be
received there. All these sacrifices of principle and of
capital were made in order to conciliate Ireland, But