The Sun.
London, England, 1854-06-30 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON,' FRIDAY EVENING, JUNE 30, 1854.

Mr. LAYARD asked if the noble lord would lay on the
table of that house a despatch on the subject of the treaty
of Adrianople, which had been laid ofl the table of the
House of Lords ?

Lord J. RUSSELL—If my hon. friend, or any other
hon. member, will move for the production of the despatch,
there will be no objection to produco it.
Mr. LAYARD said, in that case he gave notice that he
would move that it be laid on the table.
THE NEWSPAPER STAMP.

Mr. MILNER GIBSON wished to put a question to the
Chancellor of the Exchequer on this subject. The right hon.
gentleman had made a reply that evening to the hon. mem-
ber for Meath (Mr. Lucas) which he (Mr. M. Gibson) did
. not understand, and which did not correspond with a
former answer he had given on the same subject the other
day. The right hon. gentleman now said that the newspa-
per stamp was not under the consideration of the Govern-
- went with a view to legislation, and that the Government
set at nought the resolution of that house. (No, no.) Well,
he understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have
just said that the Government had no particular intention
to deal with the subject, and that when they had such they
would give due notice of it—(hear, hoar) —but the other
day the right hon. gentleman stated that the subject was
not only under th t consideration of the Government (for
to that much weight could not be attached),but that it was
under their special consideration. (Cries of "order.") He
therefore wished to ask the right hon. gentleman whether
the house was to understand from his answer that the Go-
vernment had no intention of legislating on this subject?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I am quite
sure that the right hon. gentleman, as he has himself stated,
did not hear or understand the answer that I gave this
evening, otherwise he never could by possibility have made
a representation so entirely different from its tenour and
purport as he has just made. (Hear.) I did not retract
or change a syllable that I uttered on a former occasion.
What I said when the question was put before was, that
the Government had requested the Attorney-General to
take into his consideration, with a view to legislation, the
state of the law ; and I then said that the matter was still
under consideration. I was asked to-day if we had yet come
to any decision, and I have already said that we have not,
and that when we have I will give full notice of it to the
house.

resting debate of this evening had convinced him that the But he has relieved me ficim any difficulty upon one head,
clause, as it now stood, would perpetuate abuse, and he "vhich indeed would have been a difficulty of a most oppres-
must therefore support the amendment of ilia Chancellor ••
FLT er , h e .t, namely, 'if he had impugned the conduct of
of the Exchequer. - - Ave C
Mr. HENLEY combated some of the arguments of the `the British officers and gallant men who were employed on
hon. member for Kidderminster (Mr. Lowe), which, he , the service now in question. (Hear, hear.) The right
contended, were full of sophistry and erroneous conchs,- hon. gentleman says, and says very truly, that those
sions. He complained of the Chancellor of the Exchequer officers and men have executed their duty honourably,
for having sneered at the' fellows of Winchester, because and have faithfully obeyed their instructions, and are
they came from Berkshire, and were country clergymen.
Such a tone was quite unworthy the position or character ; not open to any censure whatever, so far as the autho-
of the right hon. gentleman, and could only be equalled , rity presiding over naval affairs is concerned, in the
by his conduct in altering without nctice the preamble of conduct which they had pursued. Any blame attached to
this bill, having reference to the intentions of founders. i them attaches -to the Government and to those who em-
He believed himself that good faith demanded that this
PY lo ed them,not to the men themselves. (Hear.)
and he should certainly vote against the amendment.
•clause should be retained in its original and existing form, and
it is
Now, sir, I know not that expedient, as the matter
Sir T. ACLAND was of opinion that the alteration pro. now stands, that I should offer any elaborate defence with
posed by his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Ex- reference to the instructions given for the destruction of
chequer would operate very detriinentally to the interests. Russian property. We all know that it is among the other
of Tiverton School. (Hear, hear.)
objects of war to burn and destroy the property of the
Mr. J. GePHILLIMORE complained that the house
was taken by surprise by this clause ; and ho trusted that-
enemy ,• and although the right hon. gentleman says that
the Scotch members would not be induced to vote for it in it is a fiction to call Finland a part of Russia, yet for the
consequenceof the exemption of the Snell exhibition (Hear.) ' last 20 years at least that has been a sad reality--(hear,
It might show skilful artifice and ingenious device to pro- hear)--and Finland has been treated by Russia the same
pose this clause, but however small might bo the minority,
he should vote against it. The hon. member for Kidder- 'as Riga, or any other part of her territories on the oppo.
spinster in his flippant speech had altogether thrown over . site shore of the Baltic. And then, with respect to the
the consideration of justice and feeling in this matter. It articles to which the right hon. gentleman referred, viz.,
was easy to understand persons undertaking a trust desi-
rous to get rid of the obligation, but nothing was gained cordage, timber, tar, and the other articles destroyed on
this occasion, the house must be aware that with regard to
by disregarding the principle of justice; and the time might
arrive when the precedent which this clause set might b a • Sweden and Denmark we have treaties of neutrality in
dangerous precedent. The hon. member quoted former which certain articles are specified, which even with refe-
language of the Chancellor of the Exchequer quite opposed ' rence to neutrality are held to be contraband of war ; and
to his present views, and in conformity with those of the i the very articles which were in this instance destroyed are
hon. and learned member for Plymouth. The right hon.
' so enumerated in these treaties, and in our treaties both
gentleman on a former occasion said that examination was
with
often a most fallacious test, and he now held opposite lan- ISweden and Denmark. While these countries pre-
guage. On a former occasion the right hon. gentleman had : servo their neutrality, they are prohibited from conveying
said, that "as regarded the eleemosynary foundations there ' to the enemy timber, cordage, pitch, tar, and others,
could be no doubt that an individual deliberating within
which were the very articles we have destroyed in the '
enemy's ports; and had they been found by British himself whether he should divide a portion of his sub-
crui-
stance for the furtherance of education sere proceeding from Denmark or Sweden to any Russian
would be much in-
fluenced by the consideration that any Minister of the
Crown who must be the creature of the majority, at any port, even by the law of nations, apart from these treaties,
given moment--(a laugh—might institute an in if they could have been dealt with as contraband of war.
o ,
the mode in which the intentions of the donorair as t
ought to
, Now, I think I cannot do better than quote from the
be carried into effect." (Hear, hear.) After such an ex- !despatches of Sir Charles Napier; which we received only
J. G. Phillimore) could not I this morning, giving a summary of what has been done
pression of opinion he (Mr.
tin the Gulf of Bothnia. They inclose the report of
understand how the Chancellor of the Exchequer could Admiral Plumridge on the occurrences between the sth
attempt to take the house by surprise, as he did by the of May and the 10th of June, by which you will observe
present change. He trusted the house would not consent that he has destroyed forty-six vessels afloat and on
to take the institutions of Oxford from the rock of settled the stocks, amounting altogether to 11,000 tons of shipping.
prescription on which they now stood, and place them on Now, that is the first operation. It has been said that we
the fluctuating wave of a Parliamentary majority, have been unsuccessful in destroying the Russian fleets.
" Lift not thy spear against the muse's bower ; ,Well, but Russia has not afforded us any opportunity of
The great Emathian conqueror bad spare doing it. (Hear.) We have to deal with an enemy who has
The house of Pindarus when temple and tower boasted that the Baltic and the Black Seas are to be re-
Went to the ground ; and the repeated air garded as his own lakes. We have entered thOse seas with
Of sad Electra's Poet had the power our allies, the French, and given the enemy opportunities
To save the Athenian walls from ruin bare." of meeting our fleets on many occasions with a superior
Mr. HEYWOOD expressed his intention to support the force ; but he has skulked and remained in his retreat.
amendment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. DUNLOP said the appeal of Mr. Phillimore was (Cheers.) We have offered him battle on fair terms, but
quite unnecessary, for the Scotch members had determined he has declined. Whilst we have occupied his seas his
fleets have not ventured to appear either with his ships of
on what course they ought to adopt before that appeal had war or merchantmen • and we have been driven to the
been made to them. (Hear, hear.) They were now secure alternative of visiting their ports and destroying their mer-
themselves, but they would not act so unfairly and so in- chantmen upon their own shores. This we have done to
consistently as not to support those who were in the same the extent that I have mentioned in the Gulf of Bothnia,
danger as that from which they (the Scotch members) had in about three weeks, during which Admiral Plumridge
just escaped. (Loud cheers.) has destroyed 11,000 tons of Russian shipping. Of 'other
The house then divided— property destroyed there has been 50,000 barrels of pitch
For the amendment
Against it '
Majority -----10 and various other kinds of stores, amounting in value to
The, amendment was therefore lost. The result of the between 300,0001. and 400,0001. Admiral Plumridge says
division created much excitement, and the cheering lasted that the ice was not entirely broken up on the 30th of May,
some minutes. and Although several ships of the squadron had touched
The bill was then passed. ground, he was happy to say none had received any damage
THE CONDUCT OF THE BALTIC FLEET. of consequence ; and he also spoke in the highest terms of
the captains, officers, seamen, and marines, and particularly
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair for of Lieutenant Priest,' an old and deserving officer. As re-
the purpose of going into committee of supply, lates then to the success of the operation, we have it that
Mr. M. GIBSON said he was desirous of asking some 11,000 tons of the enemy's ships have been destroyed, and
explanation from the right hon. gentleman the First Lord from 400,0001. to 500,0001. worth of his property. Now
is said that a portion of this is British property. No
of the Admiralty, and as he could ask those explanations doubt. It is impossible to make war with a foreign power
now with as little interruption to public business as at any with which for a very long period we have entertained.
future time, he would take this opportunity of doing so, the most amicable relations and carried on a most ex-
(Hear, hear.) Communication had been made to him by tensive commerce, without inflicting very considerable_ yon our own merchants. But this is among the gyeat
in-
persons in whom he had the fullest confidence, and state- jeuvlls of war itself, and if you are really to inflict injury
meats had also been made in the public papers, relative to upon your enemy it is impossible, at the commencement
the proceedings of a portion of the British squadronin the. of a war, with a sudden rupture of commercial relations
Baltic, and if the information which he had received and occurring, to avoid entailing some incidental evil of the'
the statements to which he had' alluded wore not correct, same kind upon your own countrymen. But the right
he should be very glad to have them contradicted; but if hon, gentleman said there was a blockade : he has been-
misinformed—there wag no blockade at Uleaborg.
they were correct, he thought the circumstances which had Mr. M, GIBSON—I did not say that there was.
taken place wore inconsistent with the professions of the Sir J. GRAHAM—The right hon. gentleman said that
Government, as they were certainly considered by persons he understood that an application had been made
Board of Admiralty with respect to the export from toU_lea-
the
who were anxious that this war should be carried on with
borg of certain pitch and tar which was intended to be de-
vigour against the Russians to be highly impolitic. (Hear.) livered under contract to the English Admiralty, and that
On these grounds he thought the house was entitled to ask a request was made that a licence should be granted by
an explanation from the Government; and he begged to which the blockade might be avoided.
state that he did not rise with the slightest desire to cast Mr. M. GIBSON—AIIoW me to explain. I said I un-
any reproach upon Admiral Plumridge or the officers of 'derstood that the parties, fearing there might be a block-
her Majesty's squadron, who ne doubt in anything which ade, and being under contract to deliver tar for the use of
they had done had been guided solely by a desire to per- the British dockyards, asked that, in the event of there
form strictly their duty, and had deviated 'neither to the being a blockade, they might have a license to pass the
right hand nor to the left, but bad been actuated solely by blockading s uadron ; and that intimation was given them
that which always characterised the officers of her Ma- that licenses could not be granted, but that if neutral yes-
q
jesty's navy—a steady adherence to the path which duty sels were sent to Uleaborg for the goods, care would be
pointed out to them to take. (Hear, hear.) He put this taken that they should be allowed to pass without let or
question, therefore, to the First Lord of the Admiralty, hindrance.
with a view of obtaining an explanation of the policy, for Sir J. GRAHAM—At all events there certainly was no
which he presumed the right hon. gentleman and his col- blockade, and by agreement between France and England,
leagues wore responsible, and not with a desire to throw if there had been one, no licenses could have been granted.
odium or reproach on those who he had no doubt might But according to the law of nations, for a certain time be-
have in the course of the war very painful duties to per- fore a blockade is instituted ships that have taken in cargo
form. (Hear, hear.) Now the facts, as he was informed, and been laden before its institution, would bo entitled to
wore these :—There was a small town in the Gulf of Both- pass without molestation and without damage. Now this is
nil called Uleaborg, which was a purely commercial place, a case in which the squadron visits the enemy's ports for
and which, when visited in the course of the present month the purpose of destroying his property and inflicting on him
by three of her Majesty's vessels, was found to be in a per- what is, under the circumstances I have stated, a very mate-
fectly defenceless state, not having a single fortified place rial and serious injury to him. The right hon. gentleman,
nor any munitions of war. (Hear.) Deputations from the I think, said that there were no preparation. of a war-like
inhabitants went out in a boat to eseneeeeieete with the character at the ports he had named, and no property be-
admiral, and to ask him his intentions, and they informed longing to the Government of Russia there. Now the house
him, at the same time, that they were' entirely defenceless must remember that the fleets of Russia declining the con-
and threw themselves upon his mercy. This deputation went filet in the manner I have described, we have been threat-
offin consequenceofhavingheard thatat Brahestadt, aneigh- ened with a swarm of gun-boats, which were in course of
bouring town, considerable stores had been burnt by order preparation, in order to inflict injury upon our larger ships
of the British admiral, end that it was probable similar in shallow water, and in narrow seas. As a measure of pre-
occurrences would take place at Uleaborg. The admiral caution-Sir C. Napier most wisely determined upon visit-
replied to their inquiry as to his intentions by giving them ing all the ports where he thought these gun-boats might
five copies of a proclamation, in which he stated that he be taking shelter, or in the course of fitting out, and in the
would not injure or molest private persons or their pro- reports which we have received to-day we find that Capt.
perty, that he only intended to destroy the castles and de- Giffard, of the Leopard, says, he himself landed and saw
fences, the shipping and property of the Emperor of Rus- what took place at Brahestadt.' He says there were burnt
sia ; and so long as the inhabitants continued in their on shore and totally destroyed four large vessels that were
houses they would be protected, but that if they offered building, and nearly completed on the stocks, and that the
assistance to the Russian troops they would be treated as largest of them was nearly 500 tons, and had been pierced
enemies. The deputation remarked thereupon, that in for 6 guns, that two detached store-houses were destroyed,
that case they had nothing to fear, for that they had containieg many thousand barrels of pitch, tar, and oil.
neither soldiers nor fortresses, nor contraband of war; and Tell, but it is alleged that this was private property ;
when the admiral referred to the fact that there was a and what says Captain Giffard? _He says that "a large,
quantity of tar and timber, and other materials for ship number of them were marked with the Imperial crown. '
building in the place, they replied that these materials (Hear, hear.) With regard to the respect shown to pri-
were not intended for the construction of vessels of war. vete property he also says : " I was careful not to inflict
That, 'to a great extent, they were British property ; and damage upon the private houses and property. At the same
that several merchants had received advances from England time I satisfied myself that there were no articles contra-
to assist them in making shipments of tar. The admiral, band of war secreted in the houses near the town which I
on this, observed that if there was British property in the did not destroy. There were two large stores in the out-
place he could not help it, but that he must do his duty,
skirts of the town which were found to contain flour. These
and in ten minutes he should begin. (Hear, hear.) With were not destroyed, as I had reason for supposing they were
the proclamation nobody could find fault, for it was en- private property." Again he says : " All the officers
tirely in acecce-dance with its principles that property under, my orders have co-operated with me in preventing
should be respected, and that, unless the exigencies of the
unnecessary alarm to the inhabitants; and I feel it my duty
war required it, it should not be interfered with • that, to report the alacrity, great steadiness, and good conduct
in fact, there should bo no wanton interference with pri- displayed by all the officers and seamen employed in this
vate property. But, in respect to this private property, service." (Cheers), Here again is an account of what took
he was informed that information was given and evidence place at Uleaborg. "I searched, but finding no stores
taken,—for he understood that officers had landed and had with articles contraband of war I re-embarked, and pur•
seen and judged for themselves—that it was entirely com- sued two schooners, of which information had reached us."
inercial in its character, and was intended to be shipped Well, I should detain the house unnecessarily if I went
for this country. He was told that not a particla of that more at large into these despatches, which, as I have al-
properteeebelonged to the Russian Government. There ready said; will be printed in the Gazette of to-morrow
were no gun-boats building ; there were no gun-boats night. They will bear out my assertion, that the officers,
built. A great part of it was unquestionably English, and to the best of their judgment, only sought articles that
had probably been bought and paid for before the declare- were contraband of war—that they only destroyed that
tion of war, for it could not have been removed earlier in which they found afloat and ashore, which they had po-
consequence of the ice. That being the case, and it being the sitivo orders to destroy—that according to the rules of war
property of an enemy, of an Emperor of Russia, according ' that destruction was not only justified, but it was their
to the practice of war the Emperor of Russia was much more duty to effect it, and I muse say that the position of' Brit-
likely to have seized it than themselves. Ho was told ish officers and seamen will be hard indeed if they are or-
that in point of fact there was a considerable quantity of dered to use their utmost efforts, both by sea and laud, to
tar there which was the property of perties in London who inflict the greatest injury lesson the enemy, and then,
had contracted with the Admiralty to supply tar for the when they have done their duty, they are to bo met in
use of her Majesty's dockyards • and was intended to have this manner. (Hear). Admiral Plumedge and his
been delivered from part of that supply. He was informed squadron have in the most gallant and exemplary manner
'encountered peculiar difficulties. They entered a sea
that the parties who had undertaken this contract apprised
the Government of this country that they had bought and almost unknown and never traversed before by our ships
paid for the tar, but that it was at Uleaborg in Finland, of war. All lights were extinguished--all the buoys
and sinless some license or permission were granted, to taken up—they had no pilots and no charts. Up
.to the
allow it to be brought through the blockades quadron, the tat of June the ice was not broken up ; and yet in the
contract could not be fulfilled. He understood the answer short space of three weeks, with all these difficulties
was that though no license could be given, yet if neutral to contend with, 'and frequently running the ships
aground, and yet extricating them again,
vessels were sent to Uleaborg to fetch the tar, they would
be allowed to pass unharmed threugh the squadron, and to with the
best seaman-like qualities, from the danger, with com-
bring the tar home for the use of her Majesty's vessels. So paratively a very small loss of life indeed, and without
that instead of burning the property of the Emperor of having killed a single civilian, or committed any acts of
Russia, they burnt what was wanted bysand what would have t plunder, not having the slightest regard for prize-money—
come into the use of her Majesty's Government. If he was (hear, hear)—and having still inflicted so much and such
wrong in this, he should be happy to hear it contradicted by heavy injury upon the enemy, I say it will be hard in-
the right hon. gentleman. But if this tar was under con- deed, if at the commencement of a war involving immense
tract to be delivered to our Government, its destruction by
difficulties and sacrifices, it shall be related to our gallant
Admiral Plumridge's squadron would give rise to a case of officers and seamen that the first notice taken of their con-
compensation ; and the British public would have claims duct in the British House of Commons partook of the chae
made upon it similar to the Danish claims for the loss of racter of censure. (Cheers.) I ask, sir, why is this • par-
th3 property destroyed. Now, he questioned the policy of titular indulgence to be shown to this enemy ? (Hear,
making these attacks upon private property in smell defence- hear.) What has been the policy of the British Govern-
less 'villages on the coast of Finland. England could have mont with respect to him ? What are we to understand to
no object to gein in exasperating the population of be the wish and the feeling of the people of this country?
Finland, the trade of these ports being almost exclusively
We did commence this war by exercising peculiar forbear-
carried on with this country. No doubt the laws of war ante, and Admiral Dundas having it in his power to de-
would justify such a proceeding, if it could be shown that
stroy the city of Odessa, yet spared that city—he attacked
the exigencies of war required it; but such a case of neces- only the batteries. There has been something like censure
sity had yet to be made out. The right honourable gentle-
cast upon him for his forbearance, and I must say that I
man then quoted a statement which he had received from myself may now begin to partake of that feeling. A flag
certain gentlemen in the city of London, whose sympathies of truce was fired upon, and a British ship-of-war having
he said were favourable to the carrying on this war, but by accident run ashore in a fog, immediately an immense
who took the view he had stated of these transactions in the multitude of Russian soldiers with batteries and red-hot'
Gulf of Bothnia. They said that from the accounts they had shot bore down and fired upon that stranded vessel, so that
received from Finland, it appeared that the English landed I cannot say that any particular forbearance is now due to
-at Uleaborg, and set fire immediately to several vessels which such an enemy. (Cheers.) Whether they be Fins or who-
-were upon the stocks, and ono of which had just been
ther they be Russians, we offer them battle in open sea and
launched, and also to a large quantity of timber and deals, 'upon fair and equal terms, and they decline it, they sink
and from 17,000 to 20,000 barrels of tar on board the vessels rocks in the channels, and approaches to their harbOurs,
in the harbour - that the whole, or nearly so, of the property for fear of our reaching them, and every way obstruct our
thus destroyed was private property, and some of it be- access to them. Well, I say, if they will not meet us in
longed to Englishmen; that its destruction could only the open sea, we must visit them in their own homes, and
affect the Russian Government in carrying on the war very teach them that a war with England is not to be engaged
indirectly ; that the Russian Government could easily ob- in with impunity. (Cheers.) I myself and my colleagues
tarn other supplies of tar; but that the greater part of the also should certainly be much embarrassed if it is to
tar in question was intended for her Majesty's dockyards, be thought that this house discourages proceedings like
and for English shipowner+, who would experience great those which are not of a marauding character, nor for
difficulty in finding other supplies of the article. There- the purpose of obtaining prize money, nor without refer-
fore he (Mr. Gibson) said that to call this tar and other ence to the- feelings and losses of unoffending persons,
.goods contrabaud of war was an absurdity, and he conceived but where there has been an honest desire to make the
that it had been - destroyed wantonly and unnecessarily, enemy of this country feel the power of the force with which
and contrary to the assurances held out by Admiral Plum- that enemyis now contending by fair and legitimate means.
ridge. Such proceedings could only give offence to the (Hear.) I for one am not prepared to check the pursuit of
Finlanders, and also to the Swedes, who were our best such a course ; and I hope
and believe that in so acting I
friends. He (Mr. Gibson) wished to guard himself against and my colleagues will not violate either the feelings or
being supposed to reflect upon the naval offices's concerned the sentiments of the people of England. (Loud and gene-
inral cheering, amidst which the right hon. baronetsat down.)
only
these trausactions, because he believed that they had
only acted upon their instructions. All he asked from the
Government was, that they should vindicate the policy they RECENT MINE-TERIAL CHANGES.
had pursued in the circumstances which he had brought Lord D. STUART was received with cries of "Oh !" on
under the notice of the house. rising to call attention to the recent changes in the Mini-

Sir J. GRAHAM—Sir, I was not exactly aware that stry.- He complained of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. M.
the right hon. gentleman intended this evening to go into Gibson) taking precedence, when the notice he had given
much detail on this subject.; and I therefore did not bring appeared first on the paper, and prooeeded to observe that
down all the despatches with reference to this subject. They he wished it had fallen into abler hands than his to bring
only arrived this morning, and to-morrow they will be pub- forward the subject. He had waited to see if some such
lished in the Gazette, and then the house and the public would not be given from some han. or right hon. gentle-
will be better enabled to form their opinion upon the ou• I men, from
ownheogspitowseadst?s,o: esontatuornal4 to expect
the g,iaara
j. it but
Minutione4 to whiel4 right tam SLIM DillAbdt that httiiAtiQA 91110:1t t 4 be cellel to•tbele e_beDill'esTris

purpose of having certain clauses proposed by Mr. Napiet
added, and—
An Irish Mrmnrn objecting to the motion, straw/we
were ordered to withdraw. The committee divided, erten
there appeared--
For the motion
Against it 2O
Majority in favour of the motion
The house then went into committee.
Mi. FOX, however, immediately
man should report progress. moved that the &air.
Lord J. RUSSELL explained that it was only intended
to go into committee pro forma, for the purpose of pre.
seating the bill to the house in an amended form..
After a conversation, in which several hon. numbers
joined,
Mr. I. BUTT remarked that it was rather an unconr.
teous thing to refuse to go into committee pro forma, on the
request of an hon. member having charge of a bill, inorder
to enable him to lay it before the house in the form he
wished. Ho would, however, suggest that the object of
his right hon. friend (Mr. Napier) would be fully gained
by printing the amendments he proposed to introduce into
the bill as a separate paper.
Mr. NAPIER said that he had proposed to go into con.
mittee pro forma merely for the convenience of the house;
but as that course was objected to, he would consent that
the chairman should report progress.
The house then resumed.
THE USURY LAWS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved
for leave to bring iu a bill for the repeal of the usury laws.
At that Into hey (one o'clock) he could not ask the atten-
tion of the house, but would fully state the objects of the
measure on the second reading.
Mr. SPOONER could not assent to this course. He did
not think that a bill of this importance should be intro-
duced at that hour, and without any explanation of its
provisions.
Mr. BROTHERTON moved the adjournment of the
house.
Upon this question the house divided.
The numbers were—
For the adjournment of the house,.... 13
Against it
Majorit y
The SPEAKER then put the question that leave be given
to bring in the bill.
Colonel DUNNE, however, moved that the debate be
now adjourned.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER complained
that the course taken by the honourable and gallant gen.
tletnan was an unusual one.
Mr. SPOONER said he objeuted to the motion because
the bill was attempted to be brought in sub tii,entiO.
The house then divided, when the result was—
For the adjournment of the debate.,,,. 18
Again5t...............................47
Majority
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER —29
would now
briefly state to the house the object of the bill. Though
it bore the ambitious title of a bill to repeal the usury laws,
the fact was that the usury laws, except on a particular
point, were already repealed. The change of sentiment on
this subject had been very great of late years. In the reign
of Elizabeth an act was passed limiting the rate of interest
to 10 per cent. ; in the reign of James I. it was limited to $;
in that of Charles IL, to 6 per cent. ; and in the reign of
Anne, the act which was the basis of the present law
limited the rate of interest to 5 per cent. ; but while the
aim was to put shackles on the freedom of private indi.
victuals, it was fuund in practice that the State was the
great offenders against these laws. The law it was pro.
posed to repeal was the law that prohibited loans of money
at a greater rate of interest than 5 per cent., when founded
on real securities. The kind of transactions chiefly affected
was mortgages on land in Scotland, and railway debentures
in England. As regarded the mortgages on land in Scot.
land, they might occasionally hear of them as low as at 3
or 4 per cent , the practice being to fix the rates of interest
at very short times, ranging from 12 to 18 months. In times
of scarcity of money there was often a great pressure on
the landed proprietors so circumstanced, and serious incon•
veuience was the consequence, because if a man were not able
to allow more than 5 per cent. on a temporary pressure for
money, he was liable to be subjected to sudden demands
on the part of the lender calling in his money. It was
obviously better for the borrower to be able to gives the
market price of money for the amount borrowed than to be
called on suddenly to pay up a large sum that he might and
it very difficult to obtain. (Hear, hear.) The other
class of securities that were affected were railway deben-
tures. He believed that, if they were to rip up the
history of many of our railway companies, it would be
found that the usury laws had driven them to constan
evasions of the law. It was proposed therefore to give
them the most perfect freedom in the money-market.
They had already recognised the principle of freedom of
trade as applicable to money, and let them not keep up a
fragment, a mere shadow of the law, that had the effect
of driving men to all kinds of shifts and tricks to evade it.
(Hear, hear.) Let the landed proprietor and the railway
proprietor go into the market free and unshackled like
other people, and then would be completed entire and un--
restricted freedom of trade in all that related to the bor-
rowing and lending of money. (Hear, hear.) He then
moved for leave to bring in a bill to repeal the weary
laws. (Hear.)
Colonel BLAIR again moved the adjournment of the
debate. (A laugh.) He would not have taken this course
but for the con tuot of the Government on Tuesday night
towards the gallant admiral the member for Christchurch,
when he was desirous of bringing in a measure. (Hear.)
After a short conversation, Colonel BLAIR consents
to withdraw his motion.

had himself given the notice which appeared upon the
paper. He felt that, however much apology was needed
for his own inability, nollapology was necessary for the dis-
charge of a duty entirely constitutional and consistent with
Parliamentary practice. The appointment of persons to
the highest offices of the State was a matter of the greatest
importance to the nation, and therefore' deserving to be
carefully exernined. (Hear, hear.) These discussions had
usually taken place in a change of administration, and it
might be said there had been no change of administration.
But there had been considerable changes in the administra-
tion, and those changes affected the positions of five or six
Cabinet Ministers, and one who held a high office without a
seat in the Cabinet. They had caused one resignation and
ttii o Parliamentary elections. They had conferred an office
of great dignity and trust on ono member, and placed an-
other in a position of less consequence, and importance.
They had added to the Cabinet a right hon. gentleman who
before did not belong to the Government.. They had created
an office hitherto unknown to the constitution. They had
altered considerably the position of another Cabinet minis-
ter, and they had deprived the Government altogether of
the services of another gentleman. No ono could feel any-
thing but pleasure at seeing his noble friend the leader of
the house (Lord J. Russell) filling the high offi_e of Presi-
dent of tile) Council. He should rejoice to see him in a place
of still grdater distinction, filling the first post in her Ma-
jestys councils, because ho thought the noble lord rather
conferred than received dignity from any office he might ac-
cept. That change had rendered another necessary, and some
explanation was to be expected to account for Earl Gran-
ville, who had filled the office of Secretary of State for Fo-
reign Affairs, being content to sink into the easy somnolent
chair of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and thereby
elbow out the right hon. gentleman the member for Not-
tingham. That right hon. gentleman had given his ex-
planation, but explanation ought to be given by the Go-
vernment, for he could not help thinking the hon. member
(Mr. Strutt) had received what in common parlance was
called very scurvy treatment. Another change was in the
addition of the right honourable baronet the member for
Morpeth (Sir G. Grey), a gentleman of great administrative i
abilities and unsullied character, who brought an accession
of strength to the Government, but whose career in a
subordinate place in the colonial department made his
appointment as Secretary of State for the colonies appear
rather unfortunate. He was disposed to see in it an illus-
tration of that saying which had been applied to the pre-
sent Government, that the parts had been so cast that all
the square men were in round holes, and all the round men
in square holes. (Laughter.) Another change was the
removal of the noble duke (the Duke of Newcastle) from
the office of Secretary of State for the Colonies to that of
Minister of War. The house was promised explanation as
to what would be the duties of the new Minister of War,
but the change affected materially the position of tha right
hon. gentleman the Secretary at War (Mr. Sidney Herbert).
Before there was one Cabinet Minister to two departments,
or half a one to each, but now they had two Cabinet
Ministers to one department, and that the department of
war. If the Minister of war was to have complete con-
trol over the war, then the First Lord of the Admiralty
would be affected. However that might be, there was
one thing remarkable, that the whole conduct cf the war
was entrusted to the hands of gentlemen belonging to one
particular section in the Cabinet, to which the Prime
Minister himself belonged. The Minister at War, the
Secretary at War, the First Lord of the Admiralty, and
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who financially had a
great deal to do with the war, were all Peelites. (Hear.)
That which gave to the subject of the creation of a war
minister the greatest interest was the expectation that the
office would bo confided to no other than the noble lord
the member for Tiverton. (Loud and protracted cheering.)
That had been the expectation of the country, and all the
friends of the country. (Hear, hear.) That had been the
dread of all the enemies of this country. (Cheers. If the
noble lord had come down and moved a new writ for Tiver-
ton, and
.informed the house that Lord Palmerston had
accepted the office of Secretary of State for the War De-
partment, the announcement would have been received
with cheers, which would have echoed through the country
and met with a response on the Damibe and the Vistula,
in the Black Sea and in the Baltic. (Cheers.) That was
the man who ought to be Minister of War. (Loud cheers.)
He acknowledged 'the zeal, the talents, and the courtesy
of the noble duke, but he did not think the Duke of New-
castle would have been offended or hurt if the noble lord,
with his unrivalled energy, and more than European repu-
tation, had been pre-erred. He denied that the noble duke
was entitled to select what office he would retain when
the two he had held were divided, because the single
consideration with the Prime Minister ought to have
been to appoint the best man, whoever he might be,
without regard to any personal considerations. (Hear,
hear.) The noble lord (Lord Palmerston) had had
nineteen years' experience during the most difficult
and terrible war in which this couutry had ever engaged,
and that being so, it was the more incredible advan-
tage had not been taken to secure his services in the mode
most conducive to the public interest. (Hear.) He sup-
posed no man could tell how many years had passed over
the noble lord's head. (Laughter.) There were very few
men arrived at his time of life who had the same physical
strength and mental vigour. (Laughter.) Not that age
should be held an objection in official appointments. Ad-
miral Duudas was pretty nearly as old as the noble lord
himself. (Laughter.) Lord Raglan was not much younger ;
while, as for "Old Charlie" himself, though he might have
the advantage of a few years more, he was the most vigo-
rous of the whole lot. . (Greet laughter.) But to return to
the noble lord, was it not a shame that a man like that,
with his capacity, with his reputation, with his political ex-
perience, of half a century, should 'waste his time and his
powers in dealing with common sewers, county rates, and
armies, not of soldiers, but of policemen? (Cheers and laugh-
ter.) It was difficult to believe that people were in earnest
if they did not take the means best calculated to carry out
the object which they professed a desire to attain. (Hear,
hear.) Hedoubted whether the Government were in earnest
aboutsthe war ; he 'did not doubt that the noble lord
was the best man to direct it ; let him be appointed,
and then both friend and foe would see and feel that the
Government were in earnest. (Hear) Such an appoint-
ment would be far better than all the recantations, retrac-
tations, anti explanations which had been made in another
place. (Laughter.) It would be better than professions of a
desire to carry on the war with vigour, than the produc-
tion of despatches. already refugee in that house, for pur-
poses of personal vindication, or than any observations
about "disastrous" treaties, intended, if possible, to neu-
tralise the effect of " disastrous" speeches. (Cheers and
laughter.) Something must be done if the Government in-
tended to reacquire the confidence of the house and the
country. That confidence, long declining, wee now pretty
well lost, as was shown by the proceedings of that house.
What measure had the Government been able to carry ?
'What measure. had they not been obliged to postpone or
withdraw? What universities had they been in? (Laughter.)
That showed that they were not in the position which they
ought to be. It was true they had carried the taxes for the
war, but what was the reason of that? Why, because the
people, whatever the Government might be, were really
in earnest, and because the house shared in their feelings,
and therefore would not refuse the necessary means for
prosecuting the war with vigour, but neither the people
nor the house would tolerate half measureei tear would they
have a balf-and-half Ministry. (Cheers and laughter.)
Mr. WILLIAMS hoped the Government had no inten-
tion to go on with_ supply at that late hour—(a quarter to
12 o'clock.)
Cries were raised. for Mr. Brotherton, but
Mr. 'WILSON immediately rose, and said he would have
no objection to postpone supply till to-morrow.

Leave was then given to bring in the bill, which WM
read a first time.

LETTERS PATENT FOR INVENTIONS.
Mr. PELLATT obtained leave to bring in a bill to
enable the Lord Chancellor, in certain cases, to extend the
time for sealing letters patent for inventions and filing
specifications for a more extended time from the expiraft
tion of the term of provisional protection,
The house adjourned at a-quarter to 2 o'clock.

SPORTING INTELUGENCE.

STOCKBRIDGF. RACES.
THURSDAY.

THE THIRD YEAR OF THE FOURTH TRIENNIAL STAKES
of 10 'ova each, for 4-yr-olds ; colts, Bst 101 b ; fillies,
Bst slb ; certain penalties and allowances. Two miles
and a half. (30 subs.)
Mr. Barber's Cobnut by Nutwith, Bst 101 b (Clement) 1
Mr. Percival's William Rufus, Bst 101 b (A. Day) 2
Mr. W. Day's Pharos (31b), Bst 71b (W. Day) 3
Betting-5 to 2on Cobnut, who took a strong lead,
maintained it throughout, and won by eight lengths.
The third beaten off a long way.
FIRST YEAR OF THE SIXTH STOCKBRIDGE TRIENNIAL
STAKES of 10 soya each, for 2-yr-olds ; colts, Bst 101 b ;
fillies, Bst 51b ; untried stallions or mares allowed 31b.,
T. Y.C. (63 subs.)
Mr. Bowes's The Bonnie Morn by Chanticleer, Bst 101 b
(A. Day) 1
Mr. J. Clark's The Hind, fist 51b (Whitehouse) 2
Mr. Powell's Dartmouth, Bst 101 b (Yates) 3
The following also ran :—Shoreham, Arnaut, Namur,
and Varna.

Betting-3 to lon Bonnie Morn, sto 1 bar one on
the field. Namur and Varna made the running alter-
nately to the distance, where Bonnie Morn drew up
and quickly obtained the lead. The Hind immediately
took second place and went vigorously to work to catch
him, but was defeated very easily by two lengths.
Very bad third.

STAMP ACTS.
The house then went into committee of supply.
Mr. "WILSON moved that, in lieu of the present stamp
duties, the following should be charged :

DUTIES.

/It the term if the term
51.1411 not shall
exct ed 100 exec ed 100
years. years.
Where the yeirly rent f•hall not exceed 5/. £0 a 0 £0 6 0
And where the same shall exceed Si. and

SECOND YEAR OF THE FIFTH STOCKBRIDGE TRIENNIAL
STAKES of 10 soya each, for 3-yr-olds; colts, Bst 101 b;
fillies, Bst 51b. Certain penalties and allowances.
One mile and a half.- (55 subs.)
Mr. Gully's Andover, by Bay Middleton, Oat 31b (in-
cluding 71b extra) (A. Day) I
Lord Zetland's Ivan, by Van Tromp (allowed 31b),
Bst 71b (J. Marson) 2
Mr. Sargent's The Queen's Own, Bst 101 b (Thick) 3
Mr. William's Loquacious, Bst 51b (W. Day) 4
SWEEPSTAKES of 5 soya. each, with 25 added, for 2-yr-
olds and upwards. Optional selling weights, stc.
T.Y.C. (6 subs.)
Mr. Goodered's f by Harkaway—Red Tape, 2 yrs
(301.), sst 21b ...
Mr. V. King's Matilda, 2 yrs (301.), sst 21b...(Bundy) 2
Mr. Greville's Mandricardo, 3 yrs (501.), 7st 81b (car.
7st 101 b) (Flatnian) 3
Mr. Spencer's' c by lago, dam by Gladiator out of
Marchesina, 2 yrs (301.), sst 51b (Alder) 4
Betting-5 to 4 agst Red Tape filly, sto 2 agst Ma-
tilda, 3to 1 agst Mandricardo. Matilda made the run-
ning to the rails, the favourite then went a-head and weitt
by half a length. Bad third. The winner was afterwards
sold by auction for 180 guineas.

not exceed 101. •• •••••• • • • • • 0 6 0 0 12 0
And where the same shall exceed 101. and
not exceed 15/. •—••••• ••••• • • • • • 0 rs 0 0 16 0
And where the same shall exceed 151. and
not exceed 2 l .... •• •• •• •• •• •• •• • •• 0 12 0 1 4 0
And where the same shall exceed 201. and
not exceed 5/ 0 10 0 1 10 0
And where the same shall exceed 251. and
not exceed 501. • • •.. 1 10 0
And where the same shall exceed 501. and
not exceed 751 • •
And where the same shall exceed 751. mid
0 0
not exeetd 10t. •••••• - - •• 3 °
And where the same shall exceed 1001.,
then for every 501., and also for HnY frac-
tional part of 50/... • .

3 0 0

4 10 0

3 0 0

Mr. HADFIELD complained of the perpetual changes
which it was found necessary to make in these acts, which,
he thought, ought to be more carefully drawn in the first
instance. Notwithstanding the short • time which had
elapsed since the last act, it now found necessary to
amend it. Ho objected to the amendment now proposed,
for ho could see no reason why so great a difference should
be made in leases for 100 years and in those over that
period. The principle was bad, and would only lead to
mischievous results in practice. Ho moved, therefore, to
omit the second column of the hon..member's motion, and
to make the stamp duties on leases irre,pective of their
term.

The STEWARDS' PLATZ of 100 ROM, added to a sweep.
stakes of 10 sovs. each, h ft, 3-yr-olds, fist 10113 ; four,
Bst 41b ; five, 3st 111 b ; six and aged, 9st. Certain
penalties and allowances. Two miles. (82 subs.)
Mr. Gully's The Hermit, by Bay Middleton, 3 yrs, 7st
lib (including 51b extra) , (Wells)
Mr W. Smith's Little David, 4 yrs, Bst 41b (Hornsby) 2
Lord W. Powlett's Sharavogue, 5 yrs, Bst 111 b.
(S. Rogers) 3
The following also ran :—The Poacher, Barrel, and
Ireland's Eye.
A doubt having been raised as to the exact weight
Hermit was to carry, the stewards decided that he was
hahle to carry only 51b extra for winning the Two
Thousand.

Lord GALWAY objected to a discussion being taken at
that late hour on this important point.
Mr. WILSON reminded the committee that this was
but a preliminary resolution, necessary in order to enable
the Government to bring in a bill, and ho would therefore
suggest to his lion. friend to allow it to pass and to
make his objection in committee upon the bill. If his
hon. friend would assent to this there would be no nt,ed to
discuss the principle of the proposed alteration at that time.
The question would then have been before the house for
some time.

Mr. HADFIELD would rather take the opinion of the
committee at once. . _
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought it desirable that the
committee should know exactly what ch Inge was to be
made, and why it was to be made.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that.
this very resolution had been prepared in order to meet
some objections which had been made to the Stamp Act by
hon. member who was opposed to it. The hon. gentle-
man (Mr. Hadfield) had on various occasions urged objec-
tions to the present duties, considering that they were too
high, and did not make sufficient distinction between con-
veyances out and out and long terms of years, and it had
been the endeavour of the Government in this resolution
to meet these objections. It seemed to him that leases
generally ought to be divided into three classes ; the first
consisted of short farming and other leases, seldom exceed-
ing more than 35 years. The next class was building leases,
which generally extended to 99 years, and the third class
were those over 100 years. This last class approximated to
conveyances out and out, and therefore it was thought only
right that they should bear an increased rate of duty. They
proposed to fix the charge on leases of from 35 years to 100,
at one quarter the charge for conveyances in fee, and on
leases under 25 years the charge would remain as at pro
-
sent. Chief rent would bo the same charge as if for a leaser.
above 100 years.
Mr. BRIGHT did not think that the right hon.gentle-
man had -much mended his original proposition There
were three descriptions of property affected. Annual al rents
under 100 years, and above 35 ; annual rents above 100
years, and leases in perpetuity. The first the right hon.
gentleman increased six times, the second, twelve times,
and the last he reduced one-half. Would it not have been
fairer to have had au ad valorem stamp duty on all. The
plan cf the right hon. gentleman only made the inconsis-
tencies of the duty more arina. than they were before.
He contended that the annual rent was the true test of
value, and that upon that an ad valorem duty should be
levied.
Mr. HENLEY suggested that the committee should re-
port progress.
After a few words from Mr. WILSON, the Chairman re-
ported progress and the house resumed.
The Dublin Carriages Bill was read a third time and
passed ; the Linen, &c., Manufactures (Ireland) Bill, and
Turnpike Acts Continuance (Ireland) Bill, were read a
second time.
THE LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND) BILL.
OA the motion to golato coramitttelTO Pala, fox the

The MOTTISTONT STAKES of 15 SOUS. each, 10 ft, with
100 added, for two-year-olds ; colts, Bst 71b ; fillies,
Bst 41b. Certain winners extra. T.Y.C. 51 subs.
Mr. H. Hill's Kingstown, by Tearaway, Bet 71b
(A. Da3) 1
Mr. Fenning's The Border Chief, Bst 121 b (including
slb extra (Marlow) 2
Mr. Powney's William the Third, Bst 71b
Mr. J. Adkins's Titormus, Bst 121 b (including' 51b ex) 4
..„,(Bcfaton). 3
tra ..........(Flat. man
............ • with 10 added
The STAND PLATE (handicap) of 50 :: g"
for the second horse ; tot all ages
New mile. , (two-year-olds ex-
Mr. Newland's Old Rowl6Y, "
5 yrs, 6st 01b ................. ;.ci .. .. ... iiii; ... (J Goater) 2
v the Merry Monarch,
Mr. Y. King's Narcissus, ag
P Est Mr. W. Day's
(Alder) 3
3 :--Albemarle, First Lord,
The following also
ran
Norval, Convict.
Georgey, Young
Nonsuch, Eccleston,

BETTING ON THE COURSE.
LIVERPOOL CUP.
4to 1 agst Heapy (9 to 2 taken).
100 to 6 agst Dr. O'Toole
GOODWOOD STAYER.
- 10 to 1 agst Heapy (taken).
10 to 1 agst Diana (12 to 1 taken).
12 to 1 agst Muscovite (taken).
100 to 6 agst Dr. O'Toole (taken).
GOODWOOD OUP.
2to 1 agst Virago (taken).
ST. LEOER.
10 to 1 agst Ivan (offered).
DERBY.
11 to 1 agst Grasoulus Esuriens.
15 to 1 agst Oulston (to 1001.)
20 to 1 agst Bonnie Morn (taken).
20 to 1 agst Flatterer (taken).
40 to 1 agst Moonbeam colt (to upwards of 3011.)
The attendance of company was much or than on
the previous day, the weather showery ab L a INA
on the whole favourable' and tIA proceedings r/.
auctsa in Tory Rtitiatotory paws!