The Sun.
London, England, 1853-07-08 00:00:00

TAMENT.

C •:)°:ng Prices I Business done
Yesterday. this day.

1001
67
22

123 i
ni

85A
54
13. q 5
881 I
vni
Pm
763 G 3

114 f

70i a

684 8
12

2 li

70 67i 9

76

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTEiLDAY.)
The Loan CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the
Dundee Chamber of Commerce, praying fo: the assimi-
lation of the mercantile laws of the two cor :•des ; 2'30
petitions from the hands of different cotton spinning C
thread manufacturing firms in Glasgow in favour of elle
bill for the abolition of arrestment of wages for debt.
RUSSIA AND TURKEY.
Lord BROUGHAM wished to put a question to the
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs ; and he begged
to premise by stating that he had not had any commu-
nication whatever, direct or indirect, with his noble
friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, or any other
member of the Government, on the subject of the ques-
tion he was about to put. He should put the question
entirely apart from them, but under a deep conviction of
its importance in the present crisis of foreign affairs. A
notice stood on the votes which had been given by a
noble marquis for to-morrow night, and which, if made,
must needs bring on a discussion of all which related to
the present posture of affairs in the east of Europe. It
was in most safe hands, whether he regarded the motives
of his noble friend in bringing it forward, or the sound
discretion under the control of which he was sure bad;
but he wished to ask his noble :"riends opposite whether
in the present posture of affairs no inconvenience, he
might even say mischief, mil-ht possibly arise, he would
almost say, might probably arise from such a discussion
at this time. If, which heaven forbid, all negotiation
was at an end, and a rupture was inevitable, then no
mischief nor inconvenience could take place from a dis-
cussion. If, which heaven grant, negotiations were in
such a state and posture that all difficulty and embar-
rassment was at an end, then again neither mischief nor
inconvenience could arise. But if neither of those ques-
tions could be answered in the affirmative, then he
would put it to his noble friend, the noble marquir, whi-
ther he would not act wisely by abstaining (rem bring-
ing the subject before the house at present. (Hear.)
The Earl of CLARENDON said it was perfectly cor-
rect that his noble and learned friend had not communi-
cated with him or any ether member of the Government
on the subject of his question before he came into the
house. In answer to his noble and learned feiend's
question, as to the very grave subject which now
agitated the public mind, and with respect to
which his noble friend, the noble ins eerie, hal given
notice for to-morrow, he could not say that there
would be neither mischief nor inconvenience in the
full discussion of that subject. (Hear, hear.) Unfor-
tunately, he could not say that negotiations bed arrived
at that point, or that the matter was so near a settle-
ment as to render a discussion upon the subject com-
paratively unimportant; but he could say that negotia-
tions were going on, and that they most earnestly hoped
that there might be a peaceful solution of the question
--(hear, hear)—and he was sure that their lordships
would be the last people in the country who would wish
to do anything to prevent so desirable a result. (Hear,
hear.) He entirely agreed with his noble and learned
friend, that the question could not be in safer hands
than that of his noble friend the noble marquis ; he was
indeed indebted to his noble friend already, for having
once or twice put off his motion of which he had given
notice, and having, with his noble friend opposite, been
content with such answers as he could give. He felt,
after the great delay which had taken place in bringing
this question to a solution, and the great interests con-
nected with it, together with the natural desire which
existed, not only in their lordships' house, but through-
out the country, to possess all the information which the
Government could safely give, he felt that ho could not
again ask his noble friend to withdraw his iv ,tion, but
he must reserve to himself, in replying to it, to say
nothing more than his public duty would allow, and more
than that he was sure their lordships would not require.
He therefore did not make any application to his noble
friend to postpone his motion, and he should be ready to
meet him to-morrow; but, as he was on his legs, he
would take the opportunity of asking his noble friend
whether he would object to postpone his motion until
Monday next. It would be convenient to have the dis-
cussion in both houses at the same time, and Lord 3.
Russell was so extremely unwell that it would be im-
possible for him to be in the House of Commons to-
morrow. He hoped, however, to bo there on Monday,
Further than that, he must rely on the judgment
and discretion of his noble fiend ; and he was sure
that he would not press on any motion which might
be prejudicial to the public interests. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUH said the noble earl
who had just spoken, and the Government, must be de-
sirous of taking the first opportunity which they could
take, consistently with the public interests, to make a
full statement to the house, and if necessary to ask the
opinion of Parliament on their conduct, or to ask for the
support of Parliament. And if that was a fair conclu-
sion, from all that had procc:ded from the noble earl,
he thought the noble marquis would exercise a sound
discretion, and only leave in view the public interests,
if he deferred not only until Monday, but generally,
without fixing at present any day, the motion of which
he had given notice for to-morrow. (Hear, hear.) He
was so strongly impressed with the importance of that
postponement, that it was his intention to have pressed
the noble marquis generally to have postponed his mo-
tion. He could not think it deirable that any state-
ment should proceed .l'eom the noble marquise however
temporary it might be, after which it would be impos-
sible for the Government to make any other than a par-
tial and maimed statement of the transactions that had
taken place, and which must be unsatisfactoly to the
country. And if they were to go beyond that, and dis-
close matters for the convenience of debate, which, in
their opinion, ought to be kept concealed, public mis-
chief, and not advantage, would be the consequence.
That which was stated in the last paragraph of the mo-
tion which the noble marquis intended to propose, it
might be proper for them at some future pariod to de-
clare ; but there was judgment not merely in payieg the
right thing, but in saying the right Wes- at the right
time, and that time appeared eeitainly, at prezent, not
to have arrived. Therefore he most earnestly suggested
to the noble marquis that he should consider whether,
in reality, it would be for the public advantage that
either to-morrow, or on Monday, a discussion should be
forced on the house upon a traneection of so critical a
character, in which it was impossible that her Majesty's
Ministers could, consistently with their sense of duty,
make a full disclosure. (Hear' hear.)
The Earl of DERBY said the noble marquis had given
his notice without consulting with any political pal Ly, or
without reference to any political support he might have
on the one side or the other, and after whet had been
stated by the noble earl the Secretary o 7 State for Fo-
reign Affairs, it was hardly necessary that he should say
that he, as well as the noble earl, was taken altogether
by surprise at finding his noble and learned feend bring-
ing the question under the notice of their lordships. He
was awaro of the intention of his noble fiend who had
just sat down to make some suggestion ; and lie merely
rose to express, with the noble earl, his hope that the
noble marquis would be conten:e mawithstanivng the
natural anxiety which he felt in common ith the coun-
try, to await the solution of tb's question, rnd God
grant that it might be a pacific ono. (Hear, here%) He
trusted that the noble marquis would be sa'tisfied for
the present to leave the responsibility ye:Jere it must
rest ; namely, on her Majesty's Government, and not
embarrass them by calling upon them to make disclo-
sures which might be disadvantageoas to the public
service, or be the means of bringing on a partial discus-
sion. He rose, however, not so much for the purpose
of expressing his concurrence in the 'view taken by his
noble fiend, as for the purpose of expressing a hope that
if this course was taken in their lordships' house it
might also be thought expedient to adopt a similar course
elsewhere ; and he stated fiat bemuse the noble earl
opposite had rested his ground of postponement on the
necessity of a similar postponement takiug piece in the
House of Commons until Monday next. Nothing could
be more inconverient than to have the mouth of one of
the housed of Parliament silent on the dberesion of a
great question of foreign policy, and that a pai:ial and
imperfect statement should be made in the other. He
could not make an appeal to the hon. gentlemen who
had given notice in the other house, but he could not
but think that whenever the question was discussed, it
was important that a debate should t ke place on the
subject in both houses of Parliament.
Earl GREY said if he i:ghtly understood the et:Never
of the noble earl to the question put to him by his
noble and learned friend he re id that it was out of his
power to deny that a discussion of this sort would not be
attended by mischief and inconvenience. Re thought,
after such a declaration, the propriety of postponing' the
discussion must be obvious, and he could not think that
any scruple which the noble earl might feel in asking
the noble marquis to postpone his motion, because he
had done so before, should be regarded by him. A sub-
ject of such deep importance must ultimately be dis-
cussed in both houses of Parliament ; and those who had
no further information then that which they could ob-
tain from the public press, Dtt'd haedly doubt that a
discussion on this subject in both houses of Parliament
must considerably increase the existing irritation, and
lessen the chance which he trusted might still exist of a
pacific termination.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE would be obliged
if his noble friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs
would repeat what he had stated, for it caught his ear
very imperfectly.
The Earl of CLARENDON said he intended to re-
peat the expression used by the noble and learned lord.
He said he could not deny that there might be inconve-
nience and mischief in bringing on a full discussion of this
subject at the present moment; but he did not think it
right to ask his noble friend to put off his motion, because
he should reset ye to himself the right of saying nothing
that he thought would lead to inconvenience. (Hear.)
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE felt that great re-
sponsibility rested upon him in this matter. He had not
personally consulted with any member of the house, much
less with any political party. After what he been said
by the noble earl, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, he
could not hesitate rs to the course which it wes his duty
to adopt, as he cei lainly (I'd not wish to increase the dif-
ficulty which existed at this critical moment. He would
not incur the risk, no natter how slight, of causing any
inconvenience or mischief. At the same time, he must
be permitted to say Olt there seemed to have been a
misapprehension of the question, which he had thought
it his duty to put. (Hear, hear.) Into the whole
question he did not intend to enter, because an
im-
portant
part of that question, when it came to be
fully discussed, would be the conduct of the Govern-
ment, which he did not think he could in any way ar-
raign, neither could he applaud or approve it until all
the papers on the subject had been laid before Parba-

was first brought into the House of Common-, it formed
part of a great system of fina.nc?, prcspc;..;:ive for the ne -t
seven year, founded altogether on the supr 3s.Con that
the happy state of peace which had lasted for the last 40
years would continue. Since that time veat char7es
had taken place, and at this moment the English fleet
had been joined to the French fleet at the mouoi of the
Dardanelles, and it was not improbable that war might
occur. They had likewise a fleet, not so large a one as
he could have wished, but a considerable fleet, assembled
at Spithead for the defence of the coast of this country,
because if an action were to take place at the mouth of
the Dardanelles, it must be obvious that a Russian fleet,
with troops on board, might be at the mouth of the
Thames, and therefore the circumst-inces wer- altogether
different f-om those under which the repeal of this tax
was proposed. Under these circumstances he thought it
expedient that Pa.liament should hold its hand at the pre-
sent time. The noble earl (Aberdeen) had said it was not
expedient at the present moment that he should enter into
our relations with Russia. If he could not see daylight
as to the vltitnate result of the negotiations in progress,
surely that was a reason for postponing the third read-
ing of this bill, which was for repealing a tax of material
assistance to the revenue, every shilling of which they
might writ. He thought the b'il ought not to be read
a tly:,xl time t;11 the Secretary of Stat o for Foreign Affvrs
could enter into a coil statement of our rfrairs wath
Russia, and he mow i that the bill be postponed for a
foi ;might,

The Earl of A. BERDEEN rrid it was Fs earnest hope
that no such resource would be required. But if unfor-
tunately he shou'd be mistaken in that view, and the
very greatest calo,r'ty that could be") 1 this country
should be imminent, he did not +hirk it was the duty of
the House of Lords to intei:ere and prevent the relief
which would be afforded to +he people by the repeal of
these duties. And if it Phor 'd so bapr mtFat +los c)un-
try should be pls3ed 'n a state of war, the Horse of
Commons world undoubtedly pioN:de the nraessary
means for carrying it on.
Tne Earl of DERBY alhgeth( differed from the
noble earl as to the relat:ve pos:tlons of +he House of
Commons and the House of Lords, The noble earl
must admit that on that (the Oppc-Alon) side of the
house they had given ample proof in the course of the
present session that they were not d'sposcd to refuse
such taxes as the House of Commors thought proper to
repeal, or to impose such taxes as the House of Com-
mons thought proper to 'lmpose. But he altogether con-
cui ad in the view of the noble esrl, who had brought
this question under their notice, that at a time when to
say the least of it, war was in a state of painful suspense,
it was their duty not to put themselves ;n collision with
the House of Commons, bat to pause, and not to take
an irreversible st3p by depriving this country of al
amount of revenue which he believed amounted to some-
thing like 400,0001. a year.
The Earl of ABERDEEN--1,200,0001.

The Earl of DERBY—Then of curse the cafe was
;,fuitely stronger. Under the most favourable c rcum-
stances the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not expect
a surplus of more than 280,0001., a ::corcung to his last
statement, and was it wise to sa-clifice 1,200,000/. of
revenue at such a juncture ; was it not prudent to keep
it in hand in order that the House of Commons might
have a fluffier opportunity of judging whether they
were now in such circumstances that they could afford
the relief. He apprehended the best course would beta
postpone the third reading of the bill for ten days, or a
fortnight, or three weeks.
Earl GRANVILLE thought the wisest course of that
house was to leave theresponsibility to Government. He
had no doubt that if means were required to carry on a
war there would be no difficulty in this rich country in
proN:ding them. He hoped the noble earl would not
press his motion to a division, and that if be d,d the:r
lordships would reject it.
The Marquis of CLANRICA RDE did not suppose
the noble earl would press his motion to a division. He
thought no inconvenience would ni Ise to the commerce
of the country from postponing this bill, for though a
degree of alarm might be caused by it, that determina-
fon would place commerce on a sounder basis ; but of
course if the Goverrment felt +hey Pad ample resor .c as
at their command, and took upon themselves the re-