The Sun.
London, England, 1853-08-06 00:00:00

~ ~ r

E SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY _ETE.STINa, .AUGtigT 6, 1853.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

and which, I think, is one better followed in the breach
than on the observance. (Cheers.)
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that he had already
made his speech on the subject, and had very few points
to discuss. He did not think noble lords near him jus-
tified in throwing off all responsibility, for there had been
many discussions on the subject, and their lordships proba-
bly approached it with better information than was usual
when a great question was to be dealt with. The bill
was not what he should have desired, but the greatest
part of it that was bad was not new, and what was new
was not bad. He had not a word to say against the
just sentence of mutilation pronounced against the
Court of Directors, nor would he delay its execution,
but it might have been rendered more merciful to the
parties, and more advantageous to the country. After
some amusing remarks upon the election of the fifteen
directors, which he thought ought to take place at the
London Tavern, he ridiculed the claim of the three whose
seniority was their title. He would have named the
new directors in the bill itself, and then the best would
have been chosen. He would have named eight for the
presidencies, four for the army, two for the political de-
partment, and two, unconnected with Government, who
should represent alcutta and Bombay. Then a cokincil
would have been formed that would have been able to
advise the minister, who would now have to get infor-
mation as best he might. As regarded the G overnor-
General, the wisdom of Parliament controverted that of
Scripture, and declared that a man could serve two
masters. He himself had not to complain of recall,
but of the undermining of the Government while he
was executing it. In illustration of this portion of
his address, he cited his own language to the
Court, and said that his own fear was from the
weakness of the Government. He considered that

HOUSE OF LORDS--(YESTERDAY.)
The Loan CHANCELLOR took his seat of the wool-
sack at five o'clock.
Lord KINNAIRD presented petitions from Liver-
pool, Manchester, and other places, in favour of the
Combination of Workmen Bill.
RUSSIA AND TURKEY.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE
Aloe that
)n Monday he would call the attention of the Govern-
nent to the treaties subsisting between Turkey and
Russia. gave n

COMBINATION OF WORKMEN BILL
Lord KINNAIRD, in moving the second read-
ing of this bill, explained that its object was
simply to explain the law of combination, which
had been variously interpreted by the legal autho-
rities. The bill had been carefully considered in
the house, and considering the great anxiety
which prevailed amongst the working classes on this
subject, and considering also the good conduct which
had characterised that class during the last few
years, he thought their lordships ought to pass the bill
as an act of justice. It did not in any way alter or
change the law, but simply placed the scope and mean-
ing of existing acts beyond all doubt, and as a matter
of expediency it was right that the bill should be passed.
Lord TRURO readily admitted that the law ought to
be made as clear and distinct as they could well make it ;
but as for the necessity of explaining the existing
law of combinations, he for one felt that there
was none whatever. This bill contained provisions
which might lead to considerable misapprehension and
abuse, and their lordships should be cautious how they
gave a sanction to them.
The LORD CHANCELLOR felt persuaded that the
bill, if carried, would do harm to the parties whom it
was intended to benefit. He entertained no doubt at
all about the meaning of the existing law, and it was
quite sufficient to accomplish all that the bill contem-
plated. The bill was intended to enable workmen
to promote combinations amongst their own body,
by peaceable persuason. What peaceable persuasion
meant he could not tell, but under the existing law
workmen were at liberty to combine together, provided
they did it peaceably. There was consequently no
necessity for this bi 11..;
Lord HARDVVICItE said this bill seemed to -hold
out a notice to the public that combinations were to be
the order of the day. Now they had strikes enough
already ; indeed they had seen the House of Commons
itself coerced by a strike ; and he thought no encourage-
ment ought to be afforded to such systems of "peace-
able persuasion."
Lord • KINNAIRD said the masters who combined
were protected by the law, and it was somewhat hard
that the same prot3ction should not be extended to the
working classes. The present was certainly an inoppor-
tunetimeforbringirgforward such a measure, but it would
be a great disappoiitment if their lordships rejected the
measure. It would be hopeless, however, for him to
struggle against the feeling of the house, and he would
not, therefore, press it to a division.
The second reading was accordingly negatived with-
out a division.

it was essential to the strength of the Government
of India that it should be conducted in the name
of the Crown. Such a change would be most salu-
tary al regarded the native princes, and would give a
better tone to the cavil and military service. The army
especially deserved to be made a royal army. These
were his objections, and he proceeded to regret that Go-
vernment, having an opportunity of doing a great thing,
had chosen to do it in a small way, and to introduce bit
by bit reform. The new system would be better than
that which had preceded it ; but it would not give satis-
faction in India, nor would it work advantageously.
Our empire in India would not be destroyed by violence,
but by the slow poison which induced gradual decay.

Lord SALISBURY referred to the—precedents of
1813 to justify the protest which his friends made against
the introduction of an India Bill at such a period of the

session.

Lord MONTEAGLE commented upon the rushing
into legislation without obtaining the opinion of the
committee appointed to consider the subject. He thought
such a course contrary to parliamentary usage, and to
the due conduct of the measure before them. Observing
that the authority of the house would be lost if it re-
garded the lateness of the session as a reason for not
dealing with measures brought before it, he proceeded
to some observations on the bill itself. He objected to
the complicated system of government which was pro-
posed, which amounted to a treble government, and he
said that where Indian knowledge was most wanted was
at the Board of Control. He expressed gratification at
the recognition of the principle in regard to the admis-
sion of natives to the service, but he did not think that
enough had been done, though abundance of fine words
had been used on the subject towards those whose just
ambition so much had been done to excite. At consi-
derable length he entered into strictures upon various
features of the system of administration pursued in re-
gard to India.
The Duke of ARGYLL said that the Government
had pursued the course which they deemed right,
although the surface sense of the country had been in
favour of delay, and a variety of heterogeneous opposi-
tion was certain to be offered to legislation. In defend-
ing Sir Charles Wood from the charge of general eulogy
of the East India Company, he adverted to the enormous
exaggerations which had been indulged in by the oppo-
nents of the bill, statements which it had been necessary
to meet by showing that the case had been by no means
what it had been represented to be. In reply to Lord
Ellenborough, his grace said that he was not ashamed of
the title of a bit-by-bit reformer. Our empire had been
acquired bit by bit, and it would have been the height
of rashness to have swept the old system away, and to
have sought to erect a new constitution. He quite un-
derstood that the attack was directed against the system
of double government, but all speakers had admitted that
a Minister must act with the advice of a Council. To
go further meant that a Minister must be individually
responsible for Indian government, and to this extent it
had not been dared to venture. A time might come
when the home Government should take to itself the
sole direction of Indian affairs, but he could not think
that this was the time for such a change. In regard to
the proposed government in the name of the Crown, he
said that the natives would expect that, with such a
change, should come such changes in condition and
taxation as they had been accustomed to witness when
an alteration in the form of a native government took
place ; and he contended that we were in no position
to guarantee such changes to the people of India.
It had been held out in 1833, that in proportion as
the commercial character was taken from the com-
pany they would devote themselves more to the
government of India, and that a different class
would be introduced into the direction ; and these
anticipations had been to a considerable extent realised.
He had been disappointed with the speech of Lord El-
lenborough, a great portion of which had been directed
against the East India Company, a course which he
could not under the circumstances think politic. Defend-
ing the course the bill proposed in regard to the nomina-
tion of directors, as calculated to raise the character of
the board, he professed his total inability to understand
the nature of the slow poison which Lord Ellenborough
intimated was to be diffused throughout India by the
course the Government was taking ; or, if his lordship
entertained that belief, how he could assent to the second
reading of the bill.
Lord ASHBURTON contended that the existence of
the Court of Directors was necessary to secure the rights
and liberties of the people of India, and that that was
called a single government would either degenerate into
an absolute colonial government, with the people com-
mitted to its charge in the position of animals, or would
become a double government, divested of the means of
effecting the advantageous results which it was designed
to produce. He also thought there might be some feel-
ing bespoken in favour of that body of merchant ventu-
rers who had secured so much for us, organised such a
service, sown the seeds of liberty in India, and now
handed over an empire in such perfect order.
The Bishop of OXFORD said that this was not only
a political subject, but one which had deep moral and
religious bearings. As the only member of the episcopal
bench who had been placed on the Indian Committee, he
would venture to mention one or two points in which he
thought the bill ought to be varied before it became law.
India had been placed in our hand by Providence for a
great purpose, and if we swerved from that the command
might be taken from us. He did not mean to contend
that it was the duty of a Government to interfere directly
with the religion of those entrusted, to us, but he could
not admit that our duty was, as had been said, neu-
trality. We were bound to put before the people
Christianity at avery advantage. If this had been in-
tended as a final measure, lie should have complained
of the absence of any increased provision for keeping up
Christianity among our own servants. There was need
of additional chaplains and of a new see in India. His
lordship also urged that it was proposed, while giving
up patronage, to narrow the examinations to Halley-
bnry, and to create there one of those close colleges
which had been shown, in our universities, to work so
ill. He showed that the position in which the Hailey-
bury student would find himself, with a certain income
for the future, would tend to destroy restraint, and to
teach the youths to forestall that income, while irregu-
larity could only be punished by the ruinous penalty of
expulsion. In order, therefore, to secure the best kind
of servants for India, he would admit other candidates
to the Haileybury examination, in addition to the mem-
bers of the college, on condition of such candidates show-
ing that they had been for a certain time, say two
years, trained elsewhere. He remarked upon the dis-
advantage of throwing the universities out of this coin-
petition for the Indian service. It would be a great
boon to the universities to induce the young men there
to take an interest in India, the civil service of which
was now a sealed book to them ; nor could anything be
more useful to India, or tend to give a higher tone to
the service. He would beg the Government to re-
consider this part of the subject, rather than himself
give notice of an amendment, and he ended with an elo-
quent reference to the triumph of peacefully imparting
to India the patent gift God had bestowed on us,
namely, a true faith in His word, and a true belief in
the revelation of His Son.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE considered that Ministers
had been justified in introducing their measure, pre-
suming that they were satisfied as to its character ; but
he could not help agreeing with Lord Ellenborougli
as
to many of the objections he had urged to the bill.
Giving credit to the Board of Directors for what it
had done, he thought that it might be made much
more effective, and that it would not, • under the
proposed arrangement, add vigour to the councils of
Government. To several other portions of the bill his
lordship was understood to say that he did not see any
particular grounds of objection ; but he cordially agreed
with what had fallen from the Bishop of Oxford. He
did not think that this plan would last many years, but
it would become the increasing dirty of the Minister for
India to promote the reforms too long demanded for
that country.
Earl GRANVILLE replied. He defended the nomi-
nation of directors, and said that with regard to the
constituency it would be difficult to suggest any plan
which would work more advantageously than the pre-
sent. He concurred with the right reverend prelate
(the Bishop of Oxford) as to the necessity for additional
facilities for establishing spiritual supervision in India
but it was impossible for him to give any further pledge
upon such such a subject than had been already given
by his
of Control. right honourable
Withnourable regardfrien t
friend theo
what Presidenthad
of the
Board
fallenfrom
n
n
theth e nobleblw o lorduld
strengthenwho spoke ltanset,Ehhes
twlonudlidiat sayCofonpmlryopvaiclyed ;
the
government
if they should Lot be able to go on,
means of establishing a more simple form o
He entirely denied, therefore, that the bill was merely a
breaandkintheentsecßoinlld
proviseeiobTnilahllaNnvase Thames
measure.Ee then
was read the second
TThh
time.
T
he e Belfast Municipal Boundaries Bill passed through
committeeßrecon.
Collegiate Church Bill was reported with
amendments.
The.
of Seamen Bill was read the third time
and passed.
The Crime and Outrage Bill was read a second time,
and their lordships adjourned at a
quarter to twelve.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.
Earl GRAN VILLE moved the second reading of the
Government of Lelia Bill. After observing that the
numerous discussi•ns which had taken place on the sub-
ject in their lordslips' house during the present session
had made his healers perfectly well acquainted with the
character of the measure, he said that he would only
enter into such a description of the bill, and such refe-
rences to the obections which had been raised against
it, as he deemec, respectful to the house. He prefaced
a general sketca of the peculiar circumstances with
which the East India Company had had to deal in the
government of India, by some illustrations of the sys-
tem to which the natives had been submitted under their
old rulers, and le introduced, as a specimen of the mode
in which Mahonmedan justice carried out its sentences,
a narrative of tie dragging a wretched culprit, fastened
at the foot of as elephant, through the streets of a city
until he was torn to pieces. Proceeding to indicate,
very briefly, what had been done for India, he showed
that the best principles of free trade had been deprived
of exercise in that country, as manufactures had been
ruined by legislation, and competition had been let in
against them. He then adverted to the leading features
of the measure, vindicating each as he dismissed it, and
he stated that she bill had been prepared with the utmost
care, and with a deep sense of the responsibility attach-
ing to such legislation. In the course of his concluding
observations he expressed a conviction that the great re-
sources of India were in course of development, inci-
dentally remarking that the Great Exhibition of 1851
had thrown more light upon the capabilities of India
than upon those of any other country.
Lord MALMESBURY said that had Lord Derby
been present he would have abstained, as he should him-
self do, from either praise or blame of this measure,
which it was impossible at that period of the session to
consider as the subject deserved. It was humiliating to
the house to have such a measure thrust upon it at the
end of the session. He proceeded to complain that,
after a session of eight months, and within a fortnight of
its close, there should be 42 bills before their lordships,
and others, which would increase the number to 72,
coming up from the Commons. The latter house
would not bear such treatment, and had actually thrown
out the Colonial Bishops Bill on no other ground than
the lateness of the time at which it had been presented.
The fault was not that of their lordships, but of the
Government, which, moreover, possessed unusual ad-
vantages, especially in having the experience of such a
man as Lord J. Russell, as an amateur member of the
Ministry, to conduct the business in the Commons.
He then assailed Sir Chas. Wood for his speech to his
constituents, which had produced an effect in every
Court of Europe, and which had done much towards the
bringing about subsequent events, and he demanded what
Sir C. Wood had been doing for the months between his
accession to office and the introduction of this measure.
He saw no excuse for the slothfulness and delay which
had taken place, and said that the system would come
to a regular demand on their lordships to accede to
any measure which the Commons might pass. Lord
Derby and his friends washed their hands of the
consequences of this measure, for which they were
certainly irresponsible, and they left the whole of
such consequences on the shoulders of the Ministry.
The Earl of ABERDEEN—I feel called upon to
make a few observations on the course taken by the
noble lord. He has commented upon the manner in
which this bill has been brought before the house, and
has taken a course which, I confess, is to me really in-
explicable. (Hear.) He complains of the manner in
which the house has been treated by the course we have
taken. Does he think it a constitutional course ? does
he think it respectful to this house to get up and say
that he will give no opinion as to whether he approves
or disapproves of this bill ? (Hear, hear.) Is that a
course win& a man in the condition of the noble earl
might be expected to talc.; before your lordships' house ?
(Hear, hear.) It may 'be very convenient to do so
—(cheers)—that I don't deny ; but when the noble lord
declines to give au opinion upon such a subject he must
permit me to think that it is not quite respectful to the
house, and I must say not such a course as I ever before
knew followed by your lordships. (Hear.) Now, my lords,
as to the period of the session at which this bill comes
before you, I must confess that, long as I have been a
member of this house—and I have been a member longer
than any of your lordships now present—this is a com-
plaint which I have never ceased to hear at the close of
every session. I admit that, on many occasions, that com-
plaint has been made with great truth and justice ; but,
on this occasion, I must reject the accusation of the noble
lord in respect to this case. He says, that the right
hon. gentleman who has proposed this measure to the
other house of Parliament has taken more time to pre-
pare it than he ought to have taken. The noble lord
wished the right hon. gentleman to have proceeded with
more haste, and said he had been too long in the process
of incubation. (A laugh.) Now, my lords, the noble
earl will recollect that the right hon. gentleman, with
reference to this subject, was nearly, although not alto-
gether, in a similar position to his predecessor in office.
But he had to prepare a measure perfectly new, and one
which I think could hardly have been prepared in less
time than was occupied in the preparation of it. The
noble earl will recollect, too, that in addition to the time
necessary for the preparation of a measure of this vast
importance and complicated nature, there were other
most important matters before the House of Commons
which could not possibly be delayed, and which, to a
certain degree, affected the period of the production of
this measure. He will recollect the financial measures
which were indispensable to be considered, and which
were required indispensably to precede the consideration
of this measure. (Hear, hear.) My lords, when the
noble earl says that he is obliged to condemn the slothful
manner in which business has been conducted during
this session, I believe the public business never has been
more forward than it has been during this session.
(Hear, hear.) It is not for me, certhtainly, to describe
the qualities, the knowledge, and e activity of my
noble friend who has the management of the business in
the House of Commons, and who the noble earl really
seems to think has been remiss and slothful in that
house. I believe your lordships will admit that, al-
though this bill may have come up to this house at
a late period of the session, it leas not been for want
of time for consideration whilein the House of Com-
mons, and that the noble earl has no excuse or valid
reason for not condescending to pronounce an opinion
upon it as to whether he approves of the measure or not.
The noble earl asserted all along that there is not time
to discuss this bill ; but still, when he comes to explain
what he meant by discussion, it seems to be that he has
not had time to summon together persons to vote.
(Hear.) Now, noble lords who were anxious to discuss
the bill would find means to be present.oblle admitto that
it would not be so convenient or
oso r
ap ra ct.a n
t the sum-
mon
persons blindly to voteut thisg a
ii s not a proceased-
at this period of the session
ing which can affect the
meritsb
of the bill. (Hear.) My
lords, my noble friendt near me has gone so fully into
the objects and charac r of the bill that it is quite un-
necessary for me again teotrawvielll, over the same ground.
I have no doubt, in-
I am anxious to hear what
struct and enlighten
your lordships, the opinion and the
views taken by otherouboloble lords in this house, and espe-
friend opposite (Lord Ellen-
cially those of my noble
so much attention to the subject,
borough) who has paid
and to whom your lordships always listen with the
greatest attention and respect. (Hear, hear.) I trust
that he, at least, will give as his opinion on all the points
connected with the bill, and will not follow the example
which has been set by the noble earl (of Malmeabury),

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY. )
PILOTAGE BILL.
The house then went into committee upon this bill.
On clause.lo,
Mr. HORSFALL moved, after the words " mate "
in lines 32, 35, and 39, to insert " of any coasting ship
or vessel." He objected to the principle of centralisa-
tionp established by the clause, and said the effect of the
amendment would be to limit the granting of licenses
by the Board of Trade exempting masters and mates
from taking pilots to coasting vessels and steamers.
The banks and sands of the Mersey and other; ports
were constantly shifting, and it was impossible that a
master or mate who had been absent on a voyage for
several months could properly or safely discharge the
duties of a pilot. The local authorities at Liverpool
were entirely opposed to the clause.
Mr. CARDWELL said the clause was intended to
have a general and a local effect. Some thought it went
too far, others that it did not go far enough, and be-
tween the two he thought it would be better to adopt it
as it now stood. !
Captain SCOBELL opposed the clause, and instanced '
the danger of giving indiscriminately to masters and
mates a license to pilot their own vessels.
•
Mr. CAIRNS supported the clause.
Mr. LIDVELL considered that the tendenc-y of the
clause would be to impair the pilot service of the country.
Mr. GEORGE supported the clause, believing that
the charges under the existing piloting system were
most exorbitant.
Mr. HENLEY should not oppose the clause, but
thought it invested a rather dangerous power in the
Board of Trade.
The amendment was then withdrawn.
Captain SCOBELL moved to add at the end of the
clause, "Provided always that such master or mate so
certified shall not be a foreigner.
Mr. CARD WELL opposed the amendment.
The amendment was withdrawn, and the clause was
agreed to.
The remaining and several new clauses were agreed
to, the house resumed, and the bill Was ordered to be
reported this evening, in order that it might be road a
third time on Monday.
CUSTOMS ACTS CONSOLIDATION BILL.
This bill went through committee, and was ordered to
be reported this evening.
BETTING-HOUSES BILL.
--"Tte report upon the amendments to this bill was con-
sidered and agreed to, and the bill was ordered to be
read a third time on Monday.
The hcuse adjourned at 4 o'clock.
The house resumed at 6 o'clock.
AN ATTEMPTED "COUNT."
When the Speaker took the chair at 6 o'clock, the num-
ber of members present was very small, but greatly to the
surprise of every one.
Mr. W. F. HUME moved that the house be counted.
An HoN. MEMBER, on the Ministerial side, instantly
started from his seat, and hurried swiftly from the house.
In a few seconds the alarm had evidently been given in all
the precincts of the Palace of Westminster; and. before
the sandglass showed that the two minutes' grace had ex-
pired, a long troop of hon. gentlemen, headed by Mr.
Bright, appeared at the door, so that when the Speaker at
last began to count, there were probably not less than a
hundred members present. The defeat of this attempt to
terminate the evening's sitting was greeted with loud cheers.
RETURNS ORDERED.
On the motion of Sir R. INGLis—" Copy or extracts of
any dispatch or communication from any authority under
her Majesty, in reference to the present state of the intes-
tine war in China."
On the motion of Mr. GREENE—" Copy of the report of
Mr. Goldsworthy Gurney to the Commissioners of Works,
respecting the lighting of the House of Commons."
On the motion of Sir J. SHELLEY, a return showing, in
columns, the amount of rates made and levied by the Com-
missioners of Sewers on the several parishes within each
district, for each year from the year 1843 to the year 1817,
both inclusive. Similar return from the year 1848 to the
year 1852, both inclusive, while the said district was under
the control of the Metropolitan Commission of Sewers ;
such returns to specify under distinct heads, the amounts
received in each year in respect of such rate from each
parish in the said district. And, return showing the length,
size, and cost of new works executed in each of the said
parishes from the year 1843 to the year 1852, both inclu-
sive; specifying the amount so expended in each and every
of such years; and of the balance of moneys paid over by
the late Commissioners of Sewers to the Metropolitan
Commission of Sewers, showing when, where, and how
expended ; each district to be given separately.
On the motion of Mr. BUTLER—Return of the number
of prisoners committed or held to bail for trial at the
Middlesex Sessions, between the Ist day of January, 1851,
and the 30th day of Decomber, 1852 ; the number of ap-
peals entered for hearing during the like period ; and the
number of days on which the court sat for the dispatch of
business.
On the motion of Mr. HORSFALL—a return of the num-
ber of cattle imported from Ireland in the years 1851 and
1852

consequence of the representations made to them by the
. Chancellor of the Exchequer, that they were accepting an
equivalent, It was not unreasonable to say that it was
their duty, before accepting those new stocks, to calculate,
and see whether they would by accepting them in reality
obtain an equivalent for the stock which they relinquished;
but that they ought not on mere representation to have
accepted in lien of 1001. what was now only worth 931., 911.,
or 901. If, however, the result cf the operation had been as
he had described it, he considered the present proposal was
not one which the house ought to be called upon to sanc-
tion ; for how did the matter really stand? It was pro-
posed to pay off 10,000,0001. South Sea Stock and other
stocks, and to convert the holders of Three per Cent. Stock
(unless it was agreed to convert 90,000,0001. into Three
per Cent. Reduced Consols) into any of those three stocks.
That act was passed, and the proposal was made, and the
result appeared to be that instead of the 100,000,0001. of
which the act authorised the conversion—and he could not
but think that the Government had anticipated the con-
version—the whole amount converted was only 2,000,0001.,
or 3,000,000/. In his opinion, if the bill merely enabled
the Government to propose this to holders of South Sea
Stock, who were not supposed to have had any opportunity
of converting their property into any of these new stocks,
provedwheouobjected
s ut
inefficacious,oc ci
et
s,
sof
un l
andtihne
ht hedidgroundpi.enstoehtnattth
sit
tnhaket
et fhooarftmttehhr
the proposal
pmoney
rbilloopnho
esa;;.
market.oneo f
these N o
tzne alternatives.would fora m moment ehn
its thinkopinion, o f
it acceptingwas any
hold-
ingto
acceptoiit tao
proposalt h the
which an n
would
entail inducement,
uponn o t a v
themel l-f o uan ded,
seri-
ous loss, and some persons might be induced to accept those
proposals on account of the representations of the Govern-
ment. When hon. members who sat on the same side of
the house as himself had ventured to complain of the want
of success of the measure which had already passed, it had
been answered that it owed its want of success to public
events which had taken place ; to the state of the weather,
and other circumstances which could not have been antici-
pated ; but he begged leave to call the attention of the
house to the fact, that with regard to the expediency or
justice of the conversion of property into any one of these
new stocks, the fall in the funds had no effect upon the
question whatever. He could not approve any act of hold-
ing out to the public an idea that by accepting any one of
those new stocks they were accepting a fair equivalent,
when he did not believe that such was actually the case.
The proposal held out to the public, he would not
say by false expectations, certainly might induce the
public to believe that this stock was worth 5 or 6 per cent.
more than it really was. The effect of the previous mea-
sure had been to call into existence three new stocks of
small amount, which would disturb the money market for
the next 40 years. The only remedy 001 be saw for the
evil was to add to the amount of the dock, and make it a
real equivalent. The object which the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had had in view was one of great magnitude,
and if it could have been carried out would have been highly
advantageous ; butthat right hon. gentleman had attempted
a task that be did not think could be performed by mortal
man. The right hon. gentleman had, on more than one
occasion, ministers,appealedtotoafolmeaesrarmeeapsruorpeossoefdfiinnanicBe44,
and particularly but h
begged to point out to the house that the two cases were
not analogous. In former cases the value of the new stock
proposed to be created was accurately known, while in the
present instance that was not the case. He could only say
that the only way to remedy the evil which had been done
was to make the new stock a real equivalent. He felt
himself bound, entertaining the feelings he did, to take the
sense of the house on the subject. He thought it would be
far better for the right hon. gentleman frankly to acknow-
ledge that the scheme he had framed had been based on a
misapprehension, and to seek the aid of the house, which
he was sure would be readily afforded, to enable him to
charge the sum which under the arrangements already
made would have to be paid upon the consolidated fund,
and thus avoid embarrassing the stock market with all
these petty stocks.
The CHANCE LaLat
ntOed,Rloe
foa
rfnte
dl
opinion,i the
gentleman's EXthC ant EwQa sU,niEoe EXCHEQUER
es
asaasuoi
anything
nt
hwthat
eveninore sat-heraentilniee
rheo
nu;
the house should not go into committee on the question.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY objected to the bill.
Mr. J. B. SMITH considered that the South Sea Com-
pany having assented to the right hon. gentleman's first
proposition to accept a money payment, it was a very bad
precedent in the Government to depart from that first pro-
position and to proceed to the second. The first proposi-
tion, having been deliberately made and deliberately ac-
cepted, should have been adhered to.
Mr. WILKINSON supported the bill, simply on the
ground that the Chancellor of the Exchequer must be en-
abled to meet the engagements he had been authorised to
contract.
The house then went into committee on the bill.
The first clause, which provides that the South Sea Com-
pany may commute, according to the provisions of the
16th Vic., c. 23, or for 31. ss. per cent. annuities, 1844,
annuity on their stock . belonging to proprietors disabled
from voting in general courts, was agreed to, after SQIII6
brief explanations by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
On the second clause, which enacts that the South Sea
Company, if authorised to undertake private trusts, may
commute for the purpose of forming a guarantee fund,
Mr. J. B. Smith, Sir F. Kelly, Mr. Spooner, and Mr.
Malins stated sundry objections, which wore answered by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, after which the clause
was agreed to without a division.
Upon clause 3, which provides that the Treasury shall
appoint times within which the assent of the company to
commute shall be signified, and shall fix the terms of the
commutation into 31. ss. per Cent. Annuities,
Mr. J. B. SMITH said he thought the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would place himself in a very disadvantageous
position if this clause were passed ; for if, on the 25th of
December, the Treasury offered a commutation, and the
parties had 11 days to consider whether they should ac-
cept it, operations might take place in the money nsr set
which would embarrass the right hon. gentleman in his
arrangements.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was quite
ready to admit that he was placed in a disadvantageous
position with regard to some of his arrangements, but he
regretted that the public were also subjected to the same
disadvantage. He thought, however, that detailed discus.
sion upon matters of this kind, the only object which
seemed to be to exaggerate the difficulties and disadvantages
which might arise, were likely to be attended with very
mischievous consequences. It was quite impossible, in the
present state of uncertainty, that he could enter into any
details as to the mode of proceeding it might be most pru-
dent to adopt in making arrangements under this measure.
Mr. HENLEY thought this bill was very obscurely drawn,
and regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not
condescended to inform the committee what was the amount
of money to which the clause now under consideration
would apply. In his opinion the measure proposed to the
house would tend very greatly to destroy the public credit.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER complained.
that the right hon. gentleman, who had just sat down
stated that he had not condescended to inform the house
of the amount proposed to be commuted. He had already
informed the house that the amount would probably ex-
ceed 2,000,0001.
Sir F. KELLY thought that the right hon. gentleman
would be placed in a very difficult position by the passing
of this measure. If on the Ist of November he should be
called upon to fix the price, and the Three-and-a-Quarter
per Cents. were at par, the Government must in any case
be losers. Suppose the right hon. gentleman fixed the
price at 991.; then, if the stock rose, persons would accept
the new stock, and if it fell they would accept the 100/.,
so that in either case there would be a loss of the public
money. •
Mr. SPOONER protested against the proposal, and was
of opinion that any difficulty which existed the Chancellor
of the Exchequer had brought upon himself.
The clause was then agreed, as were all the remainding
clauses.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER 'brought up
a new clause, to provide for the payment of interest on
Exchequer-bonds beyond the time up to which interest
was guaranteed. The Controller of the Exchequer had en-
tertained some doubt as to whether the existing law made
any such provision ; and, although that doubt was not
shared by the law officers of the Crown, still it had been
thought safer to introduce the present clause.
The clause was agreed to and added to the bill; and, the
house having resumed the bill was reported.
SUPPLY.
On the motion for going into Committee of Supply.
Mr. OLIVEIRA stated that ho felt unwilling, at that
late period of the session, to bring forward the motion
which stood on the paper in his name, to call the attention
of the house to the state of the metropolitan bridges, and,
if any member of the Government would promise him a
committee of inquiry into the subject early next session,
he would not press his motion.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH saw no objection to the ap-
pointment of a committee.
The motion was then withdrawn.
Mr. MAGUIRE was anxious to call the attention of the
Government to the state of the postal arrangements in the
neighbourhood of Dungarvan. Any application to the
tlePahffonees
(let
htmwo
anyuaessrteee. Postmaster-General
positively
apeholleys
tkwasknew
worse
wqu wi taaets
to useless,
bring an dt
hteh e only
matter way
beforeto
arrangementsthepresienn.thdessoyuth of. Ire-
land
were 20 years ago, and the time taken in the than
theof
letters was actually greater. The Government would do
great benefit to the country by issuing orders for an im-
provement on the present system, and it would, he was
convinced, not be unprofitable to the revenue of the
country.
Mr. WILSON said that if the hon. gentleman or his
constituents would make a representation of their grie-
vances to the Treasury, he would undertake that every
inquiry should be made into it.
WAR IN CHINA.
Mr. HORSFALL said that on the 13th of last month a
communication was made to the Earl of Clarendon, the
Secretary for Foreign Affairs, expressing the apprehension
of the members of the East India and China Association at
Liverpool that sufficient protection was not afforded to the
British residents in China in the present peculiar circum-
stances of that country, Lord Clarendon stated, in reply,
that a copy of that communication had been forwardt?
the Lord Commissioners of the Admiralty. As the latest_..
news from China fully bore out the justice of
stuhffie
caiPePly
hensions of the association with regard to the ino,ing been
of the British force in the Chinese waters—it h
found necessary, it appeared, to apply to the
s 9tis would inform
Consul and to the French Consul for Pr 9et ----nit:;lltaoutl°d
be glad if the First Lord of the Admirenv.S.'dditionsi force
him whether the Government had son
it for it ?
were of opinion that there was se boa. gentleman had
to that quarter, or whether they co:oteetem:sp
Sir J. GRAHAM was sorryn..o.
of putting the ques-
tion doing so, or
given him no notice of his into Dlmosthim tshataitsftachetearey-
ewt ioiouti ahn ir
es bflueatrsethneceh received a had no girl
ut.hvilo in telling
sser e
insurgents
nwtshiacth
Nhaandkinpasansedd
ai ; and he had no
1, 'that, whatever might be the internal
reason to apprfocil
between Sir G. Bonhaurnswa
d he believed it was very serious—
hood of Shanghai
the town and netiogbdtlhoe
achnange in the relations of that country
communications
tubneicai
obstruction to - commerce, whatever
might be the result of the struggle. (Hear, hear.) With
reference to the British force in the Chinese seas
serious—
there hi disorder
d.
eleivgrobui
enl
rdoe, bi :el anya—
any
be had the pleasure of stating that, anticipating the
necessity of a larger force in that quarter, in present
' circumstances he had sent out orders to Admiral
Fellow to proceed to the Chinese seas. Admiral Pellew
had anticipated that order, and had taken with him from
the Indian to the Chinese station an additional steamer
of war, and he (Sir J. Graham) believed that the force was
now quite adequate to the necessities of the case. (Heal,)
The house then went into committee of supply. , -
The following votes were agreed to without objection,
viz.:-
4,0001. for the extension and completion of the fire
mains at Windsor Castle ; 20,0001. for the completion of
the south wing •of Buckingham Palace ; and 32,6411. for -
the formation of a park at Battersea.
On the vote of 5,5001. for the completion of a bridge
over the Thames at Chelsea.
Mr. HENLEY repeated the pretest he had made on
_o a
former occasion against the imposition of a toll on the
bridge.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said, that the toll would only

MECHANICS' INSTITUTES (IRELAND),
Mr. F. SCULLY begged to ask the Chief Secretary for
Ireland if it be the fact that the provincial mechanics'
institutes in Ireland had been refused the grant made to
them by Parliament for their use for provincial lecturers,
unless they would take the lecturers named by the Royal
Dublin Society, though they were aware the professors
hitherto named by the mechanics' institutes had been
found highly popular and useful.
Sir J. YOUNG said the grant (5001.) had been made,
not to the provincial mechanics' institutes, but to the
Dublin Society for the purpose of enabling its own lec-
.turers to give lectures in the provinces, and of thus in-
creasing their salaries to an adequate amount. It would
be impossible to suppose that the gentlemen appointed by
the Dublin Society were not perfectly efficient.
NEW ZEALAND.
Mr. ADDERLEY begged to ask the Under Secretary of
State for the Colonies whether, by any letters patent, or
by instructions of any kind, her Majesty has delegated to
the Governor of New Zealand such power respecting the
regulation of the sale and disposal of waste lands as could
be taken to have legally authorised his late proclamation
of the 9th day of March, 1853, whereby the scale of land
prices guaranteed by the 14th and 15th Vict., c. 86, is set
aside, and the powers given by the 15th and 16th Vict.,
c. 72, to the new legislature were anticipated by the Go-
vernor alone, and an unlimited extent of territory was set
up to public auction at ss. per acre.
Mr. PEEL said that no proclamation of Sir G. Grey-on
the subject had yet reached the Colonial-office. It appeared
that in the constitutional act of last year a provision had
been introduced conferring on the new General Assembly of
New Zealand the power of regulating the sale of land ;
but until the General Assembly should make provisions
for that purpose the crown, or the governor as authorised
by the crown was to regulate the matter. The govern-
ment in this country had accordingly sent out to Sir G.
Grey instructions to issue such regulations as might be re-
quired. He (Mr. Peel) presumed, therefore, that the pro-
clamation had been issued in consequence of those instruc-

THE HOLYHEAD MAILS.
Mr. V A.NCE wished to call the attention of the Secre-
tary of the Treasury to the irregular arrival of the mail
trains at Holyhead ; and to ask if any measures were being
taken by the Post-office authorities to ensure punctuality
in the transmission of the Irish mails to their destination.
Mr. WILSON said that steps had been taken to ensure
uniformity in the arrival of the night mail, but that the
day mail was not under the control of the postmaster.
The contract with the railway company was merely to con-
vey certain mail-bags.
Mr. F. SCULLY appealed to the President of the Board
of Trade to take some steps for making the mail more
regular.
Mr. CARDWELL said the law gave him no power to
do so. No complaints had over been made to him on the

subject.
COLONIAL AND FOREIGN POSTAGE

Mr. GIBSON wished to ask whether, with reference to
the proposal made to the colonies for future postal arrange-
ments, any reply had been received from any of the colo-
nies, and whether those colonies which had replied had as-
sented to the terms suggested by her Majesty's Govern-
ment? He also wished to ask whether, on further consi-
deration, the Chancellor of the Exchequer thought there
would be any obstacle to the appointment of a committee
to inquire into the general question of foreign and colonial
postage in the early part of next session ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied,
that the time which had elapsed since the Government had
sent out the proposal was too short to admit of their re-
ceiving replies from the most important colonies. The re-
plies, in fact, were only beginning to come in. What
replies had been received already wore entirely favourable
to the plan. The basis of that proposal was, that there
should bo a postage between Groat Britain and the colonies
which was low, which was uniform, and which should in-
elude
not only the ocean charge, but the charge from door
to door, from the place from which the letter was sent to
the place to which it was addressed. He had never ex-
pressed any disinclination to Parliamentary inquiry into
the subject on principle ; but he had an apprehension,
which ho thought well-founded, that if the house institu-
ted an inquiry of the kind this session, while the proposal
was on its way to the colonies, such inquiry would mate-
rially interfere with the success of the proposal, and pre-
vent the Government from laying the groundwork e
favourable further proceedings. It seemed unadvisable to
give a pledge on the subject at present; but the subject
of
ocean postage was a fit one for Parliamentary inquiry,
he should be glad to see that inquiry institut ed nextseskaonnd.
CANADA.
Mr. BRIGHT, referring to a question which he had put
a few nights ago with reference to an address from the
Legislature of Canada, suggesting that the Legislative
Council should no longer be nominee, but elective, wished
to know whether that address had been received by her
Majesty's Government, and, if so, whether the noble lord
the member for London: had any objection to lay it on the
g
table ? Though nothing could this year, yet! the
information could be considered between this and the next
session.
Lord J. RUSSELL could only say that information had
just been received, which the Secretary of State had not
yet had time to examine, but which he should hope would
in a few days be laid on the table.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice, that on Monday he
should move that on Wednesdays Go' vernment orders of
the day should take precedence till three o'clock.

SOUTH _ AND OTHER ANNUITIES BILL.
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair on
the house going into committee on this bill.
Sir F. KELLY called on the Government to admit or
refute a statement he had made on a former cccasion, that
the three new stocks were of the saleable value of 931.,
911., and 901. respectively, and no more. The result f
this public transaction was, that the holders of those three
stocks were losers on the conversion to which they were
subjected of about 7,9, and 10 per cent. of their capital,
to say nothing of the loss of interest. The result of the
operation, so far as it had gone, had been, that at this
moment those persons who had accepted the new stock
were losers of a sum amounting to nearly 200,0001. He
ventured to make this statement, for he did it on what he
believed to be the very highest authority—the authority
of ono person connected closely with tho money-market.
If such were the result, ho would come to the question
whether that house ought to enable the Government to
repeat to others proposals similar to those which had en-
tailed a serious loss upon those persons who had accepted
them. It might be said that those unfortunate persons
were compelled to accept the proposal, and that they had
the option of being paid 1001. in money, or accepting an
equivalent amount in these new stocks. He was quite
willing to admit that they had no very great claim to the
consideration of the house, and that it was a matter little
affecting that house that those persons had believed, in