The Sun.
London, England, 1838-08-07 00:00:00

IRISH TITHE BILL

Lord MELBOURNE postponed the third reading of tl.e
Ir:slt Tithe Bill till to-morrow.

The Marquis of DOWNS, Ei IR E presented a petition from
Down against tithes.
On tie motion of the Marquis of f, ANSDOWNE, the
Constables on Public Works Bill was read a second time, and
ordered to be committed tomorrow.

The Juvenile Onnders Bill uas read a third ti me and
passed. _ _

The Earl of LICHFIELD moved the second reading
of the Mails on Railways Bill. In consequence of the op-
position of certain parties the Bill had been modified, but
he was of opinion that the Bill, as originally framed, was
better. However, if it might be necessary to introduce
morn stringent provisions, that could be dune by aucther
Bill next Session.
The Bill was then read a second time and ordered to be
committed on Thursday.
On the motion of the same Noble Earl the Mediterranean
Postage Bill was read ti second time.
PRISONS BILL.

The LORD CHANCELLOR moved that the House
should resolve itself into a Committee on this Bill. The ob-
ject of the 1.3111 was to put the prisons in boroughs on the
same footing as county prisons. To this he anticipated no
objection. The only thing that was objected to was the ex
pense which it would create. He did not deny that the regu-
lations under the Bill would. create expense ; but, then, he
would ask whether it was not necessary that those regulatio.s
should be made ?

The Marquis of SALISBURY said that he must complain
of the late period of the Session at which the Bill had beer,
broutzht up. The Noble and Learned Lord said there was
no objection to that part of the Bill which related to the bo-
roughs. He (the Marquis of Salisbury) had that evening
presented a petition from Liverpool, pre) ing that the peti-
tioners might be heard at the bar against the Bill. He
thought as the Bill would throw a heavy charge upon the
rate-payers that the subject ought to undergo investigation be-
fore a Committee up stairs. He also objected to the unlimited
powers of taxation which the B.il gave the Secretary of
State for the Hone Department, and to the provision autho•
rising the Justices in certain cases to appoint as chaplains
clergy not of the Established Church. He thought too that
the experiment which the Bill was to make had better be tried
in one of the public prisons. He therefore should move that
the Bill h e, mmit ed this. day three months.
Lord LYNDHURST said that he ilemeht their Lordships
could not know, without a very careful consideration, what the
effect of the Bill rally w Is. The effect of the Bhl was to en-
able the Secretary of State to establish separate confinement,
solitary confinement, in every gaol in the kingdom. The Bill
also gave the S,cr, ta, y of State a power of taxation which he
thought their Lordships would hesitate to confer, on the slight
examination that they had been able to give the subject this
Session. Ha was satisfied their Lordships would not pass the
Bill as it at present stood. According to the existing law,
the magistrates at Quarter Sessions were empowered to make
rules and regulations for the government of the prisons, which
must at stated intervals, be submitted to the Secretary of
State. The Secretary of State, by the Act passed a year
or two ago, was empowered to alter those rules and regulations
and to add to them as he might think proper. The Secretary
of State, therefore, had the absolute controul and superin-
tendence of the prisons. By the present Bill it was provided
that rules for separate confinement, in such manner as the
S;Tretary of State should choose to direct, should be considered
as rules and regulations within the meaning of the previous
Act of Parliament. The Secretary of State, therefore, by his
own fiat, might compel the adoption of solitary confine-
ment in every gaol in the kingdom. The Noble and Learned
Lord said there was no alteration in the law. Never had
such powers been given to any Minister of the Crown—to any
one individual. He did not mean to say that solitary con-
finement might not be good ; but it was at present in contro-
versy even in America. Were they then disposed at this
period of the session to adopt the separate system, which was
only solitary confinement with the addition of labour. Their
Lordships had already decided that in certain very great and
enormous offences, prisoners should be subjected to solitary
confinement for one month at a time. but not exceeding three
months in the year. Whet did this Bill do? The Sec ear
of State might confine a man from month to month. When
it was known that a power of taxation consequent on this was
given to the Secretary of State, without limit or controul, and
when it was known that the expense would be enormous, lie
should certainly oppose the vesting such discretion in any one
individual. As there was now no time for a Committee up
stairs, he should support the motion of his Noble Friend the
Marquis of Salisbury.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that before they made any
alteration they ought at least to know what was the best sys-
tem of discipline.

Lord BIWUG [IA M said that he wished to suggest one
thing. It was quite clear that it was not the intention of the
Act, even if it were a lust construction, that the Secretary of
State should have the power of taxing any one counts. H,!
thought, therefore, that that objection might be remedied in
the Committee. The ether objection, however, hc thought
could not so easily be got over.
The Earl of CHICHESTER said that he would earnestly
rec,,mrn,md their Lordships to go into Commtttee on the Bill.
He thought the Bill did not give the Secretary of Slate more
power than he at present possessed.
Ile Duke of RICH ‘IOND said that he thought all the
ol,j,•ctions might be remedied in the Committee. The solitary
system had been tried in Sussex, and with the best efFecti.
If
the House were to limit the clauses to the Report of the Com-
mittee, another Bill might be introduced next session.
Ater a few words from the Earl of WICK LO W,

--
The LORD 'CHANCELLOR said that there as yet had
been no objections made to that part of the Bill which related
to the borough prisons. The Noble and Learned Lord ob-
jected to the powers to be given to the Secretary of State..
The words in the Bill were—" The persons authorised by law
to make rules and regulations for the government of prisons."
The Noble and Learned Lord had assumed th it the person
wag the Seen tar 3 of State. He did not think their Lordships
c.ruld have any objection to pass this Ict, as it did not go fur-
ther than the 4th of George IV. If they looked to that Act
they would find that the magistrates w,..re, in the first instance,
empoaered to make regulations, subject to the correction of
the Secretary of State. The question of separate confinement
sv..!s a long and important one, and one in which he was not at
present inclined to go ; but he thought it should not interfere
with the pr.lgress of this Act.
After a few words from the Marquis of SALISBCRY,
Lord LYNDHURST sail that the Noble Lord was allud-
ing to the 4th of George IV., but he (Lord Lyndhurst) •had
alluded to the sth and 6th of William IV., which provided
that the magistrates at Quarter Sessions might make rules
and regulations for the government of gaols, but should trans.
mit them fro n time to time to the Se.n-etary of State, who
had power to alter as he thought proper, or to add any new
clauses. His (Lord Lyndhurst's) argument, therefore, was,
that if any person had power to alter or add to the regulations
of another, lie had in fact, absolute contreul over such regu-
lations.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE saki it was not the wish
of the Government to give to the Secretary of State the
power feared by the Noble and Learned Lord, although he
confessed that the wording of the Act gave colour to the ap-
prehension. it, thought, however, that there would not be
the least difficulty in totally excluding the Secretary of State
by an alteration is the wording. Noble Lords should not
think that by voting for the Committee they were expressing
any opinion on the merits of the silent system, although at the
same time he thought it desirable that some experiment should
be tried as to its usefulness as a severe punishment.

The House then divilfed :
For the amendment
Against it
Majority —l
The Bill was consequently lost.
Lord BROUG H A M moved the adoption of an APress to
her Majesty, similar to that which hid been unanimously
adopted by the other House of Parliament, praying her Ma-
jesty to use her influence with foreign states to obtain their co-
operation in the suppression of the slave trade.—Agreed to.
The Prisons (Scotland) Bill went through Committee, pro
.forma, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow
(this day).
THE TRADING COMPANIES BILL.
The Trading Companies Bill was committed, and reported
with amendments.

Lord BROUGHAM gave notice he should feel it his duty
to take the sense of the House upon the third reading of the
BR He thought it was a Bill founded upon a worse prinviple
than any Bill which had been offered to their Lordships daring
the present session of Parliament.
The report of the Bill was ordered to be received to-
morrow.