The Sun.
London, England, 1838-07-28 00:00:00

IRISH RAILROADS.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid upon the Table the Second
Report of the Railway Commissioners (Ireland) Enquiry. This was
one of the most important documents that had ever been presented to the
House, and he trusted that it would meet with the most attentive consi-
deration of every Noble Lord connected with Ireland.
On the motion of the Earl of WICKLOW the Affirmations Bill passed
through Committee, and was reported to the House.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
Viscount MELBOURNE rose for the purpose of moving the third
reading of this Bill. He had already stated to their Lordships that the
amendments introduced in the Bill, although he had very considerable
objection to many of them, would not prevent him from proceeding with
the measure, or from taking the steps necessary to present the Bill in its
amended shape to the consideration of the other House of Parliament.
At the same time, however, he must state that a consideration and ex.
amination of the amendments introduced in the Committee had rather
increased than diminished his objection to them, and that he per-
ceived in them a great increase of the difficulties in the way of the
final success of the measure.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the
amendments, he wouldnot go through them with any degree ofdetail. He
had already stated that in some of them he concurred, particularly in the
amendment settling the boundaries of the boroughs, and, though he did not
pledge himself to those boundaries, yet he concurred in the principle.
He thought it prudent and wise to settle the boundaries of the boroughs
in this measure, because if the boundaries were not settled whilst the
general question was pending, they must all know from experience that
no attempt could be made to arrange them afterwards, without exciting
all those local opinions and feelings which would form themselves into a
mass of oppositions which it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to
overcome. But there were many amendments introduced into the Bill
relating to the inchoate rights of the freemen—relating to the adminis-
tration of the charities—relating to the preservation of appointments in
the boroughs—amendments which he believed to be in the highest de-
gree objectionable, and calculated and intended to frustrate this measure
of reform—amendments which, with the appearance of giving a new
municipal government to the towns of Ireland, preserved as much as
possible of those former abuses, which, in point of fact, it was the in-
tention of the Bill to remedy and reform. But he had already said
that he would not go in detail through the amendments. He would, how.
ever, state most distinctly that he differed from many of them—that he
apprehended that they were not likely to meet with concurrence else.
where, and he trusted, if they should be returned with alterations in
these respects, that their Lordships would be prepared to consider
them all in a fair spirit, and with the intention of rendering the Bill
fitting and likely to produce the object which it was intended to effect.
But the great difficulty—the greatest difficulty of all--the
great difli.
culty which had been felt from the beginning—was the amendment with
respect to the qualification.—(Hear, hear.) 'fo that amendment he
still had insuperable objections. The qualification, as it at present
stood, was much too high ; it had every defect that it could possibly
have ; it was uncertain ; it was a measure evidently with a double
aspect—a measure intended to say to one party, it effected a consi.
derable diminution of the franchise ; and to the other party it effected
none at all—(Hear, hear)—to say to one party, it established a qualifica-
tion of 10/. ; and to the other, it established a qualification consider.
ably under 101. Ile therefore said that the qualification was of an un-
certain value, and with respect to which something more definite, more
certain, and with a more fixed meaning, should be introduced into the
measure. Entertaining these objections to the qualification as it
now stood in the Bill, he had nevertheless determined not to movo
any of these amendments of which he had already given no-
tice that he should move at this stage of the Bill, because the
qualification being so objectionable, it appeared to him that it would be
better for those towns which were not included the schedule—that it
would be more agreeable to the inhabitants of those towns—more
agreeable to those acquainted with the feelings of the inhabitants, that
they should be suffered to rest on that Clause of the Bill which enabled
them to apply for a charter, and that the charters should not be forced upon
them, accompanied with such a qualification, but that they should be
guided by their own experience of the working of the Bill, as to whe-
Cher or not they would apply for a charter at all.—(Hear, hear.) He
had also to state that the rules established by the Bill, for distinguishing
the boundaries of the boroughs which should hereafter be applied for,
were exceedingly inconvenient. These boundaries, he apprehended,
were taken from the instructions to the Boundary Commissioners
he believed that these instructions had already been found 'and
inapplica-
ble. It was not, he repeated, his intention to move any amendments
upon this stage of the Bill. The Bill was unquestionably a conces
sion on the part of their Lordships. It was an
wahltiecrhattihoenirouf arndsbip
opi-
nion which the majority of their Lordships had held in formr
years.
It was an abandonment of a principle
had heretofore been very resolute and determined in maintaining.
It might be right to stand firmly and determinedly on that principle. It
might be right for their Lordships to oppose themselves to popular feel.
ing and popular clamour. It might be right to oppose measures which in
themselves were wished for by a great majority of the
people; but
there was nothing so unwise, so absurd, so imprudent, as when they
proposed to make a concession not to do it generously, and if they were
desirous of coming to a settlement of the question, not to make that set.
dement in such terms as would be likely to be ultimately satisfactory,
and therefore lasting.
The question having been put,
Lord BROUGHAM thought the amendments introduced in the Bill
were most effectively calculated to increase that unhappy spirit in Ire-
land which, he had hoped, this Bill would have tended to extinguish.
—(Hear, hear. He agreed in all that had been stated by the Noble
Viscount (Melbourne.) He entirely agreed with him respecting
the whole of the amendments; and with the exception of
the one the Noble Viscount had pointed out, namely, that which
fixed the boundaries of the boroughs, and which he (Lord Brougham)
considered a great improvement, and the amendment which re.
duced the number of the boroughs, and enabled the towns omitted
to obtain charters of incorporation ; with these two exceptions, he must
really protest against the amendments on the grounds stated by the
before Noble
stated Viscount,
to
and on the grounds which he (Lord Brougham) had
their Lordships. He principally objected to the amend-
ment with respect to the qualification. He agreed with the Noble Vis.
count, that the measure had a double aspect. It was intended to say to
•hat side of the House (the Opposition)—" See, I am raising the qualifi-
i.ation ;" and ts. the other bide—'` 1 ain limiting the franchise trona to/.
to something between 71. and W." It did neither the one nor the other.

At all events it wouicliste a deception, for one or other of the parties
would be deceived. But‘he (Lord Brougham) said t.. at both sides were
I
deceived, for it was not a 10/. qualification, nor an 8/., nor 71. ; but, in
fact, 13/. or 141. was the qualification. Perhaps, indeed, Noble Lords on
the other side of the House would have no objection to that qualification,
and they would be agreeably disappointed, for they would say—" You
promised us a 10/. qualification, and you have given us just half as much
again." But the other side would be disappointed, for the Bill fixed a
double qualification. Would this satisfy the people of Ireland ? Ought
it to satisfy them ? He (Lord Brougham) said that it ought not. He said
that they would not be satisfied—that they ought not to be satisfied.
Why ought they not to be satisfied ? What was there in crossing the
Channel—what was there in the nature of an Irishman different from
that of an Englishman, that in England there was not even an eight or
a seven-pound qualification—that there was no pecuniary qualification
at all ? How was it found in every part of this country, wealthy and
populous as it was—rich in every species of commerce, agriculture, and
manufacture—that all the towns and boroughs, from the capital down to
the borough with only its two or three hundred voters—with all their
different constitutions and habits—with all their old associations, and
with every circumstance combined which ought to make it more difficult
to give a qualification at all—how was it found that there was but this
one settled rule—that every man who had a house over his head should
have a voice in the administration of his own affairs ? That was a just
principle of legislation—a wise principle of Government—a humane
principle of Government, because it gave to the people who paid the
taxes—who suffered the abuses, and were under the jurisdiction of the
boroughs—the means of lowering these taxes, and the power—the ef-
fectual power—of controling the administration of their own affairs, and
of keeping watch and ward over the conduct of the Government.
It was, moreover, the principle of the Constitution of Eng-
land, for that Constitution originally knew no property qua-
lification at all. All the freeholders, to the extent of a fraction of a
farthing, until the fifteenth century, had a voice in the Freeholders'
Court, in choosing the delegates to represent them in Parliaments—
(Hear.) The qualification of 40s. was then introduced, and though the
value had so altered, that which was 40s. in Henry the Sixth's reign
was now worth 401. a-year ; yet, so tender was Parliament of anything
tending to encroach on the rights of the people—so determined not to
raise the qualification when the value of money had so altered—that the
40s, freeholder had still the right to vote for Members of Parliament.
This was the constitutional principle; and their Lordships might de-
pend upon it that no course more dangerous or more pernicious could
be taken by any Government than to make manifest to the eye the dis-
tinction between the smaller number of men in whom the property of
the country was vested and the immense body of men who had liberties
to be protected—who had their little property—their labour, which was
their property—to enjoy and to be protected ; but above all, who were
the sinews of war—whose blood had gained our battles, whose sufferings
in distressful time was the distress of the realm. Those men were no ten_
pound or five-pound householders. They were the men, he would re.
peat, whose suffering was the distress of the country—they were the men
whose exertions were the glory of the country; and when he said it was
unwise and imprudent, and perilous as well as unjust, to draw the litre,
and to treat the proprietors differently from the labourers, let them re-
collect how many months' purchase would the property on the right
hand of the line be worth if they ceased to conciliate and retain the
affections of those who had that might which slumbered on the left
hand of the line. No wise Government or prudent lawgiver would
draw the line, and if they adhered to that line it must be with the ut-
most peril to all the highest interests of the country. Their Lordships
had, therefore, acted wisely, because they had justly abandoned that
line. There was no such distinction drawn in the English Municipal
Bill. Three years ago their Lordships gave their assent unani.
mously to that principle. All doubt whether a house of the value of
101.,108., or 10d., ought to be the qualification never entered into their
Lordships' view. He would ask why that rule should not be extended
to Ireland? He (Lord Brougham) saw no reason why it should not
be extended. Were there fewer men with property in Ireland ? On
the contrary, that was not the fact. Were the people less loyal, less
attached to the country ? Were they less likely to take an in.
terest in the management of their own concerns? He should say, very
far from it indeed ; and therefore he held that it was not consistent
with their Lordships' former policy—that it was repugnant to every
principle of justice—that it was founded in general on an unfair and an
unsafe view of the duties of legislation, to adopt one rule for Ireland
after they had adopted another rule for England.—(Hear, hear.) Had
they had in the three years' experience in England any ground to regret
what they had given ? Quite the reverse. All the alarms as to Uni-
versal Suffrage had been dissipated by the practical proof of experience.
One ground urged at the time was, that they could not retain the Par-
liamentary qualification—that they could have no qualification at all.
He (Lord Brougham) believed that there had not been one public
meeting held, or one petition presented, for extending the suffrage of
Parliamentary electors in consequence of the extension of the municipal
suffrage. Petitions there had been in favour of household suffrage—in
favour of Universal suffrage, and petitions there had been in favour of
the Vote by Ballot; but these petitions had not been more numerous
than had been received formerly ; and he vould venture to say that
since the year 1835 they had been fewer in number, and with less
signatures, than during the three years immediately preceeding.
Another claim was, that there would be nothing but mob elections.
Tumult and disorders were predicted, and in his (Lord Brougham's)
opinion, most ignorantly predicted, because he had always observed that
the more kindly they treated the people, and the more they gave them,
they were the more kindly and affectionately disposed towards the Go.
vernment, because they began to feel that they had an interest in the
Government, and that the Government became their own concern. In
every point it ought not to be lost sight of by any prudent lawgiver to
conciliate the people, to give them an interest in the Government, and
to make them feel that they were part and parcel of the Constitution
of the realm.—(Hear, hear.) Not only the proprietors of the country
should feel this, but, above all, they should make those who were not
the proprietors feel it ; those who had little or no property, and who
were the most numerous. They should make those feel it who also
lived under the Constitution, and who, if called on, would support it
with their blood and toil; and if they were not supported, the knell of
that Constitution, though supported by property, and defended by arms, if
they pleased, the knell cf that Constitution had tolled.—(Hear.) He,
therefore, for these reasons, which he had stated not at too much length
—for he had stated them as succinctly as possible—for these reasons he
held that the experience of the last three years was against the present
principle, and not for it, and that their Lordships ought to extend the
principle of the English Bill to Ireland, instead of shearing the Bill of
that brightest part—oae which would have been brighter still if, instead
of a 51. qualification, there had been no qualification at all.—( Hear,
hear.) Every principle of practical experience concurred in making
him (Lord Brougham) desire to see the English principle adopted in
Ireland, and protest against these amendments of his Noble and Learned
Friend ;Lyndhurst). There was another branch of the amendments to
which it had been his intention on a former occasion of adverting, and
one which he thought would be even more likely to irritate the Irish.
He regarded it as frustrating the Reform altogether. He alluded
to that provision which continued the weighers and market clerks
in their offices as if this Act had not passed. This was a
Bill to eradicate abuses ; and the first thing done was to show
that they were not in earnest, by enacting that the authors of the
abuses were to continue in their offices.—(Hear, hear.) He did
not say these individuals were guilty of these abuses, but he knew
that these abuses were the great gravamen of the charge against the
present system. He must be suffered to add—whether their Lordships
intended the Bill to be found on true, wise, sound, and constitutional
principles of legislation ; or whether they only looked to the minor ob.
ject of its own merits, as a measure of legislation, which would stand
the test of having sound principles applied to it, and the test of experi.
ence ; or whether they looked to the more t emporary object, but still
an object of immense importance, the conciliating Ireland, the sp.
peasing the ills of that ill-governed, and therefore ill-fated country—
he must be suffered to add, that in all these views they would be en-
tirely disappointed. Those amendments were contrary to sound prin-
ciples—coutrary to the principles of our own Constitution—and they
were repugnant to the principles on which their Lordships themselves
had framed a Bill three years ago. In another view, they were preg-
nant with the seeds of discontent, and they would give rise to the most
bitter disappointment.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said—My Lords, I think it right to
say a few words on the subject of the general principles of this Bill, and
the conduct of her Majesty's Government in regard to it. I, however,
my Lords, propose to discuss the Bill itself, and to make only one ob-
servation on what has just fallen from the Noble and Learned Lord who
last addressed your Lordships. It is this, that when the Noble and
Learned Lord came down to your Lordships' House to propose to
Parliament a Municipal Corporations Bill, for this country—which
he did when he sat on the woolsack; and when he supported
another Municipal Corporations Bill, which was brought forward
in 1835, he did not either propose the one measure or support
the other on such principles as he has this night avowed, in advo-
cating the rejection of the amendments to this Bill, proposed by
my Noble and Learned Friend.—(Hear, hear.) In the first in-
stance, my Lords, if I recollect rightly, there was a large qualifica-
tion; and in the second though a money qualification, it was a
small one; but my Lords, on what was the qualification proposed
by the Noble and Learned Lord in his measure to depend. Why,
upon the payment of rates and a certain number of years' resi-
dence. Is it not a well-known fact that a man must inhabit a house of a
given value, and for a certain period, before he can be called on to pay
rates, and yet, with this proposition, present to your Lordships' mind,
the Noble and Learned Lord now calls on you to follow the example of
the English Bill, and that, too, notwithstanding an example of his own
measure is at the present moment in existence in Scotland.—(Hear.)
My Lords, that which it is our business now to provide for is the proper
reform of the Municipal Corporations of Ireland, in which it is stated
there are abuses which ought to be corrected, and in respect of which it
is clear that the views of the Legislature, formed many years ago, so
far back, indeed, as 1792 and 1793, have not been carried into execu.
tion. On these grounds, my Lords, I have always thought it desirable
to make alterations in the Irish Corporations, and certainly I have no
hesitation in avowing now, that which I declared the first day the subject
was brought under your Lordships' consideration, that I still think my
views more fit—a better arrangement than the present, for I would
put an end to Corporations in Ireland altogether, and commit the Go.
vernment of that country to the representation of the Sovereign of
this country.—(Cries of " Hear.") They are, however, my Lords,
persons in this country, who think that Corporations should exist in
Ireland ; and that being so, I stated my willingness to adopt any mea.
sure on the subject which I should consider consistent with the princi-
ples of the Constitution, and capable of giving security to a large body
of persons residing in that country, in whose hands power had been
placed up to a shortperiod since ; and, in whose hands, I am sorry to
say, it does not exist at the present moment.—(Hear.) At the same
time, my Lords, in carrying into execution this or any other measure
that has been proposed, I have sincerely endeavoured to assist the Go-
vernment, so far as I could conscientiously do so, in providing schemes
that would be satisfactory to all parties, and make that just and proper
distribution of power which is so necessary to give security to all, by af-
fording protection alike to the lives and properties of every class of her
Majesty's subjects, whether in this country or in Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) Now, my Lords, what is it that has kept Ireland in the
state of agitation in which that country has so long been ? The
Noble and Learned Lord and the Noble Viscount have complained of the
sort of qualificatiou, or stream which it is the object of the
amendment of my Noble and Learned Friend to establish with
regard to the Irish Corporations, and both represented it as a de-
ception on your Lordships, whether sitting on this or on that side of
the House. Now, I must say, my Lords, that I do not think it possible
for any man to state in more clear or perspicuous language than my
Noble and Learned Friend did what his intentions were, when he ex-
plained to your Lordships the principles on which his amendment pro-
eeeded.—(Hear, hear.) But what is it that my Noble Friend stated to
your Lordships? Why, he stated that the same amount of suffrage
existed in Scotland as that which he proposed for Ireland. He stated
also that certain deductions ought to be made, and he at the same time
gave your Lordships the authorities on which that part of his proposition
which related to deductions, was founded. My Noble and Learned
Friend, my Lords, likewise stated to your Lordships the different Acts
of Parliament, which proved the necessity of the deductions which he
proposed should be made. He stated the instructions given to the Poor-law
Commissions, and finally, he stated what the charges of the Judges to the
Grand Juries were on this subject. It is itnpossible for any Noble Lord,
who heard my Noble and Learned Friend, to pretend that he could be
deceived for a single instant as to the meaning of my Noble and
Learned Friend ; for what my Noble and Learned Friend stated to your
Lordships was, that he stood clearly on the ground of a ten.pound
suffrage with deductions.—(Hear.) But, my Lords, the Noble and
Learned Lord and the Noble Viscount think this amount of suffrages
too much, and yet neither of them has made any other proposition to
your Lordships.—(Hear.) I, my Lords, intended to move that the
amount of the qualification proposed by the amendment of nay Noble
and Learned Friend should be increased one or two pounds, but, on re-
consideration, I thought it better to leave the towns to make their
own proposal in this respect, when the operations of the Bill shall be
ascertained. That is, in my judgment, the best course we can take on
the subject, for ! must L.:j s ci.rued to say, notwithstaniiihg ti,r paoei::-
ric which the Noble and Learned Lord kas pronounced on the coun-
t try, that I for one am no very ardent admirer of those Corporatiens.--.

(Hear, hear.) True, my Lords, a greater degree of municipal tran..
quillity exists in the streets of the English towns now than be_
fore the Corporation Reform Bill passed, but to what, I ask your
Lordships, is this increased tranquillity owing?—(Hear.) Is it
not, in a great measure, to a more efficient watch and police ? It is, I
which have been
established my Lords, to the additional watch and police
established in the various corporation towns of this country that the
present tranquillity of the streets of those towns is to be attributed ;
but it should not be forgotten that this tranquillity has been purchased
at a very large expense in the way of public money.—(hear, hear.)
The same course, however, is not to be taken with regard to Ireland ;
and even though this Bill, as amended, should be adopted, there is no
intention to make provisions for the tranquillity of the Irish corporative
towns similar to that which was made for the towns of this country.--
(Hear, hear.) On the other hand, my Lords, let me ask your Lordships
what is the social condition of the corporative towns in England ?
Dees social tranquillity prevail in those towns ? No such thing.—
(Hear, hear.) On the contrary, nothing but discord exists, and from
one end of the year to the other are they not the scenes of perpetual po-
litical squabblings respecting one election or another. As to that peace
and happiness which has for so long a period rendered England the most
desirable spot in the world for a man to reside in, it has ceased to exist ;
and, from all I can hear, I fear much, before long, we will find that this
system of agitation and political squabbling to which I alluded will not
tend either to the security of property or the existence of capital in this
country.—(Hear, hear.) Then, my Lords, it appears that there is an-
other part of the amendments to this Bill to which both the Noble and
Learned Lord and the Noble Viscount object—l mean that part of the
amendments which relate to the Parliamentary Commissioners ; but,
for my own part, I am free to confess that I do not know what the Noble
Lords are at. It is, my Lords, no doubt true that the Commissioners
for Charities are preserved in the amendments made to this Bill by my
Noble and Learned Friend; but, as regards myself, I must say I think
this among the best of the amendments proposed by my Noble and
Learned Friend.—(Hear, hear.) My opinion is, that a gross mistake
was made in the English Bill on the subject of charities, and therefore
I, for one, will never consent to leave the charities of Ireland in the
doubtful state in which the charities of England have been left. My
Lords, I would not have consented to the English Bill if I did not be-
lieve that a measure would have been brought forward in the next
Session for the regulation of the charities of this country. If I am not
misinformed, my Lords, the funds of these charities are used and applied
for purposes of corruption in both municipal and Parliamentary elec_
tions—(Cheers)—and what my Noble and Learned Friend has in view
by his amendments is, to take care that in Ireland charitable funds are
not directed to similar ends. My Noble and Learned Friend wishes
that in the present arrangement provision shall be made for keeping the
management of the Irish charities in the hands of the Commissioners;
and althougte i am as anxious as any Noble Lord opposite can be to see
all public charities, whether in Englant or Ireland, properly reformed,
I am bound to say that the proposition of my Noble and Learned Friend
in this particular has my most hearty concurrence.—(Hear, hear.) My
Lords, the Noble Viscount has expressed his anxiety, in case this Bill
comes back from another place with alterations, that your Lordships
should evince a disposition to consider those alterations with a sincere
desire to agree to this measure. For my own part, my Lords, I have
no doubt that your Lordships are prepared to inset whatever alterations
the other House of Parliament may make in this Bill in a proper
spirit; and that, however that other place may express their views
respecting it, you will be actuated only by a sincere desire to con-
cur in their wishes, provided those wishes are consistent with your
own ideas of what is fit and most desirable for the real interests of
the Irish people.—(Hear, hear.) My Lords, I must say that I for
one should be glad to see the Noble Viscount and his colleagues
exerting their influence to conciliate that other place in relation
to this House.—(Cheers.) I say, my Lords, I should be glad to see a
single instance in which such a course was taken by the Noble Viscount
and his colleagues.—(Hear, hear.) My Lords, I consider that all these
reforms should proceed in such a way as that no vexatious tyranny could
be exercised against individuals—in such a way as that the rights of
individuals should be respected, and that no one be deprived of his
existence, or the means of living, by any violent or ferocious faction
who may for the moment have the upper hand.—(Hear, hear.) In the
measures of the Noble and Learned Lord he took good care that corn.
pensation should be given to all those men who were to be deprived of
their means of living as a consequence of the reforms which lie intro-
duced ; and I say, my Lords, that her Majesty's Government out to have
done the same. The Noble and Learned Lord acted on the right prin-
ciple; for I contend that no reforms can be just which leave those who
suffer ruin from them, who are destroyed by them, without proper corn-
pensation.—(Hear, hear.) My Lords, there is scarcely a post which
does not bring me accounts of some poor man who is to lose his
office or be deprived of his emoluments, who is to lose his whole
means of existence should the arrangements under this Bill be adopted.
One instance which has come to my knowledge, and the hardship
of which will be prevented by the amendment of my Noble and
Learned Friend, I mayntention. That is the case of the Lord Mayor of
Dublin. It seems that at the termination of his year of office the Lord
Mayor of Dublin is entitled to 1,0001., but under this Act of Parliament
he is to be deprived not only of this 1,0001., but of the privilege of hold-
ing the same office afterwards for another year without any compensation
at all.—(Hear.) There is also another party who has the same sort of
claim, and he will of course be placed in the same situation. It is per-
fectly true, my Lords, that your Lordships have made arrangementa for
satisfying such claims; but what I say is, that it was incumbent on her
Majesty's Government to have provided redress in all cases of the kind—
to have Wien some step by which the victims of their measures shall not
suffer—shall not be deprived of that fair and reasonable compensation
to which the services they have performed entitle them.—(Hear.) My
Lords, I have troubled your Lordships at greater length than I intended,
but I could not hear what has been stated by the Noble Viscount, and
the Noble and Learned Lord, without declaring why it is that I give my
support to this Bill as it now stands.—(Hear.) I am satisfied, my Lords,
that every proposal or amendment which may proceed from another
place will be anxiously, considered by your Lordships; but while I do
hope that something like conciliation will be shown in that place, I am
equally desirous that the claims of the victims of this Bill will be fully
and fairly considered.—(Cheers.)
Lord BROUGHA Iv% in explanation, said that the reason neither he
nor his Noble Friends had proposed any other qualification was, because
the Bill, as it originally stood, contained a 51. franchise. Now he was
not satisfied either with that or the present limit, wishing for a house-
hold qualification ; and hence it was, that he was anxious to see the
same qualification as was given by the English Bill introduced into this.
With respect to compensation to those who might snit:tin injury try
measures like the present, all he could say was, that though a Reformer,
lie went the full length o: the Noble Duke. God forbid that he
should ever be a party to any reform which dill not aflbrd protection to
parties who suffered from it, at all events during their lives, for he
had always thought it a great mistake on the part of those reformers
who brought in Bills which would deprive people of their bread with.
out giving them adequate compensation. He held all such reforms to
be bad in policy and unjust in principle, and when he brought in the
English Bill he said if the House of Commons would not agree to make
provision for those who were entitled to compensation, he would not
move further in it. So far he kept the staff in his own hand.—(hear.)
The Earl of WICKLO \V was glad that Noble Lords had agreed to
reform the Corporations of Ireland ; but he could not agree with the
Noble Duke that if this Bill were passed in its present shape it would
allay agitation on this subject in that country. He wished the num-
ber of towns to which Municipal Corporations were granted to be in-
creased ; but while he entertained this wish, he never could consent to
a low qualification—a low franchise would not, he was persuaded be
judicious in Ireland. It might as an abstract principle be good to re.
move all Corporations from the Irish towns ; but such a course he thought
would not be desirable in practice, as they were institutions to which
the people were attached by long habit. In fact, they could not de-
prive the towns of Ireland of Corporations without danger; and this
being his own opinion, he wished the Noble Viscount had
persevered in his intentions. There was one observation of
the Noble and Learned Lord on which he (Lord Wicklow) wished
to remark, but he perceived that the Noble and Learned
Lord had left the House, as he always did when he had made
his own speech.—(A laugh.) The Noble and Learned Lord said that
the franchise now proposed was a deception on both sides of the House;
that one party were deceived in supposing it a 104 qualification, and
the other if they imagined it would be reduced to 71. or 81. Both parties,
he said, were deceived, because it was neither the one nor the other, but
in fact a 131. franchise. He (Lord Wicklow) must deny this. If the
qualification were to exceed 101., certainly it should not have his assent;
but the Noble and Learned Lord was in error on the subject, and he fell
into this mistake by applying the circumstances of England to Ireland.
The rating in the two countries would be widely different, and his be-
lief was that as the rating in Ireland would not exceed the value, as was
the case in England. the qualification proposed by his Noble and
Learned Friend would not, in fact, be more than a qualification of
something between 81. and 91. It might be advantageous to the work..
ing of this Bill if their Lordships were at once to decide upon a 91.
franchise; but as it might not be convenient to adopt that course now,
lie was prepared to support the amendment of his Noble and Learned
Friend.—(Hear.)
Lord LYNDHURST then proposed certain verbal alterations in seve-
ral clauses of the Bill, for the purpose of assimilating them to the
clauses in the measures which had been passed for amending the English
Corporation Act.
The amendments were all agreed to.

Lord REDESDALE proposed clauses for the purpose of continuing
the management of certain charities in the hands in which their affairs
were at present placed.
These clauses were ordered to be added to the Bill.

Several verbal amendments were then made in the Bill, at the sugges.
tion of different Noble Lords, which were ordered to be printed and re.
ported on Monday.
The Bills upon the table were then forwarded a stage, and their Lord.
ships adjourned At a Quarter before Nine o'Clock, until Monday.

FROM LAST NIGHT'S GAZETTE.

ST. JAMES'S-PALACE, JULY 18, 1838.

The Queen was this day pleased to confer the honour of Knight-
hood upon Jeffery Prendergast, Esq., a Major- General in the
Honourable East India Company's Service, and late Military Audi-
tor-General at Madras.