The Sun.
London, England, 1853-02-26 00:00:00

NORWICH ELECTION.

Mr. MACKENZIE 'wished to ask the hon. member
for Finsbury what he intended to do with regard to the
petition which the hon. member presented yesterday on
the subject of the Norwich Election ?

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said, if the house had per-
mitted him yesterday he should have gone on then with
the matter, and the house would not now have been
placed in a ridiculous and absurd position as regarded
the 'public. The Tory interest had been grossly ill-
used by a portion of the Tory party, and particularly
by the Carlton Club. The withdrawal of the petition,
however, was a fraud upon the house ; but the Speaker
decided that a fraud upon the house was not a breach of
privilege. He was prepared to prove that Mr. Brown
had no authority to withdraw the petition, and
he would give notice that, after the private business
on Monday, he would move for a committee of inquiry
to investigate the whole matter. (Hear, hear.)

PUBLIC BUSINESS.
Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that on Monday the
ordnance estimates would be taken, and on Friday next
the Canada Clergy Reserves Bill.
The motion for the adjournment of the house until
Monday was then agreed to.

ANTI-MILITIA SOCIETIES.
On the motion for going into committee of supply,
Colonel NORTH referred to the letter of Somerville,
read to the house on a previous day, which he thought
did great credit to the writer. He would call the attention
of the house to the following statement made by the
honourable member for Westminster. The statement
was to the effect that the French had not more than
15,000 troops to invade this country. If this should be
the case it would he undesirable to._ spend the public
money on such large armaments as the country
at present maintained. A statement also had
been circulated, that the pay of officers who wero quite
unnecessary, would support 20,000 seamen. The
hon. member for the West Riding had, in a speech,
said that he drew a distinction between the
force to protect commerce and the large marine of this
country. The hon, member had said that he wanted to
see 20 or 30 members in the house who would not
support any Government that did not attempt to reduce
our armaments. The hon. member for Manchester told
the meeting that the Duke of Wellington was held up to
the world as the saviour of his country—a statement
which called forth cheers and hisses, but he thought the
hon. gentleman would have displayed more taste had he
been more sparing of his taunts at the expense of the
army. (Hear.)
Sir DE LACY EVANS denied that he had ever made
such a statement as that which had been imputed to him
by the hon. member for Manchester.

THE ENROLLED PENSIONERS.
Mr. RICH wished to bring under the notice of the
house the expediency of gradually increasing the num-
bers and efficiency of the reserve force of pensioner
battalions, without detriment to our established militia
and regular forces. Parliament had hitherto paid too
much attention to the active, at the expense of the
reserve army, and the consequence was, the
army estimates of this country had been exceedingly
large. The active army ought to be kept down to the
lowest point consistent with the safety of the country,
while the pensioner battalions, the formation of which
was due to Lord Hardinge, ought to be improved
and augmented. At present these battalions
which numbered some 30,000 able-bodied men, were
kept up at a cost of 40,0001. a year, but only 16,000 of
them were in the habit of being called out for service.
Now these battalions could hardly be treated as an
efficient reserve force, and he would, therefore,
suggest that the regular army should be gradually re-
duced, and these reserve battalions increased to 100,000
men, who could be kept in a state of efficiency at a mo-
derate expense, and called out for garrison service in
the event of the exigencies of the national defence
requiring the concentration of the regular army at other
points. His plan would be to extend the system of giving
short pensions for short service, and require the pen-
sioner to enrol himself in an effective battalion of reserve.
The only objection he had ever heard to this plan was
that it would have the effect of draining the army
of its best men ; but those who made this objec-
tion should remember that the services—the active
services—of the soldier would still be at the dispo-
sal of his country, while a large portion of his pay
would be saved to the Exchequer. There would be
besides the additional advantage of having all the
branches of the army in a constant state of efficiency,and
while that was the case there would be no room for the
fears of those alarmists who had raised the cry of a com-
ing invasion. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. HERBERT had listened to the statement of
the hon. member with mucli interest and attention, but
it appeared to him that the plan which the hon. mem-
ber proposed could not be safely carried out. He was
bound to admit, however, that the time was not far dis-
tant when something must be done to organise soldiers
who were discharged from the army on pensions, after a
short term of servitude. This plan of retirement after a
short service was introduced by Lord Panmure, when
Secretary at War ; and although there were defects in
the details of that system, yet, on the whole, it had been
found to work well. But it was not right to force
the soldiers to leave the army after ten years service ;
it was much better to leave it optional with the soldier
to remain or not, but for those who choose to retire on
pensions it was necessary to have some scheme of organi-
sation, and he could assure the house that the subject
was constantly engaging the attention of the authorities
at the War-offioe.

• -
THE BURMESE WAR.
for copies or extracts oftocomm
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY rose to mieaotvieonsforwahinolidmreass
portion of the Burmah
relation to the annexation of any
have passed in reference hostilitiesun in Ava, and iyn
questionEm e i no
ft
ph
ee
aeeaes t.
or
wI
at r a
ipnp anrdeida
tteorrihtimo rythtaot tthhee Bwriiitoilseh
required the consideration of Parliament, and that the
system of undertaking hostilities against power without
the concurrence or sanction of the home Government,
should no longer be continued, When any question as
to hostilities arose in any part of Europe or our colonies,
there were responsible Ministers to have recourse to,
who had to answer for the exercise of the prerogative of
the Crown ; but in India there was no check at all in
the exercise of the practically unlimited powers lodged
in the hands of the Governor-General and his advisers.
The war in which we had lately been involved with the
Burmese might be a just one or not ; if it were not just,
we had got into a hopeless scrape. The question in his
mind was, whether this 'war might not have been
avoided, and whether, in point of fact, the •British em-
pire had any great interest in carrying this war to a
conclusion. He thought that of late years the military
and naval forces of the empire had been directed with
too great recklessness against those nations of the earth
who happened to be less advanced in civilisation
e
than ourselves. We all know what had been
consequence of invading Affghanistan ,
and
toalso t
such
the Burmese war of 1825, which had
led,ooo/.
a waste of treasure. It was true we received
-
I,ooon
very d oubt
of the expense from the King of Ava,
d n h
of
ful coin ; but it would be difficult to make out that the
British empire gained much by that transaction. The

in which to war had taken its origin appeared of a
kind wholly unworthy to justify measures of so serious
a description. It appeared that in 1851 the Governor-
General of India had no definite policy with regard to our
relations with the Court of Ava. As it was, it appeared
that a war which began with a demand of indemnity
amounting to less than 1,0001. from the Burmese, had
already resulted in the annexation of one of the most
valuable provinces of their empire. The party originally
charged with the negotiations for redress was Commodore
Lambert, and this, he thought was the first error. into
which we had fallen. Barbarous as the Court of Ava was,
it at first showed itself disposed to grant redress, and to
this effect Commodore Lambert wrote on the 2d January.
The Burmese Governor of Rangoon was recalled, and
matters seemed in a favourable train, until on the 6th of
January a quarrel as to etiquette arose, which resulted
in the seizure of a ship belonging to Burmese traders, by
order of the British commodore. He contended that the
Governor-General of India had no right whatever, to
make an aggressive war out of India. The present, he
apprehended, would turn out a second edition of the
Kafir war—however brave with the sword our troops
were, they fell victims to the climate. What, he asked,
was to be the end of the course on which we Lad
entered ? Were we going to annex the Burmese empire
to our own in. India ! It would be impossible to defend
the frontier without stationing 15,000 or 20,000 men in
an unhealthy district for this express purpose. With re-
spect to the efficiency of the military officers in command,
he did not think we had, in this country sufficient data
for forming an opinion, but it was quite clear that there
must be vacillation in our policy, because we had taker.
towns and then abandoned them. It appeared to him
that this war had orignated in a hasty act on the part of
Commodore Lambert, in seizing the Burmese ship, which
put an instant end to diplomatic intercourse.
Sir C. WOOD thought the house would not deem this
a convenient opportunity for discussing the question to
which his hon. friend had called their attention, on an
evening set apart for the army estimates. With respect
to 'the motion made, he had already given notice to lay
on the table of the house papers in continuation of those
already produced, bringing down the information respect-
ing the occurrences of the war to the annexation of the
province of Pegu, which appeared to constitute an epoch
in its transactions. The present hostilities did, not ap-
pear to him to have arisen out of any isolated fact,
but rather from a series of indignities offered to Bri-
tish subjects by tthe Burmese, of which that which
had given occasion for hostile proceedings was the
last. It was true that it was one of a,„ particularly of-
fensive aescliption ; but though every opportunity was
given to the Burmese to retract it there was not the least
disposition evinced to offer any apology or atonement.
The Governor-General had been most anxious to avoid
annexation, and every step he had taken in this direc-
tion had been forced upon him by circumstances. He
should content himself with observing that he concurred
in the approbation with which the Governor-General's
pohcy throughout had been viewed by his predecessor in
office. The papers would probably be in the possession
of honourable members in the course of three or four
days, and they would then be in a better position to
judge of the operations which had been pursued.
Mr. HUME agreed that the present was not the
most convenient time for discussing the subject. The
honourable baronet opposite should know that the re-
sponsible Minister for India was the President of the
Board of Control, and that everything that place in re-
ference to peace or war was by his authority. At this
moment the court of directory were not in possession of
a single dispatch to show the origin of the war, and
were as ignorant of it as, he was himself. In like man-
ner, with regard to the first Burmese war, the Indian
Government had been obliged to pay 13,000,0001. for its
expenses without having before them a single dispatch.
He agreed with his hon. friend that this war might have
been avoided. Commodore Lambert had sent on shore
an officer to obtain an interview with the governor of
the fort at Rangoon, who probably thinking that the
affair ought to have been arranged in an interview be-
tween the commodore and himself, deemed himsel
improperly treated, and redress was, in consequence, re-
fused, which led to the seizure of the Burmese ships.
What should we think if the French or Americans sent
an ambassador here, whom we refused to receive on the
ground of his credentials being informal, and proceeded in
consequence to seize British ships in their own waters ? In
speaking of Lord Dalhousie he must say he had a diffi-
cult duty to perform, and was- as anxious to avoid war
as any person ; but by the course that had been adopted
the Government of Ava was called upon to deal with a
man who had taken and kept one of their ships. But
though the King of Ava had to send a message to a man
who had, as he thought, violated the law, the most com-
plimentary mode of sending it was adopted by him, as
indicated by the number of attendants, that being the
mode resorted to by the native princes of evincing their
desire to pay a compliment. As far as his (Mr Hum's)
impression went, Commodore Lambert was the cause of
the war, though he perceived that he had already re-
ceived a pension of 1501. a year for good services on the
Irrawaddy. He hoped that these events would lead to
the adoption of a different course with regard to the go-
vernment of India. He differed from many persons who
thought that the court of directors might be dispensed
with. He thought they could exercise most useful
powers in examining the details of the revenue and of the
army, and to enable them to do so effectively they
should be made acquainted with the facts. Tb,e whole
of the government of India was Rimed in the hands of
two individuals, the chairman and deputy-chairman, and
the Board of Control and other parties were not allowed
to communicate the objections they might entertain. He
had a strong opinion that there were men in the court
of directors whose local experience, and constant atten- - '
tion and devotion to the affairs of India would make
them an able council for any Government to carry on
the affairs of India. He wished to see a Minister for
India in that house, instead of having a board that never
sat, and commissioners that never acted. All that was
a perfect mockery, and an insult to common sense, but
he hoped the result of the inquiry now going on would
lead to a better state of things. (Hear, hear.)
Sir T. HOGG declared that the last question he had
expected to have heard raised in that house was a ques-
tion as to the justice of the Burmese war. He might
have expected that various commentaries would have
been made as to the mode and manner of carrying on
that war, but to hear the justice of the origin of the war
questioned, and that by a member who had an oppor-
tunity of reading the papers that had been laid upon the
table of the house, did, he confessed, excite his astonish-
ment. It was true it had been said that the propriety of
this war, and the operations, so far as they had proceeded,
had been censured by three Governments—the Govern-
ment of the noble lord the member for the city of Lon-
don, who was at the head of the Administration when the
discussion first arose ; the recent Government, presided
over by Lord Derby • and the present Government ; bit
there was authority alluded to that was greater than any
one of them, or greater than even all of them united, and
that was the authority of the illustrious man who. was
now no more. (Hear, hear.) In a discussion that had
recently taken place, a memorandum was produced and
read by the noble lord at the head of the Government,
proceeding from that illustrious man, which seemed to
answer by anticipation everything that had been said there
or elsewhere. After Lord Derby had laid every document
and military paper, from the commencement of the war to
the month of August, before the Duke of Wellington,
the following memorandum was written by him
three weeks before his lamented death :—" It appears
to me that this war could not have been averted ;
that the operations fixed upon were judicious, and
they have been carried into execution with great gal-
-1 lantry by the officers and by the troops." (Hear, hear.)
With testimony such as that, not only as to the plan of
operations and the success attending them, but also as
to the necessity for the war, he thought it would be use-
less on his part to occupy the time of the house by offer-
ing further observations on those points. His honour-
able friend must be as well aware as he was that by a
series of acts the dignity of the Government of India had
been outraged, and that a system was at length brought
to a climax and crisis which had been carried on for
many years. Did not the honourable gentleman know
that the Burmese Government had permitted a British
ambassador to reside at Ava, but that Colonel Burney,
when he visited Ava, was treated with contempt ? Was
he not also aware that when Colonel Benson was sent to
Ava he was treated much worse. The outrages and in-
dignities heaped upon him exceeded belief, his life was
in danger, and he was obliged to retire. (Hear, hear.)
At last matters were brought to a close, and the course
pursued by Lord Dalhousie throughout showed that his
desire was to obtain compensation for the past, and
security for the future, at the least possible expense of
money, at the least possible risk of life, and at the least
possible necessity for the extension of the territory. He
thought that by striking a "vigorous blow, and taking
possession of Rangoon, he might compel the Burmese to
come to an immediate settlement. -(l3ear.) It was quite
true that the Burmese said they time ra
nd the gover-
nor, but it was merely to gain time, and it was not the
old but the new governor that had heaped those indig-
nities upon them. (Hear.) far from Commodore Lam-
bert having shown any dispBosoition or war he had written
to the Governor-General to say that he had' every reason
to hope and believe that he would bring the matter
to a satisfactory conclusion and to an amicable close.
His hon. friend, the member for Montrose had spoken
of the usages of the Burmese empire, and of the manner
in which they had treated Commodore Lambert • but
the fact was that he had received a deputation of inferior
officers, and the act of sending them to Commodore
Lambert was in itself an insult. But Commodore Lam-
bert did not refuse to receive them- Though he was
aware of the insult that was offered to him by sending
those persons to wait upon him, he received them with
great courtesy, and sent a message in return to the
governor by the second in command, who was told to
wait in a shed, as the governor was asleep. ?lI.CI F
hear.) They could afford in India to do much a to
lose much, but they could not afford to
nsutbmtoit
retain
otahine
slightest indignity or insult, if they
their power, authority, and empirein meant
country. It
was said that the Governor-General had no policy in the
course adopted by him, but the fact wasthathispolHeiey
was clear, distinct, and, step by step, consecutive,
proceeded with the intention of seizing upon territory
to insure the payment of expenses, and when that object
was effected, to make restitutionffe of it ; but when be
found it was impossible baect an amicable arrange-
ment, he came to the definite conclusion of occupying
Pegu. (Hear.) He had never contemplated the mighty
project of conquering a great empire, but merely to ob-
tain possession of Pegu, and thereby have the whole
sea coast ; and, in point of fact, in place of extending
their empire, it amounted more to a consolidation
of what they had than to any extension. (Hear,
hear.) Amongst the animadversions cast upon Lord
Dalhousie, it had been said that nothing so pre-
posterous had ever been done as to take possession
of Pegu without having an abundance of animals and
carriages for the purposes of transport. (Hear, hear.)
He would tell them what was necessary for the purposes
of Lord Dalhousie's occupation of Pegu, and what he
had done, It was necessary to have the means of trans*

port and carriages for the militaryforce that were moved
from Martaban to Rangoon, which was to the east of
Prome, and was that force withot; the means of trans-
port ? Lord Dalhousie 'with the energy which charac-
terised him, went himself and personally gave orders for
the assembling Of elephants and for the collection of
other necessary means of transport. It had been stated
that the elephants were useless, because they had to pass
through the Arracan mountains ; but that was never
contemplated, the route selected being by the way of
Chittagong. Such animadversions should not be made,
unless the fact of their being merited was established
beyond all possibility of question, and supported by pa-
pers. Such representations were most mischievous, and
tended to paralyse the efforts of those who were employd.
The exaggerations had been so preposterous that he must
beg the attention of the house while he answered some
of them. It was represented that the first expedition
had cost 240,0001., but it appeared that the whole of the
expenses amounted only to 30,000/. It was said that the
war expenditure of the year was 500,000/., but it was not
40,0001. a month. The melancholy scenes that had oc-
curred during the former Burmese war were to be attri-
buted to the want of food and clothes, and covering and
medical treatment. Lord Dalhousie knew that well, and
before the war broke out he gave orders for providing
skeleton houses for the reception of 6,000 or 7,000 men,
and they were conveyed in steamers to the place where
they were required. The result was that the medical
returns from the troops during the rains showed the
health of the soldier, on an average, to be as good as
the health of the troops on the plains of Bengal at that
time. It was done with economy, but done effectually ;
and, in fact, all that could be effectually done was done
by Lord Dalhousie. By his personal superintendence in
that province he had established order sooner than it had
been established in any province that had previously been
annexed to the British empire. (Hear, hear.) There
was one consideration of responsibility that pressed upon
Lord Dalhousie, and that distinguished officer, General
Godwin, who had performed his duty assiduously, and
that was the fear of compromising the inhabitants of the
district of Pegu. There was an apprehension in the
minds of General Godwin and Lord Dalhousie that if
they gave anything like an intimation to the Peguese
to side with them, and if they were subsequently
to retire from Pegu, the state of those men would
be wretched if General Godwin allowed them to
do anything to assist him, or if Lord Dalhousie
had issued such a proclamation until he was sure the
ann3mation would take place. Scarcely had the procla-
mation been issued, when offers were received from two
of the leading chiefs, offering to put down the dacoits
. and plunderers, and a thousand muskets having been
supplied to them, great confidence was thereby given to
the natives. (Hear, hear.) Lord Dalhousie had been
requested by the court of directors that he would not
allow the usual period of five years to be the termina-
tion of his government, but that he would continue to
afford the state the benefit of his services ; and though
Lord Dalhousie had strong reasons to induce him to
return to his native country, he had acceded to the
request, and he trusted that as they had been fortunate
enough to have the services of the most distinguished
men in the country, they would still longer enjoy the
services of the present Marquis of Dalhousie. (Hear.)
The subject then dropped—an order having been pre-
viously given, as stated by Sir C. Wood, to lay the
papers moved for on the table.
ARMY BREAD.

Sir W. JOLLIFFE begged, pursuant to notice, to
call the attention of the house to the quality of the
bread that was supplied to her Majesty's forces in Great
Britain, under the existing contracts. In the union
workhouses, in the county gaols, and in their convict
establishments, the most unexceptionable quality of
bread was supplied, and when it was found that the
bread supplied to the troops was not of a good quality,
it was natural that it should excite discontent amongst
them. (Hear.) Representations had been made at
various periods with regard to this evil, and the mode
in which it was attempted to be redressed was felt to be
ten times more mischievous than the evil itself. Per-
mission had been most unwisely given that the troops
should pay the difference to the contractor to be fur-
nished with a better description of bread than, he was
bound by the contract to furnish. In his opinion, that
led to serious evils, and tended to make the contractor
furnish a worse description of bread than he would other-
wise have been able to do, even under the contract. It
might have the effect of inducing him to take the con-
tract at an extremely low rate, by which he might be a
loser, hoping to be able to pay himself by what he might
receive in addition from the soldiers. The household troops
were differently supplied. They were allowed through their
colonel to make monthly contracts for their bread. The
consequence was, that the burden which had fallen on the
line was totally avoided by the household troops, and no
charge was made to them for receiving good bread. He
thought it was not too much to expect that a wholesome
kind of household bread should constantly be in use
among all classes of troops in the service. In the event
of a bad harvest, which would, of course, considerably
increase the price of bread, the most serious inconveni-
ences might ensue to the service. It was on these grounds
that he had felt it his duty to bring this subject under
the consideration of the Government ; and he could now
only beg that the right hon. gentleman the Secretary at
War would give the matter his serious consideration.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said, the subject of the
mode of supplying the soldiers with bread came before a
committee on the army ordnance department, which sat
two or three years ago, and in consequence of the recom-
mendations of that committee, which were drawn up by
Lord Hardinge, Sir W. Gordon, and Sir Randolph
Routh, it was decided that for the future the quality of
the bread which was called "seconds" should be used
among the soldiers. It was further decided, on the evi-
dence given before that committee,. that, upon the whole,
what was called the regimental system of contract gave
the most satisfaction to the troops individually ; but
there was this disadvantage in it, that in case of distur-
bance or war, that system of contract would break
down ; for they would then require an organisation for
which they had no preparation. There was also this
difficulty ; where a whole regiment was together in one
place, the contract would be made very cheap, but where
companies of the regiment were stationed in different
counties, they were supplied with .bread at a very exor-
bitant rate. It was not, perhaps, just to describe the
bread in use among the troops as bad, seeing that the
same kind of bread was frequently used by the aristo-
cratic classes on account of its exceedingly wholesome
and nutritious quality, and generally by the labouring
and all other classes who were accustomed to use bread
as a principal article of food.
THE ARMY ESTIMATES—SUPPLY.

The house then resolved itself into a committee of supply
upon the Army Estimates, Mr. Wilson Patten in the

chair.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said, in moving the estimates
for her Majesty's forces for the ensuing year, he should,
perhaps be best consulting the convenience of the house by
refraining from going into any lengthened statement with
respect to the number of men which would be proposed for
the year. On the first night of the session his noble friend
sitting near him (Lord J. Russell) expressed the intention
of the Government to make no increase of men for the
army, navy, and ordnance upon the number proposed by
%he late Government ; and as that statement was received
with general satisfaction by the house, he (Mr. Sidney Her-
bert) thought he would be uselessly taking up the time of
of the committee were he to enter upon a statement of the
reasons which had induced the Government to retain the
number of men now in the estimates. He did not mean
to say positively that there would be no alteration in the
numbers, because, in fact, there was a slight increase, re-
sulting from the return of a regiment of cavalry from
India, which now augmented the aggregate number pro-
posed to be maintained by between 200 and 300,
and affected the total charge to the extent of
about 17,0001. He would just shortly state what
were the heads of difference in the principal votes,
before he drew the attention of the committee to cer-
tain points which he thought worthy of their conside-
tion. The changes on the first vote arose principally
from the augmentation occasioned by the return of a
cavalry regiment from India, to which he had already ad-
verted ; and there would be found alterations resulting
partly from that reduction of the staff, which the vigilance
of the War-office was always endeavowing to eflect, and
partly from other causes. The committee would find that
the whole charge of the Tower had been transferred to the
vote for rewards for distinguished services. The hon. gen-
tleman the member for Montrose would recollect that in
1834 and 1835 there was a recommendation from the com-
mittee of the army and navy departments that for the
future all governors_ of sinecure garrisons should be abo-
lished, and that the proceeds of them should be devoted to
the forming of a fund which should be distributed as re-
wards for distinguished services to officers who had been
recommended for such rewards in consideration of their
long services, and that that should continue augmenting
till the whole sum had reached the amount of 18,0001.
The transfer of the vote for the Tower to the estimate
be had mentioned completed that sum of 18,0001.,
' and for the future the proceeds of 'that department
would be distributed in the shape of rewards for
distinguished services among deserving officers. In the
meantime it would be necessary to place on the staff
a small effective force, which should perform the
duties of the garrison. The reductions under the head of
the foreign staff were effected by the diminution in the
troops in Africa, Bermuda, Australia, Canada, and, gene-
rally speaking, in all the British colonies. The vote for
the public departments would be found almost in the same
state as it was last year. It included, however, a charge
for postage at the War-office, in consequence of calling out
the militia, of 5,9001., which he was afraid was an indica-
tion of the very large increase of business in that depart-
ment. 'Application had been made at the War-office for an
additional force to meet the pressure of business arising
from, embodying the militia, and therefore he was afraid
thrt the present apparent reduction in the expenses of the
War-office would be, next year, converted into an augmen-
tation. Upon several minor heads there was no very
great change. In the vote for the Royal Military Asylum,
there was some. small augmentation, arising chiefly from
- • _ _

(vv., an increase of the staff for the education of schoolmasters.
C, kltlyould be recollected that there had been some complaint
~..714f ttiliihpup?, when good conduct rewards were first esta-
k".-,_,
..,
‘'ord Howick, and augmented by himself (Mr.
V;,- ,51,,,_,/F! rt) in 1845, that sergeants were excluded from
inclifret • •
y-, r , " -:- on in those rewards. He confessed for
.e.,.:, -rv.1„7...4,61/2
.47 ught they had no title to share in those re-
r.,,
• e
that, as sergeants, they received adidtional
)741i
F. 4 e were circumstances, however, under which
41 17 hugti a:141 -ICexclusion pressed somewhat prejudicially on a
it°l-I°'lB body of men ; and he must say there was no
• body of men to whom the army owed so much as to its

sergeants, both in the formation ancr the discipline of its
regiments. (Hear, hear.) He therefore proposed to
increase, by a grant annually of 1,0001. until it
_ _

reached 2,0001., the sum that could be distributed for good
service rewards among non-commissioned officers. With
respect to the vote for half-pay general officers re-
duced, and widows of foreign officers, there was,
as there had been for some years past, a considerable di-
minution, though this year it was not so large as usual.
Although there was a considerable diminution in the half-

pay, there was an increase in the out-pensioners at Chelsea
of 8,9971., for which it was very difficult to account. It
was the first increase of that charge that had taken place
for some years, and he trusted it would be the last one.
Those were the principal heads of difference between the
present estimate and that of last year. His right honour-
able friend (Sir J. Graham), in moving the navy estimates
the other night, pointed out how great had been the dimi-
nution in the charge by which the country maintained that
force in the present times. But that was not peculiar to
the navy. Indeed, he (Mr. S. Herbert) thought in the
army he could show that a diminution had taken place to
a still greater extent. The War-office had been occupied
for a long succession of years by some of the most saga-
cious men who had ever shared in the administration of
public affairs, including Lord' Hardinge, Lord Howick,
Sir Johli Hobhouse, and Lord Panmure. Those were
men who bad devoted great care and attention to all the
details of the department over which they presided, and
they had especially met with great success in the efforts
they made, first, in increasing the comforts and well-being
of the soldier • and secondly, in reducing the expenditure
of that department. In 1835, which was always taken as
the pattern year for economy, the whole estimate was
5,907,782/. ; and in this year it was 6,025,0161., being an
apparent increase of 117,0001. odd. But from the latter
sum—that was, from the whole charge for the effective
and non-effective services—in order to institute a fair com-

parison between this year and 1835, those items in the esti•
mates ought to be deducted which, on the recommendation
of various military authorities, had been added to the esti-
mates since 1835. Then, comparing the two, he found
there had been additional charges placed upon the esti-
mates since 1835 amounting to 250,0001., in round num-
bers ; and therefore, if those were taken off, there would
be a decrease in the present year amounting to 137,0001.
odd. Then it was to be recollected that we had now about
21,000 more men than we had in 1835. It might be said,
in instituting that comparison, he was taking off items of
expenditure which it was impossible to avoid, and which
were necessary for the improvement and efficiency of the
army ; but he conk' assure the house that the increase
upon the estimate of 1835 had been to a great extent upon
the non-effective portion of it. Taking that into account,
and the sums voted for schools, for the new system of
prisons: for barrack libraries, and many other things intro-
duced for the benefit and comfort of the soldier, they came
to the result that in 1853 they were maintaining 21,000
more men than in 1835 for a less sum than they spent in
the maintenance of the number of men in that year.
thought he could show that that was not entirely effected
by the half-pay reduction, for, upon a comparison between
the two years he had mentioned, he found the cost for the
bearing of each man on the estimates had diminished since
1835 by 21. Us. Bd. Nor was it attributable to any. less
regard being now had for the comfort and well-being of the
men ; for he (Mr. S. Herbert) did not believe that the sol-
dier was at any time so well off as he was now. Whether it
was that the short service was beginning to tell, or whether
it was owing to the increased comforts which now ob-
tained among the troops, this much was certain, that the
recruiting, both for the militia and the army, had never
been more easy than now, nor had it ever before produced
a better class of recruits drawn from a better popilation.
(Cheers.) What had been the steps taken for the ad-
vantage of the soldier ? The stoppage of rations abroad
had been lowered. That stoppage had been at first pitched
too high—a lower rate of stoppage had been substituted,
which, was now universal throughout our colonies ; and he
believed it had given general satisfaction the men, without
occasioning any loss to the service. The good conduct
money, too, had been increased to 65,3001. a-year • and li-
braries had been established to a great extent. They had
150 barrack libraries, containing in the aggregate 117,000
volumes ; the men paid for admission to those libraries,
and at present there were 16,000 subscribers. By a late
arrangement the officers had been permitted to subscribe,
and to have the use of those libraries ; but as it was feared
that their presence there might operate as a restriction on
the men, that arrangement had been modified, so as to give
the latter a perfectly free access to their libraries. Then
there were the regimental schools, which were established
n 1846 ; and there he must say that he owed a great debt of
gratitude to his noble friend Lord Panmure, for the manner
in which he carried out those institutions. They originated
with himself (Mr. S. Herbert) just before he left office, and
they met with a good deal of prejudice at first ; but all
those difficulties had been removed, and so far from those
schools being objected to by the men, there was a great de-
sire shown by them to be put under the management of
schoolmasters properly trained. There were now a large
number of those schoolmasters who had passed their period
of probation, in addition to 58 masters who were now em-
ployed in the schools of the different regiments, and 16
assistant-masters. The recruits were required by a regu-
lation to attend the schools ; that was the only compulsory
attendance there was ; but it only lasted so long as their
drill continued, and it was found that many of the men
afterwards returned to the schools of their own accord.
He had the greatest confidence in those schools working
well. They had already contributed, among many other
circumstances, to that increased good conduct which was
now remarkable throughout all ranks of the army. (Hear,
hear.) He would just give, as another proof of the increas-
ing comfort and well-being of the men, an extract from
the returns, showing the amount of deposits in their sav-
ings' banks. The savings banks were established in 1844.
There were then 819 depositors, whose deposits amounted
14,894. In 1852 there were 9,447 depositors, and the de-
posits had reached to 111,9251. Again, he knew some
years ago the facilities given for the acquisition of know-
ledge were thought by some as likely to lead to a re-
laxation of discipline. There had been a great di-
• nlinution of punishment in the army simultaneously with
the introduction of the new system. The number of cor-
poral punishments in 1838 was 875 ; in 1843, 620; in 1846,
461; in 1849, 311; in 1850, 247—(hear, hear, hear) ;
and in 1851, 206. The return for 1852 was not yet
complete; but for three-quarters of the whole force 96 was
shown to have been the number of corporal punishments in-
the last year. Nor did he find that this change was
owing to any relaxing of the discipline among the men.
There had been an increase of imprisonments ; but the
question was, had there been an increase of offences, and was
there an increase in the persons tried before courts-martial ?
The returns of military imprisonments, comparing 1850 with
1851, showed the contrary ; it was true there was a slight
increase in the number of those imprisonments in 1852, as
compared with the preceding year, but that increase was
not greater in proportion than the increase in the effective
strength of the army last year. Then, again, they must
recollect that their object in imprisoning the soldier was
altogether different from that of punishing the civilian.
There was but one other point with respect to the well-
being of the army in general to which he would call the at-
tention of the committee. That was the health of the army.
He believed at no former period was the army so healthy
as it was at present. Some years ago there was great mor-
tality among the troops, especially in the colonies, from the
situation of their barracks in many places. Lord Howick
was at considerable pains to remedy that grievance, and was
to some extent suscessful. Taking Gibralter and the lonian
Islands, the mortality for the last year had been 12 7-10ths
' in a thousand, whilst the average there since 1846 had been
191-10th in a thousand. In the American colonies—always
favourable to health—rthe mortality of the last year had been
14 in a thousand; whilst the average of the preceding pe-
riod had been 15 in a thousand. Fourteen in a thousand
was as high a state of health as was enjoyed in Great
Britain. St. Helena, New South Wales, and Van
Diemen's Land were all very healthy colonies. The
average rate of mortality at the Cape of Good Hope
had been of course affected to some extent by the
Kafir war. In New Zealand the average was 12 in a
thousand ; and in Van Diemen's Land 9 in a thousand.
The mortality in the West Indies (exclusive of Jamaica),
up to March last was twenty-two in a thousand ; and in
Jamaica, owing to the prevalence of the yellow fever, it
was exactly double that rate. He did not believe, how-
ever, that there had been any instance where the yellow
fever had broken out among the troops before, in which
the mortality had been so small as on the late occasion.
At the Mauritius, the mortality was 22 in 1,000 against 43
in preceding years. At Hong Kong, which was one of the
most unhealthy of the stations, the mortality in the pre-
vious year, 74 in 1,000, had diminished in the past year,
to 44 in 1,000. The results for the past year, indeed,
showed a general improvement in every case. The accounts
from India, which he had received but that day, bore out
fully the statement of the hon. baronet the member for
Honiton, that the troops at Rangoon were not suffering in
health, and he found that the mortality had been under
four per cent. Throughout India, generally, there never
was a time when the troops were in a more healthy condi-
tion. (Hear.) He believed that this had been the result,
in a great degree, of the improvements made in the medi-
cal treatment and a great deal was undoubtedly due to the
improved habits of the men, and the diminution—still
. leaving, however, some room for improvement—of the
habits of excessive drinking, by which the constitutions of
the men were undermined and their health destroyed.
(Hear, hear, hear.) Having thus recapitulated the differ-
ent measures adopted in lett years 'by the Government for
' the purpose of improying the condition of the soldier, it
was now necessary that they should pay increased atten-
tion to the task of making the army as efficient as possible
for service in the field. (Hear, hear.) No doubt they
had been too remiss in this respect, because they had
chosen to use the army, to a degree far too great to be com-
patible with its efficiency, as a police force. The army had
been scattered in minute detachments throughout the
world. In Ireland alone there wero as many as 200 stations oc-
cupied by about 20,000 troops. In England and colonies the
same thing to a great extent occurred. It was not reason-
able to expect that troops could be fit for field duty when
they. scarcely ever had the opportunity of seeing even two
regiments assembled together. (Hear, hear.) Her Ma-
jesty's Government entertained a sanguine hope that they
would be able gradually to concentrate more troops in this
Gauntry, by withdrawing a portion of the army from those
colonies which had now obtained the right of self-govern-
ment, and, with that privilege, the duty of contributing
something to their own defence, so far as domestic enemies
were concerned. (Hear.) It was essentially necessary
that they should make arrangements for concentrating
more troops in this country. There was a great difference
in this respect between the army and navy. In war or
peace the navy led exactly the same sort of life. There
was no necessity for any additional preparation in the
navy, in the event of war. The navy carried its own bar-
racks and appointments, and, with the exception of firing
abetted guns at the enemy instead of the target, there was
no difference in the duties of a man-of-war between war
and peace. The army, unlike the navy, was broken up in
into small detachments, posted in barracks, and had not
the opportunity of exercising large bodies of men. These
wore defects which ought to be corrected. (Hear, hear.)
It was proposed, therefore, in the present estimate to take
a sum—which by inadvertence had been mis-stated—of
1,0001. for the establishment of stations where there could
be ball practice with the Minie rifles, to which non-cona-
issioned officers and men in certain proportions could be
drafted from the several regiments, in order to acquire the
habit of using these rifles 3,t different sights and distances,
having obtained which, they would go to their regiments,
and there impart the instruction which they had acquired,
so that there might be throughout the army one uni-
form system of target firing. Hear, hear.) It was also
proposed to form encampments in some parts of the
country, to which the regiments could repair for the pur-
pose of instruction. (Hear, hear.) He anticipated good
results from these measures, and believed that they
were arrangements calculated to give very general satis-
faction, and could be carried out Tat a very small expense.
In point of fact, the movements of the men to and from
the camp would be no more than the natural movement of
quarters every year, at no additional expense
change of
except the wear and tear of the tents and the increased
allowance to officers and men when in camp. With respect

to arms, Lord Hardinge had made great efforts to procure
the best arms which modern science could produce. That
noble lord had sent to America and to every continental
state and had caused the newest arms to be brought over
to this country, and had instituted numerous trials for the
purpose of testing their relative merits. The result of
these trials led Lord Hardinge to hope that he would be
able to produce a weapon lighter and more effectual than
the present musket, and carrying equally as fat, but lighter
than the Minie rifle, and with as correct aim and as great
efficiency. The army would then, he believed, be in a
state of great perfection and efficiency. (Hear, hear.)
This country must always, no doubt, possess an army nu-
merically small, but there was no reason why that army
should not be drilled and put in a state of the highest effi-
ciency, and made an instrument quite perfect to our hands,
as in other nations. (Hear, hear.) The United States, for
instance, kept a small standing army, but the weapons se-
lected for that army were those which required the highest
amount of training, and the greatest time for preparation,
in order to be used with efficiency. In the same manner
we had in this country a large artillery fOrce, and if our
army was small in number, the material of it was un-
doubtedly good. (Hear, hear.) We possessed Feat wil-
lingness and good conduct among the men, and, in fact, all
the necessary materials for making the most perfect army
in the world. The country had a right to expect that the
army to which it contributed so largely should be put in a
state of the most complete efficiency. (Hear, hear.) So
long as he had the honour of occupying the post in which he
was then placed, he should feel it his duty to give every
assistance in his power to such endeavours on the part of
the military boards. At the same time he felt convinced
that by keeping that vigilant watchfulness over the expen-
diture which it was the duty of the War-office to keep, and
keeping down as far as possible the burden of the dead
weight, which, if allowed to increase, could not fail to be
injurious, there was every reason to hope that the country
would see the British army in a state of higher efficiency
than it had ever yet been seen. (Hear, hear.) He trusted
the committee would excuse the length of the details into
which he had gone, and hoped that no difficulty or oppo-
sition would be made to the passing of the vote, which he
would•conclude by proposing. The right honourable gen-
tleman then proposed a vote of 102,283 men, for the
effective service of the army.
• Mr. HUME thanked the right honourable the Secretary-
at-War for the very clear and able statement which he had
made. (Hear, hear.) Anxious as he (Mr. Hume) had
always been to keep down the expenses, no person had
been more anxious than himself to see the character of the
troops improved, and their moral and social comforts in-
creased. He believed that no department of the public
service was under better management than the army at
the present moment. (Hear, hear.) He deprecated, how-
ever, any increase in the present establishment, and fully
concurred in the opinion expressed by Lord Aberdeen, in
1842, with respect to the large military establishments of
Europe, and the fallacy of the opinion that the best secu-
rity for peace was always to be prepared for war. The
abstraction of so large a number of persons from the pro-
ductive industry of this country was now beginning to be
a matter of serious import, and to no class was it of greater
moment than to the landed interest. Few persons ap-
peared to be aware of the actual state of our establish-
ments and the number of men taken away from the in-
dustry of the country. We had now in the regular army
155,000 men, pensioners, dockyard battalions, and yeo-
manry, 42,000 coast guard, Irish constabulary and police
in England 31,000, and the militia, enrolled last year,
65,000, making a total of 293,000 in arms, or ready to take
arms, drawn away from the productive industry of the coun-
try.swf
further
hnye
theye year rpo2w3w,
eOO 00
ru
tsmhioanr evc
have
The Government had the power of adding in the pre-
ethaalstmeogtaehikthes up 80,000 in the militia and
earrmnoyt
loofsrsetshearvne3stoB,looo2o,,mooeo4
in arms. All these were drawn away from the industry of
the country, and the expenses of their support saddled upon
the rest of the community. With respect to the pay of
both officers and men in the army, he did not think that
they were paid too much, but considered that the expenses
of the staff might be considerably reduced. A considerable
saving might also be effected by the union in one depart-
ment of the army and ordnance. It was calculated that
there were in Europe at the present moment 7,000,000 of
men capable of bearing arms, and that of these 4,000,000,
or more than one half, were in arms, and paid by the rest.
Let the house think of the double evil that such a system
created—the abstraction of such a number of able-bodied
' men on the one side, and the abstraction of the fruits of
the labour of others to maintain them on the other.
(Hear.) He would not, however, oppose the proposition,
but he would enter his protest against keeping up these
large establishments. He admitted the good government of
the army ' • he believed that its administration was as well
conducted as it was possible for an army to be ; and he
could assure the right hon. gentleman that he folly appre-
ciated the importance of the improvements he proposed,
and he would suggest to him the necessity of still further
carrying out those arrangements for the reduction of the
half-pay list which Lord Harding() commenced when he
was Secretary-at-War.
Colonel SI BTHORP said the hon. member talked of the
army !interfering with the industry of the country. Ho
could tell the hon. member what interfered with the in-
dustry of the country ; it was the infernal free-trade sys-
tem. (Laughter.) He was for encouraging native indus-
try he would not be like the free-traders, and prefer the
foreigner to his own countrymen. If the honourable
member for Montrose would talk of not interfering with
native industry, he would say to him- keep out the
foreigner—keep out the free-trade system. He (Colonel
Sibthorp) would go so far as to say that he would
expel every member out of the house that was in
favour of free trade. (Roars of laughter.) Look at the
mischief done by the Crystal Palace. (Renewed laughter.)
He could not go into the city of London without
being told—as he was told the other day by a tradesman,
in the neighbourhood of the Royal Exchange—" We can't
do anything, sir. Why? Because the foreigner steps in
and undersells us—cheap, but nasty." (Laughter, and
oh, oh.) He had offered, and he would continue to offer,
double, or even ten times, to an English tradesman for an
article which he produced, because he believed he was
honest—not like your foreigners, who would cheat every-
body, down to the people who were unfortunate enough to
let them lodgings. (Oh, oh, order, and question.) Then
he had heard of the Peace Society. The members of the
Peace Society would be the first, if there was any danger,
to call out for the military, whom they abused, to save
their mills, while they themselves would be found either
down in the cellar, or below the bed. (Laughter.) The
Peace Society were, in his opinion, both directly or indi-
rectly, the great encouragers of war; they carried fire and
fagot with them wherever they went ; and, for himself, he
would rather see the devil in his house than one of them.
(Roars of laughter.) He thanked the right hon. gentleman
for the able manner in which he had brought forward these
estimates ; and though he differed from right hon. gentle-
men opposite, yet they would always find in him not an
opponent, but a regular supporter on all questions that
would
contribute to the security, the welfare, and the dig-
nity of the country.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the question that 3,625,7831. be voted for the land
forces,
31r. HUME called attention to the vote for recruiting.
It appeared that 80,0001. was spent on that branch of the
service. It had been suggested, in the committee upstairs,
that a saving might be effected by committing that service
to the pensioners ; and Lord Panmure promised to consider
the subject. He wanted now to ask what steps had been
taken in consequence ?
Mr. S. HERBERT said Lord Panmure instituted an in-
quiry into the subject in several quarters, and the result of
the whole induced him to decline the alteration. The evi-
dence he (Mr. Herbert) had seen induCed him to concur in
Lord Paumure's decision, as it seemed to be clear that the
recruiting could not be effectually carried out in the way
proposed.
Vote agreed to.
On the question that 162,897/. be voted for the staff and
hospital departments,
Sir DE LACY EVANS called attention to the propriety
of instituting a professorship of military surgery in one of
the colleges London,instauteandd
inals toheiacoDllusgbelina,t ofE Edinburgh,
where
nature with
Sir George Ballingale had instituted a course of
lectures that were admitted on all hands to be eminently
thatn
beneficial. He also suggested that the museum of prepara-
tions of military diseases now at Fort Pitt, Chatham,
should be removed to London, as in their present position
they were all but unavailable to military students.
Mr. HERBERT said he had instituted inquiries
as
to
the cost of establishing the professorship s referred to by
the honourable and gallant officer ; and till these measures
leted he could not undertake to give an answer.
were comp ,
advantage to remove it to London, but
be of great
for it
With respect to the museum at Chatham, it would cer-
tainlyit was difficult to obtain a site or any of the public
Mr.
HUMS,
that the can-
teenEßßEßT said (as we understood),
offices, which were already every one of them filled.
In answer to a question from
Mr. H
that it was better for the soldi
er
s to get drin
within the barracks than to be k
military men
seen drunk about he streets.
system was still continued,_ as it was ,the opinion of
(Laughter.)
of the ordnance with the military department,'
ligation
The vote was agreed to.
After some remarks from Mr. HUME, tag
the conso-
On the vote of 98,464/.
Mr. HUME wished to knowlia, now that the colony wht e eno
h soldiers wer t
had ob-
Austra
withdrawn from for public departments,
tained self-government?
Mr. HERBERT said
lonies by the late Government,
into with the Australian co .
tenance of the troops
the colonies were top ity all the
mainexception of the cost of
that by an arrangement entered
stationed there, with the single
their arms.
agreed to.
Royal Military College, and a
A sum of 16,8881. for the_
al Military Asylum, were
sum of 18,0201. for the Roy
agreed to.
The vote was then
On the vote of 88,0001.
that young men of rank
Mr. HUME ventured to sa
yomething to be allowed to
should pay the Government s
sake of the appearance they would
enter this corps, for the
hir fine clothes and jackets.
for volunteer corps,
make at balls and reviews in
of the vote, and a preference
for regular troo
_ps. t Government would
Sir D. L. V E ANS hoped the present
t of volunteer
t to the estabhshmen
some encouragemen
give
He expressed his disapproval
N id it was a good plan to do one
Lord PALMERSTO do that
could. They
d to do that as well as they
thing at a time, an .
a militia force at present, and
were engaged in erg aniung any steps for
corps throughout the country.
corps until the militia was or-
the formation of volunteer
the people of this
ganised. He placed every rance on .
whenever their services were re-
country volunteering
corps,
however voluntary,
he thought it would be better to postpone
quired, some exense.
would be attended with
wrath the noble lord. They
Mr. HUME did not agree
defended at as little expense
.p as ossible.
wanted the country
to be aware that the militia was
The noble lord seemed not
but those volunteer
A vear which was taken from
s and obliged t em
costing the country 100,000 •-•• • h to continue the
the industrious classe
1 taxes. Why would not the
volunteers ? He thought
uldget these
noble lord try if he co
t the defence as well as to
to contribute o
every man bound lf Surrey and Middlesex re-
ticle taxation of the county.
fl men, let the people of thoso
• number of ri e
soap and other objectionab e
quired a certain
counties turn out an
with hearts and hands ready in
would then create a comes
ir country, and one which, in his
case of need to defend th
better than the paltry, miserable
opinion, would be muchof
_001•
d choose their own officers. They
corps at an expense 88
LL nderstood from a ret
urn laid
Secretary of State for the Home De-
on the table by the late
ber last, that in Kent and Sussex
so late as Decena
for the militia. He
partment,
tan nad been raised
not one-half the quo
ble they should have an amended re-
thought it very desire
Admiral Sir G. PECHE u
dais at the present moment. At
the actual state of the m
le were more afraid of the mi-
Brighton, he knew the peop
he French. (A laugh.)
turn. He hoped the noble lord would give information of
litia than they were oft
oN
RST said the state of the militia now
what it was in December.
was very different to
asked for the number of men raised
Sir G. PECHELL
Lord PALME
and the various quota.
Lord PALMERSTON said the numbers were not yet t