The Sun.
London, England, 1853-08-13 00:00:00

BILL.

This bill, as amended, was considered, and ordered
to be read a third time to-morrow.
COPIES OF SPECIFICATION REPEAL BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
CHANCERY SUITORS FURTHER RELIEF
BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
TRANSPORTATION BILL.

On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Mr. S. WORTLEY said it appeared to him that this
bill provided a very good substitute for transportation.
Under the old system there was great uncertainty as to
the extent of punishment that was really inflicted on
transported criminals. Judges often sentenced criminals
to various periods of transportation without being able to
tell what the ultimate punishment would be, and he
would suggest that under the new system all this uncer-
tainty would be removed. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. KEATING thought the clauses which gave
power to the Secretary of State to grant tickets of
leave required further consideration. He admitted
the importance of reforming the criminal, but refor-
mation was not the only object of punishment. There
was the other equally important object of deterring
others from the commision of crime, and he felt that
this bill was open to objection, because it gave the Secre-
tary of State power to revise every sentence which was
passed by the judges of the land. It was altogether a
new feature in our criminal jurisprudence, and Parlia-
ment ought to give the subject that consideration which
its importance demanded. He would, therefore, sug-
gest that these clauses should be left for future delibera-
tion

Lord PALMERSTON was not surprised that hon.
gentlemen should be struck with the novelty of the
arrangement proposed by the bill, but he could
assure the honourable and learned gentleman that
it had received the fullest consideration on the part
of her Majesty's Government. He believed that the
bill provided a punishment which, while it would have a
reformatory influence on the criminal himself, would, at
the same time, act as an example in deterring others from
falling into criminal courses. The principle was by no
means new, while as for the objection of the hon. and
learned gentleman that the bill would increase the power
of the Secretary of State, he could assure him that
one of the principal duties of the Secretary of State
at the present time was that of revising the sentences
passed upon criminals. He trusted, therefore, that the
bill would be allowed to pass as it stood; and if it failed,
there would be no difficulty next session in bringing in
another bill to alter and amend this one. (Hear.)
Mr. WALPOLE entirely concurred in the existing
system of punishment, and thought they ought to be ex-
ceedingly cautious how they altered. At all events, he
hoped there would be no change made in the time that
was devoted to solitary confinement, which, hitherto com-
bined by the system ofemployments, had worked most bene-
ficially in reforming the criminal. It was a case of necessity
that transportation should be abolished, and he cer-
tainly preferred the plan of this bill to resorting to a
system of penal settlements such as these, as they had
recently seen in Norfolk Island and Van Diemen's
Land. He was decidedly opposed to distant penal
settlements, but he thought they could judiciously
establish some penal settlements in the Channel Islands
on the coast, or nearer home.
Mr. SPOONER agreed with the objections which had
braeiesned.urge this dby the hon. and learned gentleman who had
discussion. He thought no sufficient answer
had been
bill enabling
the Home to them by the noble lord at the head of
should be established Department. He objected to that part of the
piadcLsiimminals to return to society upon tickets
of leaMve, e
oittltrthhantmseo.me general settlement
found fault with the system of
qualified servitude which
the
bill would establish, and
which he contended would
be based on a principle un-
known to this constitution.
Mr. BARROW was not so surprised as some hon.
members appeared to be at the clausesa under considera-
tion,osed by the Go proposed by the
vernm
elnnt, thehe pmreastetnert
wmaesasiunrsee,
reasonhto four
tthere
jump being only from two years' imprisonment
years' penal servitude. He saw no
should be any such gap at all ; but, on the contrary,
thought the measure would be more efficient if itrarY,
pro-
vided that a short term of penal servitude might b
inflicted. He therefore proposed in the 12th clause to
leave out the word "four," and insert the word " two."
By this alteration, from two to ten years of penal semi.
tude might be inflicted, instead of the limits being four
and ten years.
Mr. T. CHAMBERS, adverting to the subject which
had been discussed in the earlier part of this debate,
thought that the objections against the ticket of leave
clause of the bill were seducible to two heads ; first,
that they introduced a new system, and secondly, that
the system so introduced was a vicious one. If a man
were returned to the world determined and hardened in
his wickedness, and the law had no control over him, he
must proceed to commit fresh crimes before the hands
justice could overtake him. Under this bill, if ouch an

individual ' obtained a conditional pardon he might,
immediately on his disposition showing itself, be brought
back to punishment. As to the possible evils in regard •
to a person in a state of qualified freedom entering into
engagements or contracting marriage, that was undoubt-
edly a drawback in the scheme, but it was no greater
than what attended all human efforts. The question
was, how to effect the objects of the measure with the
least possible drawback, and he believed that was done
by the bill before them.
Mr. NEWDEGATE did not view the abolition of
transportation with pleasure. So late as 1847 it had
been approved by fifteen English and by most of the
Irish judges. It was true that the discovery of gold in-
terfered with transportation to Australia, but that ought
not to affect the punishment itself. To say that it was
a bad system contradicted the evidence of one's own
senses. Had not the great colonies in Australia and
Van Diemen's Land their rise in the system ? Reason
showed that no punishment could have a better effect on
a criminal. No man could become reformed so long as
he remained near to the scene of his crimes. Some very
intelligent Americans with whom he had conversed on
this subject had expressed their regret that, from its
situation as a continent, America could not rid itself of
its criminal population as England had done. This mea-
sure would deprive England entirely of its natural ad-
vantages in this respect, and thus we were voluntarily
depriving ourselves of that which another nation would
most gladly possess.
Mr. EWART thought the reformation of criminals
was to be effected rather by dispersing than congregating
them. If this bill were carried it would entail the ne-
cessity of a surveillance being exercised similar to that
of the Paris police. He should hope that when these
criminals had been reformed as far as they could be in
this country, the colonies would no longer have that ex-
treme repugnance to receive them that they had now.
- -

Mr. HUM E observed that we had arrived at that state
that the colonies would no longer receive the convicts,
and Government must do the best they could with them.
He thought the house ought not to throw difficulties in
their way.
Sir 3. PAKINGTON expressed his regret that the
suggestions he made the other night with reference to
extending the period of transportation had not been
adopted. He thought the maximum of eight years'
penal servitude as a substitute for fifteen years' transpor-
tation was too short. He thought also that it should
rest with the court that passed the sentence, rather than
with the Government, whether a prisoner was to be
transported. Either the courts must abstain from sen-
tencing to transportation, or they should know whether
the prisoner was to be transported. It was desirable
that both the court and the prisoner should know what
a sentence really meant.
The bill was then read a third time and passed.
CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS.

Mr. WALPOLE moved the second reading of the
Corrupt Practices at Elections Bill, not with the inten-
tion of pressing it dnring the present session, but with
a view to elicit the opinions of the house upon its pro-
visions. His object was to simplify the law, and to pro-
vide against intimidation and undue influence on the
voter. He proposed to repeal the existing statues, and
in re-enacting them to lay down specifically the mean-
ing and full extent of the offences intended to be put an
end to. Under the head of bribery, the person bribing
would be included as well as the person bribed, and in
the case of treating the party treating would be included
as well as the recipient of the treat. Bribery would
comprise direct or indirect offers of a reward for a vote,
and treating would have reference to treat or drink
given for a corrupt purpose. Intimidation would include
all attempts to unduly influence an elector. A declara-
tion would also be required from a candidate that he was
not aware of any act of bribery or treating, or of the
exercise of any undue influence. With respect to elec-
tion committees facilities would be given for reaching
the guilty parties. Before the institution of any inquiry
the parties objecting to the return would be required
to give in a list of persons alleged to be guilty of
any of the offences enumerated by the act ; and the
committee would be invested with the power to investi-
gate before the question of agency was mooted. The
seat would be voided, even though the offence might not
be brought home to the sitting member, but without in-
validating his right to stand again. When the offence
was brought home to him, however, he should, as at
present be incapacitated from sitting again during the
then Parliament. He thought the existing penalties so
high as to militate against their enforcement, and he
therefore proposed to reduce the penalty to 501., and,
should the house decline to prosecute, it would be open
to any one else to do so. He further proposed, that
where a conviction was obtained against the voter, he
should be disfranchised for seven years ; and when
against a candidate, disqualification to, sit in Parliament
for a similar period. Parties thus convicted would have
their names enrolled in a book, to be kept under the
orders of the Speaker, but to be open to the public.
Any agents, not being electors, guilty of these offences,
should be liable to imprisonment for any period not ex-
ceeding six months.
Mr. HUME said the bill was one that would require
very careful consideration. He hoped that it would be
referred to a select committee. He agreed as to the
necessity of preventing the disgraceful practises of bri-
bery and intimidation. The only point on which he
differed from the right hon. gentleman was as to the
period fur which the voters should be deprived of their
franchise. He wished to see the house a real represen-
tation of the people, who should express their opinions
free from any influence whatever. In the case of
offences he would hold the candidate, the agent, and
the voter equally guilty. He would disfranchise voters
receiving bribes for ten years ; he would disfranchise
agents entirely.
Mr. WALPOLE suggested that there might be cases
where the agents were not voters. In that case it might
be necessary to resort to imprisonment.
Mr. HUME concurred in the propriety of this. Can-
didates guilty of bribery he would disqualify from sitting
for two Parliaments. He believed this would be a

radical cure. The offence was one against Parliament
and the nation, and the prosecutions ought therefore to
be conducted at the public expense. The county courts
would be the most cheap and speedy tribunals. He be-
bel►eved that this bill would lay the foundation of an
inquiry which must lead to an important change.
Col. SIBTHORP said be had witnessed many bills
brought in pretending to secure the purity of elections,
but none founded on sound principles. It had been in-
sinuated that he only sat in that house by purchasing
his seat. (Laughter.) He denied this,- and asserted
that neither he nor any of his family had ever received
any favour from a Government. It could not therefore
be said that he was not an independent member.
(Laughter.) Looking at the provisions of this bill,
and the declarations it contained, he would ask how it
would affect the Treasury Bench ? For his own part he
had never been guilty of bribery, but now it seemed an
order for a new coat, o4air of boots to a voter, might
subject him to punishment. (Laughter.) The effect of
the bill would be to produce an entire alienation be-
tween man and man. It might do very well for a can-
didate coming down from the clouds, who never saw the
city of Lincoln. (Great laughter) He might be placed
in a very different situation from such a man as that,
owing to the claims that were made upon him—for he
considered them claims. He hoped his right hon. friend
would consider these matters. He was surprised that
he should propose the second reading of such a bill,
thereby pledging the house to its principles at the very
close of the session. This was not fair towards mem-
bers generally or their constituents. He should most
unquestionably oppose the second reading. He sup-
posed that the offer of a glass of wine to a friend, or a
cup of coffee, would now be considered treating, by this
pure House of Commons, or perhaps bribery.
Mr. BRADY—So it is.

Col. SIBTHORP—Then all I have to say is, I shall
do it. (Great laughter.) The gallant colonel proceeded
to contend that the bill was one of an inquisitorial cha-
racter ; but he would apply to it the classical maxim,
Ex niltilo nihil fit,—(laughter)--or rather he would say,
it was like suing a beggar and catching a louse. (Great
laughter.) Some hon. members who were great sticklers
for the purity of that house, did not consider it all im-
pure to get a good place for a relation. He was asto-
nished that his right hon. friend should have proposed
such a bill ; in many parts it was unintelligible, in others
unadvisable. He was certain it would be condemned by
the constituencies generally.
The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
be committed on that day fortnight.
VACCINATION EXTENSION BILL.

The house went into committee on this bill, Mr.
Wilson in the chair.

Mr. BRADY moved an amendment on clause 1, to
substitute for the words " poor law board," the words
"registrar-general of deaths and births."
Sir J. PAKINGTON objected to the amendment,
and said he bad already considerably altered the details
of the bill. He might as well say that he had received
letters from all parts of the country expressing satisfac-
tion with the measure and the necessity for its passing.
After some discussion the amendment was negatived
and the clause agreed to.
Clauses 2,3, 4, and 5 were also agreed to after sonic
discussion, and several objections taken by Mr. BRADY.
On clause 6,

Mr. BRADY, regretting his solitary position, in
fighting this bill on behalf the medical profession, said
that he would nevertheless struggle to the last ; and he
begged to move in this clause that the fee be, not is. 6d.,
but 2s. 6d.
The amendment was rejected.
Mr. W. A. WILKINSON said that he was the son
grandson, nephew, and uncle of medical men ; but he
did consider that this fighting about their fees reduced
them to the level of cabmen, (Laughter.)
The remaining clauses were agreed to, and the bill
was reported.
PETTY SESSIONS (IRELAND) BILL.

Mr. F. FRENCH moved the discharge of the order
for the second reading of this bill.
Agreed to. Order discharged accordingly.
SUMMARY JURISDICTION (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
MILITIA PAY BILL.

thiTrdhisrebai(lili,nags. amended, was considered, and fixed for
PASSENGERS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
Read a third time and passed.
COAL—CITY OF LONDON.
On the motion of Mr. HADFIELD (for Mr. Duncombe)
a return was order of the amount collected by way of
toll by the corporation of the City of London, or by
their lessees on account of the said toll, on the carte
and waggons of non-freemen, from the Ist day of
January, 1852, to the present time, together with the
sums paid by such lessees to the corporation, and tho
purposes to which the same is applied.
The house then adjourned to this day.

PAIR.—Sir H. Ferguson Davie T3art., has paired f,sr
the remainder of the seaeion with Sir jOllll Duckwort 13?
Bart.