The Sun.
London, England, 1854-02-15 00:00:00

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
Their lordships met at five o'clock. There was a
rather full attendance of peers, and a considerable num-
oer of ladies in the Peeresses' gallery.
Lord BROUGHAM was among the earlier arrivals, and
vas cordially greeted by the Earl of Aberdeen and
other noble lords, on his return from France.
ASSESSED TAXES ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE moved the third reading
of the above bill.
The bill was then read a third time and passed.
THE EASTERN QUESTION.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE then rose and said—l
rise to call your lordships' attention to the motion of which
I have given notice, and in doing so I feel it necessary to
notice some observations which fell from the noble earl
(the Earl of Aberdeen) on a former occasion. Let me, how-
ever, assure your lordships that no person is more anxious
than I am at all times to preserve peace, if that object can
be attained consistently with the interests, and still more
so with the honour of this country ; and any ground of
quarrel which I may have with her Majesty's Government
is not that they have not earlier engaged us in war, but
that they have adopted—l doubt not with the sincere be-
lief In the soundness of their policy—measures which ne-
cessarily involved us in hostilities, and are the cause of our
being, if not actually, yet on the brink of being engaged
iu a great war. I cannot also avoid saying that Ido not
see in their conduct those signs of vigour and determina-
tion of purpose by the display of which in the first instance
they might have avoided the predicament in which we are
at present placed, and by which alone they will be able
now to preserve peace or bring a war to a satisfactory and
early conclusion. I can assure your lordships that lam
not going into a miuute and detailed review of the papers
which have been laid before you. Let me, however, in
passing, say that they are full of matter of the deepest in-
terest, and that they are for the most part written with
great ability. I shall, indeed, very shortly refer to some
passages in them in support of the view which I have
from the first taken of these transactions ; but, as I
have already said, I will not detain your lordships
with any detailed examination of their contents. I have
Already said, and having examined the blue books be-
fore us, I say again, that the great error committed by
her Majesty's Government was the course they took
when, having had a full report made to them of the
warlike preparations of Russia, and of the menacing atti-
tude which she had assumed, and having received infor-
mation of the communications made by Prince Alenschi-
coff, which were notorious throughout Europe, they were
invited by the French Government to consider these facts,
rued to come to a common understanding as to what should
be the course of the two powers on the occurrence of the
events that were naturally to be expected. I entirely con-
cur with the course taken by her Majesty's Government
with regard to the origin of this unhappy affair. I think
that we had nothing to do with the question of the holy
•elaces, as it is called. I think that that Lord J. Russell's
lespatches upon that subject in the month of January are
admirable. They simply instruct our agent that with that
inestion we have, and will have, nothing to do. But on
he 2ith of January, the communication from the French
4uvernment, to which I have just referred, was received
ay her Majesty's Government ; and on the 29th of January
as your lordships will see by the papers), Lord John Rus-
,ell answered that her Majesty's Government agreed in the.
view taken by the French Government of the gravity of
he circumstances which they had brought to their notice,
hat they thought it desirable that a common understand-
ng between the great Powers should be arrived at, and
hat " he will immediately take into consideration what
;traps will be necessary for that purpose." Now having
:,hus, on the part of her Majesty's Government, stated and
pronneeel that steps should be immediately considered in
aeler that a common understanding should be arrived at,
it appears almost incredible that up to this moment no
each understanding, as far as wo are informed, has been
come to with respect to any eveneuality that has arisen or
which might arise. I think that that was a great mistake,
and it seems to me, as far as we are informed, we are in a
similar position now to that in which we were placed then.
And then came all those events which are connected with
Prince Menschikoff's mission. I have only to remind the
house, that immediately on his arrival at Constantinople he
demanded the concession of a convention which struck at
the independence of the Sultan and his Government. And
I say that then, again, as is shown by these papers, a great
mistake was made by our Government, both iu the conduct
they adopted, and much more in the language they used
upon that occasion—(hear, hear, from the Earl of Malmes-
bury). My lords, you cannot have failed to observe that
Colonel Rose did not demand that the fleet should enter
the Dardanelles, that it should come to Constantinople,
that it should commit any infraction of any treaty, or as- ,
sumo a menacing attitude ; but merely that the admiral
should bring the fleet to the Bay of Vourla, situated near
the harbour of Smyrna, a little earlier than he had in-
tended. This Bay of Vourla, I need hardly tell your lord-
ships, is a frequent station for ships of war, and in anchor-
ing there our fleet could not be supposed to have eny in-
tention either of menacing Russia or supporting Turkey.
All that would have been done would be that it would
have been there a little nearer to the scene of operations
had its interposition been required. I think that this was
e very wise suggestion which Colonel Rose gave her Ma-
jesty's Ministers, but they chose to disregard his advice,
and justified the admiral for not making any approach to
Constantinople. Now that has been justified by the noble
earl at the head of the Government on three ground I
s.
understand his reasons to be that, in the first place, we
had received such assurances from the Russian Government
as we could rely upon implicitly, and that, on that account,
we apprehended no danger. My lords, the second reason
given by the noble earl is, I venture to say, nearly the
most extraordinary that was ever uttered by a Prime Mi-
nister in a British senate—that, forsooth, if we had assumed
anything approaching to an attitude of menace, that if we
had shown a determination to defend Turkey, the Emperor
of Russia would at once have proceeded to Constantinople.
My lords, I have never heard such a preposterous notion.
(Hear, hear.) How, let me ask, was the Emperor of Rus-
sia to perform this great feat? Could he have done it by
his ships when the English and French fleets were there to
support the Turks? No ; but I understand it was his
armies which were to march upon Constantinople. Why'
if that was really imagined by the noble earl, I venture to
say that the state of ignorance in which her Majesty's Go-
vernment are with regard to what the French call the
mobilisation of the army is truly deplorable. It is noto-
rious that of all the armies in Europe that is the army,
which, however well organised itanay he in some respects
—however powerful it may be in defence—however for-
midable in the field of battle—and, indeed, however well
disciplined, in some respects, is the worst organised army
belonging to any civilised nation for moving, and in rela-
tion to the commissariat and other arrangements which
the movement of a great army requires. (Hear.) That is
A notorious fact. But the other reason given by the noble
eail was the assurances which had been received from
Russia; and here I cannot help avowing, that until I read
these papers I could not bring myself to believe that if a
straightforward question had been put to the Russian Go-
vernment, on the obje .t of Prince Menschikofl's mission,
it would not have been answered in an equally straight-
forward manner. But lam bound to say that I was de-
ceived. It does appear that Sir George Seymour did upon
one occasion put a question to the Chancellor of the Rus-
sian Empire, as to whether Prince Menschikoff had, or had
not, any ulterior instructions or demands to snake beyond
that question of the holy places which had been before
under discussion; and the answer he received was such as
would satisfy any man of Lotionr—any gentleman—(hear)
—that the Russian Government did not entertain any such
intentions. But if the Government rely upon that despatch
alone, to which 1 have alluded, I must observe that that
did not reach this country till the 4th of April, whereas
about 10 days previously, on the 23d of March, the noble
earl at the head of the Foreign-office had written to
Colonel Rose, informing him that they did not think it
was necessary to call up the fleets. But 1 do not lay any
stress upon what may appear a little inconsistency, be-
cause there are in these papers references made to personal
interviews and conversations which are not given in detail,
and therefore I doubt not that the assurances which were
received were such as very naturally to justify our govern-
ment in thinking that there was no danger from Russian
power, and that they were fully warranted in believing the
assurances that they received. Assurances, however, wl
go a certain way, but only a certain way; and against these
assurances were circumstances calculated to have led to is
different conclusion ; and most admirably does Col. Rose
state that, when he says thatPrinceMenschikoff's promises
and assurances are very fair but that the facts contradict
him, and upon that he justifys the demand he makes for
bringing up the fleets. Now see what was the consequence
not only of their conduct -for I am ready to admit that it
might be justified--but of the language they used. Not
content with withholding our fleet from our minister, her
Majesty's government expressed openly at that time the
greatest alarm and reprehension of the conduct of the French
Court in sending their fleet. Not even content with that,
they wrote a despatch to St. Petersburgh, to be communi-
cated to the Russian Government, which I doubt not filled
that Court and Cabinet with joy and delight. It is noto-
rious to every man who has attended for any time to the
march of events, in what is termed the Eastern question,
and to the policy of Russia, that for the last 24 years it has
been the object of that abinet to excite differences be-
tween France and England, and more especially to excite
differences between those two powers on questions relating
to Turkey. This has been their constant aim; and of course
great was their joy when they perceived that her Majesty's
Minister had done for them voluntarily what they had
been in vain striving to do for a long time. I have
mentioned this to demonstrate the soundness of the opi-
nion which I have expressed upon the policy of our
Government : and I will now trouble your lordships
with a few extracts from the papers, in order to show
the justice of the view I take upon this question. I
cannot refrain from reading a despatch, dated St. Peters-
burg, April 7, addressed by Count Nesselrode to Baron
Brunow, and by him subsequently read to her Majesty's
Ministers. It certainly shows in a striking manner the
march of the Russian mind in the whole of this transac-
tion. It says : " The Emperor desires you, M. le Baron,
to thank Lord Aberdeen and Lord Clarendon very parti-
cularly, in his name, for the salutary impulse which they I
have recently given to the decisions of the British Cabinet.
The former has on this occasion shown us a now proof of
coefidence of which our august matter is highly sensible."
How happy must the noble earl have beet, to receive those
assurances. (Hear, bear, and a ls ugh.) He told us—
having heard this—the other night, that of all the men
who had ever, shown acs imony, and severity, and bitter-
ness, in opposing the Russian Government, or who had writ-
ten and spoksia with the utmost force against the Russian

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EUROPEAN COURTS.
ENDLESS embassies and fruitless negotiations
have occupied the Courts of Europe fir some time. Whether
th c nstpilation of the "Great Bear" is an unlucky ODC, we mug
lea“, for the consideration of all oh servers ; but the soundest po
has been pursued ay the uatrons of the estahhshments of E. MOSES
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cedented magnificence and economy. The war of elen milts is totall
subdued by the attire manufacture I by E. MOSES and Sox, and a'
the advantages of a conillete vctory are secured by an artistic fit
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As ambassadors to the Court of Fashion, E. MOSES and SON ar,
the most successful negotiators which the commercial world ha
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alsehood of " Being connected with their Establishment," or "
he same concern," has been resorted to in many instances, and fo.
bvlons reasons, they beg to state that they have
NO CONNEXION WITH ANT OTHER HOUSE IN OR OUT OF LONDON,
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.t 4, 85, and 86, Aldgate, opposite the Church, all communicating.
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The Establishments are closed from sunset on Fridays to sunset
on Saturdays, when business is resumed till 12 o'clock. "
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Ins full lists of prices, contain-
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Ici l'on parle Francais.
tiler arrlcht man Depta,h.

Qui si parla Italian.
Aciu 4 so habla Espano

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Emperor and his policy, that he was that man. The noble hostile intentions towards her. (Hear, hear.) We should
earl then animadverted upon the treaty of Adrianople, not have been ashamed to say we would support the jute-
and revived the circumstances which attended the then grity and independence of the Turkish empire, and that
success of Russia against Turkey. My lords, every sane that integrity and independence had been violated.
man knows that if we and the other European Powers had (Hear.) It was declared by the noble lord the Secretary
held up our finger at that time to support Turkey, or that of State for Foreign Affairs that the restoration of the
if the Sultan had known the condition of the Russian army Principalities was a sine qud neon, and yet that military
at that time, that that army must have been totally anni- occupation had become a complete incorporation of those
hilated. We know, in fact, that that conquest was at- provinces into part of the Russian empire. (Hear, hear.)
tained as much by the influence of Russian gold as of We were told that explanations were to be demanded on
Russian arms. But the noble earl tells us that he animad- the subject. Explanations demanded ! When we are told
verted severely on the treaty of Adrianople ; and yet it that in Parliament we think that something will come of
appears that the Emperor of Russia had so entirely for- those explanations. lam sorry tobe brought back to a period
gotten the past conduct of the noble earl as to state that I have passed over, or to trouble your lordships with any
he received this as a new proof of that confidence which more reference to it, but I cannot refrain from it. I will turn
he felt that the noble earl had always reposed in him. to the passage in Sir Geo. Seymour's despatch of the 2d of
(Hear, hear.) The Count Nesselrode pays a much milder I August, where he gives an account of the explanations he
compliment to my. noble friend the Secretary of State ‘ demanded, and the answer he received. (Hear, hear.) Why,
for Foreign Affairs ; for he only said—" The latter, he was treated as you would treat a whining fool. (Hear.)
with whom our relations have hardly yet commenced, 'lt was disgraceful to be so treated, and to submit to that
thus enters upon them under auspices which justify us treatment. (Hear, hear.) When he asks when the Rus-
in hoping that they will be of the most satisfactory sian troops are to leave the principalities, it is said, Oh,
nature." Now, to turn to the more serious part of this don't mention it ' • all these things will come of course,
despatch—not but that these personal matters are import. they have no explanation to give ; and the fact is, that the
ant when dealing with such a subject—the Russian Chan- real answer of Count Nesselrode is a threat if you ask any-
cellor proceeds: —" Nothing would be more to be regretted thing about demanding that explanation, and the posses-
than to see the two great maritime Powers combining to- sion of the principalities wascontinuedindefinitely. (Hear,
gether, were it but for a moment, and in appearance rather hear.) You have undergone the indignity of receiving
than in fact, upon the Eastern question as it now stands." false representations and promises from the Russian Minis-
[That is, while Prince Menschikoff's demands were under ter, and you made a very feeble remonstrance ; you now
consideration.] " Although their views in this respect ask for the explanation of the violation of a treaty to
differ in reality toto ado, nevertheless, as the European which you are a party, and you are told yon had better
public is by no means competent to draw the distinction, not mention it. (Hear, hear.) My noble friend the Secre-
their ostensible identity could not fail to represent them tary of State for Foreign Affairs very ably in his despatch
under the aspect of an intimate alliance." Exactly what I referred to Sinope, and instructed Sir George Seymour to
say. I repeat that this, which Count Nesselrode depre- notify the entrance of the ships into the Black Sea. There
cater, is the attitude that you should have assumed, and is a paragraph in the despatch to this effect—that the Rus-
indeed adopted in reality. Now let me pray your lord- sian admiral knew perfectly well the instructions that had
ships' attention to another passage in the despatch : been given to our admiral—that he knew very well the
" The attitude of England will suffice to neutralise what, communication that had been made by the British Govern-
on the part of the French or Turks, if the lattershould feel meat to the Russian Government respecting our intended
encouraged by the presence of the French fleet, might em- protection of the Turkish territory ; and therefore my
barrass, or retard too long the favourable solution of the noble friend very wisely and properly observed, that when
question in dispute." A favourable solution, indeed ! In the Russian Admiral went into the Bay of Sinope and de-
favour of whom? What was the question in dispute? It stroyed those ships, he did not alone attack the Turkish
was whether the Emperor of Russia shotild acquire a joint territory and the Turkish flag, but at the same time corn-
sovereignty over a great part of the Turkish Empire. The milted an insult and aggression against the British and
favourable solution would have been a giving in to these French flags. (Hear.) These things having occurred, what
claims. That was the solution which your Minister, al- necessity was there to tell Count Nesselrode that we went
though he was not instructed on the question, yet knowing into the Black Sea with no hostile intention ? It was
naturally what must be the policy of this country and of not accurate in point of fact, and was unbecoming under
this Government, of course resisted, to the utmost of his the circumstances in which we were placed. (Hear, hear.)
power, when he found that it was pursued by Prince Men- We are not to wonder, when such language was held, that
schikoff. I say that this despatch shows you as clearly as the entrance of the ships into the Black Sea had no effect
possible, if you wanted proof, that it was the separation (Hear, hear.) You are defied in the Black Sea, and treated
of France and England at that moment—proclaimed as with contumely in your negotiations. (Hear, hear.) I
it was by the language used at St. Petersburg—that venture to say that the noble earl 4 the head of the Go-
gave Prince Menschikoff courage, and decided him to vernment caa show me no case at all s.nalagous in which
proceed in those demands which have led to this unfor- the events that have lately occured have taken place, and
tunate state of war. When the fleets were sent for, in which the Minister of the Crown has failed to come to
Prince Menschikoff withdrew his demand ; but the Parliament with a clear exposition of the case, and de-
Turkish Minister tells Colonel Rose that they did not mand, if not the advice of Parliament, at least the assent
know what he asked, "We do not know," said they, of Parliament, to the course they intended to pursue.
" what he is about ; one day he endeavours to cajole us (Hear, hear.) Let me not be referred to the Speech we
by promises of the aid and support that Russia can give us have heard from the Throne on the opening day of the res-
in any event, and another day he endeavours to terrify us sion. Things are now very different from what they were
with menaces of his imperial master's vengeance. But when her Majesty delivered her most gracious Speech. In
some design he certainly appears to have against the hide- that Speech we were informed by her Majesty that she re-
pendence and honour of the country." Prince Menschikoff gretted that the differences between Russia and Turkey
thus obtained time to have recourse to his own Govern- had not been settled, and that a state of warfare had en-
ment for fresh instructions and stating the impediments sued. It was then stated that her Majesty's endeavours,
that he met with And it is perfectly clear that he availed in concert with her allies, to put an end to that state of
himself of this opportunity. The attitude assumed by things was unremitting, and they were informed that they
England and praised by Count Nesselrode had told at St. would be continued. But that is not the case now ; the
Petersburg ; the instructions issued were in conformity negotiations then referred to are at an end. (Hear.) The
with the impression thus formed, and it was when Prince noble earl at the head of the Government himself told us
Menschikoff received those further instructions that he on Friday that we have no negotiation going on now for
made these totally inadmissible demands. Now, see in the restoration of peace, and we have broken up our diplo-
what a position you put your Minister at the Court of Con- matic relations with Russia—a great fact in itself, seldom
stantinople. When Lord Stratford de Redcliffe went to be passed over without a communication from the
there, he found that his instructions were entirely founded Crown to Parliament. We have our fleet in the Black
in error. He found himself without any support what Sea, and they have been ordered to sweep the Russian
ever when these monstrous propositions were made by ships from that sea into their ports; it is rumoured in the
Prince hlenschikoff. Now, having mentioned that noble papers, and I believe truly, that we are preparing a great
lord, lam sure that I shall not be accused of any partially fleet (I hope it will be a great fleet) to sail to the Baltic.
to him, either from the relationship in which I have the (Hear, hear.) We have at this moment under orders for
honour to stand towards him, or from any other circum- foreign service—well understood to mean for active war-
stance, if I express very briefly my great admiration of fare—a considerable body (I hope it will be a very consi-
the ability which he has displayed. It is wonderful how derable body) of her Majesty's forces—(hear)—but at no pe-
he has succeeded as he has done. He had against him of riod have preparations been made for war, at no time has
course, the Russian Minister and the whole Russian party such an important event as the cessation of our relations
in the Divan, assisted by Russian gold, as the Russian with so great a power as Russia taken place, without the
party and Minister always is. He had to keep up the Minister of the Crown making a communication to Perlin-
courage of the Turks on the onehand, while he was unable ment ; and I regret that we are not now discussing this
to promise them any support on the other. Further than matter on a motion originated by the Minister, instead of
that, as matters advanced he had still further to impress taking part in a discussion brought on by so humble an
upon them the necessity of fortitude and at the same time individual as I am. We may be told that this matter will
of patience' for he could not call into activity what is be discussed in the other house of Parliament, when the
called the Turkish party at Constantinople, because navy estimates come on ; but that is not the proper way to
they were for immediate war, and Lord Clarendon's in- take the sense of Parliament on the entire of this great
structions were naturally to repress all hasty and warlike subject; and in regard to this house and all the great in-
demonstrations at that particular time. I do not think stitutions of the country, it is not proper to leave the dis-
that you can imagine our ambassadorbeing placed in more cussion upon this question to depend on a debate brought
embarrassing and difficult circumstances, and coming out on in supply in the House of Commons. But more than
of them with the greatest honour to himself. Well, then that, we have contracted new engagements, I know not of
I say that having seen what was the effect of the language what character, but we have contracted new engagements
held as to France and as to our separation from France undoubtedly, respecting which I think we ought to have
Prince Menschikoff retired from Constantinople. That was some information. I know not if those engagements be
a time when it would well have become the noble earl to such as ought immediately to be embodied in an official
have called his Cabinet together andto have remindedthem document. I know not whether there have been conven-
of the promises given by Russia on the 29th January, and tions or protocols, but we have embarked in a great under-
to have arrived at a common understanding with France ; taking, din concert with other powers, and those under-
at least as to the eventuality immediately impending—l takings ought not to have been embarked in without a de-
mean the occupation of the principalities. I will not detain finite object, and some explanation of them. I want to
your lordships by going into details, but r must refer to know what the objects are, and to have an explanation of
the despatch of Lord Stratford de Redcliffe, dated, I think them from her Majesty's Government. (Hear.) On the
July G, in which ho gives a most clear and admirable expo- first night we were told that we should wait until the blue
sition of the whole state of the case, and in which he calls book was put upon the table ; and upon taking it up I see
upon his Government to come to a decision one way or it is a book on the rights and privileges of the Greek and
another. I think I never saw- fremecl a more admirable Latin Churches. I hope it is not for the privileges of the
state paper than that ;it shows you not only the predica- Greek and Latin Churches we are going to war. (Hear.)
meat in which, partly by your advice, the Turkish Govern- I for one will not consent to enter into a conflict for such
ment has been placed ; but the risks which you may incur an object. The object for which this country contracts an
of the mischief which in one way or the other are sure to alliance for war ought to be worthy of it. I say that
ensue from the state into which affairs have got ; and when we risk our fleets and send forth our armies, we
he says that it is not for him, but for the Government ought to know for what, and receive a proper explanation
to judge what line is to be adopted ; and he recommends of it. I hope you will he able to show to-night, it is
that a firm decision upon that subject should be come to defend the Turkish territory against aggression ; but
to with the least possible delay. He warns the noble do you think you can defend the Turkish territory, and
lord that the evils that are evaded for a time are most limit your operations to that, by making a partial,
likely to recur again with peculiar power and force ; and limited, qualified, movement in the Black Sea, and
he tells you that that is not the way to surmount a grave by sending 10,000 men to encamp at Varna. You are en-
difficulty, but that it is your duty to view it in all its gaging in a war with Russia to prevent Russian aggran-
proportions, to measure it well, that you may be able to disement, or you are not embarking in an object that is
combat it, and then to make finally and as early as pos- worthy of your efforts. (Hear, hear.) No statesman, no
sible your decision as to the course you will adopt. Re- writer upon international law, will deny that when a large
ferring to the consequences of leaving the Turkish Govern- power commits an act of aggression, and wages war for the
ment to its fate or interfering to assist it, he says : "If the sake of aggrandisement, on a weaker power, and that a
ultimate exclusion of Russia, as well from the Greek Pro • third power, not directly affected by that, but indirectly
tectorate as ft ora the Principalities, be really the important affected by the changes that must take place in the balance
object that it is presumed to be, I humbly conceive that it of power, and other circumstances affecting its welfare, is
will never be attained, according to any reasonable calculi).- fully entitled to interfere in that war. (Hear.) We are
tion, without a perfect understanding on the part of Eng- prepared to resist Russian aggrandisement at the cost of
land and France to stop at no sacrifice if necessary." Now, Turkey, and to resist it in concert with France, and in
my lords, lam happy to say that we have acted in confer- concert also with Turkey. We rely on the loyalty, good
mity with that opinion so far as it relates to our under- faith, and honour of the Emperor of the French and his
standing with France; but up to this moment no under- Government. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") That Go-
standing has been arrived at respecting the sacrifices we vernment has behaved throughout, in all its negotiations,
are prepared to make, and for what object they are to be towards England in a manner which lam sure has won not
made. (Hear, hear.) I shall not take up your lordships' only the respect, but even the gratitude, as well as the
time with the proceedings at the conference at Vienna, and good feeling of every man in this country. (Hear.) And
the events which have consequently taken place. It is said my lords, I admit the Turkish Government has shown itself
to have been a great thing to have secured the alliance of wonderfully active ; but, at the same time, lan not will-
Austria and the German Powers, and no person is more ing to go into a war led by Turkey, without knowing to
aware of the importance of that alliance being secured what limit lam to go, for what object lam embarked in
than lam ; but Ido not see, and those papers do not tell it, and where lam to stop. Nor am I willing, looking to
us, how far we are in alliance with that Power, or whether all the precarious chancee of human affairs, and of human
that Power approves of the course we have taken in the life, to embark side by side, even with France, with all the
Black Sea, or how far the position in which we stand is in good feeling her rulers have shown, and the good feeling
entire accordance with the views of the Austrian Govern- which this country entertains towards France and its Ge-
ment. (Hear, hear.) But this I say, you will perceive vernment, without knowing how far we are to go— what
from these papers that while you were hesit sting and our contingent will be—what will be the contingent of our
vacillating, and holding aloof from France, and depending allies, and what powers will go with us. (Hear, hear.)
entirely upon
iotnwßauesnsioat, that Austria did not come to your Those are matters respecting which we should have some
then that you got any assurance from assurance ; but in the papers presented to Parliament
the German Powers ; but when you told them boldly and there is no information concerning them, and in the com-
ps would be taken by France munications made to us on the part of her Majesty's Mi-
LisatiEncotil7laothda,tthstarton jacerthstee
time that Austria seemed to be nisters, those subjects are totally omitted. (Hear, hear.)
alive to her true interest, for her interestand it I have found fault with her Majesty's Government,
is by your eneroa and not by your vacillation, that you because I think that this war has been brought on by
have ,obtained whatever influence you possess in the infirmity of purpose and lack of decision ; and I say the
Austrian Court. (Bear, hear.) Then there took place evils that await us, if, unfortunately, that infirmity of
a melancholy event, to which 1 will not advert, but purpose and lack of vigour should still pervade the Cabi-
I will advert to the instructions that were given to net, are infinitely greater than those we have experienced.
our Minister at the Court of St. Petersburg respect- It was said by an illustrious individual that England can-
ing the communication which he was required to not engage in a little war ; England has of late years gene-
make. My lords, I must say that the communica- rally engaged in little wars; but of this lam sure—and I
tion that was made by Sir George Seymour to Count will borrow the words of the illustrious man to whom I
Nesselrode of the entry of the fleet into the Black Sea, have alluded, because I think they are peculiarly applicable
was read by me with sincere pain. It appears that in the to the present moment—that I think England cannot en-
first place he informs the Russian Minister that it was gage in a little war with Russia ; for, to bring that war to
with place
hostile intention to Russia that our fleet was go- a safe and satisfactory conclusion, you must make an effort
ing into the Black Sea, and he then says, moreover, that worthy of England. It is a great struggle in which yon are
the Turkish fleet is not to be allowed to commit any ag- about to engage, and unless you are
prepared to give way
gression against Russian territory. To which Count Nes- upon every point, and to submit to indignity and humilia-
selrode not unnaturally replies, " Are you quite sure that tion, the Government must look it in the face, and act as
this intention is expressed in your instructions?" And it other Governments have acted under similar circumstances.
was no wonder that he should be astonished. (Hear, hear.) But, my lords, we are engaged in hostilities already. The
Sir G. Seymour then proceeded to deliver a short but sig- fleet is at this moment engaged in hostilities in the Black
nificant homily on the value of truth—one that I think I Sea, and I cannot say anything in compliment of the mode
was very well applied in the quarter to which it was ad- iin which those hostilities have been carried on. I don't
dressed, but at the same time was administered at a most know whether the same tone pervades the communication
unhappy moment, for according to the narrative contained that has been sent to the admiral which pervades the in-
in those papers it was not a correct definition of our iuton- structions under which Sir G. Seymour acted when he
tions. It is not a correct intimation of our acts to say communicated the intelligence of the entry of the fleet into
that we entered into the Black Sea with no hostile inten- the Black Sea, but what happened there seems to be of the
tions. (Hear, bear.) I Say, my lords, that we did enter same character. It is a matter of notoriety, of which all
the Black Sea with a hostile latent, and immediately con- letters from Constantinople speak without the slightest re- I
mated acts of hostility. The Russian ships were ordered serve, that the re-entry of the fleets into the Bosphorus
to return to their ports, and if they did not return to their contrary to the advice and desire of the ambassador. We I
ports force would have been used against them—that is, understand there were particular reasons for it, with which
that they would be taken or sunk. (Hear, hear.) What it is not for me to find fault; but this I cannot help say-
right had we to do that if were not prepared to commit acts ing—what every professional and non-professional man will
of hostility. (Hear, hear.) The Russian fleet is superior say—that the result is most unfortunate. We are told
to the Turkish. Russia and Turkey have declared war that during the dark nights the storms and dangers of
against each other, and of course it is an act of hostility to the coasts render it unsafe for our ships to stay at sea ;
prevent Russia from having the advantage of her superi- but what is the case ? The case is, that our ships cannot
ority in the Black Sea. -- But more than that, you know keep the sea in the Black Sea when the Russian fleet
the Russians have forces, possessions, and territories along can go forth, and perform active operations. (Hear, hear.)
a great portion of the shores of the Black Sea ; and to pre- You declared your indignation when your flag was insulted
vent their ships from reinforcing their force their, and by the event at Sinope, and since then you have declared
strengthening their forts, and having recourse there for the more emphatically that the Turkish territory was under
protection of their territories, was an act of hostility, and your protection • but notwithstanding that declaration, it
Hear
no man can deny it. (, hear.) What was the appears that the Russian ships have attacked and bom-
very first step that was taken by the fleet when it en- b irded a fort on the Asiatic side of the Baltic Sea, at a
tered. the Black Sea ? The very first step was to convoy a time when unfortunately the British admiral thought it
hear.)
Turkish fleet with munitions of war towards the seat of unsafe for his fleet to continue at sea. (Hear,
This
war in Asia. (Hear, hear.) Ido not merely ask an amen- is most celamitous—it lowers the character of the conntryi
sly of gentlemen or of statesmen but I would put it to It does not lower the character of the naval service; but
it
the most sophistical or casuistical' tribunal that over got will tell the noble lords on the Treasury benches what
together—and I defy the noble earl at the head of her does affect. It affects the hononr of the country an f
Constantinopleth
Majesty's Government to show me any jarist, casuist, or Government, for it is a current belief at
eeomu.
sophist, who would not say—that so to aid one of the bel- that the admiral commandingthe fieethad apeiv t
scan
ligetents to take part in the warfare, is undoubtedly an nication, desiring him to avoid anycollision withthe Russian
indication of hs.ving hostile intentions towards the other fleet under any circumstances whatever, !Hear,
_hear.)_. I
party. (Hear, hear.) '1 he thing is undeniable. (Hear, don't believe a word of this, for I don't think any Minister
hear.) We said we would not allow the Turkish Govern- would be capable of adopting such a couriset.; but those
meat te commit any act of aggression onßussian territory, things pass through a country like those.As Asiatic countries
yet still our ships are convoying muniticns of war, which with inconceivable force— a Hear,hearh.) in
The very speecountry it
will be taken to Russian territory. (Heir, hear.) Did we is difficult to comprehend.
(
that in sense uch as elseitish stalesmen would wish of the noble earl at the respect of the Government, the other
say a s
the truth of their language held ? ;Hear, hear.) Are night, when he spoke ng the hope of peace with
we to say that is a fair and correct Katement when we Russia, if circulated through Asia, would be better than
convoyed troops and munitions of war -.o make war upon 10,000 or 20,000 men to the Ruesuin overnment. (Hear,
Russian territory that was within a few miles of the place hear.) What can they say but that we are afraid to go to
where we landed them. (Hear, hear,) But, my lords, I war with Russia, and. that if we sneak into a war we are
do not know why we should say this at ill. Ido not know afraid at the last •moment to say it. (Hear, hear.) If we
why we were at that moment to tell Russia we had no are at peace, what is the peace, and what is the peace that

GEC- -sr c_ _ 41V'
_
//
. •
/ V I-- rte We are not at w 4 because war, is not declared-';
(.7 we not strictly at peace with Russia. • (A• laugh.)
- My nob riend may laugh ; but hOniiist knew; perfectly..
1 lot
' well that am correct in saying tat rip are itot. at Vi
with Ru , although diplomatic rel teneWitlr thatemus,
try have been suspended. (Hear, be iktid 3ion moot:
tiss 4ke s'
• s remember, my lords, that these relations ve.j.nOVl4
zs
terrupted in consequence of our act, the in vine
been taken by Russia, who has declared that her iplo-
matic relations with us are simply suspended. Therefore
I. consider that we are in the intermediate state, that our
desire for peace is just as sincere as ever ; but then I must
say that our hopes of maintaining it are gradually dwin-
dling away, and that we are drifting towards war. (A
laugh.) But as my noble friend (Lord Aberdeen) said the
other night, so long as war is net declared the maintenance
of peace is not utterly despaired of. I therefore consider,
my lords, that the negotiations are now at an end ; but
whether a state of warfare is instantly to ensue, I am sure
your lordships will not expect me in the exercise of my
discretion or responsibility to state to your lordships the
exact steps which her Majesty's Government think it neces-
sary to take in the present aspect of affairs. Because your
lordships must remember that we are not acting alone; we
are acting in conjunction with our allies ; and I thik it
will be sufficient at the present moment to flay, in answer
to the doubts thrown upon our proceeding by my noble
friend, that every preparation is being made, and with all
the vigour and all the rapidity which the existing state of
things demands. More than that, my lords, Ido not think
your lordships will expect me to say ; except that I have
only one thing to observe to my noble friend, who seems to
imagine that we haveno understanding with France, either
as to the objects of our conjoint action, or as to the manner
in which they are to be carried outaly noble friend in this
is entirely mistaken ; but you lordships will not expect
that I should lay upon the table any agreement between
the two powers either as to our military or our naval opera-
tions. (Hear.) My lords, throughout my noble friend's
speech he treated our position as one that was anomalous
—anomalous with reference to Russia, and anomalous
with reference to Turkey. But he must remember that the
whole question, from beginning to end—from the earliest
period of the negotiations down to the present day—has
presented one continued series of anomalies, to be dealt
with one after another. My lords, what could be more
anomalous than that Russia should have perpetually pro-
claimed that the maintenance of the Ottoman Empire was
an European necessity, and that the independence of the
Sultan mast be upheld, and yet that she should, without
the shadow of a pretext, have demanded a power and a
right to interfere in that country which would have vir-
tually transferred the allegiance of eight or ten millions of
the Sultan's subjects to the Emperor of Russia, and whioh
was truly declared by the Turkish Minister as a system
that would have killed the Ottoman Empire by slow
poison—(hear, hear)—and if the other great Powers of
Europe are equally bound by the same engagements with
Russia not to allow the open and direct invasion of the in-
tegrity of the Ottoman Empire, they are not less bound
to resist the same result being aimed at by a more slow,
subtle, and indirect policy ; and they unanimously recom-
mended the Sultan to refuse to concede the final demands
made by Russia. I know there are persons in Parliament
and out of it, who consider that it would be far better not
to interfere at all between Russia and Turkey ; and that.
it would be preferable to allow things quietly to take their
own course. (Hear, hear, from Earl Grey.) My noble
friend cheers that remark ; but I think he does not very
distinctly nor very correctly weigh what would be the re-
sult of such a policy. We might certainly have avoided
the state of things which now excites and agitates men's
minds; but to do so would be to purchase a temporary re-
pose at a perilous risk. A protectorate over 5,000,000 or
10,000,000 of the Sultan's subjects, would have placed the
throne and empire of the Sultan completely at the mercy
of Russia at any moment. Do what you might to pre-
vent it, Russia might thus become the mistress of Con-
stantinople; and, applying all her energies and all her
resources to increase her naval strength, she would
become a great Mediterranean power, being also a great
Baltic power. Why, my lords, in that case nothing would
prevent the Emperor of Russia from being the lord of
Europe—(hear)—and causing a constant and ruinious drain
upon the resources of other nations who wished to main-
tain an amount of naval force to counterbalance the power
of Russia. The defence of Turkey, under these circum-
stances, is a question which involves the independence of
Europe - (cheers)—and not France and England alone have
so regarded it, but Austria and Prussia likewise. No one
can doubt that., in the month of May last, Austria and
Prussia could have had no wish to quarrel or be at differ-
ence with Russia unnecessarily; and yet, my lords, the re-
presentatives of those two powers at Constantinople, being
consulted by the Porte, and receiving instructions front
their own Governments, cordially united with the ambas-
sadors of England and France in recommending the Porte
to resist the demands of Prince Menschikoff, clearly fore-
seeing the perilous results that must ensue from compliance
with them. And, my lords, if that was the case simply
with reference to the demand con Lained iii the note which
Russia proposed that the Porte should accept, how much
more bound are these powers to support their own princi-
ples when they sea the violation of those principles at-
tended by so dangerous a measure as the occupation of the
Danubian Principalities? The occupation of these princi-
palities, my lords, gave to the question a greater import-
ance and interest, and imposed on the four powers the ne-
cessity and the duty of resisting the policy of that fifth
power which had always proclaimed the same principles,
and was bound by the same engagements—principles and
engagements which up to this time it had solemnly declared
its intention of maintaining. My lords, the occupation of
the principalities constituting a cams kW, and yet there
being no declaration of war, and then again the declara-
tion of Russia that nothing new was demanded, and yet
its absolute refusal to accept the status quo, form two other
instances in that series of anomalies for which Russia, and
certainly not this country, is responsible. My noble
friend, in speaking of the occupation of the principalities
—an act which he designates, I must say, in not too strong
terms—appears to think that we ought to have held
firmer language to the Emperor of Russia on this subject.
(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) Now, I believe that
a reference to the blue book will relieve us from this
charge, because it will show that from the moment that
we discovered that the objects contemplated by Russia
were other than those which we were led to expect, and
that other demands than those which had been all along
stated to us were made upon Turkey, there has been no
backwardness in our remonstrances, no wavering or indis-
tinctness in the expression of our opinions, no failure in
our attempts to convince the Emperor of the injustice of
his demands, and of the enormous danger with which he
threatened the peace of Europe by deviating from that
peaceful policy which had characterised his whole reign,
and by acting in violation of those principles regarding the
maintenance of the Ottoman empire which he had so often
proclaimed. My lords, that, I think, was the proper
course for us to pursue, and the language which was be-
coming in us to use. Buti my noble friend seems to think
that we should have gone at first still further, and have
menaced Russia, and states what we should be prepared
to do. My lords, I have previously stated the reason why
her Majesty's Government, though full admitting that the
rants Belli was clear and complete, yet did not recommend
the Sultan to stand upon his rights—in which advice we
were forestalled by our ambassador at Constantinople, who
certainly was no bad judge of what was. the interest of
Turkey, and whose advice, moreover, had already been
adopted by the Sultan before our advice reached Constan-
tinople. I say, my lords, that we could not recommend
the Sultan to act on his right, and declare war, so long as
there was a hope of the peaceful settlement of the question,
and while the Sultan was iu a state in which he was in-
capable of offering resistance. My noble friend, I think,
will not say that at the time we desired and recommended
the Sultan to remain at peace he should have advised Eng-
land and. France to declare war. But supposing that we had
induced the Sultan to do that, he believing it to be contrary
to his interest, and that in July last we had done that which
my noble friend says he regrets was not done; and I am sure
mynoble friend would not have recommended us to do this if
he had himself been a responsible Minister—but supposing
that in July last her Majesty's Government had come down
to Parliament with a menace to Russia, and she had defied
us, and we had. declared war with her, sure I am that my
noble friend would have been the very first (and I think
your lordships would have agreed with him in doing so) in
accusing DS of having acted with haste and precipitation,
and of having plunged the country into war, and would
have said there was no wonder that we had driven Austria
and Prussia into a close alliance with Russia—that we had
treated with contempt their wishes, and made no real
effort to preserve peace, and that there was no wonder that
they would not support us, because we had asked. and re-
ceived. distinct categorical assurances that they entertained
the same views as ourselves, but we had not relied upon
them or waited for their co-operation. (Hear.) My noble
friend has said there were no debates on this question in
the last session of Parliament, but I find that certainly
there was no lack of discussions, generally promoted by
himself ; and I will refer to one last year, in which my
noble friend took the initiative, and in which he said that
any promise given by the Emperor of Russia, and any en-
gagements into which he entered, he was satisfied that he
would faithfully and punctually fulfil, and at that time 1
expressed my concurrence in my noble friend's confidence • ,
in the honour and integrity of the Emperor ; and the man-
ner i n which this statement was received in this house
showed that your lordships did not think the confidence of
her Majesty's Government in the Emperor's declarations
would be misplaced. That discussion took place on the
',oth of April, and that day month it was my duty to re-
capitulate these assurances of confidence in a despatch now
iwnhyect)ititeriloolerlehniops* tthhaendsasn,,
,asnd ui.,,,ynteme%r I ift a
not
t 7
:tule,ul cg
ls
explicit
kind, and whether, at the time_ they were made, we had
not reason to rely that Russia had 110 idea of aggran-
aieenient or of encroachment, awl whether we should
have been justified in plunging this country into a. war.
my noble friend alluded was
Itnssia, I will shortly refer to
t
r
ninunicatiuua
itkhieshalGlieod-
flavonUnc-uehl tsticat:tiwc:ll
tere ordered uNpv
ohrtittheecatious \o‘relßinmete).sgeponhtWeioeariltuioeosstus;tsitlahiwnteiTisse:no cto hopeless,ber
last a communication was made to the Russian Govern-
ment, stating that the fleets were not there for the purpose
of attacking Russia, but that we were determined to defend
the Turkish territory. My lords, no aggression did, take
place on the Turkish territory ; and in the meantime we
received assurances (and. they were distinctly given to the
Austrian Government as well) that Russia would still re-
main on the defensive. For upwards of a month there
was no aggression committed on the Turkish territory,
until the horrible affair at Sinope occurred, when the
Turkish fleet, peacefully anchored in a Turkish harbour,
was completely destroyed, and where, if the combined fleets
had been present, they would have repelled the aggression
and chastised the aggressor. Her Majesty's Government
then felt, in conjunction with that of the Emperor of the
French, that the time was come, not only to prevent the
recurrence of such a disaster, but at. once to protect the
Ottoman flag and Ottoman territory ; and no time was lost
in making such a communication both to the Russian Go-
vernment and the Russian admiral. But we did not think
—whatever may be my noble friend's opinion—in the situ-
ation in which matters then stood, that to permit an ag-
gression (we having undertaken to defend the Turkish ter-
ritory) on the Russian territory would have been proper
or lawful. We did no harm to the Turks by that, because
they were too weak to attempt any aggression upon the
Russians, and. they could only have done so under the pro-
tection of the French and English flags. We thought that
for us to permit that, and to become accessories, and more
than accessories, iu acts of overt hostility towards Russia,
NoVfo
havingu cl have
committed
been justly a tt os
of
f expose
hostilityo u rsel ourselves
tthoot hsurtesahan
having
tvc
hui
wnse accusation
oiti
nuou
inyee
manliness or the courage to declare war. We considered
thatunlv
otrhtahty
of wouldE n
iaavned b. elevne dastardly
did n ota e
lcourse,ew
these instructions were sent, because, in the beginning of
December, we did not see that war was necessary. Nre
had reason to expect that our objects in protecting the
Turkish territory and flag might be carried out without
war ; but to commit acts of hostility under the mask of
peace we thought—and lam sure your lordships will agree
with us—would have been unjust and unbecoming the dig-
nity and character of this country. (Hear, bear.) Our
communication to St. Petersburg was not regarded is the
friendly light which my noble friend seems to think. On
the contrary, the Russian Government, so far from being

is the object of the war? I hope we shall have a satisfac-
tory peace. (Hear.) I want to know what is the peace
which the noble earl keeps in view. Not, I trust, that sort
of peace that we could have if we sent our fleet when Col.
Rose sent for it, or acted with France when the French
fleets sailed for Salamis. That is not the peace we now
wish to attain. (Hear.) If that be the peace which the
noble earl thinks to maintain--if he conceives that he .can
maintain those treaties which have kept Europe in con-
stant dread, and that no indemnity is to be paid by Russia
for the aggression that has been committed, and that we
are to treat her now as we would have done ten or twelve
years ago—l tell him that Europe will not stand it, and
that we will not stand it. (Hear.) I know the Parliament
of this country will not submit to such degradation- The
question with regard to local despatches, or whether a word
shall be this way or the other, or whether they shall ex-
press that certain privileges are to be !granted ab antiquo,
or that some new sort of guarantee is to be given by Tur-
key to Russia, is not the matter now at all for considera-
tion. What the country and what Europe requires is, not
a pitiful and contemptible adjournment of war, but a mea-
sure that will secure the peace of Europe. (Hear.) That
is the purpose for which we have armed. Let not the
Government be afraid—let the Ministers say that is their
e vi gorous efforts
object—that they are prepared to mak
throughout the world to maintain peace. I know that
Parliament and the country will respond to that call, and
the issue of the contest I cannot for a moment doubt.
(Hear, hear.) In conclusion the noble earl moved, " That
an humble address be presented to her Majesty, humbly
praying that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to
direct the further information respecting the diplomatic
relations with the Court of St. Petersburg, and the war
which appears imminent, be laid before the house."
The Earl of CLARENDON—My lords, although I cer-
tainly do not anticipate all the benefit from the discussion
that my noble friend promised to us last week, when he
gave notice of his motion, yet I for one do not regret that
he has called the attention of your lordships to the ques-
tion in a more deliberate manner than has been possible
since the meeting of Parliament, for, involving as this
question does the most momentous consequences—affect-
ing, it may be, British interests in every quarter of the
world—l think your lordships and the country are entitled
not only to the fullest information upon the subject, but to
have that subject sifted and analysed in a manner that will
show whether the Government have done their duty, and
thereby entitled themselves to your confidence. (Hear,
hear.) I think no one who has listened to my noble
friend's speech can deny either the industry or ingenuity
with which he has analysed this information. (Hear,
hear.) I think nobody will deny that there has not entered
into his analysis one grain of partiality-4 might almost
say one grain of fairness—towards her Majesty's Govern-
ment. (Hear, hear.) He has had the advantage—of which
he has largely availed himself—of testing the latest nego-
tiations, but he has not given to us the benefit of placing
himself in our position at any of the intermediate times,
and of deciding according to the circumstances. (Hear,
hear.) And what has been the result of this? That my
noble friend considers that if things had been done differ-
ently, a different result might have arisen. (Hear, hear.)
His charge against the Government is a matter of his own
opinion, and although I certainly shall not hope to satisfy
my noble friend that we have done our duty, or that we
have been guided by a true sense of what was due to the
country, or even able to carry out our own policy, yet I
venture to hope that such is not the verdict of the people
of this country, and that they do nut think that we have
tarnished the honour of England by labouring to maintain
the peace of Europe. (Hear, bear.) I certainly am the
last person to regret anything that has fallen from my
noble friend, for certainly I will say with all sincerity that
nobody has more regretted than myself that the conduct
of the negotiations should not have fallen into abler hands.
They were difficult in themselves, but were rendered far
more difficult under the circumstances. (Hear.) The great
distance between the seats of negotiation, the time un-
avoidably lost in intercommunication, and the rapidity of
events which have often completely frustrated the best
founded hopes of success—all those thing have rendered
these negotiations peculiarly difficult. (Hear, hear.) I can
truly say that I have deeply regretted that they should not
have been confided to more able hands, but upon public
grounds I must regret the tone in which my noble friend
has brought this question before your lordships. (Hear.)
I think his object has been to disparage the Government,
and to create disunion at a time when certainly we may at
any moment require all the strength of the union, and
when nothing like dissension should prevail. (Hear.) My
noble friend opposite—the noble earl—has said that, if war
there was to be in a just and righteous cause, he thought
we should lay aside all considerations of party, and en-
deavour to support the Government, because war should
not be undertaken at all except it were maintained by the
universal force and unanimity of the nation. And I must
say, my lords, that I think that course would have been
the best course under the circumstances in which we are
now placed, and one which I believe would have been
more in harmony with the feelings of the people of this
country than the course which my noble friend has pur-
sued on this occasion. I think your lordships will not
deem it necessary for me to follow my noble friend through
all that he has said, and all that he has quoted, and not
quite correctly quoted, as your lordships may see from the
papers. My noble friend seems to think that Prince Men-
schikoff did sufficient in the earliest part of his missiou to
Constantinople to have created alarm on our part, and to
have justified stronger measures. My lords, we are told,
as soon as the information could reach us from Constanti-
nople, of what the proceedings of Prince Menschikoff were
We asked in very distinct terms what were the real objects
of his mission, and we received the most direct answer.
And my noble friend is perfectly right in saying that there
were communications in contervations which could not be
properly placed in the blue books. I can assure my noble
friend-that he is perfectly right in his assumption ; and
that these comraunicatiens were far stronger, although they
were confidential, than anything that will be found in the
printed papers. We received the strongest assurances that
Prince Menschikoft's mission had reference solely to the
question of the holy places ; and it was on that ground we
felt it impossible to doubt the representations of the Rus-
sian Government. My lords, I should as soon have thought
of doubting what any noble lord in this house stated onhis
honour, as I would have thought of doubting or of taking
any measures in distrust of the assurances which Russia so
distinctly and so repeatedly expressed to us. I say, my lords,
that with the assurances which we received, it was impos-
sible not to believe in the sincerity of Russia. I said also,
the other night, that these assurances were for some time
borne out ; for, although Prince Menschikoff did in the first
instance propose a treaty that would have involved the no-
mination to the patriarchal and various other things, all of
which were matters which n doubt would have been highly
pleasing to the orthodox party in Russia, of which he was
at the head, yet we found afterwards to some extent the truth
of what we were told at St. Petersburg, viz., that the Prince
had great latitude in his instructions—that they referred
only to the holy places—and that, in fact, he was able to set-
tle that question in whatever way it appeared to him fit. I
say, again, therefore, that it was impossible not to believe
these assurances. But my noble friend has greatly complained
of our not having approved of Col. Rose's conduct in calling
up the British fleet, and has complained of a disagreement
whichhe says bad arisen between us and the French Goveni-
rnent ; and said that that measure, on our part, had p re-
duced great apprehension on the part of the Turkish Govern-
ment. Now I beg your lordships just to remember what
were the circumstances. (Hear.) Colonel Rose on Prince
Menschikofi's arrival, and when there was great excitement
at Constantinople, and he had had an interview with the
Turkish minister, requested that the fleet should be moved
up from Malta. Upon the French Government learning
that, and without any previous consultation with us, but
simply believing that the presence of their fleet would be
necessary, ordered their fleet to proceed to Marseilles to-
wards the Greek waters, with the view that if joint action
should be necessary they might, being in the Greek waters,
be more on a level, more on a par, with the English fleet
which was at Malta ; but there never was the slightest dis-
agreement between her Majesty's Government and that of
the Emperor of the French in this respect- (hear, hear)--
as your lordships will find from the despatches; and as to
the mischief which it is said this occasioned to the cause,
if your lordships will turn to the despatches which my
noble friend only quoted a portion of, you will there tied
that the Grand Vizier told Lord Stratford do Redcliffe,
and the latter agreed with .him, that the cause of the Sul-
tan was much better served by the determination to keel
the fleet at Malta instead of ordering it to Constantinople.
And, my lords, when this simple fact was communicated
to the Russian Government, they said that the presence of
the fleets at Constantinople would cause the Greatest em-
barrassment, and would be likely to prevent the settlement
of the question, which was not a question of aggression,
not a question of the principalities, and not one of the
questions which my noble friend said occupied the atten-
tion of Europe, but a question which was solely confined to
the subject of the holy places. with which we had nothing
to do ; and I think that the Russian Government would
have been borne out in what they said. They said, "Here
we give you assurances that we only have a view to the
holy places- we tell you all that we want to do, and all that
we have to dispute; and if the French and English fleets
come up and. assume au attitudeof hostility on that questi9n ,
we greatly think it will interfere with a peaceful solution
of the difference." And I must say thatwithout giving my
noble friend Lord Stratford de Redcliffe all the prase be-
cause there had been no interference on our part with the
that. the French fleet has gone where
we simply stated that (mfr fleet was
}aw'traenMnteedahlt_a—vvetharategwl Government,
ae did not think it was immediately
it will be on a level with ours ; but we do not think (and
the French Government agreed with us) that at this mo-
ment it is necessary to send up our fleet. And I think,
considering that the. only question then in view was one
in which no British interest was concerned—that the pre-
sencefriend of the combined fleets would certainly have altered
tnua::pedineart- araotinhl
erroneous
spaei tcsittnzo:
instructions—that
hi:oiamhs
the character of the proceedings. My'
Clanricarde) has said that our ambassador at Constanti-
e srbaee ye
was
laitsiaits entirelyayeii
nothing
bi
yn
concur in all that fell from my noble friend, as to the great
that Roble lord—my noble friend said that he went away
them which contemplated what has since ha ened2aini
sup
that our Minister at Constantinople had no pp
port, because
he had nothing to offer or promise to Turkey. Now the in-
structions which were given to our ambassador, as will be
found in the hue book, were that, if events which be did
not forsee should occur, and emergencies which we should
lament should arise, he was to give notice to the Briti-h
admiral to call up the fleet from Malta ; and in the first
despatch which our ambassador writes, giving au account
of his first audience with the Sultan, he states that he in-
formed the Sultan that, so far from having nothing to
offer, if be is in any difficulty or danger, the support of
her Majesty's Government will be given, and that he has
a right to call up the fleet. I come now to the more im-
portant part of the speech of my noble friend, and which
will be considered by your lordships and the country as
of far more interest, perhaps, that the contents of the
blue books—l mean the question of whether we are at
peace or whether we are at war. My lords, that is a
most important question ; but your lordships must be
aware that a distinct answer cannot now be given to