The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-07 00:00:00

out of doors would consider that, if that wrs3 trite, a viola-
tion of all good faith and good feeling had b on committed,
and that it ought not to pass without exple nation. (Hear,
hear.) He did not know who the accredit°, I agent alluded
to was—whether it was the Secretary of t be Treasury
of
not ; but, if so, he hoped such an explanation would be
given as should wipe away the imputation if discreditable
conduct. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. FRENCH had charged his right hon.. friend (Sir C.
Wood) with not carrying out the promise inferred from
the declaration he made to the Irish members in that house
in reference to the extension of the income tax to Ireland,
and his right hon. friend had endeavoured to answer that
charge by explaining that the question now s tool on a dif-
ferent footing, in consequence of the imposition of the tax
being accompanied by the remission of tho Consolidated
Anuuitics ; and that inasmuch as that remission would
relieve the land from a charge to which it was now liable,
he did not consider himself bound by the declaration. The
house would recollect that the statement of the right hon.
gentleman against extending the income tax to Ireland
was made in reference to the proposal for that purpose
brought forward last year by the right hon. member for
Bucks, which did not in any way affect the land, con-
sequently, the right hon. gentleman's explanation was in
no way applicable. The right hon. gentleman, it would be
remembered, called on Irish members to beware how they
permitted the small end of the wedge to be inserted, and
advised them not to allow the income tax to he extended
to Ireland in any shape ; and now that a proposal for im-
posing that tax to a far greater extent was brought for-
ward, he turned round upon the Irish members, and aban-
doning altogether his declaration against this tax in any
shape as applicable to Ireland, he supported it, giving as
his only explanation that some relief was to be given to
the land. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL remarked that it would be better if
the hon. gentleman had a charge to make against his right
hon. friend—that he could not honestly and honourably
vote for the Government proposal of the income tax,
which ho had declared his intention to vote for—if the hon.
gentleman had such a charge to make it would be better
that he should make it when Isis right hon. friend was in
the house, that he might have the opportunity of meeting
it. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. FRENCH—I did not know the right hon. gentle-
man was not in the house.
Lord J. RUSSELL—His right hon. friend was in the
hsch whoarg
house the whole of the earlier part of the evening during
gthhotn hgahvteitbmroourgeht convenientfor ward
the discussion that had taken place, when the hon. gentle-
man,charge—(hear)—but
he
present,
to make it in the absence of his right hon. friend, and
very probably in doing so he had exercised wise •
a judg-
ment. (Oh, oh.) His right hon. friend had, however,
fully explained his conduct in the debate on the income
tax, and he (Lord J. Russell) believed that explanation
was considered satisfactory to the house and to the country.
(Hear, hear.) His right hon. friend then said that he con-
sidered the proposition of the right hon. member for Bucks
(Mr. Disreali) to impose part of the income tax on Ireland
for three years ought not, under the circumstances, to be
carried out, but that in considering the proposal brought
forward, by the present Government he thought, upon the
whole balancing the advantage with the disadvantage--
that Ireland would be a gainer by the remission of the
consolidated annuities (that remission comprehending not
only those advances made on account of the distress in Ire-
land, but those also which were made for the necessities of
the workhouses) to an extent that would more than coun-
terbalance the burden of the income tax. (Hear, hear.)
And in the exercise of a judgment which he had full right
to exercise, his right hon. frie • nd declared that he would
vote in favour of the proposition. (Hear, hear.) Such in
substance was the explanation which his right hon. friend
gave—he went into details on the subject, and he (Lord J.
Russell) was sure that many Irish members, and certainly
very many other members, had also come to the opinion
that it was better for Ireland to have the remission of these
consolidated annuities, and to bear the income tax, than
to go on paying these annuities. (Hear.) He had, he
thought, said sufficient to answer the charge of his hon.
friend opposite, that his right hon. friend had voted for
this measure without fully explaining the reasons that had
induced him to do so, and he would suggest if his hon.
friend (Mr. French) had anything further to say on the
subject, that he should take an opportunity of saying it
when his right hon. friend the President of the Board of
Control was in the house. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. FRENCH did not know when he spoke that the
right hon. gentleman, the member for Halifax, was not in
the house. Did the noble lord mean to impute to him
(Mr. French) that he had made a charge against the right
hon. gentleman in his absence which he would not have
made in his presence? (Hear, and Oh.) If not, what did
he mean ? He could assure the noble lord that he was not
the person to shrink from bringing forward charges against
any minister, and in the presence of that minister, when
he thought them well founded.
Sir R. INGLIS was ready to give to Irish members the
largest latitude of time and of eloquence, but, on the part
of English members, he must appeal to them now to allow
them to proceed with the business of the country. (Hear,
hear.) He wished to call attention to a subject which he
had brought under the notice of the house on every occa-
sion of the renewal of the income tax since 1842, viz., the
injustice in point of principle, while they made all in-
comes under a certain amount exempt, to charge the tax
upon the whole of the income where it exceeded the limit
fixed.' (Hear, hear.) That was if they fixed the limit at
which the tax should begin at 1001. a year or 1501. a year,
it should apply only to the incomes beyond that amount
and not to the whole sum. The extension of the tax to
incomes of 1001. would extend the injustice of which he
complained to a class of persons who perhaps were least
able to bear it. This principle of levying the tax pressed
very severely on clergymen of small incomes, half-pay
officers, and others, who were compelled to maintain the
position of gentlemen on slender means, 4/. 7s. 6d. a year
was a small sum to members of that house, but it was a
serious amount to persons whose incomes were only 1501. a
year. What he contended was, that whatever the limit
was, whether 1001, or 1501., at which the income should
become liable to the tax—the tax should be charged only
upon the amount by which that limit was exceeded. Two
objections only had he ever heard against this plan—viz.,
the difficulty of remodelling the arrangements ; and the
loss to the revenue. With regard to the first, he believed,
if his right hon friend would direct one of the functionaries
in his office to turn his attention to the subject, the diffi-
culty might be met in a fortnight; and as to the second—
the question was not so much what the revenue would lose,
as whether they did not, by the system they adopted, in-
flict a positive hardship and injustice. Ho wouldnot pro-
pose any formal resolution, but would reserve to himself
the right of doing so at a future time.
The CHANCELLOR of Ithe EXCHEQUER rose to
reply ; but
The CHAIRMAN said there was no question before the
committee. He had not stopped the hon. baronet, because
he did not know but that he was about to conclude with
an amendment. The observations of the hon. baronet did
not, however, refer to that part of the resolutions which
he (the chairman) had read, and he must be permitted to
read on until he came to some part to which any hon.
gentleman desired to propose amendment.
The first part of the resolution was then read, viz.,
" That it is the opinion of this committee, that, towards
raising the supply granted to her Majesty, there shall be
raised annually during the terms hereinafter limited the
several rates and duties following (that is to say), for and
in respect of the property in any lands, tenements, or here-
ditaments, in the United Kingdom, and for and in respect
of every annuity, pension, or stipend."
Mr. FITZGERALD had an amendment to interpose at
this point, the object of which was to exempt incomes in
Ireland arising from trades and professions from this tax.
Ho concurred in the principle, if the tax was to be made
permanent in this country, of extending it to Ireland.
And the feeling in Ireland was not so much against the
extension of the income tax to that country as against its
application to trades and professions. His amendment
would exempt Ireland only from a part of Schedule D,
and it was that part that required expensive machinery
and those inquisitorial proceedings which would tend more
than anything else to snake the tax unpopular. The total
amount of funded property now held in Ireland was about
38,000,000/. producingabout 1,300,0001. a year. Land
might be taken at 11,000,0001., public salaries and county
salaries at nearly 1,000,000/. The income from railway
property was about 7,000,0001. a year, and then came the
banking property. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had
estimated the income tax to be derived from Ireland at
450,0001., which at three per cent, was calculated in a
gross income of 15 millions ; but he (Mr. Fitzgerald) esti-
mated the gross income at 17 millions; and if so, the
income tax derivable from trades and professions would
be very small indeed. The next question was what would
be the probable expense of collection ? He admitted that
if the income tax was applied to Dublin Cork, and Bel-
fast, it would be profitable, notwithstanding the expense of
collection ; but what machinery was there for the collection
of the tax in .the small towns and villages and districts
over which incomes above 1001. a year derived from trades
and professions, besides those of the clergy, as well
of the established church as the Roman catholics and
Presbyterians,were scattered. You would not avail your-
self of any existing machinery for the collection of the tax,
that
the it was that which induced Sir R. Peel to state
the income tax would not be productive in Ireland. The
existing Poor-law Boards were unfit for the purpose, on
account sectarian of the political and feelings whichwwith
would they abounded.
It then be necessary to create a
new extendingtaff over every part of the country at an
He 'itzgerald) maintained that
enormous expense. (Mr.
the reasons which Sir R. Peel felt in 1842 to be conclusive
against the tax, existed now in undiminished force ; ;:!nd
in asking the house to assent to a proposition exempting
trades and professions in Ireland from the income tax, he
only followed the opinion of Sir R. Peel. He
admitted
that it was not just in the abstract to impose this tax on
laud and other property, and exempt trades and profes-
sions, but the ground or the exemption was that no finance
tax which would not be pro-
ductive.minister ought to impose a
to
gentleman
then proceededjustify
The hon.
question. S •
the vote he had given on the general
for iP°sl?lg
amendment of the hon. memberHertfordshire
that the
had been successful, and a dissolution had followed, the
England would
cry at every hustingshave been that the
income tax should be extended to Ireland, because in this
country it was believed that this was a free trade budget.
He (Mr. Fitzgerald) believed it was a free trade budget,
and because it was so he supported it. The amend-
ment he proposed was a real one, and one which he should
press to a division, on the ground that the expense of the
collection of the income tax, as regarded trades
fessions, would be so great as to render it and
Pro-
Sir J. PAKINGTON repudiated a productive.
rumour adverted to
by Mr. Fitzgerald, that a compact
cer-
tain portion of the Irish members existed between a and the members of the
late Government. He Wasnot
Mr. WHITESIDE said, if aware of any such compact.
Irish side were sincere, they silo uld 1 members on the other
Go-
vernment the other nisiit.have voted against the With respect to the motion
before the house, he would be rather than vote for it would no party to a sham, and
Mr. F. SCULLYthought walk out of the house.
the lion and learned
gentle-
man who last spoke had not dealt fairly bers from Ireland who voted the othernicwltthinhofn. memo:
the budget. (Laughter.) They voted considering‘our
the
t e
question to be, whether there should be a budget or no
budget. (Laughter on the Opposition benches.) Coming
now to the question before the house, the income tax being
extended to Ireland, he thought it the duty of Irish repre-
sentatives to endeavour, by amendments, to make that tax
as palatable as possible to the Irish people. (Renewed
laughter from the Irish members on the Opposition
benches.) He contended that—according to the report of
the House of sLords—the consolidated annuities exceeded
in amount, even doubled in amount, the highest point at
which an income or property tax had ever reached, even
in the period of the war. (Hear) By the proposed ar-
rangement, Ale tenants who held farms of 3001. or 4001.
per annum would gain, as they would pay less undenr.t
it.come tax than they were now paying under the
actfected
dated annuities. It was a question, therefore, thatitshould be
the occupiers of the soil, and lie was a/mien:se..
c_ _ _
argued fairly in that point of view. A! pr.
an,LiuLr:cra::
an immense amount of emigration going°
thou the industrious tenant-
emigrating was nearly
altog. the heavy poor rates sued
other He believed it brasth uncertainty of what those
other local burdens, and
taxes would hereafter be, that was driving the tenant.