The Sun.
London, England, 1854-02-28 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 28, 1854.

tific men, and again to require them to state what the pre-
cise size of the scale should be, whether 20, 24, or 26
inches. Upon Vote 6, he had already mentioned that
there was a sum of 133,0001. for machinery, and that he
should return to the subject, as it was possible that, with
regard to some portion of the vote, there might be some
difference of opinion. In the first instance, he asked the
house to consider the two items he proposed to take for
the improvement of the machinery of the Royal carriage
department and of the Royal laboratory at Woolwich,
amounting together to 138,0001. Those gentlemen who
had looked into the estimates of this year would be aware
of the enormous sums paid in wages in these establish-
ments, amounting, he thought, to somewhere about
75,0001. He ;was sorry to say that the Royal laboratory
was at present considered in the light of a manufactory
in an extremely primitive state. (Hear.) The rooms in
it were so small that it was impossible to have any effec-
tive superintendence over the workmen in order to see
that they attended to and conducted their work pro-
perly. It was of the utmost importance that iu any
manufactory the order of manufacture should be consecu-
tive, that when a part of anything was manufactured, it
should not be requisite to have it moved first in one direc-
tion, and then in another. At present that simple rule was
not attended to, and on account of the insufficient arrange-
ments there were considerable difficulties, particularly at
the present moment, in making this department keep pace
with the demands of the service. He would ask the house
to consider what the necessary effect of this was. He had
already stated that on account of the present position of
the department he referred to, it was difficult for it to
keep up with the present requirements. The consequence
was that the ordnance department was required to keep
large stores in hand in a time of peace, in order that, not
having the means of producing largely at any given period,
it should be able to supply the wants of the service at a
time when any great call might be made upon it. It was
thus necessary to keep large stores in hand, and the result
frequently was that a great number of the articles kept in
store became obsolete, and, in addition, carriages became
rotten and many things utterly useless. All these took up
room, though, for the reasons he had described, without
costing an enormous sum to the country. Many of these
carriages could not possibly be good for anything except
firewood ; consequently, in an age of invention like this,
when different discoveries so soon became absolete, it was
necessary in any establishment for warlike stores to arrange
it in such a manner that at any given time the stores could
be rapidly reduced. At the present moment these two de.
partments—the Royal Carriage Department, which pro-
duced all the gun carriages, and the Royal Laboratory.
which produced all our projectiles of war—expended in
wages at least 75,000/. ; at least, that was the sum
put down in this estimate, though he should deceive
the house if he were not to tell them that he pro-
bably might have to call on for a further vote. The
new machinery wonl i cost from 83,0001. to 90,0001.
which at 3 per cent. represented 3,0001. and he was in•
formed by the persons most competent to judge—by officers
of the highest experience and ability—that this expendi-
ture would reduce the amount spent in wages at least one-
half, if not more ; so that a saving of 37,5001. annually
would be effected by the expenditure of a sum the interest
of which amounted to about 3,0001. In the Royal Car-
riage Department, which, owing to the efforts of Colonel
Coote, whose loss they had this year to deplore, was in a
more advanced state than the Royal Laboratory, there had
been effected in this manner a saving of labour, as calcu-
lated on a comparison of the years 1844 and 1834, to the
extent of at least one-sixth, only 895 men being now needed
where formerly 1,094 men must have been employed. It
was clear, therefore, that the course which they proposed
to adopt would be a great saving in the annual expendi-
ture of the Ordnance, and it would prevent the necessity
of keeping so large a stock on hand, and in every way con-
for the greatest benefits on the contrary. The next sum
was probably one on which there would be more conten-
tion—it was the sum of 100,0001. for the erection of a gun
factory. He begged the house to understand that it was
not proposed to multiply Government factories —in fact,
two Government factories were to be discontinued. At
present Government had an establishment at Birmingham,
which this year cost 5,091./. and one at Enfield, which
cost 7,383/. It was proposed to get rid of these two fac-
tories—each of them, from their position, could probably
be disposed of very profitably—and in their place to erect
a gnu factory somewhere in the neighbourhood of Wool-
wich. The Board of Ordnance had but one thing to con-
eider, and that was to get the best arm at the cheapest
rate. (Hear, hear.) That, of course, was the only conside-
ration which could weigh with them, but at the same time
he should be very sorry that it should be stipposed that he
was at all indifferent to the position of the gunmakers who
seemed to consider themselves aggrieved by what was about
to be dote. The question had been forced on the considera-
tion of the board at the time of the first introduction ofthe
Minix rifle into our service. When the hoard was calla
on to produce Minie rifles sufficient for the whole army, they
would have been neglecting their duty if they had not
taken in consideration the system which had prevailed up
to that time, whether it had worked well, and whether, on
the whole, it was calculated efficiently to supply the wants
of the service. Two gentlemen of great experience and
ability proceeded to Birmingham and other places where
guns were manufactured. They reported the gun trade to
be—

" Altogether in a very lamentable state, and far behind any
other trade to which it can be compare. With the exception
of the barrel of the musket, they found the greater portion
produced by hand-labour alone. At the bayonet works
which they visited hardly any machinery worthy of the name
is employed, and, consequently, the expense of a bayonet is
considerably more than double what it may be expected to be
made by machinery."

For the last 10 years the Board of Ordnance had been en-
gaged in a struggle with the gunmakers. He would not
deny that there might be faults on both sides, but he be-
lieved he could show positively that on the side of the gun-
makers there were very considerable faults. The system
pursued by the Board of Ordnance was fully considered by
a committee of that house which sat in the year 1849,
from whose report the following was an extract :

" Your committee made some inquiries into the mode of
contracting for muskets, with a view of ascertaining whether
any reduction could be made in their cost without endanger-
ing the efficiency of the weapon supplied. Upon this point
conffictinc, opinions will be found in the evidence. The
weight of musket is in great measure regulated by the
length and calibre of the barrel. These points have been de-
cided by the highest military authority, and this decision
your committee suppose was made on sufficient reasons. Ob-
jections which have been urged against the present rigid sys-
tem of inspection do not appear to rest on any valid grounds.
It is the duty of the Board of Ordnance to take every security
that the muskets supplied shall conform to the pattern ap-
proved, and your committee have not heard that any
favouritism has been imputed to the viewers or other officers
employed in this service."
In the year 1851 tenders were called for for what was then
called the Minie musket, and on the 26th of June, 1d52,
the following petition was received from the military gun-
lock makers :

" Consequences to be deplored have resulted from this state
of things, for the men have from time to time embraced re-
munerative employment, as, for instance, great numbers are
employed upon revolving pistols; and at this present juncture
we could not rely upon more than 20, or at most 30 efficient
workmen to execute your order; and we are sorry to say that
the difficulties that surround us absolutely deter us from un-
dertaking to supply a ape:Hied quantity, and it would be im-
possible to supply the quantity required."
The difficulties with regard to the production of this mus-
ket were so great that it was nearly two years after the or-
der was given that the whole of it was supplied. During
the last year there had been an order given for 2,000 car-
bines for the artillery, and, though the first steps were
taken as far back as the beginning of March, the whole of
that order had not been received at this moment. At the
beginning of last year 20,000 new Minie rifles were ordered;
tenders were called in—not called from Londoner Birming-
ham or any one particular place—but from all England,
Scotland, or Ireland ; those received being unsatisfactory,
were declined, and new tenders advertised for in the pa-
pers. This failed to excite any more competition, and Sir
T. Hastings, the Controller of the Stores, a gentleman of
the highest intelligence and experience, and one who was
considered by all the gunmakers as one of the most just
and fair officers, went down to Birmingham, and, having
succeeded in making better terms, ordered 20,000 muskets
there. This was on the 26th Oct., 1853, and since then
they had received from the gunmakers numbers of letters
alleging various reasons for the non-completion of this or-
der. With some it was a general strike of the workmen—
others had been unable to get rod makers, others had made
miscalculations of other descriptions, but with almost
all, for one reason or other, there was a total im-
possibility of doing the work. There was one part
of the present system which the board had to con-
sider; and they had also to consider the price for which
the musket could be made. The task they had before them
was to provide a new musket for the whole of the army—
including artillery, marines, and coastguard, the price of
which at present would be something under 31. a-piece.
They were strongly warned by many of the ablest officers
in the army that it was not safe for the country to rely
upon the existing system, and they turned their attention
in the first place to the system which prevailed in the
United States. There they found that the Government
had in its heads three gun factories capable of turning out
500 rifle muskets a-day at 375. a-piece. They found also
an ample amount of muskets in store, and the latest im
provements of machinery, by means of which the different
parts of the musket were made with such accuracy that the
parts of one musket fitted into the parts of any other in-
discriminately. He had been told that bags of the differ-
ent materials of which muskets were composed were sent
to Mexico, and that, being opened on their arrival there,
the parts were taken out promiscuously and fitted into each
other with as much nicety as if each had been made speci-
ally for the other. That he believed was what could not
I* said of two of Purday's rifle muskets out of the same
But there was also another consideration. In 1841
_„4l°Alercussion arm was introduced into our service, and,
:LIU old flint muskets being thus rendered useless—for
he attempt pt to alter them was never successful—the ex-
u, of course, was enormous. But did they think that
no,,r` ei_age of rapid progress the musket which they were
°°,lt to introduce would retain for many years the
ce
pfe-enainen
visable on that which it now enjoyed ? And was it not ad-
render it account to devise some means which would
una
to retain such an inordinate number
of muskets in
and avoid the risk of the country
being put to aleosarYa4i
when the Demur, filar expense as that which was incurred
uke
of musket came into use? (Hear.)
When the
Ordnance, and
that
was Master-General of the
ardinge Clerk of the Ordnance,
they decided that thenumber.a of muskets to be kept in
store should be 457,000
was, but, without going to that enor-
mous number, it
at clear that with the pre-
sent amount of production k our disposal, 300,000
was a sufficient store to
utting the
requirement of the colonies on one aide. With a power,
however, of producing 500 muskets a daY, we should mani-
a the
the •
avoiding
in store
featly be in a better position witLl6o,oooo,ooo,
than we had been before with
g risk
upon the most minute calculations which
of great loss in future, besides auxin e capital repre-
sented by the difference in the two numbers. The of
this factory,
could be made, was 150,0001. It should be observed that
the factory would produce, not only muskets, but bayonets
also. He had said that he would ask the committee to
consider the financial effects of the measure he proposed.
For the line there would be required 110,000 isiime
tans.
kets ; for the artillery, 10,000 ; for the marines, 15,000 ;
and for the militia, 50,000 ; the number for store being
300,000, or, altogether, 485,000, exclusive of the colonies
and the East India Company. 485,000 muskets, at 3/.
each, would cost 1,455,0001.; but the highest authorities
believed that the musket might be produced for 1/. 10s.
He had stated that the price for -which the musket was
produced in the United States was 37.,. each ; but, consi-
dering the improvements which it was believed by those
best competent to form an opinion on the subject—by those
who were engaged in designs for the factory--could be
made on the American machinery,
he was prepared to ex-
press the belief that tho musket could be produced at the
Proposed factory for 30s. (Hear.) Taking this estimate,
the saving that would be effected upon the previous estimate
he had stated, of 31. each, would be 727,500/. But further,
he had mentioned that by means of the proposed system
the store, in time of peace, could be diminished by 200,000

the difference resulting from which would represent a capi-
tal of 600,0001. in favour of the public, the interest upon
which would be a considerable and permanent saving. All
this advantage would be realised by the outlay of 150,0001.,
from which, moreover, was to be deducted whatever the
present establishments at Birmingham and Enfield might
produce when sold. (Hear.) All these Minie rifles must
have new bayonets ; 485,000 bayonets at 7s. 6d., the ordi-
nary price, would cost 181,8751.; but it was calculated that
at the factory they could be produced for ls. 6d. each,
which would amount to only 36,3751., or a difference in fa-
vour of the public, by means of the factory, of not less than
4 (Hear, hear.) When, upon the authority of Mr.
lAns,d
srrslon, the same gentleman who had effected such enor-
mous savings in the royal carriage department, he could
show the committee that, by the expenditure of the pro-
posed 150,0001., such a large amount of arms could be pro-
duced at such a vast reduction of cost, he felt that Lord
Raglan was, indeed, perfectly right in considering the mat-
ter now before the committee as one of the very highest
importance to the public service, as pre-eminently condu-
cive to the permanent safety and well-being of the coun-
try. Under these circumstances, he hoped the committee
would pass this vote unanimously. (Hear.) He had stated
that he did not conceive the proposed arrangement would
do the injury to the gun trade of this country which that
trade anticipated. Let it be borne in mind that our gun
trade was at present in a very low condition, whereas that
of the United States was in a very advanced state. In the
report which was presented to the house the other day,
with regard to the machinery department of the United
States Great Exhibition, it was stated that the gun trade
of America was in a very high condition, and there seemed
every reason to fear that, unless our gun trade became im-
mensely improved, the whole trade would be transferred
to the United States. Under such circumstances, to have
a really good machinery for the construction of guns in-
troduced to the observation of the gunmakers of England,
whether by Government or by individuals, could not be
other than a public benefit. (Hear.) How stood the gun
trade of England now? In 1851 we exported 247,226 mus-
kets ' • in 1853 the number had fallen to 238,767. But now,
turn to pistols. In 1851 we exported 5,333 pistols ; in
1853 we exported 22,235 pistols, or more than treble the
number we exported in 1851. (Hear.) How had this
happened ? Why, because Colonel Colt had introduced
among us this very system of machinery, by means of
which, producing pistols of admirable quality at a cheap
rate, we had been enabled to effect so largely increased a
demand for our pistols—surely a benefit to the gun trade
of the country, which, with regard to muskets, had under-
gone deterioration. It was his opinion, that by the intro-
duction, in like manner, of improvements in the construc-
tion of muskets, the Government would be benefiting
our gun trade far more than the stoppage of the
intermittent Government contracts would injure it; for
those improvements would continue, and enlarge for the
trade the whole market of Europe. (Hear, hear.) lie
trusted that he had now satisfied the committee, and that
he should satisfy the deputation who had waited on him
from the guninakers, that the proposal he hail made as to
a Government factory would largely benefit the public,
without sacrificing the permanent interests of the small
number of persons whom the deputation represented.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman then moved that
19,265 men be voted for the Ordnance department for the
service of the year.
Mr. MUNTZ said that the hon. gentleman had said a
good deal that was perfectly correct, but he hail also
omitted to mention much that would have been equally
correct. The great cause of all the complaints on the part
of the Ordnance as against the Birmingham manufacturers
had been the Minie rifle, which, as being a weapon that
the manufacturers had only just become acquainted with,
the Ordnance officers themselves knowing very little more
about it thin the manufacturers, necessarily occasioned
delays and difficulties in the commencement of its manu-
facture. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman talked of making
for 303. a gun that cost in the ordinary way 31., but there
still remained the question as to the quality of the article.
As to the competency of the Birmingham factories to pro-
duce as many guns as were wanted, let the manufacturers
have consecutive orders, and they would execute them to
the largest required amount. (Hear, hear.) Another
great cause of delay was the inconvenience with which the
manufacturers had to contend from the way in which the
tenders were given out, a number of them being issued at
the same time to different manufacturers, and no new
ones sent out until all the former ones had been completed,
so that often molly of the manufacturers who hail disposed
of their part of the tender were at a stand-still for work.
(Hear, hear.) His firm opinion was that there was no
difficulty whatever to procure any amount of arms that
were required, and that without going to America, or
any other country for them than our own. (Hear, hear.)
He suggested that the vote relative to this matter should
be suspended for two months, with which time ho would
undertake to give ample proof to the house that
our manufacturers were fully able to produce any
amount of arms that might be considered requisite within
the required time • and, if he could not within such time
produce such proof, he would offer no further opposition
to the suggestion of Government. He thought it would
be the greatest folly to rush into erecting a mill in the way
recommended, and he felt convinced that, even if such a
mill were allowed to be made, no arms would be got oat
of it for at least two years ; and, in his opinion, nothing
at all would be gained by it, except an additional and a
, useless expense. (Cheers.)
The CHAIRMAN reminded the hon. member for Bir-
mingham that the question now before the house was, not
:Ls to the expediency of establishing a mill, but the esti-
mates as to the number of men. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel DUNNE could bear testimony to the efficiency
of the artillery troops, which he considered to be equal to
any artillery in Europe. He thought the improvements
contemplated with reference to the practice at Woolwich
most advantageous, as the present grounds were certaiuly
not sufficient for field guns, for which, if a proper range could
be obtained it would be of the greatest service to the corps.
He considered that the question as to the manufacture of
small arms was one of the highest importance, and one
which ought not to be lightly or hastily disposed of. He
should like also to see the improvements suggested carried
out in the laboratory, inasmuch as he believed them to be
necessary ; and nothing would please him more than to
see the present estimates framed upon a basis at once
efficient and perfect, and such as was not 'only desirable
but necessary in a time of emergency like the present.
Mr. WILLIAMS could not help noticing the very large
increase in the number of men in the Ordnance corps and
departments, which in the years immediately preceding
1845 amounted only to about 7,000 or 8,000 in 1845, to
9,000 ' • but in the present year, according to the proposed
estimates, to 19,000. (Hear, hear.) He thought the
charge of 8,5001. for the servants of the officers in the En-
gineers a very large sum, and also the amount of 120,0001.
for additional aid and allowance one thatwasout of all pro-
portion. He should be very glad to see the improve-
ments which had been spoken of carried out ; but at the
same time it was necessary that the house should use the
greatest care in voting these estimates.
The vote was then agreedt 0.
The next vote was, that a sum of 902,8171. be granted
for the pay, allowance, and contingency of 19,266 officers
and men composing the Ordnance military corps.
Mr. DRUMMOND said, as the subject of great coats
had been mentioned, and as everybody followed French
fashions now-a-days he begged to point out—while ex-
pressing his satisfaction at the more comfortable clothing
which they were going to give the troops—a very com-
mendable custom that prevailed in the French army. In
every sentry-box in France there was a large cloak, in ad-
dition to the great coat of the soldier, and the use of this
cloak was considered by the medical men of France to be
of great advantage to the men. (Hear.) This was a mat-
ter well worth consideration. He must say that he cor-
dially concurred in the proposal that the system of clothing
by the colonels should be altogether abolished. (Hear.)
The vote was then agreed to:
On 557,1761. being proposed for commissariat or bar-
racks supply,
Colonel GILPIN called attention to the miserable ac-
commodation given in barracks to married soldiers. The
wives of soldiers were not permitted to live in the barracks
unless they had certificates of respectability, and when re-
spectable women were thus introduced, it was exceedingly
wrong to give them the sort of accommodation they now
had in the midst of 20 or 30, or, as he had seen the other
day, 60 men. He hoped the attention of the hon. member
for Limerick would be turned to the case of these unfortu-
nate women, and that some better arrangement would be
adopted. (Hear.)
Sir W. CLAY likewise referred to the disgraceful accom-
modation given to married women in barracks, and pointed
out the want of proper ventilation, which might for a very
small sum be rectified in any barrack in the kingdom, also
the want of adequate library accommodation, the soldiers
from want of reading-rooms being compelled to read in the
dining-hall, or their bedrooms, or else take refuge in the can-
teen. He likewise pointed out the necessity that existed for
providing washing-rooms and decent utensils to wash in
for the soldiers. All these were of importance to the
health and comfort of the soldier, and, though apparently
trifling, were well worthy the attention of the Govern-
ment. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MONSELL sympathised with the kind wishes which
had been expressed for the comfort of the soldiers, but he
was sure hon. gentlemen must see how difficult it was to
carry out the views which had been put forth. In all the
new barracks the accommodation for married women had
been much improved, as, indeed, were the comforts of the
soldier generally ; but, in the case of the old barracks,
great difficulty was experienced in making the required
alterations.

Colonel GILPIN suggested that, as in the case of the
colour-sergeants, partitions might be put up for the benefit
of married soldiers.

Lord SEYMOUR said, it would appear that the house
had either been niggardly in supplying the wants of the
soldier, or that the money which it voted had been very
ill-spent. It was shown before the Committee on the Ord-
nance Estimates that great improvements had of late years
taken place in the accommodations of the soldier. It was
there stated that the accommodation had increased to that
extent that the cost of supplying it for the soldiers in bar-
racks amounted to 1001. a man. Now, if that was so, the
soldier should certainly be very well supplied and well
lodged. (Hear, hear.) They had been told that the sol-
diers had no means of washing themselves in barracks, but
he remembered that a large sum was voted for this very
purpose when the subject of lavatories was brought for-
ward by Lord Panmure, and there was a sum taken every
year for washing in the new barracks, so that, so far from
grudging good accommodation to the soldiers, the had been
most liberal on their behalf. (Hear.) No blame, there-
fore, attached to that house, though he was unable to say
how the accommodation had been carried out by the proper
officers. (Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. S. KNOX,
The vote was agreed to, as were the following :-
73,7191. salaries and contingencies of the Ordnance-office,
Pall-mall.

281,6451., salaries and contingencies of establishments in
the United Kingdom and the colonies.
162,3341., wages of artificers, labourers, and others, at
the several establishments in the United Kingdom and
colonies.

On the vote of 639,552/. for Ordnance stores for land
and sea service. .

Mr. MUNTZ suggested the postponement of this vote.
Mr. MONSELL said, that a postponement was impose
sible.

Mr. NEWDEGATE wished, in reference to that portion
of this vote which was for machinery and buildings for the
manufacture of small arms, to call the attention of the
house to a document which was signed by several of the
most respectable firms in Birmingham. Those who had
signed this document on behalf of the gun trade undertook,
if the Board of Ordnance would enter into a contract, to
supply 150,000 rifle muskets within eighteen months, in
addition to the orders already in course of execution. Now
if the Government proclaimed to tho gun trade that they
were to be cast aside, then it could not be expected that
they would make the exertions which they had done on
former occasions. It might be said that this document was
very well so far as it went, but that there was no guaran-
tee that its promises could be carried out. Now, from a
paper which had been published, it appeared that from
the year 1845 to 1849 the annual number of muskets
turned out was 274,000. The consequence 'of the present
system was this—that foreign soldiers, who were armed
from Birmingham, Were better supplied than those in our

own army. Much of the present feeling against Birming-
ham gunmakers had arisen from the conduct of the Messrs.
Lovell. Mr. Lovell, who presided at the establishment at
Enfield, had a son who was appointed inspector at Bir-
mingham, and this son, naturally perhaps desiring to raise
the importance of the place over which his father presi-
ded, had found fault with the anus furnished by Bir-
mingham houses where no blame justly attached. Mus-
kets had been returned as faulty which, upon being a
second time sent in, had been passed as correct. In
another instance 23,000 Minie rifles, which were furnished
by Birmingham, were crooked-sighted through the im-
proper conduct of the inspector. The real truth of the
matter was, that the Ordnance Board for many years was
asleep, while the French Government were taking every
means, aided by scientific men, to improve their arms. A t
length the board awoke, ordered a large quantity of Minie
rifles, but was so imperfectly, or rather improperly se-
conded by its own officer that these rifles had actually to
be returned, and almost re-manufactured, before they
were fit for use. Now, however, that a more proper in-
spector was appointed, the Government ought to pause and
consider before going to the expense of a largo establish-
ment, whether the existing manufacturers could not as
well or better supply their wants. If the hon. member
(Mr. Muntz) divided, he (Mr. Newdegate) should give him
his support.
Lord JOCELYN thought that the matter really before
the house was whether the present establishment could or
could not be consolidated and improved. That there was
room for improvement was manifest from the fact that,
after an improved rifle had been ordered, it was nearly
three years before the corps for which it had been ordered
were supplied with it. It appeared to him that the argu-
ment that had been used proved the advantage of having
but one establishment for the use of arms. And he believ-
ed that would enabl3 them to get rid of the establishment.
(Laughter.) He thought so because it would be such a
stimulus to private enterprise that great improvements
would be effected. He should support the Government in
this vote. _

Mr. MUNTZ observed that the Government had no ma-
nufactory now, all they had was a proof-house and a view-
house. Therefore, the effect would be just this : that Go-
vernment would take upon themselves the manufacture of
arms instead of their being manufactured at Birmingham.
The hon. gentleman said, American guns could be manu-
factured for 38s. ; but he could inform the hon. gentleman
that the same guns could be manufacturec in this country
for 20s. to 30s. ; but after all they were not Minie rifles.
Mr. GEACH said this was not entirely a question for
Birmingham, but whether the Government was to turn
manufacturer and put itself in competition with private
enterprise in a country where private enterprise had done
more than in any other country in the world.
The honourable gentleman, the Clerk of the Ordnance,
said it was necessary that Government should
take upon themselves to supply the arms, that they should
not depend on other parties to supply them, and he also
said it would be a pattern to the trade. Now, there was
no other Government that hada manufacture to give them
a pattern, and he believed that if manufacturers depended
on Government patterns they would not sit long in that
house, for a bankrupt was not entitled to sit in the house.
Nothing was more amusing to a manufacturer than to
walk through a Government establishment and to compare
it with his own, and at the same time to listen to the lau-
dations on the machinery, and to persons pointing out
what the manufacturers should do in order to be perfect.
The hon. gentleman had referred to a gentleman of scien-
tific acquirements who was to guide them. Why he (Mr.
Geach) was at a meeting of civil engineers months ago,
when this same gentleman -- (cries of " Name "—Mr. An-
derten, was speaking of the size of ships, and ho advised
them not to have very large ships, saying they would go
slower, and only serve to stow away more fuel. Well,
within two months there was landed the Himalaya, and.
the Government were now glad enough to avail them-
selves of the Himalaya to carry troops. She was the largest
ship that was ever built, the most effective, and the most
economical. The hon. gentleman had had but little expe-
rience in the department in which he was placed, but he
was made to feel all the inconveniences of the want of
supply. Everything was reported to him to show the de-
ficiency, but there might be explanations which, if they
were reported to him at the same time, would put a dif-
ferent complexion on the matter. If they once got one of
these Government establishments, they would never hear
of any difficulty ; the officers and men would believe it
was all perfection. If Government had exhausted all the
means for procuring a supply from private manufacturers
there might be some excuse for asking for a sum to esta-
blish a Government manufactory to compete with a large
trade; but they had not exhausted all those means. He
believed that if a merchant were to have on order for
10,000 stand of arms he would get them, where Government
by their system, had not been able to do so,
Mr. MONSELL thought the hon. gentleman who had
just sat down had misrepresented in several particulars the
proposal that he made to the house. For instance, he hail
spoken of Mr. Andertou, a gentleman with whom they
had nothing to do. The gentleman of whom he (Mr.
Monsell) spoke was Mr. Anderson. (A laugh) Then the
hon. gentleman said if Government had this establishment
they would let the thing go on, and would declare it the
most admirable thing in the world. The hon. gentleman
might not have been in the house when his had the honour
of bringing forward a proposition to improve the laboratory
and carriage department at Woolwich. That showed that
the laudations of which the hon. gentleman spoke were
not all shared in by the Government. Upon the question
of the cheapest manner of doing the Government work no
hon. gentleman had addressed one word. The hon. mem-
ber for Birmingham asked him if the musket manufactured
in America was an Indian rifle. He did not know, but it
was a celebrated rifle for the execution that it did. But
he altogether mistook him, for he (Mr. Monsell) rested his
case on the American rifle costing the American Govern-
ment only 375., and he stated that the calculation was that
our Government manufactory would manufacture it for
305., and that it would be as good or a better arm than
that which they now paid more than 31. for. If that were
the case, the hon. gentleman surely did not mean to main-
tain that there were public grounds for resisting the propo-
sition that he had submitted to the house. If an extraor-
dinary demand bad been made to them for arms, and if
there was a necessity for providing for that demand with
the least possible delay, and they could show to the house
that they could save some 700,0001. or 800,0001. of the
public money, he thought the house would have had good
reason to find fault with them if they had not made the
proposition, and he thought the house would be to blame
if they did not adopt the proposition. With regard to
Mr. Lovell, he was informed that the statement now made
by the hon. member (Mr. Newdegate) was made to Lord
Hardinge, when he was Master-General of the Ordnance.
That statement was considered by Lord Hardinge, and he
did not arrive at the decision that the hon. gentleman did.
By the proposed system they would get rid of the system
which the hon. gentleman complained of. The advantages
of the proposed system might be seen in a striking manner
by those who would take the trouble of referring to the
opinion of Mr. Whyford, in which he showed that the
stock was made and the whole musket got up in 25
minutes and a half. It was not merely a ques-
tion of getting the best arm in the shortest time, but it was
a question involving most material financial considerations.
By the course they suggested they would save a large sum
of money, and certainly the arm that would be produced
would be as perfect, if not better, than that produced at
Birmingham, and there would be the advantage that all
the different parts could be put in bags, and then taken
out and put together as exact as the machinery.
Lord SEYMOUR considered the question one of consi-
derable importance, and he was sorry it had been some-
what prejudiced by being brought forward as a local ques-
tion connected with Birmingham. The question of govern-
ment manufactories had come under the consideration of
committees of that house. It was brought under the
consideration of the committee on naval estimates, and
also the committee on the ordnance estimates ; and he be-
lieved he stated no more than was the opinion of several
members of the present Cabinet, when he said their general
opinion was that Government manufactories were not ad-
visable. It might be well, it was admitted, for Govern-
ment to have some small manufactories as a check on the
private producers, but no more than that. The general
system was to be by contract. As to the cheapness of Go-
vernment manufacture, was there any man in the house
who believed it? (Hear.) Would any member of the
Cabinet get up and say he believed in the cheapness of Go-
vernment manufactories? The only excuse for a Govern-
ment manufactory was, that they might get a good article;
they might be certain of the article, and, therefore, they
paid a great deal more to get it. Now, they were told by
the Clerk to the Ordnance that they were to establish a
large manufactory for the supply of muskets for the army.
It was always the interest of Government to produce
largely, and therefore it was the interest of Government in
this case to produce a large quantity in a short time. An
establishment was therefore to be created capable of mak-
ing 300,000 muskets in a year. (An Hon. Member, 150,000)
Then, what was to become of the workmen when they had
produced this quantity ? They would have to keep up a
great establishment without any work. Why, they all
knew that if machinery was not kept going it was a great
loss. Therefore, the next reason would be, " now we
have got the machinery, let us create a store. We used
to have a store at the Tower, which Was burned ; let us
have another." If it was for the present war the muskets
were required, he wanted to know when this establishment
would be at work ? Would the Clerk of Ordnance get up
and say he would undertake to produce 50,000 muskets
within two years ? If not, were they now looking forward
to and providing for some future war ? He told them that
improvements were now going on so rapidly that in four
or five years this musket would become obsolete. Then in
4 or 5 years their establishment would become obsolete.
He would, therefore, recommend the Government to post-
pone the proposal for a time ; and if the men refused to
work, or if there was anything unfair, he was sure the
house would give them the means of establishing a manu-
factory.
Colonel BOLDERO recommended the Government to
pursue a similar course to that which had been pursued
with regard to the manufacture of gunpowder • in which
case the ordnance department had manufacturedi from
10,000 to 12,000 barrels of gunpowder, and employed
four firms to manufacture from 2,000 to 3,000 barrels
each. This would afford the greatest facility for increas-
ing the supply without incurring unnecessary expense.
(Cries of " Divide.")
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, not-
withstanding the natural impatience of the committee at
that late hour (5 minutes past 12), he trusted the house
would allow him to say a few words. (Hear, hear.) Al-
though this was a vote on the ordnance estimates, and one,
therefore, for which his hon. friend (Mr. Monsell) was re-
sponsible, yet as the person immediately charged with the
care of the finances of the country, he should have been
deeply culpable had he allowed it to be proposed without
being entirely satisfied as to its propriety. The motives
which had induced the Government to adopt the proposal
were, in the first place, the extreme dearness of the arm
which was at present furnished to the forces ; in the
second place, the slowness with which that arm was
prepared ; and in the third place, the extreme uncertainty
of its manufacture. With respect to dearness, the pre-
sent cost of the rifle musket in this country was
31., whereas the cost of the rifle musket in America
was 11. 17s. An hon. gentleman had cried down the
quality of the American arms ; but he did not think he
would be supported in that opinion. The lesson which
they had received from Col. Colt. a private American,
corning over to England to show Englishmen how to work
in metals, was most important. The remark of the noble
lord behind him (Lord Seymour), that the government
ought not to be manufacturers, was received with loud
cheers. (Cheers.) He concurred in that as a general prin-
ciple; but there were certain cases in which nobody doubted
that they ought to be manufacturers. Nobody doubted,
for example, that they ought to continue the manufacture
of gunpowder, by which he believed it had been shown on
good authority that they had saved the country half a
million. There were certain specialities in certain cases,
and the question whether the government should manu-
facture or not in a particular case, was not to be settled by
general dicta on the subject, but by the consideration of
those specialities. He had stated that the cost of a musket
at present was 3/. The responsible department assured him
that it could be manufactured for 30s. Economy, however,
was not the only question in the case. There was the
question of rapidity ; and what said the Ordnance on that

point ? " The board ordered tenders to be issued for 2,000
carbines on an improved pattern on the 11th March last.
Not one of those carbines has yet been received into store."
Again, they were discussing one of the finest instruments
that could be made—an instrument requiring the most
minute precision ; and they had been told that night by
the hon. member for Warwickshire, that it was impossible
to attain this by anything but machinery, as the inspector
of small arms in Warwickshire had blundered in his in-
spection. The question was, then, whether they should
continue to have guns intended for her Majesty's forces
made by theinferior and obsolete processes of hand labour,
or whether they should have applied to the manufacture
the economy and precision of machinery ? The question
was one between hand labour and machinery ? It was ad-
mitted by the hon. member for Warwickshire that machi-
nery was employed in America for the manufacture of
arms which in this country were made by hand labour.
Mr. NEWDEGATE explained that what he had said,
was that no machinery could be superior to the best hand
labour.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he con-
tended that the muskets ought to be made by machinery.
Experience ought not to be overlooked in this matter. In
former wars this country had been obliged to go to Liege
and other places for a supply of arms. (Hear, hear.) As
regarded the question of expense, he really could not have
believed without investigation that in a matter so compa-
ratively trivial as the providing of small arms for her Ma-
jesty's forces it was possible to effect a saving of 800,0001.
or 900,0001. ; but that was the case as it stood on the esti-
mated difference between what they were now paying and
what they would have to pay under the new system. The
noble lord (Seymour) said they were going to make a pro-
vision for future wars. He was sorry to say that they
were making provision for a war which was now gathering
around them. (Hear.) The noble lord had asked most
properly when the factories would be in operation. They
would be in opecation within 12 months, and the Govern-
ment hoped in the course of the next year to obtain from
it a full supply of arms. He must say that, if censure
were due to the Government or to the ordnance depart-
ment, it was not for having made the proposition now, but
for not having made it at an earlier period. They had
been told that they would draw together a great number
of manufacturers and have sudden and uncertain demands,
and they were asked what they would do with these manu-
facturers when the sudden and uncertain demands ceased.
Now, he invited the attention of the house to this point,
for it was the kernel of the whole case. The hon. member
for Warwickshire said that, in order to enable private
trade to dis Charge contracts, it was necessary that the con-
tracts should be continuous. He begged the committee to
remember those words. Now he wanted to know how they
could secure a continuity of supply on a demand for arms ?
He wanted to know whose duty it was to maintain eco-
nomy in the public expenditure? He wanted to know who
could undertake to keep that outlay down in a time of war,
when arms were largely required, much less in a time of
peace ? Certainly the House of Commons could have no
difficulty in answering the third of these questions. Well,
then, to secure economy in the supply of arms, whether in a
time of peace or in a time of war, you must have the power
of sudden expansion and rapidity of manufacture, the two
great objects which were involved in the proposition before
the committee. Government then wanted the power of
sudden expansion, and the power of producing with all
possible certainty a large amount of arms within a certain
space of time, which could not be done by pottering—(a
laugh)—with private traders employing only hand labour.
That past experience proved, for whereas they had ordered
2,000 carbines as far bask as the 11th of last March, not
one of those carbines had been delivered in store up to this
very moment. But what was the case with regard to ma-
chinery ? Why it was the continuous supply that was
required ; but, " Oh," said the opponents of this plan,
" if you employ machinery, you will not only require to
keep it constantly in operation, but you will have to keep
a large staff of labourers." Now the latter part of this ob-
j ection applied certainly to the present system of private
trading, because there a large amount of skilled labour
had constantly to be kept on hand ; but in the case of ma-
chinery it was entirely different. For there, instead of
requiring 90 per cent. of skilled labour, all that would be
necessary would be 10 per cent. of skilled labour and 90
per cent. of unskilled labour ; and, while a small staff
only of skilled labourers would have to be kept in constant
employment, the Government in a time of pressure would
equally have at its command all the unskilled labourers of
the community. Now that was the precise state of the
case ; there was no desire to oppose the private trader,
but there was a desire to promote economy, and to secure
an efficient supply of arms—two objects which the Govern-
ment were convinced this plan would accomplish, or they
never would have invited the House of Commons to under-
take such an enterprise as that which was now proposed.
It would effect a large saving of public money, at the same
time place the country, not in a tolerable, but the best
possible position with regard to the supply of arms, and he
hoped therefore the House of Commons would not refuse
to back the Government in the performance of their duty
to the public. On the contrary, he trusted they would not
hesitate to give a decided vote in favour of the establish•
merit of a system, by which the country would obtain a
superior supply of arms at a much lower price and with
far greater certainty and more rapidity of delivery than
they could possibly hope to attain under the existing statse
of things. Government, however, did not wish the hou e
to pronounce any decision upon the point until it had been
put in possession of the means of acquiring information
upon it, and there would be no indisposition on their part
to refer the whole question to the consideration of a select
committee. For that purpose, therefore, the Government
would have no objection to postpone the vote for a month'
upon the understanding that when the committee was ap-
pointed it should sit from day to day until its investigation
was concluded, and in the meanwhile the Government
would upon their own responsibility undertake all the pre-
liminary proceedings necessary for the formation of such
an establishment as this vote contemplated.

Mr. AIUNTZ said the right hon. gentleman had certainly
made a most ingenious speech, but he had failed to alter or
grapple with the facts of the case. It seemed to him that
the right hon. gentleman knew nothing at all about the
subject. Hon. gentlemen opposite might cry " oh, oh,"
but did they know a'zything about it? He believed they
did not. The right hon. gentleman had told them that it
was a question between machinery and labour; but it was
no such thing, and he would prove it. Did hon. gentlemen
know anything about a fowling piece—had they ever used
one—had they ever shot with one ? Well, then, a fowling
piece was the result of the combined labour of man and
machinery, and what the Government proposed to do by
this plan was to obtain a similar species of arms by the
aid of machinery alone. But they could not do it. Al-
though, according to the right hon. gentleman's statement,
making a gun was like spinning cotton, you had only to put
the metal in at one end of the machinery, and the gun came
out of the other. But what did the right hon. gentle-
man know about such matters as gun making? Why no-
thing but what he obtained from his authority, the hon.
clerk of the ordnances who he really believed did not know
a gun from a pistol. (Roars of laughter.) It was said
these arms could be manufactured for 30s. each ; but the
house might rely upon it that the 30s. would become 505.,
as sure as the 100,0001. for the establishment of the manu-
factory would ultimately magnify itself into 500,0001.
(Hear.) He was therefore sorry that the right hon. gen-
tleman objected to his moderate proposal to delay the vote,
but he trusted the committee would support shim in the
amendment he had ventured to propose. (Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
object to postpone the vote for a month, and having made
that announcement, the right hon. gentleman went on to
read a passage from a report of the board of ordnance, by
which it appeared that during the late war this country
purchased no less than 293,000 stand of arms from foreign
manufacturers. (Hear.)
Mr. A. PELLATT addressed the committee amidst much
uproar and impatience. He observed that a great deal had
been said by the trade of Birmingham, and he wished to
say a few words with regard to that of London. There
had been made in London during the last ten years, no less
than 514,376 small arms, which gave an average of some-
thing. like 58,137 per annum, (Hear.) There were 1,900
workmen, and 18 houses, already engaged in the manufac-
ture of small arms in London ; and he understood that 8
or 10 of these houses had offered their services to the go-
vernment, but they had been rejected. (Hear.)
Mr. SPOONER strongly recommended his hon. friends
to accept the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Now the manufactories had a right to expect that more
time would have been afforded them for inquiry ; but per-
haps a month would be sufficient to establish on which side
the justice of the case rested. (Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. MIINTZ,
- - - -

Lord J. RUSSELL said it was not meant to bind down
the committee to sit every day ; but it was desirable that
they should sit de die in diem, in order that due deligence
might be used.
The vote was then withdrawn.
5?,9,522/. for ordnance stores.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS moved that the chairman should
report progress ; but after a remonstrance from Lord J.
RUSSELL, the vote was agreed to, and the house then re-
sumed.
Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice to move this day, that
the house should meet at two o'clock on Wednesday, and
then go on with the committee of supply.

CHURCH BUILDING ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
VALUATION (IRELAND) ACT AMENDMENT

BILL.

This bill was read a second time.
The house adjourned at ten minutes to one o'clock.

CHURCH-RATE CONTEST.—On Thursday last a vestry
was held in the parish church of Milton next Gravesend,
Kent, to make a rate. The parish churchwarden, after
stating the cost incurred in the repairs of the church in
the past year, and other legal expenses to be provided
for by a rate, moved that a church-rate of 3d. in the
pound be made to defray these expenses. This motion
gave rise to a stormy discussion. Some of the ratepayers
(dissenters and churchmen) suggested a voluntary con-
tribution to defray the charge, amounting to 1201., for
which a rate was demanded. This proposition was re-
pudiated by the churchwardens, and a division upon the
motion took place, at the end of which the church-
wardens demanded a poll, which terminated on Satur-
day in favour of the opponents of the rate by a majority
of 90, the numbers being, for the rate, 150 ; against
it, 240.
[ADVERTISEMENT.]—Fifty thousand Cures have been
effected by Du Barry's delicious Revalenta Arabica Food,
without medicine, inconvenience, or expense (as it saves
fifty times its cost in other remedies).— " Twenty-five years
nervousness, constipation, indigestion, and debility, from
which I had suffered great misery, and which no medi-
cine could remove or relieve, have been effectually cured
by Du Barry's Food in a very short time. W. R.
Reeves, Pool Anthony, Tiverton." "Eight years' dys-
pepsia, nervousness, debility, with cramps, spasms, and
nausea, for which my servant had consulted the advice
of many, have been effectually removed by Du Barry's
delicious food in- a very short time. I shall be happy
to answer any inquiries. Rev. John W. Flavel, Rid-
lington Rectory, Norfolk." "Three years' excessive
nervousness, with pains in my neck and left arm, and
general debility, which rendered my life very miserable,
has been radically removed by Du Barry's excellent
food. Alexs. Stuart, Archdeacon of Ross, Skibbereen."
—" Fifty years' indescribable agony from dyspepsia,
nervousness, asthma, cough, constipation, flatulency,
spasms, sickness at the stomach, and vomitings, has
been removed by Du Barry's excellent food. Maria Jolly,
Wortham Ling, near Diss, Norfolk." Copies of testi-
monials of 50,000 cures (including those of Lord Stuart
de Decies, Major-General Thomas King, Dre. Ure,
Shorland, and Harvey (gratis). In canisters, with full
instructions, 11b., 2s. 9d. ; 21b., 4s. 6d. ; 51b., lls. ;
121 b., 225. ; super-refined, 51b., 225. ; 101 b., 335. The
101 b. and 121 b. carriage free. Barry Du Barry and Co.,
77, Regent-street, Lontion ; also, Fortnum, Mason, and
Co., purveyors to her Majesty, Piccadilly. k

Ertitr, brttton+

SUN OFFICE, Screen o'clock.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS-(THIS EVENING.)

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

The Duke of ARGYLL presented petitions from
Scotland against the support of Popery, also in favour
of a national system of education in that country.
Earl GREY presented a petition from the Newcastle
Chamber o fCommerce, 'praying for the formation of a
harbour of refuge on the coast of Northumberland.
The Earl of EGLINTON presented a petition from
a place in Scotland in favour of the maintenance of the
parochial education in that country.

THE MILITIA FOR IRELAND.

The Earl of WICKLOW inquired whether it was the
intention of the Government to propose during the pre-
sent session any measure for embodying the Irish mi-
litia; and if so, whether they proposed to form it under
the old system established during the war, or under
that adopted during the peace ? _ _

The Earl of ABERDEEN said a bill would be intro-
duced this session in the other house by which power
would be taken to modify the existing law respecting
the militia in England. By that law power was given to
extend the 80,000 men which had been raised to 120,000.
It was now proposed to vary that and apply the act to
Ireland. The Government intended to embody in Ire-
land a militia of 30,000 men, and in Scotland a militia of
10,000 men. It was, however, not proposed to embody
the Irish militia this year.
LEASING POWERS (IRELAND) PILL.

The Earl of DONOUGIEVIORE moved the s'lcond
reading of this bill. Ho stated that this, and the
Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Bill, the second read-
ing of which he would also move, were the same, with
some minor exceptions, as those introduced into this
house last session. The noble earl entered into an ex-
planation of the main provisions of the bill, which he
observed had been carefully framed, so as to obviate any
interference with the rights of property.
[LEFT SITTING.]

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(THIS EVENING.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
SECOND READINGS.
The following private bills were read a second time
and ordered to be committed :—Chapel-en-le-Frith
Roads ; London and North Western Railway (Hayden
Square, &c.) ; Great Southern and Western Railway ;
Shrewsbury and Chester Railway (Sale or Lease) ;
Thirsk and Yam Road.
Mr. E. BALL presented a petition from Cambridge
praying the house to a adopt a system of decimal
coinage.
Mr. BOUVERIE presented t etition with the same
prayer from the borough and wn council of Car-
marthen.
Mr. 0. STANLEY presented a petition from 300
electors of Carmarthen, praying for reform in the elec-
tive system.
VENTILATION OF THE HOUSE.
On the motion that the house at its rising should ad-
journ till two o'clock to-morrow,
Mr. SPOONER called the attention of house
to the abominable state of ventilation of the house.
(Hear, hear.) He spoke feelingly, for the air that was
" pumped" into the house and for which they had paid
some 200,0001. was so filled with dust that it brought
on an attack upon him from which he was now suffering.
If the matter were not attended to he certainty would
move for a committee to inquire into the matter. 'le
could find them places in the house freezing in one car.
ner and scorching in another. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. W. PATTEN also bore testimony to the bad
state of the ventilation.
Mr. HUME said if Mr. S. Gurney had an oppor-
tunity of carrying out his views as to the ventilation of
the house, he would for a very small expense put
house in a good condition as regarded ventilation. Pro-
bably public money never was so squandered as had
Leen the case in this matter, and he hoped it would be
taken up by th 6 proper authorities. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MUNTZ said this was another instance of the
evil effects of the Government undertaking the duties of
a factory. (Laughter.)
Mr. BOUVERIE said a good deal of the difference
of opinion that existed on this subject was owing to the
different conditions in which hon. members came into
the house. Some hon. members came in after having a
good dinner and a fair share of wine, and they com-
plained that the house was intolerably hot, while those
• who had been in the house for some hours were chilled.
He himself had sat as many hours last session in this
house as any hon. member, not even excepting the
Speaker, and if the ventilation had been so very bad as
was said, he would have suffered more from it than he
certainly had suffered. (Hear, hear.)
PRIVATEERING.
Mr. M. GIBSON gave notice that on this day week
he should move that an address to the Crown be pre-
sented praying her Majesty not to grant letters of
marque to any vessel.
VINE DISEASE.
Mr. SPOONER asked if the Government had re-
ceived any report relative to the rumoured failure of
the vine crop in various wine growing countries.
Mr. CARDWELL said the Government received
such reports, and had no objection to produce them.
Mr. SPOONER then moved that the reports re-
ferred to be laid upon the table.
Agreed to.
RUSSIA AND THE INDIAN PRINCES.
Mr. LIDDELL asked if an alliance, defensive and
offensive, had been concluded between the Czar of
Russia and the gleans of Bokhara and Khiva, and the
King of Cabool.
Sir C. WOOD replied that he believed there was no
truth whatever in this report.
UNSTAMPED PUBLICATIONS.
Mr. LUCAS wished to ask the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer whether it. is the intention to acquiesce in the
verdict given in the Court of Exchequer in Dublin in the
ease of Mr. Shaw's Penny Commercial Journal. In
this case the jury found a verdict for the defendant
If the Government did not acquiesce in the verdict, was
it the intention of the Government to enforce their no-
tion of the law with reference to The Builder and The
Athenceurn.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Government did not intend to acquiese in the verdict,
but it would be premature to answer the other question.
ACCIDENTS IN MINES.
Mr. CALEY enquired if the Under-Secretary of
State for the Home Department had received any in-
formation of the recent coal mine accident in Wigan.
Mr. FITZROY said his attention had been drawn to
this lamentable occurrence, and a Government officer
had been sent down to attend the inquest.
LAW OF BRIBERY.
Sir F. KELLY wished to ask the noble lord the
member for the city of London when he intended
to proceed with his bill for the consolidation of the law
of bribery.
Lord J. RUSSELL would answer the question to-
morrow.
CONVENTUAL ESTABLISHMENTS.
Mr. T. CHAMBERS then rose to move for a select
committee to inquire into the number and rate of in-
crease of conventual and monastic institutions in the
United Kingdom, and the relation in which they stand
to existing law ; and to consider whether any, and, if
any, what further legislation is required on the subject.
He brought this subject forward in a civil, social, and po-
litical sense, and not as a religious question. He should
endeavour to avoid exciting any religious animosity by
confining his arguments to facts which he had obtained
from the Roman Catholic registry. According to that
authority there were 75 convents in England, and 128
in Ireland, making in all 203 convents. The
same authority told him that in 1843 there were only 53
of these institutions in Great Britain and Ireland, thus
showing the enormous increase of 400 per cent.
within ten years, and proving the absolute ne-
cessity for an immediate inquiry into their cha-
racter. (Hear.) In January, 1853, there were in
existence no less than 72 monasteries in Ireland, while
in 1843 there were not more than 60 ; in other words,
there had been an increase upon the ten years of 20 per
cent. in monasteries. Now that was a very grave fact,
and one which ought to be inquired into and investigated
by a country professing the Protestant faith without
offending the followers of the Roman Catholic Church.
It was a mistake to suppose that the Roman Catholic
laity were opposed to such an inquiry, although some of
them might be, and he hoped there would be no objec-
tion to his motion on that ground. Many of these in-
stitutions were opposed to the spirit of the English law
as established by acts of Parliament, they had been esta-
blished, indeed, in open violation of the existing statute
law, and on that accounthe contended there ought to be
some inquiry into their numbers or character. Monas-
tic establishments were decidedly at variance with
the law, while as for convents they stood in the highly
inconvenient and inexpedient situation of having no re-
lations whatever to the law. They were neither ignored
things
g sr e
cc
oo gnid u
ld s e
not b y the
be
permitted
any as
lo
nsguecrht
oa
os tnatti en
uoef
he thought that was an additional reason why the
enquiry he asked for ,Should be had. (Hear.) But,
besides their numbers, there was much danger in the
manner in which these convents were conducted ; for
many of the inmates were confined in them in
opposition to the wish of their parents or
their own will. (Hear.) He could say nothing
about the doctrines taught in these conventual estab-
lishments, though they were certainly none of the
soundest ; but he thought, upon political grounds
alone, the house was bound to institute the in-
quiry to ascertain the treatment the inmates were
subject to which history proved was both coercive and
severe. Convents were places of restraint or infliction,
where the most excruciating torments were practised
upon the nuns and novices, and it was an abuse of social
and political right to allow them to remain longer in
this country without investigation.
[LEFT SPEAKING.]

THE LONDON GAZETTE.

(THIS EVENING.)

ST. JAMES'S-PALACE, FEB. 2t
The Queen has been pleased to appoint Commander
Robert Tench Bedford, R.N., to be one of the Gentlemen
Ushers Quarterly Waiters in Ordinary to her Majesty, in
the room of Sir John Strachan, Bart., deceased.

WHITEHALL, Feb. 25.
The Qneen has been pleased to appoint General the
Right Hon, Viscount 'larding°, G.C.8,; Lieut,•General

the Right Hon. Lorl Raglan, G.C.B. ' • the Right Hon.
Earl Grey; Lieut.-General the Right Hon. Earl Cath-
cart, K.C.B. • the Right Hon. Lord Panmure, K.T. ;
Lieut.-General the Right Hon. Lord Seaton, G.C.B. ;
the Right Hon. Sidney Herbert; the Right Hon.
Sir John Somerset Pakington, Bart. ; the Right Hon. Ed-
ward Ellice ; Colonel George Buller, C.B. ; and Colonel
William Thomas Knollys, to be her Majesty's Commis-
sioners for inquiring into the several modes of promotion
and retirement in her Majesty's Military Forces.
CROWN-OFFICE, FEB. 25.

MEMBER RETURNED TO SERVE IN THE PRESENT PARLIA-

MENT.

County of Cardigan.—The Right Hon. Earnest Augustus
Earl Lisburne, of Croswood Park, in the county of Car-
digan, in the room of William Edward Powell, Esq., who
has accepted the office of Steward of her Majesty's Manor
of Northstead.

COUNTRY MARKETS.

CHELMSFORD—Fits. 24.

Prices to-day were as follow :—Whcat, white, old 70s to
to 85s Od, new 70s to 85s ; red, old 58s to 80s, new 619 to
80s ; barley, 28s to 36s ; chevalier, 35s to 40s ; grindin7,
21s to 30s ; malt, 61s to 65s ; chevalier, 64s to 70s ; oats,
22s to 29s ; peas, partridge, 40s to 45s ; white, 48s to 50s
boiling 55s to 61s ; dun, new, 41s to 41s ; beans, tick, 4Cs
to 42s ; Harrow ticks, 38s to 44s ; Mazagan, 38s to 41s.

COLCHESTER —FEB. 25.
We had a better demand for wheat to-clay, and prices
must be noted is to 2s per qr. dearer. Barley was also
dearer, say is per qr. on every description. Beans and
peas were not much in request, and no change in value
from last week.

Prices to-day were as follow :—Wheat, white, 80s to DOs ;
red, 768 to 84s ; barley, 40s to 46s ; oats, 26s to 303 ; beans,
Mazagan, 40s to 44s ; middle and small, 413 to 583; peas,
white, 60s to 64s ; grey, 46s to 50s.

COAL MAR.
Prices of Coal per ton at t'
s. d. s. d.
Buddle W.' Hartley 22 0 Longridge's Wst Hartley2l 6
Carr's Hartley 2l 6101 d Aclairs l9 0
Chester Main 19 6, 'Canfield Moor Butes 20 0
Da7ison's West Hartley 21 6' West Hartley 22 0
fluting's Hartley 22 0 Cowpen 25 0
Hartlepool West Hartley ,2u 6

MT.—FEE. 27.
the close of the market :

Ships at market ...

;31Sold G4

[ADVERTISEMENT.]—Holloway's Ointment and Pills
certain remedies for Old Sores and Ulcers.—Copy of a
letter from Mr. John Johnson, of Tregaron, Wales,
dated December 19, 1853 :—" To Professor Holloway,
Sir,—For twelve years I was afflicted with sores on my
legs and arms, which gradually broke out into ulcerous
wounds, and disabled me from following any of the
active duties of life. I tried a variety of medicines,
and applied several liniments, without benefit ; but a
friend recommended me to use your ointment and pills,
which completely healed tha wounds and restored me
health, after every other means had failed."—Sold by
all druggists, and at Professor Holloway's Establish•
went, 244, strand, London.

i i

.. .~

...4 mom% emiNlolll.

SPORTING NOTES..

SAYINGS AT STRETFORD.

The information which I have gathbred from the
"Manchester men" respecting the Liverpool Steeple-
chase is scarcely sufficient to compensate me for the
trouble and fatigue of the long and tedious journey by
the night mail train. The betting fraternity .here en-
dently hold divided opinions respecting the two leading
favourites, Miss Mowbray and Bourton—the horse hiv-
ing perhaps the largest number of supporters. His
warmest partizans declare, and with a good allow of
reason too, that he is a stone better than when he was
defeated by Oscar at Warwick, and that he will "turn
the tables on his old opponents assure as he is a horse."
The extra half-mile, however, will, I fancy, lbe the
greatest drawback from Bourton's success. B asides,
too, the character of the ground at Aintree has, been
rendered unusually severe. I am informed—whether
credibly or not I am unable to determine--that
at the desire of the Miss Mowbray party, the land has
in parts been ploughed a fresh, and that an ineretased
"stiffishness" has been given to the different leaps.
Last night, Miss Mowbray and Oscar were at Bir-
mingham, en route to Aintree. Both are said to lx) in
the finest bloom of condition ; Oscar, in particular, is
greatly admired. To day, a growing disposition was
evinced to back him, and at 15 to 1. many investments
were made. This movement exercised a depressing
effect on Miss Mowbray, whose backers evidently
"doubted, yet doated," and appeared to let I dart • not
wait upon I would. Indeed, respecting him and Miss
Mowbray much perplexity and uncertainty exists, and
some persons do not hesitate to declare that a do able
game is being played with them.
Believing that the running will be regulated by fair
play, Ido not feel inclined to alter my opinion reape •
ing the snperiority of Miss Mowbray's chance. Shou Id,
however anything occur to prevent her success, Bourt‘on
may achieve the victory. Spring, Bedford, and Crabs
are the best of the outsiders, my opinion as to their re-
spective chances being in accordance with the order in
which I have set down their names.

It is somewhat difficult to indicate accurately the pro-
bable starters ; but, as Mr. Bucket would say, from in-
formation I have received, I am induced to believe
that the. field will comprise the following horses

Age st lb Age st lb
Peter Simple a 12 0 Spring 6 9 10
Bourton a 11 12 Napoleon 11. 5 9 10.
Oscar
Miss Mowbray
Peter
Half-and-Half ... a 10 8 Cockcrow
Abd-el-Kader alo 6 Labyrinth
Bedford (h b) a 10 4 Forest Lad a 9 S
La Gazza Ladra... a 10 0 Timothy
Lady Arthur a 9 10 Squire of Matto?' a 9 41
Maurice Daley
Star of England... a 9 10 Burnt Sienna a 8 1' Z
The doubtful starters are printed in italics. _ , 1

The sport at Stretford requires no particular con, t-
ment. It was seemingly got up to afford the Ida,ncheste r
men an opportunity for enjoying a half holiday. Tb be
first race was decided -at about twenty minutes pat t
three, and the last not until nearly dusk.
Manchester, Monday Night.

A FRESH MAN.

ARRIVALS AT LIVERPOOL.

STEEPLECHASE.—Peter Simple, Bourton, Oscar, Mie.
Mowbray, Peter, Half-and-Half, Bedford, La Ganz*
Ladra, Maurice Daley, Cockcrow, Kilquade, Labr
rinth, Comeaway, Crabbs, Burnt Sienna, Royalty,,,'
Timothy, Faugh-a-Ballagh gelding, Spring, and Trout.
Abd-el-Kader is scratched.

FOR OTHER RACES.—Alonzo, Juliet, Cripple, Ar
dromache, Warwick, Songster, Yewtick, and Kilquad,

SPOETING INTELLIGENCE.

TATT'ERSALL'S.—MONDAY.
Speculation on the Liverpool Grand National was
carried on with considerable spirit.
_ _

The horses in most demand were Crabbs and Half
and-Half ; the former at 100 to 8, 11 to 1, and finally 10
to 1, and the latter at 12 and 11 to 1. Crabbs was,
however, much the stronger of the two.
Bourton was very firm at the odds quoted, but Miio ;
Mowbray was evidently tottering : 600 to 100 was 1a.4
in one bet. Some money was put on Cockcrow at 20 t-4
1, and two or three poneys were intrusted to Burnt. t
Sienna at 25 to 1. Peter's average price was about 104 )
to 6.

METROPOLITAN STAKES.-500 to 25 taken about Mas
covite, and 625 to 25 about Rataplan. Nothing else 3
mentioned.
CHESTER CUP.—Newminster was backed for 501. a t
20 to 1, odds which were repeatedly offered against Th 4
Star of Surrey, who appears to have reached the caluni -
niating point, and is beginning to grow dim.
Two THOUSAND GUINEAS STAKES.—A slight reactioi
took place with regard to Boiardo-400 to 100 was
booked.

DERBY.—Autocrat was still suffering from the bloves
which had been recently dealt upon him at the club. 6
to 1 was now and then taken, but only to a compart
►-
tively small amount. The opposition which he has e: c-
perienced may, however, be only a ruse de course. Kin g
Tom was backed for upwards of 350/. at 7 to 1, ai,,sd
Dervish improved a point or two ; after 15 to 1 had be en
laid to 501., 14 to 1 was taken to the like sum ; 1,000 to
50 taken about Ruby ; 550 to 25 Acrobat ; 400 to /0
twice, and 1,000 to 30 Marsyas ; 2,000 to 50 Beaeus, ;
and 1,250 to 25 The Early Bird.
CLOSING PRICES.
LIVERPOOL GRAND NATIONAL STEEPLECHASE.
6to 1 agst Miss Mowbray (taken).
7to 1 agst Bourton (taken).
10 to 1 agst Crabbs (12 to 1 taken freely).
11 to 1 agst Half-and-half (taken).
12 to 1 agst La Gazza Ladra (taken).
14 to 1 agst Maurice Daley (taken).
15 to 1 agst Oscar (taken).
16 to 1 agst Peter (taken).
20 to 1 agst Cockcrow (taken).
20 to 1 agst Lady Arthur (taken).
25 to 1 agst Burnt Sienna.
40 to 1 agst bI gby Faugh-a-Ballagh (taken).
GREAT METROPOLITAN STAKES.
20 to 1 agst Muscovite (taken).
25 to 1 agst Rataplan (taken)
CHESTER CUP.
20 to 1 agst Newminster (taken).
20 to 1 agst Star of Surrey (offered).
THE TWO THOUSAND.
4to 1 agst Boiardo (taken).
DERBY.
9to 2 agst Autocrat (5 to 1 taken).
7to 1 agst King Tom (taken freely ).
14 to 1 agst Dervish (taken).
20 to 1 agst Ruby (taken).
•
22 to 1 agst Acrobat (taken).
33 to 1 agst Marsyas (taken).
40 to 1 agst Bessus (taken).
50 to 1 agst The Early Bird (taken).

THE GOODWOOD STUD.—We regret to find that the
Duke of Richmond's determination to break up his
racing establishment is finally made. The horses Aire
advertised to be sold at Tattersall's on Monday, Mau►&h
13.