The Sun.
London, England, 1838-06-07 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY, JUNE 7, 1534

of so much surprise. But he would venture to say that such
a:tato of ignorance did not exist in any part of Ireland. He
wished to ask the Noble Lord opposite whether suchigno-
rance did not prove to him that, though there was a Church
called the people's Church, those who officiated therein had
paid very little attention either to the moral or religious in-
terests of the people ?—(Cries of " Question, question," and
" Chair, chair.") He (Mr. H.) would fearlessly assert, not-
withstanding the cries on the other side of the House, that that
was the question.---( Cheers.)
Sir E. KNATCHBULL did not rise to order, but to
appeal to the good sense of the Hon. Member. At present
there existed a strong feeling on the subject throughout the
country, and those who were necessarily engaged in the un-
fortunate affair, would as necessarily have to undergo
a scrutiny as to their conduct, and their character must
yet come before the public. He would put it to
the good feeling of the Hon. Gentleman whether, under such
circumstances, it would not be better to postpone any observati. ns
on the case which were not absolute!y necessary.—(Cheers. )
Mr. HUME did not wish to mention the name of or allude
to a single individual. It was of the system that he coni-
pla;ned—a system which left Englishmen in a state
of brutal and disgraceful ignorance.—( Hear.) He had very
frequently called the attention of the House and of the Go-
vernment to the absolute necessity of educating the people.
He rose for the purpose of doing so again, now that the atten-
tion of all was directed to all. It seemed as if it we e only by
such occasicns, lamentable as they were, that sufficient attention
would be aroused to the absolute necessity of a comprehensive
system of education for the people, fir he attributed the whole
of what had taken place to the state of brutal ignorance in
which they were left. He would say no more upon the sub.
ject than that he regretted to see a Clergyman of the Church
of England taking the field.--( Loud cries of " Oh, oh.")
Twenty years ago he had stated . that if the names of
clergymen were entirely left out of the Commission of the
Peace it would be much more for the peace of thesountry.—
( Oh, oh.) He had iisen to ask the Noble Lord if he did not
think the facts of the case did not impress upon the Govern-
ment and the House the necessity of no longer delaying a mea-
sure of education ? He could not sit down without comment-
ing upon the great readiness of Gentlemen opposite to put
down all observations upon the conduct of clergymen—they
were public servants, and their conduct was fairly open to oh-
servation.—( Oh, oh.)
Mr. WYNN did not wish to prolong the conversation,
but ho regretted that an Hon. Member had so impro-
perly dragged in, upon this occasion, an irrelevant
allusion to the conduct of the clergymen of the Church
of England, who had the strongest claims upon the respect of
all classes of the people in this country. The Honourable
Member for Kilkenny had attributed those melancholy trans-
actions to the want of education amongst the people. But
he (Mr. Wynn) Niched to remind the House that the fol-
L>weTs of Richard Brothers and Johanna Southcote were not
confined to the lower orders alone, but included persons of the
highest attainments, and the most excellent education.—
( Hear, hear.) The best education would not prevent the most
delusive influence upon religious subjects.—( Hear, hear.)
CHAPLAINS OF THE HOUSE.
Loud J. RUSSELL appeared at the bar with her Majesty's
answer to the address of the House respecting three of their
late chaplains. Her Majesty stated that she would take into
consideration the best means for effecting the wishes of her
faithful Commons on this subject--the prayer of the Address
having been that benefices should be conferred upon the Rev.
Gentlemen in question.
WATERLOO ANNUITIES.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER laid upon
the table certain rapers respecting the Waterloo Annuities,
and their transfer to the management of the Commissioners of
the National Debt. 961,0001. had been vested in trustees,
for pensions to the widows of soldiers killed, and to soldiers
wounded, at the battle of Waterloo. The trustees now wished
the Government to manage the future permanency of the
arrangements. This was the object of a Bill which he (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) had introduced (so we under-
stood).
TITHE COMMUTATION.

Mr. LEFEVRE gave notice of a motion for leave to
bring- in a Bill on the subject of Tithe Commutation.
DECCAN PRIZE MONEY.

Mr. HUME gave notice of a mo:ion for returns with re-
gard to the Deccan Prize Money.
SLAVERY.

Me. BAINES gave notice that he would draw the
attention of the House to an Order in Council of
the 25th of April, in the year 1828, for the securing of a
more adequate supply of food to the apprentices of British
Guiana, and a more correct classification of such negroes,
with a view to effect similar objects in other British colonies.
WOODSTOCK ELECTION.

Sir
J. GRAHAM rose to present a petition from
William Gray, the agent of the Marquis of Blandford, one
of the sitting Members for Woodstock. The petition arose out of
the provisions of 9 Geo. IV., respecting controverted elections.
The section provides that five days at least before the day ap-
pointed for the consideration of such petition, the lists of
objections shall be exchanged by the parties, and conformably
to that section the officer of the House had appointed a place
for depositing such lists, namely, " a room adjoining the Com-
mittee Clerk's office, in St. Stephen's-court, New Palace Yard,"
and that attendance should be given "on the 22d, 23d, 24th,
and 25th of January, from twelve o'clock till four, and on the
26th and subequent days (Sundays excepted) from eleven in
the forenoon tilt the end of the day, that is to say, twelve
o'clock at night as shown by the clock in the office." He
would row shortly state the allegations in this petition.
It appeared that on the evening of the first of June
( Friday last), William Gray, the agent of the sitting Member,
sent his list of objections by two clerks, whose names were spe-
cified, to the room appointed by the clerk, namely, the room
adjoining the Committee Clerk's office. They state that
they arrived there at a quarter before twelve o'clock—
that they found the room open—that they saw the direc.
tion on the door of the room—that they Cound a lamp
burning and desks in the room, but no person there ; they
were aware that twelve o'clock was the limited point of time at
which the list was to be deposited; they stayed for some few
minutes, but considering the lapse of time they became
alarmed ; they then went to the lobby of the House, and saw
two messengers, one of whom was asked where the clerk was
that ought to receive the list. The messenger informed him
that although in the first six weeks of the Session it
was usual for the clerk to attend till twelve o'clock,
since the lapse of that time it had not been usual
for the clerk to attend after eight o'clock. On
receiving this information the clerks returned to the agent.
He told them instantly to return to the House, and endeavour
in some other room to find a clerk to whom to deliver the
lists. They instantly returned, but before they arrived it was
half-past twelve. Finding the room closed, and that
it was impossible to deliver the list, they inserted
it under the door of the room, and went away. On
the following morning the agent himself came to the
House as early as ten o'Clock, before any of the Clerks had
arrived, and in point of fact the delivery was not made till 11
o'Clock. The agent for the sitting Member communicated to the
agent for the petitioner the circumstances which he ( Sir J. G.)
received from the agent for the petitioner, he had no
Cad narrated to the House, and from the answer which he
doubt
that a formal and technical objection would be taken that
these lists were not delivered within the " five days at
least" prescribed by the Act of Parliament. He did not
think it necessary to enter into any technical argument of the
meaning of the words " five clear days previously"—that was a
question open to argument. The sitting Member was anxious
to shew that there was nothing like concealment on his part
of the facts of the case, and to show that everything which
caution prescribed was done by him, and if any error arose
it was not his fault. If, under these circumstances, the
defence of the seat was defeated, it would be
owing to
occurrences for which the sitting Member was not responsible. •
No one objected more than himself to the introduction of
such matters in the whole House, as it forestalled the con-
sideration wh:ch the case required before a Committee,
He regretted also being obliged to bring the matter forward
the day preceding that on which the petition was to be taken
into consideration ; but it arose from the circumstances which
he had stated. He confessed he had some difficulty in knowing
precisely the course he ought to take. He had found no case
exactly analogous to the present. His first proposition, how-
ever would be, that the parties making the statement should
be heard at the bar of the House, and if the facts were
established, he would then move that the order for taking
the petition against the return for Woodstock be:discharged,
for the purpose of fixing it for the Tuesday following. In all
cases of postponement the rule was that fresh lists should be
again exchanged between the parties, and that could be done if
the House assented to the proposition in the present instance.
He had now stated the facts simply, and upon that statement
he trusted the House would allow the petition to be laid upon
the table.

The petition was then read at length by the Clerk at the
table.

Sir J. GRAHAM said he would move that Wm. Gray
be called in, to give evidence as to the facts of the
case. If, however, a doubt existed as to the propriety
of acceding to the motion with which he meant to follow
that up—the postponement of the Ballot till Tuesday—it might
be well to argue the question first.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL doubted whether the
House had the power to interfere, and still more if it were
expedient to interfer... The case was allowed to be unparalleled,
and he considered it would establish a most dangerous pre-
cedent to accede to the application. The question would come
before the Committee; at the same time it mightbe proper to
hear the facts first, and to call the Clerk of the House before
it, to see if he abused his powers.
Mr. C. W. WYNN observed that into the doubtful ques-
tion whether the Committee had the right to decide as to the
proper time fur receiving the lists he should not eater, though
he admitted, if it were decided in the alternative, they (the
Committee) ought not to be biassed by a decision of the whole
House. On the whole, however, he thought the House might
grant the indulgerce which was asked.
Mr. O'CONNELL—If ho thought the Committee had
the power to decide this question he should resist the present
motion, because he thought there was no body more incom-
petent to act judicially than that House. But lie felt bound
to look at the statute law, which prescribed that the lists
should be delivered five days before the case was taken into
consideration, and to admit that if the omission in the present
case was caused by the neglect of the clerks, the House was
bound to afford a remedy for an infraction of the law resulting
from the conduct of its own officer.—( Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. AG LIONBY,
Mr. Wm. Gray was called in and examined.
In answer to Sir J. GRAHAM—Was employed by the
Marquis of Blandford ; returned to London from Wood-
stock on Friday, the lot of June ; had a consultation that
day with his Lordship's law advisers for the purpose of
settling the list of objections ; the list was completed
about a quarter past eleven at night ; delivered it then to