The Sun.
London, England, 1838-04-27 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

110 USE OF COMMONS, API:IL 26.
In consequence of the ballots for the Great Yarmouth and
Stirlingahiro Committees (the Norfolk went off, we under-
stand), the gallery was not open till half past four.
Several private Bills were advanced a stage, and some peti-
tions presented, which, owing: to the noise in the House w"
Were tvholly unable to catch.
LONDON GRAND JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL
Mr. CRA WFO R D presented a petition from the London
and Birmingham Railway CtAnpany, against any further Vi
tensiott 91 the powers of the Grand Junction Railway r_nipany.
Mr. H UTT presented a Petitiva f!'" :n Marilebonc and
Camden-town, to the sA..:*MI Zfiect.
The Noise in the House was here so loud, that
The SPE AKER said—There really is no possibility of
carrying on the business of the House : nothing can be beard.
Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a petition in favour of the
Bill. The Hon. Member then moved its second reading.
Mr. HALL felt it his duty to oppose the second reading of
the Bill ; and he would, as shortly as possible, state the ob-
jeetions on which he grounded that opposition. A
few years age a Bill was passed, enabling the Grand
Junction Railway Company, to make the terminus of
their rail Way in Skinner-street, London. He would
be able to show the House that no steps had been
taken towards the prosecution of the powers vested in the
Company from the time the Bill had passed, down to the pre-
sent time. The line of road through which the railroad was
intended to run consisted of property of the most valuable
description, and although the line was only 21 miles long
the sum required to purchase the property would b:
at least 250,000/. He was prepared further to show,
that last year when the accounts were audited they
only had 5,000/. or 6,000/. in hand, and in the month
of December last, that sum had dwindled down to
5001. It had been stated by their engineer, that it would
require 600,0001. to complete the line, and under such cir-
cumstances it was quit° absurd for the projectors to come
down to that House and ask for further powers, when
they bad made no use of those entrusted to them,
and when it was utterly impossible for them to raise
anything like the sum required. The Railway was well known
in the city,, not by the name of the Grand Junction ; but it
went under the title of the Grand Humbug Railway, and busi-
ness was done on it on the Stock Exchange under the name of
the Humbug Company. Under these circumstances he should
most decidedly oppose the Bill, and he should moue as an
amendment that the Bill be read a second tiu-c this day six
months.

STIRLINGSBIK: ELECTION.
Mr. CHALMERa'3 here appeared at the bar, with a re-
duced list of the Committee to try the merits of the pe-
tition against the return for Stiriingshire, and the
names were called over by the Clerk at the table as
follows ;--Hon. H. R. Wcstenra, John R. Rundle, Wil-
liam Pinney, General Sharpe, H. D. Baillie, H. G. Ward,
A. Chapman, Mark Phillips, George Wilbraham, John A.
Yates, Captain Chetwvnd.
LONDON JUNCTION RAILWAY.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE submitted to the House that the
Honourable Member for Marylebone had made out no case for
postponing. the second reading of the Bill for six months. It
was not a Bill to establish a new railroad. His Honourable
Friend, the Member for Marylebone, had stated that the
Company had not taken any steps to carry on their
Bill. Now the fact was that eleven thousand two hundred
shares had been subscribed for ; 40,0001. had been paid ; and
large sums had been expended in the purchase of lands, and
all that the parties asked for was two years to complete their
purchases. His lion. Friend, the Member for Mary_
lebone, had stated that this Company was known upon the
Stock Exchange, not by the name of theGranl Junction Rail-
way Company, but the Grand Humbug Company. He was not
aware whether that was so or not ; but he was induced:to think
that some one had humbugged his Hon. Friend, in inducing
him to make that statement to the House.—(Laughter.) He
trusted, therefore, that the House would allow the Bill to go
into Committee, where it might he shown whether the measure
was entitled to the character his Hon. Friend had given it,
He (Mr. D.) felt convinced that the measure was g bf
great utility, or he would not have supported it,
Sir R. INGLIS trusted that the. HonLurable Member for
Nlarylebene would persevere in his motion, that the Bill was
not entitled to the sanction of that House. For his
own part he must have far more satisfactory statements
than had been made by the Honourable Member for
Finsbury, before he could be itidwcod to give his sanction to
the Bill, A Bill for the fqrmatioa of this Company had been
passed no less than two years ago, and out at' the capital of
600,0001., not more than 10,0001, had been laid out in
the purchase of land for the purposes of the Com-
pany. Under such circumstances, he ounsidered that
they were not in a position to call upon the House to
give them additional powers. He should, therefore, second
the tuition of the Hon. Member for Marylebone, that the Bill
should be read a second time that day six months, and he
trusted that he would divide the House upon it.
Mr. P, THOMSON said that if he was called upon to
vote an the present occasion, he should certainly be in favour
of the second reading of the Bill. In hit opinion the Bill
ought to go into Committee, in order that Honourable Mem-
bers might be enabled to satisfy themselves 48 to the truth of
the various statements, No one would be precluded from op-
posing the Bill in 4 future stage.
After a few words from Lord TEIGNMOUTH,
The gallery was cleared for i division.
The House divided, when there appeared— •
For the second reading
Against it B4

Majority —9
The Bill was then read a second time.
GREAT YARMOUTH ELECTION COMMITTEE.
The Clerk of Committees appeared at the Bar with 'Lite
list of Members on this Committee, which was read as follows :
The Hon, A'Court Holmes, Mr. Brodie, Lord Marcus
Hill, Mr. Bailey (of Sudbury), the Hon. E. Grimston,
G. Rushout, H. Hurst, Col. Thomas, E. ,Vivian, E. Baker,
G. Byng.

DEAL PIER BILL.
On the motion of Sir T. TROWBRIDGE the Deal Pier Bill
was read a second time, and ordered to he committed.
BARNSLEY SMALL DEBTS.
On the motion of Sir G. STRICKLAND the Barnsley Small
Debts Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be corn-
rnitted.

On the motion of the same Hon. Member, the Buckstone
and Elland-bridge Road Bill, the Wakefield and Halifax Road
Bill, and the Salterhebbcl Road Bill were severally read a
second time, and ordered to be committed.
LAW OF COPYRIGHT AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. WAK LE Y gave notice that, on the Order of the Day
for going into Committee on the Law of Copyright Amend-
ment Bill, he should move an amendment that the Bill be
committed that day six months.
FOREIGN SLAVE TRADE.
Sir R. INGLIS gave notice that on the 10th of May he
should call the attention of the House to the Foreign Slave
Trade.

GREAT YARMOUTH ELECTION.
Mr. RUMBOLD wished to call the attention of the
House and the Honourable Baronet opposite to the cir-
cumstances of the petition that was presented last
night relative to the Great Yarmouth Election That
petition stated that Mr. Barth, the Mayor of Great Yar-
mouth, had absented himself from that place, for the pur-
pose of preventing the service of the Speaker's warrant
upon hint. • After such a statement, he (Mr. R.) was sur-
prised that the first person he saw, upon coming down to that
House, was Mr, Barth himself; and upon his asking him the
question, ho had assured him that it was not his inten-
tion to absent himself on that account ; and from the know-
ledge that he (Mr. R.) had of Mr, Barth, he was
sure that he was a gentleman incapable of so doing. Mr.
Barth stated that he was obliged to leave Great Yarmouth
suddenly, for the
,purpose of attending to his business in
other parts of the country. Under such circumstances, he ( Mr.
R.) could not but think the petition had been got up very
incautiously. His only object in mentioning the subject now
was to set Mr. Barth right with the House, and to assure
them that it was the farthest from his thoughts to evade the
service of the order of the House,
Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE felt great s.ttisfaction
in finding that Mr. Barth had appeared. Indeed he
felt convinced that after the discussion of last night he
would do so. If, therefore, anything had fallen from him
last night hurtful to the feelings of Mr. Barth h. e was sorry
for it, but still he could not but adhere to the opinions he had
then expressed.
Mr. RUMI3OLD was sorry that the lion, Member had
not exculpated the character of Mr. Barth, without, at the
same time, casting out an insinuation,

COUNTY COURTS BILL.
Mr. PAC KINGTON wished to know whether it was the
intention of the Noble Lord opposite to proceed with the
County Courts Bill upon the 2d of May. He asked this
because he believed it was very generally wished that the
consideration of that measure should be deferred to a later
period.

Lord J. RUSSELL did not wish to hurry on the second
reading of that Bill. It was his intention, therefore,
not to propose the second reading on the 2d of May,
but he should probably do so in the course of the week follow-
ing, or the week after that. He (Lord John Russell) wished
to ask the Hon. Member for Dublin whether he would not
postpone the motion of which he had given notice with mpect
to slavery in the West Indian colonies, His Hon. Friend
the Under Secretary for the Cr:;,onies, in consequence of a
domestic calamity, would 'no unable to be in his place, and
it would be incmentent to bring the subject forward in his
absenz.
Mr. O'CONNELL felt that it would be inconvenient to
go into a lengthened discussion of the matter in the absence
of the Hon. Baronet, and as the cause of that absence was one
for which all must feel, he would without hesitation postpone
his motion for a fortnight. There were several papers for
which he had given notice that be would move, which he be-
loved would not be objected to i buts isr the absence of the

, /:S • :.-7-1" .
-o_.--j-,-)-y-r..,- --,
. J.
BUSINESS OF THE SESSIO .!' .0:.,r:a1-- oi:.
Lord 'JOHN RUSSELL then said he rose Ve-t*'- 4:re'Ll,
)
after the 14th of May, for one month, On Ate.ltiiyitOrtee :re'"''
day in the week be given to the CrlOttl,or -44 - ---e-. \' "
Day. He did so upon two grounds ; first, it '‘'fir Vr5,..,11:
desirable that Bills should be proceeded with in order to be IV
sent up to the other House as early as possible. Secondly—
in the early part of the Session several days were taken tip
in men ing for leave to bring in Bills ; but after they u ere
brought in they became Orders of the Day. Ua
shuuld therefore move, that after the 14th of May, Orders
of the Day should have precedence of Notices on Thursdays,
for one month.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought the motion of the Noble Lard,
if carried, would operate very prejudicially on those who
were not members of the Government.—( Hear, hear.) Ho
should cestainly oppose the motion of the Noble Lord,
Sir R. INGLIS also objected to the motis n. He further
stated that, having risen immediately after the privall
business had ecncluded, to give notice for a motion regardiog
Vie Foreign Slave Trade on the 1.1:h ,Mays lip submitted Ow,
he vial the firA who had given pnhlie nonce ; that thin notice
was clearly within the fiftceit ti.tys allowed 11 the orthirii;
that no other p.c.ron i!!',
the Houszo 6uld be permitted to Intel-Flo and
between that routioi, 4.nd
!..'ir. GOUL B URN said the proposition of the Noble I;Urd
7
was one which appeared to be commencing at tht ,011, period
in a Session when attendance in Parlial-rtent was under,
stood to be greatest, and when the ::‘'rrention of Members was
more closely directed to public business than at any other, to
claim for the Government a larger proportion of precedency
than any former Government had attempted to claim. Tbs.. No.
blo Lord appeared in his argument to consider ttoe only
ohjett of a Notice-day was to alow Members opportunity for
bringing forward private Bills. That was altogether a new
doctrine.—( Hear.) He (Mr. Goulburn) had ever considered
it the constitutional view of a Notice-day, that it should
giheve
meas any i
unredependthe Gent Member the opportunity of questioni-.,g
ts of over( Hear, hear)_rnel the
tendency of the Noble Lord's motion, if carried,
1:;ould be
to curtail those opportunities to a very great ersteno._( Hear.)
It was not merely the immediate exclucioni I".,ut the ulti-
ground of his
mate evil likely to arise, that formed tl:,,
objection. He complained of the Noble Lord having
adopted the plan in the ver,y leeat of the Session, when the,
time of IlemnOrable :viembers was most called to putolic
affairs,._; hear, hear.) There might be an accumula.*.ion of
business on the books of the House. But why was that ?
Parliament had been sitting since November last--(Loud cries
of " Hear, hear")—and if Government had brought forward
for discussion measures of an important character—if they
had done so, there would not have been such Bet accu-
mulation of business. They had arrived now at the be-
ginning of May, and no financial statement -had been laid
before the House.—(Hear, hear.) lo:ardly anyostponed of the
estimates had been gone through ; ttcy had been
p
ft-em time to time; and now, 114 their only resourse, Govorn-
ment called upon then, to abandon one of the nights
when Members might hope to have an orpo:tunity of
bringing questions affecting their constituents before the
House. Oa these grounds lie most decidedly objected to the
proposition of the Noble Lord.
Sir J. GRAHAM said the Hon. Member for Coventry had
(dearly pointed out the diffieulties likely to arise. Ho
( Sir J. Graham) had a subject to bring before the House;
himself, and lie deeply regretted ti:e absence of the Lrrd
Advocate for Scotland, without whom he could not
proceed.—( Hear.) The subject referred to the Ranxburgh
election, where the privileges of the freeholders had been
grossly violated. It appeared that every day up 'to the loth
of May was occupied, and yet by adopting the present
rule, all the Noble Lord expected to gain was tlYfee
days for Government business. The Notice-days were
Cie only opportunities independent Members },ad of d; scussing
the measures of Government, and if they were now further
restricted, it would be most unjust and uooonstitutional.
lie wished to know whether tine House
Clanprepared to
sanction such restraints as were proposed? He hoped the
Noble Lord would reconsider the proposition, as the matter
now in dispute was only three days.
Col. DA VIES thought that the Right Hon. Baronet had
not dealt fairly by the Government, in taunting them with not
having brought subjects of an important character before tke
House during the periods that were allotted to them. He
(Colonel Davies) thought, if any persons were to bleeae for
that it w s
a the Members on the Right Hon. Baronet's side of
House. Unless gentlemen wished to sit in 'that flouSn.:
till September or October, they must make lye their minds
to give more time to the Government.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL could not say any,hing more in
answer to the Honourable Ge-otientan opposite than what he
had previotealy stated, .The other House comp'ai ted of Bills
twine,- 'sent up to them at a time when ,Memo er3 of neither
r • '•••
.touse gave strict attendance, and measures woe: neglected,
not so much on account of' their merits, as tleey were postponed
in consequence of a want of' time for giving thema proper
consideration. —( Hear, hear.) When. such a pica was made it
was desirable to begin now, not ie. *July, to give snore time to
the Orders of the Day. He wished that it should
Aso longer be stated that the Government did not bring
its measures for discussion, when the fact was that
there was not time enough for the considerat;.on
of those measures already brought forward. The preesent
Session commenced with a severe pressure of busineas ; for
not only had they the proper business of the Session,
namely, the Canada Bill and the Slavery Bill, but they
had the postponed business of previous -years,_( Hear.)
They had also remaining the measures relative to the
Cathedral and other Church Reforms, as also those Bills re-
!ative to the administration Of justice.—( Hear, hear.) The
proposition still appeared to him reasonable, and he thought
that it would much forward the business ef the session,
because, though there were Lilly three dee, involved,
the question really was, whether they silvO:hi send Bills
up to the other House in such time as to
t. ~e them- June and
July for consideration ; or whether thel' saottld be sent up at
such a time as to leave no time for thetr consideration at all.
If the House agreed with him, much important business
would be got through—if not, it. could not be the fault of
the Government.
Mr. HUME admitted it was 'of great importance that the
measures of Government should be as speedily as possible
introduced. But thee situation iii which the House might be
placed was, the, the Government might give plenty of no-
tices, and l's--ing on nothing—(" Hear," and laug,hter)—
the Coe'lnquenee of which would be, that it would be uncertain
On ';ihat days the Government business would come on. Ho
would not be inclined to object to the proposition of the
Noble Lord, if the business were brought on upon days
for which notice might be given.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHIEL said that one reason struck hi:n'as not an un-
important one, which would induce the House to agree to the
proposition of the Noble Lord. It had been stated in
the House of Lords that the Irish Corporation Bill,
the Irish Tithe Bill, and the Irish Poor-law Bill, should
be by them considered as portions of one measure ;
and that the Irish Corporation Bill would not
be passed unless th Poor Law Bill and the Irish Tithe Bill
should be lard before, their Lordships at the same time. It fol-
lowed therefore that if they sent up one of those measures
only, the Lords would come to the resolution they formerly
adopted of rejecting it, until the other two were also sent up.
What wenld be the result ? Why, that they would do nothing
with respect to any one of those measures, unless the other two
".ere brought on. It was necessary, therefore, that those
three measures should go up together to the other House.
For 'that reason, if for ilo other, he should be induced
to support the proposition of the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PE EL seid he should give his vote against the mo-
tion of the Noble Lord, as he was persuaded, if once sanc,ioned
as a precedent, it would in future Sessions be followed 'op by
similar motions, even at an earlier period.--( Rear, hear.)
The Noble Lord had said that measures of the ;;reatest im-
portanee—the Civil List, the Canada Bill, tlee Irish Poor-
Law Bill—had occupied the time of the Howe:. What was to
be the reward of Honourable Members? Why, that
they were to be curtailed of all but one day in
the week, for bringing on measures respecting the getter.'
policy of the Government„—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
Would the House have passed the resolution restricting.
lion. Members from giving notices for periods extending to
mote than a fortnight afterwards, if they had anticipated
that it was to he followed up by this resolution ?—(llear.)
It was considered actually an intrusion to bring forward ques-
tions of foreign policy upon the attention of the House. Ile
protested against the extension of such a doctrine. Con.
sidering that they had been sent there for the pur-
pose of legislation, he thought such a restriction as
was now proposed would be most injurious.—( Hear,
hear.) The present Government was food of appealing
to precedents, but he would ask, would not the present ar-
rangement form an excellent precedent for the next session ?
—( Cheers.) He protested against it as establishing a prece-
dent, which be appealed to by Governments stronger than the
present —( A laugh)—and which would most injuriously con-
tract the privileges of the Members of that House.—(Cheers.)
After a few words from Colonel DAVIES in explanation,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL would repeat that, considering the
present state of public business, it would be impossible to carry
more than a few great measures in the course of a Session if
two days a week only wore allowed to the Government. If the
i prop s o tion was objected to by the House, he (Lord J. Russell)
would not press it, but the delay caused would only furnish
ground for the rejection of measures in the other House.
He would not press the motion.—(" Oh, oh I" and cheers, )
NOTICES.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought that some arrangement should
tike place in the House relative to notices, as at present the
greatest inconvenience arose with respect to them. lie thought
there ought to be some plan devised for putting them in. He bad
riven notice of a motion for a day after the holidays, and, now
he was told others had precedence of him.
Mr. P. THOMSON thought that the best coo
lee to adopt
would be to adhere to the old plan of notices being
riven in the House, and then taken in retat.l.on. He thought
'
the notices that had been given should '.;Low be taken in their
turn.
Lord J. RUSSELL gave -notice that in Committee of
S''!:pply to-morrow he should first bring forward the ordnance
estimates and the charges for yeomanry corps.
PRISONS
Lord J. RUSSELL rose to mco.4e for leave to bring in hie
Bill for the better ordering of prisons. This Bill was
intro-
duced by his Noble Friend into the House, and in the
merely a supplement to that which
Upper had already been intro-
_
then thin state of the House he did not think it necessary lo
discuss it. He would merely state that one of its chief fea-
tures was the power proposed to be given to justices as to the
classification of prisoners according to circumstances, for
it was found that in some cases the felons were less dangerous
than the other inmates convicted of minor offences, The Bill
also proposbd to do away with that most injueious practice of
putting prisoners into authority as gaoler:s and wardsmen—

Hon. Baronet, he would also postpone his Km
to them.

places in which none but persons of good character should
ever be employed. He also hoped that the operation of this
Bill would bring about a uniformity of discipline, which had
long been a desideratum in England. Ti.ere were various
other clauses introduced for the accomplishment of special re-
forms in prison discipline, but they could all better be dis-
cussed when the Bill was brought in.

Mr. HAWES was disposed to think that all the prisons
ought to be placed under the care of the Sc.•eretary of State,
and then some r.-gularity of discipline might be attained.

Mr. HUME was sta. y that Lord John Russell had not
gone a little further, and fullo;,-cd up his own re port, adopted
by the select Committee of which he was Chairmen, in 1828,

with regard to the merits of the separate system. Govern-
ment ought now to take up the mutt( r decidedly, and afford a
fair trial to the system they approved, beginning with the con-
victs of the Central Criminal Court. The resent Bill of the
Noble Lord, however, appeared not framed to effect anything
of itself, it merely gave the power to tile magistrates to reform
elle prisons—if they pleased. He would say, let there be a
gold prison built purposely to try the effects of the approved
system, and in the meantime let the Penitentiary be appor-
tioned to its fulfilment as nearly as possible. lie calle I the
attention of the House to the excellent effects produced by
the superior administration of justice in the Home Circuit.
two counties only in the kingdom (Middlesex and Surrey)
Was crime shown to be decreasing. This he attributed to the
great etL7.e•T of the police, and also to frequent gaol deli-
veries. Hewotil.4 beg to ask the Noble Lord if it was his
intention to build a n;4. el prison, that all doubts might be
practically resolved ?
Captain BOLDER() had lately visited several prison?,
with the especial view to the observance of the punishment
endured by military offenders, and was sorry to And that
there was no uniform system whatever adopted in their treat-
ulf:at. It was strict in one place and relaxed in another.
The Penitentiary was the only es•ablishment in which he
found decided order, cleanliness, and uniformity of labour
eelaielished, without the employment of a treadmill. The
lalechlr enforced in Coldbath-fields was very irregular, and
the etraets of the treadmill particularly severe ; for even on a
veld, wieeie del-, the parties, on ending their tasks, appeared
much distr„.,sd, Pe felt that this species of punishment
ought to be done away with in the case of females, and, if
persevered in for the male prisoners, ought to be applied to
some useful purpose, not in the ridiculous arrangement of
pulling against each other.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Penitentiary was not or-
ginally intended for soldiers, but for the better class of civil
prisoners, to whom it was desirable to impart instruction, with
a reasonable hope of reform. It was chiefly to relieve the
(mellowing county prisons that soldiers was sent there, but
he hoped to see that crass of offenders provided for under an-
other Bill. lie certainly had brought forward the resolutions
in Committee touching the deplorable state of Newgate, but
the City treated (he question as one of economy, and would
not act on the advice of the Committee. So matters rested,
for be could not build anothor Newgate for the City, or oblige
them So rebuild it for themselves--they declared that the two
systems (the separate and silent) had not yet been sufficiently
tried. For his own part, he would feel disposed to make a
large experiment in prison discipline ; but he feared his Hon.
Friend near him (Mr. Hume) would not be disposed to grant
the funds. —( Laughter.) It certainly should not be done
suddenly or expensively.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL then moved for leave to bring in a
Bill for establishing a prison for juvenile offenders.
Sir E. WILMOT strongly recommended that juvenile
offenders should not be sent to prison, but tried at once, and
so disposed of. It was a serious thing to find on record that
they had to deal with 358 offenders under twelve years of age,
and near 3,000 under sixteen. A contrary mode had been
lately taken with juvenile offenders placed at an asylum esta-
blished in the county of Warwick ; out of 150 convicted of
various offences one-half had been reformed there. Last year
he was happy to say that, by a perseverance in the mea-
sures so happily employed, all the boys had been completely
reformed and retured to society.—( Hear, hear.) The good
done in this way was incalculable. He knew a head clerk in
a bank at that moment, who was a similarly reformed boy.
He beseeched the Noble Lord (J. Russell) to turn his imme-
diate attention towards a subject which, if properly worked
out, would be productiue of very great benefit to the commu-
nity.—(Hear, hear.) '
Mr. A. CHAPMAN agreed with the Hon. Baronet in the
principle of which he had recommended the adoption, and
confirmed his statements with reference to the general preva-
lence of juvenile delinquency.
Mr. GIBSON had lately visited the Asylum at Hampton
Wick, and was there informed that, in spite of the severe
punishment of the treadmill and of the silent system, unless
some plan of emigration were adopted, all their efforts to re-
form the juvenile population of the country would be in vain.
He hoped the Noble Lord would make some attempt to carry
out the recommendations of the Inspectors of Prisons upon
this point. -
Lord J. RUSSELL agreed with the Prison Inspectors in
recommending that, with regard to young offenders, the best
course would be to make some part of their punishment com-
mutable into a removal to a celony, provided such colony were
not a penal one.—( Hear, hear.) At the same time, if they
were to establish a general system of removing juvenile
Wenders to the colonies, they would be giving such colo-
nies the character of penal ones, which it was very neces-
sary should be avoided as much as possible cn every account.
When juvenile offenders came out of prison, they were taken
possession of by those who availed themselves of their ser-
vices in perpetrating crimes; and if, therefore, something
could be done which would have the effect of removing them
where they would have at the same time both honest employ-
ment and instruction, either in some of the colonies or else-
where, there could be little doubt that much good would re-
sult from the experiment. With respect to adults, .he enter-
tained in moat cases very little expectation of reforming them ;
but certainly the State bad very much in its power with respect
to persons below a certain ege.—(llear.) With respect to
the observations of the Hon. Baronet the Member for War-
wickshire, he' c.-)uld only say that he should feel, and had felt,
cons:derable difficulty as to introducing a Bill upon this sub-
ject, however anxious he might be to see one introduced, and
to which he promised the Hun. Baronet he would, if brought
forward, lend his best support.—( Hear.) All he could say at
present was, that it was his intention to devote the establieli-
merit at Parkhouee, in the Isle of Wight, which was formerly
a military depot, to the trial of an experiment with reference
to youn offenders, and he trusted that the residt might be
round to be benficial to the community and advantageous to
the criminals themselves.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said it was possible to mal;e very great im-
provemeee. in juvenile offenders after conviction, and he heard
with great satisfaction that the Noble Lord proposed to estab-
lish a prison for the purpose of making the experiment.—
( Hear, hear.) Yet it must not be expected that that alone
would go very far towards remedying the existing evil. The
real contamination was caught before trial—( Hear, hear)—
and it was scarcely possible to conceive the difficulties which
stood in the way of a remedy for that. He ( Sir R. Peel)
thought that after conviction by far the best plan would be to
make some security to prevent the contamination of children
within the gaols. Among the class of juvenile offenders there
were many who acted under the evil guidance of other persons—
( Hear)—and it was very difficult by law to determine what
were juvenile offenders. Under all circumstance,: he thought
the best plan would be to hand them over to the most sum-
mary jurisdiction that could be establiehed, and if they could
ensure the impartiality of that jurisdiction much good might
be derived from it. He was so sensible of the great evils of
contamination that he touch wished that something could be
done to distinguish the different classes of young offenders,
and to separate the really vicious from the unpractised and less
i.nmoral offender.
After a few words ;Tom Mr. Hume, Mr. Hawes, Sir E.
Wilmot, and Mr. A. Yates, leave was given to bring in the Bill.
COSTS AND RECOGNIZANCES IN ELECTION
PETITIONS.
Sir R. PEEL then rose, and said that, in undertaking to
eonsider the amendment of the law with regard to contro-
verted elections, he had thought it best to commence, as any
other individual would in any other matter, with the very be•
ginning of the evil to be remedied.—( Hear, hear.) His great
object was at present to attempt to diminish the expensive
costs of election petitions, and the expense of entering into re-
cognizances. The Right Hon. Baronet then proceeded to
say that, in laying his views before the House, he would divest
his arguments of all party feeling, either with reference to one
side of the House or the other—( Hear, hear)—but lie thought
that when they reflected upon many cases that had occurred—
upon the Sligo and Portarlington cases, and many others—
they must all agree in thinking it f,r better that the appeal
to that House should be prevented. lie thought that so de-
sirable an object could be attained. If they looked at the
statute of George 111. they would find that it provided that
recognizances should be entered into before a Master in
Chancery or an offic.r appointed by the Speaker, and yet
there had been cases in which the parties had applied to the
Sneaker to accept this security before ascertaining whether
th7e recognizances were sufficient.—( Hear, hear.) In cases
where the parties resided forty miles from London recogni-
zances might be entered into, perhaps, before a magistrate,
and he only wished to show the necessity for some short enact-
ment of the law for the purpose of enabling parties to decide
questions arising out of the recognizances without an appeal
to the body of the House upon the subject. The adoption of
such a course would have the effect of checking fraud, and of
encouraging parties who were acting bona fide and with Ito-
re:sty. Besides residence the law required that the addition
nt the name should be given. Now it seemed to him to be
sufficient for the purpose of determining as to the sufficiency
of a surety that there should be the means, first, of inquiring
into his pecuniary solvency, and next that his residence should
be (wide known to the parties interested in prosecuting that
ie„ e. !t ~vas quite proper that the residence of the ro-
il" v st, gull be given, but why his name in addition
vv. a' a 1 hs to understand. The law, bowe-
-1 e r.a; eecel .:rt additional reason for nopointing such
a Cornmitt,e he proposed, he might state that there were
great imperft ctions in the manner in which recognizances were
entered into by sureties. In a case which occurred last Ses-
sion—the Ipswich case—it was held by the Court of Common
Picas that the recognizances were defective in point of form,
and the defects were pointed out by the judges. It was there-
fore desirable that the form of the recognizance should be
amended so as to obviate this difficulty, and there was another
doubt which had arisen which should also be set at rest, and that
was as to whether the :Masters in Chancery were entitled to take
emsain fees made payable to them. An Act had passed some
time since brought in by Lord Brougham, which prevented the
igastess in Chancery from taking fees ; but as a doubt ex-
isted on she subject it was only right that the law should be
cleared pp. There were other points respecting which he
proposed the Committee should inquire. The taxation of
costs was one. There were two heads of costs ; first, the
legal expenseh foe' fees to solicitors and Counsel, and next the
expenses of wit,:Vses. Now it was important to witnesses

that as early a decision as possible should be obtained as to
the sum to which they were entitled for their attendance.
This was a subject which he intended should come under the
consideration cf the Committee, and it was one which a former
Committee had recommended to the notice of the Heuse, at
the same time that the Chairman of that Committee pointed
out the inconvenience of the proceeding and the delay and ex-
pense which it entailed on the parties. Now, an officer was
a; pointed some time ago, on the motion of an Hon. Gentle-
man opposite, to superintend the passage of private Bills—
for the Furpee of preparing the " breviates of private Bills
—and it was only justice to that officer to say that no one
could discharge his duties more satisfactorily, or with greater
advantage to the public. It was a question with him whether
or net it would net he advisable to devolve on this officer the
duties of taking recognizances and taxing costs. There would
be great advantage in employing a prrson acting under the
authority of the Speaker, and responsible for his decisions to
that House, in this way, as be could apply his mind to the
duties which lie was required to perform with more certainty
add effect than a Master in Chancery could be expected
to do. It might, too, be fitting to consider whether
some new arrangement ought not to be made with
respect to the payment of costs. At present costs were
not paid unless the petition was reported to be " frivolous
and vexatious ;" hut that was open to objection, and
might admit of some qualification, as, for instance, if the
proceeding were vexatious, if it should turn out that there
were no grounds sufficient to warrant a party in being put to
expense, or if the seat of a Member were controverted without
a reasonable hope of success. There was a reluctance on the
part of Committed to find petitions against returns " frivolous
and vexatious ;" but with respect to the question of costs, the
rules of Courts both of law and of equity were more explicit,
for they adopted a graduated scale with regard to the pay-
ment of costs. This, however, was a matter for future con-
sideration, and at present all he desired was that the Com-
mittee should enter into the subordinate matters with reference
to the mode of entering into recognizances and the taxation of
costs. In moving for this Committee, his object was to clear
up the obscurities of the law, and in order to include those
points in the Bill which it was his intention to introduce, if
Tleavehis mfoer
atshuarte,phuer pi
nctseendweedr,e
jiuuv
ledn
ehmi m, o b
r. n
en
tt
hh 10
ee
wholeth o
w May.
, e
_
lating to controverted elections. The Right Hon. Baronet
r concluded by moving, " That a Select Committee be appointed
to inquire respecting tke costs and recognizances incidental to
the trial of election petitions."
Mr. HUME had been a member of the former Committee,
and they had gone into the consideration of the question, as to
how far the losing party ought to pay the costs of the party
who succeeded. They came, however, to no decision on the
point, but contented themselves with merely calling the atten-
tion of the House to the subject. He submitted that this ought
to form part of the present inquiry.
Lord HOWICK concurred in all that had been stated by
the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, with re-
spect to the defective state of the law relating to controverted
elections. In dealing with these difficulties there were some
clauses of the Bill of his Hon. and Learned Friend who had
just left this country which were deserving of attention. The
object of that measure was not to shut out parties who had a
real and bona fide intention to prosecute the petition, but to
prevent the necessity of their being obliged to come down to
that House to apply for an enlargement of time for putting in
sureties. The appeal to that House was highly inconvenient,
and at his suggestion his lion, and Learned Friend had intro-
duced clause. into the Bill on the table by which the deposit
of a certain sum of money in the hands of truetees to abide the
event should answer instead of sureties. This was the system
which had been adopted at the War Office with respect to
regimental paymasters, and it was found to work so well, arid
afford such security to the public, that he theught it would
be a good principle introduced into any measure where se-
curity was necessary. It was a matter which he hoped would
not be overlooked by either the Right lion. Baronet or the
Committee.
The motion was then agreed to, but the naming of the Com-
mittee was postponed.
THE STANDING ORDERS.
Mr. S. LE FE VR E moved for a Select Committee to con-
sider the Standing Orders of the House of Commons relating
to private Bills, and to compare them with those of the House
cf Lords, with the view of assimilating as much as possible
the Standing Orders of both Houses. The Hon. Gentleman
said that on the whole the Standing Orders of the last Session
had been found to:work well, for, although there had been
150 private Bills, difficulty occurred in the construction of
only three of the Standing Orders. By the Standing Orders
of that House notices of Railway Bills were required to be
given in February and March, but the House of Lords required
! that such notices should be given in October and November,
and the question was, whether the better way would not be to
assimilate the Standing Orders of the two Houses. This was
done for the protection of the landowners. They were bound
to see that all such Bills were bona file, and that they were
not brought in by parties of swindlers, as was the case during
the last Session.
Lord SANDON wished to know if he were to understand
that the labours of the Committee would be confined exclu-
sively to the object of assimilating the Standing Orders of
the House with those of the House of Lords? There were
many points arising out of the Standing Orders of that House
besides those which had been mentioned that occasioned
difficulty.
Mr. S. L EFEVRE wished the attention of the Committee
to be directed to every thing in the Standing Orders which
gave rise to doubts. If, however, the Noble Lord would in-
quire, he would find that no difficulties had arisen under any
of the Standing Orders, except in two or three instances.
Mr. HUME thought the present practice of the House of
Lords with respect to private Bills ought to be taken into
consideration by the Committee.
Mr. P. THOMSON was glad the present motion had been
made. His Hon. Friend had alluded to the time when notices
were to be given, but for his own part he was unwilling to
make any alteration in the arrangement of the Commit tee of
1836, confirmed by the Committee of 1837, with regard to
notices. At first the House of Lords agreed to a uniformity
of practice. They had since departed from it, but still he
hoped that the Committee would be able to induce them to
return to the practice originally agreed on between the tee o
Houses. He was unwilling -to alter that practice, because he
believed that much benefit had resulted from it. Obliging the
notices to be given in February and March afforded time to
consider the nature of the scheme before the shares were sold
in the market, and this was the only effectual way in which
the bubble system could be prevented. It also enabled the
engineers to consider the country through which a railroad
zees intended to pass, and he knew of several :stances in
wbieh it had led to an alteration of the original line for c4:O ;I
that was better and more practicable. With these remarks
he should assent to the motien ; but he could not do so with-
out bearing testimony to the admirable manner in whi.il pri-
vate business was conducted by the Noble Lord the Chair-
main of the Committees of Ways and Means in the house
of Lords.
After a few words from Mr. AGLIONISY, Mr. FINCH, and
Mr. WARD,
The motion was agreed to.
JOINT-STOCK BANKS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose for
the purpose of moving the re-appointment of the Committee
which had sat last session oa the subject of joint-stock banks.
The House was aware that the session before last, on his (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer's) motion, a Select Committee
had been appointed to inquire into this subject. He was bound to
say that this Committee had conducted their proceedings with
the greatest labour and diligence. Indeed it was impossible fur
any Committee to have devoted themselves with more sedulous
attention to the objects committed to them. From day to day
the proceedings of the Committee were never conducted
without a full attendance of the Mernhers of the Committee.
Last year this Committee had been revived, and had pro•
ceeded to continue the examination of witnesses, and the evi-
dence was about to be reported to the House when the circum-
stances occurred which had led to the early termination of the
Session, and no report was consequently made. When he
moved the re-appointment of the Committee last Session, he
had stated that his sole object was to enable the Committee to
perfect their inquiry. The first object of the inquiry was with
respect to the state of banking in Ireland ; the second object
was with respect to the relations existing between the Bank of
Ireland and the public, a subject which would be likely to come
before the House in the course of the present Session of Par
liament. The third object was to inquire into that part of the
transactions of the Bank of England which related to its
branches in the country, its effects on the circulation of the
country, and the bearing of the whole system, with reference
to Joint- Stock Banks. In reviving the Committee he hoped
to be able to bring before the House in the shape of a recom-
mendation that (as wo understood the Hon. Gentleman) some
law. i
he inquiry t should
yld take place with regard to the state of the
which he proposed should take place before
the Committee was merely supplementary to the examination
that had already taken place. Having explained the objects of
the inquiry, he should advert to a notice of an amendment to be
proposed by his Hun. Friend the Member for Kilkenny, who,
it appeared, intended to move that the inquiry of the Cm_ 1
mittee should be extended to " the state of banking in Eng-
land generally, the fluctuations in the amount of currency, arid
the causes of such fluctuation since 1833." Now, as his 1
Hon. Friend's object could be as well attempted in another
way, he would ask him to make his motion on a future day in
the shape of an instruction to the Committee. It would lead
to no result if they were to go partially into the discussion,
as there were many gentlemen absent who would be anxious
to express their opinions on a future day. He hoped, there-
fore, his Hon. F'riend would acquiesce in his request, and
postpone his motion to a future day. He would say one
word with respect to the composition of the Committee. He
thought the enquiry would be more speedily concluded by
leaving it in the hands of those Gentlemen who had already
applied themselves to it with so much assiduity and attention.
If new members were added to the Committee much of the
same ground would have to be gone over again. lie would
conclude by moving the re-appointment of the Select Cons -
mittee, to take into consideration the several Acts relati g
to joink-stock Banks, and also to consider whether it was ( x-
pedient that any alteration or amendment should take pl cc
in the state of the law with respect to this subject. He should
merely propose the re-appointment of those who were members
of the last Committee.
The questionu iIE
i having
said
thatbeen put,
before
Mr . u he could agreeu
steo
htliiseapmreenpdo:
sition of the Right Hon. Gentleman to
itdmehaceeytn,et
dtbi
tiyeo motion wRi : aifogyonhrot
paf
rHaicnnoocnmii ni).
Committee
Get
ir,
teutbnceettecii
eoawmnuasastenofihn
iretsh e Committee on a future
fixue%u,
egdh t thatit
t wasd
forwarday .
only
n he
ye en When,hd
.:
ut
bs
etb 1 ri
culated to withdraw the attention of the country from the real
cause of the evils under which they were suffering, namely,
the operations of the Bank of England, and to induce those
who are but little acquainted with the subject to believe that
they originated in the system of joint-stock banks, If the

Right lion. Gentkolan would afford him an opportunity of
l.aviog the whole question fully di:cussed within a fortnight,
that would meet his wishes.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
r. his Noble Friend (Lord John Russ.:ll) was not in the
House, he could not name a day then, but he should be pre-
oared in tl:e course of to-morrow to fix an early and conve-
nient day for taking the subject into consideration. He could
assure the House he had no pos,ible wish to avoid tlTe most
ample discussion of the question.
The motion was then agreed to.
On the names of the Cc mmittee being about to be road,
Mr. HUME rose, and said that lie thought the Committee
was scircel) a fair one, there being no Scotch Member on it,
nor any Member connected with Joint Stock Banks.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
Honourable Friend was not correct. He (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) had himself been concerned in the manage-
ment of a Joint Stock Bank, so also had the President of the
Board of Trade. Mr. Matthias Att.vood, a member of the
Committee, was a Direcior of one of the largest Joint Stock
Banks that existed ; Sir Thomas Fremantle. another Memo2r
of the Committee, was also connected with a Joir.t Stock Bark.
Mr. FINCH could assure the Right Honourable Gentle.
man that one objection, which was very strongly entertained
on the part of persons interested in Joint Stock Banks in the
country was, that there was no Member.connected with those
Banks on the Committee.
The names proposed were again about to be read, when
Mr. HUME suguested that, in accordance with the rules
of the House, the Committee ought not to be named till to-
morrow.

After a brief conversation,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER expressed
his perfect readiness to give notice of the names he intended
to propose instead of nominating the Committee then.
Mr. FINCH then said that as Sir John Wrottesley and
Mr. Hamilton, both of whom were members of the former
Committee, were no linger Members of the House, he should
to-morrow move that his own name, and the name of Mr.
Ormsby Gore be added to the Committee in lieu of those
gentlemen.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER appre-
hended that it was not competent for the Hon. Gentleman to
propose himself.
Mr. HUME: Then I will propose the name of my honour
able Friend.