The Sun.
London, England, 1838-08-15 00:00:00

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in. Me event of their return. It was but intended to operate
at;
aa entence of banishment, and that only for a time, until
13hei
r rnment saw that they were likely to give security for
s tnts get-4 behaviour in future. It was, he would repeat, but a
th2e CO ail banishment, and even then left a door open for
ri-,
se
.1' b_ma,—( Oh, oh.) The eight others, against whom
of transportation to Bermuda had been passed, were
ais
le. aiently dealt with, as they were relieved from the con-
is 4ttif ,n of property to
which they would be liable under the
or lins .nee of Sir J. Colborne ; and besides this, it left it open
eat!.'itht Governor to permit their return whenever it appeared
that circumstances would render that return
consist-
snrt w ith the quiet and safety of the colony. It was neces-
Y, 1 lowever, that the Parliament of this country should ex-
press: its marked opinion of the illegality of the proceeding,
however opposite to cruelty might he the motive by which it
Rasv, ca (-minted. It would operate roost mischievously hereaf ex-
n let 'e remained a doubt upon the mind of any person that
tho ordinance could be justified. He considered the ordinance
ur arbitrary edict, and a going beyond the power vested in
th'l Celonial Government and Legislature. There was no-
co? „g n. in The journals or annals of the British House of
"anr-413 wbich would serve as a precedent for such an ordi-
nan
deat to see-acne° eight persons to banishment and fifteen, to
A case had been alluded to elsewhere, but even t la
"a' -not be strictly drawn into a precedent. He meant tithe
176 • V Geo. I I , which was levelled against the sons of the
in Eiyr( ec nder, condemning them to death if they were
igland.—( Hear, hear.) There was, however, this
differ ence, that those persons were never
h subjects, and had no title to the name of Englishmen.
were
'yet the birth of the Pretender was disputed, and they. h
"Mt coned because they aspired to the throne of Britain, wit -
eat pi assessing any claim or title. He did not object to the
din antes on the
porticn enacting that the individuals should
tbe sm at to Bermuda, for that was merely a preparatory one to
3rwai•ding them to England for trial, and perhaps ultimately
o New South Wales; but he did object particularly to the
sentence of death pronounced against the fifteen persons who
°
ght return to Canada, and felt exceedingly grieved at the
El,olidern nation. lie was thereby obliged to pronounce on the con-
liet of Lord Durham.
, Sir R. IN1L; LIS suggested to her Majesty's Ministers that
in the new Will of Indemnity nothing should be inserted which
at,ifeht have 'the effect of relieving from any criminal liability
tne parties who had incurred the penalties of the law by their
rebellion& conduct in the late transactions in Canada.
1 The (3'o L IC ITOR- G E NE R A L said that he was fully pre-
the it) coincide in the opinion of the Attorney-General as to
la
e iet Lord Durham having exceeded his power, in send.
g i
adlviduals out of his jurisdiction to Bermuda, but no farther.
totally denied that the powers conferred by the Act were
-arlic°lstitutional. With respect to the want of precedent
deee3el in the issue of attainders, against absent untried indivi-
treal2, oe reminded the House of the Acts rendering it high
re; 'en for the Stuarts to set foot in England during the
4,11)1 of William 111 and for the Bonapartists to enter France
e reign of Louis"XVIII. As to the ordinance being
Sig
t'e' the day the Council was constituted, that was nothing
'thedi
, Purpose, for the policy of it might have been sufficiently
pct previously, and the Council only sworn in to give t
t legality.
N 014.:. ELLIS said that the Noble Lord the Member for
had
strh Lancashire towards the conclusion of his able speech,
the
dome Department,
recommended the Noble Lord, the Secretary for
°la° Departm.nt if the Government thought that either
that soubt existed
as' to the Canada Act itself, or any idea
ordie2nle.
measure should be adopted for superseding the until
tribunals of justice in that Colony, not to lose an hour
seh; ea Bill had been introduced and passed upon those
Iled'a4s. The Secretary of State for the Home Department
a. observed in reply, that himself and Colleagues had
pirli,,ell,,he matter their best attention, and that a Noble
certain °f his in another place had endeavoured to embody
and tlha words in the present Indemnity Bill with that view,
thereat his Noble Friend had subsequently assured him that
tesT; 110 hope of the other House of Parliament agreeing
Ilan a course. On the import of those certain words the
d and Learned Member for Exeter had dwelt with consi-
erable fo
in an t.‘c, and he (Mr. Ellis) felt persuaded that whether
teadar'ar'Y or a late period of Session—in a full or a thin at-
ceedee`e. of Members—the Noble Lord would never have suc-
tt,"••
to carrying such a Clause in that House.--( Hear.)
bad zght the Noble Lord was not justified in alluding as he
that one to the House of Lords, and he (Mr. Ellis) was sure
the !AIN.° proper case of emergency being now made out by
tar, laistree the Opposition in either branch of the Legisla-
etruld yield their ready support.---( Hear.)
site l SIBTHORP thought that the Noble Lord oppo-
A„...( Lord J. Russell) would best discharge his duty to her
;.:4j"tY and the country by sending out a quick-sailing
w"'he,airner to bring home the Noble Earl with all speed, as one
Who 4o believed more calculated to do injury than any one
had ever been sent to a British Colony.
eeard
'Op; • J. RUSSELL said, that as he had been asked his
rived
so pointedly, he would say that the decision he had ar-
thee,",,at was, that the' safer way would be that they should pass
without addine. any clauses regarding the future.ope-
epeeTa of the Act already passed. He had his views in this re-
e, confirmed by the very great diversity of opinion he ob-
ti,-(1 in that House on the subject to-night. He also thought
le at
the. better way was not to have any declaration as to the
se•Tht.e.of the ordinance, but to leave the question in its pre-
nosition._( Hear. )
t he Bill then passede through Committee and was ordered
°be r„d . ,
, a a o-morrow (this day).
BiIjeQGISTRATION OF ELECTORS' BILL.
ere Lords' amendments to the Registration of Electors'
then taken into consideration.
ref
.1.4 j* RUSSELL objected to the Lords' amendment
ating to the distance.
GAfter f
a ew words from Colonel Sibthorp, the Attorney-
orals, and Sir Thomas Fremantle, the amendment was
Zreed to. The N
the r oe "LE Lome then moved that the House disagree with
ds' amendment to the voting of trustees.
Lord
chase,
STANLEY and W. FOLLETT supported the
After e short conversation, the House divided :
For the clause
Against it 43
—ls
The claw Majority
e was consequently rejected.
"ereinzinder of the Lords' amendments were then agreed to.
71 IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT BILL.
had T.ee ATTORNEY-GENERAL intimated that this Bill
had °P from the Lords with an amendment to which he
irepose, greatest pleasure in assenting. It had been deemed
Ist that the Bill could come into operation before the
,hid„ "ecember ; but a consultation had been held with the
OtlcAisb, ani in consequence an amendment bed been intro-
h -Y the other House, fixing,- the Ist of October.
Aneuarnendment was then agreed to.
and b °N. MEMBER then moved that the House be counted,
jeer IA
atthirty-five M brs beince present the House ed-
ited e -
Quarter to Two o'Clock.

__,-...---
RO USE OF LORDS, AUGUST 14.
~, The D ROYAL ASSENT.
W
tiills ,";°)'al Assent was given by Commission to Exchequer
o b\-`1,,,044,550/.) Bill, the Exchequer Bpillstie(sPußbillilc,
Trarn:c.i Bill, Four and a Half per Centtnn u
ce. 'r;er of Funds (War Office) Bill, Pensions Bill, Bene-
si "Thrinralities BM Militia Pay Bill, Militia Ballots. Suspen-
eirldk,aiill:lw,
la
of Pleading Bill, Oaths Validity Bill,. Mails
Bill, Meterranean Postage Bill,
.Puobfliccolrvne.-
*alit Bill, Coal Trade (London, &c.) Bill, Duchies
Corn-
Stock Lancaster Bill, Slave Trade Treaties Bill, Joint
Ci," uanks Bill, Fines and Recognizances (Ireland) Bill,
'-a )0-
lur 1 rate Property (Ireland) Bill, County of Clare Trea-
-1%. Ilin, and the Sugar Refining Patent Bill.
of CC Commissioners were the Lord Chancellor, the Marquis
.I,4nsdowne, and the Earl of Shaftesbury.
Fi„''''' Lotto CHANCELLOR took his scat on the Woolsack at
•e .
The Clock.
The Private Bill Deposit Bill went through a Committee.
and Valuation of Land (Ireland) Bill was read a third time
NI Prissy d.
\i''SPAPERS.—INSERTIONS OF SCHEDULES
BILL.
et.°Tl the motion of Lord BROUG HAM, the Insertions of
a third
tiodules Bill was read a second time, committneodt, readhav e taken
~l'elel, and. passed. The
ieNoobbleect Loortdbe would
f Bill not been to v,tt aiquck !te
glaring injustice to the jPropriFetors of Newspapers.
pre-
the
he Marquis of LA NSDO WN .., though he had not reade
thatßill, was so convinced of the injustice it was to rem dy,
4t he gave it his strongest support.
PUBLIC EDUCATION.
Jogord BROUGHAM having dictated an order respecting a
t,ignie t case which he had given on a former day, took the
';:,_e'onn occasion of referring to the Bill on public education
ti..'lleh headintroduced at an early period of the session, and
kiliLed that their Lordships were aware of the reasons which had
of leed him not to press forward that Bill—viz., the pressure.
Measure
business. The Canada question was the first public
tc,,B4re which had interposed since he introduced the Bill, and
ti ~"Learlie the slavery question, and recently the Canada ques-
pt; ,`14(1 been again brought forward, so that he found it iro-
fitl':le to hope that either their Lordships or himself could
ev,..t"ne to entertain the education measure. He had, how-
Dkrt, ree2ived a vast number of letters on the subject from all
at)es,of the kingdom, and a deputation of between forty
Of lie itY
EPstablersons
ish of all sects and religious opinions, whether
hih.led Church or Dissenters, had waited on
that tlllon the subject of the Bill, the result of which was
one hsall agreement or understanding had been come to upon
Nii ''ost important point, viz., that which had reference to
io,gll.lls instruction. It was admitted that the authorised ver-
llatr°l the Holy Scriptures should form the basis of religious
diffie4e,tion imparted.
regard was, indeed, a sine qua non. Some
.1,,,,,:1itY was felt as ged the Roman Catholics and the
Jthats on this reading of the Scriptures, and it was suggested
ews
when it took pace the children of both Catholics and
fear% 410tild not be required to be present. He entertained no
The ;''.ltatever but all difficulty on that head would be removed.
thr"'ssenters, as well as the Catholics and Jews required
Itrkie,Ohildren should not be called upon to take part in the in-
th, ',!:111 when the subject was connected with the teaching of
toak; 'lurch Catechism or the Thirty. nine Articles. The three
atre.:ls to be observed, to which he h?lieved all parties would
and •' Were, in essentialibus unitas, in non essentialibus libertas,
these 14 omnibus caritas. The only difficulty in carrying out
kiltilaxims would be as to the interpretation of them. The
'4o!_ and Learned Lord then said he would withdraw his Bill.
LBill was consequently, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
Ql4, 'I LYNDHURST rose to present a petition from
charitv' signed by 600 of the most wealthy mere
tl , for bankers of that city, complaining of the state
It ,:. 'oreign trade of this country, and seeking for redress.
th, 4_B not his intention to enter into a detailed statement of
klll),,reT:ltters complained of by the petitiont,rs—he should
iy -i 'llurtly refer , thcae. and cuter int,, the matter Inure
tlit4 n tile next oess,en. The Noble and e d Lk ti
referred to the state of the foreign trade of thc

country, from which it appeared that in almost ever:), article
a great falling off in the demand had taken place. This was the
consequence of the supineness of the Government, in conse-
quence of which establishments had arisen in central Germany,
which promised fair to compete with this country: This he
would venture to say would not have been the case if a little di-
plomatic skill had been shown by a Noble Lord in another place ;
By the treaty of Vienna the waters of Poland had. been de-
clared open to all the world, but by the subjugation of that
country the Russian Tariff had been established, and that treaty
had been violated.
The Noble Lead was here interrupted by the Usher of the
Black Rod appearing at the Bar, and informing their Lordships
that the Managers on behalf of the Commons were ready for a
conference upon the Imprisonment for ,Debt Bill. The Noble
Lords composing the conference were the Earl of Devon,
Lord Abingdon, Lord Hawarden, the Bishop of Hereford,
Lord Redesdale, Lord Rayleigh, and Lord De Mauley.
On the return of the conference,
The Earl of Devon stated that their Lordships had disagreed
to certain of the amendments, and agreed to others.
A Conference was also had upon the Sheriffs' Courts (Scot-
land) Bill.
Lord LYNDHURST then resumed. Another point re-
lated to Cracow—it was provided by the Treaty of Viena, that
no armed force should enter into that Republic. In violation of
that treaty an armed force had entered, and altered
its laws.—( Hear, hear.) It was then felt necessary
that a Consul should be appointed there; a representa-
fion was made to the Noble Lord at the head of the
Foreign Department on the subject, he promised that a
Consul should be appointed, but he had broken his
faith upon that subject, and the consequence was
that the trade of this country there had been greatly injured.
Another point was with respect to the trade in gum. Vessels
in that trade had been seized by France, and no redress had
been sought by the Government. Our trade with Java and
Algiers, which was at one time considerable, had been almost
annihilated, in consequence of the breaking of treaties which the
Government of this country had not sought to protect. What
!gad led to the situation of this country with respect to Persia,
but the conduct of the Foreign Government of England. The
Noble Lord concluded by stating his intention to enter into the
subject more fully in the next Session.
Viscount MELBOURNE, considering the great spirit of
speculation that had taken place, thought it was not extraor-
dinary that the exports of the country had failed. The peti-
tion was signed in June last, and he thought he might complain
of the Noble and Learned Lord that the presentation of the
petition had been postponed to the end of the session. It
might be better that the subject should have no effect at that
time ; but if the commercial interests of the country were
neglected, as the petitioners said, the petition should have
been brought forward at an earlier day, The Noble and
Learned Lord stated that the exports had decreased during
the last year. It was true that during the last two years
the exports to all parts of the world had decreased; but
when over-trading and the embarrassments of the United
States were taken into consideration, it was not a matter
to excite surprise or alarm for the future. No doubt there
would be that revival of trade whirl. in all commercial affairs
was common. The Noble and Learned Lord had pointed
to the commercial union on the continent of Europe, under
the guidance of Prussia, and which combined the inte-
rests of so many States of Germany. If that union was hos-
tile to the trade of this country, they had no right to com-
plain. It was a league they had a right to form, and when
the Noble and Learned Lord said a little political address
might have prevented it, he (Lord Melbourne) did not
know how that could have been done. The main object of
that union was a prohibition ; but whilst we ourselves kej t
so high a prohibition against the stable commodities of other
nations, we could not complain.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
and Learned Lord had alluded to the state of Poland, upon
which he did not then wish to make any observation. He
really thought the Noble and Learned Lord exaggerated
when it was asserted that his Noble Friend pledged himself to
send out an agent to Cracow. The next point was a dis-
pute with France on the subject of the gum trade, on the coast
of Senegal. Although the Noble and Learned Lord made
out negligence, that really was not the case, and the Noble and
Learned Lord might depend that neither the interests of the
merchants nor the honour of the country would be sacrificed.
With respect to the duties of Java, they arose in consequence
of the treaties of 1824. The Noble and Learned Lord raid
nothing of an hostile character, and he should say nothing
more than that himself and other Members of the Govern-
ment thought they had taken more pains than their pre-
decessors to settle that question. With respect to Holland,
unexpected circumstances had tended to reduce our in-
fluence ; but they had induced her to receive British ves-
sels on the footing of the most friendly nation. They then
came to the affairs of Algiers. The occupation of that part
of Africa by the French was satisfactory, and they had a right
to adopt such commercial regulations as they thought proper.
With respect to Persia he did not deny that the Court of that
Empire was under the influence of a certain foreign power,
but he did not know that anybody was to blame for this.
Mech of this was owing to a former wo- in which Persia had
been engaged, and by which she had lost a considerable por-
tion of territory ; but, at all events, he did not think this in-
fluence was caused by the treaty which had been entered into
by Russia with Turkey. and to which the Noble and Learned
Lord seemed to attribute it entirely. Of this, however, he
was sure, that it was not to be attributed to the lukewarmness
of her Majesty's Ministers in reference to anything that re-
lated to the honour and ch-actor of this country, and he
trusted that the community would feel that neither its
honour nor its interest would, for one moment, be lost sight of
or forgotten.—( Hear, hear. )
Viscount STRANGFORD then proceeded to say that he
had given notice on a former night of his intention to put a
question to the Noble Lord at the head of the Government,
in reference to the present state of our foreign commercial re-
lations. His purpose would be fully answered if the facts which
he would state, and the observations which he should offer on
those facts, induced her M ijesty's Government to take such
steps as were right and necessary, in order that the grievance
which affected foreign commerce might be removed.—( Hear. )
If they did not do this, the result would be that they would
have to meet again, probably in November, not as they did
last year for the purpose of applying a remedy to a disease,
but to apply a remedy to meet the consequences arising from
a rash and inconsiderate concession made to a foreign power.
—( Hear, hear.) The N able Lord then proceeded to advert
to the blockade which the French had established on the
coast of Mexico, and he had to lament that this country had
not interfered to prevent this blockade, which was so pre-
judicial to British interests. Surely it could not be that our
Foreign Minister, who had served for so many years under so
many different Governments, who had eaten of the bread of
nine' Administrations—( A laugh)—who had served so many
apprenticeships under so many different masters, was unable
to understand, or incapable of performing the duties connected
with his high and responsible office.—( Hear, hear.) He
wished to know what steps ha .l been taken by this Govern-
ment to save the re üblies of South America from the aggres-
sions which had been of late constantly practiced towards them
by the French Government.—( Hoar, hear.) The system of
aggression adopted by the French towards these republics
was peculiar in its nature. He would just give their Lord-
ships an instance. The French Government male a demand
upon the Government of Mexico, for compensation on ac-
count of losses sustained by the French inhabitants of that
place during the disturbances which had occurred there.
The compensation d maanded was 600,000 dollars, or
120,000/. sterling. The Mexican Government resisted the
demand, on the ground of its being an exorbitant one.
Whether it was so or not he would leave it to their Lordships
to say, when he stated one of the items which formed a part
of this sum. A French pastrycook, whose shet) was pillaged
of sundry puffs, tarts, and sweetmeats, during the disturbances
by the soldiers, magnifies this attack upon his tarts as an out-
rage against the Goren-uncut of Louis Philippe arid the great
French nation—( A laugh)—and accordingly makes the da-
mage done to him to amount to 20,000 dollars, or 5,0001. ster-
ling. Of such items was the 120,000/. demand composed,
and because this was not paid a blockade is declared by the
Admiral on the station ; and thus is an interruption given to
the direct trade of this country with Mexico, which amounted
annually to something like four millions sterling.—( Hear,
hear.) A stop was also put in a great measure to the mining
transactions between this cauntry and Mexico in con-
sequence of this blockade. Then, again, with respect to
Buenos Ayres the same game was played by the French. The
Noble Lord then adverted to what he called the worst part of
the conduct of the French in reference to the north-cast part of
the Brazils. This was a question of boundary. The matter was
left to the celebrated Baron Humboldt, who decided in favour of
the claims of the Portuguese, and against that put forward by
the French Government. The French, however, would not
accept the decision, and they seized on a territory in the
Brazils extending to three hundred miles.—( Hear, hear. )
Now, nothing whatever was dons by us to prevent this
most unjust aggression on the part of the French. But
it might be said, were our interests affected by this con-
duct ? He would answer in the affirmative, for by it
the French made themselves masters of the great river the
Amazon, and of the several smaller rivers that were tributary
to it, and they thereby commanded and controuled any inter-
course that might be had with the great body of Indians that
dwelt on the banks of the river Amazon. This aggression,
too, was justified by the French Government, for the Cham-
ber of Deputies voted a sum of money for the support of
those who held possession of the territory on the part of the
French Government, and lately the French Ministers justify
the occupation of the place, in consequence of the advan'age
which it is to the French nation —( Hear, hear.) He thought
that these were matters that called for the serious considers.
tion of the Government, and he owned that lie was not a little
surprised that interference on our part had been so long
withheld. He wished for no quarrel with the French, but
he implored her Majesty's Ministers to exercise their moral
influence to restrain France from doing that to weaker states
which is manifestly injurious to the prosperity of the country
which lives, moves, and has its being in the success of our
commercial relations.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord was
about to conclude by putting a question, when he was inter-
rupted by
Lord BROUGHAM, who rose and said—My Lords, if I
had been aware that my Noble and Learned Friend had in-
tended to have brought the subject forward, I should certainly
have prepared myself to have entered into the discussion ; but
as such has not been the case, I will trouble your Lordships
with a few observations only generally upon the subject. I
must, however, my Lords, in the first place, bear testimony
to the very able, clear, and masterly statements of my Noble
and Learned Friend in bringing before your Lordships, at the
very close, I admit, of the Session, and at a time when there
is not an opportunity of bestowing upon it that attention which
a subject of such magnitude deserves—namely, the subject of
the whole foreign relations of this country, through the me-
dium cat witiett our comin,,reial interests arc carried on and
protected. Although, toy Lords, the petitioners only refer to
tASete QWU interests, yet the general interests of the country

are involved in the subject. The observations of my Ri
Hon. Friend, who had last addressed your Loriships, were
only with reference to one branch of the discussion—namely,
the foreign relations of this country with those of South Ame-
rica. My Noble and Learned Friend who presented the peti-
tion has taken a wider range, for his observations applied to
the subject generally. I also, my Lords, understood my Noble
Friend, in addition to entering into the foreign relations
of the New World, to refer very properly, I admit, to
the eastern parts of the old, with respect to which his opinions
are entitled to great weight and consideration, from the fact
of his having for a considerable period lent his valuable assis-
tance in watching over the interests of this country- in that
quarter, and I have no doubt that her Majesty's Ministers
during the recess will accede to his request, and bestow their
best attention on this important though somewhat complicated
subject. With respect to the still greater question which my
Noble and Learned Friend has brought before your Lordships
as to the diminution of the influence and power of this country,
and of the diminution in the amount of the commerce of the cowl:
try, if the facts are as he has represented them, of which I enter-
tain not the slightest doubt, because I am sure my Noble and
Learned Friend would not have stated them without he had full
grounds for doing so—if the facts are, my Lords, as he has stated
them, then, unquestionably, they deserve the best and most
serious attention of Parliament and the Executive Govern-
ment. It is a most hard and unhappy circumstance, but it is
nevertheless true, that at the end of so many years of peace,
and of a peace, it must be remembered, succeeding a war of
unexampled brilliancy and success—after such brilliancy and
gfftonerre
enemies,
oehrne
epusue:h-
success of the British arms—after the brilliant con-
tests which have crowned our efforts with greater
success than at any other period of the history of this country
pecuniarypEoasEnglish
s fhm aiding resourcesae y
oht
al se
rg haspaoewo
evbreesre nto
—after such pecuniary sacrifices—after the expenditure of our
againstmthoe t Continentthlaeiri sfho—r lavish—after
after victories obtained in all parts of the world, from the rising
of the Sun in the East to its going down in the West
whether in the East or in the West, in Spain er in France,
or in Belgium, where our crowning victory was gained—afte;
all these unexampled successee and after such an ex-
penditure of blood and treasure, it is a most unhappy
circumstance that the influence of England, as regards
Foreign Powers should have fallen beck instead of having in-
creased.—( Cheers. ) Such a state of things, my Lords, is
deeply to be deplored, and furnishes matter' for melancholy
consideration. It is a most unhappy state of things, but no one
can say, that throughout the whole of these proceedings, the
conduct of Great B. itain has not been wholly disinterested.—
( Cheers.) I am sure, my Lords, that no nation in Europe
can say that England ever fought or spent her money for any
selfish British objects.—( Cheers.) I • differed, my Lords,
from those who thought the carrying on of the war necessary,
but at the same time, I feel bound to bear testimony to the
purity of the motives of those who carried on the war.
(Cheers.) It is vexatious, my Lords, after the expenditure
of so much blood and treasure, that England should have
greatly lost her influence instead of being clothed with
the character of a mediator for the rest of the world.
I look forward to the re-construction of the whole fabric of
European dominion—l look forward to the establishment of
new arrangements and new relations with regard to our foreign
intercourse, upon the principles of civil, not of religious, re-
formation—l look forward to the time when this country will
stand at the head of the liberal and constitutional party in
Europe, in the same manner as she was the protectress of the
principles of reformation in the time of Elizabeth. My Lords,
my political creed with respect to our foreign affairs is simple
—and I speak with due deference before those Noble Lords
who possess a more intimate acquaintance with diplomatic laws
—the meridian line which I should draw through the great
and inexplicable map of Continental affairs, with all its en-
tanglements and confusion—the meridian line which I should
draw through the whole, and to which I should refer the se-
veral parts, would be England and France, friends, and upon
constitutional and liberal principles—principles of perfect equa-
lity and absolute independence—of pure and unsullied national
honour on the one side and on the other—the one neverattempt-
ing to infringe upon the other—the one never endeavouring to
lower the other or to throw distrust or suspicion upon its pro-
ceedings, because such distrust would be sure to end in hostility ;
but maintaining the relation of amity, and it might of alliance
together, and then they may in. the first place defy the world
in arms, and, in the next place, dictate peace to the world,
and preserve the peace of the world upon such principles as
would be most conducive to the improvement and happiness of
mankind.—( Hear, hear.) My Lords, I heartly rejoice to
think that these two great nations continue to stand towards
one another in those relations of confidence, good will, and
friendship, and although the circumstance may appear trifling, I
cannot help, as small objects appear great when near at hand, ad-
verting to a matter at which I was very much pleased, namely, the
excellent reception given to the foreign Ministers generally, on a
late occasion, as evincing the friendly dispositions of
this country) but particularly to that very illustrious
warrior (Marshal Soult) whom the Noble Duke oppo-
site ( Wellington) admitted to have been one of his
most formidable opponents, although that Noble Duke had
defeated him, for beat him, I believe to have been impossible.
This I look upon as a very happy circumstance, as tending to
cement and consolidate those feelings of good will between the
two countries. Now, with respect to our interference in the af-
fairs of the East, I must say, that the less we interfere, accord-
ing to my rude and unlettered view of the subject, the better.
That there may be occasions when we must interfere,
I admit, and then it should be done firmly and with-
out the least apprehension of consequences, and thus
far I go with my Noble Friend opposite ( Lord Strangford.)
It was no proof of the weakness of a nation to refrain from
interference in small matters—tranquillity and repose were
generally the characteristics of power and might, and a confi-
dence in the resources which were at command, rather than of
weakness and imbecility. Weak nations were generally
jealous of their reputation; and I have often heard it said that
little men are touchy and testy—( A laugh)—and apt to attri-
bute puny and personal motives to others merely because their
own ideas and intellects are stunted and contracted ; and as it
is with these pigmies so it is with nations. The stunted under-
standings of such men and such nations cannot soar up to
comprehensive and enlarged ideas carried into effect by disie.
terested and straightforward men. So it is with little nations
—I mean small in mental power, who ascribe the honest and
straightforward actions of other countries to motives which
they are incapable of. Therefore I do not think that
avoiding interference, and remaining tranquil on certain occa.
sions, makes us less weak in times when we are called upon to
exercise our power and authority. Ido not mean ":thelbalance
of power" as it has been termed, but the weight and influence
which we should have in foreign affairs at any given time in
any part of the world. Circumstances may arise in which
neither my Noble Friend, nor Lord Chatham himself if he
were living, with all the resources of the British empire at his
command—with a unanimous House of Parliament, instead of
a House of Lords against him, and narrow majorities in the
House of Commons in his favour—l believe with even all these
favourable circumstances my Noble Friend could not have gained
more weight than he has, or could not have altered the course
of events, unless he had gone to war with all mankind--
that last most desperate, and, unless unavoidable, most guilty
of courses, unless the preservation of our country requires it,
—(Hear.) My Lords, lam not satisfied, any more than my
Noble Friend at the head of Foreign Affairs, at the course
pursued by the French Government with respect to Algiers.
It is not at all creditable to that Government, that having in
the first instance stated that they did not intend to occupy that
country, nevertheless have held it for seven years—it is, to
say the least of it, very unsatisfactory. Ido not believe, nor
is it consistent with nay knowledge or recollection of any
opinion professed in public, or stated privately by my Noble
Friend, that he ever said, either that he approved of, or was satis-
fied with, the course pursued by the Fi ench Government. But
it is one thing to be dissatisfied, and another to demand satisfac-
tion. It might be said why did not my Noble Friend remonstrate
—why did he not send Ambassadors ? Why did he not threaten ?
But, my Lords, if there is a mode more simple, more short,
and more sure than any other to lose all the influence a nation
possesses, it is to threaten what you do not mean to do.—
( Hear and cheers.) It is the same with respect to nations as
it is in individual cases, and I think therefore that my Noble
Friend does wisely not to threaten until he is ready to act ;
not to act until the necessity arises, and to pass over minor
matters where much more important objects are to be gained
by the concession, and where more important interests are at
stake.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") For the reasons I have
already stated I cannot enter more largely into the
different matters adverted to in this petition, but I wish to
say one word with respect to our commercial policy. It ap-
pears that up to 1836 our foreign trade had been going on
prosperously, but since then in Poland, in the Levant, and the
Dardanelles, there has been a falling off. lam not much sib--
prized at this falling off during past y ears, but I look with still
more apprehension
to another point, the future—because I
know that there are circumstances in the position in which we
stand with regard to the Northern and Eastern Powers of
Europe, where the defalcation principally is—there are cir-
cumstances of a nature that must not only not diminish the
amount of the defalcation, not only not equal the present
amount, but in my opinion tend very greatly to increase that
.
defalcation, and against which circumstances no one struggle
that we have hitherto made, up to the last three years, has
proved successful—circumstances, which will in the end, 1
fear, defeat that vivida vis of Engli di commerce, which has t
en-
abled it to overcome and surmount obstacles and difficulties that
no other nation could contend w ith ; much of this arises from the
vicious system of commercial legislation which at present exists.
What is one of them—just observe : you cannot trade with the
east of Europe unless you allow it to trade with you in return
Now, take the Baltic : timber is there cultivated, they,have the
finest timber, the best for ship-building, it is the best for the
hull, and the best for the masts; if you want to trade with
them the natural course is to enable them to send home their
timber for your hardware, your cotton and silk goods ; but
what do you do ? Why you levy a duty on Baltic timber for the
purpose of protecting the growers of timber in Canada, the
Canadian timber being of a decidedly inferior description.
Gentlemen in the other House thought fit to decree that the
Baltic trade should be stunted to all time by a majority of forty,
and be restrained from gaining its natural dimensions in order
to protect the disadvantageous commerce of Canada; and you
therefore have a worse article, not at a cheaper, but a dearer
rate. Now this is not the fault of the Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs, but of the system. I will now give your Lord-
ships another reason for the decline of trade : you don't deal in
timber alone—you deal in corn.._( Laughter.) The great
staple of those countries bordering on the Baltic, next to tim-
ber, is grain: Plentiful and cheap as is the grain produced in
those countries, it is peremptorily said to the people, not-
withstanding, " You shall not only have bad houses,
but dear
bread." And yet, at the very time you stunt
the Baltic trade in its two great staples of timber and
grain, you complain that the teed.- of this ceuntry
with the Baltic has fallen oil'. I'o be sure, it must tali of'.
The consequence of this system of policy is, that you ruin
your commerce and force the people to cat dear brcad, and to