The Sun.
London, England, 1854-02-28 00:00:00

'ac men, and again to re juin them to state what the pre-
Oise size of the scale should he, whether 20, 24, or 26 I
inches. Upon Vote he had already mentioned that
there was a sum of 133,00)/, for machinery, anti that he
should return to the subject, as it was possible that, with
regard to some portion of the vote, there might be some
difference of opinion. In the first instance, he asked the
house to consider the two items he proposed to take for
the improvement of the machinery of the Royal carriage
department and of the Royal laboratory at Woolwich,
amounting together to 138,0001. Those gentlemen who
had looked into the estimates of this year would be aware
of the enormous sums paid in wages in these establish-
ments, amounting, he thought, to somewhere about
75,0001. Ho ;was sorry to say that the Royal laboratory
was at present considered in the light of a manufactory
in an extremely primitive state. (Hear.) The rooms in
it were so small that it was impossible to have any effec-
tive superintendence over the workmen in order to see
that they attended to and conducted their work pro-
perly. It was of the utmost importance that in any
man-afactory the order of manufacture should be consecu-
tive, that when a part of anything was manufactured, it
should not be requisite to have it moved first in one direc-
tion, and then in another. At present that simple rule was
not attended to, and on account of the insufficient arrange-
ments there were considerable difficulties, particularly at
the present moment, in making this department keep pace
with the demands of the service. He would ask the house
to consider what the necessary effect of this was. He had
already stated that on account of the present position of
are department he referred to, it was difficult for it to
keep up with the present requirements. The consequence
was that the ordnance department was required to keep
large stores in hand in a time of peace, in order that, not
having the means of producing largely at any given period,
it should be able to supply the wants of the service at a
time when any great call might be made upon it. It was
thus necessary to keep large stores in hand, and the result
frequently was that a great number of the articles kept in
store became obsolete, and, in addition, carriages became
rotten and many things utterly useless. All these took up
room, though, for the reasons he had described, without
costing an enormous sum tnthe country. Many of these
carriages could not possibly be-good for anything except
firewood ; consequently, in an age of invention like this,
when different discoveries so soon became absolete, it was
necessary in any establishment for warlike stores to arrange
it in such a manner that at any given time the stores could
be rapidly reduced. At the present moment these two de.
partments—the Royal Carriage Department, which pro-
&mad all the gun carriages, and the Royal Laboratory.
which produced all our projectiles of war—expended in
wages at least 75,000/. ; at least, that was the sum
put down in this estimate, though he should deceive
the house if he were not to tell them that he pro-
bably might have to call on for a further vote. The
new machinery would cost from 85,0001. to 90,0001.
which at 3 per cent. represented 3,0001. and he was in •
formed b 7 the persons most competent to judge—by offices
of the highest experience and ability—that this expendi-
ture would reduce the amount spent in wages at least one-
half, if not more • so that a saving of 37,5001. annually
would be effected' by the expenditure of a sum the interest
of which amounted to about 3,0001. In the Royal Car-
riage Department, which, owing to the efforts of Colonel
Coote, whose loss they had this year to deplore, was in a
More advanced state than the Royal Laboratory, there had
been effected in this manner a saving of labour, as calcu-
lated on a comparison of the years 1844 and 1854, to the
extent of at least one-sixth, only 895 men being now needed
where formerly 1,094 men must have been employed. It
was clear, therefore, that the course which they proposed
to adopt would be a great saving in the annual expendi-
ture of the Ordnance, and it would prevent the necessity
of keeping so large a stock on hand, and in every way con-
for the greatest benefits on the contrary. The next sum
was probably one on which there would be more conten-
tion—it was the sum of 100,0001. for the erection of a gun
factory. He begged the hiuse to understand that it was
not proposed to multiply Government factories—in fact,
two Government factories were to be discontinued. At
present Government had an establishment at Birmingham,
which this year cost 5,0941. and one at Enfield, which
cost 7,3831. It was proposed to get rid of these two fac-
torien—each of them, from their position, could probably
be disposed of very profitably—and in their place to erect
a grin factory somewhere.du the, neighbourhood of Wool-
wialh. The Board of Ordnance had but one thing to con-
sider, and that was to get the best arm at the cheapest
rate. (Hear, hear.) That, of course, was the only conside-
rittion which could weigh with them, but at the same time
le should be very sorry that it should be supposed that he
was at all indifferent to the position of the gunmakers who
'seemed to consider themselves aggrieved by what was about
to be done. The question had been forced on the considera- ,
tiosa of the board at the time of the first introduction of the
Minie rifle into our service. When the board was called
on to produceMinierifles sufficientforthe whole army, they
would have been neglecting their duty if they had not
taken in consideration the system which had prevailed up
to that time, whether it had worked well, and whether, on
the whole, it was calculated efficiently to supply the wants
of the service. Two gentlemen of great experience and
ability proceeded to Birmingham and other places where
guns were manufactured. They reported the gun trade to
be—

" Altogether in a very lamentable state, and far behind any
other trade to which it can be compare. With the exception
of the barrel of the musket, they found the greater portion
produced by hand-labour alone. At the bayonet works
which they visited hardly any machinery worthy of the name
is employed, and, consequently, the expense of a bayonet is
considerably more than double what it may be expected to be
made by machinery."
For the last 10 years the Board of Ordnance had been en-
gaged in a struggle with the gunmakers. He would not
deny that there might be faults on both sides, but he be-
lieved he could show positively that on the side of the gun-
makers there were very considerable faults. The system
pursued by the Board of Ordnance was fully considered by
a committee of that house which sat in the year 1849,
from whose report the following was an extract :
" Your committee made some' inquiries into the mode of
contracting for muskets, with a view of ascertaining whether
any reduction could be made in their cost without endanger-
ing thJ efficiency of the weapon supplied. Upon this point
conflicting opinions will be found in the evidence. The
weight of the musket is in great measure regulated by the
length and calibre of the barrel. These points have been de-
cided by the highest military authority, and this decision
your committee suppose was made on sufficient reasons. Ob-
jections which have been urea} agZust the present rigid sys.
tem of inspection do not appear to rest on any valid grounds.
Jt is the duty of the Board of Ordnance to take every security
that the muskets supplied shall conform to the pattern ap-
proved, and your committee have not heard that any
favouritism has been imputed to the viewers or other officers
employed in this service."
In the year 1851 tenders were called for for what was than
called the Minie musket, and on the 26th of June, 1852,
the following petition was received froze the military gun-
lock makers:—
" Consequences to be deplored have resulted from this state
of things, for the men have frotn time to time embrszed re-
munerative employment, as, for instance, great numbers are
employed upon revolving pistols; awl at this present juncture
we could not rely upon more'than 20, or at most 30 efficient
workmen to exetmte your order; and we are sorry to say that
the difficulties that surround us absolutely deter us from un-
dertaking to supply a specifisd quantity, and it would be im-
possible to supply the quantity required."
The difficulties with regard to the production of this mus-
ket were so great that it was nearly two years after the or-
der was given that the whole of it was supplied. During
the last year there had been an order given for 2,000 car-
bines for the artillery, and, though the first steps were
taken as far back as the beginning of March, the whole of
that order had not been received at this moment. At the
beginning of last year 20,000 new Minie rifles were ordered;
tenders were called in—not called fromLondonor Birming-
ham or any one particular place—but from all England,
Scotland, or Ireland ; those received being unsatisfactory,
were declined, and new tenders advertised for in the pa-
pers. This failed to excite any more competition, and Sir
T. Hastings, the Controller of the Stores, a gentleman of
the highest intelligence and experience, and one who was
considered by all the gunmakers as one of the moat just
and fair officers, went down to Birmingham, and, having
succeeded in makingl better terms, ordered 20,000 muskets
there. This was on the 26th Oct. 1853, and since then
they had received from the gunmakers numbers of letters
alleging various reasons for the non-completion of this or-
der. With some it was a general strike of the workmen—
others had been unable to get rod makers, others had made
miscalculations of other descriptions, but with almost
all, for one reason or other, there was a total im-
possibility of doing the work. There was one part
of the present system- which the board had to con-
sider; and they had also to consider the price for which
the musket could be made. The task they had before them
was to provide a new musket for the whole of the army—
including artillery, marines, and coastguard, the price of
which at present would be something under 31. a-piece.
They were strongly warned by many of the ablest officers
in the army that it was not safe for the country to rely
upon the existing system, and they turned their attention
in the first place to the system which prevailed in the
United States. There they found that the Government
had in its hands three gun factories capable of turning out
500 rifle muskets a-day at 375. a-piece. They found also
an ample amount of muskets in store, and the latest im
provements of Machinery, by means of which the different
parts of the musket were made with such accuracy that the
parts of one musket fitted into the parts of any other in-
discriminately. He had been told that bags of the differ-
ent materials of which muskets were composed were mit
to Mexico, and that, being opened on their arrival there,
the parts were taken out promiscuously and fitted into each
other with as much nicety as if each had been made speci-
ally for the other. That he believed was what could not
be said of two of Purday's rifle muskets out of the same
ease. But there was also another consideration. In 1841
the percussion arm was introduced into our service, and,
1.1. P. the old flint muskets being thus rendered useless—for
the attempt to alter them was never successful—the ex-
tue,,, of course, was enormous. But did they think that
now Pre- about to introduce would retain for many years the
eminence which
visable it now enjoyed ? And was it not ad-
on that account to tiovise some means which would
render
in
it tele
of muskets eeessary to retain such an inordinate number
being put to a store, and avoid the risk of the country
when the peresuimilar expense as that which was incurred
When the bulte musket came into use ? (Hear.)
Ordnance, and
Lardwellington was Mister-General of the
they decided that the llArdinge Clerk of the Ordnance,
store should be 457, Tit
rer of muskets to be kept in
00.
was oat, without going to that enor-
mous number, it
clear that with the pre-
sent amount of produjnteat our disposal, 3 )),ODJ
was a sufficient store to keen up, putting the
requirement of the colonies on
ouee
however, of producing 500 tuasketsuttBt:hidy,e* With a power,
we should mani-
festly be in a better position Nvithuvr
xuskets in store
than we had been before with
theoiding the risk
of great los4 in future, besides saving
ntuabam capital repre-
sented by the difnrenco in thi twi
this factory, upon the moat iniuute cdcolatft')in°s‘''w"hticohf
coal be made, was 150,0001. It should be
, bobusteril)ra onets
ed that
the factory would produce, not only zauskots
also. He had said that ho would ask the commityte
consider the financial effects of the measure he Pr eto
For the line there would be required 110,0 )0 mijef)moseuus
kets; for the artillery, 10,000 ; for the marines, 15,000
and for the militia, 50,000; the number for store being
300,000, or, altogether, 485,000, exclusive of the colonies
and the East India Company. 485,000 muskets, at 31,
each, would cost 1,455,0001.; but the highest authorities
believed that the musket might be produced for 1/. 103.
Ile had stated that the price for which the musket was
produced in the United States was 37:>. each; but, consi-
dering the improvements which it was believed by those
best competent to form an opinion on the subject—by those
Who were engaged in designs for the factory—could be
made on the American machinery, he was prepared to ex-
Prase the belief that the musket could be produced at the
Proposed factory for 30s. (Hear.) Taking this estimate,
the saving that would be effected upon theprevious estimate
thhe
ad
dd
_stated, of 31. each, would be 727,5001. But further,
e 5t0......L71ti0.ned that by means of the proposed system
re, in tune of Mee, mid be diminished by 200,000 ,

the differ •nc re,ulting from which would represent a capi-
tal of Coo,ooo/. in favour of the public, the interest upon
which would bo a considerable and permanent saving. All
this advantage would be realised by the outlay of 150,000/.;
from which, moreover, was to be deducted whatever the
present establishments at Birmingham and Enfield might
produce when sold. (Hear.) All these Minie rides must
have new bayonets; 485,000 bayonets at 7s. 6d., the ordi-
nary price, would cost 181,8754; but it was calculated that
at the factory they could be produced for ls. 6d. each,
which would amount to only 36,3751., or a difference in fa-
vour of the public, by means of the factory, of not less than
145,5001. (Hear, hear.) When, upon the authority of Mr.
Anderton, the same gentleman who had effected such enor-
mous savings in the royal carriage department, he could
show -the committee that, by the expenditure of the pro-
posed 150,0001., such a large amount of arms could be pro-
duced at such a vast reduction of cost, he felt that Lord
Raglan was, indeed, perfectly right in considering the mat-
ter now before the committee as one of the very highest
importance to the public service, as pre-eminently condu-
cive to-'the permanent safety and well-being of the coun-
try. Under these circumstances, he hoped the committee
would pass this vote unanimously. (Hear.) He had stated
that he did not conceive the proposed arrangement would
do the injury to the gun trade of this country which that
trade anticipated. Let it be borne in mind that our gun
trade was at present in a very low condition, whereas that
of the United States was in a very advanced state. In the
report which was presented to the house the other day,
with regard to the machinery department of the United
States Great Exhibition, it was stated that the gun trade
of America was in a very high condition, and there seemed
every redson to fear that, unless our gun trade became im-
mensely_improved, the whole trade would be transferred
to the United States. Under such circumstances, to have
a really good machinery, for the construetion of guns in-
troduced to the observation of the gunmakers of England,
whether by Government or by individuals, could not be
other than a public benefit. (Hear.) How stood the gun
trade of England now? In 1851 we exported 247,226 mus-
kets ' • in 1853 the number had fallen to 238,767. But now,
turn to pistols. In 1851. we • exported 5,333 .pistols ' • in
1853 we exported 22,235 pistols, or more than treble the
number we exported in 1851. (Hear.) How had this
happened ? Why, because Colonel Colt had introduced
among us this very system of machinery, by means of
which, producing pistols of admirable quality at a cheap
rate, we had been enabled to effect so largely increased a
demand for our pistols—surely a benefit to the gun trade
of the country, which, with regard to muskets, hail under-
gone deterioration. It was his opinion, that by the intro-
duction, in like manner, of improvements in the construc-
tion of muskets, the Government would be benefiting
our gun trade far more than the stoppage of the
intermittent Government contracts would injure it; for
those improvements would continue, and enlarge for the
trade the whole market of Europe. (Hear, hear.) He
trusted that he had now satisfied the committee, and that
he should satisfy the deputation who had waited on him
from the gunmakers, that the proposal he had made as to
a Government factory would largely benefit the public,
without vcrificing the permanent interests of the small
number of persons whom the deputation represented.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman then moved that
19,266 men be voted for the Ordnance department for the
service of the year.
Mr. MUNTZ said that the hon. gentleman had said a
good deal that was perfectly correct, but he had also
omitted to mention much that would have been equally
correct. The great cause of all the complaints on the part
of the Ordnance as against the Birmingham manufacturers
had been the Minie rifle, which, as being a weapon that
the manufacturers had only just become acquainted with,
the Ordnance officers themselves knowing very little more
about it than the manufacturers, necessarily occasioned
delays and difficulties in the commencement of its manu-
facture. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman talked of making
for 30s. a gun that cost in the ordinary way 31., but there
still remained the question as to the quality of the article.
As to the competency of the Birmingham factories to pro-
duce as many guns as were wanted, let the manufacturers
have• consecutive orders, and they would execute them to
the largest required amount. (Hear, hear.) Another
great cause of delay was the inconvenience with which the
manufacturers had to contend from the way in which the
tenders were given out, a number of thetn_beir4 issued at
the same time to different manufacturers, and no new
ones sent out until all the former ones had been completed,
so that often many of the manufacturers who had disposed
of their part of the tender were at a stand-still for work.
(Hear, hear.) His firm opinion was that there was no
difficulty whatever to procure any amount of arms that
were required, and that without going to America, or
any other country for them than our own. (Hear, hear.)
He suggested that the vote relative to this matter should
be suspended for two months, with which time he would
undertake to give ample proof to the house that
our manufacturers were fully able to produce any
amount of arms that might be considered requisite within
the required time • and, if he could not within such time
produce such proof, he would offer no further opposition
to the suggestion of Government. He thought it would
be the greatest folly to rush into erecting a mill in the way
recommended, and he felt convinced that, even if such a
mill were allowed to be made, no arms would be got oat
of it for at least two years ; and, in his opinion, nothing
at all would be gained by it, except an additional and a
useless expense. (Cheers.)
The CHAIRMAN reminded the hon. member for Bir-
mingham that the question now before the house was, not
as to the expediency of establishing a mill, but the esti-
mates as to the number of men. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel DUNNE could bear testimony to the efficiency
of the artillery troops, which he considered to be equal to
any artillery in Europe. He thought the improvements
contemplated with reference to the practice -at WoAwich
most advantageous, as the present grounds were certainly
not sufficient for field guns, for which, if a proper range could
be obtained it would be of the greatest service to the corps.
He considered that the question as to the manufacture of
small arms was one of the highest importance, and one
which ought not to be lightly or hastily disposed of. He
should like also to see the improvements suggested carried
out in the laboratory, inasmuch as he believed them to be
necessary ; and nothing would please him more than to
see the present estimates framed upon a basis at once
efficient and perfect, and such as was not only desirable
but necessary in a time of emergency like the present.
Mr. WILLIAMS could not help noticing the very large
increase iu the number of men in the Ordnance corps and
departments, which in the years immediately preceding
1845 amounted only to about 7,000 or 8,000 in 1845, to
9,000 ; but in the present year, according to the proposed
estimates, to 19,000. (Hear, hear.) He thought the
charge of 8,5001. for the servants of the officers in the En-
gineers a very large sum, and also the amount of 120,0001.
for additional aid and allowance one that was out of all pro-
portion. Ho should be very glad to see the improve-
ments which had been spoken of carried out ; but at the
same time it was necessary that the house should use the
greatest care in voting these estimates.
The vote was then agreedt p.
The next vote was, that a sum of 902,8171. be granted
for the pay, allowance, and contingency of 19,266 officers
and men composing the Ordnance military corps.
Mr. DRUMMOND said, as the subject of great coats
had been mentioned, and as everybody followed French
fashions now-a-days, he bogged to point out —while ex-
pressing his satisfaction at the more comfortable clothing
which they were going to give the troops —a very com-
mendable custom that prevailed in the French army. In
every sentry-box in France there was a large cloak, in ad-
dition to the great coat of the soldier, and the use of this
cloak was considered by the medical men of France to be
of great advantage to the men. (Hear.) This was a mat-
ter well worth consideration. He must •say
.that he cor-
dially concurred in the proposal that the system of clothing
by the colonels should be altogether abolished, (Hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
On 557,1761. being proposed for commissariat or bar-
racks supply,
Colonel GILPIN called attention to the miserable ac-
commodation given in barracks to married soldiers The
wives of soldiers were not permitted to live in the barracks
unless they had certificates of respectability, and when re•
spectable women were thus introduced, it was exceedingly
wrong to give them the sort of accommodation they now
had in the midst of 20 or 30, or, as he had seen the other
day, 60 men. He hoped the attention of the hon. member
for Limerick would be turned to the case of these unfortu-
nate women, and that some better arrangement would be
adopted. (Hear.)
Sir W. CLAY likewise referred to the disgraceful accom-
modation given to married women in barracks, and pointed
out the want of proper ventilation, which might for a very
small sum be rectified in any barrack in the kingdom, also
the want of adequate library accommodation, the soldiers
from want of reading-rooms being compelled to read in the
dining-hall, or their bedrooms, or else take refuge in the can-
teen. He likewise pointed out the necessity that existed for
providing washing-rooms and decent utensils to wash in
for the soldiers. All these were of importance to the
health and comfort of the soldier, and, though apparently
trifling, were well worthy the attention of the Govern-
ment. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MONSELL sympathised with the kind wishes which
had been expressed for the comfort of the soldiers, but he
was sure hon. gentlemen must see how difficult it was to
carry out the views which had been put forth. In all the
new barracks the accommodation for married women had
been much improved, as, indeed, were the comforts of the
soldier generally; but, in the case of the old barracks,
great difficulty was experienced in making the required
alterations.

Colonel GILPIN suglested that, as in the case of the
colour-s"rgeants, partitions might be put up for the benefit
of married sniffle's.

Lord SE-I'Mal said, it would appear that the house
had either been niggardly in supplying the wants of the
soldier, or that the money which it voted had been very
ill-spent. It was shown before the Committee on the Ord-
nance Estimates that great improvements had of late years
taken place in the accommodations of the soldier. It was
there stated that the accommodation had increased to that
extent that the cost of supplying it for the soldiers in bar-
racks amounted to 1001. a man. Now, if that was so, the
soldier should certainly be very well supplied and well
lodged. (Hear, hear.) They hid been told that the sol-
,.

Biers had no means of washing themselves in barracks, but
he remembered that a large sum was voted for this very
purpose when the subject of lavatories wits brought for-
ward by Lord Panmure, and there was a sum taken every
year for washing in the new barracks, so that, so far from
grud;ing good accommodation to the soldiers, the had been
most liberal on their behalf. (Hear.) No blame, there-
fore, attached to that house, though he was unable to say
how the accommodation had been carried out by the proper
officers. (Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. S. KNOX,
The vote was agreed to, as were the followiatg :-
73,7191. salaries and contingencies of the Ordinance-office,

281,645/., salaries and contingencies of establishments in
the United Kingdom and the colonies.
162,3311., wagas o: artiicars, lab mrers, and others, at
the several establishments in the United Kingdom and
colonies.

On the vote of 639,5521. for Ordnance stores for land
and sea service.

r. MUN ri suggested the postponement of this vote.
MONSELL said, that a postponement was impos-

3Tr. NEWDEGATE wished, in reference to that porti on
of this vote which was for machinery and buildings for the
manufacture of small arms, to call the attention of the.
house to a document which was signed by several of the
most respectable firms in Birmingham. Those who had
signed this document on behalf of the gun trade undertook,
if the Board of Ordnance would enter into a contract, to
supply 150,000 rifle muskets within eighteen months, in
addition to the orders already in course of execution.. Now
if the Government proclaimed to the gun trade that they
wore to be cast aside, then it could not be expected that
they would make the exertions which the had dome on
former occasions. It might be said that this document was
tee
wells o far as it went, but that there was no gurtran.- ,
thits promises could be carried out. Now, from a
paper which had been published, it appeared that :from
the year 1845 to 1849 the annual number of muskets
turned out was 274,000. The consequence (of the present
system was this—that foreign soldiers, who were armed
from Birmingham, were better supplied than thofiet in our

own army. Much of the present feeling against Binning-
ham gunmakers had arisen from the conduct of the Messrs.
Lovell. - Mr. Lovell, who presided at the establishment at
Enfield, had a son who was appointed inspector at Dir.
minpam, and this son, naturally perhaps desiring to raise
the importance of the place over which his father presi-
ded, had found fault with the anus furnished by Bir-
mingham houses where no blame justly attached. Mus-
kets hail bean returned as faulty which, upon being a
second time sent in, had been passed as correct. In
another instance 23,00 J Minie rifles, which were furnished
by Birmingham, were crooked-sighted through the im-
proper conduct of the inspector. The real truth of the
matter was, that the Ordnance Board for many years was
asleep, while the French Government were taking every
means, aided by scientific men, to improve their arms. A t
length the board awoke, ordered a large quantity of Minie
rifles, but was so imperfectly, or rather improperly se-
conded by its own officer that these rifles had actually to
be returned, and almost re-manufactured, before they
were fit for use. Now, however, that a more proper in-
spector was appointed, the Government ought to pause and
consider before going to the expense of a large establish-
ment, whether the existing manufacturers could not as
well or better supply their wants. If the hon. member
(Mr. Muntz) divided, he (Mr. Newdegate) should give him
his support.
Lord JOCELYN thought that the matter really before
the house was whether the present establishment could or
could not be consolidated and improved. That there was
room for improvement was manifest from the fact that,
after an improved rifle had been ordered, it was nearly
three years before the corps for which it had been ordered
were supplied with it. It appeared to him that the argu-
ment that had been used proved the advantage of having
but one estoblishment for the use of arms. And he believ-
ed that would enable them to get rid of the establishment.
(Laughter.) He thought so because it would be such a
stimulus to private enterprise that great improvements
would be effected. He should support the Government in
this vote.

Mr. MUNTZ observed that the Government had no ma-
nufactory now, all they...lead was a,proof-house and a view-
house. Therefore, the effect would be just this : that de-
vernment would take upon themselves the manufacture of
arms instead of their being manufactured at Birmingham.
The hon. gentleman said, American guns could be manu-
factured for 38s. ; but he could inform the hon. gentleman
that the same guns could be manufacturec in this country
for 20s. to 30s. ; but after all they were not Minie rifles.
Mr. GEACH said this was not entirely a question for
Birmingham, but whether the Government was to turn
manufacturer and put itself in competition with private
enterprise in a country where private enterprise had done
more than in any other country in the world.
The honourable gentleman, the Clerk of the Ordnance,
said it was necessary that Government should
take upon themselves to supply the arms, that they should
not depend on other parties to supply them, and he also
said it would be a pattern to the trade. Now, there was
no other Government that hada manufacture to give them
a pattern, and he believed that if manufacturers depended
on Government patterns they would not sit long in that
house, for a bankrupt was not entitled to sit in the house.
Nothing was more amusing to a manufacturer than to
walk through a Government establishment and to compare
it with his own, and at the same time to listen to the lau-
dations on the machinery, and to persons pointing out
what the manufacturers should do in order to be perfect.
The hon. gentleman had referred to a gentleman of scien-
tific acquirements who was to guide them. Why he (Mr.
Geach) was at a meeting of civil engineers months ago,
when this same gentleman - (cries of Name "—Mr. An-
derton, was speaking of the size of ships, and he advised
them not to have very large ships, saying they would go
slower, and only serve to stow away more fuel. Well,
within two months there was landed the Himalaya, and
the Government were now glad enough to avail them-
selves of the Himalaya to carry troops She was the largest
ship that was ever built, tho most effective, and the most
economical. The hon. gentleman had had but little expe-
rience in the department in whith he was placed, but he
was made to feel all the inconveniences of the want of
supply. Everything was ruorted to him to show the de-
ficiency, but there might be explanations which, if they
were reported to him at the same time, would put a dif-
ferent complexion on the matter. If they once got one of
these Government establishments, they would never hear
of any difficulty ; the officers and men would believe it
was all perfection. If Government had exhausted all the
means for procuring a supply from private manufacturers
there might be some excuse for asking for a sum to esta-
blish a Government manufactory to compete with a large
trade ; but they had not exhausted all those means. He
believed that if a merchant were to have on order for
10,000 stand of arms he would get them, where Government
by their system, had not been able to do so,
Mr. MONSELL thought the hon. gentleman who had
just sat down had misrepresented in several particulars the
proposal that he made to the house. For instance, he had
spoken of Mr. Anderton a gentleman with whom they
had nothing to do. Then gentleman of whom he (Mr.
Monsell) spoke was Mr. Anderson. (A laugh.) Then the
hon. gentleman said if Government had this establishment
they would let the thing go on, and would declare it the
most admirable thing in the world. The hon. gentleman
might not have been in the house when he had the honour
of bringing forward a proposition to improve the laboratory
and carriage department at Woolwich. That showed that
the laudations of which the hon. gentleman spoke were
not all shared in by the Government. Upon the question
of the cheapest manner of doing the Government work no
hon. gentleman had addressed one word. The hon. mem-
ber for Birmingham asked him if the musket manufactured
in America was an Indian rifle. He did not know, but it
was a celebrated rifle for the execution that it did. But
he altogether mistook him, for he (Mr. Monsell) rested his
case on the American rifle' costing the American Govern-
ment only 375., and he stated that -the calculation was that
our Government manufactory would • manufacture it for
305., and that it would be as good or a better arm than
that which they now paid more than 3/. for. If that were 1
the case, the hon. gentleman surely did not mean to main-
tain that there were public grounds for resisting the propo-
sition that be had submitted to the house. If au extraor-
dinary demand bad been made to them for arms, and if
there was a necessity for providing for that demand with
the least possible delay, and they could show to the house
that they could save some 700,0001. or 800,000/. of the
public money, he thought the louse would have had good
reason to find fault with-them if they had not made the
proposition, and he thought the house would be to blame
if they did not adopt the proposition. With regard to
Mr. Lovell, he was informed that the statement now made
by the hon. member (Mr. Nrewdegate) was made to Lord
Hardinge, when he was Master-General of the Ordnance.
That statement was considered by Lord Hardinge, and he
di.l not arrive at the decision that the hon. gentleman did.
By the proposed system they would get rid of the system
which the hon. gentleman complained of. The advantages
of the proposed system might be seen in a striking manner
by those who would take the trouble of referring to the
opinion of Mr. Whyford, in which he showed that the
stock was made and the whole musket got up in 25
minutes and a half. It was not merely a ques-
tion of getting the best arm in the shortest time, but it was
a question involving most material financial considerations.
By the course they suggested they would save a large sum
of money, and certainly the arm that would be produced
would be as perfect, if not better, than that produced at
Birmingham, and there would be the advantage that all
the different parts could be put in bags, and then taken
out and put together as exact as the machinery.
Lord SEYMOUR considered the question one of consi-
derable importance, and he was sorry it had been some-
what prejudiced by being brought forward as a local ques-
tion connected with Birmingham. The question of govern.
ment manufactories had come under the consideration of
committees of that house. It was brought under the
consideration of the committee on naval estimates, and
also the committee on the ordnance estimates ; and he be-
lieved he stated no more than was the opinion of several
members of the present Cabinet, when he said their general
opinion was that Government manufactories were not ad-
visable. It might be well, it was admitted, for Govern-
ment to have some small manufactories as a check on the
private producers, but no more than that. The general
system was to be by contract. As to the cheapness of Go-
vernment manufacture, was there any man in the house
who believed it? (Hear.) Would any member of the
Cabinet get up and say he believed in the cheapness of Go-
vernment manufactories ? The only excuse for a Govern-
ment manufactory was, that they might get a good article;
they might be certain of the article, and, therefore, they
paid a great deal more tolset it. Now, they were told by
the Clerk to the Ordnance that they were to establish a
large manufactory for the supply of muskets for the army.
It was always the interest of Government to produce
largely, and therefore it was the interest of Government in
this case to produce a large quantity in a short time. An
establishment was therefore to be created capable of mak-
ing 300,000 muskets in a year. (An Hon. Member, 150,000)
Then, what was to become of the workmen when theyhad
produced this quantity ? They would have to keep up a
great establishment without any work. Why, they all
knew that if machinery was not kept going it was a great
loss. Therefore, the next reason would be, " now we
have got the machinery, let us create a store. We used
to have a store at the Tower, which was burned ; let us
have another." If it was for the present war the muskets
were required, he wanted to know when this establishment
would be at work ? Would the Clerk of Ordnance get up
and say he would undertake to produce 50,000 muskets
within two years ? If not, were they now looking forward
to and providing for some future war ? He told them that
improvements were now going on so rapidly that in four
or five years this musket would become obsolete. Then in
4 or 5 years their establishment would become obsolete.
He would, therefore, recommend the Government to post-
pone the proposal for a time ; and if the men refused to
work, or if there was anything unfair, he was sure the
house would give them the means of establishing a manu-
factory
Colonel BOLDERO recommended the Government to
pursue a similar course to that which had been pursued
with regard to the manufacture of gunpowder ; in which
case the ordnance department had manufactured from
10,000 to 12,101 barrels of gunpowder, and employed
four firms to manufacture from 2,000 to 3,000 barrels
each. This would afford the greatest facility for increas-
ing the supply without incurring unnecessary expense.
(Cries of " Divide.")
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, not-
withstanding the natural impatience of the committee at
that late hour (5 minutes past 12), he trusted the house
would allow him to say a few words. (Hear, hear.) Al-
though this was a vote on the ordnance estimates, and one,
therefore, for which his hon. friend (Mr. Monsell) was re-
sponsible, yet as the person immediately charged with the
care of the finances of the country, he should have been
deeply culpable had he allowed it to be proposed without
being entirely satisfied as to its propriety. The motives
which had induced the Government to adopt the proposal
were, in the first place, the extreme dearness of the arm
which was at present furnished to the forces ; in the
second place, the slowness with which that arm was
prepared ; and in the third place, the extreme uncertainty
of its manufacture. With respect to dearness, the pre-
sent cost of the rifle musket in this country was
3/., whereas the cost of the rifle musket in America
was 1/. 17s. An hon. gentleman had cried down the
quality of the American arms ; but he did not think lie
would be supported in that opinion. The lesson which
they had received from Col. Colt. a private American,
coming over to England to show Englishmen how to work
in metals, was most important. The remark of the noble

lord behind him (Lord Seymour), that the government
o,ight not to be manufacturers, was received with loud

cl;:era. (Cheers.) He concurred in that as a general prin-
ciple 1 but there were certain cases in which nobodydoubted
that t."ey ought to be manufacturers. Nobody doubted,
for exa,uple, that they ought to continue the manufacture

of guupo by which he believed it had been shown on
good authority that they had saved the country half a
million. There were certain specialities in certain cases,
and the question whether the government should -manu•
facture or not in a particular case, was not to be settled by
general dicta on the subject, but by the consideration of-
itose specialities. He had stated that the cost of a musket
at:, present was 31. The responsible department assured him
th at it could be manufactured for 30s. Economy, however,
wa a not the only question in the case. There was the
qutlption of rapidity and what 540 the Ordnance on that