The Sun.
London, England, 1853-06-03 00:00:00

classes as bad as any they had ever yet seen in Ireland.
The reason why tithes had created so much odium was be-
cause they had been exacted from the small tenant ; and,
without this provision, the case of the income tax would
be precisely similar. (Hear, hear.) This opposition, let it
always be remembered, was a landlord's move. (Oh.) If
the tax were levied upon the tenants there were many cases
in which it would never be allowed by the landlords ; and
they must remember the immense number of small occu-
piers in Ireland. From a recent return, the number of
holdings under two hundred acres was upwards of 500,000,
whereas the number above that was not more than 7,000
or 8,000. (Heart
hear.)
Mr. KIRK thanked the Chancellor of the Exchequer for
the important alterations he had introduced—alterations
by which the injustice of the measure as at first proposed
had been remedied. (Hear, hear.) He should give the
clause his cordial aupport.
Mr. LUCAS was also obliged to the right hon. gentleman
for the clause, but he wished to have a point explained
with reference to its operation. He wished to know
whether it was not intended to exempt the occupier from
payment altogether in every case where he gave satisfactory
information respecting the owner ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER answered
in the affirmative as far as land was concerned. With re-
spect to tenements, he had not yet obtained sufficient infor-
mation to say at what point the occupier would be relieved
from payment.
Mr. MAGUIRE wished to know when the right hon.
gentleman would be able to answer the question?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the point would not be fixed below that adopted for col-
lecting the poor rate. If that were not the point taken, it
would certainly not be much higher.
Mr. MAGUIRE said there were many persons whose
rent was 121. or 151. a year, but to whom the payment of
the tax would be a great and harassing burden.
After a few words from Mr. R. M. FOX and Mr. HAMIL-
TON, the amendment was negatived.
Mr. I. BUTT then proposed an amendment, for the pur-
pose of making the assessment compulsory on tenants above
151. a year.
Colonel DUNNE thought, if there ought to be any
exemptions, it ought to be in the towns rather than in the
country districts.
The committee divided—
For the amendment
Against it

• 61
• 170

Majority 109.a
Mr. CAIRNS then moved the following proviso:—" That
any immediate lessor of any tenements or hereditaments
in
Ireland, charged with duties under schedule A of this act,
may, within twenty days after notice of such charge, by
writing under. the hand of himself or his agent, delivered
to the officer making such charge, elect to be assessed in
respect of such tenements or hereditaments by anology to
the assessment under schedule D, and thereupon no fur-
ther proceeding shall be taken against such immediate
lessor in respect of any duty charged under schedule A for
such tenements or hereditaments ; but the duties shall be
charged on such immediate lessor under schedule D, com-
puted on a sum not less than the amount actually received
by such immediate lessor in respect of such tenements and
hereditaments, within the year ending on the preceding
fifth day of April, without making any of the deductions
which by the said act of the fifth and sixth years of her
Majesty, chapter thirty-five, are allowed to be made upon
assessments under schedule D, but deducting any sum
paid by such lessor during the year in respect of the
poor rate for such tenements or hereditaments." The
Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that the landowner
was to be assessed on the amount of the rest, and not
os
the amount actually received. The effect of the amend-
ment would be that a landowner would be charged on his
receipts of the previous year. The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer said the landowner might have an allowance if
he claimed within six months of the loss ; but in Ireland
rent was not payable till six months after it was due,
and if the term of six months in which to make the claim
were extended, the effect would be to make the land-
lord more rigorous in enforcing his rent, which would be
a great evil. The landlord was entitled to an allowance if
his tenant became a bankrupt or insolvent, or if he ab-
sconded. He did not think a tenant could legally become
a bankrupt. If he became-insolvent thou might be a diffi-
culty; and with regard to his absconding, the landowners
in Ireland experience the annoyance that their tenants
would not abscond. These were the grounds on which he
put forward his amendment. He had no personal interest
in the matter. His only wish was to exempt a Blass of
persons from a hardship which was not only great, but
gratuitous. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
this clause had originated in the disposition felt by him, in
common with many members of the house, to go as far as
possible towards meeting the demands of the Irish mem-
bers. (Hear, hear.) Ho did not hesitate to say that he
was surprised at many of the proposals made in the course
of the present debate • in fact, ho had rather felt an appre-
hension that the members connected with England would
complain at the large concessions made to the Irish mem-
bers. As to the objection to the poor-law valuation being
taken as a basis of calculation, he could only say that many
Irish members had requested that that valuation should be
the basis of proceeding.
Mr. CAIRNS—Not on this side of the house.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was sur-
prised that the hon. member did not act more in accordance
with order. These were provisions to which there was
nothing analogous to the case of England. Again, with re-
gard to that portion of the clauses relating to bankrupt and
insolvent tenants. It was said that that was an illusory
concession. With respect to Ireland every concession ap-
peared to be considered illusory by some gentlemen. (No,
no.) Well then, if this was no concession, no doubt the
hon. gentlemen who said so would show their sense of the
matter authentically by voting against it. He (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would say this ; he did not consider
the concession to be absolutely necessary. It was a, pro-
posal of his to meet the convenience of the Irish. He could
not come to consider the proposal of the hon. gentleman
opposite (Mr. Cairns), and he must say that he had never
seen a proposal open to more fundamental objections. It
went to introduce one of the most objectionable features
connected, with the tax—namely self assessment. When
the income tax was at first introduced there was nothing
but self-assessment, and then but half as much tax was
levied as there ought to have been. Now self-assessment
was got rid of in every case where possible ; in every case
in fact but under schedule D, The hon. gentleman pro-
posed that the principle should be extended to schedule A,
and extended in an exceptional and invidious manner. He
(Mr. Cairns) did not propose to extend the principle to
landlords at large, but to the owners of land in Ireland.
But, indeed, if he (Mr. Cairns) had proposed to extend the
principle to the owners of land, he could not have given
his assent to them. Again, as to the objection to the rent
being paid when six months in arrear, there was nothing
analogous to the Irish hanging gale in England. If, how-
ever, the clause should lead to the more punctual payment
of re'nt in Ireland, it would be a most important result.
It had been said that the house ought not to look to what
the Irish landlord was entitled, but to his actual receipts.
This would be giving a direct inducement to the postpone-
ment of the payment of the rent. Thus by the postpone-
ment of the payment of rent for a few days, the payment
of income tax may be cast over into another half-year. But
in fact the average yearly rent was received during the year.
It was the same with the tradesman ; he was charged with
income tax upon his presumed receipts, although of 1,0001.
standing to his credit in his books, he might never receive
a farthing. As to the last point of the proposition of the
hon. member opposite (Mr. Cairns) he did not quito under-
stand it ; indeed it seemed that there was some inad-
vertency in it. The landlord did not pay, in the first
place, the poor rates—they were deducted from the rent by
the tenants. (Hear, hear.) (Mr. Cairns said a few words
in explanation across the table.) However, he (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) did not rest his objection upon
this ground. It was upon the broad principle that a
vicious system was proposed in an exceptional way that he
opposed this amendment.
Sir A. BROOKE said that the right hon. gentleman
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) seemed to be very proud
of the concessions he had made to the Irish members. He
(Sir A. Brooke) could not see that these concessions were
so very great. He complained that in every case connected.
with Ireland, the Irish were sacrificed to mere party pur-
poses. The right hon. gentleman had been requested by
Irish members to make this concession ; he (Sir A. Brooke)
thought he knew who these members were. They were
those hon. gentlemen who wore known as the brigade or
some such name. (Laughter.)
Mr. F. SCULLY for one would give his vote to the Go-
vernment, as an independent member,- upon this question.
(Hear, hear.) He certainly thanked the right hon. gentle-
man (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) for the concession
which he had made, and if anything would make lifm
more thankful than otherwise, it was the opposition which
was offered by hon. members on the other side.
Mr. H. HERBERT was quite certain that the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer *as not so practically acquainted with
Irish as with English .affairs, and that detracted consider-
ably from the value of his argument upon this question.
(Hear, hear.) Rents in Ireland were not paid as in Eng-
land, half-yearly. They were paid as they could be got ;
infact, it was necessary to keep open an office for the pur-
pose of receiving rents. The cost of all this amounted to
fully. 5 per cent. Considering the altered state of Ireland,
he should therefore vote with the hon. member opposite
(Mr. Cairns.)
Mr. NAPIER complained that in dealing with Ireland
hon. Members looked rather to the collateral effects of the
law than its main provisions. The state of things in Ire-
land was exceptional, and shouldbe dealt with accordingly;
and he (Mr. Napier) thought that the provision proposed
by the hon. member on his left (Mr. Cairns) was the best
adapted to the end in view.
Mr. FORTESCUE had had great difficulty in making
up his mind upon this question, and he rejoiced that it in-
volved no consideration between landlord and tenant in
Ireland. He certainly thought the amendment of the hon.
member opposite (Mr. Cairns) was adapted to the circum-
stances of the case, and should vote accordingly.
Mr. MACARTNEY wished to know how the tax was to
be levied. In many instances Irish tenants never paid any
rent, and what was to be done in that case ? Was the tax
to be taken off the property ?
Sir D. NORREYS said that the real value of property
could only be jisclged from the rent actually received ; to
tax, therefore, upon the basis of an imaginary valuation
was a monstrous innistice.
Lord NAAS said that the English landlord only paid in-
come tax.upon his actual :receipts. He d
wanted t
reo see that
principle applied to Ireland, and he believe thewas no
valid objection to such being done. The operation of the
clause would be to revive all the evils that had existed
under the poor law, of parties being compelled to pay who
derived no benefit from the property.
Viscount PALMERSTON said the noble lord who had
spoken showed himself very imperfectly, acsplainted.
justwith tlha
he
detailsod s
po
af
da n
idnicno
mE no g
tlafxdo. nHI
yeohna dt
hs
ea irdetnt
IhmeyEerge--
ceived ; he was sorry to inform the noble lord that he was
entirely mistaken. (Hear, and laughter.) The course
was this—the tenant paid the landlord's income-tax
upon the rent which the tenant was bound to pay ; but it
hdietalrnst fTohlleowlantlgotrtdhemliagnhdtlooredtreitceaivseadnt(hi awthreennth.e(cHouealdr,,
and very often did not get it all. He paid upon what he
ought to receive, not upon his actual receipts. (Hear,
hear.) Moreover, if a tenant absconded, and went away
without paying the landlord's tax, the landlord must pay
it, though he never got the rent. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CAIRNS, in reply, denied that the alternative pro-
posed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was a fair one.
If they were to have the English tax, in the name of fair-
ness and honesty let them have it as it was levied in Eng-
land. (Hear, bear.) The English landlord paid no in-
eohpn taxee
of they
got his rent. (Hear, hear, and no.)
Irishta tllainoidtlgehrdii on the other hand, would have to payTthhee
llor
would be tolatnai,ght not get a farthing of rent. The
given
t: Exchequer said that greater advantage
ersatchheealuaniedDlor;dhs
uutnhdeereesnetheeadduel(ei
tAhatthtahnetroe
ApaLyLosnaimaortehacnasheiss;acatutarladpersomfitasn.
tradesmen under
reqmurir.e
jd.tße
was no analogy in the two wri
(Hear.)
neverr.
being at
aLtehsesedbiolul
tshtoeopdeetrhlealwanvcalliettrad.
wwn
ith
a low ono. (No, no.)
had the alternitawtia7wofelhl
', it was so, wan some local exceptions.
Rtioenc,owntohinchded
thual