The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-06 00:00:00

as has just been addressed to me. (Oh ! cheers, and
laughter.) Ido not think it creditable that, in an assem-
bly of English gentlemen—(oh, oh !)—such language
should be applied to me under such circumstances. (Oh,
and derisive cheers.) There are two points in relation to
what I before said upon which I wish to give an explana-
tion. One of them relates to a phrase which has been
dwelt upon and somewhat misunderstood. I observed,
that short as my experience of this house was—short as
my experience of public life was—l have seen certain
things done, and the phrase " under my own eyes" meant,
during the period I have been a member of this house.
(Laughter from the Ministerial side.) lam not going to
alter a syllable of what I said, although gentlemen at the
back of the teeasury bench may indulge in their la:!ghter.
I wish the committee tounderstandthat the phrase under
my own eyes," taken in connection with what immediately
preceded it, meant during the period I have been a mem-
ber of this house. (Hear, and laughter.) Yes ; itmeant
nothing else. The other point is this. The interpretation
r
put upon my words by my hon. friend the member fo
Meath has led to some discussion. Now, I was instancing
the conduct of Ministers. Walpole was a Minister,
Pelh
and
corrupted Parliament, as history tells us. am
was a Minister, and corrupted Parliament, as
history
tells us. I was instancing the corruption effected by
Ministers, and I came down to our own times, and the
shape I gave my statement was that it was my convic-
tion that, during the time I have been in Parliament,
the present Government did operate upon certain Irish
mbers. (Oh! laughter, cheers, and cries of " Name !")
What I wished to convey to the house was, that the same
kind of influence which was employed byWalpole and Pel-
am seemed to me to have been employed to influence the
votes of a certain small number of Irish members. (Cries
of "Oh !" " Name," and laughter.) The noble lord, who
is called I believe the leader of this house, has thought pro-
per to say theft I wanted to pass away from the subject
without offering any explanation. Now that is not the fact
I stated to the committee that if the chairman, as their
organ, called on me to name I would name. I paused for
a considerable time. I heard the clamours of the commit-
tee on both sides—" Name," and " Don't name "—and I
came to the conclusion—and so did my hon. friends near
me—that it was the wish of the committee that I should
not name. (Loud cries of " Name !" from the Ministerial
side, and "No, no !" from the Opposition.) lam not, as
several hon. gentlemen have said an old member of this
house—l am not very familiar with its forms, and I may
perhaps have got into a position of some difficulty; but one
position I cannot and will not get into, and that is, the po-
sition of unsaying anything I havesaid. (Hear.) When the
chairman had come to the conclusion that I was not in or-
der, there was a certain course which I considered proper
under the circumstances, but I afterwards heard a very in-
fluential member on this side - the leader of a large party
in this house—declare his opinion that that decision was
come to somewhat rashly, and that circumstance flatus-ZS
altered my views to some extent. If it be the will of the
committee that I should give any further explanation of
the facts that influenced me in forming and stating the
opinion I before expressed, lam ready to do so. (Hear.)
If, on the contrary, the committee require me to withdraw
this language, to explain it away, and to say that my state- 1
ment was not true, I have only one course to take, what-
ever the consequences may be. (Loud cries of " Name !"
" Chair, chair I") I am again called upon to name ;of
course, if a large number of gentlemen in this house wish
me to name—(" No, no !" " Chair !" " Name !")
Mr. BRIGHT—I think the committee will consider
there is a great difference between the explanation just
given by the hon. member and the impression he made
upon us by his original statement. The statement, I think,
now stands thus :—The hon. gentleman says he is of opi-
nion that the Government have taken measures, somewhat
analogous to those taken by former Governments, for the
purpose of influencing votes in this house. I should be
sorry to have to defend any Government against charges of
this nature—(laughter)—but the hon. gentleman from the
other side of the Channel ; and we all know that gentle-
men from that quarter—though it is in the west—are occa-
sionally apt to take what may be called an Oriental lati-
tude in language—that their mode of expressing themselves
comes, not unfrequently, under the head of the figurative.
(Laughter.) lam inclined to think the expressions com-
plained of may be fairly classed within that category. I
myself may have at times used expressions which the house
has not altogether approved of. (Laughter.) The chairman
has determined that the expressions so used by the hon.
gentleman were disorderly. lam satisfied the hon. gentle-
man would not wish to do anything that the committee con-
sider disorderly—that he would not willingly transgress the
rules of the house, or act counter to its customs. The hon.
gentleman says he is of opinion that certain practices have
been adopted by Ministers towards gentlemen sitting below
the gangway. Now, really, were I myself an Irish member
of this house' I should hardly think it worth while to have
so general an imputation as this taken down. (Laughter.)
The hon. gentleman, perhaps, sees in the course taken by
some other hon. gentleman something which he does not
quite comprehend, but then he has made a partial expla-
nation of what he meant to convey, and though I should,
certainly, have much preferred that the words complained
of had not been uttered, and though, in the broad sense in
which they were at first understood, I cannot conceive them
to be true, yet, after the statement which the hon. gentle-
man has made, I think we may as well let the matter drop.
After all, the hon. gentleman does not say that any of the
Irish members to whom he refers have succumbed to
temptation. He only speaks of their having been operated
on, and we all know that operations are not necessarily
successful. (Laughter.) We have heard, over and over
spin in this house, general imputations that Government—
ene Goverment not less than another—has employed temp-
tation and used certain means to swell their majorities, but
nobody has taken any serious notice of such general state-
ments.
Mr. J. BALL—I, for one, as an individual member,
am desirous to vindicate, not only my own personal honour,
but the honour, also, of those members with whom I am
in daily communication ; and if there is corruption going
on in this house I desire it may be manifested, that I may
disconnect myself from it, and from those who have been
guilty of it. (Hear, hear.) There is no double meaning
to the term—" corruption" is a plain word, and easy to be
understood. (Hear, hear.) I take the clear meaning of
the hon. member for New Ross to be, that certain Irish
members have been induced by pecuniary considerations.
(" No, no !") Are words such as the hon. member's to be
used in this house, and the house then to be told that
there is no meaning to be attached to them ? (Hear, hear.)
That certain Irish members have been induced by pecuniary
considerations to take a pa ticular course ? (Hoar, hear.)
If that allegation stands unretracted, I, for one, will not
consent to withdraw the motion. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—The hon. gentleman behind me is
quite right when he says that Governments have, in all
times, been exposed to the charge of using corrupt means,
and other charges of the like kind, and, no doubt, Govern-
ments, as well as individual members, should be indisposed
lightly to take offence at words escaping in the heat of
debate ; but it must be observed that the hon. gentleman
who rose to complain of the words in question is an Irish
member, and that the charge is, that Irish members have
been practised on by corrupt influences. (Hear, hear.)
Now, it appears to me that there are three ways in which
a member may use such words as those complained of ;
liktri& is one case which has been supposed by my noble
where, in the heat of debate, words, not well
founded, and unjust in themselves, may fall from a speaker,
and which, in a few moments afterwards, he may at once
retract and regret. This, it appears, is not 1 he.case of the
hon. member. (Hear, hear.) Another case is the per-
fectly justifiable one, where a member states that which
he believes to be true, and which he is prepared to make
the subject of inquiry, under a specific form of charge.
(Hear, hear.) Now, if I understand that this is the case of
the hon. member, I beg that his charges may be distinctly
made. (Cheers.) If he means thak he can substantiate any
specific charge of corrupt conduct on the part of the Go-
vernment towards any Irish member, and, as a matter of
consequence, on the part of any Irish member who has
been so corrupted, then let the charge be made, and lot it
be strictly inquired into. (Hear.) There is a third way
In which such a charge may be made, and that is, where a
member having emplbyed words affecting the honour and
integrity of another member of this house, has neither the
proof to bring forward to substantiate his charge, nor the
manliness to retract, and to acknowledge that he has been
in error. (Hear, hear.) Unless I hear that the hon. mem-
is ready, not only to name the gentlemen to whom he re-
fers, but to brine_ forward a specific charge, or charges,
against those mdEbers, and against the Government, which
can be made the subject of a substantive inquiry, I must
rest, with regard to his conduct, on the last conclusion I
have stated. (Cheers.)
The CHAIRMAN then put the question, that the
words complained of be taken down.
Agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN then put the question, that the
words so taken down be reported to the house.
Agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again.
The house having resumed,
Mr. BOUVERIE reported the words which had been
taken down.
The SPEAKER, having read the words from the chair,
said - Has the hon. member for New Ross anything to say,
in explanation of the Words I have now read, or any re-
tractation to offer ?
Mr. DUFFY—I would merely explain the object I had
in view. I desire to say lam not acquainted with the
forms of the house, and I do not know what is aimed at in
this proceeding. (Laughter.) If the Speaker will tell
me what is the course lam expected to take. (Great
laughter.)
The SPEAKER—It has been reported to the house that
an hon. member has used expressions which have been re-
ceived as offensive to a great number of members of the
house, and the committee has ordered his words to be
taken down. It then remained for me to make the hon.
member acquainted with the words which had been re-
ported to me as offensive, and to call on the hon. member
to explain or retract them. The hon. member having
made that explanation or retractation it will be for him
to withdraw, and the house will then consider what fur-
ther course they will pursue in the matter.
Mr. DUFFY—It will be in the recollection of the house
that the statement I made was this,—that though I had
been but a Short time in the house I had, I thought, ob-
served corruption practised to influence the votes of Irish
members of this house, of a character with that corruption
'Which had for similar purposes been practised by Ministers
wu'-44, names are familiar to the house. I have been called
on for an explanation. If the house thinks proper to give
"le a committee I will lay before that committee the facts
which irearni ced,
(Hear me to the conclusion I have arrived at.
expeei thati Ido not know that it is quite reasonable to
should this hurried manner, go into those
facts, but I bel'ateva that ha substantial grounds for
what I stated, nd
mittee you will all I can do is to offer before any com-
mind. (Hear, heaaiirirlit those facts that influenced my
The hon. gentleman having notice.
called on to do this without ;I,is not reasonable I should be
Lord J. RUSSELL immediately withdrawn,
tr,hoese.
hon.H ernsaeraidb,erlrise
only to say that the words used by the
con-
tain a general charge against the Gonvoetrabi:ent, and against
certain Irish members who have
member of the Government myself,
(In
eciFedth.inkAsiat
_becomes me to advise the house as to
itiencuerAse it ought
to pursue ; but I trust that some ex
eunbeT
well acquainted with the forms and precedentins
of house, will advise and make a motion upon the subjetC.
(Hear, ar.)
DISRAELI—I rise, Sir, to express the opinion of
hose who, I think, wish to give a fair, and, I trust, an
vprejudioed view of this question. Ido not think it
right to appoint a committee to inquire into so vague a
statement as that which has been made by the hon. mem-
ber for New Ross. (Hear, hear.) At the same time that
statement is of so substantial a nature that I do not think
we can treat it with contempt. I think that he ought to
.Sir,
gepsmoned to the house, and that you,
him .to' name the individuals upon whom he thinks the
these corrupt influences. I
Government have practised at o'
think it would 120 =gam* toeXIMV

meat,be called
m toon n
theernames into details,
of b 0
be
bb.members
s but ohe ought
to whom his remarks apply, and we shall then be in a
e t
position to take further steps. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WORTLEY.—I was in hopes, sir, that the hon.
member would have taken some course that would have
rendered further discussion unnecessary. I cannot, for
the life of me, understand, after the language which he
has held, and the explanation which he has attempted to
give, how he can reconcile the course which Fe has taken
to his own feelings. (Cheers.) But I think it would be
unwise and imprudent if we were hastily, and at a mo-
ment's notice, considering the present state of feeling of
the house, and the feeling which is within the breast of
the hon. member himself, to call upon him without reflec-
tion to substantiate or to retract charges of this grave na-
ture. (Hear.) If we refrain from this at present it will
be open for him at a fitting time, on a right opportunity,
and when the hon. member is in a fitting state of mind,
either to retract the expressions he has used, and to apolo-
gise to the house for the course he has taken, or, in a
manly, bold, and constitutional manner, himself move
for a committee of inquiry. (Hear, hear.) Ido not know
what course I can take under all these circumstances, ex-
cept I venture humbly to move that this debate be ad-
journed until to-morrow. (Hear, and cries of "No, no.")
Yes ; this will give us time to consult precedents, if there
be any, and it will also give an opportunity to the hon.
member to reflect upon what has passed, and to take ad-
vice with reference to it. I am quite sure there is no
desire:upon the part of the house to hurry that hon. mem-
ber into a course that may be destructive to him, and I,
for one, suggest that this debate be adjourned. (Hear,
hear, and cries of "Move !") [After a pause and consulta-
tion with friends near him, the hon. member said :—] My
motion, then, would be, " That the language of the hon.
member be taken into consideration at four o'clock to-
morrow." (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MOORE.—If the disposition of the house be to deal
justly and generously with the hon. member, whether he
substantiates or retracts, it evidently can be only fair that
time should be allowed him to weigh and consider the
whole matter.
Mr. KIRK as one of the Irish members resting under
this ban, I feel that, under the peculiar circumstances and
at the peculiar hour at which this debate is going on, it
would be very unpleasant and " uncomfortable" (a laugh)
that it should be adjourned. The whole of the debate will
be printed in the newspapers to-morrow, and by Sunday it
will be circulated in the most remote corners of Ireland.
We, therefore, shall have 13b remain under the imputation
of oorruption for an entire week; and I think the only cor-
rect course would be to act upon the recommendation of
the hon. member for Buckinghamshire.
Colonel CAULFIELD—Sir, whether the words were
disorderly or not, or whether they were said in the heat of
the debate, at all events they augur a manifest intentionto
offend. That the expressions were " offensive," I can say
for myself. That many hon. members consider them " in-
suiting," I also know. I would, therefore, beg to oppose
the adjournment of the debate, and very cordially to agree
with the expression of the hon. member for Buckingham-
shire, that you should call the hon. member for New Ross
to his place, and, if he should then refuse an explanation,
that we should act accordingly.
Mr. BRIGHT—The hon. member for Buteshire appears
to me to have suggested a course which the house ought to
follow ; and, considering the position which he holds, his
advice upon a question of this nature is particularly valu-
able. The hon. member for New Ross is charged to have
used words offensive and, as the hon. member who has just
sat down says, " insulting" to the house. Acting upon
the feelings which prompted the hon. gentleman to the
course he has taken, I think it would hardly be fair for the
house to compel him to come in and to arrive at a conclu-
sion upon this subject. We also should only be guilty of
conduct equally unjustifiable and hasty with that of the
hon. member, if we were, after 12 o'clock at night, to pro-
ceed to adjudicate upon what occurred but a few minutes
before. (Hear, hear.) Ido not think that we should bo
doing justice either to the hon. member or to our own cha-
racter if we did not take the course which has been pointed
out by the hon. member for Buteshire. I believe that
the hon. member was under a delusion with regard to
what he said ; but, that being so, I think we should be
taking a course beneath our dignity if we refused to give
him time for an explanation. (Hear, hear.) After the
hon. member for New Ross has slept upon this matter—
(laughter)—he may perhaps come down and make a full ex-
planation which will be satisfactory. Ido hope that the
house will agree to the motion for the adjourment of the
debate.
Mr. V. SCULLY—I would object to any motion which
would tako any hon. member by surprise. I regret very
much that any hon. member should have placed him-
self in this position, and should have refused to accept the
advice which was tendered by the noble lord the member
for London. As an Irish member myself—as one who
voted with the Government upon the income tax division
upon conviction—(laughter)—I think that on this occasion
we were not taking the hon. member by surprise, and that
the sooner this charge is brought to an issue the better.
(Hear, hear.) No member has a right to assert anything
like a libel upon his brother members without being
able to substantiate it, and, notwithstanding the advice
of the hon. member for Manchester, I do hope that
an independent conclusion will be arrived at. I beg to
call to the minds of hon. members what occurred. I
had spoken on the question of the consolidated annuities,
and I had stated that there were certain gentlemen who
took a different view of that question from me, who were
not interested in the land of Ireland. The hon. member
for New Ross, in noticing this point of my speech, turned
to me and, addressing me personally, stated that, if there
were members on his side of the house who had no interest
in the consolidated annuities, neither had they any interest
in Downing-street. Following that up, the hon. member
stated that there were some few Irish members on this (the
ministerial) side of the house who had given conscientious
votes the other evening, when some of my friends called
out " Some few, indeed !" but no explanation was
given. Following up the same point still, and look-
ing at us hero pointedly, he used the expression
which has been referred to, and which every one of
us understood as an extremely gross insult—(hear, hear)
—and I, for one, certainly could not but feel veryin-
dignant at it. We called out " Name ! name !" and the
hon. member said over and over again, " I am perfectly
ready to name." I confess I wish the hon. member could
come in and either adopt the construction which the hon.
member for Meath has put upon his words, and state that
he meant nothing insulting to us, or that he would adopt
the alternative suggested by the right hon. gentleman
the member for Buckinghamshire—that is to say, that if he
will not retract or explain the expressions he has used, he
should do what he has said he was prepared to do—name
the gentlemen to whom he alluded ; and then, if any hon.
gentleman thinks it necessary, let him move the adjourn-
ment. (Hear.)
Mr. CONOLLY rose amid loud cries of "Oh !" He
said—l am happy to say that I was not in the house when
some disgraceful scene—as I collect from what has fallen
from hon. members—must have occurred ; but I beg to
submit to you, sir, and to the house, that the course indi-
cated by the right hon. gentleman the Recorder of London
is, under all the circumstances, that which seems to me the
best. (Cries of " Divide !") In saying this, lam not in-
fluenced by any feelings on either side. If an offensive ex-
expression has been used, time should be given to the hon.
member who used it to reflect maturely upon the expres-
sion, and to come in a rational state of mind either to
apologise for and retract, or to substantiate it, like a man
of honour. (Hear, and laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—I stated to the house before, that I
(lid not think it would be becoming in me to point out
what course it ought to pursue. Since then two courses
have been suggested—one by the right hon. gentleman the
member for Buckinghamshire, and the other by the right
hon. gentleman the Recorder of the city of London. The
right hon. gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire
suggests that if the hon. member for New Ross will state
certain names a committee should then be appointed for
the purpose of investigating the charges against the per-
sons so named. Now I confess that Ido not think that

there is a course which it would be proper for us to pur-
sue. (Hear, hear.) It seems to me that it would be a
most unbecoming course for us to expose hon. members,
, without any apparent reason or cause, to imputations
which are not specified. (Hear, hear,) In cases of this
kind there ought, I think, to be some sort of charges
affixed to persons who are supposed to be guilty, and that
merely appointing a committee to ioquire into the con-
duct of members would be a very unjust and unbecoming
course for us to adopt. (Hear, hear.) The proposal of
the right hon. gentleman the Recorder of London, that the
debate should be adjourned till we meet again, will give
time to the hon. member for New Ross, and to the mem-
bers of this house, to consider what course they ought to
pursue. I certainly have often found that cases which
were exceedingly difficult have, by adjournment, been
easily brought to a conclusion, and therefore I am pre-
pared to support the motion of the right. hon. gentleman
the Recorder of London. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. BALL.—As I have been personally alluded to by
some hon. members, I beg to say that I should be the last
to wish to put the lon. member for New Ross in a position
where he might be tempted to utter things which it would
be difficult to retract. At the same time, with reference
to the suggestion of the hon. member for Cork, that the
hon. member should either at present or to-morrow adopt
the construction which had been put upon his words by
the hon. member for Meath, I have to say that that would
neither be creditable to himself or the house ; and, there-
fore in expressing my concurrence in the views of hon.
members who have suggested an adjournment of the debate
I do so in the hope that the house at its re-assembling will
see that the charge which has been made is met in a proper
way—in a way, I mean, in which such a serious charge
should be met. (Hear, hear.) I beg to say, at the same
time, that I did not understand that the hon. member
looked at me when he made the charge. It never entered
my head that he did ; and, if it had, I do not say that I
should have been so forward to move in the matter. But
the hon. member having cast—l will not say a slur—but
one of the heaviest imputations possible on a large body of
hon. members who sat behind me, I cannot think but that
it was due to them, as well as to myself, to take the course
I did. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Serjeant SHEE—I am not in the position of the hon.
member for Donegal (Mr. Conolly), for I have heard the
whole of this unpleasant discussion, and I must acknowledge
that lam rot at all surprised that hon. friends say col-'
leagues in the Irish representation, should have taken offence
at the words which were used by hon. member for New
Ross. At the same time I confess I did not understand
them, nor I think any reflecting person can understand
them, in the offensive sense which has been put upon them
in the heat of this evening's debate. (Cries of " Oh!" and
" Hear, hear.") Is there a single man in thelouse who
believes that the hon. member for New Ross meant to say
that in his presence, and under his own eyes, anything like
pecuniary corruption had taken place ? (Cries of "Oh !")
My hon. friend the member for Tavistock may have so un-
derstood it—(hear)—but I am sure that any man at all
acquainted with the Irish representation—(laughter)—or
with my hon. friends opposite, knows perfectly well, and
they know themselves, every one, that nothing of the kind
was intended. (Hear, hear.) But that does not conclude
the question, I admit, because there may be corruption in
other ways than by pecuniary bribes—(hear, hear)—and if
any one of us, at our elections, had been proved to have
given an office, or to have used our influence in obtaining
one, it would have been corruption in the ordinary sense
of the. word—(hear, hear)—and I cannot help thinking that
if hon. members will for a moment get rid of that feeling
of irritation naturally excited by such words as my hon.
friend used, they may find, and must find, a meaning for
what he said which does not impute personal dishonour to
any member of this house—(cries of "Oh, oh !" and laugh-
ter)—and which does not impute anything to which right
hon. gentlemen on the Treasury bench ought or can when
the thing is'properly understood—(The rest of the sentence
was lost in the laughter of the house.) I must ask the
which
itcoh ptehromhiot en. mteomcballer tfhoreirNeawtteßontisosnett:ndsth,e
and
dittire
for the languageli
but a short t inapearrieliseuar
together in poutiroicalniZelieeg
feelings that may actuate him, and which will account
as he believed, by Yevaeryeffisulrhai
(Hear, hear.) He has been
house one of a leieottrh,ea;t hceouicadmobinindt o
men
or 70 strong—(hear, hear)—pledged,
ittvieorramesintg.ennolity ear, hear)—to oppose every
znausblaDo let me submit to the
VA it is sot right top 1