The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-09 00:00:00

confide to the Government, that discretion may be limited
at any stage in the progress of the bill that will be founded
upon the resolutions. Perhaps it would be objectionable
to introduce new powers to the Government in the progress
of the bill ; but a limitation of their powers could not be
objectionable at any of its stages. There is likewise another
subject, which, though isolated, I may refer to here. It is
one of great importance. It is the subject of the large
amount of stock now hold by the Accountant-General in
Chancery and the Accountant-General in Bankruptcy. I
no not purpose by these resolutions that the Accountant-
General in Chancery or the Accountant-General in Bank-
ruptcy shall have the power of exercising the option of com-
mutation excepting as to the limited amount of minor
stock which we are going to redeem. As to the great stocks
it is not proposed to give them the power of exercising the
option. The main reason for this I will state. There is
great reason to suppose—l will not say it is an absolute
conclusion on the part of her Majesty's Government—but
there is a great reason to suppose that more extensive
changes may be introduced into the law with regard to the
large amount of money in their hands. The system at pre-
sent appears to be of a most defective character. No doubt,
as far as regards the good faith upon which that large pro-
perty is held, it is unassailable; but in its nature it is fluc-
tuating capital with a fixed interest. Now, the interest of
the trust funds which are in Chancery is of comparatively
inferior consideration; but the integrity of the capital is a
matter of very great importance. It is extremely hard that
the property of parties who arc debarred by legal difficulties
from its enjoyment should be subject to changes—great and
vital changes perhaps—from circumstances entirely inde-
pendent of their wills ; and I have great hope that it may
be in the power of Government, but I cannot venture to
commit them to the subject, to produce a measure that will
place the great amount of these trust funds upon a basis
more satisfactory to the persons on whose behoof and for
whose ultimate benefit it is held. For these reasons Ido
not propose to give the power of commutation of the great
stocks now held by these two officers, the Accountant-
General of the Court of Chancery and the Accountant-
General of the Court of Bankruptcy. I have now only just
to mention what are the alterations that have been intro-
duced into the resolutions—
Mr. RU2lE—Tell us what will be the saving under your
plan ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—MY hon.
friend the member for Montrose has just asked me a
mostth ei n lapmo rot au
amount oqfu etshtei o nan.
uHa
le
stsi
nags e d
Lmaeu
gwhhat wi
ll
be er.
do not know what the precise saving will be. I have not
ventured to put this plan to the house as a schemeinvolvi
involv-
ing a saving ; but if it succeeds the amount of saving will
be It cannot be but that there must be some
n
oa amount
tohuen
mof o
us anvn t
seeing g . I
thatwould i t rather
notnot
dependm a make
upon
c aua l cci c tui
mo
stances that we can control, and which are beyond our
knowledge. If you take 30,000,0001. of Exchequer bonds
and put them out at 2i per cent., the saving upon them,
as compared with a 3 per cent. stock, would be for the first
ten years 175,0001., and after the first ten years 150,0001
That would be the amount upon these bonds ' • but I by no
means limit myself to that. What I wish to secure upon
that framework is, that when Government shall come back
to Parliament and render an account of the success of this
operation, it shall be in your power to say whether it shall
be extended or not. Now the changes in Ithe resolutions
are these. The third resolution, as it stands now, is a new
resolution, but the objeot of it is not to make any substan-
tial change. It is only to make sure that the resolution
shall convey to Parliament the powers I have endeavoured
to describe in the course of my explanations, and with re-
gard to which a doubt had been raised whether the
language of the second resolution, if it stood alone, was
sufficient to convey those powers. The eighth resolution,
again, is a new resolution, but this resolution I believe I
may say is, in the strictest sense, merely a formal resolu-
tion. It is likewise to prevent legal doubts, and it implies
no substantial alteration whatever. The most important
change in the resolution is that which the right honourable
gentleman opposite with great rapidity discovered. It is
contained in the 10th resolution. The committee will see
that the effect of it is simply this that it limits the com-
mutation which may be made of the Consolidated Three
per Cent. Annuities—that is of the great stocks—into two-
and-a-half per cent. stock to the sum of 30,000,0001. as a
maximum. It leaves it entirely free to go on with the
Three-and-a-Half per Cents. I wish the committee to un-
derstand that. So far as concerns the Government Ido
not know any objection to limit the creation of the Three-
and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, but there is no danger attend-
ing its creation. There is no fear of too much ;it is only
of too little. We do not therefore propose to attach any
limit upon that ; but we do propose to fix this limit upon
the possible creation of the Two-and-a-Half per Cent.
Stock in the resolutions. This is the only change affecting
the general structure of the plan that has been made in the
second edition of the resolutions ; and there is no other
change whatever of any important character. The com-
mittee will now be in .a condition to judge whether the
change is of that character that would make it desirable
for them to take further time for its consideration, or
whether they would choose to proceed at the present mo-
ment. I, for my part, have discharged the duty which
was incumbent upon me. In conclusion, I have only to
thank the committee for the great attention and patience
with which they have'listened to me, and to add that I
shall be most happy, if I have failed in any point to make
clear the intentions of the Government, to answer any
questions which any honourable member may wish to put
to me, (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman then resumed
his seat.

On the first resolution being read,
Mr. lIUME said the plan which the right hon. gentle-
man had just introduced as au experiment should be tried.
As it first appeared upon the original resolutions ho was
afraid it would have proved a failure ; but as it had now
been explained, and explained with so much clearness and
ability that no hon. member could fail to comprehend it,
he believed it would succeed. (Hear, hear.) There was
a large class of persons holding property in the funds who
disliked the trouble of the present system of transferring
stock, and who did not like to pay brokerage. To these
the change explained by the right hon. gentleman would
be very acceptable, whilst the plan generally would prove
a public convenience. He suggested that it might be de-
sirable to devise some method whereby the)dividends could
be paid in the large provincial towns. The change might
affect the interests of London bankers and agents, but it
would be an immense facility and give great satisfaction to
the community at large. It was only right that the stock
exchanges of towns like Birmingham, Manchester, Liver-
pool and Glasgow, and other places, now that communica-
tion was so easy and rapid, by means of the electric tele-
graph, should be placed upon the same footing as that of
London.

Mr. WILLIAMS said the plan involved an increase of
3,000,0001. to the amount of the national debt ; and to this
he objected on principle. This system had been the bane
of the financial policy of this country. From the year
1775, the commencement of the American war, down to
the year 1816, the termination of the continental war,
there had been an addition to the principal of the national
debt of no less than 589,000,0001. But how much of that
amount had been received? Why, only 417,000,0001.
Thus, by abandoning the sound principle of having 1001.
sterling for 100/. Consols, the nation had been saddled with
171,000,0001. of debt more than it ought to be, Again,
when the right hon. baronet the President of the Board of
Control (Sir Charles Wood), as Chancellor of the ExChe-
pier, raised the loan of 8,000,0001. for the relief of the
people of Ireland, a large amount was added in the same
manner to the national debt. Such additions amounted to
a declaration that we never intended to pay it. In his
opinion the right hon. gentleman had commenced dealing
with the debt too soon. If he had delayed any scheme for
reducing the interest for twelve months from this period,
the operation would probably then have been attended
with advantage.
Mr. HENLEY had no great objection to that part of the
scheme which proposed to deal with the South Sea Stocks,
nor to the proposal for creating a new species of pub-
lic security, called Exchequer bonds; but he did not
see any great public advantage in creating new stock
markets in different parts of the country. He
could not conceive how any great difference of prices
could exist between London and any other town, when by
means of the electric telegraph to which the hon. member
for Montrose had referred, the prices on the London Stock
Exchange were conveyed in five minutes from one part of 1
the kingdom to the other. That shut out the notion com-
pletely of any difference of prices in different parts of the
country. (Hear. hear.) With respect to the Exchequer
bonds he agreed perfectly with the right hon. the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer, that securities ofthat nature passing
from hand to hand the same as Exchequer bills, would be
a considerable convenience to the public, (Hear, hear.)
But the right hon. gentleman had not informed the com-
mittee, nor did the resolutions inform them, in what amount
these bills were to be issued.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The amount
stated is 30,000,0001.

Mr. HENLEY : The right hon. gentleman did not say
whether they were to bel,ooo/. bonds, or 5,000/. bonds or in
in what amounts they would be issued.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The bonds
will be 100/. and upwards.
Mr. HENLEY : If the bonds were issued in 1001. and
upwards, that would very much increase the convenience
which he admitted such securities would afford to the pub-
lic. (Hear, hear.) One part of the scheme struck him as
requiring some consideration. Although the right hon.
gentleman took the limit of 30,000,000/. he evidently con-
templated, if this operation should be successful, to con-
tinue to issue, at some part of the present year or of a sub-
sequent year, these securities. It was not usual to entrust
the Government with the power of acting on the Money
Market by means of issuing securities of this nature to a
certain degree without the control of Parliament. It was
said that the issue could not exceed a certain amount ; but
to give the minister of the day the power to act on the
market to the extent of 30,000,000/. without control, was
not a course of proceeding which Parliament was in the
habit of taking, and he should bo sorry to give an opinion
on the matter off hand. He was the last to suppose that
any Minister would make an improper use of powers en-
trusted to him, but the great point was, not only to know
that he would not do it, but to relieve him from the pos-
sibility of being suspected of doing it. This was only to
be the beginning of important changes, and therefore it was
a very strong reason why the committee should not be
asked to agree to the resolutions without having had time
to examine them. Another valid reason for some delay,
was the fact that these resolutions had assumed a very dif-
ferent shape from that in which they were first presented.
The right honourable gentlemen had admitted the inconve-
nience of adding to the capital of the national debt. The
right honourable gentleman had spoken in language much
mere forcible than he could use of the great wrong of so
doing. That conviction seemed to have sprung up within
the last twenty-four or forty-eight hours, because unques-
tiorably these formal resolutions did not indicate anything
which would lead a human being to suppose that the right
honourable gentleman had any such indisposition to add to
the capital of the national debt. He now said it would be
an abomination to increase it to the extent of 50 millions, but
be had not the least objection to increase it by 3 millions,
that he might have the pleasure of founding a Two-and-a-
Half per Cent. Stock. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentle-
maeti
iossna
bi,,clll;
tb
tlliltaetdtl
emmoient
haveei t_wmoul
onlyalle
ilgbhteht
this little
aggravatedintitil
mil a
great national feat." Hear, hteehmaernr Hslheoalfslh3omu haveli dl li oi
kn per-
formedlike
—i
Softoccrke,a
to know what was
Two
-and
-dHaalLpietrteCdeuntO be objeitcfitniigotnteahobelillseed?3o°ln millions
thelblieorini right
hno done
yearhon hgeenteloeumliaing
owaons nwoitthsantds• i;,evuough to think that next
-and-llalf per Cent.
was the usa of
Stock without adding to the debt, what
,elileoluc.gnhutl
making a beginning ? And if he wasw sanguine
believe that next year or the year afterrar
create a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock withoutB
shilling to the capital of the debt, then he was ma(stinngg a
very bad bargain to offer ti commute on any other ter a
ms.
(Hear hear.) There was another point, though only s.
a
slight one—upon what plea of justice was it proposed to
• shut out from this commutation trustees having funds
I invested by order of the Court of Chancery ? He thought,
generally speaking, all parties should be allowed to take
advantage of this scheme, if they so chose, within a
limited period, He doubted the justice of shutting out