The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-06 00:00:00

MR. DUFFY AND THE IRISH MEMBERS.

The order of the day for the consideration of the ex-
ception taken to the words uttered last night by Mr.
Duffy in the course of his speech having been read,
The SPEAKER asked if the honourable member
for New Ross was in his place.
Mr. DUFFY said—l am here, Sir. .

Mr. SPEAKER—It is my duty to remind the hon.
gentleman of the proceedings which took place last
night. The house was informed by a report of the
Committee of Ways and Means, that exception
had been taken to certain words used by the
honourable member for New Ross, which were :
" Greater corruption than was ever practised in the days
of the Walpoles and the Pelhams has been practised,
under my own eyes, upon Irish members of this house ?"
If the hon. member has any explanation to make now
in the house, it is hardly necessary for me tell the hon.
member that there is always a willingness on the part
of this house to extend its indulgence to any hon. mem-
ber who, in the heat of debate, has made use of words
calculated to offend hon. members in the house, and I
trust the hon. member will now be prepared with such
an explanation or apology as may be satisfactory to the
house.

Mr. DUFFY—I wish, in the first place, to set myself
right before proceeding to the explanation which I have
to make. I desire to recal to the recollection of the
house exactly what happened last night. When I was
interrupted it was not by a call to order, but by a chal-
lenge to prove certain statements which I had made. If
I had been called to order I should have felt bound at
once to have set myself right with the committee in
any manner which might have been deemed sufficient,
but In answer to the challenge which was given to me
to prove my words, I felt then, and I feel still, that
it wculd have been a course utterly irreconcileable with
my conscience, simply to withdraw a statement on its
truth being questioned. After some debate Mr. Bou-
verie at length declared me to be:out of order, and I was
they about to rise immediately to take tlw course which
seemed to me necessary under the circumstances, and to
say that I was quite aware that the rules of debate in
this assembly, as well as of every other assembly,
ought not to be yiolated, and that al had violated thew

I was extremely sorry. (Hear.) I was about to take
that course when the right hon. gentleman the member
for Bucks interposed, and stated that a charge of corrupt
practices against the Ministry was not a breach of order,
but, on the contrary, the privilege, nay, even the duty,
of any hon. member of this house. (Hear, hear.) I
did not feel then that I was bound at once, with-
out , waiting for some further debate, to take the
course which I had before meditated ; and after
that the possibility of withdrawing the words
was taken away from me by the noble lord the member
for the city of London. That noble lord stated that I
had endeavoured, after making the charge contained in
my words, to fly away from it, and avoid naming the
parties. Now the very reverse was the fact. (Cheers.)
I appeal to both sides of the house whether I (lid not
wait for several minutes—a long time under such cir-
cumstances—and I declared that if the committee, by the
chairman, decided that I should 'do so, I would at once
proceed to name the persons without avoiding the re-
sponsibility of proving the allegation which I had made.
The noble lord went on further to say that I could not
prove a syllable of what I had stated. Now, I appeal
to the house if, after such a statement, I could withdraw
my words, leaving the matter in that position. (Hear,
hear.) Would any hon. member of the house, after it
had been stated by a minister of the Crown that he
had made an allegation which he could not prove,
consent to terminate the debate by simply withdrawing
the words which he had uttered. (Cheers.) It seems to
me scarcely possible to take that course. (Hear.) After
that I withdrew by the direction of the chairman, and I
am informed that certain circumstances then took place
with respect to me. I also wish to offer some explana-
tion. I have been told by them that it 'was imputed to
me that I had intended to convey that money was given
to secure the votes of Irish members. Now, I distinctly
wish the house to understand that I did not mean to
convey any such thing. Now, what I wish to convey
is this—that the political profligacy which prevailed in
the times of Walpole and the Duke of Newcastle, when
men were induced to abandon the most solemn and cir-
cumstantial pledges, and to leave behind their reputation
and political character for the purpose of accepting office,
—that that conduct seemed to me to have been exceeded
by circumstances which had fallen under my own notice
since I had been a member of this house. (Loud cheers.)
I meant to charge that certain Irish members had, in
point of fact, outrun anything which I had ever heard or
read of in discreditable abandonment of their notorious
and rooted principles, for the purpose of what I
could only interprets as their own personal advantage
and advancement. If I knew what political corruption
means that is political corruption—and I repeat now
what I have said before—that if it be the wish of
this house I am ready to specify the individdais, and to
state what appear to :me to be cogent facts in sustain-
ment of this allegation . These being my opinions, of
course it is impossible for me to retract what I have
said. I wish the house to understand that if in
stating them here:—for I have often stated them else-
where—l have violated any rule of the house, it
was entirely outside my intention, and of course I regret
if I have offended against the proper manner of con-
ducting debate in this house, which seems to me, on
the authority of the right hon. gentleman the member
for Buckinghamshire, somewhat doubtful ; but if I have
offended, of course I regret it. (Loud cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—The honourable member has
said that I interrupted him last night in a manner
which prevented him iwithdrawing his charge.
Mr. DUFFY—What I said was, that after the state-
ment of the noble lord that I had made a charge of
which I could not :prove the truth, it seemed to me
that a man of honour could not terminate the business
by simply withdrawin g the charge.
Lord J. RUSSE LL—I was about to say that the
hon. member stated_ in this house that corruption had
been practised on Irish members by the present Govern-
ment in a manner t hat exceeded the corruption of Wal-
pole and Pelham ; rind, the debate having gone on for
some time, both as to the character of the words and
the course to be taken with respect to them, I think I
could have taken no other course than to have given a
complete denial on the part of the Government. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. gentleman made a general statement,
and I made a general denial. I certainly understood the
charge in a different-manner to that in which it is now
stated to me. Ev erybody who has read history knew
that the corruption of Walpole and Pelham was of this
kind—that when (here was a question which was likely
to-be closely press, sd in the house, that either by gift of
place or gift of money a majority was secured in favour
of the Government. (Hear.) It now appears that the
charge of the hon. member is of a very different descrip-
tion. (No, no.) Well, then, does the hon. member
mean to say that money has been given to the Irish
members? (Mr. Duffy—"No, no.") Then it is of a
different description.. What I understand the hon.
gentleman to say is: that there have been members in this
house who, having given certain pledges and expressed
certain opinions in Ireland before bodies of the Irish peo-
ple, have accepted oillce, forfeited those pledges, and
gone contrary to tho:;e opinions. I do know whether
there is any accusation of corruption in the times of
Walpole which at ail answers that description. Because
there were not thou questions under discussion upon
which declarations of this kind could be made. What
the hon, member now states is that, hon. members,
flying from pledges And not acting in accordance with
the opinions they ha ve declared, have either accepted
office or ranged -themselves on the side of the
Government. I doubt very much whether that is an ac-
cusation which could at all be declared disorderly con-
duct. It appears to. :me to be a matter of argument for
the house in any debate, whether those who have either
accepted office, or, without accepting office, have sup-
ported the present Gel iernment, have acted from corrupt
motives. I think the Irish members have ample means
of defending themselv es, and my belief is that, instead
of actingr, from any cos rupt motives, they have acted in
a way highly honourable to themselves. (Laughter
and cheers.) That is a matter of opinion, and a sub-
ject, for discussion, an d I do not think Ir ish member
have any reason to fea r any amount of lengthy debate
on the subject. It appears there have been stasements
_ _

in Ireland; that members for Ireland from corrupt mo-
tives, have taken up ti ►e cause of the Government, have
acted with them, and -voted for them, and it had even
been alleged that they have received sums of money for
so doing. It appears that gross accusation is now aban-
doned, and I think it is always better, in such cases, to
allow the matter to d rop, without taking any fuither
proceedings. (Cheers.)
Mr. J. BALL wished to say a few words, but
The SPEAKER cal led the hon. gentleman to order,
as there was no motioz i before the house.

Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the house do pass to
the orders of the day.
Mr. BALL then proceeded to remark that the state-
ment which the hon. member for New Ross made last
night referred to transactions which occurred four
months ago.

Mr. G.DUFFY said the hon. gentleman was mis-
taken. His statement, did not refer to anything of the
sort.

Mr. J. BALL said -that he had nothing further to say,
but the hon. gentleman, against whom he had no per-
sonal animosity whatever, had stated in another capacity
than a member of Parliament, that Irish members, in
supporting the present Government, had violated a
pledge which they made four years ago. It appeared,
however, that what the hon. member said last night was
not an echo of this statement, and he had therefore no-
thing more to say in, this unpleasant matter.
The SPEAKER -then put the question that the house
pass to the order of the day, which was agreed to amidst
much laughter.
WAYS AND MEANS.—INCOME TAX.

The house shortly afterwards went into committee of
ways and means, when.
The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouverie) put the question
which was debated last night, namely, that the words
proposed to be left out of the resolution which included
Ireland in the operation of the income tax stand part of
the question.
Mr. F. FRENCH rose to order. The hon. member
for New Ross was in possession of the chair when this
debate was interrupted last night, and
The CHAIRMAN said the question having been put,
the hon. and learned member was out of order in
speaking.
Lord J. RUSSELL requested sotto voce to speak sit-
ting, and with his hat on.
Mr. F. FRENCH, adopting the noble lord's advice,
proceeded to say it was neither fair nor proper to put
the question in this abrupt manner. The hon. member
for New Ross was in possession of the chair when the
debate was interrupted, and he had therefore a right
to complete the speech which he commenced last night.
Mr. GOULBOURN, speaking with his hat on, and
sitting, was understood to agree with the honourable
gentleman who last addressed the committee ; but before
he could say five words, strangers were ordered to with- ,
draw, and the matter of order was discussed with closed

doors.
The committee divided during this period, when the
numbers were—
For the amendment 6l
Against it 286

Majority
The resolution was accordingly carried.
Mr. MOORE moved that the chairman do report pro-
gress, and ask leave to sit again in order that the point
of order might be discussed with the Speaker in the
chair.
Mr. LABOUCHERE concurred with the motion,
and said it was most desirable that the point of order
should be decided by the house, and not the committee.
Lord J. RUSSELL also concurred in the motion
under the circumstances stated.
And the question, that the Chairman report progress,
was put and carried.
The house having resumed, the Chairman reported
progress and obtained leave to sit again.
Lord J. RUSSELL then stated what had occurred
about the point of order, and added that, as the hon.
member for Mayo had been instrumental in raising the
point of order perhaps he would be good enough to
continue the discussion.
Mr. MOORE then proceeded to explan to the Speaker
the position in which the matter'stood. When the debate
was interrupted last night the bon. member for New
Ross was in possession of the chair, but the Chairman
of the committee tonight, instead of calling the hon.
member for New Ross to resume the debate,
proceeded in a hurried manner to put the ques-
tion, which was clearly a violation of his duty.
(Hear, hear.
Mr. BOUVERIE said he had committed the mistake,
if mistake it was, unintentionally ; but the house should
remember that he hesitated some time before he put the
question, with tho view of seeing if any one wished to
speak. The hon. member for Droitwich, seeing his
hesitation, rose and asked him what the question was,
and before he put it he gave him a distinct answer.
However, he had no intention to take any one by sur-
prise.

Sir J. PAKINGTON said this dispute only showed
the necessity for order being called and obtained before
any question was put.
The SPEAKER said there was a difference between
the practice of the house and that of its committee. In
the house a member could only speak once, but in com-
mittee members could speak as often as they pleased.
It was therefore difficult to determine this point, but the
house would remember that when a member moved the
adjournment of a debate in the house, it certainly gave
him the privilege of opening the debate on the
following day, it yet did not follow that the Speaker
was bound to call upon him, unless he rose to address
the house. Nor it did not appear that the hon. member
for New Ross rose when the question was just in com-
mittee ; and therefore, according to analogy, the Chair-
man was not out of order in putting the question to the
vote.

Lord J. RUSSELL then moved that the Speaker do
leave the chain.
Colonel SIBTHORP said there had been so much
confusion that he was really at a loss to understand what
had occurred, but he could undertake to say that
although he was opposed to the income tax in any
shape, he yet thought, after the conduct of her repre-
sentatives, Ireland ought' to be called upon to pay
double the income tax. (A. laugh.)
After a scene of much confusion, durinc, which several
motions of adjournment were made, the Speaker left
the chair, and the house again went into committee,
Mr. MORGAN then proceeded to address the com-
mittee, and, was

[LEFT SPEAKING.]

SHIPWRECKED FISHERMEN AND MARINER'S
BENEVOLENT SOCIETY.-(THIS DAX.)

The annual general meeting of the friends and sup-
porters of this society was held this afternoon at Willis's
Rooms, King-street, St. James's. The chair was occu-
pied by the Earl of Talbot.

- The Noble CHAIRMAN said the first business of the day
would be to hear the report of the transactions of the
society for the past year, which was not so favourable as
it ought to be from the humane and benevolent objects
of such a society as this; From that document it
appeared that from the terrific gales which have been so
unusually frequent and disastrous since August last,
increased exertion is highly necessary. The society's
operation embrace every port of the coast of the United
Kingdom, affording, by means of five hundred honorary
agents, succour in the hour of distress to every ship-
wrecked person cast upon the coast—clothing them if
naked, and sending them to their towns, if natives, and,
if foreigners, to their nearest consuls. Since August,
1852, 4,276 persons suffering from shipwreck have been
relieved at a cost of 5,3311.—this large number being
made of 438 widows and aged parents (dependent),
700 orphans, 721 fishermen, and 2,417 mariners.
The number of mariners subscribing was 36,000, and the
amount received in subscriptions (independent of the
subscriptions of members) from all parts of the country
amounted to 3,1001. In consequence of the sum being
so small, the committee have been compelled to sell part
of the small funded stock, the interest of which is de-
voted to giving from year to year small grants to the
widows of fishermen and mariners having children under
fourteen years of age, whose husbands have been drowned
in their vocation. From the financial statement it
appeared also that though the income had increasd by
1,570/., the relief at the same time had been to a greater
ratio—viz., 2,000.

Among the chief speakers were Lord Haddo and Sir
C. Napier. The report having been adopted, and thanks
voted to the chairman, the meeting terminated.

THE LONDON GAZETTE

(THIS EVENING.)

CROWN-OFFICE, MAY 5.
MEMBER RETURNED TO SERVE IN THIS PRESENT
PARLIAMENT.

__.
Borough of Taunton--"SirJohn William Itamsden, of
Byram, in the West Riding of the county of York, Bart.,
in the room of Arthur Mills, Esq., whose election for the
said borough has been declared void.
WAR-OFFICE, MAY 6.
sth Regiment of Dragoon Guards—Captain William
Richard Newport Campbell, from the 9th Light Dragoons,
to be Captain, vice Johnson, who exchanges, May 6.
7th Dragoon Guards—Lieutenant Thomas William Goff
to be Captain, by purchase, vice Bunbury, who retires ;
Cornet Montagu Dettmar to be Lieutenant, by purchase,
vice Goff, May 6.
2nd Dragoons—Cornet the Honourable Matthew Fitz-
Maurice Deane, from the 10th Light Dragoons, to be Cor-
net, vice Parry, who retires, May 6.
6th Dragoons—Cornet Arthur Pryse Jones to be Lieu-
tenant, la purchase, vice Probyn, who retires, May 6.
9th Light Dragoons—Captain Chardin Philip Johnson,
from the sth Dragoon Guards, to be Captain, vice Camp-
bell, who exchanges, May 6.
10th Light Dragoons—Cornet Henry Fullerton Rich-
mond, from the 12th Light Dragoons, to be Cornet, vice
the Honourable Matthew Fitzmaurice Dean, appointed to
the 2nd Dragoons, May 6.
Coldstream Regiment of Foot Guards—Captain John
Halkett le Couteur, from the 87th Foot, to be Lieutenant
and Captain, vice the Hon. Augustus George Charles
Chichester, who excnanges, May 6.
13th Foot—Lieutenant Edward Lynch, to be Captain,
by purchase, vice Hogge, who retires ; Ensign Arthur
Bainbrigge, to be Lieutenant, by purchase, vice Lynch,
May 6.
23d Foot—Surgeon Joseph Burke, from the 24th Foot,
to be Surgeon, vice Gamble, who exchanges, May 6.
24th Foot—Surgeon Richard Gamble, M.D., from the
23d Foot, to be Surgeon, vice Burke, who exchanges,
May 6.
27th Foot—Lieutenant James Henry Creagh, to be Cap-
tain, by purchase, vice Pattison, who retires ; Ensign
Charles James Knox Gore, to be Lieutenant, by purchase,
vice Creagh ; Ensign Francis Lambton, from the 98th
Foot, to be Ensign, vice Gore, May 6.
42d Foot—Ensign Frederick Henry Hope, from the Ist
Foot, to be Ensign, vice Fletcher, who retires, May 6.
53d Foot—Ensign Thomas Acton to be Lieutenant, by
purchase, vice Waters, who retires ; Ensign George Henry
Pocklington, from the 18th Foot, to be Ensign, vice Acton,
May 6. '

55th Foot—Lieutenant Benjamin Dunbar Wemyss, from
Paymaster, Cape Mounted Riflemen, to be Lieutenant,
vice Macdonnell, appointed Paymaster ; Ensign James
Hannay to be Lieutenant, by purchase, vice Wemyss, who
retires, May 6.
58th Foot—Paymaster-Sergeant John Harris Roger Har-
rison, of the 58th Foot, to be Ensign, without purchase,
vice Tighe, promoted, May 6.
60th Foot--Captain Thomas Biggs, from the 97th Foot,
to be Captain, vice Sibthorp, who exchanges, May 6.
83d Foot—Captain Richard Rodes Wyvill, from the 90th
Foot, to be Captain, vice Crawfurd, who exchanges, May 6.
80th Regiment of. Foot—Major-General Lawrence Ar-
guimbau, C. 8., to be Colonel, vice Lieutenant-General
Henry Daubeney, deceased, April 30.
87th Foot—Lieutenant and Captain the Honourable
Augustus George Charles Chichester, from the Coldstream
Regiment of Foot Guards to be Captain, vice Lo Contour,
who exchanges, May 6.
90th Foot— Captain Robert H. Payne Crawfurd, from
the 83d Foot, to be Captain, vice Wyvill, who exchanges,
May 6.

97th Foot, Captain Richard Francis Waldo Sibthorp,
from the 60th Foot, to be Captain, vice Biggs, who ex-
changes, May 6.
Ceylon Rifle Regiment—First Lieutenant James Armar
Butler to be Captain, by purchase, vice Lucas, who re-
tires ; Second Lieutenant Charles Rouch to be First Lieu-
tenant, by purchase, vice Butler, May 6.
Cape Mounted Riflemen—John Gregory Gurney, Esq.,
to be Paymaster, vice Wemyss, appointed Lieutenant in
the 55th Foot, May 6.
HOSPITAL STAFF.—Staff Assistant-Surgeon William
Thomas Hoskin, M.D., to be Staff-Surgeon of the Second
Class, vice Affieck, deceased ; William Snell, Gent., to be
Assistant-Surgeon to the Forces, vice Hoskin, promoted
on the Staff, May 6.
STAFF.—Chaplains—The Reverend Henry Press Wright
to be Chaplain to the Forces, May 6.
MEMORANDIIM.—The proper names of the officer who
was removed from an Ensigncy in the Ist Foot to be
Second Lieutenant of the Rifle Brigade, in the Gazette of
the 29th April, 1853, are William James Montgomery
Cuninghame, and not William James Montgomery Cun-
ninghame. Sergeant-Major John Campbell, appointed
Quartermaster of the 17th Foot on the 29th April, 1853,
was from the 89th, and not the 98th Regiment.