The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-06 00:00:00

THE BUDGET.-ADJOURNED DEBATE.

The house then went into committee of Ways and
Means.

The resolution for raising a supply by way of duties on
all property in the United Kingdom being read,
Mr. LAWLESS rose to move, by way amendment, that
the words " Great Britain" be substituted for " United
Kingdom." If he were asked why he had not voted in the
minority the other night, he would reply that he was not
only member forClonmel, but had an interest in the budget,
as a question for the kingdom at large, and regarded the
principle of it as a step in the right direction. The present
Chancellor of the Exchequer was the first who had the
courage to leap over the park-wall of the privileged classes,
and place on their shoulders, in the shape of a legacy duty,
a fair share of the burdens which they had hitherto escaped.
He regarded the amendment of the hon, baronet as nothing
more than an attempt to keep up those fences and park-
walls, and to bring back the late Government to power,
and he had therefore voted against it, but that vote would
not prevent his resisting the extension of the income tax
to Ireland, and, whatever might be the result, ho would
most certainly press his motion to a division. He desired
to prevent the late Government being restored to power for
many reasons. First, he remembered that they had pro-
posed to extend the income tax to funded property and
salaries in Ireland, and he understood that they would not
have opposed the motion of which the hon. baronet (Sir
B. Hall) gave notice, when they were in power, for the
extension of the tax to all property whatsoever in that
country. This motion would be a good test of their opinions
on the subject. They all knew that at the last election
every Liberal Irish member felt himself bound to do his
best to turn out the Government, which, by their inflam-
matory placards, had raised the disturbances at Stockport,
which were used as a war cry during the Irish elections.
(" Hear" from the Opposition.) He trusted such scenes as
occurred at Six-mile-bridge, and elsewhere, in consequence,
would never be seen again. But if they were to form an
alliance with the members of that Government, after they
had done all they could to put them out of power, and pre-
vent their exciting agitation and religious discord in Ire-
land, the most simple peasant would be puzzled what to
think of his representatives, or to explain the conduct of
those who professed to be the leaders of public opinion in
Ireland. A very excellent and patriotic man, Mr. Henry
Grattan, was turned out of Meath last year because he had
voted for a coercion bill at a time when it was necessary.
The present member for Meath, his successor, was moving
heaven and earth at present to restore to power a Govern-
ment whose constant pastime had been to give Ireland
coercion bills, and who, when last in power, had threatened
the priests, who were really the best guardians of the
public peace. He had not voted for the amendment, be-
cause he was opposed to the object its movers had in view,
but it did not follow that he accepted the propositions of
the budget. On the contrary, there was evidence to show
that Ireland was in such a state of distress even now as to
be unable to bear her share of the income tax. He did
not wish to exempt any class able to meet taxation, nor
would he say but that in Ulster and parts of the south
they were able to pay taxes as well as in many parts of
England ; but he contended that the country was only in a
state of convalescence and not able to undergo such a heavy
infliction so soon after the sufferings of the famine. It
was not generally known here how heavily Ireland was
taxed. By a return recently obtained by the hon. mem-
ber for the University of Dublin it appeared, on a view of
the comparative taxation of both countries, that the
amount spread over the whole of Ireland was 3s. 70. in
pound, while in England it was only 2s. 4d. in the pound,
thus giving an excess of ls. 3d. on Irish over the aggregate
of Irish taxation. Even in England an income tax, when
brought to bear against small traders, was a most unad-
visable measure, and in resisting its application to Ireland
he had no object but to avert the tax from those in that
country who would be crushed by this addition to a- bur-
den which they at present could hardly bear. The income
tax would not only very much retard progress in the small
boroughs of the south and west of Ireland, but would
accelerate greatly the emigration going on there, which
was taking from the country all the most useful artisans
and workmen. He did approve of the rest of the
budget, but not of the application of the income tax
to Ireland, and he would do his utmost, upon that
question, to ascertain correctly the sense of the House.
He hoped the time would come when Ireland would be
well able to bear her fair share of the national burdens,
but, as ho believed that time had not yet arrived, he begged
to move that the words " Great Britain" be introduced in
each line of the resolution before the committee, in place
of the words " United Kingdom."
Colonel DUNNE said, his hon. friend in not supporting
the amendment made the other night by the hon. baronet
the member for Hertfordshire (Sir B. Lytton) seemed to
him to have missed the only feasible opportunity of attain-

ing the object he desired, and was attempting instead
to follow a course in which he must be aware he had
scarcely any hope of succeeding. (Hear, hear.) The proper
moment having been allowed to pass by, this was neither
the time nor the occasion for bringing forward such a mo-
tion, and he thought it of so futile a character that he
should have, been incline :1 to walk out of the house, had he
not by so doing rendered himself liable to misconstruction
out of doors. He would vote in favour of any Ministry
that would impose a just taxation on Ireland ; but it must
be remembered that the same taxation was not always an
equal taxation as between England and his own country.
(Hear.) That was the position taken up by those Irish
members who had opposed the budget. He maintained
that the remission of the consolidated annuities was by no
means an equivalent for the imposition of the income tax.
It must be remembered that when additional taxation was
imposed on England it generally returned to that country
in some form, for the dockyards, arsenals, and Government
establishments were nearly all situated there ; but Ireland
had no such return, and this was one of the things that
made the imposition of additional taxation upon her un-
just. If the hon. member succeeded in the motion ho had
proposed no one would be more glad of his success than he
(Colonel Dunne) would be ; but he repeated that he did not
think the hon. member had adopted the proer mode of
securing the object he aimed at. (Hear, hoar.)
Mr. V. SCULLY wished to remark that the Irish mem-
bers who had voted for the budget on Monday night had
done so upon a balance of the measures proposed regard-
mg Ireland, and the hon. and gallant colonel who had just
' sat down had apparently adopted the same course when he
recorded his vote for an income tax for Ireland upon Mr.
Blackall's motion of the sth of March, 1849, before the
hon. and gallant colonel had ostensibly allied himself to
the party with whom he now acted. (Colonel Dunne—"l
did not vote for that motion.") He (Mr. V. Scully) was ,
not for an income tax to Ireland if he could possibly avoid
it. But if he supported the Government !proposal it was
because it would be a relief to small farmers of the dis-
tressed districts which he represented. (Hear.) In March,
1852, he told his constituents he would do all he could to
get rid of the consolidated annuities. There were some
favourable circumstances in the condition of Ireland. He
remembered the time when he only obtained lls. for wool
for which he expected in a few weeks to realise 235. 6d.
(Hear.) Beef and mutton, too, were fetching high prices
—far greater than could be expected if so largo a portion
were not consumed in England. (Hear.) He thought that
a change in the incidence of taxation would benefit the
people of Ireland. If, however, this budget should pass,
he should always consider that every shilling of the famine
advances was repaid. The income tax for 7 years would
realise 480,0001. a year—that would be 3,000,0001. The
increase in the spirit duties would bring in 250,0001. which
at 20 years' purchase, would be 4,000,0001. Then there
were the succession duties, which would realise 2,000,0001.
more, so that, in one way or another, the Govern-
ment would realise 8,000,0001. or 10,000,0001. for.the Eng-
lish Exchequer by the present budget. He would not run
away to-night, but stay and give his vote on this proposi-
tion. (Cheers.) He might be told of what the people of
Ireland would say if he voted against the proposition of
the hon. member (Mr. Lawless). He did not care one far-
thing what the people of Ireland might think for the mo-
ment. (Cheers and laughter.) He would look to what
they would think when they understood the question.
(Hear, hear.) He would look into the question for them.
He would look to the interests of that great county of
Cork, which produced the ablest men of Ireland. (Laugh-
ter.) He would not deny that there were able men in Ire-
land who might come to a contrary opinion, but they. had
not the means which he possessed of forming an opinion
upon the spot. (Hear, hear.) He was sent here as the
representative of his constituents ; they were not—and he
said it with great respect—his representatives. (Hear.)
He should like to see 100 of his tenant-farmers in London
asking him to give an account of his conduct in Parlia-
ment, in reference to the vote he was about to give. He
should have a very selfish account to render to them, if, to
absolve his personal property from income tax, he e saddled
them with the payment of the consolidated annuitief! for 40
years. He should not, therefore, object to see
inquisi-
torial tax levied upon Ireland, if it were divested of its
character, and levied, for example, upon funds,
salaries, shares in public companies, and landlords' rents,
with a due deduction for annuities and rentcharges, which
should also bear their share of the tax. He had recom-
mended that a deputation of the Irish members should see
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which they had done ;
and they had also seen Sir J. Young. They were told that
the income tax would bo introduced into Ireland, with
mitigatory circumstances, and with as little of an inquisi-
torial character as possible. A farmer, holding land at a
rent of between 2001. and 3001. a-year, would not ho be-
lieved, be assessed at all, and those who 'paid rent exceed-
ing 3001. a-year and upwards would be assessed at ono-
third instead of one-half their rent. The Irish members
had also urged that 270,000%, the amount of arrears of the
consolidated annuities duo from the distressed unions,
should be remitted. Ho trusted that the clergy of Ireland
would be leniently dealt with. (Oh !) The Protestant
clergy wero heavily taxed to the poor-rates, and the in-
comes of the Roman Catholic and Presbyterian clergy wore
so grievously reduced by the departure of their flocks that
they ought not to be called upon to support the state which
did not snpport them. (Oh!) At least therotight not to

' make their returns to local parties, but ought to be allowed
to make them to some central authority. His consti
tuents, the small farmers of the county of Cork, should not
say of him—" You have made use of your privilege of Par-
liament to protect your own purse from income tax, and
you have saddled us for 40 years with the consolidated
annuities." He could meet them all now with a clear
conscience—(cheers)—and he should use his best exer-
tions to obtain the modifications proposed by the Irish
members relative to the imposition of the income tax.
The people of Ireland were shrewd and intelligent, and
would be able to distinguish between figures of speech and
figures of arithmetic. Trying the question by the test of
figures, there could be no doubt that the substitution of
the income tax for the consolidated annuities was a good
bargain for Ireland. (Hear.) What he disliked in the
income tax was its inquisitorial character ; but he hoped
the Government would be able to deprive it of that. If
not, the people of Ireland would join the people of England
in agitating against it. It was in this view that the hon.
member for Birmingham, who had always opposed the tax,
approved of its extension to Ireland, for he said the Irish
were such a troublesome set that they would soon compel
Parliament to repeal the tax altogether. (Hear, and a
laugh.) For his part, he was not disposed to give a vote
which would restore the Six-mile-bridge Administration to
office. (Hear.)
Mr. DUFFY thought that the hon. member for Clonmel
intended to fight a sham battle on this occasion. (Hear.)
When the question was raised before in a manner likely to
command a majority, the lion. member voted against it.
(Hear.) The hon. member for the county of Cork would
not give a vote which he thought might have the effect of
restoring the late Ministry to power, but he had no scruple
in supporting those who had at one time acquired the epi-
thet of "base, bloody, and brutal"—(hear, hear)—and who
had never shrunk from the imposition of coercion bills on
Ireland when such answered their purpose. (Hear, hear.)
Another reason given for not reties' agsinst the income tax
the other night was, that he would not go into the same
lobby with those who sympathised with the outrages at
Stockport, and who had defended the affair of Six-mile-
bridge • but the hon. gentleman had no objection at all to
To into same lobby with the author of the Ecclesiastical
itles Bill and those who supported that measure. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. member for Cork had told them repeat-
edly that there were members on that (the Opposition) aide
of the house who had no interest in Ireland. Now, cer-
tainly there wore a large number of members on that side
of the house who had no interest in Downing-street. (Hear,
and a laugh.) Their career had been characterised, never-
theless, by consistency of conduct and by integrity in that
house. (Hear, hear.) He would now pass, however, to
the general question whether an income tax should or
should not be imposed in Ireland. He was entitled to
assume, that up to this time Ireland was considered by the
Government as having been properly exempted from in-
come tax, else why had it not been imposed? Then what
were the reasons for imposing it now ? So far as he could
gather, the reasons amounted to this—first, that England
never had so little need of taxation from Ireland, and that
Ireland could never so ill spare it. (A laugh.) That was
the first leg of the argument. The other was, that in 1842,
when Sir It. Peel proposed the income tax, Ireland was
much more prosperous than she was now, and that Eng-
land was less prosperous then than she was now. (A laugh.)
Now, England was richer than she had ever been before,
and Ireland presented a spectacle such as, he believed, the
world never presented before, her population leaving her in
multitudes because they could not find the means of acquir-
ing a livelihood. (Hear, hear.) In considering this pro-
posal for an income tax on Ireland he thought it was right
to look to some of the items of their expenditure that were
not sent to Ireland ; and the first he would mention was

the half-million raised for the purposes of the militia, not
one farthing of which would be expended in Ireland. He
thought it was a somewhat cool proceeding for Ministers
to ask the Irish people to pay an income tax which
would go to the maintenance of militia that they would
not extend to Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Another item of
expenditure to which he would refer was the packet
service. Government after Government had declared that

Ireland should not have an American packet station, but
nevertheless they asked that part of the money for the
packet service should be paid by Ireland. (Hear, hear.) It
was said that in opposing this income tax they forgot the
increased comforts conferred upon the people. There was
a reduction iu the duty on nuts and anchovies, on brocade
and artificial flowers, aad things of that sort, and then they
were told of the comforts of the poor being increased. (A
laugh.) His main objection to the proposal was, that it
would be most oppressive to the industrious poor of Ire-
land. (Hear, hear.) The budget was conceived in a spirit
directly in favour of England. (No, no.) The declaration
of Mr. Pitt, 80 years ago, was as true now as then, when
he said, " The uniform policy of England has been to de-
prive Ireland of the use of her own resources, and to make
her bubservient to the interests and the opulence of the
English people." (Hear, hear.) That was exactly what
they were driving at at this moment. Many of the Irish
members had voted most unwillingly against the Govern-
ment on this occasion. For himself, he could say that his
vote was not a party vote. He was not desirous to see the
late Government again in power, but, at the same time, ho
must say, that to him, and a very numerous party in Ire-
land, the going out of any Government was a very inferior
question ; and the mere circumstance of any man's holding
office or not would not for a moment prevent him voting
against a measure like the present. (Hear, hear.) He had
no doubt that some few Irish members had voted in favour
of that measure from conscientious grounds. (Hear, and
Oh, oh !) But, proceeded the hon. member, short as my
experience in this house has been, I must say I do not be-
lieve that in the worst days of the Walpoles or the Polhams
more scandalous corruption existed than I have seen prac-
tised under my own eye in corrupting Irish members.
(Confusion, and loud cries of " Name, name !") lam in
the hands of the house. (Continued cries of " Name,
name !" and " No, no !") I will proceed to another part
of the question. (No, no ! Name, name ! and uproar.) If
the chairman tells me, on behalf of the house, that it is
their wish I should name, I shall do so. (Laughter, cries
of "No, no !" and " Name, name !")
Mr. V. SCULLY rose, amid great uproar, and was
understood to complain of the charge that had been made ;
but amid the noise and confusion he could not be heard in
the gallery.
Mr. J. BALL (Carlow) rose, and with considerable vehe-

mence said -I move that the words -of the hon. member
for New Ross be taken down. (Groat laughter, and re-
newed confusion.)
Mr. DUFF Y again rose, but the calls of " Name, name,"
were so loud and incessant, that he was unable to proceed.
The CHAIRMAN—I believe the motion is, that the-
words of the hon. member for Now Ross be takon down.
What are the words? (Great laughter.)
Mr. J. BALL—I believe I was strictly in order in ma-
king the motion that the words—(interruption)—that the
words, which are fresh in the recollection of every member
near me, should b© taken down. ("No, no," and uproar.)
I apprehend that it is the duty of the clerk of the house to
take down the words. (" No, no," and confusion.)
Mr. G. H. MOORE rose, but from the noise, uproar,
and calls of " Chair,", not a word he uttered reached the

The CHAIRMAN—I apprehend that I can take no
course in committee with reference to any language that
may have been used by the hon. member. It is for the
house to say what shall be done. It will therefore be my
duty, if the words are taken down, to report them to the
house. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. G. MooRE and Mr. J. BALL here rose together, and
both seemed to speak, but from the cries of " Chair,"
" Duffy," and the extraordinary noises which prevailed,
they were allowed to gesticulate in dumb show. At
length
Mr. MOORE was heard to state, that during the debate
on the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill a similar motion to the pre-
sent was proposed, and the Speaker then decided that no
such motion could be made. (Cheers and counter-cheers.)
Mr. F. SCULLY (amid cries of " Oh, oh," and much
confusion) said—l must correct that statement. On the
occasion referred to the Speaker declared that the motion
would have been in order if it had been made at the time
the words were used. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. BALL—If the hon. member for New Ross (Mr.
Duffy) declines to repeat the words I will not press my
motion for taking them down ; but the words used were
these :—" The grossest corruption ever practised since the
(lays of the Walpoles and the Pelhams has been practised
under my own eyes upon Irish members of this house."
(Hear, hear.)
The hon. member having written down the above words
on a slip of paper, handed them to the chairman of the
committee (Mr. Bouverie), loy whom they were read from
the chair.

Sir D. NORREYS—Nothing is more distressing than
such occurrences as the present, and I appeal to the hon.
member for New Ross to withdraw the expressions. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. gentleman is a young member, and pro-
bably has not the honour of the house and of Irish mem-
bers so much at heart as I have. (Laughter, and cries of
hear.) I pray him at once to withdraw the words ; and I
put myself forward to make this appeal, as I am as clear as
any one from the imputation those words convey.
The CHAIRMAN, having again read the words written
down by the hon. member for Carlow (Mr. J. Ball), in-
quired, before putting the question that they be taken
down by the clerk, whether the hon. member for New
Ross impeached their accuracy?
Mr. DUFFY—The words read are so near to those I
used that I do not take any exception to them. (Cheers,
laughter, and considerable confusion.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—I beg to recal the recollection of
the house to the circumstances in which the hon. gentle-
man used the words complained of, and the manner in
which he followed them up. (Hear.) The words as written
down appear to me, and I believe to the hon. member him-.
self, as nearly as possible the same as he used. He was
immediately, on this side of the house, met with loud cries
of " Name, name." (Hear, hear.) Now, it appears to me
that if the hon. gentleman meant to make a vague asser-
tion which he had not the least means of proving—(hear,
hear)—he might be justified in passing on to other matter ;
but if, on the contrary, he meant to make an assertion
affecting the integrity and honour of Irish members, he
ought to name the members charged with this gross cor-
ruption, which, he says, is unparalleled since the clays of
the Walpoles and the Pelhams. (Cheers.) Instead of that,
however, he took the first and the immediate opportunity
of saying, "Now I will pass to another part of the sub-
ject." ("Hear," cries of "No," and cheers.) If I am
wrong in this statement the hon. gentleman will con-
tradict me ; but I understood him to say, immediately
after there was a cry of " Name," that if the chairman, I r
the desire of the committee, called on him to name, le
would do so. But, of course, it was not in the pwer of
the chairman to do that, and then the hon. gentlemanl the
im-
mediately said he was going to pass to another part
o
subject. Such being the case, it appears to me that the
committee in general, and the Irish members .e particular,
I b
which the hon. gentleman is totally unable
to Tirf)ve—
may consider those words as general words used in e ate,
(cheers)—brought forward for the purpose ofaffixing a
stigma on Irish members which they do not deserve—(re-
nowed cheers)—and that he is utterly unable to prove any
single word of what he had uttered. (Loud cheers.) If,
however, the hon. gentleman, on the other hand, is ready,
with the Speaker in the chair, to proceed to charge Irish
members individually with that corruption with which he
has charged them generally, then I should not refuse my
vote in favour of the words being taken down by the
clerk. But, as matters now stand, unless the hon. gentle.
man goes on to take that step, I consider it would be
better for the committee to treat those words with the con-
tempt
apprehend(Loud
that,s.
iwhen words of this
tomdr)t.
Lthueyclidessefle.
if they are ever used.—( aughter)—it is quite
if the hon. gentlemtosaimoses to go into the
kindpos
possible
balree
tuhsaetd;
of every gentleman a great deal miht be unpleasant
proof of them, he might prove thenener satisfaction
to state or repeat. (Cries of
Hear.") I understced.
hon. friend differently
sfiaoyml
Nuvnhdateraththeyodhtahvee
bweoerndds
eosfrirtibyll, ohs! " But I must
may have beeneed ("No!" laughter and
cries of
ulterior meaning
understood him to say that lies in his own breast)—l
oeen practised towards the Irishe him to say, (what his
liPt;ear-letliei neherbet
grossest corruption had
and laughter).is not
t('
the
op,
precise

form of the sentence used by the hon. member, and I con-
ceive that when the house is asked to adopt a strict pro-
ceeding of this kind, they must take the exact words used,
and not put any gloss upon them. (Hear, hear.) The
words, as I understood them, constituted an accusation
against the Government—(laughter)—and might or might
not imply an imputation on Irish members. (" Oh, oh ! ")
The words were, that the grossest corruption had been
practised towards Irish members. (Vehement cries of
" Name !" during which the hon. gentleman received from
another hon. member a copy of the words placed in the
hands of the chairman.) The hon. member then read the
form of words which had been handed to the chairman by

the hon. member for Carlow—" That the grossest corrui-

tion ever practised since the days of the Walpoles and the
Pelhams has been practised under my own eyes upon Irish
members of this house ;.' and proceeded :—By whom, then,
has this corruption been practised? Not by the Irish mem-
bers on the Government ; no one pretends that Irish mem-
bers have corrupted the Government—(laughter)—or that
any bribery had proceeded from any of the hon. gentlemen
opposite to the occupiers of the Treasury bench ; but a
comparison has been drawn between the right hon. gentle-
men opposite and the Walpoles and the Pelhams of an
earlier generation, and it was asserted that the grossest
corruption has been practised by them. (" Name, name!"
cries of " Order," and cheers.) If, therefore, those right
hon. gentlemen, out of a regard for their own dignity and
character, think it necessary to have those words taken
down, and require some ulterior proceeding to be taken,
that is all very well; but at all events let it be understood
that the accusation was made against them. (Hear, and
cries of "Oh !") It is only in this sense that any complaint
of the kind can be entertained. (Hear.) If the words are
taken down, let them be taken down accurately, and I am
sure the house will not strain the imputation a hair's
breadth beyond what was conveyed.
Dr. PHILLIMORE-4 think the words were written
down most accurately by the hon. member for Carlow—
(hear)—and it corncerns the honour of this house to know
what member of the Government has practiced gross cor-
ruption under the oyes of the hon. member for New Roos
upon any Irish member, with a view to influence his vote.
(Cheers.)
Mr. OTWAY—The hon member for Meath.(Mr. Lucas)
has given a wrong explanation of the words now complain-
ed of. The house should recollect what preceded the words
Ndiegwna Foss then e 8n o
in question. The hon member for New Ross said that
som e few Irish members had acted conscientiously, and
then several of my hon. friends near me cried 'out with in •
Nmveenftewo,n to indeemdake
th
!"Tho eacheuosna.ton miemobfegrrofossr
corruption which, he said, had been practised upon Irish
formerl,a
s a ypepenar
ir t
members under his own eyes. (Hear.)
Mr. E. BALL (Cambridgekhire), amid considerable up-
hdMa s
ss e
Ld
oui c a
as ) ha,d
r gi
I up-
roar, expressed his conviction that the hon. Member for
parallel e l between correctan etv t n
the
e e
present
ethesen interpretationtGovern-
ment, Walpoles
of
Meath
at hned Npvoe
ir(
and unless the charge were understood as brought
against the Government there would be no application in
the words.

The CHAIRMAN understood that he was to put the
question that the words suggested by the hon. member for
Carlow (Mr. J. Ball) as having been used by the hon. mem-
ber for New Ross—(cries of They are admitted")—should
be taken down by the clerk, and, if that motion were
agTeed to, the proper course, in the next place, would bo
to report them to the house. Before putting the question,
he must express his decided opinion that the language was
disorderly—(hear)—the general rule being that no expres-
sions imputing improper motives should be used in debate.
(Hear, hear.) He then put the question that the words be
taken down by the clerk.
Mr. DISRAELI—I understand the chairman to say that
he considers the words disorderly because they impute
corrupt motives. It apt ears to me that there is some doubt
about the words. (" No, no," and cries of "They are ad-
mitted.") I do not find any imputation of corrupt motives
in them. (Cries of " Oh, oh," and " Order.") I regret
that there should be such a tone of levity in the house upon
this subject. I Say that I find no imputation of corrupt
motives, but a distinct imputation of corrupt conduct.
(" Oh, oh," and laughter.) Nothing is more clear than
this—that an allegation of corrupt conduct, especially if
such conduct is alleged against a Ministry, is not disorderly
in the House of Commons. Such an allegation is not dis-
orderly, for it is the first and paramount duty of a member
of this house, if such corruption exists, to denounce it.
(Hear.) Therefore we must not declare that a member has
been guilty of disorderly conduct because he has accused a
Minister of corrupt conduct. (Hear, hear.) By so doing
we should be depriving ourselves of one of the highest pri-
vileges of our position. (Hear.) I think it is evident, from
this consideration, how important it is that we should have
a clear admission of what were the precise words used.
If those words impute corrupt motives to an individual,
whether a Minister or not, I believe them to be disorderly;
but if a distinct accusation has been made against the
Ministry by a member in his place that they have acted
corruptly, that member is not guilty of disorderly conduct,
but has been acting upon his right—(cheers)—and if he
can substantiate his charge, ho is exercising the highest
duty he can exercise as a member of this house. (Hear,
hear.) I beg therefore that the committee will bo most
careful as to their proceedings in this matter.
Lord PALMERSTON—I am ready to admit, as has
been stated by the rizht .hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli),
that it is competent for any member of this house to im-
peach the conduct of her Majesty's Government, if it
should appear to him that he has ground to maintain his
accusations—(hear, hear)—and, as far as the charge of the
hon. member for New Ross (Mr. Duffy) against her Ma-
j esty s Government goes, I challenge him to the proof.
(Loud cheering from the Ministerial side.) I want no
taking down of the words, and reporting them to the
Speaker. As far, howevsr, as the charge goes against the
Irish members of this house the matter stands upon a
different footing. (Hear, hear.) The 'hon. member has
made a charge, which, whatever may be the particular
words which he used, implies necessarily an imputation
upon the honour and conduct of his Irish colleagues.
(Hear, and cheers.) Now, we all know that men are fre-
quently led away in the course of argument to make asser-
tions which, in their cooler moments, they would feel that
they had no good ground for making. The hon. member
for New Ross is a young member in this house—(hear,
hear)— and be will excuse me if, having been here longer
than himself—(a laugb)—l venture to suggest to him a line
of conduct which I think will redound to his credit. I
will put it to the hon. member whether he would not cut
short the difficulty in which he is likely to involve us by
saying that which I am persuaded must be passing in his
inmost mind—namely, that he regrets that, in the warmth
of debate, lie cast reflections upon hon. members which lie
has no good grounds for maintaining, and which he would
not deliberately put forth. (Hear, and cheers.) Nothing
would be more creditable to the hon. member than the ad-
mission that he had not intended to use words imputing
dishonourable conduct to honourable men—(hear)—and I
would humbly venture to suggest to him, that it would
consist better with what is duo to himself, as well as with
what is due to the representatives of this country, if he
were fairly, handsomely, and candidly to say, that he
did not mean deliberately and seriously to impute any dis-
honourable conduct to any members. (Hear, hear, and
cheers.)
Mr. LUCAS rose amid loud shouts for " Duffy," and
repeated cries of " Spoke, spoke," which prevented him
from proceeding for some moments. When the tumult had
subsided, the hon. gentleman said—l believe lam per-
fectly in order—and I rise merely to protest against its be-
ing taken for granted, as the noble lord seems to do, that
those words which are taken down, and which have a moat
distinct meaning, have the meaning which be attributes to
them. (Cries of "Oh !" and laughter.) I do maintain
that there is no meaning of that kind in those words.
(Renewed cries of "Oh !") The words that have been
taken down contain an imputation against the Ministers,
but do not necessarily imply any imputation upon Irish
members. (Laughter, cries of "Oh !" and renewed calls
for " Duffy.") I say they do not necessarily imply any
imputation whatever upon the honour and character of
the Irish members. (" Oh !" and laughter.) If I ven-
tured to offer the hon. member for New Ross any advice,
it would be to stand upon his right and on the words which
he has used—to take the words as they stand, and leave
the house if it pleases to do so, but as I believe it never
will, to determine that these words have a sense which I
am persuaded no rational man could deduce from them—
namrly, that they contain an imputation upon any person
except her Majesty's Ministers. (Shouts of "Oh ! ' and
laughter.)
Sir G. GREY—If those words, which have been made
. . .

the subject of complaint, do not bear the meaning which
has been affixed to them, it would certainly be most satis-
factory to the house to hear that such is the case from the
hon. member by whom they were used. (Hear, and
cheers.) It seems to me that we have engaged in a very
fruitless discussion as to the accuracy of the words. .The
chairman, as I think, with great propriety, before he put,
the question that the words should be taken down, ap-
pealed to the hon. member for New Ross to know whether
they had been handed to him, and I understood the hon.
gentleman (Mr. Duffy) to admit their substantial accuracy.
(Cheers.) Then, after the hon. gentleman has made this
admission, and when the committee is proceeding to dis-
cuss whether, the accuracy of the words having been ad-
mitted, they should be taken down, the hon. member for
Meath (Mr. Lucas) attempts to deny the accuracy of the
words which have been read. (Laughter and cheers.)
Mr. LUCAS—I beg the right hon. gentleman's pardon.
I did not deny—(loud and prolonged shouts of " Oh
oh !")—I did not deny the accuracy of the words. (Re-
newed cries of "Oh !" and much confusion.) I really
think I have some right to appeal to the courtesy of gen-
tlemen opposite. lam repeating what I have said before.
I read the words from this paper, and my whole argument
was founded upon those words being accurate. They are—
" The grossest corruption since the time of the Walpolos
and the Pelhams has been practised under my own eyes
upon the Irish members in this house." I assumed th
their accuracy. od orris hon. member
Sir G. GREY—I certainly understo )
accuracy of those words, and my argument was basecmhtelepaaorth:
R hd t
and to deny rossest corruption had been
that, under his own eyes, the g
for Meath totdheantythtehehon.
accuracyme mbar for New oss a s ated
practised. It is true that afterwards,:hfe itihoen
hon. member
:li tt:nhgefaort; e
sub-
stantial accuracy of the words,
denied that a direct construction had been put upon them,
membere
Ntheew Rossnoble
WOUld have admitted that a wrong construction had
lbeen
but the lion. member for New Ross, who was sitting by
ptPehealhmona. made to o himfobry
him did not attempt to confirm that view. I had hoped
t!)iradt;
(Lord i n an thesrwaelrinteorsto n
)a,
Placed upon the words, and would have relieved the
mittee from the painful position in
which we are
placed, by at once denying that he intended now
upon the Government or upon Irish Di to cast, either
be-
ing able to prove it, em imputation embers, without
either to the Government or to equally disgraceful
hear.) I hope that if the hon. lrish members. (Hear,
not retract these words, he ' member fpr New Ross does
he used them, or will
the charges he has proceed to give substantial proofs of
brought both '
and the Government. 1 against the Irish members
Mr. H. HERBERT--Kear.)
to this most 13 an Irish member, who has lis-
tenedthe painful • •
discussion, I venture to remind
committee of the ad • vice which has been given by the
noble lord who leads this house. That advice was to treat
to come forward b
y an hon. member who did not dare
either to prove his charge or to name the
parties against whom that charge was made, with the con-
tempt which it deserved. Hear,"
member, and
(" and cheers.) As an
Irish and as one of those who must, therefore, of
necessity be included in the
ber for New Ross, I for one am perfectly ready to take the
advice of the noble lord (Iwar) —more especially as since
that excellent advice was given the Home Secretary has
made an appeal to the member for New Ross, which I
think the house will understand me when I say would have
been responded to by anybody deserving the name of—but
I hesitate to add the word. (Loud cheers, and laughter.)
Mr. DUFFY then rose and said—l should have hoped,
Mr. Bouverie, that under the circumstances in which I
stand now, assailed as I have been here—(derisive cheers,
and cries of "Oh !" from the Ministerial benches)—and
called upon to give an answer undor circumstances which I
,prepine are considered serious, I should haves hoped that
ve l
I should have been protected from such offensive language