The Sun.
London, England, 1853-02-19 00:00:00

the friendly disposition of France. Now, we could not
shut our eyes to the fact that there had been quite an
opposite opinion entertained out of doors. The general
tone of the press—almost the unanimous tone of the London

ision to which I have adverted, he took credit for the liberal
energy of his policy, and described the principles recom-
mended by his present chief as being a system of antiquated
imbecility. We therefore should know clearly whether
our foreign policy is to be conducted on a principle of
liberal energy or antiquated imbecility. If the principles
of our foreign policy have never changed, how can the
Chancellor of the Exchequer and the First Lord of the Ad-
miralty vindicate the course which they formerly took, the
resolutions which they then supported, and the sentiments
they then expressed? I think they will find it a difficult
task. (Hear, hear.) I have no doubt the noble lord is
perfectly convinced of the justice and truth of the senti-
ments he expressed in 1852. Anything that falls from his
lips on such a subject—or, indeed, upon any subject—as
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, is entitled to the
highest consideration. But, how long is he going to re-
main Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs ? (Cheers.) I
am not speaking now from mere rumour. I ask—and it is
a legitimate question in a debate on our foreign policy—
why did the noble lord take the important post he oceu.
pies ? Was it because his opinions on the French connec-
tion were well known ? Well, is he going to leave the
post because his Cabinet, or the majority of his Cabinet,
does not agree with those opinions? This,, therefore, is
clearly a subject on which some explanation is due •to the
house. (Loud cheers.) I know I may be met, but I
hardly think I shall be met, by the allegation that
I have no right to suppose the noble lord is about to
quit the office he is so competent to occupy. I said, Ido
not speak from rumour on this point, and I will now state
to the house the authority on which I said so. It is a
paragraph in a paper—a journal. I hope, notwithstanding
the conduct of the journals that have criticised some of us,
it will not be undervalued on that account. It is, to bor-
row an expression from our neighbours, " A communica-
tion," and it appears in a journal of great respectability.
It appears, in a large letter, in a prominent place, in a
newspaper, and commences with the significant words,
" We are authorised to state"—in fact, it is redolent of
Downing-street, and no doubt comes from it. (A laugh.)
This first paragraph—for there have be four of *them—
informs us that the arrangements, w ' ere not quite
made when the Cabinet was formed, a ow pretty well
for on
settled ; the noble lord the member don is to con-
tinue leader of the House of Common but is to relinquish
the office of Secretary of State, and he will probably not
assume any other office. I have not the paragraphs here,
and it was only by chance I read them yesterday, but I
can state pretty nearly the substance of them. That was
a very strange announcement, no doubt ; but then came
the second paragraph. We understood from the first that
the noble lord had accepted office as Secretary of State
provisionally ; but people wero surprised at this ' • and then
there came forth another paragraph, in which they were
" authorised to state" that this was a mistake, that the
noble lord was not to hold office as Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs, but was to have some office where there
was nothing. to do somewhere in the neighbourhood of
Waterloo-bridge. (A laugh.) In fact, the only place the
description met was that of the toll-gatherer of that un-
fortunate bridge. (Roars of laughter.) Well, Sir, that
paragraph was not satisfactory. The noble lord, what-
ever the opinions of some of us may be, is rather a fa-
vourite of the people of England—(hear, hear, hear)—
and they did not consider that was exactly the treat-
ment to which a man of his position was entitled. (Cheers.)
There was then another paragraph, in which it was stated
" on authority" that all the other paragraphs were erro-
neous—that the noble lord was going to resign, the office of
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, but was certainly
to continue leader of the house, and that he was to have a
room allowed him in the office of the Secretary of State.
(Laughter.) But the climax was reached when a fourth,
and rather an angry paragraph, written, it seemed, with
some feeling of personal indignation, appeared, in which it
was stated that nothing could be more erroneous or pre-
mature than the announcements that the noble lord was
going to remain in the Foreign-office—that he was not to
continue leader of the House of Commons—that he was to
have a room in the Foreign-office—a small room, I think it
said—but that he was to be allowed two clerks. (Much.
laughter.) Sir, I confess I must protest against this sys-
tem of shutting up gieat men in small rooms, and of bind-
ing to the triumphal chariot wheels of administrative abi-
lity all the fame and genius of the Whig party. (Cheers.)
I think I have a right to ask the noble lord frankly—" Are
yon Secretary of State, or are you not?" (Loud cheers.)
If he is Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs he will no
doubt, on the subject we are treating of to-night, afford
us very satisfactory information ; but, if he is Secretary
of State now, but is not to be Secretary of State to-mor-
row, I think the declaration of the noble lord, on a ques-
tion of foreign policy, is much depreciated in the value
which wo would otherwise attach to it. (Hear, hear.) Sir,
considering the conduct of the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty—conduct which I will not describe, for, to say that
it was the result of design would be offensive, and to
say that it was indiscreet would, as I said before, be im-
pertinent • considering the conduct of the Secretary of the
Board of oontrol, which, be it designed or indiscreet, or
anything else, no epithets can rescue him from the position
he occupies,—considering the programme of the First
Minister, which contradicts all our most recent experiences
and confounds all our convictions,—considering the myste-
rious circumstances which attend on the present occupation
of the post of Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs by the
noble lord the member for London, I think I have a right
to ask for what has not yet been accorded—some clear ex-
planations from the Government with respect to the rela-
tions which exist between this country and France.
(Cheers:) There is one other reason why I am bound to
pursue this inquiry at the present moment, and I find that
reason in the present state of parties in this house. It is
a peculiar state of things—it is quite unprecedented—it is
well deserving the attention of hon. members who sit in
that quarter of the house (pointing to the benches below
the gangway on the Ministerial side). We have at this
moment a Conservative Ministry, and we have a Conserva-
tive Opposition. (Cheers.) Where the great Liberal party
is, I pretend not to know. (Cheers.) Where are the
Whigs—with their great traditions—with two centuries of
L Parliamentary lustre, and deeds of national patriotism ?
(Loud cheers.) There is no one to answer. (Renewed
cheering.) -Where, I ask, are the youthful energies of
Radicalism its buoyant expectations its expanded
hopes ? Awakened, I fear, from the dreams of that ardent
inexperience which attends sometimes the career of
youth, it finds itself at the same moment used and dis-
carded—(cheers)—used without compunction, and not
discarded with too much decency. (Cheers.) Where are
the Radicals t Is there a man in the house who declares
himself to be a Radical ? (Hear, hear.) No, not one,
He would be afraid of being caught and turned into a
Conservative Minister. (Laughter.) Well, how has this
curious state of things been brought about ? Where is the
machinery by which it has been effected—the secret sys-
tem that has brought on this portentous political calamity?
I believe I must go to that inexhaustible magazine of po-
litical devices, the First. Lord of the Admiralty, to explain
the present state of affairs. The house may recollect that
some two years ago, when I had the honour of addressing
them on a subject f great importance, the First Lord of
the Admiralty afforded us, as is his wont, one of those politi-
cal creeds in which his speeches abound ; and the right
hon. gentleman on that occasion, in order that there might
be no mistake—in order that the house and the country
should be undeceived, and that they should not have any
false expectations from, especially the Conservative or Pro-
tectionist party, said, in a manner the most decided, that
his political creed was this:—" I take my stand on pro-
gress." Well, sir, I thought at the time that progress was
an odd thing to ake one's stand upon. (Laughter and
cheering.) I thought at the time that a statesman who
took his stand on progress might find he had got a very
slippery foundation. I thought at the time, though the
right hon. gentleman weighs his words, that this was a
piece of oratorical slip-slop. But I apologise for the mo-
mentary suspicion. I take the earliest opportunity of ex-
pressing to the right hon. gentleman my sincere regret that ,
I had for a moment supposed he had made an inadvertent
observation. I find that it was a system perfectly matured,
and now brought into action, of which the right hen: gentle-
man spoke. For we have now got a Ministry of " progress,"
and every one stands still. We never hear the word" reform"
now; it is no longer a Ministry of reform; it is a Ministry of
progress, every member of which resolves to do nothing.
(Laughter.) All difficult questions are suspended. All
questions which cannot be agreed upon are open questions.
Now, I don't want to be unreasonable, but I think there
ought to be some limit to this system of open questions.
(Cheers.) It is a system which has hitherto prevailed only
partially in this country, and which never has prevailed
with any advantage to it. Let us, at least, fix on some
limits to it. Let Parliamentary reform, let the ballot be
open questions if you please ; let every inststution in
Church and State be open questions; but, at least, let your
answer to me to-night prove that, among your open ques-
tions, you are not going to make one of the peace of Europe.
(Loud cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL.—If the right hon. gentleman wished
to obtain an explanation from Government with respect to
the state of its foreign policy, he might have confined his
observations to a very small portion of that which he has
addressed to the house ; for the statement I made the
other night, that we were on terms of intimate friendship
with France, and that we were acting in concert with
France, with the view of maintaining the peace of Europe,
might almost have sufficed for a member of this house who
was anxious to obtain some assurance on that important
question. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman, when he
sat on this side of the house, observed, with respect to a
change which was proposed to be made in some adminis-
trative department, with respect to economy as regards
the conduct of public business in a public office, that if
that question was introduces into the house he was afraid
it would unfortunately be made a party question. There is
no doubt, if that were the case, and if questions with re-
spect to how many clerks were to be in one office, and
as to whether there should be two or three clerks in another
office, had been made party questions, it would have said
very little for the patriotism of the house ; but, at least,
the evil, though somewhat scandalous, would not have
been very calamitous. But when the right hon. gentleman
tries to make a party question of our foreign policy—
(cheers)—when he tries to throw suspicion on the inten-
tions of Government towards our nearest neighbour
(cheers)—when he tries to sow dissension between two of
the most powerful countries of Europe—then, indeed, he
' makes a party question a calamity, and in bringing for-
ward such a question in the spirit manifested in his speech,
takes a part which becomes a mind deeply imbued with
faction. (Loud cheers.) Sir, I said the other night, and
I repeat it now, that the Government of this country is on
terms of amity with the French Government. (Hear.) I
was happy to hear the right hon. gentleman say that the
domestic policy of France was a matter of concern for
them, and not for us, and that we were not to interfere in
their domestic concerns. Well indeed would it have been
if these sentiments had prevailed in this house in February,
1793. I cannot help reflecting what torrents of blood
might have been spared, and what millions of • treasure
might have been saved—(cheers)—if it had been then laid
down as a principle by all the statesmen in this house that
we should not interfere in the domestic concerns of neigh-
bouring countries. (Hear.) But what other explanation
is it the right hon. gentleman requires? The right hon.
gentleman alluded to a speech of mine in February, 1852.
To all the sentiments of that speech I still adhere. There
is one misreport in that speech to which I may as well
allude. lam supposed to have said that the measures
adopted by the President were no doubt for the welfare of
France. What I stated was, that no doubt the President
considered the measures he had taken were for the welfare
of France. (Hear, hear.) I did not deny that it may be
necessary in certain cases to take all power out of the
hands of the people, and the rifler of France no doubt
might have thought it was necessary to do so at that period.
Whether it was or was not necessary was' a question on
which I of course did not pass an opinion, on which I do
not pass an opinion now. (Hear, hear.) I thought it was
a lamentable sight, during the last five years, to see France
throw off the monarchy under which (as we understood—
for the noble lord's words at the time did not reach us)
she had been peaceful and prosperous, and place herself
under a republic so strangely constituted that it seemed as

if all its elements were framed to make war on each
other ; and that that intestine war could only have been
brought to a termination by surrendering the most valuable
powers a people could exercise ;—that indeed has . been
a melancholy spectacle. But I hoped that the talented
and ingenious people, who in 1789 began the reform of
their constitution, might have arrived by this time
at that which is the most desirable and important of all
national blessings, and I still believe they will find the
means, when the fear of that extreme democracy has
subsided by which their government can be improved,
and that we shall still see them enjoying those institu-
tions, not exactly similar to ours, but as nearly so as is
suited to the character of the people, which are calculated
to bring to perfection and reward the exercise of peaceful
industry'and the attainments of superior talent. In that
spirit, therefore, I looked on the events which have
taken place in France with every desire to suppose
that the ruler of that country was intent on putting
an end to anarchy and disorder, 'and on perfecting such
a Government as would give rest to the people. (Hear,
hear.) It happened that the Government which fol-
lowed, which was the Government of the Earl of
Derby, had another question to consider of very grave
importance—namely, the recognition of the imperial dig-
nity in the person of the ruler of France—the recognition
of a dynasty almost—certainly the recognition of a prince
under the title of Emperor, and in the name of Napoleon
111. It was natural that the powers of Europe, with the
recollection in their minds of what had occurred from 1804
to 1814, should have wished to obtain some assurance that
the Government about to be constituted should adopt the
international acts of the Government which had preceded
it ; but the Government of this country, by the advice of
Lord Derby and the Earl of Malmesbury, took that secu-
rity which they thought necessary, and, when they had
obtained that security, at once acknowledged the Emperor
of France by the title of Napoleon 111. They did not
wait till the other powers had come to a similar decision.
My belief is they did well and wisely in that decision. I
have examined the correspondence which took place on the
occasion, and the conclusion to which I came certainly is
that the Earl of Malmesbury, in that correspondence, while
he showed the utmost conciliation, at the same time main-
tained the dignity of this country. (Cheers.) Therefore lam
not going to blame the Government which preceded um for
any step it took on that occasion. No doubt that early
recognition tended to conciliate the Government of France,
and, therefore, when we entered into office we found the
basis laid for the most amicable relations with France. I
believe, as I have stated often in this house, that a good
understanding in this country with France is of the great-
est value to the promotion of the happiness of both coun•
tries, and to the peace of Europe. And not with France
alone, because I think a conciliatory policy should 'be
adopted toward all the powers of Europe ; and, as far 'as
I can see, all these powers are disposed so to shape
their conduct as to maintain peace in Europe. Upon
that great question to which the right hon. gentleman has
alluded—namely, the question of Turkey, it is no doubt
most desirable to act with a good understanding with
France. But at the same time I think it is the duty of
this country, disinterested as it is upon this question, to
preserve that attitude which can enable it to give friendly
advice to all those States among whom a difference may
arise; to maintain the kingdom of Turkey from any aggres-
sima, and at the same time to accomplish that by negotia-
tion and by friendly counsel. Sir, that end will, I trust,
be accomplished. The right hon. gentleman has alluded—
and I think most unnecessarily—to speeches that have been
made at the hustings by two of my right hon. colleagues.
Now, I ask, if those speeches raised any doubt in hie mind.
was it not enough for the right hon. gentleman to ask what
were the real intentions of the Government towards France?
What purpose could these allusions answer but that of ex-
citing irritation in the public mind, and thereby producing
a suspicion which might not otherwise have been created?
And yet this is from a right hon. gentleman who in the
early part of his speech declared he had nothing so much at
heart as a cordial understanding between the two countries.
My right hon. friends who have spoken on the hustings
with regard to what they thought of the Government of
France, did so, no doubt, without intending to dist urb in
any way our foreign relations. They had not taken the pre-
caution of consulting their memory in order to mai: e their
speeches, nor had they a commonplace book for the purpose
of noting those speeches. (A laugh.) Incautious, words
may therefore have dropped from them, but I am sure that
nothing was further from their intention than to 'disturb
the good understanding which prevails between this country
and France. (Hear, hear.) While upon this topic I must
allude to the statement of the right hon. gentleman that
the Earl of Aberdeen said nothing more than this—that
foreign politics of this country would be the same as they
had been for the last 30 years. The right hon. gentleman
entirely omitted reference to the fact that Lord Aberdeen
went on to realm some observations which, as he has ne-
glected to give them I will read to the house, as they are
sentiments with which I entirely concur, and contain in
themselves sufficient to make known the general opinions
of the Government with regard to foreign affairs. The
noble lord said, with respect to policy of this country—
ibofleoforromowtnhehoinn:
totS
heut .laornt
aea snl ,
general
at
affairs
interests
adi
tei
esspri reee
peace
te t ose: t
hoaafenbi
Ed. s te, u
raeai
countries,
upo
tevar
esi
ebansym au
" It has been marked by a respect due to all independent
nchasassertpioossn
,s.
na
snu
eeha mmeesathdse saisr ewt (et
r)
esecure
.
ticable and at our disposal. .I do not say that differences may
not have existed, or that sympathies may not have been ex-
cited, on behalf of certain States in their endeavours. to pro-
mote constitutional reforms and to obtain constitutional go-
vernment ; but the principle of our policy had always been
to respect the independence, the entire independence, of
other States, great or small, and not to interfere in their in-
ternal concerns. That will continue to be the case, and I
trust that we shall still retain the friendship and goodwill of
all foreign countries, whatever the nature of their Govern-
ment or Constitution."
That, sir, was a clear announcement of the policy of the
Government, that whatever might be our wishes for the
liberty of other countries, wo should not think it fitting
to interfere with their internal Government or Consti-
tution. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I believe that by so conduct-
ing ourselves, and by maintaining peaceable relations
with foreign Governments, we shall better advance the
civilisation of mankind than by any active interference to
force upon them our own form of institutions. (Hear.)
But the right hon. gentleman went on, and, venturing
upon what I think was somewhat dangerous ground for
him, he said that there was a want of principle in the pre-
sent Government. The present Administration is formed
of men who, in the great contest which was carried on for
ten years, and which was carried on most perseveringly un-
til the beginning of last year by a great party, have agreed
upon the general principles of commerce and finance which
have at length finally triumphed. That was the great
ground of contest during this period, and those who sit in
the present Cabinet have always been found upon the
same side with respect to these questions. But, as to the
right hon. gentleman opposite, after contendinc, from 1842
to 1846 in favour of free trade, and from 184eto 1852 in
favour of protection—(a laugh)—what was the course pur-
sued by his party in 1852 ? First, we had a declaration on
the part of the leader of that party very clearly and de-
cidedly in favour of protection. Then there was the for-
mation of a Ministry in which no man could say what was
the principle adopted. (Hear.) One man represented the
Government as favourable to Protection, another repre-
sented them as favourable to free trade, and the head of
that Government, the Earl of Derby, declared that his
opinion was to be formed not by the study of commerce or
finance—not by the writings of political economists—not
by his own observation, or his own very considerable abi-
lities—but by the votes of 1,000,000 electors in the United
Kingdom, who were to make his opinions, and to form his
policy ; and yet the organ of that Government in the
House of Commons comes forward and twits us now for
being without pribciples in forming a Ministry. (Cheers.)
The fact is, Sir, that that party to which the
right hon. gentleman belongs—and I must again remind
him of it—have gone wrong very much because they would
never take the advice which I ventured to give them. (A
laugh.) In 1841 I told them they never would get any-
thing better than an Bs. duty. They would not accept of
that. In 1845 I told them that if they would take a 6s.
duty and get something taken off the burdens of which they
complained, it would probably be the last time upon which
compact. They would
they could make so advantageous a
if
not hear of it. But in 1849 I told them that they would
th •general '
then give up protection and adhere to . their prin-
ciples with regard to the Crown and with regard to consti-
tuted authority, they would always be a very large and
powerful party,
in this country, having a great influence on
and that they could not
the deliberations of the country, .
t impression upon the councils
fail very soon to makella
theye would not take that advice,
of the Ministry.
Wuld have been Ministers at this hour.
or they probably would
v
would have given up protection in 1849, they would
They
have stood upon their general principles a most compact
d we should not
found them to be last year, an . .
party, as we that discreditable pe-
them having to go through . .
have seen one opinion
of their history, when they turned from .
riod ' themselves for protection on the ,
to another, all declaring
doubtful whether to be for it or
eve of taking office, then
in
favour of a free-trade
last voting in a mass
not, and at
might otherwise have possessed
resolution, whereas they
power both now and foryears to come. I don't know
whether I ought to givesomethem
any more advice—(laughter)
bad use of all that I have before
—they have made such
use at all; but still I would venture
given them, or rather no
offs, without abandoning any prin.
to say, that while out of
by
th rinciples which they have long
eiples, standing firmly p
the moment whether those princi-
held, and not caring at
they yet should not come for-
plea were successful or not,
active in displaying their
ward to make themselves too welfare of
• h makes for the peace and
hostility to that which ma
may depend upon it, al-
the country. (Cheers.)
gentleman thinks the reforms that
though the right hon. _
lid IA and that we ought to
d are not su cie ,
we have propose
r reforms--they maydepend upon
have produced much large.
ne
and
atm
ggles of last year,
it that, after the contentio
oaTess which we propose, the
whatever may be the
y ePra short time at least of peaceable
country
would glaal- see
these great convulsive struggles
progress, without any
convinced that those who say they
of parties ;
and I am
cononditions and that they will be
will not submit to such
tlte
of
thin
'gs, and even will take
restless in the present s . _
inadvertently be dropped
hearses which Easy 'II
advantage of p asiness in our foreign affairs, wi
in order to produce uneasiness
the confidence of the people. (Loud
not gain to themselves
gentleman has alluded to me, and
cheers.) The right hon.
t geresent I have the honour to hold.
to the position which at
O the full conviction which 1en....
I occupy that posit
the desire of the country, that al
tertain that it is really
Whi and another a Conserva-
u maybe a g t a Minis-
hough one ma
divisions ought not to prevent
ttive-Liberal,
Minis-
those
hich shall connect as many men as
try being formed w
agree in their vi p_nciples, and
her ho can tion of the
possible toget
of Ming on the administra .
h t-
who are capable cas_
anything that I can do, in wt a
country. (Cheers.)
:-, fficelr'belonging to the Government
ever capacity A. 0 _
dovernment, in order ems sea
'rrYto
not belonging to the .
to effect, it will be my desire do.
wish of the countryyil I
may mention myself,
raketherearae
(Much, cheering.) 11
i ternal policy upon which I
ti
two questions of n n
other. They are the qups eon_
greater interest than y
of any
people, and. the question. off
of the education
oot
in • the representattieon
a further
amendment
hea.) I cannot be pushed onto either
the people. (Hear,
if
to urge others to bring forward,
rd Illy" , or k are either out
bring forward
subjects which I thin
measure upon those .with
will not be likely to meet a
as t state of the
of time, or are
I believe, in the Profsen .
successful issue. h ul
that and
of that kin s 0 d
.t
desirable
d deliberately introduced.
country, i
isweighed,and carefully an
be fully ve that in adopting the so so sentiments lam
(Hear.) I belie
Dither the great majori y t a this house or
not differing
from
the t 'b te to
people, and if I can con ri. u
the great mass o being prepare& and ultimately
such as those
I contribute anything
measures .
the meantime can
carried, and if in
a Ministry which I believe is formed of
to the stability of
intent upon the good of the country and
men both honestly
into effect wise measures with due
capable of carry
i'ngbe my pride and glory to have done so.
deliberation, it will
(Loud cheers.)
said with reference to the main subject
Mr. COBDEN sal ,
9 tech—the maintenance of
of the right hon.
gentleman's sp
with France—
that was a practical quea-
frienfdly relations
and one upon a
vhich the country just now was deeply
tion,
Tight
rgt hon. gentleman, in opening his
eoncerned • to oho! that he entertained a belief in
remarks, labtp.r ad

press—had been one of great distrust towards the present
Government of France. The right hon. gentleman had said

he did not share in anyapprehension of that sort, butwhen

in power a few months ago, the right hon. gentleman had

proposal a large increase to our arms, and laboured to show

that that increase was not made with reference to the exist-

ing temper of the country towards France, but that it
was a continuation of a system of increase arising out of
the change in the system of steam navigation. Now, he
must csll the right hon. gentleman's attention to the fact,
that the increase in the naval force which he proposed was
not an increase of steam machinery, but one of men, and
the transition from the use of sailing vessels to that of
steamers did not imply the necessity of a larger number of
sailors, but quite the contrary. (Hear, hear.) The right
hon. gentleman, therefore, did but give a sanction to the
feeling oat of doors by the step he had taken, and he must
say too that the present Government, while they preached
of peace with France, and of the good intentions of ,this
country towards it, did not make their conduct correspond
with their professions. Here was the difficulty out of
doors. There was great mistrust out of the house. -Right
hon. gentlemen on both sides said they did not share in
that mistrust, but how did they act ! What were words
spoken in public and lines in a newspaper compared with
the preparation of 12 line-of-battle ships with screws to be
stationed in our Channel, besides a large contingent of
steamers ? (Hear, hear.) These were the things which
really endangered our understanding with France. It was
not the newspaper articles, nor the speeches made, but
these preparations for hostilities, which were calculated
to produce uneasiness in the public mind at home and un-
easiness abroad. The right hon. gentleman expressed his
belief that diplomatic services were of great use gene-
rally, and he had enumerated how, during his short tenure
of office, the ambassadors of this country had succeeded
in preventing a rupture in Switzerland, in arranging the
opening of the navigation of the South American rivers, in
negotiating upon the subject of Cuba, and claimed great
credit for diplomacy that it had been so usefully employed.
fNorow
l y of
ro.mCaoolsden) would suggest a new employment
this country, and one which, if
adopted, would involve a plan upon which they might
uphold a party. Would the Government devote their the he
diplomacy
di-
plomacy to the putting an end to this system of mutual
rivalry ? (Hear.) Could not our ambassadors—if the state
of affairs in Buenos Ayres, or Cuba, or the United States
were such as to require their interference—exchange a com-
munication with the French Government as to their rivalry
in naval preparations now going on ? (Hear.) We paid
very large sums for the support of our diplomatists. Was
it not in their power and within the compass of their ability
to do something in this way to preserve our friendly rela-
tions ? He (Mr. Cobden) would undertake to say that in
five minutes he would frame a note to the French Govern-
ment which would answer the purpose, and in which he
would ask that Government if they were prepared to come
to such an understanding as to agree with us in a reduc-
tion of our warlike preparations. Was there anything im-
practicable in such a proposition ? He had not the least
doubt that such a note would be responded to in a manner
which would totally change the feelings of the two coun-
tries towards each other. (Hear, hear.) It must not be
imagined that the feeling out of doors was such as it had
been assumed to be. Here was an extract from a letter
written a few days ago by a gentleman, "S. G. 0.," who
sometimes signed his name and sometimes his initials.
Speaking with reference to the preparations of the French,
that gentleman said ss--
" When burglars are about we examine the scullery and
cellar windows, we try the fastenings of our doors, hang up
bells to warn us, get dogs and police to watch for us, and go
to bed in confidence that we are so prepared against attack
that few are likely to attempt it."
The writer was speaking of our French neighbours—a na-
tion in many respects as civilised as ourselves, and he
treated them as burglars ! That was the argument ; there
was no other attempted ; the writer made a comparison
between guarding our doors against burglars and repelling
attacks from our French neighbours. Well, but right hon.
gentlemen encouraged all this, because they went on pre-
paring as if they expected those attacks. There was no
Tahiti, no Syrian business in hand now, and yet they con-
tinued preparing. What wonder, then, that people out of
doors should go on arguing in this way ? He did not see
why they should not deal with the present question just
as they would upon a question affecting Cuba, or any other
similar matter. If our diplomatists could adjust matters
in the one case, could they not be trusted with a negotia-
tion which would rid this country of the expense and alarm
consequent upon these continued preparations ? He was
charged sometimes with entertaining fanatical views, but
ho put the present case forward upon the most moderate
and humble grounds. He would put his confidence in any
Government which would attempt such a negotiation as
this. He did not require that they should succeed ; they
would not be accountable for want of success ; but ho did
ask them to try, and not to go on blindly increasing our
forces as they were doing. If they made a poposal to
France in the conciliatory tone of which he had spoken,
seeking to come to an explanation by which these mu-
tually dangerous armaments might be reduced, and if
France did not respond in the same tone —if she
showed any sinister designs, with a view to take us
by surprise and to profit by our security, he would
vote, if necessary, 100,000,0001. sterling to defend
this country against French invasion. But what he
asked was not to go on increasing armaments which
did not alter the relative forces of the two countries. HE,
wanted our statesmen to treat this as an arithmetical ques-
tion, and to remember that, if the naval force of`France
stood to that of this country in the ratio of 5 to 15, and
that if one-third were taken from each, both countries
would still stand in the same relative proportion, and have
the same strength as now. (Hear.) He had a right to ex-
pect this policy from the present Government, because the
Earl of Aberdeen had long said these preparations for war
were the great dangers of peace. The Government, by
these increased armaments, were,. in fact, rising up a
powerful party who had an interest in keeping the country
in a state of constant irritation, only just short of hostili-
ties. Our increased preparations—our 12 line-of-battle
ships in the Channel, and our powerful fleet in the Medi-
terranean—were of course looked upon with great jealousy
elsewhere. The French Government recollected what they
had suffered in previous years from our fleets, and they
felt that a deep responsibility was thrown upon them to
increase their own armaments. The Journal des Debats,
one of the most pacific of the French journals—(hear)—always
favourable to the English alliance and friendly to free trade,
said, upon the 22d of January—
" While the English journals are every day citing, as a
proof of the warlike disposition of our Government, the ex-
traordinary armaments which they allege to be going on in
our ports, and the pretended increase in the number of our
screw steam-ships, we observe that in England they are busily
augmenting their navy, and making considerable additions to
their armaments. We are tempted to believe that the
English press, in declaiming so much about these imaginary
doings in France, have no other object but to divert attention
from the very serious preparations going on in that country."
The tone of our press elicited the following remarks in the
Constitutionnel of Feb. 7 :
" When we see with what miserable gossip the terrors of
the English people are excited, we are astonished that their
good sense can be so easily imposed upon. Nothing is too
absurd with some of their journals for increasing this ludic-
rous panic. The sight of an armed brig in the distance, or
even the appearance of a foreign fishing-boat on the horizon,
is instantly metamorphosed by the invasionist newspapers
into another Armada, and the English people, resolute and
energetic as they are, who with their own unaided strength
could hold their island home against the united forces of the
whole continent, are credulous enough for the moment to be
imposed upon by these hobgoblin stories."
Ho had tried to ascertain whether anything was going on
in France to justify this alarm. The noble lord (J. Russell)
said there was not, and that nothing was done but what
France, as a great maritime power, was entitled to do. But
that statement was totally at variance with what had been
going on for the last two or three month. We were told of
all sorts of surprises that awaited us. A Belfast paper, for
example, gave the following statement from an Edinburgh
correspondent :
" We have received from an Edinburgh correspondent a
letter, dated the 29th ult., in which it is stated that during
the last week a French steamer has been cruising off Berwick,
and every night the men are engaged in taking soundings of
the Tweed, while during the day artists are employed in ma-
king sketches of the coast. Our contemporary adds that this
steamer, having completed its mission at Berwick, has gone to
Newcastle on a similar errand."
Another paragrdph of a like sinister character announced
that Mr. Napier, the eminent ship-builder, had received an
order to build six first-class steam-frigates. Then we saw a
letter from Rome, in which we were told that the French
soldiers there wanted to share the plunder of London upon
the invasion. Now, he never heard any authoritative
contradiction of these rumours. Then there was a rumour
that the Government had been making inquiries of the
railways to know how many troops and how much materiel
could be conveyed to a given point ; and there was a report
that the Government were going to strengthen the forti-
fications at Tilbury Fort. Every Government seemed to
allow these reports to go on without contradiction, and
some of the journals supposed to be in the interest of the
right hon. gentleman and his party were amongst the
worst. They worked up the public feeling, and then the
Government went on increasing our armaments, but pooh-
poohed the press and denounced the journals as incendiaries.
He thought the Government more to blame than the press
for such a course of action. A few weeks ago the Lord-
Lieutenant of the West Riding of Yorkshire (the Earl of
Harewood), when reviewing the militia, made an address
to them, in which he said :
" The time is shortly coming, in my opinion, when every.
body throughout the realm will have cause to be thankful
for your coming forward in defence of their homes, their cons
stitution, and their Queen."
He believed there was a new party to be formed, and that
they wanted a principle. He was not going to speak in a
democratic sense, but it was especially important to the
right hon. gentleman and the party he led that this country
should pursue a course of economy and frugal government.
He did not now speak of free trade, but of the tendency of
the people to emigrate to other countries. That was a
new fact in which those who held the broadest acres
were the most deeply interested. (Cheers.) They had
rivals in other countries—in Canada, in Australia, in
New Zealand, and, above all, in the United States—and
these countries were beginning to absorb our population.
They had seen lately the vast extent to which our popula-
tion could emigrate to other countries, and that, too, at a
time of great prosperity at home. But suppose a reverse
should not take place, He would not allow that things
would be so bad as they had been, but there were causes
which might produce depression and discouragement.
Suppose then a reverse,
,and that we had a vast emigration
to more favoured countries. Suppose that the emigration
should go on to such an extent as materially to lessen the
number of shoulders that had to bear the public burdens.
Who must be left in mortgage for the public burdens ?
The landowners ; and they were the class most interested
in a frugal expenditure. But they went on lavishing
money on the national defences, and spening 15,000,0001.
or 16,000,000/.• a-year for warlike expenditure, and yet
they were calling out that the country was defenceless.
The Federal Government of the United States cost
9,000,0001. a-year, and the State Government 4,000,000/.
so that the Federal and State Government of 24,000,000
of people was carried on, the interest of the debt paid, and
a sinking fund provided, for 13,000,0001• a-year . Austra-
lia and other colonies were without any debt at all, and
almost without taxation, and yet we were going on wast-
ing mu, money as if there was no end to the wealth we
Possessed. The expenditure for warlike purposes was said
to be necessary as an insurance against France ; but, if it
were possible to prevent a portion of this expenditure, we
were not in a position to despise the saving. It was no
ad-
vantage that France was suffering from the same cause,
and that she too was wasting 3,000,000/. or 4,000,0001.
only a
-year in unnecessary war armaments. That was
btof
in-
creasing the evil, and the people not only of France u
Germany would run away to other countnoo unless the old

E LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 19, 185 3.

countries of Europe mended their system. Three years ago
he brought forward a motion recommending negotiations
for international reductions of force. He hoped now, that
if the House would not undertake to recommend the at-
tempt to be made, the country would follow the advice of
Sir R. Peel, and put such a pressure on members as to
bring the matter to an issue. For himself, he would give
his confidence to no Government that would not make the
attempt, and enter into communication with other govern-
ments with the desire of putting a stop to this increase of
armaments. (Hear, hear.)
•- -

Sir J. GRAHAM.—I am extremely sorry that the hon•
member for the West Riding has stated that he would give
his confidence to no Government that would not go to

France and the other powers of Europe and America with
a demand that they should disarm.
Mr. COBDEN had thought he was not liable to misre-
presentation. What he said 'was,. that he would give his

confidence to no Government that would not endeavour to

stop the increase of armaments. He would take his stand
upon the motion which he brought forward three years ago

on this subject.
Sir J. GRAHAM.—Not having referred to the terms of
the hon. gentleman's motion, I take the correction as he

suggests it, and I say that if the Government are not to
enjoy his confidence unless they make a proposal to other
. .

Governments that this disarmament shall take place, anc

promise it on their part, and although I am sere that the
hon. gentleman would write a most excellent note, yet my
opinion is deeply seated that, whatever the excellence of
that note, it would not be attended with the success that
he expects. At all events, when we recollect the slight
occasions which may give rise to unexpected hostilities,
and the effects of such outbreaks, if we are not armed, I

cannot be a party not to make every preparation which the
state of our relations with foreign powers in my humble
judgment may require. (Cheers.) Having said that, I
will add that no member of this house is more attached to
peace and to an economical administration of affairs than
I ever have been and still am. (Hear, hear.) Bit I must
avow, that being a friend of peace, and entertaining an
opinion that it is most desirable that our armaments and
our expenditure should not be pushed to any extreme, and.
that they should be discontinued if possible, I deeply re-
gret the course which the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Dis-
raeli). has pursued. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentle-
man boasts that he is the leader of the largest party in
this house, and I have waited to see if any member of
that large party would rise to sustain the position that he
took, but no one has done so. The right hon. gentleman
has lately' occupied a high position in the councils of his
Sovereign. He knows the delicacy of the question that he
has agitated. lam bound to believe, that in the course he
has taken a spirit of peace is his object, but I think that
he runs great risk of defeatinc, that object. I should not,
however, have risen if he had advertedat great length,
and—with pain I must add—with great bitterness, to
words which he says have fallen from me. The right hon.
gentleman said it was impertinent to suppose that I could
be guilty of an inadvertence, that I speak advisedly, and
after much preparation. The right hon. gentleman is a
great master of words. (A laugh.) I should also say that
he speaks with much previous thought ; and certainly I
should also say not without some preparation. (A
laugh.) And what were the real objects which he
announced at the commencement of his speech, and
what where those , which appeared to be his objects
at the close? I was astonished at the approaches
he began at so great a distance to compass so small an ob-
ject. I was amazed to see histatillery dragged up so high
a hill for so trifling a purpose, and to hear i him begin
with Poictiers and Agincourt, and end with the hust-
ings at Carlisle and the Cloth-hall at Halifax. (A
laugh.) I may be permitted to remind the right hon.
gentleman that even very cautious and able speakers are
sometimes guilty of great inadvertence. This present
Parliament will remember when a Minister of the Crown
and the leader of the House of Commons, had, upon a so-
lemn occasion, the duty imposed upon him of making a
funeral oration on the memory of the Duke of Wellington.
I can conceive no greater occasion on which the ablest
speaker might have premeditated. What was the case?
Our allies had seized the opportunity of sending from
every Court of Furope a representative on that solemn oc-
casion to mark their respect for the memory of that de-
parted hero. The Minister of the Crown and a leader in
this house pronounced the funeral oration to the memory
of the departed duke ; and, if I do not much mistake, in
that speech the representatives of our allies being here as-
' sembled, they were designated as " our scandalous and dis-
comfited allies" in the contest that had taken place, and
this expression, so used, could not, I think, have been al-
together unpremeditated. I think there was another pas-
sage in that speech, that was a branch plucked from the
funeral wreath of a French general, with which the right
hon. gentleman sought to decorate the urn of our illus-
trious commander. The right hon. gentleman, who,
I should say, was an " accustomed" speaker, should
bear this in mind, when he says thst public speakers
never make a slip of the tongue. He should recol-
lect the occasion and the speech to which I have
referred, and exercise some charity to those who at a con-
tested election may have used an unguarded expression.
But am I prepared to admit that the right hon. gentleman
has correctly stated what I said ? He says the press is his
escocheon. I must say that the leaders in the Morning
Herald are also his supporters—(a laugh)—and that his
Standard-bearer is to be found in the evening press. (Con-
tinued laughter.) But I deny the words imputed to me on
the occasion to which he refers. The right hon. gentleman
has asked much about the speech of my right hon. friend
the President of the Board of Control, but he has not asked
me what were the words used by me on the -occasion to
which I have referred, and he has inadvertently ascribed
to me words that I did not use. (Hear.) I never called
the present Emperor of France a despot and a tyrant ;
much less did I call the people of France slaves, or use any
opprobrious expressions with regard to them. I was ad-
dressing a popular assembly. I declared myself friendly
to an extension of the suffrage. I deeply regretted the
bribery and intimidation which I believe had taken place
at the late election. (Hear, hear.) I said I thought we
ought to remember hew groat was the liberty we enjoyed
here in England—that on the whole I did not think that in
any country in the world liberty was more secure than.in
this, and that, although I could not support universal suf-
frage, and doubted whether secret voting would prevent
intimidation and bribery—the two great objects which it
was intended to secure—yet I was desirous that every man
whose station rendered him independent, and not liable to
be led away or seduced—being in my opinion a person well
qualified to have the suffrage—ought to possess it, I went
on to say, " Beware of those who tell you that your liberties
are not secure without universal suffrage and the ballot ;"
and I illustrated that position by saying, " Close to
your shores there is a nation possessing universal suffrage,
and possessing the ballot," but, so far from calling that na-
tion by an opprobrious epithet, or using towards it a con-
tumelious expression, I said—and I have a distinct recol-
lectionithat the words I now use are the words I used then
—I said, " A nation the most polished, a nation celebrated
in arms, in the arts, in literature and in science—the liber-
ties of that people are prostrated under a single man."
These are the words I used on that occasion. (Hear, hear.)
Now, the right hon. gentleman has said that the people
of this country hate coalitions—l think the people of this
country hate misquotations. (Hear, hear.) They love
the truth, and they love to hear the truth spoken. (Hear.)
But if any language used by me is such as to be unworthy
of a British Minister, or such as would be held by this
house to be inconsistent with that character, or with a seat
in this house, then I am not worthy to sit on these benches.
Let the house say so, and I am ready to bow to their deci-
sion. (Hear, hear.) But I must be allowed to say that,
although willing and anxious to maintain the most friendly
relations with France, and though desirous that not one
word should fall from me to excite their enmity, still, if I
am not, either on the hustings or in this nouse, to say that
which my heart dictates, and my mind and conscience dic-
tate, then certainly I am not fit to be a Minister, or to sit
in the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) I am still a
member of a free community—a community that dares to
defend the truth, and loves the truth, and which is still
the guardian of this happy country, which, after all, is the
last refuge of the liberties of Europe. (Cheers.)
Mr. M. GIBSON regretted that the right hon. gentle-
man who had just spoken had not given the slightest inti-
mation that an attempt would be made, in accordance with
what had fallen from his hon. friend the member for the
West Riding, to bring about, in conjunction with France,
a reduction of armaments. He always understood that the
followers of the late Sir R. Peel, while they had no defi-
nite policy, were willing at least to carry out that line of
policy which they believed Sir R. Peel himself would have
carried out had he been alive. Now, in 1841, that states-
man laid down in the House of Commons the very propo-
sition which the hon. member for the West Riding had
alluded to that evening. (The right hon. gentleman here
quoted from a speech of Sir IL Peel in 1841, in which he
contended that the time had come when the powerful
countries of Europe should reduce their military arma-
ments, and be prepared to declare that there was no longer
any necessity for maintaining such enormous establish-
ments, and in which he deprecated the practice of one
country increasing its military and naval force merely be-
cause it was done by another.) The same reasons for re-
ducing the national armaments existed now as then, and
the fact still was, that the nations increased or reduced
their establishments with reference to each other. (Hear.)
Nobody, he believed, denied that systematic endeavours
had been made to alarm the public mind in this country, ,
so as to get a more ready assent to our naval and military
preparations—(hear, hear)—and the only fault he found
with Government hitherto was, that they did not make
use of their high position and authority to put an end to in-
terested and ignorant clamours, and restore equanimity to
the public mind. (Hear.) It was a bottomless pit this in-
crease of defences and of armaments. Who could tell when
they had arrived at the point of secmityand self-defence. Then
in an economical point of view, the question was one that
affected everybody. The emigration that was going on was
becoming a point of great importance to the employers of
labour in this country, and to hon. gentlemen opposite as
well as to others. Their labourers would leave this country
if they refused to develope important branches of industry,
and if they did so, wages in the agricultural districts would
be materially increased, and the difficulties of competing
with foreign grain-growers, said to exist, would be rendered
much greater. He would say, therefore, employ their sur-
plus income over expenditure rather in the repeal of taxes
that affected the employment of labour than in the increase
of our armaments. It was against the unlimited and inde-
finite increase of those armaments that he now spoke. It
was a common ruse to misrepresent the views of economists
on this point, and to say they were for the abolition of all
armaments and in favour of non-resistance. But what they
conceit it o fcontended against was that sort of indefinite arming which
mod
on the
t oinf
g relationssmatterwhich
ehatewepoliticalehne
art md s character,
ugrtnlianhoestet ehr
country
institutions.
0 anddni3
teoi ttiunbt France.wieoahn
sr
on hg
.al (Hear,
was going on, one country rivalling another without any
tplreonaspaenctolofr.aprriisrvinaelgi)ahtaadcionntcroludsuiocend.
inntoehirisgshpteeheehoalinpvap.egyrigieenoaigri
encourage
en-
tirelyshouldabgeregeodvewirntehd.tho(Hseewarh,ohcenmoaara.d:eem:litturtenwdetryactshwtehaeus use
(Hear.)
Friar
eteaoar
nac l
irri-
tating language towards Francsem,eannpdinthatoesaedcglooiiiistant
eelha:
wanted salso
that
ta ot
ggnetting
our domestic liberties hpEHreneoaggr wishedlp.ics hromsuoesnmutenhtlahwetasestnEittthnsgeeoylnifjsabohrye leaisdest vat
Eteoedai e a r ;
heatedforeign scountries
on tyranny
nhya vaebtrhoead7wgohluiesiandrr.r)
Ho
Pinwafyoroefi
a see
m feelingore forattention liberty aptaihome.
d to
countries,f?pularity to
iatgmainigehttdbeeepaotcita rties ; and,
though
inveigh
con-
fessed he would rather see men advocating he
and showing to foreign countries that liberty at home,
confidence in our own people to give themve had sufficient
they were entitled to—a course that all the rights
liberty abroad than all the speech would do more for
(Hear, hear.) Ho had observed, however,
that could be made.
were most ardent on the platformowever, that those who
liberty abroad were exceedingly i ' lin declaiming about
proposal to give the people liberty timid when there was any
it was somewhat disingen at home. He thought
about France and other -jeto press these arguments
counras arguments against the

adoption of the ballot in this country. (Hear, hear.) The
right hon. gentleman had chosen to insinuate that we had
a Conservative Government and a Conservative Opposition;
and that those who were called Radicals had merged into a
species of Conservatism. He could only say for himself
that he never was a party man, entering into combinations
to oppose or support any existing Government, and he
should decline to express any opinion on the present Ad-
ministration till he saw their measures of reform. If it
was true that four hours of a Cabinet Council were occu-
pied on the Turkish Empire, all he would say was that he
thought they would have been better employed in consi-
dering the provisions of the Reform Bill. (Hear, hear.)
Though he admitted there were reasons for postponement,
he could have wished to see a measure of reform submitted
to the house during the present session, in order that it
might have been considered by the country previous
to being brought forward for legislation in the Par-
liament of 1854. (Hear, hear.) He gave credit to the
Government for good intentions with respect to the mea-
sure of reform, and he was sure they would not bring in
any measure on such a subject that would not be of a com-
prehensive character, calculated to settle that question for
at least some fair period of time. (Hear.) And he did
hope that the Government, having, as they had heard, so
much approved the freedom of the press, would not forget
that, though we did enjoy considerable freedom in this
country in reference to our newspapers and public press,
we fell far short, nevertheless, of entire and absolute free-
dom. He hoped that the somewhat heated expressions of
feeling with reference to the liberty of the press might be
taken as indications on the part of the Government that
they would emancipate the press in this country, untax it,
and give the people the advantage of a full, free, and cheap
dissemination of knowledge. (Hear.) He was sanguine
that the Government would adopt that as part of their
policy, because they had expressed themselves favourable
to the cause of education, and he knew no agency so fa-
vourable to education as a cheap press, diffusingc, through
all classes of the community cheap information. In conclu-
sion, he would observe, that though the right hon. gentle-
man (Mr. Disraeli) might say they had a Conservative Go-
vernment and a Conservative Opposition, he would find
the Liberal party and the liberal feeling of the country
truly represented, and that the Liberal members of that
house would be true to their principles, though they would
not embark in any needless or vexatious proceedings.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BAILLIE said thattheihouse was now met for the
purpose of voting away the public money, and a fair oppor-
tunity consequently arose of obtaining information as to
the opinions of the Cabinet on many most important ques-
tions. After alluding to the sentiments expressed by dif-
ferent members of the Government on the subject of Par-
liamentary Reform and the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill, he
said that he believed that it would require more than all the
high character of the associates of the late Sir Robert Peel
to convince the people of this country that the coalition
which they had now formed had not been effected at the
sacrifice of those principles which Sir Robert Peel uni-
formly advocated.
Lord D. STUART said that he felt indebted to the right
hon. gentlemen who had occasioned this debate, inasmuch
as it called forth from both sides of the house expressions
of the most earnest desire to continue on good terms with
the Government and nation of France. (Hear, hear.)
With respect to the comments made by the public press on
what took place in neighbouring countries, he believed that
the press would abdicate its high functions if it were not to
adopt such a course, and he had always thought that the
censures directed against it by the noble lord the Secretary,
for Foreign Affairs and others were uncalled for. He con-
curred in the opinion expressed by the noble lord the Sec-
retary for Foreign Affairs, that, although the French people
might have surrendered their liberties for a time, yet that,
enlightened as they were, they would not long suffer them.
selves to be deprived of their institutions, without the full
enjoyment of which he believed no nation could long con-
tinue to be happy and prosperous.
Mr. HUME thought that the house was about to pro-
ceed in voting the estimates upon a rule contrary to com-
mon sense. The were about to vote six or seven millions
fur navy expenses, and he contended that the house ought
first to know by what means that sum was to be paid.
He recollected" that when the right hon. gentleman the
member for Buckingham proposed to go into committee
on the tea duties the present Chancellor of the Exchequer
told him that he could not reduce one single farthing of
taxation until they knew whether they had the means of
supporting that reduction of taxation. Now the income
tax would expire in April next, and it was desirable to
know before voting the estimates what the Government
meant to do with reference to the renewal or discontinu-
ance of that tax. There was now a surplus of 2,500,000/. ;
but if the income tax were allowed to expire, there would
be a deficiency of upwards of 3,000,0001. Under these
circumstances, he wished to know why the house should
not act upon the principle which the right honourable
gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had himself
laid down, no longer ago than last December, when the
right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) was propos-
ing to go into committee upon the tea duties. Mr. Glad-
stone then said :
" I wish to call the attention of the house to a subject
which appears to be of the utmost importance, of constitu-
tional importance. We are going to make provision for the
financial year that commences on the sth of April, 1853.
Now, when we are considering the provision for that year,
the first thing which necessarily strikes the mind of every
man is, that on the sth of April the income tax, from which
we derive more than one-tenth of our gross revenue, will
have ceased, legally to exist ; and I put it strongly to the
house and to the Government, that the first duty of this house
in reference to the provision for that year must necessarily be
to consider what course we are to purse with regard to the
income tax."
Now what was good for the goose was also good for the
gander ; and what the right hon. gentleman the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer) insisted at that time ought to be done
by the late Government, he was now bound to do himself.
(Hear.) But the right hon. gentleman added :
Even were there no other question as to the income tax than
that of its continuance, I should say that the duty of the
house, in the discharge of its great functions, tho providing
the ways and means for the public service, is to proceed to
consider the question of the continuance of the income tax,
before it deals with any minor question whatever."
The noble lord the Foreign Secretary also took the same
view, for he said—
" I think that there is great force in what the right hon.
gentleman the member for the University of Oxford (Mr.
Gladstone) said as to the necessity of taking both the income
tam and the house tax, before we are asked to concur in any
resolution with respect to the relief of taxes."
Nor was this all ' for the right hon. baronet the President
of the Board of Control (Sir Charles Wood) said •it was
essential for the safety of the public credit that this course
should bo taken. Thus three great authorities wore then
in favour of the course which he (Mr. Hume) recommended.
It vas a question of the utmost importance to the country
how the income tax was to be levied. They ought to have
some information upon this subject, but most certainly the
house ought not to be called upon to vote any money until
they were informed whether it was intended to continue
the income tax or not. The Government themselves had,
when on the other side of the house, stated their opinion
that they saw no possibility of altering the income tax, yet
now they refused to say anything more about it than that
it would be brought on. after Easter—that was not until
after the tax had expired. If no answer was given to his
question, he should take the sense of the house upon it.
He begged to move that the debate be adjourned.
Lord PALMERSTON hoped the hon. gentleman would
not press his motion to a division. His right hon. friend
the Chancellor of the Exchequer hat]. already stated that
the time must shortly come when he must make his finan-
cial statement, and then it would be his duty to state what
were the intentions of the Government with respect to the
income tax.
Mr. HUME was perfectly aware of the anomalous situa-
tion in which the Government was placed, but the house
had been told by the Government that the income tam;
to be renewed, and that it could not be altered. He-
thought, therefore, he was justified in moving that the
debate be adjourned.
The SPEAKER said the hon. member could not move
the adjournment of the debate ; he must move that the
Committee of Supply be postponed.
Mr. HUME said he objected to going into committee
now, and would therefore move that it be postponed for a
week.
The house divided'
For the original motion (that the Speaker
leave the chair) 164
Against it
—136
Majority
The house then went into
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that in laying on the table
of the house the estimates for the ensuing year, he was
happy to say that he was able to ask the committee to as-
sent to a vote which did not propose any increase either in
the force of seamen or of iaarines. That vote he now pro-
posed exactly upon the ground on which the supplemental
vote was proposed to the house in November last. Tho
principles then stated by her Majesty's late advisers in
proposing that estimate were the precise grounds upon
which he recommended to the house, for the ensuing Iv- aron
the maintenance of the exact force then proposed. It ewa;
not recommended by him to the house upon any ground
approaching to that of a hostile or distrustful character
towards any foreign power whatever. He pressed the vote
upon grounds which were not new to the Parliament of
this country, but which had been sustained by the reports
of two committees to which the question of the estimates
had been referred. If the house would allow him he
would refer, first of all, to the report of the finance com-
mittee appointed in the year 1828, and subsequently to the
report of the committee over which his noble friend the
member for Totnes (Lord Seymour.) presided in the year
1848. The report of the finance committee of 1828 used
words to this effect :—That it was their opinion that the
establishments of this country
with reference to the unusual should be regulated, not
circumstances of the late
war, or the probability of being agam. called upon to make
a similar exertion, but rather with
reference to the policy
I of maintaining our defences, and relying upon our navy
for protection against foreign invasion and for the
security of our commerce. The reporti of the corn-
naittee of 1848 adhered to thatcy, and we had
acted upon it up to the present time.r* This policy, they,
stated, would be admitted to be most congenial to the ha-
bits and feelings of our countrymen, who hnaadvfalor a length
of time been accustomed to look upon
the right arm of our strength,power as
national independence. ow, that the great support of our
committees of that house, made at awlong
t the
interval opinion o
of
o f
time,twe
asserted in the strongest terms by the finance committee of
1828, and subsequently adopted by the committee over
which his noble friend had presided. It had been well
ascertained with respect to the navy, and still more with
respect to the other branch of our defences, that the num-
ber of men ruled the amount of the money voted on all the
other branches of these estimates ; and assuming that the
circumstances of the present moment were the same as
those which induced her Majesty's late advisers in Novem-
ber to propose an increase of 5,000 seamen and 1,500 ma-
rines to the force voted in the earlier part of last year—
assuming theie circumstances to be the same, he thought,
also, he was right in assuming that this house, retaining its
opinion that they were right when they voted the increase
in November, would not now be prepared to reverse that
decision. (Hear, hear.) Taking that assumption, there-
fore, as the fact, and he believed it was not adverse to the
opinion expressed by the house on former occasions, he (Sir
J. Graham) would next revert to the several items which
went to form the estimate that he should proceed to lay be-
fore them. The increase of the whole estimate, as compared
with the estimate of the last year, the supplimentaiy esti-
mate taken in November inclusive, amounted to 459,0001.,
the increase being 299,0001. That sum waslmade up of the
following items—viz , 191,0001. increase in the vote for
the pay of the seamen and marines ; 70,000/. increaso on
the vote for victuals ; and 140,0001. increase on the vote
for naval stores of every description. And at this point
he would do justice to his right lion. friend the member

d

• .• is
for Portsmouth, who proceeded hie/ (Elir Graha?)eri
the office which he then held. His right Non. frient,:. tb'
IT
he had been members of the committee in 134:8, and
had generally concurred in opinion on the subjc.et in
st
tion, but he (Sir J. Graham) was not aware until e
to the Admiralty how much had been effec:oa „4,7,11
his right hon. friena in carrying into practical opell‘l'„,00
the recommendations of that committee. (Hear.)
house was then about to vote for the payment and vier ,
ling of 45,500 seamen and marines.. In 1847-8, when
Sir
J. Graham's) right hon. friend was in office—or rat her
the year preceding—the sum voted for the navy estimat
including the Post-office packet service, was 5,06°,00C'c la
the number of seamen and marines voted on that occasl. e
being 41, ,F
500. The sum then voted was, exclusive of
packet service, 950,0001. But yet the present vote was .
45,500 men, or 4,000 more than that vote, and the savinge
to the country on the year would nearly anloTeh.e.aotl.
million. His right hon. friend had stated, and s" to
truly, on a former occasion, that he had endeavoured
do as much as he could, in conformity with the recomnen_.
dations of the committee, but that he had received Ce",..
little credit for his efforts. He (Sir J. Graham) felt haPll.
on the present occasion to bear testimony to the efficacYo°.o,
those efforts. He was bound, also, in justice to his Tthe
immediate predecessor in office, to state that Ile folinuder,
or
naval department in all its branches in admirable
the storesfull, the requisite arrangements made, Andkeerbe
thing in a state of completeness or activity. Her as- nd.
house, therefore, not to vote any additional me.i
No-
the number taken in the supplementary vote of last
vote
vember, but simply to continue the number in a a41.,e
for the year. It was due to his predecessors to state alL,e,
facts reflecting credit on their administration of the 4.:us"
which had come to his knowledge. The greater por4onil
the savings that had been made was effected on the 'e de.
departments of the navy, leaving thus the militaryl,sir
partment unimpaired' in point of efficiency. Ile 101
J. Graham) had thought it possible to effect even .0w
greater reductions in that department, and even nO,
he did not at all despair on that point. But the h.,°,eca
would bear in mind that the force of the navy had "
increased 6,500 men without any additional expense, .5,,ed.
that a great economical arrangement will have been effeG.,,,,,aa
The increase in the pay of the men, namely, 193,00 a, "As,
entirely on the number of additional men voted.
regarded the increase of 70,0001. on the vote for victuall7
and provisioning the navy, he had to state, in explanati
0..
that almost every article which entered into the consuni,l7lo
tion of the sailor had risen, as compared with the last tAo.
0;b
years, say 1851-52, fully 10 per cent, at the least, in the .?„.,
of each article. The only other vote before him was -1-..„
10, in the cost of building, repairs of ships and stearn.eroi,
and for the stores and other principal articles providea, ere,
the naval dockyards of the country. In that vote ttr_ro,
was, as he had stated, an increase of 140,000:. • but !lls it,
was also an increase on the price of all the articles which
included of a proportionate character, which went satisbad
torily to account for it. For example, English oak
risen in price 3 per cent., hemp had risen 9i per coat, t,
per 24 per cent., iron 12 per cent., chain cables 17 per cen_,f
copper and brass articles 20 per cent., and pig iron 60 FF-0
cent. But there was also one other cause for the incres:be
in the amount of this vote, which he should state to
house. In the supplemental estimate of the last Govern,
ment there was a vote of 100,0001. for steam maehinei
Without entering into any undue rivalry with forett
powers on the point, it was absolutely
maintenance, he would not say of the supremacy, hut o,lite",
necessary for,lt7o
position of this country, that those great changes aned,_:et
prove-meats in steam navigation which were daily!,
place should not be neglected. In France, in Russla,;ol,
in America, great progress was making in the
apPllc
of steam to navigation and in the perfection of stes-20.0.-_
chinery for that purpose ; and it was requisite, there
that there should be provision for changing and repai-70
as well as replacing steam machinery in the navy, at v,if
least expense. A provision had been made, as he had alre
i;
_Lb
stated, for this purpose, in the supplementary vote of t7,-,
year, but it had been found necessary by her Iria.leUl,
Government to increase the amount of 1-4°,'o;g,
by a sum of 100,0001. The whole increase then, in Sr •o¢
amounted, as he had said, to 400,000/. ; the redu°''ibe
amounted to about 60,0001. Of this the reduction tat its
scientific branch might be estimated at 15,0001. ; th°
the half-pay (naval), 24,000/. ,• that in the military ljnel,
pay, 20,000/. ; and that in the civil department 9,
With respect to the scientific branch, the cost of the ;,`',l
drographer's department in respect to naval survey's ;00
been increasing for years ; but as there was a large ar"-
of
of these surveys at present unpublished, in cmsequenetetbe
the care and attention of the able officer at the head °,". ent
department, and his anxiety to revise every one of i_"bt'
personally, he (Sir J. Graham) therefore had tholig,il! etS
would be perfectly consistent with nautical ofieliirl
that the surveying department of the present year s.°° roe
be restricted until that arrear was reduced. In the saw
branch—the hydrographic—was now placed the 1,-.,ra be
department ; the Admiralty deeming that it won, trot
more effectually administered if placed under the elt it
of the hydrographer. He (Sir J. Graham) thoug.'4 of
right, however, to ask the vote for six months blot°
for twelve, in order that there might be an opportilla
for making the necessary arrangements. If he remained. if
office he would give the subject his best attention, 00,1,1
he did not he was still satisfied that his successors ohere
find its adoption of advantage to the public service•„-`, ia
was also a small saving arising out of an alteral'° Seri
another department connected with this branch of the thee
vice—namely, in the adjustment of compasses o°,ol
saving would accrue from a fresh arrangement with TeNbs
to the school in Portsmouth Dockyard, established for of
education of naval apprentices in the.higher branebrost
nautical science. It had been found that this schocutio
the country 1,2001. a-year, while only four apPreneu
attended it ; this he considered too great a cost fortle
small number. There was a highly educated geetgisb.
an excellent mathematician, at the head of this est°obool,
ment, and as it was proposed to suppress the oa_volit,
it had been deemed right to enter into an arrane'
ge
by which his services would be made available;
was, therefore, to take the charge in chief of all testeruuuse
yard schools • and as it was decided that a still grsde ot.
should be made' of the Greenwich school than was In_ noes
present, namely, to supply schoolmasters for t,ii.eutad
be
service, it was intended that this gentleman snmasterS'
called upon to decide on the qualifications of thgle educa•
Further it was doubted whether the eeturns° as mid'
tion received by the young gentl. yefrii° seedl • vesti•
ehipmen on board of men-of-war were ufficrently
gated ; and it was therefore that they
laid hereafter before this • should be
gentlemen, and
that he saheoure
have the power of supervision over the eporto fJI
coterTintygs,
hofowthoevevrari,
thoeushsocushooe loimiagehtet
rs.
rest Tirla
se; üßr:dax,
in
disposed to effect any-saving in
the branch in ques,atiell
consistent with the promotion and progress of nun-Aire'
both on shipboard and in the dockyards under their.- the
tion. The other savings arose from the diminution
„I,
military pensions, caused by death, without any ens'
pointments. It was the same with the civil _ le;
Though the reductions that were made, and nini‘ix'.lo';
to superannuation, the charge upon the whole fund °OO
be found to be in a state of progressive diminution. ens on
(Sir J. Graham) knew not if any further explanstiSt t°
his part were necessary. Perhaps, however, he,oll.Che
state that no new works were contemplated, witll.,,torifc
ception of one vote for the construction of steam--utoom;
at Keyham. (as the right hon. gentleman was unders,;et'
He had deemed it to be his duty to institute the stl'oren'
inquiries into this subject, and he had accordinglYo s%.
moned a committee, composed of some of the Inowirosi
perienced officers in the steam-packet service, to oil
were adjoined the surveyor of the navy a 'al° 1°
n ahe tel
intendent of the dockyard at Plymouth an t„‘
put to them the question how 70,0001. could be best
most advantageously expended in rendering th they "sci
works of that natureavailable. It apared. thatdis,o
only one great naval power which was employed ePebliPl
t 5 14
a larg
e sum of money upon an increase of these esoe
meats—namely, the United States of America-
or the
in his hand the report of the Secretary of the N•s"..h., 10°1
United States in 1852-53, allthe propositions inw;:abef.(4
of a marked character. The first related to the 13nost
naval cadets to be admitted each year. By a
provision tne committee of the House of Conaln°ll.-eh
commended that only 100 should be admitted ea the 11 i
and his right hon. friend the member for Portsnaool,.,l
not only rigidly complied with this recomraendaiijrnilThOnol,
had even reduced the number from 100 to 75. ,fi
States admitted only 62, the difference being 1-0* „ionee"
recommendation in that report was equally reliad
By a vote of Congress corporal punishment alp,
abolished in the United States navy • but the svi th.,‘„,s se
pline of the service was found to be so relaxed, an to • • A i 0
arising from that relaxation was fount`
great, that the opinion of the sailors themselves l'Aeris in
unanimous for the restoration of that form of Pn°,sges re'
This recommendation was one of the strongest In-
the report. Hear.) The next recommendation fo,Gtollhe
port was in favour of the establishment of stean",:g, 0.04
[The right hon. baronet read the passage, whichh'i; eri that
effect that this mode of supplying steam in d„ e.4„,011
more economical ; that it ensured better wen' re 01;rert
it rendered the adoption of improvements ni,°
as well as more certain.] He (Sir J. GrahainP„,o
felt bound to state that he differed in of
from this conclusion ; for while he had been alw'sssf"ifth
nion that such establishments were absolutely Dela essiiito
effecting
•I'
alterations and repairs, he had alsol`e was(100
large new works should be done by contract• ejoeth
satisfied that the factories in existence at Ports .nlit 03,
Plymouth were requisite for reparations that inltiee
quired in steam machinery, but with regara:4oo tr A'
works of an extensive character, he was of °ply
o°n
of
Should. always be done as much as possibie by e° 0
of 'Oa
present the most expensive part of the macbin,u:..arda.,,ova;
ships—the boilers—were made in the Queen ;0.01.1'"0-se ();
had given directions for obtaining the cost °- Oreef thf
facture, debiting each with a fair share of tbeofoo
the yard, the officers, and plant, and in the
present year he should be able to ascertain the ‘L ~„,,A.4, pre
cost between these and those made under cont:B- r.,:;;;teq
Secretary of the Treasury of the United Stec of s ians/1.
posed an increase for this year in the nums
r_4o-oe,
but not so large an increase in the number a, 'tile
proposed to make here. Then with respect to doeiT
tion for increased cost of our dockyards. -ifitteeo v'oo
it would be recollected, were large and n",.„ illef A 0 o',
without any undue jealousy there might bied,7o,l6lol'oer;
the expense. The area of the five princiPs' of Sh; ll*
comparatively small. The superficial areain.elre pcsj
Pon" ther esgu-
Chatham, Portsmouth, Plymouth, and o lig;
than the area of Cherbourg. There was the i° brio
which he must avert to—it had relation ;00,1 ifilierso,
vote for the packet service. It was_ pail' 7.1,4ies _ee•
this service under notice at the time the t joioi e.aa
were proposed. There were generally grtco aricitir,,,3,
tertained. at any increase to the naval 0617 1„,:i beeare,ol;oo
tainly felt surprised at the large sum whien,,,g to ?„,res,ol.,
in the previous estimates, that sum amoin;_ur,ot
gas Government, however, had. thought it rigu.,`;eet is
to bring forward that estimate until the slit"Jitteearro,
gone carefulinvestigation. There was a comet beat cp";,.
to investigate the expenditure of partilerred.
.neriblv•
that committee the question had been re ter-G,ejr P-ef
mittee was presided over by the Postures , to, •
slated by the hon. member for Hertford, anuciei 9-:;i0
ley, an experienced gentleman, who waa,u'u,cheellishnitie)
diato direction of the Chancellor of the .r-1 „tab opt er
whole question of the Post-office and Pack it wasie.(lll,ol,
was under the view of that committee ; vote
intention of Government to bring forward wropo,re°,,er.;o
tion until the re h •ttee was I) his
port of t e commi core
the house would recollect there was almaeilier co'reire ' der
fact before it—that of the report of " freers. frir,
composed of two naval and two artilleil° fined
vote for the packet service had been de?."l of c 4,10" co'
the double supposition that further fee be p tbe Pee*
t for 01/1
cation with our remote colonies oughtold r
the aid of steam, and this was one gr°_ wroth: reeii.e.o
posed large increase. But there Iviaelic to of atthe
which he was sorry to say was notes ~ even oe
fs .thee g
It was believed that these packe_
_.,ose_. ~1011
would. be available for belligerent nl`bat °„rel
Pey 'on 60
question had been decided by o°L' ndual ee
to the co 0, 00
naval officers, who had come were 13 tv;:ir 0
expectations were fallacious. to 'state if
70 packets, but only 16 could be C" ,A.ng the
carefreeee
at a considerable expense. This meat veil that groteo
case, it became the duty of Gr°ve tapees. 01:4 ;Pi
reconsider the whole of the circuras tre
to.
14 would not ;low alai fia the VQ