The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-05 00:00:00

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seder in F*Ce to be present at the presentation. He re-
vied thOit was not intended to give such an instruction,
and accordingly the ambassador was not present. As far
as he (Lord Clarendon) had heard, that declaration of
opinion had produced a good impression in France. If he
had been asked whether he thought that such a declaration
should have been carried further, he should have saidno.
It simply referred to the good understanding—the cordial
understanding—between the two countries, about which
there could be no doubt, and as he believed there was no
doubt on the part of the French people as to the feelings
of the English nation towards them, such an allusion was
correct. He concurred in thinking it inexpedient that
this declaration should be considered a national declara-
tion, but could not recognise the parallel of his noble
and learned friend between the present deputation and
that which proceeded to Franch in 1848. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH thought that this
was a matter of considerable importance. He quite
agreed with all that had fallen from the noble and
learned lord except the complimentary terms in which
he had spoken of these individuals. For himself, he
looked upon the transaction with no feelings but those
of disgust ; and as they had from the very highest autho-
rity that these persons had been guilty of a grave
offence, he hoped that if they came before the noble and
learned lord in his judicial capacity, his sentence would
be divested of all comp'imen tarp terms.
The Earl of MALMESBURY said, he could not
allow the present conversation to close without offering
one remark on what had fallen from the noble and learned
lord. The noble and learned lord, although he professed
not to consider these gentlAnen as actuated by any but
the most patriotic motives, had yet hinted at others.
Lord CAMPBELL—I said such might be the case if
this proceeding were made a precedent.
The Earl of MALMESBURY (in continuation) had
of course intended to refer to the remarks of the noble
and learned lord with respect to the funds. It was im-
possible to misunderstand the meaning of such observa-
tions. (Hear, hear.)
Lord CAMPBELL said he had acquitted the deputa-
tion of all improper motives, and had simply pointed out
the danger of making the present transaction an example.
If this affair were passed over in silence, other deputa-
tions might proceed to France with other objects.
The Earl of MALMESBURY (in continuation) was
glad to hear that the noble and learned lord did not in-
tend to throw out any insinuation against those who had
signed the declaration in question. (Hear, hear.) He
(the Earl of Malmesbury) regretted that the address should
have proceeded through a non-official channel, and
doubted its necessity ; but, as it had been presenter; he
was glad to be able to bear personal testimony to the
effect it had produced in France. He was accidentally
in Paris when the address was presented, and persons
had expressed to him the great pleasure which such a de-
claration of opinion had produced. There was not the
most distant idea in France of such an address being
considered derogatory by the English people. Some
persons might think so in this country, but, in justice to
the Emperor and his ministers, he must say, that on
their pirts;there was not the most remote sign of such
a feeling. They felt gratification at what they considered
to be a sign that the population of this country, and
especially of this great city, were anxious to continue
our peaceful relations with France. Ido not (continued
the noble earl) defend the act ; but I say, as it has been
committed—and in these days people are not to be
ruled arbitrarily, and will act for themselves and speak
for themselves---I can hardly congratulate the house
upon the noble and learned lord having brought the
subject forward, because no harm, but rather good, has
resulted from it, and I do not see that any harm or dan-
ger could have resulted from this rash, though success-
, ful, proceeding. (Hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH presumed then that
the noble earl would have sanctioned the proceedings
had he remained in office ?
The Earl of MALMESBURY—On the contrary.
particularly said that if I had been in the place of th
' noble earl opposite (Clarendon), I should have given the
same advice which the noble earl gave, and have care-
fully refrained from approving the proceeding. (Hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH apologised, as not
having heard the observation.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he hoped that his
noble and learned friend the Lord Chief Justice did not
mean it to go forth upon his high authority that such a
proceeding was necessarily illegal. (Hear.) The prece-
dent might possibly lead to consequences it would be
difficult to deal with, and perhaps to illegal consequences;
but it would be extremely dangerous to lay it down as a.
principle that every such proceeding was necessary ille-
gal. (Hear.) It had been the most common thing in
the world that addresses should be presented to foreign
Sovereigni--perhaps merely as matters of courtesy ; but
still all such addresses would be illegal if the noble and
learned lord was correct. He could not but recollect
that when he was in the south of France last autumn,
he saw several members of their lordships' and of the
other house of Parliament npon a deputation to
the Grand Duke of Tuscany, to induce him to
interfere in respect to certain of his subjects. It might
be that this was illegal ; but, although agreeing with
his nhble and learned that these proceedings were much
to be deprecated, and were calculated to lead to great
difficulties, he hoped that it would not be understood
that they were necessarily illegal, or subjecting the
parties to a criminal prosecution.
Lord CAMPBELL said he aid not mean that such
, proceedings were illegal in that sense, so that the parties
could be indicted and arraigned. `He ,did not say that,
tilt could I.e the case unless there were some maim
ane,MUS. But ho maintained that such proceedings wei e
illegal in this sense, that the law did not sanction them,
and that a member of Parliament might be inmea,eltpa
for such conduct. The deputation to the Grand Duke
of Tuscany was to influence him to release persons im-
prisoned for religious opinions, and no doubt that was
not illegal, for it was not really international. Bat
that which related to peace and war between the two
countries was national, and any English subject inter-
fering on such a subject, and pretending to represent
the British nation to any foreign power, did what was
undoubtedly illegal.

VACCINATION EXTENSION BILL.
Lord LYTTLETON moved the second reading of
the bill.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH observed that the
bill imposed penalties upon neglect to vaccinate, but
extended no new facilities.
Lord LYTTLETON was not aware that any were
wanted ; if they were he would be happy to introduce
them.
The bill was read a second time.
ELECTION INQUIRIES.
The Earl of ABERDEEN said, that on Monday,
upon the evidence of the Canterbury election com-
mittee, he should move that an address to the Crown be
presented.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

- " Like you I desire peace ; and, to make it sure, I wish,
like you, to draw closer the bonds which unite our two
countries."
These (continued the noble and learned lord) were most HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
gratifying sentiments, but, nevertheless, wholly irregu-
lar, if uttered without the authority of the home govern-
ment. He was not disposed to blame the parties, who, Lord J. RUSSELL—I have now, in pursance of the no-
no doubt, were ignorant that they were acting wrongly. Lice I have given, to state generally the intentions of the
But consider the danger to which the country might be government with regard to the impoitant subject of odu-
exposed by allowing this proceeding to become a prece- cation ; and in so doing I certainly shall not think it neces-
dent. Suppose for instance, there were a party in this sary to ask for the attention-of the house, because lam
country who, disapproving of the policy of the French
government, agreed to a declaration, and presented an sure that, however inadequately I may perform the duty
address, praying that such policy should be changed. which lam called on to undertake, the subject is one of
Suppose, instead of the person addressed being Napoleon so much importance, and affects so deeply the religion, the
111., it was a red republican government. There might, morality, and the future well being of the country, that
according to the example now set, be a deputation of this house will readily give their attention to any state-
Socialists, Chartists, or United Irishmen, to such a go- ments which may be made, and to any propositions that
vernment, asking for fraternisation. His noble friend (Lord may be brought forward by the Government upon a sub-
Clarendon) had once presided over the sister island, and ject of this nature. (Hear, hear.) I will begin by stating
could not fail to remember the alarm which day by day what has been the course with respect to the education of
was felt by reason of these deputations, particularly by the poorer classes of this country from the commencement
the deputation which went to France headed by Smith
day-
O'Brien. Surely that was considered an alarming circum- of the establishment of public day-schools. These
schools were generally commenced soon after the beginning
stance by the ELiglishGovernment,
.If...t_l2o..ncoiniledtuleie.
__.„„1„„„,,,„,„,,,,
--24e-b1x..4 4A..0 two persons who had
rieveaTlTe gentlemen in the present case to have acted both given very great attention to the subject of educa-
with good motives, and to have erred from inadvertence, tion, and who are both deserving of commemoration for
They were no doubt anxious to express their desire that their intelligence, and the laudable efforts they made in
the two countries should be drawn closer together in the that cause—l mean Joseph Lancaster and Dr. Bell—were
bonds of peace and amity ; but different objects might instrumental in introducing a large establishment of day-
have been entertained. It might have been desired to
raise the funds by such a proceeding, or to depress them. schools for the education of the poorer Glasser in this coun-
try. Both of them proceeded on the system of having
But without further observation he would proceed to ask
-
. monitors in the schools—chosen from among the boys at-
the question of which he had given notice, simply as tending
d'ne those schools by
whom lessons should be given to
curing his noble friend that he desired to give offence in
no quarter, and that if he thought his question would the children who were not sufficiently advanced to obtain
even infinitesimally disturb the good feeling which sub- the entire attention of the masters. It was believed, and
sisted between the two countries he would not put it. it was certainly a matter of fact, that by this means a
But, considering the high office which he (Lord Camp- larger number of children would be educated cheaply than
bell) held in the country, and that in that respect he was could have been done by the method of having a great
a guardian over its laws, he begged to be permitted to number of schools each with separate masters. But no
ask his noble friend whether the deputation of merchants doubt that system was exceedingly defective, because it
who were - stated to have recently proceeded to France only used the instrumentality of persons who themselves
with an address were sanctioned in what they did by her
Majesty's Ministers ? were little addvanedcedinitnellligeaernntinmg,anNrivhero
thathad np
persons
rspoe
nc us l ida
de
-
aptitude for teaching, and who could not give instruction
Lord CLARENDON (who, with the other noble
i
lords who joined in this conversation, was imperfectly
vnotethde
tr:pitho
object of instruction were capable of
a
heard) said, he could not help thinking that his noble
and learned friend had attached to his question more doing. (Hear, hear, hear.) There was a difference
pursuant to the advice of these
importance than it deserved. Certainly, when the noble upon a topic of a most exciting nature in the systems
Society,,iestablished in 1805,
and learned lord had the goodness to give him notice of which were adopted
this question, he (Lord Clarendon) had not expected he two gentlemen. ,The system of Joseph Lancaster was
adopted by a societ
would have come prepared with high legal and parlia-
mentary authorities in support of his position, or that y called the British and Foreign School
which proceeded on the prin-
he would have gone back to transactions which had oc-
curred 60 years ago. Still less had he expected that his "
c p e of teaching the Bible to all the children in the school.
noble and learned friend, holding the high official posi- That was a distinguishing feature of the system, and the
Lion he did, would have declared upon such evidence King, George 111., gave his immediate and liberal patron-
that certain merchants and citizens of London, in the age to the
transaction referred to, had 'committed a violation of the •
promotion of education—among others my father, the late
law. (Hear, hear.) It appeared to him (the Earl of
Clarendon) that a great part of his noble and learned Duke of Bedford--combined for the purpose of placing
friend's statement rested upon a fallacy, assuming,themselves at the head of institutions of this kind, and
his noble and learned friend did, that the deputation as
Lord Brougham, Sir S. Romilly, and many others aided
peared as speaking in the name of the nation. Such al3-
them with their abilities and zeal. At the same time,
not the case ; and it appeared to him (the Earl of Clarwasn
A while these schools were thus promoted, there arose an
don) that they did nothing more thanpresent Clare n- objection on the part of the established church,that though
from certain merchants and others of an address.
the city of London, the Bible was taught, therewas no insteucti on given in the
In reply to his noble and learned friend's ' formulariesf the church of England, and accordingly at a
two questions, o
he would first of all acquaint him that Lord Cowley had later period-18 , ._ll I think—a society called the National
not in any way been suerseded--11. la o.formed, in order to giva instruction not onlyiu
the sanction of the British v• laugh)—and that Society was
Government to the deputation the Bible, but in the catechism, and at the same time with
had neither being '
at-
before given nor asked. Two or three days a rule that the children attending their schools should at-
e the deputation proceeded to France a gentleman tend the established church on Sundays. Seeing these
from the '
City called upon him and showed him the ad- differences, there was immediately a hot contest with re-
dress, That address appeared to him to be perfectly un- s et to the principles on which the schools should be con-
objectionable. It wasmerely of opinion in f Pe
r a record - ducted. I will not now enter into the merits of that con-
your of the maintenance of peace, and knowing the feel-
troversy further than to say, that to this day we feel the
ings of the people of this country towards France, he
of it, and that while it must be admitted that thee©
effects .
could see no possible objection to the document. Thedegree to the
societies have_contributed in a very large
gentleman to whom he referred then told him that this
duced by the cones
declaration was to be presented to the Emperor. In it education of the people, the feelings
Plrt° if not impossible,
he could not see anything which could be said to bear a tests of those days have made
it
di
ffils;stem of education.
national character. The gentleman then asked him whe- to unite the poorer classesin onegenetray,
connected with tb.o
•
[ ther there wet any objection to instruct our Wm-' On the one hand, the National Society,

atablished church, insisted upon the learning of the religious and moral training of the people of this country,
catechism and the attendance at church, to which the but that this matter ought to be left entirely to the volun-
tary efforts of those who choose to undertake the task. I
Dissenters conscientiously objected ; on the other hand, the
can never subscribe to the reasoning by which this position
Dissenters, forced as it were into opposition on this subject, is supported. I never can admit that any principle or any
united in great bodies for the purposes of education, and scruple should prevent the State from assisting in the reli-
formed schools entirely on their own principles, and were gious and moral training of the people, when it is obviously
therefore organised in a manner that enabled them to great duty
the of the State to preserve peace and to enforce
the observance of the rules of morality. (Hear, hear.)
bring great power to bear against any plan bf education of
Take the case of a young man cast into gaol for some act
which those societies, chiefly composed of Dissenters, did of theft. He is told by the gaoler that he has offended
not approve. (Hear, hear.) The education, however, against the laws of the country :he is told-by the chaplain
which was carried on by these two societies produced a
of schools all over the country, and a great of the prison that he has offended against the laws of God .
great number
Should he ask why he had .not been instructed before with
increase of the means of education. About 1831 or 1832 respect to these matters, would it be a sufficient answer o
it was proposed, for the first time, to the House of Com- that young man to say, "The State has power to punish—
mons by the Government of Lord Grey, that the State it can commit you to prison, and even give you religious
should aid in the education of the poorer classes • and at instruction while there ; but there is some principle or
the same time it was proposed that a sum of 10,0001. should scruple which prevents it at any previous period frome
be given to each of these two societies for the purpose of giving you the means of avoiding thepunishmentyou rr
aiding them in their efforts. This plan continued till But that question was agitated very fully, I think, in 1847,
1839. The Treasury conducted the aid which they gave and the house decided by a very considerable majority in
according to the rules which, as a board, it was incumbent favour of the aid which was then sought by the Govern-
on thoni to adopt. They gave grants according to the inent for the purpose of promoting education. ,Since that
amount of the sums voluntarily subscribed, and they dis- time it has not appeared to me that the opinion of this
tributed their grants in the proportion of those sums, but House has been changed, and it certainly does not appear
they took no note or regard of the kind of education given. that the country agree with those who support what is
In 1839 Lord Melbourne's Government proposed a change called the voluntary system. (Hear, hear.) Various reli-
of the system. They proposed that a Committee of Conn- pious communions—for instance, the Established Church,
ail should be formed, which Committee of Council should the Wesleyans, the Roman Catholics, and the British and
take a more enlarged and a more discriminating view of Foreign School Society, comprising in the schools in con-
the business of education. Holding the office of Home nexion with it many of the various denominations of Dis-
Secretary at the time I wrote a letter to Lord Lansdowne, senters—have received the aid which was given them under
which letter, with the answer, was laid before Parliament the minutes of the Committee of Council. There are other
as the grounds of the proceeding that was then taken by parties, indeed, belonging to the same denominations as
the Government. It was intimated in that letter, by the those who receive the aid, especially the Baptists and Con-
command of Her Majesty that it was the wish of the gregationalists, who refuse the aid and maintain the vo-
Queen that the youth of this kingdom should be religiously luntary principle. It is evident, however, that these latter,
brought up, and that at the same time the rights of con- as compared with the country generally, form rather an in-
science should be respected. (Hear.) Among the proposals considerable minority, and therefore it cannot be expected
for encouraging the means of education, and furthering that this House would so far change its course as to lean to
this great object there was one to found a normal or train- the arguments used in support of the voluntary system.ifor
ing school, in which persons of different religious per- But there is another system which has been proposet
suasions should be educated, while at the same time there adoption, and which has been put forth as a system which
should be a chaplain of the Church of England to in- ought to influence the State in its decisions on this subject
struct those who belonged to that church. This pro- —I mean the proposal for the establishment of what are
posal excited great apprehension and alarm, and aftermuch called secular schools. Now, Ido not wish to misrepresent
threatened opposition it was withdrawn by the Govern- the arguments which are employed upon this subject, and
ment ; but the proposal to obtain a grant to be placed for I will endeavour to state as fairly as I can the views put
distribution it the hands of the Committee of Council was forth by those who are the advocates of this system. If I
persevered in, and by a narrow majority sanctioned by the should be so unfortunate as not to have comprehended the
House. of Commons. (Hear, hear.) In 1846 a further step system, I have no doubt there are many present who will
was taken of very considerable importance. That step was set me right, and place before this house the arguments in
an endeavour to • prove, to a very great degree, the favour of the plan they contend for. What I understand
quality of the education that was given. (Hear, hear.) to be said in support of this system is this :—The country
In stating in 1839 the views which the Government took is divided into various religious communions, differing
of education, I declared my opinion that the main object greatly from one another, and it has been impossible, by
to be had in view was to improve the character, the know- any scheme hitherto suggested, to bring the children of
ledge, and the condition of the schoolmaster—that, as the persons belonging to these different communions info one
schoolmaster is, so is the school, and that, unless we im- school, and induce them to accept of religious instruction
prove his character and condition, we could hope for no there ; but it would be very possible to give them secular
great improvement of education for the poorer classes. instruction—instruction in reading, writing, geography,
(Hear.) The minutes agreed to in 1846 were afterwards arithmetic, science, and art—and to leave the question of
the foundation of grants proposed to this house and carried religious instruction to the ministers and pastors of the
into effect. lam not aware that since that time any great different communions, and thus, by treating religion as a
change has taken place with reference to this subject. thing apart from the school, would be avoided the expense,
The house will thus perceive that the education of the difficulty, and discord which are created byhaving so many
poorer classes in this country has been conducted, generally schools. Now, if that be the proposal, there seem to me
speaking, by the voluntary efforts of great religious bodies, to be difficulties sufficiently great to prevent the adoption of
while, at the same time, they have had assistance from the such a system. We must consider, surely, when weare assist-
State, partly to increase the quantity, but chiefly, and es- ing in the education of children, and especially in the edu-
pecially, to improve the quality of the education ; though cation of the children of the poor of this country, that the
the State—and a review of the history of particular grants school is the place where they are to learn the rules for
will prove the fact—has not interfered materially with the their conduct in life,—those rules of religion and morality
nature of the instruction given. Great improvements have by which they are in- future to be regulated. Such
been made—indeed, I may say, a great revolution has taken being the case, it is obvious that, according to this plan of
place—in the instruction given since the commencement of secular instruction, there would not be sufficient time or
the schools under Lancaster and Bell ; but it has been ef- opportunity allowed for the clergy of the church of Eng-
fected at the suggestion of the different societies which land or the ministers of other denominations to instruct the
manage education for the bodies with which they are con- children in religion, and consequently ate very great and
nected, and by the managers of particular schools, who important end of education, I should say the most import-
have individually introduced improvements in the system. ant of all, would not be sufficiently attended to. (Hear,
What I wish to call the attention of the house to, how- hear.) The advocates of the secular system of instruction
ever, is the point at which we have arrived with respect see this difficulty, and it appears to me, while, no doubt,
to the education of the country generally—what it many differ among themselves, that the most able of them
is in amount and in character. To this, then, I take a mode of obviating the objection, which certainly de-
invite the consideration of the house before proceeding to serves the utmost consideration of this house before any
state what further steps we may be able to take. I re- system of the kind should be adopted. The scheme is deve-
ceived only yesterday from the Registrar-General a state- loped by many of the writers on the subject, especially by
ment relative to the number of schools in this country, and Mr.Combe, whose name, no doubt, will be well remembered
of persons receiving education in them. The number of by the house. What he holds out is this— that very imper-
public day schools existing on the 31st of March, 1851, at feat views are taken with respect to religious subjects ;
the taking of the census, was 15,473 ' • the number of per- that very often those rules which the Almighty has laid
sons belonging- to the schools, or on the school books, was down for our conduct in this life, so far from being fol-
-males 791,548, females 616,021 ; attending at the schools lowed, are wilfully or blimlly set at nought ; and that it is
on the 31st of March—males 635,107, females 480,130. the business of the schoolmaster to teach those laws of
The number of private day schools existing on the 31st of social economy and of physiology by which the people of
March, 1851, was 29,425 ; the number of persons belonging this kingdom may be better instructed in canducting them-
to the schools on the school books was—males 347,694, selves so as to enable them to avoid that course of vice
females 353,210 ' • attending at the schools on the 31st of and misery into which too many of them fall. It will,
March—males 317,390, females 322,349. The proportion however, be obvious to the house that this is a proposal
of scholars on the books to the population was equal to different from what was the apparent proposal, as at first
11.76 per cent., or 1 scholar to 8 eersons ; the proportion put forth, of the advocates of the secular system. The
of scholars in attendance to scholars on the books was proposal, as it stands nakedly in the first declaration of
equal to 83 1-sth per cent. I will now state from a dif- their views, amounts to this—give exclusive secular in-
ferent source what I believe to be a very accurate estimate struction in the schools, and leave religion to be taught
of the number of boys and girls belonging to the schools of elsewhere by the ministers of religion. The second view
the before-mentioned societies. The house will find it less of the subject, however, is this—there is a natural theology
than the number I have already given, which may be ac- which should be taught in the schools, but Christianity
counted for partly from the circumstance of there being a should not be taught there. (Hear, hear.) Now, that
number of schools unconnected with any society, and appears to me a view certainly more extensive, andi un-
partly from the account being mode up previously to 1851, doubtedly far more dangerous, than that which the advo-
which allows for subsequent increase. The number of catcs of secular education first out with. My belief is
scholars in 1817 was— Church schools, 955,865 ; British that the people of this country acted with a right instinct;
and Foreign schools, 225,000 ; Wesleyan, 38,623; Congre- when, upon associatingftogether and devoting their money
gational, 6,839; Roman Catholic, 3e,750 ; Ragged schools, for the purpose of education, they declared openly that
20,000; total, 1,211,077. Number of schools—Church of there should be a religious training in the schools, and
England, 17,015 ; British and Foreign, 1,500 ' • Wesleyan, that that religious training should comprise all the greet
397 ; Congregational, 89 ; Roman Catholic, 585 ; Ragged doctrines of Christianity. (Cheers.) Therefore, neither
schools, 270 ; total, 19,856. The income of these schools I nor the present Government can be a party to any
in 1847 stood thus :—Church of Enplane) schools, 817,081/. ; plan for proposing a secular mode cf teaching instead of
British end Foreign schools, 101,250/. ; Wesleyan, that which is at present established. I come, then,
27,347/. ; Congregational, 4,901/. ; Roman Catholic, to the question as to what should be done under the
16,000/. ; Ragged schools, 20.000/. ; total, 1,046,8791. I present system. Ido not, owing to the difficulties
think I shall be rather under than over the mark if I and which I mentioned at the outset, think it possible
50,0001. for all other schools ; and this makes the amount to unite throughout the country the children of persons
provided for the maintenance of those schools about of different religious communions in one plan of educe-
-1,100,0001. The sources of income are as follow :—local lion. There are obviously very great difficulties with re-
endowments, 69,537/. ; local subscriptions, 306,8231. ; local spect to those requirements which are made by the Nas
collections, 114,109/. ; school pence, 413,0441. ; other tional Society on the part of the church, and with respect
sources, 83,076/. ; private supporters, 54,000/. 'There is to requirements, too, which aro naturally made by the
one sees to which lam particularly desireee of calling the Dissenters on the pint of their communities. With respect
attention of the house—l allude to the item of 413,000!. to the National Society, it is past of their rules—l do not
derived from the school pence. I have no doubt the sum say whether it will be changed or not—that every child at-
here given is below the actual amount, and that we should tending their schools should learn the church catechism
not err in excess if we were to set down 500,000/., or half and should attend the church on the Sunday. It is obvi-
a million, as the sum actually contributed in school pence. one that this rule must be intended to apply only to the
Now, recollecting that half a century ago there were none children belonging to parents who are members of the
but Sunday schools which could be called public schools church, because, if you asked questions in the catechism of
for the poor, the result of these efforts is striking, and like- a child not baptised—if you pretended to ask him his name,
wise satisfactory. (Hear, hear.) That the people of this and who gave him that name, it would be manifest false-
country, and, above all, the working and poorer classes, hood, and almost blasphemy, the child to say that his
should contribute half a million a year to defray the ex- godfather and godmother gave it him, when id truth, he
pence of the instruction of their children the house cannot had neither godfather nor godmother. But, even if that
fail as to consider a most gratifying circumstance. (Hear, difficulty were got over—even if the National Society and
hear.) I confess it induces me to think that we ought to all the managers of schools belonging to the Church were
direct our efforts rather to strengthen and improve the to say that they would dispense, in the case of some chil-
system of education which has grown up chiefly from vo- dren, with the rule with respect to learning the catechism,
luntary efforts, than to attempt to set up anything in its and would not require their attendance at church, still I
place which, while disturbing the existing system, might do not think that in the present condition of things the
fail to supply an equal amount of money for the education great difficulty would then be at all removed. The house
of the poor. (Hear, hear.) At the same time, we are will see, if it gives its attention to the subject, that here is
bound to bear in mind that, although large sums are pro- a very great question involved, in which the Protestant
vided for this instruction, and a greet number of persons Dissenters of this country naturally take the deepest inte-
partake of it, it is, in great part, defective and inadequate, rest. In reference to ecclesiastical affairs, we have an
and it becomes us to consider whether, without disturbing established church, with its endowments, and the Sove-
the existing system, we may not do much to improve it. reign of the country belonging to it, with the exercise of
I will now state to the house what has occurred, chiefly her supremacy, and various laws making a distinction be-
under the minutes of 1846, but partly before those minutes tween the Established Church and bodies who belong to
were issued. I have already stated to the house that the other communions. Bht when we come to the question of
plan which was in the contemplation of the Government in political and civil rights, then, on the contrary, we have
1839, of having one training school under State direction perfect equality. (Hear, hear.) Equality of civil and
and control,
i did not meet with public favour, and was not political rights has been established with very few excep-
persevered n ; but that, instead thereof, a large number Lions, and it is now the rule ; and for the last 20 years
of training schools were established in different parts of the there has been no doubt on the minds of the great majority
country, of which the greater part belonged to the church, of the Legislature that there should be civil and political
and the others to various Dissenting congregations. equality with regard to the subjects of this country, to
These schools have proved to be of the greatest value whatever communion belonging. (Hear.) The Church iu
and utility—indeed, it is impossible to deny what is stated ancient days used to pretend to have complete dominion
by one of the most intelligent inspectors appointed over the education of the children of this country ; and I
by the (Severnment—namely, that the dispersion of remember Lord Derby, in this house, quoting an act of
pupil-teachers to various training sehools throughout the Henry IV. to that effect; but since the accession of the
country, to which funds are apportioned under the mi. house of Hanover education in this country has been per-
nutes of Council, is productive of more beneficial results featly free. When, therefore, there is a question of estab-
than could have been obtained from bringing them toge- fishing and supporting by the State a system of education,
ther into two or three large schools appropriated to their I believe the Protestant Dissenters would most naturally
education as schoolmasters. The plan now in force is this : and most justly say that the rule to be established on this
—A boy or girl, as the case may be, who shows intelli- subject should not be the rule of your ecclesiastical
gence and capacity for teaching is r' etained as a pupil, laws, but the rule of your civil and political laws; it
teacher in the elementary school for five years. During must be the rule of equality, and not of ascendancy. If
this time the pupil-teacher receives, under the authority this, then, were 'the case, it leads to this most serious
of the Committee of Council, out of the grants made by difficulty, with respect to parish schools—that whatever
this house, a salary beginning at 10a and rising to 20/. indulgence or whatever toleration you might give to the
before he leaves the school. He is then admitted into a children of Dissenters, that would not satisfy the dissent-
training school or college, as some are called, where he ing body, because there would still remain this source
becomes a Queen's scholar, and receives from 20/, to 25/. of discontent. Accordingly, when an attempt to establish
the first year, 251. in the second, and 30/. in the third. a combined plan was made, not many years ago, by my
There the pupil -teacher receives an education to Bs him Lib- L--ic pr qp,+ -are +
, sae. 1-rr -a n vornm,
for a schoolmaster. For this purpose he not only receives which I should haveheartil; wished to see succeed—at was
the best instruction from the masters and conductors of found, by the petitions presented to this house, and from
the schools, but has an opportunity of showing, practically, the discussions at public meetings, that a great' agitation
his capacity for teaching. In this way a large number of prevailed among the Dissenters, and that agitation was
persons are educated specially and properly for filling the sufficient to preclude all hope of the success of the scheme.
office of schoolmaster—an office which I, long ago, declared But it is further to be said with respect to the general
in this house was not held in• sufficient estimation, but establishment of one scheme of education, supposing it
which is now rising in just estimation, and which is cer- were to be supported by-a rate, that there is the difficulty
tainly one of the most important that any person can fill arising out of the strong repugnance to the imposition of
in this country. (Hear, hear.) I think it an advantage rates for such an object, in which the whole of the com-
that these pupil-teachers are dispersed over the country— munity cannot agree. Consequently, as the right hon.
some springing from the middle order—some belonging to gentleman opposite, the member for Midhurst, said last
the working classes, who are proud, and justly proud, of year, there would be, if a school-rate were imposed in every
seeing that their children, by dint of intelligence, by dint parish, something like the agitation in reference to it, as
of quickness in learning, and also by reason of religious now often prevails in reference to the church-rates. (Hear,
and moral conduct, have a chance of obtaining from the hear.) There is, however, it appears to us, one kind of
masters of the training colleges and the inspectors ap- community in this country which might obtain the means
pointed by the Government honourable testimony to their of supporting schools by rates—l allude to those towns
fitness for the office of teacher. (Hear, hear.) Since 1814 which have a corporate organisation, and, under act of Par-
the outlay upon training school has been 353;402/., and liarnent or by ancient charter, manage through municipal
the grants 137,623/. The income of 21 training schools institutions the concerns of the locality. In towns of this
in 1851 was 44,000/. to which must be added the annual kind there is not any necessity for establishing schools of
grants, amounting to 4,334/. Up to 1851 the number one kind. There are in these towns, generally, schools
of training schools established was, I believe, 40 ; but belonging to various communions, all of which either
the number has been much increased since, as well as receive, or might receive, some support by the minutes of
of the persons educated as pupil-teachers. In 1852 the Committee of Council. It appears to us, therefore,
the total expenditure on these schools under the that it is possible, at all events, to give power to the cor-
minutee of the Committee of Council, was—for porations and municipal councils of such towns to 'vote a
augmentation of teachers' salaries,. 16,9751. ; for sti- rate for the purpose of improving education therein. But,
ponds of pupil-teachers and gratuities to schoolmasters in so doing, we should think it necessary to impose certain
for their instruction, 79,587/. ; towards the building of conditions, in order to prevent evils which otherwise
training schools, 15,996/. ; for the support of training might arise. In the first place, we think it right that two-
schools, 17,5451,—making a total of 130,103/. In this way thirds of a town council should agree in the imposition of
great good may be achieved, and the result of this expen- the rate. If a mere majority had the power to impose the
diture is immediately to raise the character and position rate, and the majority should happen to be small, that
of tho schoolmaster. (Hear.) The inspectors appointed would give rise to incessant attempts to overturn the pre-
by the Government bear the strongest testimony to the vious decision, and to probably great dissentious in the
value of these schools. I will not weary the house with locality ; but if two-thirds of the representatives of the
quotations from the reports of these gentlemen, but will community gave their voice in favour of the imposition of
content myself with stating that Mr. Moseley, one of the the rate, their decision would probably be generally in
most distinguished of them, bears the warmest testimony accordance with the sense of the town. In the next place,
in favour of the training schools, in which he is supported we think it necessary that the rate should be applied, not
by all his colleagues. Only to-day I read (the testimony to establish schools in substitution of former schools, but
given by the principal of the training school at Chelten- in aid of the voluntary efforts of individuals, and of the
ham, in which this gentleman states that he has watched school pence given by the parents of children. We should
the progress of the system for two years, and bears willing propose some such scheme as this—that the rate might be
evidence in favour of the advantages resulting from it. An applied to pay 2d. in the week for the scholars, provided
examination is likewise carried on under the direction of 4d. or sd. were contributed from other sources. We should
the Committee of Council, both of those who have been propose, likewise, that the schools which should receive this
and those who desire to become schoolmasters, and to whom assistance should be schools .which, under the minutes of
if approved, certificates are granted. About 1,900 men Council, might receive assistance, and which, consequently,
and 900 women have obtained certificates of merit. A have for years received the sanction of Parliament. (Hear.)
portion of these are now exercising the duties of teachers, I should be afraid of great difficulty and dissension if we
but I should say that about 2.700 of those who have re- were to go beyond a rule of this kind, and I found my
ceived certificates of merit continue to teach. I now come opinion very much on what occurred in Manchester in the
to a question which has been discussed with great ability, past year. It is well known that a number of gentle-
and which has excited great interest throughout the coun- men, most benevolent, and entitled to the highest
try—namely, what shall be done with this system ? Shall praise for their exertions, associated together for the pur-
we continue to add to its efficacy by aennentin,g the pose of establishing a rate for improving education in that
amount of aid given by the State? Shall we abandon it place. When they endeavoured to collect the opinions of
altagether ? Shall we adopt another system in place of it? the town a very great number of ratepayers—some might
ll dispose of the last two queries before proceeding to dispute whether they amounted to the majority of rate-
explain the pro
It is position which it a+ my duty to submit to payers, but they appeared to be so—assented to the
pin-
the house. urged by some persons of considerable ciple of rating. When they came, however, to consider
talent that the State ought not to interfere at all in the what kind of schools should receive assistance, I believe

they had no difficulty so long as they confined themselves
to the schools under which the minutes of Council might
receive assistance ; but, when they endeavoured to frame a
scheme of their own, for new and further schools, they
were met by the difficulty that all should receive the bene-
fit of assistance. Now, the resolution to which the asso-
ciation had come, made it an absolute and essential condi-
tion that the Scriptures should be read in the authorised
version, leaving, however, the Roman Catholics to use the
Douay version. But it was to be expected, and it did oc-
cur, that the Roman Catholics demurred altogether to the
religious instruction to be given in such schools, and they,
therefore, formed a minority dissenting from that plan.
Now I think the same difficulty would be found in any
attempts to frame any other plan, and we should not
therefore propose that the power of the town councils
should go further than the appointment of a committee,
which should distribute the sums obtained from the rate
according to the minutes of the committee of Privy Coun-
cil. The committee to be appointed by the town councils
would be formed partly by members of the council, and
partly of other persons resident in the town, who would be
able to obtain accurate information with respect to the
schools, and see that all the conditions required by the
State were complied with in those schools. I propose to
ask for leave to bring in a bill to carry these into effect. I
may add that we propose also that in these schools a parent
should have the power of withdrawing his child from the
religious instruction to which he might be subjected. It
is obvious, however, on the one hand, that the parents
would not send their children to a school where the reli-
gious instruction should be repugnant to the parent ; and
on the other hand a school which had strict rules that
every child should receive that religious instruction, would
at once refuse admission to such a child. All will be done,
therefore, by a clause which will declare the general prin-
ciple that the parent may have the power of such with-
drawal. Seeing that such a plan could not be generally
adopted in this country, and for this plain reason, that in
many parishes in the country there could only be ono
school, we propose by a minute, which Int been for some
time under consideration, but which is not yet fully ma-
tured, to allow in certain instances to places which
have not municipal corporations a certain sum per head
for each child attending...the school. It will be neces-
sary, however, to confine any such grants to those
schools where the schoolmaster has obtained a certificate
of ability. That minute, when its provisions shall have
been fully matured, will be laid upon the table, and the
house, before coming to any vote upon it, will have ample
opportunity afforded for duty considering it. (Hear.)
The committee of council have likewise considered the pro-
priety of making additional grants for buildings in some
poor places where great difficulty exists in obtaining a suf-
ficient sum for establishing schools. I should say that the
schools generally throughout the country may be divided
into three classes. First, those in which the education is
already sufficient, and where it is also of a sufficiently good
quality; secondly, where the education is deficient both in
quantity and quality; and thirdly, where education has
been entirely neglected. The schools of the first class are
already considerable number; those of the third class are
rapidly diminishing, and are certainly not very numerous;
but it is the second which constitutes the largest class, and
which requires the largest amount of aid and assistance. I
have now stated what is proposed to be done by the bill
as regards a school-rate, and by the minutes of council with
respect to building. There is, however, one subject of
great importance, and with regard to which several bills
have lately been introduced into this house—l mean the
very large amount of property which has been left by cha-
ritable bequests, and which now forms the income of pub-
lic charities. (Hear.) Attention was called to this subject
many years ago by Lord Brougham ; and among the varied
labours which he has performed, and the many splendid
efforts which he has made, I know of no object more use-
ful to which he has turned his attention ; and I know of
no arguments more striking than those which he has used
upon the subject of public charities. In 1818 a commis-
sion was appointed upon the subject, several commissions
have been appointed since that period, the last being ap-
pointed by the Crown, when I had the honour of holding
the office of Secretary in the Home-office, and finally made
its report in 1837. This commission made its report in 38
folio volumes. They reported that the number of charities
amounted to 28,840, and they stated the aggregate income
of the charities, upon which they reported, to be 1,209,3951.
They likewise stated that the annual income of the endow-
ments for the purpose of education was 312,0001. Now,
with respect to many of these charities, various evils have
been found to exist. With regard to a great number of
them, the money has been left to individuals, the trustees
having been careless in recovering them, and they have
been lost in the lapse of time from negligence and inat-
tention. With respect to others of them, the money has
been dispersed by litigation. One instance is mentioned
in the report of a sum of 3,0001., which, after a law-suit
of a considerable length of time—conducted as law-
suits were in our Court of Chancery—left a residue of only
151. a-year. There are unfortunately too many instances
of the same kind. Many of these charities are of exceed-
ingly small amount, and they have been left for purposes
which are not now found to be useful. The charities not
amounting to 51. a-year are 13,331 in number, and those
of 51. and under 101. are 4,641 in number, making a total
of 17,272 under 101. per annum. Upon the other hand,
there are several which have increased far beyond the ex-
pectation of those who founded them. There are of cha-
rities of 2,0001. and under 3,0001. twenty-four • of 3,0001.
and under 4,0001. ten ; of 4,0001. and under 5,0001. four ;
of 5,0001. and, under 6,0001 two; of 8,0001. and under
9,0001. three ; and there are also one each of the different
sums of 10,0001., 15,000/., 20,0001., 25,0001., 30,0001., and
35,0001. This is a subject which, having attracted the at-
tention of the public, was sure to be brought under the
consideration of Parliament and of those who held office in
the High Court of Chancery. Lord Lyndhurst, from 1842
to 1845 introduced, I think, three or four different bills on
the subject, which did not, however, pass through Parlia-
ment. Lord Cottenham, in the same way, four times in-
troduced bills relating to these charities, and last year a
bill was under consideration, proposed by the last commis-
sioners of charities appointed in 1849, which contained
many useful provisions. Some of these provisions went
to obtain more accurate and complete accounts of the value
of these charities, their amount, the prevention of loss by
litigation, by declaring and enacting that, without the au-
thority of the Attorney-General, no suits should be insti-
tuted. Other parts of the measure went to give the power
of exchanging lands and granting building leases, working
mines, and various other powers, which would tend to
make property of this kind more valuable. We propose to
adopt these provisions, but we propose to vary the power
to which this discretion is to be given. It appears to us
that there are many matters totally distinct, and which
ought to be placed under distinct management. There is
first a judicial power, which would be required to declare
whether any of these trusts have been abused, and to take
methods for remedying obvious abuses against the will of
the founder. Secondly, there is a power which is that of
administration, or rather of superintending the adminis-
tion, of trusts, which it appears to us should be differently
exercised. It was proposed last year that there should be
a body of three persons named by the Lord Chancellor, two
of whom were to receive salaries, and the third might also
receive a salary, if it should be thought necessary to
give it. There is no reason to think that persons so
appointed, without the superintendence of Parliament,
would do otherwise than exercise their power merely so
that there should be no abuse of the powers given by the
founder of the charities, and in taking care that no unnes-
sary litigation should take place. Now, we think it de-
sirable that there should be an authority which should
have the power of proposing and enforcing amended
schemes for the disposition of charitable property for such
useful purposes as the founder himself might wish to see
them applied to. We therefore propose that there should
be vested in a committee of the Privy Council, to be ap-
pointed by her Majesty, with the Lord President at its
head, a general power, besides those which I have already
mentioned, to propose schemes for varying trusts in respect
to those charities. We should propose that with respect
to those schemes which should meet the approbation of
the trustees, that they should be adopted, and should,
after being placed on the record, take effect in the same
manner as the original trusts. There is a clause similar in
effect to this in the bill proposed last year. We propose
also to give a power, similar to that which has been con-
ferred by Parliament in one or two instances of late years,
that in cases where the trustees do not consent to the
scheme, a bill should be introduced into this house, and
the assent of Parliament should be asked to the improved
administration of these funds. It appears to me that
great advantages may be gained by the exercise of a power
of this kind. With respect to many of those small chari-
ties giving six loaves at Christmas, and different small be-
quests of that kind, they are generally of no use to the
place where they are given, and in many cases they are
extremely noxious • they produce, in the majority of cases,
merely a day of feasting and of waste, they induce idle
and profligate persons to go to some particular parish for
the purpose of obtaining the benefits, and the benevolent
views of the founder of the charity is utterly frustrated.
Of course, the house would be very jealous of giving any
power upon such a subject, which would seem to interfere
unduly with the intentions of the founders of charities.
At the same time here is a great public advantage to be
gained, and here is a body which might be constituted to
winch ue VII LI UZ Ccu, - -_
checks as Parliament should think proper, the power of
endeavouring to extract out of these charities the power of
obtaining objects of great utility—such, for instance, as
that of the improved education of the people. (Hear.) My
noble friend the Lord President will ask to intraduce a bill
into the other house, containing the views of the Govern-
ment upon this subject, and I trust that to whomsoever
the power may be given, or whatever may be the extent
of those powers, that we shall at last be able, after
ten years of attempted and frustrated legislation, in
the course of the present year to legislate upon a subject of
this vast importance in such a manner as to improve the
distribution and management of these charitable funds. We
propose that charities not having incomes above 30/. a-year
should be carried to the county courts, and those above that
sum either to the Master of the Rolls or the Vice-Chancellor,
who will have special powers intrusted to them on the sub-
ject. I have now stated generally what are the views of her
Majesty's Government upon the question of theeducation of
the working and poorer classes of the country. The sum
which will be asked appears in the estimates, and before
that vote is taken we shall be able to explain fully the mi-
nute which we shall have adopted upon tho subject to which
I have already referred, and it will then be for the house to
consider whether it will grant the stun asked for or not. There
are some other topics upon which I wish to touch, because
they are akin to these subjects, though I do hot propose to
enter at length onto them. The first is, that the speech
of her Majesty, delivered at the commencement of the
session, has occupied the attention of the Government. The
earnest deliberation of the house was in that speech re-
quested to the consideration of the subject of the promotion
of science and art. It is proposed by the Board of Trade
that the same authority granted for the department of schools
of design, and for the purpose of science, should be united
under one department, to be called " The Department of
Science and Art," under the Board of Trade. Without any
very large expenditure, it will be found that there will be
means of opening museums for scientific objects, and also
for a museum of art, which for the present will be placed in
Marlborough House. There will also be the means provided
for giving instructions on technical questions relating to art
and manufactures, calculated to improve and cultivate the
taste as applicable to manufacturing purposes. Dr. Lyon
Playfair will be the inspector of the scientific, and Mr.
Cole of the department of art, and under their care and
superintendence it is hoped that great advantage will be
obtained. 'What more immediately concerns that which I
have to state to the house this evening is, that it is pro-
posed by the Department of Art, instead of sending to
certain schools in this country that- aid which has usually
been granted, that models and particular forms useful for
instruction in drawing should be furnished as parts of the
grant in cases where such assistance is required, for the pur-
pose of improving their pupils in drawing and in a know-
ledge of the principles of art. (Hear.) I said that I
would state upon this occasion what were the general views
of her Majesty's Government with respect to the reports of
the commissions which were appointed by the Crown on
the subject of the two universities. The house is well aware
that these (sommissious have presented reports of a most
valuable Id nd, setting forth in great detail the history of
those universities, giving a great deal of evidence of a most
indructivg and valuable uatura-, and themselves suggesting