The Sun.
London, England, 1853-02-22 00:00:00

motions made from considerations of a political or family
kind at all. (Hear, hear.)
_ _

Captain SCOBELL said he meant nothing personal
to any particular Admiralty. He meant the expres-
sions he used to apply to all Admiralties since he was
born. (Laughter.)

Sir G. TYLER defended the "good service" pen-
sion held by Captain Lambert, than whom, he said, he
believed there was no officer in the service who more
deserved the consideration of his country. (Hear.)
Mr. HUME reminded the committee that when he
was a member of the committee on salaries, he laid on
the table of the committee a plan for forming the un-
gainly and unsightly buildings in Downing-street
into a regular square, so to comprise the
offices of the whole of the public departments ;
and he repeated his wish that his right hon. friend (Sir J.
Graham) would turn his attention again to some such
proposition.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE said he did not under-
stand his hon. friend (Mr. Hume) to make any reflection
on Captain Lambert. .

The vote was then agreed to.
The next was a vote of 34,9391. to defray the salaries
and contingent expenses of the scientific department of
the navy.
Mr. E. ELLICE, jun., complained that the state of
our coasts as regarded the hydrographic survey was most
disgraceful. The hydrographer himself had stated that
we knew more of the coast of Otaheite than of that of
Scotland. Since 1844 there had been 37 charts com-
pleted and sent in to the Admiralty, 18 of which had
only been published, and those were six years in course
of publication. He really thought that something should
be done to remedy this grievance.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the very circumstance that
there was a large accumulation of surveys taken some
years ago, and not yet published, was a justification of
the suspension of pushing those surveys further. (No,
no.) Besides, what was the use of a survey until it
was actually tested ? He remembered some years ago
an officer being employed in surveying the river Thames.
Some years had elapsed, and he found the same officer
still employed in the same service. (Laughter.)
Mr. HUME reminded the committee that England
was the chief maritime power. We had undoubtedly
dangerous coasts, and it was a discredit and a disgrace
to be told that we had not surveys of our own coasts.
Sir J. GRAHAM deprecated the issue of charts in
that imperfect state in which it was probable they would
be issued if sufficient time were not allowed for their
proper examination by the hydrogra,pher previous to
their publication.
Sir F. BARING was of opinion, that, considering
the great importance to the commeetial and maritime
interests of the country to have an increased supply of
charts, additional assistance should be rendered to Ad-
miral Beaufort, the present hydrographer, in order to
enable that officer to examine and report upon additional
charts. He thought that all questions connected with
the harbour department should be taken from the hy-
drographer, and transferred to the Board of Admiralty.
Sir J. GRAHAM stated that he had only proposed

to take a vote for six months, in order to enable him to
examine the whole subject, and consider what, if any,
assistance should be rendered to the office ot the hydro-
grapher.
Mr. HUME hoped that the price of the Nautical Al-
manac would be reduced to half-a-crown, a price which
would amply repay the price of its preparation and
printing, while it would at the same time tend greatly
to increase the sale of the work.

Sir J. GRAHAM stated that a reduction in price
had taken place within the last two years.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote proposed was a sum of 134,2301. for de-
fraying the salaries of officers of the naval establishments
at home.
Mr. TUFNELL called attention to the low rate
of wages paid to the shipwrights in the dockyards.
Neither the pensions allowed to the workmen,
nor the medical assistance, which, in case .of
accident, was gratuitously offered them, was, in
his opinion, sufficient to compensate for the low rate
of wages paid. An extensive emigration was taking
place, which would have a tendency to increase the rate
of wages, and draw the skilled hands away from the
royal to the private dockyards. The Government ought
to have the services of the most skilful workmen that
could be obtained ; this, however, they would not be
able to secure unless some alteration were made in the
rate of wages. He trusted that the subject would re-
ceive the best attention at the hands of the Government.
(Hear.)

Mr. 'COLLIER believed that a permanent increase in
the rate of wages was now taking place throughout the
country, and it was most desirable that the royal dock-
yards should be supplied with skilled labour fully equal
to that employed in private yards. He concurred in the
opinion expressed by the hon. member who had preceded
him, that it was necessary to raise the rate of wages, in
order to secure the necessary supply of skilled labour.
Sir J. GRAHAM stated that the Admiralty had
given a most patient consideration to the subject re-
ferred to, and although he admitted that the workmen
ought not to be paid a lower rate of wages in the royal
than in ordinary yards, still it must be remembered that
they ought not to receive one farthing more than the
market value of their labour. Ile did not believe, not-
withstanding- the complaints which had been made, that
there was at present a single vacancy in one of the royal
yards, and even if there were any they would be imnie-
dia.tely filled. It did not appear, therefore, that they
were below the market rate of wages. When he was
last at the Admiralty the rate of wages was reduced
_ _

from ss. to 4s. per day. The shipwrights were then
working five clays out of Si; they were now working
six days per week, and they had also permission to re-
sume , task work. In case of accident the men were
allowed half their wages, and had medical attendance
gratis. . After a service of twenty years, they were
also allowed to retire on a pension ; and if the business
of the dockyards were administered without any con-
sideration of political influence, promotion was open to
every man, from the highest to the lowest. He be-
lieved that they might safely adhere to the present rate
of wages, and neither he nor his colleagues, after giving
the best attention tb the subject, was prepared to add
in the least degree to the present rate of wages given to
workmen in the dockyards.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that the subject was one
which must be regulated by the ordinary rules of supply
and demand, and he could assure the committee that he
was at- present actually inundated with applications for
situations.
Mr. M. CHAMBERS considered that some mistake
had been made by the Admiralty with respect to the
rate of remuneration given to the workmen in the dock-
yards. He had felt it his duty to make careful inquiries
on the subject, and the result was, to convince him of
the urgent necessity of making some alteration in the
present rate of wages. There were three classes of
workmen—shipwrights, joiners, and sawyers. The ship-
wrights had nominally 265. per week, and out of that
sum one shilling was deducted in order to form a super-
annuation fund • and second shilling towards obtaining
medical attendance in case of accident. The super-
annuation fund, therefore, was one to which they were
entitled by their own contributions. Medical attendance
was also paid for by the workmen ; but they were not
allowed the benefit of that attendance unless they lived
within sound of the bell of the dockyard. Neither of
these privileges ought, therefore, to be considered as
additions to the wages of the shipwrights. He found,
also, that in private yards the rate of wages wad from
365. to 425. per week, so that it could not be fairly con-
tended that the wages given in the royal dockyards was
equal to the ordinary market price. Great complaints
had been made of the character of the vessels usually
sent out of our dockyards ; but if they were anxious to
turn out good work they must obtain the services of good
workmen, and this could only be done by giving the
workmen good remuneration for their services. (Hear.)
Ship-joiners, who were a higher class of workmen, could
earn in private dockyards from 30s. to 365. per week,
while in the royal yards only 21s. per week was paid.
Sawyers, working in pairs, could only earn in Deptford
dockyard, by working from seven in the morning until
dusk, sawing hard wood, 355. the pair, or 17s. 6d. per
week each, whereas, if they were to go into an ordinary
timber-yard, they could obtain 30s. per week for sawing
deals and other soft wood. Emigration was now the
fashion of the day, and he was sorry to hear that meet-
ings had been held, and disposition evinced on the part
of some of the men employed in the dockyard to emi-
grate, in consequence of the low rate of wages ; many of
the men, however, were prevented from doing so by the
circumstance of their having paid many years into the
superannuation fund, and did not wish to lose the
amount they had so paid. It had been said that the
dockyard men were comparatively better paid than work-
men in the country. It should be recollected, however,
that they were much higher taxed. In Woolwich and
Deptford they had to pay parish rates, town rates,
health of towns rates, and other local taxes. They had,
further, to pay high rents. They were obliged, too, to
live within sound of the dockyard bell, in order that they
might be ready in case of fire. Altogether, therefore,
their expenses were much higher than those of many
persons of the same rank in the country, who, though
they might receive lower wages, were able to expend
their money in a more advantageous manner. As a
reformer, he had been exceedingly surprised at a sug-
gestion that these men should be deprived of the elective
franchise. Such a measure could not be justified on any
ground of policy. Besides, if it were adopted, the
best men would be lost to the public, for they certainly

could not be expected to remain in a service where

their rights and privileges were taken away. These
men knew that they had rights and privileges ; more-
over, they knew how to use them. He (Mr. Chambers)
was an instance of their privileges baying been used in-
dependently. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Under all
the circumstances, he sincerely hoped that the case of
the dockyard artificers would be seriously considered
before the project was entertained of depriving them of
the franchise ; for he was certain that the best class of
men would not enter if they found they were to be liable
to the penalty of disfranchisment.
Mr. HUME admired the candour of . the hon. and
learned gentleman, when he said he was an instance of
the way in which the dockyard artificers exerted their
right of franchise. Would the hon. and learned gentle-
man tell the house what bad been the expenses of his
election ? (Hear, and a laugh.) He (Mr. Hume) had
never during the whole of his political life, bad the pa-
tronage or the appointment of a single dockyard car-
penter, nor had he evet sat for a dockyard; but he
knew that the principle upon which such establishments
should be conducted was that of supply and demand.
He contended that the efficiency of the dockyards could
only be restored by the franchise being taken away. As to
the objections which bad been made to building ships
by contract, he feared the honourable and learned mem-
ber had not enjoyed many opportunities of seeing what
was going on in the large private building yards. There
he would not find ships cut in two, and made to undergo
all sorts of metamorphoses, regardless of cost.
Mr. MACGREGOR said this was the first time he
had heard the policy of the First Lord of the Admiralty

condemned because wages were not sufficiently high.
As to the general management of the dockyards of this
country, he had no hesitation in saying that there was
not one which did not require a complete re-organisa-
tion, to accomplish which he knew of no man more cap-
able than the present First Lord of the Admiralty.
Lord MONCK said there was a strong feeling among
the artisans in the dockyards that they were not over-
paid, but underpaid ; and he was sure that no more in-
judicious proposition could be made than to disfranchise
them.

Mr. WILLIAMS contended that unless the dock-
yard men were deprived of the franchise, there would be
no possibility of economical management. He attributed
to the present system all the jobbing and extravagance
which prevailed.
After a few words from Mr. PHINN,

Sir F. BARING was aware he was open to the ob-
jection that he sat for a dockyard ; but he might be
allowed to say what he thought to be the right prin-
ciple in the case. The wages of public departments

could not rise and fall like those paid in private con-
cerns ; but at the same time, if there was a permament

rise or a permanent fall in the wages of private establish-
ments, those of the public yards must follow. As to
disfranchisement, if attempts were made to deprive
the men employed in the dockyards of their electoral
privileges, his right honourable friend at the head of
the Admiralty would find him (Sir F. Baring) join-
ing the chorus of the members for the dockyards.
Disfranchisement, in his opinion, was perfectly unneces-
sary, because the taking away of the right of voting
would not destroy the system of patronage.
Captain BOLDERO called attention to the case of the
assistant-surgeons in the Royal. Navy. In the year 1850,
the house upon his motion, adopted a resolution declar:ng
that the accommodations provided for these valuable officers
was insufficient to secure the full benefit of their services.

This resolution was carried in hostility to the views of the
Admiralty, whose feelings were displayed in the memoran-
dum or order which was issued in consequence of the re-
solution of the house. On one or two occasions he had
given notice of a motion to bring the question under the
notice of the house ; but he received from the right hon.
baronet the member for Portsmouth (Sir F. Baring), then
at the head of the Admiralty, an assurance that he was
disposed to carry out the rezolution of the house in a fair
spirit. But he had learned that the assistant-surgeons had
been refused accommodation, even when they were eligible
for it, according to the terms of the memorandum. He
knew, further, of some cases where superior authorities
having steppedin, these gentlemen had cabins. prow ided for
them. He had not had an opportunity of testing the
late Board of Admiralty, but he was anxious to ascertain
the views of the present board in carrying out the resolu-
tion of the house. The terms of the memorandum he con-
ceived to be rather offensive ; for it said the assistant-sur-
geons were "to be allowed cabins when the accommodation
on board Rill admit." He had received a return from
the ships on the Mediterranean station relative to twelve
assistant-surgeons, al' of whom irad passed for the higher
rank of surgeon. But of the twelve only five had received
cabins ; and out of the five, only two had this little advan-
tage in the ward-room. The treatment of these gen-
tlemen was producing its natural fruits, for the elite of the
candidates from Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dublin, and London
shunned the service. In one or two of the colleges, he be-
lieved, they had come to a resolution that they would not
enter the naval service until this, which they considered a
moral degradation, was removed. At the present time he
believed there were very few candidates for assistant sur-
geoncies in the navy. A short period back there were only
five, he was told ; and he doubted whether they amounted
to ten. At all events, in the army the candidates were
reckoned by hundreds, whilst in the navy they could only
be counted by units. Under these circumstances, he asked
the house whether it was desirable to continue a system
which was unjust to the men, and injurious to the efficiency
of her Majesty's service. If the present system was per-
sisted in, the result would bo that the navy would not have
a single properly qualified candidate to fill any vacancy as
assistant-surgeon in the Royal Navy.
Admiral BERKELEY was one of the Board of Admi-
ralty in 1850, when the hon. and gallant officer thought fit
to bring before the house the case of the assistant-surgeons,
and he thought upon mature consideration he would almost
regret having done so. [Capt. Eoldero : Not at all.] How
would he lik, if he were colonel of a regiment, for the dis-
cipline of that regiment to be regulated by a naval officer.
The hon. and gallant gentleman said the Board of Admi-
ralty had evaded the question, and not carried the resolu-
tion which the house had agreed to. But when that resolu-
tion was affirmed, Lthe right hon. !member for Portsmouth,
who was then First Lord of the Admiralty, said that in Con-
sequence of the majority being so small, and every naval
officer voting with the minority, he should bow to the deci-
sion of the house only to this extent, that where cabins
could be formed, not trenching on the comforts of the men
and not interfering with the efficiency of the ships, in such
vessels a cabin should be built for the assistant-surgeons.
Such was the direction which the right hon. baronet gave
to the surveyor of the navy, and a cabin had been built in
every ship fitting out since, where accommodation of the
men was amply provided. By the course which the hon.
and gallant officer was taking, he was endeavouring to
cause the greatest dissatisfaction throughout the navy, by
endeavouring to place the assistant-surgeons above their
superior officers, the mates. Those men were obliged to
study quite as much as the assistant surgeons to obtain
certificates of merit, and they desired to keep quiet in the
gun-room. He believed the gun-room was quite as quiet
as the ward-room. In the ward-room every young officer
was a fiddler or a fluter—(a laugh)—but they could not
practise in the gun-room, because when they were there
they had to study navigation. As to the youngsters, they
could not interfere with the studies of the assistant-sur-
geons, because they only used the gun-room to take their
meals, and were in the school-room the rest of their time.
He was sorry to say that the assistant-surgeons' cabin had
been a source of great mischief in many ships, being
turned to purposes of conviviality rather than to purposes
of study. The assistant-surgeons were remarkably well
off, were well paid, and, as to not having any candidates,
fifty-four entered the service only last week. (Hear.)
Mr. H UME was not aware before that every naval officer
in the house voted in the minority on a former occasion,
and be regretted they should have shown so little consider-
ation for the service. The question was, ought they, or
not, to obtain as able and efficient medical men for the
navy as for other branches of the service ? At present it
was the last place they went to. They came to the navy

if they could find employment nowhere else. In the army
and in the Indian service they were treated as gentlemen,
but in the navy the steam-officers had cabins allotted to
them, whilst it was denied to the assistant-surgeons, and
the best men were thus driven from entering it. He ap-
pealed to the right hon. baronet the First Lord of the Ad-
miralty whether men brought up as gentlemen, and not
admitted under twenty-two years of age, ought to be
placed with young menadmir- valery
.of en much inferior in age,
athned'flaustet,haend haring no place to
had said,
addictedpAieto to the fiddle or
highly of what the hon. and galla,nt gent.lemHane
and he hoped he would persevere until justice was done to
this important class. (Hear, hear.)
rosmaidotneethßeoctoirmdfoortf Aofdmirealty could
more 88.
disposedß O R
toN Ep
be3lr.
than
andt he
gallantprese board.tmember
(Capt.
If
ph
ti
B recollectionioeivdr
0)a carriednkw
the service
a hon.
his resolution in 1850, by surprise:; the di • was taken
first and the discussion afterward:; ; in a thinn was
voted and 40 against it ; and that was a time whenil"'the4B
navy estimates were not so popular as they were now. H
was sorry the hon. member for Montrose had e
taken a
course now different tc% what he took on
that occasion. The
hon. member said then it was a question of details, which
should be left to the consideration of the Admiralty. In
fact, the whole question was a question for the Board
of Admiralty. It was a question of space, with which
naval men were alone competent to deal. Since 1809,
he was confident there was n o -class of men whose
comforts were more attended to than assistant-
surgeons. He found that in 1840 a commission sat and
inquired into this very circumstance, and the commis-
sioners included men whose opinion would be received
with deference by the honourable• and gallant captain—the
Duke of Wellington, the Duke of Richmond, Lord Mel-
bourne, Lord Hill, Sir ,G. Cockb urn, the present Sir H.
Hardinge, and Sir Hussey Vivian. They considered the
possibility of removing the medical officers from the cock-
pit to mess with the lieutenants, and they said in their re-
port, " On full consideration we find practical difficulties
in the way of making any arrangements to accomplish
this in a satisfactory and uniform. manner in all classes of
ships. The accommodation afforded of late years to this
class of officers is so improved as t o render the removal less
essential, and we are, therefore, not prepared to make any
representation in this respect." In 18-M, orders were
given that every ship above a s ixth-rate should have a
cabin fitted up, in which, if they preferred, the mates, 53-
sistant-surgeons, second masters,, and post clerks might
mess together, instead of messing, with the midshipmen.
The hon. and gallant member said nothing had been done
on the resolution of 1850, and that the order for giving
those cabins, when the accommod. ation and space on board
would admit, was an insult. He thought, when the gal-
lant member looked at it dispassionately, he would see that
was the language or compliment, and not the language of
insult. By a return in May, 1851, it appeared the greater
number of assistant-surgeons had these cabins, and the
order was carried out whenever space would admit of
erecting them. He was the last man to offer an insult to
a profession in which were many dist inguish and gallant
men, and to sum up in the words of the hon. member for
Montrose, this was a question of detail which must be left
to the Admiralty.
Captain BOLDERO explained!, in reply to Admiral
Berkeley, that nothing was further from his thoughts than
to endeavour to create dissatisfaction in the navy.
After a few words from Captain SCOBELL and Mr.
PEACOCKE, the vote was agreed to.
A vote of 22,764/. for her Majesty's establishments abroad
was also agreed. to.
A vote of 683,648/. was next proposed for wages to arti-
ficers, &c., employed in her Alajesty's establishments
at home.
A vote of 35,5661. wages to artificers abroad was also
agreed to.
Mr. HUME wished to ask whether the dockyard batta-
lions, the raising of which had cost 70,0301
that ~ we
the re capaouldble
of working great guns ?It had been stated y c
not do anything of the Lind.
Admiral BERKELEY said that was quite
oul
a mistake.
They had been trained to work groat guns, and cd
manage them very well.
The vote was then agreed to.
Upon a vote being proposed of 1,023,0111. for naval
stores, and for the building and repairs of ships,
Mr. HUME called attenti contracts
forswate which had been
occasioned by entering into a greater quantity,
of stores than were wanted, particularly timber, and to
abuses which prevailed in the measurement and delivery

of coals.
Sir J. GRAHAM remarked that, the reduction of the
stores had been made tho subject of an accusation agains,
his former administration of the Admiralty, but on return-
ing to office he found that the standard of the principal
articles remained as he had fixed it. (Hear, hear.) There
had been a great increase in the price of stores and in the
single article of copper the additional expense was 60,000/.
Iron, also, had risen 70 or 80 per cent. within the last two
years, and timber was much dearer. The increase in the
estimates upon these three articles was 140,000/.
The vote was then agreed to, as wore also the following
votes :
256,9481. for new works, improvements, and repairs in
the yards, &c. •
26,0a0/. for medicines and medical scores.
57,4271. for miscellaneous services.
half-
The next vote was 687,5751. for Iv:if-pay, reserved
and Royal
pp.y, and retirement to officers of the Navy
Marines.
Mr. lIITME expressed a hopecou that steps w
reould bale tathkean
n
to limit promotion. Nothing ld be mo farcic
the way in which we went on promoting admirals. We
had in the army men sent out outm who
cre of no use - and in India, of three commanders-in-
chief, not one liad the seat of war.
fiir J. GRAHAMobserved that a limit had already