The Sun.
London, England, 1853-07-12 00:00:00

Ireland produced nearly, but not quite, the same num-
lAMENT• ben—in all, about 2,400 or 2,500. Not abo-v e one-third
of those could be received in Westem Australia; and
it would be a very unwholesome state of the criminal
law, if, of the large number sentenced to transportatior,
everybody should know that there were two chances
out of three that the sentence would not be carried into
execution. (Heal.) To aN 0... d this, they must go a step
further, and remove transportation from a still larger
number. There were none for periods between 10 and
14 years ; he only remembered one case of a man sen-
tenced for twelve years, and there were probably not
half-a-dozen such cases in a year. Nearly all above ten
were sentenced to fourteen years or upwards. Deduct.
ing from 1,330 the number sentenced for ten years only,
there remained 435 sentenced for fourteen years and
upwards in England and Wales. Taking the same
proportion for Ireland and Scotland, the total was
about 800. This left a little margin within the number
the colony would be able to receive ; but as, hitherto,
the discretion of the judges had led many who were
liable to 14 years or longer being only sentenced to 10,
and as this would not be the case under the altered state
of the law, the number sentenced for the longer period
would probably be rather increased. He therefore
thought that they should only leave as subjects for
transportation, those who were now liable for 14 years
and upwards, including cases of receiving stolen goods,
outrages, assaults on the person, attempts to do grievous
bodily harm, house breaking, burglary, cattle stealing,
and matters of that sort. The only remaining question
was, what should be substituted as a punishment for the
remainder. It had been the practice for some time, for
a great number of those sentenced to transportation, not
to be transported. Instead of this they were imprisoned
for a certain time on the separate system, were then em-
ployed on public works, and then, after a certain time,
were either transported or not. At present, a prisoner
sentenced to 15 years' transportation might be employed
all that time on the public works ; but in point of prac-
tice it had never been done. The only effectual course
would be to pass upon those who would otherwise have
been transported, a sentence as little varied as possible
from that which had been usual. The course had been
always this : where a party was sentenced seven years,
ordinarily speaking, he was imprisoned for a year ; then
he was sent to the public works for one or two years,
either to the hulks, Dartmoor, Portland Island, Pem-
broke, or other places; and then he was sent abroad
with a ticket of leave. This, unfortunately, could be
done no longer. He had endeavoured to come as near
as possible to it. Those who would have been trans-
ported for seven years, were now to be kept in penal
servitude for a term of four years; those transported
for 10 years would undergo a penal servitude of six
years ; those for 15, one of eight ; and those above 15,
one of 10 years. The bill then went on to explain that
the persons so sentenced would be liable to be dealt
with—after their service on the public works they were
to be sent to any place either in or out of the kingdom,
including Bermuda, Malta, or Gibraltar. The question
lay in a very narrow compass. Two propositions were
to be established—what number of convicts they could
continue to send to the colonies, and how they could
beA deal with those who were not so sent. He had
had one or two communications urging him to do no-
thing in this matter, on the ground that there were
statutes in existence enabling the Crown not to trans-
port those who had been sentenced to transportation.
This would certainly enable the Crown to make a selec-
tion of those to be sent to the colonies ; but weighing
the advantages and the disadvantages together, it
seemed to him a very scandalous thing that sentence of
transportation should be passed upon 5,000 people at
the various sessions and assiaes, when it was well known
that not 1,000 would be transported. (Hear.) That
was an inconvenience which outweighed almost every
other that could be suggested.
Earl GREY did not intend to oppose the second read-
ing, for, although he concurred in thinking that trans-
portation was the most useful secondary punishment
they possessed, he was bound to admit it had already
been decided that its use, at least to a great extent,
should be discontinued. He agreed that they ought to
bring the practice as nearly as possible to the rigid en-
forcement of the sentences actually passed ; and there-
fore something of the kind proposed by his noble and
learned friend must be adopted, because there was nothing
else that they could adopt except what was called
in the bill " penal servitude." At the same time,
he had been greatly disappointed that the noble and
learned lord had not given a fuller explanation of the
manner in which her Majesty's Government intended
to deal with this most difficult of difficult subjects • and
he felt, moreover, that some of the provisions of the bill
were open to objection. He should have liked, in the
first place, to have been told what was the course that
the Government intended to adopt with respect to ex-
tending the existing prisons at Portland and Dartmoor,
or what new prisons were intended to be formed. He
should have liked to have had some calculation given
the house of the expense to be incurred, and also to have
been informed whether the Government had already
begun to take the necessary measures to provide for the
disposal of the convicts who were no longer to be trans-
ported. Above all, he had anticipated that the noble
and learned lord would have satisfied the house upon a
point upon which many questions had been asked by
himself (Earl Grey) and other noble lords, when the sub-
ject was last before them, namely, what was to be done
with the convicts who, under the existing law and prac-
tice, had been taught to expect, that, at a given period,
they would he released from the severities of Dartmoor
and Bermuda ? In the course of one of the first conver-
sations which had taken place upon the subjcot this 6eS-
sion, he (Earl Grey) had stated his opinion that there
would be between 3,000 and 4,000 of such persons to be
disposed of during the present year. The noble duke
(the Duke of Newcastle) contradicted him on that occa-
sion, and said that the real number would not be much
more than half that. Of course he (Earl Grey) bowed to
the noble duke's superior information ; but he had after-
wards moved for returns upon the subject ; and really,
with those returns in his hand, he could not now see how
his calculation could have been wrong. The total number
of convicts removed to the Australian colonies with tickets
of leave last year had been 3,735, and the year before
3,182 ; and he was aware of no cause in operation to
reduce that number. On the contrary, the natural pre-
sumption was that it had not yet reached the maximum,
and there had in fact been a progressive increase during
the previous years. (Hear, hear.) When he (the noble
earl) was Secretary of State, he wrote to the different
colonies telling them that they would not be permitted
to send convicts any longer to the penal settlements, and
he advised them, therefore, to endeavour to improve
their system of secondary punishments. Amongst the
measures he recommended to them for that purpose was
a plan of the kind he had described; and that was adopted
by the Legislature of Barbadoes. The system had been
found to answer extremely well there, and he did not
see any reason why it would not work as well in the
mother country. He would not trouble their lordships
with any further remarks upon the bill, except to say
that although he had asked many noble lords if they
understood the 12th clause, he had not succeded in find-
ing one that could do so. That clause proposed to enact
that transportation should include "banishment beyond
the seas." What did that mean 2
The LORD CHANCELLOR explained that the clause
had been inserted, because he had found that by the
Scotch law there were some few offences that were
punishable by "banishment beyond the seas."
Lord BROUGHAM greatly regretted that transpor-
tation was about to be in any large degree abolished,
because it possessed many advantages which belonged
to no other secondary punishment whatever. In the
first place, it was as easily apportionable to the offence
as any secondary punishment could be. In the next, it
had a reformatory tendency, which no other punishment
possessed to an equal extent. Thirdly, it bad ter-
rors which no other system could inspire ; and, lastly, it
relieved the community from a number of offenders,
the turning loose of whom upon society he could
not contemplate without some apprehension. It appeared
from the valuable work of the noble earl who bad last
spoken, entitled, "The Colonial Policy of Lord J.
Russell's Administration," that there were no fewer
than 48,000 persons in the different colonies who origi-
nally were sent out under sentence of transportation.
Forty-eight thoesand convicts withdrawn from society,
and in some degree reformed, or, at all events, prevented
from contaminating the community—that, at all events,
was a fact which greatly increased, in no small degree,
his regret and alarm at the discontinuance of transpor-
tation. (Hear, hear.) However, it was a good old
maxim that when they could not have what they liked,
they must try to like what they had, and that ought to
induce them to cherish, with a view to improving as
much as possible, the system of secondary punishments
which they already possessed. He thought there was a
great deal of sound sense in the recommendation of the
noble earl (Lord Grey), and that some such modification
as the noble earl had described ought to be introduced
into the plan proposed by the Government. No doubt
it was quite true that at present a great anomaly did
exist, and that it was necessary to terminate it as soon
as possible. At the same time, it was equally desirable
to retain the good that did result from the present prac-
tice. Whatever system of secondary punishments
might be substituted in the place of transportation, his
anticipations regarding its effect in deterring others
from the commission of crime were, lie confessed, ex-
tremely small. According to his view, prevention was
that to which a law giver would direct his attention,
and if ho were to state that education was one of
the best preventives, he should only be stating that
which now-a-days was an unfruitful truism. He
considered, however, infant training as the most im-
portant of all preventives. The criminal population
consisted !of a certain proportion of the entire popu-
lation, and if they had a sufficient number of infant
training schools for the children of the criminal popula-
tion, they would bo adopting one of the most effectual
means they could to prevent crime. Another requisite
was a good police. One great objection to the extension
and improvement of the police was the expense. He
believed the expense would be cheerfully borne. An-
other was the distrust which might be thereby occa-
sioned, but which he believed would be confined to the
dishonest part of the community, Another means of
prevention was reformatory institutions. That had
been tried in this country, in a town in Warwickshire,
and it had been found there to be very successful. He
trusted that Government would consider there various
means of prevention, and adopt them as far as prac-
ticable.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE regretted, in common
with other noble lords who had spoken, the necessity of
reducing the punishment of transportation to its mini-
mum. He concurred with them in the advantage of
the present system. There seemed, however, to be an
agreement on all hands that out of regard to our colo-
nies it was necessary to reduce this punishment. He
hoped that out of this evil good might yet come, for lie
could not help thinking that, with the cessation rof
transportation to the extent to which it was now carried,
the Government and the whole inhabitants of the coun-
try would turn their attention to the improvement of
our penal system. Re did not anticipate that this bill

now on the table would be by any means the last that
would be brought in on the subject. The noble earl ob-
jected to limiting the term of transportation. The reason
was twofold. In the first place, those who had watched
the progress of penal servitude, as it was called by this
bill, were of opinion that the time now allotted would be
too great for the endurance of criminals, and would be a
much heavier amount of punishment than that for which
it was substituted. In the second place, as their lord-
ships were aware, sentences of seven years' transporta-
tion had not been ordinarily carried into effect, but the
convicts had been liberated after three years' punish-
ment. Two years was the minimum, but three years
was the average. It was proposed by this bill to award
four years, which was in effect a year longer than a no-
minal seven years' transportation. At the same time it
was worthy of consideration whether they should not in
the first instance award a heavier punishment, with a
power to the executive to shorten the period as a reward
for good conduct. Another suggestion by the noble
earl was whether the ticket of leave system, which had
worked so well in the colonies, might not work well in
this country. The attention of Government had been
turned to that point, and his noble friend on the wool-
sack would make a proposition respecting it on going
into committee. One difficulty was whether the con-
victs should have tickets of leave given them to live
under surveillance in any part of the country, or whether
they should be permitted themselves to select their re-
sidence in any part of the country, or in any particular
county or district. That was under consideration.
Public works which were now going on, defensive works
and harbours of refuge, facilitated a measure of that
kind. His noble friend (Earl Grey) asked what was
proposed to be done with regard to those criminals who
had already been sentenced to transportation, and to
whom promises had been made by announcements hung
up in the prisons, that they should be sent to the colo-
nies with tickets of leave. He thought his noble friend
at the head of the Government had already answered the
question, but he would repeat that if this bill passed in
the form in which it now stood, they would suffer no
longer punishment in the prison than was provided to
future prisoners. That would apply only to culprits in
the prison to whom promises had been made. They had
accumulated, but were no longer increasing, as the pro-
mises were withdrawn as soon as it was ascertained that
the punishment of transportation was to cease. With
regard to the capability of the prisons to hold an in-
creased number of prisoners, he apprehended there
would be no difficulty, and that it would not be ne-
cessary to incur any expense before Parliament met
next year.
Lord CAMPBELL cordially supported the second
reading of the bill. The principle of the bill he took to
be to make law and practice correspond. There had
been for years past a lamentable discrepancy between
them, which had rendered the administration of justice
painful on many occasions. He himself, when called
called upon to pass sentence, had felt inwardly that it
was a mockery. This bill substituted reality for fiction.
When he said he approved of the bill, it must be under
the well understood protest, that this was not the re-
quiem of transportation. Transportation on its present
scale could not continue. He had never said that we
could continue to force convicts on Van Diemen's Land,
but he had said and should ever say that transportation,
in the language of his noble friend, who opened this
discussion, was the best secondary punishment that ever
was invented. And when he agreed to this bill, it must
be understood to be without prejudice to the Govern.
ment using efforts still to continue transportation. At
the present time they would only have Western Aus-
tralia, but he thought new places might be found. He
was told by those conversant with the subject, that
there were other spots on the great continent of Australia
to which they might advantageously send convicts, and
it might be done to the Falkland Islands. He hoped
that Government would use their best efforts to continuo
transportation in that way.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE hoped that there
would be some clearer statement as to what was to be
done with the convicts to whom promises had been
made, because he understood that from 800 to 1,200
would be let loose upon society in this country.
The bill was then read a second time.
CHANCERY SUITORS RELIEF BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
SAVINGS BANKS ANNUITY BILL.

The house went into committee on this bill.
The clauses were agreed to after a brief conversation,
in which Earl Powis, Earl Granville, and the Lord
Chancellor took part, and the house having resumed,
the bill was reported forthwith.
The Bishop of OXFORD presented a petition from
Bang praying their lordships to reconsider the laws re-
specting Scotch ordinations.
Their lordships then adjourned at a quarterpait eight
o'clock.

HOUSE OF COIVIMONS--(YESTERDAY.)
The house resumed at six o'clock.

Lord John Russell was amongst the earliest in attend.
ance, and appeared perfectly recovered from his late ill.
ness.

THE IRISH SOAP DUTY.

Mr. DAVISON, pursuant to notice, asked the Secretary
of the Treasury, whether the Government meant to per-
severe in their contemplated measure of prohibiting for
ono year, from the sth of July instant, the Irish manu-
facturer of soap from exporting soap to England, whilst
the English manufacturer was to be permitted to export
soap to Ireland during that period, to the manifest injus-
tice of the Irish trade ?
Mr. WILSON replied that the notice prohibiting the
export of Irish soap for a year after the reduction of the
duty, had been given in consequence of its having come to
the knowledge of the Government that extensive prepara-
tions for the manufacture of the article were going for-
ward, as it was supposed for the purpose of obtaining the
drawback on exportation. The warning which his notice
conveyed to the Irish soap makers had however been suffi-
cient ; and a very small increase in the quantity made for
exportation had taken place • and it was not therefore
intended to delay the operatlon of the bill in regard to
Ireland beyond the period originally intended.
IMPROVEMENTS IN ARMY CLOTHING AND

ACCOUTREMENTS.
Lord W. GRAHAM asked the Secretary-at-War who
ther any measures were in progress, or under consideration,
for altering the dress, or diminishing the weight of the
accoutrements of the infantry soldier ?
Mr. S. HERBERT stated that several suggestions had
been made with the view of improving the dress and re-
ducing the weight of the accoutrements of the army, and
the attention of Lord Seaton having been called to the
subject, he had instituted some experiments as to whether
any alteration could be made with advantage in reference
t D the nature of the accoutrements and the weight to be
carried, and there was reason to hope that those experi-
ments would result in a reduction of the weight of the
aims and kit, and in other improvements. (Hear.)
THE FRIENDLY SOCIETIES' ACT (IRELAND).
Mr. DAVISON, referring to the refusal of the Attorney-
Gaaeral for Ireland to register an Odd Fellows Society
under the Friendly Societies' Act, on the ground that it
was a secret society, asked whether any measure was in
coitemplation to place Odd Fellows lodges in Ireland in
the same position as other benefit societies
Sir J. YOUNG replied that his attention not having
been drawn to the point, he had had no communication
with the law officers of the Crown in Ireland in reference
to it.

PETERBOROUGH ELECTION
Mr. G. W. FITZ WILLIAM inquired of the hon. mem-
ber for Manchester whether he intended, in accordance
with his notice, to bring under the attention of the house
a petition he had presented some timo back, from certain
electors of Peterborough, complaining of the exercise of
undue influence at the election for that borough in No-
vember last ; and if so, when ?
Mr. BRIGHT said that the reason he had not brought
the question before the house was that an accident, the
particulars of which he need not detail, had prevented his
receiving the necessary information on which to found a
motion for an inquiry as he proposed. In a day or two he
hoped to be able to renew the notice.
RUSSIAN OCCUPATION OF MOLDAVIA AND

----....................aa....r....m.••
the Isle of Aran customs duties. He had seen deputations
from the House of Keys since Friday, and haviir, heard
their statements, had prepared a Treasury minute an-
swer, showing that they had greatly misunderstood the
object of the Government proposition, and until full op-
portunity had been given to consider that minute he did
not intend to proceed with the measure.
THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said he understood the Chancellor
of the Exchequer to have stated that the committee on the
India Bill should conclude at a certain hour that evening,
and then that the report on the Succession Duties Bill
should be brought up. He wished to know at what hour
that course woculd be taken ?
Lord J. RUSSELL—that depended on whether the re-
port on the Succession Bill was to be received without dis-
cussion or not. If there was to be any discussion it had
better not be brought on at a late hour.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said it was the intention of an
hon. friend of his to move an amendment on the bringing
up of the report.
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to intimate that the
Succession Bill could not be brought on.

THE INDIA BILL.
The house then went into committee on this bill.
On clause 3,
Mr. V. SMITH rose to propose an amendment to the
clause. He hoped he might entreat the attention of the
house, for the reason that they were placed in an awkward
and unusual position in the discussion of this measure.
Complaints had been made against the Government for not
bringing it on earlier, but he thought there was more just
cause to complain of the Ministry of 1850, who did not pro-
pose the appointment of a committee like that which was
appointed in 1830. (Hear, hear.) Some little blame was
also to be laid on gentlemen opposite, on their mode of
opposing the bill. The noble lord the member for Lynn
moved an amendment asking for delay in legislating, and
the result was, that the discussion on the question of delay
was mixed up with the question of the second reading,
and they had never really discussed the principle of the
second reading. He, therefore, made no apology to the
house for now inviting them to a discussion on the prin-
ciple of the measure. The question which was decided the
other night was whether they would go into the conside-
ration of the bill, and he had voted for going into that con-
sideration. Another question was what was called the
question of double government. He agreed with the
noble lord the member for Lynn that no phrase was ever
invented with less meaning. It was, in fact, invented by
the enemies of the system, as it implied a confused govern-
ment. But it really was a mixed government, with an in-
dependent body acting as a check on the power of the
crown. That body should, therefore, be really independent
if it was to be such a check, and to make it so was the ob-
ject of his amendment. He did not wish to counteract the
principle of the bill, but to carry it fully into effect. With
regard to his (Mr. V. Smith's) amendment, the vote would
be taken on the omission of the words, " her Majesty
by warrant under the royal sign manual," and he
proposed to insert the words, " the Court of Directors
by warrant from her Majesty under the royal sign
manual, countersigned by the President of the Board of
Control, shall appoint.' The honourable member for
Montrose said this would be a mode of self-election ; no
doubt it would be, but with the qualification that
they would be men who had been ten years in India.
This selection was limited to the appointment of three-
fourths of the court, and excluded directors and ex-direc-
tors, and if it was thought advisable, he would have no
objection to limit the choice to those who had returned
from India within a given period. With regard to the
opinions and authorities on this point, he might state that
Lord Hardinge had said that he thought that for every
two directors put into the court by the proprietors, there
might be one put in by the court itself, taken from mem-
bers of the Indian service. Mr. Halliday, that valuable
Indian servant, hesitated about giving his opinion on the
English government of India, but, on being pressed, said
that he had heard it proposed that the Indian directors
should be nominated partly by the Crown direct Ors, and
partly by the holders of Indian stock ; but he inclined to
the mode of election as it at present existed, but with one-
third or one-fourth chosen by the directors themselves.
The same opinion was expressed by Mr. Marshman, who
thought that part of the court should be elected by' the
directors themselves, the minister for India having a
" veto" on the nomination. In the plan proposed the only
object seemed to him (Mr. V. Smith) to be to insert nomi-
nees into the direction, so that by degrees they might be
the means of superseding the Court of Directors altoge-
ther. It was as it were getting in the small end of the
wedge. He did not mean to say that was his right hon.
friend's intention, because if it had been he would have
declared it ; but other persons might take up that princi-
ple, and it was on that ground that he (Mr. V. Smith) ob-
jected to it. The right hon. gentleman then proceeded to
say that he was decidedly in favour of a mixed govern-
ment, which, cumbrous as it appeared, was a better colo-
nial government for India than the government of any
other colony, and was far superior when compared with
the government of any colony where there was a native
population. It was on behalf of a mixed government that
lie asked their votes, and it was because he believed that
the system of nominees would destroy the power of the
°heck which the Court of Directors was intended to be that
he moved his amendment. The right hon. gentleman then
moved to omit in the clause the words, " It shall be law-
ful for her Majesty by warrant under the sign manual to
appoint," in order to substitute the words " The Court of
Directors by the consent of her Majesty under her royal
sign manual, countersigned by the President of the Board
of Control, to appoint," &c.
Sir C. WOOD thought it would be more convenient for
the committee to avoid a general discussion on the past
Government of India, and other topics introduced by his
right hon. friend, which did not bear on the precise ques-
tion raised, and to which he proposed to confine himself.
They had agreed the double government should be main-
tained, and all that they had to decide was in what shape
certain persons should enter the Court of Directors, An.
other point had been agreed on—namely, that by some
other means than election by the Court of Proprietors a
certain portion of the future courts should be introduced
into it. The evidence that had been received went strongly
to point out a great defect in the constitution of the Court
of Directors—namely, that the ablest men--men of the
highest character and experience among Indian servants—
were deterred by the arduous and expensive system of
canvassing from offering themselves as candidates for the
direction; and it was apparent, from the concurrent evi-
dence of many witnesses, that by some means or other a
portion of the court should be selected from such men. In
order to simplify the question, he would concede that one-
third of the court shold be introduced either by selection
or nomination, and the question was, whether it should
be done by such a selection as was proposed by his right
hon. friend, or by nomination by the Crown. His right
hon. friend had raised an objection td the mode adopted
by the Government on the ground that the persons to be
appointed were nominees. It, was not until after great
deliberation, that it was decided to adopt that plan. If
the Court of Directors were to be independent, it was the
interest of the Government to make them so. They might
be wrong in the mode of doing that they had adopted.
He admitted it was a fair subject for discussion, but he
still thought that the plan chosen by the Government was
the best calculated to preserve the independence of the
court. His right hon. friend said that self-election by the
board was objectionable, and he (Sir C. Wood) thought so
too, as it would tend to destroy the independent action of
the court. It should always be an object to treat a min-
ority with respect ; and, practically, to leave to a minority
a certain amount of check over a majority; and obviously
the scheme of the right hon. gentleman would have the
effect of placing in the hands of the majority a power
to sink and crush the minority by the overwhelming
introduction of their own partisans. That, certainly,
would be the result ; and only to a very limited ex-
tent indeed would the veto of the Crown be of use in
preventing such an evil. With regard to what the
right honourable gentleman had said of the dangers
of the proposal of the Government occasioning dissensions
between the directors and the Board of Control, all he (Sir
C. Wood) could say was, that he did not foresee that dan-
ger, and that, at any rate, he was quite sure the plan of
the right hon. gentleman would be far more productive of
such mischief. Supposing that the minority in the court,
and that the Board of Control were on one side, and the
majority of the court against the Board of Control,,
then
dissensions could not buarise when the majority increased
its strength. (So we understood the right hon. baronet,
but it was, as usual, difficult in the gallery to catch his
precise meaning.) In this respect the plan proposed by
the Government was greatly superior, for the sole object of
the Board of Control would be to select men of marked
qualifications, and such appointments would 'consequently
in each case be decided upon without reference to the state
of retrties or cliques in the Court of Directors. The right
hon. gentleman had said a good deal with respect to the
possible dependence of these nominee directors on the Go-
vernment. He (Sir C. Wood) did not believe that any
such dependence would ever exist. The sole object of the
Government would be to get men of first-rate capacity,
knowledge, and experience; and certainly they were not
to look for such men to the classes of retired Indian ser-
vants who might consent to act as manageable tools to the
Minister in the House of Commons. Undoubtedly, it was
his opinion, that the Government of the day, which would
make such appointments, would be guilty of betraying its
high and sacred trust in the most disgraceful manner. He
did not agree with his right hon. friend on the question of
salary. In talking on that head, he (Sir C. Wood) had
always contemplated low amounts; and his notion was
that the emoluments of the office ought not to be such as
to make it on that ground a matter of petitioning to the
Government. He wanted the office to be sought for on
other grounds. The office was held now for little or no
salary, and he only proposed to raise the salary a small
degree higher ; and he believed that by low salary this,
among other results, would be produced—that the men
who would accept the office would be of independent
character and position. He also differed with the right
hon. gentleman in regard to the contingency of. English
party politics being mingled in the practical adminis-
tration of Indian affairs. He did not think it very likely that gentlemen arrived in England after long service in
India, and still devoted to Indian questions and wrapt
up in Indian interests would easily get engulphed
in purely English politics ; and, assuredly, if there was
one fact more clearly made out than another in the evi-
dence taken by the committee, it was this—that the civil
service of India was totally free from the feelings aroused
by party contentions in England. He therefore did not
fear that Governments here, in the men they selected,
would make party choices ; but even if there was that
danger, it was to be remembered that the evil would in
some measure cure itself, since, consequent upon our rapid
changes, one Government would be enabled to counteract
the party influence which might be introduced by another.
Unanimity in the directors was not likely, and he thought
it was not desirable that there should be but one party in
the court any more than it was desirable that there should
be but one party in that house. And if the apprehensions
of his right friend that there would be party struggles
were well founded, the more reason there was that it
should not be put in the power of a majority to select one-
third of the court from among its own partisans. The
Government did not propose that there should be any dif-
ference in position and authority between the two classes
of directors, the elected and the nominees ; and as both
would be directly, and in the first place, guided by their
Indian habits and feelings, he did not see what likelihood
there was that those selected by the Crown would stand
out from their own body as dependent tools of the Board
of Control. On the whole he was sure this part of the
scheme would work satisfactorily ; and he believed it would
prove that the highest and most illustrious names in the
Indian service—even such a name as Mountstuart Elphin-
stone—need not disdain the acceptance of such nomineeship
by the Crown. The safety for India and for the Court of
Directors, and for this country was, that it was so much
the interest of the Government to appoint first-class men,
second-class, and possibly dependent men were not likely
ever to get the office ; and on that ground he asked the
committee to reject the amendment.
Mr. HERRIES was understood to say that ho found his
own views on this point very accurately expressed in the
amendment, which ho would accordingly support, rejoicing
that the opposition to this part of the Government plan was
initiated on the ministerial side of the house. He did not
see how it would be possible for a body constituted as the

_
court would be under this bill, to work harmoniously'
together. It was all very well to talk of low salaries and
high characters, but it was palpable that the office would
be greatly sought after, and it was as palpable that the ten-
dency of the men appointed would be to support the mini-
ster to whom they were indebted for the post. The effect
of the introduction of non-elected men into the court would
be to lower the character and prestige of the elected body;
for, pro tank), it was a declaration by Parliament that the
proprietors did not elect the best men ; while, on the other
hand, there would always be the suspicion attaching to the
nominees that they were mere Government partisans, so
that, on the whole, the whole body would suffer in public
estimation. Very likely their legislation led to the com-
plete deprivation of the holders of stock of all power ; but,
at least, while the Court of Directors was maintained, let
it be maintained in all honour and credit. These were
obvious objections to the ministerial plan. They seemed
not to have been weighed sufficiently by the right hon.
gentleman (Sir C. Wood), and had certainly not yet been
removed. He must therefore earnestly beg of her Ma-
jesty's Government that they would consider this matter.
Mr. LOWE argued, from what had occurred in other
cases, that a right of sanction would practically become a
right of appointment, and that nothing would be gained
by making these directors appear to be elected by the
Court of Directors, while they were really nominated by
the Board of Control. The effect would be to minimize
the responsibility of the President of the Board, while
actually leaving the power in his hands. But if the
amended plan were worked out as desired, the veto of the
Crown would not improve the character of the candidates,
unless it were extended to every election until the desired
man were presented, and this would amount to Crown
nomination. The tendency of things under the act was
to increase the influence of the directors, in regard to elec-
tions, as compared with that of the proprietors ; and it
might therefore not be wise to increase this tendency. The
object of the measure of Government was to obtain the
best men for the directors ; and under the proposed system
there would be an emulation between the Crown and the
company as to whose directors should do the most credit
to their constituents.
Mr. ELLIOT did not think that the hon. gentleman
(Mr. Lowe) had made out a case to show that the system
proposed by Government would render the Board of Direc-
tors more independent, or its opinion of more authority
than at the present moment. It did not appear plain to
him that the alterations proposed by the Government
would render a seat at the Board of Directors acceptable
to that class of men to which the hon. gentleman referred.
The number was to be reduced from 25 to 18 ; now, when
there were 25 directors, the amount of labour cast upon
each was not too onerous ; as, however, the number was to
be reduced, more would be cast upon each director than
gentlemen in the position adverted to by the hon. member
(Mr. Lowe) would be anxious to undertake. If this part
of the bill were carried the house would not stop until the
government of India would be absorbed by the Crown.
The effect of this would be, that the house would continu-
ally intermeddle in Indian affairs—a thing by no meaust)
be desired, for there were not two of its members who really
understood the subject. Even those members who had
evidently worked hard upon the subject had made state-
ments which were far from being accurate.
Lord STANLEY said that the committee ought to con-
fine itself to the question immediately before it—that ques-
tion being whether the plan of the Government or the plan
of the right hon. gentleman was best calculated to secure
the most efficient and independent men on the Board of
Directors. The plan of the right hon. gentleman was that
of self election, for which there was no precedent. His
objection to that plan was that it tended to give perma-
nence, if not perpetuity, to that very system which it
was the object of the bill to do away with. Neither did
he altogether approve of the Government plan, and he
thoughethat, without trenching on the principle on which
it was founded, it was susceptible of improvement. When
these members were appointed by the crown, and had seats
in that house, they would become, he would not say the
tools, but the allies of the Government. Now he thought
that if these directors wore appointed for a term of ten or
twelve years, and were not re-eligible at the end of that
period, they would have a sufficient guarantee for their in-
dependence. (Hear.) He offered this as an improvement
on the plan of the Government, which, however, he would
support in preference to the plan of the right hon. gentle-
man. (Hear.)
Mr. HUME said he should vote for the principle of elec-
tion in preference to the principle of nomination, which he
was altogether opposed to ; but the election which he
should prefer was that kind of election by which the East
India Company had been and was now maintained.
(Hear.) The right hon. gentleman the President of the
Board of Control had so strongly painted all the advan-
tages which accrued from the system as it stood, that he
felt at a loss to understand the reasoning on which he made
the proposition in the bill. They might remove the defects
which existed in the present system, by making the Court
of Directors really responsible to the proprietors, but they
had no right to destroy rights which had been secured to
the East India Company by the bill of 1833 till 1874. They
were giving the president of the Board of Control a greater
power than was possessed by her Majesty in this country,
because he had the power of making war and spending the
revenues of India to any amount without lotting the Court
of Directors know anything about it. He thought they
should increase the power of the Court of Directors, and
compel them to keep a record of those points on which they
differed from the Board of Control. (Hear.)
Sir J. HOGG said it appeared to him that tho house was
agreed as to the expediency of selection which was the
principle of the bill. He was sure the sole object of the
Government and of the committee was to have those gen-
tlemen in the Court of Directors who could give the best
information on India, and who were best. qualified to dis-
charge their duties. They must either give the selection
to the Crown, or to the Court of Directors. If they gave
it to the Crown, what gentlemen would be candidates for
the office? Every gentleman who thought himself fit for
the appointment would put himself forward as one of the
six to be selected. And they would thus narrow and de-
teriorate the class of men who would come forward as can-
didates. (Hear, hear.) As fax as his experience of the
Court of Directors went, it did not at all accord with the
opinions of those persons who expressed so great a horror
of the system of canvassing. (Hear, hear.) Did not the
members of that house, who spoke of not condescending to
canvass, go about themselves at every election to canvass
for votes ? (Hear, hear.) And there was this distinction
in favour of ,the Court of Directors, that when a member
was once elected and discharged his duties with ability,
efficiency, and honour, he was elected for life. (Hoar,
hear.) Ho could only say for himself and for his colleagues
on the board, that if there had been anything; dishonour-
able or humiliating in the canvass, neither he nor they
would have condescended to it. (Hear, hear.) It appeared,
to him that there were strong objections to the plan of the
Government and also to the plan of the right hon. gentle-
man, and it was for the committee to determine on which
side the balance of advantage lay. Against the nomina-
tion by the Crown of the six directors the objection was
urged, and with some weight, that those directors would
be under the influence of the feeling that they were so
nominated in the discharge of their duties. But for him.
'self, he felt bound to say that he entertained no such
apprehension. He believed that those gentlemen wlio
had passed their lives in the civil or military service of
India, would, when appointed to a seat in the direction,
discharge their duties there honourably, independently, and
uninfluenced by any consideration of the persons who ap-
pointed them. (Hear.) He thought that the suggestion
of the noble lord (Stanley) would make the proposition of
the Government worse than it was, because it would ex-
clude those gentlemen from being se-eligible when, from
the experience they had acquired, their services would
be most useful and beneficial. (Hear, hear.) He under-
stood the noble lord to say also that he would exclude those
gentlemen from sitting in that house, but he did not think
that the Government or the committee would ever support
a scheme of that kind. He admitted that the principle
of self election was also liable to objection, but the Court
of Directors must at all events have a better knowledge of
the men who were most fit to be appointed than the Presi-
dent of the Board of Control could possibly have. (Hear,
hear.) But whether the appointment rested with the ono
or the other, he had no fears on the subject of the practical
working of the plan. It was said it was desirable to have
such men as Lord Metcalfe and Mountstuart Elphinstone
in the board of direction. To be sure it was, and he had
no doubt that if either of those gentlemen expressed a wish
to be members, they would be elected without canvass on
the next vacancy that occurred. (Hear, hear.) But such
men as Lord Metcalfe and Mountstuart Elphinstone were
not to be picked like blackberries. Sir G. Clerk, who was
a m
stated aibeforeof g
rea t talent
the a lent
committeeand distinguished i stthi ote ui si
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him that if he wished he might be elected to the Court
of Directors without a canvass. Heretofore the Court of
Directors had been regarded as the fountain of all honours,
at least of all appointments, and all the servants of the
Company looked up to them on that account. But what
would be the case now, when the Court of Directors
were themselves partly condemned by having some of
their numbers curtailed. (Hear, hear.) They were ex-
cluded from all the nominations to the higher offices.
(Hear, hear.) In the civil service the appointments were to
be made by public competition. (Hear, hear.) It was the
same with regard to the medical appointments. With re-
gard to scientific appointments in the engineers and artil-
lery
these were not made by the Court of Directors. With
regard to Addiscombe, the pupils there underwent a half-
yearly examination and were appointed according to merit.
The great mass of youths who had attained the standard
which fitted them for the artillery went out as cadets—not
as direct cadets but as infantry cadets—and with the ad-
vantage of a good education. For his own part he con-
fessed that he wished to see Addiscombe extended ; he
wished to see a greater number of young men proceed to
India with the advantages of a superior education. Under
the bill the whole of their prestige was taken from the
Court of Directors, all their patronage was trans-
ferred to other hands, and the government appeared
desirous to make the situation of director as little as pos-
sible an object of ambition or solicitation. He would urge
the government to make the office of director as important
as they could. A salary 5001. a-year was not half so much
as one given to a commissioner of customs or excise ; and
he did hope that either by position, by influence, or by
salary—by some means or other, the office of director
would bo made an object of honourable ambition to emi-
nent men who had returned from India.
Mr. C. BRUCE said it appeared to him that there was
no clause in the bill which would lead more directly or
more distinctly to the extinction of the Court of Direc-
tors, and of the system of government which had hithertoo
preserved India to this country, than the clause then
under consideration, The speech of his honourable friend
this rash and tinkering treatment of India.
(Sir J. Hogg) had clearly proved the disadvantage of
hear.)of
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who wished to attain the office of director. Ho could
not see the force of the objection, and for his own part, he
would rather canvass such a body as the Court of Pro-
prietors than wait about the Board of Control. ('fear,
hear.) It seemed to be forgotten that the Court of Pro-
prietors had the great advantage of not being a political
body; and the plan of nomination would, in his opinion,
take away that quality. When the number was reduced
to 18, and the Goverment had six nominees, there would
be an end of all hope of seeing the directors act as an
effectual check on the Government at home. What was
wanted was a body as free as possible from political bias—
a body which would have a single eye to the good
government of India, and which would not blindly follow
the leading of the President of the Board of Control • and
such a body could not exist under the operation of? this
clause. The clause would, in fact, aggravate an hundred-
fold the despotic system of government which prevailed in
India. Public opinion could not check it for want of
adequate information ; the House of Commons could not
usefully exercise controlling functions; the Ministry could
not be trusted in the matter because it was liable to con-
stant change. He would trust no ministry with the power
and patronage of India. Let him not be told that there
was no cause for apprehension in times of Parliamentary
government. He had not forgotten how Lord Heytesbury
was recalled in 1835. Lord Heytesbury was appointed
Governor-General by Sir Robert Peel, his baggage was on
board, his suite had embarked. In this state of things a
Whig Government succeeded to that of Sir Robert Peel ;
the appointment of Lord Heytesbury was cancelled, aild a