The Sun.
London, England, 1853-08-10 00:00:00

should be, and from a consideration of the habit, the taste,.
and the health of the men the board were induced to give
the preference to rum. The matter had been brought bes„Vs
fore various Boards of the Admiralty, and they had all
concurred in the opinion that the preference ought to be
maintained. With respect to the correspondence which
had passed between the Board of Admiralty and the re-
presentatives of the distillers of the United Kingdom, upon
that subject, he had only to observe that if the hon. gen-
tleman should wish for its production, he (Sir J. Graham)
eould have no objection to accede to his request.
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD wished to ask the right hon.
baronet whether he would be prepared to lay before the
house a copy of the medical report which had been made
upon that subject. He understood that the question had
been referred by the Board of Admiralty to the medical
officers of the navy, with a view to ascertain whether in a
medical point of view rum possessed any advantage over
home-made spirits. It was stated that the report of those
officers was in favour of native spirits, and that, in their
opinion, rum contained deleterious qualities which those
spirits did not possess, while it did not contain their good
thu
xt iiesst
gTpl irciaroet
iwo
ea si
on ot
hdeo
royalubt theoaatvtyh
h amd o
ovrei mg
jeonatt againstowth
the distillers of the United Kingdom ; but those gentle-
menaltahbtaoetl
ytpiNervoai ernrns
principle
been
ealperfectlyeenni
ofadopted
dn unrestricted
ppto
el justified u
iwsnthi fiitcehhde inseeking to obtain the
competitionwascommercial
a direct
h aoo ff
policy of this
ear
Sir
n country.
GRAHAM said that that was not a question of
cou
free trade or of monopoly ; it was merely a
ite question of
what was most conducive to the discipline and t
com-
fort of the men in her Majesty's navy. He was not aware
whether the question of health, as regarded the use of any
particular kind of spirits in the royal navy, had been under
the consideration of any medical officers. But he should
say that if the Board of Admiralty were not competent to
decide a case of that kind, or if their decision was to be
set aside by the House of Commons, the sooner the board
was abolished the better. (Hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHAPLAINS OF PRISONS.
The vote of 407,6071. for the government convict esta-
blishments at home having been read,
Mr. LUCAS said he found that there were 16 govern.
ment prisons in the United Kingdom, eight of which were
in Great Britain and eight in Ireland. He also found that
the systems of prison discipline enforced in the two coun-
tries varied very materially in one important point. He
referred to the provision made for the religious instruction
of prisoners. Upon that subject one arrangement was
adopted in Ireland, and another and a totally different one
in England. That was a question which had recently
become one of very greatly increased importance, because
it appeared that for the future the system of transporta-
tion was to be entirely, or almost entirely, abolished, and
that convicts should, in nearly every case, undergo their
punishments in prisons. Under the system of transporta-
tion to the colonies, the principle of perfect religious
equality had been adopted, and all convicts had received
religious instruction from clergymen of their own faith.
That practice had been established by the present Earl of
Derby when Colonial Secretary, and that noble earl
had, in the year 1847, delivered a speech in which he had
expressed his gratification at the good results which had
been attained by the adoption of such a ,course. But
as the system of transportation was about to be abo-
lished, he (Mr. Lucas) wished to know whether
that mode of conducting the religious instruction
ca
prisons
use
he i n w
aGs r eaat w
of convicts which had worked so well in the colo-
nies was to be introduced into the government
arßerittetn.the liperacsaitidceinwhaircehaht
had adßriptairevna,ilbeed
in the penal colonies a-
ong since been adopted, and was
at present in force in Ireland. In the Irish government
prisons the arrangement was •
this—and it was one so sim-
ple and reasonable that nobody must wonder how w
any
other had been adopted elsewhere—thatprisoners when en
first placed in the gaols were entered according to the re-
ligions which they professed, and pri •
soners of every re-
ligious denomination received the
ministrations
of chap-
lains, whose salaries were paid by the state. In the votes
for the Irish prisons there were included votes for Church
of England, Roman Catholic, and Presbyterian chaplains ;
and so completely was the principle of perfect religious
equality carried out in the Irish prisons, that Roman
Catholic chaplains gave certificates of good conduct to
Roman Catholic prisoners just as Protestant chaplains
gave certificates of good conduct to Protestant prisoners.
In the Irish prisons no temptation whatever was held out
to Roman Catholic prisoners to practise hypocrisy. But, in
the English prisons, the case was very different, and there
the Protestant chaplain alone was known to the law. In
those prisons a Roman Catholic or a Presbyterian convict
might ask for the services of a Roman Catholic or a Pres-
byterian clergyman, and his request would be complied.
with ; but the only person whom it was his interest to con-
ciliate and from whom he could obtain a certificate of good
conduct was the Church of England chaplain. That was a
fact which appeared in the evidence of the Rev. Mr. Kings-
mill, the chaplain of the Pentonville prison. That rev.
gentleman stated that many Roman Catholic prisoners
entered their names as Protestants from a feeling that it
would militate against their interests to have it known that
they were Roman Catholics. He (Mr. Lucas) had further
to state, that in the Government and the county gaols of
Great Britain the Roman Catholics had no service on Sun-
days. This was a matter of extreme importance ; and as
her Majesty's Government had taken the whole manage-
ment of the prisoners at home into their hands, he hoped
the noble lord would assent to the claim which he now
urged. (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON assured the hon. gentleman he
had no need of making apology for having brought this
matter—one of great interest and deep importance—before
the house. He hail also to thank the hon. gentleman for
the courtesy with which he had communicated his views
to him (Lord Palmerston) in private on this subject. He
begged to state, in the first place, that, with regard to the
ditlerence to which the hon. gentleman adverted as exist-
ing between Roman Catholic and Protestant prisoners, it
might be accounted for by the fact that the convicts in the
colonies included all those who came from Ireland as well
as England. He (Lord Palmerston) had issued directions
to the prisons to the effect that, upon the committal of a
prisoner, he be immediately called upon to state what re-
ligion he belonged to, and that his declaration in reply
thereto should be taken as an indication of his religion.
Beyond that, he admitted that the prisoner who made the
declaration ought to be made to know that nothing in re-
gard to his treatment in gaol would depend upon the par-
ticular religious persuasion to which he might belong. The
prisoner would be equally sure of having religions instruc-
tion given him by the clergyman of his own creed ; and
also the prisoner should know that all testimony as to his
good conduct whilst in prison should proceed from his own
religious instructor. (Hear.) What was their object in the
treatment of prisoners? Reformation as far as possible.
How could that reform be effected if religious consolation,
were attempted to be given to men by the clergy of an op-
posite creed? (Hear.) If a man, a Catholic, on entering
prison, called himself a Protestant, he commenced by hy-
pocrisy, and the man's heart was hardened against all in-
struction owing to the conflict he had to endure with his
own previously imbibed opinions. (Hear.) Instruction
to such a man was scattering seed ou a sterile soil. In that
way, the Catholic, instead of spending his time in receiv-
ing instruction, spent it in theological controversy. (Hear.)
It was evident they would defeat their own object if they
did not give to persons of all religious denominations in-
struction in that shape, and coming from that quarter,
which might render it most useful. (Hear.) The hon.
gentleman (.ilr. Lucas) had moved for certain returns, to
which motion he (Lord Palmerston) readily acceded ; and
he should further say he deemed it his duty to carry into
effect those views which he had explained in reference to
the Government prisons. (Hear.) There should be reli-
gious instruction given to the Catholic and Dissenter, as
well as to the Protestant ; and the clergyman imparting
that instruction should have the respect and reward at-
taching to the adequate discharge of those important
duties. (Hear.) With regard to the county prisons he
could not say that some legislative alteration might not be
necessary. To what degree or extent the Secretary of
State had control over them, at present he was not pre-
pared to say ; but, if necessary, legislation would be in-
troduced on the subject. (Hear.) He hoped that state-
ment would be satisfactory to the house. He thought they
should not convert their gaols into proselytising schools,
or arenas of theological controversy, but make them places
for sound moral improvement. (Hear, hear.).
Mr. J. BALL hoped the treatment of juvenile and adult
inmates of English workhouses would not be overlooked,
as they stood as much in • need of spiritual instruction as
the inmates of any of our gaols or prisons.
The report was then agreed to.
WAYS AND MEANS.
After a few words from Col. NORTH, who thanked the
right hon. gentlemen on the Treasury bench for the kindly
manner in which they had acted towards the militia,
The report was brought up and agreed to.
METROPOLITAN SEWERS ACTS CONTINUANCE
BILL.

On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Lord D. STUART wished to know whether it was pos-
sible for Parliament to continue that which had no
existence ?
Lord PALMERSTON wished to inform his noble friend
that, excepting the transformation of man into woman or
woman into man, there was no limit to the omnipotence
of Parliament. (Laughter.) Parliament, therefore, had
power to continue that which had no existence. (Laugh-
ter.) He (Lord Palmerston) originally intended to re-
strict the borrowing power to 500,000/.—namely, 400,0001-
in addition to the 100,0001. already borrowed. How-
ever, on the representations of his hon. friends the me-
tropolitan members, he now proposed to diminish that
sum by one-half—namely, 200,0001., exclusive of the
100,0001. already borrowed. The locality of the Hack-
ney-road was to be included in the improvements, but,
owing to this reduction to the borrowing power several
important works would have to be left untouched until
next session. He now begged to move, " That it be an in-
struction to the committee that they have power to make
provision in the Metropolitan Sewers Acts Continuance
l:1,e
Bill as to monies borrowed, or to be borrowed, under
said acts." (Hear, hear.)
Sir B. HALL complained that the noble lordmbesd taken
a course hardly just or fair to the people of theo_
,untxueriann'd
The noble lord brought in his bill on the 14treh
continuance
it being understood that it was to be a u]
si.it htaho
bill,
person it wasdr e
aerropopowinsigtizzo.
He wished to inform
(Hear, hear.) He athsaer itnd contained
act was passed
the history of this commissions.ewers
1848eubat:house what was
, but an act was sub-
canonatiinnulaBnscle
to abolish the commission of
the greatest dissatisfaction Cher
cframission. It had a greater
sequently passed to continue
reitvtaratlvoatyetaire,
taosfuytxother similar body; they had the
ti„ upon property to the amount of
power'll) dw
e managementr
ot than al levying
vayli mn go
rling, and the rate they had a power to levy
9,500,0 C". ate-- e`a to no less than 250,0001. sterling, 'with
annually amount
onthe par of the rate-
He had had an opportunity of inspecting the
payers.
out any power of interference
minute book of the commissioners, and be found that front
the month of October, 1850, to May, 1851, not a single
entry had been made in these books. The honourable
gentleman then proceeded to detail several important
transactions that had taken place before tho commis-
sioners of sewers, of which there was not the slightest
minute or memorandum, and instanced in one case a sum
of 10,0001. which had been borrowed, of which the
secretary could give no information whatever. This was
the commission which had existed up to the present
day, and which it was now proposed to continue for
some further indefinite period. He reminded the house
that the noble lord the member for Colchester had some
time ago given a positive pledge that a bill would be
brought in early in the present session for the purpose of
doing away with the existing commission. It appeared
that the debts and liabilities of this commission had gone
on gradually increasing, and now amounted to no less a
sum than 174,1861. With regard to the expense of manage-
ment, that also had shown a regular progressive increase,
until it had reached no less than 35 per cent. on the amount
expended, But, at all events, 'they ought to see that the
works executed, which had cost the public so large a sum,
had been well execute
wd. the Vic commission had
toria sewer, and it
executed only one great or k,