The Sun.
London, England, 1838-07-11 00:00:00

IRISH POOR LAW BILL.

Messengers from the Lords here brought back the Po)r-law
(Irt-iat.d) till' tht.irLordship's amendments.

Sir GEORG E GREY—With reference t.o the. motion of
the Hon. Member for Newark—had paid every attention to
the statements of the petitioners to whom he had alluded, and
he was quite ready to acknowledge that all the circumstances
of the late Calf's, var required investigation and great consi-
deration.—( Hear.) With regard, however, to a Commission
of inquiry, he did not see hose it could clear up the subject.
I: appeare Ito him that it would be entirely useless—( Hear)
—and the Govereinent had not Mt that they would be justi-
fied in granting it, especially when they considered that the ob•
ject of such a Commission would be fully as well attained by
the other 'twang which they had adopted.—( Hear.)
An lion. MEMBER here moved that the House be
counted, but there were upwards of forty Honourable Members
present. end
Sir G. GREY resumed. The Right Honourable Baronet
:ben said tl.at all the necessary evidence on bith sides of the
question had been produced, and her Majesty's Government
trusted to the prudence, temper, and perseverance of General
Napier, who bad gone out to the Cape,
to produce peace
end order. Under these circumstance. he was under the ne-
cessity of opposing the motion of the Hon. Gentleman.
The Henee thou divided, when the numbers were
For the motion
Against it
Majority
THE BEER BILL.
Lord FRANCIS EG ERTON then rose to move for cer-
tain returns, and to call the attention of the House to the state
of the law affecting the sale of beer. The Noble Lord said
he had presented several petitions on this subject in the course
of the evening, and if he again alluded to them more particu-
larly it was because he considered that the operation of the
law relative to the sale of beer ought to be looked to both with
reference to its effects in the large towns and the rural dis.
tricts, in both of which, in his opinion, it was most
• injurious
to the community.—( Hear, hear.) The professed object of
those who had pissed the Beer Bill through Parliament, viz.,
the destruction of the brewers' monopoly, had not, he had
every reason to feel assured, been effected—( Hear, hear, hear)
—while the greatest evils had been produced upon the lower
orders of society, every prediction with respect to the in.
creased drunkenness and immorality it would give rise to
among those classes, having been fulfilled to the letter. The
Noble Lord then moved for " copies of any passages from pre-
sentments of grand juries relating- to the working of the Beer
Bill in the years 1836, 1837, and 1838."—( Cheers.)
Mr. K. SANDFORD seconded the motion. One of the
beet-houses of the lowest descri
great evils of the existing system was the creation of small
tion ; kept b men
capital, and who obtained credit from the p largye brewers for
three-fourths of their stock. As one means of obviating the
evil, it might be advisable to provide that no man should sell
beer who was net the brewer of it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
without
p
not
yet convinced by any facts or any arguments that had been '
advanced, that an invasion of' the principle of the law,
as it now stood, would lead to such an improvement in
the morals Of the people as the Noble Lord and those who
thought with him, supposed. He (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) bad always been of opinion that the measure of
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Mernberfor the University•
of Cambridge (Mr. Goulburn) which destroyed the old mo •
uopoly nod opened the trade in beer, was ono of the wisest
and most prudent Acts of the Legislature that he had ever in
his time seen introduced in Parliament.—( Hear, hear.)
He believed that the benefit conceded to the public by
that
le
measure was much greater than any loss that might have
be
re-
sulted in a financial point of view.—( Hear, hear.)
lieeed, too, that the relief which is afforded to a greater
aetr trade
from vexatious interpositions of the excise was
an
great benefit. Entertaining these views of the Beer Ac
,vehrey
t
for one, could never consent to any motion, or an) pro •
of which its principle might be weakened or endangerepdosition,
did not relieve that it had been productive of so great* He
an in-
crease of crime as had been stated.
Mr. FAKING TON expressed his gratitude to the Noble
-
Lord for having brought this subject forward. It was almost
impossible to overrate the seriously prejudicial effect which this
measure had had upon the morals of the people.
Mr. H E could regard such motions as the pr: sent only
as meddling interference with the comforts of the poor.
( Hear, hear.) He did not understand• why the poor man
should not be allowed to drink his pint of beer where and
when he chose, and where he could get it best and cheapest,
whether within doors or without. It was melancholy
• to
see those who were in possession of the highest luxuries
so nnxioua to deprive the poor of every little comfort. In
his opinion they did not look high enough for the evils of
which they complained. fie attrii.uted much of the crime
to the want of education. Ignorance was the root of the
evil. The people were brought up like brute beasts.—(Mur-
mere from the Opposition.) What education was given to
them? Them were a few charities, but the people hail a
right to be educated. They had as much right to education
as they lisd to a provision for the sustenance of the body. Ile
begged the Hon. Gentleman opposite to inform him what
education was afforded to three-fourths of the agriculturists?
The Noble Lord said he had received information from, some
one in London of the demoralisation caused by the Beer Bill.
Would the Noble Lord state who that pasty way? lie (Mr.
Hume) knew that the licensed victuallers had been very busy
in getting up an opposition to the beer shops, and I I
perhaps tne
Noble Lord had had some corn nunicatioe with them. The
Honourable Gentleman referred to some returns, from
which it appeared that within a certain period, duting
which 514 licensed victuallers had been charged by the
ids offence:, only 230 or 240 keepers of heer•
shops had b e.t so chirged. He was prepared to show that
the allegation that the morals of the peoelc were injured by
the beer.shops wag quite unfounded. While they heard so
much of the demoralisation of the pros, no msntion was
msde of the iniceteitict of other classes. Who were the
pat ties who disgracr cl themselves be gross m'seorittet :lout
the period of tl.e Coronation ? Were they not Gentleineu

and Noblemen ?—( Hear, bear.) He deprecated the dispo-
sition which exhibited itself year after year to meddle with
the indulgence of the poor. Nothing bad for a long while
pleased him more than the declaration of the Right Hon. the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, that if they were driven to put
down the beer-shops he should consider it necessary to take
into their serious consideration the propriety of establishing a
free licensing system, giving every man the power of taking
out a license, subject only to certain police regulations. He
should move to-morrow for returns, which would show a very
different result from that anticipated by the Noble Lord.
Lord DUNG.ANNON said that in his neighbourhood it
was found that most of the crime that was committed was con-
certed in beer-shops. He trusted the return moved for would
make out such a case as to induce her Majesty's Ministers to
take the matter up. So strong was his impression as to the
effect of the beer-shops, that he had strictly forbidden any man
to sent such an establishment on his estate. —( Hear, bear.)
Mr. WARBURTON thought if they bad a Committee to
inquire respecting the conduct of the beer-shops, they ought
to have a Committee of the labouring classes to inquire into
the effect of the houses of entertainment generally. " Hear
hear," and a laugh.) No doubt their report would be, that
at clubs and such places there was much more drinking of
champagne and other wines—that people spent time there
which they had much better spend elsewhere--that there was
not a little gambling, &c. He did not deny the necessity of
police regulations, but let them apply equally. He thanked
the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the course he had an-
nounced his determination to take with respect to this:question.
Mr. DARBY said there was scarcely a respectable la-
bourer in the country that did not set his face against the beer-
shops. He deneid that the new beer-shop system was either
a comfort or an advantage to the poor.
Mr. HAWES said, the whole case, as it stood at present,
rested on mere allegation that crime had increased since the
new Beer Act had come into operation. Now this was a
matter which ought not to depend on individual opinion, but
upon facts • and he %yds prepared to show from authentic do-
cuments that, so far from having increased, crime—he meant
that species of crime which was said to result from the beer-
shops—had materially diminished within the last three years,
especially in the counties of Middlesex and Surrey, where not
only the population but wealth had increased, and the induce-
ment to crime also. The Honourable Member in corrobora-
tion of what he had stated read a calculation which had been
officially made as to the state of crime during the last three or
four years, and from this document it appaared that although
forgery and some other crimes had increased within that
period there had been a very considerable diminution of those
crimes which were said to be engendered in beer-shops. He
did not look to the repeal of the new Beer Law Act, or any
other measure of the kind, for the moral improvement of the
people ; but he looked for it in the diffusion of knowledge,
and that extension of the suffrage which would oblige the
upper classes to identify their own interests with the welfare
of the poorer classes ot the community.
Mr. SLANEY said, at present the beer-shop keepers were
literally men of straw, and unless some system of rating as
well as of licensing were adopted it would be impossible to
7ct resrectable persons to engage in this branch of trade. If
the Noble Lord would restrict his motion to the improvement
rather than to the extirpation of beer-shops, he would find a
ready support from many Hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the
House, which at pr,Fent he could not expect to.receive.
Mr. M. PHILIPS ad nittr.d that-there were just grounds
of con-plaint against the new beer-shop system, and it was his
intention next Sesion to move fcr a Committee of It.quiry on
the who', suhicel.

Lord INGESTRIE said that the beer-shops in' his part of
the country had been productive of the worst possible conse-
quence;. They were the resort of the ill-disposed, and crimes
of all kind were concocted in them.

Mr. WALLACE said that if there had been no licensed
victuallers they would never have heard a single complaint
against the beer-shops. He contended that if evil exited,
and he doubted it. that evil was to be got rid of by multiply-
inm the beer-shops ra her than by suppressing them. In was
an exclusiveststemand not a free trade that generated evil.

Mr. VILLIERS denied that the beer.liouses had been
more productive of immorality than the licensed public-houses,
and, therefore, if they w, re to put down the one, common jus-
tice required that they.should suppress the other.
A'ter a few words from Sir JOSIAH JOHN GUEST,
and Mr. BROTIIERTON,
Mr. AG LIONB Y did not think tit It they had any evidence
before them which would justify a Committee of Inquiry; but
still he was obliged to the Noble Lord for moving for returns
which, undo r any view of the case, would be valuable, inas-
much as they would sl:ow whether the evils complained of
existed or not. He thought that it was a great advantage to
the poor to be able to obtain good and wholesome beer at a
cheap rate, and therefore, although he agree.' that some at-
tention should be paid to the character oti the parties keeping
beer-ships, he hoped that Government would not deprive the
poor of this advantage.
Another Hon. Memsea, whose name we could not learn,
said that in the part of Hampshire through which the raiway
passed, the beer-shops bad given rase to no complaints ; and
that. as to imoutati'ms against the Magistrates, they were alto-
gether without foundation.
Mr. PARROTT said, that so far from the Magistrates of
his part of the country finding fault with the New Beer Act.
their opinion was, that it had been productive of very great
benefit to the poor. Instead of paying 4d. or sd. a pot for
beer, it was a great benefit to the labouring poor to be ebbe to
obtain it fur OA. or 2d. ; and, therefore, even if there were
some disadvantages in the present system, the advantages
greatly preponderated.
Mr. HINDLE Y agreed that the subject ought to be inves-
tigated by a Committee of that House.
Lord FRANCIS EGERTON briefly replied, and the
returns were ordered.
BRITISH CLAIMS ON PORTUGAL.
Lord SANDON said that some of the British claimants on
the Portuguese Government had made out so strong a case to
him in the support of their claims, that he felt it his duty to
lay the matter before the House, and he should now do so
under the impression, that it called for the interference of her
Nlajests's Governinent. The Noble Lord said that the mo-
tion with which he meant to conclude was fur the production
of a letter from Genetal Sir John Milky Doyle to Lord
Howard de Walden, requiring his interference with the Go.
vernment of Donna Maria for the purpose of having the claims
of those parties settled. The Noble Lord then a letter from
a British officer, describing the sufferings of the claimants,
and the manner in which their demands had been resisted by
the Government which they had so materially served. The
Portuguese Government, on various pretences, had got re-
ceipts from the men of the Legion, and were now giving
these receipts as evidences against their claims. Commission
after Commission had been appointed to investigate these
claims without any good result ; and even the present Com-
mission, on which so much stress had been laid, was so fet-
tered by the Portuguese Government that it was likely to be
as little efficient as the rest.
Lord PALMERSTON could assure the Noble Lord,
however, that the British Government had not been inatten-
tive to this matter, as our Minister at Lisbon had interested
himself most actively, and had afforded every assistance in his
power ; he frequently held communication with them, and
but for him the present Commission would never have been
appointed. He (Lord Palmerston) could assure his Noble
Friend that he would not fail to pursue this matter, and that,
what .ver influence he had should be exerted for the just es-
tablishment, and as early as possible, of those claims as was
consistent with the resources of the Portuguese Government.
After a few words from Lord SANDON, In reply, the
motion was agreed to.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Sir C. GREY rose to move—" That, notwithstanding the
resolutions of the House on the 24th of November, 1837, or
any other resolutions or orders relating to public business, any
Member be permitted to fix the first day of the next Session
on which Notices shall be entitled to the precedence of Orders
of the Day for moving for the production of any papers." He
should not regret the thinness of the House so long as he could
express his grievance to the Speaker alone—(A laugh)—as he
felt convinced that that Right Hon. Gentleman would not fail
to remedy any grievance which should be satisfactorily proved.
Mr. HUME said the object of the Hon. Member's motion
was already attained, as that on the last day of the Session all
Notices of Motion for the next were printed and published.
The SPEAKER confirmed the statement of the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny.
After a few words from Lord MORPETH,
Sir C. GREY consented to withdraw his motion. .
The motion was then withdrawn.
STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATES (IRELAND).
Sir R. BATE SON moved for a " Return of all the Sti-
pendiary Magistrates in Ireland, specifying their names, sala-
ries, and emoluments, the date of their appointment, their re-
sidence, and the districts under their charge, and for what
counties they hold commissions of the peace."
Lord MORPETH had no objection to the production of
the paper moved for, as he had no desire for mystery or con-
cealment.
After a few words from Mr. Litton, Mr. Jackson, and Mr.
Wallace,
Mr. ELLIS had had a communication with the Lord
Lieutenant of the county of Down, and having learned that
the omission of Mr. Corry's name was still under the consi-
deration of the Government, he did not think that the proper
moment for bringing the matter under the notice of Parliament.
Viscount DUNGANNON advocated the return.
The motion was agreed to.
Mr. BROTHERTON then moved that the House be
counted. but there being more than forty Members present,
Mr. ELLIS moved for a return of the purchases of pro-
perty
for the site of the new Houses of Parliament made by
the Commissioners of Woods, &c., of the sums offered by the
Commissioners to the parties, and of the sums awarded by
verdict of a Jury and otherwise, and the legal expenses in-
curred by the Commissioners in each case, specifying the num-
ber of Counsel employed, and the fees paid to them; also the
number of surveyors employed as witnesses, and the fees paid
to cach of them ; and also the amount of the costs paid by the
Commissioners in each case to the opposite party.
After a short conversation, during which the CHANCEL-
LOR of the EXCHEQUER opposed the motion, the Hon.
Member withdrew ir.

Mr. BROTHERTON again moved that the House be
counted.

Viscount DUNGANNON felt himsell called on to oppose
tlin motion of the Hon. Member.

The motion was wi,hdrawn.
AFFAIRS OF OUDE.
Mr. W. PR AED rose for the purp'se of calling the at-
tention of the House to a subjvct of much importance. At
the 'love of last year the King of Oude. Nussur.od-decn
Hyder, died, and upin his death a person who had for four
scars previously been recognised as his son was appointed
to the throne by the second %%ire of the late King. However,
immediately after the appoint:brut of this young person
to the throne., cur tr.lops interfered. Thry oppos:d

claim of the young Prince to the throne—they turned their
artillery upon the Palace, and threatened that unless he
and all his attendants left the Palace in five minutes, they
would fire upon the Palace. The Prince and his attendants
were not enabled to comply with the request in five minutes,
and accordingly a fire was opened upon the Palace, by which
it was said one thousand persons were killed. In other ac-
counts there was a smaller number named. The young
Prince was then set aside, and a person put upon the throne
in his place. The person who thus replaced the young
Prince is the third son of the late King, and the second son
of the King Akbaloo Dowlah Bahadoor is now in the British
metropolis, claiming the throne which he asserted to be his
right. The father was dead—the youngest son was dead—
aud although the second son was living, the third son had
been placed upon the throne. He (Mr.Praed) wished, there-
fore, to know what considerations induced the establishment of
the third son upon the throne, and if it had any connection
with a pecuniary claim which had been made a few years
before upon the kingdom of Oude ? He had another ques-
tion to ask with reference to this change which had been
effected, namely, whether it had any connection with a former
despatch relating to the Government, or mis- Government, said
to have existed in the kingdom of Oude, and also if it had any
connection with an intention formerly said to exist,upon the part
of the Government, to possess itself of the kingdom of Oude?
He wished particularly to know if, in the regulation of the
succession, any means bad been taken to secure the payment
of those pecuniary claims upon that kingdom which were agi-
tated some time ago. He had shown that there had been
considerable interference, that a Prince who had been recog-
nised for four years previously had been removed from the
throne, that he had been replaced by the third son of the
King whilst the second was still living; and he wished to know
if this interference of the British troops had any connection
with those subjects which he had referred to. The Honour-
able Member concluded by moving for a copy of any commu-
nication from the Court of Directors, or from any of the Com-
mittees of the Court, to the Governor-General in Council,
whereby authority or instruction may have been given to
the Governor-General, for the assumption of the Government
of Oude, from the 30th of July, 1830, to the present time.
Copies of all minutes of the Governor-General and members
of Council in Bengal, and of all proceedings of the Governor-
General in Council, and of all communications from the Go-
vernor-General in Council to the Court of Directors, and of
all communications from the Court of Directors to the GOver-
nor-General in Council ; and of all communications from the
Resident of the East India Company at Lucknow to the Go-
vernor-General in Council, or to the Court of Directors,
relative to the death of the late King of Oude, Nussur-od-
deen-Hyder, and the steps adopted by the Resident of the
Company for the regulation of the succession to the throne.—
Copies of ell memorials addressed to the Governor-General
in Council, to the Court of Directors, or to the Board of
\ Commissioners for the Affairs of India, by any individual
asserting a claim to the "throne of Oude, and the answers
returned thereto.—Copies of all treaties negociated between
the Governor-General in Council and the present reigning
King of Oude.
Sir J. C. 11013 HOUSE said that the Hon. Gentleman
had correctly stated that the present Prince had been put upon
the throne by the British Resident at Lucknow; but he could
assure him that the rumours of the blood that was spilt on that
occasion were most exaggerated, and that, instead of 1,000
then having been killed, the real amount was only thirty-five.
The rrrxt point related to the claims of the Prince who
was now in England. Into all the particulars of that point it
would be useless for him to attempt to enter at that late period
of the night.—( Hear.) From the papers, however, which
he would lay upon the table of the House Hon. Members
would have an opportunity of forming their own opinions upon
that part of the subject ; and he could only say that, so far as
he could judge from having lookel carefully into those papers,
he had no doubt that the Prince now on the throne of Oude
was the legitimate heir to that throne—( Hear)—and that
he was designated by the Rs sident at Lucknow as the suc-
cessor to the late King. He could assure the Honourable
Gentleman that, in the regulation of the succession to the
Throne of that kingdom there had been no stipulation vilst-
ever made a; to the pecuniary claims to which he bad alluded,
nor had there been any intention, by placing tile present
Prince on the throne, to give to the East India Company any
greater claim hereafter to the assumption of the territory of
Oude. So far from the present Prince of Oude giving them
any chance of taking possession of the remaining part
of that territory, of which they had already nearly the half,
such, he believed, was the character of that Prince, that, so
long as he reigned, their chance of doing any such thing
would be exceedingly small. He would now state what
papers he would consent to produce. The only reason why
he objected to the first division of the lion. Gentleman's
motion was, that the papers to which it referred were wholly
relevant to the conduct of the late King of Oude, and as
they were instructions which had never been acted upon, their
production could not possibly lead to any useful result.
They were now a dead letter, and it would not be a good
precedent to publish confidential communications between
the late King and the British Government. As to any
other of the copies moved for he had no objection,
with one or two exceptions, to produce them. He ob-
jected to the production of' a copy of " all minutes of the
Governor-General and Members of Council in Bengal," and
of " all communications from the Governor-General in Coun-
cil, to the Court of Directors, relative to the death of the
late King of Oude," for, as they related to matters that
were now pending, he thought the Honourable Gentleman
would not persist in calling for them. With respect to
the words " any individual asserting a claim to the
throne," he begged to say that he had in his pocket a
letter from another individual, viz., the elder brother of the
Prince, who was now in this country, and in which be put
forth his claim to the throne of Oude.—( Hear, hear.) With
respect to the copies moved for of " treaties negocisted be-
tween the Governor-General in Council and the present reign-
ing King of Oude," he would rather that the word " nego-
elated" should be altered into " ratified;" and, with these
provisoes, he had no objection to lay the papers which the
Hon. Gentleman required upon the table, and would only fur-
ther add that, if they should not appear sufficiently complete,
he was sure that, in this affair, the East India Company, as
well as the Government, both at home and abroad, had acted
with the greatest moderation and propriety.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir J. CARNAC confirmed the statements made by the
Right Hon. Baronet with reference to the number of men
killed on the occasion of the late succession to the throne.

Mr. PR AE D expressed his willingness to accept the copies
moved for with the modifications suggested by the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite.
Sir J. HOB HO USE replied that the document relating to
his designation was dated before the death of the late King of
Oude, and it was certainly not an after-thought of the Resi-
dent at Lucknow.

Mr. PR AED asked if the Right Hon. Baronethad any ob-
jection to give him a copy of the despatch which related to it.
Sir J. HO BHOUSE had no objection to produce that
part of it immediately bearing on what he had just stated,
but no more.

The papers were then ordered as modified by the Right
lion. Baronet.

The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at Half-past One.

HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 10.
The House assembled at half-past Three o'clock, when
Lords De Morley (Mr. Ponsonby) and Carew were introduced
by Lords Meath and Dinorben, when they took the oaths and
their seats upon their elevation to the Peerage.
Their Lordships adjourned during pleasure, and re-assembled
at Five o'Clock.