The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-23 00:00:00

lls Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that if the Chancellor of a
Exchequer now succeeded in breaking down a considers ;
portion of the 500,090,000/. of 3 per Cents., he woult4
enabled at no very distant time to effect a reduction 01 r
remainder on something like the wise principle of the t;
duction effected in 1844. He thought, then, it 11 ty
interest of that house and of the country to suPP°l,d,
right hon. gentleman in his proposition to effect that ..44
and important object. (Hear, hear.) He had elPre':;4
in strong terms his opposition to the principle of incro%
the national debt, but if by doing that to the eaten' ,
3,000,0001. they could, in the course of no distant ti,el
effect the reduction of the debt, as he had no- doubt
.19'i
might, perhaps by the sum of 400,000,000/. it would !,4
immense advantage to the public. Taping the propoon,
of the right hon. gentleman as a whole, and so ultintS'e.i
to reach the remainder of the debt, it was in his opilli
the interest of the house to support it.
Mr. LAING said, the question at issue appeared to hi
to be of the plainest description—whether it was or.,
..,,
desirable to create such an amount of 23 per cent. Peis
nent stock as would servo as a- barometer to test the Et;A i 4
of public credit. He trusted they would be prepar"ss
pay the market price for effecting the commutation its
that stock, but it appeared that the mode in which4l
right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Excne‘,V
proposed to effect it was the most economical that eui,
be adopted. He thought also the ss. over the 21. 15.9i0
terest might well be devoted to the purpose of a 'ina,a,
fund. The hon, gentleman the member for Huntin9
and the hon. and learned member for East Suffolk, gee bls
to think that the 23 per cent, stock would •be so deriy
that none of the Exchequer bonds would be taken ; uel,
believed the probability .to be that they would coinn3oo.
premium. The time was favourable for laying the fotnitvi
tion of a system for the reduction of the national debt. 01
of ultimately getting rid of a great part of our nati°
burdens.
irlii
Captain LAFFAN said that, however desirable it 13'
be, even on a small scale, to create the 24 per cent. s, ;(Is,
'or
and let it go into the market, yet it appeared to be col.
pletely settled that the advantage was not to counter
ci
once the greater disadvantage, in fact and in fee/itte
adding to the nominal amount of the debt. But a sri)
ment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had surP
ilJe
him. The right hon. gentleman had stated that Olio;
question being submitted to an actuary, as to the 3'o
„,1,
value of the two propositions of 821. 10s. 3i Pere4 fel
stock, redeemable 40 years hence, and of 1101. ''% tbl
cent, stock, redeemable 40 years hence, he had given as
value of the latter 911. 13s. 4d., and of the former 961:,,,
Bd. ; being 41. 'it lls. Bd. in favour of the 33 per Cent*
_i 0
He was at a loss to know how the actuary had arriv°`ios
that conclusion ; and it must be observed that the o'oll,
of an actuary, like that of a member of the legal proflee-ler
must depend upon the case submitted to him; but, 0110
deavouring to trace out the principle that had guide tial
actuary to the conclusion he had mentioned, he found
l y, f
ar
the 911. 13s. 4d. was precisely the amount of Consols sOll
that would give a perpetual annuity of 21. 17s. 9d.
hall
respect to the Exchequer bonds, the power of selling `01(
was left undefined by the bill, but he should like to l'„'or
whether they would be authorised to be sold below
above par. ,i.
Mr. J. B. SMITH had no objection to the first prcreel'
tion of the 34 per cent. stock, but he thought the ClOllOl
for of the Exchequer might have gone further ittoor
0
direction, and that the time had arrived when they s.,'
lay the foundation of a system ro.: the extinction, if roil
ble, of the national debt. Ho believed the public eBO
prepared, if necessary, to make a temporary sacr,i°,),
gain that important object. The Chancellor of the x-',D-er
quer had proposed that they should capitalise the °,ltect
ence between the 21. 15s. on the new 23 per cent. `igbl
and the rate they at present paid. He thought the cid
hon. gentleman might have gone a little further and cr°,(o
an amount of terminable annuities ; but that questionf 4,
so important that he would suggest the propriety °i
pointing a committee to consider whether some' .ii,Y
might not be proposed by which a liberal offer nil bsl,
made to the public creditor, alike advantageous l'",10
and to the nation. As to the Exchequer-bonds, by at' all
they were to be redeemable at the end of 40 years, °,l'
option of the holder or of the Government. He ei-,0
rather make it imperative on the holder, leaving thee!
only with the Government. feg/
Mr. J. A. SMITH was one of those who for many ',or
had regretted that more had not been done for the fc' pol
tion of the national debt, and that more attention /o,to
been paid to the subject of terminable annuities, nal
cordially agreed with the hon. member for Stockport itl4
the people of this country would very cheerfully stilnek,l
a temporary sacrifice, in order to have so great a bennllo
some period being fixed for a large reduction °lle/
national debt. As to the measure more immediately °ye,
the consideration of the house, he regretted that thed poi,
member for Huntingdon in his very able speech 11,10 '',l
alluded to the point on which the whole matter of ' boo'
per cent. stock depended. It was known to the it'
it'
member particularly how important it was to begirod
creation of a 23 per cent. stock. It was of the 11`f it,'
importance, with a view to the future reduction ° fit'',
amount of annual charge, that we should begin °;
the creation of a 24 per cent, stock. There inig,'o '''
no -distant period, be a great reduction in the Ysf it'd
money, and means should be provided to °nail 031
Government of the country to take the advantage ° t
such change.
e
Mr. HUME considered that it was a point of Te•,ev.
~ fst
'
importance to break into the capital debt by 61./0 AP),
means, and he was sure the country would submit r ,r,
reasonable sacrifice to effect that object. The Deal,
preach we made to the conversion of our debt into
noble annuities the better.
Mr. WILKINSON did not perceive the enorniri;oo
ce
vantage anticipated by so many honourable ge°,oll
from the creation of a 23 per cent, stock, and `,,lei
it was not an object justifying any addition to the `'.
debt. cbe,
Mr. J. B. SMITH asked if the Chancellor of the :t,ioll:
quer had any objection to lay on the table the ca....th ,
of the actuary which he had read to the house, "t lle'
question on which it was founded? He could :7),
,stake
thinking that it must have been founded on sonze said
The CHANCELLOR of the_ EXCREQ_UP" ~,, quoted the answer of the actuary in answer to P"'
servations of the honourable gentleman opposite.,
object was to show that there were elements in th oi,i,J,
lation which were not reducible to figures, and hey,er
that in what was reducible to figures, if the premi.r,se-:(De
so and so then the results would be so and so. or
actuary did not undertake to calculate the
risk of re lefeutipoll
tion from one year to another, as that must depencie,
q restions of war or peace—upon the ease and prosPe'n ite)
the country, or the reverse. He had only to say, in B'pte
to the honourable member for Montrose, that he iv.. --
tlO
pared to bring up a clause which would give effect t°
proposition he recommended.
On the question being put from the chair,
osti°ll
Mr. DISRAELI rose and said—Sir, when this cliluijoi
came before us first- in the shape of a resolution, as it l't bet
in the shape of a bill, the general impression was tlied
Majesty's Government were about to deal with the°
body of the public debt. (Hear, hear.) That was be
general impression. The sum that was to come untie rOl,l
immediate and contingent operation of the measure 1:001$1
be about 500 millions sterling, and there can bo no of
that when that impression first went abroad, it vine ,o 1
startling. The subject was one of immense interest
vast importance ; as, of course, the unlimited eon°ooo
0011
of the national debt must be considered, if extensive 011
complete, of a character and greatness which nedieicier
calculate—if even on a limited scale, it is still of c°lletipt,
able importance. The popular idea on the subject ii.o 00
in some happy moment, the Minister might reduce tP,e.,,11,1
of interest, if not altogether immediately, yet Par'i‘ o°and ultimately to the interest of 23 per cent, ; °la' ble.
A s
doubt the effects of that operation would be consia r
id° be,
Let the committee bear in mind what the effect iv°e °
lb
Instead of paying, as you do now, the sum of 15 nil 014
sterling a-year, you would save 23 millions, and you iv°ol
only pay 123 millions a-year, and of course the clo'r
would anticipate from that operation the great and ,tio
ficial effects which would accrue from such a roan' be
'
of the national burdens. Now let us see what will „fir
the saving gained by this proposition of the 049t"e-re3
ment. The matter has been slightly altered since' 100
the house, but perhaps the committee will allow. .0911 f
read the sketch I made upon the question as it origin
stood. The Government proposes to create thirty trit l'i'
of stock at 24 per cent., increasing the capital s' alif'
1101., thirty millions more of Exchequer bonds at pa'svit''
440 millions more at 33 per cent., reducing the ee'vol
stock to 821. 10s. Upon the 500 millions, as matterst. the
stand, you pay fifteen millions a year. If the plan Of the
Minister be completed—and I presume to impress o°oo,
committee that in considering any financial propositi4oll
must consider it as completed—we cannot test it wits g 1
assuming its completeness—then the thirty mato",
1001. stock, at 2i per cent. interest, will involve an nae,'
charge of 866,0001.—the thirty millions of Exene'itV
bonds issued at par, and bearing 21 per cent. interest tds
cost 825,0001.—while the 440 millions, bearing 34 Peri:erly
andissued at 821.105., will cost 12,105,000/.—altoget'- the
annual charge of 14,396,0001. If I deduct this fr°m-itto
fifteen millions we now pay, there will be an annual 0 ,_eee C,l
slightly exceeding 600,000/. If, then, the plan of
id V,
vernment be carried into full effect, the result Wild fo;
that this amount of annual charge would be guarantee
° pc°
forty years ; that for'ill that time there could be no ile
sible action on the debt, with the exception of a sllgseer,
duction on the Exchequer bonds; that, with that,!et,io' l
tion, for forty years there could be no greater redo 1
than this 600,0001. a year. Now, I beg the house, beyl ptl,o
they decide on this proposition, to follow me while Olt
before them, as briefly as I can, some notes I 10°000
of preceding operations on the national debt, and it) doe,
the amount saved to the country by preceding o.ll„fejA
with the project of the right hon. gentleman. -1-'O.
I believe, the first conversion of debt took place raos lei
Robert Walpole. He dealt with dividends to the,
~3 der
of 13 millions. The dividends that are now to nytedtbj
with amount to fifteen millions. The saving effee tia a
Sir Robert Walpole on a dividend of 13 millions analot, r
to 324,0001. a year, (Hoar, hear.) The saving 'OOOl
now proposed to be effected upon dividends arn°ooll4,
to fifteen millions is now 600,0001. That is an /MI dee;
consideration—one on which the committee will n°tioolo
it inexpedient to reflect ; and there was no specific 3 ~ the
the act for any guarantee of the interest, which 11
most important point in all our calculations. If, -0
1(0
you contrast the project of the right hon. gentleratt 0
the plan of Sir Robert Walpole in 1727, it is clear rtbsti
do not by the present plan effect an arrangement 0 fg:f
nearly half so beneficial to the country. There 10E/o.'l
ther reduction of debt from 5 to 4 per cent. in the 4feetn
George 11. By it a saving of 340,000/, a.3-ear was vol -:
—more than half of the saving which is now preeripte;,
be effected—and in this ease also there was no gl.11:00, Do,
I am anxious to impress this fact upon the connoTtot 0 0
cause the guarantee is here one of the most imix'"versii,ef
ments in our calculation. Now I will take the c°ll,osl,'"
of debt which occurred in 1749, and which was one" Ceti
Mr. Pelham. He reduced the debt from 4to 3 Per greft.n,
and the saving in that case was 565,000/. ; nearly
ont pi:',4
a saving as will be effected if the whole of the P'loo te.
ject bo carried into effect. I believe that Mr. ret„t 1,,,,t
in this instance—l am speakinc, from memorY"---7,11 14'0,
lievo he did give a guarantee of seven years, but tltiie Vivo
was a very limited guarantee in comparison With all t° se
rantee to which our attention is now called. In
,•tbillg.
conversions, then, the terms contrast favourablyllioi3t e 4
to which our attention is called by the present -we01°;:or .
We approach now to more modern times—to thel to 414'
when Mr. Vansittart reduced the debt from
~, the sio
cent. Let ua see the capital with which he den'",,gili, 8
ing which he effected, and let us consider the s, v, 0,1 Jj'ed
is now proposed to be made. He had to d?toffecL.o
debt of 150,000,0001., and the saving which To aujoure,
amounted to I,2oo,ool.—that is to say, doublettojeet,Poc.
which her Majesty's Ministers by their presentigh itoo
tend to save ; and the guarantee in this case, tn„,rs. iebt,
curved so recently as 1822, was only for seven T..:70 of ot je
committee will observe that in all these concession the I°olo
from the first effected by Sir Rober Walpole t. tho reierti.
1822, the terms were extremely different ,aIT, conlU('
were extremely different from those now under