The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-11 00:00:00

gentry of these two countries leaving this country without
exciting the strongest feelings of resentment on the part
of the gentry and middle orders both of this country
and of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) And I cannot conceive
those who have conducted the education—those who have

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attended the hospitals and institutions for the sick—all at
once going out as exiles from this country, without pro-
ducing in the minds of the lower classes who have received
the benefit of their ministration the strongest feeling that
they are suffering a grievance from the Parliament of this
country. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I believe that our interfer-
ence on this subject is likely to produce bad effects. I can
see no sufficient reason for saying that the general law of
this country is not ample for the protection of the personal
liberty of all the subjects of this country. I see no reason
to think so ill of our Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen
as to believe that they would behold without complaint
their near relations immured against their will, or confined
in contravention of the law, and to the destruction of their
health and comfort. (Hear, hear.) So feeling, sir, upon
this subject, having had before in this house a bill upon
this subject, seeing no likelihood that the present bill
would be at all more satisfactory to me than the bill against
which I voted two years ago, I must refuse my assent
to the introduction of this bill. (Cheers from the Irish

members.)
Lord E. HOWARD doubted if any, except those who
were in the secret, could have imagined, from the terms of
the notice upon the paper, that a bill of this nature was to
have been introduced. Ho was led into this discussion,
however, in consequence of an allusion which had been
made by several hon. gentlemen. One said it was a case
of a near and dear relation of his. " Sir," said the noble
lord, " a far nearer and dearer relation of my own."
(Loud cheers.) Upon this subject he should meet the first
the satement of the hon. member for Cheltenham. He had
had no time to ask, and he did not know that he should
have asked the lady in question if he had had time,
whether she had been prevented seeing the hon. gentleman
alone when she was a member of the convent ; but this he
could say, that she would have had no wish to see him
alone. (Hear, hear.) His hon. friends the members for
Cork and Dundalk had adverted very kindly to this. The
hon. member for North Warwickshire, however, had taken
upon himself to say that the person to whom he alluded
had been confined against her will, and he spoke first as if
he had her own authority for saying so,—
Mr. NEWDEGATE said, he had merely stated that he
relied upon the testimony of the hon. member for Chelten-
ham, and he then quoted the correspondence which had
appeared in the newspaperti.
Lord E. HOWARD was not aware that any such state-
ment had been made in the newspapers. He could only
say, the lady had since told him that during the time she
was in the convent she had been completely happy. He
considered it disgraceful to bring forward his private affairs
before the house. With regard to the other cases which
had been motioned, hon. members should take care to in-
vestigate the truth of what was told them. The hon.
member for North Warwickshire began his speech by a
conversation very much resembling one of Lander's. With
regard to the iron bars, it was just possible that they might
be for the purpose of keeping people out as well as in.
(Laughter.) He must thank the noble lord the member
for the city of London, for the speech which he had made,
which was free from the bigotry of which the house had
that night heard so much. With respect to the confine-
ment of ladies in these establishments, he would ask the
hon. member if he had never seen the sisters of charity
walking about in the performance of their duties ? He con-
fessed that he felt warmly on the subject, but he thought
that the efforts to bring the question into false lights might
to some extent be his excuse. He had spoken without
preparation, and should regret it if he had uttered a word
that might be unnecessarily offensive ; at the same time,
he did not retract the sense of what he had said—it was
only the manner of it for which he could offer any apology.
Mr. DRUMMOND said that he disliked the former bill
which had been introduced upon this subject, and he had
great difficulties with respect to the present, because he
thought it would be utterly inefficacious. He did not be-
lieve it was within the power of the legislation of tho
house to separate that which was good from that which
was bad in monastic institutions. He never went the length
that some gentlemen did in blaming them, for he had seen
the advantages of sisters of charity abroad, and knew how
much the recovery of the sick and wounded in foreign hos-
pitals was owing to them. The case was full of difficulty.
For instance, they had passed bills as strong as they could
against Jesuits and monasteries ; yet there they were, in-
creasing every hour, and laughing in their face. By what
means could they possibly insure the efficiency of this bill?
His objection to these institutions applied as much to Pro-
testants as to Roman Catholics ; foi he laid down this ab-
stract doctrine, that it never could be right or lawful, under
any circumstances to lock up a number of women in a house
with bolts and bars, and give the key of it to any one man.
He didn't care whether he were a Protestant or a Papist,
or whether he were a layman or a priest, that was the thing
he objected to. It was said there were no bolts or bars in
this country, but that was simply because here they had
not their own way. Cases took place abroad daily, which
would occur in this country if the priesthood were Foredo-
.minaat. He could state things which had come under his
own eyes, but if he did, they would straightway be denied,
for the power of denial possessed by hon. gentlemen was
perfectly wonderful. (Hear.) He did not think it right
that there should be anywhere a number of the Queen's
subjects who could not appeal to her for protection through
the ordinary means of the police, constables, magistrates,
and judges of the country. (Hear.) That which he had seen
abroad might occur here. He had seen abroad parents
force their daughters into convents in order that other fa-
vourite daughters might have larger jointures ; and he
believed there were many such instances. He objected
very much to ladies who had taken vows being encouraged
to break them ; but he must tell the house some few things
that had happened, notwithstanding the vigilance of Pro-
testant eyes. This was a statement which had been made
to him by a priest who had left the Roman Catholic faith.
(Oh, oh !) He had been a curate officiating at
His niece was a boarder and pensioner at the school of a
nunnery at so and so, with boarders from the ages of 4 to
18. It then became his duty as her guardian to consult
her wishes relative to entering the nunnery. "Nunneries"
she replied, " are not such good places as you imagine. I
would not pass my life among them for anything you could
offer. As to the nuns, they are in a state of continual
strife among each other, and the crimes committed among
the ladies who are boarders are too shocking to mention."
(Oh, oh, and cries of "Name the nunnery.") These
convents were, in fact, one of the means by which the
Popish treasury was filled, and that was one great reason
why they were patronised. It was not a bit that ladies
might pass their time their in private devotion—not a bit
of it. There was no grist behind that mill. Here was
another case :

" Some time after the death of our young friend in Mar
Unique, we received a letter from our old and esteemed cor
respondent there, informing us that he had received a letter
from the lady in the convent, expressing her gratitude to
him for all that he had done for her and various members of
his deceased partner's family, and further stating that there
was a sum of 3001. due by that gentleman, her departed rela-
tive, to a family in Cork, who had suffered a great reverse of cir-
cumstances; adding, that she was sure if he had lived it would
not have been allowed to remain unpaid; that if she had not dis-
posed herself of all her property, she would gladly discharge the
debt, and entreating him, as an act of the greatest charity, to
pay the amount. Our friend reminded us of the many
sums he had previously paid, and of the fact of his having
no assets of his late partner's applicable to the purpose ; but
he added, that such was his respect for the family and for
the lady in the convent, that provided we felt satisfied, after
an interview with her, that the facts were as she supposed,
he would authorise our paying the money. On receipt of
this letter my brother well to the convent and saw the lady.
He stated that our friend had requested us to make inquiries
touching the family she had named to him. She expressed
her great surprise, and declared she knew nothing whatever
of any such family. My brother then told her all the cir-
cumstances mentioned in our friends letter, when she seemed
confused, but still declared she knew nothing of the family
nor of the circumstances. My brother, on his return to our
couuting-house, told all this with very great surprise to us,
and we wrote off at once to our friend, supposing that for-
gery and fraud had been practised upon him. In a few days
after, or it may be the next day, we received a note from the
convent in the same handwriting as usual, requesting that Mr.
C— would call upon the writer, which my brother did,
and found the Lady alone, waiting to receive him, in a state
of considerable agitation. The first question was, ' Mr. C—,
did you write to Martinique ?' My brother replied, 4 I did.'
The lady then said in almost an agony, which astonished my
brother, ' What shall Ido ? Pray write off at once and say
that the facts are all true, and that it was a silly mistake on
my part.' My brother replied, ' How can this be, Miss ? Is
it true that you wrote the letter you told me you did not
write ; or is it possible that you knew the family of whom you
told me you knew nothing?' This seemed to throw her into
almost a state of frenzy, and she replied, ' I suppose I must
tell you all ; the fact is, I have never put pen to paper since
I entered this convent ; one of our sisters manages all corres-
pondence, who is appointed for that purpose: She knows
all the facts, and that is quite the same as my knowing
them ; so do pray write and tell our friend that it is all
true.' It was in vain that my brother told her that
such an explanation would never satisfy our friends.
She only repeated, ' It is all true, and pray write to tell
him so.' My brother left her in this state, and on his
return repeated the conversation in utter astonishment to us,
and we wrote the whole as it occurred to our friend, who, in
reply, thanked us for the course we had taken to protect him
from the fraud intended, and stated, that as he was then be-
coming an old man, it bad been his intention to give up all
his business affairs, and to return to his native country to end
his days there, but that he was so shocked at what he had
thus discovered, that he resolved to return to Europe and end
his days without returning to Ireland, which he accordingly
did, and we corresponded with him in Paris until his death."
Now, this was the.sort of instruction given in these insti-
tutions, and these were not the things that were looked into
as they ought to be. He thought the country was not pre•
pared for the only course that was proper and necessary,
and that was for the suppression of monastic institutions
altogether. (Hear, hear.) Those who maintained this
system were determined, if they could, to establish the
canon law, with all its consequences ; and there wasjust as
strong a determination that they should not do so. (Hear,
hear.) With regard to this bill, he confessed that he did
not think it would effect the object with which it was
brought forward.
Mr. LUCAS wished to express his acknowledgments to
the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) for the extremely generous
andable speech which he had made, and which must have
perfectly settled the question in the mind of every impartial
and rational member of the house. The case had com-
pletely fallen through. The house had been asked to legis-
late, but no ground had been laid for legislation. The hon.
and learned gentleman who had brought forward the mo-
tion had admitted that he was destitute of proof ; and
therefore he wished commissioners to be appointed to visit
convents, and obtain evidence. The hon. member for Sus-
sex, it was true, had mentioned the case of a lady who had
been placed in a convent-school by her father, and who ran
away. Well, such circumstances sometimes happened
when young ladies were placed at school by their father.
(a laugh)—and he was not aware that they required any
special legislation. (Hear, hear.) Other cases had been
mentioned. One was the case of a boy ; another that of a
young lady living.in the world ; and a third case referred
to by the Bishop of Norwich, which, he thought, had no
relation whatever to this bill. As to the extraordinary
statements read by the hon. member for Surrey (Mr.
Drummond), every one must feel that they required no
notice. He (Mr. Lucas's) feelings on this subject was
exactly what it would be if he were a Protestant. If they
made out a case—if they showed him that abuses existed,
that tyranny was practised, that breaches of the law were
committed, Catholic as he was, he would join them in ap-
plying any national remedy they chose to adopt : but if
there was no better groundwork for exceptional and insult-
ing legislation than the cock-and-bull stories they had
heard, he must declare himself entirely opposed to such
measures as that of the hon. and learned member for
Hertford. For 12 or 14 years past he had watched the
course which had been pursued with regard to these
Catholic institutions. Not a year had passed without
some case of alleged cruelty, mismanagement, or hardsh.p
being dragged before the world ; but the moment it was
investigated it was found there was nothing in it, that it
was a tissue of falsehood, and that the parties to the nar-
rative wore degraded and disereditablp impostors. (Hear,