The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-09 00:00:00

tion would have increased the difficulty of converting the
new stock into a stock bearing a lower rate of interest at
the end of the term. (Hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI had understood the hon. gentleman to
state that there were great objections on the part of men
of business to the original resolution, on the ground that
it would increase the permanent debt. But the Secretary
of the Treasury showed that this was a mistake on the part
of men of business, and that there would have been a di-
minution in the amount of the debt thereby. All that he
(Mr. Disraeli) wanted was, before the opportunity arrived
of entering into a discussion upon the merits of the resolu-
tions, that the house should come to some clear conception
of what they were hereafter to debate. There had already
been a considerable change made in the propositions framed
by the right hon. gentleman. The committee had heard
them described by eminent members, all supporting them
in very different language. The right hon. member for
Coventry had described the Government plan as one of
the most important and gigantic financial proposals
that had over been brought forward, and in another
part of his speech this colossal proposal figured as
the creation of a two-and-a-half per cent. stock. The
general impression for some time had been that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer was going to pay off the
national debt. (A laugh.) The change in the resolutions
had thrown some light upon the Government plan, but if
it had been a proposal to pay off the national debt it could
not be described in language more glowing than by the
sight hon. gentleman the member for Coventry. Now,
the house, he repeated, ought to have a clear conception of
what the Government originally proposed to do, what they
now proposed to do, and what might be done if the house
supported the proposal of the Government. Ho would
trouble the house with the note which he had made upon
the original resolution, for he had not seen the amended
resolution until ho entered the house. The measure before
the house was a great financial question, and must be
viewed in its completeness ; and he would therefore look
at the effect of this resolution upon the 500,000,0001. of
the Consols and the Three per Cents. The first proposal
was, that the holders of stock should receive for every
1001., 821. 10s. in a new stock of 33 per cent., which should
be paid at the rate of 31. 10s. per cent. until the sth of
January, 1894. Now, he would not contrast the compa-
rative advantage of this and the next proposition, or enter
upon the question whether they had a correlative value.
This had been touched upon with great lucidity by his
hon. and learned friend (Sir F. Kelly). He would only
show the effect of the proposal of the Government, so that
the house might clearly know whether they would gain a
proportionate advantage in the step they were asked to take.
What was the debtor and creditor account with the country
upon this first proposition, viewed in its possible com-
pleteness and in its effect upon the 500,000,000/. ? If the
500,000,0001. were all converted upon this proposal, the
result would be, that, instead of paying, as at present,
15,000,0001. a year, we should only pay 14,437,5001., and
this would be a gain of 562,5001. a year. What would be
the effect of agreeing to the second proposition ? It was,
that the holder of every 1001. should receive 1101. in the
new stock of 23 per cent. until 1894. Now, what would
be the effect upon the 500,000,0001. if it were converted
accordingly into this new stock ? The fundholder would
of course at present receive his 15,000,0001., but if the con-
version took place under the' second option he would re-
ceive 13,750,0001., which would be an annual . diminution
of burden, not of 562,0001., but of 1,250,0001. per annum.
So that the country would gain 1,250,0001. per annum, but
would be saddled with an addition to the public debt of
50,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) What would be the effect of
the third resolution if it were carried ? The third pro-
posal was, that for every 1001. the holder should receive
an Exchequer bond for the like amount, carrying interest
at the rate of V. 15s. until 1864, and then at the rate of
21. 10s. until 1894. Now, the country would gain
1,250,0001. until 1864, and 2,500,0001. thence to 1894, but
the Government would be bound to repay the whole
500,000,0001. These were the proposals viewed with re-
ference to their action upon the national debt, for that
was the true test of their operation. Now, what aspect
had the question assumed since the new edition of the re-
solutions ? The alteration was very laudable, and the
resolutions might now be more safe and easy to carry into
execution, particularly if they were carried out to the pos-
sible effect which he had anticipated. But, after the
admissions that had been made, the alterations that had
been introduced to their notice, and the explanations
that had been given, did this question any longer possess
that magnitude of interest which it had when they woke
that morning? (Hear, hear.) Let the house observe how
the character of these three different propositions were
changed. The first proposition he would now take up was
the last one he had mentioned a little ago. It was the
proposal as to the Exchequer bonds. They were limited
in amount in the original proposition, having been fixed at
30,000,0001. ; but the right hon. gentleman, in his state-
ment, candidly informed them that, though he had limited
himself to 30,000,0001. as the amount of these bonds, he
should not hesitate to come to Parliament—for fresh aid
and assistance in carrying the scheme still further, if he
found it successful. And of course he contemplated that
by the aid of these Exchequer bonds he would be success-
ful in his operations on the 500,000,000/. But had the dis-
cussion of that evening supported this idea? Had the
speeches, even of these who upheld the statement of the
Minister, sanctioned that anticipation ? On the contrary,
all that had been said—and what had been said had been
uttered with great propriety, whether by those who were
favourable or opposed to the proposition—all showed that
the Exchequer bond might be made an instrument in fi-
nance, and a valuable one—one that the commercial man
would use, but that it was an instrument limited in its
use. He now came to the second proposition, following
out a train exactly opposite to that which he pursued at
first ;, came to that second proposition, which had
astonished and alarmed the country, and oven the hon.
gentleman opposite ouonisitneei()Mrailallaying)
They were
whaecrleadndrors:od the
t
upon the 500,000,0001. by the second proposition. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer had. altered his resolution,
but what ho (Mr. Disraeli) wished to impress upon the
house was that by this second proposition of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer which, according to the
hon. gentleman opposite, would enormously increase
the debt, and according to; the Secretary to the Treasury
would greatly diminish it,—according to this proposition
there were no indications of any great dealing with the
public burdens—nothing that could in any degree authorise
those magnificent laudations that were indulged in by the
right hon. member for Coventry. (Hear.) The new stock
was to be limited to 30,000,0001.! (Hear, hear.) And this
30,000,0001. was to produce those extraordinary effects
which the right hon. member for Coventry described with
so glowing an imagination when he was prompted to pro-
nounce these resolutions as embodying the most wonderful
financial propositions ever made. (Hear, hear.) It was
neither the second nor the third proposition, then, that
wont to deal largely with the debt of the country. (Hear.)
Then there was the first proposition, the power and in-
fluence of which was not to be diminished. It was to
exercise its great moral influence on the public burdens,
and its singular effects were to justify the descriptions so
vividly given by the hon. member for Coventry. (Hear,
hear.) But then, unfortunately, the first proposition was
the only proposition that everybody decried. (" Hear,
hear," and a laugh.) It was the only proposition not
limited in its operation, and,the very proposition that,
on all sides, was admitted could have no effect at All on
the public burdens. (Hear, hear.) That was probably
the reason why the noble lord would not consent to a
little more time to discuss the subject hereafter, be-
cause he wished the country to understand that it
was not, after all, a question of any importance.
(A laugh.) Then what were they going to do? (Hear,
hear.) What was all this pother about ? (A laugh.) Why
had they this matter announced before the budget was
brought forward, and a sort of special announcement made
that resolutions of the utmost importance were to be pro-
posed, heralded, let him remind the committee, by rumours
of great interest and magnitude ? (" Hear," and a laugh.)
The funds rose on these rumours ; they said now it was a
mistake, but still they rose—(a laugh)—and then the reso-
lutionsAhe moment- the committee met to deliberate upon
them, were changed,—(a laugh)--changed to such a degree
that it seemed totally impossible they could, by carrying
such resolutions, fulfil what must have been the original
object of them—to deal powerfully and practically with the '
public debt. (Hear.) The great object, the right hon.
member for Coventry said, of these resolutions—this unex-
ampled feat of finance—was to create a 23 per cent. fund.
That was the great object. Every age had its great object
whioh it wished to achieve. This was a financial age, and
at all cost and by all means they must create a 23 per cent.
fund. (Hear, hear.) But the curious thing was, that two
propositions were put before them to create funds—one was
to create a 31 per cent. fund, and the other a 23 per cent.
fund. Now, it was remarkable that all the magical influ-
ences which had been enlarged upon were to be produced
by the 33 -per cent. If by any chance they were to operate
largely on the public debt, they were to operate by means
of the 33 per cent. fund, and not by the 23 per cent. fund,
though they had been told that to establish this 23 per cent.
fund was the great end which they were to labour to
achieve. (Hear, hear.) Then, if the only object was to
create a 23 per cent. fund, it appeared to him that it could
have been done by simpler means. (Hear, hear.) They
could have funded a portion of Exchequer-bills, and ac-
customed the people to receive 23 per cent. funds. They
might have done it by means that other Ministers had
had had recourse to before without exciting the whole
country with an idea that the public burdens were
going to be entirely done away with—that a new machinery
had been invented by which the whole debt of the country
would be removed. (A laugh.) But they were going to
have a 23 per cent. fund to a limited extent by the second
resolution, and they were increasing the public debt of the
country to the amount of 4,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) It
would have been cheaper to have funded a portion of Ex-
chequer bills for that also. But it was not financial relief
that was wanted. (Hear.) What they seemed to want
was a model, a sort of normal financial farm. (A laugh.)
They wanted to have a stock, no matter how, if it only
paid. 23 per cent. That seemed to be the object that it
was not impossible they might obtain. (Hear, hear.)
But he thought it was of great i mportance—though these
resolutions were to pass without any division that night,
on the understanding that in so doing they were only as-
senting to tho Minister of Finance bringing in a bill on
the subject—it was of importance that the country, after
all the excitement that had occurred, should have a real
idea of this question. (Hear, hear.) He was not sure
that the propositions before them might not be charac-
terised by all that was sensible and judicious ; but they
did not profess to do much, and he thought they would do
less than they professed to do. (A laugh.) But it was
just as well that the country should know what they were
going to do, and not to be left under the impressiontehaa t
the public debt was going to be largely reduced. (H r,
hear.) More complicated and ingenious machinery, to
produce so slight a result, appeared to him never to have
been devised by the subtlety and genius of the most skilful
casuist. (Hear, hear.) In St. Thomas Aquinasotas there was
a chapter that speculated upon the,
angels could dance on the point of a needle.laugh.)
It was one of the rarest productions of human genius—(a
laugh)—and he recognised in these resolutions something k
question of how many
(A
of that master mind. (A laugh.) He should be happy if,
after due deliberation, they arrived with general unanimity
at some safe conclusions on the subject. But, as it was
Majesty's
debt was going to be paid off. ( Hear, hear," and
sFhioiudlady ng iog ht to, he
he
esi hr o
111111
n be
be
rs
so rwr t
hi f
they her
belief
that sects
tuhbej
na-
tional
laughter.)
Captain LAFFAN made some observations to show
what would bo the different effects of the first two propo-
sitions in the case of two individuals who might commute,
say, 100/. each, into the two new descriptions of stock.
: Rrawseolfulcial notore
At the end of 40 years the one would findQu
t
ed to say that the
beneficiallyg ointohoc tHh these
esNi n
Cu
Eant
Lue
tdLe
qhßta e
so
tft hotenh
soe hEbe
bue
gEg
hon. gentleman treated the national debt as if it was a sum
that the public creditor had a right to recover from the
nation. Now, he had no such right. The public never
entered into an engagement to pay the public creditor. All
they did was to agree to pay the national creditors certain
perpetual annuities, and these perpetual annuities were, if
the public thought fit, redeemable on certain terms, •the

terms on which they were redeemable being the payment
of a certain sum of money. (Hear, hear.) The individuals
of whom the hon. gentleman spoke would not get their
1101. or their 981. 10s., unleSs it was the interest of the-
State to give it. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MALINS impugned the proposition that England
had no other liability towards the public creditor than
that of paying a perpetual annuity. Strictly and legally
speaking that might be correct, but practically the doc-
trine was most erroneous. (Hear, hear.)
The first resolution, which was as follows, was then
agreed to :
"1. That the capital trading stock of the Corporation
of the Governor and Company of Merchants of Great
Britain trading to the South Seas and other parts of
America, and for encouraging the fishery, which is called
and known by the name of South Sea Stock : the capital
stocks of the 3/. per Centum Annuities, called and known
by the name of the Old' South Sea Annuities and by the
name of the New South Sea Annuities : the capital stock
of the 3/. per Centum Annuities, created by an act passed
in the twelfth year of King George the First, intituled,
An Act for granting to his Majesty the sum of
1,000,000/., to be raised by way of lottery,' called and
known by the name of the Bank Annuities 1726: and the
capital stock of the 3/. per Centum Annuities, created by
an act passed in the twenty-fourth year of King George
the Second, intituled An Act for granting to his Majesty
the sum of 2,100,0001., to be raised by annuities and a lot-
tery, and charged on the Sinking Fund, redeemable by
Parliament,' called and known by the nznne of the 35. per
Centum Annuities 1751, shall be paid off and redeemed.

The second resolution was than read as follows :

" 2. That every p2rson, body politic awl corporate, who
now is, or hereafter may be, interested in the capital
stocks of any of the said 31. per Centum Annuities, who
shall, in manner hereinafter directed, give notice at any
time on or before Friday, the'3l. day of Juno, 1853, of his
assent to receive other government securities in lieu and
in place of the said capital stocks of the said annuities, in-
stead of being paid in money, shall, at the option of the
said parties, receive for every 1001. thereof, 82/. 103. in a
a New Stock of Three-and-a-Half per Ceutum An-
nuities, which said annuities shall be paid at the
rate of 3/. 10s. per centum per annum until the sth day of
January, 1894, from and after which day the said annui-
ties shall be subject to redemption by Parliament; or for
every 100/. of the said capital stocks of. annuities the sum
of 110/. in a New Stock of Two-and-a-Half per Centum
Annuities, which said annuities shall be paid at the rate
of 2/. 10s. per centum per annum until the sth day
of January, 1894, from and after which day the
said annuities shall be subject to redemption by Par-
liament ; or for every sum of 100/. of the capital Stocks
of the said 3/. per Centum Annuities, an Exchequer Bond
for the like amount payable to the bearer, and carrying
interest at the rate of 21. 15s. per Centum per annum,
payable half-yearly, on the Ist day of March and the
Ist day of September in every year, until the Ist day of
September in a year to be named in such bond, and not
later than Ist September, 1864, inclusive, and thenceforth
2/. 10s. per centum per annum, payable half-yearly in like
manner, until and including the Ist of September, 1894,
and thereafter to be subject to redemption at par, at the
option of the holder, or at the option of the Commissioners
of her Majesty's Treasury, as shall be named in such
bond."

Mr. DISRAELI thought it right, bbfore this resolution
was agreed to, to warn the committee that, from the alter-
ations made in the resolution, from the admissions made
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and from various
other statements, this was, in fact, the important resolu-
tion. He wished the committee to bear this in mind, and
he protested against the supposition that, by allowing
the resolution to pass, he for one assented to it. If the
committee agreed to the conversion of the whole
of 500,000,0001., under the second resolution, he must
remind the committee that the profit to the country
would but little exceed 550,0001. a-year ; and they should
well consider whether, for such an object as reducing the
interest of the debt by 500,0001. sterling, they would do
right to fix the rate of interest at 21 per cent. for more
than 40 years. (Hear.) That was a most important point,
which the committee appeared to be disposing of in almost
a formal manner, but it was a point to which they must
give deliberate attention. The interest guaranteed was
higher than he, for one, thought would prevail during the
next 40 years. (Hear, hear.) It was an enormous respon-
sibility-to undertake to make such an arrangement, and he
trusted the committee, when they came to discuss the sub-
ject on a future occasion, would think it their duty most
carefully to consider whether they would assent to it.
(Hear, hear.)

The resoltition was then agreed to, together with the
four subsequent resolutions, as follows :

" 3. That the Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury
be authorised and empowered to fix the number of years
during which the interest of 21. 15s. per cent. shall be pay-
able on such bond, subject to the limitation of the fore-
going resolution, and likewise to determine whether such
bond, after the Ist of September, 1891, shall be redeemable
at their option only, or shall also be redeemable at the
option of the holder, and that the said Commissioners shall
give notice in the London Gazette of what they shall deter-
mine in these respects as soon as may bo after the passing
of any act in pursuance of these resolutions.
"4. That the dividends and interest payable on such New
3/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, on such New 2/. 10s. per
Centum Annuities, and on such Exchequer Bonds, shall be
charged and chargeable upon the Consolidated Fund of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
" 5. That the dividends now payable by law on sth July
and sth January in every year on the said Capital Trading
Stock and on the said capital stock of New South Sea An-
nuities, annuities 1726, and annuities 1751, shall continue
payable until the sth January, 1851, inclusive, and no
longer.

"That the dividends now payable by law on 10th Octo-
ber and sth April in every year on the said capital stock
a Old South Sea Annuities shall continue payable until
sth April, 1854, inclusive, and no longer.
" 6. That if the Corporation of the Governor and Com-
pany of Merchants of Great Britain trading to the South
Seas and other parts of America, and for encouraging the
fishery, shall at any time on or before Friday, the 3d day
of Juno, signify to the Commissioners of her Majesty's
Treasury their assent to commute and exchange the said
capital trading stock, or any part thereof, into any one or
mote of the said 3/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, New 2/.
103. per Centum Annuities, or Exchequer Bonds, the said
corporation shall be permitted to make such commutation
and exchange upon the same terms, and subject to the like
conditions, as are granted to the person or persons, bodies
politic or corporate, interested in, or entitled to, the capi-
tal stock of 3/. per Centum Annuities now proposed to be
paid off and redeemed."

The seventh resolution was then read by the Clerk as
follows : •

"7. That all and every person or persons, bodies politic
or corporate, possessed of any part of the said 31. per Cou-
ture Annuities, and who shall desire to signify his, her, or
their assent to receive the said New 31. lOs. per Centum
Annuities, New 21. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or Exche-
quer Bonds in lieu thereof, shall on or before' the 3d day of
Juno, 1853, but within the usual hours of transacting busi-
ness at the Bank of England, or at the South Sea House, by
themselves or some agent or agents for thatpurpose duly au-
thorised, signify to the Governor and Company of the Bank
of England, or to the Governor and Company of Merchants of
Great Britain trading to the South Seas, as the case may be,
such assent in writing under his, her, or their hand or hands
or the hand or hands of his, her, or their agent or agents,
together with the amount of his, her, or their respective
share or shares in the said 31. per. Centum Annuities, and
which said assent shall be entered in a book or books to be
opened and kept by the said governor and company of the
Bank of England and by the said governor and com-
pany of merchants of Great Britain trading to tie,
South Seas for that purpose; and in case of any transfer
of such share or shares of such annuities, or any part or
parts thereof, after such assent, the part or parts of such
annuities so transferred shall be entered in the said book
or books separately from the said 3/. per Centum Annuities,
in respect of which no such assent shall be signified, and
every such person or persons so assenting, or his, or her or
their assigns, or the executors or administrators of such
assigns, under any such transfer, shall be entitled for
every 1001. capital stock of the said 31. per Centum An-
nuities to si2/. 10s. of the capital stock of New 3/. 10s. per
Centum Annuities, or to 110/. of the capital stock of the New
2/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or to an Exchequer Bond
of 1001. bearing interest as aforesaid : provided always that
if any person or persons holding any such 31. per Centum
Annuities, shall not be within the limits of the United
Kingdom at any time between the Bth day of April and
the 3d day of June, 1853, both inclusive, but shall be in
any other part of Europe, it shall be lawful for such per-
son or persons to signify such
assent
at any time before the
30th day of July, 1805 ; and if any such person
or persons shall not at any time between the Bth day
of April,
1853, and the 30th
it day of July, 1853,
be within any part of Europe, shall be lawful for him,
her, or them to signify such assent at any time before
the Ist day of February, 1854, such person or persons
proving to the satisfaction of the Governor or Deputy
Governor of the Bank
y, of. England, or to the Governor of the
his, her', or their absence from the
South Sea Comp
United Kingdom, or out of Europe, as above specified, and
that his, her, or their share or shares of such 31. per Centum
Annuitiesi stood in his, her, or their name or names respec-
tively, orin the name or names of any one or more trustee or
trustees, on his, her, or their behalf, in the books of the Gover-
nor anct;ComnanY of the Bank of England, or Governor and
Company
of Merchant Traders to the South Seas on the 3d
day of Juno, 1853 : provided also, that such person or per-
sons so absent from the United Kingdom, or out of Europe,
shall signify such his, her, or their assent, within ten
days
after his, her, or their return to the United Kingdom."
In answer to Mr. WILKINSON,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that,
as regarded the management of the South Sea debt, he did
not take credit for any saving whatever. On the contra
as nothing was the
debt at present for the management of
the
debt it was possible there might be an increased expense
of perhaps 2001. a-year under that head. The hon. gentle-
mane had asked whether there was not a large amount of
South Sea Stock at 3i per cent. He believed the state of
the case was this-the South Sea Company had
assigned
to
them a sum of 600,0001. in 3 per cent. Consols, in compen-
sation for certain privileges of exclusive trade which they
gave up. They were holders of 3 pearncdentht.
istock, just like
other holders of the same security, e r practice was, he believed, to take the dividends on that sum of 600,0001., and to distribute them regularly
among their own mem-
bers. The practical effect of this
was,
holder as the gentle-
man
said, that the South Sea Stock ho
receive 34
per cent., the company adding per cent.
The resolution was then agreed to, together gether with the
following remaining resolutions
8. That provision shall be made for paying off such
proprietor or proprietors of any of the said Capital Trading
Stock or Capital Stocks of Annuities before
mentioned, as
shall not signify his assent to accept and receive New 31.
108. per Centum Annuities, or New 2/. 10s. per Centum
Annuities, or Exchequer Bonds, in lieu thereof.
"9. That every person or persons, body politic or
corporate, who now is, or hereafter may be, interested
in or entitled to any
part of the capital stock of the
Consolidated 3/. per Centum Annuities, or of the Capi-
tal Stock of the Reduced 31. per Centum Annuities,
payable at the Bank of England, or at the Bank of
Ireland, and who shall at any time before the 10th day
of October, 1853, signify to the Governor and Company of
the Bank of England, or to the Governor and Company of
the Bank of Ireland, by an entry to be made in books to
be opened for such purpose, his desire to commute and ex-
change any or all of the said annuities to which ho may be
entitled, into any one or more of the said New 3/. 10s. per
Centum Annuities, New 21. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or
Exchequer Bonds, shall be permitted to make such com-
mutation and exchange upon the same terms and subject
to the like conditions as are granted to the person or per-
sons, bodies politic or corporate, interested in or entitled
to the Capital Stocks of 31. per Centum Annuities pro-
posed to be be paid off and redeemed as aforesaid.
" 10. That nothing herein contained shall extend to
authorise the commutation of the said Consolidated 31. per
Centum Annuities, or the said Reduced 31. per Centum
Annuities, into the said New 2/. 10s. per Centum Annui-
ties, after the amount_entered for commutation into moll