The Sun.
London, England, 1853-02-22 00:00:00

motions made from considerations of a political or family
kind at all. (Hear, hear.)
Captain SCOBELL said he nieant nothing personal
to any particular Admiralty. He meant the expres-
sions he used to apply to all Admiralties since he was
born. (Laughter.)
Sir G. TYLER defended the "good service" pen-
sion held by Captain Lambert, than whom, he said, he
believed there was no officer in the service who more
deserved the consideration of his country. (Hear.)
Mr. HUME reminded the committee that when he
was a member of the committee on salaries, he laid on
the table of the committee a plan for forming the un-
gainly and unsightly buildings in Downing-street
into a regular square, so to comprise the
offices of the whole of the public departments ;
and he repeated his wish that his right hon. friend (Sir J.
Graham) would turn his attention again to some such
proposition.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE said he did not under-
stand his hon. friend (Mr. Hume) to make any reflection
on Captain Lambert.

condemned because wages were not sufficiently mei.
As to the general management of the dolkyarcls of this
country, he had no hesitation in saying that there was
not one which did not require a complete re-organisa-
tion, to accomplish which he knew of no man more cap-
able than the present First Lord of the Admiralty.
Lord MONCK said there was a strong feeling among
the artisans in the dockyards that they were not over-
paid, but underpaid ; and he was sure that no more in-
judicious proposition could be made than to disfranchise
them.
Mr. WILLIAMS contended that unless the dock-
yard men were deprived of the franchise, there would be
no possibility of economical management. He attributed
to the present system all the jobbing and extravagance
which prevailed.
After a few words from Mr. PHINN,
Sir F. BARING was aware he was open to the ob-
jection that he sat for a dockyard ; but he might be
allowed to say what he thought to be the right prin-
ciple in the case. The wages ,of public departments
could not rise and fall like those paid in private con-

The vote was then agreed to. terns ; but at the same time, if there was a-permament
rise or a permanent fall in the wages of private establish-
The next was a vote of 34,939/. to defray the salaries I
and contingent expenses of the scientific department of ments, those of the public yards must follow. As to
the navy, disfranchisement, if attempts were made to deprive
Mr. E. ELLICE, jun., complained that the state of the men employed in the dockyards of their electoral
our coasts as regarded the hydrograp'iic survey was most privileges, his right honourable friend at the head of
disgraceful. The hydrographer himself had stated that the Admiralty would find him (Sir F. Baring) join-
we knew more of the coast of Otaheite than of that of ing the chorus of the members for the dockyards.
Scotland. Since 1844 there had been 37 charts corn- Disfranchisement, in his opinion, was perfectly unneces-
pleted and sent in to the Admiralty, 18 of which had sary, because. the taking away of the right of voting
only been published, and those were six years in course would not destroy the siiteni of patronage.
of publication. He really thought that something should Captain BOLDER() called attention to the case of the
be done to remedy this grievance. assistant-surgeons in the Royal Navy. In the year 1850,
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the very circumstance that the house upon his motion, adopted a resolution declaring
there was a large accumulation of surveys taken some that the accommodations provided for these valuable officers
years ago, and not yet published, was a justification of was insufficient to secure the full benefit of their services.
the suspension of pushing those surveys further. (No, This resolution was carried in hostility to the views of the
no.) Besides, what was the use of a survey until it Admiralty, whose feelings were displayed in the memoran-
dum or or which in conseuence of the re-
was actually tested ? He remembered some years ago sol
ution ofder the house.was Onissued one or two occasions he had
an officer being employed in surveying the river Thames.
given notice of a motion to bring the question under the
Some years had elapsed, and he found the same officer notice of the house ; but he received from the right hon.
still employed in the same service. (Laughter.) baronet the member for Portsmouth (Sir F. Baring), then
Mr. HUME reminded the committee that England at the head of the Admiralty, an assurance that he was
was the chief maritime power. We had undoubtedly disposed to carry out the resolution of the house in a fair
dangerous coasts, and it was a discredit and a disgrace spirit. But he had learned that the assistant-surgeons had
to b told that we had not surveys of our own coasts. been refused accommodation, even when they were eligible
Sir J. GRAHAM deprecated the issue of charts in for it, according to the terms of the memorandum. He
that imperfect state in which it was probable they would knew, further, of some cases where superior authorities
be issued if sufficient time were not allowed for their having stepped in, these gentlemen had cabins provided for
proper examination by the hydrographer previous to m the He had not hadn
aopportunity of testing the
late Board of Admiralty, buthewas anxious to ascertain
their publication. the views of the present board in carrying out the resolu-
Sir F. BARING was of opinion, that, considering ion of the house. The terms of the memorandum he con-
the great importance to the commertial and maritime ceived to be rather offensive ; for it said the assistant-sur-
interesteof the country to have an increased supply of geons were "to be allowed cabins when the accommodation
charts, additional assistance should be rendered to Ad- on board will admit." He had received a return from
miral Beaufort, the present hydrographer, in order to the ships on the Mediterranean station relative to twelve
enable that officer to examine and report upon additional assistant-surgeons, all of whom had passed for the higher
charts. He thought that all questions connected with rank of surgeon. But of the twelve only five had received
the harbour department should be taken from the hy-
tin the ward-room. The treatment of these gen-
cabins ;and out of the five, only two had this little advan-
age
drographer, and transferred to the Board of Admiralty. tlemen was producing its natural fruits, for the elite of the
Sir J. GRAHAM stated that he had only proposed candidates from Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dublin, and London
to take a vote for six months, in order to enable him to shunned the service. In one or two of the colleges, he be-
examine the whole subject, and consider what, if any, lieved,they had come to a resolution that they would not
assistance should be rendered to the office of the hydro- enter the naval service until this, which they considered a
grapher. moral degradation, was removed. At the present time he
Mr. HUME hoped that the price of the Nautical Al- believed there were very few candidates for assistant sur-
manac would be reduced to half-a-crown, a price which geoncies in the navy. A short period back there were only
would amply repay the price of its preparation and five, he was Mold ; and he doubted whether they amounted
At all events, in the army the candidates were
printing, while it would at the same time tend greatly to ten.
to increase the sale of the work.
reckoned by hundreds, whilst in the navy they could only
4 be counted by units. Under these circumstances, he asked
Sir J. GRAHAM stated that a reduction in price the house whether it was desirable to continue a system
had taken place within the last two years. which was unjust to the men, and Anxious to the efficiency
The vote was then agreed to. of her Majesty's service. If the present system was per-
The next vote proposed was a sum of 134,2301. for de- slated in, the result would be that the navy would nothave
fraying the salaries of officers of the naval establishments a single properly qualified candidate to fill any vacancy as
at home. assistant-surgeon in the Royal Navy.
Mr. TUFNELL called attention to the low rate Admiral BERKELEY was one of the Board of Admi-
of wages paid to the shipwrights in the dockyards. ralty in 1850, when the hon. and gallant officer thought fit
Neither the pensions allowed to the workmen, to bring before the house the case of the assistant-surgeons,
nor the medical assistance, which, in case f
and he thought upon mature consideration he would almost
accident, was gratuitously offered them, was, in
adulatedaiii)nenat,aafovraltehfedediers-
rig= having done diofnilieso. [Capt. Bolder° : Not at all.] How
_,
mweeerte fetenerlo f a
cipline of that re
his opinion, sufficient to compensate for the low rate
gallantgi gentleman said the YBoard of Admi:
of wages paid. An extensive emigration was taking The hon, and
place, which would have a tendency to increase the rate ralty had evaded the question, and not carried the resolu-
of wages, and draw the skilled hands away from the tion which the house had agreed to. But when that resolu-
royal to the private dockyards. The Government ought tion was affirmed, (the right hon. 'member for Portsmouth,
to have the services of the most skilful workmen that who was then First Lord of the Admiralty, said that in con-
could
be obtained ; this, however, they would not be sequence of the majority being so small, and every naval
able to secure unless some alteration were made in the officer voting with the minority, he should bow to the deci-
rate of wages. He trusted that the subject would re- sion of the house only to this extent, that where cabins
ceive the best attention at the hands of the Government. could be formed, not trenching on the comforts of the men
(Hear.)
t.ebe built for the assistant-surgeons.
and not interfering with the efficiency of the ships, in such
since'
ntr
arigthcianat.)are baronet gave
Mr. COLLIER believed that a permanent increase in
the rate of wages was now taking place throughout the tn vesselste llh
e ws
aau
cabiner vt h
ye o direction
rshouldo f
country, and it was most desirable that the royal dock- every ship fitting out sinav4 awherecaaccommodatrnbourtliine
yards should be supplied with skilled labour fully equal men was amply provided. By the course which the hon.
to that employed in private yards. He concurred in the and gallant officer was taking, he was endeavouring to
opinion expressed by the hon. member who had preceded cause the greatest dissatisfaction throughout the navy,b
him, that it was necessary to raise the rate of wages, in endeavouring to place the assistant-surgeons above their
order to secure the necessary supply of skilled labour, superior officers, the mates. Those men were obliged to
Sir J. GRAHAM stated that the Admiralty had study quite as much as the assistant surgeons to obtain
given a most patient consideration to the subject re- certificates of merit, and they desired to keep quiet in the
ferred to, and although he admitted that the workmen agNh-reoowmar.d.Herablielvaedatihee gun-room was quite as quiet__
ought not to be paid a lower rate of wages in the royal was a fiddler or a fluter—(a
tab
uerryoue
they noillodffinceot
than in ordinary yards, still it must be remembered that practise in the gun-room, because when they were there
they ought not to receive 'one farthing more than the they had to study navigation. As to the youngsters, they
market value of their labour. He did not believe, not- could not interfere with the studies of the assistant-cur-
withstanding the complaints which had. been made, that geons, because they only used the gun-room to take their '
there was at present a single vacancy in one of the royal meals, and wore in the school-room the rest of their time.
yards, and even if there were any they would be imme- Hee was sorry to say that the assistant-surgeons' cabin had
diately filled. It did not appear, therefore, that they enead Eltoource efir,pniiscif in many
conviviality rather hall ships,p purposes
g were below the market rate of wages. When he was of study. purposes The assistant-surgeons were remarkably well
last at the Admiralty the rate of wages was reduced off, were well paid, and, as to not having any candidates,
from ss. to 48. per day. The shipwrights were then fifty-four entered the service only last week. (Hear.)
working five days out of six, they were now working Mr. HUME was not aware boforo that every naval officer
six days per week, and they had also permission to re- in the house voted in the minority on a former occasion,
some; task work. In case of accident the men were and be regretted they should have shown so little consider-
allowed half their wages, and had medical attendance ation for the service. The question was, ought they, or
gratis. After a service of twenty years, they were not, to obtain as able and efficient medical men for the
also allowed to retire on a pension ; and if the business navy as for other branches of the service ? At present it
of the dockyards were administered without any con- ilfrashthe last place they went to. They came to the navy
sideration of political influence, promotion was open to anti in
the findian employment.tii nowhere else. In the army
-ezewerserel'itardeatea as
but in thee navyn thseemsteeaem
every man, from the highest to the lowest. He be-cabins gentlemen,
e to
lieved that they might safely adhere to the present rate them, whilst it was denied to the assistant-surgeons, and
of wages, and neither he nor his colleagues, after giving the best men were thus driven from entering it. He ap-
the best attention to the subject, was prepared to add pealed to the right hon. baronet the First Lord of the Ad-
in the least degree to the present rate of wages given to miralty whether men brought up as gentlemen, and not
- workmen in the dockyards. admitted under twenty-two years of age, ought to be
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that the subject was one placed with young men very often much inferior in age,
which must be regulated by the ordinary rules of supply and, as the gallant admiral said, addicted to the fiddle or
1 and demand, and he could assure the committee that he •
the 'lute, and having no place to retire to. Heapproved
andgallantgentleman * highly of what the hon.
was at present actually inundated with applications for and he hoped he would persevere until justice was done to
situations, this important class. (Hear, hear.)
, - Mr. M. CHAMBERS considered that some mistake Mr. B. OSBORNE said no Board of Admiralty could
had been made by the Admiralty with respect to the bo more disposed to promote the comfort of every rank in
rate of remuneration given to the workmen in the dock- the service than the present boards If his recollection was
right, the hon. and gallant member (Capt. Boldero) carried
yards. He had felt it his duty to make careful inquiries
on the subject, and the result was, to convince him of his resolution in 1850, by surprise; the division was taken
the urgent necessity of making some alteration in the first and the discussion afterwards ; in a thin house, 48
voted and 40 against it ; and that was a time when the
present rate of wages. There were three classes of
navy estimates were not so popular to they were heW., Ile
workmen—shipwrights, joiners, and sawyers. The ship- was sorry the hon. member foe Montrose had taken a
wrights had nominally 265. par week, and out of that course now different to what he took on that occasion. The
sum one shilling was deducted in order to form a super- hon. member said then it was a question of details, which
annuation fund ; and a second shilling towards obtaining should be left to the consideration of the Admiralty. In
medical attendance in case of accident. The super- fact, the whole question was a questions for the Board
annuation Since 1809,
annuation fund, therefore, was one to which they were of Admiralty. It was aquestionil space,ea With Which
entitled men were alorje.. competent l deal. Since
entitled by their own contributions. Medical attendance
he was confident there was no c ass of men whose
was also paid for by the workmen ; but they were not
allowed the benefit of that attendance unless they lived
geons. He found that in 1840 a commission sat and
within sound of the bell of the dockyard. Neither of comforts were more attended to than assistant-
iurncinired into this very circumstance, and the commis-
these privileges ought, therefore, to be considered as
sinners
additions to the wages of the shipwrights. He found, with deference by the honertreble and gallant captain—the
sio included men whose opinieli would !Li feCeived
also, that in private yards the rate of wages was from Duke of Wellinetod,ee the rink° of Richmond, Lord Mel-
-365. to 425. per week, so that it could not be fairly con- bonnie, Lord HM, Sir G. Cockburn, the present Sir
tie
tended that the wages given in the royal dockyards was Hardinee, and Sir Husseyie Vivian.ee
di tel OfgeeelYe ;PM the oOok-
equal to the ordinary market price. Great complaints possibility of removing
with the lieutertMante, atid they Sara in their re-
had been made of the character of the vessels usually
pit
trtte messn full consideration 'we fiM iiindidal difnculties
sent out of our dockyards ; but if they were anxious to ffee'e"w4Dev of making any, 'aligements to accomplish
turn out good work they must obtain the services of good iil."-- -seieeseeet _ Arid 'uniform manner in all classes of
workmen, and this could only be done by giving the
tisin aThe aceoManodation afforded of late years to this
workmen good remuneration for their services. f ea 1
'II r*, slops.l
of officers is so improved as to render the renioVel less
Ship-joiners, who were a higher class of workmen, could
eesaseuntial, and we are, therefore, not, prepared to iiiakO any
earn in private dockyards from 30s. to 365, per week, representation iu this reepect" IA 1846,heornawveerae
while in the royal yards only 21s. per week was paid. given that every ShiP
should have
Sawyers, working in pairs, could only earn in Deptford cabin fitted tip) it which, if they preferred,
post clerks might
Atovo a sixth-rate
as-
dockyard, by working from, seven in the morning until mistantesetteons, second masters,
n andith the midshipmen.
dusk, sawing hard wood, 355. the pair, or 3.75. 6d. per mess together, instead of
week each, whereas, if they were to go into an ordinary 850 and that the order for giving
timber-yard, they could obtain 30s, per week for mewing on the resolution of 1
the accommodation and space on board
deals and other soft wood. Emigratkm was now the those cabins, when
insult. He thought, when the The hon. and gallant memb,meresssalidgnothing had been done
gal-
fashion of the day, and he was sorry to hear that meet- would admit,i was 5_
ings had been held, and disposition evinced on the part gu or compliment, and not the language of
of some of the men employed, in the dockyard to emi- iwnsult. BY-a argeeturn in May, 1851, it appeared greaterthea nd the
grate, in consequence of the low rate of wages ; many of number of assistant-surgeons had these cabins,
lent memberiisiaa looked at it dispassionately, he would see that
the men, however, were prevented from doing so by the order was carried out whenever space would admit of
i shed and gallant
circumstance of their having paid many years into the erecting them. le was the last man to offer. an insult to
superannuation fund, and did not wish to lose the a
Prnfessthu
in
which
were
many distinguished
hon. member for
amount they had so paid. It had been said that the men, and to sum up in the wordso
dockyard men were comparatively better paid than work-
men in the country. It should be recollected, however, to the Admiralty.
lained, in reply to Admiral
that they 'were much higher taxed. In Woolwich and Captain BOLDER() p_
was further from his thoughts than
Montrose, this was a question feletail which must be left
Berkeley, that nothing
Deptford they had to pay parish rates, town rates, create dissatisfaction in the navy.
and
Mr.
health of towns rates, and other local taxes. They had, to enteravour to
a few words from Captain SC he
further, to pay high rents. They were obliged, too, to PEACOCKS, the vote was agreed to.
live within sound of the dockyard bell, in order that they Aevote of 22,7641• for her Majesty's establishments abroad
might be ready in case of fire. Altogether, therefore, was also agreed to. t for wages to arti-
their expenses were much higher than those of make, A vote of 683,6481. was next proposed
establishments
persons of the same rank in the country, who, though
they might receive lower wages, were able to expend at home. to artificers abroad was also
their neeney in a more advantageous manner. Aa a A vote of 35,566/. wages
'istra batta-
reformer, he had been exceedingly surprised at a 7311 agreed to.
ficers, &c., employed in her Majesty's
able
gestion that these men should be deprived of the elects g-
which had cost 70,i500/., were cap
franchise. Such a measure cos not be justified on any lions, the raising of
9 It hod been stated that they could
of working great guns . .
ground of policy. Besides, if it were adeopted, the not do anthing of the kind- a ke.
said that was quite
an sineuld
Mr. HUME wished to ask whether the dere.
best men would be lost to the public, for they certainly Admiral BERKELEY
could not be expected to remain in a service where They b_tti Inan trained to work great guns,
-
their rights and privileges were taken away. These • es—anage them very well•
men knew that they had rights and privileges ; lame. I The vote was then of 1,023,0111. for naval
over, they knew how to use them. He (Mr. Clarnbers) Upon a vote being proposed
ld repairs of ships,
was an instance of their privileges having I stores, and for the building
a to the waste which had Isiet
ueen 'used in
Mr. HUME called attention
contracts for a greater quaa,n_ti y
dependently. (Hear, hear, and a twill.) Under all circumstances, he sincerely -
coped that the of occasioned by entering
into
particularly timber, ailto
the dockyard artificers v.:,0ul ,
the measurement and delivery
d be seriously considered which prevailed in
abuses
before the project w
, s'js entertained of depriving them agreed to.
f of
the franchise -
1 Air he was certain that the o coals.
men wolo-" best class of
of an accusation against
to +, ..0 not enter if they found they were to be liable stores had been made the subject
Admiralty, but on return-
-1
..oe penalty of disfranchisment his former administration of the
standard of the principa
Mr. HUME
learned gentl
the way admired the candour of the hon. and big to office
he found that the .
eman, when he said he was an instance of erticles remained as .
in which th
right of franchise.
man tell the house
election ? •
edockyard artificers exerted .
wnt`Mould the hon. and learned gcntle- f!! g
(Hear,
andh a had been the expenses of his
never during the whole of laugh.)i
tronage or the appointment He (Mr. Hume) had yeas,
is political life, bad the, pa-
of a single deck ard car-
penter, nor had he ever sat for he had fixed it. (
• in tho price of store ,
Hear hear.) There
' S • and in the
60 000/.
Sir J. GRAHAM remarked that the reduction of
.the
I article of copper the additions
luironealso, had risen 70 or 80 per cen
1 expense was ,
t. within the last two
and timber was much dearer._eelv 140,0001.
their had been a great increase .
The vote was then agreed to,
a dockyard ; but he 256,9181. for ne
should be conducted was that off supply and dockyard
d, knew that the principle u •The increase in the
icas were also the following
onto and rep ,
w works, improvem , airs in
on which such establi hits estimates
vvotes':—
e 65,00,: _
...0i . uponfor
s mer the yards, e.
medicines find medical stores.
He contended that the efficiency o the dockyards con. ld 57,4271. for miscellaneous services•
only be restored by the franchise being taken awe e ... 1 cep,v, reserved half
vote was 687,575/. il
for eel Navy and Royal
As i • officers of the
the objections which had been made to buildinyg. h.p pay, and retirement to o
uld be taken
by contract, he feared the honourable and learned e I-
. 3 Ararines. that steps wo .
mein- - The next
ressed a hope cal than
ber had not enjoyed many opportunities of seeing what Mr. HUME exp
Nothing could be more faeci
we
was going on in the large private building yards. Ther to limit promotion.
went on promoting admirals'
who
he would not find ships cut in two, and made to e Mahe way in which we
sent out as commanders-In-chiefman_ere.in.
underga .b, ad in the army men three corn d
• India,
out of
all sorts of metamorphoses, regardless of cost,
and in
Mr. MACGREGOR said this was the first
time 1 V ere of no use ;
ahe „le ef, not one g had the seat of war, .
that a limit had already
had heard the policy of the First Lord of the Admi - ' GRAHAMobserved
.ralty Sit r •