The Sun.
London, England, 1854-06-02 00:00:00

NG, J -UNE 2, 1854.

There were, however, other means of communicating
with the Baltic fleet, by means of Queen's ships and tran-
sports despatched from this country—and this mode,
though longer and more circuitous, would be cheaper.
Letters by this latter means would be conveyed at a penny
per letter, and newspapers entirely free. It was impos-
sible, of course, to give accurate statements of the time
of these vessels departing, as that depended upon circum-
stances. He would, however, mention that during May
five vessels were sent out, and that during Apra four
were despatched. There was every probability that '
the departures in future would be quite as frequent. In
respect to the suggestion that letters should be sorted
before they were despatched from the London office, he
wished to state he doubted very much whether greater
delay and inconvenience would not arise from that
course than from leaving them to be sorted on board.
He understood the practice to be that upon the mail
arriving at the fleet the idlers were directed to occupy
themselves in sorting the letters according to their ships,
and upon their being sorted signals were put out for the
various vessels to send boats for their letters. If the
sorting took place in London, it would be necessary that
letters should be posted at an earlier hour than they now
were, and this he thought would be a greater inconveni-
ence than the short delay which now occurred in sorting.
With regard to the delay which had taken place in the
transmission of some letters addressed' to the Baltic
fleet, the noble lord had anticipated the reason. It was,
as he seemed to suppose, that they had been misdirected.
In fact some had been sent to the Post-office, Copen-
hagen, before the fleet had arrived out there. The next
point to be referred to was the communication with the
Black Sea. He must begin by stating that the facilities
of correspondence which the army and navy were to
enjoy were very much owing to the considerate liberality
of the French Government. The whole postal service
in the Mediterannean .was at the present time, and
had been for some time, in the hands of that Govern-
ment. They despatched six steamers a month from
Marseilles to Constantinople, which form a very fre-
quent and secure means of communication. Very
shortly after the first division of the forces had reached
Turkey, the Emperor of the French signified to the
Post-office of this country that he desired that all
the conveniences—of frequency, security, and cheapness
—enjoyed by his own seamen and troops in the East,
should be enjoyed by the seamen and troops of Great
Britain. The result of this was, that the despatch of
letters to the Eastern army would take place six times a
month, and the charge for letters under a quarter of an
ounce would be but 3d. ; that amount franking them
from this country to Constantinople. The share of that
3d. taken by the country would be only id., the remain-
der being the foreign postage. The noble lord (Beau-
mont) had also asked whether any arrangements had
been made for facilitating the postage service from head-
quarters through the Turkish territory. In reply to
this, he had to state that the precaution had been taken
of appointing two officers of the post office to act as
postmasters to the army. These gentlemen would in a
short time be at their posts ; one of them at Constanti-
nople, and the other—most probably, for this was not
actually arranged—at the headquarters of the army. It
was right to explain to their lordships that the low rates
of postage would apply only to those letters which were
bona fide letters for seamen, officers, and soldiers, and
not to any mercantile correspondence. The liberality of
the French Government bad reference, of course, solely
to the troops and to the seamen and officers of the fleet.
The safest mode of addressing letters to the fleet was
simply to state the name of the vessel on board of which
the person addressed served, adding " Baltic" or "Black
Sea Fleet," as the case might be. It was desirable that
persons should not mention any port or post town in
the address, for that course would probably cause much
delay. Letters to the army should be directed to the
regiment of the person addressed, adding thereto either
" Constantinople," or " Army in the East."
After a few words from Lord COLCHESTER,
Viscount CANNING said that he ought to add to the
statement which he had made that all letters ought to be
post-paid.
The house adjourned at a quarter to 8 o'clock

HOUSE OF COMMONS--(YESTERDAY.)
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Sir J. PAKINGTON then rose to move the following
resolution :
" That it be an instruction to all committees of the
whole house to which bills may be committed, that they
have power to make such amendments therein as they
shall think fit, provided they be relevant to the subject
matter of the bill 2 • but that if any such amendments shall
not be within the title of the bill, they do amend the title
accordingly, and do report the same specialty to the house.
" That the questions for reading a bill a first and second
time in a committee of the whole house be discontinued.
"That in going tin ough a bill no questions shall be put
for the filling up words already printed in italics, and
commonly called blanks, unless exception be taken
thereto ; and if no alterations have been made in the words
so printed in italics, the bill shall be repOrted without
amendments unless other amendments have been made
thereto,
" That on a clause being offered on the consideration of
report or third reading of a bill, the Speaker do desire the
member to bring up the same, whereupon it shall be read
a first time without question put.
"That Lords' amendments to public bills shall be ap-
pointed to be considered on a future day, unless the house
in any case shall order them to be considered forthwith.
"That every report from a committee of the whole
house be brought up without any question being put.
" That bills which may be fixed for consideration in
committee on the same day, whether in progress or other-
wise, may be referred to a committee of the whole house,
which may consider on the same day all the bills so referred
to it, without the chairman leaving the chair on each sepa-
rate bill; provided that, with respect to any bill not in
progress, if any member shill raise an objection to its con-
sideration, such bill shall be postponed.
" That the house, at its rising on Friday, do stand ad-
journed until the following Monday, unless the Louse shall
have otherwise ordered."
The first six resolutions were agreed to, and the seventh
was withdrawn.

THE VIENNA PROTOCOL.
Lord J. RUSSELL, by command of her Majesty,
brought up the protocol signed by the Four Powers at
Vienna on the 23d of May. It was ordered to lie upon
the table.

INCOME TAX BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Colonel DUNNE asked if the allowance on interest
charges on estates in Ireland would apply to the double
as well as the single tax.
Mr. WILSON said the only object of the bill before
the house was to increase the amount of the income tax ;
it in no way varied the conditions and terms of the in-
come tax of last year. The special commission appointed
in the first instance for Ireland had been rescinded ; but
there was an arrangement by which special commis-
sioners still sat in Ireland periodically, for the purpose
of hearing appeals, and that entirely answered the pur-
pose for which the commission was appointed.
The bill was then read a third time.
Mr. WILSON brought up a new clause for the pur-
pose of preventing the returns of poor rates under the
act of last year from being made quarterly, and providing
that they should be made only at such times as the com-
missioners pleased.
Mr. HUME asked whether the Government had
taken any precaution against the defalcations of the col-
lectors ? It was a most mischievous circumstance not
to have those tax-collectors under the control of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. Let the Governent
appoint those collectors, and be alone responsible for
their conduct.
Mr. BUCK trusted that the honourable Secretary of
the Treasury would not lose sight of this matter. Great
burdens had been thrown upon the county rates by
those defalcations.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS also urged the importance of a
satisfactory arrangement of this matter.
The clause was then read a first, second, and third
time, and was added to the bill.
The bill was then passed.
THE STAMP DUTIES BILL.
On the suggestion of Mr. HADFIELD and Mr. W.
BROWNE.
Mr. WILSON consented to the postponement of the
committee upon the bill until Monday week.
OXFORD UNIVERSITY BILL.
The house then wont into committee on this bill.
On clause 26,
Mr. EWA.RT said he had an amendment to propose, the
object of which was to enable students to reside in private
lodgings as well as in halls. This was a part of the ancient
constitution of the University. Formerly there were three
hundred hostels where students were allowed to reside;
and if the house wished to restore the spirit of the ancient
university, it should place it in the power of the students
to live in the town at a moderato expense. This was not
only conformable with the ancient character of such insti-
tutions, but it was the best way of enabling poor students
to avail themselves of the advantages of university educa-
tion. Ho was convinced that this was one of the most
essential amendments that could be made in the bill ;
that the colleges would not suffer from it ; and, above
all, that the nation would derive the greatest advan-
tage. Tho hon. member concluded by moving to insert
after the word " convocation" " resident householder in
Oxford."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
hon. member proposed to go back, without mitigation, to a
state of things which ho presumed to have existed, and
which substantially did exist at one time, in the university.
He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) thought it was a very
dangerous thing for any one age to imitate the manners of
another. To import the precedents of five or six hundred
years back without considering the consequences which
they involved was very hazardous. He was not prepared
to accept the ancient system of the university in full, for
this reason, if for no other, that that was a state of things
which belonged to a turbulent period, a period when the
ideas of discipline wore of an entirely different character.
The discipline which existed at that period was ecclesias
tical discipline; and, notwithstanding the fact that eccle-
siastical discipline was then at its height, the universities
were among the moat turbulent places in the country.
There were not only rows like those which had been known
in modern times, but frays and fights tending to break up
the peace of the city were of common occurrence. He did
not mean to say that that was precisely what would follow
from the amendment - but ono of the consequences he von-
tured to
predict would be that the corporation of the city
of Oxford would at once make a considerable addition to
its police force. (Laughter) The hon. nleman had
cited the case of the Scotch universities. Het (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) deprecated the founding of an
arguent ou them. He was bound to say that, to the
credit of Scot:and, the power of individual self-control and
self-government was greater in Scotland! than in England;
and it was roost dangerous to argue that, because the system
succeeded in Scotland, it should be introduced into this
bill. The Government proposed to go as far as they
could towards the old university system, without break-
ing up personal discipline. The discipline of the uni-
versity at the present moment was far from being per-
fect. At the samo time it was real discipline, and there
was exercised through the medium of it a considerable
amount of salutary control over the conduct of the stu-
dents. He did not think the house would assume the re-
sponsibility of breaking up the system. Was the amend-
ment compatible with that system or not ? What did the
Government propose, and what did the hon. gentleman
propose: government proposed that lilonabers of won,

vocation should be entitled, provided they conformed to
certain fixed statutory conditions, to open their residences
as private halls, and to receive there young men, who
should, to all intents and purposes, bo endowed with all the
privileges of the university. His hon. friend must admit
that that proposition was a bold step. (Hear.) It was a
considerable variation from the existing system; but he was
convinced it was a safe variation. Under clause 41 the uni-
versity was to lay down rules forthe regulation of the house.
The person who opened the house must be a member of the
university, responsible to the university, and if his conduct
were such as to justify such a proceeding, his name might
be struck off the books. In fact, there was not a mere
paper system of safeguards, but a real working system ac-
companying the arrangement. It was a very different
thing to allow any one, as his honourable friend proposed
to tie, to open a lodging-house for the reception of stu-
dents. He would not enter into the system of lodging-
houses, lost he should offend Cambridge University; but
he thought it would be most unsafe to allow open
houses at Oxford to be dignified with the name of
halls. The restrictions to be imposed would of course be
inapplicable to the keepers of private lodging-houses, who
might be men of straw, or something worse than men of
straw. The Scotch universities did not say that any per•
son who received students should be entitled to call his
house a hall ; and, for his own part, he thought it would
bo better to leave a lad of 16 entirely to himself than to
consign him to the system proposed in the amendment,
Without going further, he thought he had assigned suffi-
cient reasons for not acceding to the hon. member's pro-
posal, (Hear.)
Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE thought his hon friend (Mr.
Ewart) could hardly be aware of the actual state of things
at the period to.which he had referred. Most of the old
chronicles aboundeu in descriptions of the furious con-
flicts of those times; such scenes not being confined to the
English universities, but extending to foreign ones con-
ducted in a similar manner. He believed the proposal
now under consideration originated in an article in the
Edinburgh Review, from the pen of Sir Win. Hamilton,
who, though one of the most acute logicians this country
had ever produced, had on this point forme,' a most erro-
neous opinion. In " Henry's History of Great Britain,"
it was stated that the English universities were in ancient
times frequently disturbed by conflicts between the stu-
dents, the southern English generally combining . against
the northern English and the Scotch, and that this led
many to resort to other places of learning. The advocates
of the proposed change seemed almost entirely to have
overlooked the importance of discipline. (Hear.)
Mr. BLACKETT thought that any provision which re-
laxed the present college monopoly would have a tendency,
if not now, in future years to open the university to dis-
senters. He heartily supported the amendment.
Mr. WIGRAM hoped the committee would bear in mind
the opinion given by the Cambridge commissioners that the
introduction of any such system would be fatal to the dis-
cipline of the university. As reference had been made to
Cambridge, he would state that no such system as this, or
anything approaching to it existed in Cambridge. The sys-
tem in Cambridge was that the masters of the colleges had
a right to give a privilege to young men to reside in lodgings
under such restrictions as in their judgment was necessary.
These restrictions were such as to enforce discipline. There
was a regular return every morning of the hours at which
young men returned home at night, and the young men re-
siding in lodgings were required to attend chapel in the
morning, and to go through the same discipline as those
resident in the colleges. Such a scheme, therefore, as that
proposed by the hon. member for Cambridge would be a
scheme which at Cambridge there was not the slightest
similitude to. He put it to hon. members whether any of
them would send a young man to an university established
on a principle such as the hon. member for Dumfries
would introduce, a system by which he would have largo
bodies of young men collected together not subject to any
discipline whatever.
Mr. VERNON said he could not support the amend-
ment, but wishing to see the university extended he should
support the clause with great satisfaction.
Mr. PHINN observed that though he concurred very
much with the hon. member for Dumfries, both in the
object which he proposed, and the reasons which he stated,
he hoped he would withdraw this amendment.
Mr. R. PHILLTMORE also suggested that the amend-
ment should be withdrawn.
Mr. HEY WOOD said it appeared to him that the amend-
ment was of the first importance. Although according to
the forms of the house it was not possible to move now that
the Dissenters be admitted into the Universities, it was
their duty to provide that if the Dissenters were admitted
they should be enabled to live comfortably there.
Mr. HENLEY said he objected to the amendment on
many grounds. He believed that its adoption would quite
break down the present university discipline. The proposal
in the bill of private halls was bad enough, but this was a
great deal worse.
Mr. AGLIONBY cordially supported the amendment, Mr. EWART having said a few words in reply,
The committee divided—
For the amendment
Against it..........
The amendment was therefore lost.
On the motion of Mr. R. PALMER and the SOLICITOR'
GENERAL, some verbal amendments wore agred to.
Mr. MOWBRAY then moved to omit the words
"as a private hall," in lines 14 and 15. A great
authority, Dr. Twisden, president of St. Mary's Hall,
had given it as his opinion that there was no want
of accommodation in the colleges. This 26th clause
was inconsistent with a subsequent one, which took away
all preferences to indigent students. He doubted whether
the proposed private halls would be any boon to poor
students. They would mostly be opened by masters of
arts, who would take care to be well paid for the accom-
modation they afforded. At present lodgings might be ob-
tained in Oxford on sufficiently reasonable terms. The
only purpose which these private halls would serve would
be to encourage parties. He objected to them also as tend-
ing to destroy the moral discipline of the university. The
hon. gentleman concluded by urging that both on principle
and authority ho had shown that it would be unwise to
adopt the proposed plan, which was a recurrence to a sys-
tem in Oxford which had been tried, failed, and been given
up, and from which the university had been for three cen-
turies relieved.
Mr. G. VERNON said his hon. friend had referred to
a remark of his to the effect that he thought one of the
advantages which would arise to the university from this
clause would be the ultimate admission of dissenters.
Now he wished to guard himself by saying, that in using
that expression he only alluded to the admission of dissen-
ters to the university, but not to degrees or any of the
emoluments of the colleges. His hou. friend had spoken
of the difficulty which would arise in the case of a private
hall on the death of the master ; but the 41st clause gave
powers to the university to meet such a case.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would sug-
gest that the issue raised by the hon. gentleman was not a
convenient one. The amendment as it was moved did not
affect the substance of the clause, and, as a matter of ar-
rangement, it might be as well to omit the words in this
clause and insert them in the next. The amendment did
not now touch the real question in issue.
After a few words from Mr. NEWDEGATE,
The amendment was then formally agreed to.
Mr. GOULBURN rose to move as an amendment, in
line 16, after the word " and," leave out to " entered," in
line 17. He said he should not have taken part in the de-
bate, had it not been stated that the principle here laid
down with regard to a new system of education would be
extended to Cambridge. Had it been left in the power of
the university to decide on the adoption or non-adoption
of the system of private halls, he would not have said a
word; and, considering the alterations which had been
made in the governing body, that decision might well
have been left to them. Feeling, as he did, that the change
of discipline proposed would affect his own university, he
felt compelled to move the omission of words, which he
thought the essence of the clause.
Mr. ROUNDELL PALMER said no system in his
opinion was so elastic, or so capable of meeting the demand
of the country for university education, and at the same
time affording equal securities for discipline, as that pro-
posed by this clause.
Sir J. PAKINGTON considered that the arguments of
the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) had not been
answered by his hon. and learned friend, and that the sta-
tutes proposed by the university last month would do
more to extend the advantages of that institution than the
present proposal.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought it might now be assumed
that it was desirable the benefits of the University of Ox-
ford should be extended, and that a larger number of
young men should receive the advantage of that which was
intended as a national good. If that was the general opi-
nion of the committee and of the country, then came the
question, how was that object to be effected ? It bad
been proposed by the commissioners that householders
in Oxford should be enabled to receive students as
lodgers, who should have the benefit of a university educa
tion, but that proposal had been discussed and rejected.
Then there was the mode of having halls in connection
with the colleges, but it was obvious that this plan would
furnish but a very moderate degree of extension. There
was then the mode at Cambridge where a great number of
undergraduates lived in lodgings, but were at the same
time connected with the different colleges. But the disci-
pline maintained by that means it must be owned was im-
perfect, for it was quite impossible that the head of the
college could preserve effective control over persons who
were not living in the colleges but lodging with house-
holders in the town. Both these plans being thus objec-
tionable, they then came to consider that of the private
halls. In point of economy the commissioners gave strong
proof in their report of the evidence of the head of the hall
of Durham ; and Mr. Colles stated that a relation of his,
who was at that establishment, was admitted in three years
to holy orders—the whole expense incurred not being more
than 300/., while at Oxford a young man would hardly ob-
tain his degree for less than 8001. But this was a ques-
tion not for the young man, but the parent. Take, for in-
stance, a person who was not poor, but who was only in
possession of moderate means— no matter whether his in-
come was derived from a small lan 'ed property or from
trade—he might be in possession of sufficient means to en-

41
112-71

able him to send his sori to the university, provided he was
not exposed to the rivalry of expense and expenditure that
Well,
now takes place there. then, would it not be a
great temptation for such a man to send his son to Oxford,
if there was a person of well-known character and attain-
ments at the
the head of a hall who should maintain disci-
pline and at the same time take care that the ex-
penditureini of the young man was kept within hounds.
But, on the other hand, it had been objected that halls
of this nature would be opened for the accommodation or
oencouragement of the gay and thoughtless ; but those
wh
urged
this objection forgot that the power of
ire-, young $
en
men to the university would not rest
with
themselves but with their parents and guardians ; and
it would be no temptation to them to say, " Hero is a
hall open to the gay and thoughtless." (ear, h ear.) But
H
if they could find an establishment like a private hall under
the responsible management and guidance of a man well
known and educated at Oxford, where the expense would
not be great, and where strict attention would be paid to
the morals of the student, it would be a great temptation
for parents to send their sons there. Let them create such
a feeling as this, and the object of this bill, which was to
extend the usefulness of the university, would be obtad.
But at the same time he must confess there wee evilsine con-
nected with a university education in this country which
neither this bill nor any other legislative measure was
likely to overcome. Those faults belonged to the manner
of life which prevailed in the upper walks of society, and
which allowed so much liberty to young men of wealth and
station, that it was difficidt for any discipline to prevent
their extravagant and luxurious habits which set a very
bad example to the young, men of less means. There were
reasons that could be urged in favour of that state of
things, no doubt; but for his part, he wished some means
could be devised which should have the effect of placing
young men of wealth under the sage discipline that be-
longed to poverty. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the ob-
jection which had been raised against this clause on the
ground that it would admit the Dissenter to the advan-
tages of the university by a sort of back door, all he could
say was, that such an objection came with an ill grace from
gentlemen who refused to admit Dissenters into the uni-
versity under any circumstances. He was asked by them
in how it was that he did not propose to admit the Dissenters
vo straightforward manger. Why, »imply bOCAlice he


Mr. WALPOLE said the great objection which he had
always felt to the bill was that a sufficient amount of free-
dom was not left to the university and the colleges. What
he wanted to know, therefore, was whether they would
have greater freedom under the bill in its amended form.
Mr. GOULBURN said the committee could hardly enter
into that matter till they had the amended bill. (Hear,
hear.) After its recommitment, the bill would be almost
a new one.
Mr. DISRAELI thought it would be very convenient
to the house if the noble lord would give a general answer
to the general inquiry of his right hon. friend (Mr. Wal-
pole). (" Hear, hear," from the Opposition.)
Lord J. RUgiELL was really afraid of misleading the
right hon. gentleman by giving a positive answer to his
question. His own opinion was that the clauses with re-
gard to the university were not so much affected as those
with regard to the colleges. His impression was that
greater liberty was left to the colleges.
Mr. HENLEY said they (the Opposition) were nart
asked to consent to an alteration in the bill which would
make it a new bill; and it was hardly fair that they should
not have reasonable time to communicate with those who
were most interested in the matter.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, in order to give more time he
would propose that the bill should be proceeded with
Thursday se'nnight.
Mr. HORSMAN said, understanding that the powers
functions of the commissioners were to be considerably en•
larged, he wished to know whether the Government were
disposed to reconsider the composition of the commission.
(Cheers from the Ministerial side.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that point had been considered,
and as at all events the commissioners would have con-
siderably more labour, th Government proposed to make
an addition to their number. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PHINN would sut to the noble lord to consider
whether, as the main interest of the discussions had been
concentrated on the connexion of the different schools
with the university, the commissioners should not have
power to make internal regulations with regard to the
schools, so as to bring them into harmony with the uni-
versity. He felt certain that any arrangement which did
not include that would be quite futile.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the bill
was ordered to be re-committed this day.
PUBLIC REVENUE AND CONSOLIDATED FUND
CHARGES
This bill was read a seeond timeBILL.
CRIMINAL PROCEDURE BILL.
Mr. AGLIONBy moved the second reading of this
bill, observing that the main object of it was to lessen the
contamination of gaols by shortening the duration of im-
prisonment in the case of persons charged with trifling
offences. He admitted that the machinery was not per-
fect, but it might be amended in committee.
Mr. MILES protested against the house proceeding at
so late an hour with a bill every clause of which involved
a principle.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, though he approved
of the main provision of the bill, the object of which was
I to allow accused persons to plead guilty before a magistrate,
and to save the necessity of sending them to the assizes or
sessions, he thought a bill of so important a nature should
not be proceeded with at that hour (1 o'clock).
Mr. AGLIONBY then consented to postpone the se-
cond reading.
CHURCH BUILDING ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
On the motion for the third reading,
Mr. HADFIELD expressed some misgivings as to this
bill, which had been materially altered since it first came
before the house.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL briefly explained.
The bill was read a third time and passed.
EXCHEQUER BONDS (8,000,0001.) BILL.
This bill went through committee.
INDUSTRIAL AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
The house rose at 20 minutes past one.