The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-09 00:00:00

tion would have increased the difficulty of converting the
new stock into a stock bearing a lower rate of interest at
the end of the term. (Hear.)

Mr. DISRAELI had understood the hon. gentleman to
state that there were great objections on the part of men
of business to the original resolution, on the ground that
it would increase the permanent debt. But the Secretay
of the Treasury showed that this was a mistake on the part
of men of business, and that there would have been a di-
minution in the amount of the debt thereby. All that he
(Mr. Disraeli) wanted was, before the opportunity arrived
of entering into a discussion upon the merits of the resolu-
tions, that the house should come to some clear conception
of what they were hereafter to debate. There had already
been a considerable change made in the propositions framed
by the right hon. gentleman. The committee had heard
them described by eminent members, all supporting them
in very different language. The right hon. member for
Coventry had described the Government plan as one of
the most important and gigantic financial proposals
that had ever been brought forward, and in another
part of his speech this colossal proposal figured as
the creation of a two-and-a-half per cent. stock. The
general impression for some time had been that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer was going to pay off the
national debt. (A laugh.) The change in the resolutions
had thrown some light upon the Government plan, but if
it bad been a proposal to pay off the national debt it could
not be described in language more glowing than by the
right hon. gentleman the member for Coventry. Now,
the house, he repeated, ought to have a clear conception of
what the Government originally proposed to do, what they
now proposed to do, and what might be done if the house
supported the proposal of the Government. Ho would
trouble the house with the note which he had made upon
the original resolution, for ho had not seen the amended
resolution until he entered the house. The measure before
the house was a great financial question, and must be
a iewed in its completeness ; and he would therefore look
at the effect of this resolution upon the 500,000,000/. of
the Consols and the Three per Cents. The first proposal
was, that the holders of stock should receive for every
100/., 821. 10s. in a new stock of 31 per cent., wllich should
be paid at the rate of 31. 10s. per cent, until the sth of
January, 1894. Now, he would not contrast the compa-
rative advantage of this and the next proposition, or enter
upon the question whether they had a correlative value.
This had been touched upon with great lucidity by his
hon. and learned friend (Sir F. Kelly). He would only
show the effect of the proposal of the Government, so that
the house might clearly know whether they would gain a
proportionate advantage in the step they were asked to take.
What was the debtor and creditor account with the country
upon this first proposition, viewed in its possible com-
pleteness and in its effect upon the 500,000,0001. ? If the
503,003,000/. were all converted upon this proposal, the
result would be, that, instead of paying, as at present,
15,000,0001. a year, we should only pay 14,437,5001., and
this would be a gain of 562,500/. a year. What would be
the effect of agreeing to the second proposition ? It was,
that the holder of every 100/. should receive 110/. in the
new stock of 23 per cent. until 1894. Now, what would
be the effect upon the 500,000,0001. if it were converted
accordingly into this new stock? The fundholder would
of course at present receive his 15,000,0001., but if the con-
version took place under the second option he would re-
ceive 13,750,0001., which would be an annual diminution
of burden, not of 562,0001., but of 1,250,000/. per annum.
So that the country would gain 1,250,090/. per annum, but
would be saddled with an addition to the public debt of
50,000,000/. (Hear, hear.) What would be the effect of
the third resolution if it were carried ? The third pro-
posal was, that for every 100/. the holder should receive
an Exchequer bond for the like amount, carrying inter*
at the rate of 2/. 15s. until 1864, and then at the rate of
21. 10s. until 1894. Now, the country would gam
1,250,000/. until 1864, and 2:500,000/. thence to 1894, but
the Government would be bound to repay the whole
500,000,0001. These were the proposals viewed with re-
ference to their action upon the national debt, for that
was the true test of their operation. Now, what aspect
had the question assumed since the new edition of the re-
solutions ? The alteration was very laudable, and the
resolutions might now be more safe and easy to carry into
execution, particularly if they were carried out to the pos-
sible effect which he had anticipated. But, after the
admissions that had been made, the alterations that had
been introduced to their notice, and the explanations
that had been given, did this question any longer possess
that magnitude of interest which it had when they woke
that morning? (Hear, hear.) Let the house observe how
the character of these three different propositions were
changed. The first proposition he would now take up was
the last one he had mentioned a little ago. It was the
proposal as to the Exchequer bonds. They were limited
in amount in the original proposition, having been fixed at
30,030,000/. ; but the right hon. gentleman, in his state-
ment, candidly informed them that, though he had limited
himself to 30,000,0001. as the amount of these bonds, he
should not hesitate to come to Parliament—for fresh aid
and assistance in carryinc, the scheme still further, if he
found it successful. And course he contemplated that
by the aid of these Exchequer bonds he would be success-
ful in his operations on the 500,003,C)01. But had the dis-
cussion of that evening supported this idea? Had the
speeches, even of these who upheld the statement of the
Minister, sanctioned that anticipation ? On the contrary,
all that had been said—and what had been said had been
uttered with great propriety, whether by those- who were
favourable or opposed to the proposition—all showed that
the Exchequer bond might be made an instrument in fi-
nance, and a valuable one—one that the commercial man
would use, but that it was an instrument limited in its
use. He now came to the second proposition, following
out a train exactly opposite to that which he pursued at
first ; he came to that second proposition, which had
astonished and alarmed the country, and even the hon.
gentleman opposite (Mr. Laing), who had addressed the
house with so much ability. They were not to act
upon the 500,000,000/. by the second proposition. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer had altered his resolution,
but what he (Mr. Disraeli) wished to impress upon the
house was that by this second proposition of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer which, according to the
hon. gentleman opposite, would enormously increase
the debt, and according to the Secretary to the Treasury
would greatly diminish it,—according to this proposition
there were no indications of any great dealing with the
public burdens—nothing that could in any degree authorise
those magnificent laudations that were indulged in by the
right hon. member for Coventry. (Hear.) The new stock
was to be limited to 30,000,0001.! (Hear, hear.) And this
30,000,0001. was to produce those extraordinary effects
which the right hon. member for Coventry described with
so glowing an imagination when he was prompted to pro-
nounce these resolutions as embodying the most wonderful
financial propositions ever made. (Hear, hear.) It was
neither the second nor the third proposition, then, that
went to deal largely with the debt of the country. (Hear.)
Then there was the first proposition, the power and in-
fluence of which was not to be diminished. It was to
exercise its great moral influence on the public burdens,
and its singular effects were to justify the descriptions so
vividly given by the hon. member for Coventry. (Hear,
hear.) But then, unfortunately, the first woposition was
the only proposition that everybody decried. (" Hear,
hear," and a laugh.) It was the only proposition not
limited in its operation, and the very proposition that,

on all sides, was admitted could have n; elfect at all on
the public burdens. (Hear, hear.) That was probably
the reason why the noble lord would not consent to a
little more time to discuss the subject hereafter, be-
cause he wished the country to understand that it
was not, after all, a, question of any importance.
(A laugh.) Then what were they going to do? (Hear,
hear.) What was all this pother about ? (A laugh.) Why
had they this matter announced before the budget was
brought forward, and a sort of special announcement made
that resolutions' of the utmost importance were to be pro-
posed, heralded, let him remind the committee, by rumours
of great interest and magnitude.? (" Hear," and a laugh.)
The funds rose on these rumours ; they said now it was a
mistake, but still they rose—(a laugh)—and then the reso-
lutions;the moment the committee met to deliberate upon
them, were changed- -(a laugh)—changed to such a degree
that it seemed totally impossible they could, by carrying
such resolutions, fulfil what must have been the original
object of them—to deal powerfully and practically with the
public debt. (Hear.) The great object, the right hon.
member for Coventry said, of these resolutions—this unex-
ampled feat of finance—was to create a 2} per cent. fund.
That was the great object. Every age had its great object
which it wished to achieve. This was a financial age, and
at all cost and by all means they must create a 2i per cent.
fund. (Hear, hear.) But the curious thing was, that two
propositions were put before them to create funds—one was
to create a 3? per cent. fund, and the other a 2i per cent.
fund. Now, it was remarkable that all the magical influ-
ences which had been enlarged upon were to be produced
by the 3i per cent. If by any chance they were to operate
largely on the public debt, they were to operate by means
of the 3A per cent. fund, and not by the 2i per cent. fund,
though they had been told that to establish this 2i per cent.
fund was the great end which they were to labour to
achieve. (Hear, hear.) Then, if the only object was to
create a 2i per cent. fund, it appeared to him that it could
have been done by simpler means. (Hear, hear.) They
have funded a portion of Exchequer-bills, and ac-
customed the people to receive 2i per cent. funds. They
might have done it by means that other Ministers had
had had recourse to before without exciting the whole
country with an idea that the public burdens were
going to be entirely done away with—that a new machinery
had been invented by which the whole debt of the country
would be removed. (A laugh.) But they were going to
have a 2,1 per cent. fund to a limited extent by the second
resolution, and they were increasing the public debt of the
country to the amount of 4,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) It
would have been cheaper to have funded a portion of Ex-
chequer bills for that also. But it was not financial relief
that was wanted. (Hear.) What they seemed to want
was a model, a sort of normal financial farm. (A laugh.)
They wanted to have a stock, no matter how, if it only
paid 2i per cent. That seemed to be the object that it
was not impossible they might obtain. (Hear, hear.)
But he thought it was. of great importance--though these
resolutions were to pass without any division that night,
on the understanding that in so doing they were only as-
senting to the Minister of Finance bringing in a bill on
the subject—it was of importance that the country, after
all the excitement that had occurred, should have a real
idea of this question. (Hear, hear.) He was not sure
that the propositions before them might not be charac-
terised by all that was sensible and judicious ; but they
did not profess to do much, and he thought they would do
justas
less professedthawneuthtehyattheatßthuteyitwweraes
• to do, and not to be left under the impression that
going
the public debt was going to be largely reduced.
produce so slight a result, appeared to him never to have
counttryo sdhoo.uld(Aknloawughw.h)
been devised by the subtlety and genius of the most skilful
hear.) More complicated and ingenious machinery, to
uensubjectsi,m unanimity
and
casuist. (Hear, hear.) In St. Thomas Aquinas there was
a chapter that speculated upon the question of how many
angels could dance on the point of a needle. (A laugh.)
It was one of the rarest productions of human genius—(a,
laugh)--and he recognised in these resolutions something
of that master mind. (A laugh.) He should be happy if,
after
Friday
debt deliberation,
w ash her
should
going theyo
bb ee vs arrived
if withher" generalea ry
Majesty's
hear,"
a arat some safe conclusions on the subject. But, as it was
should go to their slumbers with the belief that the na-
tional
laughter.) _

Captain LAFFAN made some observations to show
what would be the different effects of the first two propo-
sitions in the case of two individuals who might commute
say, 1001. each, into the two new descriptions of stock.'
At the end of 40 years the one would find himself more
beneficially situated that the other.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would not
go into these minute questions ; but begged to say that the
hon. gentleman treated the national debt as if it was a sum
that the public creditor had a right to recover from the
nation. Now, he had no each right. The public never
entered into an engagement to pay the public creditor. All
they did was to agree to pay the national creditors certain
perpetual annuities, and these perpetual annuities were, if
the public thought fit, redeemable on certain terms, the