The Sun.
London, England, 1853-07-09 00:00:00

opinion with regard to certain circumstances which are
occuring abroad. We all know it is very easy to get up
in this house or in the country, where people are rather of
a pugnacious disposition—(hear, hear, and a laugh)—a
feeling, which may seem justified, of a wish to protect the
weak against the strong, and that feeling may be pushed
to that extent, that all efforts by the Government, how-
ever friendly and patriotic, to preserve peace may possibly,
be frustrated. (Rear.) Now, if I thought the Govern-
ment at this time was pushing the country to war—a war
which would be unpopular in this house and hateful to the
people—then I think any one would be justified in insist-
ing upon discussion, that this house might bring its power
to check the Government ; but that is not so on the occa-
sion before us. I speak particularly of the Prime Minister.
So far as his conduct is concerned in this matter I have the
utmost confidence in the course he is disposed to take.
(Cheers.) I take it for granted that he will maintain peace
if it be possible to maintain peace consistently with the
character and position of this country. (Renewed cheers.)
Well, having that confidence, I think it highly probable
the discussion of a question like this, in a popular as-
sembly, may have the effect of damaging the object
which I have so much at heart, and it is because I am of
that opinion—not that I shrink from the discussion of
any question before this house, or in this house, if oppor-
tunity rendered it desirable—yet it is because I hold that
opinion that I say, though Ministers of course use the
phrase when things are to be concealed, that the public
service will be injured by discussion. I believe the chances
of peace will be damaged if this question, with all the irri-
tating circumstances connected with it, is brought before
the house now ; and having as I have great confidence in
the wisdom of Government—their moderation—the con-
ciliatory course which they are disposed to take under any
difficulties of this kind, and hoping that by that course
they will be able to keep this country from the untold and
inconceivable calamity of hostilities with Russia or any
other country, I beg the honourable member not to bring
forward his motion now. (Cheers.) lam quite sure that
in course of time ho will see the wisdom of the course re-
commended by the noble lord, and which I should recom-
mend. It may be some will taunt him with not bringing
it forward ; but if, to-morrow or next day, persons in the
press, or in this house, or anywhere else, taunt him with
want of spirit and neglect of duty, he will have the satis-
faction of knowing, and it will be acknowledged before
long, that he withdrew his motion because he was anxious
to help the Government in the steps they are taking to
preserve the peace of this country and the peace of
Europe. (Cheers.)

Sir G. GREY : I rise merely for the purpose of expressing
my dissent from the inference which the right honourable
gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) draws from the course pursued
by her Majesty's Government on the present occasion. He
has inferred, as a necessary consequence of that course,
that we must now be in a far more disadvantageous
position than wo were a week ago—that circumstances of
gravity and danger must have arisen in the interval which
induced her Majesty's Government to make an appeal to
the hon. member for Aylesbury to postpone his motion.
I must confess, without pretending to any knowledge of
the facts of the case, that I draw a totally different infer-
ence from that course. (Hear.) The speech of the right
honourable gentleman is calculated to produce great and
unnecessary alarm. (Hear, hear.) But the inference which
I draw is, that the prospect of bringing about an amicable
adjustment is better, and the Government apprehend that
discussion now, leading to an irritating debate, might tend
to mar the prospect of an amicable settlement, which we
all desire to see as the result of this question. (Cheers.)
Mr. HUME—In all tile experience I have had, it does
not occur to my recollection that resistance has ever beam
made to such an appeal as that of the noble lord, and being
one who has great confidence in the moderation, firmness,
and judgment of the First Minister of the Crown, lam
disposed, with my hon. friend the member for Manchester,
to think the hon. member for Aylesbury will act wisely
and prudently in not urging any discussion at present.
(Hear.) It is quite true, publicity is on almost all occa-
sions of advantage, but there are exceptions, and I think
this is one. (Hear hear.) The object of this country is
to keep at peace with the whole world—not that I would
have the country ready to submit to insult, or to give up
that which would derogate from its honour ; but I think
the hon. member w;11 act wisely in giving an opportunity
to her Majesty's Government to point out, on an occasion
of so much importance, when this discussion shall be
brought forward. (Hear.) He must not mind what per-
sons may say, and I hope that, with the view of promoting
peace, or assisting in the amicable arrangement of the
present difficulties, he will accede to the wishes of her
Majesty's Government. (Cheers.)
Lord D. STUART was received with slight ind;cations
of impatience. He said—l think I can recal to the re-
collection of hon. gentlemen a circumstance which may
possibly make them think it is not altogether presumptuous
in me to address one or two observations to the house on
this subject. That circumstance is, that the motion of
which my hon. friend the member for Aylesbury has
given notice was given notice of by myself some months
ago, and when my hon. friend was not in this country.
(Hear.) He was then at Constantinople; but on his re-
turn to his place in Parliament it was the wish of many of
his friends and of mine and of those taking a great interest
in this subject, that I should make it over to him. I most
willingly acceded to their desire, and surrendered it into
his hands, convinced that he possessed much greater capa-
city for doing justice to the subject. Having clone so, I
may be supposed to feel peculiar interest in the course
which he is about to adopt, and have some title to express
my opinion upon it. (Hear, hear.) I certainly do lament
the course which her Majesty's Government think it their
duty to take on this occasion. I cannot myself see the in-
jury which is likely to arise from the subject receiving de-
liberate discussion in this house. I should have thought
myself that such a discussion would be likely to strengthen
the hands of the Government, supposing they are going to
take, as I am ready to suppose, a right and honourable
course. I hope they mean to take measures calculated to
maintain peace (which I suppose we all desire), and which
will not expose us to the reproach of falling away from any
engagement or of violating any assurance which this coun-
try may have given in support of a just cause to any other
country. The house will, no doubt, see there is a great
advantage in maintaining peace—that peace ought to be
maintained by all means consistent with the honour and
true interests of this country. (Cheers.) But there is such a
thing as having a peace entailing half, if not all, the dis-
advantages of a war. There is such a state of things as
having large armaments, as expensive as if there were
war. There is such a state of things as having a foreign
army occupying the territory of another state, and sub-
jecting the inhabitants of that state to all the evils,
the expenses, the cruelties, and the sufferings of war,
and all in the name of peace. (Hear, hear.) lam desirous
of seeing peace maintained, but maintained in such a way
as not to sacrifice our interests, nor depart from our gaod
faith. (Hear, hear.) I hope that the dexterity and the
spirit of the Government will compass both these ends. I
should, however, have thought that the nol3le lord (Lord
Palmerston) would have been ana-;ous to grant further in-
formation • but since the Government tae the responsi-
bility of asking the hon. gentleman not to press his motion
—since they do not feel the necessity of the support of the
representatives of the people—(hear hear)—l think there
is but one course left to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Layard),
and that he cannot, with any propriety, do otherwise than
consent to the appeal that has been made to him. But
though, under the circumstance; the delay may be assented
to, the house and the country will, at the proper time, ex-
pect, and insist upon having, the fullest information on all
these points. They will know whether there has been
within the last week, any change as seems to be suspected
on the opposite side—(hear, hear)—in the motives and mea-
sures of the Government. They will be acquainted with
all the circumstances which made the Government at ono
time apparentlydesirous that this motion should be brought
on, and at another that it shall be put off. (Hear.)
Mr. LAYARD said that, after what had fallen from the
noble lord and others, he had no difficulty in acting on this
occasion. After the appeal that had been made to him, he
had no hesitation in withdrawing his motion, which, how-
ever, he would bring on again whenever the public service
would admit of his doing so.
The subject then dropped.
ARMS ACT (IRELAND)
Mr. BUTT hoped that, though the noble lord the mem-
ber for Tiverton had already moved that the house should
adjourn at its rising to Monday, he would not be prevented
by the forms of the house from answering the question of
which he (Mr. Butt) had given notice. This question was
to ask the noble lord the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, when the intention of her Majesty's Ministers
with reference to an Arms Act for Ireland will be stated
to the house, and if it is intended to introduce any bill,
when that bill will be brought in ? The matter was one
of the utmost importance, and iu connexion with he begged
to remind the Government of the old maxim, "bis dat qui
cito dat."

Sir J. YOUNG said that, as had already been stated,
the matter was now under consideration of the Govern-
ment, and due notice would be given of the course they
would pursue.
Lord NAAS said that the importance of this question
was such that the house ought to know distinctly what the
intention of the Government was. . .

Mr. Af A CARTNEY said that the law as it stood ought
not be allowed to expire; he trusted that her Majesty's
Ministers were prepared to introduce a big upon the
subject.
After a few words from Sir W. VERNER,
Sir J. YOUNG said he thought he had already ex-
plained that it was the intention of Government to intro-
duce a bill. When the measure was matured it would be
brought under the consideration of Parliament
ing in e bil
Mr. N
thAPIER urged that no time should be lost in bring-
Mr. S. HERBERT said that as soon as public business
permitted the bill would be introduced.
The motion that the house at its rising do adjourn until
Monday was then put and an to.
SUCCESSION DUTY BILL,--PUBLIC BUSINESS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved,
that the order of the day in reference to this bill, be read,
in order that it might be discharged. On Monday next,
after the Committee upon the India Bill, he would bring
up certain amendments upon the Succession Duty Bill,
chiefly designed to give effect to two or three points on
matters which had already been agreed upon. Should any
question be likely to arise upon the amendments, the
Government would endeavour to bring the Indian debate
to a close by ten or eleven o'clock, in order that the amend-
ments upon the Succession Duty Bill might be considered.
The third reading of the bill would be fixed immediately
after the debate on the India Bill was concluded ; this ho
trusted would occur in the following week, so that the
third reading might be looked for on Monday week.
The motion was agreed to.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.

Upon the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Mr. BLACKETT said that after the division of last
week it would be useless to oppose the Government upon
this measure. He trusted, however, that right hon. gen-
tlemen would use their victory prudently, and listen to the
reasonable remonstrances of those who did not approve of
this measure. The first question to which he would call
the attention of the house was as to whether the Court of
Directors were willing to remain as they now where with-
out any commercial character. In the last East India Bill
or charter it had been expressly provided in the preamble
that the company was to give up its commercial character;
the preamble of this bill merely stated that it was expe-
dient to provide for the government of India. This was a
point on which he should like to have the views of the
right hon. baronet (Sir C. Wood). Again, as to the system
of nominating members of the Court of Directors ; that
seemed not to meet with a very favourable reception., In
a letter from the chairman, dated 2nd Juno, 1803. he
stated that, notwithstanding the selection was confined
to certain persons, it was very much feared that the per-
sons nominated would be chosen from political bias. Ho
thought they were bound to contemplate all adverse con-
tingencies. Ho wished the President of the Board of Con-
trol would state what he was prepared to do in the event
of the refusal of the Court of Directors to take upon them-
selves the government of India. The next point concerned
the very loose way in which this bill was drawn. This

measure might be called the Constitutional Act for :thei
Indian Empire. It was of a totally different chars ?ter
from that of former measures relating to the subject,
much as they were all of a temporary nature, whereas this
was a permanent measure. The provisions of such a mea-
sure ought to be simple, clear, and comprehensive ; but
what were the characteristics of this m&isure ? He asked
the President of the Board of Control whether he hal the
slightest idea of the number of enactments revived. Ho
hoped he should not be told that this was a question of
time, and that Government had not time to do it. Now
Government should cut out for themselves only so much
work as they could get through satisfactorily. But the
only time that could possibly be lost by the reconstruction
of this measure would be the time which would be occu-
pied, which would not be more than a few days, in
transcribing the various acts which it was intended to
revive, for he supposed when he proposed to revive
these acts, he did it from a deliberate knowledge of their
contents. The first clause he thought ought to be post-
poned. . .

Sir C. WOOD said the first point raised by the hon.
member was, did he feel confident that the Court of Direc-
tors and the proprietors of East India stock would consent
to remain trustees for the government of India if the bill
passed in its present shape. He had not the slightest red -
son to think they would not. With regard to the second
question, he confessed he did not quite understand his lion.
friend when he said he wished the clause to be reconsidered
in order that it might be brought forward in a more rea-
sonable shape, unless he meant that all the existing sta-
tutes with reference to India should be repealed and re-
enacted. (Hear, hear.) That certainly was intelligible,
but that was a totally different thing from postponing the
clause with a view of bringing it forward in a more satis-
factory shape. He did not mean to say that consolidating
all the acts would not be a desirable course, but it would
be a gigantic task to consolidate all the acts relating to
India, and if they were to attempt to do it there would be
no Prospect of accomplishing it this season.
Mr. BRIGHT said the right hon. gentleman had just
given the sort of answer he expected. He • said it would
be a gigantic undertaking. Well he (Mr. Bright) thought
this bill snowed that with regard to India, the right hon.
gentleman was not competent to undertake anything of a
gigantic character. - But if it were a gigantic labour to
consolidate these laws, it must be a matter almost of im•
possibility for individuals to find out what the law was
with regard to India. The argument the right hon. gen-
tleman used was just the strongest possible argument for
consolidation. The learned member for the University of
Dublin had undertaken a measure of this nature With re-
gard to the laws affecting landlord and tenant in Ireland,
and, when he was Attorney-General, consolidated 200 acts
of Parliament, and put them all into one bill. (Hear,
hear.) He put them before a committee ; the bill was
passing through the house, and he believed all connected
with Ireland would admit that the result of that labour
would be a vast benefit to Ireland. Then Sir Robert Peel
on one occasion consolidated acts connected with the cri-
minal law amotintine•' to about 100; and not long ago the
Chairman of Inland Revenue proposed to consolidate the
law with respect to the soap duties, which comprised 30
acts of Parliament. Surely if in these matters consolida-
tion was desirable, it was more desirable when interests of
such magnitude were at stake. He thought the right hon.
gentleman had made a most flimsy excuse • for not having
done what it was his duty to do.
Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE said it was scarcely credible
that they were legislating for 100 millions of people in such
a way. The right hon. gentleman said it was a Herculean
task to consolidate the acts. If he was not prepared to
undertake that Herculean task they ought not to legislate
at all.

Mr. HUME said it would have been more honourable
in the Government if they had taken time to bring forward
a bill suitable to the importance of the object, and more
especially seeing that it was not a temporary bill, but a
bill that was to continue for an indefinite time. He con-
sidered that the two points submitted by the honourable
member for Newcastle were unanswered and unanswerable.
The principle was introduced into that house 20 years ago,
that when a bill effected other acts, they should be re-
pealed and re-enacted. Three committees had. laid that
down with respect to private bills. He did not wish to
destroy the East India Company ; he wished to see a good
law enacted, by which the company could carry on the
government of that country ; and he thought the Govern-
ment would have acted wisely in bringing in a continuance
bill for one or two years, to enable them afterwards to
bring in a proper bill, and worthy of the object they had
in view. He ventured to say there was never an instance
of a bill being brought forward which was so crude as this.
He did not believe that in the pettiest, paltriest parish
vestry in the country, the village Solons would have acted
like the Government in the present instance. They would,
never have attempted to come to a decision until the com-
mittee they had appointed to inquire into the subject had
made their report. Parliament had nol yet hoard the na-
tives, and surely the least they could do, if they made up
their minds to hang a man, was to hear him first. (A.
laugh.) Before they legislated they ought to have dis-
covered first whence the abuses had arisen ; for abuses, no
doubt there had been. The revenues of India had been
wasted in wars which had been entered into without the con-
currence of the company. The Affghan war, which had cost
1.5,000,000/., had had very little to do with India. After
the eulogiuni the right hon. baronet had passed upon the
Court of Directors, why should he destroy it, at least un-
til the termination of the period to which the present bar-
gain between the Government and the company extended
—namely, the year 1874 ? No doubt the present institu-
tions of India wanted mending, but the present measure
only disturbed and unsettled everything, without making
any material improvement. On these grounds he should
join in the protest of the hon. gentleman against the un-
statesmanlike character of the bill. (Hear, hoar.)
The SPEAKER then left the chair.
On clause 1,
Mr. PHINN moved to leave out the words " until Par-
liament shall otherwise prove," in the first lino ; and in
the third line, after the word "shall," to insert " be go-
verned by and in the name of her Majesty, her heirs and
successors." The house had affirmed, by a. large majority,
two propositions—first, that it was desirable to legislate
during the present session ; and secondly, that the East
India Company should be retained as an instrument for
managing that country. It still remaiued, however, for
the house to decide on the extent and the manner in which
the influence of the Crown should be exercised. The prin-
ciple of his amendment had been supported by Mr. Fox,
Lord Grenville, and other great statesmen ; and if it was a
matter of some importance in those days, when the different
India bills were mere leases from the Crown to the com-
pany, it became still more so at the present time, when Par-
liament was proposing to legislate permanently, and for an
uncertain period. (Hear, hear.) for the words " till
Parliament shall otherwise provide," they were a mere
pleonasm ; for of course Parliament would always retain
the power of altering any arrangements they might now
choose to make. The hon. baronet the member for Roches-.
ter (Sir T. Maddock), the lion. member for the West Rid-
ing, and another right hon. member, who had been Presi-
dent of the Board of Control, had all argued in favour of
asserting the authority of the Crown; but the right hon.
baronet (Sir C. Wood) did not in his able reply, at all ad-
vert to the subject. It had therefoye appeared to him
(Mr. Phinn) desirable that the specific question should be
submitted to Parliament, whether tine Government of
Lelia should or should not be carried on b, what had been
designated by more than one of the witnesses as a sham ?
On the whole, then, he (Mr. Phinu) thought the time had
come when Parliament ought to pronounce a distinct
opinion upon the question, and with that view he begged
to move the amendments. (Hear.)
Mr. LOWE objected to the first tmendment, on the
ground that it would afford a plea to the noble lord (Vis-
count Jocejyn), who had a motion on the paper, for limit-
ing the duration of the bill. The reason for limiting for-
mer acts arose from the company having been then a corn-
• mercial body ; and, therefore, all those acts were in the
nature of contracts ; but as that state of things had ceased
the necessity for limitation had also passed away. The
effect of the old system was to make people sleep till the
time for the renewal of the charter approached, and then
every species of complaint suddenly came to light. He
(Mr. Lowe) thought it was high time that such a system
should come to an end ; and that the plan of letting the
wheat and tare grow up together till' the harvest, had
better not be applied to our Indian Government. On the
contrary, they had better always keep their field as well
weeded as possible. If a man had any bodily ailments he
(lid not think of letting them increase and become more
complicated in order that ho might have them eradicated
by some scientific treatment at once; but he endeavoured
to have each case cured as soon as it manifested its pre-
sence. What, therefore, was good for the human body
was equally desirable for the body politic. He (Mr. Lowe)
did not see how anything like a healthy public opinion
with regard to India could over be created unless India
was understood to be always a subject upon which the Im-
perial Parliament could legislate. (Hear, hear.) He was
quite aware that the words proposed to be struck out were
mere surplusage ; but he nevertheless 'desired to retain
them in order that the Indian people might be assured
that though their rulers dwelt in a distant land, the Im-
perial Legislature was always ready to consider and cor-
rect any evils that might arise in the government of its
Indian possessions. (Hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY supported the amendment, and con-
tended that, if it were carried, it would not do away with
the double government. It proposed no alteration in the
form of the; home government, and could not, therefore,
be said to interfere with the double government. Of all
the witnesses who had been examined not one had said
that the change proposed would be ;injurious. This was,
to a great extent, a question of names ; but, so far as the
native princes, and all classes in Ihdia, were concerned,
the alteration would be a most favourable one.
After a few words from Sir C. WOOD, on a point of
order,
Mr. PHINN said he was willing to take any course
which would disembarrass the discussion. _

After a conversation the amendment was withdrawn.
Lord JOCELYN then moved an amendment, of which
he had given notice, to continue the act till the 30th April,
1864. It appeared to him that it was the duty of the
committee to take such a course that the subject should
necessarily come before Parliament again at the end of a
certain period; and it was important, when this took
place that it should not be brought forward as a partY
question. Ten years, he thought, was a period which
would allow the experiment to be fairly tried. If the
measure were found not to promote tho interests of the
people of India it would then be for Parliament to legis-
late in another direction. Whatever measure were passed
ought to have a fair trial, and the period of ten years was
not too short for this. It had bean objected that bills re-
lating to colonial government were not passed fora limited
Period ; but the cases were not at all parallel. It had also
been said that by fixing a period for the duration of this
act, it would cripple Parliament in reference to any al-
terations er modifications that might be required earlier. .
He did not think it would have that effect at all. If ho
believed that any member of Parliament had power to
bring forward the question whenever it might be necessary,
with any chance of being heard, ho should have refrained
from proposing this amendment.
Mr. M. MILNES opposed the amendment. He believed
that the government about to bo established would be a
good government, and that the affairs of that country
would be well administered.
Mr. HUME thought it unnecessary to fix any period.
He would leave the matter entirely open, to be.dealt with
after Mr. B
aL AfeCwKwEoTrdTs ufrpopomrtesdir tithe.
AameDnDdom
by Parliament at any time.
in favour
the amendment,
Mr. RICH said the bill was a mere experiment, and they
ought to ensure the subject being again brought before
Parliament. He should most certainly support the amend-
ment as ensuring the question again coming beforeparlia-
ment.

Mr. V. SMITH said the inevitable result of the amend-
ment would be to bar all discussion until the end of the 10
years. This had been to a great extent the case when the
charter was renewed for 20 years. When ho was Secretary
of the Board of Control they had the greatest difficulty in
procuring an attendance in the house to discuss any Indian
question. All who had voted for the second reading of
this bill had thereby expressed their approval of the form
of goverment proposed ; and if they thought the govern-
ment a good one, they could not consistently support the