The Sun.
London, England, 1838-07-21 00:00:00

. •
THE SIGN,
LONDON,
18."
JL
11DA U

ploying twenty-two children more than twelve hours. Before whom
was this case tried ? Before three Magistrates, who were all of them
mill-owners. The whole amount of penalties in that case, had they
been awarded, would have been 1601., and what did the House think was
the amount imposed for so flagrant a case ? It was reduced te,
171.—(Hear, hear)—which he (Lord A.) would venture to say wars n..ot
the result of 10 minutes' labour of the children whom he bad eves,
worked
for several hours. And this was the way in
which this
4"
.et was carried
on; The whole amount of the penalties imposed o'
these mlllowners
mace the Act came into operation, Ras tool.—(Hear, hear.)
By the regulation of the inspectors e
y child taking a certifi-
cate was bound to pay the Seronee "'.xpence for his trouble.—(Hear.)
Now what did the House ,',ink Iles been levied during the same period
of time upon the wal„es of all the children under 14 years of age ?
Why, a sum not 'dutch under 13,0001., and this it was to be re-
membered too, ear the certificates of surgeons, which, instead
of giving Pr°'settnn, afforded further opportunities of aggression.
If that certi 'atilt so to be taken out was given to the children, then he
should nst complain ; but when it was given to the ,naster, and
lieeawn".. the instrument of the child's oppression, the law suffer.
ine such a state of things to exist, it was tyrannical and vicious.
--(Enid cheers.) Such being the case, was it wonderful that
thee working classes should be discontented, and hold in contempt
the makers of the law, its vindicators, and the taw itself ? The educe_
Lion clauses were not observed in one-fiftieth of the mills; and where
there was a formal compliance with them the schooling given was a teem.
plete mockery.— (Cries of " Hcar, hear.") The Bill that was in-
troduced by the Noble Lord, and so very suddenly withdrawn, pointed
rnit the defects of the existing Act. He desired to see
that Bill introduced, because although it had. W%any objections, yet
there was a great deal in it that was hood. It would give
activity to the present law, and that was effecting something.
That year which had now to be passes!. in ignorance and suffering, might
have been passed as a year of hap,siness and moral and religious educa-
tion. The Noble Lord, however, thought otherwise. To leave the law
as it stood was unjust, as the child was made the sufferer ; It
was equally unjust to t'..e honest mill-owner who wished to obey the
law. In 1536, the jovernment brought forward a Bill, not for the
amendment of the law but to repeal one of its most essential provisions, by
which children under 14 years of age were prohibited from being worked
more than 12.. hours. That Bill was carried by only a majority of twe,which
induced t'se Government to withdraw the Bill, at the same time giving ae.
assurance—a pledge as strong as could be made—that the provisions of
the law should be strictly enforced. How was that pledge redeemed
—By an immediate and monstrous violation of the law. The Noble
Lore laughs—
'Lord J. RUSSELL—It is absurd.
Lord ASHLEY was very sorry ; but he had to repeat the statement,
for it was true. The Act required that before a child Could work 12 hours
a day, there must be a certificate in proof that t
`le child's age was 13.
Now the surgeon had actually been
Prohibite''s from asking gnestions
about the age; and it was said, " If reu find a child whom you
know with certainty to be not more than twelve years
of age, with such extraordinary devel'speenent as to be of the ordinary
streegth and appearance of 13, you will be justified in writing the
word " thirteen" in 1:,,e tertificate.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
With respect to the s'eodard used for measurement in the mills—in the
factory of the tr
--°"....Member for Oldham, out of 103 children in his
service between she ages of 9 and 13, there were 57 who were found to ex.
ceed the heir,'at ; and in another mill, out of 316 between the sameages,
there were found 71 who exceed the height, and they were transferred
from e' ght to twelve hours labour. He would not weary the House much
Thor because he thought that he had shown that repeated applications
h ed been made on the subject to the Government in vain. The Act was so
grossly imperfect that it could not be carried out—it was impossible for
the inspectors to enforce its provisions. The Noble Lord concluded by
moving that the House deeply regretted that the law affecting
the regulation of the labour of children in factories, having been
found imperfect and ineffective to the purpose for which it was
passed, had been suffered to continue so long without any amendment.
Tee motion having been seconded and put from the Chair,
Mr. FOX M A ULE had no fault to find. with the speech of the Noble
Lord, except that he had exhibited a picture to the House that was
both too highly drawn and coloureei, of what he called the miserable
condition of she factory children. The real question was, whether
that House had acted expediently or otherwise in foregoing the measure
which had been introduced not to alter but to amend the law and make
it operative. Bot',, the Government and that House admitted that their
intentions had r,ot, been carried out in the way in which the present law
was admini''.ered. The Noble Lord made a comparison between the
bills of m'srtality at Manchester and Birmingham, and then he urged
the Weise to express regret for one of their own acts. The
Noble 'Lord had talked largely of the mortality at Manchester and
Bitminghame but he had altogether forgot to inspect the grounds
'which had really occasioned that increase. At Manchester it
Was well known that a system of building had been adopted
rwhich was most destructive to human life. Houses were run
up in bad and unwholesome situations, and as an instance of this he
might state that even ditches had been taken advantage of, on account
of the excavations, for the erection of dwellings for human beings. It
was a great misfortune that there was no Building Act applicable to
Manchester, far to this the great mortality in that town was to be attri.
quted. In the reference which the Noble Lord had made to his (Mr.
Maule's) Noble Friend, he had misrepresented what fell from him. It
was the earnest desire of his (Mr. Maule's) Noble Friend to carry out
the measure for the protection of the factory children to the fullest
extent, and the Noble Lord must know that much had been done by
the Government with that view, and that a further effort would be
made in the course of next Session. When the Noble Lord asked
what the Government meant to do with respect to this law, he was
perfectly :aware of the circumstances which had led to the with-
drawal of the measure which had been introduced upon this sub-
ject. It had been given up only because it could not be properly
considered owing to the press of other matter. The Noble Lord ad-
mitted that the Bill which he (Mr. Maule) had brought forward was
satisfactory, for though he said it had some objectionable provisions, it
also contained much that was good. It certainly contained clauses for
improving the education of the children, and it was the intention of the
Government, from time to time, to take such steps as would render the
law as perfect as it was possible to make it. The Noble Lord had gone
through the whole of the districts of the inspectors, and perhaps he (Mr.
Maule) ought to explain why " nil" was returned from the district
sander the charge of Mr. Stewart. The fact was that that district had
been under the superintendence of Mr. Horner, and when Mr. Stewart
succeeded to it he found that the law was carefully obeyed, and hence
it followed that there had been no convictions to return. The Hon.
Gentleman read passages from the report of the Combination Committee
to show that the assertion of the Noble Lord as to the law being inope.
native in the north was unfounded, and contended that there was no
evidence to prove that the law had been violated in the mills in Glasgow.
He assertsd that in the amended Act the principle, as regarded
the ages of the children, and the periods of their work,
was in no wise interfered with, and that the object of it was to secure to
the children proper education combined with labour. He would at once
admit that the penalties were too low, and that the law had not been
enforced to a sufficient extent. It was true that in some few cases the
inspectors had been refused admission to the mills. This could not be
justified, and was, whatever might be the high character of the parties,
calculated to induce a suspicion with respect to the mill-owners sitting
as magistrates to adjudicate on their own cases. He must say that lie
thought that statement. overdrawn.
Lord ASHLEY—What I said was, that the sons and brothers acted
as magistrates in, such cases.
Mr. F. M .',VLF. said that even that was bad enough, and exhibited
a lamentable want of feeling, sense, and propriety if it were so. Such
persons, hOwever, were acting consistently with the law, and therefore it
was out of the power of the Government to interfere or tell them that
they ought not to sit in judgment on such occasions. It was no doubt
true that there was great vagueness about the surgeon's certificates, and
that uncertainty had rendered it impossible to lay down any definite
rule on the subject. Mr. Hume had, after much trouble, laid down a
rule for ascertaining the ages of the children, but as soon as the law
officers of the Crown hail determined that it was contrary to the spirit
and meaning of the Act, the regulation was rescinded. This was all
that the Secretary of State could do ; and so far from evincing anything
' like indefference, the Government had done all in their power to remedy
the 'evils represented to them by the Noble Lord and others, by in-
creasing the number of districts and inspectors. The Noble Lord ap-
peared to be carried away by a warm zeal for the amelioration of the
condition of those classes to whom his motion referred. But the Noble
.Lord ought to guard himself, lest in his great zeal to effect those inn
prcivements he contemplated, he might place the law in such a con_
dition with respect to these classes, that manufacturers would find it irn.
possible to carry on their business at all. What, then, would he the con-
sequence if such a result took place, and that thousands of these persons
were thrown upon the world in a state of idleness and destitution ?
If such were the case they would be exposed to far greater
evils than those which they had suffered from any improper regulations
of the fartoriea. He knew that the Noble Lord advocated a Ten Hours'
Bill. He again declared that the Government would be ready as early
possible in the next session of Parliament to remedy any defects which
might exist in the present state of the law, always, however, avoiding to
ttiterfere with those great principles of age and time adopted upon an
senderstanding with the manutacturers of the country. The motion of
the Noble Lord, he said it without intending any offence, pretended one
thing whilst in reality it meant another. lie (Mr. F. Marne) trusted
that the excitement which existed out of doors with respect to this ques-
tion would be allowed to rest during the intervening period until the
next session, when another Act would be brought into operation. He
did not hesitate to give the Noble Lord his solemn assurance that it was
the ineentinn of the Government to amend the law on this subject in the
near session of Parliament.
:31r W. JA DIES recollected that it had been somewhat ludicrously
-urged that the period of apprenticeship ought to terminate simulte.
neously with the Coronation. It was in the recollection of the House
that this subject appeared to excite a great deal of interest. The gal-
- leries were filled with gentlemen wearing broad brimmed hats, and clad
in grave and sober celoured garments. Now, he contended, that the
sufferings of those of our own country, who toiled in those factories,
had as strong a claim for sympathy and redress as those which ap-
peared to have excited, to such an extent, the feelings of the country.
He thought that it was the imperative duty of the Legislature to pre_
tact those children. The Legislature provided its sufficient protection
for the property of minors, and guarded them against waste and extra.
• eagance. let them recollect that the property of the poor man
was his labour, and that he was as much entitled to the protection rf
the lees, When the rich man spent his property he did injury to no
ode but himself. This. however, was not the case with the poor man ;
for when his labour was prematurely exhausted, or extravagantly
wasted, an injury was done to the productive power of the State.—
(Hear.) Surely it could never be thteuirrenilyterest nor their desire to see
worked out, and their minds
the labourers of the countryfilseremca
n ratulated his Noble Friend
debased and degraded.
on the same principle
(Lord Ashley) on the part he had takeng with respect to those suffering
I hid introduced a Bill
caslatsrast. intirjjeduNc'et)bilebiy'rieMirh.
ornratasion was agreed to, to in_
t;. iddler. that Bill was resisted; but as an
txpedient,and as the next best thing, a,e,,ed
quire into the condition of those engaged these factories, and the
evidence collected by the Commissioners disclosed a fearful state of
state of things was, they might
things.—(Hear, hear.) But bad as that
was
almost justified in saying
that it vas
own, ad
still in existence. The
evidence of the children themselves had been taken d
It disclosed a fearful and lamentable
condition.
labeur. That when they
They describedn
themselves as sick and tired after the day's
teturn
he ed to their homes in the evening they were obliged to throw them-
selves down from excessive fatigue. (T u e understood to be the
substance read by the
substance of an extract from the printed evidence
Honourable Baronet.) A physician
whose authority was en.
titled to respect, had published some observations on the
physical conditions of those children, and he stated that the labour in
which they were employed, ou account of its protracted duration, ren-
dered them liable to pains in various parts of the body, to slings of
P
the feet, and that these appearances often terminated in the 1
of serious, permanent, and incurable disorders. Upon the whole, the
subject called loudly for the attention of the Government. lie
day. regretters
On the subject o
that they had postponed the remedy for a single
these muses, sinon.,;st rgarly,other authorities, ho might appeal to the

.I)i.,i`ki O Mr. Senior. The Hon. Baronet here read an extract from a purpose. It happened that Mr, Horner, the inspector. w
lii.atement made by Mr. Senior, to the effect that such was the progres_ chester at the time fulfilling the duties of 1-ii office
sive increase of the fixed capital employed in manufactures, that to work ascertained that that Gentleman had not t'"
that capital profitably, there should be an increase in the time of labour. sonally known to the Noble Lord, e'•'
So that (continued the Hon. Baronet) the evils of which they complained, this his Lordship also declin- '
instead of decreasing, were rather upon the increase. The Hon. Mem- Lord ASHLEY ..
her for Oldham (Mr. Fielden, we believe) had published a statement of while he a"-
the condition of these factory children. The Hon. Member stated that utta-
until he made the calculation in his own factory, and under his own
eyes, he had no conception of the extent of the labour -*
these children endured. To his utter surprise, he fo," -
distance walked by a wretched child in the M,All'
was not less than twenty miles, and, in so.
greater. He did not concur in the high s-•
introduced by the Government in thin
ludicrous enactment with respftt, r•
a provision to the effect t'ayt s.
to time publish, or ifausa
and no child, 7fl-10 .-
derstood) t3,-, BP`
Holm.: 70.
f.:•.^-

that the
of twelve hours
~se cases it was e' "h
..naracter given to th'e Bill
session. The r“.'.l'contained a
the childroo-. In it was containnd
..ie Secretor!, 31 State should from time
to be publtshed, an easy book for children ;
.as unable tO read this book, should as we un-
able to read. The Noble Lord, the Secretary for the
~artment, has written a tragedy, which, he supposed, was to

.sit his name to posterity. The Noble Lord was now, however,
,u be employed upon the less noble labour of preparing a horn-book
for the factory children. The present question was a ❑ational ques.
lion which must come home to the business and bosoms of every Mem-
ber of the House, and in the hands of the House he was content to
leave it. He had lately looked into the life of Sir W. Scott, written by
Mr. Lockhart, and he had noticed an observation made by that great
man in passing through a manufacturing district. It was this—" The
justice of Heaven is requiting and will requite those who have
bloated this country into opulence at the expense of the happiness
and morals of the lower orders of the people."—(Hear, hear, hear.)

Mr. TURNER. wished to make one observation. He thought the
allusion to those who had crowded the gallery when the Negro Appren-
ticeship Bill was under discussign Was uncalled for. Though those who
were presant on that occasion were few, yet no less a number than fif-
teen hundred thousand P'.,rsons had petitioned Parliament for the termi-
nation of negro apr,:enticeship. The exertions of those individuals had
produced a bereticial result, and he was sure that all must respect the
motives 17y which they were influenced.
Sir W. JAMES said a few words in explanation, which were inau.
'h'ible in the gallery.

Sir R. BATESON concurred in the sentiments which the Noble
Lord had expressed, and which did so much honour to his heart, and
which had been expressed with an ability so creditable to his talents.
He resided in a part of Ireland where factories were rapidly increasing,
and he thought that he was acquainted with the sentiments both of the
employers as well as the individuals employed in those factories. It was
stated on a former evening, by the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland,
as well as by the Hon. Member for Dublin, that the parents of the
children employed in those factories were adverse to any alteration of
the present system, as the shortening of the hours of labour must have
the effect :of diminishing wages. He knew the feelings of the parents
of the children employed in that part of Ireland with:which he was con-
nected, and he did not believe that there was any amongst them so
slavish—so devoid of parental feeling—as to sacrifice the lives and
morals of their children for the sake of the few shillings that they could
earn ty those additional hours of protracted labour.

Mr. GILLON, as he had been made the subject of attack in one of
the party papers of the day, trusted that he would be afforded an oppor.
tunity of making an explanation of the circumstances to which the at.
tack referred. It had been stated that on the occasion which had been
fixed for the discussion of the Noble Lord's motion, he had entered into
a conspiracy with the Government to have the House counted out. The
Hon. Member proceeded to vindicate himself from an imputation pub-
lished against him to the above effect in the columns of a morning pa-
per. On the day in question he comedown to the House determined,
if he had met the Speaker's eye, to say a word in reference to an Hon.
Friend of his, who he thought had (as we understood) been talked un-
fairly of in his absence. On referring to the paper he found that his
Hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny had priority upon the paper.
He was, moreover, himself anxious to give notice •f a motion, and
when he found that he was baulked in both the objects which he
had in view in coming dawn to the House that evening, he got up,
and without consulting any one, moved that the House be counted.
He would like to know who would impugn the object he had in
doing so. With respect t• the question before the House, he (Mr!
Gillon) was much surprised at the statement of the Honourable Member
for Dublin that in Glasgow the Factory Act was trampled under foot,
and was respected by nobody. He would like to know on what autho-
rity that statement rested. The Hon. Member proceeded to explain
that in Glasgow the Bill had been carried into full effect, and that the
millowners gave every facility to the snperintendents and inspectors to
see that the objects of the Act were fully and properly accomplished.
In the borough which he represented factories had been established
with the greatest possible advantage to the people, and, as far as Scotland
was concerned, the Act had been carried into effect in a very satisfactory

manner.
Mr. R. FERGUSON rose for the purpose of vindicating the pro.
prietors of two respectable factories in his neighbourhood from any im-
putations that were made as to the evils of the system generally. So
far from having a desire to employ children contrary to the provisions of
the Act, they were most. anxious to give the inspector every facility to
examine every part of the works, in order that everything in the
management of their factories should be carried on in an above-board
and straightforward manner.
Mr. G. WOOD said, as the Noble Lord had alluded to the conduct of
some magistrates of the county of Lancashire, he wished the Noble Lord
to state on what authority he grounded the statement, and also to name
the particular case to which he alluded.
Lord ASHLEY, in reply to the question of the Hon. Gentleman,
had taken the case to which he had adverted on the authority of the
official statement. The case occurred on the 9th of March, 1837. The
name of one of the offending parties was Scholefield. (The Noble
Lord here referred to the official Report, and read from it an abstract
of the case, together with the names of the magistrates present,
Wood, Esq., D. Potter, Esq., and another whose name we did not
distinctly hear.)
Mr. G. WOOD said that, as the Noble Lord had accoirmanied his
reference to the case with severe censures upon the conduct of the ma-
gistrates engaged in it, he trusted the House would allow him to ex.
plain that conduct, and to vindicate himself from those imputations.
The Noble Lord had stated that the cue had been dismissed in ten or
twelve minutes.
Lord ASHLEY—The Hon. Member had mistaken what he had
stated, as he had said no such thing.
Mr. G. WOOD was bound to say, then, that he had mistaken the
Noble Lord, and be willingly accepted his disclaimer. When he found
from the clerk of the Petit Sessions at Middleton that a number of sum-
monses had been issued, and as the cases were of a description that did
not usually come before that bench, he felt extreme anxiety that there
should be a full attendance of magistrates when they came to be consi-
dered. There were only two magistrates generally sitting at those ses.
sions, which had (as we understood) been only recently established.
Knowing the anxiety which these cases excited in the public mind, he
wrote to his colleagues, expressing his desire that there should be as full
an attendance as possible. There were three magistrates in attendance
on the occasion of hearing those charges. Instead of dismissing the
charge in ten minutes, they went in succession through the entire of the
several cases, and stated that they would reserve their decision respect-
ing any one case until theyhad gone through them all. After having heard
the cases they remained at least an hour in deliberation as to what were
the penalties that ought to be inflicted, or whether they would class the
cases according to their several demerits, and apportion the penalties ac.
cordingly. The parties admitted their guilt, and the magistrates pro-
ceeded to levy such penalty as they deemed proportionate to the chas
racter of the offence. Feeling that no inquiry had before taken place
in that Court, they were determined to inquire fully into the circum.
stances, the more particularly as much public interest had been ex-
cited on the subject, and it was equally for the interest of the menu.
facturers and the operatives that the real facts should be generally
known. They found in not one of these mills had there been any pre.
vious complaint of a violation of the law; and they, therefore, felt
themselves entitled to treat the charge brought before them (the Magis-
trates) as the first offence, and, therefore, to deal more leniently than if
it had been of frequent occurrence. The offences, moreover, were all
committed in country mills in which the factory law was scarcely
known, and in which the proprietors and superintendents had most pro.
bably never received any instructions from the inspectors with regard to
that law. In all those cases penalties were imposed. There were three
or four other cases in which the parties pleaded not guilty. With re-
spect to these they (the Magistrates) determined to appoint another day
for hearing. A day was fixed, and the case investigated at great
length ; all the parties were punished except one ; this was a case in
which a manufacturer was charged with working a child of nine years
old. The evidence against the manufacturer seemed at first very
strong ; but on the other hand, the parish register, and that of
the nurse who suckled the child, gave it a complete contra-
diction. In this case the party was acquitted. A heavy penalty
was also inflicted on the convicted parties, as having, by their
plea of not guilty, put the complainant to considerable expense.—(Hear,
hear) The following day's proceedings occupied three hours.
Knowing these facts, and knowing also that his brother magistrates
and himself had been actuated by the strongest desire to do their duty
impartially, he was very much surprised afterwards to find that one of
the deputation by whom their proceedings wee laid bafote Parliament
disapproved of the course they had pursued. The Report he alluded
to was that of Mr. Horner, dated January 18, 1837. (The Honour.
able Member here read an extract from Mr. Horner's Report, con-
demning the proceedings of the Middleton Magistrates.) He made the
most anxious inquiries as to the public opinion of the manner in which
these offences had been treated, and he had the satisfaction to say that
he did not hear in the entire neighbourhood an unfavourable opinion of
their decision.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had stated—he
(Mr. Wood) did not know on what authority—that the majority of the
magistrates alluded to were millowners. To this he must give the most
unqualified contradiction. He (Mr. Wood) was not a rnillowner.
Lord ASHLEY intimated that it was not millowners he had called
them, but persons connected with mills.
Mr. WOOD— At the the Noble Lord spoke it was his (Mr. Wood's)
impression that he had called them three mill owners; but of course he
WAS bound to accept the Noble Lord's explanation. The fact was, that
he had for several years been a millowner, and great part of the pro-
perty he now enjoyed he owed to operative industry. This he was not
ashamed to avow, but at the time of the inquiry he had no interest in
mills, nor, he believed, had any of the Gentlemen with whom he asso..
ciated. There was one other circumstance to which he wished to at..
lude. There were only two instances in which he had acted under the
factory law, it having been from the first his determination to take no
part whatever, lest his conduct might be suspected on accouut of his
connection with the mills. It was by none of his seeking that the
Bench of Magistrates over which he presided was selected by the Re.
formers to inquire into their case; but when they had done so he im-
mediately determined not to shrink from the ordeal. Since that time
not a single case had come before him, and he could assure the Noble
Lord that nothing would give him greater pleasure than to be removed
from such inquiry altogether. He thought, however, he was justified
in saying that the inquiry in which he had been engaged had
fully answered its intended purpose. The House would permit
him to say that, living as he did in the midst of the menufac.
turing districts, and feeling an anxious desire for the welfare and
improvement, intellectual, moral, and religious, of the operative popula-
tion, and knowing that these were only to be effected by constant and
vigilant attention, he felt a strong interest himself in proceeding under
this Act, and he declared that a great deal of what had been uttered on
the subject at present under discussion was gross exaggeration.—(Hear,
hear.) It could not be expected that an Act dealing with such vast
interests as the entire manufactures of the country could be brought
into operation like a beautiful pieceof clockwork or a battalion of sol-
diers. The House would see that it was inevitable that the first work-
ing of such a measure must be imperfect, and that, without any designed
violation of the Act, many causes of complaint would occur. But in-
stead of reading partial extracts from the reports of inspectors, they
ought to read those reports entire—(Hear, hear)—as a mass of testimony
coming from a highly.respectable and intelligent body of men who had
been deputed by the State to sec the laws carried into effect. The
'Act had done touch important good and had removed many crying
evils, to two of which only he would allude. It had contracted the
hours of labour in every trill where the labour had previously exceeded
a reasonable time, and it led to the employment of a much smaller
number of children in those mills, In Manchester few were
employed under thirteen years; and when younger children were
employed it was in the tine and trimming department, where
they were absolutely necessa:y ; but even then, in many cases, the system
of double sets had been introduced. He could not conclude without ex.
pressing the great regret and surprise he had experienced when he had
the honour of meeting the Noble Lord in the streets of Manchester, and
found that the Noble Lord, although never having been in the district
before, seemed unwilling to examine himself into the condition of the
mills. He (Mr. Wood), on that occasion, tendered to the Noble Lord
his endeavour to procure him admission into every mill in the place, and
he certainly understood from the Noble Lord's conversation (he might
have been mistaken) that he (the Noble Lord) had already made up his
mind on the subject, and that he did not consider it necessary to pur,ue
any further inquiry ; and also, that' his time was too limited fur the

as in Man-
; he (Mr. Wood)

advantage of being per.
proposed to introduce him ; but

_a.
dusted he should be indulged with tt NW MC:tents
,cred the strongest and nictt tlhrOtilided imputations ever
.ed in public or private. ltbl/2't totild the Hon. Member assert that
lie (Lord Ashley) wthk, t-6 ganchester and refused to inspect the mills,
when the fart was that he inspected every mill in the place ?—(Hear.)
Did tl!e lion. Member mean to say that he (Lord Ashley) did not go
1411.;) him to Mr. Burley's mill, that he did not accompany him round the
town ; could he, in fact, point out one singleplace in which inspection
was declined ? How little must the Hon. Member know of his visit to
Manchester, when the fact was that he (Lord Ashley) visited every mill
in the town? For this he would appeal to the lion. Member for Sal.
ford, who accompanied hint. Did the Hon. Member know how he
(Lord Ashley) spent his nights while in Manchester ? He went to
the garrets and the cellers of the operatives to make inquiries from the
fathers and the mothers, and to ascertain the state of the children with
his own eyes. And was he now to be told, when he brought the result
of these inquiries and labour before the assembled Commons of Eng.
land, that he had resisted all investigation, and had declined the
Honourable Member's valuable assistance P--- (Hear, hear.) On one
point alone he declined it, and that was the introduction to Mr Homer.
This he did decline, and on these grounds ; he thought it would not
have been fair to meet a man in private society at the convivial board,
to obtain there his private opinions and feelings, and afterwards to ex-
press his (Lord Ashley's) opinion of his conduct as freely as his public
duty might require. These were his reasons for declining the lion.
Member's oiler of introduction, and this was the only case in which he

refused his assistance.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WOOD should certainly have been proud if the Noble Lord had
accepted his invitation; but that seas not the circumstance to which he
had alluded. It was the fact of his having requested the Noble Lord
to accompany Mr. Horner on his inspection of the mills. The Noble
Lord said he visited Mr. Burley's mills. He did so, but that was the
only mill he visited. Most assuredly he (Mr. Wood) on that occasion
offered his best services to procure him admission to all the mills,
but he understood his Lordship to decline, and it was only on
intercession of the Honourable Member for Salford that he was induced
to change his intention. He (Mr. Wood) was surprised that the Noble
Lord, when he did visit these mills, made no inquiry of Mr. Burley
himself, of the work.people, or the Superintendents.—(Hear.)
Mr. 11 ROTHER'FON was in justice to the Noble Lord bound to
state that he (Mr. Brotherton) accompanied him to several mills, and
he must say that on those occasions the Noble Lord showed no indis-
position to ascertain the real state of the manufacturing population__
(Hear, hear.) He considered that the present Act was so complicated
that it could not be carried into effect. He had stated those sentiments
during the progress of the Bill through that House, and opposed every
clause; and he did think, considering the attention he had devoted to
the subject—and the Inspectors had since borne him out in the asser-
tions he then made—that his opinion was entitled to some little atten.
tion. He considered that the main object of the Act was to protect
young people from excessive labour, and he thought he should be able to
show that it was constantly violated both by masters and operatives. In
proof of its violation he had only to allude to what had been said by
the Noble Lord, and to the return which he (Mr. Brotherton) had the
honour of moving for. By that return it appeared there were
4,000 mills in which 360,000 children were employed, and
that during three years in which he Act had been in operation,
there had been '2,000 convictions, and penalties inflicted to the
amount of 0,5001. Now, these '2,000 convictions, out of 4,000 estab.
lishments, were enormous in the time, and proved the difficulties which
stood in the way of obedience to the Act. Another error in the Act
was, that by it children of six years old might be worked for ten hours
in a spinning mill, while in a cotton mill those of twelve and thirteen
years were limited to eight hours' labour. From this and the frauds to
which its evasion led, he felt convinced that the Bill did not give the
protection which it was designed to give. In his opinion he was coin-
pleely borne out by the testimony of the inspectors. (The Honourable
the Member herefrequent
violations
ieoitntsr extracts s
thef roime then
H testimonyou rßi of the inspectors, proving
, and the evil consequences
of such violations as exhibited in the wan and haggard appearance of
the children. He begged to call the attention of the House to another
fact, which was that, in 1835, 60,000 children, under thirteen years,
were employed, and that now there were not more than 10,000.
( Hear, hear.) He thought that next Stssion this Act should be repealed
as, while its intention was to enlighten the labour of the children, its
tendency had hitherto been to cause them to work for much longer
periods. He was not prepared to say, however, that they could reduce
the hours of labour without increasing the price of the produce, or else
reducing taxation, to enable the British manufacturer to compete with
the foreigner. If the foreigner could buy cotton at ls. 9d. a pound,
when we paid :2s, he would of course be able to undersell us. Thus,
taxes on cotton, and on corn, must go, if we limited the hours of labour.
Mr. O'CONNELL did not know any subject on which it was more
easy to talk a heap of good natured nonsense, to give expression at the
same time to very floe feelings, and exceedingly absurd political eco-
nomy.—(Hear, hear,) The reason why he now intruded on the House
was, that, having said some time ago that in the evidence given before
the Combination Committee it was found that the law had been violated
in Glasgow, and, when carried int, effect, had been greatly injurious to
the adult operative, he wished now to set himself right with the House
—to show that his assertion was not without foundation—by reading
from the report of the Committee three or four questions and answers.
This evidence, he must observe, was not given by master manufactu-
rers, but by operative cotton-spinners—by Campbell and M`Nish, office
bearers to the Union of Glasgow—both men of strong sense; and when
Isis Hon. Friend talked of educating the cotton-spinners, he (Mr. O'Con-
nell) could tell them that these men had read a great deal, and thought
a great deal. In page 50, and question d 39, the witness Campbell gave
this testimony :
" Mr. O'Connell—What is the age at which children are now taken
into the spinning mills at Glasgow ?—I believe the law says 13 years of
age, to work twelve hours a day ; but I dare say there are some taken
earlier than that.
" Are they taken in at nine ?--Yes.
" Is it your opinion that the law is honestly worked out by not taking
In children under nine, or do you think there is any fraud ?—I must say
distinctly that the operative cotton-spinner is necessitated to overlook
the law in order to keep his machine moving, by taking Young children
in below thirteen, for twelve hours a day, and below nine for eight hours
a day.
" Lord Ashley—To your knowledge the law is set at defiance ?—lt
was a matter of necessity ; the mills would stand still if such was not the

practice.
" Mr. O'Connell—Do you mean to say that it is impracticable to ad.
here to the law in that respect ?—As far as my personal experience goes
I mean to say—and I have a good deal of experience in the matter, hay.
ing taken a very warm interest in that very question—that it is altoge-
ther impracticable to carry out the spirit of the present law as it now
stands." That was the evidence of one cotton spinner ; this the evie
Bence of another.
" Mr. O'Connell—Were you rightly understood to have said that the
law is violated with respect to the age of the piecers, and that they are
brought in younger than thelaw allows ?—Yes, the law is violated.
"And generally violated ?—Yes ; and our employers are throwing
all the responsibility of that violation of the law upon the operative.
The operative is obliged to violate it or allow his machinery to stand."
At page 68, question 1,363, this was said:—
" Mr. O'Connell--But you are understood to say that the work could
not go on as it does now, unless you employed these piecers under the
legal age of thirteen ? --That is my opinion, that the work could no go
on without employing children from nine to twelve years of age.
" And employing them the entire twelve hours ?—Yes.
" Mr. Wakley—You mean that manufacture could not go on for the
same number of hours, but you do not mean that the manufacture would
be stopped altogether, if no children were employed under the legal age ?
—I mean that the mills wouln be stopped."
That, then, was the case so far as Glasgow was concerned. The wit-
nesses proved that the law had been distinctly violated in Glasgow, that
it could net be carried out—(Hear)—that the mills would have been
stopped—and that if children under thirteen years of age had not been
employed, the machinery sheuld have been stopped. The case as to
Manchester was proved by John Doherty, as intelligent and as highly
educated as any man could be expected to be, and a great agitator, too,
for a Ten Hours' Bill. Ha was one of the leading men for many years
amongst them who agitated on that subject. He was also secretary to
his Union. In page 266 he gave this testimony :
" Mr. O'Connell—Has the mode in which the Act has been enforced
been burdensome to the operative?—Exceedingly so.
"In what way ?—To the spinner it has been exceedingly 30 to the
amount of several shillings a week in his wages.
" Describe how?—When the factory workers all came and left the
mill together, the difficulty was not so great in getting a sufficient num.
her of children to attend to the work ; but since that has happened the
spinner is anxious to get children old enough to continue the total num.
ber of hours, so that he might not be subjected to the inconvenience of
changing ; that has lessened the number of children iti the cotton.
mills, and turned them into the silk-mills : and the consequence has been
that children who were receiving 2s. 2d. a week are now receiving
4s. S., and in proportion to the other piecers ; the older piecers have not
increased.
" You said the Act had been disobeyed ?—Yes it has.
" In what respect only has it been disobeyed ?—ln respect to all its
provisions, but snore particularly as to the eight-hour workers.
" Then instead of only being worked eight hours, the chilrdren who
cught to work only eight hours arc worked twelve or thirteen. —Yes,
by the aid of certificates from the surgeons, or connivance, or something
ofthat kind ; sometimes the connivance of the surgeon, the parent, and
the employer."
In fact any legislation on that subject which affected the adult was con.
trary to the doctrines of sound policy. He would admit the propriety of
legislating for the protection of persons not of age, fur that was
sanctioned by constitutional law, but adults should be left to their
own guidance as to the manner in which they may think fit to
dispose of their labour. It was very difficult for any Legislature
to interfere between parents and children. The Legislature, it was
true, had a legal right ; but then a stronger right—a natural right—
existed in parents; and the heart of the mother must be hard
indeed if her feeling towards her own child was not stronger
than—he would not say the affected, he would admit it to be real—
feelings of those who advocated the cause of the factory children in
that house. What the mother who suckled her own child I Oh, aas
it not frightful to think that circumstances should render it necessary to
legislate for the purpose of protecting the child against its own mother ?
Surely poverty must have made the hearts of such mothers as hard as
their hands, if such legislation was necessary:—(Hear.) There was one
way of obviating these evils. Would the advocates of humanity do one
thing ? Would they give bread cheap ? He heard with admiration the
speech of the Noble Lord who had opened the debate. Ile admired his
talent, and he respected his humanity; but he had hoped that the speech
would have ended with some proposition practically beneficial. The
Noble Lord should have ended by moving that the tax on coin be done
away with.—(Cheers from the Radical section.) He respected the Noble
Lord, but he did not think much of the humanity which only looked to
the class who made bread dear.—(Renewed cheers.) Let the Noble
Lord propose the repeal of the Corn Laws.—(Repeated cheers.) A
penny reduction in the loaf would save half an hour's labour per diem to
every factory child. He was glad that the question had been brought
forward. He was glad of the doleful wall en behalf of the
factory children.—(Loud cries of " Oh, oh.") He admitted that
there was cause for interference on the part of the Legislature ; but he
would at the same time say that the Act of Parliament could not be
worked out. It never could be worked out but by a great increase of
the inspectors. He had heard much of the proceedings of magistrates.
Ile never was much in love with time Irish magistracy, although he was
himself one of them ; but, as the case was shown to-night, they were
not quite so bad as the English. Ile never heard of one of them en-
tertaining a charge against his own son. By whom had that magistrate
been appointed ? He must surely be a rank Whig ?—(Laughter.) It a
revision of the magistracy should take place, every magistrate should
be dismiseed against whom such a case could he proved.—(Hear, hear.)
When the Bill was before the House he (Mr. O'Connell) refused to
assent to it, without an assurance that there should be a sufficiency of
inspectors to carry it into effect. Upon that understanding he voted
for it ; and he would now say, either repeal the Bill or allow a sufli.
of inspectors
ciency to carry it into effect. It appeared to him that the
cry with respect to factory children was.a mere make-believe. The real
objecter
fvoi %y
Salford,vu • a was to,,pirtoheii
there
ca. r flours'
became him, and which lie' MlL—Meat) The Hon.
equally became— (Laughter)—liad admitted this. Now it should be
remembered that the cotton trade had made the greatest addition to the
resources of this country. Indeed it was very questionable whether
without it we could have borne the burthen of the National Debt. What
it had achieved for the country in the way of commercial advantage
was incalculable,; and who was there who would say that it was not
likely to effect as much more. We, however, were beginning to have
competitors in Belgium, France, l'russia, and Switzerland, and when
the bloody scenes now enacting in Spain and Portugal should happily
cease, we were likely to find new rivals, who would grow the cotton in
one instance and turn it into cloth iti another. What wise statesman,
then, would propose to restrict the labaur of the artizau in this country

to ten hours ? Would twelve hours' labour enable him tO c.Siripctf
with the Belgian, who had cheap bread? Ne. The interference with,
the labour of the artizan at Manchester, so far from serving his children,
Would retince thent td starvation; and bring the owner of the manu.
itztoty to the workhouse—(Deaf, hear, heat.) Capital would
Migrate to where it would find employment. They might as well at.
tempt to confine steam as to confine capital. It had light aerial wings,
and any attempt to confine or fetter it by legislation, would only hate
the effect of making it fly off, and settle down where it could find cheap
bread.— (Hear, hear.) He was not less humane than others. He was
desirous of doing all in his power to advance the public good, but he
would not attemp to do so under any delusion. He admitted that fathe'..*s
and mothers ought to be prevented from permitting their children to
over labour, but then the inducement to make them labour, by keeping
dear bread, ought to be done away with. If the object was to procure
a Ten Hours' Bill, let the object be avowed—(Hear, hear)—and let
Hon. Members say whether, in the teeth of foreign competition, they
were prepared to restrict by legislation the labour of adults.—(Hear,
hear.) The British peop'e claimed common sense as their peculiar at.
tribute; they left the lighter graces and more polished characteristics to
other nations. Was it in keeping with their character of common sense
—was it not ludicrous, under an affectation of morbid humanity—to do
that which must ultimately starve the operatives, and make the menu.

facturers beggars?—(Cheers.)
Mr. BENETT wondered that no danger was apprehended from the
too great increase of our cotton factories. The distress of the hand-
loom weavers who had been thrown out of employment ought to have
induced such a fear. With respect to the vulgar clamour against Corn
Laws, in which he was sorry to find the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin join, he should remind the House that any injury done to
the agricultural interest would be most injurious to the home trade.
Opening the ports to foreisn corn would have the effect of reducing
wages to the lowest standard, and would be of no advantage to the
operative classes. He had himself a deep personal interest in the agri-
cultural prosperity of the country, yet he would at once abandon the
Corn Laws if he thought, in doing so, he could benefit the labouring
classes; but he would not sacrifice the health of those classes for any

amount of wealth, however large.—(Hear.)
Sir R. H. INGLIS regretted that any attempt should be made to
divert a question of Christian humanity into any other channels He
denied that they attempted to legislate for adults. They wished to
legislate for those who were not free agents, and who therefore needed
protection. By the confession of the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin, who appeared in this case to be the leading counsel both for
the Government and the millowners, the present did not prove effec.
tive, nor was it likely to prove so. His Noble Friend who brought for.
ward this question was at the head of a large party— (Ironical cheers
from the Ministerial Benches)—not, however, as that cheer seemed to
imply, for his own benefit, but for the benefit of those whose cause he
advocated.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that this year, for the first time, it was evi-
dent that the question was considered with a view as to whether party
advantage would not be derived from its discussion.—(Ministerial
cheers.) If he had any doubt—and he confessed he had considerable
doubts—whether amongst the several Bills which, from the pressure of
public business, it was thought necessary to renounce, this should not be
one of the first; that evening's discussion had convinced him that it
would be highly inexpedient, in the month of July, to renounce other
Bills for the purpose of bringing forward one relating to factories.—
(Hear, hear.) Enough had occurred in the course of the. evening to
prove to him that if the Bill which it was intended to bring in had
been introduced, though it was only an explanatory measure to
clear up and carry Into effect other enactments, it could not
have been so introduced without creating great collision of opinion
both upon one side of the House and upon the other. The House
had heard the opinion of the Hon. Member for Salford—an opinion in
which he was supported by other Hon. Members—that the hours of
labour ought to be fixed, and the manufacturers ought not to be allowed
to extend the time, even with the consent of the labourers, but be bound
down to a certain time.—(Hear, hear.) That was one view of the case
taken by one party. Another opinion had been expressed by the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin, who contended that all legislative in-
terference with the regulation of hours of labour must necessarily fail
to produce any beneficial results, and would only counteract the na-
tural tendency to adjust itself. Another question had also been
brought into discussion which had beets deprecated by the lion. Mem.
ber for Wiltshire, and the Right Hon. Member for the University of
Oxford, namely, the question of the Corn-laws, which the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin insisted should be repealed if the hours of
labour were restricted.—(Cheers.) If, as the Hon. Member for Sal-
ford would have it, a Ten Hours' Bill was agreed to, did he not know
the difficulty there would be in competing with those countries where the
Sovereign could say, " Come here, and you shall have unrestricted hours,
and bread as cheap as it can possibly be obtained." The Hon. Member
for Dublin further argued that if the proposition of the Noble Lord
opposite (Ashley) were agreed to it would send the manufacturers out of
the country, and then there would be the complaint, not that the opera.
tives were worked beyond their strength and sinew, but that they would
be reduced to the most miserable state of distress, not having a particle
of bread to eat. If this should prove to be the case—if the hours of
labour were restricted, if capital departed, and if there were no employ.
ment for labour, could the Corn-laws be continued ; could bread be
denied to the starving poor at as cheap a rate as it could be procured in
other countries ?—(Hear, hear.) The question of the Factory laws evi-
dently involved others of the most vital importance; and it was too
hard, on the 20th of July, to call for what was virtually a censure upon
the 230 Members of the House who thought the measure ought not to
be discussed this session. The debate clearly proved that the Bill which
it was intended to introduce, though only a measure of regulation, could
not be brought forward without the introduction of other questions so
grave and important that he would prefer, at the present period of
the session, suffering the law to remain as it was than to raise these
questions.—(Hear, hear.) The object of the Factory Act was
on the one hand to regulate the labour of the factory children, and on
the other to take care that there should be no stoppage of employment,
by which alone both children and parents would be enabled to procure
bread. He was ready, if time permitted, to press forward a Bill to
make the Act more perfect ; but he did not expect to be able altogether
to prevent a violation of the Act any more than he could hope to prevent
poaching by the Game Laws, smuggling by the Revenue Laws, or mal-
practices at elections by the Bribery Acts.—(Hear, hear.) As these
laws were constantly violated, so also would be the Factory Act, so
long as the desire of profit, on the one hand, and of bread on the other,
should tempt the violation. One thing had been alluded to on which
there was much misrepreseptation. The Noble Lord admitted that the
Inspectors had exhibited great seal, and that any violations of the law
arose more out of want of power than want of vigilance. The
reference made to Mr. Horner required some explanation. The
real state of the case was this :—by the present law there were
no means of ascertaining exactly the ages of children. The
Act required certificates as to the ages of nine and thirteen, but it did
not specify the mode of ascertaining it. Mr. Horner knew that there
were many violations of the law. He knew that many children were
stated to be thirteen years old when they were in reality under that age,
and, being anxious to carry out the spirit of the law, he gave directions
that it was not sufficient to have the years, but that care should be taken
to see whether the strength and general appearance accorded with the
statement. Now, the Noble Lord had omitted to mention this.—
(Ministerial cheers.) The Noble Lord had quoted that part of the
direction which said " abstain from qnestioning as to age," but then
he stopped short in the middle of the sentence : the passage went on to
say, " for the true answer will probably not be given, and the reply will
be more calculated to mislead than to assist." Mr. Homer knew that
the statement of the child would often be fallacious, but he directed
the surgeon to look to the general strength and appearance.—(Ministe-
rial cheers.) He admitted that Mr. Horner had committed an error of
great magnitude. He said in his directions that physical strength rather
than the actual age was the thing to be ascertained. Theg, though the child
might be thirteen years of age, still, if its developement proved weak
or imperfect so as to give it only the appearance of twelve, that twelve
should be the age set down in the certificate. On the other hand, if the
age were given as only twelve, and that the developements were equal
to thirteen, the certificate would be given for the latter age.—(Opposi-
tion cheers.) Still, if the directions of Mr. Horner were taken altoge-
ther, it would be seen that he was most anxious that the spirit of the
Act should be carried out. A memorial had been forwarded to him
(Lord J. Russell) stating that children under thirteen years of age had
been employed for a longer period than was warranted by the Act. He
at once applied to the law officers on the subject, and they gave it as their
opinion that under no circumstances should a child under thirteen years
receive the thirteen years' certificate. The error was pointed out first,
instructions were given, and these instructions were strictly adhered
to.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord (Ashley) appeared to take to him.
self the glory of this ; and if the Noble Lord was so satisfied with him.
self, he (Lord J. Russell) would not deprive him of the advantage.
Whether the honour belonged to the Noble Lord or not, the view which
he gave to the House of the conduct of Mr. Homer was anything but
fair.—(Ministerial cheers.) The same spirit pervaded the whole
of the Lord's statement. He took particular passages and dwelt upon
them, for the purpose of showing that the law had been violated.—
(Hear, hear.) He (Lord John Russell) admitted that the law had been
violated, but even admitting this, let the House reflect upon the im-
provement which had been consequent upon the law. The Noble Lord
himself testified as to the vigilance of the inspectors, and as to their
wish to do justice. The inspectors thought the law might be made
more clear and more effective to reach the persons of those who con.
tumaciously persisted in violating the law. He (Lord John Russell)
agreed this could be effected, but when a Bill was to be proposed for
this purpose they should have to weigh between the two extreme
opinions, namely, whether the labour of adults should be legislated
for as well as the labour of children,,and the other equally important
question, whether they should or should not legislate at all on
the subject.— (Hear, hear, hear.) He hoped the House would
not come to a resolution such as that proposed by the Noble
Lord. The adoption of the resolution would be a most ridiculous termi-
nation to the labours of the Session, and he hoped that the House would
not think of agreeing to it.—(Hear.) Several most important Bills
were subject to be postponed, the Quarter Sessions Bill for instance,
which had been postponed at a great inconvenience ; yet it could not be
avoided in consequence of the period of the Session. There are many
persons now in prison who would only be confined four or five weeks if
that Bill passed, and who in consequence of its postponment will be
now confined six weeks, or in some cases two months. This was a
Bill which they were most anxious to pass, and yet it had been una-
voidably postponed. The Hon. Member for Kilkenny who had taken a
good deal of interest in the Bill, might just as well now stand up and
blame him (Lord J. Russell) for not having introduced and passed it as
the Noble Lord opposite, and he would be as justified in attributing
blame to him.
Mr. GOULBURN said the conduct of the Government alone gave
rise to the motion of his Noble Friend. It was a motion to carry into
effect the principle which the Legislature had already acknowledged and
acquiesced in. If this opportunity were taken to discuss the subject it
was not to his Noble Friend that it should be attributed, but to those
who prevented the introduction of the subject at an earlier period.—
(Hear, hear) The objection of the Noble Lord opposite to the resolu.
Lion, if it held good, would apply to every other interference for the
purpose of improvement in legislation as well as to that, if it could be
maintained, but he (Mr. Goulburn) denied its application. The Noble
Lord, in explaining the reasons which had induced him to postpone the
Bill, had stated that during the session much time had been consumed
in debating at length subjects of no great' importance, and amongst
others he had quoted the ease of the Roxburghshire election
petition, which had been so fully debated in that House.
Who was it, he would ask, who prolonged unnecessarily
the debate upon that question for two separate nights to
serve their own purposes ? The Hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Noble
Lord sad that was a subject on which party feeling should not be directed
or brought to bear. lie (Mr. Goulburn) fully concurred in this view ;
he was not anxious to have it made a party question, his only wish was
to protect the children elnpleyed in the factories—to afford them that
defence which, from their tender age, they could not enforce for them.
selves. When Sir Robert Peel and the lion. Member for Nottingham
first brought forward the subject, it had not been looked upon as a party
question, higher motives were attributed to them, and he could not now
listen to the charge, that it was introduced for a party purpose, without
offering his forcible dissent from that allegation. How could this charge
be borne out ? The facts of the case furnished the most conclusive evi.
deuce, if such were required, that it was brought forward for no other
purpose than that which it avowed, namely, to give additional
force to the laws already in existence, but which had been proved to
have been ineffectual for the attainment of the purpose for which they
had been framed. When his Noble Friend had first introduced the
subject, so far was he from considering it in the light of a party question
that he rested satisfied with the promise of the Goveimment that they
would introduce a Bill upon the subject, and it was only in consequence
of their not having fulfilled that promise that he now brought forward
his motion. His Noble Friend had asked no mere when the Govern-
ment had offered to take it out of his hands until he saw the abandon-
ment of the measure, and then he thought it was time to take it up.
No one who had an interest in that important subject could avoid feel-
ing sorrow and regret that it should have been taken from the
Noble Lord by the Government, who, from the course which had
been pursued, appeared to have adopted it only to is destruction. It
was a subject of too Much importance to be allowed to drop in that