The Sun.
London, England, 1853-07-09 00:00:00

measure might be called the Constitutional Act for their
Indian Empire. It was of a totally different character
from that of former measures relating to the subject, inas-
much as they were all of a temporary nature, whereas this
was a permanent measure. The provisions of such a mea-
sure ought to be simple, clear, and comprehensive ;- but
what were the characteristics of this measure ? He asked
the President of the Board of Control whether he had the
slightest idea of the number of enactments revived. He
hoped he should not be told that this was a question of
time, and that Government had not time to do it. Now
Government should cut out for themselves only so much
work as they could get through satisfactorily. But the
only time that could possibly be lost by the reconstruction
of this measure would be the time which would be occu-
pied, which would not be "more than a few days, in
transcribing the various acts which it was intended to
revive, • for he supposed when he proposed to revive
these acts, he did it from a deliberate knowledge of their
contents. The first clause he thought ought to be post-
poned.
Sir C. WOOD said the first point raised by the hon.
member was, did he feel confident that the Court of Direc-
tors and the proprietors of East India stock would consent
to remain trustees for the government of India if the bill
passed in its present shape. He had not the slightest rea-
son to think they would not. With regard to the second
question, ho conies:sea he did not quite understand his lion.
friend when he said he wished the clause to be reconsidered
in order that it might be brought for Ward in a more rea-
sonable shape, unless ho meant that all the existing sta-
tutes with reference to India should bo repealed and' re-
enacted. (Hear, hoar.) That certainly was' intelligible,
but that was a totally different thing from postponing the
clause with a view of bringing it forward in a more satis-
factory shape. He did not mean to say that consolidating
all the acts would not be a desirable course, but it would
be a gigantic task to consolidate all the acts relating to
India, and if they wore to attempt to do it there would be
no prospect of accomplishing it this season.
Mr. BRIGHT said the right hon. gentleman had just
given the sort of answer he expected. He said it would
be a gigantic undertaking. Well he (Mr. Bright) thought
this bill snowed that with regard to India, the right hon.
gentleman was not competent to undertake anything of a
gigantic character. But if it were a gigantic labour to
consolidate these laws, it mast be a matter almost of im-
possibility for individuals to find out what the law was
with regard to India. The argument the right hon. gen-
tleman used was just the strongest possible argument for.
consolidation. The learned member for the University of
Dublin had undertaken a measure of this nature with re-
gard to the laws affecting landlord and tenant in Ireland,
and, when he was Attorney-General, consolidated 200 acts
of Parliament, and put them all into one bill. (Hear,
hear.) He put them before a committee; the bill was
passing through the house, and he believed all connected
with Ireland would admit that the result of that labour
would be a vast benefit to Ireland. Then Sir Robert Peel
on one occasion consolidated acts connected with tho cri-
minal law amounting to about 100 ;-and not long ago the
Chairman of Inland Revenue proposed to consolidate the
law with respect to the soap duties, which comprised 30
acts of Parliament. Surely if in these matters consolida-
tion was desirable, it •was more desirable when interests of
such magnitude were at stake. He thought the right hon.
gentleman had made a.most flimsy excuse for not having
done what it was his duty to do.
Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE said it was scarcely credible
that they were legislating for 100 millions of people in such
a way. The right hon. gentleman said it was a Herculean
task to consolidate the acts. If ho was not prepared to
undertake that Herculean task they ought not to legislate
at all.
Mr. HUME said it would have been more honourable
iii the Government if they had taken time to bring forward
a bill suitable to the importance of the object, and more
especially seeing that it was not a temporary bill, but a
bill that was to continuo for an indefinite time. He con-
sidered that the two, points submitted by the honourable
member for Newcastle were unanswered and unanswerable.
The principle was introduced into that house 20 years ago,
that when a bill effected other acts, they should be re-
pealed and re-enacted. Three committees had laid that
down with respect to private bills. Ho did not wish to
destroy the East India Company ; he wished to see a good
law enacted, by which the company could carry on the
government of that country ; and he thought the Govern-
ment would have acted wisely in bringing in a continuance
bill for one or two years, to enable them afterwards to
bring in a proper bill, and worthy of the object they had
in view. Ho ventured to say there was never an instance
of a bill being brought forward which was so crude as this.
He did not believe that in the pettiest, paltriest parish
vestry in the country, the village Solons would have acted
like the Government in the present instance. They would
never have attempted to come to a decision until the com-
mittee they had appointed to inquire into the subject had
made their report. Parliament had not yet heard the na-
tives, and surely the least they could do, if they made up
their minds to hang a 'man; was to hoar him first. (A.
laugh.) Before they legislated they ought to have dis-
Covered first whence the abuses had arisen ; for abuses, no
doubt there had been. The revenues of India had been
wasted in wars which had been entered into without the con-
currence of the company. The Affglian war, which had cost
15,000,0001., had had very little to do with India. After
the euloginin the right lion. baronet had passed upon tho
Court of Directors, why should he destroy it, at least un-
til the termination of the period to which the present bar-
gain between the Government and the company extended
—namely, the year 1874 ? No doubt the present institu-
tions of India wanted mending, but the present measure
only disturbed and unsettled everything, without making
any material improvement. On these grounds he should
join in the protest of the hon. gentleman against the un-
statesmanlike character of the bill. (Hear, hear.)
Tho SPEAKER then left the chair.
On clause 1,
Mr. PHINN moved to leave out the words " until Par-
liament shall otherwise prove," in the first lino ; and in
the third lino, after the word "shall," to insert " be go-
verned by and in the name of her Majesty, her heirs and
successors." The house had affirmed, by a largo majority,
two propositions—first, that it was desirable to legislate
(luring the present session; and secondly, that the East
India Company should bo retained as an instrument for
managing that country. It still remained, however, for
the house to decide on the extent and the manner in which
the influence of the Crown should be exercised. Tho prin-
ciple of his amendment had been supported by Mr. Fox,
Lord Grenville, and other great statesmen ; and if it was a
matter of some importance in those days, when tho different
India bills were mere leases from the Crown to the com-
pany, it became still more so at the present time, when Par-
liament was proposing to legislate permanently, and for an
uncertain period. (Hear, hear.) As for the words " till
Parliament shall otherwise provide," they wore a mere
pleonasm ; for of course Parliament would always retain
the power of altering any arrangements they might now
choose to make. The hon. baronet the member for Roches-
ter (Sir T. Maddock), the hon. member for the West Rid-
ing, and another right hon. member, who had been Presi-
dent of the Board of Control, had all argued in favour of
asserting the authority of the Crown ; but the right hon.
baronet (Sir C. Wood) did not in his able reply, at all ad-
vert to the subject. It had therefore appeared to him
(Mr. Phinn) desirable that the specific question should be
submitted to Parliament whether the Government of
'riche should or should not be carried on by what had boon
designated by mere than ono of the witnesses as a sham ?
On the whole, then, he (Mr. Phinn) thought the time had.
come when Parliament ought to pronounce a distinct
opinion upon the question, and with that view ho bogged
to move the amendments. (Hear.)
Mr. LOWE objected to the first amendment, on the
ground that it would afford a plea to the noble lord (Vis-
count Jocelyn), who had a motion on the paper, for limit-
ing the duration of the bill. The reason for limiting for-
mer acts arose from the company having been then a com-
mercial body ; and, therefore, all those acts were in the
nature of contracts ; but as that state of things had ceased
the necessity for limitation had also passeeaway. The
effect of the old system was to make people sleep till the
time for the renewal of the charter approached, and then
overy species of complaint suddenly came to light. He
(Mr. Lowe) thought it was high time that such a system
should come to an end ; and that the plan of lotting the
wheat and tare grow up together till the harvest, had
bettor not be applied to our Indian Government. On the
contrary, they had better always keep their field as well
weeded as possible. If a man had any bodily ailments ho
did not think of lotting thorn increase and become more
complicated in order that he might have them eradicated
by some scionl ific treatment at once ; but he endeavoured,
to have each case cured as soon as it manifested its pre-
sence. What, therefore, was good for tho human body
was equally desirable for the body politic. • Ho (Mr.Lowo)
did not see how anything liko a healthy public opinion
with regard to India could over be created unless India
was understood to be always a subject upon which the Im-
perial Parliament could legislate. (Hear, hear.) He was
quite aware that the words proposed to be struck out were
mere surplusage ; but he nevertheless desired to retain
them in order that the Indian people might bo assured
that though their rulers dwelt in a distant land, the Im-
y evils
gcoovnesinldemreanie
ofcoirta-
Lecrti aalLegislature wmaisghatlo weal% reiandytht:
Indian possessions. (Hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY supported the amendment, and con-
tended that, if it wore carried, it would not do away with
the double goverment. It proposed no alteration in the
form of the home government, and could not, therefore,
be said to interfere with the double government. Of all
the witnesses who had been examined not one had said
that the change proposed would be injurious. This was,
to a great extent, a question of names ; but, so far as the
native princes, and all classes in India, were concerned,
the alteration would be a most favourable ono.
After a few words from Sir C. WOOD, on a point of'
order,

PIIINN said he was willing to take any course
which would disembarrass tho discussion.
After a conversation the amendment was withdrawn.
Lord JOCELYN then moved an amendment, of which
he had given notice, to continuo the act till the 30th April,
1864. It appeared to him that it was the duty of the
committee to take such a course that tho subject should
necessarily come before Parliament again at the end of a
certain period ; and it was important, when this took
place that it should not be brought forward as a party
question. Ton years, he thought, was a period which
would allow the experiment to be fairly tried. If the
measure were found not to promote the interests of the
people of India it would then be for Parliament to legis-
late in another direction. Whatever measure wore passed
ought to have a fair trial, and the period of ton years was
not too short for this. It had been objected that bills re-
lating to colonial government were not passed fora limited
period ; but the cases were not at all parallel. It had also
been said that by fixing a period for the duration of this
act, it would cripple Parliament in reference to any al.
terations or modifications that might be required earlier.
Ho did not think it would. have that effect at all, If ho
believed that any member of Parliament had power to
bring forward the question whenever it might be necessary,
with any chance of being heard, he should have refrained
from proposing this'amendment.
Mr. M. MILNES opposed the amendment. He believed
that the governmentabo.at bo established would be a
good government, and.. that the affairs of that country
unnentlrceelsystrYp
would bo well administered.
open, to
tofixbea(nzarteriwodith.
ReMrw.oultypeavetthhoeugmhattteitr
by Parliament at any time.
Mr. BLACKETT supported the dm
amen ent.
After a
tho amendment few w,
from Sir
Mr. RICH said the bill was a more experiment, and they
the subject being again brought before
m
Parliament. He should o t certainly
ment as ensuring support the amend-
ment g the question again coming before Parlia.

Mr. V. SMITH said the inevitable result of the amend-
ment would be to bar all discussion until the end of tho 10
years. This had been to a great extent the case whon the
charter was renewed for 20 years. When ho was Secretary
of the Board of Control they had the greatest difficulty in
procuring an attendance in the house to discuss any Indian
question. All who had voted for the second reading of
this bill had thereby expressed their approval of the form
of goverment proposed ; and if they thought the govern-
_lll,9o & good one, they could not consistently support the