The Sun.
London, England, 1838-03-17 00:00:00

PERSIA.

_ ---•
Mr. MILES begged to ask— the Noble Lord a question
with regard to the state of our relations with Persia.
It was rumoured, in fact it had been stated broadly,
that we were now in open enmity with that State, and that in
fact we had no resident at the Court of Persia. Ho believed
the rumours arose from the fact of the Shah of Persia having
commenced hostilities against Herat, contrary to the
advice of the Government of this country. It was important
that the question should be answered, in order to allay the
feeling which existed on the subject in the minds of those con-
nected with that country.
Lord PALMERSTON trusted that the rumours were
premature, and, in fact, they were unfounded. He would
not say unfounded, as the circumstances which he would
detail to the House gave some colour to the Report.
Some time ago an expedition was mad.: to a ' lac( to the east-
ward of Persia, to which Persia lays certain claims, on which
he expresses no opinion.—(Hear, hear.) The English of.

ficers in the Persian service did not accompany the Shah
on that occasion except one, who did not act in any military
ecpacity. When the Shah was near the frontier of
Herat, a messenger, belonging to the English mis-
sion in Persia, was despatched' by Mr. Macneil with
letters, and was returning to Teheran, when he
was stopped by persons forming part of the military expedi-
tion. He was treated with great violence, carried to the
Shah's camp, deprived of letters of which be was the bearer,
treated not only with indignity, but with groat cruelty, and in
spite of the remonstrances made by Col. Stoddart, that person
was detained, and was after considorable suffering allowed to
re.ume, his journey to Teheran. For that violation of nivional
right Mr. Macniel felt it is duty immediately to demand
ample and full satisfaction and reparation, and he had
informed her Majesty's Government, that if that repa-
ration should be denied, he should feel it to be his
duty to break off his diplomatic relation in Persia, and,
according to the circumstances of the case, to remain un-
officially there, or retire altogether from the Persian into the
Turkish territory. He ( Lord P.) had received two days ago
despatches from Mr. M'Niel, in which he said he had not at
that time received any answer to the demand that he had made
for reparation. He hoped the Shah, on consideration, would
be sensible of the gross tyranny of the proceeding that took
place with regard to the messenger, and that the satisfaction
demanded would not be refused ; but if it was refused, it would
not be consistent with the honour of the country, that the steps
proposed to be taken by Mr. M‘Niel were not allowed.
OCCUPATION OF CRACOW.

Sir S. CANNING then rose to put a question to
the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affrirs,
relative to the occupation of Cracow, but from the
very low tone in which the Honourable Member
spoke we were unable to hear the first few sentences.
The only object which he had in putting the question was:to
ascertain whether the Noble Lord (Palmerston) had had any
correspondence on the snbject, and if so, whether there was
any objection to its production ?
Lord PALMERSTON said that he bad had com-
munications with Austria en the subject to which
the Right Honourable Baronet had referred ; and
it bad been more than once declared on the part of the Aus.
trian Government, that the occupation of Cracow, was in.
tended to be only temporary, and would cease as soon as the
militia, as we understood, was properly organized.
CARLOW COUNTY- COMMITTEE.

Mr. WILBRAHANI said he had received a letter from
Lord Robert Grosvenor on the subject of that Noble Lord's
illness, which had given rise to some conversation, and the
examination of a witness at the bar or the House last night.
The Noble Lord expressed regret that any professional de-
licacy should have induced the witness to consider secrecy ne-
cessary as to the nature of his complaiut.-4 Hear.) He
(Lord R. Grosvenor) was suffering from an internal attack,
which for the present entirely disabled him from attending to
Parliamentary duty, and which, if neglected might be attended
with dangerous consequences.—(Hear. )
EXECUTION OF ROCHE AND WILLIAMS AT

DAY, MARCH 17, [B3B.

willing to listen to a dry legal argument. It was well
known that there were different Acts for England, Scot-
land and Ireland, and the Noble Lord had non found out
that since 1833 both sides of the I-11.15,, had been under a
mistake, that the resolution was authorized by the terms of the
Irish Reform Act. The Noble Lord could not be serious in
stating teat his object was to continue the resolution as
regarded Scotland, if he meant, to do away with it
as regarded lrelancl.—( Hear, hear.) The English Act
provided that the Committees of that House had the
power to open the registries. That was done because a new
system cf registry had then been introduced into Eng-
lar.d. The Scotch Act proceeded upon totally different
grounds, because it assumed that the power was already with
the House to open the registries.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
The Act assumed that the Committees of the House had the
power of revising the Registry, and expressly stated that
nothing contained in the Act should be taker, to limit
or restrict the power of the Committee. The Irish Act
differed in terms, although not in eff -et, from the Scotch
and English Acts on this subject.—(Hear, hear.) Bet
.no Act of Perliament, either on the subject of the
registration, or of tile rights and -qualification of electors,
welled, anything to interfere with the power of the Hemee,
over the registration. The Reform Act reunited the provisions
of the Act 10 Geo. IV. with regard to the certificate of registry.
It was very important that this should be clearly understood,
that if a man was once put upon the register in
Ireland, there he remained fur years, unless struck
off by a Committee of this House. Was it then to be esta-
blished 35 a principle, that if a man was struck off the
register under the provisions of the Grenville Act, he might
be placed upon it in three months after on the very same
qualification ? There was this additional circumstance to be
considered, that the Assistant-Barrister in Ireland had the
right of placing whom he pleased on the register. He would
propose to the Noble Lord to adjourn this debate to a distant
day, and let it be understood that in the mean time the former
resolution might remain in abeyance. If, however, the Noble
Lord persisted in his motion, he should feel it his duty to vote
against it. He would remark that the opinion now enter-
tained by the Noble Lord on this question appeared to be dif-
ferent from that which he expressed in 1835. He should con-
clude by moving, as an amendment, that the debate be ad-
journed till this day two months.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, with regard to the
adjournment proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, he
begged to observe that it did not admit of a doubt that the
resolution of 1835 was binding on the House, and was binding
also upon the Right Hon. Gentleman in the Chair; how
then was he, as Speaker of the House, to know what to do
during the two Months whilst, according to the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman opposite, the question was to be in
abeyance ? But suppose, on the other hand, the Select
Committee having reported to the House that certain
persona ought or ought not to be on the register, that the
Speaker, as he was bound to de, sent his warrant to the re-
turning officer to strike names off from, or add names to, the
register—he would say that his warrant would be mere waste
paper. It was beyond the power of the House to authorize the
Speaker to issue such a warrant, and doing so was in fact an
attempt of the House, by a mere resolution to set aside the
provision of an act of Parliament passed by the three estates
of the land. By the Irish Act of Parliament a voter, after he
had been registered, obtained his certificate, and the posses-
sion of that certificate was prima facie evidence of his right to
vote. But if, notwithstanding his possession of the certificate,
he, by the issue of the Speaker's warrant, was not allowed to
vote, he was disfranchised; thus, by the resolution of the
House, they sought to deprive the voter of the privilege con-
ferred on him by the Legislature. Unless the House had
the power conferred on it by Act of Parliament no such
power existed. The Right Honourable Gentleman said cor-
rectly that the Grenville Act gave the power with respect
to Scotland and England ; and if the Irish Union Act ex-
tended it to Ireland, his arguments were well-founded ; but
he ( Sir J. Campbell) contended that it did not. The reso-
_
SLAVE COMPENSATION. lution gave no opinion as to the question at issue; and though
Lord STANLEY begged to call the attention of the Right the opinions given by the Right Hon. Gentleman, when he:
Hon. Gentleman ( Sir G. Grey) to the subject of a petition had heard both sides—( Hear, hear)—would be entitled to
which he ( Lord Staaley) had received from Cumana, and great weight, this was not a ease similar to those which he
which was also signed by 120 inhabitants of Jamaica. determined when for a time he was Lord Chancellor of Ire
The petition as from British born subjects, who, in wires- land, for they were argued before they were determined,—.
queece of the hurricane that had taken place in Jamaica, had ( Cheers.) It would have been well if the Right Hon. Gen-,
sustained very great losses, and upon that ground they came tieman had borne in mind that he might, in a judicial caps-
before Parliament and her Majesty in Council for relief, city, be called on to determine this very question, his opinion!
The Noble Lord concluded by saying that he would put him- upon which he had expressed so decidedly. He agreed with
self in order, by moving that an Address be agreed upon to her the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the House had authority,
Majesty for a copy of the Address presented to the Crown where not declared by Act of Parliament, to determine any
by the inhabitants of Cumana, praying for compensation. matter connected with the election of Members of Parlia-
Sir GEORGE GREY said that the statement of the merit: that right was supreme; but the House had ro right
Noble Lord was substantially, if not perfectly correct. to disfranchise any elector in fiquro. Such a right nevcr was
The case had been brought under the notice of the thought of till 1833 ; and that resolution was founded entirely
Noble Lord when he was at the head of the Colonial on the Reform Bill. The English Reform Bill gave the
department, by a memorial which had been presented to Lord power to correct the Registry; that power was given
Mulgraye. the Governor of Jamaica, and had been transmit- by the House of Commons, to be carried into effect by
ted to the Government. Lord Aberdeen, when he earns the Speaker's warrant. The Scotch Act was not so
into office, referred the question to the Law Officers of clear, but still his opinion was that it gave the power,
the Crown, who gave it as their unqualified opinion, that because it said the Register might be corrected. But the
under the circumstances, all the slaves in the island were Irish Reform Bill was entirely silent on the subject. It had
unconditionally free, and his Lordship directed Lord Sligo, been said that any one who was disfranchised might go and
who was then Governor of Jamaica, to act on that opinion. get himself registered de novo, hut for six months after he was
The conduct both of the freed slaves, and the white population, disfranchise,' he had no right to vote. If there was no power,
was deserving of all approbation, though there was no apprer.- by Act of Parliament to remove names from the register,
ticeship established. The Hon. Bar, net proceeded to mention there was none in common law. But let them contemplate
the case of nn island under similar circumstances. which this mischief that would arise if this resolution were delayed.
it was proposed should send one Representative to the Jamaica Thu Speaker's warrant had been already treated as waste
Assembly, and be incorporated with that island ; but the paper in the case of Cork. The assistant barrister, a gentle-
Janiaica Assembly had objected to this, and it was not carried man of great eminence at the Irish Bar, said it was beyond:
into effect; nor had the smaller island lost much by this.— the power of the House to issue such a warrant, and Ina!
Hear, hear.) In conclusion the Hon. Baronet said he had treated it with utter contempt, settling the register as if
no objection to the production of the papers. had not existed.
BISHOP OF QUEBEC_ Mr. O'CO NNE L Is—He restored names.
Sir R. Re PEEL said, that it was probably in the recollection The A TTORNE Y.G ENE Et AL continued—Yes, names
of the House that he had presented a petition the other day had been struck out under the authority of the Speaker's
from Lower Canada, with respect to the Bishop of Quebec, warrant, and he restored them. Now, what had the House
which he had withdrawn on a suggestion that it was not done to vindicate its power? The assistant barrister bad
in conformity with the rules of the House. He did not wish triumphed over them, and why ? Because he was supported,
to provoke a discussion on the subject, but he believed that by the law. The House was not confirmed by the common,
her Majesty's Government had intimated their intention of in- law; it was by the English Reform Bill ; he believed it
creasing the salary of the Bishop.--( Hear.) There I O,IS by the Scotch Reform Bill ; but clearly it was not by
were two grounds of objection to the reception of this the Irish Reform Bill. The would they allow a resolution
it was not a petition, to remain on their books that extended th'e power to Ireland,
petition. In the first place,
but was styled a memorial; but as this had probably occurred though the law did not?
through ignorance of the forms of the house, and as the Mr. O'CONNEL L considered this a very necessary inter-
prayer of the petition was couched in the most respectful Terence on time part of the Right Hon. Gentleman, when be
terms, he apprehended that the House would not refuse to re- bore in mind that the Election Committees were now sitting.
ceive it on teat ground. The only question then was, whether (Hear, hear.) He begged to ask, was there the slightest
as this petition prayed for a grant of money, the House could re- pretext assigned for at all touching the -question of the open-
ceive it, but as he had before stated, the Government had declared ing of the register? He had drawn it in head and shoulders—
their intention of augmenting the salary of the Bishop he ap- he would not say for any improper purpose—but it so acci-
prehended there would be no objection in point of form to its dently happened that the declaration of his opinion might in-
reception. fluence the judgment of persons who were sworn to try im-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER entered partially. In the case of the Cork election 700 freemen re-
into an explanation across the table, which was not heard in siding more than seven miles from the city claimed before the
the gallery. We understood, eventually, that the petition was assistant-barrister, by whom their claim was rejected. They
withdrawn. appealed to the judge of assize, Baron Pennefather, who said
Mr. PACKINGTON was about to address the House they were entitled to he registered. It was alleged that there
upon the subject, but was interupted by cries of " Order," was no atiblavit, and he formed one, and gave them a certifi-
" Withdrawn." elate. They turned the election, and the two gentlemen who
The SPEAKER said the petition having been withdrawn, were defeated, Dr. Baldwin and Mr. Callaghan, petitioned
any Hon Member was out of order in addressing the House the House The Committee determined that there was no
upon it. valid affidavit and no valid certificate, and they directed the
Mr. PA CKINGTON would give a notice on the sub- votes to be struck off. Tile consequence was that the
leet He begged to express his satisfaction—( Cries order of the Speaker was taken to the clerk of the peace
of. " No—no notice.") He would confine himself then to of the county of Cork, and he struck off the votes. Mr.
giving a notice. When the Colonial Estimates were before Markley, a King's Barrister, the brother-in-law of the Attor-
the House he would take that opportunity of bringing the me- ney-General, Mr. Blackburne, deliberately directed the clerk
morial under the notice of Hon. Members. of the peace to restore the names ; they were restored and
PUBLIC WALKS. they voted at the last election to the number of 263. Mr.
Mr. SL A NEY said that upon a former occasion the Callaghan thus appealed to the House, and from the House
Select Committee upon Public Walks had reported strongly tO Mr. Markley. WAS not he guilty of a breach of privilege,
in favour of the promenade at Somerset House being thrown and ought he not to have been reprimanded ?--( A laugh.)
open under, certain restrictions. In consequence of that re- But he was not—he escaped with perfect impunity. In Ire-
port the Nhle Lord, then at the bead of the Woods and iind there was no roll of registry at all. There a man was en-
Forests, stated that the recommendations would becarried into titled to vote on his certificate or affidavit ; no roll was aPe
effect. Upon enquiry he found that the spa'ce in front of peeled to. If a man had not his certificate he resorted to an
Somerset House had not been open ; he begged, therefore, affidavit, and that was considered satisfactory. Now, suppose
to ask whether he had been rightly informed, or whether the they ordered the clerk of the peace to strike a name off the
recommendation had been, or was to be, carried into effect ? register, that did not affect the certificate, and the voter might
Mr. C. WOOD believed that the recommendation had been go to the sheriff and say, " Here is the Act which declares the
carried into effect, and he was aware of no objection to the ad- certificate shall be conclusive, notwithstanding the order of the
mission of the public under certain restrictions, except that House." If the certificate of the party were lost, he acted on
some repairs were then in operation. his affidavit which continued in force for eight) ears. In Ire-
Lord INGE STRIE begged to ask the Noble Secretary land there was ;no necessity of opposing a claim to vote; a
for Foreign Affairs, whether the order in Council was atill in man could not be registered in that country till he had
force which directed Captains of British cruisers to intercept proved his case in every respect, and obtained a judicial deci.
all stores which were being carried to Don Carlos. awn in his favour. The investigation was a rigid one ;he was
Lord PALMERSTON.—Yes it is. obliged to produce his title deeds, to show that the stamp was a
AMENDED REGISTER. proper one—a sworn magistrate, an assistant-barrister, a gen-
Lord JOHN RUSSELL begged to call the attention of tleman of talent and experience, decided on it. No case in
the House to a resolution which was passed after the Reform Ireland went by mere default. The assistant-barrister de-
Bill had become the law, with respect to striking names from tided, and having decided drew up his judgment, which
the register by Committees of the House. It was an erroneous could not be impugned in point of form hereafter, for the
resolution, and in 1835 he had proposed to amend it. Since words of the Act were express as to that. Many a register
that period the working of it had clearly shown that was opened five years after it was closed, and if when it was
that amendment was now absolutely required._-_( Hear.) said to a man, " You did not pay your taxes," how was he
He conceived that the resolution bad been passed entirely to prove that he did ? No one could ; and yet if he did not
upon the Reform Act : he did not believe that prior to show that he had paid them he was disfranchised. All, there-
that Act it would be proper to declare persons who fore, that the opposing party had to do was to bring the as-
had been been found by a Committee incompetent to vote, sesement books and prove that the tax was made, and then
wasCommitteeouchmattersmighttreathadrespectgiven,and th
any proviwon of the kind. He thought that the law remained been treated. It was a mere abuse of terms to talk of the
with respect to the Irish Register in the same state as it was register in Ireland. In England there did exist a list of
before the Reform Act passed.—(Cheers.) He thought voters ; here there was neither certificate nor affidavit, but
House there was a roll, and all the voter bad to do was to swear to
to correct the register. He believed that it had been always was
matter,
ettweraT in which a favouring
way
in which
vi
his identity with the person whose name was enrolled. They
held that the House bad not the power to alter the could not touch the affidavit ; they could not touch the certi-
register, but the error haring been discovered, bethought that
that it would not be proper on the part of the -
ficate ; and if they could not do this, it was idle for them to
it would only be proper that the resolution should be corrected. issue their orders.
He should, therefore, without saying anything more on the Bier. WYNN wished to know if the Noble Lord would
subject, move the resolution of the 23d June, 1533. have any objection to postpone his resolutions until the present
Sir E. iUGDEN very much deprecated discussion on this election petitions were disposed of, with a view to an iAct of
subject, because it had a tendency to operate on the minds of Parliament being hereafter passed?
gentlemen who were now sitting on Election Committees, Lord JOHN RUSSELL saw very great objection to the
or who might hereafter sit on _Election Committees, postponement of his motion for two months, as proposed
where the question arose as to the right of the Corn- by the Right Hon. and Learned Member for Ripon. Under
mittee to open the registry.—( Hear, hear.) He had such circumstances the Speaker would feel very great he-
particularly avoided, up to the time of the resolution of the sitation in acting on the resolution, while there was a mo-
Noble Lord which required him to consider it, looking into tion before the House for its suspension, and a debate had
the question as to the right of a Committee to open the re- taken place. Another course proposed was, that the reso-
gistry, and he did it for this plain and simple reason, because ho lution should be suspended for two months, and not acted
knew he should be constantly asked by his friends, what his upon. If lie could think that his resolution would have
opinion on it was, and he did not choose that his opinion should any effect on the proceedings of these Committees, he would
have any weight; but the Noble Lord had forced it on him.-- be most willing to embrace the course proposed, because
(Cries or " No, no," from the Ministerial, met by loud he did not wish that it should have any such effect.
cries of " Hear, hear" from the Opposition benches.) He must But then there was another difficulty. The resolution
be allowed to judge for himself on that point. Hie opinion affected Ehgland and' Scotland as well was Ireland. With
was, that to come to a right conclusion on this subject, they l regard to Scotland, at least, there was much doubt. His
were forced to the question, whether a Committee could ! Honourable and Learned Friend the Attornev-General was
open the Registry or not, and he was of opinion that of opinion that the House had the power of correcting the
a Committee could open the Rewistry.---(Hear, hear, hear.) register of Scotland. With respect to England there was
The House was so constituted' that it was always un- no doubt whatever. If, then, the resolution were sus-

pcnded, and in the meantime a Report of any Election Corn.
mitten were presented, recommending an altera.tion of the re-
gister in any place in England and Wales where the election
was declared void, then the Speaker would be unable to take
any step to correct that defcctiv. register. Thus very serious
evils might ensue. If this difficulty could be obviated, he
would at once assent to the proposition Of the Right Hon.
Gentleman.
After a few words from Mr. WYNN, the ATTORNEY-GENE-
RAL, and Lord JOHN RUSSELL, the amendment and resolution
were then withdrawn.