The Sun.
London, England, 1838-02-09 00:00:00

ifwho held free-
which returns of this description could immediately be oh- year, Wv.,7 just as well able airy
tained, and it happened that the return now moved for by the hold property to the amount tocatitTail
Hon. Gentleman opposite was to be found very easily in Mr. Sir R. H. DIG us doubted a,hetlier' any professional in-
Porter's tables up to within a short time of the date named in come ought to be considered asufficientincome. His own
his motion. The return, however, in its terms, could riot be opinion was in favour of freeholdproperty.tat h
it did n
had at all, for the Hon. Member called for a return of the Lord J. RUSSELL considered appear to
r nomr
aeln
it ~ but
as asub'ect of
duties collected in Ireland, there being in fact no duty on be a matter which particularlyrdelahteedHooso to the Government, app
bricks in Ireland. It was besides impossible to give a return one which concedrne t
'called upon as tEecuotha,,yegainsd-
of the cost of collecting the duties ; for it frequently hap- lation. Onesi e
it was not, in his mind,
pened that the same person who was employed in collecting as a matter of legislation. one so very
As to any very great practical advantage
was
as
mu c h
the duties on bricks was immediately afterwards engaged in high importance.
the alteration of the be did
the collection of taxes on hops or other taxable articles. He to be derived from
of
th,,qualification,,
had no objection to the returns t . these rticulars.— not conceive, from the. opinion a
.House, that it was a
excep in pa
matter of particular importance. He did not find, although
The return was then ordered.
CANADA. there was a different qualification in Scotland and this country,
less efficient were returned ; nor even did he find
Mr. HUME moved for " The Return of the titles of the that persons . . .
that, although the Universities returned Members without free-
Acts of the Legislature of Upper Canada, passed since the
they were less fit or ualified Lau hter
hold qualifications, q
._....( g . )
arric al of the Governor, Sir F. B. Head, in that province,
Everybody admitted that a rich banker, without one acre of
which, by the Act 31st George 111 c. 31, s. 42, ought to be
land—he had never heard anybody say to the contrary—was as
laid before the British Parliament, 111.,
to the sanction of
essentially suited to be a Member of Parliament as airy person
the Crown being given to them • stating when the said Acts
who now held a seat. All the good that he could see. in any
were passed in Upper Canada and the dates when laid be-
' re- alteration in the present law was to render the qnalification
fore the House of Commons, and the dates when they
more agreeable to the fact.—( Hear.) It was notorious
ceived the sanction of the Crown ; copy of the Act of Legis-
there were some Members of the House held fictitious
lature'of Upper Canada to establishaCourt of Chancery in
that province, with powers to
qualifications, and it created a species of loose dealing,
stating when Sir F. B. Head dispose of waste lands, Sc.,
and a necessity for obligations and declarations, which
aye the sanction of the Crown
would be as we'l avoided. He did not know whether it would
to that Act, and whether that sanction has been confirmed by
return of the establishment of the
the Crown, and when
be extended to property in the funds, to leasehold and other
;
Court of Chancery, lately established in Upper Canada, stat- property, but he could say that the principal object should be
ing
to take care that proper definitions should be given as to what
Francis Head to that Court the names of the Judg es and officers a
and the salaries ppand allowancesointed b Sir
possessions or what income should constitute a qualification.
,
the difficulty was to define. During the last war there
was
granted to each." In the absence of the Colonial Secretary, '
he would abstain from the observations he intended to make. an income tax, which, if good for taxation, might, perhaps, be
also good for qualification, but the difficulty was to define that.
He would, therefore, merely state his wish to correct and omit
They all agreed (so we understood the Noble Lord) to make
the words in the second -" with powers to dispose
paragraph,
of waste lands " &c.—Agreed to. the subject of the qualification one for the consideration of a
,
Select Committee.
Mr. HUME then moved for " Copies of the Acts of Par- liament of Lower Canada, passed since 1828, fur the promo- After an explanation from Mr. HAWKES and Sir E.
tion of education, and the establishment of schools in that SUGDEN,
province, together with a copy of the last report made to the Sir R. PEEL said there was one objection, which was the
[louse of Assembly of the state of education, and of the num- declaration that a person should be " duly qualified to sit and
ben
he House of Commons, and he supposed the case of a
or schools and scholars in each county, and the numbers in cote in t
the
whole province." The Hon. Member then read a state- man with 1001. per annum, who a year back had a current in-
tent from " M‘Gregor's History of Canada in 1833," in con- come of 3001. per annum—would he be in a condition immc-
travention of that of the Hon. Member for Coventry, who had diately to declare that he was in that condition at the time of
asserted that there were not more than two men in a hundred his declaration ? He must say that the present qualification
in the province who could read or write. M'Gregor asserted was unnecessary, unless landed property was the proof of the
that education had very much increased there within the pre- possession of the property, whereas it was perfectly notorious,
vious six years, and computed the schools then existing at 1,200, and could not be concealed, that such was not the case. It might
chiefly upheld by a legislative provision, and the scholars at be remedied, but the present system was a reliance on the re-
-65,000. The House of Assembly had allotted 50,0001. to spectability of an individual, and a confidence in his honour and
further these objects; but the Legislative Assembly refused to integrity. That the present system in that respect was looked
sanction the grant, so the plan was still in abeyance. upon as a certificate of the honour and integrity of the partveould
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Hon. Member's state- not be denied. He saw no advantage in arguing the question
merits did not all disprove the facts asserted by the Hon. Mem- at all ; but he did say that, for security, a certain definite in-
ber for Coventry, that the inhabitants of Lower Canada were, come, consisting of bona fide property, might be desirable.
generally speaking, a very ignorant population. It had been He objected, however, to chattel property, or such sort of pro-
stated that they had been much enlightened since 1828; but party as the stallion to which his Gallant Friend had alluded.
the fact was that those schools did not admit boys above the (Laughter.) He objected to the present proposed mode, be-
age of nine years, so that the existence of schools and scholars cause funded property might then appear to exist by transfer ;
did not overthrow the fact that the House of Assembly was and if any alteration were to take place in the law, or whether
chosen by an ignorant constituency. the proposition of his Hon. Friend were adopted or not, he
Sir R. PEEL reminded the Noble Lord that the nine should wish to make the measure as liberal as possible; but,
years which had occurred since 1829, added to the other nine at the same time, having determined as to what that should be,
years attained by the pupils at entrance, might, if fairly rec- he should wish the definition to be abided by.
koned, cause some alterations in the results.—(Laughter.) Mr. GOULBURN thought that the object was to
Mr. HUME said that the ignorance of the inhabitants of have an equivalent to a landed qualification, which, as the law
Lower Canada was altogether matter of assertion, and, evert existed, did not on all occasions necessarily qualify. He ( Mr.
if true, did not prove that they deserved to lose their Consti- Goulburn) thought the Bill should be altogether withdrawn,
tution.—( Hear.) There were seventy-eight overseers in as it was evidently for a different purpose than it purported to
De, onshire who could neither read nor write.—( Laughter. ) be by the title.
The question was then put, and the motion was agreed to. Mr. WARBURTON had no objection to the Chairman
On the motion of Mr. FA ZA KERLY, power was given to reporting progress. He was glad the Right Hon. Baronet the
the Poor Law Committee to report the minutes of evidence Member for Tamworth and the Hon. and Learned Member
from time to time. for Aylesbury agreed with the general principle of the Bill.
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, a Select Committee Mr. BERNAL suggested that a clear income of 3001. a
was appointed to consider the payment of rates to which occu- year from any real or personal estate should be the qualifica-
piers of small tenements were now liable by law. tion required in the clause.
VOTES OF THE HOUSE. Sir Rs PEEL explained. He was ready to add a qualifi-
Mr. HUME moved that every motion in a Committee of cation derived from personal and landed property ; but he by
the whole House on which a division takes place be recorded, no means agreed that the qualification for counties should be
and reported in the votes of the day, and the names and votes the same as that for boroughs. Neither did he wish to commit
of Members recorded in the same manner as in a division of himself as to the amount. His meaning was that the
IT -
the House. qua llcation should be the clear income declared to, and he could
After a short discussion the motion was withdrawn, the mat- not let the Chairman leave the Chair while the lion. Member
ter Leing left in the hands of the Speaker. for Bridport was in any doubt of it. He thought it sufficient
BANKING CO-PARTNERSHIP BILL. that a bona fide declaration •
of property should he made; but.
Co_ he also thought it incumbent on the House to guard against'
The House went into Committee on the Banking
Partnership Bill.a fraudulent declaration, made only to come within the letter.
The different clauses having been agreed to, of the oath.
Mr. COURTENAY proposed a clause to exclnde Life Mr. PRAED also explained. ,
and Fire Insurance Companies from the operation of the Act. After a few words from Sir E. SUGDEN and Colonel
After a few words from Sir W. Follett, Mr. Aglionby, Mr. SIBTHORP,
M. Attwood, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained leave
Sir R. PEEL thought the decision of the Court of Exche_ to sit again.
quer called for the interference of the House. The House then resumed.
Sir E. SUGDEN said the only question was one of time, CANADA.
and no man could doubt that a Select Committee would ulti- Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Canadian Government
mate)), be required. Bill had been sent down from the Lords with one amendment,
Mr. COURTENAY then withdrew the clause, the inner- which was to the effect that all Members of the Legislative
tion of which he had moved. and Executive Councils should take the oath of allegiance
Mr. M. PHILIPS said the decision of the Court of Ex- prescribed by the Act of 1791 before they were eligible to
chequer had been already taken advantage of, and would be discharge the functions of their offices. As he was not aware
acrain • and this alone was sufficient to show that the House that any objection would be offered to this amendment he
hi'd ' A •L 1 • i•• - a acteu rigutly in taxing the steps it had done.—(Hear.) hoped the House would permit it to be read.
Sir R. PEEL re-asserted that the Court had not pro- The amendment was then read, and agreed to.
pounced any judgment, but that there had only been expressed The House then adjourned, at Twelve o'Clock.
a mere intimation of the opinion of the Judges.—(Hear.)
The contrary had been stated by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, who called upon the House to approve of the magna-
nimity of the conduct of the Government in the matter.—
(Hear.) Ile (Sir R. Peel) could, however, see no magnani-
Inity on the part of the Government in the business.
After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
and Mr. ATTwOOO,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, that although
the
judgment of the Court of Exchequer had not been pronounced,
there had been what was to all inteuts and purposes the same
thing._( Hear.)
Mr. PEA SE said this Bill affected all ecclesiastical and
spiritual persons, as well with reference to mining speculations
as to any other.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said a re-
Inedy was equally necessary in mining as in banking affairs.
Mr. MA ULE said the Act was only meant to apply where
the clergyman was, if he might so term it, a naked share-
holier, and not in cases where he was a director. He thought
it was too strong a measure to apply this Bill to pending suits,
and especiully to that out of which it arose.—( Hear, hear.)
Whilst he admitted the necessity of a remedy, he was not pre-
Pared to to go the length of depriving a party of the benefit of
ajudgment by an ex post facto law.—( Hear, hear.)
Mining Companies. He was not disposed to restrict clergy-
'len to the same extent as many Hon. Members seemed to
wish to do.
_ After a few words from Sir E. Sugden, the Solicitor-
kienera , Mr. M. Attwood, and Sir R. Inglis,
The Bill was reported, with amendments, with the under-
standing that it was only committed pro forma.
THE CANADA BILL.
_ Messengers from the House of Lords brought up the
Canada Bill, with an amendment, in which they begged the
concurrence of the House of Commons.—Ordered to be laid
upon the table.

HOUSE OF LORDS, FEB. 8.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack
at Five o'Clock.

ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.
The Marquis of SLIGO presented a petition from Lei-
cester, praying for the complete abolition of Negro Slavery.
The Marquis of CLEVELAND presented a petition
from the inhabitants of Barnard Castle, in the county of
Durham, to the same effect. The petition was so nume-
rously and respectably signed, that he had to request the
Clerk of the House to read it.
MEDICAL QUACKERY.
The Earl of RIPON presented a petition from the
medical practitioners of Ripon, complaining of the state
of the law with respect to persons who were per-
mitted to enter into the practice of medicine, without
having undergone any preparatory education or qualifi-
cation by law for the same ; and praying for some remedy
in that respect.

The Bishop of HEREFORD presented a petition, but
in so low a tone of voice as to be totally inaudible in the
gallery.

The Bishop of SALISBURY presented two petitions
against the Bill for the suppression of the Bishopric of
Sodor and Man.

NEW ZEALAND.
The Earl of RIPON seeing that the Noble Secretary
for the Colonies had just entered the House, wished to
know whether there was any answer to be given to the
question he had put the other night in reference to a
charter for New Zealand ?

Lord GLENELG said, in answer to the question
whether her Majesty's Government was about to grant a
charter to the New Zealand Association, he had to state
that after the Government had a communication with the
different parties acting for the Association, the Go-
vernment was disposed to grant a charter on certain
conditions ; but the Association not having acceded to
those conditions, the intention to grant the charter was at
an end. The Association then enquired whether there
would be any objection on the part of Government
to the introduction of a Bill into Parliament ft.r
the purposes contemplated ; and to that the reply
of the Government was, that under a review of all the cir-
cumstances, they did not feel justified in opposing the intro-
duction of such a Bill, so that the question in that way
might be fairly discussed ; but that they reserved to them-
selves the right to discuss the merits of the Bill a►s it
should seem fit to them when the proper occasion presen-
ted itself.

COAL TRADE.
The Coal Trade (Port of London) Bill was then read a
fond time, and ordered to be referred to a Select Committee.
Mr. LABOUC HERE here moved the name of Mr. Pease
be insert©d in the list of the Committee, in the place of Mr.
Aaron Chapman.—Agreed to.
QUALIFICATION OF MEMBERS.
Mr. WARBURTON moved the Order of the Day for
gain°. into Committee on the Qualification of Members Bill
Si; E. SUG DEN hoped that this Bill had attracted the
attention of her Majesty's Government. It appeared to him
that the subject of the Bill was to give that which was not a
real qualification.—( Hear.) As the law at
present stood
there was no doubt that it was liable to be evadad, but cer-
tainly not without risk and danger. According to the pre-
Setit law a Member must either possess real property entitling
him to a qualification or obtain a qualification. Now, it appeared
to him that the object of the Lion. Member for Bridport was
qualification—(Hear, hear)—and certainly this Bill was so
framed as to lead to such a result. What the House wanted
Was a ready test of qualification—(Licar)—and not the neces-
ity of having recourse to a long trial to discover it. Be had
never seen a Bill more cleverly drawn than the present, or one
gore artfully drawn up in that spirit of philosophy which gave
t_ eye what it denied to the understanding.—(Laughter. )
thi'll°wed a man to say that he believed he was qualified—a
thy lig which it might not be a very difficult matter to make
orlo believe. He hope the Bill would not fail to attract
thta, atteation of her Majesty's Government, and he would take
i,ndeOpPortunity of saying that he was not wedded to a mere
taint Property qualification—( Hear, hear)—although he Ger-
hui, 3' 4' a general rule preferred such a test. He thought,
itltere_vr, that when it was considered what great commercial
were represented in that House some qualification
Letlog fripnipersonal property might be established—( Hear,
pqt)---tlte House at the same time, taking care that the pro-
hi4 was bona fide that of the person claiming under it. The
ca Bon. Gentleman concluded by saying that unless the
Prove',,aTe out of Committee considerably altered and im-
mr'. 1,1!_ should oppose it at a future stage.
RefoWARBURTON stated that upon the discussion of
lieationriTt Bill, Lord Althorp had said that the existing. qua-
4'olv tha,WaS a stringent one. The object of the Bill was to
although a person might not possess the means of
Lis 4p, a responsible qualification, he should be able to take ufhith
shot the table of the House,
and give those assurances
,Nlet,ibnld convince them of his respectability. The Hon.
ItTsiNer for Cornwall (Sir William Moleswor.h) wished last
at° get rid of the qualification altogether ; but from
11°1 then stated from both sides of the House he was led
e gut that there was no objection to the alteration ; and
111i0 as 4:41°11,1,1n1y was whether it- should extend to chattels as
hieatio,
~.211 Property. He admitted that the proposed qua.
it eitt jas Out sufficiently stringent; but he thought the
st unn: Gentleman, at the same time, had characterized
lit,°44nitte Justly, If they would make any modification in
h 5, to answer the purpose he had in view, he should
1151 ILN:PPY to agree in that modification. He could assure
141141,, it h 8 was viv):snot wedded to his own Bill, and that he did
SlD,'' A treated as a party measure. ,
Iv,ta for`tr-,1) wished the Bill -had gone further or stopped
o°,.,eeessarit 'night be even a question whether qualification
'kv()%;'. re4dinY,,a all. When he had given his vote for thein
of ,t 1 ,Oe had certainly understood his vote be
I°lth erle' glai.:,lfiation.
li"ant IMO R P thought that the qualification might
.'ge be troublesome.—(Laughter.) According to
teal %tit
Shout the coutry, making so many hundreds a

The Earl of RIPON was glad that the Government
had taken this course.—(Hear.) He presumed that
whatever Bill was to be brought into Parliament would
be introduced in the character of a private Bill, so as to
go through all the proceedings of a private Bill.
. Lord GLENELG said that he should doubt whether
it would be in the character of a private Bill, but he was
not prepared to say how that would be.
CANADA.
Lord REDESD ALE, seeing the Noble Lord the
Secretary for the Colonies i❑ his place, wished to know how
it happened that so meagre a return had been laid upon
the table of the dispatches that had been received from
Canada requiring more military force in that country.
—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had not
lai upon the table of the House the answer he had
sent to the letter of Sir Colin Campbell requiring more
forces in Canada. If the Noble Lord would not lay on the
table of the House a copy of the answer of the 3d of
August, perhaps he would be good enough to say whether
it contained any reference at all to the Commander of the
Forces.

Lord GLENELG said, the reason that the answer to
which the Noble Lord had referred had not been 'did on
the table of the House was, that the letter from Sir Colin
Campbell and the answer related to a question with respect
to Canada which it was not thought proper to give publicity
With respect to the other part of the Noble
Lord's question, Sir C. Campbell had required one regi-
ment to supply that which had been taken away by the or-
ders of Lord Gosford ; and with respect to the other part of
the Noble Lord's question, whether any allusion was made
to the command of the forces, be was not prepared to an-
swer that.

Lord REDESDALE—Then am I to understand dis-
tinctly, that there was an application made for additional
forces received on the 3d of August, 1837, and that that
met with a re‘usal ?
Lord GLENELG—Yes.
IRISH EDUCATION.
The Bishop of EXETER gave notice that he should
to-morrow put a question to her Majesty's Ministers rela-
tive to their intention with respect to the revival of the
Committee on Irish education.

Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the
Agent of the Earl of Stirling, her Majesty's Hereditary