The Sun.
London, England, 1854-03-03 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 3, 1854.

seam to the army, which at present belongs to the secre-
taries of State, should for the future be vested in the Se-
cretary at War. 2. An alteration should be made in the
'form of the appointment of the Secretary at War :—I.
`That he should in future be always a member of the
Cabinet. 11. That he should be the Minister by whom
the advice of the Cabinet, as to the amount
of the military establishments, should be laid
before the King. 111. That he should be the person to
consider and act on all points with the Commander-in
Chief on behalf of the Administration, and to be imme-
diately responsible to Parliament for all the measures of
Government with reference to the army. IV. That he
should assume all the merely formal duties relating to the
subject now performed by the Secretaries of State, such as
the preparing and countersigning of military commissions,
and the issuing of orders for the delivery of arms to the
troops. 3. The Secretary of State, to whom the civil
administration of our numerous colonies, with all their
complicated interests, is entrusted, cannot possibly give
the attention to the subject (amount and distribution of
the army) which it requires. 4. The Secretary at War,
by whom the army estimates are now moved in the House
of Commons, seems to us to be the person to whom the
important duty of watching over the whole military
administration of the country should be properly com-
mitted. 5. To give him (the Secretary at War)
a direct control over those large branches of busi-
ness relating to the military service of the country
which are now managed by the Board of Ordnance
and by the commissariat department of the Treasury. 6.
With respect to the Ordnance, we think this might best
be accomplished by dividing the civil from the military
duties of that department. I. The latter (the military du-
ties) should be left, as at present, in charge of the Master-
General, who should exercise the same authority he now
has in all matters of discipline, promotion, &c., subject to
the general orders of the Government, to be conveyed to
him, as we have already explained, by the Secretary at
War, instead of by the Secretary of State. 11. He should
also retain under his immediate orders the 'nspectougene-
ral of fortifications, and be charged with the duty of su-
perintending the execution of all military works. 7. The
civil business, on the other hand, should be brought under
the more direct control of the Secretary at War, by making
the board officers, by whom it is more immediately con-
ducted, subordinate to him instead of the Master-Master-Genial
and Board of Ordnance; so that their separate divisions of
the business would become branches of the War-office, and
the whole expenditure connected therewith would be pro-
vided for in the general army estimates." In support of
these recommendations, the hon. member read some ex-
tracts from the evidence of Earl Grey before the committee
of 1850, which, ho observed, ought to carry conviction to
every mind. He had hoped that these changes would have
been made long ago, not forced upon us by an impending
war. This was not a state of things which ought to con-
tinue a day longer. The Government ought to take steps
for carrying out these recommendations without delay. A
fogtnight ago he had asked if there was any such intention,
and being answered in the negative, he had no alterna-
tive but to bring on this motion. It might be said it was
ill-timed, but he contended that no further delay ought
to be permitted. The bon member concluded by moving
the resolution of which he had given notice.
Mr. A. PELLATT seconded the motion.
Mr. S. HERBERT said he certainly agreed much more
with some of the opinions which the hon. gentleman had
advanced in his speech than with the motion with whi h
he had concluded. He differed from some very material
portions of the report which he asked the house to adopt ;
and he (Mr. Herbert) concurred in many of his objections
to it. The house must first consider at what time and un-
der what circumstances this report of 1837 had been made.
There had then been great impediments to tie carrying on
of the public business, through differencies and controver-
sies which had arisen between different branches of the
war department. It was true that in 1812 there had 'been
very serious differences between the then Commander-in-
Chief, and the Secretary at War ; and at a later period,
shortly antecedent to the sitting of the committee, there
had been grave differences of opinion and very warm con-
troversy between them. There was peat in lispoeition on
the part of the military authorities to adopt any changes or
improvements, or to listen to suggestions from the War-
office and Lord Howick, fearing that his plans would not
meet With the concurrence of the military authorities, felt
that some change was necessary in the organisation of the
departments, to enable him to carry out those plans which
be was rightly convinced were necessary to the well-
being of the army. On more occasions than one he had
had to speak in high terms of Lord Howick's efforts for
the improvement of the condition of the army ; but if
those controversies existed then, and rendered the appoint.
ment of a commission necessary, an entirely different state
of things now prevailed. In the first place, the energy of
Lord Howick succeeded, in spite of all difficulties and
opposition, in carrying his plans into effect. At present,
-therefore, the ground of want of harmony between
the different officers no longer existed. In the last few
years very great changes had been originated in the War-
office; and ultimately they had been invariably successful.
During the administration of the present Lord Panmure
two of the greatest changes in the army were proposed by
him, and successfully carried out—the abolition of service
for life, and the substitution of a limited period of ten
years, and the introduction of examination for commissions
in the army. Those two were very vital changes. The
first altered the whole condition of service in the army.
The military authorities thought service for life almost a
necessary condition for the efficiency of the army ; but, in
spite of that Mr. Fox Maule was successful in carrying out
the change. In point of fact, at the present day, there
was harmony between the military and civil authorities ;
and the former entertained such enlightened and extended
views that the indisposition to introduce any change had
entirely disappeared. Therefore, on the ground of contro-
versy between the authorities, there no longer existed any
necessity for a change. (Hear.) But it was said the army
ought to have one head, as the navy had. Bat the navy
was not under one head, in the sense which tn.° hon. gen-
tleman proposed. In the nature of things, the navy must
be supplied with artillery anti stores by anotherdepartment.
All officers agreed that matters relating to artillery and
projectiles were more likely to be understood by those who
had devoted their lives to that scientific profession than by
the officers of the navy themselves ; and therefore thecom-
mission of 1837 did not recommend that the supply of the
navy with ammunition and warlike stores should be taken
from the Ordnance. Neither with regard to the disposition
of the forces was the navy under one head. The First Lord
took the orders of the Secretary of State as to where the
forces should be employed. When he was Secretary to the
Admiralty, applications constantly came to them from the
Foreign-office ; and the.), used to think it most inconve-
nient, inasmuch as the political necessities of the country
often diverted ships from places where, for the efficiency if
the service, the Admiralty wished to concentrate them. A
few years ago, when the insurrection broke out in the
lonian Islands, the Secretary of State issued orders to the
First Lord of the Admiralty to send ships from other ports
of the Mediterranean to assist in putting down that dis-
turbance. More recently, under the authority of the Home
Secretary, ships were sent ,to Ireland to supply the re-
quired assistance there. Therefore it was not correct that
if the Secretary at War were constituted into a Secretary
of State, he would be in the same position as the First Lord
of the Admiralty, who, in fact, took his ()niers from the
Secretaries of State. -Then came the question—was it wise
that he should receive orders from the Secretary of State ?
It was proposed that an officer should be constituted who
should perform all the duties now performed by the Secre-
tary at War, by the Master-General of the Ordnance (as
.far as the civil duties of the ordnance went), by the trea-
sury, and by the commissariat ; ands in addition to this
vast consolidation of offices, that he should likewise per-
form the duties of two Secretaries of State for the Home
and Colonial Departments, and by his authority order and
be responsible for the distribution of all the forces of the
country. This would not increase promptitude, or make
the machine less cumbrous. How was the Secretary
at War to judge whether an additional force was
requisite in a certain district in England ? There might
be strikes in Lancashire, bread riots in Wales, or political
disturbances in Ireland ; but the Secretary at War could
only obtain information of these things from the Home
Secretary. For that reason he would not be responsible.
He had no knowledge on the subject, and could only gain
it by going to the Home Secretary. The same with regard
to our colonial empire ; he could, in fact, be only ago be-
tween. Tee Colonial Secretary knew what colony might
require the presence of troops; the Secretary at War could
not know it. In point of fact, therefore, it would be the
Home Secretary and the Colonial Secretary who would dic-
tate to the Commander-in-Chief, as now- but, in place of
doing it themselves, the orders must be filtered through
this new officer, who would be like a third wheel placed
between two cog-wheels that were moving each other with
accuracy. The result would be to create great difficulties
where now there was much simplicity, and a far more cir-
cuitous and cumbrous mode of arriving at the same end.
He did not pretend to say that the present system was a
perfect system. (Hear.) Theoretically, no doubt, there was
much fault to be found with it; practically, it worked well.
But it was his conviction that by a well considered change
it might be made to work better. In support of his view he
would refer to the evidence of Lord Panmure before the
committee of 1850, as to the direction and distribution of
the forces. He was asked what member of the Government
he thought most competent to form an opinion with respect
to the wants of the public service, and if any one was more
so than the Home Secretary. He said certainly not— the
Home Secretary was the most capable, and he ought to be
the person who should advise with reference to all matters
connected with the preservation of the peace, for he was
constantly in communication with all parts of the country,
npr could any one be so immediately responsible in case of
civil war or disturbance. -Whoever might be the party to
decide on what force was to be maintained in the country,
Ile of course must be guided by the advice of the Home
hoSecr_e_ta_ry,
.as to what force should be maintained in the
seweruetmaryistzte If these duties were transferred to the
War, he would have to go to the Home Sec.
and?l' f
avor the information necessary to guide his judgment,
it
lifinis,,lld be a mere shifting of responsibility from one
murto nether. Such was the opinion of Lord Pan
l'ellPonsibility of the new Minister would sim -
ply aMOILIIL
sotOniathnia, that he was told by the Home Secre-
tary that
After all he would treoopst a
were required in the country.
taries of State andthebu go-between between the ecre-
nCommander-in-Chief. His owns iews
were that they could
Btrtdd very largely to the existing
consolidation in the
-the duties of three or fournitenae department. It had had
1815. He confessed that if h
Partments cast upon it since
ference to any existing eircume had the power, without re-
circumstances, or the difficulties in
which we were placed at this moment, when it was neces-
a cleathr
not to change our tree.% but
ndisesttinlicetmio,nhebesthwoeulend
say that there ought to be
the Ordnance and the Commander •
General of the Ordnance was a far more • •
-th-ebief •
The Master-
than the latter
than the Commander-in-Chief. wag true
officer
had the appointment of officers, the
selec-
tion ; but that was almost a matter of court:Lon and
make no alteration in the army which involved He could
pensewithont the consent of the Secretary at -ar opix-
promoted whom he pleased to a vacancy; but that v. ri—oee
could only be created by consent of the Secretary at Nva•
Similar duties were performed by the Master-General of
the Ordnance, but without the same check. The Produc-
tion of arms, the construction and maintenance of fortifi-
Cons both came under the decision of the Master-General
of the Ordnance. These duties were very complicated in
their nature, and required the advice of men eminently
scientific. If batteries were erected in places where they
were useless, an unnecessary expense was incurred, and
men were kept there when they might be more usefully
employed in other parts. One error carried with it very
grave and serious consequences. He was therefore justified
in saying that, though not so high in rank, the office of
Master-General was a more difficult and important one than
that of Commander-in-Chief So far as he had seen of the
working of the War-office in connection with the Horse
431uards, he attributed very much of the financial economy
in the management of the army to this fact—that one offi-
cer incurred the expense, and a different officer checked
it. (Rear, hear.) He believed that the reason why the
army had been administered so much more economically
than the navy was, that there was an extraneous officer

vigilantly watching every step, and with full power to ar-
rest any step inconsistent with economy. He thought that
the check applied by the War-office to th,3 Horse Guards
ought to be applied by the War-office to the Ordnance.
That was a matter of private opinion ; he pledged no other
member of the Government to it. A furth,r division
might be made, though there were difficulties in the way.
Let the Commander-in-Chief command the personnel
of the army, and the Master-General of the Ordnance have
the direction of the materiel. That would be a plain line
of demarcation, and one that would tend to the greater
efficiency of the military service. (Hear.) But he was
aware that opinion was not shared by many who had con-
sidered the subject. It was not indispensable to that he
had mentioned before, which he thought sound and almost
indisputable, that the check over the military expenditure
now exercised by the Secretary at War on the Horse
Guards, might be applied, with great advantage to the
public service, to the Ordnance. (Hear.) Commissions
were at present drawn up in the office of the Secretary of
State : he knew no reason why they should not be drawn
up in the office of the Secretary at War, and counter-
signed by him. The commission of 1837 stated, that when
arms were required, the commander-in-chief wrote to the
Secretary at War, who wrote to the Home Secretary, and
there the thing stopped. Properly, the Home Secretary
ought to have taken the King's pleasure, who would have
signed a warrant, and upon that warrant the arms would
have been delivered. But King George the Fourth had a
great aversion to immediately signing his name ; conse-
quently the Secretary of State ceased to send the warrants
to him ; the applications were waste paper, and the arms
were sent by private intimation to the office. But her
present Majesty chose to sign whenever she was required
to do so ; and, with the wish to identify herself with
every portion of the public business, she had continued to
sign every one of those warrants ; therefore they bad
ceased to be waste paper. The commission which sat before
1837—he thought in 1831—had drawn up a draft report,
bat which was not signed, taki g a different view from the
commission of 1837 with regard to the Master-General re-
taining in his possession the command of the artillery ;
but some of their recommendations had since been carried
out, as regarded the identifying in some respects the regu
lations of the artillery and of the line ; and there were
others which might be carried oat with greater facility.
With regard to the commissariat department, he was of
opinion--keeping in view the general principle that the
commander-in-chief should have the control over the per
sonnet, and the Ordnance-office over the materiel of the
army—that the commissariat might be transferred to the
latter, if the command of the artillery were transferred to
the Horse Guards ' • but then he would apply there also the
financial check of the Secretary at War. (Hear, hear.)
He had explained unreservedly his own opinions to the
house, but he thought that whatever changes were male
should be made step by step. They ha i a system which,
whatever its defects, gave practically, in emergencies like
the present, very efficient results. It sometimes happened
that gentlemen overrated the evils of a division of labour.
What was really of importance was that there should be
consentaneous action amongst different departments for the
production of a given result. If colleagues were animated
with a firm desire to carry out the objects of the public
service, it was possible to combine their action together was
to produce the same results as if they were under one head.
Since he bad been in office it had been the custom to meet
periodically at the Home-office, when the Master-General
of the Ordnance, the Inspector of Fortifications, the First
Lord of the Admiralty, the Commander-in-Chief, and him-
self, went carefully through the different changes made with
regard to the home defences. Where colonial questions
were treated of the same thing was done, with the addi-
tional presence of the Colonial Secretary. The Colonial
Secretary was, to a certain extent, a war minister, for
several of their foreign possessions were not colonies in the
strict sense of the term, but rather colonial garrisons, such
as Malta, Gibraltar, Bermuda, St. Helena, and Manritius,
which were held for war purposes. No one ever thought
of proposing to put the government of these colonies into
the hands of the Secretary at War. Of the three secre-
taries of state the Foreign Secretary's office had the most
onerous duties at present ; the duties of the Home-office
were increesing, and those of the Colonial Secretary alone
were likely to become much lighter. Where they trusted
the responsibility of self-government to the colonies, the
administrative duties of the Colonial Secretary were
' almost entirely cut off. Some 15 or 16 years ago Canada
gave more trouble and caused more anxiety in the
breast of the Colonial Secretary than all the rest put
together. (Hear, hear.) There was no part of their
colonial empire which now gave less trouble to, or con-
sumed less of the time of, the Colonial-office than Canada.
As soon as they gave self-government to the Cape, to Ans-
. tralia' and Van Diemen's Land, where they had now got
rid of the greatest of all their difficulties, the convict ques-
tion, the same thing would happen. The Colonial Secre-
tary and the Secretary at War were unfit to direct the ope-
rations of war ; but practically they had experience as to
how the machinery worked under high pressure. They
were sending out now a larger force—he would not' say
than ever left these shores—but it was a larger force than
was sent out with the Duke of Wellington to Portugal,
and was even a larger English force than went to Waterloo,
and it left with far greater attention bestowed upon their
efficiency and health than upon any previous force which
left their shores. They did this also in an unprecedentedly
short space of time. All persons who saw the troops leav-
ing concurred in saying that troops never wont forth in a
higher state of efficiency, both as to appearance and spirit,
than those who had recently left. (Hear.) They knew
by experience, therefore, that all these different depart-
ments of the Government worked harmoniously together,
and though he confessed it was his own wish to carry out
the changes he had stated, he should look with alarm to the
success of a motion which pledgedithein to put the whole
of the machinery out of gear, and to substitute in a time
of emergency for old arrangements which practically
worked well, others which might possess a greater degree
of theoretical perfection, but which were new and untried.
The success of departments depended on an accurate know-
ledge of routine. In the public departments of this coun-
try they had some men of very great ability. (Hear, hear )
There were others who, though not possessed of such great
ability, were yet very useful from their long experience,
and who, from having their minds constantly fixed on on
object, were so much masters of the details of business
that their information and action on the subjects of their
office was almost mechanical and involuntary. (Hear.)
But if they chang -d the position of these men ; if they
were asked to originate a new routine, if they were run
off the rails, as it were, it would lead to complete con-
fusion. (Hear, hear.) His right hon. friend the First
Lord of the Admiralty organised a change in that depart-
ment of the largest and most important kind. He (Mr. S.
Herbert) asked him if he would have done that during
a war period, or a time of pressure. He said that it took
years to get the different officers to accustom themselves
to the use of the new machinery, and that it would
be impossible to attempt such a change during the pres-
sure of war, which taxed the energies of all the departments
to the utmost. He thought the greatest credit was due to
his hon. friend the member for Montrose and the house
generally for the support which they had given the Govern-
ment during the present emergency—(hear)—but he con-
fessed that if the present motion necessitated the immedi-
ate adoption of so large a change and so great a consolidation
of departments, it would militate most seriously. if feasible
at all, which he doubted, against the efficiency of the
public service (Hear, hear.) Having expressed the
opinions he entertained himself, with entire unreserve,
with respect to the changes which he thought shonld be
made at the proper time, he hoped the hon. gentleman
would not press his motion on the present occasion.
Lord SEYMOUR said he joined his right hon. friend
who had just sat down in his liberal and well-considered
views with respect to the improvement of departments,
and he did not even object to the statement by which he
qualified his argument, when he said that this was not the
fitting time to effect it. He heard with no dissatisfaction
an argument of that kind from a member of a cabinet by
whom that plea had been treated with such scorn and con-
tempt (Hear, hear.) The office of Secretary at War was
created in 1795, and in 1801 the colonies were transferred
to him. At that time the Secretary of War had little to do
with regard to the colonies ; they did not give the trouble
which they did at a later period. He hoped his right
hon. friend's prophecy with respect to the colonies would
prove to be right; but seeing that they had forty colonies,
with only one secretary to superintend and answer all
the correspondence, and to make himself acquainted with
the details which were brought under his notice, he
thought that was quite sufficient for one man,
without his having also to be responsible for the
management of a great war. Earl Grey, who had been
Secretary at War, stated before the committee, when Se-
cretary for the Colonies and Secretary at War, that it was
perfectly impossible for him to exercise a constant super-
intendence over the military affairs of the country. (Hear,
hear.) In former times, during the last war, he believed
the Colonial Secretary had an under secretary who was a
military man. At present there was nothing of the kind.
He wanted to know if any assistance would be aflOrded to
that officer in this respect, so that ho might not labour
under any disadvantage, as compared with the Secretary
at War during the last war? The real question after all
was, had the 'resent system worked well ? They had at
one time the Duke of Wellington Prime Minister, Sir G.
Murray Colonial Secretary, and Lord Hardinge Secretary
at War, but even at that time, with all these military men
in office, Lord Grey stated that the arrangements were so
complicated that the system by no means worked well.
The noble lord proceeded to quote official letters from the
Governor of the Bahamas, complaining of the unhealthi-
ness of the officers' quarters, and also those of the men, and
showing that bad health, and frequently mortality, resulted
from this state of things, and yet in consequence of the
press of business in the colonial department these letters
went for a whole year without answer. At last a letter,
signe.l James Stevens, admitted that the early portions of
the correspondence had been lost, and that the delay in
answering the remainder arose from the fact of the matter
having had to pass through five departments. (Hear,
hear.) It was this multiplicity of correspondence, and con-
sequent delay, of •thich they complained. (Hear.) In an-
other case a question arose as to the repair of barracks in
Turk's Island, and after a year's correspondence it was
ascertained that the island was not under the Board of
Ordnance at all. Another and a strong case of hardship
arising from the present system was connected with the
supply of food to the troops in the West India Islands.
For nineteen years there had been complaints from the
medical department on the subject, and at last when Lord
Howick became Secretary at War he endeavonrnd to sub-
stitute fresh for salt provisions. There was no end of cor-
respondence among all the officers, and it was a year before
the change was effected, and then it was found that the
change was not healthful but economical, and that during
the nineteen years lives might have been saved and health
preserved had there been a prompt and efficient means of
making a necessary change. (Hear, hear.) He (Lord Sey-
mour) would leave it to the Secretary for the Colonies
to say what troops were necessary for the places under
his superintendence, but he would place the general
civil administration of the army in the hands of the
Secretary at War. He wished to say, however, that
every member of the committee had been deeply im-
pressed with the efficiency of every one in the Secretary
at War's department, and their only regret was that they ,
had not a little more to do. Although he did not think it
necessary to divide the house on the present motion, nor I
would he assert that the present was a fitting time for im-
portant changes, still he thought that by transferring much
of the duty now performed in the Colonial-office to the
Secretary at War, much good would be done both to the
service and the country.
Sir J PA.KINGTON thought that the hon. member for
Montrose had done service to the house and the country by
introducing this subject. (Hear, hear.) He agreed in the
spirit of much that had fallen from the right hon. Secre-
tary at War, but did not think he had been successful in
clothinganswering
system, a yof the points raised by the hon. member
for Moatrose. The hon member had adverted to the
mmaunenhearciai;vdahl the. system of purchasing cavalry
t horses, and other points, which from time to time had
wasbroutghhet
were butrt the main
with the army icohn'thtehseevseerrvalledee'pa men s connected
report commission 'no
Pakingtoof nth)ewm net ashamed (Hear, hear.) He (Sir J.
efdlB3to77p.guressabbisynspuperhovnaalmoefsthaes
Palmerston and J. Russell, althoughsleit would seem from
nthoeblsep;oecrdsh ofw atsheprSepecarreedtaryliwattoWcanyar thatout ntheieteorwouf
viewsthose

s there expressed. They seemed to think that the present
was not a time for making great changes, although that
argument did not seem to have influenced them in other
and very important matters. (Hear, hear.) Surely it
would not be contended that the present was a satisfactory
mode of carrying on any Government department, or one
that could produce efficiency. In the first place, they had
an army governed by a Secretary of State for the Colonies.
Then they had the Commander-in-Chief, and again they
had the Master-General of the Ordnance. Where was the
necessity for these distinctive offices in carrying on a public
department which, like all others, would be much more
satisfactorily conducted by one authority ? The noble lord
(Seymour) had referred to matters which he (Sir J. Paking-
ton's) experience tended to confirm. When he was Secre-
tary for the Colonies, he recollected on one occasion re-
ceiving urgent representations as to the health of the troops
employed on colonial service in different parts of the world.
The soldiers it appeared were suffering from sickness caused
by a deficiency in the commissariat, and when he sought to
apply a remedy he found that he had to refer to one depart-
ment, which had to refer to another, and while these
several departments were putting questions one to another,
no remedy could be provided. He thought the right hon.
gentleman had altogether failed in answering the argu-
ments put forward in support of the motion ; on the
contrary, what he had stated as an answer, tended to
confirm those arguments. The right hon. gentleman said,
" Tree, we have all these separate departments for the
management of the army, but they are all acting har-
moniously together." If they were acting harmoniously
now, it could not be forgotten that there had been discord
between them, which discord might revive, and it was of
the greatest importance to take measures in time to guard
against the injury to the public service which must result
should such discord occur whilst our army was in the field.
I (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman said no sufficient
reason had been adduced for creating a Secretary of State

for the War Department. Now he J. Pakington) did
not understand the motion to point to that conclusion.
What the hon. member for Montrose did in his resolution
was to urge the necessity of placing the department under
one efficient officer. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Hume.) That
was the hon. gentleman's object, and when the right hon.
gentleman (Mr. S. Herbert) stated that the Queen's com-
mands were now conveyed sometimes through one officer
and sometimes through another, he certainly showed no
reason why the Secretary of State for the Colonies should
continue in the anomalous position of being also Secretary
:It War. The business of the colonial department alone
was more than enough for any one man without encum-
bering it with the duties which in no way belonged to
it. In time of peace perhaps the Secretary for the Colo-
nies might continue to act as Secretary at War, but
when he held the office ho felt that should war take
place it would be impossible for the business of the two
departments to be satisfactorily performed by the same
person. They had been told that this was not the time
to make any change. But the recommendation of the
commission was made in time of peace, and then the
change was not made because we were at peace, and now

it way to be deferred because we were entering upon war.

Depend upon it the public would not be satisfied that a
question involving the efficient administration of so im-
portant a department should be thus trifled with. He
hoped the Government would seriously consider whether
it would be unwise at the present moment to organise a
new department, and if they should be of opinion that the
working of such new department at first might be incon-
venient, and prejudice the service, then he would urge
upon them to consider whether some change might not be
made by which the colonial department might be relieved
from duties which it could not properly discharge. The
noble lord had thrown out a suggestion which he thought
a good one—namely, to appoint a now secretary of state to
transact the war business. The right hon. gentleman had
met the case in a frank spirit ; for he admitted that the
present system was bad, and ought to be changed, and he
trusted the Government would act upon that admission,
and effect the change as speedily as was prudent— (hear,
hear)—and in that hope he would press upon the hon.
member for Montrose not to press his motion.
Mr. E. ELLICE also expressed a hope that his hon
friend would not divide ; for if he (lid he thought the Go-
vernment would be left in a minority. In the face of the
almost general feeling of the house, it was impossible,
he thought, in a rational country to permit the present
confused administration of an important public depart-
ment to continue. But there was one influence which ap
peared to be paramount with the Government—that of Sir
Charles Trevelyan, of the Treasury. He had the highest
respect for that gentleman, but he would urge the right
hon. gentleman who was now adopting some of his views,
to look back at the evidence he gave before the committee
on the army and navy expenditure. The right hon. gen-
tleman would there see an instance of a public officer who
had the faculty of making plenty of business if he could
not very readily despatch it. He recollected that Mr.
Sheridan once said of Mr. Whitbread that he was so indus-
trious that it was a pity he had so many dray horses, be-
cause if he had not he would draw all his drays himself.
(A laugh.) Sir Charles Trevelyan seemed equally indus-
trious, and was anxious to add to the business of one
department the whole of the emigration business of the
country. For his own part, he always looked with suspi-
cion upon a man who proposed to do by a public depart-
ment that which the public out of doors could do much
better for themselves. The incompatibility of the
duties of the war department being united with those
of the Colonial Secretary was shown the other day,
when but for Mr. Guthrie's letter the troops would
have been sent out without the necessary ambulances
and field hospitals. It was due, however, to the Duke of
Newcastle to say, that the moment his attention was
called to the subject they were provided. The clothing of
the army was under a board of general officers ; the arms
tinder one authority, the commissariat under another ; in
short, the details of the service depended upon so many
different parties that in no other country in the world
would such a system be tolerated. What they wanted by
this motion was to take from any Secretary of State the
duty of providing for another department than his own.
They wanted to have one authority to whom the Colonial
Secretary, the Home Secretary, and the Foreign Secre-
tary, when troops were required for the service of either
department, should apply, and that all the military au-
thorities should report to one head. With regard to the
sxpedition sent out to the East, they had the consolation
of knowing that it was commanded by one of the best
officers in the service--(cheers)—and at the same time one
of the best practical men of business in this or any other
country. (Cheers.) They might depend, therefore, that
there would be no division of authority when that noble
lord (Raglan) commanded, and that the ordnance, commis-
sariat, and medical department, anti everything else con-
nect d with the force, would be looked to by himself.
(Hear.) And as that was the best mode of carrying on the
military department abroad he and his hon friend (Mr.
Hume) desired to see the same principle at home.
Colonel KNOX hoped the ordnance would be placed
under the same management as the rest of the army.
He believed that it was necessary that the whole army
should be under one head, and it never would be in a state
of efficiency until that was the case He thought that as
we were embarking troops for foreign service, it was rather
late for the Government not to have made up their minds
as to what description of arms the troops should have.
There were two sorts of arms in use by the troops and se-
veral kinds of ammunition, whereas there ought to be one
uniform kind of arms and ammunition. As recorded the
Minie rifles, he was told that they required with the balls and
ammunition a certain quantity of grease ; and in a hot cli-
mate, with 60 rounds of cartridges, the requisite quantity
of grease would be diminished ; and after firing a few
rounds the rifles would become inefficient, in consequence
of the want of grease, without which the balls could not
he forced down. This was a matter that required atten-
tion
Colonel MAULE said there were only two kinds of arms
carried by the troops, the smooth bore musket and the
Minie rifle, and only two corresponding sorts of ammuni-
tion. As to the difficulty of loading the Minis, he was
assured by Colonel Hay that to a man accustomed to using
the rifle there was no difficulty in forcing the ball down.
Lord J. RUSSELL said—Sir, I confess that my opinion
as to the general evils of the present state of the War De-
partment is not very much altered from what it was when
tip subject was inquired into some time ago. As to the re-
medywhich was then proposed, I have some doubts certainly
with regard to a part of the authority which it was suggested
should be given to the Secretary at War. I think that other
arrangements might, perhaps, be bettor for the attainment
of the object we have in view. At all events, I consider it is
very clear from what has happened at various times—with
respect more particularly to the Ordnance department, and
the difficulty of making arrangements for the health of the
troops—that a more efficient and more direct authority is
required. My right hon. friend has stated that he thinks
the Ordnance ought to be more connected with the Secre-
tary at War than it now is—that as the Secretary at War
checks all the expenditure of the Commander-in-Chief, en
he ought also to check the expenditure of the Ordnance.
I believe. if this were done, it would not only serve as a
check, but the operations of the Ordnance department
would be much facilitated and made more effective than
they now are. It has been asked why it was that the re-
port of 18.37 was not carried into effect. The first consider-
ation of that report came naturally before Lord Melbourne,
who was then the head of the Government, and he imme-
diately entered into a correspondence with the Duke of
Wellington on the subject. The Duke of Wellington wrote
two or threelettersto Lord Melbourne, who found that those
letters contained many objections to the report. They were
chiefly objections of a constitutional nature, as relating to
the functions of the Secretary-at-war. His grace thought
that certain things could only be done by the Secretary-at-
War—that he was the proper person to take her Majesty's
Pleasure, and to give directions to the Commander in-Chief.
These objections, proceeding from so high an authority,
and being enforced by able arguments, induced Lord Mel-
bourne to think it better at that time not to take steps to
carry out the report. I quite concurred in Lord Melbourne's
opinion, and would not have liked to be a party to enforce
objections.
jeencteiwonas. rrawngitettment against the authority of the Duke of
reePllt to
explainedthe the Great Wellington, who, on this point, entertained very decided
e nt
nowdi difficulty t
yP°l
my right hon. friend and
inconvenience that would arise from attempting to carry
into effect a new organisation of the departments at a mo-
ment when they are all required to make the utmost exer-
tions in the preparation of this expedition. But there is
one suggestion which has been made in this house that has
already been taken into consideration, viz., the suggestion
that there should be, and especially in time of war, not
only an Under Secretary of State f r the Colonial Depart-
ment, but that there should be a military secretary attach-
ed to the office of my noble friend the noble duke at the
head of the war and colonial departments. That suggestion
has already been taken into consideration, and will, I trust,
in a very short time be adopted. I believe it is necessary
that some arrangement of that kind should be made to
enable the noble duke to carry into effect the preparations
in which he has been so busily engaged. My noble friend,
having, charge of the War and Colonial Departments, has
' paid the utmost attention to all the arrangements which
are necessary at this moment. Instead of its being a
great public convenience I believe it would be a great pub-
lic inconvenience, if the carrying out of these arrange-
ments were to he transferred to any other department; but
I quite agree with the hon. member for Montrose, that
hotter arrangements are required, and I am sure that the
hon. gentleman and the house will feel satisfied after the
speech of my right hon. friend the Secretary at War, that
no want of attention will he shown to this subject.
Mr. HUME said that, after the statements which had
been made to the house on the part of the Government,
he would not at present persevere any farther with his
motion.

The motion was then withdrawn.
HUSTINGS EXPENSES.
Mr. HUME said that he was sorry to trouble the house,
but he had now another question to bring before its notice.
(A laugh He won!" move for )rave to brin:‘,. in 1)111 o
charge the expensei of hngtings at elections upon counties
and boroughs in lieu of the candidates.
The motion having been seconded by Mr. WILLIAMS,
Lord J. RUSSELL stated that he saw no objection

to the introduction of the bill, and leave was accordingly
given.
On the motion of Mr. HUME, the following returns were
ordered :—Copies of the report and evidence, from a com-
mittee in 1849, appointed to inquire into the coat of mus•
kets. Of the petition of the gun-lock makers in 1852 re-
specting Minie rifles. Of the advertisement for tenders for
the materials of 20,000 muskets in September, 1853, and
of the tenders sent in, stating the names of the persons
tendering, whether accepted or rejected. Of any contract
in October,'lBs3, with Brazier and Sons for 20,000 mus-
kets, stating the time for executing the contract, and
whether executed.
AUSTRALIAN EMIGRATION.

On the motion of Mr. RUSSELL, in the absence of Mr.
Butt, the following returns were ordered : —Returns of
the depots established by the Colonial Land Emigration
Commissioners for the purpose of sending emigrants to
the Australian colonies with free passages, with the date
of the establishment of each. Of the total expense of
maintaining each depot in each year since its establish-
ment, and of the number and salaries of the persons em-
ployed in each. Of the sum expended in each year in
paying the expenses of the transmission of emigrants from
Ireland to each depot. And of the total number of
emigrants in each year who have been sent with free pas-
sages from each depot, and of the number of such emi-
grants who have been Irish.

REPEAL OF TAXES ON KNOWLEDGE.

The annual public meeting of the Association for Pro-
moting the Repeal of all Taxes on Knowledge was held
last evening at Exeter Hall. The meeting was nume-
rously attended.
The chair was occupied by John Lewis Ricardo, Esq.,
M.P., who was supported by Mr. Cobden, M.P., Sir J.
Walingley, M.P., Mr. Lawrence Heyworth, M.P., Mr.
Craufurd, M.P., Mr. H. Ingram, Mr. Nicholay, Mr.
Cassell, &c., &c.

The CHAIRMAN, in opening the proceedings, said that the
question they had to discuss resolved itself into two points,
that of revenue and that of polioy. It, had, for many years,
been adopted as a principle in our fiscal system, that the
raw materials of manufactures should be exempted from
taxation ; and certainly a raw material which had a
better claim to exemption than paper he could not con-
ceive, for it was at once a raw material of manufacture
and a necessary means for the diffusion of education
and intelligence amongst the people. He was afraid,
however, that they would be met with peculiar diffi-
culties in agitating for the remission of this tax during
the present year ; because the Chancellor of the Exchequer
WAS sure to tell there that, in the face of the large expen-
diture that would be incurred for the war, be could not
afford to remit any taxes. To that, however, the associa- .
tion replied that better sources of taxation might be found
than paper. With respect to the stamp on newspapers,
he did not think that any Chancellor of the Exchequer
would tell them that that was a question of revenue. It
would be better to stamp anything rather than the
newspaper, the necessary means of the dissemination of
knowledge amongst the people. If there ever was a
time at which it was important to remove every impedi-
ment to the progress of education, it was the present,
when we were going to extend the franchise to hundreds
of thousands of new voters. At the same time he be-
lieved that the people had a natural desire for knowledge,
and that if the means of obtaining it were placed within
their reach, the education of the people would soon make
considerable advances. It was no doubt true that if the
stamp were abolished a good many indifferent papers
would be started at first, but he believed that the com-
mon sense of the people would soon teach them to dis-
criminate between the merits of the different publica-
tions, and that the good ones would alone be eventually
successful. Mr. Ricardo then commented upon the pre-
sent anomalous and unsatisfactory state of the law with
respect to newspapers, and upon the want of success of
the attempt made by the Government last session to de-
fine what a newspaper is. He believed that, as the law
now stood, it would be quite possible for a publication
to give news without rendering itself liable to a stamp,
by simply introducing each paragraph with a comment,
and throwing its statements of facts into the form of
leading articles. In conclusion the hon. gentleman said
that this was a people's question and a poor man's ques-
tion. ,It was in vain to expect that the friends of that
association could succeed in the house unless they had
the aid of the people, and it was to obtain that aid that
they had come there that evening. (Cheers.)
Mr. JOHN CASSELL moved the first resolution, "That
paper, the raw material of knowledge, and an important
element in our manufacturing and commercial prosperity,
is not a fit subject for taxation, and that any increase of
expenditure ought to be met by taxes less injurious to
the general interests of the country." With the excep-
tion of intoxicating liquors and tobacco, it was the
only domestic manufacture now subjected to the
espionage of the Excise. Paper was used in a variety
of trades ; and in proportion as its consumption was
extended the employment of the people would be in-
creased. On this ground alone every friend of corn
mercial freedom must seek the repeal of this tax.
Mr. Cassell then accused the Government of insincerity
in its professions on the subject of education in still levy-
ing a tax which amounted to a profit upon our cheap
literature, and which, combined with the scarcity of the
material for the manufacture, threatened to extinguish it
altogether. Being a printer and publisher himself; he
could speak on this subject. He was not a printer and
publisher, however, by profession, for all the schooling
he ever got was finished by the time be was nine years
of age. Now that he hail got into the business he had
made it his duty to publish that description of hooks which
suited the class from which he sprung. His efforts, how-
ever, had been much checked by this tax on paper, and,
as one instance of it, he might state that during the first
year of the existence of the Popular Educator, published
by him, he bad paid no less than 1,3201. in the shape of
taxes upon paper. On another publication, that of
Euclid, a shilling publication, he had paid for that ls.
publication no less than 601. to Government in the shape
of taxes. He was now publishing a weekly publication.
It was a penny publication, and was illustrated ; bat
what would they think when be told them that on that
penny weekly publication he paid no less than 1201.
per week as a tax on the paper of it, being 6,0001. per
annum. (Hear, hear.) That showed how this tax on
paper prevented a proper flood of intelligence being let
out upon the people.
Mr. HERBERT INGRAM, of the Illustrated News
seconded the resolution. The duty curtailed his efforts
in every department of the business he was connected
with, and he hoped it would soon be repealed. Mr. Dis-
raeli, when out of office, objected to the duty, and
wished its repeal, but when he got into office, like most
other members of Parliament he changed his opinion,
and could not consent to its repeal. (Laughter.)
Mr. Gladstone was also favourable to its repeal,
but being on the eve of a war, he perhaps would not
consent to it at the present time. That he considered
no objection to its repeal, for they could hit the Empe•
ror of Russia as bard and as effectually with paper bullets
as they were likely to do with theircannot shot. (Laughter.)
He was a manufacturer as well as a consumer of paper,
and knew that there was no fear of a scarcity of the raw
material, for paper might be made of bark and many
other substances. The duty was of the most annoying
kind. Were it not for it, at a certain stage of the
manufacture of paper, and when it was in a wet state,
they could use it for the purpose of printing ; but at
present they could not do that by the Excise laws, as they
had to dry it and pack it up in sheets. while it had to be wet
again before it was used for the purpose of printing. The
consequence of this was that he paid 4001. a year, which
he might save were it not for these Excise laws as re-
garded paper. What the officers cost the government
he did not know. A drawback was allowed on books
sent abroad, but there was infinite trouble in going
through the necessary forms, inclucing the attendance of
the proprietor, with his sureties, at Towes-hill. A few
years ago he had published a spelling-book at a shilling,
which, but for the Excise duty, might be published at
sixpence. One of the anomalies of the existing law was
that plain paper imported from abroad paid 3d. a lb.
duty, but if it were printed, only lid. That was the
way in which the government encouraged English print-
ing. (Cheers.) The materials of paper (rags) were col-
lected in all parts of Europe, including Russia, and it
might be some consolation to the serfs of that country to
be told that their rags were converted into paper on
which we told the Emperor of Russia what we thought
about him. (Cheers.) Much good had been done by
the repeal of the advertisement duty ; and he hoped the
paper duty would soon follow.

Mr. HODGKIN supported the resolution, and read an
extract from the Alta-California of Jan. 16 last (pub-
lished in San Francisco, a city which had not an exist-
ence six years ago, but had now eleven daily papers),
stating that many people in England took second-hand
papers, and asking, " Who in A merica would think of
taking a second-hand newspaper'" (Hear, hear.)
Nothing could be thought a greater meanness than to
wear second-hand clothes ; but the people of this coun-
try were obliged to be content with information at
second-hand ; and the great bulk of the people did not
know of the most important events, in which they were
deeply interested, until the day after they were pub-
lished in the papers. (Hear, hear.)
The resolution was then put, and carried unanimously.
The second resolution, moved by Mr. Collett, set
forth, "that while a system of cheap newspaper postage
is a matter at once of high importance, and of easy at-
teinment, no postal privileges granted merely to a class
can compensate for the evils of the stamp tax on news
and of the security system, which were originally im-
posed, and are still retained, for the purpose of peventing
the cheap circulation of intelligence among the great
mass of the people."
Mr. COBDEN, M. P., said he did not cant about educa-
tion. What he wanted was that the people really should
have the opportunity of acquiring knowledge, and of im-
bibing the taste for discussing questions which related to
their every-day interest and welfare. He wanted not
schools where little was taught, and which sometimes were
really an obstruction to learning. What he wanted was
that the means of information should be scattered broad-
cast in the land, so that all should have the opportunity, as
they ran, to read and gather knowledge. He did not come
there as a party to any plan for patronising the people,
and doing good to them by charity or even legislative
enactment. He wanted to give them the opportunity,
which he was sure their instinct alone would induce
them to profit by, to gain knowledge and information
for themselves. It was presumption for any one or any
body of men, to say that they could, by any voluntary
or associated means, give general information or impart
general instruction to the people. Anyone who had
tried found that it was not so easy to do good to men as
individuals as they had sometimes been led to suppose ;
men must help themselves or they would not be helped
by others. (Cheers.) If that were true of individuals,
how much more did it apply to whole communities. He
repudiated the idea that by any charitable or voluntary
means they could give that instruction and enlighten-
ment which the peopla must acquire for themselves,
but which he feared had been the systematic purpose
of the legislation of this country to prevent their
acquiring. He spoke not of the paper duty ; that was a
fiscal and commercial question involving a large amount
of revenue. But the newspaper stamp did not involve
such an amount of revenue as need prevent any Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer,iwbether in time of peace or
war, from remitting that tax. By remitting it, he
meant doing away with the compulsory stamp upon
papers, and allowing them to do what was done by the
Athenceuin, Punch, the Builder, and other papers, to
pay the tax on those papers which went through the
post, allowing those which did ❑ot to be published with-
out a stamp. (Hear.) That was all they asked. Exist-
ing newspapers were not universally opposed to the re-
peal of the stamp duty ; the most prosperous and in-
fluential members of the press had been the most favour-
able to this movement. Those who were in the greatest
prosperity had opposed it the least ; but the resolutions
passed at meetings of provincial newspaper proprietors
showed decided opposition from them. They would never
succeed completely in their object till they convinced
these gentlemen that they took a mistaken and narrow
view of their own interest, and that in reality their interest
was that of the public. In like manner, he was pre-
pared to show that no class was so much injured by the
stamp as the newspaper proprietors. We had this ex-
tr:i.ordio pn,.trun,•!.c.'.' it: Poi,u!'lllQ C01,C214-
trated England that there was no town in England
where a daily paper was supported except in London.
Had this monopoly been very beneficial to the London

daily press ? Compare the daily press of London with
that of New York, a city of about 700.000 inhabitants
with the suburbs, while London and its suburbs had up-
wards of two and a half millions—London, the metro-
polis of the commercial world—the factor, the banker,
the broker for the commercial world, and New York not
a capital at all, but merely the principal seaport of one
of the States of the American Union. In the first place,
New York had twice or thrice as many daily papers as
London. But what was their character with regard to
profit ? He spoke not of the literary talent, for there
was no comparison in talent between our first daily
papers and those of America. He said, as the result
of some investigation, that there was far more money
made by the daily papers in New York, where there was
perfect freedom from the stamp, than there was by
the daily papers in London. Mr. Horace Greesley,
the editor of the New York: Tribune, stated in evi-
dence before the committee two years ago, that
the copyright of a halfpenny daily paper in New
York had been sold for 250,000 dollars, or 50,0001.,
and lie should have considered it cheap at the
money. That was only one out of 20 or 30 daily papers,
and the cheapest of them all ; there were penny papers,
and those of higher price used by commercial men.
How many of the London daily papers would sell for
50,0001. ? He said deliberately, and from the best in-
formation both in London and New York, that twice as
much money was made every year in New York by
daily papers, where there was no restriction; as was made
in rich and flourishing London. (Hear, hear.) Was
this a natural or an exceptional state of things ? Was it
true of any other trade, the book trade, for instance?
Would anybody be so mad as to say that the grocers,
linendrapers, bootrnakers, hatters, or tailors of London,
supplying 2,500,000 of people, did not make inure
money every year than the same trades in New York,
with a population of only 700,000 ? The proprietor
was not the only person injured by the present
restrictions, for printers, reporters, editors and news-
venders all suffered ; and the same held true of the pro-
vincial press. There were, he would engage to say,
3,000,000 adult males in the United Kingdom who never
purchased a newspaper, and if the means were afforded
them for doing so existing journals could not suffer by
such a vast expansion of this class of readers, though
they might be obliged to bestir themselves. An article
had recently appeared in the Edinburgh, Review which
went upon the assumption that it was to the penny
stamp we were indebted for the superior character of
our press. He wondered whether the writer of that arti-
cle was a freetrader or a socialist. His doctrine in these
matters was that society would protect itself, and that
in newspapers especially people would find out the best
paper without being helped to it by legislative inter-
ference. Mr. Cobden then quoted to the meeting the
concluding passage of a most interesting and valu-
able report on the remarkable progress of mecha-
nical invention in the United States, by Mr. J. Whit-
worth, of Manchester. Mr. Whitworth, it will be re-
membered,went out last summer as one of the Royal
Commissioners on the occasion of the New York Exhi-
bition ; and his report, which has just been laid on the
table of the house, concludes by attributing the startling
advances which the people of the United States are
making in every branch of manufactures wherein labour-
saving machinery can be introduced to the united effects
of an unfettered press and general education. Mr. Cob-
den concluded by referring to the recent scandals against
the Prince Consort, who it was one day believed by
many people even in the metropolis, had been sent to
the Tower. Such ignorance of the rights of personal
liberty in this country showed a lingering credulity
amom; the lower station of society which still exposed us
to a Lord George Gordon riot, or a Titus Oates plot, or
even impostures like that of Perkin Warbeck in the
middle ages.
The resolution was then carried ; also another con-
demning the measure of last session to define what is a
newspaper, arid setting forth that the press should be
liberated from all control except that of a court of law.
The proceedings then terminated.

SPORTING INTELLIGENCE.

TATTEIZSALL'S.-THIIRSDAY.

THE DERBY.—The report from Liverpool that 7 to 1
had been offered on the field was, at first, received at
"The Corner" with a strong degree of distrust ; but in
the course of the afternoon the fact of Autocrat's retro-
gression to that point was evidenced by two bets of 300
to 100 each being laid against him, coupled with King
Tom. At the same time, the highest odds offered
against the latter separately were 13 to 2. At half a
point more some money would have been invested. 350
to 25 taken about Dervish, 1,000 to 50 Acrobat, and the
same about Wild Huntsman, 300 to 10 Marsyas, 875 to
25 Neville, awl 1,000 to 25 Bessus.
NORTHAMPTONSHIRE STAKES.-450 to 50 taken about
Red Lion.
THE Two THOUSAND.-150 to 50 taken about Ruby.
Nothing done on either the Metropolitan or the Great
Northern.
The room was only thinly attended.
CLOSING PRICES.
NORTHAMPTONSHIRE STAKES.
9to 1 agst Red Lion (taken).
CHESTER CUP.
20 to 1 agst Newminster (taken).
2,000 GUINEAS.
3to 1 agst Ruby (taken).
DERBY.
13 to 2 agst King Tom (take 7to 1).
14 to 1 agst Dervish (taken).
20 to 1 agst Acrobat (taken).
20 to 1 agst Wild Huntsman (taken).
30 to 1 agst Marsyas (taken).
35 to 1 agst Neville (taken).
40 to 1 agst Eessus (taken),
3to 1 agst Autocrat and King Tom coupled
(taken).