The Sun.
London, England, 1854-02-11 00:00:00

all kustralasia,
all British Colonial Bank
and Loan Company
all tritish N. America':
5 Chartl. Bank of Asia
2 _lhrtd. Buk. of India,
Australia, ,Sc China
25 'lolonial
20 ;ommercial of Lond
10 Euglish Scottish and

--
Aitstralian ..... . .....
15 Loud. Chart. Bk. o'

Australia
20 London and County
10 Loudon Joint Stock
20 Lond. & Westminster
35 National Provincial
of England
10 Do. New
22 National of Ireland
all New South Wales
all Oriental Bank of
Corporation.
5 Do. New
25 Provincial of Ireland
all Do. New
1 Royal Australn.Bkg
Sc Gold Imp Co
all south Australia
all Union of Australia
21 Do. New
10 Union of Loudon

biISCELLA.

all Xubin Coal and Iron
17 ustralian Agricult.
14 kustralsn.Pcifie.Mail
8 kustraln. Royal Mail
21 lerlin Water Works
3E4 Brit. American Laud
1 i3rit. & Coln. Smeltg.
and Reduction Co
321 Canada
5 Crystal Palace
4 Do.
2 Crystal Pal.of France
3 Eastern Steam
20 Electiit Tologra.ph(A)
all Do. (B)
1 Electric Teleg. of Ir.
14 Gen. Steam Navigat.
18 General Screw Steam
Irish Beet:oot Sugar
10 Magdalena. St. Navig.
all Nat. Pat. Steam Fuel
3 Netherlands Laud....
1 N. S. W. Coal &Inter.
Steam Navigat. Co.
all N. B. Australasian...
Do. New
10 Nrth.ofEurepeSteaml
all Peel Rr. Ld. &
all Peninsular & Oriental
30 Do. Do.
all Portland Iron Co
60 Royal Mail Steam
all Scot. Austral. Invest.
25 South Austral. Land
all Submar. Telegraph..
all Do. Registered
28i Van Diemen's Land

Lord St. Leonards has arrived in town from Boyle
Farm. The noble and learned baron, who is in the
receipt, we believe, of his full pension as an ex-Lord
Chancellor, will assist in the judicial business (appeals)
of the House of Peers during the session.

vigour and effect. These changes—even in times of
profound peace and tranquillity—are not unattended
- with certain inconvenience, but at a moment of actual
HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) preparation for war, or on the breaking out of hostilities,
I am sure that every man must feel that a change of
The Loan CHANCELLOR took his seat on the wool- Ministers would be attended with the greatest incon-
sack at 5 o'clock. venience, if not danger. We cannot afford to have a
THE EASTERN QUESTION. Ministerial crisis needlessly brought on, or needlessly
The Earl of CLARENDON having laid upon the table of risked, at a time when the attention of the country is
the house papers connected with the suspension of diplo-
entirely occupied with providing for its own defence,
and for the vigorous conduct of the hostilities with
matic relations between Russia and this country, which it is threatened. (Hear, hear.) It is on these
Earl FITZ WILLIAM said, I shall now proceed to grounds lam most anxious to know whether—even at
put to my noble friend at the head of the Foreign-office at the last moment—her Majesty's Government may be
the question of which I gave notice yesterday. It is so inclined to postpone bringing forward the measure to
which I have adverted. At the same time I quite agree
much a matter of notoriety that I need not remind your
with Ministers in thinking that the subject is one which
lordships of it, that a Russian Minister has lately pro- ought to be takn into consideration as soon as possible.
ceeded from St. Petersburg to Vienna for the purpose, All that has taken place during the last two or three years
it is supposed, of making some proposals either to the proves that no advantage is to be gained by attempting
Court of Vienna, or through the Court of Vienna to the to get rid of the question. However inconvenient and
Ottoman Court. The question, therefore, or rather the difficult it may be to deal with the question, it is one
which must be settled. Still, it ought not to take pre-
questions, which lam desirous of putting to my noble cedence of the more pressing measures which the present
friend are these :- -Ist, whether her Majesty's Govern- state of the country demands. I therefero beg to ask
ment are cognizant of any such propositions which have the noble earl at the head of the Government whether it
been made there—l mean, of any propositions which is true that her Majesty's Government intend to bring
tary reform under the consider-
have been made either to the Court of Vienna, or to the atltbr snobef teit ooftiPiealrliltmn
of Parliament before the esti-
Ottoman Court through the intervention of the Court of ma
Vienna ; and, secondly, whether, in the event of an mtnes for : the army an navy'
house
Y The Earl of ABERDEEN—In answer to the question
copy of those propositions being in the possession of her put by the noble earl, I have to inform him that it is the
Majesty's Government, my noble friend would have any intention of a noble lord, on Monday next, to bring for-
objection to lay that document, either in extenso or in ward a measure of Parliamentary reform in the House
substance, before Parliament ? of Commons. If I correctly understood the noble earl,
The Earl of CLARENDON—It is notorious, as my the objection he takes to that course of proceeding rests
noble friend has said, that Count Orloff has been sent
on the supposition of its interfering with those prepare.-
upon a special mission from St. Petersburg to Vienna. tions —those military and naval preparations—which the
I believe that he was not the bearer of that counter- present state of this country not only justifies but de-
project or answer to the terms of the Turkish Go- mands. Now, my lords, it will not practically have any
vernment to which I alluded the other night. Those such effect. The navy estimates were laid on the table
terms, or counter-terms were sent by the Aus- of the House of Commons yesterday. It was impossible,
trian chargo d'affaires from St. Petersburg to from the nature of these estimates, to appoint an earlier
day than next Friday for their consideration. On Friday,
Vienna, in reply to the communication which he had therefore, the navy estimates will be taken into consider".
been instructed to make to the Russian Govern- ation ; but the measure of Parliamentary reform, although
ment. I may as well mention in substance what the proposed on Monday, will not be proceeded with until
terms proposed by Russia were. The first was, that it after the consideration of the estimates, both for the
was indispensable that a Turkish plenipotentiary should army and navy. (Cheers.) The public business, there-
fore, will not suffer in consequence of the introduction
proceed either to St. Petersburg, or to the head quar- of the Reform Bill ; but her Majesty's Government have
ters of the Russian army, in order to negotiate a peace ; felt that their character is at stake and depends on the
secondly, that if he came to St. Petersburg the repro- introduction of that measure ; and, if it had been pos-
sentative of the Four Courts might have instructions sible to postpone it, we should have met with the just
to advise and concert with -the Turkish plenipoten- reprobation of Parliament and the country for taking
tiary, but the form of a conference was to be avoided ; that course. Noble lords seem to think that we are
thirdly, that there was to be some separate or independent actually at war. Now, I must say that, not only is that
act or protocol, defining clearly former or recent fir- not the case, but I for one deny, although it has been
mans of the Sultan, confirming or constituting the asserted in this house by various noble lords, that war
privileges and immunities of the Greek Church in the is inevitable. On the contrary, although I admit the
East. There was also an article to the effect that the case is such as to require ample preparation to meet the
principalities should be evacuated as soon as possible ; danger of war, yet Ido not abandon all hopes of main-
and, fourthly, it has provided that an arrangement taming peace. (Hear, hear.) Practically, therefore, my
should be come to with respect to affording asylum for lords, whatever my hopes or belief may be, they will
what were called " agitators and revolutionaries" not affect" the course of proceeding of the Government.
from different parts of the world. A conference was We shall make all preparation as if war were inevitable.
summoned by Count Buol at Vienna, to which that (Hear, hear.) My lords, war in itself is the cause of
counter-project was submitted. The terms were corn- many calamities to mankind ; but it is an additional
pared with those which had been previously approved misfortune that it should interfere with the progress of
by the Conference and transmitted to St. Petersburg, every social improvement, and with all those measures
and it was found they were totally at variance with which most conduce to the welfare of the country.
them. The conference, therefore, determined, and they (Hear, hear.) But I cannot admit that the mere appre-
recorded their determination in a protocol, that they hension of war is to prevent us from redeeming the
were unacceptable to the Sultan, and should not be pledge which we have given to Parliament and the coun-
transmitted to Constantinople. (Hear, hear.) That is try, and which we are bound and determined to fulfil.
the answer to my noble friend's question with respect to The Earl of DERBY—I have heard with regret the
the counter-project by Russia. With respect to the statement made by the noble earl at the head of the
other object of Count Orloff's mission, I beg to state
Government. I heard it with regret because it con-
that I have no official papers on the subject, and
that I am not sufficiently informed upon it to make tamed nothing which met the objection which I
any statement to your lordships with regard to understood the noble earl (Grey) urged against the
it. But I believe I may say this much, that that introduction of a measure of Parliamentary reform
negotiation of Count Orloff's, so far as I am informed, at the present moment. I did not understand the
had only reference to the relations and the proposed -
noble earl to object to the bringing forward of a mea-
relations between Russia and Austria ; and I believe
that the answer given to those proposals was such as sure of reform simply on the ground that its mere
was fitting should be given by an independent country, introduction would interfere with those military and
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH—I wish to put a naval preparations which the Government, as the execu-
question relating to a matter of fact. It is, whether tive power, is preparing ; but also, because if brought
her Majesty's Ministers have received from the Court of forward now, it will be introduced at a time when it is
Denmark or the Court of Sweden any communication important that all party feeling should be placed in abey-
of their intentions with respect to a neutrality or a modi- ance, and that all our attention should be directed to one
fled neutrality in the event of hostilities in the Baltic ? object, and one object only—namely, preparing for that
The Earl of CLARENDON—We have received war, which, I believe, the noble earl at the head of the
communications from both Sweden and Norway. They Government is the only man in the country who does
have announced to us their intention of preserving a not think imminent. (Hear, and laughter.) At such a
strict and perfect neutrality—(hear)—and they have moment it is that the Government, for the purpose—as
also sent to us a list of those ports and fortified places the noble earl says—of redeeming a pledge given to the
to which they will not admit the ships of war of the country under very different circumstances, seem bent
belligerents. We have sent an answer stating that we on running the risk of involving the House of Commons
approve the system of policy which they propose, and in a serious conflict, and placing parties in a position
the means by which they intend to carry it out, and which it is eminently for the advantage of the country
adding that we shall respect their neutrality. that they should not be forced to assume. (Hear.) The
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH—Have any excep- noble earl (Grey) announced that he placed no great
tions been taken by her Majesty's Government with confidence in her Majesty's present Government, and in
respect to the particular ports enumerated by Sweden ? that he very much resembles me—(a laugh)—but I,
I ask this question, inasmuch as I understand that nevertheless, concur with the noble earl in anxiously and
several of those ports are essential to the operations of a earnestly deprecating anything which would lead to the
fleet in the Baltic ; and Russia has ports there while we removal of Ministers at this moment. The noble earl
have none. expressed my sentiments when he described the incon-
The Earl of CLARENDON—No exception has been venience and danger arising from a change of Govern-
taken by us ; but great exception has been taken by ment ; it weakens the hands of the Executive, and
Russia to the system which Sweden has announced. throws uncertainty into the councils of the country, and,
The Earl of DESART.—So far as I can judge, it still therefore, however strong a partisan the noble earl at
appears from public report that there is some possibility the head of the Government may think me, and, how-
of peace. I do trust, however that may be, that Rus- ever diametrically I may be opposed to his policy,
sia is not to be permitted to gain another of those diplo- I can assure hint I desire to see no change of Ad-
matic victories by which she has acquired a greater ad- ministration now. (Hear, hear.) At all events,
dition of territory within the last century than she has I hope your lordships and the country will give
done by force of arms. If Russia is still willing to ne- me credit for desiring that all considerations of
gotiate and to accept such propositions as the Sultan party should be abandoned, and that we should unite
would have submitted to some time ago, let her do so ; in doing all that is required for the welfai-e and honour
but if that is not her intention, and if for a length of of the country. (Hear.) The noble earl (Grey) sug-
time Russia is permitted to retain the Black Sea as a mare Bested the possible effect which might be produced by
clausum, I can only say that you put powers into her the reform measure not being satisfactory to the country,
hands which have long been the source of contention, and pointed to consequences involving either a dissolu-
and out of which will probably originate fresh contention of Parliament or the resignation of Parliament or
tions, which may draw this country into a war which the resignation of the Ministry. But suppose the mea-
she may not be prepared to meet. I trust I shall be sure be satisfactory to the country—an extensive mea-
excused for offering these remarks ; but I feel strongly sure we are bound to presume it will be or it would not
that this should not be allowed to be a triumph instead be worth all the turmoil and trouble which will be
of a punishment to Russia, after the calamities which caused by it. Well, if it be satisfactory, and adopted
she has brought upon her subjects, the great obstruc- by Parliament, how, in such a case, could a Parliament
tions which she has occasioned to commerce, and the condemned by its own declaration continue to sit and
near embroilment in a war in which she has involved all advise the Crown, and carry on the business of the
Europe. (Hear, hear.) country ? (Hear.) Thus, whether the measure be re-
Earl FITZWILLIAM—Is the house to understand jetted or adopted, it will be productive of inconvenience,
that my noble friend has or has not any papers relative and must lead to the dismissal of the Commons at no
to the mission of Count Orloff to Vienna ? distant period. Now, I ask the Government whether—
The Earl of CLARENDON—I distinctly stated that setting party considerations aside—it will conduce to
I have no papers. As soon as I obtain any information the welfare of the country to have a dissolution of Par-
I shall lay it upon the table, using, of course, my own liament, either now or in the course of the present ses-
discretion as to how far it may be proper to publish sion ? Can it take place with due regard to the in-
papers which relate to matters that do not concern this terests and safety of the country ? The objection to the
country. At present. I have none. proceedings contemplated by her Majesty's Government
THE REFORM BILL. is not so much that it will prevent the introduction of
Earl GREY—In asking the question of the noble earl
the navy and army estimates as that it will divert the
attention of Parliament from the subject to which it
at the head of Her Majesty's Government of which I ought mainly to be directed, by exciting party feeling
gave notice last night, I have only a few words to say in when all ought to be acting in harmonious concert in
explanation of my reason for doing so. Your lordships promoting the defence of the country and preparing for
are aware from the votes that notice has been given in war. I concur with the noble earl (Grey) in deprecat-
the other House of Parliament that a bill upon the sub- ing the introductionof a metasaunlwoshiresis slurekntoow raise
party spirit
not
ject of Parliamentary reform is to be proposed on Mon- whatarr
courseirit
maya d excitebe
takePnariny the House of Commons by
day next, on behalf of the Government. That notice those who are not in the habit of giving their confidence
was given at the beginning of the session, but since then to the GoVernment. The noble earl and his colleagues
I have heard from persons of the most various political have certainly determined on throwing out a temptation
opinions, of the most conflicting views as to the propriety whichh it willa ireqtuhiere reategintattipounbolitc
jvoiinrtinue ti on
ar e
vs lest te—a —(d-
unanimous concurrence any further reform, such a unanimous concurrence in laugh)—namely, e
)t—o
lithrne eGYO'vernmel on a most vitagl proposition,
the opinion which I ventured to express to your lord- with respect to which defeat would be fatal. Many of
ships on the debate upon the address, that this is an in- those who may not dissent from the measure itself will
expedient time to bring forward a question of reform, at doubtless object to the tine and opportunity selected for
all events until those measures of national defenCe which its introduction, but I here venture frankly to express a
may be required by the possible outbreak of war are hope that, however reckless the conduct of the Govern-
completed,
that I really ment may be in throwing before the country such a
ment would postpone that notice unless they should be subject of agitation at such a moment, a sense of what
able to assure us that the probability of peace being dis• is due to the public interests and public welfare will
turbed was at au end, and that we might rely upon tran- prevent the opponents of the Government from falling
quillity being preserved. 'Y out lordships must be aware
after what you have heard to-night, that no such hope into the snare which it appears the noble earl and his
colleagues are offering to them. (Ironical cheers.) I
of preserving peace can be indued in. Indeed, what trust that nothing will be done —I trust the House of
the noble earl has told us this evening of the temper Commons will not afford the noble earl and his colleagues
which has been exhibited by Russia makes the probe- a chance of escaping from the difficulties of their present
bility of war even stronger than ever. Under these cir- position by rejecting the Reform Bill. However the
cumstances, therefore, I am anxious to know whether conduct of the Government may be deprecated and de-
the Government really mean to submit to Parliament nounced in introducing it, I hope the measure itself will
a measure for the alteration of the constitution of be received with the respect which is due to all commu-
the House of Commons before those other measures
nications addressed to Parliament by the Crown, and
which are essential to provide for the defence
that we, who are the opponents of the Government, will
of the country have been considered and dis- not be parties to any party division separating the two
posed of. I cannot help remarking to your lordships sides of the house at a moment when agreement between
that there is naturally great anxiety in the public mind them is most desirable, until the Government shall call
on this subject. Every one wishes to see the navy and upon us in a manner which it would be impossible to
army estimates and other measures brought forward, and evade to pronounce "Ay" or "No" on the principle of
especially that measure for extending the militia force, the measure. (Hear, hear.)
which is at present only applicable to England, to the The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—I heard an ob-
other divisions of the United Kingdom. (Rear, hear.) servation of great importance fall from the noble earl at
There is a very great objection to having the discussion the head of the Government. I understood the noble
upon those matters interfered with by another measure earl to say that not only are we not now at war, but also
of the nature to which I have referred ; and I beg to call that he by no means admitted war to be inevitable.
your attention to the fact that the delay may not be This is so different from what we beard on a former
confined merely to a single night, or even to the several evening, that I feel it necessary to ask the noble earl
nights occupied by an adjourned debate, but it may be a whether he is aware that at this moment any negotiations
delay of a much more serious character, because I pre. are going on to put an end to the state of hostilities and
some that so great a measure as one of Parliamentary
the warfare referred to in her Majesty's speech from the throne,
Government without
reform is not to be launched byand popularly believed to be prevailing in an important
the full intention of proceeding with the consideration of part of Europe.
it without unnecessary delay. Looking, however, at The Earl of ABERDEEN—A state of warfare exists
the great variety and conflict of opinionscountry, upon this sub- between Russia and the Porte; but I have yet to learn
ject which now prevail in time
it is possible that that this country is at war with any Power. I say
war
the Government may fail in proposing such a measure as may be, unfortunately, but too probable ; but I say it
is
will meet with the approbation of Parliament. Are we, not inevitable, and as long as peace remains I will not
then, in the midst of preparations for war, to have a
dissolution' of Parliament or a resignation of the present abandon the hope of maintaining it ; and, please God,
am not one of those who no effort shall be spared on my part to maintain it. _
_.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—Preciselty;e. dit
Ministry ? (Hear, hear.) I
profess any unbounded confidence in the present advisers is for that reason I repeat my question, which
the noble earl whether he
of her Majesty, but I own that I should look forward to earl has not answered. I ask
negotiations are on foot
their resignation at this moment with feelings of alard is aware at this moment, that any
lluded to in her
_h and
and apprehension. (Hear.) It would be impossible for for terminating the state of warfare alluded to
a change of Administration to take place without some se tone from that
disturbance of the regular march of the Government. liament—a speech very different in i
Majesty's speech from the throne o. n t.he opening of
It is is quite true that when the members of an Adminis- which the noble earl has addressed to your lordships to •
tration resign they continue to perform the functions night ?
question. The negotiations
of their respective offices until their successors The Earl of ABERDEN—I have no objection to
are appointed, and thus there is no actual interruption under consideration have
of the most necessary functions of the executive Govern- relating to the proposition last .
answer the noble marquis's
ment • but we also know that from the very day on unable to say at present. (Some laughter
which the resignation of her Majesty's advisers is ac- hereafter I amsn.
certainly come to a close at Vienna. What may arise
cepted until their successors are actually installed in Lord BOEPAnUMONT.—SureIy that is no answer.
office more than half of the real power of the Go- hear.) The question put by the noble marquis
vernment is destroyed. It is utterly impossible when from the p
the reins of power are about to pass from the hands of 1 --- I.l°
d(Hidear't relae solely to what was going on at Vienna,
one set of men to those of another—when it is uncer- I but its object was to ascertain whether we are now neg..
for peace anywhere. Plear.) I understood that
fain whether the measures in progress will not be entirely ,
ottations were completely closed, and, as we are
reversed— under such circumstances it is, I say, utterly 1 neg
tiating
Pledged to support the Sublime Porte—as 7 e are pledged
impossible that the GoTerumeut can he carried on with . P

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE.—I am sorry to
have fallen under the rebuke of the noble Lord Presi-
dent ; but he must excuse me for telling him that it is
not I, but he, who is ignorant of the usages of Parlia-
ment, if he thinks that at a time when it is doubtful
whether the country is at war or peace, and after the
Prime Minister has made a speech, it is irregular for a
member of either House of Parliament to rise in his
place and ask a question arising out of a gratuitous
assertion in that Minister's speech. (Hear.) I found no
fault with what the noble earl at the held of the Go-
vernment said, but I demanded an explanation. I
have now received a free and frank one. The
noble earl says fairly' that negotiations are closed.
There are none going on at St. Petersburg ; none, I
hope, at Constantinople ; and none anywhere that we
know of. That, I say, is a fair and clear answer, but my
question was a very pertinent one to put. What are
the facts of the case ? The noble earl at the head
of the Government alluded to the country as not being
in a state of war, and followed that up by saying he
hoped war was not inevitable, thus occasioning your
lordships' minds to jump—if I may use the expression—
to a conclusion very different from that to which we
were led by the course of the debate the other evening.
I maintain, then, that I was perfectly right in asking
the question I did, and, far from receiving the noble
earl's rebuke with the humility which, perhaps, he anti-
cipated, I contend that the course I have taken is in
conformity with the usage of Parliament--(hear)—and
if the present unfortunate state of things should con-
tinue, I shall not fail to ask for information from Minis-
ters of the Crown upon any points which seem to require
elucidation. I admit it to be desirable, both for the
purpose of convenience and for the sake of obtaining a
clear answer, that notice should be given of questions ;
but questions arising out of statements made by Minis-
ters of the Crown ought to be proposed immediately,
and I hope that, as long as Parliament maintains its in-
dependence of the Crown and Ministers, such questions
will continue to be put. (Hear.)
Earl GREY—I also rise to protest against the re-
buke which the noble earl has thought fit to administer
to me, my noble friend, and the house itself. The
noble earl said that our proceedings on the present
occasion were inconsistent with the dignity of the
house. For my part, I believe they are perfectly
regular, and that any proceedings in the Commons
House of Parliament with which we are made
acquainted by the printed votes laid upon their table
may properly be noticed in this house if any of your
lordships think that by doing so they can promote the
public welfare. I am not aware that in founding a
question on a notice in the Commons' paper I was guilty
of any irregularity. lam also unaware that the noble
baron near me (Lord Beaumont) committed any irregu-
larity. I concur in the expediency of not pressing the
Government to proceed further than they are prepared
to go. I assure the noble earl at the head of the Govern-
ment that I entirely concur with him in an earnest
desire for the preservation of peace ; and although the
Russian Minister has left our shores—although, as I
have heard, part of the Queen's Guards are ordered for
embarcation—and although every other symptom indi-
cates that we are on the eve of actual hostilities, yet I
heard with unfeigned satisfaction that the Government
still does not despair of the preservation of peace. As
far as I am concerned, nothing shall fall from my lips
which could in the least contribute to the embarrassment
of the Government, or prevent them from carrying on
negotiations or adopting measures by which they may
still think it possible to avert the calamities of war. My
only motive for putting the question which I proposed,
was a conviction—in no degree shaken by what fell
from the noble earl—that, from a false point of honour,
and in order to redeem a pledge, the Government are
wantonly and deliberately about to risk the welfare,
and, perhaps, the safety of the country by bringing for-
ward, at an imprudent moment, the question of which
they have given notice. (Hear, hear.)
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.)
RUSSIA AND TURKEY
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY gave notice that, o❑ Mon-
day, he should ask the noble lord the member for the
City of London a question relative to the Turkish papers,
commencing with those which were signed by Count
Buol. The hon. baronet took that opportunity of asking
whether the treaty of Unkiar Skelessi could be pro-
duced ?
Lord J. RUSSELL replied in the affirmative.
THAMES BRIDGES.

Mr. OLIVEIRA. gave notice that, on Thursday next,
he should move for a select committee to inquire into
the state and condition of the bridges over the Thames
in the metropolis ; to report whether they were adequate
to the present vastly increasing traffic ; whether it was
desirable to construct one or more bridges over the river,
and, if so, at what point or points ; whether it would
be desirable to provide out of local funds the means of
throwing open to the public the present toll•paying
bridges, and, if so, upon what terms such bridges could
be thrown open.