The Sun.
London, England, 1854-07-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JULY 21, 18154.

ments be withdrawn, and a-division immediately taken
up nn the—question -of whetirer--the- -dedaratten should
stand part'of the olale. He thought without a declara-
tion the bill would be useless.
The other amendments having been withdrawn,
Mr.,BILDYARD moved, after the word " paym'nt,'
to insert the words, "And have not knowingly given,
nor will give, any office, place, or app,intment to any
voter or any other petson' in consideration of such voter
having voted or refrained from voting at any election."
After a few words from Mr. ROBERT PALMER, the
committee divided on this amendment, when there ap-
peared-7-
. .
For -1 -

vtding Thai all eons an upon thermselveeeindiditee
after the teste.of tha w have tint ToLv_er,_
Sir F. KELLY preferred the %%was as tiley were.
Mr. CA.YLEY suggested that no person_ _should be ad-
mitted aa a candidate unless he had given two days' notice
in boroughs, and four days' notice in the counties to the re-
turning officer. The object of the bill was to lessen the
expenses, and it was notorious that the costliness of elec-
tions was caused principally by preparing for a sudden
contingency.
Mr. E. DENISON was afraid the proposal would only
lead to more contested elections, and to yet greater expense.
An HON. MEMBER reminded the committee that the
proposal would also curtail the privileges of the electors,
any one of whom had the right;of proposing :anybody he
pleased at the time of the nomination. (Hear.)
These suggestions were not persisted in.
Sir F. KELLY then proposed some verbal alterations in
the definition of "personal expenses," so as to make them
include all "reasonable" travelling and hotel expenses.
Mr. PERCY wished to know whether the expenses of
chairing could be considered as personal expenses. (Hear.)
Sir F. KELLY said they could certainly not, nor did
he see how they could be regarded as legal expenses at all.
He thought that chairing ought to be proLibited alto-
gether. (Hear.):;;_lle could speak feelingly, for he had on
two occasions sums to pay on this account so enormous
that if he were to mention them he should hardly be

Agail4t it• .• • 'it% ......... .... 128,,
Majortty..
The, amendrifent . Waki . acooYdiligly itj •
ROBERT 15A.L,Nitta roov.ed.tbf) additiOn to the
dectirstioni of these •words,.(` Nor have knowingly done,
or will do hereafter, tiny act contrary to the provisions
contained in eeetipps 2 and. 4 of this act." •
After a short conversation, the amendment was
agreed to.
-The committee 'then divided upon the question that
olausi 33, with the amended declaration, stand part of

the bill, when there appeared--=• . '
.„
.. .
The clause, together with the schedules, was agreed to. -_- -
. , For the. clause l3B- . Lord R. GROSVENOR. .: then brought up two new
etsistiashit she- ,‘ , ll9 :•: clauses, rendering the giving or receiving of travellingex-
' ,• •• ' Majority • ' hh.hh'lg• penses, or refreshment tickets, a misderneabour, punish-
,
'
.---Thasehause was accordingly aireed to. --- ' able in, the one case by a fine of 501., and in , the other by
e
The Citilatiett was directed to report progress, and . one of 40a.
His object was to put an end to a vicious sys-
...
the house resumed; -• ' •
Lod J. 'RUSSELL announced that the committee it stood entirely put down. : The expenses of .the last
Middlesex election had been no less than 30,0001., and
wou.d be 'resumed at six o'clock.- 7
.. , ‘; • ..-•.,-.- t
impossible
The ether, twelve o'clock. orders were. then nisposed where sums so largo were expended, it was not
to suspect the presence of. much unfair and improper in-
of, arid the_' sitting were-• suspended 'shortly before four tame,. •
I___ to _ .._.o'clock. . • Mr. J.. BALL said that some of the expenses , referred
The lionse resumed at six &clock. . . . ' to in the first clause were..legal, and others as clearly
SMOKE CONSUMING .BV 13AKERS. illegal. ... .
' State Mr. L. HEYW. ORM was in favour of the principle of
Lord D.: STUART begged.to :tide- tlae.SecreterY_of
the pecu- every voter paying his own expenses. Some few Might be
for the Herne Department whether, considering . .
liar diffichlties experienced by haletre in y
Act
needy that would he to give universal suffrage.
aeonehl mg with prevented from voting on this ground, but the way to re-
the .proveitions of the &Stokes-Nuisance-Prevention
whichhhias pis-IQ-reef liessicett andiiisai
tion on the Ist Of 'Atiguet next, 4. great difficulty in bringing voters to the poll—a distance
ELLIOT thought that in Scotland there would be
of-perhaps 15 or 20 miles—without an allowance for tra-
t°*iiiwtenarlehli4to° eglarant-, - - Mr.
any further time to peritotue engaged. in. that trade, and-
veiling expenses.
whether Government hr discovered any means for i the
the act of last session. came consumption of smoke lathe-victualling depute:Dents ?
Lord PlALMBitftoN:s444.
into opetticht en the Ist of August next, andalhpartiett
seteeeste .havehad fall time. to wake inquiries and prepa-
rations fclr complying with its provisions. . It however
rests with the Sectetaryof State- to determinehreach case
whether hhcetedinge are to be taken against any_particular
individu I, and my. noble 'ffierld ishtetite that•no- common
informer eapower to proc:Ood Under"the ' fier: It ii not my
Itil
intention: or desire to pre.sa, badly. on. app individuals or
any body of men, but my duty is only to see that the act
is borict,fittepiit into execution; • It-is' not for me to act as
--
aelheeetjher-or iirri fer of any particular invention, and there-
forel must declioe to mention any particular places where, .
any pa -jocular persons by whom, inventions have been '
eeessfully carried into effect, but I may say that I have .
been informed' that an inghnious.persoh',thwproprietor of
.szt
i h
Sir F. KELLY said the operation of theclause would be
vereandoparetssie
gal the smallest assisance
Lord Lyndhurst that reasonable
e.retlweereutildbryeaundyerpeebreseoln7itnelbyriiinige--
mg a voter to the poll, ,Theyhatrdatvheellinhgighexapuetlonosereityanodf
refreshments for
_ voterseceomm
illegal, either by the from a. distance were not
mulogn or statute law. On the
other hand, the Attorney-General had. given it as his
opinion that both these classes of expenditure were ab-
solutely illegal. Hence the necessity of settling what
reallywasthe law. (Hear, hear,) At present any expendi-
tore, however small, might be made the subject of a peti-
tion, and brought before a committee; and if the members
of that committee held with the Attorney-General, the sit-
ar.e ber would be uhseated. Another committee next
dionogrmmienetit decide, on the authority of Lord Lyndhurst,
that the election-4as a good one. (Hear.) He ,sincerely
•, rale areetngements by a'
great bitting
.estahl-s-rasht"
'has us
- - Mr. COBDEN said he had 'watched withenuch interest
loped that the house wouldsettle this question. (Cheers.)
mans ofhehich at a small cost he has almost completely
prevented the ebullition of smoke. There is no doubt, the proceedings of the hon., and learued.geneleman in
.his
therefore,. that the Pereens te.whom my, noble
,friend has
somewhat novel character of -reformer and purifier of' our
election proceedings ; but be should be sorry if the house
refertedtati find similar thCat.s' of prevention, and 'if any
was induced to affirm the proposition he had now laid down,
of" them will apply tome Twill tell 'them the riame of the
person,'
rality, that he had ever touched the question at all. (Hear.)
said, fcannot act as an advertiser of his invention: .
If they attempted to legislate with no better definition than
... .
- - THE RELIGIOUS CENSUS. •
. .. e• . reasonable and unreasonable expenses, they would be open-
, Mr.- A. PELLA-TT begged teeask the Secretary of State ing a door to every conceivable excess and , corruption on
for the Home Department -Whether any recent inquiry had the day of election. (Hear.) What was reasonable. for one
bean made into the accuracy ofthe•returnsofthe Registrar man, who could carry off two bottles of port wine without.
General, and whether, in consequence, any doubt existed as being the least excited, would be very unreasonable for an-
tolheir fairness; also, whether there was any reason for other weak-headed mar, who would be rolled in the dust
`suspecting- that the Disseuting -returns have. been exagge- by half a bottle. (Laughter.) And how would an election
rated, sohhat the number of attendants at.therEstablished committee decide what was reasonable for a thirsty man,
Church on the census Sunday have been made to appear and for one whohad not the least appetite for drink ? To
comparatively below the truth. . -- .legalise this definition of reasonable and unreasonable would
Lord PALMERSTON—I have made inquiries into the do more harm than if they never touched the question at
mat ter to which the hon. gentleman has referred, and I all. He was confident •the -bill would never pass with a
can say that the Government has no doubt of the- aecaracy clause affirming the legality of giving reasonable refresh-
of the return, as regards all the facts iastates-af wean the went on the polling-day. -• He was quite of opinion that
general litchi -of course in a return celleeted in, Oda a the question should be settled, but -he hoped that if candi-
number of places, and horn such au haduithhearietehof per- dates were allowed to pay for carriages an, I, refreshments,
sons, there may he inaccuracies to h. certain extent, but I the bill would never be permitted to pass that house.
believe t acre is no inaccuracy as to-the- geuerat result Sir J. WALSH concurred with the hon. member in
founded! on the facts. With, respect'.' to - inferences thinking that the law-on thesubjectshould be settled.
which may. be drawn frorit the facts; theee may=be some The ATTORNEY-GENERAL achnitteit• that it was a
doubts pertained, hitt as regardi the facts generally, I subject for regret that the decisions of courts cif law anti
have entire couridence in the reined; 'and! believe that of that horse were conflicting on the subject of treating,
the persons employed in, collecting, the return, pea formed In his opinion he believed that payments for refreshments
their duty diligently and faithfully, and took every pos'ible were within the Treating Act. With'regatd to the ques-
pains to assure thein*elyes that the return was 'as'acciirate tion of conveyances for bringing voters to the poll, no one
as the nature of such things will permit'
.. . - would be more satisfied than himself with a declaration of
. :
THE .VOTE. OF' CREDIT. :)2. - ' that house, that inhoroughe such a step was illegal.
•
. Mr. DISRAELI said the noble iord,the President of the Mr. WALPOLE said, supposing there was no corrupt
motive, he could not see any reason why a candidate
Council stated on a former evening.. that would to-day
should.' *
not, out of to a voter whorhad given him
lay on the table the estimate for the conduct of the war. It
would be convenient if it. were known when and in what his vote, pay those travelling expenses which that voter
manner, it is proposed to take the estimate, and-when it could not afford, (Hear, hear.) He would beg the corn-
will be laid on the table.
mittee to bear in mind that he. was supposing no corrupt
•
motive existed.' (Hears bear.) With regard to the queo
Lord I. RUSSELL—I am glad that this question has
tion of refreshment, be thought that if some limit—say,
been put 4 as my answer wilt perhaps spare some misappre-
for instance, no hum above s; per voter—were instituted,
hension. Her Majesty has ordered a message to be deli-
there would be no objection to refreshment being alto eel.
vered to this and the other Housetof-Parliamenton the sub-
Lord J. RUSSELL agreed with hon. gentlemen- that it
ject, and'l propose on Monday-to reskeas, is usual in time
was a very reasonable opinion which seemed to prevail in
of war, fora vote of credit. The amount ofthe vote will
the committee theta. as they. were now framing a law on
be three 'millions. Ido 'not' know 'whether -the estimate
thiesubject, candidates hod 'the. country generally.sheuld
will be laid on the table to-night, bat I believe it will be
be informed whetherethe.ettpenses: of travelling and re-
laid on the table to-morrow.; l'hitheehowever, now stated freshment were i le§elor-tilegid...,:. 'Upon considering this
_the suet for which the }rote will be asked; lime I believe
question his hottaand deemed friend the Attorney-General
[ that will be safficient withOulthe papers beihielakt oh thew
appeared to be qf opinion *4 bena-fide travelling expenses
table. t I.V.is -PrbPosett tiikst "ik;sl33-:4>f,t4ros.J4l l'i°n'h`ha" were not illegal; 'but,that. payment.for refte4huient came
be-voted purposes or •wp liver: • theta asked the
within the Trektink Act: Re (Lord '3.- Baltzell) • thought
other *Teeing whether the vote viOutch he taken intcom- that opinion at' least-expressed 'what the; law • ought to
mines of ways and means, and I may say that it-in not be. (Hear, hear.) There -appeared -to - him to be a
necessary that al.*, farther vote -thohld . betaken' %Com- wide difference - between travelling -and • refreshment
mines of ways and means, the .votesto which- the house expenses. A poor man, living some miles from a polling
has already come being'Sufficient: , .. -; -. place, might eery well say, and he would be justi-
Mr. DISRAELI—WiIe the message from the Crown fied in saying, "I cannot put such a value on my franchise
come down on Monday, or will it be considered on Monday. that I can afford, not only to lose my time, but to expend
Lord J. RUSSELL—No. I hope the message will come my money also.' 'He thought in each a case it was not
down to-morrow; but it will betaken into consideration desirable to dee/atet that candidates should not be at liberty
on Monday. . - to pay the travelling expenses, and he therefore could not
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. give his assent to the votnbefore the committee. But the
The orders of the day were read and postponed, with expenses of refreshment stood on a very different footing.
the view of proceeding with the committee ou•the Bribery That was an expehed which the voter would hereto defray
Bill. ' ' • • e • if he stopped at heti., and-meeting with his neighbours at
Lord SEYMPSUfharteked whether these 33 orders would the election, by joining-with them, he need not be put to
come on to-night ? Weida they be brought ott at a late any extra expense on account -of refreshment He (Lord
hour? It would be eethienienhto.many.naembersto know J. Russell) could not agree with the view of the right hon.
what orders would come on ,and what Wonhi•not. There gentleman opposite (Mr'. Walpole); 'who seemed to think
was the committee on the Metropolitan Sewers Bill, would that by limiting the-amount tobepaid- for refreshment to
that come On to-night? because some' explanation must be ' a small sum, such as 25., all diffieulty would'• be got over.
giVen preleiciiislY to going into ceromittee. ' - -..-- In many cases it, had' therefore been the practice not to
Lord J. RUSSELL said. ha could .not. state which were make any payment/at all—(hearhehbut if a sum up to which
coming on without going through the 39 orders. He could a candidate might go were natio-Winne act of Parliament,
say that if progress was made with the Bribeteeßill, at 11 ' then every voter, who-hull:informer cccasions never looked
o'clock he would begin togtettikoligb thb other bills on the for a farthing, would' coiiiiifer himself entitled to a pay-
paper. ment of 2s. (Hear.) It would be looked upon not as a
,
Mr. DISRAELI inquired whether it was the intention question of the candidata% generosity,' but: of the voters
of the Government to go on with-the West India Incum- rightsh Thisbe (LordsjAhnseell) thought would be an un-
bered Estates Bill, which steed On the paper? wise alteration in the exieting rule ; at the same time he
Sir G. GREY was understood to sat, that this being one thought the law as to-refreshmentought to be made more
of the bilis which had comae down from the House of Lords, clear, and he should havehno_ objection to making it clearer
. .
it would not be disposed of at present. i ' —by a declaration that payments for refreshments came
• • BRIBERY- -BILL, • - a s within the provision Of the act against illegal treating.'
...
The house then went ilato committee on this bill. Mr W. A. `WILKINtrON- sued-the only -grte{i'hit- on
which an allowance to voters could be defended was, 'flißt
Progress was resumed at the 34th clause. ', ,
without that a number of voters would be 'disfranchised, ;.
Sir F. KELLY said it had been suggestechthat no power but the true remedy 'was to increase the number of polling
was gihen for the payment of the election exeenseeef the booths.
election officer himself, and other 'expenses he Would be After a few words froni several hon. members,
put to, such as advertising, Sze. He proposed to provide The committee divided, when there appear etl—
for that by adding wordi tothe effect, " that-all reasonable For the clause • , 8G
expedites incurred by the election- officers under the. provi- Against it . 190
sions of the present act should form part of the election Majority ,
—lO4
expenses."
same
mesons-what-
OEa h Is
nTr
et .NwCKhatthwouegrhet.lhere,scelatmeleouegxhit,entsoesde„fine in The clause was accordingly rejecter!.
Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the committo would consent
thought 101.'ivai too smell a sum to pip to the tie
to take the aewainiug new clauses on the report. (No,
officer,: They' wanted 't Vetter Class' of- men than they wereelection no.) They hail thirty-eight'orderi of the day yet to dis-
-1 likely to get for that sum ; but he thou ht the election pose of, and as many of these ' orders related to bills of
fficer ought not to ba paid a per tentagegon all the bills'' imssiag, importance' he trusted the committee would accede
he allowed, but he rather. ought_ to bepaidta an iuierse to his proposal. (No; no.) Well, then, if the committee
would net they had better'goon with the bill. (Hear.)
ratio.
Mr. ST NHO.P.E moved the insertion of a clause lega-
After a few v/ords from Mr. VERNON, Mr. EGERTON, sing t.e.
~e issue
2' of refreshment tickets, not exceeding the
anti-hfr. V. Seism.; the latter of whom complained of the
value 0 e
vagtiebess taf thS clause, •• ' ' ' •. .f . each, to the voters at elections.
tbaettoted
hegreavewanspanklm,ic hemrbeearkfoafett,haes
drawn up with great care by some of the most eminent
Mr. W. WILLIAMS observed that the bill had been Government tnieentil L said
wEhLohe_
understood
der
it was called—but which was in reality a dinner---at every;
lawyers-in the house, the members for Suffolk, Midhurat, election. ' • ""
and Bath, and by the Attorney-General ;, and he believed The committee then divided, and the nriMbers were—
with an anxiety that it-should be effectivefor its purpose For the clause c ' ' 12-1
• Mr. ELLIOTT suggested that the charges of Against it the election
Lord 'TS BUSSE 61., ' said that there were sotu 14e2 clauses
—l6
officer should be subjected tothe revision of the-returning
yhet to be considered,. and some propositions tu be male en
officer. , . . .
,„ , . .
ttet
hilt,
e,en
u, ri
ni i
ie,
sipi
brit
t,
ii
ore
utte.ocd
andbie),:: He 8
reported
rpoiao,
that the
reotwshtedehde.
nti
el rowtu,nt
gentlemenhat
ie
fire
it,clausalabal,.tikes
report,
wereto,obr-etw,
chargedi
0)
arroiarpod:vae(wlrtli
(this
in
inhs..
Lied FIOTHAM thought theephohoWl.nathhoot-,---10/.
to the election olfieer ray each e opihiate was too lie tle,•and
' moved that it should be 1001. altogether.
Mi. HENLEY 'said therhed got beyond that part of
thee:rause; avid therefore that ainshdrnent cOulil not now „
day), at 12 o'clock-. I I
be.pet. He thought that any difference- between the can- After a few words from Mr. IRTON, which werainandible
dilate and the election officer should he decided by the
. in the g diary,
oi,linery tribunals of .the country: -There was- another Lord J. RUSSELL remarked, thatit, the bill were to
difficulty: -They had•defined a candidatote be, not a man
be reported, the lonise would order it to be reprinted.
who Wee proposed on thel day oflnomination,
e but ia man Mr. KNIGHTLEy moved that the ehairmando report
whd offered. himself :at an.yetinte behire the lection. A Progress, and ask leave to sit again.
men of iteave might offer ;himself ,who- was totally unable
pro,'
tthoipt,ar4.yiant,Qhierr?
Were the 101. e. apo .what. were they to do Lord A.: VANE said ha had a. very important clause in- 'in a
him ? case of trusted to him, and he 'thought that the. best coarse to bo
.
adopted, was that the! chairman should report progress,
L BURN observed other candidates to.pay, for-hseryed that any two gehtleinett he- ape ask leave to sit again.. They had been stating since
longing .countysth a minty or aborough might put upetegehitleman
se as o'clock
withenabie knowledee 'or ehOcurrence, and as the clause at noon, and it was very hard nitro hon. mem-
bers that they should be kept for so. long a time hpon this
'• • .
ig tO9d he -Would be compelled to pay 10t. to .the election bill. He should second the. motion.
Otfiter. • Mr. V. SMITH remarked that, in the course of the dire-
: Mr.-VERNON said, a gentleman canvassed a. borough, cession upon the last clhuse, it had been said that it was
sy for two days, and then finding-he had• no chance went I absolutely necessary to settle thiaquestion. Soma voted
for and some agaiost the clause, but everybody said it
eseal,..was. he to -pry the election officer ,10/., who would
have nothing whatever to do for him.
_. ; _ ,-
.. _
must be settledrand he should like to know whether any
Kr. V. SCULLY. sail if the definition of a candidate hon. gentleman had any clause which was to settle it. It
stoodasat present, such a person would undoubtedly have was• not fettled.-whether travelling expenses were legal or
ithepaythe 101. He
.did not think the expenses of the not; and it was necessary to. bring forward some clause.
'election; officer should be revised by the returning officer,- --.- SirF. KELL h' said there was a clause which had been
;al its that ease those two officers would be revising one printed these three days, which was calculated entirely to
ahhther's expenses, nor did he think that the candidate settle the question, and if they now reported the bill, the
l'shoulihbe obligee to resort to the ordinary tribunals, be- clause would he brought forward upon the report,
talpopnesofledeletoct'bioens
canatetbehendidate would be in the Power of the election Lord J. RUSSELL thought it impossible for him to
Eantghalautt.inaggride:thioe:si
officer. The proper and only fit -man to decide this ques- propose a clause upon the matter, riot knowing whether
etuxppeidnsee was the county court judge in the house would allow travelling expenses or refreshments;
assistant barrister in Ireland, but there but as soon as the house came to a decision, he should be
prejudice in the way of the adoption ready to propose a clause. He wished to go on with the
bill, sorts to be able-to send it up in conformity with the
this officer ought to be
Mr. L. HEYWORTH
entended that the expense of . resolutionof the House of Lords. The bill might be taken
borne bthe state.. It .was e
services and devoted his time gratuitously to the service of :
hard to call upoothe candidate to pay who volunteered his I
;much
altered, that
..,
Mr. NE WDEGATE wished, as the clams had been very
h that the bill should be reprinted.
penses of this officer should
the country. He would propose therefore that the ex- I The ATTORNEY-GENERAL wished to knove.whether
county rate, as the case might be.
be defrayed by the borough or ! it would be reprinted Until it had bean reported upon.
The CHAIRMAN sail that until the bill had been _
.. 17,.. . a:ddedssto the
re-
After sense further discussion the committee divided on
elr WALPOLE ' thought that the object of 'the hon.
ported,__. it could not be reprinted.
clause, when there appeared—
For the additi0n.........-,... words... member would be best attained by allowing the bill to be
now reported, because it could not be reprinted until it
Against it .. ' ................... .... - had been reported..
Majority ........................ 56 Lord J. RUSSELL said if the bill should not be re-
The.......................... —32
words were accordingly added to the clause printed by that time, he would not propose to consider it
34, as amended, should stand part of the bill, when there The committee again divided on the question that t clause tomorrow at 12 o'clock.
Lord GALWAY understood that the bill could not be
appeared— reprinted until it had been reported; but how was it that
For the clause •
' - 103 • the Oxford Bill had-been reprinted four or five times ?
Against it Mr. BRIGHT said he understood that bills must be
Mejority 56 sen. t up to the other house by the 25th instant, in confer-
The clause was nceordinely added to the hill . miry with an order made by that house.
.•• 4
! LT) h
Clause 35,1 providing the short, title of. the hill, was stoes e place? e • -
EYMOUR 'inquired when the third reading was
Agreed to without any discussion., .e . s . Lord J. RUSSELL ro osed that it should be taken
,Cause 35; the iuterprefation clause,- -led to Shilhe slight...sat:twelve o'clock on MUpudaPy. (Oh; oh.) /After the 25th
discussion as. to what elioirld coustifhte g 'Candidate, Viitti-.741.ity; the -
Lords vroUld -out- take. any-bill sent- up. 'He
power - to set . the- 'machinery ,of the 'election' oiheess.ie : nnist Say there was rile r...groubd fdr'this resohition of the
motion.
• • - • ' ' " .Lords—not to read any bill a'second tithe' afters the 25th
- .
3lr- HILDYARD suggested the insertion of words pro. j JUly--,in. the practice which Lad prevailed for some year