The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-22 00:00:00

the kingdom,-so that the -merchants might know what
were %he proposed reghlations, and might have an upper-
tunicy of making- any representations to the Government
which they might deem necessary. He did not feel, him-
self in the sliglicst degree bound to any proposal he had
made. Every point he had stated he should consider to
be subject to modification. The Government was desirous
of extending, in every possible way, facilities to the most
perfet freedom of trade which at the same time were con-
sistent with a due regard to the interests of the revenue
and df the fair trader. But, while that was the object in
framing these regulations, he for one thought—and he was
sure the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
cheqner would concur with him in the .sentiment—that it
would be one of the highest crimes by trimming and
sailing with the public mind in the hope of catching the
popular breeze, they were to consent to make- an inroad
and krea.ch upon a' revenue of 22,000,0001. a-year, over-
looking the amount of interests involved, or could for one
moment entertain a wish to do or be guilty of doing any-
thing that jeopardise the revenue of the country, or place
the fair trader in a disadvantageous position. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. gentleman concluded by moving _that a
' copy !of the Treasury minute of the 17th of August, 1852,
concerning the regulations of the Customs, and of the
reply' of the commissioner and also of the Treasury
minute of the 14th ef. April, 1853, relating to the same
subjeet, be laid on the table.
MITCHELL said that the statement of the hon.
gentleman, except in one very important respect, which he
should notice by and by, appeared to him to be exceed-
ingly satisfactory. He had met the just claims of the mer-
cantile interest in a fair and liberal manner. With regard
to the appointment and promotion of officers, he (Mr.
Mitchell) did not know whether he rightly understood his
hon. friend. Was he to understand that any officer, to
whatever branch he might have been originally appointed,
would have the door open to him, for good conduct, to rise
in his: profession ? He though the statement as to fines
and satisfaction was sufficiently clear, but when he found
that the officers had received for their share in one year
upwatds of 10,0001., and that Sir T. Fremantle admitted
the system had a tendency to make the officers too strict,
he was of opinion that, except in the case of the Coast-
guard! service, where
life was risked, some material altera-
tion should be adopted. , The fund should be from profits
on sales on account of the. Crown altogether. He was not
at all satisfied with respect ,to the system of ad vcdorem
dutiei ; and as to watches, a competent authority had
stated before the committee that 10s. each on gold, and ss.
on siller watches, without reference to their value, would be
sufficient for all purposes. The cheaper tribunals ought,
in his opinion, to be open in
•all cases where the duty in-.
volved was under 100/. and not, [as was proposed, where
duty and penalty came to that amount. H' e differed from
the Gbvernment altogether in the principle laid down with
respect to the bonded warehouse system, and thought that
it ought not to be compulsory to re-enter' goods in mere
cases pf transfer. As to the hours of attendance, it should
be recollected that practically half an hour was lost every
day to the merchants and traders, and that 30 years ago
the hours were from 6 o'clock till 6, while the eommittoe
recommended from 7 o'clock to 5, and the Government
adopted from 8 o'clock to 4. This was a great rostriction
on business. He begged to suggest that there ought to be
a great simplification of the system of entry with regard to
free goods, which at present entailed a loss on the mercan-
tile interest or London, taking the average fees on each
entry' t 7s. of about 25,0001. a-year, while for practical
or statistical purposes it was perfectly useless. With re-
spect to the case of snuggling, he must say he quite agreed
with the hon. gentleman as to Mr. Marchand's case ; but
he did not think that Mr. Travers had done more than say
that if Mr. Marchand's story was true he was a very ill-
used Man. Before he sat down he must observe, that the
hon. gentleman had left out of his bill the first recommen-
dation of the committee, that the constitution of the
Board of Customs should be changed. (Hear, hear.) As
it now stood, the board did not possess the confidence of
the pUblic. (Hear, hear.) The, right hon. gentleman the
other night said he was sure the house would not object to
extend the powers possessed by such, men as Sir. T. Fre-
mantle and Mr. Wood. He was one who very much ob-
jected' to do so. (Hear, hear.) He was sure • the house
would not forget that it was under the, administration of
Sir T: Fremantle that proceedings were instituted, unpre-
cedented in the history- of this country, against two great
dock ciompanies, possessing a capital of 5,000,0001. sterling.
(Hear; hear.) He believed he spoke the sense-of the com-
mercial world of London and of the empire when he said
the present board did not possess their confidence, and that
no Customs reform could be satisfactory till the constitu-
tion of the board was altered. , The instigator and adviser
of these proceedings was the solicitor of the board, who
had been an obscure attorney in the inland town of Tam-
worth, where he could not possibly have acquired any
knowledge of commercial affairs. He was first appointed
assistant-solicitor, but in three years, by the compulsory
retirement of the chief solicitor, he was advanced to the
office of that gentleman, and being, as he supposed, a vain,
conceited man, set to work to distinguish himself, and
induced the board to take those unconstitutional and
illegal proceedings. (Hear, hear.) As long as that gen-
tleman was solicitor to the-Board of Customs not a mer-
cantile man was safe in his transactions, and after the tri-
bute paid by the hon. gentleman and by the right hon.
gentleman the other night to the heads of this department
he said so much by way of protest, and lest it should be
supposed he acquiesced in that praise. No change that,
took place could be for the worse, and he trusted Govern-
ment would listen to the recommendations which had been
made to them, and that some gentleman who had been en-
gaged in mercantile life would be placed on the beard when
reconstituted.

____________
Mr. TURNER would leave the details of the plan to the
judgment of the various commercial associations of the
empire, but could. not refrain from thanking the hon. gen-
tleman and the Government for the great boon they had
conferred on Liverpool by giving it a local board, and thus
saving the merchants the delay and annoyance of references
to London. He also thanked them for giving jurisdiction
to the County Court in cases up to 1001., but thought the
penalty should not be included in that amount. The judge
' of the Liverpool County Court was a gentleman of great
ability, and was able to give satisfaction in cases of far
larger amount, if left to his decision.
Mr. WILLIAMS recommended the Government to ap-
point a member of that house to the board. He thought
the plan likely to do service, but nothing good could be
done till the Board of Customs was changed.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON expressed his satisfaction at the
measure introduced by the hon. gentleman opposite.
(Hear, hear.) The subject had been under the considera-
tion of the late Government, and ho knew that many of
the suggestions of the hon. gentleman, which had been en-
tertained by them, were calculated to facilitate business,
and to produce the greatest benefit to the trading com-
munity. With reference to the complaints of Mr. Mar-
chand, he was at the Treasury at the time they were
originally made, and, having given the subject full con-
sideration, he must say it had appeared to him to be about
as atrocious a case of smuggling as had ever existed—(hear)
—and he was surprised that it had imposed upon the
respectable gentlemen who appeared to have taken it up.
Upon the subject of the admission of free goods, great care
had to be taken lest in facilitating the operations of trade
the Board of Customs encouragesmuggling, to the detri-
ment of the revenue and the injury of the fair trader.
(Hear.) With reference to the Commissioners of Customs,
he was sure that everyone who had had to do with them,
and especially with Sir Thomas Fremantle, must bear tes-
timony to the great intelligence and the great energy of
that most estimable public officer, and the great zeal which
he displayed on every occasion to facilitate the operations
of trade as far as was consistent with a due regard to the
public revenue. (Hear.)'
Mr. WHALLEY complained that no drawbacks were
allowed to yachtsmen for wines, spirits, and things of that
sort, which they wished to take out of the country, the
consequence of which was that they went abroad to buy
those articles, and that to that extent the trade of this
country was a loser. He should be glad to find that some
portion of the zeal and ability which the hon. gentleman
had devoted to the subject generally, would be paid to this
small matter. With reference to the charges which had
been brought against the dock companies, he thought that
whatever there was to be regretted in that transaction,
arose from the nature of the service, and was not owing to
the gentlemen who administered the Customs department.
Mr. JOHN M'GREGOR thought that when it was con-
sidered that 22,000,0001. of the revenue of this country
was derived from articles of import, and that the collection
of this large amount was intrusted to men who were very
poorly paid for the services they performed, it was a mat-
ter of astonishment, considering the temptations which
prevailed, that there was not more dishonesty and fraud.
(Hear.) In France, Prussia, Holland, and the United
States, simplicity was the chief characteristic of the fiscal
regulations, and his own view with regard to the manage-
ment of the Customs department in this country was that
we ought to adopt something like the system which existed
there, and have one chief head or director, with a deputy
under him, dividing the whole management of the Customs
into different section;—one for foreign, another for home
trade and navigation, a warehouse and dock department,
and one for keeping the accounts. (Hear.) On the part
of his constituents, and he might say of the commercial
community generally; he expressed his thanks to the hon.
gentleman for the proposals he had made this evening to
facilitate the trade of the country. (Hear.)
'Cris CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was
in no respect necessary for him to enter upon a discussion
of the numerous points of detail—very important though
they were—which had been included in the very able
statement of his hon. friend. There were some of those
points with respect to which it would be much better for
hon. members to have the, opportunity of reading the mi-
nute of the Treasury before any further expression of
opinion' took place upon them ; but he wished to say one
word with regard to a topic which had been revived in this
discussion—revived, he must say, somewhat to his regret.
(Hear.) He did not think any advantage was to bo gained
by resuscitating the feelings that Were connected with the
controversy between the Board of Customs and the Dock
Companies. (Hear.) He thought they had fairly passed
by that controversy, and that the recollection of those
events was retained by none except for the purpose of
learning a lesson of caution for the future. As it was he
must regret that the hon. member for Bridport (Mr.
Mitchell) should take this occasion to pass a censure upon
the persons engaged in that proceeding. The hon. member
had had an opportunity of bringing out all the proceedings
before the committee ; and the matter was considered by
the committee, who had declined to entertain or to express
the views which the hon. member had thought proper now
to lay before the hOuse. The hon. member seemed to think
;
that what had been stated by his hon. friend (Mr. Wilson
that night, and what he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)imreien
had said on a former occasion, conveyed the . 1).. ~
that the intention of the Government was to give t the
Board Board of Customs a great extension of poweers. Now,
Board of Uus-
the first place, he had never mentioned th
and in the second
toms at all on the occasion referred to,
te hn idnagt i on
about t c'
badr
never Tho Fremantle. Ho was
NilracTo,hotthasouFgrhemheandtilde,rehfeeriin terms omficdomanmy
giving extended powers to
that he
supervision of that t
speaking of bringing insteheiB,ae.cdcouuhuatts
bac, thesai
(, board
N‘,lls under the
of economy, amid that h e thought bringing the accounts
believed the heads co,fith'e board were possessed' of the spi-
ritbefore the house would perhaps strengthen their hands in
°
enforcin, economy. (Hear, hoar.) The hon. gentleman the
member for Bridport complained of the omission from the
statement of his hon. friend of what related to the B_ (H
eed oeonf.
Customs. He quite agreed with the hon. gentleman,h inco ntshe.
view he took of the importance of that subject.
gsteietnuctieoten
tohfe tandemignoivsterarntiinogn
of
futthhoerietny was as of
system
vital
hear.) But the hon. gentleman was very greatlY•mistaekaern, if he supposed that the subject had been overlooked. The
fact that there had been two vacancies, in the board since
the accession to office of the
j ie
ze3seentMinistry, and that nei-
tchleaerr opfrotohfostehavtacathn
ecyjewthhoUght thil filled up, was a pretty
deration. But it was not is point worthy of consi-
a subject to be decided as a mere
departmental question, nor one to be decided in a day.
(Hear.) The hon. gentleman
appeared to think that the
ar. Mitchell) had very clear
and decisive views upon 1' e
fault of which he'
complained
now composed the *board. N
Exchequer) was of a contrary opinion. He was not of the
opinion that by changing •
lay with the individuals who
ow he (the Chancellor of the
individuals they would have
linY very treat hope of materially improving the system,

_ .
' and he did not think the individuals composing the -board
were very much to blame: These questrions,however—the
question whether men of mercantile experience should be
members of the board—whether any individual member of
the board was to sit in Parliament, and how, if he did,
his relations tb the chairman, while the chairman did not
sit in Parliament, were to be maintained—together with
the further and still more important question raised by the
hon. member • for Glasgow (Mr. John M`Gregor), whether
there was to be a board at all, or whether they ought to
concentrate the responsibility in the hands of a chief and
deputies—these were most important questions, which; in
his judgment—and he took to himself the responsibility of
not submitting' at once_ to Parliament a distinct plan on the
subject—required mature consideration on the part of _the
entire Government, and which he thought it would be
better to postpone until the pressure of the heavy business
now occupying the attention of the Governmentwas abated,
and then they would be able to give the subject the most
careful anddeliberate attention, with the view to the adop-
tion of that system which would best contribute to the se-
curity of the revenue and to the facility of the trade of the
country. (Hear, hear.) He begged the hon. gentleman to
believe that this question had not b. en neglected, and if it
had been postponed it was only because, being fully
aware -of its importance, the Government were desirous
of giving to it all the consideration it deserved. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. W. BROWN was glad to hear what the right hon.
gentleman had said about the constitution of the Board of
Customs, and should like to see one individual responsible
for the good management of the entire department. (Hear,
hear.). His constituents would be exceedingly. gratified by
the plan his hon. friend had propounded to-night, though
there might be some points of detail on which they would
be able to suggest improvements which would make the
whole plan still more desirable.
Mr. J. A. SMITH thanked the hon. gentleman for the
great boon which he had conferred upon the commerce of
England by this revision of the Customs regulations, and
said he knew enough of these details, of their difficulty and
intricacy, to be able to estimate properly the zeal and the
labour which the hon. gentleman must have beetowed in
mastering them as he showed he had done that. evening.
(Hear.) Some weeks ago he had been a member of a most
remarkable deputation which waited on the Chancellor of
the Exchequer to bring this subject under his notice, and
the right 11011. gentleman had most nobly redeemed "the
hopes he had held out to that deputation. (Haar.) With •
reference to the constitution of the Board of Customs, and
the _remarks which had been made on that subject b3# the
hon. member for Bridport (Mr. Mitchell), he believed that
gentleman had only expressed the opinion of a very large
majority of the commercial community of London. (Hear.)
They had felt most deeply upon this subject, and he did
not believe the hon. member had uttered one word which
would not be adopted by them. (Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY said the hon. gentleman had introduced
into his scheme the principle of a local tribunal for the
decision of cases, and it would contribute very much to
the satisfaction of all parties if these cases were heard
before the commissioners who had to give the decision.
He said this because he understood from the statement of
the hon. gentleman that evidence was to be taken and the
parties to be brought before one commissioner, who was
then to report to the board,. and the board were to decide.
It would be much more desirable, however, in his opinion,
if those persons had to decide the case who heard witnesses
afacndtiwonhothsaawt their ewia•ormineteanndoured.toHreeferhadmahne ofd ttotseh satis-
faction
to the County Courts, but he questioned very much the
propriety of sending such cases before the magistrates.
Mr. W. D. SEYMOUR regretted that any 13tori, member
should have gone out of his way to pass a censure upon the
gentleman who held the office of Solicitor of the Customs.
He could bear testimony to the private respectability of
that gentleman, and the great amount of ability and in-
formation which he possessed. He had been spoken of as
hanadohbescard thaturecoutnhe obscuritytryatt of a man at any period of hisey, but it was the first time he
life should be a bar to the possession of important offices.
Mr. Hamel was chosen to the office he held by the late Sir
R. Peel—whose solicitor he was—as the man best adapted
for the service. (Hear.) When there was no charge of
maladministration charged against him, he thought it was
rather hard-that he should be made the object bf animad-
version by any hon. member in that house.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON generally approvett—Tilt
measures which had been submitted to the house bithe
hon. Secretary to the Treasury, and he congratulated the'
house and the country most heartily on the changes that
were about to take place. (Hear, hear.) He had looked
with the greatest dissatisfaction for the last 30 years to
the way in which our Customs laws had been administerid,
(Hear, hear.) During that period they had been giving
increased facilities to the trade of the country by the re-
moval of duties and other remedial measures, while the
Board of Customs wore not merely adhering to the old
system, but adopting measures more restrictive than any
that existed during the war. (Hear, hear.) He could not
approve of the mode in which cases of seizure were to be
heard before the commissioners. The only way to stop
smuggling was to hear every case in open court, and
pronounce judgment so as to bring disgrace on the per-
sons engaged in it. (Hear, hoar.) It was his decided
opinion that proper men had not been selected for the ad-
ministration of the Customs ; but he hoped that would be
corrected, and was glad to hear that the sutject was,
under the consideration of the Government. (Hear, hearl;
He had heard a high eulogium passed upon Mr. Hamel. 41
He knew nothing of that gentleman, but what he heard
when he appeared as a witness before the committee, and k
he must say that while he concurred in what had peen
said as to the talents of Mr. Hamel, he did not think he had
discharged the functions' of his office in a way that con
dated to the public interests. (Hear, hear.) If the hon.
member who passed the eulogium would go to the minutes
of the committee,`he would there find what was the opi-
nion of the committee regarding him. He would have re-
ceived the severest censure that a committee could pass on
any individual, but was saved from that condemnation by
the vote of a single member. (Hear, hear.) He believed
that if the salary and, expenses of the solicitors had been
paid_ out of the Exchequer, and returns regularly made as
to what they were occasioned by, they would not have
heard of such a thing as that official filing 120 ex-offleios in
the manner he had done. (Hear )
Mr. GOULBURN said, his hon. friend had -never at-
tempted during the 30 gears of which he had spoken to
correct the grievances of which he complained, although
two bills on the subject of the Customs had passed while
he was a member of the house. He would, therefore, put
his 30 years' silence in opposition to his present statement.
The persons charged with the administration of the Cus-
toms occupied the highest positions as to private character,
and were wholly incapable of the charges preferred
against them. (Hear.) He concurred in what had been
said as to the ability with which the Secretary to the
Treasury had developed the views of the Government.
What he proposed to do would materially relieve trade,
and, if carried out *ith proper care, would not, he be-
lieved, interfere with the duo collection of the revenue.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. FORSTER was highly gratified with the state-
ment which had been made on the part of the Government.
Reference had been made to Mr. Hamel, and he must say
that that individual left a very bad impression on his mind,
and he believed on the minds of all the committee. The
hon. member for Sunderland (Mr. Seymour), however,
seemed to have a brotherly feeling for one of his own pro-
fession.

Mr. W.D.SEYMOUR wishedto explain that in what he
had said he was only influenced by a sense of duty.
.He
might state the fact also that Mr. rfamel waa paid `by
salary and not by fees.
The papers were then ordered to be printed.
PILOTAGE BILL.
Mr. CARDWELL, having presented two petitions in
favour of this measure from merchants, masters of vessels,
and others of Liverpool, moved that the house go into
committee on the bill.

Mr. TURNER moved, by way of amendment, that the
bill be referred to a select committee. The interests -at
stake, both as regarded the persons immediately connected,
in one way and another, with pilotage, and as regarded the
lives and property of the public, were so vast, and the
question itself was so complicated, that a select committee
.could alone properly investigate the subject. The hon.
gentleman had presented, indeed, petitions in favonr, of
this bill from certain merchants, masters of vessels„and
others of LiveTpool, but he was prepared to state that the
very large majority of the merchants of that port, and of
the masters and mates of vessels there, were decidedly
opposed to the measure as it now stood, and assuredly the
opinion of the port of joiverpool, so greatly exceeding in
business as it did the port of London, was entitled, on
such a matter, to the serious consideration of the house.
The underwriters at that port, men well qualified to give
their judgment on the subject, were also decidedly opposed
to the bill, and, indeed, it might be said that almost the
only persons connected with the trade of Liverpool who
advocated the measure were the masters and mates of the •
steam-vessels. He was ready to admit that the pilotage -
charges to which these vessels had been subjected in the
port of Liverpool were too heavy, but the Pilot Board
there had agreed to reduce those charges. The Pilot Board
of Liverpool was not composed of pilots, or of persons con•
nected with the pilots, but of merchants, whose obvious
interest it was to keep the pilots and their charges under
proper control. Whether and in what way the. com-
position of the local pilot boards might be improved was a
point which a select committee could efficiently consider.-
The centralising of the authority under the Board of Con-
trol seemed a most extraordinary thing, without any good
ground, and against the opinions of those who thought
that instead of 39,000 vessels going out of port without a
single loss, the probability would be they would have a
tremendous loss of life and property. The only objection
to the present system was, he 'believed, the charges, and
that point he Was quite willing to leave to the decission of
the Board of Trade. Ile hoped, therefore, the Govern-
ment would accede to the proposition he had made, or, if
not, that the parties whom he represented would be heard
before they proceeded further will the
Sir E. BERING supported the amendment, for if ever
there was a bill that required the strictest vestigation it
was a bill of this nature, which affected the great maritime
interests of this country as well as the vested interests of a most
useful class of individuals—the pilots of the United King.
doin. He thought there was not much difficulty in show-
ing that advantages were given by it to the Trinity Board
pilots over those of the Cinque Ports. By this bill it WWI
tocontinue to the former the same system th4t
nPro°P°wpsreci vailed in the port. of London—that was, to allow
every shipowner to pick and choose his own pilots; iII
other words.,
to perpetuate a system fraught with bribery
and jobbing beyond all measure ; while as to the Cinque
Ports the present system of rotation was preserved,
Th
next question was, that the Cinque Port pilots were bound
eto cruise night and day, and for that purpose to subscribe
a large sum to maintain
a boatsinali efficient state. For
that service they received
curtain sum for every pilot
put on board a vessel, and that fund, after providing for
the expenses of their boats, was divided among them ; but
to meet that 7iyusrit7g he
last found no provision in this bill.
(Hear.)
Now, the
the t2O years, of the whole num-
ber of vessels worked
by the misconduct of theu Ci up
river, only one had been lost
Cinque Port pilots. Ho hoped,
therefore, the hoUse pause before it interfered with
the rights they had so long enjoyed, and which were
tinned by act of Parliament. The was
next
question as to
the pilots' fund. Every pilot paid ss. each voyage to thu
fund, and from it their widows received annuities of 12
guineas each. A payment of 11. was also made on the
death of each pilot. Those payments were compulsory,
and the existing pilots had paid nearly 10,0001. There was
also a rate on ships that had not the British register, which
formed a sort of superannuation fund for the pilots. All
these funds were, without distinction, according to this
bill, placed under control of the Trinit3 -house. He thought
it unwise to give such powers to any body; and, although
he made no charge against the Trinity Board, it was diffi-
cult to reconcile many of their present regulations with
the principles of common justice, or he would almost say,
of common sense. As an illustration of that, he would
mention these facts :—lf he took a vessel from the port of
Londori to Plymouth, he might navigate it with his own
sailing-master and crew, without a pilot ; but if he went
to the coast of France, then his sailing-master was declared
incompetent, and he must take on board a pilot ; and that
was not on account of the distinction between the n
t coasting
trade and foreigrade, but the destination,—for although
he wind to caws with ballast, he must have a pilot ; yet
•
•