The Sun.
London, England, 1854-02-25 00:00:00

PRE- stymie- LON1)01I, -SA-TrIMAY EV-MIT-NG, rirsitrAwr 231 ago.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS-(iESTERDAY.)

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at
five o'clock. . .

The Bishop of LLANDAFF presented a petition from
Glamorganshire in favour of the establishment of reforma-
tory schools.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from a place in
Staffordshire praying for the institution of an university
in Wales.

Austria and Prussia. Those two powers, grateful for the
deference we have shown to their opinions, and as fully
alive as we are to the aggressive and mischievous policy of
Russia, are now with us. It is only this day that 17 have
heard that 25,000 fresh troops have been ordered by Austria
to the frontiers of its dominions. Then, we shall have pre-
pared a fleet in the Downs more powerful than has ever
left the shores of England. The French Government are
in precisely the same state of preparation. All this is a
sign of a conviction that war is inevitable. Every effort
has been exhausted whereby the evil might be averted.
We have brought to bear against Russia an amount of
moral and material power which no nation in Europe has
ever done before. This, my lords, is the result of six
months' forbearance and moderation. The facts are now
before the people of England, who in their judgments are
always just and reasonable, and to their judgment and
sense of justice we appeal. Accusations are brought against
us of credulity and connivance, to the dishonouring of
England, but there is no echo of those accusations from
the people of this country. But I now come to that part of
my noble friend's speech in which he says that we are not
yet in a state of war, because that declaration of war
which is usually made by Government has not yet been
made. My noble friend appears to labour under a feverish
state of anxiety on this point, and to be apprehensive
that deferring a declaration of war is an indication
on the part of the Government to remain at peace.
(Hear.) Now, I can relieve him to a certain extent on that
subject, because, although I am just as desirous for peace as
ever, and would be just as happy as ever if that peace were
attainable upon just and honest grounds, yet I must say
that I see no prospect of a just and honourable peace with
Russia, depending as it does upon the Emperor of that em-
pire, who might, with honour to himself, have relieved
Europe from the state of suspense and anxiety in which it
has been placed, and have saved it from all the horrors and
cruelties of war with which it is threatened. But he has
rejected all overtures of a pacific nature, and has added to
his original unreasonable demands requisitions that can-
not for a moment be entertained; requisitions showing
that his policy is incompatible with any termsof peace, and
holding out, indeed, a_ challenge to the whole of Europe.
My noble friend need not be under any apprehension that
that challenge will not be taken up ; but your lord-
ships must be well aware that we are not acting alone It
is not a quarrel between England and Russia alone. We
are acting with allies and for allies, and it would be of the
utmost importance, if we were not to take all the precau-
tions which the circumstances of the case render necessary,
or if we were to be induced by any sneer or reproach to
declare war, or to do anything which we did not consider
the actual state of things to require. (Hear, hear.) Sure
I am that your lordships will not require any statement to
be made by the Government which would be prejudicial to
the country ; and your lordships will fully understand that
Prussia and Austria have entitled themselves to our con-
fidence, and that it is our duty to a certain extent to con-
sult their wishes, and that it is our interest to know what
is their policy. We are also bound to consult, not only the
wishes, but the dignity of the Sultan of Turkey, by in-
forming him of the measures which we are about to take
in order to guard the independence and integrity of his em-
pire. We consequently have proposed to the Sultan a con-
vention, and until his assent has been given to it, it would
neither be to consult his dignity nor his independence if
we were to declare war. Therefore my noble friend need
not be under any alarm as to the declaration of war not
havingbeen yet announced to the two Houses of Parliament,
because he must know that no time has been lost and no in-
jury has been inflicted by the delay. In the meantime our
preparations have been carried on, and the fleets and armies
of England and of France will be in that state of complete.
ness calculated to carry out any war into which this coun-
try may be embarked. My noble friend has talked much
about what the object of the war should be. He has
advised your lordships to confine yourselves to the conside-
ration of what the object of the war should be. Now, I
think your lordships will consider it to bo a most impru-
dent course—nay, an impossible course, to engage your-
selves in the consideration of what is to be the result of a
war which has not yet been commenced. There are many
things which must depend upon the contingencies and
upon the proverbial uncertainties of war. There may be
much that is just and desirable to be attained, but which
may be utterly impracticable. It may be just and desi-
rable that none of the treaties now existing should be re-
newed. By-the-by, there has prevailed a great misappre-
hension about these treaties. I will take the treaty of
Kainardji. What is it that the Emperor of Russia quarrels
about in respect to that treaty ? He says that it does not
give him what he wants, and that it is ineffectual for its
purpose. It is only the 7th article on which ho rests his
claim, and what does he say? He says that the Sultan
promises by that article to protect the Christian religion
and all its churches throughout the Ottoman empire. I
think that it is a very proper pledge for a Mahomedan
Power to give to a Christian Power, but it extends no fur-
ther. That is marked in the treaty. The only right of
intervention possessed by Russia on behalf of the Greek
church was with respect to a Greek church which was at
that time being built in Constantinople. That, there-
fore, proves that the Emperor of Russia has no claims
beyond what are equally applicable to all other Christian
Powers. So much with regard to the treaty of Kainardji.
I may say the same with regard to the treaty of Balta
Liman in respect to the provinces. The Emperor of Russia
is not in possession of the Danubian Principalities by virtue
of that treaty, but in violation of the treaty. He is there
by right, or rather by the abuse of the right, of vicinage.
It may be desirable or just to take from Russia and restore
to other countries different portions of territory which in
various ways she has taken from those countries. It may
be very just and desirable to make Russia pay the cost of
the war ; but it is impossible that we can take any deci-
sion on any of these subjects without knowing in what
manner, with what skill, or with what success the war
' shall be conducted, and what will be the circumstances of
the Emperor of Russia at the time of the conclusion of the
war. Mr. Pitt's predilections for the French Royal family
—the Bourbons—wasvery strong; and nobody desired more
than he did, as the result of the war, that they should be
restored to the throne of their ancestors; and yet Mr Pitt,
notwithstanding he was constantly pressed to do so, never
would say that the restoration of the Bourbons was the
object of the war, or the ground on which peace was to be
concluded. (Hear.) In the same way your lordships cannot
come to any resolution as to how the peace should be made
durable, or in what manner Turkey should become a por-
tion of the great European family, so as to tend to make
that peace durable. For my own part, I think wo are on
the threshold of very momentous and important events,
and it would ill become the gravity of the circumstances
to adopt any resolution such as that suggested by the uolslo
lord. (Hear.) We are approaching, or we are already em-
barked in, that great question which has been long fore-
seen, and has been long postponed by all the able and clear
sighted statesmen of Europe, on account of the great em-
barrassments and the political and commercial dislocation
which it would produce. (Hear.) But a we are forced
into it, not by our own consent, I say unhesitatingly it
ought to be settled once for all. (Cheers.) I again repeat
that it is impossible for us at this moment to tell what the
result may be • but I can assure your lordships that it is
the purpose of every man who, directly or indirectly, will
take part in this war, and the purpose of her Majesty's
Government, so far as the course of events will permit, to
do that which is necessary for the future security and tran-
quillity of Europe—namely, to check the aggressive and
ambitious power of Russia ; to maintain the integrity of
the Ottoman empire; and to take solid guarantees in order
that Europe may not again be deprived of the great bless-
ings of peace. (Cheers.) But neither this country nor other
Christian Powers would properly fulfil the great duties
now devolving on them, nor consult the interests of the
Sultan himself, if they did not take this opportunity to se-
cure equal rights and equal justice to the Christian popu-
lation of Turkey, and to pave the way for that progress
and prosperity which Christian civilisation will effect in
that empire. (Loud cheers.)
The Earl of MORNINGTON was understood to blame
the Government for having, at one stage of the transactions
placed too great confidence in the assurances of Russia,
and thought that, in the face of certain notorious facts,
they ought to have required from that Power more distinct
and positive explanations. It was necessary, in his opi-
nion, in order to maintain the just balance of power in
Europe, to deprive Russia of that power which she exer-
cised, under the pretext of religious treaties, against the
independence of the Sultan. He had a great respect for
the Turkish character, and very little for the position of
the Greek and Christian population generally in the Turk-
ish dominions; but the way to improve that population
and to render them more moral was to let them see that all
Christian nations collectively in Europe were ready, should
they bo oppressed by the Thrks, to interest themselves in
their behalf for the sake of Christianity, but not for the
purpose of setting one sect against another.
Lord LYTTELTON entered into a lengthened review of
the early circumstances of the case, with the view of show-
ing that, in the first instance, Russia was not so much in
the wrong as she was generally thought to be; but she
afterwards put herself in the wrong, and he could not ap-
prove of the claims she now put forth. War, however,
was now inevitable ; it must be prosecuted vigorously, and
he rejoiced to find that the expense of it would be paid
year after year, without running the country into debt.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE would not trespass
long upon their lordships' time, but he rose to express the
satisfaction with which he bad listened to the able and
eloquent speech of the noble lord the Secretary for Foreign
Affairs. However much he might differ from the noble

lord with regard to the origin of-the dispute and the man-
ner in which the negotiations had been conducted, he re-
ceived with the utmost satisfaction the assurances that
her Majesty's Government were alive to the necessity of
prosecuting the war in a vigorous manner. He wished to
call the attention of their lordships to the fact, that there
never was a time when this country had sent out an armed
expedition without some communication or message from
the Crown to Parliament ; but on the present occasion no
such message or no such communication had been made,
although, in his opinion, it might have been done without
conveying one-fourth part of the information which had
been given in the speech of the noble lord. The case of
Mr. Pitt had been referred to as a precedent ; but the
truth was that Mr. Pitt never wont to war without a com-
munication being mad to Parliament ; and in 1803 Mr.
Addington came down to Parliament, and not only made a
communication to it, but framed an address by which the
sense of the house could be taken as to the expediency of
going to war. The address which was moved in the year
1803 might be adopted almost verbatim, at the present crisis,
by merely changing the word " France" to " Russia."
That address expressed a determination to resist the spirit
of encroachment, of ambition and aggression which then
actuated the Government of France. He would not on the
present occasion again revert to blue books, but he must
say that nothing had been advanced in the discussions
which had taken place which proved that this war might
not have been prevented. In the case of the political re-
fugees a firm and decided attitude had obtained a beneficial
result, but he could not help remembering that, in a debate
which took place in their lordships' house in the year 1850
on the subject of the political refugees, the noble lord now
at the head of the Government sneered at the appearance
of the British fleet in the Lovarit. It was very true that
on that occasion the fleets did not appear till the matter
was settled. The present case was similar to that ; and
there would never have been any need for the fleets to ap-
proach the coast on the present occasion, if it had not been
clearly understood that the Governments of England and
France would have acted together to repel the aggression
of Russia. lie had heard with pleasure the speech of his
noble friend, and he hoped that it would do much to coun-
teract the bad effect which it was impossible to conceal
from themselves had been occasioned by the extraordinary
position of the combined fleets. They heard they were in
the Bosphorus, and what were they waiting for? Why,
for explanations of their instructions. He had no right to
ask what those instructions had been, or what instructions
were to be given to them ' • but he must say that it was un-
fortunate that the admirals had been instructed to put
forth a threat which they could not execute, so that it turned
out to be nothing but a boastful menace. They sent—and
nobly was it done—Captain Drummond in a steamer to Se-
bastopol to say that the Russian fleet would not be allowed
to assail the Turkish coast, or to endanger the safety of the
Turkish fleet. Had they carried out this threat ? There
might have been professional reasons for the course that was
taken, but he must say that it was unfortunate to have
made a threat, and that—so susceptible as the nations of the
Dolt Aro--they should 400 tho combined soots rutin and

the Russian fleet come out and bonibard the port which
the Turks held. He trusted the speech of his noble friend
would go forth and counteract the effect of this. Every
moment lost was of great importance, for he considered
that decided action on the part of the fleets would have
produced a greater effect than the landing of 20,000 men
on the coast.

Earl GRANVILLE said that no apology was necessary
on the part of the noble lord for having again entered into
the present question, for the Secretary of State, some
nights ago, expressed that it was the desire of her Majesty's
Government that the discussion on this subject should be
of the most ample kind. He thought his noble friend
had had this wish gratified, as it had been shown that the
more the "the blue books were pottered over," and the
question discussed, the stronger and more general had the
opinion become of the wisdom, sagacity, and ability with
which his noble friend had conducted these difficult nego-
tiations. (Cheers.) The question had resolved itself into
these two accusations against the Government—that they
had been too inclined to go into war, and adopt reasons
for war which were no reasons for such a line of policy. He
would not argue now as to whether this was right or
wrong, but, whichever it might be, it found no response
either in this or the other house. As to the second accu-
sation, it was the very identical attack which every Oppo-
sition in every country of Europe concerned in this ques-
tion had made on their Governments—that they bad shown
weakness and vascillation. Every post confirmed the un-
popularity of Count Nesselrode for the course he had pur-
sued towards England and France. The same accusations
were made against the Government of France as against
that of England; so that they had the Oppositions bring-
ing against two Governments, which, he believed, had iu
an unexampled manner acted together in perfect confidence
for a disinterested object, the same accusation—some assert-
ing that they had been tee -eager to enter into war, and
others that they were too much inclined for peace, weak
and vascillating—lines of policy so opposite that they
could be mathematically shown to be impossible. The noble
earl, after saying that he did not consider the remarks
made by the Marquis of Clanricarde, as to the Govern-
ment having made no communication of their intentions,
justified by the facts of the case, regretted the charge that
the noble marquis had made reflecting on the character
of the navy employed in the Bosphorus, and felt that it
was one which, on reflection, the noble marquis would
feel that he was not justified in making. There was no
refusal on their part to do services required. There was
no want of spirit on their part, and they were prepared to
do all that might be demanded of them. (Hear, from the
Marquis of Clanricarde.) They had deemed it advisable,
and all professional men in this country agreed-with them,
that it would be better to take possession of- the Black Sea
by sending steamers from place to place, than by exposing
men-of-war to that which would, to use the expression of
one on board the fleet, place them exactly where the
Emperor of Russia would wish them to be for the next two
months. With reference to the present motion, the noble
earl said that it was either a vote of want of confidence in
the Government which, if it were he was sure the house
would unanimously reject, or it was a vote of confidence
which the Government did not want. He considered the
course pursued remarkable ; there might have been a rea-
son for it if a vote of want of confidence had been carried
or nearly so, but the contrary was the case, for neither in
this nor in the other house had any proposition been made
which conveyed a real censure of the Government. If the
noble lord had intended his motion in a favourable sense,
he (Earl Granville) was sure it would not produce such an
effect either in this country or throughout the whole of
Europe. The noble lord had talked of the discrepancy of
language, and the contrasts afforded by the two houses,
because, he said, in this strong opinions prevailed on peace
and war, while in the other patriotic appeals were being
made to carry on the war with spirit. He, as a very
humble member of the Government, protested against
such being the case. He felt; no enthusiasm about the
coming war, and ho was sure that there was no peer in
that house who would State. -that war was not a frightful
calamity, pregnant with evil and destructive of much '
good. But was it meant to bo asserted that when war
began they were not to appeal to the country to carry
it on with becoming spirit and energy? The noble lord
had quoted Pozzo di Borgo. He had also read the paper re-
ferred to, and, speaking from recollection, would say that
it proved the wisdom and policy pursued by the English
Government. He had also read another despatch in
which Pozzo di Borgo gave the reasons why England
could not go to war on the Eastern question. He said that
England would never succeed in combining with the other
European Powers, that her internal state was such as not
to admit of it; her trade and commerce were in a despair-
ing condition, that a Roman Catholic insurrection was
about to break out in Ireland ; and that her people were
clamouring for the repeal of the corn laws' which the
landlords and farmers would not grant. But what was
the state of England now? Owing to a course of legisla-
tion approved by the noble marquis, but he believed not
by the noble mover of the resolution, the result had been
one of the greatest prosperity both to the trade and com-
merce of this country. The revenue, instead of declining
quarter after quarter, had increased, and in last quarter
had amounted to 3,000,000/. With respect to the Irish,
instead of breaking out into insurrection, they were re-
ceiving the most gratifying accounts of their rushing to join
the British standard in a manner highly creditable to them.
He felt, moreover, as had been said by the noble earl (of
Aberdeen), that for the sake of promoting peace, not only
in this country, but mother parts of the world, the whole
force of the country should be put forth, and he for one
would not have the slightest doubt of success. A. great
deal of discussion had taken place as to whether science had
made as great progress in its application to warlike instru.-
ments as it had in the peaceful arts—he would not attempt
to decide thisnow—but it was very clear that all those in-
ventions which hadbeen so useful in the peaceful artswould
be brought to bear in a state of war. He could not believe,
while this country possessed within itself so vast a quan-
tity of the raw material which supplied the moving power
of steam, and that, having succeeded in applying it to na-
vigation, locomotion, and those manufactures by which
everything was made, from a pin to the most dangerous
implement of war, they would fail to avail themselves of it
In a time of war. All that' the-Oa-venni-era, required
was to have given to them that confidence which was declared
on a previous evening to be placed in them. Their re-
sponsibility would be great, but they would not shrink
from it, and he could answer for the noble earl, that, sup-
ported by his colleagues in prosecuting war, or in endeavour-
ing to procure peace, he would do so on the basis laid down by
that illustrious ntan Canning, and by Sir James Mackin-
tosh—upon the principles of respect for the faith of trea-
ties, respect for the faith of nations, respect for the) balance
of power, and, though last, not least, for the honour and
interest of this country.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE explained that he had
not thrown out the slightest insinuation as to the character
of the navy, but merely stated that the fleets were waiting
in the Bosphorus for explanations of their instructions.

Earl FITZWILLIAM assured his noble friend that he
was not ono who blamed the Government for their endea-
vours to procure peace, but rather because their endeavours
to obtain it had, judging from the result, been unsncessful
and misdirected. Without entering into any examination
of the blue-books, he would remind their lordships that some
sort of insinuation had been now and then thrown out, either
in that or the other House of Parliament, that at the com-
mencement, when the Russian ambassador appeared at
Constantinople there was not quite a sufficient degree
of prudence exercised by the gentleman who filled the
office of Charge d'Affaires of this country at Constan-
tinople. Prince Menschikoff arrived at Constantinople
about tho 7th of March. In consequence of his arri-
val, and, at the instance of the Grand Vizier, Colonel
Rose sent to the fleets to go to Vourla Bay. The re-
sult of that being known at the Russian Legation pro-
duced a total change in the character and conduct of Prince
Menschikoff, who before that had behaved in a most in-
sulting manner to the Porte ; but the change on the part
of the Russian Legation was so marked as to produce an
impression upon some of the Ministers of the Sultan that
it was not their intention to act in any other than a friendly
manner. What happened, however, when it become known
that the order to the fleet had been countermanded? Then
came back the insulting tone, the menace, and the frown.
The charge to which he thought the Government was ob-
noxious was, that they had failed in energy, not at the
termination but at the commencement of the negotiations.
With respect to the particular motion before the house, he
confessed that he entertained to a certain degree the objec-
tion which had been offered to it by the noble lord the
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and upon that ac-
count he proposed to move an amendment to the latter
part of the resolution. He agreed wit the Government
that it would not be expedient to point in detail to the
particulars at which they might think it desirable to
arrive ; but he did not admit that they should conceal
from Parliament what were the objects which they pro-
posed to themselves in allowing the country to be drawn
into a war. He wanted to know what we were going to
war for, and he wished to warn the Government against
their suffering to be infused into the minds of foreign nations
suspicions of what the objects of England were. He was
far more afraid of the wiles of Russia than of her power,
and he wished it to be stated as the opinion of one indivi-
dual member of their lordships' house what the object
ought to be for which we had gone to war. The common
law of Europe declared that no State should be allowed to
encroach upon the territories of a neighbour. It was that
common law which protected the weak from the strong, it
:
was that common law which had been invaded by the
Emperor of Russia, and it was that invasion of the com-
mon law of Europe which he thought it desirable that
that house should mark with its reprobation. (Hear, hear.)
When they were about to engage in war, they should de-
clare what was the cause which justified that war, and ho
7nias follows
should propose to substitute for the end of the resolution
words in which it would be impossible to suggest even the
trace of any selfish motive upon the part of England. The
a in, e, nrilhina et ni tt which hetherefore,prciohse opinion of the house that the
e
time has arrived when immediate and effectual steps ought
to be taken to vindicate the public law of Europe by repelling
the unprovoked aggression of Russia upon the territory of
the Sultan, and to obtain a durable and secure peace."
The duty of England was a groat one. He hoped that,
single-handed, England could contend with all the nations
of the earth. Her navy ought to be able to cope with
all the navies of the world, and, combined with France,
she ought to be able to crush them all. But when
he saw that the other Powers were combined with
England, and were' acting with her with a cordiality
which, perhaps, was not to have been expected, he could
entertain no doubt about the conclusion of the war. It

must be conduaea,—heWever, upon a great scale; they
must make uo little war; they must task the energies of
this country to the utmost. It was the duty of the Go-
vernment to make the people understand what was the
character and what might be the duration of the war, and
to teach them that they must not repine at the sacrifice of
pleasure or of life, but that the greater the early sacrifice
the more sure would be the speedy and successful termina-
tion to the war." (Hear, hear.)
Lord BE A.UMONT was quite satisfied with the result
of his motion, for it had elicited a very different speech
from his noble friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs
from those which he had heard lately in that house. The
object which he had proposed to himself by his resolution
had thus been attained, and ho saw uo necessity for pres-
sing' it upon the house. With the permission of their
lordships. therefore, he begged to withdraw his motion.
Earl FITZWILLIA.M objected to the withdrawal of
the motion, as he wished his amendment to be put.
The Earl ELLENBORO[JGH said, the motion could
not bo withdrawn if any one of their lordships objected to
the withdrawal. _ _

The Earl of CLARENDON said, the sense of the house
must then be taken on the original resolution.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that if the motion
were put for the purpose of enabling the noble earl to move
his amendment in order that the amendment might be ne-
gatived, the result that would be arrived at would be most
undesirable, for the house would then almost unanimously
declare that its object was not to have a durable peace.
Earl GREY auggeoted that the noble earl should consent

to the withdrawal of the motion, for he could not under-
stand why the noble earl should wish his amendment to be
placed on the journals as having been moved, and then not
persevered in.

Etrl FITZWILLIAM consented to adopt this sugges-
tion.

The original motion was accordingly withdrawn by Lord
BEAUMONT, and their lordships then ad journed at 25 minutes
to 10 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-(YESTERDAY.)

The SPEAKER took the chair shortly before four o'clock.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following bills were road a second time and ordered
to be committed :—Australian Royal Mail Steam Naviga-
tion Company; Horsmonden and Marden Roads ; Llynvi
Valley Railway ; York, Newcastle, and Berwick, York
and North Midland and Leeds Northern Railway Com-
panies Amalgamation.

-
At the same time he regretted the hon. member for bungar-
von (Mr. Maguire) had brought forward the subject :st atime
when the house was anxious to go into supply, and also with-
out having given due notice of it. When the returns moved
for by the hon. member for Londonderry were before the
house, they could then more satisfactorily enter upon the
subject, and he should be most anxious to give it his best
attention. (Hear, hear.)
Lord CLAUDE HAMILTON said the right hon. gen-
tleman (Mr. Baines) must be well aware that an indepen-
dent member had very few opportunities of bringing
forward such a subject, and that the honour-
able member for Dimgarvon had no other resource
left him to bring on the question as he had. He (Lord
C. Hamilton) knew of his own knowledge, that in one parish
alone, of Dublin, in one year, no less than 650 paupers were
sent over from England. (Hear, hear.) He maintained
that when cases of this kind occur, the house could not be
squeamish as to what was the " best time" for bringing it
on. (Hear, hear.)
The subject then dropped.

WA WITH RUSIA.
Sir J'.WALSH roseß for the purpose of calling the atten-
tion of the house to the inadequacy of the military esta-
blishments of the country to meet the exigencies of the war
into which we were about to enter. He regretted being
obliged to oppose the motion for going into committee of
supply, but he feared the Government had scarcely taken
into consideration the exigencies of the service for which
they were now called upon to provide funds. Considering
the magnitude of the subject and the ability of the speeches
a certain degree of languor appeared to pervade the debate
on the Eastern question, as if they had been discussing a
fail accompli. The conduct of the Government had been
passed over, and all seemed to join in a consideration of
what should be their future tone of conduct. Although
even the hon. member for the West Riding disapproved of
the war, and thought we might have taken a different
course, yet he found it difficult to say—seeing that they had
pledged themselves by a treaty with Turkey to support her

-that they were not bound in honour to go through with
the struggle in which they were engaged, and try, if pos-
sible, to bring it to a fortunate termination. They ought,
he thought, to endeavour in the first instance to measure
the proportions of the contest in which they were about to
enter, and to estimate the means they were about to em-
ploy to insure success. Let them not underrate the im-
portance of the contest. He had heard it said by some
hon. gentlemen that the power of Russia was exaggerated
—that her army existed only on paper—that her misman-
aged commissariat annihilated her power in the field—
that corruption demoralised her in every rank of society,
and that she was a sort of ideal adversary. That waEl
not the opinion of the Emperor Napoleon when he was
in the zenith of his power—he said that Russia was one
of the first order of powers in Europe, and the only coun-
try whose people by being converted into soldiers were
raised up in the social scale. What the seas surround-
ing England were to her the steppes and vast plains of
Russia, her ice-bound coasts and her rigorous climate,
were to her.. „(Hear hear.) As regarded her interior,,
Russia was perfectly safe from foreign invasion. The
greatest empire in the world was shipwrecked and dis-
organised in a vain attempt to cope with her. The war in
which they were about to embark was likely to be of the
most embarrassing character, and would change the politi-
cal complexion of the whole of Europe, in consequence of
the war which had supervened upon the original one. In-
surrections had taken place among the Greek subjects of
the Ottoman Porte, and what direction or what extent that
insurrection might be carried to was involved in obscurity.
But not only was the Greek population of Turkey in
Europe engaged in this insurrection, but a considerable
portion of the Christian population of Syria were also
in movement. These people had been often defeated and
put down, but they were turbulent, warlike, and capable
of occasioning great additional embarrassment. The natu-
ral tendency of these unhappy wars was to extend, and
it was utterly impossible to measure their extent or
the direction that in a short time they might take. The
policy of England for the last 15 or 20 years had been
based upon the assumption that war would never again
exist in the world, but that it would become tranquil-
lised by the enlightenment and progress of the age. Even
Mr. Sturge must admit that all those ideas must be swept
away. It was likely that for some time to come war would
be the normal condition of Europe. The moment a Euro-
pean war took place England must be the first to engage in
it. They were placed in an important position, and ought
not to be taken by surprise. It was, in his opinion, a
matter of necessity that England should not only be a great
naval, but a great military power, and she had every re-
quisite for becoming both. (Hear, hear.) Napoleon had
said, " With your 40,000 troops, you will never become
a great continental power." But why was that? Had
they not a population of upwards of 27,000,000, and all
the requisites for organising a large military foree ? It
appeared to him that they might become a great military
power, with a smaller number of troops, comparatively,
than any other nation on the face of the globe. They
ought to be able to transfer a military force wherever our
flag waved, and wherever a landing could be effected
they would form a base for military operations. The
army of Great Britain was not larger than that of Belgium.
Its strength was not greater than that of a proper
peace establishment for this country. In 1847-8 the num-
ber of men was 108,000 ; iu 1848-9, 113,000; and the
number now to be voted was only the same ; yet, in
1848-9, we were at peace, and now we were entering upon
war. In. 1852 the Duke of Wellington uttered these
warning words :—" You have ,never, my lords, had more
than enough of men in your army during the last 10
years than would suffice to relieve the sentries on duty at
their stations. Such has been your peace establishment
for the last ten years, during which you have been carrying
on war in all parts of the globe with a peace establishment
hardly sufficient to relieve your' sentries. And after ser-
vices abroad of 25 or 20 years —never less that 10—your
soldiers have had to serve at home five years. We have
never, in fact, ny lords, had a proper peace establishment
—that is the real truth !"
Mr. ALCOCK contended that the command of the Black
Sea would be decisive of the relations between this coun-
try, Russia, and Turkey. If once England should have
the ascendancy in the Euxine, there would be little diffi-
culty in compelling Russia to come to terms. It was much
to be regretted that the fleets of France and England had
not entered the Black Sea immediately after the slaughter
at Sinope.
Sir DE LACY EVANS impressed upon the Govern-
ment the necessity of diminishing the force of 47,000 of
all arnit note in the colonies, as involving an expenditure
and dissemination of the military strength of the country,
especially inopportune at a moment of impending war.
Mr. FRENCH thought the power. of Russia was greatly
overrated. She would never be foimd so formidable in
the field as she made herself to appear on paper. He feared
the pliability of the Earl of Aberdeen unfitted him to con-
duct the affairs of the country in such a crisis, and said
that the whole country should hail with joy the restora-
tion of Lord Palmerston to the Foreign-office in a Govern-
ment of which Lord John Russell should also be a member.
Mr. 1:1- A DWELL could not agree with Mr. French that
Government should have taken a bolder course. They
ought, as they had done, to have exhausted every chance
of preserving peace before plunging the country into war.
Lord J. RUSSELL intimated that, by delaying the
house from going into supply, hon. members were causing
additional delay in the preparations for more energetic
measures.

The home then went into committee of supply.
THE ARMY ESTIMATE.

Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said—l am sure the gallant
offices who addressed the house a short time ago, making
some observations on the distribution of troops, before the
house went into committee of supply, and the hon. baronet
who sat near him, and who objected to the amount of increased
cost in the present estimate, will not think me guilty of
any disrespect towards them in having waited until the
house had gone into committee before noticing the observa-
tions which they made. Before Idoso I will state—and I
will endeavour to do so as shortly as I can—the changes
which are embraced in the present estimate, stating at the
outset that the present estimate must not be looked to as
the whole estimate for the year. (Hear, hear.) The Go-
vernment thought it more consonant with their duty to
allow the house to discuss their policy, being a policy on
which any large increase of estimate would be necessarily
founded, before laying any each large increase before the
house. This, therefore, must be looked on as an estimate
formed in time of peace, but in anticipation of events
which might follow. (Hear, hear.) Now, it will be seen
that the proposed increase of men amounts, speaking in
round numbers, to 10,600 ; bat the increase really is rather
larger than that, owing to the reductions which have taken
place in some of the colonial corps, and particularly in the
Ceylon corps, in which a large reduction has been effected,
because it was found that in the course of years the re-
cruiting ground of the Ceylon Rifles did not afford a suffi-
ciently large population to .recruit the regiment ap to its

then establishment. Allowing for these reductions, we
may consider that the increase of British troops— guards
and infantry of the line—amount in round numbers to
11,000 men, and that the increase of cost will be
300,0001. The increase in the whole estimate, however,
will be balanced by very considerable reductions in the
non-effective departments of the service. (Hear,
bear.) There are some items of increase over which
I can have no control, as in the case of the Military
Asylum, the Hibernian School, and the hospitals at Chel-
sea, and Kilmainam, where the increase in the price of
provisions has of course had considerable effect. By the
constant application and vigilance of the military authori-
ties, there is a reduction of something like 33,0001. The
attention of the Government has for some time past been
systematically turned to the staff, and the reductions in
consequence have been considerable ; but in spite of that,
there has again this year been a reduction at Canada, the
Cape, Hong Kong, Nova Scotia, and the West Indies,
amounting to about 5,0001. Before I state the degree to
which the coneentration of troops has increased theio effec-
tive power of the army, I should like to mention
whatchanges have been made during the year in its
of
educationrior-
ganisation. (Hear, hear.)
Upon the subject
in the army, very considerable changes have been made
this year. (Cheers.) In the first place, the pay of the
schoolmasters has been put on an entirely different footing
from that on which it was heretofore. Hitherto the school-
masters
have been paid a very small fixed stipend, and
have had to trust for the rest of their receipts to what they
could get by fees from the men, their scholars. It was,
thought, as it turned out erroneously, that the effect of
that system would be, that, their pay depending on their
activity and their exertions, they would from motives of
interest keep up the numbers of their scholars. But it
was on experience th it this was not so. It was found that
the popularity of the schoolmaster, and the number of men
attending the school, depended far more on the interest
taken in it by the officers than on the degree of efficiency
in the schoolmaster; for of his efficiency the great majo.
rity of the men were not able to judge, whilst if they
found the officers of their regiment taking an interest
in the school, they were immediately stimulated into
attendance. The result was, that we had some of the
very best schoolmasters receiving the lowest rates of
remuneration, and, on the other hand, some of the worst
receiving the highest; and there were constant complaints
from those who considered themselves ill off, and requests
from them to be removed to bettor regiments, to regiments
where the attendance was better. Under these circum-
stances I proposed to Lord Ilardinge that the system, not
answering, should be changed, and that instead of the
faulty mode of payment then existing, there bould be
three fixed rates of pay, into which the fees should be
merged, applicable to three classes of schoolmasters. I
suggested this change, awl at tilt) 541110 time proposed that