The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-06 00:00:00

ing to make a remark respecting Mr. Hale, when loud cries
of " order " compelled him to resume his seat.
Lord D. STUART had heard what had fallen from the
noble lord the Secretary for the Home Department with
very great pleas are. He had understood him to say that
there was no evidence implicating any person whatever,
except Mr. Hale, who was under prosecution, and there-
fore it followed that all the statements which had been
made to implicate Kossuth in these proceedings, as if he
had been abusing the hospitality of this country by enter-
ing into unlawful designs and preparing to levy war on a
country with which we were at amity, were but baseless
fabrics and unfounded calumnies. (Hear, hear, and
cheers.) The accusation had gone out to the world that
large stores of ammunition had been discovered in a house
in the occupation of Kossuth, and the whole world was
called upon to execrate a man who, after having received
the hospitality of this country and being delivered from the
dangers to which he had been exposed, could so disgrace
himself. Now it turned out that all that wasan imagination,
a vile imagination of persons animated by some rancour
against Kossuth, who had always shown themselves
to be in the interest of Austria and Russia, and
who had persecuted that man by all the means in their
power because of his opposition to those governments in
bravely and nobly defending the constitution of his coun-
try. (Hear, and cheers.) Instead of waiting to hear what
the verdict in the case would be, those persons hastened,
in their malignant spite, to condemn Kossuth unheard,
and in order Co hold him up to detestation they assumed at
once that he was guilty, and referring to what might be
called the centre of the city of London, the rooms where
the municipal body of the city of London assembled, they
dared to point out that Guildhall was not far from the Old
Bailey. He (Lord Dudley Stuart) could not help saying,
that, after the statement they had heard completely excul-
pating Kossuth from these vile accusations, some circum-
stances or events might possibly occur which, in the . cad,
might demonstrate that if Guildhall were not far from the
Old Bailey, there was another place, called Printing-house-
square, which was still nearer to it. (Hear, hear.) Ho
thought that the declaration of the noble lord did him hon-
our. He was glad to find that her Majesty's Government
were not concerned in those proceedings which had been
attributed.. to them. It had been said, and he believed
, truly, that the noble lord the Secretary for the Home
Department had been the main cause, if not of saving the
life of the illustrious man to whom he (Lord Dudley
Stuart) had referred, at any rate of his being delivered
from captivity, and now enjoying liberty. (Hear.) He
knew that there was another Government, that of the
United States, which laid claim to this merit, and he ren-
dered full justice to the noble feeling which the American
Government and nation had displayed on that occasion,
but at the same time he believed that they might have
used what means they pleased, and have carried on what
negotiations they could, but that if it had not been for the
noble lord then at the head of the Foreign-office, those un-
fortunate patriots would still be detained in prison at
Kutayah. (Hear, hear.) It would, then, be a melancholy
spectacle, if afterwards in this country the noble lord were
to treat those refugees in a manner worse than the Turkish.
Government had ever treated them. The Turkish Govern-
ment had detained them in captivity to please Austria and
Russia, but it had not done so of its own free will, '.and its
proceedings had been perfectly open ; when its prisoners
went out to take exercise they were followed by soldiers ;
they were tricked by no men in disguise, nor by the police
of the Government. He (Lord Dudley Stuart) said that it
was a nobler course to take to tell these men that they
were prisoners, and to treat them as such, than to tell them
that they enjoyed all the rights and privileges of the sub-
jects of this country, while at the same time they were
basely watched by persons in disguise. (Hear, hear.) He
thanked the noble lord for his declaration, and if he re-
gretted anything it was that the noble lord had-not taken an
earlier opportunity of making that declaration.
Mr. BRIGHT—It appears, I think, from what has taken
place, that the noble lord at the head of the Home Depart-
ment has been engaged in that undignified employment of
hunting for a mare's nest. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) I
agree with my hon. friend the member for Finsbury as to
the paltriness and shabbiness of these proceedings, even as
regards Mr. Hale, but I do not think that the case with
regard to Kossuth is of the same character, nor that it
ought to be regarded by the house in the same light. (Hear,
hear.) One is a simple affair of a mischievous police inter-
ference, which turns out to be nothing at all, and is of
a very different character from that which has induced
me to advert to this subject. The noble lord says that ho
has no evidence whatever on which to found any charge in
connection with these transactions, except against Mr.
Hale. How far he has any grounds against Mr. Hale we
have heard, for it appears that the noble lord would be
glad to get out of the mess he is in, if he did not think that
it would be undignified for the Government to give up the
prosecution. But the noble lord knows the impression
which has been created on this question; first, by the
statements in the newspapers, and afterwards by the noble
lord's own statement in this house. Ido not charge the
noble lord with having made any direct accusation against
Kossuth ; but the house will recollect that in all his for-
mer observations the noble lord studiously avoided saying
anything that could be quoted as clearing the character of
Kossuth, and he left the statements of the Times news-
paper to have their full effect upon the world, although at
the time he was in possession of precisely the same know-
ledge of the case that he was now, and had the power of
clearing the character of Kossuth. (Hear, hear.) The
Times has been referred to, as it must be with regard to
this matter, and I shall make an observation on that jour-
nal. The Times newspaper, I presume, we all know is a
great power in a mask--(hear hear, hear) ;—we do not see
the hand that writes those articles ; but there is no man in
London calling himself a gentleman who durst have put
his signature to the article relating to Kossuth. (Hear,
hear, and loud cheers.) There is a gentleman, a member of
this house, who is not now present, but if he were present
I would tell him what I say now, that he durst not—l
speak of one who is notoriously connected with that paper
—I say he durst not have put his name to that article in
which those charges were brought against Kossuth. (Hear,
hear, and murmurs.) I can tell the Times that it was pre-
cisely by conduct like this, by which scandalous and lying
charges were brought against honourable men, that the
press of France lost all character with the people of France,
and that during the existence of the Republic the middle
class and all the people of Paris looked on with disregard
and almost with pleasure while the papers, one after ano-
ther, were brought under the penalties of the law, and,,
finally, they looked on without any opposition, and appa-
rently without any discontent, when first of all newspaper
writers were forced to put their names to every article, and
afterwards three-fourths of all the papers were suppressed.
(Hear.) I azn not particularly thin-skinned—l do not com-
plain as caring one straw about it; but by way of illustration ,
only, I may mention that the Times of this morning says it is
glad that I had the decency—l speak from memory—not to •
appear before Lord Clarendon yesterday with a deputation
which waited on the noble Lord to request that he would con-
sen t to the introduction of a certain clause into the treaty
with the United States, when it is known that the United.
States Legislature was willing to have such a clause intro- ,
duced. The Times says it is well I had the decency not to go
with that deputation, because I had lately been defending
the manufacture of rockets and other warlike stores which
have boon so much talked about. Now if Mr. Anybody—
I do not know his name—who directs that newspaper, or
who wrote that article, were to come before the public, do
you think there is any man who walks about the-West-end
of London, and calls himself a gentleman, who would have
written that article, and would have attached his name to
it ? ( Hear, hear.) Well, I say it is a cowardly thing, that
a statement like this should be made ' • and it is doubly in-
famous, when these statements are to be made to under-
mine and to destroy the character of a man suffering under
misfortune, an exile from his country, who is trusted by
millions of his countrymen, and who, though living in
adversity, is yet buoyed up by the hope that some day or
other ho may be able to do something for the liberty of his
country. (Hear, and cheers.) I say it is doubly infamous
for a powerful organ of the press to attack a man of that
character without any ground of fact on which to found its
statement, and thus attempt to destroy his character and
reputation, and influence. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord
has admitted two things. He has admitted that there is
no charge against Kossuth or against any other person, ex-
cept Mr. Hale, and he stated the other night that so long
as he had been connected with the Home-office, now about
four months, the practice of opening letters had not been re-
sorted to, and I think he entirely and satisfactorily settled
that question. (Hear, hear.) But there is another point
which has been adverted to, and that is the system of
espionage. Now the noble lord, on the 7th of February,
1850, in speaking of the detention of the Hungarians in
Turkey, said that the Turkish Government had undertaken
to confine them for a limited time under surveillance, a
word to which there was no corresponding term in the
English language. Now I wish to ask him this, whether
it be true, as it has been stated, apparently on good au-
thority, that some policemen, or some persons acting as
such, are charged to watch and report upon whatever they
may observe about Kossuth's house ? (Hear, hear.) I want
to ask the noble lord whether, if that be so, those proceed-
ings have been taken by the authority of the Home-office,
and whether the expenses connected with them are de-
frayed by the Government or out of any metropolitan rates,
or whether they are defrayed by the Austrian Government
or embassy. (Hear, hear.) I wish that he would clear that
matter up. I believe those proceedings to be without the
slightest justification. I think what has been stated lately
in the papers has caused an unpleasant feeling with regard
to the Government and our whole system, that it is not so
above board as we pretend it is ; and that although we
talk a great deal, and mouth about our system and our
hospitality, that we have shown to exiles we are doing pre-
cisely what is done in many parts of the continent of
Europe at this moment. If the noble lord will give some
contradiction to that statement, as he has done to others,
there will be no member who will be more happy than
myself to hear it. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. OTWAY said that the noble lord the member for
Tiverton had twitted the honourable member for Man-
chester the other night for his gross ignorance of the con-
stitution of this country, and had said that if there were
grounds for suspecting any foreigner or Englishman of
being engaged in proceedings hostile to any foreign Govern-
ment he would have been justified in taking those pro-
ceedings with regard to M. Kossuth, which had been
attributed to him. [Lord Palmerston : I did not say that.]
The noble lord had not always entertained such sentiments.
for it was not long ago that he had received at his official
residence in Downing-street a deputation from Islington
which presented an address couched in language somewhat
strong as regarded a Sovereign with whom we were on
terms of amity, and that deputation had resulted in the
retirement of the noble lord from the Cabinet of which he
was at that time a member. For the noble lord now to
turn round suddenly, and to speak of Kossuth and the
other refugees in the tone which he had used, was a cir-
cumstance which must cause regret to the admirers of the
noble lord.

to law, they were bound to ascertain whether there was or
was not any ground for that suspicion. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT : I want to repeat my question. The
noble lord has merely told us what everybody knows.
Now, I want to ask the noble lord this question : has he,
in his office, or by directions through his office, has any
police magistrate or commissioner given any special
directions that policemen shall watch the house and pro-
ceedings of Kossuth in this metropolis. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALM.ERSTON—I have given no special direc-
tions with regard to Kossuth, but it is the general duty of
the police, if they have any suspicion about any person, as
they probably had in this case, to ascertain the facts upon
which a charge may be substantiated, or may be otherwise
disposed of. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COBDEN then rose to address some further ques-
tion to the Home Secretary, but
The SPEAKER said that the noble lord the member
for Tiverton had already spoken twice, and was not en-
titled to speak again on this question.
The subject then dropped for a few moments, and was
succeeded by a brief interlude about
MINISTERS' MONEY.
Mr. FAGAN begged to ask the right hon. gentleman
the Secretary for Ireland whether a measure on the sub-
ject of ministers' money would be brought forward during
the present session, and, if so, whether it would be intro-
duced before or after Whitsuntide ?
Sir J. YOUNG replied that the question of ministers'
money was one which had occupied the attention of the
Government for a long time past. The draft of a bill had
been prepared, but he did not wish to present it to the
house without making a preliminary statement. As soon
as he could get a day for the purpose he would introduce
the bill. (Hear.)
Mr. MAGUIRE said that this question had been
pitched about from one Government to another, and he
should be glad to be informed whether it was really the
intention of the Government to bring in a measure on the
subject this session?

Sir J. YOUNG could only reply by asking the hon.
member what ground (he had for doubting his (Sir J.
Young's) word ?

TheifOrmer subject was then resumed by
Mr. COBDEN—I suppose, sir, you are the authority
without appeal on all points of order, but if it be the rule
of the house that the Minister for the Home Department
can only be allowed to answer one question on such an oc-
casion and on such a subject as we have been discussing, I
think it would be well to consider whether it might not
be well to relax it in order to promote the dispatch of busi-
ness. If, however, the noble lord, the Home Secretary,
cannot answer the question I wish to put, probably the
noble lord the member for London (Lord J. Russell) can.
I wish to impress upon the house that we are not here
dealing with the ordinary case of an ordinary person. We
are dealing with a man who was long engaged in main-
taining in his own country the legality of the constitution
of that country, and he was supported by the whole body,
not of the poorer classes merely, but of the whole of the
aristocracy.. I say that when such a man comes to this
country, having held that distinguished post of honour,
his case is not that of an ordinary refugee, but it is that of
a man placed under the safeguard of this country, the in-
cidents of whose life are minutely watched by the world,
and will be as minutely recorded in the history of the
times—and as he is treated by us will honour or discredit
attach to us in reference to him. (Hear, hear.) When I
first read of this matter, and when I first read the state-
ment in the Timm, I thought it my duty to call on M.
Kossuth and ask him if there was any foundation for that
statement, and he gave me his word as a man of honour
that he had no more concern with the transactions re-
ferred to by the writer in that paper than had the
Speaker of the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) It was
true, he said, he had recommended a foreign refugee (one
who had not done him much credit—(hear)—to Mr.
Hale for employment, but he had no connexion with
Mr. Hale, or with the manufacture carried on by him. He
was invited to call on Mr. Hale to go over his factory as I
might have been, and as I have been invited to go over Mr.
Colt's factory ; and I might as well be charged with being
connected with Mr. Colt on that ground, as M. Kossuth
was charged with being connected with Mr. Hale. And
with regard to recommending a man for employment, M.
Kossuth has numerous unfortunate refugees constantly
calling upon him to aid them in obtaining employment,
and I am speaking within the mark when I say I have had
at least a dozen applications from M. Kossuth to assist his
countrymen in that way. This is the whole basis of the
charge. Some prying individual found that a Hungarian
was working at Mr. Halo's, and because M. Kossuth re-
commended him he connected that gentleman with the
rocket manufacture carried on by Mr. Hale. Now, I
think it would not have been below the dignity of the
Home Secretary, if he had given the opportunity to M.
Kossuth to clear himself. Ido not think the ex-Governor
of Hungary is so far below the dignity of the Home Secre-
tary of England as to make such a course impossible. And
if the noble lord had done so, if instead of sending police-
men to watch M. Kossuth's house, and dog him about, he
had taken means to allow that gentleman to explain, and
if the noble lord had. thus obtained, as he would have done,
M. Kossuth's word of honour, that he had no connection
with anything of the kind charged against him, that would
have been sufficient—for he apprehended M. Kossuth was
as much entitled to credence as any member of the Orleans
family visiting our Court. I make no distinctions, and as
regards M. Kossuth I think he is as much entitled to re-
spect and honour as any member of the Orleans family,
who are habitually received at Windsor. (Hear.) I make
no complaint of the hospitality that is shown to the Or-
leans family ; but I say that it would be disgraceful to
any man in this country, and more especially to any mem-
ber of this house, if he did not vindicate the right to hospi-
tality of this country, on behalf of those who carry with
them the good-will of the mass of their own countrymen,
which is the case with M. Kossuth, and if any one is al-
-1 lowed to dog the steps of illustrious refugees, and it is
found out, we are bound to visit it with our rebrobation,
and public opinion will do the same. I have seen M. Kos-
suth, and have advised with him. I told him—" You
live under the same law as I do, but if you ask me what
the law of England is, I cannot tell you, for at any mo-
ment some old law may be exhumed for a particular occa-
sion, as has been done now." I advised him to put him-
self under the advice of a shrewd lawyer, and I do not
believe he will be caught violating the law of the country,
for which he has too much respect. Tho question I want
to put to the noble lord is, whether any communication
has been made to the magistrates, or the police authorities
with reference to any proceedings for watching the house
of M. Louis Kossuth. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—Before I answer the question which
the hon. gentleman has put, I must advert to the former
part of his speech, because it is of great importance that
we should have some notion as to what is the policy of this
country towards these and other refugees ; and I quite
agree with the hon. gentleman when he says that we ought
to apply the same rule to all refugees, and I care little
what may be their rank or station. It may be a prince of
high lineage who maintains extreme doctrines with regard
to absolute monarchy, or it may be a person of humble
station who holds extreme notions with regard to republi-
can institutions ; I care not which it may be, the rule
ought to be the same. (Hear, hear.) Then what is that
rule ? It is not so very obscure in its general principle.
It is founded in the first place on the law of England, and
in the second place it is founded on that law in relation to
the great international law which governs the intercourse
of nations. The law of England allows refugees, from
whatever cause they may have suffered, or by whatever
power they may have been proscribed, to come to this
country and live undisturbed. This is the general law,
and in accordance with that law many persons of various
ranks have of late years taken refuge here ; and that
honourable distinction of this country is not owing to any
minister of the present day, but it is the ancient law of
this country that any one can find refuge here, and I will
never depart from that law of just and equal hospitality.
But if on the one hand that is clearly the law, on the other
hand it can as little bo doubted that refugees who receive
our hospitality, and who reside in safety under the shadow
of our laws, so long as they are in safety ought not to
abuse that hospitality by levying war against any other
country, whether it be a republic or a monarchy, which is
at peace with this country. It has been said, with respect
to the individual in question, that M. Kossuth was a per-
son of illustrious rank, who was governor of Hungary, and
who had endeavoured to maintain the ancient constitution
of that country. I will not enter into any controversy on
that subject ; but I may say that there some who assert
that there are two opinions on that point. It is thought
by some persons that he fought on behalf of the cause of
Hungary, and that he did all that a patriot could to
maintain her ancient constitution. But there are others
who think that, from want of judgment and im-
prudence, he had damaged the character of the con-
stitution of that country, and brought her into collision
with Austria, and so was the author of the calamities
which had befallen her. There are those two opi-
nions entertained, and it is not for me to say which is
the right one. However M. Kossuth comes to this country
and receives our hospitality; he comes not like a person
who was unknown, but as one who came with a liberty
which he had obtained chiefly through the exertions of my
noble friend when Secretary for Foreign Affairs; who,
speaking in the name of England, urged on Turkey to per-
severe in the hospitality which, to her honour, she had
afforded to those exiles, and even offered the support of the
arms of this country to Turkey if she should be attacked
while performing the duties of hospitality ; and, finally, he
urged on Turkey not to continue the confinement of M.
Kossuth, but to allow him to come to this country. I say
then, if any one ought to be bound not only by the general
law of this country, which breathes such a spirit of hospi-
tality, but by peculiar ties of gratitude to the Govern-
ment, M. Kossuth is bound to obey the laws of this coun-
try, and not to do anything which may involve her in any
cause of quarrel with any nation. The hon. gentleman
says that M. Kossuth has scrupulously obeyed the laws
which he found to be in force, and has lived without giv-
ing any cause of offence to those who administer them.
The hon. gentleman is well acquainted with M. Kossuth,
and the fact may be as he has stated it. At the same time
I cannot wonder that suspicions should be aroused of a
contrary nature ; for we cannot but recollect that wo have
seen in the newspaper to which the hon. gentleman has
referred a letter or proclamation addressed by M. Kossuth
to the subjects of a foreign sovereign, calling on them to
rise against that sovereign, and urging his soldiers to leave
their colours and engage in hostility of the most deadly
kind against that state, and that proclamation was pub-
lished in connection with the insurrection at Milan. It
has been stated on behalf of 3f. Kossuth that he had not
authorised its publication, and that charges had been made
in it. But it is certain that when he was at Kutayah he
gave a paper of this kind to a person, thus pointing out
the duty of insurrection to the subjects of Austria. I
say that it was an imprudent and unjustifiable act in him,
while residing in a foreign country, to give a paper to any
one to be used for the purposes of insurrection. Not
only this, we have seen it lately avowed by M. Kossuth
that it is his 'purpose to make war on sovereigns against
termswhose tyrannyof amity
this
nht
re protests,y; and
w andhe wwheo
add are ot no
this that which has been stated by the hon. member for
s werepe
su put together,
f employw ar—el dat in
yst hnt eho mat t
ta
onwubhfe a
won-
deredthe West Riding—namely, that several. Hungarians con-
enctureall
ocr netted
circumstancesewt
ei t
nothfefho rM the
sovereign. With
intention of levying war against a foreign
by the hon. gentleman of my
regard to the question asked
the
can state is, that Commissioners
at that the police should suspect that he had some
noble friend, all that I
K °Psusarlio)
of Police from time to time make reports of circumstances
Kossuth or any other person, which induce them to believe
meditated. I do not think it right for
that any crime isnoble has
than this, for my friend said
which come to their knowledge, whether affecting M.
me to say more
Person but Mr. Hale. But I shall
founded against any
the hand bound
• Min that while on onewe are
always mean
d our hospitality to those persons, on the other
that there is no evidenepon which an indictment could be
to eaten
this country to be guilty of
to allow persons residing in
hon.f 'end the member for 3forpeth,
that which my right
Secretary,
-declared to be a crime
hand we are bound py: our obligations to foreign states not
that is, the levying war
against the law of this coun.ry—to a a
_ew
words
more
against foreign states. wish gi 3' f
when ho was Homecountry—than

member
evening has
entirely Lord
misstatedA L M E RSn
iTe O. N The he
My
applied to what I conceived to be the endeavour of the
honourable member for Manchester to extort from me an
observationse u
ee
e other
thenopinion
in
progress.as t o t l
(Hearpossible resulthear.) ofl theconsidered proceedings h
ni t
at law
ask
what would be the effect on Kossuth of tho proceedings
then going on; and I stated that it would be very uncon-
stitutional to give an opinion on that subject. (Hear,
hear.) With regard to the police, I beg to say that what-
ever burden has to be borne on that account, is borne by
this country. (Hear, hear.) The honourable mzeiber for
a
Manchester refers to statement which I made on a former
occasion, to the effect that what is called surveillance is a
state of things unknown in this country. Now a state of
surveillance is this, that an individual is not allowed to go
beyond certain limits, and he is watched by competent
authorities to prevent him from doing so. Undoubtedly
it is one of the duties of the police to ascertain whether
the laws of the country are infringed, and if they have
reason to think that any given individual is engaged in
proceedings contrary to the law, it is the duty of the
police to take measures for the purpose of informing the
Government, and if they had reason to think that Kossuth
or any other person was engaged in
Moceedings contrary

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 6, 1852,

with regard to a statement which has been made, that al
these proceedings arose in consequence of communications
received from the Government of Austria. The nature of
the communications which have been made to us by the
Government of Austria I will state in general terms.
Nothing in the nature of a demand or specific requirement
has been made by the Government of Austria to the
Government of this country. On the contrary, the Go-
vernment of Austria has repeatedly stated that they asked
nothing, and wished it to be understood that no demand
was made by them ; but they have stated that they felt
aggrieved by proceedings which were carried on here,
but that it was for the government of England, on which
they placed perfect reliance, to take such measures as they
should think fit with regard to them. It was not unnatural,
when insurrection was going on, that they should represent
that their Government was disturbed, and liable to attacks
from various quarters, and that sometimes attempts at as-
sassination were made by men connected with persons who
are attempting to overthrow the Government of the coun-
ti7 ; and we know that many of those who are connected
with those proceedings are in England. Ido not say that
these complaints are justified, but it is the bounden duty
of the Government, while they say we will not change our
law, and we will allow all persons to come to and remain
in this country undisturbed, to see that the laws of this
country, and our international relations are not violated.
(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. WALMSLEY said the noble lord was ia error in
supposing that the letter or proclamation to which ho had
alluded was written in this country. So far from its being
written in this country, it was written when M. Kossuth
was a prisoner, and before he had ever been in England.
Tho most serious hardship against M. Kossuth was the
employment of spies. That charge had not yet been an-
swered. (Hear, hear.) It was a most grievous outrage
that the police should dog the steps of that illustrious exile,
and of all those who called upon him or inquired after him.
If ho rightly understood the noble lord, he (Sir J. Walms-
ley) could assure him that this question would not rest
here. (Cheers.) If what was stated was true, that per-
sons were absolutely sent to the house of M. Kossuth to
assist in the removal of his goods that they might act as
spies about the premises, then it was clear that those per-
sons must have been employed by somebody—if not by the
noble lord at the head of the Home Department, then it
must have been by the police. (Hear, hear.) A com-
mittee of inquiry ought to be instituted; and if no ono else
would do so, he would himself move for an inquiry. (Hear,
hear.)