The Sun.
London, England, 1853-07-08 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
RUSSIA AND TURKEY.
Lord BROUGHAM wished to put a question to the
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs ; and he begged
to premise by stating that he had not had any commu-
nication whatever, direct or indirect, with his noble
friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, or any other
member of the Government, on the subject of the ques-
tion he was about to put. He should put the question
entirely apart from them, but under a deep conviction of
its importance in the present crisis of foreign affairs. A
notice stood on the votes which had been given by a
noble marquis for to-morrow night, and which, if made,
must needs bring on a discussion of all which related to
the present posture of affairs in the east of Europe. It
was in most safe hands, whether he regarded the motives
of his noble friend in bringing it forward, or the sound
discretion under the control of which he was sure toact;
but he wished to ask his noble friends opposite whether
in the present posture of affairs no inconvenience, he
might even say mischief, might possibly arise, he would
almost say, might probably arise from such a discussion
at this time. If, which heaven forbid, all negotiation
was at an end, and a rupture was inevitable, then no
mischief nor inconvenience could take place from a dis-
cussion. If, which heaven grant, negotiations were in
such a state and posture that all difficulty and embar-
rassment was at an end, then again neither mischief nor
inconvenience could arise. But if neither of those ques-
tions could be answered in the affirmative, then he
would put it to his noble friend, the noble marquis, whe-
ther he would not act wisely by abstaining from bring-
ing the subject before the house at present. (Hear.)
The Earl of CLARENDON said it was perfectly cor-
rect that his noble and learned friend had not communi-
cated with him or any other member of the Government
on the subject of his question before he came into the
house. In answer to his noble and learned friend's
question, as to the very grave subject which now
agitated the public mind, and with respect to
which his noble friend, the noble marquis, had given
notice for to-morrow, he could not say that there
would be neither mischief nor inconvenience in the
full discussion of that subject. (Hear, hear.) Unfor-
tunately, he could not say that negotiations had arrived
at that point, or that the matter was so near a settle-
ment as to render a discussion upon the subject com-
paratively unimportant ; but he could say that negotia-
tions were going on, and that they most earnestly hoped
that there might be a peaceful solution of the question
—(hear, hear)—and he was sure that their lordships
would be the last people in the country who would wish
to do anything to prevent so desirable a result. (Hear,
hear.) He entirely agreed with his noble and learned
friend, that the question could not be in safer hands
than that of his noble friend the noble marquis ; lie was
indeed indebted to his noble friend already, for having
once or twice put off his motion of which he had given
notice, and having, with his noble friend opposite, been
content with such answers as he could give. He felt,
after the great delay which had taken place in bringing
this question to a solution, and the great interests con-
nected with it, together with the natural desire which
existed, not only in their lordships' house, but through.
out the country, to possess all the information which the
Government could safely give, he felt that he could not
again ask his noble friend to withdraw his motion, but
he must reserve to himself, in replying to it, to say
nothing more than his public duty would allow, and more
than that he was sure their lordships would not require.
He therefore did not make any application to his noble
friend to postpone his motion, and he should be ready to
meet him to-morrow; but, as he was on his legs, he
would take the opportunity of asking his noble friend
whether he would object to postpone his motion until
Monday next. It would be convenient to have the dis-
cussion in both houses at the same time, and Lord J.
Russell was so extremely unwell that it would be im-
possible for him to be in the House of Commons to-
morrow. He hoped, however, to be there on Monday.
Further than that, he must rely on the judgment
and discretion of his noble friend ; and he was sure
that he would not press on any motion which might
be prejudicial to the public interests. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUH said the noble earl
who had just spoken, and the Government, must be de-
sirous of taking the first opportunity which they could
take, consistently with the public interests, to make a
full statement to the house, and if necessary to ask the
opinion of Parliament on their conduct, or to ask for the
support of Parliament. And if that was a fair conclu-
sion, from all that had proceeded from the noble earl,
he thought the noble marquis would exercise a sound
discretion, and only leave in view the public interests,
if he deferred not only until Monday, but generally,
without fixing at present any day, the motion of which
he had given notice for to-morrow. (Hear, hear.) He
was so strongly impressed with the importance of that
postponement, that it was his intention to have pressed
the noble marquis generally to have postponed his mo-
tion. He could not think it desirable that any state-
ment should proceed from the noble marquis, however
temporary it might be, after which it would be impos-
sible for the Government to make any other than a par-
tial and maimed statement of the transactions that had
taken place, and which must be unsatisfactory to the
country. And if they were to go beyond that, and dis-
close matters for the convenience of debate, which, in
their opinion, ought to be kept concealed, public mis-
chief, and not advantage, would be the consequence.
That which was stated in the last paragraph of the mo-
tion which the noble marquis intended to propose, it
might be proper for them at some future period to de-
clare ; but there was judgment not merely in saying the
right thing, but in saying the right thing at the right
time, and that time appeared cez vainly, at present, not
to have arrived. Therefore he most earnestly suggested
to the noble marquis that he should consider whether,
in reality, it would be for the public advantaff"e that
either to-morrow, or on Monday, a discussion should be
forced on the house upon a transaction of so critical a
character, in which it was impossible that her Majesty's
Ministers could, consistently with their sense of duty,
make a full disclosure. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of DERBY said the noble marquis had given
his notice without consulting with any political party, or
without reference to any political support he might have
on the one side or the other, and after what had been
stated by the noble earl the Secretary of State for Fo-
reign Affairs, it was hardly necessary that he should say
that he, as well as the noble earl, was taken altogether
by surprise at finding his noble and learned friend bring-
ing the question under the notice of their lordships. He
was aware of the intention of his noble friend who had
just sat down to make some suggestion ; and he merely
rose to express, with the noble earl, his hope that the
noble marquis would be content, notwithstanding the
natural anxiety which he felt in common with the coun-
try, to await the solution of this question, and God
grant that it might be a pacific one. (Hear, hear.) He
trusted that the noble marquis would be satisfied for
the present to leave the responsibility where it must
rest ; namely, on her Majesty's Government, and not
embarrass them by calling upon them to make disclo-
sures which might be disadvantageous to the public
service, or be the means of bringing on a partial discus-
sion. He rose however, not so much for the purpose
of expressing his concurrence in the view taken by his
noble friend, as for the purpose of expressing a hope that
if this course was taken in their lordships' house it
might also be thought expedient to adopt a similar course
elsewhere ; and he stated that because the noble earl
opposite had rested his ground of postponement on the
necessity of a similar postponement taking place in the
House of Commons until Monday next. Nothing could
be more inconvenient than to have the mouth of one of
the houses of Parliament silent on the discussion of a
great question of foreign policy, and that a partial and
imperfect statement should be made in the other. He
could not make an appeal to the hon. gentleman who
had given notice in the other house, but he could not
but think that whenever the question was discussed, it
was important that a debate should take place on the
subject in both houses of Parliament.
Earl GREY said if he rightly understood the answer
of the noble earl to the question put to him by his
noble and learned friend, he said that it was out of his
power to deny that a discussion of this sort would not be
attended by mischief and inconvenience. He thought,
after such a declaration, the propriety of postponing the
discussion must be obvious, and he could not think that
any scruple which the noble earl might feel in asking
the noble marquis to postpone his motion, because he
had done so before, should be regarded by him. A sub-
ject of such deep importance must ultimately be dis-
cussed in both houses of Parliament ; and those who had
no further information than that which they could ob-
tain from the public press, could hardly doubt that a
discussion on this subject in both houses of Parliament
must considerably increase the existing irritation, and
lessen the chance which he trusted might still exist of a
pacific termination.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE would be obliged
if his noble friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs
would repeat what he had stated, for it caught his ear
very imperfectly.
The Earl of CLARENDON said he intended to re-
peat the expression used by the noble and learned lord.
He said he could not deny that there might be inconve-
nience and mischief in bringing on a full discussion of this
subject at the present moment; but he did not think it
right to ask his noble friend to put off his motion, because
he should reserve to himself the right of saying nothing
that he thought would lead to inconvenience. (Hear.)
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE felt that great re-
sponsibility rested upon him in this matter. He had not
personally consulted with any member of the house, much
less with any political party. After what had been said
by the noble earl, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, he
could not hesitate as to the course which it was his duty
to adopt, as lie certainly did not wish to increase the dif-
ficulty which existed at this critical moment. He would
not incur the risk, no matter how slight, of causing any
inconvenience or mischief. At the same time, he must
he permitted to say that there seemed to have been a
misapprehension of the question, which he had thought
it his duty to put. (Hear, hear.) Into the whole
question he did net intend to enter, because an im-
portant part of that question, when it came to be
fully discussed, would be the conduct of the Govern-
ment, which he did not think he could in any way ar-
raign, neither could he applaud or approve it until all
the papers on the subject had been laid before Parlia-
ment. But it occurred to him that in the present state
of affairs an expression of opinion by the British Parlia-
ment could not fail to have a great effect. In with-
drawing his notice it must be understood that he did so
only on the supposition that the notice which had been
giver in the other house of Parliament would be like-
wise withdrawn. (Hear.) Notwithstanding what had
been said, his opinion remained unchanged, that at this