The Sun.
London, England, 1854-05-09 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY .EVENING, MAY 9, 1854.

which are provided for take place. It is a boon withheld
from him, and not one of the actual enjoyments of which
he is deprived. Indeed it is rather improving his position
—(hear, arid a laugh)—because you will agree with me it
is the foretcn duty which at present regulates the price,
and not the British duty. The foreign duty upon all
sugars not equal to white clayed in quality is at present
13s. We propose that by an immediate resolution it shall
be fixed at 125., without any regard to origin, incident
upon all sugars alike, I mean to say upon all sugars of
whatever country. We propose to antedate by the period
of about eight weeks, the equalization of the sugar duties;
and, in fact, it will be my duty to ask the committee for its
formal assent, with a view to fiscal purposes, to this reso-
lution to-night; and, therefore, from to-morrow the in-
crease of duty will be in operation. The scale of duties,
as it is proposed for all sugars, irrespective of origin, will
be, then—if beneath brown clayed, lls. per cwt. ;if equal
to brown, but not quite equal to white clayed, 12s. ; if
equal to white clayed, and not equal to refined, 14s. ; if
refined, 16s. tilo cwt. The corresponding rate upon mo-
lasses will be 4s. 6d. The gain which I anticipate, from
the application of this scale to the sugar duties, not in-
volving an increase on the duties prevailing at the present
moment, but involving an increase on what would be the
duties after July in the present year of about ls. 6d. or
2s. , per cwt., will amount to 700,0031., to add to
the 450,0001. from the increase upon spirits. Honourable
gentlemen, will see, therefore, that I have taken for
the income tax 3,280,0001., for spirits 450,0001.,
and for sugar duties 700,0001., making, in all,
4,400,000/. The amount of the charge for which I stated it
was necessary to provide was 6,850,000/. ; it will therefore
be seen that we have a considerable step yet to make Sir,
we propose to make that step by an augmentation of the
duty on malt. (Hear, and a laugh.) Her Majesty's Go-
vernment are convinced that this, in combination with the
increase of the spirit duties, with the moderate increase, if
so it is to bo called, or modification rather, of the sugar
duties, is the fairest mode in which they can give effect to
the principle upon which they propose to act—namely, that
this war, although you may fairly come upon the wealthier
el ISIC3 with your first demands, yet being a war undertaken
not for the benefit of any class in particular, but with a view
to the national interest and the national honour—is one

the e:q:ense of which ought to be fairly distributed between
the different classes of the country. (Hear.) We think
that this is a duty which is recommended by the considera-
tion that it is an article of almost universal consumption,

and is at present in competition with other articles, wine
and spirits, which are far more highly taxed—not but that
I hope they always will be more highly taxed, though at the
preset time they are taxed out of all proportion with malt.
It is, too, an article upon which we feel certain we can get
pretty nearly all the revenue we expect, and upon which
we can collect the duty without additional expense. (Hear,
hear.) It is an article on which we shall be imposing no
add, tional restraint of any kind, and it is an article which
fair!; appears to us to combine—quite irrespective of the
considerations of former times—all those features which
out ht, if we had any choice, to determine our choice. I
cannot, however, altogether decline to refer to former
times though here I must remind the committee that the
malt :luty, as it now stands, is a very different thing from the
malt duty of a former period, because it stood then in grace-
ful sissoeiation with a beautiful sister—the beer duty, which
was really equal to no less than a duty of 3s. 93. a bushel
upon malt. In order to show you the effect of thebeer duty
upon the malt duty, I will give you the two taxes as they
stood together up, to the abolition of the beer duty.
In 1801 the duty upon malt was ls. 4d. per bushel, but
then the beer duty was Sc. a-barrel, which gave a duty
on malt of 4s. 41d. ; in 1302 the malt duty rose to 2s. 53.,
which, with a beer duty of 9e. sd. made a duty on malt of
ss. ; in 1301 there was a further increase in the malt
duty to 4s. and the beer duty also rose to 10s„ so
that the effective duty on malt was Bs. 2id. per bushel.
In 1816, after the peace (it was a war duty), the malt duty
was reduced to 2s. 50., but the beer duty continued at
103., .$) that the effective duty on malt in 1316 was Gs. 2d.
In 1319, in a time of peace (I have never proposed to fol-
low that precedent), it was raised to 33. 7 d., which, with
the beer duty of 10s. became 7s. ; in 1822 it was
again redeced to 2s. 7:1., and, adding the beer duty, it was
equivalent to Gs. 4d. per bushel. In 1830 it remained at
2s. 741., wails the beer tax was taken off, and at that it has
stood with the sole exception of the addition of the rate of
5 per cent. under the measure of 1840, which makes the
present malt duty, a little more than 2s. 80., with some
fraction. Toe proposal of the Government, then, is to
raise the tax from what we will call 2s. 9d., in round
numbers, to 4s. which will leave it at a lower rate than it
was before 1,301, much lower than in 1802, and less than a
half of what it was during the whole period of the fiercest
struggle of the war from 1804 to 1816. Taking the con-
sumption at 40,000,00 bushels, this would give 2,580,0001.,
free which I deduct 5 per cent., or 130,0001.—n0t, I be-
lieve, an unreasonable deduction—for diminished consump-
tion, and that gives me 2,450,00 a/. from the malt duty,
which, added to the 4,440,0001. which I have already
charged, makes a total of 6,850,0001., just the amount for
which I proposed to ask. Sir, it will be now perceived, to
sum this part of the case briefly up, that as the taxes
granted in March were 3,307,000/.' and the taxes now
asked being 6,850,0001., this gives the amount of taxes
asked from you during the present year at 10,157,000/.
Bat, if you set against this all the proposals with respect
to the remission of taxation which were enacted in 1,853,
but which only came into effect in 1851, they amount to
1,471,09 X., and therefore the net augmented burdens of
the country will be 8,683,0001. If, again, you look to the
distribution of these burdens, you will find that the in-
eome tax gives you 6,517,0001.--that is, about two-thirds
of the whole additional burden is raised by one single di-
rect tax on the wealthier class, and about one-third of the
whole is to be raised by indirect taxation, affecting the
whole consuming people, and therefore all classes alike.
We propose to ask for the income tax for the war ; we pro-
pose to ask for the malt duty also for the war; we pro-
pose to ask for the duty on spirits without any sort of
limitation, because, in fact, it is an advance towards a per-
manent fiscal improvement. For the sugar duties we ask
ter the present time srithorit fixing any point of time at
which the present arrangement should cease, because it is a
scatter which, when it comes to be finally arranged, may
require a great deal of consideration in detail, and,
therefore, it is only proposed until that time arrives. Now,
Sir, that is the provision which the Government proposes
to make for the expenditure that is before them. But there
is yet another point upon which it is absolutely necessary
I should state the views of the Government to the coin-
mitteee, and that is what grows out of the consideration
that we are now arrived at a state of things in which it is
impossible to form the same calculations with regard to
the condition of the Exchequer, and the immediate supply
of cash which we may usually and safely draw with re-
gard to other matters. In former times the expenses of the
war did not gather very rapidly in the Exchequer, and
there was a most rapid and consecutive accumulation of
debt in every imaginable form totally irrespective of the
funds. But now that great improvements have taken place
in the system of accounts I hope we shall be able to pay
our way and to avoid all long credit—so that from year to
year it may be possible to state to the committee what is
the actual condition of the public finances. (Cheers.) I think
the committee will agree with use that on entering on the
first year of war it will be bestto take a sufficient command
of cash. We therefore ask you to give us power, not only
to raise, but to expend the sum of 2,100,0001. for extra-
ordinary purposes ; but we do not think it right even to
take that as a limit. To give us a command of cash, we
propose to take now, if you will give them, still larger
powers for raising money in a case of need, subject, of
course, to our responsibility and to the approval of Parlia-
ment as to what is to be done with it. I will now go a little
out of the ordinary course of financial estimates, and will
present to the committee a view of what I may call the
interim provision which we propose to make ; for even
although you give us, as I trust you will, the taxes for
which we ask, yet those taxes cannot be realised wholly
within the year. And there are other taxes which render
it necessary to have a command of cash at a period like the
present. For example, if I may refer to such a question,
there is the money held in deposit in savings banks. A very
great change in the value of money may—without saying
in consequence of a panic, but quite apart from a panic—a
great change in the value of money may cause the with-
drawal of deposits, which withdrawal of deposits would be
a most expensive thing, and would have to be met by the
sale of stock at a time when funds were low. Again, the
state of trade might be another cause which would render
it necessary to have a command of cash. Undoubtedly,
nettling can be more satisfactory than the state of trade at
present, bat, at the same time, it would be presumptuous
to assume that its elasticity and vigour are to continue
altogether unimpaired. Some possible weakness in the
revenue ought to be taken into consideration, as well as a
. rapid increase in the rate of expenditure. And, of course,
, the limited amount of the public balances at the present
moment is a further reason why you should esisercise a
strict, and even a jealous vigilance over this portion of the
arrangements proposed by Government. The point which,
however, I am now about, to state is not the question of
expenditure so much as that of treating the means which
you may expend in case of need, with the approval of Pan
lianiont or upon the responsibility of Government, subject
• to the approval of Parliament. We ask for a permanent
annual provision for taxation—l use the word "perma-
nent" with reference to the duration of war—a permanent
or fixed provision of 6,850,000/. But out of that 6,850,0001.
we cannot expect to receive in cash before the sth of April,
1855, more than eramething like the following sums:—ln-
come-tax, 2?0,000/.; spirits, 400,0001.; sugar, 620,0001.;
malt, 1,600,0001.; making in all 2,840,001., which will be
the greatest amount, not of the taxes we are now asking for,
but which we can expect to have actually at our command
before the sth of next April. Deducting that 2,810,0001.
from the sum of 6,850,0001., it will explain that on the
sth of April, 1855, we ought to expect to be in an arrear of
no less than 4,010,000/. That 4,010,0001. is the sum which
Government ought to have ample ample means of raising,
and even, perhaps, something more. The proper means of
raising it, according to the view of Government, is through
tho medium of temporary securities. These temporary
securities might be in the usual form of Exchequer-bills,
or they might be in the form of an instrument which was
first mentioned, at least first mentioned to the house, with
a practical view last year, and which, although the cir-
cumstance did not suit its introduction at the rate of in.
terest then proposed, was generally, I believe, considered
a convenient and desirable form of public securities—l
mean Exchequer-bonds. And here I must say there are
two charges which appear to have been made against Go-
vernment, and against myself in particular, which are of
a most gratuitous, and I will even go further and say, of
a most foolish character. It has been stated that, after
having pledged ourselves on the 6th of March to ask for no
loan, we gave notice on the 21st of April that we intended
to have a loan. doubt that would have been a serious
delinquency on the part of Government if there happened
so be a word'of truth in it; but in that slight and im-
portant element, excellent so far as the point is concerned,
the truth is totally wanting. (Laughter and cheers.) We
never pledged ourselves on the 6th of March that there
should be a loan, and there was no loan on the 21st of
April. (Laughter.) What was said on the 6th of March
was this : —I stated, by the instruction of my colleagues,
that it was impossible to give any pledge or to tie ourselves
to any abstract declaration, that we felt strongly it was
the duty and policy of the country to make a great effort
from its own resources, but I never attempted to bind our
discretion or the discretion of Parliament with reference
to a loan. (Hear, hear.) What appeared on the 21st of
April was no loan at all, but a provision for the temporary
raising of money. If those who have spoken of it as a loan
had had the patience to wait and wave the discussion of
the plan until it was before Parliament, they would have
known the intention was to take power, in case the money
was found to be more than was needed, to employ it in
the redemption, as far as might be convenient, of cer-
tain public securities. This is a totally different opera.
tion from a loan; and the mere question would be, con-
sidering the rate of interest or the amount of Exchequer-
bills, what would be the most convenient form of making a
temporary interim provision for the publio necessities?
Although the operation contemplated was to the extent of
6,000,000/. of money, the sending in of Exchequer-billkas
Well as Exchequer-bonds, was invited in the various no-
tices issued, and therefore, from that circumstance, the
character of the operation is entirely distinguished from
that of a loan. The ro proposal with respect to Exchequer-
bonds wag, that tenders pshould be invited to the amount
of 2,000,0001, for bonds that were to be liquidated at par

in the year 1858, for 2,000,0001. to be liquidated in the
year 1859, and for 2,0'0,000/. to be liquidated in the year
1860. Now, of these bonds only a limited portion was to
be taken. On the 2d of May, when the tenders were sent
in, it appeared that the sum of 1,370,0001. was the whole
amount for which tenders was given. There was no
quarrel or question at all as to the rate of interest, because
the sealed price fixed for the first class of bonds at 981.
155., and out of the whole amount of tenders sent in four-
fifths, or 1,113,0004., was either at the sealed price, or within
a very small fraction of it. But tenders were not sent in.
The list has been kept open since that time, and at present
I believe, though I cannot state it with perfect minute-
ness, the state of the case is, that bonds A have been taken
except a very small amount, and no appreciation has been
taken upon bonds C and D. At present the position of
the matter is this, that a trifle below 2,000,0001. upon
bonds A only has been tendered for. It may fairly be
asked, what is the cause of these Exchequer-bonds not
having been taken ? It was not that they were at a rate
of interest that was too low, because the capitalists of the

.
country are certainly accustomed to lend money at low
rates of interest ; but the cause of the failure is a cause
that may be mentioned without the slightest scruple,
without the slightest doubt, and without the smallest re-
proach to anybody. The practice obtaining in former
wars has been, not to make any effort to meet oven the
first charges from the annual resources of the country, but
it has been to borrow largely on stocks, and the fortunes
made on those stocks have been so gigantic that the open-
ing of a war is not less distinguished for the opportunities
it affords to contractors than for the opportunities it affords
to heroes. I should certainly be surprised if we were not
anxious to avoid the policy of Mr. Pitt in 1793, and adhere
rather to the wiser policy he attempted to pursue at a later
period—a policy which would not lead to the creation of
enormous amounts of stock, entailing upon posterity many
millions, many tens of millions—ay, some hundreds of
millions of debt—ever to be liquidated in hard money, but
which originally figured as mere ciphers of stock. That
that policy is not to be pus sued cannot be expected to be a
popular announcement ; and of course' so long as the
policy might rest on the mere will of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer and the First Lord of the Treasury, it is not
to be expected that the power would be despised. But in
my opinion, it does not rest with the executive Govern-
ment what is the policy to be pursued. It rests rather
with this house. The Government ask this house, what
is its view ? and when this house, by its intelligible vote
upon the proposals of Government, has indicated its opi-
nion on the policy to be pursued, and the house has taken
and made its choice between the two courses—the one to
raise loans at once, the other to make a reasonable effort
first of all from the annual resources of the country, when
the house by its intelligible vote has declared its view upon
that subject, it would no longer be the Chancellor of the
Exchequer or his proposal, but what the house proposes,
that should take effect. The proposal we now make is in
conformity with our proposal as to taxes. It is to this
effect—to give us interim funds, and to give us a commend
of cash which would afford us that margin in the expendi-
ture which we ought to have. We propose to confirm the
contracts entered into with respect to bonds A, and to
issue, at the diecretion of the Lords of the Treasury, a
second series of bonds for another 2,000,0001. either now
or at a future clay. We also propose to take power to
issue 2,000,0031. of Exchequer-bills, and as many more
Exchequer-bills as shall not be taken off the 4,030,0001.
bonds. At first sight this would appear to give us a
command of 6,000,000/. of money. It does not, how-
ever, give 119 quite so much, because a sum amount-
ing to some hundred thousand pounds-500,0001., to my
certain-knowledge—of the tenders sent in, has been an
exchange of Exchequer-bills, and is not, therefore, au effec-
tive addition to cash. The effective addition to cash is
5,500,0001., and that may be made applicable to services
approved by Parliament or to the liquidation of public
securities. Perhaps it may be agreeable to the committee
that I should here state to thorn, in a few words, what is
not a financial estimate nor a tax estimate, but a cash esti-
mate—an estimate of the cash which will be at command
between April the sth, 1854, and April the sth, 1855. I
will first of all take the charges we have to make. The
expenditure for which you provided on the 6th of March,
was 56,189.000/. ; the new estimates amount to 6,000,0001.
and there will be a sum of 850,0001., in addition to the vote
of credit, making a total estimated demand fur cash of
63,039,000/. The revenue estimated on the 6th of March,
for 1851-55, was 53,319,1 001., and the income tax then
granted of 3,307,0001., raises it to 56,656,300/. You then
voted 1,750,0001. Exchequer Bills (of which 1,250,00)/. are
already issued), raising the revenue to 58,106,0001. Out of
the new taxes you are now asked to vote, we expect to get,
before the sth of April,lBss, 2,810,0001., and the Exchequer
Bonds and Exchequer Bills now asked for amount to
5,500,000/. Adding these two items, which amount to
8,340,0001., to the sum of 53,406,0001., you have a total
provision of 66,746,0001.„ with a probable amount to
charge of 63,039,000/. The margin taken, therefore, will
amount to 3,707,0001., or, to be secure, say, 3,500,0001. I
need not state that what I am now speaking of is entirely
distinct fr.= surplus iucome. lam asking for the me ins
of creating cash to be available for necessary purposes that
may be hereafter required. I have now stated the bulk of
our proposals, and I want further to acquaint the commit-
tee with the order in which I propose to take them. I
propose to ask the committee to do upon the present occa-
sion that which, without any prejudice to the vote or view
of any individual member of this house, has been done on
all former occasions—namely, to grant to us, with respect
to the taxes upon consumption, the formal sanction of the
resolution in committee, so as to enable us to raise the
charge on goods and thereby prevent evasion of the duty.
I have said that this has been done upon all former occa-
sions ; but I ought, with some reproach to myself, to ex-
empt the case of the Irish spirit duty in the budget of last
year, for in the multitude of subjects with which I had to
deal, I omitted to make the application, and a day's delay
was the consequence. I don't think, under the cironm-
staneee, that any harm was done ; for, in point of fact,
the revenue officers, anticipating that the usual course
would be followed, had already proceeded to raise
the charge upon the various commodities. (Laughter.)
That, however, is a house I should not like to trust-to on
all occasions, and, as the question involved is a question of
a good many hundred thousand pounds, I am sure the com-
mittee will approve of our taking the usual course of re•
questing a vote upon those portions of taxation which
affect consumable articles. In that case it will be my duty
to ask for an immediate vote—but without the slightest
prejudice to the future discussion of the subject—upon the
Excise duty on spirits, the Excise duty on malt, the Excise
duty ou sugar, the Customs' duty on sugar, and the Cus-
toms' duty on spirits, and likewise on Exchequer bonds so
far as relates to the completion of contracts. With regard
to practice, it has been the uniform practice for the house
immediately to pronounce its opinion. What I have now
stated is the plan of the Government ; but at the same
time the Government are told that they are deeply censur-
able—and apparently, in the opinion of some, disqualified
from proposing a plan on such a subject by misconduct im-
puted not so much to them, as to myself individually.
The charges which have relation to myself are charges in
regard to the management of the balances at the bankers',
and in regard to the management of the cash credit ; and
they do not connect themselves with the permanent admi-
nistration of finance. But we are also deeply charged as
respects the permanent administration of finance, for we
told that we have made a wanton sacrifice of great por-
tions of the public revenue, and have, in consequence, de-
prived the country of resources of which it ought to have
been in possession at the commencement of the war, and
this, too, when although Parliament was not aware that a
war was about to take place, yet the Government must
have been aware that it was inevitable. (" Hear, hear,"
from the Opposition benches.) Perhaps those cheers are
an affirmation to the charge. At any rate, the charge has
been made, though it has been certainly made in inconsis-
tent terms, and I am curious to see what kind of effort
will be made to piece them together in the course of dis-
cussion. While the right hon. baronet the member for
Droitwich (Sir J. Pakington) asserts in the strongest terms
that the war could not have been avoided, his right hon.
friend the member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli)
asserts that nothing would have been easier than to have
avoided it, and that, in point of fact, if it had not been
for one single man the Government could not have helped
avoiding it. (Laughter and cheers.) With respect to the
charge which has been brought against the Government,
it amounts to neither more nor less than this—that we be-
lieved an European Sovereign would act in conformity
with his pledges, and in conformity with his interests, and
that he has placed himself in a position which we are
equally at a loss to reconcile with his pledges or his in-
terests. (Cheers.) Ile has placed himself in a position
where ho sees the whole moral strength of Europe, aye,
and in a few days, nearly the whole physical strength of
Europe, arrayed against him. It is not necessary for me
to eater into the question of what Government might have
foreseen on the subject, but I do mean to touch upon the
absurd charge brought against Government, that by the
measures of last year they surrendered the public) revenue.
3."1-ever was anything more grossly wide of the truth,
(Cheers.) Now, what was the case when we came into
office ? Did we find the public revenue in such a state
that it was open to us to let it alone if we pleased ?
t
(Cheers.) What was the condition of the income tax at
moment ? From year to year it was the subject of
discussion whether it should be continued or not. , (Cheers
from the Ministerial benches.) In the opinion of r. Pitt
it was impracticable to reconstruct it so as to make it sa-
tisfactory; Sir Robert Peel found it impossible; and
the opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer under
Sir Robert Peel was, that it was utterly visionary
to 'attempt it. Indeed, the opinion obtained such cur-
rency, that the renewal of the itldetdd tax, ttPdti tll4
condition of reconstructing, or, as it was then called, " dif-
ferentiatine. it, was found impossible. (Cheers.) Was
that true or not? Row has the right hon. gentleman oppo-
site dealt with the subject? The right hon. gentleman
found it consistent with his duty to himself and to the
country to offer to settle it without having formed aug'
plan upon it. He promised to do that which Mr. Pitt
could not do, which gir Robert Peel could not do, fitly
which even ho himself did not know how to do. (Laughter
and cheers.) He told us he proposed to fix the rate on
Schedule A at 7d., on Schedule 0 at 'td., on &heti-tiled D
and Eat 5d., but when my right hon. friend the First
Lord of the Admiralty (Sir James Graham) and the right
hon. member for Portsmouth (Sir F. Baring) showed the
intolerable absurdities the right hon. gentleman must coin•
mit in redeeming that pledge, the right host. getttioniart
said he had not had time to look at tho schedules. (Laugh-
ter.) The meaning of that was, that he had not had time
which
to
Pitt awndill R. Peel impracticable,thatth ewi sh abnu,t
intention of a large majority of the house wag, that we
should not renew the income tax except on condition of
,
to forma lan, or to ascertain if that was practicable
Peei
remembered found
office, set ourselves to the most serious consideration
we discussed it again and again, we turned it over
and over, placed it in every posssible light in which it
to that conclusion to which Mr. Pitt and Sir Robert
which the right lion. gentleman promised, nevertheless, to
perform. (Continued laughter.) This was the great fact
that confronted us,---the income tax was dead and rOnd
when our financial statement was made, and, so far front
surplus, we had a deficiency of 4,700,0001. With regard
to the income tax, the renewal of that tax was a matter
reconstructing it. We, from the very first day we entered
of the subject; we obtained every aid in omit power,
be placed before the house, and at length we came
Peel had come—the conclusion was that it was impossible to
reconstruct the income-tax so as to frame a measure:which
Parliament might in justice, or even in decency, pass ; and
I see now before me an hon. member who, having been of
an opposite opinion, stated in this house, that after the
examination the subject had received he could not settle
finally in that opinion. But then we said we distinguished
between the feelings which led to the desire for the recon-
struction of the income tax and the practicability of the
particular form upon which that feeling was based ; we
said, what you feel is this—that property pays too little
and intelligence pays too much ' • we have inquired into
the nature of the income tax, and we find we cannot redress
you through the income tax, we will find and we found
that other mode of redress in the succession tax—(Minis-
terial cheers)—and yet when we came to give that redress,
to remove the unequal burden upon intelligence, and to
put a little more upon property, insteadof being rewarded
for our pains, we incurred bitter opposition from the right
hon. gentleman—no, I beg the right hon. gentleman's par-
40F for tho word—We incurred not the bitter opposition,

but we incurred the stout and strenuous opposition of the
right hon. gentleman. For the last month a great deal has
been said about the finances of 1853, and any one who knew
nothing of the proceed hies of Parliament in 1853, or listened
only to the statements of those hon. gentlemen, might sup-
pase we were passing in discussion the whole of that time
nothing but minor stock. They forget the 40 divisions and
the 20 or 30 nights during which we were persuading the
house to effect groat financial reforms opposed by the right
hon. gentleman upon the opposite side. (Hear, hear.) We
' were persuading the house to reform the income tax, to
convert it from that state of weakness, from that
state of discredit, from that state of danger to the
public into which it had fallen, into a powerful engine of
finance, and to place it again in that position in which
alone it ought to be if we should have it at all—in a condi-
tion to be available for the purposes of war as well as of
peace—(cheers)—and by your aid we were enabled to place
it in that position, and so to deal with it that it might
prove competent to bear the pressure of the amplification
now proposed. We were enabled, by your aid, to pass the
succession duty—a measure most difficult in its details, al-
though most moderate in its provisions—a measure formed
undoubtedly upon the principle of abating the extreme
claims upon all sides, but, at the same time, a measure the
passing of which I do not hesitate to say, while it adds
enormously to the stability and permanency of your
finances, adds no less to your political stability. (Hear.)
These things were done ; the income tax was reformed, the
soap duties was abolished, the reformation of the stamp
duties, admirably begun by my right hon. friend many
years before, was continued, the assessed taxes were recon-
structed and reduced from complexity and anomally and
injustice to a system. By your aid and your generous con-
fidence, and °query to the approval of the community at
large, these things were done, and now, when we have
come to a time of war, it is said the conversion of minor
stocks, forsooth, was the employment of 1853 ; and more,
these measures of last year are referred to as the abandon-
ment of income. No, sir, he who abandons the income of
the country is the man who promises to carry into effect
impracticable measures, without ever considering the ways
and means by which such measures are to be carried out.
(Cheers.) On the contrary, we say we induced you, and
you readily followed us in our earnest efforts to effect
these changes, and you left the finance of the country in a
1 condition—on the eve of war, at the very threshold of a
great struggle—so satisfactory, that the surplus on the
revenue of the year, after all these improvident operations,
amounted to no less than 3,500,00e1. (Cheers.) Well, sir,
that was the conduct of the Government, and, now, what
other matters are there for me to show ? Shall we be told
that the burdens and charges you have agreed to lay upon
the country aro burdens and charges which ought to be met
by a loan ? Surely, if I may venture to speculate upon the
conduct of the committee, I think, on the whole, it will be
felt that if we are to proceed by a general adjustment and
distribution of the taxes recommended, painful as the
operation may be, that general adjustment is not an unfair
ono. We have called upon the wealthy and the compara-
tively wealthy to pay two-thirds ; we have divided the
other third between the entire community, and we have
chosen those articles upon which taxation would appear to
effect the least mischief in proportion to the amount of
revenue to be raised. (Ministerial cheers.) I don't think
on the detail of these taxes it will be possible to induce
the committee to entertain much doubt ; but there may
be those who think with those gentlemen associated with
what is called the moneyocracy out of the house. Gentle-
men in the house will perform their duty to the people
and the Government by considering the public policy; still
there are those who will talk of the inconvenience of a tax,
or of its unpopularity, raising a cry which has always been
raised with respect to questions between this and that tax,
and objections that can be raised against all taxes, and I
do not doubt there are gentlemen here as well as elsewhere
who will say—" Abandon altogether these financiering
notions, and let us fall back upon the comfortable expedi-
ent of a loan." I beg the committee will recollect that if
there is any one man in this country who beyond every
other, except perhaps a capitalist—if there is any one man
in the country who as regards his feelings of personal com-
fort, and who beyond every other has an interest in recom-
mending recourse to a loan, it is the individual who has the
honour of filling the high and important office of Chancellor
of the Exchequer. (Hear.) That office is an office which any
man may be thankful to hold at a time when his occu-
pation is to deal with those timely resources which wise le-
gislation has given to him, and to distribute what may well
be called the bounty of the Legislature, because it results
from the wisdom of Parliament, among the various classes
of the community in the remission of charges; but that
happy course is woefully changed when there comes on a
period of war. It is not only a losing office, but a misera-
ble and wretched office to be constantly engaged in invent-
ing the moans of carrying on war, and of drawing fresh
taxes from the pockets of the people ; every good motive,
and every bad motive combatted only by the desire of the
approval of honourable men, and by conscientious recti-
tude—every motive of ease, of comfort, and of certainty,
spring forward in his mind, to induce a Chancellor of the
Exchequer to become the first man to recommend a loan.
(Hear, hear.) What was it that conferred upon Pitt the
title of the Heaven-born Minister? Was not that name
invented a little further east? It may not be difficult
to trace it, and my honourable friend's historical researches
might identify its origin —I always understood that
name came from the city of London, and came from the
city of London at the time when Pitt embarked this coun-
try in the miserable policy of meeting the first expendi-
ture of a revolutionary war by loan, loan, loan. (Cheers )
This is so important that, notwithstanding the demand
which I have already made upon your time, I must ask
you—and it is the last request which I shall make to-night
—to go back with me for a little to the period of that
revolutionary war. On a former occasion I referred to
the dicta of political economists, and I referred to the
moral considerations which seemed to recommend and ren-
der expedient some efforts to meet the first expenses of the
war by means of taxes ; but there is something that is
stronger than mere moral speculations, or even the philo-
sophic calculations of experimentalists ; and that something
is to be found in the warnings of history. If. after the records
which it has left to you, you will not make an attempt, at
least for a reasonable time and within reasonable limits, to
avoid a repetition of similar errors, you are not worthy of
the people you represent. (Cheers.) Here, Sir, is the
war budget of 1792. Mr. Pitt proposed having an excess
of charge over ways and means of 4,500,00 a is,
taking the income of the country, and taking the charge
connected with the first operations of the war. [Mr. Dis-
raeli here made some observations across the table which
were inaudible in the gallery.] I refer to Mr. Pitt with
profound respect, but these are errors, and he had great
errors. For myself, I feel entitled to look upon him with
veneration or otherwise, as I choose to consider ; but I
happen to have great veneration for Mr. Pitt, as I will
show the right hon. gentleman by and by, and I hope he
will then join me in imitating Mr. Pitt's policy; but I
am speaking of Mr: Pitt's errors at the commencement of
the war in 1793. He heard, no doubt, all those plausibi-
lities we now hear in great abundance, such as, "Oh, it is
all for the benefit of posterity, and why should not poste-
rity pay for it?" He made a charge of 4,500,0001., not by
attempting to fill his Exchequer with the proceeds of
taxes, but by sending into the city and asking for a loan
of 6,000,0001. Well, he very easily accomplished his
desire. There was no unpopularity ; quite the contrary.
Great skill—much praise, great erect, everybody well
satisfied. Admirable financier ! (Loud cheers.) Why, I
must be as blind as a mole not to see that my personal
interest would lie, and the interest of Government would
have lain in my efforts by this means to get the wheel out
of the rut ; but to get the wheel into the rut is a process
of much greater simplicity. He proposed a loan of
6,000,0001. to be added to the sinking fund at an interest
of 4 per cent., amounting to 240,000/. ; and, in order to
meet that, ho imposed new taxes to the amount of 287,0001.
That was the first year of his calculation with respect to
the war, and for the first year you may perhaps say it was
of no great moment. Mr. Pitt thought ho would got that
loan at 4 per cent., but he did not get the 4,500,0001. for
less than 4/. 3s. 4d. What was the second step in 1794?
He then borrowed 11,000,0001., and paid 41. 10s. 9d. per
cent. ; in 1793 he borrowed 18,000,0001., and paid V. 15s.
Bd. per cent. ; in 1790 he borrowed 25,500,0001., at 41.135.
53. ; in 1797 he borrowed 3e,500,00 V., at SI. 14s. 10d. per
cent. Only observe the circlet of the policy that was
Heaven-born. In 1798 he borrowed 1/,000,000/., at 61.45.
93. per cent., and, such were the evil eel -Irene to which he
went, that for that 1.7,000,000/. alone he added 34,00 ),0001.
to the capital of the national debt, and for the operations
of these six years, unetieeeelfal and inefficient for the pur-
pose of war, he added, in hatil int:they, 108,500,0001., arid,
in point of fact, he added nearly 24900,000 e to the capi-
tal of the country. (Hear, hear.) My wieh is to lay it
open before you, .and it is for you to decide whether you
will adopt similar principles. I said that I had veneration
for Mr. Pitt's measures, and I will now show you what he
did when he became sensible of hie errors. He saw ruin
groWing on the country; he saw the shsteeption of its re-
sources ; and he determined to make a gallattteffort to re-
trieee himself. In 1797 he made his first effort. He pro-
posed to taise 7,00010001. by assessed taxes. That plan
broke down —other plane) it Odell-is, break down occasionally
besides those of the present day iliat plan broke down, and
he only got 4,000,0001. Not (landed tel his failure, he came
forward and proposed to raise 10,000,00;i and rom that
time forward his whole course was one series of forttitmed
and oonvulsive efforts to recover himself, to extricate his
country from the frightful consequences of the former le l,
ity, and provide for the recurrence of similar circum-
stances. As to the amount of this Income, I believe I
should not be stating it too highly if I,Were to say that, as
far as our national debt stands at this moment, not less
thee. 059,090,000/. has been added to it for 'which the na-
tion never reeefeed a single penny—that was the offering
sacrificed to capital and thrown in as bonuses and in-
ducements to subscribe to these loans. 250,000,0001. of
capital I don't believe is an extravagant estimate of the
lees consequent upon the enormous errors Which had been
committed. That was the opening of the sinkfrtg fund ;
they were continually buying up stock at 3, or 4, or fi per
wet., and creating it at a higher rate at the same time ; it
Was like a seton in the human body, a perpetual drain on
the resources of the country, in addition to the other sad
eircrinestances of the time. But, as I said before, the
effort of Mr. Pitt was one that ought to be placed upon re-
cord; he saw the error of the practice of rushing on the
first inducement to a loan ; he saw and lamented the
effects of that want of moral courage, not in himself alone,
bee in the country—for undoubtedly he represented the
pttlelie etfetiments of the country in what he did, It was
the error of the nation, and, God knows, the nation tog-
fered for it. (Hear, hear.) But Mr. Pitt proposed an in.
C(ithd tat. He said :
" Gentlemen will recollect that in the debates upon the
subject of the assessed taxes last session two fundamental
principles were established as the rule.by which we should be
guidBd iii presiding for the supplies for the service of the
year. Theee. *ere first to reduce the total amount to be at
present raised hls et loan ; and next, as far as it was not
reducible, to reduce it to such a limit that no more loans I
should be raised than a tempoeery tax should defray within a
limited time,"
And therefore Mr, rat, after six years of war, and in the
Midst efthe eoAtietion which it produced, pro
posq. to add
tio 1038 theft tihntit. 4o ,fie cent. to the revere.l° the cod colge-
try. With a view, if Ile Midi of putting a et."
farther addition of all be promisee
permanent ittirdens non the cenn;
try, he raised a surplus in the year ; and, if
"Ything, it was to be exhausted, as he thought, within a
allant
limited number of eats. That was a great and g
proposal ; and I hope the ti lit .hon. gentleman will join
me in the tribute of respect With retlerd to that most im-
portant measure and that he is prepared to apt with us
and support a similar policy. The King's speech of 1799
referred to that policy, and his Majesty said, addressing
the House of Commons :
" Gentlemen of the House of Commons,—The unusual
sacrifices which you have made in the present moment, on
behalf of my subjects, aro wisely calculated to meet effectually
the exigencies of this great crisis. They have at the same
time gi -en additional security to public credit, by establish-
ing a system of finance beneficial .alike to yourselves and to
posterity ; and the cheerfulness with which these heavy bur-
dens are supported evince at once the good sense, the loyalty,
and the public spirit of the people."
That was the proposal of Mr. Pitt in 1798, at once to raise
the sum of 10,000,0001. towards meeting the expenses of the
war. In 1798 the the revenue was 23,100,000/.; in 1798 it was
25,600,0001.; but the excess continued to show it was not pos-

sible to keep it down altogether, even by these aids. Sub- 1
sequently, in 1803, the revenue had got up to 38,600,0001.,
and in 1805, the last year of Mr. Pitt's life, the revenue of
this country amounted to no less than 50,900,0001.—a
further increase of 12,300,0001. with a view to the expenses
of the war. In 1806 the Marquis of Lansdowne was Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, the full income tax was put on
and raised the revenue from 50,900,0001. in 1805. to
59,300,0001. in 1807, being an increase of 8,400,0001. From
1806 to 1816 the revenue was never below 60,000,0001:,
and for some time past it has been no less than 70,000,0001.
Such was the idea that England, Ireland, and Scotland
entertained as to the efforts they ought to make from their
own resources for the purpose of meeting the expenditure
of what they thought should be necessary. One single in-
stance of this has been shown by Mr. MiCulloch, who
points out the fact that the whole real accumulation of
our debt has been owing to the arrears of the early part of
the war-1806. This is most important—that between
1806 and the year 1816, such were the noble and wonderful
efforts of the country to do its duty that the sum raised
was amply sufficient to put the expenditure of the civil
government of the country and the whsle outlay required
by the war in this great and glorious year and the interest
of the debt in the same condition as the debt stood before
1793 ' • but the accumulation which came between 1793
and 1806 they were never able to overtake—so much of the
accumulation was still going on. (Cheers.) That was the
picture which Mr. Pitt and his successors entertained ;
that was the idea they had of their duty to their country
and posterity. Now, in those days when the Duke of
Wellington was covering the British name with fresh
glory, —in those days your fathers thought they were
fighting for the advantage of posterity ; and yet
you see the efforts they made to meet those
expenses. I ask you, are you worthy descendants of
those who did these great acts'? If so, you can honour the
man who came forward to the latest day of his life to im-
prove the financial position of the country? What is our
ease? We are now enjoying the fruits of 40 years' peace,
and the reduction of our burdens to a marvellous extent.
We now come to make these demands upon you to show
what you are, and to try what metal you are made of.
We don't ask you—God forbid that !—to enter into
any engagement to bind yourselves by any abstract re-
solution, but I ask you to take the steps put before you
and give us the means of carrying on a just and neces-
sary war, which has been forced on us, by adding to the
the taxation of the country a sum of 10,000,0001., and we
say that it is not an unreasonable effort to make. We
have laid our policy before you, and defended our-
selves against the charges and the imputations thrown out,
and we say it is not unreasonable for you to go to 1798.
Can you not do now what Mr. Pitt and the Englishmen of
that day did then, when the population of the country
was not half so great as in the present day ? Their im-
ports were not one-quarter of the imports of the present
day ; their exports and their trade were not one-third of
the exports of the present day, for where they had an ex-
port of 33,000 0001. you have now an export of 98,000,0 All.
Such is the indomitable vigour, and such the wonderful
elasticity of our trade that, even under the disadvantage
of a bad harvest and under the pressure of war, the im-
ports from day to day, and almost from hour to hour,
are increasing, and the very last papers laid on the table
within 48 hours show that within the last three
months of the year there is 250,0001. increase in your
exports. This is your position, and these are the circum-
stances under which we wish to appeal to you in the hope
that you will consider that appeal just and reasonable. We
leave it in your hands with confidence, believing that the
Parliament and the people of this country will, without
hesitation, pursue that course which their duty may de-
mand. (The right hon. gentleman resumed his seat, after
having spoken for three hours and a half, amid the cheers
of the house.)
The resolutions, in conformity with the right hon. gen-
tleman's speech, were then read by the Chairman.
Mr. DISRAELI said that he could not consent to the
passing of the resolution without a more distinct arrange-
ment than any that had apparently been made for the dis-
cussion of the general question They had had to-night a
very large proposition made by the Minister, involving to a
considerable extent the annual taxation of the country,
and indeed, of taxation, of more than an annual charac-
ter. They had also a plan of what had been called interim
finance, which, in his opinion, required to be carefully
considered. In every instance in which a great scheme of
taxation had been brought forward, a fair opportunity
had always been given for the country to consider it. It
was most unreasonable, after the statement from the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer of several hours, that the House
of Commons should be called on to give any decision either
one way or the other on the measures submitted to them.
He wished, therefore, that the Government would fix a
day for taking the scheme into consideraaion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the uniform course always had been to press at once any
resolution relating to the duty on articles of consumption.
That had always been the case with one exception last
session, the result of a blunder of his own. If that course
were not taken the entire duty would be lost. That rule
had always been acted on, but with the understanding
that every member remained unpledged to the proposal
before them. He spoke in the presence of several mem
hers of great experience on this point, and they could, cor-
rect him if he was wrong.
Mr. DISRAELI thought that the right hon. gentle.
man had evaded the question. There might not be any
doubt as to the rule in such cases, and he should not have
isen if the hon. gentleman had accompanied his request
by fixing a day for the discussion of the subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
his noble friend would fix a day for the discussion.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he would fix that day week
(Monday next) for the discussion.
Mr. DISRAELI said, that of course the resolutions
would be printed.
Lord J. RUSSELL answered in the affirmative.
Mr. T. BARING said that the proposal of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, to the effect that the equalisation of the
spirit duties should come into operation to-morrow (this
day), was inconsistent with the agreement which had been
upon a former occasion entered into—namely, that that
equalisation should not take place until the sth July. The
operation of the resolution of the right hon. gentleman
would be that colonial sugars should pay to-morrow lle.,
whether it was British or foreign produce. The right hon.
gentleman proposed to raise the duty noon colonial sugar
is., while he meant to reduce the duty on foreign sugar by
the same amount. He hoped the right hon. gentleman
would not persist in pressing that resolution.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted
that there was some force in the observations of the hon.
member. At the same time he must observe that in taking
the course which he had proposed for the adoption of the
house, he was acting in strict accordance with precedent.
Mr. HUME entertained some doubt whether the house
was not, in consequence of the act which had been passed
to the effect that the equalisation of the duty upon sugar
was not to take place until July, precluded from effecting
any alteration in that duty until that time had arrived.
Mr. E. BALL was of opinion that the house ought to
pause before any resolution which proposed a considerable
increase in the malt tax should be adopted. The right hon.
gentleman, in bringing forward that resolution, was acting
most unkindly towards the agricultural classes ; and if he
(Mr. Ball) were at all supported by the house, he should
resist the proposition of the right hon. gentleman.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
the best mode of meeting the views of hon. members oppo-
site with respect to the equalisation of the duties upon
sugar would be to move an addition of 15 per cent. to the
present duty, to be raised upon both foreign and colonial
sugar until July. The resolution before the house might
then be brought into operation.
Mr. HUME had some doubt whether the house, if it
were to assent to that course, would not be guilty of a
breach of faith.
Mr. VANCE believed that if the right hon. gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer were to raise the duty
upon Irish spirits beyond its present amount, illicit distil-
lation must to a great extent be the consequence.
Mr. BENTINCK wished to say a few words in support
of the view which had been taken by his hon. friend the
member for Cambridge (Mr. E. Ball), with reference to the
proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in relation to
the malt tax. A more unjust, or a more monstrous propo-
sition never had, in his opinion, been made to the house.
He should not, upon that occasion, go into the details of
the question. He could not, however, refrain from allud-
ing to the observations which bad fallen from the right
hon. geutleman with respect to the justice of the proposi-
tion which provided that all classes of the community
should bear their fair share of the expenses of a war
, which had been undertaken for the benefit of the country
at large. It was scarcely consistent, in his opinion, with
the spirit of those observations that one class, and that a
' class which had not been particularly favoured by legisla-
tion of late years, should be called upon to pay 2,450,0001.
out of 6,800,0001. of taxation.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS gave notice that he should move,
either as an amendment or as a resolution in committee,
the following proposition :—" That the duty upon succes-
sion to real property shall be paid six months, instead of
four years and a half, after the succession, as provided by
the ad of last session ; that the same amount of property
tax shall. be paid upon succession to real property as is now
paid upon'porsonal property ; likewise, that a duty shall
be imposed upon corporate and ecclesiastical property in
the same proportion as that which is now levied upon all
other descriptions of property." If that resolution were
adopted, it was his opinion that the Chancellor of the Ex
chequer would be placed in possession of a sum of 3,000,0001.
sterling within the next three months.
Mr. CRAUFURD was-understood to object to the pro-
posed measure of the spirit duties in Scotland.
The CHAIRMAN then put the first resolution, relating
to the increase of the duty upon spirits, which was agreed

to.
The next resolution, relating to the increase upon the
malt tax, having been put,
Mr. SPOONER said he hoped that in agreeing to the
resolution they would not be supposed to be giving their
assent to the principle that the expenditure of the year
should be raised within the year.
The resolution was then agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN then put the resolution relating to the
increase of the spirit duty in Ireland.
The resolution was agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The in-
come tax resolutions, of course, will stand over. As to the
resolutions in reference to the Exchequer Bonds, I hope
the house will sanction the completion of what Government
have contracted for. I propose to take the first resolution
relative to the Exchequer Bonds, the mode of making them
a charge on the Consolidated Fund, and the payment of
interest on them. The 3d, 6th, 7th, and Bth resolutions, I
shall postpone. The other resolutions I submit to the
house, as it is the uniform practice of the house to give an
immediate judgment on money contracts, when entered
into by the minister.
Mr. DLSRA.ELI—If the resolution is proposed it will
lead to a very long discussion. The merits of the right
hon. gentleman's scheme are involved in it, and it might
be inconvenient to propose it now. I hope the right hon.
gentleman will defer the resolution until the general dis-
cussion.
Lord J. iIIiISSELL—It was important for the public
credit that corttracts of this sort, when laid before the
house, should be sanctioned, or otherwise, at once.
• Mr. DISRAELI—If the resolution is passed without
reference to the general scheme, I shall feel it my duty to
take some further step. The resolution may not be in
conformity with the present practice, but as this resolution
is connected with taxation it requires argument. At pre-
sent, to ask the house to pass the resolution is to ask it
to sanction the raising of a loan by a process which I think
is based upon false principles. The objection of the noble
lord that to postpone the resolution will injure public
credit, Ido not think of very groat importance. No one
can suppme any injury to the public credit can arise from
that course. It might as well be arg.ued that injury to the
public would arise if we did not at once vote all the taxes
required for the supply of her Majesty. Ido not think
there is much strength in such an arem ent. If Govern-
ment insists on passing the resolution it I fear, lead
to a long discussion and an dwebate. I hope,
gentleman will remember his
therefore, that the right hon. gtio
promise, and not press the
.resio
was
Mr. GLYN—The deposit, 00,UUU/epaid into the
Bank this day.
Mr. Riau Tr4s not pimps of the custom, and would,

therefore, appeal to the authority of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. He knew of no authority by which the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer could raise a loan without coming
to th at house. He agreed with the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
Disraeli), that it would be better not to go into discussion
now, for he thought a better mode of raising money might
be suggested than that which had been adopted—namely,
a loan raised without the knowledge or authority of Par-

liament. (Hear.)
Sir C. WOOD—The universal practice was for a Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer to make a loan, and then to come
to Parliament for its sanction. The practice was an inva-
riable one, and therefore in perfect conformity with the
precedents of former times. When I held the post of Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, I raised a small loan in 1847 that
way. It is the usual custom for the First Lord of the
Treasury to enter into arrangement with parties for a loan
subject to the approval of Parliament. (Hear, hear). It
was quite wrong to say that it was necessary the sanction
of Parliament should first be given to a loan.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—the ques-
tion was one as to sanctioning a contract on the part of
Government ; with regard to the practice, the present
course is strictly analogous to previous proceedings. By
the First Lord of tho Treasury a contract has been entered
into, and it is brought to Parliament to adopt or reject it.
Parliament are free to reject the contract if they think fit,
but the invariable practice is to adopt the contract then
and there. Parliament never allows such contracts to re-
main in suspense, but they come to a vote at once when
the question is before them. The only deviation from the
usual practice is this, that, whereas it was the practice for
Chancellors of the Exchequer to make the contract known
for the first time when they laid the matter before Parlia-
ment, I circulated the resolution in the course of the day,
and hon. rnetohers have had time to consider it fully before
they vote upon itt• The practice of Parliament ought not,.
I think, to be light,ly altered. The Louse may discuss the
question, and may ccnsure the minister if they think fit,
but the practice has ai ways been to adopt or reject the con-

tract at once.
Mr. HUME—What u," understood to be the practise
was that the Chancellor of C'e Exchequer made a contract,
but did not receive money till allowed to do so by Parlia-
ment. In this case money had been received, and his ob-
jections was that the house had mever till now heard that
any payment had been made. The former practice was by
tender, and when a person was accepted, the fact was an-
nounced in the presence of the partics. He understood
no such course had been adopted in the present instance.
Parties knew nothing as to the tender— the public knew
nothing about the tender. He was sure ne.' instance had
occurred where money was taken without first coming to
that house since he had been in Parliament. Whenever
established rules were departed from they were sure to go
wrong.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
first resolution.
Mr. HUME wished to know what the tender was. ?
Mr. DISRAELI—The precedent quoted did not apply
to this case. In 1847 no deposit was made until the .sanc-
tion of Parliament to the loan had been given. (Hear..)
Sir C. WOOD believed it was the uniform practice. to
have a deposit at the time of making the contract.
Mr. DISRAELI had noticed the point, but his maim
objection did not rest upon it. There was no identity or
analogy in raising money by loan and the case before them.
By this resolution the right hon. gentleman not only raised
a loan, but ho fixed a day for its repayment. The right
hon. gentleman came forward and proposed taxes for the
purpose of repayment ; therefore, if the house was called
upon to sanction the resolution at that moment, the whole
scheme must be gone into. The principle of raising money
by loan and fixing a day for repayment was an extremely
dangerous one, and he thought the house ought not to
sanction it. Therefore, he must say he should feel it to
be his duty to prevent the house from coming ko a vote
by proposing some amendment which would virtu ally ask
the house to suspend the resolution until they .`gad the
whole scheme before them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—As to the
question of any deviation from former practices, there ',veil
a difficulty in ascertaining what the former practice wt.'s.
Strange as it might seem there was no record precedent
for the guidance of Government—memory was depended
upon for the details, which were to be collected as best
they could. No doubt his right hon. friend was right in
saying that the usual practice was to open tenders in the
presence of the parties themselves. On the present occa-
sion the tenders were to be as low as 1,0001., and on ac-
count of the number of tenders it would have been incon-
venient to have all the parties present. The terms of the
contract sent out to the world were according to usage ;
the only change was that instead of the tenders being
opened in the presence of the governor and deputy-gover-
nor of the Bank of England and the party, they warn
opened in the presence of the Bank authorities only, and.
the result was made known to the parties who tendered
the following morning. There was no disposition on his
part to take the control of these matters out of the hands
of Parliament. Government were responsible for what
they tendered to the house, and the house were not bound
by what Ministers did. Parties tendered on their own
risk, and as it had always been the practice for the house
to give judgment of such contracts on the moment, he was.
convinced the house would not deviate from a salutary
practice.
Mr. T. BARING did not think the right hon. gentleman
would be damaged by t lking the sense of the house on the
question ; on th contrary, the discussion would very much
facilitate the conclusion. The right hon. gentleman had
referred to France, the Government of which had raised
money by public subscription ; but it must be recollected
that the principle was first sanctioned by legislative autho-
rity, and then submitted to the public; but in this case
the right hon. gentleman submitted it to the public, and then
came to Parliament for its sanction. In the first instance,
the experiment was successful, in the last it was the lea..
verse. Ho presumed the right hon. gentleman did not.
mean to issue immediately more bonds than would cover
the deposit.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would, at a
future day, bring the resolutions before the committee.
Mr. HILDYARD asked the house to consider what they
were about. It was said this was a formal vote, which
did not pledge the house to anything, and that the house
were not, by the vote, bound to accede to the terms which
had been contracted for. But this was not a formal vote.
He was satisfied, if it passed, the house would be concluded
by it ; and if so, were the house to come to a decision ma
such an important matter on so short a consideration of it ?'
No one would be prejudiced by a short delay—say a week
—for the interest would be running on, and parties would
take it from this data. If no one else came forward he
should take the sense of the house on the question of de-
ferring the resolution.
Lord J. RLTSSELL said the question was, whether the
house would depart:-
from established precedent. What he
proposed was, that th
resolution shall be reported at half-
past, four o'clock to-mori'°w
(this day), and that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer slit:
old afterwards introduce a bill,
which would be considered ..`7 the house on Monday, in
conjunction with the rest of al.' financial measures of the
Government.
pro,
a reasonable one,
Mr. DISRAELI thought that pro
and he was prepared to assent to it.
The resolution was then agreed to prlo forma, and the
house resumed.
The Militia Bill and the Exchequer Bills (16,024,1001.)
Bill, as amended, were severally considered.
The report of supply was brought up and agreed to.
The County Court Extension Act Amendment Bill and
the Boundary Survey (Ireland) Bill were read each a third
time and passed.
In reply to a question from Colonel BLAIR,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he proposed to make the fartbesr
consideration of the Scotch Education Bill the first order
of the day for Friday next.
CROWN FORESTS.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND moved for a select committee to
inquire into the present management and condition of the
Crown forests in England, with a view of ascertaining the
responsibility of the present commissioners, and whether
it would be for the public interest that some of the smaller
forests - should be sold as being unfit for the growth of
timber for her Majesty's navy.
Mr. HUME expressed his approval of the motion. Ile
believed that if those lands were sold, they would realise
a sum sufficient to meet all the expenses of the CroWo.
He (Mr. Hume) hoped, therefore, the hon. gentleman
would proceed with his motion for a committee.
The motion was agreed to.
MA.NNING AND PAYING THE NAVY.

Sir J. GRAHAM moved for leave to bring in a bill for'
the encouragement of seamen, and the more effectual
manning of her Majesty's navy during the present war.
Also a bill for facilitating the payment of her Majesty's
navy, and the payment and distribution of prize, bounty,
salvage, and other moneys, to and amongst the officers and
crews of her Majesty's ships and vessels of war, and for the
better regulation of the accounts relating thereto. They
first bill was a prize bill, similar to all former prize bills,
with the exception that it male the scale more favourable
to the common sailors. It would, of course, end with the
war. The second was proposed to be of a.permanent cha-
racter.
After a few words from Mr. Deedes, Sir J. Pecl.tellt
Mr. Otway, Sir G. Tyler, and Captain Scobell,
Leave was given to bring in the bills.
NEWSPAPER STAMPS.
Sir J. V. SHELLEY moved for a return of the titles,
names, and addresses of publishers ; and of the weight,.
and dates of registration, of all registered newspapers,,
whereof a portion was published without stamps.
Mr. HAYTER said there was no means of snaking the
returns asked for by the hon. member.
Mr. BRIGHT said all that was wanted was whatever'
information the department possessed.
Mr. HAY TER could assure the hon. gentleman there
was no objection to give as much information as possible ;
but if this return were to be made it should be quite coil-
j ectural.
Mr. HENLEY said that if the return were based on,
data, however limited, it could not be conjectural. (Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. CRA.sam,
The house divided—
For the motion 36
Against
The house adjourned at a quarter to 12 o'clock.