The Sun.
London, England, 1838-07-20 00:00:00

::a.; ether Meintier. The plan which had beer, originally pro-
-00,•eil to the Coairnitt-e gas to convert the tithe composition
into rant sold to rest all fu ore payments on that
f:nsiiiiation. It was said, and said with great truth, that if the
question were i:ut in that situation, there would ensue not only
rat diff,,iulties. but ,rreat deterioration, of property et: the
ow hand and on the ether : I resistance to the pay-
inent. It was ei li the intent i,sn of Avei:ling those evils that
it was now proo• Fed to r..eiit th, 040 0001., and to .jve
for the ..f Cie a•s. Now. the stay
which the R:gl.t Hen. Barnet p.is d t.. gise these
sues would leave it ootio.al wish the clergymen to accert of
t:ar, zdvo.-ice, and in case of Isis rettisni the suns ,
•egually strong the other The of the
clergynian would thus remain in full force and the
Government would have power to enforce them. in his
(Lord J. Russell's) opinion, when they ilid make a sacrifice of
public money, as :as proposed in the present resolution, ihey
ii should .ake it in such a svay as ti prevent the r. p tition of
such contests as that g •ant was intended to aholish —( [hist%)
If the proposition of the Right 'Hon. Baronet wire acceded
to, every attempt would still be made to collect the arrear, and
it would only he when the clergyman found his claim despe-
rate that he would apply to Government. They would thus
he giving a greater premium to resistance than by any other
plan or legislation they could adopt, because it would be only
i t the cases where resistance was made, and where it was most
successful, that the clergyman would ask relief from Govern-
ment. .13ut the Right Hon. Baronet wished to keep the claim
alive, and leave with the Government power to enforce it.
NVhy, it' the present Government wished to enforce the pay-
ment of those arrears, would they not incur all the difficulties
which the Noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire, had
incurred in a similar attempt ?—( Heat.) Those who hail for
ttree years successfully resisted the payment of tithes, would
not now submit without a large force of police-and military to
enforce payment. It was, therefore, that, if the plan of the •
lion. Baronet should he adopted, they would, on the
om; hand, be making the sacrifice objected to, of the public
money • , no.. of England, but of the United Kingdom, in order
to satisfy the tithe owner; while, on the other, they would fail
in producing that tranquillity which, in his opinion, formed the
only justification fur such a sacrifice. With regard to those
who should not receive the arrear—who might calculate on
the chance of recovering 70 percent, where the Bill only pro-
mised them 50—in such cases they would be keeping up ';he
contest between the clergyman and the tithep”er, and thus
preclude all hope of tranquil arrangement. It was to avoid
this that Government, in proposing to grant the money, pro.
posed also to put an end to ail right of demanding, the ar-
rears; and to adopt such mode of collection for the. future as
would prevent the collision which had hitherto occurred. He
should certainly not consider himself justified in proposing any
grant of the public money, to be disposed of in the way sug-
gested by the Right Hon. Baronet, which was to grant a very
large sum of money, on the one hand, to effect tb.e settlement
of arrears ; and on the other, to leave it optional with any in.
discreet individual to blow again into a flame tb at resistence
which always attended any attempt to collect tithe arrears. At
the same time he (Lord J. Russell) must confess thrt what
the Right Hon. Gentleman now stated with regard to leis views
respecting the clause now proposed was perfectly fair on his
part, and entirely in conformity with what he stated en the first
night of the discussion. With respect to that point, Govern-
ment and the Right Hon. Gentleman were at issue. He (Lord
J. Russell) (lid not wonder that the Right Hon. Gentleman
should maintain his point, but that should not indu'ae him ( Lord
J. Russell) to change his'own opinion on the subje ct.—( Hear. )
The Hon. and Learned Member for Southw ark, who had
made a most eloquent and able speech to-niglet, certainly fell
into a mie-statement in saying that Government only went to
a certain extent—an extent merely calculatr.d to create dissa-
tisfaction, in this proposal. He ( Lord J, Russell) thought
that the proposal contained in the Government plan would go
not only very far to restore the peace of Ireland, but, al-
though in some point it may be said to be a violent measure,
as extinguishing the rights of private property, it would, in as
far as the arrears were concerned, settle them much more com-
pletely than the plan of the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth.
The Honourable and Learned Member for Southwark had, no
doubt, very ably stated his objection to this plan, as he had on
a former occasion stated his views on the appropriation clause ;
but he would observe to that Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
that it was not extremely difficult in the present complicated
state of Irish affairs, for any one who was not himself in a re-
sponsible position, to find objections to any plan proposed by
others.--( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
would reject every plan, utterly indifferent as to the cetese-
quences of such rejection, or as to whether any other plan
could be substituted.—( Hear, hear.) He (Lord J. Peassell)
could not refrain from admiring that Hon. and Learived Gen-
tleman's ability, but he thought it would be acting rgith great
imprudence to follow his advice, and not to coeisider that,
whatever his views might be, their business was to come to
some practical conclusion—to make some arrorgement that,
for a time at least, might improve the affaios of Ireland.—
( Hear.) The Hon. Member who spoke last, the Hee. Mem-
ber for London, had quoted with great commendation a speech
delivered by the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth in 1834,
in which that Right Hon. Gentleman stated that of all the
expedients of a Government, the most vulgar was that of dip-
ping its hand in the public purse. No doubt the Right Hon.
Gentleman did make that statement which had been so popu-
lar ever since, but certainly he did not observe his own maxims
when he himself held the public purse strings : then his plans
were more in conformity with the present proposition, be-
, cause he (Lord John Russell) could remember that one of
his propositions while in office was, that the whole of the mil.-
, lion should be given for the satisfaction of Irish tithe arreaee.
With regard to Scotland, also, the Right Hon. Gentleman
proposed the grant of a large sum for the benefit of the
Scotch Church ; and in England he - proposed deeeeting
soother large sum from the Consolidated Fund or the Seepplies
for the relief of county rates.---( Ministerial cheers.) There-
fore, however good the maxims of the Right Honoure:es, Gen-
tleman were, he (Lord John Russell) preferred fo'dowing his
practice, which was quite of a different nature Hear.)
With these opinions, and seeing, as lie undoubt, idly did, ob-
jections to the plan reovv proposed, yet still, 'on the whole.
fearing the evils that must ensue on any attetaipt to collect
these arrears, which evils had been stated so powerfully, and
he believed, no less truly, by the representraive from Ireland,
he did not conceive that an equivalent good might be obtn'esed
by the sacrifice of this amount of public money sufficient to
justify its expenditure. His Hon. Friend, the Meralser for
Sheffield, in languaee not dissimilar to that used by tlee Hon.
Member for London, asserted that they could have no well
grounded hope of settling these Irish questions, hawing given
up the appropriation clause, that they could not ex- pect a good
Municipal Bill, and that, therefore, it would be bi,tier to give
up all. Now he must say that lie did not agree v :ith the Hon.
Member in that opinion. It would, no doubt, be a very easy
course to give up the Irish Tithe Bill, on the
grounds that
they could not obtain all they wished, or to ot!,ect to the Mu-
nicipal Bill because it was hot all they exr.ected ; but before
they did so, they should ascertain whethee'next year, or the
year following, they were likely to carry any
'measure
more beneficial than that they were now rejecting.
He thought they were bound to consider bath with re-
spect to this measure, and any other merieure relating
to Ireland, what there the plans which it was likely
they should be able to carry ? If spelt measures tended in the
sl'ghtest degree to improve the condition of Ire land—if they
even did not make things worse—if they t( olc her a single
step out of the bad state in which she stood: at present—he
certainly for one should consider himself entitled to adopt
them.-_( Hear, hear.) He did riot think it would be his duty
to carry on a contest either in that House or with the other
Eloise with rrspect to Irish measures, unloss he saw that he
was likely to obtain by delay an improvers) ent in the measures
themselves. He had no doubt that his Hose Friend the Illeme
t, ,se ;.red
consider
egovernment
si
situation
of that
tle u
tier for Sheffield would differ with Isim in this v'Aew--.
with persons
ty
teas e
t 1
, that many would consider his course wreng—but it did r,eem to
tatoJ ecoounn:
him
firstthat e
try. —( neer, hear.) That it was their duty not to shrink
from personal reproach, if, by submitting to it, the condition
of the country could be improved, or by shrinking front it that
condition might be made worse. Having these opinions he
should attempt, to the utmost of his power, to improve
such measures as might be brought forward, to put them in
the hest practice' shape, but he should prefer reconciling hint-
elf to their adoption rather than to seeking a reason for re-
sistance.—( Cheers. )
Sir R. INGLIS greatly preferrel the proposition of W.
Right Hon. Friend to that of the Government. The sum
proposed to be given by the Government plan was inadequate,
and should not go to deprive the clergyman of his legal right.
For these reasons lie should vote for the proposition of big
Right Hon. Friend.
Mr. WARBURTON said that if there was any likelihood
of security, or even of truth, arising, he would consent to the-
present mode of adjustment. But, in his opinion, the course'
proposed by Government only held out a premium for resist-.
:owe to the law. Taking this view, he certainly thought thr
neither Whigs nor Tories were dealing fairly with the qua 1
lion. In has opinion, if they wished to indulge in the hob' 91
of supporting the Irish clergy, they should introduce the s, ,t 0 required fur their support into the budget, and ask an ann rod vote fir the purpose; that would be dealing fairly with the
people of England.--( Hear, hear.) He was willing the stun
required should go in the budget; but he did not think the.pre-
soot plan tended to arty permanent settlement of the question•
Lord 110 WICK believed it was from the natural IP.istility
that it Lege population differing from the establishmint felt
to the appropriation of a large sum levied from the property
of Ireland for the support of a Church, the doctrines of which
were professed by so small a minority of the population, that
dillietiltie.,3 of collecting tithes in Ireland had arisen. Those
dilliceities had been telt by every succeeding Government.
He remembered that when the Gallant Member for Laun—
ceston brought forward his Tithe Bill, he (Lord Howick) was
informed by a friend not now in Parliament (Mr. Brownlaw)
that it would fail, because the objection existing in Ireland ttv„,,
the collection of tithes was to their purpose, not the mole of
collection. In 1835 he saw the realization of that prediction'
hear, hear. ) The resistance had continued ever since.
Mouldy deled it, and be felt convinced that the time
t come y deplored tt, rind hui felt conviptied tuist the ti
ii &tuhd yi't come when questions of graver .mportunce than this
ith reference to the Irish Church wen'iti come to be agitated'
Ile believed that the certainty the'. the House of Comte"!
re
sympathized with the Peolile of I:eland on this great subject
ha! produced most useful 'efeCls in that country—nay, that
even with regard to the collection of tithes, it had not been
tt ithout its ii,lvatm-
res --( hear.) The very essence
of constitutieses ear'
Government was to be carried en .
contoi ntey •
eoh the wishes of the people, and for t.
reae.si e felt cotiv;riced that, although no legisletr
enactment had followed the resolution of 1835, yet that. great,.
gore', had resulted, es showing- the yeeple of Ireland that t2eld
Gevereenent and the British House of Commons syeripatb,ni-tee
w'stla them on subject in which they took the eseepest
'wet. "1 hese were his views with resect to the; appropria,ion
„„
clause. He should now apply himself' to th,.: question be'',
mong7
the Howse_ he meant the proposal to grant a sum of