The Sun.
London, England, 1854-12-22 00:00:00

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44.74.474
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1 different stores and articles safely and accurately to their
several destinations.
Lord ABINGER begged to suggest to the noble duke
to establish at Balaklava some office for the dist ribu-
tion and delivery of goods consigned to the army. At
present officers experienced the greatest difficulty in
getting the goods and parcels that were consigned to
them. This difficulty might be judged of from the
fact that the baggage of the army had arrived in the
Crimea, and had not been distributed up to this very
moment ; it was tossing somewhere about the Black
Sea, but nobody knew exactly where, and there was
no responsible person to undertake its delivery. Nei.
ther was there a sufficient train of baggage waggons
attached to the army.

The Duke of NEWCASTLE wished to say that he
had already made an arrangement of the nature and for
the end suggested, tkough whether it had been successful
or not he was unable to state. About four or five months
ago, finding that the commissariat would not be able to
manage this department satisfactorily, he applied to his
right hon. friend Sir Thomas Fremantle, the chairman
of the Zoard of Customs, to select six or eight landing
waiters who should undertake the conduct of this duty.
They had been accordingly appointed and sent out,
being made a branch of the commissariat, with uni-
forms, in the hope that, by their aid, confusion and
inaccuracies in the baggage department might be obvi-
ated. How far the arrangement had effected this objeot
he could not undertake to say, but he should not omit
to make inquiry on this head also.
The conversation then dropped, and their lordships
adjourned at half-past ten o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.)
ENLISTMENT OF FOREIGNERS BILL.
Upon clause 1 being put,
Mr. L. KING moved the following
proviso—" That no
contract with foreign soldiers shall be latulblaunfodreratnhve
provisions of which this country shall be
payments, excepting to officers disabled by wounds
caco.
continue beyond the period of one year after the
tion of a definitive treaty of peace."
Mr. S. HERBERT said that it was not the intention of
the Government to give pensions, but merely half-pea to
those who were wounded, and also to the widows, and he
begged of the hon. gentleman to withdraw his proviso.
Mr. S. KNOX wished to know whether these foreign
soldiers would be entitled to receive aid from the Patriotic
Fund ?
Mr. S. HERBERT—They certainly would not come
under the terms of the commission authorising the Pa-
triotic Fund, which was ()entailed to tha giving of posainyta
to the widows and children of soldiery in the existing Bri-
tish army in the East, and it would be a breach of faith
towards the subscribers to apply it to any other purpose.
Mr. S. KNOX wished to know from what foreign conn•
try these soldiers were to be obtained. (Laughter.) Would
they be Irish ?
Mr. W. WILLIAMS galled the attention of the Govern-
ment to the necessity of carefully examining every inven-
tion in the machinery of war which was submitted to
them. Tho proposals on this subject were usually referred
to a committee of engineers, who would not see anything
worthy of merit in them. All experiments ought to be
fairly tried. One individual had an invention by which
he declared that one man at the battle of Inkerman would
do as much execution as eight. It was also found that the
percussion caps would not explode when they became
damp. Now there was an invention in percussion caps
which was tested by experiment, the result of which was
that, whereas the ordinary percussion cap would not ex-
plode when wet, the improved percussion cap exploded
after being under water for 24 hours.
Mr. F. SCOTT wished to know, as there seemed to be
some misapprehension oa the subject, whether officers
would be entitled to half-pay under this bill.
Mr. S. HERBERT—Certainly not. There should be
Parliamentary sanction or Queen's warrant to enable offi-
cers to receive half-pay. Neither existed in the present case.
Mr. HENLEY wished to know what would be the posi-
tion of the wives and children of the men who enlisted
under the bill. As he understood the law they would have
to be supported by the ratepayers of this country. (Hear.)
The Germans who were so frequently mentioned, coming
to this country for the purpose of emigration, would
be accompanied in many cases by their wives and child-
ren, and if the men enlisted in the service of this country,
the wives and children would be chargeable on the parish
of the port from which they embarked. Being denaturalised
by their own sovereigns; they could not be sent back again,
and he wished to know whether they were to be main-
tained out of the national fund, or out of the the rates of
Hull, Liverpool, or Portsmouth, or from wherever else
their husbands embarked.
Mr. S. HERBERT said the question was a very im-
portant one. At the time of the formation of the German
Legion, the wives and children of the men remained at
home, so that this question did not arise. But in the case
of German emigrants being taken as recruits at present
the Government would of course, on account of the diffi-
culty'euggerited by the right hon. gentleman, select single
men. If there were married men whose services from their
eligibility it would be desirable to secure, their wives and
children might preceded them to the colonies to which
they were going.
Mr. HENLEY said that the facilities of communication
were much greater now than formerly, and no doubt they
would be accompanied by their wives and children
to a much greater extent. The thirty thousand
Germans who came here annually were said to be
between 25 and 30 years of age. They were therefore not
mere boys, and they could not imagine 30,000 of such men
without having many wives and children. (Hear, hear,
and laughter.) As sure as the sun was in heaven the wives
and children of the men would find their way to this coun-
try, where there was a right of maintenance, whereas there
was none in their own country. (Hear, hear.) He hoped
the Government would consider the question, which was
admitted to be an important one, before the third reading
of the bill, and inform the country how these people were
to he dealt mith. (Hoar. hear.)
Mr. R. PUILLIMORE thought that the right hon. gen-
tleman was right in the view he took. If a foreign state
gave letters of denaturalisation to a portion of its sub-
jects, those persons ceased to be the subjects of that state.
If they entered the service of another state, that state was
bound to defend and protect them in all the subsequent
condition of their lives. (Hear.) If that was a correct view
of the law, the Government ought to consider its bearings
on the present case. (Hear.) •
Sir J. PAKINGTON said he understood the right hon.
gentleman to say that it was intended by the Government
that the wives and children should, in some instances, pre-
cede their husbands to the colonies to which they meant to
go. He did not understand the right hon. gentleman to
say that it was intended to send these soldiers ultimately to
the colonies, though he heard rumours out of doors to that
effect. This was the first public reference in the house with
regard to the sending them to the colonies. He was justi-
fied, therefore, in calling on the Government to explain
what their intentions really were. (Cheers.)
Mr. S. HERBERT said that the right hon. gentleman
slightly misunderstood the expression he used when he said
it was the intention of the Government to send so many of
these persons to the colonies out of the whole number they
might get. He was informed that it would be possible to
obtain the services of a certain number of Germans who
were in the habit of coming to this country for the purpose
of emigrating to Canada, the United States, or Australia.
But ho was not speaking of the gross number, nor did he
mean to say that they were to consist of that or any
other denomination of persons. The Government might
obtain the services of persons in transitu, and after those
services were over, he saw no greater reason against their
going to the colonies than if their services were not asked
for in the intermediate time. Of course no Government
would think of sending out a large body of men to the
colonies against the will or without the consent of the
colonies. But the right hon. gentleman must be well
aware that there was great anxiety in Australia to obtain
German settlers, especially from the banks of the Rhine,
with a view to the cultivation of the vine and the making
of wine. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DRUMMOND said it appeared that the only defini-
tive idea the right Lou. gentleman had was to set a gin
trap and catch some Germans in transitu, but when a man
set a gin he ran an equal chance of taking a pheasant or a
polecat. (Laughter.) The question of the right hon. mem-
ber for Oxford (Mr. Henley) was a very serious one. In
Bavaria, and in some of the neighbouring petty states, a
most cruel and wicked law was in force, which prevented
persons from marrying until they gave security for the
support portof the future family; the result was that not one
in eight of the labouring population were legally married,
and many questions of that kind would arise regarding
persons enlisted under the bill. He considered that these
Men were entitled to their half pay, otherwise they would
be nothing but national assassins. (Hear.) What was an
assassin but a person hired to stab or murder any one that
you had a quarrel with? Not to give these men a retiring
allowance was to set a premium on plunder. How were
they to subsist in peace if they got no half pay • they could
not ho expected to save money out of their allowance. Ho
thought Government ought to put them on the same foot-
ing as our own countrymen, and give them half pay
Mr. S. HERBERT reminded the hon. gentleman that
our own men were not entitled to half pay till after a cer•
tain number of years' service.
Mr. BANKES thought the question raised by the right
honourable member for Oxford was one of great import-
ance to the ratepayers of the country. In justice to the
men they should support their families, and he thought
the bill ought not to pass this committee until the point
was fully considered..
Mr. V. SMITH would sugof War
gest to the Secretary
that some very grave colonial questions were involved in
thepri: oposed scheme of emigration.
m
BOOKER wished to know where these men were to
be located whether in the manufacturing or the rural dis-
tricts ; great anxiety existed on the point. In the former
acts there was a provision that they should not be gua:4
to r-
tai..,l at a greater distance than 5 miles from the seaeoa.
Mr. S. KNOX asked if it was intended send these
regiments
troops
there,
r.trn
,ii,:,
iciolontiheseytwo
erelieve
be the
was no intention. of
Mr. S. HERBERT said that there officered English i
officered by Ger.
ast war the German legion was wholly
sending them to the colonies. As to the officers, in the
1.
mans.
Mr. OTWAY suggested to the Secretary of War the
propriety of employing the officers on thehalf-pay list ; a
largo
number of them were able and willing to servo,
Mr. GROGAN said that these Germans would not be
well received in the colonies. In Germany it wan Coll•
si.lered a disgrace to enlist for pay, and a stigma would
always attach to the men.
Mr. F. SCOTT thought that before the discussion p
ceeded the Secretary at War ought to answer some of the
important questions that had been put to him.
Mr. S. HERBERT would endeavour to give as much
information as possible. As to the officers, he had not in-
tended to express any ;
decision as to English or German
officers ; he only quoted a precedent ; it was a question
which should be left to the discretion of the military no.
thorities. It was a mistake to suppose that there were a
large number of available officers on the half-pay list ;it
had been closely scrutinised when the army was augmented
some time since, and ho believed that every officer fit for
active service wes then employed. As to the location of
these troops he did not anticipate there would be any dif-
ficulty: in finding places in England to receive them for
the short time they would remain. As to the emigra-
tion ho did not mean to
convey that the Government
bad come to any conclusion on the subject ; he only stated
that it had been represented to him by persons conversant
with the German emigration that as a large number of
these people annually passed through this country, some of
them might be induced to serve for a limited period, on
the understanding that they would afterwards Le conveyed
to their destbiation. It had been truly said that very im-
portant colonial questions were involved—great difficulties
must necessarily arise ; and it might be that, when they
came to consider the details of the plan, it would be found
impossible to work it.
Colonel DTJNNE considered that the families of these
men ought to be supported by the Government, and not
left, to the charity of the country, as these of our own
soldiers were. (Hear, hear.) As to the half-pay, he