The Sun.
London, England, 1854-03-15 00:00:00

petitions against the bill, aud, under these circumstane ed
he did not think he was anticipating too much when he
ventured to hops that their lordship would give it a
second reading. Should they do so, he intended imm e•
diately to have it referred to a select earximittee, for, as
he had been obliged to draw up the bill in a very sh ort
time, ho thought there ware several of its details which
might be altered, and clauses that should he added to it
in committee. Their lordships would have an opp ortu-
nity, also, of considering in committee whether this mea-
sure should apply to both personal and real property, as
recommended, and in his opinion wisely so, by the com-
missioners. (Hear, hear.) His lordship concluded by
moving the second reading of the bill.
Lord BROUGHAM said that, about 20 years ago, a
measure, in some respect similar to the present one, had
been submitted to the consideration of their lordships,
one of the objects of such measure being the transfer of
testamentary jurisdiction. Since that period, and espe-
cially of late years, lie was happy to say that the Court
of Chancery had greatly improved, owing not only to the
measures which had been introduced to reform its abuses
and extend its usefulness, and to the increase of the
number of the courts that were opened, but also, in a
great measure, to the orders which had been drawn up
and promulgated by his noble and learned friend (Lord
St. Leonard's). He confessed, however, that he had some
difficulties in seeing how in the Court of Chancery suffi-
cient time could be spared for and devoted to the effec-
tual carrying out of the extra amount of labour which
this bill would entail, and he hoped, at any rate, that in
order to lighten such labour oral evidence would be sub-
stituted in the place of written. (Hear.) As a proof of
the amount of time that was necessarily required for the
consideration of business of this nature, lie might adduce
the opinion of a very learned authority upon the subject
(Sir J. Nicholl), who had stated that he was employed
60 days out of the year in the hearing of the cases in
court, and 180 days out of the year in the consideration
of the same cases out of court, and at his own house ;
making in all 240 days, or, in fact, the whole legal year,
that he had found it necessary to devote to the conside-
ration of these cases. He hoped, also, that some pro-
vision would be suggested and carried out for the safety
and protection of wills, many of which were now lost
and destroyed, he would not say by fraud, but simply
by accident, and many were almost necessarily deposited
with persons who had no interest to keep them safe and
produce them when necessary, and might have probably,
on the contrary, every inducement to let them be lost, or
at any rate take no trouble to produce them. (Hear.)
He could relate hundreds of cases, in which wills had
been lost through accident or carelessness, but he would
content himself with stating two instances in which
wills, supposed to have been lost, or not to be existing,
afterwards came to light ; and the chances of destruc-
tion that these wills hadincurred would illustrate, he
hoped, his meaning as to a safe place of deposit being
required for such documents. The first case was one in
which one of his noble friends, as heir-at-law, lost, and
another of his noble friends, as devisee, gained 30,0001.
a-year, and how the first lost it, and the last gained
it, was by a will being found in an old rusty box in an
old travelling carriage, and which, therefore, might
have been lost by accident or destroyed from ignorance ;
and yet upon which so large an amount of property de-
pended. The second case was one, also, in which some
of his noble friends were concerned, and the sum in ques-
tion was no less than 160,0001. ; which sum would have
been entirely lost to the purposes for which it was in-
tended, if the inquiries relative to the existence of a will
with respect to it had been instituted in the winter in-
stead of in the summer. The will was searched for
everywhere, but could nowhere be found, until, at last,
it was discovered in a grate, and stuffed like a piece of
waste paper through the bars, so, that, as he said before,
if it had been winter instead of summer, in all probability
when the fire had been lighted it would have been de-
stroyed. He could produce many such cases, but he
thought that he had stated sufficient to show their lord-
ships the necessity for some place of safety for the de-
posit of wills. (Hear, hear.) There was one consequence
attendant upon this measure, which could not be too
deeply deplored or too sincerely regretted, and that was,
the loss and injury it would inevitably entail on proctors
and advocates—a class of men who had earned by indus-
try and zeal the honourable position which they held,
and who were in every way deserving of the deepest con-
sideration. He hoped, with respect to this class of gen-
tlemen, that their lordships would not hesitate to consi-
der what might be a fair and honourable compensation
to them ; and, in the consideration of the same, he had
every reason to believe that their lordships would not
allow these gentlemen to suffer an injustice out of any
regard for what might be considered, but which never
proved to be, an economy in such matters. (Hear.)
After a few words from the Bishop of ST. ASAPH,
Lord HARROWBY, and Lord FEVERSHAM,
Lord ST. LEONARD'S said he was inclined to think
that it would be very desirable if the business to be trans-
ferred to the Court of Chancery could be kept together ;
and that it would not be desirable, if it could be avoided,
to let every judge of the Court of Chancery have a por-
tion of that business, just as it might happen. He ap-
prehended, however, that it would be very easy to
make arrangements in the Court of Chancery which
might accomplssh all that was required. The judges of
appeal did not appear to him to be very likely, for some
time to come, to have any great pressure of business
upon them. The number of appeals at present was
very small, and there was no reason to suppose that it
would increase. The great pressure which hail hitherto
existed upon the Court of Chancery had been occasioned
by business of a temporary nature. The Winding-up
Acts, for instance, and railway bills had occasioned a
very great resort to the Court of Chancery ; but that
was fast disappearing, and lie believed it would be found
that the Court, as now constituted, had more judicial
power than was necessary for the transaction of its ordi•
nary business. His noble and learned friend, in allu-
sion to a distinguished judge, had stated that he occu-
pied three days in considering cases out of court for
every day that he was occupied in court. He (Lord St.
Leenards) could only say that every other judge with
whom he was acquainted never had, whatever might
have been the pressure of business, a single day afforded
him in addition to the days of sitting, but had to eke
out the time as best he could from the hours of the night
for the consideration of cases out of court. His noble
and learned friend had likewise stated, that that excel-
lent person, instead of hearing the evidence in court,
took it home and read it there. He thought that there
must be a mistake in that statement, because anything
more repugnant to justice, or that could prove more
fatal to the suitor, he had never heard. (Hear, hear.)
It was most essential that the evidence should be heard
in open court and before the full bar ; and those persons
very much misunderstood the objects and duties of a
bar who,fancied that they had no weight and use beyond
the addresses which they delivered to the court. He
should not enter into the details of the measure. As
at present advised, he was in favour of its principle and
of the transfer to the Court of Chancery ; but it must
depend very much upon its state when it should come
out of the committee whether or not he should be able
to support the details of the bill. He thought it was a
most unwise step to bring real estate within the opera-
tion of the measure. He could not sit down without
expressing his regret at the necessity for breaking into
the practice of very learned persons whose whole lives
had been devoted to their profession. (Hear.) A case
of greater hardship could not be conceived, but at the
same time he thought it would be utterly impossible for
them to give advocates and barristers compensation in
respect of changes in legislation which might lead to a
loss of their practice. He would, however, suggest that
some preference might be given to the present advocates
by allowing them a right to preaudience in the Court of
Appeal with regard to testamentary matters ; but this
would be a subject for future consideration.
Lord WYNFORD, who spoke in a very inaudible
tone, said that he should have preferred the establish-
ment of a court expressly for this testamentary juris-
diction.

The Earl of DONOUGHIIORE was of opinion that
this bill would inflict great injustice on two most de-
serving classes of men—viz., the advocates and the
proctors ; and he could not understand why this should
not be a fit case for compensation. He offered no
opinion with regard to the general scope of the measure ;
but, if this change was to be introduced for the purpose
of obtaining► a great public advantage, the noble and
learned lord who proposed it was bound to see that he
did not inflict a private wrong by means of it.
After a few words from the LORD CHANCELLOR and
Lord BROUGHAM in reply,
The bill was read a second time and ordered to be re.
ferred to a select committee.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (8,000,0001.) BILL.
On the motion of Earl GRANVILLE, this bill passed
through committee.
VENTILATION AND LIGHTING OF THE
HOUSE.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE moved for the ap-
pointment of a select committee to inquire into the pos-
sibility of improving the ventilation and the lighting of
the house, and the contiguous chambers, galleries, and
passages.
The motion was agreed to, and the committee was
nominated by the noble marquis.
Their lordships then adjourned at 8 o'clock.

HOUSE —(RYESS.TERDAY.)
OFECXOCMISMN
EXCISE
COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.)
RETURNS.
On the motion of Mr. COWAN, the following re-
turns were ordered :—Returns of the number of officers
of excise under the rank of a supervisor employed in
England, Scotland, and Ireland respectively, in the year
1848, and subsequent years. Of the number of such
officers removed annually, since the beginning of the
year 1848 (in consequence of having been four years in
one station), from England, Scotland, and Ireland, dis-
tinguishing to which of these kingdoms they have been re-
spectively removed. And an account of expenses incurred
and paid to or on account of such officers, in cansequenoe
of such removals ; distinguishing, as far as can be ascer-
tained, travelline• expenses from any other items.
IRISH POST-OFFICE.
Mr. H. HERBERT gave notice that this day fort.
night he should call the attention of the huuse to the
evidence taken before the committee which sat last year
on the subject of postal communication with Ireland.
JUVENILE REFORMATORIES.
Mr. ADDERLEV asked the Secretary of State for
the Home Department, when he will introduce his bill
for the promotion of juvenile reformatories.
Lord PALMERSTON said that he had a bill in pre-
paration on the subject, and would not lose sight of it.
SUBSTITUTION OF DECLARATIONS FOR
OATHS.
Mr. A. PELLATT, in moving for leave to intro.
duce a bill to substitute declarations for oaths, said he
was anxious to remove an impediment in the way of civil
and religious liberty, which impediment now existed in
the law respecting oaths. He desired to bring in a
bill for the purpose of enabling all who had comoienti our