The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-11 00:00:00

always been considered apart from party or political
views. He thought the noble earl could hardly have
meant to except the present discussion, for when he
looked to the state of the house lie would not see that
there was any combination between the noble earl
(Grey) and his (the opposition) side of the house. Much
as he respected the great ability of the noble earl on the
cross benches, they had had differences of opinion on
many subjects, and their present views were so much at
variance that he did not think his agreeing with the
noble earl upon the present question would be any evi-
dence of party feeling or agreement, excepting that the
noble earl had intimated that the course which was
about to have been adopted by the Government with
which he (Earl Derby) was connected was a more pru-
dent one than that which had been taken by the present,
Government. The noble earl at the head of the Govern-
ment had stated that it was by no means their intention to
discontinue the present system of transportation, and
that had relieved his mind, because certainly the lan-
guage of the noble duke at the head of the colonial de;
piiaeartri?; en had had aso
The
henoble
dukem differentsomewhat
tnot tendency. (
only
nlywas H ear,
transpor-
tation to Van Diemen's Land to be put a stop to, but
that it was impossible not to see that the portion of our
colonies that would consent to receive convicts was few
in number and limited in extent, and that there was only
one colony in Western Australia which was willing to
take convicts, and that would only be available for a
short time. The impression produced on his mind was
that the Government had come to the conclusion that
transportation must soon cease to become a portion of
our criminal system. (Hear, hear.) He was therefore
glad to hear that the Government were not about to dis-
continue transportation : and he had also heard with
satisfaction that whilst they would limit it within nar-
rower bounds, the noble earl was of opinion that changes
in the law were called for by which transportation should
be confined, formally as well as really, to a more limited
number of offences ; and that when persons were sen-
tenced to transportation it should be carried out. It
was desirable that criminals should be well aware of the
penalty awaiting their offences, and that the sentence
to be pronounced should not be a mere brutent fulmen.
He believed that there were many offences to which the
punishment of transportation was now applied for which
it would not be convenient to continue it. The noble
earl who had just sat down went farther in disparaging
the advantages derived from the system of transportation
in comparison with other modes of secondary punish-
ment, for he seemed to think that transportation was
for those who were utterly irreclamable, and that the
reformatory influence was only to be applied through a
different system. He, however, was of opinion that
there was more chance of amendment from transporta-
tion than from a reformatory system in this country,
followed up, as it must be, by a recurrence to former
habits and associates. And so far from wishing to re-
strict transportation solely to those with regard to whom
but little hope was to be entertained, still less with re-
gard to the most aggravated cases, he thought there was
a class of persons who, after a reformatory system in
this country, might obtain signal benefit from transpor-
tation to the colonies, and who, might be an advantage
to the community to whom they were sent. (Hear,
hear.) Transportation, therefore, he thought, might be
available as a valuable sequence to a reformatory pro-
cess. He thought, however, that the time had arrived
when we must look to the abolition of transportation to
Van Diemen's Land. The feeling which existed in
that colony against receiving convicts might be partly
produced by the encouragement given in this country
to the notion that a colony which received convicts
was 1,16, degraded colony. He thought that to be a
mistake—(hear)—but the idea was so strongly impressed'
on the people of Vau Diemen's Land, that he did not
say we had not the right or the power to send convicts
there, but he thought it would not be good policy to con-
tinue to do so. (Hear.) They had given Van Diemen's
Land an independent government of its own, and from
that time they must take the legislative body to be the
representatives of the people, and the organ for expound-
ing the feelings and wishes of the colonists. (Hear.)
And where there was a strong feeling pervading the
whole of a colony, especially on such a subject as the ad-
mission of convicts, it was unwise to run the risk of re,
peating in Van Diemen's Land scenes such as they had
witnessed in other colonies. (Hear.) The field for trans-
portation would consequently be limited to an extent
which would be found inconvenient, and it would mate-
rially diminish a large portion of the reformatory princi-
ple. Thinking it necessary to make an immediate pre-
paration for meeting that emergency, he did not the less
agree with the motion in regretting the precipitate man-
ner in which the Government had given effect to an in-
tention, which he thought might safely have been carried
out more gradually, and which he and his late colleagues
fully entertained, but the execution of which they were
willing to postpone until they made the necessary ar-
rangements. He did not think that the Government had
taken any step which did not belong to Ministers of the
Crown ; but they had done that which rendered an im-
mediate alteration of the system inevitable, without
giving Parliament an opportunity of discussing the sub-
ject, or having before them the full details of the plan
by which they were going to supersede the system at
present in operation. The late Government would not
have advised her Majesty to discontinue the present sys-
tem without coming to a satisfactory solution of the plan
to be substituted. They were anxious to intimate to the
inhabitants of Van Diemen's Land their wish to comply
with their very natural desire, but they were desirous, at
the same time, of proceeding cautiouslybefore they made
any change. Having alluded to the changes which had
been made, he must express his regret that the Govern-
ment had now made another sudden change, leading the
public mind, perhaps, to believe that there would be a
greater change than was contemplated. He would not
dwell on the individual injustice that would be done to
convicts, for he was sure that the Government would do all
they could to limit and prevent it. But when the present
system was introduced he pointed out to the noble earl
that as to deportation lie was only postponing the evil day,
and that the pressure would come as soon as the convicts
were entitled to be sent out of the country. From an
expression which had dropped from the noble earl at the
head of the Government, lie did not think there was
much difference between his views and those of the late
Government as to limiting the amount of transportation
and the offences for which it should be inflicted. He
thought it desirable that there should be some locality,
not far from this country, in which there should be a
prison for persons of whom there was no hope of amend-
ment, and who should not, therefore, contaminate a
colony. (Hear, hear.) He did not mean that they
should always be kept within the walls of a prison, but
within a narrow space, subject to surveillance, even for
life. That might be a substitute for transportation, and
he thought he inferred from what had fallen from the
noble earl that he did not differ widely from thoso views.
(Hear, hear, from the Earl of Aberdeen.) In conclu-
sion, he must say that he saw with regret that the Go-
vernment had taken a course likely to lead to embarrass-
ment, having the appearance of yielding to popular feel-
ing in Van Diemen's Land against transportation there,
and that they had adopted the discontinuance of the
present system before they had matured the plan they
had intended to propose as to secondary punishment.
He complained, moreover, of their taking a final and
ultimate step without first consulting Parliament on the
subject. Entertaining those views he should support
the resolution of the noble earl on the cross benches.
(Hear.)

The Duke of NEWCASTLE said that the noble earl
(the Earl of Derby) had expressed his intention of voting
with the noble earl (Earl Grey) who had brought forward
this motion, principally because of the approbation which
he had expressed in reference to the course which the
late Government intended to pursue. At the same time,
the noble earl (the Earl of Derby) abstained from
making any statement as to what those intentions were.
He (the Duke of Newcastle) could assure the noble earl
that however the noble lord who made the motion might
approve of that course, he was only able to judge of it
from what was contained in the speech from the throne,
and in a dispatch of the right hon. gentleman (Sir J.
Pakington) who preceded him in office. The noble earl
(Earl Grey) had, in his speech, charged the Government
with having violated the spirit if not the letter of vari-
ous act of Parliament. Now he (the Duke of Newcastle)
utterly denied that the Government had done this. It
had acted upon the power which the Crown had invari-
ably exercised, upon the advice of ministers, to decide
to which colonies transportation should proceed, and
where and in what degree it should be stopped. There
was no act of Parliament stating to what colonies trans-
portation should take place. The matter had always
been regulated by orders in council, and the noble earl
must know that on more than one occasion an order in
council had been made, repealed, restored, and repealed
again merely upon the advice of Ministers. Again,
what had been the practice of late years with regard to
transportation ? Latterly, until within a short time,
prisoners transported for seven years had never been
transported at all, but merely sent to the hulks. More
than that, Ministers had not only taken upon them-
selves never to carry the sentence of transportation into
effect, but, even since the late alterations, prisoners sen-
tenced to seven years' transportation were detained for
two years and a half in solitary confinement and upon
public works before being sent out of the country.
What was the effect of these alterations by the Govern-
ment of which the noble earl was a member ? Under
it a man sentenced to transportation for seven years was
virtually transported for life. The noble earl (Earl
Grey) looked amazed at this, but it was the case, for
under these regulations a man was transported and left
without the means of returning. The early part of the
speech of the noble earl (Earl Grey) was devoted to the
praise of transportation in the abstract, but at the close
of his observations he adverted to a speech made by him
upon a former occasion, and expressed an opinion,
which it was only due to the colonists of Van Diemen's
Land that
house.thath
he (the
The
noble
Dukeofea!l Newcastle)
went so fartle) shouldas to s
advertpeakto
in
of this anti convict movement as a sham. He (the
Duke of Newcastle) held in his hand a list of petitions
from Van Diemen's Land, which either had been, or
were about to be presented to the other house, praying
that the system of transportation might be altered. The
petitions were not got up by professed agitators, but
were the sincere views and opinions of the people. There
were 42 of them, and among them 19 were from congre-
gations of the Established Church, 8 from Presbyterian
congregations, 7 from the Baptists, 1 from the free
church, 1 from the Dissenters, 1 from the Roman
Catholics, and 1 from the Jews. This did not look as
though the matter were a sham. Even upon pecuniary
ground; the petitioners were dissatisfied with the pre-
sent state of things. But were not the colonists the
a t
eldV
thhe
ant tthhee
nnobleobl e lord
(Earl Grey) was the last man who should oppose the
ab
te stth judges
egaeds
oo of
tthhee r
Government imnieensttssti
wishes of the colonies, the noble earl had made a gesture
of dissent ; but he (the Duke of Newcastle) could
quote from the interesting book which the noble earl
hadlately published two pages in which he laid down
the constitutional maxim, that the colonies were the
best judges of their own internal affairs. Whilst upon
the subjeet he, might refer to a dispatch of the noble