The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-06 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, ,MAY_ _63 1;853.

make their returns to local parties, but ought to be allowed.
His consti-
tuents, make them to some central authority.
the small farmers of the county of-Co.rk._, should not
say of him—" You have made use of your pneevilmeegeteoxf ratra-
liament to protect your own purse from me
you have saddled us for 40 years with th
se his best exer-
annuities." He could meet thenaall now consolidated
lia'acalteea(!
conscience—(cheers)—and he should
tions to obtain the modifications proposedo the income tax.
u by the Irish
members relative to the imposition
The people of Ireland were shrewd afingtreinateeflliegpeLte,b
and
would be able to distinguish between
figures of arithmetic. Trying the question by the. test
. of
fgures, there could be no doubt that thaantntnihetiesuebwsteeituatiogneeodf
the income tax for the conso
bargain for Ireland.. (Hear.) What he disliked in the
income tax was its inquisitorial character ; but he hoped
the Government would be able to deprive it of that. If
not, the peol againsteland would join the people of England
in agitatingit. It was in this view that the hon.
member for Birminghe.,m, who had always opposed the tax,
approved of its extension to Ireland, for he said the Irish
were such a troublesome set that they would soon coamndpeal
Parliament to repeal the tax altegethn
laugh.) For his part, he was not dispo to(li give a vote
to
which would restore the b ndgeAdministration
office. (Hear.)
Mr. DUFF thought that the hon. member for Clonmel
intended to fight a sham battle on this oca
mcasianonne.r
e st y (Hear.)
to
When the question was raised before
ember voted again
it.
in
command a majority, the hon. member
(Hear.) The hon. member for the county of Cork would
not give a vote which he thought might have the effect of
restoring the late Ministry to power, but he had no scruple
irD supporting those who had at one time acquired the epi-
thet of "base, bloody, and brutal —.(hear,
bills
(hear, hear)—and who
neverhad shrunk from the imposition of coercionon
Ireland when such answered their purpose. (Hear, hear.)
Another reason given for not voting against the income tax
the other night was, that he would not go into the same
lobby with those who sympathised with the outrages at
Stockport, and who had defended the affair of Six-mile-
bridge ' • but the hon. gentleman had no objection at all to
go into the same lobby with the author of the Ecclesiastical
Titles Bill and those who supported that measure. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. member for Cork had told them repeat-
edly that there were members on that (the Opposition) side
of the house who had no interest in Ireland. Now, cer-
tainly there were a large number of members on that side
of the house who had no interest in Downing-street. (Hear,
and a laugh.) Their career had been characterised, never-
theless, by consistency of conduct and by integrity in that
house. (Hear, hear.) He would now pass, however, to
the general question whether an income tax should or
should not be imposed in Ireland. He was entitled to
assume, that up to this time Ireland was considered by the
Government as having been properly exempted from in-
come tax, else why had it not been imposed? Then what
were the reasons for imposing it now ? So far as he could
gather, the reasons amounted to this—first, that England
never had so little need of taxation from Ireland, and that
Ireland could never so ill spare it. (A laugh.) That was
the first leg of the argument. The other was, that in 1842,
when Sir R. Peel proposed the income tax, Ireland was
much more prosperous than she was now, and that Eng-
land was less prosperous then than she was now. (A laugh.)
Now, England was richer than she had ever been before,
and Ireland presented a spectacle such as, he believed, the
world never presented before, her population leaving her in
multitudes because they could not find the mean° of acquir-
ing a livelihood. (Hear, hear.) In considering this pro-
posal for an income tax on Ireland he thought it was right
to look to some of the items of their expenditure that were
not sent to Ireland ' • and the first ho would mention was
the half-million raised for the purposes of the militia, not
one farthing of which would be expended in Ireland. He
thought it was a somewhat cool proceeding for Ministers
to ask the Irish people to pay an income tax which
would go to the maintenance of militia that they would
not extend to Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Another item of
expenditure to which he would refer was the packet
service. Government after Government had declared that
Ireland should not have an American packet station, but
nevertheless they asked that part of the money for the
packet service should be paid by Ireland. (Hear, hear.) It
was said that in opposing this income tax they forgot the
increased comforts conferred upon the people. There was
a reduction in the duty on nuts and anchovies, on brocade
and artificial flowers, and things of that sort, and then they
were told of the comforts of the poor being increased. (A
laugh.) His main, objection to the proposal was, that it
would be-most oppressive to the industrious poor of Ire-
land. (Hear, hear.) The budget was conceived in a spirit
directly in favour of England. (No, no.) The declaration
of Mr. Pitt, 80 years ago, was as true now as then, when
lie said, "The uniform policy of England has been to de-
prive Ireland of the use of her own resources, and to make
her subservient to the interests and the opulence of the
English people." Wear, hear.) That was exactly what
they
.were 'driving at at this moment. Many of the Irish
members had voted most unwillingly against the Govern-
ment on this occasion. For himself, he could say that his
vote was not a party vote. Ho was not desirous to see the
late Government again in power, but, at the same time, he
must. say, that to him, and a very numerous party in Ire-
land, the going out of any Government was a very inferior
question ; and the> mere circumstance of any man's holding
office or not would not for a moment prevent him voting
against a measure like the present. (Hear, hear.) He bad
no doubt that some few Irish members had voted iu favour
of that measure from conscientious grounds. (Hear, and
Oh, oh !) But, proceeded the hon. member, short as my
experience in this house has been, I must say I do not be-
lieve that in the worst clays of the Walpoles or the Pelhams
more scandalous corruption existed than I have seen prac-
tised under my own eye in corrupting Irish members.
(Confusion, and loud cries of " Name, name !") lam in
the hands of the house. (Continued cries of "Na De,
name !" and " No, no !") I will proceed to another part
of the question. (No, uo ! Name, name ! and uproar.) If
the chairman tells me, on behalf of the house, that it is
their wish I should name, I shall do so. (Laughter, cries
of "No, no !" and " Name, name 1")
Mr. V. SCULLY rose, amid peat uproar, and was
understood to complain of the charge that had been made ;
but amid the noise and confusion he could not be heard in
the gallery.
Mr. J. BALL (Carlow) rose, and with considerable vehe-
mence said -I move that the words of the hon. member
for New Ross be taken down. (Great laughter, and re-
mewed confusion.)
Mr. DUFF Y. again rose, but the calls of " Name, name,"
were so loud and incessant, that he was unable to proceed.
The CHAIRMAN—I believe the motion is, that the
words of the lion. member for New Ross be takon down.
What are the words ? (Great laughter.)
Mr. J. BALL—I believe I was strictly in order in ma-
king the motion that the words—(interruption)—that the
words, which are fresh in the recollection of every member
near me, should be taken down. ("No, no," and uproar.)
I apprehend that it is the duty,of the clerk of the house to
take down the words. (" No, no," and confusion.)
Mr. G. H. _MOORE rose, but than the noise, uproar,
and calls of "Chair," not a word he uttered reached the
gallery.
The CHAIRMAN—I apprehend that I can take no
course in committee with reference to any language that
may have been used by the hon. member. It is for the
house to say what shall be done. It will therefore be my
duty, if the words are taken down, to report them to the
house. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. G. MooRE and Mr. J. BALL here rose together, and
both seemed to speak, but from the cries a " dair,"
" Duffy," and the extraordinary noises which prevailed,
they were allowed to gesticulate in dumb show. At
length
Mr. MOORE was heard to state, that during the debate
on the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill a similar motion to the pre-
sent was yroposed, and the Speaker then decided that no
such motion could be made. (Cheers and counter-cheers.)
Mr. R SCULLY (amid cries of " Oh, oh," and much
confusion) said—l must correct that statement. On the
occasion referred to the Speaker declared that the motion
would have been in order if it had been made at the time
the words were used. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. BALL—If the hon. member for New Ross (Mr.
Duffy) declines to repeat the words I will not press my
motion for taking them down ; but the words used were
these :—" The grossest corruption ever practised since the
clays of the Walpoles and the Pelhams has been practised
under my own eyes upon Irish members of this house."
(Hear, hear.)
The hon. member having written down the above words
on a slip of paper, handed them to the chairman of the
committee (Mr. Bouverie), lay whom they were read from
the chair.

Sir D. NORREYS—Nothing is more distressing than
such occurrences as the present, and I appeal to the hon.
member for New Ross to withdraw the expressions. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. gentleman is a young member, and pro-
bably has not the honour of the house and of Irish mem-
bers so much at heart as I have. (Laughter, and cries of
hear.) I pray him at once to withdraw the words ; and I
put myself forward to make this appeal, as I am as clear as
any one from the imputation those words convey.
The CHAIRMAN, having again read the words written
down by the hon. member for Carlow (Mr. J. Ball), in-
quired, before putting the question that they be taken
down by the clerk, whether the hon. member for New
Ross impeached their accuracy?
Mr. DUFFY—The words read ara so near to those I
used that Ido not take any exception to them. (Cheers,
laughter, and considerable confusion.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—I beg to recal the recollection of
the house to the circumstances in which the hon. gentle-

man used the words complained of, and the manner in
which he followed them up. (Hear.) The words as written
down appear to me, and I believe to the hon. member him-

self, as nearly as possible the same as he used. He was
immediately, on this side of the house, met with loud cries

of " Name, name." (Hear, hear.) Now, it appears to me
that if the hon. gentleman meant to make a vague asser-
tion which he had not the least means of proving—(hear,

hear)—he might be justified in passing on to other matter;

but if, on the contrary, he meant to make an assertion

affecting the integrity and honour of Irish members, he

ought to name the Members charged with this gross cor-
ruption, which, he says, is unparalleled since the days of
the Walpoles and the Pelhams. (Cheers.) Instead of that,
however, he took the first and the immediate opportunity
of saying, "Now I will pass to another part of the sub-
ject.' ("Hear," cries of "No," and cheers.) If I am
wrong in this statement the hon. gentleman will con-
tradict me ; but I understood him to say, immediately
after there was a cry of " Name " that if the chairman, by
the desire of the committee, called, on him to name, ho
w
-alit (to so But, of course, it was not in the power of
the chairmanyaa..ntohdo that, and then the hon. gentleman im-
mediatel
subject. S boei'ras going to pass to another part of the
committee inchner, the case, it appears to me that the
may consider thoseam,,oarnd the Irish members in particular,
which the hon, gentlent as
.general words used in debate,
(cheers)—brought forward f los totally unable to prove—
stigma on Irish members whicrl ththe purpose
Let odfesaerffizve—ilrea-
flowed cheers)—and that ho istutt e"
unable to prove any
single word of what he had utterede'
(Loud cheers.) If,
however, the hon. gentleman, on tO other hand, is ready,
other
to charge Irish
with the Speaker in the chair, to
with which he
members individually with that co
has charged them generally, then I sili)out
vote in favour of the words being taken odthitroen
u.
would gsee n t I
be e-
clerk. But, as matters now stand, unless the "Tu.
by
'lithe
man goes on to take that step, I consider
better fur the Committee to treat those words with the con-
tempt they deserve. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. LUCAS—I apprehend that, when words of this
kind are used, if they are ever used—(laughter)—it is quite
possible that, if the hon. gentleman chooses to go into the
proof of them, he might prove to the general satisfaction
of every gentleman a great deal that might be unpleasant
to state or repeat. (Cries of " Oh, oh !") But I must
a th
whatter and
his
say I understood the words of my hon. friend differently
from what they have been described. ("No "
Nt
o say, o I' '
lu
crirs,of -",npar.") I understood him
tilteribr nresecr in may have been lies in his own breast)—l
(" N !
atutlerstoodliimlo say that the grossest corruption
no had "
bden practisecl.towards the Irish members.
it id laughter). I appeal whether that is not the precise

hseseme
form of the sentence used by the hon. member, and I con-
ceive that when the house is asked to adopt a strict pro-
ceeding of this kind, they must take the exact words used,
and not put any gloss upon them. (Hear, hear.) The
words, as I understood them, constituted an accusation
against the Government—(laughter)—and might or might
not imply an imputation on Irish members. (" Oh, oh !")
The words were, that the grossest corruption had been
practised towards Irish members. (Vehement cries of
" Name !" during which the hon. gentleman received from
another hon. member a copy of the words placed in the
hands of the chairman.) The hon. member then read the
form of words which had been handed to the chairman by
the hon. member for Carlow—" That the grossest corrup-
tion ever practised since the days of the Walpoles and the
Pelhams has been practised under my own eyes upon Irish
members of this house and proceeded :—By whom, then,
has this corruption been practised ? Not by the Irish mem-
bers on the Government ; no one pretends that Irish mem-
bers have corrupted the Government—(laughter)—or that
any bribery had proceeded from any of the hon. gentlemen
opposite to the occupiers of the Treasury bench ; but a
comparison has been drawn between the right hon. gentle-
men opposite and the Walpoles and the Pelhams of an
earlier generation, and it was asserted that the grossest
corruption has been practised by them. ("Name, name!"
cries of " Order," and cheers.) If, therefore, those right
hon. gentlemen, out of a regard for their own dignity and
character, think it necessary to have those words taken
down, and require some ulterior proceeding to be taken,
that is all very well; but at all events let it be understood
that the accusation was made against them. (Hear, and
cries of "Oh !") It is only in this sense that any complaint
of the kind can bo entertained. (Hear.) If the words are
taken down, let them be taken down accurately, and I am
sure the house will not strain the imputation a hair's
breadth beyond what was conveyed.
Dr. PHILLIMORE—I think the words were written
down most accurately by the hon. member for Carlow—
(hear)—and it corncerns the honour of this house to know
what member of the Government has practised gross cor-
ruption under the eyes of the hon. member for New Ross
upon any Irish member, with a view to influence his vote.
(Cheers.)
Mr. OTWAY—The hon member for Meath (Mr. Lucas)
has given a wrong explanation of the words now complain-
ed of. The house should recollect what preceded the words
in question. The hon member for New Ross said that
some few Irish members had acted conscientiously, and
then several of my hon. friends near me cried out with in.
dignation—" Some few, indeed !" The hon. member for
New Ross then went on to make the accusation of gross
corruption which, he said, had been practised upon Irish
members under his own eyes. (Hear.)
Mr. E. BALL (Cambridgeshire), amid considerable up-
roar, expressed his conviction that the hon. member for
Meath (Mr. Lucas) had given the correct interpretation of
the words used. It was a parallel between the Walpoles
and Pelhams of a former period and the present Govern-
ment, and unless the charge were understood as brought
against the Government there would be no application in
the words.
The CHAIRMAN understood that he was to put the
question that the words suggested by the hon. member for
Carlow (Mr. J. Ball) as having been used by the hon. mem-
ber for New Ross—(cries of "They are admitted")—should
be taken down by the clerk, and, if that motion were
agreed to, the proper course, in the next place, would bo
to report them to the house. Before putting- the enestien,
he must express his decided opinion that the language was
disorderly—(hear)—the general rule being that no expres-
sions imputing improper motives should be used in debate.
(Hear, hear.) He then put the question that the words be
taken down by the clerk.
Mr. DISRAELI—I understand the chairman to say that
he considers the words disorderly because they impute
corrupt motives. It appears to me that there is some doubt
about the words. (" No, no," and cries of "They are ad-
mitted.") I do not find any imputation of corrupt motives
in them. (Cries of " Oh, oh," and " Order.") I regret
that there should be such a tone of levity in the house upon
this subject. I say that I find no imputation of corrupt
motives, but a distinct imputation of corrupt conduct.
(" Oh, oh," and laughter.) Nothing is more clear than
this—that an allegation of corrupt conduct, especially if
such conduct is- alleged against a Ministry, is not disorderly-
in the House of Commons. Such an allegation is not dis-
orderly, for it is the first and paramount duty of a member
of this house, if such corruption exists, to denounce it.
(Hear.) Therefore we must not declare that a member has
been guilty of disorderly conduct because he has accused a
Minister of corrupt conduct. (Hear, hear.) By so doing
we should be depriving ourselves of one of the highest pri-
vileges of our position. (Hear.) I think it is evident, from
this consideration, how important it is that we should have
a clear admission of what were the precise words used.
If those words impute corrupt motives to an individual,
whether a Minister or not, I believe them to be disorderly;
but if a distinct accusation has been made against the
Ministry by a member in his place that they have acted
corruptly, that member is not guilty of disorderly conduct,
but has been acting upon his right—(cheers)—and if he
can substantiate his charge, he is exercising the highest
duty he can exercise as a member of this house. (Hear,
hear.) I beg therefore that the committee will be most
careful as to their proceedings in this matter.
Lord PALMERSTON—I am ready to admit, as has
been stated by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli),
that it is competent for any member of this house to im-
peach the conduct of her Majesty's Government, if it
should appear to him that he has ground to maintain his
accusations—(hear, hear)—and, as far as the charge of tho
lion. member for New Ross (Mr. Duffy) against her Ma-
jesty s Government goes, I challenge him to the proof.
(Loud cheering from the Ministerial side.) I want no
taking down of the words, and reporting them to the
Speaker. As far, howevsr, as the charge goes against the
Irish members of this house the matter stands upon a
different footing. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member has
made a charge, which, whatever may be the particular
words which he used, implies necessarily an imputation
upon the honour and conduct of his Irish colleagues.
(Hear, and cheers.) Now, we all know that men are fre-
quently led away in the course of argument to make asser-
tions which, in their cooler moments, they would feel that
they had no good ground for making. The hon. member
for New Ross is a young member in this house—(hear,
hear)— and he will excuse me if, having been here longer
than himself—(a laugh)—l venture to suggest to him a line
of conduct which I think will redound to his credit. I
will put it to the hon. member whether he would not cut
short the difficulty in which he is likely to involve us by
saying that which I am persuaded must be passing in his
inmost mind—namely, that be regrets that, in the warmth
of debate, he cast reflections upon hon. members which lie
has no good grounds for maintaining, and which he would
not deliberately put forth. (Hear, and cheers.) Nothing
would be more creditable to the hon. member than the ad-

mission that he had not intended to use words imputing
dishonourable conduct to honourable men—(hear)—and I
would humbly venture to suggest to him, that it would
consist better with what is due to himself, as well as with
what is due to the representatives of this country, if he
were fairly, handsomely, and candidly to say, that he
did not mean deliberately and seriously to impute any dis•
honourable conduct to any members. (Hear, hear, and
cheers.)
Mr. LUCAS rose amid loud shouts for " Duffy," and
repeated cries of " Spoke, spoke," which prevented him
from proceeding for some moments. When the tumult had
subsided, the hon. gentleman said—l believe I am per-
fectly in order—and I rise merely to protest against its be-
ing taken for granted, as the noble lord seems to do, that
those words which are taken down, and which have a most
distinct meaning, have the meaning which be attributes to
them. (Cries of " Oh 1" and laughter.) I do maintain
that there is no meaning of that kind in thoge words.
(Renewed cries of " Oh !") The words that have been
taken down contain an imputation against the Ministers,
but do not necessarily imply any imputation upon Irish
members. (Laughter, cries of "Oh !" and renewed calls
for " Duffy.") I say they do not necessarily imply any
imputation whatever upon the honour and character of
the Irish members. (" Oh !" and laughter.) If I ven-
tured to offer the hon. member for New Ross any advice,
it would be to stand upon his right and on the words which
he has used—to take the words as they stand, and leave
the house if it pleases to do so, but as I believe it never
will, to determine that these words have a sense which I
am persuaded no rational man could deduce from them—
namrly, that they contain an imputation upon any person
except her Majesty's Ministers. (Shouts of "Oh !" and
laughter.)
Sir G. GREY—If those words, which have been made
the subject of complaint, do not bear the meaning which
has been affixed to them, it would certainly be most satis-
factory to the house to hear that such is the case from the
hon. member by whom they were used. (Hear, and
cheers.) It seems to me that we have engaged in a very
fruitless discussion as to the accuracy of the words. The
chairman, as I think, with great propriety, before he put
the question that the words should be taken down, ap-
pealed to the hon. member for New Ross to know whether
they had been handed to him, and I understood the hon.
gentleman (Mr. Duffy) to admit their substantial accuracy.
(Cheers.) Then, after the hon. gentleman has made this
admission, and when the committee is proceeding to dis-
cuss whether, the accuracy of the words having been ad-
mitted, they should be taken down, the hon. member for
Meath (Mr. Lucas) attempts to deny the accuracy of the
word 4 which have been read. (Laughter and cheers.)
Mr: LUCAS—I beg the right hon. gentleman's pardon.
I did not deny—(loud and prolonged shouts of " Oh !
oh !")—I did not deny the accuracy of the words. (Re-
newed cries of "Oh ! and much confusion.) I really
think I have some right to appeal to the courtesy of gen-
tlemert opposite. I am repeating what I have said before.
I read the words from this paper, and my whole argument
was founded upon those words being accurate. They are—
" The grossest corruption since the time of the Walpoles
and the Pelhams has been practised under my own eyes
upon tile Irish members in this house." I assumed the
accuracy of those words, and my argument was based upon
their ;accuracy.
Sir GREY—I certainly understood the hon. member
for Metath to deny the accuracy of the words (hear, hear),
and to deny that the hon. member for New Ross had stated
that, tt nder his own eyes, the grossest corruption had been
practised. It is true that afterwards, admitting the sub-
stantial accuracy of the words, the hon. member for Meath
denied. that a direct construction had been put upon them,
but the+ hon. member for New Ross, who was sitting by
him, did not attempt to confirm that view. I had hoped
that, int answer to the appeal made to him by the noble
lord (Lord Palmerston), the hon. member for New Ross
would have admitted that a wrong construction had been
placed 'upon the words, and would have relieved the com-
mittee from the painful position in which we are now
placed, by at once denying that ho intended to cast, either
upon Ow Government or upon Irish members, without be-
ing abl e to prove it, an imputation equally disgraceful
either t o the Government or to Irish members. (Hear,
hear.) I hope that if the hon, member for New Ross does
not ret tact these words, he will explain the sense in which
he meal them, or will proceed to give substantial proofs of
the chap ges he has brought both against the Irish members
and the Government. (Hear.)
Mr. 11. HERBERT—As an Irish member, who has lis-
tened to this most painful discussion, I venture to remind
the corn mittee of the advice which has been given by the
noble Id rd who leads this house. That advice was to treat
the imp station made by an hon. member who did not dare
to comq. forward either to prove his charge or to name the
parties against whom that charge was made, with the con-
tempt'. rhich it deserved. (" Hear," and cheers.) As an
Irish nit :tuber, and as one of those who must, therefore, of
neeessiti q. be included in the charge made by the hon. mem-
ber for few Ross, I for one am perfectly ready to take the
!Lliee 0. f the noble lord—(hear)—more especially as since
thatina.leex: client advice was given the Home Secretary has
I hesits 4.,,e to adclot
think t' t haPPeal to
the member for New Ross, which I
been
re
vmoduesaetwibllynanudyebrsotadymtliemseervwihngenthlesany woameuolfd—hbauvet
Mr. IJFFY
Mr. Boer verse, that under the(L ocuidrccuhmeandinlawughhiether.l)
D then he wroorstel'and said—l should have hoped,
e stancesn
stand no w, assailed
as I have been her e (derisive cheers,
and cries of Oh 1" from th
called up on to give an answer ° Ministerial benches)—and
uder circumstances which I
presume. are considered scriu:
I shoal' have been protected I should have hoped that
from
such offensive lung cage

as has just been addressed to me. ( Oh ! cheers, and
laughter.) I do not think it creditable that, in an assem-
bly of English gentlemen—(oh, oh !)—such language
should be applied to me under such circumstances. (Oh,
and derisive cheers.) There are two points in relation to
what I befotss said upon which I wish to give an explana-
tion. One of them relates to a phrase which has been
dwelt upon and somewhat misunderstood. I observed,
that short as my experience of this house was—short as
my experience of public life was—l have seen certain
things done; and the phrase " under my own eyes" meant,
during the period I have been a member of this house.
(Laughter from the Ministerial side.) I am not going to
alter a syllable of what I said, although gentlemen at the
back of the, treasury bench may indulge in their laughter.
I wish the committee tounderstandthat the phrase "under
my own eyes," taken in connection with what immediately
preceded it, meant during the period I have been a mem-
ber of this house. (Hear, and laughter.) Yes ; it meant
nothing else. The other point is this. The interpretation
put upon my words by my hon. friend the member for
Meath has led to some discussion. Now, I was instancing
the conduct of Ministers. Walpole was a Minister, and
corrupted Parliament, as history tells us. Pelham
was a Minister, and corrupted Parliament, as history
tells us. I was instancing the corruption effected by
Ministers, and I came down to our own times, and the
shape I gave my statement was that it was my convic-
tion that, during the time I have been in Parliament,
the present Government did operate upon certain Irish
members. (Oh! laughter, cheers, and cries of " Name !")
What I wished to convey to the house was, that the same
kind of influence which was employed byWalpole and Pel-
ham seemed to me to have been employed to influence the
votes of a certain small number of Irish members. (Cries
of " Oh !" " Name," and laughter.) The noble lord, who
is called I believe the leader of this house, has thought pro-
per to say that I wanted to pass away from the subject
without offering any explanation. Now that is not the fact
I stated to the committee that if the chairman, as their
organ, called on me to name I would name. I paused for
a considerable time. I heard the clamours of the commit-
tee on both sides—" Name," and " Don't name "—and I
came to the conclusion—and so did my hon. friends near
me—that it was the wish of the.committee that I should
not name. (Loud cries of " Name 1" from the Ministerial
side, and " No, no !" from the Opposition.) I am not, as
several hon. gentlemen have said, an old member of this
house—l am not very familiar with its forms, and I may
perhaps have got into a position of some difficulty; but one
position I cannot and will not get into, and that is, the pci-
tlition of unsaying anything I havesaid. (Hear.) When the
chairman had come to the conclusion that I was not in or-
der, there was a certain course which I considered proper
under the circumstances, but I afterwards heard a very in-
fluential member on this side - the leader of a large party
in this house=declare his opinion that that decision was
come to somewhat rashly, and that circumstance naturallL
altered my views to some extent. If it be the will of the
committee that I should give any further explanation of
the facts that influenced me in forming and stating the
opinion I before expressed, I am ready to do so. (Hear.)
If, on the contrary, the committee require me to withdraw
this language, to explain it away, and to say that my state-
ment was not true, I have only one course to take, what-
ever the consequences may be. (Loral clips of "Name !"
" Chair, ohair r) I am again called upon to name ; of
course, if a large number of gentlemen in this house wish
me to name—(" No, no !" " Chair 1" " Name !")
Mr. BRIGHT—I think the committee will consider
there is a great difference between the explanation just
given by the hon. member and the impression he made
upon us by his original statement. The statement, I think,
now stands thus :—The hon. gentleman says he is of opi-
nion that the Government have taken measures, somewhat
analogous to those taken by former Governments, for the
purpose of influencing votes in this house. I should be
sorry to have to defend any Government against charges of
this nature—(laughter)— but the hon. gentleman from the
other side of the Channel ; and we all know that gentle-
men from that quarter—though it is in the west—are occa-
sionally apt to take what may be called an Oriental lati-
tude in language—that their mode of expressing themselves
comes, not unfrequontly, under the head of the figurative.
(Laughter.) I am inclined to think the expressions com-
plained of may be fairly classed within that category. I
myself may have at times used expressions which the house
has not altogether approved of. (Laughter.) The chairman
has determined that the expressions so used by the hon.
gentleman were disorderly. I am satisfied the hon. gentle-
man would not wish to do anything that the committee con-
sider disorderly—that he would not willingly transgress the
rules of the house, or act counter to its customs. The hon.
gentleman says he is of opinion that certain practices have
been adopted by Ministers towards gentlemen sitting below
the gangway. Now, really, were I myself an Irish member
of this house' I should hardly think it worth while to have
so general an imputation as this taken down. (Laughter.)
The hon. gentleman, perhaps, sees in the course taken by
some other hon. gentleman something which he does not
quite comprehend, but then he has made a partial expla-
nation of what ho meant to convey, and though I should,
certainly, have much preferred that the words complained
of had not been uttered, and though, in the broad sense in
which they were at first understood, I cannot conceive them
to be true, yet, after the statement which the hon. gentle-
man has made, I think we may as well let the matter drop.
After all, the hon. gentleman does not say that any of the
Irish members to whom he refers have succumbed to
temptation. He only speaks of their having been operated
on, and we all know that operations are not necessarily
successful. (Laughter.) We have heard, over and over
again in this house, general imputations that Government—
ono Goverment not less than another—has employed temp-
tation and used certain means to swell their majorities, but
nobody has taken any serious notice of such general state-
ments.
Mr. J. BALL—I, for one, as an individual member,
am desirous to vindicate, not only my own personal honour,
but the honour, also, of those members with whom I am
in daily communication ; and if there is corruption going
on in this house I desire it may be manifested, that I may
disconnect myself from it, and from those who have been
gailty of it. (Hear, hear.) There is no double meaning
to the term—" corruption" is a plain word, and easy 'to be
understood. (Hear, hear.) I take the clear meaning of
the hon. member for New Ross to be, that certain Irish
members have been induced by pecuniary considerations.
(" No, no !") Are words such as the hon. member's to be
used in this house, and the house then to be told that
there is no meaning to be attached to them ? (Hear, hear.)
That certain Irish members have been induced by pecuniary
considerations to take a particular course ? (Hear, hear.)
If that allegation stands unretracted, I, for one, will not
consent to withdraw the motion. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—The hon. gentleman behind me is
quite right when he says that Governments have, in al 1
time 4, been exposed to the charge of using corrupt means,
and other charges of the like kind, and, no doubt, Govern.
ments, as well as individual members, should be indisposed
lightly to take offence at words escaping in the heat of
debate ; but it must be observed that the hon. gentleman
who rose to complain of the words in question is an Irish
member, and that the charge is, that Irish members have
been practised on by corrupt influences. (Hear, hear.)
Now, it appears to me that there are three ways in which
a member may use such words as those complained of ;
there is one case which has been supposed by my noble
friend, where, in the heat of debate, words, not well
founded, and unjust in themselves, may fall from a speaker,
and which, in a few moments afterwards, he may at once
retract and regret. This, it appears, is not the case of the
hon. member. (Hear, hear.) Another case is the per-
fectly justifiable one,. where a member states that which
he believes to be true, and which he is prepared to make
the subject of inquiry, under a specific form of charge.
(Hear, hear.) Nov, if I understand that this is the case of
the hon. member, I beg that his charges may be distinctly
made. (Cheers.) If he means thathe can substantiate any
specific charge of corrupt conduct on the part of the Go-
vernment towards any Irish member, and, as a matter of
consequence, on the part of any Irish member who has
been so corrupted, then let the charge be made, and let it
be strictly inquired into. (Hear.) There is a third way
in which such a charge may be made, and that is, where a
member having employed words affecting the honour and
integrity of another member of this house, has neither the
proof to bring forward to substantiate his charge, nor the
manliness to retract, and to acknowledge that he has been
in error. (Hear, hear.) Unless I hear that the hon. mem-
is ready, not only to name the gentlemen to whom he re-
fers, but to bring forward a specific charge, or charges,
against those members, and against the Government, which
can be made the subject of a substantive inquiry, I must
rest, with regard to his conduct, on the last conclusion I
have stated. (Cheers.)
The CHAIRMAN then put the question, that the
words complained of be taken down.
Agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN then put the question, that the
words so taken down be reported to the house.
Agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again.
The house having resumed,
Mr. BOUVERIE reported the words which had been
taken down.
The SPEAKER, having read the words from the chair,
said - Has the hon. member for New Ross anything to say
in explanation of the words I have now read, or any re-
tractation to offer ?
Mr. DUFFY—I would merely explain the object I had
in view. I desire to say I am not acquainted with the
forms of the house, and I do not know what is aimed at in
this proceeding. (Laughter.) If the Speaker will tell
me what is the course I am expected to take. (Great
laughter.)
The SPEAKER—It has been reported to the house that
an hon. member has used expressions which have been re-
ceived as offensive to a great number of members of the
house, and the committee has ordered his words to be
taken down. It then remained for me to make the hon.
member acquainted with the words which had been re-
ported to me as offensive, and to call on the hon. member
to explain or retract them. The hon. member having
made that explanation or retractation it will be for him
to withdraw, and the house will then consider what fur-
ther course they will pursue in the matter.
Mr. DUFFY—It will be in the recollection of the house
that the statement I made was this,—that though I had
been but a short time in the house I had, I thought, ob-
served corruption practised to influence the votes of Irish
members of this house, of a character with that corruption
which had for similar purposes been practised by Ministers
whose names are familiar to the house. I have been called
on for an explanation. If the house thinks proper to give
me a committee, I will lay before that committee the facts
which influenced me to the conclusion I have arrived at.
(Hear, hear.) I do not know that it is quite reasonable to
expect that I should, in this hurried manner, go into those
facts, but I believe that I have substantial grounds for
what I stated, and all I can do is to offer before any com-
mittee you will appoint those facts that influenced my
mind. (Hear, hear.) It is not reasonable I should be
called on to do this without longer notice.
The hon. gentleman having then withdrawn,
Lord J. RUSSELL immediately rose. He said, I rise
only to say that the words used by the hon. member con-
tain a general charge against the Government, and against
certain Irish members who have not been named. As a
member of the Government myself, I do not think it
becomes me to advise the house as to the course it ought
to pursue ; but I trust that some experienced member,
well acquainted with the forms and precedents of the
house, will advise and make a motion upon the subject.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI—I rise, Sir, to express the opinion of
those who, I think, wish to give a fair, and, I trust, an
unprejudiced view of this question. I do not think it
right to appoint a committee to inquire into so vague a
statement as that which has been made by the hon. mem-
ber for New Ross. (Hear, hear.) At the same time that
statement is of so substantial a nature that I do not think
we can treat it with contempt. I think that he ought to
be summoned to the house, and that you, Sir, should ask
him to name the individuals upon whom he thinks the
Government have practised these corrupt influences. I
think it would be unreasonable to expect bin), at a nu), j

ment, unexpectedly to enter into details, but he ought to
be called upon to mention the names of those hon. members
to whom his remarks apply, and we shall then be in a
position to take further steps. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WORTLEY.—I was in hopes, sir, that the hon.
member would have taken some come that would have
rendered further discussion. unnecessary. I cannot, for
the life of me, understand, after the language which he
has held, and the explanation which he has attempted to
give, how he can reconcile the course which he has taken
to his own feelings. (Cheers.) But I think it would be
unwise and imprudent if we were hastily, and at a mo-
ment's notice, considering the present state of feeling of
the house, and the feeling which is within the breast of
the hon. member himself, to call upon him without reflec-
tion to substantiate or to retract charges of this grave na-
ture. (Hear.) If we refrain from this at present it will
be open for him at a fitting time, on a right opportunity,
and when the hon. member is in a fitting state of mind,
either to retract the expressions he has used, and to apolo-
gise to the house for the course he has taken, or, in a
manly, bold, and constitutional manner, himself to move
for a committee of inquiry. (Hear, hear.) Ido not know
what course I can take under all these circumstances, ex-
cept I venture humbly to move that this debate be ad-
journed until to-morrow. (Hear, and cries of "No, no.")
Yes ; this will give us time to consult precedents, if there
be any, and it will also give an opportunity to the hon.
member to reflect upon what has passed, and to take ad-
vice with reference to it. I am quite sure there is no
desireupon the part of the house to hurry that hon. mem-
ber into a course that may be destructive to him, and I,
for one, suggest that this debate be adjourned. (Hear,
hear, and cries of "Move !") [After a pause and consulta-
tion with friends near him, the hon. member said My
motion, then, would be, " That the language of the hon.
member be taken into consideration at four o'clock to-
morrow." (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MOORE.—If the disposition of the house be to deal
justly and generously with the hon. member, whether he
substantiates or retracts, it evidently can be only fair that
time should be allowed him to weigh and consider the
whole matter. _ _

Mr. KIRK as one of the Irish members resting under
this ban, I feel that, under the peculiar circumstances and
at the peculiar hour at which this debate is going on, it
would be very unpleasant and " uncomfortable" (a laugh)
that it should be adjourned. The whole of the debate will
be printed in the newspapers to-morrow, and by Sunday it
will be circulated in the most remote corners of Ireland.
We, therefore, shall have to remain under the imputation
of corruption for an entire week; and I think the only cor-
rect course would be to act upon the recommendation of
the hon. member for Buckinghamshire.
Colonel CAITLFIELD—Sir, whether the words were
disorderly or not, or whether they were said in the heat of
the debate, at all events they augur a manifest intention to
offend. That the expressions were " offensive," I can say
for myself. That many hon. members consider them " in-
sulting," I also know. I would, therefore, beg to oppose
the adjournment of the debate, and very cordially to agree
with the expression of the hon. member for Buckingham-
shire, that you should call the hon. member for New Ross
to his place, and, if he should then refuse an explanation,
that we should act accordingly.
Mr.. BRIGHT—The hon. member. for Buteshire appears
to me to have suggested a course which the house ought to
follow; and, considering the position which he holds, his
advice upon a question of this nature is particularly valu-
able. The hon. member for New Ross is charged to have
used words offensive and, as the hon. member who has just
sat down says, " insulting" to the house. Acting upon
the feelings which prompted the hon. gentleman to the
course he has taken, I think it would hardly be fair fur the
house to compel him to come in and to arrive at a conclu-
sion upon this subject. We also should only be guilty of
conduct equally unjustifiable and hasty with that of the
hon. member, if we were, after 12 o'clock at night, to pro-
ceed to adjudicate upon what occurred but a few minutes
before. (Hear, hear.) Ido not think that we should be
doing justice either to the hon. member or to our own cha-
racter if we did not take the course which has been pointed
out by the hon. member for Buteshire. I believe that
the hon. member was under a delusion with regard to
what he said ; but, that being so, I think we should be
taking a course beneath our dignity if we refused to give
him time for an explanation. (Hear, hear.) After the
hon. member for New Ross has slept upon this matter—
anungaht
whiche m
willa
lsatisfactory.eo come
edown
and
I d o hope
make
a thatfull theex-
house
debate.will agree to the motion for the adjourmeut of the

Mr. V. SCULLY—I would object to any motion which
would take any hon. member by surprise. I regret very
much that any hon. member should have placed him-
self in this position, and should have refused to accept the
advice which was tendered by the noble lord the member
for London. As an Irish member myself—as ono who
voted with the Government upon the income tax division
upon conviction—(laughter)—l think that on this occasion
wo were not taking the lion. member by surprise, and that
the sooner this charge is brought to an issue the better.
(Hear, hear.) No member has a right to assert anything
like a libel upon his brother members without being
able to substantiate it, and, notwithstanding the advice
of the hon. member for Manchester, I do hope that
an independent conclusion will be arrived at. I beg to
call to the minds of hon. members what occurred. I
had spoken on the question of the consolidated annuities,
and I had stated that there were certain gentlemen who
took a different view of that question from me, who were
not interested in the land of Ireland. The hon. member
for Now Ross, in noticing this point of my speech, turned
to me and, addressing me personally, stated that, if there
were members on his side of the house who had no interest
in the consolidated annuities, neither had they any interest
in Downing-street. Following that up, the hon. member
stated that there were some few Irish members on this (the
ministerial) side of the house who had given conscientious
votes the other evening, when some of my friends called
out " Some few, indeed !" but no explanation was
given. Following up the same point still, and look-
ing at us hero pointedly, he used the expression
which has been referred to, and which every one of
us understood as an extremely gross insult—(hear, hear)
—and I, for one, certainly could not but feel very in-
dignant at it. We called out " Name ! name !" and the
hon. member said over and over again, " I am perfectly
L ready to name." I confess I wish the hon. member could
, come in and either adopt the construction which the hon.
3 member for Meath has put upon his words, and state that
he meant nothing insulting to us, or that he would adopt
the alternative suggested by the right hon. gentleman
the member for Buckinghamshire--that is to say, that if he
will not retract or explain the expressions he has used, he
should do what he has said lie was prepared to do—name
the gentlemen to whom he alluded ; and then, if any hon.
gentleman thinks it necessary, let him move the adjourn-
ment. (Hear.)
Mr. CONOLLY rose amid loud cries of " Oh !" He
said—l am happy to say that I was not in the house when
some disgraceful scene—as I collect from what has fallen
froth hon. members—must have occurred ; but I beg to
submit to you, sir, and to the house, that the course indi-
cated by the right hon. gentleman the Recorder of London
is, under all the circumstances, that which seems to me the
best. (Cries of " Divide !") In saying this, I am not in-
fluenced by any feelings on either side. If an offensive ex-
expression has been used, time should be given to the hon.
member who used it to reflect maturely upon the expres-
sion, and to come in a rational state of mind either to
apologise for and retract, or to substantiate it, like a man
of honour. (Hear, and laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—I stated to the house before, that I
did not think it would be becoming in me to point out
what course it ought to pursue. Since then two courses
have been suggested—one by the right hon. gentleman the
member for Buckinghamshire, and the other by the right
hon. gentleman the Recorder of the city of London. The
right hon. gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire
suggests that if the hon. member for New Ross will state
certain names a committee should then be, appointed for
the purpose of investigating the charges against the per-
sons so named. Now I confess that I do not think that
there is a course which it would be proper for ns to pur-
sue. (Hear, hear.) It seems to me that it would be a
most unbecoming course for us to expose hon. members,
without any apparent reason or cause, to imputations
which are not specified. (Hear, hear,) In cases of this
kind there ought, I think, to be some sort of charges
affixed to persons who are supposed to be guilty, and that
merely appointing a committee to ioquire into the con-
duct of members would be a very unjust and unbecoming
course for us to adopt. (Hear, hear.) The proposal of
the right hon. gentleman the Recorder of London, that the
debate should be adjourned till we meet again, will give
time to the hon. member for New Ross, and to the mem-
bers of this house, to consider what course they ought to
pursue. I certainly have often found that cases which
were exceedingly difficult have, by adjournment, been
easily brought to a conclusion, and therefore I am pre-
pared to support the motion of the right. hon. gentleman
the Recorder of London. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. BALL.—As I have been personally alluded to by
some hon. members, I beg to say that I should be the last
to wish to put the hon. member for Newßoss in a position
where he might be tempted to utter things which it would
be difficult to retract. At the same time, with reference
to the suggestion of the hon. member for Cork, that the
hon. member should either at present or to-morrow adopt
the construction which had been put upon his words by
the hon. member for Meath, I have to say that that would
neither be creditable to himself or the house ; and, there-
mfoerembinersewxphro essing my concurrence in the views of hon.
have
suggested an adjournment of the debate
I do so in the hope that the house at its re-assembling will
see that the charge which has been made is met in a proper
way— be in a
mt.
way,
I(Heamera,n, in which such a serious charge
should hear.) I beg to say, at the same
time, that I did not understand that the hon. member
looked at me when he made the charge. It never entered
my head that he did ; and, if it had, I do not say that I
should have been so forward to move in the matter. But
the hon. member having cast—l will not say a slur—but
one of the heaviest imputations possible on a large body of
lion. members who sat behind me, I cannot think but that
it was due to them, as well as to myself, to take the course
I did. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Serjeant SHEE—I am not in the position of the hon.
member for Donegal (Mr. Conolly), for I have heard the
whole of this unpleasant discussion, and I must acknowledge
that I am not at all surprised that my hon. friends say col-
leagues in the Irish representation, should have taken offence
at the words which were used by the hon. member for New
Ross. i At the same time I confess I did not understand
them, nor I think any
reflecting person can understand
them, in the offensive sense which has been put upon them
in the heat of this evening's debate. (Cries of " Oh !" and
" Hear, hear.") Is there a single man in the house who
believes that the hon. member for New Rose meant to say
that in his presence, and under his own eyes, anything like
pecuniary corruption had taken place ? (Cries of " Oh !")
My hon. friend the member for Tavistock may have so un-
derstood it—(hear)—but I am sure that any man at all
acquainted with the Irish representation—(laughter)—or
with my hon. friends opposite, knows perfectly well, and
they know themselves, every one, that nothing of the kind
was intended. (Hear, hear.) But that does not conclude
the question, I admit, because there may be corruption in
other ways than by pecuniary
bribes—(hear, hear)—and if
any one of us, at our elections, had been proved to hare
given an office, or to have used our influence in obtaining
one, it would have been corruption in the ordinary souse
of the word—(hear hear)—and I cannot help thinking that
if hon. members will for a moment get rid of that feeling
of irritation naturally excited by such words as my hon.
friend used, they may find, and must find, a meaning for
what he said which does not impute personal dieleonour to
any member of this house—(cries of "Oh, oh !" and laugh-
ter)—and which does not impute anything to which right
hon. gentlemen on the Treasury bench ought or can when
the thing is properly understood—(The rest of the sentence
was lost in the laughter of the house.) I must ask the
house to permit me to call their attention to the position
in which the hon. member for New Ross stands, and the
feelings that may actuate him, and which will account
for the language he has used. (Hear, hear.) He has been
but a sherti ime member of this house ; he came into this
house one of a party 60 or 70 strong -(hear, hear) pledged,
as he believed, by every assurance that could bind mon
together in political action—(hear, hear).—to oppose every
Government. (Ironical cheers) Do let me submit to the
justice and generosity of Englishmen that it is not right to

interrupt a man in the middle of a sentence--(loud laugh-
ter)—and put a meaning on his words which every one
who hears me know they do not bear. (Hear.) I repeat,
that he was one. of a party 60 or 70 strong (No, 50 !
Laughter.) Well, what does it matter whether it was 50
or 60 ? but a party pledged to oppose every Government—
(hear, hear)—which did not support those measures which
he and a very large majority of his countrymen deemed
essential to the interests of his country. (Hear, hear.) I
ask the house to remember what I suggested, that corrup-
tion may be by office as well as by a pecuniary bribe.
(Hear, hear.) Let us see whether we cannot find a mean-
ing for those words which impute no personal dishonour
to my honourable friends opposite, in any sense in which
we understand dishonour (hear, hear, and laughter)
—but which may be so in the sense which my honoura-
ble friend the member for New Ross has fitly described
as a sort of corruption practised in the days of Wal-
pole and Pelham. (Hear, hear, hear, and loud cries
of " Divide !") At the early part of the session, when
the right hon. gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire
was in office, that party, 50 or 60 strong— (a laugh)—went
together as one man intp the lobby and overthrew the
Government. (Laughter.) After the right hon. gentle-
men had done what I shall always think was a statesman.
like act—(laughter)—sent, for calm consideration upstairs,
a bill upon which the hearts of the people of Ireland were
fixed—(hear, hear)—the noble lord at the head of the
Government, I believe the next day, in the House of
Lords, having disavowed that conduct, and protested that,
whatever the report of the committee might be, he and his
Government would oppose that bill, we went into the
lobby 50 or 60 strong. The Government was changed, and
office was given to some members of that party. (Hear.)
I am one of those who think, and I shall never have the
least hesitation in avowing it, because I do not share in
many of the opinions of my hon. friend the member for
New Ross, and do not take so determined a view of Irish
politics as he may naturally do—but I am one of those
who think that, two hon. gentlemen of that party having
taken office—being gentlemen of most unexceptionable
character in public and in private life—(hear, hear)—of
very considerable ability—who had distinguished them•
selves on this side of the 'house in opposition to the noble
lord the member for London when in power—it may at
least be a matter of doubt whether the Government did
not, in offering office to these gentlemen, mean an earnest,
a token of reconciliation, to the Irish Catholic represen-
tives in this house ; but that was not the view taken of it
in Ireland, or by my hon. friend the member for New
Ross—(hear)--and I have not the least doubt, though I
have had no communication with him on the subject,
that when he talked of corruption being practised under
his own eyes since he had had a seat in Parliament, he
meant that hon. members of that house had been induced
to abandon the course they had taken, and had declared
their determination to follow, and that the Government
had broken up the party purposely determined to break
its /strength in this house, by use of those means which
were used in the clays of Walpole and Pelham, by giving
office to those honourable members. (Hear, hear.) I
have certainly heard the office of Solicitor-General spoken
of as an inferior office ; but we do not generally consider
it such. (A laugh.) Neither do I think it quite
right to talk of a Lord of the Treasury as very inferior ;
and I say it with no disrespect to my hon. friend the late
member for Carlow, a most respectable gentleman, and a.
member of an honourable profession, but it was high pro-
motion to him to be appointed a Lord of the Treasury.
(Hear, hear.) Then, let me ask whether the words used
by my hon. friend the member for New Ross were used in
the offensive sense some gentlemen seemed to think ? No
one supposes that either of those hon. 'gentlemen had re-
ceived a bribe under the eyes of my hon. friend, and I
think we have been somewhat hasty in judging my hon.
friend so severely, and that it is possible, after all, when
the explanation is given, it will be found that what I have
said was not said by my hon. friend, because, having had
angry discussions with the hon. and learned member for
Athlone, and the late hon. member for Carlow, he would
be reluctant to mention their names in that house, and
would not impute dishonourable conduct to them, which
their friends knew was not the case. (Hear, hear.) You
cannot exactly put yourselves in the position and feel in
the same manner as those felt who, having the deepest in
terest in the happiness of their country, thought the best
way to promote it was to maintain a strong compact party
in this house. (Hear, hear.) Those who so felt have been
greatly disappointed at the course adopted by some hon.
members of that party, as far as we know, -without any
pledge or assurance that those measures would be taken
which we all deemed essential to the well-being and pros-
perity of Ireland.

Sir G. GREY—I wish to call the attention of the house
to the precise question before it. The only question you
have had put from the chair is that which was submitted
to you by the right hon. and learned Recorder of London
—that the consideration of this subject should be adjourned.
until this day at 4 o'clock. No other course has been sug-
gested in the shape of a motion, and I think the house will
act wisely in agreeing to that proposition. (Hear, hear.)
I think a few hours' reflection will induce the hon. member
for New Ross to take that course which—after having
uttered words which I cannot help thinking were uttered
in the heat of debate, and not with delibration, justly
offensive as I think those words were— (hear)—hon. gen-
tlemen are accustomed to take in this house. (Hear.) He
thought it consistent with the character of the house
that they should allow the sug,gested interval to elapse
before coming to any decision ; but, in recommending that
course, he was anxious to s'iate that he should not feel him-
self justified in doing so if he felt that the slightest impu-
tation rested on auy one of these members to whom the
allusions of the hon member for New Ross had been offen-
sive.

Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD, who rose to speak, but was
met with loud cries of " Agreed," was understood to sup-
port the motion of the right hon. and learned member for
Bnteshire (Mr. S. Wortley).
Mr. W. 0. STANLEY did not wish to prolong the de-
bate, but desired to suggest to the house the propriety of
making an addition to the motion before them, to the
effect that the hon. member for New Ross should be de-
sired to attend in his place to-morrow (this day) at four
o'clock.
The motion was then agreed to, with the addition pro-
posed by the hon. member for Chester (Mr. W. 0. Stanley).
The Municipal Corporations Act Amendment Bill and
the Exchequer-bills Bill were read a second time.
The Sales of Bullion Bill passed through committee.
RYE WRIT.

On the order of the day being read for resuming the de-
bate (adjourned from Monday) on the motior, for a new
writ for Rye,

Mr. BAS'S, after presenting a petition against the issue
of the writ, proposed that at so late an hour (past one
o'clock), the debate be further adjourned.
Mr. WALPOLE thought, that after what had been
stated in the former discussion , the evidence ought to be
in the hands of members beforr, they decided upon the case.
Lord J. RUSSELL agreed in that view. It had been
suggested that corrupt practices, in the way of loans to
the electors, could not be dealt with by the house without
a new act ; he had his doubts whether that was so ; he also
had his doubts whether any writ should issue again for the
borough of Rye.
After a short conversation, the debate was again ad-
journed.

ENTAILS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the order of the day for going into committee on this
bill,

Mr. DUNLOP expressed a wish that it should be post-
poned.

The LORD-ADVOCATE states, that there had been a
meeting of Scotch members on this bill, and there was
only one amendment-to be considered. He pledged him-
self, on bringing up the report, that a full opportunity
should be afforded for discussing the point.
Mr. DUNLOP, with that understanding, had no objec-
tion to the bill passing through committee.
The bill then passed through committee.
SLIGO ELECTION.
The SPEAKER intimated that he had received a letter
stating that it was not intended to proceed with the peti-
tion against the return.

SHERIFF COURTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The LORD-ADVOCATE moved, that the following gen-
tlemen be nominated the select e,onlmittee on'this bill :
The Lord-Advocate, Mr. Walpol,a, Mr. Hume, Mr. Napier,
Mr. Solicitor-General, Mr. Cb.arteris, Mr. Edward Ellice,
Mr. Mackenzie, Mr. Cumming Bruce, Mr. Fergus, Mr.
Dunlop, Mr. Kinnaird, Mr. Craufurd, Mr. Hastie, and
Mr. M'Gregor.
After a short discussion the motion was agreed to.
Mr. CRAUFURD then moved that the committee have
power to send for persons, papers, and records.
The LORD-ADVOCATE opposed the motion.
Mr. EWART and Mr. DUNLOP supported the motion.
Mr. COWAN suggested the debate should be adjourned.
. The motion for the adjournment of the debate was
agreed to.

-On the motion of Mr. RICE the Select Committee on
Police was ordered to consist of the following names
Mr. Rice, Mr. Sotheron, the Lord-Advocate, Mr. Walpole,
Mr. Fitzroy, Mr. Burroughes, Lord Lovatne, Sir John Trol-
lope, Mr. Rich, Mr. Moody, Mr. Mackie, Mr. Brand, Mr.
Charles Howard, Sir James Anderson, and Mr. Philipps.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of.
The house adjourned at five minutes past 2 o'clock.

MINT AT SYDNEY.—The Government have announced
that no part either of the staff or machinery for the
establishment of a mint at Sydney has yet been sent
out. An officer has been appointed to superintend the
affair, and he is in communication with Sir John
Herschel, but as respects the period at which the
requisite arrangements are likely to be completed
nothing is stated. It is now two years since the
gold discoveries in Australia took place, and it was
soon pointed out not only that the establishment
of a mint would prove desirable, but that much of
the advantage to be derived from such a step would de-
pend upon the speed with which it might be decided
upon. As far back as the beginning of August last, after
much time had been wasted by correspondence between
the colony and the mother country, a resolution of
the Legislative Council at Sydney was transmitted to the
Home Government, requcisting that proper officers might
be forthwith nominated, and that three presses and an en-
gine should be shipped, this resolution being followed in
November by a remittance of 10,0001., in accordance with
the estimate furnished. It might, therefore, have been
supposed that by the present date some positive state-
ment could be obtained of the probabilities of the task
being completed ; and, although it is asserted by the
Government that na time has been lost, it is difficult
to avoid the impression that if the matter had been
in the hands of any private mercantile firm, it would
have met witli greater dispatch. Meanwhile, the
anomaly of an amount equal to many millions
sterling of gold being constantly in progress across
the ocean in one shape in order that it may be
returned in another still continues ; and, although
from the recent tendency to an advance in the colonial
quotations of the price per ounce, there is reason to be-
lieve that remittances from this side are not likely hence-
forth to yield much profit, they will probably yet go on
for several months, the establishment of the mint taking
place just about the period when the chief opportunities
for its use will have reached a termination.
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