The Sun.
London, England, 1854-06-02 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EV_ENENG, JUNE 2. 1854.

METROPOLITAN SMOKE.
Lord REDESDALE gave notice that on the 9th
instant he should ask whether the Secretary of State for
the Home Department proposed to issue orders to the
Commissioners of Police, with reference to the enforce-
ment of the provisions of the recent act for the preven-
tion of the smoke nuisance in the metropolis.
CRIMINAL LA W CONSOLIDATION.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the house
would recollect that the Commissioners for Consolidating
the Criminal Law had prepared certain bills, which he
had laid before the judges for their opinions, and that
these opinions were already upon their lordships' table.
He had now to lay upon the table seven other bills pre-
pared by these gentlemen, and he would move the first
reading of them in order that they might be printed.
When this was done, he should propose that all the bills
together with the opinions of the judges, should be re-
ferred to a select committee. .
The bills were then read a first time.
The LORD CHANCELLOR informed the house
that her Majesty had given her sanction to a bill for re-
versing the attainder' against Lord Lovat. He would
explain the circumstances of the case upon the second
reading of the bill.
The house adjourned at a quarter to 8 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS--(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following bills were ordered to be considered and
read a third time :—Great Western Railway (Berks and
Hants, &c.) ; North and South Western Junction Rail-
way ; Portsmouth and Direct London and Portsmouth
Railways ; Shropshire Union Railways and Canal.
The following bills were read a third time and
passed :—Chesterfield Market ; Exhibition of 1851
Commissioners ; LKirkby Lonsdale, iKendal, and Miln-
thorpe Road ; Lowestoft Improvement (No. 2) ; Ox-
ford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railway (Ch-
ping Norton Branch) ; Tacumshin Embankment Tor-
nioham and Saint Mary Church Gas.
PETITIONS.
Petitions were presented by Sir W. HEATHCOTE, from the Fellows of Jesus College, Cambridge, praying for the extension of university honours to the Dissenters of
Wales ; by Mr. CORRY, from Strabane and other places
in the county of Tyrone, praying that union workhouses
in Ireland may be allowed to make arrangements for
closing poor-houses in which there are but few paupers,
and transferring those paupers to the neighbouring
unions ; by Mr. H. W. WiczaAm, from the ecclesiastical
district of St. James, Bradford, Yorkshire, praying that
public-houses and beer-shops may be closed during the
whole of the Lord's-day, except to lodgers and bona fide
travellers.

.. T

Lord D. STUART entertained a great objection to
this resolution, because it interfered- with the opportu-
nities which independent members had for discharging
their duty in the house. Hitherto the privilege which
the motio❑ for adjournment afforded to independent
members had not been abused to any considerable ex-
tent, and he should stoutly resist its abrogation.
Mr. HUME observed that there were only two op-
portunities of this kind when independent members
could bring questions under the notice of the house,
and it would neither be for the advantage of the mini-
ster or the public that they should be curtailed.
Mr. DISRAELI, having been a member of the com-
mittee who had recommended this resolution, was an-
xious to record his opinion upon it, and to state the
reasons which would induce him to vote against it
should it go to a division. This was a popular privi-
lege, exercised on the whole very much for the public
advantage, and if they abrogated this custom of formally
moving the adjournment of the house on Friday until
Monday, they would probably give occasion for much
inconvenience in the conduct of public business. The
functions of the house were not wholly of a legislative
character ; the house should be the exponent of public
opinion ; sometimes they led it ; sometimes they more
advantageously followed it, and the country would not
be satisfied unless it was felt out of doors that indepe-
pendent members had these opportunities for expressing
the dominant feelings of their constituencies.
Mr. E. DENISON quoted the opinion of the late Sir
R. Peel against regulating the proceedings of the house
by restrictive rules, and pointed to the experience of the
United States senate as tending to confirm that opinion.
Lord J. RUSSELL believed a restrictive resolution
of this kind to be effective must have the general con-
currence of the house. At the same time it was a very
proper proposal for the committee to assent to. It was
not so much founded upon what had been the actual
practice of the house as to guard against what appeared
this session to be a growing feeling to make the motion
for adjournment the occasion for bringing on a variety
of discussions, or making Friday a regular day as it were
for notices of motions. However should that disposition
increase, it would be still in the power of the right hon.
baronet to renew this resolution ; but since it was not
likely to meet with the general concurrence of the house
now, he would recommend him to withdraw it.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—Out of deference to what ap-
peared to be the se.nse of the house, consented not to
take a division on the resolution.
Mr. BOUVERIE strongly deprecated the practice of
bringing miscellaneous subjects forward on the motion
for adjournment without previous notice, and insisted
that the time would come when for its own sake a reso-
lution of this nature would have to be adopted.
After a few words from Capt. SCOBELL and Mr. BRIGHT
by way of explanation,
The resolution was withdrawn.
Mr. EWART gave notice that on Tuesday fortnight
he should move that in future select committees should
consist of eleven members, to be appointed by the Com-
mittee of Selection.

REPORT ON MR. STONOR'S CASE.
Mr. SOTHERON, the chairman of the select com-
mittee appointed to inquire into the appointment of Mr.
Stonor to a judgeship in Australia, handed in the report
come to by the committee. It was not read by the
clerk, as was generally expected.

OPENING THE PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS ON
SUNDAYS.
Mr. HUME gave notice that on Tuesday fortnight
he should move for leave to bring in a bill to throw
open the British Museum and all other public collections
of works of art and curiosities on the Sundays as long
as houses for the sale of gin and other intoxicating
liquors were allowed to be sold on the Lord's-day.
BLOCKADE OF RUSSIAN PORTS.
In reply to Mr. MASTERMAN,
Sir J. GRAHAM said, distinct orders had been sent
out to blockade all the Russian ports, both in the Black
Sea and the Baltic, and these blockades would apply to
ships of all nations. A squadron of the English and
French fleets had been sent out to the White Sea, but
without instructions to institute blockades.
MANNING THE NAVY BILL AND THE
NAVY PAY BILL.
On the motion of Sir J. GRAHAM, the lords' amend-
ments to these bills were considered, and agreed to.
GREECE AND TURKEY.
Lord J. RUSSELL brought up the correspondence
respecting the relations between Greece and Turkey,
which was ordered to lie upon the table.
WHITSUNTIDE RECESS.
Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that to-morrow he
until
should move that the house at its rising should adjourn
Thursday next.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Sir j• PAICINGTON then rose to move the following
resolution :
"That it be an instruction'
have power to /flak. bills may be committed, this,t they
whole house to which bills w all committees of the
. such amendments therein as they
shall think fit, provided they be relevant to the su,ltlect
not be within the title of thelfY
matter of the bill ; but that •
accordingly, and do report the
" That the questions for reatirn° SP
time in a committee of the whole°
"That in going through
for the filling up words already such amendments si 'All
bill, they do amend the title
specially to the house..
itecs, and
g a bill a first and second
a hill
hhaouse be. discontinued.
prclnutztitor shall be put
commonly called blanks, unless exception
thereto ; and if no alterations have been made in the Words
so printed in italics, the bill shall be reported
without
amendments unless other amendments have been made
thereto.
" That on a clause being offered on the consideration of
report or third reading of a bill, the Speaker do desire the
member to bring up the same, whereupon it shall be read
a first time without question put.
"That Lords' amendments to public bills shall be ap
pointed to be considered on a future day, unless the house
in any case shall order them to be considered forthwith.
" That every report from a committee of the whole
house be brought up without any question being put.
" That bills which may be fixed for consideration in
committee on the same day, whether in progress or other-
wise, may be referred to a committee of the whole house,
which may consider on the same day all the bills so referred

THE VIENNA PROTOCOL.
Lord .J. RUSSELL, by command of her Majesty,
brought up the protocol signed by the Four Powers at
Vienna on the 23d of May. It was ordered to lie upon
the table.

INCOME TAX BILL.
On the motion fur the third reading of this bill,
Colonel DUNNE asked if the allowance on interest
charges on estates in Ireland would apply to the double
as well as the single tax.
Mr. WILSON said the only object of the bill before
the house was to increase the amount of the income tax ;
it in no way varied the conditions and terms of the in-
come tax of last year. The special commission appointed
t the first instance for Ireland had been rescinded ; but
th ere was an arrangement by which special commis-
sioner 3 etill sat in Ireland periodically, for the purpose
of hearing appeals, and that entirely answered the pur-
pose for which the commission was appointed.
The bill was then read a third time.
Mr. WILSON brought up a new clause for the pur-
pose of preventing the returns of poor rates under the
act Cif last year from being made quarterly, and providing
that, they shuuld be made only at such times as the corn-
tnisiiioners pleased.
Mr. IJUME asked whether the Government had
aken any precaution against the defalcations of the col-
ectors ? It was a most mischievous circumstance not
) have these tax-eollootors under the control of the .

".; Ir

friend for the opportunity which he gave him of explain- to it, without the chairman leaving the chair on eadi sepa-
ing this subject, as it was one of ranch importance and rate bill; provided that, with respect to any bill not in
also of some difficulty, considering the means of trans- Progress, if any member shall raise an objection to its con-
port at disposal of the Post-office. With regard to the sideration, such bill shall be postponed.
Baltic fleet the arrangements were these. Upon the
"That the house, at its rising on Friday, do stand ad-
Tuesday in every week a mail was made up in London Mourned until the following Monday, unless the house shall
and despatched by Belgium and Prussia to Dantzie, have otherwise ordered."
The admiral in command had received instructions from The right hon, gentleman reminded the house that
the Admiralty to send a steamer from the fleet every already within the last few years two committees had sat
week to meet the mail at Dantzic, and convey it upon the subject of the forms of the house, and great
thence for distribution. The same steamer of course changes had been made in those forms. The business of
the house was gradually on the increase. In 1847-48
brought letters from the fleet, to be returned to
t
England by the same channel as the mail from the number of committees was 215 ; last year
this country. In regard to postage, by a convention en-
they were 232. Last year the house passed 366
tered into by Great Britain, a postage of Bd. was payable private, bills and 200 public bills ; but perhaps the
able on letters to Dantzic, and thus, being under enwiffe-
entries on the votes would afford a better com-
merit to Belgium and Prussia, England could not rreduceparison of the increase in the public business in
the sessions of 1847, and as the number was 10,412 last
the amount of postage below Bd. on officers' letters. As
regarded seamen's letters, her Majesty's Government had year, the entries had reached to 11,378. The effect of
made arrangements whereby the postage would be re-
this increase was to extend the sittings of the house into
dueed to sd. Newspapers could not be conveyed by the August, and greatly to hurry the despatch of public
Dantzic route, because according to the arrangement business towards the close of the session. Under these
with the Prussian Government there was no means of circumstances a committee was appointed to consider
prepaying newspapers to Prussia, and the papers could what change could be made in the forms of the house,
not leave Dantzic until the postage upon them was paid, and these resolutions were the results of theirdeliberations.
There were, however other means of communicating
commendations as he could have wished ; but after all,
sports despatched from this country—and this mode,
these changes in the forms must be left, in a great
though longer and more circuitous, would be cheaper, measure, to the forbearance of members. They must
Letters by this latter means would be conveyed at a penny be content to abandon some of the privileges which they
per letter, and newspapers entirely free, It was impos-
enjoyed under the existing rules, and abstain from pressing
Bible, of course, to give accurate statements of the time unimportant subjects upon the attention of the house. The
committee examined three witnesses, viz., the Chairman of
of these vessels departing, as that depended upon circum-
Ways and Means, Mr. Erskine May, the author of a sten-
stances. He would, however, mention that during May
dard work oil the forms of the house, and the Speaker, and
five vessels were sent out, and that during April four
were despatched. There was every probability that upon the strength of their recommendations he drew up
a series of resolutions embodying their views, but they
the departures in future would be quite as frequent. In
were unfortunately rejected by the committee. Having
respect to the suggestion that letters should be sorted
explained the nature of each of these resolutions he con-
wishedeluded by stating that the committee rejected them and
before they were despatched from the London office, he
to state he doubted very much whether greater d
a opted those which it was now his duty to move. He
delay and inconvenience would not arise from that
course than from leaving them to be sorted on board,
therefore moved the first of these resolutions accord-
He-
understood the practice to be that upon the mail lubo.lY.
Lord S
EYMOUR hoped the house would confine its
arriving at the fleet the idlers were directed to occupy
themselves in sorting the letters according.to their ships, attention to the resolutions before them, and not go out
and upon their being sorted signals were put out for the of the way to discuss those which were rejected by the
various vessels to send boats for their letters. If the committee. Now he, for one, was opposed to this first
sorting took place in London, it would be necessary that
resolution,to
otheexisting course of proceeding.
were, and this he thought would be a greater inconveni-
believing that it would be far better to adhere
\
mr. E v
letters should be posted at an earlier hour than they now
ART objected to establish a rule which should
ence than the short delay which now occurred in sorting,
allow a bill to go into committee in one shape and come
out ' mother, He regretted that some of the recommen-
With regard to the delay which had taken place in the
lotions of the witnesses called before the committee
transmission of some letters addressed to the Baltic
fleet, the noble lord had anticipated the reason. It was, were not adopted. Mr. GREENE supported the motion, as did also Sir
as he seemed to suppose, that they had been misdirected.
In fact some had been sent to the Post-office, Copen-
W. HEATHCOTE,
hagen, before the fleet had arrived out there. The next Mr. HUME thought it would be dangerous to make
point to be referred to was the communication with the the change proposed by the resolution, which he thought
Black Sea. He must begin by stating that the facilities m was wholly uncalled for •
of correspondence which the army and navy were to
r. HENLEY agreed with the noble lord that the
enjoy were very much owing to the considerate liberality
balances of convenience and inconvenience was against
the
of the French Government. The whole postal service proposed change.
in the M Mr. BOUVERIE supported the resolution.editerannean was at the present time, and Air' V. SMITH was at a loss to understand hew the
. They despatched six steamers a month from
arseill to Constantinople, which form a very fro- .
had been for some time, in the hands of that Govern- h
c ange could expedite the progress of public business.
meat.
Mr W. WILLIAMS expressed his disappointment
quent and secure means of communication. Very
Mes
matetnhdeed that these resolutions should be referred back to recommendations of the committee. He recom-
shortly after the first division of the forces had reached the committee
Turkey, the Emperor of the French signified to the Si , •
r G. GREY said he would confine himself to the
Post-office of this country that he desired that all question before the house wth
the conveniences—of frequency, security, and cheapness
ut , hich arose on ion—whether the practice of moving in e fistrurst reso-
ctions to
—enjoyed by his own seamen and troops in the East,
should be enjoyed by the seamen and troops of Great committeesi should continue. Owing to an alteration of
Britain. The result of this was, that the despatch of a ate session those instructions could only be moved on
letters to the Eastern army would take place six times a the first night on which the house went into committee. The opportunity of doing so, was, therefore, abridged ;
month, and the charge for letters under a quarter of an
ounce would be but 3d. ; that amount franking them and on this ground he thought it desirable to agree to
from this country to Constantinople. The share of that the first resolution.
3d. taken by the country would be only id., the remain- Sir J. PAKINGTON said he should take the sense of
der being the foreign postage. The noble lord (Beau-
the house on the first resolution,
mont) had also asked whether any arrangements had Mr. BRIGHT hoped the noble lord (Seymour) would
been made for facilitating the postage service from head- not give the house the trouble of dividing. He thought
quarters through the Turkish territory. In reply to it quite immaterial whether the resolutions were carried
this, he had to state that the precaution had been taken or not.
of appointing two officers of the post office to act as Lord J. RUSSELL doubted whether any great prac-
tical advantage would be dedived from the resolution,
postmasters to the army. These gentlemen would in a
short time be at their posts ; one of them at Constanti-
and was almost indifferent as to which way he should
vote.
nople, and the other—most probably, for this was not
Lord SEYMOUR said he would not trouble the house
actually arranged—at the headquarters of the army. It
to divide.
was right to explain to their lordships that the low rates
of postage would apply only to those letters which were nd and 3rd. 2 The first resolution was then agreed to, as were the
1 bona fide letters for seamen, officers, and soldiers, and On the 4th resolution, authorising new clauses, on the
not to any mercantile correspondence, The liberality of
the French Government had reference, of course,
consideration of a report or the third reading of a bill,
to the troops and to the seamen and officers of thesole! fleet-y
The safest mode of addressing letters to the fleetwas put. to be brought up and read a first time without question
proposed an amendment, extending
simply to state the name of the vessel on board of which
the Mr. BOUVERIE p
the person addressed served, adding " resolution to proceedings in committee. Baltic" or "Black After a few words r
Sea Fleet," as the case might be. It was desirable that
Sir G. Grey, Mr. W from Malpole, and. Henley, Lord J. Russell,
Mr. Hume)
persons should not mention any port or post town in
the address, for that course would probably cause much The
agreed tresolution,
o as amended by Mr. Bouverie, was then
.
delay. Letters to the army should be directed to the
Mr. BOUVERIE moved the following addition to
regiment of the person addressed, adding thereto either the resolution :—" That no clause shall be offered on
" Constantinople," or " Army in the East."
the report or third reading without notice."
After a few words from Lord COLCHESTER, Agreed to.
Viscount CANNING said that he ought to add to the
The fifth and sixth resolutions were also agreed to
post-paid.
statement which he had made thatall letters ought to be after a short discussion.
On the last resolution being put,
Mr. BRIGHT said he considered this was the most
important of the whole. The object of the resolution
seemed to be to diminish talk and to oblige the house
to proceed to work. It seemed to him to be a great
mistake to think that the passing of bills was the only
duty of the house, and that no advantage was derived
from the reading of the debates which nightly took place
in that house. (Hear, hear.) He thought they ought
to be cautious before they gave up the opportunity of
pulling up the Government now and then. (Laughter.)
He was not to be supposed hostile to the Government,
particularly as he sat on their side of the house.
(Laughter.) But on whichever side of the house he
sat, if even a member of the Government, he should
think it desirable that the executive officers of state
should find that there were left some few opportunities
of stimulating them to good, and keeping them back if
possible from evil. (Laughter.) He should, therefore,
causerequest
ho
th:,as housesatsfie
notid t
toh consentthat
tit
was thisftoar
betterrso to h
luthma,vebea-
mattersregular
thanopportunityt
lithat
memberslike
should h
this for discussingavean i
nd
ocuccaesmi oennatl
to violate the proceedings of the house by making pro-
positions for adjournment which were not intended to
ybeeal‘aridsrl.tiehFree.rdeFthßad
to.
Mr,
been
a s remarkedtea,
iy encroachment that for lastthe
u pt
privileges of independent members ; and the h
should be cautious not to adopt such a resolutiowonnoenutahtsysee
this.

• f c

,

",

Chancellor of the Exchequer. Let the Government
appoint those collectors, and be alone responsible for
their conduct.
Mr. BUCK trusted that the honourable Secretary of
the Treasury would not lose sight of this matter. Great
burdens had been thrown upon the county rates by
those defalcations.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS also urged the importance of a
satisfactory arrangement of this matter.
The clause was then read a first, second, and third
time, and was added to the bill.
The bill was then passed.
THE STAMP DUTIES BILL.
On the suggestion of Mr. HADFIELD and Mr. W.
BROWNE,
Mr. WILSON consented to the postponement of the
committee upon the bill until Monday week.'
OXFORD UNIVERSITY BILL.
The house then went into committee on this bill.
On clause 26,
Mr. E WART said he had an amendment to propose, the
objectof which was to enable students to reside in private
lodgings as well as in halls. This was a part of the ancient
constitution of the University. Formerly there were three
hundred hostels where students were allowed to reside ;
and if the house wished to restore the spirit of the ancient
university, it should place it in the power of the students
to live in the town at a moderate expense. This was not
only conformable with the ancient character of such insti-
tutions, but it was the best way of enabling poor students
to avail themselves of the advantages of university educa-
tion. He was convinced that this was one of the most
essential amendments that could be made in the bill ;
that the colleges would not suffer from it ; and, above
all, that the nation would derive the greatest advan-
tage. The hon. member concluded by moving to insert
after the word " convocation" "resident householder in
Oxford."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
hon. member proposed to go back, without mitigation, to a
state of things which he presumed to have existed, and
which substantially did exist at one time, in the university.
He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) thought it was a very
dangerous thing for any one age to imitate the manners of
another. To import the precedents of five or six hundred
years back without considering the consequences which
they involved was very hazardous. He was not prepared
to accept the ancient system of the university in full, for
this reason, if for no other, that that was a state of things
which belonged to a turbulent period, a period when the
ideas of discipline were of an entirely different character.
The discipline which existed at that period was ecclesias-
tical discipline ; and, notwithstanding the fact that eccle-
siastical discipline was then at its height, the universities
were among the most turbulent places in the country.
There were not only rows like those which had been known
in modern times, but frays and fights tending to break up
the peace of the city were of common occurrence. He did
not mean to say that that was precisely what would follow
from the amendment; but one of the consequences he ven-
tured to predict would be that the corporation of the city
of Oxford would at once make a considerable addition to
its police force. (Laughter.) Tho hon. gentleman had
cited the case of the Scotch universities. He (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) deprecated the founding of an
argument on them. Ho was bound to say that, to the
credit of Scot:and, the power of individual self-control and
self-government was greater in Scotland than in England;
and it was most dangerous to argue that, because the system
succeeded in Scotland, it should be introduced into this
bill. The Government proposed to go as far as they
could towards the old university system, without break-
ing up personal discipline. The discipline of the uni-
versity at the present moment was far from being per-
fect. At the same time it was real discipline, and there
was exercised through the medium of it a considerable
amount of salutary control over the conduct of the stu-
dents. He did not think the house would assume the re-
sponsibility of breaking up the system. Was the amend-
ment compatible with that system or not ? What did the
Government propose, and what did the hon. gentleman
propose? The government proposed that members of con-
vocation should be entitled, provided they conformed to
certain fixed statutary conditions, to open their residences
as private halls, and to receive there young men, who
should, to all intents and purposes, be endowed with all the
privileges of the university. His hon. friend must admit
that that proposition was a bold step; (Hear.) It was a
considerable variation from the existing system; but he was
convinced it was a safe variation. Under clause 41 the uni-
versity was to lay down rules for the regulation of the house.
The person who opened the house must be a member of the
university, responsible to the university, and if his conduct
were such as to justify such a proceeding, his name might
be struck off the books. In fact, there was not a mere
paper system of safeguards, but a real working system ac-
companying the arrangement. It was a very different
thing to allow any one, us his honourable friend proposed
to do, to open a lodging-house for the reception of stu-
dents. He would not enter into the system of lodging-
houses, lest he should offend Cambridge University; but
he thought it would be most unsafe to allow open
houses at Oxford to be dignified with the name of
halls. The restrictions to be imposed would of course be
inapplicable to the keepers of private lodging-houses, who
might be men of straw, or something worse than mon of
straw. The Scotch universities did not say that any per-
son who received students should be entitled to call his
house a hall ; and, for his own part, he thought it would
be better to leave a lad of 16 entirely to himself than to
consign him to the system proposed in the amendment.
Without going further, ho thought he had assigned suffi-
cient reasons for not acceding to the hon. member's pro-
posal, (Hear.)
Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE thought his hon friend (?fr.
Ewart) could hardly be aware of the actual state of things
at the period to which he had referred. Most of the old
chronicles abounded in desciiptions of the furious con-
flicts of those times ; such scenes not being confined to the
English universities, but extending to foreign ones con-
ducted in a similar manner. He believed the proposal
now under consideration originated in an article in the
Edin6urgle Review, from the pea of Sir Wm. Hamilton,
who, though one of time most acute logicians this country,
had ever produced, had on this point forme,' a most erro-
neous opinion. In " Henry's History of Great Britain,"
it was stated that the English universities were in ancient
times frequently disturbed by conflicts between the stu-
dents, the southern English generally combining against
the northern English and the Scotch, and that this led
many to resort to other places of learning. The advocates
of the proposed change seemed almost entirely to have
overlooked the importance of discipline. (Hear.)
Mr. BLACKETT thought that any provision which re-
laxed the present college monopoly would have a tendency,
if not now, in future years to open the university to dis-
senters. He heartily supported the amendment.
Mr. WIGRAM hoped the committee would bear in mind
the opinion given by the Cambridge commissioners that the
introduction of any such system would be fatal to the dis-
cipline of the university. As reference had been made to
Cambridge, he would state that no such system as this, or
anything approaching to it existed in Cambridge. The sys-
tem in Cambridge was that the masters of the colleges had
a right to give a privilege to young men to reside in lodgings
under such restrictions as in their judgment was necessary.
These restrictions were such as to enforce discipline. There
was a regular return every morning of the hours at which
young men returned home at night, and the young men re-
siding in lodgings were required to attend chapel in the
morning, and to go through the same discipline as those
resident in the colleges. Such a scheme, therefore, as that
proposed by the hon. member for Cambridge would be a
scheme which at Cambridge there was not the slightest
similitude to. He put it to hon, members whether any of
them would send young man to an university established
on a principle such as the hon. member for Dumfries
would introduce, a system by which he would have largo
bodies of young men collected together not subject to any
discipline whatever.
Mr. VERNON said he could not support the amend-
ment, but wishing to see the university extended he should
support the clause with great satisfaction.
Mr. PHINN observed that though he concurred very
much with the hon. member for Dumfries, both in the
object which he proposed, and the reasons which he stated,
he hoped be would withdraw this amendment.
Mr. R. PHILLIMORE also suggested that the amend-
ment should be withdrawn.
Mr. HEYWOOD said it appeared to him that the amend-
ment was of the first importance. Although according to
the forms of the house it was not possible to move now that
the Dissenters be admitted into the Universities, it was
'their duty to provide that if the Dissenters were admitted
they should be enabled to live comfortably there.
Mr. HENLEY said he objected to the amendment on
many grounds. He believed that its adoption would quite
break down the present university discipline. The proposal
in the bill of private halls was bad enough, but this was a
great deal worse.
Mr. AGLIONBY cordially supported the amendment.
Mr. EWART having said a few words in reply,
The committee divided—
For the amendment
Against it ll2-71
The amendment was therefore lost.
On the motion of Mr. R. PALMER and the SOLICITOR-
GENERAL, some verbal amendments were agredlo.
Mr: MOWBRAY then moved to omit the words
"as a private hall," in lines 14 and 15. A great
authority, Dr. Twisden, president of St. Mary's Hall,
had given it as his opinion that there was no want
of aceommodation in the colleges. This 26th clause
was inconsistent with a subsequent one, which took away
all preferences to indigent students.. He doubted whether
the proposed private halls would be any boon to poor
students. They would mostly be opened by masters of
arts, who would take care to be well paid for the accom-
modation they afforded. At present lodgings might be ob-
tained in Oxford on sufficiently reasonable terms. The
only purpose which these private halls would serve would
be to encourage parties. He objected to them also as tend-
ing to destroy the moral discipline of the university. The
hon. gentleman concluded by urging that both on principle
and authority ho had shown that it would be unwise to
adopt the proposed plan, which was a recurrence to a sys-
tem in Oxford which had been tried, failed, and been given
up, and from which the university had been for three cen-
turies relieved.
Mr. G. VERNON said his hon. friend had referred to
a remark of his to the effect that ho thought one of the
advantages which would arise to the university from this
clause would be the ultimate admission of dissenters.
Now he wished to guard himself by saying, that in using
that expression he only alluded to the admission of dissen-
ters to the university, but not to degrees or any of the
emoluments of the colleges. His hon. friend had spoken
of the difficulty which would arise in the case of a private
hall on the death of the master ; but the 41st clause gave
powers to the university to meet such a case.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would sug-
gest that the issue raised by the hon. gentleman was not a
convenient one. The amendment as it was moved did not,
affect the substance of the clause, and, as a matter of ar-
rangement, it might be as well to omit the words in this
clause and insert them in the next. The amendment did
not now touch the real question in issue.
After a few words from Mr. NEWDEGATE,
The amendment was then formally agreed to.
Mr. GOULBURN rose to move as an amendment, in
line 16, after the word " and," leave out to "entered," in
line 17. He said he should not have taken part in the de-
bate, had it not been stated that the principle here laid
down with regard to a new system of education would be
extended to Cambridge. Had it been left in the power of
the university to decide on the adoption or non-adoption
of the system of private halls, he would not have said a
word; and, considering the alterations which had been
made in the governing body, that decision might well
have been left to them. Feeling, as ho did, that the change
of discipline proposed would affect his own university, he
felt compelled to move the omission of words, which he
thought the essence of the clause.
Mr. ItOUNDELL PALMER said no system in his
opinion was so elastic, or so capable of meeting the demand
of the country for university education, and at the same
time affording equal securities for discipline, as that pro-
posed by this clause.
Sir J. PAKINGTON considered that the arguments of
the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) had not inen

A BOLD PILOT.—A Russian East Indiaman, having
twenty-one hands on board, and laden with rice, ma-
hogany, and other valuables, had been taken p)ssession
of by the Rose revenue cutter, and brought into Sheer-
ness, through the instrumentality of an English pilot,
whom the captain, to his sorrow; had taken on board to
pilot him up the Channel,

answered by his hon. and learned friend, and that the sta-
tutes proposed by the university last month would do
more to extend the advantages of that institution than the
present proposal.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought it might now be assumed
that it was desirable the benefits of the University of Ox-
ford should be extended, and that a larger number of
young men should receive the advantage of that which was
intended as a national good. If that was the general opi-
nion of the committee and of the country, then came the
question, how was that object to be effected ? It had
been proposed by the commissioners that householders
'in Oxford should be enabled to receive students as
lodgers, who should have the benefit of a university educe
tion, but that proposal had been discussed and rejected.
Then there was the mode of having halls in connection
with the colleges, but it was obvious that this plan would
furnish but a very moderate degree of extension. There
was then the mode at Cambridge where a great number of
undergraduates lived in lodgings, but were at the same
time connected with the different colleges. But the disci-
pline maintained by that means it must be owned was im-
perfect, for it was quite impossible that the head of the
college could preserve effective control over persons who
were not living in the colleges but lodging with house-
holders in the town. Both these plans being thus objec-
tionable, they then came to consider that ofthe private
halls. In point of economy the commissioners gave strung
proof in their report of the evidence of the head of the hall
of Durham ; and Mr. Colles stated that a relation of his,
who was at that establishment, was admitted in three years
to holy orders—the whole expense incurred not being more
than 300/., while at Oxford a young man would hardly ob-
tain his degree for less than 8001. But this was a ques-
tion not for the young man, but the parent. Take, for in-
stance, a person who was not poor, but who was only in
possession of moderate means— no matter whether his in-
come was derived from a small landed property or from
trade—he might be in possession of sufficient means to en-
able him to send his son to the university, provided he was
not exposed to the rivalry of expense and expenditure that
now takes place there. Well, then, would it not be a
great temptation for such a man to send his son to Oxford,
if there was a person of well-known character and attain-
ments at the head of a hall who should maintain disci-
pline in it, and at the same time take care that the ex-
penditure of the young man was kept within bounds.
But, on the other hand, it had been objected that halls
of this nature would be opened for the accommodation or
encouragement of the gay and thoughtless ; but those
who urged this objection forgot that the power of send-
ing young mien to the university would not rest with
themselves but with their parents and guardians ; and
it would be no temptation to them to say, " Here is a
hall open to the gay and thoughtless." (Hear, hear.) But
if they could find an establishment like a private hall under
the responsible management and guidance of a man well
known and educated at Oxford, where the expense would
not be great, and where strict attention would be paid to
the morals of the student, it would be a great temptation
for parents to send their sons there. Let them create such
a feeling as this, and the object of this bill, which was to
extend the usefulness of the university, would be obtained.
But at the same time he must confess there were evils con-
nected with a university education in this country which
neither this bill nor any other legislative measure was
likely to overcome. Those faults belonged to the manner
of life which prevailed in the upper walks of society, and
which allowed so much liberty to young mon of wealth and
station, that it was difficult for any discipline to prevent
their extravagant and luxurious habits which set a very
bad example to the young men of less means. There were
reasons that could be urged in favour of that state of
things, no doubt; but for his part, ho wished some means
could be devised which should have the effect of placing
young men of wealth under the sage discipline that be-
longed to poverty. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the ob-
jection which had been raised against this clause on the
ground that it would admit the Dissenter to the advan-
tages of the university by a sort of back door, all he could
say was, that such an objection came with an ill grace from
gentlemen who refused to admit Dissenters into the uni-
versity under any circumstances. He was asked by them
how it was that he did not propose to admit the Dissenters
in a straightforward manner. Why, simply because he
could not carry such a proposal; but, at some future
time he should be ready to admit them. He believed
the University of Oxford was calculated to diffuse the
great benefits of education over the country; but, what-
ever might be said in favour of the system of education that
prevailed there, he thought the time had come when it
should be more widely extended in the manner proposed by
this clause, which he trusted the committee would readily
assent to. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WALPOLE believed they were all agreed as to the
necessity of extending the benefits of the university and its
system of education; but then came the question of how
that extension was to bo accomplished. His own difficulty
in this was this • the clause took the means or mode of ex-
tension out of the hands of the university authorities. The
university had been actively engaged in extending its sys-
tem of education, by throwing it open, not merely to the
higher but to the middling or lower classes, and it was not
fair or judicious to force upon them a system which Govern-
ment thought best, in preference to the system which they
themselves felt to be best. He confessed that objection
alone to the clause, if there were no other, and there cer-
tainly were many, would be sufficient to make him vote
against it. In his opinion the clause was directly at
variance with those which followed it.
Sir W. HEATHCOTE thought it his duty to vote for
the experiment which this clause was to effect. When he
looked to the increasing population of the country, and
noticed that not one thousand persons matriculated each
year, he thought it was plain that something faulty existed
in the university. He thought that the clause as it stood
would meet the requirements of very many who were now
excluded from Oxford. (Hear, bear.)
The committee divided—
For the clause
205
For the amendment The clause was then agreed to, as was also clause 27.113-92
Lord J. RUSSELL said—.As the house is tolerably full,
I will just state that it is proposed to make considerable
alteration with regard to the remaining, clauses of the bill.
The discussions which have taken place on parts compa-
ratively easy show that a very great length of time would
be occupied by discussing in detail the numerous clauses
that yet remain. Ido not propose at present to enter into
any explanation or discussion of the clauses which are pro-
posed to be substituted ; but I will say in few words, that
we propose that the commissioners shall have certain
powers which, if the colleges agree to thorn, or unless they
dissent from thorn by a majority of two-thirds, shall enable
the commissioners to enact certain statutes in regard to the
colleges. The clauses which I propose to introduce for
that purpose are four or five in number, making with
those that are retained 14 clauses to be disposed of ; so
that the whole number of clauses in the bill will be 42 in-
stead of 68. Sixteen clauses, of very great detail, will be
omitted. It is not my intention to state the plan, still
less to discuss it, until the clauses are in a printed shape.
What I propose, therefore, is to add these clauses—ornit•
tins the clauses that are to be left out—and going into
committee afresh ; or, if that course be not thought conve-
nient, give notice of the clauses, have them printed, and
to let them wait till Monday week, when we propose to
consider the bill again. I believe the most convenient
course would be to re-commit the bill, and to print it with
the amendments already stereos]. to by the committee,
power of course being reserveds to re-discuss them on the
report. lam prepared, however, to adopt any course
which may be deemed best. I now propose that the chair-
man should report progress, and that we should take the
billrro. WALPOLE,prrow.ma to-mo
M who was very indistinct, was under-
stood to say that his apprehension of the noble lord's
meaning was that the effect of the additional clauses would
be to give the commissioners the power of making certain
alterations, unless the colleges made them.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he did not know that the power
of the commissioners would be more extensive, but th ey would be less confined than they were as the bill stood at
present.
Mr. WALPOLE said the great objection which he had
always felt to the bill was that a sufficient amount of free-
dom was not left to tho university and the colleges. What
' he wanted to know, therefore, was whether they would
have greater freedom under the bill in its amended form.
Mr. GOULBURN said the committee could hardly enter
into that matter till they had the amended bill. (Hear,
hear.) After its recommitment, the bill would be almost
a now one.
Mr. DISRAELI thought it would be very convenient
to the house if the noble lord would give a general answer
to the general inquiry of his right hon. friend (Mr. Wal-
pole). (" Hear, hear," from the Opposition.)
Lord J. RUSSELL was really afraid of misleading the
right hon. gentleman by giving a positive answer to his
question. His own opinion was that the clauses with re-
gard to the university were not so much affected as those
with regard to the colleges. His impression was that
greater liberty was left to the colleges.
Mr. HENLEY said they (the Opposition) were now
asked to consent to an alteration in the bill which would
make it a new bill ; and it was hardly fair that they should
not have reasonable time to communicate with those who
were most interested in the matter;
Lord J. RUSSELL said, in order to give more time he
Thwould propose that the bill should be proceeded with on
ursday se'nnight.
Mr. HORSMAN said,, understanding that the powers or
functions of the commissioners were to be considerably en-
larged, he wished to know whether the Government were
disposed to reconsider the composition of the commission.
(Cheers from the Ministerial sides)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that point had been considered,
and as at all events the commissioners would have con-
siderably more labour, tit) Government proposed to make
an addition to their number. (Hear, hoar.)
Mr. PHINN would suggest to the noble lord to consider
whether, as the main interest of the discussions had been
concentrated on the connexion of the different schools
with the university, the commissioners should not have
power to make internal regulations with regard to the
schools, so as to bring them into harmony with the uni-
versity. He felt certain that any arrangement which did
not include that would be quite futile.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the bill
was ordered to be re-committed this day.
PUBLIC REVENUE AND CONSOLIDATED FUND
S BILL
T CHARGE his bill was read' a second time.
CRIMINAL PROCEDURE BILL.
Mr. AGLIONBY moved the second reading of this
bill, observing that the main object of it was to lessen the
contamination of gaols by shortening the duration of im-
prisonment in the case of persons charged with trifling
offences. He admitted that the machinery was not per-
fect, but it might be amended in committee.
Mr. MILES protested against the house proceeding at
so late an hour with a bill every clause of which involved
a principle.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, though he approved
of the main provision of the bill, the object of which was
to allow accused persons to plead guilty before a magistrate,
and to save the necessity of sending them to the assizes or
sessions, he thought a bill of so important a nature should
not be proceeded with at that hour (1 o'clock).
Mr. AGLIONBY then consented to postpone the se-
cond reading.
CHURCH BUILDING ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
On the motion for the third reading,
Mr. HADFIELD expressed some misgivings as to this
bill, which had been materially altered since it first came
before the house.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL briefly explained.
The bill was read a third time and passed.
EXCHEQUER BONDS ((i,000,000/.) BILL.
This bill went through committee.
INDUSTRIAL AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
The house rose at 20 minutes past one.