The Sun.
London, England, 1853-07-12 00:00:00

those who were set at liberty without restrictir
Now he (Lord Grey) did not think it would 1-
possible to establish some such plan at hoi -
hear.) Means might be devised, for instam,e, by
which persons discharged from prison might be com-
pelled to reside in a particular district, and to give
an account to the police how they earns ' their living.
If means were also taken to furnish such persons with
employment (which in the present state of the labour
market might easily be done) the danger of abolishing to
any great extent the transportation system would be very
materially diminished. (Cheers.) When he (the noble
earl) was Secretary of State, he wrote to the different
colonies telling them that they would not be permitted
to send convicts any longer to the penal settlements, and
he advised them, therefore, to endeavour to improve
their system of secondary punishments. Amongst the
measures he recommended to them for that purpose was
a plan of the kind he had described; and that was adopted
by the Legislature of Barbadoes. The system had been
found to answer extremely well there, and he did not
see any reason why it would not work as well in the
mother country. He would not trouble their lordships
with any further remarks upon the bill, except to say
that although he had asked many noble lords if they
understood the 12th clause, he had not succeded in find-
ing one that could do so. That clause proposed to enact
that transportation should include " banishment beyond
the seas." What did that mean ?

The LORD CHANCELLOR explained that the clause
had been inserted, because he had found that by the
Scotch law there were some few offences that were
punishable by " banishment beyond the seas."
Lord BROUGHAM greatly regretted that transpor-
tation was about to be in any large degree abolished,
because it possessed many advantages which belonged
to no other secondary punishment whatever. In the
first place, it was as easily apportionable to the offence
as any secondary punishment could be. In the next, it
had a reformatory tendency, which no other punishment
possessed to an equal extent. Thirdly, it had ter-
rors which no other system could inspire ; and, lastly, it
relieved the community from a number of offenders,
the turning loose of whom upon society he could
not contemplate without some apprehension. It appeared
from the valuable work of the noble earl who had last
spoken, entitled, "The Colonial Policy of Lord J.
Russell's Administration," that there were no fewer
than 48,000 persons in the different colonies who origi-
nally were sent out under sentence of transportation.
Forty-eight thousand convicts withdrawn from society,
and in some degree reformed, or, at all events, prevented
from contaminating the community—that, at all events,
was a fact which greatly increased, in no small degree,
his regret and alarm at the discontinuance of
_transpor-
tation. (Hear, hear.) However, it was a good old
maxim that when they could not have what they liked,
they must try to like what they had, and that ought to
induce them to cherish, with a view to improving as
much as possible, the system of sapgagiarjkppuishments
which they already- possessed. HugRE tliere was a
great deal of sound sense in the recommendation of the
noble earl (Lord Grey), and that some such modification
as the noble earl had described ought to be introduced
into the plan proposed by the Government. No doubt
it was quite true that at present a great anomaly did
exist, and that it was necessary to terminate it as soon
as possible. At the same time, it was equally desirable
to retain the good that did result from the present prac-
tice. Whatever system of secondary punishments
might be substituted in the place of transportation, his
anticipations regarding its effect in deterring others
from the commission of crime were, he confessed, ex-
tremely small. According to his view, prevention was
that to which a law giver would direct his attention,
and if he were to state that education was one of
the best preventives, he should only be stating that
which now-a-days was an unfruitful truism. He
considered, however, infant training as the mostim-
portant of all preventives. The criminal population
consisted 'of a certain proportion of the entire popu-
lation, and if they had a sufficient number of infant
training schools for the children of the criminal popula-
tion, they would be adopting one of the most effectual
means they could to prevent crime. Another requisite
was a good police. One great objection to the extension
and improvement of the police was the expense. He
believed the expense would be cheerfully borne. An-
other was the distrust which might be thereby occa-
sioned, but which he believed would be confined to the
dishonest part of the community, Another means of
prevention was reformatory institutions. That had
been tried in this country, in a town in Warwickshire,
and it had been found there to be very successful. He
trusted that Government would consider these various
means of prevention, and adopt them as far as prac-
ticable.

The Duke of NEWCASTLE regretted, in common
with other noble lords who had spoken, the necessity of
reducing the punishment of transportation to its mini-
mum. He concurred with them in the advantage of
the present system. There seemed, however, to be an
agreement on all hands that out of regard to our colo-
nies it was necessary to reduce this punishment. He
hoped that out of this evil good might yet come, for he
could not help thinking that, with the cessation of
transportation to the extent to which it was now carried,
the Government and the whole inhabitants of the coun-
try would turn their attention to the improvement of
our penal system. He did not anticipate that this bill
now on the table would be by any means the last that
would be brought in on the subject. The noble earl ob-
jected to limiting the term of transportation. The reason
was twofold. In the first place, those who had watched
the progress of penal servitude, as it was called by this
bill, were of opinion that the time now allotted would be
too great for the endurance of criminals, and would be a
much heavier amount of punishment than that for which
it was substituted. In the second place, as their lord-
ships were aware, sentences of seven years' transporta-
tion had not been ordinarily carried into effect, but the
convicts had been liberated after three years' punish-
ment. Two years was the minimum, but three years
was the average. It was proposed by this bill to award
four years, which was in effect a year longer than a no-
minal seven years' transportation. At the same time it
was worthy of consideration whether they should not in
the first instance award a heavier punishment, with a
power to the executive to shorten the period as a reward
for good conduct. Another suggestion by the noble
earl was whether the ticket of leave system, which had
worked so well in the colonies, might not work well in
this country. The attention of Government had been
turned to that point, and his noble friend on the wool-
sack would make a proposition respecting it on going
into committee. One difficulty was whether the con-
victs should have tickets of leave given them to live
under surveillance in any part of the country, or whether
they should be permitted themselves to select their re-
sidence in any part of the country, or in any particular
county or district. That was under consideration.
Public works which were now going on, defensive works
and harbours of refuge, facilitated a measure of that
kind. His noble friend (Earl Grey) asked what was
proposed to be done with regard to those criminals who
had already been sentenced to transportation, and to
whom promises had been made by announcements hung
up in the prisons, that they should be sent to the colo-
nies with tickets of leave. He thought his noble friend
at the head of the Government had already answered the
question, but he would repeat that if this bill passed in
the form in which it now stood, they would suffer no
longer punishment in the prison than was provided to
future prisoners. That would apply only to culprits in
the prison to whom promises had been made. They had
accumulated, but were no longer increasing, as the pro-
mises were withdrawn as soon as it was ascertained that
the punishment of transportation was to cease. With
regard to the capability of the prisons to hold an in-
creased number of prisoners, he apprehended there
would be no difficulty, and that it would not be ne-
cessary to incur any expense before Parliament met
next year.

Lord CAMPBELL cordially supported the second
reading of the bill. The principle of the bill he took to
be to make law and practice correspond. There had
been for years past a lamentable discrepancy between
them, which had rendered the administration of justice
painful on many occasions. He himself, when called
called upon to pass sentence, had felt inwardly that it
was a mockery. This bill substituted reality for fiction.
When he said he approved of the bill, it must be under
the well understood protest, that this was not the re-
quiem of transportation. Transportation on its present
scale could not continue. He had never said that we
could continue to force convicts on Van Diemen's Land,
but he had said and should ever say that transportation,
in the language of his noble friend, who opened this
discussion, was the best secondary punishment
that ever
was invented. And when he agreed to this bill, it must
be understood to be without prejudice to the Govern-
ment using efforts still to continue transportation. At
the present time they would only have Western Aus-
tralia, but he thought new places might be found. He
was told by those conversant with the subject, that
there were other spots on the great continent of Australia
to which they might advantageously send convicts, and
it might be done to the Falkland Islands. He hoped
that Government would use their best efforts to continue
transportation in that way.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE hoped that there
would be some clearer statement as to what was to be
done with the convicts to whom promises had been
made, because he understood that from 800 to 1,200
would be let loose upon society in this country.
The bill was then read a second time.
CHANCERY SUITORS RELIEF BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
SAVINGS BANKS ANNUITY BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill.
The clauses were agreed to after a brief conversation,
in which Earl Powis, Earl Granville, and the Lord
Chancellor took part, and the house having resumed,
the bill was reported forthwith.
The Bishop of OXFORD presented a petition from
Banff, praying their lordships to reconsider the laws re-
specting Scotch ordinations.
Their lordships then adjourned at a quarter past eight
o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(Y ESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at 2 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Lords amendments to the South• Eastern Railway
(North Kent Railway to the Thames, &e.), and the
Wildmore Fen and East and West Fens Highways Bills
were considered and agreed to.
The following bills were read a third time and passed :
—Chard Railway, and Pouhiasheitry Inclosure.
The reports upon the following bills were considered
and agreed to, and the bills were ordered to be read a
third time :—Eastern Union Railway, Warrington and
Aitrincham Junction Railway (Warrington, &c.), West-
minster Improvements (Dwellings of the Working
Classes).
The Hall Dare's Estate ; Sneed Park Estate Erns,
were read a second time.

Mr HonsraLn and Mr. LIDDELL, the two new mem