The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-06 00:00:00

ing to mak:e a remark respecting Mr. Hale, when loud cries
of "order compellad him to resume his seat.
Lord D. STUART had heard what had fallen from the
noble lords the Secretary for the Home Department with
very great pleasure. lie had understood him to say that
there was no evidence implicating any person whatever,
except Mr. Hale, who was under prosecution, and there-
fore
it followed that all the statements which had been
made
to implicate Kossuth in these proceedings, as if he
had been -abusing the hospitality of this country 'by enter-
ing into rinlawful designs and preparing to levy war on a
country with which we were at amity, were but baseless
fabrics and unfounded calumnies. (Hear, hoar, and
cheers.) The accusation had gone out to the' world that
large stores of ammunition had been discovered in a house
in the occupation of Kossuth, and the whole world was
called upon to execrate a man who, after has:ng received
the hosj )itality of this country and being delivered from the
dangers to which he had been exposed, could so disgrace
himself. Now it turned out that all that was an imagination,
a vile imagination of persons animated by some rancour
against Kossuth, who had always shown themselves
to be in the interest of Austria and Russia, and
who had persecuted that man by all the means in their
Power because of his opposition to those governments in
bravely and nobly defending the constitution of his coun-
try. (Hear, and cheers.) Instead of waiting to hear what
the verdict in the case would be, those persons hastened,
in their malignant spite, to condemn Kossuth unheard,
and in order to hold him up to detestation they assumed at
once that he was guilty, and referring to what might be
called the centre of the city of Loudon, the rooms whore
'she municipal body of the city of London assembled, they
dared to point out that Guildhall was not far from the Old
Bailey. He (Lord Dudley Stuart) could not help saying
that, after the statement they had heard completely excul-
pating Kossuth from these vile accusations, seine circum-
stances or events might possibly occur which, in the end,
might demonstrate that if Guildhall were not far from the
Old Bailey, there was another place, called Printing-house-
square, which was still nearer to it. (Hear, hear.) Ho
thought that the declaration of the noble lord did him hon-
our. He was glad to find that her Majesty's Government
were not concerned in those proceedings which had been
attributed to them. It had been said, and he believed
ti uly, that the noble lord the Secretary for the Home
Department had been the main cause, if not of saving the
life of the illustrious man to whom he (Lord Dudley
Stuart) had referred, at any rate of his being delivered
from captivity, and now enjoying liberty. (Hear.) He
knew that there was another Government, that of the
United States, which laid claim to this merit, and he ren-
dered full justice to the noble feeling which the American
Government and nation had displayed on that occasion,
but at the same time he believed that they might have
used what means they pleased, and have carried on what
negotiations they could, but that if it had not been for the
noble lord then at the head of the Foreign-office, those un-
fortunate patriots would still be detained in prison at
Kutayah. (Hear, hear.) It would, then, be a melancholy
spectacle, if afterwards in this country the noble lord were
to treat those refugees in a manner worse than the Turkish
Government had ever treated them. The Turkish Govern-
ment had detained them in captivity to please Austria and
Russia, but it had not done so of its own free will, rand its
proceedings bad been perfectly open - when its prisoners
went out to take exercise they wore followed by soldiers ;
they were tricked by no men in disguise, nor by the police
of the Government. Ho (Lord Dudley Stuart) said that it
was a nobler course to take to tell these men that they
were prisoners, and to treat them as such, than to tell them
that they enjoyed all the rights and privileges of the sub-
jects of this country, while at the same time they were
basely watched by persons in disguise. (Hear, hear.) He
thanked the noble lord for his declaration, and if he re-
gretted any 'shing it was that the noble lord had not taken an
earlier opportunity of making that declaration.
Mr. BRIGHT—It appears, I think, from what has taken
place, that the noble lord at the head of the Home Depart.
ment has been engaged in that undignified employment of
hunting for a mare's nest. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) I
agree with my hon. fiend the member for Finsbury as to
the paltriness and shabbiness of these proceedings, even as
regards Mr. Hale, but I do not think that the case with
regard to Kossuth is of the same character, nor that it
ought to be regarded by the house in the same light. (Hear,
hear.) One is a simple affair of a mischievous police inter-
ference, which turns out to be nothing at all, and is of
a very different character from that which has induced
me to advert to this subject. The noble lord says that he
has no evidence whatever on which to found any charge in
connection with these transactions, except against Mr.
Hale. How far he has any grounds against Mr. Hale we
have beard, for it appears that the noble lord would be
glad to get out of the mess he is in, if he did not think that
it would be undignified for the Government to give up the
prosecution. But the noble lord knows the impression
which has been created on this question; first, by the
statements in the newspapers, and afterwards by the noble
lord's own statement in this house. Ido not charge the
noble lord with having made any direct accusation against
Kossuth ; but the house will recollect that in all his for-
mer observations the noble lord studiously avoided saying
anything flat could be quoted as clearing the character of
Kossuth, and he left the statements of the Times news-
paper to have their full effect upon the world, although at
the time he was in possession of precisely the same know-
ledge of the case that he was now, and had the power of
clearing the character of Kossuth. (Hear, hear.) The
Times has been referred to, as it must be with regard to
this matter, and I shall make an observation on that jour-
nal. The Times newspaper, I presume, we all know is a
great power in a mask—(hear, hear, hear) ;—we do not see
the hand that writes those ies ; but there is no man in
London calling himself a gentleman who durst have put
his signature to the article relating to Kossuth. (Hear,
hear, and loud cheers.) There is a gentleman, a member of
this house, who is not now present, but if he were present
I would tell him what I say now, that he durst not—l
speak of one who is notoriously connected with that paper
—I say he durst not have put his name to that article in
which those charges were brought against Kossuth. (Hear,
hear, and murmurs.) I can tell the Times that it was pre-
cisely by conduct like this, by which scandalous and lying
charges were brought against honourable men, that the
press of France lost all character with the people of France,
and that during the existence of the Republic tho middle
class and all the people of Paris looked on with disregard
and almost with pleasure while the papers, ono after ano-
ther, wore brought under the penalties of the law, and,
finally, they looked on without any opposition, and appa-
rently without any discontent, when first of all newspaper
writers wore forced to put their names to every article, and
afterwards three-fourths of all the papers were suppressed.
(Hear.) I am not particularly thin-skinned—I do not com-
plain as caritig one straw about it; but by way of illustration
only, I may mention that the Times of this morning says it is
glad that I had the decency—l speak from memory—not to
appear before Lord Clarendon yesterday with a deputation
which waited on the noble Lord to request that ho would con-
sent to the introduction of a certain clause into the treaty
with the United States, when it is known that the United
States Legislature was willing to have such a clause intro-
duced. The Times says it is well I had the decency not to go
with that deputation, because I had lately been defending
the manufacture of rockets and other warlike stores which
have been so much talked about. Now if Mr. Anybody—
I do not know his name—who directs that newspaper, or
who wrote that article, were to come before the public, do
you think there is any man who walks about the West-end
of London, and calls himself a gentleman, who would have
written that article, and would have attached his name to
it? (Hear, hear.) Well, I say it is a cowardly thing, that
a statement like this should be made ' • and it is doubly in-
famous, when these statements are to be made to under.
mine and to destroy the character of a man suffering under
misfortune, an exile from his country, who is trusted by
millions of his countrymen, and who, though living in
adversity, is yet buoyed up by the hope that some day or
other he may be able to do something for the liberty of his
country. (Hear, and cheers.) I say it is doubly infamous
for a powerful organ of the press to attack a man of that
character without any ground of fact on which to found its
statement, and thus attempt to destroy his character and
reputation, and influence. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord
has admitted two things. He has admitted that there is
no charge against Kossuth or against any other person, ex-
cept Mr. Halo, and ho stated the other night that so long
as ho had been connected with the Home-office, now about
four months, the practice of opening letters had not been re-
sorted to, and I think he entirely and satisfactorily settled
that question. (Hear, hear.) But there is another point
which has been adverted to, and that is the system of
espionage. Now the noble lord, on the 7th of February,
1850, in speaking of the detention of the Hungarians in
Turkey, said that the Turkish Government had undertaken
to confine them for a limited time under surveillance, a
word to which there was no corresponding term in the
English language. Now I wish to ask him this, whether
it be true, as it has been stated, apparently on good au-
thority, that some policemen, or some persons acting as
such, are charged to watch and report upon whatever they
may observe about Kossuth's house? (Hear, hear.) I want
to ask the noble lord whether, if that be so, those proceed-
ings have been taken by the authority of the Home-office,
and whether the expenses connected with them are de-
frayed by the Government or out of any metropolitan rates,
or whether they are defrayed by the Austrian Government
or embassy. (Flea; hear.) I wish that he would clear that
matter up. I believe these proceedings to bo without the
slightest justification. I think what has been stated lately
in the papers has caused an unpleasant feeling with reeard
to the Government and our whole system, that it is notb so
above board as we pretend it is ; and that although we
talk a great deal, and mouth about our system and our
hospitality, that we have shown to exiles we are doing pre-
cisely what is done in many parts of the continent of
Europe at this moment. If the noble lord will give some
contradiction to that statement, as ho has done to others,
there will be no member who will be more happy than
myself to hear it. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. OTWAY said that the noble lord the member for
Tiverton had twitted the honourable member for Man-
chester the other night for his gross ignorance of the con-
stitution of this country, and had said that if there wero
grounds for suspecting any foreigner or Englishman of
being engaged in proceedings hostile to any foreign Govern-
ment he would have been justified in taking those pro-
ceedings with regard to M. Kossuth, which had been
attributed to him. [Lord Palmerston : I did not say that.]
The noble lord had not always entertained such sentiments;
for it was not long ago that he had received at his official
residence in Downing-street a deputation from Islington
which presented an address couched in language somewhat
strong as regarded a Sovereign with whom we were on
terms of amity, and that deputation had resulted in the
retirement of the noble lord from the Cabinet of which he
was at that time a member. For the noble lord now to
turn round suddenly, and to speak of Kossuth and the
other refugees in the tone which he bad used, was a cir-
cumstance which must cause regret to the admirers of the
noble lord.

Lord PALMERSTON : The honourable member has
entirely misstated me. My observations the other evening
applied to what I conceived to be the endeavour of the
honourable member for Manchester to extort from me an
opinion as to the possible result of the proceedings at law
then in progress. (Hear, hear.) I considered him to ask
what would be the effect on Kossuth of the proceedings
then going on ; and I stated that it would be very uncon-
stitutional to give an opinion on that subject. (Hear,
hear.) With regard to the police, I beg to say that what-
ever burden has to be borne on that account, is borne by
this country. (Hear, hear.) The honourable member for
Manchester refers to a statement which I made on a former
occasion, to the effect that what is called surveillance is a
state of things unknown in this country. Now a state of
surveillance is this, that an individual is not allowed to go
beyond certain limits, and he is watched by competent
authorities to prevent him from doing so. Undoubtedly
it is ono of the duties of the police to ascertain whether
the laws of the country are infringed, and if they have
reason to think that any given individual is engaged in
proceedings contrary to the law, it is the duty of the
police to take measures for the purpose of informing the
Government, and if they had reason to think that Kossuth
or any other person was engaged in proceedings contrary