The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-06 00:00:00

ment, unexpectedly to enter into details, but he ought to
be called upon to mention the names of those hon. members
to whom his remarks apply, and we shall then be in a
position to take further steps. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WORTLEY.—I was in hopes, sir, that the hon.
member would have taken some course that would have
rendered further discussion unnecessary. I cannot, for
the life of me, understand, after the language which he
has-held, and the explanation which he has attempted to
give, how he can reconcile the course which he has taken
to his own feelings. (Cheers.) But I think it would be
unwise and imprudent it we were hastily, and at a mo-
ment's notice, considering the present state of feeling of
the house, and the feeling which is within the breast of
the hon. member himself, to call upon him without reflec-
tion to substantiate or to retract charges of this grave na-
ture. (Hear.) If we refrain from this at present it will
be open for him at a fitting time, on a right opportunity,
and when the hon. member is in a fitting state of mind,
either to retract the expressions he has used, and to apolo-
gise to the house for the course he has taken, or, in a
manly, bold, and constitutional manner, himself to move
for a committee of inquiry. (Hear, hear.) Ido not know
what course I can take under all these circumstances, ex-
cept I venture humbly to move that this debate be ad-
journed until to-morrow. (Hear, and.cries of "No, no.")
Yes ; this will give us time to consult precedents, if there
be any, and it will also give an opportunity to the hon.
member to reflect upon what has passed, and to take ad-
vice with reference to it. I am quite sure there is no
desire upon the part of the house to hurry that hon. mem-
ber into a course that may be destructive to him, and I,
for one, suggest that this debate be adjourned. (Hear,
hear, and cries of ," Move !") [After a pause and consulta-
tion with friends near him, the hon. member said :—] My
motion, then, would be, " That the language of the hon.
member be taken into consideration at four o'clock to-
morrow." (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MOORE.—If the disposition of the house be to deal
justly and generously with the hon. member, whether he
substantiates or retracts, it evidently can be only fair that
time should be allowed him to weigh and consider the
whole matter. _ _

Mr. KIRK as one of the Irish members resting under
this ban, I feel that, under the peculiar circumstances and
at the peculiar hour at which this debate is going on, it
would be very unpleasant and " uncomfortable" (a laugh)
that it should be adjourned. The whole of the debate will
be printed in the newspapers to-morrow, and by Sunday it
will be circulated in the most remote corners of Ireland.
We, therefore, shall have to remain under the imputation
of corruption for an entire week; and I think the only cor-
rect course would be to act upol the recommendation of
the hon. member for Buckinghamshire.
Colonel CAULFIELD—Sir, whether the words were
disorderly or not, or whether they ware said in the heat of
the debate, at all events they augur a manifest intention to
offend. That the expressions were " offensive," I can say
for myself. That many hon. members consider them " in-
sulting," I also know. I would, therefore, beg to oppose
the adjournment of the debate, and very cordially to agree
with the expression of the hon. member for Buckingham-
shire, that you should call the hon. member for New Ross
to his place, and, if he should then refuse an explanation,
that we should act accordingly.
Mr. BRIGHT—The hon. member for Buteshire appears
to me to have suggested a course which the house ought to
follow ; and, considering the position which he holds, his
advice upon a question of this nature is particularly valu-
able. The hon. member for New Ross is charged to have
used words offensive and, as the hon. member who has just
sat down says, " insulting" to the house. Acting upon
the feelings which prompted the hon. gentleman to the
course he has taken, I think it would hardly be fair for the
house to compel him to come in and to arrive at a conclu-
sion upon this subject. We also should only be guilty of
conduct equally unjustifiable and hasty with that of the
hon. member, if we were, after 12 o'clock at night, to pro-
ceed to adjudicate upon what occurred but a few minutes
before. (Hear, hear.) Ido not think that we should be
doing justice either to the hon. member or to our own cha-
racter if we did not take the course which has been pointed
out by the hou. member for Buteshire. I believe that
the hon. member was under delusion with regard to
what he said; but, that being so, I think we should be
taking a course beneath our dignity if we refused to give
him time for an explanation. (Hear, hear.) After the
hon. member for New Ross has slept upon this matter—
(laughter)7-he may perhaps come down and make a full ex-
planation which will be satisfactory. Ido hope that the
house will agree to the motion for the adjourment of the
debate.
Mr. V. SCI7LLY—I would object to any motion which
would take any, hon. member by surprise. I regret very
much that any hon. member should have placed him-
rbelfeusleodrdtothe acceptmemtbheeadvice r
thiswhi ephoswitesiont,eannddersehd h
ao
bu should
the a vneofor London. As an Irish member myself—as one who
voted with the Government upon the income tax division
upon conviction--(laughter)—l think that on this occasion
we were not taking the hon. member by surprise, and that
the sooner this charge is brought to an issue the better.
(Hear, hear.) No member has a right to assert anything
like a libel upon his brother members without being
able to substantiate it, and, notwithstanding the advice
of the hen. member for Manchester, I do hope that
an independent conclusion will be arrived at. I beg to
call to the minds of hon. members what occurred. I
had spoken on the question of the consolidated annuities,
and I had stated that there were certain gentlemen who
took a different view of that question from me, who were
not interested in the land of Ireland. The hon. member
for New Ross, in noticing this point of my speech, turned
to me and, addressing me personally, stated that, if there
were members on his side of the house who had no interest
in the consolidated annuities, neither had they any interest
in Downing-street. Following that up, the hon. member
stated that there were some few Irish members on this (the
ministerial) side of the house who had given conscientious
votes the other evening, when some of my friends called
out " Some few, indeed !" but no explanation was
given. Following up the same point still, and look-
ing at us here pointedly, he used the expression
which has been referred to, and which every one of
us understood as an extremely gross insult—(hear, hear)
—and I, for one, certainly could not but feel very in-
dignant at it. We called out " Name ! name !" and the
hon. member said over and over again, " I am perfectly
ready to name." I confess I wish the hon. member could
come in and either adopt the construction which the hon.
member for Meath has put upon his words, and state that
he meant nething insulting to us, or that he would adopt
the alternative suggested by the right hon. gentleman
the member for Buckinghamshire—that is to say, that if he
will not retract or explain the expressions he has used, he
should do what he has said he was prepared to do—name
the gentlemen to whom he alluded ; and then, if any hon.
gentleman thinks it necessary, let him move the adjourn-
ment.. (Hear.) .

Mr. CONOLLY rose amid loud cries of "Oh !" He
said—l am happy to say that I was not in the house when
some disgraceful scene—as I collect from what has fallen
from hon. members—must have occurred ; but I beg to
submit to you, sir, and to the house, that the course indi-
cated by the right hon. gentleman the Recorder of London
is, under all the circumstances, that which seems to me the
best. (Cries of " Divide !") In saying this, lam not in-
fluenced by any feelings on either side. If an offensive ex-
expression has been used, time should be given to the hon.
member who used it to reflect maturely upon the expres-
sion, and to come in a rational state of mind either to
apologise for and retract, or to substantiate it, like a man
of honour. (Hear, and laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—I stated to the house before, that I
did not think it would be becoming in me to point out
what course it ought to pursue. Since then two • courses
have been suggested—one by the right hon. gentleman the
member for Buckinghamshire, and the other by the right
hon. gentleman the Recorder of the city of London. The
right hon. gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire
suggests that if the hon. member for New Ross will state
certain names a committee should then be appointed for
the purpose of investigating the charges against the per-
sons so named. Now I confess that Ido not think that
there is a course which it would be proper for us to pur-
sue. (Hear, hear.) It seems to me that it would be a
most unbecoming course for us to expose hon. members,
without any apparent reason or cause, to imputations
which are not specified. (Hear, hear,) In cases of this
merely
affixedi nd there
oe persons onutginh ,wahl
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eir
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sort
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of members would be a very unjust and unbecoming
course for us to adopt. (Hear, hear.) The proposal of
the right hon. gentleman the Recorder of London, that the
debate should be adjourned till we meet again, will give
time to the hon. member for New Ross, and to the mem-
bers of this house, to consider what course they ought to
pursue. I certainly have often found that cases which
were exceedingly difficult have, by adjournment, been
easily brought to a conclusion, and therefore I am pre-
pared to support the motion of the right. hon. gentleman
the Recorder of London. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. BALL.—As I have been personally alluded to by
some hon. members, I beg to say that I should be the last
to wish to put the hon. member for New Ross in a position
where he might be tempted to utter things which it would
be difficult to retract. At the same time, with reference
to the suggestion of the hon. member for Cork, that the
hon. member should either at present or to-morrow adopt
the construction which had been put upon his words by
the hon. member for Meath, I have to say that that would
neither be creditable to himself or the house ; and, there-
fore in expressing my concurrence in the views of hon.
members who have suggested an adjournment of the debate
I do so in the hope that the house at its re-assembling will
see that the charge which has been made is met in a proper
way—in a way, I mean, in which such a serious charge
should be met. (Hear, hear.) I beg to say, at the same
, time, that I did not understand that the hon. member
looked at me when he made the charge. It never entered
my head that he did ; and, if it had, I do not say that I
should have been b 0 forward to move in the matter. But
the hon. member having cast—l will not say a slur—but
one of the heaviest imputations possible on a large body of
hon. members who sat behind me, I cannot think but that
it was due to them, as well as to myself, to take the course
I did. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Serjeant SHEE—I am not in the position of the hon.
member for Donegal (Mr. Conolly), for I have heard the
whole of this unpleasant discussion, and I must acknowledge
that I am not at all surprised that my hon. friends ray col-
leagues in the Irish representation, should have taken offence
at the words which were used by the hon. member for New
Ross. At the same time I confess I did not understand
them, nor I think any reflecting person can understand
them, in the offensive sense which has been put upon them
in the heat of this evening's debate. (Cries of "Oh !" and
" Hear, hear.") Is there a single man in the house who
believes that the hon. member for New Ross meant to say
that in his presence, and under his own eyes, anything like
pecuniary corruption had taken place ? (Cries of "Oh !")
My hon. friend the member for Tavistock may have so un-
derstood it—(hear)—but I am sure that any man at all
acquainted with the Irish representation—(laughter)—or
with my hon. friends opposite, knows perfectly well, and
they know themselves, every one, that nothing of the kind
was intended. (Hear, hear.) But that does not conclude
the question, I admit, because there may be corruption in
other ways than by pecuniary bribes—(hear, hear)—and if
any one of us, at our elections, had- been proved to have
given an office, or to have used our influence in obtaining
one, it would have been corruption in the ordinary sense
of the word—(hear, hear)—and I cannot help thinking that
if hon. members will for a moment get rid of that feeling
of irritation naturally excited by such words as my hon.
friend used, they may find, and must find, a meaning for
what he said which does not impute personal dishonour to
any member of this house—(cries of " Oh, oh !" and laugh-
ter)—and which does not impute anything to which right'
hon. gentlemen on the Treasury bench ought or can when
the thing is properly understood—(The rest of the sentence
was lost in the laughter of the house.) I must ask the
house to permit me to call their attention to the position
in which the hon. member for Now Ross stands, and the
-feelings that may actuate him, and which will account
for the language he has used. (Hear, hear.) He hal been
but a short t ire° member of this house ; he came into this
house one of a party fio or 70 strong —(hear, hear) pledged,
as he believed, by every assurance that could bind men
together in political action—(hear, hear)—to oppose every
Government. (ironical cheers) Do let me submit to the
justice and generosity 'of Englishmeathat it,is not right to