The Sun.
London, England, 1853-02-26 00:00:00

sergeants, both in the formation and the discipline of its
regiments. (Hear, hear.) He therefore proposed to
increase, by a grant annually of 1,000/. until it

to arms, Lord Hardinge had made great efforts to procure
the best arms which modern science could produce. That
noble lord had sent to America and to every continental
state, and had caused the newest arms to be brought over
to this country, and had instituted numerous trials for the

completed. There was one quota for last year, and another
for this year.
Sir G. PECHELL would like to know the exact state
the militia was in.
Mr. EVELYN regretted that the noble lord would not
afford any encouragement to the formation of volunteer
corps. He believed that in Surrey a very efficient regi-
ment might be raised in that way without costing a far-

reached 2,0001., the sum that could be, distributed for good
service rewards among non-commissioned otacers. With

respect to the vote for half-pay general ' officers re-
duced, and widows of foreign officers, there was,
as there had been for some years past, a considerable di-
minution, though this year it was not so large as usual.
_ _ _

purpose of testing their relative merits. The result of
these trials led Lord Hardinge to hope that he would be
able to produce a weapon lighter and more effectual than
the present musket, and carrying equally as far, but lighter
than the Minie rifle, and with as correct aim and as great

thing expense.
Lord PALMERSTON did not undervalue volunteer
corps, but, being pressed, would admit he could not con-
sider them as efficient, or nearly as efficient as the militia.
That was felt at the beginning of the last war. In 1803
there was a large amount of volunteer force, but after a
couple of years that force was diminished, and the local
militia was substituted in its stead. The committee would
just consider who formed these volunteer corps. Trades-
men, professional men, clerks, apprentices, men accustom-
ed to a comfortable existence, and to take care of them-
selves, not men accustomed to rough it. (Hear, and a
laugh.) And if these men were called out to live in camp,
to sleep in the fields, and to rise with their clothes ringing
wet in the morning, they would all be in hospital in a
week. Besides, what was to become of the business of the
country if men, the most closely connected with it, were to
be taken awe/from their homes and business, and carried
to the coast to serve in the army? Volunteer corps might
bo very useful for the police of the district, or no doubt in
sea port towns, as evidence of national spirit, but he did
not think, as part of the present system of military organi-
sation, that they could reckon on a volunteer force with the
same confidence as on a militia regiment. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WALPOLE observed that in about three months
not less than 35,000 men were raised for the militia, the
most extraordinary instance of recruiting an effective mili-
tary force, as he trusted the militia would become, which
could be found in the annals of this country. (Hoar.)
The object of the militia was to raise a permanent force,
and a force on which they could permanently rely. In the
event of war, they could never rely on a volunteer force
with the same confidence they could rely on a force consist-
ing of men who could not retire from the service when they
pleased. The discipline, too, of a volunteer force was not
so effective, because it was not continued for so long a
time. The Government which preceded the Government
of Lord. Derby were applied to to sanction the enrolment
of four volunteer regiments. When he succeeded to office
he wrote to say they must submit to all the regulations
prescribed by the act of Parliament, and also to inspection.
Three out of the four declined to be embodied on these
nient to induce the Government to go on and sanction
terms. (Hear, hear.) That was not sufficient encourage-
more voluntary corps when they had undertaken the more
effective task of raising a militia. (Hear.)
Sir DE LACY EVANS remarked that the militia
would cost a considerable sum, whereas a voluntary corps
would cost nothing.
Mr. HUME was still dissatisfied. He could not recon-
cile the statements that volunteers were useless, and the
proposal now to vote 88,0001. for volunteer corps.
Lord PALMERSTON thought a voluntary cavalry force
was useful, but that a voluntary infantry force was of very
little use at all. The persons who composed volunteer
corps were totally different from those who composed the
militia. The bulk of the privates in the militia were fitted
for hardships, and for military duty, and were not engaged
in ordinary business. If they carried away to other parts
of the country those who were engaged in the daily busi-
ness of the towns where they resided, it would put an end
to the business of the country.
Mr HUME said the noble lord was now very solicitous
about the business of the country, but on a former occasion
he talked of their being plundered and destroyed and all
business suspended. The noble lord seemed to him to be
blowing hot and cold. (Laughter.)
Sir G. PECHELL was still anxious to know the exact
state of the militia force.
The vote was then agreed to.
On a vote of 20,2501. as rewards for distinguished ser-
vices,

Although there was a considerable diminution in the half-

efficiency. The army would then, he believed, be in a
state of great perfection and -efficiency. (Hear, hear.)
This country must always, no doubt, possess an army nu-
merically small, but there was no reason why that army
should not be drilled and put in a state of the highest effi-
ciency, and made an instrument quite perfect to our hands,
as in other nations. (Hear, hear.) The United States, for
instance, kept a small standing army, but the weapons se-
lected for that amy were those which required the highest
amount of training, and the greatest time for preparation,
in order to be used with efficiency. In the same manner
we had in this country a large artillery force, and if our
army was small in number, the material of it was un-
doubtedly good. (Hear, hear.) We possessed great wil-
lingness and good conduct among the men, and, in fact, all
the necessary materials for making the most perfect army
in the world. The country had a right to expect that the
army to which it contributed so largely should be put in a
state of the most complete efficiency. (Hear, hear.) So
long as he had the honour of occupying the post in which he
was then placed, he should feel it his duty to give every
assistance in his power to such endeavours on the part of
the military boards. At the same time he felt convinced
that by keeping that vigilant watchfulness over the expen-
diture which it was the duty of the War-office to keep, and
keeping down as far as possible the burden of the dead
weight, which, if allowed to increase, could not fail to be
injurious, there was every reason to hope that the country
would see the British army in a state of higher efficiency
than it had ever yet been seen. (Hear, hear.) He trusted
the committee would excuse the length of the details into
which he had gone, and hoped that no difficulty or oppo-
sition would be made to the passing of the vote, which ho
would conclude by proposing. The right honourable gen-
tleman then proposed a vote of 102,283 men, for the

pay, there was an increase in the out-pensioners at Chelsea

of 8,9971., for which it was very difficult to account. It
was the first increase of that choice that had taken place
for some years, and he trusted it would be the last one.
Those were the principal heads of difference between the
present estimate and that of last year. His right honour-
able friend (Sir J. Graham), in moving the navy estimates
the other night, pointed out how great had been the dimi-
nution in the charge by which the country maintained that
force in the present times. But that was nOt peculiar to
the navy. Indeed, he (Mr. S. Herbert) thought in the
army he could show that a diminution had taken place to
a still greater extent. The War-office had been occupied
for a long succession of years by some of the most saga-
cious men who had. ever shared in the administration of
_ _

Public affairs, including Lord Hardinge, Lord Howick,
Sir Bohn Hobhouse, and Lord Panmure. Those were
men who had devoted great care and attention to all the
details of the department over which they presided, and
they had especially met with great success in the efforts
they made, first, in increasing the comforts and well-being
of the soldier ; and secondly, in reducing the expenditure
of that department. In 1835, which was always taken as
the pattern year for economy, the whole estimate was
5,907,782/. ; and in this year it was 6,025,0161., being an
apparent increase of 117,0001. odd. But from the latter
sum—that was, from the whole charge for the effective
and non-effective services—in order to institute a fair coln-

parison between this year and 1835, those items in the eati
mates ought to be deducted which, on the recommendation
of various military authorities, had been added to the esti-
mates since 1835. Then, comparing the two, he found
there had been additional charges placed upon the esti-
mates since 1835 amounting to 250,0001., in round num-
bers ; and therefore, if those were taken off, there would
be a decrease in the present year amounting to 137,0001.
odd. Then it was to be recollected that we had now about
21,000 more men than we had in 1835. It might be said,
in instituting that comparison, he was taking off items of
expenditure which it was impossible to avoid, and which
were necessary for the improvement and efficiency of the
army ; but he could assure the house that the increase
upon the estimate of 1835 had been to a great extent upon
the non-effective portion of it. Taking that into account,
and the sums voted for schools, for the new system of
i
prisons, for barrack libraries, and many other things ntro-,
duced for the benefit and comfort of the soldier, they came
to the result that in 1853 they were maintaining 21,000
more men than in 1835 for a less sum than they spent in
the maintenance of the number of men in that year. He
thought he could show that that was not entirely effected
by the half-pay reduction, for, upon a comparison between
the two years he had mentioned, he found the cost for the
bearing of each man on the estimates had diminished since
1835 by 21. Ils. Bd. Nor was it attributable to any less
regard being now had for the comfort and well-being of the
men ; for he (Mr. S. Herbert) did not believe that the sol-
dier was at any time so well off as he'svas now. Whether it
was that the short service was beginning to tell, or whether
it was owing to the increased comforts which now ob-
tained among the troops, this much was certain, that the
recruiting, both for the militia and the army, had never
been more easy than now, nor had it ever before produced
a better class of recruits drawn from a better poptaation.
(Cheers.) What had been the steps taken for the ad-
vantage of the soldier ? The stoppage of rations abroad
had been lowered. That stoppage had been at first pitched
too high—a lower rate of stoppage had been substituted,
which was now universal throughout our colonies ; and he
believed it halgiven general satisfaction the men, without
occasioning any loss to the service. The good conduct
money, too, had been increased to 65,3001. a-year • and li-
braries had been established to a great extent. They had
/50 barrack libraries, containing in the aggregate 117,000
volumes ; the men paid for admission to those libraries,
and at present there were 16,000 subscribers. By a late
arrangement the officers had been permitted to subscribe,
and to have the use of those libraries ; but as it was feared
that their presence there might operate as a restriction •on
the men, that arrangement had been modified, so as to give
the latter a perfectly free access to their libraries. Then
there were the regimental schools, which were established
n 1846 ; and there he must say that he owed a great debt of
gratitude to his noble friend Lord Panmure, for the manner
in which he carried out those institutions. They originated
with himself (Mr. S. Herbert) just before he left office, and
they met with a good deal of prejudice at first ; but all
those difficulties had been removed, and so far from those
schools being objected to by the men, there was a great de-
sire shown by them to be put under the management of
schoolmasters properly, trained. There were now a, large
number of those schoolmasters who had passed their period
of probation, in addition to 58 masters who were now em-
ployed in the schools of the different regiments, and 16
assistant-masters. The recruits were required by a regu-
lation to attend the schools ; that was the only compulsory
attendance there was ; but it only lasted so long as their
drill continued, and it was found that many of the men
afterwards returned to the schools of their own accord.
He had the greatest confidence in those schools working
well. They had already contributed, among many other
circumstances, to that increased good conduct which was
now remarkable throughout all ranks of the army. (Hear,
hear.) He would just give, as another proof of the increas-
ing comfort and well-being of the men, an extract from
the returns, showing the amount of deposits in their sav-
ings' banks. The savings banks were established in 1844.
There were then 819 depositors, whose deposits amounted
.11,894. In 1852 there were 9,447 depositors, and the de-
posits had reached to 111,9251. Again, he knew some
years ago the facilities given for the acquisition of know-
ledge were thought by some as likely to lead to a re-
laxation of discipline. There had been a great di-
minution of punishinent in the army simultaneonsly with
the introduction of the new system. The number of cor-
poral punishments in 1838 was 875 ; in 1843, 620; in 1846,
461; in 1849, 311; in 1850, 247—(hear, hear, hear) ;
and in 1851, 206. The return for 1852 was not yet
complete; but for three-quarters of the whole force 96 was
shown to have been the number of corporal punishments in
the last year. Nor did he find that this change was
owing to any relaxing of the discipline among the men.
There had been an increase of imprisonments ; but the
question was, had there been an increase of offences, and was
there= increase in the persons tried before courts-martial ?
The returns of military imprisonments, comparing ] 850 with
1851, showed the contrary ; it was true there was a slight
increase in the number of those imprisonments in 1852, as
compared with the preceding year, but that increase was
not greater in proportion than the increase in the effective
strength of the army last year. Then, again, they must
recollect that their object in imprisoning the soldier was
altogether different from that of punishing the civilian.
There was but one other point with respect to the well-
being of the army in general to which he would call the at-
tention of the committee. That was the health of thearmy.
He believed at no former period was the army so healthy
as it was at present. Some years ago there was great mor-
tality among the troops, especially in the colonies, from the
situation of their barracks in many places. Lord Howick
was at considerable pains to remedy that grievance, and was
to some extent suscesaful. Taking Gibralter and the lonian
Islands, the mortality for the last year had been 12 7-10ths
in a thousand, whilst the average there since 1846 had been
19 1-10th in a thousand. In the American colonies—always
favourable to health—the mortality of the last year had been
14 in a thousand; whilst the average of the preceding pe-
riod had been 15 in a thousand. Fourteen in a thousand
was as high a state of health as was enjoyed in Great
Britain. St. Helena, New South Wales, and Van
Diemen's Land were all very healthy colonies. The
average rate of mortality at the Cape of Good Hope
had been of course affected to some extent by the
Kafir war. In New Zealand the average was 12 in a
thousand ; and in Van Diemen's Land 9 in a thousand.
The mortality in the West Indies (exclusive of Jamaica),
up to March last was twenty-two in a thousand; and in
Jamaica, owing to the prevalence of the yellow fever, it
was exactly double that rate. He did not believe, how-
ever, that there had been any instance where the yellow
fever had broken out among the troops before, in which
the mortality had been so small as on the late occasion.
At the Mauritius, the mortality was 22 in 1,000 against 43
in preceding years. At Hong Kong, which was one of the
most unhealthy of the stations, the mortality in the pre-
vious year, 74 in 1,000, had diminished in the past year,
to 44 in 1,000. The results for the past year, indeed,
showed a general improvement in every case. The accounts
from India, which he had received but that day, bore out
fully the statement of the hon. baronet the member for
Honiton, that the troops at Rangoon were not suffering in
health, and he found that the mortality had been under
four per cent. Throughout India, generally, there never
was a time when the troops were in a more healthy condi-
tion. (Hear.) He believed that this had been the result,
in a great degree, of the improvements made in the medi-
cal treatment and a great deal was undoubtedly due to the
improved habits of the men, and the diminution—still
leaving, however, some room for improvemegt—of the
habits of excessive drinking, by which the constitutions of
the men were undermined and their health destroyed.
(Hear, hear, hear.) Having thus recapitulated the differ-
ent measures adopted in late years by the Government for
!the purpose of imprOving the condition of the soldiey, it
was now necessary that they should pay increased atten-
4ion, to the task of making the army as efficient as possible
for service in the field. (Hear, hear.) No doubt they
had been too remiss in this respect, because they had
chosen to use the army, to a degree far too great to be com-
patible with its efficiency, as a police force. The army had
been scattered in minute detachments throughout the
world. In Ireland alone there wero as many as 200 stations oc-
cupied by about 20,000 troops. In England and colonies the
same thing to a great extent occurred. It was not reason-
able to expect that troops could be fit for field duty when•
they scarcely ever had the opportunity of seeing even two
regiments assembled together. (Hear, hear.) Her Ma-
jesty's Government entertained a sanguine hope that they
would be able gradually to concentrate more troops in this
country, by withdrawing a portion of the army from those
colonies which had now obtained the right of self-govern-
ment, and, with that privilege, the duty of contributing
something to their own defence, so far as domestic enemies
were concerned. *Hear.) It was essentially necessary
that they should make arrangements for concentrating
more troops in this country. There was a great difference
in this respect between the army and navy. In war or
peace the navy led exactly the same sort of life. There
was no necessity for any additional preparation in the
navy, in the event of war. The navy carried its Own bar-
racks and appointments, and, with the exception of firing
shotted guns at the enemy instead of the target, there was
no difference in the duties of a man-of-war between war
and peace. The army, unlike the navy, was broken up in
into small detachments, posted in barracks, and had not
the opportunity of exercising large bodies of men. These
were defects which ought to be corrected. (Hear, hear.)
It was proposed, therefore, in the present estimate to take
a sum—which by inadvertence had been mis-stated—of
1,000/. for the establishment of stations where there could
be ball practice with the Minis rifles, to which non-com-
in officers and men in certain proportions could be
drafted from the several regiments, in order to acquire the
habit of using these rifles at different sights and distances,
having obtained which, they would go to their regiments,
and there impart the instruction which they had acquired,
so that there might be throughout the army one uni-
form system of target firing. (Hear, hear.) It was also
proposed to form encampments in some parts of the
country, to which the regiments could repair for the pur-
pose of instruction. (Hear, hear.) He anticipated good
results from these measures, and believed that they
were arrangements calculated to give very general satis-
faction, and could be carried out at a very small expense.
In point of fact, the movements of the men to and from
the camp would be no more than the natural movement of
at no additional expense
except the of quarters
rrteanrs tearevderY year,
of the tents and the increased
allowance to officers and men when in camp. With respect

effective service of the army.
Mr. HUME thanked the right honourable the Secretary-
at-War for the very clear and able statement which he had
made. (Hear, hear.) Anxious as he (Mr. Hume) had
always been to keep down the expenses, no person had

been more anxious than himself to see the character of the
troops improved, and their moral and social comforts in-
creased. He believed that no department of the public
service was under better management than the army at
the present moment. (Hear, hear.) He deprecated, how-
ever, any increase in the present establishment, and fully
concurred in the opinion 'expressed by Lord Aberdeen, in
1842, with respect to the large military establishments of
Europe, and the fallacy of the opinion that the best secu-
rity for peace was always to be prepared for war. Tho
abstraction of so large a number of persons from the pro-
ductive industry of this country was now beginning to be
a matter of serious import, and to no class was it of greater
moment than to the landed interest. Few persons ap-
peared to be aware of the actual state of our establish-
ments and the number of men taken away from the in-
dustry of the country. We had now in the regular army
155,000 men, pensioners, dockyard battalions, and yeo-
manry, 42,000 coast guard, Irish constabulary and police
in England 31,000, and the militia, enrolled last year,
65,000, making a total of 293,000 in arms, or ready to take
arms, drawn away from the productive industry of the coun-
try. The Government had the power of adding in the pre-
sent year 23,000 more, to make up 80,000 in the militia, and
further power to increase this army of reserve to 120,000,
when they would have altogether not less than 358,000 men
in arms. All these were drawn away from the industry of
the country, and the expenses of their support saddled upon
the rest of the community. With respect to the pay of
both officers and men in the army, he did not think that
they were paid too much, but considered that the expenses
of the staff might be considerably reduced. A considerable
saving might also be effected by the union in one depart-
ment of the army and ordnance. It was calculated that
there were in Europe at the present moment 7,000,000 of
men capable of bearinc, arms, and that of these 4,000,000,
or more than one half,' were in arms, and paid by the rest.
Let the house think of the double evil that such a system
created—the abstraction of such a number of able-bodied
men on the one side, and the abstraction of the fruits of
the labour of others to maintain them on the other.
(Hear.) He would not, however, oppose the proposition,
but he would enter his protest against keeping up these
large establishments. He admitted the good government of
the army ; he believed that its administration was as well
conducted as it was possible for an army to be ; and he
could assure the right hon. gentleman that he folly appre-
ciated the importance of the improvements he proposed,
and he would suggest to him the necessity of still further
carrying out those arrangements for the reduction of the
half:pay list which Lord Hardinge commenced when he
was Secretary-at-War.
Colonel SIBTHORP said the hon. member talked of the
army [interfering with the industry of the country. He
could tell the hon. member what interfered with the in-
dustry of the country. ; it was the infernal free-trade sys-
tem. (Laughter.) Be was for encouraging native indus-
try ; he would not be like the free-traders, and prefer the
foreigner to his own countrymen. If the honourable
member for Montrose would talk of not interfering with
native industry, he would say to him— keep out the
foreigner—keep out the free-trade system. He (Colonel
Sibthorp) would go so far as to say that he would
expel every member out of the house that was in
favour of free trade. (Roars of laughter.) Look at the
mischief done by the Crystal Palace. (Renewed laughter.)
He could not go into the city of London without
being told—as he was told the other day by a tradesman,
in the neighbourhood of the Royal Exchange—" We can't
do anything, sir. Why ? Because the foreigner steps in
and undersells us—cheap, but nasty." (Laughter, and
oh, oh.) He had offered, and he would continue to offer,
double, or even ten times, to an English tradesman for an
article which he produced, because he believed he was
honest.—not like your foreigners, who would cheat every-
body, down to the people who were unfortunate enough to
lot them lodgings. (Oh, oh, order, and question.) Then
he had heard of the Peace Society. The members of the
Peace Society would be the first, if there was any danger,
to call out for the military, whom they abused, to save
their mills, while they themselves would be found either
down in the cellar, or below the bed. (Laughter.) The
Peace Society were, in his opinion, both directly or indi-
rectly, the great encouragers of war ; they carried fire and
fagot with them wherever they went ; and, for himself, he
would rather see the devil in his house than one of/them.
(Roars of laughter.) He thanked the right hon. gentleman
for the able manner in which he had brought forward these
estimates ; and though he differed from right hon. gentle-
men opposite, yet they would always find in him not an
opponent, but a regular supporter on all questions that
would contribute to the security, the welfare, and the dig-
nity of the country.
Tho vote was then agreed to.
On the question that 3,625,7831. be voted for the land
forces,
Mr. HUME called attention to the vote for recruiting.
It appeared that 80,0001. was spent on that branch of the
service. It had been suggested, in the committee upstairs,
that a saving might be effected by committing that service
t o the pensioners ; and Lord Panmure promised to consider
the subject. He wanted now to ask what steps had been
taken in consequence ?
Mr. S. HERBERT said Lord Panmure instituted an in-
quiry into the subject in several quarters, and the result of
the whole induced him to decline the alteration. The evi-
dence he (Mr. Herbert) had seen induced him to concur in
Lord Panmure's decision, as it seemed to be clear that the
recruiting could not be effectually carried out in the way
proposed.
Vote agreed to.
On the question that 162,8971. be voted for the staff and
hospital departments,
Sir DE LACY EVANS called attention to the propriety
of instituting a professorship of military surgery in one of
the colleges in London, and also in Dublin, of the same
nature with that instituted in the college at Edinburgh,
where Sir George Ballingale had instituted a course of
lectures that were admitted on all hands to be eminently,
beneficial. He also suggested that the museum of prepara-
tions of military
nt
atiu Fortthir ePitt,prese
position
Chatham,
should be
they were all but unavailable to military students.
Mr. HERBERT said he had instituted inquiries as to
removed to diseases
London, now*
as
the cost of establishing the professorships referred to by
the honourable and gallant officer ; and till these measures
at Chatham, it would
but
advantage to remove it to London,
were completed, he could not undertake to give au answer.
With respect to the museum
cer-
tainly be of great
of them filled.
_ one of
In answer to a question from Mr
it was difficult to obtain a site for it any of the public
offices, which were already every
continued, as it was the opinion of
military men that it was better for
can-
teen system was still
solders to get drink
the
Mr. HERBERT said (as we understood), that the
ks from Mr. HUME, urging
After some remarks within the barracks than to be seen drunk about the streets.
(Laughter.) the cense-
The vote was agreed to.
On the vote of 98,464/• for public departments,
soldiers were not
iidation of the ordnance with the military department,
Mr. HUME wished to know why the
withdrawn from
ob-
tained self-government ? entered
Mr. HERBERT said
that by an arrangement
Australia, now that the colony had
11 the maintenance of the
troops
the colonies were to pay a
ception of the cost of
stationed there, with the single ex
into with the Australian colonies by. the late nment,
their arms.
The vote was then agreed to.
A sum of 16,8881. 'tory Asylum, were
sum of 18, • 020/ for the Royal Mill
agreed to.
On the vote of 88,000/. for volunteer corps,
men of rank
for the Royal Military College, and a
to be allowed to
should pay the Government
the appearance they would
Mr. HUME ventured to say
enter this corps, for the sake of
o and jackets.
that
something oung
make at balls and reviews in their fine c
for regular troops. t Government would
Sir D. L. EVANS hoped the presen
volunteer
nt to the establishment of v
He expressed his disapproval of the vote, and a preference
give some encouragement
corps throughout the country.
Lord PALMERSTON said it was
ould. They
thing at a time, and to do that as well
force
as theyat p cresent
were engaged in organising a mill
r to postpone any steps for
a good plan to do one
he thought it would be better
on the peop
country volunteering whenever le of this
ganged.ganged. He placed every reliance
their se *ces were re-
h however voluntary,
, owe
the formation of volunteer corps until the militia was or-
quired, but those volunteer corp s
would be attended with some expen e.
as possible.
wanted the country defended at asexpensethat the militia was
The noble lord seemed not to be aware
hich was taken from
costing the country 100,0001. a Y 9
obliged them to continue the
Mr. HUME did not agree with.allise noble lord. They
the industrious classes, and ob
Why would not the
soap and other objectionable taxes.olunteers ? He thought
noble lord try if he could get those
If Surrey and Middlesex re-
the taxation of the county.
1 t th people of those
of riflemen, e e
•
quired a certain number
choose their own officers. They
counties turn out and c
every man bound to contribute two the defence as well as to
and one which, in his
case of need to defend their country,
the paltry, miserable
better than
opinion, would be much
would then create a corps with hearts and hands ready in
corps at an expense of 88,000/.
of State for the Home De-
onl st that in Kent and Sussex
partment, so late as December a d
for the militia. He
Admiral Sir G. PECHELL understood from a return
the table by the late Secretary
laid.
not one-half the quota nad been raise
lord would,information of
re-
turn. He hoped the noble give„
the actual state of the militia at the present moment. lAt.
thought it very desirable they should have an amended
litia than they were of the French. (A laugh.)
Lord PALMERSTON said the state of the militia now
Brighton, he knew the people were more afraid of the mi-
litia
was very different to what it was in December.
q
Sir G. PECHELL asked for the number of men raised
and the various uota.
Lord PALMERSTON said the numbers were not yet ,

Mr. LINDSAY asked if the office of Warden of the
Tower was to be abolished ?
Mr. S. HERBERT said all existing offices which were
sinecures would be abolished.
A sum of 55,0001. for the army pay of general officers ;
A sum of 50,0001. for the full pay for retired officers ;
A sum of 358,0001. for half-pay and military allowances ;
A sum of 34,6281. for foreign half-pay ;
A sum of 117,6371. for widows' pensions ;
And a sum of 79,5001. for compassionate allowances—
were all agreed to.
On the vote of 28,1491. for Chelsea and Kilmainham
Hospitals,
Mr. HUME observed that the abolition of Kilmainham
Hospital was recommended by the committee appointed
some years ago.
Mr. S. HERBERT said the recommendation was being
gradually carried out, as no new appointments were made.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND and Colonel SIBTHORP dis-
sented from the suggestion of the committee, and hoped
the hospital would be kept up for the poor Irish soldiers.
Mr. HUME said the recommendation of the committee
was in accordance with the wishes of Irish members. If
they allowed to the Irish soldiers in their own homes the
same amount expended in Kilmainham Hospital, they
would be much better off. He did not object to the vote
for the purpose of saving the tnoney.
The vote was then agreed to, as were two other votes,
one of 1,235,8001. for out-pensioners, and the other of
36,0001. for superannuation allowances.
This was the last of the army estimates.
The house they resumed, and the Chairman reported
progress; and asked leave to sit again on Monday. '
METROPOLITAN IMPROVEMENTS (REPAYMENT
OUT OF CONSOLIDATED FUND) BILL.
On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. BLACKETT hoped that some explanation would be
given of the nature of this measure, which had been said
to be a bill for paying off charges on the Crown lands, by
payments out of the London-bridge Approaches Fund. He
must say, that he could not find any explanation of its
nature and objects in the bill itself, and half-a-dozen
learned members of the house, to whom he had shown it,
had said that it was neither Queen's nor lawyer's English.
(Laughter.) The 12th clause was simple nonsense. But it
appeared that the measure was likely to affect the coal in-
terest ; and he thought, therefore, that the second reading
ought to bo postponed until the coal-trade committee of
Newcastle and the north of England should have had an
opportunity of expressing their opinions upon it. (Hear.)
Sir W. MOLES WORTH hoped that his hon. friend
would not oppose the second reading of the bill. Not a
single farthing of the expense would be charged by it upon
the coal fund.
Lord SEYMOUR thought that the bill was a very desir-
able one. It did not in the least degree affect the coal fund.
Mr. PHILLIMORE said that the bill was simply unin-
telligible, and he hoped that the Government would not
press it to a second reading for the present.
Mr. INGHAM said there existed some misapprehensions
in the North of England on the subject of the bill,
which he hoped might be removed on its passage through
committee.
Mr. J. WILSON would briefly state what the object of
the bill was. Some years ago a commission had been ap-
pointed for the purpose of executing certain improvements
in the metropolis. Large sums of money had to be bor-
rowed, and the commissioners had applied to the Bank of
England for a loan. The Bank had been unwilling to lend
money on the security of the commissioners, and it had
been proposed to give the Bank the security of the land
- revenues. Interest had been paid for many years out of
the proceeds of the land revenues, but subsequently it had
been found that this was a very onerous and expensive way
o.h)diebhe
wereat present of raising money. The object of the present bill was to
enable the land revenues to be discharged from the obliga-
tion which they now laboured under, and that the
paid out oftheyiebladli
an n o i n-
ng
c en
now
instu r
et hss
te.bExchequer,rrrHowe
ared, shaulwrhe
Mr. DISRAELI said that considering the great talents of
the present Government, he had to express his regret that
this bill had been brought forward in a manner so unsatis-
factory. It appeared to be the intention of the bill to ter-
minate what • had originally been a very improvident
arrangement, by a method which, however desirable it
might be in a merely financial respect, would yet result in
diminishing the balances in the Exchequer. He should
like to know to what amount the balances in the Exche-
quer would be diminished by this arrangement. It was
of great importance that the amount of those balances
should be sustained. That was a consideration which the
house ought to entertain, and they must not consider that
they were terminating a pressure while they were imposing
a charge of a far more injurious character. It certainly
appeared to him that this bill had been drawn up in a very
obscure manner, and that it was founded on a principle
which the house ought to look at with very great suspi-
cion. They ought at least to know to what extent the ba-
lances in the Exchequer would be affected. (Hear.)
Mr. WILSON said that the amount for which the ba-
lances of the Exchequer would now in the first place be
charged would be 960,0001., which, with interest, would
amount to more than 1,000,0001., and the present state of
the Exchequer rendered the charge rather convenient than
otherwise. In the present year there was an income from
the coal fund which was applicable to these purposes, of
80,0001., and all duties arising from that source in future
years would be applied to the payment of what was now
taken from the Exchequer.
Mr. PHINN said that this bill was discreditable to the
house. If any question should arise upon it, there was no
lawyer who could tell what the decision would be.
Mr. DISRAELI begged to repeat the question which he
had already put. The house had a right to know what was
the amount of the balances in the Exchequer, to what
amount they would be reduced by this measure, and in
what period the sum taken away from the Exchequer
would be repaid
Mr. WIL' 4d that the balances in the Exchequer
were about' v,eut, JO sterling, which would be reduced by
1,000,000/., or thereabouts, by this measure. This sum
would be repaid by the accruing duties on coals, which
amounted in the present year to 80,000/.
Mr. HENLEY suite agreed with the hon. and learned
gentleman (Mr. Phinn), who said that this bill was so
drawn that it was impossible for anybody to understand
what it provided or what it meant.
Mr. WILSON quite admitted that this bill was un-
usually difficult to understand, but he believed this arose
not so much from the drawing of the bill as from the ex-
traordinary complication of the arrangement itself, which
was discreditable to the management from the beginning
to the end. Under the acts of Parliament on the subject,
the coal tax was charged to the Government not only for
the principal sum of the expe.nditure for metropolitan im-
provements, but also for tho interest at tho rate of 5 per
cent.; and ho believed that there was now due to the Go-
vernment under the act a sum of about 900,0001. as princi-
pal, and 130,000/. more for interest.
Mr. WALPOLE thought it would be remembered that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer (who was now in his place)
when ho introduced the bill, explained that its details
wore complicated and difficult to understand ; and, there-
fore,m he (Mr. Walpole) would suggest to the hon. gentle-
an who now had the charge of the measure, that it would
be better to postpone the second reading till Monday, in
order that the house might receive an explanation respect-
ing the bill, for really nobody who read it could understand
it as it stood. •
Sir ROBERT FERGUSON hoped that an explanation
would be given of the security that was given for this
money, as the bill referred to other acts, and the matter
was unintelligible to everybody.
Mr. WILSON said that the details of the bill would be
Sir W. JOLLIFFE thought the ought to be post-
poned, and that an inquiry, should be instituted into the
explained when it was in committee.
bill
nature of the coal tax. He understood that the security at
of
present rested upon the coal tax and the land revenues
the Crown conjointly, and that the moment this bill passed
1 tax alone.
the whole liability would be borne by the coa
of the bill
till the matter could be better explained.
The question was then put and the house divided. The
Mr. ALCOCK also urged the postponement
numbers were— -
For the second reading ..................
Against it

102
55
-47

Majority
The bill was then read a second time.
OATHS IN CHANCERY BILL.
The bill was read a second time.

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 26,
_1 8 5 3.

GENERAL BOARD OF HEALTH BILL.
This bill, as amended, was considered and agreed to.
COUNTY RATES AND EXPENDITURE BILL.

Mr. M. GIBSON moved that this bill be committed pro
forma, in order that the amendments might be printed,
agreeably to the arrangement that was assented to by the
Government on Wednesday.
The bill then went through committee, pro forma, and
the amendments were ordered to be printed.
Mr. M. GlBSON.moved that the bill should be ordered
to be recommitted on Wednesday, the 16th of March.
Mr. HENLEY suggested a longer date for the re-com-
mittal, as the bill had to be sent into the country.
Mr. IL PALMER asked for an explanation of the altera-
tions. . .

Mr. M. GIBSON said that the bill would be put into
precisely the same shape as the bill which came out of the
select committee of 1851, with the exception of the single
provision as to the mode of electing the financial boards.
With regard to the recommittal of the bill, he hoped the
right honourable member for Oxfordshire would take into
consideration the great difficulty a private member ex-
perienced in passing a measure, and not press for a further
postponement than the day he (Mr. Gibson) had already
named. _ _

~The bill was then ordered to be recommitted on the 16th
of March.

INLAND REVENUE OFFICE BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION.—MAN-
CHESTER AND SALFORD, &c.

Mr. M. GIBSON moved that the following members be
elected to serve on the above committee : viz., Mr. Milner
Gibson, Mr. Peto, Mr. Bright, Lord John Russell, Mr.
Pellitt,-Sir George Grey, Mr. Ker Seymer, Mr. Christopher,
Mr. Miles, Mr. Bowyer, the Marquis of Blandford, Mr.
Macaulay, Mr. Cobden, Mr. William Fox, and Mr. Brother-
ton.—Agreed to.