The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-05 00:00:00

. . .
•
•
--, -
ks,
..„
,•
....--.
, ... # .
, ..,„:„.., • .. ~..
, .....„.
. . a , ,---- • ~,,,,,,,,.
ef.........,-
.. .
_ ._ _ ~,•.. -,-;,,,-,„ ~,,,. -..2.p. ,
• .Kft->:.,,..„..4.4\ze..1U;•yi,\:!.,017-,. ..
4;
• ,
. ,
,
,(41141..L'
~.:,,,0.,8,,
.411 .).1116,,,N11170,4
.4,..
, 0 ... .- - - - ..• . in France Lobe preseqt at the prerenta , AI
---- . ,-.? - - ::----- '.- '-
: cr---:-9,,,--t:4-* ----k. " ft7L';'';7i'l'''.. ~,,)-' .1. : .it was not intended to give such an in ction,
/ -,- f \ -:':----71':'", - "
/ SS . NAt_r
11 W.; it
'S' ' :, ~_ , ,
1 '.::, ‘lj
'-
° --Is7' 4-b..4 A. Vii. IA
\ , 44 P,..
(re,":...,,,,,‘''''''•!"=,- '
ttii
..„7,,t... • -
1 ~.k: • \!, 4; + , 447 454 .. .
, ,
I' ~ .1. .0 , ~.,, ' ai-c -?-- . ' „-e.,-..,- -%,..,..1!,_
Mt.
\"' - . : .
, - ,.„ ,.„ . to i °•Zt , 3.. TZ Nl,l , . ',
+
. 1 41:44...1,' . - .. ' / ' ---. ." -
...V...",' '4l b; ' 1)113- ' ' .1
5, I ' ~,, , Jl4 ~ - , ",et D liistOilk-'"‘
IEA

plied.
and acco, Ley the ambassador was not present. As far
as he (L 21., Clarendon) had heard, that declaration of
opinion had produced a good impression in France. If he
had been asked whether he thought that such a declaration.
should have been carried further, he should have saidno.
It simplyreferred to the good understanding—the cordial
understanding—between the two countries, about which
there could be no doubt, and as he believed there was no
doubt on the part of the French people as to the feelings
of the English nation towards them, such an allusion was
correct. He concurred in thinking it inexpedient that
this declaration should be considered a national declara-
tion, but could not recognise the parallel of his noble
andlearned friend between the present deputation and
that which proceeded to Franch in 1848. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH thought that this
was a matter of considerable importance. He quite
agreed with all that had fallen from the noble and
learned lord except the complimentary terms in which
he had spoken of these individuals. For himself, he
looked upon the transaction with no feelings but those
of disgust ; and as they had from the very highest autho-
rity that these persons had been guilty of a grave
offence, he hoped that if they came before the noble and
learned lord in his judicial capacity, his sentence would
be divested of all complimentary terms.
The Earl of MALMESBURY said, he could not
allow the present conversation to close without offering
one remark on what had fallen from the noble and learned
lord. The noble and learned lord, although he professed
not to consider these gentlemen as actuated by any but
the most patriotic motives, had yet hinted at others.
_ Lord CAMPBELL—I said such might be the case if

[PRICE SD.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY.)

THE CITY ADDRESS TO THE EMPEROR
NAPOLEON.
Lord CAMPBELL then rose to put a question to the
noble lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, of
which he had given him notice, and which had reference
to a subject of great national importance. He alluded
to the declaration or address which the newspapers stated
had recently been presented to his Imperial Majesty
Napoleon 111., in the name of the English nation."
Now, in putting his question, he had no intention to
throw blame on the individuals who had presented this
address. He had the pleasure of knowing some of them,
and he believed them all to be highly respectable, and
actuated, no doubt, by patriotic and disinterested mo-
tives. But if, in presenting the address to which he re-
ferred, they had acted without the authority of the Home
Government, he apprehended they had been guilty of an
offence against the law of the land—at all events of an
offence against the law of nations. It is an established
rule, he believed, that the intercourse which took place
between independent nations could only be transacted
through the medium of ambassadors or ministers sent
from the respective courts of those nations—such a rule
having been established in order to the preservation of
international tranquillity. The rule would be found laid
down by all writers on this important subject, but he
would only trouble their lordships with an extract from
Vattel, who was supported by Puffendorff and all his
illustrious predecessors. Vattel remarked :

this proceeding were made a precedent':
The Earl of MALMESBURY (in continuation) had
of course intended to refer to the remarks of the noble
and learned lord with respect to the funds. It was im-
possible to misunderstand the meaning of such observa-
tions. (Hear, hear.)
Ihfethdias
Lord CAMPBELL said he had acquitted the deputa-
tiont of all improper motives, and had simply pointed out
nagffeariorf
wm:rkeinpgastsheed perveseernitntrsaunesanectei,onetahnerexadempuptlae:
naceentdwtedleitathrnhaoett
eMan e
BAt bLr
uoMr
yui MALMESBURY
non-official
oYn ( (in continuation)Herchannel,
nean re. wasa) Hnde
lordobedc
addressi objects.
notshould
in-
tendgh
to throw out any insinuation against those who had
thelearned
eother
doubted its necessity ; but, as it had been presented, he
was glad to be able to bear personal testimony to the
signedhoahTve hee Earl Ept the declaration
proceeded
emo
effect it had produced in France. He was accidentally
in Paris when the address was presented, and persons
had expressed to him the great pleasure which such a de-
claration of opinion had produced. There was not the
most distant idea in France of such an address being
considered derogatory by the English people. Some
persons might think so in this country, but, in justice to
the Emperor and his ministers, he must say, that on
their parts, there was not the most remote sign of such
a feeling. They felt gratification at what they considered
to be a sign that the population of this country, and
especially of this great city, were anxious to continue
our peaceful relations with France. Ido not (continued
the noble earl) defend the act ; but I say, as it has been
committed—and in these days people are not to be
ruled arbitrarily, and will act for themselves and speak
for themselves- —I can hardly congratulate the house
upon the noble and learned lord having brought the
subject forward, because no harm, but rather good, has
resulted from it, and I do not see that any harm or dan-
ger could have resulted from this rash, though success.
ful, proceeding. (Hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH presumed then that
the noble earl would have sanctioned the proceedings
had he remained in office ?

" Nations are to treat and hold intercourse with one an-
other, and, bound by reciprocal obligation, to consent to
such communication. But nations and sovereigns do not
treat together immediately. The only expedient for nations
and sovereigns is to communicate and treat with each other
by the agency of procurators or mandatories, of delegates
charged with their commands, and vested with their powers
—that is to say, public ministers. The minister is, in some
sort, a representative of a foreign power, a person charged
with the commands of that power, and delegated to manage
its affairs."

Without quoting the opinions of other jurists on the
subject, he would simply refer to what took place in
1791, when it was stated that a deputation was sent
from this country to the Empress of Russia. At that
period one party in this country thought we were ag-
grieved by the proceedings of the Russian Government,
while another were of opinion that the English Govern-
ment were to blame. The party in favour of Russia sent
a deputation to St. Petersburgh in the person of Mr.
Adair. Upon this proceeding Mr. Burke passed the
following severe comment :
" This proceeding of Mr. Fox does not (as I conceive)
amount to absolute high treason ; Russia, though on bad
terms, not having been then declaredly at war with this
kingdom. But such a proceeding is, in law, not very re-
mote from that offence, and is undoubtedly a most uncon-
stitutional act, and a high treasonable misdemeanour. The
legitimate and sure mode of communication between this
nation and foreign powers is rendered uncertain, precari-
ous, and treacherous, by being divided into two channels,
by which means the foreign powers can never be assured of
the real authority or validity of any public transaction.
This proceeding has given a strong countenance, and an en-
couraging example to the doctrines and practices of the
Revolution and Constitutional Societies, and of other mis-
chievous societies of that description, who, without any
legal authority, are in the habit of proposing, and to the
best of their power of forming, leagues and alliances with
France."

The Earl of MALMESBURY—On the contrary.
particularly said that if I had been in the place of th
noble earl opposite (Clarendon), I should have given the
same advice which the noble earl gave, and have care-
fully refrained from approving the proceeding. (Hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH apologised, as not
having heard the observation.

Now he (Lord Campbell) apprehended that the principles
. thus laid down by Burke were inconsistent with the
transaction now under discussion. He apprehended
that unless this deputation to the Emperor of France
were authorised by the British Government to proceed
in that capacity, they had acted iu violation of the law,
although unconsciously so, As to the declaration itself,
it was perfectly harmless. In many of the sentiments
contained ins it he concurred. But inasmuch as such
declaration was not the result of any public meeting of
her Majesty's subjects, or in conformity with any ad-
dress agreed to at a public meeting, he could not recog-
nise its legality. The document in question contained
nothing more than a simple declaration of a desire that
the relations of amity and peace between the two na-
tions should be kept up. In his opinion at no former
period had there been a greater desire on the part of all
classes in this country to maintain those relations of
peace and amity with France. (` Hear, hear," from the
Earl of Malmesbury.) Such was not the case in 1791,
when the then Government took up one line of policy
and the opposition another. (Hear, hear.) To, revert,
however, to the declaration under discussion, he be-
lieved it to be a clear violation of the law. This country
knew nothing of the document until the curtain was
withdrawn, 'and Napoleon the Third was discovered,
surrounded by his ministers and approached by the
English deputation. He (Lord Campbell) did not
know whether the English ambassador was pre-
sent on the occasion, or whether his sanction was
asked to the transaction. Was he (Lord Campbell)
to suppose that Sir James Duke was sent over to super-
sede Lord Cowley, and that he went over to France
invested with the authority of an ambassador extraordi-
nary or a minister plenipotentiary ? The form of lan-
guage employed by Sir James Duke to the Emperor
would have been all very well had the subject in hand
been the cession of a railway or a canal ; but such lan-
guage on a subject relating to our internal relations
ought only to have proceeded from the lips of an accre-
dited minister of the Crown. Sir James Duke said
" Sire,—We have the honour to appear before your Ma-
jesty for the purpose of presenting to your Majesty and to
the French nation a declaration from the commercial com-
munity of the metropolis of the British empire.
" We have only to add the expression of our conviction
that this document conveys at the same time a faithful re-
presentation of the feelings of the people of England at
large."

The LORD CHANCELLOR said he hoped that his
noble and learned friend the Lord Chief Justice did not
mean it to go forth upon his high authority that such a
proceeding was necessarily illegal. (Hear.) The prece-
dent might possibly lead to consequences it would be
difficult to deal with, and perhaps to illegal consequences;
but it would be extremely dangerous to lay it down as a
principle that every such proceeding was necessary ille-
gal. (Hear.) It had been the most common thing in
the world that addresses should be presented to foreign
Sovereigns—perhaps merely as matters of courtesy ; but
still all such addresses would be illegal if the noble and
learned lord was correct. He could not but recollect
that when he was in the south of France last autumn,
he saw several members of their lordships' and oftthe
other house of Parliament npon a deputation to
the Grand Duke of Tuscany, to induce him to
interfere in respect to certain of his subjects. It might
be that this was illegal ; but, although agreeing with
his nhble and learned that these proceedings were much
to be deprecated, and were calculated to lead to great
Idifficulties, he hoped that it would not be understood
that they were necessarily illegal, or subjecting the
parties to a criminal prosecution.
Lord CAMPBELL said he did not mean that such
proceedings were illegal in that sense, so that the parties
could be indicted and arraigned. He did not say that
this could be the case unless there were some malus
animus. But he maintained that such proceedings were
illegal in this sense, that the law did not sanction them,
and that a member. of Parliament might be impeached
for such conduct. The deputation to the Grand Duke
of Tuscany was to influence him to releare persons im-
prisoned for religious opinions, and no doubt that was
not illegal, for it was not really international. But
that which related to peace and war between the two
countries was national, and any English subject inter-
fering on such a subject, and pretending to represent
the British nation to any foreign power, did what was
undoubtedly illegal.
VACCINATION EXTENSION BILL.

- - - ---
Lord LYTTLETON moved the second reading of
Le bill.

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH observed that the
bill imposed penalties upon neglect to vaccinate, but
extended no new facilities.
Lord LYTTLETON was not aware that any were
wanted ; if they were he would be happy to introduce
them.
The bill was read a second time.
ELECTION INQUIRIES.
The Earl of ABERDEEN said, that on Monday,
upon the evidence of the Canterbury election com-
mittee, he should move that an address to the Crown be
presented.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

They express a fervent—
" Hope that under your reign France and England may
be always united," &c.
Of this declaration the Emperor, in his reply said :
"It confirms in me the confidence with which the good
sense of the English has always inspired me."
He then expresses some alarm as to what was done last
year, adding :
" But the good sense of a great people cannot be long
deceived, and the step which you now take is a striking,
proof of this.

" Like you I desire peace ; and, to make it sure, I wish,
like you, to draw closer the bonds which unite our two
countries."
These (continued the noble and learned lord) were most
gratifying sentiments, .but, nevertheless, wholly irregu-
lar, if uttered without the authority of the home govern-
ment. He was not disposed to blame the parties, who,
no doubt, were ignorant that they were acting wrongly.
But consider the danger to which the country might be
exposed by allowing this proceeding to become a prece-
dent. Suppose for instance, there were a party in this
country who, disapproving of the policy of the French
government, agreed to a declaration, and presented an
address, praying that such policy should be changed.
Suppose, instead of the person addressed being Napoleon
111., it was a red republican government. There might,
according to the example now set, be a deputation of
Socialists, Chartists, or United Irishmen, to such a go-
vernment, asking for fraternisation. His noble friend (Lord
Clarendon) had once presided over the sister island, and
could not fail to remember the alarm which day by day
was felt by reason of these deputations, particularly by
the deputation which went to France headed by Smith
O'Brien. Surely that was considered an alarming circum-
stance by the English Government, but how could the
one proceeding be justified and not the other ? He be-
lieved the gentlemen in the present case to have acted
with good motives, and to have erred from inadvertence.
They were no doubt anxious to express their desire that
the two countries should be drawn closer together in the
bonds of peace and amity ; but different objects might
have been entertained. It might have been desired to
raise the funds by such a proceeding, or to depress them.
But without further observation he would proceed to ask
the question of which he had given notice, simply as-
suring his noble friend that he desired to give offence in
no quarter, and that if he thought his question would
even infinitesimally disturb the good feeling which sub-
sisted between the two countries he would not put it.
But, considering the high office which he (Lord Camp-
bell) held in the country, and that in that respect he was
a guardian over its laws, he begged to be permitted to
ask his noble friend whether the deputation of merchants
who were stated to have recently proceeded to France
with an address were sanctioned in what they did by her
Majesty's Ministers ?
Lord CLARENDON (who, with the other noble
lords who joined in this conversation, was imperfectly
heard) said, he could not help thinking that his noble
and learned friend had attached to his question more
importance than it deserved. Certainly, when the noble
and learned lord had the goodness to give him notice of
this question, he (Lord Clarendon) had not expected he
would have come prepared with high legal and parlia-
mentary authorities in support of his position, or that
he would have gone back to transactions which had oc-
curred 60 years ago. Still less had he expected that his
noble and learned friend, holding the high official posi-
tion he did, would have declared upon such evidence
that certain merchanti and citizens of London, in the
transaction referred to, had committed a violation of the
law. (Hear, hear.) It appeared to him (the Earl of
Clarendon) that a great part of his noble
assuming, as
learned
s friend's statement rested upon a fallacy,
his noble and learned friend did, that the deputation ap-
peared as speaking in the name of the nation. Such was
not the case ; and it appeared to him (the Earl of
Claren-
don) that they did nothing more than present
a qddres
y
from certain merchants and others of the city of London.
In reply to his noble and learned friend's two questions.
he would first of all acquaint him that Lord Cowley had
not in any way been superseded—(a laugh)—and that
the sanction of the British Government to the deputation
had neither being given nor asked. Two or three days
before the deputation.proceeded to France a gentleman
from the City called upon him and showed him the ad-
dress. That address appeared to him to be perfectly un-
objectionable. It was merely a record of opinion in fa-
vour of the maintenance of peace, and knowing the feel-
ings of the people of this country towards France, he
could see no possible objection to the document. The
gentleman to whom he referred then told him that this
declaration was to be presented to the Emperor. In it
he could not see anything which could be said to bear a
national character. The gentleman then asked him whe-
ther there WOl any objection to instruct our ambas-

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
NATIONAL EDUCATION.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I have now, in pnrsance of the no-
tice I have given, to state generally the intentions of the
government with regard to the important subject of edu-
cation ; and in so doing I certainly shall not think it neces-
sary to ask for the attention of the house, because lam
sure that, however inadequately I may perform the duty
which I am called on to undertake, the subject is one of
so much importance, and affects so deeply the religion, tho
morality, and the future well being of the country, that
this house will readily give their attention to any state-
ments which may be made, and to any propositions that
may be brought forward by the Government upon a sub-
ject of this nature. (Hear, hear.) I will begin by stating
what has been the course with respect to the education of
the poorer classes of this country from the commencement
of the establishment of public day-schools. These day-
schools were generally commenced soon after the beginning
of the present century. At that time two persons who had
both given very great attention to the subject of educa-
tion, and who are both deserving of commemoration for
their intelligence, and the laudable efforts they made in
that cause—l mean Joseph Lancaster and Dr. Bell—were
instrumental in introducing a large establishment of day-
schools for the education of the poorer classer in this coun-
try. Both of them proceeded on the system of having
monitors in the schools—chosen from among the boys at-
tending those schools by whom lessons should be given to
the children who were not sufficiently advanced to obtain
the entire attention of the masters. It was believed, and
it was certainly a matter of fact, that by this means a
larger number of children would be educated cheaply than
could have been done by the method of having a great
number of schools each with separate masters. But no
doubt that system was exceedingly defective, because it
only used the instrumentality of persons who themselves
deedi intelligent learning,
m
iw peculiar
anpetritethuelditertflaeopriadtedvaaaciing, and who could not give noi
ofh e
ainstructionhear.)
There
anwnhero thhadat personsru n
de-
voted
upona totopitch e
.obhajee:rt,
was. a difference
doing. (Hear, were capable of
most exciting nature in which were adopted the
systems
pursuant to the advice of these
two gentlemen. The system of Joseph Lancaster was
ad opted by a society called the British and Foreign School
Society, established in 1805, which proceeded on the prin-
ciple of teaching the Bible to all the children in the school.
That was a distinguishing feature of the system, and the
Ring, George 111., gave his immediate and liberal patron-
age to the plan. Many persons who were anxious for the
promotion of education—among others my father, the late
Duke of Bedford—combined for the purpose of placing
themselves at the head of institutions of this kind, and
Lord Brougham, Sir S. Romilly, and many others aided
them with their abilities and zeal. At the same time,
while these schools were thus promoted, there arose an
objection on the part of the established church, that though
the Bible was taught, there was no instruction given in the
formularies of the church of England, and accordingly at a
later period-1811, I. think—a society called the National
Society was formed, in order to give instruction not onlyin
the Bible, but in the catechism, and at the same time with
a rule that the children attending their schools should at-
tend the established church on Sundays. Seeing these
differences, there was immediately a hot contest with re-
spect to the principles on which the schools should be con-
ducted. I will not now enter into the merits of that con-
troversy further than to say, that to this day we feel the
effects of it, and that while it must be admitted that these
societies have contributed in a very large degree to the
education of the people, the feelings produced by
the
difficultcon-
tests of those days have made it , if not impossible,
Ito unite the poorer classes lasses in one general system of education.
On the one hand, the National Society, connected with the