The Sun.
London, England, 1854-07-19 00:00:00

THE CASE OF THE STAR.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that some time ago, in
consequence of a statement which appeared in the public
papers he brought before the house a case, the like of
which he hoped had never occurred in the history of her
Majesty's navy. It was stated that nearly all the crew
of the sloop of war the Star, Commander Warren, had
been flogged—some of them two, three, or four times—
that many of the petty officers had been disrated, in
order to place them in a position in which they might be
flogged, and that many of the able seamen had been
degraded into ordinary seamen. When he asked the
right hon. baronet, the First Lord of the Admiralty, if
that statement were true, the right hon. gentleman said

that only a few of the men had been flogged, and those
because they had stolen a cask of wine and got drunk
with it. That statement went forth, and he (Mr. Wil-

liams) received a communication from the crew of the
Star, indignantly denying the charge. In short he
(Mr. Williams) was convinced that the right hon.
baronet had been entirely deceived. He (Mr. Williams)
had, therefore, asked for a return of all the punish.
ments which had been inflicted under Commander War-
ren, but the right hon. baronet refused to accede to his
request on the pretence that the House of Commons
was not a fitting body to have anything to do with the
discipline or management of the navy. Why, the
House of Commons had done far more for the navy
(and the army too) than the right hon. baronet or
any of his predecessors, or any commander-in-chief.
Time was when the minimum punishment in the army
was a thousand lashes ; but in consequence of the
opinions expressed in the House of Commons, the Duke
of Wellington reduced it to 50. So in the navy, the
practice of flogging men through the fleot had been
abolished, and instead of a thousand, the number of
lashes had been brought down to 48. So much for the
exertions of the House of Commons and the press.
(Hear, hear.) And what had been the result of the
change ? In the army, there were flogged during the
year 1845 and six months of 1846, 341 men, who rste-
ceived 38,500 lashes, or an average of 113 each. La
year 45 men only were flogged, and they 4-eceived 1,900
i
lashes, or an average of 46 each. (Hear, hear) In the
year 1852, there were no fewer than 101 regments in
which there had been no corporal punishment whatever;
where 20 years ago there was probably not a regiment
in the whole service of which that could be said. In
the navy, during the year 1842, 2,170 men were floggedh ;
in the year 1852, there were only 575. ere
eauch more
he had been
cruel than those in the army. Indeed, as-
surred by an officer who had frequently witnessed both,
that 43 lashes in the navy were infinitely worse than 200
in the army. Did the right hon. bart.ittLeaunt taoxlyrnithuart,
the House of Commons, which had,
w
placed in his hands 13 millions, and the large patrol.),
ago dependent upon the expenditure of that vast sum,
no right to interfere ? Besides that amount, the
house had granted a large sum for rewards, to entice
men into her Majesty's service ; although the only thing
in the navy that sailors objected to was the cat. o'-nine
tails ; for the service had otherwise many advantag
over any other in the world. (Hear.) After the state-
ment which be had made in the house, an inquiry was
instituted by Admiral Perry, who at its close reprimanded
Commander Warren, and also repiimanded the crew.
After a long hesitation the right hon. baronet at last re-
moved Commander Warren. As for the men' the lan-
guage they used was quite noble. They said they were

ready anywhere to shed their blood in the service of the
Queen, but that they did object to have it shed by the
cat-o'-nine-tails of this Commander Warren. No won-
der that frequent desertions had taken place, or that the
ship had gone to sea in such a state of disaffection that
no one could prognosticate the result. What were the
crimes for which men were now flogged? Telling un-
truth, foul language, disrespect, insult, fighting, going
to an officer contrary to orders, quarrelling, smoking
when at their post, and other trifling matters. (Hear.)
There was no flogging in the French army or navy.
Now that the allied forces were together, what must the
French think when they heard the groans of their bre-
thren under the lash ? What, but that tliey were a
disregarded set of beings ? If the right hon. baronet
refused this return it must be because he was
ashamed to make it. He had evidently been mis-
informed. He said there had been little or no
flogging; the crew said they had all been flogged, and
some of them more than once. The right hon. gentle-
man concluded by moving for "a return of the number
of petty officers, seamen, and marines respectively, who
were flogged on board her Majesty's sloop Star, while
under the command of Commander F. P. Warren,
stating the alleged offence, the number of lashes in-
flicted on each ; the number who were flogged more
than once, and the number of lashes inflicted in each
flogging; also the number of petty officers disrated, and
of able seamen reduced to ordinaries.
Sir J. GRAHAM—The house may suppose from the
statement of the hon. member that I am under some
obligation to him on account of the courtesy which in-
duced him, on more than [one occasion, at my request,
to postpone this motion ; and I am not slow now to
acknowledge that courtesy. But I had hoped that the
delay which, at my request, he had allowed to take
place, would have led him to make a dispassionate state-
ment to the house, and one which was perfectly accu
rate. I will not go through the various inaccuracies of
that statement, but will just give a sample. The hon.
gentleman says there was a time when 1,000 lashes were
inflicted in the navy. I deny the accuracy of that state-
ment altogether; there never was a time when that
number was inflicted.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS— Mention the highest number.
Sir J. GRAHAM—Then he stated that 13,000,000/.
had been placed at the disposal of the Admiralty in
the present session. It is no such amount. Then,
again, he says that there is a fondness on the part of
the Admiralty for the infliction of corporal punishment.
The statement he has himself produced shows that,
during the last 12 years, so far from there being a fond-
ness for this species of punishment, there has been a
constant and progressive diminution of it ; and happily,
within the last two years, that reduction has been
brought to the smallest amount. (Hear, hear.) Then,
again, the hon. gentleman, even in the very terms of his
motion, wishes to be informed what number of petty
officers have been flogged on board the Star. I thought
I heard him say incidentally that petty officers, by the
rules of the service, could not be flogged ; but, by the
terms of his motion, he would lead the public to sup-
pose that this had been done in defiance of regulations.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS—I beg your pardon. No such
thing.
Sir J. GRAHAM—Read the motion. "Return of
the number of petty officers, seamen, and marines re-
spectively, who were flogged on board her Majesty's
sloop Star." That clearly points to petty officers on
board the Star being flogged.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS—After they were disrated.
Sir J. GRAHAM—The hon. gentlemen takes credit
to himself, that it was in consequence of some question
which he put to me in this house that theßoard of Ad-
miralty instituted an inquiry into the discipline on board
the ship Star. So far from that, before the question was
put, upon a representation made to the Admiralty, from
one of the crew of the Star, an inquiry was instituted by
direction of the Board of Admiralty. Then, again, he
says that, in consequence of that question, and in conse-
quence of the inquiry instituted, as he imagines, at his
instigation—which I deny altogether—Commander
Warren was removed by the Board of Admiralty from
the comm and of the Star.
Mr. WILLIAMS—I did not say by my instigation.
Sir J. GRAHAM—Commander Warren was not re-
moved at all from the command of that ship. On the
contrary, the Board of Admiralty was prepared to allow
Captain Warren to go out in command of the Star ; and
it is in consequence of his own ill health that he is not
now in command of that ship. Then again, the hon.
gentleman says that there was the greatest unwillingness
on the part of the ship's company to serve under Cap-
tain Warren. The fact is, that two-thirds of them ex-
pressed their perfect readiness to go with Captain War-
ren to any part of the world. Then, again, he says that
desertions were very numerous.
Mr. WILLIAMS—No. I said that desertions took
place.

Sir J. GRAHAM--I cannot speak positively ; but
my belief is, that there were not more than two deser-
tions from the whole of the ship's company after the cir-
cumstance to which the hon. gentleman refers. On the
last occasion when I addressed the house, I had to appeal
against the house constituting itself into a tribunal of
review upon decisions of courts of law, and was glad to
find that, along with others, the hon. member for Lam-
beth thought that that was not a proper function for the
house to assume. The hon. gentleman has referred to
a private conversation which he had with me about this
motion. I was certainly not prepared for his producing
before the houso what passed between us in private ;
but in public I am quite prepared to repeat what I then
said to him. He mistakes me if he thinks I said that
it was not one of the highest functions and duties of the
house to lay down principles for the guidance of every
branch of the public service. And if it should be the
opinion of this house, deliberately taken and deliberately
pronounced, that corporal punishment shall cease in the
navy, then, though I demur to the correctness of such
an opinion, still if it were deliberately pronounced, after
full discussion, in a full house, I think the executive
must adopt that opinion. But, on the other hand, I
say, if, apart from laying down principles, it should as-
sume all the details of the executive in the administra-
tion of discipline, such a course would be quite fatal to
all the interests both of the army and the navy. (Hear,
hear.) In this particular case of the Star, the matter
has been investigated—first, by Admiral Percival, than
whom a more humane and able officer does not exist in
her Majesty's service ; and he fully reported on the facts
of the case. That report was carefully considered at the
Board of Admiralty, in the presence of myself, two ad-
mirals, and one captain. We did come to a conclusion
that there had been indiscretion and misconduct on the
part of the commander, but not of such a character as
to justify his being tried by a court-martial or removed
from his ship. His errors of judgment were pointed
out to him, and he was admonished to be more cautious
for the future. With respect to the crew, there was
much want of discipline, and much insubordinate con-
duct. There was a particular transaction, for which
four men were flogged in one day, and where, I repeat,
it was distinctly proved in evidence on that occasion,
that a case of wine was broken open—that four sailors,
who were proved to be parties to the theft, were grossly
insubordinate and drunk on the occasion, and in my
opinion were properly punished. There were more in-
stances of similar insubordination and intemperance,
which were punished from time to time ; but it is a gross
exaggeration to say that two-thirds of the ship's com-
pany were punished. It is also quite wrong to say that
petty officers—for it is contrary to the rules of the ser-
vice—had received corporal punishment on board that
ship. Again I say, I shall be very sorry if this house,
on a matter of discipline, which has been carefully re-
viewed by the competent authorities, should erect itself
anden t untilshallthe
n o
hi notuos ea tribunal
e coi fdeaptpheanti icno rap sopreael iapl uenaisseh m;
longer be inflicted in the navy, I hope the house will
allow justice to be administered in mercy by the
t.the
execu-
tive government, and, in justice to the authority o
executive government, will not institute lightlyinquiriesswhh
into what it does. I may express the opinion,
am sure will be shared by the great majoritynfn ofthis
m house,ent etihthaetrcotroporwailtnpeusnsishomr punishment mostsmaptehethough
p(alllearl,puhneaisrh.)-
yet it is abs
breach of discipline are very few,
congregated in so
nt characters and
But< as I have frequently stated, u..gh ines_tuatneclye.sneet:
which I need not
narrowcessary,
awshpearcee,a
with
ht baondyt
hoefi
upheld, must be placed feelings, and other circumstanrmcedes
nifftareoree
refer, that authority, to be , . e in
and decisive ; but that,the same time, it
the hands of one man—that to be
aetff ective it must be
summary
must be carefully superintended and overlooked. I have
stated to the house that the rule of the service is—except
in cases of mutiny, requiring prompt punishment—that
corporal punishment shall not be inflicted until the
lapse of twenty-four hours from the commission of the
offence. A warrant, showing that the facts of .the case
justify the infliction has to be submitted to the Ad-
miralty ; all these warrants aro reviewed by a regular
Board of Admiralty, and in cases of doubt each case is
separately investigated by the board. When this is
known, I hope the house will not think that we are
wanting in the common feelings of humanity, It is our
duty, with a very scrutinising eye, to look into all these
cases. I assure the house it is a more painful duty, but
it is one which we feel incumbent upon us, not to relax
too unduly the discipline of the service. I hope that the
house on the whole will be content with the statement I
have made, and will not call for the production of this
retarn. The matter has been thoroughly investigated ;
Commander Warren has left the ship ; another captain
and another lieutenant have been appointed ; the crew
of the ship have now gone cheering to a distant station ;
the matter of dissatisfaction is settled, and it would not
be for the benefit of the public service should the house
agree to an inquiry into that arrangement, which has
been perfectly satisfactory to the Board of Admiralty,
and for which they are responsible.
Mr. L. HEYWORTH said he was led to believe,
from a letter of Admiral Dundas's, which he had seen,
that the best way of abolishing flogging would be to dis-
continue the supply of rum in the navy. Sir John Ross
had found that he could do very well without it in the
Arctic regions.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS, in explanation, said the
hon. baronet, instead of meeting the question,
recourse to special pleading. He knew that petty
officers, as such, could not be flogged ; but the
had been
moment
they were disrated they were flogged, and this right
had had
former occasion, said that cask of wino had been
done for the purpose. The right hon. baronet, on the

":ii.
_,-.1,-,,'eirl 51,774-- L, _
,t,„
-- i l!VOZ'::: .:: ri,l 1:::!'../ 00 'lO, ' ``.l 1":'' "• ' :II ' ;(4.:,
. ~, stolen ; now it was a case. Which would the right hon.:,.- 4-
baronet stand by ? (Hear.) He (Mr. Williams) did not •,..:0.-" :,t,
ea
1
ask for any change in the discipline of the ified,Ljtetletip.'i
wanted was a statement of the extent of pulliehliesit in bit,..!
1 the Star. The right, hon. baronet said that Compander, 4--' ''
Warren had not been removed ; but he had requested .
that this motion might be postponed until the Admiralty
had determined what should be done, and he understood
him to say that Commander Warren had been removed.
Sir J. GRAHAM--I did not say that; I said he had
resigned.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that was merely a gentle
way of letting him down.
Admiral BERKELEY denied that any petty officer
had been disratcd for the purpose) of being flogged. Such
a course would be contrary to the rules of the service.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS declined to divide, and the
motion was withdrawn.
PRINTING OF THE HOUSES.
Mr. 3. GREENE moved for a select committee to
consider the cheapest, most expeditious, and most efficient
imi
aomd
:ne of:
aproviding
übfolri
ct
she printing of the houses
enice.Hestate d
that tof h
e Par.
print.
ing done at the Stationery-office was effected much
cheaper than that done by the printers of the house ;
the latter cost twice as much as the former ; and by
placing both on the same footing, an annual saving of
about 20,0001. a year would be effected. Some years
ago he had been concerned in a scheme for cheapenin
the cost of printing; but he had not been able to carry
it out successfully. The honourable gentleman pro-
ceeded to describe the minutiae of his scheme, amidst
much laughter from the house. From what could be
made of it, it appeared to consist in an improvement of
the type ; and he offered to demonstrate that it would
reduce the cost of printing from a shilling to a farthing,
and enable compositors to set up 6,000 letters where
they now set up 1,000. At present all the morning and
evening papers paid at the rate of 3s. 10d. per galley of
5,000 letters. He was prepared to demonstrate that the
same work could be done for 71d. Under these circum-
stances, he thought he had a right to call on the house
for an inquiry. At present their printing was slow—not
economical, and not good. Let the Government appoint
their own committee, and he would undertake to give
them a good printing-office in a small room. The Ad.
miralty might have such a one in every ship in the fleet;
and that would be a great advantage at a time like the
present.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said be
thought this a question of very great importance, and it
involved considerations much more important than those
on the surface—considerations which it might be neces-
sary for him to bring under the attention of the house,
and to which he hoped the house would give what atten-
tion they deserved. Two questions were before them,
s eTr
vhiecefiorfstth we as,
Twerhne:
tolif earn the en t
pi rreilnyt idnigff er
er eqnuti r ceh ad
forrac ttehre.•
mostme nt andoc
economical
of that house was
nomieal
ninnneperformed
r.Ag. in
respected
the best
the
printing
tand
i ng
performed for the service of the Government, not that
limited portion which was most strictly of a confidential

character, but the ordinary printing for the service of
the Government, he believed that the best arrangements
which the market would permit was made for its per-
formance. As to the printing of the two houses, he was
not equally informed, but he was disposed to believe that
a very considerable economy might be effected in that
printing. (Hear.) That was not a matter which be-
longed especially to the executive government ; but whe-
ther it were taken up by them or by a committee of the
house, very considerable advantage might be expected
to result from the inquiry. He believed that that
branch of the public service might be more economi-
cally and advantageously performed than at present,
and he should be prepared on a proper occasion to act
upon that opinion. He did not think that there
would be any advantage in appointing a committee at
that moment, for the session had arrived at a period
so far advanced that no select committee appointed to
consider a question of that importance could be expected .
to make any effectual progress in it during what re-
mained of the present session. However, the Govern-
ment would give the subject all the attention they could
during the recess, though they had no special authority;
and, if they did not think fit to make any specfal pro-
posals, he should be glad to see a committee appointed
for that purpose. But the motion of the hon. member
raised other considerations—considerations of delicacy
and difficulty—of which he himself was not aware. The
hon. member said that he himself was interested in a
trading enterprise of great importance, which, according
to his representation, would tend enormously to econo-
mise the important process of printing.
Mr. GREENE—I beg pardon. Not in a trading
company. I stated that I was very much interested in
it ; but I did not say I was trading.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said ho
understood the hon. gentleman to state that he had ex-
pended a large sum of money in trying to promote this
scheme. The house should evince great caution before
appointing instruments of inquiry, clothed with public
authority, to inquire into enterprises of a commercial
character in which its own members were interested, and
with regard to which the avowed purpose was that those
members or the patentees, should be employed in the
public service. There was another ground on which he
could not accede to the motion. The hon. member said
such was the effect of these new mechanical processes
that they would reduce the expense of setting a galley
of 5,000 letters from 3s. 10d. to 71d. ; while in another
part of his speech he spoke of a reduction in an import-
ant department of printing from a shilling to a penny or
a farthing. Now was it fitting for that house to under-
take to determine, by moans of its own members, the
comparative efficiency and cheapness of different pro.
cesses ? Was it not rather their business to go into the
open market, where the capital and enterprise of the
country afforded far better opportunities of testing the
value of any discovery than any which were possessed
by them? It appeared to him that they would be
standing on most dangerous ground if they said that
they, the stewards of the public money, would undertake,
while incurring no risk themselves, to examine into cer-
tain processes and modes of printing, and, in defiance of
those who were practically interested, to speculate—for
that would be the effect—in improvements of this descrip-
tion. They were told of a great saving of time, and of
a reduction of expense from a shilling to a farthing.
Well, had the proprietors of the daily papers no interest
in availing themsives of these advantages ? It might
be said that there was a good deal of the spirit of mo-
nopoly in the trade ; but that would not prevent per-
sons who were not in the trade from combining together
to carry out the invention. (Hear, hear.) He really
thought they would be acting contrary to the princi-
ples of common sense by undertaking to make that house
the instrument of trying questions of that kind. He
did not in the least undervalue the hon. gentleman's
statements. If it were the fact that the attention of the
public and of the trade were not sufficiently drawn to
the subject, the hon. gentlemen's speech would have the
effect of remedying that evil. Moreover, if the hon.
gentleman's statements proved correct, the names of
Faust and Guttenberg would be rivalled by that of the
hon. gentleman himself--(laughter)—and bronze statues
would be erected to him and his friend similar to those
which had been recently set up in Germany. (Renewed
laughter.) It made a man's mouth water to bear of a
reduction in the expense of printing from a shilling to a
farthing ; but then that effect must extend to those who
were in the trade, or at all events to others, who would
naturally enter the trade for the purpose of carrying out
such an invention. (Hear, hear.) The Government
House
owere perfectly Commons
on s s rheoaudlyd, ac
on
nd s
imd oe
rs t
tdhees i rine ue
as ,n thaty t
wh eh
illc. butsho t
for the reasons own printisnogns
would not accede to the motion.
mightwhi be m
which he economically,heoepxeedeuted '
the house
ohsatd s
tate
d

chequer that in any affair.
had pecuniary interest, it was matter forgrave coml•
a
Mr. OT WAY agreed. woitfh
thisthe Chancellor of oaf
nitheemEbexa
vantage of t
d e rat ion whether
h e shouldsanhoet}o of
tihnatanhyouwsaey
open
usess his thuendader:
taking ; but he thought that when such an important
saving was in question an inquiry should be conceded.
Mr. GEACH perfectly concurred in the principles
laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the
guidance of that house, but could not see what distinction
there was between the case of printing and that of the
scale instead
hadoinf
becoming
pt
eproducing stood
ao dduoefui
ngpmgoi
ainnnagturhmi
to
oste
thtwuho
reeuer srsee
public
soo
fa davr I
no e : t
oe
nt ha e
veryG o -
manufacture of small arms. (Hear, hear.) The right hon.
largemeansextensivemarket,the of executing printing. He hoped the report of the
committee of which he (Mr. Geach) was a member would
prevent the right hon. gentlemen from persevering in the
course on which he had entered. With regard to the
motion, he entirely agreed with the right hon, gentleman
that it was not desirable for the Government to under-
take what was proposed. He could not help remarking,
however, that he believed that, if the invention for perfo-
rating postage stamps had not been referred to a commit-
tee of that house, it would never have been adopted. He
was satisfied that a much larger saving might be effected
in the printing of postage labels ; but in almost all the
government offices there were people holding permanent
appointments who were obstructive of anything like im-
provement ; and it required a committee of that house,
composed of persons who were accustomed to business,
1 and who would not be put aside by a mere statement r
difficulties, to do anything effectual.
next session the right hon. gentleman would c
the
assistance of a committee, and avail himself of
ser-
vices of members of practical experience.
gentleman (Mr.
Mr. J. WILSON said the honourable geo_
small
arms,
Leach) having alluded to the manufactureen f
t bad found fifty
he wished to say that if the Govetorndmo a He hopedoiu thatthe
11 that was ne-
cessaryprepared toand as regarded bothquantity
efareettuu raerr sk
themselves. (Hear, hear.)__ With
Government department per-
manentthat there were in everyre
ready
to obstruct every im-
provement, officers who never would have thought of becoming
regard
he
feltthat)ot more than a year ago Mr. M'Cul-
wiend to say, in justice to some of
those referred to,
the Under Secretary .
to the Treasury, ed
asury, suggest
velyan,
and he (Mr. J. Wilson) had given instruc-
tions the head of the stamp department, and Sir C. Tre•
an inquiry, and
investigation during the recess.
PELLATT condemned the course pursued by
Government with regard to small arms, on the ground
the
excluded competition.
that it exc
Mr. J. FITZGEIL&LD thought the motion ought to
tiol‘nisr.f
es
acceded to both on account of the alleged saving of
p eto the country, and of the bearing of the ques-
tionex-ene on education and general improvement.
Mr. V. SMITH said that if the hon. gentleman had
confined himself to asking for an inquiry into the most
effectual way of printing for the House of Commons, he
would have had no objection to such a motion, because
committees of that kind had been appointed before, and
with beneficial effect as regarded economy. The hon.
gentleman candidly stated in his speech that his objets