The Sun.
London, England, 1853-03-01 00:00:00

member that that opinion of the judges had been delivered
not on what were the abstract rights of that property, with
regiird 'to- which they were.to 'legislate,' but what were, the
particular powers of the colonial Parliament under the ex-
isting legislature. By their recent dealings with that pro-
perty they had put the colonial Parliament in the same po-
sition in which the Imperial Parliament then stood. There
was one argument, however, which !teemed to him a cont-
elusive oiae upon that. In 1840 both houses of Parlia.mene
had asseted to a course of legislation, which, uponh
principle of the noble earl opposite, must have
,beenha the
spolia-
tion and sacrilege. It had been said that so
property in question been made the prop
etTenof pledh
of England that it was not competent
Iffor the Govern-
ofment of this country now to deal with it. eathoeli
appro-
priation of 1,3691. per annum to the Roman Catholics
1840,03 was
an act the most sacrilegious. The measure
ent drawn from
opinion, effectually disposed of the am
the legislation of 1791. But the noble earle had further
argued, that having disposed of the clergy reserves of Ca-
nada by that measure of 1840, and having guaranteed that
propertyto certain parties, this countrywas precluded from
further interference in connection with it. He (the Bishop
of Oxford) fay admitted that strong language had been
used in support of the finality of the measure of 1840. But
what measure had ever passed which sanguine men had not
pronounced final with respect to the subject which it af-
fected ? It was only a few years ago that they had had
finality preached in that house, as a reason why they should
agree to the Reform Bill, which was now looked upon as
anything but a final settlement. Human legislation should
be a widely different matter from what it really is, before
legislators could hope to make it conclusive in its effects, or
to render its change impossible and unjust. He was ready
to grant that there might be some risk in leaving to any set
of men the power of dealing with a question so important;
but there was one thing dearer to him than any result could
be terrible, and that was to do justice. On dealing with
that, as with all other subjects, he would say—" Fiat
justitia, mat culum." He was desirous to see the colo-
nists possess a direct control over matters in which they
were so deeply concerned. Let that power be given to
them in the manner in which they would be least likely to
to abuse it ; but let them not withhold, through their ap-
prehensions, a privilege which the colonists had already a
right to enjoy. He had the strongest hopes that if the
people of Canada were generously dealt with, their lord-
ships would have no confiscation in the case of the clergy!
reserves to deplore. The way to prevent the colony dealing
foolishly with this property was for the home government
to deal generously with the colony. By telling the colonists
that they would not give the property over to them because
they would secularise it, was the very way to lead them to
think about secularising it. The question had been consi-
dered. by the Wesleyan body in Canada more suo, and they
had come to the conclusion that it was not a national, but
a provincial question, and without fettering themselves by
any resolution as to what should be done with the property
if they got it, they were unanimous in asking for power to
deal with it, because they considered that as their right.
They could never hope for the Church to flourish in the
colony so long as she was held forth to the colonists as a
Church which was to be supported against their will, and
in certain exclusive privileges, byamajority in Parliament.
He said, and he said it solemnly, that he believed that the
Colonial Church had a great work to do in this world. He
believed that with the strength of our nation, with its
language, its institutions, and its people, she had a charge
from God of carrying the purest form of His reveale
Word throughout the whole world. He believed that as a
member of that Church it was essential that he should do
all in his power to free her from every fetter that impeded
her spiritual work and disabled her for her high emprise.
He believed from experience that to represent that Church
to the colonists as an endowed section of the Church in the
mother country was the surest way of depriving her of her
strength. The history of the Protestant Episcopal Church
in the United States demonstrated to every candid mind
that nothing could be so unfavourable to the Church in the
colony as any such treatment of her by the Government at
home. So long as the Church in the United States was
dependent on this country—so long as it maintained the
tobacco tithe in Virginia, and its other rights and privileges
—so long was it spiritually weak, distrusted by the nation,
and timid and feeble in itself ; and he believed that it only
regaireed its full vitality when set free. He saw no reason
tg doubt—if the minds of the people were not too much
alienated by the hostile legislation of this country—that
the colonists of Canada would follow the wise example of
the United States ; and having received power to deal
with the question, would do so righteously and wisely.
The Bishop of EXETER wished to say one word with
reference to what his right reverend brother had said with
respect to himself. His right reverend brother had said
that which was not only not true, but which was quite
contrary to the truth. So far was he (the Bishop of Exe-
ter) from having supported the measure of 1840, he had
done his utmost to oppose it. In committee he had moved
the insertion of the word Protestant in one of the clauses
in order to exclude those sects who had no right to the pro-
perty. He divided the house on that occasion, and was
beaten, but he did his utmost to defeat the measure, as he
considered it a breach of faith as regarded the Church.
His right reverend brother had stated that he had surren-
dered to the colony all that had belonged to their domestic
legislation. But that there had been a reservation with
regard to some matters was clearly shown by the colonists
asking the Imperial Parliament for the power to deal with
the reserves in question. It was because the colonists had
not the right that the Imperial Parliament were now asked
to surrender it. The Legislature of Canada had already
swept away a college which had been endowed with grants
of waste land by this country. The right rev. prelate was
proceeding in his remarks, but sat down upon
Lord REDESDALE rising, and expressing his opinion
that, contrary to the rules of debate, the right rev. prelate,
while explaining, was entering upon new matter.
The Bishop of OXFORD wished also to explain. He
alluded to one or two words in the speech of his right rev.
brother, which though not likely to lead to a hostile meet-
ing, yet required some notice from him. (A. laugh.) His
right rev. brother had said that what he (the Bishop of
Oxford) had stated. was not only not true, but contrary to
the truth. Now, with all humility and meekness of spirit
(a laugh), he must say that what he had said was not alto-
gether incorrect, for though his right rev. brother had
taken one division on the measure of 1840 with reference to
the insertion of the word Protestant, he had assented to all
the other stages of the bill, and had allowed it to pass
without (as we understood) even a protest.
The Bishop of LONDON said that he should reserve
what he had to say with respect to the impolitic and danger-
ous proposals on the subject of the clergy reserves in Canada
until the measure was before them. His right rev. brother
of Exeter had entered fully into the question, and so had
his right rev. brother of Oxford. With respect to one of
the ooservations of his right rev. brother of Oxford, on the
subject of finality, he must say that in his opinion that if
there ever was a question in which finality ought to be
observed it was the question before them. The property
in question had never been given to the Legislature of
Canada, and they had no right ta deal with it. This
question, therefore, was not one of those matters whiCh
pertained to colonial legislation. If Canada were to be-
come independent of this country their Legislature might
then deal with it ; but so long as Canada was a colony of
this country, so long was the Legislature of Canada bound
by the conditions of a British colony. One of those condi-
tions was the maintenance of the clergy reserves as a means
of supporting the Protestant Church in the colony. His
right rev. brother had spoken of secularisation as if it were
a mere shadow and had said that the Legislature would, no
doubt, make sufficient provision for religious instruction.
But what confidence could be placed in a Legislature which
had acted as in the instance pointed out by his right rev.
brother of Exeter ? He would as soon trust a lamb to a
wolf as hand over the clergy reserves to the Canadian Legis-
lature. He could not agree in many of the remarks which
had fallen from his right rev. brother of Oxford. It never
seemed to have struck him that the terms which he had ap-
plied to the Church in Canada might be applied by others to
the Church much nearer home. He for one could never
consent to alienate property which had been set apart for
the diffusion of Christianity among Protestants in the
colony. Every year vast numbers of emigrants were going
to that colony ; and what provision, he should like to know,
had the British Government made for their religious in-
struction ? Other countries did not act in that way ?
France never sent out a body of colonists without providing
them with spiritual instruction. In Canada, the Church
of late years had been making great strides. If the whole
of the reserves in question were divided among the clergy
of the 550 parishes in the colony, each clergyman would
net have more .than 71/. per annum ; and yet they were
about to take from them the means which had been pro-
vided. for the support of the Gospel in the colony. He
could not consent to db so, and should vote against any
measure having such an object in view.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said he had so recently
aldressed,their lordships on the subject, and should so soon
have again to address them, that he would only say one or
two words. It was unnecessary for him to enter at any
length on the question after the able speech of the right
rev. prelate near him (the Bishop of Oxford). With re-
ference to a remark of the right rev. prelate who spoke
last, who had maintained that one of the conditions
imposed on the colonial legislature was the maintenance of
the clergy reserves, he must say that, on looking through
the whole history of this question from 1775 down to the
present time, he could find no such condition. In referring
to the act of 1840, the noble earl opposite had confounded
it with the Canada Union Act of 1840 ; and the right hon.
gentleman who had preceded him in his present office had
stated that there was such a condition in that act, with
I.hs view of preventing the Protestant Church in Canada
being,. overthrown by the Roman Catholics. The Act of
iluoniou preceded the Clergy Reserves Act, but he could find
ithr _,Vondition in it. The right rev. prelate opposite
the'a'i bop of London) had stated that he had no faith in
a latoadaian legislature, and that he would as soon trust
Herb g,
right rev.
ettecTolf as the clergy reserves to that legislature.
preia that such strong terms had been used by the
deavour to
prelat
fulfitlebecause they might induce them to en-
right rev. his prophecy. He knew not on what the
very momen the e,..,grounded his apprehensions. At this
able sums for th e,-senstadabilianshlmegeinsltatouref
awchereorveohtinofg cEonozsildeeerd-
college, and to the
ileeyytithin the province for educa-
tional purposes.
believed the question to be one ex-
clusively colonial in its character,
place in its legislature near him -said that ha, woad. The right rev. prelate
see the colony inde-
pendent than
with these reserves, the power of dealing
The Bishop of LOND
wasON said that what ho had stated
with the reserves.
was that if Canada independent then it might deal
the
cheered The Duke of NEWCASTLE accepted the riehtrev. pre-
late's correction. The noble earl opposite had-
right rev, prelate's remark, and that noble earl
dis-
tinctly stated that he would sooner see the Canadian _
vernment independent of England than see the right of the
Imperial Parliament abandoned.
The Earl of DERBY said that he had stated that if Ca-
nada were independent then it would have the right to
dual with this property, and that he would rather see the
colony independent and possessing such a right than he. a
minister nominally possessing the power of controlling the
colonial legislature' and yet compelled to yield te it that
to which it had not the right.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE thought that that was much
the same thine, as that which he had asserted. On that
occasion he should not say more, but should reserve any
further remark till the measure was before them.
The Bail in Error Bill was read a second time.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
SUPPLY.
The house then went into a committee of supply.
4VA---4 Ur. 3MNSELL, whom it was utterly impossible to
rt:t;,,,,.N,rose to submit the Ordnance estimates for the en-
, •e'l'W.S-45ii:- He was quite sure that though the estimates
\P:PflQU'lak4..i),, •
,/-,• . ail inm, .... •. Tie laid on the table of the house exhibited
„... ,;;;?,•7.tie.,e4ts_.., rim those of last year, he could show to the
......:;„,,,,,.,•a?ittion of honourable members that the addi-
' ceetaug, rilheril,reh Was quite unavoidable. Before pro-
il
inalm4oB4st,se:ite4.t
nroew .
li
eati?n of the committee which sat
emueinuast ?all attention to the fact, that
Al.
'iz: bee arried into effect, even to the cora-