The Sun.
London, England, 1854-12-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, DECEMBER 16, 1854.

been written by a chaplain of the forces, and a minister of
the Church of England. It appeared that Mr. Lawless had
not thought it inconzistott• with hi. 3 sacred duty, after
having officiated at the death-beds of those who had been
engaged in the war, to. send home to his country details
which never should have been made public, and which had
been divulged in the newspapers—the names of the officers
having been given at full length—thereby adding to the
poignant sorrow of their afflicted relatives. He thought
he was fully justified in stating his opinion of the conduct
of that gentleman, and he was sure in that opinion he
would be supported by the majority of their lordships.
As to the result of the war with such au army and navy
as we had at our command he could entertain no doubts ;
but he would appeal to the noble lords who formed the
Government, if they needed the experience and the as-
sistance of those who were opposed to them, not to hesi-
tate to ask it, for it would be readily granted.
Lord GOUGH said that •he could not but regard the
question which was now before their lordships without a
considerable deFee,,of interest, and he did not think he
Would be quite justified in giving a silent vote on the mo-
tion which was now before their lordships' house. He was
proud to say that the position which he now held was at-
tributable to the deeds of the army--(hear)—and, there-
fore, he could not pass by a vote of thanks to the army now
serving in the Crimea—an army a great portion of which
bad assisted him in another sphere—(cheers)—without car-
• dially joining in that expression of thanks which their
lordships were now about to pass. Hefully concurred in their
lordships' approbation of that gallant man who now
happily held the command of the army, and also of the
army which was under his coxtrol. With the sister ser-
vice he had been often associated, and, therefore, he cor-
dially concurred in the vote of thanks to the navy. Hav-
ing been also, when abroad, associated with the officers of
the French army, he would most cordially join in the vote
of thanks to the distinguished individual who commanded
that army, and to the noble army which he so well com-
manded. (Cheers.)
Lord COLCHESTER would suggest to their lordships
that it would be well befitting this country if Parliament
gave utterance to an expression of condolence with the re-
latives of those who had nobly Ellen in battle • and he
trusted some public monument would he raised to the
memory of those who had so bravely sacrificed their lives
in the service of their country.
The motion was then put and agreed to.
THE AUSTRIAN TREATY.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE, in rising to put a
question, of which he had given notice to their lordships,
said ho was fully aware that the treaty which had been
entered into with Austria would undoubtedly not be laid
before their lordships until it had been ratified. That
would doubtless be the answer of the Government, but he
wished to know how soon it was likely it would be laid on
the table ? Their lordships would admit that he was jus-
tified in asking this question, considering that the subject
was undoubtedly one of great importance, and that they
had been led to anticipate great advantages from it. Some
information as to the nature of this treaty had already
been given
but fromtheventowhat he knew he i
apprehended publicbyaleadngMpriehniesuded that
ter of the
Crown,
seteriaofweouphiluiroeupeat
dheorf assurances owf
itah fulltho
one step in the prosecution of the war that, in
nAwohllniialenesr,rAeiunt would be found that she would not take
point of fact, they would only receive from Austria
that same moral support which elm had long age
offered. Such, he believed, would be the effect of
the treaty ; but, at the same time, he would admit
that Austria having once signed such a treaty, it would
make it more impossible for her to take any retrograde
step, or decline, if it were necessary, to engage in hostili-
ties on the side of the Allies. If the treaty were of the
character which ho expected it was, he was sure that Par-
liament and the country would require to go into an ex-
amination of all they had borne and forborne in the hopes
of securing such an alliance ; and if steps were not taken
by Austria in respect to this war, by the assembling of the
house after Christmas, he thought that the diplomatic
negotiations
itia, in reference
o nh p t
toarttheo A
rf
riuustria
eipalitiwesi,thmtuhse Court of
t form
mthe
subject of rigid scrutiny. It wan perfectly clear that much
of our losses in the Crimea was attributable to the course
which Austria had adopted---(hear, hear)—and if Austria
still held back, this country had an account with her which
must be settled one way or the other. It was said that
we were not to have either a Polish or a Hungarian legion ;
and lie was quite sure that this country would do all in
her power to cement the union with Austria, so that she
kept good faith with her. (Hear.) He would ask, by the
re-assembling of Parliament, to have all these transactions
laid before their lordships ; and with that view he would
nut this question—when it was likely that the treaty
which had been lately concluded by the Allied Powers and
Austria might be produced ; and whether her Majesty's
Government would object to lay before Parliament, copies
or extractsagen t o s
in
t Th
rc
ko re rye, s pndoes (le le.inpcte of the i
ve of
o diplomatic
r relating or
t con-
sular
o rho
opolitical and military occurrences which had taken place
in the Danubian Principalities since the occupation of
those Principalities by an Austrian force?
Tho Earl of CLARENDON—My noble friend said that
he anticipated the answer that I should be obliged to give
him with respect to the first portion of his question, but I
am glad to say that I shall be able to give him a more
satisfactory answer than he expected, having received
intelligence this afternoon from Vienna that the treaty
was ratified yesterday. I now hold the treaty in my hand,
and will lay it upon your lordships' table, and I think it
will be unnecessary therefore, as it will be in your hands
to-morrow, to go into any discussion upon that treaty.
With respect to the papers to which my noble friend has
alluded, I am sorry to say that since he gave notice of his
motion last night I have not been able to look through
the papers, in order to determine how many shall be
produced. I can only assure him that the Government is
perfectly ready to give all the informatian it can as to
what was done with respect to the occupation of the Prin-
cipalities. lam only desirous that everything should be
laid before your lordships. But I think you will admit
that at the present moment there may be some inconveni-
ence in laying the whole of those papers before you, but I
can assure you that during the recess such of them shall,
be selected and laid before you as will give you full infor-
mation and convince you that the Government has done
everything that lay in its power to do. During the con-
cluding days of the last session of Parliament, in address-
ing you upon this subject, I said that the course which
the dignity, the honour, and the interests of Austria
pointed out was clear, and that I saw no reason to doubt
that that course would be adopted. Large voluntary con-
tributions had been poured into the Austrian Exchequer,
and there was no reason to' anticipate either that her
means would not be used, or that her opportunities would
be lost. That those means might have been used to a
greater extent I am not prepared to deny; but I must
say that that can be no cause of reproach to her Majesty's
Government, because you must be well aware that it is
out of the power of the Government to dictate to a great,
independent Power like Austria, as to what moment, with
a large frontier to guard, she should make war against a
powerful enemy like Russia. In regard to what fell from
my noble friend as to what assistance was to be expected
from Austria, I must beg to say that, at the time of the
expedition to the Crimea, the Austrian Government,
through Baron Hess, did propose to Lord Raglan and
Marshal de St. Arnaud to concert together as to carrying
on operations in the Principalities, and that they informed
him that they had already meditated an expedition.
against Sebastopol, and that they must decline the expe-
dition proposed by Austria. The Austrian Government,
they
occupied to sn e
each
u eproposed
h a
position
e x psingle-
handed, edition. s
c ot u
fully admitting of course our right to undertake any ex-
pedition we thought proper, without previous concert
with them, said that they wou/d no longer expect the con-
sent of onfoFt rtahnecue anhcel Englanding
in a state to fight Russia
the Austrian Government then determine'd to
augment their forces, and by withdrawing the corps
d'armee from Italy,
polled the Russians, from strategical motives, to evacuate
the Principalities. I should wish to remove some Misap-
prehensions which have existed upon this subject, and I
think it right, on the present occasion, to state what the
Government really did do at the time alluded to by the
noble lord, namely, on the 14th or 15th of August, before
the Austrian troops entered the Principalities. The con-
vention was signed with the Porto at the end of May or
beginning of June, at the time when the siege of Silistria
was being conducted with great vigour, and the issue was
doubtful, and there was no probability of the Turks being
have no
tnhoe course which the
able to cross the Denubteh.at TthheetrTeautrykawhasads, igerneesadeodn
thethe
14th ; the siege of Silistria wag raiseaduchonretqhuei2si4:
consequently, in August, we saw that circumstances were
altogether changed ;
Danube ; that they had occupied Buchareristg;hta,nudewdeerththene
convention,cTounrskicslemreigd that
thopa
utprusAut uea,sntayr
ni Austria
de
stwthroaauti
uif anpyo
made, the Government would not recommend the Turks
wanerd
on
an
to accede it. We wrote to Lord Stratford, et Constan-
tinople, that the Government did not wish any portion
foorte, the
Turkishee willth be
and u "occupied
ncaonPsiet by
of the Sultan,
and that we should consider that it was for the Sultan to
determine enforeign
force, except
territory
rho
by
free
determine whether it would be useful for Austrian troops
to enter the Principalities, and that we should not con-
sider it useful except with the concurrence of the Porte,
the Turks, and the Allies, and that all arrangements should
be made with their consent. We received from the Aus-
trian' Government the fullest assurance that no exclu-
sive occupation was intended, and that no difficulty
should be put in tho way of the Turks in their pursuit
of the Russians into whatever part they pleased or in
their crossing into Bessarabia ; and also, that all arrange.
ments for entering into Wallachia should be in concert
with Omer Pasha, and by his consent. Still great com-
plaints arose, and hindrances were put in the way of Omer
Pacha—(hear, hear)—aud upon that the strongest remon-
strances were made by the French aud English Govern-
ments and by th.e Porte; and I am bound to say this that
I they were met in a proper spirit by the Austrian Govern-
ment.. Most of the hindrances thus put in the way were
not known to the Austrian Government ; and we were in-
formed that the Austrian representative at Constantinople
aud the Austrian generals in the Principalities were not
acting in accordance with their directions, but contrary
to them ; and orders in accordance with what was desired
by the French and English Minister were sent by the Em-
peror. There may have been faults on both sides, for the
pitwl aheaegotsrethneas
authorised
t(nriahoeneaca(rist
sine
:ootsiuti
andg
.n
atntpere
appear
odhamoeiy.
Austrian generals were occupying certain towns and
wherevil-
o;tt:ii
wiy(
:chi
motives
,not,
eit
hdedat
erhidefflearatcsehnoufeynol difficulties
:et
which
yrhe
choose
cofdhhoi
sesubsistencetstehidnet ye,o distinct
Omar
wpenaaleavarnree
the Austrian Government,
of operations, and the commissioner was not a man to
smooth away the difficulties. But these complaints having
been made, Count Buol, to give proof of the sincerity of
himself proposed that there
Turkishoof
oinerrpe representatives,
ant] should
should be a mixed commission at Vienna, and that it
should consist of himself and the French, English, and
shoaledee receivepowerrho
summarily complaints
to
settle all matters in dispute. Her Majesty's Government
wh
who
a e
consented to such a commission, and that commission is
now sitting. One or two questions have been referred to
it, and I must say that the decisions have been satisfac-
tory. I hope, therefore, that no more cause for complaint
will arise. lam not aware that there is any other matter
to which I have occa ion to refer. •
THE ENLISTMENT OF FOREIGNERS' BILL.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE, in rising to move that the
house go into committee upon this bill, said he had heard
from several quarters that there was
an impression exist-
ing out of doors, fo-unded upon what the noble earl (Earl
of berby) who commenced the opposition
yesterday, had
stated to be the intention of the Government, namely, that
it intended that the militia and the British troops
gene-
rally should be removed from this country for foreign ser-
vice, and that their object in asking for power to enlist
foreign troops was to supply the place of the Englishforces
so removed. There was no member of that house who,
whatever might be his impression as to what might be done
under the bill, could believe that such was the intention of
the Government ; and he could only say, he must readily
and at once allow that, though there was a possibility of
much an event, it would be the duty of Parliament to pre-
vent it should any future Government attempt so uncon-
stitutional a course. But looking to the bill, he was ready
to admit that it was so draWn as to be liable to be eer-

verted to such a purpose, though he did not think that any
Government could long hold the reins of power if it made
such a use of the bid. He thought that no such power
should exist, and that the bill should bo altered in accord-
ance with the intentions of Parliament. To remedy this
defect in the bill, he proposed to omit a portion of the first
clause, and insert in the second clause such words as would
prevent such an interpretation being put upon the bill.
He must expressly say, that so far from their being any
desire to quarter foreign troops in this country, and send
away our own, he could only assure the house that he for
one was convinced that the state of the country was such
that they might part with every matt, if necessary, with-
out substituting any other force—(hear)—and that least
of all was it necessary to seek for foreign troops to keep
peace in this country. (Hear.) If he had had the slightest
suspicion that such an idea existed among any class of
the community, ha would not only have removed all
cause for it yesterday, but would have taken care that the
provision should have been then inserted which he now
proposed. (Hear, hear.) He would state, for the benefit
of the public,, that the sole object of the bill was to give
rower to bring foreign troops into this country, be-
cause, as he had before stated, it could not, of course,
be expected that foreign troops would consent immediately
upon their being enlisted, to go to the seat of war, and
there engage with the enemies of this country. If he were
asked why the number to be quartered in this country was
limited to 15,000 he would answer that 16,000 being the
number authorised by the Act of 1803, Government thought
that upon due consideration of the question, as there might
be circumstances of difficulty, especially at first, in con-
veying the troops to the seater war, in the absence of suffi-
cient steam power, &c., this number would be required;
but, at the same time, they would have no objection to in-
sert 10,000 in tLe bill in the place of 15,000. He did not
make that as a concession to the noble lord, but as an ex-
planation of what were the original intentions of the Go-
vernment. The first and second clauses of the bill would
be amended accordingly.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that he had ob-
jected to the bill, in giving to the Crown what he believed
to be an unconstitutional power, but he thought that there
could not be a stronger proof of the careless manner in
which her Majesty's Ministers considered great measures
affecting the military strength of this kingdom than the
statement now made that it was a matter of indifference
to the Government whether the number inserted in the bill
was 10,000 or 15,000 —the numberof troops in this country
—bearing, of course, the usual proportion of one-fourthAo
the number engaged abroad, and making, therefore, a dif-
ference of 20,000 troops who would be so engaged. He
thought that the fair and proper course for the noble duke
to pursue, Becht the important alterations that he pro-
posed to make, was to withdraw the present bill altogether
and lay upon the table an amended bill, which they could
take into consideration on Monday. If the noble duke could
not acquiesce in that, which seemed to him so reasonable
and parliamentary, where only a day would be lost, there
being so material an alteration proposed in a bill which was
assumed to have had due deliberation, it was impossible for
dim to du otherwise than he had expressed his intention of
doing. He had fully considered the reasons which he had
previously expressed against the bill, and he could only say
that furtherconsideration had confirmed the opinion which
he before entertained, that its principle was bad, and that
no proof of its necessity had been given (hear, hear) ; and
in the absence of such proof he thought it most proper to
adhere to constitutional principles. (Hear.) He rejoiced
that a noble earl had noticed an expression which fell from
the noble duke as to the conduct of those on that side of
the house, and imputing to them, by the observations which
he had made, a want of patriotism in opposing the measure.
(Hear, hear.) His memory carried him back to the last
war, and he could well recollect that at the beginning of
the present century, the measures of the Government for
the defence of this country were canvassed by all parties
with the utmost freedom in Parliament. All classes were
then, no doubt, in fear of a foreign invasion, but still the
late Lord Grey, Mr. Wyndham, the Earl Granville, and all
the first men of the day, showed no forbearance to the
Crown in discussing the measures which were proposed—
and pressing upou the house, in Parliamentary language,
their views of the several measures of the successive Go-
vernments. (Hear.) As a humble individual, and at a
great distance, he ir te ided to follow in their steps, and
he was not prepared to allow any inroad upon the con-
stitutional principles of this country. (Hear.) But
noble lords who had expressed their determination to sup-
port the war were to be considered consistent if they re-
fused absolute confidence to her Majesty's Ministers with
respect to the measures they might bring forward on their
responkbility for the conduct of the War. (Hear.) Between
supporting the war and supporting the Ministers there was
one of the greatest difficulties that could exist between any
two things. (Hear.) He (Lord Ellenborough) was one of
the oldest supporters of this war. He supported it long
before ',the noble lord at the head of 'the Government.
He mentioned, in April, 1853, that he was confident
this war was coming on ; that he was sure the Emperor
of Russia never would depart from the position he had
taken when he sent Prince Menschikoff to Constantinople
to enforce his demands. In the course of the session of
1853, he earnestly entreated their lordships to allow no
delay in proceeding with the bill for altering the Govern-
ment of India, on the special ground that there was danger
threatening us in the East, and that we should set our
house in order. (Hear.) There was a provision in that
bill for enabling the Government of India to add three re-
giments to their forces, but so urgent did he (Lord Ellen-
borough) see the necessity of strengthening our hands every-
where, that he actually laid a bill upon the table contain-
ing those clauses, entreating their lordships to pass it; that
was in Juno or July, 1853; but his noble friend' at the
head of the Government thought three months did not sig-
nify, and his proposition was rejected. 'He (Lord Ellen-
borough) went much further. He went to the utmost
limits of Parliamentary privilege. He asked the house at
the end of that session to delay a bill for the repeal of a
tax—(hear)—by which they • could indicate to foreign
powers their intention 'to adhere to the course they had
adopted, and stop Russia in her ambitious design. From
the very beginning of last session, he fatigued their lord-
ships by constant references to that subject. He entreated
them to make the country strong everywhere, iri the-naval
as well as the military service; and the Government now
came to the house to ask the house to pass this bill, inter-
fering with a constitutional prineiple, because they adopted
no course, and in consequence of their' own rejection of the
advice offered them. (Hear.) He (Lord Ellenborough)
said more. He said, "Be secret; secrecy is one of the
great foundations of success in war." (Hear, hear.) But
the objects of the expedition to Boinarsund and the Crimea,
for weeks before were made ,known to the public in the
newspapers, and information of the most valuable kind
was given to the enemy, and given through the newspapers
by Ministers. (Cries of "Oh !" and " Hear.") Ho was
not speaking of any particular newspaper; he was speak-
ing of a Cabinet. (Hear, hear.) It was a Cabinet secret,
and in some way or other it became public to the great in-
jury of the public service. (Hear.) By timely prepara-
tions they might accomplish any object ; but that was
neglected ; 'no timely preparations were made, and
now they were again asked; by a humiliating
confession of their weakness, to pass this measure. That
was the support he had given throughout in this war. He
had told them it was a statesman's war—afar-seeing war—
e war in its objects popular at first; but that, unless they
had a constant succession of success, the objects of the
war were so thoroughly statosina,nlike, it would bo ex-
tremely difficult to retain the support of the people. (Hear.)
losses They had h
we
hadt e support t
sustained,
and‘v butth we
g nhoe
rna he ele
oof o ked
m in
it
sot
et
rhe
and their rejection of that advice which had led to those
losses, be confessed he did not look forward with much
confidence to a long retention of the popularity of the war,
and which the measure now proposed was so well calcu-
lated to destroy. (Hear.) Now, as for confidence in
Ministers, he never professed any confidence in Ministers,
he never professed any confidence in them as a war Go-
vernment. He had stated reasons for a contrary opinion.
Ho admitted their great civil abilities ; he admitted it
was very probable that upon most subjects of civil govern.
ment he might see reason to acquiesce with them ; but
he did think that their constantly looking to the pros-

_
purity and improvement of the country was, to a certain
extent, the way to prevent them attending to the ener-
getic progress of the war, which would naturally very
much depreciate that prosperity and improvement; and,
without any disrespect to the noble earl at the head of the
Government, ho said it was not extremely likely that he
would do a thing well which he so thoroughly hated.
(Hear, and a laugh.) He (Lord Ellenborough) admitted
the Ministers were very clever, and that they all possessed
abilities far above mediocrity, though very few of them
possessed the great abilities we had seen in former times;
they had all, with one exception, a most extraordinary
talent for making good speeches of extraordinary length—
as much or more so than any Ministry the country
ever po sessed. (Great laughter.) The only person not
possessed with that extraordinary faculty was his noble
friend at the head of the Government—(laughter)—if
he did possess that faculty, in mercy to the house he
spared it—(increased laughter)—and in that respect, if
not in any other, he was the ablest Minister that ever
appeared on these benches. i But there was great
public mischief in that very equality of ability which per-
vaded Ministers—it was the absence of any great com-
manding ability, and the presence of so many very nearly
equal persons in the same Cabinet, which he was convinced
impeded rather than facilitated the transaction of public
affairs ; and he believed also that as what was called the
ballot was an open question with Ministers, he should
strongly recommend them to introduce. it for their own
internal arrangement —(a laugh)—to enable them to
strengthen their own position. .He spoke with no personal
animosity towards Ministers, but as an experiment he be-
lieved if one-third of their number was swept away it
would not signify one rush, and the remaining two-thirds
would be quite enough for the business of the country.
(Laughter.) Now he would take leave to say that iu those
distant times when they had great statesmen, they condes-
cended to assign reasons for their important measures;
and when they produced measures for the national defence,
they went, ho remembered, into the most elaborate details
as to the strength of the army, even of each corps ; the
success of the recruiting, and every fact known to them-
selves they made known to Parliament. (Hear.) The
noble duke gave them no information. If they looked to
the newspapers—and they now got more accurate informa-
tion from them than formerly—they were told of the ex-
traordinary success of the recruiting. If that was true,
so far from its being a reason in favour of this bill, it was
a reason against it. But he said—and he said it from the
experience of past times —that by far the most efficient
mode of strengthening tho army by recruits was to main-
tain at all times a militia full up as to complement and
popular in the country. (Hear.) He said, " Strengthen
the militia ' • do everything you can by every means to
increase it to the full complement ; make it the foun-
dation of your military system." By doing that, they
would be able to maintain the national honour and the
natienal interests by the national arms, and they would
not have to go begging at the ante-chamber of every
petty prince on the Continent for soldiers. (Hear,
hear,) Who were those foreigners to be? They were told
it would be indecorous to mention the names of any parties
until the bill was passed, and that no communications
would be made to foreign Governments-till then. But, he
would ask, was there any understanding, or was there not?
or were they going to take this leap in the dark ? The noble
duke had taken one leap in the dark already, but it would
he better not to take two. Neither he (Lord Ellenborough)
nor any one else could object to the passage through this
country of a German force; hi could imagine it just pos-
sible that the King of Hanover might, as a sovereign prince,
join with the allies, though he might be unable to give
much assistance with his forces; he should not object to
place tinder Lord Raglan 5,000 or 6,000 of those magnifi-
cent troops which, he admitted, had been faithful to us in
former wars. Under those circumstances, for a short time
no ono eould object to their being in this country; but
they were not told to expect that ; they were obliged to
infer that those men who would be in this country would
be persons now in the service of the Gorman princes, and
could only come here by the intolerable course of our con-
awing at their desertion. But suppose those soldiers
brought here, where would the noble duke put them?
They were told last night there was that objection to em-
bodying the militia. They were told last night there were
no barracks for the militia. Were those foreigners to oc-
cupy our barracks, or were they to be billeted ? The noble

duke must know that was not to be borne. If there were
not barracks for these men, it would be impossible to I,:sep
them in this country, unless, indeed, he should place them
under canvas. (Elear.) But he begged leave to ask, if
those men were to be engaged in be: Majesty's service,
why were they to come hero at all ? This was not the
short way to the Crimea. (Hear, and a laugh.) Round
by London and the Bay of Biscay, was that the way for
those aspirants for martial honours and English pay?—
(hoar, and laughter)—was that the way to the Crimea?
No doubt, when France was in possession of Italy, and
Austria wanted all her subjects, and half Germany was
against us, no doubt then it was necessary for such
forces to pass through this country. But that was
not the case now ; their shortest way was by Trieste ;
their best place would be the lonian Isles. There at once
they could act the part of a garrison; there they could look
after those worthy Greeks—(a laugh) —that noble people.—
(laughter)—of whom theyhad read so much in classic story.
But that was the place to form a depot, and a depot became
the reserve of the army. (Hear.) Take your foreigners
there if you choose, but don't take them through England;
send them to Trieste, thence to the lonian Isles. there you
will have them ready, and no one will object., (Hear.) He
(Lord Ellenborough) believed that the more facilities Par-
liament gave to the Government for the formation of fo-
reign regiments, the less trouble Government would take to
engage home regiments. (Hear.) The whole question was,
raise your bounty and lower your standard. (Hear.) Bat
if they followed the principles of political economy, they
would go to the market where they could get the cheapest
article. Do that, and they would have expelled English-
men from their army and substituted foreigners; for it ap-
peared to him of all the measures he remembered under
any Government this was the most unjust, the most inju-
rious towards a generous and confiding people. (Cries of
" Hear, hear.")
Lord BERNERS considered the house had not heard
any argument why this measure should be adopted, and
he believed it would repress, instead of encourage, British
spirit and enthusiasm. At the same time, he protested
against the assumption that any peer on that side of tho
house, if he ventured to dissent from any measure proposed
by the Government, was actuated either by factious mo-
tives or was inconsistent.
Lord WODEHOUSE said the argument used by noble
lords on his (the Ministerial) side of the house was, not that
measures proposed by the Government should not be dis-
cussed, but that it was hoped that noble lords opposite,
considering the great difficulties which must be met by
any Government carrying on a great war, would approach
those measures with a desire to discuss them calmly, and
not make them a handle for appealing to the passions of
the people, and thereby embarrassing the Government.
He hoped the house would be disposed to take a favourable
view of the measure, as these foreigners would be brought
into the country solely for the purpose of training, and
they would almost immediately afterwards be sent out to
the seat of war. He trusted their lordships would only
look to the present necessities of the war, and that they
would not think it expedient to reject, but, on the con-
trary, to assent to the bill. (Hear, hoar.)
The Earl of HARDWICICE said the speech of the noble
lord who had just sat down was one of the most depress-
ing character to the feelings of the people of this country.
The noble lord had stated that the Government were going
to raise a foreign legion from tho necessity of the case, that
they were obliged to have recourse to this expedient. The
expressions which the noble lord had used were of a most
formidable character, and would go to raise the hopes of
the Emperor of Rissia and depress the feelings, the spirit,
and the courage of the people of this country. The ex-
pressions were the most cringing and degrading he had
ever heard uttered in a British house 'of Parliament.
Lord WODEHOUSE rose to order. The words ho had
used did not deserve such strong observations from any
noble lord, however much he might object to them. It
was clear it was necessary to have recourse to a foreign
legion, because they could not raise sufficient troops to
meet the necessity of the case. If they could have raised
enough of their own men, Government would not have
introduced the bill. All that his observations implied
was, that as former Governments had so reduced the
strength of the army in times of peace, the present Govern-
ment, in an emergency, found it necessary to resort to the
expedient of raising a foreign legion. He (Lord Wode-
house) repudiated altogether the strong' expressions used
by the noble earl, and he denied that his words•were such
that any British peer ought to be ashamed to use them.
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," and cheers.)
The Earl of HARD WICKE assured their lordships that
he should adhere to the expressions which he had used. He
would not retract a word, as his opinion was that the senti-
ments of the noble lord would convey feelings of degrada-
tion to the minds of the people of this country, while they
would convey to the Emperor of Russia feelings of hope.
The noble lord must know that, in making use of these
observations, he (Earl of Hardwicke) had used them in a
strict sense, and as a member of the British Legislature.
The idea conveyed to his mind by the noble lord's speech
was a degrading one—it was that the people of England
Were reduced to the necessity of being compelled to raise
a foreige legion. No British statesman ought so to have
expressed himself. (Hear, hear.)
Lord WODEHOUSE again rose to order, and complained
of the noble earl having misinterpreted his observations.
The Earl of HARDWICKE said he should not make
any apology, as he had not used words in any sense other
than that which he was privileged to do as a member of
their lordships' house. The arguments in favour of the
bill were, that during a long peace the army had been
much reduced, and now that the Government were sud-
denly called upon to go to war, they had not the means of
carrying it on without foreign soldiers. He would ask,
which was the party in that house who called upon the
Legislature to reduce the forces. Where sprang that feel-
ing ? Why, in the large manufacturing towns and the
principal seats of commerce in the kingdom, backed by the
noble lords and the right hon. gentlemen now forming her
Majesty's Government. He objected to the employment
of foreign troops, because he conceived that, ae one of the
most important features of war was that the taxes which
were raised were taken from the pockets of the rich and
put into the pockets of the poor, they should be paid, to,
and go to, tho support and assistance of their own people,
and not be paid to foreign mercenaries. There could be
nothing more 'detrimental to the spirit of the people than
, the proposition before their lordships. The bill would
depress the feeling existing in the army, and it would
interfere with the reruiting now going on for the
He felt confident that there would be no
difficulty in raising sufficient troops. The state-
ments were made general as to the enthusiasm of the
people to meet the exigencies of the war. (Hear, hear.)
He could understand that it might be necessary to raise
troops from what had been called the depressed nationali-
ties, anti he could perfectly well ponceive-that a bill would
be necessary for that purpose; but he fully believed that
the people of England were not disposed to carry on the war
at that rate. He was firmly convinced that the power of
this country, the readiness of the people to support the Go-
vernment, and the great resources of the country, if pro-
perly operated upon, wculd be perfectly sufficient to bring
the war to an honourable and triumphant conclusion.
Earl GRANVILLE said that the noble earl felt great
disappointment that ho was not engaged in the war, yet he
would, upon reflection, see that the line of conduct which
he had just taken was most injudicious and inadvisable to
take. The course adopted of applying unworthy epithets
to the arguments of another noble lord, and the attack
made upon the great commercial classes of the country,
ought to have been avoided at a moment like the present.
(Hoar.) It should not be (forgotten by the noble earl that
the Government of which he was a member added only
5,000 men to the army, and 2,000 to the navy. The argu-
mentsadoptea by the,noble earl were thole used in 180,
when a similar bill was introduced--it was said to be un-
constitutional, and that 15,000 foreign troops in the coun-
try might create alarm. But this was all talk. If the
Government were to introducedouble the number, they
would be utterly incapabie of doing the least harm. The
suggestion of the noble earl, that they ought to be sent to
the Mediterranean, was much more dangerous. The noble
earl's speech simply came to this--"I support the war,
but I do not support the Ministers, as they are not the
proper persons to carry it on." Now, the house ought to
decide this question, and declare whether or not Ministers
were worthy of their confidence in carrying on the war.
The noble lords opposite professed to give their assistance
to the Government, and yet they attempted to create an
unfounded prejudice against every single measure which
the Government introduced. (Hear.)
it:Lord VIVIAN should be prepared to vote for the mea-
sure if he believed there was really any necessity for it;
but having heard the noble Duke at the head' of the War
Department state that great anxiety existed among the
young men of the country to enlist under the banners of
the army, he could not see why, at the present moment,
we should be obliged to have recourse to a band of foreign
mercenaries. They had learnt from the noble duke that
sevenfold more recruits presented themselves now than
there did some two months ago. The danger of such a
measure also weighed in his mind against its further pro-
' gross. He was ready to do full justice to the bravery of
the gallant German legions and the Brunswick troops dur-
ing the last war, and to admit that it was an objectionable
course to avail ourselves of their services; but the circum-
stances then widely differed from these which now existed.
We were then all engaged in a common war against a com-
mon enemy; all Germany, with the exception of Saxony,
joined with us, and, therefore, little objection arose to the
employment of Germans, especially in the state of Bruns-
wick, which was under the rule of the Sovereign of the
country. If similar circumstances arose he should be most
willing to assent to the proposal of the Government; but
at present ho felt compelled to vote against the bill, believ-
ing it to be, as he had already said, one of a dangerous
character.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said, as be was in the
unfortunate predicament of finding himself obliged to veto
for a bill to which he saw very great objection, he wished
to explain the views which guided him to that conclusion.
First, as to the principle, he agreed in almost all the objec-
tions taken to the kill by the noble earl who spoke so forci-
bly on the other side of the house (the Earl of Ellen-
borough) ; but when the Government stated, what he
owned ho was inclined to believe, that we wanted men for
immediate action, and that this bill would bring service-
able men) he owned he could not take upon himself the re-
sponsibility of rejecting it. He entirely agreed with the
'noble earl that the Government had made a very meagre
statement as to the necessity of the measure--(" Hear,"
from the Opposition)—but at the same time the refusal of
Parliament to assent to a bill so forced on their attention at
a very early period of the session would have a most in-
jurious effect in this country, and he feared also in foreign
nations. He was quite of the same opinion as the noble
earl, that no such necessity as that alleged by the Govern-
ment ought to have existed. (Hear, hear.) He (the Mar-
quis of Clanricarde) was one of those who, in the early
part of last year, spoke of the importance of the war in
which we were about to cuter, and of the absurdity of
thinking there would be any peace. He remembered nsing
a word from his own vocabulary, that Ewe were likely to
enter into a disastrous war, though ho did not mean to
express the slightest doubt about the results being glorious
and successful to us. He intended to convey that it would
be a sanguinary war—one which would call forth great
exertions, and for which the Government ought to strain
every nerve. He unfortunately thought that the bill would
do some harm to the enlistment of recruits throughout the
country. (Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) Though
giving a qualified asseut to the bill, he considered it to be
unwise, and ho should throw the entire responsibility of it
upon the Government.
The Earl of DERBY—My for in the speech of my
noble friend I concur almost from beginning to end, but in
the conclusion at which ho has arrived I am sorry I cannot
concur, for that conclusion is'contrary to the whole tonour
and argument of his speech. He admits every objection
to the bill on the constitutional ground, and on the incon-
venience and danger of adopting the course proposed.. Ho
admits that the Government have shown a very meagre
case with regard to the plea of necessity which has been put
forward. Ile Says, as long as the Government asks for
troops to carry on the ware—so long, whatever the proposi-
tion be, I hold that the Houses of Parliament are bound to
grant the troops which the Government ask for. Now, my
lords, so long as the Government are acting in the discharge
of their Government duties, and more especially in the

prosecution of a war of this consequence and magnitude, I
hold that very great latitude is to bo given to the Govern-
ment, and that support should, as far as possible, be ten-
dered to them consistent with the constitutional principle,
and even at some sacrifice of private opinions. But, in the
discussion this evening, the very powerful speech made by
my noble friend (Lord Ellenborough)— a speech delivered
with more than all his usual eloquence, ability, and power
—has completely disposed of this part of this question,
and it has never been attempted to be grappled with by
any member of the Government who followed him. The
noble lord the Under Secretary for the Foreign Depart-
ment took exception to the manner in which my noble
and gallant friend characterised the arguments which were
made use of. Now, without meaningto say anything per-
sonally disrespectful to the noble lord opposite, I must en-
tirely concur with my nob!e friend, that the argument on
which he rested his plea—the plea of necessity that was
put forward in such piteous tones to the House of Lords,
for the purpose of inducing it to adopt a measure, bad and
unconstitutional in itself, was a plea degrading to the Go-
vernment that brings it forward, and humiliating to the
country to have to accept. (Hear, hear.) And, my lords,
that plea of necessity—of so-called necessity—is not proved
on the part of the Government. That plea is the only one
on which, contrary to his opinion, contrary to his judg-
ment, my noble friend the noble marquis gives the Go-
vernment his vote on this occasion, while he supports all
the views and opinions of my noble friend near me. I
hope after what has passed, after the alterations which the
Government consented at once to introduce the moment
they heard a feeling was excited out of doors by the bill—
alterations which they ought not to have been ready to
make if they had properly-considered a bill of this momen-
tous character—a bill brought forward on the plea of ne-
cessity, and though objectionable, the only remedy for the
difficulties in which the Government is placed. When a
bill is brought forward of such a character, and under
such circumstances, the Government should be prepared
to vindicate and adhere to every syllable of the bill, if it
had been properly considered, but the bill has not been
well considered, because they do not seem to care whether
the number of troops is 10,000 or 15,000, because they
happen not to hare calculated the effect of the bill ; and
on the very first moment of a cry out of doors, they,
are ready to modify and alter it, and I admit to the noble
duke, in a way greatly to improve the measure—l hope, I
say, that these alterations, this submission to opinion out
of doors will, at all events, exonerate myself and my noble
friends from any charge of faction which can be brought
against us. (Ironical cheers from the Duke of Newcastle.)
The noble duke cheers in a very extraordinary manner, but
I ask him whether he does not consider it a matter of for-
bearance when, on a question involving the deepest inte-
rests of the country and great constitutional principles, we
are satisfied that Government should call Parliament to-
gether and discuss that measure not 10 days before the
necessary breaking up of Parliament; and in consequence
of the limited space of time which is allowed for the dis-
cussion of public business, we not onlY permit them to
introduce that measure to which we greatly object, and
read it a second time without opposition or discussion, and
almost without having it printed, but we allow them to
proceed from that most important stage of the bill and go
to the next stage. on the following day ? I ask, when a
bill of this consequence, upon which there is a material
difference which the Government itself is obliged to admit
—is permitted to pass through the house with so little
consideration on the part of the house, have we not an
answer ready to the taunting cheer of the noble duke op-
posite with regard to the forbearance that has been shown?
I say, if this bill be justified on the plea of necessity, that
is a necessity for which the Government ought to be respon-
sible. The noble lord the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lan-
caster, in reply to an observation which fell from my noble
friend the reduction of our military establishment in a
time of peace, thought it necessary to advert to the little
progress which was made during the short time my noWe
friend and myself held office, in raising that establishment.
My lords, during the 10 months—for that was.the extent,
as my noble friend opposite well knows—during which we
held office, I venture to say, though I by no means am
satisfied we did everything that was required toward the
increase of our military and naval establishments, yet a
treater increase was made in the number, amount, and
efficiency of both the military and the naval departments
of the country than was made in the 10 or 12 years pre-
viously. It was not only that we added 5,010 men to the
army and only 2,060 to the navy, but I should like to
know what the Government would have done at this mo-
ment if, in 1852, we had not raised, established, and or-
ganised the militia in spite of much opposition. (Hear.)
It is very well for the noble lord now to laud the militia,
and speak of it as an invaluable corps, but did we meet with
no opposition in our attempts to establish it? (ilear.)
What predictions of failure—what necessity of having re-
course to the ballot—what unwarlike spirit on the part of
the country—what impossibility of carrying out thevolun-
tary system in 1852. (Hear, hear.) We have, triumphed.
over the opposition in the house ; we found no opposition
out of doors ; and when we raised the militia to an amount
beyond which it has not been permitted to go since, we
are told now, forsooth, that we did nothing in 1852 to-
wards remedying the deficiencies of the peace establish.
ment. Is that all ? I think, if the noble duke is still of
the same opinion he should consult the noble lord the com-
mander of the forces • and if he does, I will thank him to
inquire what was the state of the artillery guns and the
gun-carriages, and what were the means of carrying on a
war, if a war came to us within the course of 12 months
after our taking office in 1852, and also where the present
Government would at this moment be if no provision had
been made for guns and gun-carriages in that year? I will
go further, and ask the noble duke to go to his own First
Lord ot the Admiralty, and ask him what he thinks of the
introduction during those 10 months of no less than nine
new screw line-of-battle ships ?. (Hear.) I ask, where
would the navy be if it were not for the exertions of my
noble and gallant friend the Duke of Northumberland,
to whom justice has never been yet done ? (Cheers.) I
would wish him to put these questions, not on my own
part, but on that of nay noble and gallant colleague. I say
that within those 10 months more has been done to
strengthen the army and navy in a time of peace, and for
securing proficiency in case of war, for the administration
of the military and naval establishments, and providing
an increase of naval stores, than was done in any previous
years, or even done since, until there came the immediate
and unparalleled pressure of war. Now we are told this
is a case of, necessity, and that war came on us all of a sud-
den. I say that war did not come suddenly upon any one
except her Majesty's Ministers. (A laugh.) The whole
world expected a war for the last two years—for the last
13 months at all events; and during those months you
ought not only to have been making incessant preparation
atm levying forces, but by every means you ought to have
augmented the regular army and militia, so as to relieve
yourself from this degrading necessity, as I contend it is,
of coming to Parliament before the first year is well over,
and saying you have not got men to carry on the war with-
out the introduction of German troops. lam not going
through the argument as to the means you have of raising
these German troops—from what quarter you are likely to
derive them ; whether with the consent, or against the
consent, or with the connivance of, the respective Sove-
reigns of these petty German principalities. I will not
ask whether you are likely, under these circumstances, to
obtain the best and most valuable troops. This I can say,
that the preamble of the bill of 1801, to which the noble
duke made reference, thought it necessary to recite that,
whereas there wore large numbers of foreigners ready and
anxious to take up arms in our cause, and join with us,
but could not be admitted into our service without the
consent of Parliament, therefore an application was made
for them. (The Duke of Newcastle made an observation
across the table.) Have you recited that a certain large
number of foreigners, partaking of the same sentiments,
and having the same interests and objects in view as your-
selves, are ready to join you ?
The Duke of NEWCASTLE—The other bill recites
what we do.
The Earl of DERBY—If it recites what her Majesty's
'Government do, I confess it will recite very little. (Laugh-
ter.) , You cannot recite the preamble of the other mea-
sure. 'There were then a large body of men anxious and
willing to serve the Government, who knew from whonce
they would come, to what extent, and the reasons for
which they could depend upon them, and therefore the
Government asked Parliament to allow them to employ
those gallant men. But the present case is entirely dif-
ferent. Now, where aro you going to get the persons from?
I don't believe you know. I think it is exceedingly doubt-
ful whether you will get, even by the consent or against
the consent of these petty German Sovereigns, any valu-
able additions to the British army. But, have you any
idea of the number you will require? What is the amount
of your necessity? Without German troops you say you
cannot carry on the war.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE—The Emperor of Russia
would be exceedingly glad if I were to tell you. (Hear.)
The Earl of DERBY—But you have admitted to the
Emperor of Russia that without German troops you wil
be unable to maintain the honours of the country. (Op-
position cheers.) The noble duke thinks he has said some-
thing exceedingly smart ; but whenhe comes to the House
of Commons for money to pay these men he will be obliged
to state the amount of his necessity. (Hear, hear ) I
want- to know if you desire 10,000, 20,000, 30,C00,
iO,OOO, or 50,000 Germans ? You will have to tell the
House of Commons how many men you mean to take ;, and
really when you tell me that to state the amount of troops
you require from Germany is to divulge a secret to the
Emperor of Russia, think at the present moment it is a
great secret to the Government to know what amount of
troops they actually want; still more, what amount they
are likely to obtain. (Laughter.) I think it has been
stated Unit Parliament has considered that the Govern-
ment might go so far as to engage these troops, but not
bring them to England. Well, I say, why bring them to
England? My noble friend (the Earl of Ellenborough) has
shown quite lucidly that the English channel is not the
shortest way to the Crimea. You say you don't want to
keep them in this country, and I may- say here from the
feeling in the country on the subject it is not desirable
that we should see them. If you choose to bring Ger-
man and Swiss troops into England, you must take upon
yourselves the responsibility of the act, and ask the House
of Commons to pay for them ; but don't ask Parliament
to sanction the course, and to put its fiat on what yott
have done, and thereby admit that it is necessary for the
honour and safety of the country to, employ these foreigu
soldiers. My lords, this calling in of strangers has been,
from the earliest ages, from the period of the fall of the
Roman empire down to the time when that passionate in-
vocation was made by Alfieri—
" --- del non suo ferro cinta
Pugnar con bmscia di stannierf genii ; "
the surest sign in all countries of the weakness of a nation,
the most unfailing indication of approaching decay. (Hear,
hear.) Ido not believe ,that England is in such a state
that you would have to encounter the difficulties you seem
to anticipate—the raising tho necessary amount of troops
in the country. (Hear, bean) I have been assured
that at the present moment, though you have somewhat
lowered the standard height of, your troops, yet that it
might be lowered considerably further, and that this, with
an increase of bounty, would bring a considerable addition
to your forces. (Hear, hoar.) lam told that even at the
pre ent moment you refuse to take any man who has
reached the age of 30. .(Hear.) Well, my lords, you
want those men at a particular moment, and for a parti-
cular purpose. You want them for the purpose of .
imme-
diate action ; you want their services probably for aperiod
of not more than three or four years. Now, I ask the
Government whether a man of 30, in the full power of
manhood—in full activity of both body and mind—would
not for so brief a term of service as three or four years be
infinitely preferable to lads of 17 or 18 to send out to the
Crimea—that pestilential climate in which we
renre en-
gaged in war? (Hear, hear.) Lower the standard. height
of the troops, and, if need be,
crease the age of enlistment;
increase the no.nnty----111-
toll the country how many men you want—that you 'want
them to maintain the honour and dignity of the nation—
the Government will be able speedily to meet thelexigency_
,won't come
the
a
(Hear, hear.) But if you toll the country its means aro
exhausted—that you must have recourse to foreign troops
—that British troops cannot be
k
found,t o
erwillu
take f h
r
ward—that they are rawand undiscait u
plined, and that you
scannrensottmeneatin-ussetfthem—if y oy
extinguishing
the
feeling
of the country—
that spirit which is now altogether with you. Do not do

S

I

so; on the contrary, for God's sake, encourage that spirit
—that till, which is, under Provid(mee, the
wark, the safeguard under which you can hope to bring
this war to a successful and honourable issue. But if you
wish to damp that spirit—if you wish to run counter to
this feeling or prejudice (call it which you will)—if you
check the national ardour at this moment—if you desire
by legislation to attain these results, then, my lords, pass
this bill. (Loud cheering.)
The Duke of ARGYLL did not wish to introduce any
acrimonious feeling into this debate. lie could not doubt
for a single moment that the noble earl and his friends
would give their support to any measure which they be-
lieved for the interests of the country. But he protested
against the noble earl (Earl of Derby) assuming to him-
self upon every occasion such extraordinary magnanimity.
He did not believe the noble earl would oppose a measure
which he considered absolutely necessary for the safety of
the country ; but the noble earl took every opportunity
of detracting from the merit of Government, mad imparting
party spirit into the debate. A noble duke, ono of the
supporters of the noble earl, had borne his testimony to the
efficiency of those mercenaries, as they were now termed,
and he regretted to see that that noble duke was to night
purposely absent. The measure would probably add
10,000 or 15,000 men to the service of the country ; and
interested as they were in reducing the power of Russia,
no real objection had been or could be urged against
He again warned noble lords not to be led away by the
clap-trap of the two noble earls (Ellenberough and Derby),
whose speeches ought not to be permitted to influence the
decision of their lordships' house.
The Earl of DERBY did not propose to notice anything
that fell from the noble duke, who had, however, permitted
to leak out the important secret that the number of foreign
troops which the Government meant to employ was 10,000
or 15,000 • but what, he wanted to correct was the
erroneous statement of the noble duke with respect to his
noble and gallant friend the Duke of Richmond, who was
not purposely absent, but had, in accordance with what
he had stated on the previous occasion, gone down to com-
mand his regiment. (Hear, hear.)
Their lordships then divided, when there appeared, for
going into committee on the bill—
Content .. 55
Non-content
Majority for going into committee — 12
Their lordships then went into committee on the bill.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE, in reply to a question of
Lord Derby, said the Government did not propose to place
any restriction on the employment of foreigners other than
that which the House of Commons might impose in the
granting of supplies—that was to say, the Government did
not propose to fix any particular number. He hoped the
house would allow the bill to pass through committee, so
that it might be passed before the Christmas holidays.
The Government proposed to take the third reading a the
bill on Monday next.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH was understood to ob-
ject to the course proposed by the Duke of Newcastle.
The bill then passed through committee.
Their lordships adjourned at haif-past nine o'clock till
to-morrow (this day) at two o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PETITIONS.

Mr. THORNLEY presented a petition from Black-
burn, praying for an alteration in the Sale of Beer Act.
Sir J. JOHNSTONE presented a petition from Scar-
borough against any alteration in the system of licensing
public-houses.