The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-05 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 5, 1853,

various reforms in the universities. I will not state any
particular scheme which it is the intention of the Govern-
ment to adopt. On the contrary, her Majesty's Government
are of opinion that they would not fulfil their duty in the
best manner. if they proposed any particular scheme for the
adoption of the house until the matter had been much more
maturely considered, and until the universities had had
the opportunity of giving their suggestions and their ob-
servations, and adopting such measures as they may think
it desirable to adopt on the subject of the changes sug-
gested. Speaking, however, of the University of Oxford,
there are in the first place some points upon which the
commissioners have touched, with respect to which I think
it is but fair that I should state what ate the views of her
Majesty's Government. The first subject with reference
to Oxford, and which is of the highest importance, is the
constitution of the government of the university itself.
(Hear, hear.) We are of opinion that very considerable
change is required in the constitution of that university.
(Hear,' hear.) We think it desirable that there should
exist a greater power of introducing into the governing
body of the university persons who, in the station of pro-
fessors, are engaged in teaching in the university, and into
the several colleges those who are engaged in teaching in
those colleges. What should be the particular form of
that governing body is a matter upon which, as I have in-
timated, we are not yet prepared to decide. What we
say is, that it is a subject to which we shall look, to which
our attention will be directed, and upon which we shall be
ready to receive any suggestion which may come from the
university itself. But if these suggestions either do not
come, or if they should fail to meet what we think the cir-
cumstances of the case require, it will then be necessary to
come to Parliament and submit to it proposals of our own
on the subject. (Hear, hear.) There is another matter
upon which our opinion is no less decided with respect to
the principle, and that it, a more full and free admission
to the teaching of the university. My belief is that these
universities were intended, and ought to be treated, as in-
stitutions for the benefit of the country, and that their ob-
jects ought to bo fulfilled more completely than they have
been of late years. For this purpose I believe it will be
necessary that there should be a power of admission, and
of attending the teaching of the university, and of acquir-
ing those privileges by means other than those of belong-
ing to, or residing in, colleges. (Hear, hear.) Whether
the recommendations of the commission on the University
of Oxford, or the different recommendations of the com-
mission on the University of Cambridge, should be taken
on the subject, I will not now pretend to decide. Any
change which shall effect the object, and effect it without
endangering the discipline of the university—because that
point must be kept carefully in mind—will be favourably
considered by us, and will be one which we shall be ready
to adopt. (Hear, hear.) Another subject in connection
with the present state of the University of Oxford is the
amount of restriction which is placed upon the attainment
of fellowships and emoluments in the university. (Hear.)
Many of those restrictions, it is true, claim for their origin
the statutes of the university, or the wills of the founders,
but we have to consider that if these statutes and these
will; were to be literally obeyed, we should have, not the
present state of the universities, but a state very much
different, and one which it would be impossible to maintain.
I will not upon this point express any opinion as to the re-
commendations of the commissioners—whether all restric-
tions as to place of birth, or the county to which the persons
belong, should be abolished, or whether persons belonging
to that locality cceteris paribus should have the advantage
—all I say is that merit, industry, study, and ability ought
to have their due reward. (Hear, hear.) I may say fur-
ther, in respect to another topic of great importance that
a greater part of the incomes and revenues of the colleges
should be devoted to purposes of instruction, such as to
giving additional incomes to professors, or applied in other
modes most conducive to giving instruction in the univer-
sities. No doubt, we must keep in mind on this subject,
as in other trusts, the purposes for which they were created,
At the same time, I do not think it possible to lose sight
of the times in which many of those foundations were
made, and the views entertained by those who founded
them—views which were entertained naturally and pro-
perly according to the belief of the times, and, perhaps,
according to the circumstances of the times, but which no
longer apply to the present period. For instance, it was
thought at one time that it was most desirable that a num-
ber of studious men, perhaps of the ecclesiastical profes-
sion, should devote their time to study and to prayer, and
that they should remain in seclusion from the rest of the
world. Far be it from me to state that those who devoted
their means and their estate to that purpose took a mis-
taken view of the benefits which might thereby be ob-
tained. I believe that at a time when no man's house was
safe, when armed knights were frequenting lanes and val-
leys to save the peace of the country, and there was no se-
curity for life or property, the sacred character given to
theseinstitutions enabled the men thus secluded to pre-
serve the works of learning; it enabled them to preserve
those great classical works which at the time of the revi-
val of letters were found in the monasteries and convents,
and which, amid the din of arms and amid a state of ig-
norance which might have led to barbarism, yet kept alive
that sacred flame rrom which we have derived our civilisa

tion. Far be it from me, therefore, to say that they were
short-sighted, and still less to say they were not benevo-
lent. But the circumstances of the present day are utterly
altered in that respect ; and those same men who, ani-
mated by the love of knowledge, made those foundations,
would probably, if they lived in these times, be the first
to say that instruction of another kind ought to be given.
(Hear, hear.) There is another view, likewise, which they
might; have entertained with regard to the localities to
which they confined their endowments. It might very
well be that a man of property, seeing that his county was
in a state of ignorance, and entirely deprived of the light
of letters and science, might have thought that if he found-
ed in the University of Oxford or in the University of
Cambridge a fellowship devoted to the inhabitants of that
county, it would turn their minds to the acquisition of
knowledge, and thereby he might increase the general cul-
tivation, and so civilise the county. I do not say that was
not a wise view ; but what I say is, that with our present
means of communications and with the present circulation
of knowledge through the country, a reservation which might
be wise at the commencement would be exceedingly unwise
at the present moment. (Hear.) These, then, are four of
the objects which we shall endeavour to keep in view with
regard to the University of Oxford :—First, the improve-
ment of the governing power or body ; another, a larger
admission of students without belonging to a particular
college ; third, the removal or modification of the restric-
tions which now exist in regard to the attainment of the
rewards and honours of the university to a particular county
or locality; and fourth, the application of some part of the
endowments and property of the colleges to tue purpose of
instruction in the university, which are now not given for
any purposes of instruction whatever. Another object
which I think we should have in view is, that when fellow
ships are attained by students, the distinction should not
be held for life, but only for a certain period. Thus we
shall have a constant stimulus to and a constant system of
promotion. (Hear.) Sir, I will not go into the recom-
mendations that have been made by the commissioners ap-
pointed for the University of Cambridge. They recom-
mend, in a similar spirit, that those restrictions which I
have mentioned should no longer exist, but they state that
the university itself is continually, from time to time,
adapting its institutions to the present state of knowledge
and the present state of the country, and they expect that
further improvements will be made in the same direction.
They say that they think it would be a great misfortune if
the University of Cambridge should in any respect fall
short of that which is required from it by. the most en-
lightened view of the public interests, and the greatest ad-
vantage of the pecple of this country. At the same time,
with a natural pride in the university to which they be-
long, they say they are happy to think such has been the
case, and they further think that it will continue to be the
case hereafter; at the same time they state their firm be-
lief that the interposition of Parliament will be required in
order to enable the University of Cambridge to make all
those reforms and improvements which, in their opinion,
ought to be made. (Hear.) Now, sir, may I venture to
say that the persons whom I had the honour of advising
the Crown to appoint to the commissions of Oxford and
Cambridge were men of very great distinction;, they were
men who themselves had attended those universities—men
who had attained to the greatest honours, some of them in
science and others in classical learning ; and that they ap-
proached the subject with that reverence for those great
institutions which such men were sure to feel ? When,
therefore, such men as these advise such extensive altera-
tions, and accompany them with such observations, I think
it is the part of Parliament, without reserve, and waving
every objection, to consider their different proposals, and
to legislate for the improvement tif the Universities of Ox-
ford and Cambridge. (Hear.) I trust I have made it clear
to the house that we do not propose at the present time, or
without giving full means to the universities of considering
all that we ought to do, to introduce any bill to Parliament
on these subjects. At the same time we shall keep in view
these objects which we think essential. (Hear, hear.) If
the universities adopt them, and carry them into effect as
far as they can, and apply to Parliament for powers to
carry them out still further, we shall be happy to see them
arrive at that consummation ; but if they should not
do so, if there should be persons who are still deterred by
their prejudices from making any, even the most useful
not to hesitate, but to bring in Bud; measures as we may
think absolutely necessary. (Hear, hear.) Now sir,
having ventured to trouble the house upon this important
subject, I feel that, wide as the field is which I have had to
go ove., it has been quite impossible for me to give an ade-
quate notion to the house, either of the present state of
these questions, or of the measures which the Government
mean to propose. (Hear, hear.) But I have a firm belief
that the people of this country, who themselves have
founded these institutions—that the people of this country
who, in the course of the last half century have carried
day schools and the instruction of the poorer classes to
such an extent as I have shown—will supply any inade-
quacy which I may have shown, and will even supply any
defects they may find in our legislation. I feel that, with
regard to the great and most important subjects, that
will happen which we have seen happen in the material
world and in physical science. We have seen that which
beggars have passed unnoticed, and which was disregarded
converted into the means of giving brilliant light in our
streets and our houses. We have seen those powers of
nature which were usually considered noxious and destruc-
tive employed to carry to distant regions in a few minutes
intelligence which a century ago would require weeks, and
even months, to convey. We have seen other wonders of
physical science and physical study astonish, almost every
year, the generations in which we have lived. I feel per-
suaded that whatever may be the state of society in this
country at present, that there is a power at work which
will draw up from the dregs and the destructive part of
that society the means of establishing religion and mo-
rality upon a still firmer basis, and which will make reli-
gion and morality the crown of our social institutions.
(Hear, hear.) I feel, then, that this is even a nobler task,
that it is even a still greater achievement than those won-
ders which the acquisitions of science have enabled us to
effect. (Hear, hear.) Imploring, then, this house to pay
the utmost attention to all these subjects, to take no word
of mine as sufficient for the measures that we have to pro-
pose, but begging them to keep in view these great objects
upon which the future happiness and welfare of this coun-
try must depend, I shall conclude by asking for leave to
bring in a bill to improve and extend the education of the
people in England and Wales. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUAIE contended that secular education was the
only system of education which could be generally accepta-
ble in this country, and that the noble lord's plan would
be a failure if he intended to combine with it the teaching
of religion. The principle cf the division of labour should
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attended school he recollected that no distinctions were
made. There were as many sects then as there were now,
and the schoolmaster taught them all alike. No religion
was taught except just thosepoints to which nobody could
object ; the Catechism was the subject of instruction- on
Saturdays. That system worked well, but he was sure
that if the noble lord adhered to his principle there would
be no chance of improvement. At the some time, he was
greatly obliged to the noble lordfor haying introduced the ,

• subject. Many people thought, as he did, that he would
• make but little progress, still he had grappled with the
question and deserved credit for it. But he should have
gone further, and have stated the means by which he pro-
posed to bring all people to agree on the subject. That was
the whole difficulty of the case, and he qad left it as he
found it. Schools might be increased, the superintendence
• extended, and more money granted. By such means the
noble lord might extend education in some degree, but so
• long as he mixed up the religious part of it, which ought to
be the duty of the clergyman, with the secular part, which
) ought to be the duty of the schoolmaster, he never could
produce the general benefit which he intended. lie (Mr.
Hume) would rate every parish and every acre of land in
the country for the instruction of the people in their moral
and social duties ; but the teaching of peculiar religious
tenets was not a subject for which a tax ought to be levied.
He approved of the observations of the noble lord concern-
ing small educational charities ; but he advised him that
half measures—doing a little in one town and a little in
another—would not do. Let all these institutions be made
useful for their purpose. (Hear, hear.) He would not fur-
ther discuss the question, but when the bill was actually
before the house he should take an opportunity of pointing
out some of its defects. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GIBSON said it would be premature to offer an
opinion upon the plan propounded by the noble lord until
the bill itself was on the table, and the house had had an
opportunity of considering its provisions. But inasmuch
as ho (Mr. Gibson) was with other members engaged in an
inquiry before a committee into the practicability of sup-
porting schools in towns governed by municipal corpora-
tions by means of rates, such schools to be of a denomina-
tional character, he wished, with all respect, the Govern-
ment had delayed legislation upon this particular branch
of the subject until they had the report of the committee.
(Hear, hear.) Ho was himself so anxious that something
should be done for the education of the people that he
should be backward in throwing obstacles in the way of
any plan : nevertheless, ho doubted exceedingly whether
they could succeed in this attempt to transfer the duties of
the clergy of various persuasions to the schoolmaster.
(Hear, hear, hear.) He very much doubted whether two-
thirds of any town council could be got to agree to teach
all forms of religion in their respective boroughs, and to
support such religious teaching by public rates. (Hear,
hear, hear.) He very much doubted whether they would
get town councils to agree to train up children in the Ro-
man Catholic religion, in the Jewish religion, and in
various forms of Christianity. He feared that in making
such a proposition they were embarking in difficulties
which he saw no means of overcoming. At this prelimi-
minary stage he would not detain the house by any general
remarks on the subject of education ; but, as a member of
the Church of England, he thought there was one import-
ant omission in the noble lord's speech. The noble lord
had not informed the house what had become of the mi-
nute of Privy Council of June 12, 1852, the principle of
which was to transfer from laymen of the Church the ma-
nagement of Church schools, in moral and religious mat-
ters, to the clergy of the diocese. The Government of
which the noble lord was a member in 1836 distinguished
themselves greatly, and made a great step in advance, by
enabling the laymen of the Church to manage Church
schools in conjunction with the clergy, and it was a retro-
grade step on the part of the Government of Lord Derby to
undo the decision of Parliament in former times to give
something like exclusive jurisdiction to the clergy. He
therefore wished to ask the noble lord whether that mi-
nute of council had been rescinded which enabled public
money to be given to Church schools in cases where the
clergyman had the power of dismissing the schoolmaster on
other than religious grounds, in cases in which the clergy-
man had the power of deciding what books should be used
upon other than religious grounds, and in those cases
which were provided under the new form of trust-deed
that had been allowed, to be introduced for the first time
by the late Government. The question was one of vital
consequence. Although it might not affect existing schools
it involved a great principle—the principle of laymen su-
perintending the education of the young ; and he could
never, as a Churchman, consent to go back one iota to
transfer from lay committees of management any power
they had hitherto enjoyed to the sole use of the clergy.
Lord Derby said the minute would not be acted upon until
Parliament had consented to the principle ; now, as the
subject of education was before the house, a fitting oppor-
tunity had arisen of asking her Majesty's Government what
course they were prepared to take in respect to that mi-
nute? (Hear.)

Lord J. RUSSELL—I will answer at once the question
of the right hon. gentleman. The committee of council
have considered the minute to which my right hon. friend
refers. We do not propose to enforce that minute. It will
bo cancelled ; and we propose that by another minute,
power shall be given to the clergyman to appeal to the
Lord President of the Council and the bishop of the dio-
cese, in cases of a schoolmaster of immoral conduct and im-
moral habits. It is certainly possible, in some cases, that
a schoolmaster of immoral conduct and immoral habits
might be screened by the partiality and indulgence of the
lay committee. In such a case we propose not, as under
the minute to which my right hon. friend refers, an appeal
to the bishop, but an appeal to the President of the Coun-
cil and the bishop of the diocese, who shall appoint an in-
spector and the incumbent to make an investigation.
Mr. W. J. FOX was very glad to find that the noble
lord recognised the principle of an educational rate, as he
thought that a most important step in the progress of in-
struction. (Hear, hear.) He never could comprehend the
objections to the State interfering to secure the rights of
children and their own rights. The State had a right to
expect that society should not have turned upon it from
time to time large bodies of uninstructed and almost un-
civilised beings, ripe for immorality and crime ; and chil-
dren, because of the neglect or loss of parents, ought not
to be deprived of that training of their faculties which
every human being had a right to enjoy. (Hear.) Much,
however, of the virtue of a rate for education depended
upon its being generally levied and distributed according
to recognised and impartial principles. Unless that were
the case, they would be introducing into borough the
struggles which prevailed among religious societies and
educational associations—they would be adding another
item to that great mass of antagonism which caused so
much disturbance and confusion in our social system—
they would be throwing down the prize of public money
in boroughs for different sects and congregations, for dif-
ferent churches and different bodies to contend for, as they
would assuredly contend, and that, too, in a manner which
would desecrate education by mixing up with it topics of
political strife. (Hear, bear.) Therefore, any partial
levying of the rate would be vory inexpedient. The noble

loril give as a reason for retaining this mixed system of
payments by children, benevolent contributions, and
public support, amongst other reasons, the fact that nearly
half a million of money was now contributed towards the
schools by the children's pence; but if this contribution,
large as it might appear, were closely examined, he thought
some very material reduction must be made from it. It
was called children's pence, but it must not be understood
the sum of a penny was paid by each child, because very
many paid three, and four, and even six times that
amount—indeed, such a payment as would entitle them
to instruction at a private school. (Hear, hear.) He
believed the way to make grants most conducive to the
the increase of education, was to let the amount of remune-
ration be governed, not by the number of children, but by
the attainments they acquired ; to institute something like
an inquiry, by the inspectors, into what had actually been
taught, and to apportion the amount of money aid accord-
ing to the amount of instruction actually given, and the
amount of education realised in the childrenof each school.
This would be a stimulus which would operate very
strongly in raising the character of education ; and an-
other might be added, of conferring the suffrage and the
rights of political citizenship upon those who attained to
a certain amount of erudition. Another matter to be con-
sidered was the emoluments of the schoolmasters, which at
preient were so inadequate that no man of educated mind
and possessed of the necessary habits and qulifications for
instructing children would undertake the office. They
ought to be rplaced in a better position, not only as re-
garded revenue, but as regarded independence—for they
were too often placed under the control of persons who
were by no means able either to guide their instructions
or correct their errors. (Hear, hear.) He, ought perhaps,
to apologise to the house for having gone into such a mi-
nute criticism upon a measure which had only that even-
ing been brought under their notice ; but his excuse was,
that the topic was one in which a deep interest was felt
throughout the country. (Hear, hear.) He could not but
hope, that as the discussion proceeded the scheme would
be enlarged, so as at length to become really comprehen-
sive and worthy of the name of " national ;" and certainly
he was disposed to believe that the recognition of a rate by
the noble lord had laid the foundation of an edifice which
would not only do honour to his own name, but redound
to the happiness and glory of the country. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. E. BALL could not but consider it as a subject for
great gladness and joy on the part of the country that no
less a sum than 500,0001. was annually contributed in pence
by the poor towards the education of their children. Ho
wished to know what the hon. members for Montrose and
Manchester meant when they talked of excluding religion
from the schools? If they meant that they would not
permit the Bible to be introduced into the schools, he
could only wi tam+ a. would do everythinc, he could to
oppose their views ; for he could not believe that any sys-
tem of education could be considered a national benefit
which excluded the Bible. He had no desire to enforce
sectarian religion upon any one, but he must insist upon
the reading of the word of God. (Hear, hear.) He hoped
therefore that the Government would never give their as-
sent, much less their authority and sanction, to any system
of education which excluded the word of God. (Hear,
hear.)
Sir IL INGLIS said that, while he was not usually
happy enough to be able to agree with the hon. membea
for the city of Manchester, he was bound to say that on
one point, at least, they approached to something like an
agreement on the present occasion, and that was, that it
would be impossible to establish a system of united secular
and religious education by means of a school-rate in any
corporate town whatever. Certainly, the right hon gen-
tleman's own city of Manchester would not support a rate
for such a combined system. (Hear, hear.) With regard
to the proposals which the noble lord had brought under
their notice that evening, he would only then say that he
saw great difficulties in the way of their adoption, and
that lie hoped to be permitted at the proposed time to
state his objections in full. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. MANNERS said that, when the right hon.
gentleman the member for Manchester asked the noble
lord whether the Government intended to cancel the
minute of Council of the 12th of June last, he seemed to
labour under the misapprehension that that minute had
had the effect of placing the Church of England schools
under the sole control of the clergymen of the parish ; and
the noble lord, in answering the question, said nothing to
remove that misapprehension, but, on the contrary,. seemed
to give currency to that erroneous belief. The right hon.
gentleman had entirely mistaken the object and intention
of that minute. Its sole object was to remedy what the
then Government believed to be a violation of the right of
conscience. (Hear, hear.). Before sitting down he wished
to ask the noble lord, or, in his absence, the Chancellor of
the Exchequer—first, whether it was the intention of the
Government to bring into operation their minute cancel-
ling the minute of the 12th of June last, before submitting
it with their other minutes to the consideration of the
house, and before it should have received that discussion
which its importance merited ? Second whether the bill
which it was intended to introduce was to be restricted to
England and Wales, or whether it was to be extended to
Scotland ; and, if so, whether the free schools, or ragged
schools as they were called in Scotland, would be enabled
to participate in the benefits of the increased grant ? And,
third, whether—with reference to that part of the scheme
which was to give power to the Committee of Privy
Council to make alterations in cases where the trustees did
not agree with them—it was intended to brills, in a sepa-
rate bill for each separate case in which the' committee
proposed a variation in a particular...trust, or whether it
was intended at the end of every session, or at some other
stated period, to introduce a general measure sanctioning
all the particular alterations of the Committee of Council ?
In conclusion, he begged to say for himself, that he fully
agreed in the wisdom and justice of the course which was
taken by Lord Derby's Gove,rnment last year on this sub-
ject, and that he was perfectly ready to vindicate the

minute which it was now proposed to cancel against all
the imputations which had been brouglit against it. (Hear,
hear.)

Mr. PHINN regretted the timid and hesitating tone of
some portions of the noble lord's speech, and expressed his
belief that, when the measure came to be placed before the
public, the people would be found outrunning the Govern-
ment, and showing that they were far in advance of them
on the subject. (Hear, hear.) The question naturally di-
vided itself into two heads—upon one of which alone the
noble lord had touched on that occasion—upon the other,
and that the most difficult point, the noble lord had been
entirely silent. With respect to those who were willing to
participate in the benefits of education, there could be little
difficulty; but there was another class to which he begged
to invite the attention of the house and the Government,
and that was the class who did not want to participate in
those benefits, and with respect to whom it was worthy of
consideration whether some compulsory education should
not be provided. (Hear, hear.) It must be familiar to all
who were engaged in the administration of criminal justice
whether as advocates or judges, in both of which capacities
however humbly, ho was himself engaged, that there was
growing up, in the midst of our civilisation, a class of peo-
ple more like wild beasts than men, a class almost savage
in their habits, and he might say, in almost every respect,
degraded to the rank of savan•es by their ignorance of social
religious, and intellectual knowledge ; and if the Govern-
ment were not prepared to apply some strong measure to
this state of things the end would be—though it might not
be in our time—that there would be a frightful disorgani-
sation of society. (Hear, hoar.) No one indeed could ad-
vert to the vast number of persons roaming about our
streets without any other means of support than that of
preying on their fellow-subjects without seeing that their
case presented a frightful question. He, for one, would
be the last to propose that the Legislature should med-
dle unnecessarily with the independence of the subject,
but if they had a right to say to tho owners of pro-
perty that they were not entitled to hold that
property without maintaining those who were unable
to maintain themselves, he held that they had equally
a right to say that they were not entitled to hold
that property without attempting to bring to the know-
ledge of the Gospel, and of their social and moral relations,
those who were not provided for by their parents or
friends. Ho hoped, therefore, that the Government—and
if not the Government, some old and experienced member
of the house—would be prepared to invite the attention of
house to this great question ; and he felt sure that, how-
ever stringent the measure that might be proposed, and
whatever expense it might involve, the people generally
would approve of it, and bo ready to make the greatest
sacrifices in its support ; for, looking at it in a mere pecu-
niary point of view, he believed it would be found amply
to repay the expenditure. (Hear, hear.) He hoped that,
if not this year or the next, at,an early period, the noble
lord would be able to present to the country a great, sound,
and comprehensive system of national education, which
would be the most enduring monument of his name, be-
cause exceeding in its ultimate results those political advan-
tages which he had been in instrumental in bestowing upon
the nation.
Mr. WIGRAM observed, that it appeared to him that
the general measure of education proposed by the noble
lord well deserved the consideration and favour of the
house, because he understood that the purpose of the noble
lord really was to aim at extending a system which had
been already tried in the country, and which had produced
very great and admirable results. (Hear, hear.) Those
results had been attained consistently with the maintenance
of peace and goodwill among all classes, and any measure
which aimed at extending such a system would certainly
meet with his support.

Mr. BLACKEtt said there was only one point to which
he wished to advert, and he must say he regretted that the
noble lord did not allude to a university which wanted as
much reform as Oxford or Cambridge—he meant the Uni-
versity of Durham. He believed that institution had suc-
ceeded in a very few years in reaching the same perfection
of mismanagement as Oxford and Cambridge. They all
knew that it was, conducted on the purely ecclesiastical
system ; that the professorial teaching had fallen into dis-
use, and that scientific lectures were as badly attended as
in either of the two universities. This was the more
severely felt in the part of the country with which he was
connected, because it was expected that, being in the neigh-
bourhood of the collieries, it would afford a school for
mining and engineering purposes. He understood the
noble lord to state that he would not bring forward any
measure on the subject this year ; and recollecting that
there was a passage in the Queen's Speech upon education,
and that the general, opinion was that some enabling act
would have been brought in by Lord Derby's Government,
he regretted to find that all hopes of improvement from
legislation were further removed than before. At' the
same time he must offer his humble tribute of admiration
at the views expressed by the noble lord with reference to
independent students the extension of the professorial
system, and the making of intellectual merit the test of
success for all classes. He was very glad to hear this from
the noble lord, because, in 1850, the right honourable gen-
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer used language on
this subject, which no doubt had some influence upon the
line of conduct pursued by the University of Oxford in re-
ference to the royal commission. He agreed, however, with
his hon. and learned friend the member for Bath, when he
said that the noble lord was more timid than his own com-
missioners. Ho understood the noble loid meant to give the
universities more time, and if they did not act, then he
would come to Parliament for powers to compel them to do
what was proper. But time was the very thing which
the Oxford Conservatives wanted to gain, but nothing
would induce him to grant it, because he was convinced
that they would make as bad a use of it as they did be-
fore. This demand for time was not new. In 1834 or
1835, when Lord Radnor brought the question before the
House of Lords, the late Duke of Wellington said that the
University of Oxford had entered upon the consideration
of its statutes, and that the colleges were about to do the
same, but from that time to the present no step had been
taken by any Oxford college. The hon. baronet, who was
the senior representative of the University of Oxford, ex-
pressed great alarm at what the noble lord had said he
would do if the university did not act, but the hon. bart.'s
apprehensions were unfounded, for if the noble lord did
not strike while the iron was hot, all internal dissensions
would be appeased, and Oxford would again present the
same unbroken front to improvement which it had always
done. He would ask the noble lord whether the
commissioners approved of this delay. He (Mr.
Blackett) had no authority to speak their senti-
ments, but the spoke of the ' immediate" necessity of
opening the scholarships, and of abrogating the oaths to
observe the statutes. The house was aware that the in-
quiries of the commissioners were met by the reply that
the oaths to observe the statutes stood in the way of an
answer being given by the fellows to the request made to
them in the name of her Majesty. In the course of every
year there were thirty or forty fellowships and other offices
of emolument within the university given away, and upon
admission to which this oath of a perpetual observance of
the statutes was taken. Every year, therefore, added a
fresh crop of persons, who were ready to plead that oath
as a bar to any inquiry. The Vice-Chancellor had refused
to give any information to the commissioners, and only
colleges and three halls had communicated informa-
tion to the commissioners. The commissioners had, how-
ever, reported, and when it was known that an appeal was
to be made by the Ministers of the Crown to the autho-
rity of Parliament, he thought it was the duty of the
University of Oxford to abstain from taking any steps
which were formally condemned by the commission. One
of the recommendations of the c(emtnission was that the
revenues of the university should not be applied to objects
that were not academical, yet the university, although it
had given 1,0001. last year to the diocesan training school,
and had thereby mortgaged the surplus revenue of the cur-
rent year, the university thought proper to give 5001.
towards the testimonial to the late Duke of Wellington.
He perfectly agreed with the noble lord that the most
valuable of the recommendations of the commissioners was
the extension of the university system to students without
exacting from them admission to the several colleges, the
main advantage of which would be that it would break the
neck of the ecclesiastical and the tutorial system. The
noble lord was probably aware that the Liberal-Conserva-
in oppo-
sitionandti v Liberal-Conserva-
tive portion
o the of the
recommendations university h
oa
fd o
ther g a n i se d itselfcommissioners,
on this last head the tutors' association had put forward a
separate scheme of its own. It had assented to other por-
tions of the scheme, such as the erection of independent
halls under private masters of arts, but they steadily re-
fused any countenance to the project of students uncon-
nected with colleges. This, he thought, was a fair speci-
men of the way in which the University of Oxford would
emasculate and temper down the recommendations of the
commission. In conclusion, he could not help lamenting
that the main obstacle to efficient university reform was a
Coalition Cabinet:
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not rise
to go into the various points which had been raised inci-
dentally in this discussion, or to follow the hon. gentleman
who had just sat down through the particulars of his at-
tack upon the University of Oxford, and upon members of
that university, who, in his (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer's) opinion, deserved the highest honour—(hear)—
and had taken part not now only in the cause of university
reform—(hear)—but he wished to answer the questions of
his noble friend (Lord J. Manners), and to notice,, one or
two of the points which had been referred to. The noble
lord had asked whether there would be any objection to
lay upon the table the minute of Privy Council which it
was intended to substitute for that of June the 12th, 1852
There would bo no objection whatever to the immediate
production of that minute. (Hear.) But the noble lord
did not give a correct description of the minute of Juno,
1852, when he said that the promoters of Church of Eng-
land schools had laboured under a grievance in not being
allowed to constitute their trusts in the manner agreeable
to their own convictions, while a liberty of that kind was
gives to the founders of Roman Catholic schools. .The
minute of June, 1852, did not say that the founders of
Church of England schools should be at' liberty to consti-
tute their trusts in the manner they thought fit. The ob-
ject of that minute, if it had ono, and no doubt it had a
rational object, was to prevent tiro retention, through thtruroustogthroughlotchae
nobled
lord
local
misunderstanding, or undue influence or intrigue, of im-
moral or improper persons in'Aheowffiilicechhad now been
adopted of schoolmaster ;
anti,as
sfariwouldu t
w asothat
be b
fully secured. But as to the noble
object y
the
minute
lord'a construction of the minute of June,
see
1852, ho
could not have had the minute in his recollection when he
referred to it as giving to the promoters of Church
of England schools a liberty which it would
be very
unreasonable in them to claim and very improper in any
Government to give. (Hear, hear.)The
whether Scotland was included in the noble -lord asked
whether which had that
evening been announced. That
ed to Scotland ; the intentionsplan in no respect extend-
of the Government with
respect to Scotland, when theyshould matured, would
be explained upon a distinct
lord also asked whether it The noble
occasion. (Hear.)
was intended by the bill for the
regulation of charitable trusts to provide that every separ-
ate scheme of reform Which might framed under the
provisions of that bill should b
be madeethe'subject of a se-
parate act of Parliament. Of course, with regard to the
precise frame of the hill,it would
be better that the noble
lord should wait for the bill than trust to a general descrip-
tion of it; but what was intended was to adopt a provision
somewhat similar to that of the Enclosure Act. It would
be necessary to come to Parliament for schemes of reform
in the case of charities whore the trustees did not give their
consent, but it would nor bo necessary to come for a separ-
ate act in each case; it might be found practicable to com-
bine a number in a single act, just as now a number of
schemes of enclosure might be combined in one act of Par-
liament. (Hear, hear.) The lion. member for Bath (Mr.
Phinn) referred to the great schools of this country, and
thought they ought to have been comprised, in the state-
ment which had been made to the house. When the
Attorney-General of the late Government (Sir F. Thesi-
ger) introduced a bill last year for the regulation
of charitable trusts. it would have admitted an inquiry
into the great schools and the manner in which they
managed their funds ; and he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) believed those great schools would be included
within the scope of the bill which it was now indended to
introduce into the House of Lords for the regulation of
charitable trusts, and it would be premature to enter
upon the subject on this occasion. It was quite true that
those schools cliacharged an office preliminary m a great

degree to the universities, and it seemed only in the na.
tural order of things that the measures of reform to be
adopted in the universities should take their ultimate
shape before Parliament considered the measures which it
might be right to adopt with respect to the great schools.
(Hear. hear.) A great deal had been said upon the sub-
ject of the universities, and the hon. member for Caw
bridge (Mr. Wigram) had spoken upon the subject in
conciliatory tone,—a tons indicating readiness to give fair
consideration to proposals of improvement—(hear, hear)--•
which was the best adapted both to promote beneficial
change, and to resist dangerous and mischievous alteration.
(Hear, With respect to the statement of the noble
lord (Lord J. Russell), it required no defence and no eluei•
dation from him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer).
Whether it was in contrast with what he had said there or
or elsewhere, as has been stated by the hon. gentleman
who had just sat down was a subject upon which he should
leave that hon. gentleman to speculate to his own content,
and satisfaction. To the principles which had been laid
down by the noble lord he (the Chancellor of the Exche'
quer) adhered, as he always had. He held it to be the;
duty of the Legislature to seek that the great endowmentsl
and resources with which -the universities had been pre' vided should be made available for the ends and pur poses for which they existed ; and if there were portions
of those endowments which
at preaent lay dormant and iu abeyance, and were not so made available, it waso ,
matter essential to the welfare of those universities
themselves that their application should be so directed
that they might accomplish the ends for which they
were appointed. (Hear, hear.) If he at ail refer
red to the speech of the bon. member who had just
sat down, he must say it appeared to him, with great
deference and submission to that hon. member, a speech
greatly tending to stop the progress of university reform.
He could not conceive a course more unwise, if the hon.
member was in earnest—as doubtless he was—in desiring
many beneficial changes in the universities, than that which
the hon. member had taken. He had not' stopped short of
imputing a general insincerity to the professions made
among the university residents ; he said they were all
asleep till the report, though he incidentally stated in
another part of his speech that a great and extensive chap.;
had been adopted by the university in the whole system change
study and examination just before the commission was ap'
pointed [Mr. Blackett.—" I distinguished between the
university and the colleges."] He (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) had not heard that ; but, the university and
the colleges being composed at present of the same persons,
it was scarcely possible that a spirit of reform should pro'
vail in the one, and that in the other the same p NO°
adopted reforming measures should be liable to the veil
severe censures which the hon. member had cast upon theta,
(Hear.) But, be that as it might, the hon. member AP:
peered to be of opinion that it was not only desirable ths'
changes should be made in the universities, but that they
should be made by extraneous authority ; for he said that
the noble lord was committing a fatal error in giving theta
time. Why, the commissioners, who were not deficient is
zeal and diligence took two years to frame their report, and very wisely. Did the hon. member think, in reference to
bodies of this kind, which had discharged the most import'
ant functions for centuries, and which enjoyed at this ine'
ment —he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would venture
to soy—the confidence and respect of the country—(hear)--,
as bodies of men ardently engaged in the promotion of most
useful labours—(hear)—did the hon. member think it
was desirable entirely to override the free and independent
action of those bodies ? Their free and independent action
was essentially connected with the attainment of the en€ls
for which they existed. (Hear.) If they were deprived O'
that free and independent action, it might be necessary fot
them to interfere—he did not say such circumstances might
not arise, but it would be a great misfortune ; it was of
importance that improvement should be introduced o`, their own free choice. (Hear.) An hon. member said"
" I hope you do not mean to hold out a threat to the up!'
versitics that you will interfere if they do not do so-and'
so." It was anything but desirable to hold out threats el
an hon. gentleman had done, it produced a strong spirit 0
reaction. At the same time it was too much to allege ths'
they or any incorporation was in such a sense and so able
lutely master of its endowments, that Parliament had v`;
right of supervision whatever ; it was surely the duty °`
Parliament, on sufficient cause shown, to interpose and re;
gulate those endowments for a public purpose. (Heat
But the rational course was to give fair and full time',
these bodies. They were not bodies that had been asleep'
they had been improving their systems. No doubt the
was much to be done. Was there not much to be dene
in the House of Commons ? (Hear, hear.) Was theta
not much to be done in the way of reform and improilri
ment ? (Hear. hear.) But did it follow that the‘
had been doing nothing? (Hear, hear.) Just so vri
these ancient and complicated foundations, with gree_,
difficulties standing in the way of reform ; he must lcv:i
test against the imputations which had been thrown e,,
by the hon. member against those who were conductive
education there, and warn the house against his doctrine'
" Do not give them time ; sweep away what you want I
see removed." These were not questions that would adnt
of that rude treatment. (Hear, hear.) If you wanted
attain your end, you must proceed regularly and in order'
and, while vindicating the supremacy of Parliament, Ye,
must give these parties the opportunity of introduclei
changes, unless you had reason to believe they would ve,,,
be introduced by their free action. (Hear, hear.) The b(),P,
trreacotimonmeonf;
ford should have acted upon the recommendation of
.„
member said it would have been but reasonable that Of'
on
wthheethader thatinis property. It was
reasonable one; but what a doctrine to sof'
tion was a
1
,14
commissioners withonree
that because a commission of inquiry had been appoinvepa
qgaurdestito
when that commission had reported the body was t°,o
bound to act upon the.principles the commission had
,;.1.0-
down ! He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) mustj r
test against that, as a doctrine adverse to liberty. (P-', ste' hear.) He would say, it was the business of aorpervd
bodies to submit themselves to their view of reason, f`
not to the view of the hon. member, or of himself. It Iv t
their duty to submit themselves to law, but it was nes,
their duty to submit to the opinions or views of coinivit3
i,,
sions of inquiry, unless they thought them to be right;
(Hear, hear.) He hoped the statements of his noble frie4e
with respect to the universities would be taken from
speech of the noble lord himself, and not from the cijo
structions put upon it by any member. (Hear, hear.) b
commissioners spoke of the introduction of students
01,
longing to the university, but not connected with the Cos
leges. They thought this desirable, if it could be ,
without relaxing or weakening the discipline of the
city. But this was a reservation of a most important 0 ~
,0
racter, and the question was in what mode and whet'.
this change could be made without weakening the d";t1)
hplaidnes.poHkeenrelgyritehttewdhthatathtehemhuosnt.
cgoennstilseleir gentleman
eßalaendkeu,viii
merited asperity—(hear, hear)—of a body of men of a mil
laborious laborious and meritorious character, who were eilgep-0(
honestly, industriously, and uprightly in the business
education. He trusted that the house would adhere 11)
the recommendation of his noble friend (Lord J. fluss ere
and give to the universities fair and full time for consi°
ing and recommending the measures best adapted tot ior
end in view, leavjng it to them, as to all corporate alo I
rities, to do their duty, if they would do it willingly,an
,d
if not, then reserving to that house the duty of avv-
under its authority. (Hear, hear.)
10 After a few words from Lord J. MANNERS and
BLACKETT in explanation,
Mr. PELLATT wished to bear testimony to the laboel;
of the persons engaged as Sunday-school teachers. TVea
schools had now been in existence for 70 years ; there vi it
no less than 2,000,000 scholars in them, who were
by 200,000 teachers. All these schools were maintain .
upon the voluntary principle, and all gave religious instill'
tion.

Leave was then given to bring in the bill.
• CLERGY RESERVES (CANADA) BILL. This bill, as amended, was considered.
Mr. HUME said that great objections were felt ollt.
doors to any portion of the religious instruction of iv
people of Canada being paid for by the State, and .0
trusted the Government would reconsider the alteratl
they had made in the bill.
The bill was ordered to be printed with the amendinev
and to be read a third time on Monday next.

PILOTAGE BILL,

Mr. CARDWELL moved that this bill be read a see°"'
ime.
Mr. HUME recommended that it should be referred „ 4
select committee up-stairs.
Mr. CARDWELL believed that the bill would be bell
ficial to the mercantile interest, and thought it could t
very well considered by the house itself. • Tea
After some discussion, the bill was read a second ti--
and ordered to be committed on Monday next.
PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR FRIDAY NEXT.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought it might be as well to stO
publicthe c course which
on Friday chit 1 -a proposedshextOn
t o take t
day
with
rtehgea rlr(iA;
hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer woo'.
eveningexp
explain theto move fora propositions
cof whichmittee heof had given
whole h
given noticeeus
et
consider the Consolidated Fund and the National p'',
Redemption Acts), and after that the Government pJ
posed to go into Committee of Supply and take the nag,'
laneons estimates.
The Copyholds Bill was read a second time.
The Now Forest Deer Remo-

ioval Act Amendment
and the Law of Evidence (Scotland) Bill passed throat
comThmeitOteaeth. s in Chancery Bill was read a third time 1)?
passed.
MERCHANT SHIFPING BILL.
of'
Mr. TURNER presented petitions from the nieliv-
aldermen, and burgesses of Liverpool, and from the troj,
tees of the Liverpool docks, under their corporate oc„.
against this bill, the 22nd clause of which would, the It 4
titioners believed, prejudice their interest in regard
tolls.
The bill was read a secondyoftiemEaeLaEnrCdbTuloryrdONtejure. d to be cod
mitLed on Monday next.
On the motion of Mr. S. SEYMER, the further etisPflo
sion of the writ
a quarter to 11 o'clock, adjour
was agr.eed to.
CANTERBURY.tftheei
Monday,
e'
until this day (Tuesday).
2nd
The day
house of M
then,a y next,
a t

„f
STATE OF TRADE.— The accounts of the state of
,-tradetre
in the manufactoring towns during the past week
generally satisfactory. At Manchester the market lice
been very firm, owing to the advance of the raw nl3
rial at Liverpool, although buyers being still cautiq,
business has been limited from the hesitancy to glc,
higher prices. At Birmingham the makers have reils).4
tantly consented to a reduction of 11. per ton in e
iron, and the concession appears likely to lead to Iso
transactions, in consequence of the great demand 1.
heavy machinery and the general requirements for r Lil
way purposes. The manufacture of a gasometero
Sinethwick, for the Sheffield Gas Consumers Compactel
of the unprecedented diameter of 165 feet is regard
with interest. The price of copper continues to hOoi
slight tendency to decline. Heaton and Son are
contractors for the new coinage of 500 tons, which `OO
' be commenced about the end of June, the °eel
firm being meanwhile employed in copper co” to
for Canada and France. The Nottingham accounts stoii'
business to have been interrupted by the Easter Poe
days, but there was a tendency to great activity, 01,
Australian, American, and home demand being all g°tr
In the woollen districts there has been continued all'"elel;
tion, and the recent strikes for higher wages have ~
arranged by mutual concessions. The Irish linen V
ket shows firmness and activity, without any Pesitiol
alteration, in prices. Letters from Rouen mention e 0
transactions in the market. for manufactures had bee,
more extensive, lower prices having in several cases
accepted.
gIA
LETTERS FOR AUSTRRLIA.—It appears that arras oep
meats have been made with the Post-office author4j,
for carrying her Majesty's mails to Port Philip and
ney by the screw steamer Osmanli, to sail from
pool on the 7th inst.

LAURENT'S CASINO, ARGYLL ROOMS.-
Lessee, CH.‘RLES E. LAURENT, Onslow-house, Fulham-
road. Open Every Evening. The Orchestra will perform, during
the week, " The Thistle," " Shamrock," "Rose," and "Arnim,"
Waltzes, the "Napoleon" Galep, "Le Cirque' Quadrille ; "La
Valerie," "Juno," and "steeplechase" Polkas.— Admission, Is.
Doors open at Half past Eight; to commence at Niue o'clock, and
terminate at Half-past EleVen.

THEATRE ROYAL, HAYMARKET.

Under the Management of 11r. Bnekstone.
THIS EVENING, APitIL 6,

Will be performed THE SHERIFF OF THE COUNTY. Cha•
ratters by Messrs. Tilbury, William Farren, Henry Corri, Buck.
ston^. A. Payne, Compton, and Rogers ; aliss Stanley, Miss Poynter,
Miss Ellen Chaplin, &c.
After which MR. BUCKSTO.NE'S ASCENT OF. MOUNT PAR•
NA SSUS.
To conclude with DR. DILWORTH.

ROYAL PRINCESS'S TEIEATRE, OXFORD-STREET.

'Under the Management of Mr. Charles Kean.
THIS EVENING, APRIL 5,

Will be performed the new and original Comedy, in three acts, by
Douglas Jerrold, entitled ST. CUPID ; or, Dorothy's Fortune.
Principal characters by Messrs. %right, W. Lacy, liar ey, J. Vin-
ing, Terry, F. Cooke, Everett, and Chester; Mrs. W. Lacy and Miss
Murray.
After which will be produced a new Drama, adapted from the
the French of Mons. Scribe, by Mr. Palgrare Simpson, called
MARCO SPADA.

ROYAL LYCEUM THEATRE.
Under the Management of Madame Vestris.
THIS EVENING, Aram 5,
Dp Will be presented A STRANGE lIBTORY. Characters by
214darne Yestris, Mrs. V. Matthews, Miss Julia St. George, Mist
ai. Oliver, Miss Rosins IVright, Miss Mason, Mrs. Ilorn, and Miss
"ham; Mr. C. Mathews, Mr. F. Matthews, Mr. R. Roxby, Mr.
Cooper, Mr. J. Bland, Mr. Belton. Mr. B. Baker, Mr. Rosiere, &e.
To cone:ude with LITTLE TODDLEKIN S.

THEATRE ROYAL ADELPIIL
Pro;rietor, Mr. B. Webster. —Directress, Madame Celesta.

THIS EVENING, APRIL 5,
Will OF be presented WEBSTER AT HOME, AN ADELPHI FARE
TUREE RENItiVES AND A DESSERT. Characters by Messrs.
B• Webster, L. Murray,eeley, &c.; Miss F. Maskell and Mrs. L.
Murray, Ace.
After Which, A NOVEL EXPEDIENT.
With TO PARENTS AND GUARDIANS.
TIII PRETTY GIRLS OF STILBERG.
THE DUMB BOY, AND PUG, HIS MONKEY.