The Sun.
London, England, 1838-02-09 00:00:00

derstood to say that inquiries had been made, and that
the complaints were not well grounded.

in Ireland, with education, and the antiquities of the country.
No doubt this statement was correct as far as an individual
could obtain it without an inquisitorial power, such as
might be granted him by this House or by the Crown.
Mr. Dalton did not exaggerate when he calculated the
amount of the charities not under the controul of the
Board at 2,200,0001., and the fact of there being only
charities to the amount of 280,0001., showed the great in-
efficiency and uselessness of the Board. The total amount
of the charities, both under the controul and independent
of this Board was 2,480,000/. ; which, with Parliamentary
grants amounting to 44,0001. annually—Grand Jury grants,
60,000/.—Private Subscriptions, 32,000/.—Charity Ser-
mons, 12,0001., would, calculating the interest of the whole
at four per cent., give the sum of 267,600/. annually, which
at this moment ought to be under the control of the Board.
He wished to know whether this state of things was to re-
main in Ireland ? He wished to know whether the chari-
ties of that country were to be left entirely under the eon-
trol of a Board which nominally controlled them, but in
reality did not ? There was a precedent for the motion
which he was now about to submit to the House, in" the

CHARITABLE BEQUESTS (IRELAND).
Mr. W. BARRON said, he rose to bring forward the
motion of which he had given notice, to place the chari-
table bequests of Ireland under a better system of ma-
nagement than the Board which now managed them, and
which, from the number ofits members, the variety of their
engagements and their irresponsibility, was quite incompe-
tent to discharge its important duties properly. What
would be thought, if all the Judges of England were ap-
pointed to manage the charitable bequests of Great Bri-
tain ? Was it not as absurd to expect the Judges of Ireland
to discharge a similar duty in that country ? The fact was,
that the Judges of Ireland have not and could not have at-
tended to this duty. And as to the Ecclesiastical Dignitaries
who were upon the Board, they were equally incapacitated
by their other duties from giving the proper attention to
the business of those charities. The Archbishop of
Dublin and the Bishop of Kildare were frequently
obliged to come to this country to discharge their
Parliamentary duties, and were necessarily absent
from Ireland the greater part of the year ; one of the Pre-
lates was unhappily now in a very bad state of health.
He had, on that part of the question, he thought, made out
a case. He had shown that it was impossible for the par-
ties, from the nature of the circumstances in which they
were placed, to exercise any adequate power or control over
those charities. The consequence was that the charities of
Ireland were much neglected. He had another objection,
to the Board as at present constituted, and that was one
of a religious character. The entire of the Board, as at
present constituted by the Act of Parliament, consisted
of Protestants. The consequence of this was, that
every single Catholic charity in Ireland, that is to
say, nineteen out of twenty of the whole, were
actually concealed from the knowledge of the Board, and
were, therefore, under no controul. The Board being of
an exclusive character, the Catholics of Ireland, whether
right or wrnng,he would not now stop to inquire, entertained
no confidence in the Constitution of it, and they
of course wherever they could concealed their charities
from the knowledge, and consequently from the control of
the Board. To so great an extent was this feeling car-
ried, that they were in the habit of handing over during
their lifetime large sums of money to be distributed by
individuals, instead of giving them to charities, or placing
them in the hands of Trustees. An instance of this had
occurred in his own family. In the year 1809, a relative
of his, for the reasons before alluded to, handed over the
sum of 10,0001. to four or five individuals, with verbal in-
structions merely as to its distribution. It was impos-
sible to know at this distance of time whether the
sums of money so handed over bad been properly
applied. He attributed no impropriety to the parties en-
trusted with its distribution, but he thought that the poor
had a right to complain that they did not know whether it
had been applied according to the intentions of the donors.
Now this in itself was a very great grievance. It
was a grievance inherent in the construction of the
Board itself, and not to the individual characters or
feelings of the men who formed it. Another objection
which he had to the Board was, that it was not responsible
to the public, and was under no sort of controul whatever.
His next objection to it was, that under the Act of Parlia-
ment by which it was constituted, the Board had no ade-
quate power of inquiring into the Charities of Ireland,
which, from its name, and the intentions of the Legisla-
ture who framed that Act, it certainly ought to have.
The Board considered that under the Act of Parliamsnt
passed in 1800, immediately previous to the Union, they
had no power to inquire, and that the only power they had
was to apply to a Court of Equity through their solicitors.
The consequence was, that not having this power, and being
obliged in all cases to apply to a Court of Equity, enor-
mous expenses were frequently incurred in the en-
deavours to get at charities that were found to he
bequeathed by different individuals in Ireland. Bills
were filed in Chancery and enormous expenses incurred.
Great dehss were consequent upon them, and it followed,
as a matter of course, that, in the case of smaller charities,
the whole of the funds were actually swallowed up in en-
deavouring to get at the charity, and that which was in-
tended for the benefit of the poor passed into the pockets
of the rich. This was an enormous evil, and one which
he hoped the House would assist in putting an end to, par-
ticularly when the subject of Poor-laws for the relief of the
destitute in Ireland had enjoyed so much of the attention
of her Majesty's Government. He did not wish his state-
ment to rest merely on his own authority, and therefore
would refer to the third Report of the Commissioners of In-
quiry, page 31, which strongly supported the proposition
which he had laid down. [The Hon. Member proceeded
to read the extract referred to. It commenced by stating
that their attention had been directed to the constitution of
the Board of Charitable Bequests, consisting of the Arch-
bishop of Dublin and several other persons. They conceived
that a Board so numerous could not be efficientforbusiness,
nor was a Board of so exclusive a character calculated to
give perfect satisfaction in the administration of the funds
created by the charity of persons of all religious persua•
sions. They therefore recommended that the powers of
the Board should be transferred to the Poor-law Cdmmis-
sioners. with such power as had been given to the
Commissioners for inquiry into charities in England.]
He hoped to be able to show to the satisfaction of
the House, that it was impossible to investigate the
matter properly, or to remedy the evils which existed
under the present system.—(Hear.) He only stated it
now for the purpose of showing the opinion of these per-
sons, and here he might state that the first name signed
to this report was that of the Archbishop of Dublin, him-
self a member of the Board of Charitable Bequests. It
was a strong confirmation of his (Mr. Barron's) statement,
that the Archbishop of Dublin, a gentleman residing on the
spot, and who, from having given the subject the greatest
consideration, best knew its working, should have been the
very first to place his name at the bottom of this report.
If any doubt existed on the mind of any Hon. Member

English Commission instituted several years back, which was
now nearly closing its labours. He did not mean to follow that
Commission in all its details. He did not mean to say
that in its original constitution it was or was not effective or
useful, or a creditable appointment for the country ; or
the Government of the day. But he proposed that if a
Commission should issue, that it should be limited, not
only as to the time of reporting to the House, but as to its
expenses—thereby giving to the House and the country
some hope that it would not be protracted to an indefi-
nite period, with Commissioners at large salaries. It
this should be done, and honestly done, they would
have speedy justice, and a proper management of the
charities in Ireland. If the expenses and the time
were not limited, he would not lend himself to the
matter in any shape. He hoped her Majesty's Govern-
ment would take the subject into consideration—that they
would consider its importance, and enter upon an investi-
gation of the charities of Ireland. The Hon. Member
concluded by moving that a humble address be presented
to her Majesty, praying that she would be graciously
pleased to appoint a Commission to enquire into the
constitution of the Board of Charitable Bequests in
Ireland, and into the present charitable funds and property
in that portion of the United Kingdom.

Mr. O'BRIEN, in seconding the motion, expressed his
belief that the Hon. Member who had brought the subject
under the consideration of the House had not overstated the
case in any respect whatever. He was fully convinced that
the present Board of Charitable Bequests was ineffective and
inadequate to the purposes for which it had been constituted.
lie believed also, that the character of the Board was con-
sidered by the Roman Catholics of Ireland of so exclusive
a nature, that it did not possess their confidence in any
respect. The Hon. Member for Waterford had not over-
stated the amount of expences incurred by the Board as at
present constituted, in the recovery of charitable bequests.
He could also hear testimony to the accuracy of the Hon.
Gentleman's estimate of the amount misappropriated and
misapplied, which could not fa much short of 250,000/.
per annum. With respect to the placing of these Charitable
Bequests under the control of the Poor Law Commissioners,
that was a question which need not now be entertained ;
but so far as regarded the third branch or charities, those
intended for the relief of the poor, in his opinion tt.eae
might well be given up to the Poor Law Commissioners. It
was necessary, that adequate information should be obtained
before the House could properly deal with the subject.
Col. SIBTH ORP believed that the outcry against the
Board of Charitable Bequests had been raised by some of
those hungry gentlemen (he meant nothing offensive) who
were disappointed of obtaining situations under that Board.
—(A laugh.) He would be glad to know what the in-
tention of her Majesty's Government was, as by that he
should be guided ; but he _believed that these Commis-
sioners hail done more harm than good in most cases.
If the Government acceded to the proposition of the Hon.
Member for Waterford, he (Col. Sibthorp) would feel it
his duty to take the sense of the House upon the subject.
Mr. WYSE defended the appointment of Commis-
sioners, because he thought they were more competent to
inquire into these matters than Committees. He considered
it to be necessary to make a proper inquiry into these
funds. The Board of Charitable Bequests was merely
a Board for receiving applications made to them ;
but he contended there ought to be a Board maintaining
a constant and vigilant observation from year to year over
the administration of these charities. Members of his
(Mr. Wyse's) own family in Waterford had left a consi-
derable portion of property, for the purpose of establishing
alms-houses for poor men and women ; but those bequests
had never been carried into effect. The misapplication
of funds of this description had the very worst
moral influence in the country ; it dulled the energy of be-
nevolence, and prevented the application of funds to useful
purposes, because a conviction lurked in the minds of men
that if they made charitable bequests, there was no gua-
rantee that those bequests would be obserred. The mis-
application of these funds had made religion a matter of
monopoly.
Lord MORPETH admitted that the Hon. Member for
Waterford had made out a very strong case—(Hear, hear)
—that he had shown there was a very large amount of
property, and that the present Board of Charitable Be-
quests was inadequate to the purposes for which it had
been constituted, because composed of persons who had very
heavy official duties to perform, and who could not, there-
fore, give the necessary attention to the subject. The Hon.
Member had also shown that the members of that Board
were exclusively of one religion, and that a great propor-
tion of the Catholic inhabitants must naturally feel jealous
of such an exclusive Board.—(Hear.) The Hon. Mem-
ber had also proved that a large portion of the charities
were frittered away in law expenses ; and he was sure the
House would agree with him, that if there was any
money which ought not to be squandered away, it was
the patrimony of the poor. He certainly did expect that
the Hon. Member would make out a strong ease, and the
Government would have been anxious to take up the mat-
ter, if there had not been so many subjects before them of
a more immediate and pressing nature. He (Lord Mor-
peth) was very willing that such an inquiry should be
made ; and whatever might be the nature of the Board
to which the management of the charities ought to be
entrusted, it was admitted on all hands that an inquiry
in the first instance was expedient. He did not think the
motion of the Hononourable Member had been put
in the best shape, because it gave no limita-
tion to the time or expense of the Commission which
the Honourable Member was so anxious to provide for.
It would be more satisfactory if the subject should be
brought before the House in the shape of a Bill, where
the limitation of time and expense might be effectually
provided for, and the expenditure of public money,
about which the Honourable and Gallant Member
for Lincoln so justly complained, would be prevented.
It was but fair to the Commission which was to extend its
enquiries over a great part of Ireland to compel the exa-
mination of witnesses upon oath. He would, therefore,
suggest to the Honourable Member to withdraw his pro-
position for the present evening, and bring it in the form of
a Bill as had been done in the Poor-law enquiry. The
country was much indebted to the Hon. Member for the
pains and research he had bestowed upon the subject.—
( Hear.) He (Lord Morpeth) would be happy to co-
operate with him on the subject.
Sir F. SHAW would suggest that the Government
should take the subject into its own hands. That would be
a much more satisfactory course ; but as the Hon. Mem-
ber did not mean to press his motion to a division that
night, he (Sir F. Shaw) would not make any further ob-
servations on the subject.

in that House, that an alteration was necessary in the
constitution of that Board, the evidence of the Archbishop
of Dublin would be sufficient to remove it, as well as the
evidence of the other gentlemen whose names were appended
to the report. He should now refer to another, and one which
was a high authority in that House, to show that the Board
of Charitable Bequests in Ireland was not competent to the
duties which were under its administration and controul.
When Lord Stanley formed one of the Irish Government,
he had made a communication to that Board, request-
ing them to consider some measure for the alteration of the
Board so as to render it more effective, and that communi-
cation was followed up by a similar one from Mr. Little-
ton, now Lord Hatherton. The answer of the Board
was, that so far from showing any disposition to op-
pose the views of Lord Stanley and Mr. Littleton,
they coincided and agreed in it, and were willing
to submit to any alteration which the Government
might think advisable, for the better management of the
charities in Ireland. He might rest satisfied with the facts
he had stated, but that he knew from various private
sources that it was not an effective working body. He
(Mr. Barron) had moved for a return on the subject last
Session, and if ever there was a proof of the inefficiency
of the Board, it was of the slovenly and irregular manner
in which that return had been made, some portions of
which had not yet been presented to the House. There
was in Ireland an immense fund of charitable be-
quests, which had been handed down from their an-
cestors, and the records of the Courts of Ireland would
shew the vast sums appropriated for that purpose,
which were now perverted to improper uses. In the city
which he had the honour to represent, a sum of 20,000/.
had been left by a Mr. Fanning twenty-five years ago to
the poor of the city of Waterford, and what would the
House say when they heard that for twenty-five years
the poor of Waterford had not touched one shilling
of that money ?—(Cries of " Hear.") There could not be
stronger evidence of gross negligence and mismanagement.
In the county of Westmeath there was a charity called
the Wilson's Hospital Charity, which possessed a property
of 5,0001. per annum, which was carefully concealed from
the people of that county, for whom it was intended.
If the Commission were granted, great abuses would be
discovered in the management of the charitable property
in Ireland. The fact was, there was no proper con-
troul at this moment over this property. The Board
which had the nominal management of it was not, as
at present constituted, competent to discharge its duties.
Was it intended to place these bequests under the control
of the Poor Law Commissioners, which were to be ap-
pointed under the Poor Law Bill to be brought in for
Ireland ? Was it proper to place religious and educational
bequests under the management of such an authority ?
It might be supposed these Charities were of no very great
amount, and that it would not be worth while for tire
House to make any enquiry into matters of such little import-
ance ; but he could tell the House there was p ima facie evi-
dence of an enormous sum of money in Ireland applicable to
charitable purposes which, if properly applied, would nearly
educate the people of that country, and would go a very great
way indeed towards diminishing the Poor-law expenses
likely to arise from the new Act. There was at the pre-
sent moment, under the control of the Board of Cha-
ritable Bequests in Ireland, in the public funds,
130,000/. ; in Chancery and other Courts of liti- POSTAGE.
gation about 100,000/. ; and there were a great Mr. WALLACE then rose to call the attention of the
number of houses in different cities, and different House to a petition from the Chamber of Commerce,
parts of Ireland, left for similar purposes, valued Edinburgh, in regardtothe reduction of the rates of postage,
by competent authorities, amounting to about 50,000/., praying that no experiment on Mr. Rowland Hill's plan
making a total of 280,000/. Mr. Dalton, a man of great might be entertained, unless based on its main principles.
antiquarian research, a gentleman in whom he could place
M
the utmo-t confidence, because he could have no ob'ect in uch alarm habeen occasioned throughout the count by
I
deceiving him, had estimated the various gifts in Irell the notice given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of his
being about to make an experiment of his own in cootradi,-
and a t
tinction to that
course that recommended by the Post-office Commission-
-110,150/. per annum. This Gentleman (Mr. Dalton) was e
a man of most laborious character, who had dedicated a hen g the
.se of last session it was distinct!}' stated that
ther '
recommendations of the Commissioners with regard to the
life to the investigation of matters connected with charities Twopenny and Threepenny Postage being reduced to oi.e

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob-
served that the inquiries he had instituted some years ago
into the charities of Ireland had utterly failed. It was im-
portant first, that they should have a statement of facts,
and secondly, that there should be some alteration of the
present system. He concurred with his Noble Friend
(Lord Morpeth) that an inquiry upon oath would be the
most -efficient. There had been an inquiry into the English
charities, and he was of opinion that the present one should
be analogous.
Colonel CONOLLY begged to correct a mis-statement
made by the Hon. Member for Waterford relative to the
funds of the Wilson's Hospital Charity, which, instead of
being kept concealed from the people, were administered
with the greatest impartiality and fairness. He felt it his
duty to disabuse the House relative to that mis-statement.
Mr. M. CHAPMAN had been informed by the
Roman Catholic Bishop of the Diocese of Meath,
that no less a sum than 5,0001. had been left with him for
the purposes of charity, and if the Board had properly
discharged its duty that would not have been the case.
After a few words from Mr. ROCHE and Mr. V. STUART,
Mr. BARRON shortly replied, and consented to with-
draw the motion. The Hon. Gentleman and Mr. Grattan
bore witness to the excellent character of the Secretary to
the Board.