The Sun.
London, England, 1854-07-12 00:00:00

grievances, that only a commission of inquiry could remove
them. Now, he maintained that his hon. and learned
friend had shown none of these three things, and having
failed in that he could hardly require any further answer
td his motion. But supposing the commission were ap-
pointed, what result did his hon. and learned friend pro-
pose or suggest should spring from it ? It might perhaps end
its labours by recommending that the ryotwar system
should be abolished; but granting that it did that, of
what use would that recommendation be unless they were
prepared with some alternative or substitute for the aban-
doned system ? True it might be advisable to remove
some of the evils that now attended the working of the
soil, or to enable the cultivator to relieve himself in some
way from payment of the land tax ; but in order to ascer-
tain that was it necessary to send out a commission ? Then
if they abolished the ryotwar system, they. mere to substi-
tute the zemindar system for it, or a system of petty land-
lordism, which would inflict more misery and suffering
upon the people than they already suffered ? He certainly
thought that it would be much better to let things remain
as they were, than that a change should be made so disad-
vantageous to the interests of the people. Yet these
were the only two alternatives open to them, if they con-
sented to part with the ryotwar system ; and therefore he
.contended that his hon. friend had made out no sufficient
case either for the inquiry into the tenure of land, or the
mode of collecting the revenue in Madras. He was pre •
pared to prove, if time would admit, that we had no alter-
native but to continue the ryotwar system, though while he
said that, he was equally ready to admit that the system
was attended with a good many evils which ought to bo
remedied ; but the application of the remedy should be
left to the local government, and not accomplished through
the instrumentality of a commission, which might embar-
rass the Government without doing any good, either to the
country cr the people of India.
Mr. D A.NBY SEYMOUR told the house that the evils
complained of in Madras had been acknowledged many
years ago. Fourteen or fifteen years ago the East India
Company distinctly admitted the existence of these evils
in Madras, and promised that something should be imme-
diately done to remove them, but from 1840 down to 1851
nothing in the world had been done to fulfil that promise.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman who had
just addressed them said the effect of this commission
would be to weaken the power of the Government in India;
but he did not at all agree with him on that point. He did
not believe the people of India were the fools they were
taken to be as to suppose that there was no other power
over them than the local government ; they knew well that
there was an influence in this country that controlled the
local government, and the same feeling which actuated
Hyder Ali a hundred years ago still animated the people
of India. Hyder Ali, the house was aware, when solicited
by some of his subjects to go to war with the English, re-
plied, "No I will nob ; it is not the English, though heie
in India, that I fear, but it is the English at home, whom
I can't see, and who possess great power, that frightens
me." Now that was precisely the feeling which actuated
the people of India at this moment ; they knew that there
was a stronger power at home than the local government,
and no commission of this sort could have the effect of
weakening British influence in India. Well, then, why
should they object to inquire in this way into a state
of things that was a disgrace to any English Govern-
ment. The sufferings of society in Madras were
worse than the disease known by the name of Plica
Polonica, and it was high time the executive at home did
something to alleviate them. The state of things that
prevailed in this presidency was without an example in
any other country in the world, and yet since Lord W.
Bentinck, not a single Governor-General had visited it
with the view of devising some remedy for the grievances
of the people. The present Governor-General could find
time to visit the newly acquired territory of Burmah,
which was likely to cost far more than it would ever be
North, and his favourite retreat in the Punjaub ; but
although the head of a federal Government, he could
spare a moment to the wants of this unfortunate section
of the Indian empire. It was the duty of the House of
Commons, then, to ascertain how it was that the local
government had so far neglected its duty as to allow this
disgraceful state of things to continue in Madras, and for
that purpose he hoped they would assent to his motion.
He thought that knowing the past reputation of their own
servants they ought to be chary of the natives. Take the
history of the last ten years of India, and among the ex-
tremely well paid servants of the company were there no
black sheep? In the presidency of Madras it was not only
the land tenure that was vicious, but the way in which they
collected the revenue was most disgraceful. No one could
say to whom the land belonged. One third, or more, of
the land was lying waste, and the people ware obliged to
emigrate. Some went to Ceylon, and as soon as they
got out of the territories of the company they became
prosperous. In Ceylon they were so industrious that they
were driving the Cingalese out. Then he found that
slavery existed in the south of India. He did not say that
the selling of men, women, and children was recognised
in the courts, but it went on nevertheless, and the people
were so degraded that they (lid not seem to value free-
dom, and they were not aware of the existence of the
courts. There was no registry of births, marriages, and
deaths, and he believed there was not a farmer in England
who did not care more for his cattle than the East India
Company cared for the people committed to their charge.
The Government had framed rules as to the tenure of land,
but they had a strange objection to making them public.
No one could get a copy. He had, got one certainly, but
he got it surreptitiously. (Laughter.) One of these rules
forbid a ryot from giving up bad laud, unless he gave up
a proportionate quantity of good land. Now, why should
not a man be allowed to cultivate what land he pleased ?
But the great aim of the Madras government was to get
ten rupees annually out of a man who had only got eight.
Torture, he believed, was resorted to to obtain the revenue,
the same kind of torture that was described by the Jesuits
at the beginning of the last century. Everything stated in
Mr. Norton's book might be proved to the house if the
East India Company would allow it. The servants of the
company had resorted on them ad nauseam, and in reply
they were told to mind their own business, and to get in
the revenue. He knew an instance in which a servant of
the company began a despatch by saying that he wanted a
reduction of the revenue because the people were wretchedly
poor, and that he was only repeating what every one of
his predecessors had been saying for the last fifty years.
India was a sealed book. The company would give them
no documents, or so many that they did not know what to
do with them, for they took care to give them no index.
The presidency of Madras contained 700,000 inhabitants,
and a man with 10,0001. was esteemed a rich man. There
was a time when there were many Armenian bankers
and merchants there, but they had all gone, and the
whole coinineree was now in the hands of one or two
English houses who were connected with the civil ser-
vice. A case had come to his knowledge, in which a
new kind of oil was brought into the market. It sold
well, but no one knew where it came from. A Calcutta
house sent an agent into the Madras Presidency, and
he discevered how the oil was obtained. The Calcutta
house determined on entering into the trade, and
the agent began to buy. The price of the oil was
immediately doubled to the great advantage of the ryots.
The agent went into the district to buy, and the ryots
showed every disposition to sell, but the next morning
none of them came to him, and on inquiry he found that
the collector had given them a hint that they were to con-
fine their sales to the houses already established. The agent
persevered for some time in his endeavours to establish a
trade, but such were the difficulties thrown in his way that
the Calcutta house determined on withdrawing, and did
so. There were many other cases in which the officials
bad interfered in this manner. In many of the southern
districts of India, in mouth Arcot, for instance, a cotton
district, the inhabitants said not one-fortieth of the land
was cultivated. They might go through 30 or 40 miles of
a desert country. The people were naked, not from choice,
for they needed cottons and flannels, but they could not
get them, and they were so abject that when the official
passed 'by they prostrated themselves in a manner that
was distressing to behold. The engineers of the Madras
Railway said the country was not cultivated, and they
could scarcely go a mile in any direction without meeting
with the remains of old irrigating tanks, which were now
gone to ruins. He knew it might be said that a great
deal of this had been remedied, and that the Government
had sent orders for improvements ; hut why were those
orders kept a secret? One of the great evils of India was
that the law was not attended to. The officials knew that
the one law that must be obeyed was that the revenue
must be kept up. When he was at Coimbatore he saw
new wells which had been dug by the side of the old ones.
The Government had sent out orders that taxes on the old
wells should be continued, but that there should be no tax
on new ones. These wells were very deep, and to dig
them great labour and expense had been incurred,
but the people had gone to this labour and expense
rather than pay the tax. He went on to the
Neilgherry Hills, and at each side of the road the
culthation was beautiful to behold, but on inquiry
he found that this only extended to 100 yards on each side
of the road, the collector having been successful in an ap-
plication to reduce the rent to 103. an acre, but beyond
that limit the rent was 20s. an acre, and as the people
could not make a profit out of it at that rent it was uncul-
tivated and was a waste. The fact was the East India
Company had no interest in the good government of the
country. It produced a revenue of twenty-seven millions,
and all they had to pay to the proprietors of the East
India stock was some 700,000/. a year, being 101 per cent.
upon their capital, and they knew that, however badly the
country was governed, it would produce that. He did not
see why the company should be kept up. It they went
onwards to the west coast they found an opulent and a
prosperous people. They had people on the Malabar coast
with whom it would not do to play tricks. They were not
broken-hearted, like the people in the Carnatic, but were a
bold and enterprising people. Why should they not take
a track round Madras, and try the experiment of giving a
better tenure? Mr. Norton, while showing him a house he
had built, told him he had not the slightest idea what he
should have to pay the Government for it ; and was it likely
that British capitalists would ever make the Presidency
the scene of their investments so long as such a system re-
mained? Or, take another case. The Rev. Mr. Blenkin-
sop, one of the company's own chaplains, had established
a youthful Blenkinsop as a planter on the hills, where he
had taken 59 acres on a lease of 21 years. Mr. Blenkinsop,
sen., in a letter to the authorities of the company, stated
that he had had three translations made of his son's futtah
or lease, which was in the Tamul language, and its purport
appeared to be that at the expiration of the 21 years his
son was to agree to whatever alterations the company might
then chose to make. Mr. Blenkinsop wished, before sink-
ing his money on the land, to know what was the meaning
of this stipulation ; because it was obvious that the
only manner in which his son could deal with the plan-
tation, if he spent any money on it all, would be to
leave off cultivating it at the sixteenth or seventeenth year,
and so to exhaust both the trees and the soil. A long cor-
respondence appeared to have ensued, but the purport of
the company's reply was that Mr. Blenkinsop seas to be
charged 2s. per acre for 21 years, in conformity with the
terms of his lease, and that then the rent would be raised,
ctbhaoruggihngnot to a
for the
hlaignhedarroalmtnodunitt. than
Butththeagtowvearstinnoietnat
very
isnatsftoicaecytil)oryn,tenure;o
where
hefcroluvllo would
dibay_landnfootr much
a pound rathera go
nacre
out anti out ? The consequence was, that Ceylon was be-
coming a flourishing colony, while Madras would remain
in its present neglected and disgraceful state. (Hear, hear.)
The company's servants would not make the inquiries
aiwhichi already
must
hon.
at:therefore,t friend
htt he soughtw ee o tvoe
risinsotrikt tei(tie;. a
nT,
th complainthe gOl e
a special commission to in-
vestigate the real state of the case. Madras, in the elang
phrase of India, was said to be the "country of the be-
nighted ;" and they were told that amendment was hope-
less.o ly persons
Butfello Lig:heat
teen of solemn import. It was uo user,p) taTkhinisgwaagsoavegrlnthos;
from the West Indies and sending him to the East. He
the
h ba
eh that
nlaedfs
s:a state ionutwhich twenty-two million
enough to devise a remedy the best intentions at the real facts
would fail in arriving
of the case. At alllearning
events, he would he years in
his business, (finterested etahi hevils around
s him. and, with The
state of things demanded ainnatehde
that end
shoemseht
ho
nl
gd
should
sagacityb e
in-
stantly clone; and he thought that the best men in the
country, who had been connected with Madras, should at
once be asked to return to India ou a mission, which they

would be glad to undertake, for it would be a mission of
benevolence and improvement. (Cheers.)
Sir J. W. HOGG said the hon. gentleman had probably
not been aware, in the zeal and earnestness with a hich he
had pushed his case, that he had in reality been casting a
serious imputation upon the Government of India. In-
deed, he had seldom listened to a speech in which an hon.
gentleman had dealt so largely in assertions, of which ho
had adduced no proof, or indulged in stronger language
than that which the house had just heard. (" Oh, oh.")
The hon. gentleman on his return from India, had in fact
been turning everything out of his carpet bag, into which
he seemed to have thrust everything that he had heard
from every person on every possible subject. (A. laugh.)
The lion. gentleman said that persons going to India were
very apt to fall into the hands of interested and designing
persons, and the hon. gentleman seemed himself to have
been an illustration of the fact. (Laughter.) Why, as
soon as he got to Madras, he had put himself in communi-
cation with the society from which had emanated a peti-
tion which was certainly the most extravagant and un-
founded document which had been laid upon the table of
the house; and which his right hon. friend (Sir C. Wood)
had truly observed, was a tissue of the grossest misrepre-
sentations, perversions, and mis-statements. (Hear, hear.)
Nay, more. The hon. gentleman had actually gone about
the country attended by two deputies from the associa-
tion itself.
Mr. BRIGHT—Hear, hear. Very proper.
Sir J. W. HOGG would put it to the house, whether
the information he would be likely to gain under such cir-
cumstances would not necessarily be of a very exaggerated
character. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman went
about and called, at every place where he stopped, parties
before him.
Mr. SEYMOUR—I never did so.
Sir J.W. HOGG—WeII, they came without being called.
The two emissaries of the association went with him, and
by some process which he would not designate, persons
were assembled before the hon. gentleman wherever he went.
An impression was produced that he was a royal commis-
sioner, and the people were persuaded to coma and make
their complaints before him in order that they might
be laid before Parliament. (Hear, hear.) It was only fair
to say that the hon. gentleman, when he became aware that
this impression had been encouraged, had done all in his
i
power to reprobate t. But an attempt was even made by
the designing
.persons into whose hands he had fallen to
levy contributions from the people among whom he went,
on the ground that they were wanted to defray the ex-
penses of the supposed royal commission. (Oh.) The hon.
baronet then proceeded to read from an Indian paper an
extract from a document published by the two persons to
whom he had referred, and who said, " This was the place
where the officials of the company began to oppose us by
calling Mr. Seymour a humbug, and saying it was of no
use giving money. (Laughter.) Fortunately, however,
this did not prevent the people from coming to Mr. Sey-
mour, or the subscription from proceeding." (Hear, hear.)
He was sure the hon. gentleman, on reflection, would see
that he had been led into indiscretion. Only fancy a mem-
ber of Parliament going into a district where, excepting
the collector and the judge, the people had hardly seen a
European face, exhibiting to them a picture on which
were pourtrayed verious species of torture, and asking
them whether they had been subject to cruelties like that?
(Hear, hear.) With respect to the abuses of which the
hon. gentleman had complained, he would only attempt to
answer those cases which came within his own personal
knowledge. Take the lease of Mr. Blenkinsop. The fact
was that the rent of the best description of land was fixed;
and the rents of inferior descriptions varied in proportion
to their quality. Now Mr. Blenkinsop's lease specified
that he should pay a certain rent for twenty-one years,
and that afterwards he should be charged according to
the valise of the land as compared with the best coffee
plantations, the price of which was fixed. Now if this
were the strongest case the hon. gentleman was able to
bring, the helm would judge of the value of his other
complaints. (Hear, hear.) As to the case of Mr. Norton,
it was perfectly inexplicable to him, because with the excep-
tion of the three towns of Bombay, Calcutta, and Madras,
there was no tax upon houses at all. [Mr. Seymour—
There is.] As to the case of the oil merchants at Calcutta,
why had he not made his complaint first to the board?
He did not like a man who did not go with a grievance to
the right place. (Hear.) Then with respect to the returns
which the hon. gentleman said the right hon. baronet (Sir
C. Wood) had refased him, he thought the request was
not a reasonable one ; for tho returns in question consisted
of the confidential reports of the collectors to the India
Board. The hon. gentleman had talked of the Governor-
General's "pet Punjaub," but he must say ho was
astonished to find that any hon. gentleman could sneer
at the achievements of Lord Dalhousie. (Hear.) His
hon. and learned friend who had introduced this motion
had adverted to several cases of peculation, but most of
these cases occurred many years ago, and it could not be
seid that there were any such cases occurring now. There
was only one recent case, and in that case the party was
tried, cashiered, and afterwards deprived of his pension,
although he had paid towards it for months and m..nths
before. And yet the hon. and learned gentleman said the
East India Company had shown a disposition to screen
such offenders ; so far, however, from having screened this
offender, the Court of Queen's Bench had pronounced him
to have been harshly dealt with by the company, and they
had been compelled to make him good his pension. Hav-
ing said thus much by way of reply to some of the obser-
vations of preceding speakers, he came now to the motion
before the house. In much that had been said by way of
statement and suggestion by the hon. and learned gentle-
man who had introduced it, he entirely concurred, and if
the debate had rested only on his speech, it need not have
lasted more than an hour. There were certain evils which
they all admitted, and the only question was how they
could be best remedied. The administration in India
wore anxious to see them remedied as speedily as
possible, but there were difficulties in the way which it
was not very easy to get rid of. This question of the tenure
of land had engaged the attention of the greatest and best
informed men of India, but although there had been occa-
sionally a difference of opinion upon it, and although it
was now held up to execration, the ryotwar system had
yet been sanctioned by Sir T. Munro, Sir C. Metcalfe,
and other equally eminent authorities upon Indian affairs.
They, like many others, believed the Government. was a
. better landlord than the Zemindars, because the Govern-
ment were less exacting, while they preferred the ryotwar
system far before that which prevailed in Bengal. A modern
system had recently been introduced at Bombay, which
was greatly in favour of the tenant; by that system the
Government were bound to let the tenant remain undis-
turbed for thirty years, but the tenant himself could put
au end to the tenancy at any time he pleased. That was
tenant-right with a vengeance ; but this question of im-
proving the ryotwar tenure was quite different from the
tenure itself. There was no doubt that it could be im-
proved, and that very materially ; for instance, the ground
was much too highly taxed. The hon. gentleman who
made this motion bad stated the reason of that, and he
had stated it correctly, because it appeared that grain had
greatly fallen in the market rate, but that very considera-
tion showed the necessity fur increased means of commu-
nication and public works. If they increased the produc-
tion of corn in a country where the people were not suffi-
ciently numerous to consume it all, they greatly wronged
the cultivators of the soil unless they gave them the
means of conveying it elsewhere ; but he did hope and
believe that the system which was now nearly com-
plete in the southern part of Bombay might ultimately
be applied to Madras. The subject was now engaging
the serious and permanent attention of the Government
of India, and he might go the length of saying that in
this respect Lord Dalhoneie was acting as the commis-
sioner of England. That being so, he hoped they would
hear no more about the British rule deteriorating
the Indian race, which was nothing more than a senti-
mental idea applicable to the past perhaps, but certainly
not to the present time, because at this moment the Go-
vermnent of India were spreading the blessings of educa-
tion throughout their territory, and doing their best to
regenerate the people, a work which could not be accom-
plished in 20 or 50 years, but might be completed in the
course of a century. (Hear.)

Mr BRIGHT concluded from the indignation expressed
by the hon, baronet that the speech of his hon. friend the
member for Poole had " told," and the hon. baronet had
succeeded very poorly in answering him. (Hear, hear.)
The speech of the hon. member for Poole was one of those,
however, which it was quite impossible to answer unless
they told the hon. member that they did not believe what
he said, he having simply related what he had himself seen.
(Hear, hear.) His hon. friend had been out to India for a
purpose
which did him infinite credit; and he could not
help thinking that it would be greatly to the advantage of
India if other bon. members would follow his example,
and instead of spending the recess in Germany, Switzer-
land, and Scotland, go out to India, and make themselves
masters of the real state of the country. (A laugh.) The
information which the hon. member for Poole collected
there was nothing more than what was confirmed by every
work which had been written upon India, as well as by
the statements of many gentlemen, both civil and military,
who had been in the service of the East India Company.
(Hear, hear.) The grievances of India had too long
•been
uucared fur ; and now that Englishmen were repairing
there, to ascertain the real state of things, considerable
jealousy was excited in the Government, who wore anxious
to keep matters still in the dark. (Hear, hear.) There
ualthoughartis of a theyund hadred years, bee nthere were not
in
was one conclusive evidence against their rule, and that
possession of
as many Englishmen settled in the interior of. India as
would make one side of the house on a fair division on any
the was
country this,
v izf.r that p
w
considerable party question. (Hear.) If it had been in the
hands of any other country than this ; or if it had been
under any other government than that of the India-house,
such a state of things would not have arisen. (Hear.) Had
it been under an absolute monarchy, like that of France,
or a democracy, like the United States, in either case it
would have been more flourishing. But a corporation had
been truly said to be "deaf to mercy, and insensible to
shame ;" and this was the case with the company repre-
sented by the hon, member for Honiton. That hon. gen-
t:email had not at all succeeded in showing that the in-
habitants of Madras were not in the miserable state de-
scribed by a former speaker. It was not necessary that the
proposed commission should be sent from this country ; it
might consist of persons in India; but he sincerely hoped
that the President of the Board of Control would take the
matter up.
The miserable state of Madras was undeniable;
every, book,
Pape;, and parliamentary report confirmed
this. The land was largely out of cultivation, and the in-
habitants were half starved. The great revenue drawn from
the land by the Government, and the miserable pittance of
the ryot, swallowed up the whole annual produce. Not-
withstanding
the large annual resumptions of land by the
Government, which were most unjust, the land revenue
had actually declined. How did the hon. baronet account
for this fact? Did he pretend to deny that the practice of
torture was frequent in the collection of the revenue?
(Hear.) Mr. Norton's book was an unquestionable autho-
rity ; he stated that if a ryot was unat,le to pay his rent
every species of severity was
practised ; he was summoned
from home and subjected to the thumb-screw and other
punishments ; his property was then sold, and ho was
turned loose on society to bog or steal. This was pre-
cisely the same kind of evidence as had been collected by
the hon. gentleman (Mr. Seymour) ; and all the sneers of
the hon. baronet would not invalidate it, or excuse the
barbarous treatment of his Government. (Hear, hear.) If
they took half the produce of the soil from the cultivators,
it was impossible for them to be other than on the brink
of starvation and ruin. The case was proved not only by
the statements made, but by the admission of the hon.
baronet himself. When a former commission was ap-
pointed, the governor turned the cold shoulder to the com-
missioners, and even refused them the hospitalities of his
table. He hoped that the President of the Board of Con-
trol would take care that such treatment was not offered to
any future commission. Col. Cotton, one of the most effi-
cient servants of the company, had rendered good service
to the country by promoting works of irrigation. The
government should remember that they owed India a duty
far beyond anything that had been done for it by former
governments. Their only anxiety ought to be to apply
correct principles of government to that country. (Hear.)
Sir C. WOOD said that anything had been discussed but
the motion before the house. A number of subjects had
been introduced which had no reference whatever to the
team.e of land in Madras, and into which a commission, if
appointed, could not inquire. lie had no objection to

members of that house doing as the hon. member for Man-
chester recommended, and taking a summer tour to India
if they thought fit ; but he would suggest to them that it
might be more comfortable if they went in winter. (A
laugh.) But it was of little 1183 to come to that house and
give specific instant !s of alleged grievances, which it was
utterly impossible the government could inquire into and
remedy, when absolute silence was preserved before those
authorities on the spot, who might ascertain the truth of
the story, and apply a remedy. It was impossible to be-
lieve that an intelligent, mercantile young gentleman
could see his property seized by parties near to Madras,
and that the authorities, had they been applied to, would
not have given him redress. But as he had neglected to
apply to those persons, it was a waste of the time of the
house to be occupied with grievances which it could not
remedy.
Mr. SEYMOUR—I said it was remedied.
Sir C. WOOD was glad to hear that that was so. He
hoped the remedy would be sought on the spot in every
other such case. He had never denied the existence of evils
enough in the presidency of Madras ; but it was nut to the
tenure of land that those evils were to be attributed. They
were owing rather to the over-assessment of the laud. This
was proved by the hou. member's statement. For about
half a mile he found the land well cultivated ; all beyond
that was badly cultivated. The assessment in the former
case was 10s. per acre; in the latter 20s. ; showing clearly
that the evil was over-assessment, not the tenure of the
land. (Hear, hear.) But the minion was for a commission
to inquire not into the assessment of the land, but the
tenure on which it was held. The tenure of land had no-
thing whatever to do with the condition of the peasantry,
whether distressed or prosperous ; this was produced, no
doubt, in great part, by the amount of the assessment; and
all the evils stated to exist would at once be remedied if
the assessment were put on a fair and equitable footing.
This would have to be done by an act of the executive go-
vernment of Madras. The commission might inquire whe-
ther the ryot tenure or zemindar tenure was the best for
holding land; but the over-assessment would equally affect
them all. Almost all the authorities referred to had given
the most decisive testimony that the best tenure in India
was the ryot war tenure. That was the kind of tenure which
the natives had been longest accustomed. The greatest evils
indicted iu India had been inflicted by our eudeavouring to
introduce English tenure, which was utterly contrary tothe
habits and customs of the country. This attempt had pro-
duced great distress and misery at Bengal, and also at Ma-
dras. If they wished for a proof of the folly of sending out
English gentlemen, and introducing English notions aout
the tenure of land, he would quote what had been done at
Madras, and refer to the book of Mr. Norton, quoted by
Mr. Bright, which afforded sufficient proof that nothing
could be so signal an evil. Atter converting the whole
tenure of the province into zemindar tenure, in 20 years
the whole of the zemindars failed, and were sold up, and
they were forced back into the ryotwar tenure. He main-
tained that the zemindars oppressed their ryot tenants
quite as much as the Government did the tenants under
them. There was a proof in Mr. Norton's book that the
Government were far more lenient. But it was said it
was necessary to have certainty of tenure, and therefore
ryotwar system ought to be done away with. The fact
was that that system gave the greatest certainty, for the.
other only continued for 30 years. This was the case in the
north-western district, where the laud was held on 30
years' leases. Mr. Bourdillion stated that the ryot knew
his land would never be taken from him ; it descended
from father to son. Mr. Fisher also stated that no one
could have a greater interest in the land than the ryot ; if
he had 50 acres and cultivated only 10 he paid for only 10,
and no one could interfere with the rest. This might ex-
plain why there was a great deal of land out of culivation ;
but it was evident that the ryotwar system was the best for
the cultivator. The late Mr. Mackey, sent out to India
from Manchester, had reported that the ryotwar tenure
was the only ono which would afford a solid foundation
for the holding of land. Such was the concurrence of testi-
mony in favour of this species of tenure. He admitted that
the assessment might be too high. But that was not the
tenure ; the assessment was the amount of payment fixed
upon the land, and Mr. Bourdillion stated that this pay-
ment was only in proportion to the quantity cultivated. All
the authorities showed that the ryotwar tenure' which was
perfectly well known and understood, was the best and
most certain. The worst thing ever done for India was
the attempt to force upon the people our English notions
and systems of tenure, thereby the greatest misery had
been produced. In the north-west provinces the Go-
vernment had adopted and enforced the system most con-
sistent with the habits and wishes of the people; and this
system had been successful. In Madras the ryotwar sys-
tem had prevailed under the native princes, and had been
continued by Sir Thos. Monro. It was a system which
was prevalent in all Oriental countries, and experience
had proved it to be the most successful. Nothing could be
BO useless as the commission proposed. It would be ex-
ceedingly impolitic and unwise to attempt to interfere
with the tenure of the land ; but there were many evils
that might be removed, particuiarly as related to the as-
sessment. This should be done, nut by a commission, but
directly by the government of the province. A governor
for Madras, Mr. Thomasson, had been selected, who would
be most likely to carry out these improvements. Subse-
quently to his time the Governor-General sent a commis-
sion to inquire into the mode of collecting the land re-
venue. and Lord Harris also was instructed that his first
duty would be to arrange the revenue and reduce the as-
sessment. He (Sir Charles Wood) had given his best at-
tention to the subject, but it was impossible to cure in a
few months evils which had been growing for so many years.
(Hear.) That much might be done was •proved by what
Lord Dalhousie had already effected, and there was every
intention on the part of the authorities to proceed in the
direction of reform. His hope was that by an improved
mode of collecting the laud revenue, and by a large expen-
diture on public works the condition of Madras might be
raised to as high a pitch of prosperity as was enjoyed by
any other part of India.
Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE complained of the manner in
which the hon. member for Poole had been censured and
misrepresented by the hon. baronet the member for Honi-
ton, but said that the hon. member for Poole had earned
a reputation which enabled him to laugh to scorn such at-
tempts at calumny and ridicule. Nobody could say of the
hon, member that he had any interest in perpetuating
abuses, or that personal power or emolument was the cause
of the interest he took in the affairs of India. (Hear.) The
hon. member had brought forward facts, of which no denial
had been attempted. The fact was that not more than one

fifth of the land is Madras was under cultivation, and the

next was that for the purpose of extracting a large amount
of revenue torture was constantly practised on the unfo:tu-
nate natives. That fact the hon. baronet, the member for
Honiton, had not dared to deny. (Hear, hear.) Another
fact, which had not been denied, was that the tenure of
land was such that to attempt the cultivation of land was
a wild speculation. In short, none of the facts advanced
had been disproved; and the result of their existence was,
that the population of Madras was in the lowest state of
misery and degradation.
Mr. MANGLES said that the evil of the case lay not in
the tenure of laud, but in the mode of assessment ; and
that certain y required alteration.
Mr. HENLEY thought the discussion which had been
raised exceedingly valuable. It was admitted that thereat
was excessive, but what was proposed was not the natural
remedy—namely, the reduction of the rent, but a commis-
sion to inquire into the mode of collection. This was only
a specimen of the mode in which the question was dodged
from one party to another. He hoped they would soon
hear that some action had taken place, that the rent would
he reduced, and the natural result would be that more
_

. ....
land would be cultivated and the revenue would increase.
He was glad therefore to hear the right hon. baronet say
that the time for discussion had passed, and that the time
for action had come. He should be glad to hear it denied
on the authority of the right hon. gentleman, that torture
was inflicted in the collection of the revenue, as had been
stated.
Sir C. WOOD did not believe the story, but he was not
in a position to prove a negative. Inquiry should be made,
but until it was made it was impossiule for him to deny a
statement put forward as a fact.
Mr. MANGLES asserted that during the many years he
had been in India he had never heard of torture being in-
flicted in Madras for the purpose of collecting the revenue.
flernoimede.ndltto hadelid
Mr. V. SCULLY quoted the authority of a Mr. Morris-
son, who said that the infliction of torture had often drawn
—(no)—and it was time, therefore, that the system was in-
quiredfboetetnh
admitted
iptetee
dthe h
at possessionlnd i
India
m.
was
sf
eI
mno
fdi
si l a: i
land
:Ist
encouragedi t in
_lreland
inquire_
into an
n
rackwhi c-
h rented was
'
°ea:et
aeenciuonrin
from year to year, upon an uncertain assessment—which
was even worse than rack-rent. He believed the tenure of
in-
troduced. u ced. into,
Tihne ordertenure that
appeared some imtpo improvement
land was the rootof all benefit or of all evil in every country
insecure tenure produced discontent, want, and misery ;
iswnhhotiNhiveenawf
osoerre
theluclr. aalinit:owei
nalsturnti
theaenbtsl
in-
dustry, and produced plenty, independence, and tran-
quillity. He considered that there had been ample grounds
the tenure of laud in India.

After a few words in explanation from Sir J. HOGG,

Mr. OT WAY was astonfshed to hear from the hon. mem-
ber fur Guildford that he had never heard of the infliction
motions hagcl en beenerai
generally
stifled
were
eini
n the
that
of torture in India, when he must know that a motion for
inquiry into the subject had recently been made in the
I on uen
d au
e
house way i
n . whichß ut ho
(Mr. c
(Hr. Otway) know that the practice of torture did prevail
in India, and to put the matter beyond doubt he would
read part of a letter addressed by a gentleman (Mr. Theo-
bald), a member of the Calcutta bar, to the hon. member
for Poole, in which he showed beyond doubt that the prac-
tice did prevail. it was as follows :—" We have had the
news of the course of your inquiries, and of some of their
results. Almost every vice and abuse flourishes in India.
Your discovery of the practice of torture is no news to
me. -I believe it is practised in every lock-up house in
Calcutta. In the Mofussil I had personal proof of it
not long ago. Two ladies, a gentleman and myself,
went up to Burrackpore in a palkeegharre, having
a 'coarse bag containing 400 rupees, which was certainly in
the gharry just before our arrival, but was missed on
arrival. After fruitless inquiry it was proposed to use the
thumb-screw, and we were assured by that means the
thief could be discovered ; we refused permission, but
were assured it was a common practice. It is high time
to depart from a system in which such practicetare com-
mon. The root of the evil, in my opinion, lies in the civil
service; one man is placed officially over a million of
people, scattered over some thousands of square miles, and
everything depends on his virtue and ability. It is ab-
surd to make such distinctions between him and all the
uncovenanted ; he is the tyrant over all, and is too apt to
be hoodwinked by the clever but low class of natives.
Really the civilian governs only in name; the real gover-
nors are the knavish natives. Tho support also which
civilians uniformly receive at head-quarters makes them
virtually irresponsible. There is a mutual compact
among the members of this class which defeats all com-
plaints
made,
and against them, though complaints often are
and are well founded.

Mr. MANGLES explained that what he had said was
that he had never heard of torture being applied for the
purpose of the collection of the revenue ; though he had
heard of torture being inflicted by police officers, who ex-
ceeded their authority, for the purpose of extorting con-
fessions from criminals.
Mr. ELLIOT could confirm the statement of Mr. Mangles.
From his experience in Bengal and Madras, he did not be-
lieve torture had been inflicted as a means of enforcing
payment of the revenue. He would not say that instances
might not have occurred of police•oflicers exceeding their
authority as was sometimes done here ; but ho did not be-
lieve that torture was inflicted, except in rare instances--
and then it was wholly without authority—by the police ;
and with regard to the thumb-screw, he believed it was
unknown in India.
The house then divided— •
For the motion 59
Against it. 6l
Majority —s
Mr. BROTHERTON said that they had been sitting till
two o'clock this morning, and again from twelve, and he
should move the adjournment of the house.
Lord D. STUART said he hoped his hon. friend would
not persist in his motion. He ought to consider that by
adjourning the house now, on a Tuesday night, he deprived
membergi of getting on with motions, which might be dig-

posed of in a few minutes. His hon. friend did not take
this course when the Government had business to dispose
of, and his taking this course with independent members,
and not against the Government, was not calculated to
raise him in the estimation of the house. He (Lord D.
Stuart) had one motion on the paper which would load to
discussion, which he did not propose to bring on, but he
had another which would be disposed of in three minutes,
and he should oppose the motion.
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD hoped Mr. Brotherton would
not persevere in his motion for the adjournment of the
house. At this period of the session members must take
every opportunity to get on with their motions. He had a
motion on the paper which there was no chance of bringing
on again if the motion for the adjournment was carried.
Lord J. RUSSELL quite agreed that it would not be
advisable to go on with any motions which would produce
discussion, but it would be refusing an opportunity of fix-
ing. the days for disposing of some motions, and throwing
over two or three on which there would te no discussion,
if this motion was persevered in. His hon. friend should
remember that all the time would betaken in going through
the motions, yet there would be almost as much time taken
up in dividing
_ .

Mr. E. BALL hoped Mr. Brotherton would persevere,
and that the observations which had been made would not
prevent his doing his duty.
Mr. BKOTHERTON said ho had been deceived so oaten
that he must divide.
The house divided—
'Fur the adjournment
Against it
Majority
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

83
-67

Lord J. RUSSELL said a question was asked in the
early part of the evening with regard to the business on
Friday. He had intended that the vote for the new Se-
cretary at War should come on on Friday, He had sup-
posed that the Bribery Bill would have gone through com-
mittee last night, and he meant to have gone on with the
estimates on Thursday. He should be obliged to go on with
the estimates on Friday; and therefore the rote for the
Secretary at War would not come on till Monday. Now
they had divided on the question of adjournment, he hoped
that hon. members would not persevere with motions on
which there was to be a debate.

Mr. NAPIER, said in consequence of the course that the
debate took yesterday on the Landlord and Tenant Bill,
he should feel it his duty to make a statement that must
necessarily affect the character of the Government. He
was anxious to make it at the earliest opportunity, and he
hoped the noble lord would fix a time. He had not an
opp e.tunity, yesterday, the time for the adjournment of
the house having arrived.
Lord J. RUSSELL—The right hon. gentleman may
have an opportunity on Thursday.
Mr. GROGAN—The morning sitting ?
Lord J. RUSSELL—No, the evening sitting.
CONSTABULARY FORCE (IRELAND.)
Mr. FITZGEitALD moved for returns of the number
of inspectors, county inspectors, sub-inspectors, receivers,
surgeons, assistant surgeons, veterinary surgeons, pay-
masters, head constables, constables, and subcoustables,
now forming the constabulary force in Ireland, and stat-
ing the pay and emoluments of each class, and the number
of Catholics in each class. Of the number of promotions
or appointments to each class above the rank of sub-con-
stable in each year for ten years last past, and stating
in each instance the number of Catholics promoted or ap-
pointed. And, the number of sub-constables who have
left the force within the last three years. The mo-
tion, he said, was one of considerable importance,
especially in the circumstances in which they stood.
For some time there had been a belief that the
promotions in that force had not been fairly carried
out, that there had been an undue proportion of Pro-
testants promoted. It should be borne in mind that the
proportion of the population was eight Catholics to one
Protestant. Of the thirty-five county inspectors there was
not one Catholic. Rather he should say there was not one
when he placed the notice on the paper, but since then
there had been a vacancy which had been filled up by a
Catholic. Then there were 248 sub-inspectors, of whom
219 were Protestants. The surgeons, assistant-surgeons,
and veterinary surgeons were, he believed, all Protestants.
There were 322 head constables, of whom 268 were Pro-
testants. Of constables the rank next above the lowest
there were 1,800, of whom 1,300 were Protestants ' and of
sub-constables, there were 8,300 Catholics to I,OooProtes-
tants. There was a precedent for this motion, Mr. Phinn
having obtained a similar return in 1833. He had no sec-
tarian motive in view in bringing forward the motion.
This force had a great hold on the affections of the people,
and his object was to prevent a course being pursued which
would render it unpopular. At present the sub-constables
were leaving the force in great numbers, as they believed
they had not a fair prospect of promotion.
Sir J. YOUNG said whatever precedents there might
be for such a return he hoped the house would not agree
to it. If a return were made of the figures without ac-
companying statements it would be exceedingly unfair, but
in Ireland the figures would be quoted without the state-
ment. Without attempting to impugn the accuracy of
the figures, quoted by the hon. gentleman, he was pre-
parel to say that no partiality had been shown in the pro-
motions, and indeed he was prepared to show that the
Roman Catholics had received rather more than their due
share. Though the Roman Catholics were the great ma-
jority of the people, it should be remembered that they
wore by no means the majority in the class from which
persons belonging to an educated profession were taken.
When Sir Duncan Macgregor took the command of the
force some years ago, the Protestants were as two to one
compared with the Catholics. By degrees the proportions
had been altered, so that there were now two Catho-
lics to one Protestant. He did not think that a single case
could be found in which any partiality had been shown on
the score of religion.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL thought it would have been much
more judicious if the right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Young)
had not objected to these returns.

Lord NA.AS thought he had never heard a motion more
likely to have a bad effect than the present. It was an
attempt to make out a grievance where non.) existed.
(Oh.) In truth the motion was an attack on Sir D. Mac
gregor—(bear, hear)—who alone was responsible for the
promotion in the force under consideration. (Hear.) He
(Lord Naas) considered that Sir D. Macgregor was entitled
to the thanks of the country for the efficient state to which
he had brought the Irish constabulary force.
Mr. CROSSLEY objected to going on with the discus-
sion at a quarter past 12 at night, when the house would
meet at 12 to-morrow.

Mr. FITZGERALD replied. He knew one instance in
which a Roman Catholic, who had been repeatedly passed
over, had been promoted since notice was given of this
motion. He found no direct fault with Sir D. Macgregor,
for be knew not enough of the rules of the force to say
whether he was to blame or not. He wished this return
in order to fix the blame on the right shoulders—
The house divided—
For the motion
Against it
Majority
ROYAL MILITARY ASYLUM

-41

On the motion of Mr. S. HERBERT, leave was given to
bring in a bill to authorise the application of a sum of mo-
ney out of the forfeited and unclaimed Army Prize Fund
in enlarging and improving the Royal Military Asylum.

bill to
Re
(NI
furAl E N
leave T S
tEOC
bringl ETR I Ti tnEaS .
purchase or dealing with securities issued by
the Russian Government during the present war betwe
render the
Lord D.S
England a misdemeanour. The noble lord said
T RUSSIANU
A RGTO mV oEv
en
Russia and Eng
the
on
house
was aware that as the law at present stood, any
belonging to this country who advanced money to
pßetreissia thereby became guilty of high treason, and that a
notincation to that effect had lately been wade to British
subjects residing in the Hans Towns. Having spoken to
the Attorney-General on the subject, he had found that
there was no law whatsoever to prevent a British subject
from purchasing Russian securities, provided the Russian
Government succeeded in contracting a loan ; and it was
for this reason that he sought to introduce the bill. His
object was to throw as many difficulties in the enemy's way
as possible, and he believed the attainment of that object
would be materially facilitated by the passing of the bill.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill.

A.
On the motion of Mr. J. JAMAWII6 SON, leave was given to
bring in a bill founded on the resolution of the previous
night guaranteeing a loan of 500,0001. to the colony of
Jamaica.
The house adjourned at half-past one.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-JULY 11.
TENURE OF LAND (MADRAS.)

Motion made, and question put, "That an humble address
be presented to her Majesty, that she will be graciously
pleased to appoint a commission to proceed to India to
inquire into the tenure of land in the Presidency of Madras."
The house divided; ayes 59, noes 64.

AYES-59.
Ball, E. Hayes, Sir E. Napier, J.
Barnes, T. Henley, J. Otway, A.
Bell, J. Heywood, J. PakingtOn, Sir J.
Bright, J. Heyworth, L. Peellell, Sir G.
Butt, I. , Ingham, It. Phi Ilimore, J. G.
Ca)ley, E. S. JoWife, Sir W. Pilkington, J.
Chambers, M. Jones, D. roilard-Urquhart W
Cheetham, John Keating, R. Potter, R.
Conolly, T. Kennedy, T. Robartes. T.
Craufurd, E. H.J. Kershaw, J. Scully. v
Crossley, F. King, L. Stuart, Lord D.
()Israeli, Rt. Hon. B. Knox. W. S. Tit% lor, Col. T.
Fitz Gerald, J. Lasiett, W. Tempest, E.ord A. V.
Gaskell, J. Lucas, F. Whiteside, J.
Goderich, Viscount Macartney, G. Wilkinson, W.
Greene, i 'apt. John Maguire, J. F. Williams, W.
Grogan, Edward Martin, J. Wise, A.
Gwyn, Bowel Mall, E.
Hadfield. George Morris, D. TELLERS.
Hamilton, O. A. Murrough, I. Blackest, J. F. B.
Hawkims, W. Naas, Lord Seymour, H.

NOES-64.
A'Court, C. Hankey, T. Pigott, F.
Anderson, Sir J.
AAlex.reh4 .
Price W.
Blair, Cot. J. H. Pinneyf VT.
Raring, F.
Heatheote, Sir G. Russell, Lord J.
Bland, L. H. titre,
Herbert, S Russell, F. C.
Bonhatn4larter, J. Hervey, Lord A. Sawle, C.
Brocklehurst, J. Hogg, Sir J. W. Scobell, Capt.
Brotherton, J. Hughes, W. Spooner, R.
Cardwell. E. Keogh, W. Thornely, T
Cowan, C. Kirk, W. 'Vernon, 11.
Davie, Sir H. R. F. Langton, H. G. Vernon, Capt. L.
Duncan, G. Loveden, P. Vivian, H. H.
Dunne, M. Lowe, R. Waking, Col.
Elcho, Lord Luce T. Whitbread, S.
Elliot, J. E. /dangles. R. Wickham, H.
Fitzroy, lion. H. Marjoribanks, D. Wilson, J.
Fortescue. C. :Mond, Dr. W. 'Wood, Sir C.
Fox, R. Molesworth, Sir W. Young, Sir J.
iieneti, C Monsell, W.
Goodman, Sir G. liowbrar, J. TILLERS.
Graham, Sir J. Mulgrave, Earl of
Gr-ene, Thomas Palmerston, Viscount Ilayter, W.
Grey, lit. Hon. Sir G. Plull more. R. J Berkeley, G.

THE ABDUCTION CASE IN TIPPERARY.—The Court
of Queen's Bench, as was anticipated, has refused to ad-
mit to bail Mr. John Carden, of Barnane, charged with
an attempt at abduction, at the church of Rathronan,
where he endeavoured, with the assistance of an armed
party, forcibly to carry off Miss Arbuthnot from her
family. From the judgment of the Lord Chief Justice,
in the report of the application on Monday, it will
be seen that his lordship thinks it quite possible that the
prisoner may be indicted at the next assizes for the
south divi,,ion of Tipperary for an actual abduction, and
that a charge of conspiracy may also be preferred, Mr.
Carden's residence is in the barony of Lower Ormond,
and in the Northern Riding of Tipperary.
THE RECENT SHOOTING CASE IN LIVERPOOL —Yes-
terday, at the Liverpool police court, the case against
Capt. Brock, captain of the American ship Harkaway,
who was charged with firing a pistol at one of his
.sea-
men and wounding him in the face, was again brought
on for investigation, brit the wounded man not being
able to attend, the captain was further remanded until_
this day (Wednesday).