The Sun.
London, England, 1853-06-10 00:00:00

correct him. I quite coincide in his opinion that it would
be impossible to govern India by such a council.
Mr. T. BARING was most happy, then, to find that
bankers and brewers were not quite such bad legislators
after all—(laughter)—and that it was agreed that there
would not be much wisdom in forming any administration
from a particular class—be they lawyers or merchants.
(Hear.) Nor could he assure the hon. member.that he
would 14 disposed to make an exception to the rule even
where the parties were disciples of the Manchester School.
(Laughter.) He believed that the council to be formed
ought to embrace within it men perfectly acquainted with
the state of affairs in England, and all the bearings of
English society, as well as those well versed in the details
of Indian matters. Neither did he believe that the mode
of election was as objectionable as was imagined. On the
contrary, he maintained that there was this advantage
attendant upon the present system, that it tended by the
notoriety given to each candidate to uphold the integrity
of the Directory. (Hear.) He was not one ofthose
who
pretended that in many respects our government of India
had disappointed expectation. He believed
been unnecessary delay in providing a code there had
of law for that
country, and that public works had been
too much re-
tarded. But hon. gentlemen must bear in mind that the
theyble for those
Court of Directors were not always responsible
could not
evils. They had had wars in India,
say that thew wars had always. been. uanudertakenb. y the
desire of the company, or that, if their influence withthe
government were to be diverted, that these wars would be
of less frequent occurrence. (Hear.) Perhaps
ear.) Perhaps it might
happen that there had been individual instances of patron-
age being abused ; but still, on the whole, that patronage
had been exercised in a manner to produce a body of
public servants, of which this or any other country might
be proud. (Hear, hoar.) And let him ask the honourable
gentlonen opposite (Mr. Blackett) to suppose that some
enlightened natives of India came over, could they not
point to`Lis, and say, " See, your judgments are not
infallible ; for your verdicts are always in accordance
with evidence. (Hear.) Nor do your legal reforms date
from a very ancient period. Behold the anomaly of a con-
sititution which permits a veto that is never used—that
smuts a negative power which is never brought to bear."
And yet, though all that was true, were they to be pre-
cluded from introducing changes into the administration
of their affairs. (Hear, hear.) Much as he differed from
the honourable member for Manchester, upon one point at
all events he agreed with him, and that' was, that this was
not a question between Manchester and Essex—that it was
no party question to be made the football of contention in
this house. (Hear, hear.) Much as he had learned from
his attendance on the committee of inquiry, one thing in
particular he had learned, and that was, the great import.
ance of caution in our changes with regard to India—(hear,
hear)—the great necessity of proclaiming that they would
not falter in giving the best form of goveinment within
their reach to India, but, above all, the necessity—the
imperative necessity of preserving this great question se-
parated from the influence of party strife and the blasting
triumphs of party objects and party discussion. (Loud
cries of hear hear.)
Sir H. MADDOCK said he was convinced that it would
be more advisable to postpone legislation at least until
next year than to pass such a measure as the right hon.
gentleman had proposed. While he was in communication
with the British Association when he was last in India, in
reference to the appointment of a fit person as their agent
in Calcutta to promote their views, he satisfied himself
upon this point—that there was no expectation amongst
the intelligent part of the oommnnity that there would be
another act passed for India during the present session.
He would not, however, make any objection to the intro-
duction of the bill proposed, although he entertained some
strong objections to many of its provisions. He was de-
cidedly opposed to the system of a double government. If
it were the desire of the house to get rid of frequent dis-
cussions upon the question, the proposition of a double
government would no doubt have the effect of attaining
that object. He , confessed that so far the measure pro-
posed contained many improvements upon the former
system. He did not consider it to be just or proper that
India should continue to be governed in the name of the
East India Company. The witnesses who were examined
before the committee on India were unanineously of
opinion that justice should be hereafter administered di-
rectly in the name of the Crown. It was true that the
military servants of the East India Company received their
commission from the Crown, but this was done only for
the sake of convenience, in order to fix their relative rank,
when serving in the field or at court martial, with the offi-
cers of the Queen's army. Since the institution of the
order of the Bath, only two members of the civil service
were thought worthy of the consideration of the Crown.
The existence of the East India Company was for many
years a mystery to the people of India. But the veil had
been lately removed from their eyes, and they were now to
he told that for the future they were to be held in subjec-
tion by the East India Company. For a period of 70 years
the coin in India was impressed with the name of the King
of Delhi. In 1815, when he went to India, the seal of the
Governor-General had an inscription on it in Hindostanee
language, " Slave of the King." That system had long
ceased to bo the case. The tables were now turned, and the
King of Delhi was considered at present in the light of a
mere pensioner. He thought it was high time that the
Crown should be directly represented in India. He asked
how could the fidelity of the troops be relied on when they
were told that they owed subjection to a power which was
not really in existence ? He perceived it was proposed to
name a new Legislative Council in Calcutta, and to give a
great number of members to the council. He doubted much
whether there would be sufficient business to occupy much
of the time of those officers. But perhaps it was in the con-
templation of the right hon. gentleman that many of those
officers should exercise other duties. There was, however,
one omission which he hoped would be supplied by the right
hon. gentleman. There had been no allusion made in the
employment in the Legislative Council of any of the natives
of the country. (Hear.) He could have no hesitation in
saying that, if there was any position in which they could
place the most distinguished of the natives with advantage,
it was one in which they would have to legislate for their
fellow-countrymen.
Mr. DANBY SEYMOUR said ho thought it must be
evident to all persone that sufficient care was not taken of
the interests of India by the Government of this country'.
He considered that the committee appointed to inquire into
the affairs of India were very partially selected. Of the
39 members who formed that committee, 31 of them were
connected with her Majesty's Government and the East
India Company. There were, therefore, only eight inde-
pendent members upon the committee. They had already
heard what the opinions of the chairman were upon the
subject. It was utterly useless to bring any witnesses
before such a committee. So extraordinary had been the
conduct of the Government in respect to this committee,
that though they had last year finished the question, as far
as the Home Government was concerned, it was this year
re-opened by the right hon. baronet the President of the
Board of Control himself; notwithstanding which, the
right hon. gentleman proposes to bring in his bill before
the evidence taken by the committee was reported to the
house, and in the hands of hon. members. (Hear.) He
asked whether the commonest railway bill would be treated
with such disrespect? He (Mr. D. S.) had had the advan-
tage of passing some two or three Sears in the Russian-
Asiatic possessions, both under the old system of govern-
ment and when a new system was introduced by one of
the most able administrators that had ever lived. He
could assure the house that that new system of government
had increased in a great degree Russian influence through-
out the whole of Asia, and had been crowned with the
greatest success. When he was in that country the 50
different nations of the Caucasus were treated nearly in the
same manner as the British Government had continued to
treat our possessions in India. For some time the whole
possessions of Russia rested upon a volcano, which every
moment threatened to explode and to overwhelm. During
the year before he had gone to India, there ware such con-
spiracies organised that the natives were prepared to assas-
sinate the whole of the Russian authorities. About a
week before the appointed time for the revolt, information
of the existence of such conspiracies had arrived from St.
Petersburgh, and measures were immediately taken to
meet the threatened danger. Be had the great advantage
of seeing the old system completely changed, and the most
enlightened policy carried out in its stead. That policy
had proved eminently successful, and he heard the natives
express the greatest satisfaction with it. The natives,
therefore, generally felt that they had more to hope from
Russian policy than English. In the Russian possessions
every one had equal privileges, and at the present time one
of the most distinguished generals upon whom Russia re-
lied with confidence was an Armenian—a man of a nation
that our Government would not permit to hold an ensign's
commission. The Armenian might enter the Russian
civil service, and might aspire to the highest dignity in
the State. There was no difference made in respect to
creed, colour, or caste—everything was thrown open to
the natives, and the utmost satisfaction was felt by
them. Could they doubt that when the time came to
choose between those two nations, which would each go
on extending their boundaries until at last the empires
touched, which would be successful? Ho could not con-
ceive at the present time a more important subject than
this. He must say that he had never heard such a conti-
nuation of misrepresentation from beginning to end, as he
had heard in the speeches of the right hon. gentlemen the
President of the Board of Control and the hon. member for
Huntingdon (Mr. F. Baring). He hoped that the people
would study the subject for themselves, and not permit
themselves to receive the false impressions which those
speeches were so well calculated to convey. The Whig
policy of 1839 was not one which brought success or glory
to this country; it was an eminent failure, and yet it ap-
peared that this was the policy that was now to be con-
tinued. In reply to the taunt of the hon. member for
Honiton (Sir J. W. Hogg), that the opponents to the policy
had not examined the papers before Parliament or the evi-
dence given before the committee, he (Mr. S.) would say,
first, that the evidence had been taken before a partial
committee, and was not, therefore, worth anything. Tho
inquiry was looked upon in India as a mere mockery, and
was designated as such by the Indian papers. He would,
quote an extract from the history of the Affghan war, by
Mr. Kaye, for the purpose of showing how those powers
entrusted to the East India Company had been exercised.
Was it not a notorious fact that in the papers which had
been received from India everything that told against the
case of the East India Company and our Government was
cut out and suppressed ? (Hear, hear.) Why, the whole
India government was a mystery of iniquity. They all
knew that such a personage had existed as Dost Mahommed.
In his time Russia and England were nearly going to war.
The position of Affghanistan was then considered most im-
portant. Sir A. Burnes was sent thereto arrange differences.
.Dost Mahommed was disposed to be favourable to the
English cause, and when the Russian embassy came to
Cabool he was not well received by it. Does Mahommed's
and Sir Alexander Burnes's letters were transmitted to the
zizzi,...t of England, and in those letters everything
actually oZl,9.oini. at the case of the Indian Government was
covthis sub.:Cl Ho would read Mr. Kaye's observations
ered afterjSir *A
It was only by a letter that was dis-
to this country b Alexander Burnes's death, which was sent
way in which hisYso his father, who was indignant at the
that the real facts sou had been treated by the Government,
became known. Now here were the
s observations of Mr. on the subject—the historian of
• the East India Company;'
Mr. Kaye's testimony,The hon. member then quoted
Company?
theheffect that a lie had been
'palmed upon the world by governor of 1839 and the
Court of Directors, who on th,elsotelaiseiiTe bore false wit-
Burnes.]arned and Capt.
ness aainet their neighbours
Seymour) put no
That was the reason he
East India
faith in any of the documents furnished by the
Company and the Board of Control. Turning
misrepresentations of the hon. member for Reinkto othere
in r
gard to the police of India, that hon. me had on,
re-
tuber
ede
at the hon. member for Manchester on the case of Daru
go
He (Mr. Seymour) agreed that a sing le
and the police.
case should not be taken as indicative of the state of Ben-
gal ; but the petition which had been treated with such
contempt by the Board of Control, and which had been
presented under the auspices of three most respectable
The hon. membey fo. e
gentlemen, told a different story
Honiton had declared that the administration of justice
laths was palest, The petition Ntatud 010 contrary,

stated that the police failed in the protection of life and
property in the lower province, and that a
man
it had become
the engine of oppression. It added thatbe detained for 15 days before a magistrate, and that
it was not unusual for witnesses to be in the com-
pounds of a magistrate for weeks. The petitioners stated
that native policemen employed terror. as a means of detec-
tion, and that torture was believed to be practised by them
also. The law and police, they said, spread corruption
among the native population; the police controlled the
magistrates, instead of the magistrates controlling the
police, and hence the terrible evils which were entailed by
the system. The hon. member for Honiton sneered all
through his speech at the hon. member for Manchester, and
asked him why he had quoted from the Friend of India,
rather than from Mr. Marshman's evidence ? Mr. Marsh-
man's evidence, however, made the case no better, for he
said that in the Bengal presidency dacoity, or night rob-
beries, were so common, that scarce a night passed on
which three or four were not committed with impunity,
and that only a year or two ago the magistrates confessed
that no man with 201. or 301. in his pocket could retire to
rest without a prospect of being plundered before he rose
in the morning. And yet Calcutta was the oldest of the
British settlements, and had been so for 100 years. He
(Mr. S.) had been in all the countries between England and
Central Asia—the Caspian Sea—and he knew of no place
where life or property was so insecure as it was in Bengal,
cr where the inhabitants were so ill-governed. The Pre-
sident of the Board of Control had denied that any man
under 25 was appointed magistrate in India.
Sir C. WOOD—As judge.
Mr. SEYMOUR—When the right hon. gentleman made
that statement, Sir Erskine Percy was seated under the
gallery of the house, and sent a note to the hon. member
for Manchester to say that his own experience differed
altogether from that of Sir G. Clerk, upon whom the right
hon. gentleman relied. Mr. Marshman's evidence was fully
confirmatory of the fact, however; they were called "boy
magistrates" by the natives, and to this was entirely attri-
buted the badness of the police. Criminal justice was by
that means deteriorated throughout the whole length and
breadth of the land, because of the youth and inexperience
of these judges.
Sir C. WOOD—Not judges.
Mr. SEYMOUR asked, however, should a magistrate be
under 25 any more than a judge ' • or should the vast powers
entrusted to magistrates in India over the lives and pro-
peties of the natives be entrusted to the sons and nephews
of directors not yet arrived at years of discretion ? Mr.
Marshman stated that when there was a good understand-
ing between the sessions judge and the magistrate appeal
was a farce ; when the contrary existed, the sessions judge
consistently and uniformly repealed the order of the magis-
trate. The committee had only examined interested par-
ties, whose evidence, could not, therefore, be safely trusted.
Mr. Sullivan even had been refused, though he offered him-
self as a witness, because it was known that his opinions
were adverse to the present system. Several witnesses had
been heard to express their indignation at the conduct of the
committee, and to say that it lowered public men in their
estimation. Within the limits of the Supreme Courts
money could be had at 5 per cent. ; outside of these limits
and within those of the company's courts it could not be
had for less than 12 per cent. The right hon. gentleman
and the noble lord the member for London could have had
these and other facts before the committee • but they had
played throughout the game of the India 6ompany, espe-
cially the noble lord, who, indeed, had altogether shirked
the subject in his programme of the session, and who had,
moreover, proposed to continue the charter two years pre-
viously, but for the question of the hon. member for Lynn,
which led to the appointment of a committee. It was the
fashion in that house to sneer at the hon. member for
Manchester, and to describe him as a discontented
Radical, in reference to the subject of India. The
late Sir R. Peel, whose provident mind was occupied for
years previously to the expiration of the charter, with the
future of India, had, however, consulted that hon. member
on more than one occasion in connection with the subject.
Notwithstanding that, the hon. member was excluded
from the committee, though, he presided over the cotton
committee, and eight safe men were appointed by the Go-
vernment. These facts were not calculated to make the
plan palatable to the public ; and that it was not palatable
was proved by the fact, that out of all the newspapers in
England, only two paid journals supported it—namely, the
Globe and the Morning Chronicle. The hon. member then
proceeded to read Mr. Macaulay's description of the govern-
ment of India in 1763, in reply to the statement of the
noble member for London that the East India Company
had governed that country for a period of 70 years with
exemplary wisdom and prudence. It was to the effect that
misgovernment was then carried to a point incompatible
with the existence of society; and that British rule in India
was more like the government of evil genii than of' civilised
human beings. In respect to more recent times, Mr.
Burke had said the English Government in India was no-
thing but a succession of officers—a commonwealth with-
out a people—a state made up of magistrates. While Mr.
Kaye, the latest writer of all, said that the servants of the
Company regarded the natives as dark-faced, dark-souled
Gentiles, whom it was their business to overreach in peace
and to overcome in war. That was a pretty picture of a pa-
ternal government. Mr. Kaye added, among other facts,
that there was a race of natives in India who worshipped
devils ; and that these poor people had most prominent
among their infernal deities the image of an Englishman,
whom they propitiated with sacrifices of spirits and cigars.
In 1833, Mr. Shore, and he was high—perhaps the highest
authority—and that one reason of the mystery that per-
vaded the government of India was the dread of the
directors that their system of government would be exposed.
He, too, bore testimony to the diminution of kindly feeling
towards the English on the part of the natives, and stated
that the chief end, aim, and object of the company's go-
vernment seemed to be the exaltation of the few and the
oppression of many ; first, by appointing to all offices of
power and trust persons utterly ignorant of India ;
secondly, by excluding the natives from all such
offices ; and, thirdly, by acting on the idea that the natives
were unfit for any functions except the most inferior and
ill-paid offices. Mr. Cameron and Mr. Chapman, high
authorities, also bear testimony to the same effect ; the
:atter stating that vast heaps of humanity, festing in com-
pulsory idleness, encumbered the soil, but that it might
ono day turn to gunpowder, and ignite, at the slightest
touch. He (Mr. Seymour) asked the hon. member for
Honiton whether Mr. Kaye's book was paid for out of the
taxes levied on the people of India—(hear)—as the " His-
tory of India," written by Mr. Thornton, to supersede the
continuation of Mountstewart Elphinstone's history, was
said to have been? The continuation by the latter was still
unpublished ; but it was asserted that the inferior work
intended to be set aside had cost the India Company no
less than 7,0001., though it could now be had for a low
price at a book-stall. In the speeches of the President of
the Board of Control and of the noble lord the member
fbr London little or nothing had been said of the
100,000,000 of natives ; it seemed as if the whole question
had reference solely to the Board of Directors and
the Board of Control. In this respect the course of
the Government contrasted most unfavourably with that
of Lord Glenelg in 1833, whose reference to that great
empire, which fell into our hands less by the will of
Providence than through our own crimes, was marked' by-
a tone of high moral elevation and anxious desire to pro-
mote the happiness as well as the enlightenment of the na-
tive population. The hon. member for Honiton sneered
all through his speech at the statements of the hon. mem-
ber for Manchester ; but the hon. member himself had in
most of his own statements misrepresented, unintentionally
of course, the facts. He had misrepresented the facts as
regarded Mr. Kaye ; and he had charged the hon. member
for Manchester , with quoting scraps and patches from
magazines and newspapers. Mr. Norton, the vakeel of the
Madras Government, however, had borne testimony to the
incompetency of the judicial bench, and to the general in-
efficiency of the present system ; and Mr. Primp, himself
a director, stated that the administration of justice in
India had fallen into the worst repute, and was open to
the most serious imputations. It had been said by Sir G.
Clerk that it was the impression that European judges
were incorruptible ; but to correct this opinion, informa-
tion came shortly afterwards to the effect that two of the
judges of the Sudder Court had been removed under suspi-
cious circumstances. For the reasons he had already ad-
duced, ho was of opinion that the company's system of
government was not a good one. It had been stated that
the Madras petition contained allegations that were incor-
rect ; but if there were inaccuracies in that petition, those
inaccuracies were but slight, and ought not to have led to
the virtual rejection of the petition. The allegations
of the petition ought to have been thoroughly inves-
tigated. Sir G. Clerk asserted that where the ryot-
whar system prevailed there was great poverty. The
testimony of Colonel Sykes was to the effect that land
had very little or no value in Madras, because of
over assessment. Farming was a wild speculation.
The rent was divided, not between the Govern-
ment and the farmer, as it ought to be, but between the
Government and the usurer. The system must be radi-
cally faulty to produce such results. When land was in
this state, it was fair to infer that the population was in
an equally degraded state, and when the population was
degraded that did not say much for good government. It
had been said by the hon. member for Huntingdon that
the object for all good government was to ensure security
for life and property ; but there was no property in land
in Madras, and there was very little security for life. Ho
admitted that these censures did not apply to all districts,
but they certainly did to some. He would quote from the
Calcutta Review to prove the character of the civil service.
But he would first give an extract from the Cawnpore sta-
tistics to prove that the average allowed to the cultivator
was only 2s. 1.0. per head, and yet 'this was one of the
most favoured districts. Had there been a proper system
of government, it would not have been necessary for the
company to have laid out a shilling in irrigation, because
capitalists would have come forward to do all that was re-
quisite. Was it true or not, that Colonel Cotton had
written two very damaging reports relative to the affairs
and management of the company, and that these reports
were suppressed under special, but not very honourable,
circumstances to the company ; was it true that 100,000
persons died from famine yearly in India, which might
have been prevented by due exertions on the part of the
company, and which in fact had been of late prevented by
the energetic efforts of Colonel Cotton ? Many hon. gen-
tlemen saw in this bill only a temporary measure—a
measure merely to break the fall of the directors, and he
could assure the government that public intelligence and
public determination would not permit the existing system
to continue, or the Court of Directors to be in existence.
If legislation had been delayed for a year, the prospective
agitation at the present incomplete measure would have
been impossible. The changes contemplated were of great
commercial importance. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Hastie.)
They were of particular importance to the constituency of
the hon. gentleman opposite who had interrupted him, and
who ought to state his views on this important matter.
He considered that a Government which had not attended
to the due administration of justice, and had debarred the
natives from holding suitable offices—which had placed
obstacles in the way of settling permanently British com-
merce in India, had not done its duty well. (Hear.) He
had now answered the challenge of the hon. member for
Honiton, who said if it could be shown the Government
had not been a good one that the company would not have
a leg to stand upon.
Mr. HASTIE, who had been alluded to, said before hon.
members- proceeded to tear down an old system they
ought to be prepared to show what they proposed to sub-
stitute in its stead. (Hear, hear.) The agitation which had
been got up on this questioni was mainly referable to a
few disappointed persons—lawyers, newspaper writers,
and others. In 1813 an agitation had been got up to
throw open the cotton trade. (Hear.) It was then about
600,0001. a year, and now it was upwards of 5,000,0001.
It had been asserted by hon. gentlemen that the system
of government of the East llndia Company had been to
throw millions of the natives out of employment. This,
he asserted, had been done by the Manchester people
—not by the company • for, in order to further their
own cotton trade, they kept on a duty of 60 per cent. on
Indian cottons, and compelled the natives of India -to
mthe receiveem Manchester cottons at 5 per cent, duty. The bon.
ber opposite said his constituents had a deep interest
in question That might be ; but it was not to give
native corarnogt"
the natives ern• I
undersell them hi'. their ment, but to enable them to tax the
that the Manchester people might
wai4
compcoci
troorwencerrket. (Hear, hear.) When
ve English cot,ton3 at a duty