The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-06 00:00:00

Zbtro .(7..:t ttt -.. n

CHESTER RACES.

(THIS DAY.)
(BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.)

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IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.)
ISSUE OF WRIT FOR BERWICK.
The order of the day having been read for resuming
the adjourned debate on the motion for issuing a writ
for Berwick-upon-Tweed in the room of Mr. Matthew
Forster and Mr. Stapleton, who had been unseated on
the ground of bribery,
tMr. HUME said there were no less than five ad-
un led debates respecting the issuing of writs for
4,!roughs_, and he thought it would be a great advan-
Zge to the country and save the time of the house if
the
theiwere all brought forward at one time. (Hear.)
r. WHITESIDE wished to state, as a member of
committee, that all the attorneys who were examined
swore that there was no compromise.
The house then divided—
For the original motion 2lB
For the amendment 6O

• Majority for the m0ti0n.......... 158
THE ROTHERHITHE SEIZURE.
011 the motion for going into committee of ways and
means,
illr• DUNCOMBE rose and said—ln pursuance of the
,notice which appears in the journals of the house, I have
t,„°°' to ask the noble lord the Secretary of State for the
.4.4.0133.
re Department whether, in consequence of two infor-
iohs of a political character having been laid against
lh• hale, inventor and manufacturer of the patent war-
rftket, and the first of such informations having terminated
the said patentee (Wm. Hale) being adjudged to pay
certain penalties to the Crown, it is the intention of her
lifai 4
the'esurs Government to advise the Crown to proceed with
, second information, laid under the provisions of a law
asAsed during the reign of William 111., 1697, intituled
4'o act to prevent the throwing or firing of squibs, ser-
liehte, and other fireworks." Now, sir, in asking this ques-
;i°ll' I will state as shortly as possible not only my reasons
or
tent''e as.:_
'g it, but exactly how the case stands at the pre-
-o,_„lhoment as regards the defendant Hale think I
7,71 be able to prove to the house that so absurd and ridi-
c-°llB a. MSC t. th -esent was neve instituted by
lkliy Br:„ , eti lon as e p- . .
this 1' Government on political grounds. (Hear.) That
noutt"Becrition was instituted for political reasons and on
.86,,,,1e,a1 grounds, I think the noble lord the Secretary . f
hie-',.,'1 for the Home Department has already admitted in
y iive:ce in this house • but if there be any doubt about it,
nen use
only to 1 k at the leading articles which have
La- 'le,arcod in the organ of the Government, and certain. ex-
ho '43
fr°lll which I will take the liberty of reading to the
fPrlol,,pBe°43clasear.) The first seizure of Mr. William Hale 's
made on the 14th of last month, and on the
io(hrio,,,,g day, the 15th, an article on the subject appeared
lac.,e -runes, It commenced as follows :—" The Britishf
pro:,rarnent has not waited long..for an. opportunity of
Put to all the world the sincerity. of its resolution
_to_
other nspitl'alrty
Roo the law rigorously in force against such foreign refu
8 rear in this country as have abused the tolerant.
Nsrteatese.f
clri:e-- England by carrying on conspiracies against
We believe that we are correctly informed
state that, upon intelligence received by the S.e-
sioa7 of State for theHomeDepartment and the Commis
beeolli °f Police for the Metropolis, active measures have
been aken to substantiate the .charges which have long.
rentBvagll,,elY preferred against M. Kossuth and his adhe
tion ',.....uP0n this legal information a house in the. occupa-
earj,°,., A. Kossuth was searched yesterday morning at an
sortie, "htir by the competent authorities, acting, we ptre-
re,„?? tinder the Secretary of State's. warrant, andhe
401.'4 of this investigation was the discovery of a largehil:
loa::)(3'f,a,vhas, ammunition, and materials of war, c
teria,,,• °, the stock in trade of a political incendiary,w but
geotf:'Y form no part of the household goods of a private
redo -taarl living in pacific retirement. Indeed, there. is
oo to believe that these preparations have been
.going
auyilit°ll a scale entirely inconsistent with the notion of
hos
.ere
tin 4., Private speculation, and must have had in view
tive pl,`"°B or insurrectionary movements of a very. destruc-
tto -e'laraeter. We know not how long the attention of the
thgllsl,;°,lae b.as been directed to the suspicious pro?eed-
„oat L-73.,Persons engaged in these lawless undertakings,
4...14 tram Palmerston has shown his usual energy and. skill
tort' the evil to its root ; and it is extremely satisf?,c-
theao -at the Minister who has been so often identified with
Grove adventurers b the ignorance or passion of foreign
cons,,rAlhents shoulinow have it in his power to show, by
the Gl,,ll?„us, example, that the good order of society and
hot to tulYrelations of this country with foreign States are
been' ° violoted with impunity under his administration. '
for libelled
believe M. Kossuth has complained of having
a°r`l tithe Sit this article, but in my opinion the noble
More reason etaly of State for the Home Department has
ti,Y, t 7" 4,„.. ,complain for I think he has been libelled
-.4'8 ho '2 --• tßear, hear ) It is only two years ago since
re 86,118?, after , long' kii iution in and interesting debate, passed a
b t' of the noble lord's foreign
tl-1,..441„1, voted approbation that resolution, because I
rat,,T, u.(he noble lord had taken an independent part in
ZgetelA to foreign countries, and I am much surprised,
its ilte, to find the Times eulogising him for conduct
ae noble",Le reverse. Still I retain my favourable opinion. of
4 ,lie or d,hatever the Times may say, I think
!tin, lord'isunot "the Minister of Austria." (Hear.)
agai4 other article the Times says that the proceedings
I,.ethell,Bstlthje Hales are not for paltry penalties, but are for.
are :,_ 74e purposes. The exact words of the journalist
tieer,„eti u be absurd suppose
..
t) lt would to that the
.active and
i
flit c measures taken in this Case, under the mmodiate
Treetical of the Government, and by the Solicitor to he
considerably more to be
1ire,48017, are solely intended to recover this paltry penalty.
tit i're confident that there is
are still important wit-
ttr., "sod than is yet before the public. if we are not
.
e.Rll'Ol3, misinformed, there .
~,,„ ea_ivho have
LI . 6 not been examined on !this charge against
`• gale for he only figures in the capacity of agent and.
tiah fact' er of rockets for other parties." Well, that is
•ga opinion of the Times, but it has been confirmed by thef
Ire hinith t have been made at Bow-street on the part o
dad h, eGovernment.eBa . Now, sir,asl haveiiri said, Mr. Hale has
The first informa-
iii(l two informations laid against h
tf ,tlWas brought under what is called.the. Gunpowder Act
'-'eor e 111. Under that act he was adjudged to pay
h2s..
a lb. g
1,. . or 571bs. of a composition which was found on is
ki,k"laises at Rotherhithe, but which he maintains was not
ta—lPoowwder, and which I believe no man ever thought was
orstli übesit: until itbc:ame to Bow-street. He had 2571b5. of
ssion, but he was acknowledged
gbeß a traderaCe
inn guns poewder, and as traders are entitled to
ave 2601b5. on their premises, he was sentenced to pay 2s.
i4-I;,°llnd only on the remaining 571bs. But the truth is,
r.o-nOlaie had carried on his works, had made his shells and
r-ar,'te, close to Woolwich Arsenal, without let or hind-
ti rangy
for a long period, and only a comparatively short
ta-tae has elapsed since lie removed to Rotherhithe, and so
linle within the provisions of the Gunpowder Act ; forrle
than' eratand toe act prohibits any person from keeping more
0,._, 200ibs. of gunpowder within three miles of the ci y
ji,; Lsondon, in case, I presume, my hon. colleague the Lord
Qatlor and the corporation of the city should be blown up.
tleth ugh.) Under these circumstances Mr. Hale was con-
\vii;tl°(l, though I won't say it did not appear very clear
114., her the composit. found on his premises was gun-
,i3l,der or not. Witnieensseswere produced on both sides.
the' witness brought forward by Mr. Hale, an experienced
1705111gluit, said it was nonsense to suppose the composition
the unhPowder ; but the witness produced on. the of
d% .„,terhment, said it was gunpowder ; while the firm
it w -"era Mr. Hale was in the habit of dealing declared
iqr. se of supposed to be gunpowder by the trade. Poor
but het" the magistrate, was completely bewildered ;
hie,,,,,: wen home, took down his " Encyclopmdia Britan-
laugolnd looked to see what gunpowder really was. (A
at no 1 Three days afterwards he re-appears on the bench
tleocow-tat.eet, does not say a single word about the evi-
aay.e..._.:Talch had been given by competent witnesses, but
that thisl have found in the ' Encyclopaedia Britannica'
bierj., after all is gunpowder, because our ancestors for-
the '',...48ed guimowder in an ungranulated state, and
rcied,?.'',,,, hulation of gunpowder is only an invention of
laaghr tithes." And so he granulated Mr. Hale—(a
lki 1 Judging'"---ad him to „v-
-e L--i us nfow
dltmeg go - '4
penalty of 5/. 14s.
chghwtzeu:•.)th end of State.. Prosaecution number one.
to number two.
4oellitrthe last ocecas.
allo the Crown, iffnorrme eecF. thee to,
dki the coun-
t__ , they iliformatio to hi h l ' attent on
magistrate that there was
tiY. be direct d n w c . us . would by-and-
'tailed. .e , and as to which, circumstances would be
W,onid . which he would not now anticipate, but which
i'-'LlvteerybinaldyPail_t another character. to these transactions.
trahtided tn'irr„that the meaning of this was, that it was
tEtk'sactien,
01.11t],i,119: M. Kossuth with the proceedings and
, t reat explosion was to
114(t! I)l4°° °ll th tee ahees were to rtHaloef tthea4egrnment, and that cir-
at it was %II a dreadin, 0 bed.isclosed, showing that there had
Gov°, and th‘u conspiracy between
.M. Kossuth and Mr.
like ellalelit ' their intention to blow up every
2 • (A la M Europe which they might. happen not to
Ijkras laid, ugh.) The act under which information No.
h ~,', 1.697, Was an act passed in the 9th year of Williamen
its-It'Plete alld °no which, I will venture to say, has be
Pas dead letter since within a very few years after
Of . and
be 4glarklng e What I complain of, and what the people
is •earieci Plain of, is, that a State prosecution should
rot e_ under such an Act of Parliament as this. It
s'kit,tillteb,B,lse'rpel"LA:n act to prevent the thEowing. or firing of
liN. (L iti is_`43, and other fire works, and its object, as
te °4s linihr Preamble, was to avert the danger to the
witesult fry and eyes of the lieges, which had been found.
ol_ firowa.l. the practice which then prevailed of letting
otZlinfa,tZ
or the open air. The act provides that the
at,,Pr firew,‘" r sale of any rockets, squibs, serpents, or
4,,,e' afte rdilrr.2t. or of cases or moulds for the same, on
tt„.' ,4ex,ol' 25th of March, 1698, by any person of what
th,;reit!flietior,, or quality soever, shall be punished by
bedpan 1" saving` a Penalty of 5/. for each offence ; but
lio to ~,..g ,elause at the end allowing the Board of
lo.so kallitja '"a443 rockets, and the Artillery Company,
thirs 1,1"0:1(1,1Traih Band.'s, to manufacture and use fire-
[Nett Air. -,,:',.. , there can be no doubt at all that under
tllat. of a ;144,0.in making rockets and shells, has been
Rtliw kr. IF.1;•allen. of the law ; everybody will admit
"Ira of a..vi4nratrinaself admits it. But if he has been
of the law, so has every person who
4clttil):4l° a rocket
\(a have those who manufacture rockets,
ol''ltea 1,08°;Pe.....tt5, and crackers for Vauxhall and Cremorne
„titt hes ion)ti'nd ll2'B
man
f turer of lufer
Nt'Wh° has 8 e"ntrY• (Ileerayr, hear u,
aanc cl laughter.) I
tbalon ooder'Z' tighttho of instituting a political prose-
Nvlielaat'istrat, la act (Rear, hear.) qiNrhy Mr, Hen
u f idooce f°, and glad to
ill,
e°,l, traa,act! aPPeara to hove been ashamed, of the
get ridof it. He heard
W 1 °lir Ito ° Pertain witnesses,
ams:!ng whom were three
aaLe lam 2_garmas---no not II
th 4 \Leh 7eil object, 1 , . 9nganans—political exiles,
es- ° had • ° charity in thexLash M Kossuth
Li, it received assista -1*
trnglith pl'PPears from his nee at ands. One of
ig, ottierne Maidstone (11%!)1.n (Flefa
I,,!eaclirlin i°BPitality for a
four months on the
own statement, had enjoyed
""herly
e_were Gorman;
and
tor, hear, and a laugh.)
"Illaheted with the artil whole, having been
1 erirs and being sup-

posed to_ know something about the manufacture of
rockets and shells, were out of charity recommended by M.
Kossuth to Mr. Hale, who consented to give them work
at eighteen shillings a week. A great deal has been made
of the statement of these men, that they were desired
not to talk in public houses of what was going on in the
factory at Rotherhithe. Now really, sir, I see nothing in
this which is not capable of satisfactory explanation. The
men might be told not to talk in public-houses, because
the work carried on might be misrepresented, as it un-
questionably has been, for I maintain that the Govern-
ment has been grossly deceived and misinformed. (Hear,
hear.) Well, sir, having heard the evidence of these poli-
tical refugees, Mr. Henry resolved not to decide the case
summarily ; in fact he was again bewildered, and being
unable to extricate himself from the difficulty by consult-
ing the " Encyclopaedia Britannica," he wisely deter-
mined to send the case over to the Surrey magistrates,
who, sitting close to Vauxhall, he thought would be good
judges of the matter. (A laugh.) So stands the case at
the present moment. Now then, sir, I world ask, is this a
worthy or a dignified course for any Government of this
country to pursue? (Hear, he^r.) If M. Kossuth and
Mr. Hale have been guilty of any conspiracy to levy war
against any of those countries with which we are now upon
terms of amity, I say indict them boldly and openly for
that conspiracy ; but if they have not been guilty of such
an offence, do not rake up an old act of Parliament that
has slept for the last 120 years even with regard to the
making of -fireworks. (Hear, hear.) But what are all
these proceedings for ? Nothing, lam sure, can be more
unpalatable to the great body of people of this country,
who look upon the whole transaction as far as it has gone
with unmitigated disgust. (Cheers.) I believe it is bring-
ing the Government, to whom we all wish well, and to
whom we are disposed to give a fair trial, into such disre-
pute with the mass of the people as few Governments have
experienced. I ask, sir, who is this transaction to please ?
The popular impression is that it is to please some foreign
Government—to please the Austrian Government ' • and,
indeed, I think we have sufficient evidence of the fact in
some of the foreign journals. (Hear.) This is a point to
which I beg to cal the attention of the noble lord the Sec-
retary of State for the Home Department. Very recently
a paragraph appeared in a Frankfort paper, headed, " The
English Police the Spies of Foreign Despots." It ran as
follows :—" It is now confirmed that the Prussian police
were most efficiently assisted in the late political arrests at
Berlin and elsewhere by repeated communications from the
police at London, without which many of their disclosures
might not have been made ; and we see a proof of the good
faith of the British Government when, through Lord
Westmoreland, it assures the Cabinet of Vienna that it
will watch over the conduct of the refugees ; and we learn
from other sources that the London police have for some
time kept a list of all the fugitives residing there, and
watch over their communications with the conti-
nent." What, sir, must Eprope think of England unless
she gives forth some contradiction of such injurious
statements? (Hear, hear.) It is quite. right that the
police of London, or any other police, should communicate
with foreign Governments, in the event of persons seeking
refuge here being guilty of felony, or murder, or something
of that sort ; but the Government has no right, or the
police have no right, to communicate with foreign Govern-
ments upon political subjects—upon any political crime
that is committed here, or may have been committed
abroad; and, indeed, our police have no right to commu-
nicate with the police of foreign Governments at all. They
were not instituted for that purpose. (Hear, hear.) But
now I am to show that Austria had really something to do
with these seizures at Rotherhithe. In the Augsburg
Gazette of the 14th April—remember Mr. Hale's property
was seized on the 13th—there appeared an article, dated
Munich, April 12, and expressed in the following terms : -
" At London revolution is allowed to take counsel and fill
her arsenals with destructive weapons, rockets, Etc.' Now,
I think it is natural to infer from this that some commu-
nication had passed between certain parties in authority
here and the informants of the Augsburg Gazette. (Hear,
hear.) So, sir, the Times was not, after all, far wrong
when it said thati the Government of this country had been
urged by Austria to look after the refugees, and that it
was determined to show its willingness to do so. (Hear,
hear.) Now, sir, I think her Majesty's Ministers, when
they are applied to by Austria or any other foreign power
on the subject of political fugitives, ought to tell the Go-
vernment appealing to them to look at the free, institutions
of this country—ought to remind them of the confiscations
of Lombardy, and the cruelties and tortures that recently
disgraced Milan and Mantua—ought to let them know that
such is not the way to gain the affections of their subjects
—and ought to return for answer to their request, that in-
terference with refugees in this country will never be sub-
mitted to by the people of England. (Cheers.) No, sir,
we want none of their Radetskys here. (Hear, hear.) I,
therefore, beg to ask whether her Majesty's Ministers
think it worth while to pursue this prosecution any further
against Mr. Hale? Mr. Hale admits that in making
rockets and shells he has violated an old act of Parliament.
He has already paid a penalty of 51. 145., of which only
one-half goes to the Crown, the other being paid over to
the informer ; and I want to know if it is the intention of
the Government to carry the prosecution further, either
against Mr. Hale or against any other person whatever?
(Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, my hon. friend has treated
this matter with his usual admixture of jocularity and argu-
ment, and certainly if there were an old act of Parliament
for prohibiting moral squibs and crackers, I think my hon.
friend would come within its provisions. (A laugh.) Now, sir,
my hon. friend charges me with being an organ and instru-
ment of foreign powers for the purpose of exercising here a
foreign police over persons in this country, and in support
of that accusation he quotes passages that he has found in
foreign newspapers, as well as passages from an English
journal. Now I beg, in the first place, to disclaim any re-
sponsibility as to anything said of me in any newspaper,
whether British or foreign ; and if my hon. friend had had
his attention directed as much as mine has happened to be,
and from time to time, to passages in foreign newspapers
in which my name was mentioned, I think he would have
found that the weight of accusation and of calumny was
very much of a different kind from that which he has
quoted. (Hear, hear.) I was told the other day that in
the searches recently made in Ttaly there was a set of dag-
gers found of English manufacture, and that the authori-
ties were indignant and incensed at the detestable and
diabolical conduct of the man who had been Minister for
Foreign Affairs in England, for on these very daggers his
name was inscribed. (A laugh.) They said " There it is
plain enough—Palmer and Son. Oh, the execrable revo-
lutionist ! to send destructive weapons inscribed with his
own name into Italy." (Great laughter). My hon. friend
has indulged in a great deal of humour in regard to the
prosecutions which I have thought it my duty to institute.
Now, I did not in the least discruise—l have never dis-
guised the ground upon which nhought it my duty to in-
stitute these prosecutions. It was not that Mr. Hale had
a few pounds of gunpowder in his possession, or carried on
the trade of making shells and rockets for ordinary pur-
poses ; but when I was informed that there was a great
collection of warlike stores accumulated in an out of the
way place, under circumstances of secrecy, and when I
coupled that with other circumstances which tended to
show that there was a purpose, the object of which was be-
yond the limits of this country, and not connected with
the legitimate interests of commerce, I felt it my duty to
inquire whether these proceedings were or were not con-
trary to law. (Hear, hear.) I was told they were con-
trary to law, and therefore I think I should have neglected
my duty in the office which I have the honour to hold if I
had not taken such steps as the law appeared to authorise
for the purpose of putting a stop to those proceedings.
(Hear, hear.) I hold that in doing that I have consulted
the honour and dignity of the country. (Hear, hear.) My,
colleagues and myself, and not only the members of the pre-
sent Government, but also the members of the late, and in-
deed of all governments, have repeatedly declared in Parlia-
ment, that while, on the one hand, foreigners who take re-
fuge in this country are entitled to every possible protection
which the laws and freedom of this realm can afford, it was
the duty of the Government, on the other hand, to pre-
vent any foreigner, as well as any British subject from,
pursuing or being concerned in any proceeding or under-
taking for the purpose of threatening the tranquility of
foreign States. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, my hon. friend
has made merry about the question whether the gunpowder
found at Rotherhithe was really gunpowder or not. That
question having been decided by a legal and competent
authority, I think I may say that I never heard of such a
quibble as that by which it was attempted to be shown
that the substance in question was not gunpowder. I think
that the magistrate was perfectly right in his decision.
With regard to the rockets, my honourable friend asks
me whether it is the intention of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to continue the proceedings which have been tom-
meaced. Now I have no hesitatien in saying that we have
no desire to press hardly in any way whatever on Mr.
Hale ; and I have no hesitation, either, in saying, as to
the last interrogatory of my hon. friend, that the evidence
we have received does not bear out or justify any pro-
ceedings against any other person, whether British or
foreign, except Mr. Hale. (Hear, hear.) But, with regard
to Mr. Hale, let the house remember how the matter
stands. The act under which Mr. Hale was proceeded
against prohibits any person from making, or using, or
selling any rockets, unless they have the consent of the
Ordnance, with the exception always of the Artillery Com-
pany and the Militia, who are permitted to make and use
rockets for the purposes of war. Under that act there are
two methods of proceeding, the one by summary convic-
tion before a magistrate, and the other by trial by indict-
ment before a court and jury. We adopted the first of
these courses as the simplest and the shortest, and the
least troublesome to any party. The case was opened ;
the evidence against Mr. Hale was satisfactory ; but the
magistrate then stopped the proceedings, and said that he
thought they ought to be referred to another court, in
order that the matter might be tried by a jury. Now,
precedent
then
te to
stopcomm
sir, I hold that, upon general principles, it is a very bad
bperfaZdthinegys coagainstmetoantryiailn.divolideuaalr:
themeace
hear.) It is liable to t grea abuse ; for you may begin pro-
ceedings without
any justifiable cause, for the purpose of
causing annoyance and trouble to individual, then,
if,
an and
if, in order to avoid discomfiture,
you stop the proceed-
ings, you give the party no
(Hear, hear.) lam opportunity of stating his case.
The party against speaking now upon general principles.
whom you acted in that manner would
have the right to proceed against the
malicious prosecution, and would Government for a
for the evil sustained by him. But
thatrfea case for remedy
speaking, and upon abstract prim' I
be so, generally
would be much stronger against the 18:s.' I think the case
present instance ; because here, what wiTletnment in the
that the Government began proceedings t said
? Why,
magis-
trate with summary jurisdiction, which were before a
the case had been stated against thestopped when
when he had had no opportunity of sayingdefendant, and
in his defence--no opportunity of shaking the anything
of witnesses, or of proving that the grounds)vidence
stated
were not sufficient to bear out the prosecution. The
caseis 'sent to a jury; but what do the Government then '.;
Why they retire from the proceeding, and say that their
case will not bear sifting before a jury; they drop the pro-
ceedings, and deprive the individual of that redress which
his character would otherwise obtain. (Hear, hear.) I
am therefore advised that it would not be fit as a precedent,
as a general precedent, or in regard to general cases, that
the proceedings against Mr. Hale !should be stopped, but
that the judgment of a competent tribunal should be ob-
tained on the matter. At the same time I have no hesita-
tion in saying, on the part of her Majesty's Government,
that I have no wish to press hardly on Mr. Hale ; we shall
be perfectly satisfied to have a decision on the law, and
that decision having taken place, Mr. Hale, I trust, will
not suffer in any way by having his case pushed to this
limit. (Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Mr. T. BUNCOMBE wished to correct a mistake into
which the noble lord had fallen. The noble lord seemed to
think that he (Mr. Buncombe) had charged him with being
a tool of Austria in this matter. He had done no such
thing. He had merely quoted the words of the Times. So
far from thinking the noble lord a tool of Austria, he had
always believed that M. Kossuth was indebted to him for
• his life and his property. The hon. member was proceed-
!