The Sun.
London, England, 1853-08-04 00:00:00

AGED BISHOPS.

Mr. MINN inquired whether the Government were
prepared to take into consideration any measure for
affording relief to bishops who from ill-health or age
were unable to dis4arge their duty, in the same way as
at present when they were suffering from mental infir-
mity.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Government would take
into consideration any suggestion likely to put an end
to any evil or inconvenience which might at present be
felt.

BUSINESS ON WEDNESDAYS.
Lord J. RUSSELL expressed a hope that the Go-
vernment orders of the day would be allowed to have
precedence on Wednesdays. .(Hear, hear.)
Mr. PHINN said he bad a motion on the paper for
that day with respect to the inspection of nunneries, but
as it was not likely to lead to any practical result this
session—he having been informed that some hon. mem-
bers had determined that no decision should be arrived
at—he was willing to concur in the suggestion of the
noble lord.
Mr. NEWDEGATE intimated that he would oppose
the withdrawal of the motion. There was a very strong
feeling on the subject in the country, and he thought
hon. members should have an opportunity of giving ex-
pression to their opinions with respect to it.
After some further conversation, the sulleet dropped.
EDUCATION BILL.

In reply to Mr. HLDFIELD,
the
Lord J. RUSSELL said he was told that if
swouldd„
cation Bill was not proceeded with, hon. membe
put off the motions which they had on the paper
for
Wednesday ; and though he had Withdeawn the bill, he
must say he had not seen any corresponding concession
on the part of hon. members. (Hear, hear.) He must
appeal to the hon. member for North Warwickshire not
to press a discussion on the motion of the hon. and
learned member for Bath. He was sure he would not
wish that the house should be occupied from twelve until
six next Wednesday to no purpose whatever. (Hear.)
He begged to say, in answer to the bon. member's ques-
tion, that it was not his intention to propose the second
reading of the Education Bill.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said he and other hon. members
were determined not to be, defeated in giving expression
to their opinions.
KILMAINHAM HOSPITAL.

In reply to Mr. VANCE,
Mr. S. HERBERT said he had seen the report of the
Commissioners of Kilmainham Hospital, but he thought
it would he better not to lay it on the table until he pro-
duced the warrant which was the root of the report.
CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.

Several amendments and new clauses were brought up
and added to this bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved an amendment to exempt
Roman Catholic charities from the operation of the bill
Sir F. THESIGER viewed with great regret and con-
siderable alarm the course now adopted by the noble
lord, because though the words were few they were preg-
nant with mighty consequences, and involved a most
important question. He certainly had a right to com-
plain of the period the noble lord had chosen for intro-
ducing so formidable a proposition. (Hear, hear.) The

bill without the exemption had received not only the
sanction of the House of Lords, but, had passed through
a committee of this house, and had been read a first and
a second time without opposition, and it was not until
just before going into committee that the noble lord in-
timated that it was his intention to propose an amend-
ment of this description, and if it had not been for
the intervention of the right honourable member
for Oxfordshire, it was possible that it would
have been carried at a time when, without using an im-
proper metaphor, he might say the greater part of the
life blood of the house had been withdrawn, and when
the house was not in a very active period of existence.
(Hear, hear.) The reason given by the noble lord for
the amendment, was the apprehension by Roman Catho-
lics, that if the investigation under the bill was extended
to them, it would be found that certain of their trusts
were illegal, under the law against superstitious uses.
But the bill had been long before the house and the
public, and it was somewhat strange that the expression
of their fears should have been delayed until now.
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord, however, might have
allayed those fears, instead of adopting and encouraging
them. (Hear, hear.) It was absurd to suppose that
any body of commissioners could, consistently with the
spirit of the present day, endeavour to abolish or defeat
trusts of this nature, merely because they came within
the law against superstitious uses. Hear, hear.) He
contended that the amendment would be mischievous
towards the Roman Catholics, and would give them no
benefit or advantage whatever, for it leavewov them
in a helpless and crippled state, an uld
d d de-
prive • • them of any opportunity of complain-
ing of any abuses or mal-administration of their
trusts. It was true the noble lord had said it was
his intention in a future session to bring Roman Catho-
lic charities under the machinery of the bill by some
special enactment ; but what security had they that he
would be 'able to fulfil his pledge ? The noble
lord was not at the head of the Government. Strictly
speaking, he was not even a member of the Govern-
ment. They knew perfectly well the opinions enter-
tained by the majority of his colleagues in the cabinet
with regard to Roman Catholics, and how could they be
secure that they might not consider the exemption of
these trusts as a part of the natural development which
ought to be given to that class of the community ?
Looking, therefore, at the state of the house, and be-
lieving that the bill would not affect Roman Catholic
charities prejudicially, he did think the best and most
prudent course to pursue was to allow the bill to re-
main as it now stood. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think the hon. and learned
gentleman was justified in opposing the amendment that
he had moved. It was true that there were defects in
the Roman Catholic charities, but the house having ad-
mitted that it would be unjust to punish the Roman
Catholics for these defects, seeing that it was from no
fault of their own that these defects had arisen. Acts
of Parliament had passed since the establishment of
these charities which related to their organisation, but
the nature of which the Roman Catholics themselves
were ignorant of until it was too late to obtain an ex-
emption in their favour. An eminent barrister of the
the Roman Catholic persuation had told him that many
of the existing Roman Catholic charities were illegal—
at least they were opposed to many of the provisions of
the existing law. For instance, the many large sums
that had been left for the performance of masses for the
souls of the dead, and it had been laid down that such
charitable bequests were at variance with the law which
related to superstitious uses. Now, many of the Roman
Catholic charities which were established for educa-
tional purposes were open to the same objection, and as
this was a question of confidence on the one hand, and
suspicion on the other, he thought the house ought to
pause before they rejected this exemption. It might be
all very well to argue that no one would ever attempt
to prosecute a Roman Catholic charity under the Super-
stitious Uses Act, but looking at the history of the past,
he thought the Roman Catholics might naturally enter-
tain great suspicion as to the future if this bill included
their charities, and he had therefore proposed that they
should be exempt from the operation of this measure.
He could not remove these apprehensions, nor satisfy
the scruples of the Protestant feeling of the coun-
try by proposing any clause now for including
Roman Catholic charities in this bill which would
not lead to great discussion, and since there was not
time 'for such discussion now, he thought it was
better to exempt these charities for the present from
the operation of this bill. The hon. and learned gen-
tleman seemed to complain that there was no guarantee
that these charities would not be permanently excluded
from the operation of this bill ; but upon that point, he
thought, the house need be under no apprehension, for
he believed it would be for the benefit of the Roman
Catholics themselves that these charities should be
placed under some such law as this, and eventually,
he believed, they would be induced to accept a similar
measure, when the law respecting superstitious uses
should have been altered or amended in their fisvour.
(Hear, hear.) He trusted, therefore, the house would
not object to admit this clause into the bill, and leave
the question of Roman Catholic charities to be dis-
posed of in a future measure, to be brought forward
within the next two years, to which period this exclu-
sion would be limited. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. NE WDEGATE opposed the exemption, as he did
not believe the opinion of any Roman Catholic barrister
was sufficient to justify the exclusion. He objected to
allowing Roman Catholic charities to remain under the
arbitrary control of Cardinal Wiseman and the clergy of
the Roman Catholic Church. Suppose the operation of
this bill, if it was extended to Roman Catholic charities,
did disclose a state of things which showed that there
were some of them opposed to the existing law, what
difficulty was there in the way of introducing a few
simple words providing for such a case, and thus pre-
vent the confiscation or alienation of Roman Catholic
trust property. Under these circumstances he protested
against this exclusion, as it would open the door still
further to the machinations of the Roman Catholic
Church, and enable Cardinal Wiseman and others of her
emissaries who came to this country charged with
penary powers to divert Roman Catholic Trusts from
their original purposes to the use of the Church of Rome
itself. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HEADLAM was glad to hear the concluding re-
mark of the noble lord the member for the City of Lon-
don, for until that announcement was made he had been
under the impression that this exclusion was to be per-
manent. It was now clear, however, so far at least as
the noble lord was concerned, that this exemption was
only to be temporary ; and he could have no difficulty,
therefore, in adopting the proposal of the Government,
upon the understanding that they would incorporate
with it the amendment which he himself had suggested,
namely, that the exemption should only extend to two
years. He would therefore conclude by moving an
addition to the clause to that effect.
Mr. BOWYER said it was a mistake to suppose that the
creation of the Roman Catholic hierarchy gave the Ro-
man Catholic bishops more control over Roman Catholic
charities than they possessed before. He accepted this
clause as amended ; and in doing so he had no objection
to declare, on behalf of the Roman Catholics, that if it
was found hereafter that this measure would ffect their
charities only to the same extent that it affected
other charities, there would be no objection to a mea-
sure being passed to bring them under its provisions.
Sir F. THESIGER was determined to divide upon
the clause, because it involved a matter of principle. It
went, in fact, the length of declaring that Roman Ca-
tholics ought to be put upon a different footing to those
of other religious bodies, and to that principle he could
never assent. (Hear.)
The house then divided, when there appeared
For the clause
Against it
Majority —ll
The clause was accordingly added to the bill.