The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-20 00:00:00

diminution in the amount. He hoped it would be ~till
urtbef decreased in future years'.
. LortlD. STUART said there was no vote on which the
peopltwOut of doors- looked with greater suspicion than
this: '-/They-did not know how it was employed, or what
nameless gentlemen gave their services in consideration of
part'ef it. The dislike felt at it generally throughout the
country was not likely to be lessened at present, in conse-
quenee -of the suspicions of revelations which had spread
throtigh the country with regard to secret services, and the
watching'and inquiring about the proceedings of different
individuals. • He was not going to object to the vote at
present; but he thought the house had a right to as much
information as it was possible to give with regard to it.
He toped the Government would tell the committee
whetheetho'sum now asked for was the same as last year.
Mr. A -PELLATT begged also to ask whether any part
of the money went to remunerate the detective police?
Lord J. RUSSELL said the sum asked for this year was
e the same as that of last year ; and no part of the
money went to the detective police.
The,vote was then agreed to.
' Votes of 216,4201., for providing stationery, printing,
binding, and paper for the two Houses of Parliament, and
the several departments of Government in England, Scot-
and, Ireland, and the colonies, and of 16,0001. for law
charges paid by the Solicitor to the Treasury in England,
Word agreed to without discussion.
O a sum of 17,700/. being proposed for sheriffs' ex-
penses, officers of the Court of Exchequer, &c.
Mr.'Wlsz, Lord 1). STUART, and Mr. M. CLIAMBERS
severally expressed a wish to know how this sum, which
seemed a large one was appropriated ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was principally a sum which
had been usually paid to sheriffs for charges which they in-
curred in the execution of their office which they out
of. heir own pockets in the first instance, pa
andofwihich
they sunsequently rendered an account.
The vote was then agreed to,

A vote of 8,8301. was then proposed to defray the charges
of the salaries of the Commissioners of the Courts for the
Relief of Insolvent Debtors.

After a short discussion the vote was agreed to.
Tho next vote was for a sum of 107,4051. to defray the
law expenses of Scotland.

On the proposal of a sum of 56,9501. to defray the charges
of criminal prosecutions in Ireland,
Colonel DUNNE said that he considered that if the sys-
tem of equalisation of taxation were adopted with respect
to Ireland, the same principle of equality ought to be ap-
plied to the expenses of the country, and particularly in
the case of criminal prosecutions and law charges, and he
would be glad to receive an assurance from the Govern-
ment that the same principle should be applied with regard
to the charges of prosecution in Ireland as prevailed in
England.
Mr. M`MAHON trusted that some alteration would be
mule in the present system with regard to the appoint-
ment of Crown prosecutors. He believed that at present
the failure of justice was in too many instances to be
traced to the fact of effete nominees of the Attorney-Gene-
ral having to contend with young, active, and more expe-
rienced men than themselves.
Mr. BROTHERTON wished to know if the hon. and
gallant member for Portarlington would wish to see equa-
lity between the two countries carried out so as to include
the payment of the constabulary in Ireland from local rates
as in this country, rather than be borne as at present by
the Consolidated Fund ?
Colonel DUNNE would have no objection to that change,
provided everything else were placed upon the same
footing.
Sir J. YOUNG thought that the whole subject of the
local taxation of Ireland was a question well worthy the
attention of gentlemen connected with Ireland, and pro-
mised the best consideration of the Government to any
well-considered proposition on the subject. He was not
prepared to agree in the conclusion of the hon. member for
Wexford (Mr. M'Mahon), as to the propriety of adopting
in Ireland the same system as that which prevailed in Eng-
land with respect to publics prosecutions, rather than the
one which at present existed there, and which had been
found to work so well in Scotland. He thought it desir-
able•that there should be public officers in Ireland to con-
duct prosecutions ; but did not consider that the present
system was a perfect on?..

Mr. SCULLY trusted that the attention of the Govern-
ment would be directed to some mode of making the office
of Crown prosecutor in Ireland more efficient than it was
at present.
The vote was the agreed to.
A sum of 36,0001. was next proposed for defraying the
expenses of the metropolitan police force in Dublin.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the vote on the ground
that the expenses of that force, in addition to that of the
constabulary, ought not to be borne by the Consolidated
Fund.

•The vote was agreed to, as was also a vote for 240,0001.
to defray charges formerly borne upon the county rate.
On the proposal to vote a sum of 16,8391. for the charges
of inspection and general superintendence over all the pri-
sons of the United Kingdom,
Mr. LUCA Bs, uggested the postponement of the vote, on
account of the importance of the subject—and which at
that hour of the night could not be fully discussed— as
affecting prisoners of the Roman Catholic persuasion.
Sir J. YOUNG said it was important that the votes
should be proceeded with, and if there was any.informa-
tion which the hon. member might require on the subject,
he should be happy to afford it him.
Sir DE LACY EVANS approved of the consideration of
this question being delayed, on the ground that it was not
expected that the house would have got into committee of
supply so early.
Lord J. RUSSELL admitted that if the previous busi-
ness upon the paper had occupied the greater portion of
the evening, it would have been necessary to postpone the
committee of supply ; but, having got into the committee
of supply, he could not admit the necessity of not going on.
They were now going through the votes regularly, and he
hoped that if honourable members had objections to any
particular votes they would now state them. Notice had
been given that the house would go into supply this
evening.
Mr. WILLIAMS said he should object to any votes
being taken after twelve o'clock. [lt was now a quarter to
eleven.]
Lord J. RUSSELL said he did not propose to take any
votes after 12 o'clock. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LUCAS put it to the committee to say whether it
was not perfectly reasonable, under the circumstances, that
the chairman should now report progress, and ask leave to
sit again. (Cries of " Oh, oh,' and "Go on.") There
must be a lengthened discussion on this vote ; but it was
impossible it could be satisfactory at so late an hour to-
night. If, therefore, no other course was left open to him,
he should take a division to-night, and the discussion on
the bringing up of the report. (A laugh.) Ho moved that
the chairman report progress.
Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to take the discus-
sion on the bringing up of the report ; but he could not
consent to stop the progress of the committee now, merely
because the honourable gentleman was not ready to make
his statement.

The vote was then agreed to.
On the next vote, that the sum of 407,6671., be granted
to defray the charge of the Government prisons and convict
establishments at home,
Mr. LUCAS moved that the chairman do report pro-
gress. (Cries of " oh, oh.")
Lord J. RUSSELL trusted the committee would not
agree to the proposal. (Hear, hear.) There was certainly
no reason for reporting pro,greis so early as eleven o'clock.
Mr. LUCAS said the noble lord had put the case as if
he (Mr. Lucas) was not prepared to bring on the question.
He had not put it on that. ground, but upon the ground
that it would lead to a longer debate than there was time
for this evening, and because several hon. gentlemen who
wished to take part in the discussion were now absent. In
the details appended to the vote he found several sums,
amounting to 4,5201.,, for chaplains and other religious in-
structors in these prisons. In the vote for Irish prisons
sums were included for Protestant chaplains, for Roman
Catholic Chaplains, and for Presbyterian chaplains ; in
other words, in Ireland the fact was recognised that there
were cyiuiinals of different religions, and some sort of pro-
vision was thus made for their religious instruction and re-
formation. I3ut in the vote for Government prisons in
England not a single sixpence was asked for the payment
of Roman Catholic chaplains, nor was anything paid in
the local or county prisons for Roman Catholic chaplains,
though a large sum was proposed to be voted for the main-
tenance of prisoners in those gaols. Co inty gaols were
entirely under the management- of the Secretary of State
for the Home Department • the rules were sent to him
every year, and any alterations, amendments, or additions
which he made were obligatory and binding upon the, local.
authorities. County prisons, as well as Goveinmetit
sons, were therefore, as regarded this question, under the
mangement of the Home Secretary. What provision, then,
was made for the religious instruction of Roman Catholic
prisoners ? None either in England or Scotland—with the
exception of Millbank. Now he wanted to have an oppor-
tunity of laying the whole of this case before the house in
detail, for it was impossible, without discussion, that so
gross an injustice and absurdity should continue to be per-
petrated. The motive for prison discipline was reforma-
tion—but with regard to Roman Catholic prisoners, refor-
mation ' was began with a profession of hypocrisy. The
case was a grave one—it would require an answer from
the Government, and it would certainly lead to a length-
ened discussion on the pait of gentlemen who took the same
view as himself. He hcd, therefore, no alternative but to
press his motion. To take the division now and the dis-
eusiori afterwards was an absurdity, and he had only pro-
posed it by way of joke. _ _

Mr. V. -SMITH saki the proposition to report progress
was unreasonable and unusual. At the same time, if the
honourable gentleman was determined to state the case on
this mbtion, as well as on the bringing up of the report,
the loss of time would be very great. Under such cir-
cumstances, therefore, it would be better for his noble
friend to postpone the present vote, and proceed with
the others. (Hear, hear, hear.) There must be some
discussion upon subjects arising out of this vote, which
would require some explanation from his noble friend
the Home Secretary. There was an increase of
120,0001. in the vote for special service to provide ac-
commodation for convicts, in consequence of the cessa-
tion of transportation. There had been no discussion in
this house on that subject; and, from what had passed in
another place, it was left in doubt in what position the
question of transportation stood. There must, therefore,
be a discussion in which the Government would state what
their_ vrews were with regard to secondary punishments.
Lord J. RUSSELL had.no objection to the course sug-
g°asrtp ??3' his right hon. friend. (Hear, hear.) With re-
fcie j'" important subject alluded to by his right hon.
earl ',oelb was undoubtedly uesirable that on some rather
in ttis lacaaoulsoen the views of the Government should be stated o
It would be necnosthe question of transportation. (Hear.)
subject; and in lueoftz,before long to bring in a bill on that
vernment would
stated
by his noble friend the Score-
The vote was then witted Department.
The following votes were
next agreed to without discus-
sion :
1(10,4p51. for the expense of the
prison-
ers in county gaols, the philanthropic
of
.I.c institution and
lunatic 'asylums, and the expenses of the removal of con-
victs.
of canvc 518/.
tsfor expenses connected with the transportation
. _

241,1541. for the expense of the convict establishments in
the colonies.
260,000/. for public education in Groat Brit
182,0t3/., the sum required by the Commissionersi of Na-
tional Education in Ireland.
44,4761. for the department of szience and art, including
geological survey of Great Britain and Ireland, and
museums of geology, London and Dublin.
6,340/. for the expenses of the Royal Dublin Society.
Oa the motion that 2,006/. be voted to defray the charge
of the salaries and allowances granted to certain professors
in the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge,
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the vote. lie understood
that the income of one college was 150,0001. per annum,
and that' of another 180,0001. per annum ; and ho had no
hesitation in saying that establishments possessing such
vast amounts of wealth ought to be ashamed of coming
upon the public taxes for these votes. A return obtained
a few years ago showed that only two, three, or four per.