The Sun.
London, England, 1838-06-07 00:00:00

COPYRIGHT BILL.

Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD having moved that the House
should resolve itself into a Committee on this Bill, -
Mr. WARBURTON said that he believed that the Hon.
and Learned mover of the Bill had some alterations to pro-
pose, and he would therefore ask him whether he had any
objection to go into Committee pro forma, that the alterations
might be printed, and that the House might have a better
opportunity of considering them ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL cordially joined in the
recommendation of his Hon. Friend the Member for Bridport.
As the Bill stood there were many difficulties, especially
with regard to encyclopaedias. Mr. Black, an eminent book-
seller of Edinburgh, well known to the Speaker—( Cheers
and laughter)—info,med him that as one cf the clauses was
worded he ( Mr. Black) would suffer much with regard to
encyclopmdias by the retrospective clause. Many of the
articles were entirely new, and at the expiration of the twenty
years those articles might be claimed by the authors or their
heirs, the whole encycioptedia would fall to pieces.—( Hear,
hear.) His Hoe. and Learned Friend was willing to alter
the Bill so as to remove this objection ; but there were other
clauses which also required correction, and he hoped that his
Learned Friend would agree to the proposal which had been
made, and which would promote the ultimate success of the Bill.
Sir F. POLLOCK agreed with his Learned Friend in
suggesting the committing of the Bill pro forma only. He
was prepared to oppose certain parts of the Bill on behalf of
the publishers in London, whose interests ought not to be
overlooked ; but if there was no objection to the present sug-
gestion, he would not then further trouble the llouse.
Mr. J. JERVIS must take care that the interests of the
printers were not injured, and he agreed in the recommenda-
tion of the Hon. Member for Bridport.
Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD was not opposed to take the
course which seemed to meet the wishes of the House ; but
he thought that it would be most convenient for hint then to
state the chief alterations which he would make, because he
believed that they were simple, and that their statement
would serve to tranquillize the apprehensions of most respect-
able persons who entertained great fears as to the Bill. The
chief objection of the publishers was to the clause which was
most improperly termed the retrospective clause.—(Cheers.)
He ( Mr. Sergeant Talfourd) had never consented to that
term, nor was it correct, because the Bill sought only to se-
cure to authors of the highest merit the advantage of their
own labours, and that these copyrights which acre now
existing should not be subject to the injustice of the present
system. He had, therefore, proposed that the existing term
of copyright should be extended, and that the authors
should retain that additional copyright in their works, and
that when the present copyright had been assigned the pub-
lishers should be content with that interest for which they had
bargained and paid, fur it was not the publisher, but the author
to whom the extended term ought to be given. To the justice
of that principle he still adhered, but he had received fi-om most
respectable parties and eminent publishers so many corn-
plaints of practical inconveniences resulting from granting an
extended term to authors who had assigned their whole inte-
rest, that, after considering many expedients, and having tried
in vain to find a provision by which justice might be done to
these gentlemen, he had determined to propose that the clause
should take effect only where the author had reserved the
whole or part of the interest in the copyright, and that where
the author had absolutely parted with his interest, the term
should cease.—( Hear.) tie bad reason to believe that this
alteration would be perfectly satisfactory to the gentlemen to
whom he had referred, and that in accepting this concession
they had gained nothing for themselves—that they wished for
no boon ; and he was bound to say that during the opposition
which they had given to the Bill, he had personally received
the greatest courtesy, and that they had exhibited the most
enlarged views of the interests of literature and of authors.
—( Cheers.) He believed that this alteration would meet his
Learned Friend's objections with respect to encyclopaedias,
but he had a special clause to bring forward upon that point,
and also some other alterations. He wished only that what
was right with respect to this great measure should be done,
acid though delay was inconvenient to himself in consequence
of his professional engagements, yet he was quite willing to
defer to the sense of the House.—( Hear.)
Mr. HUME was sure that it was but reasonable that the
alterations should be made, and that the Bid with its amend-
ments should be printed ; and although he consented that this
step should be taken he would vote against the Bill in every
stage, for whilst it would only do good to 1 in 100, it would do
great injustice to the other 499.---( Loud laughter.) Ile felt
strongly that only 1 in 500 would be benefitted, and that the
Bill would be disadvantageous to the other 499.

Sir EDWARD SUDDEN, understanding that the Bill
would only be committed pro forma, with the view of intro-
ducing alterations, some of which would meet his objections,
unless any other gentleman wished to divide the House, would
not now stop this arrangement. Still, however, the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny was not more opposed to the principle
of the Bill than he ( Sir E. Sugden) was, and he intended to
oppose its progress in every future stage.—( Cheers.) He did
not intend on that occasion to enter into any discussion, but he
would briefly state his opinion of the abstract principle of the
Bill. He was one of those who thought that there was no
common law copyright in the author beyond the manuscript
when it was written, or whilst it remained in his own posses-
sion. He had come to this determination after much consi-
deration, and he thought that the case was clearly distinguish-
able from a patent right.—( Hear, hear.) He had taken some
trouble in drawing amendments to the Bill, but he would not
tender them upon that occasion, because the only question then
between himself and the Learned Sergeant was, whether the
Bill should be passed or not. He would oppose the Bill as
long as be could, because he believed that it ought not to be
passed ; but if it were passed, he would, as he had ever done,
bow with respect to the opinion of the majority, and endeavour
to make the Bill as serviceable as possible to the public.—
(Cheers.) If the Bill should meet with the support of a ma-
jority of the House, he would then propose his amendments,
one of which was to cut down the term of sixty years to a term
of forty years ; not, however, that he at all approved of so
long a term as forty years, for he would only give a term of
seven years beyond the death of the author ; he would allow
an original term of twenty-eight years, as the author now had,
and if he should survive, then an extended term for his whole
life. There was, however, this difficulty : if the author
should live long, and his books should be in demand, he might
provide for his family ; but, in case he should die early, this
might be frustrated. He ( Sir E. Sugden) would, therefore,
give an absolute term of seven years after the author's death,
which would be sufficient to enable the family to send forth
a perfect edition of his works, and thus to make a provi-
sion for them.--( Hear, hear, hear.) He did not quite un-
derstand whether his Learned Friend meant that the extended
term should, under all circumstances, revert to the represen-
tatives of the author, and that he should not have power to
dispose of it. His Bill was doubtfully worded, and he trusted
that it would be made definite. He agreed that the publishers
ought not to complain, if they obtained all that they pur-
chased ; but why should not the same terms be extended to
poor authors, to whom it would be of greater benefit, as were
given to those who were rich enough to retain their copyright
in their own hands ?—( Hear, hear, ) He represented neither
authors, nor printers, nor publishers ; he stood there to do
his duty only as a Member of Parliament, and he trusted that
he should on some future occasion be able to state grounds
which would satisfy the House that the Bill ought not to be
allowed to proceed.
Sir R. INGLIS said that if he ever had reason to com-
plain, it was with his Learned Friend for tempting the House
into a general discussion upon this Bill; and as his Learned
Friend had stated his unqualified opposition to the Bill, so he
( Sir R. Inglis) would say that he had been and still was its
unqualified supporter—(Cheers)—and with this observation he
would content himself upon this occasion.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had no objection to the course
suggested by his Learned Friend, but he confessed that
lie viewed with no small degree of apprehension any legisla-
tion upon this subject.—( Cheers ) It was not, however, on
account of the publishers that he entertained any apprehen-
sion. He had seen some persons concerned in the most
eminent publishing houses, and he thought that what had
been stated by them with respect to the Bill was only just
and reasonable, and he thought that the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman admitted that what was just and reason-
able should be admitted. He (Lord John Russell) did feel
apprehensive, however, that when the expectations of the
authors and of the publishers were satisfied, there would be
no small neglect of the interests of the public. —( Cheers.)
With regard to the interests of authors, the Learned Gen-
tleman was ready to concede that those who had bought the ge-
neral interest of the author in the copyright ought to enjoy
the whole right ; and he ( Lord J. Russell) knew one author
of no inconsiderable merit, who, Inivin parted with the whale
of his copyright, thought that he had no ight by act of Parlia-
ment to resume what he bad sold.--(Ches-cs.) Then again

with regard to the interests of the publishers", the Lcarne
Gentleman would doubtless take care there should be n.
distinction between future lecrlts and those in which the pa..
fishers had already acquired an interest. Still be (Lord J•
Russell) saw great danger in legislating upon a lam' by which!.
though incomplete._ the interests of authors, of publishers, end
of the public had been adjusted. But there did seem to
ham
the danger that the new law might make provisions by IT"'"
in the end the public, who were not the parties the most s..`arP:
sighted in such matters, might find that the great damage "r" 5
done not o ily to their own interests, but to the general
tcr.sts of literature, and the progress of information and keowe
ledge. It was proposed to give an author a longer time with
his work, and then to leave it for a certain time to hi;
heir; and executors. The Right Honourable and Learned
Gentleman (Sir E. Sugden) had pointed out several of the
objections that might arise from this ; but there was one which
had not been as yet mentioned. It was to he considered that'
the question of copyright was not a mere question of tereet
perty, but one into which questions of opinion might arise. I
might chance that the heirs of an author might ecte: tats opinions
political or religious, opposed to those maintained in the work,
and might in consequence think it advisable that the work
should be suppressed, and the result would be that the pub-
he would be deprived of the work altogether.
He would oil
pose the case of the prose works of Milton coming into the
hands of a person who differed with the writer's ontnie''s re-
specting the royal cause during the civil ;var. Would ar:l74
man contend that the public would not have had great a'
just cause fer complaint had they been suppresses COry
sequence of such a circumstance? He was firmly ;'°l/..
vinced that no Bill lied ever been proposed of more co"'
sequence, or which required more mature consideretiott,
than the present.—( Hear, hear.) Looking at the preee4
state of the law, although it might not be very diffierillt
to make out some eases of hardship as having arisen from it ins
regard to the works of a few persons of great eminence as'
authors, he must say he was notwithstanding strongly
of opinion that on the whole the interests of authors and the-
public gentel(?), were under it very well provided for, and he-
saw great difficulty in any attempt to frame an alteration
which was likely to place the matter, as regarded ett Wir"
ties interested, in a better position than it now occep4gli
The Honourable and Learned Sergeant had stated se"rad
of the hardships which 'pressed on authors, and had suggeste
as many remedies ; but there were many cases of hardshiy
which be had not at all touched upon, and which he (Lord .0-
Russell) firmly believed no legislation could remteeee
should only, in conclusion, endeavour to impress on OW H°ll^..,
and Learned Gentleman the non-advisibility of proceedinf
legislate upon the subject without most mature considera:ikeo %
for if they proceeded hurriedly, and without duly eveiginW,
the interests and claims of all parties, he very much feare9
they might he led into a coarse which not only might be co 4"
chicv ous to the public generally, but injurious to the prceNel:
tion of these works of great and important interest, of wbse"
no country had been favoured with more than England. ,
Mr. PR AED thought it very unfortunate that the Noy
Lord should not have taken an earlier opportunity
of expresP
ing his sentiments with regard to the principles of the rne4‘v.
sure, which he sincerely hoped, despite of the tone cif
Noble
Noble Lord's remarks, might yet pass into a law.
Mr. BAINES quite agreed with the Noble Lord in StrJek.',
ing that in the drawing up of the Bill sufficient attention lk
not been paid to the interests of the public. For his part P 4
was perfectly convinced that there never was a Bill introduceinto Parli; ment so fraught with mischief to the public intereisat
as the Bill now before the House.—( Hear, hear.) He
property in the nature of copyright, and he had some OP'
rience in that description of property, and if lie were lu
suit but his own interests he should be favourable to the
He, however, so strongly felt the objections which mightlsr
urged against it, in regard to its effect upon the interests -
the public, that he felt it to be his duty to give it every oPP
sition in his power.
Lord DUNGANNON thought great praise was due to the'
Learned Sergeant for his efforts to throw some light upon.ilt
subject of copyright, and sincerely hoped those efforts Wig
be crowned with success.
Mr. Sergeant TA LFOUR D confessed he had not eePeeteacle
that the Noble Lord, after allowing the principle of the meat
sure to be discussed during two sessions, should only then„
the eleventh hour awake from his apathy to object to rte ,pole
positions. He should not then attempt to answer the ryow
Lord's observations, but on that day fortnight he should ".
to proceed with the Committee, and then he should cella° .
endeav
The our to reply to them. the
Bill was then committed pro forma, after which
Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit aP
that day fortnight.
LORD'S-DAY BILL.
On the motion of Mr. PLUMPTRE, tne Lord's-day. di
ta
was committed pro forma, (with the view of being Pre°, ore
with amendments), and ordered to be further consider a
the 26th instant.
• MARRIED WOMEN'S BILL.
Mr. LYNCH moved the second reading of the tarried
Women's Bill. a as an
Sir E. SUGDEN opposed the Bill; and moeee,, siteamendment, that it be read a second time that 11°Y
tr. ont hs.

Mr. LYNCH replied.
Tile House then divided—
For the amendment 56
Against it 2l
Majority against the second reading —3s
HIGH SHERIFFS BILL.
On our admission to the gallery we found
The AT TORNE Y. G ENE RA L opposing this Bill. One
of the clauses forbade the Sheriff to go out to meet the
Judges, and prescribed that he should meet them at their
lodgings. Now, he was attached to the present escort, inas-
much as it was an old custom—(Cheers from the Opposition)
and one which was at least harmless, and was, in the cpini°
of Mr. Justice Blackstone, calculated to inspire a due respect
towards the representative of her Majesty. He felt bollad!
to move that the Bill should be read a second time that
day three months.
*After a few words from Sir G. Strickland, Mr. J. feri''
Mr. Sergeant Jackson, and several others,
offeCrueldona fewelD Awl,o7rldEs S
in, br ye
ply, and
dthe
saidßill t h hadthat
feelingb e n
thein t r:odnusceeLdoer,
the House to be against him, he certainly should not press t"
measure any further.
The amendment was then agreed to without a division.
APPRENTICESHIP SYSTEM.
Mr. PE ASE moved for " papers relating to the state of
the hospital on plantation Bulthyock, in the colony of Of z?,k
Guiana, and to certain legal poceedings connected there:,ch",:i
as contained in the Guvernment Notices' inserted in the itogh
Gazette, under date March 20, 1838; also of the names of the
justices constituting the court before which such proceedinna_
were heard. Copies of correspondence between them issibe
ries in the colony of British Guiana, or any of them, an e 0
late Sir James Carmichael Smith, as, Governor, on the suhi
ig-
of certain restrictions imposed by authority upon the '
sa:ci
sionaries, or any of them, as to the exercise of his or their r
gious duties. Copy of any petition, memorial, letter, or aPPe`'ci
cation from planters in British Guiana, or any party comic:: a
therewith, for permission to resume the use of the whip the
stimulus to labour in that colony. Copies of despatches from re-
late Governor, or the acting-Governor of British Guianit.o_lt
lative to the rejection of certain Bills, presented to the (-; °lb
of Policy by the late Governor, Sir James Carmichael SonlYor
and the Attorney-General, and the message of the Govicratio
to the said Court of Policy thereupon. Copy of disPa Gle-
from the Mauritius, in answer to the dispatch of Lord
flow
nclg, dated sth August, 1835, on the subject of the inaa.c_iped
emancipation of 2,000 negroes, unjustly and illegally Copy of
as apprentices subsequently to August I, 183-I. C4)J),lr-
petit:on or memorial for the removal of the Honourabl,Pe.
and Justice Scotland from his office in the island of TrinicisCorde
the correspondence connected therewith. Copy of any f food
in Council or correspondence relative to the allowance of
to apprenticed labourers in the island of Trinidad." r, w.ct
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed cut
the House adjourned at twelve o'clock.

• Aof
We see by the London journals that on Wrednes`.,,,lit
at Covent garden Market, green peas, of which there was only one;. 63d •
basket in the market, were 30s. per quart, asparagus, very fin, s 10'
per bundle, French beans (is. per 100, mushrooms 9.5. per P°ttle.cs al'
Paris, green peas are to be had for 2s. 6d., and the other vegetable
most in the same proportionl—Galignani's Messenger,

EIGHT-DAY CLOC,,iefare
to strike the Hours and Half-hours, Five Guineas each. .`""for,
in elegant cases, about 7/- inches high, suitable either to 01 sA'
bracket or mantel-piece, and are Warranted, at T. C°Lood°
VORY'S, Working Goldsmith, &c. &c., 47, Cornhill,
f a detailed the
(Seven Doors from Gracechurch-strect).
priNce.sl3o.f—sAilypearmppiahtlee,t
peolnatteadinGinogoddzwwitaitgeshaensd,
had gratis, or will be fora arded in answer to a post-pa

...
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B I R TII S. wirao'
On the 2d inst., in Portland-glace, the lady of Jamesof a
Esq.O, of a son. herroall'
°f
n the 4th inst., the lady of the Rev. James --
daughter. laaY
On the 2d inst., at Tees Cottage, near Darlingtonthe
Thos. Brown, Esq., of a son.
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• .
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MARRIED. fli 1 r• B-
On the 2d inst., at St. James') Church, Clerkenwe"' 1 elcleA
Wilson Challener, of Newcastle-on-Tyne to Sarah Ann'
daughter of J. Dennett, Esq., of Pentonville.

D lED.
On the 3d inst., at Cheltenham th Dowager Lady
ton, aged 62. ' e $V
On the 2cl inst., at Drayton Beauchamp, the Rev. Charles
muel \Voodd, eldest son of the late Rev.ar°3, wood& aged 43' ;„, his
On the 30th nit., at Bordeaux, B.
Trail,' Esil' -
Henry Grant
35th year. Belle
On the '2d inst., in London, Vincent El. of
Vaughan, s '
Hatch House, Henle
y-upon-Thames. c Anslie,
On the od • - inst., at Woolwich, aged 16 months, George 1
second son of Captain P. Sandilands, R. A. •eut•
On then 15th of April, o h.the Arauritius, Li ,
nis passage from - . /4,00,
F. W. B. Al'Leod, 35th Regiment,-only f Captain 3
son o
Chelsea Hospital.
On the 3d inst., at Twickenham,Mrs. Anna
aged
aged 90. Southarer
On the 4th inst., Jane, widow of S. Palmer, Esq., of George'
street, Portman-squar ed 59
oth 3', 1 1 e,
ag
.
n e ,t i u t.. at Llydiade, Cardiganshire, George
Parry, Esq., aged 52. of
On the 4th inst., in Soho-square, Stanley Richard, infant son
Osborne Delano Osborne, Esq. of oTniOn the 2d inst.. at Chelsca, Elizabeth Laurie, formerly
both Bell, widow of Wm. Bell, Esq., Ayleshain, Norfolk, born th°
4th of June, 1769. Da
At Peckham-grove, on the 4th inst., Harriott Sarah, seco
daughter of the late H. J. Chalke, Esq _—..
Willianig

London : 'Printed and Published by 2,IURDO ,
112, strand, at Tita Sun Office, No. 112, Strand, in the coung
of Middlesex.--Thursday, June 7, 1838. .