The Sun.
London, England, 1838-05-25 00:00:00

SCOTCH CHURCH.

Mr. BAINES presented petitions from Bolton, in Lancashire, and a
dozen other places, against any additional endowment to the Church of
Scotland; also four petitions for the amendment of the Factories Bill;
and three petitions for the abolition of Negio apprenticeship. • •
Si! E. WILMOT presented a petition from Wales for the abolition of
Negro renticeship.
On the inot2. of Sir F. TRENCH, -a return was ordered of the quan-
tity of si ; k goods imported for home consumption from the sth June,
1833 to 1838.
that on this day fortnight he should
Captaiik,MATHEW gave moth::
bring forward a motion on the subject of the claims of the Spanish Auxi-
liary Legion.
Captain BOLDER() gave notice that he sliouiS move for a Select
Committeeto consider the petition of Lieut. Gill, presepted this day.

NEGRO APPRENTICESHIP.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL begged to ask the Hon. Baronet the Mem-
ber for Warwickshire, whether he intended to move for leave to bring
in h Bill, or to take any other measures in consequence of the resole.
tion adopted by the House on 'Tuesday night?
Sir E. WILMOT said his answer to the Noble Lord would, in a great
measure depend on his reply to a question which lie (Sir E. Wilmot)
would put to him. The Commons of England had come to a resolutioa
fur the immediate and entire abolition of Negro apprenticeship. It was
a great national question—one of the greatest that had for years come
before that House-Lhe would, therefore, ask the Noble Lord, whether
it was his intention to do' anything to carry that resolution into erect,
or to annul or rescind it ?

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said—Mranswer to .the Hon. Baronet is;
that considering that the motion of the 'Hon. Baronet the Member tae
Yorkshire, *to the same. effect, 'was decided in a very full House
against that proposition, it is my opinion that it is net tecessary for the
' Government,to take any steps to annul or rescind the resolution adopted
'the other evening. Lstated already on, a late, and esti on a former
occasion, that when the, Bill was introi.;',oced the Government would give
it most strenuous opposition; and theefore it cannot be expected
that they will move for leave to bring in a Bill in pursuance of that reso-
lution. But this I will say, that if the Hon. 13aront follows up that
resolution,' by moving for 12avc to bring in a Bill, lie 6;2411 have the
earlicst.day it is in my power to • afford to enable hint to do so. I may
sate that Monday newt, should that day suit him, will be at his disposal
follow up that resolution.
Sir E. WILMOT said that the House was aware that a qrMstion of
such magnitude, in the hands of so humble an individual, required ITreat
and deliberate consideration ; he, .therefore, begged to ti.ll the Noble
Lord that he should not tonight inform him of the course which he
should adopt, but on Monday next lie would give him a direct answer.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL could only say that he really hoped that the
Hon. Baronet would give him a distinct declaration at the earliest pos-
sible
moment.—(Hear, hear.) The lion. Baronet intet be aware that
in taking the course he had taken in regard to that question, the deter-
mination whether that resolution was to be left on the Journals of the
House by him, without any purpose, or whether the House would sup-
port its decision for leave to bring in a Bill, was of the utmost importance
to the West Indies, and to the peace and welfare of those apprenticed
Negroes.
Sir E. 'WILMOT would add, not only to the peace, but to the pre.
serration of the West Indies; and nothing should prevent his giving
the earliest possible intimation of his intention. The Noblt Lord might
depend on this, ihat the principle of that resolution would 'be strictly
adhered to in any determination that might be come to.
Lord J. RUSSELL wished merely to observe that this resolution
was carried on Tuesday after considerable notice—indeed lie might say,
that the Honourable Baronet had given notice previous •to the.
former discussion—(Sir E. Wilmot, in November last), —and
therefore, although he might like to coo stilt those with whom he actelf,,
he did hope that by to.morrow (Friday) the Hon. Baronet would be able
to state his intention. ,

Mr. GLADSTONE wished to put another question. He understood
that' he intended to follow up that resolution fully, and he entirety
concurred in the propriety of doing so. He wished, know from the.
lion. Bart.—and it would be for him to give an answer or not—if the
Hon. Bart, was aware of the interests invblved in the tltrestion; and as
the packet sailed for the West Indies on the 31st instant—(Hear,
hear)—he wished lam to.give a promise to bring the question to an
issue before that packet carried out the news to thd colonies.—(Hear )
Sir ROBERT PEEL said, as the subject was one of great importance,
he trusted there would be a rigid adherence to forms.
Sit: E. WILMOT said that the Hon. Gentleman. had mistaken the
answer lie had given. What he had said was, that on Monday next he
would certainly give the'.Noble Lord an answer to his question, or to-
morrow if he possibly could.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said it was to be regretted that on a
matter of such value to a class of her Majesty's subjects, and
one which was particularly open to excitement, arising from
false expectations, that the Hon. Baronet was not prepared to
state the course he intended to adopt. He would put out of
question the subordinate consideration of the interest of the West
nrovrict..rs, but. he wished to call the attention
.of the House
to t state of the :•plucniicr ..:nd the pcssibi'it yof their being led into
iiVo a violatinu of the ►aw. If the lion. 1:a-onet had stated to-night
that be meant to bring forward measurer, there would be an op-
portunity of full discussion; if he had stated it was his intention
to ask for leave to introduce. a J3lll, it might have prevented the
iniselikf and the consequences he . anticipated; but supposing he
should state that he should be content with having the reso-
lution on the proceedings of the House, then, unless some
11otie was adopted by which the sense of the lict.se could be expressed,
the proWhility would be that such misconception, S might arise as to nen-
der it ilec.:;;sary for the best interests of humanity at mice to declare

,hat the biLutiou of the House ill Commons was upon the subject.
Mr. BAINES said that it was not the intention of the Hon. Baronet
to detain the House beyond Monday night—and he had had added; if
possible, he would make thedeclaration to-mc trow, After such a de:6/(ra-
tion as that had been made, upon a subject requiring so much deliberation,
it was not necessary that he should be urged further, but tharthe matter
5i0.:14 be left fairly to his thscretion, under the assurance that he would
mirsue the course that would be most likely to tend to the welfare of the
:Vest India proprettirs idid the slaves themselves.
Mr. GI4AHSIC NE said that the Hon. Baronet had totally evade&
his question. He wished :o kilo,. whether the Hon. Baronet would go,
so far as to nssnre him that if he brought forward any measure upon tins
subject he would do so before thereat packet sailed, on the 31st of the
esent month ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL whited to know when he was' to Under-
stand the lion. Baronet won d state the course. he intended to ,:dopt
it E WILMOT said that be would c,taiely state what course he
pursue.either on Monday, or, if possible, to-morrow night, nd
1,.• would undertake, in addition, that any measure he might bring
for,va,d should 1.1, llf such a nature as the forms of the House required.
Lord J: RUSSELL thought that the Hon. Baronet might he prepared
to give him an answer to morrow ; if he did, he was ready to net him
on this subject on Monday. If, however, the Hon. Barctiet was not pre_
pat ed to take that course, he should reserve to himself the right cd stat-
ing to.morrew what course he thought it would become the duly of the
ciovernment to adept.—(Cheers.)

DANISH CLAIMS.

Mr. CRESWELL then rose to Mug the petition on.the above
subject under. the consideration of toe atiouse. „Before he . stated
the circumstances which had led to the petition, it because Lien
to cube some apology for his presumption in undertaking- such
a duty. Not long after -he Lad the honour of a seat is, that.
House the petition was sent to him, aid he pre;oo!ed ir, as a matter
of course. He was then applied to to go further, ~n,l bring the ques-
tion before the House. fie was disposed to decline such a duty,
but it was represented to him that the first signature to the
petition was that of the largest firm in the town he had the
honour to - represent,. and that many of the other names attached
to it- were those of merchants of Hull, a town with which he had
long the honour of an official connection. Though he thought the matter
would have been better in the hands of a snore experienced Member, still
as the petitioners considered that he might be of use to them, he eon.
stinted to be the medium of calling the attention of the House to the
matter. Having stated these circumstances, he would proceed to. state
the' grounds upon which he thought the l'clue ought to grant the
prayer of the petition. It was well known to every Member of the House
that a negociatien for peace was set on foot by Mr:, Fox in 1806; and
that the war was again ;commenced with increased bitterness and hatred
-oil the part of Napoleon. Then this country had Prussia and Russia ore
their side, but in the • campaign of the same year the pride
and glory 'of Russia was humbled, and in the following year
the power of Russia was crippled, and she also became anxious for •

peace. The Berlin decree was issued, and then they were informed
what
the measures of Napoleon were for the overthrow of the
commercial prosperity of this country. The French and the
Spanish navies had been annihilated by Lord Nelson ; but
it was found that Napoleon was taking measures for the seizure
of the fleet of Denmark. It was found that the troops of
France were assembling on Hamburg, the neutrality of which had
been violated. They had no ostensible object but to overrun Ostend,
and then the navy of Denmark would have been in the power of
Napoleon, who might have used it to intercept our commerce.
Under these circumstances it seemed good to the British Government
that they should send out a powerful •armament to invite the Danes to
place their ships under our protection, till a peace should be concluded,
or to bring them home to this country. Soon after that an embargo
was laid on all Danish ships. The expedition sailed—the Danes
refused the request that was made to them, and in
the result the whole of their navy was fitted out in their
own dockyards by Britislt sailors, and brought home to this
country. It was to have been expected that our enemies would take
advantage of that opportunity of raising a cry against Great Britain ;
d accordingly all the world resounded with cries of our want of faith.
he Government of that day put forth a statement of the motives by
hich they were actuated, and which they deemed to be their justification.
tnh
at document was dated the 25th September 1807, and it was im.
portant as showing under what circumstances British merchantmen
were brought into peril, and as showing what was gained by this
country which caused so much loss to those individuals. He
dirt not wish to enter into the 'question at all of how far the
Government of that day were justified or not, because he wished this
to be received not as a party question, and he felt that he could not
enter into any discussion of that statement, without exciting a party
discussion, fereagn to the real merits of the case. Whatever might be
the merits of that proceeding no one could be surprised that the
Danes were displeased at it, and they stated that unless satisfaction was
,ade, they wotild make reprisals on British property within their reach.
ccordlngly they did confiscate British property to a considerable
ount, which consisted of book debts, and the property of British
bjects in Denmark. Goods and ships in the Baltic were Seized.
he confication of the petitioners' property was most undoubtedly
ing to the act of the British Govern:silent, which act was in.
nded to avert a great danger from Va.'s nation ; and it would, there.
re, be monstrous to say that the loss ought to be sustained
.3, individuals. To him the claims of the petitioners seemed to be
most equitable. All the authorities upon the subject of the
w of nations were in favour of the claim. Grotius, in his
Work " De Jure Belli," said that " those who gave occasion
to reprisals were bound to make compensation to those who suffered from
them."—(Hear, hear.) But that was not the only authority on which
be relied. Mathieu, in the second book, eighth chapter, said that " the
Sovereign oughtto compensate those of his subjects upon whom reprisals
,fell." He (Mr. C.) should he astonished if any gentleman would say
that the country at large ought to participate in the advantages
of the measure, and not also bear a part of the loss. If the loss
of those sufferers could be attributed to any fault or negligence
of their own, it would be a different thing; but at the time when
their property was thus seized upon, they could have no reason to
apprehend a war with Denmark. So far from this, it will be found, on
reference to Parliamentary documents of that date, that no increase of pre-
rnium was required at the British Insurance Offices upon the goods and
ships oft hose merchants. Indeed even the Proclamation of the Commanders
of the British navy contained nothing to raise a suspicion that a war with
Denmark was contemplated by the British Government.—(Hear.)
So far from it, that proclamation stated that they came as friends and
ex °teeters, not as enemies, and to prevent those who were disturbing
the peace of Europe from turning the naval force of Denmark
.egainst England ; and it also gave assurance that the British
merchantmen might' continue to navigate the Baltic unmolested.
But the case did not rest here. It should be remembered that the
British Government seized and took possession of Danish pro-
j/erty, which ultimately produced the sum of I,3oo,oool.—(Hear,
bear.) Under what pretence? Were we at war at that time? No.
Had we arty right to make reprisals? Unquestionably not. He (Mr.
Creswell) invited any Hon. alemnes to state any circumstance which
`could justify the seizure of that Danish property, unless it was for
the purpose of creating a fund out of which compensation might
be made to the subjects of this country for anticipated reprisals of the
Danes ? What complaint had been made to Denmark ? 'What
wrong had Denmark committed? What justice had she
denied ? (Hear, hear, hear.) And what right then had this
country to sieze her property unless to make compensation
.to British subjects who might suffer from the acts which the British Go.
wernment thought proper for the w; tare of the empire ?—(Hear, hear.)
In addition to the natural justice of the case, according to the
law of nations, there was therefore a fund which could not be
with equity applied to any other purpose than that to which he
sought to apply a portion of it. To a certain extent that fund,
or a substitute for it, bad already been so applied. On form r
occasions the House hail granted compensation to those
who lost their goods in Deumerk, or their book debts; but it was denied
to those who hail lost their ships, and goods afloat in yes els. Was it
not absurd that for property—part of the lading of a ship, which was
landed—compensation should be granted, and that for the remainder of
the lading of the same vessel, which was not landed, no eoinfiensatiori
was to be showed ?—(llear.) It could nc tbe said that this application
Caine too late, for it had he: ei decided by the House this Session, that
compensation should be given to some of the sufferers ; but it had been
suggested that there had been neeligence on the part of these shipowners;
that they might have insured their property. If, however, they had a
just claim upon the justice of the House, this was no answer to the claim.
If two vessels came into c illision, true—the owners of the injured vessel
Wight recover compensation by insuring her and her cargo ; but this was
'no answer to an action fir damages against the owners of the other vessel.
So in the case of an aceon for damages by fire against the Hundred.
These were the circumstances that had led to the petition, anti he had
stated them as briefly as te,seible, and he trusted, when the House re-'
membered this was a peril into which British subjects were brought, in
order to gain a great national object, and avert a great national dan-
ger—when, moreover, a fund had been provided which was ample for the
purposes—he trusted the House would go along with him in adopting
the motion with which he should conclude—That an humble address be
presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be graciously pleased
to direct the Commissioners to whom it was referred to examine the
claims for losses siestaieed on account of book debts and goods on shore,
in 1807 ; will examine the claims of those who sustained losses on ac-
count of the seizure of ships and cargoes by the Danish Government in
the said year; and that the said COmmissioners report on such claims to
the Lords Commissioners oi'laieeMajesty's Treasury.
Mr. BLACKETT, rot Seconding the motion, sincerely hoped that
her Majesty's Ministers would now complete :his act of justice
which had fleets so worthily commenced by their predecessors
in lß34,—Hear, heir.) lie was sure that there could be no
wish on their part te act partially by the petitioners or unjust to
any one, and he would remind the Chancellor of the Exchequer of what
had already taken place, and ask if any of the grants hitherto made had
been grudged by even the m ,st rigid advocates of economy.—(Hear.)
He believed that on the coetrary they had given the greatest gratifica-
tion to the country, and he believed that to persevere in that course of
equitable redress, would not only be very fair to the individual peti-
tioners, but give great satisfaction to the country at large.—`Hear.)
The SOLICITOR.G%NIaiI AL sincerely regretted that his Hon, and
Learned Friend did not, on 'he face of the notice he gave, state more
distinctly what the motion was with which he intended to conclude his
address to the House; because he (the Solicitor-General) in com-
mon with many of his friends around him did not know from
the nature of the notice, coupled with the petition of the 9th of
Febru iry, whether it was his intention to pray for a further com-
pensation to those having claims for book debts and claims on shore; or
whether, as turned out to be the case, it was his intention to pray that
the compensation might be extended to the case of ships, and cargoes on
board ships. His Hon. Friend having now stated to the House that he
confined himself to this latter position, it became his duty to state that
to that proposition, however agreeable it might be to remunerate those
who had suffered on that occasion, he could not-see any thing whatever,
either in the precedents set with regard to other claims, or with regard
to book debts, to give it the slightest sanction. His Hon. and Learned
Friend had referred to certain passages from e celebrated writer on the
subject. Now his Hon. Friend must know flee the distinction—whether
founded in reason or not, it was not for them to inquire—that the dis-
tinction was universally recognized, that that which was a violation of
the law of nations with respect to goods on shore and book debts, was
not a violation of the law of nations with respect to the ships and cargoes
on board. It was a universally recognized principle on which that coun-
try was in the habit of acting from the earliest times—and if they had
acted wrongly, the sysem must be altered by someprospective enactment,
but such was the principle on which they had invariably acted. Now,
however that distinction might have had its origin, they could see for-
cible reasons why it might be justly and fairly maintained, because it
was a usage universally observed—and he did not use the word in an
exaggerated sense—to ensure ships, and to ensure the cargoes against all
the perils not only of the sea, but of the King's enemies, to whirls they
might be exposed. That practice was not only universal in ordinary
cases, but had become universally the custom at. the time this transaction
took place, and when the war had beets raging between France and this
country for years. His Learned Friend had said that the Government
ha.i already given compensation in the case of losses by book debts and
goods on shore. Why did they do so? Because the act of the Danish
Government in respect of those transactions was an act in violation of
the law of nations. It was not consistent with the law of nations that
the goods on shore at Copenhagen, or the book debts, should be confis-
cated because a war had broken out. Such a principle as that could not
be applied to the present case, nor did his Learned Friend attempt to
apply it. lie made his'application in the present instance upon totally
distinct ground. He had stated that the reason he asked for compensa-
tion was, not that the Danish Government had done any thing which, by
the usages of war, they were not justified in doing, but he called on the
. House, in the year 1838, to give compensation, because they had em-
barked in an unlawful war. If compensation were to be given in such a
case, he wished to know where it was to stop. If, in 1838, it was com-
petent for parties to put forward such claims for the first time, it was
impossible to know where it would end. The claimants for the book
debts and the goods on shore went upon a very different principle.
They always put their claim upon the ground that it was not liable to
the objection of the ship claimants. They claimed on the ground of a
violation of the law of nations. His I earned Friend had stated his case
shortly and clearly ; he had attempted to state his reply in the same
manner; he had been short, perhaps he had not been clear, but he had
endeavoured to he so. The ground upon which they resisted the claim
was that these could not be put on the same ground as the other claim.
• ants. Was it possible that, 31 years after a war had taken place, the
House should go into an inquiry into the conduct of this country in en-
tering into that war ? If the House were to go into such an inquiry as
to the Danish war,,where were they to stop ? Some might think that
we were very wrong in entering into the war of 1756 ; others might
complain of the beginning of the American war, and call for an inquiry,
asking for compensation fir all those who had lost by the conduct of this
country in entering into such wars. Uproot were wanted of the law of
nations being in the state that he had put it, he would cite the conti-
nual treaties made between two nations at peace—that if a war
should unhappily break out, no ship should be seized until six months
after the declaration. These treaties would be rendered totally unne-
cessary if the law of nations provided for the case. He had shortly
stated, the ground was clearly distinguishable from the case of the
other claimants, and he trusted that he had shown the extreme
inexpediency of entertaining the motion before the House.
Mr. HUTT must do the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just
Mt down the justice to say that he had not occupied the House unneces-
sarily with any argument; but more imbecile or futile arguments he
had never heard the Hon. and Learned Gentleman put forth. The Learned
Gentleman had stated that this was the first occasion on which the at-
tention of the House had been c shied to those claims which arose out of
the con fiscationof goods. Why, the Chancellor of the Exchequer must
recollect that on no less than three occasions had the House divided
on it.—(Hear, bear.)
[The great noise at the bar, occasioned by Members congregating to-
gether, and carrying on conversation, at length caused several Hon.
Members to call out "Bar, bar."]
The SPEAKER said, Gentlemen who have arrangements to make
for the purpose of absenting themselves during the remainder of the
evening, should make them in such a way as not to impede business being
i
done by those who remain to perform t.—(Great cheering and laughter,
Jee the if :h between twenty and thirty lion. Gentlemen
e bar was cleared in a few seconds.)
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the Soli_
led successfully one single argument ad-
,ed Member opposite. There was one ma-
he Hon. and Learned SolicitoteGeneral
to Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite
f British goods and ships in the Danish
the hew of nations—it went to this, that
2, it was incumbent on this country to give
were sufferers by it. He considered that
distinction. He remembered that, on a for-
objectioes taken to compensation, on the
liar to one in which a ship sailing on the
mence of hostilities haying commenced in

in the midst of which betwe(
A‘, jumped to their seats, and the b.
.
C'S pit, Hurt resumed.—The
c.,,----Cator:4Alpsitiad not combats
- , .
e . , ri. and Learned
-ielriar4 wever, which a
_ ..,, / t hairath,.. ' derstood. Tin
?"..,.. ::,./ ~"..-41.3-fitit srf %1' the seizure of
`", , .- f - hiilkkOztvt)Pljitct contrary to 1
liili seizult 44 inl taken
~ '._ . place,
, ItorcpepiaPcgit ° those who we,
uis\-4,744,,*, mit important iii..ii
o ,
,ekr n,„ie,„,. on, there were obje
-"bgrWd that the case was simil
high seas was seized in consequ