The Sun.
London, England, 1854-05-24 00:00:00

Mr. R. PHILLIMORE, who was met by loud cries of
" divide, divide," said he had heard the speech of the noble
lord opposite with great pleasure. As the noble lord had
made allusion to the motion he (Mr. Phillimore) made last
year, he felt that he was called upon to make a few obser-
vations. He thought that honourable members should be
cautious in voting for a measure abolishing church rates
altogether without providing any substitute for them.
They should remember that, upon the other side of the
Tweed, church rates Were paid 'by a large body of dissen-
ters who had made no appeal to Parliament. He had not
the slightest intention in his proposition of inflicting the
least degree of pain upon the conscientious convictions
of those who differed from the Established Church.
He had on the 27th of March voted conscientiously upon
the question that the Roman Catholics of Ireland should
be exempted from the payment of ministers' money, and
there was hardly one nonconformist in that house who did
not vote for the same proposition. By the measure which
he proposed last year a man was not called upon to declare
his religious tenets or doctrines, but simply to declare
whether he made use of the church or not ; and in case he
did make use of it, he was ballad to pay for it. Could
anything be more fair, just, or' reasonable ? He was so
anxious to have this matter settled, and was so desirous
for the peace and welfare of the Church, and that it should
not receive any support from the dissenters, that he would
consent to any proposition that NI as likely to relieve it from
that difficulty. Although he was anxious to exempt from
this burden all such as entertained conscientious objections
to the church rates, he could see no reason whatever why
church men should not pay those rates. So far from con- '
gratulating ourselves that so many churches had been built,
we ought to take shame to ourselves that double the num-
ber had not been built, and that double the amount of
money had not been subscribed. He was one of the last
men to consent to any part of that money being applied to
relieving the wealthy churchmen from the obligation im-
posed upon them by the law as well as their own con-
sciences. The Church should, however, be the place in
which all distinctions should be forgotten, and the last
place in which those distinctions should be kept up in the
most offensive manner. For those reasons he was ready to
relieve dissenters, but not churchmen, from the payment
of church rates.

Mr. H. DRUMMOND believed it was of much less im-
portance whether a few more or a few less belonged to the
respective sects than that they should really understand
the essence of the question upon which they were going to
vote. It was impossible after what they had heard, and es-
pecially after the speech of the noble lord (Stanley) not to
see that this question was far more extensive than the
payment of a few pounds in the shape of church rates by
dissenters. It was perfectly plain from the language held
this night, that every argument used against the payment
of church rates was equally valid against the support of the
Established Church. (Hear.) It was very easy to talk about
the delight of brethren dwelling together in unity and peace
When Edward GibbonWakefleld was in Newgate, he found
amongst the thieves there was the same opinion as to the
origin of their trouble. And that origin was the magis-
trates, the judges, and the police. (Laugter.) Now, hon.
gentlemen who oppose the church rates think that the mat-
ter could be amicably settled if they were allowed to rob
the church with impunity. (No, no, from the dissenters.)
Why they talked of the necessity of this matter being ami-
cably settled, and yet there was not one of them who
talked of any other settlement whatever but an absolute
refusal to pay. (Hear, hear.) Well, if that was not having
their own way and a robbery of the Church withimpunity,
he confessed he was at a loss to understand anything.
People were very fond of talking of their consciences, and
he had no objection to their indulging themselves in such a
way, but there was always a secret insinuation made that
no one else had a conscience. (Hear, hear, and laughter).
In all the countries in the world of which we have any
record we find that the Sovereign of that country did
establish, for the benefit of the subjects, a national reli-
gion. That national religion was necessarily the religion of
the Sovereign. That was their conscientious duty to do,
and the conscientious duty of every subject of the Sove-
reign was to assist that Sovereign in upholding all that was
necessary for the religious instruction of the subjects gene-
rally. (Hear.) But hon. members said that this blessed
thing called dissent should be exempted from the payment
of church rates. They should, however, recollect that peo-
ple must pay for luxuries. They could not keep a pack
of hounds or a box at the Opera without expense. (Laugh.
ter.) How could they expect to have the luxury of amus-
ing sermons from the bishop, or of attacking the Church
Establishment, without paying the miserable pittance of
a church rate. (Cries of "Oh, oh.") But this was not all.
He said, with respect to church rates, what he had said
with respect to tithes, that there was a great cry for
their abolition, but the meaning of that was that every
landlord should put one-tenth more property into his
pocket than he had a right to. (Hear, hear.) If they abo-
lished tithe let the State take it. He said the same in re-
spect to church rates ' • for they bought their houses and
their lands subject to those burdens, and they should not
put these monies into their own pockets. Let the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer take them—they belong to the
State. If their consciences would not allow them to pay
this money to the State, he should still suspect that these
were not questions of conscience, but of money after all.
Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, I have not much addressed
the house upon this subject. It has been very frequently
brought before us, and I think the ground of it is hardly,
changed in the course of the various discussions that have
taken place. It was during the Government of Lord Grey
a proposition was made to abolish church rates, but at
the same time to give the sum of 250,0001. from the Con-
solidated Fund for the repairs of the churches ; and like-
wise that there should be the means found for what is
called the furniture of the Church. In 1837 a bill was pro-
posed by the Government to which I belonged, by which
a certain portion of the revenue of the Church was to
be taken for the repairs of churches instead of the church
rates. Both of those measures were, however, violently
opposed. The first was violently opposed by the Dissenters,
who got up au agitation on the subject, and Lord Althorp
found it impossible to proceed with it. The second mea-
sure was opposed by much vehemence and pertinacity,
and the archdeacons throughout the country got petitions
circulated everywhere which were numerously signed
against the measure. A division upon the subject took
place in this house, and there being only a majority of five
in favour of the measure, it was given up. I confess that
the rejection of both of those proposals, which appe •red
to me to have been framed in a fair and impartial
spirit, has given ma but very slender hopes of any fair
adjustment of this question being effected. (Hear.) It
appears from what I heard to-night that there is as little
disposition as there ever was at any former time to con-
sent to what is called a compromise upon this subject.
Some hon. gentlemen approach the Church with every kind
of blandishment with a view of inducing it to consent to
to give up the church-rates. They say " Your church has the
prettiest voice in the world; and if it exerted it for the
purpose of persuasion, every one would at once yield to its
influence." They say " If you would only drop that which
you have got in your beak, the body that is opposed
to you ;will be happy to take it." (Laughter.) There
are others who approach the church in another tone alto-
gether. They say it is an institution that is rotten to
the core ; it was opposed to the spirit of the age, and no-
thing but the blindness of the members of the Church pre-
vents them from seeing that that Ghluch i 9 doomed to de.