The Sun.
London, England, 1853-06-03 00:00:00

Ireland. Ho certainly thought the amendment of the lion.
member opposite (Mr. Cairns) was adapted to the circum-
stances of the case, and should vote accordingly.
Mr. MACARTNEY wished to know how the tax was to
be levied. In many instances Irish tenants never paid any
rent, and what was to be done in that case ? Was the tax
to be taken off the property ?
Sir D. NORREYS said that the real va7tte of property
could only be judged from the rent actually received ; to
tax, therefore, upon the basis of an ima inary valuation
was a monstrous injustice.
The committee then divided—
For the amendment
Against it

.... 66

94-28

The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 15, in answer to Mr. I. BUTT,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said when
officers were appointed for collecting- the tax in Ireland,
the officers of excise might be made available in some cases;
but these were matters of detail which must necessarily be
deferred.
Mr. BUTT thought there would be extreme difficulty in
carrying out the clause. There were no assessors of taxes
in Ireland. The 18th clause provided that the assessment
under schedule D should he made by the officers of inland
revenue ; but that provision (lid not extend to schedule A.
He thought an additional clause would be necessary on
bringing up the report, or on the third reading.
On the next clause, clause 16,
Mr. F. FRENCH objected to power being given to sell
the estates of an Irish landlord for the payment of this
tax, the same remedy which was given under the poor law.
So unconstitutional a power ought not to be continued
without necessity. A noble lord in the other house had
said that no minister would ever dare to propose such a
thing in England.
Mr. H. HERBERT said the landlord's estate might ac-
tually be sold under the poor law for the debt of another
party—that of the absconding tenant. He wished to know
whether power would be taken to sell the property under
this bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
sole object of the clause was to provide an easy remedy. (A
loud laugh from Col. Dunne.) The gallant colonel (said
the right hon. gentleman) may adopt any mode of proceed-
ing which he pleases in this house. I have seen quite
enough of the insulting manner in which he conducts him-
self not to be moved by it. (Hear, hear, and no.) I must
say I think the loud laugh wish which he has received my
statement was insulting. (Hear, hear.)
The CHAIRMAN.—I think the right hon. gentleman
will see that this is an expression which he ought not to
use.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Oh, I will
withdraw it readily ; but I must insist on being protected
against such a course of proceeding.
Col. DUNNE said that his laugh was not directed
against the right hon. gentleman, but was in consequence
of an observation made to him by an hon. member near
him. (Laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER I beg the
hon. and gallant member's pardon. The right hon. gen-
tleman proceeded to say that it would be for the commit-
tee to consider the best course of proceeding. It might
be that the remedies provided by the poor law were the
best ; but that was a practica 1 question, and one for the
committee to consider.
Lord NAAS said it was difficult to find out what really
were the powers given by this bill ; it referred to another
act, in which a third act was cited. He would suggest
that the same powers should be given as were given in the
original poor law, and would move an amendment to that
effect.
Sir J. YOUNG said that in England the corpus of the
estate could not be sold for arrears of poor rate ; in Ireland
it was different, for, by a process of law, the estate itself
might be reached. He did not think the amendment of
the noble lord would give a sufficient remedy, as the origi-
nal poor law was very defective in this respect. The
point might be considered before the third reading of the
bill, and some words introduced to meet the noble lord's
view ; for it certainly was not the intention to sell the
estate itself. (Hear.})
After a few words from Mr. NAPIER,
Mr. M`MAHON inquired whether the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had certain means of exacting the tax from
every acre assessed to it, and of protecting the district from
a new assessment in the event of a defalcation on the part
of the collector ?
Mr. GROGAN had no doubt means would be found to
enforce the tax when it was levied, but he objected to the
landlord being called upon to pay on what he did not
receive.
Colonel DUNNE thOught protection should be given
against defalcations on the part of the collectors appointed
by the government.
Mr. WMAHON intimated that he had prepared an
amendment to tarty out his view in regard to the defalca-
tion of collectors.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER suggested
that it should be brought up on the report.
Mr. IerMAHON consented, and
Lord (NAAS having withdrown his amendment, the
clause was agreed to.
Clauses 17 and 28 were agreed to.
On clause 29,
SirJ. D. NORREYS observed that this clause enabled
the holders of ecclesiastical tithe rent charge to claim
allowance on account of the poor rate. He wished to know
whether the lay tithe rent charge would be entitled to do
the same ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
clause referred to ecclesiastical bodies only. He, however,
recommended the hon. gentleman to put the question at a
future stage.
After a few words from Mr. GROGAN,
Sir J. YOUNG said that the lay holder of tithe rent
charges would be in precisely the same position as the
holders of ordinary rent charges.
The clause was agreed to, as were the following clauses
to 39.

The remaining clauses were then agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
now to bring up several new clauses. The first was ono to
which he had referred early in the evening, and which was
in substitution of the one proposed by the hon. member
for Horsham. It entitled landlords in Ireland to claim
repayment of the tax paid on rent lost by the bankruptcy,
insolvency, or absconding of tenants, and he had added
the words "by the land being left waste." (Hear.)
Mr. SPOONER did not mean to oppose the clause, but
merely to say that its principle was the same as the pro-
position he had made that landlords should not be called
on to pay income tax on rent which they had never re-
ceived. The right hon. gentleman bad opposed that pro-
position, and he wished to call his attention to his having
adopted the principle and ask him to extend it to all land.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—It was
refreshing to him to be found fault with for having dealt
more kindly with English than with Irish landlords, for
hitherto he had heard of nothing but the immunities en-
joyed by English over Irish landlords. This was no doubt
an advantage the Irish landlords possessed over the English,
who only enjoyed the right as regarded houses. Theke was,
however, some inconvenience in levying the tax in the
same form in Ireland as in England, and considering that
the Irish landlords were made primarily liable to the tax,
he thought on the whole that there was a balance of
advantage.
Mr. G. M. BUTT suggested that there should be some
definition of the word "insolvency" so as to make it include
cases of assignments to creditors and deeds of composition.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was
assured by the legal adviser of the Board of Revenue that
the word would bear that legal sense ; but he would look
into the matter before the third reading.
The clause was then agreed to and added to the bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The next
clause had been suggested by an hon. member. It amended
the position of parties with regard to the assessments in
schedule A, and referred to England. If on an appeal
there was any dispute about the annual value of the land,
the commissioners now had power to order a valuation,
and this clause was for the purpose of extending that ad-
vantage to the parties appealing, who would be enabled to
require a valuation to be made; which power they did not
hitherto have.

The clause was agreed to, and added to the bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The next
clause had been suggested by the noble lord the member
for Northumberland, and referred to the description of
relief given two years ago under the 3rd section of 13 and
14 Vict., c. 12, which allowed tenant farmers who gained
their livelihood solely by husbandry to have the power of
a half-yearly appeal. It was proposed to extend that relief
by making it applicable to tenant farmers who gained their
livelihood" principally" by husbandry ; but it was to be
confined strictly to tenant farmers and not to persons
farming their own land.

The clause was agreed to, and added to the bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The next
clause had been prepared in consequence of a suggestion of
the hon. member for Meath, add enabled clergymen and
ministers of every denomination to deduct from their as-
sessable income charges incurred in the exercise of their
professional duty. It did not exempt them as clergymen,
but only put them on a footing of equality with other pro-
fessions.
The clause was agreed to and added to the bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—There
was one other clause— one which had been suggested by
the hon. member for Newcastle—and it was intended to
enlarge the power of deduction with regard to bad and
doubtful debts. At present those debts only were allowed
for which were proved to be bad ; and although the pro-
visions of the bill might have included such debts as were
only partially bad, yet, by a rigid construction of the law,
they had been hitherto excluded.

After a few words from Mr. GROGAN, expressing a wish
that the clause had been extended to Schedule A,
The clause was agreed to and added to the bill.
Mr. M`l'ylAHON moved a clause in order to draw the
attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the pro-
priety of exempting a certain portion of a person's house-
hold furniture and wearing apparel from seizure.,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
would be impossible to introduce the clause proposed into
the bill. The question to be considered was whether the
claim of the state was a primary or a secondary one. The
doctrine of the law was that the claims of the crown were
paramount ; and indeed, the existence of law and order,
which could only be maintained by means of the public
revenuos, might almost be reckoned amongst a man's im-
plements of trade. The proposal of the hon. gentleman,
however, would place those claims in a position of in-
feriority as compared with those of the landlord.
The clause was then withdrawn.
Mr. I. BUTT brought up a new clause. By the present
law, if there were any defalcation it must be made good
by a reassessment of the district. That provision was
just, inasmuch as the collector was in the hands of the
local authorities ; but in Ireland the fact was the reverse,
and to apply the same enactment would be manifestly
unjust. The object of the clause, therefore, was to pre-
vent its application to the sister country.
The clause was agreed to and added to the bill.
Mr. I. BUTT then proposed a second new clause, the
object of which was to allow the Irish landlords to deduct
the amount they paid for poor rates from the income to be
assessed. There was this difference in the cases of the two
countries : in England the rates were paid entirely by the
tenant, but in Ireland the landlord was compelled by law
to pay at least one-half of the rate. Thus, if a man had a
farm in England worth 100/, net, on which the rates were
101., the tenant would only give the landlord 1001. and pay
the rates himself. In Ireland he would give 1051., so that
in the latter case the landlord would have to pay income
tax on 51. more than in England upon a property of ex-
actly the same value. Besides, there was an enactment
by which an English landlord, if ho agreed to pay any
portion of the tenant's. rates,
.or,, in other words, if he
voluntarily placed himself in the position in which an
eg
'1:• till:el.:mil': to placed by law, he was allowed to make
t hn egn
CHANCELLOR, the EXCHEQUER desired the
-poxtpone the clause till the third read-
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not. accept it, because
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