The Sun.
London, England, 1838-05-22 00:00:00

free from all assessment. list, worse than this, he was not
merely the manufacturer of cotton, he was also the manufacturerr
of paupers.—(Renewed roars of laughter.) The manufacturer had all
actual interest in increasing paupers, for it was his interest to reduce
the price of labour at the expense of his neighbour, the landholder. This
was one of the greatest iniquities of the measure. And now, when
they were called upon to give a Poor-law to Ireland which never he
one, they pieced out all the very worst parts of the English system, and
introduced them without stint or alteration. He would trouble the
House with but a few more observations. There was, and very natter_
ally, an extreme difference in the circumstances of England and Irelan
with respect to the probable operation of the workhouse system. Why
was it that the workhouse was a test in England ? It was because
there was in England work and hands to do the work ; but the admi-
nistration of the law of Elizabeth and of the subsequent laws had
begotten habits of indolence, and of trusting to charity instead of to
industry—they were therefore unable to apply the workhouse test,
and to say to the pauper. "you shall no longer have support doled
out by the parish, but here is the workhouse ready to receive
you." This was the origin of the workhouse test. But he very
much questioned whether this could be done in Ireland. Was there
work in Ireland for those who applied for it ? Unless all he had read in
the reports on this subject, and in the speeches in the newspapers, and
in the pamphlets that had been published both by Lord Clements and
Mr. Lynch, and others—unless the reports of Mr. Nicholl and of the j
Commissioners were altogether a fiction and a fabrication, it was abso-
lutely certain that there was a very different supply of work in Ireland
to what there was in England. Where in England had they anything
like the scenes which were everywhere described in Ireland, of men al-
most tearing each other for the share of a jell of work, and this for wages
of li, epence, sixpence, and sevenpence a day ? Where did they see
people willing and anxious to compound for two shillings a week the
3 ear round ? It seemed, then, that there was in Ireland a want
of work ; and that being the case, he very much doubted whe-
ther the Workhouse Act, which assumed that there was work, and
hands to do it, but an indisposition to work, engendered by a badly_
administered poor-law, would apply in Ireland. This was one great
doubt which he had respecting this measure, and the doubt had, upon
consideration and reflection, been increased. lie approved of the ob-
servation of his Noble and Learned Friend, who stated that it was
thoughtless to say that the penal laws were the cause of the poverty of
Ireland. He heartily agreed with his Noble and Learned Friend in
opinion that those laws had quite sufficient to answer for without being
unjustly loaded. But though those laws could not be distinctly and
peculiarly charged with causing the poverty of Ireland, that system of
government of which they were a part had certainly a close con-
nection with the poverty of tl country. That system of government
had lessened the security of lilLs in Ireland, and had kept down the pro-
fitable employment of capital; and wherever you lower the security of
capital, the inevitable tendency was not only to prevent capital being in-
troduced, bat to chase away that portion of capital that was capable
of being removed. If he were asked to invest capital in Ireland, and
had capital to invest, he would pause, and he would advise others to
pause, before they laid out a single 1,0001. upon the fairest estate in the
green island, until he saw whether now, for the first time, Ireland was
to be made subject to a poor-rate. Capital could only be drawn to Ire-
land by whatever tranquillised Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) Let them
settle the tithe question—(Loud cheers)—with or without the appropri-
ation clause he cared not one straw. He had been no party to the in-
triguing that involved that question. He knew nothing of, and he
never would be a party to it. Let the tithe question be settled, with or
without the appropriation clause, and the whole of the ecclesiastical
questions in general. Govern the country with firmness—(Loud cheers
from the Opposition)—with statesmanlike views, and with consistency, as
the Marquis of Wellesley governed it, and as the Marquis of Anglesea
governed it—(Loud cheers)—so as to hold the balance even between
the conflicting sides and opposing parties ; but govern it with
an absolute love of the people, and with a steady disposition
unremittingly to gain their affections —(Cheers.) Show yourselves to
be the fathers as well as the rulers of the people, and then choose those
friends who are the strength, comfort, and security of every Govern-
ment, and without which neither taxes cats be raised in the Exchequer,
nor rates levied by Commissioners, nor armies sent to enforce the rates
which the Commissioners may raise—never will those avail to secure the
strength and peace of the realm. " Auro neque armis, regni presidia
comparare queas, sed office et fide." Yes, unremitting kindness, steady,
manly, equal policy, absolutely perfect, good faith, and no chicane—
(lmmense cheering from the Opposition)—no shuffling whatever—
(Continued cheering)—these are the friends upon whom alone
a Government ought to wish to rest, and upon whom alone the
safety of the empire can alone be securely bottomed.—(Loud cheers.)
" teicio ct fide"—govern Ireland thus and you will see capital flow
into her—you will see her fields cultivated, her hogs drained, her wants
diminished, her comforts increased, tranquillity established, and the
crafty pri,st may intrigue in vain, and the ruthless agitator may disturb
in vain—(Immense cheering from the Opposition)—you may defy
them, because you are in the right ; and whilst you fairly discharge
your duty, you may defy the arts of the one, and the tumults of the
other.—(Loud cheers.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that the preliminary question
they had to determine was, whether the attempt was now to be made in
Ireland, or not ? Then he must refer to what had fallen from tire
( tu,ce hear,
h pointw the and
as
d principle i cfli e
thise ri n
Bill created
Noble and Learned Lord, and other Noble Lords who had im-
as
puted to Government the having created expectations and hopes
on this subject which they were by no means prepared to fulfil.—
H e a r
of
the
ea Thete
Bill
.t
he Noblelfr andgith
twtlecs)er
ear
ers df
he Lord
d haddenied are
never
tgeednat s h
have supported the Bill. Were that the principle of the Bill, the ex-
aggerated statement of the Noble and Learned Lord opposite (Lord
Lyndhurst) of the possible diminution of the rental of Ireland, so far
from being exaggerated, would fall short by two-thirds of the full
amount ; for he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) believed that in that case
it would swallow up the whole rental. When Government was ac-
cused of having misled the public by their statements, those who
brought the charge ought to refer to the public acts of the Government.
What was the language employed in the speeches put into the mouth
of the late King and her present Majesty ? Nothing could be more
carefully guarded than the language of these speeches against raising
any such hopes or crest ing any such expectations. Looking at the ne-
cessity for relief, of employing some stimulus to the resources, and of im-
proving the condition of the poor—looking at these things, it surely
became the Government to make an attempt that they could keep under
their own control and management, There was no danger that the di-
rections of the Commissioners would be permanently abused; there was
sufficient protection against that in the revision and control which it was
intended should be exercised from time to time by Parliament. The
Noble and Learned Lord referred to the English Board, as if that
were intended to be an insult to the people of Ireland; but surely the
Noble and Learned Lord's own allusion to Ireland as the " land of jobs,"
might have suggested to him an answer to any such supposition. The
employment of English Commissioners in cases where money was to be
expended had, as was admitted in all quarters, had the effect of
putting a stop to jobs of every description. In proof of this, he
need only refer to the Board of Works. The members of that Board
were entirely English. The Noble andLearnedLord had professed that he
would consent to a measure for the relief of the sick, aged, and im-
potent, and yet all the objections he had made to the present Bill
would apply with equal force to the other measure he contemplated.
The Bill before their Lordships was necessary to go alongside with the
clearing of estates, which was being proceeded with in some cases too
rapidly, but in others with due caution. Such a measure as this, by
making a provision for the poor, would deter them from bidding as they
now did for estates, and also prevent them from feeling so much discon-
tent when ejected by their landlords. He considered the Dill required
to assist thosel natural causes which were working out the increasing
prosperity of the country. To suppose that any measure of the kind
could put an end to the famines with which Ireland was occasionally
inflicted would be chimerical. So long as the population was dependent
sto o tloli7g
mpresentastth
eeyx
be
een
ot
cocna
ohne
at
Ipl
yo poorest
brought
to descriptionthe exot
rf fat() oed, e
distress p otat
whirlsoe
had been heretofore induced. Any measure that might be proposed
theep was
e se ee
favourable n
t o
for the relief of the pear must be liable to some objec-
nwellandcotnosidLretgdr,attooto
thias
cer-
tainwa was
thought
which the country must be
put to carry it to the extent required to make it a permanent means of
relief rendered that plan impracticable. The draining of lands could also
to s.
extent,'tahriie"b best.o
Various plaitst He have
c
be proceeded with in a degree, but could not be made to afford the relief
demanded. The future prosperity of Ireland would, he believed, be
greatly advanced by this Bill, the tendency of which would, in his opinion,
be to stimulate industry, to put an end to combinations hostile to trade,
to remove all obstacles to free communication, to inspire confidence, and
to induce a flow of capital into the country.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH rose amidst loud cries of " Divide
He said he considered this measure to have beers brought
with the object of enabling her Majesty's Ministers to
ifanonrsdweraatdrsjdoo:rniaretnithle'ir'ng ad captandum in the- Queen's speech at the close of the
session, than with any serious view of benefitting Ireland. He protested
against the sacrifice which the Bill required from tire landed proprietors.
He despaired of the Bill being so improved as to enable him to approve
a few words. He
it, and he, therefore, would vote against the second reading.
Viscount MELBOURNE would not detain the House at that late
hour of the night with many remarks; but he could not, in justice to
acrimonious withoutttsri sayingld
himself, allow the debate tofinish
greatly regretted that a more been introduced into
conclusion than had characterised its commence-
ment,the debate towards the
Lord who opened the debate stated that the Bill was
The Noble
sought
popular in Ireland—that it was not for by the people of Ire_
not
land ; and he had adduced, in proof of Isis assertions, that it was not
asked for by any part of
the provincial press—that it formed no part of
the speeches from the
hustings or at public meetings in Ireland He
(Viscount Melbourne) had a great respect fore th
provincial press—he
had a great respect for the speeches delivered from the hustings and at
the absence of any topic
but he could not admit that
public meetings ;
from the discussions on these occasions was an infallible argument
against it, and Noble Lords must have got much more popular in their
considerations as these to weigh
they allowed such consi
notions of late if
with them.—
.
(Hear.) As to the attack from the Noble
and
Learned
Lord opposite, it was
what he had quite expected. The dark cloud
which had so long overshadowed the countenance of that Noble and
Learned Lord had taught him to expect that ere long the torrent would
descend. It did not appear, however, that any of the objections were
such as could not be obviated. Many of the objections were precisely
those which obtained against the English Act, which had met with the
N'oble Lord's sanction, and in many respects these objections were
pressed far beyond any real weight which attached against them.—
(Hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord, it seemed, was now vastly
anxious to avoid anything which could possibly wound the feelings of
the Irish people—was bent upon doing all in his power to spare the
feelings of that sensitive race.—(Hear, hear.) He (Viscount Melbourne)
was glad to hear the Noble and Learned Lord had adopted this tcne—
(Hear, hear)—and in the hope that he would adhere to it on other oc-
casions, he would not make any allusion to a certain unfortnnate
speech in which the Noble and Learned Lord had exhibited anything
but a similar delicacy of feeling in reference to the Irish nation.—
(Hear, hear.) It was said that a disposition was manifested to
legislate for Great Britain at the expense of Irish interests ;
but the assertion was totally without foundation; there was not the
slightest indication, throughout the whole progress of this Bib, of any
intention to commit so gross an injustice.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
and Learned Lord opposite had thought fit, most unreasonably, to in-
troduce into this discussion very decided ebullitions of party feeling;
among other things, the Noble Lord had taken upon himself to
inti-
mate that lie never expected to hear anything partaking of great or en.
larged principles emanate from the present Government. Now, he
(Viscount Melbourne) must beg leave to say that he did conceive the
Noble and Learned Lord to be the best possible judge of such matters._
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He readily admitted the great tact—the
surpassing ability of the Noble and Learned Lord ; but he could never
allow that the Noble and Learned Lord was, in any degree, a competent
judge of what was great or enlarged in principle--(Hear, hear)—and he
did not, therefore, feel the Noble and Learned Lord's censure in this
respect so severely :s he might have done a censure from other quarters.
virulent might have been the attack
—(Hear, hear.) But, however
of the Noble and Learned opposite, it was greatly surpassed in
bitterness by that of the Noble and Learned Lord near him, whose
support he (Viscount Melbourne) had reasonably, as he thought, ex-
pected would be given to the second reading of this Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble and Learned Lord seemed very angry with him (Viscount
Melbourne) that he had not more consulted that Noble and Learned
Lord's convenience in reference to the progress of this Bill ; he (Vis-
count Blelbourne) could only say, that when he expressed his objection
to postpone the discussion of so important a measure merely on account
of the absence of a single member of the House, that objection was gene.
rally admitted by the House to be a valid one. The Noble and Learned
Lord had reproached bins (Viscount Melbourne) with not having intro-
duced the English Poor law Bill ; he could only say that, to the best of
his recollection, he had never had the option offered him of bringing for.
ward that measure, for the Noble and Learned Lord himself had volun-
teered to introduce it, TT himself made the speeches in support of it.
—(A laugh)—and he was quite ready to admit that no one was fitter to
do justice to the subject than a man of the great talents which the Noble
and Learned Lord undoubtedly possessed, and for the exercise of which
On that occasion he (viscount Melbourne) was much indebted to the Noble