The Sun.
London, England, 1854-07-18 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PAR LI A. 7 t,i N

HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY.)
PUBLIC REVENUE AND CONSOLIDATED

CHARGES BILL.

Earl GRANVILLE moved the third reading of the
Public Revenue and Consolidated Fund Charges Bill,
tho objects of which he described as being twofold : one
was to bring into the Exchequer the gross revenue,
leaving the expenses of its collection to be defrayed by
the votes in Parliament • and the other was to remove
from the Consolidated Fund certain salaries with which
it has been hitherto charged, and to place them on the
votes of supply.
Lord MONTEAGLE moved that the bill be referred
to a select committee. The object of the bill was to give
Government a control over certain charges which had
been purposely removed from it upon the grounds of
political expediency. The transfer of a salary from the
Consolidated Fund to the votes of supply subjected the
recipient to the caprice of either the Minister or the
House of Commons. By the operation of the bill, the
salaries of revising barristers would be placed under the
control of the House of Commons, which was a return
to the system abolished by Sir R. Peel in 1343. The
noble lord then went on to argue against the impolicy as
well as the injustice of placing the salaries of the clerk
of the patent entirely dependent on an annual vote, and
he urged that the increased number of miscellaneous
votes, which this bill went to swell, would almost double
the time now appropriated to financial purposes, and to
that extent lessen the time that could be applied to legis-
lative purposes. Designating the bill as anomalous in
character and unjust in principle, he prayed the house to
refer it to a select committee, in order that it might be
more fully considered.
After a few words from Lord BROUGHAM, who en-
tirely coincided with the reasoning of his noble friend
Lord Monteagle.
The Duke of ARGYLE said that the whole argument
of the noble lord was founded upon the supposition that
it was the rule to charge salaries upon the Consolidated
Fund, and that it was the exception to vote them,
whereas the contrary was the fact. Having instanced
the fact that the Board of Health and the Poor-law
Board, as well as the Insolvent Commissioners, held
their offices dependent upon an annual vote, he main-
tained that the schedule of the bill was quite in the or-
dinary course. The reference to a select committee was
therefore unnecessary, and he deprecated the adoption
of such a proceeding as an unusual interference with the
ordinary course of business.
The motion to refer the bill having been agreed to, the
other orders of the day were disposed, and the house ad-
journed.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-(YESTERDAY.)
MINISTER OF WAR.

The house having gone into committee of supply,
Lord J. RUSSELL said—Mr. Speaker, I am about to
place on the table the estimate for the present year ending
31st March, 1855, to defray the expenses of the Secretary
of State for the War Department; and in doing so I beg
to recall to the attention of the house what has passed on
previous evenings upon this subject. I think it was my
hon. friend the member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) who,
early in the session, stated his opinion—repeatedly ex-
pressed before—that the military departments in this
country ought to be brought together, and especially that
the Secretary of State for the War Department had not
sufficient control over these military departments. A right
hon. gentleman whom I see opposite (Sir J. Pakington),
and who has been Secretary of State for the Colonies,
added his opinion that the Secretary of State for the
Colonies, although he was nominally Secretary of State
for War, bad not the means in his department to carry
into effect those resolutions which he might think neces-
sary for the public service. At a later period the hon.
member for Surrey asked me a question in reference to
this subject, and certainly received a very general assent
from the house when he said that he hoped there would be
a Minister of War. In answer to him, I stated that the
subject was under the consideration of the Government.
A little later I said that the Government had determined
that the departments of Secretary of State for War and
Colonies should be divided, and that further arrangements
were in contemplation. I have now to give a general
outline of the changes that aro in contemplation. In
the first place, I beg to remind the house that two
questions come under consideration together, but are
of a very different character. The one is, whether in
time of war it is desirable to keep united the offices
of Secretary for War and for the Colonies ; and the other
is whether, with a view to public convenience in the
arrangements of the business of the departments, it is de-
sirable to make changes with regard to the military de-
partments, and to simplify and consolidate the business
which they have to transact. With reference to the first
question, the house is aware that during the late war the
Secretary of State for War and the Colonies could devote
his time and attention to the business of the war—to the
fitting out of expeditions and the other military arrange-
ments—the colonial business at that time occupying only
a comparatively small portion of his time. Since the
peace, and especially during the last twenty years, the
business of the Colonial Secretary has very greatly in-
creased. In almost every colony—even in some of the mi-
litary colonies—there have been discussions with respect
to arrangements for the control of the public expenditure,
and many questions, some of the highest importance, have
arisen in our several colonies. It, therefore, appeared to
the Government that, considering that question alone, it
was not desirable to keep these offices united, and that
although-it was physically possible for a person of great
decision, of great habits of business, and of health which
should be uninterrupted, to go through the business of the
two departments, yet that it was desirable to separate
them for the sake of the efScient discharge of the duties of
each. The questions that would come before a minister
in each department might be of the utmost importance.
The fitting out of an expedition, the troops that are to com-
pose it, the points to which it is to be directed, the means
that are to be employed, are all subjects involving ques-
tions that would require the sole and undivided attention
of a man of the greatest practice in public business. On the
other hand, alt hough it might happen that the consideration
of colonial questions might often be postponed, still from
time to time there do arise questions that cannot be deferred
cousistently with the order and with the setisfaction of the
colonies, and which require, both as to their principle and
details, the undivided attention of the Secretary of State.
On these grounds, therefore, seeing the great war in which
we are engaged, the Government thought that these depart-
ments should be divided. With reference to the other
question—which, as I said, is of a totally different nature
—it is one that has from time to time occupied the atten-
tion of former Governments. It was not long after Earl
Grey's Government was formed that the Duke of Rich-
mond represented to Lord Grey that it was very desirable
to inquire whether the military departments might not be
consolidated with advantage to the conduct of public busi-
ness. An inquiry was made into that subject by a com-
mission consisting, besides the Duke of Richmond, of the
hon. member for Coventry (Mr. Ellice), and of Sir James
Kemp. Thore was also employed, as secretary to the com-
mission, a man of considerable ability, Mr. John Bissett,
once Commissary-General iu the Peninsula. But although
the Duke of Richmond arrived at conclusions in which I was
ready to concur, the Government did not think fit to adopt
them, in consequence of the practical difficulty of putting
them in force. At a later period the present Earl Grey,
when Secretary at War, assisted by some of his colleagues,
made very extensive inquiries, and proposed a different
scheme of arrangements. To that scheme of arrangements,
which consisted chiefly in placing the Secretary-at-War in
the position, though with the functions and the proper
attributes, of a Secretary of State, there were some objec-
tions, arising from the nature of the department, and
there were also other practical objections of a most forcible
nature which were stated by the Duke of Wellington. That
plan was not adopted, and I do not know that any subsequent
Government has proposed any inquiry into the subject. And
although from time to time, up to the present day, several
changes have been under consideration, no great or organie
change has been adopted. In considering this subject, it
has appeared to the Government that the chief inconvenience
that we have to complain of is, that, the military depart-
ments being divided into several heads, there is no su-
preme head which should govern those departments gene-
rally, I have stated on former occasions that I do not
think it any fault that separate official persons should have
separate duties, although they may belong generally to one
department. As on building this house, for instance, it,
would be absurd to endeavour to consolidate and join the
departments of the mason, the carpenter, and the brick-
layer, but it would be equally absurd to have three or four
architects, who should give different opinions as to the
general construction of the building. What is wanted,
therefore, is, one head, who should be able to take into
his view the wants, the requirements, and the duties of
the several departments, and to govern them with full in-
formation and with decision, and be able to come to a
final decision on the subjects which occupied his attention.
One of the departments which it is most obvious should
be placed under a Minister of War is the commissariat,
which is now a department of the Treasury. There are
reasons for that arrangement, connected not so much with
the distribution of provisions and supplies for the army,
as with the financial operations which the Treasury has to
perform in our different colonies. Now, although the
Treasury should have the general superintendence of the
financial concerns of the public, there does not seem any
convenience, but the contrary, in an officer of the Treasury
having the regulation of the pay and distribution of ra-
tions to the troops. That is business which deed not pro-
perly belong to a department which has-the general super-
vision and control of the financies of the country; it is an
executive function of itself, and therefore should belong
rather to an executive minister, such as a Secretary of State,
than to the department of the Treasury. The Government,
therefore,
therefore, are of opinion that, besides what I have stated
to the general direction of the operations of the war, the mi-
nister Secretary of State for War should take the direction
of the commissariat department. With respect to other
questions, there are many changes which havetobeefrceoant:
sidered ; but few which can at once be carried into
In considering this subject, I remembzr that the Duke of
Wellington gave the opinion that the plaster-General
the Ordnance was properly the officer oughtwilitohe
should have a
etoealthoef
military adviser of the Government, that
perfect knowledge of the military wants of the country,
and should be able from time to time togmivielitthaeryCtaobpinicest.
such advice as he should think proper o n
But although this is apparently, and may be occasionally,
.
it can very
a very good arrangement, it is obvious
seldom be practicable. If you could find heant
ordinary
oc-
casions a general who had taken a political part and held
the same opinions as the members of the Government,
supposing him to be in the prime of life, and his opinions
to beh held
called din
in regard to military subjects
esteem, it would seem vary ht, ss-
hevtehreyr he
o were generally
the Master-General of the Ordnance or by some other
name, that be should
i be the military adviser of the Go-
vernment. But this s very seldom the case, and we
vhich the office gene-
rally find that the mode
in
this. You find
a man e of Master-
General has been suppliedhurray, or Sir
is '
of
l
great military distinction—Sir George M
James Kemp, or the Marquis of Anglesey--appointed to
fill the office, who has won great honours in the field, and
who, therefore, is placed at. the head of the Ordnance de-
partment. But it is not satisfactory that, upon every
occasion, the Government should look to that officer for
the management of all the civil departments placed
under his care. For observe that his office, instead
of being, as it was considered to be at one ae, the