The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-22 00:00:00

the kingdom, so that the merchants might know what
were the proposed regulations, and might have an oppo
feel onr-
tunity of making any representations to the CI overurn_
which they might deem necessary. He did nothe
hLi
self in the slighest degree bound to any proposal
made. Every point he had stated he shouldwcaosniedseirroitto4
be subject to modification. The Government
of extending, iu every possible way, facilities to the most
time perfect freedom of trade which at the same were con-
sistent with a clue regard to the interests of the revenue
and of the fair trader. But, while that was the object in
framing these regulations, he for one thought—and he was
sure the right hon. gentlemani
the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would concur with him in the sentiment—that it
would be one of the highest crimes if, by trimming and
sailing with the public mind in the hope of catching the
popular breeze, they were to consent to make an inroad.
and breach upon a revenue of 22,000,C00/. a-year, over-
looking the amount of interests involved, or coultli for one
moment entertain a wish to do or be guilty of doing any-
thing that jeopardise the revenue of the country, or place
the fair trader in a disadvantageous position. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. gentleman concluded by moving that a
copy of the Treasury minute of the 17th of Augmie 1852,
e
concerning the regulations. of the Customs, and of the
reply of the commissioner ; and also of the Treasury
minute of the 14th of April, 1853, relating to the same
subject, be laid on the table.
Mr. MITCHELL said that the statement of the hon.
gentleman, except in one very important respect, which he
should notice by and by, appeared to him to be exceed-
ingly satisfactory. He had met the just claims of the mer-
cantile interest in a fair and liberal manner. With regard
to the appointment and promotion of officers, he (Mr.
Mitchell) did not know whether he rightly understood his
hon. friend. Was he to understand that any officer, to
whatever branch he might have been originally appointed,
would have the door open to him, for good conduct, to rise
in his profession ? Ho though the statement as to fines
and satisfaction was sufficiently clear, but when he found
that the officers had received for their share in one year
upwards of 10,0001., and that Sir T. Fremantle admitted
the system had a tendency to make the officers too strict,
he was of opinion that, except in the case of the Coast-
guard service, where life was risked, some material altera-
tion should b 3 adopted. The fund should be from profits
on sales on account of the Crown altogether. He was not
at all satisfied with respect to the system of ad valorem
duties ; and as to watches, a competent authority had
stated before the committee that 10s. each on &old, and 53.
on silver watches, without reference to their value, would be
sufficient for all purposes. The cheaper tribunals ought,
in his opinion, to be open in all cases where the duty in-
volved was under 1001., and not, ;as was proposed, where
duty and penalty came to that amount. He differed from
the Government altogether in the principle laid down with
respect to the bonded warehouse system, and thought that
it ought not to be compulsory to re-enter goods in mere
cases of transfer. As to the hours of attendance, it should
be recollected that practically half an hour was lost every
day to the merchants and traders, and that 30 years ago
the hours were from 6 o'clock till 6, while the committee
recommended from 7 o'clock to 5, and the Government
adopted from 8 o'clock to 4. This was a great rostriction
on business. He begged to suggest that there ought to be
a great simplification of the system of entry with regard to
free
.goods, which at present entailed a loss on the mercan-
tile interest or London, taking the average fees on each
entry at 75., of about 25,0001. a-year, while for practical
or statistical purposes it was perfectly useless. With re-
spect to the case of smuggling, he must say he_ quite agreed
with the hon. gentleman as to Mr. Marchand's case ; but
he did not think that Mr. Travers had done more than say
that if Mr. Marchand's story was true he was a very ill-
used man. Before he sat down he must observe, that the
hon. gentleman had left out of his bill the first recommen-
dation of the committee, that the constitution of the
Board of Customs should be changed. (Hear, hear.) As
it now stood, the board did not possess the confidence of
the public. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman the
other night said he was sure the house would not object to
extend the powers possessed by such men as Sir. T. Fre-
mantle and Mr. Wood. He was one who very much ob-
jected to do so. (Hear, hoar.) He was sure the house
would not forget that it was under the administration of
Sir T. Fremantle that proceedings were instituted, unpre-
cedented in the history of this country, against two great
dock companies, possessing a capital of 5,000,000 h sterling.
(Hear, hear.) He believed he spoke the sense of the com-
mercial world of London and of the empire when he said
the present board did not possess their confidence, and that
no Customs reform could be satisfactory till the constitu-
tion of the board was altered. The instigator and adviser
of these proceedings was the solicitor of the board, who
had been an obscure attorney in the inland town of Tam-
worth, whore he could not possibly have acquired any
knowledge of commercial affairs. He was first appointed
assistant-solicitor, but in three years, by the compulsory
retirement of the chief solicitor, he was advanced to the I
office of that gentleman, and being, as he supposed, a vain,
conceited man, set to work to distinenish himself, and
induced the board to take those unconstitutional and
illegal proceedings. (Hear, hear.) As long as that gen-
tleman was solicitor to the Board of Customs not a mer-
cantile man was safe in his transactions, and after the tri-
bute paid by the hon. gentleman and by the right hon.
gentleman the other night to the heads of this department
he said so much by way of protest, and lest it should be
supposed he acquiesced in that praise. No change that
took place could be for the worse, and he trusted Govern-
ment would listen to the recommendations which had been
made to them, and that some gentleman who had been en-
gaged in mercantile life would be placed on the board when
reconstituted.
Mr. TURNER would leave the details of the plan to the
judgment of the various commercial associations of the
empire, but could not refrain from thanking the hon. gen-
tleman and the Government for the great boon they had
conferred on Liverpool by giving it a local board, and thus
saving the merchants the delay and annoyance of references
to London. He also thanked them for giving jurisdiction
to the County Court in cases up to 1001., but thought the
penalty should not be included in that amount. The judge
of the Liverpool County Court was a gentleman of great
ability, and was able to give satisfaction in cases of far
larger amount, if left to his decision.
Mr. WILLIAMS recommended the Government to ap-
point a member of that house to the board. He thought
the plan likely to do service, but nothing good could be
done till the Board of Customs was changed.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON expressed his satisfaction at the
measure introduced by the hon. gentleman opposite.
(Hear, hear.) The subject had been under the considera-
tion of the late Government, and he knew that many of
the suggestions of the hon. gentleman, which had been en•
tertained by them, were calculated to facilitate business,
and to produce the greatest benefit to the trading com-
munity. With reference to the complaints of Mr. Mar-
chand, he was at the Treasury at the time they were
originally made, and, having given the subject full con-
sideration, he must say it had appeared to him to be about
as atrocious a case of smuggling as had ever existed—(hear)
—and he was surprised that it had imposed upon the
respectable gentlemen who appeared to have taken it up.
Upon the subject of the admission of free goods, great care
had to be taken lest in facilitating the operations of trade
the Board of Customs encouraged smuggling, to the detri-
ment of the revenue and the injury of the fair trader.
(Hear.) With reference to the Commissioners of Customs,
he was sure that everyone who had had to do with them,
and especially with Sir Thomas Fremantle, must bear tes-
timony to the great intelligence and the great energy of
that most estimable public officer, and the great zeal which
he displayed on every occasion to facilitate the operations
of trade as far as was consistent with a due regard to the
public revenue. (Hear.)
Mr. WHALLEY complained that no drawbacks were
allowed to yachtsmen for wines, spirits, and things of that
sort, which they wished to take out of the country, the
consequence of which was that they went abroad to buy
those articles, and that to that extent the trade of this
country was a loser. He should be glad to find that some
portion of the zeal and ability which the hon. gentleman
had devoted to the subject generally, would be paid to this
small matter. With reference to the charges which had
been brought against the dock companies, h thought that
whatever there was to be regretted in that transaction,
arose from the nature of the service, and was not owing to
the gentlemen who administered the Customs department.
M. JOHN M'GRECIOR thought that when it was con-
sidered that 22,000,0001. of the revenue of this country
was derived from articles of import, and that the collection
of this large amount was intrusted to men who were very
poorly paid for the services they performed, it was a mat-
ter cf astonishment, considering the temptations which
prevailed, that there was not more dishonesty and fraud.
(Hear.) In France, Prussia, Holland, and the United
States, simplicity was the chief characteristic of the fiscal
regulations, and his own view with regard to the manage-
ment of the Customs department in this country was that
we ought to adopt something like the system which existed
there, and have one chief head or director, with a deputy
under him, dividing-the whole management of the Customs
into different section;—one for -foreign, another for home
trade and navigation, a warehouse and dock department,
and one for keeping the accounts. (Hear.) On the pert
of his constituents, and he might say of the commercial
community generally, he expressed his thanks to the hon.
gentleman for the proposals he had made this evening to
facilitate the trade of the country. (Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was
in no respect necessary for him to enter upon a discussion
of the numerous points of detail—very important though
they were—which had been included in the very able
statement of his hon. friend. There were some of those
points with respect to which it would be much better for
hon. members to have the opportunity of reading the mi-
nute of the Treasury before any further expression of
opinion took place upon them ; but he wished to say one
word with regard to a topic which had been revived in this
discussion—revived, ho must say, somewhat to his regret.
(Hear.) He did not think any advantage was to be gained
by resuscitating the feelings that were connected with the
controversy between the Board of Cuetonis and the Dock
Companies. (Hear.) He thought they had fairly passed
by that controversy, and that the recollection of those
events was retained by none except for the purpose of
learning a lesson of caution for the future. As it was he
must regret that the hon. member for Bridport (Mr.
Mitchell) should take this occasion to pass a censure upon
the persons engaged in that proceeding. The hon. member
had had an opportunity of bringing out all the proceedings
before the committee
h;
and the matter was considered by
the committee, who liad declined to entertain or to express
the views which the hon. member had thought proper now
to
lay before the house. The hon. member seemed to think
at what had been stated by his hon. friend (Mr. Wilson)
that tiro,
nand what he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
that the intenliformer occasion, conveyed the impression
Board of Custom of the Government was to give to the
the first place, he
lai,agdreat extension of powers. Now, in
never mentioned the Board of ens-
terns at all on the
i7daszin referred to, and in the second
place, although he d
heerbin terms Of commendation to
Sir Thomas Fremantle
Thomas
said anything about
giving extended powers to Si? laorrias Fremantle. °He was
speaking of bringing in the ae
of the board under the
ahtel:rsilviivitast e said was, that he
supervision of that bouse,e
possessed of the believed the the heads of th
rit of economy, and that h e thoughetrt
before the house would perhaps strengthenrn the
haacncdosunitns
t.i.lliiini-tlernan the
enforcing economy. (Hear, hear.) The honln
re ealber for Bridport complained of the o
the
statement of his hon. friend of what related to tohnefkar d
Customs. He quite agreed with the hon. gentleman in of
view he took of the importance of that subject. The co
th!
stitution of
,the governing authority was of vital conse-
quence to the administration of the entire system. (Hear,
hear.) But the hon. gentleman was very greatly mistaken
if he supposed that the subject had been overlooked. The
fact that there had been two vacancies in the board since
the accession to office of the present Ministry, and that nei-
ther of those vs eancies had been filled up, was a pretty
clear proof that they thought this point worthy of consi-
deration. Mit it was not a subject to be decided as a-mere
sine (I,e.stion, nor one to be decided in a day.
gentleman (Mr. Mitchell) had very clear
and decisive views upon it. He appeared to think that the
fault of which he complained lay with the individuals
ofduals who
now comnosed the hoard. Now he (thel
ch the
Exchequer) wr.3 of a contrary opinion.aineccwas not of
opinion that by changing the
.awrovinff file s they
tv,:ou,ld,have
any very great hope of materially il

and he did not think the individuals composing the board
wore very much to blame. These questions,however—the
question whether men of mercantile experience should, bo
members of the board—whether any individual member of
the board was to sit in Parliament, and how, if he did,
his relations to the chairman, while the chairman did not
sit in Parliament, were to be maintained—together with
the further and still more important question raised bythe
hon. member for Glasgow (Mr. John M`Gregor), whether
there was to be a board at all, or whether they ought to
concentrate the responsibility in the hands of a chief and
deputies—these were most important questions, which, in
his judgment—and ho took to himself the responsibility of
not submitting at once to Parliament a distinct plan on the
subject—required mature consideration on the part of the
entire Government, and which he thought it would be
better to postpone until the pressure of the heavy business
new occupying the attention of the Government was abated,
and then they would be able to give the subject the most
careful and deliberate attention, with the view to the adop-
tion of that system which would best contribute to the se-
curity of the revenue and to the facility of the trade of the
country. (Hear, hear.) He begged the hon.gentleman to
believe that this question had not been neglected, and if it
had been postponed it was only because, being fully
aware of its importance, the Government were desirous
of giving to it all the consideration it deserved. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. W. BROWN was glad to hear what the right hon.
gentleman had said about the constitution of the Board of
Customs, and should like to see one individual responsible
for the good management of the entire department. (Hear,
hear.) His constituents would be exceedingly gratified by
the plan his hon. friend had propounded to-mght, though
there might be some points of detail on which they would
be able to suggest improvements which would make the
whole plan still more desirable.
Mr. J. A. SMITH thanked the hon. gentleman for the
great boon which he had conferred upon the commerce of
England by this revision of the Customs regulations, and
said he knew enough of these details, of their difficulty and
intricacy, to be able to estimate properly the zeal and the
labour which the hon. gentleman must have bestowed in
mastering them as he showed he had done that evening.
(Hear.) Some weeks ago he had been a member of a most
remarkable deputation which waited on the Chancellor of
the Exchequer to bring this subject under his notice, and
the right hon. gentleman had most nobly redeemed the
hopes he had held out to that deputation. (Haar.) With
reference to the constitution of the Board of Customs, and
the remarks which had been made on that subject by the
hon. member for Bridport (Mr. Mitchell), he believed that
gentleman had only expressed the opinion of a very large
majority of the commercial community of London. (Hear.)
They had felt most deeply upon this subject, and he did
not believe the hon. member had uttered one word which
would not be adopted by them. (Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY said the hon. gentleman had introduced
into his scheme the principle of a local tribunal for the
decision of cases, and it would contribute very much to
the satisfaction of all parties if these cases were heard
before the commissioners who had to give the decision.
He said this because he understood from the statement of
the hon. gentleman that evidence was to be taken and the
parties to be brought before one commissioner, who was
then to report to the board, and the board were to decide.
It would be much more desirable, however' in his opinion,
if those persons had to decide the case who heard witnesses
and who saw their demeanour. He had heard with satis-
faction that it was intended to refer many of those cases
to the County Courts, but he questioned very much the
propriety of sending such cases before the magistrates.
Mr. W. D. SEYMOUR regretted that any hon, member
should have gone out of his way to pass a censure upon the
gentleman who held the office of Solicitor of the Customs.
He could bear testimony to the private respectability of
that gentleman, and the great amount of ability and in-
formation which he possessed. He had been spoken of as
an obscure country attorney, but it was the first time he
had heard that the obscurity of a man at any period of his
life should be a bar to the possession of important offices.
Mr. Hamel was chosen to the office he held by the late Sir
R. Peel—whose solicitor he was—as the man best adapted
for the service. (Hear.) When there was no charge of
maladministration charged against him, he thought it was
rather hard that he should be made the object of animad-
version by any hon. member in that house.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON generally approved the
measures which had been submitted to the house by the
hon. Secretary to the Treasury, and he congratulated the
house and the country most heartily on the changes that
were about to take place. (Hear, hear.) He had looked
with the greatest dissatisfaction for the last 30 years to
the way in which our Customs laws had been administered.
(Hear, hear.) During that period they had been giving
increased facilities to the trede of the country by the re-
moval of duties and other remedial measures, while the
Board of Customs were not merely adhering to the old
system, but adopting measures more restrictive than any
that existed during the war. (Hear, hear.) He could not
approve of the mode in which cases of seizure were to be
heard before the commissioners. The only way to stop
smuggling was to hear every case in open court, and
pronounce judgment so as to bring disgrace on the per-
sons engaged in it. (Hear, hear.) It was his decided
opinion that proper men had not been selected for the ad-
ministration of the Customs ; but he hoped that would be
corrected, and was glad to hear that the subject was
under the consideration of the Government. (Hear, hear.)
He had heard a high eulogium passed upon Mr. Hamel.
He knew nothing of that gentleman, but what he heard
when he appeared as a witness before the committee, and
he must say that while he concurred in what had been
said as to the talents of Mr. Hamel, he did not think he had
discharged the functions of his office in a way that con-
duced to the public interests. (Hear, hear.) If the hon.
member who passed the eulogium would go to the minutes
of the committee, he would there find what was the opi-
nion of the committee regarding him. He would have re-
ceived the severest censure that ea
committee could pass on
any individual, but was saved from that condemnation by
the vote of a single member. (Hear, hear.) He believed
that if the salary and expenses of the solicitors had been
paid out of the Exchequer, and returns regularly made as
to what they were, occasioned by, they would not have
heard of such a thing as that official filing 120 ex-officios in
the manner he had done. (Hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN said, his hon. friend had never at-
tempted during the 30 years of which he had spoken to
correct the grievances of which he complained, although
two bills on the subject of the Customs had passed :while
he was a member of the house. He would, therefore, pu
his 30 years' silence in opposition to his present statement
The persons charged with the administration of the Cus.
tonis occupied the highest positions as to private character,
and, were wholly incapable of the charges preferred
against them. (Hear.) He concurred in what had been
said as to the ability with which the Secretary to the
Treasury had developed the views of the Government.
What he proposed to do would materially relieve trade,
and, if carried out with proper care, would not, he be-
lieved, interfere with the due collection of the revenue.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. FORSTER was highly gratified with the state-
ment which had been made on the part of the Government.
Reference had been made to Mr. Hamel, and he must say
that that individual left a very bad impression on his mind,
and he believed on the minds of all the committee. The
hon. member for Sunderland (Mr. Seymour), however,
seemed to have a brotherly feeling for one of his own pro-
fession.
Mr. W.D. SEYMOUR wishedto explain that in what he
had said he was only influenced by a sense of duty. He
might state the fact also that Mr. Hamel was paid by
salary and not by fees.
The papers were then ordered to be printed.
PILOTAGE BILL.
Mr. CARDWELL, having presented two petitions in
favour of this measure from merchants, masters of vessels,
and others of Liverpool, moved that the house go into
committee on the bill.
Me. TURNER moved, by way of amendment, that the
bill be referred to a select committee. The interests at
stake, both as regarded the persons immediately connected,
in one way and another, with pilotage, and as regarded the
lives and property of the public, were so vast, and the
question itself was so complicated, that a select committee
could alone properly investigate the subject. The hon.
gentleman had presented, indeed, petitions in favour of
this bill from certain merchants, masters of vessels, and
others of Liverpool, but he was prepared to state that the
very large majority of the merchants of that port, and of
the masters and mates cf vessels there, were decidedly
opposed to the measure as it now stood, and assuredly the
opinion of the port of Liverpool, so greatly exceeding in
business as it did the port of London, was entitled, on
such a matter, to the serious consideration of the house.
The underwriters at that port., men well qualified to give
their judgment on the subject, were also decidedly opposed
to the bill, and, indeed, it might be said that almost the
only persons connected with the trade of Liverpool who
advocated the measure were the masters and mates of the
steam-vessels. He was ready to admit that the pilotage
charges to which these vessels had been subjected in the
port of Liverpool were too heavy, but the Pilot Board.
there had agreed to reduce those charges. The Pilot Board.
of Liverpool was not composed of pilots, or of persons con-
nected with the pilots, but of merchants, whose obvious
interest it was to keep the pilots and their-charges under
proper control. Whether and in what way the com-
position of the local pilot boards might he improved was a
point which a select committee could efficiently consider.
The centralising of the authority under the Board of Con-
trol seemed a most extraordinary thing, without any good
;round, and against the opinions of those who thought
:hat instead of 39,090 vessels going out of port without a
single loss, the probability would be they would have a
tremendous loss of life and property. The only objection
to the present system was, he believed, the charges, and
that point he was quite willing to leave to the decission of
the Board of Trade. He hoped, therefore, the Govern-
ment would accede to the proposition he had made, or, if
not, that the parties whom he represented would be heard
before they proceeded further will the bill.
Sir E. DERING supported the amendment, for if ever
there was a bill that required the strictest investigation it
was a bill of this nature, which affected the great maritime
interests of this country as well as the vested interests ofa most
useful class of individuals—the pilots of the United King-
dom. He thought there was not much difficulty in show-
ing that advantages were given by it to the Trinity Board
pilots over those of the Cinque Ports. By this bill it was
proposed to continue to the former the same system that
now prevailed in the port of London—that was, to allow
every shipowner to pick and choose his own pilots; in
other words, to perpetuate a system fraught with bribery
and jobbing beyond all measure; while as to the Cinque
Ports the present system of rotation was preserved. The
next question was, that the Cinque Port pilots were bound
to cruise night and day, and for that purpose to subscribe
a large sum to maintain boats in an efficient state. For
that service they received a certain sum for every pilot
put on board a vessel, and that fund, after providing for
the expenses of their boats, was divided among them ; but
to meet that system he found no provision in this bill.
(Hear.) Now, during the last 20 years, of the whole num-
ber of vessels worked up the river, only one had been lost
by the misconduct of the Cinque Port pilots. He hoped,
therefore, the house would pause before it interfered with
the rights they had so long enjoyed, and which were sanc-
tioned by act of Parliament. The next question was as to
the pilots' fund. Every pilot paid ss. each voyage to the
fund, and from it their widows received annuities of 12
guineas each. A payment of 11. was also made on the
formed a
deathan of each pilot. Those payments wore compulsory,
sasdotaheractszeiostninsh,gips pilotsthaht ahealdpnaioett ntheeartlyriltiOs,hoooreigi.
stTehr,erwehwicash
bill, placed nrlre,
sort of superannuation fund for the pilots. All
these funds without distinction, ac'.:ording to this
he made no charselich powers to any body ; and, although
itunwise
to
give: control of the Trinity -house. Ho thought
cult to reconcile niarnst the Trinity Board, it was
ditli-
the principles of conam"Y of their present regulations with
Justice, or, he would almost say,
____lfs itleillustration of that, he would
,he te,,ok a vessel from the port of
mofenctoimonmon these s e
ra s :
without
tnavigate it with his own
London to Plymouth
sailing-master and crew
9• pilot ; but if he went
to the coast of France, then his Snail naaster was declared
incompetent, and he must take on Tog- pilot ; and that
was, not on account of the dietinctionaliset a eon the coasting
o_
trade and foreign trade, but the destination, stinatin, —for although
he went to Calais with ballast, h l
must have a pilot ; yet

if he went to the Baltic with a valuable cargo, no pilot was
required. The house would decide whether these regula-
tions showed such sagacity on the part of the Trinity Board
as to induce that house to give them further powers. If,
however, the house should be of opinion that all the pilots
should be under one uniform authority, it wuuld only b.,
right that the governing body, be it what it might, should
exercise the greatest impartiality the very large and discre-
tionary powers proposed to be given by this bill. He trusted
the bill would not be considered a party question, and he
utterly disclaimed any sinister motive whatever in sup-
porting the amendment.
Colonel HARCOURT said the Isle of Wight pilots com-
plained of being subjected to great grievances as compared
with the pilots of Southampton, for, not only did the latter
claim the privilege of piloting vessels through the river,
but also out to sea. Not that he should have objected to
that if the Isle of Wight pilots had been allowed to pilot
vessels which they had taken charge of at sea up to South-
ampton ; but that was not the case. While, too, the Isle
of Wight or Cowes pilots were ppid only 31., the South-
ampton pilots were paid 61. 10s. Tho former were also
obliged to maintain much larger, and therefore more expen-
sive, boats than were required for the pilots of Southamp-
ton. He referred to certain regulations of the Trial; y-
house, and to other matters, which he said operated as
grievances on the Isle of Wight pilots and constituted
strong grounds for inquiry before a select committee.
Lord A. PAGET pbserved that in case of grievance the
pilots of the Isle of Wight could have redress from the
Board of Trade if the present bill passed. As the hon.
member for Berwick had expressed an opinion that the
Pilotage Bill would not be of any benefit to the shipowners,
he begged to state that an important document had been
forwarded to him from a large body of shipowners in the
port of London, representing 350,000 tons of shipping.
The document had appended to it the names, among others,
of Mr. Green, Mr. Phillips, Mr. Ingram, and Mr. Lindsay,
and set forth that the undersigned British shipowners were
of opinion that the proposed Pilotage Bill would be of
great benefit to the shipping interest, especially as related
to the system of the Cinque Port pilotage, as it would
open a competition among the pilots, and, by their having
cruising licenses, would encourage them to seek ships off
Dungeness before the danger commenced, in lieu of await-
ing their arrival within that point, which had hitherto
been almost invariably the case, thereby jeopardising the
safety of many of the valuably freighted inward bound
ships, their supineness having originated from the mono-
poly they had up to the present period enjoyed. (Hear.)
He certainly thought that the bill would be considered a
great boon by the shipping interest.
Mr. GEORGE gave his hearty support to the bill, which
interest
connected his opinion did justice to the important steam
connected with the port of Liverpool. Ho warmly ap-
proyed of the poNYer of appeal to the Board of Trade in the
event of the local boards refusing to license competent
masters and mates; and, to show the injurious operation
of the existing system, he referred to the case of the Dublin
and Liverpool Steam Company. The masters and mates
employed by the company were experienced men, and
knew every crevice of the port of Liverpool, but the local
board refused to license them. In the last three years the
company's vessels had made 2,7,16 voyages from port to
port. In only 245 cases had they employed the Liverpool
pilots, and they had been compelled to pay for that service
no less than 4,5001., being at the rate of 1,5001. a year.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HILDYARD complained that the Liverpool board
dealt as unjustly by the masters and mates of the steam-
vessels plying between that port and Whitehaven as they
did those of the Dublin company.
Mr. LABOUCHERE looked upon the bill as a great
boon to the mercantile marine. The local interest had
always exercised a powerful influence in preventing the
adoption of any measure calculated to improve the present
defective system of pilotage. By means of that influence a
bill, introduced by the late Lord Sydenham, was defeated,
which, had it been adopted, would have saved the shipping
interest a large sum of money. A better spirit would, he
trusted, animate the house on this occasion, and induce
them to reject the amendment. The proposal for sending
the bill to a select committee was a specious one, but,
if the house agreed to it, the reformation of the pilotage
system would be postponed to the Greek Balends. (Hear,
hear.)
Lord CHELSEA wished the bill to be referred to a COM-

mittee. He thought that a conclusive reason for adopting
that course was to be found in the 9th clause of the bill,
which proposed to deal with the funds of the Cinque Ports.
That subject could alone be done justice to in a committee
upstairs.

Mr. CARDWELL said, that after the support which
the measure had received from both sides of the house—
after the repeated addresses which it had been his duty to
make on former stages of the bill—he should not at that
late hour occupy the time of the house by going into de-
tails. (Hear, hear.) He should reserve those for the com-
mittee of the whole house, to which it appeared to be the
general desire of bon. members to send it. Ho only wished
to make one observation, for the purpose of bringing the
sincerity of hon. members to the test on the subject. They
had passed the second reading of the bill without a divi-
sion. Did they intend that the shipowners and those who
were engaged in the commerce of the country should have
the benefit of the reform of which the house had declared
its approval by that second reading? Because, if so, they
ought to advance the bill the present stage, and permit the
house to enter upon that fair deliberation which the sub-
ject required.. (Hear.) If they sent the bill to a select
committee, and called witnesses on the various points, as
was now proposed, when, he should like to know, would
the bill again make its appearance in that house? The
noble lord the member for Dover (Lord Chelsea) had spoken
of the state of the funds of the Cinque Ports as a reason
for sending the bill to a committee upstairs. • With respect
to that point, he begged to say that it was one which had
engaged, and should continue to engage, his careful atten-
tion ; and he should be ready, when they got to that clause
either to vindicate its provisions or substitute some rea-
sonable alterations ; but he should protest as far as in him
lay against sacrificing the important principles of the bill
by the unavoidable delay which would be the consequence
of sending it to a select committee. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HENLEY said that no objections were taken to
what the hon. gentleman had called the principles of his
bill ; but the first nine clauses had nothing whatever to do
with those principles. They referred to an entirely sepa-
rate and distinct subject—viz., the sweeping away of an
ancient corporation and joining it to another, and that,
apparently, without affording any protection to the inte-
rests of the body which it proposed to sweep away ; and
he would ask whether they were more likely to delay-the
bill by discussing the financial question involved in those
clauses over the table of that house, or by quietly endea-
vouring to settle the question in a committee upstairs to
the satisfaction of all the parties concerned ? (Hear, hear.)
He desired to see a good bill pass, and he would lend his
best endeavours to perfect a good measure, but it was im-
possible to discuss such a bill properly across the table of
that house.

The house then divided ; the numbers were,
For going into committee ... ... .. 219
.
For the amendment ... ... ...
... 83

Majority
.. 136
The house went into committee pro forma, but immedi-
ately afterwards resumed.
SHERIFF COURTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill went through committee pro forma, when
several amendments were introduced.
COURTS OF COMMON LAW (IRELAND) BILL.
The house then went into committee on this bill.
Mr. WHITESIDE said, it was impossible at that late
hour (nearly half-past 12) to go into a discussion of the
measure ; and, as he had on a former occasion postponed
the bill at the request of the Government, he hoped the
noble lord, in accordance with the promise which had
been made, would give him a good position on a Govern-
ment night.
Lord J. RUSSELL was quite willing that the bill
should come on as Government business, but he could not
fix a day for it until he saw the progress of the financial
measures. Ho would name, for the present, Monday week.
HACKNEY CARRIAGES.

Mr. FITZROY moved for leave to introduce a bill for
Le better regulation of hackney carriages in the metopolis,
and briefly stated his reasons for thinking further legisla-
tion on the subject desirable. The great extent of the
metropolis, and the increase of railway traffic, had ren-
dered hackney carriages an indispensable necessity to its
inhabitants, but in no capital of Europe were such carriages
so entirely removed from all efficient control and super-
vision as in London. He thought this state of.things arose
principally from the existing system of licensing these
vehicles. No restrictions were imposed upon the number
of licenses issued ; nor was the fitness of the carriages for
the purposes for which they were to be used any part of
the condition upon which the licenses were issued. To a
small extent personal disqualifications existed with regard
to applicants for licenses in the case of convicted thieves
and minors, but these disqualifications were rather nominal
than real.. The consequence was, a crowd of vehicles, of
a very inferior description, and with horses that had been
graphically described by our first living novellist as eel::
kept upon their legs by the rickety vehicles to which they
were attached. (Hear, hear.) It appeared to hint
Fitzroy) that the shortest way of securing to the inhabi-
tants of this metropolis vehicles in a fit and proper con-
dition for public use would be by entirely altering the
system upon which licenses were issued, and he therefore
proposed to introduce in this bill a provision that every
person desirous of obtaining a license for using, or letting
to hire, a hackney-carriage within the limits of the metro-
politan police district, should make his intention known
to the Commissioners of Police, who should thereupon
cause an inspection of the carriage for which he asked
a license, and upon their !certificate that it was in a fit
and proper condition for public use he should obtain a
license from the Board of Inland Revenue. Power
would also be given to the Commissioners of Police from
time to time to cause a fresh inspection of these carriages,
and if a carriage should be found out of proper con-
dition the license would be suspended. There would
be a penalty attached to the letting to hire any vehicle
of this description after due notice by the Commissioners
of Police that it was not fit for public use. (Hear, hear.)
But, in addition to the unsatisfactory condition of
these vehicles, the fare demanded for their use was
excessively exorbitant. (Hear, hear.) No change had
been made in that fare since its first introduction in 1831.
Amid the general—he might say universal—tendency
towards reduction in articles of general consumption, two
things had hitherto successfully resisted tho tendency. One
was the pint of extraordinary compound still called by
courtesy a bottle of wine at an inn—(hear, hear), and the
other the fare paid per mile for the use of a hack cab.
(Hear, hear.) We were now arrived at a time when there
was every reason for reducing that fare by at least 25 per
cent. ; and he should therefore propose that it be fixed at
Gd. per mile. (Hear, hear.) Without giving any other
reason, the decrease in the price of forage was alone suffi-
cient to justify this. Oats, which in April, 1831, cost
235. 10d., were now at 19s. Bd., having fallen between 20
and 25 per cent. (Hear, hear.) But, independent of the
exorbitant amount of tho fare, there were great objections
to its nature, in consequence of the broken money involved
in the question. If you took a cab for a mile, you hardly
dare meet the torrent of abuse that would be levelled at
you if you failed to pay the driver is —(hear, hear), and
the consequence was, that instead of &I. the fare was Is.
—(hear, hear) ; besides which, the hirers had no satisfac-
tory means of ascertaining the distance they were taken.
(Hear.) He proposed, therefore, that tho Commissioners
of Police should, wherever they conveniently could, upon
the stand cause some notice on a board to be put up, as at
many railway stations, specifying the distance from that
stand to the places most likely to be resorted to, and that
they be authorised to appoint men at the different stands
who should be furnished with lists signed by the Commis-
sioners of Polies, and whose duty should be, on applica-
tion, to inform the hirer the amount of faro to which he
would be liable. (Hear, hear.) This would tend much to
the convenience of ladies and others who used cabs and
were at present subject to imposition. (Hear, hear.) The
reduction of fare would be ro great hardship upon the
proprietors. The expense of forage had been already men-
tioned ; and the Chancellor of the Exchequer explained in
his financial statement that upon the passing of this bill ho
would reduce the charge for licenses to cab proprietors.
Independent of the original license, which was to be charged
from SC. to IC. per annum, the license now charged 100.