The Sun.
London, England, 1853-03-02 00:00:00

Sp,N, LONDON, W IDNESDAY EVENING, MARCH 2, 1853.

skilled labour—these things commended them to the con-
sideration of the house. Attention had been called to the
case elf the country letter-carriers, who were prohibited
from soliciting, not from receiving, Christmas-boxes,
though that probably did not make much difference. The
Postmaster-General very much concurred in the observa-
tions that had been made on their case. Ho had it at this
moment under consideration, with a view to rectifying it
in such a way as should prove of advantage to the Post-
office service. (Hear.) As the question involved a large
sum of money, there being thousands of persons employed
as letter-carriers throughout the country, it would be right
to allow the Postmaster-General full time to consider the
best mode of meeting the case. (Hear, hear.) As to the
London letter-carriers, the Postmaster-General was also
quite prepared to admit that there was at present an ine-
quality greater than was sanctioned or justified by the dif-
ference of duties they had to perform, and which ought to
be remedied in some way or other. (Hear, hear.) A dif-
ference had subsisted for some years. It had arisen out
of circumstances very different from those now existing.
The frequent arrival of mails during the dity, and the
arrival of foreign mails, the contents of which must
necessarily be conveyed to every district at the earliest
possible moment, had greatly increased the duties de-
volving on the district
.letter-carriers. One of the ori-
ginal reasons in favour of a higher remuneration to the
twopenny-postmen still existed—they were obliged to
attend at very early hours to assist in the in-door business
of sorting letters. The difference of wages was not so
great as that of the superannuation allowance ; and the
public service had probably been injured by reducing the
superannuation allowance, because men sought to retain
the situations longer than they were able to perform the
duties. At present the superannuation allowance to the
general post letter-carriers varied from 201. to 501., accord-
ing to the length of service ; the highest amount that had
recently been given was 231. Bs. The Postmaster-General
allowed that that was a subject which would readily ad-
mit of some consideration. The complaint of the provin-
cial letter-carriers was already under his lordship's consi-
deration ; and he (Mr. Wilson) was sure the house would
rather leave the matter in his hands, with a view to arriv-
ing at a fair arrangement than deal with it themselves.
As to the anomalies said to exist in various parts of the
country, nothing could be more unfair or unjust thai
that salaries should be paid to public servants without re-
gard to the ordinary wages in those districts. It was well
known that the rate of wages was very different
at Hertford, for instance, from what it was in a large
manufacturing town like Glasgow ; and it was the duty of
the Postmaster-General to consider at what rate he could
get those services performed. He would be ,much blamed
were he to pay 20s. a week to those men in the agricultu-
ral districts, because they were receiving 20s. in Liverpool
and other large towns. The honourable gentleman had
said, that the number of postmen should be in pro-
portion to the population. He could not take a more
fallacious test. At Liverpool packets were arriving at all
hours of the night, at uncertain times ; and to consult the
oonvenience of the commercial public, who were anxious
to have the letters brought by those packets with the least
delay, it was necessary to have a large force of men in
waiting, in order that no time might be lost on the arrival
of a packet. Again, at Birmingham, which was a great
thoroughfare for the mails to and from other towns, it was
impossible that the number of men employed in the Post-
office service should be regulated by the population of the
place, or that it should be any test at all. This was a
question of very serious financial interest. He was cer-
tain the house would not be parsimonious in doing justice
to such a deserving body of men ; but, considering the
immense amount of money paid for the management of
the Post-office, and the large proportion of the receipts now
sacrificed (he did not say improperly so) in that way, it
was evident that the slightest increase in the wages of
thousands of persons, unless absolutely necessary, must
form a very large charge upon the remaining small balance.
Wherever application was made to the Postmaster-General
or the Treasury in cases of this kind, a remedy was applied
if necessary. But it would be impossible to lay down a
general rule ; he therefore hoped the house would leave the
Government to deal with the cases as they occurred, ac-
cording to the merits of each ; and each case would receive
the utmost attention.
After some further discussion, the motion was with-
drawn.

and rr .rded marriage as a civil contract, he could not see
why th jurisdiction in such cases should be confined to the
ecclesis, tical courts; In most continental countries the
power o f granting divorces men= et thoro was in the hands
of the or linary civil courts, and he saw no reason why it
should n t be so here. The present law of divorce ;eras a
great ha: !ship on the poor man, who could not get rid of
his wife ruder any circumstances. (" Hear," and a laugh.)
If the jurrsdiction of the ecclesiastical courts were abolished
in this respect, of course it would be to be considered to
what tribunal it should be transferred. There were other
matters over which the ecclesiastical courts had now juris-
diction, as in the enforcement of church rates (hear), which
he hoped they would not long be troubled with, for he did
expect that the subject of it would be abolished by the pre-
sent Govern 'exit. (Cheers.) They had jurisdiction nomi-
nally too in titters partaking both of a civil and ecclesias-
tical charm: but in which they had no power to enforce
•it. They h ,urisdiction in cases of heresy, fornication,
procuratior A they had power of excommunication, but
could not r lige it. (A laugh.) These courts were, in
fact, but t. Ladows of what they were—they belonged
to times l since gone by, when there was but one
Church, to all belonged, and from which none dared
to dissent res when the Church had all the power, be-
cause all t olowledge ; when her decrees were respected
by all, and tonarchs as well as subjects trembled at her
frown. Bi hose times had gone by, and it was time that
those instil ..ons which belonged to them, and were a part
of them, el bo abolished, and the system placed on a
footing mo. :onsonant with the civilisation of the times.
(Hear, beat One word on the subject of vested interests.

He was by means disposed to deny the claims of vested
interests. C ipensation, of course, would have to be given
to those wh add offices in these courts, and the bar and
the proctors vho practised there should be allowed to prac-
tise in the dinary courts as barristers and attorneys, or
solicitors. With regard to the Court of Admiralty, that
was not open to the same complaints as the other Coln is of
civil law. In many respects that court worked beneficially,
especially in cases of collision, salvage, &c., wherein it pos-
sessed powers which the courtsi of common law had not.
The practice of that court of consulting the Trinity
masters was also highly useful. It was, however, felt in
seaports such as that he represented that a local adminis-
tration of the Court of Admiralty was desirable in order
to avoid the expense and delay of sending to London for
the trial of Admiralty cases. It would be worth the con-
sideration of the committee whether the county court
judges of the district in which such towns were situated,
or the recorder of such towns, might not be safely intrusted
with the jurisdiction in such cases. If a precedent was re-
quired for what he proposed, they had it in Scotland,
where the jurisdiction of the Court of Commissaries and
the Court of Admiralty had been trapsferred to the Courts
of Session. After speaking of the blow progreVis made in
law reform, and the multitude of statutes over 'which the
laws were extended, he observed that he feared much
blame was due to the profession who had too much neg-
lected the legal maxim cessante ration cessat lex.
Mr. HUME congratulated the house on the accession of
the hon. and learned member who had just sat down to a
seat in it. He had shown an intimate acquaintance with
the details, and great power in dealing with the principles
of the question he had brought forward, which must al-
ways command attention in that house. (Cheers.) Ho
hoped the government would sanction the committee, from
which he anticipated beneficial results.
,He had much
pleasure in seconding the motion.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was exceedingly happy
that this subject had been introduced to the attention 'of
the house, and thought that they must all agree that a
more vivid or correct account of the existing evils of the
courts alluded to could not have been put before them than
that given by the honourable gentleman. In the whole of
the representation made, he recognised nothing but con-
fessed, and well-known truth, truth which had been ascer-
tained for a long period of time, and about which they
could no longer entertain one doubt. But when all that
was recognised and established, came the question how is a
remedy to be applied, so that it may be effectual, so that it
may extend not only to the anomalies and evils of this
jurisdiction, but also to the anomalies and evils that exist
here by reason of the establishment in this country of so
many anomalous and distinct jurisdictions. Would it be
believed that in this country we had endured for ages this
ridiculous anomaly ; that we had allowed one court to pro-
ceed by principles of procedure confessedly opposed to the
principles of the highest degree of justice, and that at the
same time we had set another court to arrest it in its in-

justice ? The evil was not confined to the ecclesiastical
courts ; and before an effectual remedy was passed there
must be a consolidation, so that justice should no longer
differ, but should arise from one common fount, and pro-
ceed from a uniform and simple set of rules. He could
assure the house that the necessity of meeting these evils
effectually, and the wish to devise for them a complete
and general remedy, were felt and acknowledged, and
would be acted on by the existing Government. But it was
undoubtedly necessiry that in proceeding to the accom-
plishment of these measures they should proceed, nit in a
piecemeal, but in an entire manner—(hear)—and, there-
fore, though he was exceedingly reluctant to interpose any
delay, and extremely unwilling to suggest a course which
might seem to savour even of a desire to put off any
investigation on the subject, yet he was obliged to remind
the house that there were at present, three inquiries pend-
ing on three most important subjects as regarded the
Court of Chancery. A committee was now considering the
question of consolidating the jurisdictions of common law
and equity, and there was a committee on the testamentary
jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts, not for the purpose
of inquiring into evils which were generally acknowledged,
but for the purpose of- devising a manner in which
that jurisdiction could be referred to some other
tribunal. Re was perfectly well aware of the necessity of
some measure being brought before the house ; but at
the same time he was deeply impressed with an
apprehension lest the progress of this reform should be re-
tarded by its reference to a committee of this house.
There was a _committee already prosecuting enquiries e_n.
each side of the subjects proposed, and to appoint another
would cause delay instead of advantage. He trusted,
therefore, that the house would be contented and con-
vinced with the assurance made by the Lord Chancellor at
the commencement of the session, that his lordship, after
waiting a certain time to obtain the reports of the commis-
..

sioners, stating the remedies they should suggest, would,
if they were not effectual, bring forward a Measure for
the remedy—the complete cure of the evils alluded to. Ho
(the Solicitor-General) would beg the mover of this resolu-
tion to let it stand over for a short period of time, because
he was sure further inquiries into these wrongs was hot
called for, and because the further inquiry into their reme-
dies was not concluded. Then, he was sure that the Go-
vernment would, and that if they did not, the hon. gentle-
man best could, bring in a complete and satisfactory mea-
sure, in order that the question might be at once disposed
of, and the very best remedy devised. There had also
been a committee appointed by the House of Lords some
time ago, divorce,
regarding the law of when this also had
reported the hon. gentleman might discuss without fur-
ther delay, and with the best chance of obtaining what he
desired, a better one than he could gain by the mere ap-
pointment of a committee, which would add nothing to
the conviction that the house already entertained.
Sir B. HALL suggested to Mi . Collier to rest content
with the assurance given him by the Solicitor-General, and
not to press his motion to a division. He had reason to
know that the subject was under the consideration of the
Government, and he was content to leave it in their hands.
Mr. MAGUIRE trusted the investigation would include
Ireland, as, however odious these courts might be in Eng-
land, they were still more odious in Ireland, where they
where administered exclusively by persons of a different
religion from that of the great body of the people. He
denounced the whole system as one of extortion and rob-
bery.
Dr. PHILLIMORE suggested that it would be advis-
able to consider whether reforms might not be introduced
into these courts, which would render them efficient and
useful institutions, before they transferred their duties and
jurisdiction to other tribunals, which might not be found
eventually to accomplish all that was anticipated.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL trusted that Mr. Collier

would adopt the suggestion that had been thrown out, and
withdraw his motio4. All were agreed that the nuisance
and abuses of the ecclesiastical courts were intolerable and
ought to be got rid of ; but it was necessary to proceed
with discretion, and all the Government asked was to give
them a little time, and he hoped an efficient measure of
reform would be submitted to the house.

Lord PALMERSTON, in answer to a question from
Mr. Fitzgerald, said the Government would most certainly
include Ireland in any measure of reform that might be
introduced.

After some observations from Mr. WHITEnDE and Mr,
BOUVERIE, the motion was withdrawn.

THE BOROUGHS OF BRIDGNORTH AND
BLACKBURN.

Sir J. SHELLEY brought forward his motion, namely,
that the evidence taken before the election committees for
Bridgenorth and Blackburn be laid on the table, and that
the writs for the said boroughs be suspended until Mon-
day, the 4th of April next. In both cases the members
had been unseated on
,the ground of bribery. He thought
that seeing the Government intended to bring in a bill for
the reform of Parliament, it was the duty of the house to
sift every question of corruption that was brought under
its consideration ; and he trusted that if a case was made
out, the house would issue a commission to inquire into
the state of those boroughs where bribery had been proved
to have taken place.
Lord PALMERSTON said that generally speaking, the
house was shy of not issuing writs, unless a very strong
case indeed was made out to justify it in doing so. When
an organised system of bribery was shown to have existed,
it was open to the committee engaged to inquire into the
subject to report specially to the house. No such report
had been made in this case. Still there might bo grounds
for the house inquiring into the facts connected with the
place where bribery was reported to have taken place, and
this being so he would support the motion of his hon.
friend, to enable the house to consider the facts of the case,
and to say whether or not the writ should be suspended.
Mr. BOUVERIE, as chairman of the Bridgnorth com-
mittee, felt it right to say, that there were no special cir-
cumstances to warrant the committee in reporting specially
against the borough, and he warned the house to be cau-
tious before they entered into the proposed inquiry, as it
might lead to great inconvenience as regarded the business
of the house.

Mr. DEEDES, as chairman of the Blackburn committee,
begged also to say that there were no special circumstances
with regard to that borough to justify the committee in
reporting against it; and he concurred with his honourable
and learned friend, that it would be inadvisable to enter
upon the proposed inquiry under such circumstances.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, nothing could be more unfortu-
nate than to suppose that the house should proceed to revise
the decision which a committee might have come to. That
decision was final, both as regarded its substance, and the
manner in which it had been arrived at. But it did not
become the house to consider the circumstances under
which the constituent body had , acted under the circum-
stances stated, with respect to the late general election. The
petitions presented to the house in general alleged that bri-
bery had taken place in the several places from which they
cane. This being so, ho thought when bribery was reported
to have taken place, it was the duty of the house to inves-
tigate the facts, to say how far the constitutional body
was affected by these changes. He thought, however,
under the circumstances of the borough in question, it
would bo as well if the time for which it was proposed to
suspend the writs were shortened, as he thought the 4th
of April was too long a period for the suspension of the
writ to continue. (Hear.)
Sir J. TROLLOPE reminded the house that there were
kill 65 election petitions to be considered, and if the house
proposed to proceed in the way suggested by the hon.
mover of this motion, the house might be led into great
inconvenience, as regarded the amount of business before

Sir BENJAMIN HALL said that when he read the
report of the committee, over which the hon. member for
East Kent presided, he certainly felt not a little surprise
that a more special report had not been made, and that a

more searching inquiry hail not taken place into all the
circumstances of the case. The report stated that the
member petitioned against had been guilty of bribery by
his agents, and it specified several cases where with sums
of 51., 101., and orders for refreshment, bribery had been
practised. The committee further found, that treating
had been practised to a considerable extent. (Hear, hear.)
Now, he very well recollected the time when if such a re-
port were made to the House of Commons, a motion would
be immediately made in reference to the borough where the
bribery and treating took place. In these days of purity of
election—(laughter)—he thought it most desirable that there
should be full inquiry into all the circumstances connected
with the last election for the borough of Blackburn, and
whether the borough should not bo disfranchised in con-
sequence of the malpractices pursued by portions of the
electors. He supposed the evidence taken before the com-
mittee would be printed in the course of a few days, and
he suggested that his hon. friend Sir John Shelley should
move-that the writs be issued to-morrow fortnight, the
16th inst.

Mr. COBDEN said the statement made by the hon.
member for Lincoln was a dismal one. That hun. gentle-
man had warned the house of the possible danger of not
having a sufficient number of representatives to carry on
the business of the country, and he told them that if they
delayed the speedy issue of writs in those cases where
elections had been declared null and void, they might run
the risk of losing one-sixth or one-eighth of the entire
number of members, if not more. It appeared to him
(Mr. Cobden) that in such a state of things their only busi-
ness was to show the country they were prepared to act
vigorously, to follow up the scent laid by the committee,
and to track the full amount of corruption that had taken
hold of the great bulk of the constituencies. The character
of the reports presented to the house by the committees who
had already concluded their labours, showed that attempts
had been made by those who prosecuted the petitions to keep
back as much information as possible, and to adduce that
postion only which would fulfil their object of unseating
the sitting members. If they closed their eyes on this state
of things, and overlooked the condition of those boroughs
where corruption took place, because they had not the
whole of the facts before them, at the next election the re-
turn of such members would be disputed, as those who
trafficked in and made a periodical profit might consider
convenient. The hon. member received a letter from one
of his constituents, calling on him to urge a Parliamentary
inquiry into the circumstances of the last election for
Bridgnorth, which he said would throw Sudbury and St.
Alban's completely into the shade. The country expected,
as tho first and most important business to be performed by
Parliament, that they should show themselves honest in
dealing with cases of borough corruption. He hoped his
noble friend would persevere with his motion, for he did not
consider one month too long a period to give the boroughs
for the purpose, as it were, of purifying themselves.
Lord NAAS said it would be far better that they should
come to a general decision, that in all cases where bribery
was proved, and the member unseated, no writ should be
issued until the house had had full time to consider the
evidence on which the committee had arrived at their deci-
sion. As, however, at that hour of night, they could not
discuss the matter properly, he would support the motion
for adjournment.
Mr. COBDEN—I would suggest to my honourable friend
the member for Westminster to accede to the motion for
adjournment.

Sir J. V. SHELLEY—I have no objections. All I wish
is that a full inquiry take place into the matter. (Hear.)
The debate was accordingly adjourned to Thursday next.

JEWISH DISABILITIES BILL.

This bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a
second time on the 11th March.

The house then adjourned at twenty minutes past one
o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-MARCH 1.

(Front the Votes and Proceedings of the House of
Commons.)

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