The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-23 00:00:00

RECORDS IN THE TOWER,

Lord D. STUART gave notice that on Monday next
he would move for a return of the number of tons of
saltpetre kept under a room in which the Parliamentary
records were deposited i❑ the Tower of London.
METROPOLITAN BUILDINGS ACT.
Lord D. STUART gave notice that on the same day
he would ask the First Commissioner of Works and
Building 3 whether it was his intention to bring in a bill
for the amendment of the Metropolitan Buildings Act ?
LICENCES FOR TRADE IN IRELAND.
On the motion of Sir D. NORREYS, a return was
agreed to of the comparative amount now charged for
every licence for a trade or profession in Ireland.
DUTY ON CURRANTS.
In reply to Mr. EWART,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEIi said it
was not his intention to reduce the duty on currants
to the same proportion as that on raisins, the former
being more valuable. Though he proposed to reduce the
duty on raisins to 125., that would still be a higher ad
valorem duty than the 15s. now levied on currants.
POST-OFFICE.
In answer to Sir D. L. EVANS,
Mr. WILSON said he was not aware that a petition
had been sent to the Postmaster-General a month ago,
soliciting him to fix the last delivery of letters at nine,
instead of ten o'clock; but he would make inquiries, and
ascertain whether, if such a petition had been received,
any steps had been taken with reference to it.
BARNSTAPLE ELECTION.

Mr. W. 0. STANLEY said a petition bad been pre-
sented to-night on the subject of the Barnstaple election
committee, but he would suggest that no steps should
be taken in it until after the motion for a commission
had been disposed of.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said be had no intention to found
any motion upon it.
DOCKYARD PROMOTIONS.

On the motion of an HON. MEMBER the minute of
council relative to dockyard promotions was ordered to
be laid on the table of the house.

BOARD OF HEALTH

On the motion that the house at its rising do adjourn
until Monday next,
Col. HARCOURT rose to complain that a return he
had moved for as far back as the 12th of March last had
not yet been laid on the table. The return related to
the number of persons employed as surveyors or engi-
neers under the Board of Health, specifying where so
employed. Something- in the shape of a return had been
laid on the table of the house, but it was grossly imper-
fect.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the return had been
laid upon the table, though it was not printed ; and he
was informed by the Board of Health that it was per-
fectly correct. The omissions which the hon. member
complained of were attributable, not to the neglect of
the Board of Health, but to the manlier in which the
motion for the return was worded.
SOUTH SEA AND OTHER ANNUITIES COMMU-
TATION BILL.
_ -

On the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair for
the house to go into committee on this bill,
Sir F. KELLY said it had been his intention to have
moved an instruction to the committee; or to have sub-
mitted some other form of amendment under which it,
would have been competent for him to call the attention of
the house to the very important principles involved in
this measure, and especially to the great and important
objection that it provided for a large increase to the capi-

tai amount of the national debt—(hear, hear)—and also
guaranteed payment for a period of forty years of the un-
reasonable and extravagant sum of 2/. 15s. per annum, as
the income or dividend on the stock proposed to be
affected. (Hear, hear.) But having understood that some
technical or formal objection might arise to that course,
and feeling also that he could, consistently with due
regard to the forms of the, house, call attention to the
whole subject in committee, it was not his intention to
oPPose the motion for the . speaker leaving the chair.

But when the second clause came under the considera-
tion of the committee he should enter upon the entire
subject embraced by the bill, and state his objections to
it. (Hear, hear.)
The house then went into committee on the bill ; Mr.
Bouverie in the chair.
The first clause was agreed to ' • and on the second, which
provides that the proprietors of the Three per Cents. may
for 1001. of their stock receive 821. 10s.' New 3/. 10s.,
1101. 2/. 10s. per cent., or 1001. Exchequer Bond, carrying
interes at 2/. 15s. per cent. not later then the Ist of Sep-
tember, 1864, and after at 2/. 10s. per cent.
Sir F. KELLY solicited the attention of the committee
whilst he offered some observations, not merely upon the
principle of the bill, but upon its provisions. The princi-
ple of the measure was unexampled in extent and impor-
tance. It affected a sum amounting to not less than
100,000,0001. sterling, and ultimately it might apply to
500,000,0001., if not to the entire amount of the capital of
the national debt. If after the great and brilliant effort
of oratory and reasoning with which the house was at once
delighted and instructed last Monday, when ho, at least,
could say he was left under the wand of the enchanter, he
(Sir F. Kelly) now ventured to advance into the wide field
of finance which had been opened by the right honourable
gentleman, and upon the threshold expressed his entire
dissent from the main pridciple of the scheme of this bill,
he assured the committee it was not without much diffi-
dence and some apprehension. But he felt it his duty to
call attention to the subject, for the scheme was one of
a very peculiar character full of intricacies and difficulties.
To the clear and enlightened mind of the right honourable
gentleman, to an intellect which, like his, rejoiced in com-
plicated subtleties, such a task as ho had undertaken might
be easy and pleasant ; but it must be his (Sir F. Kelly's)
duty, with no other aid than a common and ordinary
understanding, to endeavour to attract attention to the
exact character of the details of this financial scheme-a
scheme which he was bound to say appeared to him replete
with perplexities, and abounding from beginning to end
with contingencies and uncertainties. (Hear, hear.) The
bill provided, in the first place, for the extinction and re-
demption of certain- South Sea and other minor stocks or
annuities of the value or amount of about 10,000,000/. ster-
ling. To this he could have no objection. It was no doubt
expedient that these minor stocks should be merged in the
larger stock composing the national debt. That object,
however, might be attained with the greatest facility, look-
ing at the present state of the money market, either by
giving" the requisite notice and at once paying off the
holders, raising 10,000,0001. for the purpose, or in any way
that might be deemed expedient. But the right hon. gentle-
man evidently conceived that the time had arrived when
certain great and important objects, which might have oc-
curred to the minds of other Ministers when in office, but
which had never been submitted to Parliament in any
distinct or tangible form, might be accomplished. These
objects were three in number-first, to effect a large and
substantial reduction in the capital amount of the debt;
secondly, the creation of a permanent 26 per cent, stock ;
and thirdly, the creation and issue, for the benefit of the
mercantile community, and the relief of the public in
general, of Treasury, or Exchequer bonds, transferable
from hand to hand. If it were clear from the provisions
of the bill that any one of these three great objects could
be successfully accomplished, or even a preparation made,
or a foundation laid, or the first step taken, consistently
with Deceed faith to the national creditor, and the duty
which every minister owed to the State, of securing a fair
and not disadvantageous bargain for the country-if they
or any one of them could be accomplished or even com-
menced without violating-the great constitutional princi-
ple that the amount of the national debt ought-not to be
increased, unless necessity called for it-the bill would
have received his sincere and cordial support. But after
bestowing careful and minute attention upon the scheme,
its intricacies, complications, and uncertainties, he had
arrived at a strong and conscientous conviction, which he
hoped to be successful in impressing upon the committee,
that, as a whole, it was inconsistent, impracticable, mis-
chievous, and unjust-unjust, he meant, because it was
unnecessary. (Hear, hear.) To make a large. and sub-
stantial addition to the capital of the national debt, and
to make it under circumstances which led to a reasonable
apprehension that the addition would bye-and-bye be
multiplied twenty and even fifty-fold, was surely-object-
ionable; and therefore he felt called upon to oppose the
principle of the bill, unless the right honourable gentleman
consented so far to modify it as to strike out what he
should hereafter call alternative No. 2 from the second
clause, in order to avoid any increase to the amount of the
national debt, and also for the payment of 21. 15s. per
cent. upon the capital affected for a period of forty years.
(Hear, hear.) He would now proceed to state, not in
legal anguage, but in language intelligible to all, what the
scheme was, and the three-alternatives or bargains which
it proposed to the holders of the 10,000,0001. South Sea
and other stock. As originally proposed, the scheme
might have embraced 500,05D,000/. but as now proposed it
would be limited under the bill to 30,000,0001. He would
suppose the owner of 1001. South Sea Stock to come under
the operation of the bill, and to be about to consider in
what position he would be placed towards the Govern-
ment. He might receive 100/. ; that was, he might be
paid off at par if he thought proper. Considering that all
these were three per cent, stocks, and that all three per
cent. stocks of the company were substantially at par, this
was a very obvious mode of settling with the holder. But
the right hon. gentleman proposed to submit to the option,
not only of the holders of the 10,000,000/. of minor Stocks,
but of the holders of the 30,000,0001. of Three per Cent.
Consols, and it might be to the holders of the whole
500,000,0001. Consols, one or the other of these alterna-
tives. But before proceeding further he must observe that
the right honourable gentleman had stated-and stated
necessarily, otherwise his scheme would at once be suicidal
-that his three propositions were alternatives or equiva-
lents. This, indeed, was the essence of the proposal. So
that any ono holding South Sea Stock or Three per Cents.,
would find himself in this position, that ho might accept
either No. 1, No. 2, or No. 3 of the alternatives, accord-
ing as it might be his interest. Now, a great objection,
he felt was, that whereas these which were represented as
equivalents were not equivalents, or anything approaching
to equivalent ; for it would be found on practical experi-
ment, if the bill were passed, when it was too late to apply
a remedy, that the difference between the one and the
other, especially between No. 2 and No. 3, was so great
that the people would wonder how the House of Commons
could possibly have entertained the scheme. (Hear, hear.)
Another objection lie felt was, that the Government,
having the power of accomplishing the three great objects
to which he had adverted, instead of proceeding to invite
information as to what ought to be the real terms of the
bargain, and taking the steps which any Ministry attempt-
ing sech an operation ought to have taken, had acted ex-
clusively upon their own judgment. Other Ministries
had issued tenders to ascertain how the country would
take that which they upon the part of the State offered to
grant. But instead of applying such a test to the ques-
tion of what ought to be the terms of this great bargain,
the right honourable gentleman-whose ability and genius
he was the last to question or undervalue-had as-
sumed to himself the faculty of all knowledge. The right
honourable gentleman, in framing this bargain, had
left himself no option and no opportunity of making
better terms ' • but he had assumed, as if by intuition, that
he possessed the required information, and he had drawn
his three propositions upon data or principles of his own,
in-as he (Sir F. Kelly) presumed to think-entire igno-
rance as to what would be the extent, if he had invited
tenders, to which the moneyed interest would have accepted
the terms. Every holder of 1001. South Sea Stock or other
stock had then the means of converting it into 1001. ster-
ling ' • and the question was which of the three proposals he
would accept. The first was this-that for his 1001. he
should accept a 36 per cent. stock, of which the capital
should be 82/. 108. ; that was to say, he might receive
821. 10s. capital stock for his 1001. sterling at a dividend of
2/. 17s. 9d., guaranteed for a period of forty years. What
this alternative might be in connection with the others the
time had not yet arrived for him to consider. -What it
was, standing by itself, if proposed by itself, would be a
fair subject for consideration. It was ono which, even if
the bill had been confined to it, would leave the most ex-
perienced and sagacious among them some difficulty in de-
termining. It might well be considered a most important
question whether 30,000,0001. of stock should he created
by payments of 1001., guaranteed 2/. 17s. 9d. for forty
years. But it was neither for him nor for the committee
to say whether it was probable any one of these proposals
would be accepted. If they should not, if they were so
disadvantageous to the public creditor that no one could
be found to accept the best of them, then the bill would
fall to the ground a dead letter, the 10,000,0001, of stock
must be paid off, and some other means be found for rais-
ing it, and no great harm would he done. But he was not
dealing with that case. It must be assumed, in order to
deal with the effect of the bill, that the right hon. gentle-
man was right in holding that at least some one of the
three alternatives would be accepted by the public creditor.
Upon that assumption, looking at the present price of
stocks, with the Three per Cents. at par, the scheme was
just with regard to the Three per Cents., and no 'more.
Looking, however, at the state of the money market, the
condition of the country as regarded the precious metals,
the state of Europe and the world-all these being practi-
cal considerations and elements in the calculations bearing
upon the bill, he did not pretend to say whether any one
of the three alternatives, when thrown open to the market,
would be accepted. Perhaps one and perhaps another
might be accepted, if each stood alone ; but he 'entertained
a profound belief that no two would, to any substantial
amount, be accepted. The alternative No. 2 was to re-
ceive for the same sum of 1001. sterling 2/. 15s-. per annum
guaranteed for forty years upon a capital of 1101., as a con-
sideration of the 1001. The third was to receive 2/. 15s.
per annum for a period which was left in uncertainty-
which was to depend upon the pleasure of the Government,
ranging from one to ten years, and for the remaining years
to have a guaranteed dividend of 21. 105. per annum only,
and that. upon a capital of 1001. He would for the present
pass over No. 1, which might or might not present to the
fundholder a bargain he might deem satisfactory ; but he
could not do so without saying, whatever might be the re-
sult of the bill, that the country was
,deeply indebted to
tl.o right hon. gentleman for having, for the first time,
submitted to Parliament a scheme for effecting a large and
substantial reduction of the national- debt. Although he
would not pretend to guess, and it would be rash in any
man to say whether this proposal presented an acceptable
bargain or not to the stockholder, ho could not pass from
it without observing that it would. undoubtedly effect a
national saving of which it was almost impossible to speak
in terms of exaggeration, for should this first alternative
be accepted by not only the holders of the ten millions of
South Sea and other stock, but by the holders of the 500
millions of Three per Cent. Stock, a saving to the country
of nearly ninety millions sterling in the capital amount of
the national debt would be effected without the increase,
on the contrary, with a diminution of the annual expendi-
ture of the country. If the holders of the whole 510 mil-
lions of stock would be content, and at once come forward
and accept this first alternative, which he-believed to be a
fair and just and reasonable bargain, he conceived no mea-
sure which any finance minister in any country ever effected
would approach in magnitude and, importance, and in the
would then have a reduction in
great and extensive benefit to the country, which would
I from such an operation. Anthedwhy?
national Because
expenditure they
of
the capital ofPtheannur, and an immediate reduction in
thou-
sand per
trut seven or eight, or nine hundred thou-
upward.4 of 90,000 national debt, as he had already said, of
that the guarantee' of
27terling. (Hear.) It might be true
It might happen that in I.m.
9d.
was for too long a period.
fivei or ten years a reduction of a
or a 6 per cent. on the i
capital might make a
difference of millions on tteeoserteigii:steal scuailL. But, however
that might be, he rejoicedi.t,ll,
that this bargain was likely
of the right hon. gentlen ink, on the high authority
that to No. 2 and No. 3, upon which ie
to be accepted to a large amount.
ewlrilthliiiPsaBdsutfylotnao
make some observations. No. 2, as heb. had stated, began
by adding 10 per cent. to the amount of capital of so much
of the national debt as was brought within
a sum which, applied to 10 millions of SouZ4h()reraaitlll7,
and 30 milhons of. Three per Cents., to which the bill Was
( lad ft': - ) • .7 •_ ;

now limited, would give at once an addition to the capital
of the national debt of no less than four millions sterling.
If he stood alone upon that objection, he said it was unans-
werable and insuperable. (Hear, hear.) A war, or any
other great national exigency, might compel the country
to submit to the increase of the national debt, and justify
them in agreeing to that increase, but he ventured to deny
that the smallest increase ought to be made unless in a case
of imperative necessity, in which the honour of the coun-
try was concerned ; and he should show, from the state-
ments and admissions of the right hon. gentleman himself,
that this-not to use the word wanton-was a perfectly
useless and unnecessary sacrifice of three or four millions,
or whatever sum would ultimately be added to the capital
of the debt. (Hear, hear.) The argument put forward
with all the eloquence of the right hon. gentleman and of
the Secretary to the Treasury, was, that this sacrifice of
three, or four, or 50 millions, if applied to the whole debt,
was well made to secure the inestimable advantage of a
two-and-a-half per cent. stock. Unless the right hon. gen-
tleman himself was greatly in error, he might obtain that
advantage without the sacrifice, without the guarantee of
21. 15s. per cent„ on cheaper andi betterterms, and left the
debt at its present amount. It was also said that thcliaddi-
tion of 10 per cent. to the national debt was really not an
evil ; and on a former evening he was severely taken to
task for having treated, or rather having been thought to
have treated, the nominal amount of the national debt as
so much money in the possession of the stockholder. He
would not for a moment assert that the possessor of 1101.
stock was the possessor of 1101. sterling. They all knew
that 1101. stock was worth just as much and no more as it
would produce by sale in the market, and undoubtedly the
holder of that stock was not possessed of 1101. It was
argued that it was immaterial to add 10 per cent. to ihe
capital, because it was a mere nominal sum, and the
debtor could not call on the State to pay it off. Of course
the same argument would go to make it immaterial whether
the debt was 5001. or 8001., or a thousand millions. But
he said in the present times, with the present prospects of
the country as to the value of money, and as to the rate of
interest, to add to any stock in existence or to be created
10 per cent., while the interest was to be 23 per cent., was
to do great injustice to the State and to the people which
members of that house represented. Who could say how
soon the time might not arrive when it would be to the
interest of the State to pay off even 2 per cent. stock ?
This bill dealt with a period of forty years. He must re-
mind the house that forty years ago the Throe per Cent.
Stock was at 60. Since 1813 the price of Three per cent.
Stock had increased from 60 to 100, and the rate of interest
had been diminished from 5 to 3 per cent. In the forty
years now completed the interest of money in the funds
hid fallen 2 per cent. Looking then to the increasing com-
merce and prosperity of the country, to the vast amount
of capital at their disposal, at the great influx of capital
from foreign states, where the same confidence as to poli-
tical affairs did not exist, was it extravagant or reasonable
to suppose, trusted as this country was to an indefinite
amount by the whole civilised world, that in the next forty
years the interest on the money in the funds would fall
from 3to 2 per cent. (Hear, hear) ? Whenever that fall
took place, and the time came to pay off the debt,
the honourable member would find that it was not
altogether immaterial whether the debt was 100 or 110
millions, since on every hundred pounds they would have
to pay 101. more than if this operation had never been
sanctioned by Parliament. But it was not in the in-
crease of the national debt, it was not on the improvidence
of the bargain by which the right hon. gentleman bound
the Countrylfor the long period of 40 years, but by the com-
parison which he should institute between No. 2 and No.
3 that he rested his great objection to the provisions of this
bill. It was said these were equivalents. Let them take
the case, and suppose a gentleman being a holder of Three
per Cent. Stock. to convert 1001. into No. 2, and another
1001. into No. 3, what did he get by No. 3 ? He paid 100/.
or 100/. Three per Cent, Stock, which was now the same
thing ; he received a guarantee, for from one to ten years,
of 21. 15s. per year.- And here, in passinm, he would ,
ob-
serve, it seemed a sort of uncertain and shifting guarantee,
and that they were invited to sanction a bargain being en-
tered into on the part of the State without knowing what
the terms were, leaving it to the option of the Government
to give a guarantee for one year or for ten years. He beg-
ged to ask if the right hon. gentleman possessed the evi-
dence and the basis for the calculation ; and if he did not
possess them, he was at a loss toknow how the calculations
could be made at all-how it was ho was unable to tell the
committee whether the guarantee was to be for one, for
five, or for ten years ? lie (Sir F. Kelly), and better cal-
culators than himself, might be inclined to think the com-
mutation exceedingly beneficial if the guarantee was for
one or two years, but very disadvantageous indeed if it ex-
tended to so large a period as ten years. (Hear, hear.)
Turning again to the comparision. What would the gen-
tleman receive upon his 1001. in No. 3, even with the Ut-
most extent of guarantee which the Government was au-
thorised to give ? He would receive for his 100/., 21. 15s. a
year for ten years, and 2/. 10s. a year, and no more, for the
remaining thirty years ; and now and until he was paid
off, he was going to say for ever, his capital would be 1001.,
and 1001, only. But what would he receive for his 1001. in
Nn. 2 ? He would bring forward 100/. only, as in the other
case, but he would receive from the Government a guaran-
tee of 2/. 15s. per cent. or capital of 1101. Substantially
speaking, he would receive only 2/. 10s. for forty years on
No. 3 as contrasted with 21. 15s. for forty years on No. 2.
In one he would have' a capital of 100/., in the other he
would have a capital of 1101. All he could say was, that
if these propositions were identical, if these two bargains
were precisely equivalent and the same, he should hence-
forth have no faith in arithmetic, or in the organs of his
Own understanding. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the right
hon. gentleman would meet these objections with that fair-
ness, openness, and candour, which belonged to his charac-
ter, and explicitly inform the house upon what principle he
could call these two contracts equivalent, one giving 1001.
capital and 21. 10s. interest for forty years, and the other
giving 1101. capital and 2/. 15s. interest forty years.
(Hear, hear.) They were told that these transferable
bonds would be so valuable to the mercantile community
that they would make up to the holders of them the entire
difference between the advantage of one bargain and the
disadvantage of the other. Was that so ? Would thest
bonds, on which the State would pay 2/. 10s. for forty
years, and acknowledge 100/. of debt, be so much more
valuable that the public would accept them as willingly as
registered stock of 1101, and carrying 21. 15s. interest for
the same period of time'? If that was so, perhaps the right
hon. gentleman would tell the committee and the country
why he did not stop with No. 3, why ho restricted the
amount, why ho did not raise the whole debt on such
terms, instead of adding 50 millions to it, as he would by
No. 2 ? -Ile was at a loss to conceive any answer to that
question. In no instance could injustice be done to the
stockholder, because nothing was compulsory-he might
or might not accept the third alternative. He therefore
would ask the right hon. gentleman to explain to the com-
mittee how, consistent with his duty to the country whose
pecuniary interests were entrusted to him, he could pro-
pose or consent to give to any stockholder 2/. 15s. for forty
years and acknowledge 110/. debt, when on his own state-
ment he could easily obtain the same capital at 21. 10s. for
forty years and acknowledge only 1001. debt. If these two
bargains were applied to the whole body of Three per Cent.
stockholders in the kingdom by number three, the State
would acknowledge a debt of 500 millions, which whenever
there was a fall in the rate of public interest, could be paid
off with that amount of sterling money, and the interest in
the forty years would be 13,750,000/. whereas by No. 2 the
State would acknowledge a debt of 550,000,000/. and
the interest in the forty years would be 15,000,0001. So
that in the one case they would add to the debt 50,000,000/.,
whilst in the other they would not add to it at all, and
save in interest in forty years 1,250,0001. He believed,
therefore, he had not used too strong a phrase when he
said it was a perfect delusion to hold out these two pro-
posals as equivalent and identical. (Hear, hear.) To his
utter astonishment, he had almost said consternation, the
right honourable gentleman told the house the other night
that these bonds would be so much more valuable than the
registered stock as to countervail the difference of bargain.
Did the right honourable gentleman remember what lie
was saying, or the import of his words ? Did he mean the
house to assume that the preference for transferable bonds
over registered stock was worth par cent. on the interest
and 10 per cent. on the capital ? Did the hon. member
reflect on the value of .1 per, cent. per annum when applied
on the whole capital debt? Again, he would ask why, if
one stock was so much preferred, did the right honourable
gentleman withhold the bonds from the public ? The Go-
vernment had to pay a large sum annually to the Bank of
England for the management of registered stock, but with
these bonds no management would be necessary, and
therefore it could not be on the ground of expense. What
he said on a former evening he ventured to repeat, now,
that there was no real, substantial difference in the value
of transferable bonds and registered stock. It was true in
this country he was speaking without experience. Fivan-
clad ministers of this country had never yet thought fit to
issue transferable bonds of the nature of these Exchequer
bonds, and it would be a problem difficult to solve, and a
question not very easy to answer, why they had not issued
such bonds, but for one consideration. Perhaps the right
hon. gentleman would find in this scheme that his Ex-
chequer bills would disappear from the market, and appear
before him in a form not very pleasant to his eyes. He
might find the t instead of having 170,00,0001, or 18,000,000/.
of unfunded debt, at 16 per cent. interest, it would be su-
perseded by Exchequer bonds at 2i per cent. for a certain
number of years, and 23 per cent. afterwards. That might
be the reason why bonds had not been issued in this
country. But he was at a loss to imagine how the Secre
tary to the Treasury could state that these bonds would be
worth 10/. per cent. more than registered stock, and that
the two descriptions would run parallel with each other in
the market. True, they had no practical experience, but,
they could move by the light of experience derived from
other channels. In Franco and in Holland and in other
commercial countries of Europe, bonds to the amount of
millions and millions transferable exactly as these Ex-
chequer bonds, were issued by the Government, and were
in circulation in those countries or elsewhere. If the Go-
vernment wished to know whether Exchequer bonds would
be higher in the market than registered stock, the question
could be answered by reference to where Exchequer bonds
or similar securities existed. If any one wanted to invest
10,000/. in Paris, or Amsterdam, or Hamburg, the broker
would ask whether he desired certificates to bearer, or to
be registered as the stockholder, and he would find both
descriptions at the same price, convertible one into the
other. If he wanted to buy French Renter or Dutch
bonds at a distance, no doubt they would be or 3 per
cent. higher for the convenience of transfer; but no sub-
stantial difference existed, and it was a perfect fallacy to
suppose that those Exchequer bonds would be worth more
than the merest, inappreciable trifle, in comparison with
registered stock, provided they were both issued upon the
same conditions. Then how stood this question betu een
No. 2 and No. 3 ? The Government brought forward this'
scheme, and alleged to the public-that they might accept.
100/. stock in No. 3, or 110/. stock in No. 2, and that they,
were equivalent; and they told the house, and he presumed
the right honourable gentleman would tell the committee,
that they considered these two stocks precisely identical
and of the same value, and that 30 millions of No. 3 would
be as likely to be taken as 30 millions of No. 2. If that
wore so, he could only say that the stockholders of this
country were in the singular position of knowing no dif-
ference between 1001. and 1101., and between 2/. 10s. and
21. 15s. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Then what would be'
the result? The consequence would be, not as the right'
honourable gentleman facetiously observed, that limbs
would be broken in the rush for No. 3, but not until No. 2

was exhausted would No. 3 be accepted, and then only
in case tho demand for transferable bonds should be

Fargo enough to induce the fiuunxAder to submit to

what would ho a great sacrifice as compared with
the advantages obtained under No. 2. Even sup-
posing both stocks were wholly taken up, that
would not lessen the gross injustice inflicted on the
holders of No. 3. He was quite aware of the great im-
portance of the object in view—the creation of a Two-and-
a-Half per Cent. Stock—but ho also felt that it was of far,
greater importance that, unless upon some great national
necessity, the capital of the debt should not. be increased.
sot tor a
considerit
ot
ot a
oanmg
He therefore urged upon the Government to at once dis-,
card from this clause the proposal or alternative. If they
procure the stockholders to accept a large and sub-.
ohoce_ukai: underb guarantee.rbN eo
w.
ya
sle ,ehf,o3rpw.o.mouruldefihnveonityoseantoersyp
olvau_htnict;itho:e.