The Sun.
London, England, 1854-06-10 00:00:00

///,

. .
. . .
,;,,„!:.!;.,:,,..,, ... 'r . -,:-:".:.:•.• \i'l,,':'::::
y-,-„,-----------,•• / ••••• ,
t,
,-;41,.

•

[pßicE SD.

came too late, Tho objection should be taken to the ap.
peintment of the commission.
Mr. E. DENISON thought it formed part' cifth-e'— r
meet between the government of thealarand lite heft of
the church and tho expense of the commissidirehon be
defrayed by the public. One advantage% dr-this vans that
it brought the subject annually before Parliamebt'4"l •
Mr. HUME dissented from the doctiiiitifaid. down by
the Secretary of the Treasury with regnrsistosehletthwitenet
of the commission. He- was ,not hostileiita4 eirh,
but he thought it unfair that the publics selliosidsbe belled
on to pay for themanagetient of Clietilrprbparerbfivhielt
that property was benetitted.:- , -. Ls,'i (L.,1 r , , r
Mr. V. SMITH said that the expense of cemmisstons
was frequently defrayed tyl tlie7prOpt4 with'
regard to
7,2951., salaries and expenses of the office of Comptroller- which they were issued. ThckshOttlillse.hfortieWahataaa
General of the Exchequer. with regard to a commission 10104tiot4Sqtpresti,s4orothe
20,1241., salaries and expenses of the office of Commis- purpose of improving the property;-1 lffistr44-elti•atrola
sioners of Works and Public Buildings. time for the'government to reconsideethii vote. -Y
,_ ...0 was
V
On this vote, convinced that if the matter were properly .Poigilited to
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wished for some explanation the bishops they,
,wesuld see the indecornm of liivingothis
of the new offices created in this department, assistant- charge paid out of the publiorevenues. ' Pr esA e
secretary and architectural assistant, the one at a salary , Mr. MACARTNEY wished to know' hether ,thel4ote
of 4001., the other at 600/ embraced the whole expense of the ecclesiastial oona.
Mr. WILSON said the appointments had been made in mission.
consequence of the report of a commission, which recom- Mr. 3. WILSON said .tbe-eoromissioners viers' pahirout
mended these additional officers as necessary in consequence of the funds of the commission. • 1
of the groat increase of public buildings. The committee then diiided-- . , • .
Mr. HUME asked if that report had been laid before For the vote ' - 9 l 9l . .
Parliament. Against it
Mr. WILSON replied in the affirmative. On the vote of 210,9021, for the expenses of the. adminis•
In answer to Mr. PELLATT, tration of the law for gib- relief of the poor. e... kJ.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH stated that there would be no Colonel DUNNE said: he couldea."- -41. 6,iiieesaitri for
law charges beyond the amounts voted as salaries to the having two commissioners for' IrtilaiaVlßeaii, 'gar )
law officers of the board.f - •
' There was, too, an unnecessaryrittnthei-of aiaistint corn-
Lord SEYMOUR said, in answer to a remark of Mr.W. missioner;of architects,' assistant arolsitnetis' And adiditant
Williams, that he had substituted the payment of the architects. Now that the workhobsee had kil beeirtMilt.
solicitors by salaries, instead of fees, in accordance with and the arrangements made, it could not be *lute' ith to
the wish of the house that the fees should be discontinued. maintain so large a staff ; and he hoped the 144 boa.
The business, as a matter of convenience, had been divided baronet (Sir J. Young) would give them some: ho.ge of
between two legal gentlemen. . reduction under this head. There was one itemll3loiit
Mr. HUME asked if the solicitor in this department was exhibited great unfairness towards Ireland. There,
also solicitor to another department.
grants for the payment of half the auditors' . , . •
Mr. WILSON said that Mr. Gardner was solicitor to half the schoolmasters' salaries for England,- and
the Office of Works, and also to the forest department of was also a grant for the medical attendance in- this • . .
the Office of Woods. There were no such grants for Ireland; and he c . '
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said he understood the two gentle- see why there should be such a distinction between
men, Mr. Gardner and Mr. Pemberton, were in partner- countries.
Sir G. PECHELL said, hiving for a long time
ship, and very large sums were paid to them as salaries._
Mr. WILSON said this was so, but the duties of_ the complaints with and to the peer law- adramistrati ibis
offices were extremely heavy, and the fees, which
_ had been
twhiesheaddmtoinsarathtaiatnheof
abolished, were very lucrative. hadthevirigewehtd whioirth. gregeaattremtiadn.(4l:.
Mr. HUME wished to have a statement of the number
of leases prepared and sales effected. There also had been Baines),
s)ti tanhodsehwehlrehwadthabetena maionisiltaeoppfeeosleidnrtelwaniledthe new
Ye however, that some parts of the
purchases made • he wished to know on whose authortye poor law. He must sa
This system ought to be checked ; and the crown lands poor law establishment appeared to him too I .- There
should be properly defined. It had appeared before Lord were no less than four secretaries of tho board. There was
Duncan's committee that the expenditure in this way was one secretary at 1,5001. a year, another at 1,0001. another
enormous. He hoped to see it altogether put an end to. at 1,2001. and another at 800/. These secretaries were all
There was one forest which only produced a few thousand for England ; and when a Lord of the Treasury was paid
pounds, which, under proper management, might be made only 1,0001. a year, a Lord of the Admiralty Lew/ ,
to yield at least 400,0001. and that excellent officer, Sir B. Walker, the Sur-
Lord. SEYMOUR said a book was laid before the house veyor of the Navy, only the same - amount, , he
every year, from the land revenue department, showing all could not understand why such large salaries should
the sales and purchases of the year. He agreed as to the be paid to the poor-law secretaries. (Hear, heat.)' The
necessity of consolidating the crown property, by disposing right lion. baronet (Sir J. Trollope), when he was at the
of the small detached portions, which were scattered over head of the poor-laW department, proposed to do away
forty counties; but it would not do to force these pio- with some of the superfluities of the board; and he hoped
perties into the market. The London property alone he would now support him in the proposal to deduct 5001.
yielded 100,0001. a-year, and he was certain that it was from this estimate. The hon. member concluded by
managed at one-half the cost of any other property of equal moving that the vote should be reduced from 210,9021.
value. to 210,402.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said there was but one commis- Mr. BAINES said as the hon. member complained of
sioner of his department, and hitherto there had been but the expense of the secretaries of the Poor Law Board, he
one secretary ; now an assistant-secretary was appointed, must recal to his recollection that before the Poor -Law
at 6001. a-year. He could not suppose that there had been Board was changed there were three commissioners, each
any necessity for this. What were the additional duties ? pf whom received a salary of 2,0001. a year. In the place
There was also an increase of fees to counsel, and other of those commissioners there had been -set up a president
matters, amounting to 4001. and two secretaries, at an expense of 4,5001. a year ; so
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said a committee of the Tree- that, in fact, there was araying of 1,5001. a year. In the
sury had been appointed to inquire into the constitution course of last year there' was a very careful inquiry into
of the board. They thought it impossible that the duties the whole establishment of the poor law board. The re-
should be properly discharged without an assistant secre- sult of that inquiry had been laid before Parliament, and
tary ; and upon their recommendation, one had been ap- would be found at page 193 of the report, with regard to
pointed. The increase in the other items referred to was the public offices. The present estimate was formed in
owing to the uncertainty which prevailed beforehand as to accordance with the recommendations of the committee by
the amount that would be required. whom the inquiry was conducted. The committee scru-
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked if the report of that corn- tinised the salaries of the secretaries and of the whole
mission of inquiry was on the table of the house. The in- establishment ; and their deliberate recommendation was
crease in these items would be more intelligible if they saw implicitly followed. With regard to the clerks, it was
the reasons assigned by the commissioners. Why had an found that they were paid much less than their merits re-
architectural assistant been appointed, as well as an as- quired that they should be, and less in proportion then the
sistant eecretary. clerks of other public departments. There was this peen-
Sir W. MOLE iWORTH said this apointment had also liarity in their case, that though many of them displayed
been made on the recommendation of Sir C. Trevelyan great zeal and ability in the public service, and had held
land the other commissioners.their offices for twenty or thirty years, they had no claim
1 Mr. W. WILLIAMS'
said the right hon. baronet ought o superannuation. There had been au increase in their
to have come and asked the house for assistance, if he salaries, but it was not more than was warranted by the
needed it, on his own responsibility, circumstances. There was an increase also under the head
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the appointment of the of travelling and incidental expenses of inspectors; but
commission had taken place on application to the Treasury, that, too, was founded on the recommendation of the coin-
as lie felt that the department was not sufficiently strong. mitten. Ho thought that if his hon. friend had road the
Their recommendations had been embodied in a report, report to which lie had referred, ho would not persevere
and laid before the house ; and the consequence was these in his motion.
increased estimates. Sir J. TROLLOPE said when be held the office now so
After a few words from Mr. A. Pellatt, Mr. Williams, well filled by his right hon. friend, he thought it his duty
and Sir John Trollops, ' to call the attention of the Government to the condition of
Mr. HUME asked who were the gentlemen who had re- the clerks. An inquiry was, in consequence, instituted,
calved these appointments, and whether the new prin- and the result was the recommendation of the increase now
ciple had been acted on of inquiring into their qualifica- complained of. The establishment in England would cer-
tions. . tainly hear a favourable comparison with that in Ireland,
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the Assistant-Secretary, especially as in England the poor rates amounted to
Mr. Phillips, had held the office of clerk in the Board of 6,000,0001., and in Ireland they did not exceed 800,000/.
Works for many years, and he had been apointed for his He mast say there was no department in which the public
meritorious services. The etechitectural assistant was Mr. service was conducted in a more efficient and economical
Smith, who had been employed at Constantinople, and manner. •
had always been in the establishment of the Board of Mr. F. FRENCH was glad that attention had been called
Works. He had been sent out to Constantinople to su- to the waste in the Irish poor-law establishment.
perintend the repairs of the embassy there. Mr. W. WILLIAMS had great pleasure in bearing tea-
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY expressed fear that the appoint- timony to the efficient manner in which the poor-law de-
ment of these additional officers would lead to additional partment was managed by the right hon. gentleman.
expense. (Hear, hear.) When that right hon. gentleman first so-
Mr. WILSON said Mr. Smith was not a new officer at ceded to office, the poor-law had got into bad repute ; since
all ; be had been in the Board of Works for years before that time he had heard scarcely a single complaint. He
he went out to Constantinople. While he was there, his was very glad to find Irish members coming forward for
salary did not appear in this estimate, but was charged to the first time as economists. (Hear.) It was impossible to
another department. There was really, therefore, no in- examine the figures without being struck with astonish-
crease in the amount of salary at all. meat. In England the expense was 35,700/. ; in Scotland,
Mr. HUME bore testimony to the efficiency of Mr. Phil- 3,800/. ; in Ireland, 40,700/. ; and this although the amount
lips. He thought it desirable that the department should to be managed was only one-eighth of the amount in Eng-
have an architect of its own, who was totally independent land.
of other parties. He wished to know who now filled the Mr. BAINES said no office could be filled with more
place of Mr. Smith at Constantinople. ability than that held by Lord Courtonay as permanent
Mr. WILSON said the duty there had been performed secretary to the Poor Law Board.
and no other appointment had been made. Mr. Smith Mr. MACARTNEY urged upon the Government the
would not go out again to Constantinople. necessity of appointing a commission to inquire into the
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY still objected to the increase. working of the Irish Poor Law with a view to effecting a
After a few words from Sir J. V. Shelley, Mr. Vance, considerable reduction in its cost. The expense of the
and Mr. Hume, who recommended that the Board of poor-law in Ireland, comparatively speaking, far exceeded
Works should present a report annually to Parliament, the that of the poor-law in England.
vote was agreed to. Sir J. YOUNG told the committee that it was unfair
22,8161., salaries and expenses in the offices of Woods, to make a comparison between Ireland and England,
Forests, and Land Revenues. because in England the poor-law system had been long es-
On this vote. tablished, and its working was well understood, while in
Mr. VANCE called attention to the fact that a very Ireland it was a novelty requiring a staff to carry it out
small portion of the revenue of this department was ex- more numerous and expensive than the state of th coun-
pended in Ireland, though about 30,0001. of it was drawn try, or the number of unions would seem to justify at
from that country. The commissioners applied large sums first sight. Nevertheless, of late years great reduction had.
for the improvement of streets in London ; but they had been made in the poor law expenditure of Ireland, and,
recently refused a small grant for widening one of the from time to time, as it could be accomplished, still fur-
approaches to the railway station in Dublin. ther reductions would be made.
Sir J. V. SHELLEY asked if any one had been appointed Mr. WHITESIDE reminded the committee that petis
iu the place of Mr. Kennedy, late a commissioner. lions were constantly pouring in from Ireland, imploring
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that Parliament to inquire into the whole system of the poor
the office was virtually vacant ; but the mode in which it law, and contended that it was monstrously absurd to
was to be supplied was rather a serious question, and one keep up an expensive staff contrary to the wishes and
involving much consideration. opinions of the entire community of Ireland.
Sir J. PAKINGTON wished to call the attention of the Mr. KIRK insisted that Ireland was too poor to bear
right hon. gentleman to an outrage which had been corn- an expensive and cumbersome administration of its poor
'flitted on a respectable lady in Richmond-park, in broad law.
daylight. A footpad came up to her, and, presenting a Mr. HUME had never heard a stronger case for inquiry
pistol at her, obtained possession of her watch and other made out than this, and since it should be the object of the
property. Since then he had heard of another outrage, Government to deal with Ireland precisely in the same
though not of so aggravated a character, which had been manner that they dealt with England, ho called upon
committed in the same park. Great alarm was naturally them to give a pledge that an inquiry should take place.
felt in the neighbourhood in consequence of these outrages, Sir J. GRAHAM begged the committee not to forget the
and some security shonid be given to protect the public different circumstances attending the administration of the
against them by the employment of police. (Hear.) . poor law in the two countries. The poor law was forced
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said ho had heard of the rob- upon Ireland by Parliament against its will, and ough
bery iu question, but he understood it was an isolated case. it had since been found to work exceedingy well th
,it still
That being so, be did not think that there was sufficient required that especial care should be taken in working it
ground to ask for an increase of expenditure, which must out. At first the executive staff was. prxe'raenit- I h
zi
nle• ybueta'voi:, late
which place if a body of police was to be placed in the park, cause of the novelty of the system iu I
euthes madee
cirri the
which was several miles in circumference. years considerable reductions havebe
Mr. HUME said that the house voted last night a Burn ponditure, and now his right hon. friend. ry. for
of 5,252/. for the maintenance of the park for public use. Ireland,
to I
was possible t. o so. Now to
had given a pledge that still further reductions
Of this sum 2,8431. was for the ranger. He should have should be tirade when it...
thought that protection to the public ought to bo secured his mind such a pledge asi.,,trhmategreiseeentioerfenbeteehraylftoeftthheeeot:
G-
o-
by this expenditure. (Hear, hear.) verainent ought to prove
Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped that after what had been mittee than eveutheveenpointuient of a commission of in-
so justly stated by the hon. member for Montrose, some quiry. A suggestion had been made that some of the
l
explanation would be given as to the expenditure of the workhouses '
i Ireland should be closed ; but those who
money. The right hon. gentleman said that only one in- entertained thati opinion
ati‘,errsee prosperity,me ie ae remember
changettahnac
et, thoughwoiguhldt
stance had occurred. His information was different; but Ireland was w new ina
even one case of the kind was sufficient to show the neces- take place, rnetnutarnteonff
sity of due protection being afforded. He had been in render the existencen of those workhouses absoluately ne-
Richmond a good deal lately, and he saw many objection- cessary.
Sir B. HALL remarked that the increasing prosperity
able characters about.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH had no objection to ,give a re- of Ireland inust.be satisfa_ctory alike to the committee and
turn showing how the money was expended. He would the country. It appeared from the evidence given by all
have the subject considered, and ascertain what the cost of the members fro:n Ireland that pauperisni was materially
a sufficient police force would be. But if it was decided diminisaing
, there,.but, although that was so and the condition of the peasantry re--
that such a force should exist, they must be prepared to
pally improving i he agreed
vote a considerable increase in the estimates, with the right hon. baronet the First Lord of the Admi-
Mr. FRENCH said the hon. gentlemen (Mr. Wilson) ralty that it would be extremely unwise to shut up y
had not replied to the question of the hon. member for the workhouses. The woistlhkeolii.ueoluLea
have
exhibited were
ar
ie.
nra .aenltcr(iilietlieaoennk(aionusef-ptmohonefe
Irish pauperism, and if they worn closed
Dublin.out-door
it resortedut io nt e thatw e
Mm'. WILSON said that the view taken with regard rsceelineefsagoafindest
the expenditure of public money by the hon. meat
the
e_ .
years
ago
.
defrayed, tlixe Lo d NAAS thought the Irish members ought to rest
Dublin was erroneous. Though it was trdueefrathy
stabteii s. fie reduction.with
sb oaisds(iirrtaankcee that
place,h a
thoughclbeen
pause of improvements in London wa
first instance, by the office of works, it
given
he e fo r that
one for-
borne themselvessal
s t
otiotnhbeercetraaclxiwetydn 1 i e v e d i t would
by the people, who suffere4.h
workhouses.
be-
by an additional coal duty. V
property'. in Ireland, he was sorrytlelt itorseffy. that it was not some of the unoccupied we_
well paid. Their object was. sell.. the outlaying small After a few words from Capt. SCOBELL, the amendment
property, and to concentrate. it in cities. Crown property was withdrae-n.
had been sold in the Oreneyseand other remote parts with Mr. MACARTNEY complained that there were many
that view.
When they effected sales of crown property charges in Ireland such as the cost of convicted criminals
they were obliged to buy other property with the proceeds, which were borne by the counties, while in England they
because they were not at liberty to dispose of any part of were thrown upon the consolidated fund. Now that was in
direct opposition to the assurance given by the late Sir R.
the capital of such property,
Mr. WHITF-SIDE said it was the duty of the Govern- Peel when he repealed the corn lawe, and repeated after-
ment to provide proper courts for the administration of wards by the Government when they extended the poor law
justice. The people of Dublin offered to have them selves to Ireland. He certainly thought that this part of the sub-
taxed for the contemplated improvements, but their offer jest ought to be inquired into.
was refused. Mr. ADDERLEY objected that so large a sum should be
Mr. MACARTNEY complained that the Crown pro. set clown for schoolmasters and schoolmistresses in Poor-law
perty in Ireland was so extremely mismanaged that it in- Unions. The schools in unions really did little morn than
jured other property in the neighbourhood. brine up a race of paupers. The number of pauper children
Mr. HUME said that the ranger of Richmond Park was in England was at the present time 25,000. If these were
the Duchess of Gloucester, and as she, of course, employed divided into batches of 500 each, and placed at the district
a deputy, he should like to know who he was. Ample schools, ho believed that the present vote would quite covet
and adequate allowance was made for the branches of the the exp'ense, and hofelt sure that the
i result would be very
royal family, and he objected to their getting more money beneficial. Three such schoo's were n operation near Lon-
under cover of duties which they did not perform. If the don' and others in different parts of the country, and with
allowance was not ample enough, let it be increased in an the happiest results.
open way. Mr. BAINES thought the hon. gentleman would admit
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the vote for Richmond that lie hail given his co-operation in endeavour ing to form
Park had been agreed to last night, and it was irregular district schools. (Hear, hear.) He quite agreed with the
to re-open the discussion. bon. gentleman iu thinking that district schools were
Mr. HUME said he would move for a return of the highly satisfactory in their working, and ho had never lost
expenditure of the money. It was understood that the any opportunity of doing anything in his power to induce
duties of departments from the receivers general to the the guardians of Poor Law Unions, who were the parties
lowest officers were not to be performed by deputy. with whom the power really rested, to establish district
The vote was then agreed to. schools. He did not, however, agree with those who
2,791/. fur the expenses of the State Paper-office was found fault with union schools in the mass. Many of
agreed to. these schools were exerting a high beneficial influence.
On the vote of 3,4e3/, for the expenses of the eoclesias- Mr. J. BALL_ thought that. an additional rate would be
better than Parliamentary aids for schools.
tical commission,
Mr. WILLIAMS said he would divide the house on this owpiinthionretgh::nrit,ltlhtreeeltah wholelreland
expenseslie matterbegg e begged
ftuogthphtoeitnolFoonrudtleartwghlioaebtrevision.
nf.
vote, on the ground that it was unjust to make the public
England
pay for the management, of church property. Church pro-.
party had been greatly improved since it was placed under pease in connexion with the Irish poor law did not exceed
the commission, and that was a further reason- why
the that of the English poor law, but that the contrary was
expenses of management should be defrayed from
the fact. In England the exisense was 50,000/., while in
property, and not by the public at large. (Hear.) Ireland it was but 40,0001. But
wereeistsewnatisaialso essentially
ydtirffuee that thean
d
support the hon. English and Irish systems
Mr.- HADFIELD would cordially
penoudneadvsoNuvroutldo
rove
thethe Areiasrliesstycosteumrseloinr
gentleman's amendment,°the tlie e o f a few o
as ho wouldef supporte peopleall pfreorp si- !-properly so. T
tions directed against the taxing
maintenance of doctrines of which they did not approve. , the end.
Mr. WILSON said that the commission was appointed, Captain SOOBELL thought it his duty to point out to
by Parliament, and the objection to pay for its expenses ; the committee that, in giving a good education to paupers'

children, the country was doing more for them than was I strong for his hon. friend, and he was obliged to retreat,
done for the children of hardworking independent ' utterly and ignominiously defeated. (Laughter.) A most
labourers. material saving had been made
should
il inandprsiunbt*-
After a few words from Mr. J. O'CoNNELL and Colonel ing department, and they
etatin,
otthe
d nover stationerymention
this
DeneNE,
Sir J. SHELLEY thought that the number of poor- I was due to Mr. M'Cullo
i j ect in the h ouse w ithouoth
for
his
tehxaetr
ttihone a giraetahteiestrecerpeedetit.
of the terms of the printing for
law inspectors might be diminished. The working of the He thought that a return r
law was well understood, and there was really no necessity the public offices and u.fonhr thefrtiownod.hoptswesasocflesPhaarblilaemthenatt
for inspection. would surprise even his on.t
The vote was then agreed to.
• `Upon the vote of '82,4041 for the Mint, including tionery for the two hthey should distinguio
u
shs
e
s
boef wpearenliatmheentp.rinting and eta
TcohmeprloapoinrtedofofthtehsetadteeltaeyLinawgecttoirang.
e •
chinage.-
inyee t
differenceb een delivered.
oa
the e
ullh
je
ee t understood
between thatthe
• Mr. HUME wished to have an explanation as to the reportsthleir.
sum of 21,0001. and odd charged as deficiency in the vote mission.h,adtponaoot
CitA- UriFnUteadD.
of last year; and also to know whether the colonial ooin- was ovfine
Queen's printer and the printer of thewreehHicdoheuhsaerroefdCfoormamloonasg;
ago was carried on at the Mint ?
Mr. WILSON said that the deficiency in the vote a but whatever
k was
..thtehceaaurv,authtaegyewe
had arisen from
list year was caused by the unprecedented call which was tinietaafrem
the pcooiltLmninertEtnaeotnahepicaoimaemdistshiaotn.
the report on the sub-
made for silver and copper coinage. With regard to the
other question of the hon. member, he had to state that
jest of the law of partnership, which was presented to the
the coinage Sw the colonies was struck at the Mint.
Mr. HUME thought that the estimates ought to have house before the Easter recess, was not yet in th hands of
members.
Sir J. SHELLEY wished to know why the printing ex-
peenied the amount of coinage struck during last year.
He hoped such a meagre account would not be furnished in
future.
ponses of the Board of Works were 1,0701 , whilst those of
the Office of Woods were but 5001., and those of the Home-
The vote was then agreed to. ottice,, 51.
Mr. WILSON was unable, in the absence of his right
12,6911: for the salaries and expenses of persons employed
in the care and arrangement of the public records.
Mr, Irmo would like to see all the records brought hon.
rfrimenwl,AEfON complained that acts of Parliamenttostahe the details of expenditure.
together in one building. He should be glad to know
• whether the fees demanded for consulting them were now
ewhearregetod
by
ye
thhaedQferoemen,epripyriatnetepr.rint(eHrseafro,rhleeasrs.)thalnt
awaswe
more reasonable than formerly ?
Mr. WILSON said that the collection of the records into desirable that the price of acts of Parliament should be
one place was under the consideration of the Government. reduced to the lowest sum. (Hear.)
The fees had lately been reduced,ble.
and were now very rea- Mr. HUME agreed with the hon. gentleman in thinking
that acts of Parliament should be sold at the lowest rate.
sona.
Tile vote was agreed to.agreed The vote was then to.
15,1151. for the expenses of the inspectors and sub-in- On the vote of 68,6001. for the expenses of the Privy
specters of factories, mines, Sic. Council-office, which had been postponed from the previous
Mr. HUME had always objected to the appointment of evening, as it was thought desirable that the house should
these inspectors. The measure had been dictated by a be furnished with further information regarding the in-
spurious philanthropy, and had been productive of much crease of the salary of the clerk of the council from 2,0001.
mischief. He trusted that they would be speedily abolished, to 2,5001.,
• The vote was agreed to. Mr. WILSON said that in making further inquiry, he
1,705% for the salaries of certain officers in Scotland and found that the statement ho made on the previous evening
other charges formerly paid from the hereditary revenue. from recollection was substantially correct. The present
Mr. W. WILLIAMS wished to know whether the sala- clerk of the council was appointed under patent in 18W.
rice of certain persons in this vote, such as the Queen's The salary was regulated in 1808, and he succeeded to the
limner, clookmaker, historiographer, were to be perpetual, office in 1821. He was first paid by fees which amounted
Or were to cease at the death of the present holders of these to a large sum. But an order in Council was made, fixing
offices? He objected strongly to the votes for the Queen's the salary at 2,0301. a year, but raising it to 2,5001., when
Plate to be run for at Edinburgh, the Caledonian Hunt held for three years. The order in council also required
Plate, and the Royal Company of Archers' Plate, in all that the 5001. should be subject to deduction, where the
amounting to 2171. Of course her Majesty might bestow party held any other place or appointment under the Crown.
leer gifts as she chose, but he objected to the public money When Mr. Greville succeeded to the office in 1821, ho re-
being spentfor an immoral purpose, as he considered racing ceived 2,0001. a year, and, having held it for three years,
to be, and he should move that these items be struck out. he received 2,5001. from 1321 to 1829, when he received
Mr HUME also objected to these race cups, but he must another patent office in Jamaica. The salary was then re-
.also
object to a much larger sum, namely, 1,0901., the salary duced to 2,0001. ; but last year, Mr. Greville having vo-
aed expenses of the secretary to her Majesty's printer. luntarily resigned his Jamaica ffice, he put in a claim for
That functionary had been appointed to revise every edi- the increased salary of 2,5a01. The claim was considered,
tion of the Bible, Testament, Psalm-book, and Short Cate- and the conclusion come to was that as Mr. Greville's
chasm; but he had been found to be quite useless. The salary was fixed by order in council they could not object
arrangement was only meant as a temporary one, when the to his claim.
_Bible monopoly was abolished. By that measure Bibles In reply to Mr. O'BRIEN,
had been cheapened 100, and in some cases 200 per cent., Mr. WILSON said that the Jamaica office was abo-
and he trusted it would be extended to England. (Hear.) lished. No compensation was given.
Mr. WILSON did not think 1,0001. too much to pay for Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the doctrine that the house
•
an arrangement which had been found to be productive of had no power to oppose the vote because it was regulated
so much good. At the same time the Government would by order in council. He hoped the house would refuse
make enquiry into the matter. As for the race cups, they the vote on this occasion. He thought that the vote ought
amounted to an exceedingly small sum, and had long been to be resisted, which the house had power to do.
paid out of the hereditary revenues of the crown. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was quite
The committee divided on the amendment— sure the hon. gentleman would believe that the Treasury
Ayes
Noes
The amendment was therefore lost, and the original vote would be the last man to decline to act on the rigid and
was then agreed to. scrupulous rules of good faith by which the
house was
6,2831. for the salaries of the officers and attendants of always bound. It was not the case that this gentleman
the household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. had for a long time received a salary of 2,0001. a year, which
Mr. W. WILLIAMS also objected to a charge of 1,5741. was not raised to 2,5001., but Mr. Greville had been ap-
for plates in this vote, bat he would not divide upon it. pointed under an order in council
ouncilo f 1808. and though it
might be argued that it did not bind Parliament to con-
He had drawn attention on the previous night to the high
sounding titles of the officers connected with this mock tinue his office for life, yet Parliament had uniformly
royalty. The Lord Lieutenant's household was actually on chosen to be bound in cases where vested interests were
the same scale as the Queen's, although ho bore to her created, and the order in council according to the prin-
Majesty about the proportion that a rushlight bore to the ciples which the house had adopted, had given Mr.
Greville a permanent interest in the office which it
sun. (Laughter.) He should be glad if some hon. mem-
ber for Ireland would tell him—for he did not think the had conferred upon him That office was accom-
Irish Secretary could—what were the functions of the Panied by a salary, which was to be at the rate
"two gentlemen-at-large" who were charged at i 231. 18s. of 2,0031. a year for three years, and 2,5001. afterwards
Bd. (Laughter.) for life, but with an exceptional provision that if he
Sir J. YOUNG said that this was the name given to two held any other office, a portion of his salary of 2,.5001
gentlemen who attended the Lord-Lieutenant on State would be abated, but on the termination of the tenure of
occasions. that office the salary would remain at 2,5001. There was a
. ' Mr. PETO wished to ask the Government whether the positive title on Mr. Greville to that which had been con-
viceregal establishment was intended to be continued ? ferred on him by the order in council, and he (Mr. Glad-
Mr. WILSON said that two ye irs since the Government stone) was informed that he might, even by judicial prc-
of the day aid propose to abolish it ; but it was found, after cess, compel the payment of the salary by the Treasury. If
the recess, that there was an all but unanimous feeling , there was any grievance, it was on the part of Jamaica,
amongst the Irish members against such a step, and the which had to bear sinecure offices created in this country,
'design was abandoned. The present Government had no which were held by gentlemen who never saw the island,
intention to take a different course. and he believed that the house would be ready to go any
Mr. HUME said the only question was, what would be length to cure such abuses.
the best for Ireland? For his own part, he thought that if Mr. KINNAIRD said that as he had opposed the vote
Scotland had had such a pageant she never would have last night, he was bound to say that the explanations of
made the progress she had done. There were some of his Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Wilson were satisfactory, and this
countrymen said to talk of the injuries of Scotland, and of it would be only just to adhere to an honourable engage-
establishing a viceregal court at Edinburgh, but such men ment like this.
could have reflected little on what the consequences would Mr. HUME, while he did not agree that the house had
• be. It was his belief that if the plan of Mr. Pitt had been not the power to deal with the vote, said that it was only
carried out, and the Irish lord-lientenancy had been abe- consistent with good faith.
lished in 1800 Ireland would now have been the most pros- The vote was agreed to.
porous part of the United Kingdom. (Hear, hear.) 17,0791. for sheriffs' expenses, officers of the Court of
Colonel DUNNE said that, whatever might have been Exchequer, Rsc., and 8,4151. for the Insolvent Debtors'
the feeling of Irishmen during the viceroyalty of Lord Court, were agreed to after a short discussion.
Clarendon, none of them would now wish, after the ad- The next vote was 92,4351. for criminal prosecutions and
miuistration of Lord Eglinton, to see the establishment other law charges, Scotland, and was agreed to.
abolished. (Hear, hear.) : On the vote of 55,4701. for criminal prosecutions and law
Mr. PELLA.Tr objected to the items of 1821. 12s. Ba. charges in Ireland,
and 411. 10s. for the chaplain and the reading clerk in the Mr. Iti'MAHON complained that the system which
chapel at the castle. prevailed in this country with regard to the expense of
Mr. VANCE defended the items on the ground tbat the criminal prosecutions was not adopted in reference to
chapel was frequente Iby great numbers of the public. Ireland.
Dublin, at all events, was a Protestant city, as was shown Colonel DUNNE also objected to the practice of making
by the members it returned. (Laughter.) prosecutors pay their own expenses, instead of leaving
After a few words from Mr. CHEETHAU, them to be defrayed out of the consolidated fund, as was
Mr. HUME said ho was prepared to vote against the the case with regard to such expenses in England.
grant to the Lord Lieutenant altogether. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that if
Mr. MIALL did not think this a good opportunity for the argument in support of the objection were pushed to
takiug the sense of the house on the religious question. the farthest extent, it would not bo very favourable to the
Mr. PELLATT consented to withdraw his amendment. pecuniary interests of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) It would
Captain SCOBELL said he could not allow the vote to then be impossible for Parliament to confine its view to
pass without protesting against the item for horse-racing. the expense of criminal prosecutions. About 550,0001.
He had no objection to horse-racing itself, but he did not was paid out of the consolidated fund for the expense of
wish it to be paid for out of the public money. This was a the Irish constabulary force—(hear, hear)—and if the two
time when all such items as this should be weeded out of countries were placed on the same footing in that respect;
the national expenditure. There was enough to do with Ireland would be a considerable loser by the change.
our horses without encouraging racing. He therefore (Hear, hear.)
moved that the vote should be reduced by 1,5741. Colonel DUNNE said the payment of the expense of the
Mr. HENCHY supported the vote, on the ground that constabulary had been put forward as a set-off for twenty
raciug encouraged the breed of horses. different things • it could not be made to stand for every-
Colonel PEEL reminded the committee that racehorses thing. (Hear, hear.)i
paid a much higher duty then other horses. Mr. MACARTNEY said Ireland might fairly rest its
After a few words from Mr. WYSE, case on the promise of Sir It. Peel in 1846.
Sir R. PRICE said that there never was a lord haute- After some further conversation, in which Mr. T. Chem-
n6ncy more ably conducted, under more difficult circum- ben, Mr. Serjeant Slice, Lord Bernard, Mr. Whiteside,
stances, than that of Lord Clarendon- (Hear, hear.) He and Mr. 11`alahon took part, the vote was agreed to, as was
had carried the country safely through the
greatest diffi- another of 27,0001. for the expense of the Dublin police.
culties ; and he had regretted to hear the remarks of Colo- The Chairman then reported progress, and the committee
nel Dunne in reference to different noblemen. was ordered to sit again on Monday.
Colonel DUNNE said he had great respect for Lord Mr. WILSON said the Stamp Duties Bill would be taken
Clarendon's talent; but of the conduct of the Government first on Monday, and afterwards the estimates would be
of which the noble lord was the organ in Ireland he totally continued.
disapproved. They had treated as a rebellion that which The report of the resolutions passed in committee of
was nothing more than a contemptible outbreak. (Oh.) supply on the previous evening was then brought up and
Of Lord Eglinton's administration in Ireland all parties agreed to.
united in speaking in praise.
COMMON LAW PROCEDURE BILL.
Mr. CROSSLEY hoped the hon. member who had moved On the motion for the second reading ef
this
bill,
the amendment would divide on it. The breed of horses Mr. WHITESIDE said it was an
excellent
bill, and he
needed for the cavalry was far different from that of race- hoped it would be extended to Ireland.lt would enable
horses; the former required more blood and stamina. parties to try causes in the superior courts without the aid
Mr. W. WILLIAMS objected to these grants being of a jury, and he would suggest that it should also enable
all( 6 " Queen's Plates ; " they ought to be described as chosen in action to be assignable at law.
`plates paid for out of tiro national taxes, for the encou- Mr. ATHERTON and Mr. S. WORTLEY approved of the
ragement of horse-racing." principle of the bill, but trusted ample time would be afs
Colonel DUNNE asked what the Government intended forded for discussing its details.
to do with a fund now existing, arising from fines ? The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
Sir J. YOUNG said the subject was under considers- committed on Thursday next.
tion. He hoped that a better method would soon be de- BILLS OF EXCHANGE BILL.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the second read-
vised by paying the clerks of petty sessions.
The veto was then agreed to. in of the bill, and explained that its object was to estab-
The next vote, 6,7041., for the expenses connected with lisp the Scotch system in England, whereby a bill of ex-
the office of Paymaster of the Civil Service in Ireland, was change was treated as a judgment at law, but at the same
agreed to after a few words from Mr. FRENCH. time the party accepting the bill would have power, with-
The next vote was 24,2181. for the Board of Public in six days after noting, to go before one of the courts to
Works, Ireland. contest the validity of the bill and insist upon having it
Colonel DUNNE complained that great injury had been tried by an issue at law.
done to landed proprietors in Ireland by commencing Mr. J. C. GLYN said the bill met with the cordial ap-
works which had never been finished, and said he hoped proval of the mercantile cla-ses, but they complained of
the report of the commissioners who were appointed to in- this piecemeal amendment of the commercial law.
sport the works would be laid on the table. Mr. LOCKHART suggested amendments to be made in
Mr. WILSON said the way in which this question had committee.
been dealt with by tee Government had exhibited at all Mr. CAIRNS had only one objection to the bill, and
events an earnest desire to do full justice to the land'ords that was that it did not go far enough; it should be made
of Ireland, who had been aggrieved by the way in which to extend to Ireland.
these works had been carried on. They last year received Mr. ATHERTON complained that the bill reversed the
thereport of the commissioners, in consequence of which rule of law which threw the onus probandi upon the party
arrangements were made for a large remission of the snaking the claim • but still, as it met with the approval of
amounts charged for the works, and they were taking the mercantile ' community, be would not oppose the second
means for winding up the works as soon as possible
Alter some further conversation the vote was agreed to. reading.
The next vote, fa'`',oo 1., for secret service money, passed Mr. CRAUFURD was satisfied the effect of the bill
without remark. ' would be highly beneficial to society, as it would make par-
The next vote was 255,5601., for stationery, printing, accepting bills of exchange and other
and binding, ntieegsoltuioabelocainusttirouums iennts.
Colonel DUNNE asked what local authorities they were Mr. KIRK, as an Irish merchant, hoped the bill would
to appeal tevaciso of be extended to the sister kingdom.
overcharge of the income tax, and
also whet al Mr. S. WORTLEY thought that some provisions might
The Committepeetelsa weuldbe made to collectors ? be added to the bill to meet the evil of bill discounting.
en divided.
For the amendment The The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought the bill ought
Against it. . 'neat
51
The vote Was then ************** * ---to.
***********************
85-34
to be extended to Ireland.
The bill was then read a second time.
6,144/. salaries
tarp of Ireland.
' and expenof METROPOLITAN DISTRICTS.
sea the office of Chief Sacra-
Mr- W. WILLIAMS con Sir
the committee on Sir B. HALL moved for an address for returns from
there being a reduction ofhoedarly one-half in the salary of
• each parish and extra-parochial place within the city of
the chief secretary. Re
wkintokwngreaantyergeeffintoleienreyn Westminster, and the several Parliamentary boroughs of
discharge the duties of that onfeficeer Marylebone, Finsbury, Tower Hamlets, Lambeth, South-
than the hon. baronet who at pr work, and Greenwich, setting forth :—l.—The population
esent held it, (Hear.) of such parish. IL—The rateable value. 111.-1. In
Iu answer to Mr. MACARTNEY,
what manner the vestry of such parish is constituted; 2.
Sir J. YOILN-G stated that he had done all in his power If by any local act or acts to state such act or acts, with
to carnv out the recommendations of the commissioners dates thereof; 3. If a select or appointed vestry by
.whom_
with reference to the reduction of salaries. In the depart- elected ;4. The number of vestrymen ;5. General periods
ment of the Andit-office, they had, however, fallen intor aof meeting. IV.-1. Whether the vestry have the ma-
great
mito transact the nagetnent of the poor; 2. If not, by whom are the guar-
stake ; for it would be imssib le
business with a smaller numberEef cpleorks.diens elected; 3. Under what acts; 4. Whether parish is
The CHANCELLOR of the XCHEQTJER said he was a single parish or in union; 5. If part of a union, to what
at a loss to conceive what relation there was between that union does it belong. V.-1. Under whose jurisdiction
subject and the vote for the iexpense of printing and eta. the paving, cleansing, and lighting, is •2.1 fby a board
gallant colonel would move for aelearate
.from the vestry,t stateis;
what
tionery. If the hon. and
o. under acts ap-
p meeting:
a return cf those allowances, t col
old be laid on the pointed 3. The mode of election ; 4. Number of such
trustees, or otherwise Air duration in office ; 6. General periods of
table. With regard to the question of a eals, he thou ht board ;5. Th
tense nonce of the Su
any other boards of commissioners,
he had made it understood that, c
in
parochial
matters,ise, in such parish, having jurisdiction
1 grounds, or otherwise, as baths and washhouses, burial
peals in Ireland having been so mlunchonfewcier than was ah--
ticipated, there was uo justification for maintaining in
purposeto state the act or acts constituting
Westminsterseparately a.a)noddAetnah(oeti:mspiornalreilliatatrf.
Ireland a separate commission,
inLondon,
and consquentlall a-
their election..
peals would come direct to the commissioners .
mentary borough
cityf appointed,
Mr. HUME observed that the amount of permtinganedf
house\\nth return from the parishes f ll,'
stationery for the :douse of Lords and for the
o esvishann Elth
We set ntinster
Schedule or the 1 brook, and from each of th • ekes l
and
Lee, Kid-
regard
tohtehae PAaitl i aomf
tehne-
e°ailhotta. ought to he placed under different heads.
. i : .
of Parliament the ;being 0 parishes and places (n t
regard to the gazettes they were by Act
appear, a parish in the city of London or the liberties
nape: a in which the notices of every kind were to app
• ' . ttahreyrer,of,rattihgehoemityentoi,fmeWd
but he did not think that the charges for advertisements ,
should be as high as they were. He did not wish that the
15 and 16 Vic., c. 85, and from all other public should lose molten, but he found that a profit of
Diaces, if any (except as excepted), incleded it t!lii: e:and
8,1031. a year was made by the London Gazette, 6771., by :,veddy tables of mortality. (Parishes in uniou Londonfor
the liVinburdh Gazette, and 7811., by the Dublin Gazette.
relief to be grouped together, so far as they are included
He thought the advertisements bhould be printsd ut the
lowest possile cent, and as far as his inquiries extended in this return).
one gazette would ',newer for all purposeß.
CONV ICT PRISONS (IRELAND).
The CHANCELLOR of the E Sir J. YOUNG moved for leave to bring in a bill for
in the spirit of the remarks of the hon.XCHEQ UER agreed end regulation of convict prisons in Ireland,
e
gentleman. the formation .
bill was to provide means whereby the
The charges for insertions in the London Gazette had been The object of the
• might be employed in certain industrial
considerably reduced already, and he considered that a , Irish convicts
further reduction might be thought of, if it was the opi- : occupations.
nion of the house, as it was the opinion of his hon. friend, Lord NAAS asked whether the right hon. gentleman
as it was his own opinion, and the opinion of the Secretary , meant to bring in a bill for the purposes of regulating
of the Treasury, that the three Gazettes ought to bo consoli- county prisons
he had such a bill prepared,
dated ; but it was onlyjust to the Treasury to mention that Sir J. YOUNG said that .
he did not feel •
a vigorous effort had been made by his hon. friend la it but in the present state of the session in-
session to get the _Edinburgh Gazette consolidated with the dined to bring it in.
London Gazette, but local and national feelings proved too • The house adjourned at 10 minutes to one o'clock.

THEA.rhE LOYAL DRURY LANE.
Lessee, Mr. E. T. Smith.
TUB EVENLNG, JUNE 10,
Will be performed LUCIA DI LkSIMERMOOR. Lucia, Sidlle.
Agnes Bury; Alice, Madame Hendrich; Raymond, Signor Arnold':
Lori Arthur, Signor Santi ; Norman; Signor Cazteill ; Lord Henry
Ashton, Mr. Weiss; and Edgard°, Mr. Sins It eves.
Followed by the pew RALLET DIVERTISSEMENT, entitled
UNE FEE EN OLYMPE.
Pr.ces—Stal!s, 7s; Dress Circle, Ss ; Boxes, 3s ; Pit, 2s. ; Gallery,
Is.; and Private Boxes. One, Two, Three and Four Guineas. The
Rox-oftice open daily tram Teu till Six, where places may be
seeoree., Private BOXOS and Stalls to be bad of Messrs. Leader and
Cock. 63, New Bond-street.

TILE [TILE ROYAL HAYMARKET.
Uncle: tho management of Mr. Muckstono.
THIS EVENING, JUNE 10, •

Will be per'ormed the , Drama of THE KNIGHT 3 OF THE
TNLIGE. Characters by Messrs Chippendale, Howe, G.
Vandenhoff, W. Farren, Compton, and Buckstone; Miss Reynold%
Miss E. ‘,rey, and Mrs. Fitzwilliam.

fter w !ich, the entirely new an.l original extravaganza, entitled
tsUCKSTONE'S VOYAGE HOUND THE GLOBE (IN LEI-
C ::•ITEIt•SQUA.ICE), written by J. K. Planche, Esq.

iIOYAL PRINCE:34'S THEATRE, OXFORD-STREET.
Under the Management of Mr. CHARLES Eras.
TIM EVENING, JUNE 10,
Will be performed FROM VILLAGE TO COURT. Principal
characters by Messrs. Harley, Fitinr, and Cathcart; Misses Mur-
ray, Heath, and Vicash.
Followed by FAUST AND MARGUERITE. Characters by
vicars. C. Kesn and David Fisher ; Mrs. Winstahley and Miss C.
Leclerc i.
To conclude with A STORM IN. A TEA-CUP. Principal cha-
rs.ters by Mr. sad Mrs. W. Lacy.