The Sun.
London, England, 1854-12-19 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, DECEMBER l9, 1854

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
. Their lorclihips met at five o'clock.
DISHONOURED BILLS OF EXCHANGE, &c.,

BILL.
Lord BROUGHA.M, in asking leave to introduce a
bill to permit the registration of dishonoured bills of ex-
change and promissory notes in England, and to allow
execution thereon, took occasion to lament that he
should now see this country involved in a war of civili-
sation against barbarism, and also regretted the attack
made in that house and elsewhere against a powerful
empire—Austria—whose position was so peculiar that
we should not blame her for her tardiness in joining the
Western Powers against Russia.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
THE VOTE OF THANKS TO THE ARMY AND
NAVY.
On the motion of the Duke of NEWCASTLE the
names of Generals Estcourt and Airey, and of Admiral
Stopford, were added in the vote of thanks which their
lordships had passed to the army and navy.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH expressed a hope
that this motion would not be drawn into a precedent.
COLONIAL AND WAR DEPARTMENTS.
Earl GREY moved for an address for copies of any
orders made by her lelajesty in Council with respect to
the appointment of a fourth Secretary of State, and the
division of the Colonial and War Departments, and of any
correspondence between the different departments of her
Majesty's Government with reference to the changes
which may have been made in the arrangements for
transacting the business of the army in consequence of
the above division.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said there was no ob-
jection to the motion.
The motion was accordingly agreed to.
THE MILITIA.
The Earl of GLENGALL wished to know from the
Government how many regiments of Irish and Scotch
militia they intend to embody. He would rather have
seen the whole of the Irish and Scotch militia embodied
than that we should have recourse to the aid of foreign
mercenaries.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE•justified the course which
the Government had taken. Nine regiments of militia in
Ireland had been embodied which would produce from
7,000 to 8,000 men, while other regiments had been only
enrolled. A. similar complement of men would be raised
in Scotland.
Lord DESA.RT was exceedingly glad to hear that the
Government intend at length to embody the militia upon
an extensive scale. At the same time it was to be re-
gretted that they had lowered the military character of
the nation by having recourse to a foreign enlistment
bill, which had, as was to be expected, met with unusual
condemnation. English honour and English interests
could be protected without having recourse to hired
foreigners.
ENLISTMENT OF FOREIGNERS' BILL.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE moved the third read-
ing of this bill.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said, as his noble
friend the noble duke had not intimated, in moving the
third reading, that it was his intention to propose
any further amendment, he presumed they might under-
stand that the bill was to go down to the House of
Commons in its present shape. That being the case,
and, as very few of their lordships were present on
Saturday—(hear, hear) —it was but right he should state
to the house what the material alteration was which the
bill had sustained in its progress through the house.
That alteration was confined altogether to the substitu-
tion of 10,000 for 15,000 foreigners. No doubt, that
was a very material concession on the part of the Govern.
ment. It was one which did not do any very great credit
to the forethaught and mature consideration which ought
to have presided over the concocting of a bill of this
great importance, inasmuch as it appeared to them a
matter of very little consideration whether the number
of foreigners to be employed in this country was to
be 10,000 or 15,000. But was there no other improve-
ment Because there could be no doubt, under the
second clause, ill-worded as it now was, under the head
of bodies of reserves, it was possible for the Ministers
to retain in this country, as reserves of foreign troops
employed abroad, a very large proportion of the 10,000
men whom the Crown was permitted to have in Eng-
land. It was a remarkable circumstance that, while it.
was declared to be the intention of the Government
that t!ee reserves of the British regiments employed in
the Crimea should be established at Malta, or some
place convenient to the Crimea, it was proposed that
the reserves of the German battalions should be re-
tained in England. Now, that being the case, it
seemed to him very unnecessary that those Germen
recruits should be brought to this country at all.
(Hear, hear.) It was said there would be inconvenience,
danger, and risk, in employing and
embodying
zac,7itsloiensse.
foreign troops in her Majesty's Mediterranean
But from what did that arisel From distrust'
—(hear, hear)—and if they were distracted in one of themt
garrisons of the Mediterranean, how
could t'nere be 0.1,3 r
security in employing them in the Crimea, with, he
would not say, every probability, but with every risk,
that after having been raised, disciplined, and clothed by
the English Government, they might transfer their services
to the enemy whom they were engaged to attack. Tne
noble duke had j ust stated that there were not enough bar-
racks in the country for the militia. Where, then, were the
German recruits to be placed in the event of their being
brought here ? If they were to be placed in the existirg
barracks it could only be through the exclusion of the
militia, and the Government must defer embodying the
militia until such recruits are sent out in succession to
the Mediterranean. (Hear.) But there was one point
-which had not been adverted to ; it was containul in
the sth clause, and appeared to him to be of very
great importance. (Hear.) By that clause her Maje-ty
was empowered to make supplementary articles of war,
which were to apply to the German and other foreign
troops which might be engaged. Now, by the Mutiny
Act, hei Majeety's articles of war were transmitted to
the judges of the superior courts, and they were bound
judicially to take notice of them. The judges of the
superior courts would, therefore, be compelled to take
notice judicially of two totally different sets of articles
of war, applying to two different bodies of soldiers in
her Majesty's service, via., foreign and English soldiers.
But that inconvenience was nothing to having in our
service foreign and English soldiers subject to different
articles of war. The same offence, committed at the
came time, and in the company of each other—the
Englishman and the foreigner—would, under different
articles of war, be punished in a different manner ; and
none could fail to see that the effect of this on the feel-
ings of the troops and the people might he of a most
serious character. He thought he saw present his noble
and gallant friend the Commander-in-Chief, and he
begged to ask whether this clause had been suhmitted to
him before it was laid ou the table ? He put th
ques-
tion to him on this ground : When he was Governor-
General er-
General of India, his noble and gallant frienras
if not danger, of havinga7
the extreme inconvenience,
two sets of distinct articles of war—one applying
to
the native troops, and the other to the Britistitroop,4—.
and he altered the former and made them conformable
to the latter. Now, the practice of flogging was bell
in reserve for the maintenance of discipline in her Ma-
jesty's forces, but it did not prevail in the German army.
They had a different system—but whether established
by law, as in this country, or by practice, he knew not
—of inflicting punishment by the stick. (Laughter.)
There was another question, also of very great import-
ance. From whence were those foreign troops to come ?
He had already stated the satisfaction with which he
should hear of aey arrangement with his Majesty the
King of Hanover by whiob he could place at the dis-
posal of her Majesty, by becoming a party to the war,
those magnificent troops whose assistance in the Penin-
sula was universally admitted to be of the greatest pos-
sible advantage to the British army. But the value
which he placed upon the troops which could be ob-
tained from the other small German Powers was ex-
tremely little, and, unless he was greatly misinformed,
the opinion generally of officers who had served in the
Peninsula, and were acquainted with the relative merits
of foreign troops, although favourable to the employ-
ment of the German Legion, which was formed of men
who were subjects of our own Sovereign, was decidediy
against the introduction into her Majesty's service, to
fight by the side of our own soldiers, of German and
other troops, obtained from anywhere in any foreign
country. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) adhered to the
opinion that there were no troops in the world equal
to the British troops, under whatever circumstances
they were placed. lie did not believe that any
Germans could equal the British soldiers under such
circumstances as those at Inkerman, and under such
circumstances as might again exist in the difficult
posi-
tion in which our army was now placed. (Hear, hear.)
A chain cable formed in part of wrought and cast iron
might prove equally as good as one made entirely of
wrought iron in smooth water, and might hold a ship
and preserve it frem the rocks, but as soon as the strain
of the storm acted upon it, it would give way where the
links were weakest, and the vessel would be lost. That
was precisely the view he took of the unequal line of a
battle where equal confidence could not be reposed in
all the regiments engaged. If one gave way in any
Place, the position was forced, and the greatest possible
calamities might follow. His wish was that the whole
British a Irny should be formed of wrought iron—that I
every man opposed
whom they to the enemy should be a man on
depend under any circumstances.
(Hear,. hear.) A.na4,,fter all, there was a great differ-
ence between the
world,
soldierld and the soldier of any
other country in the
man,
rfe owndid
constitution not
whene
ex-
aggerated the advantagyers
lie said it gave to ever
rool the highest to the
lowest, a sentiment of personal
_dignity which it was im-
possible Government in any other
aUnpdr-iede in being an
r
possible tolioebiti
a Englishman,cosvardh and
country ;
that if he acted the part of
he knew
be hooted at when he returnee home—that his comrades
look
world
shun hint, and that not a, "man
laugh.) Why that it was that
at him.
which made rnthaede
men fight—those were the reasons
m
defy the enemy and preserve the position entrusted
them. How different was the case with the foreigners
to
whom it was proposed to employ 3 Disgraced, aban-
doned, driven with contumely from the army, they
anything .about them,
would go back to their own country jtit as well off as
they were before. No one knew
et d as had
assumed, though they had disgraced the arms which they h
assumed, they remained quite as much respe
vve they
were formerly on the banks of the Elbe, the eiser, or
wh there
the Danube. He asked the other night whether erman
small
was any however
G
understanding with any of the
Powers, but he received no answer. There, _ ,
must be some understanding. There were two asehs
of foreigners from whom we could recruit--eneu cl -
charged from the military service, and men in service.
Those discharged from service were absorbed in agricul-

D.....!••••.
ture and trade, and other occupations, and therefore it
was in the last degree uncertain how many men could
be obtained from that class. It was different with re-
tard to the men now in service. He would like to know
what consideration was to be given to the German
princes for selling the blood of their subjects ? Would
any little German prince put himself to the inconvenience
of giving us the privilege of enlisting his subjects in our
ranks without being paid for it ? That was the consi-
deration ; and, in common sense and common truth,
was there any difference, in fact, in the consideration
we gave to a little German prince for selling us the ser-
vices of his subjects, and the consideration the buyer of
slaves gave to the King of Dahomey. He did not see
how the Government could act on different principles on
the banks of the Conde and in the banks of the Elbe. If
they insisted as far as possible, and by all the means i❑
their power, upon that detestable traffic being put down
on the coast of Africa, was it to be endured that they
should come to Parliament for a bill to enable them to

establish that very traffic in the interior of Europe ? For
what was it but that? (Opposition cheers.) If these
princes would join the alliance—(hear, hear)—then he
saw no reason against others endeavouring to induce
them to send their subjects to assist in the conflict ; but
if, without joining the alliance, they would only take the
money to sell the blood of their subjects, he must say
that it was a traffic which pli.cei them on a level with
the lowest and most debased princes on the coast of
Africa. He (Lord Ellenborough) was ready to admit
the extent of the wealth and the industry of this country,

and the value of these in a time of peace, and that it was
most de- irable to give a large amount of attention to the
attainment of these objects ; but he said that he had
given his attention to what he considered the attainment
of greater objects—the maintenance, namely, for the
country of which he was a subject, of its strength, and
to give it security against foreign States in defence of its
liberty. One of the best and wisest of minkind had told
us that one of the most material points in a state was to
maintain a body of military men ; but to the extent that
we employed foreigners, to that extent we were slighting
the principle and depriving ourselves of the advantages
which were promised to an opposite course; for it was an
advantage that was incalculable which that system gave
us when the peace was concluded, if ever it should be
concluded, in having in every Tillage of the country men
who had seen war, and who were liable to be called out
at any time on military service. He believed that her
Majesty's Ministers could not do anything more injurious
than to introduce foreigners instead of British soldiers.
He sail instead, because the more easy they found it to
get foreigners, the less trouble would they take to obtain
Englishmen. The Government had gone to war upon the
current finances of the year, they bad gone to war with-
out animals, they had gone into war without a moveable
army—a preparation which was indispensable to suc-
cess, and without which a victorious peace was im-
possible. He said it was impossible, because if they
went to war upon these conditions, it was contrary
to all the theory of war—contrary to all the expe-
rience of ages, and to common sense, that they should
ever attain to that success which would give them a
safe and an honourable peace. But we were told by
the noble lord that our reserve is the people of Eng-
land. Some represented that noble lord as being of
all others, from his previous knowledge of the war, the
best person to conduct the hostilities. He (Lord El-
lenborough) knew that a reserve was a body of dis-
ciplined soldiers, who were ready trained to undertake
the active prosecution of the war—(cries of "hear, bear,"
from the Opposition)—but to speak of having a reserve
in the people was to show contempt for the reasoning
powers of the people. (Cheers.) But, however, if that
were still the opinion of the Government, let them make
their appeal to the people of England, and not to the
people of Germany. (Renewed cheers.) Moreover, the
time for that was a time of difficulty. But that we
should now be in difficulty was entirely owing to the
incites of the Government, who had neglected to make
that necessary provision without which success in the
war could not be obtained. There was point on which
he had not yet addressed their lordships, but on which
he thought it would yet be necessary to ask their atten-
tion, he meant the general conduct of the war. He
thought it would be his duty at the earliest possible
moment to state his sense of what had been done, his
opinion of what ought to be done, and his deep convic-
tion that, unless the war were conducted on military
principles, the conflict would be most fatal, and the re-
sults would not only disappoint the people, but bring
the greatest calamities on the country. (Cheers.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that, although
he had taken no part in the debates on this bill, and as
he had accidentally heard all the speeches of the noble
earl, he was induced to take this last opportunity of this
bill being before the house to state the grounds on which
he supported it, seeing the importance which was at-
tached to it—not an undue importance in one sense, but
a very undue importance in another, from the incredibly
exaggerated apprehensions (cries of " Hear, hear,"
from the Government)—which apprehensions, the more
they were looked at, sifted, and observed—apprehen-
sions which, when the phantom of fear paraded on this
subject came to be analysed, when the light was held to
the spectre which the noble lord had raised, would be
found to vanish into air in the came way that the best
accredited spectres— (laughter)—had always vanished.
(Hear, hear.) Upon this bill he was anxious to state
his opinion on both the points of view which had been
observed in the noble earl's criticism, both of them of
great importance. He would take the first point to
which the noble earl in his first speech in opposition to
the bill seemed to attach the greatest importance, but of
wEcli the house had heard less in all hie subsequent op-
, position—(cries of Hear," from Ministerialists)—viz.,
the constitutional objection. They had rather less of
that objection that night than they had hitherto been
aecustomed to hear from the noble earl. (Laughter.)
They might hear a good deal of it out of doors, be-
ceepe the people di l not understand the provisions
of the bill ; and, that being so, he honoured and re-
spected the people for it. Such a thing in this
house was ridiculous, but he honoured and respected the
people for their jealousy lest, through means of this war
in which they had engaged in defence of their censtitu-
tion, that constitution should be destroyed--especially
when they were told by noble lords in that house that
they were about to be tyrannised over by a body of
Germans. (Cries of " Hear, hear," and laughter.) That
was the phantom. The noble lord had forgotten that
there was no period (luring a war with this country when
the constitution had not been violated in the very man-
ner proposed by this bill, and violated without all the
precautions taken here against ultimate injury—from
the wars of the Duke of Marlborough to the wars of the
Duke of Wellington, which comprehended a very con-
siderable space of time—during which time every bril-
liant action, every successful campaign, owed its success
to the very means which were again proposed. But did
the Duke of Wellington or the Duke of Marlborough de-
precate the use of such troops I It stood to reason, and
accorded with the very nature of war itself, that when
we took part in a great military struggle, considering
the habits of this country, and the means which it pos-
sessed—which, thank God, had never been a great war-
like country with a large standing army—when called on
to begin the war, we must begin it with the means on
which we could immediately lay our hands. He was
rather surprised that the noble earl, among his great
employments, and the high subjects which engaged his
attention, should take notice of what had fallen from so
insignificant a person as he (Lord Lansdowne) was—
(laughter)—but it did so happen that in the course of
the last session, in describing to the house his sense of
the magnitude, importance, difficulty, and possible
duration of the war, he did take the opportunity to
state his opinion, and to find that, on all these points,
the noble earl agreed with him. And now, whatever
differences existed before, the whole world were agreed
upon the immense difficulty of the war, and the power
of the enemy, too much overlooked at first, with whom
we had to contend. We were now become aware of the
great resources which the enemy possessed ; but he be-
lieved we were equal to him in the power of our navy—
equal to him in the extent of our wealth, and the
amount of our resonrcee. But here he must say that,
when the noble earl treated the pursuits of commerce
and sound political economy with so much contempt,
he must remind him that those were the means from
which Parliament derived the power with which they
had entered into the great conflict for national honour.
(Cheers.) We were, he said, equal in respect to those
things which he had pointed out, but there was one re-
spect in which Russia surpassed us, for Russia bad
population—she had numbers. It was not for the pur-
pose of enabling us to meet Russia that we had had re-
' course to this measure, but that we might turn outnum-
bers against numbers. Therefore, when it was asked by
what means we were to oppose that great warlike po-
tentate, he answered, by all means—in every way.
(Ministerial cheers.) Gallant was the army which Eng-
land had sent out to the Crimea, and almost incompar-
ably superior to every other army which we had ever
sent out, but did it possess numbers equal to the con-
flict ? Did the noble lord think that this country could
turn out an equal number of armed soldiers to fight the
legions of Russia! (Hear, hear.) We had never had a
war in which we had not employed auxiliaries ; and
always with the greatest advantage to success, and with-
out any inconvenience whatever. But then, though
that were so, they were told, that te employ such auxi-
liaries was, first, highly unconstitutional ; and, secondly,
that it was highly inexpedient. Why were they to be
deterred from employing such forces ? It was not the
object for which these men were to be employed
which was to deter us, but the possible use which might
be made of them by her Majesty Queen Victrrla—
deeply interested in the war with Russia, and in the suc-
cessful prosecution of that war—if she should suddenly
divert these means from their purpose, awl, the better
to disorganise the means, should launch from the depots
the men which occupied them against the people of Eng-
land. But, in the opinion of the noble lord, the British
yeomanry and the people of England would be found to
be no match for these foreigners in defence of their
liberty. (Loud laughter.) Why, if the noble lord had
stated his thoughts out of doors to the barber of any
village, or the farmer of any district, ho would be told
that that was the substance of his apprehension. (Cries
of "heir," and laughter.) He might remind them that,
during the time of King William the Third, the Dutch
Guards were very gladly employed in the war without
any fear whatsoever as to the constitution of this coun-
try. But the first mention of that apprehension was to
be found upon the accession of the House of Hanover,
when men dreaded the adoption of principles which were
inconsistent with the British Constitution ; then it was
military
much
exertions, further
thein
that the first enactment against the enlistment of foreign
troops was passed. But, before the country could en-
gage
anecweassity
war that rfeoqreuiigrnedtraonops any great
immediately felt, and Parliament hastened to make
enunpro-
vision for their ,tremployment. The noble earl not only
wished this
it would he a ytoio everything alone, but said that
degradation to the British. soldier to have
a foreign force, perhaps somewhat inferior, fighting by
our side. Surely the
trained and disciplined force---either might see a well
German, Spanish,

or Dutch —fighting by their side without any feeling of
degradation.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGII-1 assure the noble
marquis I never said so.
The Marquis of LA.NSDOWNE begged the noble
earl's pardon. The remark was ❑ot made by the noble
earl, but by some other noble lord. With regard to the
employment of a foreign force, he would go back to that
remarkable scene of British glory, the battle of Minden.
On that occasion the English army was extremely in-
ferior in numbers to the mercenaries in our pay, but
they were not on that account, at all discouraged in the
battle. Threeßritish regiments made a charge, which he

(the noble marquis) mentioned now because they were
regiments which had transmitted their glorious name
and character to their descendants—he meant the Innis-
killings, the Blues, and the Scots Greys. *When they
were permitted to advance under a brave and gallant
leader, they made the celebrated charge of the day, and
they certatnly did not enter the conflict with less hope,
confidence, and satisfaction, because they saw associated
with them in their bravery and glory, and animated by
the same spirit, regiments of Germans, Hanoverians,
Hessians, and others. (Hear, hear.) It was the infinite
importance of bringing every well-trained Englishman
into the field, and to procure every means of carrying
on the war, that the Government now felt themselves
called upon to pass this bill. It was intended for the
purpose of enabling them to engage in the contest on
the most extensive scale. In 1806 his Majesty was ex-
pressly enabled to do what her Majesty wished to do by
this act—to alter the war regulations so as to make
them of service to the nation. He therefore trusted
there would be no objection on the part of any of their
lordships to this bill. It only gave a small extension
to the privileges which her Majesty already enjoyed,
and would be attended with great service to the public.
(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of DERBY—My lords, having already, on
a former occasion, expressed at considerable length my
objections to the bill, I should not have thought it neces-
sary to trouble your lordships on the present occasion
but for the speech just delivered by the noble marquis.
I must be permitted to say that I cannot but think the
noble marquis, is commenting on the speech of the noble
earl (Ellenborouh), and on the speech which that noble
lord delivered on a former occasion, has departed from
that courtesy which generally eharacterises him. (No,
no.) When he talked about arguments used in this
house as being positively absurd, and stated that what-
ever respect he might entertain for opinions of the kind
used by the noble lord out of doors, he entertained no
respect whatever for the expression f such opinions in
doors. The noble marquis, in using that language, took
up a position which, I think, even his high character
does not entitle him to hold, nor do I think he has been
exceedingly happy in the ridicule he has sought to throw
upon the constitutional argument of my noble friend .
He made it a sort of charge, in the first instance, that
we had heard little of the constitutional argument, as if
my noble friend was unable to make two speeches with
regard to the same bill, without feeling it necessary to
reproduce the same arguments ; and having complained
that my noble friend did not on this occasion lay any
stress upon that argument, the noble marquis pro-
ceeds to cast the whole power of his ridicule on a consti-
tutional argument and a constitutional objection, but cer-
tainly not on one like the argument and objection urged
by my noble friend. With regard to the constitutional
argument, my noble friend did lay great stress on a former
occasion upon the substitution of foreign troops in this
country, and their employment in this country, to the
exclusion of our own troops. It was to the employment
here of a foreign force that the constitutional argument
of my noble friend applied ; not that he apprehended
eight or ten thousand foreigners in this country would
make themselves masters of Britain. What my noble
friend said was, that it was contrary to the constitutional
principles upon which this country had proceeded, to
give to any Government power to employ foreign troops
at home in exclusion of the troops of the country itself.
If that constitutional doctrine be an absurdity, I hum-
bly beg that I may take my full share of the absurdity
which has been cast on my noble friend. I say in ex-
clusion of British troops, because it has been admitted
over and over again, that you do not embody the militia
now, in consequence of not having room to quarter them,
and yet you are to embody in the country, I presume
in barracks—but it would be more objectionable if bil-
leted—a large body of foreign troops for the purpose of
training, and, as the bill states, "keeping up a perma-
nent depot," at least so long as this war lasts, and occu-
pying these barracks which are not sufficiently exten-
sive to accommodate your own troops. The argument
which my noble friend used with regard to " expedi-
ency" went against the adoption or incorporation in
the British army of these foreign troops at all. He was
first of all charged with having said that it was a degra-
dation to the British troops to fight by the side of
foreign troops. Nobody said any such thing. What
really occurred was this. A statement was made by a
noble friend of mine not now present, that it was a
humiliating and degrading idea to the people of this
country, that for the purpose of peace or war its own
soldiers were at the very outset of the war insufficient—
(hear, hear)—and I think it is a humiliation and degra-
dation to the country. (Hear.) Nobody said it was
a degradation to British troops to fight side by side of
foreign troops ; but if it be necessary to have these foreign
troops—if we are to be subject to that humiliation—still
there was no occasion for this bill for the purpose of rais-
ing them. The necessity arising for the bill is that you
must drill and train these troops in England, and this
necessity especially arises from the fact that you are
about to let in foreign troops without the consent and
authority of their own Sovereigns—to pick up the refuse
from all quarters of the globe. The noble marquis says,
that for many of our celebrated victories we have been
indebted to the co-operation of foreign troops. I ad-
mit it ; but it the noble lord will follow out his historical
investigation, he will find that, in almost every instance,
the troops so co-operating were either fighting under the
banners, and with the sanction of their respective Sove-
reigns, or they were fighting in a national cause. At the
battle of Minden we might be considered not so much
the principals as the auxiliaries. It was fought much
more for the German than the English cause. But
this is not the case with a body of mercenaries, not act-
ing under the control of their Sovereigns, but merely
paid with your money. My lords, with regard to such
troops, I agree with my noble friend, they are not the
materials I should like to put by the side of the British
army. The noble marquis tells us that he was long ago
persuaded that this was about to be a great war ; I wish
he had impressed that feeling upon his colleagues. My
noble friend does not complain of your disciplining fo-
reign troops, but of training them in this country, and
employing them without any sanction of their own so•
yereigns. No doubt the Duke of Wellington employed
Portuguese and Spaniards during the Peninsular war,
but could any one say those troops were not acting in
their own national cause ? Two objections have been
raised to this bill ; one is, that it is an unconstitutional
principle to admit of the continued residence, drilling,
and training of organised foreign bodies in this country
with a view to their permanently remaining here ; the
second is, that as a matter of expense it is unwise to in-
troduce these foreign troops. First, from the manner
in which it is proposed to raise them, we can have no
just confidence that they will not betray the trust re-
posed in them ; and next, because for the paltry purpose
of obtaining ten, or fifteen, or twenty thousand German
troops, you make a declaration in the face of Parliament
and of the country that cannot but give the greatest dis-
couragement to those efforts which would be made with-
out stint by your own country, if you did not discourage
their coining forward in the manner they propose to do.
We have not heard from my friend the Commander in-
Cuief in what respect he conceives it is necessary to intro-
duce a difference in regard to punishments in the prac-
tice here from the practice in India. The English army
is subject to corporal punishment, and yet it is proposed
that these German troops shall not be subject to the
same corporal punishment. I think there ought not to
be any distinction of that kind drawn. I cannot con-
ceive anything more objectionable than such a distinc-
tion being drawn • and not drawn by the authority of
Parliament directly given, but by the authority of the
military departments, acting under a general power given
to them by Parliament to alter the articles of war and
the regulations of the service. One word more before I
sit down, upon a subject which has not been adverted to
on the present occasion, but which, I think, deserves the
serious consideration of her Majesty's Government. You
are looking to every quarter from whence you may draw
your troops; you don't want money, but you !want
men ; you may have, without stint, any amount of
money if you will only make use of the resources of the
country. I would ask whether you might not, for the
purposes of this war, advantageously use any of the na-
tive force in India ? If troops not strictly English are
necessary, those soldiers are at the present time most
available ; nor do I think that there could be any solid
objection to the introduction of the Indian native troops,
in conjunction with the English troops, to the battle-
fields of Russia. From that quarter you might derive
aid without delay. But I wish to ask whether, in the
prosecution of this war, we are to look for men or money
from our colonial possessions? I saw that the Le-
gislata re of Canada voted a sum of 20,0001. to be
applied towards the amelioration of the hardships
suffered by our armies in the present war. Ire
joiced to see Risk, and hailed it as an indication
of friendly feeling and sympathy towards us. But
your lordships will see that it was only given as
a mark of sympathy. This is obviously the case ; for
the 20,0001. was to be applied in equal parts between
our armies and the armies of our ally the French. Ido
not complain of this—far otherwise ; but I recall it to
your lordships' recollections that you many see that the
gift was made simply out of sympathy, and was in itself
no mark of the allegiance of Canada. It was a mark of
sympathy to the cause, but not of sympathy to the coun-
try. The North American provinces now arc in every
respect as independent of this country as Ireland was
previous to the Union. They are, it is true, under the
same Sovereign as this country, but their affairs are con-
ducted by Administrations of their own, under respon-
sible Governments. They are not liable to contribute
towards the payment of the debts of this country, nor
are they subject to its laws, but are left to their own
local government. They enjoy the same independence
as Ireland di lat the time I have referred to. But was
there ever a war engaged in by this country towards the
prosecution of which, in conjunction with England, Ire-
land was not ready to contribute both her money and
her men ! (Hear.) Now, with regard to many of the
colonies, I am willing to admit that the scarcity of their
population, and the nature of their employment, might
prevent them contributing in men largely towards the
maintenance of the war. But this dues not apply to the
British colonies of North America. They are at the
present time in a state of great prosperity and we
belialteveh,
and with an ever-absorbing population ; an I
that towards the carrying on this war the North
American colonies would, if requested, readily contri-
bute without payment, if necessary; but if you have
the money ready, then, I believe, with payment, you
would be able to raise immediately in those colonies a

certain amount of force to be officered by persons now
resident in Canada, and then added to the British army,
not as a local contingent, for that would be in accord-
ance with a system which I do not approve of, but as
part of the British army. I verily believe that nothing,
would gratify the North American colonies more than
to be allowed to raise, say, three or four regiments, to
be in every respect placed npon the same footing as the
British army, subject to this difference, that the periods
of service which are now assigned to the British army to
be passed in this country should, in their case, be so
altered that it should be passed in their own country—
such service being considered as home service whilst
their service in this country should be considered as
foreign service. In ail other respects these North Ameri-
can i egiments would be on the footing of other regiments
of the British army. I throw this out for the conside-
ration of her Majesty's Government, and I must say
that, looking to the position of these colonies, looking
to the prosperity and privileges they enjoy, their immu-
nity from contribution towards the debts of this country,
and the obligations they are under to this country, it
does not appear too much to me to ask that they should
be ready to testify their allegiance to our Sovereign in
joining us in carrying on a war, one effect of whioh may
eventually be to render neces'ary the defence of those
colonies as part of the British empire. (Hear, hear.) I
believe they would be rejoiced to supply troops to
be considered as representing and forming a portion
of the British army ; and such an addition to our forces
would not be, and could not be, considered by any one
as being an addition of foreigners to our army. I have
only thrown this suggestion out for the consideration of
her Majesty's Government ; and with regard to the bill
itself now before the house, I have only to say that,
retaining all my objections to the bill, notwithstanding
the speech of the noble marquis opposite, I shall confine
my further opposition to saying " no" to its third read-
ing, in case it goes to a division. I shall not, how-
ever, divide the house upon it, as your lordships have
already, though by a narrow majority, approved of the
principle of the bill—and the principle is all that there
is in the bill.
After a few words in explanation from the Marquis of
LANSDOWNE,
Viscount HARDINGE explained the regulations
which he had adopted with regard to the Sepoy and her
Majesty's regiments during the time that he was Gover-
nor-General of India. With respect to the clause in the
bill which was so strongly objected to by the noble
earl opposite (Ellenborough), he stated that her Ma-
jesty already had the power, without the sanction of
Parliament, to alter any part of the articles of war,
so far as such alterations did not militate against the
provisions of the Mutiny Act. It was advisable at once
to raise additional troops, and he thought the Govern-
ment had adopted the wisest course by bringing in the
present bill.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that the ma-
terial question was whether, in the same army, two
regiments Serving under the same general, one being
composed of Germans and the other of Englishmen, the
same military law and government would be applied
to both ?
Viscount tiARDINGE said that lie had known,
under similar circumstances, a different law to be ap-
plied to each regiment, without any inconvenience re-
sulting from it.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that may have
been the case where the regiments were under separate
commanders, but the application of such a system to the
case of different regiments under the same commander
could not be attended with success.
Viscount HARDINGE said that he once held a
command in Portugal, in the course of which he had
observed the system he had referred to successfully
adopted.
Earl GREY said that the clause which was so much
objected to by the noble earl opposite was introduced
merely as a copy of a similar clause out of an old act of
Parliament, and he thought as it was, in fact for all
purposes, an ineffectual enactment, it would be as well
to omit it. All objections to the clause, and also to the
bill itself, as an unconstitutional one (if any there were),
had, however, been removed by the alterations which had
been made in the same since the bill was introduced
into the house.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH thought it right,
after what had fallen from a noble lord respecting the
Indian army, to say a few words on that subject. Where
the Indian troops were brigaded with the British, and
the officers of the British. regiments had confidence in
them, and the Indian troops had confidence in the Eng-
lish troops, they were, to the extent of their personal
strength, equal to the British soldiers. The 31st native
regiment, which served with the Queen's 13th at Jellal-
abld, arid so with other regiments in many other cases,
had shown themselves to be most excellent soldiers, and
deserving the greatest praise.
The Earl GRANVILLE said, that the noble earl (Earl
of Derby) had complained of his noble friend (the Marquis
of Lansdowne) being discourteous in using the term "ab-
surd" to the arguments of the noble lord opposite ; but he
would like toknow whether it was not equally discourteous
in that noble earl to speak of the bill as being " debasing "
and " degrading I" (Laughter) He remembered reading
some very remarkable evidence given by the noble earl
(Earl of Ellenborough) before a committee in the other
house, in which he told them he had not consulted Sir
H. Peel upon the subject. (Hear, hear.) That certainly
appeared to him rather injudicious, not to obtain from
Sir R. Peel, his colleague and leader, his opinion upon
such a question. He supposed be knew, by intuition,
his views, and therefore thought it was not worth while
to trouble him with any communication. But this he
(Earl Granville) knew—that he had stated to that com-
mittee that he had consulted the Duke of Wellington,
and he had heard him (the Earl of Ellenborough) express
in the most touchingtones that he ever heard a noble lord
express himself in that house his opinion of the sagacity
and wisdom of that great man. He would read a passage
from the speech made by the Duke of Wellington, upon
the occasion of the Militia Bill of 1852 being discussed
in that house, to show the value which the noble duke set
upon the foreign troops under his command. He said,
" Everything has its commencement, and this is only a
.commencement. If you have a corpa of reserve,
you must have a commencement, and even that corps
would take some months before it would be ready
for service. Those British armies which have so re-
peatedly received the thanks of your lordships, and which
have served the country tio well—your lordships are
much mistaken if you suppose they were composed of
more than one-third of their whole numbers of real
British subjects of these islands. No such thing. Look
at your great services ; look at the East Indies. I say
that of the soldiers there, not one-third are British sol-
diers. Look at the Peninsula, not one-third of those
employed there were British soldiers. But I tell your
lordships to observe the services those soldiers performed
—they fought great battles against the finest troops in
the world, and they must be prepared to face every-
thing, and to be successful, or else this country would
not bear with them. They are aided by troops—brave,
if you please—for I hold every man to be brave—but
certainly well ordered and well disciplined. Look at
the battle of Waterloo—look at the number of British
troops in that battle, aided by others. I can tell noble
lords that, in that battle, there were 16 battalions of
Hanoverian soldiers—recently raised militia, under the
command of a Hanoverian nobleman now in London,
the Minister from Hanover to this Court—who be-
haved admirably. There were other troops in that
battle—and that was a battle of giants. An operation
was performed there which was folowed by the peace
particularly British disciplined troops, I tell
y
must not suppose that either cannot be
v
Such was the description given of troops
soh
ef andoo
r uvv Eiei ;lei
more
eroeaaorrtbpe l e
I yadmire British troops, disciplined troops,
e; y, u which has now lasted for 37 years. I say,
which were now described to be the refuse and offscour.
logs of all nations ; and such, he believed, was the view
which the Duke of Wellington would now take of the
bill then before the house.
troops,
The
The Earl of MALMESBURY said that there was no
led
d
by their own officers,
a
having made exaggerated arguments, and exciting
un-
necessary alarm. He could only say, that if there had
been any exaggeration, and any fears bad been enter-
aandalomgeyre between
inercena such
r.
enter-
tained, it was in consequence of the course which the
Government had adopted in bringing in this bill, and
the suddenness with which they had called Parliament
together.
Lord REDESDALE thought the most serious feature
to be considered was, how these foreign troops were to
he officered? When foreign troops had fought with ours
they had been officered by the elite of the country to
which they belonged.
1 The Duke of NEWCASTLE explained that he had
made some alterations in the bill to meet objections made
to it in reference to the Queen's prerogative to enlist
foreigners in her Majesty's army,
The bill was then read a third time, and passed.
ADJOURNMENT FOR THE RECESS.
In reply to a question put by the Earl of 11.... f
ALMESBURY
The Earl of ABERDEEN said that the house, at its
rising for the Christmas recess, would adjourn to the 23d
of January.
Their lordships then, at ten minutes past eight o'clock,
adjourned to this day.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair shortly before four
o'clock.

PETITIONS.
Several petitions were presented praying that the
war may be carried on with ♦igour, with a view to a
speedy and honourable termination.
Captain SCOBELL presented a petition from Bath,
praying for a committee of inquiry into the operations
of the duty on stage carriages.
INCOME TAX AND OFFICERS IN THE ARMY.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL wished to ask if her Majesty's
Government would consider of bringing in a bill to exo-
nerate from liability to income tax on their pay officers
of every branch of her Majesty's service in employment
at Vie seat of war, while there employed ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
was exceedingly disagreeable to him to give an answer in
the negative to any question which implied a grateful
feeling to the army in the Crimea ; but at the same
time he was bound to say it was not the intention of
the Government to bring in any such bill, and simply
for this reason—in the first place they did not think the
time had arrived for taking into consideration the ques-
tion of the reward due to the army in the Crimea. But
there was a strong objection to a proposal of this kind,
and that was the admitted fact that rewards for public
services ought not to be given in the shape of exemp-
tion from the payment of taxes. (Hear, hear.)
Besides, it Wag of importance that the rewards offered to
the army in the East should recognise no distinction be-
tween the services of the officers and men. (Cheers.)
THE THETIS.

Admiral WALCOTT wished to ask the First Lord of
;ho Admiralty on what grounds an exchange had beet

effected with the King of Prussia of the Thetis frigate
for two gun-boats ?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said the exchange had not
yet been effected. It had been contemplated, and
was still contemplated. The circumstances were
these—in the month of June the Prussian Government
applied to her Majesty's Government to know if they
were willing to exchange two gun-boats, made in this
country, of peculiar construction, with a light draft of
water, calculated to carry heavy guns, and capable of
being steered either fore or aft, for two old corvettes.
The English Government saw no objection to such an
exchange, and they sent over Mr. Scott Russell to
Dantzic to inspect the gun-boats. That gentle-
man reported that they were peculiarly suited to
the Baltic service. Some delay, however, took place,
and it was not until the middle of September that
the Prussian Government agreed to the proposal of her
Majesty's Government, that instead of two corvettes an
old frigate should be given. In September there
was no very great necessity for the change, but
the Prussian Government contended that the faith
of the British Gove,-iment had been pledged to the
exchange, and therefore when the two gunboats arrive
in this country the Prussian Government would be al-
lowed to take the old frigate in exchange. (Hear.)
Sir G. TYLER asked what was the draught of these
gun-boats !
, . Sir J. GRAHAM did not know exactly, but lie was
told 17 feet.

was to prevent the disembodiment of that portion of a
militia regiment which was not sent abroad.
Mr. S. HERBERT said there was nothing in the act
tending to such disembodiment.
Mr. BANKES thought that after that explanation the
noble lord might safely withdraw the clause.
Lord LOVAINE would not press it.
Mr. BANKES moved a proviso, to the effect that not
more than 15,000 militiamen should be sent abroad.
Lord PALMERSTON did not think it was likely that
so many a 515,000 would be required to be sent out, but he
thought it would be better not to fix any particular limit.
There appeared to he an apprehension, for which there was
no foundation, that the whole of the militia would be sent
abroad. No limit was fixed in the Militia Act of 1814.
Mr. BANKES said that a limit was fixed by that act;
and that the number was 30,000 ; and, as he wished to show
that the house was not less vigilant than the Parliament of
1814, he therefore proposed to fix a limit. (Laughter.)
The proviso was negatived.
Mr. FITZROY moved a clause, the object of which was
to make subalterns iu the militia of five years' standing
eligible to the rank of captain, without property qualifica-
tion.
Mr. H. HERBERT thought that a standing of three
years ought to be considered sufficient.
Mr. C. BRUCE thought that it would be better to with-
draw the clause.
Lord PALMERSTON said it should be borne in mind
that past service would be counted in the five years, and,
as there had only been 28 days' service in the first year, he
did not think that five years should bo considered too long
a probation.
Mr. J. G. SMYTII thought that some retiring allow-
ance ought to be made to subalterns in the militia.
Mr. BANKES thought that barracks not in the actual
occupation of the line ought to be placed at the disposal of
the militia. At Weymouth and Dorchester there were
such barracks.
Lord PALMERSTON said, that in making arrangement
with the Quartermaster-General for the quarters of the
militia, it had been his anxious desire to find barrack accom-
modation for them. But, unfortunately, at the conclusion
of the last war, many barracks were sold or pulied down,
or given up, and the amount of such accommodation now
in the country was very small indeed. His first object had
been to put into barracks the depots of those regiments
which were occupied in raising recruits for foreign service,
but when a few regiments of militia ware embodied, the
Government took care not to embody any that could not
be accommodated in barracks. But that could not be done
now. The barracks at Weymouth and Dorchester weie
designed for cavalry, and if they were altered for infantry
the expense would be verygreat, and the barrackswould be
disqualified for their original destination. However, that
matter was under the serious consideration of the Govern-
ment, who would do everything in their power for the sake
of discipline, and for other considerations, to provide the
militia as far as possible with barrack accommodation.
Col. ARCHDALL inquired whether county officers in
Ireland were eligible for commissions in the militia?
Lord PALMERSTON said that no one would bedeemed
eligible who had duties to perform incompatible with his
militia duties.
Col. SIBTHORP inquired whether colonels of militia
remaining at home would be superseded by those who acted
as colonels while the regiment was on foreign duty ?
Lord PALMERSTON replied in the negative. The rank
of those who held the position of full colonels, like the hon.
member, would bo in no respect affected, but would remain
just the same on the return of such members of the regi-
ment as had been serving abroad.
The bill then passed through committee, and was re-
ported, and ordered for second leading this day.
THE ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
Viscount DRUMLANRIG appeared at the bar, in the
uniform of the Comptroller of the Household, and rought
up her Majesty's gracious answer to the Address :A'!" Your
loyal and dutiful address has afforded me much gratifica-
tion, and I thank you for the assurance of your support to
those measures which I consider necessary for the vigorous
prosecution of the war, and which I trust, with your as-
sistance, and under the blessing of the Almighty, may lead
to the re-establishment of peace upon a sure and lasting
oundation."

FINANCIAL STATEMENT.
In reply to a question from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was not the intention of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make any financial
statement before the recess.
SLIGO BOROUGH.
Mr. WHITESIDE moved for a copy of the indictment
found at the late assizes for the county of Sligo against
Michael Gethin, Henry Simpson, and James Simpson,
directed by this house to be prosecuted for certain grave
offences by the Attorney-General for Ireland.
After a few words from Sir J. YOUNG, the motion was
withdrawn.
Mr. WHITESIDE obtained leave to bring in a bill to
amend the laws relating to juries in Ireland.
CLERGY RESERVES.
Mr. NAPIER moved for a _copy of the Clergy Reserves
Bill, now before the Canadian Parliament.
Ordered.