The Sun.
London, England, 1854-02-28 00:00:00

TICE SUN, LONDON, T'CrES-DAT EVEN-INGI:VEIIRIJARIt 28, 195'4.

the next fortnight arrangements would be made for the
conveyance of additional troops, doubling, that number ;
and, considering the call made upon the Admiralty to pro-
vide for the effective service of the navy, he thought the
house would admit that they had not at the same time
been idle in providing conveyance for the troops. (Cheers.)
With reseect to what had just fallen from the hon. gentle-
man, he begged to say that, if there was want of acco-
modation on merchant steamers for the conveyance of
soldiers, the accommodation was ten times worse on a war
steamer. In conclusion, he thanked both sides of the
house for the cordial and generous support they had
afforded the Government in passing the estimates. (Hear.)
Mr. PERCY made an inquiry respecting the applica-
tion of the smoke-consuming apparatus to Government
steamers.
Sir J. GRAHAM observed that the apparatus had been
under trial in the dockyards, but had not been applied to
government steamers ; and the result of the trial induced
'aim to believe that, though the apparatus was ff ce
nal in consuming smoke, it occasioned a much larger con-
, nmption of coal. (Hear, hear.)
inquired whether Admiralty
were SCOBELL
were not aware that there were some Russian men-of-war in
be
Austrian ports, and whether it would not be desi a 1
under such circumstances, to have an escort to accompany
our vessels conveying troops?
Sir J. GRAHAM said, it was true that three Russian
men-of-war were in the Adriatic, but he had great plea-
sure in telling the gallant officer that theyelvt7eat were not
also three
English men-of-war there—(cheers)—and,
if
were likewiseenough, two very powerful French vessels
flikewise
in
the Adriatic. Those three Russian men-o -war had been
in the outer harbour of Trieste ; but they were afterwards
hauled up within the inner mole, so that our men-of-war
could not get at them. (Laughter.)
The vote was agreed to.
ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
Mr. MONSELL, in submitting the ordnance estimates,
said he should endeavour, as shortly as he could, to explain
the reasons for the increase in the different votes ; and he
thought he should be able to satisfy the house that some,
at least, of that increase would leave for future years a
permanent annual saving. Upon the first vote, the in-
crease of the Royal Artillery was 53,093/. ; the Engineers,
20,4611. ; and the increased recruiting necessary for the
addition to the forces, 20,1671. It would be hardly neces.
sary for him at present, after the statements made by his
right hon. friends who had preceded him, to give any rea-
son for this increase ; but he thought he would be justified
in giving very shortly a statement of the condition in
which the artillery force now was. He was happy to say
that the schools, which for several years had beau pro-
gressively increasing, were admirably regulated. The
Royal Military Repository had now in it a class of*i4 non-
commissioned officers, who, besides acquiring a know-
ledge of the use and transport of military machines, were
taught geometry, mensuration, and all those other studies
which were necessary to the discharge of their duties.
The Royal Artillery Institution, which was an institution
of more recent foundation, had this year been opened, and
already it had conferred very great advantages indeed in
the way of a thorough system of education upon the offi-
cers of the artillery force. So great was the interest taken
in this establishment that the annual subscriptions on the
lead of the officers themselves, which were last year 1531.,
had risen this year to 4201. A course of lectures was about
to commence upon those subjects which were the most use-
ful for the officers of the artillery to be acquainted with—
military carriages, polytechnics, &c.—and in addition to
this Lord Raglan, the Master-General of the Ordnance, last
year, for the first time, established a class of young men
who had just received their commissions, and sent them
to the continent with an experienced officer to visit the
best fortifications upon the continent, so that they might
become acquainted with those improvements in the sciences
connected with the artillery which were likely to render
them most efficient in the discharge of their duties. He
did not know if it had ever occurred to any gentleman
here to compare the state of the artillery force now about
to leave these shores for the East, and the condition of
that force which, under the late Duke of Wellington, and
amounting to about the same number, quitted these shores
for the Tagus in 1808. He thought nothing could be more
remarkable or more satisfactory than such a comparison.
In every singular particular the greatest possible improve-
ment was manifest. In the first place, instead of the small
howitzers of 4 2-sths and 5i inches, the howitzers now
sent out are 12 and 24 pounders, longer, heavier, more
effective, and of the best possible description. In the ord-
nance in 1808, in each of the batteries there were three
kinds or different sorts of guns used, which caused
great confusion in the supply and expenditure of ammuni-
tion. At present there are only two kinds in use, and the
system adopted is very simple and uniform. In 1803 civil
artificers accompanied the field batteries, and were found
most unserviceable and troublesome ; but now, instead of
civil artificers, military artificers form a component part
of every troop. At the former period there were no in-
structions for exercise, and every captain used his own
discretion ; at the present time the most clear and precise
instructions are laid down, and are in the hands of every
artillery officer, the effect of which has be n to secure a
perfect uniformity in the execution of all duties committed
to them. The code of finance regulations was not settled
in 1808, from which many hardships arose ; but now the
finance regulations are in the hands of every commanding
officer. Perhaps one of the most striking contrasts between
the two forces was in the sort of horses sent out. Any gentle-
man who would refer to the despatches of the Duke of Wel-
lington would find that the horses which accompanied the
artillery in 1808 were very inefficient, and were described
by Colonel Hardinge as a set of broken-down Irish horses,
taken from the Irish commissariat. They were utterly
useless when they came into action, and their inefficiency
frequently necessitated the leaving behind of guns at a
time when their services were most important. The ar-
tillery force about to leave our shores would have 1,000
horses in the highest possible condition and order. Then
with regard to pontooning, any gentleman who had at all
studied the history of the Peninsular War would be aware
that the difficulties occasioned by a deficiency of pontoons
were remarkable. He believed it was only the year before
the expedition he was now referring to, that in South
America our forces were stopped for several days by a
trench eight or nine feet wide, on account of the absence
of pontoons. A sufficient number of pontoons would start
with our forces now, and they would be altogether in the
highest possible efficiency. He might mention many more
particulars to the house, but he would not weary it by
going any further into the subject. He had, however,
thought it of importance to point out the greatly increased
state of efficiency of the artillery force, which everybody
knew was the most important arm at the disposal of any
country in a time of war. He would proceed next to the
increase in Vote 2 on the commissariat supplies, the greater
part of which increase was occasioned by the extraordinary
rise in the price of forage and other articles. The increase
of price in that vote alone amounted to 158,000/. In the
barrack supplies which were necessary this year he took an
increased quantity on account of a miscalculation last
year; 35,2981. was the increase occasioned by the increase
of price; and the increase of 32,000/., was for the increase
necessary to be made to the number of stores. Upon Vote
3, for the Ordnance-office, there was a decrease. The
Treasury commit-tee, which sat upon the Ordnance and in-
vestigated most minutely the whole of the proceedings car-
ried on and the payment of the officers employed, state that
several of them are most inadequately paid, and, instead
of a reduction, he was happy ,to say they recommended
several of the payments to be increased. Upon Vote 4, the
salaries, allowances, and contingencies in establishments in
the United Kingdom and colonies, there was a decrease of
somewhere about 10,0001. The decrease in the colonies was
very large, and was likely to be a permanent decrease, as
many of the establishments which had been decreased in
the West Indies, Canada, and other places, were not likely
to be again augmented. Upon Vote 5, the wages of arti-
ficers, there was an increase of upwards of 20,0001., alto-
gether occasioned by the increase of wages rendered neces-
sary in the Royal carriage and other departments, through
the anxiety to provide an additional number of carriages
for the ships now fitting out for the Baltic fleet and a
change in the batteries of the Royal Artillery. The next
vote was for stores, and there was an increase upon it
amounting in the whole to 207,855/. Ot this sum the in-
crease occasioned by the new machinery which it was pro-
posed to erect at Woolwich and in its neighbourhood, in-
cluding the gun factory, upon which he should have to
say a few words hereafter, amounted to 138,000/. Deduct-
ing that 138,0001. from 267,000/., 129,0001. remained, of
which 79,0001. was for increase in price, leaving 56,009/.
only to be accounted for. 25,600/. of that sum was on
account of small arms, 6,8271. for gunpowder received on
account of the equipments of frigates of the navy ; and
there was another item for the carriages of the artillery,
which had already been referred to. The next vote, for
works, buildings, and repairs at home and abroad, was
902,821/. ; and of that sum 336,7511. was required for for-
tifications and other works already sanctioned by Parlia-
ment ; and 263,637/. was for ordinary and current ex-
penses. Now, that 269,637/. for ordinary and current ex-
penses was an increase upon the same item in last year's
estimates of somewhere about 40,0001, and ho thought
it right to mention to the house that that increase
was mainly occasioned by the incidental items having
been in no instance this year reduced. It had been
considered expedient to pursue that course, though the
system had been usually adopted of reducing every
year the incidental items sent in to the different sta-
tions throughout the country, amounting to some
25,0001. At the end of the year it was found impossible
without suffering serious injury, to take away this surplus,
and applications had then to be made to the Treasury to
allow the money to be given from some unexhausted sur-
plus, so that the apparent reduction at the beginning of
the year was no real reduction at all. Of the remaining
increase in this vote there was an item of 100,0001. for the
purchase of land at Aldershott for a camp, which was to be
immediately enclosed. The ground had been purchased at
a very moderate rate, at sums varying from 10/, to 12/. an
'e, and at any future time it would be quite possible to
realise any idea of the house with regard to the formation
of a ca.._
:up. The next item he had to allude to was one of
for a rac •
shortly fa,
practice range at Woolwich, and he had
The
ted the other day, in answer to the hon. baronet
TherusenlZei for Westminster, the reasons for that vote.
wich, wheeZei',l for many years a practice range at Wool-
featly well until believed, had answered every purpose per-
when the
useof some 12 or 14 years ago. At that period,
largely increase7tani upon the Thames had become so
quence of the thenear, range was found unsafe in cense-
it was perfectly ease t. vessels continually passing. As
shonld have constant of
e, ial, however, that the artillery force
that that arm of the practice, it was of the last importance
ossible. He thoughtcn should be preserved in every
way, p
the, house would agree with him
that no vote he had to pro,
since to the service than tbiee was really of greater import-
be more cheerfully acquieece,dained he believed none would
was reured for the Abroad a sum of 2,300/.
phaloniqa,i which woulderection of abe the m garrison hospital at Ce-
eans of effecting
saving of 190/., now paid. The increased an annual
required at Malta would entail an ex accommodation
7,0001., and a sum of 10,000/. weal. tenditure of about
improvement of the defences of St. ifeeigenie red for the
thought proper, however, merely to ask for 2,501. thislt was
3,000/. would be required for additions and alterations
e saat
tions were more imperatively required ; for absolutely the
.
cadets at Woolwich were obliged to sleep two or three in
a room, and they had no place whatever to study in. By
the proposed alterations every one of the 40 cadets 'would
be provided with a separate room. A sum of 7,0001. or
8,0001. would also be required for increased hospital ac-
commodation, drainage at various stations, gas, &e. !Upon
Vote 8, for the Ordnance surveys of the kingdom, 25,0001.
additional was taken for the ordinary survey, and he might
now me ntion the precise position of this matter with re-
gard to the scale of the survey as it now stood. The house
would, perhaps, be aware, on the authority of the Duke of
Wellington, that the Irish scale was adopted in Great
Pritain. It had been found to answer el:ceedingly well in
Ittland, but in Scotland a
ear or two ago a strong feel-
ing,arose against it —it Was either too large or too small—
AhLe Oerieved it was considered too
large.
During last year
e
lemetion was submitted by the Treasury to the most
scale scienti* in the count men
tutad be ry, who generally 0
thoueht the
t•s larger. It was now proposed by the Trea-
slu
ry submit the question agtsin foe the tit • -
iG

tific men, and again to require them to state what the pre-
cise size of the scale should be, whether 20, 24, or 26
inches. Upon Vote 6, he had already mentioned that
there was a sum of 138,0001, for machinery, and that he
should return to the subject, as it was possible that, with
regard to some portion of the vote, there might be some
difference of opinion. In the first instance, he asked the
house to consider the two items he proposed to take for
the improvement of the machinery of the Royal carriage
department and of the Royal laboratory at Woolwich,
amounting together to 138,0001. Those gentlemen who
had looked into the estimates of this year would be aware
of the enormous sums paid in wages in these establish-
ments amounting, he thought, to somewhere about
75,0001. He was sorry to say that the Royal laboratory
was at present considered in the light of a manufactory ,
in an extremely primitive state. (Hear.) The rooms in
it were so small that it was impossible to have any effec-
tive superintendence over the workmen in order to see
that they attended to and conducted their work pro-
perly. It was of the utmost importance that in any
manufactory the order of manufacture should be consecu-
tive, that when a part of anything was manufactured, it
should not be requisite to have it moved first in one direc-
tion, and then in another. At present that simple rule was
not attended to, and on account of the insufficient arrange-
ments there were considerable difficulties, particularly at
the present moment, in making this department keep pace
with the demands of the service. He would ask the house
to consider what the necessary effect of this was. He had
already stated that on account of the present position of
the department he referred to, it was difficult for it to
keep up with the present requirements. The consequence
was that the ordnance department was required to keep
large stores in hand in a time of peace, in order that, not
having the means of producing largely at any given period,
it should be able to supply the wants of the service at a
time when any great call might be made upon it. It was
thus necessary to keep large stores in hand, and the result
frequently was that a great number of the articles kept in
store became obsolete, and, in addition, carriages became
rotten and many things utterly useless. All these took up
room, though, for the reasons he had described, without
costing an enormous sum to the country. Many of these
carriages could not possibly bo good for anything except
firewood ; consequently, in an age of invention like this,
when different discoveries so soon became absolete, it was
necessary in any establishment for warlike stores to arrange
it in such a manner that at any given time the stores could
be rapidly reduced. At the present moment these two de.
partments—the Royal' Carriage Department, which pro-
duced all the gun carriages, and the Royal Laboratory
which produced all our projectiles of war—expended in
wages at least 75,000/. ; at least, that was the sum
put down in this estimate, though he should deceive
the house if he were not to tell them that he pro-
bably might have to call on for a further vote. The
new machinery would cost from 85,0001. to 90,0001.
which at 3 per cent. represented 3,0001. ; and he was in•
formed by the persons most competent to judge—by officers
of the highest experience and ability—that this expendi-
ture would reduce the amount spent in wages at least one-
half. if not more ; so that a saving of 37,500/. annually
would he effected by the expenditure of a sum the interest
of which amounted to about 3,0001. In the Royal Car-
riage Department, which, owing to the efforts of Colonel
Coote, whose loss they had this year to deplore, was in a
more advanced state than the Royal Laboratory, there had
been effected in this manner a saving of labour, as calcu-
lated on a comparison of the years 1844 and 1854, to the
extent of at least one-sixth, only 895 men being now needed
where formerly 1,094 men must have been employed. It
was clear, therefore, that the course which they proposed
to adopt would be a great saving in the annual expendi-
ture of the Ordnance, and it would prevent the necessity
of keeping so large a stock on hand, and in every way con-
for the greatest benefits on the contrary. The next sum
was probably one on which there would be more conten-
tion—it was the sum of 100,0001. for the erection of a gun
factory. He begged the house to understand that it was
not proposed to multiply Government factories —in fact,
two Government factories were to be discontinued. At
present Government had an establishment at Birmingham,
which this year cost 5,0941. and one at Enfield, which
cost 7,3831. It was proposed to get rid of these two fac-
tories—each of them, from their position, could probably
be disposed of very profitably—and in their place to erect
a gun factory somewhere in the neighbourhood of Wool-
wich. The Board of Ordnance had but one thing to con-
sider, and that was to get the best arm at the cheapest
rate. (Hear, hear.) That, of course, was the only conside-
ration which could weigh with them, but at the same time
ho should be very sorry that it should be supposed that he
was at all indifferent to the position of the gunmakers who
seemed to consider themselves aggrieved by what was about
to be done. The question had been forced on the considera-
tion of the board at the time of the first introduction ofthe
Minie rifle into our service. When the hoard was calle
on to produce Minierifles sufficientforthe whole army, they
would have been neglecting their duty if they had not
taken in consideration the system which had prevailed up
to that time, whether it had worked well, and whether, on
the whole, it was calculated efficiently to supply the wants
of the service. Two gentlemen of great experience and
ability proceeded to Birmingham and other places where
guns were manufactured. They reported the gun trade to
be—

" Altogether in a very lamentable state, and far behind any
other trade to which it can be compare. With the exception
of the barrel of the musket, they found the greater portion
produced by hand-labour alone. At the bayonet works
which they visited hardly any machinery worthy of the name
is employed, and, consequently, the expense of a bayonet is
considerably more than double what it may be expected to be
made by machinery."

For the last 10 years the Board of Ordnance had been en-
gaged in a struggle with the gunmakers. He would not
deny that there might be faults on both sides, but ho be-
lieved he could show positively that on the side of the gun-
makers there were very .considerable faults. The system
pursued by the Board of Ordnance was fully considered by
a committee of that house which sat in the year 1849,
from whose report the following was an extract :

" Your committee made some inquiries into the mode of
contracting for muskets, with a view of ascertaining whether
any reduction could. be made in their cost without endanger-
ing the efficiency of the weapon supplied. Upon this point
conflicting opinions will be found in the evidence. The
weight of the musket is in great measure regulated by the
length and calibre of the barrel. These points have been de-
cided by the highest military authority, and this decision
your committee suppose was made on sufficient reasons. Ob-
jections which have been urged against the present rigid sys-
tem of inspection do not appear to rest on any valid grounds.
It is the duty of the Board of Ordnance to take every securif-
that the muskets supplied shall conform to the ap-
proved, and your committee have not }-...t that any
_.,rs or other officers
favouritism has been imputed to the v;--

employed in this service."
In the year 1851 t040__... were called for for what was then
called the Miss, musket, and on the 26th of June, 1852,
the foil_ ..Lug petition was received from the military gun-
lost makers:—
" Consequences to be deplored have resulted from this state
of things, for the men have from time to time embraced re-
munerative employment, as, for instance, great numbers are
employed upon revolving pistols; and at this present juncture
we could not rely upon more than 20, or at most 30 efficient
workmen to execute your order; and we are sorry to say that
the difficulties that surround us absolutely deter us from un-
dertaking to supply a specified quantity, and it would bo im-
possible to supply the quantity required."
The difficulties with regard to the production of this mus-
ket were so great that it was nearly two years after the or-
der was given that the whole of it was supplied. During
the last year there had been an order given for 2,000 car-
bines for the artillery, and, though the first steps were
taken as far back as the beginning of March, the whole of
that order had not been received at this moment. At the
beginning of last year 20,000 new Minie rifles were ordered;
tenders were called in—not called from Londonor Binning-
' ham or any one particular place—but from all England,
Scotland, or Ireland ; those received being unsatisfactory,
were declined, and new tenders advertised for in the pa-
pers. This failed to excite any more competition, and Sir
T. Hastings, the Controller of the Stores, a gentleman of
the highest intelligence and experience, and one who was
considered by all the gunmakers as one of the most just
and fair officers, went down to Birmingham, and, having
succeeded in making better terms, ordered 20,000 muskets
t!icre. This was on the 26th Oct., 1853, and since then
they had received from the gunmakers numbers of letters
alleging various reasons for the non-completion of this or-
der. With some it was a general strike of the workmen—
others had been unable to get rod makers, others had made
miscalculations of other descriptions, but with almost
all, for one reason or other, there was a total im-
possibility of doing the work. There was one part
of the present system which the board had to con-
sider; and they had also to consider the price for which
the musket could be made. The task they had before them
was to provide a new musket for the whole of the army—
including artillery, marines, and coastguard, the price of
which at present would be something under 31. a-piece.
They were strongly warned by many of the ablest officers
in the army that it was not safe for the country to rely
upon the existing system, and they turned their attention
in the first place to the system which prevailed in the
united States. There they found that the Government
had in its hands three gun factories capable of turning out
500 rifle muskets a-day at 375. a-piece. They found also
an ample amount of muskets in store, and the latest im
provements of machinery, by means of which the different
parts of the musket were made with such accuracy that the
parts of one musket fitted into the parts of any other in-
discriminately. He had been told that bags of the differ-
ent materials of which muskets were composed were s sat
to Mexico, and that, being opened on their arrival there,
the parts were taken out promiscuously and fitted into each
other with as much nicety as if each had been made speci-
ally for the other. That he believed was what could not
be said of two of Purday's rifle muskets out of the same
case. But there was also another consideration. In 1811
the percussion arm was introduced into our service, and,
all the old flint muskets being thus rendered useless- for
the attempt to alter them was never successful—the ex-
pense, of course, was enormous. But did they think that
in this age of rapid progress the musket which they were
now about to introduce would retain for many years the
pre-eminence which it now enjoyed? And was it not ad-
visable on that account to devise some means which would
render it unnecessary to retain such an inordinate number
of muskets in store, and avoid the risk of the country
being put to a similar expense as that which was incurred
when the percussion musket came into use ? (Hear.)
When the Duke of Wellington was Master-General of the
Ordnance, and Lord Harclinge Clerk of the Ordnance,
they decided that the number of muskets to be kept in
store should be 457,000; but, without going to that enor-
mous number, it was quite clear that with the pre-
sent amount of production at our disposal, 300,000
was a sufficient store to keep up, putting the
requirement of the colonies on one side. With a power,
however, of producing 500 muskets a day, we should mani-
festly be in a better pesition with 100,000 muskets in store
than we had been before with 300,000, avoiding the risk
of great loss in future, besides saving the capital repre-
sented by the difference in the two numbers. The cost of
this factory, upon the most minute calculations which
could be made, was 150,0001. It should be observed that
the factory would produce, not only muskets, but bayonets
also. He had said that he would ask the committee to
consider the financial effects of the measure he proposed.
For the line there would be required 110,000 Minie mus-
kets ; for the artillery, 10,000 ; for the marines, 15,000 ;
and for the militia, 50,000 ; the number for store being
300,000, or, altogether, 485,000, exclusive of the colonies
and the East India Company. 455,000 muskets, at 31.
each, would cost 1,455,0001.; but the highest authorities
believed that the musket might be produced for P. 10s.
He had stated that the price for which the musket was
produced in the United States was 37;4. each ; but, consi-
dering the improvements which it was believed by those
best competent to form an opinion on the subject—by those
who were engaged in designs for the factory--could be
made on the American machinery, he was prepared to ex-
press the belief that the musket could bo produced at the
proposed factory for 30s. (Hear.) Taking this estimate,
the saving that would be effected upon the previous estimate
he had stated, of 31, each, would be 727,5001. But further,
he had mentioned that by means of the proposed system
the store, in tiwo of peace, could be diminished by 200,000

the difference resulting from which would represent a capi-
tal of 600,0001. in favour of the public, the interest upon
which would be a considerable and permanent saving. All
this advantage would be realised by the outlay of 150,0001.,
from which, moreover, was to be deducted whatever the
present establishments at Birmingham and Enfield might
produce when sold. (Hear.) All these Minie rifles must
have new bayonets; 485,000 bayonets at 7s. 6d., the ordi-
nary price, would cost 181,8751.; but it was calculated that
at the factory they could be produced for ls. 6d. each,
which would amount to only 36,3751., or a difference in fa-
vour of the public, by means of the factory, of not less than
145,5001. (Hear, hear.) When, upon the authority of Mr.
Anderson, the same gentleman who had effected such enor
mous savings in the royal carriage department, he could
show the committee that, by the expenditure of the pro-
posed 150,0001., such a large amount of arms could be pro-
duced at such a vast reduction of cost, he felt that Lord
Raglan was, indeed, perfectly right in considering the mat-
ter now before the committee as one of the very highest
importance to the public service, as pre-eminently condu-
cive to the permanent safety and well-being of the coun-
try. Under these circumstances, he hoped the committee
would pass this vote unanimously. (Hear.) He had stated
that he did not conceive the proposed arrangement would
do the injury to the gun trade of this country which that
trade anticipated. Let it be borne in mind that our gun
trade was at present in a very low condition, whereas that
of the United States was in a very advanced state. In the
report which was presented to the house the other day,
with regard to the machinery department of the United
States Great Exhibition, it was stated that the gun trade
of America was in a very high condition, and there seemed
every reason to fear that, unless our gun trade became im-
mensely improved, the whole trade would be transferred
to the United States. Under such circumstances, to have
a really good machinery fur the construction of guns in-
troduced to the observation of the gunmakers of England,
whether by Government or by individuals, could not be
other than a public benefit. (Hear.) How stood the gun
trade of England now ? In 1851 we exported 247,226 mus-
kets ' • in 1853 the number had fallen to 238,767. But now,
turn to pistols. In 1851 we exported 5,333 pistols ; in
1853 we exported 22,235 pistols, or more than treble the
number we exported in 1851. (Hear.) How had this
happened ? Why, because Colonel Colt had introduced
among us this very system of machinery, by means of
which, producing pistols of admirable quality at a cheap
rate, we had been enabled to effect so largely increased a
demand for our pistols—surely a benefit to the gnu trade
of the country, which, with regard to muskets, had under-
gone deterioration. It was his opinion, that by the intro-
duction, in like manner, of improvements in the construc-
tion of muskets, the Government would be benefiting
our gun trade far. more than the stoppage of the
intermittent Government contracts would injure it; for
those improvements would continue, and enlarge for the
trade the whole market of Europe. (Hear, hear.) He
trusted that he had now satisfied the committee, and that
he should satisfy the deputation who had waited on him
from the gunmakers, that the proposal he had made as to
a Government factory would largely benefit the public,
without sacrificing the permanent interests of the small
number of persons whom the deputation represented.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman then moved that
19,266 men be voted for the Ordnance department for the
service of the year.
Mr. MUNTZ said that the hon. gentleman had said a
good deal that was perfectly correct, but ho had also
omitted to mention much that would have been equally
correct. The great cause of all the complaints on the part
of the Ordnance as against the Birmingham manufacturers
had been the Minie rifle, which, as being a weapon that
the manufacturers had only just become acquainted with,
the Ordnance officers themselves knowing very little more
about it than the manufacturers, necessarily occasioned
delays and difficulties in the commencement of its manu-
facture. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman talked of making
for 30s. a gun that cost in the ordinary way 31., but there
still remained the question as to the quality of the article.
As to the competency of the Birmingham factories to pro-
duce as many guns as were wanted, let the manufacturers
have consecutive orders, and they would execute them to
the largest required amount. (Hear, hear.) Another
great cause of delay was the inconvenience with which the
manufacturers had to contend from the way in which the
tenders were given out, a number of them being issued at
the same time to different manufacturers, and no new
ones sent out until all the former ones had been completed,
so that often many of the manufacturers who had disposed
of their part of the tender were at a stand-still for work.
(Hear, hear.) His firm opinion was that there was no
difficulty whatever to procure any amount of arms that
were required, and that without going to America, or
any other country for them than our own. (Hear, hear.)
He suggested that the vote relative to this matter should
be suspended for two months, with which time he would
undertake to give ample proof to the house that
our manufacturers were fully able to produce any
amount of arms that might be considered requisite within
the required time ; and, if he could not within such time
produce such proof, he would offer no further opposition
to the suggestion of Government. He thought it would
be the greatest folly to rush into erecting a mill in the way
recommended, and he felt convinced that, even if such a
mill were allowed to be made, no arms would be got oat
of it for at least two years ; and, in his opinion, nothing
at all would be gained by it, except an additional and a
useless expense. (Ch:ers.)
The CHAIRMAN reminded the hon. member for Bir-
mingham that the question now before the house was, not
as to the expediency of establishing a mill, but the esti-
mates as to the number of men. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel DUNNE could bear testimony to the efficiency
of the artillery troops, which be considered to be equal to
any artillery in Europe. He thought the improvements
contemplated with reference to the practice at Woolwich
most advantageous, as the present grounds were certainly
not sufficient for field guns, for which, if a proper range could
be obtained it would be of the greatest service to the corps.
He considered that the question as to the manufacture of
small arms was one of the highest importance, and one
which ought not to be lightly or hastily disposed of. He
should like also to see the improvements suggested carried
out in the laboratory, inasmuch as he believed them to be
necessary ; and nothing Would please him more than to
see the present estimates framed upon a basis at op,e;
efficient and perfect, and such as was not lonly
but necessary in a time of emergency like the °seau:
Mr. WILLIAMS could not heln the very large
increase in the number of la the ordnance corps and
departments, which
ctcou .ne year, immediately preceding
1845 amounted-`y to abova 1,000 or 8,000 in 1845, to
e
present year, according to the proposed
e 4
9,f; 000iLebs.:
(Hear, bear.) He thought the
charge of 8,5001. for the servants of the officers in the En-
gineers a very large sum, and also the amount of 120,0001.
fur additional aidand allowance one thatwasoutof all pro-
portion. He should be very glad to see the improve-
ments which had been spoken of carried out i • but at the
same time it was necessary that the house should use the
greatest care in voting these estimates.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was, that a sum of 902,8171. be granted
for the pay, allowance, and contingency of 19,266 officers
and men composing the Ordnance military corps.
Mr. DRUMMOND said, as the subject of great coats
had been mentioned, and as everybody followed French
fashions now-a-days he begged to point out—while ex-
pressing his satisfaction at the more comfortable clothing
which they were going to give the troops—a very com-
mendable custom that prevailed in the French army. In
every sentry-box in France there was a large cloak, in ad-
dition to the great coat of the soldier, and the use of this
cloak was considered by the medical men of France to be
of great advantage to the men. (Hear.) This was a mat-
ter well worth consideration. He must say that he cor-
dially concurred in the proposal that the system of clothing
by the colonels should be altogether abolished. (Hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
On 557,1761. being proposed for commissariat or bar-
racks supply,
Colonel GILPIN called attention to the miserable ac-
commodation given in barracks to married soldiers. The
wives of soldiers were not permitted to live in the barracks
unless they had certificates of respectability, and when re-
spectable women were thus introduced, it was exceedingly
wrong to give them the sort of accommodation they now
had in the midst of 20 or 30, or, as he had seen the other
clay, GO men. He hoped the attention of the hon. member
for Limerick would be turned to the case of these unfortu-
nate women, and that some better arrangement would be
adopted. ( Hear.)
Sir W. CLAY likewise referred to the disgraceful accom-
modation given to married women in barracks, and pointed
out the want of proper ventilation, which might for a very
small sum be rectified in any barrack in the kingdom, also
the want of adequate library accommodation, the soldiers
from want of reading-rooms being compelled to read in the
dining-hall, or their bedrooms, or else take refuge in the can-
teen. He likewise pointed out the necessity that existed for
providing washing-rooms and decent utensils to wash in
fur the soldiers. All these were of importance to the
health and comfort of the soldier, and, though apparently
trifling, were well worthy the attention of the Govern-
ment. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MONSELL sympathised with the kind wishes which
had been expressed for the comfort of the soldiers, but he
was sure hon. gentlemen must see how difficult it was to
carry out the views which had been put forth. In all the
new barracks the accommodation for married women had
been much improved, as, indeed, were the comforts of the
soldier generally ; but, in the case of the old barracks,
great difficulty was experienced in making the required
alterations.
Colonel GILPIN suggested that, as in the case of the
colour-sergeants, partitions might be put up for the benefit
of married soldiers.
Lord SEYMOUR said, it would appear that the house
had either been niggardly in supplying the wants of the
soldier, or that the money which it voted had been very
ill-spent. It was shown before the Committee on the Ord-
nance Estimates that great improvements had of late years
taken place in the accommodations of the soldier. It was
there stated that the accommodation had increased to that
extent that the cost of supplying it for the soldiers in bar-1
racks amounted to 1001. a man. Now, if that was so, the
soldier should certainly be very, well supplied and well
lodged. (Hear, hear.) They had been told that the Rol-
diers had no means of washing themselves in barracks, but 1
he remembered that a large sum was voted for this very
purpose when the subject of lavatories was brought for-
ward by Lord Panmure, and there was a sum taken every
year for washing in the new barracks, so that, so far from
grudging good accommodation to the soldiers, the had been
most liberal on their behalf. (Hear.) No blame, there-
fore, attached to that house, though he was unable to say
how the accommodation had been carried out by the proper
officers. (Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. S. lirrox,
The vote was agreed to, as were the following :
73,719/. salaries and contingencies of the Ordnance-office,
Pal l-mall.
281,6451., salaries and contingencies of establishments in
the United Kingdom and the colonies.
162,3341., wages of artificers, labourers, and. others, at
the several establishments in the United Kingdom and
colonies.

vv
On the vote of 639,5521. for Ordnance stores for land
and sea service. _ _

_
Mr. MUNTZ suggested the postponement of this vote.
Mr. MONSELL said, that a postponement was impos-
sible.
Mr. NEWDEGATE wished, in reference to that portion
of this vote which was for machinery and buildings for the
manufacture of small arms, to call the attention of the
house to a document which was signed by several of the
most respectable firms in Birmingham. Those who had
signed this document on behalf of the gun trade undertook,
if the Board of Ordnance would enter into a contract, to
supply 150,000 rifle muskets within eighteen months, in
addition to the orders already in course of execution. Now
if the Government proclaimed to the gun trade that they
were to be cast aside, then it could not be expected that
they would make the exertions which they tad done on
former occasions. It might be said that this document was
very well so far as it went, but that there was no guaran-
tee that its promises could be carried out. Now, from a
paper which had been published, it appeared that from
the year 1845 to 1849 the annual number of muskets
turned out was 274,000. The consequence of the present
system was this—that foreign soldiers, who were armed
froth Birmingham, we better Aupplie4l than thou in our

own army. Much of the present feeling against Birming-
ham grinmakers had arisen-from the conduct of the Messrs.
Lovell. Mr. Lovell, who presided at the establishment at
Enfield, had a son who was appointed inspector at Bir-
mingham, and this son, naturally perhaps desiring to raise
the importance of the place over which his father presi- 1
ded, had found fault with the arms furnished by Bir-
mingham houses where no blame justly attached. Mus-
kets had been returned as faulty which, upon being a
second time sent in, had been passed as correct. In
another instance 23,000 Minie rifles, which were furnished
by Birmingham, were crooked-sighted through the im-
proper conduct of the inspector. The real truth of the
matter Was, that the Ordnance Board for many years was
asleep, while the French Government were taking every
means, aided by scientific men, to improve their arms. A t
length the board awoke, ordered a large quantity of Minie
rifles, but was so imperfectly, or rather improperly se-
conded by its own officer that these rifles had actually to
be returned, and almost re-manufactured, before they
were fit for use. Now, however, that a more proper in-
spector was appointed, the Government ought to pause and
consider before going to the expense of a large establish-
ment, whether the existing manufacturers could not as
well or better supply their wants. If the hon. member
(Mr. Muntz) divided, he (Mr. Newdegate) should give him
his support.
Lord JOCELYN thought that the matter really before
the house was whether the present establishment could or
could not be consolidated and improved. That there was
room for improvement was manifest from the fact that,
after an improved rifle had been ordered, it was nearly
three years before the corps for which it had been ordered
were supplied with it. It appeared to him that the argu-
ment that had been used proved the advantage of having
but one estoblishment for the use of arms. And he believ-
ed that would enable them to get rid of the establishment.
(Laughter.) He thought so because it would be such a
stimulus to private enterprise that great improvements
would be effected. He should support the Government in
this vote.
Mr. MUNTZ observed that the Government had no ma-
nufactory now, all they had was a proof-house and a view-
house. Therefore, the effect would be just this : that Go-
vernment would take upon themselves the manufacture of
arms instead of their being manufactured at Birmingham.
The hon, gentleman said, American guns could be manu-
factured for 38s. ; but he could inform the hon. gentleman
that the same guns could be manufacturec in this country
for 20s. to 30s. ; but after all they were not Minie rifles.
Mr. GEACH said this was not entirely a question for
Birmingham, but whether the Government was to turn
manufacturer and put itself in competition with private
enterprise in a country where private enterprise had done
more than in any other country in the world.
The honourable gentleman, the Clerk of the Ordnance,
said it was necessary that Government should
take upon themselves to supply the arms, that they should
not depend on other parties to supply them, and he also
said it would be a pattern to the trade. Now, there was
no other Government that ha.d a manufacture to give them
a pattern, and he believed that if manufacturers depended
oa Government patterns they would not sit long in that
house, for a bankrupt was not entitled to sit in the house.
Nothing was more amusing to a manufacturer than to
walk through a Government establishment and to compare
it with his own, and at the same time to listen to the lau-
dations on the machinery, and to persons pointing out
what the manufacturers should do in order to be perfect.
The hon. gentleman had referred to a gentleman of scien-
tific acquirements who was to guide them. Why he (Mr.
Geach) was at a meeting of civil engineers months ago,
when this same gentleman - (cries of Name "—Mr. An-
derton, was speaking of the size of ships, and he advised
them not to have very large ships, saying they would go
slower, and only serve to stow away more fuel. Well,
within two months there was landed the Himalaya, and
the Government were now glad enough to avail them-
selves of the Himalaya to carry troops She was the largest
ship that was ever built, the most effective, and the most
economical. The hon. gentleman had had but little expe-
rience in the department in which he was placed, but he
was made to feel all the inconveniences of the want of
supply. Everything was reported to him to show the de-
ficiency, but there might be explanations which, if they
were reported to him at the same time, would put a dif-
ferent complexion on the matter. If they once got one of
these Government establishments, they would never hear
of any difficulty ; the officers and men would believe it
was all perfection. If Government had exhausted all the
means for procuring a supply from private manufacturers
there might be some excuse for asking for a sum to esta-
blish a Government manufactory to compete with a large
trade ; but they had not exhausted all those means. He
believed that if a merchant were to have on order for
10,000 stand of ernes hewould get them, where Government
by their system, had not been able to do so,
Mr. MONSELL thought the hon. gentleman who had
just sat down had misrepresented in several particulars the
proposarthat he made to the house. For instance, he had
spoken of Mr. Anderton, a gentleman with whom they
had nothing to do. The gentleman of whom he (Mr.
Monsell) spoke was Mr. Anderson. (A laugh.) Then the
hon. gentleman said if Government had this establishment
they would let the thing go on, and would declare it the
most admirable thing in the world. The hon. gentleman
might not have been in the house when he had the honour
of bringing forward a proposition to improve the laboratory
and carriage department at Woolwich. That showed that
the laudations of which the hon. gentleman spoke were
not all shared in by the Government. Upon the question
of the cheapest manner of doing the Government work no
hon. gentleman had addressed one word. The hon. mem-
ber for Birmingham asked him if the musket manufactured
in America was an Indian rifle. He did riot know, but it
was a celebrated rifle for the execution that it did. But
he altogether mistook him, for he (Mr. Monsell) reste4;:l
case on the American rifle costing the America
„" to that
went only 375., and he stated that •
ca'criTeture it for
our Government rnanufactorY
a better arm than
305., and that it wool "a as 3/ f
the case thu. 2.00' gepir. gur° 7
that which they ae-__taid r"— laud. •or. If that were
• not mean to main-
-1.0 A.. .I muted to the house. If an extraor-
tain
0.4 t
ere ~eTB c grounds for resisting the propo-
sition tre
Dore
emend bad been made to them for arms, and if
&lora was a necessity for providing for that demand with
the least possible delay, and they could show to the house
that they could save some 700,0001. or 800,000/. of the
public money, he thought the house would have had good
reason to find fault with them if they had not made the
proposition, and he thought the house would be to blame
if they did not adopt the proposition. With regard to
Mr. Lovell, he was informed that the statement now made
by the hon. member (Mr. Newdegate) was- made to Lord
Hardinge, when he was Master-General of the Ordnance.
That statement was considered by Lord Hardinge, and he
did not =ilea at the decision that the hon. gentleman did.
By the proposed system they would get rid of the system
which the hon. gentleman complained of. The advantages
of the proposed system might be seen in a striking manner
by those who would take the trouble of referring to the
opinion of Mr. Whyford, in which he showed that the
stock was made and the whole musket got up in 25
minutes and a half. It was not merely a ques-
tion of getting the best arm in the shortest time, but it was
a question involving moat material financial considerations.
By the course they suggested they would save a large sum
of money, and certainly the arm that would be produced
would be as perfect, if not better, than that produced at
Birmingham, and there would be the advantage that all
the different parts could be put in bags, and then taken
out and put together as exact as the machinery.
Lord SEYMOUR considered the question one of consi-
derable importance, and he wasisorry it had been some-
what prejudiced by being brought forward as a local ques-
tion connected with Birmingham. The questioneef govern-
ment manufactories had come under the consideration of
committees of that house. It was brought under the
consideration of the committee on naval estimates, mad
also the committee on the ordnance estimates ; and he be-
lieved he stated no more than was the opinion of several
members of the present Cabinet, when he said their general
opinion was that Government manufactories were not ad-
visable. It might be well, it was admitted, for Govern-
ment to have some small manufactories as a check on the
private producers, but no more than that. The general
system was to be by contract. As to the cheapness of Go-
vernment manufacture, was there any man in the house
who believed it? (Hear.) Would any member of the
Cabinet get up and say he believed in the cheapness of Go-
vernment manufactories? The only excuse for a Govern-
ment manufactory was, that they might get a good article;
they might be certain of the article, anti, therefore, they
paid a great deal more to get it. Now, they were told by
the Clerk to the Ordnance that they were to establish a
large manufactory for the supply of muskets for the army.
It was always the interest of Government to produce
largely, and therefore it was the interest of Government in
this case to produce a large quantity in a short time. An
establishment was therefore to be created capable of mak-
ing 300,000 muskets in a year. (An Hon. Member, 150,000)
Then, what was to become of the workmen when they had
produced this quantity ? They would have to keep up a
great establishment without any work. Why, they all
knew that if machinery was not kept going it was a great
loss. Therefore, the next reason would be, " now we
have got the machinery, let us create a store. We used
to have a store at the Tower, which was burned ; let us
have another." If it was for the present war the muskets
were required, he wanted to know when this establishment
would be at work ? Would the Clerk of Ordnance get up
and say he would undertake to produce 50,000 muskets
within two years ? If not, were they now looking forward
to and providing for some future war ? He told them that
improvements were now going on so rapidly that in four
or five years this musket would become obsolete. Then in
4 or 5' years their establishment would become obsolete.
He would, therefore, recommend the Government to post-
pone the proposal for a time ; and if the men refused to
work, or if there was anything unfair, he was sure the
house- would give them the means of establishing a menu-
factorY,
Colonel BOLDERO recommended the Government to
pursue a similar course to that which had been pursued
with regard to the manufacture of gunpowder • in which
case' the ordnance 'department had manufactured from
10,000 to 12,003 barrels of gunpowder, and employed
four firms to manufacture from 2,000 to 3,000 barrels
each. This would afford the greatest facility for increas-
ing the supply 'without incurring unnecessary expense.
(Cries of Divide.")
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, not-
withstanding the natural impatience of the committee at
that late hour (5 minutes past 12), he trusted the house
would allow him to say a few words. (Hear, hear.) Al-
though this was a vote on the ordnance estimates, and one,
therefore, for which his hon. friend (Mr. Monsell) was re-
sponsible, yet as the person immediately charged with the
care of the finances of the country, he should have been
deeply culpable had be allowed it to be proposed without
being entirely satisfied as to its propriety. The motives
which had induced the Government to adopt the proposal
were, in the first place, the extreme dearness of the arm
which was at present furnished to the forces ; in the
second place, the slowness with which that arm was
prepared ; and in the third place, the extreme uncertainty
of its manufacture. With respect to dearness, the pre-
sent cost of the rifle musket in this country was
31., whereas the cost of the rifle musket in America
was V. 17s. An hon. gentleman had cried down the
quality of the American arms ; but he did not think he
would be supported in that opinion. The lesson which
they had received from Col. Colt. a private American,
coming over to England to show Englishmen how to work
in metals, was most important. The remark of the noble
lord behind him (Lord Seymour), that the government
ought not to be manufacturers, was received with loud
cheers. (Cheers.) He concurred in that as a general prin-
ciple; but there were certain cases in which nobody doubted
that they ought to be manufacturers. Nobody doubted,
for example, that they ought to continue the manufacture
of gunpowder, by which he believed it had been shown on
good authority that they had saved the country half a
million. There were certain specialities in certain cases,
and the question whether the government should menu-
facture or not in a particular case, was not to bwsettled by
general dicta on the subject, but by the consideration of
those specialities. He had stated that the cost of a musket
at present was 3/. The responsible department assured him
that it could be manufactured for 30s. Economy, however,
was not the only question in the ease. There was the
question of sapidity; and whet set 4 the Orduenoe o>i tqllet

- • M.f i;

cPti4b.

point? "The board ordered tenders to be issued for 2,000
carbines on an improved pattern on the 11th March last.
Not one of those carbines has yet been received into store."
Again, they were discussing one of the finest instruments
that could be made—an instrument requiring the most
minute precision ; and they had been told that night by
the hon. member for Warwickshire, that it was impossible
to attain this by anything but machinery, as the inspector
of small arms in Warwickshire had blundered in his in-
spection. The question was, then, whether they should
continue to have guns intended for her Majesty's forces
made by the inferior and obsolete processes of hand labour,
or whether they should have applied to the manufacture
the economy and precision of machinery ? The question
was one between hand labour and machinery? Yt was ad-
mitted by the hon. member for Warwickshire that machi-
nery was,employed in America for the manufacture of
arms which in this country were made by hand labour.
Mr. NEWDEGATE explained that what he had said,
was that no machinery could be superior to the best hand
labour.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he con-
tended that the muskets ought to be made by machinery.
Experience ought not to be overlooked in this matter. In
former wars this country had been obliged to go to Liege
and other places for a supply of arms. (Hear, hear.) As
regarded the question of expense, he really could not have
believed without investigation that in a matter so compa-
ratively trivial as the providing of small arms for her Ma-
jesty's forces it was possible to effect a saving of 800,000/.
or 900,000/. ; but that was the case as- it stood on the esti-
mated difference between what they were now paying and
what they would have to pay under the new system. The
noble lord (Seym'ur) said they were going to make a pro-
vision for future wars. He was sorry to say that they
were making provision for a war which was now gathering
around them. (Hear.) The noble lord had asked most
properly when the factories would be in operation. They
would be in operation within 12 months, and the Govern-
ment hoped in the course of the next year to obtain from
it a full supply of arms. He must say that, if censure
were due to the Government or to the ordnance depart-
ment, it was not for having made the proposition now, but
for not having made it at an earlier period. They had
been told that they would draw together a great number
of manufacturers and have sudden and uncertain demands,
and they were asked what they would do with these manu-
facturers when the sudden and uncertain demands *eased.
Now, he invited the attention of the house to this point,
for it was the kernel of the whole case. The hon. member
for Warwickshire said that, in order to enable private
trade to discharge contracts, it was necessary that the con-
tracts should be continuous. He begged the committee to
remember these words. Now he wanted to know how they
could secure a continuity of supply on a demand for arms ?
He wanted to know whose duty it was to maintain eco-
nomy in the public expenditure? He wanted to know who
could undertake to keep that outlay down in a time of war,
when arms were largely required, much less in a time of
peace ? Certainly the House of Commons could have no
difficulty in answering the third of these questions. Well,
then, to secure economy in the supply of arms, whether in a
time of peace or in a time of war, you must have the power
of sudden expansion and rapidity of manufacture, the two
great objects which were involved in the proposition before
the committee. Government then wanted the power of
sudden expansion, and the power of producing with all
possible certainty a large amount of arms within a certain
space of time, which could not be done by pottering—(a
laugh)—with private traders employing only hand labour.
That past experience proved, for whereas they had ordered
2,000 carbines as far back as the 11th of last March, not
one of those carbines had been delivered in store up to this
very moment. But what was the case with regard to ma-
chinery ? Why it was the continuous supply that was
required; but, "Oh," said the opponents of this plan,
"if you employ machinery, you will not only require to
keep it constantly in operation, but you will have to keep
a large staff of labourers." Now the latter part of this ob-
jection applied certainly to the present system of private
trading, because there a large amount of skilled labour
had constantly to be kept on hand; but in the case of ma-
chinery it was entirely different. For there, instead of
requiring 90 per cent. of skilled labour, all that would be
necessary would be 10 per cent. of skilled labour and 90
per cent. of unskilled labour ; and, while a small staff
only of skilled labourers would have to be kept in constant
employment, the Government in a time of pressure would
equally have at its command all the unskilled labourers of
the community. Now that was the precise state of the
case ; there was no desire to oppose the private trader,
but there was a desire to promote economy, and to secure
an efficient supply of arms—two objects which the Govern-
ment were convinced this plan would accomplish, or they
never would have invited the. House of Commons to under-
take such an enterprise as that which was now proposed.
It would effect a large saving of public money, at the same
time place the country, not in a tolerable, but the best
possible position with regard to the supply of arms, and he
hoped therefore the House of Commons would not refuse
to back the Government in the performance of their duty
to the public. On the contrary, he trusted they would not
hesitate to give a decided vote in favour of the establish-
ment of a system, by which the country would obtsie
superior supply of arms at a much lower price and with
far greater certainty and more rapidity of delivery th,sig
they could possibly hope to attain under the existin
gnOtti
of things. Government, however, did not
had been
wiefc
to pronounce any decision upon the point
g information
t
rir
put in possession of the means of-e.-. 07. •
upon it, and there would I.,,,,position on their part
consideration of a select
)ose therefore, the Government
eommiti.e-
to refer the wbei
tutu t
Jae understanding that when the committee was ap-
Would hay, no ohi4oLion to postpone the vote for a month
;Milted it should sit from day to day until its investigation
was concluded, and in the meanwhile the Government
would upon their own responsibility undertake all the pre-
liminary proceedings necessary for the formation of such
an establishment as this vote contemplated.
Mr. MUNTZ said the right.hon. gentleman had certainly
made a most ingenious speech, but he had failed to alter or
grapple with the facts of the case., It seemed to him that
the right hon. gentleman knew nothing at all about the
subject. Hon. gentlemen opposite might cry " oh, oh,"
but did they know anything about it ? He believed they
did net. The right hon. gentleman had told them that it
was a question between machinery and labour; but it was
no such thing, and he would prove it. Did lion. gentlemen
know anything about a fowling piece—had they ever used
one—had they ever shot with one ? Well, then, a fowling
piece was the result of the combined labour of man and
machinery, and what the Government proposed to do by
this plan was to obtain a similar species of arms by the
aid of machinery alone. But they could not do it. Al-
-1 though, according to the right hon. gentleman's statement,
making a gun was like spinning cotton, you had only to put
the metal in at one end of the machinery, and the gun came
out of the other. But what did the right hon. gentle-
man know about such matters as gun making? Why no-
thing but what he obtained from his authority, the hon.
clerk of the ordnances who he really believed did not know
a gun from a pistol. (Roars of laughter.) It was said
these arms could be manufactured for 30s. each ; but the
house might rely upon it that the 30s. would become 505.,
as sure as the 100,000/. for the establishment of the manu-
factory would ultimately magnify itself into 500,000/.
(Hear.) He was therefore sorry that the right hon. gen-
tleman objected to his moderate proposal to delay the vote,
but ho trusted the committee would support Ihim in the
amendment he had ventured to propose. (Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
object to postpone the vote for a month, and having made
that announcement, the right hon. gentleman wont on to
read a passage from a report of the board of ordnance, by
which it appeared that during the late war this country
purchased no less than 293,000 stand of arms from foreign
manufacturers. (Hear.) •

Mr. A. PELLATT addressed thecommittee amidst much
uproar and impatience. He observed that a great deal had
been said by the trade of Birmingham, and he wished to
say a few words with regard to that of London. There
had been made in London during the last ten years, no less
than 514,376 small arms, which gave an average of some-
thing like 58,137 per annum, (Hear.) There were 1,900
workinen, and 18 houses, already engaged in the manufac-
ture of small arms in London ; and he understood that 8
or 10 of these houses had offered their services to the go-
vernment, but they had been rejected. (Hear.) *

Mr. SPOONER strongly recommended his hon. friends
to accept the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Now the manufactories had a right to expect that more
time would have been afforded them for inquiry ; but per-
haps a month would be sufficient to establish on which side
the justice of the ease rested. (Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. Mums,
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was not meant to bind down
the committee to sit every day ; but it was desirable that
they should sit de die in diem, in order that due deligence
might be used.
The vote was then withdrawn.

529,522 t. for ordnance stores.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS moved that the chairman should
report progress ; but after a remonstrance from Lord J.
RUSSELL, the vote was agreed to, and the house then re-
sumed.
Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice to move this day, that
the house should meet at two o'clock on Wednesday, and
then go on with the committee of supply.
CHURCH BUILDING ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
VALUATION (IRELAND) ACT AMENDMENT

SPORTING NOTES.

SAYINGS AT STRETFORD.

The information which I have gathered from th e
"Manchester men" respecting the Liverpool Steeple,
chase is scarcely sufficient to compensate me for th.e
trouble and fatigue of the long and tedious journey by
the night mail train. The betting fraternity here evi-
dently hold divided opinions respecting the two leading
favourites, Miss Mowbray and Bourton—the horse hav-
ing perhaps the largest number of supporters. His
warmest partizans declare, and with a good show of
reason too, that he is a stone better than when he was
defeated by Oscar at Warwick, and that he will " turn
the tables on his old opponents as sure as he is a horse."
The extra half-mile, however, will, I fancy, be tire
greatest drawback from Bourton's success. Besid es,
too, the character of- the ground at Aintree has been
rendered unusually severe. I am informed—whether
credibly or not I am unable to determine—that
at the desire of the Miss Mowbray party, the land Inas
in parts been ploughed a fresh, and that an increased
"stiffishness" has been given to the different leaps.
Last night, Miss Mowbray and Oscar were at Bir-
mingham, cn route to Aintree. Both are said to be in
the finest bloom of condition ; Oscar, in particular, is
greatly admired. To day, a growing disposition was
evinced to back him, and at 15 to 1 many investments
were made. This movement exercised a depressing
effect on Miss Mowbray, whose backers evidently
"doubted, yet doated," and appeared to let I dare not
wait upon I would. Indeed, respecting him and Miss
Mowbray much perplexity and uncertainty exists, and
some persons do not hesitate to declare that a double
game is being played with them.
Believing that the running will be regulated by fair
play, I do not feel inclined to alter my opinion respec -
ing the superiority of Miss Mowbray's chance. Should,
however, anything occur to prevent her success, Bourton
may achieve the victory. Spring, Bedford, and Crabbs
are the best of the outsiders, my opinion as to their re-
spective chances being in accordance with the order in
which I have set down their names.
It is somewhat difficul-, to indicate accurately the pro-
bable starters ; but, as Mr. Bucket would say, from in-
formation I have received, I am induced to believe
that the field will comprise the following horses :
Age st lb Age st lb
Peter Simple a 12 0 Spring 6 9 10
Bourton
Oscar
Miss Mowbray
Peter
Half-and-Half ... a 10 8 Cockcrow
Abd-el-Kader a 10 6 Labyrinth
Bedford (h
LaGazza Ladra... a 10 0 Timothy
Lady Arthur a 910 Squire of Mallon a 9 4
Maurice Daley
Star of England... a 9 10 Burnt'Sienna a 8 12
The doubtful starters are printed in italics.

The sport at Stretford requires no particular com-
ment. It was seemingly got up to afford the Manchester
men an opportunity for enjoying a half holiday. The
first race was decided at about twenty minutes pas
three, and the last not until nearly dusk.
Manchester, Monday Night.

A FRESH MAN.

ARRIVALS AT LIVERPOOL.

STEEPLECHASE.—Peter Simple, Bourton, Oscar, Miss
Mowbray, Peter, Half-and-Half, Bedford, La Gazza
Ladra, Maurice Daley', Cockcrow, Kilquade, Laby-
rinth, Comeaway, Crabbs, Burnt Sienna, Royalty,
Timothy, Faugh-a-Ballagh gelding, Spring, and Trout.
Abd-el-Kader is scraohed.
FOR OTHER RACES.—Alonzo, Juliet, Cripple, An-
dromache, Warwick, Songster, Yewtick, and Kilquade.

KIRKCALDY-

'EI. 25.

Here to-day we had a small supply of barley, which sold
quickly, and large supplies of wheat and oats, which sold
slowly. Prices of all were fully Is per qr. dearer than
last market day. Some fine parcels I's higher.
Wheat. Barley. Oats. I Beans.
1 First
Second
I 38s Od I
SOs Od I Os Od
Third s6s Od . 288 Od 24s Od I Os Od
Oatmeal, per bag of 2801bs imperial, 44s Od to 45s Od.

:ET.—FEB. 27.
ho close of the market :

COAL MARK
Prices of Coal per ton at tl
s. R. d.
Buddle W. Hartley "2 0 Longridge's Wit Ilartley2l 6
Carr's Hartley 2l 6 Old Adairs 19 0
Chester Main 19 6 Tanfield Moor Butes 20 0
Davison's West Hartley 21 6 West Hartley 22 0
Hasting's Hartley 22 0 Cowpen 25 0
Hartlepool West Hartley ,20 6,
Ships at market ...

I Sold. 64

SEABORNE MAILS,

(N signifies that the mails are sent from the General Post office
by the night—and M by the morning —dispatch.]

Day when rciade up From what When
COUN FRIES. in General Post- Port due 1n
Office, London.* Dispatched. England.
A.merica(bylirit.pack)N Every Friday .... Liverpool ... Each Ken.
America (by United Sts.
packet) .... ....N •• • Liverpool ...
America (by U. States
packet) ..........N • Southampto, Arrived
Australia (via South-
ampton) ..........MlMarch ..... Southamptot, Feb. 20
Ditto (via Marseilles) N,March 8 . Dover ...... Feb. 16
Ditto (via Cape of Good!
Hope) ...Nile!). 4
Africa (West Coast) .. /.03d of the month .. Plymouth .. March 6
Alexandria 9, 24, & 30 of m. Dover eb. 16
Alexandria ..........Ml4th & 20th of mon. Southampton eb. 90
Bahamas ........... al ! 17th of the month Southampton Feb 16
Belgium ............N, Daily D0ver...... Daily
Brazil j9th of the month.. Southampton March 16
Buenos Ayres.. Mj9th of the month.. Southampton
Cape of Good Hone ..Nll4th of the month Plymouth .. Arrived
Cape of Good Hope • .N'l4th of the month. Southampton
Cape de Verds 14th of the month Plymouth .. Feb. 26
Ceylon (see India)
Ceylon ..............N 14th of the month, Plymouth .. Feb. 26
Channel 151e5........N lifon.,Wed.,&Frid.!Southampton Tu.Th.Sat
Chili. .. M 2(.1 & 17th of month;SeuthanaptonFeb. 16
China (see IRdia)
Constantinople 7,8,17,24,&27 of m. Dover ......
Constantinople 4th & 20th of mon. Southampton Feb. 20
Cont. of Europe M & K Twice daily Dover ...... Twicedallr
Egypt (see India)
France . ..... 31 & N Twice daily._ Dover .. Tivicadalky
Gibraltar .. Ml 4, 7, 17, 20, 27 of m. Southampton
Greece (see India)
Greytown ..........M,2nd & 17th of mon. Southampton lArrived
Hamburgh & Friday London .....
Havannah .......... ml2nd of the month Southampton ,March 1
Holland M' Daily Dover ....... Pally
Honduras of the month. SonthamptonlFeb.
India (vlaSouthampt.)M 4th & 20th of mon. Southampton! March 4
India (via Marseilles)M BthBc24th of month Dover ...... Feb. 16
lonian Isles (see Indla)i7, 17, & 27 of mon D0ver...... !
Ireland ........M & N,Twice daily Holyhead .. ,TwicedallY
Lisbon 9, 17, & 27 of M. Southampton Feb. 26
Madeira of the month Southampton Feb. 16
Madeira fi:23d of month Plymouth .. Feb. 14
Malta (see India) I
Malta y 7,17,19,27, 30 ofm.lDover
Mauritius (see India)
Mauritius 14th of the month Plymouth .. Feb. 26
Mexico .. .1.1,2nd of the month.. Southampton March I
Naples ..... N:bthlsth2sthofmon. Dover ......
New Granada ...... mad & 17th of mouth Southampton Feb. 16
New Zea1and.......... By private skip Various ports 'Uncertain.
Papal States sthThth2sthoftnon. Dover
Peninsula ..........91,17thl7th28thoftnon. Southampton Feb. 16
Peru & 27th of mon. Southampton Feb. 16
Port Natal ..........Nll4th of the rnonthl Plymouth .. Feb. 26
Sicily ...N,sthlsth2sthofmon,lDover
Tuscany sthlsth2stholinon.lOover
Venezuela 17th 01nionth!Sollthampton• Feb. 16
Van Diemen's Land (gee'
Australia) . .......
West Indies•• 2dt 17th of month Southampton March 1

lgouthampton'March 1