The Sun.
London, England, 1853-06-17 00:00:00

THE SUN. LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JUNE .7, 1853.

IN 413' d " June 15, 1853.
eli:°.°g/a,—.You wish to know whether. I can
ft Chub circumstance of Lord Nans calling at the
NC" .4 Rink' • •your residence
, inquiries respecting
was,
i'lli'ttillo4,, his '11141.* periodof. last year when: Lord Dilerbe: n _
fzt,°t mistration. I have a distinct reco ec f.
°' his Naas in the Reform Club, during that pexio.d
klat '1 1,3 r Visit
to the Reform Club was the more ealeot -led from the peculiar position of parties at
t'D esPeeiall • (!kpt %tea th Yas it was shortly. afterwards con:l.-
01'4N, 0%4 at you had been asked if you were willing
t„..,tl;;lvas sub der Lord Derby's government. This ha-
ke st - i_sequently confirmed by your stating to me
4,esd uad expressly asked if you were disposed to
er the now admistration of Lord Derby.
" I am very truly yours,
?ell! (eosi.
" R. OSBORNE."
"eiti '4l:led
'O. IN re 4.• lieoo•h) the noble lord was not successful
O. e the e
h kO4 two . ..te• I think, however, I may conclude
ail •tO visits to the club, that he was extremely
see
ti,Jeat'lribel.B4`_e• Sir, it will be in the recollection of
tt thrs q 0„, that
the noble y at the head of her
Da brianient distinctly ~stated that he had heard
1;41; 011 lzy
a°l.o k that it had been put about by friends
it4.lltithil4 that l'Polutment under the present Administra-
,l4cs-`,Yr whiebe,had directed a friend to circulate the
-°lll4 that repeated in the House of Lords. But
tikte "rd./4 at after that declaration of the noble earl, a
Chard Lie
of Ireland should have risen in his
e coots ared that this was the first time he had
\\p ‘a telionitadirliiTtrr, and consequently he had never hear
anit °IL (Hear.) Whether, sir, that rumour
lieliha and eal„scatt4 or not, I left the bar of the House of
eble
itr'.!3„uere, and without hesitation, and without
rd the Ifou allY other persons I addressed to the
tter shall now read
"
th "ea
be c t Lord oNe Naas " Reform Club, Friday Evening.
e 4; Lord , have just returned from the bar of
4,etkb",(lered 8) where I heard Lord Eglinton state that
le of tCY nomination to the office I now hold the least
4Jskt of ?se Made by the present Government.
clitel°fli eating this, I at once communicate.' with. the
be we fore Pon th , and authorised him to state that imme-
t/1' re' e change of Government in the year 1852, and
a Pt keQ Pleted 1111-aerial
I waB arrangements of Lord Derby had been
,011 thee
,easked by your lordship whether I would
'lad rLo Derby's Government, a question
}betas e b.oit bwered thee native
stated this to theirlordshi s and
pe rau by in the most eXplicit. manner denied that
bibt ~,tress any such proceeding, and I therefore
y ~11 (,:u upon the subject.
each aZ44 Inadeurja"r
, recollection that shortly after Lord
ale,oo ray ,Len the formation of his Ministry you
casino 10;18..t least twice on the ono day, leaving on
casino
at you card, and subsequently a note, requesting
tosv,"' did 41. house upon the following morning. I
"rote, 'Zistake" see you, as you afterwards informed me
Zttcr Nirerleestiii °ll the Part of your servant, and you again
‘4.14, Ix_ Me t0„..,_ g that I should call upon you. I did so ; and Lorti'e,eti dire"'eLorsation of no importance you stated that you
i"erby. 'd to ask whether I would accept office under
4110; Jestingi,
k„,bae
kof tho asked
you if you intended to make me Chan-
ri'tiona4ch offelreherr, President of the Board o`f Control, or
res-kiliTLeation. and 011 replied; that you had asked me a
Yaelipat ed you expected a serious answer. (A laugh.)
jpire, the quesr You had not stated by what authority
Derby. adding o,l°a,i and you replied, at Major Beresford s
(40rd herb the,' told
yo: was in communication with Lord
u
.y.B hat it was impossible for me to j
4 tie ''''t.lol' Le7YenThlent.
titeve.lltore,,,ud tstiLlg
toostfzrdof
havingi, subs.
.equently spoken to me, in
Lord Derb,,s the opposition I thought it my duty to
itrase:t. ins
xinrment in the House of Commons,
I:dt be.fel4tat Iwo beeettpaeseed my surprise at his remon-
,-, %Doke )1137 hostility t 1 :3,ked to take office by you, and
ininorreefacsreneecwtoasinthyenpameres.on who
'''-ford herb},
tio:L' beet' e.Zll_ distinct recollection of these facts on my
hne4nlrime,-tre,iy say how much Lord Derby's declara-
tke ship, as, ule, and I have ttoheim•efore.to
my interview
e, will, in reply, state that
yequest that your
raatter ofjustice
e I have given of
with you is sub-
eall•:)4r efreTrnecat',
rnee';g upeheri„-- Anthony rty
cow
half an hourlimafte.l°-\itlhenientteesrvaise interview
cittle,„ist:aLlaly\vtucitlhuli)n. cefrr• Was' awe of your
details of our conversation. I have
•

°--~•.~
-~

" 4, Grosvenor-place, Tuesday.
" Dear Sir,—l only received your note last night on my
return to town after an absence of some days.
" I distinctly deny that, either directly or indirectly I made
an offer of office to yourself or to any of your friends, or that
I had, or that I assumed I had, authority from anyone so to
do. (Opposition cheers.)
" As to the interview which took place between us about
the period to which you refer, my recollection of it so essen-
tially differs from the version given by yourself, that I can-
not admit its accuracy or the deductions you seem to have
drawn from it. (Opposition cheers.).
" NAAS."
" Truly, yours,
Well, I say no language can be more positive or precise
or more comprehensive than this which conveys his denial
that he made me any offer. But does the noble lord mean
by that denial merely to deny an offer of office, or does he
mean to deny that which I asserted—namely, that he asked
me " would I accept office?" If the noble lord means by
that denial not only the offer of office, but the only thing
I asserted—namely, that ho asked me whether I would
accept office—he being the Chief Secretary for Ireland—
I ask him what he means by the word " indirectly ?" My
only desire is to vindicate my own honour and veracity,
which have been impeached in the most sweeping terms by
the noble earl at the head of the government to which he
then belonged. And what were the words of the noble
earl? He said, " I heard the rumour for the first time
after the appointment of Mr. Keogh had called forth a
great deal of observation in Ireland, and had been loudly
condemned." Now, sir, if Igo to those organs of public
opinion, not only in Ireland, but in this country, with
which the noble earl is supposed to have the most com-
munity of feeling, and which were known to express the
wishes of the noble lord's Government when he was in
power, I think that, so far from giving condemnation to
that appointment, they rather selected it for approbation.
(Oh, oh, and hear, hear.) The noble lord proceeded :—" I
heard that it was then put forth by the friends of Mr.
Keogh that such an offer had been made to him. I lost no
time in authorising every person who had heard it to state,
on my authority, that I did not know—that I did not ad-
dress, neither did 1 believe then, nor do I believe now,
that any such offer, proposition suggestion, or hint was
at any time made to Mr. Keogh." Now the noble earl
holds the highest position in this country. The noble l
and.
ord
opposite occupies a position to which ono in my humble
inferior station cannot aspire. Of course it would be impro-
per to question the veracity either of the noble earl or of
the noble lord; but let me now ask the noble lord the
member for Coleraine, who now sits opposite to me—who
now hears my words, and who shall hear further evidence
—has he been labouring under a misapprehension or not
when he says that no cc offer, proposition, suggestion, or
hint " was ever so conveyed to me ? I will now turn to the
letter of the noble lord. What, let me ask, is the mean-
ing of that portion of it where he denies that he ever made
an offer of office ? I never asserted that he did. (Oh.) I
trust, if any hon. member thinks I did, ho will rise in his
place and say when and where. lam not now an absent
man. I may lack the ability, but I have good heart and
purpose to defend myself. I state distinctly, and I have
in my hand and in this house a body of evidence to that
effect which cannot be controverted, that I never said the
noble lord had offered me office. But I stated—not since
my appointment, but half an hour after my conversation
with the noble lord, and days after to the honourable and
gallant member for Middlesex, eo instanti to the hon.member
for Galway, that the noble lord asked Me " Would I ac-
cept office ? ' I have evidence, I say, to establish what I say ;
and I trust tho honest British public will not allow these
facts to be upset by prevarication. But did the noble lord
in passing by my statement that he had sought me twice
at my club—did he mean to deny or to assent to that
statement. Did he mean to deny that he had written me
two notes on two consecutive days ' • and, with regard to
the offer, does he mean to say that he admits, or denies,
or forgets it ? When he passed over that portion of my
letter where I alluded to Chancellorship of the Exchequer,
and he said ho wanted from me a serious answer, did-he
mean to deny, to admit, or to say that he had forgotten
that offer ? Finally, I wish to ask the hon. and gallant
member for North Essex (Major Berosford) whether, when
on taking me from the outside of the door there to the
window of that division lobby, he did not (and I do
not use the phraso disrespectfully to him) whiningly
complain of the attacks I was then making on Lord
Derby's Government ? When I stated to him that I had
a perfect right to take what course I thought proper,
and expressed surprise tit his remonstrance, did the hon.
and gallant member say to me " Of course you had ; but
we expected better things from you, seeing that Lord Naas
had asked you to accept office ? ' I want to know, also,
when the noble lord said he had the authority of the
hon. and gallant member for North Essex to put to me
that question, did ho mean to admit that he had mentioned
the right hon. gentleman's name, or to deny it ? The me-
mory of the right hon. gentleman, I am sure, is accurate
enough for my purpose ; and lost I should be mistaken in
that supposition, I would remind him that there was a
member of this house, an hon. and learned friend of mine,
the member for Cork (Mr. Serjeant Murphy), who, at the
time, was very close to me and to the right hon. gentleman
when the conversation or remonstrance to which I have
referred took place. The hon. and learned serjeant was
in the house and heard me and the right hon. gentleman
in conversation. He hoard the tones of the right hon.
gentleman and thought that something very odd was going
on. (A laugh.) The hon. and learned member asked mo
at once what had been going on between us? And here
let mo say, that this occurred, not since my appointment
by the present Government ; that this was not got up for
the occasion, as Lord Derby would insinuate, but took
place when the noble lord opposite and the right hon. gen-
tleman were both in office, and before the last dissolution
of Parliament. Re instanti, and forming part as it were
of the res geske of the case, the hon. and learned member
asked me what the right hon. gentleman had been saying ?
I replied that he had been " rowing" me for my attacks
on the Chancellor of the Exchequer. lam sure the right
hon. gentleman did not regard them as such —(a laugh)—
and assigned as a reason the offer which had been made
to me. Now, when I called the attention of the noble
lord opposite to that conversation, did he mean to admit,
to deny, or to forget it? Ile will have an opportunity of
explaining. But the noble lord states in another part of
his letter that the conclusion to which he arrived as to the
result of the interview was quite different from mine. I
ask him when that impression first entered his mind that
he had had a conversation with me in which a phrase was
used, that under the circumstances might have induced
me to suppose that if office would be accepted it would be
offered ? Now, I want to know, is that the impression
upon the noble lord. I ask the noble lord now to inform
the house—no matter what he wrote upon Tuesday last at
two o'clock—no matter what he wrote before I came down
here, at the very earliest moment after the noble lord's
denial was reasserted in another place—no matter what he
wrote before then—is he now of opinion that at that in-
terviow he did use the phrase that " under the circum-
stances he might have induced the hon. and learned gen-
tleman to give a reply, in case it had been the intention of
the Earl of Derby to ask him to take office, would he
accept of it ?" If the noble lord wants the exact words, I
can write them down for him ; but perhaps as the noble
lord is taking notes, he may have a copy of them. lam
defending myself. I only want to sustain my veracity—
my own personal honour—for it has been most grossl7
assailed— (loud cheers from the Ministerial benches)
and it has been assailed with very unequal odds.
(Hear, bear.) Yes, a man in the humble position I hold
has been assailed in all the powers, rank, and in
fluence of the late Government in another place. I have
not been asked whether I could explain anything that has
been urged against me. I have not had the common cour-
tesy of the ordinary notice extended to me. (Renewed
cheers.) But no, the noble earl was determined to have
me down. (Cheers.) He says, " I do not believe that
any suggestion„Proposition, offer, or hint, ever was made
by any person on my behalf, or acting on behalf of the Go-
vernment, of office to the hon. and learned gentleman."
ask this noble lord is that true? Well, I now comb to an-
other branch of this case, which, if all I have already
stated were out of the case, would place the noble lord in
a very unenviable position. I recollect the noble lord held
a conversation with a person beside myself. lam now
about to make mention of a friend of the noble lord's, an
early friend, not known now for the first time, or since the
voracity
elord came into Parliament—a gentleman to Venose
and high character I have no hesitation in asking
the noble lord to speak. I recollect distinctly, in the sum-
mer of last year, an hon. friend of mine, a brother .ot a
nicono4nbmdleube:ll:riodnf,
rt andiParliament.
thathouse,ame nh t telling
e. me that he had met the
wThasatlouednitnl hisiw tnhtesbarto.tmheyr
of the :hon. member for Galwayg (Mr.em 0 Flahert an inti-
matq-fr ieed of the noble lordlad gentlemanY)' referred
to was also a candidate at the; general election for the
Thartgentleman left England
borough of Dungarvan.
by the same train with the noble upon the dissolution, and he happened not only to travel
hen.
direct
tf r
iee lord,friend
mentioning bu t o also
thec ros snood .13
noble
lord
rrwd iwthashpimleabsyeatlithe packet'ii. to Ireland, and
ass cenzaemrsa. tiolnhaanvde
observations to so humble an individual
myyapplied to him the moment thisl
acirepeurufirics
ttarnecceo.lleittihonereofforme
receivcsd the letter of the noble lord from Ireland, to give
me as accurate an account as possible of what had occurred
becau me his statement was at right angles with the letter
of the noble lord, and I will proceed to read it ; and the
noble I ord is not aware of the existence of such a letter
from lion. friend, because, although I have been treated in
a vets, different manner, I thought, and my right hon.
friend thought, that it was right and proper that the noble
lord ohnuld have a knowledge of the existence of such a

written statement. Accordingly my hon. friend wrote to
the noble lord, that " although nothing was further from
his intention than to say or do anything disagreeable to
tho noble lord, he felt bound, as a matter of justice, to
give the benefit of his testimony, either hero or elsewhere,
should my character be attacked." Here is Mr. O'Flaherty's
letter :

" 37, Jermyn-street, June 15, 1353.
"My dear Keogh,—l have a perfect recollection of the
conversation between me and Lord Naas to which you
refer as having been communicated to you shortly after its
occurrence. It took place during a journey to Ireland last
summer, when we were both going over to our respective
elections. He spoke in terms of much disappointment and
regret at what he considered your ungrateful conduct, in
maing an attack, a few evenings previous in the house, on
Mr. Disraeli, as they had deserved a kinder consideration
from you, after the feeling evinced in his having sent for you
and asked you whether you would take office under the Go-
vernment of Lord Derby. (Loud cheers from the Ministerial
benches.) Lord Naas never mentioned to me whether or not
he made this offer by direction of any other person, but he
dwelt much on Mr. Disraeli's kind feeling towards you, and
said that the step he had taken entitled them at least to have
looked for a more generous forbearance.
" I thought ho desired his remarks to be conveyed to you,
and I mentioned them when I saw you. I have written to
Lord Naas, apprising him of my having given you this letter,
but I trust, unless absolutely necessary, you will not bring
my name in question, as, independent of other feelings, I
should be very sorry personally to take any course disagree-
able to him.

" I remain, very faithfully,
- " EDMUND O'FLAHERTY."
Now, I wrote to my hon. friend, begging him to be as pre-
cise and accurate as he could be with regard to the inter-
view ; and I again say, that whatever the noble lord may
be disposed to offer by way of oxplaaation to this house, I
do not think he will venture to throw any doubt upon the
veracity of his and my friend. Well, perhaps the noble
lord will be good enough to explain to the house how it
came to pass that he had informed this gentleman, previ-
ous to the last general election, that he had expected a
kinder consideration from me, in consequence of his having
sent for me to ask me to accept office ; and how does he re-
concile that statement with this contained in his letter—" I
distinctly deny that, either directly or indirectly, I made
an offer of office to the hon. and learned gentleman."
(Cheers.) Now, I well recollect, although the noble lord
addresses me in such very curt terms, although he does not
think it proper to go into any explanations with me upon
the contents of my letter—and I am sure my letter was
framed in no hostile spirit towards him—l believe I
merely asked him to do me a matter of justice, which I
fully expected (cheers from the Ministerial benches)—l
perfectly recollect, I say, the circumstances under which
my acquaintance with the noble lord grew. He and I
entered this house together, and for six years we sat upon
the benches opposite together. The noble lord entered
the house under the auspices—to use no stronger word—
of that great statesman, to whose party, however, he after-
wards acted in opposition ; but, in conjunction with the
noble lord, at the time, I gave my support to the com-
mercial policy of that eminent man. For a time—indeed
to the end—l continued to give that support to the same
party, although not in company with the noble lord.
But I was frequently in this house thrown into personal
communication with the noble lord, and I distinctly recol-
lect that there were other subjects of conversation between
us, which perhaps I may bring back to the noble lord's
mind. At the time when the noble lord sought the inter-
view with me, and asked whether I would accept office or
not under Lord Derby's Government, the noble lord was
then in a difficulty. The noble lord was offered—and an
hon. and learned friend of mine who sits upon the other
side of the house has had the candour to tell me that he
would Ilse in his place in the house to affirm my statement
as regards this matter—but the noble lord upon the very
day on which he sought the interview with me, or rather
on he very day on which he obtained that interview, had
been offered the Chief Secretaryship of Ireland, though
he had not as yet accepted it. Now I will ask my honour-
able and learned friend the member for Youghal (Mr.
Butt), does he not recollect my coming out of the house of
the noble lord ? I remember meeting him. And I remem-
ber at the same time I told my hoe. and learned friend
that he was a political supporter of the noble lord ; and
that, great as might be the disclosure to be made, I did not
wish in any way to take advantage of it to his detriment.
Greatly to the credit of my hon. and learned friend—(loud
cries of hear, hear)—he at once said—he frankly, and with-
out a moment's hesitation, said—" no matter whether it is
disagreeable to me or not—no matter what may be the
consequences to me—you have a right to my testimony
here or elsewhere—(renewed cries of hear, hear)- -and un-
questionably (he continued) you shall have that testimony,
and moreover, you shall have this from me, that I was
kept waiting in the noble lord's ante-room during the in-
terview which you were holding with him." But the noble
lord did discuss other questions ; for let not the noble lord
think I shrink for a single moment from placing before the
house everything of which even I have the most remote
recollection in the transactions between himself and me.
Well, he inquired of me whether I or any of my parlia-
mentary friends were disposed to offer him any opposition?
I at once shall say what I repeated to the noble lord—and
the noble lord sits there opposite to me, having declined to
do me justice, although he knows that from that time up
to the period of the general election I have remained under
a weight of slander and obloquy aimed at me in a manner
such as only can be done by the Irish press. (Cheers.) They
charged me with having sold the county of Kildare—the
liberties of Kildare—they charged me with having made a
compact—a corrupt compact—with the noble lord—with
regard to the representation of that county. The noble
lord perilled my political position—inconsequential as it
is—he perilled my seat in Parliament at a time it was of
importance to me, when with a line, with a breath, he
could have dissipated all that slander, all those calumnies,
by proving their unsubstantiality. (Ministerial cheers.)
And it was open to the noble lord to have relieved me of
that obloquy—it was open to him to have done me that
measure of justice which he knew he could have dono by a
single line. But I repeat these words—which I hope the
noble lord has taken down if they are not fixed in his mind
and memory—that "he did use a phrase which might have
induced the hon. and learned gentleman to suppose that
there was an intention up..,n the part of Lord Derby to
offer him office." Well, the noble lord asked me as to
his prospects for the county of Kildare on that or a sub-
sequent occasion. He asked me whether any of my po-
litical friends would oppose him ? I told him that, "as
far as I was personally concerned," that I would not op-
pose him, nor would any of my political friends do so."
I freely confess I sympathised with the noble lord, and I
did not wish to see the noble lord's ambition baffled for
want of a seat. (Hear.) But the conversation happened
at a time in conjunction with other matters, the recollec-
tion of which may serve to bring other matters contained'
in my letter more clearly to his mind. I ask this house
to fix their attention upon this solemn, unequivocal, un-
reserved denial of the noble lord, that "either directly
or indirectly he made no offer of office to me." I ask the
noble lord, calling these specific words to his recollection,
reminding him that I never asserted, that I do not now
assert, nor never shall assert, that the noble lord asked
me to accept office. But without that being the case, we
all know what his words mean. Is there any politican
in this house so jejune as for a moment to doubt what
was the meaning of the inquiries of the Chief Secretary
for Ireland, " Will you accept office under Lord Derby's
Government if you are offered it ?" (Ministerial cheers.
And recollect that was before the formation of Lord
Derby's Government was concluded ; for, according to the
hon. and learned member for Youghal, it was upon the
day on which the noble lord opposite was offered, but had
not yet accepted office. Recollect this ; and I ask any hon.
member what is the meaning of such words ? Why, was
it not put as if a gentleman were to go and say, suppose
I were to ask you to take office, what would be your
answer ? Or if, perhaps, shifting the expression in the
ingenious manner the noble lord had said, suppose you
had been asked by Lord Derby to take office, would you
have accepted of it?" Really the position which the noble
lord would assume reminds me of that of a gentleman say-
ing to a lady, " suppose I were to ask you to marry me,
what would be your answer ?" and that he were then to
turn round and say, be never meant to propose to her at
all. (Roars of laughter.) I feel, sir,g should be insulting
the understanding of the house if were to ask it to put any
other interpretation upon the inquiry of the noble lord.
No matter how the noble lord may vary the words, if he
admits, as I cannot but believe he must admit—l use the
words inoffensively—l have a perfect conviction he did
use a phrase which, under the circumstances, was cal-
culated to lead me to believe that I would be ten-
dered office if I would accept it. And let me say
that I am taught by my experience as a professional
man, that when persons have committed themselves by
making admissions, that they scarcely ever are able to
screw up courage enough to withdraw those admissions.
Then, if that is the case, what becomes of the denial of the
noble lord, and which was repeated on Tuesday night last a
denial that " neither directly nor indirectly" the noble lord
had made me an offer of office. I came down to the house
as early as f could, and I gave notice of my intention to
bring the question under review. I was apprised by the
hon. member for Roscommon (Mr. F. French) that the
noble earl (Lord Eglinton) intended to bring the question
under the notice of the other houso. I sent my friend to
the noble lord, saying_ that it was not fair to bring the
matter forward until I had made a reply. I thought it
but fair that a little time should be allowed me for my
defence, but the answer given by that noble earl was, that
he was pledged to the noble lord here to repeat his solemn
and unequivocal denial, and accordingly it was again re-
peated. The seen° is now shifted, and the noble lord and
I are now in presence of each other. (Loud cheers from
the Ministerial side.) The house has heard my statement
—it has heard the letters read, which I have placed with-
out reserve before it. (Renewed cheers.) I ask, then, the
house and the country to consider whether the probabilities
of this case are with me or with the noble lord, and whes
ther, even if the testimony of those disinterested witnesses
whom I hate Balled dti vied placed wholly out of view—
t ask, may I not presume with reason that the verdict will
remain with me, despite of anything which may fall from
the noble lord? (Great cheering.)
Viscount NAAS —I rise, under circumstances of a very
extraordinary nature, to claim the attention of the house,
not for an hour and ten minutest as the hot, and learned
gentlenum has dent, but for a VerY &diet time? for
the purpose of making a statement which shall be tit:Lorna'
niented by the flowers of rhetoric, or by the eloquent words
which We have hoard from the hon. gentlem nan? but will
be a simple statement of the truth. (Loud chettgi fro&
the Opposition benches.) Sir, I have listened for the last
hour and five minutes to the betrayal of private confidence
—(cries of "Oh, oii,/i from the Ministerial benches, and
cheers; from the Oppositien)--I hatze HAMM to the be-
trayal of private tonfidenCe—i bai=t the hetkipti of
(:',lll.F•eisation, and a distortion of the words used in
drawn r
h.
nine
atkeh fromre,
auttistdl 10e0ft
etfrheret:,aOh
those conversations. (Oppo' eers.) Under those;
y
circurastatees, I tin hot think it is indiimbent on me, nor
is it iiiegfeti"; 'fol. me, to follow the hon. and learned gen-
tleman through all the web of deductions which he has
befere the house. I
have a simple statement to make, and a simple statement
ob4nyc. and learned itiidismayed
and my statement will be mateerieakalrcinluyeael:lgi:enertillefiendmt
in almost all
its facts from the ;statement which we have heard from the
hon. and learned gentleman, (Cheers.) I think I shall be
able, when I conclude that statement, to appeal to the
holm and ask them to consider which of the statements
they will believe. (Rear.) Unpractised I own I am in
debate, and unable I may be to follow the hon. and learned
gentleman through the variety
butn
o nothing hI
ndgo 'au
ty tlh efeetrul thco:avni nd
fecci ir
t 1 aft
°lpeicvseryhe hwaosridntirodututec:di,B
mately my memory is ac-
curate on the facts lam going to state. (Hear, hear.) I
wili first refer to the terms on w'hieh I have been with the
lion. and learned gentleman duri ,ng the earlier.:tart of tlie
last Parliament. We certainl.T came into Parliament to-
gether—WO at on the Oppolgt ' Qthe h° 'do user—the

hon. and learned gentleman was a member of the Canton•
club, to which I also belonged—and though we differed in
many essential points during the earlier period of our par-
liamentary career, a very friendly feeling existed between
us. (Hear, hear.) I recollect that at very many periods
during the year I had constant communications on many
points of a most friendly nature with the hon. and learned
gentleman, both in this house and out of it. (Hear, hear.)
When we came to the time to which he has alluded, it is
not to be wondered that I should have felt myself justified
in communicating unreservedly with the hon. and learned
gentleman; but little did I think that, in eighteen months
afterwards, such a statement should be made by him, be-
cause an attack was made upon him in another place, and
statements there made which I do not believe the hon. and
learned gentleman will be able to confute, though he has
already denied them. (Hear.) I do not believe that he will
be able to deny those statements any more than he will be
able to confirm the statement which he has made this after-
noon in this house. (Hoar.) A little before the formation
of the late Government I was in constant communication
with the hon. and learned gentleman on the subject of a mo-
tiou which then fell to my lot to bring before the house. My
communications with that hon. and learned gentleman were
frequent upon that occasion ; he called often at my house
and I saw him often at other places. The motion to which
I allude was a motion which I felt it my duty to make with
regard to the conduct of the thou Lord Lieutenant of Ire-
land. That hon. and learned gentleman was fully conver-
sant with the facts of the case. He told me on that occa-
sion that he intended to take part in the debate, and that
he intended to speak in favour of my resolution ; but when
the debate took place he did not take part in it, because,
having been engaged professionally in the case, I believe
he did not thinkt
inAlamade
emi
itlaonr itdigohnt
defeated,
wto
a was
loi so.na dt eh
eoTntl
then
hnv y day
sdayafterGovernmenttb
edtihav wasi
omvoe tritohnr owwans .
sion on the motion of the noble lord opposite (Lord Palmer-
ston) took place on Friday—and on Saturday Lord Derby
accepted from her Majesty the task of forming a Ministry.
Shortly after—l cannot recollect which day, but I think it
was Tuesday—an intimation was made to me that it was
very probable I should be offered office—dependent, of
course, on the probability of my re-election. (Hear.) I
thought it was no breach of confidence—l thought I might
safely refer to a member of an opposite party, and a poli-
tical opponent, and ask him whether it was likely or not
that I should be opposed at my election. Between the
Monday and Thursday I think I had three or four commu-
nications with him on the subject, and I think the house
will admit that in those communications there was nothing
that any man had a right to reproach himself with. Ido
not understand what the allusion means that was made by
the hon. and learned gentleman with regard to his character
and the attacks that were made upon him by the Dublin
press. I own I was surprised that the part he took on that
occasion had exposed him to such malignant attacks; but I
admit that I was met with a most friendly feeling by the
hon. and learned gentlemen, and that in a friendly way he
did exert himself, without compromising his own opinions,
to save me from a contest at that time. On the day to
which the hon. gentleman alludes, I had the interview with
him to which he refers. It is perfectly true that I did seek
the hon. and learned gentleman in the way he described,
but really 1 desired to speak to the hon. gentleman on mat-
ters of some importance, the most important of which was
my own election. (Ironical cries of Hear, hear, from the
Ministerial benches.) Honourable gentlemen may smile,
but do they mean to say they do not believe what I am
stating? If any hon. gentleman does mean to say so, let
him stand up in this house, and I shall be prepared to meet
him. (Cheers from the Opposition.) On the day in ques-
tion that that interview took place, the honourable and
learned gentleman came into my room. Ido not in the least
degree deny that I was not able to find him at the Reform
Club, and I wrote a note to his residence requesting to see
him, but I did not fix the day exactly. When the hon.
gentleman came into my room, we discussed for some time
different topics connected with various interests. Amongst
them was the subject of the election, and I recollect dis-
tinctly what I said to the hon. and learned gentleman.
(Hear.) This is the question on which, with the answer
to it, this whole charge is founded—(hear, hear) ; and I
think when the house hears them it will admit that a more
serious charge was never made on such trumpery grounds.
(Hear, hear.) When the house hears the question and the
answer, I will allude to the circumstances under which
that question was put and the answer was given, and I
will tell the house the reason why I put that question.
(Hear, hear.) I asked the hon. and learned gentleman in
perfect confidence, never thinking that the question would
ever be made an engine of to endeavour to damage my
character. ' (Cries of oh, oh.) I asked him this queE.
tion—" If office had been offered to you under the new
Government, would you or your friends have accepted it ?"
(Oh, oh, hear, hear, and cheers from the Ministerial
benches.) I fully admit that I asked that question ; it
may have been an imprudent question, but I can safely
say it was not put with the intention which the hon. and
learned gentleman has assumed. (Hear, hear.) He made
an answer, which I recollect as distinctly as the question.
(Hear, hear.) His answer was this—" I think that, after
all that has occurred—after the part that I and my friends
have taken in the overthrow of the late Government—
some such offer might have been made." (Loud cries of
hear, from the Opposition.) After that we proceeded
to discuss the various topics connected with the prospects
of party at that time, and the hon. and learned gentleman
in the course of that conversation asked me a question
which I thought was rather peculiar. (Hear.) He asked
me whether any person in authority authorised me to ask
that question. (Hear.) I said—" As you ask me the
question, I can tell you that Mr. Beresford knew of my
asking this question.' (Oh, and hear.) The hon. gentlemen
opposite seem to think they have made a most notable dis-
covery, by their cheers ; but when I tell them of the inter-
view I had with my right hon. friend (Mr. Beresford) a few
hours before they will not be prepared to sneer in the way
they do. (Hear.) I gave that answer because I was bound in
honour to tell the truth, and I (lid tell the truth to the hon.
and learned gentleman on that occasion. The question
was put with a different object from that which the hon.
and learned gentleman has given the house to understand.
The reason I put the question was, that I had a communi-
cation a few hours before with my right hon. friend (Mr.
Beresford). I was walking in St. James's-square, and met
my right hon friend. I stopped him, and asked the news,
and commenced a conversation. I said to him most dis-
tinctly, " I wonder what position in the now Parliament
the Irish party aro likely to take with regard to the Go-
vernment ? He said he did not know. I said—" lam on
friendly and intimate term's with an hon. member of that
party "—alluding to the hon. and learned gentleman op-
posite, who makes this attack. (Oh, oh,) "I can have no
hesitation in asking the question—and I will ask him the
question—for I had intended to ask him the question as a
matter of information for myself, whether he would have
accepted office, or was disappointed in not getting it."
(Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman then made this
statement to me :—" You may say at the same time, from
me, that the Government have no unfriendly feeling what-
ever towards them." (Hear, hear, and laughter.") This is
the reason why, when the hon. gentleman asked me that
question, I was bound in honour to say that Mr. Beresford
knew of my asking him the question. I put it to him.
(Hear, hear.) But Ido say this—that the right hon. gen-
tleman never authorised me to make an offer of office to
the hon. and learned gentleman. He never authorised me
to ask the question, because I told him myself that I was
about to ask the question ; but he did authorise me to
snake the statement with regard to the friendly feeling of
the Government towards the hon. and learned gentleman
and his party. (Hear, hear.) I had so great an objection
to making what are called " authorised communications"
of any kind, that I did not give the message of my right
hon. friend to the hon. and learned gentleman; and, in
further proof of my statement. I may say that I never did,
until the day before yesterday, mention the result of that
interview to any one single living man. (Hear, hear.)
When the hon. and learned gentleman left the room, after
our interview, the impression left on my mind was this—
that in the answer he gave to me, and in the subsequent,
conversation we had, we discussed it ih that spirit, and I
thought he left the room with the impression that no offer
of office was likely to be made to him or to his party. I
will do him the justice to say that my impression was that
if the offer had been made to him it would have been re-
fused. (Hear.) Let me now call the attention of the
house to the day on which the alleged offer of OffiC3 was
made. (Hear, hear.) It was stated to have been made on
Thursday, and every office under the Government was
filled up then. (Hear, hear.) The authorised list of the
new appointments had appeared that morning in the news-
papers, and it is quite impossible that the hon. and learned
gentleman, looking to that fact, can pretend to say, by any
construction he could put upon the words, that any offer
of office was then intended. (Hear, hear). I fully grant
that, taking the words by themselves, unaccompanied by
the statement I have made, which I declare on my honour
to be perfectly true, there is great probability in the in-
ference which the hon. and learned gentleman drew from
him. (Hear, hear.) Bat I can safely say that I put the
question merely as a matter of conversation, and not with
any view of drawing any admission from the honourable
and learned gentleman. I merely asked him for my own
information what were his feelings as to the non-offering
of office to him and his party, and not with any other
view. That is the statement I have to make to the house
concerning the interview I had with the hon. andn learned
gentleman ; and when I assure the house again d again
that I never did mention the subject of that interview to
any man connected with the Government, or to any other
person whatever, I can lay my hand on my heart and ask
the house to believe that every word I say is the truth.
(Cheers.) A letter has been produced, which I own filled
me with considerable astonishment, setting forth that I
had stated, whilst travelling in a railway carriage,
that I
had made an offer of office to the hon. and learned gentle-
man. It is perfectly impossible I could have made that
statement ; and I cannot doubt that the hen. gentleman who
makes that assertion of what is untrue must have been
under some strange mistake. Would the house believe
that I mentioned such a subject to the hon. gentleman,
who was a political opponent, which I never mentioned to
any other perecin ? (Hear, hear.) I have now told my
story as to those prheate communications, and perhaps,
viewed through the light Of parliamentary practice, there
nifty be some gentlemen that May not be disposed to attach
credence to all that I have said ; heft, be that as it may, in
this matter I feel there' is nothing whatever with which to
reproach myself, (Hear.) I communicated freely and
frankly with the honourable and learned gentleman under
the circumstances which I have related ; and when I
WU§ asked the question upon which he has laid so
mtich Meet and which I answered with truth, but
the answet to Aids has been fixed upon as a mode
aftivailme,pllicatthiningk not only`
that certain persons in this country have of the honour
°cnirlicumffiest'anbel,lets distinguished inguithleidowindiliveia.
which aght to characterise the intercom-se of gentlemen
ettl ttlheamt
atehhe
eienegheenwunitywise'llitienetheirtheile
itt(honourableHmea;7hheealri.ealvnedir
helletrnplrockifeefges which I have adduced, accom-
truth caf all dist hey() state d, wil e ent to induce
the house and the eenutry to believe that have spoken
tittnigd lay the pledge of my own ill
andfa word for the
&fording to the exact facts of the case. I must. say I freely
notof
fttpried
eaenipelrre,ohruitnetfhieudcogmursenetl;
I could confidently, freely, and frankly communicate with
e
a man who, although a politfcal opponent, I at that time
fljtarinidklitlicoit Ihtma It
tmt II
valise: 9 jyl. hheaarryt oerwr, o r of judgment, because I believed
to degenerating into
bolit;yred tonnibeenataf4ewnds.rfa(reOhseealterr.2 Itreegret that in. these.
days • 4.strife, and that private confidence may
mere recriminators
to damage a political opponent
Such,
sir, never be my
bein violatedthecourse—(cheers)—and such bas neverbeen my course. In
publici
thatbeen made, I
the plausible statement has
spite of theestoirebjaectitenb!
t anything which is in the least
that I have not thaty chars ter which the humblest of
deny that I ever took that course ; and. I ho.pe. and believe
degree derogatory to
character of an
5 tl (Loud cheers.)
English gen eman.
wit serious
(tit d •h
Major
BERESFORD said he ha ls cue
n may always endeavour to maintain—the
attention to the charge and the explanation that had been
but to state distinctly what he knew, and to stand on. what
he had done. There were two wholly distinct parts in Mr.
given. He-had come there, not to make a long oration,
nfficeemade to him .by,Lprit Naas, and
as authorised by him
Beresford) • and secondly, a private conversation
Ic.eogh's speech ; first, as to any offer, or hinted offer, of
(Major I • ee
which la. Keogh maintained to have u held between

them—evidently, by his own account, in a secret and con
fidential way, and which had been now brought forth, as
was the custom of that house and these times, to be a con-
demnatory matter against himself, and a matter of reproach
against his noble friend. (He: r, hear.) Without treating
the words in a jesuitical sense, as to whether they
amounted to an offer of office or not, ho distinctly stated,
in the presence of the house and the country, that no one
whatsover authorised him to offer or hint at an offer of
office to the honourable and learned gentleman ; and
had he not been authorised, he could not authorise
his noble friend to make such an offer. But there were
circumstances which proved the impossibility of this,
without searching for corroboration, or sending here
and there for letters from different gentlemen. (Hear.)
Lord Naas and he had a conversation in St. James's-
square, on the morning of the 26th February in last year.
Had ho then authorised Lord Naas to offer place or hint at
place to Mr. Keogh, was it within the verge of possibility
that from that day to last Monday Lord Naas should never
have mentioned to him the conversation ho had with Mr.
Keogh, or given him the slightest idea of what had oc-
curred? (Hear, hear.) The plainest understanding, tho
most unsophisticated reasoner, could see how improbable
it was that a person said to be in daily communication
with the Film() Minister, should have sent an offer of place
to a gentleman, and have never once asked for an answer.
(Hear, hear.) Reason and common sense told them that
was impossible. As to his being in daily communication
with Lord Derby more than any other prominent member
of the Government, that was not his custom. When he
did anything he took the responsibility of it. (Cheers and
laughter.) He did not authorise others to do a thing ; be
did not bring them in. He did not communicate private
conversations which occurred under his roof—and if hon.
gentlemen, who were so ready to sneer, would have the
same respect as he had for confidential communications—
(laughter)- they should not so frequently have friendly
words spoken in confidence and in an unguarded moment,
retailed again in public. It was perfectly true that on
Wednesday morning, the 26th February, he met by acci-
dent with Lord Naas in St. James's-square. Lord Naas
informed him that be was likely to receive the honour of
an early call from Mr. Keogh. He said it was most likely,
as office had not been offered. to him, and as he and his
friends had assisted in turning out the late Government,
that they would be discontented. He (Mr. Beresford) said
"It cannot be helped, but tell them there is a friendly
feeling towards them—(laughter)—and I will thank you to
be kind enough to convey that to Mr. Keogh" He wished
not to offer him place ; but he wished to say—" If we
have been foes, don't let that continue." (Laughter.) It
happened that Lord Nass did not communicate this mes-
sage ; he certainly never gave him (the Major) any account
of it. Circumstances occurred which made it impossible
for him to see Lord Nass for a few days ; his lordship then
went to Ireland to his election ; and after that, so long an
interval having elapsed, he did not think it necessary to
ask if he had delivered the message, thinking it probable
he had done so. He now came to the second part of the
charge ; but he protested against any charge being made
against himself or his noble friend, which was founded on
a private or confidential message. Towards the end of
May, Mr. Keogh had made a violent attack in that house
on Mr. Disraeli. Happening to meet Mr. Keogh after-
wards, he had told him that he was astonished at
the violence of that attack, said he did not expect
it from him and asked " Did you not receive from
Lord Naas a kindly and confidential communication
from myself?" (Great laughter.) Upon this Mr. Keogh
had flown off, and informed somebody else that he (Major
Beresford) had authorised Lord Naas to offer him office.
As to an offer of office from Lord Derby and his Govern-
ment, it was only in the brilliant imagination of the hon.
and learned gentleman himself. If he meant to say that
the office of Solicitor-General for Ireland was offered to
him, the wish was father to the thought. (No, no, and
great laughter.) He entirely repudiated any such offer
being made ; and before sitting down, he would again de-
precate that spirit which seemed to animate men to make
public matter of that which was private and confidential
and which must destroy the confidence which gentlemen
used to feel and ought to feel in one another. This pros-
titution of piivate documents and confidential words de-
tracted from the honour and dignity of that house, deterio-
rated the fame and character of public men, was inimical
to all feelings of honour and friendship, and tended to re-
duce members of Parliament, like convicts, to the solitary
system. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) No man dared speak
to his neighbur, or write a confidential letter, not know-
ing what use might be made of it. (Hear, hear.) Mr.
Keogh had complained of the question being prejudged by
the statements in the House of Lords. But between the
time of those two statements, a lengthy and untrue state-
ment of the whole occurrence was published in the Morning
Chronicle of last Monday, containing the statement now
made, and the evidences that had been given. He consi-
dered that that was prejudging the question, and a secret
way of doing it. (Hear, hear.)
• Mr. NAPIER said it had been remarked as a singular
circumstance that Lord Derby should have stated that he
had heard of the rumour. He would explain how that
happened. Two gentlemen had applied to him to know if
Lord Derby had offered office to Mr. Keogh, and he had
given the statement an unqualified contradiction. At one
gentleman's request ho had written to Lord Derby about
it, and his answer was as follows :

" Knowsley, Feb. 3.
His lordship, in reference to the inquiry, whether at the
time of the formation of the late Government an offer of office
was made to Mr. Keogh, says that neither then nor at any
other time was any such offer made by my authority or with
my knowledge.' He then states that he had enclosed my note
to Mr. Disraeli, and had that morning received his answer.
He adds these words ; It is as full and satisfactory as it was
possible to be, and I enclose it to you for your satisfaction.
You may therefore, I think, state without fear of contradic-
tion that the assertion is destitute of any foundation, and
that no offer nor overture of any kind was made to Mr.
Keogh by or on the part of the late Government.'"
It was in this way that Lord Derby had heard of the
rumour. He (Mr. Napier) never mentioned the subject to
the Earl of Eglinton.
Mr I. BUTT wished the house fully to understand the
position which he occupied in this matter. He had an in-
terview with Lord Naas one night about his election ; and
when he called, Mr. Keogh was engaged in conversation
with him. He thought nothing more of it till the other
evening, when Mr. Keogh met him in the lobby, and
stated that it was important to him to have his (Mr. Butt's)
evidence that he had been with the noble lord that evening.
He promised Mr. Keogh that ho should have it. Mr.
Keogh then said, " Do you recollect that you were kept
waiting?" lie certainly was kept waiting ; but he was
not an accurate judge of minutes. Ho took the first op-
portunity of informing Lord Naas of what had passed.
That was the entire amount of what he said.

Mr. DISRAELI—There is no motion before the house ;
but as my name has been frequently introduced into this
discussion, perhaps it will not be deemed intrusive if I offer
a few observations to the house on this subject. I think the
real question before us has reference to the veracity of two
honourable members of this house. Ido not suppose that
any gentleman would really get up and maintain that there
were any circumstances that ought to have influenced the
late Administration not to offer office to the hon. and
learned gentleman (Mr. Keogh) if they wished. (Hear.)
I beg the house to recollect the circumstances under which
the honourable and learned gentleman was placed in re-
gard to the great body of gentlemen who were sitting at
this side of the house at the time when the Government of

the noble lord (Russell) broke up. The hon. and learnet
gentleman I think was first returned to Parliament in 1847,
and he was returned as the only Roman Catholic who enter-
tained Conservative principles; and, of course, that alone
was a combination which gave him a position when he entered
the house—a position which he immediately sustained
by his own great abilities. The hon. and learned gentle-
man took his seat among the Conservative ranks, and he
became a member, like most gentlemen who profess Con-
servative principles, of the Carlton Club. I am willing
to state that he upheld the policy of Sir R Peel, but at
the same time that he sat by us there were many questions
on which he acted with us ; he was in communication with
my late lamented friend, Lord George Bentinck, who had a
high opinion of his abilities, and at the very moment when
the Govcrnment of the noble lord opposite (Lord J Russell)
broke up, he was in personal communication with my noble
friend (Lord Naas) as to the management of what might
be called a party question. The Government, within 24
hours of that debate, ceased, and I can conceive no reason
—on the contrary, I can conceive many reasons— why office
should have been offered to the hon. and learned gentleman.
Though he entered Parliament as a Conservative, he had
acted with us on many occasions ; he had been occupied on
a motion which had been brought forward with the view
to injure the then Government at the very moment when
it ceased to exist, and he was a gentleman of recognised
abilities and power. I say, then, thero was no reason why
office should not have been offered to the hon. and learned
gentleman, and, so far as I am concerned, I should not have
been astonished or displeased if office had been offered and
accepted. Therefore the question is, whether the statement
of my noble friend or that of the hon. and learned gentle-
man on this matter is the true one. Tho house will recol-
lect that my noble friend has no interest whatever in mak-
ing any statement which is not perfectly true, because it
would be nothing improper, nothing which was not strictly
warrantable, if my noble friend had been authorised to
make the offer of office, and if he had been pressed by Lord
Derby to do so. I was very imperfectly acquainted with
the details of this question before I entered the house to-
night. I have listened attentively to the statement of the
hon. and learned gentleman, and I have brought to it an
impartial consideration, for I have always very much ap-
preciated the abilities of the hon. and learned gentleman
the member for Athlone ; and, so far as I am acquainted
with the details, my sincere though individual impression
is, that the statements of my noble friend and the hon.
and learned gentleman are perfectly reconcileable with the
facts. (Hear, hear.) My noble friend is on terms of ex-
treme intimacy with my right honourable friend the mem-
ber for North Essex. He is in the habit of receiving his
visits and communications. My noble friend is at that mo-
meat in communication with the hon. and learned gentle-
man on a subject of the greatest interest and importance to
my noble friend, namely, the chance of his being ableh to
preserve his seat for the county of Kildare, and upon tat
subject the hon. and learned gentleman was a very good
judge. The very fact of my noble friend having appealed
to the hon. and learned gentleman on such a subject, and
the hon. and learned gentleman immediately responding to
that appeal, proves the terms on which they were. The
interview that had been referred to took place on a day
when the Administration had been really formed ; I believe
on that day, three days had passed since the appointment
of Attorney and Solicitor-General for Ireland had taken
place; the new Administration was complete ; and the
only appointment which had not then formally taken place
was that of the office which was eventually accepted by
my noble friend (Lord Naas). And then my noble friend,
not having the slightest authority to make any offer to the
hon. and learned gentleman, because irrespective of any
other circumstance, there was no place which could be
offered to the bon. and learned gentleman—icy noble
friend, I say, was extremely anxious—and naturally, look-
ing to the prospects of the new Government—to ascertain
what might be the probable course of the hon. and learned
gentleman, and of those with ;whom he tee i
acn pulic life,
in the new Parliament, and in reference to tl,e b
new Go-
vernment. Well, I ask the house, what was there more
natural than this—relations of intimacy existing between
those two gentlemen at the time - -the new Government
having been formed, and therefore there being no possi-
bilityof any immediate understanding on that head—what
was there more natural than that my n..oble friend, espe-
cially as he had recently had a conversation with my right
hon. friend (Mr. Beresford), should have sounded the hon.
and learned gentleman whether there was a prospect or
not of himself and his friends going into considerable oppo-
sition against the now Government? That I take to be
the fair state of the case as regards my noble friend. Well,
take the position of the hon. and learned gentleman. Ho
finds himself in confidential communication with one with
whom he was intimate, and who was now a Minister of