The Sun.
London, England, 1854-12-23 00:00:00

TICE St'N, LONDON, SATUIthAY EVENIN G, DECEMBER 231_18114.

entyply the went by r ageing the htll. For,' let it rot be
forgotten, it was not intended to borrow from some foreign
power a corps of troops ready disciplined and equipped ;
but what they were really "going to do would be simply
to levy recruits from the smaller German states, with
the connivance, indeed, of the sovereigns, but without
the cognisance of the Diet. (Hoar, hoar.) Ho know it was
said that the custom in Germany was to grant to persons
who had completed their term of service in the landwehr
a passport for the purpose of emigration, and that such
passports ipso facto denaturalised the holders of them. He
Very much doubted whether, notwithstanding this very in-
genious, if not very dignified proceeding, it would not be
in the power of a diet to offer serious impediments to the
levying of troops in this way. But suppose they succeeded
in thus smuggling out 10,000 men as emigrants, what time
would he required to get them here ? The Government
stated that they bad as yet entered into no negotiations on
the subject, and diplomatic proceedings at the German
court wore proverbially slow. (Hear.) Then the melt
were to be brought here, which could not be done in much
less than three months. A similar period must elapse be-
fore they were equipped, organised, and fit for service. If
the bill would net enable them to throw 10,000 men into
the Crimea in less than six months, what did they gain by
substituting foreign mercenaries for English soldiers ?
(Hear.) He entertained no jealousy of foreigners, and
would be glad to see, not 10,000 but 40,030 men, such as
composed the German legion in the late war, fighting by
the tido of oar troops. (Hear.) The Germans who fought
with us in the late war were united to us by the ties of a
common cause; they were fighting against a common,
enemy, that man who had overrun a great part of Europe.
But what ties or interest in common would the persons
have with us who were proposed to be enlisted by this
bill? Considering the time which it would take to send off
10,000 fOreigners their place might easily be supplied by
British soldiers. He regretted to hear from the noble lord
that our army was short by 20,000 of the number voted by
Parliament. He regretted this statement, because it must
be gratifying to the Emperor of Russia to learn that our
power of recruiting was nearly exhausted. If this were
so Government ought to render the service more attrac-
tive ; Parliament would gladly aid them in doing so. It
would be true economy, at such a moment as this, to
double the bounty on enlistment. If this and other mea-
sures were adopted, with the military ardour now
existing in this country, thousands would come flock-
ing in to enlist. Much had been said about raw recruits ;
but it should ever be remembered that those who bore the
brunt of the battle at Waterloo were not the veterans of
-the Peninsula, but those who were commonly spoken of
as raw recruits. (Hear.) From the recent Austrian
treaty, there was every reason to hope that, in a week from
this time, a portion of her numerous troops would be
brought to our aid. He had not much reliance on that ;
but why should we not endeavour to organise the Turks,
as had been done with the• Portuguese in the Peninsular
war ? The Secretary at War had spoken of the Turks
being celebrated for fighting behind stone walls ; this was
an unworthy observation, and laid'the right hon. gentle-
man open to the same reproof which he had bestowed on
Sir E. B. Lytton for depreciating the aid of German volun-
teers. (Hear.) He was convinced it would be -a great
assistance if we could organise an efficient body of Turks.
Then we had invaluable auxiliaries in our well-trained and
experienced Indian troops, comprising men of bravery,
such as Major Ed wardes. (Hear.) In proposing this
amendment he hoped he should not be charged with a fac-
tious course towards Government. Both sides of the house
admitted the necessity of carrying oh the war with vigour
and energy; they only differed as to the means by which
this was to be done. The measurb proposed, while tend-
ing to depress the energy of our own countrymen, would
increase the confidence of Russia. By acting in a spirit
of liberality towards our soldiers, the Government might
be able to send forth army after army of mon such as those
who fought at Alma and Inkermaar: (Hear.)
Mr. COBDEN—If I ask the permission of the house to
allow me to enlarge a little on the question before the house
I have this excuse, that the subject matter before us has
been ably and very fully discussed. There is another rea-
son why the question may be treated in a more general way
as affecting the conduct of the Government in carrying on
the war, and in their negotiations. Wo have heard a groat
number of hon. members publicly declare that they refuse
to entertain the question on its merits, but they persist
in voting contrary to their own opinions, simply as
a vote of confidence in' the Government. I must say I
think that, amongst all the evils which attach to a state
of war, it is not one of the least considerable that it has so
demoralising a tendency upon the members of this house
that we are called upon to vote contrary to our conscienti-
ous conviction, and to allow these votes to be recorded
where the explanation of those votes will not appear. It
was stated the other night by the noble lord the leader of
this house that proposals had been made on the part of
the Emperor of Russia through Vienna, for peace upon
certain bases, which have bon pretty frequently before
the world under the designation of the "four points." I
wish to draw attention to that subject; bat before I do
so, let me promise thatl do not intend to say one word with
regard to the origin of this unhappy war. I intend to
start from the situation in which we now find ourselves ;
I think that it is the province of this House of Commons
to express an opinion upon that situation ; and if it be not
as I am going to do, to argue in favour of peace upon the
terms announced by the Government, at all events I
think hon. members will see that it is absolutely necessary,
on the other hand—if the war is to go on, if we are to
carry on a war of invasion by land against an empire like
Russia—that it should be carried on in a very different
spirit and on a very different scale, from what it has
hitherto .been. I think that both- sides of the house will
occupy common ground, at least in this respect ; we shall
all recognise the propriety, nay, tho necessity, before we
separate, of discussing these two views of this important
and critical question. Before offering an opinion on the
merits or desirability of a peaCe founded on these four
points, it will be necessary to ask ourselves what was the
cause, the object sought for in the war. I mean as a
matter of fact. It has always been one of my difficulties,
in arguing this question out of doors, with men of sense
and intelligence, that I never could come to a very intel-
ligible understanding with any two people as to what were
the objects of the war. I have met with very respec-
table and well-educated men, who have told me that the
object of the war was to open the lack Sea for merchant
vessels, not knowing that the Black Sea was as free to the
merchant flags of all nations as the Baltic. Others have
had the impression that the war was to open the Danube,
to allow ships of all nations to go up the Danube, not
knowing that the traffic up the Danube in the last 10 years
has multiplied tenfold probably, and that all nations have
free access to it. I have heard it stated, and have seen it
recorded solemnly at public meetings, that we are at war
because we had a treaty with the Sultan, binding us to
give to him aid, and to maintain the integrity and inde-
pendence of his empire. At one of the most crowded and
exciting meetings ever held, which took place at Leicester,
a resolution was moved by a most intelligent gentleman,
seconded by another, and passed unanimously, to this
effect : "Resolved—that we are bound by the most solemn
treaties with the Sultan of Turkey, to defend the integrity
and independence of his dominions." Well, Lord Aber-
deen has ostentatiously declared in the House of Lords, as
if for the instruction of such gentlemen, that we had no
treaty beforo the war binding us to defend the dominions
of the Sultan. (Hear.) But the general ground of the
popularity of the war out of doors has no doubt been cf
another character. There has been a strong feeling that
Russia has not only absorbed and oppressed certain na-
tionalities, but that she has been the prime agent by which
Austria has been enabled to perpetuate her government
over unwilling fubjects. I should say that that class of
people was fairly represented in this house by my lamented
noble friend the late member for Marylebone. (Hear.) The
noble lord was one from whom I differed entirely with re-
gard to his views on these questions of interference in the
affairs of foreign countries, but one for whose private vir-
tues, disinterested kindness, and boundless generosity I
shall ever entertain the greatest veneration. (Hear, hear.)
The late Lord D. Stuart, for twenty years; fairly repre-
sented that popular feeling out of doors which was
directed especially against the Emperor of Russia',
and whose sympathies are centred mainly upon those
territories that lie contiguous to that, vast empire.
I used sometimes to say to him jocularly, " Your sym-
pathy is gergraphical ; it extends from the Baltic
to the Black Sea, bordering on the Russian empire ;
and if ever there be Poles, Hungarians, Wallachians, Or
Moldavians in distress, you aro sure to be here to repre-
sent them. (Hear, hear.) And if any unfortunate indi-
viduals from those countries should be refugees here from
oppression and misgovernment at home, they come na-
turally to you for succour." (Hear, hear.) Lord Dudley
Stuart represented a great amount of sympathy in the
country with reference to these nationalities ; but now I
ask whether that force of public) opinion which has beep
founded upon the impression that we were going to war in
order to aid the Poles, Hungarians, and others, has not
been entirely deist ive—whether it may not be put down
along with those other grounds which I have named—the
opening of the Black Sea, the free navigation of the Da-
nube, and the supposed treaty with Turkey—as all equally
delusive so far as the people out of doors have relied on
the Government arrying on the war for these objects.
The Government knew that the three first did not exist;
and they know well that they never intended to go to war
for the purpose of setting up the Hungarians, the Poles,
or any of those oppressed nationalities. I yield to no one
in my sympathy for those who are struggling for liberty
in any part of the world. I respect the motives of those
who wish to join hands in aiding nationalities to attaia
their independence or freedom ; but I never will pretend
to say that I can sanction a system of propagandism which
seeks to establish this or that nationality by force of arms,
or any influence that England can bring to b6ar, because
that is violating a principle which I wish to see carried
out in the other direction, in opposition to those who in-
terfere with nationalities for the purpose of putting them
down. lam against interference with the affairs of other
countries for whatever object it may be sought. At the
same time I will admit that if they could show me that
a war was likely to advance liberty, constitutional free-
dom, or national independence where it is a right, it
would be a very great bribe to me indeed to acquiesce
in that war, or to see some compensation for the
multiplied evils that war brings in its train. We
now come to what I presume is really statesmen's ground
Turkish
as pa empiret of
a
for going to war. That is,
Rtous defend
a hent(i
• the several states of Europe within the
scheme for P
That has been your object in carrying on
present limits.
Ur resent case. But I "must say that
against the
keeneeroinazchmen ,
•th Russia its P , • •
war VVI
magniloquent
phraseology which
lord (Russell) who started these ma -
g
tended very sg-erreyatmauecahl °to'
this has been mi,;ushehoasupt
niloquent phrases, led
.oft
last August before a meeting of
Perth. He talked there of
baillies and town councillors at
question. The noble
s one intended to pro
he has frequently talkedof this war a
The noble lord' thou civilised world.
our duty to mankind and the whole world; and since then
tect the liberties of all Europe and 0
object gf
aged
We aro en
theo
own, but to defend an ancient ally, and to maintain said at a city meeting—
in in a just and necessary war, for no immediate
in-
dependence of Europe." I have a word to soy about
e
ur
maintaining the independence of Europe. We are situated
__
at the extreme west of a continent numbering some 200
millions of inhabitants; and the theory is that there is a
great and growing power which threatens to overrun the
continent of Europe, to inflict upon it utter desolation,
like that of the Goths and Vandals, to eclipse its civilisa-
tion, and, in fact, doom it to barbarism and darkness. If
that really be the fact, does it not behove the people of the
continent to take a part in pushing back this deluge of bar-
barism ? (Hear, hear.) I presume England does not pre-
tend to set up to be the Anacharsis Cloots of nations, to
represent everybody on the face of the.e ar th and to fight
for everybody. At all events if you do, Isupposeyou will
expect them to join you in fighting their baflee. think
that all this phraseology, rind declamation, which serves its
purpose at the beginning, and has raised a fiend that will
not be very easily laid, will by and bye disappear, when
we come to analyse more closely our position, and feel
the predicament in which wo are placed. But I take it
for granted that the object of statesmen is to befriend

Turkey against the oneroaehments of Russia, and thus to
raise a barrier against the acquisition of further territory
by that great empire. That was -the object announced in
the Queen's Speech,—to defend the Turks. Now, I ask,
have we not accomplished that object ? Have we not ar-
riviehe
dat that point when we can say, all that was promised
in
Queen's speech has been effected. Russia is no
longer within the pale of the Turkish territory. Russia, I
believe; has renounced all intention cf invading Turkey;
and now wo have, according to the nobles lord, certain pro-
posals made from Russia to serve as a basis of peace. What
are those proposals? In the first place there is to be a joint
protectorate, by the Fivis Great Powers of Europe, of the
Christians of Turkey. There is to be a joint guarantee for
the rights and privileges of the Principalities. There is to
be a revocation of the rule laid down in 1841 with regard
to the right of entrance of ships of war into the Black Sea ;
and the Danube is to be free to all nations. These are the
propositions that aro made for peace on behalf of Russia,
as we are told by the noble lord ; and what I want to ask
the house is whether it is not competent for us to offer an
opinion, at the present moment, as to the desirability of
treating on these terms. My first reason for urging that
we should entertain these terms is this :—We are told that
Austria and Prussia have agreed to those terms. Now,
Austria and Prussia are more interested in this quarrel
than England is—a groat deal snore than England ought to
be. On that point I quote the words of Lord Palmerston,
in February lest;—" It was of the utmost importance in
a matter affecting the great interests of Europe, that
though England and France were from the beginning
heartily, cordially, and entirely together, we should en-
deavour to obtain the concurrence of Austria and Prussia.
We knew that those two countries had an interest in the •
matter more direct and greater than had either England
or France. To Austria and Prussia it is a vital matter, a
matter of existence—because if Russia were either to ap-
propriate any large portion of the Turkish territory, or
even to reduce Turkey to the condition of a mare de-
pendent state, it must be manifest to any man who casts
a glance over the map of Europe, and who looks at the
geographical position of those two powers with regard to
Russia and Turkey, that any considerable accession of
power on the part of Russia in that quarter must be fatal
to the independence of action of both Austria and Prussia."
I agree with the noble lord in his view of the interest which
Austria and Prussia have in this war, but what I want to
ask is this—Why should we ask greater guarantees against
the encroachments of Russia than Austria and Prussia are
content with ? Austria and Prussia lie on the frontier and
on the very borders of the empire, which you say threatens
us with so much danger. You cannot have an invasion
of the Russians unless they pass over Austria or Prussia.
Is it likely, if all we hear about the danger of western
Europe being overrun by Russia be true that Austria and
Prussia would not be sensible of that fact ? And ought we
not rather to take as a proof that we have exaggerated the
danger and the power of Russia to invade western Europe,
the fact that Austria and -Prussia are not more alarmed
about it than they are? (Hear.) They are not concerned
about this invasion, or they would evidently be anxious to
join England and France iu the great battle with Russia,
in order to drive her back within her own dominions.
And if they are willing to accept those four propositions,
why should we not entertain them ? Let me ask any ra-
tional person— Do you suppose if Russia really meditated
an attack upon Austria or Germany, if she really-contem-
plated annexing a single province of that empire, even if ,
it were only one of the small places of 100,000 inhabitants
which are comprised in that family,—that the whole of
-Germany would not be united to resist it ? Is there not a
strong national feeling in that race ? Are they not nearly
40 millions in number, but are they not most brave,' most
intelligent, and have they not proved themselves the most
patriotic race in Europe ? And if they are not prepared to
stir, if they are satisfied with the propositions laid down in
this Vienna note, why should we be more in danger, why
should we stand out for further conditions, why should we
make great efforts in order to obtain securities which they
do not require? I may be told that the Governments and
the peoples of Germany are not acting in harmony. It is
dangerous for hon. gentlemen to assume that governments
do not represent peoples. How would you like the United
States of America to apply that doctrine to you ? But I
will venture to deny the ground on which that opinion is
formed. I have taken some trouble to ascertain what the
feeling in Germany is upon the war. If you could poll the
entire population of Prussia, I have no doubt whatever
that nineteen-twentieths of them would say that in this
quarrel England is right and Russia is wrong. (" Hear,
hear," from Lord John Russell.) And more, they would
say that they wish for the success of England as against
Russia. But, on the contrary, if you poll the same popu-
lation as to whether they would join in this war, and help
England with an army to fight against Russia—l believe,
from all I hear, that nineteen-twentieths of tho population
of Prussia would support their king in his present policy of
peace. And what is the advantage of having the opinion
of a population like that on your side in the quarrel, if they
will notjoin you in the war? For I draw a wide distinction
between an opinion formed in a country, and the people
going to war in support of that opinion. I have no objec-
tion to people in this country having a strong opinion
about Russia and Turkey ; but I think we have been too
precipitate in transferring that opinion into acts, and rush-
ing into war. Had England abstained from war, and been
content to occupy the same ground as Austria and Prussia,
I believe the result would have been that Russia would
have left the Principalities, and re-crossed the Pruth ; and
I believe that, without a single shot being fired, you would
have accomplished the object which you are seeking. Now,
what are the grounds on which we are to continue this war
when Austria and the German States are acquiescing in
these propositions ? Is war a luxury? People say, "Do
you deny the justice, the right of Turkey in this war?"
And it is assumed, if I admit the right of a country, that
I must immediately go to war to rectify a wrong. We are
much too hasty in doing this. If you say we are justified
in going on because a certain wrung has been done, and
(what used to be a cant phrase in Mr. Pitt's time) we want
indemnity for the past and security for the future—well
probably as to the abstract merits of the questions between
the Russian and the Turkish Governments, it would be
difficult for me to give a verdict favourable to Russia.
But are we to be the Don Quixotes to go and fight all over
the world wherever anybody is wronged? If so, where is
it to end ? In all quarrels there is a right and a wrong ;
we are often mixed up with one side or the other ; and if
we make up our minds to fight for the right, we shall never
be at peace. If we assume that the weaker power- iii in
the right, we shall often be in the wrong. I believe that
little nations, as well as little people, aro often very
troublesome. (A. laugh.) But, assuming that we desire
peace, and that it is desirable in the interests of this
country, that we should have peace, what ground is there,
on the score of honour, valour, or interest, to render it im-
possible for us to treat for peace on the terms mentioned
by the 'noble lord? The noble lord communicated that
proposition to us a few nights ago, and therefore it is com-
petent to us, to discuss the grounds .for continuing the
war. I maintain that neither our honour nor our interest
is involved in refusing the terms which have been pro-
posed. Our object is to protect our Turkish ally from the
attacks of Russia. The other question, as regards the fall
of Sebastopol, is not the point in question; it is a matter
of detail connected with the carrying on of the war. If
we took Sebastopol we would then treat of peace. I am
not going to argue against the power of England and
France. I believe that with their resources, properly ap-
plied, they are capable of doing anything. I admit you can
take Sebastopol ; that you can occupy ten square miles of
hostile territory ; that you may build a town there ; that
you may build it of marble, and surround it with a wall
stronger than that of China ; having the command of the
sea and almost boundless wealth, you may carry there what
reinforcements and provisions you please; you may do all
this, but still you would not thereby break the power of
Russia. All history shows that she is a young but vigorous,
and, if you like, semi-barbarous nation, with an instinctive
consciousness of her own strength; and do you think that
she will ever consent to make peace with you whilst you
hold a portion of her territory? (Hear, hear.) I will sup-
pose you have taken Sebastopol, and, that object accom-
plished, I ask you is it worth the sacrifice? (Hear.) That
is the question. (Hear.) Does any one doubt that oven
if you should subdue Sebastopol, it will cost the precious
sacrifice of the most valuable lives in the country ? I leave
the treasure expended out of the question. We can restore
that, but you cannot restore the valuable lives that fall
in battle in the Crimea. These men are probably the most
energetic and bravest—they have certainly shown the
greatest fortitude and endurance of any men that ever
left this island—you may sacrifice these men if you like,
but you are bound to consider *'~ether the object is great
enough to compensate for such a sacrifice. (Hear.) You
do not mean, I take it, to occupy the Crimea because you
have commenced the siege of Sebastopol. What, therefore,
is the object of taking it? The noble lord said that the
fall of Sebastopol—the stronghold of Russian power—
would go far to give that security to Turkey which was
the object of the war. I deny the proposition that Sebas-
topol is the stronghold of Russian power. Sebastopol is
indeed a strong fortress at the extremity of the Russian
Empire, and a visible sign of her power, but you will not
touch the vitality of that power till you in some way in-
terfere with the action of her government—till you strike
at her capital, or take away some of the fertile plains of
her southern territory, or make yourselves masters of the
rivers that flow into the Black Sea. Destroy Sebastopol
you may, but the probability is that in ten years Russia
will come to London for a loan, and build it up again
stronger than before. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) As for
the ships lying in Sebastopol, they are probably crazy
seventy-fours, and you could not do a greater ser-
vice to Russia than to destroy them, for she would
then build others of a better construction. In France
and England we do this with our own vessels. As to the
probable rebuilding of the fortress of Sebastopol his
tory furnishes a case in point. By the treaty of
Utrecht in 1713, the French king consented to
the destruction of the fortress of Dunkerque. England
sent over two commissioners to Pee the fortress dismantled.
The jetties were destroyed; a mole or bank was built across
the channel leading to the port. On two successive occa-
sions that treaty was renewed. A storm came on which
swept away the mole. A war broke out soon after between
Spain and England. Tho French Government took advan-
tage of the circuinstanze, and that fortress, which had been
raised under the direction of Vauban and fortified with all
the resources that art and science could supply, was
rebuilt and made stronger than ever. It was on record
that in the seven years' war, forty years after it was de-
stroyed, Dunkerque, for the purpose of aggression, was
stronger by sea and more formidable than it was pre-
, viously. More than 1,000 English merchant vessels were
taken by privateers which issued from that port, and their
value was estimated at 1,2e0,000/. Look at Cherbourg
again. In the middle of the last century we were in pos-
session of that port and also of Toulon. But the power of
France was not destroyed thereby. In the same way you
would nor destroy the power of Russia by the destruction
of Sebastopol. All that you would accomplish would be
to leave a rankling wound and venom behind which would
only determine Russia to reconstruct the fortress and make
it stronger than ever. Some storm would sweep away
your mole if you should build one, and this event would
be much more likely to occur in the Black Sea than in the
Channel. But suppose Sebastopol utterly destroyed, were
there no other places, on the Black Sea coast, which might
by art and money be converted into as strong fortresses as
Sebastopol ? The real way to give security to Turkey was
not by destroyiug Sebastopol, but by improving the in-
ternal Government of Turkey. And is the continuance
of the war likely to further that improvement ? I
believe that since the beginning of the war you have
done more to demoralise Turkey than could ever be
accomplished in time of peace. What is wanted to
revive Turkey is reform in her Government and her
administration, a united people, and the development
of her resources. She will not then present the odious
spectacle of wretchedness and impoverishment which she
now does. Then comes another question. You say that
you intend to make a treaty by which we will bind the
Five Powers together for the better treatment of the Chris-
tian subjects of Turkey. But have you considered the
whole extent of the consequences involved in that prin-
ciple ? You contemplatedoing by means of the Five Powers
what Russia did alone and by herself. Will not the critics
of the war in America and elsewhere say that we aro wrong
in going to war to prevent Russia from doing that very
thing i Web we contemplate doing by ourselves in conjunc-
t tion with others ? I can only say, Heaven help Turkey
- when she has the protectorate of Five Power instead of

one. (Hoar, hear, and laughter.) We are told by the
newspapers that iere is a mixed commission sitting in
Vienna—a kind of court of appeal iu the case of the Prin-
cipalities of Moldttvia and Wallachia. Is not this the very
principle of interference against which we are contending
on behalf of Turkey and against Russia? Would it not be
more statesmanlike, instead of appealing to claptraps and
to heedless passions out of doors, instead of telling the peo-
ple of this country that Turkey has made more progress in
the last 50 years than any country under the sun, to ad-
dress ourselves to the real task and difficulty of this ques-
tion—how you can best reconetructand improve the inter-
nal state of Turkey. That is what you will have to do.
Make peace to-morrow, and Turkey will fall into a state of
collapse. If you attempt to leave it, she will fall into a
state of anarchy and utter decay. The noble lord (Palmer.o
ston) jauntily told the house and the country on a former
occasion in the teeth of the statements of our own ambas-
sador, Lord Stratford do Redcliffe, and all the blue books,
and every person who recently travelled in Turkey, that
that country had progressed snore iu the last 20 years than
any other country in •Europe. Well, what does Lord
Carlisle, the most recent traveller in Turkey, say? (Hear,
hear.) Lord Carlisle bears the following testimony to
the present condition of Turkey and the Turks :—" But
when you leave the partial splendours of the capital,
and the groat state establishments, what is it you find over
the broad surface of a land which nature and climate have
favoured beyond all others, once the home of all art and
all civilisation ? Look yourself—ask those who live there
—deserted villages, uncultivated plains, banditti haunted
mountains, torpid laws, a corrupt administration, a dis-
appearing people." Everybody bears testimony to the
nuns effect. All agree that the Mahomodan population of
Turkey is dying out owing to their own nameless vices
(Hear, hear.) Their social state is not generally known'
because it is indescribable. Lord Carlisle restrains himself
from referring to their social condition. Dr. Halley stated
in Manchester that his brother, who was for 35 years phy-
sician to the embassy in Constantinople, told him that the
population of Constantinople, though continually recruited
from the provinces, had diminished during the last 20
years, and he attributed this to the indescribable social
state of the Turks. (Cheers.) Will you promote their
improvement by war ? From the moment you landed in
Gallipoli, when the energy and activity displayed by the
French was such that a poor Pacha, died from pure dis-
traction of mind—(laughter)—frein that moment to the
present you have done everything to humiliate, discourage,
and demoralise still further their population of the Turk-
ish capital. (Cheers.) Here is what a friend, a colonel in
the army, now serving in the Crimea, writes :—" We are
degrading the Turk as fast as we can ; he is now the scaven-
ger of the two armies as far as he can be made so. He
won't fight, and his will to work is little bettor ; he
won't be trusted again to try the former, and now the
latter is all he is allowed to do. , When there are en-
trenchments to be made, or dead to be buried, the
Turks do it. They do it as slowly and lazily as they can,
but do it they must. This is one way of raising the Turk ;
it is propping him up on one side to send him headlong
do wn a deeper precipice on the other." You have an
hospital at Scutari whore you have thousands of wounded
Englishmen who received their wounds fighting in the
cause of Turkey. What more natural than to suppose
that they would at once receive every care and at-
tention from the Turkish population of Constantinople,
amountingpersons. (Hear.) Yet everything
necessai to e°°
yfortho wounded has to be sent from this coun-
try ? (Cheers.) Can anything more clearly prove the utter
want of anything like administration or government in
Turkey ? Does any one suppose that if our soldiers had
been thus wounded in the cause of Prussia that the ladies
of Berlin, which had not half the population of Constanti-
nople, would allow them to remain without lint and other
necessaries? Would there be any want of nurses ? Is it
not the fact that we have been obliged to send out every-
thing? Either the Turks despise, detest, and spit upon us
for our pains, or they are too feeble and incompetent to do
anything for us. (Hear.) The people of this country
have been misled on this subject. The noble lord was, no
doubt, speaking his honest convictions when he made tho
statement he did about the great improvement of Turkey;
but if so the ignorance of one in his high position has had
a sinister effect on the public opinion of England • for it
was now the prevailing feeling in this country ;hat the
Turks were capable of self government, and that the
Ilahomedan population were capable of being re-
stored independenpe, and that if we fought their
battles t
againste
the external enemy, they would be able to
constitute a strong state, and carry on the functions of a
great empire. This is now the impression in this country,
nut a greater delusion never existed. (Hear, hear.) All
travellers, from Lamartine to the most recent, were unani-
nons in their testimony as to the decay and utter help-
lessness of the Turks. This, then, is the great difficulty
you have to contend with, and it is far better that you
should address yourselves to remedy it than that you
-hould waste the precious lives and treasure of the country
in the destruction of Sebastopol, which will not serve you
in the least, and which will be built up again in ten years
time. Besides, if you make up your minds to take Russia
into a partnership with you in the treaty, if you contem-
plate a quintuple alliance, Russia forming one of the
parties US it, what greater folly can there be than to go
‘ne fighting with that power which is, after all, the
next neighbour of Turkey. (Hoar.) I would rather leave
this question to be settled by the chances of peace than of
war. As ani llnstration of what may be done by peace, I
will quote one example. We engaged in war with Ame-
rica, in 1812, about the right of search and other questions
relative to the rights of neutrals. After being unable to
settle the question in that way, we made a peace, and a
treaty was concluded, in which there was no allusion made
to the subject matter of the dispute at all. (Hear, hear,
and a laugh.) The question of the right of search or the
rights of neutrals was never touched in the treaty. Peace,
however, was made, which has lasted now forty years.
What was the effect of this peace? In the meantime
America has grown stronger, and we perhaps have grown
wiser—though I am not so sure of that. (Laughter.)
Well, we go to war now with a European power, and we
voluntarily abandon those very belligerent rights which
led to the war of 1812. (Hear, hear:) Peace solved the
difficulty, which perhaps never would have been solved if
they had been at war to this hour. (Heir, hear.) -Apply
this illustration to the case of Turkey. Suppose you agree
to a peace, it is difficult to say what may happen to dis-
embarrass you from the difficulty. Your difficulty with
Russia has very mush c,f pereton ra difficulty. .Tnirezttr--
oeror of Russia is uo doubt a man of great energy—l
lhon I say of excited energy—a man of indomitable will,
which he was not able to control. Well, but the life of
every man has a limit, and his successor may have diffe-
rent views. It is because you do not give sufficient credit
to the course of events that you involve the country in
long and ruinous wars in order to solve the difficulty.
(Hear, hear.) Internal troubles may arise in Russia her-
self, or perhaps during the peace you may succeed in set-
ting up a more stable government and power in Turkey
than the present. If you enter into a quintuple alliance
you will have Prussia and Austria in conjunction with
France and England, taking care that the terms of the
agreement are carried out fairly. These are events that
may happen, and why not take the chance of them
for the accomplishment of the object about which you
are engaged in war ? Your honour is not in-
volved in the destruction of Sebastopol, but in the
withdrawal of the Russians from the Principalities, and
that has been effected ; you would not therefore sacrifice
honour by now
making peace. I believe that all parties
have had such a lesson from the war that they are not
likely to rush hastily into it again. (Hear.) I believe
Russia now thinks that the courage and self-reliance of a
free people are snore formidable than she calculated upon
—(hear, hear)—and that her semi-civilised population
would Snot be
anxious to meet the energetic people of
Western Europe again. (Hear, hear.) On the other
hand we have had some proof that it is no easy matter to
carry on war on the enemy's territory at a distance of
3,000 miles from home. (Hear.) I believe that all parties
and Governments want to get out of the war. The great
difficulty is that a spirit has been raised and expectations
held out by the unstatesmanlike course pursued by some
members of the Government, and especially by the noble
lord the member for the City of London, and the noble
lord the member foe Tiverton, which it may- be difficult to
satisfy or to allay. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentle-
man the Secretary at War said that if Sebastopol was not
taken in the first campaign it would not be taken at all.
Are yen
going to stake all upon one throw of the dice
And if yen do not take Sebastopol in the first campaign,
are you ?
England calculated on this. There stands little between
going to give it up? I don't think the people of
you and peace on the terms mentioned. Take counsel from
the hon. member for Aylesbury, who told you that Russia
would soon have 200,0J0 men in the Crimea. Ido not al-
ways agree with the hon. gentleman in his opinions, but I
am always disposed to listen to his facts. He tells you
the war is only beginning. Now, therefore, is the time to
accept moderate terms of peace. You may succeed. Do
not suppose that I wish to throw any discouragement in
the way
of France and England, for I see no possible
limit to their ewer if they desire to exercise it in the
duel which is going on in the Crimea. (Hear, hear,
hear.) But again I 'revert to tho question, what are you
to gal,_
to co ensate you for the ea rifle° of life and
coin
treasure? (Hear, hear, hear.) The hon. member
for Aylesbury tells you that next year Russia will
t
overrun the Turkish provinces of Asia Minor. That will
be an iudenanification to her for the fall of Sebastopol.
The Turkish army, he has told you, will melt away in the
next campaign when the Russians appear. Where, then,
will be the advantage in carrying on the war? Before I
sit down I beg to say
word on the condition of our army
in the Crimea. I have here a letter from a friend of mine
in the Crimea, dated the 2d of December. He says—" The
people of England will shudder when they read of what
the army has suffered. (Hear.) And then they will hardly
know one half. I cannot imagine that either pen or pencil
can depicture it in its frightful reality. (Hear.) The line
are greater sufferers than the artillery—though there is not
much to choose between them. On a stormy wet night,
when the tents were blown down, the sick, the wounded,
and the dying huddled together in a frightful mass for
warmth and shelter." (Hear, hear.) What a frightful
picture of the condition of our army ! I have heard
rumours that accounts have come of 100 men perishing at
night in the trenches. (Hear.) We have heard and know
that they have worked up to their knees in mud for twelve
hours a day, and have returned to no fire or shelter when
they left. (Hear, hear.) If you could consult these brave
men, and ask thorn what their wishes are, I believe they
would answer that their first and pro-eminent wish was to
do their duty, and to accomplish their mission. (Cheers.)
They would tell you that they avers sent to capture Sebas-
topol, and their first duty was to take it or to perish in
the attempt. (Cheers.) But if you were to consult the
hearts of these moo, and wished to know what the strong
and anxious hopes of these men have been even in the
mitlstof
is that t
he bloody battlesstruggle in
struggles of Alma, and Inkerman, I
believe it .which
they
have been en-
gaged may have the effect of restoring them again to their
They are, at all
mastery y of
events, entitled to the sympathy and consideration of the
hheoaorsteh
as
„a and homes.oountry. (H(
He
ea (Hear, )
eaorr.
.)
You must admit,
I am sure, whatever the result of the siege be, that
it willee involve
sacrificeimmfeolir"thema
a p
lives ; and, unless you can show that the object you have
to accomplish
in contendingan
cannot precious
other-
wise be obtained, then I say that you ought to encourage
Government to look with favour on
any propositions for
peace which come from the enemy, and even if make
n
a mistake in accepting peace, you will tyou
least have the
consolation of knowing that you have erred on the side of
humanity. (Cheers.)
Mr. CORRY had no intention of entering into a general
would
discussion on the policy of the war, but confine
himself to the bill, which was more particularly the sub-
ject of the debate. He had voted against the measure
from a conviction that it was mos, objectionable, not so
'
much on constitutional as on mural orounds. It' would
have a Very, bad moral effect both at home and abroad.
He never recollected a measure that was so unpopular
with all classes, and with all political persuasions. He was
convinced that if members had voted on Tuesday in accord-
ance with their convictions, and without regard to the
threats held out, the Government would have been left in
a minority. He did not mean to say that the house ought
never to consent to an unpopular measure, for it was some-
times their duty to stem the tide of popular prejudice.
He had held oiiice in the navy department with his right
hon. friend the_Secretaryfor War, and he knew from expo-

rienee that when they wished to hire 146t1 it was ti,08,0411
to pay the greatestrespect, not only to the feelings but to
the prejndi ,es of the seafaring population, and he thought
that they should be equally cat eful of the feelings of those
whom they asked to enlist as soldiers. When such a spirit
of martial ardour and enthusiasm pervaded all ranks it
was dangerous to do anything which might damp that ar-
dour. They had been told that as difficulties and dangers
increased, the martial ardour and enthusiasm of the people
had risen with them. That enthusiasm was to be attributed
to the purest spirit of patriotism ; but if the impression went
abroad there was no necessity for such exertions, that Go-
vernment had a large reserve of foreiguers whom they could
enlist if our people do not come forward, thelatter would not
be so ready to face the dangers and hardships of war. Tho
measure was objectionable, if considered. with respect to
the effect it would have on the continent of Europe, it
would be looked on as a confession of weakness, of a weak-
ness which had no existence in reality. The events of the
last six months had tended very much to raise the cha-
racter of England as a great military power. Without
any great previous preparation they had, by means of their
magnificent steam navy, conveyed an army three thousand
miles from home, and had actually landed ie. the Crimea
a larger force than that of the great military nation their
Ally. Government would have some excuse for their mea-
sure if they could say the recruiting power of the country
was exhausted, and that it was necessary to look to
foreigners. But it could not be said that the recruiting
power of the country was exhausted when not a single re-
giment of the Irish or Scotch militia had been embodied.
He would wish the house to consider what effect this change
in the constitution of the British army would have on the
confidence which the French army now felt in it. That
mutual confidence had been one great cause of the success
of the Allies in the Crimea. The French could not have
the same confidence in a baud of mercenary foreigners, as
in the English, Irish, and Scotch, whose valour they had
seen tried in many a hard-fought field. He opposed the
bill because he considered it dangerous, unnecessary, and
impolitic.
A messenger from the Lords was introduced, who an-
nounced that their lordships had agreed to the Militia Bill
without amendments.
Mr. R. J. PHILLIDIORE could not but admire the
moral courage of tha hon. member for the West Riding
(Mr. Cobden), but he was surprised that a person of his
his acute mental power did not see that the arguments of his
speech had afforded the most complete answer to the object
of it. A nation so great and powerful as ours could not
afford to be mean ; but even if it was to be reduced to a
matter of calculation, he was prepared to show that they
had adopted the safest, as well as the noblest course, in de-
fending Turkey against the aggression of Russia. Those
members who supported the Government were charged
with having left their convictions in one lobby and carried
their votes into another, but he would suggest to hon.
gentlemen opposite whether a private individual might not
deem it his duty to submit his judgment to the authority
of those who from their position were possessed of official
knowledge and information on the subject. He did not
look on the measure with eyes of affection, and regretted
its necessity ; but he placed confidence it:be statements
of her Majesty's Government, and of the Commander-in-
Chief, and that gallant officer had declared it was necessary
as a means of affording relief to the troops in the Crimea.
Mr. SANDARS referred to a petition which the right
hon. member for Buckinghamshire had presented a few
nights ago from the borough of Wakefield, which be had
the honour to present. That borough was situate in the
centre of the West Riding, and he believed that the peti-
tion which had been adopted at a large meeting expressed
the sentiments not only of the districts, but of the whole
country. If time had been given, the table of the house
would have been covered with petitions against the bill.
Mr. DIGBY SEYMOUR said the hon. gentleman who
had last spoken had said so much respecting a meeting of
his constituents, that it had compelled him to rise in order
to present the house with a counter fact. Now, he had
had to appear before his constituents at Sunderland, and
at the meeting there were more than 2,000 persons as-
sembled. The result was, that all present had raised their
hands in favour of his conduct in supporting the present
bill. Those 2,000 persons were not wanting in intelligence
and ability to judge on the matter. (Hear.) Ho should
not have addressed the house had not the hon. member
who had last spoken asserted that the expression of the
meeting of his constituents was the general opinion of the
country.
Lord LOVAINE most support the opposition to the bill,
despite the arguments he had heard from the other side of
the house. He could not see any splendid effort for the
mistakes of the past in the passing of a bill which was
derogatory to the honour of the British soldier and the
nation to which he belonged. He should• like to inquire
on what principles the enlistment would be carried on in
Germany ; for, from that country, as far as he cotrld learn,
the troops were to be drawn. They had not been told
anything about that. How was the enlistment to be con-
trived? Ho know not if it were thought that men could
be procured from those emigrating ; but, if so, the scheme
would fail. If from the German ranks, that would fail
likewise. The men, he thought, would be those who had
not shown a proper respect for the laWs of their country,
and were willing to fight for another. Ho should be un-
worthy of ever having stood in the ranks of those now
serving before Sebastopol if he suffered it, even for a mo-
ment, to go forth that foreigners were ever to be regarded
as equal to them in courage and good conduct. As far as
ho could learn, no foreign regiment we had ever engaged
—always excepting the Hanoverian Legion, who were
lighting for their own country—could be relied upon for
the same amount of service as the British troops. (Hear.)
Sir E. PERRY said that, although he felt that the argu-
ments on the subject matter of the debate had been com-
pletely exhausted, he yet wished to protest against the
language in which hon. gentlemen on the opposite side of
the house, and-on that, his side, too, described the men
whom Government proposed to enlist. He considered that
the terms in which hon. gentlemen had stigmatised those
nmenow vvretanst 1
in
root
tboe quo
omit
i on!, a
inafew
words,
assembly.s, t
he speech
of o ul d
the
hon. member forithe West Riding (Mr. Cobden), and much
as he admired his talents, and coincided with his views in
politics, he must say thatthe impression which that speech
had made on the house was similar to that which it had
made on him (Sir E. Perry), and that was, that it was ex-
tremely inopportune. Unless he was mistf.ken in the
40,. ....pre....b in a sexy state of affairs, when he
ccroitnsail siterpeodtihoan, h
that EogelatioudNg Vhal
that all their energies should be directed to one
object—to relieve the honour and interests of the
country from being subjected to a crisis such as had not
been yet known, and that all discussions as to the origin of
the war, or even the conduct of the war, were out of place.
Her Majesty's Government were now holding out their
hand to the German feeling that if they got them to enlist
under our banner, we should give to that great nation an
opportunity of placing themselves on a level with the
other great Powers of Europe. (Hear.)
Mr. EVELYN trusted the Government would not pledge
itself to an indefinite prolongation of the war. It would
be most impolitic to continue a war which might last for,
perhaps, 10 or 20 years, if theyhad all the objectsfor which
they went to war offered. If, for the purpose of degrading
Russia, they were to continue raising their terms during
the progress of the war, they would be only prolonging the
conflict without any definite advantage to the country.
Mr. BENTINCK was anxious to state briefly the reasons
which would induce him to give his vote against this mea-
sure. He fully admitted the importance which must at-
tach to a vote upon the question, and an attempt had been
made to give additional importance to the vote to which
they were about to come, by a threat thrown out by her
Majesty's Government that the rejection of the measure
would lead to their resignation. He was not at all alarmed
by that threat. It had been too often made before to pos-
seas the merit of novelty; and so far as he could gather the
feelings of the house and of the country, neither the one
nor the other would very much lament the loss. No man
was less interested than himself (the hon. member) in the
struggles of party warfare, but if a vote of want of confi-
dence in the present Ministry had been brought forward,
he would have given it his support without the slightest
hesitation, because he believed, whatever their ability
might be, it was impossible for such a body of men—linked
in a.coalition without any political combination—to go-
veen this country with any advantage. (Hear.) He fully
concurred with what fell the other night from the
hon. gentleman the member for West Surrey (Mr.
Drummond), and he regretted extremely that the
house had not been called upon to cane to a vote upon
that question. He believed it was the opinion of the coun-
try generally that not ouly the great sufferings of our
troops in the Crimea, but also a great portion of the losses
which they had sustained, might be attributed to want of
energy and ability on the part of those who had the con-
duct of the war ; and therefore he (the hon. member) re-
peated his regret that the house had not been called upon
to come to a distinct vote upon the subject. He fully con-
curred in the majority of the arguments which had been
urged against the measure.
Lord EBRINGTON said that he approached this mea-
sure with considerable doubt, as ono that had justly ex-
cited the constitutional jealousy on the part of the people
of this country, but he was loath to believe that his noble
friend the Lord President, or the noble lord the member
for Tiverton, or his noble friend Lord Lansdowne, would
embark in any measure which prejudiced the liberties of
the people of Englind. He was satisfied that the bill
might do some good ; and eveli if it should fail of its ob-
ject, that at all events it would do no harm. He was sur-
prised to bear the last speaker putting forward the
abandonment of principle on the part of members of the
present Government as a reason for opposing this bill, for
he (Lord Ebrington) thought he recollecteda Government,
(the Government of Lord Darby) in which principles very
different from each other were held in the same Cabinet—
free trade and protection being left an open ques-
tion. He was therefore rather surpris n 1 to hear the hon.
gentleman speak in that way. Thank Heaven he was in
no way responsible for the principles of the Government,
for he had belonged to a party which did not require a
change of principle in that way. In hie opinion the ques-
tion before them was not whether the Government had
done all that could be done for the war, but whether the
measure before them was advisable or likely teS prove use-
ful in the present state of our affairs. But many hon.
gentlemen in opposing tho bill, had forgotten what they
had heard so often, that this was a war of principle and of
national good faith undertaken in defence of the liberties,
of Europe. He denied the apathy of Europe on the subject,
for he believed with the hon. member for Davenport, that
the Germans, differing from their monarchs and the Rus-
sian sympathies of their aristocracy, end that a large part
of the Sclavonian population sympathised in the objects
of this war, viewed as England viewed it, a conflict
and a struggle in the cause of liberty and civilisation in
Europe. Ho was sorry that any man should be stigmatised
as sicarii and cut-throats, and should be denied that com-
forting and elevating assurance which results from fighting
in a cause which they believed to be just. He believed
that the stream of emigration from Germany was occasioned
not so much by the denseness of their population as by
their impatience of the rule under which they had been
condemned to dwell, and he knew no better initiation into
the English love of liberty than that they should fight side
by side with our soldiers.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN said he would not have risen if any
other Irish member. had exhibited any disposition to speak
on the question ; but in the absence of any such hope, and
after the eloquent speeches which he had heard against the
bill, especially from the hon. member for Enniskillen (Mr.
Whiteside), and after the vote which ho himself had given
the other night, he could not do other than state his reasons
fer giving that vote. This -was not a party question. The
question was whether, at a period when we had no oppor-
tunity of finding among our militia trained soldiers capable
of assisting in the war, all assistance from any quarter was
to be denied to, those brave men most properly eulogised in
that house, who were fighting in defence of the liberties of
Europe? Ho was surprised to hear the number of antagonistic
arguments brought forward in support of the same conclu-
glen. The member foethe West Riding trusted that neither
Germans nor Swedes would be engaged to fight for us, be-
cause we wore not a military nation, for we were a com-
mercial nation and a naval power, and could protect our
Manchester manufacturers by means of our ships. Such
was his utilitarian view. But the member for one of the
divisions of Surrey wished to have an overwhelming force,
I and then by his vote denied the Government so many even
as 10,000 soldiers. The position. which they ought on this
occasion to take up would be, (either by an express vote of

Waitt i..f Van .4ettige to ile..el itl-A. t+s, iinsliesk Itai 4:1;41 4,1A4:04, ilt2 CAOk l•Ne 3 lrt 1.14 ieoei Li 4 -w.:44. 4 gt-Wit
varlireent unfit to carry on the war, because they were of Oingliod would rise up 103 one Wean 4aLainat them.
Russian in their sympathies; or, if they thought' them a Sir J. FITZGERATJ) intimated that, for the reasons
responsible body, why deny them the power whiil they he had stated on a forme evening, lie should give his sup-
were required to exercise, and for which power they meant port to the bill.
to hold them responsible? He said he was not a Conser- ! Lord J. RUSSELL, who rose in obedience to loud calls
vative, although, from want of other arrangements, he was
obliged to sit on that side of the house. (Loud laughter.) from his side of the house, said—Mr. Speaker, I can
It seemed to him a strange argument against the bill to hardly think it. necessary to enter again into the argu-
call the men mercenaries, and yet to encourage the increase i Intents which have been urged in favour of this bill ; for
of
bounty, as though a pound made a patriot. (Hoar.) 1 while I have no doubt the gentlemen who have spoken to.
But the hon. member for the West Riding said that we had ; night are thoroughly persuaded of the soundness of their
no interest to fight for in this war, and asked why we
objections, it appears to me, after hearing their speeches,
should send out-throats—condotticoi to cut the throats of
the people of Europe ? He (Mr. O'Brien) said that his oh- i that these speeches amount to nothing more than a repur
ject was not to cnt the throats of all Europe—(laughter)— I seance to, and a declaration against, the employment of
but his object was to save the throats of our men in the 1 foreign troops. Now, I confess at once that if we had
Crimea by this measure, seeing that we had not a timely 1 250,000 British troops, I should think that number quite
supply of trained men. (Hear, hear.) sufficient to carry on the war at the commencement, and
Mr. COWAN said the position of the house on this ques-
tion reminded him of a scene in which he had mingled very i that it is quite unnecessary to resort to the assistance of
recently at a fire, which threatened to destroy a poor man's 1 foreign troops. But when I state the position in which
property. The first engine, though it was public property, are in, lam mot with two different answers. The first
was in bad condition, but all laboured to melee it useful v
1 lise that of the hon. member who moved the rejection of
and, by the help of another engine belonging to the hon.
member himself, the fire was got under. But only suppose 1 the bill. After having stated all the objections to the
they had wrangled ever the engines, instead of employing I employment of foreigners, and alluded to what I men-
them, then the property must have been destroyed. And 1 tioned with regard to the number of recruits, and the na-
such was their position flint night with reference to the
war. It was his opinion that in resisting this bill the Op. I tore and age of those recruits, he says, "How can you be
position were acting a part very unworthy of the gallant so imprudent as to inform the Emperor of Russia of the
heroes who were so valiantly fighting our battles in the deficiency in our army ?" Well, sir, if the house had keen
Crimea. It was to be regretted that there were no military readily disposed to place the powers sought by this bill is
officers of experience in the house to testify to the necessity the hands of the Government, I would not have been
of the measure. forced to state the circumstances I did. (Ministerial
Mr. A. SMITH said that the house was of one accord in cheers.) I think it is rather unfair—after urging every
desiring that this war should be carried on with vigour and objection to the bill, and
endeavouring to rouse popular
determination, but he could not think that object would opinion against it
—to say, when plain facts are stated as a
be attained by the adoption of such a bill as the present. reason in its favour, "How' can you be so imprudent as to
True, we were engaged with a Power which had gigantic tell the truth ?" .ohe 1n
resources at its command, but he was not on that account spoke last but one gave -i;n andanswer of a very different
o
to be less confident of the result ; for he believed that su- kind. He said, "If we cannot
periority of numbers was more than counterbalanced troops, let us perish."
T hat, again, is a somewhat extra-
go on without foreign
by the determined spirit of a free and independent people. ordinary answer—and I confess I cannot agree with the
Nor did he think that any vassal army could long maintain. hon. and learned member. (Laughter.) I say it is objec•
the struggle against such gallant men as won the heights tionable, no doubt, to be forced to ask for the aid of fo•
of Alma, and gained the glorious victory of Inkerman. reign troops in addition to our 150,000 men . but, at the
Believing that it would be little less than an insult to send same time, Ido not wish to see England perish. (Cheers.)
o
to the reinforcement of such soldiers the hireling troops of For my part, lam ready to avail myself e
every means I
the petty German sovereignties he should not hesitate to can for the successful prosecution of the war. (Hear.) I
vote against the bill. were terminated
am not ashamed to own I wish the war
Mr. LAING said he saw no reason against the em to with success to ourselves. (Hear, hear.) it appeared
ment of foreign troops. Was it not true that the sympa-- to me that it was advisable for the Government to pro•
thies of the German people were all along with the Western pose this measure to the house ; lent, says the hon. and
Powers in this war? The fact had been admitted by the leaned gentleman, " this is a most unconstitutional
Russian party in Prussia ; for they said, if the heads were practice, and ought not now to be adopted." Now
counted, the majority would be in favour of the war. He it seems to me that there never was a case in which
could not bring himself to vote against the measure, feeling it was more legitimate for the Ministers to say,
"If we
as he did strongly in favour of it. ' cannot have these powers which we consider necessary for
Mr. W. E. DTJNCOMBE -had no confidence that the
Government would carry on this war vigorously. What the successful prosecution of the war, let those conduct the
war who think they can do so without the aid of any
was the course which they had hitherto pursued ? Why, foreign force." It is asserted that in making such a de-
instead of making the preparations which were necessary claration we are acting a most unworthy part; but what
for the war, they had always been " too late" in their ope. would be said of us if we attempted to carry on the war
rations. The result had been most unsatisfactory, and they without the powers we now require, and failed, and on
had nothing to show the country but an ill-defined treaty being afterwards reproached, we turned round and ob-
with Austria, which had been laid upon the table a few served, "Itis no wonder we did not bring the war to a
nights ago. He asked the Government to explain to Par- successful issue because you refused us those powers."
liament why it Was that they were always the last in- (Hear, hear.) It appears to me that the arguments on
stead of being the first in commencing operations—why this subject have been very nearly exhausted, and that the
they had not been energetic and active from the first? The repugnance of Iron. gentlemen opposite to the bill is not to
right hon. baronet the member for Droitwich had the be overcome. I give them all credit for sincerity of feel-
other evening clearly pointedout objections against the Aus- ing that repugnance, but Ido think, in point of argument,
trian occupation of the Danubian Principalities. That oc- considering the position of our troops, and taking into ao-
cupation had evidently paralysed the operations of Omer count what the Secretary at War has stated, and what I
Pacha, and the result had been that the army of General have been forced to disclose, that there are really no good
Dannenberg had been allowed to march to the Crimea. If grounds against the employment of these foreign troops.
the Government had any influence with the Austrian Go- But the inconsistency of those who argued against the bill
vernment, they should have exercised itlong ago, andhave is not to he slighted. They say, "These men you intend
proceeded to carry their policy into effect. And again, why to take into your service) are mercenaries—they will be
did they not make representations to the Turkish Govern- induced to enter your employment from mercenary mo-
ment ?It was quite evident that the expedition to the Lives—only think of engaging men to fight in your cause
Crimea had been begun and carried on without adequate for a consideration." Then, they add, " Rely on the pa-
means. If the Governmenthad shown more energy- and triotism of the people." Now, we say, doing full credit
determination, tho army in the East would have er - to the enthusiasm of the people, that we cannot find a suffi-
ceived stronger reinforcements, and in leas time. Now, cient number of properly qualified recruits. (Hear, hear.)
what was the measure introduced into that house ? Why' It is next said—" Give recruits a larger bounty than is now
one which would enable the Government to hire foreign Paid." Although they object to employing foreign troops
mercenaries—a measure which was most distasteful to the for a consideration, they say—" In entering upon a great
people, and which was quite unnecessary in itself. He be- struggle like this, fur God's sake don't scruple about in.-
lieved the feelings and spirit of the country Pressel forward creasing the bounty by 30s. or 405." (Hear, hear.) Well,
as one man to assist in the war. This measure was hostile sir, I say, giving every credit for the conscientious and
to the feelings of the people, and was opposed to their pure nature of the opposition which has been offered, I
interests, and to the power which this nation possessed. cannot see the necessity of entering further into this argu-
(Hear, hear.) ment. But there is a question which bas been raised by
Mr. V. SCULLY said the question before the house was tho hon. member for tho West Riding, into which Ido
the third reading of the Foreign Enlistment Bill—whether not wish to enter at length, but I think it advisable, as
t
they would give her Majesty power to enlist foreign the question has been started by him, to give some ex-
planation before the debate is closed. The hon. gentle-
soldier; to assist her own soldiers in the field of battle ?
He should vote for the measure on two grounds—first, man said he would not go into the origin of the war, and
because the men were required to oppose the large numbers yet his whole argument was founded on a supposed origin
of the war, which is not the true origin. He supposed
of men who could be brought into the field by the Emperor
that my noble friend tho Secretary of State for the House
of Russia, who, it should be remembered, did not consult
a body of men like the House of Commons upon the subject Department and I were disposed to enter into a war of
of the war, but who, being the Executive himself, issued propagandism ; ho then made a very just and true
what orders he thought proper. Another reason why he reflection on the evil of entering upon a war for mere
should vote for the bill was, that, were ho the Executive motives of chivalry, and said we had engaged in the
himself, he should most certainly not hesitate as long ashe present struggle of Christianism against barbarism without
had a shilling in his pocket, to procure the assistance of all any call upon us to do so. But this war originated in an
the foreigners he could get ; then why should he refuse to attempt at aggrandisement by Russia. The attempted ag-
the Government that which he should do were he in
grandisement by Russia began in a mostunjust and unjusti-
power. The hon. and learned gentleman then referred to a fiable aggression, and it would have ended, if not resisted,
letter which he had himself addressed about six weeks ago in the possession, by Russia, of Constantinople, and in a
to the Chief Secretary for Ireland respecting the conduct Preponderance, therefore, on her part, which would have
of the Earl of Bandon, the Lord-Lieutenant of Cork county, been dangerous to the state of Europe. If that was the
and the sectarian feeling he had shown in officering the legitimate cause of the war, surely it was justifiable to sty
militia with Tories and Protestants, whilst the great bulk that if our enemy were successful barbarism would tri-
of the men were Catholics. He would not read to the unaph ; and, on the contrary, that if our enemy were de-
house the answer he had received to that letter. (Cries of feated, civilisation would have the victory. (Hear.) This
" Oh," and " Read, read.") No, he would not read it, for is no mere abstract theoretical defence of civilisation. The
two reasons —one of which would probably satisfy those war itself was not a thing so unforeseen. And is it a war
hon. members who called upon him to do so, namely, that which is so entirely without a motive ? So far from it,
lie had not received any answer. (Laughter.) The other some 25 years ago the Emperor Napoleon predicted that
reason was, that the louse would excuse him from reading the next great war which would take place in Europe
a private document. (Renewed laughter.) After some would have its beginning in an attempt by the Emperor of
further remarks, the hon. and learned gentleman said he Russia to possess himself of the Turkish empire, and he
would give his vote in favour of the third reading of the said if anything could unite the two nations of England
bill. , and France it would be the cause of resisting such an ag•
as tigat. But there is one circumstance, and a

Mr. I. BUTT—The proposal of the Government to have
10,000 foreign troops in this country meant that they were
to have 3),(100 or 40,000 of those troops in the service of
the Queen abroad. Now, to that scheme he entertained
objections which reflection had rendered of an insuperable
character. Nor did he think the argument that it was
unconstitutional to briUg foreign troops into this country
had been sufficiently answered. The constitutional prin-
ciple was, that the Crown could not bring foreign troops
into this country without the consent of Parliament. But
if the consent of Parliament was a more matter of form,
the constitution was violated. He contended that neither
Parliament nor the country had been fairly or duly con-
sulted, and it was almost without precedent, if not entirely
so, that a measure of such vast importance should neither
be adverted to in the Queen's Speech, nor be the subject of
a message from the Crown; and this, too, whilst the
noble lord the President of the Council was abundantly
candid in revealing to the whole world the plan of the Go-
vernment regarding the attack upon Sebastopol. How
could this measure remedy the condition of our troops at
Balaklava ? Was it any proof of the wisdom, vigour, or
capacity of the Government that they had left our brave
troops ill provided—without tents—without warm cloth-
ing—nay, he feared without even the necessary supply of
food ? (Hear, hear.) Was that house justified in placing
confidence in a Government which had suffered such things
to occur—was it upon the ipso clixtit of a member pf that
Government to pass without due deliberation so important
and so distasteful a measure as this—was it to acquiesce at
once in the request of an Administration whose war depart-
ment had been so scandalously mismanaged? Those foreign
hirelings could not be of any use to remedy the present un-
fortunate condition of our troops in the Crimea. Those
troops would maintain their ground, notwithstanding the
disadvantageous position in which our own Government
had placed them, until help was obtained from a less
questionable source. Was it not shameful that, with the
resources of England at the disposal of the Government—
our being within 16 days' sail of the Crimea—with a peo-
ple enthusiastic iu carrying on the war with vigour, and
ready to make any sacrifice—with the seas freed from the
presence of an enemy, so that any craft might without fear
navigate those waters—with the immense maritime force
of this nation—that our army, wbu deserved so well of us,
should be almost deprived of the common necessaries of
life? (Hear.) Tho enthusiasm of the nation was almost
unexampled. The mechanic and the labourer contributed
their utmost mite towards the relief of those who were
wounded, or to the assistance of the widows of those who
died in the service of their country. Ladies forgot the
elegances of polished life to act the part of common nurses
to the sick or wounded soldier—(hear)—and yet with all
these resources, with all this aid, with all this enthusiasm,
the Government wished to force this bill for obtaining the
aid of foreign hirelings through Parliament. The hon. and
learned gentleman then cautioned the Government, lest the
sympathies of those foreign troops might be snore German
than English when in our service, and so, in the change of
circumstances, force us to disgraceful and disastrous com-
promise with the enemy. Did they think they would not
be in the power of Austria if she could by intrigue or in-
fluence control those German States, whose men we should
have taken ? He thought Ministers had made one great
mistake iu trusting Austria ; and he thought they made a
great mistake when they allowed Austria to occupy the
principalities; but they should take care that they were
not now giving Austria the key of the British camp. By
the course Ministers were now adopting they wero de-
moralising war. There was a personal risk and sacri-
fice which men made to support a cause which they
thought right ; but to carry on war as now proposed by
Ministers aggravated all the evils which war carried
with it. Did they think their German Legion would
be popular. in England ? Ho believed they would not—
that they would be odious to the people, and, therefore,
for the sake of maintaining amity with the German States
he would now repudiate this measure of Ministers ; and he
wished now, at the last moment, they would withdra* it,
slid advise the Sovereign to trust in the fidelity of her own
subjects; for he believed with the poet that—
" Naught can make her rue,
If England to herself be true."
They had now unexampled enthusiasm about this war.
Would they have it if this measure was passed? There never
was a time when this nation should be more united than
now • and he hoped the time was coming when they would
forget all distinctions of English, Irish, or Scotch, and they
should be all one really united nation. Why should Mi-
nisters throw down this apple of discord among them? By
an unconstitutional threatof resignation they were forcing
this measure upon the house—awl what did that mean
That they would abandon the vessel of the State among
the breakers upon which they had steered her. He never
gave a vote with a clearer conscience, or one less influenced
by anything except the honour and interestof this country
than the vote he should give against the passing of this
odious measure. (Hear.)
Mr. MICHELL should wish to know what this war was
carried on for. He should wish this house tot be ventila
. ed
I would be in
upon that subject. (Hear, and a laugh.)
the recollection of the house that it was stated by the
noble lord the President of the Council and otherseancuasb thatuse
the passing of the Pruth would be regarded asD:
; but now the Russians had repassedt wits a war, not
ethe
This was a war of religion. (Laughter.) t
between Turks and Russians, but one Ise ween Romanism
and Protestantism. (Loud laughter.) He would state his
reason for entertaining that opinion—every Catholio mem-
ber voted with the Ministry upon the bill. (Continued
laughter.) The cause of the excitement which had arisen
in Ireland on this question was the fact of its being known
that the Ernperar of Russia had whipped tome nuns. !(Re-
newed laughter.) Tho present quarrel took its origin from
a difference between the Latin Church and the Holy Places.
(Cries of Question and oh, oh.) There could be no doubt
that the struggle now going on was one in which the Greek
Church was opposed to the Roman Catholic Church. Had
hon. members seen the letter of the Secretary of War to
Miss Nightingale? (Laughter.) All the persons who had
gone out with that lady were Roman Catholics. (Divide,
divide, and Question.) The question was, whether we
were to have foreign legions in this country ? He believed
if we had bodies of foreign soldiers parading the streets of

gression
most remarkable circumstance, with regard to which Na-
poleon has proved himself to be in error. It was supposed
by the Emperor Napoleon that when Russia would make
that attempt, and England and France would join to op-
pose her, that Austria, also having an eye upon the spolia-
tion of Turkey, would be a confederate with Russia, and,
by joining her army with her, would baffle any resistance
that could be br„eght against them. But, to the honour
of Austria, this is not the case. The Emperor of Austria
has been no party to this aggression ; on the contrary, he
has had the wisdom to see that, whatever share of the
spoil he could get, his own empire would become so en-
feebled by the success of Russia, that it could not exist
many years as an independent kingdom. And, sir, what
was the proposition made to England—not for the parti-
tion of Turkey, but supposing she should fall to pieces ?
It was that the Danubian provinces- should be put under
the sole protectorate of Russia—that England should have
a certain share of the spoil (Canal, I think)—that there
should be extension or existence of free institutions in the
provinces inhabited by Christians—and that the kingdom
of Greece should not be increased. It was, in fact, for an
increase of Russian power with a careful bargain that there
should be no increase of those free institutions—civil pro-
gress and education, which were to be expected from the pro-
fessions of the Sultan. We declined this attempt to spoliate
the territory of the Sultan, and I stated what were the
reasons which induced the Government to come to that
decision. I even went on to flatter the Emperor of Ruse
sia, and to praise what I thought to be the wise, prudent,
and judicious policy wuich had influenced him for many
years past. But now war has taken place, and we are
asked what are the terms upon which we will treat for
peace. The hon. gentleman the member for the Wed
Riding says that, as the Principalities are not occupied by
Russigar,aanntdea, w
that as thehasave
nothingdemands made on the Sultan have
been
more to do than to sign a
treaty of peace. But, sir, I say that, having gone to a
large expenditure of blood and treasure to defend the in-
dependence of Turkey, I think it would be most unworthy
to place things in the same state as they were in two years
ago, and thus to leave the Emperor of Russia in possession
of all the means of subduing Turkey, which he had two
years ago, without the existence of any combination of
strength against him. (Hear.) Well, having said thus
much, let us go into the general nature of the terms upon
which we think there may bo a termination of the war.
I quite agree with the hon. gentleman, who says, that if
we can get an adequate security for peace, we ought not,
for a mere vague and undefined object, continue the
miseries of war. The Government have no wish, no de-
sire, to continue the war for any vague or undefined pur-
poses, or, as the Russian organs say, to dismember the
Russian empire and to deprive her of a great part of her
territory. I must say that the four bases appear to me to
have been moderately worded. The first relates to the
Principalities which have been invaded, and by which
means, contrary to the treaty of Adrianople, the road to
Constantinople has been opened to Russia. It is pro-
posed to place the Christian inhabitants of these Princi-
palities under the guarantee of the Five Great Powers of
Europe, so that if Russia should, at any future time, make
any aggression upon them, they would at once receive
the assistance of the four powers to repel it. This is one
security, and Austria and Prussia have agreed to join in it.
The next basis is the opening of the navigation of the
Danube, which has been closed by the unfair conduct of
Russia, contrary to the provisions of the treaty of Vienna,
and for the selfish interest of Russia. If any security can
be given for this object it cannot fail to he for the advan-
tage of Europe. The third is one which I admit is of some
difficulty, and it refers to the revision of the treaty of
1841, and the consideration of the words, "in the interest
of the balance of power." Now, the moaning of those
words is obvious. As matters stood previous to the pre-
sent war, none of the European Powers could send their
ships of war to the Dardanelles without the permission of
the Sultan ; but the Emperor of Aussie. having a great
harbour and fortress in the Black Sea, in which theret
iarenk
18 or 20 sail of the line, might at any time avail himself of
a favourable wind, and comedown with 30,000 or 40,000
troops, occupy the Bosphorus, and destroy Constantinople
with his guns. Now, after what has been seen, we h
it would be an unsafe position in which to leaveSebacat of
Sebasto-
pol, and I think, having gone to war to obtain security
for the independence of Turkey, it would be an
the grossest folly if we were to consent to a treaty of peace,
if Russia, having, in six months after the treaty was
signet, picked a fresh cause of quarrel with Turkey and in
a few days destroyed the independence 'which we -a!re now
seeking to secure. The fourth condition is also one of some
difficulty, and the hon. gentleman the member for the
West Riding has referre:l to it at some length. He says,
and says with truth, that Turkey has beenmisgoverned!.
and that every traveller gives an account of the desert us-
tuns of the country. But, sir, I
quite agree with the state-
ment made by the noble lord, the Secretary for the Home
Department, that Turkey has made great Pr°greas of late
years. But how has this change been effected ? It is to
be traced to the change which has taken place in the habits
of the Christian subjects of the Porte—
Mr. COBDEN—I spoke of the Turks.
Lord J. RUSSELL—And I am speaking of Turkey. The
Christians form a great part of the population of Turkey,
and my argument is, that the Christian Powers, and Eng-
land more especially, have impressed upon the Porte the
advantages of a just administration of the laws among his
subjects, The Sultan has adopted in practice those just
ideas, and the consequence is, that while there are many
Turks who have been in England and France, and who
know the manners of these countries, the greater part of
the Turkish population has remained in ignorance ; while
the Christian subjects, who, instead of being treated as
formerly, with indiscriminate injustice and oppression,
have made greet social progress, and enjoy, as Lord Car-
lisle states, many religious and civil privileges formerly de-
nied to them. Then, what I look to is, that this progress
will go on, and that the Sultan will give such assurances
to the Christian Powers of Europe add we shall see before
long an equality among the subjects of the Porte, and that
persons of ono religion shall enjoy equal privileges with
those of another, (Hear, bear.) This will resto.re the
prosperity of the country, which will then exist a vith a
general diffusion of thought and education, which we!knoir