The Sun.
London, England, 1853-07-05 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 5, 1853,

(BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.)

Closing Prices
Yesterday.

Business done
this day.

SEVERN STAKES.

Octavia
Osbaldiston

26 --

Five ran.

5 - 5i

9i - 104

SPORTING INTELLIGENCE.

9 7 dl

10-
St.
St.
20
10

15
50
St.
16

17
all
10
100

100
100
100
100

all
100
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15

21s.

100
20
11
100

100
all
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1100
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20 - 22

3i -- 2i d
100 -- 101
66i -66 i
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19t -20 A

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8 - 9

51 -
12 - 12i1

lli - 12

Q - 9
71 - 72

50 - 55
70 - 72

23. -- 30

84i &SAI
53 551
133 - 135
109 110
88 —88 i
100 105
17 18 p
76 764
—44 d
3g —34 d
14 —l5

sa si
2 p
1031 1(41
1114 1144
1— 14p
881 891
54 d
44 3d
11 13
18 20
2!_ 291

--ti
- 704
40 - 421

51 - 57
i- i p

2i - 3

8 - 9
49 - 51

32i
33 ii d

5 •
84 - Eit

47i -48 i
92 - 94
58 - 62
58 - 62

68 72
14 idis

17 19
84 94
13j 144
3j -34 d
19 21
69 70
35i 364
13 -- 14

23 - 25

2a 2
14t 154
9 94
32
10 104
4 d par

67 - 68
8 -
28 --
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1004

5n 3
133
87i si

(BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.)
NEWMARKET - (THIS DAY.)
ARRIVALS.

10
all
li
all

Pm
7G k
11i
14i

104 3i
1144 14

89 8

28i
70 I

36 5i

67i 8
lli 12i
57.

108.1

34t i

25i i

35} 41

SHARE MARKETS.-(TBIS DAY.) I WORCESTER RACES.
(THIS DAY.)

July Stakes—Astolfo, Calliope, Marsyas, Mirabeau,
Druid, Haze, Student, Brigliadoro, Macduff, Caliban,
Delia, Quince, Mountain Hawk, Spinaway. Run at
3.45.

EVITERI AL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY.)

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.
CRIMINAL LAW IMPROVEMENT.
Lord LYNDHURST asked the noble and learned
lord on the woolsack when the committee on the bill for
the improvement of the criminal law would meet again ?
The LORD CHANCELLOR said the committee
stood over for the convenience of the Lord Chief Justice.
Lord BROUGHAM hoped an early day would be
fixed, as it was of great importance that the committee
should finish its labours as early as possible.
The Earl of DERBY presented a petition from medi-
cal men of the town of Croydon, pray:ng for legislation
for the improvement of the medical profession, and from
Staines praying for the abolition of the duty on the ex-
por';ation of British salt to India.
THE SCOTCH BANKRUPT LAW.

Lord BROUGHAM rose, according to notice, to pre-
sent a petition from merchants and traders of the city
of London who were concerned, in the trade with Scot-
land, on the subject of the Scotch bankrupt law. He
should certainly feel much disappointed if their lordships
did not favour him with their attantion while he slated

some matters respecting this petition, for it must be ad-
mitted that, generally speaking, though petitions were
respectfully received by their lordships, there was a great
indisposition to attend to anything respecting them un-
less they had to touch upon some personal or party mat-
ter, and then there was no lack of attention either to
the petition or the motion made thereupon, or any mat-
ter mingled with it. He was sorry, however, to add
that not only was this a petition, but it was a petition
on a subject which was in itself not very likely to be a
lively one. It was upon the subject Scotch bank-
ruptcy. But he should first state to their lordships who
the petitioners were, and what their interest was in the
subject before he proceeded to give their ssatement of
their grievance and their suggestions for the remedy of
that grievance. The petitioners represented the first
houses in the city of London in every respect, and the
first houses concerned in the trade of Scotland. There
were upwards of 200 of these firms, the partners in
which had signed this petition, and when he looked at
the names of these firms, many of them he recognised as
well known to him as being among the first in the city
of London, and others he knew as holding that position
by their description from persons intimately acquainted
with them. To show their importance, it might suffice
to state that five of the houses out of the 200 repre-
sented by the petition carried on business with Scotland
to the amount of considerably upwards of 1.000,000/.
sterling a year. He had a petition to the same effect,
complaining of precisely the came grievance, from par-
ties not in London, but connected with and carrying on
trade in Scotland. This was a petition from Sir James
Campbell and other office-bearers in the Glasgow and
West of Scotland Guardian Society for the Protection
of Trade, and who, as such, were interested in the pro-
per administration of the estates of bankrupts and in-
solvents. Every one who was acquainted with Glasgow
was acquainted with the house of Sir James Campbell
and Company; and this society was composed of mer-
cantile houses who were all the great traders in the
city of Glasgow. He had also a petition from a cor-
porate body (the directors of the Chamber of Com-
merce and Manufacturers, estab'ished by royal charter
in the city of Glasgow, under the seal of the corpora.
tion), and signed by the chairman and secretary. Another
petition with which he was intrusted was from the Mer-
chants'-house of Glasgow, also a corporate body, signed
by the Lord Dean of Guild, and sealed with the seal of
the corporation. He had also two petitions, to nearly
the same effect, from different parts of England ; one
from Bradford, from the town-council; and another
from Carlisle, the merchants and manufacturers of which
city, from their proximity to Scotland, were deeply in-
terested in this matter, a. :sing out of the constant com-
mercial intercourse between them and the northern parts
of the United Kingdom. From Huddersfield he had a
petition, signed by 23 merchants and manufacturers,
and from Caper Fife a petition signed by seven procu-
rators practising before the Sheriff and Court there, who
were parties interested in the proper administration of
the estates of bankrupts and insolvent 3 in Scotland,
and in the assimilation of the bankruptcy and commer-
cial laws throughout the United Kingdom. He be-
lieved that a vast number of other petitions would very
soon be presented to their lordships, all upon the same
subject, all complaining of the present system, and a'l
craving a speedy and effectual remedy. The case was
shortly this—and he would solicit the attention of his
noble and learned friends while he alluded to it, for it
must be admitted that though they were not bound to
listen to all the suggestions which mercantile men might
give for the reform of the law relating to bankruptcy,
and though their lordships were bound to exercise their
own discretion according to the best lights they could
obtain, yet when the question was as to the sufferirga
which were experienced under the present state of the
law, they were bound to listen to those who were the
sufferers, and who addressed their lordships for the pur-
pose of detailing their grievances, because it was the
most important fact in the case that such grievancei
existed, and that such sufferings were by the petitioners
endured. Now, the petitioners set forth the manner in
which the law affected them, and he should endeavour,
as distinctly as he could, to explain the state of the law.
In 1831 a great change took place in England on the
subject of the bankrupt law' as was well knowc to h's
noble and learned friends, a ndthat change was deemed to
be necessary by the evils of the previously existing system.
Now, suppose that instead of the evils now compls ined of,
and which led Parliament to reform the law—suppose it
had been the case in England tbat the assignees of a
bankrupt not only were apt to forget their duty, to go to
sleep over their duty, and not only to gather in and re-
alise the bankrupt's estate, but that they had an indirect
interest in not doing their duty. In one instance, he re-
membered, it had been found—and this was one great
ground of the change made in England in 1831—that
there was occasionally an indirect interest on the part of
the assignees inconsistent with their duty; and where a
bankrupt had funds it was found that there was a tendency
to allow the proceedings to linger on the part of the
persons intrusted with these funds. In Scotland, how-
ever, the matter was a great deal weree. There was not
only the same chance of neglect, and the same tendency
on the part of these persons to slumber over their duties,
but the trustee was there a paid officer, which the En-
glish assignee never was, and he was interested directly
in delay by receiving payment. The trustee received a
commission, which commission was awarded to him in
the manner he would presently describe, and the conse-
quence of his being a paid officer their lordships would
soon perceive. Suppose another difference had existed
between the English bankrupt law in 1831 and the law
as it at present stood in Scotland. Suppose the assignee
had not only been the administrator of the funds arising
out of the estate, but had been also vested with judicial
functions ;, and bad had to adjudicate upon the claims of
creditors as well. Yet that was the case in Scotland at
this instant. He did not believe a system could have
been more cunningly devised to frustrate the great object
and views of the equal distribution of the bankrupts'
estate and the prevention of fraud and of delay—he did
not think anything more cunningly devised to accom-
plish these two ends could have been conceived than the
system which had long prevailed, and which still, he
was sorry to say, almost in the full force of its abuses,
continued to prevail in the bankrupt law of Scotland.
First, there was the .choice of the trustee. For this
officer no qualification was required. He ought to be
both an accountant and a judge. Instead of this, how-
ever, he was required to possess no learning whatever—
no qualification of any sort. But there was one re-
quirement—the trustee must have a majority of votes.
Every kind of means, approaching even to corruption,
were consequently used for the purpose of obtaining
office, and after that, as in the case of an election for
the other house of Parliament, the return of the trustee
was capable of being set aside. As there was always a
competition for the office—always what might be called
a contested election—so there was, he would not say al-
ways, but very often, a petition, as it were, against the
return of the trustee ; and an application to the Court to
set aside that return, led, as in the case of a Parliamentary
petition, to " a scrutiny,"—namely, a scrutiny of the votes
of the creditors by whom the trustee was elected. The
case would, under such circumstances, be heard before
the sheriff, who was the judge-ordinary of the district,
from whom there was an appeal to the Court of Session,
and from the Court of Session to this house. The true.
tee had judicial functions. He had to decide upon the
claims of creditors, but from his decision there was again
an appeal to the sheriff, from him to the Court of Ses-
sion, and from the Court of Session to this house.
The trustee was never a lawyer, but it happened gene-
rally that he was a trader, though he was sometimes
not even that. He ought to be both a lawyer and an
accountant, while it often happened that he was neither
one nor the other. As the office of trustee was a paid
one, there were many who devoted themselves to the
post for the emoluments to be derived from it, and thus
was created a class of accountantOsuch as existed a few
years ago at Guildhall, and whom his noble and learned
friend the Lord Chief Justice would, if he were pre-
sent, recognize under the description of accountants who
could give no account. In his judicial capacity, when
sitting to decide upon the claims of creditors submitted
to him, questions of the greatest difficult 7 broughtsometimes
eefies
bqefueosrteionhsimof—esqUmiteyt,iinaned constantly q
s questionsofuestions of fact—
in all which the trustee acted both as judge and jury.
Those who were acquainted with the state of the Scotch
law would know that the practice in the courts there
was unhappily different from our own—that the principle
of fusion had been adopted there, and that there was no
difference between the court of law and of equity. This
trustee, however, was in all cases ignorant of the law,
so that when a very important bankruptcy occurred he
was aided by an assesor, who was a lawyer. This was
of course all at the expense of the bankrupt's estate,
and therefore at the cost of the creditors, and lie him.
self had known an instance not long ago—not more than
20 or 25 years since—of a very important bankruptcy
in which the trustee was aided by a learned person who
was afterwards a judge in the Court of Session—Lord
Cunningham—and they sat for many days, and he
might say weeks, in unravelling the, circumstances con-
nected with this bankruptcy, eminent counsel being
engaged, with appeals possible at every stage and at
every decision given by the trustee, and with ono ap-
peal of which he had reason to know something, for
it did not stop with the sheriff, but went next to the
Court of Session, and afterwards to their lordships'
house ; he referred to the remarkable case of " Grant
and Baillie," the only instance he remembered in
which the judges of England were called in to de-
cide a Scotch case. By the bill which he (Lord
Brougham) had introduced power of appeal was only
given to the Court of Session, for he looked upon the
appeal from the trustee to the sheriff as entirely useless.

Under the present system three of the creditors, or agents
of the creditors, were chosen as commissioners. These
commissioners had no qualification, and were supposed to
be a council, by whose advice and opinion the trustee
might if he thought fit, be ruled, though he was not
bound to be so. The natural consequence was, that
when the trustee considered there was a responsibility
involved in the case he would call in the council, but
when he thought he could do without them he would
not call them in. One function of great importance wr,s
performed by these commissioners—they audited the
accounts of the trustee and awarded his commission, so
that his salary was so far in their hands. Now, the
trustee was frequently enabled to exercise a great voice
in the choice of the commissioners ; the kind of votes
by which they were elected very much depended upon
him ; and the consequence was, that in many cases i*z
was found that the commissioners, owing their election
to the trustee, were disposed to favour him in auditing
his accounts and in fixing his payment. There was on
part of the existing law which very much facilitated any
improper proceedings on the part of the bankrupt and
trustees. Not less than eight, though not more than
14 days from the period of sequestration, as the bank
ruptcy was called, were allowed the bankrupt for ;,11
these contrivances, and for fraudulent purposes, if 1;
was inclined to devote it in that way. There was
power of taking possession of the bankrupt's proper--
until eight days, and it might be 14 days, after ti.
bankruptcy. In the meantime the bankrupt COl7.
make away with his property, and, if a dishonest mai.,
he might occupy that time in crewing votes on fraudu-
lent or fictitious claims so as to elect a trustee of 1,;;,

own nomination, in giving illegal preferences, and i:,
making away with and concealing his property. Nov, .
it was quite bad enough that there should be an elee
tive court of justice at all, but it was monstrous tina
there should be a court of justice appointed by electioa
in each particular case—and that, be it remembered,
not a court of arbitration appointed by the choice of the
two parties, but by a number of creditors, with all the
evils incident to such a system. By that body, and in
that way, was the court in each instance constituted.
He had referred to the possibility of appeal. The ap-
peal might take place in the case of the choice of th
assignee, or trustee as he was called in Scotland, and
perhaps two or three years, as had been known to be
the case, elapsed before the choice was confirmed. A"
this while the unhappy creditors, who had or ought t )
have no interest whatever in the matter, were kept out
of their rightful claims. They did not care one rush
which of the two rival candidates to the office was suc-
cessful ; all they wished was to have the business done.
The petitioners stated how much they suffered undo
this system. " The season," they said, " for which th
bankrupt's goods were manufactured passes away, the
articles get out of fashion, and a fall in the market
often takes place which greatly diminishes the value o:
the bankrupt's property." Another evil was, that th;:
bankrupt was often disposed to offer a composition wits
which the creditors would be satisfied, but, until the
choice of the trustee was finally confirmed, that compo,:-.-
tion could not be accepted, a nd in the meantime the bank-
rupt otherwise disposed of money with which he had
intended to satisfy the claims against him, and the cre-
ditors were often entirely frustrated in their endeavours.
With regard to the system of class certificates whi&l
now prevailed in this country, instead of adopting the
English change in the law in this respect, and taking
from the creditors the whole of the power of granting
certificates, this power remained throughout Scotland 711
the hands of the creditors, subject to all the evils pointed
out by the commission of 1839 and 1840. By dint of
canvassing, by private interest, and not unfrequently
by direct bribery, the bankrupt now gave certain powers
to certain creditors for the express purpose of obtaining
their vote. Again, no provision was made for the public
examination of the bankrupt. The old act said he should
be examined publicly, but, practically, the bankrupt
was never examined in public, but always privately.
There was also no examination—at least no effectual ex-
amination of the creditors themselves. He would fai
hope that the petitioners were mistaken in the state-
ment that, under the present system, there was no pro-
vision for the examination either of the bankrupt or of
the creditors. He thought that must be a mistake,
because under the act of 1851 he believed provision was
made to enable the court to examine the bankrupt,
and, in fact, to compel his examination. Upon all these
grounds the petitioners prayed their lordships to adopt
the bill which now lay before them awaiting a second
reading—a bill which he had the honour of introducing :
and they added, also, that the course which that bill
took relating to arrangements in cases of insolvency wk-,s
advisable and ought to be adopted. The Faculty of
Advocates having bad under their consideration 6.3
Lord-Advocate's bill on the subject, disapproved a goc
part of the bill, expressed no opinion a 4 to whether
went far enough or not, but added that they did appro'. •
one portion of the bill, which, in his opinion, was th.:
only step of any importance in the measure--namely,
that of giving immediate possession of the bankrupt's
papers and books. He was bound to say that the me: -
sure which he brought before their lordships, and in L. -
half of which these petitioners addressed the house, th
other petitioners joining in that prayer, had been mo
carefully prepared by persons well versed in the Scotch
bankruptcy law—by practitioners both at the Scote'i
and English bars ; and the measure had been by them

prepared with the greatest possible knowledge of all the
details. He had only to mention the name of
John Gilmour to prove that the bill had received atten-
tion from one possessing a perfect knowledge of the law
on the subject, and a complete acquaintance with th 3
practical working of the present system. It wes
said that the change which had taken place in ti.e
English law, and to which he had alluded, was le -s
applicable to Scotland than England. There might
be other parts of the law than those he had mentioned
in which the Scotch was more to be approve_)
than the English law. What was the moral of thi,
It was, that the whole matter should be carefu: v
considered by those commissioners who had been fee
cently appointed to take into consideration the assimii:-
tion of the mercantile law in different parts of the United
Kingdom. That commission proceeded from the Go-
vernment, as their lordships were aware, in consequen.
of a great conference held last year, at which, in the
first place, the noble lord on the cross bench (the Ezel
of Harrowby) presided, and over which, secondly, le:
(Lord Brougham) had presided, composed of represee-
tatives from all the great trading towns in Englaiel,
Scotland, and Ireland. The idea of that conference
had, he believed, arisen from the formation of differcet
societies for the amendment of the mercantile lave
particularly in some parts of Scotland. A vt- y
learned person, Mr. J. Stewart, having been in Scot-
land, had had communications with those parties, lied
he rather believed it was in consequence of the com-
munications between him and some of those bodies in
the west of Scotland that the conference was appointed.
It had given him (Lord Brougham), he must say,
great satisfaction to preside over the conference
question, because a more moderate and more rational
assembly of persons could hardly be conceived upon
any matter so interesting to the feelings of the indi-
viduals themselves. They were all interested in the
trade, commerce, and manufactures of the different
towns from which they came, but there was no tone
of violence, no headlong steps taken towards a change
no desire of change from the mere love of chance,
but, on the contrary, what was done was done in the
most rational and temperate manner he had ever
heard. Another gentleman, Mr. Leone Levi, who Lad
devoted a large degree of attention to the subject of the
continental mercantile law, had promulgated the idea of
an international commercial code, and a noble duke tied
his Royal Highness Prince Albert were understood to
support the opinion he expressed, that the state of the
world was ripe for the formation of a general interna-
tional commercial code. Others, however, had had some
doubts about this, and had thought that, at all events,
we should begin more humbly, by considering whether
or not a commercial code could be established for the
United Kingdom, leaving other countries out of the
question,—at least for the present. The conference had
bound itself to that opinion, but without giving up the
hope that they might live to see a more general union
among the different nations of Europe on this subject,
and the formation of one general international commer-
cial law amorg all civilised nations. The differences at
Present existing between the various codes were not very
great, but where those differences existed they were v ry
embarrassing. He ought to apologise for having so long
detained their lordships, but he had deemed it his drty
to the petitioners who had intrusted to him the pre, Ai-
teflon of the petition to state the facts which he
laid before the house. He did not intend to press e.or-
ward this session the bill to which he had alluded, I eit
lie considered it would be in its proper place i f refei 1
to the Assimilation Commissioners. (Hear, hear.)
CHURCH BUILDING ACTS AMENDMENT
BILL.
On the motion that their lordships do go into c
mittee upon this bill,
The Earl of HARROWBY said that as the second
reading bad passed without observation, he wished to
state 'briefly the objects of the bill. These were to oin
number ; the first being to give facilities for the aggre-
gation of small livings in populous cities and. towns. In
the city of London, for example, there was an intineuse
accumulation of churches, forming no doubt .a great ar- •
chitectural attraction to the metropolis, but doing l'ttle
for its spiritual welfare. Even at the time of the great
fire, there were far more churches than were necessary
for the wants of the inhabitants. The first act wilich
passed for rebuilding the city restricted the number of
new churches to 37 ; but three years afterwards, the
number was extended to 51 ; but no fewer than -t of
the old ones were suppressed, such parishes and ene ow-
ments being united to others in their neighbourhood.
The number of churches, however, was s till very con-
siderable. In one instance there were 710 fewer than
five c hurches to serve an area and populat ion not I:.:•ger
than that of Grosvenor-square, and several. other site ear
cases !night be named. Now the populati on of the City
had n Jot only diminished, but the number of those who
remained within its precincts on Sunday had decre,fsed
to an. oven larger extent, insomuch that there were now
many .churches in a position similar to that in Ireeinil,
where Dean Swift used to commence the service with
" Dear ly beloved Roger," there not being a congreogiad-
tion la age enough to justify his use of the: plural l;
" bretl eren." (A laugh.) This did not arise from any
bad fa eling towards the church, or from a:ly indieeosi-
tion clip the part of the clergy to do their .duty, for the
same -thing had happened to dissenting me siting-houses,
eight. or ten of which had lately been :than doped. and
pulled down, or converted to other purposes. The
truth was that the causes which had in ancient tines
caused vast populations to be pent within walls, had

long tsince ceased, and London was now fast, beco,aing
a city of shops and warehouses. (Hear,. hear.) The
questi on then, was, whether it was not batter that the
churd hes and endowments should follow• the people I
(Heal hear.) The present law gave tbe bishop the
power r to order by a faculty, a church tab( pulled down,
and :3 ISO to unite contiguous benefices; but in the f,',rmer
case. the process was inconvenient, and in tl to latter tale ne-

cessity for the benefices to be contiguous, would interfere
with the end in view. The first eight clauses then proposed
to deal with this part of the subject. The rest of the bill
treated of patronage. The noble and learned lord on
the woolsack was greatly concerned in this matter, fo
he held the patronage of no fewer than 754 benefices, the
total annual value of which was 190,0001., besides t
alternate presentation of 23 benefices, the total value
which was 7,8771. A vast number of them, however,
were of an insignificant and wholly insufficient amount ;
and the bill would, therefore, enable the noble lord to
part with a portion of his patronage, with a view to
parishes being consolidated with other. Powers. would
also be given to various companies to part with their
patronage, not for any pecuniary advantage, but for the
purpose of improving other livings, and so creating new
parishes with efficient means for the cure of souls. He
was aware that some persons thought it was iniproper
that a layman should interfere with church matters at all
but such would not be the opinion of their lordships ;
for the laity were as much a portion of the church as the
clergy. In the present case he had been a member of a
commission recently appointed to consider this question,
and the bill had met with the unanimous sanction of th,.;
commissioners, including the Archbishop of York, th
Eishop of London. and another right rev. prelate.
The Earl of PO WIS said it was hard to criticise any
measure relating to the church that emanated from is
noble lord so well known for his judgment and zeal in
such matters as the noble earl ; but still he thought the
measure was open to grave objections. If this bill passed
in ii s present shape they might destroy an old church,
and convert it to secular purposes, and a bishop might
be scoffed at for one day consecrating a church for re-
ligious purposes for ever, and the next day signing a
v4arrant for the destruction of a church and applying the
site to secular purpose!.__

The Bishop Of LONDON said the bill was the result
of a commission issued by her Majesty to inquire into
the best means of subverting large parishes, and of
making more effectual provision for poorer beneaces.
The noble earl needed no vindication for bringing in the
Mil, but, if one were needed, it would be found in the
f..ct that he brought in the bill, not on h;s own respon-
sibility, but on the responsibility of the commission to
which he had referred, It was a matter of notoriety
that the churches in the city of London were far more
numerous than the wants of the community required.
That had been a matter of remark as long as he could
remember. He thought therefore they were abundantly
justified in bringing in this bill. He hoped their lord-
ships would allow the bill to go into committee.
Alter a few words from the Marquis of BATH and the
Earl of MALMESBUEY, their lordships went into commit-
tee on the bill, and the first five clauses were agreed to.
On clause 6,

The Earl of POWIS moved the omission of the
clause. The clause gave power to sell the site,and the
burial-ground attached to a church. He thought such
a power ought not to be given.

The Bishop of LONDON supported the clause.
The Bishop of SALISBURY agreed with the noble
earl (Malinesbury) in many of his observations ; but he
thought he was pushing his feelings to a degree that
was opposed to the public interest. It was not possible,
in a metropolis like this, that a church should remain as
a ruin, and a burial-ground as an unoccupied site. He
hoped the noble earl would not continue his opposition.
The Earl of DERBY said he did not think the
analogy which the right rev. prelate bad drawn was cor-
rect with regard to the power given under the Sewers'
Act. In that case the bishop was only empowered to
consent to what the Commissioners of Sewers thought
desirable. He entirely sympathised with the views of
the noble lord behind him as to the opinion of the public
with regard to the pulling down churches and the re-
moval of burying-grounds. The case presented by the
right rev. prelate with respect to the City of London
specially was peculiar ; but the bill was not framed to
meet the exigencies of the City only, and such consider-
ations must give way, and the minor evil must be en-
dured, when the object was to confer a gain on the
public generally. He suggested to the noble lord that,
omitting the metropolis, in all other towns the consent
of the municipal corporations should be obtained before
the church was pulled down or the burial-ground
abolished. The right rev. prelate could have no wish to
exercise an inviduous power, and it was clear that his
object was to be effected in a legitimate way.
Some conversation took place on this suggestion, and
it was understood that the Bishop of London expressed
his readiness to adopt it, but the Earl of Harrowby
objected to accept an alteration which would alter the
principle of the bill.

- The amendment was rejected without a division, and
the clause was agreed to.
The remaining clauses were agreed to, and the house
resumed.

EXCISE DUTIES ON SPIRITS BILL.
Earl GRANVILLE moved the third reading of this
bill, and stated its general principles.
Lord MONTEAGLE took the opportunity of stating
that he viewed this bill, in its principle and application,
with great alarm. He approved of this effort at equal-
ising the duties on spirits in the three countries, but
he feared they were playing tricks with the revenue, and
he doubted the wisdom of reductions in England in
order to benefit Ireland and Scotland. As it stood, it
was a bill to lose and not to gain revenue. The spirit
duties of Ireland was one•fourth of the revenue of that
country • and there ought to be no risk of such a sum.
wouldHe now proceed to call their lordships' attention
to the authorities upon which he based his opposition to
the bill. In 1822, the duty upon Irish spirits was 2s. 6d.
a gallon, but in that year the Government of Lord Liver-
pool appointed a commission to consider the whole sub-
ject, and in 1823 that commission reported that experi-
ence in the remote parts of Scotland and Ireland proved
that it was impolitic to impose a high rate of duty upon
spirits. The duty was accordingly reduced, and the
effect of that reduction be would show in a very few
words. In 1823, when the high duty was in force, it
was paid upon 3,300,000 gallons of sprits; but in the
year following the reduction, the duty was paid upon
6,690,000 gallons. In the year 1830, Mr. Goulburn re-
pealed the window duty in Ireland, but added Is. to the
spirit duties, and the effect of that measure was to in-
crease the amount of duty paid, and this circumstance
induced Lord Grey to appoint a second commission to
inquire into the subject, who reported their concurrence
in the opinion that illicit distillation uniformly kept pace
with the advance of duty. The duty was accordingly
reduced a second time, upon the recommendation of
Lord Althorp—no mean authority—and the result of
that alteration was a rise in the revenue, not to 10,000,000
of gallons, which the Government anticipated, but to
12,000,000 gallons. From that period the duty went on
increasing up to 1840, when his right hon. friend, Sir F.
Baring, felt it to be necessary to add 4d. to the duty,
and Mr. Goulburn, who had the experience of 1830 be-
fore his eyes, warned Sir F. Baring of what would be
the consequence of mating this addition t 6 the duty.
Nevertheless, the 4d. Was. allowed to pass, and so mat-
ters stood until 1842, when Sir R. Peel, undismayed by
the previous evidence, put a further duty of ls. on, but
the result of this experiment was so disastrous, that in
1843 Mr. Goulburn in the one house and the Duke of
Wellington in the other, came down with a proposal for
the repeal of the additional duty. So much then for
his authorities so far as the revenue was concerned ; and
now he would endeavour to point out in two or three
words the effect which an increase in the duty invari-
ably bad upon crime. In 1834, when the high duty
was in operation, the number of criminals in all the
prisons in Ireland, charged with offences against the
excise laws, was between 400 and 500, but in 1842,
when the duty was low, the number was only 268.
The noble lord having gone into other figures to show
that the tendency of increasing the duty was to add
o crime, went on to remark that the excuse in the first
instance, to which he had referred, for augmenting the
duty, was the repeal of the window duty, while in 1842
Sir Robert Peel imposed the increased duty as a jus' la-
cation for not extending the property tax to Ireland ;
but on the present occasion it was just the reverse.
Here the Government did not propose to commute one
tax for another, but in addition to increasing the duty
on spirits they proposed to extend the income tax to
Ireland as well. Nor was that all, for it seemed they
were to have a succession tax too, and on the whole he
must say that, however beneficial the budget might be
to England, it certainly would press most unjustly upon
lrelaed. Relatively the figures stand thus—the soap
and assessed taxes remitted in favour of England
amounted to 1,443,0001. ; while the new taxes imposed
upon Great Britain, which would consist of an increase
in the Scotch spirit duties and the income tax. would
amount to 40,0001.—and, therefore, so far as Ireland
was concerned, the positive relief would be 1,040,0001.
Now compare this with the state of the account so far
as it related to Ireland. The only remission in favour
of Ireland was 245,0001, of Consolidated Annuities :
while, on the other hand, it was proposed to extend the
property tax to Ireland and increase the spirit duties,
making iu all 658,0001., so that while they repealed
taxes in favour of Great Britain amounting to 1,040,0001.
they proposed to impose new taxes upon Ireland amount-
ing to no less than 433,0001., which was a manifest in-
justice. However, he would not detain their lordships
longer upon this subject, but apologising for having
trespassed so long upon their patience, he would simply
content himself with again protesting against the passing
of this bill.
The Earl of DERBY could not agree with his noble
friend in thinking that his observations were out of
place even at that hour of the evening, or in the then
thin state of the house, for excepting, perhaps, the latter
portion of his noble friend's speech, which referred to
the relative amount of taxation to be imposed upon
England and Ireland by the budget, and which he
thought was not necessary at this time, he was bound to
say the remarks of his noble friend were justifiable.
These remarks went to show most clearly that the prac-
tical effect of an increase in the duty was a. correspond-
ing diminution in the revenue, and he entirely concurred
with his noble friend that this impolitic addition to
the duty would not increase the revenue ; but in
the present state of the house, and considering that
this bill was one to which the Government attached
considerable importance, believing, indeed, that it
would increase the revenue by 400,000/., he 'was un-
willing to do more in oppposition to the measure than ex-
press his entire concurrence in the views and opinions of
his noble friend. (Hear, hear.) He should be sorry to
ace a bill which had passed the House of Commons, and
to which the Government attached considerable import-
ance, rejected by so small a number of their lordships ;
but he must at the ssme time be permitted to say that
it was that consideration alone—for he thought the
measure a most mischievous one -- which prevented him,
while it no doubt precluded his noble friend from taking
the sense of the house with regard to the passing of this
bill. He was, however, for the reasons he had stated,
disposed to leave the matter in the hands of the Govern-
ment, believing that like former governments they
would eventually find it necessary to retrace their steps
when they found, as they certainly would do, the name
evil consequences flowing from their measure as lusd in-
variably attended all similar experiments in this three.