The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-05 00:00:00

minute which it was now proposed to cancel against all
the imputations which had been brought against it. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. PHINN regretted the timid and hesitating tone of
some portions of the noble lord's speech, and expressed his
belief that, when the measure came to be placed before the
public, the people would be found outrunning the Govern-
ment, and showing that they were far in advance of them
on the subject. (Hear, hear.) The question naturally di-
vided itself into two heads—upon ono of which alone the
noble lord had touched on that occasion—upon the other,
and that the most difficult point, the noble lord had been
entirely silent. With respect to those who were willing to
participate in the benefits of education, there could be little
difficulty ; but there was another class to which he begged
to invite the attention of the house and the Government,
and that was the class who did not want to participate in
those benefits, and with respect to whom it was worthy of
consideration whether some compulsory education should
not be provided. (Hear, hear.) It must be familiar to all
who were engaged in the administration of criminal justice
whether as advocates or judges, in both of which capacities
however humbly, be was himself engaged, that there was
growing up, in the midst of our civilisation, a class of peo-
ple more like wild beasts than men, a class almost savage
in their habits, and he might say, in almost every respect,
degraded to the rank of savan•es by their ignorance of social
religious, and intellectual I4oWledge ; and if the Govern-
ment were not prepared to apply some strong measure to
this state of things the end would be----though it might not
be in our time—that there would be a frightful disorgani-
sation of society. (Hear, hear.) No one indeed could ad-
vert to the vast number of persons roaming about our
streets without any other means of support than that of
preying on their fellow-subjects without seeing that their
case presented a frightful question. He, for one, would
be the last to propose that the Legislature should med-
dle unnecessarily with the independence of the subject,
but if they had a right to say to the owners of pro-
perty that they were not entitled to hold teat
property without maintaining those who were unable
to maintain themselves, he held that they had equally
a right 'to say that they were not entitled to hold
that property without attempting to bring to the know-
ledge of the Gospel, and of their social and moral relations,
those who were not provided for by their parents or
friends. He hoped, therefore, that the Government—and
if not the Government, some old and experienced member
of the house—would be prepared to invite the attention of
house to this great question ; and he felt sure that, how-
ever stringent the measure that might be proposed, and
whatever expense it might involve, the people generally
would approve of it, and be ready to make the greatest
sacrifices in its support ; for, looking at it in a mere pecu-
niary point of view, he believed it would be found amply
to repay the expenditure. (Hear, hear.) He hoped that,
if not this year or the next, at an early period, the noble
lord would be able to present to the country a great, sound,
and comprehensive system of national education, which
would be the most enduring monument of his name, be-
cause exceeding in its ultimate results those political advan-
tages which he had been in instrumental in bestowing upon
the nation.

Mr. WIGRAM observed, that it appeared to him that
the general measure of education ',proposed by the noble
lord well deserved the consideration and favour of the
house, because he understood that the purpose of the noble
lord really was to aim at extending a system which had
been already tried in the country, and which had produced
very great and admirable results. (Hear, hear.) Those
results had been attained consistently with the mintenauce
of peace and goodwill among O. classes, and any measure
which aimed at extending such a system would certainly
meet with his support.
Mr. BLACKETT said there was only one point to which
he wished to advert, and ho must say he regretted that the
noble lord did not allude to a university which wanted as
much reform as Oxford or Cambridge—he meant the Uni-
versity of Durham. He believed that institution had suc-
ceeded in a very few years in reaching the same perfection
of mismanagement as Oxford and Cambridge. They all
knew that it was conducted on the purely ecclesiastical
system ; that the professorial teaching had fallen into dis-
use, and that scientific lectures were as badly attended as
in either of the two universities. This was the more
severely felt in the pal of the country with which he was
connected, because it was expected that, being in the neigh-
bourhood of the collieries, it would afford a school for
mining and engineering purposes. He understood the
noble lord to state that he would not bring forward any
measure on the subject this year ; and recollecting that
there was a passage in the Queen's Speech upon education,
and that the general opinion was that some enabling act
would have been brought in by Lord Derby's Government,
he regretted to find that all hopes of improvement from
legislation were further removed than before. At the
same time he must offer his humble tribute of admiration
at the views expressed by the noble lord with reference to
independent students the extension of the professorial
system, and the making of intellectual merit the test of
success for all classes. He was very glad to hear this from
the noble lord, because, in 1850, the right honourable gen-
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer used language on
this subject, which no doubt had some influence upon the
line of conduct pursued by the University of Oxford in re-
ference .to the royal commission. He agreed, however, with
his hon. and learned friend the member for Bath, when he
said that the noble lord was more timid than his own com-
missioners. He understood the noble lord meant to give the
universities more time, and if they did not act, then he
would come to Parliament for powers to compel them to do
what was proper. But time, was the very thing which
the Oxford Conservatives wanted to gain, but nothing
would induce him to grant it, because ho was convinced
that they would make as bad a use of it as they did be-
fore. This demand for time was not new. In 1834 or
1835, when Lord Radnor -brought the question before the
House of Lords, the late Duke of Wellington said that the
University of Oxford had entered upon the consideration
of its statutes, and that the colleges were about to do the
same, but from that time to the present no step had been
taken by any Oxford college. The hon. baronet, who was
the senior representative of the University of Oxford, ex-
pressed great alarm at what the noble lord had said he
would do if the university did not act, but the hon. bart.'s
apprehensions were unfounded, for if the noble lord did
not strike while the iron was hot, all internal dissensions
would be appeased, and Oxford would again present the
same unbroken front to improvement which it had always
done. He would ask the noble lord whether the
commissioners approved of this delay. He (Mr.
Blackett) had no authority to speak their senti-
ments, but the spoke of the " immediate" necessity of
opening the scholarships, and of abrogating the oaths to
observe the statutes. The house was aware that the in-
quiries of the commissioners were met by the reply that
the oaths to observe the statutes stood in the way of an
answer being given by the fellows to the request made to
them in the name of her Majesty. In the course of every
year there were thirty or forty fellowships and other offices
of emolument within the university given away, and upon
admission to which this oath of a perpetual observance of
the statutes was taken. Every year, therefore, added a
fresh crop of persons, who were ready to plead that oath
as a bar to any inquiry. The Vice-Chancellor had refused
to give any information to the commissioners, and only
three colleges and three halls had communicated informa-
tion to the commissioners. The commissioners had, how-
ever, reported, and when it was known that an appeal was
to be made by the Ministers of the Crown to the autho-
rity of Parliament, he thought it was the duty of tho
University of Oxford to abstain from taking any steps
which were formally condemned by the commission. One
of the recommendations of the commission was that the
revenues of the university should not be applied to objects
that were not academical, yet the university, although it
had given I,COO/. last year to the diocesan training school,
and had thereby mortgaged the surplus revenue of the cur-
rent year, the university thought proper to give 5001.
towards the testimonial to the late Duke of Wellington.
He perfectly agreed with the noble lord that the most
-valuable of the recommendations of the commissioners was
the extension of the university system to students without
exacting from them admission to the several colleges, the
main advantage of which would be that it would break the
neck of the ecclesiastical and the tutorial system. The
noble lord was probably aware that the Liberal-Conserva-
tive portion of the university had organised itself in oppo-
sition to the recommendations of the commissioners, and
on this last head the tutors' association had put forward a
separate scheme of its own. It had assented to other por-
tions of the scheme, such as the erection of independent
halls under private masters of arts, but they steadily re-
fused any countenance to the project of students uncon-
nected with colleges. This, he thought, was a fair speci-
men of the way in which the University of Oxford would
emasculate and temper down the recommendations of the
commission. In conclusion, he could not help lamenting
that the main obstacle to efficient university reform was a
Coalition Cabinet:
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not rise
to go into the various points which had been raised inci-
dentally in this discussion, or to follow the hon. gentleman
who had just sat down through the particulars of his at-
tack upon the University of Oxford, and upon members of
that university, who, in his (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer's)
opinion, deserved the highest honour—(hear)—
and had taken part not now only in the cause of university
reform—(hear)—but he wished to answer the questions of
his noble friend (Lord J. Manners), and to notice one or
two of the points which had been referred to. The noble
lord had asked whether there would be any objection to
lay upon the table the minute of Privy Council which it
was intended to substitute for that of June the 12th, 1852
There would be no objection whatever to the immediateblord
production of that minute. (Hear.) But the no
did not give a correct description of the minute of June,
1852, when he said that the promoters of Churcho f Eng-
land schools had laboured
dunder a grievance
allowed to constitute their trustsinthema in
manner
not
agreeablebeing
to their own convictions, while a
Catholico f that kind
nd
The
minute gives to the founders of Roman
through
hadaminuthe o
off JEu nn g el
a,
nldBss2o
odoi dl s
snhootu sl
da yb
et haatt the er t
yf o u
ton deheeerinos
seto
f
Churcai
fihhnaestdcrihtguoolmaster ;
ob-
jecttut e
otfhetihrattrmusitnswuitanes,ttohife
pmai
rt
e hadvnen
ne
trotnthhee,eyarenttedhonnutolg.ohdnolufitbht
i
rational object,
rues't ofd im-
moralt
l
now be
mislin doerrsitmanpdroinpger, or r
persons undue
ini ntf ih uteoeennocwc eeffir
nh oece rhde,
wasmi cnu
1852, he
noble
lordf uiarwaostchi
seeat bobyjtehcte
etaesd it would be fully secured. But as to the been
ofhe
e,
when he
na and,doob
looorudl
could
not c o nhsat
vr ue cht iaodn t
hoef
minutethe
se
roe
referred to it as giving to the promoters of Church
of England schools a liberty which it w
unreasonable in them to claim and veryimreperbien vaenrYy
whether Scotland was included
Government to give. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord asked
evening been announced.
fthtehpelaanolvvhernichmhenatd
with
be explained upon a distinct respect to Scotland, when plan in no respect extend-
ed.hTle, noble
lord also asked whether inct occasion. (Hear.)
they should be matured, would
it was intended by the bill for the
regulation of charitable trusts to pr° vide that every separ-
ate scheme of reform which might be framed under the
provisions of that bill should be made the subject of a se-
parate act- of Parliament. Of course, with regard to the
precise frame of the bill, it would be better that the noble
lord should wait for the bill than trust to a general descrip-
tion of it; but what was intended was to adopt a provision
somewhat similar to that of the Enclosure Act. It would
be necessary to come to Parliament for schemes of reform
in the case of charities whore the trustees did not give their
consent, but it would nor be necessary to come for a separ-
ate act in each case ; it might be found practicable to com-
)ight
The be
hen.
combined
menabiner ofnoer act
Bathof
fa rr
com-
bine a number in a single act, just as now a number of
schemes of enelesureea.lnr
liament. (Hear, h
Phinn) referred to the great schools of this country, and
thought they ought to have been comprised in the state-
ment which had been made to the house. When the
Attorney-General of the late Government (Sir F. Thesi-
ger) introduced a bill last year for the regulation
of charitable trusts. it would have admitted an inquiry
into the great schools and the manner in which they
managed their funds ; and he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) believed those great schools would be included
within the scope of the bill which it was now indended to
introduce into the House of Lords for the regulation of
charitable trusts, and it would be premature to enter
upon the subject on this occasion. It was quite true that
those oohed§ discharged an office preliminary in a gioat

degree to the universities, and it seemed only in 'the na-
tural order of things that the measures of reform to be
adopted in the universities should take their ultimate
shape before Parliament considered the measures which it
might be right to adopt with respect to the great schools.
(Hear. hear.) A great deal had been said upon the sub-
ject of the universities, and the hon. member for Cam-
bridge (Mr. Wigram) had spoken upon the subject in a
conciliatory tone,—a tone indicating readiness to give fair
consideration to proposals of improvement—(hear, hear)—
which was the best adapted .both to promote beneficial
change, and to resist dangerous and mischievous alteration.
(Hear, hear.) With respect to the statement of the noble
lord (Lord J. Russell), it required no defence and no eluci-
dation from hitn (the Chancellor of the Exchequer).
Whether it was in contrast with what he had said there or
or elsewhere, as has been stated by the hon. gentleman
who had just down was a subject upon which he should
leave that hon. gentleman to speculate to his own content
and satisfaction. To the principles which had been laid
down by the noble lord he (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) adhered, as he always had. He held it to be the
duty of the Legislature to seek that the great endowments
and resources with which the universities had been pro-
vided should be made available for the ends and pur-
poses for which they existed ; and if there were portions
if those endowments which at preaent lay dormant and
in abeyance, and were not so made available, it was
a matter essential to the welfare of those universities
themselves that their application should be so directed
that they might accomplish the ends for which they
were appointed. (Hear, hear.) If he at all refer-
cal to the speech of the hon. member who had just
~at down, he must say, it appeared to him with great
deference and submission to that hon. member, a speech
greatly tending to stop the progress of university reform.
He could not conceive a course more unwise, if the hon.
member was in earnest—as doubtless he was—in desiring
many beneficial changes in the universities, than that which
the hon. member had taken. He had not' stopped short of
imputing a general insincerity to the professions made
among the university residents ; he said they were all
asleep till the report, though ho incidentally stated in
another part of his speech that a great and extensive change
had been adopted by the university in the whole system of
study and examination just before the commission was ap-
pointed [Mr. Blackett.—" I distinguished between the
university and the colleges."] He (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) had not heard that; but, the university and
the colleges being composed at present of the same persons,
it was scarcely possible that a, spirit of reform should pre-
vail in the one, and that in the other the same persons who
adopted reforming measures should be liable to the veil
severe censures which the hon. member had cast upon them.
(Hear.) But, be that as it might, the hon. member alr.„
peared to be of opinion that it was not only desirable that
changes should be made in the universities, but that 61.
should be made by extraneous authority ; for he said that
the noble lord was committing a fatal error in giving theni
time. Why, the commissioners, who were not deficient
zeal and diligence took two years to frame their report, PI".
very wisely. Did the hon. member think, in reference t°
bodies of this kind, which had discharged the most import-
ant functions for centuries, and which enjoyed at this nlO-
ment —he (the Chancellor f the Exchequer) would venture
to say—the confidence and respect of the country—(hear)
as bodies of men ardently engaged in the promotion of most
useful labours—(hear)—did the hon. member think A
was desirable entirely to override the free and independent
action of those bodies ? Their free and independent netie°
was essentially connected with the attainment of the ends,
for which they existed. (Hear.) If they were deprived a
that free and independent action, it might be necessary. for
them to interfere—he did not say such circumstances mighll,,
not arise, but it would be a great misfortune ; it was c°,
importance that improvement should be introduced c"
their own free choice. (Hear.) An hon. member said---
" I hope you do not mean to hold out a threat to the ups'
versities that you will interfere if they do not do so-and'
so." It was anything but desirable to hold out threats At
an hon. gentleman had done, it produced a strong spirit of
reaction. At the same time it was too much to allege that
they or any incorporation was in such a sense and so abse'
lutely master of its endowments, that Parliament had u°
right of supervision whatever ; it was surely the duty ~
Parliament, on sufficient cause shown, to interpose and.re:
gulate those endowments 'for a public purpose. (Hear.'
But the rational course was to give fair and full time to
these bodies. They were not bodies that had been asleep'
they had been improving their systems. No doubt there
was much to be done. as there not much to be tlOa°
in the House of Commons ? (Hear, hear.) Was there
not much to be done in the way of reform and improve'
ment ? (Hear. hear.) But did it follow that the,'
had been doing nothing? (Hear, hear.) Just so with
these ancient and complicated foundations, with great
difficulties standing in the way of reform ; he must pro;
test against the imputations which had been thrown nab
by the hon. member against those who were conductin4
education there, and wain the house against his doctrine,
" Do not give them time ; sweep away what you want t°
see removed." These were not questions that would adult
of that rude treatment. (Hear, hear.) If you wanted 10
attain your end, you must proceed regularly and in order'
and, while vindicating the supremacy of Parliament, yeti,
must give these parties the opportunity of introducing
changes, unless you had reason to believe they would ll°
be introduced by their free action. (
reasonableHe hear.)
member said it would have been but
ford should have acted upon the recommendation of the
tThhate
commissioners with regard to the administration of
property. It was one question whether that recommends'
Lion was a reasonable one ; but what a doctrine to sal'
that because a commission of inquiry had been appoint'
when that commission had reported the body was to
bound to act upon the principles the commission had
itl
clown ! He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) must
test against that, as a doctrine adverse to liberty. (He'''
hear.) He would say, it was the business of corporal
bodies to submit themselves to their view of reason, all.,
not to the view of the hon. member, or of himself. It IP;
their duty to submit themselves to law, but it was nr
their duty to submit to the opinions or views of coma
sions of inquiry, unless they thought them to be rigba
(Hear, hear.) He hoped the statements of his noble fries
with respect to the universities would be taken from t,°
speech of the noble lord him Self, and not from the ,'„
structions put upon it by any member. (Hear, hear.) IP„,
commissioners spoke of the introduction of students byt.
longing to the university, but not connected with the c°
leges. They thought this desirable, if it could be den',
without relaxing or weakening the discipline of the univer
sity. But this was a reservation of a most important JO'
meter, and the question was in what mode and whethe?
this change could be made without weakening the disc:i
pliue. He regretted that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Blacket"
had spoken with what he must consider extreme and e 0
merited asperity—(hear, hear)—of a body of men of a Wo'l
laborious and meritorious character, who were engagett
honestly, industriously, and uprightly in the business °
education. He trusted that the house would adhere „t 1
the recommendation of his noble friend (Lord J. Russo,)
and give to the universities fair and full time for consider'
.- in and recommending the measures best adapted to til,„
end in view, leaving it to them, as to all corporate authuj
rities, to do their duty, if they would do it willingly, An
d
if not, then reserving to that house the duty of acting
under its authority. (Hear, hear.)
aft.
After a few words from Lord J. MANNERS and ,-
BLACKETT in explanation,
Mr. PELLATT wished to bear testimony to the labor
of the persons engaged as Sunday-school teachers. T11°54
schools had now been in existence for 70 years ; there Wet't
no less than 2,000,000 scholars in them, who were tang,
by 200,000 teachers. All these schools were maintains"
upon the voluntary principle, and all gave religious in struG'
tion.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill.

CLERGY RESERVES (CANADA) BILL.
This bill, as amended, was considered.
Mr. HUME said that great objections were felt out °,l
doors to any portion of the religious instruction of tba
people of Canada being paid for by the State, and
trusted the Government would reconsider the alterati°
II
they had made in the bill.
The bill was ordered to be printed with the amendment'
and to be read a third time on Monday next.
PI-

......LOTAGE BILL.
Mr. CARDWELL moved that this bill be read a secol4
Arne.
select committee up-stairs. e
Mr. CARDWELL believed that the bill would be ben.,
Mr. HUME recommended that it should be referred to/
toth takeeEx
very well considered by the hour itself.
the bill was read
a second tiniflt
After some discussion,
facial to the mercantile interest, anthought it could r
and ordered to be committed. on Monday next.
PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR FRIDAY NEXT.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought it might be as well to 0,0
public business on Friday next. On that day the rigbii
theit Chancelloras Pth -
eodf with regard I
explain the propositions of which he had given notice the
evening (to move for a committee of the whole house g
Exchequer wov
thhoen
.course
gentleman hie h
consider the Consolidated Fund and the National DS
Redemption Acts), and after that the Government PI
posed to go into Committee of Supply and take the mist
laneous estimates.
The Copyholds Bill was read a second time.
The New Forest Deer Removal Act Amendment
passed thr li BSI'
and the Law of Evidence (Scotland) Bill b"
0
committee.
The Oaths in Chancery Bill was read a third time ollii
passed.

MERCHANT SMITING BILL.
Mr. TURNER presented petitions from the m 061.4;
a7dermen, and burgesses el Liverpool, and from the trg„j
tees of the Liverpool docks, under their corporate se'e;
against this bill, the 22nd clause of which would, the Pin
Wieners believed, prejudice their interest in regard
tolls.

The bill was read a second time and ordered to be col"
milted on Monday next.
CANTERBURY ELECTION.
On the motion of Mr. K. SEYMER, the further suspl;
sion of the writ for the city of Canterbury till Monday, the
2nd day of May next, was agreed to.
The house then, at a quarter to 11 o'clock, sdjourlicv
until this day (Tuesday).

STATE OF TRADE.—The accounts of the state of f,lllie
in the inanufactoring towns during the past week
generallfsatisfaetory. At Manchester the market p`4
been very firm, owing to the advance of the raw mat,,
'
rial at Liverpool, although buyers being still caution ;0 ~
business has been limited from the hesitancy to gic,
higher prices. At Birmingham the makers have rels
I
tautly consented to a reduction of 11. per ton in V.
iron, and the concession appears likely to lead to 111
transactions, in consequence of the great demand
heavy machinery and the general requirements for
way purposes. The manufacture of a gasometer
Smethwicic, for the Sheffield Gas Consumers CompAlA'p
of the unprecedented diameter of 165 feet is regaPa,
with interest. The price of copper continues to bile
slight tendency to decline. Heaton and Son are ill
contractors for the new coinage of 500 tons, which °oe
be ;,commenced about the end of June, the 5,.09
firm being meanwhile employed in copper colte
for Canada and France. The Nottingham accounts 801i'
business to have been. interrupted by the Easter Poe
days, but there was a tendency to great activity, OJ,
Australian, American, and home demand being all goo,
In the woollen districts there has been continued ante;
tion, and the recent strikes for higher wages have
arranged by mutual concessions, The Irish linen ?ti
ket shows firmness and activity, without any Posh; t;
alteration in prices. Letters from Rouen mentinjetoi
transactions in the market -for manufactures had beell
more extensive, lower prices having in several cases.
accepted. t
LETTERS FOR AUSTRHLIA.—It appears that arisiji.-P
ments have been made with the Post-office allitt(lcl'
for carrying her Majesty's mails to Port Philip and .c yci'
ney by the screw steamer Osmanli, to, sail P.'?.? 141
peel on. the 7th. inst.