The Sun.
London, England, 1853-03-08 00:00:00


THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY" EVENING, MARCH 8, 1853.

various and imperfect ektments. In England, the Duke of
Wellington presides, while the prince, the peer, the,adnfl-
ral, the commoner, and the retired sea captain sit together
and devise means for alleviating the hardships and lessening
the dangers of the mariner in approaching their dangerous
coast." With respect to our success under that system,
whatever may be its faults, which we have hitherto pur-
sued, this is the testimony of your great rivals—rivals in
everything that tenas to maritime successes ; and they
consider that to expect their lights to compare with your
lights would be to expect order out of confusion, and per-
fection out of imperfect elements. (Hear, hear.) A pre-
judice has prevailed with regard to the application of the
funds of the Trinity House, and no person who hears
me can fail to have heard remarks made with respect
to the enormous. receipts paid into their coffers, and doubts
expressed as to the mode in which they have been em-
ployed. It is very natural that, where there is no system
of perfect control in reference to the accounts, there
should be misapprehension and misconstruction, and I am
not making any complaint that those impressions should
prevail, but let me ask of the committee to consider the
real circumstances of the case. In the year 1836 you im-
posed upon the corporation of the Trinity House the ne-
cessity of purchasing a great number of private light-
houses, and incurring an expenditure which amounts on
the whole to no less than one million and a quarter.
During the interval that has elapsed since 1836, they have
not been occupied, with regard to their surplus revenues,
either in funding them for their own benefit, or in dis-
tributing them in some improper channel ; but what are
the facts ? That money has been applied for the purpose
of liquidating the debt which you imposed upon them ;
and the debt in 1836 of a million and a quarter has been
reduced to 97,500/. (Hear.). It should also be recollected
that the differential dues, abolished by the reciprocity
treaty, have been compensated, for to private individuals
out of the tolls paid by the mercantile marine ; that, at
least, is no fault of the corporation ; it may have been
wrong or it may have been right, but justice requires that
this should be stated, because it is the truth. (Hear, hear.)
Concurrently with this reduction of debt, there has been
the following reduction of light dues : —ln 1819 there was
a reduction that by estimate amounted to 80,0001., and in
1852 there was a reduction of 38,000/. ; and without en-
tering into details at the present moment, I have the
pleasure of informing the committee that I do not think
the budget of reductions has been exhausted. (Hear.)
Then comes the question to which, with the permission of
the house, I will apply myself, namely, what is the proper
mode of providing that the mercantile marine shall have
those advantages of control over receipts and expenditure,
and the accountability and responsibility to Parliament,
which the mercantile interest, justly in our opinion, think
they are entitled. to? (Hear, hear.) The hon. member
for Montrose considered the constitution of the Trinity
House in two committees, and here is the recommendation
that was given by the committee that sat in 1834 :—" Your
committee recommend one board resident in London. The
constitution of the (Trinity House) board is that of self-
election, and your committee have been anxious to ascer-
tain whether any and what constituency could be obtained
to give the board a more liberal character but they have
been unable to find out any proper constituency, and do
not at present see how they can recommend any great
alteration. Upon the whole, your committee are of opinion
that the corporation of the Trinity House, of Deptford.
Stroud, having been chartered ' for the good: government
and increase of navigation, and the office of buoyage and
beaconage having been granted to that body upon the sur-
render thereof by the Lord High Admiral, and the greater
part of the lighthouses in England having been erected,
and being now maintained by that corporation, and this
committee being satisfied, after inquiring into the lights
now under their charge, that the said corporation are well
calculated, after some modifications in the regulations under
which they admit their members, to have the management
and control of the whole department of lights, recommend
that all general public lights in the United Kingdom be
placed tinder the management of the said corporation."
Again, in 1845, there was a committee over which my hon.
friend presided, and a recommendation was made that
there should be only one board resident in London, and
that that central board should be the Trinity Board ; and
that one-third of the Trinity Board should be nominated
by the Crown. The Government have carefully considered
those recommendations. (Hear.) We think that there
should be an additional control over the accounts of re-
ceipts and expenditure by some person whose station in
the executive Government renders him responsible to Par-
liament. (Hear.) That is the opinion which the Govern-
ment entertain, and we shall be ready to state our reasons
for holding it. (Hear, hear.) We think there are objec-
tions to the proposal to consolidate the lights of Ireland
and Scotland under the management of the Trinity House,
because the commissioners act gratuitously in Scotland, and
because it would raise in Ireland an impression with re-
gard to centralization which we have no regard to give any
suspicion of in regard to our arrangements. (Hear, hear.)
Then with regard to the composition of the Trinity House,
the power of nominating one-third of the elder brethren
by the Crown would confer patronage on the Crown, but
leave its nominees in a minority of one to two within the
walls, and it might have a groat tendency to create what
is always most undesirable in any governing body—a need-
less hostility between those who owe their seats to ono

borough fund, we do not exactly see the justice of their de-
mand. Now, observe the position in which you stand.
These tolls are not tolls exclusively upon the ship, but tolls,
port
(01
Htnhmtaemrabar,ny,i txyhtawohexedaehanroi:
hear.) But
hsx:ti
ihsßotehenupecoal
shipownertargoodsshared
yatbothonacuaxdrtho.
aad we thet
anfhtpiehdthe
otcorio tosnt
distinct
i.owlxnen
leaves,
vhunHoemi
fste
iheadre
oreae,
ship-
owner, irta
demur-
cation e..ss.
ocaontitolbeedtwineenthtehetwcaosevsooLithoosoensforu:ttpounls;vhainodh themy cases
contained in the two voluminous returns which my hon.
friend the member for Montrose, first, in 1845, and
again in 1846, laid on the table of this house ? I say it is
necessary to have a more complete inquiry before we can
decide on this question, and before we can place this charge
on the Consolidated Fund. And when we talk about
"injured interests," let me say ono word about that "in-
jured interest," the Consolidated Fund. The Consolidated
Fund is an aggregate of the hard-earned taxes of the people
of this country ; you impose 40,0001. on the Consolidated
Fund, and you do more harm to the people of this country
when you ask for a remission of taxed and do not furnish
the grounds on which it is to be made. The Consolidated
Fund has already paid an aggregate of 802,0001. for various
local dues, and the annual charge upon that fund is now ,
39,0001. Under these circumstances the Government in-
tend to institute such an inquiry as that to which I have
referred. 'But there is another reason why inquiry should
become, if not necessary, at least desirable. There is a
grievance to which the mercantile marine is subject, and
from which they desire to be relieved, and that is the re-
luctance on the part of some important foreign powers to
reciprocate the great concessions which we made to them
when we lowered our tariff, and particularly when we re-
pealed our navigation laws. The attention-of the Govern-
ment is earnestly directed to obtain the necessary relief for
the mercantile marine in this matter ; though it is
my duty to state it is attended with much practical
difficulty. I have now stated the views which the Govern-
ment entertain with regard to the questions of lights
and harbours, whether they be harbour lights or other dues.
For the first there will be a complete parliamentary con-
trol, and for the second a complete investigation and in-
quiry. I will now proceed to touch upon the Admiralty
question. First comes the question whether it is expedient
that we should continue to retain the restriction which
requires a British crew to consist of three parts British
subjects, and only one part foreign. (Hear, hear.) The
advocates of a continuance of that restriction say, " look
at the returns and you will find there can be no great ad-
vantage in employing foreigners, because the privilege
which now exists is by no means appreciated." It is
manifest that that is no answer to the case, because the
object is to have the choice of employing foreign or British
seamen in such proportions as may be thought necessary.
I doubt very much whether the time ever was when this
regulation presented so sensible an obstruction as at the
present time. I have here a letter from the Peninsular
and Oriental Company to the Secretary of the Admiralty,
in which they say that it is not now a question of freight
at all; but it has become a question whether you can have
ships and sailors. I have just received from our consul
at Christiana a letter, dated 6th December, in which he
says it has been asserted that • Norwegian vessels are navi-
gated much cheaper than British, because the master is
ill-paid and the crows are badly fed ; but he says
the fact is the reverse—that the Norwegian master
is generally better paid and his crew bettor fed than
the English. Now, after the observations I have made,
the committee will be prepared to be told that the Go-
vernment do not prepose to retain such a restriction.
(Hear, hear.) I well remember the noble lord the member
for the city of London saying that Protection was the bane
of agriculture. I hope the time will come when everybody
will believe that to British seamanship, as well as to Bri-
tish ship-owning and British ship-building, you may with
safety apply the maxim of free intercourse, and that
neither on behalf of the one nor of the other is there any
reason for British seamen to fear competition. (Hear,
hear.) The next question relates to the system of volun-
teering into the navy. I think it would be a great dis-
couragement to British .subjects to go on board of ship if
they heard in whatever part of the world they might be—
if they should chance to happen to have ever so tyrannical
a master—if their diet was ever so insufficient—or their
condition ever so undesirable—that there was no hope of
relief for them until the completion of the voyage ; and I
think some right of appeal to a British authority may be
safely given to a person so poor and defenceless as the
British seaman. (Hear.) I will here relate an anecdote
which ought to be known for the honour of the Queen's
service. The difficulties that are felt in Australia at the
present moment must be familiar to the minds of every
gentleman in this house connected with the business of ship-
owning. Those difficulties were felt three years ago in
California;• and what was done by a British officer ? On
the 4th of October, 1849, Captain Shepherd, of the Incon-
stant, arrived at San Francisco, and immediately after-
wards set about ascertaining the condition of the British
ships there. He found that four of them were ready for
sea, but were stopped for want of men ; but on the 16th of
October, through his exertions, they were all on their way
to Valparaiso, manned with officers from his own ship.
(Hear.) I only mention this circumstance in order that
you may see that there are two sides to this as to every
other question. While, however, the Government do not
intend entirely to abolish the power in question, they do
intend to bring in enactments on the subject. If pecu-
niary loss arise to the shipowner in consequence of such
voluntcaring, it is proposed that he shall be entitled to
receive compensation out of the funds of the Admiralty.
Thus both the seaman and the shipowner will have justice
done them. Then I next approach the question of sal-
vage. There are persons who think that the right of
salvage in regard to the Queen's service ought to
be entirely abglished. I hold it to be no dispa-
ragement to that service that the entire removal from them
of everything in the nature of reward in cases of help af-
forded in cases of extreme hardship would be regarded by
them as a great injustice. Lord Tenterden, a great legal
authority, says the law of Great Britain is more liberal
than that of Europe upon this subject. But there is a
grievance connected with this question ; and that is, that
the law gives a temporary lion in certain cases on things
which are the subject of salvage, and I am authorised to
state on the part of my right hon. friend the First Lord of
the Admiralty, that arrangements are in preparation
whereby in cases of that nature that claim of lien may be
released. I find from the representations of a deputation
with whom I had a recent interview, that the jurisdiction
of the Court of Admiralty is objected to in certain quar-
ters. But when I consider that Lord Stowell once pro-
sided over that court, and that it is now presided over by
Dr. Lushington, I think wo should have been very pre-
sumptuous to have taken the advice of that deputation. I
,come next to the case of desertion ; and there again, I say.,
clauses are in preparation which are intended to remedy
those difficulties under which the shipowners labour in
Australia by reason of the desertion of their men in quest
of gold in that colony. That question then will in a short
time be dealt with by the Government. I next come to
the question of consulates. There must be some erroneous

mode of election and those who owe it to another mode of
election. (Hear.) It is, therefore, desirable that these
three bodies should not be changed in their own constitu-
tion, but should be placed under the control of an authority
responsible to Parliament for all their receipts and expen-
diture ; and therefore this house, acting directly on the
Executivo Government, will virtually exercise that con-
trol which my hon. friend stated ought to be exercised on
behalf of the mercantile marine ; and I venture to say that
is a more constitutional and efficient control than could be
attained by any partial change- in those bodies. Those
being the views of the Goveanment, they were communi-
cated to the Trinity House, and they returned an answer
which I shall lay on the table of the house—an answer
agreed to unanimously by the Trinity House, and signed
by the Master of the Trinity House, his Royal Highness
the Prince Consort. What the Government desired was,
first, to establish a control by a Government authority
directly responsible to Parliament over the collection and
expenditure of their revenues ' • secondly, a periodical
audits ; and, thirdly, to suspend the granting of new pen-
sions and charities. The Trinity House authorities were
' pleased to state their entire acquiescence in the first two
propositions; and with regard to the third, they put in a
plea, which came from trustees appointed by charters
dated from the earliest period, for the purpose of distri-
buting charities to decayed mariners, which I am sure the
committee will receive with respect. But that claim has
not been acceeded to by the Government. The Govern-

ment consider that whatever may have been the origin of
those light dues, the time has arrived when, from the

increase of commerce and the change in the practice and
feeling on those matters, the mercantile marine are entitled
. .

to have this tax levied for light dues and applied to light
dues. (Hear, hear.) And in my answer to the Trinity
House I have spoken in these words :—" The principles
which regulate the receipt, control, and expenditure of
moneys compulsorily levied upon the public for the general
purposes of tho community, will henceforth be applied to
the sums payable to the Trinity House for lights, buoys,
beacons, ballastago, in short. to all sums without exception
levied upon and paid by the mercantile marine. The gross
receipts will be carried to a separate account at the Bank
of England, from which no payment can be made except
by the authority of a department of her Majesty's Govern-
ment responsible to the houses of Parliament. The ac-
counts will be regularly forwarded to the Board of Trade,
and thence, after examination, will be transmitted to the
Commissioners of Audit. A full statement of the accounts

of the past year will be regularly laid before Parliament.
The provision of the statute 6 and 7 Will. c. 79, for re-
ducing the dues upon the requisition of the Sovereign in
Council, will at at all times be carried into effect so soon

as, in the opinion of her Majesty's Government, the state
of the fund will admit, without any regard to any consi-
deration whatever except the efficiency of the several ser-
vices for which those dues are levied. It appears to her
Majesty's Government that the mercantile marine is justly
entitled to these advantages, and that the scheme proposed
by the Trinity House will secure them." Then, in answer
to their demand to be heard on this subject, the Govern-
ment have stated that they are prepared to give an impar-
tial consideration to the views that may be urged for the
continuance of those pensions. But, in vindication of the
opposite view taken by the Government, I may appeal to
the report of the select committee on foreign trade so long
ago as 1822, by which that view is confirmed. Then the
Trinity House tookthe opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor
General as to the right in question. But nobody questions
their right so long as the charters remain ; nor does any-
body charge them with any dereliction of duty in adminis-
tering the funds which they are empowered to distribute.
In 1824, however, the Government said the opinion of
the law officers appeared to have been taken under a mis-
taken impression of their views ; for the objection of the
committee did not apply to the distribution, but to the
principle. Well, these are the views which the Govern-
ment thought it their duty to communicate to the Trinity
House—that there ought to be parliamentary controul and
parliamentary responsibility ; and that, further, there
ought to be a strict application of the funds to the pur-
poses for which those funds were levied. And here let me
pay a tribute to the spirit in which we have been met. I
have referred to the Master of the Trinity House. Let me
acknowledge the obligations of the Government to the
Deputy-Master and Elder Brethren, for the sincere spirit
with which they have endeavoured to recognise the dis-
charge of their important duties with their sense of the
public requirements and the national benefit. (Hear, hear.)
And let me ask you to enter upon the assumption of this
controul in a similar spirit of confidence and sincerity.
Now, I have said nothing on the subject of harbour lights
in all this, because those lights are very numerous, and
are mixed
up in most cases with other funds. That, sub-
ject, we conceive, does not fall within the province of im-
perial legislation. If we do not intend by the bill to deal
with the harbour lights, it is not because we wish that any-
thing should remain improper or inconsistent with regard
itfahe ciliquteytion of passing
s
to them, but it is because it does not belong to the regula-
tion of the imperial lights of the kingdom. Now, there is
a connection between the harbour lights and the next sub-
ject to which I shall call the attention of the committee.
than has been
right
tcToohll
tolls,
commonly
subjectbhonounity.i
tg e supposed.iswn one
a ofmuch
e Ih much
i opposite
co known
hr
(Mr. Disraeli), when he laidm as
described by the
ds
accurately
downp tglieei rulev confined to those payments in return for which the
shipping received
whichsonhitopingshould be
I cordially
subscribe. But I want to draw the attention of the com-
hirec
mittee to some of the details of the question connected
with this subject of passing tolls. I think it would be un-
fair in the highest degree to suppose that the right hon.
gentleman opposite would think of charging those tolls on
the Consolidated Fund, if he was in possession of all the
information appertaining to the subject. When the right
honourable gentleman left office, the report of Capt. Vetch
on the harbour of Ramsgate had not been received. Capt.
Vetch—whose report has been recently received—after re-
viewing the inquiries of those who had formerly preceded
him in the investigation of that harbour, said he differed
very materially from those predecessors as to the magni-
tude of the toll necessary to be levied at' all, and he had
come to the conclusion that by a proper arrangement the har-
bour of Ramsgate might hewed° self-supporting.
Capt. Vetch
also says there ais
• n old duty of 2d. a ton on coals levied in
the town of Ramsgate under its police act which ought to
be repealed, for it is monstrous to suppose that such a town
as that should continue to impose a toll of that kind for
such a purpose. (Hear, hear.) Surely no one, with this
information before him,
would recommend. that the local
rates of Ramsgate should be borne by the general taxpayers
of this kingdom. (Hear, hear.) I think we ought to know
the whole truth before we assent to such a proposition.
Now, I had a visit from two gentlemen—the noble lord the
member for Scarborough and the hon. member for Whitby
—and they said there is a private bill before Parliament
for abolishing what is called the passing toll of Whitby.
That bill they said was promoted by the people of Newcas-
tle-upon-Tyne and Sunderland, upon the ground that such
toll is inconsistent with public policy, and unjust. Tho
noble lord and the hon. member say it may be inconsistent
with public policy, but considering we have a parliamen-
tary title of 150 years' standing, that is a matter for Par-.
liament • and they say it may be unjust, but considering
the people of Newcastle levy a tonnage rate on the export
of coals from theirj own river for the support of their

impiessions abroad on this subject. Those consulates are all

regulated by act of Parliament in conformity with the re-
commendations of committees of inquiry on the subject,
and I think those who make objections cannot be aware that

according to the latest returns from the Foreign-office the
general tax-paying body of this country paid in one year
105,000/ in respect of consuls' fees. I have heard that in one

department, one consul had received nearly 5,0001. It is
true, however, that recent amendments of the Mercantile

Marine Act have thrown additional duties on consuls in fo-

reign ports. This subject, however, is one which rests en-
tirely with the Foreign-office. I have had interviews with
Lord Clarendon on the subject; he entered very readily into the
spirit in which the complaints had been made, and I hope
that the committee will be satisfied that, as respects the
consulates, her Majesty's Government are not disinclined
to effect any remedy that may be called for. I now come
to the question of pilotage. The right hon. gentleman
opposite (Mr. Disraeli) announced to the house the inten-
tion of her Majesty's late Government to appoint a com-
mittee to inquire into this subject, justly thinking than an
inquiry was needed before any effectual legislation could

be adopted for the purpose 'of meeting the numerous

-
grievances alleged on this subject. I a►n not sure that I
know with perfect accuracy how many separate pilot juris-
dictions there are in the three kingdoms. I have had a list
transmitted to me of between 50 and GO of them. (Hear,)
I venture to submit to the house that its past experience

with respect to committees of inquiry has not been so en-
tirely satisfactory upon the subject of pilotage as that we

ouglit to confine ourselves exclusively.to that mode of in-
quiry. So long ago as 1835 the late Sir R. Peel appointed

a, commission to investigate the subject. That commission
was composed of many eminent men, and there wero among
them those to whom certainly it could not be imputed that
they wero rash, or ready to recommend precipitate steps on
the subject. I find among the names of the commissioners
those of Lord Lonsdale, the Marquis of Bute, Sir John
Hardy, Mr. Robinson, Dlr. Chapman. If inquiry is neces-
sary in the case of some of the ports, it cannot be denied
that with respect to some others we have ample evidence
to warrant us in proceeding at once. What are the griev-
ances, for instance, of the port of London ? The right hon.
gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) justly treated in a vein of ridi-
cule the idea that a person who was competent to navigate a
ship up the river was incompetent to navigate the same
ship down the river, pr that a person who was compe-
tent to navigate a ship down could not be trusted with her
up the river. (A laugh.) I am told that there is some
difference between navigating a ship up and down the
river. Be this as it may, I think that he who would
trust his ship to the care of a man who could navigate
his ship up the river, and was not able to navigate it
down, would certainly be a rash man. (Hear, hear.)
There is no doubt, however, that this system leads to
higher charges, and to the employment of two per-
sons to do the work of one ; it leads also to a want of
uniformity of system in the control over the pilots. Her
Majesty's Government fully subscribe to the opinion that
control over the pilotage is necessarily a local matter, and
that it should be left as far as possible to local control.
That is no reason, however, why the Government should
not colder upon the Trinity House pilot or the Cinque Port
pilot, who has navigated a ship either down the river or,
from Dungeness Point, the power of taking a ship back,
instead of travelling home by land. (Hear, hear.) In the
bill which I have to submit to the committee, the vested
rights of the pilots are carefully preserved, and neither in
their superannuation funds nor in any other of their
rights will the slightest invasion of the rights of justice be
made. The principle laid down in the bill is that of local
jurisdiction. I will ask those who represent the interests
of the Cinque Ports to what commerce it is that they lay
claim to the rights of pilotage ? Is it not the great com-
merce of the city of London ? and ought not, therefore, the
London jurisdiction to prevail? (Hear, hear.) We pro-
pose, then, in this bill, while preserving all the rights of
the existing bodies of pilots, to amalgamate the two bodies,
and place them entirely under the same control as that of
the London Pilots. Let us take the next great port—the
Mersey. Lord Lonsdale, in his report to which I have
alluded, states that in this port the system has been such
by inter-arrangement among the pilots, as to raise the value
of a pilot-vessel from 1,2001. or 1,4001. to 4,0001. or
5,000/. ; the coasters above 100 tons burden, or vessels
not employed in that trade for six or seven months, are
entirely exempt from pilotage ; in other cases, so heavy
are the dues that in the instance of one steam boat
company the charges for pilotage for one year were
not less than 2,8901. for the two ports of London and
Liverpool. The report on this port concludes by stating—
This, however, is a question involving, not merely the
risk of property, but the lives of hundreds who embark in
this class of vessels, and we conceive that some regulations
are necessary, as well for the ports in which steam-vessels
are now exempt as those in which they are compelled to
take pilots. This has become the more necessary as steam
navigation is so rapidly increasing and extending." In
1843 the right hon. member for Taunton (Mr. Labouchere)
passed a bill by which the pilot authorities were empowered
to confer upon masters of vessels, as competent as the pilots
themselves to conduct their own vessels, the right o
doing. No persuasion, however, could induce the /Is so
authorities of Liverpool to exercise this power, and
that
examine
masters with respect to their competence. It • ls true
they made an offer to exempt them from some
of the con-
tributions in respect to pilotage which other people paid, but
when that offer came to be submitted to the
ws
aogfetaincesrtsthoo
f fthe Crown it was found that such exemption of thelocal acts of Liverp
ever, have not attempted to bring ' 001. The authorities, how-
in any bill to amend their

abolished. If the three separate boards of management
were to be continued, he feared they could not have much
expectation of greater economy being observed.
Mr. LABOUCFIERE had heard with great satisfaction
the statement of his right hon. friend, in the greater part
of which he concurred ; but more particularly in that part
of it which affirmed the high state of material and moral
country.
ity
Toof hthime
pßerinteisnhanmyetrhcians
sttailetemmeanritnwe,aasnedminofentthlye
seofintehaesurßoeasrdwhoifehTharaddeereitahtead
bensateisf
his satisfactory, for
to for
apsroilmreositedtenhot
t
this prosperity. He had always believed the prosperity of
shipping interest depended upon the commercial pros-
perity of the country ; and now it was fully proved that
he was in the right. He would not then enter into any
controversy on the repeal of the navigation laws, but he
could not help asking hon. gentlemen, who might still con-
sider that the present prosperity of the shipping interest.
was independent of that repeal, what would be the esp-
clition of the commerce of this country at this moment if
the restrictions imposed by those laws had not bea-re-
moved before existing circumstances had arispie— With
regard to the question of lights, he believed hiVrightshon.
friend had followed a juaithous coureeo Wad' he .iVas of
opinion that by the scheme proposed a.,substantial control
o toee
ntt
thh
their
ilk in gn sinpc
eogrsees
possible
desire loccchatas
ori
oa cnmts ee;re t
but
th
et ha t
we t
ihsTrinityef
would be obtained over them. He (Afr. Labouchere) bore
the
at iorKnae ynr
Government
time it could not be denied that the system which they
administered was indefensible, and he (Mr. Labouchere)
was always of opinion that a body having the handling of
such large sums of the public money should be responsible
to Parliament. The Trinity Board, he was bound to say,
had acted in this matter in no narrow spirit. With re-
spect to the subject of compensation for private lights,
which amounted to a million and a quarter, he con-
sidered that these lights were among the most monstrous
abuses that had ever existed. It had been said that they
were originally given to individuals to be maintained by
them. It was absurd to say so. To show the contrary he
needed only to refer to the Grenville papers recently pub-
lished, where, in a note, the Prime 3linister stated, that
having had an interview with George 111., and finding his
Majesty in a most gracious humour, he thought it was a
good opportunity to ask him for a lighthouse for his
youngest son. (Laughter.) The shipping interest had al-
ways complained of these lights, but unfortunately the
amount was so considerable that no Chancellor of Exche-
quer could be got to propose its relinquishment, or rather
the purchase of these lights. The late Government had
intended to pay the residue at present due on the purchase
—some 97,00'06.—0ut of the Consolidated Fund, and he
(Mr. Labouchere) asked his right honourable friend whether
it would not be worth his while to adopt the same prin-
ciple ? At all events he was certain it would be a
' great boon to the shipping interest. (Hear.) One of the
most important portions of the bill was the pilotage ques-
tion. the abolition of the privileges of the Cinque Ports,
and the consolidation of the pilotage system, would be a
great advantage to the commerce of the country. The
rate Lord Sydenham, a President of the Board of Trade,
had attempted to deal with it; but though the bill he in-
troduced had passed the House of Commons, it was de-
feated in the other House of Parliament. He (f . L.)
hoped, however, his right hon. friend would be more suc-
cessful. There was another question—one of the class
designated by his right hon. friend as Admiralty griev-
ances. British vessels were now obli,gea to have three-
fourths of their respective crews British subjects, a fourth.
only being permitted as foreign. It was proposed, how-
ever, to abrogate that obligation, and leave British ships
free to be manned wholly by foreigners, with the excep-
tion of the master and mate. Had the Government con-
sidered the consequences ? As a practical grievance the
existing arrangement was very slight—much less, indeed,
than had been stated ; for as the only foreign sailors of any
value were those from the Baltic, and as the Danes,
Swedes, and Norwegians had few more than were suffi-
cient for the commerce of their respective nations, the
numbers at command were too small to affect the market,
and the British sailor, therefore, had it now nearly en-
tirely to himself. But if the abrogation in question was
carried into effect, a ship built at Bremen, or any other
foreign port, being now registered as British, by the fact
of ownership such a vessel so built might be manned with
a foreign crew, in case the proposed abrogation was
adopted, and, therefore, have nothing British, in fact, but
the British flag and British ownership. The ownership,
he was afraid, under these circumstances, would be too
often only colourable • and the result would be that the
protection of the British flag would be but too frequently
bestowed upon foreign vessels, with a man of straw—a
British subject—as the nominal owner. This was a sub-
ject well worthy .f consideration on the part of the Go-
vernment.
Viscount CHELSEA defended the Cinque Port pilots
from the charges that had been made against them. The
Cinque Ports pilots were compelled to serve in rotation,
whereas the Trinity-house pilots had the option of what-
ever ship they chose, and they usually selected the largest
as the most profitable. Again, the Cinque Ports pilots
were bound to serve an apprenticeship of seven years,
whereas tho Trinity-house pilots had only to serve three
years.

acts, to enable them to carry out their offer. We propose
in this bill to tak, i away from the authorities the disquali-
fication which the it act places upon them, and thus open a
door by which jui Lice can fairly be done • but we intend to
take care that the authorities shall avaiethemselves of this
opportunity of so doing, and I shall ask the house to confer
upon the Board u Trade powers in certain cases to enforce
examinations when such a course is not adopted by the
authorities. (Hear, hear.) We will take care, if local
bodies are deaf to all remonstrance, and will not listen to
complaints made to them, that there shall be another power
which shall compel them to do justice, We desire nothing
so little as centra' intermeddling with local affairs, but we
think there must be a remedy for some of the grievances
complained of, and we reserve to ourselves a weapon which
I trust we shall not, however, be compelled to list. (Hear.)
I come now to the third port--the Severn. The corporation
of Bristol in 1809 obtained an act conferring upon them
the power of licensing pilots for all vessels navigating the
Severn. Since that period, however, great alterations
have taken place. Newport, Cardiff, Swansea, and Glou-
cester have become great ports, some of them not even
inferior to that of Bristol, and those ports feel greatly the
tax imposed upon them by being compelled to employ
Bristol pilots. • The jurisdiction of the corporation extends
to all ports and places in the Bristol Channel to Lundy
Island. The just request of the ports to which I have
alluded is that they may be independent of the Bristol
establishment, as they represent that they have a commerce
fully equal to that of Bristol. Great care must be taken
by the authorities against the inconveniences which may I
arise from different sets of pilots belonging to these several
ports, and the difficulties which may arise from not know-
ing to what port a ship may belong upon its arriving, or in
bad weather the inconvenience which would result from
checking the zeal of the pilots, who would not be sure of
finding that the first on board would be employed. There
are difficulties connected with this port which do not occur
in the cases of the Severn and the Thames, and which
require, consequently, a considerable amount of investiga-
tion. I cordially subscribe to the opinion of the right
honourable member (Mr. Disraeli) that an inquiry of a

most extensive description is required. I have, it
must be remembered, only dealt with a few of the
greater and more salient points ; there are many other
grievances alleged, of which in each particular case I do
not consider myself a competent judge. There are com-
plaints, in many cases, that the rates of pilotage aro ex-
tremely high, and the remuneration excessive. The ques-
tion however, which remains to be dealt with is, how can
that inquiry best be instituted ? With respect to com-
mittees of this house, he would certainly be an ambitious
member who would enter upon the investigation of these
innumerable local jurisdictions with any idea that between
the present time and the prorogation of Parliament he
would be able to bring the inquiry to a conclusion.
Having before me also the report of the commission con-
ducted by such able men as those to whom I have referred,
I am not inclined again to resort to a commission for the
purpose of inquiry. By the aid of the officers placed in
the mercantile marine department, under the bill of the
hon. member for Taunton (Mr. Labouchere), we intend to
construct a schedule which I propose to insert in the bill,
calling upon every pilotage board in the kingdom for com-
plete returns, and there are also provisions in the bill to
ensure the making of those returns, which will not, I
think, be found inefficacious for the purpose. We propose
to have sent to the Board of Trade, to be placed be-
fore the House of Commons, all the bye-laws, regulations,
and qualifications of pilots, their numbers, remuneration,
and other particulars, by which means, I trust, we shall
create, not a temporary, but permanent inquiry, capable
of supervision, but self-acting awl stringent in its charac-
ter. (Hear.) We do not propose, however, to stop there.
We will not be deterred by any impediment in any local
act. There will be in the bill one over-riding power of
reform and inquiry over all existing acts ; and we shall
throw upon every pilotage board in the kingdom the neces-
sity of coming to Parliament with the information re-
quired, and with public responsibility upon them, and we
may, I think, assume that by this time next year we shall
have a full and complete account before ns of the state of
these bodies. Let us now apply the provisions of this bill
to the case of the Severn port. In this case there are phy-
sical as well as legal difficulties to contend with. I have
reason to believe that different plans of reform are urged by
different individuals ; but all agree in the opinion that some
improvement is alsolntely necessary and urgently called for
with respect to this port. I have asked the house to give to
the Queen in Council powers, not of a compulsory, but of
a mediatorial character, and capable of exercising a strong
moral compulsion. I thought it would be too strong a
measure to apply in the first instance for compulsory
powers, but if you clothe us with the proposed mediatonal
power, I will show you how it will be exercised in the case
of the Severn ports. There is fortunately now in the Board
of Trade a gentleman not only of the highest eminence in
his profession, but 'a man who, of all others, is best ac-
quainted with the navigation of the Severn, Capt. Mitchell
(as was understood). If I possessed the mediatorial power
referred to, I would request that gentleman to go down to
the Severn and investigate /on ,the spot all the affairs of
these public bodies. I have no reason to suppose that any
person will refuse to afford the required information ; but
I will ask you to assume such a case. Under the first pro-
vision of the bill they will be required to transmit to the
Board of Trade such information as may enable us to judge
of their present condition • and under the second they will,
upon refusing to afford this information, be treated as re-
calcitrant bodies. I think no one can impugn the mode-
ration of these proposals. We have insured an inquiry far
more efficacious, and of a more concurrent form, than any
which could be obtained by means of a committee. This
being my view of the policy of the case, I propose that you
should give me your permission to introduce a bill to amend
the law with respect to the pilotage of the country. I per-
ceive that a noble lord, connected with the office which I
have now the honour to hold, under the late Government,
put a question in another place to the Government with re-
spect to the consolidation of the laws of the mercantile
marine. I think it must be obvious to the committee that
if you were to attempt to consolidate all the existing laws,
in a few years, with the growing character of our trade and
commerce, you would be called upon to repeal that consoli-
dated law. I therefore invite your calm and indulgent at-
tention to the nature of the proposals with respect to the
light dues, manning, volunteering, salvage, pilotage, and
other important subjects connected with our mercantile
marine which I have now submitted to the committee. I
ought to state that a reduction of 25 per cent, in the rates
of pilotage of vessels in the port of London will be very
speedily effected if the propositions of this bill aro carried
out. I have now concluded the task which the indulgence
of the committee has permitted me to discharge. The
propositions which I have submitted are unambitious
in their character, but I believe that many of the changes
proposed will result in such practical good, and at least I
can tell you that you by making no surrender by adopting
them, to political pressure, nor making any abnormal con-
concessions to the exigencies of certain interest. On the
contrary, you are invited to legislate at a time of tran-
quillity, and her Majesty's Government only ask you to
give effect to what are their sincere convictions. You are
asked to take that course begun by Huskisson and con-
tinued by Peel ; and in the name of British enterprise we
defy competition, from whatever quarter it may come,
believing, sincerely believing, that in proportion as you
retain your place in the vanguard of commercial freedom,
in thatipame proportion will you maintain the pre-eminence
which you have earned both in mercantile prosperity and
maritime policy. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman
concluded by moving for leave to bring in a bill to amend
the law relating to pilotage.
Mr. HUME thanked the right hon. gentleman for his
clear and comprehensive statement, and was glad to hear
him advance in the way of that reform of which he (Mr.
Hume) had ever been the advocate. The Trinity Board
had passed a severe ordeal before the committee of 1834,
and although he (Mr. Hume) had endeavoured to effect a
great change in that board, ho must confess that they had
executed their duties with considerable credit to them-
selves. He did not think that our vessels should be subject
to any charge for lights, but should be placed in the posi-
tion of the vessels of the United States, which were never
taxed in this shape. In this country the pressure of indi-
rect taxation was admitted to be a grievous burden on the
consumer. Now, every tax that was laid upon shipping
was an indirect tax, and enhanced the price of the articles
on board to the consumer. The principle on which they
ought to act, therefore, was this :—The ship being the
means by which the goods were exported or imported, if a
tax were required to maintain the harbours, let that tax
be levied, not upon the ship, but upon the goods at the
wharf. For his own part, however, he hesitated not to say
that the light dues ought to be entirely removed from the
shipping and transferred to the Consolidated Fund, to be
borne by the community at large, as was the case with the
lights on the coast of France and the United States of
America. Further, he wanted to know why the Trinity
House Corporation were to be continued? He did not com-
plain of them that their funds were not properly administer-
ed or their accounts fairly rendered; but he did contend that
the great want of the present day was a responsible board.
He had never yet known an honorary board to be of any use.
The Trinity Board, when first established in the reign of
Elizabeth, acted very efficiently ; but now that nearly all
other public bodies were made responsible, and brought
under public control, he could not see why the Trinity
Board should be made an exception to the general rule.
In that part of the measure of the right hon. gentleman
which proposed to apply the' lighthouse dues to lighthouse
purposes, he (Mr. Hume) entirely concurred. Whilst ho
agreed in that, however, he must say he should like to see
the English sailor placed in a better position than ho occu-
pied at present. He had now no chance or hope of obtain-
ing a refuge in his old age ; in fact, no just provision to
which he was entitled was made for him, although, if they
referred to the report of the committee, they would find
it contained a recommendation that such provision should
be made for him out of the funds to which he contributed.
They might rely upon it, that if they did justice to the
English sailors there would no longer be reason for com-
plaining that the best of them went into the service of the
United States of America and other countries. So far as
the plan of the Government proceeded, he quite approved
of it ; his only objection was that it did not go far enough.
What he wished they would do was to abolish the honorary
board, and have nothing to do with princes and lords, and
persons of that description. They were of no use. If he
might speak plainly, they were of no use there—they were
not wanted. (An Hon. Member—" Lumber.") Yes, they
were.lumber. (A laugh.) So far as the question of salvage
was concerned, he thought we should do well to follow the
examples of France and the United States ; for he had in
assistance to
his possession at that moment the instructions which were
e.whatever. Ile
given to the navies of those countries, and by inch the
officers of every ship were required to afford
ofth eevmeryercoanthtilere
country,marine, not only
aonf
ythoheiarrgo
subject
th Fvrakinchce
was
Anothermnoctohniepr subr
hoped the British navy would not be Country, but
compared
to remain
ilmitesripearesinenttdheigrs degraded setta.te
worthy the consideration of the Gotovekrnment Was the Ad-
miraltyforecipuleanctevintkcoonoaduucsteinogf
Then he was anxious to know
p c e e d i Courts,
s liiththeesedeciaourtys awhbiecihng
serious expense and in
(a laugh), or ratre
The commwith the Warden of the
what was intended to be d
that ttee on sinecures when they made
Cinque Ports
the office ? er What was to be done with
their report agreed
but they required thato
Duke of Wellington, n
quiry should be as it was a sinecure held by the
alteration should then be made ;
mad: upon the subject, and he Pir•
Government he himselfa on the decease of the duke an in;
inquire what th
begged to state, that if no inquiry had been luadltvt,Lthe
to I
had been made
-understood that should move fora committee
Warden of the Ceilntitquoleurmoertnst.s now were, thee rervuzlie
with
noblerealrodrdt ohathde
recentlybeieg been m'
appointed
hat his duties
fore, by a report to be laid 111)°n the their
;,,,3 et: performance,
were, and what he was
to reeeTh-- f that if there were no
because a committee had repor—
tl e whole, he thought
duties the office should cease.
°nnwoluld be productive of
the bill proposed to be broug Let the house know, there-
lliciountry, and he should be
considerable advantage to the ihrollgh the house.
happy to facilitate its pregre.-
-no-Ally in the propositions of
Mr. HENLEY, agni i=egard to salvage, he considered
the Government. 1.71
it a very grave qu'
-Lon whether it should not be entirely

Lord A. PAGET would express his great gratification
at the proposal of the right hon. gentleman the head of the
Board of Trade, for if he carried it out, it would relieve
the shipping interest from one of the greatest burdens
which weighed upon that interest, because in his opinion
the expense of pilotage was one of the heaviest burdens the
shipping interest had to bear. The noble lord here re-
ferred to the Cinque Port pilots, and stated he had the
fact from Mr. Green, of Blackwell, that even though blue
lights were burned for assistance by his vessels, not a single
Cinque Port pilot would render help.
Mr. TURNER would not go through the statement
made to the house at that moment, but there was one cir-
cumstance of importance—the desertion of British seamen
in foreign and colonial ports, which required a few re-
marks. He was informed that there were 80,000 tons of
shipping in Australian ports which could not get away for
want of men through desertion. The power of the local
authorities was quite insufficient to cure the evil. The
penalty of imprisonment, which could be inflicted, was
not sufficient to repress this practice. He trusted, there.
fore, that the local magistrates would have their power
strengthened by some means, but especially by the aid of
a war steamer or two in the Australian ports—the presence
of which would be most material and effective. He thought
Government could not do better than keep the steam-
service in an efficient state, and he was certain that the
pilot interest would not oppose any obstacles to proper
changes and improvements.
Mr. HEADLAM thought the shipping interest had not
been dealt with in that liberal spirit to which they were
entitled, considering the competition to which that interest
was exposed. Still he was glad to see that competition
was to be made even more unrestricted, and though some
dissatisfaction and loss would perhaps be created at first,
he was satisfied that the result would be generally bene-
ficial. He was for removing all restrictions whatever, and
for leaving the shipping interest free and uncontrolled.
He objected to delay on the subject of passing tolls. He
hoped the question would be dealt with forthwith. He
said, do right to the shipping interest, but let the burden
cease from that moment.

Mr. DEEDES said the pilot body had existed for centu-
ries, and before anything was done to injure their interest,
it was right and proper that the whole subject should be
fully and fairly considered. With regard to the education
of pilots, he contended that no one ought to be allowed to
hold the situation and to perform the duties of pilot unless
known to possess sufficient skill and experience. Then with
respect to the suggestion to work on lower terms, that was
a question which was capable of being determined by a
fair consideration of all the facts. If, afters full and im-
partial inquiry, it could be shown that the existing system
could be modified and improved, he should be willing to
agree to the proposition for change.
Sir G. PECHELL had been most anxious for a series
of years to see the good work of reformation effected. It
must be obvious that the whole fabric was coming to an
end. It was, therefore, quite time that something was
done to accelerate that event, and to lay the foundation of
a better system. Ho believed the present measure would
be of great benefit, and he trusted it would meet with sup-
port, for it got rid of the monster evil, the Cinque Ports.
Mr. HASTIE expressed his satisfaction that the light
dues were no longer to be applicable to any other than to
light-house purposes. Ho was also gratified to perceive
that the restriction on the manning of British vessels was
to be taken off. He trusted that some of the propositions
shadowed forth in the speech of the President of the Board
of Trade would be embodied in a bill.
Mr. INGHAM expressed surprise that a greater reduc-
tion in the amount of light dues was not to be effected,
the more especially as the debts to be paid had become so
much reduced. He also thought that, in cases of salvage,
the officers of the navy ought to look to the Admiralty for
remuneration rather than to the merchant service.

After a few words from Mr. STAPLETON,
Mr. HUDSON inquired whether it was intended to
leave the question of the passing of tolls open for inquiry
Mr. CARDWELL replied in the affirmative,
Mr. HUDSON said that such a course, wwhioulloslismibt:3duvd::
unsatisfactory to his constituents. They had expected that
a Ministry of " all the talents" would have been marl
with a measure without resorting to an m ui
AiTherY'l'rwesi.edenvat, of
edar et that
se
ux ne 1
tmd
aepri
20t.:1
always the excuse for postponement.
were taxed for passing from the south
ngdteouhght not to be
borough and Hartlepool
pay its own way. He (Mr. Hudson) knew itaretniilurde°; but
cwhatharged B ohaer dcontendedTrade
hadwas,
sawthi
charged with the errors of other pl
terest would view with dissatisfact'aees, The
shipping in.
right hon. gentleman in this res ion the statement of the
derland, exposed as they were fret* The people of Sun-
with the foreigner, required unrestricted competition
ponement of their case. immediate relief, not a post-
and having received justic They asked for simple justice.
were not prepared to efrom the late Government, they
They were at the r receive less from the present one.
Is. 61. a load on illesent moment subjected to a tax of
be relieved. The timber,t from which they had a right to
of the noble
lord the been been imposed by the government
member
and
he member for the City of London,
(Mr. Hudson) trusted that in the forthcoming budget
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that charge would be
taken out of the tariff. q
Mr. CARDWELL said that he had nothing to do in his
questions ; he had
de art
P ment with fiscal or financial grue:ith any of the
nothing to do with the timber dutaiesihee _x . e
B cn quer. He
questions affecting the balance. 4.. :o for the purpose of post.
denied that inquiry was resorted to
Government Nvas, that
ponement. The only
wish of the
or private interests,
before dealing with public i_
informed as to facts. Those who
they
should be accurately 'no reduction in the duties on
thought there would e
to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's
lights, he would referTh
, measure he should introduce was
coming statement- house, and by now going into
tded •
beforel
the
h bill would be anticipa ,
not yet
' ions of t e
the house resumed,
some of the provisions
then agreed fe,
the bill was read
The motion benin,aving
been reported,
and the resolution h

a first time.
BLACKBURN
DEBATE. EN
—ADJOURNED
N

davcia.ewthsewhhouseich
ttbiar3f retolig.hriGpi
htus:eot I;
reuefosiheUilm°
extreme caution i,f, wished.iil former
eorntho thises occasion
reinforceoci t °e:ict
were
thei
ro
en . t
ou referenceoist
en s
pen evidentlilookingd
ttohe
the powers
rN;4l:BelleStt Oi :1
ta
abide olodniferaFbiyatrtitiles7deineteitwwisiasotnhqof their com-
mittees. It appeared to him, that the house would be
rye adbasenngeeemousf ac°nyur:poifrtthferoy m a committee jus-
twrit:kyiitnnsigiAiuvtcheh a suspension. Why, in one of the cases before
the house only five cases of bribery had been made out,
and in another only one, though 15 or 16 were decided to
be entirely guiltless. (Hear.) It used formerly to be a
question for parties whether writs should be suspended or
not ; but if the house were to agree to the present motion,
it seemed to him that they would be reverting to the old
practice which the Grenville Act was intended to cure.
(Hear, hear.) He, therefore, must say, that the constitu-
tion and general government was much more likely to be
infringed upon by the passing of the resolution than by