The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-07 00:00:00

he could say five words, strangers were ordered to with-
draw, and the matter of order was discussed with closed

doors.

The committee divided during this period, when the
numbers were—
For the amendment 6l
Against it 286

Majority
The resolution was accordingly carried.
Mr. MOO RE moved that the chairman do report pro-
gress, and ask leave to sit again in order that the point
of order might be discussed with the Speaker in the
chair.

Mr. LABOUCHERE concurred with the motion,
and said it was most desirable that the point of order
should be decided by the house, and not the committee.
Lord J. RUSSELL also concurred in the motion
under the circumstances stated.
And the question, that the Chairman report progress,
was put and carried.
The house having resumed, the Chairman reported
progress and obtained leave to sit again.
Lord J. RUSSELL then stated what had occurred
about the point of order, and added that, as the hon.
member for Mayo had been instrumental in raisin, the
point of order perhaps he would be good enough to
continue the discussion.
Mr. MOORE then proceeded to explain to the Speaker
the position in which the matter stood. When the debate
was interrupted last night the hon. member for New
Ross was in possession of the chair, but the Chairman
of the committee tonight, instead of calling the hon.
member for New Ross to resume th debate,
proceeded in a hurried manner to put the ques-
tion, which was clearly a violation of his duty.
(Hear, hear.)

Mr. BOUVERIE said he had committed the mistake,
if mistake it was, unintentionally ; but the house should
remember that he hesitated some time before he put the
question, with the view of seeing if any one wished to
speak. The hon. member for Droitwich, seeing his
hesitation, rose and asked him what the question was,
and before he put it he gave him a distinct answer.
However, he had no intention to take any one by sur-
prise. _

Sir J. PAKINGTON said this dispute only showed
the necessity for order being called and obtained before
any question was put.
The SPEAKER said there was a difference between
the practice of the house and that of its committee. In
the house a member could only speak once, but in com-
mittee members could speak as often as they pleased.
It was therefore difficult to determine this point, but the
1 house would remember that when a member moved the
adjournment of a debate in the house, it certainly gave
him the privilege of opening the debate on the
following day, it yet did not follow that the Speaker
was bound to call upon him, unless he rose to address
the house. Nor it did not appear that the hon. member
for New Ross rose when the question was just in com-
mittee ; and therefore, according to analogy, th• Chair-
man was not out of order in putting the question to the
vote.

Lord J. RUSSELL then moved that the Speaker do
Leave the chair.

Colonel SIBTHORP said there had been so much
confusion that he was really at a loss to understand what
had occurred, but he could undertake to say that
although he was opposed to the income tax in any
shape, he yet thought, after the conduct of her repre-
sentatives, Ireland ought to be called upon to pay
double the income tax. (A. laugh.)
After a scene of much confusion, during which several
motions of adjournment were made, the Speaker left
the chair, and the house again went into committee,
Mr. MAGAN rose and said that he wished to avoid say-
ing what he thought--(much laughter)—but the Irish
members were badly treated with respect to this subject of
the income tax. (Hear, hear.) The Irish members held a
meeting up stairs, at which certain matters of importance
were discussed, and they were informed that if the govern-
ment, who were expected to succeed to ,office, were in
power they would not impose an income tax on Ireland.
(" Hear, hear," and cries of " Name, name." That he
thought was a matter which affected somebody—whether
it was the character of the Irish member who made the
announcement or the character of the government it was
not for him to say. He would leave that matter in the
hands of the house, and the house would decide,whether
such conduct was honourable or not. (Hear.) The hon.
member for Clonmel interrupted him when he was about
to make that statement. He certainly made every allow-
ance for the position in which that hon. member now
stood. (Laughter.) If that hon member really wished
to accomplish what he pretended by his motion last night,
and which he did not much simplify bthe incoherent
wanderings of a guilty conscience, which had violated its
pledges—(loud laughter.)
Mr. LAWLESS, much excited, rose to order. He ap-
pealed to the chairman to know in what way he trespassed
on the rules of the house or the rules which befitted an
assembly of gentlemen when he moved that Ireland be
exempted from the income tax. In making that motion
he pledged his honour he had no other motive. (Loud
cries of " Order, order," " Chair, chair," which continued
for a long time, Mr. Magian and Mr. Lawless being left on
their legs and endeavouring to address the committee.) At
length

Mr. WALPOLE rose and said it was necessary for the
due regulation of discussion, whether the Speaker or Mr.
Bouverie sat in the chair, that the decision of the chairman
should be implicitly obeyed. The hon. member for Clon-
mel had now twice interrupted the hon. member for West-
meath, and it was quite irregular for one hon. member to
interrupt another whilst speaing, unless he rose to a point
of order. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Clonmel
rose to a point of order, but, instead of speaking to
the point of order, he was proceeding to state other
matters. (Hear.)
Mr. LAWLESS—I object to the words "guilty con-
science." I— (loud cries of " Order, order, " Chair,
chair").

Mr..BOITVERIE called on Mr. Magan to proceed, but
(
Mr. Lawless refused to give way, and moved that the
words of the hon. member for Westmeath be taken down.
(Laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said ho agreed with the right hon.
gentleman opposite that it was absolutely necessary that
the house should maintain silence ; and in the next place,
that hon. members should be governed by the decision of
the chairman. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said that the hon. member near him (Mr.
Lawless) made a motion which, although he (Mr. Hume)
heard, he believed the chairman could not hear in conse-
quence of the noise. The hon. gentleman complained of
the words " guilty conscience," and moved that those
words be taken down. (Laughter, and " oh, oh.") He
apprehended that by the rule of the house he was entitled
to have the words taken down, if he thought they cast any
reflection upon him. (Hear.)
The CHAIRMAN said he did not hear the hon. gentle-
man making any motion, and to the best of his judgment
he believed that the hon. member for Clonmel had tra-
velled out of the point of order. (Hear, hear.) He did
not hear the hon. member for Westmeath make use of the
words complained of. If he used the disorderly words he
should, of course, call him to order. But with regard to
taking down words, he begged to inform the committee
that a mistake had been made on the previous night with
regard to this matter ; for he had since been informed that
it was for the house, with the Speaker in the chair, and
not for the committee, to decide whether the words should
be taken down or not. (Cheers.)
Mr. MAGAN said that the hon. member for New Ross,
whose words had been ordered to be taken down, had come
out of that ordeal with such flying colours that ho was ra-
ther ambitious to have his words taken down. (Loud
laughter.) But he would not be so obstinate as that hon.
gentleman, for if he said anything offensive, he was most
desirous of withdrawing it. (Hear, hear.) At the same
time he must say the hon. member for Clonmel did not
seem disposed to allow him the necessary liberty to state
naked facts. (Hear, hoar, and laughter.) He was
going to state the way in which the Government had be-
haved with respect to the imposition of the income tax
in Ireland. (Laughter.) He was about to state that per-
sons who were considered to be accredited both by the
Whigs and Peelites did by creating confusion and making
statements such as he had referred to, directly procure the
defeat of Lord Derby and his Government. (Loud Opposi-
tion cheers.) The same parties now accused them (the
Irish members) of wanting to require from any Govern-
ment the same thing that they required of the present Go-
vernment, and of wishing to bring back Lord Derby to
power. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Mogan) wished to state
plainly that he id want to bring back Lord Derby, but he
only wanted to bring him back for the purpose of putting
him out again. (Loud laughter.) Now, with regard to
those gentlemen on the opposite side who talked of being
conscientious and independent, he must say that they were
not independent, and their conciences were kept in the
boroughs they represented. They were not allowed to
bring their consciences there, and were left no discretion
in the matter whatever. (Laughter.) If he might make
use of a vulgar expression in reference to them, he would
say that they were like a pennyworth of butter wrapped
up in Mr. Sharman Crawford's bill. (Laughter.) He be-
.ieved he was the only member who professed independent
politics in the house. (Loud laughter.) He claimed to be
independent, and it was perfectly well known why he said
so. (Laughter.) Those gentlemen opposite who voted
with the Government had violated the pledges they made
to their constituents. (Oh, oh.) He said that in the
most polite manner possible. (Much laughter.) There
were two classes of Irish representatives. Some few of I
them, who voted with the Government, such as the hon.
member for Kerry (Mr. Herbert) and his colleague, voted,
he had no doubt, conscientiously. But there was another
class who had no discretion left them. He rose on the part
of those Irish members who had kept their pledges, for
the purpose of saying that it would be extremely conve-
nient if in future no emissaries of the Government were
found at the meetings of Irish members. (Loud laughter.)
Colonel GREVILLE said that he was surprisedtllent.
hon, gentlemen opposite,
who
appeared
to
be
seh
skinned when imputations were cast upon them, should
t
themselves cast reflections on others, and tell thoseogie sside
of the house that th©y could not be impartial on
sub-
ject. (Hear, hear.) He was surprised thattheh°
mem-
ber for Callow (Mr. Ball) should have made the
allusions
and cast the imputations he did, after the statements made
by the hon. member for Westmeath. He heard rumours
of the same kind, but his vote was not influenced by those
and promises. The right hon. gentleman the
rumoursPresident of the Board of Control, however, appeared to
be somewhat influenced by them, because be said ho would
not consent to impose an income tax on Ireland, although
he was now going to vote for that proposition, on the
ground that Ireland was to have remitted to her 4,000,000/.
of consolidated annuities, or an annual charge of 245,000/.
Now, a committee of the House of Lords decided that
Ireland was not bound in equity to pay half of that charge.
Yet Ireland was to have an income tax to the extent of
460,0001. and an increase of the spirit duties (bear)—the
result of which would be that for 131,000/. —remitted, we
should have to pay 500,0001. additional t -
(ol itltei oaon . r
elrlnoomNevnast
glad to see Irish members opposite
side) holding themselves independent of
the Government,
and withholding their support from a measure for imposing
the income tax on Ireland. There were questions of vital
importance to the interests of that country still unsottlod,
and while they remained so it was necessary that the Irish
party should continue
mergingnt
intiein
id n dent of the one side or the
other, and avoid
strength into that of either.
Mr. E. BALL had understood the hon. gentleman the
member for Westmeath
member of that house, who
I ken.. rr
an) to say that a certain
was an accredited agent of the
Whig and Peel party, had intimated to the Irish members
that, if they would assistin turning out Lord Derby's mi-
nistry, Ireland should
not
tax. (Hear, hear.) ne be made liable to the property
(Mr. Ball) did not know much of
the usages of that house, but he was quite sure the public