The Sun.
London, England, 1853-08-04 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT•

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.)
EPISCOPAL AND CAPITULAR ESTATE BILL.
On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. WIGRAM pointed out a variety of legal and
technical objections to the bill. He acknowledged that
a necessity existed for legislation on this subject ; but at
this period of the session it was perfectly hopeless to
think of perfecting an important measure of this nature.
A commission was now sitting on the subject of colle-
giate and cathedral churches ; and although he did not
object to the principle of the bill, he thought, for the
reason he had stated, that it would be better to post-
pone it until a future session. He should therefore
move, as an amendment, that the bill be read a second
time this day three months.
Sir R. H. INGLIS seconded the amendment, and
explained that the simple object of the bill was to trans-
fer the property of the oldest landowners in the country
to the management of three lay commissioners sitting
in London. All the capitular bodies in the country
viewed the bill as a measure of injustice, and considering
that a commission was now sitting upon this very sub-
ject, and also considering the late period of the session,
he thought it would be better to reject the measure for
the present.
Mr. S. HERBERT believed that the existing system
was excessively faulty, and exposed the dignitaries of the
Church to unjust imputations. He quite agreed, there-
fore, that the subject was one which Parliament ought
to take up, but he did not think this bill dealt with it in
a proper manner. He decidedly disapproved of its prin-
ciple, but as it was quite impossible that the Legislature
could deal with this question, until it was in possession
of the report of the commission now sitting on the sub-
ject, he thought it would be inexpedient to proceed fur-
ther with this bill, even supposing that its machinery
was good. (Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. VERNON,
The Marquis of BLANDFORD said, at the present
moment he did not purpose to proceed further than ask
the house to affirm the principle of the bill, by passing
the second reading, and thus declare its opinion that
ecclesiastical property ought to be placed under the
management of laymen. The salaries of the clergy
should be made fixed instead of fluctuating, as was the
case under the existing system ; and all that he noivi
called upon the house to do was to affirm this princbip et.
The fact that a commission was now sitting on the su jecd
should not be allowed to stand in the way ofthe second
reading of this bill, because the subject had already
investigated by a commission, and the recommendations
Where,
of that commission were embodied in this bill.
then, was the use of delaying further thesettlement of
this question ? The existing system was humiliating to
the bishops, and while this bill would
remove them
from the worldly care attendant upon the management
of temporal estates, it would at the same time protect
them
from these humiliatinginfluences ; and, on the
whole, he thought the house would be quite justified in
passing the second reading. h
Sir B. HALL said he was sure tat all members of
this house were agreed as to the objects with which
ecclesiastical property should be dealt with, however
much they might differ as to the mode to be employed.
He was not less sure that no member in the house could
doubt that the noble lord, who had devoted so much time
and trouble to the preparation of this bill, was a sincere
friend of the Church; and that his bill was intended to
secure these objects, in the pursuit of which all were
agreed. It would be better, therefore, if those gentle-
men who objected to the particular machinery proposed
to be employed by this bill were, instead of rejecting it
summarily, to consent to the second reading, and after-
wards, when it was brought under their notice in com-
mittee, propose such amendments or further pro-
visions as they might think necessary. He then
alluded to several late instances of the corrupt manner
in which ecclesiastical property was managed under
the existing system, and referred particularly to the cases
of Leighton Buzzard (mentioned in the papers this
morning), the chapter of Westminster, and Rick-
mansworth, where it was alleged that the grossest
abuses bad been allowed to prevail. For the sake
of the Church itself, these abuses ought to be
stopped ; and, as he believed this bill would have that
effect, it should certainly have his support. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL thought it would have been far
better had the noble lord who had charge of the bill
adopted the suggestion, and postponed it until a future
session. He would not say that the principle of the bill
was one which Parliament might not hereafter adopt ;
but for the reasons which others had already stated,
he should be compelled to vote against the
second reading, if the noble lord pressed the
question to a division. The noble lord then proceeded
to revise the past legislation upon this subject, and gave
it as his opinion, after having looked carefully at both
sides of the question, that no blame whatever attached
to the bishops, as the public seemed to suppose.
Mr. AGLIONBY had always been of opinion that
the property of the Church was the property of the
State, and it was only just and right that the Legis-
lature should see to its proper management. This bill
was based upon this principle, and he therefore approved
of it, but at this advanced period of the session it was
hopeless to think of proceeding with it with any pros-
pect of success.
The Marquis of BLANDFORD said, in deference to
the strong feeling which the house had expressed, he
should not proceed further with this bill now, but at the
same time, he should state that he had the permission
of the Government to lay the same bill on the table next
year, without opposition.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the order
for the second reading was discharged.
EXPENSES OF ELECTIONS BILL.

On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Mr. C. BERKELEY said he had made considerable
alteration in the bill, and it was now simply a mea-
sure for preventing the use of flags and bands at elec-
tions.

Mr. COWPER said, considering that a general mea-
sure was to be brought in next session on the general
subject of election reform, he thought this bill ought to
be withdrawn.

After a few words from Sir C. BURRELL,
Col. SIBTHORP repeated his opinion that this was a
mean, low, dirty bill. (A laugh.) It was dangerous,
delusive, and a trap intended to catch the honest open-
hearted man who happened to extend a little generosity
to his friends and supporters. Talk of bribery and cor-
ruption, indeed ! he for one had never been guilty
of anything of the sort, but he had no doubt,
if the house was sincere in their search for bribery, they
would find it if they only looked to the Treasury Bench.
(A laugh.) But this bill was a mean and paltry mea-
sure, not directed against real corruption such as he had
referred to, but against the man who exercised a little
charity ; for if a candidate, who saw a poor man
stretched on his bed with illness, gave him a shilling,
it would be called bribery, and his seat forfeited, not
that, for his part, the loss would cause him (the gallant
colonel) any regret, but the contrary, were it not for the
duty he owed to his constituents. He concluded by
moving that the bill he committed this day three months.
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment l9
Against it B5
Maj ority —66
The house then went into committee on the bill.
On clause 1,

Col. SIBTIIORP reiterated his objections to the
bill, and complained that by the clause all kinds of
music would be put down at elections.

After a short discussion,
Sir J. GRAHAM said he had voted in the minority
because he thought it was most important that they
should proceed to the consideration of the next bill,
with respect to the care and treatment of lunatics. He
did not see any great offence in playing music or ringing
bells to celebrate the return of a member, and it was
descending to very small matters at elections to render
these things illegal.
Mr. MALIN'S moved that the Chairman do leave the
chair.

Mr. 11. BERKELEY said it was futile to say that
there was not time to pass the bill, and complained of
the indecency of picking it to pieces after it bad already
more than once received the sanction of the house. A
great deal had been said about the Government measure
of reform which loomed in the future, but he thought
there was a very poor chance of its being one that would
satisfy the people.
Mr. E. BALL trusted, after what had passed, that
the bill would not be pushed on.
Mr. V. SMITH likewise urged its withdrawal.
Mr. COWPER supported the bill.
Mr. BASS entreated the hon. and gallant member
who had charge of the bill to insist on proceeding with it.
Sir D. L. EVANS was in favour of the measure, but
he did not see why a band of music should void an
election.
Mr. C. BERKELEY was determined to persevere
with the bill unless it was negatived by a division He
would leave it to the common sense of the house, but he
did not include in that
had the hon. member for Lincoln.
(A laugh.) The bill
been introduced to place
bons on a proper and better footing, and if it Case ere:
.Jected
the blame would rest with the house and not with

him.
Col. STETTIOHP said the hon. member had been
pleased to allude to him in not very courteous terms,
but would treat him with the contempt which he de-
served. (A. laugh.) He would only say there were two
kinds of common sense—common sense and no sense,
and he would rather possess the first than the last.
After some further discussion the committee divided,
when there app
For the chairman leaving the chair 47
84

Against ......... .....................
Mal ority ........................... —37
Mr. COWPER moved an amendment, the effect of
which was, to substitute a penalty of 1001. for the loss of
a seat.
The committee divided, and the numbers were—
For the amendment ................ 73
Against it . 43
Majority
The amendment was consequently carried
DI
r. LIDDELL moved that shillings be substituted
for pounds.
After some discussion,
Mr. W. F. H1511.1E moved that the chairman do re-
port progress, and the committee divided.

For reporting progress
Against

Ca
45
—2l

Majority
The house then resumed.
LUNATICS' CARE AND TREATMENT BILL.
quite
The house then went into committee upon this bill
Mr. MITCHELL thought clauses 4 and 5
were
unnecessary for the purposes of the bill.
11r. H. DRUNIAOND gave notice that early next