The Sun.
London, England, 1854-02-21 00:00:00

PETITIONS.

Mr. E. BALL presented a petition from the Guardians'
of the Newmarket Union praying for an amendment of
the law of settlement.

Mr. FAGAN presented petitions from the proprietors
of several Irish new%papers, praying for the repeal of the
paper duty.
Mr. FOX presented a petition from the inhabitants of
Oldham in favour of vote by ballot.
Mr. COLLIS presented a petition from the Guardians
of Plymouth praying for the repeal of the law of settle -
Iment.

Mr. CRAUFORD presented a petition from the corpo-
ration of Forfar in favour of decimal coinage.
Mr. M. GIBSON presented a petition from the Na-
tional Temperance Society praying for the abolition of the
newspaper stamp.
Mr. E SMITH presented a petition from Stratford pray-
ing for the abolition of existing system of taking coasting
trade.

Mr. HEADLAM presented a petition from Newcastle-
upon-Tyne in favour of throwing open the coasting trade to
foreign ships
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.

Sir E. DEA.RING gave notice that on the second
reading of the bill to amend the representation of
the people of England and Wales, he should move a
resolution to -the effect that 4.ihe state of our foreign rela-
lions renders the present moment inopportune for the dis
suasion of any measure of PrArliamentary Reform. (aieers.)
Mr. G. E. H. VERN(..iN wished in reference to the
Parliamentary Representation Bill, to ask Lord J. Russell
whether the calculation of the population in counties has
been made exclusive of, the population of all repre3ented
towns and places ;;such as, for instance, the Hundred of
Bassetla,w, in the l'%orthernDivision of Nottinghamshire.
Lord J. RUSSELL said some returns had been moved
for by the hon. member for Montrose, and which were in
preparation, warald supply all the information asked for.
Mr. HUME asked when the Reform Bill would be de.
livered.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied immediately.
THE WAR QUESTION.
Mr. COBDEN wished to ask the noble lord the mem-
ber for the city of London whether the Government
had come to any decision with reference to blockading the
commercial ports of Russia. He asked this question in
consequence of the order in council which had just been
issued with reference to the exportation of arms and ma-
chinery.
Lord J. RUSSELL replied that no decision had come
to or order given upon the point.
Mr. BRIGHT wished to ask the noble lord a question
upon the subject of the proclamation referred to by his
honoumble friend. Part of that proclamation referred to
machinery. Now, large contracts for machinery remained
in Wit country incomplete, from other nations besides
Measles. For instance, there was a contract from Denmark
few half a million of machinery, which had yet to be
supplied, while there was a firm at present that was in the
habit of forwarding coastwise machinery and implements
to be used for agricultural purposes only, and since it was
just possible that large bodies of persons might be thrown
out of employment if this proclamation was not precisely
understood, he wished to ask the noble lord what was the real
construction to be put upon it. He wished to know if the
proclamation was to be construed according to the broad
meaning of its words, or did the Government intend to
issue any instructions by which the trade might still be
carried on and left as free as possible. (Hear, hear.) The
house should understand that there were other countries
that we traded with besides Russia, and if this proclamation
was strictly enforced, our foreign customers would he
driven to America or Belgium. (Hoar.)
Mr. WILSON said, as this was purely a Treasury ques-
-tion, and as he was cognisant of all the arrangements that
had taken place with reference to this proclamation, perhaps
he might be allowed to answer the question. Now, the cir-
cumstance which gave rise to the issue of this proclamation
was this: last week the Commissioners of Customs reported
to the Treasury that large quantities of ammunition had
been entered outwards for Odessa, and having been so
entered outwards, the Commissioners thought it to
be their duty to call the attention of the Govern-
ment to the fact. (Loud cheers.) It then became
the duty to consider what powers the law had armed them
with in order to prevent such an exportation being effected.
and they wore advised by the Solicitor of Customs that the
only course that was properly open to them was to avail
themselves of a clause in the act of Parliament passed last
session for the consolidation of the Customs Acts. This
clause empowered the Government to prohibit the expor-
tation of arms and ammunition, when the exigencies of
the State required such a step, and accordingly this pro-
clamation had been issued to meet the case he had already
referred to ; but where it could be shown that the
articles to be exported were not intended for the
enemy, or to be used in any way against
our allies or the cause in which we wore engaged, tho
Commissioner of Customs had received permission to let
An order in council would accordingey be
them pass.
issued to-more ow, authorising to pass all shipments where
there was no strong, clear, and positive reason for suppos-
ing that they were intended for the enemy. (Cheers.)
Mr. BRIGHT remarked then that the proclamation did
to all exportations to the ports of
not absolutely apply
Russia. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WILSON observed that was not what he said.
But a case in point would explain what he meant to con-
vey. A vessel—the Gem—had been entered outwards for
Alexandria with a large quantity of machinery on
board, such as was generally used for propelling stlelam
vessels, and upon the Commissioners of Customs ea
thatthe
the machinery was not intended for the use o
enemy, he produced a letter showing that the mac i-
nery was intended for the use of, and had been ordered
by the Pacha of Egypt. The commissioner upon receiving
that proof had not the slightest hesitation in immediately
allowing the shipment to take place, and this would be the
course followed with reference to all future shipments and
wherever it could be satisfactorily shown that the ship-
ments were not for the use of the enemy they would be
allowed to pass. (Cheers.)
Sir J. WALSH wished to ask the noble lord the mem-
ber for the city of London if the Government had re-
ceived any official information of an outbreak amongst
the Greek subjects of the Ottoman empire, and if so, had
they any reason to suppose that such an insurrection had
been fomented and instigated by the Government or the
King of Greece? (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Government had received
information that such an outbreak had taken place at Arva,
but they had received nothing to induce them to believe
that the insurrection had been fomented by the King of
Greece. (Hear.)
The subject then dropped.
PAROCHIAL SURVEYORS.
Mr. M. SMITH wished to ask the noble lord the Sec-
retary of State for the Home D partment, whether it is the
intention of Government to introduce any measure during
the present Session of Parliament, for placing the repair
of the highways in England and Wales under district of
parochial surveyors.
Lord PALMERSTON said no such measure was in
preparation.
BOARD OF HEALTH.
Mr. COLLIER wished to ask the Secretary for the
Home Department, whether the Government intend to
propose any alterations in the Health of Towns Act.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the Act of Parliament
constituting the Board of Health would expire at the end
of the preeent eelaion, And therefore it would be necessary

for him to ;ring in a bill to reconstruct the board, and in
that meastu3 various improvements would be made in the
constitutioE of the board.

GLASGOW POST-OFFICE.
Mr. MICGREGOR asked the cause of the delay in
completing Ae Post-office at Glasgow?
Mr. WILN replied, the delay was chiefly attributable
to the peopleof Glasgow themselves, but the works would
be speedily reamed.
ADJOURMD DEBATE—THE WAR QUESTION.

On the ordr of the day to resume the adjourned debate
on Mr. LAY.RD'S motion respecting our relations with

Russia,

Mr. COMM rose and said, it was because, even after
the speech of the noble lord- (Lord J. Russell) on Friday
night, which sounded to him (Mr. Cobden) like the war
blast before t,e crash of arms, he was still at a loss to make
out exactly or position. We had been now so excited by
the aggressionif Russia upon Turkey, that we looked upon
it as an affron to ourselves, and so had nearly forgotten the
origin of this ntserable quarrel. It should be borne in mind
that in 1851 a tentleman, M. Lavallette, presented himself
at Constantimple, and shocked us by the " emrgetic"
way in which h insisted upon the restoration of the Holy
Places, almost a rudely as Prince Monschikoff did after-
wards. That gntleman Lavallette) represented the
Republic of Frttce, and he it was who first disturbed the
status quo aboulthe Holy Places. We were told that, in the
case of France, 1 was true she most handsomely withdrew
her demand. (her, hear.) But still, it must be remem-
bered, that it we France that first disturbed the status
quo. It was hart-sickening to find that, after 700 or
800 years of Clrietianitv, we were going to fight —the
world was going .o be deluged in blood, not for Christian-
ity but for Malommedanism. (Cries of " Oh.") The
hon. member real a proclamation from the Sultan, and a
counter-proclamaion from Russia, about the guarantee
for the Holy ?laces. The Porte refused to give' a
special, but aped to give a general, guarantee on
this subject, and the four Powers then drew np
a note with the object, which was approved by the
English and Freach Governments, and accepted by
the Emperor of Rosie, but refused by Turkey, and words
bearing an interpretation different from those previously
agreed to by Tarkty proposed to be inserted in the note.
That being the h4ory of the matter, the practical ques-
tion we have befog us was, was it wise or prudent that
Turkey should have been advised not to sign
that note ? Wlat did Russia want ? An oppor-
tunity of interfeing in Turkey when she chose, pre-
cisely as we did rith Brazil, when we endeavoured to
make her respect ler own treaties. It had been said we
were endeavouring to sustain the independence of Turkey;
but the question wad, had Turkey any real independence;
and it came to this—that we were going to deluge Europe
with blood on an infinitessimal ground of quarrel.
If Turkey were a country with a population all highly
civilised—if a similar thing occurred for instance with re-
gard to Prussia, and after helping Prussia to get rid of
her oppressors, we could then leave her to her own excel-
lent Government. But was that the case with Turkey ?He
said, whether it came from Russia or from England, the
Christian population of Turkey were looking for aid against
their own Government. He (Mr. Cobden) at the close of last
session, when this subject was incidentally brought for-
ward, stated to the house what was now made clear, that
it was the condition of the Christian population of Turkey
formed the main feature of this quarrel. Lord Stratford
had left Constantinople last year not expecting to go back
to it, and he was then entertained at a dinner by
the British residents, and he made a speech there.
Lord Stratford was, however, specially re-appointed to
Constantinople, and he (Mr. Cobden) would read to the
house an extract from Lord Clarendon's despatch to Lord
Stratford, in which he was instructed to make strong re-
monstrances with the Sultan and his Government on the
reckless mad-administration of the Turkish empire as re-
garded the Christian population. On 21th June Lord Cla-
rendon again wrote to Lord Stratford teliing him to re-
monstrate with the Porte against the inferiority of
the position of the Christian population, inasmuch as their
evidence would not be received in the Turkish Courts of
Law. Lord Clarendon further instructed Lord Stratford,
to urge upon the Porte that such a state of things " could
no longer be tolerated by Christian Powers. Now he (Mr.
Cobden) asked what good came of an alliance between two
governments, where the one asks the other to abandon tho
dictates of the Koran—which entered into the civil law as '
well as into the religious observances of the Turkish people.
About that very time Lord Stratford had very properly
caused inquiries to be made, through our consuls in
Turkey, as to the state of the Christian population. Lord
Stratford got a great number of these reports, which he (Mr.
Cobden) was sorry to find so garbled in the blue-books.
Those reports Lord Stratford submitted to the Turkish
Government, and he wrote twice to that Government
afterwards, pressing upon them again and again the
cruelties exercised towards the Christian population.
(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Cobden) said when he
alluded last session to the state of Turkey. the noble
lord the member for Tiverton (Lord Palmerston) made
a declaration to this effect—" I assert, without fear of con-
tradi -tion, that Turkey so far from having gone back dur-
ing the last 30 years, has made more improvement in every
possible way than perhaps was ever made by any other
country during the same period." (Hear, hear.) Now,
he (Mr. Cobden) asked if the noble lord was still of that
opinion, and if he was, upon what intelligible grounds
he founded it—for certainly those reports of our
own consuls in Turkey, and the language used by Lord
Clarendon in his despatches to Lord Stratford, told a very
different tale. (Hear.) We were asked to form an alli-
ance with Turkey, or to use a commercial phrase, to go
into partnership with her, and he maintained that it was
the more necessary we should inquire into her present con-
dition and future prospects. It might perhaps be said
that the discontent of the Christians in Turkey was stirred
up by neighbouring countries ; but it appeared to him
that the sufferings and wrongs of the Christians in turkey
were so great that they must explode, and we might expect
to hear of an insurrection-among them. He (Mr. Cobden)
did not mean to disparage the Turk because he was of a
different religion from himself, but he maintained that
the majority of the population of Turkey were themselves
Christians ; and they might depend upon it, if Tur-
key was invaded by Russia, and those consular
documents and ambassadorial despatches be true, we might
send 20,000, or 30,000, or 50,003 troops there, it would be
in vain for us, with the great body of the people of Turkey
against us. He hoped, at ad events, that the troops we were
going to send to Turkey would not be employed in settling
any internal dispute in that country. but that we would
carry out the nonintervention principle in that respect, at
all events. Looking at it as a religious question, although
he was not disposed to make it one, was there not a strong
religious feeling in Turkey ? There was nothing but
religions fanaticism on the one sid , and impious religions
manifestoes on the other. Oxier Paella made no appeal to
any but the Mahomedan element, telling them, in his
address, when fighting with the enemy, to be firm and
courageous, and to be ready to sacrifice their heads and their
lives for their religion and their Government. The appeal
was made solely to the fanaticism of the country, and the
Maltotnedans formed only a fourth of the whole population
of Turkey in Europe. It was no patriotic appeal —it was
re] igi'ais fanaticism, that brought up troops from the remote
parts of Asia and Africa. That certainly was no proof of
the progress of improvement in a country, unless the being
able to maintain an army six months in the field could be
considered such. He would not have referred to the com-
mercial view of the question if it had not been used as an
orpiment by other hon. gentlemen, who contended that the
war with Russia would have the effect of putting a stop to
our Trade with Turkey. That was referred to by a noble
lord in order to show how insignificant our trade was with
Russia as compared with Turkey. He believed that feel-
ing, which he would show to be erroneous, was very much
shared in by the people of this country, and that there
was a feeling abroad that we were about to fight for pecu-
niary gain. He was prepared to show that that feeling was
erroneous. It was not easy to ascertain the precise amount
of the trade between this country and Russia; but he had
gone into the City among he most eminent merchants
engaged in the Russian, Greek, and Levant trades, and he
was astonished at the result of his inquiries, as he had not
estimated it at half so much. He had been told that the
trade with Russia, that their exports to this country were
less than 2,0J0,000/.—that Russia was a protectionist
country, and was under a protectionist delusion, as many
persons in this country formerly were. (A laugh.) He had
been under the impression that their exports amounted to
5,000,0001. or 6,000,0001., and some persons said that even
that was an exaggeration. He got his information from
sources that might be relied upon. He had got the account
from the different houses, and here were the exports for
the last year :
Tallow £1,800,000
Linseed 1,300,000
Flax and hemp
Wbeat
Wool 300,000
Oats
Other grain., 500,000
Bristles
Timber, deal,- and other woods
Iron
Copper 140,000
Hides 60,000
Miscellaneous matters
Making in all 13.020,0001. as our imports from Russia.
(Hoar, hear.) That was in the year 1853, when there was
a large import of wheat. The other house to which he
applied gave him an average year, making the amount
11,030,000/. • but it put down wheat at 2,000,0001. instead
of 4,000,0004, which made precisely the difference. He
was informed that, in addition to that, about 1,000,0001.
sterling of produce of Russia came down the Bug, the Vis-
tula, and from other ports in the Black Sea ; and he was
under the mark when he said that the exports of Russia
t Most of these were articles of paramount value
to this country might be taken at 12,000,0001. sterling an-
nually.instainmcpe. How importance
could theirtotheirm machineryanictur or es.
how could
Take tallow,
for
and
locomotives travel unless they had grease for their wheels
g)e r
ei tkhnreewg regard
that
ton
01 ins
persons,e ed,th the
were
c(lamlaburighd()or.
hon.
member d
in its supply than the agriculturists.more interested
that the food for cattle was too They complained
high. Did they want the
linseed cut off? As regarded flax
and hemp, in the large
constituency he had the honour to represent, if a state of
things could be supposed in which they would be cut off
w
from all intercourse with Russia, there
ouidbe y
great distress and misery in some districts in theNvVeerst
Riding of Yorkshire. Again, Russian iron • was an article
which entered into the production of their finest steel ; he
was told in Sheffield that they would find it difficult to
carry on the finest part of their manufactures unless they
were supplied with Russian iron. He turned now to
Turkey. It was stated that their trade with Turkey
amounted to about three millions. That was true, but he
believed that only one million of what was set down as
exports to Turkey went to Persia, Trebizond, and central
Asia, through the Black Sea. Turkey did not import for
its own consumption more than 2,000,0001. or 2,500,0001.,
so thet they had a Russian trade that was three times
greater than
that of Turkey. There was no one foreign
country whose trade was so important to the people of
erhaps, the United States ;
England as Russia, except, p
and it should be remembered that all their exports went in
their own bottoms. There could be no ground, then, for
the commercial preference given to Turkey; on the con-
trary, it was all on the other side. Now, with regard to
the war, he would not say a word except as to the
means. Were they to convey land forces into Turkey,
or would they not fall back upon the common, sense
and experience of twenty or thirty years ape? What
would come of it if they were to fight battles , 1 500 miles
off, with land forges ? He thought they ought not to
send their armies to be mixed up with the internal con-
tests of a semi-barbarous country. They might send 20,000
or 30,000 men, but they would find great difficulty in
getting'them away again. Let them send their natural
strength—their fleets—to protect Turkey externally; but
. let them not send their armies. Let them look at France.