The Sun.
London, England, 1854-03-01 00:00:00

delicacy. (Hear.) Here is a case for inquiry—let not
these daughters of Catholics be subject to grievances
which it is unfit should be endured by any subjects of a
free state. (Hear.) But, on the other hand, to go into
an inquiry to find out (as the hon. member proposed)
what is the number of convents, he himself having
stated to us the exact number--(hear)—and to know in
what relation they stand to the law, he having informed
us that they stand in no relation to the law at all—
(hear)—does seem to me a very melees sort of inquiry.
(Rear, hear.) Sir, with respect to the case itself, I can
only say that which T said last year, that I cannot be-
lieve that Catholic gentlemen in England, Ireland, or
Scotland would allow their dauhters to be ill-used in
these convents and not appeal to Parliament for an alte-
ration of the law. How is it that nonelbut Protestants
appear to care about the liberty and security of Catho-
lic ladies, and that their Catholic relatives should be
indifferent to it 2 (Hear.) It was an insult to Catholic
parents to suppose that they could be insensible to such
grievances and acquiesce in their going on. The hon.
member for Tavistock said that Catholics should submit
to the inquiry in order to do away with suspicion. But,
sir, to say that it is sufficient that persons should spread
suspicions through a country without any facts to sup-
port them, and then have a right to call upon the parties
against whom they have excited those suspicions, to
submit to inquiry in order to get rid of the suspicions,
this really does seem too much. Sir, the very appoint-
ment of a committee would be an admission that a prima
facie case is made out ; and Catholics cannot be expected
to admit this when nothing has been stated after the
circulation for two or three years of the most worthless
gossip. (Hear.) Sir, I cannot but think the house
ought not in common fairness to entertain this applica-
tion. The learned gentleman who brought the question
forward stated only two facts to support it : one was as
to Miss Knight's case. Sir, I read the account of that
case, and although the conduct of the superioress seems
to have been injudicious, and the result of the case was
painful, the lady herself did not desire to leave the con-
vent, and all the objection came from her. If, in staying
in conventual establishments, ladies are induced, not by
physical, but by conscientious bonds, then, it would be
idle to break open the doors of those institutions, and
say to them, " Nowiyou are at liberty—you may act in
contradiction to your vows ifyou please." These convents
are connected with the practice and spread of the Roman
Catholic religion, and if these inmates are told that
they may leave them at their pleasure, they will not use
the power or the liberty which it is your object to con-
fer. If you say to these nuns that inquiry must from
time to time be made into the mode in which their es-
tablishments are conducted ; and, still further, if you
tell them that those establishments can no longer be
suffered to exist--the result will be that you will compel
ladies who wish to devote themselves to a conventual
life, to go to Belgium, or to some other Catholic country
in order to crrry their wishes into effect, and to exercise
those duties of charity which make these ladies the
greatest ornaments of the religion they profess. (Hear.)
Well, if such be the state of the case—if there be nothing
to be required with respect to the question of their per-
sonal liberty---what good reason can be adduced for the
motion which the hon. and learned member has brought
forward this evening ? The hon, and learned gentleman
spoke of education in this country in connection with
conventual establishments, and, if I have understood
him rightly, he proposes that that system of education
should be suppressed altogether. Now to such a propo-
sal lam not prepared to give my concurrence. (Hear.)
I see no reason whatever why that system of educa-
tion should be put an end to. I believe that in many
instances it is productive of a great deal of good, and that
the virtue of charity is exercised in a high degree in
carrying it out. 'Under these circumstances I can by
no means consent to the enactment of any measure
which may have the effect of obviating the
beneficial results of which it is likely to be productive.
There is a third reason put forward to induce the house
to agree to this motion, and which refers to the property
held by persons who become nuns, and by whom that
property is transferred to the religious institutions of
which they become members. Well, that is a question
which, in my opinion, may very fairly become the sub-
ject of inquiry upon the part of this house, because on
that question I can perceive how the interests of the State
and of society may be in some degree involved. If these
convents are numerous, and go on increasing from year
to year, I can well understan that a large amount of
property may, become sunk in mortmain ; and that to
prevent a state of things so little to be desired, an altera-
tion in the present laws with respect to the disposal of
such property might be very fairly introduced. There
are measures affecting Roman Catholic property, by
which, according to our law relating to superstitious uses,
that which is a fair and legitimate use of Roman Catholic
property—the purposes of Roman Catholic worship—is
forbidden in a manner which I do not think is consistent
with that religious liberty which members of the Roman
Catholic persuasion ought to enjoy. In consenting,
therefore, to any alteration in the existing law in con-
nection with those matters, 1 should like to see that
part of the subject entered upon and treated in a fair
and candid spirit. Now, let me ask the house to con-
sider what, if it should comply with the present motion,
it is called upon to do. Those who support that motion
say they do not wish to press their views in such
a manner as that any superioress, or other lady who
may be the inmate of a convent, could take offence at
the mode in which they would be carried into effect.
"We wish," they say, " merely to have au inquiry, in
order that the truth with regard to conventual establish-
ments generally may be ascertained." But while that
is the feeling 'with which members of this house profess
themselves to be actuated, sentiments of a nature very
different prevail out of doors with reference to the sub-
ject of the present metier. (Hear, hear.) The public
will not be satisfied unless there is a full and complete
inquiry instituted into the mode of life of all the reli-
gious oommunities in every convent throughout the land,
and very probably nothing less than the total abolition
of those establishments would be in complete accordance
with their feelings. Let not the house imagine that
they can comply with those feelings by instituting an
inquiry which is not calculated to answer public ex-
pectation. But if the Roman Catholics have not been
well used in this particular, let us not give way to the
popular impression that the inmates of convents are
subjected to imprisonment. Let us look at Bavaria, and
see how the nuns are treated in that country. In
Bavaria they give protection to the Roman Catholic re-
ligion ; they give protection to all its institutions ; large
revenues
,are divided amongst its clergy by the State,
and it is, in short, there an established and recognised
faith. In this country our favour, our revenues, and our
protection are given altogether to the Established Church
of this realm, in England and in Ireland, and to the
Church of Scotland. In the case of the Roman Catholic
we allow civil equality ; the exercise of their religion ;
but in the way of protecting their institutions, or grant-
ing them revenues for the support of their Church, we
do nothirr, whatsoever. That state of things may con-
tinue, and for one do not desire that, with respect to
it, any alteration should be introduced. But you cannot
say, "We shall give to Protestantism all the favour
which we can afford to it, while to Roman Catholicism
we shall extend nothing but the penalties to which in
countries where it is the prevailing religion its members
• may be exposed." You must either, in my opinion, be
satisfied with the present state of things, or else you
must introduce changes of a nature far more extensive
than those which you now propose. For these reasons
I for one shall give a hearty and decided negative to the
motion of the hon. and learned gentleman the member
for Hertford. (Hear, hear.) •
Mr. WALPOLE observed, that the question con-
ta'aied in its terms matter of fact and matter of opinion.
Monastic institutions and convents stood upon a different
looting in the eye of the law : the former were prohi-
bited, thelatter were not forbidden. With respect to
monastic institutions, in 1829 provisions were made for
their gradual suppression and final extinction, that being
the object of the Roman Catholic Relief Act. The reason
given by the authors of the measure was, that precau-
tions should be taken against the
entrance into this
country of orders owing allegiance to a Power abroad,
and he doubted whether Parliament should not inquire
whether these institutions had not been abused.
If it be true, as he believed it to be, that these
institutions were not necessary for the exercise of
the Roman Catholic religion, that the members of
these orders delivered themselves up to the allegiance of
a foreign potentate, and that they made use of their
power to assail the Protestant institutions of this coun-
try, these facts furnished a ground for inquiry, with the
view, not of suppressing, but of controlling them.
'With regard to conventual establishments, he thought
that, in reference to personal liberty, and to the disposi-
tion and transmission of property, an inquiry was called
for, and that on the latter head there could hardly be
two opinions that some alteration of the law was neces-
sary Re therefore supported the motion, although he
pould wish that some restriction should be put up on the
inquiry, in order that it might not be
prosecuted unduly
Or iproperly, so as to annoy the feelings of any one.
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD, in reply to Mr. Walpole,
defended the monastic institutions in Ireland, and con-
tended that no facts had been adduced in respect to con-
ventualur.
NesxtawblDishinents as a basis for the motion.
member corn EGATE said, that the hon. and learned
ariTenced by appealing to the patriotism of
the house
tion. We' thisenutaled by threatening an Irish insurrec-
of which was roesel way to meet a proposition the object
this country on theY to place conventual institutions in
Mme footing on which they stood in
many continental
• be called upon to yieldaton: Doubtless, we should soon
:very demand of the Papacy
under the coercion of threatened rebellion in Ireland.
Mr. PALK begged for permission to say a few words
on account of the deep
believed thathis constituentsthe
question
took in the question, tich
might be investigated without necessarily arousing ill-
will or embittered polemical conctersosvaterc?
leLyse and he cer-
oeinvestigated.
tainly felt that the question ought
Catholict church
After all, it was not against the Roman
as against
that a measure of this sort was so requisi e
l in the
the covert foes to Protestantism which had
bosom of our own church. Conventual arisenad
were not limited to Roman Catholicism, for
to be found in the diocese of Exeter, that great fyoeweroe Tractarianism, and among people who still retainedusthef name—well nigh all they did retain—of Protestants.
These covert foes, far more than the open enemies to our
church, required to be vigorously resisted in every direc-
tion and in every mode.
Lord E. HOWARD much regretted that the lion.
member for Hertford, who seemed filled with morbid
apprehension on this particular subject should in the
fervour of his antagonism have indulged in langu'age
towards the Roman Catholics which so far transgressed
the bounds of propriety. The hon. member had made
outt a case as though the seventeen ladies, whom he
nitu isntroduced to the notice of the house as erro-
petitioners, were all nuns shut up in dire
ecdonvents, whereas several of them had been merely
settle
ucated in convents, and were now married and
d out the world. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
member, too
laumbere of females uite a misconception as to the
TT N in e eenveute ; any one would sup.