The Sun.
London, England, 1853-08-17 00:00:00

that when there was a question as to whether there should
b 3 a discussion in this house, I did not say, nor did my
noble friend near me say, that we refused any discussion,
and were not prepared to meet that discussion ; we
only said that we did not think it would be for the benefit
of the public service that any such discussion should take
place, and a great majority of the house, when the house
was more full than it is at present, fully concurred in the
opinion that, if the Government thought it was not so for the
public service, such discussion should not take place. If
anybody had then said that the course of the Government
should be interrupted, and that some adverse motion ought
to be made, I would 'have been ready to meet that motion,
and I certainly understood from the hon. member for
Aylesbury that he would rather wish to support the Go-
vernment. (Hear.) I cannot believe, if an attempt should
be made by Russia to invade Turkey, that the Christian
subjects of the Turkish Government would be indisposed
to assist them. I think the case would not be very diffe-
rent from that which is related in an anecdote of Charles
11., who, with his usual wit, on an occasion whenthe Duke
of York said he should take care of his life, and hoped he
would not go in so unguarded a manner about the streets
as he was in the habit of going, said, " I will tell you what,
brother ; I have this security, I do not think anybody will
kill me in order that you may succeed." (Laughter) In
the same way the Mahomedan yoke is not so hateful to the
Christian subjects of the Porte that they would be rejoiced
to have that power overthrown in order that they might
see a Russian power established in its place.
Mr. MINTZ would also relate an anecdote of Bing
Charles 11. When refusing a demand that had been made
by the Dutch ambassador, he said to him, " You would
not have dared to make such a proposal to Oliver Crom-
well." " Your Majesty," replied the ambassador, "is a
very different man from Oliver Cromwell." (Hear.) If
they had a different set of mon in the government of this
country in the present day the Russians would not have
marched into the Danubian provinces, and they had done so
because the Emperor of Russia entertained the opinion that
nothing would make this country go into a war. They had
prevented the manufacture of arms in this country which
were to be sent to Poland to assist in gaining the liberties
of a
.people who would be the real barriers against the ex-
tension of Russian power. They had permitted the inter-
ference of Russia in Hungary, and he considered that the
interference of a second party between the governed and
the governors was a great piece of injustice, and should
never have been allowed by any civilised people. (Hear.)
They were now reaping the fruits of their conduct; they
had allowed all the natural barriers of Russia to be de-
stroyed; and they had given an opportunity to the Emperor
of Russia of carrying out his intentions and taking posses-
sion of Turkey on the very first opportunity. (Hear, hear.)
Did her Majesty's Government believe that this business
was at an end? When the Russian troops were about
crossing the Prnth the Government of this country should
have said that if they crossed the Pruth it would be a case
of war, and thereby have prevented them from occupying
the Turkish provinces; but the Russian troops had not
only crossed the Pruth, but had occupied the provinces,
and they evidently had an intention to enter into perma-
nent occupation of the provinces. (Laughter.) They had
caused the humiliation of Turkey by inducing her to give
way, and the least they should have done was to say that,
before they made any terms with Russia, they should
evacuate those provinces. He was sure the people of this
country were very much disappointed at what had taken
place. Not only the members of the house, but the people
out of doors, were anxious on the subject. (Hear, hear.)
They felt that the honour of the country had been sullied,
and that all sense of honour was lost, because the country
was now governed by considerations of pounds, shillings,
and pence. If Oliver Cromwell were now governing this
country, would the Russians have entered those provinces?
What did he do in Italy and in France, when theytook mea-
sures against some of their own countrymen ? He inter-
fered without any considerations of expense, because it
was a question of honour with him, and not a question of
pounds, shillings, and pence. (Hoar, hear.)
Mr. BLACKETT would not leave himself open to the
censure of the noble lord at the head of the Government
by criticising late transactions, until they were placed be-
fore them in an authentic form, but at the same time he
thought that the noble lord, by steadily. refusing to take
Parliament and the people of England into his councils,
had increased greatly the responsibility that rested upon the
Government; and of course the future judgment of the
house must be severer than it would otherwise be if it
should turn out that, when Parliament reassembled, the
noble lord had been mistaken in his views or that he had
miscalculated his own position. There was one point that
he wished to press upon the house, and that had reference
to the occupation of the Danubian provinces. The noble
lord left them in no doubt upon the subject, because, from
his eloquent silence, they could not think they were wrong
in assuming that no mention of the evacuation of the prin-
cipalities was contained in the terms to which they were
told the Emperor of Russia had assented. The question as
to the evacuation of the principalities seemed to him to be
of far more importance than the terms of any treaty which
the Emperor of Russia and the Sultan might agree to. He
had never doubted that the ingenuity of diplomatists
would be able to contrive some document which either
party could sign without much humiliation ; but the ques-
tion of the continued occupation of the principalities was
more important, because it was more manifest to Europe,
and more decided in its pressure on the population. He
should be sorry to see Turkey signing any treaty of a hu-
miliating character, but the knowledge of that treaty
would be confined to a comparatively limited circle of per-
sons interested in diplomatic affairs, and many years might
elapse before either power was called upon to put that
treaty into execution, and they had the chapter of acci-
dents to trust to ; but the occupation of the principalities
by Russian troops was a fact that pressed itself upon the
attention of every peasant in Wallachia and Moldavia, and
was calculated to disorganise the entire Turkish system.
It would be out of the power of those principalities to
obtain any treaty that would enable them to avoid the in-
tolerable position of occupying the debateable ground be-
tween two hostile empires. The occupation of the pro-
vinces was calculated to extend the prestige of the Russian
empire, and was pregnant above all with the most fatal
consequences to the permanent peace of Europe. What was
the ground on which the permanent peace of Europe rested ?
It was not on the power of any single nation ; nor, as had
been foolishly represented, on the magnanimity of any sin-
gle sovereign ; nor on the wisdom or moderation of popu-
lar assemblies. The peace of Europe really rested upon
the general conviction that any power that was the first
to break it was sure to find the whole of Europe leagued
against it, and was sure to come off the loser. (Hear.) If they
would only cast their eyes over the map of Europe, they
would everywhere find that powerful states were, perhaps
naturally and excusably, inspired by a wish to increase
their resources and extend their territories ; and side by
side they found weak states offering, but for those barriers,
an easy prey to cupidity and ambition. (Hear, hear.) It
was nothing but a prudent and honourable apprehension
of drawing down upon themselves the reprobation and
chastisement of their allies. (Hear, hear.) It was that
feeling which had prevented France from intermeddling
with Belgium, Prussia from absorbing Saxony, and Aus-
tria from interfering with the Sardinian States, and which,
until within the last few months, kept Russia beyond the
Pruth ; and he was sure that those apprehensions would
still restrain Russia within proper limits if the Govern-
ments of England and France remained firm. (Hear, hear.)
If they wished to maintain those barriers, it was absolutely
necessary that the failure of the Emperor of Russia in his
present schemes should be as palpable and unquestionable
as his original pretensions were (in the words of Lord Lynd-
lfurst) audacious. The Government should not lose time
in devising terms to soothe his mortified spirit, but should
rather hold the case up as a warning from Europe to the
next malefactor who attempted to disturb the public peace.
(Hear, hear.) If that result were arrived at, lie should re-
joice that England and France had joined together to
achieve that great triumph. (Hear, hear.) He could not
conceive why the Government should deviate from its
straightforward course, or allow itself to be in the least
degree swayed by dynastic sympathies. (Hear.) By such
a policy they would sow the seeds of disorganisation ; they
would proclaim, in accents not difficult to understand,
that England was ready enough to threaten, but if she
were only pressed, she was sure to shrink from having re-
curse to arms. (Hear.)

Mr. COBDEN—I do not exactly see that there is any
difference of opinion on the question that is before us. I
find everybody is agreed that Russia has acted in a man-
ner that is treacherous, heedless, and violent. I find that
in and out of the house everybody entertains the opinion
that the most fortunate result of the late proceedings in the
East is that it has brought about a firm affiance, not only
between the people of England and France, but between
the Governments of England, and France, for I never can
cease to separate the people de facto from their Govern-
ments. Everybody wishes that Russia would evacuate
the principalities, and the noble lord has himself expressed
his conviction that this object will be attained; and I be-
lieve everybody in the house and out of it, would be will-
ing to wait a few months longer and have all those ques-
tions settled peaceably. I think that, even in Birmingham
itself, though muskets are manufactured there, the people,
if there was a meeting held in the Town-hall, would rather
support the noble lord in a pacific policy than precipitate
the country into a war to obtain the same objects a month
or two earlier. But though evidently there is a great ac-
quiescence of opinion amongst us all, there is still a great
deal of uneasiness on the subject of Turkey. Is not the
reason obvious, though we will not face it, and will rather
deal with the superficics of the matter than deal with the
interior of it. It is this—because there is a growing con-

viction in our minds that what has been hitherto a current
phrase, " the independence of the Turkish Empire," has
now become a mere empty phrase, and nothing more ;
because the fact is, that within the last twenty years there
has been a growing conviction in the minds of people that
the Turks in Europe are intruders—that it is not their do-
micile or their permanent home—that their home is in Asia,

that Mahomedanism cannot exist in Europe alongside of
civilised states. The progress of events has given an impetus
to that opinion, which is grounded on the conviction that you
cannot maintain Mahomedanism in Europe. Do what you
will that is your opinion—that is the embarrassment we
feel—that is the embarrassment of the Government in deal-
ing with the subject. In dealing with it, we are not in
earnest in the belief that we can preserve Mahomedanism
in Europe. (Hear.) I have no wish to see the Russians in
Constantinople, but I will not prevent them by our taking
our stand for the preservation of Mahomedanism in Europe.
If we or the Americans were the next neighbours of Tur-
key, judging by what they and we have done elsewhere, and,
what we have done with regard to half-a-dozen Mahome-
dan dynasties in India, we would have swallowed them
up long ago. (Hear.) There is another fact that has come
up, and that is the existence of a large Christian popula-
tion in Turkey in Europe. (Hear.) The fact is prominently
before us that the Christian element in Turkey in Europe
is now the prominent one, and we cannot ignore it, because
for every one Turk in Turkey in Europe there are three
Christians in Turkey in Europe. (Hear.). The great ma-
jority of the people in Turkey in Europe are Christians,
and the question is, what are the feelings of the Christian
population towards their Mahoinedan rulers. (Hoar.) I be-
lieve that the fueling amongst the Christian population in
the interior of Turkey is not favourable. I believe that in
the large cities, in Smyrna and in Constantinople, the
Christians enjoy a certain portion of protection, but if you
go into the interior of Turkey all the evidence goes to con-
firm me when I state that the Christian population in the
interior of Turkey, in the small towns and villages, have a
very hard ot indeed, and they are as much now under the
rale and violentl domination of an insolent caste and a bar-
barous people as ever they were. (Hear, hear.) At this
moment there is not a cacti, or pacha, or soldier that may
no
cominr, hear')
to a4d.
not oppress the poor peasant in the interior almost as badly
as they were
oppressed two or three hundred years ago.
(Hea
These are facts that you cannot ignore in
lord offered Z
et. the christrision on the question of what is the feeling
to the Russians.o population. (Hear, hear.) The noble
pinion that they would prefer the Turks
But I /Quist ea f (Hear, hear.) Well, that is possible.
or DaYlielf—hain. visited both coutriee