The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-06 00:00:00

make their returns to local parties, but ought to be allowed
to make them to spme central authority. His consti-
tuents, the small farmers of the -county of Cork, should not
teay"of him—a You have made use of your privilege of
,Par-
liament to protect your own purse from income tax, an
yon have saddled us for' 40 years with the consolidated
• annuities." He could meet them all now with a_clear
• conscience---(cheere)—and he should use his best exer-
tions to obtaiu the modifications proposed by the Irish
members relative to the imposition of the income tax.
The people of Ireland were shrewd and intelligent, and
- would be able to distinguish between figures of speech and
figures of arithmetic. Trying the question by the test of
' figures, there could be no doubt that the substitution of
• the income tax for the consolidated annuities was a good
bargain for Ireland. (Hear.) What he disliked in the
income tax was its inquisitorial character ; but he hoped
• the Government would be able to deprive it
not, the people of Ireland would join the people of England
`in agitating against it. It was in this view that te hon.
member, for Birmingham, who had always opposed the,
' approved of its extension to Ireland., for he said the Irish
-were such a troublesome set that they would soon compel"_a
'Parliament to repeal the tax altogether. (Hear, d
'laugh.) For his part, he was not disposed to give votet
which would restore the Six-mile-bridge Admimstra ion o
office. (hoar.)
Mr. DUFFY thought that the hon. member for Cloumel
intended to fight a sham battle on this occasion. (Hear.)
When the question was raised before in a manner likely to
command a majority, the hon. member voted against it.
(Hear.), The hon. member for the county of Cork would
not give a vote which he thought might have the effect of
'restoring the late Ministry to power, but he had no scruple
in supporting those who had at one time acquired the epi-
thet of "base, bloody, and brutal"—(hear, hear)—and who
had never shrunk from the imposition of coercion bills on
Ireland when such answered their purpose. (Hear, hear.)
Another reason given for not voting against the income tax
the other night was, that he would not go into the same
lobby with those who sympathised with the outrages at
Stockport, and who had defended the affair of Six-mile-
bridge ' • bid the hon. gentleman had no objection at all to
go into the same lobby with the author of the Ecclesiastical
Titles Bill and those who supported that measure. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. member for Cork had told them repeat-
edly that, there were members on that (the Opposition) side
of the house who had no interest in Ireland. Now, cer-
tainly there were a large number of members on that side
of the horse who had no interest in Downing-street. (Hear,
and a laugh.) Their career had been characterised, never-
theless, by consistency of conduct and by integrity in that
house. , (Hear, hear.) He . would now pass, however, to
the general question whether an income tax should or
should, not be imposed in " Ireland. He was entitled to
assume, that up to this time Ireland was considered by the
Goverment as having been properly exempted from in-
come tax, else why had it not been imposed? Then what
were the reasons for imposing it now ? So far as he could
gather, the reasons amounted to this—first, that England
never had so little need of taxation from Ireland, and that
Ireland could never so ill spare it. (A laugh.) That was
the first leg of the argument. The‘other was, that in 1842,
when Sir R. Peel proposed the income tax, Ireland was
Mach more prosperous than she was now, and that Eng-
land was less prosperous then than she was now. (A laugh.)
New England was richer than she had ever been before,
and Ireland presented a spectacle such as, he believed, the
world never presented before, her population leaving her in
multitudes because they could not find the means of acquir-
ing a livelihood. (Hear, hear.) In considering this pro-
posal for an income tax on Ireland he thought it was right
to look to some of the items of their expenditure that were
not sent to Ireland ; and the first he would mention was
the half-million raised for the purposes of the militia, not
one farthing of which would be expended in Ireland. He
thought it was a somewhat cool proceeding for Ministers
to ask the Irish people to pay an income tax which
would go to the maintenance of militia that they would
net extend to Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Another item of
expenditure- to which he would refer was the packet
service. Government after Government had declared that
Ireland should not have an American packet station, but
nevertheless they asked that part of the money for the
packet service should be paid by Ireland. (Hear, hear.) It
was said that in opposing this income tax they forgot the
increased comforts conferred upon the people. There was
a reduction in the duty on nuts and anchovies, on brocade
and artificial flowers, and things of that sort, and then they
were told of the comforts of the poor being increased. (A
laugh.) His main objection to the proposal was, that it
would be most oppressive to the industrious poor of Ire-
land. (Hear, hear.) The budget was conceived in a spirit
directly in favour of England. (No, no.) The declaration
of-Mx. Pitt, 80 years ago, was as true now as then, when
he said, " The uniform policy of England has been to de-
prive Ireland of the use of her own resources, and to make
her subservient to the interests and the opulence of the
English people." (Hear, hear.) That was exactly what
they were driving at at this moment. Many of the Irish
members had voted most unwillingly against the Govern-
ment on this occasion. For himself, he could say that his
vote was not a party vote. He was not desirous to see the
late Government again in power, but, at the same time, he
must say, that to him, and a very numerous party in Ire-
land, the going out of any Government was a very inferior
question ; and the mere circumstance of any man's holding
office or not would not for a moment prevent him voting
against a measure like the present. (Hear, hear.) He had
no doubt that some few Irish members had voted in favour
of that measure from conscientious grounds. (Hear, and
Oh, oh !) But, proceeded the hon. member, short as my
experience in this house has been, I must say I do not be-
lieve that in the worst days of the Walpoles or the Pelhams
more scandalous corruption existed than I have seen prac-
tised under my own eye in corrupting Irish members.
(Confusion, and loud cries of " Name, name !") am in
the hands of the house. (Continued cries of " Name,
name !" and " No, no !") I will proceed to another art
of the question. (No, no ! Name, name ! and uproar.)p If
the chairman tells me, on behalf of the house, that it is
their wish I should name, I shall do so. (Laughter, cries
of " No, no !" and " Name, name I")
Mr. V. SCULLY rose, amid great uproar, and was
understood to complain of the charge that had been made ;
but amid the noise and confusion he could not be beard in
the gallery.
Mr. J. BALL (Carlow) rose, and with considerable vehe-
mence said —I move that the words of the hon. member
for New Ross be taken down. (Great laughter, and re-
newed confusion.)
Mr. DUFF Y again rose, but the calls of " Name, name,"
were so loud and incessant, that he was unable to proceed.
The CHAIRMAN—I believe the motion is, that the
words of the hon. member for New Ross be takon down.
"What are the words? (Great laughter.)
Mr. J. BALL—I believe I was strictly in order in ma-
king the motion that the words—(interruption)—that the
words, which are fresh in the recollection of every member
near me, should be taken down. ("No, no," and uproar.)
I apprehend that it is the duty of the clerk of the house to
take down the words. (" No, no," and confusion.)
Mr. G. H. MOORE rose, but from the noise, uproar,
and calls of " Chair," not a word he uttered reached the
gallery.
The CHAIRMAN—I apprehend that I can take no
course in committee with reference to any language that
may have been used by the hon. member. It is for the
house to say what shall be done. It will therefore be ray
duty, if the words are taken' down, to report them to the
house. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. G. MOORE and Mr. J. BALL here rose together, and
both seemed to speak, but from the cries of " Chair,"
" Duffy," and the extraordinary noises which prevailed,
they were allowed to gesticulate in dumb show. At
length
Mr. MOORE was heard to state, that during the debate
on the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill a similar motion to the pre-
sent was proposed, and the Speaker then decided that no
such motion could be made. (Cheers and counter-cheers.)
Mr. F. SC U LLY (amid cries of " Oh, oh," and much
confusion) said—l must correct that statement. On the
occasion referred to the Speaker declared that the motion
would have been in order if it had been made at the time
the words were used. " (Hear, hoar.)
Mr. J. BALL—If the hon. member for New Ross (Mr.
Dufly) declines to repeat the words I will not press my
motion for taking them down ; but the words used were
these :—" The grossest corruption ever practised since the
days of the Walpoles and the Pelhams has been practised
under my own eyes upon Irish membere of this house.
(Hear, hear.)
The hon. member having written down the above words
on a slip of paper, handed them to the chairman of the,
committee (Mr. BOuverie), by whom they were read from
the chair.
Sir D. NORREYS—Nothing is more distressing than
such occurrences as the present, and I appeal to the hon.
member for New Ross to withdraw the expressions. (Hear, I
hear.) The hon. gentleman is a young member, and pro-
bably has not the honour of the house and of Irish mem-
bers so much at heart as I have. (Laughter, and cries of
hear.) I pray him at once to withdraw the words ; and I
put myself forward to make this appeal, as I am as clear as
any one from the imputation those words convey.
The CHAIRMAN, having again read the words written
down by the hon. member for Carlow (Mr. J. Ball), in-
quired, before putting the question that they be taken
clown by the clerk, whether the hon. member for New
Ross impeached their accuracy ?
Mr. DUFFY—The words read are so near to those I
used that I do not take any exception to them. (Cheers,
laughter, and considerable confusion.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—I beg to recal the recollection of
the hOuse *to the circumstances in which the hon. gentle-
man used the words complained of, and the manner in
which -he followed them up. (Hear.) The words as written
clown appear to me, and I believe to the hon. member him-
self, as nearly as possible the same as he used. He was
immediately, on this side of the house, met with loud cries
of " Name, name." (Hear, hear.) Now, it appears to me
that if the hon. gentleman meant to make a vague asser-
tion which he had not the least means of proving—(hear,
hear)---he might be justified in passing on to other matter;
but if, on, the contrary, he meant to make an assertion
affecting the integrity and honour of Irish members, he
ought to name the members charged with this gross cor-
ruption, which; he says, is unparalleled since the clays of
the Walpoles and the Pelhams. (Cheers.) Instead of that,'
however, he took the first and the immediate opportunity
of saying, " Now I will pass to another part of the sub-
ject.' ("Heal'," cries of "No," and cheers.) If I am
wrong in this statement the hon. gentleman will con-
tradict me ; but I understood him to say, immediately
after there was a cry of " Name," that if the chairman, by
the desire of the committee, called on him to name, he
would do so. 'But, of course, it was not in the power of
the chairman to do that, and then the hon. gentleman im-
.
mediately said he was go, ing to pass to another part, of the
subject. Such being the case, it appears to me that the
committee in general, and the Irish members in particular,
may consider those words as general words used in debate,
which the .hon.
(cheers)— t forward is
totally unable to prove—
Aigmaon IriZ meimberndwitrhthe purpose of affixing a
deserve—(re-
newed cheers)—end that he is theyutt do not
single word of what he had u. ree(rl y unable to prove any
however, the hon. gentleman,toten -tll. (Loud cheers.) If,
e other hand, is ready,
with the Speaker in the chair, to proceed to charge Irish
members individually with that corruptionwith which he
has charged them generally, theml should not refuse my
vote in favour of the words being taken down by the
clerk. But, as matters now stand, unless the hon. by the
man goes on to take that step, I consider it ssotellaltt
better for the committee to treat those words with the cone-
tempt they deserve. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. UTCAS—I apprehend that, when words of this
kind are used, if they are ever rthed—(laughter)—it is quite
inos ible that, if the hon. gontlenian chooses to go iuto the
proofs of:them, he might prove - to the general satisfaction
of every gentleman a great deal
,t,hat might be unpleasant
to state , or repeat. (Cries of Oh, oh !") But I must
say I understood the words of my hon. friend differently
from what they luave been described. ("No ! laughter his
cries d understood him to say, (what his
-alcrieeesreooef in" eallninearg• have been lies in his own breast)—l
understood him to say that the grossest corruption had
been practised towards the Ins members. (" No, no!"
and laughter). I appeal whether that is not the promo

form of the sentence used by the hon. member, and I -con-
ceive that when the house is asked to adopt a strict pro-
ceeding of this kind, they must take the exact words used,
and not put any gloss upon them. (Hear, hear.) The
words, as I understood them, constituted an accusation
against the Government—(laughter)—and might or might
not imply an imputation on Irish members. (" Oh, oh !")
The words were, that the grossest corruption had been
practised towards Irish members. (Vehement cries of
" Name !" during which the hon, gentleman received from
another hon. member a copy of the words placed in the
hands of the chairman.) The hon. member then read the
form of words which had been handed to the chairman by
the lon. member for Carlow—" That the grossest corrup-
tion ever practised since the days of the Walpoles and the
Pelhams has been practised under my own eyes upon Irish
members of this house ;'' and proceeded :—By whom, then,
has this corruption been practised? Not by the Irish mem-
bers on the Government ' • no one pretends that Irish mem-
bers have corrupted the Government—(laughter)—or that
any bribery had proceeded from any of the hon. gentlemen
opposite to the occupiers of the Treasury bench ; but a
comparison has been drawn between the right hon. gentle-
men opposite and the Walpoles and the Pelhams of an
earlier generation, and it was asserted that the grossest
corruption has been practised by them. (" Name, name!"
cries of " Order," and cheers.) If, therefore, those right
hon. gentlemen, out of a regard for their own dignity and
character, think it necessary to have those words taken
down, and require some ulterior proceeding to be taken,
that is all very well; but at all events let it be understood
that the accusation was made against them. (Hear, and
cries of "Oh !") It is only in this sense that any complaint
of the kind can be entertained. (Hear.) If the words are
taken down, let them be taken down accurately, and I am
sure the house will not strain the imputation a hair's
breadth beyond what was conveyed.
Dr. PHILLIMORE—I think the words were written
down most accurately by the hon. member for Carlow—
(hear)—and it corncerns the honour of this house to know
what member of the Government has practised gross cor-
ruption under the eyes of the hon. member for New Ross
upon any Irish member, with a view to influence his vote.
(Cheers.)
Mr. OTWAY—The hon member for Meath (Mr. Lucas)
has-given a wrong explanation of the words now complain-
ed of. The house should recollect what preceded the words
in question. The hon member for New Ross said that
some few Irish members had acted conscientiously, and
then several of my hon. friends near me cried out with in.
dignation—" Some few, indeed !" The hon. member for
New. Ross then went on to make the accusation of gross
corruption which, he said, had been practised upon Irish
members under his own eyes. (Hear.)
Mr. E. BALL (Cambridgeshire), amid considerable up-
roar, expressed his conviction that the hon, member for
Meath (Mr. Lucas) had given the correct interpretation of
the words used. It was a parallel between the Walpoles
and. Pelhams of a former period and the present Govern-
ment, and unless the charge were understood as brought
against the Government there would be no application in
the words.
The CHAIRMAN understood that he was to put the
question that the words suggested by the hon. member for
Carlow (Mr. J. Ball) as having been used by the hon. mem-
ber for New Ross—(cries of " They are admitted")—should
be taken down by the clerk, and, if that motion were
agreed to, the proper course, in the next place, would bo
to report them to the house. Before putting the question,
he must express his decided opinion that the language was
disorderly—(hear)—the general rule being that no expres-
sions imputing improper motives should be used in debate.
(Hear, hear.) He then put the question that the words be
taken down by the clerk.
- • •

Mr. DISRAELI—I understand the chairman to say that
he considers the words disorderly because they impute
corrupt motives. It appears to me that there is some doubt
about the words. (" No, no," and cries of " They are ad-
initted.") I do not find any imputation of corrupt motives
in them. (Cries of "Oh, oh,' and "Order.") I regret
that there should be such a tone of levity in the house upon
this subject. I say that I find no imputation of corrupt
motives, but a distinct imputation of corrupt conduct.
(" Oh, oh," and laughter.) Nothing is more clear than
this—that an allegation of corrupt conduct, especially if
such conduct is alleged against a Ministry, is not disorderly
in the House of Commons. Such an allegation is not dis-
orderly, for it is the first and paramount duty of a member
of this house, if such corruption exists, to denounce it.
(Hear.) Therefore we must not declare that a member has
been guilty of disorderly conduct because he has accused a
Minister of corrupt conduct. (Hear, hear.) B 7 so doing
we should be depriving ourselves of one of the highest pri-
vileges of our position. (Hear.) I think it is evident, from
this consideration, how important ilia that we should have
a clear admission of what were the precise words used.
If those words impute corrupt motives to an individual,
whether a Minister or not, I believe them to be disorderly ;
but if a distinct accusation has been made against the
Ministry by a member in his place that they have acted
corruptly, that member is not guilty of disorderly conduct,
but has been acting upon his right—(cheers)—and if he
can substantiate his charge, he is exercising the highest
duty he can exercise as a member of this house. (Hear,
hear.) I beg therefore that the committee will be most
careful as to their proceedings in this matter.
Lord PALMERSTON—I am ready to admit, as has
been stated by the right !hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli),
that it is competent for any member of this house to im-
peach the conduct of her Majesty's Government, if it
should appear to him that he has ground to maintain his
accusations—(hear, hear)—and, as far as the charge of the
hon. member for New Ross (Mr. Duffy) against her Ma-
jesty s Government goes, I challenge him to the proof.
(Loud cheering from the Ministerial side.) I want no
taking davin of the words, and reporting them to the
Speaker. As far, however, as the charge goes against the
Irish members of this house the matter stands upon a
different footing. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member has
made a charge, which, whatever may be the particular
words which he used, implies necessarily an imputation
upon the honour and conduct of his Irish colleagues.
(Hear, and cheers.) Now, we all know that men are fre-
quently led away in the course of argument to make asser-
tions which, in their cooler moments, they would feel that
they had no good ground for making. The hon. member
for New Ross is a young member in this house—(hear,
hear)—and he will excuse me if, having been here longer
than himself—(a laugh)—l venture to suggest to him a line
of conduct which I think will redound to his credit. I
will*put it to the hon. member whether he would not cut
short the difficulty in which he is likely to involve us by
saying that which I am persuaded must be passing in his
inmost mind—namely, that he regrets that, in the warmth
of debate, he cast reflections upon hon. members which he
has no good grounds for maintaining, and which he would
not deliberately put forth. (Hear, and cheers.) Nothing
would be more creditable to the hon. member than the ad-
mission that he had not intended to use words imputing
dishonourable conduct to honourable men—(hear)—and I
would humbly venture to suggest to him, that it would
consist better with what is due to himself, as well as with
what is due to the representatives of this country, if he
were fairly, handsomely, and candidly to say, that he
did not mean deliberately and seriously to impute any dis-
honourable conduct to any members. (Hear, hear, and
cheers.)
Mr. LUCAS rose amid loud shouts for " Duffy," and
repeated cries of " Spoke, spoke," which prevented him
from proceeding for some moments. When the tumult had
subsided, the hon. gentleman said—l believe lam per-
fectly in order—and I rise merely to protest against its be-
ingytaken for granted, as the noble lord seems to do, that
those words which are taken down, and which have a most
distinct meaning, have the meaning which he attributes to
them. (Cries of "Oh !" and laughter.) I do maintain
that there is no meaning of that End in those words.
(Renewed cries of "Oh !") The words that have been
taken down contain an imputation against the Ministers,
but do not necessarily imply any imputation upon Irish
members. (Laughter, cries of "Oh !" and renewed calls
for " Duffy.") say they do not necessarily imply any
imputation whatever upon the honour and character of
the Irish members. (" Oh !" and laughter.) If I ven-
tured to offer the bon. member for New Ross any advice,
it would be to stand upon his right and on the words which
he has used—to take the words as they stand, and leave
the Ileum if it pleases to do so, but as I believe it never
will, to determine that these words have a sense which I
am persuaded no rational man could deduce from them—
namrly, that they contain an imputation upon any person
except her Majesty's Ministers. (Shouts of "Oh !" and
laughter.)
Sir G. GREY—If those words, which have been made
the subject of complaint, do not bear the meaning which
has been affixed to them, it would certainly be most satis-
factory to the house to hear that such is the case from the
hon. member by whom they were used. (Hear, and
cheers.) It seems to me that we have engaged in a very
fruitless discussion as to the accuracy of the words. The
chairman, as I think, with great propriety, before he put
the question that the words should be taken down, ap-
pealed to the hon. member for New Ross to know whether
they, had been handed to him, and I understood the hon.
gentleman (Mr. Duffy) to admit their substantial accuracy.
(Cheers.)' Then, after the hon. gentleman has made this
admission, and when the committee is proceeding to dis-
cuss whether, the accuracy of the words having been ad-
mitted, they should be taken down, the hon. member for
Meath (Mr. Lucas) attempts to deny the accuracy of the
words which have been read. (Laughter and cheers.)
Mr. LUCAS—I beg the right hon. gentleman's pardon.
I did not deny—(loud and prolonged shouts of " Oh !
oh r)—l did not deny the accuracy of the words. (Re-
newed cries of "Oh !" and much confusion.) I really
think I have some right to appeal to the courtesy of gen-
tlemen opposite. lam repeating what I have said before.
I read the words from this paper, and my whole argument
was founded upon those words being accurate. They are—
" The grossest corruption since the time of the Walpoles
and the Pelhams has been practised under my own eyes
upon' the Irish members in this house." I assumed the
accuracy of those words, and my argument was based upon
their, accuracy.
Sir G. GREY—I certainly understood the hon. member
for Meath to deny the accuracy of the words (hear, hear),
and to deny that the hon. member for New Ross had stated
that,lunder his own eyes, the grossest corruption had been
practised. It is -true that afterwards, admitting. the sub-
.stantal accuracy of the words, the hon. member for Meath
denied that a direct construction had been put upon them,
but the hon. member for New Ross, who was sitting by
him, did not attempt to confirm that view. I had hoped
that, in answer to the appeal made to him by the noble
lord (Lord Palmerston), the hon. member for New Ross
would have admitted that a wrong construction had been
placed upon the words, and would have relieved the com-
, mittee from the painful position in which we are now
placed, by at once denying that he intended to cast, either
upon the Government or upon Irish members, without be-
ing able to prove it, an imputation equally disgraceful
either to the Government or, to Irish members. (Hear,
hear.) I hope that if the hon. member for New Ross does
not retract these words, he will explain the sense in which
he used themoir will proceed to give substantial proofs of
the charges he has brought both against the Irish members
and the Government. (Hear.)
Mr) H. HERBERT—As an Irish member, who has lis-
tened ito this most painful discussion, I venture to remind
the committee of the advice which has been given by the
. noble lord who leads this house. That advice was to treat
the imputation made by an hon. member who did not dare
to come forward either to prove his charge or to name the
parties against whom that charge was made, with the con-
temptl which it deserved. (" Hear," and cheers.) As an
Irish member, and as one of those who must, therefore, of
necessity be included in the charge made by the hon. mem-
ber for i,,Tew Ross, I for one am perfectly ready to take the
advicei of the noble lord—(hear)—more especially as since
that excellent advice was given the Home Secretary has
made An appeal to the member for New Ross, which I
think ),he house will understand me when I say would have
been responded to by anybody deserving the name of—but
hesiWe to add the word. (Loud cheers, and laughter.)
miMr. IDIJITY then rose ~4(1 said—l should have hoped,
f assailed as I have been here—(derisive cheers,
4.• 'r4uYerie, that under the circumstances in which I
an:l.'ler% from the Ministerial benebes)—and
called Open to give an answer under circumstances which I
presunie are considered serious, I should have hoped that
I th t
from such pC9eauvo
I should have been protected f
• Im laud age

1'
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