The Sun.
London, England, 1838-05-15 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDA V, MAX.IS, 1838

such a manner as both to entitle them to every favourable consideration,
and to give room for those who objected to them, to propose an'. amend-
ments which they could lay before the House, to induce the House to
modify or alter that measure. I am compelled to take a different
course. It has pleased those who are opposed to as to say they will not
permit us to go into this measure, and they will not permit that Mem-
ber of the Government who is entitled to make the proposition to ex-
plain what that proposition is, but that they will interpose an-
other question, and that they will raise a debate, and pro-
duce a division upon that question before they will allow these
resolutions to be considered in Committee. I am, therefore, ready to
meet that course in the way in which I think it should be met. lam
ready to state no, the general purport and intent of the resolutions, be-
cause I think it would not be fair to the House or fair to ourselves,
that theyshould enter into a consideration of that question without these
resolutions having been explained to the House, and with regard to the
proposition which is to be made by the Honourable Baronet the Mem-
ber for North Devon, instigated, no doubt, by his diocesan.—(Laughter.)
After I have explained the nature of these resolutions I shall then con.
eider the motion which is to be brought forward, in order to raise discord
amongst us—(Cheers)—to produce bitterness, and to prevent a dis-
passionate settlement of the question, of tithes in Ireland.—(Loud
cheers.) Sir, I shall then consider how far it is conformable or
consistent with the professions of those who hold the opinions
professed by the Gentlemen opposite.—(Cheers.) Sir, I shall therefore
proceed to detail the provisions of the resolutions which I shall have
the honour to propose. Upon this occasion, Sir, I think it necessary to
notice some opinions of mine with respect to the Church of Ireland, be-
cause those opinions have been alluded to both here and elsewhere, in a
manner which showed that they bad either been misunderstood or wil-
fully misrepresented. Sir, the condition of the Church of Ireland I
must ever consider a very peculiar one, and that that
peculiarity must influence any legislation which takes place upon that
subject. Sir, I must consider the mode in which the Established
Church in this country stands. It stands upon a ground to which
I have ever yielded my willing consent ; but at the same time I
must place in juxtaposition the present condition of that Establishment
in Ireland. Sir, among those who have written upon this subject,
although his theory is of itself a fanciful one, still I con,
cider that the best writing on the subject is to be found in
the Treatise of Warburton on the alliance between Church
and State. He said that a benefit was conferred upon
both parties, and foremost amongst those advantages he places
the endowment of the clergy, and that certa.n clergymen should
form a part of the supreme Legislature of the Empire. On
the other hand, heeetates that the State derived from the Church
this great advantage, that it is a subsidiary force—a subsidiary power
that gives a sanction to morality and enforces the precepts of re-
ligion, and that induces the great mass of the people to
subdue those passions, which it is the business of the Civil Magistrate
to punish. If we compare this system with the condition of the Church
of Ireland, we must see that while there is every condition required by the
State complied with by the State, on the other side the Church of Ireland
is unable to comply with the other parts of the provision—it cannot enforce
among the people of Ireland those doctrines of morality and precepts of
religion, because the great majority of the people of Ireland, are unwil-
ling to receive them from such hands. I will state however the utility of
the Church, not upon any abstract authority or less moral doctrine. I will
state words represented to have been delivered by the Archbishop of
Canterbury, the Primate of the Church of England, a few weeks ago.
I have found these words stets d by him, and as I quote them, and state
my concurrence with them, it must be supposed that I entirely
adopt them. He says—" What were Churches instituted for, except
the good of the people, except for the spiritual welfare and advantage
of the great body of the people? The State is instituted for the same pur-
pose, and those two things could not be separated. The extension of mo.
rality—the diminution of vice, and the suppression of crime, must always
stand upon the basis of religion." That being the ground upon which so
high an authority states that a Church is established connected with the
State, I say again, however applicable that description can be to England,
it can hardly be applied to Ireland, where the ministers of religion, how-
ever well inclined to inculcate the suppression of crime, and the
diminution of vice, there is that difference of religious faith between
them and the great body of the people as will make the inculca-
tion of such doctrine from their hands totally useless, and in
some cases impossible. I may give some examples, though
often quoted, for the purpose of showing how little the clergy of the
Church of Ireland will have this influence over the great body of the
people. It appears by the last census that the population of that country
is upwards of eight millions, of which six millions and a half are Ro-
man Catholiss, six hundred and fifty thousand Presbyterian, and eight
hundred and fifty-two thousand members ofthe Established Church. The
greater part of the members of the Establishment were in one of the
four ecclesiastical provinces of Ireland. In the province of Armagh
there was more than 500,000 members of the Established Church,
and that in the dioceses of Cashel and Derry, where the Roman Ca.
tholics numbered 3,408,000, the number of Protestants altogether were
but 150,470. In Cashel the Roman Catholics were 95 per cent. of
the whole population. In the diocese of Derry, containing a population
of 98,000, the members of the Established Church are but 11,e per cent.
of the whole population ; yet they are not without endowments. But
it appeared likewise, Sir, that there were 41 benefices without a
single Protestant, and 99 with from 1 to 20. There were other
benefices in which there is a very small number of Protestants—
a very small number of members of the Established Church—and
a very large number of Roman Catholics. I say, then, give to the
Ministers of the Established Church any benefit you pleases—give them,
the credit of the utmost attention to their duties, although in many of
these cases there is neither glebe house nor church—and that must be in the
r way of their usefulness. Yet Ido say the condition of Ireland furnishes a sin.
gular example of an Established Church, namely, an example of a church
in three parts out of four of which the members of the Established Church
are in a very small minority, and that the lessons given by those minis-
ters cannot reach the hearts or influence the conduct of the great
body of the people. Sir, I have partly made this statement, because
when I have declared more than once in this House my determination,
in any vote that I should give, to support the Established Church of
Ireland, I have been taunted with not placing that support on the
ground of the advantages to be gained in religion by the Church
Establishment. It does appear to ma that if we were to consider
solely and only the advantages of religion, it might be a very doubtful
question how far the present Establishment, in its present form, can
conduce to the promotion of that religion. But, Sir, there are other
grounds upon which, as I think, it is our duty to support that Este-
blishment.—(Heare In the first place, it is not the case which has
been often put by those who are total?), hostile to the Church, namely,
the case of Scotland, in which upon the revolution you at once gave up
your Established Church—you converted that Establishment into
one more in accordance with the general feelings of the
people—and by that means produced peace and concord in Scotland.
Sir, in Scotland, not only were the great body of the people of the Pres-
byterian persuasion, but there was not that difference between them
and any great proportion of the classes holding property, and having
instruction anti education, which should prevent their harmonious
agreement with the Presbyterian form of worship.—(Continued
cries of " Hear, hear.") But, in Ireland, not only is there
a vast proportion of the property, but also a vast proportion of the
learned professions and others, whose importance cannot be denied, who
are attached to the Protestant Church, and by whom anything that
could be considered as at all tending to overturn the Established
Church, must be looked upon as placing them in a state of political
inferiority to the rest of their fellow-countrymen.—(Hear, hear.) And
beyond this, we have to consider that the fundamental principles, by
which the Irish Protestant Church is connected with the Established
Church of England.—(Hear, hear.) From this consideration,
Sir, I come to the conclusion, that anomalous as the condition of the
Irish Church is, and differing as it does from every other Established
;Church, recorded in history, or at present existing in the world—
e (Ministerial cheers)—any measure which would involve the destruc-
t tion of that Church, would involve an entire breach of the Act of
eUnion, by which the integrity of the empire would be en-
klangered.—(Tory cheers, and hear, hear.) That Act having passed
,and having been many years the law of the land,
it would be such a rent in the whole Ecclesiastical Constitution of these
aealms to separate the two countries, that I think the Established
;Church of England would suffer deeply by any such measure.—
;(Great Tory cheering.) But, Sir, when I say this, lam obliged again
to look to the condition of the Church, with a view to the
welfare of the people of Ireland. I may say, Sir, to the people of Ire-
land :—" It is for your advantage—it is for the advantage of Ireland,
that the ' principles of the Union should be maintained, and
that you should continue to form part of the United Kingdo
.- 1
—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Your general advantage would greatl
counterbalance the particular hardship you may complain of in the instil-
tutions of your country." 13ut I cannot expect that this will be entirely
satisfactory to the people of Ireland. It was for that reason that I have
earnestly, steadily, and at all times, endeavoured, by some means or other,
to conciliate Irish interests,and to involve Irish affections in objects con-
nected with the Established Church, for the sake of its additional security.
It was for this reason that the resolutions which the Hon. Baronet is
about to impugn to-night seem to me, while they were cal.
culated to award some satisfaction to the people of Ireland, to show that
at least there was one part of the endowment of that Church which
should be given for the general welfare and benefit of all classes of the
community, without distinction of sect or persuasion.—(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") But measures founded upon that resolution have
never met with the concurrence of Parliament, although they met
with the concurrence of this House. I am now to explain the
measure which I think may in a great degree tend to satisfy the people of
Ireland, while on the other hand it affords to the Church complete secu-
rity. In stating this measure, I will state at first that it is totally
different from the representations which have been made of it in
resolutions and in decisions which have been come to by various
bodies. Many have taken a totally erroneous view of its provi.
sions, and founded their objections on matters which really did not
belong to the resolution. With regard to the first part of this mea-
sure I do not wish to say anything, because it has been frequently before
the House, and, as I think, has in principle never met with any oppo-
sition. It is that part which goes to change the present tithe composi-
tion into a rent-charge, with a certain amount of deduction.
With regard to the amount of deduction—with regard to the
pinciple, I know not whether there be any difference. The next reselu.
Lion I have to propose contemplates, on the expiration of existing inte-
rests, the conversion of that rent charge by redemption into a capital
which is to be laid out on lands on rent charges, or on such funds as the ec.
clesiastical Commissioners think best adapted to secure Its investment. The
propositions that have been made on this subject by persons sitting
on the opposite side of the House' have been accompanied by other
propositions, which, on mature consideration, we could net recom.
mend to the House. The Noble Lord opposite (Stanley),
in 1832, preposed that there should be a redemption of the rent charge
or tithe composition at 80 years' purchase—he then said that the
Clergy, who had had a tithe composition, would be able to buy
land at eighteen years' purchase—thus supposing they would gait/
five- and-a-half per cent., by laying out this capital on land. This is an
assumption in which lam prepared to agree. The Honourable
Member for Launceston, in 1835, proposed another mode of
redemption. He proposed that the tithe composition should be
reduced to seventy-flve per cent., and twenty years' purchase given.
He proposed not that the deficiency should be made up from the pur-
chase of land, but that the Perpetuity Fund of the Church Temporali-
ties should be applied to make up the income of the Clergy. Now, Sir,
with regard to that proposition likewise it is out of my power to go along
with him, because the whole of these funds, so far from showing a
surplus; they constantly show a deficiency; and it would be a mere
delusion upon the Clergy to consider it at all. Well, then, Sir, with re-
gard to the state of the Clergy, while I propose a reduction I have to
encounter the objection which those who have preceded me in this pro.
position endeavoured to obviate, but, in my opinion, not successfully—
in my opinion, there would be a great diminution, which it was
impossible for us to calculate. I cannot see but that the clergy-
men having a sixteen years' purchase would be considerable
losers, and therefore I, for one, would not force it upon them.
I will therefore propose that the life-interest should be strictly preserved.
Bat if I say that those existing interests shall be preserved by the
clergyman continuing to receive the tithe composition, I am con-
tinuing for a long period the contentions and collisions between the
clergy and the people which unhappily have already too often
taken place.—(Hear, hear.) I propose, therefore, that while there
jp a seenrity for the future in the redemption of the Tithe, there will be
a security tn the e/eentet !Dr 79 VT cent, by making the State the ern_
ranee for that sum. So far lif Or ' h P
':-'ll4,Ph is cenpernee, there can he no
reasonable objection to this plan. I propose to reduce the income; but I
reduce it less than the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir H. Hardinge).
Where he proposed to giVf! 1,§04
I gillf J,6001.; end I give the security
of the State. Therefore, Sir, I think no objection can be made to
this proposition, either on the ground of pressing hard upon
the Clergyman, or reducing him entirely, or of malting hill)
a stipendiary on the State and depriving him of the semi:-
rity of his endowment. It Is for this reason, therefore, that
I think that many el these petitions, and among others that of
the clergy of Limerick, are founded upon a total misapprehen-
sion of the resolutions. They are afraid that they are to be
made dependent upon an annual vote of this House; but
that will not 1..),v the case, fpf they would be secured 'by al)

! Act of Parliament, and without another Act of Parliament that irvorne
could not be afticted. If they considered Cat it was exposed to any
danger, or frosts any spoliation be the State, I provi•le even fel' that—
for I p:ovide that the clergyman may claim redemption.—(Hear,
hear.) So much for the details of the plan, as it affects the clergy. I
come now to that part of it Which affects both the Church and the people.
Sir, I cannot think that the body of the clergy of 'relabel are inimical
to the feelings of the peoiiie--that they are careless of the sufferings of
the people. The people have irnb bed, and I cannot say unnaturally—they
have imbibed from their teachers to resist the payment of !Plies,
and were it not that circumstances have been favourable of late to the
general maintenance of tranquillity, we should have seen a continuance
of aggravation of those conflicts in which the tithe-pay ers determined to
resist the law, met in vast numbers, came into conflict with the
military and with the police, and extended that resistance even till
bloodshed was caused. Now, Sir, in what manner does this plan propose
to remedy that evil ? It proposes to remedy it in this way—that in future
that which shall be asked of the occupier, that which shall be asked,
aye, even of the person having the first estate of inheritance, does not
immediately or necessarily go to the Church ; that the motive
when the clergyman is secured, first by the payment of the State
and afterwards by the possession of property, their's will be similar
to any other property—the motive is taken away to resist the
payment of the rent charge, because that resistance is no proof of the
principle, and the withholding of that payment would not its the
result affect the income of the Clergy.—(Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.") It is, therefore, proposed by one of the subsequent
resolutions, that the payments to be made out of those rent charges
should not be payments merely out of the Consolidated Fund, but it
is proposed that they should be in a great measure payments con-
nected with the Civil Government of Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) If
there are payments connected with the Civil Government of
Ireland it can hardly be expected—no rational man can expect that
to far as the physical resistance is concerned—so far as those
dreadful scenes of bloodshed and of massacre are concerned—
I say no rational man can possibly expect that the payments
will be resisted. I will state a few of the paynients it is proposed should
be made. It is proposed that the constabulary force should be given at
100,0001. per annum, and the town police at 70,000/. It is proposed
that out of those sums, 100,000/. a.year should be secured on the Conso-
lidated Fund, Lobe paid out of this revenue for the purposes of education.
Sir, that income, for the present, would be collected by the
officers of the Woods and Forests, under the direction of
the State, and would be payable like any other sums which
are devoted for the purposes of a Civil Government. If it were
thought better that it should be made payable to the Treasurer
of the countries, that plan might be adopted. There would likewise be a
sum—it was impossible to state positively what it would be—
perhaps about 40,0001., arising from other sources, and in that
case it is my opinion that Parliament ought to devote that
sum to local charities in Ireland—and I must say the
more they can do to extend education, the more they perform their
duty towards Ireland, and the more likely they are to have the benefit
of order in that country. With respect to this question of
education in Ireland, unnecssary as it is for me to en-
force the advantage of a grant for this purpose, I will
state that I have looked upon this question of education of
all classes in Ireland, proposed as it was by the Noble Lord op_
posite, and carried into effect with much more success than I
had thought possible—l have looked at it as of far deeper
importance than education in any other country. I look at it as of so
much importance, partly because being a friend to the Eestablished
Church, I see in Ireland that we cannot have an Established Church.
It was stated most fairly by a Member of the other House of Par-
liament, that in Ireland you have a Church connected with the
State, but not with the majority of the people—(Hear, hear.)—
and that you have a Church connected with the majority of
people, but not with the State. Ido not anticipate, however much
I should think it desirable, that the clergy not connected with
the State and the Roman Catholic and Presbyterian clergy
should be connected with the State, according to the resolution
passed in this House—there was a resolution passed that it was
expedient to provide by law for the payment of the Roman
Catholic Clergy. I know not whether after he has rescinded our
resolution, the Hon. Baronet intends to propose to rescind that.—
(Great cheering.) But with regard to any plan or scheme of that kind,
whatever any persons may think of its policy, I think no person
in the present circumstances of the times—considering the opinions of
the Church of England—considering the opinions of the Protestant
Dissenters—and considering, in the last place, the opinions of
the Roman Catholic clergy and laity, will think that plan likely
to effect the object.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Whether that plan be
wise 'or not, I say that, by means of education, you may divert
in some degree, what I consider to be the effect of not having an
Established Church connected with the State. You may have men of
education—men of learning and morality—men able to teach and
inculcate the common precepts of religion and morality, with-
out being exposed to the hostility of any sect or denomination.
—(Hear, hear.) I think, Sir, for that reason, that the establishment
of schools in Ireland, and the sufficient provision for the education of
schoolmasters—that is a matter of much more importance in Ire-
land than it is in any other country in the world.—(Loud
cheering.) Sir, I will not go further over the details of the resolutions
which I have to propose. You have in them, on the one hand, an
income secured to the Clergy, and you have the means of the redemption
of the charge upon which it is secured. On the other hand, you have
the total separation of that which has hitherto been the income of the
Clergy from all topics of irritation and discontent. You provide for
the feelings of the people, and for the avoidance of those occasions
in which persons might themselves, in conscience, be justified in resist-
ing payments, to which in law they were bound. These advantages
appear to me, to be in themselves necessary in the present state of the
Church and the country. And I think, that if you carry those resolutions
and found practical measures upon them, you will to a great extent
prepare and promote the welfare of Ireland ; and I say still
more, that you will promote the harmony of your Constitution.—
(Laughter and cries of " Oh, oh," from the Tory Gallery, responded to
by cheers from the Ministerial Benches.) Sir, I can go fUrther,
and say that this would be a final and perpetual measure.—(Loud
cheering, and cries of " Oh, oh.") Sir, Ido not say that the
people of Ireland will not feel any disrespect, or any dislike
whatever towards the Church of Ireland.--(Hear, hear, hear.)
Having stated thus much with respect to the resolutions, I must ob-
serve that what I have lately seen has made me much less sanguine
thin I was formerly, that they would form the foundation of a successful
measure. In the first place, the conduct of the clergy of the Established
Church, in various parts of Irelanc, seems to show that they are deter..
mined rather to continue this agitation—rather to maintain the present
state of things, than to agree to any equitable 'Settlement of the question.
—(Loud cries of " Oh," from the Opposition) I think that they very
much mistake, or very much underrate, the advantages they might have
derived from the adoption of the plan which we proposed—first, from the
due enforcement of the law; and, secondly, from the political tranquillity
which has of late prevailed in Ireland. I think that they did not dwell
enough upon these circumstances, when they threw away all hope and
chance of making an accommodation, in order to rest upon what some of
them call the imperfect state of the law.—(Hear.) .. In one of the pe-
titions which they have recently addressed to Parliament upon the
subject, they declared, as if that were a great concession, that they were
ready, for the sake of peace, to give up 15 per cent of their income.
Singular this, that they should give such an exact measure of the
value of peace.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) Sin.
gular, surely, that these Christian clergymen should exactly de.
cide that peace in Ireland is worth 15 per cent. of their income.—(Loud
cries of " 011," from the Opposition.) In fact, the concession they
would make is not even 'so much as 15 per cent. of their income, be_
cause, according to the Act introduced by the Noble Lord opposite, in
cases where the tithe is easy of collection the landlord may take it into
his own hands, and pay it, minus 15 per cent., to the clergyman ; there-
fore, according to the present state of the law, wherever tithes are easy
of collection, wherever there would be any sacrifice on the part of the
clergyman, the landlord can enforce the full payment.—(" No, no,"
from several Members on the Opposition benches.) In what cases then
would the 15 per cent. be actually given up ? In those cases only
where the tithe was difficult of collection ; where the landlord had not
taken it upon himself ; and where the clergymen would be gainers and
not losers by the substitution of a deduction of 15 per cent. its place
of their present loss.—(" No, no," from the Opposition benches.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite seems to contradict my statement. Does
he contradict this, that the landlord can take upon himself the collection
of the tithe, and pay it, with a deduction of 15 per cent., to the clergy.
man P

Mr. GOULBURN (as we understood)—When the leases fall in,
Lord JOHN IIUSSELL—True, but those are the cases in which
.he greatest difficulties take place. The cases in which the lease is
given in, and in which the occupier is obliged to pay the tithe, are the
cases in which the difficulties are constantly arising. But, at all events,
this will not be denied : that the other House of Parliament, represent-
ing the clergy, and acting in behalf of the clergy; sent down a Bill to
us, in which a diminution of twenty-five per taut, was made in the
income of the clergy; yet there are now men in Ireland, Christian
clergymen, who say that the utmost that they will do for the sake of
peace is a diminution of 15 per cent, and no more, in the amount of
their income.—(Cries of " Oh !" from the opposition, responded to by
loud cheers from the ministerial benches.) I say, therefore, that these
unreasonable pretensions on the part of the clergy of the Establishment
in Ireland—(Renewed cries of ' Oh," from the opposition)—that this
insensibility on their • part to the evils of a protracted contest with
the people, makes me far less sanguine than I formerly was as to the
possibility of coming to any accommodation or compromise upon the
subject.—(Hear.) Everybody on both sides of both Houses of Parliament
must concur in regretting the exorbitance of the clergy upon this subject
—(oh ! from the opposition)—but beyond that--beyond the exorbitance
and obstinacy of the clergy, there is tho notice given by the Hon, Baronet
opposite (Sir T. Acland), which, according to the Honourable Baronet
and'his friends, is to be taken as a necessary preliminary to any legis-
lation upon the question of tithes and of Church property in Ireland.
Let me call the attention of the House to the circumstances under
which that notice has been given—to the circumstances which have pre.
ceded the debate upon the present occasion. In the year 1836 we sent
up a tithe Bill to the House of Lords which was returned materially
altered. Those alterations we refused to assent to, and the Bill was
lost. In the same year we sent up to the House of Lords a Bill re.
specting municipal corporations in Ireland. That Bill I will not say
was altered, but was totally disfigured in the other House of Parliament.
—(Hear, hear.) The whole principle of it was subverted.—(Hear,
hear.) We insisted upon maintaining the principle of creating (if you
will) popular corporations in Ireland. That principle was resisted by
the House of Lords, and in consequence that Bill also was lost. This
was the result of the Session of 1836—a result which gave, in
the first place, great disappointment to those in Ireland who looked
to a settlement of these questions, and which, in the second
place, was exceedingly injurious to the character and authority of
Parliament.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Whether men attacked the
majority in this House for what they termed its unreasonable
proposals, or whether they attacked the other House of Parliament as
being an hereditary body unfit to legislate for the great mass of the
people, in either way the character and authority of Parliament suf-
fered in public estimation. And such discussions among the public,
whether they have ended in derogating from the authority of this
House, or whether they have succeeded in diminishing the reputa-
tion of the other House of Parliament, could not but have been at-
tended with danger to the mixed Constitution of this country
(Hear, hear.) In 1837, other measures were proposed, the first of
which, I think, was the Municipal Corporations Bill. Seeing the evil
which had already occurred—seeing that which I thought might still
occur, I stated, in proposing the 51unieipal Corporations Bill in 1837,
that we considered it a vital question to the Government, and that
we could not go on proposing it from year to year unless we saw
seine chance that Parliament would be disposed to legislate upon it.
When I did this it was perfectly competent--not certainly for those
in this House who formed the minority, but to those were op.
posed to us in the other House of Parliament, and who formed
the large majority of that assembly—to say that they insisted
upon the abolition of Corporations in Ireland, and that they
would either reject our Bill altogether or introduce provisions into
it totally inconsistent with the existence of popular corporations. The
effect of such a proceeding, as everybody must have known at the time,
would have been either the immediate resignation of the MiuistrY,—
(Laughter from the Opposition)—or the proposition of such measures to
ascertain OPPicift4 sense of the people upon the question as could not
then have ilegi adopted. Nre should then have tendered advice to the
Crown which WoOfitiClt then have been accepted, and in that slayagain the dissolution of the Ministry was the certain
c:e-fisevences I
do not speak merely of what would nrols:;;sly tiave. 'happened, but of
what actually did happen, tii9t §"tat that there was not a single
member or the capin4 sy!rio olq not think that, upon the rejection of
the Irish isfultioipal Corporations Bill by the House of Lords, it would
be necessary for us either immediately to tender our resigna‘tien, Of. to
proceed to some steps by which that measure might have some chalice
and prospect of being carried without further lois of time. However;
those who were eppo.ied to us slid not choose to take that line of conduct;
Had they, clone so, they would have had the whole course beftwe them,.and: they would hare had the opportunity of submitting wln4ever mea.
cures thei, thooptror the contidcratinof larliaiagritl jgiey

r

C }Tor itions to lie) oid ; the, would have gone to issue in this Houslia s
would have stoo unuoubted'y, ueon grgroundrefusng PPe
as
Ministers of the Crown, of proposing soca other measures a: th
11,d
upon that question, but they woe Id hay had the advantage,
n
judgment they miget deem nvot beirefieiel to the ceuntry.
t (e)
toitnit,aek
they
et '.hat apt,. coupeop,,se d
one.',bs afterer .1
it should be deferred un'il certain other Bilis which were in pt( greof
here should also he laid on the table of the Lords. The language
ethat
our opponents in this I !sise was of a similar nature, imP'Ying
poplu,e
tiahtl le;si. ct e telen',st sent
Sttel tat:id telir‘lhiel et:On s
when the Tithe Bil, b •ettle CorporatiOns ueon the same
tar basis as those estaleishea in England and Scotland should nott
0.
ernoun
denied to the people of Ireland. That was the effect and
their declarations. Every rumour of convers,,tion was in strict eon
•
formity with the language which they held in Parliament. Every
whisper in the street, every public declaration in the House, alike an'
nounced that proposiiinns were to be made to the Legislature upon
which all sides could agree without any derogatiOn of the honour of
Parliament. All these rumours, all these hints, all these statements,
seem to have been confirmed on the 29th of June, 1837, when the Du
of Wellington stated what his intentions were with respect to the
principal measures in dispute between the two Houses of Parliaments
The Irish Municipal Corporations Bill was viewed by the Dulse of
Wellington in this light :—" It is not my intention to enter into a°2:
agreement with respect to the Irish Municipal Corporations Bill. eln
former discussions with respect to this Bill I stated my objection
to it ; not as to itself alone, but as connected with other Irish
measures. I still retain the same objections. At the sense
time I must say that it is my anxious wish to put an seed to the tithe
question, which was introduced seven years ago. It is also my wish
that some arrangement should be made for a provision for the poor to
Ireland. lam desirous to see the corporation question settled when
arrangements can be made for carrying out the other questions Connected
_
with it. lam most desirous that the Parliamentary discussion that now
occurs on these questions from year to year should be brought to a closet
and I can assure the Noble Viscount that if in the next Parliament We
shall meet in the same relative positions, I shall be prepared to concur
with him on all those subjects in any reasonable measure he may intry
duce for their final and satisfactory settlement." This declaration i, of
the very grea:est importance.--(Cheers from both sides of the 1-Inn'e,/,
It contains many things, of which the last is not the least im
declares, in the first place, a willingness on the part of the Duke
this;
Wellington to enter candidly and fairly upon a settlement of the
great Irish questions of Tithes, Poor-laws, and Municipal Corporati°°:‘,
That is important; but in the next place it declares that the Noble Dt,,"",
would be prepared to enter into the discussion of such measures W. 7
the view to their final ;adjustment, whilst Lord Melbourne rine'
from
manned at the head of the Admistration,—(Hear, hear, hear,
the Ministerial benches.) I can conceive that if the Duke of Weill
ton or the Right Honourable Baronet (Sir It. Peel) opposite bed sa,
" I am ready to agree to measures upon this subject which shall lead to
portant.
()Pi
the settlement of them," it would be remarked that the
be entertained was, that if the present Administration would Yield .°
his suggestion he would make propositions in conformity with his oP!",
Mons, his views, and his sentiments upon these questions, which should
be satisfactory to Parliament and the country. But the Duke of VV,,,e
lington did not say that. He said, " with the Noble Lord," meaning
Lord Melbourne, " in his present position at the head of the G°"'"",-,
ment, I shall be ready to enter into an agreement or arrangement uP°e;
these disputed questions."—(Cheers.) NOW if he had added a f
words to that declaration, and those words had been different from all
the rest—if he had said, " But I have one proposition to make nisnal)
namely, that the declarations which the Noble Lord (Lord Melb°a,"e• .
made in the House of Lords at the commencement of his stdre'is
tration shall be repudiated, and the resolutions which were come
(Contintuke:
to by the House of Commons shall be rescinded"—
Proposition
to
and loud cheering from the Ministerial side)—if the Noble Vsbie
had said that he would at once have provoked this answer from the /to
Lord at the head of the Government : " It is true that you have made
these proposals, but you couple with them conditions inconsistent°
po.
our principles—inconsistent with our honour—(Cheers from the .Ihi ese
sition)—and upon such terms I cannot propose any measures upon Lodi.
subjects." It is owing to the concealment of those conditions-4°, ies
tions which I say would have been inconsistent with our PrineiPteet
and our honour, that our opponents hays been able to go on from 80s,
to this in the course I shall presently describe. In the first place' ',sent
was the declaration of the Duke of Wellington
given with their a'•
and authority, or was it not ?—(Cheers from the Ministerial side') ope,
it was not, they ought immediately to have declared a difference al nee
nion.—(Cheers from the same quarter.) If it was, I cannot °°nco
roe
how it could be that at the end of the Session of 1837 they could peal
or hide that which they knew we could never agree to,
pose certain propositions of arrangement, and at the same time
chit
end to whi the
was impossible that our assent could be obtained.—(Cheers tr°,,nie se
Ministerial side, and cries of ""Hear, hear.") I say this, l'ueur
we have acted upon the strength of the declarations made by,...
opponents in this and the other House of Parliament—(Hear, hear)
and upon the assurance, as I may say, which was generally under's`,,as
that any propositions that were to be made should be propositionoo,
we might consistently support. Soon after the close of the last Sea no
when the measures with regard to Ireland were to be considered!in
of
Noble Friend at the head of the Government, acting upon the fat sea
the assurances he had received, urged upon me this proposition.
in•.;s
said, " It would not be Just either to you or to the House of Cot
M:00
that you should be required to produce measures other that,
which think
you think consistent with your principles; but so Much d ,in
may be yielded to the House of Lords, that with regard to the or
niesde
which these measures shall be sent up to them, that order shall he
ought
in same degree conformable to their wishes."—(Hear.) I t‘h.the
that this reprosentation made to me by Lard Melbourne nightresPee"
disposition of the House of Lords was a representation to which 1 h
very properly agree, and I resolved, not from any party advantage(o3"od
from a sincere desire to reserve to this country as Well 35 to it r
the benefits which I felt assured would result from the settlenswenii‘c.
these questions, to act in conformity with the suggestion
my Noble Friend had made to me. Had he told me the th which
would be something introduced at the end °f
these
"e
durieg
cussions to which I could never agree, 011
s all our
the present Session would have been different. illy oPi°n-lu°n' That
opinions were strongly in favour of Irish Municipal Corporations.
enerat
was a question most agreeable to the Irish people, and to the g
that
sence of the people in England. The measure we had framed' 'lW:bloke
subject was founded upon Just principles, and would produce, as I
that
nonebut beneficial effects.—(Hear, hear.) I should have urged .
question In the first place.—(Hear, hear.) But depending upon the as
surances we had received, I brought in another measure—the IneaSiir:
for extending a system of Poor-laws to Ireland. After massy long an
harassing debates, we carried that measure through this House, a*-
ere
sent it up to the House of Lords. Why was this ? Because IW°
told that that was a question which it was desirable should be sent uP to
that House before any others that wero intended to apply to Ireland-
Many Trish Members told me that 1 was wrong in postponing a measure
which I had brought forward in previous Sessions of Parliament, ee
which was justly popular in Ireland, for the sake of a measure which
niust necessarily be attended by many difficulties, and Upon which the
popularity of the Ministry in Ireland would be risked, and might hb:
lost.—(Hear, and cheers,) Therefore, they urged upon me, in
,;.-
strongest manner, not only the propriety, but the necesst
of bringing forward the Irish Municipal Corporations I/10
prior to the introduction of the measure for the establishment of a sYste
of POOYAWS in Ireland. What was the answer ? " I will do n° such
thing; I will not say that I have not acted in the most conciliassory
manner with respect le, the propositions to be made in the other House
of Parliament; I will not say that I will carry forward the Irish M.i"ois
cipal Corporations Bill merely for the sake of obtaining a party 2'7 tois
tags,".,,-(Hear.) Our opponents have taken great advantage ° cor,
conciliation.—(Great cheering.) With respect to the Municipal o
porations Bill, when the Right Hon. Gentleman asked me whet h ;Ater
would not postpone going Into the Committee upon that Bill till was a
the tithe Question was considered, I again agreed to do so.
This the
further proposition to which I assented, and I agreed to bring aboutl
had,
tithe question before it. If the Hon. Baronet who is this night d
o
to bring forward a motion for reselndin the Resolutions of 10.0 of
as he might have done, given notice of gthat motion at an early per: As.
the Session i , nstead of doing so only four day- aeo I should not ha
,or,
ferred the Irish Municip 1 C • ' lee there' a
a ,orporations Bill.—(Hear.) '„ has 3
has all the advantage to be derived from my conduct, and he has
teal
the advantage of any unpopularity we might have suffere"..nioipal
urging forward other Measures, and from delaying the AI"
se IS
Corporetione Islie—,Mear,
hear.) The only advantage pasta eon-
the ativentege I shall derive for my future guidance for° the ioos
duct Only opponents, which is, that whenever they make
Prlfealswheos
shall consider these professions as snares—(Great ons is
dcclara
uch
is
ever they make declarations, I shall consider those
stratagems, and intended to deceive, (Immense cheering.) S fp-
the position, such the circumstances, in which the Honenra.bsl:hould
ronet thinks fit to make his proposition. That that proPositica' ewe,.
come from those who profess an amazing attachment to the the
that the bar to any settlement of this important question,
,t‘";"01,.,
raising of this angry debate—(Hear, hear, and laughter from ti"cti they
position)--that the endeavour to force upon us a point on whi!
repeats
must know we should not yield, should come from those who, ' oteing
profess an extraordinary attachment to the Church, IS PerhaPsesent P°ete'
that ought to surprise me. It is a very happy satire of a great
that when Discord was sent for, the messenger who sought os ono.
her Oat in courts nor in camps, but in a monastery.—(Cherkoebi,
laughter.) No doubt the poet, who gave that description we' s sio"
that men who profess an exceeding abstinence from the affairs
01,1/
follies of the world, and who say that their wish and intention's. _
roils
the inculcation of religion and morality,are very often as fond of
ups,
and contentions as, or still more so than, those whore ordinary
tions are with the concerns of the world. lam makin to
g this 31!°5; ;t
the the supposition—which I can hardly doubt is a correct one-a-Wadebate
wish of those who are most connected with the clergy, that aw'th Se:
should take place upon those resolutions of 1835. Now, St',
"nie"
spect to the resolutions themselves, I beg leave to state that WY 140°
is the same that it ever has been.—(Cheers.) With regard to theeth re'
itself, I may observe that this present House has nothing tO de `'iie re-
solutions entered into by any former Parliament, no more than tide
solutions with regard to the Catholic question were afterwards re-
of deliberation in a subsequent Parliament. Resolutions have There
rieus occasions been adopted by the House of ConanenLaetioos
were resolutions with regard to the Catholic question---,!: elergl
with regard to a provision by law for the Roman Cath°oeget oc-
also resolutions with respect to tithes; yet it was never tke
a
cessary that any subsequent Parliament should immediately , them;
nizance of those resolutions, for the purpose of Corlsider'n'eear:")
before any other measures were • of C
adopted.—(Cries
Therefore, so far as legislation is concerned,
liberty to legislate, as it best can, in the state evitei
resentp s
climatal require"' by Os'
lees, and as the inclination ionporum
regard to myself, I will state what these resolutions are, and et] the
.otie
authority I think they are supported. The first resolution— selere"
onlyfi one involving a principle,
the others being what were con ;OA
aoition) I
obe adopted at the titne—(A laugh from the Op! 'o° " that ar .y surplus which may be derived, after affording eln se, seven
struction to tho members of the Established Church, ought '-
tee° t or Per-
for the purpose of education, without distinction of religious the re'
suasion." In that opinion I fUlly and entirely concurred when
anti Ct 041
solution was • • Ut
originally proposed—in that ()pillion I fully aeecao
concur now.—(Loud cheers.) Ido think that anything whtei
est pros
derived from the Church of Ireland ought to be, and might nl7.t tile
party be, given for the general education of the peoples andi Ll(flcer'
s
whole people of Ireland ought to have the benefit of in
hear, and cheers,) The Board of Commissioners of edLlCl,itref),
Ireland, consisting of persons of great authority in the lb i
as well as in civil matters, have laid down no less a of
(Hear, hear.) Their report is
signed by the Archbi no,e thie
Armagh, the Archbisliell of Cashel, the Bishop of Kills:l3o3od
Itev. Isaac Cqrry, the nor. Thomas Elrington, co,ter I
L. Edgwortii, Mr. James Whitelaw, and Mr. J. L.
and they propose that for ' t tax wed,
the purposes of education
be imposed on the clergy of Ireland.bearmiht not, it is subs:,
be deemed unreaeonable that they should ated at a snap not
ell
seeding two see,.
ee, cent, on their respective incomes, to be asccrti...-tbat
the Bishops in such manner as would be most expedient. N°vll;ereti•
proposition recognises the principle of imposing a tax on the Cie corn'
Then in
the, next place, as to the nature of that education, tl d
misstoners state " that no plan of education, however wisely a wise,
exceptionably contrived in other respects, could be carried into af
tual operation it% Ireland, unless it were explicitly avowed and
io
und
•asteSel ee a leading principle of the plan that no attempt was
_et er
made tO influence or disturb the peculiar religious tenets of any silot if
denomination of Christians."—(Hear, hear.) Now, I contend „wed
you were to rescind the resolution of 1835, still the:principle oleled by
in it is equally einlecatlied in the report which has been
the Lord Veimate of Ireland.—Loud cheers ) The principle
moms consecrated in that report, It is a wise and just pie__ y.1r
and I for one should lass glad to see it carried into efite'„c..
tending to impeove the people of Ireland, and teuding
wise to meke the, Esteisliseed Church more acceptable to that peol!e•
tea
(C(Cheers,) Ziu c;ne of the subsequent resolutions tai'lB3s it w s,as t'ere.
that no plan Ibs the settlement of the Tithe and Church question
co'
land could be final or satisfactory nesices It embodied the principle
hat V° •
tensed in the first resolution, ti is I think, the converse vs