The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-04 00:00:00

•
oome a candidate for that borough without being led into
o •
corrupt practices of this kind. That was a statement to
which which he (Lord J. Russell) could not give
(Hear, hear.) He could understand its being said his assent.
said
(though
a
he thought that would be a most unfounded. st tt,
h)
that a candidate could not go to Chathamwdoithokouyartbdeianpg.
so beset by applications for promotion in the
pointments in the hands of theGtoovtehrenmtheoantpttai
there, that
but
he really could not avoid yielding
that there should be any such temptationoter ybattChheastihtuamatioans
to oblige the candidate to bribeth e v
Post-office, was really a
of letter-carrier, a situation
in the
statement which appearraetoxo, hhiemar.)uttHerelycot.it(hi without
ianya--
thing like foundation.
gine that Chatham, any more than any other borough, was
in such a position that
a man could not be a candidate
there without promising placesinofthtehePooostm-omffiitctee.e,
then another gentleman, a member
fore he could not vote
said that he believed Sir F. Smith did not intend
to influence this voter, and there corruptly
for prosecuting Sir F. Smith. The lion. getnetllieef,
quite right, if that was his conscientious man
not was
to
vote for such a resolution ; but what he (Lord J,R ucsosuellld)
could not understand was, how the hon. member
have been a party to this report. (HeF,E hear.)Fhoardtnhoe
house was placed in this difficulty—if Sir F.Smith
corrupt intention of influencing a vote the walasoltehmatatotferinof
f.
the offence was wiped out, for the offence w
fluencing a voter by giving a bribe
withthe
ought not to have been a report ;
and in that case there
charging
naemer
hsimof
grave offence. (Hear, hear.) . Other
com-
mittee had taken a different view ; one of them had stated
that he was convinced that Sir F. Smith was guilty of
bribery ; yet it appeared that it was not their wish that a
prosecution should be instituted. (Hear.) Upon the
whole, this placed the house in a situation of great diffi-
culty. He had no doubt the committee agreed to what
they thought right, but he could not but consider that
they ought either to have stated that Sir F. Smith had,
in their opinion, been guilty of bribery, and to have
supported a motion of this kind, or they ought not to
have preferred this grave charge in their report.
(Hear, hear.) He thought it would be very difficult
to allow to stand upon the records of the house the
solemn resolution which the hon. baronet (Sir J. Shelley)
had read, and which had been recorded as a resolution of
the house for a great number of years, and not to take
notice of a case which was brought before them by a corn-
, mittee specially appointed to inquire into the matter.
The justice of the house would be very ill-satisfied by reso-
lutions to which they frequently came, that persons much
distressed in point of pecuniary circumstances should be
prosecuted by the Attorney-General on account of corrupt
transactions in which they had taken part ; the character
of the house would hardly stand well if it should appear
that they ordered a prosecution, without any hesitation,
in the case of 10 or 20 persons in a low condition of life,
but that when it came to a person of distinction and sta-
tion the house would not consent. Therefore, he (Lord J.
Russell) thought the house was placed in great difficulty.
He had said that he did not think it was the business of
the Government in any way to attempt to influence the de- 1
*ikon of the house ; he had meant to give his vote, and allow
the question to pass without taking any part in the dis-
cussion, if he had not been appealed to. He thought, per-
haps, in consideration of the unanimous wish of the com-
mittee, the house might refrain from instituting this pro-
secution ; but at the same time he felt that this was a
course which would expose the house to a great miscon-
struction. The committee had brought them into that
position that he should find it very difficult hereafter to
vote for any prosecution by the Attorney-General in any
case whatever after this case had been passed over. (Hear,
hear.) He did not know that it might not be as well that
the resolution should be expunged, and the prosecution not
take place. He did not know that it was a very effectual
way of repressing bribery. But he thought, to prosecute
all the low and poor persons, and pass over cases like this,
weuld be a course fatal to the reputation of the house
(hear, hear); and if the house were of opinion, as they
seemed to be, that they should not prosecute in this case,
he should come down in any future case where a prosecu-
tion by the law officers might be proposed, and give his
vote against it. (Hear, hear.)
After an explanation on the part of Mr. NEWDEGATE,
which was drowned in the cries for a division,
Mr. S. WORTLEY said he could have understood the
line of argument of the noble lord, if the house had had
before it nothing but the report of the committee and the
opinions now given by its members; but the evidence taken
had been laid on the table, and if there was any use in lay-
ing the evidence on the table, it surely was to enable the
house to judge whether they should take any ulterior pro-
ceedings. (Hear.) It would be well for the house to con-
sider, before consenting to this motion, whether it would
not be regarded oat of doors as having an appearaece of
vindictive feeling—(oh!)—or of making a scapegoat for
many offenders (Hear, hear.) He could not conceive it
possible that a conviction should take place—(hear, hear) - -
and the house would do well to be cautious of venturing
open proceedings so grave with a prospect of discomfiture
and defeat. (Hear.) It seemed that the law adviser of
the Crown held that there was ground for a prosecution.
That could only be, he apprehended, by making use of the
examination of Sir F. Smith himself. But that was con-
trary to the whole spirit of our criminal procedure. (Hear.)
It was the practice of other countries for prisoners to
be interrogated by the judge and cross-examined by coun-
sel ; thank God it was not the practice of this country,
but if the evidence of Sir F. Smith was to be made the
foundation of a prosecution, we should make a precedent
which might be most mischievous in its consequences.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL explained that the right
hon. and learned member was mistaken ; the law officers of
the Crown, in giving the guarded opinion which the house
had heard, had proceeded upon the general evidence in the
case. He would warn the house against sitting in judg-
ment upon the decision of its committees. (Divide.)
Sir J. SHELLEY said that, after the speech of the noble
lord, he should certainly go to a division. (Divide.)
Mr. DRUMMOND, who was met with a renewed call
for a division, was very sorry to be obliged to spoil any
gentleman's dinner, but had still more reluctance to
allow this debate to close without entering his protest, and
giving his reasons for so doing, against the course now
insisted upon by the honourable baronet. He agreed
with the hon. member for Oldham, (Mr. Fox) that this
was but a poor exhibition of their would-be purity. He
(Mr. Drummond) had ever abstained from taking a part in
such discussions so long as the purists confined their exer-
tions to disfranchising voters who had the wisdom to make
the only us* they could of their votes—(loud laughter)—
but when, going beyond that, the house was now urged to
institute criminal proceeding against a meritorious officer
and an hon. gentleman—(cries of "hear, hear")—when
they were all called upon to take up stones to cast at Sir
F. Smith, he should like to inquire where was the man who
could say "I am without sin ?" (Hear, and a laugh.) It
was said some time ago in the Edinburgh Review, to show
the absurdity of enacting laws against the sale of game, that
" The Three per Cents. would eat pheasants." (Laughter.)
In the same way he would say that the Three per Cents.
would sit in that house—(hear, hear)—that bank directors
and East India directors would sit in that house—(hear)
—that "railway kings" would sit in that house—(loud
cries of " hear")—and they were threatened occasionally .
with a rush of the whole of what was called " the railway
interest." (Hear, hear.) So long as there were rich and
poor, you never would be able to persuade men that there
was crime in catching and killing and selling wild animals
—(oh !)—nor in a poor man selling anything which a rich
man was willing to buy. (Hear, hear.) Thera were only
two ways of governing mankind ; you must either govern
by brute force, with the assistance of standing armies and
police, or you must govern by self-interest. You might
call iebribery, or corruption, or give it any hard name you
liked, but it was that which pervaded your whole system,
from the palace of the Sovereign, through the House of
Lords, through the House of Commons, and through the
whole of the constituencies, and you could not rule in any
other way. True, the brute-force system had rather run to
seed in Franco just now—(laughter)—and the Bastile and
lettres de cachet were revived in a way that seemed very
offensive to us, who talked of the liberty of the subject;
but, pray, was not our system of national representation
run to.seed ? (Hear.) Did gentlemen think that the exhi-
tion they had made in this last year was not a good
excuse to tho Emperor of Austria and the Emperor
of the French for not having fallen so deperately in love
with representative institutions ? And why was it that
this exhibition had been made this year? Mrs. Hannah
More—(" Oh") told us of a gentleman who went " in search
of a wife," and Mr. Thomas Moore—(a laugh)—told us
that there was a gentleman who went "in search of a re-
ligion ;" last year for the first time we had a Prime Minis-
ter who went in search of a policy. (Laughter and cheers.)
What was tho consequence ? He gave four months' notice
. that he was going out upon this expedition, and every at-
torney in the kingdom determined that there should be a
contested election in every place ; and they got up candi-
dates, and not only candidates but petitions. (Hear, hear.)
They returned the members, and, as many of the commit-
tees of the house had stated, they unseated members by
their own conduct in bribing, where the member had no-
thin, to do with the matter. (Hear, hear.) They got
up false petitions. (Hear, hear.) In this very case—the
Chatham case—it came out that, before there was a rival
candidate to Sir F. Smith, a petition was got up. It was
a necessary part of their machinery to have a member to
petition against. Then the matter was brought here, to the
Coppocks and the Browns—(laughter) —brought here to the
tender mercies of the Carlton and Reform Clubs—(hear)—
and they played it out as they would a game of chess,
giving a bishop for a rook—(loud laughter)—three false
petitions (as a gentleman explained to one committee) for
one fighting petition. (Hear, hear.) Why was there such
desperate anxiety, to come to that house ? Because that
house was the great place-bazaar—(laughter)—the great
office-market. (Laughter.) Here place-scrip was sold and
bought. (Laughter, and cries of 'Oh !") Why was the
house blest with so many gentlemen of the legal profes-
sion ? (Loud laughter.) Was it not because they found
that a flashy partisan speech in that house was a surer
road to the bench than hard fagging in chambers or attend-
ance at court ? (Hear, hear.) But was it for the public
advantage that that should be school in which the lawyer
should study for the gravity of the ermine ? (Hear,
hear.) He was not sure whether the Attorney-General
was in his place just now, but there were gentlemen in
the house of whom it was pretty well known that by
this title they got the situations which they adorned.
(Laughter.) To be sure, every class had its price, as
well as every individual. You could not bribe in
the Houso of Lords by 2/. 10s., or a place in the
Post-office. (" Oh, oh !")—but was there no bribery in
making barons, viscounts, and viscounts, earls, and earls
marquises ? (Hear, hear.) There was a bill introduced by
the noble lord, or some reformer or other, prohibiting the
giving a
few yards of penny riband to the wives and
daughters of the electors—it was bribery ! But you wmfld
find in'the HousreiboafuLdords the gift of three yards of green
riband, or blue
(Laughter.) I,l' very conducive to the public inte-
rest.ing these e. (Mr. Drummond) was not censur-
Pl7"eedings,
yourho justified them ; it was the only,
system by whiscohreGernment could be carried on.
He was very
Government had not got a great
deal more power of that sort. (Loud laughter.) When
.
gentlemen came down to tht
horse they must carry on
their " bribery and corruption," as it was called (which
was self-interest), in another They must put up
things oaTv:tahaat sort—(laughter)—
to with seats at hoards, and thin
Particularly boring
why, he ma urns t abne tsheantt t o Hong Bong. (Roars
of laughter.) He (Mr. Drummond) was very sorry that
the Government had not in their gift
Hong Kongs ; the house would be much igmre;"rov
Iradanbyy
it. (Loud laughter.) But there were other
He was old enough to remember when Mr. Perteaveael%
Government was nearly destroyed because a gentleman in
the Treasury refused to vote for him until he had given
another brother a place—(hear, hear)—and did they not all
remember the failure of Sir R. Peel in forming a Govern-
ment in consequence of the interference of certain ladies of
Vie w the bedchamber? (Hear, hear.) An hon. gentleman
I .S.l). his nose—(a laugh)—but, unless all rumour's
„."---• •
...1, 1, itirned up
_7:7--s-„,..,........10bt ues united in falsehood,n. it was Said that the noble lord
:' >,_-' ''."---:--j- ~311-' -'"-•\11-01, not very long abo,
I received a letter of remonstrance
particularly remarkable
‘.474;5:'.Z:' -:-' ' -',:-froia the head of a large family not
et, ~.,.“ ~:-.•,
'"-- -1 .1' -•-•• - ‘ I'drAalent, because he had not included Some of them in
io e0.:!-._,
,-.'t , - ~ thellew arraligemento, (" Hear, hear,"
and A laugh,)
I\l r.:<•-".;