The Sun.
London, England, 1854-07-01 00:00:00

upon the subject of education. Ido not think the question
was stated very fairly in that letter, but the mode in which
it was stated was this —" We are in the enjoyment of a sys-
tem of religious education ; we, by our own efforts, are in
possession of that system, notwithstanding what ie said of
Prussia, notwithstanding what is said of America, we, the
the working men of England, are in possession of a fairer sys-
tem of education, which produces men of more thought and of
more capacity and intelligence than those systems which
are so highly vaunted. Will you, the member for the West
Riding of Yorkshire interfere with that system, and by
introducing a secular system of education, overthrow that
which is established ?" (Hear.) The argument was very
ably put in that pamphlet. Ido not think it is just as
applied to the hon. member for the West Riding ; but, at
all events, I think that any fears of that kind ought to be
allayed, for I believe you cannot establish any system of
national education, wisely or effectually, in which you do
not take into account the immense good which has been
done, and the immense good that is now doing, by these,
various societies. (Hear, hear.) I should bo very glad,
if in a parish meeting, or if in a meeting of a town coun-
cil, it could be agreed that a, particular kind of school
should be established ; that that school should be resorted
to by the parish, or by the inhabitants of the town gene-
rally, and that the school should work in harmony. At
the same time, we must recollect, that in order to
make any school work well, you must have an active
and zealous superintendence 'of- it, and not only
of the school itself, but of the schoolmaster and the
teachers. (Hear, hear.) If it is a school conducted in a
manner to violate conscience, or if it is pernicious to the
community, the masters and teachers at the head of it
ought not to take care of it. (Hear.) What I ask the
house to consider is, that there is an immense mass of
poor, who, I am sorry to say, are beyond all the efforts
hitherto made in their behalf. What the hon. gentleman
the member for Somerset says is quite true. There are in
our large towns, and in a great part of the country, a mass
of people who have not been educated at any school,
whose children are not educated at any school, and who
are beyond the efforts which are now being made, and, of
course, beyond. any of these parliamentary votes which
are merely given in aid and addition to the efforts of
others. This is the population to which I think any
measure of education ought to be directed. I think
that the present existing schools, which are doing great
good, let them be of what denomination they please, let
them carry on the business of education in any manlier
which their own conscience tells them is right—they are
providing for the great mass which is outside, and laying
the only practical foundation for any scheme of national
education. The honourable gentleman the member for
the West Riding, has repreSented—following too much in
this respect the representations made bythc honourable
member for Rochdale—that the committee of Privy
Council. is an irresponsible power, and that Parliament
has not been informed of the measures adopted by it.
Why, what we are endeavouring to do now is a testimony
to the contrary ; and I am sure it is our wish that there
should be full discussion upon the subject. But the
honourable gentleman says there was a plan adopted
last year, secretly, for a capitation rate over certain
parishes, and that this has existed a long while. Why,
last year, upon the 4th of April, I stated at great
length the views of the Government upon the subject
of education, and I mentioned that the measures
then proposed to be introduced, which had been laid
before the Privy Council, should be laid before Parlia-
ment. I said on that occasion :—" Seeing that such a
plan could not be universally adopted in this country,
and for this plain reason, tlkat in many parishes in the
country there could only be one school, we propose by
a minute, which has been for some time under considera-
tion, but which is not fully matured, to allow in certain
instances to places which have not municipal corporations
a certain sum per head for each child attending the school.
It will be necessary, however, to confine any such grants
to those sclsools where the schoolmaster has obtained a cer-
tificate of ability. That minute, when its provisions shall
have been fully matured, will be laid upon the table, and
the house before coining to any vote upon it, will have
ample opportunity for duly considering it." I produced the
minute soon afterwards; and if any one had wished tonaake
any observations upon it, it was fully open to him to do so.
I cannot but think, therefore, whatever may be the defects
of this system, that, as I-have said, it supplies all that
can be supplied, without calling it a plan of education.
The proceedings of the Committee of Council like those
of any other department, are open to Parliament. Every
estimate that is formed, every ground upon which grants
are made, is laid before Parliament, and Parliament has
an opportunity upon every occasion either of rejecting or
approving its proposals. Under these circumstances I can-
not agree to the amendment of the lion. gentleman. I
should be glad to think, however, that by means of this
discussion we may be able to anise at anything like agree-
ment. The hon. member for the West Riding has exerted
himself most laudably for the improvement and extension
of education in this country ; but I do not believe, if we
were to bring in a plan which took no notice of religion, we
should obtain the assent to it'either of this house or of
country. (Hear.) I believe a plan of this kind would be
liable to all that feeling of opposition which was roused
many years ago to the plans I have noticed. But after all,
I do not believe that there is a great deal of ignorance in
this country. I do not believe there is any country in
which education has made such rapid progress as it has
in this within the last few years. I trust the result of that
progress will be that we shall come to a general conviction
that that which remains to be clone should be effected by
Parliament. I quite agree with the hon. gentleman, that
there is no work more woithy of Parliament than the esta-
blishment of a system of national education, and to afford
that education to every child in the country. But I trust
that.whenever such a plan is brought forward it will have
bean maturely considered, because if the failures which
have taken place are repeated, like that for Scotch education
this year, it must have the effect of very much postponing
•the adoption of any plan for England and Wales for many
years to come. I have endeavoured, whether well or ill,
from the year 1539 to the present time, to promote educa-
tion, and I was in hopes that, though not able to carry
any system myself, I had effected something towards that
great object; but I am very sorry to find, from the repre-
sentations of the hon. member for the West Riding, that
he considers me the great obstacle to education. (No, no )
Mr. EWART expressed his satisfaction with the noble
lord's statements, and believed that great good had been
done by the committee of Privy Council. He was con-
vinced that nothing would be effectual as a national sys-
tem of education which did not include a general rate com-
bined with local self-government. He trusted that when
next the subject came to be discussed the noble earl would
be able to tell the house that something had been done for
the reform of grammar schools, a reform, which, in his
opinion, ferniest a necessary pendant to the reform in the
university.
Mr. L. HEYWORTH was entirely for the voluntary
principle, and was astonished that the hon. member for the
West Riling should doubt its efficacy. Tho best way to
educate the people would be to follow out the system of
free trade legislation which had already been auspiciously
begun, and the increased comforts that would follow would
make the people the more anxious for intellectual improve-
ment.

3lr. MIALL, on the understanding that the Government
would grant a committee of inquiry next session, withdrew
his amendment, and the vote was agreed to.
193,0011. national education (Ireland).
Mr. KENNEDY bore witness to the good results which
the system bad produced in Ireland, but was anxious that
its benefits should be extended by the introduction of in-
dustrial and agricultural schools.
Sir J. YOUNG quite agreed with the hon. gentleman.
No subject could be of more importance than a judicious
union within certain limits of industrial and literary edu-
cation, but he thought even the hon. member himself had
shown that industrial education had been already carried
to a great extent in connexion with the national system of
Education in Ireland. These were measures which could
not but lead to the well-being of Ireland, and showed that
as far as they could Government had performed their duty.
He 'saw no advantage that could arise from the committee
the hon. gentleman proposed, and thought that the house
might safely leave the matter in the hands of the Govern-
ment.

Onlhlre nna,gBrlesel(.l
fotor.
the department of science
and art..
eth votee next vote t.
Mr. HASTIE expressed a hope that in a future year
there would be grants for museums in Glasgow and other
large towns of Scotland.
Mr. CARDWELL observed, what might be done in a
future year ho could not say, but ho could not hold out
any hope that such a grant as was suggested would be pro-
posed.
Mr. JOHN MACGREGOR contended that Glasgow was
as much entitled to a seuserun as Edinburgh.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS complained that these new institu-
tions were extremely costly and prolific of patronage. Here
was a vote of
nearly 80,0001., of which 17,0001. was for
salaries.
' Mr. CARDWELL said the vote had been carefully
looked over, and was as low as'possible.
Mr. HEYWOOD said the vote for 8,2001. for meteoro-
logical observations at sea would give great pleasure to
many scientific gentlemen. The Americans bad paid great
attention to the subject, and the result had already been
the reduction of the voyage between New York and South
America by a fortnight.
Mr. J. BALL hoped that this vote next year would be
larger. Ile..believed, that within a very few years the
science of meteorology would so advance that in central
Europe the weather might be prognostigated many clays
beforehand, and that even in this notoriously uncertain
climate it might be predicted with perfect accuracy what
it would be for 24 hours. (Laughter.)
Mr. DRUMMOND was glad to bear that within a short
period they would know when they might with safety cut
their hay. That would indeal be a "stop in the right di-
rection." (Laughter.) He could not conceive why they
should class together science and the fine arts. Science,
he believed, was making some progress, but the fine arts
certainly were not. This fine art movement was a perfect
piece of national imposture. (Laughter.) It was not
much better than their votes for education. It was the
monomania of the day. (Laughter.)
The vote was then agreed to.
2,0061. for the salaries of certain professors at Oxford
and. Cambridge.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS should divide the committee on
this vote. Considering the immense revenues which the
universities possessed he was astonished that such an item
should have been put upon the votes.
Mr• WILSON said that these charges had been taken
from the civil list. There was, moreover, a provision in
the bill which they had just passed which held out an in-
ducement to the universities to take these charges upon
themselves ,• for the house Undertook, when they did so,
to abolish the stamp duty on degrees.
Mr. HEYWOOD thought it would be better to pas the
Vote, and to have a committee next year on the university
revenues and how they wore disposed of.
Mr. CRAUFURD complained that a portion of this vote
of 1001. was intended for the professor of civil law at Cam-
bridge, although that professor's chair had been vacant for
the last twelve mouths.
Tho committee then divided, u hen the numbers were—
For the vote
Against it 25
Majority --129
Mr. CAIRNS said the hOnonrable member for Ayr called
"No !" and, ha believed, voted in the other lobby. He
asked that the ben member's vote be struck out. (Hear.)
The CHAIRMAN sail if the hon. member for Ayr said
„No„ his vote must stand No. (A laugh.)
The numbers were again announced—

For the vote
Again 4 it 2G
Mljority -127
Tke house received the conweted numbers with cheers.
Mr. CRAUFURD said he called " No !" because he was
prevented from moving the reduction of the vote.,
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again.

- ORDER OF BUSINESS.
Lord J. RUSSELL stated that he proposed to go on
with the estimates on Monday and Thursday next, but to
take the Consolidated Fund Charges Bill before the com-
mittee of supply on Monday; and on Friday to proceed
with the Testamentary Jurisdiction Bill,