The Sun.
London, England, 1853-08-09 00:00:00

HE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING-, AUGUST 9, 1853.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

PETITIONS.
The Earl of WICKLOW presented a petition from
50 of the most eminent clergymen and lawyers in Dub-
lin,
complaining of the alterations lately made in the
li
national system of education in Ireland, the effect of
which was to place it in the power of a single child to
exclude religious works from a school, and praying their
lordships not to sanction such alteration.
Lord BEAUMONT presented a petition from clergy-
men, justices of the peace, and other persons in a re-
spectable position, in favour of the liberation of Edward
Murray, now under imprisonment for life in the Papal
territory.
The Duke of BUCCLEUCH presented a petition from
Glasgow in favour of the Public Houses (Scotland) Bill.
Lord COLVILLE presented nineteen petitions from
places in Scotland against the Universities (Scotland)
Bill.

COURT OF COMMON LAW (IRELAND (BILL)
On the motion of the LORD CHANCELLOR, in
the absence of Eord Brougham, who was away from
indisposition, this bill went through committee.
GENERAL BOARD OF HEALTH (No. 3) BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
NAVAL COAST VOLUNTEERS BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
PUBLIC LIBRARIES (IRELAND AND SCOT-

LANDS BILL.
The report of the amendments to this bill was con
sidered and agreed to.

PRIVATE WATER BILLS.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE moved an additional stand-
ing order to the effect, that when an application was
made to Parliament for a bill which proposed to abstract
water from any stream, notice of such bill should be
given on or before the 15th December preceding the ap-
plication, to all persons using the waters of such stream
for a distance of 20 miles below the point at which such
water was intended to be abstracted.
Lord REDESDALE supported the resolution, which
was carried.
IRISH. LANDLORD AND TENANT BILLS.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE inquired whether
the bills before the house relating to the law of landlord
and tenant in Ireland, which purported to consolidate a
large number of statutes, had been submitted to the law
advisers of the Irish Government, and whether their
opinion had been obtained as to the safety and accu-
racy of those bills in that respect.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said the bills were sub-
mitted to the present Lord Chancellor and the Attorney
and Solicitor General in Ireland, and he had great plea-
sure in saying that their report upon them was that they
were drawn up with great care, skill, and accuracy.
Their report was accompanied by a recommendation that
they should be passed as speedily as possible into law.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE believed that it was
physically impossible for these functionaries to have seen
and approved of the bills in their present state, for on
their last stage in the other house it appeared that five
acts of Parliament had been omitted from the sche-
dules, and five other acts inserted.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE promised to make in-
quiry into the subject.
The subject then dropped.
THE EASTERN QUESTION.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE then rose and
said—My lords, I last week took the liberty of putting
a question on the same subject to which I have again
to call your lordships' attention. I received an answer
upon that occasion from my noble friend, which I am
pleased to say was quite satisfactory. But, my lords,
unfortunately I am compelled almost to repeat the same
question in consequence of information which has since
been received. According to information which has ap-
peared in the public journals of this country, under date
of " Jassy, 28th July," it appears that the government
of that province has been entirely superseded, and a new
government has been established by the authority of the
Russian Emperor. It appears that the Hospodar is
allowed to form part of the new government, but three
assistants are named with him, and this council has the
entire legislative and administrative government of those
provinces. I believe the same course has been pursued
in Wallachia as in Moldavia, and those provinces are
now under a new administrative and legislative govern-
ment, appointed by the Emperor of Russia. But, my
lords, that is not all. It appears that contributions for
the support of the Russian forces are levied directly in
those provinces, and that certain Boyards have been
forcibly compelled to enlist in the service of the Russian
Emperor. We have then these provinces, if these ac-
counts be correct, in every respect under the rule and
government of the Czar ; the administrative and legisla-
tive functions are carried on under Russian authority ;
the taxation and resources of the country are managed
under Russian authority ; and, more than that, the
Russian armies are recruited from the inhabitants of the
country. Now, the first question which I have to ask
my noble friend is, whether he has received any infor-
mation on this subject, either contradicting or confirm-
ing the state of things which I have just now stated.
The second question—and it is one which very naturally
occurs, and so naturally that I cannot refrain from
putting it, even though I may be possibly thought in-
discreet in doing so—is one which I am sure every man
in this country, and every member of either house of
Parliament, is most anxious to receive information.
What, if these facts are true, if they cannot be contra-
tradicted, what has the Government of this country done
thereupon ? The question divides itself naturally into
two parts--what has been done here at home, and what
has been done by the English functionaries abroad ?
I (Hear, hear.) I have very little doubt as regards the
latter point, and I hope I shall be told there is very
little reason to doubt that at the moment I have the
honour of addressing your lordships the combined fleets
are at last before Constantinople, the other side of the
Dardanelles. (Hear, hear.) I cannot imagine it pos-
sible that the ambassadors of France and England have
any restriction to their discretion at present as to the
directions they may give the admiral commanding the
forces to which I have referred. Nor can I doubt for
an instant that my noble friend and relative at Constan-
tinople will have thought right to act with spirit and
energy, as becomes the representative of this great
country. (Hear.) If I ask what has been done at
home, I expect and hope I shall be told that either long
before this intelligence was received, or since it has been
received, there has been not a request for explanation,
but a categorical demand that the Danubian principali-
ties shall be evacuated by the Russian forces. (Hear.)
I say if we have undertaken and advised the Porte, so
that the Porte holds her arm and has not attempted to
defend her property, we have made ourselves parties to
these transactions as well by what is doing now as by
what has been done by formal treaties. I cannot be-
lieve, my lords, nor will I allow myself to believe, that
these statements are in all respects correct ; because if
it be true that Russia has assumed the government of
those principalities, has taken possession of the terri-
tory, and committed this aggression upon Turkey, it is
an entire contradiction to the circulars voluntarily issued
to the Courts of Europe, as well as the manifesto, issued
by the Russian general upon entering the provinces. I
am not going to discuss that matter now, of which no-
tice has been given for a future evening ; but I must
say I cannot doubt that the energetic steps to which I
have adverted must have been taken upon these pro-
ceedings, which are the strongest possible proceed-
ings of war. I believe I told your lordships that
when the Russian forces moved into those provinces
the Russian general declared that it was not war with
Turkey. What I have described is of the character
of war, and if you do not say it is war, then I say it is
piracy. (Hear.) It is war or piracy, and I want to
know whether we are in a condition to suffer war upon
such a pretext as is put forward, or to stand by and see
an act of piracy committed upon Turkey ? (Hear.) I
say, if we are told it is a question of treaties whether
the fleet shall go inside or outside the Dardanelles, a
state of war has abolished all treaties between Russia
and Turkey as far as Russia is concerned. (Hear.)
There does not exist one treaty binding Turkey to
Russia. after such an aggression as I have described.
There is no reason for not acting ; and what is the state
of things at home ? We are told, by answers in either
house of Parliament, "we have sent notes." You may
send other notes ; and we are told another note was
sent last Sunday or Monday from Vienna ; but while
you are sending notes the Russian forces are advancing
even beyond the principalities named, and are taking
possession of territories nearer to Constantinople. We
have had news to-day which I gladly term good news.
The news in the papers is that the proposal has been
received favourably at St. Petersburg. But we do not
know what that proposal is, and before we can express
our unqualified satisfaction we ought to know what that
proposal has been. It cannot be the proposal alluded
to last week in the House of Commons, which to Eng-
-1 end and France was satisfactory, because it only left
Vienna on the Sunday or Monday. This good news's
under advices from St. Petersburg of the 3d inst., and
therefore it is utterly impossible, the proposal leaving
Vienna on the Ist, it could have reached St. Petersburg
by the 3d. The advices from St. Petersburg of the 3d
inst. must relate to some Austrian proposition. We do
not know what that was ; but I am sure, after what has
passed, the houses of Parliament and the country will
consider no proposition satisfactory, if it be not
.a propo-
sition for the immediate evacuation of t e Turkish terrerenti-
tory. Besides this good nevss, we have news of a
quality ; for it is stated that the Russian force in the flo-
tilla collected at Ismail has taken possession of the whole
of the inner part of the river. Tkig force consigts of

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGFI begged to ask the
noble ear], if her Majesty's Government had received
any information of an arrangement by which Russia had
advanced large sums of money to Persia, and taken in
part payment the province of Tieran.

200 boats, 150 being gun-boats. So we have not only
an invasion of Moldavia and Wallachia, but while you
ara passing notes and sending couriers, we have an in-
vasion of Bulgaria, and the whole of that great r;ver,
the most important, perhaps, to the commerce of all
Europe, taken possession of on both sides by Russian
forces. These are things upon which, though wishing
to wait with the utmost patience for explanations until
convenient for the Government to make them, and wish-
ing not hastily to say one word which can excite the
public mind on the subject, I find it impossible to re-
frain from asking a question with the hope of obtaining
a direct and very clear answer. I can assure your lord-
ships I believe there is no man in either house of Par-
liament who has a more sincere abhorence of war than I
have, unless it be necessary—l do not say justifiable—
but unless it be necessary for the honour and character,
and essential to the dignity of this country. At the
same time, if we are to sacrifice our honour and charac-
ter, then I say the whole material interests of the coun-
try must suffer. (Hear, hear.) It is therefore, my lords,
that I have taken the liberty of making this statement
before asking the question of which I have given notice.
I wish to know—whether any official information has
been received by her Majesty's Government, leading
them to believe that the statement I have made is cor-
rect ; and if that is the case, what steps her Majesty's
Government have taken, or propose to take, in conse-
quence of the proceedings of the Russian authorities ?
The Earl of CLARENDON—My lords, I am afraid
it will not be in my power to give my noble friend any
answer which materially differs from that which I gave
him five days ago to the same question. I agree en-
tirely now, as I did last week, in everything which has
fallen from my noble friend with respect to the con-
sequences which will arise, both to Turkey and to
Europe, from any permanent occupation or anything re-
sembling a permanent occupation of the principalities by
Russia. But I must again inform my noble friend that
we have no official information of the character which
he has now brought before this house. lam not certainly
prepared to deny that many of the acts to which he has
alluded may have been committed by the Russian Go-
vernment. I have derived my information merely from
the same sources as my noble friend, and in that way it
is stated that there has been a sort of committee of go-
vernment formed for carrying on the business of the
principalities together with the Hospodars. But we have
no information whatever of that kind, and I am sure my
noble friend will agree with me, and I am sure your
lordships will also be of opinion, that for her Majesty's
Government to act upon reports at they arise would be
the height of rashness ; yet in no other way could we
have proceeded in carrying out the measures to which
my noble friend has adverted. My noble friend has said
he believes the Danube has been crossed, and Bulgaria
invaded. I have no reason to believe such is the fact,
but the contrary, because I have this afternoon received
letters from Galatz, dated the 28th of July, in which no
allusion whatever is made to such an occurrence. But
certainly some allusions are made, which I shall not ad-
vert to, respecting a few gun boats brought down there,
and the bellicose character of the general arrangements
at that point. We have likewise received letters from
Jassy of the 27th July, and from Bucharest of the 26th
July, and no mention is made in them of this new form
of government being established. It is perfectly true that
the presence of the Russian troops there is alluded to as
a hardship, and that the peasants are withdrawn from
their agricultural operations, and made to do a certain
amount of work ; but there is no mention of recruits
being drawn from amongst them. Mention is made of a
large amount of provisions being sent from Bessarabia,
which is Russian territory, for the use or the Russian
troops in the principalities. I therefore say, and I am sure
your lordships will agree with me, that to have acted upon
any such information as we have seen in the newspapers
would have been premature, especially as some of the re-
ports referred to last week have already proved to be in-
correct. I can only say further, that my noble friend can-
not exceed me in his abhorrence of war and in his anxiety
and desire for peace, provided that peace is an honour-
able peace. (Hear.) lam sure no other peace would
ever be for the interests of this country, or receive the
support of this great nation. (Hear.) But, my lords,
I must say that, at the point at which we are arrived in
these negotiations, when I do see reason to hope they
are tending to a satisfactory and peaceful solution, ex-
citing debates in either House of Parliament are not
likely to produce that peace, and that peculiar character
of peace which would alone be beneficial to this coun-
try. (Hear.) I must inform my noble friend that the
negotiations appear to have assumed exactly that cha-
racter which we all have most desired. (Hear.) This
question has not been left as one simply between Russia
and the Porte. It has not been left as one between
England and France, united closely for supporting Tur-
key against Russia. It has assumed a European cha-
racter. (Hear.) It is not only the Porte, it is Austria,
it is Prussia, it is France, it is England, acting together
in orderto check designs which they consider inconsistent
with the balance of power, or those territorial limits
established by previous agreement. This, I say, is a
state of things which must be satisfactory to your lord-
ships and to the country, because it is likely to lead to
a more satisfactory and more permanent conclusion.
(Hear.) I think my noble friend will not press me to
enter more into details as to the state of the negotiations
now pending between Vienna and St. Petersburgh,
when I assure him that nothing has been done at Vienna
without the consent of the French and English Govern-
ments, and that the French and English Governments
will consent to nothing which does not protect and se-
cure the independence of Turkey. (Hear.)
The Earl of MALMESBURY said it was impossible
to believe that when two countries of the importance
and power of France and England stood forward
in defence of a country like Turkey, and agreed
upon a policy of action, that negotiations would
close in anything prejudicial to the honour or credit
of either of those great nations. He had no wish to
embarrass her Majesty's Government, or to say one
word which could in any manner, the most remote, in-
terfere with the negotiations now being carried on ; but
there was a point at which the patience displayed by
that side of the house could not be further extended.
Parliament would be prorogued in the course of a week
or ten days, and yet the public knew nothing of what
had passed in the negotiations between this country and
Russia. They were perfectly well informed with respect
to the negotiations—or at least had a very fair idea of
the negotiations between France and Russia from the
circular of M. Drouyn de Lhuys, and they had been in-
formed by the same kind channel of so much of the
policy of Russia as they could judge of from the two
circulars of Count Nesselrode. At the same time, her
Majesty's Government had not uttered a word or availed
themselves of the same channels of information. lie
thought some explanation a little more detailed than
that which the noble earl had given should be laid before
Parliament before it separated for five or six months.
He saw no reason why the opinion of Parliament on
this important question should not be made known to
this country and to foreign countries, without producing
any debate which should interfere with the negotiations
new being carried on. He could only say, if he par-
ticipated in the debate, he should refrain from saying a
single syllable which might interfere with the desirable
progress of those negotiations. He trusted under the
present circumstances of the session, the noble earl would
not refuse to give the country some idea of what he ex-
pected from the Russian Government—to tell them a
little more plainly whether it was made a sine qua non
that Russia should evacuate the Turkish provinces ; be-
cause when he talked of objections to a permanent occu-
pation, it was a phrase difficult to explain ; and it might
be " permanent occupation " meant the appropriation
of those provinces by Russia. He did not think this
country would be satisfied with less than the speedy and
complete evacuation of those provinces. (Hear, hear.)
the Earl of CLARENDON—I should be very sorry
if there existed the slightest misapprehension, even for a
single day, with respect to my meaning with regard
to the Russian occupation of the Danubian provinces.
I have no hesitation now in informing my noble friend,
without waiting for any further discussion, that we look
to the immediate and complete evacuation of the Da-
nubian provinces as a sine qua non of any agreement
whatever. (Hear, hear.) With respect to any discus-
sion, or any statement which it is desirable to make, I
hope your lordships will bear in mind that the Govern-
ment have not wished to shrink from this discussion, or
to lay the fullest information before Parliament of what
has been done. I did not even ask my noble friend to
postpone the motion of which he had given notice for a
future evening. I felt that if your lordships and the
country were pleased to ask for it, you were perfectly
right and justified in so doing, and the noble marquis,
yielding to the request of the noble lord, did so inde-
pendent of the Government, and without even giving
the
t.
fe re
,Giot vwe nill bi
ee nremembered
histb iant t
tel.?
et i oGno. v e
rla hope,m ent
shrink from any discussion ; and any disposition I ever
had in favour of that discussion is great.] increased by
ita desirable prospect
loffeatrhenostesgsuioane.
the_o
fp rtohsep
close
the country should have every
it, and I can assure my noble friend,rfiolntdorwonl alheatnidhteiiihoantintkehi
pre-
vent her Majesty's Government from nothing
so, except
thosereg ar d reasonsfor
the
public which have
service—and shile influenced them—
cognised and approved by this house. (Hear, hear.)
nwagveeNeVbailenle ngirvee

The Earl of CLARENDON—In answer to the noble
earl, I have seen this report, as the noble earl has done,
and I have taken the best means I can of verifying the
facts, but as yet I have no official information on the
subject. If I may draw inferences from other informa-
tion, I should say no such arrangement has been made.
The Liberated Africans Bill, the Land Tax Redemp-
tion Bill, the Newspaper Stamp Duties Bill, and the
Consolidated Annuities (Ireland) Bill were severally
read a second time.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.

The house then went into committee on this bill.
On clause 1,
Lord ALBEMARLE said that Parliament having as-
sented to the double government, it must be taken with
all its enormous expense, but he suggested the doing
away with the Governor and Council of Madras and
Bombay, and the substitution of a lieutenant-governor.
The clause was agreed to.
On clause 2,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH proposed an amendment,
providing that if the Court of Directors should neglect
to sign any document within a given time, the signature
of an official of the Board of Control should suffice to
make such document valid.
After discussion it was agreed that the power of affix-
ing such signature should be conferred on commis-
sioners.
The clause was agreed to.
On clause 3,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH moved that the time for
the appointment of the Government directors should be
extended, in order to see what men would be appointed
by the Court, and be also proposed to alter the number
of three to that of six.
After discussion these amendments were negatived,
and the clause was agreed to, as were clauses 4 and 5.
On clause 6,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH proposed that all retired
officers of twenty years' service in India should have
votes in the election of directors. This would add about
1,250 votes, and make the whole constituency 3,000 a
number which he defied any one to canvass.
The Duke of ARGYLL reminded their lordships that
they had already agreed to carry on •the government of
India by means of the company, which consisted only of
its stockholders. Government had not proposed to
create a new constituency, which would be done by
Lord Ellenborough's amendment.
After some discussion this amendment was negatived,
and the clauses agreed to.
Clause 7 to 12 inclusive were agreed to.
On clause 13 (that imposing the director's oath),
Lord ELLENBOROUGH objected that the oath was
carlessly framed, and that although a director swore that
he would not take any emolument, he did not pled&
himself not to take any promise of emolument, and also
objected to the oath to support the Company's Govern-
ment. The last clause, "to be indifferent and equal to
all manner of persons," he also said must be perpetually
violated, and was intended to be. He prepared an oath
of his own, which would bring the parties taking it to a
sense of their real position, which was that of trustees
for the Crown, and not for a defunct company, and
which also provided against corruption.
Lord HARROWBY thought that both oaths were in-
sulting to the directors, who were called upon to give
an obligation demanded of no other functionaries.
Lord GRANVILLE proposed to re-consider the oath,
and hring is forward again on the third reading.
Clauses up to 20, inclusive, were agreed to.
On clause 21,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH expressed his hope that a
competent member of council acquained with home
business would be appointed to aid the Governor-Gene-
ral ; and he spoke strongly of the ignorance of such
business and want of habits of dispatch prevalent in
India.
The clause was agreed to.
On clause 22.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH moved the omission of the
word which was limited to a selection from the " civil"
service the Governor-General's appointment of two
members of the Legislative Council.
Lord BROUGHTON agreed that the Governor ought
not to be fettered ; that he had doubts about the work-
ing of the council, which would become a little parlia-
ment, and which would, he thought, diminish the autho-
rity of the Governor-General in the eyes of the natives.
Another danger arose from the impossibility of keeping
anything secret in India, even the most important dis-
patch, the contents of which almost invariably oozed
out as it was. If we were beginning to govern India in
a new way, the experiment could not stop where it was
now proposed that it should.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE also thought it objectionable
to place the Governor-General under the control of a
council,
Lord GRANVILLE assented to the removal of the
word " civil," which was done, and the clause was
agreed to.
Clauses up to 29 inclusive were agreed to.
On clause 30,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH moved, as an amendment,
that the Commander-in-Chief of the Forces should be
ex officio a member of the Council.
The amendment, after a brief discussion, was nega-
tived, and the clause was agreed to, as were clauses up
to 35 inclusive.
On clause 36 (referring to Haileybury College),
Lord MONTEAGLE expressed his belief that a mere
examination would prove an unsatisfactory test of
merit, and that incompetent candidates would succeed
by the process of cramming.
Lord GRANVILLE said that it would be disgrace-
ful to the college if youths who had had a special educa-
tion there could not, nine times out of ten, beat any one
who had been merely crammed.
The clause was agreed to.
Clauses up to 39 were agreed to.
Lord MONTEAGLE moved the insertion of a clause
providing that there should be no distinction between
covenanted and uncovenanted servants. He desired to
ensure the admission of natives to employment.
Lord GRANVILLE said that tha proposed clause
was framed to contend with an imaginary evil. Under
the present measures, the native-born Indian would
be admitted to employment if he could show himself
duly qualified.
The amendment was negatived, and the succeeding
clauses were agreed to up to 43 inclusive.
On 44 (the new clause relating to the salt monopoly),
Lord ELLENBOROUGH strongly condemned this
novel interference with the financial system of India.
He opposed it on principle, but also believed that it
would not produce the benefits which were anticipated
to the importer. He hoped that their lordships would
strike the clause out of the bill, India ought to be
treated as a perfectly independent country in matters of
finance.
Lord ALBEMARLE cited statistics to show the
deprivation sustained by the native in India in regard
to salt, and hoped that the Indian authorities would be
instructed by the Home Government to alleviate this
state of things.
The clause was struck out of the bill.
The remaining clauses were then agreed to, and the
house resumed.
The Crime and Outrage (Ireland) Bill was passed
through committee.
The Turnpike Acts Continuance (Ireland) Bill was
read a second time.
The other bills on the paper were advanced a stage,
and their lordships adjourned at a few minutes after
half-past twelve.

HOUSE OF COMMONS--(YESTERDAY
SUPPLY.
Mr. FUME objected to the house being forced
through committee of supply in the hurried way pro-
posed. The votes which they were asked to sanction
to-day amounted to no less a sum than 4,582,000/.
When he first directed attention to these votes they
were only between 15,0001. and 18,0001., but they had
been going on increasing ever since, an they had now
reached the sum he had now mentioned. He did not
mean to say there were not reasons for the increase, but
he thought they should adopt another course in a future
session, and submit the votes to a select committee be-
fore they were proposed to the house.
The house then went into committee of supply.
On the vote of 20,0001. for civil contingencies
Mr..IIIJME went through the items of the vote, and
urged various reductions ; and, after some discussion,
the vote was agreed to.
On the question that 550,8871. be voted to her Majesty
to defray the expenses of the. Commissariat Department,
Mr. HUME complained that nothing had been oe
to reduce the expenses of the department, although re-
ductions and abolitions had been suggested by the com-
mittee up stairs. He thought that great reductions
might be made in this vote, so far as it applied to the
I colonies.

Mr. WILSON defended the vote, and stated that
Government were doing all in their power to gradually
reduce the vote.
Sir J. GRAHAM announced that the Colonial De-
partments, connected with both the Army and Navy,
were in progress of reduction.
The vote was then agreed to.
The sum of 45,2291. was voted to her Majesty to de-
fray the expenses of the half-pay pensions of officers
attached to the Commissariat Department.
On the question that 3,5001. be voted to her Majesty
to defray the expenses of the salary of the Governor of
Jamaica,

Mr. EiIIME expressed a hope that the next session
some plan would be brought forward by which the
country would be relieved from these charges.
The vote was agreed to.
Sir J. GRAHAM in moving that 50,0001. be voted to
her Majesty to defray the expense of the new coast vo-
lunteers, said it was not intended to call out the full com-
plement of 10,000 men this year, but only to enlist 5,000
men. The vote was, consequently, for only half the

estimate.
Capt. SCOBELL complained that while bounties were
paid to militiamen and coast volunteers, no such boun-
ties were paid to able seamen on their entering the navy.
The result was that the navy contained many inferior

seamen.
Sir J. GRAHAM told the hon. and gallant member
that if he would go to Spithead on Thursday he would
find he was in error so far as his latter observation
went. (Hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
On the question that 835,212/. be voted to her Ma-
jesty, to defray the expense of the Post-office Packet
Service,
Mr. HITME took the opportunity of expressing a
hope that the whole system of our packet service would
be opeedily reformed.

1-d .—ka.7.7; ?-r,x`
Z -pow 'tz,t•if?.
.

, 0."
p
Mr. COWPER was happy to be able to hold out OW ;
prospect that such hope would be shortly realised. The N o 7
hon. gentleman said the American and the Peninsular
and Oriental contracts had been most efficiently per-
formed, but the service to the West Indies and Australia
had been exceedingly defective. The Government, how-
ever, had not acted with any harsh hostility, and the
contracts would be annulled unless the services were
more punctually performed.
Mr. HUME urged upon the Government the
necessity of encouraging the principle of ocean
penny postage. It was impolitic to continue the
existing high rate of colonial postage while emigration
continued so extensive as it had been of late years.
Mr. JOHN MACGREGOR also dwelt upon the
importance of establishing ocean penny postage, and
added his testimony to the efficiency and punctuality
with which the United States service was performed,
Mr. JAMES MACGREGOR observed that a reduc-
tion had taken place in the cost of carrying mails by
her Majesty's ships. The reduction he saw was from
77,0001. to 35,0001., and he should be glad to know
whether it was intended still further to reduce the num-
ber of mails carried by her Majesty's ships.
Mr. COWPER explained that the reduction had arisen
from the Mediteranean mails having been transferred
from her ajesty's ships to the Peninsular and Oriental
Company's vessels. If the mail service between Dover
and the continent could be performed more economically
by contract than by her Majesty's vessels, a change
would be made accordingly. He would take that oppor-
tunity of stating that Government had it in contempla-
tion to reduce the rate of postage, and to extend the
service to Australia.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the question that 200,0001. be voted to defray the
expenses of the Kafir war,
Mr. ADDERLEY thought the house ought not to
allow this vote to pass without obtaining some informa-
tion as to the settlement of the war. A very liberal
constitution had been extended to the Cape, and this
was a most opportune period for ascertaining upon
what terms the war had been settled. He had the
fullest confidence in the wisdom of the Colonial
Ministers, while he fully concurred in the consti-
tution which bad been conceded to the Cape ; but the
Minister had committed an error with regard to the
limits of territory which he had attempted to establish.
There was no more fruitful source of war than the
capricious settlement. of frontier questions, Minis-
ters and yet
would the country believe that several successive
had pursued a different frontier policy towards the
hadCa e. (Hear,
perpetualrhear.) The consequence of this
war,m ainatendnansoeo loofngtheas
exist-
ingtis frontiers by
country undertook
been e
European troops, so long would it
be involved in a war with the native Kafir tribes. He
the
therefore recommended the Government to adopt the
same policy in the Cape that was formerly applied to
our American colonies, and leave the frontiers to be de-
fended by militias raised from amongst the settlers them-
selves. He complained of the abandonment of territory
which had recently taken place in the Cape, particularly
of the Orange River territory, which had endangered the
situation of Natal, and recommended that the present
' frontier policy of the Colonial-office should be reversed.
Mr. F. PEEL said the new constitution had been
received throughout the colony as a boon, and he had
no doubt that it would prove advantageous, as well to •
the mother country as to the colony. With regard to
the question of territory which the lion. gentleman had
raised, he contended that the frontier policy of the Co-
lonial-office was both wise and safe. Much of the terri-
tory which it was proposed to be abandoned had always
been a burden to this country, while it was almost out
of its power, or the power of the settlers, to
defend it ; and the Colonial-office had therefore
sent out Sir George Clerk as a comsaissioner
to deal with the whole question in the best manner
in which his judgment, in connection with that of the
Governor, could suggest. He entirely differed with the
hon. gentleman in supposing that the abandonment of
the Orange River territory would endanger the safety of
Natal, because the latter was entirely independent of the
former, and there was a constant steam communication be-
tween Natal and Cape Town, without it being necessary to
touch in the remotest degree upon the Orange River
territory. The frequency and expense of these wars,
however, rendered it indispensably necessary that some
thing should be done to prevent their recurrence.
(Hear, hear.) During the last six years no less than
4,000,0001. had been spent upon these wars, but still
he doubted with General Cathcart, whether it was
expedient at once to withdraw the protection of the
European troops, and leave the settlers to defend the
territory themselves. That was the mistake which they
committed in 1846, and it was, therefore, intended now
to pursue the different course of leaving the troops to be
withdrawn, as the Government and settlers of the colony
found they could dispense with their assistance.
Sir DE LACY EVANS advocated the abandonment
of the Orange territory.
Mr. V. SMITH did not believe that this was the last
vote they would be asked for in connection with the
Kafir war. He approved of the abandonment of the
Orange River territory, and thought some other terri-
tories would have to be abandoned yet before the colony
would be safe.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the chairman
was directed to report progress, and the house having
resumed, he obtained leave to sit again at six o'clock.
The other twelve o'clock orders were then disposed of,
and the house rose at four o'clock.

The house re-assembled at six o'clock.
PETITIONS.
Mr. POTTER presented a petition from Limerick against
the bill for settling the question of Ministers' money in Ire-
land.
Mr. M'CA NN presented a similar petition from Drogheda.
Sir J. SHELLEY gave notice that he would to-morrow
(this day) moved for leave to bring in a bill for the estab-
lishment of a Metropolitan Board of Sewers, and for other
purposes connected therewith. He would make that mo-
tion solely for the purpose of having the bill printed before
the recess.

THE WORK OF THE SESSION.
On the motion of Mr. BROTHERTON, the following .
returns were ordered to be produced :
" Returns of the number of private bills introduced and
brought from the House of• Lords and of acts passed in the
present session, classed according to the following subjects :
Railways ; roads and bridges ; waterworks ; ports ; piers ;
harbours and docks ; canals and navigations ; churches,
chapels, and burying-grounds ; paving, lighting, and im-
proving; gaols and other county buildings; inclosures ;
small debt courts ; and all other bills and acts : Of all the
private bills which, in the present session, have been treated
as opposed bills ; specifying those which have been classi-
fied in groups by the committee of selection; together with
the names of the selected members who served on each com-
mittee; the first and also the last day of the sitting of each
committee ; the number of days on which each committee
sat ; the number of days on which each selected member
has served ; the bills the preambles of which were reported
to have been proved ; the bills the preambles of which
were reported to have been not proved ; the bills referred
back to the committee of selection, as having become un-
opposed ; and the bills withdrawn or not proceeded with
by the parties : and of all private bills which in the pre-
sent session have been referred by the committee of selec-
tion to the chairman of the committee of ways and means;
together with the names of the members who served on
each committee, the number of days on which each com-
mittee sat, and the number of days on which each member
attended.
" Divisions of the House—Return of the number of di-
visions of the House of Commons in the present session ;
stating the subject of division and the number of mem-
bers in the majority and minority, tellers included; also,
the aggregate number in the house on each division, dis-
tinguishing the divisions on public business from private,
and also the number of divisions before and after mid-
night (in continuation of Parliamentary paper No. 574, of
session 1852).
" Acts of Parliament—Return of the total number of
acts passed in each session since the year 1800, distinguish-
ing the number of public, private, and local and 'personal
acts, and the number relating to Great Britain, England,
Scotland, and Ireland, and those relating to the United
Kingdom.
"Petitions for Private Bills—Returns of all petitions
for private bills deposited in the Private Bill Office of the
House of Commons for the present session; with the name
who have deposited
and address of the agents respectively
the same. ,
_ _ _

" Public Committees—Return of the number of public
committees appointed in the present session, their sub-
jects, and the names of 1 members appointed, and their
chairman ; the number of days on which each committee
sat, and the number of days on which each member served
on each committee.
"Business of the House—Returns of the number of each
of the following motions which have been made in the
house before the order of the day and notices have been
disposed. of, or in any committee of the whole house, in the
sessions 1849, 1850, 1852, and 1852-3, viz. :-1. That this
house do now adjourn. 2. That this house, at its rising,
will adjourn till Monday next, or any future day. 3.
\
That a debate be now adjourned. 4. That a chairman of
a committee of the whole house do report progress. 5.
That the chairman do now leave the chair. And distin-
guishing in each class the number of such motions which
were withdrawn, negatived, or agreed to by the house or
the committee, and the number upon which there were
divisions.
" Sittings of the House.—Return of the number of days
on which the House of Commons sat in the prosen. fif_'B_
sion, stating, for each day, the date of the month and
_r fe
day of the week, the hour of meeting, and then 7, 4°.!
adjournment ; and the total number of hours e ; wand
the sittings of the house, and the average tuouuse
sant
each
showing the number of hours on which the b
day, and the number of hours _rowediegs (in
number of entries in each day's votes andt 1',,,,
of session
continuation of Parliamentary paper, N • o,'
1852). „st of the public bills
" Public Bills.—Alphabetical u
after Trudinght ; and then
b whom introduced,
during the present
session, stating
from the
House of Lords ;
or which have been brought
stages in this house, and dis-
tinguishing have been introduced into b
House of Commons
the dates of their several become law (in con-
No. 575, of session
tinuation of Parliamentary
1852)." TJGHBY moved for the following those whichtlriayvepsaipnecie.,
Sir H. WILLO
re-
turns : ks —Return, in continuation of the Bar-
" Savings Dan. , . .
12, o• session, 1852, giving under the
liainentary N
form of
, . ,
head Nero
1, the altered
i3alances. as rendered by the banks to the national debt
controissio
• ,• ners for 1851 and 1852 ; and, under head. No. 5,
showing in addition to the detailed statements there given,
the aggregate amount of stocks and securities sold and pur-
chased by the commissioners on account of savings banks,
for each of the years 1851 and 1852, ending on the 20th
day of November.
Savings Banks.--Return, in continuation of Parlia-
mentary paper, No. 214, of session, 1852, showing in ad-
dition to the detailed statements there given, the agre-
gate amounts under column to 1 to column 6 inclusive,
for each of the years 1851 and 1852, ending on the 20th
day of November, and giving under column 5 a detailed.
account of the incidental expenses defrayed by the na-
tional debt commissioners out of the funds of the savings
i banks."

Agreed to.
Sir G. PECHELL moved for a return of the number of
visitors admitted to see the apartments and pictures at