The Sun.
London, England, 1854-05-24 00:00:00

say when it would be brought in, as its preparation would
take some time.

SARDINIA AND ROME
Mr. WOODD wished to ask Lord J. Russell whether it
ss true, as reported, that the Government of this country
has interposed in relation to the differences between the
the Government of Sardinia and that of Rome ; and, if so,
whether there will be any objection to lay such papers as
have reference to the subject on the table of the house.
Lord J. RUSSELL said no such interposition had taken
place, and there were consequently no papers to produce.
PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS IN IRELAND.
3tr...BCM.VYER asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland,
wiggler her Majesty's Government intend to propose a
measure enabling Courts of Quarter Sessions in Ireland to
give remuneration to the sessional Crown solicitors for the
proaecution of larcenies.
Sir T, YOUNG replied that the subject was under con-
sideration but he could hold out no prospect of legislating
upon it this session.
THE- PRESTON STRIKE.
Mr. PALMER wished to ask the hon. member for Fins-
bury, whether he intended -to persevere to-night with the
following motion :—Select committee to inquire into the
couiplainte of the working and industrious classes, and
other inhabitants of the borough of Preston, as set forth
in their petition presented to this house on the 30th day
of March last, and to report their opinion to the house.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he had this morning received
a letter from Preston, which relieved him from all re-
sponsibility on the subject. The letter (which the hon.
member read) expressed a hope that as the struggle h ,d now
(leased, they hoped he (Mr. Duncombe) would waiti raw
his motion, and this he said be should now do. (Hear.)
CHURCH RATES.
Si:c W. CLAY then rose to move for leave to introduce
a bill for the entire abolition of church rates. He said it
was. admitted on all sides that the question could not re-
main in its present state. The interests of religion, of
justice, and of sound policyalike,,rezvire that it should be
finally settled. Almost. every party and section in that
house had brought forward and supported measures for the
abolition of church rates. The Government of Earl Grey,
in 1833, and the Government of Lord Melbourne, in 1837,
both endeavoured to effect a final settlement of the ques-
tion; and, more recently, bills were introduced for the
same object by Sir J. Easthope, by Mr. Trelawny, by the
hon. member for Finsbury, and by the hon. and learned
member for Tavistock. And the house had now before it
a measure proposed by the hon, member for Leicester-
shire. None of these measures had obtained the assent of
Parliament, with many of them he disagreedconsiderably,
but, at all events, theyproved that a strong sense prevailed
both within and without the walls of that house, of the ne-
cessity of some alteration in the law. (Hear, hear.) Since
ho last had the honour of bringing this question before the
house, two circumstances had occurred of no mean impor-
tance, and having no light bearing either upon the main
question itself, or upon the mode in which it should be
dealt with. He alluded to the decision of the House of
Lords in the Braintree case, and the publication of the
census report upon religious worship. (Hear, hear.) The
substantial essence and effect of the decision in the Brain-
tree case was this—the House of Lords, having had the
advice of the judges, pronounced by the mouth of Lord
Chief Justice Truro, gave judgment that the church rate
under contest was invalid, inasmuch as it had not had the
assent of the majority of the vestry. Lord Truro took oc-
casion to state that the judges were unanimous in the
opinion that a church rate, to be valid, must have the
assent of a majority of the vestry. Some difference
of opinion had previously existed among the
judges who were consulted, one or two thinking that
a majority of the vestry, by refusing a rate, would oust
themselves from their jurisdiction, and that in such a
case their would be a constructive majority in favour of the
rate. Lord Chief Justice Truro, in a judgment charac-
terised by that luminous phraseology and that power of
analysis for which the noble and learned lord was cele-
brated, completely overturned that view of the question,
and it was finally decided unanimously that to make a rate
valid it must be assented to by a majority of the vestry.
He. entreated the house to consider the full importance and
significance of that decision. It not only set at rest the
much disputed point of whether the churchwardens of
their own authority, or supported by a minority of the
vestry, could make a rate valid, but it incidentally settled
for all practical purposes two other questions which had
been much debated, namely whether church rates were to
be considered a perpetual obligation on property, or only
an obligation on property in virtue of the person, and
whether there was an obligation at common law to main-
tain the fabric of the parish church. With respect to the
first of these questions, he understood that the best autho-
rities were in favour of the rate being considered a per-
sonal tax ; while with regard to the second, the balance of
authority was supposed to favour the view that there was
no obligation at common law to maintain the fabric of the
parish church. Hitherto there had been some doubts about
the law, but now it was perfectly clear, and the conse-
quence would be that in all cases where a majority of the
vestry had the chance, they would refuse to impose a
church rate. Already that power had been exercised in a
large number of places. After all, upon whom were they
imposing these dues ? Was it on a small portion of the
people ? Was it on a fragment of the population of Eng-
land-, that made it unnecessaryand unbecoming the dignity
of the house to listen to their complaint ? Upon thathead
they had the most extraordinary disclosures, upon the
most complete authority—the census report on religious
worship. Tho population of England and Wales was, in
round numbers, 18 millions. The proportion for which,
by an elaborate process of reasoning, that report showed
they ought to provide church accommodation was 58
per cent., or above ten millions. The Established Church
had provided 14,713 churches, and accommodation for
5,317,915 persons. The nonconformist body had provided
20,390 places of worship, and accommodation for 4,891,604
persons. Therefore, of the religious portion of the people
—those who really availed themselves of places of worship
—nearly one half did not belong to the Established Church.
On the census Sunday, the attendance of all denomina-
tions at religious worship was 10,896,000, of which 5,604,000
attended places of worship belonging to the Established
Church, and 5,292,000 places of worship belonging to the
Nonconformist body. That close conformity between the
number of persons attending and the accommodation pro-
vided, west far, in his opinion, to establish the accuracy
of both calculations. Those figures proved to his mind
that the present state of the law could not be allowed to
continue. The question remained, in what mode should
the alteration be effected ? The suggestions were mani-
fold.. The first was to take the law as it now stood—to
recognise the permanent and univeral obligation to pay
church rates, and to devise some summary and efficient
process for enforcing the law. He supposed that scarcely
any one would be found to advocate that mode of dealing
with the question, though a petition to that effect had
been presented by the hon. baronet the member for the
University of Oxford (Sir W. Heathcote) from certain of
the clergy in the diocese of Exeter. The second was the
mode proposed by the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr.
Phillimore), in conformity with a proposition of the same
kind by Sir Page Wood, and also in conformity with the
very able pamphlet of the noble lord the member for King's
Lynn (Lord Stanley). That proposal was to enable Dis-
senters, on complying with certain formalities, to relieve
themselves from the liability to pay-church rates. It
had an aspect of fairness about it, but it was a very
offensive thing to insist on the declaration of any
man's religious belief, and by forcing men to define their
creed they would sharpen those differences of opinion of
which they were scarcely conscious. There were a great
many persons who went to church in the morning, and
in the evening to some nonconformist chapel. He could
not believe this mode was likely to receive the sup-
port of the house. (Hear, hear.) Then came the pro-
posal of the hon. member for Leicestershire (Mr. Packe),
which most whimsically combined all the objections to the
other modes suggested. The hon. member for whom he
had a great respect, proposed to retain a large portion of
the church rate, and enforce it by summary process, whilst
he also proposed to relieve nonconformists upon declaration
of religious belief being made before two magistrates. He
came to the last mode, and that was abolition. That was
the mode which, either by itself or accompanied by some
substitution of other sources for the maintenance of church
fabrics, would be found to be the only mode of dealing
with the question. (Hear, hear.) Whether the abolition
should be accompanied by some substitution of other funds
to provide for those precise objects to which church rates
were applied, was a question upon which arguments of
considerable weight might be used on either side, and upon
which a difference of opinion might very fairly exist. It
was a question more for churchmen than nonconformists.
The essential point for the latter was abolition. To that
they were entitled. (Hear, hear.) It was for the mem-
bers of the Church to consider whether by law they would
provide a substitute. In bringing forward the subject last
year, he suggested that some provision for those objects
might be found in the surplus funds of the Church, not
because he believed them necessary, but because there was
a difference of opinion, and some thought that, the Church
being a national establishment, some provision should be
made by law for the maintenance of established places of
worship. He concurred in the opinion expressed by the
noble lord and the hon. member, that the superfluous
Wealth of the Church should be devoted to keeping up the
fabrics of the Church. No one doubted that the surplus
revenues of the Church would be ample for the purpose ;
a.for '1 1833 Lord Althorp stated the amount applied to
"seeps
ng up the fabrics was about 250,0001, and a report of
oaltanteerend_at.e, in 1840 he believed, estimated it at about the
of divine A- at 9 the expenses attending the ministration
had been worship,sef, pew rents would be sufficient. They
the public rairAthe purpose in a great many churches,
in that
cation Was familiarised with their appli-
could be devised ;lay, and no more just principle
should pay for the hat' that persons using the church
they approve& miernerinistrations in that worship which
adopted the bill'hheear.) If,
therefore, the Govern-
mentcold
ter
en was about to propose to intro-
orduce, they
make it the law of the engraft upon it those propositions,
an additional bill for that punm'er Prgosed, and bring in
Clare, on the most mature couisZatsae was bound to de-
b.B.ldon, and a most care-
ful analysis of all the facts that
ins,heerd without the
abras to his know-
ledge., that church rates might be
mane* chance either of the ministration of or of
the maintenance of the fabrics being
were certainly very startling. During the first hTallfeofactsf
present century, more churches had been built than du tinge
200 or 300 years before. From 1801 to 1851, 2r129-
churches were erected, at an expense of 9,087,030 i. The
contributions towards those nine millions from the public
funds amounted to 1,663,429/. ; while from private bene-
factions they amounted to 7,423,5711. The proportion of
half
Public funds was 17 percent. to 83 per
factions. (Cheers.) But if they divided thecentury
into two periods of thirty and twenty years,o t,
fiveinndre
resulti century
still more surprising. From 1800 to 18 _
churches werekbuilt, [at an expense of three millions,
whereof there was contributed from public funds,
1,152,0001., and from private funds 1,848,000/. being 35
per cent. public, and 65 per cent. private contributions.
From 1830 to 1850, there were 2,029 churches built, at an
expense of 6,011,0001., whereof there was contributed
from public funds 51"1,0001., and from private funds
5,500,000/., or 8 1-3 per cont. from public funds, and 91
2-3 per cent. from private funds. (Cheers.) It appeared
that the exertions of the Church proceeded in an inverse
ratio to the help received from the State. There were two
the
grants by the State in 1817, and in 18'4 or 1825, and in
first thirty years the proportion of private and public
th contributions was 35 per cent, and 65 per cent. In
e last twenty years, when
no, grants were made by
the State the proportion was 8 1.3 g st 91 2-3 per
cent. If, again, they added to the against
sum contri-
buted in the half century to the building of churches by
private benefactions, namely seven millions, the expense
defrayed by nonconformists in the erection of 10,000
chapels at an average cost of 1,500/. each, or 15 millions, it
would give a total of 22 millions devoted to the erection
places of worship by private benefactors, as against
1,600,000/. contributed from the public funds, or 92i per
cent. against 7i per cent. (Cheers.) Such a
statement as
that almost precluded argument. (Hear, hear.) It
*hewed beyond all doubt that the members of the Church

I felt that attachment towards her which rendered it impos.
I Bible that places of public worship could fail into decay,
and that, so far from aid from the public being good, it
damped the ardour and relaxed the exertions of members
of the Church. Throughout the large towns of he king-
dom church rates had been abolished, and they were
rapidly ceasing to exist anywhere, yet there were no com-
plaints of the churches going to decay; and theinforma-
tion he had received induced him to believe that more was
being expanded on the fabrics than when the church rates
existed. In corroboration of this he could state that he
had received a letter from a respectable nonconformist gen-
tleman at Liverpool, where a church rate had been refused
by a majority of 537 persons, informing him that the con-
duct of the rector was very creditable ; that he at once
accepted the decision of the parishioners, and appealed to
his congregation for voluntary contributions every Sunday
which now averaged 151. each Sunday--a sum far more
considerable than the amount of church rates. (Hear.) It
was for these reasons that he was convinced the best mode
was to abolish church rates, and trust to the affection of
the members of the Church to provide funds for those pur-
poses to which they were applisd. It was in accordance
with these feelings that he asked leave to introduce this
bill. It consisted of two clauses, but, in reality, there
was only one, the second being a proviso to the first--the
one abolishing church rates altogether, and the other re-
serving them where theyhad been subverted to other objects,
until the charges to which they were by statute applicable
were extinguished or otherwise met. It was admitted on
all hands that the law could not remain in itspresent state
and he thought he had shown conclusively that no mode
was so desirable as entire abolition. He appealed to gen-
tlemen who were members of the Church whether the time
had not arrived to relieve themselves from the reproach of
not having sufficient earnestness and sincerity in their at-
tachment to the Church of which they professed to be
members, even to maintain the fabrics which the piety of
our ancestors had raised. Was it not time that they should
show themselves too proud, if not too honest, to call upon
those who did not use them to contribue to the expense of
maintaining these places of worship? (Hear, hear.) Was
it not time to close this perennial spring of bitter waters,
to stop this source of acrimonious feeling, and to abolish an
impost, collected in the name of religion, but opposed to
every feeling which religion inspired ? He saw no reason
why there should not be peace. Churchmen and Dissenters
both professed to belong to a religion of peace; why should
not harmony exist? The field of harvest wa4 wide enough
for all, and why should they not pursue with goodwill to-
wards each other their glorious vocation—to instruct, to
enlighten, to elevate, and to humanise? (Cheers) There
were abundant and sufficient reasons for mutual respect.
Churchmen should not forget that they owed to their Non-
conformist fellow-citizens, or rather to their predecessors,
not only religious but civil freedom. (Hear, hear.) They
should not forget that they had resisted the blandishments
of power and endured the wrongs of persecution. Noncon-
formists should not forget that the Established Church was
the firmest bulwark of the Protestant faith. They should
not forget that whatever faults they might find with it, its
existence afforded stability as well as dignity to every va-
riety of the Protestant religion. The war into which by
terrible necessity we had been driven, had had the effect of
preventing almost every project of amelioration, but he
would fain hope that this measure would pass. The hon.
gentleman concluded by moving for leave to introduce the
bill.

Mr. PETO, in seconding the motion, expressed his gra-
tification that it should have been introduced by a mem-
ber of the Church of England. (Hear.) It had been looked
upon too much as a dissenting question. It was really as
much a question for the members of the Established Church
as for members of the nonconformist body. They had
heard to what a great extent churches had been built and
public worship carried on within them by voluntary con-
tributions, and in many of the contests the refusal of the
rate had been decided by church votes. For these reasons
it was eminently worthy the consideration of the Church
of England, whether they would allow this root of bitter.
ness to remain promoting discontent and division among
themselves. (Hear.) With regard to noncomformists they
had strong and conscientious objections, arising from be-
lief in the voluntary nature of every religious exercise, and
in the impropriety of forcing parties to support a religious
service which they disapproved. He believed it could be
shown that the assessment was not necessary for the sup-
port of the edifices used in religious worship, and it was
itself impracticable. They need only look to the census
returns to satisfy themselves that with a body which had
shown such a determination as to contribute a sum not
exceeding seven millions of money for the erection of
churches within the last half century, it was not at all
likely they would allow those churches to fall into decay.
The Dissenters had 20,390 places of worship entirely sup-
ported by voluntary contributions, and in those centres of
activity and intelligence, Lancashire and Yorkshire, great
results were accomplished entirely by voluntary efforts.
(Hear, hear.) He might refer also to what Scotland had
done. The Free Church of that country, when thrown
upon her own resources, had provided an amount for the
erection and support of places of worship which had excited
the astonishment of the nation and the age. It had been
often said that it was only in the towns and in the manu-
facturing districts that any question with respect to
church rates arose—that the majority of the rural die-
tries were practically Church of England, and that
therefore, with respect to them, no hardship existed.
The statistics of the Independents, of the Baptists,
and of the Wesleyans—showing the relative numbers
of sittings in connection with each denomination in
the towns and in the rural districts—contradicted this as-
sumption; and the fact that some of the severest contests
which had taken place with respect to church rates had
arisen in rural districts, was a proof that the feeling there
was as strong as in the towns. He must say, with respect
to the bill introduced by the hon. member for Leicester-
shire (Mr. Packe), that he believed they were only prolong-
ing feelings of bitterness, and preventing the fair and final
settlement of the question 'by the introduction of these half
measures. (Hear, hear.) He believed that justice required
that church rates should be totally abolished, and that the
Church of England could do nothing more effectually to
promote peace than by meeting this question in a fair and
liberal spirit, and by showing a proper reliance on her own
principles. (Hear, hear.) He knew that Dissenters were
sometimes charged with entertaining feelings of bitterness
towards the Church. He disclaimed on his part, as a
Nonconformist, all such feelings. (Hear, hear.) Although
he was himself a Dissenter, no member of that house would
rejoice more than himself to see the Church of England
prosper—to see her reformed within herself—to see the
immense revenues in her possession brought to bear for the
benefit of the country, and to see her relieved of the scan-
dal which was at this moment caused by the incomes en-
joyed by her bishops and by the higher orders of her
clergy, and by the lax state of morality which prevailed in
our cathedral towns. (Hear, hear ) He believed that if
half the money which was expended on our cathedral esta-
blishments were devoted to City missions, to the augmen-
tation of the incomes of the poorer clergy, and to the
placing of clergymen where none at present existed, the
Church of England would have a much stronger hold on
the feelings and affections of the people of England ; and
the Dissenters, so far from regretting, would most heartily
rejoice to see it, because by such means the cause of true
religion would be advanced, and no interest whatever,
with respect to the Church, would be sacrificed.
(Hear, hear.) Ho knew it was sometimes said of them
that they wished to sacrifice the prizes of the Church.
(Hear, hear.) But what should be the prizes of the Church ?
If he knew anything whatever of the obligations of a Chris-
tian man, he should rank first among those obligations the
duty of living, as far as he possibly could, according to the
revealed will of God ; and if ho were told that it was a
"prize" for a clergyman to obtain an income of some
15,000/. or 20,0001. a-year, when 5,0001. would be sufficient
to maintain him in any position of life which it was neces-
sary for him to fill, he must reply that he believed those
incomes were a source of great discomfort in the Church
itself, and were perfectly unnecessary. In conclusion, the
hon. member repeated his conviction that such reforms as
he had indicated, and the dealing with this question of
church rates in the only way in which it could be dealt
with satisfactorily, would tend to strengthen the Church
and to extend her influence, as well as to promote peace
and harmony and goodwill throughout the entire com-
munity.
Mr. WIGRAM agreed with the hon. members who had
made and seconded this motion, that the time had come
when it was a matter of the utmost importance, and indeed
of absolute necessity, that some measures should be passed
upon the subject of church rates. (Hear, hear.) He said
so because it must be admitted that in some districts of
the country—although he hoped that those districts were
neither many nor extensive—but certainly in some dis-
tricts church rates had been the cause of much bitterness,
and of much unkindly feeling. (Hear, hear.) He was
persuaded, however, that this had had its origin, not in
the subject of church rates generally, so much as in the
uncertainty of the law. (Hear, hear.) It was because for
a long series of years theobligation to paychurch rates had
been a matter of uncertainty that attempts had been made
to elude them. (Hear, hear, and oh, oh.) He was per-
suaded that if the law upon the subject of the obligation
to pay had been as clear as in the case of tithes, they
would have had no more contests with respect to the pay-
ment of church rates than they had had with respect to
tithes. (Oh, oh.) This was his most sincere belief;
nor could he see upon what ground a valid objection
to pay church rates could possibly be made. He hoped the
house would not consent to the introduction of this bill,
which was a bill not for the substitution of any other
mode for that which had so long been recognised, but for
the simple and entire abolition of the provision which had
so long existed in this country for the maintenance of our
parish churches. (Hear, hear.) He doubted whether the
expectation which the hon. member had held out, that, in
the event of church rates being abolished, other means
would be voluntarily provided out of which the churches
might be maintained, would be realised in the result. Re-
ference had been made to what the Church of England had

done in the erection of churches, and in providing clergy-
men in those parts of the country in which they were most
urgently required. (Haar.) Those only who bad engaged
in such undertakings could appreciate the difficulties which
were experienced, and the efforts which were necessary to
surmount them. To what extent, then, would those diffi-
culties be increased if they called upon the friends of the
Church to supply the means for the accomplishment of
those objects which were now provided for by church
rates? (Hear.) There could be no doubt that in that

case the energies of the Church of England would be ham-
pered, and her expansion impeded to a very considerable
extent. The right hon. baronet had very truly said that
the law on the subject of church rates had been very fully
and carefully considered in the Braintree case, which was
decided in the last session of Parliament ; but if they would
refer to that case they would find that the judges who had
honeatrheditwere all agreed in the opinion that the obligation
owners and occupiers of lands and houses in this
coungtfitioz;::place and uphold the parish church was an
obli
just as clearly law, which was just as binding and
county bridgeys recognised as the obligation to repair
tion ? It waas
this country
to the rich. (Hears
sent to the abro
had been made from lolloofn:
hi(Hear, hear.) What was that obliga-
oemaintain and uphold in every parish in
this country, without the sul,;
vision for it? (Hear, bear.
oadon,ft.o,,,pue.cnh toathe poor as well as
~,atioatri, hear.) Would the house con-
ground assigned for the adoption of such ha
Lear.) It was said,
maintenance of our churches were provision, which
njtty 1)3, the common law of
)s iiiition of any other pro-
d heard no valid
called
dbdutions for the
indeed, that such
a'
course.
whereas all could not participate in tel (Hear,
for from all,
the fact was that they were not, established vfoarattilig" ; but
benefit
of any particular sect. (Hear, hear, hear.) They
established for the benefit of the country, and „eerye wereo
to all those who could 110 would use them. (Hear, hear.)pe
Parliament, representing the the whole people of the
country, Dissenters as well as Churchmen, exercised over
them a real and effective control ; and laws were continu-
ally introduced into that house with respect to them.
(Hear, hear.) It was not the fact that the whole people
could not use them ; for the doctrines of the Church of
England were such that the great mass and body of the
people could with the utmost propriety and conscientious-
ness, and they only did not do so because, from slight dif-
ferences upon particular religious doctrines, a portion of
thew preferred, to provide other places of worship for 1