The Sun.
London, England, 1853-08-02 00:00:00

CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.

Lord J. RUSSELL, in moving that the house do go
into committee upon this bill, said the subject
of Charitable Trusts had for a long period en-
gaged the attention of Parliament. In 1816 Lord
Brougham brought it prominently before Parlia-
ment, and from that year up till now, he thought
the usual time had elapsed before which questions of
great public interest like the present were generally
brought to a satisfactory conclusion. In 1843 a mea-
sure was brought in by Sir Frederick Pollock, and other
bills had been repeatedly introduced since then—one by
the Government over which he presided, and another
by Sir Frederick Thesiger, the late Attorney-General.
In the present session the Government again took up
the subject, and they introduced into the other house of
Parliament the bill which was now before the house.
It was referred to a select committee of their lordships,
and that committee paid great attention to the subject,
and went over the whole of the provisions of the bill.
Their opinion was that the question of the superintend-
ence and general administration of these charities should
be altogether separated from political considerations, or
the interests of any particular party, and that they con-
sidered that the bill would attain that object. They
suggested that the commissioners who were to be named
by the Crown, and were to have the general admi-
nistration of charities, should hold office during
good behaviour, and it appeared to him that
the great object which they all had in view
might be accomplished in that manner. There were
some alterations which he intended to propose in com-
mittee. Though there were three commissioners, with
salaries, named in the bill, it was very probable that
after a time the whole number of three would not be
required • and therefore he proposed to add a clause at
the end of the bill, which would enable the Government,
after a certain time, to allow one of the appointments to
cease and determine. According to the bill as it now
stood, one of the commissioners would not be required
to possess legal qualifications. He was sorry to find
that Roman Catholic charities could not be placed under
the bill without some special provision, as it was likely
that its operation might affect their existence. Though
many of them were very useful charities, and such as he
was sure the house would wish to continue, yet unless
great care was taken they might be entirely overthrown
and destroyed by the bill. He would therefore propose
that these charities should be omitted ; but he did not
mean that they should be permanently omitted,
because he believed that the Roman Catholics would
derive great benefit by having a superintending body
over their charities like that which was establised by
the bill ; but in order to include them, a separate bill
and separate provisions, which would give rise to a great
deal of discussion, would be required.
The house then went into committee upon the bill.
On clause 10.

Sir
shall—" Plir
extendoTviel ora lGwbLae scS,Ol nn
thatsotvi construed
d he e
dnt o
ttoh f wig a
i lhyenrt herein nr an
any ce ondtmai
charity enne td:
during the life of the founder or donor thereof."
%The ATTORNEY-GENERAL objected to the
amendment, and observed that what the hon. gentle-
man required could be easily accomplished by the founder
or donor introducing a special clause into his deed.
Sir F. THESIGER also opposed the amendment,
believing that, if introduced into the bill, it would give
rise to considerable litigation.
After a short discussion, the amendment was with-
drawn, and the clause agreed to.
On clauses 11 and 12 amendments were proposed by
Captain SCOBELL ; but not meeting the approval of the

lawyers on either side of the house, they were subse-
quently withdrawn.
The clauses were then agreed to, as were also, with
more or less discussion, the clauses up to clause 42.

Clause 43 was withdrawn.
On clause 44,
Mr. MIALL moved its omission on the ground that
it gave no new power or rights to any one, and was,
therefore, unnecessary.
Mr. HADFIELD seconded the motion on the further
ground that this clause made distinctions between dif-
ferent sects and denominations, and he thought the time
had arrived when all such distinctions should be re-
nounced. . .

Lord J. RUSSELL denied that the principle which
the hon. gentleman had enunciated would be furthered by
the omission of the clause in question, and opposed the
motion.

On a division the numbers were—
For the omission of the clause
Against it
Majority —32
The clause was then agreed to, as were also the suc-
ceeding ones up to clause 51.
On clause 52 there arose a discussion, which chiefly
turned upon the powers proposed to be granted to the
commissioners under this bill, with regard to making
new schemes for the application of charities.
Mr. HENLEY moved the omission of words in the
clause granting the above powers, which the right hon.
gentleman contended were far more extensive than those
now vested in the Court of Chancery, or any tribunal
other than Parliament itself.

. 39

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL opposed the amend-
ment, and thought that the right hon. gentleman had
misapprehended the scope and object of the clause.
Sir F. THESIGER was decidedly in favour of the
amendment, and averse to entrusting any board of com-
missioners with such extravagant and unprecedented

powers.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL asserted the power of
conversion was already exercised, though in an irregular
manner, through the instrumentality of the Court of
Chancery.
After a few further remarks from Mr. HEYWARD and
Mr. NEWDEGATE,

Lord J. RUSSELL explained that the object of the
clause was one the house would approve of. It was this,
where the commissioners found that a charity was being
distributed in a manner which did no good, the whole
case should be brought before Parliament with a view to
a better disposition of the funds.

The amendment was negatived without a division, and
the clause was agreed to, as were also the succeeding
clauses up to 59 inclusive.
On clause 60,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he proposed to insert here
the exemption in favour of the Roman Catholic charities
to which he had already referred. His own opinion was
that this bill ought to apply to Roman charities ; but,
before it could be made to do so there must be an alte-
ration in the law relating to superstitious uses in order
that the Roman Catholic religion and worship might be
legalised, so far as charities were concerned. It was too
late this session to bring in such a measure, and, there-
fore, with the view to legislation on this subject next
session, he proposed to insert words in this clause, to
exempt Roman Catholic charities from the operation of
this bill.

Mr. HADFIELD protested that many charities in
this country had no reference to sect or religion, and
instead of their being called upon to make exemptions
in favour of any one cass of religionists, the committee
ought to be considering a law which should place all
charities on the same footing, so far as the law was con-
cerned. At present, the Mortmain Law was so compli-
cated and uncertain, that it was almost impossible to
prepare a charitable trust deed so as to come within the
requirements of the law, and he thought these legal
difficulties ought to be immediately removed.
Mr. HENLEY put it to the noble lord whether it
would not be better to reserve this amendment for dis-

cussion in the bringing up the report.
Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to this course,
and the amendment was withdrawn, notice being given
that it would be renewed in the report in the shape of a
clause.
The remaining clauses of the bill were then agreed to.
On the question that the preamble be agreed to,
Sir F. THESIGER congratulated the Government
upon there being now a prospect of passing a Charitable
Trust Bill after a 30 years' agitation of the subject.
The preamble was then agreed to, and the house
resumed.
The Chairman reported progress, and the report was
ordered to be received on Thursday.
NAVAL COAST VOLUNTEERS BILL.

This bill as amended was considered, and ordered to
be read a third time to-morrow.
The house rose at four p'clock.
The house resumed *six o'clock, and was
(LEFT SITTING.)

THE LONDON GAZETTE.
(THIS EVENING.)
FOREIGN-OFFICE, JULY 30.
The Queen has been pleased to approve of Mr. Nathaniel
Hawthorne as Consul at Liverpool for the United States
of America.