The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-09 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 9, 1853.

other two. The second proposal would give him for his
1001., 110/. 2A per cent stock, redeemable at 110/. at the
end of 40 years, with 2/. 15s. per annum meantime. At
the end of 40 years he would be possessed of a capital
of 110/. (The Chancellor of the Exchequer intimated
dissent.) He was to have " the sum of 1101. in a new
stock of 2i per cent. annuities." He would bo possessed
of 1101. capital. (A. Member.--" Stock.") A debt
of 110/. would be due to him from the Go7e_a•
meat as much as the 1001, was now due. (A member
-" No.") Really if he had any organs of understanding,
he (Sir F. Kelly) took it so ; the Government could not
relieve itself from the debt without paying 1101. (Hear,
hear.) And was there anything visionary- was it taking
an exaggerated view of the possibilities of the future to
suppose, looking to the influx of gold-that at the end of
-the 40 years it might be to the interest of the Government
to pay off even a per cent. stock by payment of 110/. ?
(Hoar, hear.) What was the next of these proposals? To
give an Exchequer bond for 100/., with 21. 15s. interest
per annum interest for 10 years, or some less period that
the Government might determine, and 21. 10s. for the rest
of the 40 years ; and at the end of the 40 years this person
would have his stock, in the shape of a Treasury bond of
1001. In the one case he would have 21. 15s. for 40 years,
and then be the holder of 1101. stock ; and in the other
case he would have 21. 15s. for 10 years, and 21. 10s. for
the next 30, and then be the holder of only 1001. stock,
liable to be paid off at that amount : would the hon. gen-
tleman pretend that it was anything but a delusion to say
here was an option ? What man in his senses would pause
between the two? (Hear.) What was the remaining pro-
posal?
,To give for the 1001. 82/. 10s., 3. per cent. stock
guaranteed against reduction for 40 years, and yielding
therefore 21. 17s. 9d. for 40 years, but liable then to be
paid off at 82/. 103., icing 271. less than if he took 1101. 21
per cents., producing 21. 15s. What was the compensation
for his being entitled to 271. 10s. less under this proposal
than under the other at the end of 40 years ? Just 2s. 9d.
more interest per annum during the 40 years. Was 2s. 9d.
a-year for 40 years' purchase-money for 271. 10s. at the end
of that time ? (Hear.) Would it represent even in per-
petuity more than 51. or 61.? (Hear.) Were these two
proposals as like as two peas? (Hear.) This was a sub-
ject of which those of his profession rarely presumed to
address the house ; but it had appeared to him (Sir F.
Kelly) not so much a matter of financial policy as a simple
question of arithmetic-(hear)-and he believed he had
not used too strong a term when he said it was a delusion
to hold this out as an option presenting three equiva-
lents, or something approaching to three equivalents.
Was it not absolutely certain that any one would
accept the second proposal and reject the others? (Hear,
hear.) With the change which had now been made
in the resolutions, was it fair to press the house to
pronounce on them that night? If anything could
render the question more important, he might almost,
say more alarming in its aspect, it was that the Go-
vernment were seeking the sanction of the house to
that which was admitted to be an entirely new opera-
tion-(hear)-unexampled in its extent-(hear)-and if
ever there was a time when the house should proceed to
the consideration of such measures with caution and the
utmost deliberation, it was when we were not in a settled
and permanent financial condition, but when the finances
of this and every country were in a state of transition,
owing to the unprecedented influx of gold-(hear)-a time
that should be the very last when a Goverment should
seek to tie up the hands of the State for a period of no less
than 40 years. (Hear.)
Mr.WILSON observed that the hon. and learned gentle-
man could not conceive that a man with 100/. to invest
would accept the alternative of an Exchequer bond. He
might see that a fallacy must lurk in his statement, because
it was found as a fact that with Consols at par there were
abundance of people ready to invest in Exchequer-bills, not
at 21. 155., but at 11.10 s. per cent. The hon. and learned
gentleman overlooked the character of the security. Stock,
redeemable only at the option of the Government, was
hedged round by a great number of inconveniences and
costs in its transmission, while an Exchequer bill passed
from hand to hand. The hon. and learned gentleman over-
looked, therefore, in regard to one of the securities compared,
an advantage which would give these Exchequer bonds an
enormous value in the eyes of bankers and insurance-
offices, and those who had temporary investments to make.
Of so great value was that convenience, when stated in
pounds, shillings, and pence, that the Government had
been able at the very moment the Bank of England was
raising its rate of interest, and Cor sols were below par, to
convert 9,000,0001. sterling. of Exchequer-bills, bearing inte-
rest at per cent., into Exchequer-bills bearing interest
at 1i per cent. Referring to the hon. and learned gentle-
man's remark on an increase of the capital of the public
debt, he begged to say that he entirely concurred in the
observation that nothing presented the management of the
public debt and of public affairs in so lamentable an as-
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tirely concurred in thinking it undesirable, without some
decided advantage, to add to the nominal amount of the
debt. Posterity, however, would not be disadvantaged by
the arrangement which was proposed. It was proposed to
limit the 3 per cents. to be dealt with to 30,000,0001. In-
stead of 3 per cent. that would be taken at 2 per cent.
There was a saving of per cent. on that transaction at
once, of 75,000/. per annum. Supposing they did not
consume the saving, but made it go as a payment to an
additional amount of capital, the effect would be that
the 75,000/. per annum saved for forty years would
amount to 3,000,000/. ; so that, in a saving of
per cent. without interest, the total amount would be
exactly equivalent to the rate at which the national debt
would be increased. [Mr. Hume.-" You eat your cake."]
He had got a sum to fund for the benefit of posterity 40
years hence, being exactly equivalent to the amount
which he added to the nominal amount of the debt. But
he had got more. He had got compound interest on this
annual sum of 75,000,000/. for 40 years. He should not
enter further on the subject, as he should have it in his
power to discuss it on future opportunities.
Mr. SPOONER thought the argument of the hon. mem-
ber for Westbury was unintelligible, except in so far as it
showed that the result of the proposed operation would be to
leave the country exactly in the same position in which it was
at present. With respect to the alterations in two of the reso-
lutions, those alterations had not beenZso explained by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer as to be understood. The
plan in the original resolutions, it is now said, was not the
plan ; but it was incumbent on the right hon. gentleman
to have well considered the resolutions in the first instance.
Agreeing that delay was dangerous, he (Mr. Spooner)
thought that the attempt should not be made to proceed
with a speed incompatible with the requirements of jus-
tice; and justice could not be done if full consideration
were not given to the subject. He was by no means pre-
pared to reject the whole plan. Much of it he was in-
clined to approve ; but if he were asked that night to say
"Ay" or "No," he should say "No," because he would
not commit himself at the moment to a proposition which
was open to the objections that had been stated.
Mr. JOHN M'GREGOR supported the proposition
made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The benefit of
dealing as proposed with Treasury bonds to the amount of
30,000,0001. would extend to every country of Europe.
Every banking establishing would avail itself of them, and
they would be found most convenient for investment.
The real question was, whether you could reduce the annual
amount to be paid as interest for the public debt. He
was convinced that out of doors the resolutions would give
the utmost satisfaction, and that the sooner the committee
assented to them the better.

Mr. WILKINSON was understood to express his con-
currence in some of the objections stated by the hon. and
learned member for East Suffolk. Considering the dif-
ference of opinion which existed with respect to portions
of the comprehensive scheme proposed by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, be thought that some delay should take
place to give an opportunity for examining the proposition
to more advantage. _

Mr. LAING hoped the right hon. gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would not accede to the invitations
which had been thrown out. The question had been fully
discussed out of doors, and the explanations given to-night
of the amended resolution removed the only serious ob-
jection that had been felt to a proposal which, upon
the whole, had been well received. Objections were at
first felt to a scheme which appeared likely to increase
the national debt by 50,000,0001., but that argument
appeared to him to have been greatly overstated. Men of
business now fully understood the proposal, and he trusted
it would be agreed to by the house. (Hear.)
The question was then put, that the first resolution be
agreed to.
Mr. DISRAELI hoped the committee would hear from
the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it was not his inten-
tion to proceed any further to night.
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think it would be at all con-
venient that the Committee should not go on to affirm the
resolutions to-night. It seemed of great importance, now
that the resolutions had been so much discussed, that the
committee should so far decide upon the resolutions as to
permit the bill to be brought in, and that was the proposi-
tion now before the house. The question was, whether
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, having fully and clearly
stated his plans, should be permitted to bring in his bill.
(Hear.) It would be very disadvantageous to postpone the
decision of that question until another evening. A post-
ponement might have taken place, if hon. gentlemen who
had doubts and objections to the plan had said that they
did not wish to discuss it, and had asked for delay. But
the contrary of that course had been pursued. Every
gentleman who felt objections to the plan had stated them
in the strongest manner. They had gone through every-
thing that could be said against it—(" No, no," from the
Opposition benches")—and some of the objections had been
stated with a great deal of bitterness, which was not usually
displayed on such questions. If hon. gentleman had pro-
posed in the first instance to postpone the discussion, he
should have had no objection, but he now saw very great
objections to delay.
Mr. DISRAELI said, the bitterness to which the noble
lord had adverted must have been displayed when he went
to dinner, for he had heard none of it. (A laugh.) The
question then arose on which side of the house it had been
manifested, for hon. members had Opposed the scheme on
both sides of the house, and he must assume that the bit-
terness had not been displayed by any of his friends. He
did not wish to enter into a lengthened discussion to-
night, and he admitted there was an understanding with
the Chancellor of the Exchequer that no discussion should
take place to-night. But, as it was only yesterday that the
original resolutions were circulated, and as he had not seen
the important alteration made by the right hon. gentleman
until the moment he entered the house, he did not think it
manifested great bitterness to appeal for further time for
discussing the resolutions. (Hear, hear.) If all the com-
mittee were now asked to agree to was that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer should be allowed to bring in a bill, that
removed many of his objections. But if it were to go forth
to the country that the House of Commons had solemnly
assented to the proposal of the right hon. gentleman, then
it would be his duty to call for a division, to show the
' comparatively small number of members present at that
moment. He would, however, take the word of the noble
lord, that the committee were only asked to express an opi-
nion now that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be
.permitted to bring
,in his bill, and that proposal he should
not oppose. The right hon. member for Coventry (Mr.
Ellice) said that it was the business of the House of Com-
mons always to facilitate the progress of Government busi-
ness. That was a doctrine no doubt very agreeable to the
Treasury benches, and the house would be disposed to
comply with that rule ; but in being amiable and avoid-
ing displays of bitterness, they must not lose the opportu-
nity of discussing subjects of great importance, upon
which, as it seemed, no mistake or difference of opinion
could possibly arise among men of business. The hon. gen-
tleman who had spoken last seemed to treat this as a ques-
tion upon which men of business could not have two7olpi-
nions. But, speaking their views, he had objected to the
increase of the debt which would have followed from adopt-
ing the second proposition of the original resolution, while
the Secretary of the Treasury (Mr. Wilson) said that no in-
crease of the permanent debt of the country could have
taken place under that proposal, but rather a diminution—
(a laugh)—and that, if it had remained as it had been ori-
iinallyframed, instead of causing an increase of 50,000,600/.
the debt, as apprehended by men of business, there
would have been a proportionate diminution.
Mr, LAING. said he bath stated that the original resoln•