The Sun.
London, England, 1838-08-15 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 15, 1838,

live in uncomfortable houses. In the first place, the price of
1 thour in this country is rendered dear by the dearness of bread.
And in the second place, it is not to be expected (although I
know there is some doubt on the working of that proposition)
that they will take our manufactures when we will not take
their timber in return. How can you export your manufac-
tures to the Baltic when you won't take their timber and
grain in return ? Well, the price of the quartern loaf has
risen from 71d. to 11d. What is the price of the quartern
loaf at Amsterdam and Antwerp? Why it is 52 per cent
cheaper. It is not very comfortable for the people of England
to know that owing to the Corn-laws they are eating bread
52 per cent. dearer than the Amsterdam and Antwerp people ;
and there is a tax paid—taking the consumption of this
country at 22,000,000—there is a tax paid by the people of this
country from 17,500,0001. to 18,000,0001. a year—another
tribute to that exceedingly vicious system. There is Dantzie,
Riga, Koningsberg—you can't trade with those towns ; and
then not only do you stunt your manufactures, by shutting up
your exportation for want of an equivalent return ; but you
raise the price of labour, by raising the price of the best ar-
ticle of food in this country, which prevents you entering into
competition with the French and Flemish manufacturers. They
have cheaper labour, because they have cheaper bread. So
that you are burning the candle, as it were, at both ends —( A
laugh)—vou are refusing to take the cheaper produce of those
countries on the one hand, and on the other, by this suicidal species
of policy, you invite foreign manufacturers to enter into compe-
tition with you, with the immense advantage of cheaper bread,
and consequently of cheaper labour. That is one solution of the
phenomenon justly deplored by my Noble and Learned Friend
and Myself. In both ways you are contracting and ruining your
own trade. My Lords, I was greatly surprised—l was mor-
tified to hear the Noble Viscount (Melbourne), upon the last
occasion that this subject was before your Lordships, state in a
very peremptory manner that his Government would not take
the subject of the Corn-laws into their consideration. There
is not a more gross or inexcusable fallacy than to suppose that
because the law states that, when the price of grain in Eng-
land reaches 733., the entrance of foreign grain is no longer pro-
hibited ; the price in the English market being now up to 705.,
an advance of 3s. aquarter more in the price will open the ports
to the entrance of foreign grain. This is a downright fallacy.
What trader would ever venture into the corn trade when he
knows that he is at the mercy of the winds and the waves, and
that no man can calculate the prices at the precise time of arri-
val ? No man can tell w hen the ports will open or when they will
shut—no man can tell. For example; he might send out his
ship, on speculation, when the price was 735.; but before the
wind and the waves would allow his ship tocome home with the
grain he finds the price has fallen below 735., and the ports
are shut ; consequently his ship would be obliged to return to
the Baltic with the grain. And thus, in consequence of the
existing law, the corn trade is a gambling trade—an uncertain
trade; and respectable men are very loath and very unwilling
to enter into the corn trade, because they know the law has
filled it with uncertainty and incentives to gambling spe-
culation, no man knowing how long the parts will
remain open when once they are so. My Lords,
omluintoudegoliln,
t to apologise to your Lordships for having dwelt so
long on this subject, and at this late period of the Session.
It is, however, one that always occupies my attention. With-
any good to the landlord, it is, as a Noble Friend of
(Earl Fi.zwilliam) has said—the only person with whom
I agree in this House on this subject, and who is the greatest
landlord in England or Ireland—it is a gross delusion to sup-
pose that any thing could be so good for the landlord as to
have a fixed duty, which would cause corn always to be at a
steady price. It would be better for the country—it would
be as good for the producer, in my opinion, as it would
be good for the consumer. My Lords, these are the obser-
vations
of
camtlab,l3uslt
Tecet ihsrhoto
on,ui
s snsppcioaocoot.whichniffnnnnk ativeye er:
lle.
eeddeNenveo
intocetnHeb: ms;eieaLdel dew: it
NmGy dutyT o
N to
said make
that
undoubtedly
this
no-
thing could be more important than the state of our com-
mercialTdrvadiieshstndcietoruyonats
hths htiaoaooetdfpnr
topics
colhujosfaentf
ntew intHi
hlal
suchoftoi
ounssuegsoan:
sdlmanvltt.eataehieteaaertiNr:
m
sOhspotueeblewrleheisiotshddaoni
ustialwaysdo_nt
ricLoeotaranrn-nleladewrseLqaounrdedsthitoahnde mooted on that night respecting their
iroftimtrbaeffiret,riatdew.as Tahgeiuresttiimonbeor
ftrandaevigwaa-s
tion and of colonial policy. As to our Corn-laws, there were
considerations to which the Noble and Learned Lord had
taken very good care not to allude. He had not alluded to
the influence of the Corn-laws upon Ireland—(Hear)—nor
yet upon the security which the country thereby enjoyed of
obtaining a regular supply of food. If this country was
dependent on the Baltic for the supply of its food, we should
have in a short time Russia levying a tax upon it as it had
done before. Our foreign policy was never brought before
that House but they were met by somebody either with the
Ccrn-laws or the timber trade. He agreed with the Noble
and Learned Lord in the propriety of avoiding all threats
and all appearance of forcing our commerce on our alliances
or foreign nations. However, he attributed the state of our
commercial relations at present to the extreme weakness of
our naval establishments.—( Hear, hear.) He disapprove
of some expeditions which had been made not long since by
this country, but he complained that our naval establishment
was too weak to give protection to the extensive commerce
of our country, and to our ships, which visit every quarter of
the globe. He blamed not the Noble Lord at the head of

the Admiralty for this weak state of our navy, but he blamed
dthose who
e eall were
our
bays endeavouring
, is
hmen ts.
_(iie a
rt
establishments.—(Hear,
reducehe ar. t )
He
teo o low a
d idnot
attach much importance to the question between the French
and the Mexican Governments. The matter in dispute was
altogether not more than 150,0001. He had some doubt
whether it would not be worth the while of the great Mex-
ican mineholders to pay the sum at once, and relieve the
country from the blockade. The French Government had
thought proper to declare war against Mexico to recover the
demand. He disputed not their right to do so, but he thought
it was the duty of the Ministers of this country to turn their
serious attention to the matter, and to endeavour, by every
description of amicable office, to put an end to the dispute.
He desired to have an amicable intercourse in that quarter,
but to have an amicable intercourse he thought that it was
necessary that this country should be on an equality in point
of strength with other Powers. He did not wish that we
should be proposing an amicable intercourse to those who
may turn round on us and say that we had not a right to
interfere, that we had not as much as a cockboat on the
waters.
There should be a force there to enable the com-
mander of her Majesty's ships to watch what was going for-
ward. He regretted that their navy had been reduced too
low to enable them to give protection to her Majesty's sub-
jects. He doubted now that if he could induce the Govern-
ment to !ook these questions in the face, and to adopt the
lane of conduct which he recommended, this country would
sc on get out of all such petty difficulties as the blockade of

Mexico.
The Earl of MINTO said that he agreed with the Noble
Duke that at times a disposition had existed to reduce too
far the strength of our establishments, but he believed that
such a desire existed no longer. For that reason, if the
amount of our naval force was not sufficient for the public
service, he should take blame to himself, as he did not be-
lieve that there would be any difficulty in getting a larger
vote, if necessary, to make up a larger amount of force.
We have new from seventeen to eighteen sail of the line in
commission, and of that a considerable part is immediately
disposable. Another advantage we also have is that arrange-
ments have been made by which a large additional force
could be made up within a very short time whenever a necessity
for them may arise. On the eastern side of America, though
we may not have force sufficient to contend with any European
power, yet we have a larger force there than any European
power at present has. We could easily send out three or four
more sail of the line if they were required. As to the blockade
there could be no doubt of its legality. It was not necessary
to establish the legality of the blockade that previous notice
should be given. The naval force of the country is much
larger than it has been for many years, and there would not
be found the least difficulty in sending out a much larger
force in a short period.
rrhein Earlthe of iN
The Duke of WELLINGTON was happy to hear the
statement made by the Noble Earl ; but he had heard that the
ships
St. Lawrence neseaiwderte
were but
Noble
elf
Dukema meant nned
that the.
vessels in the St. Lawrence were but half armed and manned.
The fact was, some of their guns were taken out to enable
them to carry troops, and the men were in proportion to the
guns. It was also preferred to send out ships of the line
short of their full compliment of guns and men to sending out
large frigates.
Lord BROUGHAM agreed with the Noble Duke in re-
commending his
thteryadwo.erelsauraedtdoigtiiovne rtiose ttohodiscNuosbsiloonsponokteh,es
his friend not to bring on questions of this sort
ta.alugmtahbinoerr;ity, he might add his own to confirm what the Noble
Duke had predicted, that every time the subject of the trade
with the east was broached, he should always bring forward the
Timber-laws and the Corn-laws.—( Laughter.)
Lord STRANG FO RD then moved his resolution for an
address to her Majesty for copies of all notices given by the
French Government to the British Government of blockades
carried on by them on the coast of South America ; and copies
of some other papers, the names of which were not distinctly
beard.

Viscount MELBOURNE said there was no objection to
grant the first papers in the Noble Lord's motion, and he
believed the others were not in existence. Blockades were
very disagreeable things, but they were resorted to by all
nations, and all we were entitled to do was to see that they
were legally carried on, and with a sufficient force. We had
no right to constitute ourselves judges of the cause of war
between the nations—that would be to take a part in the dis-
pute. The Mexican Government offered to leave the cause in
dispute to the arbitration of Great Britain ; but the French
Government said we had no right to interfere.
The resolution was then put, and agreed to.
THE TRADE OF CALCUTTA.
Lord BROUGHAM—I have now to present to your Lord-
ships a petition which, whether we regard the subject matter
of it or the importance and number of the persons who have
signed it, deserves very great attention. It has been placed in
my bands by an Honourable and Learned Gentleman, who was
sent over to this country as the agent, formally authorised by
the inhabitants of Calcutta, whose confidence he has long pos-
sessed, whose esteem he has well merited, whose respect for
his talents and high professional character, he has attained in
an unexampled de7ree. The Right Honourable Gentleman,
the Judge Advocate, Mr. Cutlar Ferguson, is the only Gen-
tleman who ever had a larger portion of confidence, than Mr.
Turton. The petition is on a subject of great importance.
It is on the subject of one of the late Acts of the Indian Go-
vernment, No 11 of the Acts of 1836, commonly called the
Black Act, I name it so for shortness, and not invidiously.
It _f• 'lip,
• (L•.;st than t 6,,,9I)ej. petition era are
the respectable inhabitants and merchants of Calcutta, in the
first instance ; the Hindoos, in the next place; and lastly, there

are a great number of Parsees. All these persons strongly
represent the iniquity to them, the injustice to them, and the
absurdity itself and repugnance to all principle of this
Act, which under the semblance of giving equal laws
to the natives and Europeans, places the latter
on the most cruel, unequal, and unjust footing. It
enacts, " keeping the word of promise" to the ear only,
that persons of whatever class, colour, &c., shall be subject to
be tried for all matters and by the same Judges, by the native
Judges, or Imaums, in the Zillah, or local courts, which try
seven-tenths of the immense number of causes in the country
Now the consequence of that is neither more nor less than
this, that these persons being subject in a majority of cases to
be tried and have their rights disposed of by English law,
that law is to be administered to them by writers who go
out from this country and never were lawyers at all, who
know nothing of the English law, and who sit as Judges in
the Zillah Court of the First Instance, in the Provincial
Court, or Court of Appeal, which is the intermediate Court,
and in the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut Court, or Court of the
Last Instance. Not only are they tried by these Judges who
know nothing of the matter, comparatively, but they are tried,
seven out of ten, by the Imaums, or native Judges, who know
no more of Comyn's Digest, or Blackstone's Commentaries
than we do of the Pundits or the Koran. This is what is
called equal law, this is putting the natives and the English
on the same footing. It is good for the natives, because it is
the native law which is administered by natives ; but it is not
good for us, for they have to administer the English law to
the English. And then it is said, " Oh, but there is no
change in the law—it remains the same as before." To
be sure it does, and so much the worse. The change
is made of the people who administered the law, and
that is as bad as if the law were changed, and
worse.—( Hear, hear.) Having said thus much, I 4
am naturally called on to say that the English merchants in
Calcutta, who are interested in the trade of the whole country,
and the natives who have the English laws administered to
them by these exceedingly ignorant and incompetent Courts,
object to this as much as the English. I gravely doubt
whether this is a legal Act, and the ground of my doubt is
this. By the 43d section of the 3 and 4 William IV., c. 85
(the Act of 1832) it is enacted that no laws or regulstions
shall be made by the Governor in Council which shall in any
way affect any prerogative of the Crown. Now mark how
this affects the prerogative of the Crown. It takes away ap-
peal. The British Courts, whose jurisdiction is here ousted
and supplanted by the native Courts, is confined to cases of
50,000 rupees, or 4,0001. sterling. The appeal in these Courts
is as low as 5,000 rupees or 4001. sterling. Is that no ousting
of the jurisdiction of the King in Council ? It is a most mate-
rial one. Is that not in any way touching or affecting the
prerogative of the Crown ? It is taking away appeal in the
great majority of cases—for cases there are important, which
exceed 4001. sterling. This is not only trenching on the pre-
rogative of the Crown, but it is a great hardship. I will not
detain your Lordships longer. I have stated briefly
and accurately the real merits of the case, and un-
less I see some reason to alter the strong opinion which
I have formed on the subject, I shall feel it my
duty, as the adviser of your Lordships to bring in the Bill of
1833, to bring the matter under the consideration of the House.
Lord LYNDHURST—What does the petition pray?
Lord BROUGHAM—It only prays that the premises may
be taken into consideration.

The Duke of WELLINGTON said it would be very de-
sirable for Noble Lords, before they decided upon the matters
contained in the petition, to look into the whole discussion
which had taken place in 1833 on the subject, as from those
discussions a good deal of information might be acquired.
Lord BROUGHAM.—The Noble Duke is perfectly right.
It is a vexata questio. lam informed that this is not the act
of Commission—it is the recommendation of one of the Com-
missioners, and the others were not of the same opinion, but it
was adopted by the Commissioners in Council. 1 now wish to
ask the attention of your Lordships for one moment, whilst I
state that I have been intrusted with a petition on the subject
of negro slavery, which has been mislaid, but the purport of
which I think it necessary to state to the House. The peti
tioners, after thanking your Lordships for what you had already
done on this subject, pray your constant and unremitting at-
tention to what remains to be done in watchiug over the Colo.
nial Legislatures of the country ; and the grounds of the prayer
are these :—That symptoms have already been perceived of
ill-will towards the new arrangements by those bodies, and
that though they were unanimous in favour of emancipation, as
far as their voices went, yet in their hearts they were not so.
They stated that Barbadoes for instance, which behaved so ad-
mirably at first in passing the Emancipation Act, has passed
no less than five Acts, all of which have received the sanction of
the Executive Government, and are in operation, and designed
o keep up coercive labour though the slave is nominally free,
and that in British Guiana two ordinances of a most stringent
nature have passed, the enforcement of which the petitioners
apprehend will render freedom but a name in these Colonies.
There is wealth and power on one side and none on the other,
which will always make one class at the mercy of the other.
I, therefore, hope that your Lordships and the Government
Kill be aware of this, and think they ought to require a sus-
pensory clause in every Act that is passed.
TRADING COMPANIES BILL.
Lord BROUG HAM—I should hope that the Noble Lord
on the Woolsack does not mean to press this most exception-
able Bill, founded on a principle the most abominable, for
carrying into effect the bad Act of last Session, giving rise
to every species of fraud and dishonesty. It has not answered
in France. A man of straw is set up, and all the rest are
answerable only to the amount of about 100/. I hope the
present Trading Companies Act will not pass, and if it is
brought forward now, I shall move that it be read a third
time this day three months.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—My Lords, the reason ftr
introducing the Bill is, that the former Acts have proved in-
effectual for the purposes for which they were intended.
Lord BROUGHAM—My Lords, we are now, it appears,
to be told that the Acts in existence are ineffectual. I could
demonstrate not only that they are ineffectual, but that all
great and practical authorities consider them placed upon a
fallacious foundation, and are decidedly against them. I find,
my Lords, that in France the practice has been attended with
the worst consequences. I hope, therefore, my Noble and
Learned Friend will give up the Bill.
The LORD C HANCE L L OR—I cannot give up the Bill.
Lord BROUG H AM.—Then, my Lords, I move that the
Bill be re%d a third time this day three months.—( Cries of
" No, no," and laug•..ter.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR.—You cannot de that.
I have not yet movtd the Order of the Day for the third
reading.
Lord BROUGHAM.—Then I move the Order of the
Day for the third reading of the Bill—the Trading Com-
panys Bill..

The Earl of WICKLOW.-My Lords, in all my experience

I never witnessed anything so irregular as this ; I never
knew an instance in all my experience of a Noble Lord
moving the third reading of a measure which he means to
oppose.

Lord B R 0 UG H A M—My Lord, I am regular; quite regu-
lar, I can assure you.--(Laughter.) My Noble and Learned
Friend says he won't give up the Bill, and still he has not
moved the third reading ; now, as I want to proceed with it
at once, and to throw it out.if I can—(Laughter)—as I have
already been kept ten da),Jonger in the House than I ex-
pected, and as I do not mean to stay in it ten minutes longer
—( Laughter)—l will move the third reading, in order to
save my Learned Friend the trouble, and get the business dis-
patched at once.—(lncreased laughter.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR—My Lords, in order to
accommodate my Noble Friend, as he appears rather anxious
to quit the House, I will at once move the Order of the Day
for the third reading of the Bill.
Lord BROUGHAM—Then, my Lords, I move as an
amendment, that the Bill be read a third time this day three
months. The object of the Bill is to enable the Crown to
constitute any three or twenty persons a corporation for the
purpose of cal rying on a trade ; at the same time making those
persons liable only to the amount they have embarked in that
trade. New that, my Lords, in my opinion, gives a license
to every species of fraud. The last Bid that has been intro-
duced on this subject has been productive of the worst re-
sults, and the effect of the present measure will be to make
that which was bad enough before, ten times worse.—( Cheers.)
Therefore it is that I hope your Lordships will not allow this
measure to be read a third time.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—My Lords, the Bill
of last year requires great alterations, and the object of the
present measure is to supply:its omissions and defects. The
Act of the last Session authorised the Crown to sanction the
incorporating associations of persons for effecting, by their
joint capital, public works and. objects, but it did not com-
prehend companies formed prior to the Ac!. The object of
the present Bill was to remedy that defect upon all companies
complying with the regulations laid down by the Act that
was now in force. There is sometimes great difficulty in
making Corporations pay the demands against them, because
very often their property is not to be four.d ; by the present
Bill, every person must register their shares ; parties, there-
fore, well know the extent to which they are liable, and the
public will be aware of the persons with whom they have
to deal.
Lord BROUGHAM—My Lords, I have already stated
to your Lordships the objections I entertain to this measure,
and also to the Bill of last year. That measure gives to the
proprietors of Trading Companies only a limited responsibility,
and relaxes that care and vigilance which every partner in a
concern ought. to keep over the whole of his partners. The
result of which is, my Lords, that for want of that vigilance
many a concern will be brought to a stand still, and many
hundreds of individuals will be ruined. Oh I but, says my
Noble and Learned Friend, the names of all the shareholders
must be registered. Now, I think there is very little in that.
We all know the effect of great names, such as Baring, Mel-
lish, and others. A man, when he get a bill of theirs, does
not go inquiring about their respectability, because he knows
he can get the money for that bill at any time; so with
respect to many of these Companies, people don't go to the
Register to see who are proprietors and who are not. They
see great names attached to the Direction, in many instances
without the sanction of the parties, they give them credit,
they advance them money, and probably the next day they
find them all in the Gazette.— ( Fleur, bear.) Now, a law on
the same principle has been tried in France, and most signally
failed. It is the practice often in Companies, for some of the
acting partners to fabricate accounts of fictitious property,
and to make it appear that they are able to pay a
dividend of twenty per cent. for the present year, and
a similar dividend for the next, and so they go on till
the whole capital is absorbed, while all the time there has
be nothing but loss instead of profit. It is very easy, my
Lords, to produce mystification and delusion by means of
accounts, when persons are disposed to do so; and, therefore,
it bs-xmnie, necc;aa,ry that means should be taken to preventa
sack preceLdiNgs. Under the good old system, in case o
defalcation, the Directors were made to disgorge their pro-
fits if it should be proved that they had not acted fairly, but

S tr rr
''/,,it.-,y
.4';

'-'
_. 1
under the new French system they are allowed to .01 et . own accounts, to the ruin of the other shareho .4,.
5.,/. -`e
are not to be liable beyond the extent of 1001.. 1. ,1 Niiii4;7-r--
I have clearly shewn, that the result of this system inNf424,3- _ .1
--
has been most mischievous, your Lordships will hesitaeft irva .; before you make it effectual in England—(Hear, hear)—:atia '
that being the object of the present Bill, that you will reject
it altogether —( Hear, hear.) The measure, my Lords, was
originally resorted to in a poor country, where the means were
required to draw capital into trade, but that is not the case in
England, for here there is too much disposition to invest capi-
tal in trading speculations. My Lords, it is far from my
wish to check the spirit of fair speculation, but I can-
not but think that the present Bill, if it become
law, would tend -to encourage the investment of small
sums in enterprises which would neither afford benefit to those
engaged in them or the community at large.—( Hear.) For
these reasons I trust that your Lordships will reject the Bill.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—My Lords, the observa-
tions of the Noble Lord may apply very well to the ordinary
matters of trade, but they can have no reference at all to grrat
public works. My Lords, I would ask your Lordships whe-
ther there are no Railway Companies and no Canal Compa-
nies whose Directors deal fairly with their proprietors ? The
real question for your Lordships is, whether the proposed sys-
tem is not better for the individuals concerned and the corn-
munity at large, than that of placing their capital in the hands
of Corporations, against whom the individual creditors could
not enforce their claims?
Ler d BROUGHAM—I beg to say it is not. Five hundred
persons cannot form themselves into a Company—they must
have an Act of Parliament, and the Act of Parliament al-
most always gives them a geeeral responsibility, and hardly
one of them are liable. If Railway and other Companies go
lon well, much of this is to be attributed to the wisdom of Par-
liament, and the new rules of the House, by which the merits
of every private Bill are fully and accurately sifted. B. the
present Bill the whole details are teken out of the hands of
Parliament, and transferred to the discretion of two or three
private individuals, who may perhaps be influenced by party
or persoaal motives.
Earl WICKLOW was certainly against the principle of
the Bill, but he understood the present to be an amendment
of a measure pa s:d last year. He understocod that the ef-
fect of throwing out the Bill would be, not to alter the system,
but to leave the former measure defective.
Lord BROUGHAM—That Bill is not erow acted upon
at all.

Earl WICKLOW—He wished also to understand how the
present maxim affecied railroad subscribers?
Lord BROUGHAM—It does not affect them at all ; the
former measure was never carried into operation, in conse-
quence of the defect; which the preteat Bill proposed to remedy.
Earl WICKLOW—It such was the case he certainly
would feel himself warranted in giving his vote in favour of
the amendment of the Noble and Learned Lord opposite.
Lord BROUGHAM—No existing Railway can be af-
fected by the Bill. If the present measure be rejected, the
Bill of last year c,nnot be carried into effect, and so much
the better for the interests of the commercial world.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—AIIow me to observe,
that the object of this Bill is to make the former one more
effective.

The Noble and Learned Lord then put the question—that
the Bill be now re td a third time.
Lord M E LBO URN E—Content.
Lord BROUGHAM—(In a much louder voice)—Not
Content.
The Lord CHANCE LLO R—(Doubtingly)—l think the
Contents have it.—( A laugh.)
Lord BROUGHAM—The Non• Contents have it.—
( Much laughter.)
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, nhen the numbers were—
Fur the third Reading, Contents " lO
Against it Non-Contents ... 12
M'jority 2
The Bill was consequently lost.
The Duchy of Cornwall Tin Duties Bill was reparted, with
some ; mendments; after which, their Lordships adjourned.

-U*