The Sun.
London, England, 1854-02-14 00:00:00

painful and acrimonious discussion ? (Hear, hear.) In the
Present House of Commons the noble lord knew the sup-
.ort which he might anticipate in case of need • but if he
mied the bill which he had laid, upon the table it would
? I most involve the necessity of a dissolution of Parliament
during the summer or autumn ; and who could tell what
changes and vicissitudes might take place in the course of
a protracted war, or in what temper the people of Eng-
land might be at the time when the dissolution took
lace ? (Hear, hear.) The noble earl at the head
lo'f the Government had stated in another place that the
hope of preserving peace need not yet be abandoned.
Tope o
he feared, was shared by very few persons in
this country, and in whatever bosom it found a refuge it
must be a hope very near akin to despair. He certainly
could not share that hope, and, as he believed the country
to be nearly involved in a war which was likely to be
snore protracted in duration, and to be fraught with more
serious consequences than the noble lord seemed to antici-
pate, he conjured him once more to consider whether the
present was not a juncture at which such a measure ought
not to be pressed upon Parliament. Before he sat down
there was one point to which he wished to allude, upon
which he thought the house was entitled to some explana-
tion. During the discussion of the Reform Bill in the
Cabinet the resignation of the noble lord the Home Secre-
tary had been made known to the country. He begged to
assure the noble lord that, as no man upon the Treasury
bench possessed more the confidence of the country than
the noble lord, so no man in that house was prepared to
speak of him with more respect than he was ; but he
thought the noble lord owed it to is own character, and
to the satisfaction of the house and the country, now that
that the question of Parliamentary reform was brought
fairly under their notice, to give some explanation of that
retirement which, at a very moment of our domestic his-
tory, left this country for 12 days without a Home Secre-
tary. He hoped the noble lord knew that he was of suffi-
cient importance, and filled sufficient space in the estima-
tion
of his countrymen, to render anything that he did
in a public matter the subject of remark, and deserving
such an explanation as the circumstance might seem to
demand. Upon that account he wished to ask the noble
lord if he would condescend to inform the house
what were the circumstances in connection with the
Reform Bill which had led him to abandon the
helm which he guided with so much vigour, and
leave the country at a most critical period 12 days without
a Secretary of State for the Home Department? (Hear.)
Mr. H. BAIL LIE asked whether the same principle
which had been laid down for England would also be ap-
plied to Scotland, and whether all places which did not
contain 300 electors would be disfranchised ?
Mr. F. FRENCH asked the same question with reference
to Ireland, and also whether counties with populations
exceeding 100,000 were to have additional members, as in
England ?
Mr. ELLICE thought it rather hard that the noble lord
should have included all the freemen of this country in his
charge of general corruption. Since he had represented
those truly honest, independent, and incorruptible men,
the electors of Coventry, in that house, now nearly 40
years, he defied the noble lord to say that upon any occa-
sion had any charge of corruption been made against the
freemen portion of his constituents. There was one good
argument upon which it appeared to him that the right of
the freemen could be maintained. The house wished to
give the franchise to the best instructed of the working
classes. The process by which the freemen of Coventry
gained their votes was by serving seven years to the same
master in the same city. Unless their conduct was good,
and their masters certified to that effect, they could not
obtain their freedom ; and what better proof, he asked,
than such a servitude could they have of the fitness and
qualifications of a man to exercise the elective franchise ?
(Hear, hear.) This was not the time when they should
take away one of the franchises of the workmen of this
country. They were just now engaged in a struggle for
the maintenance of the value of their labour, and he asked
them at such a time not to deprive them f the right of
being represented in that house, especially when their fit-
ness to be represented might favourably contrast with that
of any other class in the community. (Hear.)
Mr. GEACH corroborated the views of his right hon.
colleague with respect to the freemen of Coventry, and ex-
pressed his opinion that the system of freedoms provided a
class of voters of greater aggregate intelligence and political
knowledge than could be obtained in any other manner.
Colonel SIBTHORP hoped that the freemen of Lincoln
would treat with the same contempt that he did the un-
just, unnecessary, and unworthy observations of the noble
lord. Ho wished that her Majesty's Ministers might be as
honest, upright, and straightforward as they were. (Hear,
tear, and a laugh.) Then we should have the Treasury
bench more pure, more to be relied on, and deserving of
greater con fidence than it was at this moment. He had
known those freemen for years. He entertained the
highest opinion of them, and he would not condescend, ob-
jecting as he did to the bill almost altogether, to do more
than to repeat his hope that the freemen of Lincoln would
treat the unworthy stigma which the noble lord had
thought proper to place upon them with that contempt
which he told the noble lord that he did. (Laughter.) _

Colonel BLAIR wished to know if counties in Scotland
with a population of upwards of 100,000 would be allowed
au additional member?

Sir B. HALL complained of the want of enfranchise-
ment as regarded the metropolitan boroughs. (A laugh
from the Opposition.) The noble lord proposed to give an
r,dditional member to the borough of Salford, and he
took—so far as he (Sir B. Hall) could understand—a popu-
lation of 100,000 as the point about which he would give a
third member ; and on what principle was it, therefore,
that he made the metropolitan beroughs an exception to
this rule ?

Mr. NEWDEGATE wished to know if the noble lord
formed any calculation as to the number of each of the
new constituencies?

Mr. PHILLIMORE thought the project of the noble
lord the member for the city of London as to the repre-
sentation of minorities, was certainly a whimsical oue, to
say the least of it, and he wished to know if the noble
lord would have any objection to apply the principle to
the proceedings of that house, so that out of every three
measures the majority might carry two, and the minority
one? (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He certainly disagreed
with the noble lord's proposal to repeal the act which
obliged all persons accepting place to vacate their
seats. The act, passed by Godolphin's Ministry,
was intended to provide against, placeiueu having seats
la that house, and was described by Mr. Hallam as
being a most valuable and serviceable provision. (Hear,
hear.) The noble lord must recollect that it was part of a
system, and, though it might produce great inconveniences
at times, yet these were, without doubt, entirely balanced
by its advantages. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. TUFNELL regretted that the bill contained uo pro-
vision relating to the property qualification. He had ab-
stained last year from bringing the subject before the house,
hoping that it would be included in the anticipated mea-
sure of reform, a hope which was greatly strengthened by
the fact that, in the constitutions recently granted to the
colonies, we declare that persons qualified to be electors
should be also qualified for representatives. As the noble
lord, however, had not dealt with this point in his measure,
he now gave notice that he should himself, as early as pos-
sible, ask fur leave to bring in a bill•on the subject.
Mr. HUME said, that one great object which he had
always had in view in promoting reform had been to bring
within the pale of the constitution a body of men who
hitherto, he thought, had been hardly treated—the higher
class of artisans. This measure, however, so far as he saw
at present, gave no opportunity of doing that. Considering
how many of these artisans were obliged to go about from
place to place, often residing less than one year in a place,
it was scarcely to be expected that a6l. franchise, with two
and a-half years' residence, would admit many of them ;
but, had the noble lord fixed a 5/. franchise, with one year's
residence, he would probably have given many of them
votes. He was greatly pleased with the noble lord for
having persevered with the measure at the present time ;
for he was perfectly satisfied that the country was fully
capable of considering a measure of this sort calmly and
deliberately, even under the pressure of an impending war.
Of all parts of the measure he most approved of Schedule
A. He hoped, however, that the house would never pass
that part of the bill which related to the representation of
the minority. All our institutions were grounded on the
preponderance of the majority, and such a principle as the
noble lord now sought to introduce was entirely new.
He should also have much preferred that the noble
lord should have brought down the suffrage to one
universal standard—the municipal suffrage. In conclusion,
he would ask the noble lord, whether he had made any
calculation as to what would be the number of the elec-
toral body? At present it was, in round numbers, about
0)0,900, and he wished to know whether it would be in-
crease.' or diminished. He would ask how it was that a
new member wits to be given to Salford, while the Tower
}lamlets, with a population of 500,000 was still to have
but two?

After a few words from Mr. CAYLEY,
Mr. H. DRUMMOND said, it cannot be expected that
1, who so much disliked the former Reform Bill, should
look upon the present one with grateful eyes. That Re-
f arm Bill was hailed as a revolutionary measure by every
man in the country who liked revolution, and it was re-
p tiled by every man who disliked revolution, and both of
them alike called it honestly by that name. (Hear, hear,
from the Opposition.) 1 can find no fault with the noble
lord for pursuing the course upon which he then entered,
hat I confess I am again somewhat surprised, as I was
1- it year, that, knowing how to interpret our own language,
those who support this measure should speak of it under
tile character of a measure of " Conservative progress."
It is progress, undoubtedly; progress in that revolutionary
measure which the noble lord himself so stigmatised 23
years ago. This is a measure which is entitled, I think,
te the same character. Now, sir, not to call names with-
out stating clearly what I mean by the terms, I mean this,
—that you do sever, and did at that time sever, and are
going on severing, property from power. (Hear, hear,
from the Opposition.) No matter by what means, no
matter what words you use, that severance is Socialism.
Whether it be wise in the noble lord to bring this measure
oe at this time I care not. Ido not believe it signifies at
all whether you discuss it in a state of war or peace,—the
measure contains in itself that which must be sooner or
later destructive. It is of no use in the world speaking of
it in other language ; it is incense offered to that party
which for 21 years the noble lord has idolised, the party
which honestly, and without disguise, declares that its in-
teetion and hope is to establish shortly a democracy iu this
country. (Loud cheers from the Opposition.)
Mr. J. BALL thought that the provision in the bill
which gave a vote to any man who had 501. in the savings
baak would remedy some of the defects complained of by
the hon member for Montrose as likely to arise from line-
itieg the franchise to 61. He hoped that this would be
made to include every kind of savings, and particularly
:Asurances. He thought Ireland would have great reason
to complain if the same session which saw the application
of sound views of reform to England was allowed to pass
without their being extended to Ireland.
Lord J. RUSSELL—SeveraI members have asked me
wi .h respect to the measures to he introduced for Scotland
and Ireland. All I can say is, that I will not attempt to
explain those measures at present, but that the same prin-
ciples will be applied generally to all the three countries,
and that the number of members for Ireland will remain
what it is, while the number of members for Scotland will
be three more than at present. With regard to any of
their provisions, I beg leave to decline answering any
questions at present ; the Chief Secretary for Ireland and
the Lord Advocate will at the proper time submit the re-
speetive measures for the consideration of the house. The
hee. baronet the member for Marylebone has asked why
tali re was not a greater addition to the number of the me-
tropolitan members. Now, we propose to create Chelsea
awl Kensington into a borough, to return two members,
awl really, sir, I think that will be sufficient addition to
the metropolitan members. (Hear, hear.) When we
consider how much the metropolis is one place, the advan-
the members have of being here with their constitu-
ents near thein—(a laugh)—coming down, as the hon. baro-
net often does, having had a communication with some
hundreds of his constituents in the morning to express their
views here in the evening—l really think we must agree
that the metropolis—always excepting, of course, that part
which I represent (a laugh)—is sufficiently well represented.
My right hon. friend the member for Coventry complains
of my proposal for the future disfranchisement of freemen.
All I can say with respect to that is, that in all cases where