The Sun.
London, England, 1854-03-04 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT,

- HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
THE NEW REFORM BILL.
The Earl of DERBY—My lords, I am induced, in
consequence of certain rumours, and perhaps I may say
somewhat more than rumours, which have acquired a
good deal of force and consistency during the last week,
to put a question to the noble lord at the head of the
Government, of which I have given him notice in the
course of the day, and to which I hope she will have no
difficulty or hesitation in giving an answer. My lords,
you will recollect that, in her Majesty's Speech from the
Throne, her Majesty was advised to recommend to the
l consideration of Parliament in the course of the present
session the law affecting the representation of the people
in,Parliament ; and that, at a very early period after the
delivery of that speech, the noble lord the leader of the
House of Commons, gave notice in another place of his
intention to bring in a bill for the purpose of effecting a
reform in the representation of the people. My lords,
both upon the occasion of that first announcement of
this intention, and also upon a subsequent occasion, her
Majesty's Government were appealed to by friends and
by foes, more especially by a noble earl whom I do not
now see in his place (Earl Grey), and by various other
noble lords—and I believe in the other House of Par-
liament similar appeals were made—not to introduce, at
a period when it was important that all the energies of
the country should be concentrated in preparing for that
great and formidable war, in which it was obvious to
every one we were about to be engaged—not, I say, to
distract the country by introducing a subject of bitter-
ness and animosity, excitement and controversy, which
would divide parties at a time when it was most import-
ant that they should be united. I believe the answer
given in the other House of Parliament was that her
Majesty's Government brought forward this measure in
• pursuance of a pledge which they were absolutely com-
pelled to redeem. Now, if the noble earl and his colleagues
- had confined themselves to the introduction of the mea-
sure in redemption of the pledge which they had given—
although I might have thought it was very imprudent to
fling down before the country a measure of such import-
ance without proceeding to its consideration—l certainly
should have made allowance for the position in which the
Government had placed themselves on a former occasion
by pledging themselves, as one of the points on which
they rested their claims to the confidence of the county
to bring forward a measure orreform. But, my lords,
her Majesty's Government went further than this ; for,
appealed to, as I have said, by all sides of this and the
other house of Parliament, not unnecessarily to enter
into a conflict on so exciting a topic, and having the
example set them in the other house by their opponents,
of declining to enter into this matter of controversy, by
allowing the bill to be read a first time without opposi-
tion, and almost without observation, her Majesty's
Government thought it necessary to state that they
brought forward this bill not only in performance of
this pledge, but that they considered the war which
threatened to interrupt our foreign relations, not only
formed no ground why the discussion, consideration,
and enactment of that measure should be postponed,
but that, on the contrary, their was a peculiar fitness
in bringing it forward at this particular time—(bear,
hear)—that it would be a magnificent spectacle to
Europe and to the world to see that, while we were en-
gagged in a war, which really after all could not be of
very great importance with a power like Russia—(a
laugh)—we were able at the same time—considering
war a matter of secondary importance—to apply our
undivided attention to the reform and improvement of
domestic institutions. That has been the statement
made on the part of the Government both in this house
and the other house of Parliament ; and accordingly a
day was fixed for the second reading of that measure
of reform—an interval, I think, of three weeks or a
month from the period when it was first introduced into
Parliament—a period certainly sufficiently long to en- '
able the country to form, as I think they have formed,
a very decided opinion with regard to the merits of the
proposition, and to give the members of the other house
of Parliament an opportunity of considering the course
they ought to take. But I confess that, although it is
with great satisfaction, yet, after what has taken place,
it is with some surprise that in the course of the last three
or four days I find rumours have been very rife, that
a general expectation is entertained—notwithstanding
all the peculiar propriety of this time—notwithstanding
the little influence which the state of our foreign rela-
tions need now exercise on matters of domestic policy
—(a. laugh)—that, after all, this measure of reform, on
which the Government rest their claims to the support
of the country, and which they brought forward in re-
demption of a most solemn pledge, given in the face of
Parliament, is to be allowed to lie on the table of the
other house of Parliament, and is not intended at all
events for the present to be proceeded with. I think
her Majesty's Government have done very wisely if they
have adopted the course of postponing, if not abandon-
ing, during the present session, this measure of reform.
The Earl of ABERDEEN—My lords, although the
measure referred to by the noble earl is now before the
other house of Parliament, and although my noble friend
who has charge of that measure will this night make a
statement of the course intended to be pursued by her
Majesty's Government, and notwithstanding the bill,
as the noble lord observed, relates mainly and entirely
to the representation of the people in Parliament, I do
not in the least complain of thanoble earlior taking the
course which he has now thought proper to do. The
interest and importance of this subject fully justify him
in the course he has pursued, and I have no hesitation
in giving him the answer which he desires to have. My
lords, your lordships are aware that the second reading
of this bill now stands for the 13th day of this month.
In answer to the noble earl on the bench below me, at
a very early period of the session, I replied to the ques-
tion put by him on that occasion, when he asked me
whether the bill would be introduced before the army
and navy estimates would be laid on the table, by stat-
ing that it would be so ; and I also added that the con-
sideration of the measure would not be hastily pressed,
so as to interfere with the progress of the public service,
in making those preparations which the exigencies of
thie times [rendered necessary. My lords, in conse-
quence, the 13th March, although I believe the bill was
read on the 13th February for the first time, was fixed
for the second reading. It will then have been before
the country for a month. The noble earl has said that
the country has had a full opportunity to form an opi-
nion upon the nature of the measure. I know not what
may be the opinion of the noble earl, or what he sup-
poses the opinion of the country may be. But this I
say, that her Majesty's Government have had no rea-
sol3 to be dissatisfied with the opinion of the country
upon that measure, so far as it has been expressed.
(Cheers.)
I believe it has found favour with the coun-
try—(hear, hear)—that it has been considered as a just,
a liberal, an honest, and a safe measure. (Cheers.) But my
lords, although I admit that the calamity of war must
necessarily interfere with all social progress, still I am
not aware that it is absolutely necessary that this curse
which we are to endure is to impede and utterly prevent
all domestic improvement. My lords, when I said, in
answer to the noble earl below me, that the necessary
measures would be taken to provide for the public ser-
vice, in contemplation of this calamity then impending,
I gave that reason which now it is necessary for me to
repeat. I see that the necessary supplies have not yet
been passed for the service in which we are about to en-
gage. This very night a vote will be proposed for an
additional 15,000 men ; and on Monday, as my noble
and learned friend opposite (Lord Brougham) has ob-
served, the financial prospects and measures of the year
for providing for this increased expenditure will be laid
before the other house of Parliament. Her Majesty's
Government have thought it right, not only to provide
a sufficient force for the great operations in which we
may be engaged, but to provide the means by which the
expense of that force may be defrayed. This I think it
is the duty of Government to do, and this it is which we
propose to do. Under these circumstances, therefore,
my noble friend who has charge of this bill, will propose
to-night to postpone the second reading of the measure
until an early day after Easter—that is, until the 27th
of April. On that day it is the intention of my noble
friend to move the second reading of the bill. (Cheers.)
THE COMMITTEE ON THE IRISH LAND
BILLS.
Lord CLANCARTY, in moving for an addition of
five Peers to the committee on the Landlord and Tenant
Bill, complained that in an Irish question only two Irish
representative peers were nominated.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE thought the committee
already sufficiently large. He praised the selection of
the committee, and the appointment of English members,
who would superadd English to Irish experience. Only
eight members of the committee, he observed, were un-
connected with Ireland.
Lord EGLINTON suggested the addition of two
names instead of five.
Lord DONOUGHMORE approved of the suggestion.
The Earl of WICKLOW—one of the proposed mem-
bers—expressed his willingness to undertake the duty.
Lord CLANCARTY refused to accede to the compro-
mise, and the motion was negatived without a division.
Their lordships then adjourned.

the purpose of so amending the representation. I will not
now enter—it is no part of the subject of to-day—into the
merits of the bill ; but I may say that, having introduced
the bill, I fixed a day for its second reading, after an inter-
val in which I thought the house would be able to give
its attention to the subject. I did not, however, say that
that was positively fixed, and I of course reserved to my-
self the discretion of naming any other day. But, how-
ever, soon after that day was fixed, the hon. baronet the
member for East Kent gave notice of a motion, as an
amendment to the second reading, to the effect that in the
present state of our foreign relations, the proceeding with
that bill for the amendment of the representation would be
inopportune. Ido not know what was the object of the
hon. baronet in giving that early notice, but it certainly
seems as if his notice was rather one of hostility to the
Government than of hostility to the measure proposed, as
there is nothing in the amendment which at all implies any
disapprobation of the bill itself. When, however, some
time had elapsed, her Majesty's Government had to consider
what their own course should be, and whether it would be
convenient to the house to proceed with the bill upon that
day which I had named. Now there are two points to be
considered upon this subject, to which I beg to call the at-
tention of the house. One is, the state of public business ;
the other, the state of our foreign relations at this moment,
With respect to the public business, I conceive that it is
the duty of her Majesty's Government after the announce-
ment we have made, and in the state of our foreign rela-
tions, as shown by the despatches laid upon the table of the
house, to ask, in the first place, for all the supplies which
we might think necessary for the public service at the pre-
sent time, and in the second, to obtain those " ways and
means" by which we should be able to ascertain how we
defray the additional expenditure required. With respect
to the first of these requisites, the house has shown such a
willingness to vote the supplies which were required, and
such devotion to the public service, that there has not
arisen any difficulty upon that point, and no time has been
taken up greater than necessary for the purpose. With
reference to the second subject, we have yet to ascertain—
and it will only be on Monday next that my right
hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will state the
views which the Government entertain of the present state
of the finances of the country, and the measures which we
think are necessary for the public service and the mainte-
nance of public credit. Such, therefore, will be, in the
course of the next week, the state of the public business ;
and it seems to imply that the bill for the amendment of
the representation could hardly come on that week, con-
sistently with the object of obtaining both the supplies
necessary for the public service and the " ways and means"
necessary to defray the increased expenditure. But, al-
though the bill might not come on upon that day—the 13th
of March—it would certainly have been in our power to fix
a somewhat later day upon which the second reading might
be preceded with. But here I have to ask the attention
of the house to that which will in all probability be our
position with respect to our foreign relations when that
later day should arrive. I can hardly say that I am reveal-
ing any secret to the house, for it has been announced in
the public papers for the last two or three days, that at
the end of the last month a messenger was sent with de-
spatches from the Governments of England and France to
St. Petersburgh, with respect to the occupation of Mol-
davia and Wallachia by the Russians. For a very long
time that occupation has been acquiesced in with the view
of carrying on negotiations by which their evacuation
might be made a stipulation in any treaty. These nego-
tiations have, unfortunately, after a very long time during
which they were carried on, led to no result ; and the con-
ference at Vienna has positively declined the only terms
upon which the Emperor of Russia declared himself ready
to treat. We could, therefore, no longer permit this
wrongful occupation of the territories of Turkey ; and the
Governments of England and France have, therefore,
signified to the Emperor of Russia that they should
consider his continued occupation of the Principalities,
beyond a certain time necessary for carrying their eva-
cuation into effect, as equivalent to a declaration of war.
(Hear, hear.) Calculating the time which is necessary
for the transmission of these despatches to St. Peters-
burgh, and supposing that the Emperor of Russia—as has
already occurred—will listen to no terms other than those
which he has himself proposed, the negative answer of
the Emperor will reach this country in about twenty-five
days from the time when the message was sent ; and
therefore towards the end of this month it will be the duty
of the Ministers of the Crown to bring down a mess Age
from her Majesty to the two houses of Parliament, declar-
ing, in the usual terms, that the relations between this
country and Russia no longer exist. If such be the proba-
ble and, I am afraid I must say, the almost certain course
which events will then take, I think the Government can-
not be wrong in deciding that that particular moment,
when such a message may be either upon the eve of being
brought down, or may be under discussion, or may be ac-
tually delivered, would hardly be the time to deliberate
with due consideration upon a question of such grave im-
portance as that of the state of the representation of the
people. I cannot but think that, such being the case, it
will be better to postpone the consideration of the Reform
Bill to a future day. But when I say a future day, I may
here entertain the hope that when that day comes which I
affairs
propose t
ffalirsaswill
enableo fix,
there may
thehomuss otahleoinlyexia'sot udsdech delibestaterat ely
to
onsider that bill. Upon the other hand, it would be the
eight of imprudence if I were to say that upon that par-
ticular day which I shall name, the business must infalli-
bly come on • and that that state of things might not arise,
which would make it necessary again to postpone it to a
future day. I can therefore only ask the house to agree
that I should have the power to defer the day upon which
I shall proceed with the bill to a later period ; and it will
then be in the power of the hon. baronet the member for
East Kent, or any other hon. member, when that time
comes, to interpose any objection which he may think
proper to its further progress. The postponement which
I shall propose will enable the Government to mature
and introduce the bills with respect to the representa-
tation of Scotland and Ireland, before the second reading
of the bill for England. The day on which I shall propose
to proceed with the latter measure is the day immediately
following the Easter holidays—Thursday, the 27th day of
April. Ido not propose an earlier day, because it would
be obviously inconvenient to the house to enter upon the
discussion of a bill of this sort a few days before the Easter
holidays, and then to be obliged to adjourn it till a future
period. (Hear, hear.)

Sir J. SHELLEY, who on thing to address the house
was received with cries of " oh, oh," expressed his deep re-
gret at the course which her Majesty's Ministers had
thought proper to pursue upon the present occasion. He
thought it was right the house and the country should
know the precise position in which they stood with re-
spect to this great question. The house would recollect
that upon a former occasion the noble lord stated that the
best time for introducing a measure to amend the represen-
tation of the people was when the public mind was quiet,
and not agitated upon the subject; but in his speech on
introducing the bill, in answer to what fell from the hon.
member for Liverpool, the noble lord declared that there
was nothing in the present state of public affairs, even
supposing we were at war, which should serve as a reason
for postponing a measure of this kind. But that was not
all ; last year the noble lord pledged his word that her
Majesty's Ministers, in the course of the present session,
would introduce a bill for the reform of the representation
of the people. That promise coming as it did from a
man of character and consistency, was believed and eon-
fided in by the country ; but now the noble lord came for-
ward at the last moment, within seven days of the time
fixed for the second reading of the measure, and announced
his intention to postpone the .bill, or rather to do that
which really amounted to a virtual abandonment of it.
Such, at all events, was his opinion of the course which
the noble lord had pursued ; and he did think the house
and the country had some right to complain, and were
entitled to ask the noble lord whether it was really his in-
tention to take the sense of the house upon the bill in the
present session. Nobody seemed to object to the principles
of the measure. The noble lord had very truly said that
the amendment of the hon. member for East Kent did not
refer to the merits of the bill itself, but merely set forth
that the present was not a proper time for going into the
question of Parliamentary reform. There could be only
one reason, therefore, for the refusal of the noble lord to
proceed with the bill, and that was, because he was afraid
of being placed in a minority in that house. (Cries of
" Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) Now, ho
would take the liberty of saying that it was the duty of
the noble lord, after the pledges he had given, to proceed
with the bill, let the consequences be what they might;
but should the noble lord persist in breaking all the pro-
mises he had made to the house and the country, it would
be difficult to believe that the whole thing had not been a
sham from the beginning to the end, and that the reformers
of England had not been completely bamboozled by her
Majesty's Ministers. (Cheers and laughter from the Oppo-
sition.) There were principles in the bill which the refor-
mers of the country had hailed with great satisfaction. It
did not go far enough for some of them—(a laugh)—but it
was, not a step, but a stride in the right direction, and
those who had advocated the cause of Parliamentary re-
form for years, could scarcely, he thought, be satisfied with
what would be universally regarded as a virtual withdrawal
of the measure. When he was told that there had been"
no excitement in favour of the bill, his reply was that the
excitement and agitation should have come from the other
side. If it was true, as avowed by hon. gentlemen oppo-
site, that a large portion of the nation objected to the prin-
ciples of the bill, why did they not get up public meetings
against it ? He could tell them, that if they had done so,
there would have been plenty of excitement in favour of
the bill. It seemed to him, however, that the country,
unlike the noble lord and her Majesty's Ministep, had pur-
sued a straightforward and dignified course. The people
had shown confidence in the Government, and had never
doubted for one moment that the noble lord would fulfil
the pledges he had given. For his own part, up till yes-
terday he firmly believed that the noble lord would move
the second reading of the bill on the 13th inst and he
never supposed for an instant that the noble lord, after all
that had occurred, would give up the measure, in order to
avoid being placed in a minority in that house. Did the
noble lord imagine that the country would be satisfied
with so trivial and paltry an excuse as that ? If the noble
lord was afraid of being placed in a minority by those
members whom the bill deprivedoftheirsk their opinionseattsh,ewhyd
did he
hesitate to appeal to the country, and ask
upon the subject? He was convinced that, if the noble
lord persevered in the course he was pursuing, the country
would lose confidence in every one who was placed in the
position of a Minister of the Crown. (A laugh.) He
should like to ask the noble lord, in the name of the re-
formers of England—(cries of "oh, oh !" and laughter)—
whether he really meant to proceed with the bill after the
Easter holidays, or whether he would then come forward
with another excuse for a further postponement of the
measure? Upon the answer given to that question would
depend the confidence which was to be reposed in her Ma-
jesty's Ministers. (Laughter.)
' Mr. LABOUCHERE—Sir, lam induced to trespass
upon the attention of the house for a few moments in con-
' sequence of the speech which has been addressed to them
by the honourable baronet the member for Westminster.
Sir, I believe I have been a reformer quite as long as he.
I believe I have had opportunities for observing the con-
duct of the noble lord the member for the city of London
much more nearly, and much more closely than the hon.
baronet ever had ; and if he will permit me to use the
privilege of age and experience in giving him any advice
upon the present occasion, I would say that, if he
values the cause of reform—if he really wishes practical suc-
cess to reform measures, and not merely to make them the
themes of declamation and agitation—if he wishes to see
those measures carried into effect, let him follow the guid-
ance of the noble lord the member for the city of London,
who has been our captain, and has led us to victory in many
a well-fought field, and who I believe to be not wavering
or dissenting on the present occasion, but cautious and ju-
dicious. (Cheers.) I confess, for my own part, so far from
agreeing with the hon. baronet that the cause of Parlia-
mentary reform has suffered by the course intimated by
the noble lord, my belief is that no policy could have been