The Sun.
London, England, 1854-05-24 00:00:00

struction, and from consenting at once to any steps that
they think may avert such destruction. Now, I cannot
but consider that these prognostics are of a serious nature,
and I cannot confide in the assurances hon. members give us
that if church rates were abolished all sorts of and of
dissension would cease; and that with regard to all other
prerogatives and privileges of the Church there would be
perfect acquiescence and contentment, and the Church
might look forward to a state of happy and prosperous
tranquillity. I confess I have no such antics ations. The
Church has various exclusive privileges. It has the privi-
lege of a high position. It is established in the country,
and is protected by Parliament. Its prelates have alone
the right of seats in one of the houses of Parliament, and on
every occasion we find that those who differ from that
Church complain of its exclusive privileges, and its high
position in the country. Now, lam not saying that
those feelings are unnatural, nor am I arguing that they
are unreasonable at this moment. But all I do venture
to argue, and all experience supports me, is, that you can-
not expect when you remove this one source of dissen-
sion to have that tranquillity and contentment which have
been prophesied by my hon. friend. On the contrary I be-
lieve that this is one of a series of attacks that will be fol-
lowed by other attacks of the same nature. (Hear.) If
your principle is concession and nothing but concession—
if on every occasion you purchase peace by adopting this
course—l must say that lam not prepared to say how far
you will be obliged to go in this direction. At the same
time lam very far from being ignorant of the difficulties
that beset this question of church rates. We cannot deny
that the state of the law is most unsatisfactory, and that
the remedies which prevail under that law give rise to scenes
scandalous in themselves, and occasion amongst
the various religious sects in this country. Well,
this is practically true. While no man can deny
that such is the state of the law, Ido not myself see that
you are likely to obtain any settlement of this question
which shall be at all satisfactory unless you take it into
your consideration what are the present rights of the Church,
and that you make your settlement upon a fair basis.
(Hear.) I have heard of a settlement on this basis, and an
hon. gentleman opposite, who has introduced a bill upon
the subject, has adopted such basis—namely, that those
who dissent from the Church should be registered as Dis-
senters, and, being so registered, that there should be a
certain portion of the church rates to which they should not
be obliged to contribute. Such was in a great part the mea-
sure of ley hon. and learned friend behind me (Mr.Phillim ore).
Well, I admit there is much to tempt one in this principle.
I own, however, I cannot but think that very serious evils
would follow hereafter from the distinctions that would be
thus set up between Churchmen and Dissenters. (Hear.)
One hon. gentleman has gone through some statistics in
regard to the Church. He has, however, I think, shown
not exactly that which he intended. It may no doubt be
true that the Church has no very great absolute majority
in the country, but it is quite evident that it has a very
considerable majority over eve:y other religion, The hon.
member has no doubt shown that there are great bodies
frequenting dissenting places of worship ; but there are
many of those dissenting places of worship attended by a
most numerous and respectable sect called Wesleyans, who
profess no hostility to the Church, and who, while they
purchase their lands and build their churches out of their
own resources, declare that they have no desire to injure
the Established Church. They think that Divine service
upon the Sunday should be attended to by the members
of the Established Church ; but they also think
that they ought to have dissenting chapels built for
their own particular form of worship. (Hear, hear.) I
think it would be a very great calamity if you obliged those
parties to say whether or not they were Dissenters, and
thereby put them in a position of antagonism to the
Church, which they did not themselves wish to occupy.
Such being the case, lam disposed to think it would be
far better that we should not now attempt during the re-
mainder of this session to find a solution of this very diffi-
cult problem. Ido not think it would be wise—l do not
think it would be consistent with the position which the
Established Church holds in this country that you should
totally abolish church rates. (Hear, hear.) My hon. friend
says—" Let me abolish church rates, and you are at per-
fect liberty to find some provision afterwards for the re-
pair of churches." That is a very convenient proposal for
my hon. friend's purpose; but I cannot forget that, what-
ever may be the present division of religious opinion in
this country, those churches are, after all, national struc-
tures. They were intended to serve the purposes of a
national church ; and the maintenance, at all events, of
those fabrics appears to be a national object. I think it
ought to be your first provision, and not your last, to en-.
devour to find some mode of maintaining those churches,
and having found that mode, it would be most agreeable to
every one to see that this particular species of support—
namely, church rates —which is the cause of vexation and
ill-will, being no longer necessary, was by common consent
to be abolished. But as the question stands at present I
certainly am not prepared to give my willing consent to
the total and entire abolition of those church rates with-
oct any substitute, and without any compensation. (Hear.)
If a division should now take place upon the subject, I
must, in consistency with my opinions, give a vote against
the introduction of this measure. (Hear.) The house is
not very full, and it may be that my hon. friend may bo
successful in:his motion for leave to introduce his bill; but
as his principle is clearly declared I should feel more at
liberty, if he were to succeed upon this occasion, in
opposing) the second reading of the measure, after having
declared my objections to' it in the beginning, thanif I
had silently allowed it to be introduced. It is not, after
all, of vital interest to the Church that this amount of
revenue should be collected in the way in which it is
now collected, or that it should be applied exactly in
the way in which it has hitherto been applied. Notwith-
standing all that has been said of the falling fortunes of
the Church, I have that belief in the attachment of the
majority of the people of this country to that Church,
that even if it pleased Parliament totally to abolish these
church rates, I think means would be found (cheers and
counter cheers) by the landowners, by the gentry, and by
men of all orders who belong to the Church, to supply the
revenue which would then be wanted. (Hear, hear.) It
is not, therefore, from a belief that the Church would by
the mere abstraction of so much revenue fall into decay,
that I am opposed to legislation of this kind ; but I do
think that if such a bill were to pass both Houses of Par-
liament, it would be a symptom that Parliament was
not disposed to give that support to the Established
Church which it has hitherto afforded it. I think that a
concession upon this point, without the smallest considera-
tion of other means of settling the question—of what was
the state of the law—of what was due to the Church—l
think that such a concession—that such an absolute sur-
render of the claims of the Church, would be a symptom
that in any future attacks on the same establishment the
assailants would be likely to obtain the support of Parlia-
ment. (Hear, hear.) I cannot, therefore, assent to the
proposal that is now before us. Whether or not my oppo-
sition to this motion may be successful to-night, I feel
assured that a bill of this kind cannot pass through
Parliament in the present session. (Hear, hear.) I
think that the question, surrounded as it is with
difficulty, requires further consideration. I have no
doubt that a measure might be framed—and such a mea-
sure has already been repeatedly under the consideration of
governments in this country—which would meet thejustice
of the case, and which, if it were passed, would greatly
tend to diminish, at all events, the popular complaints
which are made against church rates. But that such a
measure would pass through Parliament I own I have very
great doubts. lam afraid that no measure could be found
which would not meet with the opposition either of the
Church on the one side or of the Dissenters on the other.
I am afraid that it will be, not only difficult, but almost
impossible to frame a measure which, founded on prin-
ciples of justice and impartiality, would meet with general
approval and support. I know the pains that are taken
by those who agitate the country, whether they belong to
the Church or whether they belong to the dissenting bodies
—I know the pains that are taken to defeat measures
which seem measures of compromise and of equal justice to
both parties. I have found with regard to measures which
I thought most beneficial to the Church, that a hot oppo-
sition has been offered to them on the part of the Church,
and that those measures have been almost defeated by
that opposition; and I am bound to confess, on the other
hand, that measures which I thought beneficial to the
Dissenters, but which in their opinion tended to give too
much to the Church, have been vehemently opposed on
their parts. In fact, we live in times when these differ-
ences—differences sometimes on points of Church govern-
ment which are not very considerable in themselves, and
differences at other times on questions of the greatest im-
portance with regard to religious belief—l say we live in
times when differences of one or other of these characters
divide this country and produce the most violent excite-
ment, and an exhibition of the greatest array of party
passion and antagonism. Such being the case, I am not
sanguine with regard to the success of any measure which
the Government might frame, and which they might hope
to introduce in another session of Parliament. But this I
will say, that I should think that if I were to give
my willing assent to a bill for totally abolishing church
rates, without any sort of compensation or any sort of mo-
dification, I should be setting the example of a concession
very dangerous to the Church Establishment, and when I
say the Church Establishment, I believe I may say to the
general interests of the country. (Cheers.)
The house then divided—

For the introduction of the bill
Against it
Majority
The announcement of the numbers was followed by con-
siderable cheering.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill, and it was
subsequently read a first time.
The Industrial and Provident Societies Bill passed
through committee.
The Church-building Acts Amendment Bill, as amended,
was considered and agreed to.
The report of the committee of ways and means was re-
ceived.

STAMP ACTS.
The report on this bill was brought up and received.
INCOME TAX (No. 2) BILL.
The Income Tax (No. 2) Bill, and Consolidated Fund
(8,000,0001.) Bill, were severally brought up and read a
first time ; the latter being ordered for second reading
to-morrow (this day).
The house adjourned at a few minutes after 10 o'clock.

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