The Sun.
London, England, 1854-06-13 00:00:00

TItE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 13, 1854,

largement); South Wales Railway; West London Rail-
way.

The New Forest Bill was read a second timo and order
to be committed.

PETITIONS.
Petitions were presented by Mr. COBDEN, from a place
in the West Riding, against church rates, and another in
favour of the ballot; by Alderman CHALLIS, from Fins-
bury, in favour of the ballot ; by Mr. A. PELLATT, from
Staines, praying for the abolition of church rates ; by Mr.
H. BERKELEY, from Cheltenham and Maidstone, in favour
of the ballot; by Mr. G. BALL, from a Dissenting body in
Cambridgeshire, praying for the total abolition of church
rates ; by Mr. BANKEs, for Dorset, in favour of ocean
penny postage ; by Mr. M. GIBSON, from Gloucestershire,
in favour of the ballot ; by Mr. HEIDLASI, from the medi-
cal practitioners of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, in favour of the
London University Medical Graduates Bill ; by Serjeant
SHEE, from places in Ireland, in favour of vote by ballot.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-(YESTERDAY.)
STAMP DUTIES.

On the question of going into committee on the Stamp
Duties Bill,
Mr. HUME deprecated the bill as regarded certain
enactments respecting bills of internal revenue and fo-
reign bills of exchange. He considered if this bill passed,
and they laid a tax on foreign bills of exchange' it would
do a vast mischief to the commerce of this country, which
was the depot for the money trade as well as the produce
of the world. He should therefore move, when the house
went into committee, to strike out the clause which would
iwpoee any tax whatever on foreign bills of exchange.
Mr. J. M`GREGOR objected to the differences made
in the schedules of this bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said as
this was a bill for amending the stamp duties, he thought
it would be for the convenience of all parties if the house
first went into committee, and then discuss the clauses of
the bill. (Hear.)
The SPEAKER then left the chair, and the house went
into committee on the bill.
On clause 3,
Mr. HUME said this was the clause he objected to, and
on which he intended to take the sense of the committee.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it would
be much better to wait till they came to the schedules.
Mr. GLYN said, though he might perhaps be inclined
to say that etaxes were injurious to commerce, yet at
the present "Me he thought it would not be expedient to
ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to dispense with the
revenue which would be derived from the tax on foreign
bills of Exchange. If this tax were to operate on the foreign
relations in commerce of this country, he should be very
careful to sanction it. But where could be the risk to our
commerce of charging is, per cent. which this bill would
impose on foreign bills of exchange? (Hear.) He should
support the clause as it now stood,
Mr. MA.STERMAN expressed his dissent from the prin-
ciples of this clause.
Mr. W. BROWN disapproved, of the stamp on foreign
bills. The amount of taxation proposed to be imposed by
this measure was larger iu fact than it appeared at first
sight. Every transaction would necessitate at least three
bills, and consequently three stamps. Thus instead of a
tax of Is. per cent., one of 3s. per cont, would virtually be
imposed.
Mr. WILSON said that this was far from being a new
tax, or a very great additio* to existing taxation. At
present all bills drawn in the United Kingdom upon firms
out of the United. Kingdom—representing of course no
small part of our export trade—wpre subject to rites of
duty much higher than those in the present measure.
Thus, a bill above 300/. and under 5001. was chargeable
with a stamp duty of 45., whereas.by the present bill the
duty varied from Is. to la. Bd. ; in fact, it was not until
the high amount of 3,000/, was reached that the duty
proposed in this measure equalled what was imposed
under the existing law. It was, therefore, no new element
in taxation to stamp foreignbills of exchange, and i
making a great reduction in the stamp upon the whole
mass of bills circulating in this country, it seemed only a
reasonable thing to ask that all transactions, as far as pos-
sible, should contribute to our taxation. Iu former times
there might be some reason for exempting bills drawn out
of England from duty, on account of the difficulty of hav-
ing the bills stamped. Now, however, the introduction
of adhesive stamps had put an end to difficulty in that
case. In fact there was no reason whatever for exempt-
ing foreign bills, if a stamp duty on instruments of that
class were to be imposed. He asked the committee to
recollect to what precision and facility of accounts the in-
troduction of bills had led. A. periodical settlement was
arrived at, and a bill drawn for the balance. This bill
could be discounted, and thus a man was enabled to use his
capital more constantly, and so carry on business at a less
profit than could formerly be done. Why should not this
be extended to the small tradesman as well as a large capi-
talist? At present the stamp duty utterly prevented it,
but the more moderate scale fixed by the present measure
would put the matter on a proper basis. Again, it had
been held out that this measure would destroy London as
a money market. The committee must be aware that
stamp duties of this nature existed at Paris and at Amster-
dam, and yet those cities were second only to London as
money markets. But he believed that those who enter-
tained any fear upon the subject were a comparative few,
for memorials in its favour had been received from the
leading men of London, Manchester, and Glasgow,
Mr. J. B. SMITH, though he thought some parts of the
measure under consideration deserved commendation, dis-
approved of taxing foreign bills.
Mr. AFGREGOR thought that if a commodity were
taxed at all, it ought to be taxed irrespective of its origin,
and that a bill of exchange, if subject to any stamp duty,
ought to bear that duty, wherever it might happen to be
drawn.
Mr. T. BARING thought that every member of the
committee would agree that if there was no evil to com-
plain of and no remedy to be administered, it was unwise
to disturb existing fiscal arrangements. The evil com-
plained of was, that bills of exchange purporting to be
foreign bills were really drawn in England, and thus were
valueless in the hands of innocent holders. Now, this
evil might ho met by allowing such bills to be stamped as
inland bills, if it were made out satisfactorily that the
holders were innocent. But the measure under considera-
tion would not meet the evil. Those who would issue in-
land bills as foreign ones would not be prevented by the
present measures. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Wilson) had
stated that duties like those under consideration were
levied in France ; but it was quite otherwise in Prussia
and Austria. He thought that now we had removed all
restrictions from commerce it was strange to propose a
new restriction on comtnereial pursuits.
Mr. WILLIAMS would have no objection to see all
stamps on bills of exchange abolished. But as he under-
stood the matter it stood thus :—ln order to reduce the
rate of bills of exchange generally it was necessary to put
a duty upon foreign bills. This being so he had no objec-
tion to the measure. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
it desirable to remind the committee of the meaning of the
vote which they now called upon to give, for hetbought that
the observations of bon. members tended to complicate the
matter. This was not a new tax, it was the equalisation
of an existing duty, and the removal of an exemption
which ought not to exist. Ho went on this principle iu the
first place, that all trade, whether between one country and
another, or between the country and the towns, was but
barter. In the second place he went upon thisotherprinciplo,
that it was very desirable—not for fiscal objects only—that
the basis of this barter or exchange should be worked
through the means of bills of exchange. Now, in order
to do this it was desirable that the present high rate of
duty on bills of exchange should be reduced. The hon.
member (Mr. T. Baring), said that we had gone upon the
principle of removing all restrictions on our commerce ;
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had not been aware
that such had been the principles of the hon. member—
(laughter)—but it was upon that footing that this bill pro-
ceeded. It was to remove the shackles upon trade, and
put home and foreign commerce upon a firm footing. In
late times the House of Commons had removed shackles
upon the foreign trade of this country, they were now
about to remove impediments to the home trade. The
fact was that the present duty upon inland bills of ex-
change amounted to 2,3, 4,5, and even 6 per cent. (Hear,
hear.) Tho hon. member (Mr. Williams) had said that it
might be better to remove the fetters upon the home trade
without imposing any duty upon foreign bills, but the an-
swer to that was perfectly simple. It could not be done,
because Government could not, under present circum-
stances, diminish the revenue of the country. If the com-
mittee chose to negative this clause relating to foreign bills
of exchange it would be impossible for him to persevere
with the great and important change which he proposed
with reference to inland bills of exchange.
Mr. J. B. SMITH asked the right hon. gentleman what
amount he expected to raise upon foreign bills.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
believe that any man in England could give a reliable
estimate, but it was calculated that the foreign bills
drawn upon this country amounted to about 200,000,000/.
per annum, and the duty would be a shilling per cent.
Mr. SANDARS objected to the proposed tax upon fo-
reign bills.
Mr. JAMES MACGREGOR insisted that the tax would
be equal to 2 per cent, upon the bills draw*. Ho advised
the committee to take a lesson from the United States, and
apply their free system to bills of exchange.
Mr. HUME said he, for one, was prepared to do that.
Mr. MUNTZ was decidedly in favour of the proposed al-
terations with regard to inland bills, but he objected in toto
to placing a tax upon foreign bills. True, the amount was
small, but it would be none the less onerous.
The committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the clause 173
Against it
The clause was accordingly agreed to, as were also clauses
from 5 to 8 inclusive.
Mr. VANCE moved to leave out clause 9, relating to ex-
emption from receipt stamp duty by letters acknowledging
receipt of bills, &c., repealed.
After a short conversation the clause was postponed.
Clauses 10 and 11 were agreed to.
Clauses 12, 13, and 14, were agreed to.
On clause 15, which empowers the commissioners of In-
land Revenue to require an affidavit,
Mr. HENLEY said it would put the party to expense.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said that
the commissioners of Inland Revenue, on looking at the
instrument, might have a knowledge amounting to cer-
tainty that the true coesijeratien for which it was granted
was suppressed, arid it was in this case only that they
could call for au affidavit? this was the object with which
the clause was framed.
Mr. HENLEY said that ho merely referred to the ex-
pense of requiring the affidavit. It was not necessary to
send the parties to a solicitor. Any person could count
the number of words in the instrument.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the clause, as it was
proposed, was mere merciful and less costly to the party
than if the suggestion of the right hon. gentleman were
adopted.
After a conversation, in which. Mr. Mullings, Mr. G.
Butt, and Mr. Phinn took part, the clause, as amended,
was agreed to, as was clause 16.
On clause 17,
Mr. VANCE complained of some peculiar burden to
which the Dublin pawnbrokers were subject, under an old
act of Geo. 111.
Mr. WILSON said it was quite true they had to pay
1001. in Irish money in order to carry on their trade ; but
they did not pay this to the Imperial exchequer, but to
the city of Dublin, which had chosen, instead of rating
the inhabitants generally, to lay a tax of 1001. a year on
pawnbrokers. (Laughter.) The pawnbrokers of Dublin
did not complain of the stamp duty, but were grateful for
its reduction by one-half. The Government had thought
they might reduce the duty in Dublin to the same amount
as was paid in provincial towns.
The clause was then agreed to, as was clause 18.
On clause 19,
Mr. VANCE objected to that part of the clause which
gave the public the opportunity of going to the stamp office
and claiming the discount on stamps to the amount of 51,
The result of this would bo to injure the sellers of stamps,
who would hardly find it worth while to keep their shops
open.

pen.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the

reduction of the limit at whioh discount might be claimed
had been made with reference to the decreased amount of
the stamp duties. It would be much better to leave this
matter to be settled between the Government and the

sellers of stamps.
The clause was then agreed to, as were the remaining
clauses.

Mr. PHINN moved a new clause—" That every instru-
ment liable to stamp dnty shall be admitted in evidence in
any criminal proceeding, although it may not have the
stamp required by law impressed on or affixed thereto.
Agreed to.
The house then resumed- •
Mr. VANCE asked if any reduction was contemplated
in the stamps on agreements for submission to arbitration ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said ho had
received no representation on the subject, and he did not
mean to propose any reduction in the present bill,

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

The house then went into coiiiinittee of supply, com-
mencing with the vote of-
-250,0001. for certain charges formerly paid out of the
county rates.
Col. DUNNE called attention to the inequality of taxa-
' tion imposed upon Ireland. It was said that the amount
voted for the police was an equivalent for this. lie had
always understood that this payment was given by Sir R.
Peel as an equivalent for the repeal of the corn laws, Ire-
land being peculiarly an agricultural country. The police
in Ireland was not a police in the ordinary sense. He be-
lieved it to be a wholly unoonstitutional force ; its numbers
were not voted by Parliament as were those of the army
and navy; and before long he hoped that the state of the
county would allow ofdits reduction. Sir R. Peel, in what
might be called his settlement with Ireland, had promised
to relieve the counties from half the expense of convicts and
prosecutions, and some other expenses _connected with the
poor-law boards. But England had already been relieved
in those respects. At this moment there was 246,1951
granted to England and Wales, in relief of the county
rates for the maintenance of convicts, while the whole sum
granted to Ireland had only been 46,0001. In Ireland, too,
no expenses had been allowed to witnesses out of the Con-
solidated Fund, except in those cases which were called
" crown prosecutions:" He thought that the Irish people
had a right to demand a committee of inquiry into the
whole subject.
The vote was agreed to.
17,3061. for the inspection of the prisons of the United
Kingdom.—Agreed to.
371,9331. for the Government prison and convict esta-
blishments at home.
Sir J. PAKINGTON wished to know whether, in con-
sequence of the adoption of the system of penal servitude,
the Government intended to make any alteration in the
period of separate confinement with each person sentenced
to transportation had to undergo.
Viscount PALMERSTON said that the period of sepa-
rate confinement was formerly one year and sometimes
more. It had, however, appeared to him from information
ho had received from persous engaged iu the management
of prisons that that long period was likely to be injurious
both to the mental and the bodily health of the persons by
whom it was undergone. (Hear, hear.) It had therefore
been reduced to nine months as the maximum, but in eases
in which from the peculiar construction of the individual
even that period was likely to lead to any permanent in-
jury, a discr4ionary power had been allowed to shorten
the time. There were two very opposite opinions held by
persons employed in the management of prisons with re-
spect to the separate system. Some held that it was almost
invariably attended with the most beneficial effects, that
it afforded time for reflection and opportunities for exhor-
tation to reform ; and that, except in cases of weakly per-
sons, the effect was universally good. Others again thought
that it threw too great a strain upon the mind. (ILar.)
He (Lord Palmerston) believed that the truth lay between
the two ; and that to persons of strong constitution the
period of separate confinement often proved most salutary.
Mr. HENLEY asked if the noble lord could lay before
the public the documents upon which he had founded the
opinion he had just expressed ?
Lord PALMERSTON said it would be difficult to give
the grounds upon which he had arrived at the decision he
had stated; for he had come to that conclusion, to a great
extent, upon the verbal communications which he had had
with persons in charge of the different prisons. The plan
adopted was to subject the convict first to separate confine-
ment in which he had little communication with the offi-
cers and none with the rest of ,the inmates. Next, he was
associated with the other prisoners, with whom he was now
allowed some intercourse, and lastly he was sent to Port-
land or some other place where he could be employed on
the public works. In county-prisons, if properly conducted
there should be a certain part arranged in separate cells,
in which the criminal could hold communication with the
officers of the prison, the chaplain, or the person employed
in teaching him a trade. But there should be another part
in which the prisoners could be associated together; and
there should bo a discretionary power in the governor as to
the period at which each person should be removed from
the one part of the prison to the other.
Mr. HENLEY believed that public opinion had of late
been undergoing a considerable change in the direction
pointed at by the noble lord ; but he thought that the per-
sons on whose communications the noble lord had acted,
ought not to shrink from making a public report for the
information of those on whom the responsibility of sen-
tencing persons to imprisonment devolved.
Sir J. PAKINGTON concarred in the views of the
noble lord, and asked how long the new plan had been
acted upon.
Lord PALMERSTON—Since last autumn.
Mr. PALK asked whether the same system was pursued
at Dartmoor as at Pentonville ?
Lord PALMERSTON said that persons were sent to
Dartmoor who were not strong enough for the public
works. He believed that the separate system was an essen-
tial part of the reformatory process, provided that it was
not carried too far.
Mr. MACARTNEY said the statement of the noble lord
would be read with great alarm in Ireland.
Mr. NE WDEGA TE called the attention of the Govern-
ment to a case in which a notorious malefactor bad been
released from prison on the understanding that ho was to
bo received in some person's employment. The man, how-
ever, did not stop in that employment for more than three
or four weeks, and there was too much reason to fear that
he had relapsed into his former licentious habits. He (Mr.
Newdegate) wished, therefore, to ask the noble lord what
regulations had been adopted to obtain some security that
convicts released under similar circumstances should re-
main in their employment for some given period ?
Lord SEYMOUR reminded the committee that they
were told last year that transportation had ceased, but he
had been astonished to find when looking at the estimate.
that whereas the sum asked last year in respect of tran-
sportation was only 69,5181., the present vote was for
94,7651. On the other hand, supposing that transporta-
tion had ceased, it might reasonably be expected that the
expenses of establishments at home would be increased,
but the votes showed a decrease, last year being 407,0301.,
and the present 371,0001. The figures being so opposite to
what might be expected, he should be glad of a few words
in explanation from the noble lord, as he thought that so
momentous a change as was now taking place in our ky s-
tein of banishment ought to be fully understood by the
house.

Sir J. PAKINGTON wished also to put another pies-
, tion. He desired to know how the present remnant of
transportation was carried on. It seemed that a certain
portion of prisoners were transported, and it was desirable
that the principle should be understood on which the
selection was math).
Lord PALMERSTON said that when a prisoner was
released it was of course difficult to take any positive
security that ho would find employment. Sometimes
an application was made for a pardon, which was granted
to a prisoner whose offence was not serious, on con-
dition that his family would find employment for
him. Of course Government could only go upon the
representations which were made in such inquiries as the
circumstances of the case afforded. When a pardon was
granted all control over the discharged prisoner was at an
end. But in case of a ticket of leave, there was a hold over
the party released, for if he misconducted himself the very
condition on which he was released was broken—for the
ticket of leave was granted on the proviso that he should
be liable on misconduct to be called back again to complete
his term of penal servitude. He (Lord Palmerston) was
glad to state that out of the considerable number who had
been released, a very small proportion had been guilty of
misconducting themselves, and in those cases means had at
once been taken of bringing the parties back to the public
works from which they had been sent. With regard to the
question of the noble lord (-3eymour) the excess of the pre-
sent estimate arose principally from the increased price of
provisions abroad in Australia. There was, however, every
reason to think that the substitution of the present system
of imprisonment for the old system of transportation would
tend much to decrease the expense of prisoners. It would
of course necessitate an increase in the accommodation, or
rather the means, of lodging prisoners. With regard to the
system of transportation still existing a certain number of
prisoners—about 900—were proposed to be sent to Austra-
lia in the present year. Those were selected who were
thought likely to be most useful in the colony. The selec-
tion was not made on the ground of the offences which
were committed by the parties.
Capt. SCOBELL remarked that the salaries for last year
were but 60,0004., while this year they were 71,0001., al-
though the number of convicts was 3,000 less.
Mr. HENLEY said it appeared from the' statement of
the noble lord (Palmerston) that all the best of the prison-
ers were sent abroad and all the greatest rogues left in Eng-
land and then turned loose on society. Hshould like to
know how many of these rogues were so turned loose ; as
9,0001. was charged for them it could be no small number.
Mr. FITZROY said that in the course of last year 1,194
prisoners were discharged, and out of this large number it
had only been found necessary to revoke the tickets of
leave of three. The item of 9,0001. rose in this way—it
was thought desirable to give the persons discharged the
means of returning to their native place, and also enough
to purchase necessary clothing. During their term of im-
prisonment a certain portion of their earnings was put by
for them according to their conduct. Thus, for the first
class, 9.1. a week; for the second, 6d. ; and for the third,
3d. per week was retained. This money was given to them
upon their discharge in order that they might not come
upon the world totally unprovided for. Notice has been
taken of the increase of salaries in the vote. This arose
from a reason to which reference had already been made— '
the increased price of food and other commodities in Aus:
tralia.

•
In answer to Mr. HENLEY, •
Mr. FITZROY said that in a case where transportation
for seven years had been awarded, three years' penal servi-
tude was considered equivalent--a conditional ticket only
being given at the end of that time for the remainder of
the term.

Mr. SPOONER observed an entry in the estimates under
the bead special services, in these words, " Provision for
Roman catholic priests, 5501." He wished to ask an ex-
planation of this, and to know what these special services
were. Also, as this was a perfectly new vote, he should
like to know if it was to be a continuous ene.
Lord PALMERSTON—I suppose the hon. gentleman
wants really to know whether Catholic priests are to be
allowed in prisons. (Mr. Spooner shook his head in dis-
sent.) Well, then, all that is to be said is that the 5501.
is for Catholic priests who are attending convicts in catho-
lic

Mr. SPOONER wished to know whether the vote refer-
red to Government prisons only ?
Lord PALMERSTON replied that the estimate was for
the attendance of priests upon Roman catholic prisoners
in Government prisons.
Mr. SPOONER thought that answer very unsatisfac-
tory. (A. laugh.) If Roman Catholic priests were to be
paid, why not the ministers of other dissenting sects ? A
man had already a right to send for the minister, whatever
sect he belonged, but the minister was not to be paid.
(Laughter, and ironical cheering.) This was, in fact, pay-
ing for what the Sovereign declared in her coronation oath
to be a blasphemous, false, and a dangerous deceit. He
knew no reason why he should say more on the subject.
(Laughter.)
Lord PALMERSTON said, though he might not bo so
vehement a Protestant as the hon. gentleman opposite, he
flattered himself he was as sincere an one. If violent
speeches in that house, if hard words and cutting off of
estimates, could convert all their fellow-subjects, he should
join with the hon. gentleman, and vote for his motion;
but, unfortunately, neither the hon. gentleman's efforts,
nor his, if ho were to join him, could have the effect that
he desired. And, therefore, as it happened that they had
a large proportion of their countrymen who were Catholics,
he thought it better to treat their religion with respect,
and to give to those who were of that faith the means of
becoming better Christians than they might happen to be
in the condition to which they were reduced. The hon.
gentleman was mistaken in supposing that the principle on
which this vote was founded was new, because the system
had been in practice for several years at Millbank. At
Millbank there was a regular allowance to a Catholic priest
for attending the convicts. The convicts on arriving
declared themselves whether they were Catholic or Protes-
tant. Those who were Catholics were regularly attended
by the Catholic priests, who performed divine service to
Period during which the man was confined W give & 1191?