The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-27 00:00:00

- -
t h have the example and —w en you .
that number 70,000 are Protestant children, and of that which. can,be. made in that system which will not be
number of Protestants there are 26,000 belonging to the injurious to i
expo-
Church of England. The hon. member for Meath sayst thereef riaseanignceedoffetrwtehnitsy-iteseq-ouhyTearusp—enwhlevnhiethherreeliians
reliance
eo
can
nashone
is great inconsistency in those who advocate the system of
it
placed, except the opinion of the hon. and learned gentle-
mixed education in Ireland not being prep
to England. But the circumstances of thar9etdwioeman the memberforth,e,talUenipvhearsaitteymoeff
mixDubelidne,dtuhertattietnh,e,
England there is an is to be abandoned, but which phantom I have shown is a
countriese
meit t '
are entirely different. In England theE members of e time has arrived when .
Church constitute the majority, but in n
tto the successful than that which embraces within its sphere a
infinite variety of sects opposed to the Establishedg Church reality—(hear, hear)—l ask, can you have a system more
the youth of the country than that of
—(hear)—and the system here has been. to gran
the members of the dif- any country in Europe ? For these reasons Ido sincerely
Church, and to the bodiE sdissentin,g fronathe Church sepa- larger number of
rate grants of money9u order that
atel In Ireland the highly inexpedient to assent to the motion that has been
ferent sects may be educated separately, and that religious hope that the house will agree with me that it would be
education should also be given.separ y
' Clrellms • tances are very different.. There.. the members of been made to-night. (Cheers.)
the Established Chur-li are a small minority; the members Mr. WHITESIDE said he had endeavoured to gatlur
of the Roman Catholic Church constitute the immense from the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down the
majority—(hear, hear)—and. the endeavour has been, by reasons on which he resisted the very moderate motion of
the exclusion of all religious teaching from the system of
joint education, to combine in one common system the his hon. and learned friend. The' answer of the right hon.
leers of different creeds. (Hear,hear.) Now it is irn. - gentleman was that the system of the National Board of
Education in Ireland, though in danger, was faultless, and
polnertmant that th.ere should be no doubt as to the original
that the more it was inquired into the more its advan-
princi ' 'pie on which the system was fouhdhed ; and I contend
there can be
In the
no mistake whatever with respect to the in-
tages would appear; but the right hon. gentleman, tentions of Earl Derby in founding. that system..
not-
original statement of this plan, and in the plan itself as it withstanding, contended that that system would be in
peril if a fair and honest inquiry was instituted into its
The introduction
originally was recorded, provision-was made that the in- • • .
struction should be altogether secular. working. He (Mr. Whiteside) believed that the hon.
of the Scripture extracts was subsequent to the original
formation of the system. It formed no part of the o member for Meath spoke the truth when he said that the
rigi nal
plan, and even now the Scripturei extracts are not enjoined National Board was lately on the very point of dissolution.
as a portion of the teaching n those schools. They are He believed also there never was a time when inquiry into 1) •
permitted
to be taught subject to an absolute
.veto on the this s
stem ycould be conducted with greater benefit than
part of the parents of any one child who may object to the at the
present moment. With regard to the present pa-
use of the been
of these extracts. Such is the rule now—such has tional schools, he might state that upwards of 2,000 of
the rule from the vei7 first commencement.system. them were in the yards of Roman Catholic chapels—a fact
Now it has been said that the late Govern- which indicated clearly enough the character of the
(Hear, hear.)
ment were not unwilling to have promoted an inquiry of schools and the kindofeducation •
chil-
this description if it had been brought forward by some d
independent member. I am afraid that. neither of the byterian children separately and almost exclusively ;
members for the University of Dublin, considering And it was a curious fact, and might be regarded as a
their relation to that Government,could have been compliment to the Established Church, that her schools
the mover or seconder of such an inquiry during the
were attended by about 40,000 Roman Catholic children,
existence of the late Administration. But was it ne-
while very few were to be found in the schoolsl of the cessary for Earl Derby, if he wished to alter the system,
Church of Scotland. The reason assigned
to have an inquiry before a committee in order to aver-
Lain the success or failure of that system ? We have parties was, that the people belonging to the Established
it it from himself that he, the author of the measure, having
the deepest interest in its success, occupying the highestthe art of the Roman
Church were half Papists ; but he thought that was a mis-
take. (A laugh.) He might suppose on p
station in the Government, conferring with the Lord Lieu- wrong to Catholics, that it was .
they objected wholly
tenant of Ireland, making every inquiry which he might to the reading of the Scriptures in their schools, because he
think necessary—we have it from himself, in his place inthe Bible to the people of th •
knew many parishes where the Roman Catholic clergy pre-
Parliament, that he, having made those inquiries, having rented the Douay version of
carefully deliberated, came to the conclusion that no ma- ownt
flock.
(Hearlreland ; hear.) It had been said that certainanted to C
force Roman hols to
terial change could be effected in the system consistently Laardiethemauthorised version. H thee
denied it. Even the
with its maintenance. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the Kildare-street Society did not dare to propose anything of
hon. and learned member for the University of Dublin, I the kind. He subscribed himself to a school which main-
believe lam correct when I state that, when ho was first tained, about two years ago, 150 children, of whom 55
a candidate for the representation of that university, about were Roman Catholics. The Scriptures were read every
the year 1847, he was most anxious, in his address to day in the school ; no party objected to it ; and he was
those whom he was desirous of calling his constituents, to not aware that any of the Roman Catholic children had by
impress upon their minds his feelings with reference to
the
abandoned their religion. The motion before
this system ; and, if I mistake not, these were the words
the house was commenced by justice and fairness. He
of his address - -"I am thoroughly averse to the delusive asked for inquiry into the system of education. If it was
system of Irish national education. (Hear, hear.) No sys- proved to be sound, let them maintain it ; but if they
tern, as I conceive, can prosper in which the word of God could make it better, he hoped they would not refuse the
• is not sincerely honoured as the greatest blessing to a modifications desired by the Protestant people of Ireland.
nation. Remember that the word from above is first pure, (Cries of " divide.")
then peaceable, and you cannot compromise its authority. Mr. FAGAN moved the adjournment of the debate.
(Hear.) Now the hon. and learned gentleman, on becomng (Cries of "no, no," and "divide.")
a member of Earl Derby's Government, I have no
doubt
honestly suspended his opposition to the system. No doubt Lord J. RUSSELL opposed the motion for an adjourn-
he had every reasonto believe thatsome inquiry would be in. ment. .This was a question upon which the house had fre-
stituted. Pending that inquiry he with perfect honour re- quently deliberated—all its merits were sufficiently before
mained a member of that Government. After Earl Derby the house. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned gentlemen
had come to the conclusion that no change could be
who.. had conducted the debate on the other side had stated
effected, it is not for me to inquire what course he oug t
to have taken. But he continued to hold office, and I cons the whole case in the most powerful manner against the
sider his speech to-night to be perfectly consistent with his present national system of education. The hon. and
hostility to the system. (Hear, hear.) It appears to me learned gentleman who last sat down had stated that
most extraordinary that the two principal promoters of what the Protestant clergy of Ireland wanted was that
this motion, representing the University of Dublin, should
be in this eculiar position. They represent a university they should have the power of reading the Bible in the
which does give to -the rich of Ireland a purely secular authorised version to Roman Catholic children as well as
education without the slightest tincture or admixture of to Protestant children. He was glad the hon. and learned
religious teaching—(hear, hear)—and yet they are the per- gentleman had stated thus openly and frankly the object
sons who are the most prominent in denying to the poor of ,
Ireland the very benefit which the learned body whom of the motion now before the house. It was true that
they represent has conferred, and will, I hope, long con- object was implied in the nomination of the committee.
tinue to confer, upon the upper classes. (Hear, hear.) The house would observe that what the hon. gentleman
The speech of the hon. member for Meath is a striking opposite wanted was, not a general committee to inquire
practical illustration of a truth, for which on former occa- what had been the operation of the national system of
sions I have contended, and which, I think, it is most
desirable the house should bear in mind before it consents education in Ireland, but a committee to introduce into
to this inquiry, which is subversive of the principles of a that system the modifications to which reference had been
mixed education. It is this, that the great body of the made during the debate. Well, supposing the house were
Protestant clergy in Ireland concur with a very large por- to agree to those modifications, surely it would not be
tion of the Roman Catholic priesthood in Ireland in ear- denied that the Roman Catholic priests should have a
nestly desiring to overthrow this mixed system, with the power similar to that given to the Protestant clergymen—
view of obtaining separate grants for the purpose of pro- that they should have the right to teach Protestant children
selyti zing, and teaching in conformity with their respective the Roman Catholic doctrines which were contained in the
creeds. (Hear, hear.) Now what is the fact? lam formularies of their Church? Now he asked the house
speaking from the authority of others, but I have whether the effect of this would not be to destroy the
reason to believe that there is a marked difference mixed system of education in Ireland ? Agree to the pro-
between the priesthood and the laity of Ireland, with- posal of the honourable and learned member who intro-
out distinction of creed. The Protestant Bishop of duced the motion, and they would have to establish at
Waterford (Dr. Daly) is known to be most hostile to this least two separate systems—one Roman Catholic, the other
system of mixed] education. I believe, notwithstanding Protestant—and each endowed perhaps to the extent of
the Ecclesiastical Titles Act, I may say that the Roman 100,0001. or 120,000/. Why this would be raising a new
Catholic Bishop of Waterford partakes of the same hos- Maynooth question. (Hear, hear.) As the subject had
tility. They both are opposed to the system of mixed been sufficiently discussed already, he certainly should
education. But the laity of Waterford, both Protestant oppose the motion for adjournment. (Cries of " divide.")
and Catholic, are most anxious for the establishment at Mr. KIRK, who vainly attempted to address the house,
Waterford of a model school in connection with the mixed presented a petition from the dean and inhabitants of Dro-
system of education. (Hear, hear.) They have presented more, in favour of the national system of education.
a memorial to the board to that effect, and I believe in Mr. CONOLLY having seconded the motion for adjourn-
pursuance of the wish of the laity that a model school of ment,
that description is about to be established. (Hear, hear.) The house divided, when the numbers stood thus :
Now what has been the result of this system of mixed For the adjournment of the debate
teaching ? I believe that there is no country in Europe at Against
at this moment where education is conducted on so large a gajority —234
scale, or I would say, notwithstanding religious differences, For Mr. Hamilton's motion
where spiritual knowledge is so widely diffused by teaching Against
as in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) I contend that a clergyman Majority against the motion —7o
of the Established Church the patron of a school under SOUTH SEA AND OTHER ANNUITIES COMMIT-
the national system in Ireland, has at this time every op-
TATION BILL.
portunity of administering to the youth j.n that school of
which he is the patron, not only instruction in the Holy The CHANCELLOR of the RXCHEQUER moved the
Scriptures, but instruction in the ChurCh Catechism and third reading of the bill.
Mr. SPOONER hoped that the right honourable gentle-
in all the particular doctrines of the Church of England,
m
to the utmost possible extent he could desire. (Hear, man would not press his motion at that late hour. His
hear.) If it be not during the hours of secular instruction, honourable and learned friend the member for Suffolk (Sir
day by day he has the opportunity and right of adminis-
Fitzroy Kelly) had a notice on' the paper in reference to
tering religious instruction to all the members of his this bill which he would not be able to bring forward if
church who attend that school. And that right is not the third reading were taken that night. He begged to
peculiar to him. Every minister of a different persuasion, move that the house do now adjourn.
whether Presbyterian or Catholic, has the right of attend-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
ins that school, and of administering religious instruc- the hon
use
tion day by day to those who will take it. (Hear, hear.) in the house ble and learned member for Suffolk had been
at the commencement of the evening, and had
But what is really the pretension of the Church Education said that he would be prepared to move his amendment
Society ? (Hear, hear.) It is neither more nor less than that night.
this : They put in on the same footing as the claim of Sir JOHN PAKINGTON said that when there was a
the Dissenters of England. The Dissenters of England, if notice of an amendment on the paper it might have been
they send their children to the national school must allow fairly concluded by honourable members that so important
them to be taught the Church Catechism. That is the a measure would not be pressed to a third reading at so late
rule of the National Society. The state of the national an hour.
school in Ireland is exactly the reverse. The child would The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
not be taught the Church Catechism there ;it need not that, after the distinct declaration of the hon. and learned
receive any religious instruction from which the parent gentleman the member for Suffolk, they bad no right to
dissents ; and the real desire of the Church Education So- presume that he would not have attended in his place to
ciety in Ireland is to obtain aid from the public purse for bring forward his motion.
the purposes of teaching all those who shall attend that The house then divided on the question of adjourn
school a creed from which the larger portion of the popu- meat :
lation of Ireland dissents. (Hear, hear.) I warn the house For the adjournment
from yielding to this motion ; it is not in a covert sense Against .
seeking to dissemble the desire of abandoning' "the phan-
tom of mixed education," but it is for the purpose of esta-
blishing a separate system with a separate grant ; and
what will be the consequence ? The claim put forward by
the hon. member for Meath will be irresistible . the claim
of the Roman Catholics to a participation in 'that grant
will be in reference to their numbers, and that claim, too,
will be irresistible. The largest proportion will be given
to the Roman Catholics, and the smallest to the Church of
England ; and you will have the flame of religious discord
spreading throught the country, and a proselytising spirit
unhappily adding to the evils and sorrows of that country.
I believe, instead of a system of peace and concord, you
will have unfortunately a great aggravation of all the evils
and sorrows of the country. (Hear, hear.) Now, I think:
something was said by the right hon. gentleman tee mem-
ber for the University of Dublin with respect to the opinion
of Dr. Chalmers with regard to mixed education. It is
true that Dr. Chalmers thought that secular education
without any intermixture of religions teaching, was incom-
patible with the good of the community? I think I have
here the opinioa of Dr. Chalmers on this very point, re-
corded within a very short period of his lamented death ;
and, with the permission of tho house, I will read his
words :—" During tee last few months of Dr. Chalmers'
life (says his biographer), the subject of national education
was much upon his mind, and the following was written
about a week bef,,re his death. Dr. Chalmers says on this
subject—' I would suffer parents to select what part of edu-
cation they wanted for their children, and would not force
arithmetic upon them if all they wanted. was reading and
writing ; and as little would I force any part of the reli-
gious instruction given in the schools if all they wanted
was secular education.'" (Hear, hear.) That was the
opinion of Dr. Chalmers. Now, will the house permit me
to read the opinion of Archbishop Usher, a still higher
authority, on this very point? Archbishop Usher said, the
state of the country was much to be lamented, when the
people generally were suffered to perish for want of know-
ledge ; adding " the consideration whereof bath sometimes
driven me to treat with those of the opposite party, and
to move them, however much we may differ in other
things, to join together in teaching those main points, the
knowledge whereof is necessary unto salvation, and of the
truth whereof there is no controversy." (Hear, hear.)
' Now, I feel satisfied if Archbishop Usher, having given
expression to those opinions, were now alive, that he, the
Primate, would be the patron of the National School
Society of the city of Arrtlagh. That is my firm convic-
tion. But I say, mixed with all this system of religious
difference, there lurks a degree of political difference.
Something was said about the examination before the
committee of 1830. I was a member of that committee,
and perhaps you would like to hear a specimen of the
evidence given before it on this very question as to the use
of the Bible among the poor in Ireland. A witness said
as soon as the system warannounced meetings were got up
in every town of Ulster, at one of which Lord Roden
presid.ed ; the people were led to believe that the Govern-
ment were about to take their Bibles from them ; and at
that meeting they carried their Bibles with them, and after
it was over gun clubs were established, for the purpose of
enabling the peasants to protect their Bibles. (Laughter).
Mr. ISAAC BUTT—What is the name of the witness?
_ Sir J. GRAHAM—The evidence will be found in the
question and answer numbered 7,687 and 7,688. lam not
aware of the witness's name at this moment, but if the
heno w
ho
tirai glen and learned gentleman will go into the library,
flee t
think I show t'
(An ironical Laugh.) Again, I say, I
this semblanj°4 that there does lurk under the whole of
political animositreligious difference a hitter ingredient of
s, speaking
Trench says. starßeY. et me also read what the Rev. Mr.
he lived—" Thee •of the town in which
e is a national awl and a Church Edu-
i d both of them • '
cation school • Seriste
pture extreets
school I found
were read ; I asked the
, in the national
school whether the Scrip-
replytorethat ? " Oh,•no, sir; we are a 4,celirol"
(Laughter.)
What was the
if they eon-
Now, I say this house will act raw enli'erye;
la and with the
sent to this inquiry, moved reasonsforwthili
intentions, hardly dissembled,
this evening. I am quite satisfielyetahrsa,tyetrsen!,ysatveZeodf
which we have had twenty two
wrought infinite good in Ireland. Is it sterrriessencee' ashas
happily the population of that country has beeennkinis-
by nearly nearly two millions; and do the numbers attending
national schools diminish in the same proportion? - theC
l
the contrary, during all the period of the last four years,
while the population has been diminishing, the numbers
attending the national schools have progressively anti
largely increased. In the last year, when emigration has
been at the greatest height, the number attending the
schools has been larger than ever before was known, and
that number exceeded 25,000 children. When, therefore,
Lord Derby, the author of this system, and who has lately
had an opportunity of controlling its operation, has, e
you deliberately that he cannot contemplate any change

57

Majority against the adjournment ... 37
On our re-admission to the gallery we found
Sir J. PAKINGTON moving the adjournment of the
house.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
this was a question with respect to which every day's
delay was matter of most serious inconvenience. (Hear,
hear.) Here were parties the whole foundation of whose
property was to be changed to the amount of :10,000,000i.,
and they could not know the terms under which it
was to
be changed until the bill had become an act of Parlia-
ment, when it would be the duty of the Treammy to state
the terms under which the Exchequer bonds would be
issued. Under these circumstances he certainly felt great
difficulty in consenting to the further postpone inent of the
third reading. (Hear, hear.) The absence .of the hon.
and learned member for Suffolk was as much a matter of
regret to him as it was to honourable gentleman opposite.
Mr. SPOONER thought there was good reason for not
proceeding with the bill that night. There was a very,
important point connected with the measure still unde-
cided, and that was the situation in which the trustees
were placed by it. Trustees for reversionary interests, as
the case stood at present, had the power of altering and
disposing of this stock without the consent of the persons
who had that interest. The right hon. gentlem en had said
that he did not wish to change the law, and that it must
be left exactly as it had bee:before. In every other pro-
position of a similar kind which had been made to parlia-
ment, trustees had been obliged to act according to the
provisions of the new law, but under this measure they
might take any one of three courses. A clause, he
thought, should be introduced, preventing theta from act-
ing without the consent of the person who had the rever-
sionary interest.
Sir J. Y. BULLER said it was clear that i f the right
hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequel• would not
give way, the house would be involved in a debate upon
the third reading of the bill, and as he thought this would
be most unadvisable he would move that the deb ate should
be adjourned.

Th© SOLICITOR-GENERAL said.that in consequence
of communications which had taken place with the hon.
and learned member for Suffolk, a clausehad bees I. prepared
to accomplish the object desired by the hon. member for
North Warwick (Mr. Spooner), namely to restrain trustees
for parties having a limited interest from accepting the ono
particular portion of stock that would have the el Teat of di-
minishing the capital without the consent and approbation
of a judge of the Court of Chancery. There was a. clear un-
derstanding that the bill should pass through its final stages
that night, and he was sure that the greatest posible desire
had been shown to meet the wishes expressed by h.on. mem-
bers on the other side of the house.
Mr. NEWDEGATE having briefly supported the ad-
journment,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
it was perfectly vain to proceed with a bill of thi s kind in
the face of such a determination as was manifested by
hon. members opposite. He, would not, therefore, waste
the time of the house by pressing it, but he could :not with-
draw the motion for the third reading without entering his
protest ;against this proceeding. The hon. an! learned
member for Suffolk (Sir F. Kelly) having made an express
declaration on this subject, disappeared from the house.
It was alleged that he had done this because it was half-
past one o'cock. but the hon. and learned member was not
in the division which had taken place; and then honour-
able gentlemen come forward with their presumptuous
suppositions and interpretations, flatly in contradiction of
the intentions which the hon. and learned member had
stated. (Hear, hear.) Ho should propose now to read the
bill a third time, inserting the clauses, and making the
amendments he had to propose, and then to let the final
stage of the bill stand over, in order to give the hon. and
learned member an opportunity to move the additional
clause of which he had given notice.
Sir J. PAKINGTON disclaimed any intention to offtr
an unfair opposition to the progress of this bill ; his con-
viction was that there was some misunderstanding on the
part of the hon. and learned member for Suffolk. If tie
final stage of the bill were fixed for the follcos ing day,
(Wednesday) no delay could be occasioned, as the hill could
be taken up to the House of Lords on Thursday, and that
branch of the legislature did not sit on Wednesday.
After a few words fromldr. HENLEY,
Sir J. Y. BULLER withdrew his motion for the ad-
journment of the debate.
The arnendmentsandhe additional clauses proposed by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer were then inserted in the
bill, which was readthird time, it being understood that
the final stage shou!da..ltabe a'cen this d when the honour-
able and learned member for Suffolk would have an oppor-
tunity, on the motione heiaatute,
the addition of a
new
of wdhoipchassl;': ohfa :moving
notice. notice.
The house then adjourned at a quarter to two o'clock.