The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-30 00:00:00

by seven years would he said amount to about 2,500,0001
but he contended that that country would gain 1,500,000
by the transaction. Now whether the income tax would
be repealed at the end of seven years•had nothing to do
with the question. The question under consideration was
the readjustemnt of the burden of taxation between the two
countries, and if he (Mr. Moore) could prove that the bal-
ance, the proportion which subsisted ever since the union,
would now be altered to the debit or loss of Ireland, to the
extent of 300,0001. or 400,000/., it would not matter whether
the income tax should be taken off at the end of seven
years or to-morrow. The whole amount of the remission to
Ireland would be 564,2871. The income was expected to
produce 460,0001., the spirit duty 198,0001., and the legacy
duty 267,0001.—making altogether 925,000/.—leaving a
balance against Irelamt of upwards of 350,0001. (Hear.)
In addition to that Ireland would sustain a loss of 150,0001.
by the remission of the duty on butter. He did not mean
to say that it was not right to remit such a tax, but in
proposing new taxes such a remission ought to be taken
into consideration. (Hear, hear.) The Irish people were
now watching over their liberties and honour, and if a
dissolution should occur, many hon. members would be
found shaking in their shoes. (Laughter.) This was the
last Parliament in which they would permit their rights
and liberties to be trampled upon. (Cheers.)
Mr. JOHN BALL said, as the honourable member had
thought proper to attack him—(cries of " spoke, spoke")—
and as he understood another honourable gentleman in-
tended to do so—(spoke, spoke)—he did not desire to waste
the time of the committee, but trusted that he might be
allowed to say one word. (Hear, hear, and oh, oh.) It
was somewhat remarkable, and not very creditable, that
when Irishmen differed in opinion, they generally thought
it necessary to indulge in personal insinuations—(hear
hear, and oh, oh)—and to impute base motives to those'
who differed from them. (Spoke, spoke.) If he could
condescend to imitate the tone of the honourable gentle-
man who had just addressed the house, he perhaps might
succeed in saying disagreeable and offensive things, he
might succeed in inventing imputations. (Hear, hear, and
oh, oh.) He would simply say this—he was of course un-
known to the great majority of the house. (Hear, hear,
and laughter.) But although unknown, be believed the
humblest member was entitled to defend his personal
honour. (Cheers.) Although unknown to the house, he
was content to allow time to settle the question so far as
he was concerned. He would allow honourable gentlemen
to say as offensive and disagreeable things as possible. He
would allow their speeches to go over to Ireland, and was
satisfied they would not have the slightest effect so far as
he was concerned. (Hear, hear, and oh.)
Mr. JOHN MACGREGOR said the immediate question
before the house was the imposition of the income tax for a
period ending in 1860. He agreed with the Chancellor of
the Exchequer in regarding the income tax as an engine to
work great events. When it was first proposed by Sir R.
Peel, it was to enableihim to do great good to the country,
as well as to maintain the national credit. At that timß
there• was a deficienbY of about 2,000,0001., arising from
various circumstances. Sir R. Peel succeeded in supplying
that deficiency by means of the income tax, and also suc-
ceeded in conferring those benefits on the country which
would ever be remembered. (Hear, hear.) He admitted,
enhesitatingly, that the income tax was not levied so fairly
and equitably as it might be ; but he thought it could
scarcely be imposed more equitably without making it
more inquisitorial than it was at present. The income t#
did not exceed 6,000,0001., and in imposing that tax the
Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to deal with the tea
duties, amounting to about the same sum, with the spirlit
duties, and with a variety of other taxes on articles of con-
sumption,
on yielding a revenue of 32,000,0001., and he d d
not think it would be a great hardship on those who h
the ability to pay to contribute for seven years to an i -
come tax of 6,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) He trusted t e
income tax would not terminate in 1860, and that bef e
Id
that period the Government would be able to remit ma y
taxes much more objectionable. He fully approved of t e
abolition of the soap duties. He considered a partial -
duction of Excise duties most objectionable, because su h
reduction did not remove the restrictions on trade and gi e
the consumer the full benefit of the change. It was n
that ground that he last year opposed the reduction of t e
malt tax, believing, as he did, that the consumer wo d
not derive any benefit from the reduction. (Hear.) Wi h.
regard to the objections that he had made to the extensi n
of the income tax to Ireland, he regretted that t e
hon. members from that country who had spoken upon t is
subject had placed themselves in such a humiliate g
position as they had done in resisting the proposal of the
Government. (Hear, hear.) He admitted that Irelalid
had been subjected to great oppression by misgovernment,
and regretted that the Act of Union had not been accom-
panied by the removal of religious disabilities and qie
establishment of the principles of political and civil liberty
in that country. At the time of the union the debt of
Ireland amounted to about 30,000,0001., but between that
period and 1816 it was increased to about 130,000,0001.
The then Chancellor of the Exchequer found it very
inconvenient to pay a certain sum out of the taxes of
Great Britain to meet the interest of the Irish debt, raid
accordingly, in 1817, he consolidated the English and Irish
Exchequers. Since that period this country had paid, pn
account of the interest of the Irish debt, no less a sum
than 45,000,000, which, added to the principal of the debt,
and deducting the expense of the army and constabulary
in Ireland, brought out a total sum of about 200,000,0001.
Such was the state of the debtor and creditor account be-
tween the two countries. He regretted to state that up to
the time when Sir Robert Peel came into power in 1835,
Ireland was most oppressively and unjustly governed ; but
since that period the Governments of Earl Grey, Lord
Melbourne, Lord John Russell, and Sir Robert Peel had
done all they could to ameliorate her condition, and he
believed the present Government was anxious to do the
same. (Hear, hear.) A few days only had elapsed since
that house passed the Clergy Reserves Bill, and he believed
they could not long go on in Irelandwithout a re-adjustment
of the Church revenues in that country. (Hear, hear.)
He wished also that in every other respect the people ,of
Ireland should be placed upon exactly the same footing. as
the people of this country, and he lamented exceedingly
the course which had been adopted by the Irish members
with regard to the extension of the income tax. He be-
lieved they could not put Ireland iu a satisfactory and
prosperous condition until the Irish members did that
which the Scotch members had at all times endeavoured
to do since the union of Scotland with England—agree
among themselves upon all great national questions.
(Hear, hear.) He did not expect that in Ireland, or else-
where, they could be entirely separated from those divi-
sions which were incident to party ; but there were great
questions affecting their own country upon which they,
ought to be unanimous, and instead of resisting the intro-
duction of the income tax in the spirit they had evinced,
they ought to have considered whether they should not
assume the high and proud position of saying that they
would pay their fair share of taxation in return for the
benefits they had received, wore receiving, and would
continue to receive. (Hear.) In Scotland, notwith-
standing the original barbarism of the country, the barren
and sterile nature of the soil, and the great obstacles in
the way of trade and agriculture, the people had, by dint
of perseverance, industry, and energy, attained to a pros-
perous and independent condition, and were now paying
without a murmur every tax that was paid in England.
(Hear.) lie found from the works of Sir John Sinclair,
published in 1835, that three-fourths of the whole revenue
of Scotland had been paid into the Imperial treasury since
the Union, one-fourth having been sufficient to pay for the
whole expenditure of the country, civil, judicial, and ad-
ministrative, and also for the expense of collection. Since
1835, a still larger proportion of the revenue of Scotland
had found its way into the Imperial Exchequer. Such
had been the result of unanimity and industry on the part
of the people. He made these remarks in no invidious
spirit, but in the hope that the people of Ireland would do
what the people of Scotland had done, and would act in a
more harmomous manner in discussing great questions af-
fecting their own interests. (Hoar, hear.) He would now
refer for a moment to the budget. He had no hesitation
in saying, in the first place, that he considered some por-
tions of it defective—(hear, hear)—but, taking it altogether
ho believed it to be the most important budget, with the
exception of the great free-trade budget of Sir Robert Peel,
that had ever been presented to that house. The sweep-
ing reform that was proposed in the Customs, accompanied
by the improvements that were to be introduced into the
administration and management of that department of
the public service, would be of the utmost advantage to our
commerce. The reduction of the duties on butter would
also be of groat benefit, though he did not believe the fall
in the price of these articles would be to such an extent as
was anticipated. With respect to the reduction of the tea
duty, he was glad the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
adopted the course which he proposed at the commence-
ment of the session, and resolved to reduce the duty on
tea to Is. per lb. in three years. That was a wise and
proper measure, for he believed that the increased im-
portation of . ea from China would not be sufficient to
justify a greater reduction. He was convinced that at
the end of three years the proposed reduction would
be of immense advantage to the commerce of the country,
that it would greatly increase the consumption of tea,
and that the wives and children of poor labourers
instead of having only hot water drink, would have good,
strong, wholesome tea. (Hear, hear.) He now came to
the Excise. The remission of the duty on soap would re-
move the presence of the exciseman altogether, enable the
manufacturer in this country to supply the whole world,
increase the trade with Africa for palm oil, and to diminish
the traffic in slaves, be of groat service to our cloth manu-
facturers, and, above all, promote the health, comfort and
cleanliness of the people. With regard to stamps, ho re-
gretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not boldly
abolish the tax upon receipts altogether, while, with re-
spect to the advertisement duty, he could not cordially ap-
prove
the course adopted in that matter, inasmuch as by
retaining one-third of the tax they would still keep up the
whole expense of collection, without getting rid of the dis-
satisfaction which prevailed on the subject. In remitting
the stamp upon supplements, the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had done right ; but he did not think that untaxed
supplements should go through the Post-office without
paying postage, inasmuch as there were other papers that
were entirely devoted to advertisements, but which would
still be subjected to the stamp duty, although containing
no news whatever. He trusted that this part of the scheme
would be modified ; if not, he was afraid it would create •
much dissatisfaction. He thought that the extenesaiosunroef
the legacy duty to real property was
a very
fvrllatthe'r levied
though he was of opinion that such a tax,
upon real or personal property, was not fountof Ewnisgdlanomd.
It was a tax of the nature of which the peep
had always complained, and which waseimilardtnoetodhemfeaugdnaal
exactions that created the resistance which pro
Charts. Perhaps, however, the proposittiioenabolfetohnee
attiiemiller of the Exchequer was the only p ac
present moment ; but ho trusted that at the ernedgnolfara few
rs it would bo transformed into a more
yea
upon the rents and profits of property of every description.
He believed that the financialbl reasnuldtsporforneetlvued,gtehtawnotuhlde
be much greater, more valuable
' seemed to anticipate,
Chancellor of
though, at the same lookingtiteeh,cu forward to the possi-
during the next six or seven
bility of bad harvests
years, he thought the right honourable gentleman had
done wisely in not estimating the produce of the revenue
a
atgreater amount than he had done. He believed that
the budget would give great satisfaction to the country,
and that the commercial and other advantages accruing
from it would be such that no one would complain of the-
admitted
income tax as proposed, although be it
was not
the most just or equitable tax that could be imposed.
Looking at all the advantages that we had derived from
the imposition of the first income tax, and the alterations
the happy and
in our commercial legislation —remembering
prosperous way in which we
allmitnhae culties of the last eleven yearsg beariknilughhi that,diffi-
while other countries had been exposed to sad disasters, we
had maintained peace at home and abroad, and extended
our commerce beyond all previous anticipations—he trusted
that there would be very little further opposition to the
adoption of the income tax as proposed, in order that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer
might
and importantghtbeable to carry the
financial
of the house, desired to ' who rose on the Opposition side
state the reasons why, on the pre-
sent occasion, he could
hon, baronet the M not support the amendment of the
'
the ipaber for • Hertfordshire, and why he
ahould vote for
measure proposed by the Government.

t--
,
When he looked back upon the last ten years, and o j rvesl'A;
the enormous benefits which had been conferred upon GSMrA:
country by the imposition of the income tax, and whenpAal
looked forward to the next seven or ten years, and estir
mated the great advantages which might be derived from
the continuance of the tax, he confessed he could: not bring
himself to vote for an amendment which declared the con-
tinuance of the tax to be unjust and impolitic. Though
it was true that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer pro-
posed to modify to a certain extent one of the inequalities
of the tax, by making a distinction between precarious
and permanent incomes, it was equally true that the
present Chancellor of the Exchequer had conclusively
shown that a sufficient distinction existed already, land
and houses being virtually charged at the rate of 9d.
in the pound, and professional incomes at the rate
of 7d. Surely the possessors of precarious incomes
could not desire a broader distinction than that. Again
the late Chancellor of the Exchequer did not propose to
make any difference in the amount of tax levied upon in-
comes from 1001. to 1501. a year. The proposal before the
house was more just in that respect, for the rate chargeable
upon incomes below 1501. was less than that levied upon
incomes above 1501. (Hear, hear.) It had been s:,id that
the tax as now proposed was unjust towards traders and
professionals • but he begged to remind the house that the
income tax of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer was
accompanied by a double house tax, which would have
fallen with great and oppressive severity upon the very
class whose interest some honourable gentlemen on his
side of the house appeared so anxious to defend against
the Government. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) It appeared
to him to be madness to drive on this matter when they
knew the honour of the Government was concerned in it.
(A cry of " oh.") The honourable member might cry
" oh," but what he stated was the fact. (Hear.)
He might
be a bad party man, but he felt that on this occasion he
was about to give at least a conscientious Note. (Hear.)
Mr. H. HERBERT said the real question to consider
was, whether it was unjust that persons possessing an
income in the prosperous parts of Ireland should be asked
to pay a tax which was imposed upon the holders of income
in England. (Hear, hear.) He believed that the proposal •
was not an unfair nor ureasonable one. The honourable
member for Mayo had said that the tenant-farmers were
indifferent to this subject ; but blind to their own interests
as the honourable member supposed that class to be, he
(Mr. Herbert) might inform him that by intelligence which
he had received that day, it appeared that in one of the
unions of the county which he had the honour to represent,
a resolution which had been proposed in opposition to the
proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been
thrown out by a large majority—so large, indeed, that
he might almost say it was unanimous. (Hear,! hear.)
He thought that this was a proof that the tenant-farmers
were alive to their interests in this respect at least.
(Hear, hear, hear). And in a recent number of the
Cork Examiner a letter had appeared, in which the writer
expressed an opinion that if Ireland were to be taxed
at all it would be better to have an income tax, which
would fall upon the persons best able to bear it, and that
any Irish representatives who opposed the present budget
would, in the event of an election, have no chance of being
re-elected by an agricultural constituency. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. member for Mayo had said that if a general elec-
tion were to take place the Irish members who supported
the !budget would tremble in their shoes. But he (Mr.
Herbert) would say that if he were to oppose this propo-
sition he should not venture to show his face on any airi_
cultural hustings in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
member for the city of Cork had argued that Ireland ought
not to have been called upon to pay these Consolidated
Annuities at all, but an argument of that kind would have
been more properly addressed to the house a few nights
ago, when this entire subject had been brought before it.
Allusion had been made to the present emigration from
Ireland, and a pathetic description had been given of the
numbers of persons who were driven out of that country
by distress ; but it was the agricultural labourers and
small farmers who were now flying in such large numbers
from the shores of Ireland, and they were the very class
who, if they remained, could not be affected by the income
tax. With regard to the duty on spirits he (Mr. Herbert)
confessed that he could see no possible objection to levying
the very highest rate of duty upon that commodity that
could be obtained with profit to the revenue. With re-
spect to the legacy duty, he could only say, that having all
he possessed in land he had no wish to keep any
exemption
to which he did not believe himself entitled, and as to the
statement that this duty would break down the landed
aristocracy, he must say he did not believe it. He was of
opinion that nothing exercised a more wholesome influ-
ence on the country than the landed aristocracy, but they
must not endeavour to retain that influence by means of
an odious exemption, which was not founded on reason
and justice. He should certainly give his vote in favour
of the budget with a clear conscience from feeling that he
was no longer to enjoy an exemption to which circum-
stances gave him no just claims. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. C. R. MORGAN said if this budget were carried,
which he (Mr. Morgan) trusted it would not be, it was at
all events to be hoped that the right honourable gentle-
man would continue to pay attention to the subject of land
with the view of seeing whether greater facilities might
not be given in the transfer of it. (Hear, hear.) With
regard to the advertisement duty he considered that the
right honourable gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would have acted more wisely had ho attended to
the opinion expressed by a majority of the house. If ad-
vertisements were to be taxed at all, they might fairly be
taxed when they appeared in the form of the large carpet
bag or gold nugget which now appeared in the streets. He
was unable to agree with the opinion which the honour-
able member for the West Riding had advanced, that the
imposition of the legacy duty was a benefit to the small
growers. Not being an Irish member he felt some degree
of diffidence in offering any opinion on the subject of the
extension of the income tax to Ireland. Ho considered,
however, that at the present time it was inexpenient to ex-
tend it to that country.
Mr. FORSTER was of opinion, that as regarded the in-
come tax, the aspect of the question was entirely changed
by the fact, that the committee were now only called upon
to consider it as a tax of a temporary character, and there-
fore the charge of inconsistency brought forward by the
member for Roscommon against those hon. gentlemen who
voted against the continuance of the. income tax in 1848,
and for it now, was a groundless one. He believed that
the right honourable gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had proposed measures which were well adapted
to develop the resources of the country, and so to provide
for it those means of defence which were only to be found
iu its general prosperity. (Hear.)
Lord A. VANE trusted no member would be influenced in
his vote on this question by the threat which it was under-
stood the Government had thrown out, that they would
dissolve Parliament if they did not carry their budget—
instead of taking the more constitutional course which had
been adopted by the late Government, of resigning. It ap-
peared to him that questions had lately arisen affecting the
elementary principles of taxation, and that an inquiry with
a view to the re-adjustment of the basis of taxation would
be advisable. He should be glad if some member of more
weight than himself would move for a committee to inves-
tigate the whole system, believing, as he did, that such a
proceeding would tend more than anything else to dispel
the delusion which the exaggerated statements of the
Manchester school had created in the public mind as to
the parties upon whom the burden of the taxes principally
fell. (Hear.) According to Mr. Gregg, the total expendi-
ture of the country in 1849, including the poor rates and
county rates, was 66,436,9721., of which the amount paid
by the propertied classes was, 45,644,2451., leaving the
amount paid by the working classes, 20,799,7231., the lat-
ter classes comprising as they did, three-fourths of the
whole community. The proportion paid individually by
the two classes was 11. per head by the working classes,
and 61.105. 6d. by the propertied class. Contrasting the
financial scheme of Mr. Disraeli and that of the present
Chancellor of the Exchequer, he stated that the increase
in taxation under the budget of the late Government
would have been 1,060,0001., and the remissions would
have amounted to 3,490,0001., while the increase of taxa-
tion under the present plan was 3,130,0001. and the remis-
sions 5,315,0001., and he wished especially 'to call the at-
tention of the Irish members to the fact, that their share of
the additional taxation under this budget would be
698,0001., or 453,0001. after deducting the remission of the
consolidated annuities, and including the legacy duty on
land, the increased taxation to be levied on Ireland was
753,0001. a year. Ho contended that the imposition of
the income tax on Ireland was most unjust. She had not
been subjected to it even during the war, and she was cer-
tainly not better able to bear it now that she was but just
recovering from the famine. He objected to the extension
of the legacy duty to land, considering it unsound in prin-
ciple to levy taxes on the property instead of the income of
the country. With regard to the income tax, he believed
that no finance minister would be ever hereafter able to
dispense with it. The Times had praised the financial
scheme of Mr. Disraeli, because it proposed to establish a
difference between permanent and precarious incomes ;
and yet, when "a heaven-born minister" came down to
the house, and proposed to retain it unaltered and unre-
formed, its inequalities undiminished and its injustice as
glaring as ever; nay, when he even proposed to extend it
to persons of 100/. a year, and to a country where it had
previously been unknown, that consistent organ turned
round, and bespattered him with the most fulsome pa_i_i_ne-
gyri cs and the warmest applause. (Hear, hear.) Th
Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken two hours to prove
that the land already paid 9d. in the pound, and ye* he in-
vited them to submit to an impost amounting to 2,_00q,90.
a year. The application of the tax to Ireland had been
condemned by Sir R. Peel, and by many of the most dis-
tinguished men on the opposite side ; and yet those gentle-
men wore now ready to support the right hon. gentleman
(Mr. Gladstone) in his design of extending it to that coun-
try. This might be the last opportunity he (Lord A. Vane)
to
might have of addressing them for a considerable period
place, he was in the situation in which so many
come. Even if the threatened dissolution should not tta
and seeing that so many gentlemen emen h
though guilnticeispsleofh an n
consci-
entiously been turned out, he could
mem-
bers had found themselves. He had beenvir3p
ofithonadedag
professedain,
themselves to be innocent
ille-
gal practice, ho bslheatrehatt'heir fate. (Laughter.) If
mightshould share
never regret that the last time he
conceive it quite possible
that were so, he
be right, and against that '
which he
believed to
at the hustings to oppose. He should,
pledged himself .
addressed the house was in favour of a principle
had
at all events, face his constituents with more honesty,
sense, and j
all udgment gtmbeeinrtlitvhaesn,
atnhdoswe
ewrehonohwadgocoingnclL
voedte the
for
income
grateful forthe kind indul-
gence continuance and extension. (Hear, hear, and. la
He should always feel most
with which his last observations had been received,
in opposition to a tax which he considered to
ugliter.)
be unjust,
uNnanaounstced his determination tO
rthesse
finunaenqcuaiaill
ypolicy of her Majesty's Government
Mr. P. URQUHART a ruggg
class'
asunpapthortP.
It was impossible to consider the remission of the Consoli-
apart. He thought that insition of the income tax
by the alteration. The Ireland
would
be
a great
gainer
taxes was to capitalise them onlyway of comparing the two
An-
nuities, then, amounted to both. The Consolidated
sent value of the proposed about 4,000,0001., and the pre-
which would show a l income tax was ab0ut2,500,000/o
(Hear.) Besides, they
ear gain to Ireland of 1,500,0001.
submitted to the tax, they would
stand in a much better position in case, which' God forbid,
Ireland should. be visited a• by •cala-
mities which she had • gam a repetition of the just gone through. If they refused
it now they would be compelled to take it at some future
time, when they would not be able to make nearly so good
terms. (Oh, from the Irish members.) They would be
like the Roman emperor, who was glad to give the same
price for three Sybilline books for which he might have had
the whole nine ,• and he hoped the time would never come
when they would rue the day on which they had not fol-
lowed the advice of an hon. member for Yorkshire, and
clinched the bargain with both hands. (Hear, hear.) He
would suggest, however, that the right hon. gentleman
should make an allowance for the management of estates:
(Hear, hear.) It was true that this was not done in
land, but the expense was much less ; rents yrnrri,
more regularly ; the poor rate did not annieun:
the habit of
the pound ; and tenants were not
eon,:
For his
eloping with their crops. (Laughter and en
and it world be-
own part, he preferred direct
taxation, With it, as the
to dispense
come every year less possible
°are peace had sprung up
manufactures tiehich du ring :15_3;
our OWE. (Hear, hear,)
on the continent begat, t° t2'