The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-06 00:00:00

sent income of the property amounted to 7,5001. a year.
That was not so. This property, like moat other eccle-
siastical property, was granted on leases for lives, and all
therefore at resent received from it was the reserved
rents, amounting to 3481.; of which 1441. only came info
the iands of the commissioners. -As the leases-fell in,
the property would be available to the full extent of
its value, but he was sure the honourable member
had no wish' for the house to entertain the delusion that the
income at present enjoyed amounted to 7,5001. a year. The
hon. gentleman had stated again the arrangement with the
bishops, and no doubt with reference to the previous in-
comes of the bishops the Ecclesiastical Commissioners
allowed or deducted so as to make the income a fixed
annual sum. In some cases the bishops did ultimately re-
ceive a larger amount, and in others they received less, in
consequence of the fluctuation in the fines on property.
The Bishop of St. David's had always been dean and
treasurer of the church at Brecon, and by a special act of
-the reign of Queen Anne another prebend was given him in
addition. These preferments would ultimately fall into
the hands of the Eeclesiastical Commissioners, and the pro-
perty of them formed part of that which was applied by
the provisions of this bill. If hon. members would read
over the preamble, consider the facts, and then ask for
what further information they required, he thought it
would be more convenient than to enter now upon detailed
discussions of points incidentally referred to. (Hear.)
Leave was then given to bring in the bill.
THE WINE DUTIES:

Mr. M. GIBSON presented a petition from Manchester
favour of the reduction of the wine duties.
Mr. OLIVEIRA, upon rising to bring forward the mo-
tion of which he had given notice, began by reference to
the importance of the subject, and the complicated in-
terests which were involved in it, and then went on to
observe that he could not view it as a question which
affected merely a few mercantile houses, whose monopoly
of tho wine trade ought to be thrown down, but as one
which was closely connected with the improvement of the
revenue, as well as the social and moral improvement of
the people of this country. The question was also inti-
mately connected with the international relations which
subsisted between this country and her allies, and had a
very important bearing on the interchange of domestic and
foreign commodities. A committee was appointed '-to in-
vestigate the matter last year, and though they had made
no report, the result of the evidence which had been laid
on the table of the house satisfied him that a reduction in
the wine duties was not only desirable, but would produce
a large additional amount of revenue. He regretted that,
at a period so immediately preceding the financial state-
ment about to be made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
he should be obliged to bring forward any question of this
kind, and if he had consulted his own inclinations, he
should have withdrawn the motion out of respect to the
right hon. gentleman and the Government to which he
belonged. But he found that great uncertainty prevailed
in the public mind on the subject, and therefore he hoped
the right hon. gentleman would acquit him of any discour-
tesy if he brought the matter under the attention of the
house. He should not occupy the attention of the house
by entering into statistical details with which hon. mem-
bers 'were already familiar. For the last twenty years,
namely, from 1833 downwards, the amount received from
the duty on wine had varied very little, averaging about
1,700,0001. a year. Taking into account the increase in
population, and the general diffusion of wealth during the 1
ame period, that seemed to him to be a very unsatisfac-
tiny amount. When it it was considered what a groat
increase had taken place in the consumption of other
articles, such as tea, sugar, and coffee, upon all of which 1
the Customs duties had been reduced, it was evident that ]
that the stationary amount of the duty on wine must
be attribiated to the high rate levied upon that article, 1
which operated in some sort as a prohibition upon I
ill'jportation. He believed that throughout the country
there was a very strong desire to have the duty re-
duced. In almost all the large towns which had
chambers of comment() there was a disposition to enter-
tain the subject favourably. It was said that it would
be difficult to import such an increased quantity of wine as
would make up for the reduction in the 'duty - but those
who knew what the resources of foreign countries were,
must feel that apprehensions of this kind were chimerical.
Last year 900,000,000 gallons were produced in France.
With regard to the production of Spain, he had no authen-
tic information • but the countries included in the Zollve-
rein yielded 73,00),000 gallons, and Portugal 900,000
pipes. He had received lately a letter from Lisbon, stat-
ing that the growth of the vine was very much encouraged
in consequence of their hopes that we should deal with '
them on more liberal terms. The district which furnished
the highest quality of port wines was formerly nothing but 1
a sandy desert, and he (Mr. Oliveira) being acquainted with
the district, knew that there was ample room for the pro-
duction of an immense additional quantity of much purer '
wine than was now drank in England, the Oporto wines
being brandied to gratify our supposed taste for wines of
strong quality. It was said that even if the duty on wine
were reduced, the lower classes in this country would not
drink it. He was in possession of information which in-
duced him to believe that they would drink it in large
quantities, and that it would be drank instead of spirits.
Mr. Barker, a retail dealer in Holborn, sold in glasses, .
over the counter, and small measures which his customers
took away with them, as much as a pipe and a-half of port
within a week ; and Mr. Poole, another retail dealer, near
London-bridge, sold over the counter a quarter of a pipe
of port, sherry, and bucellas within a week. He was
aware that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might contend
that it would be difficult to replace the revenue which
would be given up by reducing the duty, and he was
bound to admit that another difficulty presented itself,
namely, the amount of duty already paid on stock in hand,
which money would have to be paid back, He was told
that the amount was 500,0001. or 600,0001., but in 1825
1,000,0001. had to bo repaid by way of drawback. In the
present state of the money market, however, it would no
doubt be extremely agreeable to the wine-merchants to
have the duties repaid in Government debentures or bonds
which might be received in duties again, and thus that
difficulty might be got over without any great loss. He
would not enter into more details, but would only ask the
Chancellor of the Exchequer to view this question as one of
free trade, and he concluded by moving That this house
will resolve itself into a committee to consider the import
duties upon foreign and colonial wines, with a view to re-
duction to one shilling per imperial gallon."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Sir, both
the chaiacter of the hon. gentleman, and the manner in
which he introduced the subject, ought to make me most
anxious to avoid any appearance of discourtesy, that is, of
a reserve amounting to discourtesy, in returning the
answer which I fear I must make to his motion. I should
have been most desirous, if it had been consistent with
my duty, to give, even at the present moment, a full ex-
position of the views which the Government entertain upon
this subject. I fully agree with the hon. gentleman that
there are very strong reasons why the views of the Govern-
ment and of Parliament upon the wine duties should be
made known at the earliest possible moment. It has been
the unfortunate destiny of the wine trade, at more periods
than one, to suffer from an uncertainty in the financial
views of the Government, which inflicted upon them posi-
tive torture, dealing, as they do, in a commodity which
acquires its highest value from being long kept in store.
But the hon. gentleman has shown so much candour in
the statement which he has made that I am sure he will
appreciate my motives when I say that, having fixed a
day when it will be my duty to make known the intentions
of the Government with respect to the finances of the
country in general, it, would be a positive departure on
my part from that duty if I were to state now what are
the proposals which her Majesty's Government are prepared
to make to the House of Commons. The delay which
must take place between the sth and 18th of this month
will add but little to the evils of uncertainty under which
the wine trade at present labours. When that day arrives
I will promise the honourable gentlemen either a reduction
in the duty on wine, or else I will show him that the
Government are precluded from reducing the duty by
reasons which will take that reduction out of our power to
accomplish. At the present moment I can only tell the
honourable gentleman that there are but few words which
have fallen from him with which I do not thoroughly con-
cur. I am not one of those who think that it will be
visionary to expect a great consumption of wine among the
people of England. It appears to me that there is a grow-
ing disposition to drink wine here, in spite of the system
which has been so long pursued. Considering that wine is
one of the great gifts of Providence to man, that it enters
largely into his means of subsistence and comfort, and that
it is a competing article with alcoholic spirits, I conceive
it would be most desirable, if it were possible, make an
important, change in the duties on wine. (Hear, hear.)
The entension of trade in Europe, the breaking down of a
virtual monopoly, which we have ourselves created by
treaties made in favour of particular countries, and the
imposition of a check upon adulteration—all these objects
recommend a proposition which would bring about an im-
portant change in the wine duties. In fact, I should say
for myself that I know no article in our tariff with respect
to which the reasons for alteration are stronger than in the
case of wine. (Hear, hear.) But then it happens, most
unfortunately, that strong as the reasons are for an altera-
tion are, the difficulties which stand in the way of that
alteration are equally pre-eminent. It would be absurd to
make a trifling alteration in the duty in the case of wine
—(hear, hear), while by making a great alteration the re-
venue would suffer to great extent.
Mr. OLIVEJ_RA : It would be made up in a short time
—in two years.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER : I should
be very glad to find it so. I have a great respect for the
honourable gentleman's word, and almost an equal respect
for his opinion. But here is a revenue derived from wine
amounting to 1,750,000/. • and I must confess that, with
such a revenue, I should like either to see a surplus to that
amount, or else some very good security indeed that the
amount lost by reduction would be regained by increased
consumption. I frankly own and admit that I do not
think that the honourable gentleman' has made out his case
on that vital and essential point. The position of honour-
able gentlemen in the house and of persons out of the house
is this, that you will rapidly recover the income which you
will lose by the reduction of the duty, the honourable gen-
tleman predicting that it will be regained in two years,
while others assert that it will be recovered at once. Now,
this is a matter of opinion either way, and I confess I
should like to have some good and sufficient security for
the fulfilment of the honourable gentleman's prediction.
As a matter of opinion, however, I may state the grounds
on which I demur to accept that prediction, and that is,
that I do not think that the taste of the country is revo-
lutionised or even modified materially in a day. Some
assert that the constitution of the English palate will pre-
vent such a change as the honourable gentleman desires.
I do not say so myself, but I see that the long prevalence
of a fiscal system has produced certain results, and I think
that you will not alter the national taste except in a course
of years. We consume at present, 6,000,000 gallons of
Port wine annually, from which we derive an income
of nearly six shillings a gallon. (Mar, hear.) Now, if
we are to have an income from this source equal to ud
which we are asked to give up, we must consume 36,000,000
gallons annually. I think that we cannot have that quan-
tity consumed until the national taste has become so greatly
modified and altered that it is really transformed. I think
the hon. gentleman himself will hardly say that such a
change in the national taste would take place place in a
short time. I confess that to me there is the knot of the
question. If the loss to the revenue can be made good it
is a very simple one, but if the reduction of the duty on
wine to one shilling a gallon cannot be effected without a
large loss to the revenue, you find yourselves involved in
difficulties, originating out of recommendations for tie re-
duction of other duties, which are alleged to be of greater
importance to the interests of the community. Even if you
assert that the income from the wine duties.only
will re-
quire a few years to recover itself, you must be prepared
to confront those who say, and say truly, that for a million
a year you may reduce the tea duties, and abolish that
most mischievous duty on soap. (Hear, hear.) Consider-
ing how many beneficial changes may be made by the re-
mission of taxation in various directions, I must say that,