The Sun.
London, England, 1853-06-03 00:00:00

This advantage would be lost by the adoption of the ( that his rent was under the valuation. Some provision
amendment. I might be necessary to meet that case. (Hear, hear.)
The
I. BUTT moved a third - . - Colonel DUNNE, who rose amidst loud cries of clause was postponed accordingly.
" Divide," said the bill was unjust throughout ;it began 1 Mr.
.clause, the necessity for
by taxing Ireland in a higher proportion than this country which
.he admitted had been in great measure removed by
was taxed, and this injustice was carried out. It was well alterations already made. Its object was to provide, that
known that in some cases landlords never got any rent at . wherever the special commissioners adopted the option of
all • and they would be in a worse position after this bill assessing the tenant, the latter should only be assessed to
pass' ed, as it would make the country poorer. (Hear, hear.) the amount which he would himself be entitled to deduct
The He should support the amendment, believing it would tend fro his
lan
CHAdlord.objected NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER to
to mitigate the injustice of the measure.
m
The committee then divided— the proposed enactment. It would afford only an insignifi-
For the amendment 66 cant amount of relief, at the expense of a great deal of in-
Against it 94-28 convenience and expense.
Mr. BUTT would not divide the committee, and with-
The clause was then agreed to. drew the clause.
On clause 15, in answer to Mr. I. BUTT, Sir D. NORREYS gave notice that on the third reading
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said when he should call attention to the wording of the 13th and
officers were appointed for collecting, the tax in Ireland, 31st clauses, with a view to render their language more in-
the officers of excise might be made available in some cases ;
telligible.
but these were matters of detail which must necessarily be In answer to a question from Mr. SPOONER,
deferred.
.3
' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
Mr. BUTT thought there would bp/extreme difficulty in the power of distress was indispensible in the case of small
carrying out the clause. There were no assessors of "taxes holdings, but, the rents being paid at short dates, the
in Ireland. The 18th clause provided that the assessment tenant could reimburse himself.
under schedule D should be made by the officers of inland The preamble was then agreed to, and house resumed.
revenue ; but that provision did not extend to schedule A. CUSTOM, &c., ACTS.
He thought an additional clause would be necessary on The house went into committee on this bill.
bringing up the report, or on the third reading. Mr. I. BUTT presented a petition from the cork-cutters
On the next clause, clause 16, of Dublin against portions of the bill.
Mr. F. FRENCH objected to power being given to sell
Mr. MITCHELL had a question to ask, the answer to
the estates of an Irish landlord for the payment of this which migh save some trouble. He had given notice of a
tax, the same remedy which was given under the poor law. motion to reduce the duty on foreign raisins to 10s. the
So unconstitutional a power ought not to be continued cwt., according to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's
without necessity. A noble lord in the other house had original proposal. Perhaps the right hon. gentleman
said that no minister would ever dare to propose such a would now tell whether he intended to accede to that re-
thing in England. duction.
Mr. H. HERBERT said the landlord's estate might ac-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
tually be sold under the poor law for the debt of another when government first published the resolution, he was
party—that of the abs6onding tenant. He wished to know under the impression that raisins would be of great use in
whether power would be taken to sell the property under mitigating tie scarcity of currants, and on that ground the
this bill.
resolution was proposed. But after that period the hon.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the member gave notice to reduce the duty on currants, a pro-
sole object of the clause was to provide an easy remedy. (A posal to which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could
loud laugh from Col. Dunne.) The gallant colonel (said not accede. He should have been delighted to do so had
the right hon. gentleman) may adopt any mode of proceed- there been the slightest chance of benefit to the consumer,
ing which he pleases in this house. I have seen quite or recovery to the revenue, but the accounts of the supply
enough of the insulting manner in which he conducts him-
were such as to put these results entirely out of the ques-
self not to be moved by it. (Hoar, hear, and no.) I must tion. There was a sort of currant famine, so that the loss
say I think the loud laugh wish which he has received my on reduction would have been sheer loss without any corn-
statement was insulting. (Hear, hear.) pensation. Menacing accounts of the raisin crop had also
The CHAIRMAN.—I think the right hon. gentleman arrived, of frosts and flights of locusts, but better news
will see that this is an expression which he ought not to had come since, and it appeared that the frost, instead of
use. destroying the raisins, destroyed the locusts. ( Besides that, he understood that there was an immense
A. laugh.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Oh, I will
withdraw it readily ; but I must insist on being protected stock of low quality raisins in bond in this country, which
against such a course of proceeding. -
would be available for consumption at a low duty. For
Col. DUNNE said that his laugh was not directed these reasons he had determined to accede to the motion of
against the right hon. gentleman, but was in consequence the hon. member for Bridport. (Cheers.)
of an observation made to him by an hon. member near The resolutions remitting the duty on foreign cables and
him. (Laughter.) cordage being put,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER - I beg the
Mr. MITCHELL said he did not intend to oppose this
hon. and gallant member's pardon. The right hon. gen-
resolution, but trusted it would be followed next year by
tleman proceeded to say that it would be for the commit-
the remission of the duty on wood.
tee to consider the best course of proceeding. It might
Lord J. MANNERS said that this duty protected a
be that the remedies provided by the poor law were the branch of domestic manufacture; and its repeal was not
best ; but that was a practica 1 question, and one for the called for by any interest. He should, therefore, oppose
committee to consider. the remission.
Lord NAAS said it was difficult to find out what really
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
were the powers given by this bill ; it referred to another the duty, although light, involved heavy customs regula-
act, in which a third act was cited. He would suggest
tions, the operation of which prevented freedom of trade.
that the same powers should be given as were given in the When goods were entirely free, there was nothing neces-
sary but a search to ascertain that they were really' what
original poor law, and would move an amendment to that
effect. . they were described to be, but when a duty was paid there
Sir J. YOUNG said that in England the corpus of the
were various stages expensive to the revenue and obstruc-
estate could not be sold for arrears of poor rate ;in Ireland tive to the traffic. The remission of these small duties had
it was different, for, by a process of law, the estate itself prevented that increase of expense in collection which
might be reached. He did not think the amendment of might have been expected from the vast increase in our
the noble lord would give a sufficient remedy, as the origi- commerce.
nal poor law was very defective in this respect. The Mr. NEWDEGATE considered it a great waste of
point might be considered before the third reading of the revenue to take off duties on articles when the duties were
bill, and some words introduced to meet the noble lord's not oppfessive.
view ; for it certainly was not the intention to sell the Lord J. MANNERS said when they remitted an excise
estate itself. (Hear.) duty, they were enabled to dispense with the services of
After a few words from Mr. NAPIER, the collectors, and thus to save the cost of collection,
Mr.whereas when they repealed Customs duties they could not
ExchequerM'Al AhHadOeNertinaqinuirmeans
whetherof
exacting
the Chancellorthetax off
rtohme
dispense with the services of Custom House officers, ant'
every acre assessed to it, and of protecting the district from consequently could not effect a saving in the cost of col
a new assessment in the event of a defalcation on the part lection. With a view of testing the opinion of the corn
of the collector ? ' mittee he should take a division.
Mr. GROGAN had no doubt means would be found to The committee then divided—
enforce the tax when it was levied, but he objected to the For the proposal
landlord being called upon to pay on what he did not Against it
receive.
Colonel DUNNE thought protection should be given
against defalcations on the part of the collectors appointed
by the government.
Mr. M`MAFION intimated that he had prepared an
amendment to tarty out his view in regard to the defalca-
tion of collectors.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER suggested
that it should be brought up on the report.
Mr. WMATION consented, and
Lord NAAS having withdrown his amendment,' the
clause was agreed to.
Clauses 17 and 28 were agreed to.
On clause 29,
Sir J. D. NORREYS observed that this clause enabled
the holders of ecclesiastical tithe rent charge to claim
allowance on account of the poor rate. He wished to know
whether the lay tithe rent charge would be entitled to do
the same ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
clause referred to ecclesiastical bodies only. He, however,
recommended the hon. gentleman to put the question at a
future stage.
After a few words from Mr. GROGAN,
Sir J. YOUNG said that the lay holder of tithe rent
charges would be in precisely the same position as the
holders of ordinary rent charges.
The clause was agreed to, as were the following clauses

Majority for the Government 126
On the article "pictures," on which it was proposed to
remit the duty. . .

Lord J. MANNERS said ho thought the remission
would be absurd, and that maritime constituencies would
have great reason to complain if this duty were taken off
and the tax on marine insurance retained. As the only
effect would be to diminish the revenue of the country, he
should take a division the question.
• The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
but express his surprise and regret at this opposition.
(Hear, hear.) The greatest danger of the present age was,
perhaps, utilitarianism, and parliament was expending
large sums of money with the view of cultivating the taste
of the people. (" Oh, oh," from the opposition.) He was
surprised to find that remark received with jeers. (Hear,
hoar.) The question was not simply whether they should
part with, two or three thousand pounds a year, but whe-
ther it was desirable to make the people familiar with the
works of the great masters in art. It was because he be-
lieved the culture of the eye to be valuable to a nation
that he proposed this remission. Statues were already
exempt from duty, and be should have thought that the
noble lord, who had set himself manfully against the utili-
tarianism of the age, would have been the last man to
oppose the placing of pictures on the same level. (Hear,
hear.) He was convinced that there never was a propo-
sition more in unison with the House of Commons.

to 39.
The remaining clauses were then agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
now to bring up several new clauses. The first was one to
which he had referred early in the evening, and which was
in substitution of the one proposed by the hon. member
for Horsham. It entitled landlords in Ireland to claim
repayment of the tax paid on rent lost by the bankruptcy,
insolvency, or absconding of tenants, and he had added
the words "by the land being left waste." (Hear.)
Mr. SPOONER did not mean to oppose the clause, but
merely to say that its principle was the same as the pro-
position he had made that landlords should not be called
on to pay income tax on rent which they had never re-
ceived. The right hon. gentleman bad opposed that pro-
position, and he wished to call his attention to his having
adopted the principle and ask him to extend it to all land.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—It was
refreshing to him to be found fault with for having dealt
more kindly with English than with Irish landlords, for
hitherto he had heard of nothing but the immunities en-
joyed by English over Irish landlords. This was no doubt
an advantage the Irish landlords possessed over the English,
who only enjoyed the right as regarded houses. There was,
however, some inconvenience in levying the tax in the
same form in Ireland as in England, and considering that
the Irish landlords were made primarily liable to the tax,
he thought on the whole that there was a balance of
advantage.
Mr. G. M. BUTT suggested that there should be some
definition of the word "insolvency" so as to make it include
cases of assignments to creditors and deeds of composition.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was
assured by the legal adviser of the Board of Revenue that
the word would bear that legal sense ; but he would look
into the matter before the third reading.
The clause was then agreed to and added to the bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The next
clause had been suggested by an hon. member. It amended
the position of parties with regard to the assessments in
schedule A, and referred to England. If on an appeal
there was any dispute about the annual value of the land,
the commissioners now had power to order a valuation,
and this clause was for the purpose of extending that ad-
vantage to the parties appealing, who would be enabled to
require a valuation to be made; which power they did not
hitherto have. _ _

Mr. NEWDEGATE thought the remission far more
likely to benefit the epicure than the labouring man. It
was the last glimmer of an ignis fatuus.

Lord J. MANNERS said afte-r the eloquent appeal of
the right hon. gentleman hon. members might be surprised
to learn that the great inducement which he offered to the
people of this country to study the works of the great
masters was the removal of a duty of ls. 6d. on a Cor-
reggio, or a Titian, and of an additional duty of 8-10ths of
a penny per foot. (Laughter.) When ten or eleven thou-
sand pounds had been recently offered for a picture for
the National Gallery, he would leave the committee to
judge what effect this remission was likely to have on the
taste of the people. (Hear, hear.)

The committee then divided
For the item
Against it .
On the article of raw apples,
Sir W. JOLLIFFE advocated an equalisation of the
duties on all foreign fruits.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
it would be a very good thing if all these fruits were
entirely free, but there were certain necessities in regard
to raising revenue. The principle upon which a variable
duty had been imposed was this—upon the more perish-
able fruits the smaller duties were placed.
Mr. VANSITTART moved that the Chairman report
progress.
After a few words from Sir W. JOLLIFEE,
The CHAIRMAN put the question, which was nega-
tived without a division.
Mr. TOLLEMACHE protested against the alterations
proposed to be made in the duty upon cheese. He moved
that butter and cheese be excluded from the list of articles
to be dealt with. _ .

Mr. A. PELLATT thought that the present duty upon
butter and cheese would bear alteration better than that
upon any other article in the list.
Mr. GEORGE observed that since the introduction of
free trade, the farmers of Ireland had turned their atten-
tion to pasture, and he could not therefore but look upon
it as unfortunate that the present time had been selected
for reducing the duty on butter by one half. (Hear.)
In reply to Mr. SPOONER'
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
when Sir Robert Peel fixed the duty on 'butter at its pre-
sent-amount, he apprehended he did so with the intention
of its being unfixed at a proper time. (Hear, and
laughter.)
Mr. SPOONER said that the result of their legislation
would be to destroy the whole productive power of the
country.
The Marquis of GRANBY hoped that the right hon.
gentleman, like Sir Robert Peel, was only unsettling the
present duties in order to reimpose them again. He could
tell the right hon. gentleman that the people of this coun-
try would not endure to have the revenue raised by excise
duties whilst luxuries where admitted free of duty from
foreign countries. (Hear.)
After a few words from Sir W. VERNER,
Sir W. JOLLIFFE said that this measure would affect
injuriously the people of Ireland, and he thought it very
ungracious that this reduction should be proposed at the
present moment.
Sir A. BROOKE protested against the proposition on
the part of his constituents. He suggested, that the duty
should be 7s. 6d. instead ss.
Mr. TOLLEMACHE said that ho would take the divi
sion on the omission of butter. -
The committee divided :
For the amendment
Against it
On our re-admission to the gallery,
Sir A. BROOKE was protesting against proceeding
further with the resolutions that night, and said he shoul
move that the Chairman do report progress.
After a conversation the resolution relating to butter
was agreed to.
On the resolution for reducing the duty on.cheese from
ss. to 2s. 6d.
Mr. COLVILLE moved to omit the resolution.
The committee divided—
For the amendment 4O
Against it 135-95
Another motion for reporting progress having been
made,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated
that he should not object to postpone any resolution if
hon. members wished it ; but he wished the committee
to go through those resoulutions that were not opposed.
After a conversation,
The committee divided on the motion for reporting pro-
gress :--

The clause was agreed to, and added to the bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The next
clause had been suggested by the noble lord the member
for Northumberland, and referred to the description of
relief given two years ago under the 3rd section of 13 and
14 Vict., c. 12, which allowed tenant farmers who gained
their livelihood solely by husbandry to have the power of
a half-yearly appeal. It was proposed to extend that relief
by marring it applicable to tenant farmers who gained their
livelihood." principally" by husbandry ; but it was to be
confined strictly to tenant farmers and not to persons
farming their own land.
The clause was agreed to, and added to the bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The next
clause had been prepared in consequence of a suggestion of
the hon. member for Meath, add enabled clergymen and
ministers of every denomination to deduct from their as-
sessable income charges incurred in the exercise of their
professional duty. It did not exempt them as clergymen,
but only put them on a footing of equality with other pro-
fessions.
The clause was agreed to and added to the bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—There
was one other clause— one which had been suggested by
the hon. member for Newcastle—and it was intended to
enlarge the power of deduction with regard to bad and
doubtful debts. At present those debts only were allowed
for which were proved to be bad ; and although the pro-
visions of the bill mig:ll have included such debts as were
only partially bad, yet, by a rigid construction of the law,
they had been hitherto excluded.
After a few words from Mr. GROGAN, expressing a wish
that the clause had been extended to Schedule A,
The clause was agreed to and added to the bill.
Mr. M‘MAHON moved a clause in order to draw the
attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the pro-
priety of exempting a certain portion of a person's house-
hold furniture and wearing apparel from seizure.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
would be impossible to introduce the clause proposed into
the bill. The question to be considered was whether the
claim of the state was a primary or a secondary one. The
doctrine of the law was that the claims of the crown were
paramount ; and indeed, the existence of law and order,
which could 'only be maintained by means of the iublic
revenues, might almost be reckoned amongst a man d; im-
plements of trade. The proposal of the hon. gentletnan,
however, would place those claims in a position of in-
feriority as compared with those of the landlord.
The clause was then withdrawn.
Mr. I. BUTT brought up a new clause. By the present
law, if there were any defalcation it must be made good
by a reassessment of the district. That provision was
just, inasmuch as the collector was in the hands of the
local authorities ; but in Ireland the fact was the reverse,
and to apply the same enactment would be manifestly
unjust. The object of the clause, therefore, was to pre-
vent its application to the sister country.
The clause was agreed to and added to the bill.
Mr. I. BUTT then proposed a second new clause, the
object of which was to allow the Irish landlords to deduct
the amount they paid for poor rates from the income to be
assessed. There was this difference in the cases of the two
countries : in England the rates were paid entirely by the
tenant, but in Ireland the landlord was compelled by law
to pay at least ono-half of the rate. Thus, if a man had a
farm in England worth 1001. net, on which the rates were
101., the tenant would only give the landlord 1001. and pay
the rates himself. In Ireland he would give 1051., so that
in the latter case the landlord would have to pay income
tax on Si. more than in England upon a property of ex-
actly the same value. Besides, there was an enactment
by which an English landlord, if he agreed to pay any
portion of the tenant's rates, or, in other words, if ho
voluntarily placed himself in the position in which an
Irish landlord was placed by law, he was allow-d to make
the deduction.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER desired the
hon. gentleman to postpone the clause till the third read-
ing. In its present shape he could not accept it, because
from the valuation, which was the basis of the assessment,
the poor-rate had already been deducted. (Hear, hear.)
There might, however, be cases in which the valuation was
too high, and in which the tenant might appeal and prove

49
141-92

Ayes 11
Noes
125-114
The committee then went through several of the other
unopposed items in the tariff, and confirmed the proposed
duties.
On the article of some preparation of cotton,
Mr. HINDLEY objected to any protective duty on any
article of cotton.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there
was no protective duty as far as the manufacturers were
concerned • the duty was on a half made-up article, which
was used by' a certain class of artisans, and it was intended
for their benefit.
After some conversation the consideration of that article
was postponed.
Mr. MITCHELL thought that the officers of the cus-
toms ought to be relieved from the necessity of judging of
the value of watches. A duty upon all watches of ss. each
would be a bettor plan than the present.
In reply to a question from Mr. NEWDEGATE,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
no objection had been made to the proposed duties on
watches by the trade.
After some further conversation it was agreed that the
consideration of watches should be postponed.
The list of articles baying been gone through,
The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and received leave to
sit again.
BANKRUPTCY (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Upon the motion of the LORD ADVOCATE this bill was
read a second time.
WHITTLEBURY FOREST BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
HACKNEY CARRIAGES (METROPOLIS) BILL.
Mr. FITZROY said that as the City was averse to this
bill he would not press it upon them.
Sir J. SHELLEY said he had very little faith in the