The Sun.
London, England, 1854-05-26 00:00:00

sent moment than to revive those dissensions that seem some-
what mitigated and allayed. But all the objections that have
been taken to this projected alteration of the oath of supre-
macy sink into insignificance when compared with the objec-
tion which I have to the alteration of what is called the Ro-
man Catholic oath. (Hear.) And I object to that alteration
because it appears to me that no course could be pursued IT
a minister at this moment more calculated to aggravate
animosity, or more calculated to revive and strengthen those
politico religions dissensions which have been too prevalent in
this country, than the course which the noble lord has recom-
mended to-night. But, sir, there are other considerations of
a graver nature connected with the alteration of these Parlia-
mentary oaths, and especially the Roman Catholic oath. Now
I have a respect, and more than a respect for the Church of
Rome, as I have for all Christain Churches. Popes have
always treated the Jews exceedingly ill--(a laugh)—and I
believe the present state of their dominions is much to be at-
tributed to their ill-conduct in that respect. (Laughter.) But
sir, I make a great distinction between the Pope and the
Papacy. It is worse than idle to pretend at the present day
that the Papacy is a declining institution, or that it is in a
state of decrepitude and decay. There is no doubt that the
Papacy is one of the greatest inventions of human intellect—
(laughter)—and I am not at all prepared to say that at this
moment its influence is not as considerable as it has ever
been in the history of this world, if you take it in relation to
the increase of population, and to circumstances which could

not have existed in what are called the darker ages. We have,
therefore, to encounter no common power. (Cheers.) It is
a vulgar and false idea that would speak of the power of the
Papacy with contempt. It is but three or four years ago
that on one of the most solemn occasions of the meeting of
the British Parliament the Prime Minister of this country
came down and informed the most crowded house that I ever
recollect within these walls, that it was his opinion that there
existed, and had existed for some time, a vast conspiracy
on the part of the Papal influences against the Protestant
liberties of this country in particular. (Hear, hear, from Lord
J. Russell.) Now, the noble lord says " hear, hear," and he
nods assent, because, of course, be would not have made a

declaration of that kind without due and deep consideration.
It must have been no common information, and obtained by
no common means, and from no limited circle, that could
have induced or caused an English Minister, under such cir-
cumstances, to have made such a declaration. Do you believe,
sir, that the Roman Papacy is a power that commences great
conspiracies and gives them up ? (Loud cheers.) What right
have we to believe that that great power has renounced that
object which the noble lord, in his duty to his Sovereign
and to his country, informed her Parliament that her watch-
ful Minister had discovered and denounced Do you think
that the Papacy is a power as changeable in its opinions or its
policy as an English Minister. (Loud cheers from the Op-
position.) That was the most important declaration that has
been made for a great number of years—a most important
political declaration—and nothing that the noble lord has
done or said since, or can do or say, can remove the impres-
sion of that declaration, not only throughout this country,
but throughout Europe. (Hear.) But what is happening at the
present moment ? Are the events of the present day not
such as to justify the opinion of the noble lord which lie
communicated to Parliament three or four years ago ? Has
the Papacy again become decrepid--again become weak
and contemptible ? Has it renounced its ancient and ener-
getic ambition, appropriation, aggression, or whatever else
you may callit ? Has the Papacy, which has for so long a
period enjoyed such supremacy—has it, I say, at the pre-
sent moment, indicated by its conduct that it has at all re-
linquished its ancient policy, or renounced it for aught that
is new or novel ? Lcok at the position of Sardinia at this
moment ! We find there the ambition and the ability of the
feudal ages, and the Papacy exercising an authority, influ-
enced and directed by an intellectual ambition before which
everything seems to bow. I am telling you that you have
alarmed the Parliament and the country with these views of
the power of the Papacy, that in various parts of Europe you
will find its domination increasing in spite of your old system
of exclusion and restriction. But I tell you this—and I think
I have a right to say this, even if I were as warm a friend of
religious liberty as the noble lord—that this is not the time
nor the occasion when you should publicly intimate to the
world that you are relaxing the securities you already possess,
and weakening the bulwarks that have been built up before
v (Cheers.) The noble lord takes the Roman Catholic
oathot and analyses it, like an historical grammarian. He says
" Here is a reference to historical personages that are de-
funct ; and there is another passage mere business-like, be-
cause it is an insult to suppose that an English gentleman re-
quires au oath to control his conduct." Then he qu tee Lord
Halifax, who was a wit, and who said, " What is the use of
au oath ?" But Ido not think that wits are the best judges
of oaths; and, with great admiration for Lord Halifax, who
was a most charming and brilliant personage, I do not think
ho was a statesman adapted to the w tuts of the present age.
(Laughter and cheers.) We look upon this question iu a much
graver manner. Here is an English minister proposing to
Parliament that England should relax and renounce those se-
curities which Sir Robert Peel and the Duke of Wellington
revised at the time of the Roman Catholic emancipation.
What do the noble lord and his colleagues think will be
the effect of the news when it reaches the Vatican? They
will say, " This is another great surrender, another great
movement of this mysterious Oxford party. (Cheers and
laughter.) It is quite clear," they will say, because they will
not examine the question like grammarians or critics, " that
the British Parliament has relinquished its Protestant secu-
rities." (Hear.) But this attempt would be attended with
another influence. By adopting this course, you are not
only inflaming and falsely inflaming the passions and pros-
pects of Rome, but you are exciting the Protestant fears of
your own fellow-subjects. (Hear.) You are exciting as much
alarm in England as you are exciting anticipatory triumph at
Rome, and at a moment when you are making the Papacy
believe that they have increased advantages for renewed as-
saults you are exciting between the Roman Catholics and Pro-
testants of Great Britain feelings of disgust and dislike from
the course which you are pursuing to conciliate and blend
them in unison. (Hear, hear.) The house may not give
a member credit for these words, and may believe them to be
only phases of debate, but I declare that I never took a course
which gave me more pain than that which I take on this occa-
sion, and which I feel it my duty to take. I could have left
the house, or I might have said, " I am for the political eman-
cipation of the Jews, and indirectly this bill may have that
effect, and I am justified so far in supporting it ; while on
the other hand, I think, both for the sake of my Roman
Catholic as for my Protestant fellow subjects, nothing can be
more unwise than the course which the Government are
taking with respect to this subject ;" and as I could not con-
sistently, or with any conscience, support the bill, I might
have absented myself from the house. But I have felt it my
duty to be present, and, with the kind indulgence of the
house, very imperfectly, at this late hour, to express my
general views on this subject. If the noble lord will retrace
his steps, and go on with the subject which I thought he had
near to his heart, I shall adopt the course which I have uni-
formly taken. The noble lord has on previous occasions
taunted me with being silent in debate when the question
has been before the house ; but as my views were peculiar
views on the question, I had no wish to obtrude them upon
the house. I have never been false in those principles.
(Loud cheers.) Not merely in this house, but by other
modes, even at great sacrifices, I have endeavoured
to advance that which I believed to be a sacred cause.
I trust the house will not set down to egotism
these views and opinions, but as there have been unfair in-
sinuations of attempted influence on my conduct in respect
to this subject at various times by those political friends with
whom it is my happiness to act, I can truly say that at no
time, and under no circumstances, has a single word ever
escaped from any gentleman near me which would tend to
control or influence my conduct in that respect. (Hear, hear.)
They knew from the first, and all must have known it who
would have condescended to inquire into my opinions, how
profound and fervent were my convictions on this great ques-
tion. They knew that at all sacrifices I would uphold that
cause, and though I deeply regret the course which the noble
lord has taken—though I believe it to be one iu which he All
not only increase the difficulty with which the Jews have to
contend, but will create in this country between considerable
classes of her Majesty's subjects misunderstandings which at
a time like the present should have certainly been avoided—
still it is my conviction, as certain as I am now addressing
you, sir, that the time will come when the Jews will receive
in this country that full and complete emancipation which
the noble lord believes they will receive, because ho has con-
fidence in the principle of religious liberty. I, too, sir, re-
spect that principle, but, so far as the Jews are concerned, I
have faith in that Almighty Being who has never deserted
them. (Cheers.)
Mr. MUNTZ, amid loud loud cries for a division, said that
he should vote against the motion for the second reading of
the bill, although he had uniformly voted with the noble lord
in his attempts to remove the disabilities from the Jews, and
would be always ready to do so whenever it was attempted in
a straightforward manner. (Heir.) If the noble lord would
bring in a bill to admit the Jews, and frame such au oath fur
them as should be binding on their conscience, he should have
his most cordial support, but he could not subscribe to a
measure which, like the present, proposed to alter the oaths
agreed to at the settlement of 1829, and to break the com-
pact then entered into, which was considered satisfactory by
all parties. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN proceeded, amid renewed cries for a di-
vision, to state that he was the only member in the house
who was a member of the Duke of Wellington's Cabinet in
1829, and who was a party with the late duke in framing the
oath which now stood in the Roman Catholic Relief Bill.
When the measure was proposed by the noble duke, it was
more ample and freer from restrictions than any which the
friends of the Roman Catholics had previously proposed to
the house, and all the restrictions previously proposed by
Plunket and Grattan were studiously omitted from the bill,
the Duke of Wellington being willing—relying upon the good
faith and honour of the Roman Catholics—to Waive all objec-
tions felt to their entering the house, so long as they swore to
the form of oath then proposed. From that time to the pre-
sent, he had, in common with the late Sir Robert Peel, and
with all the members of the Wellington Cabinet, distinctly
refused to concur in any measure which should interfere with
that great compact which was then entered into. (Hear,
hear.) He warned the house, and above all his fellow coun-
trymen of the Roman Catholic persuasion, to beware how
they lent their efforts to the introduction of the first step to-
wards the violation of the compact then entered into. (Hear,
hear.) Such a course would, he thought, tend to inflame the
passions of the people, and possibly endanger the substantial
provisions of that bill of 1829 which had been found to be so
beneficial to the country at large, and produce such an
amount of religious discord throughout the country as it
would be vain to attempt to repress. (Hear, hear.) Upon
these grounds he could not reconcile it to himself to vote for
the bill as it now stood. (Cheers.)
The house then divided. It is usual for the result of a di-
vision to be reported by one of the tellers on the winning
side. When Sir F. Thesiger was observed to take the paper
from the hands of the clerk a loud cheer arose from the Oppo-
sition benches, and was continued for several minutes. The
hon. and learned gentleman announced the number as follow :
For the second reading
Against it
Majority —4
This defeat of the Government created an immense excite-
ment in the house. The delivery, by the clerk, of the division
pnalepnetr
oinfttobhreeshaltn,dlifsolo.f Sir F. Thesiger, one of the tellers,
Instead of to Mr. H ter, was the signal or a burst of cheer-
ing,taiu whichor dorder,
lasted
ti for several minutes. After the announce-
considerable time.
The Consolidated Fund
cheering recommenced,
Mr. Speaker could scarcely oh-
recommenced, and continued a
(8,000,000/.) Bill passed through
committee.

DRAINAGE OF LANDS BILL.
Mr. K. SEYMER mgoovientthat the Speaker leave the chair,
Mr. CHRISTOPHER. objectedo.o proceeding at so late at an
Mr. HENLEY moved, ti, an amendment,
) be adjourned.
i The house divided, and the numbers were--
For the adjournment of the debate...... 29
Against
Majotity for going into committee ... —4O
Mr. CHRISTOPHER persisted in his objection to going k
into committee, and moved that the house do adjourn.
Lord PALIIERSTON suggested that the house should go
into committee pro forma, so as to establish the bill as an
order, as it was obviously impossible to enter on discussion
at that hour.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER withdrew his amendment, and the
house went into committee, but immediately resumed.
The house then adjourned at a quarter to two o'clock.