The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-20 00:00:00

diminution in the amount.
. urth.:'r,deereised in futhre years.
Lord D. grulurr saidstiaere was no vote on which the
people out of doors looked with greater suspicion than
this. They did not know how it was employed, or what
nameless gentlemen gave their services in consideration
part of it. The dislike felt at it generally throughout the,
country was not likely to be lessened at present, in eoe
and
quence of the suspicions of revelations which hadspread_
through the country with regard to secret services, the
watching and inquiring about the proceedings of different
individuals. He was not going to object to the vote at
present, but he thought the house had a right to as mu9h
.
information as it was possible to give with regard to
He hoped the Government would tell the committee
whether the sum now asked for was the same as last year.
Mr. A. PELLATT begged also to ask whether any
_part
of the money wont to remunerate the detective police 7
Lord J. RUSSELL said the sum asked for this year was
exactly the same as that of last year ; and no part of the
money went to the detective police.
The vet) was then agreed to.
Votes of 216,4201., for providing stationery, printing,
binding, and paper for the two Houses of Parliament, and
the several departments of Government in England, Scot-
and, Ireland, and the colonies, and of . 16,000 1. for law
Ch:Ll'S'o6 paid by the Solicitor to the Treasury in England,
were agreed to without discussion.
On a sum of 17,7001. being proposed for sheriffs' ex-
penses,
officers of the Court of Exchequer, &c.Lrr. WIcE, Lord D. STUART, and Mr. M . CHAMBERS
severally expressed a wish to know how this sum, which
seemed a large one, was appropriated ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was principally a sum which
had been usually paid to sheriffs for charges which they in-
cnre-d in the execution of their office, which they paid out
of their own rockets in the first instance, and of which
trey subsequently rendered an account.
The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 8,8301. was then proposed to defray the charges
of the salaries of the Commissioners of the Courts for the
Relief of Insolvent Debtors.
After a short discussion the vote was agreed to.
The next vote was for a sum of 107,4051. to defray the
law expenses of Scotland.
On the proposal of a sum of 56,050/. to defray the charges
of criminal prosecutions in Ireland,
Colonel DUNNE said that he considered that if the sys-
tem of equalisation of taxation were adopted with respect
to Ireland, the same principle of equality ought to be ap-
plied to the expenses of the country, and particularly in
the case of criminal prosecutions and law charges, and he
would be glad to receive an assurance from the Govern-
ment that the same principle should be applied with regard
to the charges of prosecution in Ireland as prevailed in
England.
Mr. M`MAHON trusted that some alteration would be
made in the present system with regard to the appoint-
ment of Crown prosecutors. He believed that at present
the failure of justice was in too many instances to be
traced to the fact of effete nominees of the Attorney-Gene-
ral having to contend with young, active, and more expe-
rienced men than themselves.
Mr. BROTHERTON wished to know if the hon. and
gallant member for Portarlington would wish to see equa-
lity between the two countries carried out so as to include
the payment of the constabulary in Ireland from local rates
as in this country, rather than be borne as at present by
the Consolidated Fund?
Colonel DUNNE would have no objection to that change,
provided everything else were placed upon the same
footing.
Sir J. YOUNG thought that the whole subject of the
local taxation of Ireland was a question well worthy the
attention of gentlemen connected with Ireland, and pro-
liaised the best consideration of the Government to any
well-considered proposition on the subject. He was not
prepared to agree in the conclusion of the hon. member for
Wexford (Mr. M`Mahon), as to the propriety of adopting
in Ireland the same system as that which I rsvailed in Eng-
land with respect to public prosecutions, rather than the
one which at present existed there, and which had been
found to work so well in Scotland. He thought it desir-
able that there should be public officers in Ireland to con-
duct prosecutions ; but did not consider that the present
system was a perfect one,
Mr. SCULLY trusted that the attention of the Govern-
ment would be directed to some mode of making the office
of Crown prosecutor in Ireland more efficient than it was
at present.
The vote was the agreed to.
A sum of 36,0001. was next proposed for defraying the
expenses of the metropolitan police force in Dublin.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the vote on the ground
that the expenses of that force, in addition to that of the
c nstabulary, ought not to be borne by the Consolidated
Fund.
The vote was agreed to, as was also a vote for 240,0001.
to defray charges formerly borne upon the county rate.
On the proposal to vote a sum of 16,8391. for the charges
of inspection and general superintendence over all the pri-
sons of the United Kingdom,
Mr. LUCAS suggested the postponement of the vote, on
account of the importance of the subject—and which at
that hour of the night could not be fully discussed— as
affecting prisoners of the Roman Catholic persuasion.
Sir J. YOUNG said it was important that the votes
should be proceeded with, and if there was any informa-
tion which the hon. member might require on the subject,
he should be happy to afford it him.
Sir DE LACY EVANS approved of the consideration of
this question being delayed, on the ground that it was not
expected that the house would have got into committee of
supply so early.
Lord J. RUSSELL admitted that if the previous busi-
ness upon the paper had occupied the greater portion of
the evening, it would have been necessary to postpone the
committee of supply ; but, having got into the committee
of supply, he could not admit the necessity of not going on.
They were now going through the votes regularly, and he
hoped that if honourable members had objections to any
particular votes they would now state them. Notice had
been given that the house would go into supply this
evening.
Mr. WILLIAMS said he should object to any votes
being taken after twelve o'clock. [lt was now a quarter to
cloven.]
Lord J. RUSSELL said he did not propose to take any
votes after 12 o'clock. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LUCAS put it to the committee to say whether it
was not perfectly reasonable, under the circumstances, that
the chairman should now report progress, and ask leave to
sit again. (Cries of " Oh, oh," and "Go on.") There
must be a lengthened discussion on this vote ; but it was
impossible it could be satisfactory at so late an hour to-
night. If, therefore, no other course was left open to him,
he should take a division to-night, and the discussion on
the bringing up of the report. (A laugh.) He moved that
the chairman report progress.
Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to take the discus-
sion on the bringing up of the report ; but he could not
consent to stop the progress of the committee now, merely
because the honourable gentleman was not ready to make
his statement.

He hoped it would be still

The vote was then agreed to.
On the next vote, that the sum of 407,6671., be granted
to defray the charge of the Government prisons and convict
establishments at home,
Mr. LUCAS moved that the chairman do report pro-
gress.. (Cries of " oh, 9h.".)

Lord J. RUSSELL trusted the committee would not
agree to the proposal. (Hear, hear.) There was certainly
no reason for reporting progrei s so early as eleven o'clock.
Mr. LUCAS said the noble lord had put the case as if
he (Mr. Lucas) was not prepared to bring on the question.
He had not put it on that ground, but upon the ground
that it would lead to a longer debate than there was time
for this evening, and because several hon. gentlemen who
wished to take part in the discussion were now absent. In
the details appended to the vote he found several sums,
amounting to 4,52 W., for chaplains and other religious in-
structors in these prisons. In the vote for Irish prisons
sums were included for Protestant chaplains, for Roman
Catholic Chaplains, and for Presbyterian chaplains ; in
other words, in Ireland the fact was recognised that there
wore criminals of different religions, and some sort of pro-
vision was thus made for their religious instruction and re-
formation. But in the vote for Government prisons in
England not a single sixpence was asked for the payment
of Roman Catholic chaplains, nor was anything paid in
the local or county prisons for Roman Catholic chaplains,
though a large sum was proposed to be voted for the main-
tenance of prisoners in those gaols. Co inty gaols were
entirely under the management of the Secretary of State
for the Home Department • the rules were sent to him
every year, and any alterations, amendments, or additions
which he made were obligatory and binding upon the local
authorities. County prisons, as well as Government pri-
sons, were therefore, as regarded this question, under the
inangement of the Home Secretary. What provision, then,
was made for the religious instruction of Roman Catholic
prisoners? None either in England or Scotl Ind—with the
exception of Millbank. Now he wanted to have an oppor-
tunity of laying the whole of this case before the house in
detail, for it was impossible, without discussion, that so
gross an injustice and absurdity should continue to be per-
petrated. The motive for prison discipline was reforma-
tion—but with regard to Roman Catholic prisoners, refor-
mation was began with a profession of hypocrisy. The
case was a grave one—it would require an answer from
the Government, and it would certainly lead to a length-
ened discussion on the part of gentlemen who took the same
view as himself. He hid, therefore, no alternative but to
press his motion. To take the division now and the dis-
cussion afterwards was au absurdity, and he had only pro-
posed it by way of joke.

- Mr. V. SMITH said the proposition to report progress
was unreasonable and unusual. At the same time, if the
honourable gentleman was determined to state the case on
this motion, as well as ou the bringing up of the report,
the loss of time would be very great. Under such cir-
cumstances, therefore, it would be better for his noble
friend to postpone the present vote, and proceed with
Via others. (Hear hear, hear.) There must be some
discussion upon subjects arising out of this vote, which
would require some explanation from his noble friend
the . Home Secretary. There was an increase of
12J,000/. in the vote for special service to provide ac-
commodation for convicts, in consequence of the cessa-
tion of transportation. There had been no discussion in
this house on that subject; and, from what had passed in
another place, it was left in doubt in what position the
question of transportation stood. There must, therefore,
be a discussion in which the Government would state what
their views wore with regard to secondary punishments.
Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to the course sug-
gested by his right hon. friend. (Hear, hear.) With re-
gard to the important subjcct alluded to by his right hon.
friend, it was undoubtedly desirable that on some rather
early occasion the views of the Government should be stated
in this house on the question of transportation. (Hear.)
It would be necessary before long to bring in a bill on that
subject ; and in moving for such a bill the views of the Go-
vernment would be stated by his noble friend the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department.
Tho vote was then withdrawn.
The following votes were next agreed to without discus-
sion :-
0,4651. for the expense of the maintenance of prison-
ers 'in county gaols, the philanthropic institution and
lunatic asylums, and the expenses of the removal of con-
victs. _

of 69,518/.
sfor expenses connee.ed with the transportation
convict.
244,154/. for the expense of the convict establishments in
the colonies. _

230,000/. for public education in Great E
182,073/., the sum required by the CommirisstiOnners. of Na-
tional Education in Ireland.
44,476/. for the department a science and art, including
geological survey of Great Britain and Ireland, and
museums of geology, London and Dublin.
G,3401. for the expenses of the Royal Dublin Society.
On the motion that 2,006/. be voted to defray the charge
of the salaries and allowances granted to certain professors
in the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge,
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the vote. He understood
that tbo income of ono college was 150,C00/. per annum,
and that of another 180,0001. per annum ; and he kid no
hesitation in saying that establishments possessing such
vast amounts of wealth ought to be ashamed of coming
upon the public taxes for these votes. A return obtained
a few years ago showed that only two, three, or four per-,