The Sun.
London, England, 1854-05-13 00:00:00

TIIE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 13, 1354.

SHARE MARKETS.
(THIS DAY.)

IMPEIdAL PARLIAMENT,

HOUSE OF LORDS--(YESTERDAY.)
CHURCH BUILDINGS ACT AMENDMENT

---~---

BRITISH RAILWAYS.

BI LL

The hotwe then went into committee upon this I);

RAIL WATS.

Closing Prices
yesterday.

Basiiiess don,-
this day.

On the firs, t clamsebeing r;:ad,
Earl NELSON complained of the power given by th
bill to sell churchyards after they were closed and t:
pull down churches. He should not object to this power
being applied to London, but he did object to its general
character, because the reasons which might exist for its
exercise in the metropolis would not apply in the country.
If cases could be shown in the provinces where it might
be desirable to apply it, a schedule might be made of
such places. In Chichester, Lincoln, and Norwich it
was said there were too many churches ; but he found
on inquiry, and from private information which he had
received, that they were all well attended. The noble
earl was understood to conclude by moving an amend-
ment in accordance with his views.
The Bishop of LONDON said that, with reference to
the cessation of the powers confided to the Church
Building Commissioners, it was quite true that the
powers conferred upon those commissioners would come
to an end in two years ; but he ventured to think, con-
sidering that the duties performed by that body were so
valuable and of such a nature, that when that period
arrived it would be absolutely necessary to confer the
power which they now exercised upon some one.
The Bishop of LINCOLN quite concurred in the
view that this measure was required in the country as
well as in London.

After a few words from the Earl HARROWBY, the
house divided.
Contents 27
Non-contents- 2B
Majority against the amendment —1
The remaining clauses then went through committee,
and the bill was ordered to be rennrted.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-(YESTERDAY.)
TAKING OF CRONSTADT.

Lord D. STUART asked the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty whether any information had been received relating
to the capture of a number of Russian transports near the
ireland of Serpenti, and whether those transports had
troops or ammunition on board, and from what ports they
had come, and where they were bound to. The noble lord
wished also to ask whether the Admiralty had received any
account from the Baltic relative to the taking of Cronstadt
which had resulted in great loss to our fleet.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, Sir, with the permission of the
house, I will answer the last question first being the most
important, I have received no account whatever by tele-
graph from the Baltic, and, therefore, I can have no
doubt that there must be some error in the report to which
my noble friend has referred. I have received a letter
this morning from Sir C. Napier, dated May 3, when he
was still on the coast of Sweden, but I am reminded
by a noble friend that there is a post as late as the
sth inst., but Sir Charles Napier states in his letter of the
3d that the fogs were so thick that he did not think it
would be safe for some time to move the fleet. The right
hon. hart. then proceeded to give a lengthened explanation
with regard to the first question. It was true the Tiger had
made such a capture of ships, but the ships were not filled
with troops. They were only laden with ammunitions of
war.

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The LORD ADVOCATE having moved the second
reading of this bill,
Mr. NEWDEGATE presented a number of petitions
against it from various places in Scotland.
Mr. STIRLING rose, pursuant to notice, to move that
the bill be read a second time that day six months. He
regretted to have to oppose a bill for so laudable an object
as that of promoting the education of the people, but he
thought more consideration should be given to the subject
than it was possible to devote to it in the present session.
Although the system of national education inScotland was
to some extent defective, it should be remembered that it
was still superior to that which existed either in England
or Ireland, and the proof of this was to be found in the nu-
merous instances in which boys educated in the parish schools
of Scotland attained to distinguished positions in after life.
The hon. gentleman proceeded to state the number of
parish schools in connexion with the church of Scotland,
of which the established church had 905, and even the
episcopal church had increased of late years the number
from 12 to 93, and argued that great good had been done
in that respect. He, however, did not think that the mere
multiplying of schools would prevent vice and irreligion
any more than you prevent hunger by multiplying bakers'
shops. He thought Scotland might be proud of her parish
schools, and if they required reform it should be carried on
with a careful and kindly hand, but let them not be swept
away as was proposed by the present bill. They might
have faults ; their schoolmasters might be ill-paid, and
their salaries already too small, would be further reduced
by the operation of a law which was about to take effect,
and against that law they ought to be protected.
It was impossible to deal with this question without
touching on religious grounds ; but he was not about to
enter on the question of secular and religious education.
He believed, however, that the great majority of the
people of Scotland were in favour of religious education,
and it was not the intention of the Lord Advocate's bill
to weaken the religious element in the schools, though it
provided for it in a very clumsy way. It was only rea-
sonable that the church should be allowed to give a gua-
rantee for the quality of the teaching in the schools ; and
the connexion between the church and the schools had
existed so long with advantage that it ought to continue.
He bud been in corn munication with many clergymen on
this subject, and th sir views were very reasonable ; for
they had no objection to be associated with a Government
inspector in the schools. With regard to grants 'of money,
although he would not ask the house to give money for
parochial schools connected with the church, yet he was
not prepared to vote Looney for schools which were not so
connected. There wei-e about 9,00. schools, and the Lord
Advocate asked that they might each be endowed with a
sum of 161. a year, and ?deo that half of the retiring pension
toschool masters should lee paid out of the grant, which he
calculated would requires 25,0001. a year, and the sum
asked was 18,503., and h e thought that the Lord Advo-
cate might have asked for it without the offensive condi-
tions contained in the bill, with reference both to the
Church and the Dissenting bodies in Scotland. There was
one part of the plan of the bill he should like to see tried,
which was to set up side schools which should be open to
all denominations where tlney were required, and if that
experiment succeeded, let the Government come down to
the house, and propose to extend the system. The hon.
gentleman then entered i tato a defence of the Presbytery
with reference to the conduct of the schools, and expressed
his regret that the Lord .h.dvocate, in his speech, had said
that the condition of the s chools under the superintendence
of the Presbytery was degraded beyond imagination. If
those words implied a grave charge against living men it
ought to have been substantiated, but if it was intended in
a historical sense it would have been better to have made
that sense appear. Ho urgent that legislation was com-
menced in the absence of sufficient information ; and he
thought that there ought to be inquiry by a royal commis-
sion before legislation, but the Lord Advocate had put the
cart of legislation before the horse of inquiry. It was said
that the opponents of the bill admitted the defects of the
educational system, and yet wished to reject the bill ; but
he could answer to that, that the question had been con-
sidered by the opponents of the bill, and a draft of a mea-
sure prepared. which in the event of his motion for reject.
ing the present bill being carried, would be introduced into
the house. The hon. gentleman concluded by expressing
his regret that he had been compelled by a sense of duty to
oppose this bill, which might be construed into an opposi-
tion to the first step towards the establishment of a system
of national education.
The Earl of DALKEITH seconded the amendment, and
said he regretted that in addressing the house for the first
time he should be speaking in opposition to a bill intro-
duced by the Government. His main objection to the bill
was that it laid down the principle of the disruption of
parochial schools from their connection with the church.
The result of the present system had been so satisfactory
as regarded the education of the people of Scotland, that it
ought not to be hastily thrown over by abill founded entirely
on theory. He did not say that the parochial schools were
not capable of improvement—for he admitted that they
were—and he should be glad to see them improved. In
the preamble of the bill the Lord Advocate affirmeools had
d that
the superintendence of the church over the sch
been defective, and therefore that the church should no
longer have the same control over them as before. Al-
though the system of superintendence had been defectively
carried out, it was not defective in itself, and a declar
oa-
tion to that effect had been signed by 2,000 proprietors f
land in Scotland, while in 19 out of 22 counties where
meetings had been held with reference to this bill the opi-
the
nion expressed had been against it. He thous
that
legislature was not justified in opening charges against the
Church of Scotland on the mere words of the Lord Advo-
cate and the Government without sufficient substantiation
of them by proof. There was no mention in the bill what
religion was to be taught, or whether any religion was to
be taught in the schools. lie was ready to concur in any
improvements in the parochial schools consistently with the
he wished the
preservation of the present systems but
house to consider whether a system which had made the
people of Scotland the bet educated in the world should
be put aside, and a mere theoretical plan set up in its

place.
Lord ELCHO said his hon. friend who had moved this
amendment expressed his regret at finding that he was
obliged to move an amendment in opposition to the bill
brought in by the Government. He regretted to find that a
gentleman from whom they had expected better things,
should have permanently enrolled himself among the ranks
of their opponents. He considered that his hon. friend's
position was untenable, because he on the one hand
said there was a deficiency in the means of education,
and on the other hand he asked the house to maintain a
system which had caused the necessity of such a measure
as this. He was far from denying what had fallen from
his hon. friend and from the seconder of t
un he amendment,
in favour of the present system. It was der that sys-
tem in a great measure that Scotchmen had become what
they are. But when his honottrable friend the mem-
ber for Perthshire stated that the parochial schools
were of an unsectarian character, he begged to differ
with him in that respect ; for though the teaching was
nnsectarian, the door stood open whether they were
Presbyterian or Roman Catholic. Yet he thought no one
acquainted with those schools would deny that their con-
stitution was sectarian. What was required was an es-
sential alteration in the parochial schools, of Scotland,
which would bring them in harmony with the altered cir-
cumstances of the times in which we lived, and would
bring them back to what they were intended to be, namely,
the public schools for Presbyterian Scotland; and it was
vith this object and intention that his hon. and learned
fi lend had brought in this bill, In advocating thfis change t
in their public schools he wished toguard ag
bei. ig supposed to have any hostility to the Established
Church of Scotland. He entertained the greatest respect
for th. tt valuable institution, he fully appreciated the be-
nefits it had conferred upon the country, and he did not
wish L n any way to impair its effic. He would now
call dm 3 attention of the house to the difficulties with which
this question was surrounded, because, although there was
a genet. ll opinion that something should be done the great.
est difl:ei once prevailed as to what that something should
be. It api neared to him there were but three ways of estab-
lishing as, vsuem of public education in Scotland. In the
first place% by extending the system which
sat present
existed ; la: the second place, by establishing yst of
mei e seimlar education ; and in the third place, by estab-
' lishiug a system founded on a religious basis. In the first

nlnes, with reference to continuing the existing system, a
lenoiniustional system. ortintained by the Privy Council
;rant, it appeareti to him that there were three main ob-
•,ctions to it. In the first place it was a systein which hail
,risen from sectarianism, which was an evil. Another 4,b-
-setion was that the Privy Council grants fell short most
here they were require 1 moat. Another re Lson was tint
system hail b. en already triel and found wanting.
ith reference to the secular system or the separation of
.scular from religious instruction, it aopeare.l to him that
sat system was most deserving of being called national
.vhich was likely to bring within its pale the largest num
oar of people. With the present state of feeling on this
questiou he believed that if they were to establish schools
in Scotland on the secular system, they would be schools
without scholars. If the people were divided on all other
points they were agreed on this, that in their public schools
secular education should not be dissociated from religious.
He next came to the system of his hon. and learned friend
—schools on a religious basis—taking as the basis that
which was the religion of nine-tenths of the people of Scot-
land. His honourable friend had done justice to the
speech of the Lord Advocate. That speech had met with
great approval. He wished ho could say as much for the
bill, which had encountered great opposition in Scotland.
It might be supposed that it established a system of
education without religion. Nothing could be further
from the truth. Although the superintendence of the
presbytery was removed, and tests were abolished, yet it
must be remembered that the minister of the parish would
still remain a member of the parochial school board.
fhe preamble of the bill especially referred to, and ac-
knowledged the necessity of religious instruction being im-
parted in the schools, and the 27th clause provided that
the school committee should set apart certain hours for
religious instruction, at which children should not be
bound to attend if their parents or guardians objected.
There were special enactments on the subject of religion,
and he did not see how any one could say that religion was
not cared for. He apprehended, however, that the chief
objection to the bill was, that it removed the superintend-
ence from the presbytery, and abolished tests. It was
impossible to say that the presbyteries could efficiently
perform their duty. The presbytery had the power of ex-
amining the master, of visiting the school, but they had
nothing to say to the appointment of the master, which
rested with the heritors. They could not prescribe the
books to be used, or the nature of the instruction to be
given ; and with reference to the power of removal, it was
practically inoperative. It was on this account that his
right hon. friend proposed to establish a system of inspec-
tion by a general board. If they looked to history they
would find that the connection between the church and
the schools was not for the benefit of the church, but that
the youths of Scotland might be well brought up. The
other objection on the part of the church was the aboli-
tion of the tests. To take a proper view of these
tosts they must look to the history of the times in
which they were imposed, and they would find that
they wore established for the purpose of securing and
maintaining the Presbyterian faith. Did any man now
pretend to say that they would injure the Presbyterian
faith by abolishing the tests? Unquestionably this was
the object of the act of 1690, which was subsequently
embodied in the Act of Union. By providing that
the schoolmasters should not be confined exclusively to
the established church, he maintained that they did not
infringe in the slightest legree on the spirit of those
acts. By the returns published with the census of the
number of persons attending religious worship in Scotland
on Sunday morning, the 30th of March, 1851, he found
that the number of attendants belonging to the established
church were 228,000; belonging to the free church 235,000;
and belonging to the united presbyterians, 143,000. They
therefore found that, taking the whole of Scotland, there
was a vast majority of those who held the presbyterian
faith who did not belong to the established church. But
this inequality was still more striking in the counties. In
the county of Edinburgh the numbers attending the este-
silished church were 15,000, and the free church 18,000. In
Aberdeen the numbers attending the established church
were 20,000, the free church 23,000 ; in Argyll, the estab-
lished church, 4,238, free church 6,305 ; in Lanark, the
established church 24,000, and the free church 26,000; in
Caithness, the established church 442, and the free church
9,779, and in Ross and Crornarty established church 1,411,
and free church 20,237. He asked then was it right to
maintain a test which excluded all but those who belonged
to the established church from teaching in the public
schools. The abolition of the test, ho conceived, was called
for not only in the interest of the free church, but also in
that of the established church, as it would remove a source
of heart-burning and hostility, which would exist as
long as the test remained. Having alluded to the objec-
tions of the established church, he would now allude to
the objections taken by those who held the voluntary
principle. What they said was, that they could not sup-
port any system of education by which religion in pub-
lic schools was to be taught by the state, and in order
to carry out their views they were prepared to support,
if necessary, a system of secular education, or rather
of secular education disassociated from religious in-
struction. (Hear.) He believed that by advocating
such a system they were outraging the feelings of at least
three-fourths of the people of Scotland. But they must
admit that this bill, though it fell short of their principle,
was a great improvement on the existing system. Objec-
tions had been likewise taken by the episcopalians and
Roman Catholics. As an episcopalian he did not see any
objection to this bill, and he assured the Roman Catholics
that he would be no party to a bill which made no provi-
sion for the education of Roman catholics, because he was
not one of those who thought it the duty of a Protestant
state to allow the children of Roman Catholics to grow up
in ignorance. He assured the Roman Catholics that their
interests were not forgotten ; his right hon. friend would
assist them in committee ; and at any rate they would not
find themselves in a worse position. Although he had
spoken hitherto only of the objections to the bill, it must
not be assumed that there were no parties in Scotland who
were not in favour of it. They had the free church, who,
though they were not satisfied with its provisions, yet con-
sidered the will would form a good basis. They were anxious
for the second reading. They had also a large body of the
established church, quiet thinking men, who saw the evils
with which they had to grapple, and who were not blinded
by prejudice and party feeling, and who wished that this
bill should pass into a law rather than that they should
have no measure. Then there had been 44,000 signatures
to the petitions in favour of the bill, 28,000 against it, and
10,000 for alterations. He thought they might add
these 10,000 to the 41,000 who were in favour of the prin-
ciple of the bill. (Laughter.) Then turning to the state
of education among the prisoners, he found that out of
21,000 prisoners 4,338 could not read at all, 10,482 could
only read with difficulty, 10,282 could not write at all,
531 could only sign their names, and 8,336 could write
with difficulty ; and the chaplain of ono of the gaols said,
speaking of the prisoners : As regards their moral and
religious condition, the generality of the prisoners are, on
admission, deplorably ignorant. Many of them, indeed,
are insensate, and, humanly speaking, impervious to con-
viction. Nothwithstanding, however, this their natural
depravity of heart, their innate propensity to every evil,
their intaught aversion to any good—the result of a God-
less, Christless upbringing, it is gratifying, nevertheless,
to observe the anxiety with which they, sooner or later, in
the course of their confinement here, avail themselves of
the many advantages they possess of acquiring religious
knowledge." The language of his right hon. friend who
brought in the bill had been said to be exaggerated, but
it found an echo in the General Assembly in Scotland, be-
cause Dr. Robertson, speaking in reference to the state of
education in Scotland, said, "We cannot disguise from
ourselves the truth that, be the cause of the evil what it
may, thousands, and even tens of thousands, are growing
up in the midst of us, from youth to manhood, whose
education is grievously neglected. For these masses of
society nothing is done, either intellectually or morally,
to fit them for the important place which they ought to
occupy, and which, were they qualified for its duties and
privileges, is waiting to receive them. In the degraded
condition to which their parents have been reduced it is
scarcely too much to say that the training which they re-
ceive is but fitted to make them pests and plagues of so-
ciety." He said, then, it was their duty, as far as was in
their power, to endeavour to meet this great and growing
evil, and he hoped that the members of that house, unin-
fluenced by sectarian or party feeling, would 'stable them
to resist the amendment. He believed it would be an
evil day for Scotland if they rejected this bill.
Mr. C. BRUCE said the Free Church had done a great
deal to forward education, and their scholars were perhaps
more numerous than they could conveniently maintain, and
they were therefore in favour of this bill. Those opposed
to the bill were the whole of the Establishment, the landed
proprietors, and those who held the voluntary principle,
and who had passed a resolution that this measure was un-
sound in principle, hostile to liberty, and opposed to the
Word of God. The bill had swept away a system of which
they had had a long and happy experience. The hon. gen-
tleman quoted a statement made by a Scotch clergyman
with the view of showing that one in seven of the popula-
tion of Scotland were under education. This statement
represented that the scholars in the schools attached to the
Free Church numbered only 59,896, while those in the
schools connected with the Established Church reached to
259,688; clearly proving (the lion. member contended) that
the parochial system was highly popular with the people
of Scetlands This bill, then, would act iu a manner most
prejudicial to the interest of the schoolmasters engaged in
carrying out that system ; it would most unjustly reduce
their stipends for, the next 30 years, whereas it should have
been the wish, as it was the duty, of the Government, to
introduce a measure to fix their remuneration at the pre-
sent maximum rate. It would have been easy enough in
such a measure as that to have introduced those alterations
in the parochial system which experience hail taught them I
were necessary to render it perfect, while provision might
have been made in it for granting pensions to deserving and
meritorious schoolmasters whose health had failed them,
or who were no longer competent to perform the duties of
tuition. A short bill of that sort, he insisted, it was the
duty of the Government to have introduced, and then the
Legislature would have been iu a position to take up
the whole question, with the view of taking steps to
extend the parochial system of education in Scot-
land, which, he admitted, was capable of great ex-
pansion. For instance, the parochial schools might
be very properly extended to large towns, where, ho be-
lieved, the infidelity of which they had heard so much in
connection with this bill, was much more the child of false
reasoning than barbarism. According to their own pro-
fessions,Governmeet desired to establish a union between
religious and secular education • but they forgot that the
parochial system had already solved that problem, or they
would have been slow to introduce this bill, which would
greatly interfere with it, if it did not go far to destroy it
altogether. The longer these schools existed the more
they seemed to improve and benefit Scotland, never at any
former period had they been so efficient as they were at
present ; while the average attendance of children was
greater than that of any other class of schools in Scotland,
which by no means made out the allegation of the Govern-
rrient that the majority of the people were hostile to them.
He was quite willing, however, that they should have
b aunt
opportunity of testing the value of their new system, t
at the same time the house should require an assur»nrcueteso.
be given that some fixed test of ChristianiTtyheor
tantism would be applied to the teachers.
at So thehp et let
preamble
pufrosfceussteladutdo, hinavtehasot
regardsome
espect
the phraseology of the whole bill
butf o r
ithe
cfeelings
mists to the ear to break it to the sense* H© for one did
"kept” the word of pro-
not choose to rely upon a preamble which was couched
in such general and indefinite terms, professing to have
a regard for the feelings of the majo.rityable to the of the
people, that it would be just as much applic
Christianity of Spain or Italy
.as that of Scotland ;
to be given in these
and what safeguard was there in the absence of any
test that the spirit of the education
now schools would be drawn from the fomer, and not the
latter source? Depend upon it the legacy which Wash-
ington left to his countrymen in the United States was
well worthy the study of modern statesmen ; in his fare-
wellofepnl
America,ecnece Washington told
of a state, as well
t hd
e m athaesarttsh
teolitbhe liberty
ypeaonpe
independence
as its material and political prosperity could only be sus-
tained
by the establishment of a system of education that
was founded upon the religious element. Now this bill

~~!/{~

had a directly contrary tendency, it altogether disreg nrded
religion by dispensing with any test of Christianity to he
applied to the teacher, and this heavy blow and great dis-
courage:Bent, were to be dealt cut to the Estah' ished
Church, for the sake of gratifying the dem.suds of free
church. }{td it not I oui for the c:amour of the free
church, we F,hould never have heard of this bill, and lie
should like to know what the free kirk ha 1 done to deserve
-this immense consideration at the hands of ministers. 1-1,.
repeated, iu conclusion, that they had n-) right to disturb
the existing system ; it hal worked exceedingly well f
the people, and to replace it by schools which would afford
the parent no positive security or test of the Christianity
of the teachers, would be so highly distasteful to the people
of Scotland, that they would never obtain their confidence.
Divested of all assurances or test of the Christianity or pro„
testantism of the teachers, he believed these schools would
prove a curse instead of a blessing to Scotland, and he
should therefore give his most cordial support to the
amendment.

Mr. J. MACGREGOR denied that this bill was a con-
cession to the Free Church of Scotland, whose ministers
in
relinquishing their former livings in the church of
Scotland had set an example of forbearance which had
never been witnessed by the world before. They had
shown throughout their career an utter abnegalion of every-
thing that was selfish, and it was unjust to men of such
great moral worth to say that this bill was an offering to
their demands. He hoped the house would agree to the)
principle of the bill, although there might be some de-
tails which it would be necessary to amend in committee.
Mr. G. DUNDAS regretted that the learned lord should
have struck such a blow as he had clone at a system which
the experience of centuries had shown to have worked
well. He was ready to admit that there was a greatf need
of education in Scotland, and he would even
to say that the poor neglected children of countryigheesear
as
ought to be taken possession of and educated by force,
and, if possible, made useful members of society. What
he found fault with in the bill was that it changed the
whole character of education in Scotland. It abolished
the existing tests, and by opening the parish schools to
masters of all denominations, would prove a fruitful
sourse of hostility between the schoolmaster and the cler-
gyman. He also objected to the bill because it professed
to constitute the supervision of inspectors for that of the
clergy. The parish schools were fosinded about 200 years
ago in connexion with the church, and since that time
the clergy had considered their care a sacred duty. Surely,
then, the Government might have devised some plan of
removing unworthy and incompetent masters without de-
stroying the existing system. (Hear, hear.) He objected,
further, to the centralisation of management which the
bill would introduce. Almost everything would be re-
ferred to the central board, and there had always been
a strong feeling in this country against that principle.
He was sorry to find a clause in the bill allowing
children to absent themselves during the hours of
religious instruction. He thought that that provision
would lead to many children withdrawing themselves
whose parents and guardians would never otherwise have
thought of desiring them to do so. In fine, he regretted
that the bill should be of such a sweeping character, for he
thought that a much more simple measure would have
answered the purpose. No doubt that the salaries of tke
teachers required augmentation, but he was sure that the
heritors of the different counties would have been glad to
have contributed the necessary funds if an appeal had been
made to them. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. G. DUFFY said that though the bill did not flatter
my sectarian prejudices, it went honestly to amend the
laws relating to education where they were defective. As
a member of the Scottish establishment, he regretted that
so much hostility should have been displayed against all
the provisions of the bill relating to parish sell )ols by a
majority of the Established clergy ; and he firmly believed
that the course they had taken would prove to be exceed-
ingly prejudicial to the Church of that country. (Hear,
hear.) He considered that the general board would form
a body that would be really responsible for the character
and qualifications of the schoolmasters, and that candi-
dates for that office of superior attainments would no
longer be excluded as they were under the present
system. He thought, too, that the superintendence
of the presbytery would be well replaced by those of the
hoard. (Hear, hear.) He believed that the plan of tt
Government was an ingenious, a comprehensive, and a
liberal measure, and as such it had his unqualified approval.
(Cheers.) He hoped, in conclusion, that no fears lest there
was a kind of pilot balloon, sent up to ascertain how the
wind would be for some other measure, would prevent the
English members from supporting a measure which had
been earnestly sought for, and which was earnestly desired
by the people of Scotland. (Cheers.)
Mr. MIALL objected to any scheme of what was called
national education ; but conceding that he was mistaken in
his views upon the subject, what was the present bill in-
tended to accomplish ? Its object was to grapple with what
was considered to be the alarming growth of ignorance in
Scotland. Well, if Scotland was really going back to her
ancient barbarism, it was certainly strange that the learned
lord should have omitted to furnish the house with any
evidence of a fact at once so melancholy and so significant.
(Cheers.) If any such evidence existed it must have been
quite within the learned lord's reach, and he should have
stated it for the information of the house. It was quite
trite that the Scottish census tables had not been published
when the learned lord introduced the measure, but still he
was probably in a position to have ascertained the leade ig
fact which those tables disclosed—namely, that one in
seven of the whole population was under scholastic train-
ing, and that four-fifths of that training was administered
by agencies other than those produced by public provision.
(.dear.) No doubt there was a vast mass of ignorance and
immorality ; but was not that symptomatic ? Would it
cease if the means of instruction were afforded ? Or was it
not clue to deeper causes? The proletaire class was pecu-
liar to all large cities and crowded towns. It was to be
met with not only in England end Scotland, but in Prus-
sia and France, and even in the United States. (Hear.) I
Even in America, where employment was general and its
rewards large and sure, it would be found in the large
towns that this class was both numerous and troublesome.
(Dear, hear.) Nor was it hard to account for this ; for
the unfortunate, the idle, the profligate, and those who
wished to bury crime in obscurity, naturally flocked into
the great cities. Now take the case of a single family of
this class. If they visited it they would have to go into
the most crowded district, where every room was tenanted
Iby a household. There was no privacy, no distinction
between the sexes, nothing to comfort or cheer. Vice,
squalor, wretchedness, and misery were everywhere to be
seen ; curses, blasphemy, and obscenity were to he heard
on every side. Let them take that family and ask them-
selves how it was possible by the aitivie construction of an
educational macSinery, to bring it under the influences
which they wished ? Did they think that to teach it
reading, writing, arithmetic, and geography, could do
much to elevate it, or to civilise ? (Cheers.) This was an
argument which appeared to him unanswerable, but it
was also fully borne out by the educational report of Mr.
Horace Mann. Let them construct what machinery they
would of a general character, it was impossible by that
means to reach the lowest class, out of whom sprung the
great mass of crime. The bill before the house was of a
too general character ; it was not specific enough to grapple
with the evils which it professed to remedy; it left out
the very class who most needed instruction. There was
another class, the labouring poor, who in England, what-
ever they do in Scotland, showed great indisposition to
avail themselves of the educational advantages provided
for them. Mr. H. Mann stated that the school fee was the
very least obstruction in the way of their receiving educa-
tion. While the school fee was but ld. or 2d. a week, the
parents would lose ls. or ls. 61 by depriving themselves of
the child's labour ; and there was a strong disposition
among the poor to get their children into earnino.b at
as early an age as possible. On this ground Mr. Mann
came to the conclusion that no mere extension of
schools would suffice to bring education within the reach
of the children of the poor. And yet this class were will-
ing to spend fifty millions a year on the gratification of
their taste for strong drink. (Hear, hear.) The schools
proposed by the bill might be scattered all over Scotland,
but they would not secure a better education for the chil-
dren ' • it would merely transfer the expense of the schools
from the parishes to the state. The parochial system had
prevailed for a number of years, and the house ought not
lightly to take it entirely away. Had the bill proposed
merely to extend and liberalise the parochial system, he
would have supported it. But ho saw in it the embryo of
a vast scheme in future. These commissions were increas-
ing on all hands ; we had commissions to regulate every-
thing, and very soon not only our comforts but our liber-
ties would be buried under a mass of commissions. (Hear.)
He could not conceive how any national system of religi-
ous teaching could be established which would not be
either latitudinarian or unjust. (Hear.)
Mr. BOUVERIE said the reasons given by the hon.
gentleman for voting against the bill were very strong ones
in its support. He altogether lost sight of the fact that if
the provisions of this bill did not reach a certain class,
there were others which they did reach. (Hear.) The
hon. gentleman, though evidently not knowing much of
Scotland, must know that a system of national education
had existed there for 200 years, and that in consequence of
that system there wore fewer of the miserable class he d
described than there would otherwise have been. (Hearha ,
hear.) He would not discuss the question on the narrow
ground of religious tests ; bat believing that it would pro-
mote education amongst all, he should support the second
reading of the bill, though objecting to some of its pro-
visions. He believed there could be nothing like educa-
tion unless combined with moral training founded on reli-
gious principles. But the best security for this was
found in the religious character of the people of Scotland.
(Hear, hear.) There was nothing in the old statutes re-
tuiring religious instruction to be given ; the legistlhae-
ura knew full well that they could rely
religious feelings of the people ; and ho regretted thaoton atlhsoe
noble and learned lord had not done the same
objected to the provision for perpetuatingltea
ds e
tpoark. aeteeps col oor les.
for different sects ; ho feared
v‘tlesnd ad been asked what was
ligious animosities. (Hear.)
the necessity of such of a bill as this for Scotland. Twelve
years ago, the Commissioners of Poor-law Inquiry in Scot-
land reported that all means of suppressing pauperism
would prove insufficient unless accompanied by some means
for promoting education ; for, instead of an improvement
in this respect, there was rather a deterioration. The re-
turns of the prison inspectors showed that, while the popu-
lation had increased 10 per cent. from 1841 to 1851, the
average daily number of female prisoners in confinement in
Scotlande had increased 35 per cent., and that of males 54
per cent.—a proof of the deterioration spoken of by the
commissioners, and of the necessity for improving educa-
tion
in that country. Tho house must bear in mind that
there must be some legislation this year, or the schoolmas-
ters would be in a worse position than ever. By the act of
isee, their salaries were fixed according to the price of
grain, and a reversion was provided for every 25 years.
This was the year in which it should take place ; and it
was the more necessary, by reason of the great advance in
the price of provisions. (Hear, hear.) The noble and
learned lord was therefore compelled to bring in a bill on
the subject ; and had he merely proposed to increase the
schoolmasters' salaries, without endeavouring to introduce
any improvement in the system of education, it would
have had a very little chance of being ca• lied. The secret
of all this dissension was that the national system, up to a
few years ago, was national in fact, as well as in name ; it
was the system of the national church, but that church
was the national church no longer. (Hear.) Hence they
could not extend the system on the basis of the so-called
national church. The provisions of this bill were briefly
these : the masters were at present appointed by
the heritors, subject to the approval of the Presbytery,
who afterwards exercised very little control over the mas-
ters. It was proposed to get rid of the religious test alto-
gether and the superintendence of the presbytery; and
that was the strong objection of the national church to the
bill. But he contended that the security for the religious
education of the people was not in the control of the pres-
bytery, or in the tests applied to the master, but in the re-
ligious feeling of the people generally. (Hear.) If they
found that their children were not properly d
they would remove them from the school, or get the school
master removed. Who, in this country, would retly4o
oforr
the religious instruction of his children on some
paper signed by the schoolmaster? (Hear.)
change proposed by the bill was the establishment offurther
e

:ii1:.:Eii.„1"...,t ,
' -:‘=''..:Et.,-:7; iti.,
&
~:, et:. \..„,ise. 17:: • --%
i-.
--7,—.: ••• .:,-,' -

schools in parishes at the expense Of ilia iatTepayersl uric
the superintendence of a local board of management;-c4;',A
controlled by a general board and visiting inspectors. TWi'l4.
was about the best system which could he devised ; it se-, -
care,l both local responsibility advantazcs of cen-'
tral supervision and direccion. By thi4 toe:..ns boh the
quantity and qual.ty of education 1.3 improved. He
disapproved of the clause which g Lye the ceotr..l 1303 rd the
.00v.rer of di,oiissing the schoolmaster, and trusted that
that provi ion would be altered. (Hear.) He was con&
thnt that the measure as a whole would greatly promote
the interests of Scotland ; and it was the duty of the legit.,
lature to take care that they did not hand down those in-
terests to those who should come after them in a worse
condition than they found them. (Hear.)
Mr. HACKIE said the system at present pursued was of
a most liberal description. The effect of the proposed i'.‘l-
- would be to substitute for the guiding care of the
clergyman, who was always on the spot, the casual in-
structions of a gentleman, who knew nothing whatever of
the local wants of the district. He objected to the aboli-
tion of the tests ; this would leave no security whatever
for the religious character of the teachers. He would sup-
port the second reading of the bill if the Government took
security that the schoolmasters should be protestants ; but
if not, he would support the amendment of the hon. mem-
ber for Perthshire. (Hear.)
Mr. HUME said that he desired to state explicitly OR
the present occasion the opinions of those whom he repre-
sented. Although there were many differences of opinion
on the mode of regulating the system of education, there
was great unanimity that education should be improved
and extended. The present measure, although there were
parts of it which he objected to, and which he would en-
deavour to amend in committee, was on the whole satis•
factory. The hon. gentleman who had just spoken heel
asked why they meddled with the old parochial establish-
ments ? For this reason, that alterations had taken place
in the opinions of a large portion of the people of Scot.
land, which rendered a change in the school system neces-
sary. The people of Scotland desired to have an extended
religious and secular education, but it was impossible that
a minority could have the superintendence of the schools.
Formerly Scotland was distinguished for the education of
her people, but whilst other nations were advancing Scot-
land was deteriorating. When he was a boy Otero was no
distinction or debate as to religion. All met together in
the school, and he wished to bring things back to that po-
sition again. (Hear, hear.) He did not mean to' say that
the parochial system had not done immense good,. or that
the Presbyterian body in general had not done their duty.
He did not vote for the second reading on that huonatla
but because circumstances and opinions had altered, and is
was their duty to adapt their legislation to the new state
of things that had arisen. If it was in his power to I tarry
out his own viows, he would have the expense of educa-
tion defrayed, not from the public funds, but like the pver
laws from local rates. (Hear, hear.) He believed that by
such a system the members of the education cominitt ee
would, like the ho and of guardians, be a check on Prn-
proper conduct. In New York, Kentucky and Massachu-
setts, that system hart been adopted, and was found to wor
most admirably. Secular education was what was given tce
those schools, yet there was as great a desire to obtain SI
sound religious educati on, according to their views, in those
I states, as in any part of Scotland. (Hear, hear.) The sta-
tistics of crime in America showed that it was only in
very small proportion to• the population that the native
educated American was g uilty of crime. But, as he was not
able to carry out his own views on this subject, he was
willing to accept the next best thing —namely, government
aid combined with local rates. He was sorry to say, that
there was a w ant of inclination ou the part o parents to
send their children to school. In the county of Norfolk,
where he resided there was plenty of school-room, but the
parents, ignorant of the value of education to the future
welfare of their childron, did not send them. Looking at
the number of persons who were lost to society from igno-
rance, the crime which was engendered, and the violation
of property which took place frora the same cause,he hoped
they would all unite in promoting and extending educa-
tion. (Hear, hear.) The nob.° lord said he would give up
one clause of the bill. He (Mr. Hume) hoped that he would
also give up the 27th clause. He thought that no school-
mastr should be dismissed till he had been tried and had
au opportunity of defending himself. The principle of the
bill was to provide an united and improved system of re-
ligious and secular education, and on that ground he would
support the snood reading. (Hear, hear.)
Col. BLAIR denied that the opponents of this bill were
opposed to the extension of education in Scotland, but he
differed from the Lord Advocate as to the inefficiency with
which the parochial schools were conducted at present.
Nor did he rest upon his own judgment merely in defend-
ing those institutions. The Chancellor of the Exchequer
had in his speech at Manchester warmly eulogised the pa-
rochial schools of Scotland, and attributed to their exist.
ence the success of Scotchmen in all the pursuits of life.
His (Col. Blair's) opinion was that the Scottish system of
education was one that you might extend but could not
possibly improve. The hon. and gallant member pro-
ceeded to show what bad been done already for education,
both by the national and free churches in Scotland. The
Established Church and the assembly had together 1,000
schools providing education for several thousand children.
The assembly was annually increasing its number of
schools, and was prepared to go still farther should the
educational necessity of the country require it. It had
been alleged that the Government bill was popular is
Scotland, but he believed the contrary to be the case.
The General Assembly of the Established Church had
pronounced against it, and in the free church several of
the most eminent leaders had expressed hostile opinions
concerning it. The hon. and gallant member proceeded to
quote the opinions of free church divines against the bill,
and contended fuither, that the laity were opposed to it as
well as the clergy. He was not opposed to a measure for
extending education in Scotland, but he was strongly op-
posed to a proposition which would interfere with those
institutions, the parochial schools, from which the popula-
tion of Scotland had derived so much benefit.
Mr. COWAN repuliated a statement which, he said, if
not made in distinct terms in that house, hal been hazarded
in Scotland and out of doors, that this bill was to encou-
rage infidelity. He had the highest respect for the parish
schools of Scotland, but he hoped to see them so improved
that they would be the means of bringing a sound and
cheap education to all classes of the community. The ob-
jection that the system proposed by the Government was
one of godless education had been advanced over and over
again against the national system of education in Ireland ;
yet the success which had attended the establishment of
that measure could not be disputed, and he believed it
would be found one of the most efficient means towards
the regeneration of that country. (Hear, hear.) He
hoped the members for Ireland would support a measure
which would confer upon Scotland those benefits which
they now enjoyed. He considered that was a most valu-
able provision of the bill which took out of the hands of
the clergy the educational superintendence of the people.
He implored the house to consider the responsibility that
would attach to them if they threw out a measure which
was intended to confer the blessings of education upon the
rising generation of Scotland.
Mr. NAPIER admitted the responsibility which their de-
cision upon the principle of this bill imposed upon the
house, but he thought they ought, before they assented to it,
to take care that that principle was sound. The bill pro-
posed to introduce a national system of education for Scot-
land, and the argument upon which it proceeded was, that
the established curch of Scotland, in which the control of
the existing system rested, did notrepresent the feelings of
the majority of the community. The objection he took to
it was, that it was not supplementing the agency of the
Established Church, but was superseding that agency,
which was bound up in the feelings of the people—that in-
stead of reforming the parochial schools, and supplement-
ing upon them something that should fill up the unoccu-
pied ground, it proposed to overturn the existing agency
altogether. A civil board was to be appointed under the
control of the Government, and an inspection was provided,
but that religion should be connected with the system of
teaching was not provided either in reference to the inspec-
tion or the teachers. If religion were, as he contended it
was, an essential element of education, it ought not to be
superintended exclusively by a Government board, but
should be insome degree under the superintendence of the
ministers of religion. One clause of the bill provided that
the board should, from time to time, make regulations,
opar-
ticularly as to the inspection of schools and exandi tiel?
schoolmastersenforce
the
in
regulationsreligious
the
they
andmade.
Th Me
mo knowledge,
t eguler,awa na ds
tote
board—the
was to be entirely enrolled by the Governmentnts
ate
be a member of the school committee, but that committe•
the_ Scotch minister would be powerless, and his intenrestr
of
y
diminished, if not destroyed. Vie chart. to
to be proud, was now
people, which had been formed by their system of educa-
tion, and of which they had reason
to be moulded by this board, and instead of taking up this
old and valued system, and, if necessary, improving it, it
was to be cast aside for what ho thought a wild and delusive
experiment. As ho objected to this attempt to transfer
the education of Scotland from the hands of its religions
instructors to a Go vernment board, he should oppose the
bill.
Mr. COBDEN said that he should not have intruded
himself in the debate but that one English member had
spoken whose remarks required some observations. His
honourable friend, the member for Rochdale, had a mind
so logical and acute, that if he made a speech which failed
to convince his audience, it must be because he had an
impossible case to deal with. His hon. friend said that
he was opposed to all state provision for education. But
no one wanted it. Every one wanted a local system regu-
lated by Act of Parliament. His hon. friend went on
with a defence of his objections to a system of national
education, and there he thought that his bon. frfend had
landed them in the slough of despond altogether, for he
pointed to large cities with teeming populations immersed
in ignorance, and asked how they were to be educated.
He thought that there was hope for his honourable friold,
even from the Scottish view of the question. Large cities
did not reproduce their population, which, if they weals
left to themselves, would die out in a few generations:.
but their populations were reproduced because they were
recruited from agricultural districts. If, then, you wanted
to improve the character of the populations of towns, you
must have not merely education for great cities but general
education(—hear, hear)—and in proportion to the progress
of general education would the character of life in cities
be improved. His hon. friend said that if you went into
the narrow courts of cities, where there was no ventila-
tion and no scavenging, you would find an outcast and dee
graded population. Where did they come from ? Did
they come from that part of Great Britain which for a cen-
tury had had a national education ? Did you find in this
degraded population any considerable number of Scotch-
men ? Why was that ? Why was it, as an hon. gentleman
had said, when a Scotchmen appeared in a place in Austra•
lie with his blue bonnet on that he was surrounded by •
mob of persons anxious to engage his services. It wa
because he came from a country where there watso somes
national education. His (Mr. Cobden's) plan w
that aimproved, but generally.
ve
His
118111)lished, the
national education, not only that in Scotlandriaendfrievenend
said, if a system of national education was
ds said that the
somewhat inconsistent, for lie and his frien
people would not come to it. In that his noble e
friend was
one in eight, and yet
seven went to school, and in Scotland
le would not send
population was educated; that in England one child in
he said that if you had good schools peop
_e )
bd s experience
tshheoiwrodchhiilmdretnhatot
if Theemre.
wilasisa flood school, and especially
where there was a good master, there was an
. instinctive.
desire on the themselves, they
part of the people to send their children to
them, and even when they, were ignorant.
had an instinctive knowle ige when their children werein2-
proving. A good master sent a child home in good spirit'
from school, and not languid and depressed, for a good
master must himself have good physical spirits and energy.
and thus the children were enlivened by going to school,
and the parents soon saw it. His hon. friend and his party
were opposed to any (national education, and deny that
the question of education ought to be dealt with by this
house or the Government. Now, tha topinion was calcu-
lated to raise a party in England and Scotland, whit&
would tend to the abandonment of all hope of a national.
education, since there was no scheme on which all parties
could agree, and then the people moist take the
matter into
their own hands. He (Mr. Cobde]t) thought this bill WWI