The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-11 00:00:00

(THIS DAY.)

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IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

COURTS. On the motion of LCOUNTYord BROUGHAM, certain returns
:were ordered connected with the expenses of proceedings
In County Courts.

TNSORTATIO
, Earl GREY then rose P
to move, thatN. an humble ad-
urese
maj be presented to her Majesty, praying that her
es-3' will be graciously pleased to give directions that
!nitee arrangements with respect to the punishment of cri-
ne's sentenced to transportation, which were in force in
the year 1852, may not be changed in such a manner as
to prevent the ultimate removal of such offenders from
this country until a full account of any contemplated al-
heterafotrieonpiarniitahme 13]•
Portunit ove arrangements shall have been laid
t" and the Parliament have had an op-
tendd to y of considering the measures it may be in-
tend ado
tion, pt previously to their being carried into
in an
execu He said he did not bring forward the motion
tion y spirit of hostility to the Government. The ques-
of secondary punishment never had, and he trusted
never would be considered with any reference to party
tilics. It was not his object by this motion to enable
oft!. lordships to pronounce a judgment on the question
it
ar; usportation, or to call upon them to say that
that (4114 or should not be continued, but to ask
on an address be presented to her Majesty, re-
riVadesntinl her to. command that no vital change should be
for tw that system of punishment which. had existed
th ° centuries in this country until their lordships and
itethyoeasunsiroesi Parliament had been made acquainted
ow ip tpe
o°rtthhneenr
proposed to be adopted, and had an
noble earl pronouncing an opinion upon them. The
eediu entered into a history of the policy of pre-
g 40vernments on the subject of transportation,
a4(l exPres •
Pres, sing his surprise at the. course. taken by the
spiritnntiGo.:Ternment, said it was inconsistent with the .
the ‘ne law that while transportation remained. on. i
statute-book as the principal punishment, it was in
°int co fact
in .
ear),, from and point of law to be repealed. " Hear,
ti r°lll Lord Campbell.) He begged to call atten-
vrichtnii what had taken place within a few years, and
ha e thought had a material bearing on the subject,
a"." blade it more disrespectful to Parliament to take the
course which Wise the Government had adopted than it other-
ado Might have been. Some years ago a measure was
Isi„,,ttec. Soy the Government by which transportation to
order 'N)uth Wales was at once put an end to by an
nob 0
eir in council. He knew the difficulty to which the
Via)jie. earl opposite was exposed by that measure.. (Hear,
It was intended that the number of convicts not ,
dr nePorted should be continually increased ; but an ad-
her as moved in the House of Commons praying that
trans ai4tY would not allow the number of convicts notd
-81)°rted to be so increased, and that was came
against of i., the Government of Lord Melbourne. The house
t
to `:.?ronions, therefor; declared that it was inexpedient bev,tseontinue sending convicts abroad ; and they had
tae ;
th knee expressed any other opinion, although during
had Government of Lord John Russell various attempts
Yonbee, n°,.lll,ado to obtain a contrary opinion from the.
le 8-
''' Cade
on the subject. No decision reversf
e,:ff that of 1840 was ever adopted by the House o
lonnllll°l2B. Therefore, so far as the other
.houos; was
ho_e_craed, it remained on record as the op
to Ut6e, that the ultimate removal of convicitsmnsnentenced
die raosportation from this country ought nott to be
this
)10ecti:ntinued. How was it with regard
grey. : ~,11, In the year 1846 it became necessaryettshatfoar
arr,iTange should be made in the arrangements
44,1: ng Into effect the sentence of transpo
.3toNvilliilirricleaalfleeteae:(loEaersen:srineWGilhr of
which were
the Government.dd
dfeocri e
the uponurpcoesre-
wweaarea proposedrnember
soon Prnving the mode of effecting this punishment.P As
Cohtajuip Measures had been decided upon, papers
kajest.,,,,'g
,a full explanation of the views of her
for its 8 t°,en Government were laid before Parliament,
did notersid, eration. Now, although these measures
moval ef°ll)l3' any discontinuance of the ultimate re-
it was ennliets from this country—on the contrary,
,notenvewelattno etarZtpiaoirta part of the plan that convicts sen-
d; tion should, as heretofore, be re-
ntoobie
.oafndPaire"
rionnosieder:ll kneea-ia‘4rra before their discharge—yet very
was excited in this and the other
la'arninedentfriwenhden they were announced. A
voZniittee (Lord Brougham) moved a
ih of their lordshi s's house, and the then Go-
leveis-.ent assented to its aP ointment. That committee
1.. _t,
..,,aka eted the subject, examined all the judges of Eng-
1e ii,T,cePt one then recently appointed, and almost all
."-Airtles of Scotland and Ireland. [Lord Brougham
4kap.; 'ne criminal law judges.] They examined the
418:raes and governors of prisons—all the
ewrosorning
of
th I e greatest practical experience of . k
whom they had exa-
4ted :??' After that examination the committee reported.
minited "that nearly all those
, h
that it had terroorss.
Nil(' 24 agreed that thenpoudn,iashomdent of transportation
hie not safely be
.aband
the
Sea ano other mshm mot —doerattedh ofnulrytheoxrc,e,,ptTedha
excepted—pos-
ed That eommittee rep
the nee, both from France and elsewhere abroad, of
441.1441 effects produced
.byttrhmesliboefrationof
1. - at the end of theirimprisonment,eri m i
-
wohi,
%r seem strongly to showe the necessity for con-
We nig the present mode of transportation.". They
.-llt on to state, as the result of all their inquiries,
might say here that the
to-and he (Earl Grey)m
epticill?littee was vaetrythneu numerously attended—" that their
punishment of transportation
114,,,°14ecillbewraset'aintbed for serious offences; that such punish-
,!! should be carried into effect in some instances im-
aleniately, in others, at later pethriodisseo;ntnhtaryt
orth
ges of punishment, whether in einafirtpehset.
Neales, should be of a reformatory as well as of .
las 84... character ; and that. the later stages
.should, in all
li..nne.es, be carried into effect in the colonies, the con-
at
~being for that purpose retained. in the qualified re-
livaint to which, under the then existent system of trans-
Pae,..3rtati°n, men 'holdir* g tickets of leave or conditional
iao,..".wris were subject." Such was the opinion of the
14.4b1:111_4e; No vote was come to upon the subject in.
that her Majesty's
and for this reason, that it was understood
tilt, 'er Majesty's Government should carry into effect
act :iews of that committee. The Government d
was
de .' :at the same time, much valuable information
Z°Clive(' from the colony, and upon that, and thseidfaercats.
i :tc(' by the committee, after very careful con
N.,°", a scheme for the future management of convictsera.
tok,i.ihatured. A. full account of that scheme was
as
*4.l;eti in various dispatches, which, almost as soon
of
1, rtnn, were laid upon the tables of both houses
Iteac hamen
~, t. It was only two years ago, in moving the
Grey) reading of the Convicts' Prisons Bill, he (Earl
ciPle."„,nad occasion to explain to their lordships the prin-
lveui, nd objects of the measures then decided upon. He
what o, herefore, not weary the house by going over
colite,h had so lately fully entered upon, but would
Plati '''••nitaself with reminding their lordships that this
that PS) with one modification, precisely the same as
of
the etermined upon in the year 1846. The principle
Poiki Plan was that the more severe portion oft this Dortatiteent consequent upon the !sentence of . ratnhe
cl'iitr°l3 ahmild be inflicted upon criminals
.in t
kitd Y that they should be subjected to different
eOl4 ofL shat
under the best schemes that
toile ti 'le devised, and that, after having under-
t° th,,,rnilishinent of this kind, they should be removed
snbjer,Nonies being still placed in a state of modified
they '7l°ll for some time. It was at first intended thath
ass tei:t°llld have conditional pardons, the effect of whic
cxce t tithes would be free upon arriving at the. colony,
icor.olPt,y I they Were restrained from. returning to this
to sent sent ' wan afterwards determined that they should
they out with tickets of leave only, by which means
.uliat Were still kept under a certain degree of control.
to keefialre h
l say h d . e (Earl Grey) would take upon himself
lad au a elnee been in very successful operation. It '
zizitniihenawnevaridederibnogthtzani. deterringand as a reformatory
'gat, blent• Now, he old submit to their lordships
,4 ih43 °4 Punishment was adopted,
euonndseirdewrinligichthathtaitt
aoaed- enecessful opera.tion, they ou.ght not to have
NI °nett fr -Of thlightly and without a substitute, an essential.
°l4 this 6 Ineasure. The ultimate removal of convicts
k4B 4 4-` ecnilltrY Was an essential part of the plan, both.
ent.e'eurrienag2ind still more as a reformatory. punish-
ii,iverpt
Of
the
tlahat an involuntary exile was a deter-
a'a C ucf°re th P n upon the authority of the. evidencetl
enter
house
we committee. He knew he might be
been
d,
trggrely changes' told not long since, that this had
wi4tltia ; but he hy the recent discovery of gold in Aus-
ui
si cott„,co roUst.confess that he heard that argument
,:n the fact 7 fitonishnient. In the first place, he de-
b, 'way i,that the recent discoveries of gold had in
Lieolq refe7.P. ired. the efficacy of transportation. He
i• 41 (Lord tr? his noble and learned friend behind
,!eent circuitsaniPhell), who had stated that upon
iiransportavo he had found the punishment of
1,,°, (Earl Grey) ae much dreaded as ever. Since
44.4t.'ectiiilleerilsroozil,113:)chealiiddigitoven notice of this motion, it had
thateportation him by the chaplain of one of
0 t iere was no part of the sentence of
1,,n,.._he found so dreaded as the ultimate exile ;
1141Thiet.44 ;trnecietlijilenavvvelicetg'9lllllprisoned after sentence, al-
had
tta.tekepinat
kind,
of their sentence corn-
tile.ltllreeoiert
lionr_sreseintiiepe; ifi within the last few weeks he bad
questiot isoennt e n
.at And
considera-
telyddinspooonvoryof gold., el 1 i a t h 1:„ .
..1; 4.3 attinv
~
thoughi:tor.o v ..
.1.0n0.01.8wg.
ea.ersi
ot
ler
igc
l u. an g beforese . he
oi
eil
h,o,otoef Under etro thetranstransportationregulations
th46° to the ti•
ecntn toey
years'
ia at
convict,libery
11l rag ;v1 neexeseb t
epesve t 0 10 or 12 years
llontttioantiaille, anobtheeeril
one re'Yhutconuip conviction, meet have xemp exemplary from
110 Must Nitre cl go to the gold fields _waited 84 years
%aid th • Now . rememberinas
and labur of
in spent
te
in
severehe .g
1 ?uofmtyhastec3lu4syioenaros,f
e/ I:*' supposed to act ugponwuaanty peuriaenYLeipre eweof dre;
, ,

liberate reason ? Did a man pick a pocket because,
after due consideration, he had come to the decision
that he ought to do so ? Crimes were generally com-
mitted because those who committed them did not
reason, and, not reasoning, did net possess sufficient
strength of mind to resist temptation. Were these the
men, then, to commit crime for the sake of being trans-
ported, in order that, at the end of 10, or 12, or 15
years, after undergoing a punishment of awful severity,
they might be at liberty to take their chance with other
scramblers for gold at the diggings ? The notion was
so utterly irrational that he (Earl Grey) was convinced
that no noble lord would attempt to assert it. He did
not deny that there might be men who had given
as a reason for their crimes that they wanted to go to
the digging. He knew that in 1830 he had had letters
from criminals stating that they had committed
crimes for the purpose of being transported. There
were not wanting in the records of our criminal courts
cases of persons who had incurred the penalty, even of
death, from a morbid desire to undergo punishment.
But taking mankind as a body, he believed that tran-
sportation as it had lately been inflicted, contained more
that was alarming to 99 men out of 100 than any other
punishment. One reason for this was that it contained,
he might say, many different elements. But it was not
merely the difficulty of obtaining employment, which
was obviated by the present system of emigration : a
sudden return to unrestrained liberty was also prevented.
Experience had shown that a sudden change from strict
control to unrestrained freedom was more than a man
could bear. It was even so in the colonies, and thus it
was that the system of sending out men with conditional
pardons was changed. When the convicts had condi-
tional pardons it was found that they speedily relapsed
into former idle and disorderly habits. The system of
assignment was then adopted and persevered in until
disapproved by the House of Commons. The system of
granting tickets of leave was then adopted. Under this
system the effect had been very gratifying. The papers
upon their lordships' table would show that the convicts
had in many instances set examples which might well be
followed by free labourers. In the case of a convict
who had committed a very serious offence, one who had
barely escaped capital punishment, through the Secre-
tary of State commuting it to transportation for life, it
might be quite safe to release him at the end of four or
five years, if he were removed to a distant colony, and there
placed under restrictions still tolerably severe, though a
great improvement on his former condition, and though
he must pay a considerable sum of money, and do a con-
siderable amount of work before he could obtain a con-
ditional pardon. Such a man, who had committed a
crime which was only distinguished by a nice shade from
murder, might, under such conditions, be safely re-
leased, after four or five years, from Portland ; but what
would be the effect if, after those four or five years of
seclusion, he were allowed to go back to his old com-
rades, and say : " See what I have done ; I knocked out
the brains of the keeper of the prison," or, "I have been
a notorious housebreaker for ten years ; and, after four
or five years, which I don't much care about (for that
was always the language they held), here I am back
again. Don't be afraid of the sentence of the law ; that
is the worst it can do. Join with me, and we will break
open another house." (Hear, hear.) To allow men of
this kind to return to their old haunts would destroy all
reformatory discipline. No one who knew anything at
all of the criminal law would believe that this would be
safe. But what was the alternative ? To prolong the
period of punishment. (Hear, hear.) But precisely as
they prolonged that period, precisely as they made very
distant the period when good conduct would procure a
release—precisely in the same degree did they diminish
the influence of that hope which was now the main in-
strument of Government in leading convicts to behave
well in our prisons at home. If a man was told that,
let him behave ever so well, he must continue in that
gloomy retreat for ten or twelve years, it was greatly to
be feared that the hope of accelerating the period of his
discharge would lose its effect, and that he would net
think it worth while to exert himself in the hope of.
knocking off one or two days at the end of that period,
and that he might as well be guilty of some breach of
discipline, and enjoy himself as he could while in pri-
son. To prolong the period of prison discipline would
cut off the main source whence its excellence was de-
rived, and would render the hope now excited in the
minds of the convicts comparatively null. He assumed
that it would be argued, by those who opposed his
motion, not that transportation was otherwise than useful
in itself and beneficial, but that it must of necessity be
given up—that it was impracticable to remove from this
country the hundreds of convicts who were now looking
forward to transportation. He denied the validity of
that argument. If they were to abandon transportation,
because Van Diemen's Land could not be called on longer
to receive convicts, and there was no other place to which
they could be sent, the Government ought to have taken
the course se hich was adopted by their predecessors. As
far as his information went, he was not aware of any
sufficient reason for abandoning the practice of removing
convicts to Van Diemen's Land ; but, for the sake of ar-
gument, he would concede that it must be abandoned.
Granting that this was so, what was the proper course ?
He found no fault with the dispatch written by the late
Colonial Secretary, who said he thought that transpor-
tation to Van Diemen's Land ought to stop, but that
Government could not fix the precise date of the change.
(Hear.) The late Government proposed to submit cer-
tain changes in the law, which they thought necessary
in order to effect this alteration in the practice, and at
the same time to make certain arrangements by which
they thought these alterations might be accomplished
without injury. (Hear.) That was a perfectly legiti-
mate course, and had it been adhered to by the present
Government, it would have been perfectly practicable,
by arrangements which might have been made, and
changes in the law which might have been proposed—
not certainly without considerable expense—to put
an end, at no distant period, to transportation to
Van Diemen's Land, and at the same time to
maintain that punishment to an extent sufficient to
answer the most important purposes. (Hear, hear.)
Look at the present condition of Van Diemen's Land.
The colony was wealthy far beyond any other colony
ever founded in the world, he believed, in proportion to
its size. It possessed many of the advantages of an old
country—neat farm-houses, hawthorn hedges, good
grounds, all the means of civilised life, a perfect police,
the most perfect safety—greater than we enjoyed in this
country—from offences. All this comfort and wealth,
all this fortunate and prosperous state of things, had
been created exclusively by the enormous expenditure of
this country. (Hear.) Was it, then, just or reasonable
that, precisely at the moment when Van Diemen's Land
could receive convicts with most advantage to itself, as
well as to the mother country—when the colonists had
derived so much benefit from convict labour and convict
expenditure—they should turn round on the mother
country and say—" We will not only not tolerate receiv-
ing convicts, but we will not even give you time in
making the change, to consult Parliament or to adopt
any other plan to relieve you from the great inconveni-
ence which the change must occasion ?" But he be-
lieved that Van Diemen's Land would have been per-
fectly satisfied with the promise given by the late Go-
vernment. They might have done all that had been
done, and at the same time have avoided the embarrass-
ment that had ensued ; but was it certain that this was
the deliberate and settled opinion of the community, and
not merely clamour ? Though a clamour were loud, it
did not follow that it was reasonable ; of this there had
been instances in the present day. As far as we had the
means of judging, there was every indication that this
opinion against convicts was not adopted on sound reason
and adequate grounds. In the first place; the cry was
quite new. It was unheard of when he began to attend
to the subject ; and he was one of those who were most
anxious to put an end to transportation as it had been here-
tofore conducted, for the purpose of arriving at the very
plan which had been lately in operation ; because, with-
out giving himself credit for superior discernment, he
might state that nearly twenty years ago he had ex-
pressed an opinion in favour of such a plan. There were
colonists and newspapers as rabid then on the other side
as they were now. They were as ready then to denounce
as enemies of their country any one that should venture
to suggest the possibility of their being any abuses in
the existing system of transportation. He held in his
hand an extract from the report of a committee of the
legislative council of New South Wales which sat on the
subject in 1846 ; and it seemed to be the theory of that
committee that people at home ought to commit crimes
in order that there might be plenty of labour in the
colonies ; for they came to a resolution to the effect that
not fewer than 5,000 male convicts should be annually
transported to New South Wales. Nor was the com-
mittee at all apprehensive that any moral evil of any
sort or kind would follow the importation into the
colony of so large a number of convicts, because they
argued that the free population had obtained so great a
head and mastery over the convict population that if the
proposal was carried out, the vast absorbing and dis-
persing powers of the colony would prevent the convicts
from ever swamping the free population as they had
donettae ne
fitness
cVo
committee
Diemen's
tctoeloon
agreed
rtoo
od Land.
receive
with
convictsThusi im i n theythi
increasedowk ionugl d see
withithatt
h
the increase of its free population. (Hear, hear.) It
rweaserf portpinelctBl4y7t;ruhoetthitawt
atshre council
ema
rkaaldei dte
ohn
ooht co or
vn
ec uo or
win n h tohme
thoer sai di rem;
who was also
chairman
dw
aans
this committee was composed,
o membersd opponentwas
ofM trr.anspworeiaton. Yet Sir
other Mr,
Wentworth, now the oracle of the o
ndowitaaledaedteiurmg
Charles Wentworth stated that up to the end of the
session of 1848, since which time the
system
cer-
tainly not become worse, but better,
these had
professed their unreserved concurrence in the report
of
the committee. In that year, too. the legislative coun-
cil deliberately came to a resolution, requesting that
convicts should again be sent to them. But more than
this. The present chairman of the Anti-Convict League
was one Mr. Cooper, and he (the noble earl) found from
e
the colonial newspapers that this same gentleman was a
member of an association which was formed in 1846 by
the settlers in Port Philip, for the purpose of raising
money to defray the expense of importing " expirees"—
that was, not persons who had undergone the improved
system of convict discipline, but those who had composed
the probation gangs in Van Diemen's Land at a time
when their discipline was notoriously bad. (Hear, hear.)
Again, be found that at the present time a very large
number of the most respectable and intelligent settlers in
Van Diemen's Land had signed a petition, praying that
the system might be continued. He believed it was not
upon the table of the house, but he had seen it in a co-
lonial newspaper, and he had no doubt as to its authen-
ticity. At the same time, he was far from denying that
there were many persons in the colonies who entertained
a very eincere opinion against transportation ; but he
thought the circumstances he had mentioned showed that
the opinion had not been very deliberately or very soberly
formed. On the contrary, he believed that it might be
mainly traced to the language which had been held in this
country. People here talked about "the disgraceful penal
colonies," and that had prevented emigration to Van
Diemen's Land until the colonists had begun to feel it.
The colonists were very sensitive about what was said

and thought of them in the mother country ; and,
though there was perhaps a little vanity in this, the
feeling was on the whole praiseworthy, and did them
credit. He only wished they would estimate a little
more correctly what the opinion of this country really
was. But this was a tender point with the colonists ;
for the more they could induce people to settle amongst
them the greater would be the value of their property.
They imagined that being a penal colony prevented emi-
gration to them, but there could not be a more complete
mistake. He had already said that the first free settlers
were tempted to settle there by the cheap labour which
was promised them. It was only three years since the
first convicts were sent to Western Australia. Previous
to that time the colonists were on the point of abandon-
ing the settlement ; but now he actually found an article
in the Western Australian Magazine congratulating them
on the fact that the convicts had led to a great accession
to the better classes of society there. (A. laugh.) Did
noble lords really believe that if the numerous persons
in this country who were desirous of emigrating, and
who had a little money to invest, were offered Land in
Van Diemen's Land at a moderate price, with a gratui-
tous passage there, and at the same time a plentiful sup-
ply of cheap convict labour, as well as a market for their
produce at the high prices which they must command
since the discovery of gold—did they really believe that
persons contemplatinglemigration would not soon find
out that Van Diemen's Land was the place to go to in
order to get rich—especially if they saw that there was
such an admirable police that they might enjoy perfect
safety ? (Hear, hear.) They might talk till they were
tired about the moral disadvantages of a convict popu-
lation, but with such prospects they would never pre-
vent persons from going there. Certainly, if he (the
noble earl) were contemplating emigration, Van Die-
men's Land would be the colony he should hoose. But
if transportation ceased, any man that expected to make
his livelihood other than by the labour of his own
hands, would be insane to go there ; because it was ob-
vious that no produce he could raise by the means of
labourers, to whom he must pay such wages as would
deter them from going to the diggings, would have any
chance of competing in the market with that brought
from America or even England. (Hear, hear.) How-
ever, as the legislative council had spoken, he must
assume that it expressed the opinions of the community ;
and, right or wrong, that opinion was that transportation
should cease. But when he was told that the inhabitants
of Van Diemen's Land and Western Australia would
rebel, and that the example of the American colonies
would be followed, he could hardly forbear from smiling
at the perfectly ludicrous contrast between the two cases.
What similarity was there between the strong feeling
which had led to the ejection of tea into Boston harbour,
and the feeling which did not prevent the scenes which
took place at the arrival of the convict ships ? Why, in
a recent paper there was a most graphic account of the
tumult which such an event occasioned. Even the as-
sistance of the military had to be invoked to restrain the
crowds of rich and poor who assembled, not to drive
away the convicts from their shores, but to secure their
services. (Hear, hear.) What a contrast between the
persons who had indulged in this foolish talk in the co-
lonies, and the great men of the American revolution—
men not less distinguished for their moderation than their
firmness—men whose moderation was such that, had
there been the smallest infusion of political wisdom in
the councils of this country, the calamitous struggle and
the secession of those colonies would never have taken
place. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the amendment
which he understood the noble earl (Lord Chichester)
intended to propose, he trusted that it would not be
pressed. If he wished to take the sense of the house
upon it he hoped the noble earl would bring it on
as a substantive motion, because it was entirely beside
the question he (Lord Grey) wished to place before the
house. The language of that amendment was utterly
incomprehensible. It talked about sending convicts to
colonies which were " incapable" of receiving them.
Surely there must be a mistake, for it was not common
sense. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl wished the govern-
ment to devise a system of secondary punishments which
should be as much dreaded and as reformatory as trans-
portation. Why that was a problem which every civil-
ised nation had been attempting to solve for the last cen-
tury. Yet the noble earl demanded an immediate solu-
tion. Was that rational ? (Hear, hear.) Again, the
noble earl distinctly recommended additional means of
secondary punishment in this country, and admitted that
new buildings would be necessary. Was it then reason-
able to put an end to transportation before these further
arrangements had been provided ? Surely this alone
was sufficient to prove his (Earl Grey's) case. If, how-
ever, the 'noble earl did press his amendment, he (Lord
Grey) trusted the house would deal with it as merely an
indirect way of evading a question which the Govern-
ment did not feel prepared to meet. Was it right, three
months after the ships had been chartered which should
have taken convicts out, they should be discussing what
to do with them ? Surely the course the Government
had taken was an erroneous one ; but it was still not too
late for Parliament to interfere, and he asked them,
therefore, to agree to the resolution of the terms of which
he had given notice, viz. :—" That an humble address
be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty
will be graciously pleased to give directions that the
arrangements with respect to criminals sentenced to
transportation, which were in force in the year
1852, may not be changed in such a manner as
to prevent the ultimate removal of such offenders
from this country until a full account of any contem-
plated alteration in the above arrangements shall have
been laid before Parliament, and till Parliament shall
have had an opportunity of considering the measures it
may be intended to adopt previously to their being car-
ried into execution."

The Earl of ABERDEEN said it would perhaps be
convenient for him to state thus early in the debate the
views of her Majesty's Government upon the subject ;
and he did so the more readily, because notwithstanding
the appeal of the noble earl, he could not help enter-
taining some hope that he (Lord Grey) would not him-
self be disposed to press his motion on the house. In
the first place this motion was one of a very unusual
character. It was an intervention of a description
rarely exercised towards the legitimate use of the pre-
rogative of the crown, and of the executive government.
(Hear.) The noble earl thought the Government had
done something which required the sanction of Parlia-
ment to authorise. They had done no such thing.
(Hear, hear.) Had they been disposed to take any step
requiring the sanction of Parliament they should most
readily have requested the house to authorise or refuse
their assent to such a proceeding. But they bad done
nothing of the kind. All they had done was that which,
right or wrong, wise or unwise, it was perfectly com-
petent for them in the exercise of the discretion of the
executive Government. (Hear, bear.) He agreed with
the noble earl that this subject had always been treated
as not belonging to any party considerations. (Cheers.)
The subject was one which interested our social con-
dition so nearly, and was so important to the welfare
and happiness of such vast numbers of our fellow-citi-
zens, that it had been very properly put aside from all
considerations of party ; and he (Lord Aberdeen) had
certainly no reason to imagine that the noble earl
at all wished to give it that character. (Hear,
hear.) He was ready to admit that the noble earl and his
colleagues had made great improvement in the treatment
of convicts and in their discipline both at home and
abroad. At the same time he must be permitted to ob-
serve that the difficulties under wjiich they were labour-
ing at that moment had been mainly created, however
unintentionally, by the noble earl himself. The practi-
cal question was, after all, notwithstanding all that the
noble earl had said, could transportation be continued ?
and he would show that the noble earl had made that
impossible. And for this reason—when, in 1846, Mr.
Gladstone was Secretary for the Colonies, he found the
system introduced by the noble earl opposite had led
however well devised (for he was not inclined to find
fault with that system) had led to such abuses, and that
the country had arrived at such a state of horror and
abomination that he (Mr. Gladstone) found himself un-
der the necessity of suspending all transportation for 10
years. Shortly after that declaration a change of Go-
vernment took place, and the noble earl succeeded him.
The noble earl, on the sth February, 1847, wrote to Sir
W. Denison, in Van Diemen's Land, to this effect :
" I have to inform you that it is not the intention of her
Majesty's Government that transportation to Van Die-
men's Land shall be resumed at the expiration of two
years, for which it has been already decided that it shall
be discontinued."
Earl GREY—Read the former part.

The Earl of ABERDEEN was quite ready to admit
that the noble earl intended something different from
what he said. (Earl Grey, loudly, hear, hear.) Well,
if the noble earl would hear, he would state what he was
about to say. Whatever interpretation the noble earl
might put upon this letter now, Sir W. Denison under-
stood it in its plain meaning, and he announced it to his
legislative council, as an intimation that no more con-
victs were to be sent to Van Diemen's Land. (Hear,
hear.) It had thus become a question of good faith, be-
cause the inhabitants had attached that meaning to the
declaration of their own governor, founded upon the
dispatch of the noble earl. (Hear, hear.) Now, he
(Lord Aberdeen) knew very well that what the noble
earl meant was that transportation should not be re-
sumed in the same manner as bad been the practice
before. But neither the governor to whom he wrote,
nor the colonists to whom Sir W. Denison explained it,
understood it so. 'They undoubtedly received a fixed
impression that the late Government intended to abo-
lish transportation to Van Diemen's Land. (Hear.)
Well, but with that conviction on their part, it would
be difficult to disabuse them of their belief, which had
been confirmed to them over and over again by the de-
clarations, the emphatic declarations, of their legislative
council. (Hear.) The noble, in one instance, had writ-
ten that the Government of this country had no right to
send convicts to any colony against the consent of the
inhabitants.

Earl GREY —Not being originally a convict colony.
The Earl of ABERDEEN—Very well ; but surely
tt
uh
re e
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of England that the noble earl supported the declara-
tions of the Legislative Assemblies—was it only the
Canadas that were to be supported in the wishes that
they expressed, and was a colony to protest against a
set of convicts being forced upon them, and were they
not to be listened to or receive any attention from their
lordships ? The noble earl ought to be consistent, and
to give due weight to the voice of those assemblies
which he had helped to constitute in these colonies.
The noble earl had throughout treated the whole of
this subject as if Government had taken a decision to
abolish transportation. Now, they had not only done
no such thing, but they were anxious to preserve
transportation. Undoubtedly the field in which it could
be exercised was diminished ; and,' as he had already
said, whether inadvertently or not, that difficulty had
been mainly created by the noble earl himself. (Hear,
hear.) But there were settlements that still remained,
and he thought that by good management at home the
number of convicts transported might be so diminished
as possibly to find the means of accommodation in those