The Sun.
London, England, 1854-08-09 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, AUGUST 9 1854.

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funds to sell out for the purpose of meeting these Savings
Banks demands. He was happy, however, to say that
the run had stopped, and now the deposits far exceeded
the withdrawals.
After a few words from Mr. W. A. WILKINSON and
Mr. HOME,
Mr. J. S. PHILLIMORE took the opportunity
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bill
was read a third time.
On the question that the bill do pass,
Sir. H. WILLOUGHBY said he believed the Savings'
Banks money had been appropriated to State purposes ;
but if the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would assure him that he had only used
these funds for Savings' Banks purposes, his objection
would fall to the ground.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER declined
to give such an assurance. Savings Banks money was
held by the State in trust for the depositors, but like
private hankers, the State was entitled to sue it for their
own purposes, if they could do so with profit.
The bill was then passed.
ENCUMBERED ESTATES (WEST INDIES) BILL,
This bill was read a third time, and passed.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL (CANADA) BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
CUSTOMS BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
EAST INDIA. COMPANY'S REVENUE
ACCOUNTS.
The resolutions agreed to in committee last night on
his subject wero reported and agreed to.
LORDS' AMENDMENTS.
The Lords' amendments to the following bills were
considered and agreed to, viz. :—Merchant Shipping
Acts Repeal; Metropolitan Sewers; Prisoners Removal;
Episcopal and Capitular Estates Management ; Literary
and Scientific Institutions ; Real Estate Charges ; and
Medical Graduates (University of London).
THE RIVER TYNE.
Mr. W. LINDSAY moved an address to her Majesty,
praying that she will be graciously pleased to appoint a
commission to inquire into the present state of the river
Tyne (one of the highways for navigation under the pro-
tection of her Majesty), whether the encroachments on
the tidal waters of that river by jetties, embankments,
and other works executed and proposed on the banks
thereof have not injured the navigation, and will not
continue to counteract the plans for removing the sand
banks at the mouth of the river, and otherwise injure
the navigation of that important river.
The motion was agreed to, after some remarks from
Mr. INGHAM, Mr. HOME, and Mr. WILSON.
The house then adjourned at three o'clock.

Leasing
Compass.

Closing Prices
this day.

Business
this day.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
On the motion that that the Public Revenue and
Consolidated Fund Charges Bill be read a second time,
Earl GRANVILLE moved that inasmuch as the
provisions of the Public Revenue and Consolidated
Fund Charges (No. 2) Bill are precisely similar to those
of the Public Revenue and Consolidated Fund Charges
Bill as the same were amended in committee in this
house, the report of which amendments was, on the
28th day of July, ordered to be received that day three
months, the peculiar circumstances under which the
said (No 2) bill has been sent up to this house from the
House of Commons make it reasonable that the same be
allowed to be read a second time this day, if the house
shall think to so order.
The motion was agreed to.
On the question being put for reading the bill a second
time,
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE complained of the
loose manner in which the first bill was drawn, and said
the grossest injustice would have been committed had
that bill passed without amendments.
Earl GRANVILLE defended the bill. The amend-
ments had been caused by some verbal mistakes which
had crept into the bill.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE denied that •the
mistakes were verbal. They included, for instance, the
Master of the Rolls, and the Masters in Chancery in
Ireland, whose salaries were proposed to be made the
subject of an annual vote.
Lord MONTEAGLE bore testimony to the defects of
the original bill, especially in the points alluded to by the
noble marquis. The judges of the superior courts of com-
mon law in Ireland, in the administration of justice at
special commissions, wore introduced into the bill. The
Government had only adopted the amendments because
they were in a minority. The bill was prepared with such
such a want of consideration that there had been no pro-
vision made to except persons having a life interest.
There were considerable objections to the bill as it stood,
though he (Lord Monteagle) should not embarrass the
Government by raising them. There was one referring
to the Scotch clergy, which, on examination, appeared
to be for the detention of offenders. The bill was, in
fact, prepared in the most " slip-slop" manner, if he
might be allowed to use so unparliamentary a phrase.
The select committee had adopted a resolution not to
deal with the question of superannuations without fur-
ther infoimation than was laid before them. This was
complained of elsewhere. But he (Lord Monteagle), as
a member of that committee, had applied for the infor-
mation wanting at the Treasury, and the reply was that
the Chaucellor of the Exchequer declined to furnish it.
He (Lord Monteagle), therefore, complained that the
committee should be impugned for neglecting to ask for
information on the subject. He (Lord Monteagle) had
been applied to by Mr. A. Stapleton, late private secre-
tary to Mr. Canning, who had been made Commissioner
of Customs at the request of George IV. The salary
was 1,2001., and Mr. Stapleton held two other appoint.
ments, making 1,900/. a year in all. Subsequently,
Mr. Stapleton resigned his three offices for a retiring
allowance of 9001. a year—thus effecting a saving of
1,0001. a year to the country. Mr. Stapleton had,
however, sought to obtain employment in the service of
the country ; and his income being a subject of public
contract, he (Lord Monteagle) thought it unjust to
place it at the mercy of a committee of supply.
The case of the Bishop of New Zealand was one
in point. The salary of that office had been placed on
the committee of supply, and it had been withdrawn by
the Government after several years' continuance. He
(Lord Monteagle) thought the select committee had
acted quite rightly in asserting the principle they had
asserted, and refusing to proceed in ignorance of the
facts. There was a rumour that the financial business
of the House of Commons was to be transferred to select
committees, on the plan of bureaux in foreign legislative
assemblies, but when the House of Commons parted
with the power of the nurse, and abdicated its func-
tions, it real influence with the country was gone.

Earl GRANVILLE did cot feel inclined to take the
authority of the noble lord, on the subject of Scottish
law, though he would not venture to contradict him on
the subject of Irish law. With regard to the refusal of
the Treasury to give the noble lord the information he
required, he (Lord Granville) had made it his business
to ascertain the facts of the case, and from these it ap-
peared that the noble lord, having had some communi-
cation with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in answer
to a question put to him by the noble lord, the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer stated that the persons most
competent to give him information respecting the bill
were two gentlemen in the Treasury—Mr. Anderson
and Mr. Shelley. The noble lord thereupon wrote to
Mr. Shelley to the effect that he had been authorised by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to ask him and Mr.
Anderson for information, and requesting them to call
upon him with the papers for that purpose. The answer
of Mr. Shelley was, that he and Mr. Anderson would be
happy to call upon the noble lord, but it was necessary
that he should specify what papers he required. To
this the noble lord rejoined that it was a matter of no
consequence ; that he had written the note merely to
save time ; and that the -committee would meet that
afternoon and determine what papers they intended
to call for. Next morning the noble lord called upon
those gentlemen, and asked for information somewhat

vaguely, and they furnished him with certain infor-
mation accordingly, under the impression that he had

he authority orthe Chancellor of the Exchequer to

ask for it. But when the noble lord proposed that they
should give him the estimates that had not then been
laid before the House of Commons, they at once said

that that was a matter beyond their discretion, and they
must therefore refer the noble lord's request to the Chan-
. .

cellor of the Exchequer.

They did so; and the answer

of the Chancellor ofathe Exchequer was, that they must
not give the information to any individual member of
the committee. He (Lord Granville) had also been

assured by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that when
the noble lord asked him as to the proper source of in-
formation, he had no notion that the noble lord, being
himself hostile to the government bill, intended going to
the Treasury to obtain it. At the same time his right
hon. friend stated that it had never entered his head to
refuse to communicate any information which the com-
mittee might require. The noble lord also intimated to
Mr. Shelley that if he did not give him the information
he would move for it in this house. But not only did

he not get tho information from Mr. Shelley, but he
had never moved for it. Nov, whilst he (Lord Gran-

vine) was ready to admit that the Government were
bound to supply ample information to both houses of
Parliament, or to any committee of either house of Par-
liament, he did not think they were bound to allow their
subordinates to give official information privately to any
member of such committee, and thus enable him to
select the weak points of a case—(gear)—omit the
the strong points, and put himself in a position infinitely
superior to that of a person who defended the bill.
(Hear.) He was well aware that nobody better remem-
bered the contents of the papers that were laid before
Parliament, or was more able to place his finger upon any
particular spot in a report, than his noble fpend —(hea.r,
and
a laugh)—nobody, moreover, was so skilfel in extracting
information for the purpose he had in view, both from
friend and foe. (Hear, hear, and laughter). His noble
information
friend did perfectly right to get all the he
could ; and he understood that he had been closeted
with the secretary of
public department one whole
a
hour previous• to the debate coming on, and further,
that a witness, who was likely to be cross-examined by
his noble friend, bad boasted of his presence of mind in
having declined an invitation from his noble friend to
breakfast before the committee assembled, and intimated
at the same time that be would be glad to breakfast
with him after the committee had completed its labours.
(Loud laughter.) The only other point on which the
noble lord dwelt was a rumour which he said was p e
valent, Now, that was not the first time that their
r
lordships had had mere rumours debated in that house ;
he (Lord Granville) must be excused, however, if he de.

' clined to enter into a refutation of rumours that had no
) substance whatever.
ILord MONTEAGLE assured the noble lord that it
had never been his desire to obtain information in an irre-
gular or a disingenuous manner. At the period he was
1 in office as Chancellor of the Exchequer there was a pro-
per officer at the Treasury whose duty it was to answer
those inquiries, and who, when a member of Parliament
went to him, could state whether he might have such
and such a paper or not. At present it was a constant
• cause of complaint that papers were laid upon the table
without due inquiry being first made whether they could
be produced or not.
The Duke of ARGYLL complained of the speeches
of the Marquis of Clanricarde and Lord Monteagle as
conveying an erroneous impression. He utterly denied
that there had been any violation of the principles on
which the Government professed to act.
Lord CAMPBELL said that as apprehensions seemed
to be entertained that something very sweeping was in-
tended hereafter, he hoped the Government would pro-
ceed with great 'caution and deliberation. He should
say that, per iwariant, there bad been some departure
from the principle originally laid down. He had great
respect for the House of Commons ; nevertheless, there
were some functions which it was not desirable that that
house should exercise. IS was a deliberative and an
inqui,;itorial body, and was never designed to be an exe-
cutive Government ; and at the present moment, in fact,
it had not time to discharge the functions with which it
was invested by the Constitution. For his part, there-
fore, he thought that it was very inexpedient, when both
houses of Parliament had decided, after much delibera-
tion, what salary should be attached to particular offices,
to transfer that salary from the Consolidated Fund, and
give to the House of Commons the function of deliberat-
ing every year what the salary should be, and whether
the functionary who held the office had performed his
duty during the year or not.
The bill was then read a second and third time, and
passed.

MILITIA BILLS.
The Militia (No. 2) Bill, the Militia (Scotland) Bill,
the Militia (Ireland) Bill, the Militia Ballots Suspension
Bill, and the Militia Pay Bill, were severally passed
through committee.
PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.

Earl GRANVILLE moved the suspension of the
standing orders, for the purpose of passing this bill
through its several stases.
Earl of SHAFTESBURY said that the law under
which the Board of Health was constituted would ex-
pire at the end of the present session of Parliament ; and
that the necessity for the present measure was rendered
the more urgent by the increase which had taken place
in the mortality arising from cholera. The noble earl
stated that the deaths from these causes in the metro-
polis were—
For the week ending July 15 :
Cholera
Diarrhcea
Total
—5l
For the week ending July 22 :
Cholera
Diarrhcea
Total B4
For the week ending July 29 :
Cholera
Diarrhcea
Total —217
And for the week ending August 5 :
Cholera
Diarrhcea l4B
Total --547
The bill was then read a second and third time, and
passed.

METROPOLITAN SEWERS BILL.
Upon the motion of Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY,
this bill was read a second time, and the standing orders
having been suspended in its regard, it subsequently
passed through all its stages.
MIDLAND GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY OF
IRELAND (BARONIES' CONTRIBUTIONS)
BILL.
The order of the day for the second reading of this bill
having been moved,
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE proposed the fol-
lowing resolution :—" That whereas disputes and litiga-
tion had arisen between the Midland Great Western
Railway of Ireland and the ratepayers of the counties
chargeable with certain payments in respect of the cost
and maintenance of the said railway, it was urgent that
the bill in question should, notwithstanding the late pe-
riod at which it had been brought up from the House of
Commons, be allowed to be read a second time that day
if the house should think fit so to order."
The motion, after some opposition from Lord REDES-
DALE, upon the ground that the circumstances of the case
were not urgent, was read a second time.

Upon the motion of Lord REDESDALE, it was ordered
that Mr. Samuel Smith and Mr. Thomas Erskine May
' should be appointed examiners of standing orders for the
• ensuing session of Parliament.
Lord REDESDALE then moved for _a return of all
houses, buildings, &c., hired for official purposes, includ-
ing Crown property, showing the situation of each ; the
term for which it was held ; the amount of rent and
taxes with which it was chargeable; and the purposes to
which it was applied. The noble lord said he had moved
for these returns with the view of being thus enabled to
demonstrate the expediency—in order to bring the vari-
ous public offices into as convenient a position with re-
spect to one another as possible—of securing the vacant
space of ground between Downing-street and Great
George-street for that purpose. There were also other
matters with respect to rendering Parliament-street a
more suitable approach to both Houses of Parliament,
and with respect to the appropriation of the several pub-
lic buildings throughout the metropolis to particular
uses, upon which he wished to obtain information.
Tho Duke of NEWCASTLE had no hesitation in at
once acceding to the motion of 'the noble lord. He
thought the returns would furnish very useful informa-
tion. (Hear.) He agreed in the abstract with what
his noble friend had said ; but yet consideration was
required in the matter. He had no doubt the returns
moved for would astonish many as to the 'mode in which
the public offices were now managed. They were pay-
ing rent at present for something like 56 different offices,
independent of those offices which might be termed fee-
simple. The sum thus paid in rents was not less than
20,0001. a year, and not alone that, but owing to the
offices being apart, and distant from each other, great
extravagance existed in consequence of the several staffs
in each office. (Hear.) Then the present system was
very inconvenient. The offices were situated in private
houses, never intended for business, so that much valu-
able space, in point of accommodation, was thrown away.
It would be much better to expend a sum of money in
the erection of suitable buildings—(hear)—and which
might be done for a less sum in capital that 20,0001.
a year by way of interest represented. The Board
of Trade was carried on at present in ten or eleven
different buildings. Something the same might
be said of the war department—independent of the
Horse Guards and the Ordnance Office ; whereas all
these departments shluld be under proper and effi-
cient control. (Hear, hear.) The question was not
one merely of pounds, shillings, and pence, but also
affected the interests of the public service. How-
ever, as the country was engaged in expensive ope-
rations at present, it might not be the most fitting time
to press a question of the kind ; but he had no doubt
the demand for funds for this purpose, if made at a
proper time, would meet with unanimous approval. '
After a few words from Lord REDESDALE, the motion
was agreed to.