The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-11 00:00:00

TIT V, r •
SVN LONDON, WEDNESDAY VA) ENING kV 11, 185
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gentry of these two countries leaving this country without
exciting the strongest feelings of resentment on the part
of the gentry and middle orders both of this country
and of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) And I cannot conceive
those who have conducted the education—those who have
attended the hospitals and institutions for the sick—all at
once going out as exiles from this country, without pro-
ducing in the minds of the lower classes who have received
the benefit of their ministration the strongest feeling that
they are suffering a grievance from the Parliament of this
country. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I believe that our interfer-
ence on this subject is likely to produce bad effects. I can
see no sufficient reason for saying that the general law of
this country is not ample for the protection of the personal
liberty of all the subjects of this country. I see no reason
to think so ill of our Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen
as to believe that they would behold without complaint
their near relations immured against their will, or confined
in contravention of the law, and to the destruction of their
health and comfort. (Hear, hear.) So feeling, sir, upon
this subject, having had .before in this house a bill upon
this subject, seeing no likelihood that the present bill
would be at all more satisfactory to me than the bill against
which I voted two years ago, I must refuse my assent
to the introduction of this bill. (Cheers from the Irish
members.)
Lord E. HOWARD doubted if any, except those who
were in the secret, could have imagined, from the terms of
the notice upon the paper, that a bill of this nature was to
have been introduced. He was led into this discussion,
however, in consequence of an allusion which had been
made by several hon. gentlemen. One said it was a case
of a near and dear relation of his. " Sir," said the noble
lord, "a far nearer and clearer relation of my own."
(Loud cheers.) Upon this subject ho should meet the first
the satement of the hon. member for Cheltenham. He had
had no time to ask, and be did not know that he should
have asked the lady in question if he had had time,
whether she had been prevented seeing the hon, gentleman
alone when she was a member of the convent ; but this he
could say, that she would have had no wish to see him
alone. (Hear, hear.) His hon. friends the members for
Cork and Dundalk had adverted very kindly to this. The
hon. member for North Warwickshire, however, had taken
upon himself to say that the person to whim he alluded
had been confined against her will, and he spoke first as if
he had her own authority for saying so,—
Mr. NEWDEGATE said, he had merely stated that he
relied upon the testimony of the hon. member for Chelten-
ham, and he then quoted the correspondence which had
appeared in the newspapers.
Lord E. HOWARD was not aware that any such state-
ment had been made in the newspapers. He could only
say, the lady had since told him that during the time she
was in the convent she had been completely happy. He
considered it disgraceful to bring forward his private affairs
before the house. With regard to the other cases which
had been motioned, hon. members should take care to in-
vestigate the truth of what was told them. The hon.
member for North Warwickshire began his speech by a
conversation very much resembling one of Lander's. With
regard to the iron bars, it was just possible that they might
be for the purpose of keeping people out as well as in.
(Laughter.) He must thank the noble lord the member
for the city of London, for the speech which he had made,
which was free from the bigotry of which the house had
that night heard so much. With respect to the confine-
ment of ladies in these establishments, he would ask the
hon. member if he had never seen the sisters of charity
walking about in the performance of their luties ? He con-
fessed that he felt warmly on the subject, but he thought
that the efforts to bring the question into false lights might
to some extent be his excuse. He had spoken without
preparation, and should regret it if he had uttered a word
that might be unnecessarily offensive ; at the same time,
he did not retract the sense of what he had said—it was
only the manner of it for which he could offer any apology.
Mr. DRUMMOND said that he disliked the former bill
which had been introduced upon this subject, and he had
great difficulties with respect to the present, because he
thought it would be utterly inefficacious. He did not be-
lieve it was within the power of the legislation of the
house to separate that which was good from that which
was bad in monastic institutions. He never went the length
that some gentlemen did in blaming them, for he had seen
the advantages of sisters of charity abroad, and knew how
much the recovery of the sick and wounded in foreign hos-
pitals was owing to them. The case was full of difficulty.
For instance, they had passed bills as strong as they could
against Jesuits and monasteries ; yet there they were, in-
creasing every hour, and laughing in their face. By what
means could they possibly insure the efficiency of this bill?
His objection to these institutions applied as much to Pro-
testants as to Roman Catholics ; for he laid down this ab-
stract doctrine, that it never could be right or lawful, under
any circumstances to lock up a number of women in a house
with bolts and bars, and give the key of it to any one man.
He didn't care whether he were a Protestant or a Papist,
or whether he were a layman or a priest, that was the thing
he objected to. It was said there were no bolts or bars in
this country, but that was simply because here they had
not their own way. Cases took place abroad daily, which
would occur in this country if the priesthood were predo-
minant. He could state things which had come under his
own eyes, but if he did, they would straightway be denied,
for the power of denial possessed by hon. gentlemen was
perfectly wonderful. (Hear.) He did not think it right
that there should be anywhere a number of the Queen's
subjects who could not appeal to her for protection through
the ordinary means of the police, constables, magistrates,
and judges of the country. (Hear.) That which he had seen
abroad might occur here. He had seen abroad parents
force their daughters into convents in order that other fa-
vourite daughters might have larger jointures ; and he
believed there were many such instances. He objected
very much to ladies who had taken vows being encouraged
to break them ; but he must tell the house some few things
that had happened, notwithstanding the vigilance of Pro-
testant eyes. This was a statement which had been made
to him by a priest who had left the Roman Catholic faith.
(Oh, oh !) He had been a curate officiating at —•
His niece was a boarder and pensioner at the school of a
nunnery at so and so, with boarders from the ages of 4 to
18. It then became his duty as her guardian to consult
her wishes relative to entering the nunnery. "Nunneries"
she replied, " are not such good places as you imagine. I
would not pass my life among them for anything you could
offer. As to the nuns, they are in a state of continual
strife among each other, and the crimes committed among
the ladies who are boarders are too shocking to mention."
(Oh, oh, and cries of " Name the nunnery.") These
convents were, in fact, one of the means by which the
Popish treasury was filled, and that was one great reason
why they were patronised. It was not a bit that ladies
might pass their time their in private devotion—not a bit
of it. There was no grist behind that mill. Here was
another case :

" Some time after the death of our young friend in Mar-
tinique, we received a letter from our old and esteemed cor-
respondent there, informing us that he had received a letter
from the lady in the convent, expressing her gratitude to
him for all that he had done for her and various members of
his deceased partner's family, and further stating that there
was a sum of 3001. due by that gentleman, her departed rela-
tive, to a family in Cork, who had suffered a great reverse of cir-
cumstances; adding, that she was sure if he had lived it would
not have been allowed to remain unpaid; that if she had not dis-
posed herself of all her property, she would gladly discharge the
debt, and entreating him, as an act of the greatest charity, to
pay the amount. Our friend reminded us of the many
sums ho had previously paid, and of the fact of his having
no assets of his late partner's applicable to the purpose ; but
he added, that such was his respect for the family and for
the lady in the convent, that provided we felt satisfied, after
an interview with her, that the facts were as she supposed,
he would authorise our paying the money. On receipt of
this letter my brother weal to the convent and saw the lady.
He stated that our friend had requested us to make inquiries
touching the family she had named to him. She expressed
her great surprise, and declared she knew nothing whatever
of any such family. My brother then told her all the cir-
cumstances mentioned in our friends letter, when she seemed
confused, but still declared she knew nothing of the family
nor of the circumstances. My brother, on his return to our
counting-house, told all this with very great surprise to us,
and we wrote off at once to our friend, supposing that for-
gery and fraud had been practised upon him. In a few days
after, or it may be the next day, we received a note from the
convent in the same handwriting as usual, requesting that Mr.
C— would call upon the writer, which my brother did,
and found the lady alone, waiting to receive him, in a state Majority in favour of the motion... 23
of considerable agitation. The first question was, Mr. C , TRANSFER OF LAND IN IRELAND.
did you write to Martinique ?' My brother replied, I did.'
The lady then said in almost an agsny, which astonished my Mr. V. SCULLY obtained leave to bring in a bill to
facilitate the transfer of land in Ireland.
brother, ' What shall Ido ? Pray write off at once and say
that the facts are all true, and that it was a silly mistake on BALLOT.
my part.' My brother replied, How can this be, Miss ? Is Mr. C. BERKELEY, in consequence of the lateness of
the hour (half past ten), postponedidoot his motion with refe-
it true that you wrote the letter you told me you did not
CHICORY AND
write ;oris it possible that you knew the family of whom you rence to the ballot. We collectcoFF COFFEE.
almost hat day.
told me you knew nothing?' This seemed to throw her into
almost a state of frenzy, and she replied, I suppose I must Mr. GREGSON moved for a return, up to the present
tell you all ; the fact is, I have never put pen to paper since
time, of the number of seizures or prosecutions made or
I entered this convent ; one of our sisters manages all corres-
pondence, who is appointed for that purpose. She knows authorised by the Commissioners of Excise for the adults.
all the facts, and that is quite the same as my knowing ration of tea, tobacco, pepper, and coffee ; distinguishing
them ; so do pray write and tell our friend that it is all the seizures or prosecutions for adulteration of coffee under
true.' It was in vain that my brother told her that the Treasury order of the 3d day of August, 1852 ; and any
such an explanation would never satisfy our friends. seizures or prosecutions under the Treasury order of the
She only repeated, It is all true, and pray write to tell 25th day of February, 1853, for sales of mixtures of chicory
him so.' My brother left her in this state, and on his and coffee without the required labels (in continuation of
return repeated the conversation in utter astonishment to us, Parliamentary paper No. 647', of session 1851).
and we wrote the whole as it occurred to our friend, who, in Mr. WILSON, in expressing his readiness to give the
reply, thanked us for the course we had taken to protect him returns, said that it seemed in some quarters to be sup-
from the fraud intended, and stated, that as he was then be- posed that the Government had had no intention of put-
coming an old man, it had been his intention to give up all ting the order into effect, whereas, in the two months since
his business affairs, and to return to his native country to end the order was issued there had been 1,684 inspections by
his days there, but that he was so shocked at what he had the officers of various stocks, attended by 94 convictions
had
dd
now been
hithertooen confinedgien th
atth
for
rfi
futurenes t to
thus discovered, that he resolved to return to Europe and end and fines, by 135 punishments of a minor description. The
dn
notice cdn
his days without returning to Ireland, which he accordingly Excise, he would
did, and we corresponded with him in Paris until his death." 51' and 61.,
Now, this was the sort of instruction given in these insti- ifeeonces the
teexdt.rimet eniroltyt:hwe
orderwould be inflicted. It had
tutions, and these were not the things that were looked into . the consumption of
coffee Sl.lgdgectiecreased, whereas, in point of fact, it had
as they ought to be. He thought the country was not pre- largely
l increased, the amount of coffee which paid duty in
pared for the only course that was proper and necessary, the two months since the order was issued having been
and that was for the suppression of monastic institutions
altogether. (Hear, hear.) Those who maintained this 6 221 0001bs'' whereas the quantity in the two correspond
alto'-
ing Months of last year was only 5,540,000 lbs. and in the
system were determined, if they could, to establish the two months of the preceding year 3,850,0001b5. (Hear.)
canon law, with all its consequences ; and there was just as
strong a determination The motion was then agreed to.
that they should not do so. (Hear,
BOROUGH OF BARNSTAPLE.
hear.) With regard to this bill, he confessed that he dioi
not think it would effect the object with which it was Mr. 0. STANLEY moved an address to her Majesty,
brought forward. praying that her Majesty would be graciously pleased to
Mr. LUCAS wished to express his acknowledgments to issue a commission to inquire into corrupt practices
the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) for the extremely generous names—Michael P render-
and able speech which he had made, and which must have which took place at the late election for the borough of
Barnstaple :—Commissioners
J Eardle Eardl
gast, Esq., Q.C., Si
perfectly settled the question in the mind of every impartial T 1 E —A reed eY
and rational member of the house. The case had Bart., and Leofripcu_nemnpAem, gto.
ELECTION.KI
com-
pletely fallen through. The house had been asked to legis-
late, but no ground had been laid for legislation. The hon. Mr. BENTINCK moved the appointment of a select
and learned gentleman who had brought forward the mo- committee to inquire into the circumstances under which
tion had admitted that ho was destitute of proof ; and the petitions against the return of William Atherton, Esq.,
therefore he wished commissioners to be appointed to visit and Thomas Colpitts Granger, Esq., foi the city of Dur-
convents, and obtain evidence. Tho hon. member for Sus- ham, have been withdrawn, and that the petition of cer-
sex, it was true, had mentioned the case of a lady who had tarn electors of the city of Durham, presented to this
been placed in a convent-school by her father, and who ran house on the 20th day of April, be referred to the said
away. Well, such circumstances sometimes happened committee. At the last general election, in July 1852,
when young ladies were placed at school by their fathers— Mr. Granger and Mr. Atherton were returned for the
(a laugh)—and he was not aware that they required any borough of Durham, Lord A. Vane being the unsuccessful
special legislation. (Hear, hear.) Other cases had been candidate. Upon the sth of August following Mr.
mentioned. One was the case of a boy ; another that of a Granger died. On the 23d of November, two electors, in
young lady living in the world ; and a third case referred the interest of Lord A. Vane, presented a petition com.
to by the Bishop of Norwich, which, he thought, had no plaining of the return of Mr. Atherton, and praying a void
relation whatever to this bill. As to the extraordina election against him. At a Into hour, upon the 25th of
statements read by the hon. member for Surrey (Mr. Novemberg which was the last day for presenting Parlia-
Drummond), every one must feel that they required no menta petitions, ono was presented from two electcrs of
notice. He (Mr. Lucas's) feelings on this subject was D11111313:11, resident in London, named Lumley and Green-
exactly what it would be if he were a Protestant. If they well, who had voted for Granger and Atherton, against
made out a case—if they showed him that abuses existed, the return of Mr. Granger, then dead. Upon the 26th,
that tyranny was practised, that breaches of the law were Mr. Coppock, the agent for the petitioners, gave notice
committed, Catholic as he was, he would join them in ap- that it was not intended to proceed. From these circum-
plying any national remedy they chose to adopt ; but if stances it was clear that the petition was not of a bond fide
there was no better groundwork for exceptional and insult- nature, but was intended to attain some tortuous object,
ing legislation than the cock-and-bull stories they had which was, in fact, the withdrawal of the petition against
heard, he must declare himself entirely opposed to such Mr. Atherton. He looked upon the withdrawal of the pe-
measures as that of the hon. and learned member for tition of the 25th of December as an unjustifiable abuse of
Hertford. For 12 or 14 years past he had watched the the right o petitioning, and, as such, a breach of the pr!-
course which had been pursued with regard to these vileges of that house. He begged, therefore, to submit
Catholic institutions. Not a year had passed without the motion which he had read.
some case of alleged cruelty, mismanagement, or hardship Mr. M. CHAMBERS opposed the motion. Nothing had
being dragged before the world ; but the moment it was been done between the 26th of November and the 2d of
investigated it was found there was nothing in it, that it December, when the new election at which Lord A. V,l,nae
was a tissue of falsehood, and that the parties to the liar- was returned, took place ; and now that it was found t h t
rative were degraded and discreditable impostors. (Hear, the petition against that noble lord was to be proceeded

hear.) A crop of these facts came up every year. (A laugh.) ; with, and on the very eve of the appointment of the select
Persons of degraded and debased imaginations lived upon committee to inquire into the merits of that petition, this
the filthy and abominable suspicions which formed the motion was made for the very purpose of inducing a com-
stock in trade of a certain class of so-called religious agita- promise between the parties, and the withdrawal of tho
tors, who made up a kind of spurious public opinion, petition against the noble lord.' If the house assented to
which endeavoured to thrust itself upon that house. Ho this course. they would be lending themselves to the corn-
had great respect for anything in the shape of English pub- mission of a great breach of their own privileges.
lie opinion; but for that monstrous, and unnatural, and Mr. MILES said that the conduct of the agents on both
debased opinion which was represented out of doors by sides required to be looked into. Petitions had been pre-
the motions made on these subjects in the house, he had sented without the slightest grounds by agents, and then
no respect whatever, but he regarded it with the greatest withdrawn and paired in a
sameful manner. This was
contempt. (Hear, hear) The hon. member for War- mere playing and trifling with the house. The whole
wickshire had expressed his wish to protect the Roman system was wrong and wanted revision.
Catholics from Lynch-law, but he (Mr. Lucas) would meet Sir J. TROLLOPE had seen with pain the privilege of
any proposal to protect them against Lynch-law by legisla- petitioning abused in the present session in a grosser man-
tion of this kind with the regard which its obvious serious- ner than he ever remembered before. The committee over
ness demanded. (A laugh.) He was sure that candid, which he had presided had been made a complete stalking
rational, calm judging members on both sides would unite horse for every kind of abuse. (Hear, hear.) Petitions
in putting an extinguisher upon an attempt at legislation had been withdrawn or paired off, and the labours of the
which, if it were successful, would do no credit to the cha- committee of selection had been set completely at naught.
ratter of that assembly. It would only be becoming the dignity of the house to take
Mr. WHITESIDE objected to this bill, because it some notice of these transactions ; but lie questioned
treated a very large subject in a very narrow way. Two whether the present was a very fitting opportunity, inas.
questions must be considered with reference to what took much as a petition in it was now pending. Ho thought, >
place in conventual establishments,—one was a question however, that the house should take the first opportunity
of property, and the other was a question of personal of marking its displeasure at these practices. (Hear.)
liberty. He admitted with the hon. member for Meath Mr. HEADLAM said, if they appointed a select coin-
(Mr. Lucas) that no strong case of abuse within the walls mittee to inquire into the withdrawal of this petition, they
of conventual establishments had been made out ; but it must do so in every case in which a petition had been
'night be in the recollection of lion. gentlemen that some withdrawn.
time ago the predecessor of the hon. and learned member Mr. MALINS had no doubt that Parliamentary agents
for Cork in the representation of that city brought before were a very necessary body of men. Mr. Brown and Mr.
the Court of Chancery in Ireland the whole history of the Coppock were equally indifferent to him ; but this be said,
interior of a convent in Cork. In that case a deed was that these persons should be taught that the House of
obtained from Miss Xacarthy against her will and for the Commons was to be treated with respect and in good faith.
advantage of the convent, although she wished to bestow The present was by no means a frivolous case, and he con-
a portion of her property upon her brother and sister; and tended that it was time the house took the matter into its
he (Mr. Whiteside) must say he conceived that a greater own hands and taught these Parliamentary agents that it
act of tyranny than was exposed in that case could not be was not to be insulted with impunity.
practised upon a young and innocent woman. Four or five Sir C. WOOD quite agreed that the system of petition-
cases were reported in the records of the Irish courts in ing and counter petitioning with the view of pairing off
which influence of this kind had been brought to bear upon was a gross abuse of the privilege, equally participated in
persons possessed of property. He admitted, however, that by both sides of the house. The whole practice was ex-
the prosont bill did not affect this very important point. tremely disgraceful; and he must say that the proceedings
He (Mr. Whiteside) must say that when he heard the in the present case came very much within that category.
noble lord (Lord J. Russell) refer to the law of other But it appeared to him that if there were any complaint
European countries on this subject, he had felt some snr- it ought to be not against the withdrawal, but against the
prise. He (Mr. Whiteside) would not quote the law of presentation of the petition. (Hear, hear.) What he
Russia, and he would not act upon the laws of Austria, thoaght, however, was a little suspicions was the " time"
of Spain, or of Portugal, because he believed that in at which the present motion was brought forward. He
those countries bigotry and tyranny prevailed ; but he recommended, instead of appointing a committee in this
might state with regard to Italy, that Leopold of Tuscany special case, that a committee should inquire into the
—who, before the name of Romilly was known, or the whole system generally, of the practice of withdrawing
Code Napoleon was adopted, enacted the most merciful petitions for the sole purpose of jobbery. (Hear, hear.)
code of criminal law that existed in Europe—had ordained Mr. WALPOLE concurred in the propriety of appoint-
that no girls within his dominions should be placed in pub- ing a committee to inquire into the circumstances of the
lie schools until they were ten years of age ; that they withdrawal of election petitions generally, and regretted
should not be clothed in the dress of a convent until they that the hon. member for East Surrey had withdrawn his
were 20 ; and that they should not be professed until they notice of motion on the subject. If the whole matter were
had been liberated from convents for six months, and even to be fully inquired into he should recommend his hon.
then not until after a strict examination with the view of friend behind him not to press his motion. (Hear.)
ascertaining their real intentions. Leopold further pro- Mr. L. KING said, he had not withdrawn his motion,
vided that a female was not thenceforward to be allowed but, on the contrary, was anxious to bring it forward as
to take the veil until she had reached 30 years of age. soon as possible.
Now, that was a fair age in Italy for a lady to take the Sir J. TROLLOPE stated, for the information of the
veil. (Laughter.) Provision was further made by Leopold house, that the whole of the election petitions would be
for subjecting the conventual establishments of Tuscany to appointed by the end of this month. At present there were
inspection. He (Mr. Whiteside) admitted that there was only eightlremaining to be disposed of, but others might be
a difference between appointing Roman Catholic inspectors presented in the interim, as there were a great many seats
to make investigations with regard to institutions of that now vacant.
kind and appointing Protestant inspectors to perform the Sir J. V. SHELLEY doubted the purity of motive of
duty. He did not think the bill now before the house hon. gentlemen opposite. He disapproved of the present
would be effectual ; but, although he would be averse to tribunals to which these matters were referred, and sug-
the enactment of any law which might be offensive to the gested that there should be a different mode of taking votes
feelings of Roman Catholics, he was satisfied that the en- at elections.
tire subject of the relations of these conventual establish- Mr. WHITMORE Instanced himself as having been pe-
merits to the State must, with due respect to the feelings titioned against without there being the shadow of a case.
and rights of the Roman Catholic gentry of Ireland and In fact, he had been a Coppock "butt," but not a Coppock
England, be seriously and comprehensively regarded by the victim.
Legislature of this country. Mr. W. 0. STANLEY deprecated the whole system as
Lord J. RUSSELL said the hon. and learned gentleman a mockery and delusion, and expressed a strong doubt whe-
was mistaken in supposing that he had referred to the laws ther the house was sincere in its intentions to put a check
of other European countries with regard to conventual upon the gross practices which notoriously prevailed.
establishments.
After some further discussion, in which Mr. E. C. EGER-
Mr. FAGAN alluded to the Macarthy case, with which TON, Mr. W. M. SMITH, Mr. S. HERBERT, Mr. T. DUN-
he had been intimately acquainted, and denied that there COMBE, and Colonel FORESTER took part,
Macarthy to compel them to take measures to obtain t
thLisomrdigPhAt LbeMaEfißtSsTu°bjNectsafiodr hinecidiudiryn,oatnmdeiatnnitioghdetn
hye tthhaatt
had been any coercion used towards the daughters of
hMerir.
great pain to the ladies in question, who intended to have led to the presentation of the petition than to its with-
share of their father's property. The transaction had given the inquiry ought to be directed rather to the causes which
employed the money
which they thought they had a right drawal. He thought, however, that as an hon. gentleman
May to in charitable and religious purposes. He regretted that (Mr. L. King) had given notice of a motion for the 31st of
for a general inquiry into cases of this kind, the better
the hon. member of Hertford should have commenced his
ing to communities of ladies who were respected by including the inquiry into t particular case in the pro-
career in that house by bringing forward a motion insult- course would be to adjourn thhe debate
lfor the purpose of
whoknew
them ; but he was gratified to find that the posed general inquiry. He moved that the debate be ad-
noble lord had shown so determined a spirit of opposition journed to Tuesday, the 31st inst.
to the bill which he considered an encroachment on civil The house then divided, when there were—
liberty. The only argument which had been brought for- For the adjournment lO7
ward by the hon. member in support of the bill was drawn Against it
from the prejudices of the people, who demanded the in-
spection of what were really private houses. He should
give the bill his most decided opposition.
Lord C. HAMILTON regretted that the noble lord at
the head of the Government did not feel it his duty to al-
low the bill to pass even its earliest stage, because it dealt
with a subject which had taken a deep hold on the public
mind, and had created an impression which would not be
removed until it had been shown to be unfounded. It was
said that monastic institutions were without the pale of
the law ; that statement might be a libel, but it was no an-
swer to the public to tell them so. The noble lord had
told the house that it would be better to imitate the pa-
triotism and self-denial of their Roman Catholic fellow-
countrymen ; but the noble lord would excuse him if he
declined to put faith in their aspirations for civil and reli-
gious liberty, more especially when they were under the
guidance of a master spirit like that of the hon. member
for Meath (Mr. Lucas). With regard to the proposed bill,
he would remind the house that its mover did not ask that
Protestant inspectors should be appointed for the purpose
of visiting the convents, but proposed to leave the appoint-
ments to the judgment and responsibility of the Home
Secretary. He hoped the house would give the hon. mem-
ber the opportunity to explain the details of the measure.
(" Divide, divide.")
Sir R. INGLIS complimented the hon. member for Hert-
ford on the tact, ability, and judgment displayed in his
speech, and expressed his opinion that as powers were given
by the law in Catholic countries to the civil authorities to
visit institutions analogous to those in England, there was
no measure which the house ought to find less difficulty in
supporting. It was a question of the civil liberty of the
subject of the realm, and ought not to be dealt with as a
religious question. The hon. and learned member for En-
niskillen had argued that the bill ought not to be adopted
because it would not meet all emergencies. He should have
preferred a bolder and more comprehensive measure ; but
when a measure which was before them was good, they
ought not to say " No" to it because it did not go far
enough, and he was prepared to accept it as a means of
getting more hereafter. He hoped the house would agree
to the measure of the hon. gentleman.
Mr. T. CHAMBERS replied, and complained of the
manner in which the purport and contents of his speech
had been evaded. The noble lord had omitted to speak on
the main question at all, and had confined his remarks
chiefly to compliments on the devout nuns, who spent the
greater part of their time in prayer and contemplation,
and on the active nuns who spent their time in walking
about the streets. (Laughter.) He was very anxious that
the Government should see his bill, but the noble lord had
refused to give him the opportunity of explaining its de-
tails, and he trusted the house would therefore assist him
is bringing it forward. (Hear.)
Sir J. T YRELL, who spoke amid general impatience
for a division, commented on the inflated panegyric pro-
nounced by the noble lord at the head of the Government
on the Roman Catholic ministers in general, and intimated
his opinion that it was perhaps intended as a set-off to the
conduct of the Government on the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Perhaps, too, in the present
critical state of the house, the noble lord desired to take
steps for working well with those hon. members on that
side of the house who had been dealt hardly with by the
budget, and thus to make things square. (Laughter.)
The house divided. The numbers were
For the motion .
Against it

Majority

33

- -
The debate was accordingly adjourned to the 31st of May.
On the motion of Mr. L. KING, a return was ordered of
the election petitions presented during the present session,
showing the names of the places, names of members peti-
tioned against, and in what manner such petitions may
have been disposed of ; returns of all reports, special re-
ports, and determinations or resolutions of any election
committees reported to the house ; of the names of all mem-
bers who have been unseated, and for what causes they
have been so unseated ; of the names of all places the writs
for which have been suspended, and to what dates they
have been so suspended ; and of the total number of select
committees which have sat on election petitions up to
Whitsuntide.

On the motion of Mr. CORRY, an address was agreed to
for a return of the number of persons employed in her
Majesty's dockyards and gun wharves, and other civil esta-
blishments of the Admiralty and Ordnance, who are en-
titled to vote at the elections of members to serve in
Parliament for each of the followinc,. boroughs :—Green-
wich, Chatham, Rochester, Harwich, Sandwich, Ports-
mouth, Plymouth, Devonport, and Pembroke.
Lord HOTHAM obtained leave to bring in a bill to en-
able the justices of counties to contract in certain cases for
the maintenance and confinement of convicted prisoners in
the gaols of adjoining counties.
The Whichwood Forest Bill went through committee.