The Sun.
London, England, 1853-06-01 00:00:00

tended that Catholicism was disappearing, and the
people of England were called upon for renewed contri-
butions. The question was certainly one for investiga-
tion, and this investigation the Catholics of Ireland
courted and craved. If the property of the Church
were well managed, it would produce a million per
annum. It was not honestly managed at present, and
and the system of bishops' leases was most injurious.
This great revenue was distributed among a close cord-
poration of younger brothers, many of whom passe
their time in the apostolic pastime of snipe-shooting.
(A laugh.) He paid tithes himself, in eight parishes,
and in none of them was he aware of any Protestant
clergyman resident, except in three out of the. t
eighth
se
parishes, and there only a few Protestants even meraohle
parishes. In a parish he knew there was a r
the Re-
abbey which had been wrecked at the time o
Re-
formation. Within the walls of that ruined church the
whole population of the parish (for there was not a Pro-
testant in it) knelt to worship, and under a single arch,
which shadowed rather than sheltered the altar, the
priest offered up the sacrifice of the Eucharist exposed
to the winds and rains of heaven ? The tithes of this
parish were paid to the vicars choral of Christ Church,
Dublin ? Could their prayers and praises ascend to
heaven t Was it possible to be loyal to such a law ?
The religious policy of England in that country had
been most evil in principle and vicious in practice. He
was in favour of Church endowments, because he con-
sidered it essential that the poor should have the Gospel
preached to them, which could not be the case on
the voluntary principle. In Ireland, however, the
religion of the rich was endowed, while the religion
of the poor was left in poverty. (Hear, hear.) It
was alleged that the religion of the Irish people was un-
scriptural and idolatrous. If it were intended to treat
the Irish as a conquered race, no doubt this course
might be reasonable ; but not if it were desired to deal
fairly and justly with them. It was a begging of the
whole question, so intolerant and stupid, that decency
and policy should forbid it. It was obviously requisite
to consult the opinions of the majority of the people as
to the question of religion. It was said, indeed, that the
Protestant was the religion of the majority of the em-
pire, but then the expense of the Irish Church ought to
be paid out of the Imperial revenues. The argument,
however, was clearly fallacious; for in Scotland the Epis-
copal Church was not established, although Scotland as
well as Ireland was an integral portion of the empire.
Then it was said that the Act of Union secured the sta-
tus of the Established Church. No doubt it was an ar-
ticle in the Union; but if both parties to a contract agreed
to rescind it, of course it could be done. Again, it was
said that every alliance between Church and State in-
volved reciprocal advantages, and recognised the influ-
ence of the State in the Church. That might be an ar-
gument for endowing the Protestant Church, but not for
raising it on the ruins of the Catholic. The maintenance
of peace under the present system was impossible, except
by means of overwhelming force of arms ; whereas peace
might be expected to result from the removal of this griev •
ance, just as peace had been established in England by
the expulsion of James, and in Scotland by the abolition
of prelacy. The act that made Scotland happy and con-
tented was the act of abolishing Episcopacy, which as-
serted that the religion of the nation should be in accor-
:ince with their inclinations. Look again to Belgium :
the differences that existed arose from religion, and had
been terminated by the establishment of religious liberty
Since then the people of Belgium had lived in peace and
prospesity, as those of Ireland might, and one day
would, under a Protestant Sovereign. (Hear, hear.)
Ever since the Reformation division and strife‘ had
raged in Ireland, and all this would be put an end
to only by the abolition of the Established Church.
While an endowment of from half a minion to a million
a year had failed to increase or develop Protestantism,
the supporters of the Establishment now contended that
the contribution of a few thousands voluntarily had suc-
ceeded in evangelising Ireland. One of the members for
Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) had argued that the
Irish became Protestants When they went to America.
That was really to contend that they became Protestants
when they got out of reach of the Established Church of
Ireland. (Oh, oh, and a laugh.) It should be re-
membered that there was no Established Church in
America, however. In conclusion, he (Mr. Moore) was
anxious to give the Protestants fair play and a fair field.
Let Protestantism breathe free air, and remove from its
neck the golden collar. Let it step forth in its true pro-
portions to meet its great adversary, and might God de-
fend the right. (Hear, hear, from those sitting near the
hon. member.)
Mr. M. O'CONNELL confessed that he seconded the
motion with great pain, because he felt exceedingly grieved
that such a subject had been mooted at all. (Oh, and
laughter.) The less this vexata questio was touched the
better would it be for England and Ireland. The move-
ment was; a rash and imprudent one, and one which did
not accord with the feelings of the English people. (Hear,
hear.) What the opponents of the Establishment should
do wars to ,get on inch by inch. (Hear, hear, from Mr.
Moore.) Although he seconded the motion, he thought
the present demonstration a rash one. (Oh and laughter.)
Sir J. YOUNG said that in one part of his speech the
hon. member for Mayo had stated that he desired a select
committee for the purpose of inquiry and investigation ;
but from what had fallen from him in another portion
of his observations it was clear that he did not think
inquiry or investigation necessary. If the house went
into committee it would be with the warning that it was
to abolish the functions of the Irish Church in Ireland ;
and the hon. member added, that nothing short of religious
equality would satisfy the people of Ireland.
Mr. MOORE—I said that the noble lord the member for
London said so.

Sir J. YOUNG—The hon. member quoted the noble
lord, but he also adopted his sentiment. He (Sir J. Young)
presumed that by religious equality the hon. member
meant the total destruction of the Established Church in
Ireland. (Hear, hear.) With regard to Ireland, various
causes, at various times, had been assigned for its distracted
and unfortunate position. The right hon. gentleman the
member for Buckinghamshire had attributed the evils of
that country to a starving population and an absentee aris-
tocracy. In 1816 or 1817 they were ascribed to the spirit
duties ; at another period to the want of a good system of
registration. If those evils, however, were to be traced to
a starving population :.,nd an absentee aristocracy, the best
Church in the world would fail to correct them. He (Sir
J. Young) was disposed to attribute the evils of Ireland to
bad commercial lec'islition and the general treatment of
the people. With respect to the property of the Irish
Church, it had been in its possession for 300 years, and if
the hon. member proposed to apply these revenues to other
uses he would violate a principle. Had the honourable
member, instead of advocating the abolition of the Esta-
blished Church in Ireland, adopted the more modified
views which had recently appeared in the newspapers,
he (Sir J. Young) should have been prepared to
show that there was room perhaps for a better dis-
tribution of Church property in Ireland, but that still
that property was not more than sufficient for the pur-
poses to which it was applied. It was the will of the
English people that tlnere should be a Protestant establish-
ment in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) If any fault could be
found with the parochial system in Ireland, it would be
that the parishes will too large. If the present parochial
clergy were to exist, the revenue of the Irish Church did
not afford more than an adequate maintenance for them.
Although the Protestant population might be small in
numbers, it was scatti zed all over the country. Allowing
for the curates 45,0001., there remained for each incum-
bent 2101. a year. Now, comparing this stipend with the
emoluments of the ordinary run of clerks in public offices
or commercial establit Iments, he was prepared to contend
that for the first ten years the incumbent would suffer a
loss of 100/. ; and, comparing it with those emoluments
for the next ten yearn—computing, in the mean time, the
" rise" which took place in such clerks' salaries—a loss of
1,0001. (Hear,. hear, :from Mr. Moore.) If there were any
great agitation in this country on the subject—which was
not the case—he coul d fancy that it might be for the ad-
vantage of the Churc h to make a sacrifice for the sake of
peace—to give up a p ortion of its revenue in order to afford
security to the rest oir the property. There was no agita-
tion, however, in the public mind, and the English people
desired just the reverse of the sacrifice of the property of
the Irish establishntei it for Roman Catholic or secular pur-
poses. There was a jealousy of Roman Catholics in this coun-
try, and he thought tlds motion calculated toincrease it. At
the time of Roman 0 atholic emancipation an assurance was
given that the conceal don should in no way interfere with
the Church establishment. In 1817 Sir Robert Peel
delivered one of his !speeches against emancipation, but in
1821, Mr. Plunket, i the course of an address in favour of
the measure, and as the organ of the Roman Catholics,
said that if he thought emancipation would in any way
militate against the 1 'rotestant Establishment, much as he
cherished the Roman Catholic claims, he would abandon
them ; and in the co-a xse of the same speech Mr. Plunket
said, " I vindicate flu 3 Roman Catholics from any imputa-
tion of the kind, for t hey have no hostility to the Church
Establishment." Sir John Young went on to say that the
Established Church w -as the Church of Ireland before the
Union, although the 4 lurch of the minority. The members
of the Irish Parliamei it were exclusively of the minority,
and it was clear that at the time of the Union they meant
to defend the tempos dities of the Establishment, and to
see that no part of th at property should be dealt with, ex-
cept for the benefit of the Church. If, however, it were for
the benefit of the Cl iurch that its property should be dif-
ferently allocated, th a omnipotence of Parliament could
deal with the subject . The Church of Ireland had been
greatly reformed with in the last 20 years ; but, according
to the hon. member I or Mayo, the improvements and re-
trenchments had prod uced no good effect whatever. The
hon. member contend: ed that the presence of the Church of
Ireland was as obrlox ions to the Irish people as it was
before. With that announcement before them, he (Sir
J. Young) asked, wiz, at encouragement had they to go into
the proposed commill .tee? (Hear.) They might give up
another 100,000/., but , according to the hon. member for
teyo, it was its exis fence and its efficiency which made
Irish Church dish esteful to the Irish people. If, as
the hon, member for Mayo had also admitted, the Irish
Establishmentof Ireland,
was 11 of a tax on the Roman Catholics
But ought not was a grievance connected with their faith.
What ?t the fee linos of Protestants to be consulted ?
was pr'uorot be the few dings of Irish Protestants, when it
hear.) {',4ttat entarealy to abolish their Church. (Hear,
PR the hon, member for Mayo would state
oposed to
what he yr
the eve
nt of his a do with the churches in Ireland, in
Two-thirds of thef'inen", ieding YL his motion. (Hear, hoar-) t .srequiredfor building th churches
had been subscribed Protestants, and nearlythe
pairs had been kept Ai NYould theyh
on the re-
ber's proposal excite
Protestants ? (Hear, hear!
ir J. Young) confessed
par°tnOfseseumch-
he regarded the motie n nuf
real object was not in prowennetntate and Its
the Irish Church, win ch Was hone cuor::he total abolition of
on the voluntary principle. That ehntrochbo carried out
formed • its minister :s were as pure
ehand
uh,,,,ald been re-
sphere of action as r3l y that could be named, anuailtheir
jections on the score. of pluralities and non-residencye"-
-existed.lf 1•I to house, then, determined to n°
longer go. into
ad, he believed they
Nee thus war would give a
committee
die faith of this country. They would
great shock
to the pi 11
quiet and co 'oer-minded persons to believe that
induce
there was no reliant o to be placed on a solemn compact,
nor faith reposed in
parties ; and, finally, they
1 drs or
—e a e
would loosen those 1 h.c
h were associated with pro-
.es
perty and prescriptio H
(I. ea.)
the motion. So long as
Mr. MURROUGI I r
supported
Ireland had the " co r roding blister" of the Irish Church
f e
and be discontented.
upon her, so long avol ald she chafe and Church of
As one holding corns n union with the
had been had re-
Ireland, he believed I that if proper MODS