The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-06 00:00:00

posed to know something about the manufacture •of
rockets and shells, were out of charity recommended by M.
Kossuth to Mr. Hale, who consented to give them work
at eighteen shillings a week. A great deal has been made
of the statement of these men, that they were desired
not to talk in public houses of what was going on in the
factory at Rotherhithe. Now really, sir, I see nothing in
this which is not capable of satisfactory explanation. The
men might be told not to talk in. public-houses, because
the work carried on might be misrepresented, as it un-
questionably has been, for I maintain that the Govern-
ment has been grossly deceived and misinformed. (Hear,
hear.) Well, sir, having heard the evidence of these poli-
tical refugees, Mr. Henry resolved not to decide the case
summarily ; in fact he was again bewildered, and being
unable to extricate himself from the difficulty.by consult-
ing the " Encyclopmdia Britannica," he wisely deter-
mined to send the case over to the Surrey magistrates,
who, sitting close to Vauxhall, he thought would be good
judges of the matter. (A laugh.) So stands the case at
the present moment. Now then, sir, I would ask, is this a
worthy or a dignified course for any Government of this
country to pursue? (Hear, hear.) If M. Kossuth and
Mr. Hale have been guilty of any conspiracy to levy war
against any of those countries with which we are now upon
terms of amity, I say indict them boldly and openly for
that conspiracy ; but if they have not been guilty of such
an offence, do not rake up an old act of Parliament that
has slept for the last 120 years even with regard to the
making of fireworks. (Hear, hear.) But what are all
these proceedings for ? Nothing, lam sure, can be more
unpalatable to the great body ofthe people of this country,
who look upon the whole transaction as far as it has gone
with unmitigated disgust. (Cheers.) I believe it is bring-
ing the Government, to whom we all wish well, and to
whom we aro disposed to give a fair trial, into such disre-
pute with the mass of the people as few Governments have
experienced. I ask, sir, who is this transaction to please ?
The popular impression is that it is to please some foreign
Government—to please the Austrian Government and,
indeed, I think we have sufficient evidence of the fact in
some of the foreign journals. (Hear.) This is a point to
which I beg to call the attention of the noble lord the Sec-
retary of State for the Home Department. Very recently
a paragraph appeared in a Frankfort paper, headed, "The
English Police the Spies of Foreign Despots." It ran as
follows :—" It is now confirmed that the Prussian police
were most efficiently assisted in the late political arrests at
Berlin and elsewhere by repeated communications from the
police at London, without which many of their disclosures
might not have been made ; and we see a proof of the good
faith of the British Government when, through Lord
Westmoreland, it assures the Cabinet of Vienna that it
will watch over the conduct of the refugees ' • and we learn
from other sources that the London police have for some
time kept a list of all the fugitives residing there; and
watch over their communications with the conti-
nent." What, sir, must Europe think of England unless
she gives forth some contradiction of such injurious
statements? (Hear, hear.) It is quite right that the
police of London, or any other police, should communicate
with foreign Governments, in the event of persons seeking
refuge here being guilty of felony, or murder, or something
of that sort ; but the Government has no right, or the
police have no right, to communicate with foreign Govern-
ments upon political subjects—upon any political crime
that is committed here, or may have been committed
abroad; and, indeed, our police have no right to commu-
nicate with the police of foreign Governments at all. They
were not instituted for that purpose. (Hear, hear.) But
now I am to show that Austria had really something to do
with these seizures at Rotherhithe. In the Augsburg
Gazette of the 14th April—remember Mr. Hale's property
was seized on the 13th—there appeared an article, dated
Munich, April 12, and expressed in the following terms : - -
" At London revolution is allowed to take counsel and fill
her arsenals with destructive weapons, rockets, Erc." Now,
I think it is natural to infer from this that some commu-
nication had passed between certain parties in authority
here and the informants of the Augsburg Gazette. (Hear,
hear.) So, sir, the Times was not, after all, far wrong
when it said that the Government of this country had been
urged by Austria to look after the refugees, and that it
was determined to show its willingness to do so. (Hear,
hear.) Now, sir, I think her Majesty's Ministers, when
they are applied to by Austria or any other foreign power
on the subject of political fugitives, ought to tell the Go-
vernment appealing to them to look at the free institutions
of this country—ought to remind them of the confiscations
of Lombardy, and the cruelties and tortures that recently
disgraced Milan and Mantua—ought to let them know that
such is not the way to gain the affections of their subjects
—and ought to return for answer to their request, that in-
terference with refugees in this country will never be sub-
mitted to by the people of England. (Cheers.) No, sir,
we want none of their Radetskys here. (Hear, hear.) I,
therefore, beg to ask whether her Majesty's Ministers
think it worth while to pursue this prosecution any further
against Mr. Hale ? Mr. Hale admits that in making
rockets and shells he has violated an old act of Parliament.
He has already paid a penalty of 5/. 145., of which only
one-half goes to the Crown, the other being paid over to
the informer ; and I want to know if it is the intention of
' the Government to carry the prosecution further, either
against Mr. Hale or against any other person whatever ?
(Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, my hon. friend has treated
this matter with his usual admixture of jocularity and argu-
ment, and certainly if there were an old act of Parliament
for prohibiting moral squibs and crackers, I think my hon.
friend would come within its provisions. (A laugh.) Now, sir,
my hon. friend charges mo with being an organ and instru-
ment of foreign powers for the purpose otexercising here a
foreign police over persona in this country, and in support
of that accusation he quotes passages that he has found in
foreign newspapers, as well as passages from an English
journal. Now I beg, in the first place, to disclaim any re-
sponsibility as to anything said of me in any newspaper,
whether British or foreign ; and if my hon. friend had had
his attention directed as much as mine has happened to be,
and from time to time, to passages in foreign newspapers
in which my name was mentioned, I think he would have
found that the weight of accusation and of calumny was
'very much of a different kind from that which he has
quoted. (Hear, hear.) I was told the other day that in
the searches recently made in Italy there was a set of dag-
gers found of English manufacture, and that the authori-
ties were indignant and incensed at the detestable and
diabolical conduct of the man who had been Minister for
Foreign Affairs in England, for on these very daggers his
name was inscribed. (A laugh.) They said "There it is
plain enough—Palmer and Son. Oh, the execrable revo-
lutionist ! to send destructive weapons inscribed with his
own name into Italy." (Great laughter). My hon. friend
has indulged in a great deal of humour in regard to the
prosecutions which I have thought it my duty to institute.
Now, I did not in the least disguise—l have never dis-
guised the ground upon which I thought it my duty to in-
stitute these prosecutions. It was not that Mr. Hale had
a few pounds of gunpowder in his possession, or carried on
the trade of making shells and rockets for ordinary pur-
poses ; but when I was informed that there was a great
collection of warlike stores accumulated in an out of the
way place, under circumstances of secrecy, and when I
coupled that with other circumstances which tended to
show that there was a purpose, the object of which was be-
yond the limits of this country, and not connected with
the legitimate interests of commerce, I felt it my duty to
inquire whether these proceedings were or were not con-
trary to law. (Hear, hear.) I was told they were con-
trary to law, and therefore I think I should have neglected
my duty in the office which I have the honour to hold if I
had not taken such steps as the law appeared to authorise
for the purpose of
_putting a stop to those proceedings.
(Hear, hear.) I herd that in doing that I have consulted
the honour and dignity of the country. (Hear, hear.) My
colleagues and myself, and not only the members of the pre-
sent Government, but also the members of the late, and in-
deed of all governments, have repeatedly declared in Parlia-
ment, that while, on the one hand, foreigners who take re-
fuge in this country are entitled to every possible protection
which the laws and freedom of this realm can afford, it was
the duty of the Government, on the other hand, to pre-
vent any foreigner, as well as any British subject from,
pursuing or being concerned in any proceeding or under-
taking for the purpose of threatening the tranquility of
foreign States. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, my hon. friend
has made merry about the question whether the gunpowder
found at Rotherhithe was really gunpowder or not. That
question having been decided by a legal and competent
authority, I think I may say that I never heard of such a
quibble as that by which it was attempted to be shown
that the substance in question was not gunpowder. I think
that the magistrate was perfectly right in his decision.
With regard to the rockets, my honourable friend asks
me whether it is the intention of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to continuo the proceedings which have been com-
menced. Now I have no hesitation in saying that we have
no desire to press hardly in any way whatever on Mr.
Hale ; and I have no hesitation, either, in saying, as to
the last interrogatory of my hon. friend, that the evidence
we have received does not bear out or justify any pro-
ceedings against any other person, whether British or
foreign, except Mr. Hale. (Hear, hear.) But, with regard
to Mr. Hale, let the house remember how the matter
stands. The act under which Mr. Hale was
proceeded
against prohibits any person from making, or using, or
selling any rockets, unless they have the consent of the
Ordnance, with the exception always of the Artillery Com-
pany and the Militia, who are permitted to make and use
rockets for the purposes of war. Under that act there are
two methods of proceeding, the one by summary convic-
tion before a magistrate, and the other by trial by indict-
ment before a court and jury. We adopted the first of
these courses as the simplest and the shortest, and the
least troublesome to any party. The case was opened ;
the evidence against Mr. Hale was satisfactory ; but the
magistrate then stopped the proceedings, and said that he
thought they ought to be referred to another court, in
sir,orderl h
thoaltdthteha, mattertlpo nmgigehaterableptrirnieedipi.heya,
it is a very bad a jury. Now,
precedent to commence proceedings against any individual,
sltop i
ltehteomg great haneadrt.)henlttoia
for you may begin pro-
ceedings without any justifiable cause, for the purpose of
afotraebuthaeey; come to trial. (Hear,
causing annoyance and trouble to an individual, and then,
if, in order to avoid discomfiture, you stop the proceed-
ings, you give the party no opportunity of stating his case.
(Hear, hear.) lam speaking now upon general principles.
The party against whom you acted in that manner would
have the right to proceed against the Government for a
malicious prosecution and would have a case for remedy
for the evil sustained by I think the him. But if that be so, generally
speaking, and. upon abstract princiPles, case
would be much stronger against the inGovernment the
present instance ; because here, what will be said ? Why,
that the Government began proceedings Detore a magis-
tratesto d
with summary jurisdiction, which were _ stopped when
the case had been stated against the defendant, and
when he had had no opportunity of saying anythinge
in his defence— -no opportunity of shaking
the oundevisLtealtl,e7l
of witnesses, or of proving that
were not sufficient to bear out the prosecution. The case
is sent to a jury; but what do the
Government then?
Why they retire from the proceeding, and say that their
drop the pro-
ceedings,case will not bear sifting before a jury ;theyh t dwhich
individual of t a re ress
and deprive the
(Hear, hear.) I
his character would otherwise obtain.
a recedent,
am therefore advised that it would no
t be
• regard to gent as
neral cases that
as a general precedent, or in
Hale should be stopped, but
the proceedings against Mr.
that the judgment of a competent tribunal should be ob-
tained on the matter. At the same time I have no hesita-
t of her Majesty's Government,
tion in saying, on the par
hardly on Mr. Hale ; we shall
that I have no wish tot be
press
hve a ecision on the law, ad
be perfectly satisfieod
.a,Kea
place,d Mr. Hale, I trust, will
that decision havingt
not suffer in any way
by having his case pushed to this
limit. (Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to
correct a mistake into
had fallen. The noble lord seemed t
which the uoble lord
I h ed him with being
r Duncombe) hat c arg
think that he (M .
in this atter. He had done no such
a tool owe usd
mtriaerely quoted the words of the Times. So
awor
thing.
noble lord a tool of Austria, he had
far from thinking the
indebted to him for
believed that M. Kossuth was
always
his life and his property. The hon. member was proceed-