The Sun.
London, England, 1838-06-15 00:00:00

CHURCH LEASES.

Mr. INGHAM presented a petition from the Lessees of Ecclesiastical
Property in South Shields, stating the serious injury the petitioners sus.
tained from the agitation of this question in the last Parliament, without
any Act having been passed; and referring to the peculiarity
of the tenures of leasehold property in the diocese. The peti-
tioners prayed that in any measure which might pass affecting
ecclesiastical property, due protection might be given to their interests.
The Hon. Member presented similar petitions from six townships in
Durham, and from Wallsend, Northumberland.
CAPITAL PUNISHMENTS.

Mr. PEASE presented a petition from 119 Churches and Congrega.
tions In Leicester, representing 4,500 communicants, praying that capi.
tal punishments might be abolished in all cases but those of wilful murder.

MEDICAL CHARITIES' BILL

Mr. (RATTAN presented a petition from some place in Ireland in
favour of the Illedical Charities' Bill.
Mr. F. FRENCH observed that several petitions which had been pre.
suited in favour of the Bill had been put clown as against the measure.
CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.

Mr. PRII,ZGLE presented a petition from the General Assembly of the
Church of Scotland, complaining that due provision had not been made
for the religious wants of the Scotch settlers in Upper Canada, and other
North American provinces.

Mr. HUME presented a petition from Mr. Childs, of Bungay, against
church rates.

Mr. MACKINNON presented a petition praying for the institution of
a Gaelic professorship in the College of Aberdeen.
Mr. THORNLEY presented a petition, signed by 4SO Negro Appren.
tices in Jamaica, stating at great length the evils of the Apprenticeship
system, and praying for its immediate abolition.
Lord STANLEY presented a petition from the Students of the Univer.
city of Edinburgh, praying for an alteration in the regulations of that
University. _ _ _

In answer to a question from an Hon. Member,
Mr. LABO U C HERE intended to postpone the Pilotage
Bill till to-morrow (this day), in order that it might be com-
mitted pro forma, for the purpose of discussing certain amend-
ments which he had to propose.
Sir W. FOLLETT presented a petition from the ship-
owners of Exeter against the Pilotage Bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that he would propose the
Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill to-morrow (this day),
before the other Orders of the Day; and if that would be
finished by ten o'clock, the House could then resume the con-
sideration of the Sugar Duties, By this arrangement the
Benefices Pluralities Bill could not be brought on, but he
thought it would probably be fixed for Monday. He would
further suggest to the House the necessity of sitting on Satur-
day next.

Lord DUNGANNON begged to ask the Noble Lord
whether the Government had taken any measure lo facilitate
the commutation of tithes, as he had stated before Easter
would be done ?

Lord J. RUSSELL said the measure he then alluded to
Was the appointment of Assistant Commissioners to consider
the legal points, and that measure had been taken.

.
- NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
Colonel DAVIE S rose to move the appointment of a Se-
lect Committee to take into consideration the most eligible
site for the two Houses of Parliament. After the burning of
the Houses of Parliament, plans were advertised for and sent in
by several architects, and on the 9th of February, 1836, a
Committee was moved for by the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer to ascertain the hest. This Committee met, and on the
15th of March Sir J. Hobhouse, the Chairman, brought up
the Report, declaring the plan of Mr. Barry to be that
adopted. This resolution of the Committee was founded on
the supposition that 500,0001. would be the cost of the building
supposition grounded on the statement of Mr. Hanbury
Tracy, the celebrated amateur architect. The Committee
was then re-appointed to examine the expenses of the
whole undertaking as estimated by Mr. Barry, and
which he had given as 724,0001. Upon that examina-
tion it was found that no less a difference than 77,3251.
was discovered between Mr. Barry's and the actual esti-
mate. Upon that ground they were under no condi-
tion bound to Mr. Barry. Then with regard to
expense. By a change of site to St. James's Palace, deduct-.
ing a sufficient allowance, which would of course be granted
to her Majesty for a new suite of apartments, a saving of
450,000/. would be made to the public. The Crown property
on the river was 800 feet, which, if applied to commercial
purposes, would at least be worth 101. per foot, or 8,0001. a-
year. Other savings, also taken into account, he could state
the total at 542,5731. In the first instance, the sum allowed
to her Majesty for a new suite of apartments would he about
76,000/. On these grounds, as well as others which he would
not then dwell upon, he hoped a Committee of Inquiry would
be allowed him.

Mr. MACKINNON begged leave to second the motion.
It was astonishing that in a country like England, possessing
giant energies when applied to steam-engines or railroad
communication, the public edifices should be so unworthy
of her hich character. In many instances they displayed bad
ta,te, both as regarded site and architecture, and yet there was
no country in which there was a greater mass of talent.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the House had fully deliberated upon this question, and it was
a matter of surprise to him how any Hon. Member could say
the House was taken by surprise upon it, when they recollected
the quantity of evidence which they had heard in connection
with it. It must be in the recollection of the Hon. Mem-
bers that in 1834 the fire took place which destroyed the
Houses of Parliament. No step could be taken immediately
subsequent to that occurrence, but upon the assembling of Par-
liament in 1835 the Right Hon. Baronet opposite moved for a
Committee to inquire into the most judicious steps to be taken
with respect to the removal of the inconvenience which arose
from it, and the erection of suitable Houses of Parliament.
That Committee published a Report, and upon the Report
a Commission was instituted, in order to discuss the plans of
the projected buildings. Those plans were submitted to
the Committee ; they not only were deliberated upon with the
most minute and patient attention, but they were laid before
the public, and the general opinion was that Mr. Barry's
plan was the best calculated with respect to architecture,
and in every other respect, to effect the purposes required
in the new Houses of Parliament. In his experience
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not remember a plan
upon which so great a unity of opinion was observable as that
which the plani of Mr. Barry was received with by the Com-
mission, and n other quarters. But the inquiry did not ter-
minate there. Mr. Barry sent in his estimate, and another
Committee was appointed to inquire into the amount of the
estimate,
as it would appear when taken in its several depart-
ments separately, and Mr. Barry was directed to make out a
new estimate, with all the beads of expenditure stated distinctly
in the form of particular items. This estimate thus parti-
cularized in its heads of outlay, was submitted to the inspection
of the principal
.officers under the Commissioners of Woods
and Forests, and it was not until it had received their entire
approval, after minute investigation, that the House resolved
upon adopting it. Nothing could less deserve the observation
of taking the House by surprise. Under these circumstances
he was of opinion that they should look upon the subject
as a matter decided upon, and which it was not now compe-
tent for them to open again for discussion, in order to make
any change in the arrangements. It would be highly danger-
ous to adopt such a course. Ile could not for a moment con-
cur in the opinion that a site near the club-houses woold
possess greater advantages. The facts lay the other way. lie
trusted the House would not adopt such a course as that sug-
gested by the lion. Member.

Mr. II UME was of opi,ien that there•wcre other sites in
London which possessed incalculable advantages over the site
which had been approved of. One of those was opposite
Marlborough House, a site which, bath with regard to heath-
fulness of situation and to the advantage it would afford of
appreciating the beauties of the architecture, was immeasur-
ably superior to the present one. The site upon which it was
proposed to erect the New Houses of Parliament was in
many respects deficient in those requisites which it should
possess; it was too near the river, upon which it encroached
to such an extent as to blockade two or three arches of West.
minster Bridge; this in itself was a serious inconvenience.
That it was so blocked up by the buildings at the land side
that its beauties would all be lost ; and in order to obtain a
view of it a person should go into a boat on the river.
—( Laughter. ) Its situation was so low that it could not be
Lealthy, and from those combined objections he was inclined
to think it ought to be changed. He should totally deny that
the change of the situation was one involving tham in ad-
ditional expense. At all events, they ought to obtain a situa-
tion where daylight could be obtained as long as possible, and
not willingly incur so serious and so lasting an inconvenience.
Hon. Members were beginning to see this, at least all those
who had spoken to him on the subject agreed with him,
which certainly indicated a great change, unless it happened
that all those who concurred with him in opinion took occasion
to speak with him upon the subject.—(Laughter.) He cUd
not object to the plan, but to the site.
Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Member for Kilkenny ap- ,
peered to labour under a misunderstanding when he expressed
an objection to the plan but not to the site. If he objected to
one he should object also to the other. The principal claim
of the plan was its adaptation to the size, and it did not follow
that if a new site were to be adopted the same plan would be
appropriate. The Honourable Member remarked that in
consequence of the contiguity of the River there would
be a great want of light in the new Houses of Par-
liament. Now, the sequel was not at all a necessary conse-
quence of that position.—( Laughter.) He (Sir R. Peel)
could assure the Hon. Gentleman that one of the greatest ad-
vantages which houses abutting on the River possessed was the
superior light which such a situation afforded.—( Hear, hear,
and laughter.) That ground of objection was, therefore,
entirely useless. He would implore the Hon. Gentleman not
to persist with his Hon. Friend in the course they had adopted
—he intreated him that they might not have a Penelope at
each side of the House, ready to undo all the acts of the
House as quickly as they could perform them.—( Laughter.)
The Hon. Gentleman had said that several Members had ex-
pressed to him their disapproval of the site chosen for the pro-
jected edifice. He (Sir R. Peel) was strongly inclined to
think that those lion. Gentlemen had been hoaxing the Hon.
Member, for the purpose of obtaining his vote upon some other
question where his views did not entirely accord with those
which they held.—( Much laughter.)
Sir F. TRENCH fully coincided in opinion with the Right
Hon. Baronet. In his opinion it would be better to have the
House built upon the adopted site than in the neighbourhood
of the Clubs ; the exercise of coming to the House, and re-
turning home, would be far more healthful to Hon. Members
than if the House, by being near the Clubs, would permit
them to be too much at their case; a walk home would be far
more beneficial to them.

Sir H. HARDINGE said that it appeared the foundation
of the Houses of Parliament would encroach very much upon
the River, and therefore it was essentially necessary that every
precaution which would have the effect of rendering it more
secure should be adopted. At Woolwich, when they laid the
foundation of the public-works, the foundations of which were
similarly situated, it was thought they had been sufficiently
secured, but they had since given way, and sunk considerably.
Colonel WOOD had been informed that the situation chosen
for the foundation was a quicksand. If such were found to be
the case they would require additional precautions. He un-
derstood that since the coffer dam had been formed, the greater
rush of water against the Westminster-bridge had worn away
the gravel from the lower part of the piers, and thus rendered
them more insecure. The piers of Westminster-bridge had
been cased with timber, and sunk in that situation so that if
the gravel should be worn away to a much greater extent it
might prove highly injurious to the bridge.
Mr. WARBURTON had built upon his property at :the
other side of the water a very high tower, and of a greater
height than any part of the intended buildings would be, and
although it was quite close to the water it had not up to this
time varied an inch from its perpendicular, so effective were
the means of security adopted by the architect.
Sir G. STRICKLAND thought a better site and a better
plan might be adopted. By the present situation the appear-
ance of that beautiful edifice Westminster Abbey would be
destroyed. They might adopt some approved classic model
for the building instead of a combination of two or three orders.

Colonel DAVIES said it would be a saving to the country
of 450,0001. should his plan be adopted.

The CHANCELLOR of the gXCElEQUEßsaid.there
need not exist any apprehension with respect to the security of
the foundation.

The House then divided, when there appeared--
F or the motion 33
Against it 9O
Majority
NATIONAL EDUCATION.

Mr. NV YSE presented several petitions from Liverpool,
signed by 7,000 persons ; from Preston ; and from various
other places in the County Palatine of Lancaster, in favour
of a system of National Education. The lion. Member then
brought forward his motion for " An Address to her Majesty,
that she will be graciously pleased to appoint a Board of Com-
missioners of Education in England, with the view especially
of providing for the wise, equitable, and efficient application
of sums granted, or to be granted, for the advancement of
education by Parliament, and for the immediate establishment
of schools for the education of teachers in accord with the in-
tention already expressed by the Legislature." A strongly-
marked change had taken place in the public feeling respect-
ing education within a very few years. Last year there were
not above 800 names to petitions in favour of a national sys-
tem. This year the signatures to petitions to the same gene-
ral effect amounted to 15,000 in favour of a particular system,
and 36,000 in favour of a national system. If these numbers
were taken in comparison with those appended to petitions on
other interesting and popular subjects before the House a good
index might be found to ascertain the state of public feeling
respecting education. The petition for the abolition of the
Corn Laws contained only 10,000, those respecting Irish tithes
42,000, and those against negro apprenticeship nearly the
same, while those in favour of the Irish Municipal Corpora-
tions, an alteration of the postage-rates, the Lord's Day Bill,
and the Canada question, fell far short of that number. There
had been large meetings on the subject in various parts of
England, but especially in those great towns of the North, the
seat at once of our manufactures and our intelligence, in
Bolton, Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool, and Manchester, and
the anxious desire of all present was for the establishment of
a system of national education. In furtherance of that object
Societies had been established under different names, and mi-
nute inquiries were set on foot by these bodies to ascertain the
exact state of intelligence in the country, and to stimulate
each portion of it into a generous emulation with each other
on that important subject. Then, again, a few years ago, the
press was wholly closed to anything like observation on the
state of education, with the exception of a few of the graver
quarterly publications, when it was treated as a matter of meta-
physics or theology more than as a matter of general interest;
now, however, there was scarcely a periodical of any class
which did not advocate the diffusion of intelligence in some
form or other among the mass of the population. In proof
of the rapid progress Vie question of education had made
among the poorer classes he could assure the House that there was
never a meeting of workmen in large numbers—nay, they never
met two or three in a body that it did not form an engrossing
topic of their conversation. Even the Legislature—so much
behind public opinion in all cases, and the Government, generally
so much behind the Legislature, had changed their views on the
subject, and now entertained the question as one necessary to
the welfare of the community. A few years since he ( Mr.
Wyse) could scarce find a seconder for his motion respecting
education ; now the estimates included an annual grant for its
promotion, and he (Mr. Wyse) had read with great pleasure
an appeal of the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for the
Home Department to his constituents, in which the advisable-
ness of general education was enforced in the most admirable
manner, He (Mr. Wyse) thought it was necessary that edu-
cation should be equally promulgated among all classes, other-
wise the lower class..s would march past the higher, and the
masses advance while the rich and the few stood still. Refe-
rence had been more than once made to the state of crime in
comparison with the state of education, and in France parti-
cularly deductions had been made averse to the extension of
intelligence among the community; but he (Mr. Wyse) was
fully satisfied that these deductions, founded on false or im-
perf, et returns, were radically false and imperfect themselves.
By more recent returns, compiled with greater accuracy, it
appeared that, of those who were brought before the crimi-
nal ti ibunals of that country in 1837, there were, of both
sexes—

Unable to read and write ...... 8,464
Who read and wrote imperfectly... 12,299
Who read and wrote well ... 2,235
Who had a superior education lOl

Thus showing that a superior education WRS found to check in
a powerful manner, rather than promote in the slightest degree,
a tendency to commit crime. Various decisive proofs besides
this could could be produced of the effects of a good education
in preventing crime and extinguishing a tendency to it. In
regard to the extension of education among all classes of the
community, England was at that moment the lowest on the
list of all countries calling themselves civilized. The result of
all inquiries made on the subject was, that of children between
the ages of seven and fourteen, amounting in sill to two mil-
lions and upwards, there were at least one-half that number in
England and Wales totally uneducated; while if those be-
tween three and seven years of age were taken, half a million
more might fairly be added to the account. In that case tke
proportion of educated to uneducated would be as I to 14.
Now, in America the proportion was, in the State of New
York, as I to 3 ; in the state of Massachuetts it was as
1 to 4 ; in S.vitzcrland, generally, as I to 7, while in the can-
ton of Vaud it was I to 6 ; in Prussia as I to 6 ; in Wur-
temberg as 1 to 6 ; in Bavaria as 1 to 6 ; in Holland as 1 to 9;
in Belgium as 1 to II ; in Austria as I to 12 ; in France as 1
to 16 ; and in Russia, throwing tl:c serfs out of the calculation,
as 1 to 6. Thus it was plain that all other countries, with
the exception of France, surpassed England. There was
no extension of schools, no extension of what was still more
desirable, instruction, in the higher branches of education.
By reports brought before societies and private individuals it
appeared that considerably more than half the education of
the kingdom was conducted by means of Sunday schools, and
yet Sunday schools, in addition to being only the one-seventh
of an education, as being only one day in the seven, taught
neither reading nor writing in many instances, never taught
arithmetic at all, and confined themselves solely to religious
instruction, which, though most valuable in itself, still was
not all the instruction necessary. Indeed, according to the

testimony of the Rev. Mr. Burgess, " t 1.57 were, after all, of
comparatively little importance fur the purpo.w. or es supplying
the place of anything worthy the name of education." Again,
day-schools were not in a much better conditio.:, for, if the
Statistical returns were deserving of any credit, tcle teachers
were bad, and there were scarcely any books to ca "ry on the
business of instruction. England was the only coantry
ut
Europe in which there was to be found no Board of public in-
struction in connection with the Government. She formed a
most singular anomaly. amongst the civilised countries of
Europe. The British Government had already recognised the
principle of interference in education. It now gave 20,000/.
a year, a sum totally incompetent to affect a change for the
better in national education. They have granted 40,000/• a
year to the Kildare-street Schools, and formerly a million and
a half, to the Charter Schools, where a question of proselytism
was afloat. By a strange anomaly the management ef the na-
tional education of England was entrusted to the 'Treasury,
which had already au encyclopaedia of duties to perfo.rm• He
called their attention to the disgusting exhibition of fanatical
ignorance which had recently occurred in Kent, and A A!iur`l'd
the House that the inspectors of the Society for the Diflosion
of Knowledge had ascertained on the spot that the outrat;os
had not been caused by want, but ignorance; these peoPh;
were earning two shillings a day, but they had no schools atm'
no amusements, and they appeared to have only one book,
the which, in the absence of others, only served as food'
for their fanaticism. He implored the House to do some re-
deeming act, like that which he proposed, to rescue its cha-
racter from the disgrace which it had fallen into from the
series of rri e a'de contentions with which it had been engrossed

this session.
Mr. HUME, in seconding the motion, observed, that after
the able statement of his Hon. Friend who had just sat downr
-
it was not his intention to occupy the time of the House fur
ther than while he bii2lly called its attention to twcr docu-
ments which bore strongly on the subject before it. The first
of these was a Report made by the Grand Jury at the last
Durham Assizes, in which they expressed their deep regret; as
the lamentable want of instruction amongst those who or°
convicted of offences, and also at the general want of instruc-
tion amongst the working people. The Grand Jury, he said,
are also desirous of expressing their strong regret at the
lamentable want of instruction which so evidently Pre-
vails among those convicted of crime, as well as their
earnest hope that the Legislature will adopt such measure;_
as their wisdom may suggest, not only for the instruction midi
moral reformation of juvenile offenders, but for the more gene'
rsl education of the working classes. To such an extent did this
ignorance prevail, that he believed every Grand Jury in the
cctrtry might with truth make a similar report. A se-
cond document to which he would refer was lilt from a grand
jury, but from a society of working men in the metropoliSr
who in their humble station, and from out of their Fonty
esrnings, were endeavouring to impart to others the advantages
of education They said," Is it co.fF,istent wi h justice. that rut:
knowledge requisite to make a man acquainted with his rights
and duties should be purposely withheld from him, and ti: en tt'ef
he should be upbraided and deprived of his rights on the P2e3,4°,
his ignorance ? And is it not equally cruel and unjust to aut..„'
human beings to be maturedin ignorance and crime, and theow
blame and punish them ? Let our rulers ask themselves;
when they see our prisons filled with victims, our land coverec.;
with paupers, and our streets infested with intemperance an
prostitutionow much of those terrible evils are occasione'
by ignorance, the consequences of their own negleeo?
and how many of their sanguinary laws might have bee
spared—how many of their prisons, bridewells, and
pitals dispensed with—and how many millions of publi';
and private wealth, arrogantly given, and ungracious.•;l
received, might not have been better appropriated I
diffusing the blessings of education ? We are certain-
that inquiry will convince them of the fact, and lead brut °,13
to perceive, that knowledge, like the balmy breeze, cheer
refreshes in its progress ; but ignorance, like the taill'icts
air, scourges with disease as it sweeps onward i"
desolation. We trust Ws have, in some degree, s;u„,
ceeded in showing the groat importance of educat'—ii
and the necessity of publicly extending it, not alf.e
charity, but as a right derivable from society itsxe itS
Now he would ask when these poor men made such en°o
with their small means, was it not incumbent upon the GO,
ment and the Legislature to apply some of the funds n'
country to promote what ought to be considered a eati°"oo
concern ? The body of men to whom he referred asked in
of their statements whether it was not injustice to keePri,reil:v
in ignorance, and then punish them for that ignorance ? 1' of
then proeeeded to point out some of the general evil effects.
ignorance, and they concluded by calling on Parliament to icict.
terfere to check it by encouraging public instruction• He ot
sincerely hope that the Government would take this import
matter into its own hands.
Mr. COLQU HO UN would be happy to support a vete not
a large grant for the purpose of education ; but would
sanction the appointment of a Board composed of the rePtre,..,
sentatives of all the various sects of religion in the cone Jo.
It would be impossible that a Board so composed could o_4
accord in any measure or system combining education
itaiucs;
religious instruction. The only way to avoid the difficul
that surrounded the subject would be either to lay aside ,
ligion altogether from a system of education, or else to unkt,tea
as the Government had done, the members of the Establish
Church with the leading Dissenters, and have both repre-
sented by the acting Board.
Mr. SI, ANE Y said that the Hon. Member who had just
sat down had altogether mistaken the proposition of his Hon,
Friend (Mr. Wyse). The proposal was that with regard to
the expenditure of grants made by Government there should
be a Board constituted to see that those grants were applied as
the Government intended. He thought no system of educa-
tion could be useful or effective that was not ground id
upon religion. He did not, however, understand 11'5.
Honourable Friend to disagree from the principle, 1),11`
quite the reverse—to have distinctly approved of it.
The Hon. Member then enumerated several large towns ill
which only one person in 31 was educated, and asked if lio.
Members were acting up to the religion they professed if the/
would not mete out to the children of others that which thels
wished for their own. In Manchester 14,0001. a year w
expended in giving a bad sort of education to /7,v.0030
n
children, whilst 18,000/. a year would give the best descripteiat
of education to 25,000. Again, in Liverpool, 13,0001. 111,en
was expended in badly educating 11,000 children, "to
20,500/. a-year would give the best sort of instrucfiondoint
15,000 children.—( Hear, hear.) Were they, then, lad
their duty to those poor persons? He maintained they,..s,
not done their duty for many centuries to the lower able to
The Hon. Member hoped that if Government were not ableer:o
establish a Board of Education at present, that at all c_ the
they would give the House a pledge that they would take
subject into their serious consideration.—( Cheers.) a of
Mr. CLAY said that the House might form some
idea
the.
the want of education that prevailed, from the fact that hood,
parish of Bethnal Green, in their immediate neighbour
there were at least 11,000 children without any education
all.
Mr.( Hear, hea.) uch
HAWESr said the children of Dissenters were as reno..
entitled to education out of money raised by the general ft the
tion of the country as were the children of members general
Established Church.—( Hear.) He wished to see all e

placed upon an equaliti in this respect. is e
Mr. BAINES said that the number of Sunday sch°°,';--, -cd
longing to Dissenters, instead of being 4,000, was he he,".:. to
6,000, and he thought it right to mention the fact, in oro;nrr.
prevent any one from being misled on the subject. The was
granted by the Treasury for the purposes of education
20,0001., and this fund, he must say, Isp•a's most unequallYs`to-j.
trluted. Of it the schools connected with the
Church received 10,0001., while the other 10,000/. w'r,,,g was
to the schools of all other religious denominations. " ht
one of those who thought that the subject of education "ur,ht
to be attended to by the State ; and whatever weigh, x',.l tc-
be attached to the opinions of Lord Brougham in otne..
spects, sure he was that with reference to education they were
entitled to the utmost possible credit. Lord Brous lead he
done much for the cause of education for not only had
brought to light funds that had been misapplied, but `le • c
rendered it impossible that abuses of a similar kind could a4?15,c
in future with respect to the application of these fonds. tit.,
views of Lord Brougham, therefore, were entitled. to the
most weight. • ,ally
Sir R. INGLIS said that what he rose for prin":ll,o„,!4
Establi.inven
was to say, that, whatever the merits of Lotd Drab, it' the
opinions might be in other respects, his view %vas 6°o'
education of the children of England should be,, oat.
milted to the hands of the clergy of the Established CL'
6, be
—(" Hear, hea,," from Lord John Russell.) In 11 neon on
believed, Lord Brougham made a most elaborate scat `,leech he
this question of education, and the great result at 0411100.1
arrived was that the education of the people ought to be Pcb.,.
under the direction of the clergy of the Established OW 00n.
( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Leeds and other 040
Gentlemen had talked of sects, and seemed to suilVtilished
the Church of England had ceased to exist as an qnr,
g.
Church ; but he could tell them that they little (year.)
strength of that Church and their own weaknes
their Pr"-
the
It had been attempted " to frighten them ifrh°, -e;- n said that
priety" by a display of numbers, and it )tad -
oc the ground
what the Dissenters demanded they must have' 0 to nu"
of numbers. The argument, however, with referenc
s nun
"of arith.-
hers had been tested by the application of the r-fear as nun"
tactic, and what was the result ? Why, that, as in talk-
bars were concerned, the Dissenters were not justinu, r bor.)
ing of the Church of England as a mere sect.--(1-LaL'ad 000-
It was true that the Honourable Gentlemen oppositeutu, he
must
plimented the Church of England on its wealth, b
the first
claim for that Church the right to be considered as front
estate of the realm.—( Cries of " Question. ques'iwoo pro-
the Ministerial benches.) He certainly should °Pr°
position of the Hon. Member for Waterfeid. .er on
RUSSELL said that the principle, 11"wel/the
which the Tr asury had proceeled in the distributione,
funds placed at their disposal was very different from.01(00/,
which they were presumed to act, for solar from giving 1,,,e
jns-
to one party and 10,0001. to another,without reference to.
Lice of the claim of either, the only object which they bacto'!_,,,c
in the manner in which they distributed the funds was t ;0.
the greats st quantity of education which it was possible to cbrta.'ne
The mode in which they proceeded was this, that wherevteo: of
amount of money subscribed was largest they gave a poriii
the grant, and they did this on the obvious principle t tao be
such means the greatest number of schools were likely
.11
,bo
established, and of course the greatest quantity of good it 'tbo
cause of education effected. Suppose, far instance, th' coot
Treasury had 5,000/. to apply to this purpose and that
of 10,000/. were subscribed, they deemed it more ethos:i
ila
that 15,000/. should be applied for education than they sl'._ns,„
give the 5,000/. where only 5,000/. had been subscribed, 1"
much as 10,000/. was not capable of accomplishing
quantity of educati.m as 15,0001.—( Hear, hear.) TileY.,
ands
sidered it to he their duty to apply the money in their I.a.!_st
in the way which was most likely to produce the greatest amount
of benefit, and had they adopted any other principle the rcsl.l:if
would not have been so satisfactory. In 18133 the number
~d
schools for which money had bei'n ;panted by tho Treasury v"'
so largcoe;

30,366, and the total amount applied was 48,0001, of which
20,484/, only had been granted by the Treasury. The number in
1834 was 41,000, and the sum applied .59,619/.,while the amount
obtained from the Treasury did not exceed 19,3681., so that,
In point of face, in that year no less a sum than 40,0001. had
been raised by subscription for the purpose of education.—
(Hear.) In 1835, 45,321 was the number, and the total ex-
Pence 71,7311., of which 21,6591. came out of the Treasury,
,11-1 the number of the population who received education in
these schools during the whole of the period which he had
mentioned was as follows :

In 1833
1834 1,840,000
1835.
He Owned that, considering the sum voted was so small,
he could not see how the funds could he more usefully
4PPlied than in obtaining the greatest number of schools
possible. But, while he said this, he did not hesitate to ad-
mit that there was another and a much more extensive
question connected with this subject, to which the attention
because of the Government and of that House ought to be turned,
no matter how the sum at present voted for education
bParliament was applied—no matter whether that money
was. applied in this or any other manner—one thing was
obxious, and that was, that there was a large portion of the
Poor
in this country who were totally without the means of
al
descrition of education whatever.—( Hear, hear.) The
lion. Gentleman the Member for Shrewsbury ma le a state-
ment to this effect, and his observations went to show, what
ndeed, could not be denied, that there were large populations
lathe part of the country with which he was acquainted where
Out
o,r
every three two were destitute of every means of
education. This was a disgrace to the country, and with
respect to the necessity of affording to the poor the de-
41nta of moral and religious education he believed they were
~,
unanimous, and that but one opinion was entertained
Whether in or out of that House.—( Hear, hear.) Such a state
of things, he admitted, could not be said to be satisfactory.—
ar, hear.) From various tables and speculations that
"d been formed on the subject some might infer that educa-
tion
Could produce only good effects—that it would operate to
;Press crime—while others again were to he found who would
rny the fact, and contend that crime could not be prevented
educating the people. Ile must, however, allow that it
was the duty of the State to afford the people a choice in the
'natter, and if, after they had been made aware of their
moral and religious duties, they should deviate from them,
then the State would be no longer responsible for their
`Y°.'idnet ; but when the State did not afford them the
fs'htest means of information as to these elements, it was un-
doubtedly responsible for all the consequences which might
arise from their want of knowledge.—( Hear, hear.) With re-
gard to education, where it was provided for neither by So-
cietiess nor by the State it was in the power of the Govern-
ment to do comparatively little. Although the Government,
as Was the case at present, did all they could, to the hest of
their judgment and discretion, to diffuse useful knowledge, it
Was obvious that there must still remain many districts in
Which the poor were left without proper means of instruction,
and that the money necessary for the purpose, if raised at all
."2ald not be procured independently of voluntary contribu.
`,.'°ns from the more opulent of the inhabitants. Ile was there-
lore ready to assert now, as he had done on several former
°Yesions—as he had done two years ago—that he thought on
C part of the State the duty incumbent on it to supply to
Ve people the means of proper education had not been fu1a11ed,....(
alled,....( Hear, hear.) He did think the objections made by
be founded
parties against a general system of education, not to
founded on reason; but he, at the same time, saw many
Objections which might fairly be urged as to the mode in which
thought it would be far better to wait until some agreement
°f opinion had taken place arnon, those who at present took
d • 'fferent views on the subject, than' that they should coincide
41 such an address as that proposed by his Hon. Friend. With
tesPeet to this address, it proposed that a Commission on the
that
of education should be appointed by the Crown, and
one of two courses should be taken. Now there was great
difference
of opinion as to the manner in which such a system of
general education should be conducted. One party wished to
have it in the hands of the Clergy of the Established Church,
,4"other thought it ought to be carried on according to the
vineiples on which the British and Foreign School So-
tTtY acted, while a third took a totally opposite view; and
" question, therefore, was, were these differences to be recon-
t.Ped—were they likely to be accommodated by calling toge-
ther a: central Board to be composed of parties entertaining
'lob opposite notions—of parties whose differences of opinion
tnuat break out, and render the proceedings of theßoard alto.
Rether inoperative ?—(1-lear, hear.) On the other hand it
right be said that this difficulty would be got rid of by mak-
ing the centralßoard consist of only one class. This to be sure
would be one way of obtaining certain and speedy decisions,
.but yet they should recollect that there would be a great por-
tion of persons who would still dissent from and oppose the
decisions to which a Board so constituted might come.—
(Hear.) Now with regard to the different modes of educe-
eation proposed ahe first mentioned was that proposed by the
British and Foreign School Society. Their system was, in
his judgment, the hest adapted for this country.—(Hear,
hear.) There was a third mode brought forward with
seal and talent, which it was said would he better fitted
for a national system of education than either of the other
two. That was a system of education altogether secular in
its nature, and-which would leave to the Clergy and the Ali-
ii,isters—of whatever denomination the children belonged—
their religious education. lindoubtsdly such a plan might at
first sight seem sufficient to reconcile all persons to it, how-
ever they might differ in their creeds, but his firm belief was
that it would not meet the general assent of the Protestants
Pr this country.--( Hear.) He was convinced, notwithstand-
ing it might seem feasible on hypothetical grounds, that such
4 system would fail in implanting in the minds of children that
religious and moral culture which would enable them to be-
tome good members of society ; and, whatever the sentiments
1)' individual Members of that House might be on the subject,
"e confessed that he could not see how such a plan could be a
good one, or that the constitution of such a Board of Educa-
tion as that proposed could do otherwise than lead to great
Jealousy and dissatisfaction.—( Hear, hear.) One plan had been
alluded to which he considered well deserving of attention,
and that was the forming of a better description of teachers
than, at present existed. Now this he must say appeared to
iim to be an exceedingly useful scheme, but then it was one
Which could only be adopted by giving to teachers a certain
annual amount in addition to their salaries. He thought that
/IV could do nothing better than to raise the character of the
schoolmaster.
Some passage or path ought to be opened to
im of future reward, for it was absurd to suppose that any
`"le would pine away his life for 401. or 501. a year hi the
drudgery of teaching, unless lie had some ultimate prospect
°I an honourable retreat, or something like the hope of ad-
'`aneement to stimulate his exertions.—( [hear.) He wished,
therefore, to say, that although he was not prepared to agree
is the proposal of his Hon. Friend, or to say that the Govern-
'neat ought to adopt such a course as he proposed without ex-
trenle caution, he was still fully convinced that it was the duty
of Parliament and the State to give to education a direct and
Positive encouragement.—( Hear. )
Mr. S. O'BRIEN hoped his lion. Friend would perse-
vere in pressing his motion to a division, and if he did ho
kight calculate on his support.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped his
Friend the Member for Waterford would see the inex-
Pediency of pressing his motion to a division. If Parliament
were to double or even quadruple the present grant, it would
be insufficient for the purpose of giving education to all, and
therefore they should be exceedingly cautious how they took
anY step that might put an end to those private resources by
which the progress of education was at present in so great a
degree facilitated. Referring to the model schools he would
}4!)1, let any one look to the model schools of the NationarSo-
YielY, and say were those schools that ought to be adoptedas
„
" model. Let those National Schools make out a sufficient
case, and the Government would be disposed to give them
every encouragement of which they might be proved to be
deserving. It was very much to be regretted that there was
not before the House any practical or satisfactory report of the
Rate of the existing schools. lie was gratified to jer
eeive that whatever jealousies had heretofore existed with re-
'Poet to this subject, and with respect to rival establishments
and different systems, were rapidly passing away. lie was ad-
verse to calling on the Crown to appoint a Board of Commis-
sioners, and felt hound to oppose the motion.
br.LUSHINGTON was anxious that'some practicalfresult
should be obtained with respect to the large masses that were
at Present without means of education. \Then they recollected
t:Lust in Spitalfields and in Bethnal-green there were not less
'"ail 10,000 children, one-half of whom were without employ-
'Tient and without education, he thought that a great respon-
sibility rested upon them to provide education for those who
Were thus destitute.
Lord JOHN R USSELL did not concur in the expediency
ss°' spointing a Commission, as was proposed in the motion
ueferPe the House.
Mr. WYSE made a few observations in reply.
The House divided, and the numbers were—
For the motion 7O
Against it 74
Majority against the motion
NEGRO SLAVERY.
ti Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the appren-
te" of the parish of St. Catherine, in Jamaica. The peti-
ins was sig
ned by '2,226 persons. He moved the petition be
Aid on the table.

LONDON UNIVERSITY.
~Mr. GIBSON moved for a return of the minutes of the pro-
iiedings of the University of London since the granting of the
otai charter in I X 36 up to the present time.
I__ al'°td JOHN RUSSELL said that the regulations of the
versify had not as yet been completed.
After some further conversation the motion was negatived
v,.
Itbout a division.
I,IRANSMISSION OF MAILS BY RAILWAYS.
ABOUC HERE had now to solicit leave to bring in
„, 4401 connected with a subject of great importance to the
.
I"rY. The House of course was aware of the great altera-
Tn in the modes of public conveyance since the construction
?' railroads in various parts of the country. This had partial-
hataltY affected the regulations of the Post-office ; so much so,
the a Committee of that House had been appointed early in
Sewsion to consider what means might be adopted to pre-
tNeer" those alterations proving inconvenient to the public in-
-0„ ; and the Bill lie now sought to introduce was founded
would
ReFort of that Committee. Ile was aware that the Bill
wertlekin subject to. various. objections, but if no opposition
01 now given to its introduction, ample time for discussion
ih°lll,l be afforded on tile second reading% lie trusted that
8 e great importance of sonic measure of this kind would be
tiic‘'n
Perceptible to Honourable Members as to induce
tr
r, to refrain from opposition, and he should now
-g
EinuLe them with a short statement of the main provi-
ns of the Bill. The first resolution of the Committee
st-
4ted, that in consequence of the establishment of lines
q:11.044 parallel with the -rhaikoacl coal, the esta-

Wished mode of conveyance for the mails had become in-
efficient, and that the Post-office in consequence had been
obliged to have recourse to the Railway Companies for their
transmission. In connection with this he begged to remind

the [Luse of the important fact that not only did these Com-
panies possess a monopoly on their lines of road as proprietors
of tolls but as carriers also.—( Hear, hear.) As the tolls they
were entitled to charge ware as high as the rates they ordina-
rily charged to passengers, this would preclude the po:sis3i
lity of any hostile party running trains on the roads with any
approach to equality. He trusted that this fact would be suffi
cient to convince the House that an absolute monopoly had
by law been given to the proprietors of railroads, and that it
had now become absolutely necessary to provide some
remedy. At the same time he begged distinctly to be under-
stood as not casting the slightest imputation on the Directors
of any of the Companies ; on the contrary, in the various com-
munications which he had found it necessary to have with those
gentlemen they had given evidence of the mast satisfactory
disposition.—( Ilear, hear.) The practical measures recom-
mended by the Committee were embodied in the Bill, and
provided, first, for the giving of power to the Postmaster-
General to exact from the proprietors of railroads any rea-
sonable service w'cich he might require in the transmission of
the public correspondence. With regard to the sum to be
paid for such service, the Bill proposed to leave that to the
decision of arbitrators, one to be appointed by the railroad pro-
prietors, the other by the Post Office, and the third by the
two so appointed. Ile was aware that this was not the most
satisfactory mode of proceeding, but the Committee, after ex-
amining in the most careful manner into the general principles
of all the railroad Companies, had not as vet been able to hit
on any better. The Bill also provided that it should not be
lawful for any Company by any by-law to attempt to restrict
the power of the Post Office. The necessity for this was ob-
vious, as some railroads had lately been shut up on Sunday :
this would effectually suspend the correspondence of the
country.—( Hear.) He had the satisfaction of stating to the
House that the provisions of the Bill, so for as he had gone,
had met with no opposition from the proprietors of railroads ;
but he now came to another, which was also the last, and which
he was afraid would meet with some hostility from those gen-
tlemen. Even this, however, he felt convinced, would, on
investigation, be found perfectly reasonable and necessary.
It was the opinion of the Committee that the powers he
had before enumerated would not prove sufficient to enable
the Post Office to carry on the communications of the country,
and he thought that when the House came to consider the
number of lines with which the Post Office would have to
deal—for instance, three between London and Manchester,
and three between London and Brighton—they must certainly
concur in this. The Committee, in consequence of that
opinion,
had resolved that '°lt was expedient that power
should be given to the Post Office to run their own trains on
all railroads for the conveyance of the mails ithout the pay-
ment of tolls, and with permision to carry a limited number of
passengers."
An Hon. MEMBER—The mails only.

Mr. L ABOUC H E RE—His Hon. Friend said the mails
only ; but he begged him to recollect that if passengers were
not allowed the harge for the conveyance of the letters would
be so enormous as to prove a serious tax on the public. The
only way they could attain a reasonable rate was by permitting
the conveyance of passengers.—( Hear.) However, there would
be ample time for debating this clause in Committee on the
Bill. He had only said these few words to allay the extra-
vagant appreheusions which were felt as to the character of
this Bill; which, he believed, if carried, would, although ab-
solutely necessary to possess, be very seldom called into ope-
ration.—( Hear, hear.) He had only deviated in one instance
from the recommendation of the Committee, and that was as
to the repairs of Railroads. He thought it but fair that on
Railroads as on common highways the Post-office should give
some compensation for the wear and tear occasioned in its ser-
vice. He should not further detain the House than by mov-
ing for leave to bring in a Bill to provide for the conveyance of
her Majesty's Mails by Railways.
Mr. GO UL BURN agreed with the Right Hon. Member
that some measure was absolutely necessary, not only to pro-
vide for the conveyance of the mails, but of troops and mili-
tary stores in case of emergency.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It
would be better, in his opinion, to fix a rate of payment by
the Government, proportioned to that paid by the public in
general.

After a short conversation, leave was granted.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL brought in the Imprison-
ment for Debt Abolition Bill, which he stated had been passed
in the other House.
The Bill was read a first time, and ordered for a second
reading on Monday week.
The other notices were then disposed of, and the House ad-
journed at One o'Clock.

HOUSE OF LZ RDS, JUNE 14.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat at Five o'Clock.
PRIVILEGES OF PARLIAMENT BILL.
Lord WYNFORD expressed his intention of proceeding
no further with this Bill.
Lord BROUGHAM was aware of the difficulty under
which his Noble Friend laboured, but he regretted the with-
drawal of the Bill, because it would abolish an exemption
which greatly injured their privileges and hurt their credit.
After a few words from Lords Wynford, Ellenborough, and
Brougham, the conversation dropped.
The Bishop of EXETER presented a petition against the
Bill for the Commutation of Tithes, to which was attached
the names of a considerable number of clergymen, but all in
one handwriting. The Right Rev. Prelate stated that the
writer had the special authority of all whose names appeared,
but the petition was only received as that of the single indivi-
dual. The Right Rev. Prelate then presented a petition
from Bridgenorth against the Church Leases Bill.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from a public
meeting held at Leicester, which represented 119 churches
and 4,500 communicants, and from another place, against the
punishment of death, except in cases of murder. Also several
petitions against llindoo idolatry.
The Earl of RIPON presented a petition from the members
of the Bath Church of England Association, praying their
Lordships to extend to the Church in Canada that support
which its high merits and vast importance demanded.
The Earl of II ADDINGTON presented a petition from
the law-practitioners of the county of Haddington, against the
Sheriffs' Court Advocation and Diligence Bills.
Lord BROUGHAM suggested the propriety of postponing
any discussion upon the East India Slave Protection Bill until
Thursday next, for which day he would give notice of a new
clause relative to the education of the negrocs.
Lord GL ENE LG had no objection to such a postponement.
The Bill then passed through Committee tiro forma, and
the report was ordered to be receivedonThursday next.

IRISH POOR LAW BILL.
Earl FITZWILLIAM thought that it would be advisable
also to postpone the report of the Irish Poor Law Bill which
stood for to-morrow, if there were no objection on the part of
the Government. _ _ _

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had no objection to post-
pone it till Tuesday next.
Lord EL LE NBO RO UG said—Then perhaps the Noble
Marquis would at once lay upon the table the estimate which
had been promised of the expense necessarily attending the
operation of this Bill.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was not prepared then to
produce that estimate, but he knew that great pains had been
taken to collect a correct one.

After a few words from Lord ELLENBOROUGH and the
Marquis of LANSDOWNE,
Earl FITZ WILLIAM gave notice that, on Thursday next,
he should present several petitions for the repeal of the Corn-
laws.

Lord BROUGHAM gave notice that he should propose
two amendments in the Queen'i Bench Sittings Bill, which
would have the effect (as we understood) of extending the
provisions in some respects to the Courts of Common Pleas
and Exchequer.
NEW POOR LAW BILL.

Earl STAN HOPE presented two petitions against this
Bill ; one from 9.0,000 inhabitants of Manchester, and the
other from Bradford. With regard to the latter, he ( Earl
Stanhope) felt it necessary to state that it was not agreed to
at the recent meeting held there, for he understood that at
that last meeting the persons assembled had refused to peti-
tion any more ; but that they intended to address the House of
Commons in the form of a remonstrance and demand, and had
determined to refuse the payment of poor rates, of which they
had no longer the distribution.
The Earl of RA DNO R raid, that under the New Poor
Law they had the distribution of the rates through their repre-
sentatives, the Guardians ; under the old system they had not.

Lord JiROUG HA M could confirm the statement of the
Noble Earl th:lt those persons had determined not to petition,
but to remonstrate, and to refuse to obey the law. A meet-
ing had recently been held ia the neighbourhood of Man-
chester, at which a Reverend person had used these expres-
sions :—" God forbid that there should be any petitions ; but
if you do petition, go with a pistol in your haul." He was
glad to see that that person wvs not a member of the Church
of England, nor of the Methodist connection ; for though he
bad originally belonged to that connection ho had long since
withdrawn himself.

The Bishop of EXETER would feel obliged to the Noble
Lord if he would have the goodness to tell them to what re-
ligious sect that person balivred ?
Lord BROUG M had 'been informed that he belonged
to a branch which had separated itself from the Metho:iis!s;
but he had -no information as to the numbers or denomination
of the class.

The Bishop of EXETER rejoiced to hear that this indivi-
dual did not belong either to the Church of England or the
Methodists, a class for which he had the greatest respect.
Earl STANHOPE did not think it necessary to inquire
into the religious opinions of this person ; the petition which
be had presented was not adopted at that meeting—C" Hear,
hear," from Lord Brougham)—but at one anterior to that ;
for nc.w he could tell their Lordships that no more petitions
would be scut, and if the opinions of the people were expressed
at all it would be in the shape of remonstrance, or in a mode
far less agreeable to their Lordships and far less constitutional.
But he believed that the Rev. Gentleman to whom allusion
had been made had been misquoted, and that instead of saying
what was attributed to him he had only advised the assembly
to provide themselves with arms for the purpose of defence, a
course which was perfectly legal.
Lord BROUGHAM believed the Noble Earl was right.

He had confounded that instance with the case of another
speaker on the same subject, who had said—" Hold a petition
in one hand, but place a finger of the other on the trigger cf
a pistol," and the Rev. Gentleman had adopted the same lice
of argument.
Earl STANHOPE said, that as to laying the finger on the
trigger he could only understand that allegorically.—( Loud
laughter.)
Lord BROUG HA NI certainly thought that it was very un-
figurative indeed_to talk of coming and submitting their claims
to parlianint with pistols b their buds. The array of phy.

sic-al force might be a very cogent argument, but the allegory
of the pistol did not mean merely- ten thousand men, but it
typified armed men.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Earl FIT ZWIL LIAM agreed in th:nking that it was very
probahie that no more petitions might be presented en this
subject, but he believed the reason was that the eyes of the
people had been opened.—( hear, hear.)
Earl STANHOPE sail if the Noble Earl was disposed to
try the sentiments of the people, let him convene a meeting of
the inhabitants of any district of the West or East Riding of
the county of York, and see how many persons he, with all
his influence in that part of the country, would get to support
a petition for the present system. The Noble Earl then pre-
sented several petitions from places in Cumberland, Derby,
and Yorkshire again't the New Poor-law Bill. Some time
ago he (Earl Stanhope) had said that the petitions from the
agrieulturAl districts would have been as numerous as from the
manufacturing- districts, if the population of the former had
not been in a deplorable state of intimidation and oppression.
In confirmation of that statement, he now begged to present
a petition from a Reverend Friend of his, the Incumbent of
the, parish of Disc, in the county of Norfolk—( Name)—Mr.
Morris; in which he stated that two of his parishioners, who
were Guardians, named Ellis and Dodd, had told him, in the
presence of several other persons, that if any of their labourers
dared to complain of the operation of the Now Poor-law Bill
they would immediately discharge them, and that such expres-
sions were so generally known that the men were effectually
silenced by that species of intimidation.
The Earl of R DNOR had made coma inquiry into the
truth of the allegations in the petition, and he found that it
was the constant practice of this Rev. Gentleman, Mr. Morris,
after performing service in the parish Church, to tell his con-
gregation that he wished them to stop and have a conversation
respecting the New Poor-law and the rates. This was so
constantly done that he had the statement of several labourers,
who said that it was their fashion to call it a second sermon,
and that they were tired of it, because no good came of it,
and because they believed no good was intended to come of
it. He (the Earl of Radnor) likewise had papers, signed by
Mr. Ellis and Mr. Dodd, denying that they had employed
threats. All they had said was, that they did not like their
private concerns divulged.
The Bishop of EXETER said that he must take the liberty
of saying that he did not think the Noble Earl was quite cor-
rect in saying that he did not see how the House could not
accede to the prayer of the petition. The prayer only was to
rescue the honest and industrious labourer from undue influ-
ence, and to secure to him a fair return for his labour, without
im, r:sonment in the union workhouse.

Earl FITZ WIL LIAINI said that he did not think the poor
were now in a worse situation than they were under the old
Poor-law. He felt that it was the lot of man that those who
were placed in an inferior position should occasionally be ex-
posed to the pressure of those who had power over them.
He was by no means sure that this power of doing evil had at
all been increased by the New Poor Law Bill. The Noble
Earl ( Stanhope) seemed to imagine that the poor had rights
of which they had since been deprived. Under the old law the
determination of the overseer, unless a justice intervened, was
final ; and under that law the allowance might have been far
less than the allowance now given by the Board of Guardians.
The Rev. Gentleman, in one part of his petition, said that he
should no longer continue to visit the poor in his parish. This
was one of the most extraordinary determinations that a Mi-
nister could come to. He (Earl Fitzwilliam) should think
that he was now bound to visit them with more assiduity than
ever, in order to keep the minds of his parishioners in a pro-
per state.

Earl STANHOPE presented a petition from a neigh•
bouring parish in the same county. The petitioners stated
that the industrious labourers were now in a worse situation
than they were under the old system ; that wages had been so
lowered by the operation of the Bill, in fact, that they were so
low, that the labourer could not lay by out of his earnings any
provisions to support himself and his family, should he be
thrown out of employment; that they would undergo and pri-
vation, almost starvation, sooner than go into the union work-
house ; that the strength of the labourers was decreasing from
want of sufficient nourishment ; and that in their despair they
bad been rendered so utterly hopeless that they might be
driven to the most desperate courses.
The Earl of RADNOR had made inquiries respecting this
petition, and he found that this gentleman had gone about and
induced his labourers to sign the petition. One labourer said
that he signed it because his master told him to do so, and
because he hoped to get a stone or two of flour beyond the
wages of his labour, and another said that he signed it out of
" right good friendship." The fact, therefore, was, that
the petition was a demonstration of the master's opinion,
and nothing more.
Earl STANHOPE had no doubt that the petitioners had
stated their genuine opinions.
Earl FITZ WILL lAM inquired whether the Noble Earl
had not made an inquiry as to the relative rate of wages ?
Earl STANHOPE knew the wages had been diminished.
In Cambridgeshire and Suffolk they had been reduced to half-
a-crown a week.

.:aiiFITZWILLIAM lived in Northamptonshire, on the
borders of Cambridgeshire, and the wages there were los. a
week.

. _
The Earl of RADNOR said that the Noble Earl (Stan-
hope) must be misinformed, for he had never heard of a la-
bourer being employed at sd. a day. On the contrary, he
believed that under the new Bill wages had increased, and
agriculture greatly improved.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that there had been no evi-
dence adduced before the Committee to show that labourers
anywhere received so little as half-a-crown a week.
Earl STANHOPE then presented a petition from a la-
bourer of the name of Richard Hursley, who lived in the
county of Southampton. This man had been in possession of
a cottage for twenty years, and the same cottage had been en-
joyed by his father since 1758 ; but, under the authority of the
Poor-law Commissioners, and under the government of his
Noble Friend (the Duke of Wellington), by an order dated
the 22d of September, 1836, this mau was compelled to
leave his cottage, which was subsequently purchased by the
Chairman of the Board of Guardians. Inconsequence of his
objecting to this ejectment he was dismissed from his employ-
ment. He was told that no fault was found with him but his
refusal to surrender his cottage. On the 23d of March last
he and his family were forcibly ejected from his freehold pro-
perty, and left upon the open common.
The Duke of WELLINGTON—My Lords, when the
Noble Lord refers to me and says that this occurred under my
Government, I should wish to ask the Noble Lord whether
the matter was referred to me in any manner whatever? My
Lords, I think I am not called upon to be answerable for -a
case of this description, and I think it is only that courtesy
which one gentleman has a right to expect from another, that
some previous communication should have been made to me.
My Lords, when the Noble Lord comes forward and states
such a case, there is a certain fairness towards others that
ought to be observed with respect to such transactions. When
the Noble Lord thought proper to advert to me, RS the case
had happened under my Government, he ought at least to
have known before whether the matter had occurred under my
cognizance, or in my neighbourhood. There is a Committee
sitting upon the subject, and I will beg to make a motion, and
that is, that the petition he referred to that Committee ; and,
my Lords, Ido hope that the Noble Lord, having referred to
me, will do me the justice to attend that Committee, and that
he will push the matter through the inquiry, and prove whe-
ther I hare anything to say to it in any manner.--(Hear,
hear.) Let him prove the truth of his case; and, if he does
not do that, allow me to say that he will appear something like
a libeller.
Earl FITZWILLIAM said that if the case stated in the
pct'tiln were true, the guardians had been guilty of a gross
breach of the law, but this House was not the tribunal to
try it.
Lord W H A RN CLIF FE could not attend to the suggestion
of the Noble Duke.
Earl STANHOPE said that it was clear that what be had
said could not apply to the Noble and Illustrious Duke (Wel-
lington). In tact it appeared that the order WAS given in a
union not in the county of Southampton.—( Laughter.) He
thought it right to call the attention of the Noble Duke to the
case, as the party belonged to the county, and he must say
that he had heard with inexpressible regret the sentiments
which the Noble Duke bad more than once expressed in fa-
vour of the New Poor Law Bill.

The Duke of WELLINGTON--I am p,.rfectly ready to
meet the Noble Lord in discussing any opinion which I have
delivered upon the subject ; but I beg that the Noble Lord
will not, because I happen to d.ffer from him, libel me in this
House in respect of a transaction with which I have nothing
to do. My Lords, it appears on the face of the petition itself
that the case occurred in the union of Midhurst, in Sussex,
and not in the county of Southampton at all ; but the Noble
Lord has thought proper to libel me, imputing that the case
came under my government, as if I had anything to say to it.
I will ask is this fair or gentlemanly ?
Earl STANHOPE had not libelled the Noble Duke. fie
hoped the Noble Duke would press his motion. A legal
friend of his (Earl Stanhope's) had gone down, had made in-
quiries, and prepared the petition, and he had no doubt, upon
his authority, that all the allegations in the petition were true.
The Duke of WELLINGTON—As a legal friend pre-
pared the petition, the Noble Lord ought to have spoken from
his brief, but not of me.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.)
The Bishop of EXETER said that it was almost laughing
at a poor man to tell him to go to the Queen's Bench for re-
dress. He thought that the doors of both Houses of Parlia-
ment ought to be open to the complaints of the lowest classes
of their fellow subjects, and that Parliament should always be
ready to assist any where in the administration of the law.
The Earl of RAI)NOR said that the Act by which this
man's tenement was seized was in existence long before the
New Poor-law Bill, and had no connection with it.
Lord ASIIBURTON said that no doubt the case of this
man was worthy of commiseration ; but before he could raceme
relief he was required to give up all his property, and this, as
the Noble Earl had stated, was under an Act passed long be-
fore the new Poor-law Bill.

wd H A NCLIF FE said that they could not enter-
tain the legal question, and he fur one would not be a party
to trying any one's title to property. If his Noble Friend
should persevere in his motion he must beg the House to
excuse his attending the Committee.
Here the subject dropped.

Lord RAYLEIGH presented a petition from Chelms-
ford, in favour of the aboliti,Jn of the tax on idolatry in tho
East Indies.—Adjourned.

The Lord Bishop of Oxford has presented the Rev.
Thomas Jana s, M. A., of Christ Church, Oxford, to the vicarage et' Sit!"
bertoft, Northamptonshire, vaemt by the resignation of the Rev. Lewis
F. Bagot.

BANK CHARTER (IRELAND).—The meeting of
Dublin merchants to petition against the re:rewal of the Bank Charter,
was the first practical dirEttiou of a mot ement that must end in IncA•
iog down the monopoly.—ribt,

THE SUN, LONDON, PRIDA Y, JUNE 15, 1838.