The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-11 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MAY it, 185:3.

restricted territories to which he had alluded: Western
Australia was a colony to which they might continue to
be sent ; but he quite agreed with the noble earl that
the foundation of other penal settlements would not
answer the purpose for which transportation was now
intended and ought to be supported. A noble and
learned lord said the other night they might be sent to
Falkland and Greenland. He did not know what sort
of discipline they could be subject to there. That
showed how little people really felt what was the inten-
tion of transportation, because it was not such a system
as could be found in the Falkland Islands that they
wanted to establish. That might be a very good prison,
but what was required was the absorption of the con-
vict into the population of the country to which ho was
sent. However, he was not one of those who thought
it impossible that some use might be made of Falkland
Island for this purpose. At all events, it was a subject
that deserved inquiry. It was their opinion that tran-
sportation, so far as it could possibly be exercised, was
a most valuable means of secondary punishment, but
whether it were valuable or not, and however anxious
they might be to exercise it, and to carry it into effect,
as extensively as the means they possessed would allow,
still he did think the time had come when it would be
absolutely necessary to make large provision in this
country for the treatment of our criminals, whether
sentenced to transportation or not. For it was certain
that however much they might wish to employ transpor-
tation, the exercise of it must necessarily diminish ; and
therefore they must endeavour to find some other mode
of treating a vast proportion of those persons who were
sentenced to be thus punished. He thought they had
had great success in this attempt ; that the institutions
that had been established, the reformatory systems that
bad been introduced, joined with the labour on public
works, had been attended with the very best effects, and
were said to have been greatly successful. He believed
it was probable that some change would have to be made
in the very indiscriminate mode of sentencing to transpor-
tation which had taken place for many years. Many
hundreds had been sentenced to transportation for seven
years, and what did that mean ? It meant two or three
years in the hulks, and then, having undergone no
discipline but the whip, to be turned out on the country.
That had gone on year after year without the great
alarm which some noble lords professed now at the pos-
sibility of some criminals being discharged into the coun-
try after a system of discipline from which there was
every reason to hope a moral reformation had taken
place. But the great majority of those who were sen-
tenced to seven years' transportion were not persons who
were guilty of any great amount of moral turpitude.
No doubt there were varieties, and no doubt that was
one of the causes of the inequalities of transportation.
Upon the sensitive temperament of many persons, it
was worse than death • to the careless and reckless it
was no punishment at all. (Hear.) Many of their lord-
ships would recollect the case of a member of the family
of a noble lord, a member of that houSe, who was so
determined to go to Botany that he declared if his family
did not send him there he would take good care he was
sent there. There was no doubt that transportation
fell most unequally on the persons who were sentenced
to it. The noble earl, though he spoke of the necessity
of continuing transportation to Van Diemen's Land,
had very much confined his observations to the treat-
ment at home, and he had described, and justly, the
effect produced by the discipline in those establishments
to which he had referred. Nothing could be more true
and just, and the necessity of extending that system
became more apparent every day. And without giving
up transportation ? Quite the reverse ; retaining it espe-
cially for those cases which were of a serious descrip-
tion. He thought that for minor offences the system of
reformatory imprisonment and labour on public works
might be established for a great portion of those persons
who were now sentenced to transportation. The noble
earl had talked to alarm them by referring 'to the ex-
ample of France ; he said, indeed, that the persons dis-
charged there were the terror of the country. No doubt
they were, but why ? Because they had not undergone
that discipline and reformation which they were endeav-
ouring to give to criminals in this country. It was too
soon yet to speak with certainty on the subject, but he
thought that the experience of the few years which had
passed since the institution of the establishments at
Portland and Dartmoor augured favourably for their
success. The noble lord had made light of the
notion that transportation was no longer the same
terror that it was formerly, and he said it was
desirable that this feeling should operate in the
minds of persons so sentenced. He (Lord Aberdeen)
thought that these reckless minds were not incapable
of being moved by vague notions of this descrip-
tion ; but whether that was so or not, one thing
was certain, that in consequence of the extension of vo-
luntary emigration, the prospect of crossing the sea had
no longer any terror in it. He thought it would be a
great misfortune if criminals convicted of the most seri-
ous offences where not sent out of the country. Where
the sentence was for a longer period, say 15 or 20 years,
then, of course, it would be desirable to carry the sen-
tences into effect. The noble earl had said they would
turn out from these establishments the worst persons in
the country. Why, they should not only turn out the
worst, but they should turn out the best, and if this
system were good for anything, it was precisely that
discrimination might be exercised, and that they should
let out those persons who had shown, by their conduct,
that they were deserving.
Lord CAMPBELL.—Then you would have perpetual
imprisonment in England ?
The Earl of ABERDEEN said no, in serious cases he
thought transportation ought to be observed, but in tri-
fling cases it was a farce to sentence them to transporta-
tion. A large portion of these persons would be re-
formed ; the experience they had had of the establish-
ment, although but short fully justified that expectation.
They had taken this step which the noble earl said was
so rash, they had made provision for the number likely
to be sentenced this year, and there would be no chance
of any inconvenience arising from the persons whose
sentences would expire in the course of the ensuing year.
Ho hoped that a well devised plan would be completed
in all its details, because the noble earl must not suppose
that this had been decided, that the abolition of transpor-
tation had been decided upon without any due substitu-
tion. Far from it. He had already stated what was
the substitute, as to a large portion of these persons,
and accommodation had been provided for any probable
number that might be expected this year ; but the pre-
cise amount of gradation of punishment, the duration
and the treatment which should be substituted for that
portion of the punishment which consisted of sending
them abroad with tickets of leave—these had not been
determined on ; they were in consideration, but they
were only details, and with the assistance and the experi-
ence of the very able and efficient persons who had the
management of these establishments, he did not think
but that they would have such a system as would prove
satisfactory. He did not think it necessary to say more,
except to protest against the notion which the noble earl
throughout his speech had endeavoured to convey, that
they had come to a decision to abolish transportation be-
cause they found it impossible to send convicts to Van
Diemen's Land, for that was the whole amount of his
charge.
The Earl of CHICESTER then rose to move the
amendment of which he had given notice, "That whilst
in the opinion of this house it is expedient to retain the
punishment of transportation for some of the graver of-
fences against the law, it has become necessary to re-
strict such transportation to a few only of the colonies,
and to places which, from their limited extent or popu-
lation, are at present incapable, without prejudice to
their own social condition, of affording employment to
any considerable number of discharged convicts. That
it has therefore become the duty of Parliament to adopt
immediate measures for providing :increased means of
secondary punishment in this country. That such se-
condary punishment ought to be, both in kind and dura-
tion, sufficiently penal to exercise as deterring an in-
fluence as the punishment of transportation, and at, the
same time of so reformatory a character as to afford a
reasonable hope that the convicts who undergo it will,
on their discharge, become useful members of society,
and qualified to obtain employment either in this country
or in the colonies." He said it was with considerable
pain he
hetwheasadodbrliegses,datsoheophpaodsealwthaey noble earl who had
admiration the manner in which thsenobe
regarded
arl ihthadg dis-
charged the office of chief secretary for the colonies, and
because he must admit that, in conjunction with his
earl
right hon. friend Sir George Grey, more was done during
his administration for the improvement of secondary
punishments in this country than had been done by any
previous administration. He objected to the motion,
because it implied a continuance of transportation to a
greater extent than he believed to be desirable, or, in
the present circumstances of the colony, to be either
politic or just. He concurred in much that was said by
the noble earl, and he also agreed with the noble earl
who had just sat down, that, for the graver offences,
transportation ought to be continued. He agreed also
in what had been said with regard to the necessity of
the interference of Parliament in this question ; he be-
lieved it to be quite necessary thtarttshpeerertsahtioeunldeebueld some
alteration in the law, because an
not
be carried out to the extent that the law allowed, and
that was another reason why he could not concur in the
motion of his noble
successful experiments proved that they had discovered
friend. lie believuenclitshhamteantvsaericieuatylloyf
napiepsl,icaerblewhteo
wcoenrevicts t
a satisfactory system of secondary p
o
eheraertgoedbemsentthit.so teheeenctorylo-.
He thought great blame attached to Parliament and
when everybody knew
becomin more d
that transportation was always
wag an
) aso afraid of
to Government for not having made more adequate pro-
vision for secondary punishment,
o
more difficult. If the noble earl (Grey .
bewl iws
to be extremely fit
arguments were so far reformed a
' s the colonies,ifthey
were
to be useful members of society
• chievous effect of these
the mischievous effects of these convicts who by his
were to be so afraid of the mischievous
persons being discharged at
number of convicts,
earl to say to that much- homre, what had the noble
months' imprisonment ?
from two years' down to three
of our criminal popu-
They constituted the great mass_ing
thrown on society.
lation, and were continually b
equally criminal, who were lcalirsgceharged every day after
generally be unwise for them to
which he thought it would not l
had proposed, and
such resolutions as he
adopt some
amendment.
concluded by moving his
said the noble earl had entered
The noble earl then stated e the grounds on
The Earl of D
aerdrsto secondary punishment, and
some years with reg
alified to speak on the subject of
was better qualified
no one punishment than the noble
transportation and secondaryhwever,
that in the greater part
into a detail of the course eParliament had pursued for
He must say,
earl.
of his speech
did to the resolution of the noble earl on
his amendment
He did not see why any one sup-
portingthe cross benches.esoution might not also vote for the
the r
he had given the go-by to the question, as
for
resolution, without giving any opinion
support the r-
endment. The noble earl
against the merits of the am
or
nt had stated that up to
at the head of the Governme f
tra
nsportation had
this question o
amendment -but he was anxious. to state why he should
the present moment

and thought of them in the mother country • and,
though there was perhaps a little vanity in this, the
feeling was on the whole praiseworthy, and did them
credit. He only wished they would estimate a little
more correctly what the opinion of this country really
was. But this was a tender point with the colonists ;
for the more they could induce people to settle amongst
them the greater would be the value of their property.
They imagined that being a penal colony prevented emi-
gration to them, but there could not be a more complete
mistake. He had already said that the first free settlers
were tempted to settle there by the cheap labour which
was promised them. It was only three years since the
first convicts were sent to Western Australia. Previous
to that time the colonists were on the point of abandon-
ing the settlement ; but now he actually found an article
in. the Western Australian Magazine congratulating them
on the fact that the convicts had led to a great accession
to the better classes of society there. (A. laugh.) Did
noble lords really believe that if the numerous persons
in this country who were desirous of emigrating, and
who had a little money to invest, were offered Land in
Van Diemen's Land at a moderate price, with a gratui-
tous passage there, and at the same time a plentiful sup-
ply of cheap convict labour, as well as a market for their
produce at the high prices which they must command
since the discovery of gold—did they really believe that
persons contemplating' emigration would not soon find
out that Van Diemen's Land was the place to go to in
order to get rich—especially if they saw that there was
such an admirable police that they might enjoy perfect
safety ? (Hear, hear.) They might talk till they were
tired about the moral disadvantages of a convict popu-
lation, but with such prospects they would never pre-
vent persons from going there. Certainly, if he (the
noble earl) were contemplating emigration, Van Die-
men's Land would be the colony he should hoose. But
if transportation ceased, any man that expected to make
his livelihood other than by the labour of his own
hands, would be insane to go there ; because it was ob-
vious that no produce he could raise by the means of
labourers, to whom he must pay such wages as would
deter them from going to the diggings, would have any
chance of competing in the market with that brought
from America or even England. (Hear, hear.) How-
ever, as the legislative council had spoken, he must
assume that it expressed the opinions of the community ;
and, right or wrong, that opinion was that transportation
should cease. But when he was told that the inhabitants
of Van Diemen's Land and Western Australia would
rebel, and that the example of the American colonies
would be followed, he could hardly forbear from smiling
at the perfectly ludicrous contrast between the two cases.
"What similarity was there between the strong feeling
which had led to the ejection of tea into Boston harbour,
and the feeling which did not prevent the scenes which
took place at the arrival of the convict ships ? Why, in
a recent paper there was a most graphic account of the
tumult which such an event occasioned. Even the as-
sistance of the military had to be invoked to restrain the
crowds of rich and poor who assembled, not to drive
away the convicts from their shores, but to secure their
services. (Hear, hear.) What a contrast between the
persons who had indulged in this foolish talk in the co-
lonies, and the great men of the American revolution—
men not less distinguished for their moderation than their
firmness—men whose moderation was such that, had
there been the smallest infusion of political wisdom in
the councils of this country, the calamitous struggle and
the secession of those oolonies would never have taken
place. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the amendment
which he understood the noble earl (Lord Chichester)
intended to propose, he trusted that it would not be
pressed. If he wished to take the sense of the house
upon it he hoped the noble earl would bring it on
as a substantive motion, because it was entirely beside
the question he (Lord Grey) wished to place before the
house. The language of that amendment was utterly
incomprehensible. It talked about sending convicts to
colonies which were "incapable" of receiving them.
Surely there must be a mistake, for it was not common
sense. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl wished the govern-
ment to devise a system of secondary punishments which
should be as much dreaded and as reformatory as trans-
portation. Why that was a problem which every civil-
ised nation had been attempting to solve for the last cen-
tury. Yet the noble earl demanded an immediate solu-
tion. Was that rational ? (Hear, hear.) Again, the
noble earl distinctly recommended additional means of
secondary punishment in this country, and admitted that
new buildings would be necessary. Was it then reason-
able to put an end to transportation before these further
arrangements had been provided ? Surely this alone
was sufficient to prove his (Earl Grey's) case. If, how-
ever, the noble earl did press his amendment, he (Lord
Grey) trusted the house would deal with it as merely an
indirect way of evading a question which the Govern-
ment did not feel prepared to meet. Was it right, three
months after the ships had been chartered which should
have taken convicts out, they should be discussing what
to do with them ? Surely the course the Government
had taken was an erroneous one ; but it was still not too
late for Parliament to interfere, and he asked them,
therefore, to agree to the resolution of the terms of which
he had given notice, viz. :—" That an humble address
be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty
will be graciously pleased to give directions that the
arrangements with respect to criminals sentenced to
transportation, which were in force in the year
1852, may not be changed in such a manner as
to prevent the ultimate removal of such offenders
from this country until a full account of any contem-
plated alteration in the above arrangements shall have
been laid before Parliament, and till Parliament shall
have had an opportunity of considering the measures it
may be intended to adopt previously to their being car-
ried into execution."

always been considered apart from party or political
views. He thought the noble earl could hardly have
meant to except the present discussion, for when he
looked to the state of the house lie would not see that
there was any combination between the noble earl
(Grey) and his (the opposition) side of the house. Much
as he respected the great ability of the noble earl on the
cross benches, they had had differences of opinion on
many subjects, and their present views were so much at
variance that he did not think his agreeing with the
noble earl upon the present question would be any evi-
dence of party feeling or agreement, excepting that the
noble earl had intimated that the course which was
about to have been adopted by the Government with
which he (Earl Derby) was connected was a more pru-
dent one than that which had been taken by the present
Government. The noble earl at the head of the Govern-
ment had stated that it was by no means their intention to
discontinue the present system of transportation, and
that had relieved his mind, because certainly the lan-
guge of the noble duke at the head of the colonial de-
partment had had a somewhat different tendency. (Hear,
hear.) The noble duke said that not only was transpor-
tation to Van Diemen's Land to be put h stop to, but
that it was impossible not to see that the portion of our
colonies that would consent to receive convicts was few
in number and limited in extent, and that there was only
one colony in Western Australia which was willing to
take convicts, and that would only be available for a
short time. The impression produced on his mind was
that the Government had come to the conclusion that
transportation must soon cease to become a portion of
our criminal system. (Hear, hear.) He was therefore
glad to hear that the Government were not about to dis-
continue transportation : and he had also heard with
satisfaction that whilst they would limit it within nar-
rower bounds, the noble earl was of opinion that changes
in the law were called for by which transportation should
be c4rfined, formally as well as really, to a more limited
number of offences ; and that when persons were sen-
tenced to transportation it should be carried out. It
was desirable that criminals should be well aware of the
penalty awaiting their offences, and that the sentence
to be pronounced should not be a mere brut= fulnten.
He believed that there were many offences to which the
punishment of transportation was now applied for which
it would not be convenient to continue it. The noble
earl who had just sat down went farther in disparaging
the advantages derived from the system of transportation
in comparison with other modes of secondary punish-
ment, for he seemed to think that transportation was
for those who were utterly irreclamable, and that the
reformatory influence was only to be applied through a
different system. He, however, was of opinion that
there was more chance of amendment from transporta-
tion than from a reformatory system in this country,
followed up, as it must be, by a recurrence to former
habits and associates. And so far from wishing to re-
strict transportation solely to those with regard to wham
but little hope was to be entertained, still less with re-
gard to the most aggravated cases, lie thought there was
a class of persons who, after a reformatory system in
this country, might obtain signal benefit from transpor;
tation to the colonies, and who, might be an advantage
to the community to whom they were sent. (Hear,
hear.) Transportation, therefore, he thought,
.might be
available as a valuable sequence to a reformatory pro-
cess. He thought, however, that the time had arrived
when we must look to the abolition of transportation to
Van Diemen's Land. The feeling which existed in
that colony against receiving convicts might be partly
produced by the encouragement given in this country
to the notion that a colony which received convicts
was fa degraded colony. He thought that to be a
mistake—(heir)—but the idea was so strongly impressed
on the people of Van Diemen's Land, that he did not
say we had not the right or the power to send convicts
there, but he thought it would not be good policy to con-
tinue to do so. (Hear.) They had given Van Diemen's
Land an indepenlent government of its own, and from
that time they must take the legislative body to be the
representatives of the people, and the organ for expound.
ing the feelings and wishes of the colonists. (Hear.)
And where there was a strong feeling pervading the
whole of a colony, especially on such a subject as the ad-
mission of convicts, it was unwise to run the risk of rep
peating in Van Diemen's Land scenes such as they had
witnessed in other colonies. (Hear.) The field for trans-
portation would consequently be limited to an extent
which would be found inconvenient, and it would mate-
rially diminish a large portion of the reformatory princi-
ple. Thinking it necessary to make an immediate pre-
paration for meeting that emergency, he did not the less
agree with the motion in regretting the precipitate man-
ner in which the Government had given effect to an in-
tention, which he thought might safely have been carried
out more gradually, and which be and his late colleagues
fully entertained, but the execution of which they were
willing to postpone until they made the necessary ar-
rangements. He did not think that the Government had
taken any step which did not belong to Ministers of the
Crown ; but they had done that which rendered an im-
mediate alteration of the system inevitable, without
giving Parliament an opportunity of discussing the sub-
ject, or having before them the full details of the plan
by which they were going to supersede the system at
present in operation. The late Government would not
have advised her Majesty to discontinue the present sys-
tem without coming to a satisfactory solution of the plan
to be substituted. They were anxious to intimate to the
inhabitants of Van Diemen's Land their wish to comply
with their very natural desire, but they were desirous, at
the same time, of proceeding cautiouslybefore they made
any change. Having alluded to the changes which had
been made, he must express his regret that the Govern-
ment had now made another sudden change, leading the
public mind, perhaps, to believe that there would be a
greater change than was contemplated. He would not
dwell on the individual injustice that would be done to
convicts, for he was sure that the Government would do all
they could to limit and prevent it. But when the present
system was introduced he pointed out to the noble earl
that as to deportation ho was only postponing the evil day,
and that the pressure would come as soon as the convicts

The Earl of ABERDEEN said it would perhaps bo
convenient for him to state thus early in the debate the
views of her Majesty's Government upon the subject ;
and he did so the more readily, because notwithstanding
the appeal of the noble earl, he could not help enter-
taining some hope that he (Lord Grey) would not him-
self be disposed to press his motion on the house. In
the first place this motion was one of a very unusual
character. It was an intervention of a description
rarely exercised towards the legitimate use of the pre-
ro„,aative of the crown, and of the executive government.
(Hear.) The noble earl thought the Government had
done something which required the sanction of Parlia-
ment to authorise. They had done no such thing.
(Hear, hear.) Had they been disposed to take any step
requiring the sanction of Parliament they should most
readily have requested the house to authorise or refuse
their assent to such a proceeding. But they had done
nothing of the kind. All they had done was that which,
right or wrong, wise or unwise, it was perfectly com-
petent for them in the exercise of the discretion of the
executive Government. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with
the noble earl that this subject had always been treated
as not belonging to any party considerations. (Cheers.)
The subject was one which interested our social con-
dition so nearly, and was so important to the welfare
and huppiness of such vast numbers of our fellow-citi-
zens, that it had been very properly put aside from all
considerations of party ; and he (Lord Aberdeen) had
certainly no reason to imagine that the noble earl
at all wished to give it that character. (Hear,
hear.) He was ready to admit that the noble earl and his
colleagues had made great improvement in the treatment
of convicts and in their discipline both at home and
abroad. At the same time he must be permitted to ob-
serve that the difficulties under which they were labour.
ing at that moment had been mainly created, however
unintentionally, by the noble earl himself. The practi-
cal question was, after all, notwithstanding all that the
noble earl had said, could transportation be continued ?
and he would show that the noble earl had made that
impossible. And for this reason—when, in 1846, Mr.
Gladstone was Secretary for the Colonies, he found the
system introduced by the noble earl opposite had led
however well devised (for he was not inclined to find
fault with that system) had led to such abuses, and that
the country had arrived at such a state of horror and
abomination that he (Mr. Gladstone) found himself un-
der the necessity of suspending all transportation for 10
years. Shortly after that declaration a change of Go-
vernment took place, and the noble earl succeeded him.
The noble earl, on the sth February, 1847, wrote to Sir
W. Denison, in Van Diemen's Land, to this effect :
" I have to inform you that it is not the intention of her
Majesty's Government that transportation to Van Die-
men's Land shall be resumed at the expiration of two
years, for which it has been already decided that it shall
be discontinued."
Earl GREY—Read the former part.
The Earl of ABERDEEN was quite ready to admit
that the noble earl intended something different from
what he said. (Earl Grey, loudly, hear, hear.) Well,
if the noble earl would hear, he would state what he was
about to say. Whatever interpretation the noble earl
might put upon this letter now, Sir W. Denison under-
stood it in its plain meaning, and he announced it to his
legislative council, as an intimation that no more con-
victs were to be sent to Van Diemen's Land. (Hear,
hear.) It had thus become a question of good faith, be-
cause the inhabitants had attached that meaning to the
declaration of their own governor, founded upon the
dispatch of the noble earl. (Hear, hear.) Now, he
(Lord Aberdeen) knew very well that what the noble
earl meant was that transportation should not be re-
sumed in the same manner as had been the practice
before. But neither the governor to whom he wrote,
nor the colonists to whom Sir W. Denison explained it,
understood it so. They undoubtedly received a fixed
impression that the late Government intended to abo-
lish transportation to Van Diemen's Land. (Hear.)
Well, but with that conviction on their part, it would
be difficult to disabuse them of their belief, which had
been confirmed to them over and over again by the de-
clarations, the emphatic declarations, of their legislative
council. (Hear.) The noble, in one instance, had writ-
ten that the Government of this country had no right to
send convicts to any colony against the consent of the
inhabitants.
Earl GREY—Not being originally a convict colony.
The Earl of ABERDEEN—Very well; but surely
the noble earl ought to pay some respect to the legisla-
tures of these colonies. Was it only against the Church
of England that the noble earl supported the declara-
tsC:etenyadexasprethssaetd,whenrde
wtoasbeasucpoploonrytedtoin
declara-
tions of the Legislative Assemblies—was it only the
iashgeasintsht aat,
the
protest w
of convicts being forced upon them, and were they
not to be listened to or receive any attention from their
lordships ? The
noble earl ought to be consistent, and
to give due • weight to the voice of those assemblies
which he had helped to constitute in these colonies.
The noble earl had throughout treated the whole of
this subject as if GovernmentsTh had taken a decision to
abolish transportation.
no such thing, but they were anxious
had not only done
e anxious to preserve
transportation. Undoubtedlyth e field in which it could
be exercised was diminished ; and, as he had already.
said, whether inadvertently or not, that difficulty had
been mainly created by the noble earl himself. (Hear,
hear.) But there were settlements that • still remained,
and he thought that by good management at home the
number of convicts transported might be so dn • ninished
as possibly to find the means of accommodation in those

were entitled to be sent out of the country. From an
expression which bad dropped from the noble earl at the
head of the Government, he did not think there was
much difference between his views and those of the late
Government as to limiting the amount of transportation
and the offences for which it should be inflicted. He
thought it desirable that there should be some locality,
not far from this country, in which there should be a
prison for persons of whom there was no hope of amend-
ment, and who should not, therefore, contaminate a
colony. (Hear, hear.) He did not mean that they
should always he kept within the walls of a prison, but
within a narrow space, subject to surveillance, even for
life. That might be a substitute for transportation, and
he thought he inferred from what had fallen from the
noble earl that he did not differ widely from those views.
(Hear, hear, from the Earl of Aberdeen.) In conclu-
sion, he must say that he saw with regret that the Go-
vernment had taken a course likely to lead to embarrass-
ment, having the appearance of yielding to popular feel-
ing in Van Diemen's Land against transportation there,
and that they had adopted the discontinuance of the
present system before they had matured the plan they
had intended to propose as to secondary punishment.
He complained, moreover, of their taking a final and
ultimate step without first consulting Parliament on the
subject. Entertaining those views he should support
the resolution of the noble earl on the cross benches.
(Hear.)
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said that the noble earl
(the Earl of Derby) had expressed his intention of voting
with the noble earl (Earl Grey) who had brought forward
this motion, principally because of the approbation which
he had expressed in reference to the course which the
late Government intended to pursue. At the same time,
the noble earl (the Earl of Derby) abstained from
making any statement as to what those intentions were.
He (the Duke of Newcastle) could assure the noble earl
that however the noble lord who made the motion might
approve of that course, he was only able to judge of it
from what was contained in the speech from the throne,
and in a dispatch of the right hon. gentleman (Sir J.
Pakington) who prededed him in office. The noble earl
(Earl Grey) had, in his speech, charged the Government
with having violated the spirit if not the letter of vari-
ous act of Parliament. Now he (the Duke of Newcastle)
utterly denied that the Government had done this. It
had acted upon the power which the Crown had invari-
ably exercised, upon the advice of ministers, to decide
to which colonies transportation should proceed, and
where and in what degree it should be stopped. There
was no act of Parliament stating to what colonies trans-
portation should take place. The matter had always
been regulated by orders in council, and the noble earl
must know that on more than one occasion an order in
council had been made, repealed, restored, and repealed
again merely upon the advice of Ministers. Again,
what had been the practice of late years with regard to
transportation ? Latterly, until within a short time,
prisoners transported for seven years had never been
transported at all, but merely sent to the hulks. More
than that, Ministers had not only taken upon them-
selves never to carry the sentence of transportation into
effect, but, even since the late alterations, prisoners sen-
tenced to seven years' transportation were detained for
two years and a half in solitary confinement and upon
public works before being sent out of the country.
What was the effect of these alterations by the Govern-
ment of which the noble earl was a member ? Under
it a man sentenced to transportation for seven years was
virtually transported for life. The noble earl (Earl
Grey) looked amazed at this, but it was the case, for
under these regulations a man was transported and left
without the means of returning. The early part of the
speech of the noble earl (Earl Grey) was devoted to the
praise of transportation in the abstract, but at the close
of his observations he adverted to a speech made by him
upon a former occasion, and expressed an opinion,
which it was only due to the colonists of Van Diemen's
Land that he (the Duke of Newcastle) should advert to
in that house. The noble earl went so far as to speak
of this anti- convict movement as a sham. lie (the
Duke of Newcastle) held in his hand a list of petitions
from Van Diemen's Land, which either had been, or
were about to be presented to the other house, praying
that the system of transportation might be altered. The
t
petitions were not got up by professed agitatombu
were the sincere views and opinions of the people. There
were 42 of them, and among them 19 were from congre-
gations of the Established Church, 8 from Presbyterian
congregations, 7 from the Baptists, 1 from the free
church, 1 from the Dissenters, 1 from the Roman
Catholics, and 1 from the Jews. This did not look as
though the matter were a sham. Even upon pecuniary
grounds, the petitioners were dissatisfied with the pre-
sent state of things. But were not the colonists the
best judges of their own intests ! When the noble lord
at the head of the Government stated that the noble earl
(Earl Grey) was the last man who should oppose the
wishes of the colonies, the noble earl had made a gesture
of dissent ; but he (the Duke of Newcastle) could
qudte from the interesting book which the noble earl
had lately published two pages in which he laid down
the constitutional maxim, that the colonies were the
best judges of their own internal affairs. Whilst upon
, the subjett he might refer to a dispatch of the noble