The Sun.
London, England, 1838-05-15 00:00:00

Position that a plan which embodied that principle would be final and
satisfactory. That, I say, is a proposition that was true at the time
when those resolutions were carried. If at that time a measure had
passed embodying that principle, having, as it would have, the concur-
rence of all the popular leaders in Ireland, and having the faith of the
Government and the assent of Parliament pledged to it, I think it would
have been a final and satisfactory settlement of the question of Tithes
and the affairs of the Church of Ireland. But, Sir, I cannot say so now.
(Hear, hear.) I cannot say that any plan without that principle would
be final and satisfactory; but neither can I say, that any plan even con-
taining the principle of the resolution of 1835 would now he final and
satisfactory to the people of Ireland.—(Loud cheers and cries of " oh l")
That, Sir, is the consequence of the change of circumstances.—(Cheers.)
Such is ever the course in all matters of this kind.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) When Mr. Burke first proposed measures of concilia-
tion towards America, he proposed as a condition that the
supremacy of this country should be acknowledged. But those mea.
surer were not adopted ; and he afterwards proposed plans in which the
question of supremacy was given up, and when he was taunted with
having abandoned that important point, he in justification pleaded a
change of circumstances. Again Mr. Canning proposed different plans
fur Catholic emancipation containing securities, but he afterwards was
an eager advocate of a plan containing no such securities. When he
too, was reminded of his former propositions, what answer did he give?
He said in this place, " I will not be a security grinder all my life;"
and he added, " Circumstances have changed, and I see no advantage
in proposing securities which now are inappropriate." So, sir, I also
Must say that I do not conceive it would any part of our duty as a Go-
vernment to propose as a portion of a measure with respect to tithes in
Ireland the imposition of a tax upon the clergy, according to the propo.
sition of the Archbishops of Armagh and Cashel, if it met with very
great oppositioon on one side of the House, and if to the people of
Ireland it did not give satisfaction. But, sir, with regard to the
great principle that it is just and fitting that the Church of Ireland
should be obliged to contribute to the education of all classes of
the people, without distinction of sect or persuasion, upon that
great principle my opinion is unchanged.—(Great cheering, and hear.)
I think it is ris'atter of justice to the people of Ireland, and neither by
My speech nor my void will I deny it.—(Renewed cheers.) The at-
tempt, then, of the Hon. Baroat tonight is in the first place to in.
duce this House to reverse the propositimi which was agreed to by
the late Parliament, and to abandon the principle which that Parliament
deliberately laid down. Now I, believing that principle to be a just
one, cannot consent to that reversal.—(Cheers.) His'next attempt, and
an obnoxious attempt it is, is by means of a resolution to this House
to affix some stigma upon us, her Majesty's Government—a resolution
declaring that whoever else may be able to carry the tithe resolutions
into effect, it is impossible that in our hands that duty should fall.—
(Cheers.) Now, Sir, 1 resist the proposition of the Hon. Baronet, be-
cause it involves the reversal of a resolution which contains a principle
I hold to be a just one, and also because it is a proposition implying a
stigma upon us which I will not consent to bear.—(Great cheering.) But,
In my opinion, the proposition of the Hon. Baronet goes much further.
—(Cheers.) I think that a proposition to rescind a resolution which,
sat the time it was adopted, gave great satisfaction to the people
of Ireland, and which they have always looked to as being con-
nectsad and identified with the principle of the present Administra.
tion in Ireland, is an attempt to go back to another and an opposition
course of policy—(Cries of " No, no," from the Opposition, and of
" Yes, yes," from the Ministerial benches)—a course of policy which
your legislation and your conduct as Houses of Parliament have con-
. demned.—(Cheers ) In treating of this part of the question I must ad-
vert to a topic which may not be entirely agreeable to some of the Gen-
tlemen opposite, but which I think is intimately connected with the
amendment now about to be proposed. Igo back, Sir, to the year 18'29.
No one more rejoieed than I did in that measure of justice and policy
which was sanctioned by the Parliament in that year. But it certainly
was accompanied by circumstances the most unfortunate that could
accompany a measure of feeling and conciliation. In the first place, after
having been refused year after year to the supplications and petitions of
. the people of Ireland, it was accomplished at a time when the Catholic
Association of Ireland had assumed the most menacing attitude, and
when many Members of this House, forming a very considerable mino-
rity, and which was at one time led by a Noble Lord opposite, the Mem-
ber for Buckinghamshire (the Marquis of Chan dos), would have said that
that it was a concession made to fear, and not inspired by a sense of jus.
tice.—(Hear.) The misfortune of that impression it the first place
Was, that those who had gained this victory in Ireland, not relying
upon the sense of this country in having obtained a triumph for them
thought that a repetition of the means by which they had succeeded,
that a return to a system of agitation, would gain for them any object
they might afterwards urge. The measure of Catholic emancipation
had another fault ; it was carried into effect by those who, till the too-
utent they proposed it, had led the people of England to believe that
they were the firmest opposers of any such measure.—(Hear, hear.)
The Prjme Minister, the Lord Chancellor, the Home Secretary—who
WAS the leader of this House—had one and all declared in the previous
session that an alteration in the laws regarding Catholics involved a fun-
damentalchange in the Protestant Constitution of the country, and
Would be accompanied with great danger to the State,—(Loud cheers on
both sides of the House.) When it was urged upon them that no ap.
prehension :of any such consequences bad been expressed in many
Places, their answer was, that the cry of danger to Church and state
had not been universally raised, because there was on the part
of the people a firm reliance that they would give the most
uncompromising resistance to any alteration of those laws. But,
in the next session of Parliament, con cession was made, and it
brought upon the Government which made it a host of invectives, a
series of the most violent denunciations and declamations, in which it
Was declared that the people of England had been deceived, that their
just expectations had been betrayed, and that those to whom they had
looked for support were still more dangerous (according to the expres.
sions of one Member of this House at that time) than the very Jesuits
they professed to abhor.—(Great cheering.) There was also this nth-
thief accompanying that act, that the people of this country, seeing this
Unexpected concession, under the guidance of the Noble Lord (the Mar-
quis of Chandos), who had not then such implicit confidence in the Right
Hon. Gentleman as he appears; to have at the present moment—(Laugh-
ter and cheers)—after supporting him with their petitions in a motion to
reject the third reading of the Bill. became exceedingly sensitive and

jealous as to any further proposals that might be made with regard to
the Roman Catholics of Ireland. Sir, we had to struggle with the diffi-
culties which have been incident to that measure.—(Hear, hear.) We
have had to struggle, first, with that agitation which called for the re.
Peal of the Union, and which we firmly opposed. We have had
to struggle against those disorders in Ireland to remedy which
Me had recourse to that eiolent and unconstitutional—but which we

thought -necessary—measure, the Coercion Bill. Sir, after this measure,
that expectation on that part of the people of Ireland that everything
WitS to be yielded because it was asked in some manner was checked,
and it at last subsided; but it did .not subside until the Members of the
Present Government had, by their measures and conduct, infused a feel-
ing of confidence into the minds of the people of Ireland that they should
have justice.—(Long-continued cheering.) Sir, the first resolution
carried by this House upon which that confidence was founded is the
resolution which it is now proposed to rescind. That was a resolution
stating, upon grounds, as we thought, unimpeachable, a regard for the
interests and a just consideration of the wishes and feelings of the
People of Ireland, and embodying the substance of their own petitions.
:r yob rescind that resolution you adopt another course of policy, and
it is now the question, What course of policy do you adopt ?"
(Hear, hear.) For an answer to that question I must look to those
who proposed the Catholic Emancipation Bill, and who proposed it
under the circumstances to which I have alluded. Have they, ac-
cording to the principles of that Bill, endeavoured to procure for the
people of Ireland those Advantages and that ,community of rights
and equality of privileges which it was the object of the Bill to ob.
taro for them ?—(Cheers.) What has been their, course with respect
to the Municipal Corporation Bill ? They deny corporate righte to
the people of Ireland because, as they assert, they are unfit to enjoy
them in common with the people of England and of Scotland.
What has been their conduct generally with regard to adminis-
tration in Ireland ?—(Loud cheers.) Why, they have formed a close
union with those who were the most- decided enemies of Catholic
Emancipation ; they have formed a close union with those who vio-
lently opposed that measure, and who declared that it was incon•
'latent with our Protestant Constitution, and who would have fain
Prohibited the Roman Catholics of Ireland for ever from enjoying
tns rights and privileges which Englishmen enjoy.---(Continued cheer.
ih
) Why, then, it is to that course of policy you must return—
(Hear, hear)—if you rescind this resolution.—(Hear, hear.) It is to a
course of policy which says, True it is the Catholic Emancipation
ct is passed, and cannot be revoked. It was passed against our
Will
It was passed in consequence of the circumstances which then
took place inspiring dread and terror to a great degree among those who
Were then the advisers of the. Crown. But although it cannot now be
repealed, this shall be done—it shall remain a dead letter on the statute. book, and except by having seats in Parliament, and except by the pri.
Iliege of taking the Roman Catholic oath at the table of this House, no
.„,
i"nan Catholic shall ever partake of the advantage of that measure
Which you have placed among the records of your statutes."—(Great
cheering.) Such, I say, would be the effect of your rescinding this re-
solution; such, indeed, is the openly expressed wish of many : nay,
some even go beyond that, and express a desire that the letter of that
Statute should be repealed.—(Hear.) But, Sir, there is still something
beyond this in the language which has been held with regard to the
People of Ireland. We ask for the people of Ireland a fair considera-
tion of their interests and equal justice, as it they were part of our own
comm,ru_ •
t and as if they lived in any part of the west, south, or east of
this island, The language that has been used, first by the Press, since by
rricuy Members of the Tory party, and lastly by a very conspicuous
cenve.'t to that party, of the justice and fairness of which towards the
People or Ireland, I will leave it to the House to judge,—(Hear, hear.)
I ant going to quote from a speech of a Honourable Baronet who lately,
having been, as it were, a deserter from the ranks of Reform, has not
been placed in any situation of trust and confidence, as deserters usually
are not, but has been sent abroad through the country as a kind of tra.
veiling courier—(Much laughter)—to expound the doctrines of the
Conservative party to the people of this land—to explain the principles
Which they wish to see established, and to obtain, by means of recruits
to these opinions, that majority in this House by which their policy
could be established.—(Cheers.) I will show you what he says of a por.
tion of the people of Ireland, consisting of six millions and a half—
(Loud cheering)—and what language he thinks fit to address to his
countrymen with respect to them. He says, "The people of Ire.
150 d, of whom Mr. O'Connell talked so much, were, he was
grieved to say the most miserable, ignorant, Popish, priest.
ridden populace,, and superstitious to a degree, of the inveteracy of
Which Englishmen could form no conception. When Mr. O'Con.
nell talked of the Irish, he left out of his consideration the Pro.
testants, comprising nearly all the property, intelligence, honest rode.
Pendence, and real importance of Ireland." As for the Catholic gen.
tlemen,
Ireland as for the Catholic merchants and Roman Catholic farmers of
, property, intelligence, honest independence, and real import.
'rice. did not belong to them. But there is a moral to this description;
it is not merely a description for the sake of informing his audience
what kind of people these Irish may be, but as one who has travelled in
these parts. For be says further—" The Irish boasted of coming froere
Carthage, and certainly they were Tyrian in one respect ; they wm
deuble.tongued. The Irish were in many respects the antipodes to the
English, and it was absurd to propose that they should have the power
establishing Popish municipal corporations in Ireland." There is, I
"Y, a moral in all this. You are to pour out every term of abuse
,ui)°n the People of Ireland ; you are to designate them as being
ignorant is„,;(111, Priest.ridslen, and superstitious; you are to describe
them
as mei,. of no property, of no intelligence, of no importance
In the country, as coni:utred with the Protestants, and all this you
are you to do in order that ynu may be enabled to deny to them their
fair demands and be enabled to say to them—" Whatever the people
England and Scotland may have, you are unworthy of Corporations
-You must never look to be treated as equal to Englishmen, or have in.
`rusted to you the franchise of seltgoveremeat ; you are A superstitious
herd, and far below our consideration to legislate about.'—(Much cheer-
ing.) That is the policy which is put forth by those who endeaveur to
obtain the assent of the people of England to rescinding these resolu.
°,,'Lui•—(Cheers.) Sir, as frequent allusion has been made to a quota
ii introduced by me on a former occasion, I will venture again to
allude
to it, and to allude also to that part of it which has always been,
carefully overlooked. In the course of a discussion in this House I re.
'er:" to certain words used by Mr. Fox; I did not quote the words
l
tletnsalves, but gave the purport of them. It was a passage in which
Jr.
Fox Said that if you concede and find that the concession is not
iheient you ought to concede again, and endeavour to please the people
°f Ireland. J referred to these expressions as having fallen from Mr.
Fox as a prelude to the weeds I was about to quote. Had they
irordnt.he words of any great orator of antiquity, ;:ad they been the_
of Demothenes, or of Cicero, 110 doubt a fair ii;!erpretation
would
~ have been given to them, and it would have been said, "These
are the words of an orator ; this is his warm and fervent manner of
.4,'„'lng utterance to his desire that the wishes and feelings of the people
:iteen,rl eland sh mid be consulted." But, while -these expressions have
. carefully noted and quoted over and over again, yet the words
2.13, e
h I really quoted from Mr. Fox himself, and to which they were
introductory have, cx ?mt./ore cautela, been omitted.—(Hear,
mar.) Mr. roxcaid •—:" My wish is, that the whole people of Ireland

should have the same principles, the same system, the same operation
of Government ; and, though it may be a subordinate consideration, that
all classes should have an equal chance of emolument: in other words,
I would have the whole Irish Government reguLted by Irish notion=
and Irish prejudices; and I firmly believe, according to another Irish
expression, the more she is under the Irish Government, the more will
she be bound to English interests." The whole meaning of these
words, and particularly the beginning of the passage, is, that the same
operation of Government should be extended to all classes of her
Majesty's subjects, whatever may be their creed—that a Protestant
Sheriff should not be appointed and a Roman Catholic be excluded eot
the sake of getting unjust' juries—that there should be no partiality in
granting the franchise, so that municipal power should be monopolised
by Protestants and refused to Roman Catholics—that, with regard to
offices and emoluments, the profession of the Roman Catholic faith or
of the Presbyterian faith should be no bar cn the part of any man to his
possessing a civil qualification.—(Cheets.) These were the enlarged
principles upon which Mr. Fox proceeded. They are principles which
have been since sanctioned in great part by the Legislature, and they
are the principles upon which the administration of Ireland has
proceeded. And, Sir, let me tell you that I believe these prin-
ciples to be not only just, to be not only politic, but I believe that
they are not only safe principles on which the Government of this
country can proceed.—(Great cheering.) You have deprived your.
selves of the means—whether it would have been wise or not lo
have retained them--of keeping the Roman Catholics in that de-
graded condition in which an Honourable Baronet has stated them
to be.—(Hear, hear, hear.) They must have wealth—they must have
importance—they must gain professional honour—they must acquire
from day to day, as Ireland makes progress in trade and agriculture,
more and more importance, they are in number six millions and a half,
they are in influence and intelligence daily increasing; and I tell you
it is not safe to use these people with contumely and contempt—(pro-
tracted cheers)—to foster in them feelings of alienation, and to think
that you can maintain the empire of this country in the same state in
which it has been in former days upheld.—(Renewed cheers.) I have
recently seen a quotation, a part of which ran thus :—discordia snazimx
res delabuntur —(Hear, jsear, and a laugh.) 'net maxim may be ape
plicable not only to a party but to an empire.—(Cheers.) If you will
stand together with Ireland, if you will make Ireland the strength of
your strength, a part of your united body, then, indeed, with respect
to any convulsions that may take place, with respect to any dangers that
may threaten you, you may have the power to defeat and overcome
them ; but if you divide that strength, and have three-fourths of the
people of Ireland against you, and then have an insurrection in
your colonies, or be threatened with danger from foreign powers,
your means of defence, I say, are crippled, and your power
for future exertions greatly impaired.—(Cheers.) You can no longer
keep the people of Ireland subject to your sway as if they were a low, a
vile, and an alien race. You cannot hope to maintain an empire on
these conditions.—(Cheers.) It is therefore on these opposite princi.
pies that I think the contest will have to be maintained. If the Hon
Baronet should succeed in his proposition, I do consider that it will in
effect be reversing the policy •n which you have, during the present ad_
ministration proceeded. It will be proclaiming to the whole people of
Ireland—and they must expect it—that even in the rudest and harshest
mode the Government must be maintained.—(Cries of " no," from the
Opposition, and of " yes," and cheers from the Ministerial benches.)
You must be prepared to avow this to them.—(Cheers) You cannot say
at once that they are ignorant, priest-ridden, superstitious, and governed
by a desire to subvert the Protestant Constitution, and that you neverthe-
less have confidence in them.—(Hear, hear.) You must do one thing or
other; you must either say with me,that they are tit to be confided in—
you must say, " We do confide in them, we join with them heart and hand
as part of the empire," or you must on the other hand say, " You are
unfit to be confided in, you are unfit to be trusted ; and our utmost
means will he used to keep power in our own hands, and place none
in authority in Ireland but those who belong to that party most adverse
to the majority of the people." You must say for the future that you
repent the line of policy you have hitherto adopted, and that these harsh
means are those upon which you rely for maintaining your power.—
(Cheers.) I entertain the strongest opinion of the propriety and jus-
tice of the course which the majority of this House has hitherto pur-
sued, and I call upon this House, as it values the peace of Ireland, and
as it values the strength of the empire. to go with me into the care-
ful consideration of this question, and to reject the proposition which
the Hon. Baronet will make. I move, Sir, that you do now leave the
Chair.—(Loud cheers.)
The clerk at the table then read the following resolutions from the
Journals of the House :

" That any surplus which may remain, after fully providing for the
spiritual instruction of the members of the Established Church in Ire-
land, ought to be applied locally to the moral and religious education—.
(Ministerial cheers)—of the people, without distinction of sect or cell-
gious persuasion.
" That no measure upon the subject of tithes in Ireland can lead to a
satisfactory and final adjustmeut which does not embcdy the principle
contained in the foregoing resolution."
Sir T. D. ACL AND rose and said.—lf by the simple proposition of
rescinding the words of a resolution, to which, from the first time he
heard them, he had all along entertained a strong objection, he sup-
posed himself to be instrumental in the slightest degree to the main-
tenance or support of a harsh mode of Government to that part of the
United Kingdom, which, for years past, had been considered by him,
and which, for years to come, would be anxiously considered as the
most interesting part of the community, he would, indeed, shrink from
the task he had undertaken—(Cheers)—a task for which he felt himself
most unfitted and almost utterly unable to do justice to, and which he
certainly would not/lave undertaken if he thought that it involved an
examination or a general consideration of the policy to be pursued tO.
wards Ireland, and which he would far less have performed if it im-
plied anything harsh or unkind towards her—(Cheers.) There were
many things in the situation in which he found himself placed, in
bringing forward such a motion, which obliged him to request the kind
consideration of the House while he addressed to them a few words in
support of his proposition. The first fallacy which struck him was
the last which fell from the Noble Lord, that it was possible, by merely
rescinding the resolutions of 1635, to commence a harsh course of
treatment towards Ireland. He simply sought by his motion to main-
tain the long-established right of property in the Established Church—
(Cheers)—and he scarcely thought, notwithstanding what had fallen
from the Noble Lord, that the maintenance of the Church was incon.
sistent with the mild and paternal government of Ireland, for a desire
for which he gave the Noble Lord full credit, whilst he considered that
the same feeling actuated many who were opposed to that Noble Lord,
and who were anxious that such mild principles should be applied to the
government of that country.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had
charged him from the very outset with having no better reason for the
present motion than an intention to foment political differences, sad to
prevent the dispassionate settlement of this question.—(Hear, hear.)
He was sure that it was not his intention to foment political differences,
and that, so far from preventing the dispassionate settlement of this
question, he believed that his proposal was the only mode by which such
a settlement could be arrived at.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
seemed to imagine that the course which he (Sir T. D. Acland) was then
taking must have been suggested by the distinguished prelate who
was his diocesan, but perhaps the Noble Lord's recollection would
serve him a little further. If it could, the Noble Lord might
recollect the time when the county of Devon lost as its representative
one to whom for his talents and personal character there was not only no
objection, but for which many of his constituents rightly conceived, and
in this opinion he concurred, that they had reason to be proud, but the
real reason for whose loss was the resolution which he had successfully
carried in that House.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord asked for no benefit
of clergy then—(Laughter)—and he tested- the public opinion, which
he (Sir T. D. Arland) then shared with many others, and .which was
now participated in by a large and increasing portion of the public, and
which opinion was unequivocally expressed, that they entertained a
great aversion to carry reform in favour of others, so far as to resider
insecure the prOperty of the Church, for no property mounted higher
in its origin than the property of the Established Church in
England and Ireland.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But the Noble Lord
had asked, for another reason, why he had interposed his motion ; and
he would answer the Noble Lord by giving him an example to which he
could not object. He (Sir T. D. Acland) believed that in the motion
which he should make he was following most strigtlx .the course
taken by the Noble Lord. himself when he brought forward his reso.
lutions ; and why, what was a good reason when resolutions were
forced upon the House was a bad course when those resolutions were to
be removed, he had yet to learn.—(Cheers.) He thought also, if be
was not much mistaken, that the Noble Lord interposed his resolutions,
that he brought them forward as abstract propositions, though on that
occasion they were not quite so abstract in their nature as might be
supposed, but were practical enough.— (Hear, hear.) He was well
aware that various Tithe Bills had been introduced under different
Governments, but also by the same Government in successive sessions.
He was not, however, stating far from the truth when he said that the
Right Hon. Baronet at that time the head of the Government, the
Honourable Member for Tamworth, was then engaged in the same
office for which the Noble Lord now claimed credit—credit which
would be justly due to him if he could only carry out his proposition,
by enabling them (the Opposition) to accept the hand of peace which
he offered.—'-(Loud cheers.) At that time he was not a Member of
the' House, and he could not, therefore, state what the purpose of the
Noble Lord was in bringing forward those resolutions; but he knew their
effects, and one effect was, to remove from office the Ministry which
the Noble Lord opposed--an effect which was entirely distinct from
his (Sir T. D. Acland's) present intentions--and to put a stop, not only
for that session, to the Tithe Bill itself, but the whole of those Irish
measures which had been introduced by the Hon. and Gallant Officer
(Sir H. Hardinge) the Secretary for Ireland at that time, and who had
made great efforts to accommodate the Bill to the general feeling of that
House and of the country. It was true that in the opinion of the House
the Bill was bad, because it did not attempt what, before the Noble Lord
had broached it, was a proposition of the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin ; it was true that, in the opinion of the Noble Lord, the
Bill was wanting in something to fill up that deficiency, and that one
advantageous something was what would not be acceded to on that (the
Opposition) side of the House. If, therefore, he (Sir T. D. Acland)
had unwittingly fallen into the discussion of any objects which might
give rise to temporary anger, and which, according to the'Noble Lord,
had already created an angry debate, it was no fault of his ; and he
hoped that the debate would have no more evil in it, than was to
be found in the disagreeable quality of the Noble Lord's own speech.
—(Loud cheering and laughter.) But with repect to their operation
on the property of the Church, he had still more serious ground of
charge against the resolutions; and here again he proposed and was
Most happy to shelter himself against the Noble Lord's own accusation
by the Noble Lord's own reasons, assigned for his own resolutions on
their introduction in March and April, 1835. When he asked the
House to rescind those resolutions he was naturally anxious to see the
argnmcnts and the reasons by which they were supported when adopted
by the House ; and lie had not gone far in the Noble Lord's speech when
he found what was intended for a justification, the benefit of which the
Noble I.ord then claimed entirely for himself, but which he (Sir T. D.
Acland) hoped that the Noble Lord would not refuse to extend to him.
The Noble Lord might say that his words applied only to the first re-
solution, but then the first resolution touched only the propel ty of the
Church, to which he objected. The Noble Lord had said, "If the
House be determined to confine the revenues of the Church to purposes
strictly ecclesiastical, it Is better for that determination to be declared;
but if the House is not of that opinion, it is certainly of no use for us
to be passing through the different stages of the Bills for the commuta-
tion of Tithes."—(Cheeers from the Opposition.) The Noble Lord
continued, " We ought not, in my opinion, to proceed with that Bill
while that great question is unsettled—while it is yet unknown
whether the Ministers anti the House of Commons agree as to the
question, or at variance upon it." Now he, (Sir T. D. Acland)
thought that this contained a full justification for the course which he
had pursued, and he thought that this consideration which operated
with the Noble Lord was, niutatis mutandi.v, a good consideration for
him (Sir T. D. Acland) to adopt. He frankly confessed that, in com-
mon with many others, in common especially with those who were
deeply interested in this question, the prelates and dignitaries of the
Church, 11.11,0 thought that in the present resolutions of the Noble
Lord there lurked his old enemy the appropriation clause, but he con-
fessed that on a more careful consideration of those resolutions, coupling
them also with the speech of the Noble Lord that night, he did not find
any direct sense which rendered it impossible
statement that the Principle O
he f the appropriation clause was in ex-
press terms involved in them—(Cheers) ;for him to enter into a
was not sure that it was
there at all—(Hear, hear); but he was sure that he was not singular
in the feeling that if, by the best ability and casuistry the resolutions
had been drawn, there could have been no more effectual mystifica-
tion of the Noble Lord's intention—(Cheers)—of keeping the House
to the last moment in ignorance, whether the Noble Lord would
shit:: by or enforce, either now or hereafter, the principle agaii st
of them (the opposition) were opposed. He trusted
~.a exonerate him from the charge of haVice
brought forward this motion with ss view suggested by the No's
e
Lord,
Nod
and 9
embarrass the settlement of the question.
and of having endeavoured t• spread ~,;:nsion through the
country,
to the Noble Lord's resolutions, and his intention had been, and was,
to
reverse, if possible, the principle involved in them—(Cheers)—to aseer-
- pleetea
Ain whether the present Fulittmtmt felt on this sweet the same as the
_ _ s

last. Ile had often heard of the great inconvenience of resorting to
abstract resolutions, when it was not known to what they might lead,
and which might open a door through which they could not tell what
company would afterwards creep in ; and he did not think that the No-
ble Lord, when he passed these resolutions, and changed the policy of
the Government, knew that he was raising against himself a mass of dif-
ficulties which he fondly thought he hsd allayed. Three years since
these resolutions were to contain the sole cure for the evils of the Irish
Tithe system, and the Noble Lord declared that the only final and sat is_
factory adjustment was to be foundin the principle of making the pro.
party of the Es'ablished Church serve the purposes of the Stale. And
during the last three years what progress had been made ? Aluch of
the time of the last Parliament had been occupied In fighting this
question again and again, and in bringing the two Houses of Parlia-
ment into inconvenient collision, without any advantage having been
derived from their legislative endeavours. Why was this ? The Noble
Lord had asked him whether he recollected a resolution which had
been passed in that House, and which had not since been acted upon,
" that it was expedient that provision should be made by law for the
Roman Catholic clergy exercising their religious functions in Ireland ?"
He knew why the Noble Lord asked that question. He supported that
resolution, but he had not voted money out of one man's pockets to put
it into another's. He slid not now repent having voted for that resolu
Lion, and he might take the same course to excuse himself as the Noble
Lord had done; he had the same right to study the "inelinatio tem-
pJrunr," but he supported it only as the basis of a Bill to be introduced
at that time, but he did not support it as a dictatorial resolution to re_
main after that time.—(Cheers.) He objected to the appropriation
clause; he would resist it wherever he found it, and in whatever place
he thought that it lurked he would drag it out ; and whatever the in.
tention of the Noble Lord might be, however this principle may be kept
out of sight and not show itself, lest it should interfere with the Noble
Lord's present possession of power—(Cheers)—however convenient such
a course might have been, he was glad that he had drawn from the
Noble Lord the distinct and manly acknowledgment; and though he
differed from the Noble Lord upon this subject, and dreaded his prin.
ciples, when pushed to their furthest extent by those who had not the
same discretion and controul over their feelings as the Noble Lord, yet
Le was glad that he knew that the Noble Lard thought that the best
mode of governing Ireland was to rob the Established Church of a cer-
tain portion of her property, which he was pleased now to call surplus-L.
(Cheers)—but which others might handle less delicately hereafter ; and
that the Irish people now knew that thesis was some one who would put
his hand into the pockets of the Church for them, and who told them
t hat the opposite policy was reviving the harshest mode of government._
(Cheers.) His first object, then, was to ascertain whether the opinion of
this Parliament was really the same as the last, that any surplus revenues
of the Church should be applied to the moral and religious education of
the people, without distinction of sect or religious persuasion—(Ministe-
rial cheers)—after providing for the increase in the number of members
of the Established Church.—(Renewed cheers) He regretted that too
many difficulties had been thro en in the way of education in Ire.
land; but he had nevertheless thought it right to bring forward
his motion, and he did it simply on the ground that it was unfair
to appropriate the property of the Church. The main object of these
resolutions was to connect, as far as two things could be connected by
mere words, this appropriation principle with the settlement of the ques-
tion relating to the collisions for tithes, which all urged as a grievance
which really affected the mind of the Irish peasant. But it was one
thing to regulate the method of the collection of the revenues of the
Church, and to which those who paid objected; in that object he was
fully willing to go along with the Noble Lord—he was quite willing to
redress every practical grievance—he had never been in Parliament
when the question was agitated, but he was not prejudiced on the sub-
ject of Municipal Corporations ; he was willing fairly to enter upon the
consideration of any measure to relieve any practical grievance, or to
remove any inconvenience which might be felt in that country; but he
was not willing to sacrifice other interests, and he would not attack
those institutions which slid not injure the people, and to which the feel-
ings of the people were not opposed till they were taught otherwise.
When he reduced his rent to his tenants he understood the practical
grievance which induced them to ask for a reduction ; but when the
money, whatever was its amount, once got into his coffers, what did it
signify to his tenant in what manner heshould apply it ? He called then,
without hesitation, upon the House to rescind the resolutions which
bound it. And here he had an advantage over the Noble Lord which he
did not otherwise possess, for it was somewhat curious that of the
quarters in the house from which a preposition should come to fetter the
freedom of discussion, it should be from the Noble Lord. New, all he
asked was to relieve the House from this fetter upon the free right of
discussion and determination. The shackle had been felt for three
years, and the sole reason why the Tithe question had not been settled
long since, was the difficulty placed on the House by the resolution,
without the incorporation of which it was declared that no proposition
would be maintained. The expression was more stringent : it said that
" no measure upon the subject of Tithes in Ireland could lead to a satis
factory and final adjustment which did not embody" the Noble Lord's
appropriation principle, and if this were not a limitation of the free-
dom of debate, at least it was a limitation of the freedom of ac-
tion —(Renewed cheers.) Ministers were acting on one plan, but
would the country not find the great difference there was between what
they said and what they did ? They were ashamed to acknowledge that
they kept up this principle only for party purposes, and that they no
longer acted up to the spirit of their own resolutions.—(Hear.) Were
they less ashamed of avowing than of acting upon them ? The
Noble Lord's present resolutions he did not impugn; he saw no in-
vincible reason way a good measure might not come out of them, always
excepting the appropriation principle : to that principle the Noble Lord
adhered, and though he saw no means of governing Ireland unless that
was maintained, yet he did not now think that it would make that final
and conclusive settlement to which he had accustomed the country to
look for the last few years. Be that, however, as it might, the Noble
Lord had a full right, in dealing with Ireland, to take the frank and
manly course of postponing a plan which checked the carrying of
measures of value. He (Sir T. D. Acland) did not complain of this ;
he rather praised the Noble Lord for laying aside the pride and tenacity
of party.—(Hear, hear.) The eourse which he (Sir T. D. Acland) pro-
posed was clear ; he was for a clear stage and no favour, and he did
not wish to leave that which might be used in future legislation, by the
Noble Lord or any other Member, to the grert disadvantage of those
who differed from him in opinion.---(Cheers.) He would conclude by
moving that " the resolutions which had been read should be re-
scinded."—(Cheers.) [We believe that the above is a tolerably ac-
curate report of the Hon. Baronet's observations, but he was fre-
quently so indistinct as to render it extremely difficult to catch the pur-
port of his remarks].
Several Hon. Members rose together ; but

Sir J. E. WILMOT was called upon by the Speaker. He said that
he had the greatest satisfaction in seconding the proposition of the Ho-
nourable Bat onet who had just sat down, and he must say that he was
of opinion most sincerely that the object which the Honourable Baronet
had in view was one which would be most useful to the Government and
the country at large, for its effect would be to rescind the resolutions
passed in 1835, which were calculated to destroy the peaet"of the coun-
try, and which operated as a mill-stone round the neck, not only of the
Government itself, but of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) They had seen
the necessity of some good judgment being employed on the subject of
the Church Establishment and the want of education, and they had
heard from the Noble Lord two years ago, and heard now, that the re-
solutions which had been proposed were intended to remedy the evils
which existed, and, besides, to improve the condition of the Esta-
blished Church in other respects. He did not think then, and he thought
now, that those resolutions were contrary to every principle of justice
that any of the funds of the Church should be taken from itself, and
that they should be given to those who were its enemies —(llear, and
loud cheers.) Therefore the motion of the Honourable Baronet was
one which was reasonable in itself, and one which he was bound
to sJpport. It might appear an anomaly to see him stand
there to support a resolution such as that proposed by the Honourable
Baronet, when it was considered that he had hitherto kept aloof from
all party shackles, and from doing or saying anything which might com-
promise his independence; but he begged leave to tell the Noble Lord
that he did not stand there on the recommendation of his diocesan, nor
to excite any angry debate, nor to defend himself from any reports or
statements which might be circulated in respect of him, nor did he de-
sire to defend himself from a union of Honourable Gentlemen who
differed in opinion with him—an impression which he thought came
from the Noble Lord with a very b grace.—(Hear, hear.) He had
made no close alliance with any party on this subject who had indulged
in the use of vituperative language—(Hear)—which, however violent it
might be, could have no ill effect on the Conservatives. He knew well
that the word Conservative was not at all agreeable to the Noble Lord
hear)—because he knew that he and other lion. and Right
Hon. Gentlemen had always endeavoured, when any question was
proposed on which that party was likely to succeed, to confound
Toryism with Conservatism.—(A laugh.) But there was no man in
his senses who saw the difference between Whiggism and Radicalism
who must not also sec the difference between Toryism and Conserva-
tism—in fact, there was the greatest possible differences. A Conner-
votive was a man who had left Toryism, and who desired to preserve
a constitutional and a rational Reform ; and a Radical was a man who
had adopted a particular line of proceeding with a view to obtaining
everything which was irrational and unconstitutional.—(Hear, hear.)
It was on these grounds that he stood, and on these he would stand
or fall---(Hear, hear)--alike whether it was in I GSB that he joined in
throwing a Catholic Monarch from the throne, or whether it was in
1838 that he stood forward to rescue the Crown from Catholic supre.
macy.—( Hear, hear.) _ _

. •
Sir CHARLES LEMON had always joined with those Hononourable
Members who had ♦oted in favour of the appropriation clause, and
should consider that he was bound to pursue the same line of conduct ;
but the question now was, whether they should have that as law
which had passed into oblivion—(Oh, oh, from the Opposition)—and
whether the system which had before been advocated should be re-
vived in order that the proposition for its adoption might be once more
negatived. With all that had fallen from the Hon. Baronet opposite,
the mover of the resolution, he fully concurred; bnt he saw no reason
why the Honourable Baronet should not also agree with him that, as
this measure met with his approbation, he should not turn round and
look only to that which had passed.—(Hear, hear.) He was under the
necessity of voting in opposition to the resolution of the Honourable
Baronet.

Mr. COLQUHOUN was fully impressed with the importance of the
subject, and would contend that the attention of the House was be-
spoke by the fact of the appropriation clause having never been intro.
duced into any of the measui es hitherto brought forward by the Go-
vernment. He would ask, then, was it not worth while for the House
to lookback, and to rescind those resolutions which had passed in favour
of a plan which had never been adopted ?—(Hear, hear.) It was re-
markable that the Noble Lord, who now stated it to be of no
import-
ance, had told the House in 1831 that no plan could be final and satis-
factory which did not contain an appropriation clause. Would the
House allow him to call their attention to the confirmation of this
principle since that year ? It was very well for Hon. Gentlemen to say
it was of no importance, but be would call their attention to the real

state of the Irish Church, and he would point out the object of the leading
supporters of the Church of Ireland, who were referred to by the Govern-
ment for the purpose of procuring a settlement of the question. The
Mon. and Learned Member for Dublin, and the Hon. and Learned
Member for Tipperary, who were the most important individual:
in the representation of the popular party in Ireland, had told them
that taking off forty per cent. would not secure peace.
The Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin had said that he supported the mea-
sure already brought forward, not as giving the Irish all they wanted,
but as giving them part ; and he had again said in 1834, that he de-
manded three-fifths only because he expected that he must get the re-
mainder at some future time. He would point out a more important
statement to show the real object of the two Honourable and Learned
Members to whom he referred. In January, 1836, the Honourable
and Learned Member for Dublin said that the Government had the
duties of seven centuries to perform, not the least part of which was
to secure the abolition of a system by which seven millions of peopla
were compelled to pay for the support of the Clergy to whose doctrines
they ware opposed.—(Hear, hear.) It was clear, then, that his object
was not the reduction only of the fillies or the appropriation of a part
only, bat he was striving to secure the complete removal and extirpa-
tion of the system.—(Hear.) For his own part, if it could be shown that
the ap,,ropriation clause had the slightest tendency to produce peace in
Ireland, he would consent to its standing in any measure which might
be brooght forward; but if he could satisfy every candid man that
the plan proposed by the Government in 1635 had no tendency to pro-
duce that most desirable effect, but that, on the contrary, it would lead
to the wide dissemination of discoid, he was sure the House would
not consent to adopt the advice which had been given to them by the
Noble Lord The Hon. and Learned Member, to whose speeches and
writings he had already referred, had again, in stating his views and
opinions in reference to this subject, said that no man should be com-
pelled to pay for the support of a Church, of which he was not a mem.
her, and, therefore, that no settlement of the question of tithq,! CQUIti
be arrived at which was likely to givO gottdagthot to ilia peOplo of
Ireland which was not founded on the principle of the total extinction
of tithes in that country. Now, if these principles wero to be 44;1d
upen, the effect of which would be nothing less than the fMeillilatiml
of the Protestant
Phi4TO In Ireland. 44,htifil wa§ to be no peace, 60
1114T9n§i°11 4044011 ;0 ien as the i4W regl4i!led tjiat one WON