The Sun.
London, England, 1853-03-19 00:00:00

succession f such property, would they not be enabled- to •
change the succession of the Crown ? Why, they might
come to arc 'solution of suspending in the colony the Habeas
Corpus Act —to repeal trial by jury. (Hear, hear.) On
the prindi Os of self-government this right must be
conceded. The noble lord said that this bill provided for
the preserve .tion of the life interest of those persons whose
property wt is now affected. In his (Sir R. H. Inglis's)
estimation, that provision was only an aggravation of the
wrong don, 3—(hear)—for it assumed that the parties pro-
testing pga hist the measure had only a pounds, shillings,
and pence interest in the matter. (Hear, hear.) The
question is ras one of Protestant faith, not of a paltry
amount dolled out to the ministers of religion. It was the
duty of the, British Parliament to support the capitol on
which resited that Protestant faith. (Hear, hear.) He
should vole upon this occasion as he had done heretofore,
only with, a deeper sense of the injustice of the measure,
which was contrary to the original bill of the noble lord.
The present bill he believed to be at variance with the
pledged faith of the Crown and the Canadian Parliament,
and to be hostile to that connection between the mother
Country and the colony which it was so desirable to main-
tain. (Cheers.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON was of opinion that the raising of
this new issue would much enlighten and instruct the
country as to the real scope and character of the present
measure. He was glad to see homage paid to truth, how-
ever unconsciously that homage might be rendered.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) But he must, at the same
time, say that the objections urged against the scope and
nature of this bill had been met by vague generalities. It
was the details of this bill which he (Sir J. Pakington)had
discussed, not its principle. The noble lord the member
for the City of London had observed that these clergy re-
serves in Canada produced neither wheat, barley, nor oats,
but were fruitful only in strife and disunion. But what
had that to do with the question ? (Hear.) The noble
lord confessed that the words of the first clause were not
quite clear or intelligible, and that they must be amended
on the report. The words of the noble lord, however,
were distinctly at variance with the statement of the
right honourable baronet (Sir W. Molesworth) and the
hon. gentleman (Mr. F. Peel). Those gentlemen said
the object of the bill was to place the Roman Ca-
tholic and the Protestant endowments on the same
footing. The noble lord said quite the reverse ; that they
were going to strip the Protestants of those rights which
previous acts of Parliament had given them. This bill he
(Sir J. Pakington) contended was introduced without its
framers being aware of its details, or was brought in under
false pretences. (Hear, hear.) All mystery in this respect
was now at an end. (Hear, hear.) The house were now
informed that the Roman Catholics were to have their
rights respected, but not the Protestants, and the country
would have an opportunity of forming a judgment upon
that assertion. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN said the question had been asked why
this bill dealt only with clergy reserves ? The answer was
this—the Canadian Legislature had limited themselves to a
complaint of a particular grievance, and it was this parti-
cular grievance which the bill proposed to redress. He
complained that under cover of a complaint as to a parti-
cular clause it was dexterously attempted to re-open a dis-
cussion on the principle of the measure.
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 2,

Sir F. THESIGER drew attention to the words of the
clause, which were to the effect that it should not be law-
ful for the colonial legislature to annul or reduce any exist-
ing stipends of the clergy of the Church of England or
Scotland (save and except where the faith of the Crown
had been pledged). Now, were the words in this paren-
thesis intended to be merely explanatory, or were they in-
serted as a qualification ? He confessed that, in his mind,
they only raised doubt and confusion.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that the words in
the parenthesis were a transcript of words in a previous
statute, 3d and 4th Vic., q. 38.
Mr. NAPIER wished to know whether these words were
meant to assert that there were-any grants to the preser-
vation of which the faith of the Crown had been pledged ?
Now, he contended that the whole of this property was pro-
perty to which the faith of the Crown had been pledged.
He really was utterly at a loss to understand the meaning
of the words in the parenthesis. For he could not see how
grants to the Church could be dealt with as if it were a
mere question of local rates.
Mr. ADDERLEY said that hon. gentlemen seemed to
regard these reserves as a specific endowment, which they
were not. These reserves were nothing more than a per-
petual appropriation to a varying body, exactly upon the
same footing as the endowment to Maynooth, which the
hon. and learned gentleman who had just sat down was
willing to meddle with. (Hear.) To illustrate his position
he would point to the Free Church of Scotland, to which
the faith of Parliament was not pledged.
Lord J. MANNERS would like very much to know
whether the Government were willing to accept the inter-
pretation of his hon. friend (Mr. Adderley) and were these
reserves to be placed on the same footing as the revenues
of the Free Church of Scotland ? It was, therefore, essen-
tial that there should be a distinct and authoritative decla-
ration as to the meaning of the clause.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was understood to explain
that the words which were so much commented upon were
especially introduced from a former act, with a view of
preserving intact the stipends of the clergy.
Sir F. THESIGER said, that there was every reason
why the words should have been introduced in a former
act. In one act the stipends were chargeable upon the
Consolidated Fund ; in the other they were treated as re-
serves.

Mr. WALPOLE could not imagine what use there was discussing the bill, if its clauses were not understood.
His lion. and learned friend had been told by the Govern-
ment, that by the insertion of the parenthesis the faith of
the Crown was pledged to certain things. Now-, two ques-
tions arose out of this :—First, what was that faith pledged
to ; secondly, how was it pledged ? Having himself gone
through all the various acts of Parliaments, from the 31st
Geo. 111. to the 3d and 4th Viet., cap. 78, and through the,
present bill, he could not see, neither did he think the com-
mittee saw, how the faith of the Crown was pledged to
these particular stipends, unless it was by the bill now
before them.

Sir F. THESIGER wished to point to the phraseology
of the clause. It was meant, as stated, to protect the sti-
pends and allowances which had been already assigned or
given to the clergy of the Church of England or Scotland,
or to any other religious denomination. Now, what he
wished his hon. and learned friend to state was, whether
there were any allowances or stipends given to any religi-
ous denomination to which the faith of Parliament was
not pledged. If that were so, he could understand the
meaning of the parenthesis, but otherwise he could not
understand the reason of words being introduced which
could only be regarded as mere surplusage.
Lord J. RUSSELL repeated the explanation which had
been given, that as they were professing to copy a former
act, the words were introduced from that act, and could
have no other effect than to pledge the faith of the Crown
in a more pointed manner.
After some further observations from Mr. HUME and
Mr. WALPOLE,
The clause was agreed to.
On the third clause being brought up,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was his intention to
move the omission of this clause. The question of the
clergy reserves had been for a long period a source of con-
tention in the province of Upper Canada. And so im-
pressed was Lord Sydenham with the mischief which the
discussion of the question would create, that he was most
anxious that it should be finally settled before the Act of
Union was carried into operation. He believed that Lord
Sydenham was fully justified in the opinion which he
entertained, and that the exasperation which prevailed
was so great; that if tb,e question had remained unde-
termined, the Act of Union between the two provinces
of Upper and Lower Canada would never have been
effected on terms likely to lead to a state of permanent
peace. That opinion, rightly or wrongly, was shared in
both by Lord Durham and himself when he held the seals
of the Colonial Office. Lord Durham, however, was
successful in procuring the passing a a bill which
prepared the way for the final settlement of the clergy
reserves, and he was in hopes that the Crown would have
been enabled to give its assent to that act. But, on con-
sultation with the law officers of the Crown, it was found
that the Imperial Parliament had exceeded its powers, and
that therefore the assent of the Crown could not be given
to that act. It became necessary, therefore, that he should
introduce into the House of Commons a bill as nearly as
possible in accordance with the terms of that which Lord
Sydenham had ascertained would be likely to satisfy the
provincial legislature. But, soon after the introduction of
the bill, it became apparent that, even should he be suc-
cessful in carrying it through the House of Commons,
it would never pass through the other House of Parliament.
He, therefore, felt a good deal embarrassed at the situation
of affairs, and he was greatly disheartened at finding that
so beneficial a work was likely to be marred from a differ-
ence of opinion between the two branches of the home
Legislature. At that period the late Sir Robert Peel, with
some of his political friends, endeavoured to frame the out-
line of an arrangement, with which it was thought that
the other house of Parliament might be satisfied. That
outline was communicated to him, and it was intimated
that if it was pioposed first in the House of Commons, it
might subsequently be expected to receive the support of
the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the other prelates who
generally concurred with Sir It. Peel. Upon these terms,
therefore, although he saw very clearly that it would not
satisfy the province of Upper Canada, and although it did
not meet his own views, he accepted that arrangement,
and he consented to introduce such amendments as might
insure the support of the Archbishop of Canterbury and
the other house of Parliament. Sir Robert Peel expressed
himself favourable to the measure, and when the divi-
sion care, t
• that N. here were only six votes against it, and
ay the Union Act and the Clergy Reserves
were carried at the same time. No doubt he had
expressed himself t
final settlement of too confidently with regard to the
the measure; but he had made no mis-
take in the arran
indeed, thrt ent he had then proposed. He be-
lieved,
colony could not havehteepurosperity and the loyalty of the
less the question of the excited to the same degree un-
of legislation. The clergyhouse reserves was made a matter
that was made in 1810 was different
aware that the settlement
different from that of the act
of 1791, because it did not
legislature to deal with those newer to the colonial
the disposition then made it oogi,rtvens• But whatever was
taentito control the pre-
sent Parliament or the Govern
endeavouring to
confer upon the legislature of Canada thne PC.wer of Baking
an entirely fresh arrangement 'upon the
subject
of the clauses the sum of 7,7001. was Secured to the
leLics.leerrgYe-
serves and a sum of 1,5801. to the Scottish
the Archbishop of Canterbury expressed his fear that but
un-
less some guarantee were given that the reserves.wouidsum the clergy might not receive the
amount to a certain
stipends they were then receiving, and a clause was intro-
duced that in case of any deficiency in the funds of the
clergy reserves, a collateral security should be given out of
the Co Hated Fund. He (Lord J. Russell) stated that
he thought that security would be a collateral one, that the
Church of England and the Church of Scotland should
always receive that amount. It struck him that they were
thereby placed in a somewhat different position with regard
to these from all the other sums paid out of the clergy
reserves. It was not a question with regard to which any
immediate difficulty could arise, because by the second
clause the legislature of Canada were bound to secure to
the clergy of the Church of England the sums they at pre-
sent received, during the lives of the parties receiving it.
The sum at present paid to the Church of England was
15,0001., and the sum to the Church of Scotland 10,000/. ;
so that it was evident for a considerable time to come there
was no likelihood of a resort to the guarantee. But with
regard to the future, should the legislature of Canada de-
cide that the clergy of the Church of England were not to
receive that sum, then the time would arrive when a de-
mand would be made upon a Consolidated Fund. That,
I.le thought, was a question of considerable difficulty and
wonlctr If the act of 1840 had remained in force there
be no fear that the Consolidated Fund would be
called upon. If they now endowed these sums in perpe-
tuity, there would Canada, becaiise be considerable discontent excited in
mentioned by the-it a proposition had not before been
ra" vernor-General in his dispatches to
Lord Grey, or
head a the. col • ree"antly to his noble friend at the
Colonial depart
aunt. seeing those difficul-

ties, and believing that the course at the present moment
would be the freest from objection, he proposed the omis-
sion of the third clause until they had had time to com-
municate with Canada. Although his noble friend the
Duke of Newcastle had been no party to the arrangement
of 1840, he felt the obligation that was imposed on him,
and Ins noble friend agreed that it would be better to write
to Lord Elgin, the Governor-General, and state to him the
difficulty of the case, and requesting him to lay the whole
case before the legislature of Canada, stating the wish of
the Government that it would make some provision that
would meet the justice of the case. He thought that course
would be the freest from objection as regarded all parties.
He did not think it would be wise at the present moment
to enact a clause in the bill proposing to get rid entirely of
that engagement of providing for any deficiency out of the
Consolidated Fund. After communicating with the Cana-
dian Legislature, Parliament would be better able to de-
cide on the whole case, and he felt confident it would de-
cide with justice, and at the same time take into considera-
tion the expectations that were entertained.
Mr. WALT, had listened to the statement of the noble
lord with surprise and commiseration. (Laughter.) The
noble lord in 1840, whatever might have been the nature of
the measure which he had himself introduced, was obliged
to receive a changeling and adopt it as his own. Although
his original conceptions might be fair, and honest, and good,
he was never able when they referred to the church to
carry them into effect. (Hear, hear.) In the present case
a bill had been introduced to give to the legislature of Ca-
nada the disposition of their clergy reserves. That bill
seemed to a considerable number of members on that side
of the house to embody the principles of self-government
for the colonies in all matters which affected their purely
local interests. The bill seemed to be clear and straightfor-
ward, and under that impression they had given the noble
lord their hearty and zealous support, in consequence of
which the second reading was carried by a majority of 83
votes. Ten days afterwards the noble lord gave the house
the first intimation of his intention to make any alterations
in the measure. That evening they had heard an explana-
tion of the circumstances which had induced him to make
that alteration ; and he (Mr. Miall) must confess that he
could not see anything in those circumstances which did not
apply when the bill was brought in. (Cheers.) When the
noble lord stated his intentions at the commencement of
the session, and when the Under-Secretary for the Colonies
gave an outline of the measure on its introduction and on
the second reading, it might have been perfectly fair, and
honest, and candid, to have stated that the bill was in-
tended to give effect to the principle of self-government in
the colonies, at some considerable expense to the English.
people. (Hear, hear.) The clause, as it stood, had refer-
ence to a contingent liability created by the Bth section of
the act of 1840. That liability they had never been called
upon to make good ; not a single farthing had been paid,
the proceeds of the clergy reserves having been amply suffi-
cient ; and, as the noble lord had well said, the guarantee
was a mere collaLeral security. It was proposed now to
give the Canadian Parliament power to secularise those
reserves, if they pleased ; and if they did that, the Conso-
lidated Fund was to become chargeable to the amount of
7,900/. for the clergy of the Church of England, and
1,5801. for the clergy of the Church of Scotland in perpe-
tuity. (Hear, hear.) That was to say, we were to pay a
certain amount of money to some power—the power that
seemed to bring so much pressure to bear upon the noble
lord—a sum which, being capitalised, would be equal to
300,0001. and upwards, in order that the Canadian Legis-
lature might deal as it pleased with its own affairs.
(Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman, the President of the
Board of Trade, had well observed the other night that
there was no interest that stood so much in need of protec-
tion as the Consolidated Fund. When any other interest
was assailed, those who had the guardianship of it were
always ready to repel all such attempts ; but whenever
those of the Church of England were in question, he ob-
served that the Consolidated Fund seemed to be a most ac-
cessible and convenient instrumentality. (Cheers.) He
was as willing as any one could be to make a considerable
sacrifice, in order that the Canadians might enjoy what he
thought they were well entitled to, the right of self-
government. (Hear, hear.) He would also increase that
sacrifice, in order that they might realise the object upon
which they had set their hearts—namely, to throw off that
incumbrance which had pressed, so long upon the infant
energies, preventing their natural development, fostering
an odious spirit of exclusiveness, and setting together by
the ears the teachers of different denominations. To get
rid of this incumbrance he would submit to a large sacri-
fice, but he did not think that the people of this country
should b© called on prospectively to sacrifice their hard
earnings, not to give free government to the Canadians,
but to satisfy the demands of some party in this country,
which did not make its appearance, but operated on the
mind of the Government in order to obtain compromises
such as was now proposed, just as Mr. Brown and Mr.
Coppock compromised election matters. (Hear.) He could
not see the object of leaving out this clause, unless it was
that whatever was done of justice to the Canadians was
obliged to be purchased. In continuing the guarantee, the
object of the noble lord could hardly be directed to the
question of religion in Canada. Lord Grey admitted that
the maintenance of religious institutions was a purely local
question, and if the people of Canada were not to be
trusted with that they could not be trusted at all. At all
events it was somewhat anomalous that we should be giv-
ing a perpetual guarantee to keep up a church in Canada
which they would not retain unless that was done --that is
to say, that the Government and the Church of England
were desirous that no sanction should be given to the vo-
luntary principle. That principle he (Mr. Miall) felt bound
always to defend when it was attacked, and.he put forward
a few facts relating to that principle as it existed in North
America, which might serve as a guide to show what it
might effect in Canada. The hon. gentleman here read the
following statement, drawn up from the religious statistics
of the United States :

" The number of churches or edifices for public divine wor-
ship in the United States is a fraction over 36,000, or one to
every 666 of the population. The average number that each
building will accommodate is 384 ; and if all the churches
should be filled at one time they would hold 13,849,896 per-
sons, considerably over one-half of the entire population-
-24,000,000. It has been calculated that not more than one-
half of any population can at the same time attend public
worship, and that if accommodation is provided to that ex-
tent, it is all that is required. Here, then, we have provi-
sion for nearly 2,000,000 beyond the estimated requirement
—that, too, in a country where the wide extent of territory
and scattered population militate against the success of volun-
taryism. So much for the actual provision of places of wor-
ship. The same return shows that the total value of church
property is 86,416,639 dollars, or (reduced to English money)
about 17,233,327/. In his statistical paper, read before the
British Organisation of the Evangelical Alliance, in August,
1850, Dr. Baird states that more than 3,000,0001. was raised
by the various denominations, in 1850, for ministerial in-
comes, religious and educational societies, and the erection,
&c., of churches and colleges. Far from these vast resources
for religious purposes being likely to diminish, he shows that
they have for many years past been increasing in a greater
ratio than the population. It is, therefore, now demonstrated
on the most incontestable evidence, that voluntaryism has
amply provided for the religious necessities of the United
States, without a farthing of public money being expended
for that object."

He might add, that in the United States, where there was
no State endowment for religion, religious intolerance was
almost unknown. (Hear, hear.) Sir Charles Lyell in his
account of his second visit to the United States said, " that
after the severe struggle for the presidency between Mr.
Clay and Mr. Polk, few Americans whom he met could
tell him to what denomination either of them belonged,
but he at last ascertained that one of them was an Episco-
palian, and the other a Presbyterian ; but that want of
knowledge did not arise from any indifference to religion
or want of regard for moral character, but it was clear that
in the choice of a first magistrate, their minds were occu-
pied by other considerations, and the separation of political
from religious feeling, though far from complete yet, was
one of the most healthy features of the working of the
American system. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Miall) could
not see why Canada should be less happy under the same
system. He intended to oppose the withdrawal of the
clause by the noble lord, because he did not see why a tax
should be saddled in perpetuity on the people of this
country in order that Canada should have the Church of
England, and he should take the sense of the house upon
the question. (Cheers.)
_ _

Mr. V. SMITH said he could not exaggerate the impor-
tance of the question. He was so axious for the passing of
the measure that he would be willing to make some sacrifice
to obtain that object ; for if they failed in passing the
present bill, he was afraid that they would never hear
again of the clergy reserves in that house. After the state-
ment made by the noble lord, he was at first disposed to
hesitate before they we ton with the bill. The noble lord
stated that the Duke of 'Newcastle had written out to the
colony to know whether the colonists would take on them-
selves the guarantee which was given by the measure of
1840. Now, until the answer of the colonists was received,
he (Mr. Smith) thought it would be imprudent for them
to strike out the clause. The guarantee simply amounted
to this—that in each year a certificate shall be given by the
registrar-general of the amount of the proceeds to be paid
to the several churches, and if it fell below a certain sum,
the charge shall be thrown on the Consolidated Fund. The
guarantee, which was formerly a contingency, would, if
the course proposed were adopted, be reduced to an abso-
lute certainty. He implored the house to take great care
as to the way they should deal with the Church of Eng-
land in the colonies. (Hear.) Hon. gentlemen should re-
collect when they spoke of the Roman Catholic Church as
an analogous case, that they were now 'dealing with the
Church of England alone, and the argument as to the Ro-
man Catholic Church had nothing whatever to do with the
present question. The guarantee appeared to him to apply
entirely to the distribution of the clergy reserves. If they
now withdrew the clause, he confessed he did not see why
the bill should have been introduced. They ought to be-
ware of placing the Church of England in such a position
as to be always a source of war in the colonies. He trusted
his noble friend would not insist on his withdrawal of the
clause, but would allow it to stand until the answer to the
letter of the Duke of Newcastle had arrived—or that he
would so amend the clause as to make the guarantee stand
exactly in the same position as it did before the present bill
was introduced. (Hear.)
Mr. ADDERLEY said that, while agreeing with what
had fallen from the right hon. gentleman who spoke last,
he did not think it would be wise to delay the measure
until they saw what would be the answer from the colony.
He believed that those who advocated a free Government
for Canada must believe that any Government that under-
took to subsidise our colonies would be pursuing the worst
line of policy that could be thought of, and that such a
course would inevitably break down. Any attempt made
to subsidise the churches of the colonies would in like man-
ner inevitably break down. He would ask those who were
anxious that the Church of England should flourish, whe-
ther, for the sake of the paltry sum of 7,700/. a year, they
ould be prepared to place the Church in such an odious
position as it at present stood in Canada. They had heard
that
the Church of England had received an undue share
of that which was originally intended to be more generally
r"l'id. They were passing an act which was calcu-
lated to remiDdve the odium which had been cast upon the
Church. D
maintained out of one suppose that this grant would be
not pass the measure
the Consolidated Fund? If they did
come a
second
ziiaurne as it stood, this question would be-
have an annual detatZth grant, upon which they would
It would form a new Maynooth
grievance for someczymber of the North Warwickshire
school to take up
Y (laughter)—for it was not
every one that could drawtt— fine distinctions which had been conceived by the honvm..eraand learned member for
the University of Dublin (Mr. lt seemed to him
to be a somewhat parallel case casewith the of Maynooth.
rethat the Did the noble lord for a moment conceive
Cana-
dian Parliament would take on itself the responsibility of
the guarantee ? The very suggestion he thousZi yed
the grace that would otherwise accompany the D
the act. (Hear, hear.) If the Canadian Parlilmasesnintgdoef-
clined to acknowledge such guarantee, he would ask the
noble lord what he would do . He would decidedly sun-
port the amendment of the hon. member for Rochdale.-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he I
could not help thinking that the hon. gentleman ho had
just addressed the house did not precisely understand the
position
of the question, as also the position of the house
and the vote which hon.