The Sun.
London, England, 1854-02-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY- EVENING, FEBRUARY 14, 1854

Total
I have stated the general provisions of the measure, I hope
not at too great length, but in such a way as to make it
understood by the house. I will not enter further into
any general considerations connected with the subject. It
is my belief that the measure will tend to correct defects
which, sooner or later, must be amended, and that, by
adding to the number of persons privileged to return mem-
bers to this house, we shall give a wider basis to our re-
presentation, and thereby contribute to the strength and
security of our constitution, and cause the people to feel
greater confidence in it. With these observations I ask
leave to bring in a bill to amend the laws relating to the
representation of the people in England Wales.
Mr. H. T. LIDDELL said, he rose thus early in the
debate, because the hon. member for Manchester thought
fit to open the proceedings of the evening by present-
ing a petition signed by some 3,000 names of the in-
habitants of Liverpool, imputing bribery and corrup-
tion to the freemen of that constituency. He (Mr. Liddell)
rejoiced that he had done so ; because, without any
violation of the rules of the house, he was enabled to
meet the charge at the earliest possible moment. (Hear,
hear.) He trusted the hon. member for Manchester
would take the first opportunity of making some specific
motion upon the requirements of that petition. He told
the hon. member that he (Mr. Liddell) was prepared to
fight the battle of the freemen of Liverpool, to vindicate
their character, and maintain their rights. He trusted
that the house would not be misled by the appear
ance of a bulky petition with 3,000 signatures, when he
reminded them that the population of Liverpool consisted,
of 500,000, with a constituency of about 17,000 electors on
the register. He rejoiced that the noble lord did not pro-
pose a bill of disfranchisement against any of the existing
freemen, though he might see reason to object to the future
disfranchisement of that class of voters. As regarded the
measure which the noble lord had sketched for the consi-
deration of the house, he could not help remarking
that the reference to the petition of the Friends of the
People had cut the ground from under his feet. The noble
lord read seriatim all the complaints contained in that cele-
brated document, and then declared that the causes of
every one of them had been removed by the Reform Act.
It was not his desire, nor was it the desire of those with
whom he acted, to add to the difficulties in which the
noble lord appeared to be prepared to plunge the country
by discussing at the present moment a subject of this ex-
citing nature. He hoped that the measure would not
reach a second reading, but that it would be postponed in
deference to the feelings and welfare of the country. The
noble lord had begun by stating that 19 boroughs, which
returned 29 members, were to be disfranchised. Was it
possible that the noble lord could proceed to a measure of
disfranchisement of that extent without provoking a most
painful discussion both on the part of friends and foes, or
could he possibly proceed to the prospective disfranchise-
ment of freemen without occasioning a vast amount of
painful and acrimonious discussion ? (Hear, hear.) In the
present House of Commons the noble lord know the sup-
port which he might anticipate in case of need : but if he
carried the bill which he had laid upon the table it would
almost involve the necessity of a dissolution of Parliament
during the summer or autumn ; and who could tell what
changes and vicissitudes might take place in the course of
a protracted war, or in what temper the people of Eng-
land might be at the time when tho dissolution took
place ? (Hear, hear.) The noble earl at the head
of the Government had stated in another place that the
hope of preserving peace need not yet be abandoned.
That hope, he feared, was shared by very few persons in
this country, and in whatever bosom it found a refuge it
must be a hope very near akin to despair. He certainly
could not share that hope, and, as he believed the country
to be nearly involved in a war which was likely to be
snore protracted in duration, and to be fraught with more
serious consequences than the noble lord seemed to antici-
pate, he conjured him once more to consider whether the
present was not a juncture at which such a measure ought
not to be pressed upon Parliament. Before he sat down
there was one point to which he wished to allude, upon
which he thought the house was entitled to some explana-
tion. During the discussion of the Reform Bill in the
Cabinet the resignation of the noble lord the Home Secre-
tary had been made known to the country. He begged to
assure the noble lord that, as no man upon the Treasury
bench possessed more the confidence of the country than
the noble lord, so no man in that house was prepared to
speak of him with more respect than he was ; but he
thought the noble lord owed it to is own character, and
to the satisfaction of the house and the country, now that
that the question of Parliamentary reform was brought
fairly under their notice, to give some explanation of that
retirement which, at a very moment of our domestic his-
tory, left this country for 12 days without a Home Secre-
tary. He hoped the noble lord knew that he was of suffi-
cient importance, and filled sufficient space in the estima-
tion of his countrymen, to render anything that he did
in a public matter the subject of remark, and deserving
such an explanation as the circumstance might seem to
demand. Upon that account he wished to ask the noble
Lord if he would condescend to inform the house
what were the circumstances in connection with the
Reform Bill which had led him to abandon the
helm which ho guided with so much vigour, and
leave the country at a moat critical period 12 clays without
a Secretary of State for the Home Department? (Hear.)
Mr. H. BAIL LIE asked whether the same principle
which had been laid down for England would also be ap-
plied
to Scotland, and whether all places which did not
contain 300 electors would be disfranchised ?
Mr. F. FRENCH asked the same question with reference
to Ireland, and also whether comities with populations
exceeding 100,000 were to have additional members, as in
England ?
Mr. ELLICE thought it rather hard that the noble lord
honest, independent,
have included all the freemen of this country in his
corruption. Since he had represented
teLsregetrouf general
ly independent, and incorruptible men,
the electors of Uoventry, in that house, now nearly 40
years, he defied the noble lord to say that' upon any occa-
sion had any charge of corruption been made against the
freemen portion of his constituents. There was one good
argument upon which it append to him that the right of
the freemen could be maintained. The house wished to

give the franchise to the best instructed of the working ; measure had been more mild, would hon. gentlemen
classes. The process by which the freemen of. Coventry opposite have supported it ? What did they settle to
gained their votes was by serving seven years to the same do with the noble lord's measure in 1852, which was
master in the same city. Unless their conduct was good, really thought notlworth discussing by the Liberal party ?
and their masters certified to that effect, they could not He perceived from the noble lord's proposal that several of
obtain their freedom ; and what better proof, he asked, the Whig boroughs, left untouched by the Reform
than such a servitude could they have of the fitness and Bill of 1831 and 1832, were proposed now to be disfrau-
qualifications of a man to exercise the elective franchise ? chised. It was said the Reform Bill of 1831 and
(Hear, hear.) This was not the time when they should 1832 was corrupt, because Caine was one of the bo-
take away one of the franchises of the workmen of this roughs left in by it, but now it was proposed to
country. They were just now engaged in a struggle for disfranchise Caine, as well as Richmond, in Yorkshire,
the maintenance of the value of their labour, and ho asked Arundel, and other Whig boroughs. This he thought was
them at such a time not to deprive them of the right of a fact speaking well for the intention of Government.
being represented in that house, especially when their fit- (Hear.) He hoped there would be no attempt to postpone
ness to be represented might favourably contrast with that the measure, but that Government would let it take its
of any other class in the community. (Hear.) chance in that house, and trust the rest to the people of
Mr. GEACH corroborated the views of his right hon. this country. He held in his hand a list of gentlemen
colleague with respect to the freemen of Coventry, and ex- who met at Lord Derby's in 1852, after the " little Reform
pressed his opinion that the system of freedoms provided a Bill" was introduced by the noble lord (Lord J. Russell).
class of voters of greater aggregate intelligence and political Upwards of 100 were present ; and he had now before him
knowledge than could be obtained in any other manner. a list of all their names. (A laugh.) He would not, how-
Colonel SIBTHORP hoped that the freemen of Lincoln ever, read the names, as the house was well euabled to
would treat with the same contempt that he did the un- guess who would be there—namely, the fiiends of the right
just, unnecessary, and unworthy observations of the noble hon. gentlemen who by some accident got into office the
lord. He wished that her Majesty's Ministers might be as year before last. (Laughter.) With regard to that list,
honest, upright, and straightforward as they were. (Hear, he would read a paragraph accompanying it—" At a meet-
hear, and a laugh.) Then we should have the Treasury ing held at Lord Derby's house yesterday, the policy to be
bench more pure, more to be relied on, and deserving of pursued by the Protectionists with respect to the Reform
greater confidence than it was at this moment. He had Bill was discussed, and it was unanimously determined to
known those freemen for years. He entertained the oppose the second reading of the bill." That was just
highest opinion of them, and he would not condescend, ob- what the other side proposed to do now, and the more so
jecting as he did to the bill almost altogether, to do more as they had now an impending war thrown into the scale
than to repeat his hope that the freemen of Lincoln would to assist them. (Laughter.) If they opposed the bill of
treat the unworthy stigma which the noble lord had 1852, of course they would oppose the larger bill now pro-
thought proper to place upon them with that contempt posed. (Laughter.) But all the noble lord (Lord J. Rus-
which he told the noble lord that he did. (Laughter.) sell) had to do was to convince the country he was in ear-
Colonel BLAIR wished to know if counties in Scotland nest, and to render the measure popular in the country
with a population of upwards of 100,000 would be allowed depended upon how wide the noble lord opened the door
an additional member? to the industrial classes of the community. (Cheers.) He
Sir B. HALL complained of the want of enfranchise- thought the noble lord had not opened that door wide
meat as regarded the metropolitan boroughs. (A laugh enough. The two years and a-half residence proposed by
from the Opposition.) The noble lord proposed to give an the noble lord would in some cases be in effect three years
additional member to the borough of Salford, and ho and a-half, inasmuch as a man might not take up his resi-
took—so far as he (Sir B. Hall) could understand—a popu- dente until just before the registration took place, and,
lation of 100,000 as the point about which he would give a consequently, his claim could not be considered until a
third member ; and on what principle was it, therefore, year had elapsed. It would be seen, then, that this
that he made the metropolitan boroughs an exception to clause would exclude a large number from the posses-
this rule? sion of the franchise. He approved of the proposal to
Mr. NEWDEGATE wished to know if the noble lord extend the number of metropolitan members, and he
, formed any calculation as to the number of each of the hoped the noble lord (Lord John Russell) would receive,
new constituencies? if he was in earnest, the support of the country. The noble
Mr. PHILLIMORE thought the project of the noble lord might rest assured that he must depend upon that
lord the member for the city of London as to the repro- support and upon the exertions of Government to give
sentation of minorities, was certainly a whimsical one, to effect to that justice to the working classes which he (Mr.
say the least of it, and he wished to know if the noble Buncombe) maintained had been much too long withheld.
lord would have any objection to apply the principle to (Cheers.)
the proceedings of that house, so that out of every three Mr. E. BALL could not allow the debate to close with-
measures the majority might carry two, and the minority out expressing his gratitude to the noble lord the member
one ? (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He certainly disagreed for London for his proposal to give the London University
with the noble lord's proposal to repeal the act which the right of being represented in the House of Commons.
obliged all persons accepting place to vacate their He thought the representation of the country could not
seats. The act, passed by Godolphin's Ministry, be better advanced than by conferring the franchise upon
was intended to provide against placemen having seats the educated portion of the community, and, on behalf of
in that house, and was described by Mr. Hallam as the University of London, he begged to thank the noble
being a most valuable and serviceable provision. (Hoar, lord for the privilege he proposed to confer upon it.
hear.) The noble lord must recollect that it was part of a Mr. HEYWOOD observed that in the county of Lan-
system, and, though it might produce great inconveniences caster the division of the 101. householders would about
at times, yet these were, without doubt, entirely balanced double the number of electors, and at the same time it
by its advantages. (Hear, hear.) would, of course, double the expense of elections, as twice
Mr. TUFNELL regretted that the bill contained no pro- the number of electors would have to be brought to the poll vision relating to the property qualification. He had ab- upon each occasion,
stained last year from bringing the subject before the house, Mr. MURROUGH complained that in the proposal of
hoping that it would be included in the anticipated mea- the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) no step was taken to dis-
sure of reform, a hope which was greatly strengthened by pense with the property qualification of members. After
the fact that, in the constitutions recently granted to the instancing the names of several illustrious statesmen and
colonies, we declare that persons qualified to be electors authors who had been members of that house in former
should be also qualified for representatives. As the noble years, he asked if there were not now, upon both sides of
lord, however, had not dealt with this point in his measure, the house, hon. members who had served their country
he now gave notice that he should himself, as early as pos- with ability to the public and honour to themselves, who,
Bible, ask for leave to bring in a bill on the subject, on the threshold of theirpolitical career, could by no chance
Mr. HUME said, that one great object which he had have possessed the property qualification ? The effect of
always had in view in promoting reform had been to bring the property qualification was frequently to unseat the
within the pale of the constitution a body of men who duly elected representative of the people, and to defraud a
hitherto, he thought, had been hardly treated—the higher constituency of its franchise and privileges. Without
class of artisans. This measure, however, so far as he saw dwelling upon the character of a law which required a man
at present, gave no opportunity of doing that. Considering to hold a seat in the House of Commons upon no better
how many of these artisans were obliged to go about from recommendation than the adequacy of his patrimony, he
place to place, often residing less than one year in a place, contended that the electors themselves were treated with
it was scarcely to be expected that a 6/. franchise, with two the grossest injustice by such a provision, inasmuch as
and a-half years' residence, would admit many of them ; they selected the man they deemed the best fitted to re-
but, had the noble lord fixed a 51. franchise, with one year's present them, and none but the most venal could form
residence, he would probably have given many of them an opinion of the adequacy of his means. In many cases
votes. He was greatly pleased with the noble lord for the property qualification acted in this way,—the man
having persevered with the measure at the present time ; who was chosen by the electors as the advocate of popular
for he was perfectly satisfied that the country was fully rights, after possessing his seat for a few weeks, found him-
capable of considering a measure of this sort calmly and self ousted by an election committee, while a man whose
deliberately, even under the pressure of an impending war. principles were disapproved by the electors, and who pos-
Of all parts of the measure he most approved of Schedule sensed neither their esteem nor respect, stepped into the
A. He hoped, however, that the house would never pass seat as their chosen representative. Unless the noble lord
that part of the bill which related to the representation of (Lord J. Russell) made a provision in the bill to remedy
the minority. All our institutions were grounded on the the defect of which he (Mr. Murrough) complained, he
11 preponderance of the majority, and such a principle as the should feel it his duty to propose the introduction of such
noble lord now sought to introduce was entirely new. a clause. Though it might be said that at present no agi-
He should also have much preferred that the noble tation was going forward upon this subject, he was con-
lord should have brought down the suffrage to one vinced that the people of this country would be greatly
universal standard—the municipal suffrage. In conclusion, disappointed unless it was brought forward, and he felt
he would ask the noble lord, whether he had made any that it would be playing a most dangerous game indeed to
calculation as to what would be the number of the elec- teach the people of England that they were to expect no-
toral body ? At present it was, in round numbers, about thing save that which resulted from a successful agitation.
900,000, and he wished to know whether it would be in- Mr. MAGUIRE thought that in one feature the bill pro-
creased or diminished. He would ask how it was that a Posed by the noble lord the member for London applied as
new member was to be given to Salford, while the Tower much to Ireland as to England, and he begged the attention
Hamlets, with a population of 500,000 was still to have of the house while he referred to it for a moment. The
but two ? feature in the scheme of the noble lord, to which he alluded
After a few words from Mr. CAYLEY, was sufficient to alarm both countries, but was most preg-
Mr. H. DRUMMOND said, it cannot be expected that nant with danger as regarded Ireland. He referred to the
I, who so much disliked the former Reform Bill, should repeal of that provision which compelled a member taking
look upon the present one with grateful eyes. That Re- office under Government to go before his constituents be-
form Bill was hailed as a revolutionary measure by every fore he could again enter Parliament. To show how the
man in the country who liked revolution, and it was re- repeal of that statute was fraught with danger even to Ire-
polled by every man who disliked revolution, and both of land, he alluded to a meeting at Dublin of 60 members Of
them alike called it honestly by that name. (Hear, hear, Parliament, elected by their constituents at great sacrifice, ,
from the Opposition.) I can find no fault with the noble who at that meeting made a solemn declaration binding
lord for pursuing the course upon which he then entered, themselves to a certain line of policy sanctioned by the
but I confess I am again somewhat surprised, as I was great mass of the Irish people. Since that period several'
last year, that, knowing how to interpret our own language, of those gentlemen had accepted office under Government,
those who support this measure hold speak of it under and on doing so, under the statute at present existing,
the character of a measure of " Conservative progress." they were compelled to vacate their seats and go before their
It is progress, undoubtedly ; progress in that revolutionary constituents for re-election. But if the messure proposed
measure which the noble lord. himself so stigmatised 23 by the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) passed, and the pro-
years ago. This is a measure which is entitled, I think, vision to which he referred existed no longer, what check to the same character. Now, air, not to call names with- would there be against corruption ? A hundred members
out stating clearly what I mean by the terms, I mean this, might bind themselves to a particular policy, but if the
—that you do sever, and did at that time sever, and are existing check against corruption ware done away with,
going on severing, property from power. (Hear, hear, every man of easy virtue would take advantage of it, sell
from the Opposition.) No matter by what means, no himself to the Government, and abandon his constituents.
matter what words you use, that severance is Socialism. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He considered that there
Whether it be wise in the noble lord to bring this measure could not be two characters more distinct than the inde-
on at this time I care not. Ido not believe it signifies at pendent member of Parliament and the servant of Govern
all whether you discuss it in a state of war or peace,—the meat, and he should do his utmost to oppose the repeal of
measure contains in itself that which must be sooner or what he believed to be a most sanitary check upon cor-
later destructive. It is of no use in the world speaking of motion and treachery.
it in ether language ;it is incense offered to that pa'rty The SPEAKER then put the question, and leave was
which for 21 years the noble lord has idolised, the party given to introduce both bills, which were accordingly read
which honestly, and without disguise, declares that its in- a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on the
tontion and hope is to establish shortly a democracy in this 13th of March.
country. (Loud cheers from the Opposition.) LAND FOR CHURCH BUILDING.
Mr. J. BALL thought that the provision in the bill Sir W. MOLESWORTH moved for, and obtained leave
which gave a vote to any man who had 501. in the savings to bring in a bill to facilitate the apportionment of the
bank would remedy some of the defects complained of by rent, when parts of lands on lease aro taken for the pur-
the hon member for Montrose as likely to arise from lim- poses of the Church Building Acts.
iting the franchise to 61. He hoped that this would be
made to include every kind of savings, and particularly CHARGE OF CORRUPTION AGAINST IRISH
assurances. He thought Ireland would have great reason MEMBERS.—COMMITTEE OF PRIVILEGES.
to complain if the same session which saw the application Mr. I. BUTT rose to move that the committee of privi-
of sound views of reform to England was allowed to pass leges, which the house, upon his motion, had decided to
without their being extended to Ireland, appoint, to consider certain allegations which had appeared
Lord J. RUSSELL—SeveraI members have asked me in the Times newspaper, should consist of 20 members. He
with respect to the measures to be introduced for Scotland was not aware whether he was to anticipate any opposition
and Ireland. All I can say is, that I will not attempt to to the nomination of the committee, and for the present
explain those measures at present, but that the same prin. would confine himself to a brief statement of the reasons
ciples will be applied generally to all the three countries, which had induced him to think that the number which
and that the number of members for Ireland will remain he had mentioned was that which he ought to propose.
what it is, while the number of members for Scotland will The house would remember that, when he brought for-
be three more than at present. With regard to any of ward his motion, ho had referred to a precedent of the
their provisions, I beg leave to decline answering any year 1834, as the only one which he could find to justify
questions at present ; the Chief Secretary for Ireland and the course proposed. (Hear, hear, hoar.) In a matter
the Lord Advocate will at the proper time submit the re- of this nature, involving such considerations as those which
spective measures for the consideration of the house. The were involved here, ho had thought it better to conform
hon. baronet the member for Marylebone has asked why to precedent as far
as possible. The resolutions, there-
there was not a greater addition to the number of the me- fore, which he had moved had been copied, word for
tropolitan members. Now, we propose to create Chelsea word, from the resolutions of 1831. And finding that the
and Kensington into a borough, to return two members, committee then nominated had consisted of twenty mem-
and really, sir, I think that will be sufficient addition to hers, that several distinguished members of the house had
the reetropoaan members. (Hear, hear.) When we served upon it, and that the late Sir R. Peel, who had been
consider how much the metropolis is one place, the pavan- one of them, had thus testified, as he was bound to assume,
tage the members have of being here with their constitu. his approval of twenty as the proper number, he had
hundredsn e t often
odfoe
hiss ,
ants near them—(a laugh)—coming down, as the hon. barn- thought it desirable that that should be the number now.
oohhasvtiintgoehoatsdina
the
nxwpriethss
their
re Mr. [mem said there was a rule of the house that no
.committee should consist of more than fifteen members,
views here in the evening—I really think we must agree unless there were some special public reason for appointing
that the metropolis—always excepting, of course, that part a larger number. He thought that no such reason existed
which I represent (alaugh)—is sufficiently well represented. in the present case, and he should certainly object to so
My right hon, friend the member for Coventry complains numerous a committee as that which was now proposed.
of my proposal for the future disfranchisement of freemen. He had rather that the number should be limited to five.
All I can say with respect to that is, that in all cases where Sir G. GREY agreed with his hon. friend the member
inquiry has taken place there seems to be at least a general for Montrose. A great change had taken place in the prac-
opinion with respect to freemen, that they are a class tice of the house since the precedents to which the hon.
more particularly liable to be worked upon by bribery and and learned gentleman the member for Yongbal had re-
corruption, and I propose therefore not disfranchising ferred. At that time there was no limit as to number,
those at present existing, but to prevent any such class for and the practice of appointing small committees in the na-
the future from coming in. Ido not wish to enter into ture of judicial committees had not then been adopted.
any details of the bill now, but rather wish that the house Ho thought it improper, in a case of this kind, to appoint
should consider those details when they have the bill even so large a number as fifteen. The charges which had
before them. lam well aware that no explanations that been made were such as ought to be judicially and carefully
I could give would enable the house to form so complete inquired into. (Hear, hear.) He was sure that the only
an idea of the measure as they can obtain by a careful wish of the hon. gentleman opposite was to have , a tho-
study of the bill itself, and I only hope that they will give rough investigation, but he had not been long in the house
it their fullest attention. The bill has been drawn with no and had not had an opportunity of watching, as other
reference to any party influence, but with a view solely to hon. members had, the changes which had taken place in
obtaining the best general representation of the country. its practice. It was for this reason that he now called his
The hon. member for West Surrey said that the whole attention to the fact, that what was in accordance with
plan of this bill is intended to advance democracy. I differ precedent in the year 1834, would be contrary to all recent
entirely in this from the hon. gentleman. (Hear, hear.) precedent if it were adopted now.
I remember perfectly well those predictions in 1831—the Mr. LUCAS said the mere appointment of a committee
King was to leave his throne—the House of Lords was to was not sufficient to effect the object which the hon. and
be abolished completely--every sort of calamity was to fall learned gentleman had in view. It heel been decided that
upon us. For my own part, Sir, if lam not mistaken, the the honour of the house required that the complaints
people, during the time the reformed Parliament has been which had been made should be subjected to a full and
in existence, have been more attached to the institutions searching investigation. Those complaints included not
of the country, more decidedly well-affected to the throne, only the specific facts mentioned by Mr. Kelly and Dr.
than they were in times before. (Cheers.) One thing I Gray, but the general charge made against one hundred
remember particularly. In the close of the year 1819 the members of that house by the article in the Times newspa-
Minister came down to Parliament with six bills, which he per. (Hear.) If that charge were tree, multiplied offences
introduced into this house. One was to prevent public had been committed of a very secret character, and such as
meetings, another to gag the press, another intended to re- were very difficult of investigation. What course had the
strain some other popular liberty—all measures, as Lord house generally adopted when inquiring into secret offences
Castlereagh expressed it, of strict coercion, intended to of that kind ? If they wished to inquiry into allegations
repress what he considered the growing disaffection of of bribery—in reference, for instance, to such a borough
athsemcyounnothrlye.friLopetdtthheehHonom.
egesnotolreeintsa:,eybheapsesrasiudaitolesolotehaotf,
pas St. Albans—they took care, concurrently with the ap-
ointment of a committee or a commission, to pass an act
his celebrated speeches, there were two kinds of re- of indemnity. (Hear, hear.) If they wished to get rid of
volutionists—one who seek by tumult and violence the corruption complained of by this article, they must
directly to change the form of government, and those adopt the same course and must place the witnesses whowho, by opposing well-considered and useful plans might be able and willing to give evidence before the com-
of reform, impede all moderate progress, and thus mittee in a situation to do so without risk to themselves.
cause those violent changes which they themselves must (Hear, hear.) He did not mean to say that any party
deprecate. My belief is, that the present measure is what wished to smuggle up the case ; but their own conduct in
my noble friend at the head of the Government has in an- other instances was the best proof that a measure for the
ticipation described it to be, " a liberal and conservative protection of witnesses must be passed, in order that those
measure." That I believe is the description which \fully witnesses might be forthcoming. He had an additional
agrees with its character. With regard to the question reason for making this suggestion to the house, in some-
put to me as to the numbers of the constituency, I really thing which had come to his knowledge since the former
have not ventured to bring any calculation before the house, discussion ou this subject. He had certain newspapers TAE COAL TAX.—Yesterday an interesting return to
It was so difficult to calculate how many of certain classes brought under his notice which had at first led him to ap-
1
now have votes, and it would be impossible to tell what the prebend that he might possibly have done some injustice to the House of Commons was printed respecting the coal
future number would be. that class of Irish representatives of whom he had expressed
—The de a t
tax. It appears that the amount of local or municipal
Mr. W. D. SEYMOUR inquired whether the two years an unfavourable opinion ; for he had seen in the columns dues collected on the importation of coals or coke into
and a-half residence was to lo in the same house or in the of those newspapers that Government appointments were the several ports of the United Kingdom was, in 1851,
same borough? "legally saleable," and that the Times itself had been a 243,2131. 1 le. 9d., and in 1852, 240,5771. 3s. ld. The
Lord J. RUSSELL.—In the same borough, but not ne- party to such transactions. (Hear, hear.) He had copied taxes on the exportation of coals exported in 1851 was
from that journal certain advertisements which seemed to 48,483/. 12s. 10d., and in 1852, 47,291/, 19s, 2d, The
cessarily in the same house.
y tax on coals and coke brought by railway into the ports
of the United Kingdom was 17,5331. 4s. 7d. in 1851,
Mr. T. BUNCOMBE thought that, on the whole, the him to deserve the attention of the house, if they honest]
bill, with some amendments, would be a very excellent wished to inquire into the charge which had been made,
measure. The next thing the noble lord had to do was to that offices were actually sold. (Hear, hoar.) In the Times convince the country that he and his Government were in of the 11th January this advertisement appeared :
earnest, anti that they were determined to pass a bill to " Douceur-200/. will be paid at once to any lady or gen-p r ures from
tons. The rates
improve the representation of the people. They must on no tleman who will legally procure for the advertiser (a young and
o DEPARTURES
d206n5f1 o6r Ithe. colonies during the part week
doubt, beset--to postpone the discussion of this measureLAustralian
610R'Ai un sirBßsA2r; 1 A .
account listen to the evil counsels with which he w„ no man of business habits, and who writes well----(laughter)-- show a decrease. They have comprised altogether four
a permanent Government situation worth 2001. per annum, vessels—three to Port Philip, with an aggregate cordon
until the question of war or peace was decided, or the war The strictest secrecy will be observed in the matter.—Ad. of 1,331 tons, and one to Sydney of 946 tons Their
ended. But who could tell when a European war such as dress L. S. D., Post-office, Cork." (Laughter.) On the 28th total capacity was consequently 2,277 to '
of freight exhibit a further tendency to decline,
we were now threatened with would end? Suppose the ofjannary there appeared, among others, an adveztiaement

offering " a doceur of 1001. for five years, for a Government
or other situation, legally saleable, of not less than
3001. per annum, by a gentleman aged 48, who with-
draws from one of the liberal professions; strictest secrecy
may be relied on, and security, if required, in leasehold
property—Address, J. M., 121 Edgeware-road,Paddington.'
Another advertisement, which appeared on the 4th of Feb.,
offered 101. for a situation in any of the Government or
tphoer porter, or
ja
Jan. contained
re
ci
apnudblti public offices,Civil
an offer of 5001. cash for a permanent public appointment,
with a yearly salary of from 2501, to 3001. (Hear.) He had
SaesrmviecseseGngazerelteligohft
been curious to see whether there were any advertisements.
offering places for sale. He had found one in. which. the
advertiser professed 'to be able to procure a situation of
1001. a year " in an old established business "—(Laughter)
—but coupling this with the fact, which was stated imme-
diately afterwards, that the duties were " from ten until
three," he must say that this looked very like an offer to
dispose of a Government situation. (Laughter.) He had
been anxious also to see whether there was any difference
in the number of these advertisements when Parliament
was up and when it was in session. (Hear.) He had ascer-
tained that during the whole month of January the Times
contained 12 such advertisements; and in the first week of
Feb. no fewer than 15. So that they had, in fact, consider-
ably increased after the meeting of Parliament. (Hear.)
According to " Russell on Crimes," the buying and selling
of offices was an offence indictable at common law, and by
the 49th of Geo. 111. the publication of any advertisement
containing proposals for that purpose made the party pub-
lishing liable to a penalty of 501. (Hear.) Within one week
from the commencement of the session the Times had
brought itself, in 15 instances, within the spirit of that
enactment. Nobody could doubt, after reading these ad-
vertisements, that the buying and selling of offices did
take place. The fact was put before the public in the
newspapers in the most glaring and offensive form ; and the
disgraceful character of the transaction was attested by the
stipulation made, in every instance. that strict secrecy was
to be observed. (Hear.) They could not hope, therefore,
to obtain the information which they sought, without the
act of indemnity which ho had suggested ; and he ear-
nestly appealed to the noble lord opposite to state whether
he would, by bringing forward such a measure, take the
only step which could make the inquiry effective.
Mr. GOULBURN supported the view of Sir Geo. Grey
as to the propriety of having a small committee, of which
there should be no quorum, so that all the members would
be appointed under a solemn obligation to listen to all the
evidence, and to attend from day to day until the charges
made, and which affected the honour of members of that
house, should be supported or disproved They had already
ample powers to indemnify any witness in respect of any
statement before a committee of that house which might
otherwise subject him to a prosecution, without waiting
for the measure which the hon. gentleman opposite pro-
posed.
Sir J. PAKINGTON was also of opinion that any com-
mittee which might be appointed to investigate this mat-
ter should sit as a judicial committee —that no quorum
should be appointed—and that every member should at-
tend every sitting. In order to attain this end, 20 would
be an inconveniently large number. In a case somewhat
analogous, in which the late Mr. O'Connell was concerned
relating to the Carlow election, the number of the com-
mittee was 11 ; and in another case, in the year 1835, the
number was 15. Neither of these cases, however, was put
as a case of "privilege," and he wished to ask the Speaker
whether the fact of this being so put obliged them to revert
to the precedent of 1834?
Lord H. VANE trusted the committee would not be
constituted like one upon which he had served some years
ago. In that case, a certain number of members had been
appointed by the house, but all the members represented
counties, and some others had the right of attending when
they pleased.
The SPEAKER said the committee to which the noble
lord had alluded was a standing committee, appointed at
the commencement of every session. It was called the
committee of privileges, and was composed of a certain
number of gentlemen nominated by the house, with all the
members representing counties and gentlemen of the long
robe, making up almost as many members as the house
itself. It had, however, very often happened of late years
that matters had been referred, not to the committee of
privileges, but to a committee of privileges, which was a
select committee nominated by the house. In 1834 it was
the practice to constitute committees of as many as twenty
members, or even more ; but a standing order had since
limited the number to 15, and still more recently it had
been the practice to appoint to all committees of a judicial
character a very small number of members, of whom every
one was required to be present at every sitting. He thought
this case would fall quite within that pre ,tics. (Hear.)
Mr.E.DENISO N. suggested that, consulting precedence,
they would reduce the number of the committee to five,
and recommended, further, that the committee of five
should be nominated, likewise, in accordance with the pre-
cedent, by the committee of selection.
Mr. HILDYAR I) contended that the house could not
indemnify a witness who had violated the law of the land
—(hear, hear) —a doctrine which he felt bound absolutely
to deny, lest the country should suppose they had any such
privilege. The witness, indeed, might be able to decline
criminating himself, and might, when asked if he ham' been
guilty of trafficking in office, decline answering a question
his answer to which would subject him to punishment ; but
the house could not screen one who had expressly broken
the law of the land.
Mr. F. FRENCH thought this question was being ar-
gued on what he should call Red Tape principles. Admit-
ting the desirability of their having a committee, it was to
the ability, not to the number, of those upon it that the
house should look. (Hear.) He asked why, if they were
disposed to have a real and searching inquiry, they should
not have a commission instead of a committee? And why
not pass a bill of indemnity. If the truth was that mem-
bers ha I disposed of patronage, and that the Government
had had cognizance of such feelings, then there should be
the fullest inquiry; and, with a view to the fullest in-
quiry, there should issue a commission. This was the only
way in which the persons on whom this charge would be
thrown could be freed from Suspicion. He said, on the
part of the Irish members—" We dare you now to a full
and ample inquiry." The responsibility would be on the
Government, not on members, if that inquiry did not as-
sume the form most likely to arrive at the truth.
Mr. BUTT observed that there were two propositions
before the house. One that this committee should be re-
duced in number, another that its appointment should be
referred to the committee of selection. He had no wish but
that this inquiry should be as full as possible, and that it
should be conducted in such a way that the people both of
England and Ireland would consider it to have been so. It
would not, he said, be of any use to appoint five gentlemen
unless their names were such as would give satisfaction ;
and, he must say, on this question of reduction, that he
would not wish the committee brought below 11, and would
greatly prefer its being composed of 15. The house must
observe that it contained within itself a section, opposing
the Government, who were the accusers in this case—(hear,
hear, and no, no)—and who made this accusation against
another section of Irish members. Would they exclude
the accusers from the committee, and, if they did so would
they satisfy the Irish people ? Would they leave the ac-
cused undefended in the committee, and, if they did so,
would they be acting fairly towards them? They must
have enough gentlemen of character and position on the
committee to give satisfaction as the result of their in-
quiries; and they must remember that the appoint-
ment of a small commission would certainly subject
it to suspicion. As to the other suggestion—the
appointment of this committee by the committee of
selection—he wholly rejected it, considering that the
house would be abdicating its highest functions in con-
senting to such an arrangement. So convinced was he of
this, that if the committee ho asked for was not to be
chosen by the house itself, then it became a proceeding in
which he could take no further part. Ho was
perf e 'ctly
ready to give way as to the number of the committee • but
if it were not to be appointed by tho house itself, he Lust
decline any further responsibility.
robjection tdoeany
eform
potri
oann yo
fe xttheen t ofainsqt uh suggestionr yu
ut wshet
hheaaatt
rs
not
ehe
sve er any
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL was not aware that among
d
the Irish members on his side of the house there was
an
angdrasunteelodearin
it
up
All they desired was the best, the surest,
and the directs
g
method of coming to a right conclusion. He t
tl
whole should
truth
tah buifl lt
this
s indemnitymattmatter,
en re would
be nothing to prevent there havincs, the truth, I
are the
and satisfactorily, one way or the other. The hen' . member
perfectly
(Mr. Lucas) would then be able to substantiate the accusa-
tions made in his extraordinary speech the other night—
such a speech as he (Mr. J. O'Connell) though he had been
some seventeen years in Parliament, had nver heard be-
fore. The hon. member had then stated that there was no
doubt whatever that the grossest and most corrupt prac-
tices had prevailed among Irish members ; and he supple-
mented that statement with the declaration that he could
not mind would not prove it. (Hear.) By this bill of in-
demnity asked for, it would be shown whether the hon.
member's charges were capable of proof or not ; for by its
operation there would be no impediment to their being
proved, except their being false. The hon. gentleman
(Mr. J. O'Connell) concluded by requesting that his name
might be withdrawn from the committee on the ground
that he had had personal conflicts with some of the gentle-
men who must be examined in this inquiry.
Colonel DUNNE said that Irishmen were accustomed
to libel in the Times, and that he never recollected any
organic changes having relation to that country which had
not been prsceded by a skirmishing line oflibel in that
paper. The hon. member (Mr. Butt), however, had con-
fined himself to two assertions made in Ireland ; and
those charges to which he had alluded were such that the
tribune before which they were investigated should be
judicial. They should have a commission ; and the Go-
vernment—which, if there had been corruption among
Irish members, must have been a party to it -should be
willing to grant a commission. He believed that the re-
sult of due inquiry would be a contradiction of these
charges, but he thought the Government would be to
blame if they were not fully investigated. He regretted
that the leader of the house was not present to speak on
this point for the Government.
Sir J. YOUNG explained Lord J. Russell's absence by
the fatigue incident to his long speech on the Reform mea-
sure he had brought in that evening. As regarded the
proposal for an indemnity bill was not needed. The house
had itself ample power to protect the witnesses brought
before it. The sole question was as to the number of
which this committee should consist ; there was no ques-
tion as to whether the nomination should be by the com-
mittee of selection. As to the number, it had, in the
recent practice of the house, been reduced, with great
advantage, from the larger to the smaller number. The
number was the only question.
In reply to Mr. PHILLIXfORE,
Sir J. YOUNG repeated that the house had ample
power to protect its witnesses.
Mr. ROEBUCK doubted this doctrine. If he indicted
a man who had confessed before a committee of the house
that ho had trafficked in the sale of office, he suspected the
house could not interfere to shield that man, or to protect
him from legal consequences.
Mr. BUTT was willing to withdraw his motion for a
committee of twenty members, substituting as his num-
ber, fifteen—which was agreed to. Hethon gave
notice of
the nomination of a committee of that number this day.
The house adjourned at half-past nine.

CHESTER CIIP.—The two leading favourites quietly
maintained their respective positions : 20 to 1 was
wanted about each. 30 to 1 was taken to 25/. about
Tom, 50 to 1 to 20/,, and 40 to 1 to 501. about Royalist,
which was also backed for a trifle for the Metropolitan
Stakes, for which event Lindrick and Vingt•un were
also backed for 251. each at the odds quoted below.
Muscovite appeared to be under " suspicion."
The rest of the betting on the above-named Handicaps
was only in small sums.
DERBY. —4 to 1 taken and afterwards currently of-
fered about Autocrat, and 700 to 100 taken about King
Tom ; 13 to 1 to 501. and 15 to 1 to 251. laid against
Dervish ; 625 to 25 taken twice about Ruby, and the
same about Acrobat. 1,000 to 20 and afterwards 1,000
to 15 laid against Early Bird, and 4,000 to 60 against
Burlington, a new outsider included in " Scott's lot."
The room was thinly attended, several members having
left town to "assist " during the next two days at the
Lincoln Spring Meeting.

I A • .
4 0
( •
~. 159 - ; 909
570 53 2108 34
273 163 - 17
234 - 7

Colchester
Harwich ~
Leigh
Maldon

CLOSING PRICES.
LINCOLN SPEEPLECHASE.
sto 1 agst Maid of the West (taken).
LIVERPOOL GRAND NATIONAL.
Bto 1 agst Bourton (taken).
Bto 1 agst Miss Mowbray (offered).
12 to 1 agst Peter Simple (taken).
15 to 1 agst La Gazza, Ladra (taken).
100 to 6 agst Peter (taken)
25 to 1 agst Burr t Sienna (taken).
25 to 1 agst Maurice Daley (taken).
GREAT METROPOLITAN STAKES.
15 to 1 agst Royalist (taken).
20 to 1 agst Vingt-un (taken).
20 to 1 agst Lindrick (taken).
25 to 1 agst Muscovite (taken).
CHESTER CUP.
18 to 1 agst Star of Surrey.
18 to 1 agst Newrninster.
30 to 1 agst Nabob (taken).
30 to 1 agst Torn (taken).
33 to 1 agst Talfourd (taken).
40 to 1 agst Sandhurst (taken).
40 to 1 agst Royalist (taken).
40 to 1 agst Marc Antony (taken).
50 to 1 agst Horatio (taken).
66 to 1 ag,t Blame (taken).
TWO THOUSAND GUINEAS STAKES.
9to 1 agst Champagne (taken).
DERBY.
4to 1 agst Autocrat (taken and offered).
7to 1 agst King Torn (taken).
14 to 1 agst Dervish.
25 to 1 agst Ruby (taken).
25 to 1 agst Acrobat (taken).
1000 to 15 agst Early Bird (taken).
1000 to 15 agst Burlington (taken).
500 to 25 agst Ruby winning the Two Thousand, and
Autocrat the Derby (taken).

Ships at market._ 542 I Sold ll2.

RAILWAY SIIARE MARKETS.

OAKS.
4to 1 agst Meteora.

RACING FIXTURES FOR 1854.
FEBRUARY.
Lincoln Spring 14 1 Nottingham Spring 2

MARCH.
Liverpool Spring 1 Warwick Spring .
Doncaster Spring 7 Catterick
Salisbury
Coventry Spring l4 Abergavenny

AP:
Croxton Park 4
Epsom Spring 6
Cheltenham Spring 12
Newmarket Craven 17

',IL.
Catterick Bridge ,
Abergavenny ....
York Spring
Malton

1
TATTERSALL'S.—YESTERDAY. I CHELMSFORD—FEB. 10.
The trade in wheat to-day was dull, and second-rate
LIN COLN STEEPLECHASE.—Some business has been I
transacted on this event in the City, but only Maid of samples were with difficulty sold at a decline of 2s to 3s
per r. Best wheats worth ls ess mone, and few jam-
the West was brought into notice at " The Corner." The
pies q
changed hands. Barley and beans is to 2s, and peas
City prices were-4 to 1 agst the favourite just named ; 1s per qr. cheaper. Oats barely maintained last week's
5 to 1 agst Trout ; 6 to 1 each agst Topsy and Little
prices.
Charley, and 7 to 1 agst Melon.
Prices to-day were as follow :—Wheat, white, old 70s ed
LIVERPOOL CRAND NATIONAL.—Bourton had a decided to 85s 1 ne.c;s7Otsoto3Bss ; red, old 58s to 80s, new as to
lead ; upwards of 601. were invested on him at 8 to 1-- , 80s ; barley,(kchevalier, 35s to 40s ; grinding,
odds which went a-begging about Miss Mowbray ; 12 to 21s to 30smalt, 61s to 65s ; chevalier, 64s to 70s ; oats,
1 taken to 501. about Peter Simple. La Uuzza Ladra 22F; to 29s ; peas, partridge, 40s to 45s white, 48s t
boiling 55s to 61s ; dun, 4ls to 4is- beans, ticok,s4j6s
was backed at 100 to 6 and 15 to 1 ; Burnt Sienna at 30
, to 42s ; Harrow ticks, 38s to new,44s ; Mazaga'n, 38s to 41s.
and 25 to 1, and 1,000 to 40 taken about Maurice Daley.
Half-and-Half was friendless ; in the City 50 to 1 had j _
been laid.

COLCHESTER —FEB. 11.
Another dull market for every description of grain at
the following decline : —Wheat and barley 28 per qr.,
beans and peas ls, and very little business doing. The
present uncertain state of political affairs has a most de-
pressing effect.
Prices to-day were as follow :—Wheat, white, 803 to 90s;
red, 76s to 818 ; barley, 40s to 46s ; oats, 28s to 32s ; beanp,
Mazagan, 40s to 44s ; middle and small, 41s to 58s ; peas,
white, 60s to 64s ; grey, 46s to 50s.

Official Statement of the Quantities of Corn, &c., received
in the port of London, from the following ports, from
the 6th to the 11th February, both inclusive.

•
5
- 711
- 1279
104, --
13i) 370

KIRBCALDY—FEB. 11.
Here to-day we had small supplies of wheat and barley,
and large of oats. The wheat sold readily at about is per
qr. under last week's rates. Barley and oats sold slowly,
and all but the best qualities were is per qr lower.
Wheat. Barley. Oats. Beans.
First
s Od 33s Od ; Os Od
Second
38s Od I 3Js Od I Os Od
Third 546 Oct 27s Oct 24s Od I Os Od
Oatmeal, per bag of 2801bs imperial, 43s Od to 44s Od.

COAL MARKET.—Fss. 13,
Prices of Coal per ton at the close of the market
s. d.l Wallsend, &c.
Middle W. Hartley 24 6
s. d.
Carr's Hartley 24 6 Braddyll . 29 6
Holywell 26 0 Hetton 3O 0
Old Adairs 22 0 Haswell 30 0
Tanfield Moor 93 o'Kepier 29 0
Tanfield Moor Butes 23 0 Plummer 29 0
West Hartley .. ......... 25 0 Whitwell 27 6
Wylam 24 6 Heugh Hall 28 3
Wallsend, &c. Kelloe 3O 0
Acorn Close 26 0 Hartlepool 3O 0
Hadley 28 0 South Kelloe 28 3
Leverson 21 0 Whitworth 24 0
Northumberland 24 0 South Durham ., .28 0
Bell 28 0 Cowpen 25 0
Belmont 28 ijElgin . ..... ... 23 3

LIVERPOOL, FEB. 13.
STOCK EXCHANGE.—The settlement cf the account in
shares has been complete.l to-day. We have firm prices
for the new account Caledonian, 26i ; East Lancashire,
16 7-16 ; Lancashire and Yorkshire, 66 ; Lancashire and
Carlisle (new third shares), 12t p. ; Liverpool, Crosby, and
Southport, 15 s ; London and North-Western, 104 c., 4
c. 4 ; Manchester' Sheffield, and Lincoln, 22a 7; Midland,
63 ; North British, 84 ; South-Eastern and Dover, 18 9-16.

MANCHESTER, FEB. 13.
STOCK EXCHANGE. There has been an upward ten.
dency in prices, as on Saturday, but not a large businesa.
Cheshire Junction, 11 c. d.; Leeds, 65i ; Dover, 181;
Sheffield, 231 • Midland, 62i • Leed Northern (No. 2),
prem. ; Caled'onian, 26a ; London and North-Western,
WU.

BIRMINGHAM, FEB. 13.
STOCK EXCHANGE.—The Lusiness in this market to-day-
was limited, prices remaining without any material varia-
tion from previous rates. The transactions were .South
Staffords, 1 dis.