The Sun.
London, England, 1853-04-23 00:00:00

tion. If yon cook toqhe guarantee—and it is most impor-
ant you should look to the guarantee—you will find
at it was limited, that it was given with hesitation,.
and that its termination was within the immediate exPe-
tience of the generation that dealt with the operation.
In 1824 a further amount of the capital debt was dealt
with equal to 76,000,0001., and the saving effected was
"0,000/. a-year—a considerable sum, especially when you
contrast the capital dealt with, with the sum of
, upon which a saving of only 600,0001. is to
u° effected, The guarantee in 1824 was only for five years.
The committee will observe that, with the experience
araeunting to nearly a century in these financial conver-
sions, the Legislature acted with respect to guarantees with
a° much caution, and with -such a deep persuasion of the
responsibility of undertaking such an engagement, that
before that period the guarantees never exceeded seven
gears, and that in 1824, after the great financial experience
?' tile French revolution, and the peat experience of Pitt,
!lie only guarantee given was for five years. (Hear, hear.)
These are important facts for the committee to bear in
Zin.d, because, although it does not appear that a guaran-
° " an engagement of so much importance, it will ulti-
mately be found to be a most important element in all these
arrangements. (Hear.) In 1830 there was a conversion
effected which was the first of those great operations which
will ever render the name of the right hon. gentleman, the
member for the University of Cambridge, memorable in the
financial history of this country. The right hon. gentle-
man then dealt with a capital of 153,000,0001., and effected
all annual saving of 750,0001. a-year, and the consideration
given was a guarantee of 3} per cant. for ten years. Au
option was also given of 701. of a Five per Cent. Stock, an
arrangement somewhat similar to the proposition of the
first alternative of the present Chancellor of the Exche-
quer' and it is a remarkable circumstance that the amount
of that stock subscribed for did not exceed the small sum
of half a million. In 1834 there was a small reduction, to
Which I will not Parther allude than to say that the prin-
ciple of a guarantee was again applied, but only for six
3rears• In 1844 there was the great reduction effected by
the right hon. member for the University of Cambridge.
eaPital was then dealt with of nearly 250,000,0001—ha1f
of the large• amount which is—l will not say now, under
°lir consideration—but which forms the subject of our
speculative anxiety. The consideration given was a gua-
rantee of 31 per cent. for ten years, and of 3 per cent. for
twenty years after, that is to say, that after the year 1854,
"'sere was a further guarantee for twenty years at the rate
3 Pr cent. ; but in that, great and successful oeration
the united guarantee only reached to thirty yearps. Let
me place' before the committee the remarkable eircum-
'nces which contrast between that period and the
Present. (Hear.) In 1844, when the right hon. gentle.
man made those conversions, " Consols" were at 31. ls.
per cent. interest, Exchequer bills were at 21. 45., the
"'dance in the Exchequer was 4,700,0001., the floating debt
was between 17,000,0001. and 19,000,0001., the capital dealt
with was 250,000,0001 the immediate saving was 600,0001.,
and the ultimate saving 1,200,0p011. a year. Now, in-
Stead of Consols being at 98A they are above par ; Ex-
chequer bills, bills, instead of bearing 21. 4s. 6d. per cent., now
j'''" only V. 108. sd. ; the balances of the Exchequer are,
Mead of 4,700,0001., nearly double that amount; and the
Naating debt is actually lower it present than in 1844.
o•
twithstanding that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is
ers dealing with the debt under so much more favourable
500cuastances, he only effects a saving of 600,0001. upon
weluis.4oool. of the debt, and this too with a guarantee
4.41 will prevent him from operating on that large
°lona for forty years. (Hear , hear.) 'What are the
Zneral circumstances of the country which can induce the
thrnnlittee to authorise an arrangement which appears on
te'2,Bllrface so improvident and so limited in its results as
have
Which I have contrasted with all the operations which
'we preceded it? Is the rate of interest higher? Is the
_e°llntry less prosperous than at those times ? The interest
Von our floating-debt is lower ; the balances in the Ex-
ejlequer are greater, the interest of money is lower, 'yet the
light hon. the-Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes an
nlinellse financial operation, which if you pursue it to its
Possible financial termination—and unless it effects such
results it is scarcely worth the discussion it is undergoing
rand he only contemplates a saving to the country of
600,000/. for forty years. (Hear.) What I also object to
1,1? the propositions before the committee is, that the right
4°,1- gentleman has in himself settled the terms upon
Which these operations, possibly of so great an extent, and
Whichinfluence so greatly the circumstances of the time
snould be made. It was the duty of a person in the posi-
tion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer wishing to effect
such an object, rather to throw upon the public creditor
the responsibility of offering terms which might be agree-
able to him, than by coming down to the house and saying
these are the terms which I lay down, and these ale the
terms only which I can accept. The right honourable
gentleman says, " You may impugn the validity of my
reasoning, and the position which I have adopted with re-
spect to this question, but I have a sovereign object to ob-
tain—l want to establish a Two-and-a-Half per Cent.
Stock." I think the hon. member for Lambeth touched
that point in a proper manner. Nothing can be more im-
portant than a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, if you can
obtain it by legitimate means, and if a Two-and-a-Half
per Cent. Stock is the natural consequence of your finan-
cial condition. But there is nothing magical in a Two-
and-a-Half per Cent. Stock. ' (Hear hear.) A Two-and-a-
Half per Cent. Stock can be created and established at any
time, if you choose to pay for it. (Hear.) If this is to be
a factitious result, an artificial consequence, there is no
financial minister, even in a time when money is scarce
and interest is high, who could not create a Two-and-a-
Half per Cent. Stock, if he chose to do so. (Hear, hear.)
The question, of course, for the committee is, what are the
terms by which it is proposed this costly consequence may
be accomplished ? I freely admit that it is the first duty
of a minister of finance to consider the question of the in-
terest of the public debt, and I think it is highly to the
credit of the right hon. gentleman that he has given all the
energies
of his able and creative mind to this subject. But
the right hon. gentleman knows full well that there is no
teat originality in attempting to deal with such a subject.
:_49 question is, how to deal with it at the right time, and
e'lbe able to deal with it in a manner in which you may
lion your ultimate purpose. (Hear.) Now, the right
pgentleman has in this instance been ingenious, but
reyrnature. (Hear, hear.) It is totally impossible, by
i`ounlribination however clever; by any device, however
ers4 icated and ingenious, that you can make the public
raciL for take a lower rate of interest than the state of the
suipoeY, market will authorise. (Hear.) And it is quite
falbsPlbsie to Finppose that you can succeed in digging "pit-
You 'liaising snares for the public creditor. (A. laugh.)
be Ipind s-s•Y give him all the alternatives which an ingenious
va-n conceive but the public ,reditor bas a test for
Will ss•ne of his debt, and he will go to Capel-cpurt, and
(11 "'here find out exactly what his money is •.wor h.
ennitn'ttear.
e3rt
) This brings me to a point which I think the
flf these CO ought fairly to consider before it agrees to any.
di .-"e arrangements. You may rely
.upon it that all in-
s rect attempts to deal with the public debt—l will not
;aY Will alwaysfeil but will always be difficult, and that
Cur arra/theniss;as a general rule, on that subject should
ss-,„81111 1 - If the state of the money market is such that
eanPctal directly with the rate of interest, it is unneces-
sesss• for us to enter at all into the subject • but if,
f circumstances—the amount of the debt
gesNv—e• you propose to act upon, and the artificial safe-
V.'S" which surround it—you do not consider yourself
tlll'‘lfied in acting directly upon it, and must act indirectly,
a Re, i 8 no more legitimate means, if you wish to establish
she ""-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock', than by going fairly to
iPublic and saying, "We want to establish a Two-and-
all_Per Cent. Stock, what is the guarantee in the pre-
sentths'ate of the money market, with three per cent. as
e established rate of interest, which you would require
,11:21, the country for the establishment of this stock ?"
de.,.`" is a simple proposition which the country would un-
derstand. It is very possible that they would ask from
epl a very long guarantee, for aught I know longer than
.4 f°rty years ; but then you would be in a clear posi-
al of considering•whether it was expedient, wise, and
there to grant such a guarantee, and that brings us to
ratonliP.ortant question of what are the prospects as to the
e interest of money in this country. Iw. ill not now
toter into any speculations on this subject ; is a quas-
i)," which has engaged the attention not only in this, but
ether countries, of some of the profoundest political
;economists and inquirers into monetary matters who have,
ever flourished. But no one can deny that there
tow new phenomena in the present day with respect
these subjects whieh no previous minister of Silence had
ever to deal with. When the right hon. gentleman the
nlernixr for the University of Cambridge proposed his
great financial scheme, he knew what was the probable
amount of the precious metals in the world. He knew
thprettype 'well what had been the cycles of commercial pros-
f and adversity to which reference has been made
caVezening ; he had naturally considered in all its ranffi-
portal and all its possible results. and bearings, the
ut question of the terminable annuities. What are
ss, present circumstances ? Is there anybody who can
Zierlilate the present amount of the precious metals in the
c": ld, or what there will be in forty, thirty, twenty, or
ten years hence ? The question of terminable an-
to which an honourable member has given in his
thh_Fiion.to-night, while he at the same time recommended
rsiat,the whole Subject should be referred to a seect com-
h, "ee---no great compliment, by the way, tithe right
~,n• gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer—has as-
oftn.end a very different character in the estimation of some
the most important thinkers since the period of the
metallic discoveries and it has become a question whether
are should deal with that willingness with which we should
Babe done ten years ago, with the conversion of the national
eti)itttittirnytoie terminable annuities.' My opinion is, that the
not prepared to make any sacrifice at all upon
she subject, it is rather disposed to watch what might be
rae.consequences of these important changes which are
~P;11.11Y and daily occurring. I will not presume to give an
?":11011 upon the 'subject. All I ask the committee to do
seatremember .that we are living in the midst of these
, changes, and that before these great changes took
place the most successful Chancellor of the Exchequer
;ever contemplated the guarantee of interest beyond
.20
'slats, and that now, in the midst of phenomena which
Perplexing our profundest thinkers and most. experi-
enced statesmen, and agitating the hearts and exciting the
0e" of the nation, we are called upon to enter into a
arantee for forty years at a rate of interest for a conver-
;l°ll hich, if carried into complete effect and if perfectly
(Mated, will save only to the country 600,000/. a year.
only ' hear.) Tinder these circumstances, I think lam
doing my duty when I entreat the committee to pause
that
they sanction this operation. I will not go into
bliast,ilnportant question, which greatly.interests the public
kiln', and which has already greatly influenced the coin-
tee, viz., whether we ought to increase -the capital of
the national debt. Ido not think there are two opinions
• g,jnte Subject. 'Why, then, do you do it ? What do you
Is "Y ? (Hear, hear.) famine in war—or in danger
tilerreland starving ? Is there an the land? Are
IsmsetallY of-these conjunctures, exigencies, or emergencies
'night authorise yon to do that which philosophy
must condemn, but which the strong necessity of life
efts_ t°rce you to adopt ? The committee is asked now to
ca,s_es:t to increase the national debt merely for a financial
atN,Flser p and in order to gratify a laudable humour, but
nothing which was either peremptory or urgent.
r, hear.)•
that Ido net This pops. liar been so well urged' by point others
the, oraca,tt press it. What, however, Ido press upon
natre of the is the absolute necessity of considering the
greater
the guarantee, that that guarantee may be even
that this': importance than the rate of interest itself, and
thkeTegAc
is not the time when a guarantee of forty years
:atbe.of interest to be paid should be made. With
eollunittee are taking a v
o jections to the measure, I do not think the
"elune t if ery unfriendly part towards the
else_ • n they ask them to pause, in order to recon-
-1 r tit° resolutions.(Hear, hear.) What has taken
Pinaters,es.Vl,lenPecttothese resolutions since they were first
cants ,Ceo . to the house ? The right hon. gentleman
prise 'mu to the house, and, taking us somewhat by Bur-
ials ' gave notice for a committee to consider the acts re-
citing t° the W. pu to debt. We all remember the great ex-
ressitiT;. that was produced by that announcement. The
first rrnn3 stv,.ere circulated on the following da. In the
h, 0. we the resolution was as it now appears in
ssh;,'w before the comniittee. The second resolution,
viejl,,,.as to establish this great desideratum refs a Twce
ter, 44urilialfap,er. C.,ent. Stock, was of an unlimitated charm-
ectesse,7,orlia have extended to the *hole debt, Great
—4441,Z0n prevailed on the subject of the second alter-