The Sun.
London, England, 1862-03-04 00:00:00

settled,, and asked by what process,.t4e Chancellor of the
Exchequer arrived* e.t the speedy repayment which Dte had
mentioned.
Sir C. WOOD said there would be a monthly muster roll
received from India, and it was easy from ,these rolls to as-
certain the average payment for the 12 months.
The house then divided, and the numbers were—
For Sir 11. Willoughby's motion
Against it
The motion was consequently lost.
General PEEL said he thought nothing could be So un-
sa isfactory as the condition of that house with regard to
the control it exercised over the expenditure of the money
which it voted. The observations that he was about to
make were dictated by no party feeling whatever, and
would not apply t..) any particular Government or individual.
It was perfectly true that they had the estimates laid before
them, and it was said to be in the power of the house to
reduce the amount of those estimates. That would be
taking upon themselves a degree of responsibility which
he for one would be very sorry to share. The esti-

mates were produced on the authority and responsibility
_ _

_
of the Government of that day. Motions had frequently
been made to refer the estimates to a committee. To such
motions he had always been opposed. He did not think
that such a course would tend to economy. The increase
in the military expenditure had risen in great measure from
resolutions in that house. For instance, it had been pro-
posed that a regiment should only be called to serve ten
years abroad and five at home, but if that were carried
into effect it would require a much greater number of men
than the army comprised. The house approved of the ieport
of the Sanitary Commission, which recommended that in
the dormitories in barrack's every soldier ought to have 600
übic feet of air ; but if that were carried into effect it would
entail a large additional expenditure on barracks. He be-
lieved that the estimates were cut down to the lowest point
consistent with efficiency. He believed that many votes of
arger amount might be asked for, not only without extrava-
gance, but even on the score of economy. A select 'com-
mittee would have great difficulty in resisting a demand
based on a resolution of the house. He did not think that the
estimates could be much reduced. On the contrary, on the
last two occasions when the estimates had been broug ' t liibe-
fore them he had complained that they did. not provide any
hinge that were necessary. Supplementary estimates ght
to be avoided if possible. They deranged the whole finamcial
arrangements of the year. The estimates ought to prride
for the service of the year. The first improvement lieNrouid
venture to suggest would be, that the audit of the expendi-
ture should be expedited if possible. They allowed eight
months for the audit of the Admiralty accounts, and 13 for
the army. Considering the facilities of communication that
now existed, he thought that interval might be reduced.
Be that as it might, the accounts ought to be submitted to
a committee of that house. The committee ought to com-
pare the expenditure with the estimates, to see whether the
number of men voted had been actually raised, and whether
any votes had been transferred from one service to another,
and if so, whether the money so transferred had been a,ctu-

ally expended. Lae believed that the referring of the ac-
counts to a select committee in that way would lead to ac-
curacy in the estimates and economy in the expenditure:
What was their present system ? They had the estimates
laid on the table of the house, and the estimates of thafor-
mer year to compare them with ; but neither the house nor
the Government knew whether the estimates of the former
year were sufficient or, insufficient. They had much better
have the estimates of the previous year which had been au-
dited.

Sir G. C. LEWIS—The accounts.
General PEEL said he meant the audited accounts. But
with regard to any account of the expenditure of the money
which they were called upon to vote, that might, if any in-.
dustrions or inquisitive member should, two years and a half
hence, say at the end of 1864, search very diligently in the
library, he might then find an audited account of the ex-
enditure of the money voted in 1862. But whatever the
xcess of expenditure might be over the sum voted, or
whatever might have been the transfer from one service to
another, he ventured to say that that hon. member would
never be able to attract the attention of the house to it.
Ho would be met by supplementary estimates and votes of
credit, or by transfers of money voted from one service to
another, and as the house would not be called upon to vote
any further sum in regard to the expenditure. its atten-
tion could not be attraeted to the subject. It might be
asked what was the use of control over expenditure which
could not be carried into effect till eighteen months 'after
the expenditure had taken place. He admitted that it
would have no effect on the expenditure which was taking
place now, but it would have the greatest possible effect
on the expenditure in the future. The next improve-
ment that he would suggest would be an alteration in the
Appropriation Act as regarded the transfer of votes from
one service to another. At present the heads of depart-
ments were obliged to obtain the sanction of the Treasury ;
but the Chancellor of the Exchequer told them last
year that the Treasury had neither power nor
responsibility in the matter, and that if the money were
there and was required for one service, it was the duty
of the Treasury to sanction the transfer without coming to
the house. He did not mean to say that this power of
transfer might not be necessary in some cases, but he would
leave the power and responsibility with the Secretary of
,State or the First Lord of the Admiralty. For example—
if they had got more men than they had money to pay
them with, it might be desirable that a transfer should be
made. But these transfers never took place till just the
end of the financial year when the votes were exhausted.

But Parliament was always sitting at that time, and he
thought the Secretary of State should get the sanction of
Parliament and not of the Treasury for those transfers.
And if Parliament were not sitting he might make the
transfer, but he would make it imperative on him to report
the circumstance to Parliament when Parliament met. This
of course would only apply to the sums voted for military
and naval purposes. Another improvement he would sug-
gest was, that no service for the past year should be paid
for out of the money voted for the service of the present
year. Nothing was so easy as to obtain the postponement
of the delivering a contract till after the expiration of the
financial year, and then the money that was voted for this
purpose might be applied to another purpose. The noble
lord the Secretary to the Admiralty gave them an instance
the other night. He told them that £50,000 which ought to
have been paid one year became a charge on the next year.
Lord C. PAGET—It was re-voted in the next year.
General PEEL—Exactly. He had known a case not of
£50,000 but of £lOO,OOO, which became a charge on the en-
suing year, and he doubted very much whether they would
have ever heard of this 5.50,C00 if it had not been necessary
for the Government to come down to the house with a sup-
plementary estimate. He did not think any money had
been improperly or extravagantly expended. On the con-
trary, he thought that the large outlay on the military and
naval services had placed those services in a state of effi•
eieney, which was much to the credit of all the departments.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said it was remarkable
what
coin-

cidences occurred between gentlemen in office and gentle-
men who expected to be in office. The right bon. and
gallant general justified the extraordinary expenditure for
the army. The estimates for the present year of the coat of
the army were to him (Mr. Williams) perfectly incompre-
hensible. They amounted to £15,300,000, and including
the militia the cost would be somewhere about £16,000,000.
Nothing could justify this large expenditure for the army
but a preparation for war. But in the speech from the
throne her Majesty was made to say that her relations with
all foreign countries were peaceable.
Lord R. MONTAGU thought the house ought to be
thankful to the right hon. gentleman (General Peel) and to
the hon. baronet (Sir S. Northcote) for having brought the
subject before the house.
Sir G. LEWIS observed, as to what had fallen from the
right hon. gentleman (Gen. Peel), it appeared to him (Sir
G. Lewis) that the check of the house upon the army and
navy estimates was as :nearly perfect as possible. The
speech of the right hon. gentleman had been a sort of epi-
leen° to the report of the Committee cn Public Moneys,
the great object of which had been to assimilate the prac-
tice regarding the civil service estimates to that of the army
and nay). That practice was this—unless the money voted
for any particular object was expended within the year,
the power to extend it ceased. For example, if the house
voted £lOO,OOO for a barrack, and it was not expended be-
fore the Ist of April, the power of ',the War Department to
spend it was gone, and the money would have to be voted
again. Of course it was necessary that the house should
granKmoney upon estimates, but when the year had elapsed,
and all the :payments had been made, they became ac-
counts,
and could then be audited. The noble lord said that
the
r _
Gac.verranent had been guilty of a breach of its promise
to re-appoint a committee to examine the accounts—but it
wasof the_ intention of his right hon. friend (the Chancellor
the klxchsTisr) t
ra
mittee, end the to move the re-appointment of that co-
audited accounts could then be referred to
it. (Hear, hear.)

TIA pops
Mr. D. GR/FFITH - FOR CANADA,
Treasury whether thebegge4 to ask the First Lard of the
Governor-General of Canada, as
well as the commander-in-chiefast of the forces there, did not
apply to the Government
of troops to Canada considerably.simmer to send, out a body
was actually sent at that tima ; larger than that which
If ~, why they did not
more fully comply with that rec and•
Sir F. BARING said with reg:Atioill
ttrfect control over
stimates he thought the house hadt°---e navy ,and army
them, if it these to exert it. And if
general
over the thought the house had not sufficient conttrgxeacilhl
ex-
penditure, he hoped the Chancellor of the
question hear.
hear.)
ox-
appoint him a member of the committee. meeaquerw°uld
Lord PALMERSTON—In reply to the
by the hon. member opposite, I have to confirm P,Wai at at hme
stated, namely, that the reinforcements which her lqajestv,--;
Government thought it right to send to the North Ainjni.
can provinces in the course of last summer were represented
by hon. gentlemen oother side of the house s useless
injurious, and improvident, and that they ought anever to
have been sent. I believe that opinion is not now very much
entertained. It was the wish of her Majesty's Government
at the time to send a larger Lumber, but so far from that
large number' having been asked for by the colonial autho-
rities, it was in consequence of representations made by the
colonial authorities that the sending of that larger number
Was for the time suspended. Therefore it was not at all
°win gto want of foresight on the part of her Majesty's
Goverment that the larger number was not sent at the i
time.
1314 as it haPpened, I believe, it was rather fortn- I