The Sun.
London, England, 1862-05-14 00:00:00

every measure which had been introduced upon this sub
ject by himself or any one else, because, he said, they were
not founded o constitutional principles. But how could
the amendment proposed by the right hon. gentleman place
the question on censtitutionaL principles. For the last 28
years they had been discussing this question on the
ground that, in the opinion of the great body of the
people what might have been just as wise to establish a
tew hundred years ago was not just or wise at the present
time when the times and circumstances had altogether
changed. (Cheers.) He could have wished that the
right hon. gentleman had been more explicit in some of h's
declarations. He said that in the Established Church
there was a general interest. The whole community was
interested in her, but while he admitted that the general
community was interested in the Established Church so far
as Christianity
was preached in her, 3et he was no more
interested in that respect in the parish church than he
was in the Wesleyan Chapel or any other Dissenting
place of worship. (Cheers.) It was not wanted to diminish
the number of the Established Churches or their useful-
ness,
which all
had th eiyh wo
tahnetre d
pa was
ttsh a
dt
othhee
so
m Voluntaryueh principlefo r
th the
rews
Church should have fair play in this matter
of church rates. Ho wanted those who opposed the abo-
lition of church rates to be explicit. on the subject, and to
come boldly forward and say that the landed aristocracy and
the upper classes of the country who had such fl in ' uence in
the Parliament and the country were ton peor to maintain
their own chu ch. (Cheers.) If they are not, why persist
in maintaining a system which was unsui ed for the present
times and circumstances. He had no hesitation in saying
that were they to leave matters exactly as they were at pre-
sent
except the power to enforce the rate, they could by
voluntary means realise a larger amount of money in the
shape of rater, than they did at present, while all that heart-
burning and bad feeling which existed ois the subject would
be done away with. As to the Government taking up
the question, he considered that they were bound to do
so, but it would seem that the more hon, members
failed in succeeding in settling great questions the more the
Government seem indisposed to touch them. A friend of
his once said, during Lord Aberdeen's Government, that
he had no doubt that Government would go on well enough
so long as it kept clear of politics—(laughter)—and he must
say that the present Government were getting somewhat
into the_ same state. (Laughter.) If they gave up politics,
land cared nothing for carrying such measures as this, then,
he said, they occupied their positions on the Ministerial
bench as—what should he say—superior clerks. (Loud
cheers.) He asked them, then, in a session in which no-
thing had been done, except spending money away from the
hard earnings of the people, to make it famous for one day
by supporting the present measure, and thereby carrying
out one of the greatest principles in the Christian faith, of
"doing tinto others as they wished others to do to them."
(Loud c heers.)
Sir P. BURRELL opposed the measure, considering
that church rates were levied under the common law of the
couutry, and that they must provide a substitute before
they abolished them.
Sir J. F AKINGTON contended that the Church of
England was essentially the oor man's church in a much
wider sense than was the dissenting chapel, for he could
always get accommodation in her free which he must pay
for in the latter. He joined heartily in the wish that this
question should be settled, and he believed there was not
churchman or dissenter who did not believe that the time
had now arrived when it ought to be settled in• some way or
other. He was sure, however, that the question would
never be settled by the legislation of private members, and
he therefore considered that the Government ought to take
it up. The right hon. gentleman proceeded to refer to the
manner in which the Church of England was treated by some
of the extreme section of Dissenters, some of them charac-
terising her as an engine of Satan, and contrasted with
these insulting insinuations the conduct of other Dissenters,
representing the conduct of the one as being tyrannical and
intolerant, while the other was Christian and friendly. It
was impossible too much to regret that the question should
be embarrassed by the ravings of this class of Diesenters.
The object of these parties was undermine the Church. They
cared nothing for the conscientious scruples which some
people entertained to the payment of this rate, but they
wished, by means of the abolition, to attack and undermine
the Church, and their conduct had secured its reward, for
they had seen in the divisions of that house the altered
state of public feeling respecting it. (Hear.) He hoped,
however, that the conciliatory conduct of the Church of
England, and some of the more moderate of the Dissenters,
would be the means of bringing about a satisfactory settle-
ment of the question. (Hear, hear,)
Mr. DILL WYN supported the measure, stating while
he should be glad to see the Government come forward
and take up the question, he must say that there was little
encouragement given them to do so by the present state
of the question. If there was to be any compromise
it ought to come from the Opposition side of
the house, as they bad been the great opponents of every
attempt to legislate on the matter.
Mr. DISR A ELI sad gentlemen on his side of the house
had been remanded of the length of time this me ter had
been under discussion in the house and the 23 measures
which had been introduced respecting it. If that
showed anything, he considered the meaning of it
to be that the question was not ripe for discussion, and
that there were no abuses attaching to it which required
remedy. But the fact was that the pretext for legislation
was not the cause of the movement, for when the trail
came out it was found that the destruction of the
Church of England was the avowed object, and that
being the case, he thought no one would wonder at
the lngth of time which the question had been under dis-
cussion. He had always maintained that no satisfactory
settlement of this question could be come to except by
agreement, and he was of that opinion still. On
that point he agreed with the hon. member for Birming-
ham, because the original object was now avowed, and the
Government having sanctioned it could have no difficulty
in taking it up. He must also say with the hen, mem-
bar for Birmingham that the Government seemed back-
ward in taking up these public measures, and the quee,
tion of chnrch rates was of all other one they ought to take
up, for he found the other day that a member of her Ma-
jesty's Government presided at a meeting of the Libe.
ration Society, of which was probably an induction of the
future policy of the Government. (Cheers.) He was not per-
haps a Cabinet Minister, but he was at all events acquainted
with Cabinet secrets. (Cheers and laughter.) He ob-
jected to the limited area in whieh the right hen. gentle-
man the Secretary of State for. War had placed this
question. • The light hop, gentleman had refe•red to a
measure introduced into the House of Parliament by the
Archbishop of Canterbury, but this was a political and
not a religious question, and being so it was not
a question for atehhisb:ope but for statesmen to
consider. There was involved in the question the principle
of an Established Church, the lights of local governments,
and the hereditary privileges of the great mass of the
people, and he must say he never went to a division with
greater confidence of success. (Loud cheers.)
Sir J. TRELAWNY having briefly replied,
The house divided, when there appeared—,
For Sir J. Trelawny's bill .s, .. 286
Against it
Majority against the second reading —l
The announcement was received with muc cheering on
the Conservative side of the house.
The amendment was then put as a substantive motion,
and upon the house again dividing there appeared—
For Mr. S. Eatcourt's amendment...... 288
Against it
Majority for the amendment —l7
The bill is consequently lost, and the announcement of
the result was hailed with loud cheers from the Opposi•
tion benches.
The others were postponed, and the house adjourned al
six o'clock.

P,IBLIAXENTARY DIVISION.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MAY 13.
INCOME-TAX.
Mot;on made, and Question put, "That, in the opinion of
this House, the incidence of an Income-Tax should not
fall upon capital or property, and that when applied to
the annual products of invested property it should fall
only upon the net income arising therefrom ; and that the
net profits, gains, or salaries of persons and partnerships
(not being public companies) engaged in any trade, farm,
I manufacture, profession, or salaried employment, should
he subject, previous to assessment, to such an abatement
us may equitably adjust the burden thrown upon intelli-
gence and skill as compa ed 'with property" (Mr. Hub-
bard). The House divided—Ayes, 62; Noes, 99.

ATMS— 62.
Barnes, Thomas Greenall, G.
Bass, M. T. Handley, John
Bernard, Col. hay. Sir J.
Slack, Adam 11 ibbert, J.
Slake, J. A. Hodg-kinson, G.
Bonham-Carter, J. Jackson, W.
Brady, John Kekewich, S.
Bright, J. Kelly, sir F.
....,
Clay, James Lanigan, G....;
Burrell, Sir P., Bt.
LlCacinog.l7kse,irAE.. ll' •
Cobbett, J. M.
Leatham, -r-,.
Collier, R. P.
Lewis. Harvey
Cox, W.
Douc.las, Sir C.
Monson, W. J.
Doulton, I.
Dalglish, Robert
Morris, D.
Duke, Sir James Marsh,33 lah °Mn '.
P.
O'Ferrall,' M.
Fermoy, Lord
Guildford
admore
P
GFaoir.d,steßr,. W. E. Onslow, ,
R.
TELLmns,
Getty, S. G. Parker, Major W. Hubbard, J. G.
Goldsmid, Sir F. Pevensey, Viscount Crawford, R. W.
NOES-99,
Angerstein, W.
GGlaadvinst,olleaj, Major .
B.
Rt. Hn. Sir G.Alorritt, W.
Atherton, Sir W. Gibson, T. M.
Bagwell, J. Norris, J. T.
Baring, Sir F. Gower, P. 1.4, Northcote, Sir S. H.
OraCcront,oLi
oDrocine.TEh.e
Barrow, W. H. Grey,
Bar ttelot, Col. Hadfield, Geo. Palmerston,e Vint.
Baxter, W. E.
-icln,ullrY, R., jun. Peel, Sir R.
Beale, Samuel
"-aiKeY, Thomson Peel, F.
Beecroft, G. S. Hartopp, E. B. Phillips, G. L.
Bentinck, G. W. P. Hassaia, M. D. Pinney, Wm.
Blackburn, P.
E, P,
P.
• lie-
Heatheote, Sir W. Potter, E.
J. P. Powys, L. P.
Bt Herbert,""gY' Quinn,Peter
Bridges,
Sir
8., . H. A.
Bruce,Btt e ,
IiSiTAT. J. Bt. HBeuytgtawteiSir F. Ricardo, 0.
Howes, Edward Ridley, Sir M. W.
, James ' Kingsw,
Seymour, Sir M.
Caird Knightley, R.
te, Lt.-Col. Smith, Abel
Steel, John
Cardwell,llt.Hn. E. Leg h, W. Steuart, A.
Chapman, J. Leslie, W. Sullivan, M.
Churchill, Lord A. Lewis, Sir G.C., Bt. Tretusis, Hon. C. H.
Close, M.C. Lindsay General Trelawny, Sir J. S.
Colebrooke, Sir T.E. Lowe, it. Hon.R. Trollope, Sir John
Conolly, Thomas Macaulay, K. Vandeleur, Col.
Craufurd, E. H. J M`Cormick, W. Vane, Lord H. G.
Crossley, Frank Mackie, J. Villiers, lit. Hon. C.
Disraeli, Benjamin Mainwaring, T. 'Walcott, Adm. J. E.
Duff, M. E. Malins, R., Waldron, L.
Dunbar, Sir Wm. Martin, J. Walpole, S. H.
Evans, T. W.
Finlay, A. S. Weguelin, T.
Massey, W. N. Watkins, J. L. V.
Miller, T.
Freeland, H. W. Mills, T. TELLERS.
French, Fitzstephen Mills, J. R. Brand, H. B.
Garnett, W. J. Mitchell, T. A. Knatchbull-Hugess

Pigott, Francis W
Pollard Urquhart
Powell, .1.
ssssslteatecoii: y
nonlohnyfoecfll:le.
di n
no n L.
, J.
Taylor. P. A.
Thornhill, W. P.
Tollemaehe, Hon.F.
Warner, Edward
Westhead, J.
White, Jas.
Williams, W.
wood, W.
Yorke, Hon.E.

" PARTING IS SUCH SWEET SORROW."—There
has long been a most provokisg talk of General Goyon
leaving Rome. Why doesn't he leave at once ? In auc-
tioneer's phraseology, let us hope we shall soon hear that
it is "Goyon—Goyon—Gone I" In fact, we should rejoice
to hear of a general departure on the side of the French.--
Punch.
DANGEROUS !—Of course the International build•
ing is insured to the full value of all that it contains. One
would fear the must be a great likelihood of fire, as
there
hears that a live COLE is often found about the place, and
who is expected some day tomt the Thames on &a-Punch,
' -M. Kuhne, the highly respected liberal deputy
in Prussia who has been elected at Eiberfeld, writes to his
electors to thank them, and says that although stormy
weather may be expected in the coming Parliament—too
stormy almost for a man of his age (77 Years)—he will stani
by his colours so long as his strength lasts.