The Sun.
London, England, 1865-05-09 00:00:00

is quite another question—between retaining the present
constitution and a democracy. It is well that the
house should remember that the stake is not mean, and
that the issue is one of some price. It must remember we
are dealing with a peculiar people. There is no country
at the present moment that exists under the same circum-
stances and conditions as the people of {his realni•
You have, for example, an ancient and powerful endowed
church and perfect religious liberty. You have unbroken
order, and complete freedom. (Hear, hear.) You hay!
estates as large as the Romans ; you have a commercial
system of enterprise that Carthage and Venice united never
equalled. You must remember this, that this peculiar
country with its strange contrasts is governed not by fora',
not governed by standing armies, but by the most singular
series of traditionary influences which generation after
generation cherish and observe, because they know that
they embalm customs and represent their laws. With these
what have you done ? You have created the greatest eln",d
pire that ever existed in modern times ; you have amasse
a capital of a fabulous amount ; you have devised and sus-
tained a system of credit still more marvellous ; and, above,
all, you have established and maintained a scheme so Vs;
and complicated for labour and industry that the history °o f
the world offers no parallel. If you destroy this stath°
ere
society, remember that England cannot begin again. There
are countries that have been in great peril, and have ge--
through great suffering, like the United States, whose for-
tunes are now so perilous, and who in our immediate dathY°
have had great trials, and perhaps even now we have in s
United States of America a protracted and interned°
civil war. It has lasted for four years, but if it lasted le!
four more years, and vast as would be the destruction and
devastation when it ended the United States might bee!
again, because the United States would only be in the sane°
position as England was in the end of the war of the Easel
when it had only a population of about three millions, 1,854
tracts of uncultivated soil, and mineral resources net
undeveloped, but then even undreamed of. Take 'ho
case of France. There has been in France a great revolir
tion in this our day and in the days of our predecessors"'
not only political but social revolutions. You have the'
institutions of the country uprooted, the orders of seeietio
abolished; you have even the landmarks and the local liguee
moved and erased ; but France could begin again. Franey
had the greatest spread of anywheat soil in Europe,
the climate was genial,' and always had, with reference `'d
it, a limited population living in a simple manner, a°,
France could begin again ; but England—the England ths:
we know and we love, the one of which we are proud'
could not begin again. I do not mean to say that an'''
great trouble England would become a howling wildernel
nor doubt the good sense of the people would remain 1//:
fragments of the national character form a society, 1),11"
would not be Old England—England the home of a T-7;
tion, of credit, of prosperity, of capital. It is not in "i
nature of things. And, sir, under these circurestaulof
hope the house, when the question before us is one
changing the constitution, will hesitate—that they .„
sanction no step that has a tendency towards demoL.3T
but that they will maintain the ordered state of free
land that still exists. I have spoken frankly my
'.-
vireo
I do not think in this country generally there if; a des;
this moment for any further change in this notte.;,ri
think the general opinion of this country on parliarne°,..o
reform is that our views are not sufficiently /nature', ma
either side, and I cannot refuse the conclusion that hear,)
the position of hon. gentlemen opposite. (Hear!
We all know the papers circulated among us before k bee
liament meets, on which the speech of the hon. ree,irlthe
was a comment ; amongst them I recollect one calle:hetio
"Liberal dilemma," and I confess with that sylnPriiiie
feeling' that belongs to me, I could not help aPPrecT'9o.o'
the agony of the the Government on this question. to
sider that paper one of the most valuable contributle°"o
panegyric literature. (Laughter). Sir, in this house, et,
find theSe indications of want of maturity on this saVetiv,
Our tables are filled at this moment by propositions %jot
most eminent members .of the Liberal party--e 1%--
for their rank, eminent for their talents, and for I)°4"eto
and these are all trying to counteract the ad'
of the Liberal reform o° which they have been t";-fioas
vocates. It is clear, when we read their propo,ati
and speculations, that the mind and intellect of Ow P;erel
has arrived at no opinion on the subject. There is /ift 1/0
for describing such a system as theirs. It was 11°' ioboe
found in Aristotle ; and I ask any gentleman whether c,O of
propositions are not proof that the active intellige-n et.
the Liberal party is itself entirely at issue on this sill;jal'
I may say there has been more moral consistency
ness of consideration on the subject, on the part a
men on this side of the house, than those who regard
selves as having a monopoly in treating these subjects ilia
can at least, in answer to those who charge us with
to
ndid
with the suffrage, appeal to the recollection of every 40'0
mind that we not only treated it with sincerity but steel
lost everything; we lost valuable colleagues, and we tivii.nioo
to the consideration of the house to support our °Pi-otia
on the propositions. lam bound to say that on the tba
principle on which the bill was founded-1100°1,5;0
extension of the franchise and not its degraclation-"'„,FW
it will be found to be the only solution that ultimately ou
be accepted by the country. (Cheers.) I feel I cannot s'a-,iee'
behalf of myself and my colleagues that we feel thisA 'jou°
tion to be attended with any embarrassment. We 1138';b14
our duty, and it is not without some gratification ger
have listened to the candid admissions of many liscn tllO
tlemen who voted against that measure that theY.rs- -
be- wire
the defeat of that measure was a great mistake- cor
that opinion is echoed out of doors, so far as We 51:0,
corned. Ido not think that of these two partic. s
they to whom' this is the most embarrassing subJee"' f the
is no reason why I should vote for the measure - his
hon. member for Leeds. I think the carrYir,i'gowDioils'
Motion would reflect no credit on the House of :matiotto,,.
It is a mean device, not on the part of the Ilen 5- bilt
for I believe he acts from conscientious motives, tiot
its proposition, in the mimicry of its langnag1;0110
it takes from the failUre of the Government, and of 010
whole of the circumstances that attend it, it -net'
character that I think the house will do its duty to-,141,
and will secure the good understanding of their :by
tuencies throughout the country if it reject the tow
decided majority. (Loud cheers.)

TheFhoorusethethvernevdiiovus question
288
Against it
Majority du—estio7
The bill of Mr. Baines was accordingly lost. The
was received with loud cheers.
QUER Boosl.ilig
beTenWh
ebArroYeupSgohrtNt
of the
cEoAmNmSi t
te.—eEoXf
C-Zs and means Ij3
1,00,1
Sir S. NORTHCOTE asked whether the Boch'-the
Bonds were to be assessed under the power gicel3
committee. id
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIE(OII63t. 11:
could give no positive assurance upon that U.nid fiv
would deal with the power in the manner he si"b ° did
°;"1,
nmost
contemplatet advantageouswasittsh
exercise
theonxreargeri s
ee
epdtuotbotlh.i ce
fullest exchequerextent'
12;
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TORIES, ROBBERS, AND RAPPAREES (1-14—

BILL.
This
and
passed.
This bill was read third time
CLERICAL SUBSCRIPTION. 004
Sir G. GREY, in committee of the whole hone leete
that the chairman be directed to move the hous I°l.
,13$
to bring in a bill to amend the law as to subscril'At'%iircP'
declarations made by the clergy of the Establishe'
„ f the
The motion was agreed to.
Sir G. GREY then rose to • t dilel4°- A
more the ro
bill, when
An HON. MEMBER moved that the house be ""-
tea, 913'
there being only 36 members present,
Tho house adjourned at five minutes past cue
tb,,s
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