The Sun.
London, England, 1865-03-04 00:00:00

MONASTIC INSTITUTIONS IN ENGLAND.

. NEWDEGATE rose to move for a select committee
to
inquire
into the extensive character and increase of
monastic or conventual societies in Great Britain, and pre-
vented some petitions from different parts of the country in
favour of his motion. He said that last April he had •
proposed to the house to institute
into the statements which had been an
inquiry
made by a
a gentleman named Smee, who presented
becamepetition re- 1,
vpecting his relation Mr. Hutchinson, wh
member of the Oratorians, who had a place of worshipa
at Brompton' and a burial ground at Sydenham. It hap-
pened that subsequently Mr. Smee addressed letters to
the Duchess of Norfolk, which were printed and
circulated ; and perhaps no person had more rea_
von to complain of the adoption of that course
than he (Mr. Newdegate). These letters were
printed and circulated without his authority or con-
vent ; and the effect of these letters was to divert attention
defeat
from the motion he had made on the subject and to
its success. He had referred to another case, in which a
gentleman, who was in orders in the Church of England
and was about to be promoted to a living, had been, as he
contended, seduced to become a member of the Oratorians,
and he read the petition which that, gentleman's father
had presented, in which ho said that his son had
been induced by improper influence to take a course that
'as detrimental to his prospects in life. This petition
was taken no notice of, a matter which much surprised
him, as the subject of the petition was of great importance.
It was contended that the Act of Parliament of 1829 did
notuanp_Ply to the Oratory at Brompton, on this alleged
gr
° d, that it consisted of a number of secular priests
'who became members voluntarily, were not compelled to
remain in the body
Against thatand had control over their property.
assertion he cited the decision arrived at by
the Catholics at Geneva, to the effect that that body were
a regular order of
of monastic and eiergY.He alluded next to the increase
conventionalres. institutions in this country,
and contrasted the f
Prussia in regard to thenctions imposed in France and
period
for which religious vows
should be taken, and to the f
ss act that in Italy it had been
considered right to suppre
to the freedom permitted in thsi:
me
protestant monastic institutions,
regarded the increase of the institution country. As
said that from a small number they had rise in question, he
of 58 religious establishments for men,lean to the extent
10 colleges in Great Britain and Wales ; and
addition of 19 in Scotland, the number of con:: with the
increased to 201. To show that Monastic convents
were
itßntions
were deemed dangerous and impolitic oven in
'Catholic towns in the country, he cited historical Roman
taman
ments as to the course which Cardinal Moreton deemed it
advisable to adopt in the time of Henry VII., by recom-
mending the Pope of that day to use his authority for the
ruppression of those establishments. The visitation made
at the time developed a very loose state of morals in those
institutions, and the Pope issued a bull, or re-
script, in conformity with the recommendation he
had received. It would be remembered that Henry
VIII. considered these institutions so dangerous that he
did all in his power for their extinction, although he h-ad
been entitled Definsior Fedei, and written a letter against

Chambers, and since then events had occurred which had
materially altered the public feeling in England on the sub-
ject to which it related. At that period the table was co-
vered with petitions in favour of the motion, and public
meetings had been held all over the country upon it. The
people of England at that time, actuated, he believed, by
very blind and ignorant prejudices, did think that a com-
mittee of inquiry, which ;should investigate the existence,
number, and character of conventual establishments, was
necessary. But then they knew very little about those in-
stitutions. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Very soon after that
however they began to hear something about nuns. At the
time of the Crimean war their conduct and practices came
to be talked of in that country ; and, speaking from the
Treasury bench as a Minister of the Crown, Mr. Sidney
Herbert gave to the house his opinion of the character of
these ladies. The people of England, he believed, were
very much influenced by what they then heard and saw.
There were, ho believed, at that moment sitting in the
house some gallant officers who had seen those ladies in
the Crimea attending on our wounded soldiers, and who
could bear testimony to their character. But in addition to
that something more had happened. About the same time
the conventual institutions in England which were in any
way connected with education were placed under Govern-
ment inspection, and in the report of the commissioners on
popular education, which was composed of the Duke of
Newcastle, Sir J. Coleridge, two clergymen of the Church

of England, and three othergentlemen, who were also mem-
hers of the Church of England, he found it stated that the

Roman Catholic female training schools were supplied with

students of a very much higher class than the male schools,
the teachers being for the most part members of religious

communities, and immeasurably s uperior to those who taught
in the male schools. Such was the opinion of the Commis-

goner on Popular Education in England, and last year a

blue-book was published which gave the fullest informa-
tion with respect to all the convents in Ireland, to which
also the motion of the hon. member related. And what did
the Government inspectors say in reference to those insti-
tutions in Ireland ? On the question of the moral training
given in those establishments, and that was the only point
to which he would at present allude, the Protestant and
Presbyterian officials of the Government—and he would
quote from their evidence alone—distinctly said that the
moral training in the nuns' was greatly better than that in
the lay schools. The Sisters of Mercy had a school in New-
town, in Galway, and Mr. Simpson, the inspector, who was
a Presbyterian, spoke of the moral training there as being
superior to that of other schools, as a natural consequence
of the children associating with the sisters. Another Pres-
byterian made the same statement with respect to another
school in the county of Galway, while similar evidence
was given by the Protestant inspector of National Schools
lin the King's County, as well as by others in the north of
Ireland. Mr. Kennedy, referring to a school in Sligo, said,
" there are eight nuns employed here, and I consider there
is no school in the district in which the moral training is so
effective or so good." Such testimony was, he thought, suffi-
cient to show that the hon. member for North Warwick-
shire and his hon. friend the member for Peterborough
really only represented their own views on the present oc-
casion, and not the sentiments of anybody who was ac-
quainted with the facts of the case, or who had such ample
opportunities of arriving at a sound judgment as the Go-
vernment inspectors. The hon. gentleman in the frequent
allusions which he made to the fathers at the Oratory
last year repeatedly asserted that they had acted in vio-
lation of the Emancipation Act of 182 J. (Mr. Newdegate
was understood to say that he stated they might be
technically within the law.) Well, then, the hon. gen,
tleman must have changed his opinions on the point since
last year. The decisions in opposition to his views which
had been given by Sir J. Wilde in the Probate Court, had,
perhaps, opened his eyes, because that learned Judge had
clearly shown that the statements which had been made by
the hon. gentleman in that house had no foundation what-
ever in law, and the jury immediately found a verdict in
favour of the fathers of the Oratory. All he could say was
thathe was not surprised the hon. gentleman had again come
to that house, because in the courts of justice he had been
completely
cmere
idle
baffleddlefabri andcatio bens.aHteen,coaunldd hniost,sbtaetemmigebntts foadd,und to
com-
pliment the hon. gentleman on his historical
research.
vb His
historic anecdotesremindedhim of the advice i
Chesterfield to his son when ho told him that
g certaine storiesyL
ord
were so extraordinary that even if he believed them tobe
true he would advise him not to repeat them, for if he did
so people would begin to entertain doubts of his veracity.
(A laugh.) He should therefore pass over the anecdotes of.
the hon. gentleman, as the invention of those anonymous
gentlemen who supplied him with his information, and as
to some extent, no doubt, the result of those long consul-
tations which he held with the hon. member for Peter-
borough, for some time past they were to be seen in every
hole and corner, putting their heads together and comparing
notes for their present great campaign. (A laugh.) And
what was nearbeing the upshot of those deliberations. Why,
that when the motion was put from the chair it would ap-
pear as if
it was to be lost for want of a seconder, until
the hon. member for Peterborough rushed to his seat. But,
be that as it might, the motion was one for
inqui.ry, in the
shments;
first place, into the number of c
onventual
establi
like to know,
that the hon. gen-
and why was it, he should
tleman asked for information on that point? He told the
house he had got all tho statistics on the subject. Where
did he get themAs ? a matter of fact, the number of
olic
those institutions was elaborately set forth in the Cath
Directory, while their character could be ascertained from
any person acquainted with them—and they were many
—of whom he might choose to make inquiry. What
the motion of the hon. gentleman meant, so far as if re-
lated to inquiry into the . existence" of conventual estab-
lishments he could not understand. That they existed was
a well known fact, and there could be as little doubt that
their existence was in accordance with law. But the truth
was that what the hon. gentleman was aiming at was to
raise
ose
ise the
popular indignation of which he spoke against
ladies who passed their lives in educating the poor,
attending the sick, and •
performing acts of charity, who had
never done the hon. f gentleman injury,
and
in
making out a case against whom he had, so
the House was concerned, signally
failed, as he would also, he had no doubt, fail in the country.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. NEATE observed, that in France the Government
had a certain control over convents •
which the English

ports as follows :
" In my Opinion, Mary Ryan is still of unsound mind,
labouring under a very common form of melancholia, with
a suicidal tendency. I also think that she is not in a state
to be safely taken care of out of an asylum."
It also appears that every person actuated by benevolent
motives, or sent by the Government, received every facility
in visiting the girl, and that she is treated with kindness
and consideration. The only reason why she was not
brought back to this country—a course which both the
Belgian Government and the managers of the institution
would gladly have pursued—was that her state of health
was such as to render it probable that her removal would
have exposed her to a renewed attack of mania. (Hear,
hear.) With regard to the general question, I cannot help
expressing my regret that after the interval which has
elapsed since this subject was last before the house it should
have been revived by the hon. gentleman. (Hear, hear.) 1
implicitly believe the hon. gentleman's assertion that he
is not actuated by any religious bigotry, but is only acting
in what he regards as the honest discharge of his duty, and
I also believe that he represents the opinions of a very
large number of persons in this country—(hear)—but with
the recollection of what has before taken place in this
house I do not think that it is judicious to press such a
question upon its attention. In 1853 Mr. Thomas
Chambers brought in a Bill which led to very long
discussions. It was founded upon, I think, the same as-
sumption as the present motion—viz., that many per-
sons are subject to the undue and improper exercise
of coercion and restraint in conventual establishments,
and that the existing law does not afford adequate means
for their relief. The bill was lost on the second read-
ing, and its place was taken by an amendment, meved by
an hon. and learned gentleman not now a member of
this house, to the effect that a committee should be ap-
pointed to inqiiire "whether any and what regulations are
necessary for the protection of the inmates of establishments
of a conventual nature, and for the prevention of tho
exercise of undue influence in procuring the alienation of
their property." The object of that motion was much more

restricted than is that of the resolution now before the

house, but it led:to a very protracted debate, and ultimately,
owing to the advanced period of the session, it became a
dropped order or was discharged without any decision be-
ing come to. In the next session Mr. Chambers, deferring
to what appeared to be the opinion of the majority of this
house, moved for a committee of inquiry.. The motion was
carried by a considerable majority, but what followed? We

were led into eternal debates night after night upon the
question of ;the nomination of that committee or upon mo-
tions for the discharge of the order. Thera were many acri-
monious debates ; much valuable time was lost ; ultimately
it was found impossible to nominate the committee, and no
practical result was derived from those discussions. (Hear,
hear.) That is rather a warning to us not to enter upon the
course to which we are invited by the hon. gentleman than
an encouragement to expect from it any useful result.
With what view is the inquiry proposed? I was in hopes
that the hon. gentleman would, according to the ordinary
practice of Parliament, have shown that he asked for in-
quiry with a view to legislation. We do not appoint com-
mittees merely to gratify curiosity, or to obtain informa-
tion which the person seeking it says he does not desire to
make the basis of Parliamentary action.

Mr. NEWDEGATE said he stated that he desired to lay
the facts before the house, and would leave it to the wisdom
of the house to apply the remedy.
Sir G. GREY—I think an hon. gentleman ought to trust
a little to his own wisdom, and, when he brings a subject
before the house and asks for the inquiry of a committee,
ought to show that some practical result is likely to be at-
tained, and state that, after inquiry has taken place, he will
be prepared to recommend the house to take some legisla-
tive action. The hon. gentleman does not do that ; he
merely wishes to obtain the information and lay it before
the house, without taking any ulterior proceedings upon it.
I should like to know what the hon. gentleman's object is.
Is it the inspection of these institutions, or is it, as I rather
gathered from his speech, their absolute suppression ? On
what ground does he think that Parliament ought to inter-
fere in this matter? Does he believe that there are many
persons in a state of absolute physical coercion and restraint,
and that the law is unable to provide a remedy ? I know
that such a belief prevails very extensively, and is held by
many people much more strongly than by the hon. gentle-
man himself. There was sent to me a few days ago a copy
of the Buiwark, or Reformation Journal, dated the Ist of
March, containing a paragraph headed, "Protestant Action
in Parliament," in which it is stated that :
"On the 9th of February a special meeting of the Gene-
ral Committee of the Protestant Alliance was held in Lon-
don, when the following resolutions were unanimously
adopted That there has been a large and sudden increase
in the number of conventual establishments in Britain, and
at the present time there are 201 of these institutions in
England and Scotland for females, containing, it is believed,
many thousand inmates, most of whom are under a consider-
able amount of constraint, and are deprived of the liberty
of quitting these establishments. That it is desirable that
Parliament should institute inquiry upon this subject, and
that the following petition on conventional establishments
be adopted.' "
The petition repeats this statement in substance, 'and con-
cludes :
"Your petitioners therefore pray your honourable House
to institute an inquiry into the existence and condition of
monastic and conventual establishments, and to take such
means as shall secure the due observance of the law and
the liberty of the subject."
Now, sir, what proof has been given of the inadequacy of
the existing law to meet any of these supposed cases of phy-
sical coercion ? The hon. gentleman has cited several in-
fs
ul necneos ,übut h
ttoh
de ye
asle ewmi
tehd ttohme
see t
coasshe os ww thheant
theyth e l a
owe
ci sup no w
He r
must
peaknnroasowpnptlhitalt if h
et
loonntfifneoerre ida a
nsw
re reasonable b t
koofenphatab
elienagun
srre corpusostrado suspect
any tmaagyas
tmt
ahhaiaswill, et
on his behalf, and if it were supported by affidavits the
court would at once grant the writ. I was not acquainted
with the particulars of the case with respect to which the
hon. gentleman said that he had 27 affidavits. [Mr. New-
degate.—Nine affidavits.] One affidavit would be quite
enough, and I am sure that if affidavits were made dis-
closing proceedings as to the illegality or criminality of
which there could not be a moment's question, showing that
there were in any conventual establishment dungeons into
which women were forced, and from which they were not
allowed to come out alive—circumstances which would
justify a magistrate in ordering the police to enter the
establishment and make a thorough examination—the hon.
gentleman would be the last man to put such affidavits into
his pocket until he had an opportunity of bringing them
before the House of Commons. He must have known that
judicial proceedings could be taken to ascertain the truth of
the affidavits, to stop the proceedings complained of, and to
bring the parties concerned to justice. In this country such
proceedings would meet with universal censure, and
Catholics would unite with Protestants to strengthen the
hands of any one who was engaged in their exposure.
(Hear, hear.) In these conventual establishments and
colleges ladies of rank and education are to be found, and
does the hon. gentleman really suppose that the friends of

the hon. gentleman, perhaps, will say that the object of his
motion is to attain that end. (Hear, hear.) Then, I say,
Sir, that is an object which a committee of the House of
Commons will never assist him in accomplishing. (Hear,
hear.) He asks the house to appoint a committee for the
purpose of obtaining evidence upon which to found a prose-
cution against the persons who give it, evidence which the
persons summoned before the Committee are compelled to
give. (Hear, hear.) Now, I ask, would the house ever do
that ? (Hear, hear.) My hon. friend the member for Ox-
ford (Mr. Neate) alluded to France, and said there is a class
of convents there subject to visitation. But, then, they are
under the sanction of the State. We have made an excep-
tion with regard to convents in which women live who are
bound by religious vows. We do not pass any law with re-
spect to them ; but, then. we do not recognise and sanction
them ;we do not profess to regulate them. (Hear, hear.)
Will the hon. gentleman the member for North Warwick-
shire, and the hon. member for Peterborough agree to take
them under the sanction of the State ? (Hear, hear.) If so,
you can then make regulations which you cannot make now,
and which it would be most inexpedient to make if you
refuse to recognise them. (Hear, hear.) The effect of the
prohibition of female convents would not be to diminish
by one the number of the inmates of those establish
ments, but it might be to drive them abroad, where they
would be further than ever from their relatives and
friends. (Near, hear.) For all these reasons I think it
would be extremely inexpedient to enter upon this inquiry
unless the house is thoroughly satisfied of the existence in
those establishments of physical coercion and r.3straiiit,
which the law is at present unable to reach. I believe that
no proof has been afforded either of the existence of such
cases or of the inadequacy of the law, and, retaining that
opinion, I shall vote against the motion of the hon. gentle-
Man. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. SCULLY, who was received with loud cries of "Di-
vide," said he was sure the house would give him a hearing
as it always cud to any one who was personally concerned in
the question before it. (Oh !) He had never listened to
any debate in that house with so much pain. (Oh !) The
observations of the hon. member for North Warwickshire
had been most insulting to him and to every Catholic mem-
ber. (A laugh.) He would not characterise the speech of
the hon. member for Peterborough, for he was sure that
hon. gentleman did not know what he was saying.
(Laughter.) But his friend the hon. member for Oxford (Mr.
Neate), whom he would not have suspected of such ideas,
had said that he would support the motion on the grounds
that he, as a Protestant, felt it necessary to interpose in
behalf of the friends of Roman Catholic members who, out
of reverence for the heads of their Church,would not inter-
fere for the protection of their own relatives. He (Mr.
Scully) would have the greatest contempt for himself if
any such feeling for priest or bishop, or even for his Holi-
ness himself, should prevent him from affording every pro-
t
tection in his power, not only to his own relatives, but to
any other persons. He was in the habit of going to convents,
felt no interest in their happiness ? Let. hon. gentlemen
he had sisgtceersapt
asonlykn Ina dr,
Protes-
tantstchillenamnaselves what would be their feelings under similar
nOfitsic:Pa
imputations. A sister of his was superioress of one of those
convents, and he would bring the hon. member for North
Warwickshire there if he wished. (Laughter.) He would
bring him to any convent he pleased—there would be no
difficulty in getting in. Any gentleman might do so who
sent in his card ; in fact, there were no private female esta-
blishments of any kind into which it was so easy to get ad-
mission. He had great experience of convents, and no
complaint of restriction or restraint had ever reached him.
There were only 31 Catholic members from Ireland in that
House, and one from England, the noble lord the member
for Arundel, and they were of course in the minority. The
motion might be carried before the election, but what good
would it do ? If it were an electioneering motion, what a
miserable course to take upon such a question ; and then it
was confined to Great Britain. (No, no.) Yes ; the terms
were "to inquire into the existence, character, and increase
of the monastic and conventual establishments in Great
Britain." (Hear, hear.) But Irishmen in England and out
of it would deeply resent such a motion. It was the Catho-
lics who would be aggrieved if such absurd stories as had
got into the head of the hon. member for Warwickshire
were true, and it was a personal imputation on them of the
most abominable kind. Did any one suppose that he would
weigh his seat in the balance against the persecution in a
convent of any relative of his ? The question was not what
had happened in former times or other countries. (Hear,
hear.) Did any one suppose that any lady now was im-
mured in a convent against her will? If so, would it not
be known ? Then there was the trumpery case of Mrs.
M'Dermott. The whole facts were in the hands of the hon.
member for Peterborough, for it was he that drew up the
affidavits, and he might easily see that it was a trumpery
case if he only knew how to draw the right conclusion.
(Laughter.)
The house then divided, when the numbers were—
For Mr. Newdegate's amendment, 79
Against it 106
• .•
Majority —27
••• •••
The amendment was therefore negatived.
ORDNANCE SURVEY.
In answer to Sir W. JOLLIFFE,
The Marquis of HARTINGTON said the report on the
Ordnance Survey in the southern counties of England
would be in the hands of members next week, and would
furnish detailed information as to the progress of the sur-
vey and the publication of the Ordnance maps. The latter
could not be published until the survey was made, but the
two operations would go on simultaneously.
The house then went into committee pro forma.
The Court of Chancery (Ireland) No. 1 Bill was read a
second time:
The Industrial Exhibitions Bill passed through com-
mittee.

BRITISH KAFFRARIA.
On the order for recommitting the British Kaffraria Bill,
Mr. A. Mass wished to know whether, in the event of
another Kaffir war breaking out, the Imperial Government
would have a right to call upon the Cape colony to pro-
tect the territory proposed to be annexed to it by the bill
without the consent of the Cape Legislature.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE said that it being impossible to
maintain the territory as a Crown colony, owing to its
limited resources, without coming to Parliament for assist-
ance, the only alternative was to annex it, by the consent
of Parliament, to the Cape, of which it naturally formed a
portion ; and he did not deny that it was an exercise of
Imperial authority on the part of this house. The bill
would in fact do more than carry out the views respecting
our colonies of which the hon. member was the exponent.
Mr. MARSH approved of the bill as a fair and econo-
mical measure.

Mr. ADDERLEY, having read all the papers relating to

The weekly meeting of the Board was held yes-
terday at the offices in Spring-gardens; Mr. Thwaites
the chairman, presiding.
Mr. POLLARD read a letter from- her Majesty's
Office of Works relative to the Park-lane Improve-
ment Bill. The First Commissioner had expressed
an opinion that a special clause should be introduced
into the bill .in order to provide for the protection of
the rights of the Crown tenants in Hamilton-place,
and to_ this the chairman had replied that the Lands
Clauses Act had been incorporated in the bill for
this purpose, and that at any rate the tenants could
be heard before the committee on the bill. The First
Commissioner now reiterated his wish that a special
clause should be introduced into the bill, as he said
the position of the tenants in Hamilton-place was
very peculiar, inasmuch as their only injury might
be the conversion of their quiet street into a noisy
thoroughfare, an injury which was not. provided for
by the Lands Clauses Act.
Several exclamations were made by members that
a special law was wanted for the West.
Major LYON said the letter must excite universal
surprise, asking as it did that a few persons should
be selected for compensation, which the law of Eng-
land did not give to others. The erection of a rail-
way station close to the Palace of the Queen had no
doubt been a great annoyance to her Majesty, yet
no special law was sought to award compensation
for the injury which the scream of the railway-
whistle had been to the dwellers in Buckingham
Palace ; and how Mr. Cowper could suppose that
such a law would be made for the inhabitants of
Hamilton-place he did not know. The Board ought
to express an opinion that such special legislation
would be unjust.
Mr. TITE, M.P., said he had pointed out to the
Right Hon. F. Peel that the Lands Clauses Act, as
incorporated in the bill, would give inhabitants of
Hamilton-place the right to claim compensation for
any injury they might sustain, and the right hon.
gentleman had stated he was satisfied it would
do so.
Mr. NEWTON was of opinion that if opposition
were thrown in the way of the bill the best thing to
be done would be to withdraw it. If such a clause
as was asked for by the Hon. W. Cowper were in-
troduced, there would be no end to the expenses of
the Board, for all sorts of injuries would have to be
compensated for in all the improvements which the
board carried out.
Mr. COLLINSON moved that a letter should be sent
to the First Commissioner, stating that the Board
would not agree to the introduction in the Park-
lane Improvement Bill of any clause not in the Lands
Clauses Act.
Mr. HEALY seconded this motion.
Mr. FREEMAN said after the experience of the
Board in the Thames Embankment Act, through a
special clause in which Act the Board had been made
to pay very heavily for land, it would be very un-
wise to permit any more special legislation.
The CHAIRMAN said if he understood the feeling
of the Board it was that they would resist the in-
troduction of any fresh principles such as this ; for,
if the Board agreed to special legislation on behalf
of the Crown tenants no objection could be made to
have special legislation for other persons whose in-
terests-might be affected by the board's works.
Mr. MILLER, M.P., said the bill, he supposed,
would go to committee, and if the clause were then
introduced the bill would be abandoned. He did not
however, think that the committee would introduce
such a clause—a clause to give compensation to per-
sons for carriages going past their doors.
The resolution proposed formally was " That in
the opinion of the Board the interests of the parties
affected by the Park-lane Improvement Bill are suf-
ficiently protected by the Lands Clauses Act, and
that this Board cannot be a party to any special
legislation on the subject.
On the suggestion of Mr. Miller, the last sentence
was struck put, and the resolution to the word " act"
was unanimously agreed to.
Mr. TITE then called attention to the difficulty
hitherto experienced in obtaining a sufficient supply
of granite for the northern Thames embankment,
and moved that a reference should be made to the
Thames Embankment Committee to consider with
the engineer whether some other description of stone
than that used on the northern side might not with
propriety be used for the facing of the southern em-
bankment. The hon. member said his only reason
for introducing the subject was that the works might
be pushed on as swiftly as possible, and he did not
think the northern and southern embankments could
be carried out together if it should be decided to use
granite on both. He showed specimens of a lime-
stone which, he said, was almost indestructible, was
used for great works on many parts of the Conti-
nent, and was cheaper than granite, and advised
that the committee should consider whether this
.might be used.
A lengthened discussion arose, in which Mr. New-
ton, Mr. Samuda, Mr. L. Taylor, Mr. Miller, M.P.,
and other members took part, and the chief objec-
tion to the stone was its colour.
Mr. TITE, in reply, pointed to the Customhouse
quay, and the embankment to the Houses of Parlia-

Mr. Hardinge Giffard, Q.C., and Mr. Poland, instructed
by Mr. Humphreys, solicitor, of Newgate-street, again
conducted the prosecution ; Mr. Sergeant Ballantine, in-
structed by Messrs. Tilleard and Co., Old Jewry, defended
the Messrs. Barry ; and Mr. Lewis, jun., and Mr. Moss the
three other prisoners, Thorne, Arnett, and Sedgwick.
John Still, a clerk to Messrs. Barry, was called, and proved
that the signature " Barry Brothers " to a list of goods
destroyed by fire on the 7th of June at their wharf was in
the handwriting of Mr. Alfred Barry, the list itself being
in that of a clerk named Duckett. The cargo ledger pro-
duced, so far as it related to the cargo of the Sebastian
Cabot, from Calcutta, showed, he said, under the date of the
Ist of August, 1863, that the entire importation of jute by
that vessel was 500 bales. There was afterwards written off
that number certain quantities which had been delivered
(110 bales in all) down to October, leaving 390 out of the
500 ; and the 390 were represented to have been destroyed
by fire on the 7th of June. The warehouse report-book of
Messrs. Barry, of the date of the 17th of August, 1864,
showed that 164 bales of jute, with distinctive marks, by the
Sebastian Cabot, had been removed from No. 1 warehouse
into the barge Susan ; 48 bales by the ship Raleigh, 74 by
the William Cole, and 10 by the Alameda. The entries, he
said, were in Arnett's handwriting.
By Mr. Sergeant Ballantine—After the second fire there
was a great deal of confusion on the wharf. The books had
to be carried away in baskets and bags. He could only
speak of the entries as to jute, and not as to the disposal of
the jute.
Josiah Page, who had been in the service of Messrs.
Barry, and who gave the information to the insurance offices
which led to their arrest, and that of their servants, was
recalled by Mr. GiffOrd. He said he was engaged in break-
ing down certain bales of jute by the Sebastian Cabot, and
assisted in putting them into a barge called the Cat. That
was about six or seven weeks after the fire. The barge
was brought under the door of the warehouse No. 1 for the
purpose, and ho tallied the bales with chalk on the back of
the door. He had since pointed out the door on which he
chalked the tallies to Haydon, a detective officer, the tallies
being still visible.
By Mr. Sergeant Ballantine—He had been in the offices of
Msssrs. Barry since they were in custody. He could not
say he was there alone. He went there to see the police-
officers. They had sent for him, and after remaining for
some minutes he was told he was not wanted.

Detective Sergeant Haydon proved that since the last
examination he went to warehouse No. 1 with the witness
Fage, who pointed out to him a chalk tally on the door.
It was written with abbreviations as regarded the names
of the vessels by which the jute alleged to have been put
into the barge Susan had arrived, but these explained it
appeared that of the jute so disposed of 164 bales had come
by the Sebastian- Cabot, 48 by the Raleigh, 74 by the Wil-
liam Cole, and 10 by the Alameda.
Mr. Charles Crowther, examined by Mr. Giffard—l am
a merchant at 50, Lime-street, and was formerly in the ser-
vice of Messrs. Barry, as managing clerk. I kept the cargo
ledger, invoice books, and others. I left them 10 years ago,
and have for the last six years been in the habit of buying
various commodities of them. During 1864 I bought
several things of them. I have my cash-book and check-
book here. I produce two checks of my own, one dated
the 22d of August last for £2OO, and another on the
27th of September for £249165. 11d. They were paid by
me to Messrs. Barry, and afterwards returned to me as paid
through my bankers. There are also one for £77 4s. 4d.
dated the 27th of October, 1864, and another for £2OO dated
the sth of December. Those also were sent by me to Messrs.
Barry, and afterwards returned to me through my bankers
as paid. They refer to sweepings bought by me of them,
of which I produce certain memoranda. They were made
at the time of the various purchases. " Linseed, clean
samples," mentioned in one of them, are not sweepings.
The entries are as I bought the goods. I cannot tell whether
they were all sweepings. One item refers to commodities
that were thrown on their hands, and were not sweepings.
Duplicates of- the memoranda were sent by me to Messrs.
Barry at the times to which they refer. One contained
an entry as to 171 cwt. of loose jute purchased in Sep-
tember last by me. I arrived at the quantities by the
delivery-notes brought by the carmen of Messrs. Barry.
I did not keep the delivery orders. The course of busi-
ness would be this. Mr. Alfred Barry would see me on the
corn market and show me samples, and I would after-
wards arrange the price with him. He would then give
me a memorandum, for which I should have to get a
pass-note, and upon presenting the pass-note the goods
would be delivered. There were no invoices. The doing
business by me in that way without invoices is only with
Messrs. Barry. From others I have invoices sometimes. I
refer to the counterfoils of the checks I have mentioned.
The checks for £2OO and for £249 odd refer to the goods
mentioned in the first 11 memoranda. The two other checks
for £2OO and £77 4s. 4d. relate to the goods in the remaining
documents. That left a balance due to Messrs. Barry by me
of £45 odd. I have not paid them that, because I have an
account against them for about £3O. I see an entry in the
cashbookof Messrs. Barry of the 27th of August last, " Sal-
vage and contingencies, C. Crowther, £lOO. Wages account
not passed through bankers, £100." I cannot say what that re-
fers to; I have not the least idea. I did not pay th em £lOO on
the 27th August, nor did they pay me any money on that day.
I don't know anything of a sum of " £l3 ss. Bd., per C.
Crowther, for salvage and contingencies, October 31 ;" nor
of "Wages account, per C. Crowther, £166 11s. 3d." The
check for £249 16s. 11d. refers to several transactions men-
tioned in 11 of the documents I have produced. I do not
know of any sum passing between me and Messrs. Barry for
" salvage and contingencies, per C. Crowther, £66 108.,
Dec. 7, 1864 ;" nor for "X 133 10s. wages account." I know
of no such transactions. On October 31, I did not receive a
check frcm Messrs. Barry for £249 16s. 11d., nor any check
about that time ; nor on Jan. 30 last a check for £2OO. I
never received any check for a salvage and contingency
account.

By Mr. Sergeant Ballantine—There was a considerable
amount of refuse at Messrs. Barry's wharf always from

seed ; that is the case at all such wharfs, and " sweePings
is a perfectly well understood and recognised term. I have
had no transactions with the Messrs. Barry since the fire fit
November. I received a check from them in December last
but that was in respect of transactions before the fire. Jute is
always sampled on the wharf and kept for a certain time, and
in case of any damage the wharfinger has had to bear the
loss, and then the damaged commodities remain in his Pea...-
session. Sometimes articles are not ready at hand, and they
require to be reinstated. That frequently happened 'when-
I was there. In those cases the wharfinger would have to
pay the value, and if the goods were afterwards found they
would become his property. To the best of my belief thathe
is a usual practice at similar wharves. These are
largest seed warehouses in the metropolis. They were
,t
NrerY
largo when I was employed there, and they have since bona
greatly extended. The articles I bought always Feclnire
sifting and cleaning. I have never bought a bale of soon
jute of them that I remember.
Mr. Alex. Rose (Rose, Wilson, and Graham), Thread-
needle-street, was recalled. He had heard the evidence of the
last witness as to missing and damaged goods.
own firm frequently received checks from Messrs.BerrY,l
claims which they had made on them on account of here
or damaged goods. In a large warehouse like theirs the':
would be necessarily always a great quantity of sweerogld
Witness's firm had frequently put up by auction s
sweepings and damaged goods lying at the wharf a mess-
Barry. On these occasions a regular catalogue was Printed'
and the auction was quite public.
By Mr. Giffard—lt was only customary for wharfingerS
to deal in goods thrown on their hands; they could dealhely
in
themselves. It was not usual for a wharfinger to
goods. Sweepings might be out of 20 or 30 ships. lie eiwil
witness's
call 900 quarters of sweepings a large quantity in one Year'
purely sweepings. He remembered one of the dock coo'
a pnies selling NO quarters in six months on one occasion.
By Mr. Serjeant Ballantine--" Sweepings" might leeincie a.,
damaged goods and parcels. Besides being a wha6sg.' d
Mr. Alfred Barry was an assayer of seed, and was eutittei
as such, to half a bushel out of a certain quantity ei
adulterated and sample seeds, and that would after-or:
belong to him.
Benjamin George Hogg, a carman, deposed that Withill„
the last year he had often conveyed jute and other goals fa'
Mr. Crowther from Meriton's-wharf to his depot at IforeelY"
down.
Mr. Crowther was recalled, and, in reply to Mr. Le
said the goods referred to by the carman were those he
purchased at Meriton's-wharf. lgtfl
Mr. Lewis, to the Bench—l only want to show hew
inquiry is being prolonged for no earthly purpose. hero
Mr. Edwin Radmall, managing clerk to Messrs. rt, ' t
and Brown, assessors of fire offices, said he reeefr' at
Meriton's-wharf the list produced of the goods destreYe f
the June fire. In that list it was stated that 390 baleso of
jute by the Sebastian Cabot were destroyedby the firel d
list, errors and omissions excepted, was afterwards reiciti°f..
to Messrs. Barry, and after they had made certaill no the
tions and alterations to it the list was sent back. ,1„ f
warehouse book of Messrs. Barry he found no of
sales to Mr. Charles Crowther but he found 60 eittorio.4.
deliveries by the carman Hogg. In no case was sth
'lose
ther's name mentioned in the book in connexion with "