The Sun.
London, England, 1862-03-04 00:00:00

SUPPLY.-THE ARMY ESTIMATES.

The house then went into Committee of Supply. Mr.
MASSEY in the chair.

Sir G. C. LEWIS rose to introduce the army estimates.
lie said, Mr. Massey—Sir, although we enter annually a
constitutional protest against tho institution of a standing
army, although we annually recite in our Mutiny Act that
it is contrary to the liberties of this country to maintain a
standing army without the consent of Parliament, still I

think that this must be considered as substantially a con-
stitutional fiction, and we must regard a standing army as
belonging to the permanent institutions of the country, not
less than the navy, and not less than the machinery for the
collection of the rovenue. It is true not only that we have

a standing array in substance, but this is one of the most
expensive of the institutions which we maintain. Taking
at present the total expenditure of the country at about
£70,000,000, of which £26,200,000 may be referred to the
interest of our debt, the charge for the army alone this year
amounts to £15,302,000. With the militia, it amounts to
£16,250,000 ; leaving for all the other branches of the ex-
penditure a sum of £27,550,000. So that the expense of our
army and militia is about £16,000,000, as compared with
£27,000,000, the rest of our expenditure, minus the debt.
The committee therefore sees that in voting the army esti-
mates, they deal with a very large portion of that expendi-
ture of the country which is within the control of Parlia-
ment. It is true, as my hon. friend lately pointed out,
that this expenditure has increased of late years; and in
moving the first vote of the estimate now on the table, that
vote which contains the number of men, and therefore sub-
stantially determines the character of the whole estimate,
it will be my endeavour, as fax as I am able, to furnish the
committee with an answer to this questiou, why has the
army estimate increased of late years, and why has it
reached the sum of £15,302,000, which is the amount
which it is my duty to ask the house to agree to in the pre-
sent session r Well, I think I can, without occupying any
unreasonable amount of the time of the committee, fur-
nish them with an answer to that question, and without
troubling them with any great amount of detail in figures,
which are always distasteful to listen to. In order to make
this matter clear to the committee, I will, with their per-
mission, go back to a year as remote as 1789, which was the
year in which the great French Revolution broke out. In
that year the total number of men for the British and Irish
establishments—which were then separate—was 43,395.
The total sum voted for the army, ordnance, and commis-
sariat in that year was £2,981,000. It was £2,428,000 for
Great Britain, and £552,000 for Ireland. Now that was
the whole amount of our army estimates; it was not quite
£3,000,000. That was the whole amount of expenditure for
military purposes in Great Britain and Ireland in the first
year of the French revolution. As the committee knows,
we shortly afterwards embarked in a great war, which
lasted many years, upon which the existence of this nation
depended, in which we carried on a gigantic struggle
against the power of Napoleon, both by land and sea, which
rendered it necessary that the whole of our military organi-
sation should be developed to its utmost, and that all the
nerves of the country should be strained, in order to in-
crease our army to the highest amount which the finances
of the country could bear. lam anxious to call the atten.,
tion of the committee to the effect of that war on the num-
bers and expense of our army. In the year 1819 the number
of men for the army had risen to a little over 80,000, and for
the ordnance to 7,848 ; making a total of 88,682—that is to
say, the number of men rose to about double since 1789. The
total amount of the army estimate, including the ordnance
and commissariat, in the year 1818, was £10,307,000,
Therefore, the number of our army had increased
from 43,000 in the year 1789—we may say in consequence
of this great war—to 88,000 in the year 1818-19, and the ex-
pense of the army had increased from about £3,000,000 to
about £10,000,000. At that amount our army remained
without any substantial alteration until 1831. My hon.
friend read some figures about the year 1830. I will give
a correct statement, including all the items necessary,
for the year 1832. In that year the number of men voted
was 97,949, and the total amount of expenditure was
£8,399,000. That shows no material difference from the
year 1818. Now I come to the year with which I propose to
make my comparisons, which is the year almost immediately
preceding the Crimean war—the year 1852-3. In that year
the number of men was 119,000 ; the total expenditure was
£9,021,000. I wish the committee to observe that our
tary expenditure underwent a great increase in consequence
of the French war, which began in the year 1792 and ended
in 1816, and then it remained tolerably stationary until the
year preceding the Crimean war. There is no doubt that the
deficiencies in our military system which were disclosed by
the events of that war have led to a considerable increass in
the amount of our army and the expense of our establish-
ments. For instance, the number to be voted in the present
year is 145,000, and the sum to be voted is £15,302,000 as
compared with the figures which I have stated in the yea'
immediately preceding the Crimean war. Thelesson which I
think this comparison teaches is, that in.the same manner as
the French war led to a great development of our military
system, and showed the deficiency under which our army
then laboured, and thereby produced a permanent increase
in the charge for the army, so the Crimean war produced a
similar effect, and had led to a permanent increase in the
cost of our military system, both by making a permanent
addition to the strength of the army, and also by rendering
necessary certain additions intended to provide for the effi-

ciency of the army. There is another circumstance to which
I must advert in accounting for the increase of our mili-
tary system since the commencement of the Crimean war
—which is, the change that has taken place in the
political institutions. of France ; and all persons, I
think, who are conversant with the sentiments of those
who occupied a prominent place in public affairs during
the first fifteen years of this century will admit that
the predominant object of their policy was, so long
as they had any control over affairs of state, to maintain
and, if possible, to increase the chances of the continuance
of peace. They had lived through a period of most disas-
trona warfare, and the great object of all the statesmen of
that generation, both in this country and on the continent,
was to increase, multiply, and strengthen the securities for
peace, and to contribute to its permanence. But after a
time a generation has grown up which has no personal re-
collection of the French revolutionary war; and, moreover,
the restored dynasty of France was by its origin naturally
attached to a pacific policy. They owed their throne to the
assistance of the other powers of Europe ; their security

was to a great extent to be found in the support of the rest
of Europe, and the last thing to be expected was that the
restored Bourbon dynasty of France should revive the wars
of the French empire. But as soon as the Napoleonic
dynasty was restored in France the ideas of the empire
naturally
i tdrhueeva
lipvtvee dile.
wishes
st I
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ndmodp n
opinions,e
ro
ot r foars
af
a rlmoment
is a°essentially that
t dpolicyoubta thatpdeeapee
peaceful
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policy, and that he is well inclined to maintain a cordial
understanding with this country. But we must remember
that he lives in the midst of a population which is influ-
enced by the opinions which the restoration of his dynasty
has set in motion ; that such books as the history of M.
Thiors naturally have great influence in that country, and
that the ideas of restoring tne naturalboundaries of France
as they existed under the restoration and as the empire
found them. may not unnaturally be expected to be
pressed with great force on the Emperor. My own opi-
nion is that we have nothing to fear from ill feeling on
the part of the Emperor of the French towards this coun-
try. (Hear, hear.) My belief is that we have everything

to expect from his good wishes ani icclinations ; but we must
bear in mind the circumstances by which he is surrounded,
and a prudent statesman must guard against dangers which
must be admitted to be not without foundation. Looking to
the alteration in the state of Europe, and the great exten-
sion which our military system received during the Crimean
war, I find an explanation of the increase in our military
establishment. I think the committee will not be of opinion
when they come to examine the details of these estimates,
'large no doubt as some of the items are, that they are larger
than the interests of the cop aft y d emand. Having attempted
to explain the general foundation of this large estimate, I
will now show that there are certain circumstances which
make the apparent amount larger than the real amount. In
the first place there has been brought into this estimate—
as has been explained before we went into committee—for

the first time a charge for the Indian depots and recruiting
the Indian army. That charge never before appeared in the
estimate, and therefore that increase is apparent, and not
rear. The total amount of the repayments which it is esti-
mated will be received from the Indian Government in the
course of the year—an amount which is only estimated,for
we do not know the exact figures—is I think about
£1,000,000. A part of that sum has been previously oct off
in the shape of payments for the non-cffeCtive service, but
the whole of the vaymonto for the effective service, which
10 c.timated to amount to £730,000, appears for the first
time as a set off against this awn, Therefore from the
£15,300,000 I have to deduct £730,000, and that leaves
£14,572,000. That sum, the committee will see, is rather
less than the estimate of last year without the supplemen-
tary estimate. But in order to make a fair comparison
with the estimates of last year I must add £35,000 for ad-
ditional expenses to Canada, which will have to 'be in-
curred in consequence of the recent expedition, and which
are included in this estimate. Then I must add £170,000
for New Zealand, also not included in last year's. estimate,
and £.50,000 for China, which last sum was included in the
vote of credit. That leaves a sum of £14,009,000, which
i sthe amount that must be taken to make the comparison
with last
.last year a fair one. Making these deductions, then,
therei
s a reduction in the present estimate of £630,000.
Therefore, though there is a large increase compared with
the amount of
the year immediately preceding the Crimean
war, it is by no means
extravagant as compared with the
estimate of l
amount of mast
en, and firl shall now call attention to the
much depends on that. st : to their distribution, because
o
armies of continental stateaminZ eT is essentially unlike the
A large part of it is permanently abroad.e foreign possessions.
tear of men created thereby is considerable. Thewe44.
and
rable.with regard
to thyrrussian army, for hut= '
ce, It "'mid be much fairer

to compare our militia with that army, because they are not
exposed to the destructive influences to which the regular
army is exposed in such climates as India and Canada. The
number of men of all arms in this country, including in-
fantry, cavalry, and artillery, is 81,614, and including the
Indian depots, 89,238. The number of our men in stations
in Europe is 17,048. In Asia, excluding India, 8,185; in
Africa, including the islands, 7,2331; in America, 24,289,
which is larger than usual in consequence of the reinforce-
ments lately sent there ; in Australia, excluding New
Zealand, 12,034 ; in New Zealand by itself, 3,965; in India,
75,899 (but this number will shortly be reduced)—making a
total, including India, of 227,159. The committee will imme-
diately see from the great number of the stations at which the
men are placed the difficulty which exists in making any
considerable reduction in the number of men. We propose,
in consequence of some addition to our settlements on the
coast of Africa, to add a fourth West India regiment.
Three West India regiments already in existence have been
reduced from 10 to 8 companies; and the cost of the whole
four will not be much in excess of the three. The recruiting
for the army has been stopped since last autumn, and the
committee will see that the number of men proposed this
year is less than that of last year. There is, however, one
point in these estimates which may excite remark. I allude
to the increase in the number of the staff. (Hear.) I dare
saym
wishinganyhon. gentlemen will say this has resulted from
undue influence on the part of the Horse Guards, who are
always
to increase the staff. I think I can satisfy
the committee that there is no real increase, and that it is
merely nominal, with the exception of a small addition to
the medical staff, made for the purpose of the Canadian
forces, it being thought desirable to send out some additional
men to North America in the event of war occurring.
There were then ten officers added to the medical staff. 230
have been tranferred from 7to the military store account.
Formerly the stare officers had no commissions, but now they
had commissions. Comparing the pay of some of the princi-
cipal branches of the army as it was in 1853-54 with the
present year, it will be seen, confining ourselves to the vote
of pay and allowances, that there is an actual diminution
since the former period. I will give the committee a com-
parative statement for certain branches of the army, taking
the pay at so much per head. In 1853.4 the Life Guards and
Horse Guards had £66 4s. 2d. per man, in the present year
they are to have £5B 9s. 4d. The cavalry of the line had
£45 13s. in the last year, this year they will have/38 28.4 d.
The Foot Guards received then £36 7s. 3d., against £32
16s. .sd. The infantry of the line received then £2B 16s. 9d.,
as against £27 ls. 11d, this year. Therefore, whatever may
be the increase in the expenditure of the army, there has
been none in the pay and allowances. But although that is
the case, the condition of the men has been improved, as I
will presently show. One cause of the increased expendi-
ture has been the new establishments of different sorts con-
nected with the army. In the first place, since the Crimean
war military trains have been created, which is an entirely
new branch. The army hospital corps and the commissa-
riat staff corps are entirely new. Great additions have like-
wise been made to the commissariat and medical staff offi-
cers, and the purveyor's department has been almost en-
tirely reorganised. Those are important departments of
the army, tending materially to its efficiency, but of course
attended with increased expense. There had also been of
late a great increase in the charge for gunpowder. The
amount of practice in infantry regiments is certainly a new
feature ; we give it to the volunteers, and besides the experi-
ments with the great guns consume an immense quantity. I
cannot say how much each explosion cost at the recent expe-
riments with Sir W. Armstrong's 300-pounder. Again there
is a large increase in miscellaneous stores. Government is
obliged to keep pace with scientific discovery, and hence the
experiments which are often so costly. At this moment there
is a large party who think that the Enfield rifle should be
discarded and the Whitworth substituted, when the ex-
pense would be enormous, and we should therefore be nu
willing to incur it ; but still we must say that no useful
improvement is neglected in ours, whilst adopted in foreign
armies. I believe I have now put the house in possession
of all the facts that relate to the efficiency of the army.
General PEEL complained of the omission from the esti-
mates of regular debtor and creditor accounts with regard
to our manufacturing establishments, and in his opinion the
comparisons which were drawn of the men voted from year
to year for the army at home and in India were fallacious.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said the new arrangement for the re-
payment of moneys by the Indian government was made
during last session after the estimates were voted ; therefore
it was not possible to make any other arrangement for this
year ; nevertheless, a new mode of payment was introduced,
and with regard to the effective services it was made a mat-
ter of account between the War Department and the India
Department. The money was paid over directly to the War
Department under the authority of the Treasury. The pre-
sent India establishment was rather under 80,000 men.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said he felt strongly disposed to
propose a reduction of the force mentioned in this vote, but
he was aware he should receive no support from the com-
mittee. (Hear, hear.) The standing army and the auxi-
liary forces of different kinds, and the army in our various
dependencies, were in the aggregate equal to any army of
any military power on the continent. It was quite a new
thing for England to have such a large standing army.
Colonel NORTH said, if our army had only to defend
England, the hon. member might have cause to complain,
but he should rememter that it was sent to America and all
other parts of the world, and that being so it was not so
large as other armies.
Mr. WHITE wished his hon. friend the member for
Lambeth had moved a reduction of 10,000 men. (" Hear,
hear," and laughter, and cries of "Move.") Well, then,
he would move that the number of men be reduced by
10,000.

Colonel NORTH asked the hon. member from what part
of the army he would take these men ? (Cries of "Order.")
The committee then divided, when there appeared :
For the amendment
Against it
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of £5,355,596 for pay and money allowances
for land forces,
Major KNOX said that in moving that the vote be re-
duced by £1,038 14s. 7d., the amount of pay and allow-
ances to the general commanding the brigade of Guards in
London, he had no intention of attacking the Guards, but,
on the contrary, believed that the real enemies of that
force were those who opposed a similar motion last year,
when the vote was only carried by three in a small house.
This appointment was first created to make a place for a noble
lord who had just returned from the Crimea. (Hear.) It
was held by him for five years, and as long as the five years
lasted nothing was said about it, but on their termination
the matter was broached in the house, and a strong feeling
evinced in regard to it. The noble lord at the head of the
Government said the reason for having a major-general to
command the Guards was that it produced unity of com-
mand, instead of that command being bandied about from
one officer to another. The strange part of the matter, how-
ever, was, that while he received major-general's pay, the
major-general who was at Aldershot only received briga-
dier's yay. An hon. and gallant general (General Upton)
had said that, as far as the discipline of the Guards was
concerned, such an officer was not required, and that they
got on quite as well before as after the appointment.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said the creation of the office had
really been described as a job to provide an appointment for
a noble lord who had formerly been in the Guards ; but
Lord Rokeby was not now brigadier-general of the Guards.
The appointment was at present held by Gen. Crawford ;
and if it had been simply created for Lord Rokeby, he pre-
sumed it would have been abolished when he vacated the
office. (Oh, oh.) At all events the question was whether
there existed any public ground for the appointment. He
had no reason to believe that it had been created for an in-
dividual. The military authorities of the day became aware
of the defective organisation of the Guards, and this office
was then created for sufficient reasons, to remedy that evil.
He trusted therefore that the committee would not be led
away by the arguments of the hon. and gallant gentleman
who had made this motion.
The committee then divided—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority --50
The vote was then agreed to.
£708,892 miscellaneous charges.
Mr. WHITE asked whether the men 'had any share in
the increase of £7,000 under the head of field allowances ?
Sir G. C. LEWIS said there were allowances made under
the authority of a Royal warrant to officers serving in the
field.

The vote was then agreed to.
On a vote of £211,677 for the volunteer corps,
Lord ENFIELD wished to know what the increase in
the force was this year, as compared with the last.
Mr. WILLIAMS sail that in this vote there was a charge
of £3 per man for yeomanry cavalry. This seemed to him
a very heavy charge.
Lord LOVAINE wished for a return of the number of
effective volunteers, and of the days on which they had
attended drill.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said there already existed materials for
supplying the information the noble lord desired. With re-
spect to the union of the yeomanry with the volunteers, it
seemed to him more convenient that the votes should be
taken together.
Col. KNOX said that, considering the sum voted for the
yeomanry force, and with the example of the volunteer
officers serving without any charge upon the state, the yeo-
manry officers should at le., st not ask for any increased pay.
Mr. W. E. FORSTER feared that unless some assist-
ance were given in the refitment of volunteers when the
present uniform was worn out, the numbers would fall off
tfrom want of means. He did not ask that the volunteers
should be paid, but certainly something should be done to
o meet the uniform difficulty.
Lord A. VANE said he did net mean that the volunteers
should be paid, but he thought that some assistance should
be given towards the expense of uniform. If the Govern-
ment did not come forward to help the volunteer movement
in this point, he believed it was likely to die out.
Mr. BUCHANAN, speaking for Scotland, could assure
the Government that if something were not very soon done
for the volunteers, the fore° would rapidly waste away.
The vote was agreed to.
Committee to be resumed on Thursday next.
INpIA STOCK TRANSFER BILL.
This bill was read a third Ow and passed,

EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
MERCHANDISE MARKS BILL.
Sir F. GOLDSMIDT objected to the further progress of
the bill.
After a few words from Mr. GIBSON,
The bill was read a second time.
OFFICERS COMMISSIONS BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
CHURCH RATES.

On the motion of Sir C. DOUGLAS the Church Rates
Abolition Bill was also posfponed till the 14th May.
On the motion of Mr. NE WDEGATE the Church Rates
Commutation Bill was also postponed to the 14th May.
The house adjourned at five minutes to 1 o'clock.

ASSIZE INTELLIGEACE.

OXFORD CIRCUIT.-OXFORD, MARCH 3.

Mr. Justice Crompton arrived in this city yes-
terday from Reading, and was met at the station by
the High Sheriff in the old English style. His
lordship proceeded to open tha commission with
the usual formalities.

Mr. Justice Crompton and Mr. Baron Channell
'yesterday attended divine service at St. Mary's, and
this day took their seats in court at 10 o'clock, Mr.
Baron Channell presiding in the Civil Court, and
Mr. Justice Crompton in the Criminal Court.
el The cause list contains an entry of four causes.
The calendar contains the names of 23 prisoners,
one of whom is charged with wilful murder, three
with firing farm buildings, and the rest with
offences of an ordinary description, chiefly larceny.

CIVIL COURT.
(Before Mr. Baron Channel and Common Judea.)

POTTER AND ANOTHER V. MEDDOWS.
Mr. Huddleston, Q.C., and Mr. Dowdeswell ap-
peared for the plaintiffs; and Mr. Sergeant Pigott
and Mr. Phipson, Q.C., for the defendant.
The plaintiffs in this action were William Potter,
the surviving trustee of the late Robert Potter, the
elder, and John Meddows, the heir-at-law of Robert
Potter, the younger; and they brought the present
action in ejectment against Hannah Eliza :Med-
dows, the widow of Robert Potter, the younger, to
recover possession of a farm, consisting of 45 acres
of copyhold land of the manor of Horley and Horn-
ton. It appeared that, by the will of Robert Pot-
ter, the elder, made on February 5, 1854, the tes-
tator devised the lands in question, charged with
certain annuities, to trustees, their heirs, &c., to
carry on the farm till the said Robert Potter, the
younger, should attain the age of 25; and, charged
as aforesaid, the trustees were to stand seised of the
said lands to the use of the said Robert Potter, the
younget. The testator died on the 6th of April,
1854, and the trustees were admitted as tenants of
the manor; and the son, Robert Potter, having at-
tained the age of 25, took possession of the lands in
1859, but died without issue and intestate on the
23c1 of August, 1860, and without having been ad-
mitted. His widow continued in possession, and
claimed a life interest in his copyhold lands, by the
custom of freebench, which she alleged was a cus-
tom of the manor. The plaintiffs were the sur-
viving trustee of Robert Potter, the elder, and
the brother of Robert Potter, the younger,
who claimed the lands as heir-at-law. Two
questions were :raised—viz., first, whether the
custom of freebench existed in the manor of Horley
and Hornton ; and, secondly, whether as the Sta-
tute of Uses does not apply to copyhold land, the
defendant's late husband, Robert Potter, the
younger, died so seised of the property that the
custom of freebench would attach. As the property
in dispute was but small, and the question of law
was likely to protract the litigation, it was sug-
gested that the parties should come to some ar-
rangement, but for a long time they were unable
to 'agree. Eventually the learned judge kindly
offered his mediation, and the counsel and parties
retired into his lordship's private room, where they,
came to an arrangement which was mutually satis-
factory, it being arranged that the heir-at -law
should have the estate, and the widow an annuity
for her life.
Mr. Baron Channell, on his return to court, told
the jury he thought the parties had acted wisely in
coming to an arrangement, under which each party
had given up something.
The jury were then discharged from giving a
verdict, and the cause was settled upon terms
agreed upon. _