The Sun.
London, England, 1862-02-25 00:00:00

HIE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 25, 1862.

the full number is enrolled the cost willnot quite reach that
amount. That £l3, however,"does not include any provi-
sion for pensions, The Royal Commission recommended
that a sum of money should be taken every year to be ap-
plied to the formation of a pension fund. The Government
considered that scheme, but its advantages were not found
to be such as to warrant its adoption. If we assume that
the proportion of men obtaining pensions will be the same
on the reserve as among the seamen of the navy, the cost of
pensions will average about £2 per man per annum. That,
of course, is merely speculation, because as yet none of the
men in the reserve have arrived at the age at which they
become entitled to pensions. I cannot pass from this sub-
ject without alluding to that vast scheme for officering the
reserve which the house approved last year. I am glad to
be able to inform the committee that the finest and best
officers of the merchant service are flocking into our
ranks. They are ambitious of serving their country, and I
believe that we shall shortly have as many officers as we
are authorised by Parliament to engage. It, therefore,
becomes a most important question as to what is to
be the future of these reserves, especially as concerns their
officers. Government have done everything that could be
done in the way of giving full opportunities for drill—that
is to say, by establishing at the principal ports drill ships,
superintendents of drill, and all that is requisite for that
purpose, But what we can do in that respect must ever be
limited to manual exercise at the gun. That which is essen.
tial to make a real gunner is target practice, and for that it
is impossible that the Government can provide. I think it
would be worthy of consideration in the future whether,
when one of these officers has studied the higher branches
of gunnery, has proved himself competent to manage a gun,
and has got a crew of naval reserve men, we might not sup-
ply a gun to his ship, exactly as they are supplied to the
Volunteer Artillery upon the coast. (Hear.) I throw
that out for future consideration, because it is of immense
importance that you should teach your gunners. If they
are to be useful in action they must have been taught to
fire at a target ; manual exercise can only be a very incom-
plete instruction for a gunner. I have stated that we have
to-day more than 10,000 Naval Volunteers, we have like-
wise of Coast Volunteers 8,000. Taking the total reserve
force available for the defence of the country, irrespective
of the fleet which is afloat, we have 40,800 men ready to go
on board our ships if any emergency required their pre-
sence. And in making that statement I have made the
proper deductions for the men belonging to the naval re-
se'-ve who are on distant stations, and therefore could not
be counted upon within, say, six mouths. Adding to this
number our force in commission, we have a total force of in
round numbers 95,000 men. I believe that we are at last
approaching a satisfactory state as regards our force afloat
and our reserve. (Hear, hear.) I now turn to another
matter which is of vital and growing interest—the force of
boys which is maintained as a nursery for the navy.
We maintain, at the present time, 9,500, of whom 6,500
are in the fleet, 500 are in the Coast-guard ships, and
2,500 are in the training ships. We have at the pri-
cipal ports five training ships, on board of which are
2,500 boys, and attached to these ships are for-
brigs, on board of which the lads are taken to practise them
in seamanship.
Sir J. PAli INGTON.—Are the five training ships of the
class recommended by the Commission ?
Lord C. PAGET.—Yes, certainly, they are line-of-battle
ships ; the Caledonia is one. These boys will, I believe,
become a most superior class of sailors. They are well
educated, and will turn out some of the most valuable men
in the fleet, but they are very costly. I desire to impress
this cost upon the committee, because we are daily receiving
requisitions from the great merchant ports, asking the
Government to undertake the education of their boys.
(Hear.) The Admiralty are fully sensible of the importance
which is to be attached to the education of boys in the mer-
chant navy, but, seeing how heavy our Naval Estimates
are, I think that we are perfectly right in deferring a hat is
called the second boy scheme of the Royal Commission un-
til we can show some greater reduction in our normal ex-
penses. These boys—and again if any hon. member chooses
to move for the detailed return, which will be found very
interesting, I shall be glad to lay it upon the table—cost us
nearly £45 per head per annum. The annual cost of each
boy is within £5 of that of a marine, and within £l5 of that
of a seaman in the fleet. It is interesting to inquire how
many seamen these boys supply per annum. We calculate
that the waste of boys from discharge, death, desertion, and
other causes, amounts to about 7 per cent. per annum ; and
taking the average period of training at three years and a
half—they enter from 14 to 18—it gives us in rornd num.
hers 2,500 boys per annum becoming seamen for the sup-
ply of the Royal Navy. (Hear, hear.) It is very remark-
able what a small proportion of the whole number borne
on the books is formed by the petty officers and seamen.
Out of a total force of 76,000, including the Coastguard,
we have only 40,000 petty officers and seamen. My hon.
friend the member for Lambeth, who takes an interest in
the subject of corporal punishments, will be glad to hear
that there has been a reduction in the number of deser-
tions in the navy ; so that, instead of taking 12 per cent.
for waste, as I did when I brought this subject before the
committee last year, I need only take 11 per cent, this year.
(Hear.) On the force of 40,000 the percentage would there-
fore be about 4,400. Of these vacancies 2,500 are supplied by
boys, leaving 1,900 seamen to be obtained from other sources.
These details are important when considering how far we
ought to carry the boy system—a subject which has much
engaged the attention of the Admiralty. Knowing the fine
class of boys we can turn out, this deficiency is very tempt-
ing; but the question is, ought we not to keep up a steady
flow of seamen from the merchant service, in order that the
distance and difference between us may vanish and be over-
come ? (Hear, hear.) The Admiralty therefore consider the
number of boys to be very much w hat is required for feed-
ing the navy. As we are now happily at peace, and as I
trust things on all sides look as if we need no longer enter-
tain apprehensions of war, I think this may be a moment
when the house will permit me to make some few remarks
with regard to the condition of the seamen. My lamented
friend Lord Herbert, when he brought forward his Esti-
mates, used yearly to devote a considerable time to inform-
ing the committee how the soldiers fared in health, in posi-
tion, and in prospects. A most important indication of the
state of the navy lies in the health of the seamen. We have
returns of the mortality of the fleet. The death-rate per
thousand is in some respects satisfactory, but in others, I
am sorry to say, such is not the case. As regards the home
station, the average is not above that of other public ser
vices—the police, soldiers, and so on ; it is about 10 per cent.
annually. But I regret to say that at some of the stations the
death-rate has been very high—as high as 60 per cent.
(Sensation.) These, I am bound to say, were exceptional
cases, such as in the Chinese war, where the men were sub-
ject to great exposure. But the average on the whole of the
navy is about 16 yer cent. per annum. The Admiralty have
been led seriously to consider whether some improvement
might not be made—in regard, first of all, to the food of the
seaman, and likewise with respect to the ventilation of their
sleeping places. (Hear, hear.) We have had a committee
sitting some time, and the result has been that the Admi-
ralty have decided to adopt every possible means of improv-
ing the ventilation of the ships. Hon. gentlemen who
have been on the lower deck of a frigate or line-of-battle
ship when the men are asleep will admit that the atmo-
sphere there is enough to provoke any kind of disease.
(Hear, hear.) We have received reports from some of the
large ships in the Mediterranean, showing that fatal dis-
eases, phthisis, and fevers, are but too prevalent; and a
principal cause of these is the crowded state of the decks.
This leads me to advert to what several gentlemen—my
gallant friend the member for Devonport among others—
alluded to as taking place, the reduction of the complement
of men in her Majesty's ships. We propose as a tentative
measure that on board of certain large ships in the fleet the
complement should be reduced in the following propor-
tions:—ln line of battle ships from 880 to 800. men; in
some of the frigates from 570 to 510; in the smaller fri-
gates from 350 to 310. The House last year, at the sugges-
tion of the Admiralty, allowed an establishment to be
formed at Deptford where beef could be both killed and
cured in our victualling yard. The operations there car-
ried on have been productive of the greatest comfort to the
seamen, but it is right to tell the House that its generosity
to the navy has not been unattended with expense. The
additional cost of providing first-rate beef is itself consider-
The meat now purchased would be fit for any gen-
tanan:a table, and contrasts forcibly with the old " maho-
i3otr were used to in our young days. (A laugh.)
beef.
;we
herocorned are other measures which the Admiralty are
to be hastaiering out, but these are matters requiring
betaseith the utmost consideration, delicacy,
and care
we know that seamen are always
somewhat auspicious
of the Admiralty. Ever since last
century it haa beer
practice in the navy for seamen
to receive alloweeeeathiee
was a premium on etaesartisolvings of provisions. But this
(Hear.) Instead of being
well fed, as we desire theta
especially require to be, the:: be, and as growing boys
Tatter, who are obliged to
submit to the rules of their
tfogether with the men,
actually save so much out of tlaeei fob in order that they
may spend the amount on [there:
reported ti::teitMedical Director-
General of the Navy has
men
if b would be greatly
conducive to the health of the
payYefalaty means that
system, which is connected with the
pay
ofu the
be done
therefore surrounded with great difficulties, eheelnavY' and
away with. I have often stated that the
above £3 a.month, taking info account all the elle:LI:2
they receive, and therefore higher than the pay of thelv -1;1—e -
chant service, though sailors in the latter will not believe it,
One can easily understand how this old 'fashioned system
grew out of the wants of the day. The payments to men
for their savings of -provisions were very natural when the
resources of the country were limited, and it was difficult to
purchase provisions ; but there is no similar object to bo
gained in the present day. I do trust, therefore, that
whether by the present Government or by that of my hon.
friend opposite some new scheme may be devised by which
the men may be paid on a more simple plan, so that they
will really know what they are receiving. Another in-
stance of the improving condition of our sailors is that they
have baked bread at sea, just as good as any gentleman can
have in London or Paris. (Hear.) It is very desirable to
afford the seamen soft bread instead of keeping them always
on biscuit,
speak in this way to show the committee that
we are alive to the deficiencies, and that things are gradu-
ally improving.
W 5 have received reports stating that the
greatest benefits had resulted from the distilling apparatus
which enables the men in the fleet to have pure water,

(Hear.) Now, as regards the education of our seamen.
(Hear.) Ought not our men to be educated as well as any
men of a similar class in this country? (Hear, hear.) I
can assure the committee that that desire of the governing
body in the navy is that they should be. It is quite true
that education has hitherto been given, but we called for
returns on the subject and could get none. We have had
schoolmasters for a great number of yea-s, but in most
cases they were men of an inferior class, and the scholars
could not have been expected to make much progress. How-
ever, we have applied to the Treasury lately for the means
of appointing schoolmasters of a superior class, and we trust
that education in the navy will be greatly improved. (Hear,
hear.) The Second Lord of the Admiralty has undertaken
to gather in all the statistics on this subject, in order that we
may be in a position to judge of the results of the improved
system. (Hear, hear.) I cannot pass over another subject
—namely, desertion. (Hear.) I hold in my hand a very
interesting return, to which I beg to call the attention of the
committee. It shows that a gradual improvement has been
taking place, sad that that improvement has not been
'checked since 1857, except in the year following that in
which the large bounty was given. In 1857 the desertions
amounted to 5 per cent. ; in 1858 they fell to 41 ; in 1859 to
4 ; in 1860 they jumped up to 51, but in 1861 they hadfallen
to 31. (Hear, hear.) From this return the committee will
perceive that the desertions had fallen one-half per cent.
each year with the exception of the year 1860. The high
bounty was given in 1859, and in that year many fellows
joined who ran away in the winter and spring following.
One more return and I will relieve the committee of this
branch of the subject. Corporal punishment in the navy
has also been on the decrease. (Hear, hear.) In 1857 it
was administered to 3 per cent. of the numbers in the fleet;
in 1858 to 21; in 1859 to 2; in 1860, the data of the last
return, to only 1 1-3 d. (Hear.) I think that is satisfactory;
but hon. members may wish to know the cause of the de-
crease in corporal punishments. (Hear, hear.) I may say
it is to be found partly in the fact that superior men are
coming in, but it may also be traced to the disinclination of
officers to inflict corporal punishment. (Hear, hear.) We
are to some extent substituting imprisonment fur corporal
punishment, butunder existing arrangements impeisonment
has its disadvantages, for by imprisonment in the ordinary
gaols many a fine seaman is thrown into contact with
immoral characters, who send him back contaminated.
(Hear.) What the Admiralty wish for is a naval prison,
governed by naval officers, and entirely under our own
eye. (Hear.) We expect that out of such a prison men
will come back to us improved instead of demoralised. I
can assure the house that the subject of naval barracks has
not been lost sight of. My hon. friend the member for
Portsmouth (Sir J. Elphinstone) has come down primed to
attack the Secretary to the Admiralty on this point—
(laught z)—but I do not think thit nay hon. friend can
have looked into the estimates. We admit the r: II:4 of
such establishments but with respect to this subject also
we bear in mind the Italian proverb—CM va piano va sane.
(Hear.) We propose to commence with the construction
a barracks at Devonport. No doubt my hon. f, lend would
rather we began at Portsmouth. (A. laugh.) This question
of barracks is one of immense interest. My late gallant
friend Sir C. Napier asked for barracks in order that our
seamen might not be kept for four or five months aboard
hulks while waiting to be put aboard the",- ships, bat I must
remind the committee that we out our ships in a week
now. Therefore, on that ground we have no need for bar-
racks, but we want them 'n oreer that our men may have
a tour on shore. (Hear.) It would be very desirable to
put them in barracks to go through a tour of duty, instead
of having them drunk about the streets of a town. (Hear.)
They would become more civilised, and we could accustom
them to duty. When we accomplish that, what will fol-
low? The organisation of the navy. (Hear.) What the
navy wants is organisation. Hon. gentlemen way have
read Sir F. Grey's pamphlet on the subject. I am not bound
to his or to any other particular scheme, but I do say that
the navy wants to be organised. When our frigates went
out men were put aboard of them ; but, to use the expres-
Nsioonw,owf
hallat whemw.amntemisbethra, tththeeyywaheroeuld‘ ckhnuockwedth"eiarbiohairpd3;
and that is what the hon. baronet (S.:' 7, Elphinstone)
wants. I now turn to the question of ships. I laid on the
table of the house some few days ago a return showing all
the ships now afloat and building. Hon. members may
have read that return; but it will be interesting to the
Public to know that on the Ist :nstant the number of screw
ships of the line afloat was 57, and the number on the stocks
4, giving a total of 61. The number of frigates was—screw,
37 afloat and 7 on the stocks ; paddle 9, making a total of 44
screws and 9 paddles. I will not detain the committee by
enumerating all the smaller vessels; but f he grand total of
our steam fleet was 580, composed of 525 afloat and 55 build-
ing or on the stocks. I think that my hon. friend the mem-
ber for Lambeth (Mr. Williams) w"1 admit t'iat that ;s
value for our money. (A laugh, and hear, hear.) We now
come to the question of the reduction of the armament of
the ships, and I entreat the attention of hon. gentlemen to
this subject. The Admiralty receive from various officers
reports that those very long steamships, with engines in the
centre, are liable to straining, and that in a great degree.
Now I know that some gentlemen, and among them naval
officers, are of opinion that this straining is attributable to
the ships being overmasted. I am not prepared to say that
this is not the case in some instances ; but what is manifest
is this—that they are over-weighted. Another thing which
the Admiralty have to consider is that we have introduced
Armstrong guns. Now, that means this—that you will
mount a few guns carrying heavy shot. It is found that a
100-pounder striking a vessel does more damage than two
50-pounders. That is the principle. Our ships, to make
any impression against iron-plated vessels, require very
heavy guns—in fact, you might as well throw marbles
against their iron sides as shots of any smaller calibre. It
was therefore necessary for the Admiralty to reconsider the
armament of ships. But again our present class of ships carry
nominally a great number of guns, but a great many of these
guns are utterly useless. You dare not fire them except
right abeam, for fear of doing damage to the rigging. They
will not trail in the least, and it is absolutely necessary
on that account that we should get rid of some of these
guns. Consider what an immense advantage it is to your
ship if you can lighten your weight of guns and gun car-
riages, and if you can keep up something like the weight of
shot thrown from your broadside. The result is, and I
repeat it is a tentative measure, that the Admiralty have
determined to try the experiment of reducing the
armament of some ships of each class. My right
hon. friend (Mr. Corry) has moved for a return which will
show in detail the reduction of the armament in every ship,
but it may be interesting that I should inform the house of
some of the changes made. The Revenge class of 91-gun
ship is the last type of the line-of-battle ships of our navy.
The original armament before the introduction of the Arm-
strong gun was 34 8-inch guns of 65 cwt., 36 32-pounders
of 56 cwt., 20 32-pounders of 45 cwt., and one 68-pounder,
making a total of 91 guns. The weight of these guns was
533 tons. (Mr. Corry—lncluding the gunners' stores ?)
Yes. The weight of the guns of the Revenge class of ships
—guns and gear—was 533 tons, carrying a broadside of
1,7801 b. weight. The present scheme gives 30 8-inch guns
of 65 cwt., 32 32-pounders of 56 cwt., two 33 pounders of
45 cwt., six 40-pounder Armstrong guns, and a 100-
pounder pivot Armstrong gun. So that the weight, instead
of being 533 tons, will only be 438 tons, being a saving of
100 tons in weight. Consider what a relief it is fora ship
to have 100 tons taken off her decks. (Hear, hear.) It is
true we sacrifice the weight of the shot of the broadside.
(Sir J. Pakington—How many guns on the old and new
principle ?) Seventy-one guns against 91, being a reduc-
tion of 20 in the complement of guns. We lose, I admit,
the difference in the weight of the broadside between
1,7801 b. as against I,4Bolb.—that is to say, we lose 300 lb.
in the broadside. (Hear, hear.) But that is made up by
the advantage of having a few very heavy shot. I will
not trouble the house any further on this head, as a
full return on the subject has been moved for
by my right hon. friend. I ought here to allude to
what has been said by my hon. friend the member
for Portsmouth (Sir J. Elphinstone), who complained that
if you reduce the masts and yards, you will prevent
the proper working of the ships. Here is a proof
that there need be no alarm on this subject. The
Ariadne has a larger area of sails, masts, and yards than the
Shannon, which is about to be reduced, yet the Ariadne
has 100 men less. But there has been no complaint that
the Ariadne cannot man the:spars and sails—at least, no
reason why there should be complaint. Complaints there
always are. Every naval officer wishes to obtain as many
men as possible for his ship. I always made a point of ap-
plying for more men ; but it is for the Admiralty to judge
in such cases. I now turn to our iron-cased ships, and it
will be interesting that I should give the house some infor-
mation as to their progress. [Sir J. Pakington—" What
was the cost of the Warrior? "J The cost of the Warrior,
including all except her armament, was £354,885. Her
armament besides is about £13,000. We have now in the
course of construction 15 iron-cased ships built and build-
ing, of which there will be, we hope, 11 afloat in the course
of the present year. (Hear, hear.) In the course of 1863
there will be 12 afloat—that is, one more—and in 1864
there will be 15, and in addition there will be a new ship,
provided the Committee agree to the construction of this
novel ship, to which I will presently allude. If the Com-
mittee desire it, I can give the tonnage and horse-power
connected with these vessels. The first class of ships, in-
cluding the Agincourt, the Minotaur, and the Northum-
berland, were agreed to last summer; they are in process
of building, and they will be ready in 1864. They are
400 ft. long, and it is expected they will attain a speed of
14 knots an hour. They will be of 6,621 tons. These
ships are of a peculiar build, as they carry their plating
neht round. The Warrior and other ships are
only partially plated up to a certain distance from
the bow
and
stern, but these vessels of the
largest class are to be plated right round. The
next class coespe
and about which
lee the Warrior (which has been at sea,
the Black shall have a few words to say presently),
plated, are of Prince,6.looandthe Achilles. They are partially
The next class of shi ins' es: and have a speed of 14 knots.
liant, each of 4,060 tons,
tawpirttes the Hector and the Va-
nest class includes the Resis
att~ apeed a S of 12 knots. The
are of 3,668 tons, and have udotthe Defence, which
next class is that of the Prince Consorltl,.4tshknots. Thee 0
Caledonia, the Royal Alfred, and the Royal Oak,en, the
were begun as line-of-battle ships, which are now whichbig
.
converted
to iron-plated frigates, and which are to be platedn
right round, Their tonnage is 4,045. They
_are wocpden

line-of-battle ships, and they are to be lengthened 12 or 15
feet. The Prince Consort and the Caledonia will have en-
gines of 1,000 horse-power, and an estimated speedof 12.41,
The Royal Alfred and the Royal Oak are of the same ton-
nage, with 800 horse-power and a speed of 11.52. I am
now obliged to ask the attention of the committee to a
totally novel class of vessel which we ask the committee to
consent to construct during this year. Every cne will re-
member the controversy with regard to the construction
of Capt. Coles's cupolas. Last year we carried on a series
of extensive experiments with one of these cupolas. We
put it on an old floa:lng battery; we tried firing from it,
and then we tried firing at it—and the result was that it
stood the most complete hammering without showing any
considerable signs of weakness. The Admiralty were so
impressed with this that they have since gone carefully into
the matter, and we are now preparing an improved cupola
—a double cupola—to carry two guns, And we are now pro-
posing to construct a ship which shall carry six of these
cupolas, She is to be of 2,529 tons, of 500 horse-power, and
will carry 12 breech-loading Armstrong 100 -pounder guns
in these Fix cupolas. Her length is 240 feet, and her draught
of water 20 feet. It is very important to consider whether
we cannot construct efficient armour-plated ships or consi•
derably less draught, and we propose to try the experiment
with Capt. Coles' vessel. She will have rather a singular
appearance, as she will have no masts whatever, and will
!rust entirely to steam. Ri2:ging is out of the question, as
it would deprive her of room for training her guns. She
is intended for coast derence, and ;7 she proves service-
able she will have this very great advantage over other
vessels—that her cost w.. 1 be much less. (Hear, hear.)
I hope, therefore, the committ -3 will consent 'o
our carrying out the plan. (Sir J. Pakington—What
will she cost ?) I should be glad to state the precise cost,
but it would be very disadvantageous to the public inteseit s
that contraetore should discover the cost of each sepasate
vessel. It is in order to prevent that we put the various
vessels in one vote. (Hen-.) I wish to Lay a wo:d as to
the Warrior. It is quite natural that a vessel of novel con •
stru6ion which everybody is watching should be made the
subject of evil reports and exaggerated statements. I will
therefore state what I know concerning her. We have re-
ceived a series of reports from Cap'. Cocb'ane (who is one
of the most skiiful and valuable offiser3 in the service), lau,;
they are not of an official character. I wish they were.
Everybody Plows what weather the WarZor hal to go
through. Capt. Cothran describes 1 as ti rrific. I; was
so very bad that even that noh'e vessel Led to lay-to. Eash
was the awful sea, th:t had she exceeled the rate of rour
knots an hour h • bowsprit would have gone ruder. In
spite of the gale, however, she arrived safely si Lisbon with
the exceptiun et' some trivial aecidents. A vessel that coald
go through such atrial is fit to go round the world. It has
teen Laid, however, that blie will not steer rropesly. It is
quite true that such was the case. In her coessarction a
tleial of immense !snportaare to the ship was nezlec.cd.
The yoke was fitted ' r such a meaner that the had not BC-
ficient play for her helm. In ships we usually give 36 de •
gsres each way for the helm to move is 7 Jilt is a quad-sn,
of 72 altogether, but in this C 1343 or'y 26 degrees s .ch way
were allowed. It, w:) only naiusal, :ber3f3se, ,bet the
'Warrior could not answer to her helm ; but that is the or'y
se)• us dear t in the vessel. I had the pieasuse of be' ig on
bead or her ou her fi:.3t cruse, and I must say she was the
most wonderful vessel in which I ever pr.' to sea. No Coabt
n the trough of the sea she h:s a tendency to ro'' • but she
i • fic; to go any where in the world. (Heat.) I have mace
these rem-k:3 because tbe.e ele ee,veral en-star reports
abroad on the subject which I believe are totally ss:thoet,
rouedatien. (Hear.) A series of experiments is to tabs
ilace next week, which will, in a great measure, dete:m'ne
the tature o f ou- i-on fleet. Orr present vessels, as you are
aware, cer y 4.• inch armour plater, backed by 18 inches of
teak. But we ere going to make some experiments on
Cap'air Coles' vessel to test the value of tbree proposals
which have been submitted to us. M-. Fairba'sn declares
that the wooden backing is disadvantageous, for it is Fable
to decay, and, owing to :t3 thickness, interferes with the
training of the guns. He proposes that we should have the
armour bolted on to iron plates, instead of wood. Next
comes Mr. Scott Russell, who says M-. Fairbairn is right,
as far as he goes, but that bolt-holes weaken the plates, and
who accordingly suggests a system of clamping between I he
plates, by which that defect may be obviated, Lastly, Mr.
Samuda insists that there is no necessity for the iron-back-
ing at all, and that it would be much better to have thicker
plates—say of five inches, and make them past of the sides
of the ship. Which of these gentlemen is in the right will
be shown by our experiments. I now come to the specific
votes. As to the item for seamen's clothing, I must own
that the state of the accounts is not altogether satisfactory,
and the Admiralty is anxious to devise a better system.
Hitherto, ship's accounts have been made up only once in
three years, and in consequence the annual votes for clothing
(which are repaid to the Treasury by deductions f:om the
pay of the men) have been very irregular in amount. We
are going, however, to introduce a system of annual
accounts, by which we can keep this vote more uniform.
I have looked into the accounts for the last two years, aod
I find that the deductions from pay have replaced the out-
lay for the purchase of clothing. A novelty !Ir this vote is
the appointment o: an Inspector-General to: the Mar:nes,
which has been deemed necessary. As to vote 2, it was re-
marked as singular, that while there is a reduction in the
number of men there is an increase in the estimate for
victuals. That is caused partly by the curing at Deptford
being more expensive than when performed by contract,
and partly by the rise in the price of lour and beef. I now
come to vote 3, to which I must ask the attention of the
committee. You are aware that a Royal Commission which
inquired into the ail irs of the Admiralty reported to the
effect that if the Naval Department was to work with due
efficiency and to command that confidence which great mili-
tary or naval departments require, it must have all its off
cers under one rocf. (Hear, hear.) That recommendation
had been made over and over again during a courseof many
years. The late Sir James Graham as far back as 1835
recommended to bring the several branches of the depart-
ment together. Well, I believe measures are at last about
to be taken with a view to the construction of a wing to the
Admiralty, which will correspond with the rest of the
building, and will face the Park, and then all the depart-
ments will be contained under one roof. If the votes for
that purpose are not in the estimates now before the com-
mittee, they will be brought in by the First Commissioner
of Works, but it is my business to inform the house that,
after careful consideration, her Majesty's Government have
resolved to propose this matter to Parliament. There are
two or three points connected with this vote which I shall
mention. There is one office which we have found it neces-
sary to create—namely, that of Assistant-Constructor. The
work in the Constructor's office has been vastly increased,
particularly by the building of iron-cased ships; the Admi •
ralty, therefore, with the consent of the Treasury, have ap-
pointed an Acting-Constructor. Two important appoint-
ments in connection with the shipbuilding department, and
recommended by the Royal Commission, have also been
made. I beg to call the attention of my hon. friend the
member for Glasgow (Mr. Dalglish) to this matter. There
has been appointed, first of all, a Deputy-Accountant-
General, who is to relieve the Accountant-General of a
portion of his vastly increased work. There is likewise to
be an auditor of yard accounts, who will be an independent
officer, and will serve as check upon the expenditure in each
dockyard. Now, I am informed by the Accountant-General
that the very best effects have already followed in the dock-
yards in consequence of the new system of accounts, but
every effort should bo made with a view to bringing the
system to still greater perfection. (Hear.) Lastly, we have
a proposal for a transport service, as recommended by the
Transport Committee of last year. As far as the Admiralty
are concerned, they have thought it desirable that there
should be a distinct transport service. The War-office, I
believe I may say, thinks se too; but the heads of the
Colonial-office are entirely averse to the scheme. They
hive given strong reasons against it, and have altogether
declined to entertain it. The Indian Department also ob-
ject to the change at present. They think that, upon the
whole, the present system of transport of troops to India is
at once most economical and satisfactory. The result,
however, is, that the War-office and the Admiralty
have taken up the scheme, and it is intended that
there shall be a transport officer and a secretary to
manage the transport business. (Hear, hear.) I have
already gone into the question of the Naval Reserve
and the additional cost in consequence of the increase of
numbers, and therefore I will say no more upon that sub.
ject. With regard to Votes 5,6, and 7, I do not know that
there is any need I should trouble the house with any re-
marks. With regard to Vote 8, it is intended to reduce the
establishments of the dockyards to the ordinary amount of
1850, and in the event of our requiring at any time an in-
crease in the number of men, instead of adding to the per-
\ manent establishment—which would give a title to super-
annuation—we shall take on hired men. (Hear.) This year
I think it my duty to take £30,000 for a certain number of
hired men, who have come lately from China. They will
be discharged in summer, when they will have opportunities
of obtaining work elsewhere. I pass over Vote 9, and I come
to the great vote of all, which is Vote 10. (Hear, hear.)
Hon. gentlemen complain that we do not give information
as to how the money is spent, or how it is intended to be
spent, I must say that each year lets more daylight into
this vote. (Hear, hear.) It will be seen that with regard
to this vote we make a great reduction in timber and stores
I (Hear.) Now, I do not see the right hon. gentleman the
I member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) in his place. [Mr.
Henley just then crossed the house to his usual seat.] Well
let me inform that right hon. gentleman that his good ad-
vice with regard to timber has been followed by the Admi-
ralty. (Hoar, hear.) We have now 74,000 loads of timber.
We expect to consume during the next year about 43,000 ,
loads ; last year we consumed nearly 80,000, but we are now
returning to more quiet times (hear, hear), and the result is
that our expenditure is much reduced. If the committee
agree to the sum which we ask, we shall find ourselves at
the end of this year with nearly 80,000 loads of timber,
which I think a very good and satisfactory stock. (Hear.)
The reduction in the vote would have been considerably
greater but fora very remarkable thing. The St. Petersburg
crop of hemp failed last year ; the result was that we got
scarcely any, and we had to take a very large vote for hemp
this year in consequence. Onewordwith regard tothe fram-
ing of this vote. It has hitherto been one vote, but the Ad-
miralty, with the view of giving to the Howe of Commons
greater facilities for checking the amount, have divided it
into two wholly distinct votes, thus taking away from them-
selves the power of traneferripg the mosey that had been

voted for one purpose to another. (Hear, hear.) Well, I
think that will be considered satisfactory. (Hear, hear.)
Now let me state what we propose to do with the money
which we ask. We propose to build 20 1-8 of wooden iron-
plated frigates ; in line-of-battle-ships we do not wish to
make any progress at all ; but to sloops and smaller vessels
we intend to devote our best energies. (Hear.) Where tho
navy requires the greatest amount of energy at the present
time is in sloops and a superior class of gunboats. Some
hon. gentleman has said that we have vast numbers—more
than all the world besides—of these smaller vessels. So far
from that being the case, I could show that we have not in
proportion a number sufficient to maintain that superiority
at sea which we must ever maintain in all classes of vessels.
(Hear; hear.) Now, we come to the next point—steam-en-
gines. I ask the committee to attend to this, because a
grave question as to the liabilities of Government arose last
year in dealing with this subject. Even the right hon. gen-
tleman the member for Droitwich (Sir J. Pakington), who
generally speaks with great kindness, attacked me as to my
being pledged to certain sums. I think it right and fair,
when you are asked to agree to a vote, to telly ou what is
the ultimate cost of that vote. The Admiralty, therefore,
desires to show the expenditure which a vote entails not
only in the present but during future years. If you turn to
page 63 I will explain the new system. It will be seen that
the vote for engines already ordered is £415,880. That is
what we propose to take in this year and next year, deduct-
ing £108,900 to be voted in future years. We require for
engines already sanctioned by the house £306,980. I am
going to ask the committee to agree to purchase a certain
number of new engines, and they will cost £276,000, of
which we propose to take during the present year £130,440,
As to thatbranch of the vote, it is entirely within the power
of the committee to gave the whole or a part of it. None of
those engines are ordered. That is what we ask you to allow
us with regard to steam-engines. When we come to the i
voto I can show the number of engines, the horse-power,
assd all the details connected with them. With regard to
ship-building by contract, some hon. gentleman moved for
a return of the cost of these ships: I stated 'why it was not
advisable to give the cost of each ship. The ships building
by contract ore the Hector and Valiant, two troopships, and
four is.sn-e aze d ships, three alreedy sanctioned, and one Capt.
Coles' Ehip. Therefore the house has already agreed to three
out of the iCous iron-cased ships, and it is for the committee to
decide whether we shell commence the fou.;h ship. The
effect of all ilia is that the vote is £066,141 for vessels
building by coni.eact, bah the new and those sanctioned by
Parliament. These is one item with which I must trouble
the committee. It is the last heading, which is altogether
a novelty—" f,r experimental purpozes, sundries, and pos-
sible contingencies, £!0,000." Tb's is a large sum, I admit.
(Kees, hesr, f‘om Mr. Will:ams.) Eat let it be clearly
understood that ii we are going to build these novel vessels
we most i' we Ina to have anything like a cm 'saltily of 611 C•
cess, expes;mentalite on a large sox's. (Hear.) It is the
wosst po'icy :n the world to stint your dicpesiments, and I
must tell you that in the course o 2 building these iron ships
we con;:nually see that some little change is necessary. I
ba.ve a great dislike to alterations of ships, and I have often
expressed ; but it is irsepatable from the very novelty of
there eltips that we should have here and there to make
altetajens. (Hear.) I w:3'_ state f ankly that I am not
prepared to say we shall spend,it all, but you must remem-
b:r that in contracts ws are tied down to a certain sum, and
the- e must be some margin in case any little alterations
should be required, I have only a word or two to say upon
another item—the expenditure on docks. The great want
of .ha day is large docks. (Hear, hear.) We hear on all
sides that we have not docks enough, and that we must have
larger docks. It is true that if we are to build these very
large ships we must enlarge our docks. The committee
last year agreed to the enlargement of Chatham Dockyard,
and I have no doubt it will become one of the wonders of
s world. In the present year we propose to lengthen two
more docks, besides the docks already lengthened, the coat
of which is detailed under the various dockyards, and the
votes for which I shall be happy to explain. We propose
to lengthen one of t'ie docks at Portsmouth within the
bas:n, to enable such ship as the Minotaur and Warrior
to enter. We likewise propose to lengthen the dock at
Keyham for the same purpose. In vote 11 we ask for
money to commence our naval barracks at Devonport. We
likewise ask for a vote to allow of building at each of our
great yards machinery for bending iron plates. One of
the most difficult processes is bending the plates. It is
vet), easy to get plates either rolled or hammered. An
hon. gentleman asked whether we were going to
use rolled plat-es. From experiments we have made
we find there is very little difference between rolled plates
and hammered plates, only the machinery must be very
powerful to roll plates above five inches. At present nothing
exists to roll plates above five inches in thickness. We
propose to erect at each of the five building yards hydraulic
machinery, by which the plates may be bent on the spot,
and put on the ships,there and then. (Hear.) It is right
I should allude to the civil pensions. The increase caused
by the Superannuation Act of 1859 is very considerable; in
fact, my belief is that if you take the average you will find
that the Superannuation Act very nearly doubles the pen- I
dons of artificers. It is a serious question, and I call the
attention of the committee to the probability that these civil
pensions will increase year by year. (Hear.) Then we come
to the last vote, namely—the vote for the transport depart-
ment; and here we have a considerable decrease. But I
wish again to repeat that the £42,450 which stands at the
head of the vote is the last instalment for freight of ships
on mont-oly pay, end that with that exception the supple-
mentary vote included all the expenses for North America.
I cannot leave this subject without one word in recalling to
the committee that which no doubt has struck many before
—viz., the marvellous power of this country which enabled
us to send off this mass of transports at a short notice and
at such a time of the year without in the least degree disar-
ranging the intercolonial and packet service. (Hear.) I
merely mention it as interesting to every one; and now I
thank the committee for having listened to me so patiently.
I can assure hon. gentlemen that we are fully impressed
with the magnitude of these estimates. I am quite sure that
there is no department which more earnestly desires reduc-
tion than the Admiralty. But remember that we have had
to construct a new navy—(hear)—that we are constructing
a new navy. (Hear.) Remember that we are organising a
vast corps of reserves, upon whom !a all future time the
honour and power of this country will greatly depend.
(Cheers.) It is the bounden duty of every department of the
Government to look first to the protection of the country.
We have lived in troublous times. If we can live at peace
with all the world the Government will be only too thankful
to decrease the estimates. At the same time, I will be no
party to any great and sudden reduction which will cripple
the navy and imperil the safety and honour of the country.
(Cheers.) The noble and gallant lord concluded by moving
the first vote, of £3,078,121 for the wages of 74,850 seamen
and marines.
Sir J. PAKINGTON believed that the committee would
be of opinion that the noble lord had shown himself com-
pletely entitled to the attention which he acknowledged to
have received. The noble lord had made a statement occu-
pying a considerable time, but full of great interest, aid he
had made it with that degree of clearness and frankness
which had characterised the noble lord's statements on pre-
vious similar occasions. (Hear, hear.) He was happy to
say that he agreed with a very considerable portion of what
had fallen from the noble lord ; but there were one or two
points, in respect to which he confessed that at present he
was unable to express his entire concurrence, and on
which he should be glad to elicit some further explana-
tion. The noble lord explained the amount of force in
commission, and its proposed distribution, but appeared to
reduce the Channel fleet within limits hardly consistent
ith what of late years the interests of the country were
deemed to require. He understood the noble lord
to say that the Channel fleet was to be reduced
to two line. of-battle ships, two iron-plated ships—the War-
rior and the Black Prince, it might be presumed—and two
frigates and corvettes. The amount, therefore, was limited
to some six or seven sail. (Lord C. Paget : " Ten sail.")
Ho was glad to hear that correction, but he was still sorry
to understand that there were to be only two line-of-battle
ships among the Channel fleet, because the efficient main-
tenance of the Channel fleet was not only connected with
the question of national defence, but involved important
considerations with respect to training, disciplining, and
practising the men, (Hear, hear.) In these days nothing
was more desirable than that attention should be paid to
steam tactics ; and he should therefore have been glad to
hear that the Channel fleet was to be maintained at a larger
amount. The next statement, to which he attached great
importance, was the amount of the man disposable over and
above the requirements of the ships in commission, in order
to afford reliefs to the ships that might be paid off. He
understood that there were in hand at present a sufficient
amount of men to man four frigates; and he congratulated
the noble lord on making an approach to that state of
things which seemed to be essential to the power and dig-
nity of the royal navy. With respect to the amount of the
reserves, the noble lord's statement was highly satisfactory,
but he was not sure that the noble lord did not attach a
little more importance to the Coast Volunteer force than it
deserved. But here, again, it was impossible with any
candour or truth to deny that a rapid advance was being
made, no doubt owing very much to the labours of that
commission of which his hon. friend opposite was a
most distinguished member ; and he was glad to
see that the Admiralty were carrying out the
recommendations of that commission. One of the
most important recommendations of the commis-
sion had reference to the school training-ships, and he
hoped he correctly understood the noble lord to indi-
cate, in referring to certain training-ships, that they were,
in fact, a portion of that system. Hu attached great im-
portance to the plan as tending to connect the Royal Navy
with the merchant service, and he was glad to find that the
noble lord was thoroughly aware of the importance of esta-
blishing a good feeling between those two services. (Hear.)
He had heard with sincere pleasure that so many men of the
mercantile marine bad been willing to comply with the terms
offered, and had expressed willingness to form part of the
reserve upon which the country might depend for increas-
ing the Royal Navy at a period of emergency. (Hear.) The
next point to which he should refer was one of those por-
tions of the noble lord's statement in which he
was least
able to express concurrence—namely, ,the deductions from
the complements of our ships. On this point he did not
fre-
gard the explanation of the noble lord to be quite sat s ace
tory. The noble lord alluded to the ships being over-
crowded ; but afterwards, speaking as a sailor, the noble

lord mentioned that he had been glad to get all the men he
could, forgetting at the moment all about the unhealthy
state of the lower decks from over-crowding. (llear, hear.)
He went most willingly with the noble lord's statement,
as far as regarded ventilation and the adoption of all
prudent means for increasing the health of the British
sailor, but when the noble lord said that ho was going to
diminish the number of men in the lower decks and to
reduce the complements of the ships, it was to be feared that
by that process the efficiency of the men-of-war would
be weakened. This was not a new question ; for what
induced that very distinguished sailor, Admiral Berkeley,
to resign his seat at the Admiralty some years ago ? Was
it not the proposition to have peace establishments in the
ships of the navy, and to reduce the number of the crew, in
time of peace, to such an extent that the ships could not bo
worked without casting undue labour on the men, thereby
placing the officers in a humiliating and painful position
when they came to work the ships in the presence of the
men-of-war of other countries ? He regretted to hear what
fell from the noble lord on this point, and believed the reso-
lution come to a mistake. The contentment and satisfaction
of the sailors was an important matter, and theylvould not
be found to be satisfied or willing to serve in the'Royal Navy
if they were overworked in consequence of the ships being
undermanned. This matter was worthy of attention, in
reference to the complement of men to be awarded to the
new class of ships coming into existence. The former prin-
ciple in reference to manning turned, he believed, on the
number of guns in each ship. This was necessarily at an
end, for the number of guns was no longer a test of the size
of a ship. The largest vessel in the service was the Warrior,
and had only 40 guns, so that any idea of regulating the crew
of a ship by the guns must be abandoned. In future the
amount of the crew would require to be regulated by the
rigging and size of the vessel, and by the work which the
men had to perform, and he was afraid the Admiralty had
fallen into a mistake in proposing to reduce the complements
in the manner explained. (Hear, hear.) With respect to
the question of improvement, he doubted vet.) much whether
it was wise to adopt as a general rule the course of shutting
sailors up in gaol, and ho feared it had been ton much the
tendency of successive Courts of Admiralty to interfere with
the discretion of commanders of ships, and to prevent them
from carrying out that discipline which was so essential to
the navy. Be that, however, as it might, the Government,
he felt assured, was quite right in setting aside as far as pos-
sible the practice of sending sailors to common county gaols,
inasmuch as, if they were to be placed in confinement at all,
it was better they should be sent to prisons attached to the
Admiralty. His noble friend, he might add, had spoken
in a tone of pride of the manner in which our ships had
been fitted out in a week, and no ono could have corn•
plained more loudly than himself of a state of things in
which two or three months had been occupied in the
raising of crews. That state of things was, however, he
hoped, at an end, and he doubted very much whether, un-
less in cases of great emergency, it was wise to fit out ships
in a week. He said so because he was afraid that a vessel
fitted out in that time might not always be sent to sea in a
condition to do her credit as a portion of the British navy.
His noble friend had also referred to another question of
great importancc,—he meant the reduction of the arma-
ment of ships, and had referred to the straining of vessels
as caused by the weight of the guns. Now ho believed that
many of the heaviest of our men-of-war had strained
very much at sea of late, but then he believed the fact was
attributable not so much to the weight of their guns as of
their engines ; indeed he feared the tendency to strain was
the unavoidable consequence of the adoption of steam. He
might further observe :hat he had heard with great satis-
faction that the Admiralty intended to give a Hal to Cap-
tain Coles' cupola ships, and the House of Commons would,
he trusted, feel that the depirttnert was only taking a pru-
dent course in thus dealing with the most promising inven-
tion. He was also glad to hear the statement of his noble
friend with regard to the Warrior, and he wished he had
informed the committee whether the defect which he had
mentioned in connexion with her could not be remedied.
[Lord C. Paget—lt has been remedied.] Then he was not
sure that his noble friend might not have done as' well in
omitting to allude to the matter altogether. (I laugh.) Be
that, however; as it might, he must say he had heard with
great satisfaction the statement that the Admiralty were
about to abandon Somerset-house, and that the whole de-
partment was to be centred in one locality, although he did
not know where. [Lord C. Paget—Spring-gardens-ter-
race.] He was glad to hear that the change:was proposed,
because great practical inconvenience, in his opinion, re •
suited from the division of the department. There was only
another point on which he need detain the committee by ob-
serving, and that was the extension of our dockyards, which
lookiu at the extension of our navy, was, he thought in-
dispensable. He trusted, therefore, the Admiralty would
persevere in their intention to extend Chatham dockyard.
He need not detain the committee by making any further
comment on the statement of his noble friend. He had, he
hoped, dealt with it, as he meant to do, in a courteous spirit,
and he was happy to be able to trace in the estimates laid on
the table a determination on the part of the Admiralty to
maintain the full efficiency and power of the Navy. (Hear.)

Mr. W. WILLIAMS should like to know what was the
ultimate object of the enormous expenditure proposed with
the view of increasing and strengthening our fleet ? In
1852 the number of men voted for the navy was 39,000,
and in the hottest year of the Russian war the number was
76,000, including 10,000 boys. The Government wanted
74,850 for the present year, and that number was exclusive
of 10,000 for the Reserve. He was anxious to maintain tho
efficiency of the navy, but ho objected to uncalled-for ex-
travagance, and thought the time had arrived when Par-
liament ought to interfere. Tho saving of £lBl,OOO on the
expenditure of last year was wholly accounted for by the
smaller quantity of timber and machinery required for the
present year, and in the majority of votes there was a de-
cided increase of expenditure. He asked the Secretary to
the Admiralty to explain under what authority th?, Govern.
ment employed about 1,880 men more than were voted last
session.

Mr. H. BENTINCK had listened with great satisfac-
tion to the clear and able statement of the Secretary to the
Admiralty, and he had no fault to find with it. He had
been much struck with the remarks of the hon. member for
Sunderland. The hon. gentleman, like all sensible and
patriotic Englishmen, was anxious to maintain the supe-
riority of our navy, but at the same time he had virtually
asserted that there was no necessity for the existence of that
navy at all. (Mr. Lindsay—No.) The hon. member had
told them that the reports of the great exertions made by
the French to construct and send to sea a fleet of iron-
plated ships were all delusive, and that no apprehensions
need be entertained on that score. He had stated moreover
that our own preparations were quite uncalled for, because
he was convinced that the Emperor of the French had no
intention to go to war with this country. (" Hear, hear,"
from Mr. Lindsay.) It was much to be doubted whether
the hon. gentleman really knew what was passing in the
mind of the Emperor of the French ; but however that might
be, it would be folly to take the temper or inclination of any
potentate on the face of the earth as a guide for the naval
preparations of England. (Hear.) It was admitted that our
navy ought to be superior to the fleets of all other countries
put together. By acting upon that axiom we should pursue
a safer and more economical course than if we were to cut
down our Estimates year after year, according to what
might be the state of preparations in other countries and
the temporary aspect of European affairs. (Hear.) The
Secretary to the Admiralty had spoken of the necessity
for better ventilation on board men-of-war. Did the noble
lord mean to say that that was a sufficient reason for a re-
duction in the number of men ?

Lord C. PAGET said it was one of the reasons, but he
never meant to state that it was the principal reason. The
principal reason was the straining of the ships, which ren-
dered it necessary to lighten the weights.
Mr. BENTINCK could not help thinking, with all defer-
ence to his noble friend, that the disproportionate length of
ships had a great deal more to do with their straining than
any other cause. But his noble friend said the Admiralty
must decide the question of the number of men ships should
carry. He should like then to know if that question was to
be referred to the nautical portion of the Board. If so, well
and good. But they had lately heard that the civilian First
Lord at the head of the Admiralty considered himself, in
all cases where his views differed from those of the naval
members of the Board, lord paramount. That was a very
unsatisfactory state of things. With respect to the smaller
class of iron vessels, his inipression was that they were
going to vely considerable expense to alter and sheath with
iron a class of vessels that would not be so useful as bis
noble friend seemed to imagine. If they would expend a
larger sum in the construction of vessels of the Warrior
class, it would be a better outlay of money than devoting
a comparatively smaller sum to the purpose of trans-
forming old vessels into small iron-plated ships. There
was ono item mentioned by his noble friend which gave
him very great pleasure. One great difficulty at the Ad-
miralty had been that there was no fund from which to
draw in making experiments and testing suggestions. He
thought it most important that the Admiralty should have
such a sum at their disposal. It was often stated that they
were perfectly willing to afford facilities for testing valua-
ble suggestions, but they had not at their command fends
for the purpose, and they could not undertake to say that
the house would sanction such expenditure. He was,
therefore, glad to learn that his noble fraud contemplatedub
a change in this respect. His noble friend wound
saying that ho considered he was making his arrangementsfby
in quiet times. He was not prepared to say these were not
quiet times, but he would be a bold man who would under-
take to say how long quiet times would last. He was glad,
however, to find that there was to be no mateiial reduction
in the efficiency of the navy, for nothing, he was persuaded,
could be more injurious tst interests of the country
than the assumption that now, oo the ber
for many years to come,
such a reduction could be made.
Mr. LINDSAY admitted that our first duty was to see
that the country was properly defended, but the second
duty of the House of Commons was to see that no money
was spent unnecessarily, especially when there was a large
body in the countrysuffering severely. There were a great
many points in which he agreed with his noble friend. On
these he would not touch; he would restrict himself to
those on which he differed from his noble friend. The
right hon. baronet the member for Droitwich agreed Ewith
his noble friend in almost all he said; especially he agreed
with him in spending a great amount of money. He even
went further, for the right hon. gentleman appeared to
think that the Channel fleet was not large enough. Thu I

right hon. gentleman when in office shaped his policy by
that of other Governments. The aggregate tonnage of the
iron-cased ships to be built this year. was 70,000 tons.
Before voting the enormous sums now asked of it, the
house ought to know what was the state of our foreign rela-
tions. Against danger from what foreign Power was it
that these increased armaments were prepared ? It was
said that there was to be a reduction of 2,200 in the number
of men, and some hon. members had objected to it; yet, in
fact, there would be no such reduction, but rather an actual
increase. Last yoar the strength of the Naval Reserve was
25,000; now it was 40,00. Allowing that one• fourth of
the entire number would not be ready for service when
called upon, there would still remain at the lowest compu-
tation 5000 more men of the reserve available for any emer-
gency this year than last year. Instead, therefore, of a de-
crease of 2,200 seamen, there was an increase of nearly
3,000 ; for it must be remembered that the reserve cost a
considerable sum to the country. He would divide the
Committee on this vote if he saw any chance of doing so
with effect ; but perhaps the feeble words which fell from
him might yield some fruit in another year. Although
we were at peace with all the world, there was evidently
a strong desire on the Treasury bench to chant the
old strain of " Rule Britannia"— a song which, when-
ever sung by any Ministry, was sure to obtain for
them any amount of money from the country. Ho was
glad that such harmony prevailed between the Royal navy
and the merchant service, since the officers of the latter had
beenintroduced into the reserve. He had striven earnestly
in the commission in favour of the admission of those offi-
cers, but the measure had been strenuously resisted by naval
men, who had a prejudice against the officers of the mer-
chant service, on the ground, as ono witness alleged, that
they were not gentlemen. The noble lord said that the
boys now undergoing training made the best class of sea-
men ; but there was a limit to that argument. If lads who
had been first employed in colliers upon our iron-bound
coast afterwards received a short training for the navy they
would make seamen whom he would fearlessly back against
the whole world. It appeared that a ship of an entirely
novel construction was to be built, but before she was laid
down the opinion of the most eminent practical shipbuilders
should be taken as to her sea-going qualities. He was him-
self on his return from Lisbon, crossing the Bay of Biscay,
when the Warrior was going out, and although he had been
in many heavy gales of wind, yet be had never witnessed
such a tremendous sea as was running when he passed the
Warrior. He would just say that a ship of her weight that
could live in such a sea and get to Lisbon without any
damage, was fit to go to any part of the world. The result
obtained in her case was therefore very satisfactory. (Hear.)
The committee which sat upon the transport service !had
recommended some important improvements. While that
report had been adopted by the Admiralty and the War
Departments it had been ignored by the Colonial and the
India Departments. Ile intended to call the attention of the
house to the subject to-morrow evening, when he hoped to
be able to induce them to support the recommendation of
their own committee.

Mr. CORRY, in reference to reducing the armaments of
her Majesty's ships, in consequence of their being over-
weighted in bad weather, said that while he was at the
Admiralty there was no complaints on the subject. If
Armstrong guns were substituted for the smooth bores,
an immense reduction would be effected in the weight of the
armament without diminishing the number of the guns ;
for the 32 pounder, weighing (8 cwt., in most general use
in the Navy, would give place to the Armstrong 40 pounder,
weighing 31 cwt. only, a diminution of 27 cwt. But smooth
bore guns, at short distances, were more effective than the
rifled guns. (Hear.) The reduction proposed was on an
extravagant scale—as, for instance, the Shannon was to be
reduced from 51 to 35 guns—a reduction of nearly one-third.
lie thought this was too great a reduction to be made at
first. if the Shannon were to engage a French ship of 50
or 60 guns, would she be the more effective with 51 old guns
or the 35 new ones ? He confessed he thought she would
be most effective with the 51. It was said these heavy ar-
maments increased the wear and tear of the ships ; but ho
held that ships of war should be what they pretended to be,
and not ships of peace. The weight of the armament of the
Royal Oak, as a 91 gun ship, would have been 260 tons,
which was more than she ought to carry.
Lord C. PAGET.-533 tons,

Mr. CORRY said that included gunners' stores. The
guns weighed 260 tons. With 50 guns the weight would
be 106 tons.

Lord C. PAGET wished to correct an impression which
he thought he had conveyed to the right hon. gentleman
(Sir J. Pakington), that during the coming year there would
be in the Channel only two line-of-battle ships and two
iron-cased frigates. What he had stated was the force they
now had, but he gave the force of men they proposed for
next year, and this would suffice to maintain three line-of-
battle ships, three iron-cased frigates, two wooden frigates,
and four corvettes, making a total of 12 instead of ten.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Norfolk had stated
correctly that our ships had very fine ends, and the guns
could not well be put there. It was certain that these
ships would not bear any great weight of guns in their ex
tremities. The new plan was of a tentative nature only.
He had attempted to show that the introduction of a certain
number of Armstrong guns would make up the weight of
broadsides caused by the reduction of guns. Thus the loss
of weight upon the broadside of the Shannon in conse-
quence of the new arrangement was no more than 100 lb .
Captain Dickson, of the Trafalgar, had reported that he
had no difficulty in manning his guns and in working his
yards, and he believed that the objections to the plan would
soon vanish.
Mr. CARDWELL observed that the hon. member for
Sunderland appeared to labour under the supposition that
the commission were opposed to the scheme of the reserve.
As a member of the commission, he (Mr. Cardwell) could
state, on the contrary, that they were most anxious to see
the arrangement carried into effect; but the reason why it
was not reported upon was, that it was not within their
order of reference, and, therefore, was not inquired into.
The commission had great difficulties to contend with on
that head, inasmuch as the impression everywhere prevailed
that a naval reserve could not be carried out, it being con-
sidered that the recollection of former times, especially of
compulsory service, would render the attempt hopeless.
The barrier between the two services had now happily been
broken down, and the union of the two assured the future
security of the country. With respect to school-ships and
a merchant seamen's fund, much, no doubt, still remained
to be accomplished ; but still, they might all be grateful
that so much had already been done, a result which was
very much owing to the useful exertions of Captain Brown,
the registrar of seamen.
Admiral WALCOTT expressed his regret at the reduc-
tion of the men, which he said would cause great dissatis-
faction. He deprecated any reduction of their armaments
which would impair the efficiency of the ships, but he
highly approved of the new training ships. Ho thought
they ought also to have troop ships, which were essential
in many important respects.

. . .
Mr. LINDSAY thought that if any person was entitled
to credit for the formation of the naval reserve he ought to
be allowed at least some share, inasmuch as he had advo-
cated that measure when it was opposed by the Govern-
ment and nearly every one else.
After a few words from Mr. CARDWELL,

Admiral DUNCOMBE expressed approval of the pro-
posed reduction of weight and armament in our ships of
war. He regarded it as a measure of economy, and he
suggested that the weight of the yards and rigging should
also be diminished.

Sir M. PETO considered that the combination of wood
and iron must necessarily lead to the construction of a
weak vessel. He was in possession of information to show
that wherever they were used in combination there would
be great straining, whereas in a vessel built wholly of iron,
with its proportions carefully studied, there would be little
or none. He bad stated his regret that we had not fol.
lowed the example of the Emperor, but now we had begun
to do so ho would say do not go on too fast in an untried
path. He was ready, therefore, to accord the greatest possi-
ble indulgence in pursuing their experiments. Complaints
had been made of their building too many wooden ships be •
fore they wero certain as to the best mode of construction.
He would say that we were now in much the same position
with our iron ships. We had enough to experiment upon,
and his own conviction was, that ultimately our channel
fleet would have no masts at all. Ho had also suggested
that it was desirable that the Admiralty should reconsider
their establishments. He knew all the difficulties in the
way. It would be hard if, in consequences of changes in
the mode of construction, men who had served theircheountdirs..
country
well and long, but now no longer useful, should
to give them
charged ; but the cheapest way would be
hsusurecht hlaatrgane
eisrtoan.
fleet would not require
a liberal retiring pension. He
tolimeaiwnetasi
d I sum'
would constructed iron ship, if not un u y wor ed,
blishments in future as we
.had hitherto. A pro-
per y-
ld last for 50 years, and we should not require a sum
wlikoue three millions to be spent in repairs for our ships. He
objected, also, to the large sum which we were spending
upon fortifications and works at Portsmouth. We were
spending millions in the endeavour to make a place im-
pregnable which was no longer serviceable. It was not a
place to which we ought to take our ships to be repaired.
The time had come when we ought to spend a large sum
for the purpose of providing a sufficient and proper place
for the repair of vessels, and that ought to be some few
miles inland, and perhaps Southampton Water would be
the best, certainly much better than Portsmouth. With
respect to the transport service, he quite concurred with
all the noble lord had said as to the way in which the corn
panics came forward in the case of Canada. It was most
creditable to them and to the Government, and he Was sure
the more the Government looked to the commercial marine
to assist them in time of war, the more they cemented the
Government and the commercial public.

Lord PALMERSTON observed that his hon. friend the
member for Sunderland and his hon. friend the member for
Montrose charged him with having made a great mistake
last year as to the number of iron ships being built by the
French Government. Now, if there was a delusion any-
where it was an their parts. He stated that the French
Government were building 26 iron ships, that some of them
were completed and others in progress, and, unless ho was
very much mistaken, they determined a short Limo ago to
add ten more to that number.
Mr. BENTINCR thought it would be of great advan-
tage to the public service to have a small number of troop-
ships alwayi ready for any service that might bo required.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE had heard the very able state-

went of the noble lord the Secretary of the Admiralty with
great pleasure, but he could not agree with him in the plan
he proposed to lessen the number of guns on board men-of-
war. He thought, however, the Admiralty deserved great
credit for taking the supply of provisions for the navy into
their own hands, because they would be of a better quality.
A vote of £370,000 for the wages of seamen was agreed
to, after which the Chairman reported progress.

The house resumed.
BLEACHFIELDS (WOMEN AND CHILDREN
EMPLOYMENT).

Mr. BAXTER obtained leave to bring in a bill to pre-
vent women and children being employed at machinery
during the night at bleachfields.

The bill was read a first time.
PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

Mr. 'WALPOLE moved for a copy of the Commission
appointed to inquire into certain public schools in England.
Ordered.
The house adjourned at ten minutes past 12.