The Sun.
London, England, 1862-03-18 00:00:00

The Marquis of NOR MANBY rose to move an address
for copies or extracts of any despatches from Sir James
Hudson, her Majesty's Minister at Turin, relating to Go-
vernment prosecutions of the press during the last two
years ; also copies or extracts of any despatches from
Sir Jvnes Hudson, or from Mr. Bonham, her
Majesty's Consul at Naples, reporting the issue of cer-
tain proclamations or orders from Generals Cialdini and
Vorelli, from Commandants Galateri, Narbone, De
Vergili, Faieno, and others, whereby the population of
vsrious portions of the Neapolitan territory were last year
subjected to arbitrary military execution without any form
of process and without any previous declaration of a state
of siege ; and also copies er extracts of any despatches from
Sir J. Hudson, calling the attention of her Majesty's Go-
vernment to statements of fact as to the condition of Southern
Italy made by Neapolitan deputies in the Parliament of
Turin, and reported in the official records of that assembly.
the noble lord said he must refer to the statement made by
the noble earl when he (the Marquis of Normanby) a few
evenings ago was compelled to postpone his motion. The
noble earl on that occasion did not feel inclined to accept
entirely that which he had stated with respect to the pro-
clamation, and had implied that the document had been
fabricated in the Italian newspaper in which it first appeared.
That statement of the noble lord had not been withdrawn,
although it had been in some measure destroyed, and he
considered that had the document appeared in an English
newspaper, the noble earl he felt satisfied would not have
made such a charge. The Italian newspaper in question
was a most respectable one, and not at all likely to act as
the noble earl had supposed. The noble earl had on other
occasions stated that the King of Piedmont had never in-
stituted prosecutions against Conservative journals, but
had allowed them every liberty to state their opinion with-
out the slightest importance, but from information that
had come into his possession he found that the King
or his Government had instituted no less than
six press prosecutions, the punishment inflicted in
each case being fine or imprisonment. He must also object
to another statement of the noble earl, in which he said
there was no civil war in Naples, but that it was confined
entirely to the Papal frontier. Now the papers that were
continually arriving in this country from Italy plainly
showed that that was not the case. News had even arrived
that very morning of the taking forcible possession of a
town, while the national guard of which remained passive.
The result of the policy pursued in Parma, Modena, Tus-
cany, Bologna, and the Neapolitan provinces had been
famine and military murder, the taxes had been increased,
desertion was frequent, and discontent universal. Italy
would, he believed, be yet independent and prosperous, but
that would not take place until the impostures of the last
three years had been exposed.

Earl RUSSELL said he was sorry to trouble their lord.
ships again on this sutject of the proclamation issued by
Fantoni, but the statements made by his noble friend re-
quired some further explanation. The noble marquis had
taken a course not very convenient, of referring to reports
made of a speech delivered by him (the noble earl) in that
house, and of criticising those statements. With regard to
that debate, it arose, as his noble friend stated, out of a
question from the noble earl opposite (Derby), acting as
deputy for the noble marquis, whose inquiry was not con-
fined to the genuine character of the proclamation, but who
spoke in terms of indignation of the Government for sanc-
tioning the proclamation. His noble friend had said that
his (Earl Russell's) motives in his reply were twofold.
The Marquis of NORM A.NBY—That was the impression
they were intended to create.

Earl RUSSELL—Then the house knew the impressions
he intended to create better than he did himself. His object
was certainly not twofold. He simply endeavoured to ac-
count for the proclamation, of which he had not received
information, by the supposition that it could not be genuine.
His noble friend said that he had charged the proprietors
or editors of newspapers with forgery, He did not know at
this time what words he exactly used,-but he did not mean
to charge those gentlemen with forgery ; but he supposed
it was very possible that that proclamation had been taken
by them as not a genuine one, and published as if it were.
He still adhered to that view. The Italian gentleman, the
friend of the Lord Privy Seal, to whom the noble marquis
alluded, referred, not to this proclamation, because he
left Turin before it was issued, but to some incidents of a
similar character which had happened some weeks previ-
ously. Now it appeared that the Government of Turin
knew nothing whatever of the proclamation, nor did the
Commander-in-Chief at Naples ; and yet that Government
was to be blamed and held up to Europe as unworthy of
respect on account of sanctioning that proclamation. He
had since received a despatch from her Majesty's consul
at Naples, and he would read it. It was written by Mr.
Bonham and not by the Minister, and therefore it might be
the more readily received with confidence by noble lords
opposite. Mr. Bonham said,—" Naples, March 6. My Lord
—I have the honour to report to your lordship that having
seen in the Times of the 26th February a report of a conver-
sation in the House of Lords relative to a proclamation
issued in these provinces, of which I had not previously
heard, I called on Gen. La Marmora to ask some informa-
tion about it. His Excellency told me that the first he heard
of it was an inquiry by telegraph from Turin respecting a
proclamation said to have been issued by a Gen. Fantoni,
there being no general of that name in the service. He at
once proceeded, however, to investigate the matter, and
found that a Major Fantoni, commanding a battalion, had
in effect drawn up such a proclamation, and had it printed
in Lucera. Having then submitted it to the general com-
manding the district, that offieer at once disapproved and
disavowed it. It was set aside, and not acted on in any way.
Some person, however, having obtained a copy, sent it, it
would appear, to the Journal Armenia at Turin, in which
it was published. His Excellency added that he had com-
municated all this by telegraph to Turin some days ago,
and doubtless your lordship has been already informed of
the circumstance by her Majesty's envoy at Turin. I, how-
ever, write to state to your lordship that this proclamation
was not published in the official or any other journal in
these provinces until just now, that its publication in the
Armenia having attracted attention in England, it has been
copied into the journal called the Tapolo d' Italia." Now,
that was the proclamation which the noble marquis stated
was circulated in all the public journals in Italy, and was
taken as a genuine act of the Government sitting at Turin.
That was the proclamation on which a grave charge was
founded against the Government of Italy. He (the noble
earl) entirely acquitted the Armenia of having invented that
document, and of having been imposed upon by some one
who did ; but he asked their lordships whether, considering
the circumstances,there did not appear just suspicion that the
editors of the Armenia must have known something of the
proclamation. Was it not probable that they were per-
fectly aware, from the persons who sent it them, that the
act of a major commanding a battalion was not approved of
by the general of the district, and had not received any ,
official sanction? So much for the history of this proclam a- 1
tion; and he thought the noble earl his predecessor in office
must know that neither her Majesty's minister at Turin
nor our consul at Naples was to blame for not transmitting
this proclamation, or abstaining from asking for any instruc-
tion the subject. His noble friend had gone on to ask
several questions about other statements of his (Earl
Russell's) with respect the press. Now what he stated on
that subject passed between Count Cavour and himself in a
conversation when they met at Nice. He supposed that as
prosecutions of the press had not taken place there might be
greater laxity. His noble friend's question related to matters
which took place two years subsequently, in 1859. He knew
well that after the battle of Solferino, when there was a
question of signing the treaty of Villafranca, Count Cavour
retired from office, and was not responsible for what took
place. He did not think that the English Government was
responsible (hear, hear), but it was with the Italian Go-
vernment themselves, and with regard to that subject her
Majesty's representative at Turin said most justly that as
all the prosecutions of the press were conducted according
to the judicial form, that as the judges at Turin were ap-
pointed for life or during good behaviour, and that as there
was an appeal to a higher court in case of a conviction, he
did not consider it his duty to report to her Majesty's
Government all the prosecutions of the press or the judg-
ments or sentences recorded. In that opinion he (the
noble earl) thought our minister was perfectly correct.
But with regard to other subjects he was afraid that he
and his noble friend were at variance. His noble friend
spoke of the prosecutions of the press and of the harsh
measures that had been resorted to, and speaking of Naples
measures had been taken
camselel)eumtuesvt emerrydaaryk.
he said not only legal but illegal
uTphoant mthiagthothbaeertvhaeticasou et,hbaut
ftrheesh pap e rl (Earltsus
This and the publication of the Arenonia and two or three
more papers at Turin showed that a great change had taken
place. He remembered perfectly well, and so must his noble
friend, when it was impossible that any paper could be pro-
secuted, because no man was allowed in those days to say
anything at all in blameofretmheemMbienriesd when
ofetnhethdaatyvoerryofmthoe.
mo-
derate paper
Government of the day, even in the most simple and harm-
less earHe
Journal des Debats was not allowed in the
era manner.
the(H
dominion of the King of Sardinia for fear it might induce
great liberty of thought. That was the main and broad dif-
ference between Italy of past days and the Italy of the pre-
sent. Formerly not a word that any lover of freedom spoke
could be published, and no man could venture to print any
opinion in any newspaper that tended to the improvement
of the laws or to the establishment of a liberal constitution.
The fact now was that while there was a great deal of vio-
lence no doubt GII the side of these who were in favour of
what had taken place in Italy, there was at the same time
great liberty, or he should rather say great license, on the
part of those who entertained opinions upon the other side,
and who were obviously working for the restoration of the