The Sun.
London, England, 1862-02-25 00:00:00

rim SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 25, 1862.

line-of-battle ships, and they are to be lengthened 12 or 15
feet. The Prince Consort and the Caledonia will have en- 1
gines of 1,000 Noise-power, and an estimated speedof 12.41,
The Royal Alfred and the Royal Oak are of the same ton-
nage, with 800 horse-power and a speed of 11'52. I am
now obliged to ask the attention of the committee to a
totally novel class of vessel which we ask the committee to
consent to construct during this year. Every one will re-
member the controversy with regard to the construction
of Capt. Coles's cupolas. Last year we carried on a series
of extensive experiments with one of these cupolas. We
put it on an old floating battery ; we tried thing from it,
and then we tried firing at it—and the result was that it
s ood the most complete hammering without showing any
considerable signs of weakness. The Admiralty were so
impressed with this that they have since gone carefully into
the matter, and wo are now preparing an improved cupola

—a double cupola—to carry two guns, And we are now pro-
posing to construct a ship which shall carry six of these
cupolas. She is to be of 2,529 tons, of 500 horse-power, and

_
will carry 12 breech-loading Armstrong 100 •pounder guns
in these six cupolas. Her length is 240 feet, and her draught

of water 20 feet. It is very important to consider whether
we cannot construct efficient armour-plated ships of consi-

derably less draught, and we propose to try the experiment
with Capt. Coles' vessel. She will have rather a singular
...

appearance, as she will have no masts whatever, and will
trust entirely to steam. Rigging is out of the question, as
it would deprive her of room for training her guns. She
is intended for coat defence, and if she proves service-

able she will have this very great advantage over other
vessels—that her cost will be much less. (Hear, hear.)

I hope, therefore, the committee will consent to
our carrying out the plan. (Sir J. Pakington—What
will she cost ?) I should be glad to state the precise cost,
but it would be very disadvantageous to the public interests
that contractors should discover the cost of each separate
vessel. It is in order to prevent that we put the various
vessels in one vote. (Hear.) I wish to say a word as to
the Warrior. It is quite natural that a vessel of novel con
strnction which everybody is watching should be made the
subject of evil reports and exaggerated statements. I will
therefore state what I know concerning her. We have re-
ceived a series of reports from Capt. Cochrane (who is one
of the most skilful and valuable officers in the service), but
they are not of an official character. I wish they were.
Everybody knows what weather the Warrior had to go
through. Capt. Cochrane describes it as terrific. It was
so very bad that even that noble vessel had to lay-to. Such
was the awful sea, that had she exceeded the rate of four
knots :an hour her bowsprit would have gone under. In
spite of the gale, however, she arrived safely at Lisbon with
the exception of some trivial accidents. A vessel that could
go through such a trial is fit to go round the world. It has
been said, however, that she will not steer properly. It is
quite true that such was the case. In her construction a
detail of immense importaece to the ship was neglected.
The yoke was fitted in such a manner that she had not suf-
ficient play for her helm. In ships we usually give 36 de-
grees each way for the helm to move is ; that is a quadrant
of 72 altogether, but in this case only 26 degrees each way
were allowed. It was only natural, therefore, that the
Warrior could not answer to her helm ; but that is the only
serious defect in the vessel. I had the pleasure of being on
board of her on her first cruise, and I must say she was the
most wonderful vessel in which I ever put to sea. No doubt
in the trough of the sea she has a tendency to roll ; but she
is fit to go anywhere in the world. (Hear.) I have made
these remarks because there are several sinister reports
abroad on the subject which I believe are totally without
foundation. (Hear.) A series of experiments is to take
place next week, which will, in a great measure, determine
the future of our iron fleet. Our present vessels, as you are
aware, can y 4. inch armour plates, backed by 18 inches of
teak. But we are going to make some experiments on
Captain Coles' vessel to test the value of three proposals
which have been submitted to us. Mr. Fairbairn declares
that the wooden backing is disadvantageous, for it is liable
to decay, and, owing to its thickness, interferes with the
training of the guns. He proposes that we should have the
armour bolted on to iron plates, instead of wood. Next
comes Mr. Scott Russell, who says Mr. Fairbairn is right,
as far as he goes, but that bolt-holes weaken the plates, and
who accordingly suggests a system of clamping between the
plates, by which that defect may be obviated. Lastly, Mr.
Samuda insists that there is'no necessity for the iron-back-
ing at all, and that it would be much better to have thicker
plates—say of five inches, and make them part of the sides
of the ship. Which of these gentlemen is in the right will
be shown by our experiments. I now come to the specific
votes. As to the item for seamen's clothing, I must own
that the state of the accounts is not altogether satisfactory,
and the Admiralty is anxious to devise a better system.
Hitherto, ship's accounts have been made up only once in
three years, and in consequence the annual votes for clothing
(which are repaid to the Treasury by deductions from the
pay of the men) have been very irregular in amount. We
are going, however, to introduce a system of annual
accounts, by which we can keep this vote more uniform.
I have looked into the accounts for the last two years, and
I find that the deductions from pay have replaced the out-
lay for the purchase of clothing. A novelty in this vote is
the appointment of an Inspector-General for the Marines,
which has been deemed necessary. As to vote 2, it was re-
marked as singular, that while there is a reduction in the
number of men there is an increase in the estimate for
victuals. That is caused partly by the curing at Deptford
being more expensive than when performed by contract,
and partly by the rise in the price of flour and beef. I now
come to vote 3, to which I must ask the attention of the
committee. You are aware that a Royal Commission which
inquired into the affairs of the Admiralty reported to the
effect that if the Naval Department was to work with due
efficiency and to command that confidence which great mili-
tary or naval departments require, it must have all its offi-
cers under one roof. (Hear, hear.) That recommendation
had been made over and over again during a course of many
years. The late Sir James Graham as far back as 1835
recommended to bring the several branches of the depart-
ment together. Well, I believe measures are at last about
to be taken with a view to the construction of a wing to the
Admiralty, which will correspond with the rest of the
building, and will face the Park, and then all the depart-
ments will be contained under one roof. If the votes for
that purpose are not in the estimates now before the com-
mittee, they will be brought in by the First Commissioner
of Works, but it is my business to inform the house that,
after careful consideration, her Majesty's Government have
resolved to propose this matter to Parliament. There are
two or three points connected with this vote which I shall
mention. There is one office which we have found it neces-
sary to create—namely, that of Assistant-Consti uctor. The
work in the Constructor's office has been vastly increased,
particularly by the building of iron-cased ships; the Admi
ratty, therefore, with the consent of the Treasury, have ap-
pointed an Acting-Constructor. Two important appoint-
ments in connection with the shipbuilding department, and
recommended by the Royal Commission, have also been
made. I beg to call the attention of my hon. friend the
member for Glasgow (Mr. Dalglish) to this matter. There
has been appointed, first of all, a Peputy-Accountant-
General, who is to relieve the Accountant-General of a
portion of his vastly increased work. There is likewise to
be an auditor of yard accounts, who will be an independent
officer, and will serve as check upon the expenditure in each
dockyard. Now, I am informed by the Accountant-General
that the very best effects have already followed in the dock-
yards in consequence of the new system of accounts, but
every effort should be made with a view to bringing the
system to still greater perfection. (Hear.) Lastly, we have
a proposal for a transport service, as recommended by the
Transport Committee of last year. As far as the Admiralty
are concerned, they have thought it desirable that there
should be a distinct transport service. The War-office, I
believe I may say, thinks se too; but the heads of the
Colonial-office are entirely averse to the scheme. They
have given strong reasons against it, and have altogether
declined to entertain it. The Indian Department also ob-
ject to the change at present. They think that, upon the
whole, the present system of transport of troops to India is
at once most economical and satisfactory. The result,
however, is, that the War-office and the Admiralty
have taken up the scheme, and it is intended that
there shall be a transport officer and a secretary to
manage the transport business. (Hear, hear.) I have
already gone into the question of the Naval Reserve
and the additional cost in consequence of the increase of
numbers, and therefore I will say no more upon that sub-
ject. 'With regard to Votes 5,6, and 7, Ido not know that
there is any need I should trouble the house with any re-
marks. With regard to Vote 8, it is intended to reduce the
establishments of the dockyards to the ordinary amount of
1850, and in the event of our requiring at any time an in-
crease in the number of men, instead of adding to the per-
manent establishment—which would give a title to super-
annuation—we shall take on hired men. (Hear.) This year
I think it my duty to take L 30,000 for a certain number of
hired men, who have come lately from China. They will
be discharged in summer, when they will have opportunities
of obtaining work elsewhere. I pass over Vote 9, and I come
to the great vote of all, which is Vote 10. (Hear, hear.)
Hon. gentlemen complain that we do not give information
as to how the money is spent, or how it is intended to be
spent, I must say that each year lets more daylight into
this vote, (Hear, hear.) It will be seen that with regard
to this vote we make a great reduction in timber and stores
(Hear.) Now, Ido not see the right hon. gentleman the
member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) in his place. [Mr.
Henley just then crossed the house to his usual seat.] Well
let me inform that right hon. gentleman that his good ad-
vice with regard to timber has been followed by the Admi-
ralty. (Hear, hear.) Wo have now 74,000 loads of timber.
We expect to consume during the next year about 43,000
loads ; last year we consumed nearly 80,000, but we are now
returning to more quiet times (hear, hear), and the result is
that our expenditure is much reduced. If the committee
agree to the sum which we ask, we shall find ourselves at
the end of this year with nearly 80,000 loads of timber,
which I think a very good and satisfactory stock. (Hear.)
The reduction in the vote would have been considerably
greater but for a very remarkable thing. The St. Petersburg
crop of hemp failed last year ; the result was that we got
scarcely any, and we had to take a very large vote for hemp
this year In consequence. One word with regard to the fram-
ing of this vote. It has hitherto been one vote, but the Ad-
miralty, with the view of gi'.ing to the House of Commons
greater facilities for checking the amount, have divided it
into two wholly distinct votes, thus taking away from them-
selves the power of transferring the money that had been

voted for one purpose to another. (Hear, hear.) Well, I
think that will be considered satisfactory. (Hear, hear.)

Now let me state what we propose to do with the money
which we ask. We propose to build 20 1-8 of wooden iron-
plated frigates ; in line-of-battle-ships we do not wish to
make any progress at all; but to sloops and smaller vessels
we intend to devote our best energies. (Hear.) Where the

navy requires the greatest amount of energy at the present
time is in sloops and a superior class of gunboats. Some
_ _

hon. gentleman has said that we have vast numbers—more

than all the world besides—of these smaller vessels. So far

from that being the case, I could show that we have not in
proportion a number sufficient to maintain that superiority

at sea which we must ever maintain in all classes of vessels.

:Hear, hear.) Now, we come to the next point—steam-en-

gins. I ask the committee to attend to this, because a
_ _

grave question as to the liabilities of Government arose last
year in dealing with this subject. Even the right hon. gen-
tleman the member for Droitwich (Sir T. Pakingten), who
generally speaks with great kindness, attacked me as to my

being pledged to certain sums. I think it right and fair,
when you are asked to agree to a vote, to tell you what is

the ultimate cost of that vote. The Admiralty, therefore,

desires to show the expenditure which a vote entails not

only in the present but during future years. If you turn to
page 63 I will explain the new system. It will be seen that
the vote for engines already ordered is i 415,880. That is

what we propose to take in this year and next year, deduct-
ing £108,900 to be voted in future years. We require for

engines already sanctioned by the house £306,980. lam
going to ask the committee to agree to purchase a certain

number of new engines, and they will cost £276,000, of
which we propose to take during the present year £130,440,
As to thatbranch of the vote, it is entirely within the power
of the committee to give the whole or a part of it. None of
those engines are ordered. That is what we ask you to allow
us with regard to steam-engines. When we come to the
vote I can show the number of engines, the horse-Power,
and all the details connected with them. With regard to
ship-building by contract, some hon. gentleman moved for

a return of the cost of these ships. I stated why it was no
advisable to give the cost of each ship. The ships building
by contract are the Hector and Valiant, two troopships, and
four iron-easiell ships, three already sanctioned, and one Capt.
Coles' ship. Therefore the house has already agreed to three
out of the four iron-cased ships, and it is for the committee to
decide whether we shall commence the fourth ship. The
effect of all this is that the vote is £966,141 for vessels
building by contract, both the new and those sanctioned by
Parliament. There is one item with which I must trouble
the committee. It is the last heading, which is altogether
a novelty—" for experimental purposes, sundries, and pos.
Bible contingencies, £40,000." This is a large sum, I admit.
(Hear, hear, from Mr. Williams.) But let it be clearly
understood that if we are going to build these novel vessels
we must, if we are to have anything like a certainty of suc-
cess, experimentaliso on a large scale. (Hear.) It is the
worst policy in the world to stint your experiments, and I
must tell you that in the course of building. these iron ships
we continually see that some little change is necessary. I
have a great dislike to alterations of ships, and I have often'
expressed it ; but it is inseparable from the very novelty of
these ships that we should have here and there to make
alterations. (Hear.) I will state frankly that lam not
prepared to say we shall spend it 01, but you must remem-
ber that in contracts we are tied down to a certain sum, and
there must be some margin in case any little alterations
should be required. I have only a word or two to say upon
another item—the expenditure on docks. The great want
of the day is large docks. (Hear, hear.) We hear on all
sides that we have not docks enough, and that we must have
larger docks. It is true that if we are to build these very
large ships we must enlarge our docks. The committee
last year agreed to the enlargement of Chatham Dockyard,
and I have no doubt it will become one of the wonders of
the world. In the present year we propose to lengthen two
more docks, besides the docks already lengthened, the cost
of which is detailed under the various dockyards, and the
votes for which I shall be happy to explain. We propose
to lengthen one of the docks at Portsmouth within the
basin, to enable such ships as the Minotaur and Warrior
to enter. We likewise propose to lengthen the dock at
Keyham for the same purpose. In vote 11 we ask for
money to commence our naval barracks at Devonport. We
likewise ask for a vote to allow of building at each of our
great yards machinery for bending iron plates. One of
the most difficult processes is bending the plates. It is
very easy to get plates either rolled or hammered. An
hon gentleman asked whether we were going to
use rolled plates. From experiments we have made
we find there ite very little difference between rolled plates
and hammered plates, only the machinery must be very
powerful to roll plates above five inches. At present nothing
exists to roll plates above five inches in thickness. We
propose to erect at each of the five building yards hydraulic
machinery, by which the plates may be bent on the spot,
and put on the ships there and then. (Hear.) It is right
I should allude to the civil pensions. The increase caused
_by the Superannuation Act of 1859 is very considerable; in
fact, my belief is that if you take the average you will find
that the Superannuation Act very nearly doubles the pen-
sions of artificers. It is a serious question, and I call the
attention of the committee to the probability that these civil
pensions will increase year by year. (Hear.) Then we come
to the last vote, namely—the vote for the transport depart-
ment; and here we have a considerable decrease. But I
wish again to repeat that the £42,450 which stands at the
head of the vote is the last instalment for freight of ships
on monthly pay, and that with that exception the supple-
mentary vote included all the expenses for North America.
I cannot leave this subject without one word in recalling to
the committee that which no doubt has struck many before
—viz., the marvellous power of this country which enabled
us to send off this mass of tran'ports at a short notice and
at such a time of the year without in the least degree disar-
ranging the intercolonial and-packet service. (Hear.) I
merely mention it as interesting to every one ; and now I
thank the committee for having listened to me so patiently.
I can assure hon. gentlemen that we are fully impressed
with the magnitude of these estimates. I am quite sure that
there is no department which more earnestly desires reduc-
tion than the Admiralty. But remember that we have had
to construct a new navy—(hear)—that we are constructing
a new navy. (Hear.) Remember that we are organising a
vast corps of reserves, upon whom in all future time the
Inm:oar and power of this country will greatly depend.
(Cheers.) It is the bounden duty of every department of the
Government to look first to the protection of the country.
We have lived in troublous times. If we can live at peace
with all the world the Government will be only too thankful
to decrease the estimates. At the same time, I will be no
party to any great and sudden reduction which will cripple
the navy end imperil the safety end honour of the country.
(Cheers.) The noble and gallant lord concluded by moving
the first vote, of £3,078,121 for the wages of 74,850 seamen
and marines.
Sir J. PAKINGTON believed that the committee would
be of opinion that the noble lord had shown himself com-
pletely entitled to the attention which he acknowledged to
have received. The noble lord had made a statement occu-
pying a considerable time, but full of great interest, and be
had made it with that degree of clearness and frankness
which had characterised the noble lord's statements on pre-
vious similar occasions. (Hear, hear.) He was happy to
say that he agreed with a very considerable portion of what
had fallen from the noble lord ; but there were one or two
points, in respect to whisk he confessed that, at present he
was unable to express his entire concurrence, and on
which he should be glad to elicit some further explana-
tion. The noble lord explained the amount of force in
commission, and its proposed distribution, but appeared to
reduce the Channel fleet within limits hardy consistent
with what of late years the interests of the country were
'deemed to require. He understood the noble lord
to say that the Channel fleet was to be reduced
to two line-of-kittle ships, two iron-plated ships—the War-
rior and the Black Prince, it might be presumed—and two
frigates and corvettes. The amount, therefore, was limited
to somo six "sr seven sail. (Lore C. Paget : " Ten sail.")
He was glad to hear that correction, but he was still sorry
to understand that there were to be only two line-of-battle
ships among the Channel fleet, because the efficient main-
tenance of the Channel fleet was not only connected with
the question of national defence, but involved important
considerations with respect to training, disciplining, and
practising the men. (Hear, hear.) In these days nothing
was more desirable than that attention should be paid to
steam, tactics ; and he should therefore have been glad to
hear that the Channel fleet was to be maintained at a larger
amount. The next statement, to which he attached great
importance, was the amount of the men disposable over and
above the requirements of the ships in commission, in order
to afford reliefs to the ships that might be paid off. Ho
understood that there were in hand at present a sufficient
amount of men to man four frigates; and he congratulated
the noble lord on making an approach to that state of
things which seemed to be essential to the power and dig-
nity of the royal navy. With respect to the amount of the
reserves, the noble lord's statement was highly satisfactory,
but he was not sure that the noble lord did not attach a
little more importance to the Coast Volunteer force than it
deserved. But here, again, it was impossible with any
candour or truth to deny that a rapid advance was being
made, no doubt owing very much to the labours of that
commission of which his hon. friend opposite was a
most distinguished member ; and he was glad to
see that the Admiralty were carrying out the
recommendations of that commission. One of the
most important recommendations of the commis-
sion had reference to the school training-ships, and he
hoped he correctly understood the noble lord to indi-
cate, in referring to certain training-ships, that they were,
in fact,a portion of that system. IL; attached great im-
portan c,e to the plan as tending to connect the Royal Navy
with the merchant service, and he was glad to find that the
noble lord was thoroughly aware of the importance of esta-
blishing a good feeling between those two services. (Hear.)
He had heard with sincere pleasure that so many men of the
mercantile marine had been willing to comply with the terms
offered, and had expressed willingness to form part of the
reserve upon which the country might depend for increas-
ing the Royal Navy at a period of emergency. (Hear.) The
next point to which he should refer was one of those por-
tions of the noble lord's statement in which he was least
able to express concurrence—namely, the deductions from
the complements of our ships. On this point he did not re-
gard the explanation of the noble lord to be quite satisfac-
tory. The noble lord alluded to the ships being over-
crowded; but afterwards, 'speaking Ito t" NAllor, thy Noble

lord mentioned that he had been glad to get all the men he

could, forgetting at the moment all about the unhealthy
state of the lower docks from over-crowding. (Hear, hoar.)
He went most willingly with the noble lord's statement,

as far as regarded ventilation and the adoption of all
prudent means for increasing the health of the British
sailor, but when the noble lord said that he was going to
diminish the number of men in the lower decks and to
reduce the complements of the ships, it was to be feared that
by that process the efficiency of the men-of-war would
be weakened. This was not a new question ; for what
induced that very distingui.hed sailor, Admiral Berkeley,
to resign his seat at the Admiralty some years ago ? Was
it not the proposition to have peace establishments in the
ships of the navy, and to reduce the number of the crew, in
time of peace, to such an extent that the ships could not be
worked without casting undue labour on the men, thereby
placing the officers in a humiliating and painful position
when they came to work the ships in the presence of the
men-of-war of other countries ? He regretted to hear what
fell from the noble lord on this point, and believed the reso-
lution come to a mistake. The contentment and satisfaction
of the sailors was an important matter, and they would not
be found to be satisfied orwilling to serve in the Royal Navy
if they were overworked in consequence of the ships being
undermanned. This matter was worthy of attention, in
reference to the complement of men to be awarded to the
new class of ships coming into existence. The former prin-
ciple in reference to manning turned, he believed, on the
number of guns in each ship. This was necessarily at an
end, for the number of guns was no longer a test of the size
of a ship. The largest vessel in the service was the Warrior,
and had only 40 guns, so that any idea of regulating the crew
of a ship by the guns must be abandoned. In future the
amount of the crew would require to be regulated by the
rigging and size of the vessel, and by the work which the
men had to perform, and he was afraid the Admiralty had
fallen into a mistake in proposing to reduce the complements
in the manner explained. (Hear, hear.) With respect to
the question of improvement, he doubted ver3 much whether
it was wise to adopt as a general rule the course of shutting
sailors up in gaol, and he feared it had been too much the
tendency of successive Courts of Admiralty to interfere with
the discretion of commanders of ships, and to prevent them
from carrying out that discipline which was so essential to
the navy. Be that, however, as it might, the Government,
he felt assured, was quite right in setting aside as far as pos-
sible the practice of sending sailors to common county gaols,
inasmuch as, if they were to be placed in confinement at all,
it was better they should be sent to prisons attached to the
Admiralty. His noble friend, he might add, had spoken
in a tone of pride of the manner in which our ships had
been fitted out in a week, and no one could have cora
plained more loudly than himself of a state of things in
which two or three months had been occupied in the
raising of crews. That state of things was, however, he
hoped, at an end, and he doubted very much whether, un-
less in cases of great emergency, it was wise to fit out ships
in a week. He said so because he was afraid that a vessel
fitted out in that time might not always be sent to sea in a
condition to do her credit as a portion of the British navy.
His noble friend had also referred to another question of
great importancc,—he meant the reduction of the arma-
ment of ships, and had referred to the straining of vessels
as caused by the weight of the guns. Now he believed that
many of the heaviest of our men-of-war had strained
very much at sea of late, but then he believed the fact was
attributable not so much to the weight of their guns as of
their engines ; indeed he feared the tendency to strain was
the unavoidable consequence of the adoption of steam. He
might further observe that he had heard with great satis-
faction that the Admiralty intended to give a trial to Cap-
tain Coles' cupola ships, and the House of Commons would,
he trusted, feel that the department was only taking a pru-
dent course in thus dealing with the most promising inven-
tion. He was also glad to hear the statement of his noble
friend with regard to the Warrior, and he wished he had
informed the c,ommitten whether the defect which he had
mentioned in connexion with her could not be remedied.
[Lord C. Paget—lt has been remedied.] Then he was not
sure that his noble friend might not have done as well in
omitting to allude to the matter altogether. (A laugh.) Be
that, however; as it might, he must say he had heard with
great satisfaction the statement that the Admiralty were
about to abandon Somerset-house, and that the whole de-
partment was to be centred in one locality, although he did
not know where. [Lord C. Paget—Spring-gardens-ter-
race.] He was glad to hear that the change:was proposed,
because great practical inconvenience, in his opinion, re •
suited from the division of the department. There was only
another point on which he need detain the committee by ob-
serving, and that was the extension of our dockyards, which
looking at the extension of our navy, was, he thought in-
dispensable. He trusted, therefore, the Admiralty would
persevere in their intention to extend Chatham dockyard.
fie need not detain the committee by making any further
comment on the statement of his noble friend. He had, he
hoped, dealt with it, as he meant to do, in a courteous spirit,
and he was happy to be able to trace in the estimates laid on
the table a determination on the part of the Admiralty to
maintain the full efficiency and power of the Navy. (Hear.)
Mr. W. WILLIAMS should like to know what was the
ultimate object of the enormous expenditure proposed with
the view of increasing and strengthening our fleet ? In
1852 the number of men voted for the navy was 39,000,
and in the hottest year of the Russian war the number was
76,000, including 10,000 boys. The Government wanted
74,850 for the present year, and that number was exclusive
of 10,000 for the Reserve. He was anxious to maintain the
efficiency of the navy, but he objected to uncalled-for ex-
travagance, and thought the time had arri% ed when Par-
liament ought to interfere. The saving of £481,000 on the
expenditure of last year was wholly accounted for by the
smaller quantity of timber and machinery required for the
present year, and in the majority of votes there was a de-
cided increase of expenditure. He asked the Secretary to
the Admiralty to explain under what authority the Govern.
ment employed about 1,880 men more than were voted last
session.

Mr. H. BENTINCK had listened with great satisfac-
tion to the clear and able statement of the Secretary to the
Admiralty, and he had no fault to find with it. He had
been much struck with the remarks of the hon. member for
Sunderland. The hon. gentleman, like all sensible and
patriotic Englishmen, was anxious to maintain the supe-
riority of our navy, but at the same time he had virtually
asserted that there was no necessity for the existence of that
navy at all. (Mr. Lindsay—No.) The hon. member had
told them that the reports of the great exertions made by
the French to construct and send to sea a fleet of iron-
plated ships were all delusive, and that no apprehensions
need be entertained on that score. He had stated moreover
that our own preparations were quite uncalled for, because
he was convinced that the Emperor of the French had no
intention to go to war with this country. (" Hear, hear,"
from Mr. Lindsay.) It was much to be doubted whether
the hon. gentleman really knew what was passing in the
mind of the Emperor of the French ; but however that might
be, it would be folly to take the temper or inclination of any
potentate on the face of the earth as a guide for the naval
preparations of England. (Hear.) It was admitted that our
navy ought to be superior to the fleets of all other countries
put together. By acting upon that axiom we should pursue
a safer and more economic 1.1 course than if we were to cut
down our Estimates year after year, according to what
might be the state of preparations in other countries and
the temporary aspect of European affairs. (Hear.) The
Secretary to the Admiralty had spoken of the necessity
for better ventilation on board men-of-war. Did the noble
lord mean to say that that was a sufficient reason for a re-
duction in the number of men ?
Lord C. PAGET said it was one of the reasons, but he
never meant to state that it was the principal reason. The
principal reason was the straining of the ships, which ren-
dered it necessary to lighten the weights.
Mr. BENTINCK could not help thinking, with all defer-
ence to his noble friend, that the disproportionate length of
ships had a great deal more to do with their straining than
any other cause. But his noble friend said the Admiralty
must decide the question of the number of men ships should
carry. He should like then to know if that question was to
be referred to the nautical portion of the Board. If so, well
and good. But they had lately heard that the civilian First
Lord at the head of the Admiralty considered himself, in
all cases where his views differed from those of the naval
members of the Board, lord paramount. That was a very
unsatisfactory state of things. With respect to the smaller
class of iron vessels, his impression was that they were
going to very considerable expense to alter and sheath with
iron a class of vessels that would not be so useful as bis
noble friend seemed to imagine. If they would expend a
larger sum in the construction of vessels of the Warrior
class, it would be a better outlay of money than devoting
a comparatively smaller sum to the purpose of trans-
forming old vessels into small iron-plated ships. There
was one item mentioned by his noble friend which gave
him very great pleasure. One great difficulty at the Ad-
miralty had been that there was no fund from which to
draw in making experiments and testing suggestions. He
thought it most important that the Admiralty should have
such a sum at their disposal. It was often stated that they
were perfectly willing to afford facilities for testing valua-
ble suggestions, but they had not at their command funds
for the purpose, and they could not undertake to say that
the house would sanction such expenditure. He was,
therefore, glad to learn that his noble friend contemplated
a change in this respect. His noble friend wound up by
saying that he considered he was making his arrangements
in quiet times. He was not prepared to say these were not
quiet times, but he would be a bold man who would under-
take to say how long quiet times would last. H e was glad,
however, to find that there was to be no material reduction
in the efficiency of the navy, for nothing, he was persuaded,
could be more injurious to the best interests of the country
than the assumption that now, or for many years to come,
such a reduction could be made.
Mr. LINDSAY admitted that our first duty was to see
that the country was properly defended, but the second
duty of the House of Commons was to see that no money
was spent unnecessarily, especially. when there was a large
body in the country suffering severely. There were a great
many points in which ho agreed with his noble friend. On
these he would not touch ; he would restrict himself to
those on which he differed from his noble friend. The
right hon. barunet the member for Droitwich agreed 'with
his noble friend in almost all he said; especially he agreed
with him in spending a great amount of money, He even
Iwent further, for the right hon. gentleman
.appeared to
think that the Chalrnel fleet was not large enough. The