The Sun.
London, England, 1865-03-03 00:00:00

THE REFITTING OF SHIPS.

Mr. SEELY rose to call attention to the apparently
excessive cost of fitting out, refitting, and repairing certain
of her Majesty's ships, and to other items in the dockyard
accounts that appeared to require explanation. He did so
because it appeared to him those ships had cost more than
other similar ships, and because he thought the Secretary
for the Admiralty should have the opportunity of contra-
dicting or explaining the statements he was about to make.
It appeared from the returns that the Falcon, a ship carry-
ing 17 guns, 751 tons, and of 100-horse power, cost in re-

pairing in the year 1864 the sum of £26,642. (Hear.) The
cost of building that ship by contract would not have been
more than £2l per ton, but, giving the Government £2B per
ton, and calculating the engines at £55 per horse, which
was he thought rather more than the Government would
pay, he found that if they had bought a new vessel of the
the same tonnage as the Falcon they would only have paid
£26,528. The next vessel to which he would refer was the
Lion, a vessel of 488 tons, and 60-horse power. She cost
in repairing £17,653. She would have cost, if new, accord-
ing to the same rate of £2B per ton and £55 per horse,
£16,964. Her hull cost in repairing £15,000 ; if new, it
would have cost £13,664. (Hear.) The next vessel was
the Wasp, of 974 tons, and 100-horse power. She cost in
repairing £32,000. She would have cost if new £33,772 ;
but he would also draw his hon. friend's attention to this,
that in the years 1860-1 that vessel cost £8,442, so that
with the cost of 1863-4 that vessel cost £38,919. If built
new, she would have cost £32,772. The Sharpshooter,
which cost £18,249 in repairs, would have cost if new
£19,694. Here, too, was a statement he could hardly un-
derstand. The engines of the Sharpshooter cost in repair-
ing £9,249. They might have obtained new engines of
the highest class for £5,616. (Hear, hear.) The next
vessel was the Salamander.

Sir J. PAKINGTON—When were they built ?

Mr. SEELY—The Wasp was built in 1850, the Falcon in
1854. The Salamander cost £22,728 in repairing, and she had
cost £10,950 in 1862-3 ; but if new she could be bought for
£34,000. The Bulldog had a tonnage of 1,124 and a horse-
power of 500. Well, the repairs of the Bulldog for 1863-64
cost £33,700; for 1861-62, £2,092; and for 1860-61,
£10,518. At the same time, in these calculations a great
many items were omitted which ought to have been
charged. For example, the wages of the artificers were
charged, but the pensions which ought to be allowed to
them wore not. Again, the wages of the foreman and
other
these
rworkmen in the dockyards were not included
in eacelluenllts, itofw stshefocrostht
the country
oobunuiltdryingto andpr ssreupairpon-
in g ships.the Admiralty the necessity ofgiving a true account of
what things really did cost. And next as to the
conversion of timber. In the return for 1862-63, it
was stated
neby nt. abovetheA
thedrairaltythat th
rate-book value. Now, in-
stead of these conversions being effected at ex
4e perwascent.
only 4pe
above the rate-book value, he found they were effected at
15 per cent. above the rate-book value. But if all the
acon-
versions of timber in the different dockyards had been made
at the cost of the lowest yard, no less a v
£55,496 a year would be secured. Probably itsa Mg than
might be re-
plied to him that they had not the same appliances,
notianceLthe
same machinery, in all the yards. But why h i
In two years £2,782,910 had been voted for repairs and
improvements improvements in machinery; and why was not a portion of
that large sum dedicated to enabling the country to save
the sum of £55,000 in each single year ? lie would next
refer to the stock accounts. According to the returns of
the Admiralty, he calculated that between the years 1848
and 1864 no less than .£3,762,281 was added to the stock
accounts. Well, they might naturally ask where those
stocks were. He believed the stock of materials now on
hand might be assessed at £5,000,000 ; but if that were so,
could any one accustomed to business suppose that in 1848
the stocks amounted to but £1,250,000 Really the state
of the accounts was most unsatisfactory. There was not
an Admiralty reformer that had spoken ofit more clearly
than the noble lord the present Secretary to the Admiralty,
and there was not a member of that house or a man of
business in the City who had a more complete conception
of 'what was needed in this matter than the noble lord ; and
yet there they were, five years after the noble.lord's speak-
ing out, without having made any progress. If the noble
lord had used his power as Secretary to the Admiralty, and
had given orders to any professional accountant in the
City, he would very soon have received a debtor and credi-
t,o_r.account of the money received by the department. But,
indeed he need not have gone to a professional accoun-
tant ; all that he had to do was to go to his own accountant,
Sir Richard Bromley. Sirßichard Bromley had a clear con-
ceptionwas
He of what wanted, and so also had Sir Baldwin
the evil
board,, vas
mighthat thegiv esyths teem:
hweatstear batted-
counts, but a board would be unable to give them things
one. thought that

eases.

at a fair cost. Not one of the Lords of the Admiralty
knew what a thing ought to cost—(hear, hear)—nor did
the superintendents of the different dockyards, of whom,
however, he wished to speak with the greatest respect.
What was wanted was fitness in the various offices ; but if

they looked simply to political patronage, and not to put-
ting into office the parties best able to discharge the duties

required of them, so long would these conversions of tim-
ber be executed at a much higher rate than was neces-

sary, and so long would there be accounts like those to

which he had drawn the attention of the house.

Mr. CHILDERS said that with regard to the appoint-
ment of a chaplain-general for the navy, he hoped the house
would pause before they created a new office of that kind.

At present a naval chaplain was intended to be the friend

and adviser of every one on board his vessel, both officers

and men. There were reasons, which must be patent to

every one who considered the freedom of opinion in the
Church of England, why it would be inexpedient that all
chaplains should be selected by one clergyman. The ap-
pointment of a chaplain-general would be attended with
inconvenience and danger, and it would not be palatable to
the great body of naval chaplains. With respect to the
figures quoted by the hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Seely),
he would take the case of the Falcon. According to the
hon. member, the expenditure on the hull of that vessel
was out of all proportion to what it ought to have been.

Now, he found from the returns entitled "Navy ships,
1863-4," that the expenditure on the hull of the Falcon
during that year was £14,000, in addition to a certain pro-

portion of general incidental expenses charged upon the
whole ship. Taking that proportion, he might say that

the total expenditure on the hull was £2l or £22 per ton,

whereas his hon. friend allowed that 418 or .C 29 would not

have been too much. Then, again, the amount expended
on the hull of the Bulldog, a ship of 1,124 tons, was
£15,000, including a fair proportion of incidental expenses.
That, then, only came to £l3 or £l4 per ton. The
_ _

sum expended on the hull of the Salamander was
only about £ll per ton. His hon. friend had asked why
ships of that class were repaired. The answer was that if

new ones had been built we should have had to wait

nine months or a year longer; and besides at that time the
great force of the Government was applied to iron ships,
which made it more advisable to repair these wooden ships
than to construct new ones. As to the conversion of tim-
ber, it was impossible to have uniformity in the rate book,
for this reason—that in some dockyards the price of rough
timber was much higher than in others, and therefore a
considerable loss resulted from its conversion, though it
should be borne in mind that if this loss took place in a
dockyard it was counterbalanced by advantages which that
particular dockyard might possess with regard to the low
price of coal, &c. For instance, in 1863 the price of Eng-
lish oak was £8 19s. at Devonport, £7 12s. at Portsmouth,
and £6 15s. at Sheerness. It was obviously impoisible,
therefore, to establish a uniform rate. With reference to
the rate book, he would only say that the rules as regarded
the conversion of timber had been found very arbitrary, and
it was intended to substitute one uniform rate instead of the
five or six different rates that now existed. The variation
with reference to the expense of materials would continue,
but the effect of the proposed arrangement would be to
place the accounts for the conversion of timber on a more
satisfactory footing than heretofore. The next subject re-
ferred to by the hon. gentleman was the discrepancy between
the financial account and the amount of labour, and he com-
plained that the two did not balance. It was quite impos-
sible that the cash account could balance with the stores in
the yard ; but if they analysed the accounts closely, the dis-
crepany would not appear so great as stated by the hon. gen-
tleman. The finance accounts would show a considerable
excess over the expense accounts ; or in other words, they
had purchased vastly more stores than they applied to the
building and repairing of ships. It was impossible to bal-
ance these, for until the present year there had been no
valuation stock account taken; and it was therefore out of
his power to say the stock for 1860 or 1861 was so much,
and the difference would be the difference between the bal-
ance properly adjusted of the accounts of cash and expen-
diture. The stock valuation account would be taken and
continued in all former years, and by that means it would
be possible to produce a proper balance-sheet from year to
year. That system came into operation in the present
financial year, and when the house went into committee
on the estimates he would take the opportunity of stating
in what way the accounts of the dockyards would be kept,
so as to show at the end of each year a strict commercial
balance-sheet in addition to the ordinary manufacturing
accounts of the different ships based upon the principle of
cash. (Hear.) Under this system, the business done in
the dockyards would be conducted upon the same principle
as if it were done by a private establishment. (Hear.) He
did not regret the speech of the hon. gentleman, and he had
done his best to state what the result of the new arrange-
ments would be ; and, for his own part, he thought the
more discussions they had the better.
TREATMENT OF PRISONERS IN NEWGATE.

Mr. LOCKE called the attention of the house to the man-
ner in which prisoners were detained in Newgate whilst
under remand, and asked the Secretary for the Home De-
partment whether it was proposed to take any steps for
affording them better treatment. The hou. member said
the case which formed the subject of his motion arose out
of a charge of conspiracy and larceny brought against two
gentlemen by an insurance office; and what he had to com-
plain of was that those parties, before any charge of guilt
was established against them, were subjected to degrading
treatment. They were not criminals, but were con-

fined in prison for the purpose of being brought before
the magistrates to have the case tried, and yet they were
made to clean their own cells, were not allowed knives
and forks at their dinner, and could only see their friends
through a double grating, with a gaoler standing by.
Although in the eye of the law innocent, yet they were
treated in prison like felons. Mr. Sergeant Ballantine,
who appeared for the defendants, complained of the dis-
graceful treatment to which they had been subjected,
and the statements of the learned gentleman were not
denied by the counsel for the prosecution nor by the
sitting magistrate, Alderman Stone. In point of fact, the
alderman charged upon the Home Secretary all the evils
of Newgate, and put the right hon: baronet upon his de-
fence. The state of things which was admitted on all hands
was this. The right• hon. baronet admitted everything in
his answer to him a week since. He Aid, if those persons
had been coerced illegally they had their remedy ; but it
appeared from Mr. Alderman Stone's statement that it was
not the fault of the City, but of the right hon. baronet the
Secretary of State. Was the right hon. gentleman awaro
of the way these things were done throughout the country,
and did he intend in the bill he had introduced to provide
a remedy ?
Mr. TORRENS called attention to the treatment of per-
sons charged at police stations, giving an instance of two
persons named Hall, who were kept all night in wet clothes,
from the effects of which one had died within twelve hours
from bronchitis. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would
take some steps to remedy such cruelty in the future.
Sir G. GREY could not give any explanation on this
matte; because no notice had been given of its being in-
troduced. If such notice had been given, he had no doubt
a sufficient answer would have been forthcoming. With
regard to the matter referred to by the hon. member for
Southwark, he knew nothing of the merits of the case. He
had had no complaints whatever, either from the persons
themselves, who were still, he believed, under remand, or
from any other persons in Newgate, of any illegal or even
harsh treatment to which they had been subjected. If he
had, he should have addressed the only persons who were
competent to remedy the complaints, viz., the visiting jus-
tices of the prison, who were the aldermen of the city of
London, and have required them to make a report upon the
matter.
The house then went into committee of supplypro forme/ ,
and immediately resumed.
COURTS OF JUSTICE BUILDING BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
COURT OF CHANCERY IRELAND (No. 2) BILL.
COURT OF CHANCERY IRELAND (No. 3) BILL.
These bills were read a second time.
COLONIES MARITIME DEFENCE.

Mr. CARDWELL moved for leave to bring in a bill to
enable the colonies to make better provision for their own
maritime defence. The main object of the bill he ex-
pinined to be to extend the principle on which the Royal
naval reserve was organised to all the maritime colonies of
the empire, and to enable those colonies to train, under the
same conditions as the Royal naval reserve, all their sea-
faring population. Thero is another purpose of this act.
The colony of Victoria desired to have, and in fact had at
present, a ship of war. At present, however, that vessel
Was not entitled to the privileges of a ship of war, as it
was not under the control of the Imperial Government.
This bill would enable a colony in time of peace or war to
place a ship or ships under the control of the Lords of the
Admiralty, and thereby to acquire for such ship or ships
the rights and privileges of a public ship. The bill would
also enable the maritime inhabitants of several colonies, or
even of the whole of the English colonies and depen-
dencies, to be united into one body for the defence of the
British empire, or any of the colonies.
In answer to Mr. W. Mum,
Mr. CARDWELL said that the bill contemplated
nothing being done except at the expense of the colonies.
The bill was then brought in and read a first time.
The house adjourned at five minutes past eleven.

A NEW KIND OF CONSCIENCE MONEY.—STAF•
FORD-HOUSE, March I.—The Duke of Sutherland acknow-
ledges the receipt of a ,f.,5 note from ---, 64 returned per•
centage."—

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Railway and other Companies.

_.-.11.-

GREAT WESTERN.
The half-yearly general meeting of this company
was held yesterday at the Paddington station,—Mr.
R. Potter, the chairman, presided.
Mr. F. G. Saunders, the secretary, having read
the notice convening the meeting, the report, which
has already appeared, was taken as read.
The CHAIRMAN, in moving the adoption of the
report, said that the most prominent feature in it
was that the gross receipts for traffic during the past
half year showed an increase of £135,000 as com-
pared with those for the corresponding period of
1863. The most disappointing matter was that out
of that increase they were only able to offer the
shareholders an increase in the sum available for
dividend of £30,000, and in offering them that
amount he would explain how the remainder had
been expended. He might mention, however, that
the dividend for the year 1863 amounted to £2 7s.
per cent., and for the year 1864 to £3 2s. 6d. per
cent. (Hear, hear.) Now one of the largest items
of increased expenditure had arisen from interest
charges, £16,000 for the six months ending Jan.,
1865, as compared with those for the same half year
ending Jan., 1864. Of that sum £7,000 was for
interest on the increase of capital expended, and
there was a sum of £4,000 for capital expended on
the Aberdare branch of the Newport section. He
might tell them that there was not one farthing of
interest on capital that had not been charged to re-
venue. They had been as severe on revenue as
possible, so as not to increase the capital of the com-
pany in any way that could be avoided. (Hear.)
There was a charge of £5,000 for an increase of the
interest owing to the charges for higher rates of
money that had prevailed during the last six months,
and, looking to the large amount of floating
debt, he did not think that the increase of
£5,000, owing to the increased rates, was more
than could have been reasonably expected.. Another
large item of increase in expense was £lB,OOO for
additional rent-charges for lines leased by this com-
pany, as compared with those for the corresponding
period ending Jan. 31, 1864. Several new lines had
been opened—the Tenbury and Bewdley, and the
extension of the Wycombe from Thame to Oxford
and Aylesbury. The Tenbury and Bewdley was a
line over which the London and North-Western
could get access from South Staffordshire and Man-
chester to South Wales. In a year or two that was
likely to be one of the most profitable lines they had.
On the first opening of lines the expense of working
was considerable as compared with the receipts.
The line from Thame to Oxford and Aylesbury was
carried out when the West Midland were projecting
an independent line to London for themselves, and
it now furnished a second line to Oxford through
Buckinghamshire. Those lines had been worked
during the half year without yielding any profit to
the company. The Hampstead' and City and the
Colebrookdale branch had been opened for traffic
during the half-year. With regard to the locomotive
expenses, they had exceeded by £8,200 those for the
corresponding period, but the charge per train mile
was less than for the same half of the preceding year.
The additional mileage run by the trains during the
past half-year was 700,000 miles, which also tended
to increase the expenses. The same might be said of
the item for carriage and waggon expenses, which had
shown an increaseof £7,800. In the carrying account
there was an increase of £19,000, and in the general
charges of £12,000. 'Those items of increase had
been partly caused by additional expenses, and were
partly necessitated by a desire to provide for the
convenience and safety of the public. They had
been compelled to increase their staff and to reduce
the rates charged in consequence of the strike, and
they had thus obtained a carrying traffic between
Staffordshire and South Wales, which he hoped
would recompense them by the interchange of new
traffic. There was not sufficient rolling stock or
adequate siding accommodation at many places on
their system, but when those were provided the pre-
sent working expenses, in some respects, would be
diminished. They had made traffic and other ar-
rangements with the Vale of Neath and the Metro-
politan Railway Companies, which he trusted would
be beneficial. That made with the Vale of Neath
Company would give them access to the Aberdare
coal district and to the docks at Swansea, which
would save them much expense in working the mine-
ral traffic. They had placed Mr. J. Williams, the
general manager of the Vale of Nea,th Railway, at
the head of the Welsh district, and from his perfect
knowledge of the requirements of the trade, and
other circumstances, the new arrangement would be
beneficial to all parties. The arrangement with the
Metropolitan would give the Great Western access
to the heart of the city of London, and bring them
into communication with the " Inner Circle line."
The long traffic from Bristol, Birmingham, and other
places would be developed by means of quick trains
running into the Finsbury station, and also the sub-
urban traffic would be brought into operation. The
present station at Farringdon-street, which now
covered about 31 acres, would be leased to the Great
Western at a certain rent for a goods station. This
would save them four miles of cartage, and enable
them to carry and deliver a certain description of
goods traffic that they could not get before. He
trusted they would unanimously approve those ar-
rangements.
i (Cheers.) During the half-year they
l e pool
against
had entered into an agreement with the London and
North-Western for the joint possession of the
iff
Railway,They
hh e
awdh i
alsoc h
interest h a
agreed
rf beenethe
d
heretofore
e
sbur
yand
worked
Vl
rathers h
S
Great Western Company.
with the South-Western Company f • tle
ase
of a join
of the Weymouth and Portland line, which, he
hoped, would be opened for traffic in a few
weeks. They had also agreed with the Metropolitan
Company to take a joint lease of the Hammersmith
and City line, on the principle of allowing a re bate
on four miles of the Metropolitan and one mile of
the Great Western, equivalent to a fixed guarantee
of 5 per cent. for the first year, rising for four years
at the rate of 2s. 6d. per cent. until it arrived at 5i
per cent., which was to be continued for 999 years.
This would give them an outlet for their minerals,
and tend to develope the traffic on the main line.
The Board had appointed Mr. Young, one of the
members of an eminent firm, to conduct their law
and Parliamentary business for a stipulated amount,
and he trusted that in future there would be a saving
under that head. They proposed to raise £1,000,000
more capital for the purpose of satisfying the public
requirements and to accommodate the increase of
traffic, to construct and improve stations at Slough,
Reading, and other places, and to provide additional
rolling stock. They proposed to interchange traffic
with the South Eastern and Brighton Companies,
and to take the express lines on one side of the new
joint station to be built at Reading, so as to avoid
accidents. The workshops at Swindon would be
enlarged to meet the requirements of increased traffic,
and to keep their working stock in efficient repair.
They proposed to lay down the narrow gauge over
the Hereford, Ross, and Gloster line, which would
complete their narrow gauge communication from
South Wales to Birkenhead. The outlay on those
facilities and improvements would be most productive
to the company, and would yield 20, 30, or 40 per cent.
He then explained that the by-law which had been
agreed upon two years ago for preventing the for-
mation of any extension lines without the permission
of the shareholders could not be acted upon to the
letter, as they were often surrounded with speculative
competitive schemes. While the directors were will-
ing to 'carry out the spirit of that by-law, they could
not, in the interests of the company, be bound by
the letter of it. They had agreed to form, in con-
junction with the Midland and Bristol and Exeter
Company, a joint station at Bristol, as the present
one was quite inadequate to accommodate the traffic.
There was a new line proposed from the Midland
Railway at Hendon through Buckinghamshire to the
East Gloucestershire Railway, which was a specula-
tive, needless, and injurious scheme, and he had
confidence in the wisdom of Parliament that they
would reject it. With regard to the Government
commission to inquire into the working expenses of
railways, the directors would endeavour to further
their object and furnish them with every informa-
tion in their power. He hoped that it would be so
composed as to fairly represent the vast mass of
capital that had been expended on the railways, and
that the commission would also inquire into the
causes and effects of the action of Parliament gene-

rally on the railway system, and as to how an eco-
nomical and beneficial state of things could be esta-
blished for the future. He had no doubt that the
traffic on the company's line would go on increas-
ing, and if the proprietors would give the directors
the means of carrying it on in a proper manner he
had no doubt the result would be satisfactory to the
proprietors. A period when the receipts were increas-
ing was the time of all others to economise the ex-
penses. He could assure them that the promotion
and advancement of every officer in their service
would depend on the vigour and prudence with
which he economised every item of expenditure in
his department. He hoped, therefore, to see a
complete system of economy pervading every de-
partment of their great undertaking. (Hear.)
Mr. W. FENTOiC, deputy chairman, seconded the
motion for the adoption of the report.

Major COURT thought the directors ought to have
stated in their report the amount expended on the
Vale of Neath line, and the grounds upon which they
recommended the amalgamation with that company.
Mr. DELAHUNTY called attention to the ener-
getic manner in which the London and North-
Western Railway Company were endeavouring to
secure the whole of the Irish traffic. He contended
that the southern portion of that traffic belonged to
the Great ' Western Company, and that proper
means should be immediately adopted to secure it.
Lord R. CECIL was glad to say they had now
a very efficient Board, and a very able chairman,
and he thought that fully justified the shareholders
in supporting the Board in every way they could.
He should like to know the amount of the Parlia-
mentary expenses during the past half-year.

Mr. Marriott said that the London and North-
Western were not satisfied with getting their fair
share of the Irish traffic, but had taken steps in the
north and south to secure the whole of it.
Mr. TAYLOR stated that he found from the ac-
counts that the legal and Parliamentary expenses
paid by the company during the half-year amounted
to £35,000.

Mr. ADAMS, a candidate for a seat at the Board,
said he thought the present directors had had a very
fair trial, and that the result of their operations had
disappointed every one in the room. The increased
traffic for the past half-year had cost 50 per cent. to
work it, while for the corresponding half-year it
had been worked for 25 per cent. of the increased
receipts. He was quite as confident as ever, if the
undertaking was properly managed, that in the
course of five or six years it would yield dividends of
8 per cent. on the ordinary stock.
Mr. GILES thought the chairman and directors
were fully entitled to their confidence. With re-
gard to the by-law, it was all very well at the time
it was passed, but he believed that in the altered
state of things it was impossible to carry it out with
advantage to the company. The scheme for con-
necting their line with South Wales by crossing
under the Severn by a tunnel was far superior to

that of another company for carrying a line over the
Severn by means of a high-level bridge, at three

mes the cost of the tunnel line.

The CHAthmANreplied to thevarious observations,
apparently t) the entire satisfaction of the meeting.
He stated that they were on the most friendly and
and amicable terms with the London and North
Western Company. The directors had under con-
sideration the organisation of a better service be-
tween South Wales and Waterford, for the develop-
ment of the southern portion of the Irish traffic.
The course adopted by the Midland Company in
respect of the East Glocestershire scheme was un-

astifiable, under the authorised agreement with the

Great Western. The Vale of Neath Company were
not to have less than £85,000 a year, 5.0625 per
cent. of the joint traffic. The amount of their
capital had, therefore, nothing to do with the arrange-
ment, which it was believed would prove a very bene-
ficial one for them and the traders in the district.
Resolutions were then unanimously passed adopt-
ing the report and statement of accounts, declaring
a dividend at the rate of 3+ per cent. per annum on
the Great Western consolidated stock, at the rate of
2 per cent. per annum on the West Midland (Oxford)
stock, at the rate of 14 per cent. per annum on the
West Midland (Newport) stock, at the rate of 5 per
cent. per annum on the West Midland (Hereford)
stock; and at the rate of 3+ percent. per annum on the
South Wales consolidated stock, leaving a balance of
£6,087 ; re-electing the retiring directors—viz., Mr.
Bodenham, Mr. Brown, Mr. Dillwyn, Mr. Hamilton,
Mr. Michell, Mr. Ogilvy, and Mr. Walpole ; em-
powering the directors to raise £l, 000,000 by the issue
of shares or stock in such manner and on such condi-
tions as they might think fit ; approving the bill now
before Parliament for granting further powers to the
company, and authorising the directors to proceed
with it ; and approving and confirming the agree-
ments with the Vale of Neath Railway Company,
the Metropolitan Railway Company, the Hammer-
smith and City Railway Company, and the London
and North-Western Railway Company for the joint
ownership of the Shrewsbury and Welsbpool Rail-
way.