The Sun.
London, England, 1862-12-25 00:00:00

THE LICENSING SYSTEM.

DEPUTATION TO SIR GEORGE GREY.

On Tuesday a deputation waited upon Sir G. Grey,at the
Home-office, for the purpose of presenting a memorial on
the licensing question. The deputation consisted of Mr. E.
Backhouse, Sunderland; Mr. B. Whitworth, Manchester;
the Rev. J. Burns, D.D., London ; Mr. Councillor Thomp-
son, Manches'er ; the Rev. D. Burns, London; and Messrs.
J. H. Raper, Manchester; J. H. Cotterell, Bath; and Chas.
Jupe, of Mere, Wiltshire.
Mr. BACKR orsE read and presented a memorial, of which
the following is the substance :
Intemperance, crime, and pauperism are affected by the
increase or diminution of facilities for the consumption of in-
toxicating liquors, and the demoralisation and impoverish-
ment of the community bear a proportion to the number of
public-houses, spirit-vaults, and beershops. The memo-
rialists regard with interest and hope the prospect of Govern-
ment introducing a comprehensive measure on the subject
next session. They are convinced that all past legislation
abundantly proves the impossibility of limiting or regula-
ting a system so essentially mischievous in its tendencies.
While they approve of any reduction of the numbers of
houses, or limitation of the hours of sale, they submit that
the licensing system, involving, as it does, the right of the
people to protect themselves from the consequences of the
sale of intoxicating liquors, the forthcoming measure should
include clauses enabling the inhabitants of any district to
determine whether the licensing powers should be inopera-
tive in their locality. A veto vested in the people would be
a just complement to such a measure ; and as it should be
supported by an unmistakable public opinion, immunity
from the traffic should be secured only when two-thirds of
those voting decide in its favour. Many noblemen and
landowners have already prohibited the sale of strong drinks
on their estates with gratifying results. But, seeing that
all classes suffer from the traffic, the power to veto should
not be confined to wealthy landowners. They, therefore,
pray that the forthcoming measure may provide, " that
any parish or township where the majority of two-thirds
so determine, may be exempted from the operation of the
provisions for licensing the sale of intoxicating liquors."
The memorial was signed by the chairman and officers of
the United Kingdom Alliance.
Sir G. GREY—I do not quite understand how you mean
Sm. 0011131T111 to onerate. Who are the persons who are to
vote on this subject ? how are they to vote r and on what
occasions ? Take a township or parish ; suppose an applica-
tion is made by a person to the magistrates to open a public-
house within it, in what way is the scheme to work ? Is
there to bo convened a meeting of the whole parish ? What
is your view of the modus °poi' andi, putting aside for a
moment the policy of the proposal ?
Mr. RAPER—Does your question apply to single licences P
Sir G. GREY—I will put it in any way you like. I want
some explanation of the scheme. As it stands, no licence
is to be granted without the approval of two-thirds—it does
not say whether of the whole inhabitants ; 1 want to know
how you propose to bring that practically into operation.
Mr. RAPER said that the memorial bore upon the mea-
sure which it was expected was being prepared to consoli-
date all the laws relating to the sale of intoxicating liquors,
and it did not refer to the Permissive Bill of the United
Kingdom Alliance. The memorial prayed that some fran-
chise, to be defined hereafter—say the owners and occupiers
—should have the power to render the provisions of the
expected measure inoperative in any particular district ; and
the operation of such a clause would be tantamount to the
operation of the Permissive Bill.
Sir G. GREY --Do you mean that, once for all, the owners
as well as occupiers in any parish are to be convened, and
by a resolution carried by a majority at such a meeting they
are to deprive that parish of the possibility of having any
licence granted for the sale of intoxicating liquors for ever ?
Mr. RAPER—It is the desire of the United Kingdom
Alliance that we should have the power of putting a veto of
that description upon the entire sale, precisely as a land-
owner is now able to do on his own estate.
Sir G. GREY—Do you mean that the meeting is to de-
prive the parish of the possibility of having a licensed house
within it for an indefinite time ?
The Rev. Dr. BURNS said that the veto would extend to
the periods over which it was proposed that the new bill
should operate.
Sir G. GREY—That veto would be permanent?
The Rev. Dr. BURNS—No; it would probably be annual:
a meeting would be convened annually, either to continue
the veto or to remove it.
Sir G. GREY—I stated last year, when the debate took
place upon Mr. Lawson's motion, the objections to this pro-
posal. It is not like compelling a minority to contribute to
the maintenance of baths and washhouses, or any institu-
tion which the majority think to be useful. Here it is pro-
posed that, by a bare majority of the owners and occupiers
of any parish or district, the minority, which may consist
of many thousands, are to be debarred altogether from ob-
taining what are called intoxicating liquors, which, if used
to excess, no doubt are intoxicating, and are too often
fruitful in crime, but which, if used temperately, are not
open to that objection. You are proposing to interfere with
the free agency of largo numbers of your fellow-citizens and
fellow-subjects, and to deprive them of the useof what can-
not be said to be evil, although the abuse of it leads to evil.
I am afraid that, even if the scheme were sanctioned by
Parliament, the effect would be to drive people to obtain
liquors in a way which would be more objectionable than
the present one, because free from all restraint.
Mr. RAPER—You are thinking of the consumers ; but no
act of Parliament provides that houses shall be established.
A return to Parliament, obtained on the motion of Mr.
Dunlop, shows that there are in Scotland tO4 parishes
without a licensed house in them, and 144 entirely with-
out public drinking houses.
Sir G. GREY—The non-existence of a public-house in
any township or small parish is no proof that the people
living in it have no legitimate access to a public-house to
obtain beer.
Mr. RAPER—There is no law providing that such houses
shall be opened ; and if a number of landowners in con-
tiguous parishes agree to have no such houses on their
estates, the result is the same as it would be under a veto
by the inhabitants.
Sir G. GREY—Clearly; but there is no provision in the
law that there shall be a grocer's, a baker's, or a butcher's
shop, although tenants are sometimes prevented opening
them by clauses in leases, the object of which is to keep a
district clear of shops; and still there is no place where
there are not such shops within reach of the inhabitants.
Mr. RAPER—Precisely; because the law does not for-
bid them.
Sir G. GREY—They are precisely on the same footing as
public-houses, which, however, are liable to greater restric •
tions, because nobody can open one without complying with
certain conditions. These may be insufficient or inadequate,
but that is not the qusstion. The only question is whether
you shall establish a principle which does not exist—that a
majority of the inhabitants are to have the power of abso-
lutely precluding the minority from the possibility of ob-
taining the most convenient access to an article of trade.
Mr. RAPER remarked that a veto upon the sale of intoxi-
cants already existed ; but, instead of commencing with
the people it rested with the quarter sessions ; and at the
Preston quarter sessions three magistrates had overruled
the decision of 14 magistrates at Blackburn, and had
granted licences which had been refused in petty sessions.
Sir G. GREY—The magistrates at Blackburn thought
that there were plenty of public-houses, and they objected
to increase their number for that year only—but they did
not say that there should be none. Did they go the length
of refusing to renew existing licences ?
Mr. RAPER—No; but at Runcorn, the magistrates,
adopting the theory that, as are the facilities for obtaining
drink, so are the results, reduced the number of existing
licences by five or six, and at the quarter sessions at Kirk-
dale the decision of the local magistrates was reversed.
Sir G. GREY—Do you propose that this veto, supposing
it to be carried by a majority, should apply to the renewal
of licences as well as to the granting of new ones ?
Mr. RAPER—That is our desire.
The Rev. Dr. BURNS—Whilst rejoicing in any measure
that will reduce the number, our object is to do more by the
will of the people, and not by a mere majority.
Mr. RAPER explained that the definition of the consti-
tuency in whom the veto should be vested was a point of
detail. They did not care how extensive the suffrage was.
The lower it went the better, for even the victims of intem-
perance were with them. Last session there were 272,399
petitioners for the power asked in the memorial.

Sir G. GREY—I entirely sympathise with you in the de-
sire that drinking should be checked, although differing
from you as to tho means proposed to accomplish that ob-
ject. We must look to practical means.

Mr. JUPE, a large employer of labour in the west of Eng-
land, said that matters had reached such a state that the
Government must really come to the aid of the well-dis-
posed part of the community. The beerhouse system was
raising up a class of men with whom in boyhood they were
not-familiar, and recent crimes indicated the deepening de-
moralisation of the people.

Sir G. GREY—.We do not differ as to drinking being the
cause of crime, but we differ as to the best mode of checking
the evil.

Mr. JUPE—Can we be 'protected ? Every beerhouse is
demoralising a dozen or twenty families.
Sir G. GREY—Are you sure that the parish of Frome,
which you have mentioned, would by a vote of the majority
of the ratepayers or owners give you the protection you
think you could get in a veto ?

Mr, Jura—There is a strong and growingfeeling amongst
the well-disposed that something must be done.
Sir G. GREY—Do you trace crimes to particular houses
which are disorderly, and which might be proceeded against
under the existing law ?

Mr. Jur E—Whena complaint is made there is a difficulty
in obtaining a conviction. There seems to be a shield thrown
around the trade. As a Sunday school teacher for 30 years,
I see too plainly that the work I do is counteracted by temp-
tations; and I am confident that, sooner or later, the public
must speak out on this question.
Sir G. GREY—.I am not defending the present system.
The question is whether your view of total prohibition is a
practical view, and whether other means may not be taken
to correct evils for the absolute-extinction of which I do not
think we can look.
Mr. JUPE mentioned the formation of a total abstinence
society amongst the clergy, and the establishment by them
of a monthly periodical.
Sir G, GREY—The clergy and others who arc ondeavour-