The Sun.
London, England, 1865-03-14 00:00:00

CAPTAIN BEALE.

He condemned the principle of the Government, and he could
not-see why they could object to do as much for Canada as
they did for Sardinia during the Crimean war. 'Pi ere were
many things he desired information upon, an 1 ( re of the
questions he begged to put to the Government was whether
they intended to put a naval force on L ire Or tario. With
regard to the reciprocity treaty that might hr.ve been ter-
minated in a moment of irritation, in consequence of the
Confederate raids from Canada; but there again the course

which the English Government should have taken was to
have said, "Do not precipitately and entirely put an end to
that treaty ; but assist us in modifying and amending it."
In that case he believed the treaty would not have been

terminated, and those numerous questions regarding fish-
eries and other subjects which had over and over again
brought the two countries on the brink of war would not
again be reopened. He acquitted the United States Go-

vernment and the educated portion of their people of
any feeling of hostility towards this country. On the
contrary, so far as the Government were concerned, within
the last few months the feeling had greatly improved.
He was happy to acknowledge this ; and it was
owing to the wise, discreet, and prudent conduct that
had always marked the American representative in this
country, who had done more than any man to maintain the
peace between the two countries, and had conferred equal
obligations upon his own countrymen and on ours. At the

same time it would be worse than folly to shut our eyes to
what might possibly happen, and that under certain cir-

cumstanees hostilities might occur, The Americans were a
proud, high-spirited, and boastful race ; and when intoxi-

cated with success in their contest with the Southern Con-

federacy what wouldbe our position? They would say that

they had cause of complaint and just irritation against this

country, for they had had their commerce swept from the
seas. They had been told by their Government that

the vital strength of the rebellion had been encouraged

by the English Government setting the example of
acknowledging the belligerent rights of the South. Papers
would be produced by their Government, telling them
that in Canada they had an easy prey at their feet, and
was it- not likely that they would stretch out their hands
and seize the prize ? That being so, the question we had

to look to was set before us in the report of Col. Jervois
on the defences of Canada, where the alternative was stated
to be whether the British forces should be withdrawn to
save them from defeat, or so increased as to constitute an

effective defence for the province. As to the former alter-
native, ho did not think there were five members in the
house who were prepared to adopt a course so disastrous
and disgraceful, Then the question was whether the ne-
cessary measures should be taken to enable the British

forces in Canada to be of use for her defence. His belief

was that if that country were independent to-morrow she

would not run the slightest danger from the United States,
owing to various impediments, financial, industrial,
and political, and that the United States would

be content to see her independent and growing up as
a prosperous country side by side with themselves. But
that was not now the position of Canada. She was united
with England and wished to remain so. And we were
bound to exert ourselves to the utmost of our power to
prevent her being brought into danger in consequence of
her connection with us. What then he wished to know

were our preparations for her defence ? What steps were
the Government taking to carry out the recommendations

of Col. Jervois, by strengthening Quebec and Montreal,
fortifying Kingstown, constructing earthworks, ant-I.pro-

viding an efficient force of gunboats on the lakes and the

St. Lawrence ? Whilst the United States were actively

engaged in making preparations for the worst, he feared
that the Government of this country were taking the chance

of the chapter of accidents, and that if we avoided a quarrel
with the American people it would not be from the feeling
on their part that we had put ourselves in a state of defence,
but the lucky accident of their own forbearance, or there
not arising at the particular moment any excuse for justi-
fying a war.
Mr. W. E. FORSTER hoped the reply of tho Govern-
ment would be full and frank, and that they would let the
house and the country know whether there were really
any urgent need to enter upon the defence of Canada
against a possible invasion by America, or any reason to
fear that peace between the contending sections of the
United States meant war with this country, Canada and
the ocean being the battle-fields. A fear, or rather suspi-
cion, of that sort he admitted to exist, but he believed it
was utterly groundless, though the very expression of such
a feeling tended to create the feeling we dreaded. The
hon. member further inquired whether any despatch had
been received changing the grounds on which the question
of the Alabama stood as between the two Governments.

Mr. CARDWEL L was able without reserve to give an
assurance that the relations between this country and the
United States were perfectly friendly, and with equal con-
fidence and pleasure that there were no papers in existence
unknown to the house varying the principle on which
the question of the Alabama stood. With regard to the
convention limiting the number of vessels to be maintained
on the lakes by each power in time of peace, the Foreign
Secretary had communicated to the United States Minister
his desire to substitute another agreement for the old one ;
and as soon as the notice to terminate the Reciprocity
Treaty had been given no time would be lost by Govern-
ment in endeavouring to open negociations on a subject of
such vital importance. As to the defences of Canada for
the last three years the Imperial Government had been
pressing upon her the necessity of making preparations
in her own behalf ; and the reason they had not
acted sooner was that, so long as Canada made no
exertion and shot. ,d no readiness to come forward,
it would have been wrong in her Majesty's Government to
asl: the house for Imperial money to defend her. The mo-
ment, however, that she manifested the proper spirit, that
moment it became their duty to invite the house to enable
them to give her assistance. Quebec and Montreal being
cardinal points in any system of defence, the English Go-
vernment had engaged to undertake the works of the for-
mer and the province those of the latter, but the armour of
both places would be provided for by the Imperial Exche-
quer. Earthworks would bo raised in the course of the
first year, and the sum of £50,000, as part of the sum of
£200,000, was as much as could be properly expended dur-
ing the working period of the year. The first step towards
the defence of the lakes was to have a port fcr coaling and
repairing, and that was a question for the colonial, not the
Imperial Government. What was contemplated in any
future contingency he declined to state ; but if the time
ever came that Canada was at war, war with Canada would
be war with England. The imperial defence would be
brought to her aid, and wherever that defence would be
most effective in destroying the power of the enemy there
it would be exerted. The defence of Canada must consist
of British forces as a nucleus, but supplemented by the
military power of Canada herself ; and he had
the satisfaction of stating that efforts were now
being made in a cordial spirit ; that large bodies
of officers had been already trained to take command
of the militia in an bmorgency ; that the number
of military schools had been increased, and that prepara-
tions were making for bringing a largo portion of the
militia to a condition for active service. Ho thought, there-
fore, that a fair and just preparation was being made for
the defence of the colony.
. Mr. DISRAELI—Sir, I do not think that her Majesty's
Government, after placing the report of Colonel Jervoi:s
upon the table, could have expected that the subject of the
defences of Canada would have been altogether unnoticed
by the House of Coml.:nous. (Hear, hear.) And, sir, I
think it could not:bave been brought forward to-night in a
manner more distinguished by its moderation, clearness,
and accuracy than it has been by my hon. friend. I am sorry
that the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Forster) should have
considered that that statement and that expression of opi-
nion on his part favourably contrasted with another expres-
sion of opinion which he referred to as having been made in
another. place. I am myself totally at a loss—speaking of
course from the memory of the moment—to recal to recol-
lection any expression of opinion in another place by the
individual to whom he referred, which at all justified the
criticisms of the hon. gentleman. On that occasion, if I re-
member aright, recalling to the recollection of those whom
he addrefsed the great irritation that occurred at the time
of
vywiehdatnahirscehiatynoff:alutpinrransooaswlfl y
the Trent, now four years ago, that indi-
confessargued, away withoutareC6W
necessary
cl aenisysaakhriyanvg ?"
tyahnoeud,se
sapil 11r.,oewipt
aerdeo
appearsun
er
to be an argument very difficult to meet. (Hear, hear.)
With regard to the opinion of that eminent statesman upon
the general subject of American affairs—living as I do with
him in the most perfect confidence, and having expressed
in this house sentiments in reference to it—iea
can only
that in those sentiments he fully and completely
shared.sayl
am not myself conscious at this moment of ranking among
those mortified and baffled prophets--(a laugh)—to whom
the hon. gentleman (Mr. Forster) referred, and I can only
say that I have expressed no opinion upon American affairs
in this house which has not been entirely shared and con-
curred in by Lord Derby, nor do I think that throughout
those four y it is possible to adduce any expression that
haseverf a i
leeffrom the lips of that eminent man which
could in any way justify the allusions and references of the
hon. gentleman. Sir, I am not here to-night to impugn,
and I have never impugned, the conduct of the Govern-
ment of the United States throughout this struggle. I am
prepared to say now, with increased experience of their be-
haviour, that it appears to me—as I indeed stated two
years ago—that under circumstances of almost unprece-
dented difficulty, that Government has conducted itself
awfmthl dairsecrientiaonny.
immediate
eNor,
danger,sir
glajaaltl onfunorrinioanndthgLeaavte
in case the war between the Northern and Southern States
terminates, of being placed in collision with the Govern-
ment of the United States, from our connection with
Canada. I do not pretend now to express any opinion upon
what may be the termination of the present contest. That
appears to me to be perfectly unnecessary to the discussion
of the subject which is under our consideration to-night.
But even assuming the result to be such as the hon. gentle-
man the member for Bradford supposes, I do not myself
conclude that the citizens of the United States—of the North
--if entirely andcompletely victorious, will feel inclined im-
mediatelyfe to enter into another struggle with a power not
inferior in
Northdet America.errnintttion (aHndearr,ehsoeuarr.c)essitro,
IthhaevSe outheni
States rior
of formed
that opinion because it appears to me that the people of the
United States are eminently a sagacious people. I don't
think that they are insensible to the glory of great dominion

Mr. PEACOCKE asked the Under Seretary of State for
Foreign Affairs whether he would lay upon the table of
the house all the papers relating to the extradition from the
Canadian territory of Captain Beale, an officer in the ser-
vice of the Confederate States ?
Mr. LAYARD said he was not aware that Captain Beale
had been surrendered by the Canadian Government.
There were no papers in the possession of the Govern-
ment with respect to the matter.
" OWL'S LIGHT."

Mr. ROEBUCK drew the attention of the house to an
alleged letter which appeared in the Times, headed
" Owl's Light," from General Hutt, C. 8., in which
it was stated that there was no truth in the report
that ho was to be appointed chief secretary of
Chelsea hospital, as such an appointment would be
contrary to the Queen's warrant ; and, being an Indian
officer, hewasineligible for the post ;:and desiring a contra-
tradiction of that which involved a reflection on his
brother's integrity ; and also to the actual appointment of
General Hutt to the office.

Mr. HUTT said that the letter in question was a fraud,
and the signature a forgery, and had emanated from some
persons whom he would call scoundrel; who pursued dis-
honest purposes by disloyal means. He had the original
letter to the Times in his possession, and he expected ;to
be able to trace its author. General Hutt was not incapable
by the Queen's warrant, or by the fact of his being an officer
of the Indian army, from holding the place in question, as
he possessed all the necessary experience, and was an officer
distinguished for his services, and had been named in the
Gazette by Sir 0. Napier and by the Duke of Wellington,
recommending him for the honour of the order of the Bath
for his services at Meanee and Hyderabad.
THE DEFENCES OF CANADA.

On the motion for going into committee of supply on the
army estimates,
Mr. S. FITZGERALD rose to call the attention of the
house to the report of Colonel Jervois with reference to
the defence of Canada, and also for the purpose of
asking for certain information on the subject. The
hon. gentleman, in his opening observations, said the
matter was one of the greatest importance, and while ex-
pressing an opinion that there was no distinct intention on
the part of the United States to enter upon hostilities with this
Country, yet he contended that circumstances might readily
ase,in Canada especially, which might bring about dif-
ferencesn of a -very alarming description. After alluding to
the present position of affairs in the United States and
Canada, the hon. gentleman proceeded to refer to the
steps that were now proposed to be taken. What,
he asked, did the
Governmenttold t intend to do ? and he
supposed he should be
out the recommendations that htatvheebtennmtioandewbays to carry
Jervois after his inspection.
se
reminded the house that
there had been a commission sent out to Canada in
1862, with Colonel Gordon
its head ; and the
conclusion the commissioners at
arrived
similar to that of Colonel Jervois, yet
the outlay
was very
down at such an enormous figure t was set
that
commission was sent out in 1863, and a another
:a other in
1864. Yet, after all the inquiry,
what
now
proposed to be done by the Heine Governs
Why, they only intended to undertake the fortification p
of Quebec, and that they intended to set about by the ex-
penditure of £50,000. He should have thought that if the
Government were convinced of the necessity of erecting
these fortifications they would set about them in a more
energetic manner than merely spending £50,000 for two or
three years. He should have thought that the proper
course to pursue would be to throw all their energies into
the matter, and instead of doing the thing by driblets to
effect all that was required in the speediest manner possible.

and extended empire. I give them full 'credit for being in-
fluenced by the passions which actuate mankind generally,
and nations that enjoy a state of great freedom particularly;
but being a sagacious people, I do not think that they would

seize the moment of exhaustion as the one most favourable

to the prosecution of an enterprise requiring great resources
and immense exertions. (Hear, hear.) Sir, there are other
reasons, too, which induce me to adopt that opinion. I have
not been influenced in forming a judgment on such grave
matters by that sort of rowdy rhetoric which is expressed

in public meetings and public journals, and from which, I

fear, in this country is formed too rapidly our opinion of
the character and possible conduct of the American people,
_ _ _

I look upon this expression of opinion as something like
those strong and fantastic drinks which we hear of, and

which are such favourites on the other side of the Atlantic•

I would as soon suppose that this kind of rowdy rhetoric to
which I refer is a symbol of the real character of the Ame-

rican people as that those potations are symbols of the ali-
ment and nutrition of their bodies. Sir, there is also another
reason which very much influences my opinion that these
violent courses which are apprehended might occur, and
the hon. member (Mr. Forster) has already alluded to the
cause upon which it is founded. The democracy of America
must not be confounded with the democracies of old Europe.
It is not the scum of turbulent cities ; nor is it even a mere
section of the excited middle classes, who speculate in
shares, and consider that progress. (Laughter.) It is a
territorial democracy, if I may use that epithet without
offending honourable gentlemen opposite. (Renewed
laughter.) Aristotle, who has taught us most of the
wise things we know, never said a wiser thing than

that the cultivators of the soil are the class least inclined

to sedition and to violent courses. Now, being a territorial
democracy, their character has been formed and influenced
by the sort of property with which they are connected and
the nature of the pursuits they follow. There is a sense
of the responsibility arising from the reality of their posi-
tion that very much influences their political conduct. At
the present moment I believe they are much more inclined

to welcome the return of labourers to their fields, and, being
a very domestic people, again to see assembled round their
hearths to which they have long been accustomed the
household in whose lot they are so much interested, than
to indulge in schemes, and plans,: and dreams of invading

the dependency of her Majesty. (Hear, hear.) _ But, sir,

although these are my opinions generally upon this imme-
diate point, still I cannot conceal from myself the fact, that
/very great changes have taken place in America ; and I am

inclined to believe that in this house, they are not rated at
their sufficient importance. What has happe.ned in America

—whatever may be the consequence of the present struggle
—does not appear to me to be less than a revolution. I
would ask hon. gentlemen to recal to their recollection what

truly English'view of the subject—not to enforce our con-
nection upon any dependency ; but if, at a moment like the
present—a moment, as I maintain, of revolution in North
America—we find the English colonies asserting the prin-

ciple of their nationality, and foreseeing, perhaps, a glo-
rious future, still depending, until the moment of their en-
tire emancipation arrives, upon the faithful and affectionate

assistance of the mother country, it would be the most

short-sighted as it would be the most spiritless, conduct
in the eyes of the world to shrink from the duty which
Providence had assigned to us to fulfil. (Cheers.) Well,
sir, under these circumstances, what is the course we ought
to adopt ? 1 cannot doubt that thQ coursq we ought to
pursue is to plate our North American provinces in a state
of defence. (Hear.) When we are told that it is impossible
to defend a frontier of 1,500 miles, I ask who has ever re-

quested you to defend such a frontier ? What we recom-
mend and require—and I am not speaking for this side of
the house particularly, but for those who take the view
that lam feebly expressing—is that her Majesty's troops

in Canada should not be placed, for example, in a position
in which the utmost bravery and skill would be of no avail

but that they should defend the country according to the
military conditions upon which all great countries are de-
fended. You do not defend hundreds of miles of frontier.

Austria has an immense frontier, but Austria does not de-
fend it all. She takes care that when sho is invaded

there shall be points round which her troops can rally for

her defence ; that is all that we wish to see. We wish to
see Canada placed in such a condition that if she is de-
fended by her own countrymen, assisted by her Majesty's
troops, that they should at least have fair play which
troops have a right to count upon, and the ad-
vantage of those fortifications which, defended with
sufficient skill, double the strength of armies, and lead to
the success of campaigns. (Hear, hear.) That is what is

required, and what I trust her Majesty's Government have

resolved to give. I confess myself that these four years
needed not to be lost. Ido not think that, rom the first
affairs in America have been considered of that importance

to which they have now attained, and which, indeed, I
myself felt that they must attain. My complaint against the
Government is that they did not consider from the very

first the affairs of America of the great importance which

they have now attained, or which it was felt they must at-
tain. I formed that opinion—l do not wish to avail myself
of any taunts—but I formed that opinion from expressions
which fell from the Government during the last four years.

Those opinions of the Government, from the nature of the
struggle in America, and the probable consequences, and
the general result which might be brought about, have
been most inconsistent. One day we have been told by an
eminent member of the Government that the South might
be considered to have completed her independence ; and

was the state of North America when we met in this house

very shortly after that another great authority—lost now
to this house, and whose loss no one more regrets than I
do, Sir George CornewallLewis—said he did not recognise
that any single element of independence had been accom-
plished by the South. These two opinions perplexed the
country ; one day they were ready to believe from the Go-
vernment that there was on their part the utmost sympathy
with those who were struggling in the Southern States,
while on the other hand the Minister of the Government

only four years ago. Why, North America was then divided
among what I may call three great powers. There were
the United States of America, the colonies, settlements, and
dependencies of our own sovereign, and there was a country
which certainly did not possess great political power, but
which, in extent of resources, fertility of soil and mineral
treasures, is perhaps not equalled in the world—Mexico
Now, North America was divided under these three heads,
and in reference to every one of them you will find that
_ _ .

who had to pass a judgment upon these matters, and whose
position: give peculiar weight to his opinions, expressed
conclusions of a totally different character. I do not blame
the Government, in a position of extreme difficulty, for
forming opinions in a period of revolution ; but what I do
regret is these discordant opinions on their part, and that all
this time the colonies of this country have not been prepared
for defence as they should have been. After the loss of four
years we are now about to commence an effort upon a small
scale and with very limited results. But these are after all
little matters, provided that they are formed upon a sound
principle. If the Parliament of England has determined to
maintain the colonies of her Majesty, founded upon the un-
equivocal expression on their part that to that connection
they cling with feelings and sentiments of a character which
shows that the national sentiment is wholly unimpaired—if
they proye that those reports and rumours which have been
circulated of late years in regard to the feelings of the
colonists are unfounded, that they are proud of their con-
nection with the mother country, and that they are resolved
to maintain it until they rival us in our great career and
have become our allies and our friends—then I shall not
regret anything which has been done. It appears to me
that there are two consequences which have resulted from
public opinion being of late agitated upon these topics—
the one, that we are conscious now of what our duty is to
the colonies, and that we are prepared to fulfil that duty
in a manner which will produce confidence and strengthen
and maintain the British empire. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LOWE said he should confine himself to the simple
question, what this country ought to do and was bound to
do. Suppose we were actually at war with the United
States, Col. Jervois stated that our troops would be obliged
to flee to their ships, and therefore we should make fortifica-
tions. But if we had fortifications the troops would be driven
into them. There was no conceivable disparity of numbers
which the Americans might not bring to overwhelm them.
No fortifications could be held against this force aided by
modern artillery, so that if our troops were driven into the
fortifications it would be impossible for them to escape.
The question was, what should be done if Canada was the
battle-ground in case of war. The most effectual course in
such an event would be to concentrate a force upon some
other point. His conclusion, therefore, was that it would
be unwise to retain any force worth speaking of in Canada.
Then, if we should not keep troops there in time of war,
why in time of peace ? We had better let Canada know
the truth, and not buoy her up with false expectations,
while we provoked America by a standing menace. The
wisest course would be at once to withdraw our troops.
After observations by Sir J. FEILGUSSON and Mr. J.
WHITE,
Mr. C. FORTESCUE said the British North American
Colonies being desirous to remain attached to England, and
being able and willing to exert themselves in their own
defence, her Majesty's Government deemed it their duty to
make propositions to the house to enable them to perform
their part in assisting in the defence. He combated the
arguments and conclusions of Mr. Lowe.
Sir F. SMITH thought the house ought to have a full
statement of what the whole cost of the fortifications and
their armaments would be, and of the number of British
troops that would be abstracted from the general force and
retained in Canada.
Mr. WATKIN observed that the way to prevent a war
with America was not to talk of abandoning Canada, but
to declare that it was a part of the British empire, and that
we were prepared to defend it.
Sir M. FARQUHAR dwelt upon the importance of the
North American Colonies to England, and the large amount
of capital there in which British subjects were more or less
interested.
Lord ELCHO said, having listened to the debate, the
impression upon his mind was that the speech which con-
tained most practical sense and hit the right nail on the
head was that of Mr. Lowe, that the course he suggested
was a practical and sensible one.
Mr. AYRTON considered the course taken by the Go-
vernment most extraordinary and unsatisfactory. He
complained of the entire want of information upon a variety
of essential points, which ought to be brought clearly
before the house, and without which it would be premature
to form any judgment. The best way to protect Canada
he remarked, was to preserve proper relations with the
United States, instead of which causes of irritation had
arisen.

there have been immense changes. In the United States
of North America civil war has raged and is still raging,
and even if it terminate (I myself give no opinion as to
its termination) as the hon. member for Bradford sup-
poses, I Cannot myself believe that you will see the same
society and form of government established—certainly
not in spirit, though it may be in mere form—as
existed before the civil war was commenced. Because
we must remember this, that even if the Federal Govern-
ment is triumphant it will now have to deal with a
perplexing and discontented population. I will not dwell
much upon the population that will then represent the
Southern communities, but look to the slave population no
longer slaves. You would have several millions of another
race emancipated; legally in the full enjoyment of the
rights of freemen, so far as the letter of the law is con-
cerned, placed upon an equality with the Saxon race, with
whom they can possibly have no sympathy. But Whatever
may be the letter of the law, we know from experience
that in practice there will be a difference, and a marked
difference, between those recently emancipated and—l will
not call it the superior race, because I may offend some
gentlemen opposite—(laughter)--I will not say the inferior
race—but I say the race which certainly is not identical.
Well, nothing tends more to the discontent of a people than
that they should be in possession of privileges and rights
which really and practically they find are not recognised,
and which they do not enjoy. These are elements of poli-
tical discontent, and, therefore, if the United States be
triumphant they will have to deal with what they had not
before, great masses of discontented population. Then you
must have a strong Government, and what does a strong
Government mean? It means a central Government, and
the United States of late in all their troubles and emergen-
cies have had recourse to the centralising principle. The
central Government then will have an army at command
for the purpose of maintaining that order and unity which
it is their duty to uphold. Well, sir, I therefore think that
there are elements which will produce a very great differ-
ence in the condition of .the United States, even if they
come triumphantly out of this struggle. Now, what is
the condition of the colonies, settlements, and dependen-
cies of her Majesty ? BAore this struggle, four years ago
there was very little common sympathy amongst them'
The tie to this country was one almost of formality; and
yet what has been the consequence of this great change
in North America ? Why, you have already developed
a powerful federation with the element of nationality
strongly evinced in it. They have counted their popu-
lation ; they feel that they are numbered by millions ;
they are conscious that they have amongst the posses-
sions of the Queen in North America a district of ter-
ritory which in fertility and extent is equal to the unap-
propriated resources of the United States. These are gle-
monis of power and prognostics of new influences which
will very much change the character of that country. Nor
is there any reason to suppose that they are less influenced
by the ambition natural to free communities than the
United States themselves. Perhaps they may foresee that
they may become the Russia, I will say, for example, of the
new world. But what is the condition of Mexico ? Before
this civil war commenced Mexico was a republic with a
very weak government. She is no longer a republic, but
an empire, and she has become an empire by the interposi-
tion of two of the most powerful and ancient States of
Europe, France, and Germany. When we see all these
immense changes, it is impossible to deny that in North
America a great revolution is occurring, and whore these
struggles are over, and when peace may again appear,
when tranquillity in all these departments may be again
established, you will find communities governed by very
different influences and aiming at very different objects to
what they have hitherto recognised and avowed. (Hear,
hear.) Sir, I have often heard in this house statesmen,
even distinguished statesmen, mumbling over what they
call the balance of power in Europe. It appeared to me
always to be a great mistake when we look to the distribu-
tion of power to confine our consideration merely to Euro-
pean elements, that the time must come, and speedily
come, when we shall find that other influences from other
quarters of the globe will very much interfere with all
those calculations which aro now become obsolete. I think
that this war in America has rapidly precipitated the re-
cognition of a new definition of the balance of power, not as
a system of small and great States leaving all the strongest
positions in the hands of the weakest, but, on the contrary,
that the proper meaning of the balance of power is security
for communities in general against the predominance of
any particular power. I think when you have to consider
the balance of power in future you will have to take into
consideration States and influences which cannot be
counted among European Powers. It is impossible, not-
withstanding what hon. gentlemen may say with regard
to the character of the United States, to conceal from our-
selves that there is a feeling among those influential land-
owners to whom the hon. member for Bradford has referred
with reference to Europe which is of a peculiar nature. I
will not say that the United States, for example, look to old
Europe with feelings of jealousy or vindictiveness, because
epithets or words of that kind ought not unnecessarily to
be used with respect to the relations between nations ; but
it is certainly undeniable that the United States look to old
Europe with a want of sympathy. They have no sympathy
with countries which have been created and which are
sustained by tradition. The only part of old Europe that
they do sympathise with is that part which is new, and that
you will always observe in their course of conduct. If then
I am at all justified in these views, it is quite clear that we
must make up our minds to know what our relations really
shall be with her Majesty's dependencies on the other side of
the Atlantic. We are upon the eve—l don't mean that it
will be to-morrow, or next year, but taking those large views
that become the House of Commons we may be soon upon
the eve of events in which our relations with our American
dependencies must be clearly apprehended and acted upon
by this country. (Hear.) Is this country prepared to re-
nounce our American colonies and dependencies or to main-
tain them ? Sir, I am perfectly willing to admit that if
they express a wish to sever that connection—if those views
which have often been mentioned in this house, that they
prefer to be absorbed by the United States, as we heard
years ago, be well founded—then we might terminate that
connection with dignity and without disaster. But if, on
the other hand, those views which are now more generally
accepted are just, if there be on the part of the Canadas
and of the other North American colonies a sincere and
deep desire to form a considerable state, to develope their
greatestan eanntd alli
resources with the patronage and aid of Bngland until
that mature hour has arrived when we may loose, perhaps,
lousraydeiptewndowenacybteoognaeinofptehrme
politicale s
maintaining ad
blunders
friends,
t h e
the responsibility of upholding
inte-
rests at the present moment. I am sure, sir, that if from
any consideration of expense we were to quit the position
we now occupy in North America, it would ultimately be,
as regards the sources of our wealth, as fatal and disastrous
a step as a nation could take—that our abject prosperity
would not long be a consolation for us, and that we should
then indeed have to prepare perhaps for the invasion of
our country and the subjugation of our people. I infer,
from what has been stated, that hon. gentlemen below the
gangway do not themselves uphold those views which I
regret have been expressed in other places and in other
quarters. But they take what I hope is the sound and

Lord R. CECIL, after remarking that this debate would
operate against the interests of this country, observed that
the ambiguity about th 3 defence of Canada was more
dangerous to the honour of England than any other course
that could be adopted.
Mr. BRIGHT said he hoped the debate would bo use-
ful ; and althongh he was obliged to admit the importance of
the question before them, he thought it was likewise one of
some delicacy. Its importance was clear, because it referred
to the possibility of war between this country and the
United States ; and its delicacy arose from this, that it was
very difficult to discuss such a subject without saying
things which tended rather in the direction of war than of
peace. There was an extensive dependency of this coun-
try lying along the frontiers of the United States, and if
there was a war party in the United States—a party hostile
to this country—that circumstance afforded to it a strong
temptation to enter into a war with England, because
through Canada they could inflict a groat humiliation upon
England. At the same time, it was perfectly well known to
all intelligent men—especially to the statesmen of the
United States—it was well known to them as to:English-
' men, that it was not in the power of the United Kingdom
to defend Canada successfully against the power of the-
United States of America. (Hear, hear.) Now, the noble
lord and his Government were responsible for compelling
this discussion. If a vote was to be asked for it was clearly a
duty to bring the subject under discussion. But he thought
such a vote was particularly inopportune at that moment,
and for many reasons ; especially, however, because they
had heard from the Governor-General of Canada that the
Northern provinces of America were about to call into
existence a new nationality. Now, he should object to the
taxes of this country being needlessly expended upon any
nationality except our own. (Hear, hear.) What he should
ask the house first of all was, would Canada attack the
United States ? Clearly not. Well, then, would the United
States attack Canada ? Clearly not. There was probably
not a man in the United States whose advice or opinion
would have the smallest weight in America, who would re-
commend or desire that an attack should be made upon Ca-
nada with a view to its forcible annexation to the Union.
But the people of Canada have been no wiser politicians
than some members of that house, or than many of the
richer classes in this country, and when the refugees of the
South—he did not mean those respectable and honourable
men who left their country in these troubles, and for whom
he felt the greatest commiseration, but he referred to those
ruffians of the South who in large numbers had retreated
to Canada, and had employed themselves there in a course
of policy likely to embroil England with the United States
—he maintained the people of Canada had treated these
persons with much too great conciliation when they gave
utterance to opinions of open hostility to a country quite
close to them. He would not go into the details of the
recent raid across the American frontier, and of other
transactions with a similar tendency. Suffice it to say
that all those things took place, and yet the Canadian Go-
vernment made scarcely a sign. A year ago application was
made to the noble lord at the head of the Foreign-office to

stimulate the Canadian Government into taking certain

steps ; but, with that sort of negligence which had been so
much seen, nothing was done until the American Govern-
ment and people became aroused, and showed that they
would not put up with these things any longer. He had

heard that Lord Monck had conducted his Government in a

manner very serviceable to Canada, and with the greatest

possible propriety, as the representative of her Majesty.

Lord Monck had likewise been very favourable to the
United States, as had also been his Cabinet and the most
important newspaper in Canada ; still for a long time
nothing was done. Now, however, when this trouble arose,
everything was done—possibly the raiders would be sur-
rendered, and the Canadian Chancellor of the Exchequer
had proposed a vote to restore to the persons at St. Albans
the money that was taken 'from them. What was the

state of things now ? Why, a state of the greatest possible
calm. People had returned to their right mind, and there
was not a man in Canada who had any kind of

idea that the United States Government had the smallest

notion of attacking them. It was with the greatest do-
light, too, that ho noticed the changed tone in that
house with respect to the American question. He did
not believe that there was any one out of Bedlam, or at least
any one who ought to be out of it—(laughter)—who was in
favour of England going to war with the United States.

He would say that we were a wiser and a better people in
these respects. We ought to regard war with the United

States, if needlessly entered into, as even a greater crime

than war with almost any other country in the world.
(Hear.) Our Government had preserved neutrality during
this great struggle, although they had committed many

blunders. Bad men of various classes, agents of the Rich-
mond conspiracy, and persons who were said to be influen-
tial from France, were reported to have brought their in•

fluence to bear upon the noble lord at the head of the Go-
vernment and his colleagues with a view to induce them
to take some part in this quarrel. But our neutrality had
not been broken. It might therefore fairly be inferred that
this country was not in favour of war, and that if any dif-
ficulty arose from which Canada would suffer it would not

proceed from this country. Would it, then, come from the
United States ? The noble lord the member for Stamford
(Lord R. Cecil) had a lurking idea that it would come from
that quarter. (Hear, and laughter.) If they could have at
the bar of the House Earl Russell as representing her Ma-
jesty's Government, and Mr. Adams as representing the
Government of President Lincoln, and if their opinions
were asked, they would say that the relations between the
two countries were perfectly amicable, and that they had
been growing more and more amicable for many months
past. He (Mr. Bright) would take the liberty of expressing
an opinion that there had never been an Administration in
the. United States since the time of the revolutionary war
up to this hour more entirely favourable to peace with all
foreign countries, and more especially with England, than
the Government of which President Lincoln was the head.

The most exact investigator would not be able to point to
a single word which Mr. Lincoln had said, to a line he had
written, or an act ho had done, which betrayed anger
against this country, or any of that passion or feeling
which were thought by some persons in this country to
occupy the breast of the President and his Cabinet. If Ca-
nada and England and the United States were not for war,
whence was the war to come? He should like to ask whence
came the anxiety on this subject which undoubtedly to
some extent prevailed ? It might, indeed, even be as-
sumed that the Government were not altogether free from
it, as they had shown in a ludicrous manner by proposing
a vote of £50,000 for the defence of Quebec. (Laughter.)
Then it was said that the newspapers had
got into a slight panic. Well, they could do that any night
between 6 o'clock and 12. (Laughter.) It was also said
that the City was alarmed. Ho never knew the City to be
right. (Laughter.) Men who were deep in great mone-
tary transactions, and perhaps steeped to the lips in peril-
ous speculations, were not able to take a broad and dispas-
sionate view of political questions of this nature. (Hear,
hear.) Then as to the newspapers, he agreed with his hon.
friend the member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster) that
the course of one newspaper, in particular, was indicated by
a wish to cover its own confusion, and he should imagine
that, after an uninterrupted publication of lies with regard
to America for four years, it had done much to destroy its
influence on foreign questions for ever. (Cheers.) But
there was a higher authority than the newspapers—that of
the peers. He was glad the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Dis-
raeli) had endeavoured to excuse his chief, and he was also
glad to acknowledge that not one syllable had fallen from
the right hon. gentleman's lips which was likely to create
difficulty between this country and the United States ; and
the chief, as well as many of his followers, might learn
something from his example. (Cheers.) Now, how was it
that any man in this country had more anxiety at this mo-
ment with regard to the rn preservation of peace with the
United States than he had four years ago ? Was there not
a consciousness that we had not behaved generously to our
neighbour ? (Cries of no, no.) Did we not feel the prick-
ing of conscience ? (No, no, and hear, hear.) And did not
that conscience tend to make us cowards at this particular
juncture ? (No, no.) He would not review past transactions
with anger, but with a feeling of sorrow ; for he maintained
that no generous and high-minded Englishman could look
back upon the transactions of the last four years without a
feeling of sorrow at the course -which had been pursued on
some particular occasions; and as he was wishful to speak with
a view to a better state of feeling both in this country and the
United States, he would take the liberty to refer to two or
three of those transactions which he thought, though not in
the main greatly wrong. yet in some circumstances were so
far unfortunate as to create the irritation which people at
this moment regretted. The time and the manner in which
her Majesty's Government acknowledged the belligerent
rights of the South, could not fail to produce considerable
irritation in the North. Then, again, the conduct of the
Government in the affair of the Trent was unduly hasty
and precipitate, and the menace against the United States
was altogether needless and uncalled-for. With regard to
the Alabama he did not complain of the hon. member for
Birkenhead (Mr. Laird) for having contracted a friendship
with Capt. Semmes, of whom it might be said, " He was
the mildest mannered man that ever scuttled ship"—
(laughter)—but he complained that a county magistrate, a
deputy lieutenant—whatever that might be—(laughter)—
a representative of a constituency, and, as such, having a
seat in that honourable assembly, should have been con-
cerned in building and equipping this ship, and breaking
the law of his country. (Cries of "No, no.") As to the
press—(laughter)—as to the press, he thought it unneces-
sary to say much about that, because he believed those un-
fortunate writers were endeavouring fo back out, and he
could only hope their power for evil would in future be
lessened by the stupendous exhibitions of ignorance and
folly which they had made to the world. He would say
that the chance of war was not only uncertain but impro-
bable. As to the claims of the United States upon this
country, and the claims of this country upon the United
States, they would probably not exceed half a million ster-
ling, and he did not see why the two Governments could
not arrange such a matter, for it was not more difficult
than the question with Brazil, which was being settled by
negotiation, (Hear, hear.) He recollected at the begin-
ning of the war that a member, whose name he would not
I mention, alluded to it as the bin sting of the bubble repub-
lic, but that member was rebuked by Lord Russell, who
then sat in that house for the City, in a manner worthy of
his name and great reputation. He (Mr. Bright) believed
that a great many bubbles would burst before it. Why
should this country fear a great republic on the American
continent? Some people believed -a great republic was
aggressive ; but the character of a nation did not de-
pend upon its size, but upon the civilisation and morals
of its people. This country feared the supremacy of
the sea would pass away, and that "Rule, Britannia,"
would become an old song ; but if it meant anything inthe
way of arrogant menace, the sooner it became obsolete the
better. Ho did not think that any nation should vaunt
itself upon the supremacy of the sea, and he believed the
time was coming when a more just policy would guide the
Christian nations of the world. But, said the hon. member,
nature will not be baffled because we are jealous cf the
United States. The people of the United States are not
less than 35 millions of souls. When the next Parliament
shall be as old as the present, the population of the United
States will be 40 millions, and you may calculate that the
increase will be more than one million per year. You can
not, by any snarling, reduce their 40 millions to your 30
millions, nor increase your 30 millions to their 40 millions,
and the sooner you give up such a notion the better will it
be for the interests of the country. On the other hand, I
believe the American people will be willing to bury in
oblivion transactions that have given them much pain,
and probably they will make allowance that people in this
country, even though high in rank and distinguished for
culture, have a very inadequate knowledge of the trans-
actions which have taken place since the beginning of the
-war. It was on record, when the author of the " Decline
and Fall of the Roman Empire" was beginning to write
his work, that David Hume wrote to him not to employ the
French but the English language, because of the
establishment of America and the greater stability
of the English language. How much that pro-
phesy has been fulfilled we have seen in part ; but I be-
lieve that as centuries pass it will be the boast and pride of
England that from her loins have sprung 100 millions or
200 millions of people, who dwell and prosper in that con-
tinent which the old Genoese gave to Europe. (Cheers.)
If the sentiments I have uttered to-night are the senti-
ments of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, I trust
it may also influence the policy of the United States ; and,
notwithstanding some irritation at the present, I have
faith in ourselves and in them, and I believe that these
two nations will march on, the parents and guardians of
freedom and justice, wherever their langurge shall
be spoken and their power shall extend. (Cheers.)
Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, however long this discussion
has been, I for ono cannot regret that it has taken place
for I think two opinions have been expressedby the majority
of the members of this house which cannot fail to impress
all who have heard them. The first is that which has been
peculiarly dwelt upon by the hon. member who has just sat
down, namely, the earnest desire that the most friendly
relations should be maintained between Great Britain and
the United States. (Hear, hear.) And the other opinion
is that the connection between the provinces of North
America, so long as they are desirous of it, with the mother
country, shall be maintained. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
member has made what in one respect man appear to be a
paradox, but what I think, according to the principles of

terms "
When I stated these facts as connected with this convent
in the debate in 1853 the facts were denied by some Roman
Catholic members in the house, but the impression pro-
duced by the statement of them, taken together with the
other:facts at that time alleged, was such that these denials
could have but little weight with the house. for the majority
seemed to think, with the late Mr. Drummond, that the
power of denial on the part of the Roman Catholic members
of the house was on these subjects so wonderful that the
house decided to consider a measure for testing these denials
by the establishment of an inspection of eonyents."
The house would perceive that reference was there made
exclusively to the debate of 1853, and in vindication of the
statement he would quote one or two passages. The motion
before the House on that occasion was one by Mr. Chambers

......11•1...14 .------
...........••••....••••...Ir.
.r- 1 r leave to intro duce a .
human nature, may be conciliatory to the United States ; .0
of the ce %ass coi anected with this subject whoa
for though the hon. member went through a long course of and one bill for the inspection of convents,
of Mr.. Cra von Berkeley, then a member of
events showing that the United States had been illtreated attracted most. atte.ation a, t the time, was that of Miss Tal-
by this country, yet I cannot agree with him In any one of bog,
his points. (Hear, hear.) But it is a principle of human the haoureslea.tiv;he was a'
ey hay' -applied for permission to see his
nature that you cannot better please any man, or set of and Mr. Berke'..
refused. the- necessary permission unless
poi stulant of a convent at Bristol,
men, than by telling them that they have been exceedingly stepdaughter was .
lace. in the presence of the superioreas
Mused. (Laughter.) I will not follow the hon. gentleman the interview took r' .
) s to which took place on that m°'
in his discussion of the Trent affair, and the other caws In the course of the del, followi secede occurred. Mr
have been disposed of, nor will I discuss the posi- / tion of Mr. Chambers tht ep ng
tion of Canada and the United States, because the hon. t Craven Berkeley said—, .
n the veil was revented froonar
member admits himself that the conduct of the Canadian "Not only was it the fl,
Government has been acknowledged to have been that ofd landa ladyilef
iehavingndsuonriteesas t.n.
{ i.. presence of the sucieoroi.orana
friendly neighbour. (Hear, hear.) Tho hon. gentleman seeing
lady abbess—[Sir G. Bowys. 'l.:
that in the convents of Eng-
says there exists a jealousy between this country and the of 'wnhich he (Mr. C. per"
United States. But I utterly deny it. (Hear, hear.) There contradiction coul.l alter a fact
It had happened to anti
learned gentleman might cry
is not only no jealousy, but on the contrary every English- keley) bad personal cos7lizre, Au, led an interviewab weep
man must feel proud at seeing arise upon the other side of
fi3lerlifdeirnshu icsh°n person,
circumstances t
as h e SVAA ' stating.
n
ddearegerelative in
the Atlantic a people of the highest civilisation, and ob- refused permission to see his nearest., '
•—NoNo'07:1", no. The
In' o amount of
,eriorcess. That
taming not only a very great degree of power, but of wealth a convent, unless in presence of the sin
also. (Hear, hear.) I deny therefore that any feeling of not alone the case with ladies who had . 'he white veil
jealousy exiets between this country andthe United States. also with postulants, or persons who took t
fore taking the black."
Undoubtedly there are gentlemen who entertain different
The late Mr. Drummond said:—
ji•om that
views to the hon. member upon the form of government , taken the veil;
lg..
in that country, and who feel that that government is . tleMe
P nion ;* the power of denial in some hon. gen, 1,, could
not the best that could be established. (Hear, hear.) " Hon gentlemen opposite might dissent 1 • was
mosti marvellous ; and the only way in whico- ,;(.., cor
But that is quite a different thing to the feeling which account for it was by supposing that Dr. Wise rnarilizibiia Ke-
he says exists. (Hear.) No doubt there has been expressed rect when he stated in a recent number of_ tYe„,,,r than to:
and felt both in the North and in the South a feeling of irri_ veie:a, that Catholic adaheoliiciallymo laymen liinneesws
tvoerryeanctuql)l,67ssewneect
tation against this country, but that has bean caused by the a
rahowed to know anything about the matter—Ot
natural course of two parties in a quarrel complaining that —not allowed." aotwith
the third party, who was expected to take part in it, did He cited these two passages to show the house that, r no-
not espouse either side. This has given rise to some sort of
standing the flat denials given by the hon. member fo-
,:siaa
complaint and ill-feeling against this country. (Hear.) The
dalk and other members of the Roman Catholic Perstiectioa
North wished us to declare on their side, the South wanted
to the facts alleged in support of the bill for the Ins? bra
us to declare on theirs, and as we maintained perfect neu-
of Nunneries, and in reference to the escape of a 11_111e of
trality between the two it was not unnatural that on both the convent at Atherstone, the house felt that that L'e,,oja tha
sides some slight degree of irritation should arise. But I proceeding was not right, and thought proper tosa nactison to.
am equally persuaded with the hon. member who has just
sat down that in the great bulk of the people of the United believe that if the house had consented to have tuvrored
States there are feelings deeper than that irritation— measure. These were historical facts, and he had. IT
fitots
he adduced tested by a committee it would have he'eenP of
(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Bright)—feelings of goodwill to- at
Oda
wards the country of their ancestors ; and I am satisfied that the denial of them was as little worth on
Dr. Ullathorne as the denial given to the statemen. ,
that when that unfortunate contest shall cease, in whatever
way the termination shall come on—l am persuaded that thing about the want of courage on his part in
3her ever
during the debate of 1853. The hon. membl3r saistttricine g.
when that contest is over those natural feelings of good-
will and relationship which ought to prevail between kin- ladies and ecclesiastics ; but did the hon. :mere ,
_use s
know him shrink from stating his opinion in that noicsert
dred nations will take the place of any feeling of temporary (Hear, hear.) What he thought it his duty to 5
.A 9
irritation to which the circumstances of war may have led. he would defend whenever called upon to doSomij
lam quite satisfied, also, that England will not give the Dr. Ullathorne had been alluded to, he begged to rea'„,ua,
United States any just cause of complaint ; that war will the house that if he singled out his name he did sou e'rtor
not proceed from our side ; and if war does not proceed Dr. Ullathorne in his own letter claimed to be the S Pe_
hot
from our side, and if, as the hon. gentleman thinks will be _that is, the governor, of all the three convents lal_.;0,1
the case, it does not proceed from theirs, then I think we
have a well founded justification for believing that in spite „.11!erston-7
on there, for forcing back these unhappy ladies ite ~
of any adverse appearances of the moment, in spite of the named. He held him responsible for any oppression.col'r to
attempt to escape, first from -Li'.
prognostications of many, the friendly relations between and next from the convent at Co2wieh• Yesterdalt
Atiaer„.
e convent at ii-'" be re-
this country and the United States will not be in any real ceived a letter from the Protestan't clergyman
'o'ers atioo had
danger of being interrupted. But that is no reason why stone, supporting his allegations, by P. C.:°ll' -
ate vroS
we should not use the means in our power to place our with the Catholic priest, who said that one a:llin,,,,„alse hat
fellow citizens, if I may so call them, in Canada in a
state of defence, in the event of their being attacked. troublesome (that was the nun who attempted . ''''.d, There
escape) that they were obliged to have her remove. to set
(Hear, hear.) Sir, there is no better security for peace was the Protestant clergyman at Atherstone resdY ' neii
than strength to resist attack if it should come. That is
port on the authority of the Catholic priest the statop-way
no provocation ; it is an abuse of terms to say that when to which Dr. Ullathorne gave a flat denial. These „,fore
you employ men to prevent danger, if it should arise, you some of the witnesses he would have produced % at.
are provoking that danger and irritating the party against
whom precautions may be taken. If no animosity exists his first letter talked about nuns confined in ehahl,deoce
the committee, had it been granted. Dr. Ullathor: It
those precautions can have no effect except that of was perfectiy true that that statement was in the ev:boro°
inspiring confidence in the party in whose favour they are from which he read extracts ; but how came Dr. Via", _ tba
made ; if there be a disposition to attack it is sure to be les-
sened in proportion as the chance of success may be dimi- to know this evidence, which was never quotedelfuactss
house ? Dr. Ullathorne was perfectly aware of th, nicen
nished. (Hear, hear.) Nov, I cannot concur with m
right hon. friend the member for Caine (Mr. Lowe) in
my and he could only attribute the doctor's flat denio'ryb ato
thinking, whatever difficulties there may be, and difficulties to the sworn evidence to this circumstance :--ve,iiitreh
who knew the organisation of the Roman Catholic Lie Nag
undoubtedly there may be in successfully resisting an
attack if it should be made by America on Canada, that the in respect to convents was aware that Dr. Ulla,thorilre; of
under sworn obligation to maintain inviolate the secsviniag.
defence of Canada is an attempt which we could not sue- those convents, and to resist all attempts of anclinoreforer
ceed in. accomplishing. I think, on the contrary, that
nun to leave, except pe issu superiorian• .i"%ncisr-
Canada may be defended. (Hear, hear.) I also feel that Dr. Ullathorne thought that by propagating o ral
the honour of England and the good faith which is duo to ishi f/0
standing of these facts among the public, anu big
our loyal fellow-countrymen, and those northern provinces, denials of sworn evidence, he was performs
require at all events that we should make the attempt to ttril
duty to a power superior to the laws of this c..,edieato
defend them. (Cheers.) And, therefore, Ido not concur which it was his (Mr. Newdegate's) objectito I;agi's.-
in the argument of my right hon. friend that Canada can- ntt only as a member of that house, but as a 0051/.
not be defended, and least of all can I concur in the con-
clusion, assuming that defence to be impossible, then we trate acting for the county which he represented. s incur;
elusion, Ullathorne might think it a duty to keep null ut that
forthwith draw our troops from Canada. I neither
cerated against their wills, yet, for his part, ho th°lation
admit this urgent nor assent to his conclusion. If there can
infoo jot,
as a magistrate it was his business to seek
be any doubt on the subject, lam anxious there should be within the sphere of his jurisdiction in all cases of 111 d Do
no mistake. I am bound to say that it is not the intention of0;15
risonment or the practice of undue severity',your re'
her Majesty's Government to follow the advice of my right should be wanting in his duty if he did not ell"',I
,„r tri"
hon. friend, and withdraw our troopsfrom Canada. (Cheers.) bring the authors of such offences before the Pr.„nr... vna-
On the contrary, I feel that the honour of England and the bunals of the country. Therefore, as respected J-teetjea
duty of the Government point to our doing everything thorne and himself, there was a conflict in their res Lani
that it may be possible to do ; and lam persuaded that it sense of duty. He regretted that any ecelesiastwtate oa
would be the will of the British nation that we should do minister 8f religion should have thought fit to Yen
our best to defend our fellow-countrymen in Canada if flat denials of sworn evidence. (Hear, hear.)
nate, foe
attacked. Sir, as I said before, lam persuaded that the The O'DONOGHUE thought that the hon. rae
rdia t°
tone of moderation which has prevailed in this debate will King's County was entitled to much credit for aff°,,rtitaitY'
be useful both in Canada and in the United States. No the hon. member for North Warwickshire an °PP,' to pre:
doubt there are those who have endeavoured to persuade to express his regret for what had taken place, an
bet had
the people and the Government of the United States that mise to be more careful in future. If the hon. Inen,l,,at o°l
there exists in this country a spirit of hostility towards not thought fit to avail himself of the opportunity, L'tics of
them, and a looking out for grounds of quarrel. There can his own fault. Having had considerable opportl2llo
be no real and just grounds between us and them. (Hear, watching the hon. member, he had watched his rlebo,ole t°
hear.) We certainly shall not seek.such grounds—we shall with peculiar interest, and yet he had never 1)00-- lion'
not create them—and if the hon. member who has just sat decide, notwithstanding the extreme gravity of t'torieS
down is a true and faithful exponent, as I have no doubt he member's demeanour, whether he really believed the 'lowa
is, of the sentiments of the people of the United States, he told about the Jesuits or about the convents' ho°'
then, I say, there can be no well-grounded apprehension making his ridiculous attacks on that systeol• If „ti., hO h'l,(l
that the peace which happily prevails between us and them member did, then his case was really alarming, P'.. oof It''.,
should bo interrupted ; and I can only confirm the state- often thought that the hon. member would, after sin of i'
ment of my right hon. friend, that the relations between gravest speeches, rush into some lonely place, anuneietaber
the two Governments at the present time are perfectly hearty laugh. What was the position of the Labe'
ea tel.g
friendly and satisfactory. (Cheers.) We have no coin- at the end of so many years during which he had that 111
plaint to make of the conduct of the Government of the ing the house that inquiry was his object, and 10,1)1
United States. They have acted in a fair and great attempt was to see with his own eyes thnseloc
ole,
honourable manner towards us in all matters which and bars behind which ho had tried topersuade
cl:ev,plo3
have arisen between us. No doubt we have claims upon not by assertion, at least by insinuation, that Sow a poada
them which we do not bring forward at present, but which ladies were confined ? The hon. member asked f°d. refass
°
we have announced as admissible that they at some future of inquiry which he knew he could not obtain, an hick li,o
time be discussed. But I trust that the two Governments that mode of inquiry which he could obtain, a1114.h. well''
will feel that it is for the interest—aye, and for the honour ought to have accepted if he were sincere, and 'c -bee linci,,-0
of the inmates of convents was really the
of both, to preserve friendship and peace between them,object
Taber mio
and I trust that matters of this sort are capable of friendly view. The House refused to grant the hon
Tteitere If'
adjustment. All I can say is, that as long as the Govern-
.
committee for sufficient reasons. One was that
at rho l;
ment shall continue to be chargeable with the conduct of no ground for a committee; and the other was thoiad 00. a,
affairs they will do everything which the honour and in- pointment of a committee and its proceedings :,,,,e th° lof
terest of the country require them to do, to maintain in- tend to perpetuate religious discords, which it Jaisb°Pl,sr
violate the relations of peace andfriendship. (Loud cheers.) terest and wish of the house to terminate. T" artesi A
The subject then dropped. ..„ co ,fw
Birmingham had not been treated with ordina's; arab% ra,
CONVENTUAL ESTABLISHMENTS—PERSONAL the hon. member. Dr. Ullathorne gave the hon' 11l hire ' #
ith
EXPLANATION. permission to enter his convents and bring w
tegritP Do
Mr. HENNESSY, who had given notice of his intention testant gentlemen of recognised honesty and "'..oassi°oo..
to put a question to the hon. member for North Warwick- the hon. member had availed himself of this Pe' these on..
shire,:said that since the debate whichihad taken place upon would have found no locks, bolts, and bars 11,020, vatroa
his motion relating to the inspection of convents the hon. vents except such as were used to keep out thlcrerea tins
gentleman had published a letter written in answer to one bonds, and spies ; but ho would have discuy 0800
which he had received from Bishop Ullathorno. The hon. the convents were the abodes of peace and chant
„. for ret'4 too
gentleman was entitled, if he thought fit, to hold, and even mode of inquiry would not suit the hon. mew' per 0-a ill
to publish, the opinion that "the direct action of the Romish which all could comprehend. The hon. raeul,eedoc7t so
hierarchy through or upon the Roman Catholic members good a tactician not to kno x that an inquirys°,:ii. to Pi' 010
of the House had been obvious to every member taking an the presence of honourable men would not "roe hadoat
interest in such questions as were debated" on the occasion end to all false charges. Then the hon. gentlewrs of itted
referred to. That his letter went on to say : hardihood to take the Roman Catholic rael'a a- coil 0-
o when I.stated these facts as connected with this con- house to task for not assisting him to obtain 0,0 an ,is
vent, the facts were denied by some Roman Catholic mem- which could only prove a source of inconvetne
iiortisPLa
bers in the House, but the impression produced by the inmates and which' r f co" to
statement of them, taken together with the other facts at no unto to the of convents,
~cog o ot :
that time alleged, could have had little weight with the addition, might gratify the morbid suslmelog his 0 boil'
house, for the majority seemed to think, with the late Mr. persons whom the hon. gentleman was dc" that til f co°
Drummond, that the power of denial on the part of some delude. Perhaps it was too much to OSPect.toste° °pf
gentleman would desist from
~ein to cl iiires
Roman Catholic members of the house on these subjects
was so wonderful tnat the house decided to consider a mea-
sure for testing these denials by the establishment of anecteci con,
vents, Srr to hope that he would allow them
inspection of convents." sue those pious lives which they had se , wcr oe
heir fehe l't` vicl
This sentence was somewhat involved, but there could not voted to prayer and to the good of t
vr,„t had ..b '„
be the slightest doubt that it conveyed an imputation and But it was not, too much to expect, after 7iry wliet' 024
charge against Roman Catholic members to which no gen- after the hon. member had refused the ing votab_
__' I,soir:
tleman should submit. Heretofore, the hon. member for been offered him, and which every hon••ero and 100
North Warwickshire had adopted the prudent policy of at- feel was amply sufficient tosatisfy every sin„...,e 10'0 tion)°,.
taking women or treating ecclesiastics with very scant
courtesy, and it did not need a very courageous heart to how to estimate the statements which tau seroco
able man, that the house and the cou.nt_ifioo. gento toll
strike a blow at those whose sex or sacerdotal character might think fit in future to make with re'
suing to
foCC Pr.
rendered them incapable of self-defence. But deviating for vents. (Hear, hear.) ap- aDi to
the first time from his old course, the hon. gentleman by Mr. NEWDEGATE rose again, and was loth ".1..
penning that sentence had placed himself for the first time explain that he had declined the inquilicr
Dowd 0 ordv '
Øries of
face to face with those who had power andlikewise the de- Ullathorne because it would have hbe n
termination to require a strict account for the language authority, when he was interrupted, 7
seat.
fter
thus made use of. He wished the hon. gentleman to tell the order," which induced him to resume his a
tiO I"
house distinctly what he meant by that sentence, andwhe- The subject then dropped. .
_doci ef,„,et
ther in hid place in the house he was prepared to adopt it. The other orders of the day were thsPv; at Dan
The charge implied in the sentence was only insinuated, some further business the house adjourns"'
and on that account was all the more offensive. He wished
to ask the hon. gentleman whether he wasprepared to prove
that charge, and if he were not able to do so, then to call
upon him to give to those whom by the insinuation he had
insulted an ample and full apology. (Hear. hear.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE was glad the house had afforded
the hon. member for King's County an opportunity of ex-
plaining the offence which he fancied had been committed.
On last Friday evening he received a note from that hon
member stating that ho intended to call attention to seri-
ous statements made in the letter written in reply to that
from Dr. Ullathorne ; but, as it was impossible for him
then to be present on that occasion, the matter stood over
till the present occasion. Dr. Ullathorne thought fit to deny
in the most explicit terms statements which he had made
when bringing forward his motion, and, not choosing that
allegations of falsehood should be circulated in the district
which ho had the honour to represent, he wrote the letter
from which an extract had been read by the hon. member
for the King's County.. Ho extremely regretted that in the
copy from which that passage was taken an error had crept
in. The language, as it ought to read, was in the following

_ _ AN
London : Printed and Published by Virli'LlAfl We' l'wllof °
No. 112, Strand, Punter, at THE O 1 ()the-Cotl°
Strand, in the Precinct of the SaYoY, I°
Middlesex. —Tuesday, March it, 1801