The Sun.
London, England, 1862-04-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY _EVENING, APRIL 12, 1862.

might hate hers. It wan possible that a vast conspiracy
against Italy might be raised, and that she might return to
priestly rule or to a despotism, but people who had enjoyed
fur three years the inestimable blessings of liberty were not
'likely to return to the old state of things. (Hear, hear.)
He sincerely trusted that the Italians would not be discou-
raged by anything which had passed in that house, When
Italy became, as she would become, a great, united, and
prosperous kingdom, when she took her place among the
family of nations, to which she was entitled by the genius,
wisdom, and virtue of her children—history would record—
if history would condescend to record such things—these
vain and futile attempts which were made by the enemies •
of progress and of human freedom to frustrate and to retard;
the development of the liberties of mankind. (Cheers.) ; ,
Mr. HENNESSY read figured statements in order to
show that the representations of Mr. Layard as to the ma-
terial progress made by Italy since the change of Govern-
ment were directly the reverse of the facts. He argued that
the trade and commerce of Piedmont were crippled, and
that it was on the brink of financial ruin ; and he adverted
to other ill effects, which he attributed to the Italian revo-
lution and the policy of this country in regard to it. He
complained that Mr. Layard had quoted despatches not be-
fore the house, and private letters, and that the Govern-
ment had not furnished it with recent despatches. In the
absence of official information as to the state of Italy, he
referred to the letter, published that day, of the Times' cor-
respondent at Naples, whose testimony he opposed to that
of Mr. Layard's witnesses, and supported his statements
by citing a Piedmontese newspaper.
Mr. SLANEY could bear testimony, from personal ob-
servation upon the spot, that the statements made of the
condition of the Neapolitan provinces ha : been greatly ex-
aggerated ; that the people were contented under their pre-
sent rule, and that things were fast improving. In Lom-
bardy and Northern Italy the people were contented, united,
and happy.

Mr. COCHRANE considered that our Italian policy had
not won for us the confidence of France or of the Parlia-
ment at Turin, and he pointed out dangers likely to embar-
rass that policy in future, The true policy of this country,
in his opinion, was an alliance with Austria.
Mr. DUFF said, admitting, for the sake of argument only,
Sir G. Bowyer's right to call attention to the internal affairs
of another country, what authority had he for the atrocities
he spoke of ? If Italian newspapers, they were generally in
the hands of unscrupulous persons ; if private letters, they
might be from the accomplices of the brigands. After mak-
ing allowance for the influence of mixed motives, he believed
that the intentions of the Emperor of the French in rela-
tion to the affairs of Italy were fair ; in the Roman ques-
tion he had great difficulties to encounter.
Mr. M. MILNES thought there was nothing in late
events in Italy that called for any observation or any inter-
ference on the part of that house, and that Sir G. Bowyer
hal failed in furnishing any plea to authorise such inter-
ference. He hoped the great Italian question would be
allowed to be settled by the Italian people themselves, and
that this and other Governments would interfere as little
as possible. The Roman question, he believed, was capable
of a peaceful solution.

Mr. WHALLEY put the question upon a simple issue.
If the Pied montese had committed acts of severity, they had
acted against the orders and principles of their Government;
if the brigands, in the service of Francis 11., had done what
they were charged with doing, they had acted in accordance
with the principle of their Church. He thought that France
should be called upon to withdraw her troops from Rome,
or be held accountable for the outrage.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
that there was a great deal of force in the objection to a
discussion in that House on the internal affairs of Italy,
which was scarcely consistent with the respect due to a
friendly Power, provided with an arena of its own for such
a discussion. He expressed his surprise at the marvellous
credulity and strange pardoxes exhibited in the speech of
Sir G. Bowyer, and at his simplicity in expecting the House
to manifest the same degree of credulity. He commented
upon the extraordinary doctrines and views of Sir George
Bowyer, who, he said, regarded the improvements in the

laws, the free institutions, and the social ameliorations in-
troduced into the kingdom of Italy, which others considered
demonstrations of freedom, as nothing. The revolution
took place but two years ago, and what had been the result
in that short period ? As regarded two-thirds of the Italian
kingdom, Sir George had practically renounced and aban-
doned the case; and as to the other third, Mr. Layard had
shown that things were improving, and the lucid details he
had given disproved the allegations of Sir G, Bowyer.
With regard to Rome, Sir George required the House to
believe that the people were perfectly satisfied; but there
were some 20,000 French troops kept there for some pur-
pose which Sir George Bowyer had not explained.
Speaking as an individual, he could not but regret,
he said, the continuance of that occupation; and he most
earnestly hoped, for the sake of the name and fame of
France, for the sake of humanity and the peace of Europe,
it might soon be done away. With respect to the temporal
government of the Papacy—one of the questions involved
in this discussion—Mr. Gladstone, in a powerful argument,
urged the impolicy, as well as the injustice, of prolonging it.
Mr. LOCKE said there was one point to which he de-
sired to draw attention—namely, the absence of any expres-
sion of opinion from the opposition bench upon a question
respecting which so strong a feeling existed in the country.
Mr. PEACOCKE considered that the principle of cen-
tralization had failed in Italy ; but if that of federation was
adopted Italy might still be strong and united.

Mr. STANSFELD observed that two questions were in-
volved in the debate—the condition of Italy and the Italian
policy of the Government, which was accused of being par.•
tial and inconsistent with the principle of non-intervention,
But if non-intervention meant indifference, or even neutra-
lity, it would be a negation of all policy. He approved their
policy, as being founded upon correct principles. Sir G.
Bov67er had drawn a dark picture of the condition of Italy;
but he was the advocate in that house of a foreign temporal
power which was the cause of all the evils he affected to
deplore.

Mr. MAGUIRE reproached the Government with taking
part against the Papacy because it was weak. He believed
that Providence, which had watched over the temporal
power of the Pope in the fiery ordeal it had passed through
would raise up human instruments to baffle its enemies.
He arraigned, in very strong terms, certain acts of the Em-
peror of the French.

After some remarks by Mr. O'BRIEN,
Lcrd PALMERSTON said,—l think the hon. member
for Dungarvan, when he reads to-morrow the words he has
spoken to-night, may, on cooler reflection, regret some of
the expressions he has let fall. (Hear, hear.) There is in
this house perfect freedom of speech; every member is en-
titled by the rules and privileges of Parliament to express
in any manner he thinks consistent with the decorum that
ought to prevail in our debates, his opinion of the acts of
any foreign Sovereigns. But I think the hon. gentleman,
on reflection, will feel that his zeal for the head of his
Church has led him somewhat t•,o far in his expressions.
(Hear.) The vehemence and passion with which he has
spoken remind me of a story of a North American Indian,
who, coining to England, attended one of the courts of jus •
tice and heard a trial. He was not familiar with the English
language, but when asked by a friend what was his opinion
of the proceedings, he said it was quite clear which of two
lawyers who had spoken was in the right. One, who went
into a violent passion, was evidently in the wrong ; the
other, who kept his temper, must have been in the right.
(Laughter.) Now, the vehemence and passion the hon.
gentleman displayed in the course of his remarks have
clearly shown an internal consciousness that ho was de-

fending a bad cause, and endeavouring to make violence
and passion the substitutes for argument. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. gentleman has also, I think, treated very un-
justly the services which the Liberal party have rendered
to the Roman Catholics of Ireland. (Hear.) Tho hon.
gentleman said, we thank nobody for the emancipation of
the Catholics ; we have only to thank ourselves for it ; it
was the Irish who carried the question, with no assistance.
from England. I think the hon. gentleman has mistead'
the history of his own time. (Hear, hear.) He has de-
voted great pains and study to the history of the Court of
Rome ; if ho had bestcwed equal attention on the events of
his own period in the United Kingdom, I think he would
come to a somewhat dilferent conclusion. (Hear.) Un-
doubtedly, the Liberal party had not the good fortune ac-
tually to carry the question of catholic Eniaticipation. It
*at Carried by the party which had systematically resisted
it when proposed by others. (Hear, hear.) But it was
owing to the exertions of the Liberal party, and the press-
ing reasons they brought tla bear on the case, that justice
was Ultimately done, and the question carried in a satisfac-
tory manner, (Hear, hear.) I do not complain of the
course the Roman Catholic Members have thought fit to
pursue with regard to her Majesty's Government. I am
willing to make full allowance for the strong religious feel-
ing and natural attachment to the head of their Church.
They are mistaken, and acting under a delusion; but that
mistake and that delusion are to be respected. And 1 as-
sure them We feel no resentment towards them ; we are
willing to trust the course of events, which, I hope, may
lead them to take a sounder view of their relations to the
party by which Catholic Emancipation was supported and
gained. With regard to the hon. baronet Who brought
forward this motion, 1 not only respect his motives, but I
tender him both my thanks and compliments. I compl ...
meat the hon. baronet on this renewed proof he has given
of the fidelity of his attachment to the Church to which he
belongs. I think this does him honour; now the temporal
power of Rome is in danger, the more assured it is of his
vehement support. The more likely it is to lose the small
remnant of the authority it once possessed, the more hon.
ourableis the zeal he manifests in its defence, Like Cato
he prefers to choose the falling cause,—
" Yietrix causa Deis placuit, sed victa Catoni."
The temporal power of Rome is a falling cause. (Hear,
hear.) It is, therefore, a fair subject of personal compli-
ment to the hon, baronet that in spite of the calamity that
surrounds it he is still its friend, champion and advocate, as
he was in the days of greater prosperity. (ti ear.) I think
however the hon. baronet has not done that cause much
good by the manner in which he has brought it under dis-
cussion in the house, because, whatever service he may
have thought he was rendering to the temporal power of
the Pope and to the cause of the fallen Sovereigns of Italy
by the statement he has made, I think, if he had known
beforehand what replies would be made by my hon. friend
the Under-Secretary of State and the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, his own prudence would have ‘counselled him

to be silent and to abstain from bringing down a descrip-
tion of the real state of the Italian question. (Cheers.) Sir,
it is manifest that Italy has been greatly benefited by the
changes that have taken place. I will not now go into a
repetition of the immense advantages Italy has gained by
the change in its Governments. I do not on the other hand,
want to dwell on the enormities committed by the Govern.
ment of Rome under the sanction of the head of the Catho-
lic religion, and in Naples under the sanction of its unhappy
and exiled Sovereign. I will not go into these atrocities;
but they were such as ought tt deter any one from ad-
vocating a cause stained by such cruelties. If
'the Southern part of Italy is disturbed, it is disturbed not
by internal insurrection—not by the people themselves—
but totally and entirely by emissaries, the scum of the earth,
sent there on purpose to murder, to plunder, to destroy by
fire, and even to burn people alive. (Hear.) The hon.
member for Maldon, if 1 understand him, says he does not
wish that Italy should revert to its former condition, but
that there should be a federation, and a federation no doubt
was the plan proposed originally at Villafranca and after-
wards at Zurich. But it has been stated that the people of
Italy were of opinion that a federation would have been im-
possible—that if it had been established it could net have
held good.. However that may be, the time for it had.gone
by ; it was now an impossibility. (Hear.) Italy is now
united with the exception of Rome and the small portion of
territory attached to it and of Venetia. The hon. baronet
says that the King of Italy will never get Rome, that the
Pope will continue there for ever, and the hon. member for
Dungarvan, the expounder of the decrees of Providence—
(a laugh)—says it is destined by the Almighty that the Pope
should be for ever the Sovereign of Rome. las a humble
individual—l as a simple mortal, not being a prophet, not
being an expounder of the Divine intentions--humbly think
it is impossible that the temporal power of the Pope can
continue. My opinion is that, sooner or later, his rule will
come to and end; and, depend upon it, every year, every
month of its continuance will alienate the people of Italy
more and more from his spiritual authority. (Hear.) It
is the interest of the Head of the Church to divest himself
of that temporal power which has been so grievously abused
by those who have exercised it under his authority and in
his name. (Hear, hear.) The two events are not incom-
patible. The hon. member says that the Pope will for ever
remain at the Vatican. I say chat the temporal power of
the Pope will cease, and that Rome, sooner or later, will
become the capital of Italy ; but the Pope might main-
tain his dignity as head of the Church, occupying the
Vatican, and Rome at the same time being the capital of
the Kingdom of Italy. There is nothing incompatible in
the two prophecies ; and it is possible that we may see
the realisation of both, (Hear, hear.) It has been stated
by one of my hon. friends that the destinies of the Pope, as
regards the temporal power, are in the hands of the Emperor
of the French. (Hear.) There is no doubt of the fact. No
doubt the temporal power of the Pope, such as it is, depends
entirely on the presence of the French troops in Rome. I
have heard it said by Catholics that it is essential that the
Head of the Church should be an independent Sovereign.

Is the Pope an independent Sovereign? (Hear.) He is
maintained in his temporal authority simply by 20,000
French troops, against the will of almost the whole of his
subjects. Is that the position of an independent sovereign?
(Hear.) Why, it is the most dependent position that an
unhappy sovereign can possibly occupy ; and, depend upon
it, that condition of things cannot be permanent. I will not
say that the occupation of Rome by French troops is a vio-
lation of international law ; because it exists at the desire
and demand, and with the consent of the sovereign of what
remains of that country ; but, no doubt, it is a violation of
the principle of non-intervention, which hasbeen proclaimed
by France as well as by England; and it is also at distinct
variance with those declarations with which the war in Italy
was commenced, the object of which war was stated to be
to restore Italy to herself, and to make her free from
the Mediterranean to the Adriatic. (Hear.) Italy has
not been restored to herself ; Italy is not free from the
Mediterranean to the Adriatic—(hear, hear) ; but on the
contrary, a most important part of Italy is occupied by
foreign troops keeping from it that government which it
wishes for Italy, and maintaining a system repugnant to
all the feelings of the people and inconsistent with the
principles of political and civil government. (Hear, hear.)
Well, Sir, I cannot think that will last for ever; I cannot
think the policy of France requires it ; I cannot think it is
for the interest of France that it should be maintained.

(Cheers.) There are persons who say—l think I heard it
stated in the debate to-night—that it would be against the
interest of France to have a united Italy. On the other
hand, I have heard it said, as a reproach to England, that
in wishing for a united Italy she wished for that which
would be beneficial to France. It has been urged by those
who are opposed to the policy of her Majesty's Government,
that a united Italy would be an advantage to France. IV ell,
it would be an advantage to France ; not that a united Italy
would be an ally of this Power or that; but as a country
which would take a leading part in the extension of civilisa-
tion and commerce, it would be the friend of all European
Powers and the enemy of none. As to France, a united Italy
would be useful to her not only.as a friend, but it would also
serve as a barrier to France against any hostility from
Powers on the other side of the Italian frontier. Therefore
I say it is a short-sighted policy of France to view with dis-
like or apprehension, if she really does so, the consolidation
of Italy as a united kingdom. (Hear, hear.) Then as to Eng-
land, it must be an advantage to this country to have know-
ledge diffused, commerce extended, and commercial rela-
tions established as far as possible among the various coun-
tries in Europe. (Hear.) I must say, therefore, that I think
the hon. baronet, with the best possible intentions to serve
the cause of which he is so devoted an advocate, has made a
mistake in bringing on this discussion, and giving my hon.
friend the Under Secretary, my right hon. friend the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer and others an opportunity of so
completely demolishing the fragment of the case which he
has made against the existing state of things. (Laughter
and cheers.) Nevertheless, as I before observed, I com-
pliment him on his fidelity and zeal ; and i also thank
him, on the part of the Government, for his compliment to
use which I feel is greater than that which we deserve, in
respect of those, as we think, important and advantageous
changes which have been effected in the condition of Italy.
(Hear, hear.) If those changes be of that character, lam
happy to accept the compliment. We are proud to be
thought to have contributed in the way the hon. baronet
says we have done to an event which every person may con-
sider a happy one. (Hear, hear.) He overrates our merits;
but I am not the less thankful for the kindness which he
has shown us. (Cheers.) We have preserved a strict
neutrality, and adherad to the principle of non-interven-
tion. As has been well said by one of my hon. friends, that
principle' does not consist in apathy and indifference, in
having no opinions, no sympathies. Non-intervention con -
szsts in abstaining from action—in not interfering by force
of arms in a contest in which, notwithstanding, you may

feel a deep interest, and in which as between the parties you
may feel a partiality towards one rather than the other.
(Hear, hear.) We never disgtiffled our sympathy with
the Italians in their struggles to
ain liberty and
independence. We are proud of our feei;n:
in that
respect, and, so far from considering it as any reproae::

which the hon. baronet feels it to be—that we should have

contributed by our advice, as the organ of the sentiments
and sympathies of the British Ration, to bring about the re-
sults that have been achieved, we are proud of any success
that may have attended our efforts in that direction, and
should be happy to see them still more successful in contri-
buting to the perfect consolidation of Italy. Therefore, so
far from feeling angry with the hon. baronet for making
what he considered to be a charge against us, weare proud
of that charge. (Hear, hear.) I think we have given ex-
pression to what are always the feelings of the people of
this country towards those who are struggling for their in-
dependen e, for their liberty, and for their political free-
dom, when those struggles are conducted—as the sttuggles
4f the Italian people have been—with moderation, without
violence, with wisdom, and with a most happy attainment
of the objects in view. (Cheers.) Twice in the history of
ate world Rome has exercised most extensive sway over a
large portion of the human race. In the days of the old
Romans that influence was exerted by military conquest,
and the nations were subdued by the force of arms. At a
later period the Pope, when his authority was at its height,

exercised a power almost supreme over the minds of men
in nearly every part of Europe. The military rule was
annulled by the force of the barbarians. The spiritual
power has gradually waned under the influence of Euro-
pean enlightenment. (Cheers.) I trust that Rome, when
it becomes the capital of Italy, will again be destined to
exercise, not a commanding power, but a great and distin-
guished influence over Europe, by the development of in-
tellect, the progress of arts and sciences, the commercial
activity, the political wisdom, and the general tendencies
towards improvement which will there be witnessed.
(Hear.) When that time arrives—and I trust it may not be
so distant as hon. gentlemen opposite expect—pcsterity
will judge between those who may have contributed to
that
iac
Y the wisdom of their counsels, by their ad-
vice, knowledge, and their influence, and those who
h resisted all improvement, and have been
champions
doggedly resisted
defenders of everything that was corrupt,
t yrveae result
t dnhig b
tyrannical,
alg , and oppressive in the former institutions of
Italy. Posterity will judge between them, and we shall
fearlessly appeal to that tribunal for a decision in our
favour. (Loud cheers.)
The motion of adjournment to the 28th inst, was then
agreed to.
THE REVISED EDUCATIONAL MINUTE.

Mr. LOWE brou;ht up tho revised minute relating to
Education.
Tho papers Were ordered to be laid on the table.
DOCKS.

Mr. CORRY gavo notico that on the 13th of May he
should move the appointment of a select committee
to; in-
quire into the adequacy of the accommodation for docking
her Majesty's S3hips at home and abroad.
INCOME TAX.

Mr. CRAWFORD on the part of the hon. member for
Buckingham (Mr. Hubbard), gave notice that on the 13th
of May he should submit the motion standing in his name
with regard to the income tax.
EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.

In po6tponing the second reading of the bill until after
Easter,
The LORD ADVOCATE (in answer to Mr. CAnt,D)
said, the impression which had prevailed, that the financial
results of this measure would be to put £1,000,000 of
money into the pockets of the 'ended proprietors was an

entire mistake; on the contrary,"the bill would raise from
£35 to £BO, the absolute burden on the heritors.
Mr. HOPE said the landowners objected to the parochial
schools being made stipendiaries of the Government.
The second reading of the bill was postponed until the
Bth of May.
The Exchequer Bonds (L 1,000,000) bill was read a third
time and passed.
The Protection of Inventions and Designs (1862) bill
was read a third time and passed.
The Bills of Exchange (Ireland) Act (1861) Amendment
Bill was read a third time and passed.
Sir R. PEEL obtained leave to bring in bills to amend
the Weights and Measures Ireland (1860) Act, and to con-
solidate and amend the law relating to the registration of
assurances in Ireland.
Colonel SYKES obtained leave to bring in a bill to
amend the Metropolitan Building Act (1855).
Mr. HENNESSY obtained leave to bring in a bill to
enable grand juries in Irelaner to alter the remuneration of,
secretary of grand juries.
The bills were brought in, and severally read a first time.
The house adjourned at 20 minutes to two o'clock until
Monday, the 28th inst.