The Sun.
London, England, 1865-06-27 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 27, 1865.

willingly and most cheerfully against any attempt to sub-
vert the Establishment. There would be others who would
give a vote against the revenues of tho Protestant Church.
But does anybody believe that that oath is a security to
the Protestant Church ? (Hear, hear.) So long as Par-
liament believes that that Church is connected with the
religion of Ireland, with the maintenance of the Crown,
and with the general welfare of the kingdom, so long that
Church will be supported. But if these securities should
fail ; if men should cease to have an attachment to the
Protestant Church in Ireland ; if they should consider it
for the good of England and Ireland that the Church of
Ireland should no longer hold her revenues, do net think
that this flimsy security of two or three sentences in an
oath would be any real security. (Cheers.) Why not then
rely upon that which is the real security ? I believe that
it would be better to give to Protestant and to Catholic the
same religious liberty, and to rely upon the conviction of
Parliament as to what is useful to the country and what
is essential to religion and necessary to the maintenance of
property, and not upon words which were put in to entrap
Roman Catholics, which distress many of them from the
fear that they cannot give a vote in conformity with their
political opinions, and which induce others of greater
violence of opinion to give votes against the revenues of
the Establishment. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord says he
is quite willing to give up that part of the oath which re-
lates to equivocal and mental reservation and to the murder
of sovereigns. But Ido not believe that any advantage
would accrue from taking away that portion of the oath.
You would thereby simply disturb the settlement made in
1829, and you would not by so doing give any real satis-
faction to the Roman Catholics, neither would you com-
plete that which is necessary for religious liberty. If the
object of the Roman Catholic is to endeavour to injure the
Protestant Establishment with the view to aid the Roman
Catholic Church, I think you may rely safely enough upon
the strong Protestant feeling of the country to defeat any
such attempts. (Cheers.) Looking, therefore, upon this
measure as a step in our progress towards religious liberty,
and a necessary step after so many years, and as one that
tends to give to my fellow-subjects that full liberty which
they ought to enjoy, I shall vote most heartily for the
second reading of the bill. (Cheers.)

The Earl of HARROWBi believed that this oath was
framed by Sir R. Peel with an express view to the safety
of the Irish Church, and that it could not be replaced with-
out injury to that institution. For that reason he must
vote against the measure, however repugnant it might be
to his feelings, to anything which seemed like opposing
the fullest extension of religious freedom and equality to
the Roman Catholics.

Earl GREY said that those who contended that the re-
tention of the oath was essential to the maintenance of the
Established Church in England held a doctrine which he
conceived to be injurious to the interests of that Church.
The oath was never intended to prevent Roman Catholics
from voting on Church questions ; and if they were en-
titled, as the noble earl opposite (Earl Derby) admitted
they had been, to vote on the " Appropriation Clause," it
could not be argued that the oath bound them upon all
other Church matters. It appeared to him that every mem-
ber of the Legislature, in both houses of Parliament, was
under the higher and prior obligation to give his vote ac-
cording to his conscience and his judgment, as he believed
best for the country ; and that which was imposed by the
authority of previous Parliaments ought not to be allowed
to fetter him in the exercise of that judgment and discre-
tion. To argue otherwise was—to contend against the first
principle of the constitution. The danger to the Established
Church in Ireland was the discontent of the Irish people ;
but how could it be supposed that the danger was avoided
by preventing the expression of discontent which the
longer it smouldered the fiercer it grew by Roman Catholic
members ? (Hear, hear.) He adhered to the opinion that
the arrangement of Church property in Ireland was so
essentially unjust and contrary to the principles of natural
equity, that, if they were determined to maintafn them
unaltered, sooner or later a great trouble would take place
on the subject. He admitted that it was not desirable to
precipitate that trouble ; but they could not shut their eyes
to the fact that in Ireland they had a Church, professing to
be a national Church, which was of no use to the great
majority of the people. It should not be supposed that
he advocated the subversion of the Protestant Establish-
ment in Ireland ; but, at the same time, he believed that
if they looked into the question in a spirit of wisdom and
justice, and, above all, of Christian charity, it would not be
impossible to discover a mode of settling it which should
be just to all parties, and better for the Protestant religion
than the maintenance of the existing state of things. He
believed that it was this sense of injustice on the part of
the people of Ireland which had prevented the spread of
the Protestant religion in that country ; and until it was
removed, so long would the opposition to the Establishment
be continued. The noble earl (Derby) had contrasted the
past conduct of the Roman Catholics of Ireland with their
present disposition to attack the Church. Such a disposi-
tion might exist ; but if it did, it was the result of the errors
which had been committed by the Governments of England
in dealing with them. When the union of Ireland was
carried, it WAS the desire of Mr. Pitt that that measure
should be followed by the relief of the Roman Catholics
from their disabilities, and by a measure also making some
public provision for their clergy. That wise policy of Mr.
Pitt was defeated by those who saw in it danger to the
Established Church ; and what was the consequence ?
Was there a single man in the country of ordinary intelli-
gence or enlightenment who was not now convinced that
if Mr. Pitt's views had been adopted at the end of the last
century, the Protestant Establishment in Ireland would
stand in a position of far less insecurity than it did at this
; moment ? (Hear, hear.) Were they then, after such ex-
perience, to repeat the same mistake ? Would they, for the
sake of maintaining an imaginary security for the Church
a little longer—he believed that font or five years was the
longest date which any man accustomed to read the signs
of the times would give to the maintenance of the Catholic
oath—would they, for the sake of maintaining that imagi-
nary security a little longer, add a new cause of irritation
and a new cause of hatred against the Establishment in the
minds of their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects ? That was
the question which they had to decide; for, while he did not
disguise his feeling that the Irish Church Establishment
must undergo reduction and readjustment to the state of
the country, he at the same time should say that those who
wished to prevent its entire subversion would vote un-
wisely if they concurred in the rejection of the bill before
them. (Hear, hear.)
Lord ST. LEONARDS observed that the argument of
the noble earl was to the effect that this bill was intro-
duced to modify certain portions of the Roman Catholic
Relief Act of 1829. But what would the noble earl argue
if the bill before their lordships were one for withdrawing
the privileges which that Act had conferred upon the
Roman Catholics of the empire ? It was urged that the
present form of oath was only intended to be temporary by
those who had framed the Act of 1829. He was one of
those who had something to do with tho framing of that
measure, and ho ventured to say that no Minister would
have dared to pass the Act without including those safe-
guards in it. At the time of the passing of the Act the
Roman Catholics would have accepted it subject to the
condition that Roman Catholic members should not be
allowed to vote upon ecclesiastical questions. But Sir
Robert Peel objected to such a proposal, as it might give
rise to endless disputation as to what was an ecclesiastical
question. The Roman Catholic laity and clergy accepted
the Act in its present form, and they should not now seek
to escape from the compact they had freely agreed to at
the time. A few years ago, when the whole of England,
in defiance of numerous Acts of Parliament, had been par-
celled out into Roman Catholic dioceses by the Pope, the
blood of Englishmen was roused to the utmost pitch of in-
dignation. One of the immediate results of that excite-
ment was that an Act, very stringent in words, was
passed, restraining any Roman Catholic archbishop, bishop,
or dean from styling himself after the name of his diocese
or deanery ; but the Act, though free from all ambiguity
in words, was allowed to become a dead letter, and they
saw the ecclesiastics' of the Roman Catholic Church openly
violating it with impunity. Considering that the Roman
Catholic oath as now taken was the result of a compact in
which the Roman Catholics agreed, he was not prepared to
give up the security which it offered.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE, in announcing his
warm support of the bill, pointed out that every measure
intended for the relief of the Roman Catholics of Ireland
was opposed by noble lords opposite, who professed them-
selves the warmest friends of the country. It was so with
respect to the Emancipation Act ; it was so on the educa-
tion question ; and it was so in regard to the proposal to
reduce the number of bishops of the Irish Church Estab-
lishment—a measure, by the way, which had turned out
most beneficially for the interests of that Establishment.
Now, had the noble lord who had just sat down shown that
the welfare of the Irish Church depended upon the main-
tenance of these words of the oath which the bill proposed
to expunge ? He rejoiced to say that he had totally failed
to do so. For although there was no denying that an in-
stitution like the Irish Church was full of anomalies, yet,
having had abundant opportunity of witnessing the bene-
ficial working of an Established Church as compared with
the working of a church supported upon the voluntary
principle, he must say he regarded the principle of estab-
lishing religion in connection with the State with the
utmost favour. Tho great misfortune for Ireland and for
the Established Church was that the proposal of Mr. Pitt
had not been carried into effect in the year 1826, when
there was an opportunity of doing so, and that the main
tenance of the Roman Catholic religion was not adopted
by the State. He regarded the attempt to fetter Roman
Catholic members of Parliament as both impolitic and ab-
surd, and he was well aware that the oath in its present
shape was most offensive to many Roman Catholics. In
his opinion there ought to be only one simple form of oath
applicable to every citizen in this free community, and that
ought to be framed without any reference to a man's reli-
gious belief.
Lord CHELMSFORD said it was to be lamented that
a question of the kind should have been agitated on the
eve of a general election ; and, at any rate, if it was to be
brought forward, it ought to have been brought forward
upon the avowed responsibility of the Government. It
might be said the Government had no control over the
action of independent members of Parliament ; but, in
this instance, it ought to be remembered the proposal ema-
nated from one who was a warm supporter of the Govern-
ment, and who, no doubt, would have been very glad to

have committed this matter to their care. He could not
agree with his noble friend (Lord Devon) that there was
very little practical difference between the oath embodied
in this bill and that of the Act of 1858. The Act of 1858
embodied a recognition of the Royal supremacy, whereas
this oath did not. Now he would strongly object to any
oath which enabled Protestants, in common with Roman
Catholics, to ignore the Royal supremacy. However, the
question before them was, whether they were prepared to
say that the most valuable and essential part of the oath of
1829 should be abolished. He did not mean to strain the
Act of 1829 beyond its natural range, and to say that every
provision of it was unalterable ; still there were parts of it
which were vital and of permanent obligation. He would
have consented to removing that portion of the oath which,
having been repealed as regarded the Protestants, might
fairly be considered by Roman Catholics as invidious and
insulting; but with regard to the other part of the oath—
that which was the condition upon which Roman Catholics
were admitted to Parliament—he could not consent to its
abolition. Their lordships would observe that with re-
spect to that portion a Roman Catholic did not complain
that it was offensive, but that it was a restraint upon his
conscience,- and therefore he desired it to be removed. The
answer to that was, that such restraint was precisely what
was intended in 1829, and what the Roman Catholics had
agreed to accept. It was said that there were scrupulous
Roman Catholics who abstained from interfering in any
questions connected with the Established Church, on the
ground that they were restrained by the oath which they
had taken ; but it was said, too, that the oath was am-
biguous, and that the Roman Catholics hardly knew
how they were to act on particular occasions. Some felt
that the oath was binding, and others that it was not.-
Unscrupulous persons would not be bound by any oath;
and as to ambiguity, every man must construe the
oath according to his own conscience, and, if he enter-
tained the slightest doubt about acting, adopt the safe rule
of practical morality, and refrain from acting. There was
no doubVrom this feeling existing, that the oath did not
act as a restraint, and he contended that the-present was
no time to remove any securities, because there was a dis-
position on the part of the Irish Roman Catholics to aim a
deadly blow at the Establishment in that country, and that
the English Catholics would necessarily be exposed to ex-
ternal influence to induce them to adopt the aggressive
policy which the noble lord proved, by a sermon by the
present Archbishop Manning, to be the avowed object of
the Roman Catholic Church. For these reasons he would
not consent to abandon what he firmly believed to be a
security to the Established Church.

Lord LYVEDEN looked upon what had been said
against the bill as merely uttered for election purposes, and
contended that the bill could not have been in better hands
than those of the noble earl who had introduced it. The
opinion of the country, so far as could be ascertained, was
decidedly in favour of the bill. He denied that the settle-
ment of 1829 was the only question before the house. An-
other question was, whether a bill which had been sent up
by large majorities of the House of Commons should, on
the ground of the settlement, be rejected. The Catholics
stated that the oath was vague, indefinite, ambiguous, and
in many respects offensive to them. The ground had been
cleared up to a great extent by the admissions made by
several noble lords that night that a great portion of the
bill was offensive. He utterly denied there was any com-
pact made in 1829 which should preclude the House of
Commons from sending up such a bill as that before their
lordships. It was admitted that in two respects the bill
ought to be altered, but he thought that it ought to be
altered in many others. Promissory oaths were always
objectionable, and the more so when they wore as vague
as the present. He denied that the Church was in danger,
and maintained, on the contrary, that it would be perfectly
safe even though assailed by Roman Catholics and Dis-
senters. He thought it would be well if the noble earl
(Earl Derby) had allowed the bill to go into committee,
and contended that they were as much entitled to alter
the oath as to do any other legislatiie act within the pro-
vince of Parliament. Ile hoped that they would show to
their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects that they had not
forgotten the principles which dictated the Emancipation
Act, and that they would endorse the statement of Sir R.
Peel that the Roman Catholics, since 1829, had shown by
their conduct that they were influenced by no other than
conscientious motives in their votes in Parliament.
(Hear, hear.)

The Marquis of WESTMEATH, who addressed the
house amid loud cries of " Question," observed that thd
oath which Roman Catholic bishops took on their conse-
cration contained passages similar to those which the Ro-
man Catholics of these countries, in their squeamishness,
now objected to, and that the bill came from the other
house only by a majority of 19.
Lord STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE said that if he
followed his inclinations he would not vote at all; but that,
considering the time and circumstances under which the
bill was introduced, he should oppose the second reading.
The house divided. The numbers were—
For the second reading—Contents
Non-contents
Majority—Non-contents —2l.
The bill was therefore rejected.
The following bills were read a second time :—Carriers'
Act Amendment Bill ; Foreign Jurisdiction Act Amend-
ment Bill ; Rochdale Vicarage Bill ; Naval Discipline Act
Amendment Bill; and the Sugar Duties and Drawbacks
Bill.

read the third time and passed, after a short discussion, in
which Colonel Sykes, Mr. J. White, Mr. Adderley, and
Mr. Cardwell took part.
On the order for going into committee upon the Turn-
pike Acts Continuance Bill,

Lord HENLEY complained of the slow progress made
towards the total abolition of turnpikes, recommended by
the committee of last year.

The house wont into committee upon this bill, the
clauses of which wore agreed to.

The Report of the Inland Revenue Bill was agreed to,
with an amendment, and the bill was read a third time and
passed.
The Report of the County Court Equitable Jurisdiction
Bill was likewise agreed to, with sundry amendments.

fhe Indemnity Bill and the Compound Warehousing
Bill were read the third time and passed.

The Colonial Docks Loan Bill passed the Committee,
with amendments.

The Local Government Supplemental (No. 5) Bill was
read the third time and passed.

Several Bills were read the second time.
The Railway Debentures, &c., Registry Bill was with-
drawn.

The Lords' amendments of certain bills were considered.
The House adjourned at a quarter-past eight o'clock.

Naval and Military Intelligence.

Her Majesty's newly-constructed steam ram cor-
vette Pallas, attended by the dockyard tug Monkey,
Mr. Smithers, master, returned to Woolwich yester-
day morning in command of Capt. Luke, Royal
Naval Steam Reserve at that station, after her pre-
liminary trip to the Maplin Sands, and was again
docked for the readjustment of her screw.

The iron paddle vessel Antelope, recently on ser-
vice on the West Coast of Africa, which has been
detained at Sheerness for official purposes, was yes-
terday inspected at Woolwich by Commodore Dun-
lop, C. 8., Superintendent of the dockyard, After
unshipping her guns and war stores she will be
stripped and paid out of commission. In conse-
quence of the untimely death of her commander,
Lieut. Constantine 0. D. Allingham, the Antelope
came home in command of Second-Master Alfred
Thomas. She was commissioned at Woolwich on
the sth of August, 1861, and has been successful in
capturing three slavers, by which the ship's comp., ny
will be entitled to a good amount of prize money.
The Mariner, 12, and the Childers, 12, attached
to the sailing reserve in Chatham harbour, have
been purchased from the Lords of the Admiralty by
Capt. H. F. M'liillop, the Mariner being in-
tended for a powder magazine. Although these,
and the other snips composing the sailing reserve,
are quite out of date as ships of war, they are in
sound condition ; and, as the moorings they occupy
in the harbour are required for other vessels, the
Admiralty would act wisely in selling them out of
the service with as little delay as possible. An order
has been received for the sale of the gun-vessel
Plover, 5, 800 horse-power, recently paid off at
Chatham on her return from the coast of Africa.

The armour-plates for the reconnoitring tower
now being constructed at Chatham, for the iron
frigate Bellerophon, will be manufactured by Messrs.
Cammell and Co., of the Cyclops Iron and Steel
Works, Sheffield, whose tender at £35 per ton has
been accepted by the Admiralty. The fore and aft
plates of the tower will be eight inches in thickness,
and the port and starboard plates six inches thick.
The difficulty in which the Turret-ship Committee
found themselves placed, as noticed in the " Naval
Intelligence" of The Sun of Saturday, by the refusal
of Capt. Coles to entertain any consideration of a
summary of objections raised by the Committee on
evidence given, but which evidence Capt. Coles was
not allowed to read, has been put an end to by the
Admiralty directing the Committee to close their
report and forward it to Whitehall immediately.
Their lordships have further intimated that, after
having permed the evidence and the report of the
Committee, they will communicate directly with
Capt. Coles.
Port-Admiral Sir Chas. Fremantle, K.C.8., went
on Sunday into Plymouth Sound, and inspected the
iron-cased screw steamship Caledonia, 31, flag of
Rear-Admiral Hastings R. Yelverton, second in
command in the Mediterranean.

The transport Tyburnia, 961 tons, Capt. Fredk.
Coote, belonging to Messrs. Somes, Brothers, Black-
wall, arrived in Plymouth Sound on Saturday even-
ing. She left Madras on the 9th of March with the
headquarters of the 66th Regiment, under command
of Lieut.-Col. Tom Benson, consisting of 22 ser-
geants, 7 drummers, 242 rank and file, 15 women
and 21 children, and 3 privates of the 60th Rifles.
The officers of the 66th are Capts. J. Galbraith and
C. W. Oliver, Lieuts. 11. K. F. Merewether and
W. L. Battie, Ensigns 11. W. Baker and E. T. John-
ston, Lieuts. and Adjt. T. Mahony and Surgeon L.
W. S. Murray, M.D., with Mrs. Mahony and family,
and Mrs. Coote. The Tyburnia rounded the Cape
of Good Hope on the 25th of April, left St. Helena,
on the 7th May, crossed the Equator on the 16th
May, and passed the Western Islands on the 4th
June, since which strong north-easterly winds have
been experienced, and have detained her three weeks.
On the Bth of June she spoke the Hanoverian
schooner Almuth Ukeria, 188 days from Rio Grande
for Falmouth ; on the 17th, the ship Maxwell, from
Callao for Cork ; and June 22d, the ship Anto-
netti, from Valparaiso for Cowes. The troops will
probably be quartered in Plymouth citadel.
The invalided troops brought to England from
Calcutta in the sailing Indiaman Roslin Castle
were transferred from that ship at Spithead yester-
day by a Government steamer to the Royal Vic-
toria Military Hospital at Nutley, after which the
Roslin Castle sailed for London. The officers and
troops comprised :—Capt. W. St. John, and Mrs.
St. John, 94th Foot ; Lieut. Spottiswoode, 21st
hussars ; Lieut. Heathcote, 98th Foot ; Lieut.
Moore, 42d Foote; Assist.-Surg. Maunsell, 48th
Foot ; 194 invalids (various regiments), 13 women,
and 25 children. Six deaths occurred on the voy-
age. Capt. and Mrs. St. John proceeded on from
Spithead to the Thames in the ship, on account of
the illness of Mrs. St. John. .

The banquet announced to be given by the officers
of the Royal Artillery to Lieut.-Gen. Sir Hugh
Rose, G.C.8., K. 5.1., recently in command of the
forces in India, came off yesterday evening at Wool-
wich. Sir Hugh arrived in the garrison from Lon-
don in the morning, attended by his aide-de-camp,
Capt. Wilkins, and passed the early portion of the
day, accompanied by Lieut. Reilly, C. 8., Royal
Horse Artillery, in inspecting the Arsenal. Covers
were laid for 130 persons. Among those present
were Lieut.-Gen. Sir Robert Napier, Lieut.-Gen.
Sir Richard Dacres, Major-Gen. T. Gordon Hig-
gins, Major-Gen. Sandham, and other officers who
have been rewarded for meritorious and distin-
guished services in the field. Major-Gen. E. C.
Warde, C. 8., commanding the garrison, presided.
The following order has been issued at Wool-
wich :—" Commandant's Office, Woolwich, June
26.—A1l practice will be suspended at the practice
range, Plumstead-marshes, from the 28th inst. to
the 15th of July inclusive, to enable the contractors
to cut and carry the grass crop, agreeably to the
conditions of their tenders."

The appointment of director of the Royal Engineer
establishment, Chatham, has become vacant by the
resignation of Col. H. D. Harness, C.. 8., who will
be succeeded by Col. J. L. A. Simmons, C. 8., at pre-
sent attached to the staff at Aldershott. The duties
attached to, the appointment of director are now
being performed by Lieut.-Col. T. B. Collison.
The following appointments were made yesterday
at the Admiralty :---Commander W. Chimmo, to the
Gannet, commissioned; C. W. Ross, master, to the
Sphinx ; Lieut. Alex.- R. Kerr and Lieut. Francis
Hayter, to the Victoria and. Albert; Lieut. Lynedoch
N. Moncrieff, as additional to the Princess Royal ;
Lieut. J. A. Dashwood, as additional to the Curacoa ;
P. H. Rickman, midshipman, to the Achilles ; Henry
Rickard, assist.-surg., to the Wellesley, for Chatham
yard ; and J. Ashton, assist. paymaster, to the
Sphinx.

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