The Sun.
London, England, 1862-04-05 00:00:00

CAPTAIN COLES' SHOT-PROOF SHIELD.

Admiral WALCOTT asked the Secretary to the Admi-
ralty whether he had any objection to lay upon the table of
the house the correspondence which might have arisen be-
Lwoca, Oat:l.W Cuwpei Golub, or LllO itoyai Navy, and the
Board of Admiralty on the subject of his shot-proof shield,
inclusive of the year 1855 up to the present time ; likewise
the report made on this subject by the late Admiral Lord
Lyons, and also that of Capt. Powell, of the Royal Navy,
ordered to be carried out on board of H.M.S. Trusty,
Lord C. PAGET said that the correspondence in ques-
tion contained much that it would not be desirable to make
public. With regard to the cupola, the plan was origi-
nally proposed to the Admiralty in 1855.
BURIAL ACT, &c.

Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE moved an address for re-
turns of all moneys borrowed and rates levied under the
public Burial Act in every parish in England and Wales
where the act had been applied ; of the number of chapels
erected and the quantity of land assigned to the use of the
Church of England and to Nonconformist commu-
nities respectively, and the proportionate cost of pro-
viding the said chapels and burial grounds in
each parish paid out of tho public rates ; of the number of
interments annually in the ground assigned to the Church
of England and the Nonconformist communities respec-
tively, and the average cost of interment in the said grounds
to the yearly parochial rates ; and of the amount of church
rates levied in each of the same parishes during the years
the Burial Act has been in operation.—Ordered.
AUDIT OF JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES.
Mr. O'BRIEN asked the President of the Board of Trade
whether it was the intention of the Government to introduce
any measure during the present session for an official and
effectual audit of the accounts of joint-stock companies?
TRANSATLANTIC STEAMERS.
Mr. SCULLY asked the President of the Board of
Trade, when he expected that the returns as to transat-
lantic steamers, ordered on the 25th February and' id March
last, would be laid before this house?

Mr. M. GIBSON said with regard to the first question,
that it was not the intention of Government to introduce
any measure relating to the audit of joint-stock companies'
accounts, and they considered the present system quite suf-
&fent. In reference to the question of the hon. member
(Mr, Scully), the returns alluded to were in progress, and
when completed would be laid before the house.
Mr. O'BRIEN gave notice that after Easter ho would
move for the adoption of a more efficient mode of auditing
joint-stock companies.
CONVENTION WITH MEXICO.

Mr. FITZGERALD asked whether the Govern-
ment had received official information relative to the
convention said to have been entered into at Soledad be-
tween the Allied Powers and the Government of Mexico ;
whether theßritish Force had been or was about to be with-
drawn from the territories of the Republic ; and whether
instructions had been sent out to the British Minister ap-
proving of the terms of the Convention?

Mr. LAYARD said the the Government had received
official information of a convention, not between the Go-
vernments of the Allied Powers, but between the commis-
sioners of the three Powers and the Government of Mexico.
It was true that the British forces had been withdrawn
from Mexico, with the exception of 100 men out of the ori-
ginal force. That remainder had been left for the purpose
of carrying on merely the ordinary duty. ller Majesty's
Government had approved of the convention, and it was
to be hoped that the convention will fulfil the expectations
that were entertained of it.
CRIMINAL CONVICTIONS IN IRELAND.
Col. ISUNNE asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland
when the returns of convictions at the Curragh Court-house
and Petty Sessions in Kildare in Ireland, ordered by the
house, w„,,,id be laid upon the table ?
t sea
Sir It. PEEL said the returns in question were pre-
on the 28th ult., and were ordered to be printed.
, TIM NELSON MONUMENT.
On the motion tor
Koing into committee of suppl
Admiral WALCOTT y
drew the attention of the Chief Com-
missioner of the
which the ardor Works to the incomplete state in
the base o N.
-n Monument was still suffered
to remain,

• PAPER moxxv
Mr. H. BAILLIE moved 4131 N INDIA.
fz.,rat of India with
address for copy of the
agreement entered into by the :
the Bank of o
Bengal, fr the issue
Sir C. WOOD said it was not int„,,Per_ money in India.
the existing arrangement. to interfere with
THE NELSON MONUMENT.
Mr. COIVPER, in answer to the hon. and ea
mem-
ber (Admiral Walcott) who had brought the sitbrettt
M
the house, said that an order had been given in 1868tofory
:
Bir
E. Lndseur for the completion of the lions for the base
the statue. But ho supposed in this, Gain other es
they could not always command genius, and perhaps th's
distinguished artist to whom the work Was entrusted was
studying the habits of lions—(laughter)—and he had been
seen frequently in the Zoological Gardens. (Renewed
laughter.) The consequence was that they might look
forward to a work of greater perfection than if it had been
executed at the time the order was given.
POLAND.

Mr, DENMAN called attention to the condition of Po-
land, and moved for papers in reference thereto, He refer •
red to the partition of Poland, and quoted the words of Lord
"Inca.
ay in reference to that political event, in which he
esignated it like tearing a living man limb from limb, lie
then went, in detail, through the different steps that had
been taken by Ruffin to denationalise Poland sub-

sequent to the partition, and In violation of
the treaty of Vienna ; notwithstanding which I
the feeling of nationality in the minds of the people .of
Poland was undiminished. In the conference which took
place between the great powers of Europe prior to the
Treaty of Paris in 1856, Lord Clarendon rec ,ived an assur-
ance on the part of the Emperor of Russia that certain in-
stitution* would be granted and certain • bings done for
Poland, and on the faith of that promise,
Lord Clarendon made no further demands in reference to
Poland. He thought that the Government must be in pos-
session of papers relating to what had taken place in refer-
ence to Poland at that convention, and he thought it was
not only due to that unfortunate country, but to this coun-
try, to have those papers produced, to show that English
feeling was in favour of the cause of Poland. He then
gave a copious narrative of the more recent transactions at
Warsaw, dwelling upon the persecutions experienced by the
Poles in 1861, and the petty, irritating orders of the Rus-
sian authorities, and contended that no real attempt had been
made by the Imperial Government to give the Poles the in-
stitutions they so eagerly desired, though he did not know
that the Emperor of Russia was acquainted with the acts at
Warsaw done in his name. He justified his appeal to the
House of Commons in this matter, and moved for the papers
he had referred to.

Lord PALMERSTON observed that everybody who had
turned bis mind to the history of Poland must feel for the
Poles great admiration for their qualities and sympathy for
their misfortunes. There was no doubt that the stipulation
in the Treaty of Vienna that the Poles should have a con-
stitution, and national institutions had remained till 1830 a
dead letter. In that year the Poles thought they had an op-
portunity of emancipating themselves; the attempt was
successful; they were subdued, and the authority of Russia
was restored, The Russian Government thought they were
then entitled to abolish the constitution which the• Emperor
Alexander had given. But this was not a question between
that Government and the Poles ; the engagement was con-
tracted between Russia and the other Powers of Europe,
and the British Government thought they were fairly en-
titled to remonstrate against the abolition of the constitu-
tion. Our remonstrance was not attended to; nevertheless,
this was a grievance of which the Poles might justly com-
plain. If the organic statute had been fairly carried out,
the condition of the Poles might still have been tolerable.
't fortunately, that was not the case; there was a national
antagonism between the Russians and the roles. Recent
events were greatly to be lamented ; but ho did not see that
that house could be a judge between the two parties. At
the same time, it was difficult not to express an opinion,
and, as an individual member of the house, he thought
the Poles had cause of complaint. It seemed to him,
however, that a nation in their circumstances ought to
consider the effect of any conduct they might bo ad-
vised to pursue, The revolt of 1830 was intelligible; but in
recent transactions the Poles could not feel that they had
any fair prospect of obtaining what they sought. Was it
wise, then, to adopt that offensive system of demonstrations
described by Mr. Denman ? These were acts which could
produce no effect upon the condition of Poland, while they
were calculated to irritate the Russian authorities. On the
other hand, he must say it was totally unworthy of those
authorities to have visited with acts of severity and cruelties
which nothing could justify these harmless demonstrations.
He hopid, and he believed, that these acts had not been
sanctioned or even known by the Emperor of Russia, who
had appeared to him a kindhearted and benevolent man. As
to the future, the Poles should be advised to look at the so-
cial changes going on in Russia, which must sooneror later
lead to the extension of political privileges to the nation,
and he should say to the Poles, " Wait for that." At all
events, it was not a matter in which this country could
wisely or usefully interfere. He was unable to say whether
the papers moved for could be produced.
The discussiou was continued by Mr. Hennessy, Sir H.
Verney, Mr. M. Mibaes, and Mr. Griffith.
Mr. DENMAN withdrew his motion.
IRON-PLATED SHIPS AND FORTIFICATIONS,
Mr. OSBORNE moved a resolution, "That it is expe-
dient to suspend the construction of the proposed forts at
Spithead until the value of iron-roofed gunboats for the de-
fence of our ports and roadsteads shall have been fully con-
sidered." He urged, as an apology for the motion, the great
importance of the question and the unsatisfactory nature of
the answer from the Treasury bench, Sir G. Lewis having
held out no hope that the construction of the forts would
be abandoned. He (Mr. Osborne), however, did not ask
that the works should be at once abandoned ; his mo-
tion went only to their suspension until the value of
iron-roofed vessels had been tested, which he thought was
no excessive demand upon the Government. After a rapid
review of the question of national defence, and of
the discussions upon the propositions of the Govern-
ment, he read thedescription of the " peculiarly formidable"
forts at Spithead given by the Royal Commissioners, which
they at the same time admitted would be totally incapable of
stopping the passage by iron-clad steamers, He referred
also to the letter of Sir Richard Dundas, who had recom-
mended that an-immediate outlay of money would be more
properly expended upon iron steamships. He complained
that, after the large sum expended upon Armstrong guns,
the armament of the navy was in an eminently unsatisfac-
tory condition. He adverted to the action in Hampton
linorlo, aria to tho &atm of the Merrimac and the Monitor,
the invention of which he claimed for Captain Cowper Coles,
whose plan had been submitted to our Government six years
ago, and quietly put to bed ; but while we were reflecting
the Americans had been acting. He insisted that it would
be good economy for the Government to forfeit their con-
tract for the erection of the forts.

The motion was seconded by Sir M. PETO, who deduced
from the report of the Royal Commissioners, and the evi-
dence taken by them, an argument against the utility of the
forts for the defence of Portsmouth. He regarded the whole
scheme, he said, as a gigantic folly. •
Mr. BENTINCK considered that the resolution, though

it went in a right direction, did not go far enough, and he
proposed to add the following words,:—"And that this house
will, on an early day, resolve itself into a committee for the
purpose of empowering the Government to apply any por-
tion of the moneys which have been voted for the construc-
tion of forts to the construction of iron sheathed vessels."
Ho was, however, prevented by the forms of the house from
moving the amendment.

Lord PALMERSTON said—The subject which has been
brought under the consideration of the house by my hon.
friend and the hon. gentleman opposite is one the import-
ance of which it is difficult to exaggerate—(hear, hear)—be-
cause it involves nothing less than some of the dearest and
most vital interests of our common country. (Cheers.)
Therefore I trust it is unnecessary for me to say that I accept
cordially and frankly the assurances which have been given
by those who have made this motion and supported it, that
they do so in no party spirit ; that they do not propose this
as a party question ; that they do not seek to obtain any
momentary party triumph; and that they are actuated by
a sincere and patriotic desire that that course should be
pursued which is most conducive rapidly and efficiently to
provide for the defences which are requisite for the inte-
reAs of the country. (Cheers.) I can assure the house on
the part of the Government that they go into the considera-
tion of this subject upon precisely the same principles. We
should be ashamed of ourselves if we were to be led by pre-
'flow opinions, or if, by a desire to adhere strictly to plans
and opinions which at a former period have been enter-
tained, we were to shut our eyes and close our ears against
facts and reasonings which are entitled to mature reflection,

and which may alter previous opinions or confirm them.

Those facts and reasonings deserve, and not only deserve
but require, the most calm and deliberate investigation.
They are not matters which turn on one accidental event,
or on the opinion of this or that man, however distinguished
by professional knowledge and merit either in the army or
navy These aro questions involving great expenditure
and great outlay, and an outlay and expenditure which the
Government ought not to undertake without having ascer-
tained beforehand, as far as experiment can ascertain it,
that that which they are about to do, and which they cell
upon Parliament to furnish the means of doing, will be really
effective for the purpose for which it is intended. lam not
surprised that the public in general should have been struck
with the encounter in the Arneriean waters, not having turned
their minds attentively to the question as to the degree to
which iron plating is proof against cannon shot, and the
extent to which experiments have been made. lam not
surprised that the public at large
,should have their eyes
opened, and their minds struck, by the conclusions naturally
derived from the event which has taken place. But I can
assure the house, although it may be unnecessary to do so
after the statements and explanations made by the First
Lord of the Admiralty, that these matters have occupied
the anxious attention of the Government for a great length
of time. (Hear.) Experiments have been made in order to
test questions of great importance with a view to the con •
elusions at which we could safel3 arrive. Take one instance,
which has been adverted to by one of my hon. friends—the
relative value of rifled cannon and smooth-bored cannon in
attacking iron plating. The impression originally was that
rifled cannon would be more destructive. But, on the con-
trary, it is found by careful experiments that within those
short distances at which ships are likely to engage the
smooth-bored gun is more effective than the rifled gun.
When you come i,o think of it, it is natural that it should
be so, because a smooth-bored gun sends out a ball with
much greater initial velocity than a rifled gun. The shot
from a rifled gun, being longer than that from a smooth-
bored gun, and meeting with loss resistance, though it goes
further and straighter, preserves its velocity longer, and at
a distance is more effective. But the solid sphere—the solid
ball coming out of a smooth-bored gun, starting with
greater initial velocity, does not get that velocity died.
nished within a certain limit of distance, and, the momen-
tum being a compound of velocity and weight, strikes with
greatert momentum within 300 or 400 yards than the rifled
cayogheersa That is one instance in which experiments
vio I'Y made have altered the opinion which was pu-
lls Y entertained
the ns
'-'-'wer of the •
and very mice, the
1 (Hoar,) Well, then, with respect to
armour to resist shot. That has been tried,
of the Warric,,
antlY tried, on a target representing the sides
yards, or less-200a \'''''y short distance—some 300 or 400
th,t the largest ohoLatwds, indeed—and it has been found
not succeeded in piercing'
naturally led the Government, f
conclusion to which the public oiT,
by a knowledge of what took placelsd
atti.:enow in the habit of using have
some time past to that
hasul suddenly arrived
uur,
it n wt ateniy
Bat that vliich happened thcreet,ialhegsees;;Pecriielnanen: hoary:
lesson in ono
way, is also a warning in another ; bee,