The Sun.
London, England, 1862-03-04 00:00:00

zettled, and asked by what process the Chancellor of the
Exchequer arrived at the speedy repayment which he had

mentioned.
Sir C. WOOD said there would be a monthly muster roll
received from India, and it was easy from these rolls to as-
certain the average payment for the 12 months.
The house then divided, and the numbers were—
For Sir 11. Willoughby's motion ...... 55
Against it
The motion was consequently lost.
General PEEL said he thought nothing could be so un-
sa isfactory as the condition of that house with regard to

the control it exercised over the expenditure of the money

which it voted. The observations that he was about to

make were dictated by no party feeling whatever, and
wpuld not apply t.) any particular Government or individual.
It was perfectly true that they had the estimates laid before

them, and it was said to be in the power of the house to
reduce the amount of those estimates. That would be

taking upon themselves a degree of responsibility which
he for one would be very sorry to share. The esti-

. .
mates were produced on the authority and responsibility
of the Government of that day. Motions had frequently
been made to refer the estimates to a committee. To such
motions he had always been opposed. He did not think
that such a course would tend to economy. The increase

in the military expenditure had risen in great measure from
resolutions in that house. For instance, it had been pro-
posed that a regiment should only be called to serve ten

Tears abroad and five at heme, but if that were carried

into effect it would require a much greater number of men
than the army comprised. The house approved of the report
of the Sanitary Commission, which recommended that in
the dormitories in barracks every soldier ought to have 600

übic feet of air ; but if that were carried into effect it would
entail a large- additional expenditure on barracks. He be-

lieved that the estimates were cut down to the lowest point
consistent with efficiency. He believed that many votes of
arger amount might be asked for, not only without extrava-
gance, but even on the score of economy. A select com-
mittee would have great difficulty in resisting a demand
based on a resolution of the house. He did not think that the
estimates could be much reduced. On the contrary, on the

last two occasions when the estimates had been brought be-

fore them he had complained that they did not provide many
kings that were necessary. Supplementary estimator, ought
to be avoided if possible. They deranged the whole financial
arrangements of the year. The estimates ought to provide
for the service of the year. The first improvement hewould
venture to suggest would be, that the audit of the expendi-

ture should be expedited if possible. They allowed eight
months for the audit of the Admiralty accounts, and 13 for
the army. Considering the facilities of communication that
now existed, he thought that interval might be reduced.
Be that as it might, the accounts ought to be submitted to
a committee of that house. The committee ought to com-
pare the expenditure with the estimates, to see whether the
number of men voted had been actually raised, and whether
any votes had been transferred from one service to another,
s►rid if so, whether the money so transferred had been actu-
ally expended. lie believed that the referring of the ac-
counts to a select committee in that way would lead to ac-

r uracy in the estimates and economy in the expenditure.
What was their present system ? They had the estimates

laid on the table of the house, and the estimates of the for-
mer year to compare them with ; but neither the house nor
the Government knew whether the estimates of the former
year 'were sufficient or insufficient. They had much better
have the estimates of the previous year which had been au-

dited.
Sir G. C. LEWIS—The accounts.
General PEEL said he meant the audited accounts. Bu'
with regard to any account of the expenditure of the money
which they were called upon to vote, that might, if any in-
dustrious or inquisitive member should, two years and a half
hence, say at the end of 1864, search very diligently in the
library, he might then find an audited account of the ex-
enditure of the money voted in 1862. But whatever the
xcess of expenditure might be over the sum voted, or
whatever might have been the transfer from one service to
another, he ventured to say that that hon. member would
never be able to attract the attention of the house to it.
He would be met by supplementary estimates and votes of
credit, or by transfers of money voted from one service to
another, and as the house would not be called upon to vote
any further sum in regard to the expenditure. its atten-
tion could not be attraeted to the subject. It might be
asked what was the use of control over expenditure which
could not be carried into effect till eighteen months :after
the expenditure had taken place. He admitted that it
would have no effect on the expenditure which was taking
-place now, but it would have the greatest possible effect
on the expenditure in the future. The next improve-
ment that he would suggest would be an alteration in the
Appropriation Act as regarded the transfer of votes from
one service to another. At present the heads of depart-
ments were obliged to obtain the sanction of the Treasury ;
but the Chancellor of the Exchequer told them last
year that the Treasury had neither power nor
responsibility in the matter, and that if the money were
there and was required for one service, it was the duty
of the Treasury to sanction the transfer without coming to
the house. He did not mean to say that this power of
transfer might not be necessary in some cases, but he would
leave the power and responsibility with the Secretary of
State or the First Lord of the Admiralty. For example—
if they had got more men than they had money to pay
them with, it might be desirable that a transfer should be
made. But these transfers never took place till just the
end of the financial year when the votes were exhausted.
But Parliament was always sitting at that time, and he
thought the Secretary of State should get the sanction of
Parliament and not of the Treasury for those transfers.
And if Parliament were not sitting he might make the
transfer, but ho would make it imperative on him to report
the circumstance to Parliament when Parliament met. This
of course would only apply to the sums voted for military
and naval purposes. Another improvement he would sug-
gest was, that no service for the past year should be paid
for out of the money voted for the service of the present
year. Nothing was so easy as to obtain the postponement
of the delivering a contract till after the expiration of the
financial year, and then the money that was voted for this
purpose might be applied to another purpose. The noble
lord the Secretary to the Admiralty gave them an instance
the other night. He told them that £50,000 which ought to
have been paid one year became a charge on the next year.
Lord C. PAGET—It was re-voted in the next year.
General PEEL—Exactly. He had known a case not of
£50,000 but of £lOO,OOO, which became a charge on the en-
suing year, and he doubted very much whether they would
have ever heard of this £50,000 if it had not been necessary
for the Government to come down to the house with a sup-
plementary estimate. He did not think any money had
been improperly or extravagantly expended. On the con-
trary, he thought that the large outlay on the military and
naval services had placed those services in a state of effi-
ciency, which was much to the credit of all the departments.
Mr. W. -WILLIAMS said it was remarkable what coin-
cidences occurred between gentlemen in office and gentle-
men who expected to be in office. The right hon. and
gallant general justified the extraordinary expenditure for
the army. The estimates for the present year of the cost of:
the army were to him (Mr. Williams) perfectly incompre-
hensible. They amounted to £15,300,000, and including
the militia the cost would be somewhere about £16,000,000.
Nothing could justify this large expenditure for the army
but a preparation for war. But in the speech from the
throne her Majesty was made to say that her relations with
all foreign countries were peaceable.
Lord R. MONTAGU thought the house ought to be
thankful to the right hon. gentleman (General Peel) and to
the hon. baronet (Sir S. Nerthcote) for having brought the
subject before the house.
Sir G. LEWIS observed, as to what had fallen from the
right hon. gentleman (Gen. Peel), it appeared to him (Sir
G. Lewis) that the check of the house upon the army and
navy estimates was as :nearly perfect as possible. The
speech of the right hon. gentleman had been a sort of epi-
logue to the report of the Committee on Public Moneys,
the great object of which had been to assimilate the prac-
Cce regarding the civil service estimates to that of the army
and nay) . That practice was this—unless the money voted
for any particular object was expended within the year,
the Power to extend it ceased. For example, if the house
fvotedbe-
fore
the lit of April, the power of the War Department to
spend it Was gone, and the money would have to be voted
again. nf
course it was necessary that the house should
grant mousy
and all the upon estimates, but when the year had elapsed,
ents had been made, they became ac-
counts, and rora
the GGvernment Itlhen be audited. The noble lord said that
to re-appoint a eetadrab. "13 guilty of a breach of its promise
bt:t.ee to examine the accounts—but it
was the intention of
move
ecvright hon. friend (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) to
ace the re-appointment of that com-
mittee, and the audited
it. (Hear, hear.) counts could then be referred to
gged
to CANADA,
T h Gipps
Mr. D. GRIFFITH. beFOB,
ask the First Lord of the
Treasury whether the ctovemet
u re
feral_ of Canada, as
oto: there, did not
well as the commander-in-chief of thee
the nd
out a body
apply to the Government last summer
of troops to Canada considerably larger
was actually sent at that time ; and if so, why they did not
au
that which
more fully comply with that requisition p
Sir F. BARING said with regard to the navy and
atimates he thought the house had 'perfect control over
them, if it chose to exert it. And if the gallant general
thought the house had not sufficient control over the ex
penditure, ho hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequerwenii
appoint him a member of the committee. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PAL MERST ON—ln reply to the question put to ma
by the hon. member opposite, I have to confirm what he
stated, namely, that the reinforcements which her Majesty's
Government thought it right to send to the North Ameri-
can provinces in the course of last summer were represented
by hon. gentlemen on the other side of the house as useless
injurious, and improvident, and that they ought never to
have been sent. I believe that opinion is not now very much
entertained. It was the wish of her Majesty's Government
at the time to send a larger number, but so far from that
large number having been asked for by the colonial autho-
rities,on it was in consequence of represontations made by the
wasei forial authorities that the sending of that larger number
owing iethwean-titmoef
suspended. Therefore it was not at all
foresight on the part of her Majesty's
Government that thelarger number was not sent at the
time. But as it happened,I believe, it was rather fortu-

nate that a large number was not sent at that time, because
I think that those who have watched the progress of late
events must have seen that the energy and r idity with
which a very large force was despatched t ) Canada, in
the middle of winter, in spite of all the diffi.2.ulties attend-
ing such a proceeding—that the promptitu le, vigour, and

power displayed by this country—tended v i y greatly to the

peaceful solution of the difficulty which at( se between us

and the United States. (F-ear, hear.)

SUPPLY.—THE ARMY ESTIMATES.
The house then went into Committee of Supply. Mr.
MASSEY in the chair.

Sir G. C. LEWIS rose to introduce the army estimates.
He said, Mr. Massey—Sir, although we enter annually a
constitutional protest against the institution of a standing
army, although we annually recite in our Mutiny Act that
it is contrary to the liberties of this country to maintain a
standing army without the consent of Parliament, still I
think that this must be considered as substantially a con-

stitutional fiction, and we must regard a standing army as
belonging to the permanent institutions of the country, not
less than the navy, and not less than the machinery for the
collection of the revenue. It is true not only that we have
a standing army in substance, but this is one of the most
expensive of the institutions which we maintain, Taking
at present the total expenditure of the country at about
£70,000,000, of which £.:6,200,000 may be referred to the
interest of our debt, the charge for the army alone this year
amounts to £15,302,000. With the militia, it amounts to
£16,250,000 ; leaving for all the other branches of the ex-
penditure a sum of £27,550,000. So that the expense of our
army and militia is about £16,000,000, as compared with
£27,C00,000, the rest of our expenditure, minus the debt.
The committee therefore sees that in voting the army esti-
mates, they deal with a very large portion of that expendi-
ture of the country which ig within the control of Parlia-
ment. It is true, as my hon. friend lately pointed out,
that this expenditure has increased of late years; and in
moving the fist vote of the estimate now on the table, that
vote which contains the number of men, and therefore sub-
stantially determines the character of the whole estimate,
it will be my endeavour, as far as I am able, to furnish the
committee with an answer to this question, why has the
army estimate increased of late years, and why has it
reached the Duni a .0,0,302,000, which is the amount
which it is my duty to ask the house to agree to in the pre-
sent session ? Well, I think I can, without occupying any

unreasonable amount of the time of the committee, fur-
nish them with an answer to that question, and without
troubling them with any great amount of detail in figures;

which are always distasteful to listen to. In order to make
this matter clear to the committee, I will, with their per-

mission, go back to a year as remote as 1789, which was the
year in which the great French Revolution broke out. In
that year the total number of men for the British and Irish
establishments—which were then separate—was 43,395.
The total sum voted for the army, ordnance, and commis-
sariat in that year was £2,981,000. It was £2,428,000 for
Great Britain, and £552,000 for Ireland. Now that was
the whole amount of our army estimates; it was not quite
£3,000,000. That was the whole amount of expenditure for
military purposes in Great Britain and Ireland in the first
year of the French revolution. As the committee knows,
we shortly afterwards embarked in a great war, which
lasted many years, upon which the existence of this nation
depended, in which we carried en a gigantic struggle
against the power of Napoleon, both by land and sea, which
rendered it necessary that the whole of our military organi-
sation should be developed to its utmost, and that all the
nerves of the country should be strained, in order to in-
crease our army to the highest amount which the finances
of the country could bear. lam anxious to call the atten-
tion. of the committee to the effect of that war on the num-
bers and expense of our army. In the year 1819 the number
of men for the army had risen to a little over 80,000, and for
the ordnance to 7,848 ; making a total of 88,682—that is to
say, the number of men rose to about double since 1789. The
total amount of the army estimate, including the ordnance
and commissariat, in the year 1818, was £10,307,000.
Therefore, the number of our army had increased
from 43,000 in the year 1789—we may say in consequence
of this great war—to 88,000 in the year 1818-19, and the ex-
pense of the army had increased from about £3,000,000 to
about £10,000,000. At that amount our army remained
without any substantial alteration until 1831. My hon.
friend read some figures about the year 1830. I will give
a correct statement, including all the items necessary,
for the year 1832. In that year the number of men voted
was 97,949, and the total amount of expenditure was
£8,399,000. That shows no material difference from the
year 1818. Now I come to the year with which I propose to
make my comparisons, which is the year almost immediately
preceding the Crimean war—the year 1852-3. In that year
the number of men was 119,000; the total expenditure was
£9,021,000. I wish the committee to observe that our
tary expenditure underwent a great increase in consequence
of the French war, which began in the year 1792 and ended
in 1815, and then it remained tolerably stationary until the
year preceding the Crimean war. There is no doubt that the
deficiencies in our military system which were disclosed by
the events of that war have led to a considerable increase in
the amount of our army and the expense of our establish-
ments. For instance, the number to be voted in the present
year is 145,000, and the sum to be voted is £15,302,000 as
compared with the figures which I have stated in the yeas
immediately preceding the Crimean war. The lesson which I
think this comparison teaches is, that in the same manner as
the French war led to a great development of our military
system, and showed the deficiency under which our army
then laboured, and thereby produeed a permanent increase
in the charge for the army, so the Crimean war produced a
similar effect, and had led to a permanent increase in the
cost of our military system, both by making a permanent
addition to the strength of the army, and also by rendering
necessary certain additions intended to provide for the effi-
ciency of the army. There is another circumstance to which
I must advert in accounting for the increase of our mili-
tary system since the commencement of the Crimean war
—which is, the change that has taken place in the
political institutions of France ; and all persons, I
think, who are conversant with the sentiments of those
who occupied a prominent place in public affairs during
the first fifteen years of this century will admit that
the predominant object of their policy was, so long
as they had any control over affairs of state, to maintain
and, if possible, to increase the chances of the continuance
of peace. They had lived through a period of most disas-
trous warfare, and the great object of all the statesmen of
that generation, both in this country and on the continent,
was to increase, multiply, and strengthen the securities for
peace, and to contribute to its permanence. But after a
time a generation has grown up which has no personal re-
collection of the French revolutionary war; and, moreover,
the restored dynasty of France was by its origin naturally
attached to a pacific policy. They owed their throne to the
assistance of the other powers of Europe ; their security
was to a great extent to be found in the su; port of the rest
of Europe, and the last thing to be expected was that the
restored Bourbon dynasty of France should revive the wars
of the French empire. But as soon as the Napoleonic
dynasty was restored in France the ideas of the empire
naturally revived. I do not for a moment doubt that the
policy of the present Emperor, as far as that policy depends
on individual wishes and opinions, is essentially a peaceful
policy, and that he is well inclined to maintain a cordial
understanding, with this country. But we must remember
that he lives in the midst of a population which is influ-
enced by the opinions which the restoration of his dynasty
has set in motion ; that such books as the history of M.
Thi rs naturally have great influence in that country, and
that the ideas of restoring tne naturalboundaries of France
as they existed under the restoration and as the empire
found them. may not unnaturally be expected to be
pressed with great force on the Emperor. My own opi-
nion is that we have nothing to fear from ill feeling on
the part of the Emperor of the French towards this coun-
try. (Hear, hear.) My belief is that we have everything
to expect from his good wishes and inclinations ; but we must
bear in mind the circumstances by which he is surrounded,
and a prudent statesman must guard against dangers which
must be admitted to be not without foundation. Looking to
the alteration in the state of Europe, and the great exten•
sion which our military system received during the Crimean
war, I find an explanation of the increase in our military
establishment. I think the committee will not be of opinion
when they come to examine the details of these estimates,
large no doubt as some of the items are, that they are larger
than the interests of the countrydemand. Having attempted
to explain the general foundation of this large estimate, I
will now show that there are certain circumstances which
make the apparent amount larger than the real amount. In
the first place there has been brought into this estimate—
as has been explained before we went into committee—for
the first time a charge for the Indian depots and recruiting
the Indian army. That trharg,e never before appeared in the
estimate, and therefore that increase is apparent, and not
real. The total amount of the repayments which it is Pgti-
mated will be received from the Indian Government in the
course of the year—an amount Which is only estimated,for
we do ,set know the exact figures—is I think about
£1,000,000. A part of that sum has been previously set off
in the shape cf payments for the non-effective service, but
the whole of the payments for the effective service, which
is estimated to amount to £730,000, appears for the first
time as a set off against this sum. Therefore from the
£15,300,000 I have to deduct £730,000, and that leaves
£14,572,000. That sum, the committee will see, is rather
less than the estimate of last year without the supplemen-
tary estimate. But in order to make a fair comparison
with the estimates of last year I must add £35,000 for ad-
ditional expenses to Canada, which will have to be in-
currederei in consequence of the recent expedition, and which
for
Nnedwudzesdalianntdh,isestimate. Then. I l mustt add £170,000
ooouonftorthCahtill.
fins dthiesaom, also notwh includedi:h
lasts
mn
wasas year'sclud
sd in t estimate,he
Fete of credit,
with last That leaves a sum of £14,00,000, which
a fairraust be taken to make the comparison
year
there is a reductio one.i Making these deductions, then,
Therefore, though thenrethi e present estimate of £636,000.
the amount of the yeas. sa large increase compared with
war, it is by no means immediatelyextrav preceding the Crimean
estimate of last year. shealglant as compared with the
amount of men, and first as to tnheeiw distribution, because
r call attention to the
much depends on that. Our army
is
essentially
armies of continental states, which have noforeirh. unlike the
A large part of it is permanently abroad. peossessions.
ea
tear of men created thereby is considerable. Wiwthr regardand
to the Prussian army, for instance, it would be much fairer