The Sun.
London, England, 1862-03-07 00:00:00

C. Lewis) should be most happy to give him his assistance.
The vote was then agreed to,
On the vote of £334,151 for manufacturing ci tablish-
muds, engineering civil establishments, barra.:le masters'
lodging money, rents, &c.,
Sir G. C. LEWIS said he thought he sh ); ld best dis-
charge his duty by offering to the committo : a short state-
ment of the present condition of our manufacturing esta-
blishments. We had at Woolwich a royal gun factory -
there was also at Woolwich a carriage factory, a laboraten
an inspector of artillery's:department, and a chemi
ede-
partment. At Enfield there was an establishmen'f" the
manufacture of small arms ; at Pimlico, a smal'establish-
ment for the repair of arms ; and a similar es"°lialiment at
blishment for
the Tower. At Birmingham we had ans • at Waltham
the examination of contract small . a
Abbey, a factory of gunpowder; at _°;:(tsm'
laboratory, and another at Plyr
I"th The number of
small arms manufactured since 1' " '
there had been issued to the
teers, 501,000 ; to the Inee .
er,
nice, 20,000; making 5
store besides 601,00 P
rendered un.sery
That was as ta 'g
that a greats© of the improvementsouth, a small
vas 1 093 000 Of these
_.y, mtia, navy, and velure-
-ars ervi ce. 192,000 ; to the colo-
th 713,000. There were is
nisi of small arms; and the number
eole from various causes was 22,000.
small arms. The committee were aware
em e had been introduced into iron ordnance
made by Sir W. Arm-
in "inane whole amount appropriated for the manufac-
stronethese guns during the current financial year will
turf:ten £521,000 ; out of which sum 1,489 guns had been
kitructed. Two -thirds of these were of heavy calibre,
o 1 being 100-potieders and 341 40 .pounders. These, with
about 900 guns pr6viously supplied, would make up the
number of nearly 2,400 Armstrong guns. Much interest
had been expressed by the statements as to the failure of
the Armstrong guns; and he (Sir G. C. Lewis) was in a
nosition to say, from all the information he had obtained,
that he was able to give an entire denial to the repre-
sentations which had been made as to the failure of these
guns. (Hear, hear.) If necessary he could lay before
:he committee evidence as to the particular points on which
dissatisfaction had been expressed. But he thought it
better not to trouble the committee by going into de-
tails. Ho might say that everything he had heard
convinced him that the statements made as to the failure of
these guns had been either erroneous or grossly exaggerated,
and that on the whole, with the exception of some small
defects which had been remedied by subsequent experience,
those guns had answered all that was expected of them.
There was also the case of the Whitworth ordnance. Mr.
Whitworth was a very ingenious man, and he professed to
have made certain improvements both in the larger guns
and in the regulation Enfield rifles. There was a discussion
last session on the Whitworth rifle, and the Government
then undertook that the subject should be carefully consi-
dered. A battery of six guns, complete for the field, had
been cast at Woolwich, according to Mr, Whitworth's
pattern, and had been bored by himself. That battery was
intended to be used for the field, and would then be tried by
the experience of actual service. In this manner we should
best arrive at a knowledge of the comparative merits of the
Whitworth ordnance. Then with regard to the Whitworth
rifles, 1,000 Whitworth rifles were to be made at Enfield
according to a pattern supplied by Mr. Whitworth; an in-
fantry regiment was to be armed with them experimen-
tally, and he was to manufacture 500,C00 rounds of ammu-
nition himself at the public expense. He had also permitted
Captain Boxer to manufacture shells and fuses for the
guns. In this manner we should have actual experience both
of his rifles and his heavy ordnance. He (Sir G. C. Lewis)
trusted the committee would see that the Government had
thus redeemed the promise they had given last session.
The manufactories at Woolwich were undoubtedly on a
very large scale, a scale which, although he believed it
was gainful to the public, by reason of the saving thus
made as compared with what would have to be paid to con-
tractors, could only be maintained at a large actual cost to
the country. He might assure the committee at the same
time that the results were important, and that the reserves
at Woolwich were in a very satisfactory condition. A siege
train was in readiness there, consisting of 105 mortars and
750 rounds of ammunition a-piece, which was fitted for
operations against a fortress of the largest class, and might
be shipped in 48 hours. He believed there never was a
time when the country was so well prepared in this respect.
Great exertions also had been made towards the re-arma-
ment of the fortifications ; not only abroad, as at Gibraltar
and Malta, the old ordnance had been replaced by new and
improved guns, but there had been a great addition made to
the ordnance in various parts of the United Kingdom. The
armament of this country had been increased from 2,247
guns to 3,472, and when the committee bore in miad the
expense of these guns, they would be aware that this change
could not be accomplished without a great outlay. It was
also necessary in this estimate to insert a large provision
for gunpowder. The consumption of gunpowder had greatly
increased, chiefly inconsequence of the extent to which expe-
rimental firing was carried on, so much as to make the ex-
pense nearly as heavy as in a year of war. Considerable
improvements had also been made in field artillery, which
in the modern system of war was of great importance. He
thought he had now placed the committee in possession of a
general outline of the vote. He wished he could impress
upon them the conviction which he felt as to the ne-
cessity of the large expenditure they were now making on
these objects ; but he could assure them he thought the
money which was now being voted by Parliament for the
war estimated was being economically applied to the pur-
poses for which it was intended. He was quite aware that
the impression on the public mind was that it was possible
to have an equally efficient,er even amore efficient military
system than the present one, at a diminished expenditure,
by an improvement of our organisation. He had endea-
voured to test the soundness of that -view since he came
into his present office, and he had arrived at this conclusion,
that unless they diminished the numerical strength of the
army, or the military stores, or the provisions made for
the comfort and health of the great bulk of the army, it
would be impossible to make any material reduction in the
amount of the present estimates. Unless the progress of
invention was arrested—if they were to go on constantly
re-arming the troops with a succession of new arm,
new rifles, and new guns, to be discarded three or
fouryears hence, he could not hold out to the committee
any sanguine antieipation of a reduction in this large vote.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that several millions of
money had been laid out on this vote, and it was extremely
doubtful whether these millions had been wisely and pru-
dently laid out. He should like to know what was the whole
cost of these establishments. What means had the right
hon. gentleman of knowing the cost of them ? Who kept
the hocks and accounts, and how were they kept ? The com-
mittee on military organisation, of which the late Sir J.
Graham, the hen, member for Coventry, and the right hon.
member for Huntingdon were members, found fault with
the way in which these accounts were kept, and said that
£40,000 per month was paid away without any general ca-
shier of general paymaster. The money was also placed in
private banks. They recommended that various changes
should be made, and he wished to know what changes
had been made since their report. Mr. Godley, who was
examined before that committee, stated that the system had
been carried too far, and that they did not trust sufficiently
to the efforts of private individuals. The evidence went to
show that there was no balance-sheet in the carriage de-
partment, and he believed Sir B. Hawes had no power of
rejection. Had the right hon. gentleman any means of
knowing the amount of stores and munitions in stock ? The
witnesses were asked over and overagain if they could show
a profit and loss account, and they replied that they could
not, They did not surely want to add stores upon stores,
but having once ascertained what an article could bo pro-
duced for, they should go to the private manufacturer for it.
He believed that this was one of the points in which the
House of Commons could beneficially step in to. reduce ex-
penditure. He did not believe the right hon. gentleman had
more power to stop the expense than he had.
Sir G. C. LEWIS soid the hon. baronet had referred to
the report of the committee on military organisation, but
he ought to have referred to the report of the committee on
the stores depsrtment, which was presented on the 19th of
March, 1861, which was signed by Mr. Anderson, the repre-
sentative of the Treasury, who was an exceedingly acute
accountant. All the points to which the hon. baronet re-
ferred had been rectified according to that report. The in-
quiry into Weedon and Woolwich was quite satisfactory.
Each of the Government manufactories sent in a balance-
sheet for the year, and every other security was taken for
the purpose of seeing that the Government manufactories
were remunerative, and that the system was conducted on
the principle of profit and loss, The plan on which the
Government proceeded was to manufacture one-half the
supply themselves, and to get the other half from private
manufacturers; so that the cost at which the Government
could buy the article would be a check on the Government
manufacture, and the cost at which the Government could
manufacture would be a check on the price of the private
maker. He could only say that hitherto the facts went
to show that the manufacture by Government, as at pre-
sent conducted, was economical, and that the persons em-
ployed acted honestly. The contractors complained that the
Government did not make sufficient allowance for the cost
of plant. No doubt it was difficult to ascertain what was
the precise allowance to be made on that account, but cn
the whole they had reason to believe that the present
system was good. As to the taking of stock the heads of
departments took the most accurate accounts of the stores,
and he never found any difficulty in getting a distinct answer
to any inquiry on that point.
4 mr. ELLICE (Coventry) said that what the hon. baronet
was
stated was perfectly true. The committee of which he
conf usionp.rivl:ttelyt
saueetaber found fault with the mode in which the ac-
counts had been kept, which were in a considerable state of
England and
different also found that the money was kept in
no doubt that an i
paid
dantks instead of being kept in the Bank of
these respects. The improvement
that establishment. But he had
rozeraent had been made since then in
Dixon were kept very
reepartment at Enfield under Colonel
departments they shouldtublea
rIY, but in all the Government
kept that you might ascer-
tain the details both of expeadaZ tur6 and receipt, the amount
of stock; and the cost of the different
ttagizen who had
nleaentuf a c tur ed articles.
Capt. JERVIS said that the
threeti Woolwich
et
been sent down to inquire into the depoe
reported that they had never seen any accounts
re-
gularly and so well. With regard to the carriage dseopart-
ment, to which the hon. baronet referred, it was essential to
the efficiency of the artillery,thatthe carriages should be
well and efficiently made. The materials should be ofthe