The Sun.
London, England, 1862-02-28 00:00:00

ME SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 28, 1862.

evidence against him. He (Lord St. Leonardo) agreed in
1 much that had been said as to medical testimony. It was
' very dangerous to allow theoretical opinions to be applied
to the acts and deeds of any man. But medical testimony,
properly su called, as to matters of fast, could not be
excluded ; and the difficulty was to draw the line, and to
say to what point scientific evidence should be allowed to
go. With respect to small interests, relief was afforded by
the bill of 1853, and the present proposal was an extension of
the provisions of that measure. His noble and learned friend
was of opinion that it was necessary to make a greater de-
mand upon the time of the legal and medical visitors, and
he (Lord St. Leonards) would be the last to offer an objec-
tion. Having taken much interest in the subject, he offered
these observations, and would give the measure, before it
again came before their lordships, his best consideration.
Lord uRANWORTH said that the subject was one of
such importance that it would be impossible safely to form
a conclusive opinion as to it before the details of the mea-
sure were before their lordships. With respeet to medical
testimony he thought it could not tie eichltltd. A non-itrcifee-
sional man might converse for hours with a lunatic, and
leave him with the conviction that he was sane ; whereas a
medical man in a very short time would be likely to find
out the point as to which the person was of unsound mind.
The evil was this, that if the trial was presided over by a
judge not competent—and he did not for a moment say—it
would be far from truth if he did say—that such was the
case at the recent trial : on the contrary, he thought that
the eminent person who presided discharged his duty emi-
nently well; the evil was, that unless the judge was very
much on his guard he might, perhaps, lead the jury to give
too much weight to testimony, which nevertheless, in point
of principle, should be admitted. Without meaning any
disrespect to the masters in lunacy, he thought that one of
the ordinary judges would in this respect be better qualified
to conduct such a trial. He (Lord GI anworth) agreed with
what had been stated by the noble and learned lord opposite
as to the proposed limitation of the inquiry. The circum.
stances fully justified his noble and learned friend the Lord
Chancellor in introducing a measure to amend the law. In
so doing, he cast no reflection upon the noble and learned
lord who had just spoken, of whose bill of 1853 it was but
justice to say that it was one of the greatest improvements
ever introduced into the law. (Hear.)
Lord CHELMSFORD was glad that his noble and
learned friend the Lord Chancellor had taken the import-
ant and extremely difficult subject wi, h which he proposed
to deal in hand. It was not, however, desirable to enter
into a consideration of it until the bill was laid upon the
table. The circumstances connected with the recent inves-
tigation very naturally called attention to the state of the
law. He did not think that much advantage would be
gained by changing the tribunal front the master in lunacy
to one of the judges of the superior courts. He dif-
fered from the noble and learned lord (Lord St. Leo-
nerds) as to the period for examining a supposed
lunatic—being of opinion that the petitioner ought in no
case to be allowed to close his case without presenting the
alleged lunatic for examination. Doing so would not shut
out such evidence in his favour as should be offered ; but
it might have the effect of rendering such evidence
unnecessary and thus save much time and expense. How
could a judge of one of the superior courts prevent the
expense which occurred in such a case ? He might no
doubt have more authority over the counsel than the
master in lunacy, but it was impossible for him to check
either the amount of evidence which might be given on the
one side or the other, or the speeches of counsel. It con-
stantly happened that the examination had to be conducted
at the residence of the alleged lunatic, but it would be
difficult to select a proper place of trial if the judge was to
be a judge of one of the superior courts. He believed the
place of trial was selected at present by either the Lord
Chancellor or the master in lunacy. A preliminary
inquiry first took place, and then a commission
was ordered by the Lords Justices, who, upon application
made to them, 'aright quash the whole of the proceedings,
and direct a new inquiry if they so thought fit. An act had
been recently passed empowering the equity judges to
dispose of every question of fact and of law, and to sum-
mon a jury if necessary. But that act was permissive, and
not compulsory. He believed that in a little time their
lordships would have a bill before them making it
compulsory on the equity judges to dispose of every ques-
tion of fact and of law. If that bill became law, he saw no
reason why the Lords Justices, who directed the cammis-
sion, should not themselves undertake the trial. If they
tried the case it would be final, and a great deal of expense
would be saved to the parties. He threw out this sugges-
tion to his noble and learned friend as one which seemed to
him to be deserving of consideration. He thought it would
be difficult to limit the time to which the inquiry was to re-
fer, or the evidence of the medical witnesses. It was no
uncommon thing to see medical men of the highest charac-
ter giving opinions of a totally different kind, but this was
also the case with regard to the evidence of surveyors, with
regard to the evidence in patent cases, collisions at sea, and
others of a like nature. He would only say that he was
anxious to give his noble and learned friend all the assist-
ance in his power to render the bill as perfect as possible,
but it would require the most careful consideration. (Hear.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he was anxious that
all matters of fact should be diligently inquired into, and
as to matters of fact the testimony of medical witnesses
would be most valuable, and deserve the highest considera-
tion. But he wished to exclude opinions and conclusions
of opinions which could not properly be called testimony
at all. Let not the medical profession suppose that he
meant to cast any slur upon them, because it was most
usual for men to hold different views on questions of un-
settled science.
The bill was then read a first time.

Their lordships adjourned at a quarter past 7.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
NEW MEMBERS.

Mr. BERKELEY and Mr. POWELL took the oaths and
their seats for Gloucester.
HULL SOUTH BRIDGE BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
IRISH POOR-LAW.

Petitions were presented from the inhabitants of Dublin,
and other parts of Ireland, for an amendment of the Irish
Poor Law.

NEW WRIT.

On the motion of Mr.I,VIIITMORE, a writ was ordered
to issue for the election of a member for the city of Canter-
bury, in the room of Mr. Butler Johnstone, who had
accepted the Stewatdship of the Chiltern Hundreds.

THE WHIPPING BILL.

In reply to Mr. HUNT,

Sir G. GREY said that it had been stated erroneously
in a return on the subject that a boy of three years had
been flogged in one of the Irisons, whereas it should have
been a boy of 13 years old.
WESTMINSTER, BRIDGE, &c.

Mr. HANKEY asked the First Commissioner of Works
when Westminster-bridge would be completely open for
public use, and when the houses on the south side of Bridge-
street would be removed ? and whet her there is any objec-
tion to a carr:age entrance from the foot of Westminster-
bridge to the House of Commons ?

Mr. COWPER. said that judging from the present state
of the w.rlts of Westminster-bridge there was every reason
to suppose that the bridge would be open to the public
early in May next. The houses on the south side of the
bridge were to be pulled down as they came into the pos-
session of the Board of Works. With respect to the third
question, there could be no objection to carriages going
direct from the foot of Westminster-bridge to Palace-yari.
MEDICAL OFFICERS OF THE INDIAN ARMY.
Mr. BAZLEY asked the Secretary of State for India
when his promise to place the medical officers of her Ma-
jesty's Indian army upon a perfect footing of equality with
the medical officers of her Majesty's British army would be
carried into effect ?

Sir C. WOOD repeated the answer he had given on a
previous occasion, which was to the effect that it would be
impossible to place the medical officers of the Indian army
on the same footing as those of the British army.
REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS, DEATHS, AND

how far the re3ommendation of the coramittee which sat in
reference to this departmenthadbeen carried out. He conten-
ded it was more important that economy, consistent with
efficiency, should be regarded in the department of the
public service, and proposed with a view to obtaining in-
formation that the vote should be reduced by £2,550, the
salaries of certain officers whose appointments appeared
to require some explanation.

Sir F. SMITH supported the motion of the hon. member.

Mr. 'WILLIAMS said the vote for the naval service ex-
ceeded that of last year by £9,000, and referred to the sub-
ject of flogging in the navy.
The SPEAKER decided that the hon. member was out
of order in going into the latter subject on the present

occasion.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY contended that alterations
reqUired in the tonstittftion of the Admiralty in order to
secure for it a greater amount of efficienty.
Mr. A. SMITH said that during the Crimean war the
vote was only £140,000, but it had since grown by no less
than £35,000. dive years ago the number of persons em-
ployed Was 2701 whereas it was now 422. Ten years back
it was only 235, so that ill that shout period it had nearly
doubled.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said that if the hon. gentleman
bad coilipared, not the estitilateej hut the expenditure at
the period he had named, the discrepancy deottld appear to
be even alarger; for the votes had been exceeded by .g 5,090
or £6,000 a year. The position of the 'temporal-Yr clerks had
been under the consideration of the late Governuient, and
since the accession of the noble viscount to office, the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had referred the subject to a com-
mittee of which he (Sir S. Northcote) was a Member, The
idea which suggested itself to these gentlemen was, that it
would be possible to establish a central department which
might be described as a sort of government law stationers'
office, where a number of clerks might be registered, and
be in readiness to be employed in other departments as
might be found necessary. He trusted this proposal would
receive the actention of the Government.
Sir J. PARINGTON said he thought those hon. gen-
tlemen who had objected to these additional appointments
did not sufficiently take into account the increased amount
of work to be done. With regard to the acting construc-
tor and deputy accountant-general, his belief was that
the noble lord was justified in asking for this assist-
ance. The office of deputy accountant-general he
(Sir J. Pakington) believed to be one imperatively,
needed. It was well known that the health of the ac-
countant-general had broken down under the pressure of
accumulating business, especially since the late changes
and increased activity in the Admiralty department. The
right hon. baronet concluded by saying the only item ho
felt any difficulty about was that of £2,000 for the appoint-
ment of an officer to control the transport service.
Mr. LAIRD said it was with great satisfaction he heard
that the accountant-general's staff was about to be added
to, and without such assistance he could not conceive how
the business was carried through. Especially if the new
system of keeping the accounts was persevered in, he ima-
gined that at least double the number of clerks would be
require.. He felt satisfied that vessels built in the Govern.
ment yards were constructed very often at a much less ex•
pense than in the private yards. This was a tact within
his own knowledge, and he thought it was not well that
the house and the country should be led to believe that
ships built in the royal yards cost one-third, or 60 per cent.
more than they were really built for, (Hear, hear.)
Lord C. PAGET said he was very glad to hear the voice
of his hon. friend the member for Birkenhead in the house
—(hear, hear)—and he trusted his hon. friend would often
give them the benefit of his experienced assistance on these
occasions. (Hear, hear.) If his hon. friend the member
for Sunderland (Mr. Lindsay) had been in his place on
Monday, he must have heard him (Lord C. Paget) say dis-
tinctly what was going on in the dockyards as to the recti-
fication of the accounts. He would not t•ouble the com-
mittee with a repetition of that statement—(hear, hear).—
but he might say generally, that the accountant-general ex-
pressed his expectation of being able to render the general
accounts as perfect as the personal accounts of the seamen,
His hon. friend said he disapproved of the deputy account-
ant-general, He (Lord C. Paget) could assure his hon.
friend and other hon. gentlemen, that the accountant-
general could not do the work that was assigned
to hint. No amount of labour would enable a man to get
through it. It was simply impossible for a man to be in the
dockyards and to be at Somerset-house at one and the same
time. His hon. friend objected also to the cost of an acting
constructor. The same argument was applicable to this
office—that it was impossible to be at the dockyards and at
Whitehall at the same time. His (Lord C. Paget's) opinion
was that both these appointments were absolutely necessary.
As to the appointment of the chief clerk, which was com-
plained of, he believed it was more a matter of rank than
emolument, he being in fact only an additional first-class
clerk. His hon. friend the member for Evesham (Sir H.
Willoughby) asked what was the responsibility of the lords
of the Admiralty—was it individual or general ? Well, this
was a very large question. He assured his hon. friend that
it had met with very great consideration from the Duke of
Somerset, and he believed the duke had, as far as possible,
given a different responsibility to each lord. As to the com-
munications between the clerks and the lords of the Admi-
ralty, he might say that by bringing the departments toge-
ther they expected to make the communications between the
heads of each branch of the Admiralty and the clerks more
constant, thereby aiding the efficiency of all branches. The
committee must see that whilst the board sat Whitehall
and the clerks at Somerset-house,' there was not that fre-
quent and rapid communication which was desirable. But
even now a much more defined responsibility had been la d
down, and greater control was given over each branch.
An inquiry had been made as to the probationary clerks
for the Navy. They arose in this way. Several youths
were appointed on board each ship to keep accounts,
and these youths had been directed to undergo a course
of instruction under the Accountant-General in order to
qualify th m for this duty. With regard to the
permanent clerks, it had hitherto been the custom—and he
thought a bad custom—that the permanent clerkships at
the Admiralty should be looked upon as a distinct class of
permanent clerks. The Duke of Somerset had thought it
more fair that a limited system of competition should be in-
troduced. So that whenever a vacancy occurs, he sends up
these young gentlemen to compete for a temporary clerk-
ship; and then the temporary clerks fell into the vacancies
as they occurred among the permanent clerkships. In con-
clusion, the noble lord begged his hon. friend not to press
his motion to a division.
Sir M. PETO wished the noble lard to tell the committee
which had been the previous practice and course of educa-
tion and what was the standing of the gentleman who was
to be appointed acting constructor. He wished to know it
it was not true that Sir Baldwin Walker ordered every plate
on the Warrior to be plugged, the effect of which was, first,
that it weakened the vessel immensely by reducing the
thickness of the plates, and running th m into each other?
and, secondly, that if a plate were injured, it became neces-
sary to remove a whole series of plates in order to replace
that which was injured.
Mr. BEN FINCH observed that retrenchment was not
always economy, and that the sums which hau been wasted
in so-called economy were perfectly frightful. Nothing was
more dangerous at sea than being short-handed; and he
thought that his hon. friend the member for Evesham had
touched the true point when he made the remarks he had
upon responsibility. He nevertheless should support these
estimates,
Sir F. BARING said that retrenchment was not always
economy ; expense was not always efficiency—(hear, hear)
—and the losses arising from the latter source might surely
be expected to outweigh those arising from mistaken re •
trenchment. He could not but express his satisfaction at
the explanatiors which had fallen from his noble friend
below him, He believed the increased expense;in keeping
the accounts would be amply compensated for by the addi-
tional efficiency.
Admiral WALCOTT said he approved of the present
form of taking the estimates, and he gave his full support
to the increased distribution of money.
Mr. WHITBREAD defended the present mode of pay-
ment by the Accountant-General, and the system of check-
ing the expenditure. The great bulk of the money voted
annually was spen in wages to seamen, marines, officers
and workmen in the yards at authorised rates, and the Ac-
countant-General's responsibility ceased when those rates
were strictly complied with.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said the portion of the expen-
diture which seemed to him to have no responsibility at-
tached toit was that relating to materials in the dockyards.
The question of wages was plain sailing enough. He
thought explanation was required with respect to the pro.
posed increase of £2,000 for the salaries of the new heads of
the transport board.
Lord C. PAGET explained that the appointments were
in conformity with the recommendation of the transport
committee of last year. He believed that ultimately this
department would embrace the transport of troops to India
but at present it would confine its operations to the trans-
ports of troops to all our other colonies. He was strongly
in favour of a permanent transport service.
In reply to Sir M. PETO,
Lord C. PAGET said the name of the officer to be ap-
pointed was Abethell, one of the master shipwrights. He
had not been employed in building iron vessels, but ho was
a man of much intelligence, and capable of giving an opi-
nion as to the grooving of the plates of the Warrior.
After a few words from Mr. CORRY and Sir J. ELPHIN-
STONE,
Mr, LINDSAY moved the reduction of the vote by
£2,550,
The committee divided—
For the amendment
Against it
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was £297,602 for the Coast Guard, the Royal
Naval Coast Volunteers, and the Royal Naval Reserve.
Sir M. SEY,M OUR asked whether the seamen of Guern-
sey and Jersey would have the same opportunity for en-
listing in the Naval Reserve as English seamen.
Mr. LINDSAY bore strong testimony to the valuable
services of the shipping masters at the different ports in
organising the naval reserves, and suggested that they
should receive at least some honorary distinction
in that
farce.
Mr. LAIRD thought a large body of able seamen might
be obtained for the reserve if it were opened to boatmen,

lightermen, and others engaged on shore, who were ready
to serve, but objected to go on foreign service.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said the shipping masters were
not entitled to all the credit for the present position of the
naval reserve, because part of it was due to the naval offi-
cers with whom they were associated in the work.
Alderman SALOMONS asked whether commissions in
the royal service would be given to officers of the mercan-
tile marine in connexion with the naval reserve.
Lord C. PAGET said the Admiralty had made a com-
mencement in appointing officers of the merchant service
to commissions in connexion with the naval reserve. The
gentleman whose commission was first signed was Captain
Judkins, who c,,mmanded the steamer which successfully
conveyed the Guards up the St. Lawrence. (Hear, hear.)
He had passed the years for entering active service, but he
had been made an honorary lieutenant. The £5,000 in the
estimates for all iwances to lieutenants and sub-lieutenants
was given to them, not as pay, but to reimburse them for
travelling expenses. When away from home undergoing
instructions lieutenants would receive 10s. a day,
and the sub-lieutenants 65. With regard to the
shipping masters, the Admiralty were perfectly well aware
of their great merits, and the zeal which they evinced in
carrying out the scheme. He did not go so far as to give
them the entire credit, because there were others who de-
served equal credit., viz., Captain Brown, registrar general
of seamen, who, he might say, was entitled to more credit
almost than any one else—(hear, hear)—and secondly, the
ntrval officers of the different depots. A. new scale of pay
had been arranged between the Admiralty and the Board of
Trade in regard tO shipping masters ; and be had also to
state that they were no longer shipping masters, but deputy
registrars of the royal navy. Henceforth hon. members
would he good enough to call them deputy registrars of the
royal naval reserve. They would be paid upon a scale esta-
blished by the Board of Trade, and according to the number
of men they enlisted, and the amount of correspondence
they had to Undertake in relation to the force. At the
principal stations a very substantial addition had been made
to their allowances. Out of the 10,000 men of the naval
reserve, the number immediately availablaj according to
the last return, up to the 31st of December last, there were
6.69 on long voyages, 2,359 on shoat voyages, and on coast-
ing and home service 4,756 ; but since that date the force
had considerably increased. With regard to the seamen of
Guernsey and Jersey, the noble lord said they had as good
a claim to enter the service as those of England, and several
of them had already been enrolled.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was £68,045 for the scientific department.
Mr. A. SMITH asked if there were any objection to give
a return of the charts published in the last ten years.
Sir F. SMITH said the Ordnance Survey department
issued every year a chart showing the progress of the survey.
He thought the same thing might be done with regard to
the survey of the coast. He thought that the astronomer
royal and his assistants were not sufficiently remunerated.
Lord C. PAGET said he did not think it would be a very
easy thing to make an index of all the charts in the world ;
but it would be easy to give an index of the charts already
published. With regard to the astronomer-royal and his
assistants, the Admiralty had improved the position of
some of his assistants.

The vote was then agreed b.
The next vote was £176,624, for her Majesty's establish.
ments at home.

Mr. LINDSAY said they had almost ceased building
wooden ships except of a small size, but the master ship-
wrights were paid £650 a year each, while the master smiths,
who had to superintend the repair of ironships, were paid
only £250. He thought that the salaries of the master
smiths ought to be increased, and that the salaries of future
master shipwrights should be decreased.
Sir F. SMITH concurred in the opinion that the salaries
of the master smiths ought to be increased, but he did not
think that the salaries of the master shipwrights ought to
be decreased.

The vote was agreed to.
£33,610 was proposed for her Majesty's establishments
abroad.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS observed that there was a great
disproportion between the number of superintendents at
Malta and the number of men superintended. There was
a very small number of men, and the superintendents had
little cr nothing to do.

Lord C. PAGET said Malta was a great central depot
for stores, and on that account more superintendence was
required in proportion than in other dockyards.

The ' ote was agreed to.
£1,147,678 was proposed for the wages of artificers in her
Majesty's establishments at home.
Sir F. SMITH drew attention to the fact that the wages
of the land surveyors were the same as they were 13 years
ago, while those of all ether artificers had been raised.
Sir H. 'WILLOUGHBY said a return, No. 44, had been
issued from the Admiralty-office, professing to give the
cost of building ships, and of particular ships, and he asked
if the figures in that return were to be relied upon, and
could be used in discussions in that house.

Lord C. PAGET observed that the hon. gentleman
having been a member of the Dockyard Committee knew
very well what the defect of the present system of accounts
was. The defect was that there were sums attributed to
one service which ought to be attributed to another. He
believed the figures of this account were correct, but if they
looked into them for the cost of a particular ship there were
other items which must be added. He believed the next
years' return would contain the most precise and accurate
information with respect to the cost of every one of her
Majesty's ships.
The vote was then agreed to; as was also a .vote of
£66,801 for wages of artificers abroad,
Upon the next vote of £1,744,184 for naval stores, for the
building, repair, and outfit of the fleet,

Captain JERVIS asked what steps had been taken by
the Admiralty to remedy the evils complained of by the
chief engineer of Chatham Dockyard before the Dockyard
Inquiry Committee, respecting the deteriorated quality of
copper obtained for copper sheathing in the navy.
Sir M. PETO begged to inquire whether the wood for
which a vote was taken was intended for the building of the
smaller classes of vessels

Lord C. PAGET said that the wood for which the vote
was taken was undoubtedly intended for the building of
corvettes, gunboats, and the smaller claQses of vessels. For
those vessels he believed that no substitute had yet been
found for wood. No one could be more alive to the impor-
tant advantages which in some respects iron offered to the
shipbuilder ; but it must not be forgotten that the conditions
of service in the mercantile marine and in the royal navy
were wholly different. The vessels of her Majesty had to
go into every part of the world, and some of them had to
,remain abroad for three or four years; but in a very few
months the bottom of an iron ship became so encrusted
with barnacles that she would neither sail nor steer, and, in
short, she became wholly use'ess. He did not say that a
remedy could never be found for this. Un the contrary, he
thought that one would be some day found ; but until then
it would, be idle to suppose that copper-bottomed ships
could be dispensed with, unless, indeed, we established dock-
yards in every part of the world. (Hear.) As to the iron-
cased wooden vessels he was willing to admit that they
weuld not be so strong as iron ones ; but every possible
means had been taken to make them as strong as possible.
It must be remembered that it was a question of time. Other
I nations we, e casing their vessels, and it would not be pru-
dent for this country to wait until we could build a proper
number of iron ones. As to the deterioration of the cop-
per used in the royal navy, he had to remark that the
metal showed very different qualities. Some of it
lasted a very little time, whereas some of it
stood remarkably well ; and it was a singular fact that the
purest did not answer by any means the best. Under these
circumstances the Admiralty had submittell specimens of
the different kinds to a gentleman at the Museum of Eco-
nomic Geology ; and they were waiting for a report on the
subject. The Government did not, however, propose to
establish smelting works of their own. If they were to do
so, he supposed that the next preposition would be that
they should purchase a mine or two. (Laughter.) As to
rolled and hammered iron, the aggregate of the experiments
showed that the former had, if anything, the best of it,
though undoubtedly a single hammered plate which had
been prepared by the Thames Iron Shipping Company had
shown a great superiority over all others. The Admiralty
used the greatest care in choosing plates. Their rule was to
select one of each lot which was tendered to them. If it
stood the test, they took the whole ; and if not, they re-
jected them. His hon. friend had perhaps been misled by
the experiment which was made last year at Shoeburyness
upon a target representing a section of the Warrior's side.
This target very successfully resisted the shower of projec-
tiles which were hurled against it; and it was made of
hammered iron, but that did not prove that rolled iron
would have failed. (Hear, hear.) The cost of the two
modes of preparing the plates was about equal. With re-
gard to the contractors, there had been only one failure,
that of the Valiant. The contractor for that ship pleaded
his case in forma pauperis, and he said, in short, that in
the pecuniary difficulties in which he found himself involved
he could not go on with the vessel. Under these circum-
stances the obvious duty of the Government was to adopt
the best mode in their power of finishing the work as
quickly as possible. They, therefore, made the contractor
an allowance for the work he had done, and placed the ship
p sh
in other hands. It was quite true that there been
several several partial failures—that was because
e-
but the Ad-
miralty contractors
d
had not delivered the vessels in proper
ti
rniralty were satisfied that they had exerted themselves
knew what it
do; themselves to
the utmost. The truth was that they
ha
was they were undertaking to a fact that was proved
by the increased price which was afterwards charged for the
same kind of work. In the first instance therefore, the Ad-
miralty did not indict the fullf
penalty,
,butpenntiowlt
penalties
warnedhaving
the contractors that, for the
been reduced, would be enforced in every case. His hon.
friend had also adverted to Alt. Trottnah, s anchors. He
(Lord Paget) had not heard that Mr. Tmtman had been re-
fused the extra test at Woolwich, but this he knew, that
seven months since he had ordered one of the anchors, and
it had not been supplied yet. (A laugh.)
Sir M. PETO—The noble lord had told them that he
could not as yet see his way to the use of iron vessels.
What he wanted to press on the Admiralty was, that, they
should n t continue building wooden vessels, but that the
noble lord should pledge, himself to a careful inquiry into ,
the comparative merits of the two materials before he built ,
any more of these vessels, lie did not contemplate armour ,

- r

plates, but iron vessels of plates, which Sir Howard
Douglas had said were sufficiently strong to resist shell.
Mr. LIND -AY said that his own exper;ence as a ship-
owner enabled him to pronounce in favour of iron vessels.
He had found no difficulty in cleaning bottoms abroad with
vessels of from 1,000 to 1,500 tons, nor did he believe there
was any difficulty in China or in Mexico. There were in
fact docks everywhere large enough for ordinary vessels.
With regard to the durability of iron, vessels of that
material which had been built 10 years ago were now, when
stripped, as perfect as on the first day, whilst he would be
terrified to strip a wooden ship at the end of that time. He
should expect the dry rot, and sfiould be glad to close her
up and sell her as soon as possible. With respect to the
vote for timber, the average for years had been £400,000.
Last year they had granted £940,000, which the noble lord
said was necessity to replenish the stock. Now, however,
the stock had been replenished, and his noble friend asked
for £560,000. Why, he asked, take £160,000 more than
the average ? He (Mr. Lindsay) thought he should not be
asking too much in proposing that the vote should be re-
duced by £lOO,OOO, which would still leave the vote £60,000
in excess. He proposed, then, that £lOO,OOO be struck off
the vote.

The committee divided, and the numbers were—
For the amendment 2l
Against

The amendment was consequently lost, and the vote of
£1,744,184 for naval stores was agreed to.
On the vote of £1,453,561 for steam machinery,
Captain JERVIS said it became a serious question as to
how many of these iron ships were to be built. it was now
clearly shown that a smaller armament was as efficient as a
much larger one under the old system ; so that 1,500 lbs of
iron in a broadside was as effective as 1,700 lbs were beforo.
The experiments at Eastbourne showed that the Armstrong
gun was three-fold as powerful as the smooth bore, so that a
vessel carrying 10 guns was now equal to an old ship carrying
30. As for the efficiency of iron, it was impossible to compare
the years 1843 and 1862. In 1843 iron was used in order to
get as cheap a material as possible ; but since then artillery
had improved, and now iron was necessary, cost what it
might. He wished to ask what would be the cost of the
three great iron vessels now building
Lord C. PAGET said he would rather defer answering
the question till next year—(a laugh)—when the official
returns would be made.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of £464,170 for new works, alterations, and

repairs,
Mr. LINDSAY asked what was the object of the £48,000
additional amount for new machinery ?
Mr. WHITBREAD said that at five of the yards one of
these vessels was building. The excess was for machinery
used for building, iron plates, and other works in connexion
with the construction of the vessels.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE asked the noble lord whether
the dredging operations hitherto carried on at Portsmouth
harbour had not produced three feet more of water than
before an the bar; whether line-of-battle ships could
not go in and out of the harbour at any time during this
winter; whether the Defence last Saturday did not pass in
there drawing one foot of water less than the Warrior, at
dead neap tide; whether Portsmouth harbour was not ac-
cessible any day of the year to ships of the line at high
water ; and whether, after the expenditure of this £lO,OOO,
any ship would not be able to go in and out two hours be-
fore and after high water and neap tides ?
Mr. BENTINCK asked whether any vote would be pro-
posed for facilitating the coaling of men-of-war at Ply-
mouth Sound ?
Mr. LAIRD said that a committee had reported last
year in favour of improving and enlarging the graving dock
at Chatham, so as to render it suitable for iron vessels
of the new build. He wondered that a larger sum than
£20,000 or £30,000 had been taken for this purpose.
Mr. CORRY said it had been stated that the water at
Portsmouth was so shallow that large ships at the present
day could not enter. He believed that in the course of the
last two years, at the cost of £28,000, the height of water in
the bar had been increased to 30 feet high water at spring
tides. This was quite sufficient o admi' the largest iron
ship in the navy. Thus the Duke of Wellington drew one
foot more than the Warrior, and the Agincourt, the largest
ship in the navy, when launched, he believed would be
about the same. When he held the office of Under Secre-
tary to the Admiralty in Sir R. Peel's Government from
1841 to 1844, it was proposed to make two docks 400 ft. long
at Portsmouth and Birkenhead, but that plan was unfortu-
nately abandoned by their successors. Until the other day
they had not a single dock that would admit the Warrior.
At Cherbourg there were seven docks drawing 27ft. of water
over the sill. At Por smooth there was only one such dock,
and he earnestly begged the attention of the noble viscount,
the Premier, to this subject. He should beg lad to see larger
docks and basins provided at Portsmouth, and he thought
that the expenditure of £lOO,OOO would not be too mue h
outlay for the purpose. He hoped the Government would
give increased attention to this important subject.
Mr. WHITBREAD said the average depth of water over
the bar at Portsmouth was nearly five feet. So far as their
present information went, it appeared that it was lessening
a little in depth on the western side and increasing on the
eastern side. But fresh soundings would be taken in the
month of April, and if they were satisfactory the Govern-
ment would proceed with their operations. Sums of money
were taken in the estimates for increasing the size of the
North Inlet Dock, and No. 8 dock at Portsmouth, and they
would in about two years be large enough to contain the
largest class of iron ships. They would have at Devonport
another dock capable of holding the largest class of ships ;
and at Chatham they would also have one such dock,
making in all four decks which would be large enough to
holdships of the largest size. In answer to the question of
the hon. member for Birkenhead he would state that the
sum of £20,000 put down in the estimates did not represent
all the work done in the excavation going on for the large
docks, as much of it was done by convicts. To the question
put by the hon. member for Norfolk he would say that the
matter of coaling the ships was one of serious consideration,
for he was quite aware that great difficulties stood in the
way of coaling ships rapidly. Whether the ships could not
be coaled from two barges as quickly as from a jetty was a
question which the Government would not lose sight of.
The vote was then agreed to, as were also the following
votes :
£66,000 for medicine and medical stores.
£98,708 for miscellaneous services.
£702,308 for half-pay and reserved half-pay to officers of
the navy and Royal Marines.
£481,026 for military pensions and allowances ; and
£194,282 for civil pensions and allowances.
On the vote of £188,650 for the conveyance of troops for
the army department of the service,
Mr. BENTINCK inquired who would be responsible for
damage to the machinery of a transport on her voyage to a
foreign port with troops, or for any injury sustained by the
vessel while landing troops under fire. He was of opinion
that if a large number of transport ships were kept by the
Government it would greatly conduce to the benefit of the
service and of the public.
Mr. LIN SAY thought that in the cases referred to the
Government would be bound to make good the damage.
(Hear, Lear.) It was sound policy to keep as many troop
ships as would be required in time of peace ; and in time of
war to depend on the merchant service.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE considered that the Govern-
ment should have ten good troop ships at least. They
could then send troops to India for £l5 per man, whereas
the cost in hired transports of sending troops to Canada
was £l6 per man.
The house then resumed, and Mr. MASSEY reported
progreis.
INDIA STOCK TRANSFER BILL.
The SPEAKER again left the chair, and the India Stock
Transfer Bill passed through committee.
COMMISSIONS IN THE ARMY, &c.
The house having resumed,
Sir G. C. LEWIS moved for leave to bring in a bill to
enable her Majesty to issue commissions to the officers of
the land forces and Royal Marines, and to adjutants and
quartermasters of he Majesty's militia and volunteer forces,
without affixing her royal sign manual thereto. He said
the house might not be aware of the precise form which is
now adopted with respect to the commissions of military
officers. In every case, whether of a commission to an offi-
cer or the promotion of an officer, a submission was made
to the Queen by the Commander-in-Chief, who sent for-
ward the name of the officer, and the rank in the army it
was proposed he should hold. If her Majesty approved of
the name submitted to her, she signed her name at the tope
of the submission paper, and also signed the direction at the
bottom of the paper to the Secretary of State to prepare the
commission. The document was re turned to the Common-
st ehnet
sbeye
I trheitma7to
othf.estlVt
ea rt-o lao ffi
rcee:
de
rt-hi ne
be-Chief,cam u le
tdh ew ass
dutyenot f
ipna rt eh
et the
paper.commission
ea ee
eic our, di gentorat
in hne directionsnhearmy
the m
t
n containedaan deof certain
powers the
Queen, who granted a certain rank
to the officers named in the body of it. The com-
mission was sent with the name of the officer filled in by the
Secretary of State to the Queen,and her .11.1 ajesty then wrote
her name at the top of the document. It was countersigned
by the Secretary of State, and was then complete. The
house would therefore see that, in order to enable an officer
to obtain a commission in the army, it was necessary that
her Majesty should sign her name three times over. That
applied to all the land forces, and in the same way the
Queen signed all the commissions in the navy. The com-
missions of the adjutant-general and quartermaster-general
in the militia were prepared in a similar manner. The whole
of the European-Indian army having been brought upon the
home establishment, all these—to the number of about
6,000, besides some hundreds in the storekeeper's depart-
ment—would, according to the present practice, require the
signature of the Queen. The repetition of these signatures
produced no practical security; the obtaining the assent of
the Crown to the list of names laid before her Majesty, to
which the sign manual was attached, being sufficient.
There was no advantage therefore in pressing on the Queen,
under existing circumstances, what was a mechanicallabour.
The object of the measure therefore was that power should
be given to the Queen in Council to find what classes of
military and other commissions should be attested by the
signature of the Commander-in-Chief and the Secretary of
War, without the sign manual of the Queen being attached
to the body of the commission itself. That was the whole
object of the bill, and he hoped it would meet with the
general approval of the house. (Hear.)
Sir J, PAKINGTON said he should hot oppose the bill,

but he should reserve his opinion. as to whelber the house
was not assuming unnecessarily the pr ere igatives of the
Crown.
Mr. HENNESSY thought the Crown 114 'ready possessed
the power which the bill proposed to give.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that '; they followel
precedent in proposing the present mode of dealing with the
question.
Major PARKER said that under the old system the offi-
cers of the Indian army were appointed Nvithouot the sign
manual of the Crown.
The motion was then agreed to.
ARTISTIC COPYRIGHT.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, in moving for leave to
bring in a bill to amend the law relating to copyright in
works of art, said that at present there existod a copyright
in books, in dramatic works, and certain desig, Is. But with
regard to the fine arts, there was the act of 1735, which
granted copyright to engravings, although it g - ve no pro-
tection to the pictures from which those engravings were
made. That act was passed at the instance of the cele,
brated Hogarth. Another act gave copyright in scalleturest
models, and casts, and for the same period as engravings'
That was the extent to which the fine arts were at present
protected in this country, and in that respect England stood
alone, at least amongst civilised nations, France, Prussia,
Belgium, and even Spain, giving protection to pictures and
paintings. He did not ask the house to go to the extent of
giving a perpetual copyright, as was proposed by the French
commission over which M. Walewski presided. He thought
it safer and wiser to limit the protection to the period for
which copyright in books was given nude,' the late Sergeant
Talfourd's act—that was to say, for the author's life and
seven years after. He, therefore, proposed to give copyright
for such period to the authors of pictures, drawings, and
photographs. He did not seek to make the bill etrospectives
so as to give copyright to works of this kind which had"
already been parted with. He proposed that the purchaser
should have the copyright of the works he purchased unless
it was particularly reserved at the time of sale. These were
the principal provisions of ti!,e bill. The bill did not extend
beyond pictures, drawings, and photographs. The bill also
proposed to make it a misdemeaikour to put spurious marks
on pictures, by which act the reptu'ation of the authors was
injured and the public defrauded. The bill was not the
same as the bill of last session, and was tench simpler in its
provisions. His bill did not touch the act's relating to en'
gravings and sculptures, nor did he propose to legislate ire
architectural works. He thought this was a good oppor
tunity for introducing a supplement to the present law of
Sir M. RIDLEY asked wile.
ther it would not be .a 8 weu
copyright.
to make some provision for the
lastic art.
present The
a SOLICITOR-GENERAL
CyliTgOhtßw-
hGiEchNrEeaßch.A.Le
sculpture.replied that there was at
Leave was then given, and the bill was read a first tiroa•
The house adjourned at 10 minutes past 11 o'clock.

CO UN 2RI MAR. ,'=l AS.

1.-.

MANCHESTER—FEB. 27.
The market was inactive, and not well attended. Eng:
lish wheat only saleable at is decline on late rates, whieu
holders were unwilling to accept. Fine AA lerican wheat
at 2d to 3d per 100 lb less money, but taken sit, wly. Beio
showed little change. Oats and oatmeal were rl
Indian corn 6d down. ither

BIRMINGHAM—FEB. 27.
At to day's market there was a limited supply of Wii.eat",
which sold sli,wly at late prices; foreign, except PrOi;
samples, at a decline of is per qr. Barley, beans, and pet'
difficult to quit, at late prices.

LYNN—FEB. 25.
Wheat of the best descriptions and in fair condition sold
at about former terms ; any advantage, however, in favol
of buyers. Best malting barley scarce, ,at full rates, so
secondary qualities firm. Other ar ides as of late.
Old white 58s to 62s i Barley. .....345 to ~,:3644
..54s to 57s I Oats ......22s to rQg
Beans .40s to 44s I Peas 44s to

PLYMOUTH—JAN. 25.
The market was thinly attended, with a retail demand to
for wheat and flour at about last week's currency. 1V111„,„
wheat, 65s to 665; red, 63s to 64$ per qr ; French do., or
to 62s ; American, 61s to 63s ; Sponish, 74s to 76s • Ilur
sian, 60s to 625. sarley at about iati rates-34s to 388 pera
qr for malting; grinding, 28s to 30s; oats, 22s to2Bs; 141
beans, —s to —s ; flour, 43s to 46s Od.

EDINBURGH GRAIN—FEr.
Wheat on top is Od up .average 26
Os 7d d°wlll
Barley on the top Cs 6d down
Oats on the top 8s 6d up average Off 9d up.
u.
Beans on the top is Od up.... average is
10d P
average 2s 8d 11P.

Total Supply and Sales.
Wheat .1104 qrs Sold 895 qrs
8ar1ey........1268 qrs Sold 1090 qrs
Oats 2392 qrs Sold 1560 qrs
Beans 320 qrs Sold 309 qrs
Averages per Imperial quarter.
Wheat. .
New wheat 0 0 0 0-12ths•
Barley 1 12 0 4-12ths
Oats 1 6 1 10-12ths
Beans

CORK—FEB. 26.
The following were the quotations this morning :—Rtd
wheat, 20s Od to—s 0(1; white, 28s Od to —s Od; barley 110
Od to 14s 6d ; oats, 9s Od to 14s Od.

DERBY SMITHFIELD—FEN. 25.
There was a short supply of fat beasts to-day, and Oa,
demand was good. A clearance was effected. The suPPla
of sheep was tolerable, at former prices. Fat calves were
scarce, and sold well. The show of fat pigs was not large,
with a brisk demand. 83
Beef 6d to 6id Veal nd to iii
Mutton ... . 7id to Sid Pork
*
Lamb
Od Odt4old;
calf skins, d
lough fats,4:o36dd.p er stoP
Hides, 3d toe°