The Sun.
London, England, 1862-02-26 00:00:00

LAW.

Mr. H. SEYMOUR, in moving that it was expedient
that the ecclesiastical statutes be revised with E. view to
their consolidation, said he brought forward this question
on two grounds—first, because ecclesiastical questions were
attracting the attention of the public more than they used
to, as was evinced by the fact that the Government pro-
mised to bring in a bill for the reform of the ecclesiastical
courts; and secondly, because the consolidation of the sta-
tutes was considered to be a subject which ought to occupy
the attention of Parliament. The Bishop of Killaloe said
that the state of ecclesiastical law in England upheld the
influence of evil by'protecting delinquents. And the Record,
the organ of that party in the Church which was so much
favoured by the noble lord in the distribution of episcopal
patronage, she used strong language against the present
state of the law. The party is a great party in the country,
and they think that the present state of the ecclesiastical
law is a grievance which demands the immediate attention
of her Majesty's Government. The law governed
20,000 clergy, and the laity were also deeply
interested, both in an ecclesiastical and pecuniary
point of view, in its amendment and consolidation.
The lay patronage of the country amounts to nearly
two million sterling per annum, all -of which was go-
verned by that law, He was borne out by the former opinion
of the chief of the law in the country in these views, and
he did not believe that the Lord Chancellor, since his eleva-
tion to the woolsack, had changed his opinion. In the pre-
sent state of the business of the house there was ample time
for the consideration of this subject, and it was a work
which would stamp and give a character to the session.
The present was a most favourable time for consolidation,
as the house was about to be asked to deal with the courts
in which the law was administered. He therefore trusted
that the statutes would be made as simple and compendi-
ous as possible, that Englishmen might understand the
law by which they were governed.
Lord FERMOY seconded the resolution.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that the subject to
which his hon. friend had called the attention of the house
was undoubtedly a large and important one. As to the ge-
neral object he had in view there was not likely to be any
difference of opinion amongst those who desired the im-
provement of the law, but he thought it would be in a very
high degree inexpedient, and productive of no good end
whatever, if they were to agree to an abstract resolution in
the terms or to the effect of that proposed. His hon. friend
had referred very candidly to the learned and able publica-
tion of Mr. Stephens, a work of great learning in this de-
partment of the law, which had obviously in some degree
suggested the terms of the original motion, which was for
the consolidation of the ecclesiastical and eleemosynary
statutes—these being the subject of the work. He could
not be surprised at his hon. friend being alarmed and asto-
nished a., the great amount of the statutes and the magni-
tude of the volumes. But if the hon. members took the
trouble of to ,king into them their alarm and astonishment
would undergo considerable diminution, for an analysis of
the e statutes would completely repel the idea of consolida-
tion, and would lead them to see that' everything in the
world became ecclesiastical under the touch of his learned
friend Mr. Stephens. Not only did the work in ques-
tion contain statutes which most persons would recognise
under the title of ecclesiastical, such as those relating to the
church in its primary and normal relation to the state, to
church discipline and church building, and also ail the laws
relating to births, deaths, and marriages, ecclesiastical com-
missions, cathedrals, bishops, deans, and chapters; but, in
addition, the great bulk of the work, besides heais of
statutes, observations and notes, consisted of statutes such
as those he would mention. The Statute of Limitations
was to be found there—for it, of course, contained clauses
relating to ecclesiastical law as well as lay; the Municipal
Corporations Act, because municipal corporations had ad-
vowsons to sell ; the burial acts, acts for the government of
Canada, and the act providing for the regency of this king-
dom in case that great misfortune had happened, now hap-
pily no longer possible. His right hon. friend the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would be surprised to find his old
friend the Paper Duty Act there—(laughter)—because the
paper used in the printing of bibles was exempt from duty.
The Metropolitan Police Act was there—(laughter)—be-
cause it contained provisions against selling and buying on
the Lord's-day; the Prisons Act, because there are chap-
lains of prisons, and the Bakers Act, because,bakers may
not sell bread on a Sunday. Instead of these being a pro
per subject for consolidation, he ventured to think that all
that mixed matter absolutely repelled the idea of consolida-
tion, and that the codification of those fragments of acts
would create confusion and not order. In speaking of the
ecclesiastical statutes he did not adopt the distinction taken
between the religious and the temporal. Religion, properly
so called, was only, and to a very small degree indeed, the
subject of one or two of the statutes. There was net one of
them which did not relate primarily to temporal matters,
and with respect to these there was really no uncertainty or
difficulty as to what the law is. In the latter part of his
hon. friend's speech he spoke of amendment more than of
consolidation, and the pamphlet of the right rev. prelate
he quoted alluded to the evils of the present law and of
amendments which it required. That was a delicate and
difficult subject, and any ene who successfully under-
took it would be a benefactor to the public. Amendment
should precede consolidation. (Hear, hear,) His hon. friend
had alluded to the fact that it is proposed to amend the law•
in the present session ; they should not, therefore, begin by
consolidation. The practical question was—what are the
branches of the law which are in a state rendering it conve•
nicnt to consolidate them with a view to make the law more
clear and intelligible ? He was far from differing with the .
opinion expressed as to the expediency of the process, but it
labould be set about in a manner not likely to defeat the ob-
3eet in view. There were some things falling within the
sage of the motion which he thought were practicable and
i,. and
his hon. friend had done good by directing n
to them. One branch of the ecclesiastical law cer-
tainly required amendment—namely, the Church Building
Acts. They Wirtheir revision and
e badly drawn, and there was great need of
jesty,s Governmeneotzolidation, The attention of her Ma-,
and he hoped the dayawbaeen already directed to the subject,
beforenot far distant when a bill with
respect to it would be laidthe house.. (Hear, hear.)
There was also the law relating
ptooi-nrtessidenees ; nor did he
think they should stop at thes .
it and leave other and
kindred matters unconsidered.
But au inexpedient to

launch out on a wide sea by adopting the motion without
having the class of statutes and the undertaking to which
they pledged themselves defined. The work of amending the
law—which would be interfered with by that course--was
progressing. Under the act of last session two gentlemen of
great ability were engaged in it under the superintendence
of the Lord Chancellor, and be (the Solicitor-General) hoped
during the present session to submit a bill by which the ob-
solete and repealed statutes from the commencement of legis-
Henry VII.
ing(Hear, hear.)
lwa
ot iuolnd i nb tehri
es
mc ory e tdr yfrdoomwn theto the
sta rt euitgen.n
boofo ik
That denoted no inconsiderable progress, and the work was
going on with as much expedition as possible. It would be
a great matter to have the ecclesiastical statutes sifted, and
those no longer in use separated from those now in force,
• and they would not be indisposed to give priority and precm
deuce to that part of the work which would conduce most
to public convenience. There was, however, no considerable
pressure of uncertainty or difficulty as to the ecclesiastical
law, except as to the Church Building Acts and kindred
statutes, and as to these they would apply themselves to
the work of amendment and consolidation. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. FREELAND entirely sympathised with the motives
which had induced his hon. friend to bring the subject be-
fore the house, but hoped his hon. friend would not press
his resolution to a division. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HADFIELD hoped the attention of the Government
would not be confined to the consolidation of the Church
Building Acts, but that something would be done to reduce
the size of the statute-book, which was in a great state of
I confusion.

Mr. LOCKE said he should like to ask whether a great
portion of the labour which had been bestowed on the con-
solidation of the statute law had not been entirely thrown
away, because he recollected that the hon. and learned
member for Suffolk (Sir F. Kelly) when in office adopted
the principle of consolidating particular parts of the law,
and that other gentlemen who had been employed had taken
a different course, and had prepared a great many bills for
the purpose of their being submitted to the house. As, for
instance, the whole of the law upon aliens had been con-
densed and put into one bill to be submitted to the house.
He hoped the Solicitor-General would take the matter into
his consideration and see what his predecessors had done,
and also what remained to be accomplished. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. L. KING said he would merely state that he felt
glad the Statute Law Commissioners were got rid of, be-
caus e so long as they occupied the ground, nothing was
done in tho reform of the law. He thought they ought to
proceed first with the expurgation of the old statutes, and
then go on with the consolidation of the remainder. With
regard to the matter now under consideration, he was of
opinion that his hon. friend had done good service, and he
hoped that the Church Building Acts would at once be con-
solidated.

Lord FBEMOY said the object of the house ought to be
to make the law of the country clear and concise, and he did
not see why' theyshould be deterred by any difficulties which
might presevit themselves. It should be remembered that
the church of Ireland was by Act of Union united with the
church of England ; and in consolidating the Church Build-
ing Acts the Government should deal with the churches of
both countries aLike. (Hear.)
Mr. H. SEYMOUR, in reply, said the workof consolida-
tion was not going on in the spirit which ought to be dis-
played at this time, when so little public business was be-
fore the houses of Parliament; and at the present rate of
expurgation and consolidation he feared that half a century
would pass away before anything satisfactory would be
effected. As the hon. and learned gentleman (the Solicitor-
General) had undertaken to consolidate the Church Build-
ing Acts, and some other groups of acts of great importance,
he would withdraw his motion. (Hear.)
The motion was accordingly negatived without a division.
REGISTER OF ELECTORS.

Mr. L. KING moved for leave to briag in a bill to pro-
vide for an alphabetical index to be attached to each regis-
ter of electors throughout the kingdom, similar to the
mark which was now attached to every book of reference.
The measure, he said, would not be costly, and would be
a great convenience.
Leave given.
PROSECUTIONS EXPENSES.

Sir G. GREY obtained leave to bring in a bill for the
amendment of the acts relating to tho payment of the ex-
penses of prosecutions. The bill was founded on the report
of the commission of 1858, which recommended that magis-
trates should have a power over the expenses of witnesses,
except such portions as were defrayed by the Treasury.
Mr. A. TURNER and Lord HoTHAM severally expressed
their approval of the bill.
CHANCERY PROCEEDINGS.

Mr. ROLT moved for leave to bring in a bill to enable
the Court of Chancery to determine questions of law and
of fact, whenever it was necessary to enable it to administer
its jurisdiction. At present the Court of Chancery had a
discretionary power, but his object was to make it impera-
tive. Great inconvenience arose from the present state of
the law. There could be no doubt as to the capacity of the
judges to decide questions both of law and equity, and all
that had to be done was to see whether they had sufficient
machinery to enable them to deal with these questions. At
present the law of evidence was reduced to the same level
both in courts of law and equity ; and if there was any
business which the equity judges were incompetent to dis-
charge, it would be easy to deprive them of jurisdiction in
respect to it. There were no judges more ready and will-
ing, and more competent to deal with questions of law than
the judges of the courts of equity. He thought that the
measure he proposed would afford a simple remedy for a
considerable grievance, and confer a substantial good upon
the public. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. P. HENNESSY seconded the motion.
The SOLICITOR. GENERAL entirely concurred in the
views and principles expressed by his hon. and learned
friend. He also agreed with him in his estimate of the
practical importance of the measure he proposed. His
noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor had autho-
rised him to state that his attention had been directed to
the subject, and that he had it in contemplation to deal
with it as well as with other questions connected with pro-
Ceedings in equity in a bill which he proposed to introduce
in the other house during the present session. His noble
and learned friend did not, however, wish to throw any
impediment in the way of his hon. friend's measure. On
the contrary, his noble friend expressed a hope that he
should receive some valuable assistance from him. It
must be admitted that the judges of the Courts of Chancery
had the power as well as the capacity of dealing with ques-
tions of law as well as of equity. He assumed that his hon.
and learned friend, as regarded questions of fact, did not
mean to deprive the judges of equity of the power of send-
ing certain questions to be tried before the judges of assize
and in the country. For obvious reasons it was desirable
that they should retain that power of sending cases to
be tried in the country, where perhaps all the witnesses re-
sided. He agreed with his hon. and learned friend that if
the equity judges only possessed a discretionary power to
try questions of fact, they would naturally be inclined to
refer them to the common law judges, from a belief that
they were more capable of dealing with them. He thought
that the legislation which his hon. and learned friend sug-
gested would not only be useful for the purpose of getting
rid of the objection to the exercise of that discretion, but
also for cutting off a sot of bad precedents, and thus reliev-
ing the judges from the fetters which they imposed. (Hear.)
Mr. HADFIELD gave his assent to the principle of the
bill, but suggested some difficulties in regard to the details.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill.
PROPOSED ROAD ACROSS KENSINGTON-
GARDENS.

The house having resolved itself into committee upon the
London coal and wine duties,
Mr. COWPER rose to move for leave to bring in a bill
to amend the London Coal and Wine Duties Continuance
Act, 1861, and to authorise the formation of a road between
Kensington-gore and Bayswater, and to apply theproceeds
of the metropolis improvement fund account towards de-
fraying the cost of the construction of such road. The
right hon. gentleman said that one of the special duties of
the office ho held was the guardianship of the parks, and he
was therefore anxious to protect them from any sort of in-
terfere.nce which would diminish the recreation and enjoy-
ment of her Majesty's subjects, A strong case, however,
had been made out for interference in the present instance.
For the last two years he had received communications re-
presenting that the formation of a road across the park was
urgent and necessary. This year he received a deputation
from the western parishes of St.. George's, Hanover-square,
Marylebone, St.Pancras, Kensington, and Chelsea, showing
that it was required for the accommodation of that part of
the town, and that it was a hard case that the park should
interpose a barrier of two miles to the passage of any car-
riage from north to south. He felt there was great force in
the demand that the crown should allow a carriage road to
be made to meet the paramount wants of that portion of
London. He spoke not of temporary wants arising from
the Exhibition, but of wants of a permanent nature. It
was not merely the ordinary traffic between Paddington and
Kensington-Gore and its neighbourhood which required to
be accommodated, On the one hand, there were all the cart
riages going from the south to Paddington, and on the other,
all the vehicles from the north to Kensington-Gore and its
neighbourhood. In that part of the town they saw not
only the Kensington Museum, which was thronged by all
classes of the community, who found instruction there both
in science and art, as well as amusements of various sorts ;
but the Horticultural Gardens, which were likely to
receive thousands ' of persons at the exhibitions of
flowers, and the exhibition building, just erected,
a portion of which was to be permanent, and placed
under the care of the society of Arts. Therefore, not only
Londoners, but persons visiting the metropolis from all
parts of the country, would frequently desire to resort to
that centre of attraction by means of the road now proposed.
On the other hand, looking to the interests of the frequenters
of the parks, he would desire that such a road should not be
made unless it could be done without serious injury to those
parks. To some extent it was a conflict between utility
and beauty; but fortunately they had not to choose between
the two, as both might be combined. He thought that a
sunk road would answer all the purpose, namely, a direct
road below the surface, with sufficient air and space. which
would not interfere materially with the beauty of the land-
scape nor with the pleasure of pedestrians. He described
the road last night, but it did not appear to be quite under-
stood, as very few had been on the gravel walk through the
centre of Kensington-gardens, along which the road would
proceed. (Laughter.) There were many persons who ,