The Sun.
London, England, 1865-02-28 00:00:00

Mr. LEFROY defended the Irish Church against the

attacks of its opponents, and said that the eviis of absen
teeism would be greatly aggravated if the Protestant epis-
copal clergy were deprived of their livings. As to the
distress that prevailed, he believed it was chiefly attribu-
table to the humidity of the climate ; and instead of re-
gretting he thought the house ought rather to rejoice that
so many persons who were unable to support themselves at
home had emigrated to America and other lands where
their circumstances were so greatly improved that they not
\
only maintained themselves and families in comfort, but
were in a position to assist their relatives whom they had
left behind them. He could not blame the landlords of
Ireland for the diminution in the population from this
cause, for the people were leaving the best, as well as the
worst, managed estates in the country.
The debate was continued by Mr. Pollard-Urquhart and
Sir H. Bruce.
Sir G. GREY considered that the state of Ireland was
deserving of the deepest sympathy, because England her-
self could not be said to be prosperous or powerful so long
as the sister country was weak or discontented ; and it
behoved Parliament,therefore, to see whether some remedial
measures could not be adopted in her behalf. He did not
think that the land question was at the root of the evil,
and he knew pihho law in England which enabled a tenant
to expend any money he pleased upon his farm, and after-
wards come down upon his landlord for compensation. But
if the Irish people, forgetting their religious and political
differences, would combine for the improvement of their
country, and then come to Parliament with any well-
digested and reasonable claim for assistance, he was per-
suaded that Parliament would not ignore the claim.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE urged that the state *of Ireland
such as toanasd h
trerGoveraeu
ireserorioust; and in noticing consideration
noting theonthep art of
Ira
thes
house
ques-
tionson might to which attenti ght most usefully be directed
n
referred to the subject of taxation. There was no doubt,
he said, that the taxation of Irelandhere
had greatly increased
of late years, and that in a much larger
England. In considering the meansofrelieving her,
proportion than in
however, he should be decidedly opposed
to
any measure
g se
that might have the effect of establishing a
ysstem of dis-
criminating duties between the two countrialso of opinion that it would be unwise and improperliewas
incur a national expenditure in any particular partof to
the
United Kingdom merely for the purpose of creating °
em-
ployment for labour unless such an expenditure werein
cured for reproductive purposes. At the same time there
was no reason why the system of making advances to
proprietors and others for the improvement of their land
might not admit of extension. The right hon. gentleman
recommended Mr. Hennessy to be satisfied with the dis-
cussion and withdraw his motion.
Mr. LAIRD regarded the enormous emigration from Ire-
land more in the light of a national than an Irish loss, and
the present moment as affording a good opportunity for
doing something at all events. He recommended the ex-
tension to Ireland of a system of reproductive loans, not for
the cultivation of waste lands, because there was plenty of
other land already under culture. and susceptible of im-
provement, and upon that land he thought loans, properly
applied and upon the same terms as were accepted in Eng-
land, would prove of great benefit to the country.
Mr. PEACOCKE said if Ireland was to be regenerated
it was not by means of Government grants or loans, but by
the industry, energy, and self-reliance of her population.
After some observations from Mr. BLAKE,
Viscount PALMERS T ON said—Sir, whatever differences
of opinion may have been expressed with regard to the par-
ticular details adverted to in the course of this debate,
everybody must agree that the subject is one of the deepest
possible interest, and also I am happy to say I think that
the debate has been conducted throughout in the most tem-
perate and creditabl
Kings' e manner. The hon. member for the
County, who moved the amendment, set an example
which has been followed
though it often ha yby those who succeeded him; and
Irish matters are
aPPens that debates
conducted perhaps with
efferves-
cence than might be considered fitting, more
an example to the contrary ; and
trust that henceforward

discussions upon Irish affairs will be characterised by the
same temper and moderation which have marked the pre-

sent occasion. (Hear, hear.) Sir, the object of the amend-
ment is twofold—first, it asks the house to lament the

diminution of the population of Ireland ; and then it

exhorts the government to take steps to remedy the pre-

sent distress. The foundation of the motion is the

pression that there is great distress prevailing in Ireland.
Undoubtedly there is great distress in many parts of that

Country; but at the same time I would beg the

house to recollect that four years ago everybody
was congratulating himself upon the progressive improve-

ment of -Ireland, and it is only for these three years of

bad and unfavourable seasons that Ireland had been thrown

back. Although that unfortunately happened, yet it must
be admitted that last year was a year of a different charac-
ter, during which Ireland in a great measure recovered
from the distresses she had experienced. I don't wish, in

any degree, to overstate that gleam of prosperity in Ireland.
We all will admit, if you please, that which cannot be de-
nied—that there is much to be deplored in Ireland, and

much to which we should wish to apply a remedy. With
regard to the lamentable decline in the numbers of the
population, unquestionably, in the, abstract, it is a source
of regret to see numbers of people of any country flying from
their native shores, and endeavouring to seek elsewhere
those advantages which they are unable to find at home.

But some years ago the great evil of Ireland was represented
to be the redundant population, and the great remedy re-
commended by everybody for the then existing evil was
extensive emigration. Well, sir, it is painful, no doubt, to
contemplate the causes which lead to emigration. Emi-
gration in itself is no evil, if those who are flying to another
country, find in that country a better position than they
have in their own—if they become happier—if their welfare

is increased ; and no doubt the condition of those who are
left behind is improved, inasmuch as a smaller number of

persons remains to enjoy whatever advantages their native
country may possess. What we lament with regard to
emigration is this—that the unfortunate state of Ireland is
such that the people of Ireland are able to find elsewhere
a better condition of things than exists at home, for which
many honourable gentlemen have assigned different rea-
sons ; and I believe one paramount reason to be the pecu-

liarity of the climate of Ireland. Ireland is said tc) be a
fertile country. There are no doubt great tracts of very
fertile land in Ireland—more fertile than any parts of Eng-

land or Scotland. I have known land in which the seed

has been thrown and crops grown sixteen times running.
But at the same time there is a great quantity of moun-

thin and bog, and this must be taken into consideration
when we are estimating the superficial area of Ireland,
and the population which it is capable of maintain-
ing. Do you expect that any artificial remedies which the

Legislature can invent can counteract the law of nature,
and keep in the country people who find it more for their
advantage to leave it than to remain in it ? It is impos-
sible. Things will find their level; and till there be in
Ireland the same remuneration for labour, the same induce-

ment to remain in it which is afforded by other countries,
you will not, by any laws you can devise, prevent the peo-
ple of Ireland from leaving their own homes and proceed-
ing to other countries. People say that tenant-right, and

a number of other things, will do it. But none of these
things will do it. As to tenant-right, it is equivalent to

landlord wrong. (Laughter.) As I understand it, tenant

right is little short of confiscation. You may expel the
landlords, but you will not keep the tenants at home. The

real question is, How can you create that demand for
labour and that reward for labour which will keep the peo-
ple at home and prevent them from going to England,
Scotland, or to the North American States? Nothing can
do that but the influx of capital. Ireland presents many
advantages for the employment of capital. Ireland has
coal—not in great abundance it is true, but enough to sup-
ply manufacturers to a certain extent ; and she possessed
water power to a very great extent. What is it, then, that

has hitherto prevented the influx of capital into Ireland ?
It is the double notion—first, that Ireland has not the same
available means for the employment of capital as England
and Scotland ; secondly, that Ireland does not give the
same security for its employment. The concluding exhor-

tation of the hon. and learned member for Sheffield is one
that ought to sink deeply into the mind of every Irishman.

The religious and political feuds of Ireland have led to an
exaggerated notion in this country of the insecurity of em-

ploying capital in that country. If the people of England
and Scotland were well persuaded not only that they would
find cheap labour and the means of working machinery,
but the same security for capital which existed in this
country, there was no reason why capital, which
sought the most distant regions of the earth for profitable
investment would not go to Ireland. (Hear.) There cannot
be a greater mistake, in my opinion, than the idea that com-
mercial capital cannot profitably and securely be employed
in Ireland. When that idea is removed one great source of
the poverty of Ireland will be also removed. With regard
to the prevention of emigration from Ireland, agriculture is
not capable of any very great improvement, because one
source of the poverty of Ireland arises from the minute sub-
division of land; and what improvement can you expect to
be made in holdings of four or five acres, which are culti-
vated by the labour of the family. No great improvement
can be expected in the agriculture of Ireland except by the
displacement of part of the population, so that agricultural
improvement would in point of fact only lead to increased
emigration. Yet no doubt there may be considerable addi-

tional employment in many parts of the country by the em
ployment of additional capital. And if by means of private
enterprise, if by means of advances, to be repaid in a certain
number of years, landlords were enabled to make improve-
ment; which by their existing means they were unable to
accomplish, such application of capital might have a very
beneficial effect on the condition of Ireland. At the same
time I would humbly submit to landowners that the power
of borrowing is a very tempting one, that the time for re-
payment will come, and that they will do well to consider
carefully what prospect there is of a remunerative return, if
Government or private 'companies were disposed to lend.
With regard to the first part of the resolution, it is impos-
sible to adopt the naked assertion that we lament the decline
of population. That is a complicated question. We lament
that the population find it more to their advantage to emi-
grate than to remain at home, but if the result of their
leaving home is that they are in a better position, that is a
result which I think we cannot lament. With regard to
the second part of the resolution, I think the feeling of the
house is against any free grant of public money. (Hear.)
With regard to advances of money to be repaid, there are
companies established for the purpose of encouraging agri-
cultural improvements, and I apprehend that if good secu-
rity is offered to them, and if it is shown that there is a fair
prospect of a remunerative employment of capital, from
those private companies much assistance may be obtained.
(Hear.) It had been suggested that the committee of last
year might be reappointed for the purpose of considering
how far advances from the public fund might be extended
in Ireland for the purpose of local improvement. I can
give no decided opinion on that proposition till I see the
t le
al r!I
hunderstand)
t
entitled( to considera-
tpthharteamticisuexlaaraperttloeypor7ssaintoidofnstehweehotihredheeirrisobeffareairrfilneyrge.ennet(eiH
tion. (Hear, hear.) I can only say that her Majesty's
Government fully share in that feeling of deep sympathy
which has been expressed by all who have spoken in this
debate for the people of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) It is im-
possible to know anything of the Irish people without
wishing them every happiness. They are light-hearted and
warm-hearted, and most industrious, too, whenever they
see that by industry they can reap the rewards of industry.
It is a mistake to suppose that the Irish people are lazy,
and not willing to labour, and make great exertions for
some legitimate object. Therefore there was a strong de-
sire felt that they should enjoy every advantage that can be
conferred upon them by the legislature or by any official ar-
rangements that it is in the power of Parliament or the Go-
vernment to make. Therefore it is unnecessary for me to
say that the Government are most anxious to find that
there is any reasonable prospect of an improvement in the
condition of Ireland. Though no doubt much that has
passed in the debate must inspire pain as far as relates to
the present unfortunate condition of many parts of Ireland,
we cannot but look with feelings of hope to the general
prospect of the country, because it is demonstrable that if
we compare the present state of Ireland with what it was
thirty or forty years ago, there has been a great and
general improvement. That is calculated to inspire
a reasonable hope that in the course of time Ireland
will move with accelerated speed in a course of
prosperity, and will become more happy. (Hear, hear.)
I should imagine that the hon. gentleman will not think it
necessary to divide the house upon his resolution, and that
the debate which has taken place will satisfy him of the
good feeling and intention of the house and of the Govern-
ment. He will, therefore, probably rest satisfied with
eliciting opinions which coincide with those temperate views
which he himself expressed. And if any hon. gentleman
moves for the reappointment of the committee of last year,
with a more extensive range of inquiry, her Majesty's Go-
vernment
rfooe
Lstrnihd ott
eii
Lord
rathernoN
dvkngi
kind
inol
n.
dfoh3
MANNERS
the
ei
NscreiaheNs
ntmf
iieEtenre
earnest
r nshnsloc reference.
said
will be ready to consider the proposition, but
their acceptance of it will, of course, depend upon the
atokafdllnperhdc apesemi
ritlnioyeleeeodttaxnooyrtloicifiyr
tntge andtetyehiencestohhheaneevanrctilysli
usets hlpainfoerofnfowrgp
proposition
Irelandtt iGovern-
,hone
*words
of the noble lord with the greatest possible pleasure. He
understood the noble lord to assent to the proposition
thrown out in an earlier part of the evening by the right
hon. gentleman the member for Stamford, and with that
understanding he hoped his hon. friend would not divide
the house. (Hear.)
Mr. HENN ESSY said that if he understood the noble
lord to accept the proposition of the right hon. gentleman
he should not divide.
Lord PALMERSTON said that ho assented to the
proposition only so far as he considered the wording of the
order of reference to be worthy of acceptance.
Mr. HENNESSY said in that case he should divide the
house.
The house divided—
For Mr. Hennessy's motion
Against lO7-76
• The house then went into committee pro forma, and
immediately resumed.
COURTS
This
Iwas O
considered JUSTICE
third reading. a s
aßnyelaLd De d Na
and
BelrLd
order
d for