The Sun.
London, England, 1865-05-09 00:00:00

_
is quite another question—between retaining the Preeea
constitution and a democracy. It is well that the
house should remember that the stake is not
mean,d
that the issue is one of some price. It must remember we
are dealing with a peculiar people. There is u
at the present moment that exists under the same circum
stances and conditions as the people of this realm. s
You have, for example, an ancient and powerful endowed
church and perfect religious liberty. You have unbroken
order, and complete freedom. (Hear, hear.) you has.;
estates as large as the Romans ; you have a cominer°l r
system of enterprise that Carthage and Venice united nor!
county
equalled. You must remember this, that this pool°
country with its strange contrasts is governed not by for?:
not governed by standing armies, but by the most singunur
series of traditionary influences which generation octet
generation cherish and observe, because they know tha
they embalm customs and represent their laws. With these
what have you done ? You have created the greatest elad •
pine that ever existed in modern times ; you have all's°,
a capital of a fabulous amount ; you have devised and sus
tamed a system of credit still more marvellous ; and, abl
all, you have established and maintained a scheme so v,
and complicated for labour and industry that the history of
the world offers no parallel. If you destroy this state re°
society, remember that England cannot begin again' 111,„ene
are countries that have been in great peril, and luto
through great suffering, like the United States, wilc'ee .(3-01
tunes are now so perilous, and who in our immediate X-
is !bee
have had great trials, and perhaps even now we have
United States of America a protracted and internee 111 f
r
civil war. It has lasted for four years, but if it lasted e,
four more years, and vast as would be the destruction o.'
devastation when it ended the United States might begin
again, because the United States would only be in tile s$
,s,
position as England was in the end of the war of the Bes-st
when it had only a population of about three millions, vsls,
tracts of uncultivated soil, and mineral resources net o°,llo
undeveloped, but then even undreamed of. Take ,
°-
case of France. There has been in France a great reve!...,
tion in this our day and in the days of our predecessersthe
not only political but social revolutions. You have.,ty
institutions of the country uprooted, the orders of seel'es
abolished; you have even the landmarks and the local nawc,
moved and erased ; but Franco could begin again. Fran
had the greatest spread of any wheat soil in Europe' to
the climate was genial,": and always had, with referent/ a
it, a limited population living in a simple nlauller,;:st
France could begin again ; but England—the Engise"
lldt
we know and we love, the one of which wo are 104°tor
could not begin again. I do not mean to say that,` ss,
great trouble England would become a howling wilder -arid
nor doubt the good sense of the people would remain"but
fragments of the national character form a society,
would not be Old England—England the home of Ati
the
tion, of credit, of prosperity, of capital. It is net in 1
nature of things. And, sir, under these circurastalle; of
hope the house, when the question before us is °''•-.0
changing the constitution, will hesitate--that they cy'
sanction no step that has a tendency towards
,deraecvl'og.
but that they will maintain the ordered state of free-ars.
land that still exists. I have spoken frankly 195: at
I do not think in this country generally there is
ra3:tet-ort;trii
this moment for any further change in this
think the general opinion of this country on parliarueed
on
reform is that our views are not sufficiently mature, tis
either side, and I cannot refuse the conclusion that tee,u..)
the position of hon. gentlemen opposite. (gear' 11;0'''
We all know the papers circulated among us hefollAlber
liament meets, on which the speech of the bon. levra the
was a comment ; amongst .them I recollect one eslietio
"Liberal dilemma," and I confess with that sYnlll- ttag
feeling that belongs to me, I could not help aPPreci3cor
the agony of the the Government on this uestion. " to
'der that paper one of the most valuables ontributiel3
Fo
panegyric literature. (Laughter). Sir, in this heesbeiect.
find these indications of want of maturity on this stiv/rho
Our tables are filled at this moment by propositions °`.not
most eminent members' of the Liberal partY--e,,nlitfr"
for their rank, eminent for their talents, and for ws'ffects
and these are all trying to counteract the the Act•
of the Liberal reform of which they have been t-tioaS
vocates. It is clear, when we read their PreP° rti
and speculations, that the mind and intellect of the 13t9orto
describing
in Arfetotle such
;has arrived at no opinion on the subject. There is no
forunto
anda systeml ask anyas theirs.
gentlemanlt was 11°Y tileS°
found
wbether
co of
propositions are not proof that the active intelligell.,et.
the Liberal party is itself entirely at issue on this 611,1);10'
I may say there has been more moral consistency vile-
ness of consideration on the subject, on the part offteijoar
men on this side of the house, than those who regar'„lre
selves as having a monopoly in treating these stthieci"6":o4
can at least, in answer to those who charge us with
with the suffrage, appeal to the recollection of every
mind that we not only treated it with sinceritY 11,4
lost everything; we lost valuable colleagues, and We inioo
to the consideration of the house to support our „op 0:0
on the propositions. lam bound to say that on thethe
principle on which the bill was founded-1101;0
extension of the franchise and not its degradation'i,will
it will be found to be the only solution that ultirnate",ty ea
bo accepted by the country. (Cheers.) I feel I 011110 t
behalf of myself and my colleagues that we feel this tiono
tion to be attended with any embarrassment. W°llaN'tbat I
our duty, and it is not without some gratification
have listened to the candid admissions of rnanY l`e°. the
st
tlemen who voted against that measure that theY f °e,„„iiie/e
the defeat of that measure was a great mistake. -1- 0 CO'
that opinion is echoed out of doors, so far as we arvo are
corned. Ido not think that of those two parties ghat
they to whom this is the most embarrassing subiec" of the
is no reason why I should vote • for the
hon. member for Leeds. I think the carrying pleas'
motion would reflect no credit on the House Of
It is a mean device, not on the part of the hon. veu,t but
for I believe he acts from conscientious motive'' that
its proposition, in the mimicry of its langle:o the
it takes from the failure of the Government, and if
that
whole of the circumstances that attend it, it IS
of
character that I think the house will do its duty t°c-ooti'
and will secure the good understanding of °withal $
tuencies throughout the country if it reject the v.
decided majority. (Loud cheers.)
The house then divided—
, For the previous question 283
21*
measure
of
Against it '
Majority
The bill of Mr. Baines was accordingly lost. The
was received with loud cheers. OS.
WAYS AND MEANS.—EXCHEQUER BOJ.--,005
The report of the committee of ways and means
been brought up,
Sir S. NORTHCOTE asked whether the -•-•°11 el°
Bonds were to be assessed under the power given
committee. 17,11 said
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCLIEO4.; .nt. 11;
could give no positive assurance upon that ~r°,,l id 0t
ho ;1
would deal with the power in the manner lie
anrdtevep
oma ntrtp al
awgteeaosiu s fttsh
then
onr the p
exercise
agreed t uotbol.i c e
the
fullest
tquor
extent';
nmooTtshtcoe
1,01))
TORIES, ROBBERS, AND RAPPAREES

This bill was read a thirßdltLimije. and passed.
CLERICAL SUBSCRIPTION. 0003
Sir G. GREY, in committee of the whole 110ns°' leigta
tthatritnhge cinhaairtn, aiwlaldirectedeendattoh clergye tloa.w.ftoashveeEs
made uatsob ebayag
agreed
t hee
declarations
o b
The motion f the
Sir G. GREY then rose to • t ductiori °
move the in ro (I
bill, when J 0
late '
An HON. MEMBER moved that the house be 01
there being onl
us
y - - members present, o' locl`'
The house adjourned at five minutes past ello c
totbseubbsSisePtii°,l.-°:0151.
0
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Births. iliclo`
BE'rIIELL.—On the 4th inst h wife of Troll.
the ie
~ t oto
Bethell, of a son.
__;fB of OAP
EGAN.—On the 7th inst , at V7oolwich, the v. ,f•
of
E. Egan, RA., of a son.. ,i,° sviN
FIELD.—On the 7th inst., at Twiekenhaei, '- 40.
Field, Esq., of a son. wooDiret

CAMPBELL—HIIoGG.-11108tni
HAY.—On the sth •
daughter.ah. t
~
at
sv. _ ,
0:0,-illt:
Drummond ay, of a
that Seggieden, re
the Fields,
Marriage& k goer' itt°
Campbell, Esq., of Cograin, Dunlisl.73o,rt. 00,
George Wm. Campbell,in 'Esq., soo °frisuiro
, milt co, daughter of Sir James Weir flogg,„ coingt.,l,4
ba-LANG.—On the Gth inst , at St John's, 1 ! of dad
Williamn.—Olinc'itrhE7tscih"
Lang, Esq., Eliot Lodge,.t 131,:sekrthe.atli•
street, lr'
Deaths.
square, Robert Elliot, Esq., aged° inls:- CaT°ll4ii
Sil4
AxEnALD.—On the 6th' inst., at 15,010,:. vatft'zill;'4°.°'l
GEGnAnDerard,. to Emma,. eldest daughtoi
FITZ '
Atilla.Pri.a: ofl rYlOhlbernOaD'lEW-ILferk:)filoWrs.hila:eSYusse).-1 ilgt?'ag, ilg'cl4s:
mAwcoLoAREd, r.
Maclaren, aged Bhoe.
Lancashire, aged GO. ..
Alci'il'
—On
the
eh
lia-ntest.iirat
Joßhurighoteorna,r,i_ol3,7t., 0,,,0
bite'
sto"
Wore°
MILLS.—On the 6th
T. T., Mills, inst., at Broadway, 11011
PORTER.—On
J. R. Mill jun., Esq., aged 31.
the sth inst., Captain Thomas sorter
•A'
Navy.lti°l"
WARDS.—On the Gth inst., at Cloptoo —A 51/2 '
W • -pro so Str.
7th inst. at 122, ginories,
on-Avon, Charles T. Warde, Esq., age' - .
____-----"'-'
120181.
--------------risT- p, li,
London : Printed and Published by VirlLl,o)ll;.ce, 14°,,, of
of No. 112, Strand, Piinter, at Vas SuN v,h c 0011"
Strand, in the Precinct of the SOO, in 'e
Middleses,—Tuesday, may 9, 1805.