The Sun.
London, England, 1853-07-19 00:00:00

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LLOYD'S SIIIPPING.-(THIS DAY.)

LONDON, July 19.—Wind this day at Noon, W. ; mo-
derate breeze, and cloudy, with slight showers.
DEAL, July 18.—Wind, S.W. by W. Arrived—Eliza-
beth, New York ; Caros, St. John's ; Johannes, Constan-
tinople ; Columbia, Carthagena ; Gambia, Africa ; Trio,
Rio Grande ; Victoria, Tobago ; Helena, Jamaica; Hen-
drick Hudson, New York ; Courant, Miramichi ; Durango,
Quebeec ; Tarbert Castle, arrived in the River, for Mel-
bourne.
July 19 (9.55 a.m.)—Wind, W.N.W., moderate and
cloudy. Passed—Jandina, from Oporto, for London ;
Woolloomooloo, Sydney, for London ; Emerald Isle, Que-
bec, for London ; Crystal Palace, Shanghai, for London ;
Tancredi, Varna, for Hull ; Juno, Palermo, for Ham-
burgh ; Niger, London, for Sydney ; James Shepherd,
London, for San Francisco ; Augie, London, for New-
foundland ; Felicity, London, for Lisbon • Eliza and
Hester, London, for San Francisco ; Leichhardt, London,
for Sdney ; Wilhelmina, Leith, for Malaga; Alweritz,
Girgenti, for Newcastle ; Olivia, Carthagena, for New-
castle.

PORTSMOUTH, July 18.—Wind, S.W. to W. Arrived—
laide, Odessa.. Sailed—Royal Stuart, Melbourne.
SOUTHAMPTON, July 18.—Wind, N.W. Arrived—Ann,
Ibrail ; Jessie, Galatz. Sailed—Magdalena (s), West
Indies.

LIVERPOOL, July 18.—Wind, W. Arrived—Mary Ann,
Akyab ; Diana, Para ; Duke of York, Savinilla ; Young
Queen, Honduras ; Montrose, St. John's, N.B. ; Midas,
Quebec ; Frances, Newfoundland ; Carl, Johann, Alex-
andria ; Courier, Maryport ; Cyprus, Marsala ; Bilbao,
Charlegmagne ; Oxenbridge, Utopia ; Onward, Quebec.
Sailed—England, Calcutta ; Thomas, Quebec ; Commerce,
Boston ; Idalia, Valparaiso and Callao.
July 19 (10.30 am.)—Wind, N.W., moderate, and fine.
Arrived—Moore's Court, from St. ohn's N.B. ; Thomas
Forrest, Alexandria ; Fortunata Oswald, Varna ; Her-
mod, Helsingborg ; Joseph and Mary, Rotterdam; Caro-
lino, Charleston ; White Cloud, Montreal ; Nettuna, Con-
stantinople ; Stamboul, Catania ; Hebe, Charente. Off
Port - Huma, Mediterranean.

FALMOUTH, July 18.—Wind, fresh. Arrived—Adele,
Alexandria ; Cyprus Queen, Smyrna ; Siren and Rose,
Toganrog ; Paolina and Guage, Mazionople ; Harmonie,
Audacia, Onderneming, and Italia, Odessa ; Barre, Jella-
chich, and Panope, Ibrail ; Concordia Galatz • San Rocco
and Jane Avery, Constantinople ; William Williams, Sa-
lonica ; Maria, Bahia ; Triton, Alexandria ; Carl Richard,
Cyprus ; Doctor, Smyrna ; Palmyre and San Marco
Toganrog ; Giovanni, Odessa; Viva, Salonica. Off Port—
Sagittarius, Tognanrog.
BOSTON, July s.—The Mary Ellen, home to Charlotte
Town, Prince Edward's Island, has been lost on Lea
Island, in the Bay of Fundy ; crew saved.
CALCUTTA, July 3.—The Guttmeer was seen on shore
on the outer "Usshru Fee Shoal, May 8, by the Elindostan
(s), arrived here.
NORTH SHIELDS, July 16.—A brig of about 240 tons,
with Danish union on her foretop gallant rigging, painted
black, with red ribbon and yellow billet-head, mainmast
gone, and abandoned, was fallen in with on the 15th (at
10 a.m.), and seen to founder at 1.30 p.m., Tynemouth
Castle bearing about N.N.W. 35 miles, by the Harriet,
Mowatt, put back to this port.
LISTERLIEFE, July 10.—The Prince of Orange, which
stranded at List (Island of Syht), on the 28th Dec., 1852,
has come off to-day, and will proceed to Fance for repairs.
PARIS, July 17.—The wreck of a large vessel, dismasted,
and lying
upon her starboard side, apparently a Nor-
wegian, sides planked with pine timber, several of which
had started, and supposed not to have been long in that
situation, was passed 13th July, about 18 miles N.E. from
Start Point lighthouse, by the Virginia, arrived at Havre.
BALTIMORE, July 2.—A schooner, apparently foreign,
on her beam ends, the last three letters of the place she
hails from " mac," was passed off Thomas' Point, by the
Malang°, arrived here.

EXTRAORDINARY MIBTAKR.—Last week a gentleman
in Anglesey wrote a letter to his servant, desiring to
have one of his horses shod immediately. The man,
ignorant of English, had the epistle read to him, and,
after hearing the injunction: lost no time in obeying it,
according to the best of his understanding, by having
the poor horse shot. This may be taken as an old Joe
Miller, but it is true notwithstanding.—Nora Wales
Chronicle.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY.)
TRANSPORTATION BILL

After a short conversation in a low tone, across the
table, between the Lord Chancellor, Lord St. Leonardo,
and the Duke of Newcastle, the house went into com-
mittee on this bill.

Clauses 1 to 4 were agreed to.
On clause 4,
The LORD CHANCELLOR explained that the
object of the clause was to substitute for the punishment
of seven years' transportation a punishment of four years'
penal servitude, which was considered to be practically
the same in extent, because, though the sentence of
transportation was nominally for seven years, the con-
vict was sent to prison for a year and a half or two years,
and afterwards was sent to labour at one of the convict
establishments.

The clause was agreed to, as were clauses up to 8.

On clause 8,

The LORD CHANCELLOR explained the object of
the clause, which was to provide work at one of the
public establishments at Gosport, or Portland Island, or
elsewhere, after the convict had left prison, so that he
might not be compelled to go back to his old haunts,
and might have an inducement to behave himself well.
In order that they should not come into competition
with the labourers in the district, the work imposed
upon them would be harder, and the wages smaller, than
was imposed on others. The convicted thieves of Lon-
don, for instance, would not be permitted to come with-
in a certain distance of the metropolis. He hoped that
when these persons were for some time employed in the
public works that they would be received back into
society as reformed or partially reformed characters. He
was not insane enough to suppose that the system would
effect all that they wished, but it was the best that,
under the circumstances, suggested itself to the Govern-
ment, and he trusted that it would to some extent
answer the object they had in view.
The Earl of HARROWBY thought that it would be
by no means desirable to accumulate large bodies of con-
victs in particular localities. He thought the inhabi-
tants of such districts would complain very loudly of
such a thing. He would suggest that the convicts be
sent out of the country, and that a certain punishment
be imposed upon them if they returned.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that the clause
was not constructed with the view of compelling large
aggregations of convicts in particular localities, but it
was necessary, when they were driven from prison, that
they should be furnished with the means of existence, so
as to give them every possible motive for seeking an im-
proved mode of existence in other parts of the country
than those which had been the haunts of their crimes.oll
After a few words from the Earl of CHICHESTER,
which were inaudible,

The Earl of HARDWICKE said they would place
the localities in this country, where these convicts were
sent, in the same position that they placed the colonies,
and the same outcry would be raised. His conviction
was that the scheme would utterly fail.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said the object was not
to confine them to any locality, but that no one should
come out of prison and say that he was not able to ob-
tain work. After these persons were employed for some
time on public works, ho thought it was extremely pro-
bable—looking to the want of labour which at present
existed—that other persons would seek their labour, and
that they would be brought back into society. If they
were to expatriate these persons, other countries would
have reason to complain that the vice engendered here
had been thrown upon them. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that he thought
the measure for a uniform system of police throughout
the country ought to go pari passu with this measure,
for he believed that those gentlemen who issued from
the prisons in a state of incipient virtue would require to
be closely watched by the police, and that this measure
of great humanity would depend very much for its suc-
cess on the strength with which they exercised their
batons. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Whilst legislating
for the amelioration of those who committed crime, they
ought to take into their consideration that yet uncon-
taminated portion of society who might be affected by
what they were now attempting to carry into operation.
After a few words from the Duke of Buccrzuclr, the
clause was agreed to, as were the other clauses of the
bill. _ . _

THE INDIAN SALT TAX, &c.
The Earl of ALBE VIARLE presented a petition from
the Bristol Chamber of Commerce, praying that the
monopoly of salt exercised by the East India Company
might be abolished, but that, should it be considered
still expedient to levy a tax on this necessary of life, it
should be in such a form as to press less heavily on the
poor of India than the present system of taxation. The
noble lord said he should confine his observations prin-
cipally to the operation of the tax in Madras. Under
the native Government the tax was 245. 6d. the gass,
or 50 per cent. on the price. In 1806 the British
Government raised it to 31. ss. the gass ; it was subse-
quently raised to 71., 101., and in 1844 to the enormous
sum of 181. The consequence was the consumption was
entirely stopped ; the Government was obliged to re-
duce the tax to 121., at which sum it remained. The
Government regulated the quantity of salt to be produced,
and continued the land tax at its maximum. The
price of salt in Bengal was enhanced by a variety of
causes, natural and artificial. The noble lord then de-
scribed the process of the manufacture of salt and the
difficulties which the manufacturers had to contend with.
Their machinery was very rude, compared with that in
use in Cheshire. It was consequently' impossible for
them to compete with the salt of this country, or even
that of Madras or Bombay. He proposed that the
manufacture of salt in Bombay should be prohibited, as
we prohibited the manufacture of tobacco in this coun-
try. He would reduce the duty to one-half, and im-
pose a fixed duty on the salt imported from this country
and other places. The salt produced on the Malabar
coast and other places he would free from duty. He
proposed that the change should be gradual, as in the
case of our tea-duties. Of the five factories in Calcutta,
one had fallen a victim to the imported salt. The la-
bourers were in a partial state of slavery at the present
moment, but they would derive the greatest relief from
the cultivation of the neighbouring jungle. The cost of
the agencies was serious—from 8,0001. to 10,0001. a
year. He had another petition from East Indians of
Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay, resident in London,
complaining of the grievances under which they and
the community to which they belonged laboured in the
existing state of the law. They especially complained
of the operation of the 87th clause of the late Charter
Act, notwithstanding which natives were still excluded
from office. Many of these were persons of eminence
in medicine and at the bar, and possessed an education
equal to that of the members of their lordships' house.
The noble lord quoted the testimony of Colonel Steven-
son, Colonel James Skinner, and other officers, as to
the efficiency and economy of the corps of irregular
cavalry which had been established in India, and referred
in particular to the prowess of one Major Nairn, who
he said was in the habit of attacking tigers. Lord Met-
calfe had deprecated the existence of different classes in
India, and he urged the necessity of the extension of
equal rights to all. He quoted this in answer to some
depreciatory evidence which had been given before their
lordships' committee as a character of the natives.
NATIONAL EDUCATION IN IRELAND.

oen Eoafr
theof DO
houseN O Ut
oG H
the M
nl Tfe
the
e-
system of national education in Ireland, and to move for
C)priesEenrt°s:onitcaio
a copy of the resolution. lately adopted by the Board of
at-
tention
National Education excluding the use of certain books
from the schools under their manar,ement ; and to ask
vihether, in consequence of such 'resolution, any and
what members had resigned their seats at the board ?
The system of national education in Ireland had been
originally founded by the noble earl late at the head of
the Government, and was, as expressed by him, intended
to be a system of united secular and separate religious
instruction. Immediately after its first organization the
board had commenced the publication of a number of
works which could not be too highly praised, and which
had since then not only been used in the schools under
the board, but also in schools in this country and the
colonies. No objection whatever had been taken, or
could be taken, to the system of secular education as
carried out by the board, but certainly objections were
taken by men of very high character against the nature,
amount, and substance of the religious instruction. The
commissioners had published works both of secular and
religious instruction. They had published four books,
or volumes—two consisting of selections from the holy
Scriptures, one volume of "Sacred Poetry," and the fourth
volume being the work of the most rev. prelate Arch-
bishop Whateley "On the Truth of Christianity." Soon
after the system of the society was established, it was
found that a large and influential section of the clergy
objected to it. Their objections rested upon the fact
that religious and secular instruction were not made
separate. The use of these religious books, though not
enjoined by the board, was recommended by thgm. A
rule was established that all ministers of religion, of
whatever denomination, whether they had subscribed to
the school or not, should have access to the school one
day in the week to communicate religious instruction to
the children whose parents belonged to their particular
denomination of Christians. The result of the rule had
consequently been, to make religious instruction under
the national system in that country, to consist in
the schools being altogether conducted, in a great
majority of instances, by the Roman Catholic priest ac-
cording to his form, in some of the schools by the Pres-
byterian minister according to his form, and in a very
few of the schools by the Protestant clergyman accord-
ing to his form ; so that, except in the schools imme-
diately under the management of the board itself, there
was but one description of religious instruction given in
any one school. One of the objections made was, that
the Scripture extracts were not in general use. The
answer given by the commissioners in their report of
1836 was, that they were persuaded the fact were other-
wise. They stated that their inspectors were then out
upon their annual inspection, and that they had already
reported on 352 schools, and had found the children
reading the extracts in 285 of them. Those schools
were not particularly selected for visitation ; it might
therefore be expected that the extracts were read in an
equal proportion of the schools which remained to be
inspected, and therefore that they were used in more
than four-fifths of the whole number. It was therefore
perfectly evident that up to 183 G religious instruction,
so far as Scripture instruction was concerned, wasin-
tended to be general in all the schools. This showed
that the intention and wish of the managers at that
time were, that a certain amount of religious instruction
should be given with secular instruction. If their lord-
ships wished to improve the system of education in Ire-
land,—if, in their opinion, it was desirable to give all
parties an equal share of the public money for the pur-
poses of education,—let all restrictions be removed, let
no rules be established ; but let every party give what-
ever instruction they pleased. It was absolutely
necessary that the people should have instruction, and

' he would make any sacrifice to attain that end ; but
don't hold up a system which professed to give a cer-
tain guarantee, while it gave no guarantee what-
ever as regarded the spiritual education of the Ro-
man Catholic population. The question was whe-
ther those religious books to which he had re-
ferred, and the Scriptural extracts, had been pro-
hibited from the schools ; if the had, the whole
foundation of the system was violated ; in point of
fact, there was no longer any system ; and it would be
much better, so far as the Government was ooncerned,
that the future course of education should be simply
permissive. There was another question he wished to
ask the noble earl (Aberdeen)—namely, whether two
eminent members of the Board of Education in Ireland
had resigned their situations on the board in conse-
quence of what had happened ? He would wish to speak
of them with all the respect that was due to their cha-
racter and station. The most rev. prelate (the Arch-
bishop of Dublin) had been a very important member of
the board, and had made great exertions for the exten-
sion of the national system of education in Ireland, but
his hopes had evidently been disappointed, and it must
be admitted that the system he advocated had been
broken in upon. The Government must, under these
circumstances, consider it necessary to devise some other
mode, and see whether some system of education could
not be adopted to meet the views of all parties.
The Earl of ABERDEEN said, the noble earl had
alluded to the origin and progress of the system of educa-
tion in Ireland, but in every respect concerning that
system his 'observations had been by no means correct.
The system, when first established, was distinctly that of
a secular, as distinguished from a religious and a secular
education united. It was established by the noble earl
opposite (Earl Derby) in consequence of a recommen-
dation by a committee of the House of Commons, who,
in a report in the year 1828, eactually made that recom-
mendation. It is true that shortly afterwards a certain
amount of religious education was engrafted upon the
system, as a joint education. Instead of all religious
instruction being given separately, there was a certain
amount of religious education that was united with
secular instruction. That was in consequence of the
opinion and counsel of two members of the board—
the most reverend prelate who was at the head of
the board, and Archbishop Whateley ; but it was ob-
vious that a system of a united education, imparted to
_Protestants and Catholics, must always be of a very
limited nature. Shortly after the institution of the
system those two persons who were the cause of the in-
troduction of the united elements of religious and secular
education agreed upon certain Scriptural extracts ; then
upon a volume of sacred poetry ; and, finally, upon a
work which no doubt set forth the evidence of the truth
of Christianity, and which might be thought fit for chil-
dren to read, but a work, however, which he should
say might be studied with advantage by grown men.
That work "On the Truth of Christianity" was always
very much objected to by the Roman Catholic priests,
to whom the management of the schools was intrusted.
A rule wits consequently laid down, that if any person—
if any parent objected to the use of any of these books,
the book so objected to was then to be transferred to and
used at a separate time for religious instruction, and was
no longer to be used in the system of joint religious edu-
cation. The noble earl was wrong in the supposition
that no Scriptural extracts were used in the schools.
There had been no question raised about rejecting that
work from the schools. The volume of " Sacred Poetry"
was also used in the schools. The only work in question
was that of the most rev. prelate, in which he taught the
reasons for the truth of Christianity. That had always
been objected to very generally by the Roman Catholics,
who were interested in the schools and their manage-
ment. The board had at length determined not any
longer to use that work as part of the joint religious
education, but it was still used in the separate religious
education. The origin of this unfortunate occurrence,
which he was sure every man must lament, and which
had arisen in the government and administration of the
board, had taken place in consequence of this circum-
stance :—ln one of the district schools in Clonmel,
under the management of two Roman Catholics, they
rejected the work on Scriptural evidence. That was
in the year 1849. In coneequenco of one of the rules
under which the system was administered—it occurred
that, where there were Catholics in the school whose
parents objected to the use of these books, they were
transferred to the separate religious instead of being
used in the joint religious education. This took place
at the district school of Clonmel. The most rev. prelate
objected to this, and the matter was reported to the
board, whose attention was drawn to the facts by their
secretary. He thought it was in last September that
the most rev, prelate was made aware that one of the
books which had been used continually had been, by
the order of the two commissioners alluded to, trans-
ferred to the separate religious education. The most
rev. prelate objected to that, and insisted on the prac-
tice of reading the book being continued, it being, as he
must say, however admirable it was in itself, not such
as was received by the Roman Catholic community in
the same manner as the.other books to which he had re-
ferred, such as the Scripture lessons and the volume
of " Sacred Poetry." But the most rev. prelate insisted
that the books should be retained, and many meetings
took place, and much discussion arose on the subject.
He must say, however much he approved of the book,
and however much he might regret its exclusion from
the combined religious education—knowing that it had
been used with good results,—that the most rev, prelate
founded his objection to the exclusion on the grounds
which appeared to be scarcely tenable. The most rev.
prelate denied the power of the board to reject any book
which they had once authorized to be used. He thought
that this would scarcely tally with the letter of the noble
earl (the Earl of Derby) to the Duke of Leinster, in
which he said that the commissioners exercised a most
entire control over all the books to be used in the schools.
It would, he thought, be impossible to maintain that
those who had the power to introduce the books had
not also the power to withdraw them ; and he contended
that the power of the board could scarcely be disputed.
But, so far as he could collect from all he had heard on
the subject, the most rev. prelate rested his sole objec-
tion on that ground. Having stated that the noble earl
opposite was entirely mistaken in supposing that the sys-
tem of joint religious education was no longer retained
in the schools, he would now refer to the liberal speech re-
cently delivered by his noble friend, in which he was sup-
posed to have maintained the impossibility of any system
of education existing without religious instruction. That
was very true so far as England was concerned, but if a
Catholic population existed in England to the same ex-
tent as in Ireland, undoubtedly a different system of
education would be indispensable. But it was, as he
was sure would be admitted by the noble earl who in-
troduced the system, entirely owing to the peculiar cha-
racter of the population of Ireland, and not from any
preference to the particular system of education that he
introduced the plan to which his name was attached,
and which had conferred such immense advantages on
the people of Ireland. He did not know anything which
had proved so great a blessing to the population of Ire-
land as the national system of education ; and, notwith-
standing the differences to which he had adverted, he
still trusted that nothing would take place to diminish
the advantages or to limit the extension of a system
which had done so much good, and from which so many
more advantages were to be expected. He admitted
that a great difference of opinion had taken place, and he
was sorry that he did not perceive any great probability
of an understanding being arrived at. However, although
he could not anticipate that this understanding could be
effected, as yet the most rev. prelate had not ceased to
be a member of the board. He had no communication
with any other members of the board, and therefore he
did not know the intentions of any one. At present he
'was quite unable to say more, though he admitted the
great differences of opinion which existed ; and he cer-
tainly sould not go so far as to say that the most rev.
prelate was not disposed at the present moment to re-
main a member of the board. With regard to the motion
of the noble earl, there could be no objection to the pro-
duction of the resolution, seeing that it would, in the
ordinary course of business, have been shortly laid on
the table. He had stated the sole ground of the diffe-
rences which existed, and, fully perceiving the conse-
quences to which they might lead, still he could see no-
thing in them to cause him to augur at all unfavourably
of the ultimate result and continued successful progress
of the system so happily introduced.
In answer to a question from the Earl of HARROWBY,

The Earl of ABERDEEN explained that the eightli
rule had been very recently altered, on the motion of one of
the commissioners, in such a way that instead of the
book complained of being transferred to the separate edu-
cation, the child whose parent had complained of the
book would be removed to the separate class.
Lord MONTEAGLE, who had evidently misunder-
stood the explanation just given by the Earl of Aberdeen,
argued against a system by which the parent of a single
child possessed a veto, or the power of blackballing any
book. Each religious party would put a veto on the
books of the other, and the system would be thereby re-
duced to a peilect caput mortuum.
The Earl of ABERDEEN here interrupted the noble
lord, and again explained that that was under the old
system ; and that under the new, instead of the book, the
child would be removed to the separate class.
Lord MONTEAGLE was very glad to
ex-
planation of the noble earl, andexpresliear the
sed himself
satisfied with the alteration. Alluding, then, to the
particular case under discussion, he declared that he be-
lieved the board possessed the power to reject any book.
Excellent book as it was, it might very reasonably be
objected to as a schoolbook, and the board had certainly
not exceeded their powers in excludingf it.
The Earl of DERBY said, that the question were
as had been stated by the noble earl opposite, and as
had been repeated by his noble friend on the cross
benches, he should have dissented from the grounds on
which it was said that the most rev, prelate had thought
fit to object; but, although he spoke under the correc-
tion of the noble earl, who was so much better acquainted
with the subject than he possibly could be, he was very
much afraid that the noble earl had wholly mistaken the
effect which had been attributed to the resolution alluded
to. and that, so far from that resolution being of the
character which the noble earl had ascribed to it, it
affirmed precisely the contrary. In the first place the
noble earl, at the commencement of his observations, had
stated that in the first instance it was intended that the
system of education should be a combined one, uniting
secular and separate religious instruction. To a cer-
tain extent, undoubtedly, that was the case ; but the
noble earl had fallen into a slight error when he stated
that thO introduction of the Scripture extracts and of
other religious works in the hours of combined relLtious
instruction was an afterthought, and not included in the
original plan. If the noble earl would refer to the para-
graph which had been quoted, he would then see that it
was intended from the very first that the religious in
struction should to a certain extent he imparted during
the hours of combined education. The passage in the
paragraph was as follows : " Although it is not de-
signed to exclude from the list of books for the combined
instruction such portions of sacred history or religious
and moral books which have been approved of by the

board, it is to be understood that it is by no means in.
tended to convey a perfect or sufficient religious in-
struction on the days set apart for that purpose."
Therefore, in the first instance, there was intended to be
separate books in every case for separate religious in-
struction, and, in addition to that, the board reserved to
themselves the discretion of introducing, as shortly after-
wards they did introduce, books which had been com-
piled so that they could not be objected to either by
Roman Catholics or Protestants, which did contain, and
which afforded so long as they were in use a very con-
siderable amount of religious knowledge to Roman Ca-
tholic and to Protestant children sitting in the same
room, and receiving instruction together. That course
was pursued until the year 1844, when the practice was
introduced to which the noble earl had just adverted.
He alluded to the practice introduced by rule 8. In the
report which was issued by the commissioners in that
year, they stated that they had established a number of
schools, which were attended by thousands of children,
and that they had succeeded in compiling several works,
containing a serious Of lessons grounded on Holy Writ,
which were used in the general instruction afforded in all
the schools. But in that year, also, and in order to meet
objections which had been raised by several members of
the Roman Catholic community, these books were not
insisted on, but only strongly recommended, and the
rule was adopted to which his noble friend had referred.
That rule was, most unfortunately, worded very am-
biguously. It said, "The commissioners do not insist
on the Scripture lessons being read in any of the
national schools, nor do they allow them to be read
during the time of secular or literary instruction"—this,
said the noble lord, was a departure from the original
plan—" in any school attended by children whose parents
or guardians! object to their being so read." In such 1
cases the commissioners prohibit their use, excepting in
the hours of religious instruction. That resolution was,
as their lordships would see, unfortunately worded most
ambiguously. It did not allow the books in question to
be used in those schools attended by children whose
parents or guardians objected to their use. Under that
rule it must appear doubtful whether the Scripture ex-
tracts were to be excluded on the objection of the parent
of any single child, or whether that child was to be pro-
tected from the risk of being compelled to read them, by
receiving permission to leave the room. From 1844
downwards, there had always been, to a certain extent,
a difference of opinion with regard to the construction
of that rule ; and the general practice, he believed, had
been that protection had been afforded to the child, by
its being permitted to withdraw when these books were
being read. At the same time he must say that, although
the Scripture extracts were read, and were in fact a most
essential part of the system pursued in the model school
at Dublin, and which ought therefore to be the model of
all the other schools under the control of the board, he
had good reason to know it- had been discovered that
in the model school at Clonmel, which was entirely
under the control of the commissieners. themselves,
these Scripture extracts had been excluded from the
hours of ordinary combined education, Now he thought
that, whatever might be the case with regard to schools
under the management of individuals, it was most
unfortunate that, upon a point of such importance,
any deviation from the ordinary practice should be
allowed in schools under the direct control and manage-
ment of the board, and especially in those schools which
were to be regarded as models for the rest of the coun-
try. Unless he was greatly mistaken—and he received
his information from one of the commissioners—the de-
cision at which the commissioners arrived the other day
was entirely opposed to the sense attached to this rule
by the noble sari opposite. A motion was made at the
board by Mr. Baron Greene, one of the three dissenting
commissioners, to the effect that protection should be
given to the children, and not for the exclusion of books;
but a large majority of the commissioners decided against
Mr. Baron Greene, the late Lord Chancellor Blackburne,
and another commissioner--the most rev, prelate (the
Archbishop of Dublin) not being present—that the rule
should be interpreted according to its strict literal sense.
The consequence was, that the objection of any one
Roman Catholic child would be held sufficient to ex-
clude a book. He could only say that be had this state-
ment from Mr. Blackburne himself, and that the object
of Mr. Baron Greene's resolution was to give to the
rule the sense which the noble earl opposite (the Earl of
Aberdeen), the noble lord (Lord Monteagle), and he
thought the great majority of their lordships would con-
sider the sound and rational construction. Mr. Baron
Greene's resolution was, however, negatived by a very
considerable majority. He (the Earl of Derby) consi-
dered, then, that there had been a very important devia-
tion, in a very essential particular, from the original
rule, and it appeared as if there was an influence at
work for the purpose of excluding from the national
schools, in deference to the opinions of the Roman Ca-
tholic priesthood, all books which give to the system of
education anything of a religious character. If this
were the case, it would be impossible to resist the force
of an argument which had hitherto been met by the state-
ment that although the religious instruction given might
in itself be insufficient, yet that a considerable amount
of religious knowledge was imparted in all the schools
to Roman Catholics and Protestants alike, and that for
the purpose of obtaining the great benefit of the union
of children of different persuasions for the purpose
of education it was necessary to abate something of what
would otherwise be considered desirable with regard to
the amount of religious instruction given to Protestant
children alone. If the system was to be so altered as
altogether to exclude all religious instruction with regard
to Roman Catholic children frequenting the national
schools, then he must say that one of the great and para-
mount objects contemplated by the original system
' would be defeated, and the system would be open to
the objection which he thought could not hitherto be
justly urged against it, that it was entirely and completely
a system of secular education, disregarding religious in-
struction altogether. He would be very glad to find
that the opinion of the noble earl opposite was correct,
and that would be ascertained when the resolution of the
board was laid upon the table, and when they found who
proposed the resolution, and who composed respectively
the majority and the minority. He admitted that the
exclusion of a book upon the evidences of Christianity
was not a reason which he would think sufficient for
breaking up the board ; but, on the other hand, if the
resolution was to be regarded in the sense lie had been
led to believe, and if a prevailing intention was gaining
ground of excluding more and more religious instruction,
of which even now too little was given, he would say
that was a fatal impediment to the working of the sys-
tem, that it must be fatal to its beneficial effects, and
that in such a case those Protestant members of the
board who could not conscientiously assent to a diminu-
tion of the amount of religious instruction given would
not only be justified, but bound to withdraw from a
system which, from the first, depended upon the mutual
and harmonious working of members of different reli-
gious persuasions, upon the sound sense exercised by both
parties, and upon the balance being impartially held be-
tween Protestants and Roman Catholics.

The Earl of ABERDEEN soid, he had in his posses-
sion a copy of the resolution of Mr. Baron Greene, which
was carried, with the exception of the clause relating to
the "Evidences of Christianity." The noble earl read the
resolution, which was to the following effect :
" The commissioners do not insist on the Scripture ex-
tracts, "Lessons on the Truth of Christianity,"or the book of
"Sacred Poetry," being read in any of the national schools;
nor do they allow them to be read as part of the ordinary
school business, during which all children, of whatever de-
nomination they may be, are required to attend, in any
school attended by children whose parents or guardians
object to their being so read by their children. In such
cases, the commissioners prohibit the use of these books,
except at times set apart for the purpose, either before or
after the ordinary school business, and under the following
conditions. Firstly, that no child whose parent or guar-
dian objects shall be required, directly or indirectly, to be
present at such reading. Secondly, that in order that the
child whose parent or guardian objects may be absent at
the reading of the books above specified, public notification
of the time set apart for such reading shall be inserted in
large letters in the time-table of the school ; that there
shall be a sufficient interval between the conclusion of the
ordinary school business and the commencement of such
reading; and that the teacher shall immediately, and
before its commencement, announce distinctly to the pupils
that any child whose parents or guardians so desire maya
leave. Thirdly, that in every such case there sha 11 be
n
t tine
orderb e
thatexclusivetime devoted
those each ae
children
hhai rilddaarlyLt of
lovtrhli
oes udcohn ordinaryro reading,
ajdoi nii'n schoolstheu ffi
business,cding
of
the books may have ample time for literary instruction in
the schools."
The Earl of DERBY observed that, according to the
resolution as it stood, it appeared that, during the hours
of combined instruction the Scripture extracts were not
to be read in the schools in the presence of children whose
parents or guardians objected to their presence during
such reading, and that it would be competent to any
child in the school to object to the Scripture extracts
being read during the hours of combined instruction.
The consequence would be that those lessons would not
form part of the combined instruction, and that the
parent of any child would .have the power of placing a
veto upon the use of the Scripture extracts.
The Earl of ILARROWBY was understood to say
that he considered the use of the Scripture extracts was
a main principle of the system of national education in
Ireland.
Lord MONTEAGLE thought it a most objectionable
principle to give the parent of one child the power of
excluding the Scripture extracts from any of the national
schools.

The Earl of DONOUGHMORE said, admitting that
the Established Church of Ireland did not represent the
great body of the people of that country, he thought it
should be treated fairly. He had received a letter from
Ireland, which stated that, a few days ago, in one of the
national schools in that country all the Roman Catholic
children came forward, and objected to the reading of the
Scripture extracts, which had heretofore been used in the
school. It appeared to him very plain that if the reso-
lution was to be understood as it was explained by the
noble earl opposite, the Roman Catholics would succeed
in carrying their point, for the resolution invited the
opposition of persons who objected to the use of the
Scripture extracts. Taking the case of a school com-
posed almost entirely of Protestants—of the children of
members of the Established Church and of Presbyterians
—if there was one Roman Catholic child in that school
he might prevent the use of the Scripture extracts during
the hours appointed for combined instruction. He could
only repeat his opinion that this regulation struck at the
root of the whole system.
The resolution was then agreed to.
PUBLIC-HOUSES (SCOTLAND) BILL.

The house then went into committee on this bill.
Lord KINNAIRD said, the measure was similar to
bills which he had brought before their lordships'
house on two former occasions, but which, owing to
the late period at which they were sent down to the
other house, were necessarily abandoned. This bill
had been introduced in the House of Commons by
Mr. F. Mackenzie, who was lately member for Liver-
pool, and had undergone considerable discussion, and
it differed from the former bills in this respect, that it
did not interfere with the courts which uranted

ces, but merely enacted certain regulations with
regard to public-houses in Scotland. Unfortunaf
Scotland had obtained great notoriety for intemper-
ance. (A laugh.) He did not mean to say that intem-
perance could be repressed by act of Parliament, but he
thought they might at least diminish the temptations to
intemperance. A very curious and interesting report
had been drawn up on this subject by certain gentlemen
in Edinburgh, 200 of whom bad devoted their attention
to ascertaining the number of persons in that city who
frequented public-houses on the Sunday. It appeared,
from their investigations, that in a population which ac-
cording to the last census numbered 153,680, and was
now perhaps nearly 160,000, the number who went to
public-hoses on one Sunday was 41,796. Of this num-
-11,981 were women 4,631 were children under 14 years
of age, and 3,032 children under eight years of age were
seen to enter public-houses, either to obtain spirits for
themselves, or to convey them away. In Scotland
spirits were sold over the counter by grocers, and the
consequence was most demoralising, because women
would go into a grocer's shop to obtain spirits when they
would not be seen going into a public-house. Many
Scotch artisans had stated that they had found consider-
able sums set down in their accounts for groceries which
they discovered were charges for whisky supplied to
their wives and children. He need scarcely say that
the evil arising from this system, which the present
measure was intended to remedy, were very great. The
bill was intended, in the first place, to abolish the pre-
sent system of selling spirits over the counter in grocers'
shops. Another provision of the measure placed the
public-houses--which were now under the supervision
of the Excise authorities, who were generally unwilling
to prosecute—under the regulation of the police. At
present also in Scotland a beer- license could not be
granted separately from a spirit license. If a person ob-
tained a beer certificate he had aright to demand a spirit
license. The bill proposed to separate the two, and
enacted that no one certificate should be issued en-
abling persons to sell beer and spirits. It was very de-
sirable to encourage the consumption of beer in Scotland
for a marked difference was observable, on the borders
between the whisky-drinking and beer-drinking popula-
tion. Another remedy for intemperance in Scotland
would be the admission of light wines it a small duty.
The bill then passed through committee with some
verbal amendments.

COLONIAL CHURCH REGULATION BILL.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said, their lord-
ships were no doubt aware that ecclesiastical affairs in
some of our colonies were not in a very satisfactory
state, and it was very desirable that some legislation
should take place which should enable the authorities to
make better rules for the government of the church
there. To accomplish these objects a bill had been
framed which it was hoped would meet with their lord-
ships' approval, and of which he would now move the
second reading. He had heard from a high legal autho-
rity that some alterations might be introduced into the
bill which would render it more acceptable, and more
likely to answer the purpose for which it was intended.
He would therefore now move the second reading of the
bill pro formd • it would be committed to-morrow in
order to effect the alterations suggested ; and the dis-
cussion upon the principle of the bill would be postponed
until Thursday next.
The bill was then read a second time pro folmd.

COPYHOLDS BILL.
On the order of the day for the recommitment of this
bill,

The LORD CHANCELLOR said, the Copyholds
Act provided, that when any money was paid for the en-
franchisement of copyhold land, it should be either paid
into the Bank of England in the name of the Accountant
of the Court of Chancery, or else should be placed in the
hands of some trustees, and the interest of it paid to the
party whose manor was enfranchised. In the case
of ecclesiastical corporations in the possession of
manorial rights, whether corporations ,sole or aggre-
gate, they had in this way received the interest of
the moneys so paid for enfranchisement. Under the
act passed the year before last, enabling the Episcopal
and Capitular Commission to enfranchise, the same
process took place, but with this difference that,
though the money was paid in, as in the other case, in-
stead of the whole of the interest going to the ecclesias-
tical corporation, so much only was paid as was an equi-
valent on a fair calculation for what had been received in
respect to the manor as it stood before enfranchisement,
and the surplus, if any, went to the commissioners for
ecclesiastical purposes. The object of this bill was to
regulate the enfranchisement with respect to these corpo-
rations, and to provide that for the future, with respect
to any enfranchisement entered into by the Capitular
Commissioners, the money should be paid over to the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners, to be applied according to
the provisions of the act.

Tile bill was then recommitted and the amendments
agreed to.

METROPOLITAN BUILDING ACT FURTHER
AMENDMENT BILL.

The report of amendments on this bill were brought
up and agreed to.
PIMLICO IMPROVEMENT BILL.
..... _ ___

This bill was read a third time and passed.
TAXING-OFFICER COMMON LAW BUSINESS
(IRELAND) BILL.

This bill was read a third time and passed.
Their lordships adjourned at a quarter past 9 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-(YESTERDAY.)
SUCCESSION DUTY BILL.

On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Mr. LIDDELL said that not having been present during
the discussion hitherto on this bill, he could not allow this
stage to proceed without expressing his decided opinion
that the measure was altogether inconsistent with sound
policy and justice. A more unjust or more exacting mea-
sure never had been propounded to Parliament. The coun-
try had heard of ship-money, of poundage, and of but-
lerago ; but all these measures of an oppressive and in- •
quisitorial character had been repealed by the wisdom of
successive Parliaments, and it had remained for the in-
genuity of the right hon. gentleman, when it should be
the duty of persons in his position to remove every odious
impost, to impose this extortionate tax upon the people of
England. He made no motion upon the question, but he
felt that he should not have done his duty to his constitu-
ents if he had not, even at the last stage, expressed his
opposition to the measure.
Mr. SPOONER, moved the addition of a proviso to the
second clause, the effect of which would be, that where
the father was a tenant for life, and the sou was either a
tenant for life or a tenant in fee or in tail in remainder or
reversion of the same property, the son should be deemed
to be a lineal descendant, and should pay duty accordingly.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL opposed the proviso, on
the ground that it would open the door to a series of ex-
emptions which ought not to be recognised.
Mr. MULLINGS supported the proviso, and expressed.
his conviction that, if not conceded now, the day was not
far distant when it must be.

Mr. MALINS also supported it. Son after son might
die, and 10 per cent. after 10 per cent. would have to be
paid, until the whole estate was eaten away by the Govern-
ment.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
assent to the amendment, if it were only on the ground
that it did not contain any distinct and tenable reason, for
this exemption would not apply to others. If agreed to,
the amendment would occasion confusion and difficulty.
After a few words in support of the proviso from Sir J.
PAKINGTON,

The house divided. The numbers were—
For the proviso ... 100
Against it
Majority
-33
Mr. FP.ESHF
successively moved two amend-
Ei
ments on the fourth clause, with reference to the general
ttyb againstz
powers of appointment over property, the object of which
was to make the exercise of such powers confer successions
only in cases where the appointments so. made insured to
butthe baeftenerfiatuinexwphloua
osleliun
bpyarttboefstolriupttoarrt.s.Gesemnearakiintghathtemthe;
clause as it stoodwas in strict conformity with the prin-
ciple of the Legacy Duty Act, and that the Government
were not disposed to alter it, both amendments were ne-
gatived without a division.
Sir J. PAKINGTON moved the omission of the pro-
viso to the 21st clause. This clause enacted that the inte-
rest of a successor in real property should be considered as
an annuity, the duty chargeable thereon to be paid by
eight equal half-yearly instalments ; and then followed the
proviso, the omission of which was moved by the right
hon. baronet—" Provided that if the successor shall die
before all such instalments shall have become due, then
any instalments not due at his decease shall cease to be
payable, except in the case of a successor who shall have
been competent to dispose of a continuing interest in such
property, in which case the instalments unpaid at his
death shall be a continuing charge on such interest, in ex-
oneration of his other property, and shall be payable by
thejowner for the time being of such interest." ' The ob.
jezt of his amendment was to prevent the accumulated tax
which the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to levy in
the case specified, because, in his opinion, this accumulated
tax would be unjust and oppressive, and would fall chiefly
on the humbler and poorer class of landed proprietors.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
agree to the amendment. Great indulgence was shown to
the successor by allowing him nearly five years for the
payment of his tax. It appeared absurd to represent the
tax, as proposed to be levied by this clause as unjust or
oppressive. If a man had a continuing interest in pro-
perty which he died in possession of, the tax due upon it
would be a debt to the state, which ought to be paid in
the same way as any other debt.
Mr. CROSSLEY was of opinion that the landlords bad
been let off very easily by the bill, and he should not be
surprised to see some of them sending the Chancellor of tbe
Exchequer conscious money, as was done by personawho
ha
fight-
ing been oblivious respecting the payment of the income-
tax.Mr. MALINS remarked that the Opposition were
the battle of small landed proprietors, and expressed
•
etrahe
ll
most hateful measures ever enacted.
histu uc conviction vi
wouldcti e n tahu acitu
iwr
eh e
tnb
et h ec
bbei
!cattle
ro u
01 df
bcoeing
senut oe oe pf
Mr. HADFIELD opposed and Mr. VANCE supported the
amendment,
After a few words from 3fr. E. DENISON and Mr. Mut.
LINGS,
The amendment was negatived.
Mr. MA LINS rose to move the omission ef clause 23, pro-
viding for the mode of levying the tax on timber. The public
was much indebted to landed proprietors for planting their
estates with timber, whether ornamental or profitable. It
was proposed by this clause, that if any gentleman should
cut down timber to the amount of 101. he would have to
pay 25., and so on in proportion. For the sake of this pal-
try and insignificant tax the exciseman was to be main-
tained, and watchers sent to inspect the felling of timber
on every gentleman's estate. For this insignificant sum of
a few shilliags the Chancellor of the Exchequer would open
a ledger account with every estate in the kingdom. (Hear.)
If he would only leave every proprietor to snake his own
return in his own way, he would receive a much more cer-
tain return, and would, mos cover, make more revenue out
of it ; for, by the present mode, the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would be a decided loser. How was ho to be com-
pensated for the cost of collecting these items of 2s. or 21.,
as the case might be, upon felled timber ? He trusted that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose pertinacity in ad-
hering to every clause of this
.bill he greatly regretted,
would at the last moment snake some concession, and with-
draw this clause, as altogether unworthy of being retained.
He then moved that the 23d clause be omitted.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS said, if the hon, and learned gene
tin= would walk into the poor rnau'a cottage, and see

the old oak chest and the old arm chair, and other furni-
ture which had come down to him, perhaps, from his grand-
mother, he would find that if they were of more value than
201., he would have to pay for them 24 per cent. as
probate
duty, and lA per cent. as legacy duty, while under the pre-
sent bill not more than A per cent. would be paid by the
landed interest.
Lord J. MANNERS expressed his astonishment that the
landed interest had treated this budget so leniently, and
quoted a passage from Adam Smith, to the effect that the
monied interest in Parliament always looked more sharply
to what effected themselves than the country interest did.
He objected to this clause because it treated timber
or product of the soil in a manner in which no other
product of the soil was treated, and subjected it to
an unfair, odious, and inquisitorial system of taxa-
tion. He also objected to it because it was antagonistic
to the principle of taxation which had hitherto prevailed
in this country. There were peculiar circumstances con-
nected with timber which might induce the Government
to exempt it from taxation altogether. In estimating the
value of property hedge-row timber was naturally included,
and if that timber were removed for the improvement of
agriculture were they to tax it ? Ought they not to allow
for the detriment which its growing had occasioned to cul-
tivation? The same observations applied to isolated field
timber. Another objection to the tax was, that it was a
tax—an excise duty—on raw material. Mr. M`Culloch
laid down in his work that it was against all principle to
lay taxes on commodities to be subsequently manufactured,
and that timber was the most important of all raw mate-
rials. At this very moment, though there was nominally
a duty on all foreign timber imported, the exceptions were
numerous. No duty was paid on timber for shipbuilding.
Was it just that all this foreign timber should be imported
duty free, while corresponding articles of English growth
were heavily taxed ? (Hear, hear.) If this clause were
carried, the spectacle presented would be a most extraordi-
nary one—the same Parliament which declared the impor-
tation of foreign timber at the lowest cost to be an object
of national importance, would be enacting that all English
timber should be taxed to an amount varying according to
the degree of relationship between the present and the for-
mer owner. In order to be consistent, those who repealed
the corn and the meat duties should have proposed some
time ago that corn and meat grown in En,gland should be
subject to an excise duty. (Hear, hear.) By retaining
this clause the right hon. gentleman would confirm the
suspicion that landlords had formed with regard to the sin-
cent of free traders, and would deepen the feeling that,
at the hands of the present Government at least, the
landed interest had no reason to expect justice or fair
consideration.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND was surprised that the noble lord
did not perceive the fallacy of his own argument. (Cheers
from the Ministerial benches.) The proposed tax was not
a tax on timber, but a tax on succession, and would bepaid
by the owner of the staves to which the noble lord referred
no less than by the landowners. (Hear, hear.) The noble
lord said he could not understand how anybody connected
with the landed interest could support their bill. He (Mr.
Drummond) held that the principle involved in that re-
mark was a fallacious one. When legislation was founded
on class interest, it could not be of the right kind. (Hear,
hear.) He disliked this succession tax as much as any one ;
but the question was why, when personalty was subjected
to a succession duty realty should be exempted. (Hear,
hear.) The expenses connected with the levying of the
tax, would no doubt produce a great deal of irritation,
but it was the small and not the powerful landed proprie-
tors who would suffer most. The attorneys would reap
such a large harvest from this tax, that they would have
no occasion in future for the efforts of the noble lord the
member for Middlesex (Lord R. Grosvenor) since her Ma-
jesty's Government had, in the succession duty, made them
a present which far outweighed anything they could gain
from the remission of the duty on certificates. Hear.)
The house then divided—
For the amendment
Against it.
Majority
40
Mr. CAYLEY said as k general rule timber land was
not more valuable than arable or pasture land, while single
trees and hedgerows did more harm than good. He would,
therefore move as an amendment that it shonld be at the
option of the successor to have timber estimated for the
purposes of the act at the same rate as arable, pasture, or
other land of similar finality immediately adjoining.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was sorry
that he could not consent to the insertion of the proposed
words, first. because it would not be applicable to park
timber, and secondly because it would create the greatest
possible difficulty in the assessment of value. All ground
of objection was removed by the fact of the successor hav-
ing the option of either paying on the annual receipts or
commuting.
The amendment was negatived without a division.
Sir J. PAKINGTON then moved an amendment, the
object of which was to prevent the bill from being retro-
spective. He could not allow this bill to be passed without
again recording his strong objection to what appeared to
him the excessive injustice of adding to the burdens of pro-
perty, which was already over-taxed. Whatever difference
of opinion there might be on other points, there could be
none with regard to the injustice of ex post facto legisla-
tion—(hear, hear)—and although they (the Opposition) had
not been able to obtain majorities in that house, it was
satisfactory to know that they had succeeded in opening
the eyes of the country to the oppressive nature of the im-
post which the Government now sought to impose on it.
It now remained for the other house and the country to
say what view they took of this measure • and he believed
that so inquisitorial and oppressive would the new tax be
found, that the country, at least, would insist on some
other species of taxation being substituted for it. (Hear.)
Mr. MALINS said the attention of the right hon. gen-
tleman had been repeatedly drawn to this clause (the
34th), the effect of which was, that a son who had joined a
father in getting encumbrances on his inheritance, and then
succeeded, would have to pay the tax as if he succeeded to
a clear inheritance. He had within his knowledge a case
in which more than a million was borrowed in that man-
ner, long before the Succession Bill was thought of—
(hear, hear)—and would it be just to make the heir pay
on the million borrowed? Ho appealed to the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, who had not thought it necessary
to answer the arguments previously addressed to him,
whether ho thought it just that a son should be made
to pay duty on property to which he never succeeded?
Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
reason why he had not spoken on the point referred to by
the hon. and learned gentlemen of late was, that not in
one debate only, but in three or four debates, he had said
everything which it was within the limits of his capacity
to conceive or to inflict on the house. (Hear, hear.) To the
hon. and learned gentleman's question, whether he thought
this clause just; he had not the least hesitation in reply-
ing that he thought it was just. It was not, as the hon.
and learned gentleman supposed, the principle of the bill
that men should pay duty merely on that to which they,
Actually succeeded, but that they should pay it on that to
which it was in their order, choice, and option to succeed.
(Hear, hear.) If a person anticipated his succession by
spendine the fruit beforehand, the requiring him to pay
the duty was founded on general justice. It was not de-
sirable for the country that those who had nominally
50,0001. a year, and had pledged 45,0001., should remain
in imaginary possession of the whole estate. The prin-
ciple required by justice was that the succession which had
been anticipated should not be placed in a better position
than that which had been waited for until the legal and
proper time of enjoyment.
Mr. MULLINGS supported the amendment.
Mr. NEWDEGATE protested against the bill as me-
diaeval legislation, and as an effort to restore feudal tenure.
If the right hon. gentleman merely wanted increased re-
venue from real property, why not add a sixpence in the
pound to Schedule A ?
Mr. DISRAELI did not think that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer's anticipations as to the amount to be derived
from this source would be realised. The case mentioned
by the hon. and learned member for Wallingford would
certainly find this clause oppressive, and the parties had no
remedy, as they had no power to alienate any portion of
the domain. He thought the right hon. gentleman had
better re-consider the clause, with a view to making it pro-
spective only.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL had always objected to
legislating with a view to particular cases ; but, as this
particular case had been mentioned, he might say that
where a father and son wished to preserve estates from
pride of ancestry, instead of selling to clear off debts, that
was not a case for peculiar consideration. Again, a man
might borrow 50,0001. on his succession, and turn it to pro-
fit, and was that to escape because it had been antici
pated ?

Mr. WALPOLE would venture to say that unless Go-
vernment gave way on this clause they would not only
suffer in public opinion, but would be defeated in another
place, where the clause would be judicially considered. He
had no objection to the prospective operation of the clause,
lout thought that its retrospective action should be pre-
vented.
The house divided—
For the amendment
Against it
y
Majorit
On the question that the bill do pass, —4l
Mr. MALINS proposed amendments leaving out clause
23, and exempting " titles to land" from the operation of
clause 49. He considered the power taken unnecessary,
and likely to prove oppressive and offensive oven to the
small freeholders.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
already shown that the production ofd eeds was absolutely
necessary.
Sir C. BURRELL supported the amendment.
The house divided—
For the amendment llO
Against it ..............................
Majority 146
....................... ...
A verbal amendment was made at the instance of Mr.
CRAUFUBD.
On the question that " the bill do now page,* another
division was insisted upon by the opposition, the numbers
on which were—
For the motion 176
Against it
Majority
—72
The bill then passed, amid considerable cheering from
the Ministerial side of the

INDIA BILL.
The house then went into committee on the India Bill.
Clauses 15 to 22 were agreed to.
On clause 22, which refers to the appointment of legis-
lative councillors to be added to the Council of India for
making laws and regulations, and empowers the Court of
Directors, if they should think it expedient, to add, under
the control of the Government, two persons, having been
ten years in the civil service, to the Legislative Council.
Sir H. MADDOCK said he objected to the number of
councillors to be appointed, on account of the expense.
From his experience of the Council of India, he was of
opinion that there was not enough of business to occupy
any number of gentlemen during the whole course of the
year. But if they were going to insist on the appointment
of so numen us a council, then he was of opinion and should
propose that three persons so appointed should be European
or. native Indian subjects of her iviajog+v and in the service
of hiaj(st7 or of company. Complaints had I een
thatek petitions to Parliament by the natives of I itib,
neoir la•Ns awl religious usa-es had been infringed
upon twithstandin,,,,, they were 'guaranteed by sets . of
1-41.rtlinent. Now,were he believed that if well-informed native
to
argue their
own nted tho connoil they would be
the recurr.2uce of such
,s as they
case, and would be able to plev,nt
atso proposed to vest in th (governor-ruperalaillitehde pofo.werHoet
dispensing with the service
sad Legislative Council, antiany of the members of the
fromhtime to time to dissolve
the said council whenever there
„,„embly
of 9nid no, in his opinion,
no necessity for the
said legislative couLcillors. all or any portion of the
Mr. HUME said that nefore that inn put he
had an amendment to propose—namelm°lt.tha—t o-fasthe coun-
cillors to be appointed one of them to be
the other a Mahomedan. Some persons thought ghhitt°° "d
natives had not conducted themselves so well in other
situations that they should be appointed to the Le" 4
Council. He differed very much from those personisa,t°
cause when he was in India he was as well and faithfully.
served by natives as ever he was in England. He believed
that if a Hindoo and Mahomedan were appointed it would
tend to give confidence to the natives of the country, and

would prevent those mistakes with respect to their customs
and usages which led to so much mischief.
Sir H. MADDOCK said he should be glad to adopt the
amendment of the hon. member for Montrose or his own,
as the President of the Board of Control should consider
best. But, with reference to what fell from the hon.
member (Mr. Hume) with regard to the evidence before
the Indian committee, he wished to say that though
there was a difference of opinion as to admitting
natives into the councils generally, yet he was not
aware that any of the evidence given went further than
this • that they would be useless. He believed that two
or three native gentlemen associated with seven or eight
English gentlemen would have much weight in a council.
The main reason for which he asked a consideration of this
matter was, that if it was desired to inspire the people of
India with a belief that we were interested in their welfare
and were anxious that they should have an opportunity of
declaring their feelings and advocating their interests, it
would be only an act of wisdom and justice to place two
native gentlemen in the Legislative Council. He would
not place them in the Executive Council, for he believed
that the executive and the officers of the army should be
English, and that the civil service should also be English,
and a close service, and that no natives should be admitted
into it.
Sir R. INGLIS said there would be a difficulty in select-
ing natives for these offices. From what class were you to
take the Hindo, and from what sect the Mahommedan ? He
believed that as muchknowledge of Indian affairs, literature
andlaw was to be obtained in the council from English gen-
tlemen who were members of it.
Sir C. WOOD said there were two questions now for
consideration—the proposition of the hon. member for
Rochester, with regard to the number of the Legislative
Council ; and that of his hon. friend the member for Mon-
trose, who, in addition to the twelve members proposed by
the bill, wished an addition of two natives. He agreed
with the hon. member for Rochester, that the government
of India must be despotic, and that was the principle the
bill intended to carry out. As regarded the natives, he
hoped that by increased education and intercourse with
Europeans, they would soon acquire their share in the go-
vernment of India. The evidence before the committee, and
especially that of Mr. Halliday, went to show that the
character of the native judges had greatly improved, and
the tenor of the whole of the evidence was, that the ap-
pointment of natives to offices was increasing all over
India ; but that the time had not come when they should
be admitted into the Legislative Council. So far as con-
ciliating the good:opinion of the natives, he did not think
that anything would be gained by putting two natives into
the council. If the natives were not fitted for admission
into the civil service, as the hon. member for Rochester
said, were they fit for admission into the Legislative Coun-
cil? The evidence before the committee went to this, that
by means of increased education the natives were becoming
more fit for employment in important offices in the service
of the company, and in this he (Sir C. Wood) concurred ;
but it decided that whatever else they were fit for, they
were not fit for the Legislative Council. With regard to
the number of the council all the evidence agreed in this,
—that there should be a council of twelve, including gen-
tlemen from all the presidencies, which was an important
and necessary addition. He did not think it would be
wise to increase the number of the Executive Council, but
it would be very advisable to have the information in the
Legislative Council which gentlemen from all the presi-
dencies could afford. A question had been raised whether
it was advisable to revise the law commission in India.
He thought the best course to proceed *as as the bill pro-
posed. He did not think it advisable either to decrease or
add to the numbers of the Legislative Council.
Lord STANLEY was as desirous as any one to see native
talent admitted to the highest offices in India, but he saw
great difficulty in doing it in the way proposed by Mr.
Mume. He feared that the seats in the Legislative Council
proposed to be opened to natives would not be given as the
reward of merit but as a matter of favour by the Govern-
ment. (Hear, hear.) It was not desirable to place the
natives in these high offices without they had the oppor-
tunity of qualifying themselves by filling lower positions.
He had therefore no alternative but to vote for the clause
as it stood.
Lord JOCELYN thought it desirable that the highest
offices should be open to the natives, but could not concur
in the propriety of giving those appointments to the Go-
vernor-General. Though concurring in its principle, he
could not support the amendment. He hoped the time
was not far distant when they should be able to give their
Indian fellow-subjects a share in the government of that
country.
Mr. BLACKETT said he should support the amend-
ment. The employment of natives in the Government had
been recommended by Lord Elphinstone and by Lord El-
lenborough, than whom no one was a more determined
advocate of English supremacy.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that to introduce a Hindoo
or a Mussulman into the Legislative Council, would be
most distasteful to India generally.
Mr. MANGLES said there was no single native to be
found in India who could be considered a representative of
the Indians generally. There was not the smallest nation-
ality or community among them. There were hundreds
of Europeans in the service of the company who knew no
more about India than did the natives themselves. Had
natives been in the council at the time, they would have
opposed the abolition of suttees by Lord Wm. Bentinck.
(Hear.) They would also have opposed that humane mea-
sure of Lord Wellesley, by which the destruction of chil-
dren was prevented. He would give the natives large
prizes in the judicial and other departments; but they.
would not be fit, for many years, for legislative employ-
ment; and it would be a positive unkindness to them to
place them in such offices.
Mr. H. D. SE YMOUR thought that a heavy charge had
been brought against the company, in regard to their neg-
lect of the employment of the natives ; and that that
charge had not been answered. The right hon. baronet
(Sir J. Graham) had had the candour to confess in his
speech on this bill, that the object of the Government was
to get plenty of places in India for the middle classes of
this country ; but he (Mr. Seymour) thought that the
middle class would have sufficient morality and virtue to
repudiate this bait to continue British despotism in India.
Such a system as was pursued by the rulers of India,
in withholding all offices from Indians had never been
pursued by the worst tyrants and conquerors in the whole
history of the country. Ho denied that the evidence
taken by the committee justified the arguments used and
the plan proposed by the right hon. gentleman (Sir C.
Wood). The evidence went the other way. • (The hon.
gentleman quoted instances.) It was a maxim in history
that the conquering nation which did not amalgamate with
the conquered could not endure; and the future of England
in India was indeed hazardous, if the system she was to
pursue was that vicious and fallacious system sketched that
evening by the right hon. gentleman in opposing this
amendment. The hon. gentleman then proceeded to make
general observations on the bill, and was finally stopped by
angry cries of " divide."
Sir H. HADDOCK (who spoke amidst much impatience)
expressed an opinion that the time would ere long come
when it would be necessary to admit natives to assist in
the Legislative Council of India.
Mr. HUME replied his object was rather to consult the
feelings of the natives, and by showing them that there
were prizes to be gained under the British rule to attach
them to our sway.
The committee then divided—
For the amendment 39
Against it l6B
Majority • —l29
The amendment was therefore lost.
Clause 22 was then agreed to.
On clause 23,
Mr. BRIGHT objected to proceeding further.
Sir C. WOOD said he only wished to proceed with the
clauses that were unopposed.
Mr. BRIGHT said if they were unopposed now they
would be unopposed afterwards.
Mr. HUME moved that the Chairman report progress.
He had been in the house since 12 o'clock.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again on Thursday.

BILL.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the house
divided, when there appeared—
For the third reading
Against it
Majority
The till was consequently thrown out.

42
53
-11

BURIAL GROUNDS.
Lord PALMERSTON moved for leave to bring in a
bill to authorise the closing of burial grounds in towns.
In reply to a question from Mr. A PELLATT,
Lord PALMERSTON said the object of the bill was
simply to extend to districts beyond the metropolis the
provisions contained in the act of last year, giving power
to the Secretary of State to close churchyards, leaving it
to the parishes to make provision for burial.
Leave was then given, and the bill was brought in and
read a first time.

FACTORY BILL.
Lord PALMERSTON obtained leave to bring in a bil:
to limit the hours of employment of children in factories.
Leave having been given, the bill was brought in and
road a first time.
The house adjourned at 20 minutes to 2.

PAIRS ON SUCCESSION TAX BILL.
FOR. AGAINST.
Mr. Wm. Brown. Mr. G. Sturt.
Mr. Brand. Mr. Wynn.
Mr. Thompson (Aberdeen). Sir. F. Thesiger.
Col. Tynte. Mr. Knight.
Mr. Kingseote. Sir Wm. Codrington.
Mr. Heard. Sir Glynno Welby.
Mr. Rich. Lord Wm. Graham.
Mr. Benbow. Mr. Corry.
Mr. Elliot. Mr. T. Baring.
Mr. P. Scrope. Mr. G. Dundas.
Mr. Ewart. Mr. Fellowes.
Col. Peel. Lord Elmley.
Sir Robert Price. Mr. E. Vivian.
Mr. Glyn. Mr. Cairns.
PAIRS.—Mr. Bennet paired off in favour of Mr. Ball's
motion on the malt duties on Tuesday last with Mr. Milner
Gibson ; Mr. Mundy paired in favour of Mr. Malins's
amendment on the timber clause in the Succession Duties
Bill with Mr. Hastings Russell ; Hon. A. Ponsonhy and
Lord R. Grosvenor Government, with Colonel Blair
and Mr. Knightley against, from 8 till 10 last evening.
The Hon. G. Byng has paired with Sir Geo. Foster from
July 18 for the remainder of the session.

SPORTING INTELLIGENCE.

TATTERSALL'S-MONDAY.
GOODWOOD STAKES.

At the commencement 6 to 1 and 11 to 2 were taken
to some money about Goorkah for this event, but to-
wards the close he was so severely peppered that he re-
treated to 20 to 1, taken and afterwards offered. There
is a rumour afloat—and we give it only as a rumour—
that he is amiss with influenza. Hobby-horse was backed
at an improved price, and Joe Miller advanced to 8 to 1,
taken. Vindex was in strong favour in well-informed
quarters ; at first 12 to 1 was laid ; at the close 10 mon-
keys to 1 were booked. 500 to 400 betted between him
and Goorkah.

ST. LEGER.
Even and 5 to 4 on West Australian.
DERBY.

THAMES EMBANKMENT BILL.
On the order of the day for going into committee on
this bill,
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said he promised the hon.
member for Honiton to make a statement with regard
to this bill. In 1845, the Royal Commissioners for
Metropolitan Improvements, in their second and fifth
reports recommended that a new park should be formed
in Battersea-fields, and, that, in connection with it a
bridge should be built across the Thames at Chelsea,
and that a new street communicating with Lower
Sloane-street should be made on the embankment
from Vauxhall-bridge to Battersea-bridge, and along
that embankment a road was to be made about two miles
long. In consequence of this roper., .n 1846 two acts
were passed, one to make a park iu Battersea-fields, and
the other to empower the Commissioners of Works to
make a bridge to Chelsea, and to make an embankment
from Vauxhall to Battersea. Fc r the making of the
bridge and the new street, the commissioners were em-
powered to borrow 120,000/. from the Exchequer Loan
Commissioners, which was to be raid partly by means of a
general rate and partly by contributions from persons
whose property would thus be improved. Those contribu-
tions were not to be commenced till agreements, approved
of by the Treasury, had been entered into by the parties
whose property was to be improved. The time for making
those agreements would expire on the Ist of August next,
and one object of the bill was to extend the time till July
next year. The bridge at Chelsea was in process of con-
struction, but the embankment had not been commenced,
except a portion of it, which had been commenced by an
agreement with Mr. Cubitt. The estimate for the bridge
was 70,000/., and for the embankment and new rtreet
146,0001., making 216,0001. altogether. It was expected
that 62,0001. would be received partly from persons whose
property would be improved, and partly from the resale of
property along the embankment and. the new street. The
next expenditure therefore would be 154,0001., in return
for which it was expected there would be a net income
from tolls on the bridge and from the piers, amounting to
about 6,600/. a year, making a return of about four per
cent. on the outlay. The park of Battersea would be com-
paratively of little use to the inhabitants on the north
bank of the Thames, unless there was a bridge at Chelsea ;
and the bridge would be of little use to it unless approaches
were made to it from the east and west, from Vauxhall-
bridge and Battersea; and the embankment and roadway
would be of the greatest benefit to the public.
Mr. LOCKE said the observations he made the other
night were not to oppose this bill, but were of a more ex-
tensive chai:acter, and intended to apply generally to
schemes which were brought forward without an estimate
but ho wished to kTnhoewe.isftitmhae
of the expense.
tefuinndsthwiserceasfeowrtahsco2m66i,nooog,
01. r,
over their heads fourhaving propertyhang-
ing
Sir DE L. EVANS troeungeho.ytne thein
years longer, after being threat-
ened'observations of the hon.
eration. So far as this
gentleman were entitled to
bill went, it was unobjectionat except as to the tolls
wllich he should propose to strik:'
tevdentubeat without tolls
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY obsyeorvrne
vend the inhabitants of the
thseyirwjo.o not
V. srf LabEleytoce,,,leiet
metropolis generally would submit to an ii;iprovenient
rate if the representative system were introduced, so as to
have a control over the expenditure.
The house then went into committee on the bill, and it
passed through committee without amendment.
Mr. HENLEY objected to the leving of a toll on the
bridge, which ho said would be depriving the poor of the
benefit of the park. (Cheers.)
1111
HIGHWAY RATES BILL.
This bill was read a second time and ordered to be com-
mitted on Thursday.
TURNPIKE TRUSTS ARRANGEMENT BILL.
This bill was read a second time and ordered to be com-
mitted on Thursday.
TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE BILL. TrtfisE
of
T. emloertoteorrs l
o ss receivedsp oak
of t
payfrom
This bill was road a second time and ordered to be corn-
he damage
milled on Thursday. done to the growing crops by the rains. Much
METROPOLITAN SEWERS ACTS CONTINUANCE crops has been laid, and l • heavy
is
a arge portion described as
BILL. • beine. in some places
• of this under water. These advices have
On the order of the day for the second reading
produced much uneasiness with regardbill, to the approach-
- in
Sir J. V. SHELLEY said he understood it was only to harvest.

12 to 1 was taken to some money about Autocrat, 20
to 1 to a small amount about Dervish, and 22 to 1 to
1001. about Wild Huntsman.
BURG-HLEY STAKES.
2to 1 agst Chief Justice (taken).
4to 1 agst Allegro (taken).
GOODWOOD STAKES.
9to 2 agst Hobbyhorse (taken).
Bto 1 agst Joe Miller (taken).
10 to 1 agst Vindex (taken).
11 to 1 agst Muscovite (taken).
12 to 1 agst Haricot (taken).
12 to 1 agst Trifle (taken).
20 to 1 agst Goorkah (taken and offered).
500 to 400 on Vindex agst Goorkah (taken).
DERBY.
12 to 1 agst Autocrat (taken).
20 to 1 agst Dervish (taken).
22 to 1 agst The Wild Huntsman (taken).
28 to 1 agst Boiardo (take 30 to 1).

continue the committee for another year, otherwise he
should have objected to the bill.
Lord PALMERSTON said next year he intended to
bring in a bill for the permanent continuance of the com-
mission, with an infusion of the representative principle.
After a few words from Mr. FREWEN,
The bill was read a second time, and ordered to be com-
mitted.

The Sheep, &c., Contagious Diseases Prevention Bill was
read a second time, and ordered to be committed.
ASSISTANT-JUDGE (MIDDLESEX SESSIONS)

On the motion for the third reading of this bill, •
Mr. ALCOCK moved as an amendment that the bill be
read a third time that day six months, as the people of Sur-
rey thought the judge was already paid most handsomely,
considering the honourable position which the office gave
him. (Hear, hear.)
Sir DE L. EVANS was never more surprised in his life
than when he heard of the introduction of this bill ; for it
would be in the recollection of the house that it was only a
short time ago that he brought the conduct of this judge
under the notice of Parliament with reference to the case
of Mary Hill, and then not all the adroitness, and all the
talent, and all the pleasantry of the noble lord at the head
of the Home Department could get rid of the bad impres-
sion which the conduct of the learned gentleman created in
the minds of hon. members. (Hear.) And yet within
three months after that occurrence the house was asked to
increase the learned gentleman's salary, thus as it were
passing a vote of confidence in the judge, and stultifying
its own previous decision. (Hear.) The eccentricities and
peculiarities which characterised the administration of
Justice in the learned judge's court were too well known
to need recapitulation ; but nevertheless there were one or
two instances of scenes in the court which he must be per-
mitted briefly to refer to. He held in his hand a report of
the proceedings in the Middlesex Court, wherein it was
stated that a person was brought before this gentleman to
be re-examined, and he told the accused that he was con-
vinced he was a thief, although there was no evidence ad-
duced against him, nor had any trial taken place. (Hear,
hear.) Immediately another prisoner was brought before
him, a woman who was not blessed with handsome fea-
tures, and the learned judge becoming jocular upon the vil-
lanous character of her countenance, a juryman was in-
duced to ask whether the woman was to be tried according
to her physiognomy or according to the evidence. (A laugh.)
Scenes of ,this unseemly nature were constantly taking
place in the court over which this gentleman presided, and
they did not always partake of the ludicrous—since in two
cases where an acquittal had taken place the judge went
the length of pronouncing the parties to he guilty in spite
of the verdict of the jury to the contrary. (Hear.) Now,
ho would ask the house to add these cases to the medium
instance of the poor woman who had three years' transpor-
tation clapped on to her sentence for simply using an offen-
sive expression, and then to say whether they could with
common decency pass this bill ? A There was, however,
another case to which he must call attention, in the hope
that the noble lord at the head of the Home Department
would be enabled to give some satisfactory account of it to
the house. It might be entirely unfounded, for aught that
ho knew to the contrary, but at the same time it was to be
found in the published reports of the trials of this gentle-
man's court, and he should treat it as a fact unless it was
contradicted by the noble lord. It occurred on the 22d of
June 1852, and was the case of a man named James, who
was Charged with having stolen a purse containing 1/. ls.
6d. For this, on being found guilty, he was sentenced to
ten years' transportation.
Lord PALMERSTON was sorry to interrupt the hon.
member, but he found that an understanding had been
come to with an hon. baronet opposite, that this bill should
not be discussed until Thursday. It would perhaps be
convenient, therefore, if the debate was adjourned until
then. (Cries of " No, no," and "Go on."
Sir De L. EVANS said he could not consent to this
delay without concluding the only other statement of im-
portance that he had to make with reference to this bill.
(Hear, hear.) Well, then, this man was said to have been
sentenced to lA years' transportation. Certainly a very
severe punishment, considering the insignificant nature of
the offence, and upon hearing the sentence the man, who
was of a rather violent temper, somewhat after the man-
ner of Mary Hill, let fly a penny ink-bottle at the judge—
(a laugh) —who thereupon, without any trial whatever, or
or without going through any legal:proceetlings, sentenced
him to fivo years' additional transportation. (Hear, hear.)
He would say no more at present upon this to him painful
topic, but before this bill passed, be begged the noble lord
to inform the house whether what he had stated was a fac
or not. (Hear, hear.)