The Sun.
London, England, 1853-07-19 00:00:00

INDIA BILL.

The house then went into committee on the India Bill.
Clauses 15 to 22 were agreed to.
On clause 22, which refers to the appointment of legis-
lative councillors to be added to the Council of India for
making laws and regulations, and empowers the Court of
Directors, if they should think it expedient, to add, under
the control of the Government, two persons, having been
ten years in the civil service, to the Legislative Council.
Sir H. MADDOCK said ho objected to the number of
councillors to be appointed, on account of the expense.
From his experience of the Council of India, he was of
opinion that there was not enough of business to occupy
any number of gentlemen during the whole course of the
year. But if they were going to insist on the appointment
of so numerous a council, then he was of opinion and should
propose that three persons so appointed should be European
or native Indian subjects of her Majesty and in the service
of her Majesty or of the company. Complaints had been
made in petitions to Parliament by the natives of India
that their laws and religious usages had been infringed
upon notwithstanding they were guaranteed by acts of
Parliament. Now, he believed that if well-informed native
gentlemen were appointed on the council they would be
able to argue their own case, and would be able to prevent
the recurrence of such acts as they complained of. He
also proposed to vest in the Governor-General the power of
dispensing with the services of any of the members of the
said Legislative Council, and from time to time to dissolve
the said council whenever there should be, in his opinion,
no necessity for the assembly of all or any portion of the
said legislative councillors.
Mr. HUME said that before that motion was put he
had an amendment to propose—namely, that of the coun-
cillors to be appointed ono of them to be a Hindoo and
the other a Mahomedan. Some persons thought that the
natives had not conducted themselves so well in other
situations that they should be appointed to the Legislative
Council. He differed very much from those persons, be-
cause when he was in India he was as well and faithfully
served by natives as ever he was in England. He believed
that if a Hindoo and Mahomedan were appointed it would
tend to give confidence to the natives of the country, and
would prevent those mistakes with respect to their customs
and usages which led to so much mischief.
Sir H. MADDOCK said he should be glad to adopt the
amendment of the hon. member for Montrose or his own,
as the President of the Board of Control should consider
best. But, with reference to what fell from the hon.
member (Mr. Hume) with regard to the evidence before
the Indian committee, he wished to say that though
there was a difference of opinion as to admitting
natives into the councils generally, yet he was not
aware that any of the evidence given went further than
this ; that they would be useless. He believed that two
or three native gentlemen associated with seven or eight
English gentlemen would have much weight in a council.
The main reason for which ho asked a consideration of this
matter was, that if it was desired to inspire the people of
India with a belief that we were interested in their welfare
and were anxious that they should have an opportunity of
declaring their feelings and advocating their interests, it
would be only an act of wisdom and justice to place two
native gentlemen in the Legislative Council. He would
not place them in the Executive Council, for be believed
that the executive and the officers of the army should be
English, and that the civil service should also be English,
and a close service, and that no natives should be admitted
into it.

Sir R. INGLIS said there would bo a difficulty in select-
ing natives for these offices. From what class were you to
take the Hindo, and from what sect the Mahommedan ? He
believed that as machknowledge of Indian affairs, literature
and law was to be obtained in the council from English gen-
tlemen who were members of it.

Sir C. WOOD said there were two questions now for '
consideration—the proposition of the hon. member for
Rochester, with regard to the number of the Legislative
Council ; and that of his hon. friend the member for Mon-
trose, who, in addition to the twelve members propoLei by
the bill, wished an addition of two natives. He agreed
with the hou. member for Rochester, that the government
of India must be despotic, and that was the principle the
bill intended to carry out. As regarded the natives, he
hoped that by increased education and intercourse with
Europeans, they would soon acquire their share in the go-

_
vern went of India. The evidence before the committee, and
especially that of Mr. Halliday, went to show that the
character of the native judges had greatly improved, and
the tenor of the whole of the evidence was, that the ap-
pointment of natives to offices was increasing all over
India ; but that the time had not come when they should
be admitted into the Legislative Council. So far as con-
ciliating the good opinion of the natives, he did not think
that anything would be gained by putting two natives into
the council. If the iatives were not fitted for admission
into the civil service, as the hon. member for Rochester
said, were they fit for admission into the Legislative Coun-
cil? The evidence before the committee wont to this, that
by means of increased education the natives were becoming
more fit for employment in important offices in the service
of the company, and in this he (Sir C. Wood) concurred ;
but it decided that whatever else they were fit for, they
were not fit for the Legislative Council. With regard to
the number of the council all the evidence agreed in this,
—that there should be a council of twelve, including gen-
tlemen from all the presidencies, which was an important
and necessary addition. He did not think it would be
wise to increase the number of the Executive Council, but
it would be very advisable to have the information in the
Legislative Council which gentlemen from all the presi-
dencies could afford. A question had been raised whether
it was advisable to revise the law commission in India.
He thought the best course to proceed was as the bill pro-
posed. He did not think it advisable either to decrease or
add to the numbers of the Legislative Council.
Lord STANLEY was as desirous as any one to see native
talent admitted to the highest offices in India, but he saw
great difficulty in doing it in the way proposed by Mr.
Hume. He feared that the seats in the Legislative Council
proposed to be opened to natives would not be given as the
reward of merit but as a matter of favour by the Govern-
ment. (Hear, hear.) It was not desirable to place the
natives in these high offices without they had the oppor-
tunity of qualifying themselves by filling lower positions.
He had therefore no alternative but to vote for the clause
as it stood.

Lord JOCELYN thought it desirable that the highest
offices should be open to the natives, but could not concur
in the propriety of giving those appointments to tho Go-
vernor-Geperal. Though concurring in its principle, he
could not support the amendment. He hoped the time
was not far distant when they should be able to give their
Indian fellow•subjects a share in the government of that
country. _ _

Mr. BLACKETT said he should support the amend-
ment. The employment of natives in the Government had
been recommended by Lord Elphinstone and by Lord El-
lenborough, than whom no one was a more determined
advocate of English supremacy.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that to introduce a Hindoo
or a Mussulman into the Legislative Council, would be
most distasteful to India generally.
Mr. MANGLES said there was no single native to be
found in India who could be considered a representative of
the Indians generally. There was not the smallest nation.
ality or community among them. There were hundreds
of Europeans in the service of the company who knew no
more about India than did the natives themselves. Had
natives been in the council at the time, they would have
opposed the abolition of suttees by Lord Wm. Bentinck.
(Hear.) They would also have opposed that humane mea-
sure of Lord Wellesley, by which the destruction of chil-
dren was prevented. He would give the natives large
prizes in the judicial and other departments; but they
would not be fit, for many years, for legislative employ.
ment ; and it would- be a positive unkindness to them to
place them in such offices.
Mr. H. D. SEYMOUR thought that a heavy charge had
been brought against the company, in regard to their neg-
lect of the employment of the natives ; and that that
charge had not been answered. The right hon. baronet
(Sir J. Graham) had had the candour to confess in his
speech on this bill, that the object of the Government was
to get plenty of places in India for the middle classes of
this country ; but he (Mr. Seymour) thought that the
middle class would have sufficient morality and virtue to
repudiate this bait to continue British despotism in India.
Such a system as was pursued by the rulers of India,
in withholding all offices from Indians had never been
pursued by the worst tyrants and conquerors in the whole
history of the country. He denied that the evidence
taken by the committee justified the arguments used and
the plan proposed by tho right hon. gentleman (Sir C.
Wood). The evidence went the other way. (The hon.
gentleman quoted instances.) It was a maxim in history
that the conquering nation which did not amalgamate with
the conquered could not endure ; and the future of England
in India was indeed hazardous, if the system she was to
pursue was that vicious and fallacious system sketched that
evening by the right hon. gentleman in opposing this
amendment. Tho hon. gentleman then proceeded to make
general observations on the bill, and was finally stopped by
angry cries of " divide."
Sir H. MADDOCK (who spoke amidst much impatience)
expressed an opinion that the time would ere long come
when it would be necessary to admit natives to assist in
the Legislative Council of India.

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The committee then divided—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority
The amendment was therefore lost,
Clause 22 was then agreed to.
On clause 23,
Mr. lIRIGIIT objected to proceeding further.
Sir C. WOOD said ho only wished to proceed with the
clauses that wore unopposed.
Mr. BRIGHT said if they were unopposed now they
would be unopposed afterwards.
Mr. Hum?, moved that the Chairman report progress.
Ike had been in the house since 12 o'clock.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again on Thursday.
THAMES EMBANKMENT BILL.
On the order of the day for going into committee on
this bill,

1
-129

Sir W. MOLESWORTH said he promised the hon.
member for Honiton to make a statement with regard
to this bill. In 1845, the Royal Commissioners for

Metropolitan Improvements, in their second and fifth
reports recommended that a new park should be formed
in Battersea-fields, and, that, in connection with it a
bridge should be built across the Thames at Chelsea,
and that a new street communicating with Lower
Sloane-street should be made on the embankment
from Vauxhall-bridge to Battersea-bridge, and along
that embankment a road was to be made about two miles
long. IR consequence of this report, in 1846 two acts
were passed, one to make a park in Battersea-fields, and
the other to empower the Commissioners of Works to
make a bridge to Chelsea, and to make an embankment
from Vauxhall to Battersea. For the making of the
bridge and the now street, the commissioners were em-
powered to borrow 120,0001. from the Exchequer Loan
Commissioners, which was to be paid partly by means of a
general rate and partly by contributions from persons
whose property would thus be improved. Those contribu-
tions were not to be commenced till agreements, approved
of by the Treasury, had been entered into by the parties
whose property was to be improved. The time for making
those agreements would expire on the Ist of August next,
and one object of the bill was to extend the time till July
next year. The bridge at Chelsea was in process of con-
struction, but the embankment had not been commenced,
except a portion of it, which had been commenced by an
agreement with Mr. Cnbitt. The estimate for the bridge
was 70,0001., and for the embankment and new rtreet
146,0001., making 216,0001. altogether. It was expected
that 62,0001. would be received partly from persons whose
property would be improved, and partly from the resale of
property along the embankment and the new street. The
next expenditure therefore would be 154,0001., in return
for which it was expected there would be a net income
from tolls on the bridge and from the piers, amounting to
about 6,6001. a year, making a return of about four per
cent. on the outlay. The park of Battersea would be com-
paratively of little use to the inhabitants on the north
bank of the Thames, unless them was a bridge at Chelsea ;
and the bridge would be of little use to it unless approaches
were made to it from the east and west, from. Vauxhall-
bridge and Battersea; and the embankment and roadway
would be of the greatest benefit to the public.
Mr. LOCKE said the observations he made the other
night were not to oppose this bill, but were of a more ex-
tensive character, and intended to apply generally to
schemes which were brought forward without an estimate
of the expense. The estimate in this case was 266,0001.,
but he wished to know if the funds were forthcoming, or
if the parties having property were to have this bill hang-
ing over their heads four years longer, after being threat-
ened with another bill seven years.
Sir DE L. EVANS thought the observations of the hon.
gentleman were entitled to consideration. So far as this
bill went, it was unobjectionable, except as to the tolls
which he should propose to strike out.
sir H. WILLOUGHBY observed that without tolls
they would not be able to get any revenue.
Sir J. V. SHELLEY believed the inhabitants of the
metropolis generally would submit to an improvement
rate if the representative system were introduced, so as to
have a control over the expenditure.
The house then went into committee on the bill, and it
passed through committee without amendment.
Mr. HENLEY objected to the loving of a toll on the
bridge, which he said would be depriving the poor of the
benefit of the park. (Cheers.)

HIG BATES ILL.
This bill was readH aWAY second time and ordered to be com-
mitted on Thursday.
TURNPIKE TRUSTS ARRANGEMENT BILL.
This bill was read a second tirne and ordered to be com-
mitted on Thursday.
TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE BILL.
This bill was read a second time and ordered to be com-
mitted on Thursday.
METROPOLITAN SEWERS ACTS CONTINUANCE
BILL.

-----
On the order of the day for the second reading of this
bill,

Sir J. V. SHELLEY said he understood it was only to
continue the committee for another year, otherwise he
should have objected to the bill.
Lord PALMERSTON said next year he intended to
bring in a bill for the permanent continuance of the com-
mission, with an infusion of the representative principle.
After a few words from Mr. FREWEN,
The bill was read a second time, and ordered to be com-
mitted.

The Sheep, &c., Contagious Diseases Prevention Bill was
read a second time, and ordered to be committed.
ASSISTANT-JUDGE (MIDDLESEX SESSIONS)

BILL.

On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Mr. ALCOCK moved as an amendment that the bill be
read a third time that day six months, as the people of Sur-
rey thought the judge was already paid most handsomely,
considering the honourable position which the office gave
him. (Hear, hear.)
Sir DE.L.EVANS was never more surprised in his life
than when he heard of the introduction of this bill ; for it
would be in the recollection of the house that it was only a
short time ago that he brought the conduct of this judge
under the notice of Parliament with reference to the case
of Mary Hill, and then not all the adroitness, and all the
talent, and all the pleasantry of the noble lord at the head
of the Home Department could get rid of the bad impres-
sion which the conduct of the learned gentleman created in
the minds of hon. members. (Hear.) And yet -within
three months after that occurrence the house was asked to
increase the learned gentleman's salary, thus as it were
passing a vote of confidence in the judge, and stultifying
its own previous decision. (Hear.) The eccentricities and
peculiarities which characterised the administration of
justice in the learned judge's court were too well known
to need recapitulation ; but nevertheless there were one or
two instances of scenes in the court which he must be per-
mitted briefly to refer to. He held in his hand a report of
the proceedings in the Middlesex Court, wherein it was
stated that a person was brought before this gentleman to
be re-examined, and ho told the accused that ho was con-
vinced he was a thief, although there was no evidence ad-
duced against him, nor had any trial taken place. (Hear,
hear.) Immediately another prisoner was brought before
him, a woman who was not blessed with handsome fea-
tures, and the learned judge becoming jocular upon the vil-
lemons character of her countenance, a juryman was in-
duced to ask whether the woman was to be tried according
to her physiognomy or according to the evidence. (A laugh.)
Scenes of this unseemly nature were constantly taking
place in the court over which this gentleman presided, and
they did not always partake of the ludicrous—since in two
cases where an acquittal had taken place the judge went
the length of pronouncing the parties to he guilty in spite
of the verdict of the jury to the contrary. (Hear.) Now,
he would ask the house to add these cases to the medium
instance of the poor woman who had three years' transpor-
tation clapped on to her sentence for simply using an offen-
sive expression, and then to say whether they could with
common decency pass this hill ? There was, however,
another case to which he must call attention, in the hope
that the noble lord at the head of the Home Department
would be enabled to give some satisfactory account of it to
the house. It might be entirely unfounded, for aught that
ho knew to the contrary, but at the same time it was to be
found in the published reports of the trials of this gentle-
man's court, and he should treat it as a fact unless it was
contradicted by the noble lord. It occurred on the 22d of
June, 1852, and was the case of a man named James, who
was harged with having stolen a purse containing IL ls.
6d. For this, on being found guilty, he was sentenced to
ten years' transportation.
Lord PALMERSTON was sorry to interrupt the hon.
member, but he found that an understanding had been
come to with an lion. baronet opposite, that this bill should
not be discussed until Thursday. It: would perhaps be
convenient, therefore, if the debate was adjourned until
then. (Cries of " No, no," and "Go on."
Sir De L. EVANS said he could not consent to this
delay without concluding the only other statement of im-
portance that he had to make with reference to this bill.
(Hear, hear.) Well, then, this man was said to have been
sentenced to 10 years' transportation. Certainly a very
severe punishment, considering the insignificant nature of
the offence, and upon hearing the sentence the man, who
was of a rather violent temper, somewhat after the man-
ner of Mary Hill, let fly a penny ink-bottle at the judge—
(it laugh) —who thereupon, without any trial whatever, or
or without going through any legal proceedings, sentenced
him to five years additional transportation. (Hear, hear.)
He would say no more at present upon this to him painful
topic, but before this bill passed, he begged the noble lord
to inform the house whether what he had stated was a fact
or not. (Hear, hey.)

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the house
divided, when there appeared.—
For the third reading
Against it
Majority .
The bill was consequently thrown out.
BURIAL GROUNDS.

42

-11

Lord PALMERSTON moved for leave to bring in a
bill to authorise the closing of burial grounds in towns.
In reply to a question from Mr. A PELLATT,
Lord PALMERSTON said the object of the bill was
simply to extend to districts beyond the metropolis the
provisions contained in the act of last year, giving power
to the Secretary of State to close churchyards, leaving it
to the parishes to make provision for burial.

, .
Leave was then given, and the bill was brought in and
read a first time.

FACTORY BILL.

Lord PALMERSTON obtained leave to bring in a bill
to limit the hours of employment of children in factories.
Leave having been given, the bill was brought in and
read a first time.
The house adjourned at 20 minutes to 2.

PAIRS ON SUCCESSION TAX BILL.
FOR. ' AGAINST.
Mr. Wm. Brown. Mr. G. Sturt.
Mr. Brand. Mr. Wynn.
Mr. Thompson (Aberdeen). Sir. F. Thesiger.
Col. Tynte. Mr. Knight.
Mr. Kingscote. Sir Wm. Codrington.
Mr. Heard. Sir Glynne Welby.
Mr. Rich. Lord Wm. Graham.
Mr. Benbow. Mr. Corry.
Mr. Elliot. Mr. T. Baring.
Mr. P. Scrope. Mr. G. Dundas.
Mr. E wart. Mr. Fellowes.
Col. Peel. Lord Elmloy.
Sir Robert Price. Mr. E. Vivian.
Mr. Glyn. Mr. Cairns.

PAIRS.-Mr. Bennet paired off in favour of Mr. Ball's
motion on the malt duties on Tuesday last with Mr. Milner
Gibson ; Mr. Mundy paired in favour of Mr. Malins's
amendment on the timber clause in the Succession Duties
Bill with Mr. Hastings Russell ; Hon. A. Ponsonby and
Lord R. Grosvenor for Government, with Colonel Blair
and Mr. Knightley against, from 8 till 10 last evening.
The Hon. G: Byng has paired with Sir Goo. Foster from
July 18 for the remainder of the session.

PLYMOUTH GARRISON, 11Ionday.—The 50th Regiment
(Queen's Own), under Colonel Sidley, is now barracked
entire in this citadel. The head-quarters of the 93d
Highlanders, under Colonel Rothe, are at Dcvonport ; a
detachment, consisting of Captain Shelton's Company,
No. 1, of the 93d, and Captain Fraser's Company, No.
3, under command of Major Banner is stationed at Mill-
bay ; and Captain Maxwell's Company, No. 7, is sta-
tioned at the convict establishment, Dartmoor. The
fortifications at St. Nicholas Island, Plymouth, and at
Pendennis Castle, Falmouth, formerly occupied by de-
tachments of the line from this garrison, are now in
charge of artillerymen. Captain Price's Light Company
35th (Royal Sussex) Regiment, with Lieutenant Harris,
Ensign Tennant, and 72 rank and file, from Dartmoor,
left this morning at 7 o'clock by the South Devon Rail-
way for Chobham, under the superintendence of Captain
Wetherall, Brigade Major. The whole of the 7th Royal
Fusiliers and of the 35th have now departed from the
Plymouth garrison for the encampment. The 50th,
which arrived here on Friday, left Slough at 6 30 a.m.,
and arrived at Bristol at 1 30 p.m. ; left at o 10, and
arrived at Exeter at 7 ; left at 7 15, and arrived at Ply-
mouth at 10 15.