The Sun.
London, England, 1865-02-17 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF LORDS-LAST EVENING.
ILLICIT DISTILLATION IN IRELAND.

Lord CLEMENTS moved an address for returns of the
names of the officers the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland had
considered it necessary to appoint for the purpose of carry-
ing out the provisions of the several acts for the suppres-
sion of illicit distillation in Ireland within the counties of
Clare and Donegal.
Lord GRANVILLE objected to the return that it would
be only a list of the constabulary in those counties, as the
whole of the force were empowered to act in cases of vio-
lation of the revenue laws.

Lord CHELMSFORD thought the question deserved
consideration, as the intention of the Legislature was that
the revenue officers should have different duties and powers
than those of the constabulary.
Lord GRANVILLE defended the present system on the
ground of its superior economy anal efficiency.
The motion was withdrawn.

Lord LYVEDEN deferred his qUestion on the defences
of Canada till Monday next.
Their lordships adjourned at 20 minutes past 6.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—LAST EVENING.
The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock.

NEW MEMBER.

Mr. OHEETHAM took the oaths and his seat on his elec-
tion for the borough of Salford.

COURTS OF JUSTICE BUILDING BILL

On the motion for the second reading of this bill, there
was discussion, in the course of which

Mr. BAILLIE expressed a hope that in the erection of
these new Courts provision would be made for the
erection of model lodging-houses for those poor persohs
who would be driven out of their tenements. The neglect
of such provision was a disgrace to the country, and he
alluded to the different system that prevailed in France
under the rule of the present Emperor.
Colonel SYKES bore personal testimony, from experi-
ence, to the inconvenience of the present courts.
Mr. WALPOLE objected to the plan proposed, which
he did not think would effect the object which was con-
templated. He thought it would be better to make
provision for the concentration of the courts by the erec-
tion of buildings that would harmonise with the Houses of
Parliament. They would have to incur unnecessary ex-
pense for courts, some of which existed already.
Mr. MALINS totally differed from Mr. Walpole on the
subject of the site, and was perfectly satisfied with the
financial part of a scheme which, he thought, did the Go-
vernment great honour.
The AT T ORNEY-GENERAL said, that if the right hon.
gentleman the member for the University of Cambridge had
bean present on Friday last he would have found that the
questions he now put were then answered by anticipation,
but he was glad to take the opportunity of answering them
again. With regard to the site, the right hon. gentleman
had evidently formed an opinion very different from that
expressedby the other persons who had given their attention
to the subject. The want of adequate space at Westminster
was quite conclusive against the idea of concentrating the
courts of justice there, because that would perpetuate one
of the greatest evils they wished to remedy by concentra-
tion, viz., separating the courts from those parts of the town
where barristers had their chambers and solicitors generally
had their offices. He pointed out the great loss of time
and expense caused by such separation to barristers and
solicitors, and said that expense was only a slight approxi-
mation of the loss sustained by the suitors. With regard
to the House of Lords and the Privy Council, he entirely
agreed with the hon. and learned member for Wallingford.
There was no magic in Downing-street, and he did not
doubt that the Privy Council might find a chamber in
the new Palace of Justice. The population who
would be displaced by the buildings he admitted ought not
to be forgotten, but as the number of houses to be taken
was only 400, the population could not bo nearly so large
as an hon. member had represented, and experience had
shown that the law of supply and demand would furnish
people so displaced with lodgings and houses elsewhere.
He thought that, in point of economy, instead of perpetu-
ally patching up the existing courts, it would be better to
have a good building at once. He agreed with his hon. and
learned friend the member for Wallingford that the pre-
sent buildings were devoid of all the accessories of a court
of justic, and he thought it most extraordinary that, as re-
garded some of these courts, the nation should be tenant-
at-will of the private Society of Lincoln's-inn. With re-
spect to the question of cost, he thought that the estimate
£750,000 might be reasonably relied upon as the cost of
the buildings upon the proposed site. The property had
been surveyed by the late Sir Charles Barry, and by Mr
Abraham in 1861, and at the request of the Treasury Mr.
Pennethorn, the architect of the Board of Works, had
valued house by house last year. Mr. Hunt, the surveyor,
also went carefully into the subject, and he was satisfied
that the estimate of £750,000 might be relied upon. With
regard to the suitors' fund, that consisted of surplus divi-
dends and surplus fees, the result of the management of
the funds of the Court of Chancery by the State under
acts of Parliament, and it represented the aggregate
profit of past management. Tho funds which would
remain after what it was proposed to take would be amply
sufficient to answer all the demands of suitors. Then came
the question of the charges upon these funds, which repre-
sented a saving of the State for the management of the
funds of the auditors. It would require in round numbers
the income of about 1/ million ; of that they took only ono
million, leaving half a million in order to provide for the
existing annual charges, without having recourse to the
public purse. These annual charges consisted of compen-
sation and terminable annuities, which were falling in at
' the rate of £3,500 per annum, and which would entirely
expire in about 18 years if not redeemed ; but by this bill
they intended to give power to the Lord Chancellor to buy
up these pensions from those who might be desirous of
selling them. Mr. Finlaison, the actuary, had valued
these terminable annuities at £380,000, but taking them at
half a million they would have not only a reserve of
half a million, but a further sum of £lOO,OOO arising from
an accumulated surplus. Now they had satisfied them-
selves and the treasury were perfectly satisfied that a
million of stock and the accumulated surplus would be
amply sufficient to meet the whole of the compensa-
tions until the time when they would finally fall in. But
if no terminable compensation should be redeemed, and
if the whole should be paid out of the ono million stock,
the result at the end of 18 years would be that there
would remain £150,000 stock for the reduction of the suitor's
fees. Under these circumstances there could be no doubt
that the State would take no charge on itself, except the
£200,000, which would be a moderate sum for the sites
which would remain, and the rents now paid by the Govern-
ment, and which, of course, would be saved. His right hon.
friend (Mr. Walpole) had suggested that this fund belonged
to the suitors, and that it should be appropriated to the
legitimate purposes of reducing the fees. Now he had
already stated that the words, " belonging to the suitors,"
conveyed no meaning to his mind. (Hear, hear.) If they
meant an individual right to money, it would involve a
spoliation, but there was no human being who had any
legal or moral right to one shilling of this money. (Hear,
hear.) It was money belonging to no person, and the ques-
tion was, whether the State had made an appropriation of
it which it could not revoke. But he contended that there
had been no appropriation at all, and they now proposed to
apply it in the same manner as it had been partially used
before, only for a far more important purpose. As to the
fees charged upon suitors, they amounted at present to
only about 8 per cent. upon the whole cost of litigation,
and if the fund were applied to their reduction the fees
would amount to about 4 per cent. ; but the solicitors who
gave evidence stated that the suitors, by the carrying
out of this proposed scheme, would be gainers by ten
times the amount. (Hear, hear.) His hon. and learned
friend tho member for Cambridge University tho other
evening said that the report of last year was at variance
with this scheme, but upon that point he must correct his
hon. and learned friend, and state that Mr. Field, Mr.
Rogers, and Mr. Cookson were not opponents of this mea-
sure for the concentration of the courts of law and equity,
but they thought that their proposition of charging a per
tentage upon the cash balances would supply the fund
necessary for the payment of the annuities and compensa-
tions. Ho would ask the house not to allow themselves to
be led astray by any argument for delay, but that they
would give a fair.and candid consideration to the scheme,
which he felt sure would not involve any charge upon the
State beyond that which had been avowed. (Hear, hear.)
Sir F. GOLDSMID said that there was only one point
to which he wished to call attention, and that was, that
judging from experience in reference to the improvements
made at the East end of London, he believed that the result
of this measure would be to remove a large number of
persons, and to drive them into much more crowded
dwellings. (Hear, hear.) That should be provided for
when they went into committee on the bill.
Tho bill was then read a second time.

COURT OF CHANCERY, IRELAND (No. 2), BILL.
Mr. WHITESIDE moved for leave to bring in a bill to
alter the constitution and amend the practice and course of
proceeding in the High Court of Chancery in Ireland.
After a review of past abortive attempts at the reform of
the Irish Court of Chancery, he developed the scheme pro-
posed in this bill, the main features of which, as regarded
the constitution of the court, were the abolition of the
Masters and the appointment of a Vice-Chancellor to be
taken from one of three judges of the Landed Estates
Court. He explistined the amendments proposed in the
practice and proceedings of the court.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not oppose the in-
troduction of the bill, and leave was given.
Mr. CARDWELL moved for leave to bring in a bill to
provide for the annexation of the territory of British
Kaffraria to the Cape Colony, setting forth the considera-
tions which rendered the annexation of this territory ex-
pedient and politic, though, for reasons assigned by the
Governor, the measure had not the formal concurrence of
the Cape Colony.
Leave was given.
Sir C. O'LOGHLEN obtained leave to bring in a bill to
declare and amend the law in :relation to the keeping
together and discharge of juries in criminal cases.
The house adjourned at a quarter before eight .
ght o'clock.