The Sun.
London, England, 1853-07-19 00:00:00

NATIONAL EDUCATION IN IRELAND.

The Earl of DONOUGHMORE rose to call the at-
tention of the house to the present condition of the
system of national education in Ireland, and to move for
a copy of the resolution lately adopted by the Board o
National Education excluding the use of certain books
from the schools under their management ; and to ask
hether, in consequence of such resolution, any and
what members had resigned their seats at the board ?
The system of national education in Ireland had been
originally founded by the noble earl late at the head of
the Government, and was, as expressed by him, intended
to be a system of united secular and separate religious
instruction. Immediately after its first organization the
board had commenced the publication of a number of
works which could not be too highly praised, and which
had since then not only been used in the schools under
the board, but also in schools in this country and the
colonies. No objection whatever had been taken, or
could be taken, to the system of secular education as
carried out by the board, but certainly objections were
taken by men of very high character against the nature,
amount, and substance of the religious instruction. The
commissioners had published works both of secular and
religious instruction. They had published four books,
or volumes—two consisting of selections from the holy
Scriptures, one volume of " Sacred Poetry," and the fourth
volume being the work of the most rev. prelate Arch-
bishop Whateley "On the Truth of Christianity." Soon
after the system of the society was established, it was
found that a large and influential section of the clergy
objected to it. Their objections rested upon the fact
that religious and secular instruction were not made
separate. The use of these religious books, though not
enjoined by the board, was recommended by them. A
rule was established that all ministers of religion, of
whatever denomination, whether they had subscribed to
the school or not, should have access to the school one
day in the week to communicate religious instruction to
the children whose parents belonged to their particular
denomination of Christians. The result of the rule had
consequently been, to make religious instruction under
the national system in that country, to consist in
the schools being altogether conducted, in a great
majority of instances, by the Roman Catholic priest ac-
cording to his form, in some of the schools by the Pres-
byterian minister according to his form, and in a very
few of the schools by the Protestant clergyman accord-
ing to his form ; so that, except in the schools imme-
diately under the management of the board itself, there
was but one description of religious instruction given in
any one school. One of the objections made was, that
the Scripture extracts were not in general use. The
answer given by the commissioners in their report of
1836 was, that they were persuaded the fact were other-
wise. They stated that their inspectors were then out
upon their annual inspection, and that they had already
reported on 352 schools, and had found the children
reading the extracts in 285 of them. Those schools
were not particularly selected for visitation ; it might
therefore be expected that the extracts were read in an
equal proportion of the schools which remained to be
inspected, and therefore that they were used in more
than four-fifths of the whole number. It was therefore
perfectly evident that up to 1836 religious instruction,
so far as Scripture instruction was concerned, was in-
tended to be general in all the schools. This showed
that the intention and wish of the managers at that
time were, that a certain amount of religious instruction
should be given with secular instruction. If their lord-
ships wished to improve the system of education in Ire-
land,—if, in their opinion, it was desirable to give all
parties an equal share of the public money for the pur-
poses of education,—let all restrictions be removed, let
no rules be established ; but let every party give what-
ever instruction they pleased. It was absolutely
necessary that the people should have instruction, and
he would make any sacrifice to attain that end ; but
don't hold up a system which professed to give a cer-
tain guarantee, while it gave no guarantee what-
ever as regarded the spiritual education of the Ro-
man Catholic population. The question was whe-
ther those religious books to which he had re-
ferred, and the Scriptural extracts, had been pro-
hibited from the schools; if the had, the whole
foundation of the system was violated ; in point of
fact, there was no longer apy system ; and it would be
much better, so far as the Government was concerned,
that the future course of education should be simply
permissive. There was another question he wished to
ask the noble earl (Aberdeen)—namely, whether two
eminent members of the Board of Education in Ireland
had resigned their situations on the board in conse-
quence of what had happened ? He would wish to speak
of them with all the respect that was due to their cha-
racter and station. The most rev. prelate (the Arch-
bishop of Dublin) had been a very important member of
the board, and had made great exertions for the exten-
sion of the national system of education in Ireland, but
his hopes had evidently been disappointed, and it must
be admitted that the system he advocated had been
broken in upon. The Government must, under these
circumstances, consider it necessary to devise some other
mode, and see whether some system of education could
not be adopted to meet the views of all parties.
The Earl of ABERDEEN said, the noble earl had
alluded to the origin and progress of the system of educa-
tion in Ireland, but in every respect coneerning that
system his observations had been by no means correct.
The system, when first established, was distinctly that of
a secular, as distinguished from a religious and a secular
education united. It was established by the noble earl
opposite (Earl Derby) in consequence of a recommen-
dation by a committee of the House of Commons, who,
in a report in the year 1828, actually made that recom-
mendation. It is true that shortly afterwards a certain
amount of religious education was engrafted upon the
system, as a joint education. Instead of all reFgious
instruction being given separately, there was a cei
amount of religious education that was united with
secular instruction. That was in consequence of the
opinion and counsel of two members of the boaed—
the most reverend prelate who was at the head of
the board, and Archbishop Whateley ; but it was ob-
vious that a system of a united education, imparted to
Protestants and Catholics, must always be of a ve-if
limited nature. Shoi tly after the, institution of the
system those two persons who were the cause of the in-
troduction of the united elements of religious and secular
education agreed upon certain Scriptural extracts ; then
upon a volume of sacred poetry ; and, finally, upon a
work which no doubt set forth the evidence of the truth.
of Christianity, and which might be thought fit for chil-
dren to read, but a work, however, which he should
say might be studied with advantage by grown men.
That work " On the Truth of Christianity" was always
very much objected to by the Roman Catholic priests,
to whom the management of the schools was intrusted.
A rule was consequently laid down, that if any person—
if any parent objected to the use of any of these book's,
the book so objected to was then to be transferred to and
used at a separate time for religious instruction, and was
no longer to be used in the system of joint religious edu-
cation. The noble earl was wrong in the supposition
that no Scriptural extracts were used in the schools.
There had been no question raised about rejecting that
work f•om the schools. The volume of " Sacred Poetry"
was also used in the schools. The only work in question
was that of the most rev, prelate, in which he taught the
reasons for the truth of Christianity. That had always
been objected to very generally by the Roman Catholics,

who were interested in the schools and their manage-
ment. The board had at length determined not any
longer to use that work as part of the joint religious
education, but it was still used in the separate religious
education. The origin of this unfortunate occurrence,
which he was sure every man must lament, and which

had arisen in the government and administration of the
board, had taken place in consequence of this circum-

stance :—ln one of the district schools in Clonmcl,
under the management of two Roman Catholics, they
rejected the work on Scriptural evidence. That was
in the year 1849. In coneequenco of one of the rules

under Which the system was administered—it occurred
that, where there were Catholics in the school whose

parents objected to the use of these books, they were
transferred to the separate religious instead of being
used in the joint religious education. This took place
at the district school ocf Clonmel. The most rev. prelate
objected to this, and the matter was reported to the
board, whose attention was drawn to the facts by their
secretary. He thought it was in last September that
the most rev. prelate was made aware that one of the
books which had been used continually had been, by
the order of the two commissioners alluded to, trans-
ferred to the separate religious education. The most
rev. prelate objected to that, and insisted on the prac•
tice of reading the book being continued, it being, he
must say, however admirable it was in itself, not
such
as was received by the Roman Catholic community in
the same manner as the other books to which he had re-
ferred, such as the Scripture lessons and the volume
of " Sacred Poetry." But the most rev. prelate insisted
that the books should be retained, and many meetings
took place, and much discussion arose on
of the subject.
He must say, however much he approved book,
and however much he might regret its exclusion from
the combined religious education—knowing that it had
been used with good results,
—that the most rev, prelate
founded his objection to the exclusion on the grounds
which appeared to be scarcely tenable. The most rev.
prelate denied the power cf the board to reject any book
which they had once authorized to be used. He thought
that this would scarcely tally with the letter of the noble
earl (the Earl of Derby) to the Duke of Leinster, in
which he said that the commissioners exercised a most
entire control over all the books to be used in the schools.
It would, ho thought, be impossible to maintain that
those who had the power to introduce the books had
not also the power to withdraw them ; and lie contended
that the power of the board could scarcely be disputed.
But, so far as he could collect from all he had heard on
the subject, the most rev. prelate rested his sole objec-
tion on that ground. Having stated that the noble earl
opposite was entirely mistaken in supposing that the sys-
tem of joint religious education was no longer retained
in the schools, he would now refer to the liberal speech re-
cently delivered by his noble friend, in which he was sup-
posed to have maintained the impossibility of any system
of 'education existing without religious instruction. That
was very true so far as England was concerned, but if a
Catholic population existed in England to the same ex-
tent as in Ireland, undoubtedly a different system of
education would be indispensable. But it was, as he
was sure world be admitted by the noble earl who in-
troduced the system, entirely owing to the peculiar cha-
I meter of the population or Ireland, and not from any

preference to the particular system of education that he
introduced the plan to which his name was attached,
and which had conferred such immense advantages oa
the people of Ireland. He did not know anything which
had proved so great a blessing to the population of Ire-
land as the national system of education ; and, notwith-
standing the differences to which he had adverted, he
still trusted that nothing would take place to diminish
• the advantages or to limit the extension of a system
which had done so much good, and from which so many
more advantages were to be expected. He admitted
C' hat a great difference of opinion had taken place, and he
was sorry that he did not perceive any great probability
of an understanding being arrived at. However, although
he could not anticipate that this understanding could be
effected, as yet the most rev. prelate had not ceased to
be a member of the board. He had no communication
with any other members of the board, and therefore he
did not know the intentions of any one. At present be
was quite unable to say more, though he admitted the
great differences of opinion which existed ; and he cer-
tainly sould not go so far as to say that the most rev.
prelate was not disposed at the present moment to re-
main a member of the board. With regard to the motion
of the noble earl, there could be no objection to the pro-
duction of the resolution, seeing that it would, in the
ordinary course of business, have been shortly laid on
the table. He had stated the sole ground of the diffe-
rences which existed, and, fully perceiving the conse-
quences to which they might lead, still be could see no-
thing in them to cause him to augur at all unfavourably
of the ultimate result and continued successful progress
of the system so happily introduced.
In answer to a question from the Earl of HARROWBY,
The Earl of ABERDEEN explained that the eighth
rule had been very recentlyaltered, on the motion of one of
the commissioners, in such a way that instead of the
book complained of being transferred to the separate edu-
cation, the child whose parent had complained of the
book would be removed to the separate class.
Lord MONTEAGLE, who had evidently misunder-
stood the explanation just given by the Earl of Aberdeen,
argued against a system by which the parent of a singele,.
child possessed a veto, or the power of blackballing any
book. Each religious party would put a veto on the
books of the other, and the system would be thereby re-
duced to a perfect caput mo. tunes.
The Earl of ABERDEEN here interrupted the noble
lord, and again explained that that was under the old
system ; and that under the new, instead of the book, the
child would be removed to the separate class.
Lord MONTEAGLE was very glad to hear the ex-
planation of the noble earl, and expressed himsee7
satisfied with the alteration. Alluding, then, to the
particular case under discussion, he declared that he be-
lieved the board possessed the power to reject any book.
Excellent book as it was, it might very reasonably he
objected to as a schoolbook, and the board had certainly
not exceeded their powers in excluding it.
The Earl of DERBY said, that if the question were
as had been stated by the noble earl opposite, and ac
had been repeated by his noble friend on the cross
benches, he should have dissented from the grounds on
which it was said that the most rev. prelate had thought
fit to object ; but, although he spoke under the correc-
tion of the noble earl, who was so much better acquainted
wish the subject than he possibly could be, he was very
much I leaid that the noble earl had wholly mistaken the
effect which had been attributed to the resolution allude I
to, and that,,so far from that resolution being of the
character which the noble earl had ascribed to it, it
affirmed precisely the contrary. In the first place the
noble earl, at the commencement of his observations, had
stated that in the first instance it was intended that the
system of education should be a combined one, uniting
secular and separate religious instruction.. To a cer-
tain extent, undoubtedly, that was the case ; but the
noble earl had fallen into a slight error when he stated
that the introduction of the Scripture extracts and pf
other religious works in the hours of combined religious
instruction was au afterthought, and not included in the
original plan. If the noble earl would refer to the para-
graph which had been quoted, he would then see that it
was intended from 'the very first that the religious in-
struction should to a certain extent be imparted during
the hours of combined education. The passage in the
paragraph was as follows :--" Although it is not de-
signed to exclude from the list of books for the combined
instruction such portions of sacred history or religious
and moral books which have been approved of by the
board, it is to be understood that it is by no means in-
tended to convey a perfect or sufficient religious in-
struction on the days set apart for that purpose."
Therefore, in the first instance, there was intended to be
separate books in every case for separate religious in-
sti action, and, in addition to that, the board reserved to
themselves the discretion of introducing, as shortly after-
wa-ds they did introduce, books which had been com-
piled so that they could not be objected to either by
Roman Catholics or Protestants, which did contain, and
which afforded so long as they were in use a very con-
siderable amount of religious knowledge to Roman Ca-
tholic and to Protestant children sitting in the same
room, and receiving instruction together. That course
was pursued until the year 1844, when the practice was
introduced to which the noble earl bad just adverted.
He alluded to the practice introduced by rule 8. In the
report which was issued by the commissioners in that
year, they stated that they had established a number of
schools, which were attended by thousands of children,
and that they had succeeded in compil;ng several works,
cont.-I-Ging a serious of lessons grounded on Holy Writ,
1 which were used in the general instruction afforded in all
the schools. But in that year, also, and in order to meet
objections which had been raised by several members of
the Roman Catholic community, these books were not
insisted on, but only strongly recommended, and the
role was adopted to which his noble friend had refereel.
That rule was, most unfortunately, worded very am-
biguously. It said, " The commissioners do not insist
on the Scripture lessons being read in any of the
national schools, nor do they allow them to be read
clueing the time of secular or literary instruction"—this,
said the noble lord, was a departure from the original
plan— " in any school attended by children whose parents
or guardians; object to their being so read." In such
cases the commissioners prohibit their use, excepting la
the hours of religions instruction. That resolution wee,
as their lordships would see, unfortunately worded Most
ambiguously. It did not allow the books in question .o
be used in those schools attended by children whe es
parents or guardians objected to their use. Under that
rale it must appear doubtful whether the Scripture , e-
tracts were to be excluded on the objection of the parent
of any single child, or whether that child was to be pro.
tected from the risk of being compelled to read them, by
reeelv:ng permission to leave the room. From 1844
downwards, there had always been, to a certain extent,
a difference of opinion with regard to the construction
of Vint rule ; and the general practice, he believed, hsd
been that protection had been afforded to the child, by
its being permitted to withdraw when these books were
being read. At the same time he must say that, although
the Scripture extracts were read, and were in act a most
essential part of the system pursued in the model school
at Dublin, and which ought therefore to be the model of
all the other schools under the control of the board, he
had good reason to know it had been discovered that
in the model school at Clonmel, which was entirely
undee the control of the commissioners themselves,
these Scripture extracts had been excluded from the
hours of ordinary combined education, Now he thought
that, whatever might be the case with regard to schools
under the management of individuals, it was most
unfortunate that, upon a point of such importance,
any deviation from the ordinary practice should be
allowed in schools under the direct control and manage-
ment of the board, and especially in those schools which
were to be regarded as models for the rest of the coun-
try. Unless he was greatly mistaken—and he received
his information from one of the commissioners—the de-
cision at which the commissioners arrived the other day
was entirely opposed to the sense attached to this rule
by the noble sari opposite. A motion was made at the
board by Mr. Baron Greene, one of the three dissenting
commissioners, to the effect that protection should be
given to the children, and not for the exclusion o books;
but a large majority of the commissioners decided against
Mr. Baron Greene, the late Lord Chancellor Blackburne,
and another commissioner—the most rev. prelate (the
Archbishop of Dublin) not being present—that the rule
should be interpreted according to its strict literal sense.
The consequence was, that the objection of any one
Roman Catholic child would be held sufficient to ex-
clude a book. He could only say that he had this state-
ment from Mr. Blackburne himself, and that the object
of Mr. Baron Greene's resolution was to give to the
rule the sense which the noble earl opposite (the Earl of
Aberdeen), the noble lord (Lord Monteagle), and he
thought the great majority of their lordships would con-
sider the sound and rational construction. Mr. Baron
Greene's resolution WPS, however, negatived by a very
considerable majority. He (the Earl of Derby) consi-
dered, then, that there had been a very important devia-
tion, in a very essential particular, from the original
rale, and it appeared as if there was an influence at
work for the purpose of excluding from the national
bchools, in deference to the opinions of the Roman Ca-
tholic priesthood, all books which give to the system of
education anything of a religious character. If this
wore the ea; e, it would be impossible to resist the force
of an argument which had hitherto been met by the state-
ment that although the religious instruction given might
in itself be insufficient, yet that a. considerable amount
of religious knowledge was imparted in all the schools
to Roman Catholics and Protestants alike, and that for
the purpose of obtaining the great benefit of the union
of children of different persuasions for the purpose
of education it was necessary to abate something of what
would otherwise be considered desirable with regard to
the amount of religious instruction given to Proe ' 'rut
children alone. If the system was to be so altered as
altogether to exclude all religious instruction with res and
to Roman Catholic children frequenting the nath dial
schools, then he must say that one of the great and p .ra-
mount objects contemplated by the original system
would be defeated, and the system would be open to
the objection which he thought could not hitherto be
justly urged against it, that it was entirely and completely
a system of secular education, disregarding religious in-
struction altogether. He would be very glad to find
that the opinion of the noble earl opposite was coerect,
and that would be ascertained when the resolution of the
i board was laid upon the table, and when they found Who
psoposed the resolution, and who composed respectively
1 the majority and the minority. He admitted t 1;- t the
exclusion of a book upon the evidences of Christianity
was not a reason which he would think sufficient
tfor
• breaking up the board ; but, on the other I
hand,_.: the
resolution. was to be regarded in the sense be had
.been
led to believe, and if a prevailing intention was giumng
ground of excluding more and more religions instruction,
of which even now too little was given, he would say
that was a fatal impediment to the working of the sys-
tem, that it must be fatal to its beneficial effects, and
that in such a case those Protestant members of the
board who could not conscientiously assent to a diminu-
tion of the amount of religious instruction given would
not only be justified, but bound to withdraw from a.
system which, from the first, depended upon the mutual

and harmonious working of members of different reli-
gious persuasions, upon the sound sense exercised by both
parties, and upon the balance being iinpartially held be-
tween Protestants and -Roman:Catholics.
The Ear] of ABERDEEN soid, he had in his posses-
sion a copy of the resolution of Mr. Baron Greene, which
was carried, with the exception of the clause relating to
the " Evidences of Christianity." The noble earl read the
resolution, which was to the following effect :
" The commissioners do not insist on the Scripture ex-
tracts, " Lessons on the Truth of Christianity,"or the book of
" Sacred Poetry," being read in any of the national schools;
nor do they allow them to be read as part of the ordinary,
school business, during which all children, of whatever de-
nomination they may be, are required to attend, in any
school attended by children whose parents or guardians
object to their being so read by their children. In such
cases, the commissioners prohibit the use of these books,
except at times set apart for the purpose, either before or
after the ordinary school busines -, and under the following
conditions. Firstly, that no child whose parent or guar-
dian objects shall be required, directly or indirectly, to be
present at such reading. Secondly, that in order that the
child whose parent or guardian objects may be absent at
the reading of the books above specified, public notification
of the time set apart for such reading shall be inserted in
large letters iu the thee-table o the school ; that there
shall be a sufficient interval between the conclusion of the
ordinary school business and the commencement of such
reading; and that the teacher shall immediately, and
beforo its commencement, announce distinctly to the pupils
that any child whose parents or guardians so desire may
leave. Thirdly, that in every such case there shall be an
exclusive time set apart for such reading, sufficient time
being devoted each day to the ordinary school business, in
order that those children who do not join in the reading of
the books may have ample time for literary instruction in
the schools."

The Earl of DERBY observed that, according to the
resolution as it stood, it appeared that, during the hours
of combined instruction the Scripture extracts were not
to be read in the schools in the presence of children whose
parents or guardians objected to their presence during
such reading, and that it would be competent to any
child in the school to object to the Scripture extracts-
being read during the hours of combined instruction.
The consequence would be that those lessons would not
form part of the combined instruction, and that the
parent of any child would have the power of placing a
veto upon the use of the Scripture extracts.
The Earl of HARROWBY was understood to say
that he considered the use of the Scripture extracts was
a main principle of the system of national education in
Ireland.

Lord MONTEAGLE thought it a most objectionable
principle to give the parent of one child the power of
excluding the Scripture extracts from any of the national
schools.

The Earl of DONOUGHMORE said, admitting that
the Established Church of Ireland crd not represent the
great body of the people of that 'country, he thought it
should be treated fairly. He had received a letter from
Ireland, which stated that, a few days ago, in one a the
national schools in that country all the Roman Catholic
children came forward, 'and objected to the reading of the
Scripture extracts, which had heretofore been used in the
school. It appeared to Wm very plain that if the reso-
lution was to be understood as it was explained by the
noble earl opposite, the Roman Catholics would succeed
in carrying their point, for the resolution invited the
opposition of persons who objected to the use of the
Scripture extracts. Taking the case of a school com-
posed almost entirely of Protestants—of. the children of
members of the Established Church and of Presbyterians
—if there was one Roman Catholic child in that school
he might prevent the use of the Scripture extracts during
the hours appointed for combined instruction. He could
only repeat his opinion that this regulation struck at the
root of the whole system.
The resolution was then agreed to.
PUBLIC-HOUSES (SCOTLAND) BILL.

The house then went into committee on this bill.
Lord KINNAIRD said, the measure was similar to
bills which he had brought before their lordships'
house on two former occasions, but which, owing to
the late period at which they were sent down to the
other house, were necessarily abandoned. This bill
had been introduced in the House of Commons by
Mr. F. Mackenzie, who was lately member for Liver-
pool, and had undergone considerable discussion, and
it differed from the former bills in this respect, that it
did not interfere with the courts which granted licen-
ces, but merely enacted certain regulations with
regard to public-houses in Scotland. Unfortunately,
Scotland had obtained great notoriety for intemper-
ance. (A laugh.) He did not mean to say that intem-
perance could be repressed by act of Parliament, but he
thought they might at least diminish the temptations to
intemperance. A. very curious and interesting report
had been drawn up on this subjt,,et by certain gentlemen
in Edinburgh, 200 of whom had devoted their attention
to ascertaining the number of persons in that city who
frequented public-houses on the Sunday. It appeared,
from their investiirrations, that in a population which ac-
cording to the last census numbered 153,680, and was
now perhaps nearly 160,000, the number who went to
public-houses on one Sunday was 41,796. Of this num-
-11,951 were women, 4,631 were children under 14 years
of age, and 3,032 children under eight years of age were
seen to enter public-houses, either to obtain spirits for
themselves, or to convey them away. In Scotland
spirits were sold over the counter by grocers, and the
consequence was most demoralising, because women
would go into a grocer's shop to obtain spirits when they
-would not be seen going into a public-house. - Many
Scotoli artisans had stated that they had found consider-
, able sums set down in their accoants for groceries which
they discovered were charges for whisky supplied to
their wives and children. Me need scarcely say that
the evil arising from this system, which the present
measure was intended to remedy, were very great. The
bill was intended, in the first place, to abolish the pre-
sent system of selling spirits over the counter in grocers'
shops. Another provision of the measure placed the
public-houses—which were now under the supervision
of the Excise authorities, who were generally unwilling
to prosecute—under the regulation of the police. At
present also in Scotland a beer license could not be
granted separately from a spirit license. If a person ob-
tained a beer certificate he had aright to demand a spirit
license. The bill proposed to separate the two, and
enacted that no one certificate should be issued en-
abling persons to sell beer and spirits. It was very de-
sirable to encourage the consumption of beer in Scotland
for a marked difference was observable on the borders
between the whisky-drinking and beer-drinking popula-
tion. Another remedy for intemperance in Scotland
would be the admission of light wines at a small duty.
The bill then passed through committee with some
verbal amendments.

COLONIAL CHURCH REGULATION BILL.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said, their lord-
ships were no doubt aware that ecclesiastital affairs in
some of our colonies were not in a very satisfactory
state, and it was very desirable that some legislation
should taka place which should enable the authorities to
make better rules for the government of the church
there. To accomplish these objects a bill had been
framed which it was hoped would meet with their lord-
ships' approval, and of which he would now move the
second reading. He had heard from a high legal autho-
rity that some alterations might be introduced into the
bill which would render it more acceptable, and more
likely to answer the purpose for which it was intended.
He would therefore now move the second reading of the
bill pro forma ; it would be committed to-morrow in
order to effect the alterations suggested ' • and the dis-
cussion upon the principle of the bill would be postponed
until Thursday next.
The bill was then read a second time pro foinza.
COPYHOLDS BILL.
On the order of the day for ,the recommitment of this
bill,
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, the Copyholds
Act provided, that when any money was paid for the en-
franchisement of copyhold land, it should be either paid
into the Bank of England in the name of the Accountant
of the Court of Chancery, or else should be placed in the
hands of some trustees, and the interest of it paid to the
party whose manor was enfranchised. In the case
manorial
norial
oir
an
ti otrihs the
'solepossoerssiaognaroef.
gate, they had in this way received the interest of
the moneys so
paid for enfranchisement. Under the
act passed the year before last, enabling the Episcopal
and Capitular Commission to enfranchise, the same
process took place, butt with this difference that,
though the money was paid in, as in the other case, in-
stead of the whole of the interest going to the ecclesias-
tical corporation, so much only was paid as was an equi-
valent on a fair calculation for what had been received in
respect to the manor as it stood before enfranchisement,
and the surplus, if any, went to the commissioners for
ecclesiastical purposes. The object of this bill was to
regulate the enfranchisement with respect to these corpo-
rations, and to provide that for the future, with respect
to any enfranchisement entered into by the Capitular
Commissioners, the money should be paid over to the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners, to be applied according to
the provisions of the act.
The bill was then recommitted and the amendments
agreed to.
METROPOLITAN BUILDING ACT FURTHER

AMENDMENT BILL.
The report of amendments on this bill were brought
up and agreed to.

PIMLICO IMPROVEMENT BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
TAXING•OFFICER COMMON LAW BUSINESS
(IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
Their lordsh;ps adjourned at a quarter past 9 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.}
The SPEAKER t oNo
Ek
Itvh
AcihEartha tE4Ros'.c lock.
Mr. DANIEL O'CONNELL and Mr. CORNELIUS O'BRIEN
took the oaths and their seats, the one for Tralee and
the other for the county of Clare.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Lords' amendments to the following bills were
considered and agreed to :
Bideford Extension Railway, Great Southern and
Western Railway (Ireland), Great Western Railway
(Henley), Llanidloes and Newton Railway, Manchester,
Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railway (Barnsley), Moore's
(Brown's Trustees) Estate, Waveney Valley Railway,
and Whitechapel Improvement Bill.
The following bills were read a third time and
passed :

Castlemaine Estuary Reclamation, Poulnassherry In-
closure, South Wales Railway (Deviation), and -War-
rington and Altrincham Junction Railway (Warrington,
&c.)

The following bill was considered, and ordered to be
read a third time :

_ ... _ .
Dean Foust, Monmouth, Usk, and Pontypool Rail-
way.
The following bills were read a second time, and
ordered to be committed :
Clitheroe School Estate, Earl of Egremont's Estate,

and Sunderland Town Moor and Freemen's Orphan
Asylum.

_
PETITIONS.
Sir J. WALMSLEY presented a petition from a
Baptist congregation against the Government Educa-
tion Bill.
Sir R. H. INGLIS presented a petition from the
Trustees and Governors of St. Bartholomew's Hospital
against the Charitable Trusts Bill.
Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY presented a petition
to the same effect.
Mr. V. SMITH presented a petition from the Nor-
thampton Savings Bank, suggesting alterations in the
Savings Banks Bill.
WOODS AND FORESTS.

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wished to ask the Secretary
to the Treasury when the Commissioners of the Trea-
sury will place on the table of the house copies of the
annual accounts to the 30th day of November, 1852, of
the Commissioners of Woods and Forests and of Works
and Public Buildings, according to the provisions of the
act 14th and 15th Victoria, c. 42, s. 39, which direct
that such accounts, duly audited, should be presented
on or before the 31st day of March, 1853 ?
Mr. WILSON said what the hon. baronet stated was
quite true, but by some accident the accounts were not
presented to the Audit-office until late in March, but
they were in an advanced state of preparation, and they
would be laid on the table before the end of the session.

PIT ACCIDENT.
Mr. HUTCHINS drew the attention of the house to
the circumstances connected with the recent accident in
Butterworth's coal-mine, Oldham, which was attributable
to defective ventilation, and inasmuch as a similar acci-
dent from the same cause occurred two or three years
ago, he wished to know whether the Government was
prepared to send a commissioner to inquire into the
matter.
Mr. FITZROY said the proceedings of the coroner's
inquest were only received at the Home-office this morn-
ing, but no doubt his noble friend at the head of the
Home Department would take all the steps which the
case might require.
THE CAMP AT CHOBHAM.
Sir J. V. SHELLEY drewattention to the dreadful
state of the Camp at Chobham, and read an extract from
the Morning Post to show the pass to which matters had
come through the rain. He wished to know whether,
under such circumstances, it was not the duty of the
military authorities to remove the troops from this
swamp?
Lord J. RUSSELL said he could give no other
answer than that he believed the subject would receive
every attention at the bands of the Commander-in-Chief
and the Secretary-at-War.
CHATHAM DOCKYARD.

In reply to a question,
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the statement which
had appeared in a morning print relative to the appoint-
ment of a Pipe Inspector to Chatham Dockyard was
substantially correct, but political considerations were
not allowed to influence the decision which had been
come to.