The Sun.
London, England, 1865-03-04 00:00:00

these ladies leave them absolutely at the mercy of those who
have the control of these establishments, that they never

visit them, that they are: so dead to the natural affections
which are implanted in our hearts, and to the obligation of
those duties which are imposed upon us as members of

society, as not at any time to inquire into the condition of
their relatives who have taken the veil, and that they would
not be the first to seek for the investigation of any such

disgraceful proceedings as are now complained of ? (Hear.)
The real fact is that the evil—for as a Protestant I cannot

deny that it is an evil—arises not from physical, material
restraint, but from that moral restraint, from that obliga-
tion which is felt to bind the consciences of those ladies,

and even though they may have taken the veil at
an early period of life, and may afterwards repent of their
vows, prevents them from leaving these establishments.
These feelings are very much those which were expressed in
touching terms by the lady at Staplehurst to whom the
hon. gentleman referred, and who said she had taken the
veil with an earnest desire to devote herself to the service of

God, adding that all her relatives were Catholics, and that
she knew nothing of life, and asking where she should go if
she left the asylum of the convent. (Hear, hear.) Does the

hon. gentleman believe that any action of Parliament can
reach motives of that kind—motives which, however much

we may regret their existence, must still be respected ? I
do regret that any young person should take vows which
are to last for the whole of her life. (Hear.) At the same
time I am bound to say that there are many of these esta-
blishments in which the persons who enter devote them-
selves to a life, not of asceticism, but of active virtue and
benevolence, employing their whole time in the education
of the young, the reform of criminals, or other works in
which Protestants may well desire to imitate them. (Hear.)
This committee is asked for, not to inquire into the exist-
ence of convents, not into their increase, because the hon.
gentleman has given us exact statistics upon that head, and
I believe that an accurate list of all such establishments is
to be found in the Catholic Directory—(hear, hear}—but into
their character. Do you mean that it is to enter the con-
vents, examine into their regulations, and ascertain what
practices prevail in those institutions ? Is the committee to
travel about the country, or is it to call before it the in-
mates and superintendents of convents ? And if you adopt
the latter course, do you think that you will find any one
who will appeal to this committee to deliver her from the
bondage in which the hon. gentleman seems to think that
all these ladies are kept? The only thing that you can do
to effect the object which the hon. member seems to have
in view is absolutely to prohibit the existence of any con-
ventual establishments in this country. (Hear, hear.) And
I believe this is what the hon. gentleman desires to do. Now
I ask, would that be either just or desirable? With regard
tc convents of men, they are so far prohibited by the act 10,
Geo. IV., that it is provided that persons in this country
who had taken vows of this nature were bound to register
themselves within six months after the passing of the act,
and persons coming to this country and who had taken the
vows were bound to register themselves within six months
after they came here. With regard to the future establish-
ments of such convents, they were declared to be absolutely
illegal. There is, then, an absolute prohibition existing
with respect to the future establishment of convents in
which religious vows are taken by men. But the hon.
gentleman says, in spite of all this, they have increased, and
are increasing. Well, then, if that be so, is there any en-
couragement to us to go on imposing restrictions and pro-
hibitions which it is impossible to enforce? (Hear, hear.)
If the hon. gentleman is aware of the fact that in violation
of the law persons have been admitted or are being admitted
members of communities bound by religious vows or oaths,
let him lay the evidence upon which he founds that belief
before the Attorney-General, and then the Attorney-General
will decide whether that evidence is sufficient or not. But
the hon. gentleman, perhaps, will say that the object of his
motion is to attain that end. (Hear, hear.) Then, I say,
Sir, that is an object which a committee of the House of
Commons will never assist him in accomplishing. (Hear,
hear.) He asks the house to appoint a committee for the
purpose of obtaining evidence upon which to found a prose-
cution against the persons who give it, evidence which the
persons summoned before the committee are compelled to
give. (Hear, hear.) Now, I ask, would the house ever do
that ? (Hear, hear.) My hon. friend the member for Ox-
ford (Mr. Neate) alluded to France, and said there is a class
of convents there subject to visitation. But, then, they are
under the sanction of the State. We have made an excep-
tion with regard to convents in which women live who are
bound by religious vows. We do not pass any law with re-
spect to them ; but, then. we do not recognise and sanction
them ;we do not profess to regulate them. (Hear,-hear.)
Will the hon. gentleman the member for North Warwick-
shire, and the hon. member for Peterborough agree to take
them under the sanction of the State ? (Hear, hear.) If so,
you can then make regulations which you cannot make now,
and which it would be most inexpedient to make if you
refuse to recognise them. (Hear, hear.) The effect of the
prohibition of female convents would not be to diminish
by one the number of the inmates of those establish
ments, but it might be to drive them abroad, where they
would be further than ever from their relatives and
friends. (Hear, hear.) For all these reasons I think it
would be extremely inexpedient to enter upon this inquiry
unless the house is thoroughly satisfied of the existence in
those establishments of physical coercion and restraint,
which the law is at present unable to reach. I believe that
no proof has been afforded either of the existence of such
cases or of the inadequacy of the law, and, retaining that
opinion, I shall vote against the motion of the hon. gentle-
man. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. SCULLY, who was received with loud cries of "Di-
vide," said he was sure the house would give him a hearing
as it always did to any one who was personally concerned in
the question before it. (Oh !) He had never listened to
any debate in that house with so much pain. (Oh !) The
observations of the hon. member for North Warwickshire
had been most insulting to him and to every Catholic mem-
ber. (A laugh.) He would not characterise the speech of
the hon. member for Peterborough, for he was sure that
hon. gentleman did not know what he was saying.
(Laughter.) But his friend the hon.member. for Oxford (Mr.
Neate), whom he would not have suspected of such ideas,
had said that ho would support the motion on the grounds
that he, as a Protestant, felt it necessary to interpose in
behalf of the friends of Roman Catholic members who, out
of reverence for the heads of their Church,would not inter-
fere for the protection of their own relatives. He (Mr.
Scully) would have the greatest contempt for himself if
any such feeling for priest or bishop, or even for his Holi-
ness himself, should prevent him from affording every pro-
tection in his power, not only to his own relatives, but to
any other persons. He was in the habit of going to convents,
he had sisters in them, and was it to be supposed that he
felt no interest in their happiness ? Let. hon. gentlemen
only change places, and imagine themselves some 30 Protes-
tants in a Catholic Parliament of some 600 members, and
ask themselves what would bo their feelings under similar
imputations. A sister of his was superioress of one of those
convents, and he would bring the hon. member for North
Warwickshire there if he wished. (Laughter.) He would
bring him to any convent he pleased—there would be no
difficulty in getting in. Any gentleman might do so who
sent in his card ; in fact, there were no private female esta-
blishments of any kind into which it was so easy to get ad-
mission. He had great experience of convents, and no
complaint of restriction or restraint had ever reached him.
There were only 31 Catholic members from Ireland in that
House, and onefroni. England, the noble lord the member
for Arundel, and they were of course in the minority. The
motion might be carried before the election, but what good
would it do ? If it were an electioneering motion, what a
miserable course to take upon such a question ; and then it
was confined to Great Britain. (No, no.) Yes ; the terms
were "to inquire into the'existence, character, and increase
of the monastic and conventual establishments in Great
Britain." (Hear, hear.) But Irishmen in England and out
of it would deeply resent such a motion. It was the Catho-
lics who would be aggrieved if such absurd stories as had
got into the head of the hon. member for Warwickshire
were true, and it was a personal imputation on them of the
most abominable kind. Did any one suppose that he would
weigh his seat in the balance against the persecution in a
convent of any relative of his ? The question was not what
had happened in former times or other countries. (Hear,
hear.) Did any one suppose that any lady now was im-
mured in a convent against her will? If so, would it not
be known ? Then there was the trumpery case of Mrs.
MTermott. The whole facts were in the hands of the hon.
member for Peterborough, for it was he that drew up the
affidavits, and he might easily see that it was a trumpery
case if he only know how to draw the right conclusion.
(Laughter.)
The house then divided, when the numbers were—
For Mr. Newdegate's amendment, 79
Against it 106
•••
••• •••
Majority
••• ••• —27
The amendment was therefore negatived.
ORDNANCE SURVEY.
In answer to Sir W. JOLLIFFE,
The Marquis of HARTINGTON said the report on the
Ordnance Survey in the southern counties of England
would be in the hands of members next week, and would
furnish detailed information as to the progress of the sur-
vey and the publication of the Ordnance maps. The latter
could not be published until the survey was made, but the
two operations would go on simultaneously.
The house then went into committee prof.
The Court of Chancery (Ireland) No. 1 Bill was read a

secoad time.
The Industrial Exhibitions Bill passed through com-
mittee. _

W..."
BRITISH KAFFRARIA.
On the order for recommitting the British Kaffraria Bill,
Mr. A. MILLS wished to know whether, in the event of
another Kaffir war breaking out,
the Imperial Government
would have a right to call upon the Cape colony to pro-
tect the territory proposed to be annexed to it by the bill
without the consent of the Cape Legislature.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE said that it being impossible to
maintain the territory as a Crown colony, owing to its
limited resources, without coming to Parliament for assist-
ance, the only alternative was to annex it, by the consent
of Parliament, to the Cape, of which it naturally formed a
portion ; and ho did not deny that it was an exercise of
Imperial authority on the part of this house. The bill
would in fact do more than carry out the views respecting
our colonies of which tile hon. member was the exponent.
Mr. MARSH approved of the bill as a fair and econo-
mical measure.

Mr. ADDERLEY, having read all the papers relating to