The Sun.
London, England, 1853-05-12 00:00:00

THE LATE

DMIRALTY.

EXAMINATION OF MR. DISRAELI.
The Committee to inquire into Dockyard Appointments
and Promotions met at 11 o'clock yesterday morning.
Mr. Disraeli, M.P., was the first witness called.
Lord Seymour (the chairman) informed Mr. Disraeli that
the committee had been informed by Sir Baldwin Walker
that, in a particular conversation, Mr. Stafford had used
these words :—" It is of no use to blink the question. I
am so pressed by Lord Derby and the Chancellor of the
Exchequer that I cannot help myself." He (the chairman)
vial ed to ask blr. Disraeli whether he did express to Mr.
Ste fiord any opinion regarding the management of pro-
motions in the dockyards ?
Mr. Disraeli—l never had any conversation with Mr.
Stafford, or any person who held office under the late Ad-
ministration, as to such matters.
Lord Seymour—ls the committee to understand that
you did not give any opinion as to the patronage of the
dockyards ?
Mr. Disraeli—Mr. Stafford never consulted me upon any
such subject, nor did any one holding office under the late
Administration. It was a subject not falling under my
department, and he did not speak to me on the subject.
The Chairman referred to the evidence of the Duke of
Northumberland, who stated that Mr. Stafford complained
that, being responsible for all the patronage, he had not its
distribution, and was, consequently, without the means of
doing his duty, and said unless he was invested with that
power he could not retain his office. Do you (addressing
Mr. Disraeli) remember Mr. Stafford making any com-
plaint to you, as a member of the Government, under these
circumstances?
Mr. Disraeli—lf the committee wish it, I will state what
took place within my own knowledge of the facts and
parties, which Rill lead to the real cause of misunder-
standing. I did not come prepared to give such evidence,
bnt if the committee desire it I will state the facts. When
the late Government was formed, the Duke of Northum-
berland, from a high sense of public duty and a great love
for the profession of which he was a member, was most
anxious that a Board of Admiralty should be formed as
free as possible from what are usually called political in-
fluences, and the board was formed, according to the
wishes of his grace, of distinguished naval officers, whose
sole object was the best administration of that great branch
of the public service. But the consequence, I have no
hesitation in saying, was that there existed a want of that
understanding between the board and the House of Com-
mons which had hitherto prevailed, and which prevails at
present. The present Board of Admiralty is represented
in Parliament not merely by the Secretary, but by the
First Lord, and by a naval lord, so that the present board
has opportunities of effecting a perfect understanding
with the House of Commons. But when the board was
formed under Lord Derby's Administration there was
only one member of it who was a member of the
House of Commons, and that member, although a highly
distinguished naval officer, upon taking his seat at
the board, found himself in the presence of his su-
periors in professional rank, and of course was greatly in-
fluenced by them. Upon Mr. Stafford, therefore, devolved
the expression of the feelings of the Rouse of Commons, as
he was the only civilian connected with the board, and upon
that duty he entered not only without experience, but,
under great difficulties. I may perhaps add that the con-
sequence of this was, that from the first there was not that
sympathy between the board and the House of Commons
which is so necessary in our Parliamentary government. I
have no hesitation, from my position as leader of the House
of Commons at the time, in giving this as my opinion.
Mr. Stafford was placed in a difficulty by having mainly
to consider the House of Commons, without having any
one to support him at the Board of Admiralty, the mem-
bers of which looked to what it considered the good of the
service, not only in matters of patronage, but in other
questions; and I felt it my duty to support the Secretary
of the Admiralty, as the present leader of the House of
Commons would do in questions of public expenditure,
which the secretary, acting upon the views of the House
of Commons, would feel it his duty to bring under the
notice of the Board of Admiralty ; but that board, consti-
tuted as I have said, listened to those views with some de-
gree of jealousy. In fact there was not that harmony
which should exist between the House of Commons and
every branch of the service, and which can only exist when
a considerable number of the members of that branch are
members of the House of Commons. I mean to say that
the Board of Admiralty only looked to the benefit of the
service, and only considered the efficiency of the service.
They did not understand the spirit of our Parliamentary
government—that in conducting their affairs they must
consider the temper of the House of Commons, which, in
the present board, is represented by several members.
Take, for instance, the Secretary of the Admiralty repre-
senting to me, as his duty was, that the expenditure was
exceeding the estimates, it was my duty, as the guardian
of the public purse, to attend to that representation, and
I ordered a weekly account to be sent to the Treasury.
These things happened early in our Administration, and
this order was looked upon by the board as rather an un-
warrantable interference with the functions of the Ad-
miralty.
The Chairman—You, as Chancellor of the Exchequer,
and responsible for the public expenditure, were naturally
anxious to keep a control over the expenditure of the Ad-
miralty; that I can understand.
Mr. Disraeli—l do not lay much stress upon that in-
stance, save as an illustration. Such a direction, under
ordinary circumstances, would not be received with any
jealousy by the members of the board, if they were also
members of the House of Commons. Mr. Stafford was
placed in circumstances of great difficulty, and he com-
municated them to me. I advised him to conciliate as
much as possible, but to do his duty, and not to bring for-
ward any proposition which the board was not prepared to
support.
Sir H. Davie—Did Mr. Stafford state that his difficul-
ties arose from professional matters only, or from pressure
put upon him in the disposal of patronage?
Mr. Disraeli—He would not speak to me upon such
small matters, but generally upon the extreme difficulty he
found in carrying on his office, and he naturally came to
me for counsel and support. Our conversation took place
in the House of Commons, behind the Speaker's chair,
after questions had been answered, and not at formal in-
terviews. My advice to him was to conciliate as much as
possible, and I painted out the novelty of the position of
several of these gentlemen ; and I must say I always found
Mr. Stafford extremely desirous of acting upon the general
advice I gave.
Sir H. Davie again invited the attention of Mr. Disraeli
to the expressions imputed by Sir B. Walker to Mr. Staf-
ford.
The Right Hon. Gentleman replied—l thought I had an-
swered that question. I never pressed Mr. Stafford nor
any member of the late Administration on the subject of
patronage, or to induce its exercise with a view to the
coming elections. Such a matter would not occur to me
nor any one in my position. Mr. Stafford expressed to
me from the first the great difficulties he had to contend
against, arising from this spirit of jealousy and suspicion,
created as I have before stated.
The Chairman—Did Mr. Stafford express to you that
his difficulties were increased by the fact of the preceding
Government having filled up all the appointments, and
given all promotions to their own friends ?
Mr. Disraeli—No. He never went into details of this
kind ; but I think it right to state that he did mention to
me that he was placed in a difficulty with regard to the
Surveyor-General, and I remember I gave him my ad-
vice. I may say, did not go into details. I looked upon
the Surveyor-General as a permanent civil servant of the
Crown, and my advice was to treat these permanent civil
servants of the Crown not only in a conciliatory manner,
but so as to invite cordiality and confidence ; and upon
that point I spoke from my own experience. When I
went to the Treasury the principal civil servants of the
Crown there were men of, I may say, extreme liberal opin-
ions, having been appointed by the preceding Government.
I treated them with implicit confidence, and they served
me with zeal and fidelity, and even devotion, and so I
recommended Mr. Stafford to treat the Surveyor-General.
I did not go into the causes of the misunderstanding with
that officer, but Mr. Stafford told me he would act upon
my advice, and I think he did so act. That was the only
personal instance brought before me; but some time after,
Mr. Stafford spoke to me in the House of Commons about
the letter of Sir B. Walker to the Duke of Northumber-
land. Ido not know whether the letter he showed me
was the original letter or a copy to prove to me that he
had not succeeded in establishing that good understanding
which I had recommended. When I read that letter I was
very much annoyed, and made this observation, "If this
is the mode in which your overtures are to be met, I think
he had better resign." Mr. Stafford replied, "That is
quite out of the question, for the Duke of Northumber-
land considers this as a strictly confidential communica-
tion, and I will do what I can to make things ple2.,sant."
I said—" If this is the case, and Sir B. Walker com-
plains of your interference, you had better see him,
and have some conversation with him, and make
him understand your wish to go on cordially with him.
To this Mr. Stafford agreed, and from that time, in March,
I never heard of the matter again until late in the autumn,
when Mr. Stafford called upon me in Downing-street to go
through the naval estimates. I then asked him how things
were going on in his office, and he said nothing could be
better—that he had a perfect understanding with Sir B.
Walker, and that it was impossible for anybody to work
better together.
The Chairman asked Mr. Disraeli if he was to under-
stand that from his official experience ho had found that
the heads of departments, although principally appointed
by preceding Governments of different views, had acted
fairly towards him?
Mr. Disraeli—l can only speak from my own knowledge
of the Treasury ; but I can say that the permanent civil
officers there do their duty cordially and completely, and
would do so if a change of Government were to take place
to-morrow. That is my decided opinion of that depart-
ment • but, of course, I cannot speak of my own knowledge
of other offices.
In answer to the Chairman—As far as my personal ex-
perience extends, I can say that I believe the administra-
tion of affairs was carried on in perfect cordiality and good
faith by every office which came under my notice, with
the exception of the Admiralty, and that exception did
not arise from the absence of good faith in individuals,
but, as I have before stated, from the want of a perfect
understanding between the Parliamenta7 administration
of the Admiralty and the general administration. Every
other branch of the public service was snffieientlyrepre-
sented in the House of Commons except, the Admiralty,
which consequently regarded all questionings and inter-
ference of the house with jealousy.
The Chairman—Was there any other• ground of dis-
satisfaction, except upon the question of expenditure ?
Mr. Disraeli.—There was no other Cause of misunder-
standing between the Admiralty, and 'the parliament, but
I can understand that various members or Parliament,
looking to the particular patronage which has been alluded
to, may have pressed, and did press, upon Mr. Stafford for
its disposal ; and if he found himself unable to comply
with their wishes, that might possibly be a
theeunderstanding, as the persons who support ,
atGovern-
ment naturally look to a fair distribution of its pronao9.
That may have led to a misunderstanding., I only wish it
to be understood that, so far as I am concerned, it was not
brought under my cognisance.
The Chairman—We have heard from the Duke of Nor-
thumberland that he gave up all his patronage to Mr. Staf-
ford, thus leaving to the Secretaryall the patronage
usually enjoyed by the First Lord. Would not that rather
assist the Secretary in dealing with the House of Corn-
mom ?
Mr. Disraeli—Probably it might ; but this was a matterd
e cons' ere
never brought under my notice. I hav
the question of promotions in the navy or dockyards at all.
The right hon. gentleman then retired. Captain Duncombe, one of the members of
the late
Board of Admiralty, applied to the committee that a cer-
tain portion of the evidence of Captain Dundas, given on
Tuesday, relating to a complaint from the board respecting
a cask of raisins, should either be struck out, or the sub-
ject be gone into fully, as it did not in any way relate to
the late. Secretary of the Admiralty.
The committee decided upon striking ont the portion of
the evidence alluded to by Captain Duncombe.
Mr. Stafford was then recalled—He said his first diffi-
cultiets arose from being the only civilian at the board,