The Sun.
London, England, 1862-02-15 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

The house went into committee of supply pro forma;
and the chairman immediately reported progress, and the
house resumed.

HIGHWAYS BILL.

Sir G. GREY moved the second reading of this bill.

Mr. BARROW said he rose with some reluctance to move
that the bill be read a second time that day six months.
He looked upon the measure as a confiscation of the rights
of property lying beyond the limits of boroughs. Property
undoubtedly had its rights as well as its duties, and ho
thought it very unwise to take the management of high-
ways out of the hands of the councils, which had so long
managed them. He considered the bill uncalled for, and
unnecessary. It was remarkable that during the many
years these bills had been before the house, scarcely a
single petition was presented in favour of the bill ; and no
public meeting had ever been held. On tho other hand,
there had been numbers of protests against it. He under-
stood that the principle of the bill was to establish a
system of concentration and centralisation of parishes, and
to submit them to a central board. He confessed he
looked upon this extension of centralisation and bureau-
cracy with the greatest apprehension. The house was
not fairly called upon to vote for this bill, because it
was not supported by the people of this country. In
a period of some 30 years, since the 4 and a Will. IV.,
parishes had been enabled to accumulate themselves toge-
ther, and it was in their power to pay a district officer,
This power had been exerted in very few instances. He
himself knew of no single one; and he could not believe
that his oountrymen were such fools as not to avail them-
selves of it if they found it beneficial. He asked them if any
necessity existed for this measure, and if so what ? It was a
curious argument to use in favour of this bill, to say that
the existing law was not put in force. If the magistrates
had been unwearied in attempting to administer the law,
and failure had taken place, in such a case it might be rea-
sonable to find fault with the state of things. According to
the present law the parishes elected their own officers, to
whom they deputed the duty of repairing the highways.
They appointed their own surveyor for their own parish, to

superintend their own expenditure; and if the surveyor
neglected his duty he might bo3 summoned before the magis-
trates and fined. By the present law, in the case of any
question with regard to the accounts, ready access was
given to petty sessions, and if there was any question of
error on the part of the petty sessions justices it might be
carried to the quarter sessions. It seemed strange that any
alteration was required in such a law as that, but if any
change wes required, that now proposed was neither right
nor justifiable. This bill transferred to the board elected by
the districts to be formed theliberties, duties, and responsi-
bilities of the surveyor of the parish; and if there was any
difficulty in getting the road repaired under the present sys-
tem, he wanted to know by what means the board could com-
pel the performance of the duty. The present bill repealed
the power of punishing the surveyor for neglect of duty,
and another clause declared that no member of the board
should he responsible in any shape or way. (Hear, hear.)
Under the existing law the Recounts of the surveyor must
be subject to an examination by the vestry, and if any com-
plaint were made, the justices in petty sessions would dis-
pose of the matter without expense, immediately and upon
the spot. Surely the board should be called upon on some
public occasion and under some responsibility to produce
their accounts. The new bill proposed that the board should
examine its own accounts, and that they should be subject
to no other check except that they were required to publish
the accounts in a newspaper and to send a copy to the Se-
cretary of State, who had to lay an abstract of them before
Parliament. He hoped that he had said enough to induce
the house to reject such a bill as this, and concluded by
moving that it be read a second time that day six months,
Mr. BASS supported the bill. He found that the high-
ways were generally in a bad state wherever he went, and
he never met with a surveyor of highways who knew any
more about making roads than about making a way to the
moon. He contended that if properly qualified men were
employed money would be saved to the ratepayers, and the
roads would be in a far better condition than they were at
present.

Colonel BARTTELOT said that he thought, with some
alterations and amendments in committee, the present bill
might be so framed as to meet the requirements of the case.
He helieved that about one-third of the roads in England
were in a good condition, one-third moderate, and one-third
decidedly bad.
Mr. DODSON thought that the bill would not in any
way interfere with the principle of local self government.
It only extended the area to the unions. The larger area
could let out the work with more advantage to contractors,
and could afford to employ good surveyors, who were not to
be found in every parish. Ile therefore gave the second
reading of the measure his cordial support. With regard to
the matters referred to by the hon. member for Notts (Mr.
Barrow), he considered they could be satisfactorily dealt
with in committee. For his own part he thought the best
course would be to agree to the second reading, and with
the consent of the right hon. baronet (Sir G. Grey) to have
the bill referred to a select committee.

Colonel W. PATTEN was of opinion that the compul-
sory government by boards formed a very grave objection
to the present bill.
Mr. H. BRUCE said the roads of South Wales had been
mentioned somewhat disparagingly; but he thought rather
unfairly. He recollected when those roads were in a bad
state, and when they deserved the name, but now they were
very different. Everybody knew that when a road was once
put into a good state of repair it did not cost a large sum to
keep it in good condition. 0-1 ear, hear.)

Mr. DEEDES, said having for many years taken a deep
interest in a measure of thiskhljethe was desirous of stating
that something should be done to remedy the defects in the
present administration of the highway lows, and therefore
he could not help saying that he should vote for the second
reading of the bill. Bat he wished to observe that he could
not agree to all the provisions of the measure before the
house. In the first place, he thought it was unnecessarily
complicated. He could not see upon what principle the
Secretary of State for the Home Department should have
to exercise an active part in carrying into effect some of
the provisions of the bill, for he thought that duty would
be better done if left to the magistrates of counties, who
would be far more able to divide the counties into districts
than the Secretary of State. From his experience, he could
state that a vast amount of money was thrown away in
various parts of the kingdom in the repair and management
of roads, and he was firmly convinced that if way-wardens
were appointed and did their duty, the expenses now
lavished in the maintenance of highways would be con-
siderably reduced.
Mr.WALTER thought there was great necessity for some
such measure as the one before the house. At present, if
highways were out of repair it was hardly possible to en-
force the legal remedies against the surveyors, who were
generally very incompetent persons for the office. He
would give his cordial support to the second reading.
Mr. HENLEY said that highway bills had been so often
before the house, that it would be a curious thing to have a
compilation or a variorum edition of them in order that they
might see how strangely they differed from each other. His
opinion of the merits of the bill would depend on the answer
which he received from the right hon. gentleman the
Home Secretary to a question he wished to ask as to the
true construction of the fifth clause. The bill constituted
a board of waywardens, who were to be elected, but the
right hon. gentleman was evidently afraid they would not
meet, because he imposed a penalty of from £1 to £5 for
their non-attendance. Those gentlemen themselves were,
however, left to enforce those penalties which he called a
very pleasant arrangement. They were actually to fine
themselves for non-attendance. That required a degree of
virtue which it was possible a board might not always
possess. Hear.) They had often heard of church-
warden's dinners, but here was some nice machinery
set up for precisely the same purpose. The board might raise
a tax up to 2s. 6d. in the pound, and borrow money to any
extent. With all this money in their hands they were to
audit their own accounts. This was in effect the same as
providing that there should be no check upon the board;
and no doubt turtle feasts would be put in as materials for
the roads. (Laughter.) As long as the board spent other
people's money it was very desirable that there should be
an independent audit. He confessed as he read the fifth
clause it had relieved him of much of the difficulty he had
felt with regard to other bills submitted to the house, but
he should be glad to learn from his right hon. friend
whether the quarter sessions would have the power to make
one district in the county out of several parishes, and from
time to time allow other districts to be brought into the
system; or if it would be imperative on the quarter ses-
sions, upon the application of five magistrates, to compel
all the parishes to be brought into the district. The nature
of the information he would receive should decide his vote.
At the same time, on the principle " volenti non fit injuria,"
he felt that if the magistrates and inhabitants desired to
have the district system, their wishes should be acceded to.
If they had a good district surveyor, they would be sure to
have good roads; if a bad surveyor, bad roads. If the
right hon. gentleman gave him to understand that he
would enable the magistrates to act piecemeal according to
the wishes of the county, he would offer no objection to the
second reading.

Sir G. GREY aid not address the house in moving the
second reading of the bill, as there was nothing new in the
measure, several other bills identical in principle having
received the assent of the house. Upon the present
occasion, with the exception of the hon. gentleman
who moved the amendment, no opposition had been
offered to the principle of the bill. The measure was
one for the formation of highway boards of districts to
superintend the repair of the roads by means of a paid
district surveyor, whose business exclusively would be to
attend to the repair of the highways. The bill rested both
on authority and experience. The House of Commons had
repeatedly supported its principle. The existing law left it
optional to parishes to form these districts, but experience
showed that in very few instances was the law made opera-
tive, inasmuch as the act did not contain a compulsory
power. Where, however, the law was carried out the result
was most satisfactory ; the roads were kept in better repair,
and at a much more economical rate than previously. In
South Wales also, where the same principle as that of the
present bill was in operation, the same benefits had resulted.
It 1859 the total expense of the management of highways
in England was at the average rate of .Cll 2s. per mile,
whilst in Wales, under the provisions of the South Wales
Bill, the expenditure was only about £6 a mile. The hon.
member for Nottinghamshire had described this measure as
a confiscating one, and as a deparochialising one, but was
that a sound objection ? 1 t would not confiscate the rates of
the parish, as they would be collected within the parish, and
with the exception of the trifling expense which the man-
agement of the board would entail, those rates would be
spent on the parish. It was not a deparochialising measure,
because roads could not be considered exclusively as local
)raatters. But it was said by the hon. and gallant member
for South Lancashire that this would be a cumbrous mode
of attaining the end in view, and that the board might be
dispensed with, and that all they wanted was a district sur•
veyor. He agreed with the hon, and gallant member that
what they required was a district surveyor, but it should
be recollected that the board was a representative body, and
that in a case of taxation there must be such a body. The
bill would be open to greater objection if it dispensed
with a representative board, and merely left the appoint-
ment of the district surveyor in the hands of the magis-
trates, who, without the representative system, would have
the power of enforcing the payment of rates. He
believed that the real difficulty in passing this
bill through Parliament, though its principle was
assented to, was the apprehension of the expense which
wou'd be entailed upon the ratepayers. Now he did not
deny that, where roads were in a very bad state, there might
be an increase of expense in putting them in repair, but
when once those roads were, under the improved system,
put in good repair, they would afterwards be kept in an
efficient state of repair at much less expense than under the
old system. The appeal proposed by the bill had been ob-
jected to on the ground that it was considered cumbrous; he
could only say that if the house should be of that opinion
in committee, he would be happy to make such amend-
meats in that respect as might be agreed on. It was also '
asked why should the Home-office meddle in the account ?
The object was to procure information which they would
be in a position to lay before this house. Another objection
was that the bill gave an indefinite power of borrowing. It
was plain that there was at least this limit—that the money
was to be borrowed on the security of the rates, and the
louder would of course only lend in proportion N tho sem-

rity he obtained. It was said that the bill did not provide
for asa isfactory audit. The provision with respect to the
audit was not new, and if, in committee a further check
could be devised, either on this point or as to the borrowing
clause, it would be gladly adopted. The right hon. gentle-
man had referred particularly to the sth clause, in which he
thought there was some ambiguity. He (Sir George Grey)
could not see any ambiguity in the language of that clause.
He (Mr. Henley) wished to know whether it was imperative
on the magistrates to divide the whole county into highway
districts, or whether their action was limited to a particular
part of the county. It was not incumbent on them to divide
the whole county—they could, under the clause, divide a
portion of it only.

Mr. HENLEY—The answer of the right hon. baronet is
so far satisfactory. If the words of the clause are not clear
they can be made eo in committee.

Sir G. GREY then expressed his willingness to have the
bill referred to a select committee, on the understanding
that its principle was adopted, and that its details would be
considered without unnecessary delay.
Lord FERMOY said that the objection he entertained to
the bill was that it tended to promote the principle of cen-
tralisation. It swept away parochial control, and the result
would be the establishment of a central board in London
for the purpose of securing uniformity. His next objection
was a constitutional objection. They ought not to destroy
local self-government until it had been fairly tried and had
proved to fail. Where it had been tried it succeeded .
Where there was neglect, the neglect was traceable to the
want of vigour in the district justices.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY briefly expressed his concurrence in
the principle of the proposed bill.

Mr. NEWDEGATE considered that the machinery
contemplated by the bill would be found very cumbrous,
and that its operation would be found to increase expense
instead of promoting economy.

The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the second reading l4l
Against it
M,,jority
, FAIRS AND MARKETS IN IRELAND.
. Sir It. PEEL moved for leave to bring in a bill for the
better regulation of markets and fairs in Ireland, which ho
stated to be founded on the, report of a select committee
which sat last year.

After a short discussion, in which Averal Irish members
expressed their gratification at the' early introduction of
Irish measures, leave was given. •