The Sun.
London, England, 1865-03-17 00:00:00

ARMY ESTIMATES.

The house then went into committee of supply on the
army estimates, Mr. Dodson in the chair.

The Marquis of HARTINGTON rose and said—The
house has already so fully discussed so many of the subjects
connected with the administration of the army, that it will
not be necessary for me to trespass for so long a time upon
the attention of the committee as I should otherwise have
done. We have already had debates upon the subject of
recruiting, upon the subject of ordnance, and upon the sub-
ject of the proposed fortifications of Canada. These three
subjects are, perhaps, the most important of those to which
it will be my duty to call the attention of the committee
this evening. I will not, therefore, detain the committee by
making any preliminary observations upon these great ques-
tions, but will proceed at once to explain to the hpse the
estimates which we have laid upon the table. I will first re-
mark that some slight changes have been made in the form
of the estimates; that, in deference to the opinion of hon.
members, we have this year again reverted to the practice
of taking in the first vote the number of men. The house
will also observe that some charges have been transferred
from one vote to another. As some inconvenience may occur
to hon. members from that change, I propose to compare
the expenditure of this year with the expenditure of former
years. I may remark, however, that these charges are made
upon the principle of transferring to each vote the charge
which really belongs to it, so as to make the head of each
department responsible for his own vote to the Secretary of
State. The estimate which I have laid on the table this
year amounts to £14,348,447, showing a reduction upon
the estimate of the current year of £495,641. But when we
come to compare the estimated charge for army service this
year, as against that of last, we shall find a still greater
reduction. If we deduct from the gross estimate the re-
payments to the exchequer for extraordinary service this
year, we shall find that the real charge amounts to
£12,645,007, against a _ similar charge last year of
£13,519,648, showing that the total estimated saving this
year is £874,639. Though I will not detain the house with
any long comparison, I cannot refrain from pointing out the
reduction which we have been able to effect since the year
1861-62 the year of highest expenditure upon army service.
Although nominally the estimates in the year 1862-63
reached the highest amount, the year 1861-62 was really
the year of highest military expenditure, because in that
ya-rmearythesetiinchaartegse,saonfdthweelrne defrayed
Indian Government
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reduction
increased to £1,216,000 ; and this year the reduction of the
estimate over that of 1862-3 amounts to £1,711,903. This is
a reduction of nearly£2,ooo,ooo from the year of our highest
expenditure. That is not all I should like to mention, for
we have now:reduced our military expenditure below that
of 1859-60, the year before the Government of Europe had
been alarmed by the Italian war, and before the feeling
became prevalent throughout the country that our defences
were not in the state that they ought to be, and before the
year in which our armaments had assumed those dimensions
which had since been styled in this House "bloated arma-
ments." In 1859-60 the estimates were prepared by the
right hon. and gallant gentleman opposite (General Peel).
subtractn not i included
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the army estimates this year the charge for the militia.
The estimates in 1859-60 amounted to £12,859,297.
General PEEL—That included the militia.

The-Marquis of HARTINGTON—No, that did not in-
clude the militia. But that sum was arrived at by deducting
from the gross vote the sum of £700,000, which was the
amount expected to be received from the Indian Govern-
ment on account of services rendered to them in prior years.
The total amount therefore really estimated to be expended,
exclusive of the militia, in 1859-60 was £13,559,297, or
£26,250 more than the estimate of this year, after deducting
the amount for the militia. Nor is this all, for in the army
estimates now appeared charges for depots and other ser-
vices for the Indian Government, which in 1859-60 were
not so apparent. These charges amount this year to the
8:_nlof £648,000. Therefore, in addition to the saving
.4611i48,eh00 Ioi
have shown of £26,250, there is a real saving of
It must also be remembered that since that time
the Volunteer force has almost entirely sprung up, involv-
ing a charge this year of £354, 000. There have been several
other new charges, some of them on the recommendation
oof
4,thseooeofmormaidsediiotinonoani recruiting.
clothing, issued
iss
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facts
For
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den of the select committee,

the Government have been obliged during the last few
years to bring forward very large estimates for army pur-
poses, we have been working steadily and earnestly in the
direction of the reduction of our military expenditure. I
now come to the first vote which I shall have to move, viz.
the number of men. The total reduction of the force of
the army this year will be 4,000 men. I will explain now
what has been effected. The reduction in the artillery has
been entirely due to a change in the organisation of that
force. When the amalgamation of the Royal and Indian
artillery was effected it was thought necessary to make a
large increase in the depot brigades, for the purpose of meet-
ing the Indian reliefs. It was impossible very accurately
to calcuate what would be the requirements of the service.
It has turned out that those requirements were over-esti-
mated, and that the service can be maintained by depots
of smaller dimensions than those which were originally
formed. It has been proposed, therefore, and sanctioned
by the Commander-in-Chief, to reduce the depot brigades
to 16 batteries instead of 20, which will be divided into three
divisions instead of four. It is believed that this will be a
positive improvement to the efficiency of the artillery, be-
cause with less number of men, there would be a greater
proportion of officers. The reduction in the infantry
amounts to a little over 2,000 men. That is caused, in the
first instance, by the reduction of one of the West India
regiments. This regiment (the Bth) was raised to garrison
St. Helena, and to replace the Gold Coast Artillery. Five
regiments are under orders to be sent home from New
Zealand. There are two battalions additional also return-
ing from India. The effect of these changes will be to in-
crease the force at home as follows :—ln 1864-5 the force
of infantry at home amounted to 32,500, or, including the
India and colonial depots, 43,520 men. For the year en-
suing the force at home will be 35,700, or, including the
India and colonial depots, 45,920. This, of course, does
not include the brigade of Guards, amounting to 5,963
men. On the vote for the commissariat I have to men-
tion that this year, for the first time, the new colonial
arrangements have come into operation, by which the
whole amount of the colonial allowances are charged
against the army estimates. There is, however, a dimi-
nution in the whole sum of the commissariat, owing to
the reduction of the operations in New Zealand, which
last year caused a considerable increase in this vote. It
is proposed to bring home a considerable force from New
Zealand, and it is probable that the remaining troops will
be brought into a position nearer a seaport than hitherto,
_ _

and that the number of troops scattered over the island will
be diminished. The diminution that has been shown in the
medical staff is caused simply by the reduction of operations
in New Zealand, and the cessation of those which were last
year carried on on the West Coast of Africa. With regard
to the militia, I have only to state that the arrangement I
mentioned last year has this year been carried into execu-
tion. I now come to the subject of our manufacturing esta-
blishments, which, of course, will include the whole question
of our armament, both naval and military. I quite admit
that the difficulties surrounding the 'heavy gun question
have not been as yet overcome, and that we have not ad-
vanced towards its settlement as far as I expected during
the course of last year; but, at the.same time, I must repeat
again what has been to a certain extent contradicted, that
no other nation is in a more advanced position than we are.
The only nation which, under the actual pressure of war, is
provided with guns of a large calibre is America. The
Americans have resorted to cast-iron guns, a material
which we believe to be entirely untrustworthy for such a
purpose. The system of construction which we believe to
be the best is the coil system, as adopted by Sir W. Arm-
strong. That system has been adopted by us for the smaller
guns, and up to the 100-pounders. As far as the construc-
tion of the guns is concerned we have had no reason to
complain. Both Sir W. Armstrong and the Government
have made a series of experiments upon guns constructed
upon the coil principle, of a larger calibre than the 110-
pounders. No doubt, as will always happen when an entirely
new system is under trial, mistakes may be made. Still, we
believe that we now have a 13-inch or 20-ton gun, a 9-inch
or 12-ton, and a 6 or 7-inch gun, which are perfectly satisfac-
tory; and that, if circumstances required, we might quite
safely manufacture these guns in large quantities. How-
ever, there being so much difference of opinion amongst
men conversant with the subject, it was thought right
about two years ago to single out Mr. Whitworth and Sir
William Armstrong, and to give them an opportunity of
having their competitive systems tested before a committee.
That, no doubt, has delayed for a considerable period the
introduction of the heavy gun. The Government would
not have been justified in asking the house to vote a large
expenditure for a purpose which the year after might prove
to be futile. When the committee was appointed it was the
intention of Sir George Lewis that the manufacture of guns
of both large and small calibre should be suspended; but
the progress of the committee has been so slow that we
were unable altogether to suspend our manufacture. The
navy required a supply of 70-pounders—now styled 64's—
for on board ship. One of the subjects which were under
consideration was the system of rifling recommended by Sir
William Armstrong, as opposed to Mr. Whitworth's ; but
the navy could not wait for the report of the committee,
and we were therefore obliged to adopt that which we
knew to be a safe and serviceable gun. It was resolved to
rifle those 64-pounders upon the Armstrong principle. It
is true that we have not made, nor are we making, any guns
of a large calibre to store up in reserve ; we are only meet-
ing the possible requirements of the present year. I quite
admit that a reduction of our estimates is not likely to be
maintained to any advanced point; for as soon as this great
question is finally decided, no doubt it will be necessary
for the country to expend a large sum upon the construction
of these heavy guns, both for our army, the navy, and the
forts. Here I may state that there was considerable exag-
geration in the estimate of the hon. member for Finsbury
(Sir M. Peto) the other evening. The hon. baronet said it
would be necessary to expend upon the arming of the forts
alone a sum of £17,000,000. Upon a future occasion I shall
be able to prove that the sum at the utmost is not likely to
exceed £3,000,000. Still £3,000,000 for our forts, in addition
to the sums required for the army and the navy, is, no
doubt, a very large amount ; and I think the committee
will be of opinion that we have done right in not going be-
yond our actual requirements in the present year. I desire
here to observe that the ordnance select committee have
met with a most unjust amount of blame. They have been
blamed for everything that has been done, and for almost
everything that has not been done, in the matter of guns.
It has been stated they were responsible for the adoption of
guns, and that, being inventors themselves, other inventors
stood no chance with them. Nay, it was even hinted they
would not hesitate to steal the inventions of others. A
more unfounded charge could not be made. The Secretary
of State was alone responsible for the selection of a new
armament, but the select committee and the Commander-
in-Chief supported the Secretary of State with the practical
knowledge which it was impossible for him individually to
possess. The committee are not inventors, neither are
they allowed to introduce any invention of their own. As
to the 110-pounder, the committee had nothing to do with
it; it was introduced by the Secretary of State upon the
recommendation of Sir William Armstrong. As to the
non-introduction of an effective heavy gun, no blar_ e can
properly be laid at the door of the committee. No doubt
if it had been open to the committee to have set aside the
rights of inventors, it would have been possible for them
by this time to have come to a determination upon the sub-
ject. But in this country we can only use the inventions
of inventors with their consent ; and although the decision
in the Court of Queen's Bench the other day points in
another direction, I am sure it will never come about in
this country that we shall take possession of a man's
invention against his will, and without giving him just
and proper compensation. There is another subject
connected with armaments upon which I must say a few
words. Last year Lord De Grey appointed a committee,
not of scientific men or inventors, but of officers who had
seen service of different kinds, to consider the desirability
of arming the troops with muzzle-loaders or breech-
loading muskets. After hearing some evidence, the com-
mittee reported unanimously in favour of breech-loaders.
Well, we had 800,000 stand of arms in store, and of course
the replacement of these became a very serious matter.
The first thing to be considered was whether the Enfield
might not be temporarily converted into a breech-loader.
That would prevent the necessity of rapid action, and give
us time for consideration. Wo issued an invitation to in-
ventors to come forward, the only condition being that the
accuracy of the aim was not to be impaired, and that the
alteration was not to exceed in cost £1 per rifle. Forty
inventors answered the invitation, and out of these seven
or eight were selected. The report of the committee was
only received yesterday by Lord De Grey ; and, although
I cannot speak confidently, I hope to be able to state, when
the vote comes on, that the Enfield rifle can be converted
into a breech-loader. The committee have laid down what
they consider to be the absolute requisites of the new wea-
pon ; and we shall at once call for tenders by the manufac-
turers to produce an arm according to the pattern. Of
course, I do not pretend that the Enfield, when converted,
d es t
not
exist besti
a breech-loader
be anything like the best weapon obtainable. It has
been already proved that the Enfield large-bore is by no
means weraepb
eeoenh
abreech-loader,
h
in
b reee n.lo existence.a d Theer,
d b
an newt aerm will be
a small-bore,
ll h-boe e
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quali-
fications. I have no doubt we shall obtain such a weapon ;
ob
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home, we shall have done all that is necessary to put our-
selves in a position of safety as regards this point. In con-
elusion, I hope I may say that both as regards health and
discipline the condition of our army leaves nothing to be
desired. We have had no great military operations to test
the quality either of our officers or our men. Those which
have been conducted in New Zealand have shown that in
every kind of warfare they have improved. Almost all the
operations which have been attempted have proved suc-
cessful; and though there was one unfortunate reverse, by
which we lost a considerable number of men, that repulse
shows that the gallantry of our officers is as conspicuous
as ever, and that our men are as determined as ever to re-
trieve even disaster. (Hear, hear.)
General PEEL, noticing some observations addressed by
Mr. Bernal Osborne to his constituents at Liskeard during
the autumn, stated that the present Parliament had ex-
pended upon the naval and military services the enormous
of
votes the estimatesof
credit
for
rr
theth e
esustm. otef
presents
£fol6rot,hBeoB,O23,
iv
the e
Chine war, and the money raised by loan for the fortifi-
excl
year,us