The Sun.
London, England, 1853-07-26 00:00:00

had been settled on himself, with a reversion to his son, I the soldier, and in many respects he was infi-
and afterwards to his son's son, the noble earl would pay 1, nitely better off. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the
6001. for his life interest, his son would do the same, and ! question of punishment the Admiralty imposed the
his son's son would pay 2,0001., or 10 per cent. upon the strictest checks upon the commanding officers, and they
capitalised income. were required to give the fullest returns of all cases
Clauses 2to 8 inclusive were agreed to almost without where they had recourse to corporal punishment.
discussion. There was a wide difference between the position
On clause 9, of a commander in the army and in the navy,
The Earl of DERBY, following Earl POWIS WllO WAS
scarcely audible, wished to be informed what was the in- and that difference in their circumstances rendered it
tention of her Majesty's Government with regard to corpo- necessary that the power of inflicting punishment should
rations sole, be concentrated in one hand. This bill proceeded upon
The LORD CHANCELLOR said corporations sole were the assumption that there should be a large body of
almost all ecclesiastical, and were not strictly subjects for seamen constantly employed for a period of 10 years,
a succession tax. Instead of being paid a salary they were and that during that period the seamen should be well
paid by a real estate, which devolved upon one after paid. The experience of recent years proved that such
another. The hierarchy of the church and rectors and
a measure was the best that could be adopted for the
vicars were successors of such a nature that it was con-
interest of the service and the country, and he hoped
sidered impossible to bring them under the operation of
the bill. the committee would be unanimous in passing its details.
Clauses 9, 10, and 11 were then agreed to. Admiral WALCOTT approved of the bill generally,
After a few observations from the Earl of CLANCARTY, but he would suggest that the period of service should
clauses 12 to 21 inclusive were also agreed to. be extended from 10 to 20 years, and that there should
On clause 22, which related to outgoings, be an entry of 1,000 boys made every year in the navy.
The Earl of MALMESBURY wished to know what was Sir J. GRAHAM did not think it would be advi-
iutended by the term " necessary outgoings." sable to accede to the proposal of the hon. and gallant
The Duke of ARGYLL said it was impossible to specify admiral.
in au act of Parliament the necessary outgoings on an es- In answer to Sir DE LACY EVANS,
tate. It had been thought best, on the whole, to leave
Sir J. GRAHAM said the Crown had power to offer
such matters in the ordinary course. No doubt the usual
bounties in order to raise men on an emergency.
deductions would be allowed under the bill.
After a short conversation the clause was agreed to. In answer to Sir J. WALMSLEY,
Clauses up to 26 were agreed to.
was not prepared to commend •
On clause 26, which relates to the duty on the value of carSeifrulj.cGonßsiliatAiloln,,after giving the subject his most
mines, the institution of courts martial for the trialoft
to thehemen,
The Earl of DERBY said the clause was an impossible as was the case in the army. It was essential
one, because it was simply out of any man's power to ascer- maintenance o f discipline that all the power on board
tarn the value of a mine. ship should be placed in the hands of one man.
Earl GRANVILLE observed that the value of the mine Clause 1 was then agreed to.
was to bo ascertained according to the ordinary mode of de
em clause 2, in answer to Sir T. D. ACLAND,
letting.
Sir After a few words from Lord TRURO and the Earl of
j GRAIIAM-said he was not aware that there
DERBY, had n et. been any diminution in the number of African
The clause was agreed to,C
as were clauses up to 34.
On clause 34, which imposes the duty on the successor boys
Clause
aus
et he 2 s
waslavaegtrreaedde
to and squadron.
were also the remaining
to the full amount of the property, although a part of it clauses of the bill, and the house resumed.
might have been previously eaten up by encumbrances, Mr. WILLIAMS took the oaths and his seat for
The Earl of DERBY said he was not going to move an West Cornwall.
amendment on this clause, which would not be receivedby The house then adjourned until six o'clock.
their lordships, but he could not allow it to pass without The house resumed at six o'clock.
pointing out its manifest injustice. If a man succeeded to
an estate of 20,0001. a year, of which all but 5,0001. had PETERBOROUGH ELECTION.
been anticipated and eaten up by the encumbrances of the Mr. BRIGHT moved that in the matter of the Peter-
predecessor, he was taxed not on the 5,0001. which
he did borough Election Petitions Committee, the parties have
receive, but' on the amount which he might receive but leave_ to appear by themselves, their counsel, or agents.
did not receive. If the property had been actually parted Mr. -WORTLEY, as chairman of the committee, was
with to the same amount, instead of being mortgaged, the 4?-
quite willing that counsel should be heard, but it was ex-
tax could not be levied, and, therefore, it seemed to be the tremely desirable that the committee should be enabled to
grossest injustice to levy it when, to all intents and pur- check the proceedings of counsel, so that the sittings might
poses, it was parted with as far as the successor was con- not be so procrastinated by undue extension of examine-
cerned. tion and discussion on their part as to prevent the com-
Earl GRANVILLE said that it was impossible to legis- mittee from reporting during the present session.
late so as to meet every possible case that might arise. The SPEAKER said, that counsel, if appointed, must
But if they once admitted the principle of exemptions like be heard in the ordinary way.
this, it would be likely to lead to great evasion of the Mr. WORTLEY appealed to the hon. member for Man-
duty. For instance, a man with an estate of the capital chester to leave the matter in the hands of the committee,
value of 120,0001. might make a colourable mortgage of who would be quite ready to call in counsel if the necessity
100,0001., so that the duty would be paid only on 20,000/. arose.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said that a man may raise Mr. BRIGHT objected that the committee had not been
money on the reversion even for legitimate purposes, in- appointed according to what he understood to have been
vesting it in trade, for instance, and under such circura- the feeling of the house, pursuant to which, and upon the
stances, was he to be exempt although he might be getting Stamford precedent, he himself ought to have been ap-
-10 or 15 per cent. on the money so invested? pointed a member.
The Earl of DERBY said that in that case the duty BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
would be paid both on the money invested on the trade,
and on the property on which it was borrowed. Lord J. RUSSELL moved that, after Monday, the Ist
After a few words from Lord Truro, the Earl of Har- of August, orders of the day have precedence of notices of
rowby, Earl Granville, and the Earl of Malmesbury, motions upon Tuesdays.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said there was a body called Mr. DISRAELI did not wish to offer any opposition to
the Reversionary Fund Society, whose business it was to the motion, because he thought it desirable to facilitate
purchase up reversions ;and it was singular, if this clause the progress of public business. But the house ought to
involved so much injustice, that not a single word of tom- part with the privilege of bringing forward motions with
plaint had been heard from that body. (Hear.) duo caution ' • and he hoped that in assenting to the motion
The 'clause was then agreed to, as were the following there would be a clear understanding that if in the present
clauses up to clause 48. state of public affairs any great question of urgency should
On clause 49, arise on which independent members should wish to take
The LORD CHANCELLOR stated, in answer to Lord the opinion of the house, the noble lord would take care
Hardwicko, that the disclosing of confidential information
t Lord J. RUSSELL
feltgrateful
opportunity.
to(Hearthe righthear.
ho) n. gen-
received under the provisions of this act, would be treated
as a misdemeanour. Allusion had been made to the case tleman for the facility which he was disposed' to afford to
t
of the Newcastle corporation losing 7,0001. alyear, by the the progress of public business, and considered that if any
production of their title deeds in a court of law • ' but the great public question should arise tho house would have a
fact was, they lost it because it never belonged to them, claim on the Government. (Hear, hear.)
After a conversation, in which the Earl of MALMESBURY, The motion was then agreed to.
Earl GRANVILLE, and other peers took part, the clause GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.
was agreed to. The house then went into committee on this bill, Mr.
On clause 54, Boverie in the chair.
The Earl of MALMESBURY wished to know why the Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said, he had given notice of
bill was to operate from the 19th of May. Was it the four clauses, two of which raised a question whether the
Chancellor of the Exchequer's birthday? (Laughter.) secret committee should not have the power of tendering
Earl GRANVILLE said a few words in reply, and the their advice and opinion, and if necessary, of recording
clause was then agreed to. that advice and opinion on all orders that may reach them
The Earl of DERBY was understood to state, in the from the President of the Board of Control. The object
confusion caused by most of the peers leaving the house, of his clauses was to impose something in the shape of a
that he should not press his amendment for restricting tho check to those wars which had produced so much mischief
operation of the act to five years. in India, He contended, moreover, that all the recent
The remaining clauses were agreed to, after a valedictory wars in India had been entered into in consequence of the
protest from the Earl of HARROWBY against the " injus- secret committee not having power to check the proceed-
tice " of the bill, which elicited a short reply from the ings of the Board of Control. He moved the insertion of
LORD CHANCELLOR and Lord TRURO. the following clause in the bill :—" That the secret com-
The house then resumed, the bill was reported, and the mittee of the Court of Directors shall consist of the chair-
third reading fixed for a subsequent day, man, deputy-chairman, and such other director as shall be
COLONIAL CHURCH REGULATION BILL, selected and nominated by the Court of Directors ; and
This bill was read a third time and passed. that the said Court of Directors shall select and nominate
MISSIONARY BISHOPS BILL. such third member on the first Wednesday in April, 1854,
and shall certify the said appointment, and in the case of
The Bishop of OXFORD moved the second reading of
vacancy all future appointments, to the Secretary of State
this bill. Its object was to authorise the placing of a
bishop at the head of the foreign missions of the Church for the Affairs of India, under the seal of the East India
e
of England. Company.
the
The
Earl Powis' Sir C. WOOD—The objection to this clause is, that it
the Earl of Malmesbury, the Bishop of Sa- (A lisbury, and the Marquis of Salisbury, having expressed is
clause law as
was nee- it stands.ally-ea .nt 1
without a division.
their opinions on the bill,
The Earl of ABERDEEN expressed a fear that the bill
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY then moved the clause of which
might lead to very serious inconveniences. At the same he had given notice, which was as follows :—" That the
time, secret " committee shall transmit to the supreme go-
time, the protection required for the bishops would be not vernrnent in India all orders of the said Secretary of State,
greater than for the missionaries.
as by the law is now required as to orders emanating from
After a few words from the Earl of MALMESBURY and the President of the Board of Commissioners of the Affairs
the Bishop of OXFORD, the bill was read a second time, of India, except that if the said secret committee shall
and ordered to be committed. think fit they may tender their advice and opinion on the
Their lordships then adjourned, at 10 minutes to 12 effect of any such order or orders, and if they deem it ex-
o'clock. pedient may enter a protest in writing as to the effect of
such order or orders, and that such protests shall be duly
recorded at the office of the said secret committee, and
also at the office of the said Secretary of State ; but
nothing in this act shall be construed in any way to inter-
fere with the power of the said Secretary of State to issue
, any order or orders that he may think fit to direct shall
transmit through the said secret committee."
Mr. HUME said, as this clause would meet the object
he had in view, he would give it his support. What he
waut,sd was to empower the Court of Directors or the
secret committee to record their dissent whenever they
happened to differ in opinion from the Board of Control.
Sir J. HOGG was sorry ho could not, consistently with
his sense of public duty, support the clause.
, Mr. DISRAELI wished to make an inquiry of the Go-
vernment with respect to the statement of the hon. bart.,
that her Majesty's Ministers were responsible for the peace
and security of India, and that the responsibility should
rest with those who exercised the power. He wanted to
know whether the power of recalling the Governor-Gene-
ral of India was to be left with the Court of Directors ?
He would not go into any question as to the propriety of
leaving that power with the directors ; but he thought'it
was one of the most important powers which could be con-
ceived; and if her Majesty's Government were to be held
responsible for the government of India, it appeared to be
quite impossible that they could fulfil that responsibility
if no change was made in the power of recalling the
Governor-General.
Sir J. HOGG had confined his observations to the secret
committee.
Sir C. WOOD said the responsibility connected with
questions of peace and war, and of negotiations with
native princes, had for the last twenty years rested
with her Majesty's Government, and he proposed to con-
tinue it there. Daring the same period the Court of Di-
rectors had exercised the power of recalling the Governor-
General, or any other public officer, and of that power he
did not propose to deprive them.
Mr. HUME said one of his objects in supporting the
clause was to enable the secret committee to communicate
their proceedings to their colleagues in the direction. At
present they were not able to do so, except with the con-
sent
of the Board of Control.
Mr. RICH should vote for the clause, because it would
give reality and substance to the remonstrances which the
secret committee could now make.
Mr. OT WAY said it was important it should be known
in India by whom public officers were recalled. At present
that could not be known, in consequence of the directors
being compelled to sign dispatches against which they had
solemnly protested. Allow them, however, to record their
dissent, and they would be relieved from a disagreeable
position.
Mr. BLACKETT observed that Mr. Tuckett, an East
India director, whose memoirs were lately published, speak-
ing in reference to the Affghan war, said that he had felt
humiliated at his name being mentioned in connection with
that war, although he had not concurred in the order of the
secret committee in which it originated. He (Mr. Blackett)
thought that responsibility should always be laid on the
proper shoulders, and he should, therefore, support the
amendment of the hon. baronet.
Mr. V. SMITH did not much admire the constitution of
body like the secret committee, and he quite understood
how humiliating it must be to be compelled to sign orders
in respect to which there was no responsibility and no
credit. On this account he should have wished that the
Court of Directors should be smaller, in order that the
secret committee might be done away with, and that the
orders might be transmitted through the whole Court. But
he thought there was much force in the objections which
had been stated by the hon. baronet the member for Honi-
ton, against registering the dissents of the members of the
committee, sad he should, therefore, not think it advisable
1 to support the amendment.
The committee then divided—
, For the amendment... 3O
Against it
Majority against —42
Mr. HUME moved the insertion of a clause extending
the qualifications of electors of the Court of Directors to all
persons having 5001. stock in the East India Company, and
having had that for 12 months, as by the present law; also,
all holders of company's paper to the value of 10,000 rupees;
also, to allow every civil and military servant who had
served the company 20 years in India, and who should
have retired from the service of the company, to vote for a
director after he should have been 12 months at home, and
ta2rai2aen9dnrathesnatftwesraashidethtshould have resigned the service, and to
enable all electors to vote by proxy.
Mr. 1,0
great eviiviahtatthhiesyfirhsatdobsleructeikonoutot
ofth the
tbperoacpotsaeldl
and the
those clauses which
could not be prohibited canvassing for directorships,
havingi been said to be that the best per-
sonsproonerous nature of the canvass, the
in
consequence
of
the to come forward as candidates
hon. gentleman nosv
ousness by extending the sed
greatly to increase its numberoner-
of the electors. Another
and conclusive objection to
tgoao mvirenn (jinn igepnot
wwe
ra st,o tah
ea
ut itm .
proposed to give a share of the
ber of persons not belonging
standing so it in the relation either of creditors or or servants. at all, but
t;t om of
parliament had already decided that the
India she ald for the present be left with the ElCto;r nme
pany ; and that being the case, he thought that they should.
not be right in taking. the government out of the hands of
the company, and giving it to some other body of men.
He therefore felt himself compelled to oppose the amend-
mead.
Mr. WISE supported the clause.
Sir C. WOOD considered that there was this fatal ob-
jection to any increase in the existing constituency in the
inas incr now proposed, that it would be totally inconsistent
wit le the decision to which the house had already come,
viz.., that the government of India should, for a time at
lea st, be vested in the East India Company ; that was, iu
tin, proprietors of East India Stock. They might take
away the government from the company if they pleased,
and cilloose whatever constituency they thought best to

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at one o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Lords' amendments to the following bills were
considered apd agreed to :—•British Electric Telegraph
Company, London and North-Western Railway (North-
ampton, &c.), London and North-Western Railway (St.
Alban's, &c.), West Harptry Road.
The following bills were read a third time and passed:
—Banbridge, Dublin, Newry, and Belfast Junction Rail-
way, Galway Improvement, Warrington and Altrinchan
Junction Railway(Warrington, &c.), the Duke of Atholl's
Estate, &c.