The Sun.
London, England, 1801-06-03 00:00:00

ZitYPT.

Afo;:jCIAM,3 said, that in-pursuanee of his, no.
lice he rose ,once more to call the artention'of .the
House to thet Affairs of Egypt." He-had been .at_
tacked and anathematized by -the EX-MinisteettpOn.
this subjel, but he thought it his duty., as a Member
of Parliament, again shortly to troable the House
respelling the consequences .that ensued from .the
rupture of the Convention of. El-Arish. The first
proposition• which he should lay doWn, and he did'
not expeft to hear it controverted, was, that Sir
SIDNEY SMITH was invested with foil Powers as
Minister to the Ottoman Porte, He should there-
fore contend that Sir St nt.tir Smint had a' right/to
conclude the Treaty of ElArish, and that we were,
bound by it.' When the French had agreed by that
Treaty to evacuate Egypt, he believed-that-every
body considered it as, a brilliant. terminatioo, on our
part, of the contest about Egypt. '[he objeet of
his present Motion was,' to ascertain who it was
that advised His MAJETY to send out Orders to
Lord Kr tall not to agree to the Treaty, in order
that Ministeri who gave that advice :rnighi.
with the censure which they deserved for such con_
duet. Another objet he had in view was, to'res-
cue the charaCtee of the Country from, the charge
of Punk Faith which this transaction had brought•
upon her. He meant not to accuse-the preserfr
nisters of any 'of the guilt of that buSiness, and he,
had no doubt but that they would concur with him
upon this occasion, and show to the. Country- tO
whom the blame of breaking that Treaty .was attri-
butable. He wished the House for a moment to con-
sider what Were. the, consequences of violating that
Treaty ; in the first place, it caused' the continuation
of the War, and therefOre placed the Country
pr sent alarming situation. Exclusive of the War
with France, Gentlemen must know that the 'Armed
,Neutrality still, subsisted, indeed he believed he
might say we were engaged in a Baltic War. It
was well known, that the Ktetc of Pauss lA' had
seized Hanover and its Treasures, and for, the dis-
position of that Monarch, wad, of the Este lowa
ALEXANDER, he begged, only to refer to the Mani:.
,estoes they had published—and' all 'these conse.:'
quences were attributable only to the violation of
the Convention of El-Arish. But thii was not the
worst—our best Troops were sent to Egypt, at the
moment when we were threatened with an•lnvasion.
fle,ides this, Portugal, perhaps at the moment he
was speaking, had submitted. to the Enemy ; whereas
the Troops we sent to Egypt, might have been sta.,
cient to defend her.—There was a report itycircula,
tion, that: three French Frigat6 had et-atered Alex-.
andria with.men and stores, but he hoped there was
no foundation for it... It had alsobeen stated, that
there was a great want of Surgeons. in our Army in
that'quartef, and he believed there was some founda-
tion for the reorr, from the number that had been
lately sent out. He wished to know whether the
Army from India had reached Suez; he feared nei-
ther the Ministers,' nor any of the East India Di-
rettors could answer that question in the -affirmative.
He then concluded with moving, " That an Humblt
Address be presented to Hts.MAt EFery,, praying
that he would he pleased to communicate to his
Faithful Commons, by whom he had been advised to
send out the Orders co Lord Kt tali, not to consent
to any' Treaty' unless. the French surrendered as
Prisoners,,of War." :The Address then went on to
state at 'length the various ill. consequences which
.ensued froM the Convention of YI-Arish.

Lord 11.4IVICES13URY said, that- the •arguments
of.the Hon. Gentleman had been so often answered,
and he had so frequently stated his reasons for dif.
Bring with the Hon. Gentleman upim,this subjed;
that he should think he took up.' the time of' the
1-loutt improp6rly, if he entered into any argument
'upon the subjed, and thereby delayed .the HOuse
from the consideration of the other important public
.bushiess which stood for this day.. For the reasons
he had formerly given, he should :,.vote agpinst the
Motion.

~
Mr. WINDHAM said, he rose to make a few
observations upon what had fallen fro,n. the Ho'n.
Gentleman ; not, that he did not concur with the
Woble Lord in thinking that the answers which had
been before , given perfeEtly decisive upon the sub-
jea. Before 'the Hon. Gentleman could succeed in
his ,Motion, there were two points which it would
be necessary for him to:maintain. In the first place,
it would be necessary for the Hon. Gentleman to
shew that the decision of Ministers 'was, at the
time it 'was made, unwise, and..improper ; . and,
supposing the decision to have been wrong,
then that the consequences were ' such as had
been ' stated. .If the Honourable
.Gentleman' failed.
in establishing the first point, then there was
.an.
end of the question, because, if it appeared that
the decision was proper under. all' the circumstances
at the time when it Was made, Ministers could,
upon no fair reasoning, be con3ittered censurable for
' the consequences, however unfortunate they might
be. With regard to the first point then, viz. whe-
ther the decision which His ,Majesty's Ministers
came to upon that point was right or "wrong, he.
' should only say a very few wards. At the time
'that decision was made he ,thought it was right,
and he noW,"after maturely considering all the cir-
cumstances, was fully of the, same opinion. Even
now he could not, with,a view of all the events'
which have happened since,. or 'considering the
events whichlinght enEuei bring himself to regret
that determination which Ministers came to '.upon
that subjett. He did not state this, because he
Wished at All events to defend the late Ministers,
for he had -much rather they had been wrong in
their judgment, provided the conequences bad been
fortunate .for 'the Country, than that they should
have been right in their opinion, and the conse-
quences unfavourable. In defending the conduit of
the late Ministers upon that occasion, he meant to
have contended, that among other adVantages de..
rived from it,
,it, had added much to the charac.:
. W
ter of. the
~COuntry, and therefore ' he as not
a little, surprized to hear the Honourable Gentle,.
man state, as one . of his objeCtiOns .to the tnea..'
sure, that it had injured, our national 'reputation.
`The Honourable Gentleman and he must surely
see the.sobjea in a.. very different View,' since the
very point Which , the Hon. Gentleman considered
as a matter of charge, he meant' to 'have urged in
order to spew that Ministers were entitled to raise.
In order to Shew that our 'national chataler had
t been injured) the Hon. Genticnian had contended

that we had broken our faith with our Allies, he
supposed by Allies-he 'meant .the ,Turks ; but- the
Hon. Gentleman should recolle& that we had other
41.1 lies, -Viz. the Austrians ; pnd what would they
have said, if, at a moments'When'they werkL.eon-
tenditig in Italy. against the French with forces so
equally balanced, that the contest was at last de-
cided by a hattle,..otstather by fraCtion of a bat-
tle, for three fourths of the battre
the Anstians ; wha't would they have said, if, when
matters were .so nearly :balanced, we., had- suffeijed.
ts,ooo or more of the best Troops - of France ro
have been throw'w into the scale against them ? It
had. been stateda. that .the French would, have been
lauded iniFrance, not in Italy ;-but that Wouldohla-
make- a difference of about three weeks ; fist they
certaihly would . have been marched into Italy.
It would be impossible to persuade the AuStrrans,
under these circumstances;' that' we had not sacri-
ficed 'the- general 'cause for oar in-
terest. As to the argument, that they.:would not.
have' 'arrWed time enough to have
given any efEeetuar, assistance to the French,
it was certainly a little difficult to ~tell whether
they would Or not, before•hand, unless it had been
previously known on what day. the Battle ofMa-
rengb4ould tae fought, and what would best* issue
of it. Biit'bY sitting "in the' 'manner in which the
Government of this-Country acted upon that occa--
slots, our National'ClaaraCter was 'maintained; and
we liad.shewn the world, that we preferred a stria
atiherenceto our Public Faith -to any advantages,
however great;
.which we might gain. by a viola-.
lion, of it. This then was one ijf the-advantages
which we-had gained by our-decision upon that oc-
casion. This alone 'was most material,: but it was
not all, we had since obtained other comp.24sakiLUts.
No man certainly could enter into a comparison of the,
value iaf" the lives' of men, and the glory and advan.:
cages which we 'might obtain at such.an expellee ;,
but the loss having been incurred, it certainly, was
proper to consider the advantages we had obtained.
It would not heaupposed be contendcd.that the re-
putation. of a Country did not 'constitute part of its
strength, particularly in she preserA times. It did
so happen, that' since the commencement of that
system which was to make all men Brethren, and
consooyently. •to introduce universal'. Peace among
mankinll War seemed to- have becotne the whole
businesa,oflife ; since the time that arms and warfare
were to be laid aside for ever, the whole of Europe
had- become as it were one Camp. It did so
happen' - t the very. People . who , first intro.
duccd this .‘,.Sterti of Universal Peace, -immediately
formed themselves into a Nation of armed Robbers,'
and mane •,i,aE upon all their neighbours -solely' for
the purposes of plunder, and -nos Nation was safe
that did not inunctliato,y convert leself.into. a Na.
tion of Soldiers. This being the vase, he.could not
but think that the military- reputation of a COmitty
was now ,more important than it ever was in for Mer
times ; becaust France,. which, Wlls alw4s one. Of
the most- warlike States iu Europe, had now be.
come More so than eser. -tie 'therefore never liked
those who, while they put no holinds to their
eulogitrtns on the military merit of France; at the
same time held a very . different -language to this
Country. We were advised not- to hope of forming
an' Army, and ,almast To renounce the use of •nrms.
It always'appeared to him, that thus to exalt the
merit of the Enerny, and to depress the _spiiits. of
the People of this Country, was, to use no harsher
expression, very unseasonable. If every qountry
would do the same, and renounce arms for ever, it
would certainly be •fortunate for natokind ; . but
while
,wehad an armed Nation at our doortsch as
France Was) e thobe who advised-us to Jrmipish
;t. .
our means of defence, must be either so stu-
pid or, -so 'depraved that • till attempts to con-
vince them must be 'hopeless. When , we
considered the, etfeit .which the recent iv'ents
in:Egypt mast have upon our Military it could'erit
but be.observed, • that it was perhaps more necessary
now than at anyformer -period. We could not,dis-
aemble from ourselves, that while our Naval glory
had been great beyond *all: .fortner. example,., taut it
became somehow or other a fashion -to depress the
Military charaaer of the' Counrry. Every traitor
in this Country willingly took up the notion, and
propagated it with aetivity and pleasure ; it even
gained ground' among foreign Nations, who were
either a4uated by, a love Of wonder, or perhaps they
could not look' upon our unexampled Naval successes
Without feeling something like envy, and therefore
it was said, that though we had by some means or
other got a knack of conquering by sea, yet that, at
land we Were inferior to the French'. There cer-
tainly Were some causes, that led people in this Conn-
try to entertain that opinion, and one was the, state
and condition of-the -Army es—He did not
,mean tcs
say, that .our Army in its worst state, was superior
to any otlyr•ArminYurope.,ibut he would 'contend,
thatfor a certain species of service, they certainly
were inferior to no Troops in the world. One- reason
why our Army was not in eVery, respect stf good as
some of the Troops upon the Continent, was, that Our
Establishment before the-War was so low, that we had
as it were, to' make up an Army min sudden. Then
the great mortality which was occasioned by un whole.
soaTielimates was to be taken into consideration, so
pial a fad, our Army had alivayS been coin-
posed, if' he might use Ile expression,. of raw. Mitt..
Trwe loaked to the Expedition which was
sent to Holland, .evety Gentleman must know the
'manner in
.v.;.ich that. Army was formed, but he
believed that thos.e. who would be inclibed to speak
Pie most in its.praise, were those. who had to eon,
tend against it, and though -that Expedition failed
in some of its objeas, 'yet upon every occasion in
which Our Troops were engaged in that Country,
whether in offensive or defensiveeope
this,ations, bhtey(;
cwiercremttslstaazssuofccessful . Notwithstanding
the war did certainly throw a
of -shade over our ArMy. The glory' of our
kind
Navy was so great, that every other service, was
swidaes,overlooked,uintldat:7tiaevlserle
6. our attention was engaged on one
ci:lasretilmt 'csvraerL'e,l7ll:tatl°lenee‘lrceg'n'ts. Int
. ,
-Egypt oceurred.: Whole. wars Might pas over
-without 'affording an -opportunity
mg 'our strength with the Enemvo.f -I:lljurtlY•ine&t,sl,7t
,
the very scene seethed to he chosen for t suit
hie
t:i.eirilgdtrha—wilthfero-tinwer-bAermwioerla.
seemed
• as it were
to
e
They were bUth
left without any other resourcess-but that which they

could draw from their own courage and _disepline,
they had no Allies, to share the, merit of victory,
or bear the digrace of defeat. Their motto seeancl
tot be V Vidi, and all they eked was aOw
stage, and no favoureWho were those whom we con-
tiered ? not Greeks .or- Copts, Batavians nor Cisale
pines, who have been found to recruit these Armies,
by which they had been conquered, but the.tried,.tht
ZiOseff,-- tlre—bnt dittroPreof-Ftzt nee,: we were -eon
tending with the pride and glory of the Republic-,
with 'Trots is whom the French -themselves would
Ta—ve7eTiOseini4S-Ire depositaries‘ of their Military
characters would -not say that those we had
beaten were theebest•-of those Troops who had been
nt to Egypt,. -but undoubtedly having remained
the longest, they had more of:that 'eharaeler Which.
is supposed to belong- to:Veterans. We knew what
they thought-of themselves.--we kneW that they
boasted that they would destroy us if they once"
caught us out -of our Ships ; but, like the young,
and uettied Orlando, we overthrew the experieneed
wrestler, and he might say, that upon this occasion
we had given them a Rowland for their-Oliver. He
would-not say,. in thOaegeage Of tie same Piece,
that " no tine would, entreat. them to anotherco.'
coueteer."- ,He
.would not d© the French Army in
Egypt injustice: he did not doubt but that they-
would venture another encounter not ,ay
that-fortune might not be favourable to-theta in it;
but this he, would say, that from this time ferth no.
French Army would ever meet an: Army with
alt7OWthtiln).agt ithikeey ef-eeaeullitingnst: fre°9l yntitteloriinP at n;yrh;l:TPluaruitiYj
of courage or' discipline. • He thought he ha't a
right to, urge all these to the House as cot9Pensit7-
tiens for our losses ; we might sustain still greater
tn-!lpactseei..)t,hfie.l iiii.ce,dr
no umai~_ 4tui- (zshaiye, b.
tiGlaordwfbet‘,vicilr}e4loti-
,tit
of. Fortunes .beach:; but whatever the event might
lie, it could not take from us our glory e in-that.
respe6t we were. out ,of the reach of detect. lie
dia,
not urge these considerations as a justificatioh "
the vandal of• Ministers, but as compensations for
the losses we had sustained. He really did. not
think it necessary for him to occupy vote of dle
time of :the 1-lbuse, and to•prevent it from proceed"
ing to other business; as the lion. Gentleman h!lit
not advanced one argument upon the subjed, that
had not been before cothpletty answered. kle wa"-
howie'ver, glad , the subjett had beep introduced, he.
cause' it gave him an opportunity of tnakiog thest
few observations, .and of doing justice to the
Lary cbarader.of the Country, This was a subjea ur"
which our children and grand-children would die'`"'
with pride—they would talk of Egyh. t and of A
c ttorst ay. with as much exultation as we had heat
accustoluedie,till „thee degenerate. days, to Si)COC
CRFssy anti. of Act NcoußT. ; but this was rot: it
the Enemy might attempt to invade_us, to endeavour
to do,-that 'which he believed was their object from
in the. comeneenient of . the War, viz. to. effi:d
rtlifl ; in such a case would our atchievements
in
Egypt have no -:ran -in inspiring .the peeple 01
England ith confidence, and • throwing -a. &OP
upon- the Enetny ?- The French wete.tonfident 1-I;4°
cause they lied been generally ii_teeesafule4 •
71 • ros,synt qua posse vitleiutir. - ;
He was- sorry: to say, that giving 'Many
Coonrty'3. tile common logulge was; '" 7
'French are invincible,, mops eati 'meet then) "
le
the field, our Army. cannot Stand, before them,
must lay down our ArmS, and throw out''°ve'
-the tender it-let-cies of our Enemy ;". such laogtwt4
had beeti.•usedaild, would be.bsed by th.e
considered the.- cause `of France as their own.
?hose who had been led to despond by_ wcAdY.c,`:,,,,,
lacing the power of the Enemy, -and 'vette- ,J'a,l'),.l-1..!
,our own, would henceforth entertain a_
doubt
the valour'and diseiplioe of:the .Be.iiikt:'.lll-"Is,
With respeet to the subjea now- before the lu,tiee;
he felt nwankiety el;cry .argureerie-that
Avaneed had been repeatedly ansWered,. aed I°*tile
fore, he shoUld not trespass any.longer
attention of the House,
Mr. NICHOLLS, supported the Motion.
100
Mr: .GREY Said, he was inch sur'prize4l' at 111,40,
of the observations that fell from the Right
n6urable':Gentleman. He had occiipied.whic a c°,11130
derable time in' answering observations ,'.' ibe
had made ; lie hki entered into a .defence (--)
no
Military Charader Of the Country, th99o in
attack had ever been* ade upon itMinisters .1
, at kcait'i
his hearing. The *Plmans, which
formed_ had. been censured • but he never
any imPutation thrown
our - Who was. there so stupidor ab 3b
norant, as to suppose that a British "inny,
inns composed of the same ‘inateritti3 as tile '‘'o'4,
would insinuate a doubt' of their' steadiness an'ic
1,
1-age ?.. The' Hon. Gentleman had stated, that °10„i,
'out egainSt the bravery.
DnnuiFekroiorikus,.efatal.nridiu:krl;ersin%Yve'
Continent people did not entertain s<sa- high
absadit.
prizing they should form such opinion, th° lot to
point of fad :those. failures were at t riblirahl6
any went of couragegin ontSoldiers, but t° ftorivea.
Ferrol were considered, wA9ll,a,ia
surdity of the-plans • which Ministers hid drat tta
The Rf.*Hoi-L.Gentleman had also stated, ; • eras
ins
mdeetserwvierli:
Europe was jealous. of 'our stieeesses:
nice }tats.
rather a singular assertion,- after fighting ~„/
fplouriatrhethdea
tli%%%eeraatineed onto'.
tEtjulreoplesr;emith:vassliort'llit,l:o`l?:enitiliiic,
objetis of je.nlousv. He' had srate'tl.th3t. 4 that
J an
tart' reputation was thrown into the ?11;".e, Jo.
our
we wanted an oiTortunity retrievirl ,csirAt
ratter ; he never heard before that it wls.Yoiatioat
to fight a battle 'merely for military' r.9-tureee-e
VII TITO'
:1\:v10-le)00.diyt
tth-jr,nekeets.nsoarrye
hlg.'•,ly' of that
than he but he could nut but lament
bee, ocher,t.
tbco, tt -should be employed in such a contest, c,
is
Convention of. ‘EI-Arish hod
would have been unnecessary to have "11_,_ 611011
Egyilt at all. If it was iodislynsable that."' ,t
ut—ose
try our etteee-th with _the French? .147 as•
Theatre was wanting, might ,they
cessary
„
to go to -Egypt rur that pnoli 1131,1 c. becCr:
tiernan had stated, that one reason "`
tihijOrne'l
was defee,tive that the rea. 0,0
vinp oy in. rortugal ? The Righ.t- jyte:
•Gentleinanl•opinion, for .retneful-rtcy:al end Ii
:vas- too low.: this' teas not alwey's the
Wale' witeil the Right, 'lice". Gencic.
agreed in politiOal opinions, concurring _

i

~
1
Is

. ,
in Motions for redsicirig"Ofir Standing Arrny, Much '
• had been said ahoutpor :good • faith, and about the
precarlebs; siruation of digits in Italys when the
order was sent out stn t. Fici'-stiffer. the Freisch to
leave Egypt ; but. it she fil`:lse recollected, that
those orders were sent out..it December, and that at !
that times' the Fr-ens-AY were nOt,supposed,to -be able
to resist the Allies in Italy, -But.if we oweßkgood
faith to the Ausfriafw-we • also awed it to the
Turks, whcr'-'w ere our Allies-as %Venlig the Abstrians ; •
and in breaking the convention of E1..-Arish, we nei-
..therslit.'W'ed gond i !h. rr3r policy „s-:- flti was -glad. to ,
Hon. Gentleman-speak insech terms of the
Ftericli-Artly'in Egypt, they certainly were worthy •
to be °PPenesi• to our Troolisi-noisvithstanding the
repulse they 11.:M-stissained.,- flit.' he would not admit
that we had gained, a vi6torr. It:was -now found -
convenient to represent the-French Army in Egypt
as mrs,st formidable, but .he .remembered when-a
very eiffrent lanktnyge was- held; ?and when. they
-
•wet-! teisitsen ed as reduced almost to nothing, and
wanii4,Allitbst every neeessary-l-le concluded with
itati;rg, thlt upon these grounds he should
support
,t 1 =e Motion.. . • .
• •
Mr. PITT desired that-. the MOtiori -might be
leads - • .. • ,
The E Are it-was proceeding to readtheNotion
• -*heti. .
MS-. PITT said, lie would not give those Gentle.,
Tien who had heard the motion the trouble of hearing
it read over again. If the objea of the Hon.
Gentleman ,vas- io know who, were the advisers of.
the measure; some 'trouble . might be saved, for
neither he nor his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. .D11:1-
bss)- had any -hesitation in stating Aar they were
t'va of the persons. who advised it-; and if the object:
'l.'4- the- Hon. Gentreman was only 'to knowsagainst
whom he was to diret't his charge, that object was
slut,v obtained. .Not_having teen in the. House at
the commencement of the debate, he should not
trouble the House at any length, he wished merely
to observe Upon,somt of the topics whiclr had been
urged by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last. He'
7"11): did not know that 'any Motion of this kind
a' to be made on this day ; if he had expressed any
'lO-twrion-of not being present again upon MotiOns
of this sori,it did riot proceed from a wish to show any
to anY Gentienians or from any intention of
ot at tendingsto the proceedings of t'arliany-nt, Imt he
really thought-it more respedful to the House when it
,
declitrd it-self satisfied upon any 'poirst, not to
t'ce'd I,y its time by,dellating the subjcrt merely be.
.4att''e tine.' Honourable Gentleman, or a' fcw.'Gen-
'-'entc-nr.ruight still 'remain unsatisfied. The Ho-
Octarable Gsnttensin bad ade. several remarks
"1' - the Speech of his. Right Honourable Friend,
(111-r.
), but they .seemed to- have been,
01 founded ,iii misapprehension. His Right
124"rable Friend had not stated that it was ju-sti-
'able to-tintiertake.an expedition rlitlelY to lave An,
''PPortunity of d;,plairig • our military powers
jet this was the sentiment .Which. the Hon. Gentle.
hian had attribinid to him,. though lie--was sure it -!
r misapprehension, There.
Acre
'two; points which Iris Right Hon. Friend had
nistiliguished, which the Hon. .Gentlei-nan-had Con-
. It:ived c.ciinpletely to. o:isf-otintl. :His Right Hon.
Ifend had defended the measure in question as
lug proper at' the time it Wits adopted, and had
contended, thou ssh bad consequences li.tds_ ensued,
Yet if the:f4c 4:re 'was 6riginally-righ;, it :could
'ut be a just ground of censure 'against Ministers-- ,
a Vtiliosiiion so clear and so r videnify. founded in
e4s°ll4'that,he was sure no man could seriously deny
' He would ask, if there was any man living who
did not
,feel, as indeed the Honourable Genii:Allan,
who spike 144'11113.5t feel; it being part ofsni heredi.,
12,rY spirit of that lion. Gentleman to feel, for, the,
glory- acquired is_suy the British -Arms.; indeed there
I‘as not, he believed, a Met:3lloin that House who
d bi.d not participate-in the 'sentiment .expressed by his
'Olt lion. Friend' ( M r.. JEDUM4) 4Q-6igh-ri• and
yet he was sorry to observe, that the .Hon, Gentle.
Than, although he said- he never concurred, in any,
expression to damp .the ardnur of tbe.Pe°Ple, or tar.
fish the lustre of the British 'Army, had laboured
'IP tell the House, that the Force of this .Cosim ry,
as far its it related to its Army, had, not. been con-
Tleted in any, way to produce to, us any thing but
sibs-aster. The Ham Gentleman: bad preserved a
Rteat.deal of ibis disenuraging temper throughout.
lbe leading parts of his Speedh to-night, for he had
risisted unit that we should not think-of making
uP a Military Force ofgreat weight on the Conti.
cent, and this at a season. when the militarrexer-
v'243 rat this Country were most conspicuous, from
Cry reient instances, amid one. particnlatlyglorious
TT,141,164e, an atchievement ,which wits never sur-
ArAkt, in ..either skill or:: valgors the British
tns ; however, at such a time, and under such
it, that thelinn. Gentleman hadit4isred on
(3 that
stiould not `.at a great MilitarY
d natatler On the costineot, but that we, should
b,e-Pend9n our Naval Strength, which was. the flail
rye adapted to our insular 'Putt indeed.
,„er should have aii Ariny,, but that .should have a
Wccustorned to.
'lerenee to such a Military Force gns we
wilt-tilllz
hasie iniimee past, and, of
reference to the Asmies Of the with whom we
?, VC to contend—aboveall, that Ave should never
bndeavour to have. an Army' whose operation can
eel(Wled tEI litrVe any considerable effed on the
continent. Such wits.the. substance of the Speech
of
the 44"
,_111•Q m cntiean at this,' extraordinary period.
t„--w,ue .knew not in what sense Gentlemen meant
aPply these genei'al observations6pon our
tasure
. :in a .gcngrapi)ical sense, he
.was,
gilt he knciv not exam ly what distindion they
pj?tntetilled to make—if ihe'y meant to say that a
unity like ours, .having so.much persossal;proper-
411tquircd-by Trade, Commerce, .arid .PartiCLOAflY
e,444ol2tdure, and Naving, by .tri4:4isscry,
,acquir-
", such decided sti seriori:y of Finance and other
ati"At' Ithe
„ dg,es over sall the_ Nations of Earth,
e% '1" nat have-so numerous an .Army as others, he.
for'!d under Stand them.S—lf 'they oz. ht,.
wa these reasons, :to limit oar tailitary Tort*, .he
s ready-to admit It. If they-meant to -say that
4nv!'light in 4 great degree rely on Outsnaval strength
co 'lit 1 vantages of an insular situa'tiOn, he Could,
a 2trehesti them, and, t& a given 'extent, he -could
them ; but if (114 etrricd this &incl.%
indirfetent to the foi re 91.1 the
that lie could nor assent to i .
t. It wo true,
Lad done4nueL itrilie-Letiuse we

were engagesi; oar Naval Power, and brae!. S
sidies, but that by o 9 means excluded ,the
mions this' country by Means of a military -friteel,
We had not indeed added much as Principals in the
warin a military sense, but we must_not - from
thence conclude that the British Military force at all
times, and under all citcuinstances, should be small
or inconsiderable. We had aeteii upon a different
principle ,throughout the war, and by our exertions
we had not only saved ourselves aa?riumphed in
every instance in which we had ad opportunity of
shewing:our • skill and val Our, Out we had afforded
`the-rest of the world many Ciliporttinities -Of being
saved from devastation; and the -prineipli-on Which
we had afted would be dene away by the
system-rectnntnended - by the Hem •Gentleman.—
.ButsuppOsing the Hon,Gentlenao to be right in the
general principle, that we should on the Continent
be sparing in our Military exertions ; on the. Co-
ntinent was an unqualified expression—reould any
man tell him, that because the ocean sets limits to
Certain parts of what we call the' Continent,
there were no parts of it on which a British mili-
tary farce could not ad to advantage, especially when
we considered how we might supply our transmarine
Stations and Establishments by our Naval Force.
gut the Hon. Gentleman had found fault with the
Government of this Country for not sending the
Force which we did send to Egypt, to Portugal,
for he said that to save Portugal was or ought to be
a greater objeft .to us than that of endeavouring to
dislodge the Enemy from Egypt. How the Hon.
Gentleman meant to have employed the British
Troops to the defence of Portugal, he wai at a loss
ro conjeeture, since the Hon. Gentle Man had not
been sogood as to point it out. As to the utility of
the plan of, sending our force to Egypt, independent
of the glory attached to the British name by our
efforts there already, it should be remembered that
the Enemy had long been in possession of the place.
We had already been able to dispute titat possession.
with them, and to render it doubtful at least.—
Thew had not been able to send any reinforcement
to their -Troops there, although our distance from
the place.wa.s very great, and some of their Ports •
comparatively almost contiguous ; but if the Hon.
Gentleman really thought that at the time we sent
our Troops' to Egypt, we could have employed them
mnore to advantage in the adual defence of Portugal,
under ail time circumstances of that time, if such
were really the politics • of the Hon. Gentleman,
he must be excused for wishing to hear the Ho-
nourable Gentleman explain himself) for at pre_
,sent he really did not understand' him..--But, the
• Honourable Geoileinan had adverted also to the
order of our Government in December 1 amaem.—
Now he wished to Observe in passing, that' when
instructions were sent to 'Lord
_by which
he had no discretion, Government had no know-
ledge that the Convention which did take place had
been agreed to. We only supposed something of that
kind might take place between the Turks and the
French General, But the moment there was a
Convention concluded, although it was not by a
person who had power to do so, Government did •
not forbear to mention its disapprobation of that
measure on the part of a man (Sir S. SMITH) whOse' •
services tJ his country in other respecti were equal
perhaps to any thing that ever was performed' -by •
man; but although 'Government did disapprove of
this one unauthorised aft of this extraordinary of_
. firer, yet no sooner, did they learn that he had en-
tered Into the treaty, than they ordered- it to be
confirmed on our part ; no slight proof of -a scrupu-
lous delicacy on our part. But when the Orders.
were sent to Lord KEITH, they were sent on a
cusp cion of an agreement between. the Grand
at td d the French General. An application
was made to the King's- Ambassador for Passports.
ritere was no right in the Porte to conclude a
Treaty which purported to be 'binding on our in--
terests, for we were engaged as well as they were
iu the enterprise ; the King's Ambassador was not
tie Peisori to grant the Passporti, and the diredion'
given to, Lord Ka I Ili was, not to regard •PasspOrts,
for which there was no authority. But the Hon.
Gentleman had said, that this was at a time w hen
it was representetion'the part of the then Atimini-
, stration, that there were the most sanguine-hopes and
expetations of the Army of the Allies going to
France, and making there a progress which the
'French could not oppose. The. Hon. Gentleman.
was Jileased to say, he remembered what he (Mr.
riTT) said on that occasion, to which ;he was
pleased to add, that it made an impression on him.
'This, however, he Said, he did from his own me-
mory. ' Now the Hon. Gentleman had imputed to
him an absurdity which he .had never uttered.
What he stated on that occasion,. to which the Ho-
. minable Gentleman referred, was in substance .this
• .----That, considering: all the circumstances of the
time to which he was then referring, considering
all the ptohable
_advantages -and the certain disad-
vantages of a Negotiation, that it was. for the: in-
terest of this Country that the Negotiation was re-'
jeded•—thmit he added, there Was a probability the
'Allies would obtain important advantages over the••
French, was most true, nor was he ashamed of
having Aid- that was a probable event at that .pe-
riod. LoOking back on all the events of that day,
he was justified, even now, to saying that it was
ploblable—the event did.not answer hisexpeftation,
was true also, but that was not owing to any defeet
either, in the valour or skill of our Force, or the
want of prudence in our Councils ; it depended on
events over which we had no controul. But, then
the Hen. Gentleman appeared to be very angry ,With
.hisßight Hon. Friend, for having made use- of the
phrase, a' kraftio-n o a Battle. That, phrase was
rather a part of that' matheinatical.accuracy Which
his Right Hui. Friend was accustomed to, than
unfortunately belonged to a subjea of this.kind, to
whieh, lie f,rared, it was incapable of being,reduced ;
-but .the Phrase had a very 'clear meaning. The Hon.,
''Gentleman had treated, it as an absurd
,expression
he-had said' the Fragment of,a.Battle,whieh deeided•
the .fate -of Europe! It had 'unfortunately too long,
delayed what he hoped Would ultimately be the fate
of Si rape ; bur instead of •opposing the.. argument
of his 'Right Hon. Friend, the floa. Gentleman was
erifOrcina it ; for it appeared clearly,' most clearly
-at the. B:ittie-ofl‘larengem, That the-fate of it was so
tong susii•ended, :Ind 'the, balance 'so nearly -even;
was almost to 'the last hour doubtful .how it
would termina:e, stud the
_pit:ailing his Right

•
• • •
nen. Friend was, not that the_Battle itself was
mere Prigment of Military'gxertioti; but that the
Stale was long fieldso even, that ihe slightest addi-
tional weight ;flit-tied it,. and in thi, seta. the Fate
of the battle was clecid?,d -by a Fragniot.: A. few,
more men would have enabled the Austrians to ob-.
lain the, viaory of that day by which a favourable
turn would -have been given :to the affairs of this
world; it, however, untbitunately.turned out other-
wise, While these affairs tvere:going-on, we were
too much interested in the- fate of Europe to attend
to: Egypt; not that we did not always think it
important, but-that we did not think itso important
"as the then impending fate of thegreater part of ,Eu-
rope ; but when those affairs took another turn,
.we then considered of. disputing the - posiession of
Egypt_ with the enemy,, that being in a. given state
of things the-_ most immediately important as con-
neEted with the probable fate of .the .chief part of
the habitable globe; While the independence of
EitrOpe was in a state which required our-aid, there
was no dastardly principle of Self-interest that ope.
rated Upon us.—We afforded- cur aid cheerfully.--
The fortune of war might for a while he unpeopi-
..

tious, but we having Been always true to our prin..
cipies and faithful to our promise, had no mortify-
ing refledion or disgrace attached to us. We
would not look on Egypt while the fate of Europe
remained in suspense, for we then were ac-
tive, and did every thing that depended on us
to make that fate favourable: to Europe.— /
Events took a turn in which our efforts did
not appear to be likely to produce the desired died.
Therefore, then, Egypt became the objea of our
'exertion; and these eiertions had been already
favouNble to the British Arms. • But to take
the other side of the case, and to suppose we,
instead of sendirg our Troops to ' Egypt, had
sent them to :make an impression_ on France, as
the Hon.-Gentleman had expressed a wish we had,
the next point would be, to consider what the pro- '
bable result of that would have been ; because we'
were not sure that, if we entered France, we should
meet the French force' • in-a point or manner that
might be- suitable to our wishes. So that this
way of talking, of opposing France at home instead
of going. to -Egypt, was a mere evasion of the real
gnestion -now before the House; and much of what
the Hon. Gentleman had stated to-night, "had ex-
cited his surprize. Hokvever, the short observation
he made at the commencement of his Speech) would
tend to shorten the Debate tonight; he meant that
of avowing the responsibility of having advised the
course which was taken in the aft-airs of Egypt.
It was stated that this business was • to become the-
' subjed matter of a charge againSt His Majesty's.
late. Ministers. He was ready to meet such charge
' wheoever brought. He had only to add„ that he
hoped- the House would forgive him for the trouble,
he had given it to-night.
Mr.GREY' explained, as did also Mr. WI NDHA/A.
Mr. MARTIN returned his thanks to the. Gin-
denten who had spoken so hands*ely of the courage
and skill of our ArmY. He was glad to .say, that
he never heard an individual say any thing to. the
disadvantage of our Military, any more than our
Naval Force. He could not help wishing, how-
ever, that our Military Exertions were, made with a
little 'more discretion : He thought, thatlf they
were, we might save many thousand lives.
Sir GEO. DALLAS maintained, that in the sub-
•.
jed of Egypt, flis 'Majesty's former Mintsters had
been charatsd with miscondul, in the case of the
Treaty of Sir SIDNEY Sattrx. That subjed-must
rest on- two grounds, for there were no. other : that
of the`justice, and policy of the measure.. He en-
larged on boar these topics, and maintained, that
both justice and policy were with His Majes,ty's
Ministers on this occasion, and said, he should vote
against the Motion.
Mr. ROBSON .condemned the conduct of His
Majesty's late Ministers, and supported the Mo.
tion•
Mr. ELLISON complained that this subjed had
been too often before the House, this being the
12th time.—This he hardly thought right,' when'
public business remained to be done—He thought
His Majesty's late Ministers, to censure whose con.
dud was the objed of the present motion, deserved
great praise of the People, and he believed they
had it, for that 19 out of zo of the whole Country
approved oftheir condud ; and.in this resped their
condud was, in his opinion, eminently _praise-
worthy. • .
Mr. JONES made a short reply.
After whieh the House divided
For the Motion 27
Against it - - r3B

While Strangers were excluded, we understood,
that on reading the Order of the Day on" the In-
demnity Bill, which .was for the second /coding of
it, a division took place,'
For the Bill - . 128-
Against it
?

• ;
When Strangers wet', admitted, we found • ,
Mr.:ADD ING7QN.up::.--fle said, that as to the
Indemniti Bill,. (as we undertitood, for we did not
hear what
.Bill), he should propose to have it read a
second time to night.• That, as to the I.Ubjea of
Supply, and Ways and Means, of which an• I i.!:.
Relation !Of his had. given notice for Friday' next, it
~vas his intention' to postpone it until ly1(13y, and
lie propoSed also going into a Comthittee on the
Indemnity Bill on Friay. •
The QUC!itiOil was then put on the Bill, and it
was rCad a second time, and ordered to be
►nittcd to a Ciiii)tnittee athe. Iv hole :Rouse on
,Friday. ,
- Mr. DUN!) AS said, he shOuld bring, forward
Financial Affairs of India on Mundaylatit •this he
changed to Wednesday the regnest. of `Mr.
-o1N410?1, to make way for the c'tionniqee of
Ways and Means on Monday.
Mr...7O`NES desired Mr. DONBAS to 4Clay the
affairs of India still further, on account of some:
supposed defiCiency of docuMents.'
Mr. DUNDAS said, he co•ald not delay thediu,
rsinesS further. than Wednesday, and on that tit he
'‘ivhoetllt
Papersco n It7oi cwe
itchiel
Sir W. ktaiOßD .
(111. Gentleman' himself that
he
- saidal
could not,distindly•hear. • .
dfcedwt.vueproerd%o: 1111 V Itilie4.:llil,;Vti
Mr. ABBOT Moved the Order of the Day for die
second reading of tile Id h Martial Law Bill.
'the Bill was Kalil a econd time. On

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