The Sun.
London, England, 1862-03-22 00:00:00

THE NAVY.

Sir J. HAY then rose to ask the Secretary of the Admi-
ralty to state whether it was the intention of the Board of

Admiralty to continue to withhold from the captains on the
reserved list the pay to which they were entitled under the
Order in Council of 1851; and moved that an humble ad-
dress be presented to her Majesty, praying her to take into

her most gracious consideration the case of the reserved
captains of her Majesty's navy. The hon. and gallant
member said that this was a question as to the legal cor-
aruction of an Order in Council under which certain offi-
cers in the navy were induced to accept a position which
it appeared to them the order in council gave them, but
which had never been carried into effect, and consequently
a breach of faith had been committed by the Admiralty.
The state of the reserved lists was one of inextricable con-
fusion, but as the bargains made under the order were
entered into with their eyes open, these officers had no claim
upon the house. But this was the case of the aggrieved
captains of the navy, who were told that though their ser-
vices would not probably be required afloat, they should
receive the same benefits and the same rewards as their
brethren of the active list. There could be no doubt that
these captains had a legal claim to the slight increase of pay
of 2s. a day, but it appeared that through some error in
framing the order, they had been cajoled out of it. If these
officers had justice done to them, their increased pay would
not cost the country more than the sum of £6 is. 6d. a day
in the aggregate, and he hoped their claim would receive
the attention of the noble lord the Secretary to the Admi-
ralty. (Hear, hear.)
Admiral 14 ALCOTT, in seconding the motion, said he
could confirm what his hon. and gallant friend had stated
in reference to these captains, and he sincerely trusted that
the noble lord the Secretary to the Admiralty would have
the good sense to propose to secure to these gentlemen the
additional pay to which they were justly entitled. He did
not agree that any attempt had been made by the right
hon. baronet the member for Portsmouth (Sir F. Baring)
to "cajole" these officers, for he believed the right hon.
baronet, at the time he drew up the order, had no intention
that these officers should rise to an increase of pay and
rank. He (Admiral Walcott) was sorry that that was so,
for great injustice had been done to them. (Hear, hear.)
He was decidedly of opinion that the officers were entitled
in common justice to what they claimed.
Lord C. PAGET agreed with the gallant officer the
member for Christchurch in regretting that the hon. and
gallant gentleman should have applied such a term as
" cajole" to the right lion, baronet the member for Ports-
mouth, who had left the Admiralty with the good opinion
of the whole navy for his fairness and ability. (Cheers.)
Those were, happily, things that First Lords, at least at
the present day, never did. (Laughter.) He believed that
a great many of the officers referred to by the hon. and
gallant member did conscientiously think that they had
suffered a wrong ; but he (the noble lord) was positive that
there was nothing, either in the form of their commissions,
or in the hopes held out to them, or in the circumstances
of the case, to justify them in the idea that they had a right
to be considered in the same position as officers on the ac-
tive list. The fact was there were two classes of officers
dealt with. In the first place, there were commanders who
were not entitled by seniority to be placed on the captains
list; in other words, who would have had to wait years
and years before they attained to that rank. Those the right
hon. baronet offered to promote at once, and to place them
on the retired list, intending that to be in lieu of all future
promotion. The other category consisted of commanderswhose
removal to the reserved list had been compulsory, and
who had certainly been promised that the step should not
affect their prospects as to promotion. The position of the
two classes was thus materially different; those of the re-
tired list being no longer liable to serve. It would with
justice be felt a great hardship by those who were on the
active list, if officers who were exempt from duty were en-
titled to rise with them pail passu. (Hear, hear.) He
would really ask, therefore, if the hon. and gallant member
knew what it was that he desired ? Ho world in fact be
inflicting a great hardship upon the very persons whom Le
was seeking to serve. It was perfectly true that the order
in council had not been quite so distinctly worded as he
could have wished—(hear, hear)—and the Board of Admi•
rally had, in consequence of that ambiguity, considered
what course they could take to satisfy these officers. Two
years ago he (the noble lord) proposed a scheme to benefit
them according to the length of Limo they Loa eipeut is
active service. Those who had served more than a certain
number of years received a considerable augmentation of
pay ; and of the 90, upwards of 70 had thus been benefitted,
soma of them actually receiving as much as 6s. a day more
than they would have if they were on the active list. If
the hon. baronet's proposal were agreed to, those officers
would have to lose that advantage. Thus what was asked
for,was to inflict a considerable damage on more than three-
fourths of them ; besides which, there could be no doubt
that it would produce great discontent in the navy a large.
(Hear, hear.)

Sir J. HAY begged to explain that he had no wish what-
ever to charge the right hon. baronet (Sir F. Baring)--for
whom he had the greatest possible respect— with intending
to cajole any officers. What he meant to say was, that those
officers had been cajoled by the way in which the docuMent
was worded. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON was very glad to hear the hon.
and gallant member's explanation, and he should like now
to know what construction the noble lord meant to place
upon the phrase "First lords, at least at the present day 1"
(Laughter.)
Lord C. PAGET intended it, of course, to include the
right hon. baronet. (Laughter.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON in that case entirely agreed with ,
the noble lord. (Laughter.) He believed that the right hon.
baronet the member for Portsmouth was incapable of any
such conduct, and he was glad that the hon. gentleman had
by his explanation acquitted the right hon. gentleman of the
imputation which his words seemed to imply. (Hear.) The
order in council was admitted, however, to have been ambi-
guous; and he submitted that nothing could be more unsafe
than to trust to the explanation which the framer of a public
document might afterwards place upon it. The right hon.
baronet might for instancelowe lost his seatfor Portsmouth,
and then ho would not have been able to give the house
that explanation at all. The proper course was to consider
what the order in council expressed. (Hear.) He (Sir J.
Pakington) had not only had occa-ion to study the instru-
ment himself, but he had high legal authority for saying
that the true construction to be pl aced upon it was in favour
1 of the officers. He had heard with great regret, therefore,
the noble lord arguing on the other side. These officers were
the best judges of their own interests, and when they had
thought fit to have their claims placed before the house it
was not competent to the noble lord to meet them by a
statement that to grant their request would be to inflict a
pecuniary injury upn 70 of them. He appealed to the
generosity of the noble lord to grant their request. (Hear.)
Mr. B. COCHRANE protested against the noble lord
treating the question as if it were a mere financial question.
What the officers wanted was a recognition of their posi- ,
tion in the service. (Hear, hear.)
Lord C. PAGET explained that he did not admit the
wording of the order to be really ambiguous.
Sir F. BARING admitted that even if the order did not
perfectly carry out his intentions, those intentions ought
not to interfere with any just rights which it might have
confer/IA. Still, when there was any doubt as to the meaning
of a public document, it was not unusual to refer to those
by whom it had been framed. He denied therefore that
the order made any promise whatever to the officers whose
case had been brought before the house; There were, as the
noble lord had explained, two distinct classes of officers with
whom he proposed to deal, There were a certain number of
old commanders to whom he had never any intention to
give any further advantage than the promotion which they
received on being placed upon the retired list of captains,
and which, he was bound to say, they at the time gladly re-
ceived. The other class of officers he had merely moved
fr( m the active to the reserved list ; and those he intended
to reta'n all the advantages as regarded promotion which
they possessed before. lie was obliged, therefore, to repeat
that he could not admit that the officers of the former class
had any claim upon the house whatever. (Hear, hear.)
Sir F. KELLY said no one could doubt what the right
hon. gentleman had said about his intentions; but that
which the house had really to consider was what the order
in council said. He did not wish to speak of it as a lawyer,
for it. was not a lawyer's question ; but still he was satisfied
that no court of justice would place on the document a con-
struction adverse to the claims of the officers. (Cheers.) He
considered the case had been very fairly brought forward,
and the scheme of promotion of the previous year could
never be permanent or satisfactory. It was his intention to
vote for the motion of his hon. and gallant friend.
After an observation from Sir H. LEEK;

Mr. WHITBREAD said these officers had last year get a
rise over their normal half pay ten years sooner than they
Could have otherwise expected it. Besides, it was posted up
that the rise could only be given to the first 70 on the retired
and theY
much hundred on the active list. The Admiralty had
.m"uch extendcd the benefit in the case of the retired c
liotreat
The house must understand that an officer could
not
ed et once on the retired and on the half-pay
list. If, therefor©, the
house accepted the motion, it would
deprive
enjoyed in the retired officers of the emoluments which they
virtue of their
Ayes . retirement
. ....................
Noes..
......... 72

THE CIVIL SERV ...
.. .
STIMATES.
............ 66-6
Mr, AUGUSTUS SMITH
resolution :--" That all the civil next fovea ithet following;
exce
g of Parlia-
that for the civil contingencies, ought tubeosltZuct
of this house within one month after the meeting