The Sun.
London, England, 1865-06-10 00:00:00

get rid of the slave. That is being done at the pre-
sent moment. They are dying by hundreds of thou-
sands. (" Where?" and " No.") I then said, and I
say now, that the best way of emancipating the
slaves was to do it gradually and carefully; to fit
them for freedom, and by that means not to incur
the horrible guilt of killing many millions of your
fellow men. (Laughter.) That is all I need say about
America. (" How about recognising the South.") I
am quite sure that if the South had been recognised
great good would have been done. (Cheers.) In
the first place, the arrogant, the overbearing, and
great republic of America would have been split in
two—(cheers and a hiss)—and for the safety of
Europe that is required. (No.) You have not
played out the play yet, my good fellow. (Laugh-
ter.) By and by you will see what will be the re-
sult, and I say that my policy was a wise policy. It
was not accepted by the great council of the nation,
and what did Ido ? When I found that the House
of Commons was resolved not to acknowledge the
South, I held my tongue about the matter. (Cheers,
and a cry of " Good.") I have never mixed in a
debate about America since. I felt that in that great
assembly every word peals throughout the world,
and that every word I utter, insignificant as I may be,
sounds as a trumpet to all mankind. I did not speak ;
I accepted the decision of the House of Commons ;
I thought—l think it wrong, and I hope my coun-
try may not find that I was right. (Cheers.)
There is one thing I want to mention. I have
been told great exception has been taken to me be-
cause it has been asserted that I said I spat upon
the petitions of the people. I never said anything
of the kind. I said "I spit upon your bill." Some
crotchety man brought in abill—not the Permissive
Bill—on Sunday closing, and I said to him—and
the house cheered me—" This is not legislation ; it
is paltry meddling in a matter with which we have
no concern. (Cheers.) I spit upon the bill."
(Renewed cheers.) And so I do. (Continued
cheering.) And if I should be in Parliament, bring
n that bill again, and I will use every faculty I pos-
sess, every power I possess, to turn that bill out.
(Cheers.) Now, gentlemen, it is rather hard work
at this time of day, and on such a day as this, to
speak to such a meeting. I have gone rapidly
through my past life, and through (pausing and
indicating the opposition party amid great laughter)
I was going to say the shallow and fruitless things
they have brought against me. (Cheers, and a re-
mark from his:opponents , to which the hon. mem-
ber responded :—You will find them shallow, and
that lam too deep for you. (Renewed laughter.)
Turning to the meeting, Mr. Roebuck concluded :
I leave my fate in your hands—that is to say, my
political fate. lam not afraid of the result. (Hear,
hear.) I believe that I have done my duty honestly.
(Hear.) I know I have done it fearlessly. (Cheers.)
I don't fear you. (Cheers.) I don't fear anybody.
(Renewed cheering and laughter.) What I think
right I say ; what I think right I do ; and that is
the only promise I make you. For the present mo-
ment lam silent. If there be any gentleman who
wishes to question me let hint do it ; I am ready to
answer. (Hear.) There is no anonymous newspaper
now. We will know the man ; we will know his
objections, and you will hear my answer. That is
fair. (Hear, hear, and " That's English.") Listen
quietly to him, listen quietly to me. In a time you
will have to decide the matter. I have no fear of
the result. Now, gentlemen (turning sharply to the
opposition party) what have you got to say ?
(Loud laughter, and long protracted cheering.)
Mr. M. BEAL came forward to question Mr. Roe-
buck, and intimated that at a later period he should
submit a resolution which it would be for the meet-
ing calmly to consider. He had no personal feeling
against Mr. Roebuck ; on the contrary, he had a
very great respect for him, and only regretted that
he should have deserted the cause of the people as
he had done. His first question had reference to the
last election. Sir John Ramsden and Sir F. Cross-
ley were candidates for the representation of the
West Riding, and opposed to them was Mr. Stuart
Wortley. Mr. Roebuck spoke very bitterly against
Mr. Wortley because he was a supporter of the
Derby Government, which was then in power. Mr.
Roebuck was elected for Sheffield, and the very first
thing he did after getting back to Parliament was
to vote in favour of Lord Derby's Government.
He wished to know upon what grounds Mr: Roe-
buck voted for Lord Derby's Government after de-
nouncing it on the hustings.
Mr. ROEBUCK—I will tell you why. The sup-
porters of Lord Derby then sat on the Govern-
ment side of the House of Commons, and the
Liberal party were in opposition. I turned round
to the Opposition and said, " You (the Liberal
party) cannot carry a Reform Bill ; they (the sup-
porters of Lord Derby) can. They offer us some-
thing ; it will be wise to take it." The House of
Commons did not take it, and what happened ? The
OppositiOn got into power, and they have not car-
ried a Reform Bill yet. (" No, nor you won't.")
I don't think I shall. I say they have not carried
a Reform Bill ; but they have come round to Lord
Derby's Dill. (Never.) They have. Did you
hear what Mr. Lowe said the other day? Did you
hear what Mr. Osborne said ? Did you hear what
Sir George Grey said ? They all say they wish the
constituency to be extended, but not lowered. What
does that mean? It means that they do not intend to
lower the franchise, but that they are ready to take
the fancy franchises Mr. Disraeli offered. On that
ground I voted for keeping Lord Derby in power,
because he would have given us a Reform Bill which
would have admitted lodgers and a number of
other persons to the use of the franchise, which can
never be done by the present administration. (Cheers.)
Mr. BEAL—Mr. Roebuck's explanation proves to me that
he belongs to the Conservative ranks, and is not a suppor-
ter of Lord Palmerston. I now wish to ask whether the
Galway contract was not agreed upon the night before that
vote was given. (Cries of "Shame, shamo !")
Mr. ROEBUCK—The Galway contract was a contract for
the purpose of making a communication between Ireland
and America. I did not see any harm in that. I never
gained one penny by it. (Cheers.) I want to know why
I should not support the Galway contract. Does anybody
tell me it was unwise ? I thought it was a wise one. I

acted for some time with the Galway Company. I left it,
and I never had a shilling from it.

Mr. BEAT.—I leave to the meeting to judge how far the
explanation is Satisfactory. I now wish to ask Mr. Roebuck
why he described the working classes of the North of Eng-
land, and more especially the working classes of his consti-
tuency, as drunkards, wife beaters, and dog fanciers
Mr. ROEBUCK—AII these things are brought in as props
to support Mr. Bears ideas about the Water Bill. (Laugh-
ter.) Now hear my answer. (Interruption.) I was de-
scribing what I believed would be the advantages of educa-
tion. I was lecturing in a cathedral town; I had the bishop
before me, and I dared to say things in his presence which
I take it he never heard before from a layman. I said so
great is the value I attach to education that I believe it
will create different men altogether. There are among
my constituents drunken working men, men who beat their
wives and caress their dogs. I did not say that was the
character of the working man—(Mr. Beal—" You did.") I
say I did not. How do you know; you were not there?
(" The Morning Post.") I said then, and I say now, that if
we could elevate the working classes above these vices we
should be doing a great good to our fellow countrymen.
That is the reason I gave that description. It is a descrip-
tion that does apply to certain men among the working
classes, but not to the whole class. Nor did I say it applied
to the whole class, for I have always been their friend and
acted for them. They never found me wanting; when Mr.
Beal has been asleep I have worked for them. (Cheers.)
Mr. BEAL—The explanation Mr. Roebuck has given is
not in accordance with the reports in the newspapers.
(Hooting, and cries of "Shame.") The next question is
why, when the Water Company presented their bill to him
to bo introduced into Parliament, ho did not consult his
constituents upon the subject ?
Mr. ROEBUCK—Aye, that is it. I did consult them. I
came down here, and in the Council-hall I did consult them.
I found the two parties so diametrically opposed—the Town
Council and the Water Company—that I could do nothing
between them ; that I should only be like the man who in-
terfered between husband and wife—get kicks from both.
(Cheers and laughter.)

Mr. B—l will read Mr. Roebuck's words at the Coun-
cil-hall. (Cried of "What paper are you reading from ?")
From the Sheffield Independent. (Voices, "Hear, hear,"
" That will do ; we won't have it from t'other.") When
Mr. Roebuck met the Town Council he said, " The kind-
ness of the town of Sheffield has given me a great deal of
power as your representative. That power may be used
mischievously or beneficially. Very much will depend upon
the advice and information I receive now while I am in
Sheffield: in regard to the effect I may produce upon the
legislation that will take place. I may state that I have not
a farthing of interest in the matter." Mr. Roebuck after-
wards said, " I wish to hear whether I, as your representa-
tive, ought to aid in carrying this bill through Parliament
or not. My name is at the back of the bill. I want your
advice upon these matters. First, whether the Council
believes there ought to be power to borrow £400,000.

Secondly, whether there ought to be power given to the
Water Company to raise the price of water—power, if
they see it necessary to use it, of increasing the price of
water 25 per cent." Now, Mr. Roebuck, as he says, con-
sulted the Council. They told him as plainly as men could
speak that they were opposed to the 25 per cent. Mr.
Roebuck told them in conclusion that he only wanted to
know their opinions, and he would be glad to follow them
out. "If," ho said, "he know tho wish of the Council, he
thought he knew the wishes of the people of Sheffield, and
the wishes of the people of Sheffield would be his com-
mands." I beg to ask you, were the wishes of the Town
Council and the people of Sheffield Mr. Roebuck's commands ?
(No, no.) Did he do anything to prevent that unjust im-
post being imposed upon us ? (No.) I say we are indebted
to Mr. Roebuck for that tax being levied upon us. (Cries of
"Shame," " Nonsense," &c.) If Mr. Roebuck had said to
the Water Company, " Gentlemen, I cannot endorse your
bill ; I cannot bring it into the House of Commons until
you make proper arrangements with my constituents. [Mr.
Roebuck—" Somebody else would have brought it in."] If
you agree with them as to the tenor of the bill, I will bring
it into the House of Commons, and assist you in getting it
carried." If, I say, he had done this, the bill would never
have passed in its present shape. But Mr. Roebuck took
the Water Company's side, and left the town to fight for
themselves, never assisting us an atom in the matter.
Mr. ROEBUCK—I have nothing more to say to you.
(Cheers and laughter, and cries of "Oh, Michael," &c.)
Mr. BEAL—I ask, why did you make these promises and
then go away and look at the matter afterwards ?
Mr. ROEBUCK—I beg your pardon. If I never looked at
the matter afterwards I could not have passed the bill. I
want to know how you get over that.
Mr. AITCHISON, veterinary surgeon, came forward, amid
much hooting and clamour, and called upon the meeting
not to be hoodwinked by equivocation. He said if equivo-
cation were truth and sophistry were logical arguments we
had had plenty of them. (Hooting.) I tell Mr. Roebuck
I am ready to meet him on the question of acknowledging
the South. I ask him, as a statesman, what good it could
have dono to the South, or what benefit it could have
brought to this country ? I tell him, before he answers
me—(The speaker was stopped by a burst of laughter and
jeers.) He also asked whether the mere acknowledgment
of the South would have been any benefit to them or to us ?
Mr. ROEBUCK—He has accused me of equivocation,
that is a very hard word, but neverthleess I will pass it by.
The reason I advocated the acknowledgment of the South
was this—l believed that if England and Fiance unitedly
had acknowledged the South, the North would have ceased
to attack the South. I was quite certain of that. As a
statesman I answer, it is a matter which I have long con-
sidered, in which I had no personal interest, but in which
England had great interest. I will tell you what England's
interest is. (A voice—" Not to acknowledge the slave
power.") We have acknowledged the slave power ever since
the United States were guilty. We have acknowledged it
in every quarter of the globe. ("Jho more the shame.")
It is all very well to say the more the shame, but we have
done it. My reason for desiring the acknowledgment of the
South was this—l wanted the great republic of America
to be split into two. I honestly and openly confess it ; and
if it had been so it would have been better for us. Now,
another thing; where we have sent £2,000,000 or £3,000,000
of property to America during this war, if peace had come
with a separation of the States we should have sent
£30,000,000 or £40,000,000. Merely looking at the matter
in pounds, shillings, and pence view, I say I was wise.
Looking at it in a humane view, I say that the slave now
is a miserable creature because of his emancipation. They
are starving by thousands, and you are obliged to come to
England and beg support for them. (" Slavery for ever !"
and cheers.)
Mr. AiTcHisoic—Mr. Roebuck says he is a statesman,
and lam one he sets down as an ignoramus. (Cheers and
hooting.)
Mr. ROEBUCK—I did not use that word.

Mr. AITCHISON —He says if England and France had
acknowledged the South that would have been the means of
breaking up the Union. From my reading of international
law (" oh, oh !")—and I am as great a defender of the South
as Mr. Roebuck (" oh, oh !" and laughter)—l say from my
reading of international law, a mere acknowledgment would
have been an injury ; it would have done nothing for the
benefit of the South, and would have injured us.
The MAvon here interfered, and said Mr. Aitchison
should confine himself to asking questions. The present
was not the proper time for him to make a speech.
Mr. AITCHISON said the Water Company and the Town
Council, as the representatives of the town, were in open
antagonism on the water question. He accused Mr. Roe-
buck of turning his back on his constituents to back up a
private company, and trying to gull the meeting into be-
lieving that he did that which he conscientiously believed
was right. (General cries of " Question," mingled with
which were a few faint cries of "Go on.") He wished to
know what Mr. Roebuck's motives in the matter were.

Mr. ROEBUCK—What were my motives ?—that I have
stated to you already. I wanted a tribunal to be established
for the settlement of all claims. If such a tribunal had not
been established litigation would be confirmed longer than
the life of any man in Sheffield. With the tribunal the
whole matter is already settled. Again, I wanted the town
to be well supplied with water. I believe now, and I tell
Mr. Aitchison fearlessly, I believe the town will be better
supplied with water by a company than by the Town Coun-
cil. (A Voice—" Twenty-five per cent.")
Mr. AITCHISON—I ask whether Mr. Roebuck ought to
be the best judge of the people's interests, or the people
themselves?

Mr. ROEBUCK—I was not the judge; the House of Com-
mons was the judge ; Parliament was tho judge. The coun-
cil was heard fully before the committee of the House of
Commons, and the committee declared unanimously in
favour of the Water Company. So did the committee of tho
House of Lords, and so did Parliament. I did nothing. I
could do nothing.

Mr. AITCIIISON—I ask Mr. Roebuck whether it is not
high time that the constituency should be represented by
something better than a nenentity,(Laughter and hooting.)
Mr. ROEBUCK—I believe lam pretty much of an entity as
the honourable gentleman evidently thinks himself at the
present moment. (Laughter.) The question will be put to
you directly, and you will decide. I am not afraid of the re-
sult. I have represented Sheffield to the best of my ability.
It has been to me a barren honour. If I lose your confidence
I lose everything that to me, as a Parliamentary man, is of
any concern whatever. (Cheers.)
Mr. AITCIUSON intimated that ho had no more questions
to ask, and withdrew from the front of the platform amid
general hooting.
Mr. W. C. LEND}—Men of Sheffield, Mr. Roebuck ha s
told you he is not afraid of any man. Neither am I.
("You're a non-elector.") (Laughter.) I have one question
to ask about extermination. Mr. Roebuck put it to you that
he had merely laid it down as a principle that there was an
inevitable law by which the brown man must always dis-
appear before the white. So far, so good. Mr. Roebuck did
not tell you what further he said. As I read it in the Lon-
don newspapers, he found fault.with the policy of the Go-
vernment for not having actually and deliberately hastened
and facilitated extermination. (No, no.)
Mr. ROEBUCK—What is your question ?

Mr. W. 0. LENG—I ask whether those remarks were not
made, and whether they did not call forth a most fiery and
indignant reply from the late Mr. Cobden, who asked Mr.
Roebuck if he would have poisoned them with strychnia ?
'Mr. ROEBUCK—What I did say was this. There is an in-
evitable law by which the brown man will disappear ; but
you, the Government, ought to be kind to the brown man.
I said this in so many words. I said, do no injustice to
them. One great injustice you must do—you must take the
land. (Shame.) Shame, say you; you cannot help it. That
is colonisation. You talk about the great colonies of Europe;
the moment the white man goes he takes the land and cul-
tivates it, and introduces into the country the laws and
customs of civilised life. The brown man disappears. In
his disappearance and decline, I said, in all things be just
and kind to the brown man, though you cannot prevent his
extermination. (Cheers.)
Mr. M. BE AL then came to the front of the opposition
side, and said he wished to submit a resolution. (" No,
no," and " Hear Mr. Dunn.")
Mr. DuNN—Will Mr. Beal see my resolution ? (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. BRAT,—I gave notice of my intention to move a re-
solution, and you did not, and I shall persist.
The Mayor introduced Mr. Dunn to the meeting, who
received him with great applause. Mr. Beal refused to give
way, and great disorder ensued, Mr. Dunn and Mr. Beal
standing at their respective places each waiting for the
noise to subside. At last,

The MAYOR said—Gentlemen, it appears that there has
been a mistake. Mr. Dunn has a resolution to propose, and
Mr. Beal says that ho has one which ought to have priority,
and in order to accommodate Mr. Beal he shall move his
first. (Applause.)
Mr. BEAL anticipated the supporters of Mr. Roebuck by
moving the following resolution :
" That in the opinion of this meeting John Arthur Roe-
buck, Esq., M.P., has not faithfully represented this con-
stituency—(hooting and cheers)—and that steps be imme-
diately taken to secure a candidate whose principles shall
be more satisfactory." (Renewed cheers and hisses.)
The motion was seconded by the Rev. J. GUTTRIDGE
(Wesleyan Free Church), who complained of Mr. Roebuck's
views on the American question.
Mr. T. DU NN moved as an amendment a resolution of
confidence in Mr. Roebuck, and that he be re-elected.
Alderman FISHER seconded the amendment, which was
carried by at least ten to one.
Mr. HADFIELD afterwards briefly addressed the meeting
on local topics, and a resolution of confidence in him was
carried unanimously.

The proceedings closed with a vote of thanks to the
Mayor.

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