The Sun.
London, England, 1801-11-04 00:00:00

THE PEACE.

About five o'clock, Lord PELHAM entered the
louse, when various Peers called fur the Order of
the day.

As the Order was about to be read;

Lard GRENVILLE rose, and just brought to
the Noble Secretary of State's recolleaion, what
had passed on a former evening, relative to certain
information being expected with regard to the situ-
4tion in which Portugal is placed by the late Trea-
ties, and hoped he was prepared to afford it, or
Would not objet to the produCtion of the Papers
Then adverted to.

This Proposition gave rise to a' very long, de-
tultory, and, in the opinion of several Peers, irre-
gular conversation. Lords iGkENVILLE, THUR-
row, PELHAM, HOBART, and the CHANCELLOR,
Were the principal Speakers. The conversation
turned principally upon points of Order, and on this
ground, at the same' time the original Proposition
of Lord GRENVILLE Was rather warmly .discussed.
Lend PELHAM, as on a former evenirg, depre-
tate(' all previous discussion, chiefly on -'the ground
LA- irregularity' He referred to.: the situation of
Portugal, • as in a great degree of public 'notoriety,
c.:11 account of the publicity of the Treaties-of Bacla-
Joz and Madrid, and alluded to the obvious impro_
Ptle:v of producing, were it pra&icable to the full
xterlt, the State' 'Papers alluded to-by the Noble
"'ord.

,• ford Gi?ENVILLE, who was several tiines'on his
';u in the course Of. the conversation, • contended
thut the information 'required by hirn,-uraneceS.
airy to enable the. House to come to a right judgment
)1: the Preliminaries submitted to their discussion.
tic thought that it was indecorous to press 'the dis-
cussion, which Ministerial Lords • seemed inclined
1,5) do, without such information being previously
furnished. He wished however rather to put this
Ce't'sideration to the candour of Ministers than to
,e
it avour to obtain it by means,ola Motion,
Lord PELHAM, in • reply, repeated his former
tlukrvation ; after which he went somewhat into
'crail, with respeet to the situation in which Por-
tug:ll had been placed by the late Treaties; and ad-
rilitsed, that a small portion of Territory had been
Ned by that Power to Spain, for the purposes of
4%lmi:elation. As to France, unquestionably
(14 hie al Les atiuns had been made with respett to the
dun Aries ' of their respedive possessions in South
la
•ss-ner ca.
4°rg GRENVILLE observed, that to a certain
extent, his questions had been solved by the Noble
s
e'2retary. He must consider, however, the Trea-
ty of 13adajoz, as not of corhmon notoriety—He, for
t),ne, never saw it. At the same tittle, he understood,
that by one of the Treaties, the River Alveira was
4, made the Boundary of the French part of Guiana :
hills •he thought a very import/ant consideration, as
Y such a cession, the French were put into posses-
rsz)n of a port which completely commanded the en-
trance of the great River Amazons. There still re_
stained some points unresolved, which lie still thought
tt Would be. proper to have` satisfadorily explained •
before the discussion of the Preliminaries was en-
tered upon. As one of those, he put to. the Noble
Zretary, whether by the late Treaties, Portugal
e% at liberty to maintain the same CommercialQuneetions with us as heretofore ? •
1, Lord PELHAM shortly replied, that by the
Isiteliminaries, as now before the House, Portugal
as not bound either way as to Commercial Con-
ions.
Lard GRENVILLE expressed his wish for further
explanation.,
o, on the -point, whether the provisions
',' the Treaty at Madrid, on the 29th of September,
' least as far as respected the river Alveira, as the
Itlntlary of French Guiana, was superseded by our
reliminary Treaty ?
t.. Zgrd-THUR LOW here spoke to Order—He cen-
4red the 'conversation Wesieli had detained the
11:)use, as disorderly. The Order of the. Day was
,t? only subjed then before the House, and which
A 1414 only be euperseded by nicalis of another
9rti GRENVILLE observed, that the Noble
i,,,,
',``,'
Learned Lord's objedion was easily obviated
)g,, proposing a Motion. However, the Order of
1,4; "ay was not then before the House : it had
:1)1 t been regularly moved. His Lordship then
.11,1°;,ds " That an Address be presented to His
tio4Jesty, praying • that there be laid before the
1,, use .t Cope of the Treaty between the Court of
sfugal,,pt and the French Republic on the 29th of
1.,51.,i last ;" and he would put it to any Noble
its ow, whether the House could, consistently with
l' • n credit, proceed to the discussion of the Pre,
qliin- . 1
te 4les without the information which might be
-Pea • irons
z eci the 'Treaty in question.
llr "4 I/OBART deprecated at least the irregu-
Cit.)? of the discussion; which he observed could
but 1
Lot.
_Poe escaped the known accuracy of the Noble
ji u who trade the Motion.-.-The subjed then re-
-1):rlY before the House was the Preliminaries of a
the ce agreed upon between Great Britain and France,
llowdsalso with regard to the territories of those
istre erg and their. Allies"; but without the least re_
traftnse to: the. Commercial Situations of the Con-
teritlng Parties. • I-le begged the Noble Lord to
In
ict how he hiniSslf should ad did he then stand
.• .. it 'he. sit n [i 'f ioli.(,f HisMajesty's'present Ministers.
1-I,etheznLkOrc D. NCE-1. LO R then Observed—
.. la: Noble and Learned Friend for har-

ing in die& put him in mind of his duty. His
Lordship seemed to advert to an evident disorder
in the present line of proceeding of certain Noble
Lords. With respect to the Motion made by the
Noble Lord, he censured it in decided terms, ob-
serving, at the same time, that no man in the
House, who had an adequate knowledge and expe-
rience of his duty, could countenance a Motion for
the produetion of the Papers adverted to by the
Noble Lord a few.days ago. He thought that in
the experience of their Lordships an instance could
not 'be shewn in which the produdion of such Papers
was agreed to. At the same time, he deprecated the
affectation of candour, which, in passing by the regu_
lar course of a Motion, put it to the feelings of any
Noble Lord to obtain the desired. information. With
respeet to what might pass elsewhere, he would not
comment ; but were such a Motion made in that
House, he, as an individual Peer, even if no other
Lord should support him, would oppose such a Mo-
tion. The question was at any time of the greatest
delicacy *and importance, and more particularly at
the present moment, when the questionfpfPeace, at
least on a permanent foundation, was at issue. He'
thought the country highly obliged to. that Noble
Lord for his condutt during the War, and he would
always recollect, with pride and •satisfaetion, the
support he had given him at those periods, but to no
consideration whatever, would he suffer his duty
to bend. His Lordship concluded with some strong
observations as to the ill tendency of such a Motion,
land deprecated the delay which was then created
with. resped to the regular business of the House.
Lord GRENVILLE observed, that his Noble and
Learned Friend might easily do away that by put-
ting. the Motion he had proposed.
Lord TllURLOWinsisted that, as the House was
then citaimstanced, the putting such a Motion as
proposed-by the Noble Lord, was irregular.
. This produced a long and desultory conversation,
and chiefly of an explanatory nature respeding the
point of Order, which our restricted limits do not
permit us to recite. The contest was principally
between Lords 'lnuit LOW, GPLENVIGLE, and 'the
LORD CHANCELLOR.
Lord GRENVILLE, in the course of the above
observed, that. even admitting, that the. Motion
for the Order of the Day should precede others,
it was a regular thing•by the way of amending the
Motion for the Order.

In the course of this dispute,.
The Earl of DARNLEY took occasion to make
a few observations. He seemed to deprecate the
present discussion as premature and irregular.—He
would put it to the Noble Lord who opposed the
Order, how he should at himself upon such an oc-
casion—and even in the recolleCtion of his pradi4 ;
and he could nor refrain from observing, that the
Noble Secretary had, in his' opinion, answered the
questions of the Noble Lord much more fairly than
he had ever known him to do on similar occasions.

The Duke of NORFOLK shortly.sugg-ested the
propriety of postponing the Motion for the Order of
the Day.
_ _ _

Lord GRENVILLE expressed his readiness to
propose his Motion according to whatever forin the
sense of the House should deem most eligible.
Earl SPENCER supported what had fallen from
his Noble Friend Lord GR ENV IL LE.

The Earls of CARNAR VOW and RAD .OR, and the
Duke of BEDFOIib, said each a few words.
The LORD CHANCELLOR decided, that the
Motion for the Order of the Day should precede
all others.

After some further explanations on the part of
the above Peers, the Loan CIiANCFLLOR yet the
question, " That the Order of the Day pe now
read ;" which being carried in the affirmative, ope-
rated as a negative, on the Motion proposed by Lord
GRENV !LLE.
The Preliminaries of Peace were then read at

length by the Clerk.
The Earl of ROMNEY then rose, and in a speech
of some length, in which he displayed much ability
and information, delivered his sentiments on the
%-ery important subject before the House. He ob-
served, that the very extensive and protraded War
in which the Country had lately been engaged, was,
in his opinion, said!), a defensive War, and there-
fore just and necessary.lt was forced upon us,
and we were constrained to defend -ourselves against
the efreeis of t1,103c principlcb, which, at the time of
-its commencement, and during a long' period of its
continuance, were gaining ground in every part of
Europe. Circumstances, however in this respel,
had since happily changed, and it was with pleasure,
he observed, that the present Government of France
was, judging from its anions, as inimical to those de-
strudive principles as we wereourselves. It was idle
to contend that this Country was not, during the late
Contest, under the necessity of submitting to heavy
burthens ; •but, on the other hand, he had to con-
gratulate the Country on the success of its exertions.
It may be said, that the power of France was now
greater than before the War—He would acknow-
ledge it ; but this, he must observe, was not at the
expellee of Britain. The late War was as success-
ful as any recorded in our history, not even except-
ing- that conduded by the late Lord CHATHAM. In
the last year of the late War—he put it to Noble
Lords, if our successes did not exceed • their most
sanguine expedations he alluded particularly
to Egypt and also entered into a detailed
view of certain operations of the late. War, to•
evince, that wherever the British were equally
matched to the French, they were uniformly vic-
torious. The conduct of Ministers in holding forth
the Olive Branch in the moment of success, was an
equaPy- wise, and just line of policy—they did well
to :Consider the,burthens which the continuance of
the War • must • impost on the great body of the
People and he praised the patience with which

they had borne the. various heavy Imposts, during the
War, particularly the Country Gentlemen, whose pa-
tience and patriotism in these respeds, he said, were
beyond commendation. At the same time, he was
far from admitting, that the National Resources
were seriously diminished, on the contrary, those
joined to 'the brilliant Successes of our ,tams,.
would have enabled us, if necessary, to have con.
tinued the contest. In proof •of this, his Lord-
ship adverted to the great and increasing Commer-.
cial Prosperity of the Country, and her unshaken
financial credit. The_ question then fairly 'before.
their Lordships, was, whether under the presont
circumstances, they would wish to carry on the
War, or accept of such Preliminaries 9f Peace as
they had heard read ? For his parr, he had no doubt
of their being truly advantageous and honourable,
and considering the uncertainty of War, and the in_
creasing burthens of the Country, Minissess ailed
wisely, and were entitled to the. Thanks of the'
HOuse for having procured such Terms of Peace.--;
His Lordship entered into a detailed"and compara-
tive view of the objets and progress of former wars,
particularly the two preceding wars, and inferred,
that the present Treaty of Peace wag-, in every re-
sped, as favourable to England as those Treaties
which had terminated either of the wars all,ided
to. The principal objects for which the late. War
was undertaken, he contendeil, were atchieved,
namely, the preservation of our. Religion, Laws,
and Constitution. He then adverted to some of the .
specific articles of the Preliminaries, and comment..
ed upon the'great national advantages in the acqui-
sition of the islands of Ceylon anclTrinidad. Those
which we gave up could he retained only at an im-
mense expense, and would afford no additional pro.
tedion to our commerce. He adverted to some -
parts of the condud of France; which sheaved its
sincerity with iesped to the Peace, int' instanced
its moderation in not claiming any part of our vast
acquisitions in India from the usurper Tippoo. To
expatiate in detail 'Upon these advantages would fall
to the Jot of those who were better able to do jus.
'dee. to the subject ; with respect to hlMself, he,
• saw the great advantages likely to accrue 'to the
Country from-the present
/Treaty of Peace ; as such
he could congratulate their Lordship . and the
Country ie and, without taking bp' more pf.'!heir
time,. would move,an Address to His Kijes4,:on
the oceasion of his graCious communication, of the
Preliminaries Peace ;';'and ex4resslvetheir
Lordships' fUll approbatiOn thercof, AO o-ripeir
• • • )": •
high sense of His Majestys justicettn, tno eraclop,
Sze. -

Having moved an Address`_ to this 'efrale ;
reazl'in. the usual way, by theeLoi6 JAZ,z,4o
-3 '
when: "
Lord- Fiscomt LIMERICK: rom -to support the
Address, and to deliver hTesekentiments l upon the
very important .suhjeet before the House. He ob- .
served it augured strongly in fa %Tarr of'the Treaty
of Peace, that_all ranks and .descriptions of men in •
the Kingdom, generally speaking; united in appro_
ving the measure, and were foud in their expressions
of joy. He was sorry at the same time to be aware, •
that some of the highest eharaelers, of the greatest
knowledge and most unimpeached integrity, differed
widely from him in their opinions on this. great
measure. In his estimation, the Preliminaries were
most opporttinely concluded ; their tenor was ad_
vanteeeous, and the whole proceeding highly ho, ,
nourahle to the National CharaCter. Let 'their
Lordships lock to the fate of surroundine- Nations,
and compare the way in which they had concluded
Peace with the recent common Enemy, with the mode
in which Great Britain had agreed to terms of Peace,
and the result woeld obviously he in favour of this
Country. Its charafter was undiminished, and not
one inch of her Antient Territories or Possessions
were taken from, her; on the contrary, our Laws,
Religion, and Constitution were preserved pure anti
inviolate. Let the present- situation of this Country
be compared even with that in which she stood at
the last Peace, enti the comparison, he averred,
would decidedly be in favour of her present cir-
eumstances.------On the former 'occasion, cur finest
Colonies were rent from the bosom of the Parent
'State. Island after Islarel, and I,'artress after For-
tress, were- shamefully ceded to the Enemy ; that
Peace was deservedly reprobated by all.—The Mi-
nistry of that day were prevented froni perfeaing
what they had well begino being driven from their
-seats by an unexpected and unnatural. Coalition—
He hoped nothing of that sort, no paltry Coalition
would take place in the present day. Recurring to
the regular subjea, his Lordship repeated, let the
situation of the Country now be considered, and the
contrast marked—see the conduft of Britain and her ,
successful interference with respett to her Allies,.
Turkey and Portugal—He believed in regard to
those, all that could, had been done ; •with respect
to our late Ally, the Prince of Orange, for the in-
terests -of whose Country and House the War was
partly undertaken, his present situation could not-
fairly be imputed to Britain, the fault lay elsewhere.
In touching VI this part of his subject, his Lordship
entered into some details respecting the affairs of
Holland, and the Restoration of the Stadtholder in
1787, as well as respefting certain operations in
the early part of the present War in Belgium and. '
Holland—the joss of the latter could not beire-.
pored' to us. Other causes,. the fault of which lay
in other quarters, joined. to the great
,severity of
'the season, occasioned that misforttme. On no former
.occasion did the skill and bravery of our' Naval and
Military OfiicerseandMen shine forth with greater, •
brilliancy. He wouldiostance the cases of .Egypt
and Aboukir--on the Coast of Africa , these, •
legions heretofore. deemed, invincible,
,who had
over-run Italy—crossed her mountains and rivers
with facility, sacked her fortresses and: depo-
pulated her plains, were beaten, and actually;

yielded to half the number of flu; ish s. 7nd
hid their diminished heads behind the walls of
Alexandria. We had, however, to regret the loss
of that real Hero who led on tilose Troops to Vic-
tory and immortal Honour----His Spirit howevcr
did not die ; it fell upon those gallant Officers who
succeeded in command, and whose conduft best
spoke their eulogium; and some of those Officers
were of that part of the-United Kingdom to which
he had the honour to belong. Having mentioned that
Country, his Lordship observed he had a. few
ous observations to address to, the House upon that
important part of the subjed. That that part of
the empire produced men of as good hearts and as
sound heads as any other part of the world, it was
unnecessary for him to say ; but a great part of the
inferior orders of its inhabitants were so cireum-
_ stanced as to require the greatest circumspekaion on
the part of the Government. When the gibbet Is: d
ceased to be-burthened, and the sword was sheath_
. ed, there were many who imagined it proceeded
froM fear, and when England was left alone in the late
arduous contest, their hopes obViously revived. In
what a situation England would be left, if the projeds
of the Traitors in that country had succeeded, he
shuddered,to contemplate even in imagination. She
-,vnuld not then be fighting for this or that island,
but for her very existence as an independent nation.
And though he had no doubt of her being ultimately
successful, yet what sacrifices such a contest must
demand, their Lordships would best feel. After
dwelling somewhat in detail on this part of his
subjed, his Lordship expressed his hope, that a
strong Peace Establishment would be kept up, as
such he thought absolutely necessary ; and he hoped
no narrow or short-sighted policy would counteraet
such a wise precaution. The War he always held
to be necessary, and of course just ; and the late
Ministers deserved the gratitude and applause of the
Country, for their conduft v-ith resin& to it. The
present Ministers likewise deserved the greatest
applause. They were vested with the reins of Go-
vernmeut at a period of great difficulty, and_ their
conduft since .evinced their patriotism and abi-
lity' ; particularly in their condu,,fl in procuring
for. the nation such advantageous Preliminaries of
Peate.

Earl SPENCER expressed his regret in finding
himself, from considerations of duty, obliged to
take a different part with respe& to the Question
bef6re the House, from the Noble Lords whom he
so highly respeaed ; and so far to oppose the govern-
ment of Ministers for whom he had so great an
.esteem. On the grounds of the consistency of his own
charaaers and with reference to the priseiples
ons which 'he had not long sijfce held -a high :Ind
ccient ,Q4ce under tiis Majc:;ty's Guvernnvnit,
.not only on these grounds, hut even as an irides
Pendent Peer, and even as a Subjea of the King,
he felt himself' bound to adopt his present line of
condud. He wished, however, he could join tithse
'Lords in .deemiog the Peace secure and adequate
such an end a just and necessary War should always
have ; but where were they to look for such a ter..
mination among the Preliminary Articles before the
House ? So far from it, that as far as England was
concerned, every thing we had conquered had been
given up—every means of proteifting our Foreign
Possessions and Commerce were sacrificed. The Ces-
sions, if not made direaly to Frances were made to
Countries under the controul of that Power. In what
view could the Pease be called honourable ? or under
what circumstances were the Integrity of the Do..
minions.of our Allies stipulated for ? Turkey was
already evacuated by the successes of our Armie&—
It had been the determination of France to have
evacuated Rome and Naples before the Treaty was
made ; and, with respea to Portugal, further . in_
formation was obviously necessary. With respect
to the interests of the House of Orange, no mention
whatever was made of diet; in the Preliminary
Treaty. The general tenor of the Articles mills
tated against the great principles of Security and.
Indemnity, for which the War was undertaken.--s
He noticed the case of the Cape of Good Hope,
and the restorations made to France in the
East. Indies, which would lay the foundation
of their future power and command in that Coun-
try ; ,and, by the Treaty with Portugal, their
power with respea to the Brazils, was tot) obvious
to be contended for. The Noble Earl proceeded to
review various other important arrangements in the
Preliminaries, respeEting which, he pronounced the
same opinion. Drawing towards a conclusion, he
observed; " If ever Peace was precarious, this I
" contend `will be so-ss-if ever Peace was dangerous,
" this will be so in the highest degree I"
. The DUKE of CLARENCE delivered his senti.
silents at- some length, and with considerable abi-
lity.-s-A great part of His Royal Highness's
speech was accompanied with detailing certain ope--
rations, 'not only of the late, but of the American
War, and that of 1756; his objeft in this review,
seemed to be, to shew the superior brilliancy
of • the British atchievements in the Naval and
Military lines in general, and that in the late
War, they equalled, if not exceeded, those at
any former period. He particularly dwelt on
the various Campaigns in Flanders and Hol.
land, in the present War, events, the ultimate
ill .successes of which were not attributable to
this Country. He pointed out, with much effea,
the heroic exploits of General LAKE, at Lincelless
In Egypt, and in India too,- his Royal Highness
pointed out She superior lustre .of the British at..
ehicvernents, and spoke with much warmth and
feeling of the exertions and exploits of the gallant
and lamented AB E RCROMBY, and the Hero of the
Nile. He then took a view of the Preliminaries,
and contended for the great advantage's held out to
the Country. He minutely described the great
Cornmerdial and Military advantages of the Islands

ti

.even and Trinidada. In fine, his Royal'High-
po.s detThired his opinion, that the present Peace
bid as fair for permanency as any Other in the His-
tory of the Country ; the more especially when he
contemplated the Articles in the Russian Treaty,
which gave him the fullest proof of the sincerity of
France, , andsatisfadion, as it evinced the great and
preponderating power of England; whose condud
was such.as. to shew to France the necessity for her
desi&ting in.. any..shape to interfere or meddle in
her internal concerns ; it was with the greatest plea-
sure, therefore he supported the Motion.
Lord YfItSTMEATti stews in favour of the Peace.
Loid TELHAII4, In an,able and argumentative
rpeeth of some length, which our limits prechideus
from detailing,' deii nded the Preliminaries of Peace,'
and confuted the various objedions which had been
urged by a Noble Earl and a Noble Lord, parti-
cularly against them ; in czaiclUding he apologized.
'for detain:no- the House,. and said, he felt the mote
• justified, as 'the great and salutary measure in ques-
tionwoulcl be defended by those who possessed
more information on the siihjed than,himself, and
possessed more eloquence and ability to deliver their
sentiments with the desired efftd.
• Lsrd r;RENVILLE said, he should be' happy
to concur with their Lordships in congratulating
His Majesty cro an hon6urable termivation of the
contest in which we had been engaged, but he
was sorry to :-ay, that in his•best judgment, there
seemed no cause for so doing. So far from the ob-
jeds of the War having been attained, he asserted,
that not one of the legitimate .objefts for which we
had entered into it, had been eg-etted :—the chief of
tli9Se were Security and Safety btft the fart was,
that we were now certainly, in a more perilous and
dangerous situation, than at the moment when the
Negotiation began. Theobjed of the Noble Lords
Who supported the present Address, was, to carry
up to the Throne an Address, in which the Nego-
tiation was treated as advantageous to this Country,
arid as honourable to the national character. So
far froth thinking it so, his Latdship considered it
as the utmost step of degradation and humiliation.
It had the begbinilz of •the.,:present Treaty been
declared, that it was to be viewed only as a question
of terms, and as such, therefore, it was to be investi-
gated, and its merits to be etsiniated by an examin_
lion of those terms. In. all discussions on the subjed
of Peace there were two points to be attempted, the
first-was, to treat on the terms of the-statio quo ante
-helium,- and if that should be found impradicable,
then to attempt a Negotiation upon the principle of
.the uti possidetis. One or the other of these should
be made the basis, And which-ever should be laid
down, any departure from it should he matter of
serious and careful attention. If our situation did
not- warrant our proposing the status quo, and if no
'parchment could restore affairs to that situation, if
such was oUr 'inferiority that we could nor propose
'it, then indeed the other alternative ought to be
• taken into consideration. He was happy, however,
to hear from all Noble Lords who supported the
,Address, that this was not the case. This admis-
sion relieved him from a detail, by which he meant
to shew that at no period, and particularly not when
the-Treaty was signed, were we inferior to the
Eilerny Our situation was indeed . that of success,
and it was urged that this was the most destrabic date
to treat, which indeed it was, because it was then
' that the bei;t terms could properly be insisted on. It
was with tegard to this circumstance that he should
take a view of the relative state of the twoCou'ntriese
France had acquired great and extensive acquisitions,
which, he admitted, had been rather under than
over-rated. Besides the Netherlands, the Nati,
nate, and the territory on the Rhine, she had, as
dependencies, the Batavian,.lielvetic, and Ligurian
Republics ; so that she, was n>at only powerfbl by
'extent of territory, but was proteded by a chain of
Dependencies. In opposition to thiS, we• had ac.
quisitions hardly less brilliant in our Navy and our
ColOnies—we had Egypt, Malta, and Minorca.
The Mediterranean was shut up to France and
Spain. We had in the Eas't every thing but Bata-
via, which, froth its unhealthy climate, we thought
rot worth possessing at the price which its morta.
lity would cost. In the West Indies, we have
every thing except St. Domingo--Trinidad was in
our possession. On the Continent Of South Amt.,.
rica, we had an Empire of great value, Surinam,
Demerara, Essequibo, and Berbice. let this state,
by adding to our Colonies. the :Empire.of the Sea,
we had made our Colonies permanently our. own.
(t had 'been said that the aim of the pre_
• sent War was not colonial acquisition, yet the
attention of Administration had been wisely di-
xe6led to that objei.l, because theie clever could ,
be a War . in 'which" it was not proper
ple the exertions of the French Navy. What was
the use of them,? They could be held for, the pur-
pose of indemnifying our Allies, and placing them
in their former state of independence ; -or, if that
could-not be done, they miAllt be held as a counter-
balance to the stiengtn of France. The Noble Se-
cretary had rested his defence on the argumentun ad
hominem, Which on such a subjeft his Lordship de_
precated as improper. If his Lordship's conduft in
the Negotiation at Lisle wanted defence, he left it ,
to hiS Colleagues. At that period nothing compa-
ratively was ceded; bur after placing ourselves in,
a better situation, it was surely hardly proper to say
that we should take no advantage. of our improved
situation. The Negotiation at Lisle was under-
' taken when the spirit of the Country was more de-
ptessedithan at any period before or since.; and if
he were asked ,why that moment was chosen, he
would have answered, that the War could not have
been: carried on, unless the Public had beertiatisfied
that no Peace was to be obtained, , but that whieh,
went to the destruction of this Country-. The de-
pression was produced by the -stoppage of the
Bank, by the defection of our Allies, and, by
what he wished to forget, the Naval Mutiny. If
Peace had been then concluded,. we might have been
justified.—lt was contended, that by the present
Treaty much was obtained, as beside Ceylon and
Trinidada, we had obtained security for. our Allies.
His Lordship contended, that in the Negotiation at
• Lisle we had stipulated every thing for our Allies,
and had been willing to concede on our . own part.
.In the present Treaty we 1107 made no provision
for the,YR.INCE of QRANG.E,.fot whom,, in the Pro-.
• jet at Lisie, there had been an-express stipulation..
It was the more becoming on the part of this Conn.

try to have made such -a stipulation, because 'the-
Colonies which had been restored to Holland had
been obtained by means' of him. The Noble Lord
then took a view of what had been done for Portu.
gal, whieli,he considered as too little, arid as don.
gerous to Our interests, by offending the French a
Naval Station in the River of Amazons,--4n the
East, his Lordship considered the accession of the
Mysore Territory as not to be under-rated, but as
forming no part of the merit. of the. present Peace.
He deprecated the cession_ of Cochin, for which the
Projet at Lisle stipulated so expressly, .and on the
importance of which to the safety of India, him
Lordship particularly insisted. With respeEt to the.
Cape, he considered the cession of it particularly:
unfortunate, schen we' had lOst, as we should
find we had done on the event of a new War,:
Portugal as a place of refreshment for our Troops
on their voyage to Inein;. In
.the West 'lndies'
he regretted that Trinidada: had been preferred to
Martinique. In the Mediterranean, all that we had
taken we had ceded, and the Porte had been . corn
pelted to exclude us from enjoying any particular
commercial' advantages, after the greatest service
that had ever been rendered by one Country to an-
other. His Lordship particularly inveighed against
the Preliminaries as unsatisfactory, and
.as leavinv
too much to be settled by a Definitive Treaty. He,
considered Preliminaries, where so much was letti
to be discussed, as little better than a Naval Arniis-
tke. On the subject of the Newfoundland Fishery,'
the words of the Treaty were different froni Those
generally employed, and therefore dangerous. His
Lordship, at great length, went into the danger to
which the Country would, in it's internal situation
be exposed, and concluded by hoping that the Peace
Establishment would be such as' to averodanger.'
The LORD CHANCELLOR, in an admirable
Speech, which the lateness of the hour at which -it
was.delivered;prevents us from doing justice to, en-
tered at great length into a refutation of Lord Gren-
ville's objedions. He. was aware, he said, of the
difficulties of the situation which, great as the
Noble LOrd had .stavd them, were yet greater ;
inasmuch as the-Northern Confedeiacy, formed for
the destrudion of :this Country, 'was then at its
height. Great Britain was then in arms against
the whole world. In such a situation, some idea
might be formed of the difficulty of all Negotiation.-
It had beekdetertnined repeatedly in .Parliament,
that the origin 'of the War, was the desire' of this
Country to preserve itself from' doctrines destruc-
tive of, all Government. There might be others,
but this was the parliamentary character of it. He
was sensible that such was.the situation of Europe,
that let any Peace whatever be concluded, there
might be a difference on the subjed , in the most
respectable minds. He was to make such; a _one
as his own conscience told - him was right.—
He would not make any dishonourble concessions,
but all he hoped was a Peace which would produce
security. Though not inclined to adol'A the argu,
mentitav ad hamiveitt, yen when it was ad talent
hominiin, he might be excused. He maintained that
he was entitled to consider the Peace as hontiurable,
because among the Papers on their Lordships' Table,
was an Address4n the Projet at Lisle, representing
the -Peace which it proposed as likely to be lasting
to she Country and honourable to the Crown. Look,
ing to this Peace, he saw no reasonable objeaion
advanced :to it, except by those who considered
all Peace as impossible. The Noble Lord had
said that the Negotiation at Lisle was undertaken
when The Nation was under great depression ; he
must, howeVer, have meant, either, that the terms
should, or should not have been accepted ; the lot_
ter he certainly could not say he meant, and, if the
former, then France would, 'by the acceptance of
them, have obtained tern neither honourable :to
the King nor safe' to the People: In this Negotia--
tion he had been guided by his own judgment,
aided by the former Address of the House on
the subjea. He thought the Noble Lord would
not have been justified in refusing the terms now
concluded, had they been offered in 1791. With
tespea to 'Cochin, •We had now the Mysore,
and surely had Cochin been struck out of the
Projet and the Mysore-inserted, the Noble Secre-
tary at the' time would have been well pleased with
the change. Of the Cape of Good Hope he. would
say, that he would gladly have kept it, if not fed
from this Country, and maintained at an expence
to which no advantages are commensurate. If there
were no other object but this to. contend for, he did
not think it worth the expenditure which bad taken
.place since 1797,' of tzs millions of money, and an
expence of 3o millions to be incurred. next year. His
Lordship contended that the acquisitions we had made
since 1797 ought not to have,increased our deMands,
sinceif his Lordship did not in his Projet require' any
of those acquisitions, it was obvious that they were
not essential to the great objeet of the War, Secu-
rity. In that view, a Colony restored was the
same.as a Colony never had. His Lordship applied
this principle with great' force to the arguments
which had' been adduced by Lord GREJOrILL'E
against the Cessions in the East and West Indies,
and in the Mediterranean, and concluded with ob-
serving, that the present Government of France was
not founded upon the dangerous principles on which
some of the preceding were organized, but depre-
cated, at the same time, the idea that Government
would be deficient in vigour or in caution.
The Earl of MOIRA rose to give his perfect as-
sent to the Address ; but while he did so, and gave
full credit to the present Administration, he could
not but , feel the difficulties entailed upon them by
their predecessors. The exertions of our Fleets
and Armies had been glorious,' but their successes
had been lost to the Country by the mistaken di-
redion of their efforts. A Noble Lord bad adverted
to the tumultuous expressions of joy shown upon
the news of the Preliminaries being signed—he
could not condemn that mode of the People testi-
fying their
.joy at such' an. event, and 'if there were
a few who indulged profligate speculations founded
on the Peace, yet' he could not but consider it as
the heart-felt testimony of honest feeling; and he was
'willing to hope that the excess which was exhibited
upon the arrival of the French Ambassador with
the ratification of the Preliminaries, was the effed of
that magnanimity which can admire heroism even
loan*Enemy, a feeling which he would ever wish
.to'encourrige in the Minds of Englisluxieni

The Earl of WARWICK, as far as 'we could
eollea, was against the Addtess.
Lord MULGRA VE took a View of our Successes
in the War, and gave his decided sttri)ort to the
Address.
The Duke of BEDFORD, after some 'anima&
versions on the condua of the fdrmer Ministry,
gave his applause to the present, for having pro-
Cured Peace to The CoOrly; in Whieh-efent he-te--
joiced, and on-which,occasion.he'perfealy concurred
in the Address, /o the Throne.
The. Earl of WESTAlgagin, in a long and
des!dtbry 'Speech, took a view Of the condua of
• the
.W4r, and expre'ssed his.opininn that.if every
Man in the Country- had ',exerted hithself to the ,
.10.r.1,Dt, we -might have 'Obtained better Terms of:
P.!-:lce. He concurred in the Motion for the Address.
The Risholof ROCHESTER said, that it might
seem to respire' some apology for him'as:a
of the Gospel of,Chridrising to oppose Peace, but
he felt a'Auty to his Country whiCh he considered as'
paramount to all other considerations, and which
pi-bmPted, him tO'speak his opinion clearly and ex-
plicitly. upon the present momentous occasion. 'He
could *Ma- but consider the Treify of PeaCe, which
-left France in posieSsion of stich extended territory
'on the:Continent,' as dangermis to this Country,
and as delusive in itself. He therefore could not
'concur in the ,Address•tthiedfor;

.The BiShop of LONDON ,rose to''speak only one
word:—He was the decided 'friend.of
,Peace. The
people of this Country had• seen nine years of War
and two of famine, and he could not buit rejoice that
'they were relie'ved front both, '
Earl FITZWILLIAM, who'had 'frequently risen
in the course of the. evening, said, 'he would not
have obtruded himself upon their Lordships at so
late an hour, but he; felt it inconsistent' with his
feelings and. former cOnduic.l to gibe a silent vote
upon the present oegasion. He had ever deprecated '
a Peace with.,Republican .France; and he could not
but do so now as much as he ever had done.
The Earl of ST. lIINCENT declared he should,
to the latest hour Of his life, recollea with pleasure
the part he had taken in bringing about the Peace,
which he most sincerely believed was advantageous
to the Country, and honourable to our Allies.
Lord Viscount NELSON expressed his opinion,
that the Cape of Good Hope was by no means worth
risking any thing to. retain ; that it was of the
greatest importance to wrest Malta from France,
but of little value to England as an acquisition, as
our Fleets could not at' that station watch the port
of Toulon. - The Peace he thought a good one, and
that' the Canary owed much to I-Its MAjtSTY, fOr
his paternal' care and-goodneSS in bringing it abo.:it.
The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM spoke at some
tenth against` the Preliininaries, as generally inse-
cure, dishonourable, and disadvantageous in every
point of view to the Country. ' •- •
The. Earl of 'CA RN A R VON followed at some
length on the same side. ' •
Lord ST, VIIVC ENTspoke shortly -in -explana-
tion: • .
Lord HOB ART spoke at some letigth, and with
great ability, 'in defense of the Preliminaries; grin.
cipally in answer to what had fallen from Lord
GRENVILLE. With, respect to the PRINCE 'of
ORANCE, '
,Minters he said, had not been-negleel.-
till of his interests ; the fa&was, that a Treaty .had
been 'in forwardness in Berlin, and it was judged
better for the interests of that Prince •to-abstain in
the present instance: indeed such was the Prince's
own opinion,• and it was so arranged that the affair
might be taken up: again at. the. diseussion• of the
Definitive Treaty. ••
The Question was, now loudly:calk& for, ;and
their Lordships divided.
For the Address,

Proxies

94
20

-1 I 4.
Against it 1 o

Majority

104

.
Lord PE LFIAM moved ,thap the Copyention with
Russia ,be taken into consideration on. Tuesday
next, and the Lords summoned, thereupon, ,which
was erAereci accordingly. , - • •
At Five o'Clock in the Morning the. House ad-
journed till Friday. ' •

HOUSE OF COMMONS. -

TUESDAY, NOV. 3.

CERTAIN Accounts were presented from the Commis-
sioners oft he Customs in Scotland, which Wereordered to lie
bn-the Table. • '
A new Writ'was ordered for Nottinghamshire, inthe room
of the Hon. EVELYN PIERREPOINT, deceased.
The House in a Committee to consider of the Duties on
Salt, came •to a ReSolution, that it is expedient to revive
and continue an Ad of the 41st Gt 0. 111. for allowing the
use of Salt, Duty free, for the Curing of Herrings and other
Fish—Report to-morrow.
The House also in a Committee to consider of certain
Duties on Starch and Spirits, came to a resolution that it is
expedient to continue an Ad of the 41st GEO. 111, for re-:
ducing the duties on Starch, •and on Spirits made from
Molasses or Sugar.----Report to-morrow,
Mr. Bit A dos brought up the report of the Committee of.
Supply, which was read and agreed to, and the said.Com-
mince was appointed for to-morrow to take into considers.
tioa the Supply to be granted to His,Majesty.
The. CnAxext.coit of the Exenr.oiAlt 'moved kir an
Estimate of the Charges of the Ordinary and' Extraordinary of
the Navy for three lunar months commencing from the
ist of Jana iSoa—of the Transport Setvice,, and of Prisoners
of War—of the Sick PrisOnets of War—of the Army, Garri-
sons, and other Land Forces; and of Miscellaneous Services
for the same period ; and that an Address should be presented
to His Majesty, praying he would be graciously pleased to
lay the same before the House.—Orderect •
RUSSIAN CONVENTION. •

• Lord HAWKESBURY moved, that the Order
of the Day for the Consideration of the Conveh-
tion with Russia on Friday should be discharged,
and that the same should be taken into considera-
tion on Tuesday next.—Ordered: