The Sun.
London, England, 1862-02-14 00:00:00

rnE SUN; LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 14, 1862.

prising 179 parishes, possessed 10 such schools, and in
Cornwall, with 71 parishes, only one school was connected
with the Privy Council. That was no discredit to a prelimi-
nary system, but it would be a discredit if they could not
make the system meet these great and pressing and wants.
All the districs he had named contributed to the grants, and
it was therefore a matter exceedingly desirable that they
should receive a share of the money which they had paid.
The way in which it had been proposed this should be done
was by introducing a lower kindot teaching. But there was
a great difficulty. The present system of grants was such
that if the teaching was good the grant was ample, but they
Led no real check upon the teachers. It seemed to him the
.only condition under which tney could possibly recommend,
without reckless expenditure, that teachers of an inferior
class should be employed, would be that there should be
some collateral and independent proof that the teacher had
done his duty. That would only be done inindividual exa-
mination of the scholars. Another fault of the Privy Coun-
cil grants was its complexity. This arosa from the Govern-
ment appropriating and paying the grants. The number of
people with whom they had to deal was extraordinary. In
1861 the number of schools under inspection was 9,957 ; the
number of certificated teachers was 8,698, besides a large
number of uneertificated teachers ; the number of pupil
teachers was 16,287; the number of Queen's scholars, 2,527
—making altogether a respectable army of 38,331 persons
To most of these persons they paid money directly. They
paid money to 16,277 pupil teachers, whose salaries varied,
beeinning at £lO and increasing by ,E 2 10s. annually, until
they reached £2O. They also paid 8,698 certificated teachers,
se that the correspondence and payments of the department
were exceedingly large and complicated. It was a depart-
ment of the Government co-opet sting with persons who had
a right to the utmost attention and respect, because they
came forward voluntarily to contribute their aid. They were
not always rxen of business, and their correspondence was
not only very large, but sometimes irrelevant. He remem-
bered an instance where it was desired to apprentice the
wife of a schoolmaster, and after a long correspondence the
application was refused. The party aggrieved afterwards
requested an interview with him (Mr. Lowe!, on which oc-
casion the whole case was re-stated, and although the origi-
nal refusal was referred to, the party went home and again
reopened the whole question. , There was another point
he might mention. They had to take their information as
to the fact from parties no doubt very honourable and re-
spectable, but who were interested in putting the fact in
one point of view. Under such circumstances he thought it
was excessively desirable that some simplification should be
attempted. The present system was eminently destructive
to the responsibility of the house. It was one of immense
complexity, and the department had the power of saddling
this country with very heavy expenses, without the House
of Commons knowing anything about it. A few official
and technical words might be inserted in a minute without
the sul jectbeing properly discussed. It was an indispensable
condition to a permanent system of education that Parlia-
ment should have the fullest control over it, and that could
not be obtained without very great simplification of the pre-
sent machinery. On the other band, there was no doubt
that this system of complexity was intended, and did ope-
rate in the first instance, as a protection to the public. He
thought, therefore, it would be very wrong to do away with
all the present safeguards without providing the public
with some sort of equivalent. No doubt the proper per-
son to be responsible to the Committee of Privy Council
should in each case be the manager of the school. But
even then, how could they secure that the money was
spent for the purpose for which it was given ? The ma-
nagers were a fluctuating and changing body, and the
department might find itself dealing with persons by no
means worthy of confidence. He should not feel justified
in proposing that public money should be paid over to the
managers of the schools without some guarantee that it
would be properly applied. He could, however, suggestno
other remedy than that suggested before, They could not
track the application of the money after it was once paid
over to the managers, but they might satisfy themselves
that it must have been on the whole well applied, by in-
troducing examination as a check. (Bear, hear.) The
commissioners reported that even in the best schools only
one-fourth of the children attained the highest class, and
they also reported that the schools had not yet succeeded
in educating to any considerable extent the bulk of the
children who had passed through them. This was
a strange and startling statement, and he must also
fairly state to the house, the inspectors reported that in 90
schools reading, writing, and arithmetic were taught ex-
cellently and well. The two reports at first sight might
seem to be utterly at variance, but it must not be forgotten
that the commissioners had the report of the inspectors
before them when they came to their conclusion. The two
statements might possibly be reconciled without throwing
any imputation upon the inspectors. The fact was, that the
object of the present system, as Rail Russell had said, was
to set up a type or model of education, and therefore the
quality of the education and the quality of the teacher were
the principal objects regarded in all the established schools.
The inspectors, no doubt, properly reported on the qualifi-
cations of the teachers ; but they had not said that although
reading, writing, and arithmetic were excellently well taught
they were equally well learnt, When, however, they came
to a permanent system, quantity was what they must more
look to. He had come to the conclusion that inspection, as
opposed to examination, was not, and never could be, a suf-
ficient test of the efficiency of a school. It would detect
gross errors, it would give valuable advice and as-
sistance in many ways, and be of great use, but it was not
calculated to test in a crucial manner the efficiency of a
school. According to the minute of the Privy Council,
examination was part of the inspection, but it
bad never been carried out by all the inspectors. The fact
was there was a distinct conflict between the commissioners
and the inspectors, which it was difficult to reconcile except
in the manner he had suggested. Another objection to the
reports of the inspectors was their use of abstract phrases as
to the efficiency of schools. They dealt with the abstract
instead of the concrete. Ihe inspectors gave a general no-
tion as to the schools, but they treated them as something
distinct from the scholars. They failed in giving any pre-
cise information. They examined a few children and made
their report, which was doubtless a very true report as to
quality, but not as to quantity. Their reports were full of
such phrases as " the average proficiency of the children,"
" the general efficiency," " the decided tendency," " the
impression on the whole," "a general review." They spoke
of impalpable essences, such as " the m oral atmosphere,"
and tone of the school, and mental condition, not of the
children, but of the school in the abstract. However
valuable this might be, it was no test of the
inspector's opinion of the efficiency of the teacher, pro-
nounced after a long and careful examination. The real
truth was, the quality of education depended upon the
mind of the niaster—the quantity of education depended
upon the amount of labour given by the master. What
had been obtained was the qintlinc..tions of the master,
what had not been obtained was the amount of his labour.
Inspection had failed to ascertain that point, and if con-
ducted on the same principle it always would fail. He was
now investigating, rs well as he could, if there be an anta-
gonism Letwet n the commissioners and the inspectors,
which was right. He felt confirmed in his views that the
commissioners were right by the tone of the controversy
last ye r. Supposing that 90 per cent. of the children had
been properly educated, one would have supposed that
the language which would have been held by
those interested in schools would have been, ex-
amination was superfluous, for the schools would
bear any teat; but instead of that the language held was,
that examination was ruinous. One gentleman of great
authority had devised this theory, that the first generation
of children in schools inherited a physical incapacity to learn
—that in fact unless their fathers had teen taught to read,
write, and cypher, it would be impossible for them to learn
—that merely mechanical results must follow a moral and
religious training. Had that dictum been known to Dio-
genese he might have saved himself the trouble of light-
ing his lamp in his search after an honest man, for he
would only have had to catch the first man who could
read, write, and cypher, and then he would have got him.
(Laughter.) Tht re was a town in England, the name of
which he would not mention, in which there were two
schools, and each received a grant of £240 a year.
The one was strongly in favour of the revised code, being
satisfied that after all deductions, it would get £350.
The other was as strongly against the revised code, being
satisfied that, a'tet all deductions, it would get only £ll5.
lie quoted these examples to show how little the report of
the inspectors gave a
efficiency really precise or definite notion of the
of the teaching in the schools. The fact was, if
they meant to make the system permanent, they must make
up their minds en what
principle they were
to go.' What
was the object of ins i•
pleasant—to 'give :ham ? Was it simply to make things
putee:tt independent
as much as could be got out of
ho public
they in eat nest? Did of their efficiency ? Were
lstTean that the grants should not
be only subsidies and
This
pas the
labut fruitful of good to the
uttn.,st extent
(laearonlaly question-were they
for t fficier cy or subsidy
be relieved because it was bad,goa "T.) Was a school to
good
dd thereforeoi poor, or be-
cause it was efficient and in
lie
the r sts—he this. Here
thought there could be nothing asisreerlittnhasnt"ces ?
there were two champions in
would say
nothing of his own department, except that he would take
the liberty of observing that the report of -the commis-
sioners made the situation of Lord Granville and himself
absolutely unto noble, for they felt that they could not sit
still in the face of the report without showing the house
and the country that they had dcne all in their power to
remedy this state cf things. They found the commis-
eioner- asserting one thing and the inspectors asserting ens_
then The commissioners said that only ore-fourth of the
children were
prop( rly instructed, while the inspectors con-
tended that sells were ether excellently or fairly
taught. The del al 1 111 a t of education had to judge between
What honest man
the two. What tens it to do ?
should—
not to leave this matter under a cloud of uncertainty. His
department bad said they would RE peal to facts, and not
going rats°, ing a priori, they would go to the schools and
examine the children chind by child, t,-,d then they would
know whether the commissioners on the inssecte ns were
right. (Hear, hear.) If the inspectors were right the de-
partment would have been vindicated, and would have car-
p d a great point ; if they were wrong a great evil would
have been remedied. He had no doubt the commissioners
were right, judging from their authority, and the enormous
amount of confirmation they bad received from the admis-
sion made by all eontroversialists on this question, who de-
.

dared they would not submit to any such crucial test as
examination. They had said, issue a circular to the in-
spectors. But it would be trifling with the house to suppose
it would have the desired effect. He believed they must en-
list the human passions, that they must enlist hope and fear
to do the work for them—that they must hold the prospect
of sufficient remuneration if their children were properly
taught, and of loss if not. He would now proceed to the
question of expense. Ho held that whatever they decided
upon the question of education, they must also decide upon
the question of expense. It was no duty of his to starve any
system which the House of Commons supported, It was
their duty to carry out a proper system of education, and at
the same time although they could not control a large ex-
penditure, that there should be no extravagance. They
should see that the public obtained an equivalent for
their expenditure, and that there was no inequality in
the grants. He had taken a book of 250 schools taking
grants. The children of these schools were supposed
to receive 10s; a-head, that being considered a fair sum
for each child to earn. He had taken the first twelve
cases in which the grants were highest. The first school
was receiving from the public purse, instead of 10s. for
each child, £1 3s. 4d. ; the second, El 7s. 6d. ; and the
others various sums down to 195., being nearly double the
amount the commissioners thought each child ought to be
paid, He took another book : the first case gave £1 Bs.
11d. ; the next, £1 7s. sd. ; and so on, down to the lowest,
18s. 91 It seemed to him that that was a very serious
question. When they were told that any change in the
grant must diminish the assistance given to the schools,
they were never told what the actual amount of that assist-
ance was. The fact was a great many schools were receiv-
ing under the system a great deal more than they were
entit ed to, and no system was entitled to support which
did not make provision for remedying that inequality.
There were three sources of expenditure which went to
make up the income of a school. The first was the sub-
scriptions of charitable persons, the second was the
school-pence given by the parents, and the third
was the grant from the council. It was sup-
posed that the council only gave a third of the sub-
scriptions, but the fact was that the subscriptions given by
the managers of the schools and the grants of the council
were exactly equal, being lls. 6d. each. But if they took
into account the training colleges and other matters, the
grant from the council became 15s. fid. as against Ils. 6d.
subscription, or in the proportion of four to three. They
found that the capitation grant was often wasted, and people
did not know what to do with it. It seemed imoroper that
the council should pay the whole salary of the pupil teachers
when they professed to encourage voluntary efforts, and yet
that amounted to £300,000. They, moreover, thus en-
couraged the employment of pupil teachers in preference to
others, and that seemed to be extravagance. The grant
to the masters was another instance of the extravagance of
the system. They paid the augmentation grant to the
masters, and putting the minimum at £l5, a case which
never arose, yet the grant was always paid. He re-
received £3O augmentation grant, £l5 for teaching
pupil teachers, £5 for teaching them drawing, £3
for teaching drawing to the scholars, and £5 for teach-
ing Welsh and Gaelic to the pupil teachers—in all
£5B, This aid was given in its most expensive and indiscri-
minate form. There was another point which he would wish
to criticise. The commissioners reported that the whole sys-
tem of education had been devised prior to experiment, and
that it did not meet the existing state of things. The system
was settled on the supposed age of the pupils, and they had
assumed a supposed state of attendance which did not exist.
In the average of schools 70 per cent. of the children were
under 10, 20 per cent, under 11 years of age, and 11 per cent.
under 12 years of age. The result was that a great propos-
tion of the children left school at or before 11 years of age;
89 per cent. of those who left school were under 12 years of
age, 70 per cent, under 10 years, and 80 per cent, under 11
years. When the house was estimating what establishment it
would keep up they mustbear in mind that they were making
arrangements for the education of the children of the very
poorest classes—those who lived by their labour, and of those
children 70 per cent, left school under 10 years, and 80 per
cent. under 11 years of age. That fact had been overlooked
in the whole controversy. This state of things had grown
worse instead of :better, and it was for children who left
school at this early age that the state provided a long array
of 16,000 certificated teachers, advanced books, and well got
up maps. The children who remained at the schools after
12 years of age, and who received the benefit, were not of
the very poorest class, for whom this system was specially
intended, He ventured to say it was their duty not to
interfere by their philanthropy with the parent in the edu-
cation of his child—(hear, hear)—but to endeavour, while
the child remained at school, to make its education as com-
plete as possible—to get the child to go to school at an early
age—to provide for its regular attendance—to spread edu-
cation as wide as possible, and what they could not thus
effect to supplement by a really efficient system of
evening schools, which would afford the opportunity of
recovering lost ground. He now came to another point.
He had shown that they were in communication with some
38,300 persons, all of whom, in some way or other, received
money from the Government, and between these people and
the Government a kind of golden bond was established
which they seemed to think was indissoluble. We had no
right to blame them. It always had been so, and always
would be so. If the Government was improvident to make
such an arrangement with so large a body of persons, they
bad only themselves to thank for it. The managers of
schools felt that they had subscribed their money and given
their time and trouble in founding the schools, and had
done all this relying on a certain amount of Government
support, and they felt, and no wonder, that it would be a
great hardship on them if that support were not continued.
Then the same thing applied to teachers, pupil-teachers,
and training colleges. As to training colleges, the managers
considered that every part of the system should be kept up
in its integrity, in order that there might be a sufficient
number of young men in the colleges. These feelings were
not unnatural. Government had ;created them; but he
wished to point out that such a state of things might bring
about most disastrous results, and that, like Pope's Atossa,
they would find themselves "by the means defeated in the
end," and that, instead of the grant being a grant for na-
tional education, it would become a grant for sustaining
vested interests in the existing machinery of education, and
that ministers, finding the fearful opposition they would
have to encounter from such a phalanx in any attempt to
divert the grant to its original object, they would relinquish
the attempt altogether, and no government would be found
bold enough to face the opposition they would meet with.
Now they felt that it was necessary to deal with this sub-
ject as soon as possible. They waited three years while
the commissioners were deliberating. The reason they
wore anxious to deal with the subject was the increasing
number of the claimants. They felt that such a state of
things would arise that it was necessary to deal with the
subject at once, it being foreseen that if the house did not
upon the earnest representation of the committee put a
stop to the evil, all control over the distribution of the
' grant would pass out of the hands of the Privy C oun-
cil and of Parliament into the hands of those who
were working the system,
while any demand that the
latter chose to make upon the minister would bo supported
by such an army of stipenliaries that no minister would be
found courageous enough to withstand it. Such a state of
things would be mo-t dangerous and unconstitutioral—
b, cause if, on the one hand, a minister obtained ur due in-.
flu- Lee over so largo a body of people it would certainly be
most unconstitutional; while, on the other hand, if so large
a body of men were to possess more influence over the mi-
nister than he had over them, then, indeed, there would be
a Most dangerous assault upon the exchequer, and it would
keens° necessary for the taxpayers to be on the alert,
(Hear.) Suppose, for instance, that in his present attempt
to vindicate the proper principle on which education grants
should be made, he were defeated and overthrown, who
would dare take up the gauntlet again ; and, if no one did,
what prospect was left but a gradual increase of these
schools and of the expense, and of the system which every-
one must condemn ? (Hear, hear.) To show that he was
not drawing on his imagination, he would read an extract
froin a publication, issued by a society of schoolmasters.
The right hon. gentleman then read an article from the
publication in question. It stated that the revised code, if
carried into operation, would lower the social status of
schoolmasters, and that in no other profession would an
attempt be made to affect them without the concurrence and
advice of the members of the profession themselves. That
was they wished the Government to consult them whether
they were to reduce their advantages or not, which was
very much like Turgot asking the chickens with what
sauce they would like to be eaten. (Laughter.) The ar-
ticle proceeded to say that constant persevering and
united action were required before this could be remedied.
One would think that one was reading a manifesto of the
anti-corn law league. It proceeded to say that if they
did not now exert themselves they would deserve all
the indignity that could be 1 eaped upon them, and
it urged upon teachers the necessity for immediate action,
and that they should take .advantage of the present
state of the political atmosphere by letting members of
Parliament understand that there were 9.000 teachers
who possessed the elective franchise, and that if members
wished for their votes they must refuse to support the re-
lised code. He (Mr, Lowe) thought:it was high time to look
into this matter, especially when he compared the language
used with the claims preerred. For instance, he found a
gentleman of high authority writing to a newspaper that the
teachers "had a right to expect a certain amount of repose
and freedom from anxiety," and that "they ought not to
be worried by examination," nor " worked like horses in a
gin," nor "victimised by additional drudgery," which was
described as a kind of "sneer," at their present position.
lie (Mr. Lowe) wis bed it to be particularly understood
na claimsal that those mh
thatNviii sucht r
although he could not help smiling at the manner in
e L u
means
wrongeda ns in Sc
their e
shouldendeavour re advanced,,
l htehdidsnele
not
ed o
consider it atr
about
oet em
un
to avert the wrong
by all
everyt
power, political or otherwise, but
he could not help, at ther
tem under which persons
same time, observing that a sys-
thsissbhoould be placed in the position
evidently occupied byParliament would do wisely idy of
persons, was one which
hear.) He looked upon it that putting an end to. (Hear,
attuhtits was one of the results
of the system that was not foreseen,
would distinctly understand that thoughe hhopeed the house
might
with any
at some of these expressions, he was not speaking
disrespect to this body of men, who were (may doing whatany
men placed in such a position were sure to do. If anybody

was to blame in the matter, it was those who had put them
in that position. Until this system of enormous creation of
vested interests was put an end to, he maintained that the
educational vote would never be under the control of Par-
liament. (Hear, hear.) There was one other matter, and
that was that the object of this vote vas undoubtedly to
call forth voluntary c ffort. In one case it had succeeded ;
it had raised a good deal of money, but he was afraid that
that money had been raised mainly from a class who could
ill spare it—namely, from clergymen. (Hear, hear.) He
could only say with Caesar, who, when traversing the field
of Pharsalia, and seeing the dead bodies of his soldiers,
exclaimed, " Hoc volerunt." He believed that the grants
hitherto made, instead of calling forth, had crippled, and in
fact, almost extinguished, voluntary energy. They had in
fact been uneducating the public mind from the voluntary
system, and that evil, he feared, they could not hope much
' to diminish. The house, he thought, would be surprised o
learn that the training colleges, which had undoubtedly
been established with the Lest of motives, were almost en-
tirely supported by the Government. No less than 99 per
cent. of the cost of that at Cheltenham was defrayed by Go-
vernment, and the proportion that the Government paid
towards the support of the training colleges was on an ave-
rage 90 per cent. He believed it was impossible again to
raise the voluntary spirit, There used to be a jealousy of
Privy Council grants, but that had quite gone, and had not
been seen for some years. It wasremarkable, also, that those
w. o had founded the schools, at great personal sacrifices, for
the purposes of education were the most opposed to anything
like a test being applied to them, so that, if conducted on
right principles, they might be confirmed in their course,
but if in error, that that course might be amended. The op-
posite would naturally have been expected, but he was sorry
to say that the dislike to any such test was most violent,
probably because they felt the voluntary spirit had sunk so
low that they had nothing to hope from it, and that the re-
sult of the examination might be to withdraw something
they could very ill spare. As ho had already said, he
thought it impossible again to raise the voluntary spirit,
and that being so, he thought it became the duty 4 the
Government to see whether they could not adopt some
course which would dispense with the necessity for its re-
suscitation, and whether they could not make the grant de-
pend on something which would be evidence that a good
education was given. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the i
commissioners that it would not be wise to interfere with
the denominational basis of the system, with its religious
foundation, and with the right of each sect to control its
own religious teaching. He also thought that the annual
grants should be abolished, and replaced by a uniform capi •
tation grant. This was, in fact, the turning point of the
question, for he saw no other means, of getting rid of tho
evils he had described. The next question was, how far
they could agree with what the commissioners prof osed.
The commissioners proposed-a grant from the county rate
on examination, and a grant from the central government
for attendance merely. But the Privy Council could not
agree to the county rate being charged. There was an evil
and a good connected with the system of charging local
rates for such purposes ; the evil being that a national bur-
den was thrown on a narrow area, and the good being that
it secured local management and supervision. But the pro-
position of the committee contrived to retain the evil and
to dispense with the good ; for, if accepted, the country
gentlemen would have no authority over the expenditure,
but all they could do was to appoint a committee of educa•
tion ; that committee was to appoint examiners, these exa-
miners were to examine, and on the result of the examina-
tion the county rates were to be charged. He did not
think the country gentlemen would be likely to accept this
merely ministerial office. Then, if the capitation grant was
to be paid from a central E ffice, the question arose on what
terms it was to be paid. The commissioners recommended
that part of it should be paid for the attendance cf the chil-
dren on the inspector's report, and part upon the result of
the examination. The objection, however, to that was
that it would not answer the purpose in view, which was
to increase the quantum of education, and not the quality.
They wished to bring as many children out of 3 every hun-
dred under education as possible. The result of this pro-
posal of the commissioners would be that one-half would
be received almost as a matter of course, and the other
half would probably be earned by the head classes of the
school. It the Privy Council had adopted this plan they
might have conciliated support, but thry would have de-
feated their object. To show that this was not a mere fancy
of his own he referred to a letter which had been written to
the editor a newspaper. The writer, in a transport of in
dignation, asked whether it could bo supposed that the
Privy Council intended to bring about a result which would,
in fact, be a withdrawal of all assistance from many schools;
and then, as a proof that such would be the result, referred
to one of the national schools, in which, upen an examina-
tion, the inspector found that even in the highest class only
three could read or write, and none could cipher. He (Mr.
Lowe) considered that the principle by which the grant
should be governed should be a jealous and an engrossing
principle, providing that the grant should only be made
where the school had fulfilled all the conditions necessary
to success, and implying the excellence of the school. It
had therefore been decided that there should be one grant
only, and that that grant should be based upon the test of
examination alone. The examination must prove an ex-
pensive and a troublesome process, and if the public were
saddled with that, it had a right to the fullest benefit that
could be got. It was therefore proposed that the grant
should be entirely dependent on the efficiency of the pupils
in reading, writing, and arithm etie ; that after the 100 at-
tendances by a pupil, the school should receive Id. for each
of his subsequent attendances, and that this sum should be
) reduced one-third if a scholar failed upon examination in
reading, one-third if he failed in writing, and one-third if
he failed in arithmetic. They had also made rules respect-
ing ventilation, lighting, &c., and provided penalties wher-
ever there were 30 pupils without a pupil teacher. That was
the substance of the minute,to which was to be added the pro-
positien for a fourth class of masters, which they had intro-
duced in order to extend the benefits of thesystem. The pupil
teacher would have received only £2O up to the time of his
being appoint ed,which ho thought would bee great incentive
to good conduct. He now came to a branch of the subject
which he thought would be most interesting to the house.
He had to inform them that it was not intended for the
present to extend the operation of the revised minute to
Scotland. (Hear.) Scotland had petitioned against any
interference at the present moment, and Scotland had many
claims for an attentive hearing. She had an educational
organisation 209 years old, and expected soon to devise a
satisfactory system for herself. (Hear.) With respect to
infants, it had been represented to them that it would be
straining their principle of examination too much to extee el
it to infants under six years old—(a laugh)—in fact there
was such a concurrence of opinion opposed to them en that
point, that all he could do was frankly to confess that he
had teen wrong in proposing that arrangement. (Hear.)
It was good that every encouragement should be given to
the attendance of infants at school, and for that reason it
was not proposed to require examination. Ho did not put
the change as a concession, but as the confession of an
error. (Hear.) They proposed to make infants entitled
to the capitation grant without examination. They pro-
posed that the schoolmaster should receive a penny for each
infant after 200 attendances. Another sub jec' they had to
consider was the training colleges. Properly speaking,
these institutions should be voluntary ; but the fact was,
that in most cases the Government contributed 90, and in
one case 99 per cent, to their support. They asked the
managers for increased subscriptions, by withdrawing the
lecturers in geography and some other i übjects, and by
giving up one-fourth of the Queen's scholars. He thought
that their position on this point was impregnable, but it
had been represented that these colleges were in a position
of very great difficulty, and therefore, deeming that the
whole question of the training colleges would require re-
consideration, they thought it better to leave the training
colleges as they stood. (Hear.) They recalled, therefore,
the propositions respecting the Queen's scholars and the
reduction of the lectureship. They had also withdrawn
the proposition requiring IG days' attendance from the
children in the month immediately preceding examination.
The next point was the forfeitures arising from the
absence of pupil teachers. He proposed now that the
I limit should be one to 40 children instead of 30, and of 80
instead of 60. They proposed to give a honorary certificate
after two years in the training schools, and he thought the
possession of that certificate should give them a preference
when seeking employment as teachers. A proposition which
had created a great deal of discussion was the age at which
children were to leave the elementary schools. If they left
at 11 and were eligible for the evening schools until 13, a 1
whole year was lost, and therefore they proposed that the
ch 1d should enter the evening school at 12 instead of 13.
They did this because the child attending the evening
school might be earning money for its parents. These were
I the amendments they proposed, which they expectedwould
considerably increase the receipts under the grant, and as
in their case the amount would not depend on examination, .
these infants would be so many " Little Treasures" to the
manager. (Laughter.) The *first of the objections to the
minute was, that the religious basis of the schools was not
sufficiently insisted on,and that the inspectors onlyinquired
respecting children in the ca,o of members of the Church of
England. Now this arose from a misunderstanding of the
inspector's functions. He was in fact a servant of the Arch-
bishop of Canterbury as well as of the Privy Council, and
it was in the former capacity that ho inquired into the re-
ligious question. He made no report to the Council on that
subject. Another objection was, that they were drawing toe
sharp a line between secular and religious instruction. The
Privy Council assisted all denominations, from the Roman
Catholics, who might be considered as atone pole of the re-
ligious world, to the Jews, who were at the other. It was
not t be expected it would interfere with all these reli-
gions, and this sharp lino was merely drawn because in the
case of the Church of England the inspector acted in a
double capacity. He thought that there need not be a sharp
line between religion, anal reading, writing, and arithme-
tic. There were some intervening points that might bo
cut out, and he would boldly add that there was a por-
tion of the religious instruction that might he taken away.
He meant those portions of Scripture history, such as dates
and the names of kings, which merely burthened the
memory, and was of no value in religious teaching. (Hear,
hear.) He thought it was taking a narrow view of the ques-
tion to say that there was any oprosition between religion
and the acquirement of facility in reading, writing, and
arithmetic. Ile c, uld uncicrstind how the boy taught to
read in infancy would turn to his Bible in after years, and

n a similar "way:would avail himself of his writing facilities
With respect to the religious safeguards, the diocesan com-
mittee of Exeter had testified that they were as strong on
the mind as in the old code. It could not lie too often re-
peated that the amount of the aid did not entirely depend
upon the proficiency of the scholars in reading, writing, and
arithmetic; but even assuming that additiocal responsibi-
lity would be thrown upon the managers of church schools,
those gentlemen ought not to shrink from assuming it; for
nothing could be worse than for the Church to show itself
reluctant or incompetent to discharge the office of training
up the children of this country in " the nurture and admo-
nition of the Lord." However, it was proposed to aster the
form of the minute so that no school should receive assist-
ance till it had been reported on by the inspector ; that the
inspector should not examine school till he was satisfied
that there was nothing in the state of that school which re-
quired the grant to be withheld ; and that the power of with •
drawing the grant should extend to faults of religious in-
struction in Church of England schools—to which alone
this question belonged. He now came to the question of the
loss which schools would sustain by the new code. That
loss, he considered, had been very erroneously computed.
The plan generally adopted was to take a particular school,
to estimate %% hat the children in it would earn if the revised
code we re adopted, that estimate being seldom made in a
very friendly spirit ; and then to assume that the difference
between that sum and the existing grant was the measure,
of that school's loss. Now, in the first place, it, was quite
true that some schools would not receive so much as here-
tofore, and it was intended that they should not, for they at
present receivsd a great deal more than they ought to do,
It had been argued that, as the commissioners considered
that three-fifths of the children would earn the grant, they
by implication inferred that the remaining two-fifths would
not, and that thus the grants would be reduced by two-
fifths. But that reasoning was inconclusive, because, in
the first place, one of those twc-fifths would include the
children who attended less than 50 days, and who thereflre
earned nothing; and the other fifth would include those
who, attending between 50 and 100 days, would earn very
little, so that the loss on account of the two-fifths who, it
was estimated, would not earn anything would in sea :11y be
very little. (Hear.) It was impossible for him to calcu-
late how much the schools would receive, but there were
certain data which he would mention, and from which
every gentleman might draw his own deductions. His be-
lief was, that at the date when the minute would come into
operation, viz., the 31st of March, 1863, there would be a
million children in their schools. The maximum which
could be earned by these children would be 15s. a head, or
£751,000 ; what the Government wished them to earn was
10s. a head on the average. At present the number who
attended long enough to receive the capitation grant was 42
per cent.—in other words 42 per cent. attended on more
than 176 of the 220 days on which the school was opened
in each year; and surely by the 17 per cent. who formed
the difference between the 42 per cent, and the 25 per cent.
who the commis Toners say were well instructed, the grant
might with moderate diligence be secured. (Hear, hear.)
Again, the children who attended upwards of AO days were
63.7 per cent., and the commissioners were of opinion that
besides moral instruction, all those might-be taught to read
and write, and to perform such arithmetical operatips as
were required in ordinary life. If so, there was a still
larger margin—namely, between the 25 per cent, of the
already well-instructed and this 63.7 per cent.—by whom
the grant might be earned. The utmost sum which a child
could earn if it attended twice every day the school was
open, namely 440 times, would be £1 Bs. 4cl. ; and the sum
that might be earned by attending twice in 176 days was
£1 Is. ; while that which might be earned by an infant
would vary between one penny and one pound. Thefailures
would, of course, generally be amongst the children who paid
least ; for, of course, if any were rejected it would probably
be those who attended the shortest time. If a child who had
attended 101 times was rejected, the loss would only be a
penny, whereas it it had attended the whol 440 titees it
would have been £1 Bs. 4d. It should be remembered that
all these calculations as to the effect of the new code were
based upon the existing state of attendance, whereas it was
hoped and expected that the code would itself supply a great
stimulus to better attendance. At present the child who
went to school 176 days in the year earned 55., and there
was no pecuniary inducement for him to attend oftener, but
the new code would supply a steady and regular pressure on
him to go as often as possible. Mr. Scott, one of the most
intelligent witnesses examined by the commissioners, stated
that the effect of the c .pitation grant had been to make the
managers of schools go round to the parents and canvass
them for scholars, and therewas reason to hope that the new
code would act in exactly the same way towards improving
the regularity of attendance. They might also hope that it
would tend to greater eccnomy of management by the
greater freedom of contract which it would give the ma-
nagers in dealing with their servants, with whom they
would be able to make their own bargains. No doubt cases
had been urged which they would vary much have wished,
if it had been possible, to consider. It had been said, for
instance, that a school which might do very little in the way
of actual teaching, might be the means of much moral good
to a neighbourhood. That was quite true ; and such schools
were very fitting objects of missionary exertions ; but they
were not fitting objects for assistance from the Committee
of the Privy Council. Sunday schools conferred a great
moral good upon the community ; but no ono had ever pro-
posed that they should be helped by the state ; and it had
only last year been determined to grant no further relief to
ragged schools. (Hear.) The new code could not in any
case conic into operation for a year and a quarter, and in
some instances it had not come into operation for a year
longer. There would therefore be ample time to prepare
for the change; and from the moment it was known that
the scheme had been adopted, there would doubtless bo an
increase of efficiency over what would be the case if the
schools were to be examined to-morrow, But they were
told that there were schools where the children were migra-
tory, and where it would be very difficult for them to earn
the grant. He admitted that such was the case, but the
question was whether these were the schools to which the
code ought to apply ? Whether, in fact, the State ought to
be called upon to provide an expensive machinery for those
who would not take the trouble to attend ?-(Cheers.) They
had a right to expect that the working classes, for whom
they did so much, should second the exertions which the
State and which benevolent persons made on behalf of their
offspring. (Hear.) The cost of educating a child was 30s. a
year; and of that the parent only paid 75., while the Go-
vernment and the managers each contributed Ils. 6d. It
was too much then to expect them to contribu' e to a school
if the parents were not able to meet them half way, though
he was quite willing to admit that cases of this kind showed
he harshness which was inseparable from the operation of
general rules. He should be glad if they were able both to
help schools because they were efficient, and to help schools
because they were Decay. But if they had two systems the
whole time of the department would be frittered away in
settling in which class each particular scho :1 should be
placed. On the other hand, if they were to have only one
system, would they lower the standard so as to degrade the
whole fabric in order that they might aid a few special
cases ? He could not promise that the revised code should
be either economical or efficient. The present system, how-
ever, was neither ; whereas he could promise them that the
new one should be either the one thing or the other. If it
was not efficient it would at all events be cheap, and if it
was not cheap it would be efficient. (Loud cheers.) He could
put it no higher than that. If it was a Government system
of education ho could force the people to avail themselves
of it ; but as it was a voluntary one it rested with the work.
ing classes to say whether they would accept the induce-
ments which it held out to them to send their children to
school. He now came to the question of vested interests.
Although it was argued in the abstract that those interests
should be maintained, there was hardly a pamphlet that
had been written on the subject which didnot propose some
sweeping infraction of them. For example, it had been
gravely proposed to transfer the whole burden from the
public to the school managers. It had always been admitted
that the present system was a tentative and experimental
one, and while, therefore, justice ought undoubtedly to be
done, no one had a right to ccmplain of any change that
might be introduced with a single view to the interests of
education and the public good. But the question of vested
interests had been chiefly discussed in reference to the pub-
lic teachers—probably on account of the large number of
persons who were concerned—otherwise he did not see why
their case should be more debated than the grants for draw-
ing or Welsh. Talking about Welsh, he had heard of
rather a tragical case, in which a person complained that
his school would gain no grant, because the position of the
schoolmaster was similar to that of Hotspur :

" This is the deadly spite that angers me ;
My wife can speak no English, I n' Welsh."
The master could not understand the pupils, or the pupils
the master; and so the ached earned no money. (Laughter.)
The position of the masters, as described by the commis-
sioners, was that of persons taken out of a rank of life where
they would naturally have been set to learn a mechanical
trade, educated at the public expense, and put into a position
where they received about £lOO a year for seven hours and
a half of work per diem on four days a week, with six or
seven weeks vacation every year. Mr. Wilkinson, the
assistant commissioner for the metropolitan district, stated
that the masters in London earned £122 a year; but that
they were generally very much discontented with their
lot. They complained that their remuneration was inade-
quate, and that they were not sufficiently appreciated. The
church masters' grievance was that their schools wore on
the ono hand often spoilt by the interference of
the clergy, and that on the other if they were successful the
clergyman claimed all the credit. The British masters also
complained of the lowness of pay, but they ware free from
priestly tyranny. Ths result in both cases, however, was
that the most talented men retired as quickly as they could
from the profession. Such was Mr. Wilkinson's account ;
but it could not be denied that the position of the masters
had hitherto been one of great prosperity ; and if they were
so discontented under the present system, it was not won-
derful that they should find fault with the revised code. As
Mr. Robinson said, they too often forgot that it was the cul-
ture they had received at the public expense that had made
them what they were. He hoped that the house would
not be too violently worked upon by their complaints. No
doubt they ought to have justice done to them ; but it must
not be forgotten that they found elements of discontent even
in the system which was now in operation. Their argument
was, that so long as they performed the conditions which
Were annexed to the grant, they were as much entitled to

the augmentation as an officer in the army or the navy was
to his pay. The teachers were not quite right in saying that
the grant depended upon their fulfilment of the conditions
required by the Privy Council. The grant was given to
them for the purpefies of the distribution of the grant to the
pupils, but it was not necessarily upon their fulfilment of all
the conditions annexed to it that it depended, for it might
be lost to them by the misconduct of the managers, for
which they could be in no way responsible, and over which
they had no control. If, for instance, the manager gave no
return to the Committee of Connell that he employed the
teacher, if the repairs of the building were so neglected as to
bring down an unfavourable report from the government
inspector, or supposing the manager refused to receive the
Visits of the inspector—upon any one of these grounds the
grant might be lost to the teacher, though he had nothing
to do with the misconduct which led to its Withdrawal,
This showed that the teachers put their claim too high in
this matter, for that could not be their property which could
be taken from them without any fault of theirs, and he
thought that a precise claim for a particular sum of money
could not be supported. Let the house consider, if it were
necessary that they should compensate the teachers for the
loss of the grant upon its withdrawal, what compensation
could they award ? And that was a question that they must
answer if they considered that they had in this case a vested
interest to deal with. These teachers had no doubt a fair
claim to every consideration that could be extended to them
consistently with what was due to the public, but the truth
was that their salaries had risen front the causes he had
already mentioned, and if that rise had c ccurred contem-
poraneously with the augmenta ion grants, it was not, as
was supposed, the augmentation grants to which the rise
was owing. The actual cause of the increase was that the
demand for schoolmasters had far exceeded the supply, and
it was not unnatural that those who shared the benefits of
that circumstance should suppose the rise in their salaries
to be consequent upon the augmentation. The salaries of
schoolmasters were measured cf course by the conditions of
supply and demand, and if a certain qualification was re-
quired and the demand exceeded the supply, that qualifica-
tion must necessarily increase in value. But what the
government did in the matter was to pay the schoolmaster
a Certain portion of his salary ; and although in making the
contract between the manager and the teacher all the cir-
cumstances affecting the salary were necessarily taken into
consideration, the government did no more than did the
managers in paying the salaries of the teachers, and if that
aid were withdrawn the loss would be in fact the managers'
and not the teachers'. And it must also be observed that
in this code the teachers received a very considerable in-
demnification. It was urged that this money was with-
drawn from them never to appear tiny more, but it was
given again in the capitation grants, and was only placed
more directly under the control of the managers, and
thus by placing a large sum in the hands of the mana-
gers, and encouraging the extension of the schools, the
government provided a plan which in some way tended
to increase the salary of the schoolmaster, while it pre-
served the market for him. lie thought upon the whole
that the class, though it was excusable and natural that
they should feel very sensitive when their salaries were
concerned, and should put the worst construction upon the
proposition of the Government, had, upon the rational and
sound view of the subject, no claim whatever to be consi-
dered as having a vested interest in the grant. It might be
said, why should the Government embarrass themselves
with a question of this nature—why should they not pay
the augmentation to the present schoolmasters till they were
worked out, and so save unpleasant disunion? Such a pro-
position was most tempting, but there were reasons why he
could not recommend such a course. Suppose that they
were to preserve the interest claimed by existing school-
masters, but not allow the same advantages to persons
coming in after a certain day. Let them consider what in-
justice would be done by following that course. A master
who had been in the service before the new regulation came
into operation, being entitled to MO a year, while a new
teacher coming in would have no title to such bounty, would
have the effect of shutting the profession against young
men and sacrificing its hopes and prospects to the interests
of the present members. The claim of the schoolmasters
was of a twofold character :—They claimed the payment of
so much a year upon their certificates, and they claimed
the condition annexed to the payment, namely, that the
manager should allow them twice the amount of their
claim. He had shown reasons why they should not re-
ceive the augmentation in specie, but he was willing to
give them a lien upon the capitation grants, and to enforce
the condition that they should receive from the manager
twice the amount of the augmentation. It was said that
the proposal of the Government was degrading education;
but the truth was that they fixed not a maximum of learn-
ing, but a minimum. What they said was, that no child
should earn a grant unless able to read, write, and cypher,
but they had no objection to any amount of learning be-
yond that being imparted, and he thought that, so far
from degrading education, a system which required labour
and industry at an early period of life was calculated to
elevate the character of the education of the country.
The object of the Government was to afford such an
education as might fit the pupil for the position in life
to which be might be called, and he thought no system
could be worse than that which would have the effect of
making every man discontentel with his situation. His
idea was that the Government were bound to consider the
requirements of the class they had to instruct and
the education they were capable of receiving, and then to
base the grant in aid upon the result of that examination.
It was said that they were sacrificing the pupil teacher to
the evening school, and no doubt they permitted the
master to instruct the pupil teacher in the evening school
with the other pupils, but was not the loss of the evening
schools a heavy price to pay for a little batter instruction to
the pupil teacher ? The pupil teackr would have to pass
an examination, and the master oftlfi school, to satisfy his
managers, must find the means of qualifying the pupil
teacher for that examination, and there was no reason why
he should not do so in the evening schools. The great
difficulty under which the evening schools laboured was that
of finding masters, and the want could only be supplied by
taking them from the day schools, which was to be accom-
plished only by relieving them from the duty now forced
upon them upon devoting their attention at certain times ex-
clusively to the pupil teachers. With regard to the group-
ing of ages, the outcry which hal been raised against the
proposition of the Government was upon a misunderstand-
ing of what was meant by a classification or examination in
class. The examination was intended to be an indvidual
examination, but what was intended to be implied was that
it should take place according to age. The instruct'on was
not required to be according to age; but unless some such
principle were adopted in the examinations, there would be
the difficultyaef finding an alternative which would not in-
volve a fatal interference in the management of the schools.
He never prete Aled to lay a scheme before the house which
was free from objection, but he maintained that although
it might be open to some objection that was no reason why
it should not be adopted. He would shortly point out the
advantages of his scheme. In the first place, it dealt with
individuals and not with classes, and it gave the managers
almost entire freedom in regulating their schools as they
pleased. It would also make the interest •of the school
identical with the interest of the public, and test the work
done, and give all parties concerned the means of appreciat-
ing each other's merits. Above all, it would for the first
time place this grant under the control of Parliament. Such
was the case which he now laid before the house. He
hoped ho ha shown there were circumstances in the exist-
ing system of education which unfitted it to be the perma-
nent system of this country, and that they were bound to
adopt a test definite, clear, and precise, by which the public
might know on what principles the education of the coun-
try was conducted. He had shown the impossibility of
persons in the position of the Government remaining quiet.
The difficulty had been forced upon the Government, and
they had endeavoured to discharge their duty to the best of
their ability, and he therefore now humbly submitted all
these matters to the consideration of the house. (Cheers.)
Mr. DISRAELI—Sir, after the ample exposkion of the
right lion, gentleman I wish to recall the house to the due
and proper relation which it bears to this statement, and
the course which ought to be taken in -consequence of its
being made. Sir, this statement is one which ought to
have preceded the introduction of the revised code, If it
had, what would have been the course for Parliament to
have followed ? He apprehended it would have followed
the course it always pursues when a Minister of the Crcwn
makes an important statement in respect to his department,
and does not feel it convenient on that occasion immedi-
ately to discuss its merits. It is obvious, under any circum-
stances, that a subject of this kind—involving principles so
important and details so multifarieus—requires a due and
ample consideration. I am therefore somewhat surprised,
considering the peculiar circumstances under which the re-
vised cede was arrested in its progress, that the right
honourable gentleman did not intimate to us when he in-
tends to call upon the house for an opinion on the project
of the Government. But the right honourable gentleman
says that the present case differs from the usual course of
affairs, because the house and the country have been in
possession for-some considerable period of the scheme. Let
us see if there is any justice in that observation. In the
fist place the house has a right always to receive apersonal
explanation from a Minister of any scheme before them.
Although I think that a suffi .;ient reason why an interval
should elapse before the house gives an opinion on a scheme,
and although I deprecate discussion at this moment—for I
know that hasty conclusions often follow desultory discus-
sions which the house afterwards regrets—in the present
case there is another consideration which we can not over-
leek, because we have not only a revised code brought before
us, but the revision of a revised code, (Laughter.) There-
fore I hope I am not misinterpreting the feelings of hon.
gentlemen on both sides when I conclude there is a general
wish there should be no formal discussion—no discussion—
to-night upon the masterly exposition of the right hon. gen-
tleman, but that the right hon. gentleman, or some other
member of the Government, would inform the house on
what night the opinion of the house on the whole scheme
will be taken, (Hear, hear.) I hope due time will be given
for its consideration. I do not agree with the tight hon.
gentleman that this is a subject of little magnitude, and I
do not think that such an observation, coming from a per-
son in authority, ought to pass unnoticed. It appears tome
that this is not a petty subject, but a very great subject, and
if I wanted any evidence to prove that, it would be afforded
by the speech of the right non gentleman himself, becere.
he commenced a series of arguments the whole effect of

.lov

which was to abrogate the present system of education.
That is a great question and ono of the utmost importance.
The right hon. gentleman had become acquainted only with
the question so far as the House of Commons was concerned,
during the palmy de ys of national education and the powers
and achievements of the Privy Council-office,_but there were
matty hon. gentlemen who remembered w2.len the question
was in a very different state—l being one of the m• I cannot
but remember the great results the labours of be Privy
Council have obtained, tentatively, as the right hoLL
gentle-
man chooses to consider it, and I cannot look at those is'lb°urs
without feeling that-in the future history of this country the

establishment of our present system of education will b.
a great result, which will redound much to the honour of
England. The right hen. gentleman seems to wish that
Parliament had more control over the Committee of Privy
Council ; but the right hon. gentleman forgets that some
years ago an office of great honour and authority was esta-
blished the object of which was that there should be a clear
and constitutional connexion between the doings of the
Committee of Privy Council and this house, and that that
office is now occupied by the right hon. gentleman himself.
Though no one would say that the right bon. gentleman
had done anything which ho was not entitled to do, yet
everybody felt that the Vice-President of the Committee of
Council for Education would certainly take no extreme step
with ut consulting the House of Commons. Hence the sur-
prise at the manner in which the revised code was introduced.
It was a measure which justified some explanations an the
part of the right hon. gentleman. The moment that Parlia-
ment was prorogued the revised code was published. I will
give no opinion at present on the revised code, but all seemed
to be agreed that it would create a great revolution. The
right hon. gentleman proposes to sweep away the old sys •
tern and to substitute a new system of his own. That being
so, the house had a right to expect that it would have been
introduced to the house before the prorogation. As I believe
it was laid on the table when the prorogation was announced
it is quite clear that the revised code must have been for some
time in one of the despatch boxes of the right hon. gentle-
man. (Hear.) Is that a constitutional course on the part
of the right hon. gentleman, who regrets the househas not
sufficient control over the conduct of the Privy Council ?
But I will ask this further question. Had the house the
slightest reason to expect that the Government were medi-
tating this change? I remember, in July, when the report
of the commissioners was presented to the house, the right
hon. gentleman felt it his duty to make same observations
on the subject. He described the character of the report of
the royal-commissioners, and he gave his ownopinion. The
right hon. gentleman said that the commissioners approved
of the existing system of education, and he added that the
Government themselves-1 am speaking from memory—
felt this was a question on which they ought to speak man-
fully and boldly, and they had no hesitation in saying they
adhered to that system. (Hear.) I ask hon. members on
both sides of the house whether that was not the impres-
sion of Parliament. (Hear.) I say nothing in vindication
of the existing system, or of the revised code. Then there
were the poor laws, and a great opposition was raised
against them. That opposition was from a political feeling
against having a powerful central authority. There was
also great opposition to the reform of the tariff, and that
also arose from a political feling that it might interfere with
our industries. Now, when the question of education was
discussed in this country, and the present national system
was brought forward, we had to encounter both political
and religious jealousy ; yet the great enthusiasm of the
people in its favour overcame this double feeling against it.
In 1860 a complete code was laid upon the table of the
house. I will not pretend to maintain that there was no
necessity for a change in it, and I will not enter upon the
discussion of the proposed change to-night, but what I wish
to impress upon the house is, that this system of popular
education, which. in the course of many years, was with so
much moderation, and with so much firmness, supported by
the administration of the country and the great enthusiasm
of feeling of a large body of the people was established; it
was established under greater difficulties than the recon-
struction of our representative system, the reform of the
pauper code, or the commercial tariff, had to encounter, and
it produced a not less powerful effect upon the public mind.
Now, what should we have thought if the state of the law
in this country was such that on a day after the proroga-
tion of Parliament a minister of the Crown, not liking the
Reform Act of 1832, had abrogated it, and introduced a
new Reform Act—(hear)—or if the Chief Commissioner of
the Poor Laws had erased the whole body of minutes which
former commissioners had framed, and had introduced
a new code; or what should we have thought of the
President of the' Board of Trade rescinding the model
tariff, and substituting a new commercial system founded
upon the principle of reciprocity ? (Hear.) The house
could not reconcile such a system to their minds. Indeed,
it was beyond the dream of possibility, and yet we have
found that such a course can be pursued in this country in
the matter of popular education by the Committee of the
Privy Council. (Hear, hear.) Ido not mean to say that
the right hon. gentleman's principal—the President of the
Committee—has taken any step which was not perfectly
legal on his part; yet it is to be regretted that a minister
placed in so high a position as the right hon. gentleman
should have felt it his duty to take it. (Hear, hear.) 1
think no one will doubt that, whatever may be the or inion
formed upon the revised code and the existing system of
education, some means should be taken to ensure to Par-
liament a complete control over the doings of the Commit-
tee of Privy Council for Education. (Hear, hear.) Though
the act of the Government may have been justifiable, yet I
cannot conceive an act which essentially could have been
more violent or more unwise than that the moment Par-
liament was prorogued a minister should take the course
which the right hon. gentleman did, and abrogate and an-
nul all the existing minutes which have been in operation
for more than a quarter of a century, and give in its place
a new minute which, so far as I can collect, was to come
into operation without the House of Commons having any
control over it. (Hear, hear.) That is a monstrous state
of affairs, and one which, if it had been suggested last
year, hon. members would have agreed was utterly incre-
dible. (Hear, hear.) Whether the complaints against the
original and the revised code be right or wrong, the school-
masters have a right to receive the expressions of public
gratitude for having resisted this course of violent pro-
ceeding, and for having taught us our position as regards
our control over one of the most important de-
partments of the State. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, far
froni regretting what has taken place, it is with the
warmest admiration we should feel that the House of Com-
mons has found its true position in this respect. I hope
the house will not discuss the subject to- night, but will
on a future occasion consider it in a spirit as solemn as
it .deserves ; and I hope the Government will find it conve-
nient to give the house some time to consider the subject
before they ask for its opinion uponit. (Hear. hear )
Mr. NEWDEGAIE said the r ght hon. gentleman op-
pctsite had stated that the children in schools of Protestant
denominations would not be examined in religion, and that
the children in Church of England schools would be exa-
mined on religious matters under the supervision of the
two archbishops of the Church. The question he wished
to ask was whether, in the event of any failure on the part
of any school of either Protestant denomination or of the
Church of England, the penalties under the new code
would attach to that failure, and be the same as if there
were a failure on the Fart of those schools which only
taught reading, writing, and arithmetic?
Mr. KINNAIRD said he merely wished to expr:ss hie
concurrence with what had fallen from the right hon. gen-
tleman the member or Bucks (Mr. Disraeli), and to say
that this was a matter which required the gravest consi-
deration of Parliament.
Mr. CAIRD wished to know whether the new code
would apply to the schools in Scotland.
Lord R. CECIL understcod the right hon. gentleman to
say that he expected the estimate for these schools would
be ab, ut £500,000. Did it not amount to more than that
sum at present ?
Mr. LOWE, in reply, said the whole estimate for the
department was no doubt considerably more, but ZCO,OOO
would be the sum required for these schools, and that it
was not intended to apply the minute to the schools in
Scotland. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) had
asked what he thought of a minister rescinding the Reform
Act and promulgating a new nne, and his answer was i hat
he should think he was mad. (Hear.) The right hon. gen-
leman then complained that the minute was net laid upon
the table until the day before the separation of Parliament,
and that it would come into operation immediately. But it
should be remembered that the first examination under it
would not take place before the 25th July, 1862, and there-
foro not until after Parliament had properly dealt with the
whole subject matter. The right. hon. gentleman (Mr.
Lowe) then referred to his speech delivered in the house on
the 12th July last, showing that the new minute was ex-
plained to the house at that time. He was in hopes of lay-
ing it earlier on the table than the 27th July, but that was
found to be impossible. If it had been intended to with-
draw this minute from the consideration of Parliament, it
would not have been laid on the table at the end of a session.
The object of the Government in acting
as they had done
was, that the minute should be thoroughly examined by
those who took an interest in the subject, and it had under.
gone a full discussion. If he had wanted to play fast and
loose with the house he should have ?ursued a contrary
course, and would have hoped that other business would
have caused less consideration to be given to this matter.
The question was now in the hands of the house, and it would
be for the house to fix a day for its further discussion,
Mr. NEWDEGATE repeated the question which he
had asked.

Mr. LO WE said if an inspector reported that the religious
teaching in a school was not satisfactory, the grant would
bo withheld altogether, but in regard to other matters it
would be in the power of the committee to withhold not less
than one-tenth or more than one-half of the grant. This
was a minor penalty introducei for the first time.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said he had heard with great satis-
faction the reason why the revised code was not introduced
at an earlier period of the last session. The house cught
not to be taken by surprise, or deprived of that security
which it had so long possessed in this matter. He would
refer the house to the proceedings under Lord Derby's Go-
vernment of 1852,. when some changes were introduced of
minor importance in reference to the education grant, and
all parties agreed that Qv house ought to have some con-
trol over the Committee of the Privy Council. He had
listened to the speech of the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
Lowe), but he th=ght it would be undesirable on this oc •

casiotl to discuss the points raised upon the new code. He
musts
lay that' e was surprised at the apparent inconsis-
tency 1 )otweesk the language whtch the right hon. gentle-
man (It Tr. Leave) had used to-night and that which he hull
used las :session, when he had said that in the revised code
the whol e system of the Privy Council would be left intact
and it wa a owing to that assertion that public indignation.
had been SO much aroused when a code was laid on the
table at tl to extreme end of the session, which appeared to
upset the whole principle of the Privy Council. The right
hon. gent" !email had stated to-night that "the whole plan
was to sa% 'cep away the existing principle." It might be
possible tl sat the right hon,
.gentleman had used the words.
in a more lien ited sense than he was giving them, but almost
lA. last wards applying to the Privy Council were " un-
worm? of a -permanent and definite system." He thought
that 'the 'hour 'e and the country had a right to complain of
the course wk ich the Government had pursued. The right
hon. g entlema n had alluded to those who had spoken on this
matter , luring- the recess. He (Sir J. Pakington) was one
of these, but h.s could assure the right hon. gentleman that„
though h a had. condemned the existing system, he had care --
fully guarded himself against the expression of an opinion
which would fetter his action in that house, and he was pre-
pared to co Ise to the consideration of the question in the
most imparti 'al nnd dispassionate spirit. He had always
maintained t] to opinion that if it were attempted to educate
all England under the present system it would be found too
costly and too highly centralised, and in that opinion he
was now fortified by /he report of an impartial commission
and the able speech of the right hon. gentleman to-night,
which was less a vindication of the revised c ode than. a.
powerful' attack on the existing system.
Mr. WALPOLE hoped that the Government would give
a silecific ansm-er both as to the time and the mode in which
this tluestion -was to be discussed, and suggested that the
Geyer lament should, for the convenience of discussion, lay
before t'he house in parallel columns the system as it existed
and asit
was proposed to be altered, so that the house could
modify por'ti'ons, or adopt or reject the whole.
Sir G. GH.EY said that Government were anxious that
the minute she aild be discussed in the form most acceptable
to the house. When alterations were made from time to
mina. to of the Privy Council, it was laid on the
ttiamblee,in nyanadit was qt,lite competent to any member to make a.
motion on the subject, and of course it would be equally
competent to any hon. gentleman to do the same on this oc-
casion. If that course shou2d not be taken, the Government
would be bound before they could carry out the system to
ask the house for a vote of money, and on taking that vote
it would be open to any member to object to the minute;
but if no motion were made by any hon. gentleman whe
' objected to it, then the Government did not intend to do so.
Mr. LOWE, in explanation of what had fallen from the
right hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakington) said that his remarks
Keit year were to the effect that the Government did not in-
tena' to make any change in the fundamental system of the
count il, and that what he had said to-night alluded to the
4uanua I granting of money.
The motion was then agreed to.
SEWAGE OF CITIES AND TOWNS.

Dr. is'ILADY gave notice of the following motion :
g 4 To mo, -e for a committee to inquire into the best means
the sewage of the cities and towns of England,
to the reduction of local taxation and the bene-
nowfti
tuohtfi
alaigsvirini
eats,*
lurned at 20 minutes past 9 o'clock.
The house adj\