The Sun.
London, England, 1862-02-12 00:00:00

would venture to bay that the two great votes of the esti- i (Laughter.) If that be the only reason, I confess it does not
mates, viz., the number of men and the money required for I weigh with me, having generally to be in my place. As to
them, would be taken at once, and the only questioi s left for the argument of the hon. member for Brighton, it does not
discussion would be those details. If that were E'O, where refer to the question. The hon. member says that since
would they be ? They would have parted, in the early part the passing of the Reform Bill some years ago the expen-
of the session, with that control which they ought to have diture has greatly increased ; but does the hon. gentleman
over the public expenditure, because, by their first votes, really mean that if one day in the week is devoted to sup-
they would give up the main substance upon which all their ply he will have a better opportunity than he had before
other votes hung. (Hear.) The hon. members for Lambeth of controlling the expenditure ? The honourable member
and Brighton thought they would get greater control over is always in his place. His observations on expenditure
the expenditure by the altered form of proceeding which have been well considered both by the house and the coun-
they attempted to introduce. But how were they to do that? try, and if after 25 years of continued exertion he has not
They would go into committee at 5 o'clock. When was the succeeded in reducing the expenditure a single stiver, I
dull time in the house ? From 7 o'clock to 10. Hon. mem. say that is absolute proof that the administration of the
bers might no doubt argue particular votes, but they could country has been conducted in a more business-like manner
not travel one inch beyond them, and none of the collateral than the hon. gentleman would lead us to believe.
questions connected with them could be discussed. If the (Laughter.) Then we aro told that the great advantage of the
hon. members for Lambeth and Brighton were really desi- proposed change is that it would ensure regularity and cer-
rous of controlling and checking expenditure, he was confl- tainty in our proceedings. Regularity and certainty are no
dent they would do it better by adhering to the old rule of doubt estimable qualities, but in a popular assembly like
the house rather than by giving up that usage, which ena- this there are other advantages to be obtained which 'are
bled them to exercise a control which the House of Com- greater than regularity and certainty. The function of the
mons should never abandon. But was there nothing else House of Commons is not merely to transact business, but
which they ought to consider ? For many years they had to represent public opinion, and of those two functions the
been trying to improve the course of procedure in the house, representation of public opinion is more important. -you
and they had succeeded in improving it. Many suggestions will never get a large body of men like this popular assem-
.were made by different speakers, and by the Speaker as bly, of which it is our pride to be members, who will con
much as any, because he presided over the committee which duct business with the precision and regularity of a public
sat in 1848, and made recommendations considered with the office, but in an assembly constituted like this you will find
greatest care and prudence. The two last committees which that sensibility to public feeling, that quickness and appre-
sat upon the forms and procedure of the house in regard to ciation of the public desire, that determination to represent
public business had this particular question referred to the grievances of the people, and that resolution to vindicate
them, and both had refused to recommend such a change as the rights and privileges of the people, that only can be
that proposed. Those committees were composed of most in- found in a numerous assembly, constituted as we are, and
fluential members of the house, and their opinions were elected as we are. And we must look to these higher duties
confirmed by the house when the question was brought be- and these more important qualities of the House of Cora-
fore it ? But had committees done nothing to diminish the mons when we consider the programme by which the pro-
opportunities which unofficial and independent members ceedings of this house are regulated. It is very possiblethat
had for bringing forward questions when and how they time may be wasted, but however you may change your
pleased ? They had shut up almost all the avenues to inde- rules and regulations time must necessarily be wasted in an
pendent members, and they would shut up nearly everyone assembly constituted as this is. But do you obtain thegreat
if they gave up this power. (Hear, hear.) On the order of results for which you meet ? Is the country satisfied that
the day for committee of supply they might challenge the there is a large body of men of considerable eminence inthe
minister upon any subject they wished. Those members country who are watching over their rights and interests?
unconnected with office had two days on which they could They are, and they care not for the forms of the house in
bring forward notices of motion ; one of those days had comparison with the great considerations which I have
been taken from them. He did not complain of that. He named. They care nothing for the lesser point, but the other
believed it was even right to do so; but they must bear in is one which if you tamper with and trench upon you will
mind their opportunities for independent action were taken ultimately find you will raise in this country a spirit of
away from them one after another, and now it was sought discontent and just dissatisfaction which you will hereafter
to take away that opportunity which the House of Com- have much to regret. But I ask you frankly, what are we
mons possessed for exercising one of its fundamental powers to gain by all this pedantic change ? I do not think that
—namely, not to grant a shilling of money until the people the sessions of Parliament are too long. I think, compared
of the country had had an opportunity of laying their grieve with the business of the country, and the wants of the coun-
ances and complaints before the house. lie did not wish try, the House of Commons ought to sit at least six months
to travel any further in that direction, because he thought every year. But the legislative business, it is said, is hur-
the hon. gentleman would hardly, after the intimation of ried at the end, The legislative business is very often given
the Secretary of State for the Home Department, persevere up at the end, and very wisely, I think. I say that the
with his motion as it now stood, and if that were so, it was sessions of this house are not too long, that the average
desirable to see the form of the right hon. baronet's pro- session is not too long to represent the wants and the feel.
posal before they were asked to express an opinion upon it. ings of the people. I say that if you were to succeed in
(Hear, hear.) lie could not part with the subject without cutting down the sitting of Parliament a mouth in a year,
requesting hon. gentlemen to read the report made by the as you were told last year we should, you would lose your
committee of last year—a report drawn up by a man whose influence in the country. Why, many things are happening
grave authority,whose wise administration, whose thorough when Parliament is not sitting which are to be regretted. I
knowledge of the business of the house and of the constitu- do not want to give an opinion of the new minute on educa-
tional principles upon which they were to act, rendered his tion, but if that minute had been laid on the table of the
judgment and opinion of the utmost value. The voice of that house when the house was sitting, its production would
man was no longer in that house, but his report was there, have been of great advantage. And there is the Moorish
and ho knew, from conversations with him, that if there treaty. I should have liked very much for the house to
was one point more than another on which he was anxious, have been sitting when the Moorish treaty was being nego-
it was that they should not part without the greatest deli- tiated. Things happen in every recess when the public
beration with any of those poweis and authorities which think it would be well if Parliament were sitting. If we are
the house as an independent body ought to exercise. Sir to have a proposition of this kind, I hope the house will
James Graham was unfortunately taken from among them. take a large view. I hope they will not let the praiseworthy
(Hear, hear.) The gap which he had made in the house efforts of the hon. member to save time tamper with their
was a gap not easily supplied. (Hear, hear.) He felt that privileges. Last year we made several changes ; the sub-
the whole house subscribed to that opinion, and he would ject was elaborately examined, and Ido not question their
say no more upon the subject. He would only once more propriety. They were considerable changes, in my opinion,
entreat them to bear in mind that almost the last words Sir and if more changes are to be made, they should be made
J, Graham addressed to the house were those contained in gradually. So far as lam at present advised, I think we
that valuable report, in every part of which he (Mr. had better :remain where we are. Let us see how the
Walpole) most heartily concurred, and to the conclusions of changes made last session will work. My right hon. friend
which he was only endeavouring to give a most feeble, but has referred to the eminent individual who presided over
warm and earnest support. (Cheers.) the commiteee which recommended those changes. It was
Sir G. C. LEWIS said the right hon. gentleman had put to me a source of the greatest satisfaction to sit by his side
the question on a fair issue when he said that the point during the whole of that committee. I believe I was
they had to decide was whether the adoption of the rule acquainted with all that passed in his mind, but I am
now proposed would or would not facilitate the ample and sure we are doing no great respect to his memory, if after
free discussion of the estimates. Upon that issue he was the labour which he endured in presiding over that com-
perfectly willing that the question should be tried. In his mittee within a few months only of his lamentable de•
opinion the adoption of that rule would facilitate the dis- cease, we do not give the recommendations of the report
cussion of the estimates. Some gentlemen had expressed which he himself drew even the courtesy of fair play; but
a wish that their orders should be altered in the manner the very first day on which the house meets again the house
pointed out, and he concurred with them in that opinion. is met by a crude proposition, so crude that before the hon.
He would shortly state his :reasons. It must be remem- gentleman had been ten minutes on his legs he found that
bered that, when the House of Commons made orders for what he proposed was perfectly untenable; and then her
the conduct of public business, those orders should not be Majesty's Government came forward to say that they will if
evaded. By the present rules, one night (Tuesday) was necessary produce another proposition which will accomplish
entirely devoted to the notices of motions of unofficial the same purpose, but not in so absurd a manner. I am
members. One day of the week (Wednesday) was devoted sure the house will never consent that we should come to
entirely to the orders of unofficial members. There was any determination on this subject without great considers-
another night (Friday) which was practically devoted to tion, and I entreat gentlemen on both sides of the house to
notices of unofficial members. The right honourable gen- guard their privileges, and if they are lost you may depend
tleman took an inaccurate view of the change made last upon it that the people will look upon you as false to their
sessien when he said that Friday was taken away from in- interests. (Hear, hear.)
dependent members. The change from Thursday to Friday Lord PALMERSTON—The right hon. gentleman has
was only nominal. Instead of speeches being made on the discussed the question whether the sessions of this house
question of adjournment from Friday till Monday, they are too long or too short. Now the natural feeling, I ap-
were now made on the motion for going into supply, the prehend, is, on that side of the house, that a long session is
order of supply being invariably placed first on that day. desirable, and on this side of the house, so far, at least, as
Therefore, he contended that, practically, two notice nights those on this bench are concerned, that a short session is
and one order day were exclusively at the disposal of non- desirable. (Laughter.) The former is no doubt the feeling
official members, namely, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Fri- with which hon. gentlemen opposite, fresh from the recrea-
day. It was a rule of the house that government orders times of the recess, come to the session of Parliament. It is
should have precedence on Thursdays and Mondays, during the session of Parliament that they are best able to
and he presumed that it must be the intention of the criticise the acts of the Government, to influence the march
house that, practically speaking, the government orders of public affairs, and to take that prominent part in the
should come on first on those days. But it was business of the country which naturally belongs to men of
well known that before Easter the first order was generally their eminent character. But I think, if we are to judge
supply, and the rule which enabled hon. members to antici- men by their actions rather than by their language, if we
pate that motion practically converted those two nights look back to what happened towards the conclusion of the
into notice nights. That was the practical effect produced session we may be led to think that gentlemen on this side
in the business of the house before Easter, and the conse- of the house are more tenacious and persevering and less
quence was that the discussion on the estimate was greatly sensible of the inconvenience of the length of the session
delayed and impeded, and the legislative business thrown to than gentlemen on that side, because it usually happens
the end of the session. (Hear, hear.) Now the proposal towards the end of the session that those benches get very
submitted to the house, he confessed, seemed a reasonable thin indeed, while the faithful corps on this side of the
one. It was important that members should not be left in housi) maintain their post ; and it is often made a
a state .of uncertainty on Thursday. The object of the reproach to the Government that they are urging measures
motion, as he understood it, was that members should not of importance at a late period of the session, when they
be in a state of uncertainty, but that when they came down have a strong body of adherents in office, and when those
and the committee of supply was called, they should know whose duty it is to oppose them are resting from the
it would occupy all night, whereas if they saw a string of fatigues of the session, and have retired to a more easy posi-
notices relating to a number of miscellaneous subjects, it tion. (Laughter.) However, I will not dilate upon that.
was uncertain how long they would occupy. Perhaps they With regard to the motion of my hon. friend, I should think
came and found that supply had come on in their absence, after what has passed this evening he will feel he has satis-
and that they had lost their opportunity, and great incon- tied his own feelings, and that ho will not press the motion
venience was the result. What was proposed was that to a division. With regard to the general question I agree
on Thursday nights supply should come on first, which very much with the right hon. gentleman who spoke from
did not seem an unreasonable proposition to make, and the upper bench (Mr. Walpole), and the right hon. gentle-
he thought it would not be attended with these dan- man who spoke below (Mr. Disraeli). I stated in the com-
gerous consequences which his right hon. friend mittee 'that one of the most important functions of this
spoke of, because there would be an opportunity on house was to represent the opinion of the country, to be the
other supply nights, or on. Tuesdays, to make motions. If organ of the country with regard to anything which they
the house would look to this matter in a dispassionate man- considered a grievance, and that it was very inexpedient
nor they would see that this alteration would tend, not to by any reguf lation which we might think conducive to the
the inconvenience of members of the Government,despatch
its business,
to gag as it were that organ, and to
they had to attend every night, and it was to them' a becausematt
of indifference what time the orders came on, but it was ar preventai thtexap!essingthe opinion of the country in matters
mgwhichriewe.as Therefore,made I was against the sweeping
serious matter for unofficial members to know for a certainty proposal by some members last session to
when supply a ould come on.
curtail ' entirely those discussions which take place on
Mr. DISRAELI—I do not clearly understand the right going into committee of supply. It is undoubtedly the
hon. gentleman whether he supports or opposes the motion opinion of some that some restriction might be put on the
of the hon. member. In case he is supporting the motion latitude of discussion; that whereas till last year there
it is inconvenient, on this occasion, to be discussing another were two days in the week on which supply might stand,
motion which is not before IV. I will first dispose of the and on which motions might be made, there are
motion of the hon, member for Brighton, and that motion now three, and therefore one might be withdrawn with-
I have no hesitation, as far as lam concerned, in opposing. out curtailing materially those opportunities which hereto.

The motion is, that immediately after the estimates are
brought in a day should be fixed in each week when griev-
ances may not be discussed before supply is granted. Now,
great inconvenience might arise from a resolution of that
kind. It may be that the Government might be inconve-
nienced by such a course. They might not want supply.
Suppose they brought forward a great measure, and wanted
to proceed with that measure continuously, it might inter-
fere to have a committee of supply regularly on one night
every week. Supposing a great measure were before the house
committees might be sitting in celebrated localities without
the walls of the Houses of Parliament, and could the hon.
gentleman the member for Brighton, in the midst of his
enthusiasm, wish that the house should, under such circum-
stances, formally go on a certain night every week into
committee of supply ? I am sure that the hon. gentleman
is of too ardent a temperament to submit to such control, and
therefore he will see that managing affairs in Parliament is
not so methodical a matter after all when 3 ou have to deal
with the passions and prejudices of a large body of men. I
take it for granted that the house will never agree to this—
that immediately after the estimates are laid on the table
we should proceed compulsorily to vote supplies. That is
the proposition we are called to decide upon to-night, and
therefore I anticipate that the motion of the hen. gentleman
will be negatived. It would have been much better if the
discussion had closed with that result, but after the obser-
vations from the Treasury bench we cannot let the matter
rest there, because we hose a counter proposition—l will
not say proposed, but recommended by the Government—
that there should be one day every week set apart, if neces-
sary—not a compulsory, but an optional arrangement—for
voting supplies. There appear to me the gravest objections
in fixing one day in the week, even if optional, for voting
supplies, without previous consideration of grievances. I
have not heard any answer from the right hon. gentleman
to the observations of the hon. member for Inverness. Do
I 'understand that it is intended to prevent motions coming
on Which are irrelevant to supply ?
Sir G. GREY—Those which do not refer to the partieu-
lar vote.
Mr.isitA. D
miar•_ ELl—Yes, but they may refer to the parti-
the
subject to Which the votes refer. I do not think that house Will
question is, lebai
submit to a resolution of that kind, but the
only argument in fay
do We gain by these considerable revolu-
tions in rules reguia
are interested in certain
votes
the discussions of the house. The
of it is that certain members who
oppor-
tunity of discussing
those votes
if they are to enjoy the
Of and unjustifiable inconve t.es must submit to the unheard
luelace being in' their places.

fore have been enjoyed. My right hon. friend the Secretary
for the Home Department has intimated an arrangement by
which the object might be accomplished, leaving always
the same amount of freedom of discussion on Mondays and
Fridays which has hitherto been enjoyed. It is quite true,
as stated by the right hon. gentleman, that this house is I
not merely a department for the purpose of examining es-
timates and passing accounts. It has higher functions
much more important to the interests of the country. But
it is a fair subject for consideration whether such an ar-
rangement as that intimated by my right hon. friend might
not be adopted without injuriously restricting the oppor-
tunities which members have on going into committee of
supply. At the same time I a hould feel that no arrange-
ment of that kind ought to be adopted, except with the
general concurrence of the house, and that it would not be
fitting that a bare majority should impose restrictions
which a large minority might think inconsistent with con-
stitutional principles; and therefore I would suggest that
hon. gentlemen should turn this matterover in their minds.
and that on some future occasion the matter might be pre-
sented for their consideration in a way less liable to objec-
tion than the proposition of my hon. friend the member for
Brighton.
Mr. WHITE replied, complaining of the terms in which
his motion had been met by the right hon. member for
Bucks. But there was nothing surprising in hearing an
ingenious speech from that right hon. member. The right
hon. member could make an ingenious speech on any or on
eve y subject. He knew that the right hon. member could
prove--
"That right was wrong and wrong was right,
That white was black, and black was white."
(Laughter.) He (Mr. White) was quite willing to accept
the suggestion of the right hon. Secretary for the Home
Department, and trusted he should have that right hon.
gentleman's support on a future occasion.
COMPENSATION FOR ACCIDENTS.
Mr. AYItTON moved for leave to bring in a bill to
amend the law relating to the recol ery of damages by work-
men and servants, and of compensation by the families of
workmen and servants, for accidents. Formerly masters
were not held responsible in case of accidents, but by a re-
cent decision the judges had shown a disposition to remedy
the hardship of the case, and make the rule less oppressive.
He thought, however, that the legislature should settle the
matter, and with that view he asked leave to introduce the
bill, which could be then printed and its provisions care-
fully canvassed by hon. members.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL quite felt the important),