The Sun.
London, England, 1865-04-15 00:00:00

M. Thiers on the Italian Question.

PARIS, April 14.

The following is a summary of yesterday's debate
in the Corps Legislatif upon the paragraph of the
address relative to the September Convention be-
tween France and Italy :
" M. Thiers rose to address the Chamber upon the
second amendment to paragraph 19 relative to the
September Convention. He said this grave question
comprised two questions, the Italian and the Ro-
man—one having given rise to the other. To sepa-
rate them would be to separate the effect from its
cause. 4lt is necessary, then, to unite them in this
debate.' The speaker said that, in taking his seat
on the benches of the Chamber, his idea had been
to contribute to the re-establishment of political
liberties. M. Thiers continued :—When one pursues
a great end secondary differences should be sacri-
ficed to it. To-day I shall not speak, and shall not
vote as the other members of the Opposition. M.
Thiers respected their opinions, they respected his,
and this frankness upon the points on which divided
them would prove their sincerity upon the points
on which they were in unison. The hon. member
first touched upon the Italian question. Italy was
one of the countries he had most visited and most
loved. He comprehended, therefore, the wish to
advance its welfare, and to bestow upon it the most
urgent good, that of liberty. But after the Crimean
war the sympathy of the Western Powers sufficed
to insure the liberty of Italy. What made the Ita-
lian princes resist their subjects was that they felt
Austria and Europe at their back. After the Cri-
mean war Austria found herself isolated and they
would have yielded. The King of Naples was dead.
The Grand Duke of Tuscany had abdicated, and
constitutional government was about to be esta-
blished in two principal States of Italy. It already
existed at Turin. If Piedmont had been aggran-
dized in consideration of indemnities, Italy constitu-
tionally governed would have entered upon a better
course than that in which she is now engaged.
Without doubt there was a means, if not surer,
at least more prompt, of labouring for the regene-
ration of Italy—war. But war must immediately
lead to attempts at unification: Now Italian unity
is not desirable for France, and is hardly so for
Italy herself. It is not desirable for France—the
parallel of a Power raising up on her frontiers a
Power almost equal to herself would be vainly
sought in history. None but contrary instances
would be found. It is Sweden struggling against
Russia to prevent the development of the lat-
ter ; Austria struggling against Prussia striving to
aggrandize herself ; England against Spain wishing
to conquer Portugal, and against France to shut
her out from the mouths of the Scheld. It
is not an old policy, but an eternal policy, which has
always led States not to create around them great
new States. It is said that Italy will be for us a
useful and devoted Power. This M. Thiera did not
credit. Her fidelity would endure so long as she re-
mained weak, and Italy would be right. It:would be
iniquitous to create a Power in order that it might
be eternally dependent. The future history of Italy
is written in the past House of Savoy, which has
never consulted any but the interests of the day.
The unity of Italy falsifies besides the whole policy
of France. Everybody now wishes for peace in
Europe ; but there are upon the horizon three ques-
tions which may become perilous :—The ambition of
Prussia tempted by the example of Victor Em-
manuel, and looking to the realisation of German
unity,—a serious danger for France ; the Eastern
question, which can only disturb the equilibrium of
Europe to the profit of the Northern Powers ; and,
finally, the tendency of the Continental Powers to
re-establish their ancient union, destroyed by the
Crimean war. In view of this state of things, who
was the essential, the necessary ally for France ?
This was Austria. But the unity of Italy renders
France the antagonist, perforce, of Austria. The
war in Italy, therefore, is a misfortune for France,
at least, in its consequence. Little desirable for
France was Italian unity, continued M. Thiers,
more so for Italy. Without doubt it was the wish of
some generous spirits beyond the Alps, but the mass
of the people did not partake this idea. What natu-
ral bond was there, in fact, between Venice, with
its aristocratic traditions, and the despotic Florence
of the Medicis, with its fortunes embellished by art;
between the Monarchy of Savoy, Italian only by
finesse, and the monarchy of Naples, by turns Aus-
trian, French, and Spanish ? How fuse these va-
rious metals in the fire of revolution ? It was first
necessary to make Florence, Turin, Milan, and Ve-
nice provincial cities, and afterwards necessary to
impose upon all those two great burdens of monar-
chies—the conscription and the millairds. This was
not all. The principal elements of this unity has
been obtained. Rome would have to be wrested
from Catholicity, Venice from Austria, from Eu-
rope. It was impossible to found unity without ar-
riving at these two formidable questions of Rome
and Venice. M. Thiers then traced out the events
which had arisen since Italy had been in the travail
of unity, and pointed out her tormented existence,
tormenting that of France. Not being able to wrest
Venice from the Austrian arms, it was desired to
obtain Rome. The speaker proceeded to discuss that
part of the September convention destined, it was
said, to reconcile Rome with Italy. Ile did not be-
believe a reconciliation possible between Italy, who
desired Rome, and the Pope, who could not aban-
don it."

The sitting was here suspended for a fewminutes.
Upon the members re-assembling—
" M. Thiers resumed his speech,entering upon:the
Roman question. The danger and the salvation
of the Pope are, he said, in the hands of France,
who in the eyes of the world is responsible far
his destiny. Is there an interest for the greatness
of France, an interest for her principles, is there
even a right of the Romans to 'which we here do
violence ? M. Thiers proceeded to discuss these
three points. He showed first that all nations make
it a duty to protect their national faith, and wish,
independent of the fact, to have that appearance.
Now it is France that now has the patronage of the
Catholics in the world. There could be no interest
of greatness for France in afflicting the Catholics of
the whole world. Are her principles concerned in
the abandonment of the Head of the Church ? M.
Thiers regretted the publication of the Encyclical ;
but he feared it was the friends of liberty who, by
disquieting the extreme Catholic party, the Ultra-
rnontanes, and urging it to exasperation, had
made the Encyclical. (Laughter.) It is said that
extremes meet : they do more ; they generate.
(Fresh laughter.) If, just at present, the great
and glorious Church of France, the Gallican Church,
inclines towards Ultramontanism, it is because it
sees its Chief threatened, and rallies round him. If
it be wished to recall it to its ancient traditions, it is
necessary to give it security. It will then again
become what it has always been—united and inde-
pendent. Is it then true that the Catholic Church
is in fact contrary to the human mind ? Have we
not the liberators of human thought in modern
times, Descartes, Bossuet, Pascal, Kepler, and
Newton—were not these at the same time illustrious
thinkers, and good Catholics ? The Catholic Church
only debars those from thinking who are not fit to
think. It is in this cradle of the Church that the
human mind has passed its infancy and part of its
riper age. No doubt it is not wished to destroy the
Catholic Church, but it is desired to effect a revo-
lution in its Government. Would such arevolution
be at least favourable to our principles ? But the
central unity of the Church once destroyed, its
debris would be conveyed into the different Catholic
countries of the world, there to form national
churches. It would be a strange solution of the
Roman question for the friends of liberty to see the
translation of the religious authority into each of
the capitals of Europe. As far as regards France,
M. Thiers expressed his opinion that Notre Dame
was too near the Tuileries. He deprecated seeing
the same hand wield the sceptre of religion and of
political power. He did not forget the fate of the
Eastern Church, when Constantine, in order to
resist the Barbarians, transported to Constantinople
the material force of the Roman Empire. The
moral force remained at Rome, and the Roman
Church, representative of that force, became the
Western Empire, and continues to sway the souls
of men. The Church has always preserved her
spiritual independence, while the Greek Church j

which remained with the Emperors of the East,
and believed it became independent in separating
from Rome, was enslaved. None would submit
to its yoke, and it became divid3l into so
many different separate churches. The reli-
gious sovereignty thus placed near the political
sovereignty is servitude. It is said, but the Church
will be free in a free State. M. Thiers considered
that this theory would lead to a spectacle of this
kind. On Sunday would be seen in every church
the Mayor in his official seat, the priest in the pulpit,
and beneath him a Commissary of Police, taking
notes. With regard to the question of the right of
the Romans M. Thiers recognised that the greater
part of the Roman population were not favourable
to the Papal Government. But a people in revolu-
tion should never be taken at their word. That
would too greatly embarrass them. The right which
M. Thiers fully concedes to the Romans is the right
of being well governed. In demanding reform they
are therefore justified. But the right of modifying
their Government or of giving themselves another
master is another thing.

" M. Emile 011ivier, replying to the speech of M.
Thiers, said that when a cause honest and believed
to be just, was powerfully attacked, it was a duty to
defend it without regarding the inequality of strength
in the contest. He fully concurredin.what M. Thiers
had, with admirable talent, just remarked with regard
to the respect due to religious creeds. But the Con-
vention of September 15 was in no respect a matter
of faith ; it only raised political and free question
open to all opinions. ' The Convention,' M. 011ivier
continued, has two distinct effects. It defines and
consolidates Italian unity, and modifies the attitude
of the French, Italian, and Papal Governments,
by introducing a new element into a question
long since debated upon.' The hon. member ex-
amined this act under its double aspect, and then,
replying to the censures of M. Thiers, he said that
the great element of union existing in Italy was
the hatred of foreigners, which the child learnt
from its mother, and which every Italian might
perceive in the great poets of his country, and in
the annals of her history. 'Did not France herself
include in her strong unity Alsatians, Proven-
cians, Bretons, Languedocians, and the Gallic race
mixed with the Teutonic ? The unity of Italy,'
continued the speaker, ' would, it is said, be an ob-
stacle to the alliance of France with Austria. But
are the destinies of France bound up with this affi-
ance ? Our most illustrious Kings opposed the
power of Austria. The misfortunes of the First
Empire may have arisen with him who placed the
hand of France within that of Austria. Between
Austria and France comes the principle of nationali-
ties—Hungary and Venetia who suffer and protest.
Touching the Roman question, M. 011ivier said
that, before the Convention of September, it was
placed between Mazzini, Garibaldi, and the Uni-
tarians, demanding Rome by the right of Italy, and
the school of Count Cavour, awaiting the com-
plicity of circumstances to go to Rome. So long I
as the question remained under these conditions
any arrangement was impossible. To Italian
necessity could be opposed Catholic necessity.
The Convention of the 15th of September, con-
tinued M. 011ivier, has replaced the sovereignty
of the Pope under the normal conditions of all other
sovereignties, in affording it all the guarantees which
it required for endurance. Will this Convention
save, or will it destroy the temporal Government of
the Pope ? Its destiny will depend upon itself. M.
Thiers acknowledges that the Roman people have
the right to ask to be well governed. Have they
the necessary liberties that the eminent orator so
earnestly claims for France ? Religion and liberty
are flames, neither of which can be extinguished.
Let-them blend and there will be a new light at
which the world will rejoice. (Applause.)
"M. Rouher, Minister of State, who then rose,
said it was for the Chamber to decide whether the
debate should be continued to-day, or whether he
should not address them until Saturday."
The Chamber agreed to the adjournment of the
debate until Saturday. The sitting terminated at
5 45 p.m.

She Kingdom of Greece.

ATHENS, April 6.

This day is the great national festival of the
Greeks, for they date the commencement of the
War of Independence from the raising of the Cross
against the Crescent on the 6th of April, 1821. A
bright sun gives Athens a joyous aspect. Everybody
wears a happy look, and I believe that the rest of
Europe cannot show a more prosperous looking po-
pulation than is now streaming out of town to wit-
ness a review of the National Guard.

The King attended a Te Deum in the Metropolitan
Church, and was received with great enthusiasm, for
the rumours of revolutionary plots which prevailed
during the last month have lendered the loyalty of
the Athenians unusually demonstrative.

The Cabinet of Mr. Koamoundouros is now com-
plete, and presents a strong front to its opponents.
The Prime Minister, who holds the Finance Depart-
ment with the Presidency of the Council, is a man
of ability and experience. He has held every port-
folio in turn, except those of War and Marine, and
he has served with every party, under King Otho,
during the interregnum, and under King George.
The Minister next in experience and influence is
Mr. Krestenites, who has held the portfolio of the
Interior, of Justice, and of Finance, under King
Otho, and who is now Minister of Justice. Three
of the Ministers enter the Cabinet for the first time.
Hadgi Anarghyros, the Minister of the Interior,
occupies at this moment the most important office in
Greece, for it is his duty to direct the conduct of the
Central Administration during the critical interval
until the general election on the 26th of May. Public
opinion gives him credit for honesty and impartiality.
Sir Peter Brailas, of Corfu, is Minister for Foreign
Affairs, and Mr. Lombardos, of Zante, Minister of
Religion and Public Instruction. Both are men of
ability, but in their political principles and opinions
they are as opposite as Caesar and Cato. M. Bou-
douros moves to the Marine, and Colonel Karnales
retains the War-office.

This Ministry is so heterogeneous that it will
probably do little more than keep things quiet until
the general election decides whether Greece is to have
a policy as well as a Ministry. The political statistics
of Greece are curious. Imagine England with 300
ex-Cabinet Ministers, which is about the proportion
in Greece. At the expulsion of King Otho there
were 84 ex-Ministers. The interregnum added 22
to the number, and the reign of King George has
already given the country 12 new men as Cabinet
Ministers. So that there are now about 118 ready
for service, and of these upwards of 25 have held
the portfolio of Foreign Affairs. Greece cannot with
any justice be called a poor country, for this is surely
l'embarras des richesses, the very plague of wealth.
During the reign of King Otho a large sum of
money was placed at the disposal of the Greek
Government for the purpose of building a Museum
of Antiquities, but Otho could never make up his
mind to adopt a site, decide on a plan, or take an
interest in Greek art. had the Government done
its duty, the museum would have been finished like
the university. Last week there was a step in
advance. The eminence which conceals Athens
from travellers who enter the city by the Piraeus
road, and through which the railway has been cut,
was selected as the site, and workmen commenced
digging the foundation. This work brought a change
in the antiquarian administration. The work was
stopped, and it was announced that the museum was
to be built at the opposite side of the town, in the
midst of the fields which extend southward from the
Palace garden. There has fortunately been another
change, and while I am writing I hear that an admi-
rable site for the museum has been found at last,
uniting a central position, with ample space for a
collection as large 'as that in the British Museum,
and the best approaches on every side. The ground is
now occupied by the Royal stables, which his
Majesty would willingly remove to a spot where he
can communicate through the Palace garden. Mr.
Lombardos, after all these long delays and frequent
changes, will have the honour of settling a vexed
question in a way to secure general approbation.
Athens possesses many interesting remains of an-
cient sculpture, and has the means of forming a
museum better adapted for illustrating the history
of Greek art by monuments of the highest excellence
chronologically arranged than any now in existence.

Yet at present a Greek who wishes to study the pro-
gress of Hellenic sculpture in one collection can
hardly do better than visit the museum of casts at
Bonn, formed by Professor Welcker, for many
.valuable monuments of art at Athens are only hid-
den treasures. Greece does not want men able to
arrange her collection, and who by their learning
would attract students from every other country.
Mr. Rhangabes, who is a corresponding member of
the Academy of inscriptions and belles lettres, is well
known by his collection of Greek inscriptions and
many topographical dissertations. Messrs. Pappa-
dopoulous, Koumanoudes, Rousopoulous, and
Eustratiades have rendered acknowledged services
to the learned world by their published contribu-
tions to archaiology and the history of Hellenic art.
On this day it is the duty of every Philhellne to
compare the state of Greece at present with its con-
dition when he first visited its ruined towns and de-
serted villages. Athens on the 6th of April, 1826,
presented a very different aspect from that which it
offers on the 6th of April, 1865, and the affair of
Greece becomes veiled in a brilliant peplos of bright
reminiscences and hopes.
By a singular coincidence, , which I make no
attempt to explain, brigandage suddenly ceased as
soon as the day for the general election was fixed.
In Livadea its euthanasia was accelerated by the
activity of the peasantry, who, seeing the central
authorities were in earnest, aided the troops in shoot-
ing down the whole band of Loulou. The peasantry
have a well-founded objection to the capture of
brigands, who always reappear with an amnesty
worse than they were before they formed an ac-
quaintance with a jury, very much like our ticket-
of -leave men. With all the shortcomings of their
rulers, the Greeks enjoy many advantages. They
have a good system of public instruction and of
judicial procedure, a zeal for knowledge which is
not surpassed in any other people, and freedom of
the press, which experience is teaching them to use
without abusing. The Albanian peasantry of
Attica readily adopted improvements, and they have
purchased carts wherever the state of the roads
rendered the use of carts profitable. Currants,
madder, and cotton are cultivated with great in-
dustry and considerable skill. Various commercial
companies have been formed, and Greek capital is
employed with success in improving the native
wines. But the Government, the system of taxation,
the tenure of land, and the want of roads throw
great impediments in the way of agricultural im-
provements and the employment of capital in land.
Yet at this time upwards of 20 large houses are in
the course of construction at Athens ; the emery
mines of Naxos, the sulphur mines of Milos, and
resmelting the, scoria of the silver mines of Attica
are all carried on with activity.

There is a saving grace in representative institu-
tions which, if not nullified by foreign interference,
will ultimately put down brigandage and insure the
execution of every practical project of improvement
deliberately ratified by public opinion. So long,
therefore, as there is a certainty that representative
institutions are not endangered by the machinations
of their enemies at the approaching general "eleotion
there is no reason to despair of the future. Delay in
the course of improvement is very vexatious to indi-
viduals ; but, as far as the nation is concerned, it
may be advantageous. King Otho would have placed
the museum in some unapproachable position. He
would never, like King George, have removed his
stables from the centre of the city for the public
convenience. The life of nations is long, and the
problem in treating a people that has not opened its
eyes after k long sleep is to strengthen it without
intoxicating it. It would not do for all men now-a-
days to breakfast on chines of beef and strong ale
like maids of honour in the 16th century.