The Sun.
London, England, 1862-03-04 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-YESTERDAY.

BIRTHS, DEATHS, AND REGISTRATION (IRE-

LAND) BILL.
Mr. HENNESSY said that he had a motion on the
paper in reference to the Births, Deaths, and Marriages
Registration (Ireland) Bill, to the effect that, on the mo-
tion for the second reading of that bill, that it should
be read a second time that day six months. He pro-
posed to alter that amendment-by a motion affirming that
it was not expedient to employ the police as registrars
of births, deaths, and marriages in Irel and.
TROOPS SERVING IN INDIA.

Mr. H. BAILLIE drew the attention of the house- to the
want of system which prevailed in relieving her Majesty's
troops serving in India, and contended that an alteration
was required.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY moved the followlng resolu-
tion :—That it is the opinion of this house that all moneys
required on account of the raising, training, &c„ officers
and men for service in India, and all other expenses con-
nected therewith, shall be voted in this house in a separate
estimate ; and that all such moneys shall be repaid into
the British Exchequer by the Indian Government.
Sir G C. LEWIS said, as this question had no bearing
whatever on the estimates before the house, the course re-
commended by the hon. baronet would n, ,t be advisable.
Col. SYKES observed that in the year 1862-3 there were
75,899 men in India, and 7,629 belonging to the same regi-
ments in depot here, making 36,600 men. A capitation of
£lO upon that number would yield a sum of £865,000, and
allowing £3 10s. for the non-effective members of the ser-
vice, this would give a sum of £1,300,000 transferred from
India annually, and put into the hands of the people of this
country. He thought the hon. baronet W 9,8 right in saying
that the house ought to have these accounts separately.
If 12,000 men could do so much in 1857, when there were
100,000 opposed to them—when Oude was in rebellion, and
so many native princes were adverse—could it be possible,
now that the whole of India was at their feet, and nothing
to oppose them, that they required 83,000 troops ? He
appealed to common sense whether that could be necessary?
Of the European troops sent oat, 7 ter cent. died and 3 per
cent. were disabled; and the people of England had a right
to inquire whether it was necessary
.to spend so much of the
young blood of this country in India. (Hear.) The fact
was they had lost that confidence in themselves whieh they
possessed when India was under the rule of the East India
Company. It was the expense occasioned by this large
number of troops that necessitated an import duty of 10 per
cent, on the cotton goods sent from this country to India,
and the imposition of an income tax in India. His hon.
friend the member for Inverness was mistaken in supposing
the massacres in India would not have taken place if they
had had a larger force in India at the time of the mutiny,
for these massacres took place in out-of-the-way localities,
which would not have been adequately protected even if
they had had 200,000 troops in the country, if the hon.
baronet divided the house he would vote with him.

Mr. AYRTON said that the two armies having been
amalgamated he thought the Government would have ex-
posed themselves to serious animadversion if they had pre-
sented separate accounts. The sum required was now pro-.
seated in one view, and it was not necessary to search the
different accounts of India and of this country to ascertain
the exact state of them. The present system was simple
and economical, and gave a larger measure of control to the
house over the estimates.

Mr. HENLEY did not think the present mode of pre-
senting the accounts was at all satisfactory. Were the
people of this country to pay £15,300,000, or were they to
pay £985,000 less. If they were to pay the former, them
the people of this country, including the constituents of the
hon. member for the Tower Hamlets, would have to pay
Id. in the pound more income tax. If they were to pay
£15,300,000 in the first instance, and were to get back
£985,000 from the Indian revenue, then the estimate ought
to De laid before the house in a more detailed shape. The
language used was somewhat curious, for it began by, "it
is estimated," and it went on to say, that the money would
be required for certain purposes, including " the raising and
training of troops, &c." That "et cetera" was a very ac-
commodating way of ending what began with an "it is esti-
mated." (Laughter.) They were asked to vote 1,000,000
above what was supposed to be necessary for the service of
the country. The principle on which that was done might
be a fair one, but it did not appear on the face of the esti-
mate. The amalgamation had nothing to do with it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was
quite true, as stated by his right hon. friend, that the
arrangement which had been made between this country
and India was capable of being considered apart from the
amalgamation of the two armies, and might have been
adopted when the two armies were distinct. There existed
formerly two heads of expenditure incurred by Great
Britain on account of India for which this country had a
claim to reimbursement—namely, for effective and non-
effective services. For the non-effective services the Indian
Government were to pay £60.000. But the House of Com-
mons never heard of the charge, and never heard of the
reimbursement. They never heard of the charge, because
the whole of the non-effective services were put into a
lump, and there was no power of distinguishing in detail
how much was charged to any one service and how much
to another. The reimbursement was never heard of, be-
cause the .£60,000 was not presented as a deduction from
the estima /..
Mr. HENLEY—It used to be.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—CertainIy
never, so far as he had any cognisance of the finances of the
country. That £60,000 was never heard of by the House of
Commons, because it was put into the expenditure, and
was taken credit for by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
when he presented the budget to the house as a portion of
the miscellaneous revenue of the country. Now, in lieu of
the £60,000 there would be a payment varying according
to the number of men serving from time to time in India ;
therefore, it was impossible to do more than had been done
on the paper, to estimate approximately the amount forth-
coming under this head. Instead of lumping the sum,
they took a fixed sum per man according to the number
of men serving from time to time in India. They took £3
10s. per man in the non-effective service, instead of £60,000.
With regard to the effective service, the old principle was
this, that the War Department and the Indian Govern-
ment settled the matter together without the accounts
being presented to this house. The War Department
was reimbursed the exact amount which the Indian
depots had cost the country in the first instance. In lieu
of that system it was recommended, and the recommenda-
tion was in accordance with the soundest principles of finan-
cia: administration, that the whole charges should be voted
by the iiouse, that the actual cost of them should be esti-
mated as nearly as possible, and upon the foundation of that
estimate that any repayment should be made from the In-
dian revenue. ilbving estimated the cost of the non-effec-
tive service, after careftt; examination, at £3 10s. per man,
it was considered that a sun: of £lO per man would be a
proper amount to fix in lieu of the effective service.
These charges for the effective
es
atqtsobasis repay-
would be estimated, for reimbursement,a.pernoeffectivemuseebrvic
head on the army serving in India, and on th.
eiscmelaldae-
An apprehension had be
intom en repay-
ment
the
English wouldb made
E xch;
obquutert,haenred
fpoarymnape:rtte
been
feoxptu the,emb
ea.
lest
neous revenue.
the peopleofpweernireangoeinntgadtvoanbeceputot
lunnddiaervtilitiez
necessity of be
respect to these military charges. On the contrary, the
thisin
arrangement would operate in such a manner that country
under
prac-
tically this country would be under no advance. Hereto-
fore it had been under a serious advance, on account of the
effective charges, but now the present settlement would
enable them to make the repayments at very short inter-
vals, he believed, from month to month, and there would
I be brought back into the British Exchequer as near as pos-
sible within the financial year, under the head of miscella-
neous
ienite of
revenue, the precise sum that had been
tpeaid
get out
or
this arrangement on the financial statement under the head or army expenditure. '
Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would be r
average
to swell the
amount of charge, because he would include the cost of the
effective service connected with the Indian army, which
the s
in the estimates before. to the
ways and means, they would lnd themselves, because the
ek
had never appeared As
from the Indian Government
d come ba
payments wouluick as the money went
Department.
to Sir S. NoRTHCOTE,
practically as q out from the War
In answer
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that, of course, in an estimate of'
as s
fully (-^nst the ch.adregreedwbasymaacdoemomnitatne
e average.com pos
composed
'The p subjectafrtly
o
f
gentl me' from the India-office and partly of gentlemen
from the War-office. They agreed that the £lO per head
was a fair average charge, .
though extreme cases might
occur.

Sir E. COLEBROOKE hoped the
Government would
give the house some explanation of the data for arriving at
the £lO per head, which they seemed to have Oemselves
required.

of Mr.
1854,
1. H Y
tEhNatLaEsump ooifnzt e6do
,00u0 to, by reference
paid u under
dt
eo trhe
the
testimatesh Cleo.
o
IV. into the British Exchequer by the East India Com-
pany, and at a time when the right hon. gentleman was
Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Sir C. WOOD said the old practice was that the moment
an English regiment a as put on the Indian establishment,
the whole expense connected with that regiment was trans-
ferred as a charge on the Indian revenue. All the charges,
with respect to it were paid in this country by the War-
office, and were repaid by the Indian finances. The evil of
that arrangement was that the War-office had no interest
in keeping down the expenses; and the Indian Govern-
ment, ment, who were charged with the payment,
measur
adop-
tion of the present rate per head as a temporaryould greatly
of keeping it down. The committee recommenhdaeddnthe -
until further inquiry was made, and saird
many
years
past
simplify the accounts. The average
late years, and
to the troops had increased oftheesyeenpraßan
Present, £lO per head
the committee thought that, for
crth
had been £8 per head, but the additioifis? advantages given
in In la fo.r the effective service,
were fair charges.
on the numbers mustered
and £3los. for the non-e
bather the £lO per head would
Sir F. SMITH doubted w
the effective service.
be found sufficient for
Mr. DEEDES observed that as late as 1660 there was
balance
of £200,000 due by the Indian Government un
teredifective services,