The Sun.
London, England, 1865-03-28 00:00:00

THE sUN, thriDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 28, 1865.

Commons and Open Spaces round the

Metropolis,

The committee appointed to inquire into the best
means of preserving for the public use the forests,
commons, and open spaces in and around the me-
tropolis met again yesterday, Mr. Locke in the chair.
Mr. Foster, the steward of the manor of Wimble-
don, was further examined as to the effect of the
provisions of the bill now before Parliament. In
reply to questions by Mr. Tollemache, he stated that
any alteration in the proposed plan must rest with
the trustees appointed to carryout Lord Spencer's
intentions. They could have no object in clearing
away the gorse for the purpose of increasing the
pasturage, inasmuch as they would derive no benefit
from obtaining a larger revenue than was necessary
for keeping up the park.
By Mr. Hanbury—There was a strong feeling in
the neighbourhood against the scheme, but a large
number of the inhabitants were favourable to it.

By Mr. Baillie—He believed that Earl Spencer
had been in the habit of cutting green turf, and was
not aware that it was illegal to do so. If he had
occupied the right for a certain number of years he
might obtain it by prescription. A portion of the
common was omitted from the bill, and that portion
would remain unaffected by the bill. That was quite
independent of the portion which Earl Spencer was
willing to dedicate to the use of the public.
By Mr. Peacocke—Some small enclosures had
taken place on the common. The homage jury had
not been consulted on these matters. Earl Spencer's
assent was obtained to the National Rifle Associa-

tion using a part of the common. He did not autho-
rise any inclosure of any kind, neither did he make
any objection.
By Mr. Cox—Had never known any presentment
against persons for trespassing on Wimbledon-com-
mon. Had seen persons playing at cricket from
time to time. Had never seen a notice board to pre-

vent persons from trespassing on the common.
Cautions had been issued warning persons not to
deposit rubbish or cut furze.
By Mr. Lefevre--Supposing freeholders to have
enjoyed rights and turned their cattle on the com-
mon from time immemorial, would not that be a
prescriptive right?—The freeholder claiming that'
right would have to prove the prescription. He was
not aware that the public had any rights over the
common. He did not regard it in the light of a vil-
lage green. Believed very few people had been
turned out on the common. Was not aware that
the Homage Jury had consented to the enclosure of
any parts of the manors of Earl Spencer.
By Mr. Kinnaird—The common was used by
schools at Wimbledon, Putney, and other places for
purposes of recreation. An inclosure would not
necessarily interfere with any rights of way which
at present existed. Had seen meetings of the Na-
tional Rifle Association on the common.
By Mr. Locke King—The scheme had been mate-
rially altered since it was first brought forward.
Had no objection to place the amended scheme
before the committee, and would undertake to do so.
Earl Spencer, recalled, stated in reply to ques-
tions by Mr. Cox, that he had seen persons playing
at cricket on a portion of the plan marked Wimble-
don-green. He had seen quoit playing at the place
used by the Scottish Rifles. Had not seen any
notice posted warning persons against trespassing
on the common. Had never given orders for the
issue of such notices, or any instructions respecting
trespassing. The gipsies had been interfered with
on account of their horses trespassing, but they had
not been proceeded against personally for trespassing.
The Hon. E. B. Wrottesley, examined by Mr.
Baillie—Resided at Putney at present. Formerly
resided at Barnes. The feeling of the inhabitants
of Putney is unanimous against Earl Spencer's ap-
portionment of Wimbledon-common. During the
last 30 years the commons at Barnes and Putney
had been much frequented by gipsies. A few years
ago steps were taken to put an end to the annoy-
ance, and two keepers had been appointed—me by
Earl Spencer and the other by the inhabitants of
Barnes. These two keepers had been sufficient to
exclude the gipsies. Earl Spencer'skeeper had juris-
diction over Putney-common, and the other com-
mon was looked after by the keeper employed by

the inhabitants of Barnes.
By Mr. Locke King—There was no difficulty in
keeping the gipsies off the common without the
erection of a fence. Two men and the expenditure
of about £lOO a year upon Wimbledon would be
quite sufficient for that purpose.
By Mr. Cox—Never heard of any proceeding
being instituted against any person for sitting down
or sleeping upon the common, or. of anyperson being
warned against doing so.
Lord Elcho, M.P., called and examined by Lord
Bury—As chairman of the National Rifle Association
had obtained leave from Earl Spencer to erect butts
on Wimbledon-common. It rested on an annual
agreement, and they were bound by that agreement
if Earl Spencer insisted on levelling thebutts. It was
very essential in a national point of view that the as-
sociation should have the opportunity of erecting
butts on Wimbledon-common. He might state
frankly that Wimbledon-common was not only the
only place near London, but the only place in Great
Britain, where the National Rifle Association could
hold their meetings. In the year 1860 it was con-
sidered desirable to form that association on the
principle of the agricultural associations, and to
vary the places of holding the meetings. But that
idea was not carried out, and Epsom, Woolwich
marshes, and various other localities were inspected,
but Wimbledon-common was considered the most
eligible place, 'and Earl Spencer was quite ready to
do everything in his power to facilitate the move-
ment. During the five years of the existence of the
National Rifle Association they had expended for
drainage and other purposes onWimbledon-common
£4,082 3s. ld. That expenditure had made the
common infinitely better as a place of recreation.
In many places it was marshy and swampy, and the
roads which had been constructed were of the greatest
public service. Looking at the voluntary movement
as a national measure, he considered the national
Rifle ILssociation not only desirable and necessary,
but absolutely essential, and believed that if it ceased
to exist the county asssociations would fall off. In
his opinion, if they lost Wimbledon-common they
would altogether lose the National Rifle Association.
It must meet near London, and no place near the
metropolis was so suitable as Wimbledon-common.
The public had considerable rights on the common,
and as a part of the public the volunteers were
mainly interested in maintaining it as a place
of recreation. He believed that Earl Spencer
proposed to continue the enjoyment under trus-
tees. He (Lord Elcho) had no reason to disap-
prove of the bill ; but as chairman of the associa-
tion it had never been brought before him.
An impression had gone abroad that the bill was
brought in with the concurrence and privity of the
National Rifle Association, but that was not the
case, and they had nothing to do with the bill. The
Rifle Association were admitted to the use of the
common as a portion of the public. As one of the
public hz, had played at golf on the common, and be-
lieved that the change contemplated would have the
effect of improving it. As one of the public he
should object to a high enclosure. He had urged
Earl Spencer to keep up the wild character of the
I that t
place. As regarded fencing, a rough split post and
il
injßuryetthhee
c common.hairm an
fence,was required, o rev eannt
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convenience of the —r
ilfite was
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cerhe a
should be enclosed ; they would prefer it in its pre-
sent state, with this exception—that if power was
given to trustees to recognise them and go there for
rifle purposes, they would acquire a position which
they did not at present hold. A high fence would
be beneficial so far to the Rifle Association that it
would save them £5OO a year ; and, as chairman of
the association, he should say erect that fence, but
as an individual he did not wish to have such a
fence, and would rather see the association left
where they now were. A post and rail fence would
be of no benefit to the Rifle Association.
By Mr. Baillie—Did not think it a nuisance to
the people of Wimbledon to have permanent butts
on the common. Such a sacrifice for the public
good was a very small one.
The committee then adjourned.

Proposed Exp:

Le North Pole.

Last evening, at a meeting of the Royal Geographical
Society, held at Burlington-house, the practicability of
reaching the North Pole, taking either Spitzbergen or
Smith's Sound, as the base of operations, was elaborately
discussed before a very numerous audience. Sir Roderick
Murchison, the President of the society, occupied the chair,
and there were present, among others, the Count de Paris,
the Duke of Wellington, the Earl of Sheffield, the Earl of
Harrowby, Lord Strangford, Admiral Sir George Bach, Sir
Andrew Scott Waugh, Sir Edward Belcher, Mr. Alderman
Gibbons, Captain Maury, Sir Charles Nicholson, Mr. John
Crawfurd, Admiral Ommaney, Admiral Collinson, Captain
Galton, Captain Richards (hydrographer to the Admiralty).
Dr. Rae, and M. Vigfusson (an Icelander).
The PRESIDENT, in opening the proceedings, said,—
Gentlemen, our main object on the present occasion is to
obtain a fair and full discussion of the relative value of the
two projects for reaching the North Poie which have been
brought under the consideration of geographers and other
men of science—the one by Captain Sherard Osborn, the
other by Dr. Petermann. To Captain Osborn we have
expressed our deep obligations for his spirited and able en-
deavour to revive the desire felt by all true geographers to
complete their acquaintance with the North Polar regions,
in which the scientific branch of the navy has been so
distinguished. The plan which ho propounded was, as
you know, to proceed in ships to Smith's Sound, at the head
of Baffin's Bay, and, leaving them there in safety, to ex-
plore northwards along the west coast of Greenland in
sledges and boats. This plan, in addition to the various
good scientific results to be obtained, has the further
merit of calming the fears of the timid, who dread a repe-
tition of the sad catastrophe of Franklin, by showing
them that there is no analogy between his expedition
and that by which it is now contemplated to reach the
North Pole. The former was an effort to force a passage
with ships through land-locked icy channels ; that of
Sherard Osborn is to avoid all such danger by advancing in
sledges from ships placed in safe stations ; it being a fact
that amid the many sledging parties who traversed thou-
sands of miles upon the ice in search of Franklin not a life
was lost. The other project, or that which has been long
advocated by the accomplished geographer Dr. Petermann,
is to try to reach the North Pole via Spitzbergen, getting
through the pack ice to the north of that island in a steam
vessel. His first letter on this subject was partially read at
a former meeting, and was published at length in weekly
newspapers ; but when it came under our consideration the
time of the assembly was so much occupied in discussing
the natural history questions which the ethnologicalmemoir
of Mr. Markham elicited that naval officers and other Arctic
explorers who were present were debarred from delivering
their opinions on the relative merits of the two plans. Since
then Dr. Petermann has addressed a second letter to me,
which will first be read, and then the naval officers are ex-
pected to express their opinions as to enable the Councils
of the Royal Geographical Society and of the other scien-
tific bodies who advocate a North Polar expeditionto adopt
that which they consider the best scheme for the accom-
plishment of this great object. Now, although I know that
there are differences of opinion among the Arctic officers
who are present as to which of the two plans offers the
best line of research, let me assure this meeting that these
gallant men are united in the belief that if a well fitted ex-
pedition be sent out success would crown the effort. They
well know that the accumulations of floating ice, which
in old times were considered impassable barriers, havebeen
traversed by ordinary sailing vessels, and that in the
memorable Antarctic voyage of James Ross packs of ice
several hundreds miles in width were passed through,
the intrepid navigator reaching an open ocean beyond,
The question then to be debated this evening is whether
the sledging expedition to the north of Smith Sound and
along the west coast of Greenland, or the effort to traverse
the pack ice to the north of Spitzbergen, or the most
northern point reached by Sir Edward Parry, is to be pre-
ferred, it being recollected that in the days of the last-
mentioned great navigator steam power had not been applied
to ships. Happily we have still among us distinguished
Arctic explorers who have been both in the seas of Spitz-
bergen and those of Baffin's Bay, and I am sure that we
shall obtain from them such a hearty concurrence in our
scheme as will, with the appeal of the other men of science,
induce the British Government to fit out a well-found
North Polar expedition, which, in advancing several
branches of science, will sustain that spirit of adventure
which has always been the mainstay of our maritime great-
ness. (Cheers.)
The letter of Dr. Petermann was read by the Secretary.
His project, as described by the President, is to endeavour
to reach the North Pole by way of Spitzbergen by pene-
trating the pack ice to the north of that island in a steam-
vessel. The writer adduced reasons, founded on the voyage
of Sir John Ross in the Antarctic regions, for believing that
it was easy to got through pack ice, and that masses of ico
might be found in one particular locality one year, and in a
different one in another. He referred to instances where
immense masses had been cut through and clear and open
seas found beyond. Even in the highest latitudes, he re-
marked, ico masses occupied but a small portion of the sea;
that they were of.an ever changing, drifting character, and
that they offered no insurmountable difficulty to a well
organised expedition.
The PRESIDENT observed that the logic usod in Dr. Peter-
mann's letter was extremely good, drawn as it was from the
knowledge he had acquired as to the approach to the South
Pole, which was admitted to be much more difficult than
that to the North Pole.
Sir G. BACK said Dr. Petermann's plausible and very in-
teresting paper had much to recommend it, easy though it
was to pursue a theory in a comfortable room in Berlin. It
might be that there was a current which set to the north
between Nova Zembla and Spitzbergen ; that Spitzbergen
was within 2,400 miles of England; and that it was acces-
sible from early summer to late autumn ; that it had capa-
cious harbours, and abounded in reindeer, in Arctic hares,
and in millions of birds ; but no man could pretend to say
or foretel how far the best equipped steamer, commanded
by the most able Arctic officer, could penetrate in that
sea through such openings as the current of winds
might produce through masses of closely wedged ico. Dr.
Petermann said the effect of an Arctic sea was to break up
the ice at the edge of the pack, but he (Sir G. Bach) abso-
lutely dissented from the idea that an expedition could
make progress to the North Pole from the west of Spitz-
bergen. In 1818 he accompanied his friends, Sir J. Frank-
lin and Admiral Beechey, in the very first Polar expedition
in this century from England. They tried incessantly
night and day to force their way to the North; the ships,
the Dorothea and Trent, were greatly damaged, and the
men exhausted, but with their utmost efforts they were
never able to get beyond 80 deg. 30m. Then, again, the
ice there was not like the lee westward ; some of it was
five miles in diameter, much of it from 40 to 42 feet in
thickness, and only two or three feet above the surface.
Still they went on persevering ; one of the ships, the Do-
rothea, was crushed and scarcely seaworthy, but she was
patched up, and after trying ineffectually for three months
to penetrate to the north in one direction they were com-
pelled most reluctantly to abandon the attempt. They
then went along the ice from Spitzbergen towards Green-
land, going along the edge of the packed ice until they
were arrestedby impenetrable masses off the coast of Green-
land, and in all that space there was not an opening of half
a mile. That being so, and the season being far advanced
towards the end of September, they were compelled to re-
linquish the enterprise and return to England. Dr. Scoresby,
the captain of a whaler, however, often told him that ho at
one period got as far as 82 degrees north, but that never
occurred a second time with him. (Hear, hear.) With re-
spcict to Captain Osborn's plan he should say that if his two
vessels should be fortunate enough to find an open season
—that was, open weather with the ice so loose that they
could sail among it and take up their station in Smith's
Sound—and if in the following winter the ice should be
found closely wedged and immovably fixed, he saw no
reason why a party properly equipped, and not finding any
very large spaces of open water, should not succeed in get-
ting very near to the Pole, if not to tho Pole. (Hear.)
Sir EDWARD BELCHER knew pe,rsonally what sledge
travelling was, and he had seen the difficulty of meeting
open water when he could not launch his boat in
it. He saw great difficulty in carrying a vessel round
to Smith's Channel. They knew on several occasions Go-
vernment expeditions had failed in that, and he believed
the practicability of going up Davis's Straits and of getting
up to Smith's Channel, in the hope next year of going
thence further north, was very doubtful. With regard to
the expedition to which Sir George Bach had alluded, the
question was, did they go the right way ? He
(air Edward Belcher) thought they kept too much to-
wards Greenland, and that they wero seeking for whaling
ground, and not to advance the cause of science. In that
they made a great mistake. Whales liked warm water, and
they all kept towards the Equator, and he had no doubt
that if Scoresby had pursued a course to the eastward of
Spitzbergen he would have drifted round the Pole. As re-
garded the sledge system, he much doubted its feasibility.
They would have a long, weary, and uncertain voyage
in order to reach the opening of Smith's Sound. Granted
that they secured the vessels the first year, and that sledg-
ing operations were duly prepared, if the sea was open in
May, as ho believed it would be, he would ask if their
sledges were to be boat sledges, fit to pass over open water.
If so the attempt was wilder than that of Parry, and both
Richards and Osborn well knew the difficulty attending
any such operation. He enjoyed the friendship of the late
Sir James Ross, and they frequently conversed on travel-
ling by boat sledges. Sir James was accustomed to say
that no one could comprehend the severe labour imposed
on the men when those boats got into snow. They
were to be unloaded, and even then they could scarcely be
extricated. On some occasions, when the snow had melted,
they were detained for hours, not advancing a mile in
two days. He (Sir E. Belcher) also met Baron Wrangel
and Mathiewskin, his lieutenant, at Petropaulovski in 1826,
after their unsuccessful exploration by dogs, and their
simple observation, "What could we do when we met with
water ?" was just what he would put to the sledge pro-
jectors. On the other hand, their vessels would be able to
finish and report, if not successful, in ono season ; recruit
and start afresh, as Ross did, in the second ; and in ac-
cordance with experience gained the Government could
add to the force or reduce it, as events warranted.
Admiral Councilor.; said the question of an open Polar
Sea had its origin in the remarkable expedition of Baron
Wrangel from the coast of Asia, and it received confirma-

tion from subsequent explorations ; but were those hot open
hales instead of expansive seas ? At Gateshead Sound his
(Admiral Collinson's) sledge sank, and he was obliged to
make a great detour. There they were convinced that no
open sea was in sight. There was a general opinion that
because ice wasted away there must be a vacuity at the back
of it, but he contended there was no foundation for such a
theory. The progress of the ship Fox as she approached
the sea increased daily, but the Resolute, which was further
back in the " pack," made no progress at all. It should also
be remembered that during winter, while ice was making,
it occupied a larger space in the water than it was made ;
and therefore they had that remarkable phenomenon, a
downward drift without any sea left behind it. With
respect to the comparison between the Polar and the An-
tarctic seas he contended that they had no similarity what-
ever, for in the one there was the most open expansion, and
the other was pent up by the continents. They had got
through the barrier of ice which Ross penetrated by
great energy to the southward, when he reached
Spitzbergen ; but when they went beyond that they
would meet with what he encountered in latitude 78

—an icy wall. The exploration had better be taken
by Smiths's Sound than by Spitzbergen, for in that
case they would have an opportunity of 'getting nearer to
the Pole by sea ; but if they wanted to make progress t4the
Polar sea they must hold by the land. (Cheers.)
Admiral FITZROY, who was received with cheers, said he
had no pretensions to the character of an Arctic navigator,
but from the time when Parry, Sabine, and others of that
day began their explorations he had carefully noted the
progress made from year to year for a period of 40 years.
The result of his observations on the subject had been that
a great deal too much stress had been laid proportionately
upon attempts to make passages by the north-west, and
that we had not given stifficient attention or consideration
to what was done by the early Dutch, English, and Russian
navigators, who in the latter period of the 15th and in the
16th and 17th centuries made very successful attempts to
reach the north and eastward, and also very near the North
Pole. In 1818 Barrington and Beaufoy, Fellows of the Royal
Society, gave very credible accounts of Dutch ships reaching
within two or threo degrees of the North Pole, and of
finding there an open sea of comparatively warm tempera-
ture, and a swell of the sea indicating that there was no
barrier within moderate distance. The object of the
Dutch in those days was to pass round what they consi-
dered the shortest track to the East Indies by the Arctic
Seas, and it was in making those voyages that some of their
ships went so far north that the sea was partly explored near
the Pole. Indeed there was an instance of a ship having
gone two degrees beyond the Polo. Captain Maury, who
had made the Antarctic regions one of the subjects of his
' particular study, mentioned the curious fact of a barometer
falling lower and lower as they got nearer the South Pole,
showing a state of the atmosphere near the Southern Pole
very different from that in equatorial regions connected
with the movement of ice away from those regions. The
simple result of Captain Maury's considerations, and of his
(Admiral Fitzroy's) much humbler observations, was
that there was open water at and near the North Pole, and
a great deal of open water, with also a large extent of con-

tinental land near the South Pole; and we should be want-
ing in our duty as a nation if we wilfully wasted the ener-
gies of those young men who were anxious and willing to
go and explore those interesting regions, important as they
were for commercial as well as scientific reasons, and if we
did not support the efforts of the Royal Geographical So-
ciety, and follow the lead of their President, whom they all
honoured and esteemed. (Cherrs.)
The PRESIDENT asked if Admiral Fitzroy was in favour
of the Spitzbergen or the Smith's Sound route?
Admiral FITZROY replied he was entirely in favour of
Spitzbergen, in the first instance, as a base of operations,
and then from Spitzbergen, at the most convenient period,
to the North and round the North. (Cheers.)

The meeting was briefly addressed by Admiral Omma-
ney, Capt. Maury, and Capt. Richards, the discussion, at
tho suggestfon of the President, being eventually adjourned,
and tho company separating at 11 .o'clock.