The Sun.
London, England, 1865-05-12 00:00:00

THE SIM, LONDON; FRIDAY EVENING, MAX 12, 1865.

possible dissatisfaction in a district such as he had in-
dicated ?
Mr. W. E. FORSTER was not aware of the existence
of the agricultural districts spoken of by the hon. member.
Many years ago there was a strong feeling among the
poorer classes on this subject, but they had now come to
consider that the change proposed by this bill would be
for their benefit. He denied that relief was given in
Bradford in aid of wages, and pointed out that in that
' torn it was deemed undesirable to send paupers to the
workhouse unless they were sick and houseless, or were
supposed to be lazy people who would not work. A great
recommendation of the bill was that it would remove the
temptation from the agricultural interest to keep their
labourers at a distance from their employments. The
medical report which had now been laid upon the table
more than bore out the statement of the President of the
Poor Law Board when moving the second reading of the
bill, as to the evils of the system of close and open parishes.
He did not deny that of late years a great many landed
proprietors had behaved in the most praiseworthy manner
in the expenditure of vast sums of money upon the erection
of labourers' cottages ; but, after all, that was the excep-
tional case, and they had but little in favour of the general
state of the country. The truth was, it was the interest of
employers to drive the labourers off their property, and
therefore they would infallibly exercise the rights which
the law accorded to them. To his mind, however, the pro-
per principle was that those who employed the labourer
should be at the burden throughout of relieving his neces-
sities ; and a chief reason why he supported this bill was,
that he hoped it would be taken as a precedent, and that
measures would be taken to put an end to the horrible state
of things existing in London. On that account especially
ho objected to the bill being referred to a select committee ;
for any one must feel that a motion to refer it to a select
committee only emanated from a desire to insure the over-
throw of the general principle which had been accepted by
the house. They had not done much in that Parliament ;
still he hoped that they would be able to go before their
constituents and say that, in their expiring moments, they
had remedied one of the greatest practical evils under which
the country laboured. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUBBARD, while admitting that close parishes were
an anomaly, and that they inflicted hardships upon the
poor, could not forget, at the same time, that they were not
the result of yesterday's action. On that account he felt
the details of the bill could not be hurriedly adopted. He
should be prepared to support the motion of the hon. mem-
ber for Whitby (Mr. Thompson), as it would be competent
for a select committee to entertain the important subject of
exemptions and other matters bearing upon this measure,
so as to enable the Poor Law Board, at some future period,
to introduce a bill which would definitively settle the whole
question.
Mr. HIBBERT said there were many instances in
which agricultural parishes would be decidedly relieved
by the operation of this bill, and in his opinion the farm-
ing interest would not be affected so much by this measure
as some hon. gentlemen imagined. He hoped the house
would go into committee upon the bill, which would do
away with some of the abuses of the present system, and,
by giving a freer circulation to labour, would add to the
happiness of the people, For those reasons he should vote
against the motion for referring it to a select committee.
Mr. KNIGHT said the history of the English poor-law
showed that no poor-law could work successfully upon any
area except the area of natural charity—by which he meant,
the area in which the poor and the rich were thoroughly
acquainted with each other, and in which the money was
paid by those persons to whom, without a poor-law, the
poor would turn naturally for relief in the hour of their
need. (Hear.) At different periods the area of relief had
been extended in this country, but experience had soon
shown the necessity of again reducing it within moderate
limits. In Ireland, too, the enormous electoral divisions,
after a trial of some years, had to be subdivided. The next
instance he had to mention was the Scotch poor-law, which
in the lowland parishes,where they were small, had worked
fairly ; but in the highland districts, where the union
system prevailed, there was great distress amongst the in-
habitants. Norwich Union, which consisted of 43 parishes,
all of which had been united for the purpose of rating in
the time of Queen Anne, might be cited as a practical ob-
jection to the bill, as it was the most highly rated and
miserable one in England. Mr. A'Beckett, one of the com-
missioners who had made an inquiry into the working of
the poor-law in Norwich, stated that nothing short of a
national rate would relieve the pressure which existed
there. He had not the slightest doubt if there had been
43 parochial boards instead of one union board that no
such pressure would have been felt. Mr. Charles Buller's
commission in 1847 had pointed out the London parishes
as presenting the proper rule of rating. But what was the
fact ? Those same London parishes had become the haunt
of the poorest and most wretched people that ever existed in
England. Some years ago a great outcry had been raised
in consequence of the wretchedness that had been brought
to light in the Andover Union, but there was not a weekly
London paper which could not give them 20 times more
horrors than had ever been imputed to Andover. After
the sitting of that committee, Mr. Buller sent eight poor law
inspectors into the country to see whether the close parish
system existed or not. They were sent into 14 different
counties, and the result was printed. He had spent several
months in working out the results, which he had placed
before the house in a private pamphlet in 1854. As a con-
sequence Mr. Baines, in bringing forward his motion for

union rating, gave up the close parish case. The most
curious thing in his inquiry was, that the rating to the
property between 1815 and 1843 in the parishes which wero
said to have been injured by having population driven into
them by the close parishes, had increased immensely,while
the close parishes had increased very little indeed. In 40
open parishes the increase had been 56 per cent., while in
the corresponding close parishes the increase had been only
5 per cent. The cause for this was obvious, for assuming
the old division of agricultural produce to be correct that
one-third went to the labourers, that proportion must have
been spent in those open parishes. The next committee,
in which the open and close parish systems were considered,
was by the Irremovable Poor Committee. But no witness
was allowed to make unfounded assertions about close
parishes without being compelled to give the name of the
parish. The pith of the evidence before that committee,
the hon. member went on to say, was that in all but two
cases the number of houses had increased between 1801 and
1851. As they were now talking about having another
committee, he thought it was but right that the house should
know that all attempts which had been made to prove the
close parish system a grievance had been perfectly futile
and vague. It was quite clear that two-thirds of the rate-
payers of England would be injured by this bill. It was
quite clear that the ratepayers as a body would not be
benefited by it, and he thought it was equally clear that the
bill would be of no advantage to the poor. The onlypersons
who would benefit by it were the officials in the house. They
were aware that they held their position by precarious
tenure. The sister establishment, the Board of Health
which intended to lord it over the towns the same as the
Poor Law Board over parishes, had broken down. (" Oh'
oh," and "Divide.") The hon. member, who had been,
interrupted throughout by murmurs and cries of "Divide,'
continued to address the house, but his remarks were
drowned by the opposition which he had to encounter.
Sir R. KNIGHTLEY moved the adjournment of the
debate.

Mr. VILLIERS objected to the adjournment. It had
been said that speeches were made to gain time, and he
thought that seemed to be the fact.
Mr. HENLEY had listened to the debate for seven hours,
but as the Government would not exert itself to keep
order in the house, he approved of the course taken by the
hon. baronet.

Sir G. GREY said it was quite clear the house would
not listen to the hon. gentleman.
Sir W. MILES was one of those who usually objected
to an adjournment, but when the hon. gentleman who had
just addressed the house had met with such great interrup-
tion, that his speech was considerably shortened (laughter),
he thought the hon. baronet who moved the adjournment
was perfectly right.
The house then divided—
For the adjournment BO
Against it

Majority —94
The motion for the adjournment was therefore lost.

Mr. LYGON, protesting against the unseemly inter-
ruptions to which his hon. colleague (Mr. Knight) had
been subjected in the course of his speech, moved the ad-
journment of the house.
Mr. LONG seconded the motion.

Sir G. GREY begged to remind tho hon. member for
Worcestershire that the interruptions to which he referred
emanated quite as much from his own side of the house as
from the Ministerial benches. (Loud cries of " No, no,"
from the Opposition benches.)
Lord J. MANNERS declared the interruptions to which
the hon. member (Mr. Knight) had been subjected were
the most unseemly he had almost ever witnessed in that
house.

Sir R. KNIGHTLEY, in reply to the taunt of the Home
Secretary, begged to state that the interruptions from the
Opposition benches had entirely emanated from a member
of the Ministerial party opposite, who had deliberately left
his seat and crossed over to the benches on the opposite
side of the house. (Cries of " Name, name.") It was the
noble lord the member for the Wick boroughs (Lord Bury.)
Mr. VILLIERS said it was, of course, quite useless to
think of proceeding with the discussion at that hour (it
was a quarter to 12), and therefore he should consent to
the adjournment of the debate.

Mr. DISRAELI said it was a matter of surprise to him
that a scene of the kind could have arisen upon such an
occasion. At the same time, he could not forbear from
observing that had the leader of the house risen to order at
an early moment and appealed to gentlemen on both sides
of the house, such a scene need not have occurred. He
must in the strongest terms repudiate the charge that the
attempt to interpose any interruption to the discussion had
originated on the Opposition benches.
The motion for the adjournment of the house was then
withdrawn, and the debate stood adjourned until Monday
next.

Prisons (Scotland) Act Amendment Bill was passed
through committee.
CUSTOMS AND INLAND REVENUE Bills,
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of tAe XX-
CHEQTJER, this bill was road a second time.

PILE AND HARBOUR ORDERS CONFIRMATION

BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
PILOTAGE ORDER CONFIRMATION ACT.
This bill was read a second time.
LOCOMOTIVES ON ROADS BILL.

This bill as amended was considered, and several new
clauses were added.
THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL.

Mr. DARBY GRIFFITH obtained leave to bring in a
bill to enable the Postmaster-General to sit in the House of
Commons.

The house adjourned at twenty minutes past twelve
o'clock.

Naval and Military Intelligence.

VALETTA, May 6.—The Tyrian, gunboat, left Malta on
the 3d inst. for Tunis, to relieve the Surprise 4, Commander
G. Tryon, which will proceed to Gibraltar, to take the
place of the Racoon, 22, Capt. Count Gleichen, ordered to
England. It is expected that the Surprise will soon proceed
to England, that vessel having been 3 years and 11 months
in commission. The Cossack, 20, Capt. W. R. Rolland, left
on the same day for Tripoli, conveying thither Consul-
General Flay and his family. Intelligence of the death of
President Lincoln having been received here the flags on all
the public buildings and foreign Consulates were yesterday
displayed half-mast, which sign of mourning will continue
to be shown for three days.

The Duke of Somerset, as First Lord of the Admiralty,
held a levee yesterday afternoon at the Admiralty, White-
hall. There were present Admiral Sir J. Scott, Rear-Ad-
miral Hall, Capt. G. A. C. Brookes, Capt. J. Clark Soady,
Capt. E. D. 0. D. A. Aplin, Capt. N.. Salmon, Col. G. Lam-
brick, R.M., Commander W. H. Anderson, Commander A.
P. H. Helby, Commander L. Brine, Commander G. Stanley
Bosanquet, Commander Corry, Lieut.-Col. H. G. Mitford,
R.M., Lieut. G. Stratton, Lieut. the Hon. R. Hare, Lieut.
W. F. Lee, and Lieut. A. Rodney Blane.
Her Majesty's ship Lizard, Lieut.-Commander Challis,
having undergone considerable repairs and alterations, is
now ready for service, and is expected shortly to proceedto
the coast of Scotland for the protection of the fisheries.

The Bth company of Royal Engineers, numbering 103
non-commissioned officers and men, has proceeded from
head-quarters, Chatham, to the Government rifle range at
Milton, for the purpose of going through the annual course
of musketry instruction, prior to leaving Chatham for
Wdolwich to relieve the 9th company, which is under
orders to embark for Canada, to be employed in the con-
struction of the defences on the frontier of that country.
Yesterday detachments of time-expired men and conva-
lescent troops belonging to the 19th, 35th, 77th, and 80th
Regiments, who landed at Portsmouth from the troopship
Middlesex, from Calcutta, arrived at Chatham and joined
their respective depots at that garrison. A few insane
soldiers who came home with the troops were sent to the
lunatic hospital at Fort Pitt, Rochester.
The following appointments were made yesterday at the
Admiralty :—Capt. J. E. Commerell, to the Royal Adelaide,
additional, for service in the Scorpion ; Lieut. Spencer R.
Hemstey, to the Duke of Wellington; Henry Y. Slader,
Master, additional, to the Cumberland, for the Challenger;
E. C. Smyth, Master, additional, to the Indus, for the
Scorpion ; Augustus J. Burniston, Master, to the
Terrible ; F.Townsend, Master, additional, to the Cumber-
land, for the Scout ; and W. S. R. Gow, Master's-assistant,
to the Sphinx.

The undermentioned gentlemen have been appointed to
naval cadetships :—John F. J. Ryan and Archibald J. Far-
quharson.

Manchester Chamber of Commerce.

At a quarterly meeting of the chamber, held yesterday,
Mr. M. Ross, the president, in the chair,
Mr. THOMAS WRIGLEY complained of the terms of a re-
solution arrived at by the board of directors, expressing
objection to "the proposal of the papermakers to obtain,
by any means, direct or indirect, a protective duty on their
manufactures." The papermakers did not ask for any pro-
tection, direct or indirect, on their manufacture. The paper
trade was more ancient than the cotton trade, and more
useful (oh, and laughter), for we could do without cottcn,
and it would be difficult to do without paper; but it was a
singular thing that he had never been able to obtain a full
and calm discussion of the case of the papermakers in this
chamber. Three or four years ago, when, at the request of
another member of the chamber, he attended a meeting for
the purpose of giving explanations, a member of the board
asked him, " Do you, Mr. Wrigley, tell us that the Germans
can make paper cheaper and send it into this country cheaper
than the English papermaker can ?" His reply was, " Un-
doubtedly the Germans can." He was then told it was no
use going on with the discussion—"that answer was con-
clusive as to the propriety of admitting foreign paper into
this country." Previous to 1860 the paper trade was sub-
ject to an excise duty of lid. per lb., but the import duty
was 2jd. per lb. The reason of that difference was to be
found in the peculiar situation of the trade with regard to
the material employed. The manufacture of paper was
based upon a refuse. While the raw material of every
other trade was producible at the will of the producer, in

accordance with his interest, because he could make a
profit on it ; on the other hand, the papermaker's material
was produced contrary to the will of the producer, against
his interest, and he was therefore constantly trying
to lessen the quantity. No price the papermakers could
offer would ever induce the producer to give them a pound
more. No reduction in the price that might happen would
cause the producer to give them a pound less. For many
years past the consumption had exceeded the supply of ma-
terial. After making up all the cotton and linen waste and
rags in the country, the papermakers could get no more,
except by going abroad for rags. But they were met with
either a prohibition or an export dutyin almost every coun-
try of Europe. Adam Smith said an export duty was ex-
actly the same in its effect as an import duty ; the buyer of
the article paid for it ; and an idea would be conveyed of
the bur len upon the paper trade by the fact that the duties
ranged from LO to £9 a ton. Taking the lowest duty—X3,

that was 33 per cent. on a rag worth £l5 a ton, or 50 per
cent. on a rag worth £lO a ton in the continental country
where it was purchased. It took 14 to 11 tons of rags to
make a ton of paper, and of the cost of paper 50 per cent.
was for the material ; therefore, by using a material upon
which there was a 50 per cent. tax, our paper was made at
25 per cent. more cost than the German, Belgian, Dutch,
or Austrian manufacturer was obliged to pay. True,the tax
was only paid on some 10,000 tons, while we imported
some 25,000 tons a year; but it was very clearly under-
stood during the Corn Law discussion that "the price of
the deficiency determines the price of the whole ;" that an
import tax upon the corn spread itself over the whole pro-
duction of corn within the country; so that £1 levied at
the port became £1 levied on every quarter of corn through-
out the kingdom. (Hear, hear.) In the same year £5 levied
an the rag coming from abroad was levied upon every ton
of rage of the same quality in this country. It was to
remedy this evil that in times past a differential duty was
placed on the import of foreign paper. To show that this
and no other was the object of the duty he read quotations
from the Parliamentary papers bearing upon the reduction
of the duty from 3d. to 20. in 1853, when Mr. Gladstone,
being Chancellor of the Exchequer, employed Mr. John
Wood, then chairman of the Board of Excise, and the
late Mr. James Wilson, Secretary to the Treasury, upon
a review of the whole of the Customs' duties. There were
two different kinds of protection. One was protection
against robbery, as was given by a policeman in the street;
and another was the protection that enabled a man to pos-
sess himself of something that he took from the public.
The protection of the farmer was a wrong protection, be-
cause he gave nothing for it ; ho taxed the public for his
own benefit, but that was not like the papermakers' protec-
tion previous to 1860, for when id. pez lb. was levied on all
foreign paper, he paid more than an equivalent for it in the
export duty on his material, and he not only paid it to
foreigners, but to the very manufacturers of cotton waste
in the mills of Lancashire, who thus received the full
benefit of this "protection." The papermakers wanted only
fair play—the same description of free trade that was en-
joyed by cotton spinners, woollen and silk manufacturers,
and other manufacturers in this country. It might be sup-
posed that the difference of value between this country and
foreign countries would in time be equalised ; but the fact
was that if the paper trade to-day were cut down to one
half what it is, and one pound of material did not come from
abroad, the trade would labour under precisely the same
difficulty as now, for it would be working a material facti-
tiously enhanced in value to the extent of the duties levied
abroad, for the simple reason that our ports were opened
for the export of the material, and America was a much
larger buyer of rags than this country. As long as this
state of things existed the prico of material in England
must be just the price that the American paid for it abroad.
Thus, there was no gleam of hope in the prospect, how-
ever remote, so long as these three elements existed, of
free export of material from this country, export duty
levied upon foreign rags, and free import of paper into this
country. It was sheer nonsense to suppose that any sub-
stitute for rags could be obtained; we were obtaining
quantities of other material that would supplement them,
but nothing could be better material than rags, and rags
were the cheapest, because made without cost to anybody.
In consequence of the ports being open the English and
foreign markets were chained together, so that they were
like two cisterns connectedby a pipe—whatever affected the
level of the one affected the level of the other in the same
degree. The prico of our rags might be lowered by the
importation of other materials, but then the price of rags
abroad would fall precisely in the same degree, and the
British papermaker would stand in just the same relation
to his foreign competitor. To give an idea of the enor-
mous increase of importations of paper he quoted the num-
ber of cwts. imported in 1859 (before the alteration of the
law), 14,164 cwt. ; in 1860, 40,160 cwt. ; in 1861, 89,247
cwt. ; in 1862, 186,761 cwt. ; in 1863, 192,683 cwt. ; in 1864,
242,400 cwt. After some further remarks from Mr. Wrig-
ley, relative to the proposals to be brought before Parlia-
ment this session, but with the particulars of which he said
ho would not trouble the Chamber,
Mr. HUGH MASON replied to the arguments of Mr. Wrig-
ley ; and

There being no motion before the meeting, the subject
dropped.

HEALTH OP LONDON,

(From the Registrar-General's Weekly Return.)

In the week that ended on Saturday, May 6, the
births in London and ten other large towns of the
United Kingdom were 4,044, the deaths 2,626.
The annual rate of mortality in the week in those
11 towns was 24 per 1,000 persons living less than
the rate that prevailed in the previous week. Hull
appears for the first time.
In London the births of 1,006 boys, and 1,068
gils, in all 2,074 children, were registered in the
week. In the corresponding weeks of ten years
1855-64 the average number, corrected for increase
of population, was 2,024.
The deaths in London in the same period were
1,236. The average number for the eighteenth
week in ten years (corrected) is 1,317. The deaths
in the present return are less by 81 than the esti-
mated number.

215 deaths occurred from zymotic diseases ; of
these 19 were caused by smallpox, 9 by measles, 24
by scarlatina, 4 by diphtheria, 55 by whooping
cough, and 43 by typhus. There is a general de-
cline of zymotic disease.
A carman, aged 56 years, died at St. Thomas's
Hospital from injuries caused by a cart passing over
him. The son of a carman, aged 6 years, died at 2,
Underwood-street, Shoreditch, from tetanus super-
vening on injury to his face caused by falling from
a wagonette.

The rate of mortality last week was 21 per 1,000
in London, 27 in Edinburgh, and 25 in Dublin ;
34 in Liverpool, 28 in Manchester, 21 in Salford,
23 in Birmingham, 27 in Leeds, 20 in Bristol, 21
in Hull, and 30 in Glasgow. The rate in Vienna
was 42 per 1,000 during the week ending the 22d
ult., when the temperature was 4 deg. Fahrenheit
lower than in the same week in London, where the
rate was 26 per 1,000.
In Liverpool the births were 381, the deaths 306 ;
in Manchester the births 244, the deaths 190 ; in
Salford the births 72, the deaths 44 ; in Birming-
ham the births 225, the deaths 145 ; in Leeds the
births 183, the deaths 118 ; in Bristol the births
112, the deaths 62 ; in Hull the births 79, the
deaths 42 ; in Edinburgh the births 118, the deaths
89 ; in Glasgow, the births 378, the deaths 243 ;
and in Dublin the births 178, the deaths 151. There
were 447 deaths in Vienna during the week ending
the 22d ult.

At the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, the mean
height of the barometer in the week was 29.760 in.
The barometrical reading increased from 29.53 in. on
Friday to 29.90 in. at the end of the week. The
mean temperature of the air in the week was 54.1
deg., which is 3.5 deg. above the average of the
same week in 50 years (as determined by Mr.
Glaisher). The highest day temperature was 74
deg., on Friday. The lowest night temperature
was 314 deg., on Monday. The entire range of
temperature in the week was therefore 42.6 deg.
The mean of the highest temperatures of the waters
of the Thames was 58.7 deg. ; that of the lowest
was 57.3 deg. The difference between the mean
dew point temperature and air temperature was
9.8 deg. The mean degree of humidity of the air
was 70, complete saturation being represented by
100. The general direction of the wind was S.W.
There is a marked improvement in the London
waters since their analysis has been resumed. In
100.0001 b. of water the solid matter was 33.791 b. in
February, 32.161 b. in March, and 28.891 b. in April;
the decrease in organic and other volatile matter
was most striking ; it was 2.721 b., 2.261 b., and
1.421 b. in the three months. The oxidizable matter
in April was only the half of what it was in
February.