The Sun.
London, England, 1862-05-15 00:00:00

INI PE RIAL PA R LIA ME NT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
The SPEAKER took the chair shortly after twelve o'clock
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Lords' amendments to the Berwick-upon-Tweed
Harbour Bill were considered and agreed to.
The Bolton and Blackburn Road Bill, and the Shrews-
bury and Hereford
Railway Bill were considered and
I 0
ordered to be read a third time.
T ITONS.
Petitions were presentedPE by Mr. s theron Estcourt, from
Norwich, against the Church Rates Bill ' • by Mr. Hadfield,
Hadfield
from Sheffield, against certain clauses in the Savings
Banks Bill ; by Mr. Hope, from the Synod of Lothian and
Tweedale against the Scotch Education Bill; and by several
members, in favour of the Church Rates A bolitionßill,
CHURCH RATES ABOLITION BILL.
Sir J. TRELAWNY moved the second reading of this
bill. In one respect he might feel discouraged in respect of
this measure from the repeated defeats he had sustained,
but, as on last occasion, the defeat was in a great measure
the act and deed of the supporters of the bill, in consequence
of their having been led away with the idea of a compromise
on the subject, that discouragement was greatly lessened.
There was scarcely an hon. member in that house who did not
consider that some measure was necessary on the subject, and
he believed that the opposition he would meet with on the
present occasion would in effect be that the mode he pro-
posed to regulate the matter was not the proper one. The
object of hon. members on the Opposition side of the house
seemed to be to get rid of his bill by holding out hopes of
the settlement of the question by compromise; but when
this mode of settlement had been attempted, it had been
already seen what insurmountable difficulties rose up in
their path. He considered that Dissenters were right in
objecting to the form of compromise which had been pro •
posed, as he must say that toleration was not so prevalent
in the present day as some people would have them
believe. The other night he heard an hon. gentleman get up
and ask the Foreign Minister what action ha intended to take
as regarded the imprisoned Protestants in Spain, Of course
he could say nothing on the subject at the time, but ho
must say he felt indignant, and if he were Spanish Minis-
ter he should writea very authoritative letter to the Foreign
Minister on the subject, and tell him to see that toleration
was exercised in his own country before he found fault with
the mode of the exercise of it in others. (Cheers and
laughter.) It was said that without church rates there
would be no security for the restoration of churches ; but
he considered that church rates were the dry rot of the
Church, and were church rates abolished to-morrow he
had no doubt but that a perfectly efficient system for the
restoration of churches would be devised by the heritors of
the p trish. By the system of church rates the church-
wardens were the parties responsible for the restoration and
repairs of the church, and they needed not to go far to see
the disgraceful manner in which they performed their
duties in that respect, converting some of the finest speci-
mens of their old architecture into unseemly and uncomfort-
able structures. The fact was, he considered church rates as
altogether unsuited to the present age and time. What
would be said by philosophers 200 years hence in respect of
this system of church rates ? What would be said by
the Wesleys, Darwins, Macaulays, or, greater still,
by the Buckles, respecting this system ? Why,
would they not characterise it as a political mon-
strosity, some strange specimen of a fox with wings,
which might have been presumed to exist in a former
age. He would not detain the house, as the subject
had been discussed so often, and all the arguments for and
against the abolition of the impost were well known. He
must, however, say that let the supporters of these rates
declaim as they might, hon. members on the Opposition
side of the house could not upset the Government, and they
could not hold the Government unless they consented to
the abolition of church rates. He therefore moved that
the bill be read a second time.
Mr. C. BUXTON seconded the motion, and stated that
he did so in order that some compromise might he arrived
at on the subject. He considered that the tendency of the
public mind was at present directed towards a compromise,
and though it might be some time before that was come to,
still he had no doubt that a scheme would ultimately be
devised which would satisfy all parties. As a means to
that compromise, he considered that the penalty at present
imposed for the refusal of church rates should be abolished.
That would do away with all practical grievance in the
case, and would reduce all objections to church rates to a
theoretical character.
Mr. S. ESTCOURT said he had understood that the
hon. member who had just sat down rose for the purpose of
seconding the resolution, but his speech would lead one to
believe that such was not the case. (Hear, hear.) That,
however, was but one instance—and he had no doubt they
would hear many others in the course of the debate—of the
impossibility of the measure proposed by the hon. baronet.
The hon. baronet knew his opinions on the question
very well, as they were expressed by him when the bill
was before the house last session. These opinions
were exactly the same this year, but he could not help say-
ing that while 23 bills had been introduced on this subject
since it was, first broached in the house, neither the house
nor the Government had proceeded with these in the same
creditable manner they had done in respect of other matters
which bad come before them. No doubt several of these
schemes were mere crotchets, but still none of them did get
that consideration which the house were in the habit of giv-
ing to other subjects. In most of the schemes which had
been prepared by the other side of the house a distinc-
tion was drawn between Churchmen and Dissenters,
and rights were given to one party which were with-
held from the other. All the schemes were mere
expedients, which seemed to get rid of the main diffi-
culty, but none of them stood upon a well-defined
constitutional principle. He considered, therefore,
that to deal properly with this question they must deal
with it on a constitutional principle. He would, therefore,
move as an amendment—" That it is unjust and inexpe-
dient to abolish the ancient customary right, exercised from
time immemorial by the ratepayers of every parish in
England, to raise by rate amongst themselves the sums re-
quired for the repair of their church, until some other pro-
vision shall have been made by Parliament for the dis-
charge of those obligations, to which, by custom or statute,
the churchwardens; on the part of the parish, are liable."
Lord R. MONTAGUE seconded the amendment.
Sir C. LEWIS said he had not intended to take part in
the debate, but after the remarks of the right hon. gentle-
man who had moved this amendment be would say a few
words, and he must say that, after the history of the case
given by the right hon. gentleman, when he stated that 23
bills had been introduced, and that useless discussions in-
numerable had taken place on these, he considered that one
might almost despair of introducing any measure at the
present day which would satisfactorily dispose of the case.
It was admitted on all hands that the existing law admitted
of amendment, and how were they to arrive at such amend-
ment ? On that point he must say that he despaired of any
such amendment being come to while the present law was
in existence, and he should therefore, as he had done on
former occasions, support the second reading of the bill now
before the house. In respect of the proposal which he had
himself made on the subject, he had made it as a modifica-
tion of a measure introduced into the House of Lords by
the Archbishop of Cteeterbury, and the report of a commit.
tee, of which the Earl of Derby was a member. The object
of that measure, and the recommendation committee,
of that
_from the payment of church
was to free any one
rates who alleged themselves to be Dissenters, and as that
was considered a system of ticketing Dissenters as it was
called, his proposal was in effect that none but those who
were in the habit of attending the parish church should be
called upon to pay. He considered the amendments of the
right hon. gentleman to be wrong in point of fact,and in
point of law. As to the right of church rates being a right
so, for several
exercised from time immemorial, that was not
ourts of law
parishes had refused to exercise it, and c
so
Besides
had said they could not be compelled to do
the Braintree
that, the House of Lords had decided
unless tjo-
case, that a valid sale could not belnia
de he
(Hear, hear.) ma
The
rity of the vestry consented t, .
ake a rate with t h
ou t e
churchwardens therefore could not m
estry, and the law giving
consent of a majority of the v
in
them no power to make such rate they
could not be
said
the right t odo 5O, He
terms of the amendment to have re
considered the amendment, there
theperfectlyreadingof hill. (Cheers.)
Mr. MACDONOUGH said if there was any
her Majesty's G subject
more than another on whicha Government
ought to have introduced
with measure,
this
was one, for it
was so intimately connected the welfare of the Church
of which the gracious Sovereign was the head. He consi-
dered the measure before the house as one of the most
illogical compositions ever presented to it. It was illogical
becaus ninegued from particulars to generals, for was it
not argin that way to say that because four h
dred parishes were opposed to church-rates,fi
therefore, in-
they ought to be abolished in all the 12,000. The rig.
hen. gentleman the Secretary for War had said that church
rates were not of immemorial usage but the right hon.
gentleman was much at fault with '
time of Canute church-rates had been put in practice, and
had recourse to for the support of the Church. The
right to do so was a custom, and sanctioned by the com-
mon law of England, and it would be improper to abolish
it without providing a substitute, and not follow the advice
of the right hon. gentleman the Secretary at War and pull
down the building without providing for the means of
building it up. (Cheers.)
Mr. J. R. MILLS supported the measure. At the pre •
sent time, were all the churches in connection with the
Established Church full, there would be still five millions
of people without any church accommodation. No doubt,
the Church of England said, you can build churches for
yourselves; but then there remained the grievance that
though they did so, they would be compelled to pay for the
maintenance of the parish churches, into which they could
not enter. The amendment placed on the table would not
advance the settlement of the question one whit. The only
way to settle it would be to submit a substantial and rea-
sonable proposition for a compromise, but as that had not
been done, he should support the second reading of the
measure. (Hear, hear.)
Col. BARTTELOT said that in the large towns, such
as Birmingham, Manchester, and Leeds, church rates had
been nominally abolished, for they were not sought to be
enforced ; while in the smaller towns the animosities against
them were year by year diminishing; and in the rural dis-
tricts, where the people were all married in the paris/t
church and buried in the churchyard, they did not o 1 i'°
to pay them, and in these circumstances he thought."'
ht
time had arrived when a compromise on the subject g
be come to. opposite
Mr. BRIGHT said he believed hon. gentlemeit._
were acting in this matter not as religious Chure"" f=elo.'n".l.
as political Churchmen. They had by some al
hon, gentle-
verted this into a party question. The right
and disowned
man the member for Wiltshire had repudiate n
this sub•
every measure which had been introdue ii)
lfea
ject by himself or any one else, because, cl) they Were
not founded on constitutional principles. But how could
the amendment proposed by the right hon. gentleman place
the question on constitutional prip
• eiples. For the last 28
)yeara they had been discussing this question on the