The Sun.
London, England, 1801-11-28 00:00:00

POOR.

Mr. NEWBQLT moved the Order of the My
for a, 'Committee on the Bill relatiVe to relieving
Poor Persons, not wearing Badges.
On the Question for the 'SPEAKER leaving the

Sir ITEM. ELFORD-sairl, that lie Wished to say
very few words before the House went into a
Committee, "which he hoped Would be the last time
be should have occasion to call their attention to
the present subject, because the alteration pioposed
by his Hon..and Learned Friend in the provisions
of the Bill, would, h 1 his mind, do away -the ofr_
jeOions he had heretofore .urged. Some cOmpli-
ments, he said, had been made -to the Hon: Gentle-
man %vim brought for Ward :this pleasure, on the
purity of his motives : if he had not paid hirn that
tribute, it was because he supposed it impossible
any one could attribute to him any but honourable
motives for his condu&t. He: tritsted,litAvcrer,
that the House and the Public were inclined to view,
with the same candour,' the motives of those who
had not opposed,. but 'promoted a discussion of the
Question. It would be recollec=ted that they had,
from the hegginning, admitted, that an evil exist_
ed, to which it was necessary a remedy should be
applied, and the only question was, what the _na-
ture, extent, and duration of that remedy ought ..to
be ? Another doubt had also been proposed,.
whe-
ther it was a wise and, prudent step totally to do
away -a regulation of very long standing, which had
been enacted by our predecessors with a view of in-
dueing habits of industry and economy in .the lower
plass of People. He particplarly called the atten.
lion of the House to
.thise circumstances, because
some opinions had been thrown out,i the tendency
of-which was to insinuate that those who provoked
thd discussion of the measure, had. not that strong
feeling for the distresses of the. Poor, and that full
sense of the loyalty and patience with which they
had condu6lo.l themselves, during the very severe
trials which they had lately experienced ;—opinions-
such as these from some quarters 'might be reasOna.
bly expe4ed, and therefore be heard without much
emotion ; nut from another quarter they could- not
be listened to, for various reasons; without a-consi::
derable degree of mortification- and regret. The
House would naturally conclude, that he meant to
aliude to what had fallen from his,Right Hon. Fijei-a4
on a former occasion, when the encomiums which
were lavished on the exemplary conduCt of the Peo_
vie during the late pressure, might lead to an in_
terence that those who differed from him had not
the same kind of feelings with himself on that sub.
ied. He was sure it was quite unnecessary to
state, that he knew the bonourable.and just feelings
of his Right Hon. Vriend too well, to suppose .that
he designed to make any such charges ; but as that
kind of encomium did not appear necessarily to,axise
from any thing that had preceded it„ and as it could
not be supposed that any light or groundless opi-
nions could be delivered from that quarter, the in-
ference he had alluded to would most probably be
made, which would tend to weaken the influence and
authority of those Hon. Members who had taken
the same part with himself, in their capacity of
Magistrates, and thus take off that guard of -the
Safety and tranquillity of the Country, which was
derived from that 'influence and authority. ' He re-
peated, that nothing could be, further from his mind
than .to attribute such intentions to his Right Min..
Friend ; but he thought- it necessary to say these
few words,
.in order )to do away the impression
which what he had referred to might otherwise
have made on the public mind. He wished also to
add, that the discussion of this subject had been Pro-
du6live of that fin which it. had been instituted--a
pretty, considerable inves4ation of the subject, and
a very material alteration in the provisions of the
Bill, to which, as it would now stand, he -was ready
to give his entire'assent,

The House then resolved itself into aCommittee,

Mr. BERKELEY objeOed to any innovation
in the Poor Laws, conceiving that the whole Sys-
tem ought to be submitted to the consideration of a
committee; and thoroughly investigated, in order
that such alterations might be made as should be
thought necessary. So many alterations had, he
said, been lately made in the Poor Laws, that it
Could scarcely he known what the Poor Laws were.
He had no obje6lion, he said, to assist in the re-
formation of the Poor Laws, a labour which was at
present highly necessary, as the Landed Interest
was sapped-by. then. The Poor Rates, which were
in the year I'm, 6s:• in the pogna, were nowt he
said, from '9s.. to' tos..; an increase, which he .
thought,. sliewed the necessity of sortie investiga.
ion of that System under which it had taken
V4c;.

..sat , wouid-nOt what hard been advanced
by 'tfie Hon,..Gentleinan (Mr. 11E lk“ that it
Might he *per to examine iinii,..investigate-, the
whole System of the Poor Laws;. and make such al.
terations as :might appea.r necessary,' but he was
• sure that HoUse would ‘not.a4 worthy of itself 4 it
withheld the administering of a remedy for a griev-•
mice proved to exists and Which required inynediate.
legislati've interference, until an opportunity occur-
red ofrevisin& the-whole System of Poor Laws.--.-
When such aty investigation should tale place, -it
would require all•the atoritiop7of :the ablest „Mem-
:bets of that
.. House, ik „ long ;Session of
Parliament. He was cegfaiyi;! 4iowever,._ he did
not belie the sentiments .'of-
_Gentlemen in that
House, when, he said they would blush if
_they
delayed the means of . alleviating any particular
evil until they had investigated the whole Sys-
tem, in Order', to inquire what particular parts of
it .inight require- the legislative interferenee.,.
When an evil was proved' to the s‘itisfaCtion of
that House to exist, then
.was the time to re,
medY. it. , The increase of the Poor Rates , had
been .mentioned by the • Hon. Gentleman' (Mr.
BERKELEY), but it should be JecolleCted, that a
great part of, that, increase arose out of political
Circumstances, and had pothing strialy to do with
the relief of the Poor. The support of the wives,
and families of Militia Men, and many, other. eir,
cumstances contributed to make the Poor Rates.
Much larger than they were before. The greater
part of the increase of the Poor Rates did not
arise therefore from the relief of the Poor, consti,
tutionaily so called. The Hon. Baronet (Sir W.
Et:FORD). had, he- said, done him but justice
supposing he would not attribute a want of feeling
for the. distresses of the poor to other Gentlemen.
What he aid onfa former evening, which had been
alluded to by the. Hon. Baronetarose from the irh-
_pulse ofhis feelings,- on a proposition' being made
'for
,delayirig the measure now before the House ; it
was under the 'impression that proposition- made
upon his mind that he had made those observations,
without the remotest intention of imputing' the
Ivent of feeling to any Gentleman, He- considered
the Bill as not only wise andpolitic, but he thought
that if ever therewas"a.. just appeal ro the passions
and feelings of the House, it- was.' the- present Inca--
sure.- • Every one must know,
.thatlr'the Badge
had beep affixed to all the PaWAl.3plkiti‘g2ivithin A
late period for relief, alinoseiNihflatotiring Poor
in the kingdom must Asa be
well known; 'that when. men become 'disgraced, and
degraded their own 'estimation, a'S every man
must if 'compelled to wear such a Badge, the moral
principle became weakened, and they were -easily led
to the commission of crimes 'whieh 'before thiy
shuddered at. Had the Poor, applying for relief,
been indiscriminately compelled to wear this• Badge,
they would have become bad
.subjcffi, bad him-
bands, -bad fathers, and bad men. It was to him
a melancholy refledion, that many of the Poot had
been rendered-unable, through the pressure of the
times, to procure proper- and. decent apparel ;
thinking, as he did, that than circumstance -wbuld'i
also contribute to lessen that proper pride which '
tended to preserve them from the commission of
dishonourable' afts, he should be extremely sorry
if this measure was delayed a moment longer than
'was necessary. •
Mr. SIMEON approved of the Bill, conceiving
that the Hon. Gentleman who had proposed the
measure had very- properly taken•a middle course,
tt'ithout interfering with the general:principle. On
the general subjet of the Poor. Laws, he allowed
they were complicated and intricate, but he thought
most of the questiOns which. could ;irise. out of
them, }hid been already settled, and that they had
now generally, become matter of fad, which admit-
ted of little or no doubt. lie thought, however,
that Gentlemen who, with the best intentions,

brought forward measures to meet any eircumstan-
ces that arose, were always entitled to attention
and-fipplinse, and that they_only erred when they
iittempted •tio,:grasp the whole System of the Poor
Laws, and to providefor.qery popible
.case : he,
therefore, .did not agree. with q,p3iA9nie.Pcntletnan
(Mr. BERKEI:EI'), in his ;general censure of'the
Poor Laws: • ---.1;;711/1434'.

Mr..ELLISON thought by far fa'dicasideiable
a sum of money had been spent to arrive at the
matter of faft mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. SusitEoN)., He Considered every measure of
this nature with reference to the 43d of Elizabeth,
from which he never wished to depart. The ACt of
William 111. was made fOr ordinary times, and not
for, times like those we had !a:ely expe-
rienced. He thought; that if there was wretch in
the kingd(ini capable, for the sake of a paltry
moiety of a zos. penalty, to compel an Overseer to
carry i.ito eXceutton a Law, the breach of which
was more honourable to him than the. observance,
this Bill certainly ought to pass.
. .
The SPEAKER observed, that a great deal had
been said, which waz not strictly in order, but as
it had been allowed, he wished to say a few words
relative ro the observations which had been made.
With respect to the motives of Gentlemen, which
had been made part of the discussion, it was not to
be supposed but that Gentlemen aCled there with
the purest and best motives. As to the observa-
tions made on the Poor Laws, it should be observed,
that a different management frequently took place
in different Parishes, by which, as was .the case in
two Parishes where he possessed property, the Poor
Rates.were increased in one and not in the other.—
The MI of William 111. with respal to the Pro-
. visions: now under consideration, had not been exe-
cuted in many parts of the Kingdom, but if executed
at all, it most be indiscriminately; the objeft of
the Bill now before the Houge; was, therefore, to
make a distinetion, which appeared to be; alled for
by present circumstances.
Mr. BERKELEY and Mr. ;D,tEo.tf, ,se.verallrot-
plained.

Mr. NEWBOLT said, the objea of the Bill was
to prevent those persons applying for the means to
styport them la their career of industrious exertion
from being confounded with another and wholly
different cla4s of Poor.

Mr. SHAW LE FEVRE thought the objet of
th-:. measure might be attained by substituting a
summary determination before a Magistrate, fgr a
Fosecutiol fur imiielment againstOvermrs, whom.

saw- milcc rreraitryll7l-CV4 • rie
did not conceive that the discontent of the Poor, fe.
even riots arising in consequence, ought to to
brought forward as an argument in .favour of the
present Pill. He thought the Poor, during the late
pressure, had been mud) better .off than before, from
the
,large sums liberally contributed for their sup,.
port, whilst the minor payers. of Poor Rates had
,been miserably oppressed.
Tr. NEW.BP.LT said, the circumstance on which
the Bill was founded, was not the penalty upon
Ovetrsegs; but, this, that Overseers would be corn-
consequence of that penalty, to carry the
proy,i4jpp, jofulthe mt. of William 111. relative to
badges„pitoctotecution.
Mr. SHAW. 'ATV:At explained.
The then passed the Committee.
The House being resumed, the Report was
ordered to 'be immediately received ; and being
,brought up by Mr. STußctss, was ordered to be
taken into further consideration on Monday, And
th6.Bill to, be printed, as amended:

The ,Committee on the Exchequer Bills Fund-
ing Bill, and of Supply, and Ways and !Meats,
were deferred till Monday.
4djogrnesl at half-past five till Monday►,

THE SUN,

101.1 m QUI; DlCikt ►ALauM AUDIA.T?