The Sun.
London, England, 1865-02-21 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF LORDS—LAsT EVENING.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on thp woolsack at
the usual hour.

NEW COURTS OP LAW.

- _
The Earl of LONGFORD called_ the attention of
the house to a return made relative to the num-
ber of persons which would be displaced by the
building of the new courts of law. The return
showed that 151 houses would be pulled down, and that
these houses contained 302 persons. On making inquiry
relative to his return, he found that no mention was made
of the lodgers. It appeared that although the householders
were few the lodgers were many ; and what he desired
was, that a further return should be made showing the
actual number of persons who would be displaced-
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he would make in-
quiry' relative to the matter mentioned by the noble lord.
The Earl of Srr A F TESBITRY said the return was not
at all in accordance with the standing orders, which
laid it down, that before a bill of the nature then
under discussion was read a second time a return
of the positive and actual number of persons displaced
should be stated at length, and also that it should show
what accommodation had been made [for the poor people.
The return before them was altogether a perfect mockery.
He hoped that the noble lord on the woolsack would insist
on a better and fuller return being made.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he had been much
struck with the numbers mentioned in the return, but he
would see that a new return was made.
THE DEFENCE OF CANADA.

Lord LYVEDEN asked what had been done, or what
her Majesty's Government intended to do, with respect to
the report of Col. Jervois on the defences of Canada. The
conclusion he drew from the report was that Canada was in
an entirely defenceless condition. He did not know what
would have happened had General Dix's order been curled
out. He approved certainly of the principles of neutrality
being strictly followed out, but he feared there had grown
a dislike to England in America, because it appear+d there
to be the feeling that he that was not for us was against wt.
The noble earl (Derby) had already referred to the im-
portant results that were likely to arise from the suspension,
by annexation, of the provisions of the treaty of 1817. The
notice that America intended that suspension had been
given in November, so that in May next it was just possible
that America might, have a fleet of gunboats on those lake.s
lake Ontario was the most important to England, and he
should like to know what provisions the Government had
made to have a fleet of gunboats there, and what steps
they had taken to defend their own against any hostile
fleet that might be placed there by America. Helthought
it was high time that the most vigorous measures should
taken to protect the Canadas from attack.
Earl DE GREY and RIPON—My lords, I quite agree
with the noble lord who has just sat down that the question
is one of great importance. I also agree with him that the
question is surrounded with great difficulty. My noble
friend says that her Majesty's Government was guilty of an
official indiscretion in having laid this report upon the
table of both Houses of Parliament. Now, I will state the
grounds upon which we took that step, observing, in the
first instance, that if we are guilty of official indiscretion in
the production of this report, I think my noble friend is
open to the charge of indiscretion, inasmuch as in his
speech he has spoken in terms of the Government of the
United States and of the motives likely to actuate them in
certain circumstances, which perhaps it would have been
as well if he had not employed. (Hear, hear.) And more-
over, as of certain grounds upon which he imagines that
the peace negotiations recently going on were based, which
as far as I know had no foundation except in the tele-
graphic reports received from day to day by the American
newspapers, and which are not very frequently confirmed.
I shall not therefore notice the speech of my noble friend
except so far as it is associated with the facts of the case.
The report of Col. Jervoise contains a statement—no doubt
a serious statement—of the real facts of the case; but I must
tell your lordships that after all there is nothing in this re-
port not perfectly well known to those who had previously
considered the question from the public documents laid
before other assemblies and speeches made in other coun-
tries. But, my lords, as we proposed to ask the Parliament
of this country and the Legislative Assembly of Canada to
bear their respective shares of the expenditure necessary for
the defences of the provinces, we felt it was necessary to
lay before Parliament the ground on which we made the
proposition, and that was the object which we had in pro-
ducing this report. Therefore, I must say Ido not think
that her Majesty's Government was at all guilty- of that
portion of the indictment preferred against us by my noble
frfend. That brings me to reply to the question he has put.
The report consists of two parts; first, relative to the de-
fences of the fortress of Quebec, and second to the improve-
ment of the fortress of Montreal and the defence of the
western portion of the country from that point. This re-
port has received the serious consideration of the Govern-
ment, and we have informed our representative in Canada
(Lord Monck) that we intended to apply to Parliament
this year for a sum of money for the improvement of the
fortifications of Quebec, and that we looked to the Canadian
Government to take steps for the fortifications of Montreal,
and for the erection of other works that might be necessary
to the westward of that important place.
The Earl of DERBY—What about Halifax ?

Earl DE GREY and RIPON—I will speak of Halifax
presently. I am now confining myself to Quebec and
Montreal. The proposal was that we should undertake the
expenses of the defences of Quebec, which was always con-
sidered an Imperial fortress. In former days that fortress
was strong and adequate to the times ; but it had grown
inadequate to the circumstances of the present day, and re-
quired attention and improvement. That work we take
upon ourselves. The Canadian Government are made
aware of the obligations that rest upon them, and I have
reason to suppose that they will place themselves in a posi-
tion to meet the emergency of the case. With respect to
the point advocated by the noble earl opposite (the Earl of
Derby), there has been a vote for the defence of Halifax
for many years upon our army estimates, and there will be
a large sum in the estimates for the present year. It is
quite true that the arrangements made in Canada with re-
spect to the militia were by no means satisfactory, but my
noble friend must recollect that since the period to which
he refers a new Government has been formed in Canada,
which entertains much wider views than its predecessors,
and, according to the information which I have received, is
determined to turn their attention to this question, and to
take means to place the militia in a state of efficiency.
With respect to the ballot, I am enabled to state that not
the mustering of the troops, but the first process of the
ballot has already taken place.
Lord LYVEDEN—How many men have been balloted
for?

Earl DE GREY and RIPON —I cannot exactly say at
this moment. There is no doubt but the Government of
Canada are determined to do their duty as regards the ques-
tion of the militia, and her Majesty's Government will afford
all the encouragement with respect to the formation of the

training schools for militia officers that may be required.

The details of the formation of that force, and of the volun
teers, will rest entirely in the hands of the Canadians. I
think it possible that this system may be carried out, asking
the men to submit to the sacrifice of leaving their own homes
and going to long distances. My noble friend (Earl Gran-
ville) tells me that the has just ascertained that for 80,000
menoffi the
webaasllothas been taken, and that the training of the
going on satisfactorily. The Canadian Govern-
ment proposed to extend the system of schools for the
militia, and her Majesty's Government will afford
every facility for doing so.
to ask . Parliament to incur ceertainare entitl.d
expenses
for the defence of Canada ; but at the same timetn we do not
think that this country should be called upon
the whole of the cost. The North American colonies have
undertake
made a considerable stride in a short time. They are show-
ing a spirit of loyalty and statesmanship which is most
creditable to them and gratifying to this country. We be-
lieve that the Government of Canada will respond to the
call made upon them, and that measures will be taken in a
short time to place the North American colonies in an ade-
quate position of defence.
The Earl of DERBY—My lords, I feel the state of our
relations with the Federal States of America to be so criti-
cal that for my own part I should have been desirous to
maintain an absolute silence, and to leave to her Majesty's
Government the responsibility of the difficult and delicate
position in which we are placed, lest any interference on our
part might lead possibly to increased embarrassment, and
accordingly on the occasion of the moving of the Address to
the Crown, I contented myself with pointing out simply
-what I believe to be the threatening state of affairs—not
expressing any opinion whatever as to the course pursued,
lzutleaving to her Majesty's Government the responsibility
the position and
the precautions to be adopted. (Hear,
hear. \ guts my lords, her Majesty's Government have
now taken a step which I think entirely justifies the ques-
tion ra;,,, A
by the noble lord opposite. Because when her
Majesty's by
this and the othere
Rent have officially laid on the table of
the defenceless staeuse
te of Parliament a report showing
provineea„ and there of one of our most important
calling
dom and of foreignl7o the attention of this king-
her Majesty's Govethat
sub.
unenttries to that defenceless state,
ee themselves appear to invite
a discussion upon
Parliament, I do not
formally taken, but
3 no
and to ask the opinion of
the expression of the opinion of6apnTsnidt;tvidual members as
to the responsibility of that
I cannot but think that it was the Z.
of her Ma-
(Hear, hear.)
n this large
jesty's Government that we should enteenrtion
neewxpenditure
and critical question, involving, as it doe; theur
of large sums of money, and inaugurating a
policy altogether. I also think that the subject was much
of
more worthy of being noticed in the Speech from the
Throne than any of those comparatively unimportant
questions which formed the staple of that document.
(Hear.) I will not pretend to say that the communication
of that most unsatisfactory report is likely to afford to your
lordships information which you were not already in pos-
session of. At the same time I think it is humiliating to
this country to set forth officially the utterly unprepared
and defenceless state in which one of our most important
possessions is kept, at a moment when the question of
peace and war depends, not upon the calm consideration of
friendly Governments, but upon the excited passions of

popular assemblies of a nation which, whether rightly or
wrongly, does entertain, to a very greatextent, hostile feel-
ings towards this country. (Hear.) I think her Majesty's
Government, in laying that paper before th 3 house, have
given to it a character far more important thin if they had
left the subject to the universal knowle Ige which exists of
the state of affairs, and had contented the mselves with
silently and quietly taking the steps necessary to counteract
the danger which it is too plain her Majesty's Government
now apprehend. (Hear, hear.) I do not complain, nor never
have complained of the course of neutrality which her
Majesty's Government have pursued between the two con-
tending powers of North America. But, looking as Ido
with the utmost horror to the possibility of a war between
this country and the Federal States, or this country and the
United States—if such a reunion be possible—l must say I
think that her Majesty's Government have been slow to take
steps, with the symptoms of increasing dissatisfaction and
discontent which have been brought to their notice and of
increasing menace on the part of the United States—l say I
think they have been slow to make adequate preparations to
meet the danger, which now they confess to be one of a
real and substantial character. (Hear, hear.) There is one
point to which the noble earl adverted, but which I think
deserves more attention than he has given to it—l mean
our state of preparation at Halifax. What has taken place
with regard to that ? They state that up to the present
time there has been an agreement by which an absolutely
insignificant naval force should be maintained at either
side. But just before the commencement of the season,
when it was impossible to take any decisive measures on our
part, steps were taken by the Federal authorities in abso-
lute and direct violation of the conditions of the treaty. It
is true that the American Government have declared that
it was not their intention to violate the treaty beyond the
period when they found it absolutely necessary for their
own security. But they have taken upon themselves to
violate the treaty without previous notice to her Majesty's
Government. They have, in violence of the treaty, placed
vessels upon the lakes which menace the security of Canada,
and they have not given, so far as I am aware, any reasons
which might seem to render necessary the infraction of the
solemn conditions of the treaty. They simply contend that
this suspension of the treaty should not last longer than the
period of absolute necessity. But, at the same time, they
take steps which will enable them to carry on that period
of supposed necessity as long as they think fit, and after the
period of six months from notice of the suspension they will
be in a state of perfect liberty to place upon the lakes any
force they may think proper, and her Majesty's Government,
as far as we know, have taken no measures to place themselves
in a similarstate of preparation. la.* her Majesty's Govern-
ment, do they take credit for having made preparations to
meet these difficulties ? God forbid they should prove to
be real difficulties ? God forbid they should be confirmed,
in point of fact ! But there are those threatening circum-
stances, these eventualities to be provided against. Her
Majesty's Government admit by the fact of coming down
to Parliament at the eleventh hour to ask for the means of
erecting fortifications to supply that which is an absolute
necessity—they admit, I say, that they see the danger, and
they say that that danger can only be successfully en-
countered by a large contribution on the part of the
Canadian Government and that of other provinces. But,
as Colonel Jervoise truly observes, men are not sufficient
without fortifications, and that fortifications for Montreal
and Quebec are objects of peremptory and pressing import-
ance. Connected with this subject there is one point of
great importance—namely, that the Americans should not,
in the event of a rupture, be permitted to have, in the
first instance, the command of the lakes. You now admit
the necessity of fortifications to which you never turned
your attention during the whole period that these unfor-
tunate events have been going on, although you must have
known that in certain events the amicable relations be-
tween this country and the United States would be inter-
rupted. You have taken no steps up to the present moment
to provide the fortifications of which you now speak.
And even now, when we know there is a preponderating
American force on the lakes, I do not believe any measures
have been adopted to place a force on the lakes sufficient
to meet that danger. Although a rupture might take place
at any-moment, I am not aware that any steps have been
taken to meet the danger by land, and none whatever have
been adopted to meet the danger which threatens you by
water, and which, as I say, may come upon you at any
moment. (Hear, hear.) As far as I understood the sketch
which the noble earl gave of the intentions of her Majesty's
Government, it is intended to ask Parliament for the sum
of X 200,000. I believe that is the estimate for the defences
of Quebec.

EarlDE GREY and RIPON—OnIy X 50,000 this year.
The Earl of DERBY—OnIy £50,000 this year ! Then
I want to know from the noble earl when he thinks this
danger threatens us ? (Hear.) Is it imminent, or is it one
which may be apprehended in three or four years ? You
ask for £50,000, and you say the whole will cost £200,000,
and the Canadian Government are to expend £400,000, or
£500,000 more on the fortifications of Montreal, which you
say are more urgent and more pressing than Quebec. And
then the noble earl astonishes us by telling us that seeing
this threatening aspect of affairs her Majesty's Govern-
ment are about to erect works which will cost £200,000,
but that they are going to ask for only £50,000. Ido not
know whether even £50,000 will be asked for; perhaps it
may drop down to £20,000, so that in the course of ten
years these fortifications, upon which the safety of the pro-
vince depends, may possibly be constructed. (Hear,
hear.) Whereas the danger, if danger there be, is
one which may be realised not in the course of years
but of months. (Hear, hear.) My lords, I deprecate as
much as any man can do the utterance of language which
could increase the exasperation or any ill-feeling which
may, or as I am afraid does, does prevail on the part of the
United States towards this country. But it is the part of
common prudence to be prepared against a danger absolutely
and imminently threatening, and I must say that neither
in anything that her Majesty's Government have done, or,
as far as I understand, in what they propose to do, have
they taken adequate steps to meet that which they consider
to be a great and impending danger. I think it possible
that, in a pecuniary sense, the western provinces of Canada
are rather a drain upon our resources, but the influence of
this would not be felt if a large and powerful confederation
should be formed. If Canada were to manifest a desire to

take violent steps to separate from this country, I do not
think it would be desirable for the mother country—l do
not think it would be for our honour or interests—to en-
deavour to retain her in unwilling and reluctant associa-
tion with us ; but, so long as she is desirous of remaining
in union with us we are bound, by the ties both of duty
and of honour, to the utmost of our power, to second their
efforts; because I thing that the possession of the naviga-
tion of the St. Lawrence, and the occupation of New Brun-
swick and the rest of the seaboard of the America colonies
is, to a maritime country like this, of the utmost importance,
and is a question far too great to be considered merely as
one of money and of economy. (Hear.) Therefore Ido not
think it unimportant whether this country remains con-
nected with Canada or not, and I say it would be a lasting
disgrace to this country—it would be an ignominy to which
I trust she would not submit—to allow that upon, any pre-
text whatever these provinces should be suddenly, while
in a defenceless state, turned over to their own care, and
exposed to the possible invasion of a foreign country,whose
good-will we have endeavoured, however unsuccessfully,
to propitiate, if not by strict neutrality, at any rate by a
neutrality more favourable to the North than to the
South. I say that, under such circumstances, to allow that
colony to be wrested from us without putting forth the full
strength of the empire to repel every attempt at invasion,
would be a gross and lasting disgrace and ignominy which
I hope this country would never suffer. (Cheers.)
Earl GRANVILLE—I feel that this is not only an im-
portant question, but one which must be approached with
considerable delicacy. As to the complaints that the Go-
vernment have been guilty of indiscretion in laying this
report before Parliament, I do not see how it was possible
for Government to ask Parliament for money unless they

had placed before them the information contained in this

document. My noble friend the Secretary for War stated,
with great truth, that it was necessary to give some state-
ment of this sort to enable the Government of Canada to
make application to the Imperial' Government. The noble
earl opposite says that if this great and sudden change of
policy was to be adopted by d her. Majesty's Government it
sdhoonnyldthhaatvtehobreeennasananunance .in the Queen's Speech. I
cohnchange. This subject of
ofn anxious inquiry for
the defence of Canada has been one
peer in this house
some time past. 1 am sure there is
and a
who will deny that Canada is bound too
considerable part, in providing the defencetake unpescretsary
foaf hconsntialedaf
oartes'enetime de-
clined has
f'aule tGovernmentheattacks
of
been
ntectht
ehecasrseelf?
to do this. It is only recently that wu
a Government with which we could deal on this haves hadt,
and it was not until that Government came forwarudbjec .
commendable public spirit—(hear, hear)--that we couldwl.th
bring the subject under the notice of Parliament, and ask
them to grant money to a colony which formerly declined
to put forth efforts to protect itself. This state of things
has been changed, and I rejoice in the proofs of the good
feeling that now exists between the colony and the
mother country. It is very satisfactory to observe that
one of the clauses agreed upon by the delegates of the
British North American Provinces was to the effect
that all engagements entered into with the Imperial
Government should be assumed by the general Govern-
ment. (Hear, hear.) Nothing can be more decisive as
showing the honourable feeling of our fellow subjects in
North America. With reference to the limited naval force
to be maintained by the two Governments respectively
on the lakes between Canada and the States, it was not
until November that we had received notice from the Ameri-
can Government of their desire to put an end to that
arrangement. Th 3 noble earl says there has been a very
great violation of the treaty. That was a very strong ex-
pressioni to use. The American Government may have
gone further
_ revenuerther than they ought to have done in maintaining
'f_cutter upon the lakes beyond the stipulated naval
orce, but they allege
that they have committed no violation
am sure that in treating these questions the
wisest and most
patriotic course is to treat them with the
greatest moderation and the greatest calmness. (Hear.) I
would not diminish
aid to Canada in our heartiness in sending
wh may God
the possible
but terrible alternative—
a vertf
theich United States. If, ret ?ur being engaged in war with
a parent, Canada should anling
the position of a child to
still wish to remain connected

with us, and should hold herself prepared to take her full
share of the burden, I believe that the mother country will
stand by her, and I believe that a great country like Eng-
land ought to come forward in time of need to assist the
efforts of such a dependency. (Cheers.)
Lord LYT TEL TON thought that, from the complexion
which events had recently assumed on the American con-
tinent, it was evident that no time should be lost in put-
ting Canada into a proper state of defence. The danger
which threatened that country might be imminent, and he
did not think it could be maintained that £200,000 was an
extravagant sum for the mother country to contribute to-
wards placing the fortifications of the province on a proper
footing.

The Earl of MALMESBITRY—I think that if the Go-
vernment are really in earnest in this matter, it must be
confessed that the sum proposed to be devoted for the
first year to the defence of Quebec is a most trumpery
one. I understand that it is proposed, in the first instance,
to make a grant of £200,000, but I fear that amount will be
feund quite inadequate, inasmuch as the works intended to
be executed ought to be completed in a short time. I under-
stand that the army is to be reduced, not by any large
number of men, but still to be reduced. It should be re-
membered that the military force specially needed in Canada
is infantry, and the Imperial Government ought to obtain
from the Colonial Government a guarantee to provide such
a force, for artillery, stores, and means of transport might
be readily furnished from the mother country. It is the
duty of the Government to be prepared for any emergency
that mayarise if a sudden end shall be put to the war which
has for so many years raged in America. There seems to
' have been an opinion widely prevalent that that war was
commenced to ensure the emancipation of the slaves, but I
think that delusion must have disappeared from the mind
of every man within the last three weeks. It is now admitted
that the contest is for independence on one side and for un-
divided dominion on the other. If the delusion did ever
exist, that at the conclusion of this war the Americans would
sit down quietly and disband their armies, it must by this
time have disappeared, for they have shown, indisputably,
an insatiable ambition for dominion, whether that desire
shall seek to develop itself in the acquisition of territory to
the south, to the north, to the east, or to the west.

The Earl of ELLENB OROUGH—I think it would be
well for her Majesty's Government to consider in what
position the Confederates would be now if they had acted
on the principle on which her Majesty's Government are
acting at this conjuncture. The Confederates did not suffer
themselves to be caught unprepared, as was at once shown
by the readiness with which they threw up fortifications
at Charleston, at Mobile, at Wilmington, and elsewhere.
If they had proceeded on the supposition that ample time
would be allowed them the Confederate generals would,
long before this, have been overwhelmed, and their armies
would have ceased to exist. We are in this position—that
if the people of Canada are really desirous to maintain their
connection with this country, as they seem to be, and if
they are willing to put forward their best efforts, we are
bound in honour to give them our assistance. (Hear,
hear.) I deeply lament the position in which we are placed.
I deprecate war with America as fatal to the best interests of
both countries, and incapable of producing the slightest
benefit—(hear, hear)—but we may be compelled by honour
to engage in these hostilities. But the Canadians must do
something more than merely express the desire of being
united with this country ; they must take steps that may
lead to the provision of a sufficient defensive force. Unless
they are prepared to come forward, as the inhabitants of
the Southern States have come forward, by the exertions
of every man among them in the defence of what is most
dear to them, not only their property, but the safety and
honour of their families will be endangered. Unless they
are prepared to go to that extent, though honour may
oblige us to assist them, real, effectual assistance it is im-
possible for us to give. Canada must be defended by Ca-
nadians. If this be not so we shall lose many of the noble
men we send out to their assistance, and the honour of this
country will also suffer in the destruction of the inadequate
force provided for the defence of Canada. These are my
feelings, and I hope they are shared by others. But this
danger, if it come, may come at any moment, for which we
might be preparing at this hour. I fear that nothing we
can do can avert this danger. There is no one in the
country who can see what may be its end, and I must
say it is to me almost incredible that the Government
should be satisfied with voting £50,000 for the purpose
of providing for one year one-fourth of the cost of the
defence of a place which must be the point of disembarka-
tion for our troops if war should ensue. This is no new
subject, at least as regards former Governments, even if it
should be so to the Government now in office. If her
Majesty's Ministers were to look through the records of
their several offices they would find—though I do not
know in what office—that from the year 1828 to the period
of his decease some records of the opinions of the Duke of
Wellington with respect to the defence of Canada. I recol-
lect a communication of the Duke of Wellington on that
subject so far back as 1828. I know that he thought very
deeply and strongly upon the subject, and I hope that when
the Government are preparing measures for the defence of
Canada they will not be satisfied with the report laid on the
table, but will consult the opinions recorded by the Duke
of Wellington. (Hear, hear.)
Earl RUSSELL—I regret very much that my noble
friend thought it requisite to bring on this discussion. The
Government are supposed to have brought forward a dis-
patch showing the weakness of Canada. The course her
Majesty's Government have taken is this—that, having to
provide a remedy for the weakness of Canada, they pro-
duced a dispatch showing what it was to which they pro-
posed to apply a remedy. This is a question of a vote of
money, of a considerable vote for the first year, which
may come to be a very large sum in future years. In order
to obtain the assent of the House of Commons to such a
proposal, it was necessary to show both the necessity and
that the remedy proposed to be applied should be efficient.
The noble earl opposite has complained very much of the
vote not being taken previously. The noble earl says two
things are to be considered—the one that Canada cannot
be defended without improved resources and imprctved for-
tifications, and the other that the people of Canada should
themselves contribute largely to defend their own soil from
invasion. If the Government had come forward three years
ago and had asked Parliament for a large vote, would not
the great body of the House of Commons have said,. "What
have the Canadians done ? Have they organised a militia ?"
The answer would have been—" No." " Have they made
preparations, or are they disposed to make preparations to
join in their defence, and to contribute to the expense ?"
The answer would again have been in the negative. Could
we as a Government be expected to obtain a large vote
from the House of Commons under these circumstances ?
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord says we ought quietly and
secretly to have made these preparations. What! have pro-
cured £200,000 quietly and silently! I do not know how
the First Lord of the Treasury could have got the money
quietly and silently, keeping it secret and not mentioning it.
I contend therefore that these charges are totally void of
any solid foundation. When my lamented friend Sir G.
Lewis was at the War-office he had the subject constantly
in his thoughts. The state of the position of Canada oc-
curred to him as it occurred to all who held office since this
Government was formed. Towards the end of the past year
a new spirit was displayed among the people of Canada, and
indifference gave place to devoted loyalty, and the strongest
, desire was expressed to form a confederation. The utmost
, readiness was also shown to-furnish the means for fortifying
Canada and to raise 90,000 or 100,000 militiamen. When
L this diiposition appeared Government thought it their duty
to submit this measnre to the House of Commons, and I
hope they will approve the grounds on which it is founded.
The noble earl censured the Government for proposing so
small a grant as £50,000, but the grounds of that proposal
will soon be fully laid before Parliament. I repeat that I
regard it as a matter to be lamented that my noble friend
should have brought the question forward at this time.

The Government, however, are entirely of opinion with
the noble earl opposite, that if the Canadians are ready to

stand by Canada this country is bound in honour to stand

by Canada—if they are ready to grant their resources to
preserve their connection with Great .Britain, we ought to
be ready to spend our resources to defend them, because
this is a question not only of interest but of honour.
With regard to the statement of the noble earl (litalmes-
bury) that this was a war of conquest and for the abolition.
of slavery, I must say that for my part I have always
thought, and stated it as my opinion at the commencement
of the civil war, that this was a contest for empire. (Hear,
hear.) And just as I believe the contest which we carried
on in 1776, and continued until 1783, was a contest for
empire, and nothing else, so also I believe that in the
same manner as we acted then the United States have

acted now, and if our position were similar to theirs we
should have acted in a similar way as that in which the
American States have acted. Ido not wish to say anything
with regard to the question, which I must say the noble
earl opposite raised in no very impartial spirit, with regard
to the attacks which, from time to time were made in the
American Congress, and in a more marked manner in the
American Senate, upon the conduct of this country ; but
this I may say, that whatever may be the intemperance of
certain orators in the Congress and Senate, and whatever
may be the unjust and extreme violence manifested by cer-
tain portions of the United States press, I cannot think the
United States Government has been wanting in moderation
of conduct. But when the American Minister asks me, if
you were at war with any European power, and vessels
were to come out of New York and cruise against your
commerce, and burn your merchant vessels, would you,
the English people, submit to the matter exactly as our
Government have done ? I admit it is somewhat difficult
to answer the question; for, though in point of law and in
point of reason the United States have nothing to say, yet
in point of feeling and in point of impression it is humiliat-
ing and provoking to them to consider that a friendly
nation and a neutral nation should have allowed to be fitted
out vessels in its ports to cruise against their ports and
vessels and to the injury to their commerce. (Hear, hear.)
It becomes us, as we see everything British to be right
American to be wrong, that we should
whatand would
make
somebe our u
allowance
conduct
for
a
familiar circumstances,
war. Considering
na7odw. e.avnedrYtren g
in our own country, I do not
the feelings which prevail
the have done. With
think we could expect to act as y
consider
though I admit that
people engaged in a most dreadful
slavery,
for the b li
and not ao -
this has been a war for empire
fortunate circum-
, tion of slavery, I think it ie a most
regard to the question of

stance, if it be nothing more, that the Congress of the
United States, by a majority of two-thirds, have agreed
that for ever slavery or enforced labour shall cease to be
part of the constitution of the United States, and that no
slavery shall hereafter be permitted under that constitu-
tion. (Cheers.) Ido not ask you to give the Congress any
praise or credit for that act; but I confess that I rejoice
for the sake of the cause, for the sake of aquestion in which
this country at least in former years took a deep interest ;
for the sake of a subject which concerns the best interests
of mankind—l say that I rejoice that alaw for the abolition
of slavery has been passed by the Congress of the United
States of America, and that whether they once more be-
come an united people, or be a separate Northern nation,
there will be a great people, a mighty republic, in which
the stain of slavery shall cease to exist. (Cheers.)
The Earl of DERBY—With regard to the question of the
abolition of slavery which has been raised in this debate, I
may say that I should sincerely rejoice if the war should
lead to this result ; but I wish to call the attention of her
Majesty's Government to one part of the question of the
noble lord (Lyveden) to which no answer has been made,
and I wish to know whether her Majesty's Government
have taken or propose to take any steps in the face of the
preparations on the part of the American Government to
assert a naval superiority on the lakes.
The Duke of SOMERSET said perhaps the noble earl
was aware that the notice from the American Government
to increase their armament on the lakes reached this coun-
try at the end of November, and that this increase would
take place at the end of six months from the notice being
given. At that time it was not possible for her Majesty's
Government to increase their vessels owing to the rivers
and canals being frozen over. He (the Duke of Somerset)
had been for the past two or three years in communication
with naval officers of experience on this subject, and when
the proper time came he would be prepared to state what
course her Majesty's Government would take on the sub-
ject. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of LONGFORD called the attention of their
lordships to a matter of great importance in connection
with the defence of Canada—namely, the opening up the
main route between the Atlantic and Pacific on British ter-
ritory. This would cost more than £50,000, but had been
under the consideration of more than one Government.
The emigrants from Great Britain to the United States
amounted to 147,000, and to British provinces only 30,000.
The utmost encouragement ought to be given to British
emigrants to go to Canada instead of a foreign country.
The Earl of HARROWBY said, it appeared from the re-
port of Col. Jervoise that £1,340,000 would be required for
the defences which he recommended; and from the state-
ment of her Majesty's Government it would seem that only
£50,000 was to be voted this year. He would be glad to
know if this was the case.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE said £50,000 was a very small
sum to ask for at present, but would be glad to know if this
amount was to be concentrated on the fortifications of
Quebec, or to be dribbled away by being scattered over the
defence of the entire country. It would be necessary to
raise earthworks on the St. Lawrence at a sufficient dis-
tance from Quebec.

Earl DE GREY and RIPON said the amount to be
asked for would be spent on the fortifications of Quebec,
and would not be dribbled away in the defences of Canada.
But with respect to the vote to be asked this year, though
noble lords complained that the sum asked for was a small
one, they must be aware that it would be impossible to
spend £200,000 in one year. The working season in
Canada, owing to the nature of the climate, was necessarily
short, and at the commencement the Government could not
spend so much on the works as they could with advantage
when they had made some progress. Thore was land, for
instance, to be purchased. The officers of the fortification
departments whom he had consulted thought that the sum
of £50,000 was as much as could be spent in the present
season, but that a greater proportion could be spent in a
subsequent year. The object was to erect works as rapidly
as was consistent with their permanent nature, and her
Majesty's Government could apply to Parliament for as
much as the scientific officers thought necessary.
Lord LYVEDEN said he did not agree with the opinion
expressed by the noble earl the Secretary for Foreign
Affairs upon the policy of originating the discussion which
had arisen from this question. It was of importance to
have elicited the views of the noble lords who had taken
part in it, and if the noble earl had been in his (LordLyve-
den's) position it would have been the kind of discussion
which he would have been glad to provoke.
The subject then dropped.
The house adjourned at 10 minutes to 7 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—LAST EVENING.
The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The standing orders Were declared to have been com-
plied with in the case of several private bills
The following bills were read a second time :—Aberyst-
with and Welsh Coast Railway ; Afon Valley Railway ;
Bromley Gas ; Bury Saint Edmunds and Thetford Railway;
Cambrian Railways (Coast Extension) ; Carnarvon New
Water ; Chesterfield, Newbold, and Dunstone Road ;
Clitheroe and West Riding Junction Railway ; County
Antrim and Belfast Borough ; Deal and Dover Railway ;
Fareham Gas; Glasgow and South Western Railway (City
of Glasgow Union) ; Glasgow (City) Union Railway ;
Goole, Keadby, and Haxey Junction Railway ; Great
Eastern (Additional Powers) ; Great Eastern Railway
(Bishop Stortford, &c. Railways; Great Eastern Railway
Somersham to Ramsey) ; Hastings and St. Leonard's Gas ;
Heysham Railway and Pier ; Horseforth Water ; Kidder-
minster, Stourport, and Bewdley Water; King's Lynn
Docks and Railway ; Kircudbrfght Railway ; Lancashire
and Yorkshire, Midland, and Leeds, Bradford, and
Halifax Junction Railways ; Lancashire and Yorkshire
Railway and Lancashire Union Railways Com-
panies; Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway; Luton
Water ; Mistley, Thorpe, and Walton Railway ;
Newcastle-upon-Tyne Improvement ; North Eastern Rail-
way (Gilling, Helmsley, and Pickering Branch) ; North
Staffordshire Railway ; Ogmore Valley and Ely Valley
Extension Railway Companies ; Pontypool, Caerleon, and
Newport Railway ; Ross and Monmouth Railway ; Ross
Improvement ; St. Alban's Water ; St. John's Chapel (Port-
sea) ; Shrewsbury Bridges ; South Kensington New Road;
South Northumberland Railway; South Wales and Great
Western Direct Railway; Southwark and Vauxhall
Water; Southwark Bridge Transfer; Swansea Vale and
Neath and Breckon Junction Railway ; Tooting, Merton,
and Wimbledon Extension Railway ; Torquay Gas ;
Tyne Improvement ; West Worthing Improvement ; West
Yorkshire Railway ; Wimbledon Common'; Wolverhamp-
ton and Bridgnorth Railway ; and Wolverhampton and
North Staffordshire Junction Railway.
Severel private bills were read a first time.
Colonel WILSON moved the following new Standing
Order:—" All questions before committees on private bills
shall be decided by a majority of voices, and whenever the
voices are equal the question shall be decided in the
negative." He said that when 'the discussion
took place on this subject in the house the other
evening, the majority was in favour of the number of
members on committees being reduced to four instead of
three, and it was to give effectto the wishes of that majority
that he made the present motion, not having any private
feeling in the matter whatever. His object was to save
the time of hon. members, and to introduce the same prac-
tice that prevailed in the courts of law and the House of
Lords. The change which he proposed would be merely
an experiment, and, if found to be unsuccessful, the house
could revert to its original practice.
Mr. HODGSON opposed the motion.
Mr. ROBERTSON considered the change proposed ob-
jectionable, because it would diminish the responsibility of
the chairman.
Mr. A. MILLS agreed with the last speaker, and thought
the chairman should have a casting vote.
Mr. BRIGHT said that the motion, if agreed to, would
have the effect of neutralising the influence of the chairman
of the committee, who generally paid more attention to the
subject than his colleagues, and he would feel his respon-
sibility less than he did before. That would be a great
loss to those who were engaged in promoting bills, which
they did at great trouble, and which, if they involved large
schemes, might be supposed to be of public importance.
(Hear, hear.) He contended that it would be more desir-
able that, in the case of an equality of votes in a commit-
tee, the presumption was in favour of the bill.

Mr. M. GIBSON was opposed to an alteration from the
ma/H1
original number of five, and he agreed with hon. members
who thought the chair
should have a casting vote.

After some further discussion,
Col. W. PATTEN replied, and said there were 595
bills before the house this session, and the committee of
selection would have the greatest difficulty in securing the
attendance of hon. members.

The motion was negatived, and so were some others re•
lative to changes in the standing orders.
GRIEVANCES OF INDIAN OFFICERS.

Col. SYKES presented a petition on this subject, pray-
ing for a redress of grievances of which they have so long
complained.

THE DUTY OF FIRE INSURANCE,

Mr. NEWDEGATE presented a petition from the local
board of guardians in favour of a reduction of the duty on
fire insurances.
Several other petitions were presented to the same
effect.

COURTS, OFFICES, AND BUILDINGS.

Mr. POWELL:moved fora return of certain particulars
respecting present courts and offices proposed to be trans-
ferred to the Commissioners of Public Works and Build-

ings, or to become available for other public purposes in

accordance with the provisions of Courts of Justice Build-
ing Bill, 1865, and Courts of Justice Concentration (Site)
Bill, 1865, or either of them ; and of Buildings in the occu-
pation of legal departments to be hereafter accommodated
in the New Courts, in accordance with the provisions
of the said bills, or either of them ; the return to give in
separate columns, the situation of each block of building
containing such courts, offices, and buildings ; and the
purpose to which each court, office, and building is now
assigned.—Ordered.

GOVERNOR OF WAKEFIELD GAOL.
__ . _

Mr. NEATE gave notice of a motion on this subject.

THE LAW OF MARRIAGE.

Sir G. O'LOGHLEN asked if it was the intention of the
Government to introduce this session any measure to re-

gulate the law of marriage in the United Kingdom, or to
institute any inquiry with a view to future legislation ?
Sir G. GREY said that her Majesty's Government had
been applied to on the subject, which would be referred to
a committee.

COLLECTING AND ASSESSING THE LEGACY
AND SUCCESSION DUTIES, &c.

Mr. L. KING asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether he had directed the Board of Inland Revenue to
take the evidence of professional men and of the public
generally upon any improvements in the present mode of
collecting and assessing the legacy and succession duties,
&c.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the Board of Inland Revenue had no such authority as that
alluded to, and the Government had no power to confer it
on that Board. As regarded the means of ascertaining if
any grievances existed, they were possessed by Govern-
ment.

ALLEGED INFRINGEMENT OF A PATENT BY

GOVERNMENT

Mr. MAGUIRE asked the Secretary to the Admiralty to
lay upon the table the report of William Carpmael, the
patent agent, on Mr. John Clare, jun.'s patents, which Mr.
Clare alleges to have been made use of by the Admiralty
in the Warrior and subsequent iron ships for the Royal
navy ?
Lord C. PAGET said that the report had been made in
consequence of a request to the Admiralty, who referred
the subject to a professional gentleman. That report was
confidential, and could not therefore be laid on the table.