The Sun.
London, England, 1862-03-07 00:00:00

rllE SUN, LO:4IDON, FRIOAY EVENING, M AMU 7, 1862.

MINN'
best quality, and every part of them should be made under become obsolete. He had, a few days since, seen two very I
inspection, fine small-bore carbines, which had been bought at ss. the
Mr. MONSELL quite agreed with the hon. and gallant couple. Here must have been an enormous loss to the pub-
officer that the carriage and also the gun department should lic. (Hear, hear.)
be under the superintendence of Government. But it ap- Sir G. C. LEWIS said that the stock of rifles in stLre
neared to him that the clothing department stood upon did not exceed 301,000,which could not be called too much.
totally different ground. There was another vote in the Mr. DILLWYN was rather sorry to hear that a whole
estimates to the amount of £40,000 for increasing the build- regiment was to be armed with the Whitworth rifle. He
ing of this branch at Pimlico, and for the machinery for thought the long Enfield was a good enough arm for any
army clothing. He believed they should have a small esta- service. He deprecated having different arms with diffe-
blishment for the purpose of checking the private trade, but rent gauges, which was likely to create confusion on the
nine-tenths of the army clothing was made up not by private field of battle.
traders, but by Government establishments. He believed Sir G. C. LEWIS said many persons thought the Whit-
there was no analogy between the manufacture of guns for worth rifle a superior arm to the Enfield, and that the En-
the army and the making of coats and trowsers, and there- field should be discarded and the Whitworth substituted.
fore when they came to the items to which he referred, he Government were not prepared to go that length, but they
should take the sense of the house upon it. had determined to arm one regiment with the Whitworth.
Sir F. SMITH thought the house and the public were This measure had been taken in deference to the opinion of
entitled to more information with regard to the Armstrong the house, and of scientific persons out of the house. The
guns. According to some authorities, a great number of Government was not in any way pledged to any general
these guns would become totally useless in course of action. measure.

He hoped the right hon. baronet would appoint a commit-
tee of competent officers, to ascertain whether the weapon
was faultless. Nothing could be more satisfactory than the
manufacturing establishments at Woolwich, and to no one
were they more indebted for their present state of perfection
than the right hon, gentleman the member for Limerick.
He was glad to hear the right hon. baronet express his sa-
tisfaction with the Weedon establishment, because he had
entertained a different opinion with regard to it.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said he had alluded to the statement of
the commissioners with respect to Woolwich.
Sir F. SMITH hoped the Government would never em-
ploy private establishments for the manufacture of gun
carriages.

Mr. B. OSBORNE said the house had a great many sins
to answer for, but he was not aware that the house, in its
corporate capacity, had expressed an opinion in favour of
the Whitworth rifle. He believed that they would be ob-
liged to come, as continental armies had done, to the breech-
loading principle.
Sir G. C. LEWIS was not aware that any continental
army had a 'opted a breech-loading arm. The French army
had not. The American army was armed with a rifle
closely resembling the Enfield rifle.
The vote was then agreed.
The next vote was £1G3,491 for fortifications at home and
abroad.

Sir G. C. LEWIS said £30,000 of this sum was for forti-

Mr. B. OSBORNE said the right hon. gentleman the
member for Limerick had stated that nine-tenths of the
clothing of the army were made by government establish-
ments. This extraordinary statement had taken him and
the committee by surprise, and he thought that some answer
to it ought to be given. If it were true, the house ought to
come to some direct vote on the subject. In the exceptional
cases of gun carriages and ammunition there might be some
reason for the Government becoming manufacturers, but
there could be none for their conducting a great clothing

fications for the defence of commercial harbours. Of this,
£6,000 was for the fortification of the Mersey; £3,000 for
the Severn, which would defend Gloucester and Cardiff;
£5,000 for the Frith of Forth, and £2,500 for Belfast.
Mr. DILLWYN said he was going to move that the vote
for the Severn be omitted, but first he would ask what was
doing with regard to Alderney.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said £2,000 was to be applied in corn •
pleting the purchase of land.
Mr. B. OSBORNE—Why is Alderney called Guernsey ?

establishment.
Mr. A. TURN ER admitted that nothing could be more
disgraceful than the mode of keeping accounts at Weedon,
but at Woolwich the store accounts were almost perfect.
Nothing could be more improper than that the Government
should compete with manufacturers in regard to articles
which formed the general trade of the country.
Major PARKER believed that gun carriages might be
quite as well made in India, where the best materials for
them were to be found.
Sir H. VERNEY did not see why every article of cloth-
ing for the army should not be made in barracks as in
foreign countries. He believed that by the adoption of such
a system a great saving might accrue to the country. With
regard to rifles he thought that means ought to be adopted
to see whether the rifles of volunteers were in a perfect

(Laughter.)
Sir G. C. LEWIS said if the hon. member would look to
the top of the page he would find the word " district."
Captain JERVIS thought it was most important to de-
fend Harwich, which was a very open harbour, and was
opposite Antwerp. It was a matter of just complaint that
votes were taken every year for fortifications which were
never erected. In the case of Hull money was granted for
many consecutive years before it was actually spent.
Sir G. LEWIS said the votes in committee of supply
were in the nature of a maximum, and there was no com-
pulsion upon the Government to lay, out the money
granted. It was the opinion of military authorities that
the three points referred to would be very proper sites for
defensive works. He could not undertake to say whether
the sum [proposed would be expended this year, but he

state. +
Sir G. C. LEWIS said he was not aware of any intention
to increase the proportion of articles of clothing manufac-
tured by the Government as distinguished from those sup-
plied by contract. The vote for Pimlico was not for the
purpose of increasing the manufacture of articles but for
increasing the stores. The number of battalions of infan-
try supplied with clothing from Pimlico was 39, and the
number supplied by contractors 46.
Mr. NONSELL asked if that included the whole cloth-
ing, or only the tunics or trowsers
Sir G. C. LEWIS apprehended that it included the whole
clothing.
Mr. WARNER expressed a hope that a satisfactory
answer would be given to the question put by the hon.
member for Chatham (Sir E. Smith) in reference to the
charges which had been made in Captain Holstead's pam-
phlet against the Armstrong guns. The answer given by
the right hon. bart. (Sir G. C. Lewis) had been taken from
the letter written by Sir W. Armstrong in reply to Capt.
Holstead, but which had been met by the latter with coun-
ter statements. Grave doubts existed as to the danger
arising from the gun, not only to those who fired it, but to
all who were within reach of it. (Laughter.) The matter,
he considered, required further explanation than that which
had been offered.
Lord PALMERSTON—The defect of the Armstrong
projectile to which my hon. friend alludes was very much
felt in the earlier use of the gun—that is to say, that the
lead, a strip of which is put on the iron in order to make
it fit the groove, stripped off soon after the projectile quitted
the muzzle of the gun. That defect has been corrected.
(Hear.) The lead is now fastened in such a manner that it
cannot slip off until the shot strikes the ground, ricochets,
or enters the object against which it is directed. It is there-
fore satisfactory to know that a defect which was attended
with great danger, has ceased to exist. With respect to the
splitting of the vent piece, that has been pretty well cor-
rected by an improvement of the metal of which the vent
piece is made. As to the blowing out, that arises almost

thought it was probable that it would.
Viscount PALMERSTON observed that till the esti-
mates were voted neither drawings could be made nor cou-
tracts entered into, both of which operations often took a
great deal of time. The winter would come on, and the
works would be interrupted, so that it was often impracti-
cable te spend the money within the financial year.
Mr. DILLWYN was of opinion that neither the British
Channel stood in need of land defences, nor that the pro-
posed defences were judicious. He begged to move that
the vote be reduced by £3,000.
Sir F. SMITH thought the Government had come to a
wise decision. In the thirst French war a French frigate
actually entered the Severn and caused a groat deal of
alarm. Besides our gunboats would need apoint d'appui to
retire upon in case they encountered a too formidable force.
Major KNOX felt bound to expostulate with the Go-
vernment on the shabby sum of £2,000 appropriated to the
Irish harbours out of £163,000. (Hear, hear.)
Lord FERMOY suggested that, instead of setting up
on isolated rocks batteries that could either be captured by
the enemy or avoided by him altogether, they should take
all the prominent parts of the coast and erect on them tele
graph stations communicating by a submarine wire to our
naval stations, where a fleet of gunboats might always be
kept ready to start a moment's notice.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said that the suggestion of the noble
lord were worthy of attention; but it could not be consi-
dered an economical mode of defence. It would obviously
be cheaper to have batteries, which could be manned by the
volunteers of the neighbourhood ; and he was sure the vote
would not be grudged by the commercial communities, to
whose protection it was intended to contribute.
Sir G. LEWIS would ask the noble lord how much sub-
marine telegraph he thought could be laid down for £3,000?
He (the right hon. baronet) knew from recent experience
what alarm the commercial ports felt at the state of their
defences. If he had paid attention te a tithe of the applica-
tions which had been made to him, orally and in writing,
by many extremely frightened pe:ple, the proposed vote

invariably from the improper placing of it in the gun, not
allowing it to drop freely into the place for which it is in-
tended ; by which means, when the screw forces it np against
the breech, it is forced into a position by which a vacuum is
created between it and the bottom of the bore. The conse-
quence was that gas got into that space, and closed the vent
up. But if the vent-piece is dropped freely into its position
and then screwed up, and the screw is allowed to act freely,
the vent piece cannot be forced up. There were two causes
which frequently prevented the vent piece from being pro-
perly screwed up. One was in the marine guns, which is
elevated by quoins, and not by screw, as is the case in field-
pieces. The quoin frequently stopped the handle of the screw
by which the vent piece is closed up, and left a vacuum be-
tween it and the part which it ought to join. An arrange.
ment is now being made to remedy that inconvenience, and
whenever that vent piece is properly screwed up it is quite
impossible that any accident can happen. (Hear, hear.)
Major PARKER thought the charge of £6,000 for
sweeping chimneys—(a laugh)—wae a monstrous one. The
produce of the chimneys being a valuable fertiliser, ought
to repay the expense of its removal.
Sir G. C. LEWIS was under the impression that private
individuals incurred expense for sweeping chimneys—
(laughter)—and that the soot was not a source of profit to
them, but the contrary. There was an item which had been
passed over without observation, but which, had he been in
a position to criticise the estimates—(a laugh)—ho would
have taken some notice of. He alluded to the sum of
£12,600 charged for emptying cesspools. (Laughter.) So
long as the buildings were under the control of the War
Office sums like those alluded to would require to be voted.
The vote was then agreed to, as was also the vote for
£766,001 for wages, &c.
On the vote of £597,264 for clothing, &c.,
Mr. B. OSBORNE inquired what object the War-office
had in changing four regiments of Light Dragoons—viz.,
the 3d, 4th, 13th, and 14th—into Huzzars. The regiments
were proud of being called Light Dragoons, and had done
good service to the country—on many a field. The change
__did not promote economy ; on the contrary, it increased
expense ; and he considered the change bad in principle, and
calculated to have a bad effect upon the newly created
huzzars.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that the measure alluded to did not
in any way originate with the Executive Government. It
was a matter which they considered mainly belonged to the
discipline. The Military Commission hal recommended
the change, and also further alterations, which were agreed
to. The alterations were in the names of the regiments,
and a slight change in the dress, which was almost nominal.
Mr. B. OSBORNE observed that the alteration made a
difference of £l5O in the cost of the officers' dress.
Colonel NORTH considered that the change referred to
was a step in the wrong direction. The troops looked with
great disgust at the alteration. Last year it was proposed,
in compliment to a foreign neighbour, to take from his
(Colonel North's) own regiment the eagle button which they
hal won upon the field. He hoped that the proposition
would never be carried out.
Colonel SYKES also expressed an opinion adverse to the
change of the light dragoon regiments to huzzars.
Lord PALMERSTON—I can quite understand objections
to unnecessary changes, but really the objections taken in
the course of this discussion if followed out would go to this
extent—that our cavalry ought now, as in the olden time, to
wear pigtails, plastered heads, and cocked hats. (Laughter.)
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of £1,631,317 for provisions, forage, fuel,
light, barrack furniture, bedding, &c.,
Sir G. C. LEWIS explained that the increase in the vote
of this year over the sum required for the same purposes
last year was in consequence of extra fuel and light being
required for the troops sent to Canada and those serving in
China.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS complained of the great increase
in this vote, being nearly £200,000. After referring to the
charge of £5,004 for table allowances, &c., to officers serv-
ing at St. James's Palace, the hon. member moved that that
sum be struck out of the vote.
Sir H. VERNEY denied that the Guards had any pe-
culiar privileges. It was true they were exempt from colo-
nial service, but then were they not always the first sent to
the post of danger? (Mar.) He could also testify that
there was no jealouoy of the Gnarls in the line.
Colonel BARTTELOT said that the dinner was not for
the Guards specially, but for any regiment that might be
doing duty at the Palace. It was the same at the Castle of
Dublin and at the Banks of England and Ireland.
Colonel NORTH remembered the 6th (Royal) doing
duty at the Palace and getting the allowance.
After some further conversation,
Mr. WILLIAMS withdrew his amendment.
Mr. WILD wished to call attention to the state of the
canteens throughout the country. These establishments
were now,all in the lands of great contractors, and some
individuals were making £B,OOO or £lO,OOO a year out of
them. He trusted that before bringing on the estimates
next year the matter would be attended to.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that the matter was under con-
sideration.
The vote was agreed to.
£2,060,276 warlike stores for land and sea services.
Mr. W. MARTIN deprecated the enormous and continu-
ous accumulation of warlike stores, in the face of the now
inventions which were coming out every day both in arms
and projectiles. Wo had made, and were making, immense
stocks of weapons,
which would most probably in five years

would have to be very much larger. (Laughter.)
Mr. MONSELL said that if an effectual defence could be
provided against privateers by the vote, tlfere could be no
doubt that the money would be well laid out. The plan
suggested by the noble lord would be costly, but it would
be effectual, and he did not think we should be long at war
with any maritime power without the commercial towns
forcing the adoption of that plan upon the Government of
the day, whether the defences now proposed were executed
or not. (Hear, hear.) He would therefore venture to pro-
pose that the vote be postponed.
Viscount PALMERSTON observed that mere floating-
defences could never be so applicable at a moment's notice,
or so effectual as defences on shore. During the Lanish war
the Duke of Coburg, by means of an earthwork battery
which he had erected on the land, and armed with field
pieces, succeeded in destroying a frigate and a man-of-war,
and certainly he did not think that the people of Bristol
would feel very comfortable if they reflected that their de-
fences were in Cork Harbour or Milford Haven, cr at Ply-
mouth. (A laugh.) A fleet of gunboats stationed at a dis-
tance might be delayed in the hour of peril, and when it
came it might prove less powerful than the force against
which it had been summoned. (Hear.) If in the opinion
of military men an efficient defence could be provided by
the vote, it was not reasonable to take exception to the small-
ness of the amount. (Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. NEWDEGATE and Colonel
SYKES,
The committee divided—
For the amendment 36
Against it •
Majority for the original vote.. —6o
Mr. ADDERLEY said the house passed a very import-
ant vote two da3 s ago, and he wished to know whether the
Government were practically going to act on those resolu-
tions, and if so, how they could reconcile asking that even-
ing for a vote which seemed to be in contradiction of a vote
made the day before yesterday. The most objectionable
item in this vote was that of £15,000 for the continuation
of a work which had already cost £140,000, he meant the
fortification of the island of Mauritius. He might also=
. glance at the vote of fortifications for St. Helena. He called
upon the Government to defend these votes, or he would
support the hon. member for Montrose if ho fulfilled his
intention of taking the sense of the house on the second part
of the resolution he moved the day before yesterday.
Mr. MONSELL wished to call attention to another vote,
that for the lonian Islands. The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had given most important evidence on this subject.
He said that at the time of his visit he had made a point of
inquiring particularly into the state of defence of the lonian
Islands, and his deliberate opinion was, that they were
worse than useless; that they would require an immense
body of men to defend them, and that they were within only
30 hours of Malta, from whence, if we had the command of
the sea, they might be defended by our navy. He wished
to ask whether this veto ought to be inserted.
Mr. COX said that the same question might be extended
to N ewfoundland, for which there was a vote of £l,OOO ;
and to New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, for which there
was a vote of £lO,OOO.
Sir G. C. LEW IS wished to relieve the Government
from any imputation of unfairness. The resolution of the
4th March was to the effect that whilst the house fully recog-
nised the right of the colonies to receive aid from the
mother-country, it was of opinion that the colonies, having
the right of self-government, ought to furnish the means
of providing for their own security. But as to the latter part
of the resolution, the Government distinctly said they could
not agree to it. With regard to the Mauritius, he wished to
say thateit was not the intention of the Government to ask
the house to vote the sum of £49,000, included in the sth
column as the sum required for the further defence of the
island. That was inserted merely that the history of the
transaction might be complete, and the vote would not be
asked for. With respect to Newfoundland and Nova Scotia
those defences were agreed upon at a time when there was
an alarm of hostilities with the United States. It was re-
presented to the Government that these places were very
inadequately defended. Tho immediate urgency had no
doubt passed away, but the Government still intended to
ask for those votes, unless any hon. member expressed any
good reason to the contrary.
Sir S. M. PETO moved the reduction of the vote by
£5,500, the amount proposed to be voted for the lonian
Islands.
Sir G. C. LEWIS explained that there had been a re •
armament of the fortifications at Corfu ; that larger guns
had been brought into use, and had necessitated larger ma-
gazine accommodation.
Sir S. M. PETO withdrew his amendment, and the vote
was agreed to.
Upon the next vote of £158,118 to defray the charges of
civil buildings,
Mr. NEWDEGATE remarked that there was a great
desire on the part of the manufacturers of arms in Birming-
ham that their manufactures should be inspected by a per-
son independent of the Enfield establishment.
Sir G. C. LEWIS had no reason to believe that the head
of the Enfield manufactory exercised any undue influence
as inspector of Birmingham manufactured arms, but would
bear in mind the remark of the hon. gentleman, :and take
care that the matter received proper consideration.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of £677,955 for barracks, &c., being put,
1 Mr. SELWYN moved the reduction of the estimate by

the sum of £10,787, the amount proposed to be expended
on the enlargement of the college at Sandhurst.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that last year a sum of £15,000
had been voted for the purpose of providing accommodation
at Sandhurst. Of that sum £953 had been actually expended,
so that the sum now asked and the sum already laid out
would not in fact amount to the vote agreed to last year.
Mr. BRUCE observed that the vote of last year was
carried by a very narrow majority. He was also of opinion
that the system of compulsory education adopted was bad
in principle.
Mr. WALPOLE thought that the education of young
men at the various universities ought not to be interfered
with, as it would be if the system condemned by those who
had preceded him were carried out. It was calculated to be
eminently useful to young men intended for one profession
to mix with those who were intended for their calling.
After a few words from Sir H. VEItNEY and Sir M.
IIIDLEY,
For the amendment Bl
Against it
The vote as reduced by the above decision was agreed to,
and the Chairman was ordered to report progress, the con-
sideration of the army estimates to be resumed on Monday
next.