The Sun.
London, England, 1853-07-29 00:00:00

THE SUN: LONDON, FRIDAY EVENcINGTTLY 29, 185 3.

ing than to' see a Freetrader at bay. (Laughter.) The had been taken by surprise. He moved that the chairman
hon. gentleman had fought most gallantly in the painful report progress.
circumstances and the perilous position in which he was Mr. HUTCHINS also thought. it unfair to press this in-
placed. The honourable member had read them a lee- crease of salary without ti ce
hire not merely on Indian legislation, but really on legis- Lord J. RUSSELL d gal'that, if there was any wish on
lation in general. He had told them that there were the part of the house to ha ve further time, the Govern-
very few subjects which the House of Commons ought to ment were quite ready to consider this clause on the third
would agree presume to meddle with ; and without too mach con-
fidence in himself there were few subjects on which the motion for reporting progress. 1
hon. gentleman was not ready to offer them his advice. beginning a great
There had been from the
reading, and for that purpose he to the
deal of debate whether the salary of the
(Renewed laughter.) He (Mr. Disraeli) must protest directors had not been placed too low. Many hon. mem-
against the analogy which the hon. gentleman had drawn , hers had expressed themselves of the same opinion with
between the law which prohibited the production of to- the noble lord (Stanley) that the salary of the directors
bacco and that which regulated the production of salt in was too low. Their observations seemed to have a great
India. According to the learned gentleman they were deal of force and ,truth, and the increase was agreed to
perfectly analogous—nay, more, they were identical ; but rather in consequence
of what was said by hon. members,
`the hon. gentleman seemed to forget
that in India, at least, whoappeared to give good reasons for their opinion, than
the people were permitted to produce salt ; but the people
of this country were not permitted to produce tobacco ;and
that, be thought, was a very considerable difference. from any desire on the part of the Government for the in-
.
, crease in
was,question. The question that he wished the house
i to decide which was the best way of obtaining the
1 services of the best men in the government of India. If
Mr. LOWE—There is no monopoly in either case.
the directors were to have the disposal of so many millions
Mr. DISRAELI was not aware that he had used the of men and the revenues of India, the house ought not, for
word " monopoly." The honourable gentleman had had the sake of 5001. a year, to lose the services of men who
experience of other popular assemblies besides the present, could govern India with the greatest wisdom. Many of
and in those assemblies, he believed, the members were
;the men who came from India, and who lei ht
salary of
ht be offered
rather more in the habit of interposing their remarks in the situation of director, might say, that
debate than was customary in this country. The hrt; ;
pense of living in London without a loss of income. 5001. would not enable them to incur the additional ex-
gentleman, following that practice, was always ready with
They might therefore decline accepting the post of di-
butgstions, which were, of course, always interesting
sometimes, when one was speaking, they were incon- rector, and say that they meant to live in a cheaper
venient. (Laughter.) He (Mr, Disraeli) wanted tetbring part of the country. The real intention of the clause
the attention of the house to the right point before
it r, . was to secure the services of the best men who could
He wanted to prevent them from being diverted from
y govern India well. He agreed that the patronage at-
such considerations as the noble lord who had just ad- tached to the office of director went for something in the
dressed them had introduced to their notice . Was it, or consideration of their recompense. Patronage was a power,
was it not, the fact that the present state of the law and and the being enabled to obliged a man whom a person in
of the fiscal regulations of India with respect to the pro- office considered worthy added to the consideration in
duction of salt was an enormous grievance, tending to the which he was held. He did not allude to the bestowal of
degradation of the population of that country ? If that
was so, had they a fair chance of thi vil being successfully
se patronage in a sordid sense and from sordid motives, but a
man liked to be in a position to give a reward to persons
dealt with by the Indian authorities . If, as he maintained, whom he thought deserving, and to choose among his fel-
they could not indulge that hope, was it the duty of Far- low-citizens the persons he considered worthy to fill situa-
liament to interpose ? And if it was the duty of Parlia-
ment to interpose, when could they have a happier oppor- 1 tions of power and responsibility. (Hear, hear.)
1 The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the house
tunity or a more befitting occasion than when they were
deliberating on the best mode of governing India ? That resumed.
The bill was ordered to be read a third time to-day
he believed to be a true description of the question then (Friday).
before them ; and, if so, it was one of great responsi- LATE SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE.
laity, from which he, fur one, had not the courage to
regulating the The Clerk was proceeding, at half-past 1 o'clock, to read
shrink. The evils of the present system of
the remaining orders of the day, 28 in number, when 1
manufacture of salt were as great national evils as any
which the imagination of man could well picture. He had Mr. BROTHERTON, amid Cheering from all' sides of the
house, rose and moved that the house do now adjourn. He
not heard the evils of the systeth depreciated even by hon.
retested against going into the //consideration of any new
gentlemen opposite. With the exception of some phrases
pretested
at that time of night. (Cheers.) He had abstained,
by the President of the Board of Control, to which, per- of late, from interfering to move the adjournment of the
haps, he hardly annexed the import they certainly bore, he house, because he considered that he might as well attempt
had not heard any attempt made, nor seen any inclination to stop the tide. He had for 20 years perseveringly endea-
in any hon. member, to pretend for a moment that the fiscal voured to bring the house to observe reasonable hours. (A
regulations respecting the manufacture of salt was not one laugh, and hear, hear.) The attempt was now beyond his
of the greatest evils that could possibly exist. Well, then,
strength; but h
w really hoped that, next session, some mea-
as it the wish of the House of Commons that these evils
sure w
should be permanent, and that there should be no attempt
ould be ado ted to prevent a repetition of such late
to remedy them ? Had they well considered the cense- sittings. (Cheers.)p If the house, next session, did not
quences of a population in a chronic state of bad health— 1 adjourn at midnight, he would recommend those gentle-
(a laugh)—because, although gentlemen might smile, that 1 men who constituted the fourth estate in that house (look-
ing up at the reporters' gallery), to shut their books and
was the fair conclusion that must be drawn from authentic
documents in their possession? (Hear, hear.) He had leave the house. (Cheers.) If they did so, he felt certain
it would cause hon. members to abridge their speeches.
heard some sneers about his right hoe. friend standing up (Hear, hear.) The house had now been sitting 13 hours
for the interests of his constituents in the motion he had and a 'half. This might be done now and then, but when,
brought forward. He had been astonished to hear those as had frequently happened of late, the house sat 14, 15,
sneers from the Secretary to the Board of Control and and 16 hours, the labour was beyond what human nature
others. He hoped that, on both sides of the house, they could endure.
were sufficiently enlightened, when their attention was The house cheered, and the clerk went on to the nestt
drawn to the consideration of a topic by those who were order of the day.
interested in it, not to be misled by the representations ~ ENTRY OF SEAMEN BILL.
that were made to them on behalf of a limited body of This bill was read a third time and passed.
human beings. But he denied that they had on this ques- DUTIES ON HORSES LET FOR HIRE BILL.
Lion the consideration of what constituency the member This bill passed through committee.
represented who brought a question of this kind under HACKNEY CARRIAGE DUTIES BILL.
their notice., He thought he knew his right hon. friend In committee on this bill.
pretty well, and he felt sure that it was something beyond Mr. LOWE (for Mr. FITZROY), brought up a clause to
the mere interests of the constituency of Droitwic which enact that, where more than two persons ride in a cab 6d.
had animated him in the able appeal he had that night shall be charged for each person more than two for the
made to the house. (Hear.) He should like to ask some whole hiring. This provision, he said, had been prepared
enthusiastic Freetrader who was opposed to him, whe- before the recent strike.
;titer, when the hon. member for Stockport, or any other Sir D. NORREYS asked, if this clause had not been en-
;hon. gentleman who represented the interests of Lance- acted in consequence of the late strike, why had not notice
shire came forward, and called on them to repeal the been given of it?
duties which regulated the importation of foreign corn The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
10 years ago, they would hare thought it a conclusive an- the intention of the Under-Secretary had been simply that
swer to suclia gentleman to say, that he was advocating the Legislature should put itself quite in the right towards
the interests of his constituents, and that the only object the cab interest, while it showed its determination not to
he had in view in the course he was taking was to benefit depart from what it considered just towards the public
those whom he immediately and particularly represented Sir J. SHELLEY rose to corroborate the statement of
in that house? (Hear, hear.) Indeed, whatever might be the right hon. gentleman. He had that afternoon been
their opinions on this subject—whether they considered it present at a deputation of cab proprietors who had waited
in a philanthropic or in a purely commercial light, he was on the Under-Secretary of State, .and he had heard that
surprised that any one, and especially that a Minister of deputation state positively that the resolution just read
the Queen, holding the responsible office of President of from the chair, had been laid before them previous to the
that department which peculiarly presided over the for- occurrence which had lately taken place, and the reason of
tunes of India, should consider it the happiest retort, and the delay in bringing it before the house had been a mere
the most felicitous repartee he could make, that such a question as to the wording of the clause, which had only
motion had been introduced in such a manner as to show been settled a short time ago. He certainly hoped that her
that the right hon. gentleman was thinking only of the Majesty's Government would not give way on this occasion.
interest of his constituents. He argued from such an (Hear.) As one of the metropolitan members, he had been
answer as this that the case which the right hon. gentleman very anxious to see any just demands which the cab
the President of the Board of Control rose to support was proprietors might have, met in a proper spirit and settled
not one of .the strongest that had ever been placed before if possible ; but, at the same time, he was bound to say
the House of Commons. He should now leave the house that the circumstances under which they now came
to decide the question on the broad merits of the case, such before the house were very materially altered by the
as he had endeavoured, very feebly he was aware, to place course which they had pursued. (Hear.) He thought the
before them. (Hear, hear.) most dignified course for the house to pursue would be to
The house then divided, and the numbers were— look upon these men now as entirely out of court ; when
For the clause
Against it
Majority against the Government —lO they had might be redressed in a fair spirit. (Hear, hear,
The clause was then added to the bill. and cries of " No !")
Mr. BLACKETT then proposed the following clause : Mr. SPOONER quite agreed with the Chancellor of the
" That the President of the Board of Control, or, in his Exchequer that this question must be treated as a question
absence, some Other member of her Majesty's Government, of justice, and without any reference to what had taken
shall, in every session, make a statement to the House of place. (Hear.) He was one of those who believed with the
Commons on the subject of the Indian finances, on some hon. baronet the member for the University of Oxford that
day subsequent to the presentation of the annual Indian they ought not to have fixed the fares, without evidence
accounts." - before them that those fares were just. (Hear.) His con-
Lord J. RUSSELL said, the clause was a very unusual viction was then, and it still continued the same, that it
one. The hon. member proposed that the President of the was not just to require them to go for a sixpenny fare at
Board of Control should make a speech every year. Why all. (Hear, and cries of "No !") Ho was perfectly certain
not specify how long the speech should be? (Laughter.) that if they had gone into an inquiry, they would have
Whether 10 minutes or a quarter of an hour ? (Laughter.) been convinced that it was impossible for the cabmen to
He really thought it was not a matter for legislation, and get a fair profit at that price. (Hear, and cries of "No !")
he must therefore object to the clause being brought up. When hon. 'members used the argument that the cabmen
Mr. HUME was surprised at the noble lord. (Laughter.) would get twice as many fares at the reduced price as they
Many years ago it was the practice of the Indian Minister could have done at the old one, they must remember that,
to make a financial statement to the house, and he cunsid- though it might be a very fair one as regarded machinery,
ered that the Governments had in recent years failed in it was scarcely one which could apply to cabs, where two
doing their duty in that respect. He should have thought horses would be required to go over the increased distances,
that the noble lord would have said that he had no hesita- and where the wear and tear of the vehicles would be so

tion in bringing Indian matters annually before the House
of Commons. He hoped the noble lord would reconsider
the subject. If there were any objection on the ground of
such statements occupying the time of the house he would
suggest that no man should be allowed to speak more than
an hour.

much greater. In fact the expenses would be found to in-
crease in the same ratio as the fares they got. He wished
to ask the Government whether they would consent to in-
troduce a clause, which he really thought was just—that
them should be no sixpenny fare at all (cries of " Oh !"
and " Hear") ; but that the fare should be ls. for every-

Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to a statement of
the Indian finances being made. Ho admitted that it was
a very useful practice, to require such a statement ; but
what he objected to was the making it the subject of a
clause in an act of Parliament. Why not, upon the same
principle,•require the Chancellor of the Exchequer by act
Of Parliament to make his yearly statement
Mr. DISRAELI begged to suggest that if the President
of the Board of Control made an annual statement of the
Indian finances he should be required to state the sums in
pounds sterling, and riot in sicca rupees. (A laugh.)
The clause was then put and negatived.,
Mr. WIGRAM moved the following clauses
" No law or regulation made by the Governor-General
in Council under the powers of the statute of 3d and 4th
of William IV., c. 85, s. 43, shall be invalid by reason only-
that the same affects any. prerogative of -the . Crown, pro-
vided such law or regulation shall have received the pre-
vious sanction of the Crown, signified under the Royal
sign manual of her Majesty, countersigned by the Presi-
dent of the Board of Commissioners for the Affairs of

thing under two miles. When they came to consider that
they required the service of a horse and man for however
little distance they went, he was sure they must allow that
6d was too little.
Mr. GROGAN said that, if he understood the clause
rightly, it was to allow cabs, which were only licensed to
carry two, to break the law by carrying more, and get ad-
ditional fare for it. He had no objection to the' cabs car-
rying more than two, but he did-not like to see it put in
the light of an infraction of the law.
Mr. LOWE pointed out that to carry two meant that
they were not to be compelled to carry more than two, and
not that they were to be limited to carrying two only.
Mr. FREWEN thought that they were knocking under
to the great proprietors by amending the act in this man-
ner. It was notorious that it was not the men who owned
one or two cabs who had organised and were carrying on
this strike, but the large cab proprietors--(Hear)—and it
would be far better for the house to adjourn the conside-
ration of this question for a few days, and when the cab
proprietors came to their senses no doubt the house would
entertain any reasonable proposal for the relief of any real
grievance under which they might be suffering.
Captain MAGAN said, that considering the manner in
which the hon. member for North Warwickshire had been
treated by a cabman last year, it certainly was very disin-
terested of him to advocate their cause with such, spirit.
(A. laugh.) It was the duty of that house to protect the

" All fines and penalties incurred by the sentence or or-
der of any court of justice within the territories under
the government of the East India Company, and all
forfeitures for crimes of any real or personal estate within
the said territories, and all real and personal estate within
the said territories escheating or lapsing for want of an heir

or successor, and all property within the said territories
devolving as bona racantia for want of a rightful owner,
shall, as part of the revenues of India, belong to the East
India Company, in trust for her Majesty, for the service
of the Government of India. Provided also, that the Go-
vernor-General in Council, and any other person or per-
sons who may be authorised by any act passed in that be-
half by the Governor-General in Council, shall have power
(in cases Where the same may appear suitable and proper)
to make any grant or disposition of any property so accru-
ing by forfeiture, escheat, or otherwise, to or in favour of
any relative or connexion of the person from whom the
same shall have accrued, or to or in favour of any other
person or persons."
Sir C. WOOD said he had no objection to the clauses.
The clauses were then added to the bill.
Sir H. MADDOCK moved the following clause :
" Whereas the territories of British India are a portion of
the dominions of the British Crown, and the native and
European inhabitants thereof are her Majesty's subjects,
the Government of the said territories as carried on in
India, and the administration of justice therein, shall,
from and after the passing of this act, be in the name of
her Majesty, her heirs and successors, and all public acts
of the Government of India shall be done and executed by
the Governor-General in Council, in the name of her Ma-

pnblic against those men, and, as they held licences for
the benefit of the public, ho would suggest that this would
be a very fitting opportunity to insert some provision in
the bill to prevent persons holding licences ever again re-
sorting to such a combination. (Hear.)
Mr. B. CARTER suggested, that as there was a bill now
before the house relating to the Dublin carriages, a provi-
sion in it which gave power to the police authorities, with
the consent of the Recorder, to vary the fares according as
circumstances might require, should be introduced into
this bill, substituting the Under Secretary for the Recorder.
Mr. F. SCULLY wished to know whether the additional
6d. for every person was to be for the whole distance, or
only per mile.
Mr. LOWE—For the whole distance.
Mr. F. SCULLY—In that case there could be no objec-
tion to the clause. He thought the whole question ought
to be considered with great cars, and he himself was pre-
pared with a clause which, be thought, would prevent the
recurrence of the present deplorable state of things.
Mr. O'BRIEN thought the cab proprietors ought to have
followed the example of their fellows in Dublin, who re- I
presented their case fairly and calmly to the authorities,
and by that means succeeded in getting provisions intro-
duced into the bill which met their wishes. (Hear.)
Mr. C. HO WARD reminded the Government that this

jesty, her heirs and successors." -
Sir C. WOOD observed that, as the house was aware,
this question had been raised and discussed in the com-
mittee—(hear, hear)—and, if the clause were agreed to, the
bill would be absolute nonsense. (Hear, hear.)
The clause was then negatived.
Sir C. WOOD said he had given notice some time ago of
his intention to bring up two clauses fixing the qualifica-
tion and salaries of the directors. Objections had been
made'to the large money qualification now required, and he
thought it very desirable that the qualification should be
reduced. He considered, also, that it was most desirable
that all the directors should possess the same qualification.
He therefore proposed a clause reducing the qualification
of elected directors from 2,000 g. to 1,0001., and enacting
that all directors, whether elected or appointed, should
have that qualification, and should be required to make a
declaration that they were in possession of stock to such
an amount.

clause did not apply to that very useful class of carriage,
the Hansom cabs.
Mr. LOCKE thought, with the hon. member for North
Warwickshire, that justice ought to be done in this case in-
dependent of the present state of things. (Hear, hear.)
When the conduct of the Dublin cabmen was contrasted
with that of the London cabmen, it must be remembered
that the latter had never had an inquiry referred to them.
He thought it would be much more consistent to leave the
responsibility of arranging the matter in the hands of the
Government, but he entertained a strong opinion that the
scale of fares laid down in the bill was not remunerative.
(Cries of "No," and " Hear.") He certainly thought that
at least an inquiry into its justice should have been made
before such a reduction was attempted.
Lord D. STUART agreed with' ltese who thought the
house ought to resist anything like a concession to clamour.
He lamented very much the state of things out of doors,
and chiefly fur the sake of the persons who had occasioned

After a words from Mr. BLACKETT, the clause was
agreed to.

that state'of things, for there could be no doubt that the
porsons engaged in the cab trade would be thosewhowould

1 SiiC
__,e-
of .iv OOD then proposed a clause, fixing the sala-
ries
each ofthe chairman and deputy-chairman at 1,5001., and
trodu _.tlae directors at 1,0001. a-year. He moved the in-
ellen of the clause with the space for the amounts in
blank, leaving The elansettoTs filled up in committee on the clause.
een road,
Mr. HAUFIEL having
increase in the salaries
objected to it. He was opposed to any
Of the directors, as it was well un-
deraoo(l that their emolumentt was really to be found in •
the objectionable 9v stem of patronage.
Mr. IILACKET.T3
concurredagn in the objection to the
clause, and would vote
the directors both by salary LT' He objected to paying •
M. HUTCHINS and Mr. Wiltnag
notice had been given of the amonnteom
posed to be given to the directors.
Mr. .IIIILNES thought hon. gentlemen ePlained that no
of salary now pro-
.coln_ernitted an
error in confounding patronage with salary,
posing of patronage derived no pecuniary advantageir die-
it. The patronage of which the Secretary to the Treafsruormy
disposed was enormous, but would any one, for that reason,-
say'he ought to have no salary ?
*Mr. SPOONER said the question of the amount of
salary must be consijered in committee.
Mr. MANGLES protested against a pecuniary value
being set ti,am the patronage, ‘liiieh the directors took a
soleien oath before God nut to dispose of for a pecuniary
consideration.
The house then went into committee.
On the proposal to till up the blank with the salary of
1,5001. per annum for the chairman of the Court of Di-
rectors,
Mr. THORN-ELY- pressed, for the adjournment of the
ciustiou, on the G-rouatl- that his hone friends around hila

suffer the moat inconvenience from the strike. In taking
such a course they had been ill-advised, but at the same time
he could not help reminding hon. gentlemen that the pre-
sent difficulty, and the public annoyance experienced, had
been brought upon the house by their own conduct. If
the select committee asked for had been granted, all the
details connected with the matter would have been properly
examined, and the mistake would not have been made-
which had involved us in so much difficulty. Another
time, in legislating, the house should remember the good
old proverb, "The more haste, the less speed." (Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it
was not desirable now to reopen the subject of sixpenny
fares, and that it was much better either at once to decide
on the subject before the house, or agree to postpone it for
future consideration, rather than proceed with a discussion
upon the general merits of the question. (Hear, hear, and
cries of " Go on.")
Mr. GROGAN feared the clause would give power to '
the drivers to convey and indefinite number of persons, and
moved that the chairman do report progress and ask leave
to sit again.
Mr. LO WE was told that the clause was rightly worded,
but, if it were not, it would be open to the house to recon-
sider the wording of the clause upon the report.
. Mr. V. SCULLY considered that the matter involved a
great constitutional principle, not only as regarded the
cabmen of London but other classes of the community, and
the idea ought ,not to be allowed to get abroad that if men
turned out in this way they were to have their clamour
listened to at once. (Rear, hear.) It was a principle
which, if yielded to, must spread far and wide, and there
was no telling where it might end. This strike was a sort
of petty rebellion, and' tkit Gina meat ponied to think