The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1825-04-02 00:00:00

Did it happen to you to hare ray conversation with any of the
lower class upon the subject of those laws ?—Not during my last
tour; I do not think I had much conversation with the lower orders
upon that occasion.
Is it not a matter of complaint the tenets that Catholics arc
obliged to abjure in the oaths they take ?—I have heard it cam.
plained oft but candour obliges me to say, that there is in history
proof that among some Roman Catholics, some very obnoxious
tenets were formerly held ; such as the deposing power; and in my
humble judgment, a Roman Catholic ought not to feel offended, If
he be called upon to disclaim doctrines or positions which strike et
the civil independence of the Stale, and which, thcugis they never
formed any part of the Roman Catholic faith, were yet at one time
taught by authorities in the Roman Catholic Church ;'but these
doctrines'are now universally exploded in these countries ; and I
should certainly wish to see one simple oath of rill?gianie este.
blished for all the King's subjects, Protestant and Roman Catholic.
Can you give the Committee any information with regard to the
proportion which the Catholic population beans to the Protestants ?
-.1 cannot of my own knowledge.
In general, from the information you have acquired. do yen feel
any reason to doubt the accuracy of the common mode of assuming
the proportion that the Catholics bear to Protestants, to be in
the ratio of six to one ?—1 must confess I am rather disposed to
doubt that ; I should not think six, perhaps five ; but I speak
very loosely.
Have instances come before you of the sub-letting of land to any
great extent ?—Yes.
Do you find that to be at all a general practice P—Very general,
and as mischievous as it is general.
In what way do you consider it to be mischievous do not
think that the man who sub-lets, has that sort of feeling towards
the persons to whom he lets, that the proprietors of the land would
have ; at least that the proprietor of the land in England would
have. I know that from my own experience of tie manner In
which landed property is managed in this country.
Have you any means of forming a judgment, whether the Roman
Catholic Clergy would be pleased if they were not supposed to be
surrendering the principles of the laity, to accept a provision from '
the State ?—My opinion certainly is, that, accompanied with the
settlement of the Roman Catholic Question, and so regulated as
not to prejudice their independence, they would receive a provision
from the State with gratitude ; that is the opinion which I have
formed from conversations with them particularly with the su-
perior Clergy ; ant( my own opinion is, that it is a thing which, in
the event of a setdiment of the Catholic Question, would be most
desirable.

Do you think sticit a provision being made for them. would be
attended with any bkneficial effect, in attaching the lower class of,
people to the state snd Government of the country ?—1 think it
would produce a godd feeling amongst them ; it would make them
understand that their Church was not looked upone with any hostile
feeling. but the contrary ; I think it would also be a very great re.
lie to them, because I believe that the dues which are collected
from the lower class of people by the Roman Catholic Clergy. are
felt very heavily; I do not mean to censure the Roman Catholic
Clergy for collecting these dues ; they are their only means of sub.
sistence ; but 1 believe the payment of them is often felt very se-
verely by the lowa orders.
Do yen think that the settlement of what you call the Roman
Catholic Question, and the making a provision for the Roman Ca-
tholic Clergy, such as they would be willing to accept of, would,
or not, be calculated to give additional security to the Protestant
establishment in Ireland ?—I think that settlement, upon wise and
sound principle', would be above all others a measure calculated to
give strength to the Establishment, and repose to the country ; I
think the present state of the law is obviously erroneous ; it is cal-
culated nor to secure, but to endanger the Establishment ; it creates
bad feelings, and affords no security against them. The Act of
1793 took things at the wrong end; it elevated the lower orders,
and left the higher in a state of depression. The security of the
Protestants in Ireland is in the strength of property against num-
bers ; what you have done is to grant to the Roman Catholics a
privilege in which number tells against property, and to withhold
a privilege in which property tells against number ; you allow the
lowest orders of the people to vote, and you do not allow the higher
orders to sit. I certainly should consider, in the settlement of the
Catholic Question, if ever it is to be settled, that the qualification
for the exercise of the elective franchise in counties, ought to be
reviewed and altered. . .

Do you think that a raising of the qualification that should entitle
the freeholder to vote would be calculated to meet the mischief you
have adverted to ?-1 think it would in • very great degree.
Though 1 am a Roman Catholic, I speak with a sincere desire.
that whenever the Catholic Question is settled, the rights of the
Established Church should be secured • and I think they would be
secured in proportion as you increased the political power of pro-
perty, converted public discontent into satisfaction, and engaged the
Catholics in the service of the State, by adequate honours and re-
wards. This would attract all the hopes and desires of the Catholics
to the State, and would counteract any bias they might have against
the Church, which is connected with the State, by an indissoluble
union, and must therefore stand or fall with it.
Do you think that such an arrangement ►ould be injurious to'.
those fair interests which the Roman Catholics are entitled io have'
in the country ?-111y notion is, that the Roman Catholics ought':
not to have an interest according to their number, but according to
their property. Under that impresrion I think that it would not
injure any power or influence which they ought fairly to have in
the State: coupled, however, with measures which would place
them in what I conceive to be the situation and estimation in which
their property. ought to place them.
If a provision were made for the Roman Catholic Clergy by the
State, is it your opinion that the influence of the Priesthood over
their locks would he thereby materially diminished ?—1 do not
think any wholesome influence that the Priest has oveibis flock
would be diminished.
Have the Catholic Clergy at present any other provision than
that which they derive from the voluntary payments of their Lets?
—None.

The fee upon marriage u one of their principal resources?—
It ie.

It is usually that for which the h:gheit price is paid ?—I under-
stand 80.
In your opinion, has that circumstance any inguence in pro-
ducing early and 'motor:de::: marriages ?—There one must speak
again with reference to the wart of man: if the priest gains
by early mstriages: there la noshing more likely to encourage
heta.

Is it mot the opinion that such is the effect of It f—/ hon.
the pedants assert the contrary.
Dote your experience enable you to say whether it hit Wee F.llhe
use. for the Catholic freeholders, genenilly, to vote at
accordiag to the wish of their Proves:act landlord ?—Forfier
believe it used ; latterly, religimis feelings, I am told..
curie the tenant away from the landlord: particularly deff:eirlitlilli-
eetivity of the clergy, who ere stimulated by the Increasing agar.
oesa of the laity for ernancipatiao.
Is it your opinion, then, that the influence of religioe ant Sal - • I
priest would be stronger than the influence of the Protestant Mtn& •
lord ?---,,ipeaking from revs, I should say, yea. I have bird at
an. of interference at the Dublin election, the Leitrim rift-risco/at •
the Sligo eleotioa, and other places. When you speak of raising the qualification of electors, de So.
in your idea, limit it only to freehold leases; or would you or.
that in a county the qualifiostioo of a man having thee" Otitis
fatty-shilling freehold, should be raised also p-r
entirety to persons who derive cadet leases; If 54:11VVIIIirad . '
ownership of property, I should say he engin to be
vote, because be is a proprieree—the leaseholder la eat;
that to be one of the great distinctions between the 7
freeholderfreholdTa in in Englandiser iilhaundal nrolrelanydoif i;limEnogilirdwo forty - :
Is Ireland it 111 quite the contrary. that
Supposing a lesser pays to his landlord a rent of five poUt4 es
yew, he ought to be Able to get out of that property a rent of Weer -• .
peon&ain a year, in order so give him a forty shilling interest ink P.-. -e-
Certly.
.. Do you believe that theists generally the case with respect tf MD' •
, •e•
ileac class of freeholders ?—I believe quite the contrary. In •
atelier pay why is originally a rack rent for the land, thed
read huts upon it- and if they make eat of the land a i
of shilling' $ year. a profit produced by the sweat of
; they eccoscile themselves to swear that they have an it ; -•
the extent of 4erty 'highness year. white*, the glair' •':.
produced, not Ih:cog's an interest in the land, bet through-Bede ..
C.
..
Se that io point of fact, when their interest comes to be examine& •
by this test, it is not an interest bone Me of forty shillings s-leer ? 7
..Quite the contrary • I referred in a former part of my evidence
Ito cases that were before me upon receivers' accounts in Ireland ;
,rilirie
I found frequently, that a great mass of tenants who were in geese
in consequence of holding at exotbiusat rents, had sworn tolorty
shilling freeholds.
Have you ever considered what amount of qualification for tiet
exercise of the elective franchise would suit the present state of
Ireland I—l ant speaking entirely with reference to leaseholders,
and speaking with regard to leaseholders, I may, perhaps, be coo- .. •
sidered too aristocratical in my notion, but I should say the gosh. •
fication ought to be, to the extent of twenty pounds a-year.
Do you think, generally speaking, that the forty shilling free-
holders-exercise any free choice at elections ?—.llly opinion is that
they have none. -
How do you think thee are controlled ?—1 believe they weet .
controlled either by an absOlutt landlord, or by the sort of oiler.
ference through religious feelings which I Rafe already Inca.
tioned.
Can you state to the Committee the kind of control that is et.
creased Over those forty-abilling freeholders, /0 as inernenaod . .
their votes P—l can speak only frori hearsay • the landlord, of
course, lass the power of (linter; the Priest, or Other partisan, spat
act upon their religious foriinge or prejudices.
Do you believe that those measures which you have slated loss..
likely to be beneficial with respect to the raising the qualificatiO4•.".
voters, ought not to be considered as completely dependent opal• e.s.
being combined with their complete emanciy,atiosp ~that is, do ye* .7'.
conceive that the raising the.nualifications, and depdving, of uncle I
the forty-shilling freeholder of-Ids righteceuld be stated, 1..
occasioning the most serious discontent, unless it-wae .i .
with the other measure you, have suggested ?—1 have alreadi4.-,„„
think, stated an opinion, which must be considered as an answer A.., ,
the affirmative to that question; at the same time," should with ..; •
to understand what is meant by emancipation, in the question no, .....,
put. If, by emancipation, is meant the universal removal of all '..
disabilities, my opinion does not go to that extent, but it does go to ',
the extent of representation in Parliament, and admission to the , ~
Bench. Ido nut think, that if representation in Parliament were . !
conceded, and the Bench were open, that there would be much oh,
......;
jectinu to some extent of exclusion from political office ; the miter
~.•
exclusions, from Parliament and the Bench, me the exclusions patet.•
ocularly felt.
... I.''
Do you think a coneiderable outcry would be raised in Intletlils.. •
If it was proposed to raise the qualitiestioo of forty-shilling free.
holders?—if the forty-shilling freeholders were persons of hide....
pendent property, exercising through their property a free citolarki* •
I think-it would produce a very serious outcry ; but Ido not Oiler'
they are persons of a description likely to have much feeling upon
the subject.
r. Toon your experience, are you able to say whether the feeling of
the greet. body of the lower orders of the people is strong and intlX
upon the subject of what ill generally called thetatholic (animate ?a
. believe it to be eta ;I do not thi4k I ever Spoke to d Rodin
Qttholic, high or lows that did out betray somethiog likes htitatiota
upon the subject.
Can you state what effect the plan of raising the qualifino ton
would have upon the Protestant interest of the country ?---I th'ng
the Protestants constitute, to a very considerable extent, the landed
proprietary interest of Ireland : and tnerefore, in proportion ea you .
increase the power of the proprietary interest, and diminish the
power of mere numbers without property, you strengthen the fru.
intent interest.
Du the Committee understand you rightly to say, that the exist.
ence of Roman Catholic disqualification is a common grievance
which enables the Priests to exercise an influence at an efecilon 1,-4'
It creates a feeling of discontent, of a religious nature, through
which feeling the Priest is enabled powerfully to act at else4laper -..
he is enabled to say to them, for instance, this man is against
your religion, this man is for your religion; I am told he has
said so. • ..
You conceive, that by removing the Roman Catholic rEsqualif.
cation you would deprive the Priest of that power ?.—I do not thinA.
I should entirely ; I should lessen the temptation to the exercise 0 '
it, and I should diminish the power also, by setting at rest the CAW
tholic Question, and raising the qualification from *Lb taw. :
year, or to such sum at least as would raise the class of freehaldece •
entitled to vote, so as to render them, in some degree, prisons of it-
telligence and property, likely to have a will of their non.
Would not the exclu.inn of all freeholders under 201. • yearex.
chide a great number of persons who have considerable capita: on
their farms ?—I do not think it would.

The Committee understand you to state, that in mutes in which
persons swear to forty.shilling freeholds, they have, in many in,
stances, little interest, if any, in the lands • do not you concare,
that even in the case of twenty-pound freeholds, persons nape
swear to those freeholds who had a very inferior interest in the Lied,
than that ?—I do not think they would; I think common (Steelier,
and shame, and the obvious means of instant detection, would opt,
rate to prevent it. A man who comes to swear to twenty pon“s
must have some property in his hands.
A man in Ireland, wbo would hate an interest of twenty Ipoelde,*, '
is of a totally different class from the forty-shilliog ft eeholdet ?-,.
Yes.
Would it not, in your apprehension. exclude in towr • a csiasidor••• .
able number of persons who are householders, who have not an ii-
temt above the rent they pay for their houses to the amount se
twenty pounds ?—I have identity stated that I do not mean my co,
serration to apply to towns. Are you not aware that a pest number of fatty. shilling floe,. holders, who exercise the right of franchise in Ireland, are not of at
respectable a class as voters from towns ?-1 consider the mass so
be mere rabble.
The Right Reverend James Doyle, D.D. the Romeo COWS;
Bishop of Kildare and Leighlin. . •
Will you state from what sources the income( a Catholic hued
is derived ?—The contributions by individuals residing within his -
parish at particulsr stated seasons of the year, twice in the year.
Is the sum at each period defined and known ? Not defiefd ;
take, for instance, the head of a family who is il fainter. supporta.
and whose family may consist of six or eight persons, all of whom.
are to be attended by the Priest; such farmer pays an English shit,
ling which is thirteen pence in Ireland ; sometimes be ghee two
shillings, and if he be a person in better circumstances, that is
wealthier and more substantial, he may give 10e. about Meanest, •
and 10.. also at Easter : there are ves7 few give more.
Will you tell the Committee how the Catholic Prelate* ate pad?
—We hold one pariah, sometimes two; and we employ clergymen
to perform the ordinary duties in those, we ourselves labourtog col
assist them as much as we can. Besides that, we receive ftom seep
clergyman in the diocese, once a year, a certain contribution 'Lae
instance, 1 hold two parishes, one in Carlow, and the other in Tul-
low, in county Carlow ; I keep three curates employed in each et
those parishes, whom I am obliged to pay, and the little that re-
mains after they are supported, I receive myself: in addition to
that, at Easter, or about that time, I receive from each of the pariett
Priests in the diocese, I think about three guineas, and from elicit
of the Curates about one, and the sum total of my income dented
from those sources is generally between 4.501. and SOO/ a year. 41
the same time, I may be permitted to state to the Contemner, tall
the income of a Bisp is charged with very hemline:camels:
considering its quantity ; for I am obliged to contribute re !Tilt
charitable institution ; to' assist in the erection and tupportir ye •
=kale ; to feed a considerable number of the poor i sad, in NM ,
[if it were not for some help which I occasionally ttweiMe
Moeda, I could not keep a house or a servant. However, t
0 ter number of poor living about me than about moat Went. •
my income is.not so •considerable as thot of many otbtr Bp :sno-
he kingdom.
etta
Is the same mode of paying the Bishops adopted in all parli 4.
trekrul ?-1 believe it is the Mint in neatly all. except that In *Oa*
Igleaelew. particularly in the South of Ireland, the Ilisboparestelye
soodhometveshinagt
mlitne ai. eogootr, AltheutrisfnanonmehtheuZi,reee.c.boo.ols
voter:he.
tfesiba4.ol4:.
nese where 1 live, or In that of Dublin mantel; .
t
heseaki6gthwn'hel'iminse.salieut°:th.yLme°u.:l2l2l:wag.:d:fi.ceilr7l44,ard.astinfhPie:ereora:':Ptet:f aimearaiLtsnsia:cmukna:sba:or, e:::::noiliestlw:h7wlllit7;6l'tilceiel4"eallnthilitatteala.`‘:lo74:27l.-..
small pines amongst the people who wild at the 'riddles, &ma
tech person makes an rffering when he twelves the CAT. Tim