The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1804-06-26 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—MONDAY, JrDa 25.
ADDITIONAI FORCE HILL.

Earl CAMDEN moved the Order of the Day for
the second reading of the Bill for establishiag and
maintaining a permanent additional force for the
defence of the realm, and for supplying His Majes-
ty's regular forces, and for the gradual reduaion of
the Militia of England. His Lordship said, that, in
making this motion, he thought it necessary to re-
quest their Lord-hips' attention and indulgence, till
he, as briefly as possible, explained the nature and
effects of the Bull. He then stated, that it must be
very obvious to their Lordships, that it was extreme-
ly desirable to add, as speedily as possible. a consi-
derable body of men to the regular army; that it had
been found by experience, that the mode adopted la,t
yell-. for raising men foe,an Army of Reserve. had not
answered the purpose for which it was intended, as
it interfered greatly with the recruiting for the regu-
lar army, and ttmded very much to increase the
bounties given for the raising of mein; that the mi-
litia having been increased to a very great amount,
beyond what was the nnmber originally prorosed,
and as this had been found to operate also very consi-
derably towards obstruaing the recruiting for the
regular army, it was meant by this Bill to reduce
the number of the militia from 60,000, at which it
stood at present, to the number of 40,000, which
was its original standard; and that in fourteen days
after passing of this Aft, no man is to be hallotted
for the militia, till, in each count', theNnilitia should
be it-duct-1 below the original quota ; that the
number to be raised for the year ending the first Of
O.lober, 1805, shall be 9000 men annually ; that the
ehnrch-wardens and overseers of the poor, who were
authorised by this Aa, to raise and provide the men
deficient in the respeaive parishes, shall be allowed
a bounty for each man, not suceeding three fourth
parts of the bounty that shall be from time to time
allowed by His Majesty for recruiting the infantry
for general service; such man having been resident
thirty days or more, in the pari,h for which he'should
he produced, or in some other parish in the same
subdivision or hundred, or in some parish in the
same or same adjoining county, not more than ten
miles distant from the parish for which he shall be
found or produced. His Lord hip then gave a ge-
neral description of the remaining provisions of the
Bill, and argued that much might be expeaed from
its operation towards increasing our regular force, as
it would he the means of lowering the very high
prices which had been paid fur men to serve in the
army of reserve, and of lessening at least, if not en-
tirely taking away. the competition, which existed
between that army and the regular army of the
country. lie understood. he said, that it had been
said of this Bill th.it it was highly unconstitutional,
inasmuch as it went to raise a large body of men as
a permanent force Instead of the militia, which was
deemed the more constittnional tUr the defence of the
singdom but he by no means saw it in that point
of view. It was to be tecolleded, that what we
wanted above ever y thing was a large,disposcable.and
well disciplined force ; and as the army of reserve
had failed in producing such a force as was ex-
reaed in the course of last year, he thought this
Bill was a measure that would be attended with very
different effeas ; that it would produce an elf:dire
Tee, and, as such, he could not but give it his
warmest suprort. Having end:tined the general
of the Bill. he said lie would not then tees-
further on the time of tl.eir Lordships, but
:11,1 reserve his fin Cher e!,..-rvations till he should
he it a hat might he Avail; e.l in argument, by way
ur utjvtaion to the Bill ; thoiv,h he could not but
Hatter himself, that the Bill would be found, in gene.
satisf t %Ay to their Lordships, who must all be
%:441,e(1 how very necessary it was to have a large,
and disposeable force, w general service,
rat sect as speedily as possible. His Lordship con.
ended, by saying, that he shou:d be glad to give
explanation on ally parts of the Bill, winch
N ible Lords might require.
The Duke of CLARENCE said, before he pro-
ceeded to make any observations on the Bill, he
should heg leave to return his ..hanks to t:te Nubl:
hectetary of State. who had Just sat dt:‘, n, t' or ;he
very np..n and ear-.did mamcr in which he had
h: aught forward the present Nil Fie di.:.eted,
"ever, in opit.ion from tiro Noble Seeretat y. with
nsvetct to the Frnvi.inr.s tif the Bill, 471..1 the cif:N .t
• uld Le ::ketv to pra.luce. In speak .1.;of th;,
'l. or of any brougit: t...ird by
t! , majesty's he would tit
if L., „,,pp„.o they would deliberately adopt any
.; l that scat not itt..tGational. lie wa, a war ni
,Jsiirer of the. eartst4trition, and oat that body of

- - -- -
armed men in this country, called the Militia, which
was always held to be the constitutional force for
the defence of the country ; hut what had the Mi-
litia to do with the Regular Army, or the Regular
Army with the Militia ? Both were necessary to the
country, in time of ..ear, and perhaps rever more so
than at the present moment. The Bill he held in
his hand, was entitled, .4 A Bill for establishing and
maintaining a permanent additional f rce, for the
defence of the realm, and hit- supplying I lis Majes-
ty's Regular Forces ; and for the gradual redudion
of the Militia of England." He had looked over the
Bill, with every possible care and attention, and had
reason to appiehend that it would by no means be
so efficient as the Ntible Secretary, and the rest of
His Majesty's Ministers, seemed to think it would.
It seemed to him to partake very much of the nature
of the Army of Rei.erve, and, he was afraid, would
not prove much more effedual towards raising men
for the Regular Army than that bad done His
Royal Highness then said there were some of the
clauses which he thought were objedionable. He
thought the appointment of the Inspettor General to
attend the Courts of Lientenncy, and to ass se the
Deem), Lieutenants, would not answer any y
good purpose. The Deputy Lieutenants were Ao-
gestrates and gen.i. men, residing in the re<peetiet
counties, who had hitherto transacted the hu siness of
the counties, both with resped to the Militia, and
every other service very much to the pueire sai ,s-
-fatlion; and the s nii•og the Inspedor Geee al
among them seemed ts, infer that those persons
were not so good as they ought to be, or th it ,hey
had failed in exerting tiseresilves in the diseh.,•ee
of those duties of levying men 1% ith which they had
been intrusted. He was aft 'id at lea.. they m ay he
hurt at such an introdi.dien of ar. Inspector over
their proceedings, and that a effecl, contrary to
that expeCted or wished for from the a, ,eniat.nete.
would be the consequence. By eitnfle r chute; iii
the Bill, Church Wardens and Overseers • f Poor
are instruded, not how to raise men, but how n_t to
raise them. They are told heee to raise them within
a month after the expirari..n o: fourteen days from
the passiiig of the Aft, and for every such man so
Froclaced, not ballot. hut by enlisting, they are to
be entitled to receive such proportion of the bounty
as shall not exceed three fourths of the regular
bomoy for recruiting the infantry for general se--
vice, and the man most have been resident 30 days
or more within the parish for which he shall be pro-
duced, or in some other parish in the same sub-
division or hundred, or in some parish in the same or
some adjoining county, not more than 10 miles
distant horn the parish for which he shall be pro-
duced. These were difficulties which be thought
could not tail to retard the recruiting: and they
were still more increased in the following clause, in
which the Overseers and Churchwardens are liable to
a penalty 01201. in case they exceed such proportion
of the bounty. The men were to be enlisted fors years,
or to the end of the war, to serve in Great ibita
Inland, aril the Islands of Jersey and Guernsey. I le
saw there was no mention of Sark, or the Isle of
Man, and Was at a loss to guess for what purpose
they were left ont. By another clause, he said it
was enafted, that they were not to remain embodied
for more than six months, after the signing a defi-
nitive treaty of pear except by virtue of any ACI
which may be passed for that pui pose. Ile thought
by these words, if any other AR should he passed,:
notwithstanding the oath they had taken, and
which expressly confines them to five years, or the
end of the war, &e. they may be made to serve for
such further and longer term as such future Ads
may dired of appoint. Upon the whole, he thought
the Al was a had one ; that it was, to say the least
of it, novel to the constitution. If the money of
the country were properly employed, there could
not I e the smallest doubt, that the Army
might be recruited, without resortieg to methods
like the present. There were, in his opinion, sta-
tions other modes of calling forth the force of
the country, which were far bct'er and far pre-
ferable to this; and, as such.-,the Bill should have his
decided opposition.
Earl SPENCER said, he had waited tb seewhetber
some Noble Lord, on the opposite side of the House,
would not speak in support of the Bill; but as that
was not the case, it was with considerable reludance
he was obliged to deliver his sentiments on the sub-
jai. He thought the principle of the Bill was so
bigh:y objenctionable, that. though he was firmly of
opinion there was nothing more desirable than to
augment the regular military force of the kingdom,
yet the present measute, professing to have that ob-
jeet in view, fell so far short of a hat it ought to do,
and was, he was convinced, likely to prove so totally
inadequate to the pure ores for which it is
intended, that he could nor, in duty to himself,
and tat' the country, refrain from giving it a
decided iiegltive. He thought and hoped they
world hat: had the means before them of accom-
olishieg .tr;ireable a purpose. The principle of
the 8.11, are nesting to it• title, was to attain its oh.
fret, be raising an additional force, and reducing
the Militia. His Lordship said, he was, and had
always been, a steady friend to the Militia Establish-
ment, on its true and of iginal principle, and to a
certain extent. He was always of opittien, that, to
beiproete ly disciplined and officered as it ought to be,
the Militia should be confined as nearly as possible
to its first establishment. As far, therefore, as the
Bill went towards reducing the Militia to that stan-
dard, he thought it a desireablc object, and it ehotild
.have his approbation and concurrence. But the
principal objea of the Bill was, or ought to he, to ob-
teln as far -e a general firee as possible. It did not,
howevor,cen asr. piovisions that were likely to effec•
teate that. It seemed to he the opinion of Minis-
' tors, that the he t nind.2 of reefuiting was from an
a-:nv of nisi,' ve. In that pint, however, he dif-
fered horn them, and he thought they ought to be
convinced, by the arguments of experience, withwhat
difficulties and expense that kieil of force was
Obt Ai :led. The y, eatest diflii.tilties had beer
thrown in the way of recruiting for general

service by means of the ballot and high boun-
ties. Those were now to he done away, and
would operate in favour of recruiting. He under-
stood, however, that persons entering into the New
Army of Reserve, were to be allowed to enter af-
wards for general service. It would, therefore, be
necessary for them to know the amount of the boun-
ties, in order to form an opinion, whether it will
nut be more for their interest to enter into the Army
of Reserve Grst, by which they will secure to them-
selves a double bounty, and thereby put the public,
or rather the parishes, to a double expence. One
very great objection to the Bill is, that it is a large
and complicated machinery, put in motion wida
great difficulty, to do but little service. lie
thought no considerable number of men would
be raised by this Al, which professed to
hold out inducements to parish officers, and to
tempt them to overlook difficulties ; but instead
of an Ad fo raising a great number of men, it
will be to raise such a sum of money. If this be
the case, his Lordship said, it must fin. prove
inefficient, forth • objeel is expressly said to be the
raising an additional force, not of money, but of
men. If it prove inefficient, then, he said, a ne-
cessary consequence must result from it, that it will
be oppressive. As a tax, it would operate with great
weight, and very uneqvally. It will fall on houses
and land only, when, in point of fairness, it ought
to be raised from the genet al revenues of the country.
The Legislature ought, on the contrary, to lay on
all burdens with as fair and equal a hand as possible.
He insisted that it would be impossible for the over-
seers to find the men ; from which circum tance the
measure could not tail to prove inefficient, and to
became grievously oppressive. He objeded to en-
thing such a complicated mass of machinery, and
to put it in motion for the purpose of harrissing
Churchwardens, Overseers, Deputy Lieutenants,
their Clerks, and all who arc concerned in the busi-
ness. And, after all, ;t must come at last into the
hands of Recruiting Officers, which had much bet-
ter be done in the first instance. It was, he believed,
but this day eight weeks that a Noble Marquis,
whom he did not then see in his place, had been in-
duced to postpone his motion on the Defence of the
Country; had net that motion been somehow or
other got rid off, for what reason he did not know,
their Lordships wou!el have no occasion to be then
debating the present Bill. He was sorry it had so
happened ; but, as a measure of defence, this was
fraught with so many imperfedions, and carried
such broad blemishes in its very face, that he must
express his disapprobation, and give it of course his
decided opposition.
The Duke of MONTROSE said, the nature of
this Bill was such, as to convince him that it would
raise a great number of men, who would, in all like-
lihood, be much alarmed at entering, in the first in-
stance, for general service in the Regular Army. It
had been objetted to on the ground that it would ul-
timately prove inefficient. Whether it would have
the effed of raising as many men as is to be wished
for, he would not attempt to say; hut he had,
however, no doubt in his own mind, that it we.)411
raise a great many. He did hope to h lye seen see
'Feral of the Noble Lords who oppose this sill, unit-
ed in their endeavours to encourage, by every pos-
sible means, the raising of men ; not only to defend
their own country, but to carry the wat--iesto the
heart of that of the enemy. He was sure the men,
when once raised for the Army of Reserve, would
easily be induced to enter for general service, and
he made no doubt but that a great many of
the Yolismeett would do the same. The in-
spedors; against whom so many objedions had
been made, are persons who are appointed to assist
the Deputy Lieutenants, and not to controul them.
It had, on all hands, been allowed, that it was abso-
lutely necessary to encrease our regular army, and
it was only to be done by those means. If they were
led on step by step, there would be mote likelihood
of getting a great number, than if it was proposed to
them to enter for general service at once. He could
not see bow any Noble Lord could have any specific
strong objedion to the Bin. He supposed rather
that it was to the persons who brought it forward,
than to the Bill itself. If so, he would be desirous to
meet that question, and would wish the House to re-
ject the Bill at once, if they have no longer a confi-
dence in His Majesty's Ministers. He would rather
th.:ir Lordships would address His Majesty to remove
them, and should be much better pleased thus to
see the opposition made in a more direct manner,
than through the medium of this Bill. For his own
part, he thought it well calculated to answer all the
purposes for which it is intended; and as such it
should have his cordial support.
The Earl of CA RNA RVON said, the whole
principle of the Bill was of the most pernicious kind ;
while every part of it was charaderised by its share
of evil. He was willing to pass hr that amphibious
animal, created by the Bill, the P irish Reereitit:g
()xi, tr. Ti's enormities of hi; situ:rim were great,
and would deserve to be noticed with particular
severity, if they had been tOund in a Bill of less
atrocity than this. 'I he Bill pretended to be a Bill
for raisins men. He should have great objeftion
to it, if it could raise men in the way proposed.
But it was a 1301 for no such purpose ; intended for
no such purpose. It was a Bill to raise money by
the worst of means, and tinder the most fallacious
pretences. The fine on the parishes was the objeEi
of the Bill ; and while Parliament was discussing the
hope: or fears of raising, or not raising the men,
the Bill held en to its purpose, and in passin7 would
become a parochial tax. But the Bill professed to
do almost every thing, cscept what it really did
Its friends, not much otherwise celebrated as
the friends of a liberal system towards the
people, vaunt of the abolishing the ballot by this
Bill. The ballot, however, is only in another
shape to all but some persons privileged by this
Bill. These privileged persons were those who,
perhaps, ought to be leaq so. They were all place-
men and pensioners. He would appeal to the Nobh -
Lord on the wt-01-sack ; he would pay nett.ter

for his hOriours aad emoluments, whatever he dii
for his patrimohlal estates. By this Bill be would
be relieved from the chance, at least, of paying 3bl.
for a substitute ; and if he paid any thing. it stolid
be for his lands. This was a fundamental objeitiou
to the Bill ; it levied a tax under false pretences, and
levied that tax most partially, exempting perilous
most capable of bearing the burden, and, above all,
those persons who fattened on the emoluments of the
State. The Bill, in every point of view, was uncen•
stitutional. ft was so, among others, in reducing
the Militia below its comparative weight with the
Regular force. For the Militia, be had almost lost
his first love : that force was of a nature he no longtr
cared for, in the degree he formerly did. By. late
alas. the landed qualincations of certain officers were
no longer necessary. He conceived the constitution
of the Militia to be destroyed. Thus mace he said
of the Militia in a constitutional paint of view. But,
as an existing force, of great and most important
value, he objeted to the -Bill for reducing it. Ibis
was, in his mind, a serious evil in she Br *Nis
was bad policy ; but the principal objeaion wow
the atrocious operation of the Bill, its unconstitutional
principle, and its monstrous effeas.
Lord MULGRAVE said. if any thiag was want.
ing to convince him, that the opposition to this Bill
was not given to the princip'e of the Dill, its opera-
tion, or its real chara3er, but to the person who
brought it in, it was the arguments he had heard that
night, and especially those which had been urged
by the Noble Lord who spoke last. The Noble
Earl had not argued to the House, he bad not used
any of that reasoning which was proper for their
Lordships' understandings and feelings. He had
addressed a low and vulgar argument to those out
of doors. He had given a name. susje3 to Popular
hatred, to situations of the greatest eminence. lie bad
used the Vulgar terms of placemen and Lensioners,
speaking of the most exalted stations. The Noble
Lord had not spoken with bis usual good sense la
t':is. He had forgotten that the persons he alluded
to had marred their high staioos by their merit; that
they did not deserve those vulgar plat aces of ease
tempt the Noble Lord had applied to them.
The Earl of CA NNARVON rose to, speak MI
lrder. lie said. he had not Asserted that the Noble
Persons alluded to had not won their honours and
emouments by their services. He =Mt merely to
state

Earl CA RN A avo:4 Was here interrupted by till?
LORD CHANCELLOR, who said, the Noble Eat!
proposes to speak to order. He must thew in what
the N 11 Lord is dislr.fe• ly.
The Earl of CAA NA I! VON and Lord Meteasve
rose together. There was a loud cry of the
names of the two Noble Lords (rum the opposite
sides of the House, with which was mingled a cry or
ejder I Order!

The Earl of C.:MOW RYON; at length r.ole, a
said he spoke to order ; but he wt.uld speak to s
thiog m re than order. lie meant to deny sip! ,Lc
Noble Lord had ascribed to him. He h.tl • rr
asserted that the Houle Lord en the vrool•iick ;tad
not earned his honours and emoluments. He had
maintained this argument, that the Bill favoured
hirn and,others in }ugh offices of great etnolumei..•
in exempting them from the burden imposed by tio
Bill ; and ibis was speaking to order in despight of
cries from the• opposite side, in shewing that tits
Ntthlo Lord had attributed to him what was utterly
without four.dation.

Lord MULG RAVE said, the Noble Lord had!
not expressed himself with tha good sense which
usually beloogs to him. The argument was not
in. ended to apply to the real effeds of the Bill, the,
principle of the Bill, but to produce an influence on
the vulgar mind. His Lordship then defended the
Bill, in a speech of c,insiderable length ; but must
of his arguments were those which had already.
been urged in the House. of Commons. He parti-
cularly, however, reprobated the idea that thb Kt&
micy between the Ist and 2d battalion would prevent
volunteering frim the 2d to the Ist. It bad beets
argued, he said, that the soldiers of the home batta-
lion, hearing that the commanding officer of the ae-
tite battalion was disliked, would not enter it. He'
believed those who urged this knew nothing of the
service. He would relate an aneedote which would
chew hew the disposition of soldiers was mistaken.
On the expedition to Holland, one of the volunteers
from a militia regiment was rejeded by his own of-.
titers, because he had been often punished, and was.
notthought a properniari lobe mingled with the rest.
'Phis man anually deserted from his regiment, con•
cealed himself in the transport in which hi
fellows were, and never showed himself till
he was in baffle with his comrades, This mail I •
had been often flogged; and he meant to shew,;i2i
that the miiita. y ardour was not governed by •
such motives as had been argued. He believed.
as little would i r second hat: slim be ileterrldi
from volunteering by disaster, in the first. He.-
believed, they wou'al be fired by the glory andt
success of the first, even when the ranks had begat,
le.,ened, and would fill the battalions in the Indies, as
soon as at home. He had the highest opinion of the"
honour of an English soldier, and should not be in-'
fluenced by the arguments of those who degraded",'
them. The Bill, he thought the hest adapted to its
purposes of any that could be devised. Ho •
he might lament that he must separate fromwrenreeerst
with Arm he had been accustomed to ad, he felt';
himself tailed upon to support this Bill. He La-
mented sincerely, that an administration had not been',
formed on that broad basis which many wished. But;
he could not help looking to the present measure'
with great satl9fa:Von. He took this very Bill to bso,
the sure presage of good. If he was deceived in his
hopes of the good etre.Fis of the Bill, either as a mi
Mary man, or as a friend of the constitution, bed
would acknowledge the present administration to bet
incompetent to the duties of their situation. He.
hoped that he, the lowest in stati.n, and the poorest;
in talent, might he allowed to speak with at, free-.
don; than those among Ilis Majesty's Ministers who
•

had move to boast of. He took this BM as the
criterion of the talents of the present Government.
The Earl of MOIRA said, he should not follow
Noble Lords in any thing that did not relate to
the mere merits of the Bill, as applied to its ob-
ka. The question resolved itself into a very
abort one, whether the Bill did or not provide the
additional means of a considerable disposable force ?
This had, in fait, been acknowledged by all. A
forge for home defence was not now wanted. The
spirit of the nation had put that out of doubt. It
would be childish to say, we had nut forces
within the country, and attached to the coun-
try, sufficient for its defence against any thing
thing that the enemy can bring against us---
but Home Defence is not the question. Wizen we
went to war, it was ridiculomi to say we went to war
fora barren rock, for Malta. He had ever used
that language. We went to war to resist the ag-
gressions of France, to reduce the power of Fralce,
which we had unfortunately and unwisely pet 4Mt-
te'd to accumulate into such an enormous mass. The
question is not then for oar existence; no generous
Britan.wbo had known that we had 'ovenin on: height
of glory, would ever consent that eve should descend
too second power. We would sooner perish, than
tarnish our ancient name and glory ; to live,
Ong for our own safety, or con, eat with • hat
alone, was nnwor by of our characler. Oar anibi-
• tins. and the eh jeft of our exertions, must he to re-
direetbe powx of Franc.' to reasonable limits. The
gpowers on the Continent cannot singly do
elt They must he aided by us. And they have
• eight to expel that we,' who have a mire im-
mediate interest than themselves in this ,irtggh.,
ahnuld be ready to co-operate heartily, erre:orally,
with chum. Bu: how are we to do this ? Are we to
wait tii the opportunity on the continent, among
some of its powers, shall arrive ? No •, that is to
throw away the golden opportunity, the precious
moment and advantage. We want, therefore, above
all things, a disposeable force. But how is tl.is to
be got by the Bill ? if no more men are to
be got by the severity of a ballot, with every
enticement of large bounties, how Are they
to be got by this -Bill ? The thing cannot be.—
He knew of a distriEl where there were so many vo-
lonnteers, that there were tit t as many men left in
It as the quota of the Army of Rewrite demanded.
And these were not Volunteers who had enterea to
save themselves from the ballot. Nu! they were
ipso who had volunteered, and chosen to die, rather
dews see a foot of the country yielded to the enemy.
Where are the men to be got in this instance ? Or
bow are they so be got ? Not by ballot, nor by this
less efeaual means of the invitation of parish offi-
cers! This was his great objoflion to the Bill. It was
not in the lean fitted to its purpose ; and was beside
most oppressive. It had been said by the Noble
Lord who opened the debate, that the objeftion was
inconsistent, to call the Bill both nugatory and op-
preuive. But nothing could be more clear, that a .
measure may have both those evils. It is very
possible, that a plan may fail in its objea ; and
yet be extremely oppressive, in its collateral et-
fitas. Is it so impossible, for a distriet, for
instance, to say—r, You may grind us down,
you may inflia ruin on our families by your fines,
t you cannot raise the men ?" The Bill is,
and will be incompetent to this purpose. But
If so, surely it is oppressive to fine where you
demand an impossibitity ! He did not mean to pur-
sue this part of the subje& further. In the place of
this inefficient and oppressive Bill, he would recom-
Mend two measures. 'the Militia arc to be reducedby
this scheme, and gradually reduced. He proposed
that they should at once be reduced to their origir,al
quota, and the men invited to Volunteer into die
Line. A prodigious rein'orcement would thus be
aequ•red to the time. The second measure wa., to
enlist for limited time. The E.sglish were sraer,
and would much more 'caddy enter into ti eta• e,
fit were not for that idea of slavery attached to it,
.? which is forcibly expressed by the phrase—being
old for life. It they could serve in the army, and
return, Aar a few years of honour and comparative
enjoyment, there could be no tioutol they would
enlist much more freely. Thee two measures,
be was persuaded, would render the Bill uaneces-
earl%
Lord MELVILLE said, the Bill was calcu-
lated to produce a great temporary force
for home defence; and a large addition 1116.-
1 mately to the standing army. He argued, at great
length, to thew that the nature of man was
[ Mt that it was reasonable to expea, that the
1 *Wier, who has entered into a limited ser-
vice, iesener ally willing to go into one more extend-
ed. He said he would not philosophise upon this
proposition. He looked at the fait, and found it so.
He appealed so the instance of the Militia volun-
teering into the army last war. We gained by that
nearly 40,000 as fine men as ever entered the army.
Our Aas of Parliament, relative to the Militia, felt
and• lofted upon this principle, for they forbid the
militia soldier to enlist in the regulars, knowing that
otherwise the greater part would be lost to the militia
service. 'I he Noble Earl (Moira) wished fur the
instant rerjpaion of the Militia to its original number.
Foe has part. he preferred the gradual reduilion, as
preserving a large force for home defence, and giv-
ing an opportunity for the men gradually tii enter
the service, which effect he ezpcBed from their gra-
! dual reduBion. But if they were instantly reduced.
. would the Noble Earl insure their entering into the
regulars ? 'this was a different question ; and was
to be doubted. The operation of the system pro-
vided by the Bill, in all its parts, was what he
relied on for a disposeable force as well as a
regretful home defence; and no part did he think
mare prudent than that of the gradual reduction
of the militia to its old boundaries. •f he Noble Lord
then made Knee °bun:at:tins upon the method of
• balloting for the Militia ; when a mall of tire !et.:
four inches was drawn for the Militia, he frequently
ir Found a substitute only five feet two inches—lie
made a very good snldi, r. Ile then commented
largely upon the ardour and heroism with which
the heart of a British soldier was inspired, when he
arrived at the field of battle, or had the hope of
meeting the enemy. Ile adduced several instances
to embellish his argument ; among which, was
one of a private belonging to the second batta-
lion of a regiment ordered for the continent its
the late war. When he found the battalion to which
• be was attached was not to go, he concealed himself
is oos of the transports till he arrived at a sunizient

tk

distance front the shore, when be thought there
would be no probability of being sent back. This
ardour and heroism, he contended, would be
always found in a British soldier; and he con-
ceived a plan more calculated to establish a per-
mament moveable force could not be resorted to
than the Bill then before the House; it was a
well known faa, that the men who had served
either in the militia or the army of Reserve were al-
ways ready to enlist in regular regiments; in the
late war, no less than forty-eight new raised regi-
ments were distributed among the old ones to fill
up their ranks ; when a man had once got a taste of
military service, heever alter felt a desire to pursue it;
he therefore thought that by this Bill, they would in
the first instance obtain an efficient force, which
afterwards could easily be made use of to encrease
the Regular A-my he deprecated the mode adopted
to increase the Regular Force last war; that of
young men of famine raising men for rank : by
this method, meritorious and deserving officers, men
of talent and experience, ‘sho had served for years
with honour to themselves, and advantage to their
country, were disgraced and insulted by having
young men, wholly ignorant of that moitt honourable
profession, put above them, and made superior in
rank, mrvly because they were more fortunate in
wort l'y circiimstances. Upon the whole of this
subjea and the several grounds which he had
stated, he did conceive the Bill was such a one as
would answer every purpose, and, therefore, gave
it his hearty colictor.ince
Tne Duke of It I HMO VD then rose : his argn-
mi:a:s were chiefly in Allis\ er to the Noble Lord who
spoke last : he obsetved that the French had a laud
tnrce, consisting of not less than 400,000 men ready
to snrreund this country ; and that the Militia force
of England was by no means sufficient to oppose
them ; he did conceive the plan of suffering the
Militia to volunteer their services, was one of the
most injudicious measures that ever was resorted to
by the Government of this country. From the
moment such a me tsnre was reduced to praaice,
the whole of the Militia were in a state of drunken-
Less and dissipation for weeks together, totally ig-
noront who were their officers. In the present state
of the country, a disposable force was wanting, and
should he established.

Tiii Farl of Ltg IC K spoke in answer to the
Noble Duke.

The Eail of WESTMORELAND, in a very ani-
mated speech, warmly supported the Hill.
Lord HOBART said, he could not support the
present Bill. In the first place it was unnecessary,
for it enaaed nothing which government was not al-
ready able to do without it. Government may re-
crutt int" limited or regular service. in the way pre-
scribed by the Bill ; where then was the necessity to
have recourse to it ? But it was not only unneces-
sary, but nugatory also. It may raise money in the
several pari.,hes, but it will not procure men ; while
at the same tinge it will degrade and embarrass a re-
speclable body of men, the parish officers, and in-
volve them in a course with which they are totally
unacquainted. It was also oppressive in a constitu-
tional point of view, as raising men for rank was
protimaive of the worst consequences to the army.
For these reasons he could not give his support to the

The Earl of SUFFOLK also spoke against the
Bill. He thought a plan might be devised for an
armed ;stipulation that would be equal to the defence
Lf the country.
Lord GitENVILLE--As I regret at this late
hour to occupy the time of the House; but when a
man has made up his mind, when he has come to
a &re.? alecisive resolution upon a subject, and that
subject happens to he one of great magnitude and
importance to the interest of the country, it becomes
hiadsuyin speak out,and to declare his opinion openly
and publicly to the world. Bin before I enter into the
merits of the question. I must beg leave to observe,
that, in the many! years during which I have had
the honour of a seat in Parliament, I never
knew a case in which so much industry and
such endeavours were used to provoke hosti-
lit!, and to divert the pure current of debate
from fair argument, and introduce personality, al-
ways irjurious, inconvenient, and ill-suited to the
presentistate of the country, in which it is placed by
a concurrence of circumstances unexampled in the
history of the world, and, above all things, ill-suit:d
to the temper and feeling with which I view this
interesting subjea, and would wish to examine
it. In the list of those who support this measure,
it has Leen my lot to have passed most of my life
in habits of intimacy and friendship with two Noble
Lords, who have taken an aaive part in the busi-
ness; and, whatever provocations have been given, I
shall take care not to introduce, in the observations
which I mean to offer, any thing inconsistent with
the scntimeats of friendship and esteem which I shall
ever entertain for those noble personages. But if
this he my principle, and this the line of coastal
which I mean to pursue, it is a little hard that
shall nut he allowed to suhnsit my opinion candidly
and fairly to the House, without being told that my
obj.cnions are nut to the measure, but they all
apply personally. To come now to the merits of
the question—l say the measure is ill-suited as to
time, Pace, circumstances, and persons. This is
my opinion; but I am told the Bill ought not to be
opposed by assertions, but by arguments. I say
then here are arguments, and the next question is
whether they arc not good ones? As a Noble Lord
lota justly observed. I sec no advantage to be de-
rived from the public disclosure and discussion of
those differences of opinion between me and certain
persons with whom I was once in the habit of aging;
but still there is nothing affeaing myself personally
that I am desirous to keep from the public. Whatever
may be the claims of the present Government, I do
think the public feel that such a Government has not
been made as might have been made, and the peculiar
eir‘unistanses of ;he country required. Having said
this; and I am willing to say, that this little hos
been wrung from me, I now pass to the Bill before
the House. It is not one solid objea.ton upon which
I rely. I have a string of objeLions to the measure.
One says the objeaions to the Bill are small; ano-
ther, that they are futile and frivolous; but my ob.
jea ioos, I hope, do not come within any of these de-
scriptions. Aly objea9ions are, that the measure is
unconstitutional I that it is inefficient; that it is op-
pressive to the country, which deserved better moor
hands, and whose zeal and loyalty were wound up,
and exerted to such a pitch, that the cord was

ht danger of cracking; and, lastly, because it •
tends to impede the growth of our force, and
to diminish that which already exists. As to
the principle of the Bill, it is is difficult task
to extricate and seleA the principle from the de•
tail, so as to see clearly what is the real and
precise principle. In the present case, I may state
the principle to be to substitute for the Militia, a
larger Military Force for limited service, Which
should farther serve as a supply for the increase of
the Regular Force, and to establish a permanent
Regular Army. upon the first of these ques-
tions I must observe, that this is a moment
when, as far as public opinion can be colleded, all
are agreed a great exertion should be made to aug-
ment the regular force of the country. Let us then,
by the present measure, by this rule, and, I ad:, is
it the best that can be devised, to increase our dis-
poseable force ? By adopting it you establish this,
for the first time, as a component part of
the British army, a pa.t amounting to sixty
thousand men limited to home service, and com-
manded by regular officers. I do net here contend
for the full length to which those would go who
maintain that we should not have a large disposeable
force. But I think, that instead of assimilating and
amalgamating all our force with the regular army,
we should have a force, in its principle, nature, and
construdion, entirely different from it. 'this is the
principle upon which the militia is founded. In of-
ficers who are country gentlemen, in men, and na-
ture of service, it is kept distind and distant from the
regular army. The Militia is not an ano:naly from
the regular force, but is, for gond and substantial
reasons, a system founded upon different principles,
and kept as a distind and different sort of force.—
But what does the present Bill propose ? It calls
upon you to reverse this system, and to blend that
force, which ought to be kept distind, with the Regu-
lar Army. The more the Bill effeds this purpose,
the better they consider it; but, in my opinion, it
is so much the worse, as it establishes a new system
tatal to discipline, to subordination, and union.
My Lords, much has been said by the Noble Vis-
count opposite to me (Lord Melville) of the spirit
of honour, the thirst of glory, and the desire of dis-
tindion, with which the officer, at the head of these
battalions, will be animated. But I am inclined to
draw very different conclusions. I think die prin-
ciples of this Bill will give a severe, I fear,
a fatal blow, to all that is enviable and worthy
of admiration in the military character and in the
arrangement of these first and second battalions,
confusion and insubordination seem to me the only
probable result. The men in the second, for in-
stance, which will be raised for limited service
only, and which, it has been supposed, will be easily
induced to volunteer into the first, may, if they
please, say to the officer who is to humble himself
in order to induce them to enlist for general ser-
vice; No,
unless
me a higher bounty : you cannot
move me unless I please." With respeA to the
Army of Reserve, I had many objeAions to it, but
that was a momentary measure, and adopted for
temporary purposes only, but the objet of this Bill
is to perpetuate all the evils of that system : and
still more, for it will have the effect of locking up
in the most injurious manner the services of all
the men who are raised under it. These
has been a great deal said of the ardour
which will prevail in men who are once em-
barked in military service, and Acquired military
habits. It has been argued, that they will be easily
prevailed upon to extend their cervices, and acquire
attachments to their officers, which will induce them
to volunteer for the Regular Regiments. I certainly
canitot set my experience against that of many of
the military members of this House, who, it is said,
concur in this opinion ; but I must say, that my
exper:enee contradids that probability. With ie-
sped to the advantage of inlisting soldiers fm•
a limited period, I concur in all the arguments
which hive been stated, but against a limited ser-
vice I must ever protest. As to the propositions
which have been stated by a Noble lit near me
(Earl Moira) for recruiting the Regular Army, it
has been said that they have not escaped the attention
of Ministers, and that t' ey mean to consult officers
of experience upon the subject ; but I fear that is like
the resolution which was once common in the States
General of Holland, ad ryfrrendam. My Lords, I do
think that by pursuing the system of recruiting the
regular army, we should do more to establish all
efia ttive force than by ten such Bills as the preset.:.
As to what has been so forcibly urged by tile Noble
Viscount (Melville) of the ill died' attending the
practice of oincers raising men for rank, I most En-
tirely concur with him, and I am glad he has stated
it in so bold and manly a manner. My Loads, I
concur with him from the result of a bitter and dear
bought experience during the last war. if any
thing could make men inclined to enter into general
service, it would be from the regular system of re-
cruiting being adopted, which, 1 am sure, would
operate as a motive of pride and a spur to ambition,
mach more than this Bill. But it is said that the
mischievous effect of conipetition in bounties will be
done away. I do not think that it will, for the
risen in the second battalion will be ready enough to
raise a competition in price before they volunteer
for general service. With respell to the sy.tem of
ballot, however it may have been abus •il. its greed
principle was wise and just It wa: kunded
on the basis of equal liability, and proportioned
upon the principle of population. lint this Bill
ales% the property, not the population ; and
let me remark with what extreme inequality it
will operate upon different pandits,accord-
ing to their different situations and inhabitants.
One may be a very extensive grazing parish with
few inhabitants. They cannot possibly raise eieir
quota, and must consequently be tined. Ano-
ther is a place of great trade and manufadures, and
their quota will be easily r.tised. is it possible to
say that this is not gross injustice? Instead of the
proportion of men to be raised, falling upon the
whole population of the country. the died
this proposition will be, that it will exclu-
sively fall upon the agricuhutal interest, and
upon time who pay poor's rates, while all otheis
will be exempted. The ballot operated eqiiaily
upon all; but this measure will exclusively affect
the farmers and great landed proprietors. As to
another clause in this Bill, that the charge of raising
recruits shall be intrusted to the management of
the churchwardens, it is so futile in itself, that I
should say hula about it, if it were not for the

alarming consideration, that by* tiiiS 'Bill may be
raised tines amounting to two 'millions; a sum
equal to the whole produce of. the Laud Tax, at
four shillings in the pound. I confess I think the
time of the churchwardens will be badly taken up
in the execution of this new office, and they may,
pethaps, incur a fine fur not doing what it was rapt
in their power to do. But what reason is there to
suppose they can procure men now, when on a former
occasion they could not effect it, with all the assistance
which could be given to them. Rut what necessity
is there for all this operose process when the point
might be attained by ranch simpler mean,;' The
result of it, in my opinion, will be that, after all, the
army must be recruited for government bounties by
the regular officers. It has been said, in the course
of the debate, that exemptions had a very great if--
fed in inducing Volunteers first to enter, and then
to continue in the service ; but the effect of this
measure will be to annihilate those exemptions, to
which I have never been favourable in the extent
they have been contended for, and then nothin&
will remain but the p ttriotisin and spirit of the Ind'.
vidital ; for even the exempted Volunteer will be
rated, assessed, and fined for the deficiency which
may happen in his parish. I now come to that part
which the Noble Earl,who opened the debate, thought
the best of the whole Bill ; and I must confess the
preamble and this clause would alone induce me to
vote against the measrue. It creates not a provisi.
onal army formed for temporary purpost:i, but a le.
gular standing military force. This is, and I hope
ever will be, a new principle in our constitution.
The Militia is the only instance of an armed pot:a
which exists in time of peace, by the regular opera-
tion of law ; but the principles of the two establish-
ments sr.! widely different indeed, and in nothing
more so than in being commanded by the Nobility
and the principal landed Gentry of the country.
This force, however, if raised at all, will retain a
military spirit which is inherc:tt in its nature, and
will not be st all commanded by the property of the
country, but by the officers of the regular a:my un-
der the influence cf the crown. ibly 1. ,14;S, it has,
and I trust ever will he. the distinguishing feature of
this country, that su h 7.-1-m:tarot establishmeirs
will not be allowed. It wit: at once put us on the
footing of the absolute governments of
Europe ; it is applicable to such governments «lb ;
and, however much I *re:: its the necessity of a
large disposable force, this is not that sort of army
winch, in my opinion, can be constitutiot, .fly raised
in this country." His Lordship dwelt upon this
point for some time with peculiar energy and force,
and concluded by giving his negative to the motion.
Lord HAWKESBURY expressed, that after al
which had been said by several Noble Lords,
felt it his duty to come to a brief discussion of t..
Bill without studying the grounds too minutely on
which it was projeded. He thought the House
ought rather to be employed in discovering how the
country could be benefited by its operaticris than
by entering into subjeds foreign from the Bill.
A Noble Duke had observed in the progress of the
debate, that he bad found no circumstance to enable
him to think the Bill would be answerable to the
purpose it was proposed to effect. Its anwer to
which, his intention was, to urge a few radio: 7 re-
marks, limited to the subjea. The Bill was founded
on the measure of the Army of Reserve, pasted
during the last session of Parliament I a measure,
most undoubtedly the best that could be adapted fur
augmenting the force of the country, that could
possibly come under legislative consideration. There
were in it, notwithstandingi several provisions which
were considered as temporary improprieties, and
required to be modified; such as the interference
which recruits raised by the provisions of that Pall,
would have with recruiting the regular army,
the mode of finding the substitutes, and other
objedions. Two questions then arose, name-
-Ir, whether it was better to repeal the Rill,
or whether it was more expedient to suspend
the Army or Reserve ? The result was, it became ne-
cessary to suspend part of the operations of the Amy
of Reserve, and to engraft a permanent measure, to
o'us hoe .:11 olqedions in providing for the general de.
fence. presnt Bill, therefore, strut to suspend
every oppressive and disagreeable measure, and to
adopt a pet marten: measure. With respee is
the icsluaitin of the Militia, he (the N'oble Ltisi)
WAS one of those who, when that sithica wa; fOT.
moly debated, proooseJ 61,000 for England, and
12,000 for Scotland, the whole making ;1.000.
That number was sufficiently lame at the time of
such an intimation ; but, front the situation of things,
and the steumulalioa of Continental power, on
military force now required to be augmented.—
It is not contended 72,000 were more than n
sary. It was allowed by many that we wanted
more, but how were we to have such a force? we
wanted a force that would be disposeable either to
Ireland, the islands in the Channel, or other places;
the force proposed in the Bill was of that desnp-
tion, and could not be procured by better meats
than the present measure. The state of England
Europe, and the world at large, m.inilessel that
our military ought to be augmented. Former
wars, and the danger of invasion increased the
military of the country, but the forces, though nu-
merous, were not pr tented by any former ststcu
with the facility VI eh the present expedient F'r
mod to afford. V, nit :espia to recruiting. it lot
been said from military authority, that the number
of recruits raised WAS at all times ptir'rtionate t)
the number of persons employed in recruiting. Ii
that WaStf ue,the Bill certainly possessed all theadvsti-
t Ige that could be desired. An observation had lea
made, that Churchwardens were improper persecs
to have the conduuf of raising men, and distributi.:g
bounties ; but they had ica been proved unfit ; and
the experience of many Noble Lords would inform
them, that Parish Officers had bean before employed
0:1 similar service, for the public g, rod, during which
ri,) mate. complaints had arisen, as to the r cur:
daa. The Bill, upon the whole, would ;:if r.l .at
the prop.) ....;c1 benefits, and obviate those ditlicuult
complained of. A Noble Lord had objeaed so t3e
measure as unconttisutional, and against. the epilit_,
the Bill of Rights. by which a great force
not have more than a year's existence in the counter.
No man could hare a greater veneration t. r the Bj
of Rights than he had, but how do we now stirs.?
C ,ul.l we reTulatc the force by confining 00
M Military to any number of men dilated by the
Bill of Rghts ? Tire Noble Lotd might look at
the ids,9tnl Volunteers in arras, and say whetilei

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