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London, England, 1805-04-09 00:00:00

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he eats sot inclined to retain the 'possession of it
long. Upon the whole, he did not see that there
was any deficiency whatever in the payments which
had been charged, and the report made no allow-
ance for the numerous assignments which were
always outstanding to a very large amount, and
for the immediate payments of which, to the
individuals or patties who held those sum' of
motley, must, to that amount, be of course lying in
the hails of the paymaster, and in many of the
years it appeared from the accounts that balances
thus laing were very little more than the amount of
the assignments. Flee report also stated, that
there should cot be more than ten days' balances
so remaining in the hands of the treasurers,
and complained that they generally retained
thiny•two days balances. From this it seemed,
that they had not seleded accurately, nor made the
proper allowances. In fairness and candour, they
should have confined their remarks and calculations
to the unassigned balances retained ; but they made
not even the proper allowance for the numerous
assignments every day coming in tram the
out-ports, which, if they had done, the tooth
would be that the balance in hand did not, on an
average, exceed fifteen days, which comes pretty near
the ten days they themselves recommended, instead
of the thirty-two days on which they dwell so very
much. All these errors, mistakes, and omissions,
chewed that the calculations on which the retort
was founded, were so inaccurate and complicated.
that the House could not be in a condition m con-
sider the subjed merely on the materials now before
it, for which reason he should propos • that the whole
should be fef ared to a Sae& Committee. The
case then standing thus, he could scarcely have
expeded that, after the Noble Lord had offered
to substeetiete his allegations upon oath, the
House should have heard of any suspicions being
entertained of him. The reason why he could not
answer to the question, whether any of this money
had been applied to the purpose of producing any
emolument to himself was, that Mr. 'l'rotter had so
complicated his private accounts with the public
money, that it was impossible for him to determine
whether any advance made to him on his private
account, might come under that description, or
whether Trotter might not have lent him the public
money without his being by any means aware of it.
The assertion of 186,000,0001. of the public mo-
ney having been drawn for by him during his
long administration had nn application, no refer-
ence whatever to his own affairs, as it was applii d
to public services, and the only part of it with
which his affairs could at all be conneded, was
of no greater amount, for the whole time, than about
I 00,0001. This,though aconsiderablesum, would not
appear so, for such a number of years, when it was
consiJered4 that in it were included his salary of
of 40001. annually as Treasurer of the Navy, his
salary as keeper of the signet in Scotland, and
all his other property derived from that coun-
try, Ste. Some part of it was applied to public pur•
poses, in consequence of Mr. Trotter's sometimes
signing his name to bills which he did not at that time
know of; and surely all these circumstances and trans-
eClions should be separated and investigated before
the House could be in a condition to decide upon
the subject. Under all these circumstances, and the
tender which the Noble Lord made of his oath in bis
owls vindication, he contended, that to acquiesce
thus prematurely in the resolutions now proposed,
would not only be inconsistent with justice, but
' also, in the hiallest degree, illiberal, ungenerous,
and preposterous. Without, therefore, going into
any particulars in this stage of proceeding, he should
offer a method which would he accompanied
with very little delay, by proposing that all the
words of the resolutions should be left out, and in
thi it room substituted the words—" That the 'L'entli
Report of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry be
onerred to a Seled Committee."
Mr. FOX objeCted, that the mode pmpoked, as
he conceived, horn his recollection of a case that
happened about five and twenty years ago, would
puevent the original resolutions from appearing upon
tha Journals of the House.
'1 he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
answered, that he distinetly meant to substitute his
motion for that proposed; and, for that purpose, to
move the previous question upon each of the resolu-
tions.
Mr. GREY spoke a few words.
The SPEAKER—s' The original question was"
[he then read the first resolution proposed by Mr.
Whitbread] " since which the previous question has
been put, 1 am now, therefore, to move the pre-
vious question."
Lord HENRY PETTY expressed his anxiety to
t.tke an early opportunity of declaring his senti-
ments upon the question before the House ; it was
with a great degree of nu prise he heard the Rt. Hon.
Gentleman who spoke last, at the beginning of his
speech, state, that his Hon. Friend (Mr. Whitbread)
had travelled out of his original track of modera-
tion, and had endeavoured to inflame the passions
of his hearers ; he, however, observed, in the first
place, that the resolutiuns of his Hon. Friend were
founded upon plain matters of fad, which arose
out of the breach and violation of the law ; hut the
preference which the Right Honourable Gentleman
had given to appointing a celed Committee, was
from an enumeration of figures, which arose from
the obscurity thrown upon the business by Lord
Melville, and his paymaster. The feat of Lord
Melville's having violated the aft of Parliament,
of his having allowed his paymaster to lodge cer-
tain sums, which should have been deposited in the
Bank of England, in the hands of a private banker,
of his admission that several sums of money, con-
stituted for the particular purposes of the navy,
were appropriated to oilier services, were too flagrant
breaches of the Aat of Parliament to be passed over ;
and when the Resolutions proposed by his Honour-
able Friend were agreed to, he should be one of the
first to acquiesce ils the appointmeat of a idea Com-
mittee, nor would any Member of that ilonse be
more arcious to carry such a measure into effect.
He asked, would Lord 'Melville wish to make any
fur Cher declarations ? and even se, he felt lie could
cot go into a Seim, Committee without a hope to
some explanation ; but it was more befitting the
House of Commons to agree to the Resolutions then
before them when a gross breach of an .ka gm' Par-
, lament had been committed. The Right Hon.
Gentleusast had said, that uo luas whatever had been
sustained to the public in this business; it appeareu
to him, however, notwithstanding the Right Hon.

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Gentleman's assertion, d'l4t, at least, a eorsat cols-
lie risk might be stifferedo but, ceverigly:, a gekist,' •
positive, and particular fooblic loss oatd been c.o.= o'
mined. The Right Hon. Gentlamass Se 3 ouvreted inn, •
an argument of numerical calcolation's, fr, -eine?! he
could not attempt to follow him. beieg onarotta;rx-
ed with the forms of' office with whicE the Rite):
Hon Gentleman was so conversant: he had said that
large sums were given from the Etc' equer foe the
service of the Navy, which were actereeords operci-
prioted to other services, and much larger rotors were
drawn than applied, how then could they have beet
applied ? this was not specified, and they might as
well have been applied to private purposes as any
other. The Right Hon. Gentleman !ad .admitted
that great speculations hod takeh place, great risk.
must consequently have followed. A combination
had been formed of three persons, the ogre had the
direction of the public funds relating to a r articular
department Mr. Mork Sprott was the broker and
manager under .Ir. Alexa'der Trotter ; he was the
confidential agent, and occountahle to Lord Melville;
and he was the person who Was accountable to the
public. LVltat danger, he asked, might have arisen •
from this combination ? he had heard of many com-
binations of different descriptions in the state, but he
knew of none more formidable than the one in
question, and the systematic deception which Lord
Melville had pursued, had evaded every attempt at
investigation. His Lordship then adverted to an
extra& from the evidence of Lord Melville, given
before the Committee of Finance, when the Speaker
was at the luead of that Board ; and it then appear-
ed, that no account of the first Treasurership of
Lord Melville hat been finally passed. The Noble
Lord had stated, that the several retold stions
which had taken place, had enabled him to
carry that most beneficial Aft into effeer He de-
manded what this beneficial Aft was? It was not
to constitute the office of a pueictdar department
into a public treasury (A Ire.; rry of h' r ! Hear!).
For fourteen years his I"dsitort had systema-
tically violated the Aft of Parliament, and the
House was then called upon to go into a Committee,
before the question was docided, whether the Noble
Lord was to hold the high and important situation
any longer (Hear ! Mail)? If it had occurred to
Lord Melville to ask Mr. Mar kSpront whether he had
used the ten thousands, and the twenty thouiands
for their men benefit or emolument ; it Mr. Trotter
himself had asked the question, Mr. Mark Sprott
would soon have ceased to be the broker for either.
From the evidence in the Report, this Gentleman
had stated that from the nature of keeping the ac. .
counts, he could not tell whether or not he derived
any emolument. If all w •re vtiflred g,ve this .
so-t of account, all the Brolcors in London would
follow the erample. if any part of Lord Melviile's •
evidence, or due extroordi nary Letter which he wzote,
after hearing all the arguments of both islends and oi
enemies, if the latter could be called enemies, who
were only enemies to illeg slimy ; it uu • (-toed find any
specific assertion, posuively denyili;, that hoc! re-
ceived or derived any emolument of a p:isoite
nature? his Lordship declared, he would 0' ee r
vote for a seleCt Committee ; but he called -es o ty
Gentleman to state a case of toe :latur. cat art
sent : if so, he would pronounce him inner n' ; Out
he could not help remarking with Piso. .‘ who
is more criminal than he who CAIIDOt either spook o -
write himself guilty r' Such was the Noble L re! .
In question, who could he the first to make an a
t and violate it himself. If the motion of the R;gl
Hon. Gentleman took place, it was a vain toil, a
fruitless labour, to follow up the qo ion farther ;
in that case, not only would the Treotilrer of the
Navy be found to be violating on aft for upwards of
fourteen years, but also would be found a House of
Commons who would suffer those charges to lie on , •
their table, only anxious how they might avoid
.such an investigation, and, after all this troubls, it
power should step in between the criminal and the
law. His Lordship trusted that this night, al-
though there might be a difference between the
House in odour respells, yet when the question came
before them, whether the law hod been violated, or
the public finances properly administered or not,
there would be that promptitude found amorist
them, which was ever the support of the honour and
dignity of that Horse; with these sentiments his
Lordship said he would vote for the Resolutions of
his Hon. Friend, and would afterwards agree to a
Sete& Committee.
The ATFORNEY GENERAL observed, that
die lion. Gentleman who bad opened the debate,
had appealed to several descriptions of persons, yet
he did not know any one he could better have ap-
plied to than the Noble Lord wbo just sat down; the
Noble Lord had said, it was not a matter of account
that they had to try, but it was a question upon the
disobedience of a public law, and he thought it

rr

should be considered whether it would nnt be he:-
ter to go into the further inquiry of the mat-Jer, be-
fore they should pass any judgment upon it; then
would there be a fine opportunity of enquiring
the particulars of it. The fair question was. whe-
ther it was most to the dignity of the House to
take the haulms now by piece-meal, or have it
properly investigated, when the whole should ap-
pear, before they came to a final judgment.—
The Noble Lord had adverted to a particgra-
thin of emoluments with Mr. Trotter by land
Melville; hut, before these arguments were
plied, he should hear the nature of the charge
completely, and not in parts, as they were then
called upon to ad. Could it be said that it was ne-
cessary to pass the censure of the House on that day ?
he would ask the Home, generally. whither they
would then proceed, or fix that day se'enight, or
fortnight, for :he further il•ictission? On that side
of the House the further investigation and inquiry
were desired, and the question was, whether they
were to has c that further inquiry preceding the judg-
ment. but more especially in a case like the present.
where a charge of a criminal nature was made ? It
appeared to him rather an extraordinary measure
to proceed as they were intending. and inconsistent
to proceed in that way : he therefore would agree
with his Right Honourable Fe icod in a Seled Com-
mittee, without prejudice to any party
Mr. TIERNEY said, that with re pea to the
appropriation of the public money from that
service, for which it was roustmtted, he thought it
was fraught with much danger; and indeed the
perusal of the 10th Report of the Coinmissioners. he
studied with surprise, A'' lag meet, and almost shame.
Did Lord Melvilk or Mr. Trotter come in the Bar
of the Home, and ask further time to investigate

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