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London, England, 1825-03-16 00:00:00

tiona entered into by the Government with the Companies, it woulo
be but fair that copies of the agreements, if any, oliould be laid be-
fore the House. Ile wished also to know, whether these Compa-
nies were to be incorporated for purposes beyond that of merely
enabling them to sue and be sued by their secretary or some other
official penman. If this were intended to be the case, he considered
it to he Insumbent on that House to watch the provisions of any
Bill that might be introduced for such an object very narrowly.
Mr. HORTON replied in a tone almost inaudible, but we un-
derstood him to ray, that it wilt intended to incorporate the Cont.
panics.
The motion was then put, and leave given to bring in the Bill.
REGULATION OF BANKS IN IRELAND.
Sir GEORGE HILL observed, that the measure he hoped to
have the honour to bring before the House would not at all contra-
vene any arrangements that might have been mode between the
Treasury and the Bank of Ireland. There was much more capital
in Ireland than people were apt to suppose. In the course of a short
time not less than thirteen millions sterling had been transferred
from that country to the Bank of England, and the exports of last
year were not much less than fourteen millions sterling ; he there.
fore thought that the country required a greater extension of
banking establiahmenta to aid the circulation of its capital, anti to
of brd the merchant and manufacturer that assistance which an in-
creased trade necessarily required. The Honourable Baronet then
moved, that leave he given :o bring in a Bill to render more effec-
tual an Act of last Session, entitled " An Act to amend an Act of
the 31st of Geo. 11. which empowered persons to form co-partner.
ships to are nn the trade of banking in Ireland."
Mr. DAMSON seconded the motion. Ile considered thin mea-
sure to be essentially necessary to the permanent prosperity of Ire-
land. It would be in the recollection of the House, that about four
years ago the whole of the South of Ireland was ruined by the ex-
'menet of private bunks. This was in consequence of those banks
being founded on principles inimical to the true spirit of mercantile
transactions. So extensively ruinous did these batiks operate, that
it was found necessary for this House to step forward, and by ad-
vancing large sums of money prevent those Manning consequences '
which would have inevitably ensued but for its interference. This,
however, was no argument against such banks when formed upon
proper principles. Scotland attintled a striking rostra this. While
in Ulu:outer and Ulster there were at this moment but ten banks, in
Scotland there were no less than 1211; and lie believed every Gen-
tleman who bad either written or spoken on the subject had anti_
touted the happy state of that country entirely to the formation of
joint stock banking companies. It was chit principle he moat
anxiously wished to see introduced into Ireland. Ile totally dis-
approved of the manner in which private banks were constituted.
Their system was pernicious, and its effects invariably ruinous. But
the system upon widen joint stock companies were formed afforded
a perfect contrast; and its introduction to Ireland would be the
certain means of encouraging its manufactusee, and indeed of pro-
mo:ing the general prosperity of that country. lie was desirous,
however, of stating, that, anxious as he was to carry this object into
execution, he did not wish to trespass on the chartered rights of the
Bank of Ireland. But however much that Bank wis protected by
its charter, yet it should be remembered that the Bank of Ireland
had a duty to perform to the country, as well as a right to uphold.
That estaidishinent must not expect too much. The interests of
i Ireland were not to he sacrificed to the interests of the Bank. He
knew not what was the disposition of that body with regard to the
present measure, but he perfectly remembered, that during a time
of great distress in Ireland the Bank of Ireland did not step for-
ward to render the least assistance. (hear, hear.) Ile thought,
therefore, that the Bank hail no right to expect this !louse to con-
sult its interests in preference to that of the people, but that Par-
liament ought to give full encouragement to the establishment of
provincial banks, which were calculated to have a most autumry
effect in promoting those interests. There was another fact which
he considered indicative of the great indisposition on the part of the
Bank of Ireland to contribute its aid to the prosperity of that coun-
try. That body did not reduce its discounts until he had given no-
tice in the last Si ssiun of Parliament of his intention to introduce a
Bill to regulate and restrict the exclusive rights claimed by that
Bank. Since then, indeed, the Bank had made sonic little reduc-
tion of its discounts, and there had been a branch or provincial
bank established; but he did not think the Bank of Ireland came
forward in anyway to support the country efficiently as it ought,
and all that it had done was by compulsion. Ile thought that this
measure would be realising sante portion of that good to the people
of Ireland which was held out to them at the time of the Ifnion ;
and he sincerely hoped that tlre Right Hon. the Chancellor of the
Excheatter would see the importance of it, and give it his full sup-
port. By that Right Hon. Gentleman carrying it into execution,
lie would be extending the benefit of those principles of trade to
Ireland which he had w wisely done to all other parts of the world,
and would by this menus he preparing the way to a great reduction
of taxation oa the people of that country, and thus ensure for them
ihe blessings of prosperity, hitherto unknown to them.
Sir H. PARNELL conceived that the conduct of the Bank of
Ireland was such as not to make any 31entber backward in ex-
pressing his opinion upon it he considered i: to have been extremely
improper and Inconsistent, with regard to the public interests of
the country. He them& that if the proceedings of the Bank
were to be sifted to thz bottom, it would be found to have been
the cause of the reduction of the banks in these parts of Ireland
which had been mentioned by the Hon. Member opposite Cllr.
Dawson), to the ue.y small number of ten. He trusted, however,
that what had occurred in throe provinces—namely, Munster
and Ulster—would lead the House to examine for the future
more deeply into the policy of giving such a monopoly, not only I
to the Bank of Ireland, but to the Bank of England also, and to I
see how dangerous it a as to entrust so much of the public interest
in the poser of any private individuals, be they who they may.
He wished to ask one question which had occurred to him relative
to the subject now before the House. lie was desirous to ascertain
how far it was expedient to keep the law of Ireland different feoni
the law of England in respect of the trade of banking ? He asked
to know why the Banking Act of 131.M0. l 1. should continue? He
could not understand upon what ground one system should be ob-
served in Ireland and another pursued in this country. As far as
the Banking Act went he never could learn (and he had spoken
with many persons well-informed on the subject) that there was
any benefit derived from it. He did, therefore, trust that the
whole system would, when the Bill which the Honourable Baronet
was about to bring in Caine before the House, be taken into em-
sideration, and the banking trade of Ireland be made to assimilate
with that of England.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he was as
sensible of the importance of the question now before the House as
the Hon. Baronet who had introduced it; and he begged to assure
that lion. Baronet that lie was es extremely anxious to give his
assistance to a fair investigation of the subject as any one, and in
this inquiry he should certainly not be influenced by any partiality
towards the Bank of Ireland. lie knew not, indeed, why he
should, further than this--thet the Bank of Ireland had a Charter
which gave it certain rights, and the House ought theretbre to take
care that in legislating upon tlei• subject it did not violate those
rights, Persons might differ as to what might be a violation of
them ; but he thought the principle at all events cluld not be dis- I
putcd that the Bank was clearly entitled to have its Charter left
untouched by this measure. They might be violated in two ways ;
it might be done, first, by a direct, positive, and open violation—
done purposely and intentionally ; and, 2dly, it might be violated
by giving the Charter such a comoruction as would be inconandent
with those rights which it was intended to confer, and for which
only it was of value to the incorporated body. With regard to the
that mode of violation, it must be admitted to be altogether unjust'_
liable, ae. not to be in any way excused. But with regard to the
latter, it might perhaps be argued that the technical construction of
the Charter did not give to the Bank those privileges which it had
for a series of years enjoyed. They must, however, in construing
this instrument, take into consideration what the circumstance.
were which endured the Charter to be granted, and whether
the contract between the Bank and Government was not
such as to embrace those privileges ; and if the Bank should
establish this fact, then the question would be whether the Bank
had not in equity made outs full Gat to support of that construe-
tion watch had hitherto been put by them upon the terms of their
charter? Ile should certainly feel it him duty to make it an object
of his care to see that this question was properly and fully attended
to its the progress of oily Bill that might be introduced by the
Honourable Baronet. He thought his-Honourable Friend (Mr.
Dawson) had spoken rather severely of the Bank of Ireland ; and
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should be the more watchful
on that account. It might be said that the Bank of Ireland had
acted illiberally--that was, that it had acted like all other persons
in money matters who preferred their own personal interests to these
of their neighbours ; but that was not a reason for attacking its
known and acknowledged privileges. If persons should, however,
say. that it had not done what it was bound to do— that it had not
fulfilled its contract with the country—why then he should reply
that it had not performed the stipulations of its charter: but that
was clearly a matter of inquiry, and was not to be determined on by
the mere statements of Honourable Members. He should always
be reedy to speak in favour of any measure really calculated to be
beneficial to Ireland, and that would in any way facilitate tea corn-
menial prosperity ; but lie did hope that it would not be considered
right by this House to grant a beuetit at the expense of justice, and 11
to the utter destruction of vested rights.
Mr. J. S3IITH spoke in support of the Bill.
Mr. S. RICE said, although he could not retrain from expressing
hs gratitude to the Right lion. Bart. for introducing this question,
yet he should at present abstain from entering into the merits of
the question, inasmuch as Ile was anxious to notice some of the
observations which had fallen from the Right Hon. the Chancellor
of the Exchequer ; because, although he was ready to acknow_
/edge the pleasure he felt at much which that Right Hon. Gentle-
man had said, yet there was part of his (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer's) speech which he (Mr. S. Rice) could not avoid ob-
serving upon. He agreed most perfectly with the Right Hon. (sent.
that the discussion of this subject in the House must be guided
by principles ofjustice; so far was he ready to act upon three prin-
ciples, that if it should be made appear that the fair and legal con-
struction of the Charter of the Bank of Ireland was such as to pre-
vent this Bill from being brought in, then he would readily admit
it to be a complete answer to the Right Honourable Baronet, and
in support of the negative of the question. But when the Right
Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) spoke'.
of an equitable construction of the: Charter. he (31r. S. Rice)
could not then help adverting to the language of an Honourable
and Learned Friend on a late occasion, and say, that in order. for a
party to claim the benefit of such a construction It behoved I to
come into Court with clean hands, and show that he had done
every thing he fairly and justly could, and had acted in cunformity
to the very spirit of his contract. Now what had been the conduct
of the Bank of Ireland ? ('p to very lately it refused to render
any accommodation whatever to any house except it was connected
with Dublin ; and therefore those persons in Ireland who sought
to promote trade in remote parts of the country were obliged to
appointer agent in Dublin; the consequence of which was an in-
crease of expense to a davezunt of 7 per cent instead cat 5.

' He knew the Bank of Ireland had altered its practice of late, but
he did not thank the Bank fur that, but his Honourable Friend
the Member for Decry (Mr. Dawson). With regard to the real
cause of the opposition of the Bank of Ireland to provincial banks, he
attributed it entirely to the jealousy entertained on the part of that
body to the introduction of English capital. Much as this intro•
duction would benefit Ireland, he thought it would not be in point
of capital only ; but by these banks being superintended by Eng-
' linhmen, they would operate as a inoral correction on the people of
Ireland. Ile believed the present was the only question on which
the whole of the people of Ireland minus the Bank of Ireland, and
the whole of the Members far Ireland minus those connected with
the Bank, were united : and he therefore hoped the Right lion.
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give it his support.
Mr. I'RA NT spoke a few words on the subject, but we could
itot collect the tenor of them.
3lr. U. FITZGERALD expressed his gratitude to the Right
Honourable Bart. fur the measure ha was about to introduce, which
would so materially benefit the people of Ireland. lie saw no
reason why provincial banks should not be. introduced. They could
not interfere With the interests of the Bank of Ireland, inasmuch as'
that Bank would not discount a single paper unless it were accepted
by a person residing in Dublin. It was only by the introduction
of a greater quant•ty of specie that the internal trade of Ireland
could prosper; and in his opinion it was a matter of the greatest
import ince to Introduce some banking establishment in those parts
of Ireland where thecirculating inedito» was so deficient.
Mr. SNEYD defended the flank of Ireland; during the late dis- '
tresses in Ireland, much ;toed had been done by it,while the country
derived not the least ssaistance from the private banks.
Mr. ATTWOOD made some observations which were quite
inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. 'f RA NT explained.
Air. M. FITZGERALD explained.
Mr. SNEYD explained ; and said he felt himself warranted in
repeating hi, former assertion.
The question was then put from the Chair, and leave given to
bring in the Bill.
BUTTER TRADE OF IRELAND.
Sir H. PA RNELL rose to move for certain lepees connected
with the butter trade of Ireland. He would have contented himself
with simply moving for the panels. without making any remarks,
bat that the subject was of at ch I resting importance. The House
would judge of its importance front the !act that there was annually
exported from Ireland butter to she amount of two millions
sterling; no other trade in that country was carried to the same
extent. ft was principally carried on by small farmers, and sonic.
times was the only moors they possessed for paying their rent. In
the year 1812 the butter trade Was carried on under very annoying
regulations. True it was that there exiated some before that period,
such as that the casks containing the butter should be branded;
but in 11112 the trade was cramped by the most oppressive and
vexations regulations. The principal one was, that every cask of
butter should be Kole' in optn market, and that in each market there
be men called tasters, whoseolfiee was to taste the butter, and fix the
quality of it according to their respective palates. (A laugh.) For
instance, if the taster declared the butter to be of the second quality,
the price per hundred weight became 10e. less than that fixed for
the first quality ; and the price was reduced ss. more when the
butter was of the third quality. The Honourable Member thought
such a system could not but lead to very ill consequences. (Hear,
hear.) The office of taster was of such'a nature that no respectable
person would accept of it ; this necessarily threw it into the hands
of individuals or a very exceptionable class. As the law then stood
no cask could contain more titan eighty tour pounds weight • of
these casks there were brought into market seven hundred thou-
sand annually ; each of these was to be tasted, and its ()make de-
termines(' according to the discretion of the tester. 16 hether all
were actually tasted or not lie (Sir 11. Pa-nell) did not know ; it was
certain however that their value was fixed by the tasters, and it was
impossible for the House to conceive to Wllat an extent of gross
fraud and oppression such a practice led. (Hear, hear.) Under
the present system that officer fell entirely under the control of the
merchant, arid usually was bribed by hint. As the law then stood
the merchant was allowed to make a deduction of 241. per cask ;
hehowever contrived, under varions pretences, suckles for beamage,
to makes further deduction, so that in general it was 0(1. per cask.
The taster was always paid by the merchant, but in reality the fees
received by him came from the pocket of the vendor of the butter.
The merchant could at any time frighten the taster into a collusion
with him merely by threittening to go toe different marke, to which
place the butter would of cowrie follow. There was another prac-
tice to which he would direct the attention of the House: the
law provides that each cask should be branded as being of '
a certain size ; that however ought to be done by the sworn weigh-
master. The weighmaster had been known to leave the brand
to the cooper, to be used by him far the purpose of defrauding the
public, ar.d for that criminal breach of his duty he of course was
liberally bribed. it was also required by the existing law, that all
better be weighed at the same scale ; from that regulation great
delay usually arose. It was not unfrequent that a poor man,
coming to town with his butter, had to wait one day and a-half
before he got his business done. To show the House the gross cor-
ruption engendered by the system of tasting, he would state to them
that there were many instances In which butter rated at one market
not higher than of the second or third, was, when removed to •
different one, sold for the first quality. The Hon. Baronet pro-
ceeded to say, that he could convince the !louse the grounds of the
Bill of 1812 were fallacious, inasmuch as it professed to prevent
fraud, when the fact was, that since the introduction of that law
frauds had sprung up that were never dreamt of before. All he
now asked of the Howie was, to remove the foolishintgulations then
imposed, and leave the trade altoger,her to itself—such as it now
existed in Westmorland, and in various other pants of Engiand.
He was most anxious to know if the President of the Board of
Trade meant to introduce any measure on the present subject T lie
understood that Right lion. Gentleman to say last year, when the
subject was before the House, that he had some measure in con-
templation. Now that such time had been afforded for considera-
tion, he trusted the Right Hon. Gentleman would redeem :his
pledge. For his :(r.-rt part, he would content himself with moving
for the papers, and leave the House to deal with the subject as
they thought fit. The lion. Baronet then moved for copies of all
memorials and documents presented to the Board of Trade since
the first of January 1824.
Mr. C. GRANT conceived the restrictions under which the
hotter trade laboured to be only of a piece with those impolitic re-
strictions on trade which lately esisted all through the kingdom;
it was a strong ground for altering the butter laws that their object
had not been obtained. LHcar, hear.) Instead of putting an end
to fraud their effect was creating collusion between the merchant
and the officer, at the expense of the seller. The restrictions were
also of • piece with the branding of linen, and whatever objections
were raised as to their continuance with respart to butter, applied
equally to linen. Kith reference to what had been said as to a
promise of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Iluslisson), he begged to
state that that Right lion. Gentleman had no measure at pre-
sent in contemplation on the subject; he was sure the question
could not be in better hands than those of the Honourable Ba-
ronet.

.
31E wished to say one word as to linen. Ile wished to
state the great benefit that was felt from the removal of the cramp.
ing laws in Scotland. lie was sure the manutacturers in the
North of Ireland would be much ple.ssed at a corresponding alter-
ation in the Irish laws.

31r. SPRING RICE, thought that if the Prdsident of the
Board of Trade had even not promised to originate a measure on
the present subject, still it was of sufficient importance to claim his
siltation now..

Mr. DA WSON said there was certainly a strong case made out
with regard to butter, but he deprecated any interference with the
linen lawn. The linen trade was going on well, and tile practice
of branding gave satisfaction to all parties.
Mr. J. GRATTAN hoped the House would not hastily adopt
any measure. but give all parties a fair trial.
Mr. T. WILSON was much more inclined to think the subject
before the House as one for inquiry before a Committee, than one
to be settled by a Bill without any previous inquiry.
Mr. C. GRANT explained.
Mr. M. FITZGERALD did not think the House ought to le-
gislate too flippantly on the question without irquiry. lie begged
to state accordingly a regulation to which the Member for London
(Mr. T. Wilson) was an advising party : all the butter-firkins used
in the south of Ireland were to be made in Cork.
Sir G. HILL made a few observations.
Sir H. PARNELL was quite satisfied with having brought the
subject before the House, and would leave all the responsibility on
the President of the Board of Trade. The Hon. Member said it was
not fair to take the opinions of the cities of Cork or Dublin as to the
existing laws—they were interested in their continuance, an they
were the source of great inennics to them. He thought his Ma-
jesty's Al inisten were bound to take up the question now, as the
law of 1812, which created all the mischief, was brought into Par-
liament by the then Chief Secretary for Ireland. From that law
sprung the present gross system of corruption he would therefore
leave them to remedy their own law.
The papers were then ordered.
IMPOUNDING DISTRESSES IN IRELAND.
On the motion of Mr. S. COOPER, this Bill was read a second
time, and ordered to hems:omitted on Thursday next.
RECOVERY OF SMALL DEBTS IN SCOTLAND.
The Bill for regulating the recovery of small debts in Scotland
was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday
brit.

JURIES.
The House resolved itself into a Committee on the Julies Bill ;
the Report was onlered to he Mmighi ti to-morrow.
GAME LAVI

The House resolved itself into a Committee on the Game Laws
Bill, and to-morrow was fixed for bringing up the Report.
ASSESSED TAXES.
I'pon the motion for the third reading of the Assessed Taxes Bill,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought up a
clause for repealing the tax upon one dog, kept by persons hot pay-
ing the assessed taxes on windows.
Mr. HUME inquired if it was not the intention to repeal the tax
on shepherds' dogs in Scotland ?
The CHANCELIA►R of the EXCHEQUER said. the Hon.
Gentleman was probably not aware that, by an Act of last session,
the tax on shepherds' dogs kept on lanni of a certain size had
been repealed.
Mr. HUME thought that a vexatious tax of a few thousand
pounds might be repealed altogether.
The clause was then added as a elder to the Bill.

WINDOW TAX.
The CHANCELIAM of the EXCHEQUER moved • clause
exempting interior windows from charge.
Mr. HUM E having received any answer, begged leave to
impress upon the Chancellor the propriety of repealing the Shep-
herds' Dog Tax.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQU KR said, the cone
qucnce of such a measure w.itAti be, that everyone would claim ex.