The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1824-02-28 00:00:00

}hissed fat least he had seen a memorial to that effect. He
would not, however, quarrel with-Ministers at present on the sub-
:Ml- With ward to the colonies—Canada, for instance, it should
moat undoubtedly pay its own military charges ohe only claim
this colony had upon us was for the payment of to artillery and
ordnance department. If we gave the province a free government
it would be much better for us; neither could he conceive why the
people of England should pay 25,0001. foe the expenditure of the
lorian Islands. These Islands should be given up to the native
Greeks, who would gladly pay the expenses which attended them.
lie was glad to perceive a reduction on all these matters, which,
he trusted, would be still greater next year.-
1,0901. titr various Servants of Board of Ordnance.
87,3601. for Ordnance in Ireland.
Mr. recollected there were 9,0001. voted for the trigo-
nometrical survey of Ireland. Ile wished to know how the money
was expended. There wss a!so • grant for a similar survey of
England. In what state was the survey ?—when would it be com-
pleted ?
Sir H. HARI/INGE said, the money for the Irish survey was
not yet touched. As to the survey of England, one-third was
finished ; the remaining two-thirds would occupy three years.
Sir J. Ntit4l4llll' reminded the !louse that he hail given
notice for the survey of Ireland some years since, and no result had
followed; it was intended to make the survey of Ireland await
the result of and be governed by that of England. He would pro-
' test against it. A geometrical survey would not he applicable to
Ireland. The most efficient survey for Ireland would be one corn.
pitted under the eve and observation of a grand jury.
Mr. 1101`1.11U RN said he had comniiiiiicatinos with the officers
; at the head of the Ordnance and Engineer Department, and they
highly approved of the scientific survey for Ireland.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, nine years had elapsed since he gave
notice on the matter. and no results whatever had fiillowed.
Mr. 1). 611,15EHT anticipated the beat consequences from the
!trigonometrical survey in this country. All the triangles were
!nearly laid down, and nothing remained to he done hut to till then,
• up, and apply the scientific results to the common circumstances
of life.

people; and he must say, that he thought barraska were a more
desirable mode of accommodating them than by billeting them
1 on the low public-houses in Tothill-fields or Petty France, as, if
this were dune, they would be compelled to associate with the
vilest dregs of London, a circumstance which he did not think
eskula:ed to improve either their morals or discipline.
Sir ii. HERON thought that the mischiefs complained of WOW
from the maintaining so large a standing anny at a period of pro-
found peace ; and as far as it went to overawe the people, so far he
thought it uneimstitutional.
Mr. HIJME submitted that those gentlemen who wanted bar.
racks ought to pay fer them ; for his part he thought the country
nitght do without them. He therefore shi-ild propose an intend-
ment to reduce this resolution front 114,5311. to 100,0001. abating
7,avo. from the Barrack Master's pay, and 7.0001. charged for the
establishment of the riding school at St. John's Wood.
The House then divided—

For the Resolution - - - - 95
For the Amendment - - - 38
Majority - -
On the Resolution for 181,7951. for the Comniissariat Store De.
partment being put--
Mr. 111.511: wished to have a more explicit statement of the
item of 40,9901.; he was desirous of knowing how much of this was
for the Indians . • how much fur New South Wales ; and how much
for the liberated A tiicans.

Sir H. lIA R BINGE replied to the question of the Honourable
Member, but we could not collect the import of his answers from
the noise that prevailed in the House.
Mr. A HER IX stated there were many of the storehouses in
otitlon that might be sold, as they were perf,•ctly ute.ec‘saary.
The grand depot fur corns ought to beat Woolwich. as it pussessed
every facility for shipping stores ; he thought, indeed, that !ha
whole of the Store Department, as at present conducted, might,
with great advantage, be dispensed with ; and that one military
storage might be created, and placed under the superintendence of
the Contmander-in-Chief, and this branch of the Ordnance might
by those means be complett•ly got rid of.
Sir 11. HARDINOE said that the Master-fleneral and Board of
Ordnance were of opinion that the storehouses in l'ooley-street
were necessary. A great part of the stores had been sent to Wool-
wich, where, he admitted, when they had to load an entire ship,
it was the pet krable place for doing it ; but it thould be remem-
bered, that when stores were to be taken in for forty or fifty dif.
ferent places, if you had to send to IVoolvrich it must be done by
lighters, as it was necessary that they should return to the Pool to
he stowed away, as it would be difficult to procure ships to stop at
Woolwich to take in so small a part of their cargo as these stores
generally consisted of; and this mode would be found of far greater
expense than the koeping up of the storehouse,. in London amounted
to. He had no great knowledge on this subject, but he believed
that the method at present in use was the best.
Mr. 111 A MIMI' (»alined his observations to the knowledge
that he did possess, and thetefore had an advantage over the lion.
Member, and that knowledge enabled him to repeat, that these
storehouses are quite useless.
Mr. HUME was glad to hear that a great part of the stores
had been sent to the depot at Woolwich, as the tansfer would save
about 711,0001. per annum to the public ; but still he was anxious
to have an answer to the question he had put originally, respecting
the appropriation of the 40.0001. included in this resolution.
Sir H. lIARDINGE, in reply, said that he believed 20,0001
was for the convicts to New South Wales; 12,04.004. for liberating
the blacks at Sierra Leone ; and 0,0011. for presents to the
, lndians.

Colonel FR EN. CH was of opinion, that the measure should be
carried into effect at once; it should not be done piecemeal. A
great benefit would, he thought, arise front the measure. The
Tithe Bill would give it an additional stimulus, for it would now
be particularly necessary to have the survey.
312,000/. for Half-Pay l Micas in Ireland.
Mr. HUME said he found a charge of 950/. for Ballincollig.
This place was utterly unnecessary, and should be at once got rid
of. No establishment was kept up there. The rent was 1;2010.
per annum ; and to take care of this rent, the farther sum of 9341/.
was paid.
Sir H. HARDING": said this pavnient could not he avoided,
as the officer was a man of distinguished talent, and was sent to
Ireland with the promise of his retired salary.
Sir J. NEWPORT did not see the necessary connexion be-
tween providing for this officer and keeping up the establishment ;
why not place him upon the retired list? As to the place itself, he
had called the attention of the (louse to it before. lie knew there
was not a less sum than 130,01101. expended upon it.
Sir 11. HARDINGE said, the place was let for nine hundred
pounds per annum.
Exchequer Fees, 14001.
Mr. DUME wished to know when the country was to be re-
lieved from this absurd tax ; for absurd it was, that the Treasury
' would not pay its own money, without claiming fees upon it. In
the army establishment alone, there were Exchequer fees of from
20 to 30,0011. He wished to know when this absurd tax would
be repealed.
Mr. li BHRIES said, in the absence of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer it would he difficult for him to give the lion. Member an
answer. These fees were often vested interests. and could not be
done away with at once. The question was, in his opinion, full of
difficulties.
Mr. 111151 E said, if he was allowed • Committee on the subject,
he would put an end to the difficulties, as he would get lid of them
in the course of a week.
Mr. lIERRIES reminded the Hon. Member that many of these
fees were beneficial to the public, as they were in many cases paid
by the suitor on his receiving an employment. The question, he
would repe it, was difficult ; and he would nut answer for the course
which the Chancellor of the Exchequer would pursue.
For the expenses of the Barrack Department in Ireland, 134,3761.
Deduct for sale of buildings, and rent of canteens, 22,0001.
Mr. HUM E was most unwilling that the country should be
covered with barracks ss it was. The barrack expense of England Majority . .
in the year 1797 was 29,0901. ; contingencies for Ireland amounted On our re admiuion into the gallery we found—
to 12,0001.; and at that period there were almost as many troops on Mr. ROBERTSON on his legs, opposing the BilL The Bob.
foot as at present. It was unfair that the system adopted by us in Member observed, that usury laws had been considered necessary in
our mighty struggle should be permitted to remain when that all ages and in most countries. The Romans thought them men-
struggle was at an end. The number of barracks should be tial, and they were generally adopted in their provinces. When
reduced, and so should the eateries of the barrack-masters ; and Cicero went to Silesia, one of his first acts was to establish usury
yet the sums voted in that branch were increasing, if an average laws. The Emperor Justinian also established a similar system at
were taken, from theear 1817 to the year Ittn. This system a maximum of 4 per cent., and to mercantile men at 6 per cent.,
should not be continues; the country ought to return to its former 'hewing the necessity of protecting one class of the community
state. From the year 1817 to the present year there was an increase against the avarice of the other. The republics of Italy, in their
of 4,0001. The barrack-masters were also too highly paid. most prosperous state, modified the rate of interest in conformity
Why, he would ask, should he receive 15s a day in the present with the profits of the age in which they lived, viz. that no person
state of the country ? There Isere also allowances made to them should take more interest than he could get by trade. This
for houee-rents when barracks were empty, and it was notorious that course was found inconvenient, and the lawyers of those republics
half-pay officers would be anxious to accept them, and perform the made it still better for the borrower, and declared it illegal to her.
duties of the station at a much lower rate. There were in Ireland row to the full extent of the profits of trade; by which means a
76 barrack-masters ; 34 of them had 10s. a day, others had 7s. 6d., man might borrow money and put it into trade, and afterwards
others 55.; these sums appeared small, but in the aggregate they make profit by it. These republics were afterwards overturned,
amounted to a large sum. He knew barrack-muters who resided and princes were put over them who abandoned this wise cosine,
one hundred miles from their barracks. The repairs of barracks which had produced so much geicid, and the people afterwards lie-
cost the country last year 30,0001. ; the year before 35,0001.; and greed in wretchedness, the monied men taking every advantage of
he contended that the present number and expenses should be re- them. It lad been said that there were no usury laws in Francs;
duced. but that was an erroneous assertion, for there were usury lees is
Sir H. • HARDINGE said that it was impossible to procure the France, Holland, and Hamburgh. The usury laws of thetlerman
services of any respectable men under the salaries specified. He empire were 6 per cent., and they were in force at Hamburgh. No
would appeal to the lion. Member if it were possible to procure person could lend money beyond the legal interest of the empire. Am
the services of respectable individuals, particularly half-pay officers, exception indeed took place with regard to the discounting of bil s,
at • lower rate than Is. a.day. Government did not obtain from but that did not affect the general question ; he thought this 0411 ry
the Ilan. Member the credit they deserved, for a diminution had ought not to be the first to adopt such a ruinous measurer's the abro-
been effected in this establishment as far as repairs went. The ex. gationof these statutes, which protected the community from the an-
pense in 1822 was 13,4181. ; in 1823, 10,0001. The sum required rice of money-lenders. In the report on this subject, Mr. Preston had
for 1824 was 9,0001. ; thus within that time there was a reduction given a most enlightened statement, and hod been most candid in
of 4,0001. It was necessary to keep the buildings in repair, other- showing where the laws against usury were evaded ;he told the
wise government would have to build new barracks in a short time. Commiuee that bankers lent money at 10 per cent- in this way,—
li the Honourable Member (Mr. Hume) could point out any in- they lent 10.0001. to a customer with an understanding that I e was
stance in which the Board of Ordnance had done wrong, it should only to draw 5.0001. out of their hands. Jews, and pesos a con-
be remedied. lie must contend that the establishment of a netted with them, he also stated, evaded the laws; but that was no
riding school at St. John's Wood was necessary, if it was required argument in favour of the abrogation of them. The Usury Laws
that the education of the army should be consistent and uniform ; were first established at the Reformation, and they came into %w-
-and if the necessity of the riding school was conceded, he was pre- ration in the reign of Elizabeth. He would ask the House to
pared to show that the estahlishment could not be conducted on a look at the state of the country before and since they were establish.
more reasonable scale. blished. Subsequent to their estublishment the country had gone on
Colonel DAVIES said, that there were barracks kept up now, in a progressive state of comfort and prosperity. In Europe there was
where there was no chance of troops ever being quartered. He was no state that the House could draw an example front, as to the result
astonished at the charge of 84,0001. for the barrack service in Ire- of the abrogation of these enactments. The law of the National Con-
land. It was difficult to may, without some detail, what part of this vention of France, that declared money was goods, was the only es.
expense was unnecessary ; but he felt convinced that the sum of ample toguide them in Europe. and wretchedness that was produced
84,0001. was too much. It was quite absurd now for members might be recollected by many who heard him. When the Usury Lairs
on his side of the House to move amendments, as they were sure to were abrogated, money would not be lent by the year, but by the
find themselves in a very small minority, but he must state that month, week, or even day, which brought on misery to the pople
if Parliament did not watch these proceedings more narrowly than that could scarcely be contemplated by those who had not expo.
it had done of late, great abuses would spring up. rieneed it. China was the best example, and she gave a Imam that
Sir H. HA it DINGE obeerved, that it was impossible to furnish this country might profit by. TI-. interest of money in China (We-
eny further details than what the House were in possession of. The tuated from 2} to 30 per cent. ; which system brought property
resolution was founded on the estimate of a Board of inspectors into a few hands, and destroyed the middle clam of society ' • and
selected from Officers of Engineers, men of honour, and who had that would be the case in this country if the measure of the Hon.
no motive for deceiving Government, but be certainly defied any and Learned Gentleman should pass into a law. Great stress had
person to detect errors unless the the local details were known. With been laid by the supporters of the Bill on the notorious factsf the
regard to the pay of barrack-masters, it should be recollected that present law being evaded by annuity brads, for which Di intclzat
these were officers in the army, chosen from the Half-pay List, and of even 12 per cent. is paid. But Mr. Preston had said that • mil-
k was well known that they were obliged to relinquish their half. lion • year was the extent of these grants ; and at no period had
pay while holding any other employment under Government, and, there been more than five millions out in annuities by this system.
therefore, he did not think their pay was too high. The country believed that the House would not entertain the ma-
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that if the number and state of the sure otherwise the table would have groaned with petitionsagainst
barracks in Ireland were now brought before the House, he was it. It would make the greatest difference to the landed interest,
convinced they would be condemned. Most of them were built because the persons who at present lend money on land, and who
during the war ; and now they were of no sort of use, being chiefly are happy to have it remain at five per cent., would, on the abro-
unoccupied. Where, then, he would ask, was the necessity of gation of the statutes in question, demand six or seven. The
such an immense charge for their repairs ? He was convinced the Usury Laws were useful in every point ; and they did not interfere
whole was a notorious job, as many of them were built within the with discounts, as was imagined. Mr. Gurney, a great bill-broker,
last 12 or 14 years. said before the Committee appointed to consider these laws, that
Mr. (1011eBURN was surprised that the Honourable Member ha never found a difficulty in discounting bills, excepting in one
should complain that there had been no detail of these barracks, as year, when the Governtnent had borrowed 120 millions. This
it must be-within the recollection of the House that about two shewed that the laws were not injurious, but that they opposed
years ago a statement had been laid before it, of the number of avarice. The lion. Gentleman concluded by praying and entreat.
barracks in Ireland, and an exact calculation of di - number of into ing the House to consider well before they destroyed a system that
and hones they were capable of receiving ; he therefore thought had prayed of the greatest aervize to the country for centimes, and
that Honourable Members were going too far, in saying that the well to reflect that when once destroyed they could not put them
(louse was completely in the dark as to these particulars. And It again in force. The mischief would then be done, and if they
should be remembered, that during the war accommodations were thought lightly of that mischief, he implored Gentlemen to look
made for the reception of 117,000 men. The troops hi Ireland were at the state of Asia, where no laws against usury existed. The
now reduced to 26,000, consequently the greater part of the bar- , lion. Oentlentan then moved, that the Bill be committed that day
racks must be unoccupied. 'six months.
Mr. 1110111:0USE wished :to Impress most earnestly on the I Captain 31 ABERLY did not rise to go into • history of
Noble lard (tralinerstin) and the House, the objection that he had ancient times, but would confine himself to the present. The first
taken the other night to the converting the Mews into bedecks ; lie I point to be considered was, were the laws 'aline ? To decide that
could now state, that a petition was now in the course of signature I they were, it was necessary to prove that the legislature could know
among the inhabitants of Weatutinster against this nuisance ; he I the real state of every borrower as well as he did himself, betbre it
certainly, as had been stated by his Hon. Friend (('ol. Davies) I could be fairly inferred that it ought to fix a maximum on interest.
felt the difficulty of now getting up a division (laughter); but ! The next question he would ask was, if the Hon. Membee's
the Noble Lord knew that in 1819, fifteen or twenty divisions had alarms were well-founded, how dial it happen that money should be
been comets) on the 'subject of the erection of barracks. The House I lent at less than 5 per cent., even at 2,1 ? The next point to which
should remember, that since the year 1315, there had been voted he would advert was, that the law was good. it was ineffectual for
for this serviee, for England, the sum of 1,299,0001., and for every day its enactments were infringed. The most frequent in-
Ireland 1.314,000 L, making a total of 2,013,0458., for doing feingements of the present statute was, by money advan.d in con-
that which, at a former period, any Englishman, deter. tinuation, by fictitious sales, and by money advanced on annuity.
mined to be free, would not have submitted to. lie The law was unjust, impolitic, and ineffective, and therefore he
wished to know how long this system was to last. Ile should vote the the Speaker's leavirg the Chair.
very well recollected the occasion on which the troops were Alderman El' GATE was anxious total a few wor la on the int-
first put into the Mews. He then thought it wrong; but portantquestion which was then before the House. It hail been argued
he supposed the were now to be confirmed there to overawe that the L'sury Laws lost their effect, hawse the interest of money in
the people. Twit is the motive; and no one in that House London anal elsewhere, was frequently less than five per cent. He
would get up and deny it. He felt are that England' would read part of the report of the Committee of May 13, 1818.
at the present time, slid not require that control, as every oae It stated there was no necessity for repealing the Usury laws
mug acknowledge that the best and most loyal sentiments ex- while money could be procured under the usual interest. This or-
bited among the people. Ile had often been solicited by his curved immediately afterwards—not from the cessation of war, but
Icotins
turnte to bring dais grievance before Parliament. They from circumstances connected with the Treasury. lie would ask
complained that they were awoke early in the morning by the who were the persons. who brosight this question forward; were
beating of drums, which, although it might be very necessary for they landed or were they connected with mercantile
the purposes of discipline, was still felt as a great nuisance by interests? 'o. They were lawyers and capitalists---the very
Ithose who very not of the military order. He almost questioned lest people in the world whew opinions he would take on such a
the right of the Crown to close the Mews, it having been so subject. And how were such propositions brought forward ? If,
long open as a public thoroughfare ; but when he presented the persons who were allowed to name a committee, which committee
petition he hail alluded to, he would argue this subject more was composed of those whothought with then,and who in their turn
fully. In the ine4.l time, he trusted that the Gallant Officer nominated such witnesses as they thought proper. lie (Mr. Her-
would suspend this resolution, or state some specific reason for gate), before he had the honour of being a Member of the House,
the adoption of the Mews for such • purpose. was himself once asked to give evidence on this v subject. Ile
Sir 11. HARDING": said that he woitld not then argue the said he did not agree with them in opinion, and ery
the reply was—
question on its constitutional bearings, with the lion. Member for Oh then, stay away. "fhey ought to have had witnesses on
M'eetiiiinster ; but the lion. Member for Aberdeen had can- such Committees very .:11Terent to those they selected. It had been
Iplained that the soldiers were separated front the people. It j asserted in the House, and it had gone over the country, that in
should be recollected that this was done at the request of the no other land whatever was there Usury Laws existing. The fact

The resolutions were then agreed to, the House resumed, and
the Report ordered to be received on 3imular next.
ORDER OF THE DAV.—L`StRY LAWS.

On the Order of the Day being called,
Sir R. HERON wished to ask the Ilan. Member (Mr. Sergeant
Onslow) whether he would persist in bringing on the qnestion of
the Usury Laws, at so late a period of the evening, when many
Iklembers had been engaged for more than nine hours ?
Mr. Sergeant ONSIMW stated, that on Friday last he had
postponed the question at the request of both the supporter and
opponents of the measure: he could not consent to any further
postponement, as the hour was by no means so late as to render
such a step necessary. (Cries of •• Go on, go on !")
The SPEAKER was about to put the Order of the Day, when a
division was called for, and strangers ordered to withdraw, when
there appewed—
For reading the Order of the Day -
Against it .

. as

- Y 1