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London, England, 1808-06-14 00:00:00

been stated as to the manner iu which that Com-
mittee had been funned, atql he still looked upon
that objection as Wing justified by the Report now
upon the table. There were, in his opinion, va-
rious farts, of which the House ought to be in
possession, before they proceeded to vote any great
sum of motley to the East India Company.
Mr. IX s DAS simmered, by observing, that if the
Noble Lord had waited till he had heard his mo-
tion relative to that Company, his objection would
most probably have been rendered unnecessary.
Mr. l'steLycy supported the objection of Lord
Folkestom.
Upon the question being put, the House weut
into the Committee.
Mr. Due DAR then stated, that it would be un-
necessary for him to say much, as the Retie% t con-
tained most of the facts that were necessary to be
detailed. Some misuistierstanding had arisen be..
tween the Aecousitaiits of the l'ompany and the
public, which were referred to the Committee tip-
poiuted upon East India atlisirs, who bad t hou eta
sit necessary to adhere to the principles laid clown
by the former Committee. The first article
charged by the Company well the expense of pri-
setters of war conveyed by His Majesty's ships to
hull', immediately upon capture, which neve.ssa-
rily be..earue chargeable upon the public ; and the
nest wits the expense of remitting to India such
sums of money as had been paid by the Company
to the public Pi liquidation of the balance owing
to them. A question had bath stetted, as to whe-
ther the public should be lamod to pay iu India
the mosey so borrowed, or to the Company in tins
country, and disputes had arisen as to the rate of
interest to be allowed. It had been, however,
settled, by the Report of the Committer, that not
only the expense of the remittunce of bulliou to
India, but the usual interest of that place, where it
was originally borrowed, blend(' be paid. pin.
these grounds he did not feel himself justified in
culling upon Parliament to make any loan to the
Company farther than that which had been for-
merly stated to he actually ascertained to be due.—
Mr. Itundas then concluded whin moving—
" That it is the triiiiiios of this Committee, that a stun not
emtreilio4 1,300,0001. he granted to His Majesty, to ca.ihrle
him to pry the East India cowman, the ests:uses Weaned
by them for the public service."
Lord FOLKESTONE still persisted in his former
objection, that there was not sufficient iufonnatiou
before the House, to enable it to judge of the pro-
priety of such a sgsnOt. He accordingly mined, air
as asneneintent to the motion.“ That instead of the
sem asentiOned in the motion,- the sum of 31. be
Mr. Cneevey objected to the motion, upon the
ground if the charges made out by the Company
against the public not being properly ascertained .
In none of their former statements lied they ever
made out a charge for the transmission of bullion
to India.
Mr. TIEINST spoke in favnnr of the Resolu-
tion. Although the Committee appointed to in-
quire into their affairs were not vested with the au-
thority of arbitrators, yet they bad been appointed
to ascertain the amount of the debt due upon
either side. The result of their inquiry was, that
2.300,0001. were found due by the public to the
Company, part of which having already been pinch,
this vote was only for am acknowledged bulauee,
joined to some further subsequent claims. The
point at issue, therefore, between him said the Noble
Lord, was relative to the rate of interest and the
mode of transmitting payment of the debt due by
the public to 'wile. As to this, he hail no doubt
of the charge made by the Company being per-
feet!), fair and reasonable, and that if their ac-
counts had been submitted to a Master in Chan-
cery, the amount of their claim upon the public
would have been nearly four millions, instead of
the suns at which it had been charged ip the Re-
port. lie could not really see apy just grounds
fur ohjecting to the liquidation of the debt as now
charged, as it was strictly due to the public. If the
Noble Lord was determined to persist in objecting
to any. part of that debt, he shanld et least. allow,
even in hisamendinent. that which he might look
upon as niobjectionable.
Lord FOLKESTONE stated, that the principle
upon which he had proposed a grant of five pounds,
was merely for form sake. as he objected to Ow
voting of any sum whateter upon the Report in its
present imperfect state. Ile did not object to the
paying of Indesu interest to much us lie did to the
expense which was charged for carrying out bul-
lion to India. If money were burrowed in Scot-
land, or any other place whatever, by a person re-
sident in this country, the troahle and expense of
carrying it bac,, was never charged.
Sir Joint ANSTRUTIIE said, he most heartily con-
curred in the resolution which had been submitted
to the Committee, twit appeared to him it was fair
and rents:able the Company should receive pay-
ment of the 'floury in the same place, and in the
same manner, in which it had been borrowed. The
public must be paying interest for that money, un-
til such time as it was sent out to India, soul there-
fore he thought there could be no question us to
who slioisltl bear the loss. It was iincloulatilly the
public who hail been benefited In, the selvisnees
which had been made, soil he could not help think-
ing the Coinpany world have done better, had they
sought their payment by bills drawn upon India at
the usual rate of exchange ; for it was undoubtedly
the cheapest way for the public to send out the
bullion. By the report of the Committee, it ap-
peared that there were additional claims of 470,00 11.
against the public, the payment of which had been
suspended, on account of objections reenlist them.
every one of which was substantiated by dons-
meats coining from the Advocate General's (Aire,
shewing they were still unaudited.
Mr. WILBEaVOICS and Lord \loner:Tit seve-
rally stated their suntinieuts iu favour of she tori
net resolution, and Lord Folkestsise's amessilinent
was negatived without a ; also were se-
veral other limitations of the twit:inn' %17111, which
he afterwards proposed in the shape of amend-

ousts.
The original re.nlntinn was then put awl agreed to.
SICILIAN SUNSICI*

..... _
TIM CHANCSLI.OR of the F.x.t.lit.QUEß nett pro-
ptnetl to the Committee, in pur•nnn!• of His fiLpo
jeoty's Alettoage, the Intlowing 11,,olution
•l'f% the sum of 300,0001. be granted to His NI! jest!, to
enable him to woke mood the cavigewteuts which he has at-
tired into with Ilia Sicilian 31-.. jest) "
Mr. WlllTattblci) rout, fu• the purpose of ,c•ot-

thee some questions relative to tl e Treaty, by
which tins grant was clue. Thi'quesitions which
the lilu. Gentleinan put related to the length, of
time that had etansed before the couch:slim of the
Treaty ; the forte end ammunition which was to
be kept up for the defence of the island ; and 'align,
why two fortresses only were to be retained by us,
while the fortress of Melazzo should also have been
in our possession, in order more effectually to de-
-1 cure its defence.
Mr. CAN MING, in MIS* er to the first question, re-
lative to the time when this arrangement was made,
',tasted, that it originally took place at the coin-
nieuctented of the war, between the King of the
'f was Sicilies and France.
Mr. ELLIOT Mated objections as to the policy of
British troops being under the coutinand of • Rus-
sian General, while, at the saute time, the over-
throw urthe Austrian arms enabled the French to
pour their it lioje form into Italy, by which the
Neaptilitan Government was involved inure imme-
diately in war. Although it was evident that the
King of N epics and Sicily could. not 'Dinned"' such
a levee as was necessary fur his dt ICIICV, 34. t. in us
much as the obligations of thei country were thereby
rendered more clear, and its interests inure precise,
in the same proportion, it became more inex-
pedient fur us to assist him in hie then predieu-
went, as it. was doubtful whether lie should be
under a necessity of joini aig the cause of France, or
look to Great Britain for assistance. It was out
till the month of llcceinher. 1805, when the King
of Naples adopted his resolution of retiring to
Sicilj, and lie then had positite assurances of assist-
ance fr.tn the then Government. of a subsidy, to
the amount of es,unul. a month, or 300,0001.
year, upon the recommencement of hostilitiee on
The part of Frunce. Although this egreeineut was
arranged upon these principles; v et, owing to the
state of the Aduunistration of Om lust weeks of
1805, and the beginning of tete:, no steps could be
takett tow arils adjusting the othe r measures, in regard
to the force to be supplied. There was, however,
no neglect of public duty, owing
.to the change of
Arlministratime which took place in 1806; for very
soon after, application was made by the Sicilian
Minister here, as to carrying this measure into ef-
fect ; assurances were given, that as soon as pos-
sible a Minister should he sent to Sicily, in order
to reduce it into a form of a regular agreement.
Nothing could be done during the secretaryship
of Mr. Fox ; but at the same time payments were
made through the hands of our Minister, and
through General Fox, subject to their controul.
—Mr. Drummond was at the same time dis-
patched to Palermo, but had nut succeeded in re-
ducing it into a proper form, before the dissolution
of l'arliament,and another change of administration,
had taken place. It was not returned till the month
of July or August last year, and when it did come,
it appeareti that Mr. Drummond, either from mis-
conception, or from some other cause, had admitted
some stipulations which were nut thought right
Ilia Mejesty should agree to. It could net there-
fore helmet. before Parliament, so that the nego-
elation was renewed, nod the treaty now before the
House was what had been the result. As to the
other kind of assistance to be afforded, it was
judged most prudent that Mv. Drummond 'lmolai
act with cnutiou till matters were otherwise fully
adjasted. Next, as to the fortress the lion. Geutle-
man had alluded to. he believed it was 'already in the
hands of the British ; and the minimum of force
deemed suffitient for the defence of Sicily amount-
ed to 10,000 men but this country bad it iu its
power to send more if it thought necessary. lu
point of fact, there teas Dow in Sicily a much larger
force than was required.
Lord flamer Parry expressed his satisfaction
at the unswees which had been given by the Right
Don. Getttlemait as it appeared, that every exer-
tion had been used to defend that important island.
While he thought it was prudent to observe the
moat watchful jealousy upon such occasions, yet
he could not help observing it might have been pru-
dent to have reserved some further power in the
Treaty, to enable us to put Sicily in the utmost
possible state of defence.
Mr. WHITBREAD also expressed himself satisfied
with the answers given to his observations; yet he
should like to know how the money already so be-
stowed had been employed ? Ile should still wish
to have seen that part of the Treaty, as to the for-
tresses, otherwise worded.
Mr. CANNING replied, that had we kept all the
three fortresses, by the stiPulatioe, we should have
been pus under the necessity of keeping more
troops there than what we might afterwards deem
convenient. The rummy already granted had been
carefully laid out in strengthening the island, and
an isccount rendered. •
Mr. WINDHAM could not undertlaud, why
we had not stipulated for the possession of the
fortress of Melaws, as well as those of Augusta
and Messina. •
Mr. Wtteraroace disapproved of that clause
in the treaty which rendered it indispensable that
both powers should ha included in making a peace.
Ile thought that part experience, in this respect,
should render this country enure cautious.
Mr. CANNING observed, that it was no doubt
desirable, if ever the possibility occurred, to restore
His Sicilian Majesty to his origieul dominions. It
was one of the stipulation', in the :ast negociatiun
with France, that that power should Ise included.
Mr. BA kEs disapproved of the enotinuatice of
such a practice, by which we were to be bound by
such engagements in regard to peace.
The Iteeolittion was then put and agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the Exentuu ER then pro-
posed,
• 'rant a sera, not exeradiag seo,eonl. be granted to His
Majesty towards the relief uf the several persons whose
houses and property were destroyed by the (ire at Hussman,
in the Island.,/ Dominica, occasioned by the firing uf ear
guns ofgaite.t the mercy."
Mr. W INDIUM observed, that it mattered not
whether it was occasioned by our guns or those of
the enemy ; but the question ought to depend
upon the uteritorous conduct of those to vilioat this
relief was to be grunted ?
'Mr. Alderman CERTIs expressed his high appro-
bation oh the Ilesoluttois proposed, anal lie wished
tint some person iu the Hume of greater It right
that' liiinself—/A head lattgli)—would propose as
an Ainettrlment " That double the suns stated
shoald lie granted to these sufferers."
Mr. Ttetteer thought that each should have a
proportional there, ars:wain to ins loss.

The CPANCELLOI of the EirHrivra trial, that
the sum he had proposed wa, accordiug to au ap-
pointment already mule out.
Mr. Yoacx considered the conduct of the inha-
bitants so meritorious in effectually resisting so
very considerable * force brought agatust the eo-
lolly, that he *vas resolved to vote tor the larger
aum, luomoul. which he had heard would he but
one-half of the loss sustained by these meritorious
sufferer*.
Mr. BARRAM thOU4ht it would have been better
to distribute the grant specifically to those who bud
suffered most, or were least able to bear the low.
Several persons who were now to be remunerated,
he had heard, were at the time in London and other
places, and some of them were females, who could
have taken no great share in the defence of the
colony. _ . .

Earl TEEPEE hoped there would be presented
shortly to the Howse sonic correct account of the
intended distributiou of so considerable a sum of
public money.
Lord CASTLERSA.OII considered the distribution
propos:eel by the lion. Member unjust to the merits
of the iudivirluals, and dangerous to the peace aad
union of the inhabitants of the colony, The re-
lief should be getmerallj extended to all the suf-
ferers.
Earl TEMPLE grain observed. be wished those
who had been most active in the defeuce of the
town should be more immediately remunerated.
inasmuch as they hada double claim on the bene-
volence of Government.
The 0W1011.1.01 of the EXCIUQUER thought
no fair line of distinction could be justly drawn
' between the respective merits of the injured lois-
bitant. Females, he thought, theuld is amply
compensated as others, and any distinction at-
tempted to be drawn, must inevitably be unjust to
seine particelar persons. The sum of 50,0001. the
one-fourth of their loaves, was the utmost, he
thought, the House could votes with due regard to
the state of this country.
Mr. Possoune did not conceive the intended
distributions by being voted without any distinc-
tion, would best answer the ends expected to be ac-
complished by the mover of the grant. There
were two descriptions of persons whom it was in-
tended to remunerate—the meritorious in the de-
fence of the island, and those who had been re-
duced to indigence by the calamities of war. The
present mtle of distribution was not calculated to
effect kith as it made no different* whatever be-
terms those who might have, by a comparatively
small loss, been reduced to beggary ; nhilst many,
who had experienced considerably greater losses,
stood in no need of remuneration.
The original motion then passed for the grant of
the smaller sum.
The following cams were then granted—
Per defraying the expeaers incurred by Cummia.
Messrs i.e Military !wintry - L.ei,oso
To certain tuismiasioaers for discharedic sums
lof orboey, sea iespsetiag accounts relatm. to
oar sett lemmas oa the Coot tarot of America
Far eumpeusatia; the Commissionets simulated
to inspect aatl eutiti‘t the Bettis' b Museum
Yoe repairing ti.e Wes, sastabeed from the vio-
lent nouns of the t atoned istla of Jae. tteo9, in
time harhontotind a Woof morgate
For improving item harbour of nolyhme -
The s.sestion being pat on this sum,
Mr. SnERI DAN said, he was surprised to beer of
seen a vote. especially when there had been of late
years disc-mitred it much better harbour ; but be
feared that the reason this had nut been brought
iota general use, in our communication with Ire-
land, woe+ owing to the strong interestand influence
which had been excited in favour of the Holyhead
Captains, most of whom were settled in houses at
Holyhead. and had used all their exertionto prevent
the discovery of this harbour being generally
known.
Sir A:WHIM WZLLESLST thought the harbour•
of Holyhead the beet in Wales. The other alluded
to he had heard a very different description of ;and
was therefore in hopes the House would have no
objectiun to ref air the works of Holyhead, for
which there existed a direct necessity. in this opi-
nion he was supported by Mr. HEIBERT.
Mr. PARNELL thought it singular such an ap-
plicution should be made before those estimates
and papers he had long since applied for en this
subject should be produced.
Mr. FOSTER objected to the sitnstien of the new
Imarimeur, us being several miles to the south of the
Head, which he feared would render it frequemmey
ditheult of averse; and, iu itself, the harbour ass
extremely dangerous. No Captain would, there-
Mre, in the roughest weather, take shelter ; and
this the I etlit I lon. Geutleman might have known,
if he bud time opportunity of making any persuital
inquiry into its situz.tiou and circuturtances.
Mr. SHERIDAN admitted he never yet had seen
Holyhead--yet he had formed an idea of its infe-
riority to the new-found hay, of which he did not
yet know the came.--(A lawgh). This bay had.
when it was customary in Ireland to pigeon
Lotteiy. lx-emm the constant resort of all the pigeoti-
boats ; anti he had been informed by a friend, that
to this day speedy intelligence was often scut
by
that route in preference to the other. All these
natural advantage% notwithstanding, had fatless
before the powerful influeuce of ancient prejudice
and venertAmle predilection. tinseled with the opt-
ration of the Holyhead Captains' strong interest ,
exerted to close up that harLour.
Mr. IV AIME I.L knew well the harbour of Port.
yn-clyne, and the mesons of the prejudice agaiest
it were such as stated by the Night lion. Gentle.
mash It was capable of containing thirty sail cm
the largest vessels; and was there only u fair
tri
of competition given to the two, he was satisli“
the present harbour would, in less than 10 yews.
be totally out of use.
Mr. WHIT/till:AD thought there should he 40111.:
plans submitted to the ;lutist.. ou the expemlietey
of the grant.
Si rA RTIIUR Wr.f.r.rAct:v sniml. be bad focinm .1
topinitin from the ril tie of Mr. ftet...
burveyor of the first
Mr. NV AILDRI. could ra,mly necomit for the opt
nion he had given. Mr. Itemmy It a. tio• hwr.•
who tad been etigalm! u., build the 1ir;.1.2,
Nlenai and Conway, %Ouch would be rem iered
to
necesatry should the new Ini,lnnir canto inn, In,.
After some (Amery:o4ms Mon lllr. Fos ci
BERC•FORD anti Mr. S.
Earf Tesirtx thought it mumpropei to mealm a:

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