The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1825-05-11 00:00:00

..• 'Y _

S.'..

ig. 111.64.102 0W.4611111. will .1111.4
agulf"attateaterthllndloba The lbw men or the se-
lf Bualissres, le mown isselkweet amnia.
which fuel ass soul apse tor oemeoyinee bob= Wake all
these circumehhees ha =aid iseemad, ISO ibetwar=aj?!._llollll,_
religion was maw changed as= jastifh • ****l* be
the securities which we now held. Noe Mit see= deer thee the
Proposed concession would satisfy the Omilmilles. Ilio raw= so
the evidence of Doyle helot. the Commlttes„ and to his pam-
phlets, which were in his opinion inandowet and inwesnleilis.
He referred also to the speeches of ilte.Creonnell, eel be said
the House whiten" teith suers their ocknowledged senthisete k tees
secure to admit Basque Catholics to a ohm -in the Gersrassese.
But there weemeeeldence that the Irish Citiolks weld be smelled
with emancip_adme. In 1798. Dr. 111•Neein bed WM ohm the LAW
Vona did est value emandoetistn. ar. Ibiglotatii.was
considered geed authority. said, the mese elf W
don't awe • foil foe einancipatioo. nee be telblin, stetiMilt
Illteuld kW to the abolition of tithes. Oliver Best ist his meal-
entism, said, that the United Irishmen were eetablldted to ranee,
a refone, and that emancipation was • mere wept When asked
ettlether the mass of the people cared ihr eleamoirehoo, the
owl, of Alm Bond was--" Those who think Ike IMO do:" (Hem,
beep) It was easy tor men to raise a storm, thew. deep had wet
O=W to allay it ; but, in his opinion, du tessewit norild on
the people of Ireland if it sheet be yew= Iminerrow.
Wiennidered that protection was du right of illen,.bet
pewee et no men; and in many Oat via
' mak up of netimoions of particular laeli med Thew
weneelmes woo view ty withhi the were sad or *4
lidos
einedtetis and Mere could Opt no
.dsebt ihn ad'
week Mit se
nag by the pedieebs =WW Of
_, lon-
Ana toriekneg nem into sho alms! In. Pis-
vileges of the dune. as they AM N into their age, wo-
wry, fed other ciratustanoes. If the nosature now la enocan-.
plosion were se pass late • law, three rem would not have slaps=
tie it would be found inadequate to rte 'Wert. If he eieshined
the milieu see required by ***time 4 the =no be we l& **P-
Pon k; bet se the wronged sognament k Ws sew WINI Wu et vs-
poliony. he w 011 weld est now 110111 le a= the mottled
whine hie bed Mew= ei rat peararkh liillisinedare:
last Ihrome. ..
Y.T. I. TWIS--ft lillairtateuz ~
..1 aon I 114
alien Slit 'measure bean. that . ne
etereiteently with the spilt the ' ..
posed relazatin• (It was neldis. dew* Mai
Isnot or that Constieutiesk;
answer to this objection he . idiesnon of
thd House to the cones of • view
of the case' which, as far as be • ' '
noticed. It would save time and • V ' * '''' ...„,
~
their inquiles to dip ' of . et; .
Parliament,
. .
improper w mint chum Iwo, an we • tit Pet
they ahauh be *elude/ *see caw ellowle Medi= mu net
his wish to bed she Homeliest le Ileinielneerpelledmor English
History, beam they mom eilltailloewiltditioneteeme if certain
penal statutes warm the Remo dichellecclecdons * the Bever.
lotion. Whew is the odeloonso 11. the seewiellesiesions
which afft cud dbQereliw waiwiehlished, omit mews were
assigned tor shoe weineeset,whish. if they were spesegieslid now,
he would ado* proved Me weeosity of statutes
in the same mass still. Bet if, oo themajotbil= it could be
shown that those reasons cow reader= veld and i , noperative by
the operation of time, it thee bowies isepoweive se the advo-
cates of exclusion either to milemess id= Nona fat the conti-
nuance of these tests, or else eialt Obit neellimelte antleap-
plicability to the present postures( mica In Illosimiga of Mules
Papists had been excluded from gees end Parliliint; but that
regulation was by no means one of a sebsimmere eltirecter, but
adopted as a "help to titers good Liws" all** in existence.
-And what were those divers good laws which Whoa in question
were intended to confirm ? What but the &awe= Of Pains and
Penalties against the Catholics—that nuieenee kid& had been
abolished by the Act passed in 1721. He tie =oared to assert'
that the maintenance of the present restrictions, Which were ori-
ginally only subservient to that code, was a positive injustice.
One reason, among others, for the enactment of the '• divers goon
laws" he had mentioned was the apprehensions entertitined let
the period from the Popish plots said to be in agitation. He
thought it unnecessary to trouble the House upon the subject of
Popish plots in the present day; for if Titus Oates himself were
alive, he would fail to excite apprehensions on that score. Than
reason was wholly removed, and inapplicable at present. But,
said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (the Solicitor-General)
on a former occasion, the exclusion of Roman Catholics at tee
Revolution should be decisive, for that was for the preservation If
the Protestant ascendancy. He (Mr. Twins) thaeght k wit he
the purpose of strengthening and confirming the sew and se yet
unfixed authority of William and Mary. The modern mistehe
consisted in not distinguishing between a permanent principle and
a temporary expedient. He thought every subject entitled to MI
large a share of rights and privileges as he could enjoy consist-
ently with the safety of the Constitution. He acknowledged that
it would be as impossible to establish an exact equality of Ova
rights as an exact equality of property, but it was well to sews es
near the accomplishment of that principle as possible; end it was
because the Constitution of England made the closest approach
to that state of things, that it was the first and best Constitution
in the world. Those who had talked of exclusion as a prin.
ciple of the Constitution were entirely mistaken ; it was not
the rule but the exception that it constituted. The mambo
of Roman Catholics from the offices of the State regahtded hi. if
an occurrence that took place when the Duke dr ailcilashia
Regent in France. On that occasion the Duke had aided •
deal of alarm, by taking • person into his establishment saspeetid
ef Jansenism. Louis XIV., quite shocked at the imputation,
made inquiries as to the tact, but was pacified on learning that the
obnoxious person was not a Jansenist„ but only an Atheist. Sued)
seemed to be the course pursued towards the Roman Catholics- wip
were in a woreesituation than infidels. At the period of the Rev*
Intim the relative numbers of the Protestants and Catholics were
very different nom what they were at the present time. The
Papists then consisted of about a million and a half, and the Pro-
w' ants amounted to about eight hundred thousand. A law which
might be applicable then could not but be inapplicable now, when
the former class amounted to fire millions, and the latter to only
one. If they were disposed to visit the sins of his fathers upon
the Catholic., even to the third and fourth generation, they would
be only acting justly to allow him the benefit of their services to
the State on many other occasions. What would have been the
feelings of the armed Barons who laid the foundation of our
constitutional liberties, if they had been aware that the day would
come when their descendant.% should be shut Nut from the Con-
stitution on accottnt of their religious faith ? (Hear, hear.)
He considered the advocates of the existing tests and restrictions in
precisely the same situation as if those teats had expired ; they had
been proved to be useless, and lie had heard no arguments used
that would at all justify the re-enactment of those restrirtions, sup.
posing they had been permitted to expire. They could not now be
told of the dangers to be apprehended from a Popish Sovereign,
Ike restitution of forfeited !ands. or the authority of the Pope.
The very instance of a Popish Parliament sitting and allow.
ing a tew Protestants (seven or eight, as had been stated) to
possess mats in common with them, proved that they at least
were capable of same degree of toleration. if we were not.
When the opponents of the Catholics charged them with the perpe.
nation of cruelties and excesses, and attributed them all to the
spirit of their religion, he would ask them, was it Popery which
urged Creamer to bum Papists in Smithfield? (Hear, hear.)
When the Roman Emperor broke down the aqueduct, that he might
deluge the unfortunate Christiana, was it Popish bigotry that in.
litigated him ? (Hear, hear.) Or were Apollo and Jupiter in league
with the Pope? (Hear, hear, and laughter.) It was merely poli-
tical. and not religious feeling; religion wag on the surface, and at
most but a pretext. Many Honourable Members contended that
the present was not a proper period for making coneessiona—that
granting a boon now would appear to have been extorted by threats;
it would look as if obtained through menace, if relief were given so
soon after the existence of certain unconstitutional bodies in Ire.
land. The frlonse had hitherto recognised the necessity of giving
to the Catholics certain rights formerly withheld from them; Bill
after Bill had passed for that purpose ; then there were no threats.
Why not then pursue the course hitherto pointed out, rather than
atop short ? Ile put it to the majority of that House, which so
often sanctioned by their votes the claims of the Catholics, whether
they were not called on to preserve their consistency rather than
upset the good hitherto done, be following a different line of con-
duet ? They might now say, "We won't be frightened out of our
vote." 11" hat will they say when Ireland will, in case of a war, be
ready with her weapon either fur the common defence or tor the
dismemberment of the tvm countries? Then they would relieve
her; lie knew they 'multi (Loud cheers.) V. he asked, when
they had ihr broad-swords to their throats, and granted concession,
weal& they escape the charge of cowardice ? (Cheers.) Leland war
for a long time peaceable, and not for many years, until in the late
Speech from the Throne, was she carried to the credit side of the
account. After some further uhservatione, the Hon. Member said,
the fables of their youth pointed out to them the most wise policy.
The wayfaring man, when the wind blew and the cold affected
him, gathered his garments around him ; but when the heat came,
when he came into a kindlier atmosphere, he threw them open to
the genial warmth. As to the question of Emancipation, it welt
every day gaining ground, and he was sure the general opinion was
favourable to it, founded on a persuasion, whether founcitel on fact
he would not pretend to say. that it' the Bill passed through that I
House it would also pass through another place. Some persons
who formerly talked of wars abroad and clamour at home, as a
reason for not granting emancipation, row urged the existence of
peace as • reason for the seine exclasiou. After some further ob.
serrations, the llon.lember expremed his hope that the existence
of severe laws at a former period would not be urged as an argu.
ment for their continuance.
Mr. 11. DAVIS would continue his former ooptritinn, because
he considered the Constitution essentially Protestant, and that if
Catholics would conititne to complain. great chat they tuay, was
it decent or just that the King should be compelled ro con-
tinue Protestant, whilst his advisers might be Catholics ? He con-
sidered that by increasing the pOwer of the Roman Catholics the
House would hut ensures perpetual struggle between them and the
Protestants in Ireland. -The spirit of the Catholic religion was un-
changed; it possessed the same intolerance which always distin.
imbibed it. Under these circumstances he felt himself LJund to
oppose the Bill. .
Mr. CHARLES GRANT said he wished not to argue the'
present question then ; it WAR one on which the House must feel
already exhausted, and which, from its frequent discussion, left '
nothing new to be said on it. He was anxious, however, to de.
liver his sentiments on it, as one necessary for the tranquillity •of
Ireland. He regretted much that he was not present during the
speech of the Hum Bart, behind him (Sir H. Inglis); he regretted

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Ms Ames, beams he eseesseed the H. Baseasy In a meet
' ass pandleale bits,ligaatfqesesite ea am wawa 2
mese af linkmd--as en Magnets►gent
Megginienstafas pawned the maw esswee..mer
tvisla &I win seaeldueska, " what eis tie wenillip
6williger . gnaw, bear.) Her his own part, maker he
r‘uudeblll &IN* aid gismos sane et thee emery, fr waseasts- '
Owed ens he of themmessaie af hie spieled'. blind SO then
teeny"' t ail *aims, ell einimisam bed searsd • • mixtbgthuc-
MOM In Visiones mai dieivalhanse i bat it beear;ve the Heuer to
eras der whether k was net da eleNkiel min, the result of intense
Inskty t whether it did est pared diem the deep interest the
=lreland seek in thilli=bwi:jtheg forward—a
meekest maws were to decide
fete. •Me h Van* smoonvoir ts the debates in that
411 the prism sled am a aintiliFnent of Emu.
=6*hat to estnewity, boa his view, on
1;:fdli ' the state el' 'lifebeed. asked, " weat
11!1a,5!"_,Prillitelleaeleg the tratheniffitty of that eeuntry ?" he
wammeeramor awswaa, end alwayskinad seem shun a di-ect reply.
liters IMAM ligariewe of die 11111110 n, end weu hi-Always give
k .if as olass rows Mt bemuse be looked on it as
tsteapeesMy teawilmill wish the meet sill kitereess—ate eatery and
kelpies* of Mimed; and ekes Hosentrabk Masobets met the
+purism serather monads than. ohms. they trued with it 4--Yeeir
Owens ales a Imre assakery of a selhjett involving such mashy is-
NOM ltilucc.) ?thin even this view, whit Hun. Memben
beadle to liamanpadsa prebend le P_lta, and leaking on it as •
riespdmientititimial question, be *men ark them, had their system
toga kitty ? Inland hes hem' At centuries under the
Bad▪ ef fti, and boa that asenimise predated eiviyrotion ? 1
the, a Mean mamas of gomeenteas—bad they
treated I
seiction sad owsignity wick laafikakilb, then might thoy have reposed
as dm of that wartinhearted people. How
diarist would seer be bee rate? TIN primal hesility to the
Cathdis Maims was sins a sand Wawa a the pal jar chr-
in whisk* Ana SEIM 118.1111,___Mlitilre.d that
icitlitgairZest• *MN Wei" M Wallill set.... "Wu ling .f
thew eqpimass while she mistlepws if Imeuelpetisa were saki
se le arena,. flear.) Wlpt nee lie Ise of argrause pyramid
by these Ilea. ? Miley seemed se have one rah. If he
sad his Mee. gipped a loomono it was Ogees and
„kin
-dais a pommies of amis.
Civrielies,ll4ollll6 Os wows, loorke the Mlle ..,,,,Issir sea-
ihmewri sit the reeks. el soot disk . ea them
"15
(=seslosistarienti=ll%imiatavail if
thilliseT.PriTsq M InAseeed
.weld ow Mmillaffidei Reis the ate ree rialiecTilleimbere to
*boil he ale to argue, that ttf 'Wool the duty would
proosobitemtiggliog. Yet suclia line of argument was lately pur-
sued, when it was proposed, from the prevalence at Illicit distilla-
tion, to modify the distillery laws, and lower the duty on spirits.
It was declar..W that the consequences of the reduction would be
ruinous—that the contraband trade must be promoted, "lima do not,
therefore," said they, " reduce the duty." His Hon. Friend (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer), however, was daring enough to pro-
ceed, and the result justified his anticipations. Such 4iis the true
made of Imialatiou, not to tamper with the symptoms, net to
reek to remedy some of the effects, but at once remove the main
rause of the evil. (Hear, hear, hear.) If disturbance prevail,
they take the ground of disturbance for continuing its cause; if
they drive the country to violence—if they goad on its inhabitants
to lawless proceedings, they merely observe that the people are
predlspos to commit crime—that from Stature they are turbulent
and ferocious—that concession cannot quiet them, but rather
tend to give an increased exorbitance to their demands;—
and yet they never condescend to look to the causes of this dis-
turbance—causes which they appear anxious to perpetuate, ut-
terly regardless of the consequences. (Hear.) After sonic further
observadons, the Right Hon. Member proceeded to say that his
Hon. Friend (Mr. H. Davies) was shocked at the gnevous dif-
ficulties in which the Monarch of these realms would be placed by
passing the Bill then before the House. His lion. Friend looked
' on it as an anomaly that the King should continue Protestant
whilst all his advisers might be Catholics. If it were anomalous
that such should be the ease, a no less extraordinary anomaly
existed at the present moment ; for the King must be Protestant
though surrounded by Presbyterien adviser,. Olean hear.)
Another ground of opposition to the Bill was, that it recognised a
spiritual jurisdiction in the Pope. When such an objection was
made it seemed to have been forgotten that the Pope's power was
already acknowledged by the 18th Geo. 111. So that the Peie's
authority was not only recognised, but a seminary had been esta-
blished in Ireland for the education of Catholic Priests. (blear,
hear.) Not only was the seminary established, but the education
regulated by Visitors; and the House should recollect that the dis-
cipline of the seminary, and all matters immediately connected with
education, should be under the control of the Catholic visitors only.
With regard to die objections which had been raised as to the
oath taken by Honourable Members at the table of this House, he
should be glad to know whether any Gentleman veer took that
oath under any other sense than that it was a voluntary submission
on the part of the Catholics to a spiritual power, not legal nor re.
cognised by the Constitution of this country ; and upon no other
ground could the oath be taken after this Bill was passed. We
bad been told that every species of evil would ensue from the en.
aoment of this measure; that the spirit of religious rivalry would
be excited; that contests for power would continually occur; and
intestine divisions be for ever agitating Ireland. But he
would ask those who prognosticated these ills to prove to him
that all the dangers of which they thus spoke did not exist at
this moment, (hear, hear) that the feelings of religious animosity
were not already generated, and that the struggles for a fair parti-
cipation in the benefits of the Constitution were not now as much
ID be apprehended as they could possibly be should this measure
be peeked. We seemed to have forgotten, when legislating for the
Catholic of Ireland, that the Irish were fraught with the strongest
feelings, were beings of sentiment, warm-hearted, and enthusiastic,
and.susceetible of the greatest gratitude. When laws were made
on behalf of the people of this country, it was said we were
legislating ler men who would be grateful, and would cling with
a firmer devotion to the Constitution. Let this principal be ap.
plied to Ireland ; it had not yet been done, and until it was ad-
mitted to its fullest extent, he would contend that this House had
not done justice to that country. He confessed he felt almost as
great regret for this country as for Ireland at the present measure
still remaining to be accomplished, when he tetnembered that the
disgrace which attached to i's non-performance was not confined to
this country, but was made known to ell Europe. Foreigners
looked towards Ireland as a proof of our want of liberality and our
insincerity to the principles of freedom ; and there too, they would
look for a means of annoying us whenever it should be their in-
terest to do so. Whether, therefore, we consulted merely the
safety and peace of Ireland, or whether we sought to clear our-
selves from the stigma which the degraded condition of that
country reflected on us, it became us to emancipate, not the Irish
people only, but by doing so, to emancipate Englishmen from the
shame of having bound down that people for so many years under
the cruel code of penal enactments. But the spirit of the Catholics
had been represented as dangerous, and the writings of their leaders
were referred to in confirmation of that position. He would not
stand up in this Howie to defend the writings of Dr. Doyle. Ile
would admit thee hecertainly could not approveof the writings of tha
Gentleman, under the signature of" J. K. L' " and he regretted that
such en eminent and learned prelate should have allowed himself to
write under the influence of such feelings as those letters exhibit.
He could have wished that for the sake of his own good fame he had
united with his learning and ability and real somewhat of the meek-
ness and charity of a Fenelon. Much, however, as he disapproved
of time temper and spirit of that book, it would be as well to see
whether all the asperity which it betrayed was gratuitous and un-
provoked. We witnessed in this country almost every day some-
thing teeming from the press, the pulpit, and at public meetings,
of the most virulent and personal nature against the Catholics.
Accusations of the basest and falsest kind were continually brought
against them, and they were boldly and unhesitatingly charged
with espousing principles, and promoting a line of conduct, which
they at the same time detested as warmly and as sincerely as weskit!.
We beheld all this, and yet, astonishing as was the fact, Protes-
tants were loud in the expression of their indignation at the writings
of Dr. Doyle. What ! was the language of Doyle more than
private calumny ? Was it more than personal abuse ? NVas it
more than that legislative calumny, he must cell it, which had
expelled them from the rights of freemen, and had declared, that
even six millions of our subjects, because they were Roman
Catholics, were not worthy of being admitted to those rights and
privileges to which all the other subjects of the State were eligible ?
(Hear, hear, hear.) it was a maxim of the British Constists
tion, that the highest offices of the State were open to time
lowest subject belonging to it. lie would ask his Honourable
Friend (Mr. H. Davis) whether he had forgotten this fundamental
maxim? It was this to which we owed the greatness of our
country—it WIS this which excited a generous emulation, that
-ienerrtsted men tint* madden *edema that caused that greet spread
of ineriioriotts talent which pervaded every class, and which had
raised this country to the highest pinnacle of human greatness.
(Cheers.) Such was the influence of this maxim when operating
among a free people; and he would ask whether the converse of all
this was not the case with Ireland? Whether there, instead of
talent being stimulated to action, and industry instilled by the
prospect of attaining an honourable station in society, every groat.
roue and aspiring feeling was not on the contrary chilled, and the
best energies of the mind exposed to the perverting influence of
despair? But :le would advert to the objection which had been
made against the testimony of Mr. O'Connell and Dr. Doyle,- and
would ask if Mr. Mnitie and Mr.— wee worthy of belief
why should not Dr. Doyle sod 31r. O'Connell be also worthy of
belief ? The warmth of their language ought not to be urged
against them, for every man who spoke upon the enhject fait
warmly ; and was it astonishing that if the feelings of the higher
classes were thus operated up in, that those feelings should, in some
degree, overflow and work upon those of the lower classes ? Sup.
posing it were true, that although living amongst the Catholics of
Ireland, and observing their conduct, and listening to their conk
plaints, they should still be totally misinformed as to their wiah
and their dispositions, and that the Honourable Baronet (Sir T.
Lethbridge) living in England should be able to correct them, yet
the testimony of those Gentlemen ought not to be slightly'
rejected, for who were they who represented these facts? They were
some of the highest men among the Catholics of Ireland, and were
the representatives of that body ; they were those to whom their
grievances were made known, and their cause confided. He should
presume to transgress upon the House fort few moments more, to
declare his own individual opinion upon the necessity of this measure.
Certainly ever since he was called upon to vote on this question he
had entertained but one opinion as to its necessity ; but when he
entered upon his duties he was told by his friends that age and ex-
perience would correct his opinions, that they were the effects of
warm feelings and a young and ardent imagir.ation, and that time
would moderate, and in the result completely change them. These

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_ T

warnings were so often repeated, that he began at length to appre-
hend there was some mistake in his first view of things, and it occa-
sioned him to investigate the question with a dqgyer of earnest 'scru-
tiny, and to observe the manners of the people of Ireland in a closer
degree than he otherwise, perhaps, would have been Induced to do.
But he was bound now to say, that so far from experience and ob.
nervation having shaken his opinion, they had confirmed it ; time
might, indeed, have mellowed his feelings, but it had only merited
to impress them the move deeply with a sense of theoital looting,
tanee of this measure to the welfare and happiness of Ireland. He
was now speaking only the opinion of an individual ; but from the
time that his attention had been drawn to the state of the Catholics
„allreland, he could not but consider that the country was placed
in a peculiar situation ; that between the governors and the go-
veined there was a strong barrier (hear, hear) ; that no medium of
I intercourse, no sympathy of feeling, existed between six millions
of subjects and their governors ; that unlike the people of this
country. where a reciprocal feeling existed between all classes__
where the people and their governors harmonised together, and
where• sentiment of,outuatunity linked them together ; where every
man
" Feels in each dread, and lives along the line."
But in Ireland there was a dread charm dividing the people from
the constituted authorities,and fear and terror alternately prevailing.
There WY an unnatural tidiness which was prophetic of what Burke
celled the activity of its inertness t and in addition to all this there
were the seeds of dissatiafaction nurtured and nourished up by the
law itself. He could not help seeing, that although a grew
portion of the penal laws hue been abolished, yet there remained
sufficient not merely to insult, but to harass, oppress, and injure ;
for these purposes they were quite omnipotent. ( Hear, hear.) He
could .not but feel that these remaining laws were autfimently
poWterful to tear the people away from their proper influence, and
expose them to that power which in its extent was most pernicious
to the safety of the country. By those laws property, rank, wealth.
and all the genial influences under which a well-governed people
ought to act, were entirely deprived of their proper power, and the
people were subjected to the sole guidance and dictation of their
clergy, which, irexereived in a degree, was most salutary, but ilex.
elusively exercised over them, he would repeat must be moat per-
nicious and would lead them in the end to execute a vague and
m •.ii species • of justice upon the laws by which they were oppres-
sed. (Hear, heard He could not but see that in the his**, of
his country, for some reason or colter, in every ast of the wield.
here had been a maxim adopted and acted upon, that the powiloof
runts
Constitution were not fit for the enjoyment of the rights
essil:lii
Constitution of England. This maxim had been uniform
o from the earliest period, and it had at length brought
a state of things Si showed its utter falsehood, and the • lor.
cessity of its being repudiated for ever. He alluded to the
lion Act, and the Convention Act ; upon these he mode his Midi
in justification of the conduct he now pursued, in maintaining the
necessity of this measure, by which these false principles of legbi.
lotion would be entirely destroyed. In proportion as those prin.
elides were carried into elect, in that proportion were the Catholics
placed in a relatively worse situation. But the country was, at the
time to which he referred, in an invariable state of reetrictiss.
Every thing was under the moat pernicious restraint. Arts, selsoiss,
trade, and commence, were all evempesl and fettered, and the while
concluded by the degradation of t..e Catholic himself. But mire
those restraints were removed, and nothing remained save throw
emancipates' Catholic. What must he feel when: Ch! sae every-
thing melting away around him, the shackle falling off ooe by
one froin all that had borne the marks of arbitrary power is coos.l
mon with himself, and nothing but himself mown Os • lone •
monument of that cruel and mistaken maxim from
shame and degradation had originated ? But did the 1
Ireland deserve this ? Were they not worthy to share the
of the British Constitution ? As far as his knowledge extended
he would say they were worthy. lie had found persons beloogiog
to the Catholic Church who indeed were desirous of pushing their
principles to a great extreme, but there were others of
that large body whom we might not be ashamed to see in
any society, whose virtues and talents entitled them to the
respect of every man. Anti now that he was upon this
subject, he would take the liberty of paying a just tribute of
respect to the memory of one who was adorned with every
virtue, and whosclife exemplified the truest disciple'of the Catholic,
united witt the most liberal and enlightened opinions, he meant
Dr. Everani, the late titular Archbishop of Cashel. That Right
Reverend Prelate, so far from being a model of bigotry and su-
perstition, was of the most tolerant principles. He lived in terms
of the closest intimacy with the Protestant Archbishop of Cashel,
and yet neither of them were indifferent to their religion. *Both
were attached to their Church, with zeal for its welfare; but still
they both found, it consistent with that religion they so warmly
espoused to live together in the closest union, to reside under the
same roof, eat at the same table, and each at the atone time en-
gaged in the full performance of his religious duties. such was
the character of Dr. Everett', and loch, he had no doubt, would
more generally prevail, were the restrictions now existing, and
which separated the members of the different churches, to be done
away by the Bill under discussion. History showed that the
Catholic religion did not prevent those who professed it from
holding allegiance with Protestant Princes. Ile would not trouble I
the House by going back to further instances. than to one which
was very prominent in the page of the history of France: lie meant
the wars of Henry I%'.' to whom was opposed the Duke of
Guise. On the part of Guise there was certainly every species of
cruelty and bigotry exemplified, but as if to show us that it was not
impossible, even in that period of the world, that the Roman
Catholics could produce men of an opposite character, for although
the Duke of Guise belonged to the Catholic religion, yet almost all
France supported Henry IV. who was a Protestant prince; and in
doing so exhibited all those characteristics of chivalry which we
were wont to appropriate exclusively to ourselves. A Catholic
historian, in giving an account of this adherence to Henry,
said, that the people of France did this became they felt that
lie was their rightful sovereign, and ought to ascend the throne.
In further illustration of the good feeling of the Roman Catholics,
and of their desire not to use fire and sword to propagate
their religion, he would quxe a passage from Thuanus, a Catholic
writer of an early age. The Right Honourable Gentleman
then read a long extract from a Latin publication of that
author, in which the spirit of forbearance was strongly insisted
upon. He drew front dime instances this inference—that the
charges of cruelty and bigotry against the Catholics were unfounded
and absurd, and that under good laws, and in good society, the
Roman Catholics had been as good and amiable as any class of
men. He would then exhort the !louse to take care that they sur-
rounded the Catholic portion of the community with good and salu-
tary laws, and those genial influence% which form the characters of
virtuous men anti good subjects. When he thus supported this
cause it was not that he was ignorant of the differences between the
Catholic and the Protestant religion, nor that he would depreciate
those differences, He had heard it said, indeed, that we could not
show a mild forbearance, or be tolerant towards members of
otber religions, witlimit being sceptical in our own. (Hear.)
But he detested such a nlexim ; he would maintain that it was the
very spirit of Christianity to be tolerant, and that the man who
was without any religion was oftener the enemy than the friend of
any class of Christians. He felt certainly very sanguine that this
measure would pass. They might delay it fur's year or two, but
that it must pass, he presumed, was the conviction of every man.
He saw its success in the whole progress of recent events; he saw
it in the spirit of enlightenment that was spreading over the peo-
ple of this country ; he saw it in the light that was breaking in
upon Ireland through a thousa;:d avenues; in the anxiety that was
testified by the English people to see their fellow-countrymen
placed generally upon an equal footing with themselves; lie saw its
float success in every step of liberality that had been recently taken
by the Right Honourable Gentlemen (31r. Huskimon and the
Chancellor of the Exchequer), all which convinced his mind that
the time was not remote when Emancipation must be granted to
the Roman l'atholics of Ireland. Ile would put it, then, to throe
who opposed this measure, to consider whether it would not be
better to make that which was inevitable both delightful and ac-
ceptable, rather than delay it to a time when they would be corn.
pellet to grant it, without even having the thanks of the Catholics
for the benefit which they should have so reluctantly yielded to
them. (Hear, hear hear.)
The SOLICITCHCOENERAL rope immediately after Mr.
Grant had concluded his speech, but the noise in the body of the
House and the gallery for some time prevented us front herring the
lion. and Learned Member. When order was restored, the Learned
Gentleman wax observing that he was compelled, with reluctance,
to say, that instead of the evidence having changed his opinion
upon this measure, it had only tended to confirm it.. If Dr. Doyle
wrote one thing under the title of "J K. L." and gave an extem-
poraneous opinion, in the form of evidence, of another description,
he thought himself bound to adopt the deliberate opinion of
the author, rather than the evidence that had been given, under
circumstances that certainly led the same individual to soften down
the answers he had to make to the questions put to him, as
much as In fairness he could do. He confessed that he read with I
regret the testimony of the person alluded to, who, when asked
whether the Catholics did or did not mean to invade the property of
the Church, he said tbat they did not. Now, lie would beg of the
House to look at the testimony of the author ; and he could not
help here observing, that he could nor believe a witness when his
deliberate opinion as a witness was diametrically opposed to his
evidence. The author said, in all times and in all countries tithes
and church lands might pans away and become secularized, and a
proscription of 40 years would detach them ; and he went on to Ray
that a period of 100 years would annul even the property of the
Church of Rome; so that, according to this doctrine of the author,
whatever loss of property the Church might sustain, it could not
recover after 40 years' alienation. It might remonstrate, but it must
still sit down with the loss; for this gentleman's writings went to
show that 40 years was a good title against any parson whatever.
The House would perceive, that by following up :he evidence of
Dr. Doyle they would legalize the spoliation of Church property,
for his evidence would tend to lull them into security, and his wnt.
logs proved that he was of opinion that 10 years would deprive the
Church of all right and title. These were toe means by which the
Church would be bereft of its property, and, after 40 years had
passel away, it might remonstrate in vain; and he entreated the
House to consider that Dr. Doyle's tenets went to show tlito an
alienation of Church property, after 40 years, was no robbery. The
Bill before the House was only one of the component parts of the
measure proposed to he adopted. To disfranchise the freeholders
of Ireland was the most unconstitutional measure that he could,
under any circumstauces, imagine. The object of the measure was
to conciliate the people of Ireland, by which ?Jr. O'Connell was to
be allowed to sit in Parliament, by which the Duke of Norfolk was
to be allowed to sit in Parliament, by which Lord Fingall was to
tie allowed to sit in Parliament, and Mr. O'Connell was to have a
silk gown. It was a measure for emancipating the patrician and
equestrian orders of Ireland, without rendering any advantage to
the plebeians. lie was confident that the people of Ireland would
not be satisfied with it; for, in effect, it went to deprive the ma's of

the people of Ireland of what they bad. to enable the Mgt n... 1
to obtain that which they .Itd nut previously ps,. -.offs
take the liberty of askinir the Hon. te,,e,nuriale .0.44
sc, candidly and temperately introduced Ibis Bin, d erect"' who
necessary tor the repreoentat ion of Westminster, whether he dowelle adriee, by we, of conciliating the pennle tele, were --
that measure, to have the tailors and nobler and enter"ta''
the men who lived in alleys, disfranchised, and the eleed7,l,l,ntno
allowed only to the opulent shopkeepers of Regentstreer
and places of that description ? would that, he wouldiren'
people of Westminster? He knew the answer mar
lethe
and yet the Samantan oil was proposed us be powtteadhl Mos;
wounded feelings of the people oft Ireland by Pasted into
man of lief people. It was robbing one clan art* eenmmr2ut the
give honours to another. iVhen Mr. O'Connell went one initr
land, he could easily conceive Nome such amyereation as this—
nail:
place between him and some individuals of the Catholic Alasesea-
tion—mot now as members of that Association. He raj
them asking each other what they had got? One would uppsse
he had got a silk gown, another a seat in Parliament—hut rb;
plebeians could only ssy that they had got well robbed then,b- ft
He reorettel that his Honourable and Lamed Friend the Arent
"for IV incflelsea was not then in his place, because he went with hien
completely Speakers chair, question. (Mr. Broghton, ~b 0 -;
*Aind the ame to his place a' the m2IA
booed to the Solicitor-Oeneral amidst burets of laughter fit' —o3
sides of the House.) The Solicitor-Oeneral, in continuatio ,
unwed, that he was not aware that his Honourable end Iriee'
Veined was in the House when he alluded to him, but "in:
TO* lielicitor.Gencrol) was glad to see him in his poen.
itinegweouo tlhderecopeanst:,tu.tain,riiiti)fiitheetpint
lentar ed with his. Honourande and Learned Friend mos- r n
MI eh measure, and he hoped to have his support in h. Dew,- fully
,„,„
In it. He believed it to be a Bill of confiscatton, rand ea
itio-o
esestitutional measure had never been contemplated once the' an'
I.liofl of tip charters by Charles I. A partial measure eet:i;
-feature had indeed taken Plate in recent times, in the er the
gerporation of Nottingham. but that arm fears evidence that reie
:omen), and its jurisdiction was opened to the alagistraterof the maw, at large; but this partienler Act did not apply to the
ddionviolennoewe hinadag
eles test unconstitutional measure that had ever been ato
taken Place,
neit pleasure connected with the one now before the Hosetwa,
dee establiahment one Papal Church, with all the immueities of
fiat Church attaching to it. According to the (lambi,
of
Beedilh Chuvash, the rite of marriage, the rite of baptiser, r 0„,,.•
of sepulture, the rite of attendance at church, the rite of sweriy
estoollation, were citil and temporal rites ; but did Gentlemen re.
&Alen that
_every one of these rites, according to the doctrine of the
Church Of Rome, might be given or withheld? By the dictum of
the Romish Priests, he were spiritual rites. The Bishop of the
lenaigh Church in freGnd were now only so by courtesy; but
die matter this measure was to legalize them as Bishops. A large
ppm, we according to the doctrine of the Church of England tip
seism with the laws of England. was granted to these &drops by
fhb measure, for since the Reformation a churchman could not
held the rites be had mentioned. The Romish priests, foe instance,
might prevent marriages that were legal according to the law of
England.. In addnion to this should be cernaidered the oath to be
taken by the Catholic Bishops, to which some gentlemen did not
attoch much importance ; but he would beg ta remind those gen-
tlemen, that in countries where the Catholic religion was the state
religion, the priests would swear to the reality of the state, which
they would not swear to here. In Spain, for instance, they yenta
swear that the state had the reality of temporal power nide.
pet dent of the Papal. The Learned Gentleman then read the
oath of the priests of Spain in -illustration of his argument.
This did rot look like the uncontrolled communieatino that had
been spoken of in that Hosea. Ile would row beg leave to call
their attention to the presarieres nature, he bad almost said rude
state, of this law for Catholic Emancipation. There was no State
in Europe that did not exert the whole of the Poems that were
here denied to the English Government. This Bill would ogee the
effect on establishing an irresponsible Church, for there was no
security that the Bishops would exercise the power that was con-
fided to nhem constitutionally. With regard to the ieturity that
was said to be provided against this, it was, in his opinion, no
security at all. He would suppose, for an temple, that his Right
Honourable Friend the President of the Board of Trade should
become an ecclesiastic of the Roman Church (a laugh), and that
it should become necessary to hale security for his loaalty, would
the House appoint four Catholic Bishops to examine him ? Sup.
pose, again, that it should be nectssnry to examine into the accounts
of his /tight Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
would they appoint four Lords of tbE Treasury to do it? The
peesent Bill provided no better security, for it was four Catholic
Bishops that were to examine and overlook the behaviour of the
Roman Catholic Clergy. (Hear.) In ehOrt, the security that was
offered was not worthy o a brave, prn's argument, but was to
be treated with ridicule; a brave man would not throw away the
powder and shot of en argument Open it. (Loud laughter.) The
principle of the law on that su"ilect was, that every amused !tarnish
Priest should name his oarn judoes. (Hear.) The former Bills
that hid been brought leeward on this subject were free from suet,
absurdities. That of Mr. Grattan had nothing like it. That
eminent man would not have lent name to such an ab-
surd law. The inspectors that he proposed were not the
Komish priests themselves, but the Chancellors of England and
Ireland, and others worthy of trust. The Bill of his Right Hon.
Friend, the Attorney-General for Ireland, was equally free from
such ridiculous clauses. In his Bill, the Secretary of State for
Ireland was there named the inspector. la both these the princi.
pie of security was good. It was true that he had heard that this
Catholic religion would not admit of such an inspection of reseed to
ant documents by lay hands ; but what was the ease in Freon ?
There, from the time of Henry IV. downward, the resonant hail
always exercised ibis ionmeting power. This power was also ac.
kn.iwledged in Spain, and indeed all over Catholic and Protestant
Evrope. It was a power exercised b the House of Bourban, and
that was by this measure to be the House of Brurfstrice.
At nearly the commencement aide Revolution, is 1791,
the National Assembly insisted Up= Ibilight of inspection, and it
it was accordingly conceded to thaw b, aesecordof with the Pope.
A concordat of a similar nature ins nada by Napoleon with the
Pope. And yet, notwithstanding all these examples, we woe not
to have the same powers and privileges. With respect to the
adjuncts, or wings as they were termed; of this measure, he
amid only gay that he was equally averse to them both. They had
beets told that they must not look to the old legendary tales
of the Romish Church, but to its present carriage. He would
then, since all reference to their history was interdicted, turn
to the present state of their principles. His Honourable
and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham) he had almost said Right
Reverend (a laugh) had brought forward a letter to prove the cue.
dilatory disposition of the Catholics. Ile (the Solicitre-Oneran
now held in his hand a circular letter, addressed in Latin to the
Roman Catholic Clergy in Ireland, in which the Bible Society and
other Institutions of that sect were ridiculed and desired to be
counteracted. With respect to what had been said as being the
general feeling of' the people of England being is favour of the
measure, lie must deny it. They need only look to the number of
petitions that were presented against it, nod then to those in its
favour, and they would perceive that the proportion mu as four to
one against it. His opinion was founded on this fact, and he
should adhere to it, " so help him God." (Laughter.) He thought
he should forfeit his character as a Cons itutional Lawyer if he
consented either to the Disfranchisement or the Ecclesiastical
Relief Bill. Under the influence of these opinions be thought it
his duty to move that the Bill be read that day six months.
Upon the amendment being put,
Mr. HUSKISSON ruse to impale it. After the powerful and
entertaining speech from his Honourable and Learned Fried, he
should nut deem it necessary to give the House much trouble. lie
supported this measure from a conscientious conviction that it 716
founded in justice. From what he had heard argued to-night. at
he had been a stranger to the question, and had beard no deb ve
upon it, he should have concluded, instead of its being a qua a-
tion of Catholic Emancipation, that it was whether the Itemised/
should be established in this country. With rearm to the opined_ 1
tenets of the Roman Catholic,, he, for his part, could not see who 1
business we had to meddle with them. (Hear.) Certainly he felt
any thing but admiration at the pretensions of the Roman Conn.:
hierarchy as affecting the maintenance and security of civil liberty.
The point with him was, whether he did not owe it to justice to
vote forth' remorse of the difficulties which exposed so large a
portion of his Majesty's subjects to disqualifications and disabilities
which were only imposed from as idea of the danger that waeld ac-
crue to the Protestant interest if not so protected. The dangers
which these disqualifications were to guard against, were now
vanished, and it was but a matter of justice to remove these dis-
qualifications. lie however owed his vote to his country upon other
considerations. To withhold it would tend to keep alive dangerous
diounctions; (hear, hear t) it would retard that prosperity which
was the Once of the present pftro t to render that peace morels-
secure, and when war ebould arda, would impair our resouees,
and divide the energies of the empire at a period when seer
ought to be united and eoneentreted against the public ene-
my. (Hear, hear, hear ) It was upon these general prin-
ciples that ie had uniformly supported Catholic Emancipolgith
He would therefore apply himself shortly to a practical review of
the question, and confine that view to Ireland, because whatever
claims the English Roman Catholics might have, sunk into coo:
porative unimportance, when compared with those of tie Dish
He wax free to admit that he considered the existence of Pelage •
body of Roman Catholics in a Protestarn State, as an evil of great_
magnitude; but taking into consideration all the circumstances of
way in which the reformed religion was introduced Into
that country—the rich endowments of the Protestant Church by
lands transferred to them, without a transfer of the affections of the
people, and other circumstances of equal moment—he was con-
vinced of the peculiar difficulty of managing this question with
respect to Ireland. The transfer of the Church property was
irrevocable—it had been declared to be so by the Union—and he
was sure that every nfember of the liaise would say, that the
Church property should be as inviolable as other property, and that
to endeavour to unsettle or disturb any description of pretreat!,
would be an endeavour to unsettle all, and to disturb what formed
the best security for freedom and tranquillity. Now, tbequestioo
lie would put to the House, was the question he bad always asked
.
himself when he was called upon to give his vote upon !Itislt
jeet—What were we to consider were the evils of Ireland Were
they of such a nature as we might hope would weir out, or wore
. a
they every day gaining greater latitude, and foul they not erne
at a height sufficient to alarm every thinking man io the country,
it they were not speedily dealt with? If this question couldell
only answered in one way, lie would ask, was it fit to let
.nel
matter take its course, and goon year aßer year without pratlig
a remedy. It was a good old diction of Parliament, that nothingh
was beyond entrench, at least it was a good old principle of Par
u•
ment that no evil could exist in the state, for which Parliament w
no: bound, and was not able to provide a remedy. 11 thee it wen •