The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1826-04-26 00:00:00

BRAND JURY ASSESSMENTS.

......
Mr. SPRING RICE presented a petition from the County
Tyrone, against Grand Jury Assessments in Ireland.—Ordered to
be printed.
Mr. SPRING RICE presented a similar petition from Mr.
Richard Bell.
GREENWICH HOSPITAL.

Mr. WODLIIOUSh moved for Returns of the Contract Prices
of Proviaione, bread, meat, sour, and coals ; also for the Contract
Price of Labour performed by carpenters, bricklayers and
plumber'', during the years 1774, 1792, 18412, 1810, 1819, and
every succeeding year.
CATHOLIC CLAIMS.

Sir F. HURDETYsiiiti iiieteelinWl;;:itertained of the sound
policy and wisdom of attending to the claims of the Catholics of
Ireland, induced him to present the petition which he held in his
hand from the Catholics of Ireland. upon the subject of the claims
he had adverted to. As he had co intention to bring forward a
premature discussion of the question, he did not think it allowable
to enter into the merits of the case, further titan to state generally
that those claims could never be set at rest until the question of
Catholic right was conceded. The people of Ireland, from their
high character and loyal conduct, were entitled to the fullest con.
sideration, and it was an anomaly strange and unaccountable, that
a people, who had been represented by a Minister of the Crown in
another place, as being as honest, industrious, and intelligent
as any on the face of the globe, should be pronounced by the
same lips as unfit to be admitted within the pale of the
Constitution. The claims of Ireland on the justice of this
country had greatly increased since the Union, and there had oc-
curred nothing to diminish these claims. There could not, in his
opinion, exist the least apprehension in the most timid mind, of
any danger in conceding the claims of the Catholics. There were
other subjects which afrected the interests of Ireland- and to which
the people of that country did not look with indifference. But it
seemed to ha agreed that no other question should be brought for.
ward until the question of the Catholic claims was put out of the
way. Was it not, he would ask, extraordinary and unjust that six
millions of subjects of this country should not be entitled to the
privileges of the constitution, and should be as aliens in their own
country ? The irritation of that country could never be appeased—
no satisfaction could be experienced until those claims were con-
ceded. It was quite clear that the people of Ireland would never
be contented without the full enjoyment of the rights of citizens.
They could not be satisfied; in his opinion they ought not
to be satisfied. Until Oat House attended to the prayer of
their petition, and raised them to an equal participation of
equal rights. they salad continue to bring their claims before
that House; if they relaxed in their efforts, they would be unwor.
thy to enjoy them, and such supineness would argue that they did not
estimate as highly as they should do the valuable privileges which
emanated from the British Constitution. He hoped the period was
not far distant when he should ace them in possession of those pri.
'doges. He could urge many topics in favour of the claims of the
petitioners; but as it was nut intended to bring forward a discus-
sion, he would merely move that the petition be brought up.
Mt. BROUGH Adl addressed a few sentences to the attention
of the House, which, however, were in a very low tone of voice. He
concurred in every observation which had fallen front the lion. Ida.
Tone, whose exertions would assist the cause he advocated. He
was sure the interests of the Catholics could not be in better hands
than in those of the Hon. Baronet.

The petition was then read, and on the motion that it be printed,
•Mr. BANKES said, as the Hcn. Baronet had declined going into
the question at the present time, he (Mr. Bankes) should also ab-
stain ; but the Hon. Baronet had taken this opportunity of telling
the House that his opinions on this great question were unaltered ;
and therefore it became the duty of those whose sentiments were in
oppoi.ition to the Hon. Baronet's, to make a similar declaration.
So far as regarded himself, he must assert that the view he took of
the question was the same us that he hid always taken ; and this
being the case, lie thought he and Members generally owed it not
only to themselves, but to their constituents also, before whom they
were so soon to be called (Order, order), to let their opinions he
known. The people of England, when they came to choose their
Representatives, would then select those whose sentiments on this
subject were in accordance with their own. lie observed one ex-
pression in the petition, to which he wished to call the attention of
the House; it wan, that the petitioners' religion was unaltered. This
he believed; but it was contradictory to statements which had been
made, asserting that there had of late years been much change in
this respect. The lion. Baronet said the claims of the petitioners
were grounde' on principles of sound policy and reasonable justice;
bur he (Mr. Bankes) contended that it wax against reason or policy
for Protestants (who the more sincere they were, the more they must
be opposed to any encroachment on what they believed the only
true church) to commit the guardianship of theme rights to the Rn.
man Catholics. It was his sincere opinion, however, that this
church, if the Catholics were admitted into this and the other
house of Parliament, would not continue two Sessions in the
same state. His opinions were confirmed by the acts and speeches
of the ratholics themselves.

Mr. W. SMITH said he did nos expect lo hear such a confession

from any opposed to Catholic emancipation, as that which had just
fallen from the lion. Gentleman, ri.inely, that the church would
nor stand for two SessiJns after the admission of Irish Members.
(neer.)
'f he petition • as then ordered to he printed.
Mr. BROUGHAM soil he had to present to the House a pe-
tition from the mime quarter, praying a repeal of the Act passed
denote the last session, which made it illegal for the Catholic As-
encia:ion to hold its usual meetings. The petitioners stated that
they viewed this Act as a new obstacle in the way of emancipation.
In presenting this petition, it was unnecessary for hint to say, he
aimed with the sentiments it colonised. Ile had given his oppo.
sition to the Act ; and for the repeal of it he should be found a
staunch advocate.
The petition was then read, and ord-red to be printed.
ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.
Mr. HIJME said he had to present a petition to the House from
a gentleman named Augustus Harding Beaumont. who is a native
of Jamaica, but who is now resident in London. Though this was
the pendent of an individual, it was of some importance. It prayed
for a pledge of compensation to precede measures for ultimately
abolishing slavery. The petitioner stated that he is entitled to the
reversion of a coueiderable number of slaves in Jamaica, and at pre.
Pent is in possession of property in that island ; but lie feared that
the latter, as well as the property in reversion, would be Inst by the
measures contemplated being carried into effect. In his (Mr.
Ilume's) opinion, every man's property was only so by the law of
the land ; and every Peer was as much protected by the law, and
no more, than the individual who was in the Wen Indies. The
petitioner slated, that in IVA the inhabitants of Jamaica petitioned
the Legislative Assembly to restrict the alive trade; but the Go.
vernor refused to listen to the proposition., because he said he
would not put an end to a trade which was so beneficial to England.
This traffic was established in the reign of Queen Elizabeth, who
formerly had a share in it. Iles successor' encouraged it by every
possible means; and Dint William the Third (by Lord homers,
his Minister) declared that rite Sieve Trade was " highly beneficial
to the nation." Numetutie Acts of Parliament, front the reign of
King William till within a few years of the Slave Trade Abolition
Laws, are to be found in the Statute Book of the British Parliament,
encouraging and tintering this tragic; and when, in 1760, South
Carolina (then a British Colony) passed a law, prohibitory of
further importations of shoes into that dependency, Great Britain
indignantly rejected the Act, and declared that the Slave Trade
was berehoal and neceseary to the mother country t the Go.
vernoe, who sanctioned the prohibitory Act, Was reprimanded ;
and a circular was sent to all other Obvcrnors, warning them
against a similar offence, which, however, was repeated in
1764, and Jamaica stood forward as the advocate of the black
men ; for, in Jamaica, a Bill was twice read in the Legis-
lative Assembly, for the purpose of limiting the importation of
slave!, when the measure was frustrated by Great Britain, through
the Govemor of Jamaica, who sent for its Assembly, and told them
that, consistently with his instructions, he could not give hisassent ;
therefore the Bill was dropped, and the Slave Trade continued.—
Again in 1774, the Jamaica Assembly actually passed two Bills to
restrict the Slave Trade ; but Grcut Britain again resisted. Bristol
and Liverprol, which are now clamorous for the abolition of slavery
itself, then found it suited their interest to petition for the con-
tinuation of the importation of our African black brethreu, and
the matter being referred to the Board of Trade, that Board re.
ported for the eoutinuation of the Slave Trade •, thereupon the
Colonies, by the Agent of Jamaica, remonstrated and pleaded
against the report, on ell the grounds of justice and humanity ;
but Great Britain. by the mouth of the Earl of Dartmouth, then
President of the Board of Trade, answered by the following de-
, claration :—" We cannot allow the Colonies to check or dis.
courage, in any degree, a traffic so beneficial to the nation."—
It was therefore evident this sort of property had become a matter
of right under the sanction of England; hut if some limestone were
taken by which it might be secured, the Colonic', instead of being
contumacious, would gladly forward the amelioration, or even
emancipation, of the slaves. He (Mr. Hume) observed that this
feeling existed in a report of the proceedings of the Legislative
Assembly, which he read. He contended the evils could not be
put a stop to, without the concurrence of those who were proprietors
of slaves ; and he hoped that an endeavour would be made to
carry these individuals along with them in the efforts which might
be made. This, however, could not be expected, unless they were
assured there would be no encroachments made on their property.
Now, when the opinion of this country was changed, and the
nation, coniinced of the erroneous views taken of the con.
dition of the blacks, he hoped that they would not remedy one
error by the adoption of another. He claimed from their justice,
that in their sympathy for the blacks they would not lose sight of
the rights of the whites. No one deplored more than himself the
existence of that foul spot which tarnished the humanity of the coun-
try; but in the anxiety to blot it out, as a stigma on the national
character, be did not think it advisable or just to trespass on the
property of Individuals. The petition stated that Jamaica and the
Colonies were not represented ; and the petitioner, therefore. deemed
it due to himself to state to the House the opinions which he enter-
tained on the subject, and which he could not otherwise have an
opportunity of expressing with effect. The petitioner also hoped
that the House would not fell to profess, or promise, to correspond
with the reasons assigned for their consideration, in regard to the
interests of those persons who apprehended such grievous injury to
ensue to their acknowledged property. In that just expectation, he
(Mr. flume) fully concurred, and lie trusted that the House, in
extending their beneficence to the elates, would not force the plan.
tern to suffer the loss accruing from the change. Individuals dr.
commenced in a similar manner with the petitioner, aliauld not be
arbitrarily deprived of their property without any equivalent; for
without such an equitable compensation, great difficulties must
occur in perfecting the MeOures intended for the advantage of the
slaves. The petitioner stated, that unless the proprietors of pro-
peety which would he affected by the contemplated alteration in the
slave system, got some assurance to that effect, they must foil in
danger, not only of a deprivation of their property, but also of their
lives. That uncertainty was the cause of the opposition which
manifested itself in England to it, for he knew it was the anxious
wish of Government to suppress the evils endured by the operation
of the slave system. Ile (Mr. Hume) had been more panicular in
detailing the nature of the petition, as it was his intention, at an
earlier period of the session, to have introduced a propositioa to the
liouse, the object of which wits to provide compensation for the
parties whose interests were likely to be injured by the proposed
amelioration in the condition of the slaves. From that intention,
however, he had been dissuaded, in consequence of the subject
having been taken up by his Majesty's Ministers.

On the petition beingg brought p;
Mr. Secretary.CANNlNG observed, that he did not mean to
oppose the petition ; still less did lie purpose to follow the Honour-
able Member (Mr. Hume) through all the details which he had
submitted to the House. That course should not be the one for his
adoption even if all the topics adverted to by the Honourable Mem:
ber were correct. Ile had considered the subject attentively, but he
did not think that the present time was proper for an expression of
opinions on the matter, as discussion would only tend to exasperate
passions which it would be much more desirable to allay. That
objection would not apply to the time which the Honourable and
Learned Member for Winchelsea (Mr. Brougham) had appointed
for his motion on the question. For the 11th of May he should
therefore reserve himself. It would be unnecessary until that pe-
riod arrived, to state what measures hi. 113'p:sty's Government had
taken into consideration. Then the whole of the question could be
viewed together, and that he conceived a much better mode of treat-
ing it than to traceed to incidental discussions on detached parts,
as would be the case if the House should enter into its bearings
on the presentation of petitions. Such a course could only excite
unnecessary and unpleasant debates on particular points, without
any good result. At the time to which he had already idverted,
there would be an ample opportunity of discussing the question,
and considering it in reference to all the interests which it involved.

The petition was then read, and ordered to lie on thitabie:
Ile3IE presented a petition front Henry Heeling, of Cul.
cutta, regarding the extension of the Insolvent Debtors' Act to
COURTS OF JUSTICE—WEST INDIES.
_ . . .

—.—
Lout NUGENT addressed-the House on the subject of the better
Administration of Justice in the West Indies, on which subject he
had given notice of a motion. It had been his intention to intro-
duce a hill to that effect, as he wished that persons who distributed
justice in the Colonies should be independent of salaries paid by the
Colonial Assemblies. He thought it would be a great improve-
ment in the system if they were paid from this country. In con.
fortuity with that opinion, he bad provided is she intended bill
that they should be interdicted from receiving any tees or emolu-
ments in the annual votes of the Colonial Assemblies, as the mem.
hers who composed such assemblies were persona whose interests
must frequently come in contact with the rights of slaves and with
the concerns of the free men, whereby the Officers presiding over
the Courts of Justice were liable to be influenced to the detriment
ol.the latter description of people. Another object which his bill
contemplated was the abo.ition of the higher Officers of Justice in
the smaller islands, so that only three Chief Justices should be
appointed for the entire of the Colonies. These personages were to
be stationed at Jamaica, Barbadoes, and Antigua, but it was pro.
posed that they should go circuit for the benefit of the other
Islands. The Bill provided that the salaries to those Chief Jus-
tices should be such, as that they should not be rende:ed sub.
sentient to any assembly. No suspicion could then attach to the
administrstion of justice, and every one might expect iinpartiality ;
for men of talents and of rank would be induced to accept the situ-
ations. Persons of that kind were wanted there, to give that ample
confidence which was requisite in the administration of justice, a
dependence on his integrity to execute the laws without bias, and a
reliance on Ilia knowledge, to prevent him from mistaking his duty.
Thus, a class of persons would be obtained, who would be capable
of knowing the difference of the laws which prevailed in the Co-
lonies, of which, at the present period, some were imperfectly
known, while others were unintelligible--some were printed and
others written: The Bill also provided to cut off the Judges from
tuch property as would na.urally identify their interests with these
of the residents of the Colonies. They were to be debarred from
the possession of slaves or lands in the places where they inhabited.
On this point he could plead high authority ; for, at the beginning
of every war, it was deemed right, that those who presided in the
Prize Courts should not be interested in the captures. Such wu
the opinion of Lord Stowed, that Learned aril eminent Judge, who
said, that Judges in those Courts were disqualified from giving
judgment In cases of letters of marque, who possessed any property
therein. If. then, it was right to snake these provisions in matters
of property, where public opinion was against injustice, It was more
particularly necessary that the check should operate in places where
life was concerr4d. and where the public opinion, instead of being e
check, had a tendency favourable to an opposite practice. Another
matter which he intended to introduce was, the right of appeal from
subordinate jurisdictions. He was glad to see that reformation
was spreading, as there was nothing he had more at heart. The
subject was one of great importance, not only to the slaves, but
also to the planters, who would not find themselves benefited by the

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templated. Ile understood, when Government was in full I
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ject wouW be taken up and pr by Government. He • he a •
desirous that the Government undertake the matter. as'
was anxious to leave it in their hands. If. therefore, he del
misunderslond the statement of the Colonial Secretary h
e isou,d
Withdraw the motion rif which he had given notice.
Mr. WILMOT HORTON said, that two Reports had i,,ca
laid on the table. and when the third should be reeeived,
the intention of Government to effect the objects which the No:
Lord's motion intended to accomplish. Measures for ti
tat puepo,,,
were contemplated.
The motion was therefore withdrawn.
DEFENCE BY COUNSEL IN FELONIES.
Mr. G. LAMB adverted to the debate which had taken place og
I former occasion, on the subject of his motion for that night Hi
did not think that the argunients used at that time were sufficientl
strong, OT the number who voted so great, as to prevent the rer
newel of the diacut.ion. He might be asked why he allowed ges:
Ginn to pass after Sesaion, without In-int.:trig the merits nf the gum
tion forward ? To that he would only answer, that he knew the
awkwardness of telling a twice.tuld tale. and he did not like to is.
troduce, immediately after its rejection, a matter of to technics(
nature. lie had in the interval considered the bearing' of the gums.
tion more maturely, and ei•cry thing that had since occurred to hi
reflection, only tended to confirm the opinion which he had fors.
General on the occasion when the Bill was originally intmdeced, it
d.
was to be expected teat the Honourable and Learned Gentlemen
wwoarutil'at preventult re
cmobilyt
r.hd,eocci
of misdemeanor. The A ttorney.General had not done so, and he
sent(tr3odi r
c(olwl measure.
ttatwhat
b)
was r aursto the
ihte eaf Bill
no oe foreeir encouraged
thatut
in
thth te
cothnexiiptiri iivi ineficoof p
memopnlsoyaingrraiCgedunscel,rwraelsofnoir:. by
a
Charts itself had been made to include it in its provioions. It was
Ccouronwsenl
wion, pthrievaltiein,
atheecuspetral.ctbiuctenottow haellroewthe the
the
Crown had undertaken the office of public prosecutor of private
criminals, the practice wh ch hate operated in its public capacity,
transferred itself to the new occupation, and was in fact an tenors.
tion on the old rule. lie could adduce Blackstme and Whitelnek in
support of his position, and he was supported by the Honourable
Member for Knatesborough (Sir J. Mackintosh), a hose absence he
regretted at the lament moment. He had quoted the proceedings
of Judge Jefferies. There were also the canments of Sir John
Hall on Holinolied, concerning the ease of Lord John Russell.
Slr Michael Foster had been quoted on the former discusaion,
and his treatise on criminal I tee had been referred to trium.
phan•ly. as being in opposition to his (Mr. G. Lamb's) state-
ment ; but Sir Michael Foster's explanation of the difficulty only
amounted to the assertion, that the object of the Judge was to
'expound what was doubtful. Sir Michael's statement was oracu-
larly indefinite; and vet he was called the Magna Charm of the
law on that occasion. But formerly the dispute arose not merely
in reference to counsel pleading in defence, but also as to their
right of crone-examination of witnesses. In the fourteenth year of
the reign of George the Second, when Sir Michael Foster was Re.
corder of Bristol, a case was brought before him, In which a
man W the name of Goodyer was under trial. and wished
to cross.esatitine the witness by counsel. Sir Michael Foster
however, refused, although the application was grounded on the
deafness of the accused, and the practice was admitted et the
Old Batley and at the Guildhall. He could not therefore be ad.
duced as any very convincing authority in the cane under discus.
sion. lie (31r. G. Lamb) was glad to perceive that the wisdom of
our ancestors was gradually losing that cabalistic property which
their words at one period were supposed to pones*. People bad
taken on this subject the opinion of Lard Bacon, who recommend.
ed to the young barrister to use it as ••• a light to open the eyes, but
not as a guide to lead by the nose." Ile was not to be dissuaded
from pursuing the object of his Bill by the general assertions relied
on, when the tnattetlwas agitated before, that the law was the per.
fection of femme. It was kicky for him that a Bill was on the tah:e
to disprove that argument. That Bill, which conferred on the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) who proposed it infinite credit,
was a convincing proof that there were some accidental incorrect.
nests in the law which required amendment. Ile was glad Mkt
the Crown. Lawyers approved of the provisions of that Bill, as it
would form a very fitting prelude to the one which he intended to
submit to the consideration of the House. It had been very fairly
observed ass strange inconsistency, that a person should be allowed,
in matters affecting property, a privilege which was denied to them
when life was in danger. Another way of meetirg the position for
which he contended, consisted in the assertion that the Judge was
Counsel for the prisoner; but the Judge was more properly said to br
the Counsel for public justice. He knew that there wit a very
general wish on this subject, that the accused should have the bene-
fit of Counsel foe his defence. A gentleman of the Grand Jury of
Exeter had written to Baron Ostrow, a clever letter, in which he
justly observed, that though the Judge were to be considered as the
prisoner's Counsel, yet he had not sufficient preparation to make
himself master of tile points necessary for the defence. When the
question was discussed on the former occasion, it was objected to
making the Judge the prisoner's Counsel, that if he made a de-
fence fur him, he was bound, in his public character, to make a reply
to what he had before stated in favour of the accused, and thus
countenance an awkward anomaly, being in the one view in favour
of, and in the other against, the accused. As to the effect produced
in the conduct of Judges, he would ask whether, since the ahem.
tion made in the Treason Act, Judges were not considerably W.
proved ? He was aware that the independence of the Judges was a
matter of great importance; but still he would deduce the improve.
meat front the change in the Treason Act. He would ask, would
it be inferred that the Judge was to act against himself for the
prisoner ? In the case of Air. Cowper, who was afterwards a
Judge, and when arraigned pleaded for himeolf, what was the
effect ? Why the Judge who tried him was offended at his clew:.
ness, and endeavoured to refute what he had advanced in his vindi.
cation. Thus it was bad for a person tb be either ignorant or in-
telligent. In a burglar case which he saw reported in :he news-
papers, the accused asked if it occurred in the dark, and the Judge
in charging the Jury said it was bad to see a person of the pn-
soner's description so conversant with the law. A laugh.) Such
an observation was only fit to bring into their rectllec:ion the saying
of Jack Cauy, " I will hang the fellow, if it were only for pleading
so cleverly for his life." (A laugh) He would only ask whether
imputations of' this kind could be brought against the Judges of late
times, since the amendments he had adverted to were introduced
Amongst the advantages of the proposed measure, it would Ws-
courage the production of perjured eibir, which was s good that
should not be meanly estimated. He did not find fault with the
manner in which justice was administered under the present law,
but it was very generally admitted that the verdict of a Jury at the
prevent day did not carry satisfaction to the breasts of the country.
It often happened that a doubt arose in the Secretary of State's
Office ; and under such circumstances the case was not carried to
the extremity of execution. He would not allude to cases where
the criminals suffered the penalty of the law, and the public were
not satisfied of their guilt ; but he might allude to the persons
charged with Lord Cowprea robbery, who had been convicted, and
were reprieved at the foot of the gallows. There was no imputation
of perjury in that case, which showed the state of the law, even
when the proceedings were not tainted by that foul ingredient.
Some time since he saw in the papers the case of Catherine Ferns,
who was convicted of burglary, and afterwards proved innocent and
pardoned. It was dilhcolt to collect the opinions of esistirg
Judges. on the proposition he was about to submit to the House,
but he had some reason to think they were not opposed to the
alteration he proposed. Speaking more guardedly, he was sure
Judges must feel deeply when a case for the prosecution closed,
and they had to acquaint the prisoner that a Counsel could cot
be allowed to address the Jury in his behalf. It was true that
Juuges sometimes endeavoured to atop the Counsel for the prose-
ictuwtioonulidn
bhis b
eetttaetremt f statement. Te
his
no
is h
criminal cases ; but he (Mr. Lamb) admitted that there were
many cases resting on circumstantial evidence, in which the Jury
a had led
Counsel s some
iefopre7e n p to believetio tha
n of t•
would consider the ere wildly, if the material facte were nor
pointed out to them by the Counsel for the prisoner. But what he
contended for was, that where there was a Counsel to speak for the
roetscu
prosecution, there should also be a Counsel to speak for the pri-
soner. With great deference for Judges, he thought it was leaving
too much in their power to let them have to state all the facts for
the prisoner to the Jury. There should be Counsel in all cases to
speak for both parties. Why, he asked, was there Counsel allowed
to prisoners in cases of misdemeanor, whilst it was denied to then)
in felony, which subjected the convict to the highest penalncs?
What was the reason that on the trial of a Peer for felony, before
the High Court of Parliament, when the accused was not allowed
Counsel to speak in hie behalf, the Counsel for the prosecution might
.
reply if evidence load been adduced in the prisoner's behalf ? This had
actually happened in the cave of Lord Ferrars. It did not happen
in the later ease of Lard Byron, because no evidence was produced
iu that case for the accused : but in the last case of the Duchess cf.
Kingston, Solicitor-General Wedderburne claimed the right et
reply, and this claim was admitted. Hale said that the King may
aid) a prosecution for treason and try the felony. lie.
quoted this authority, though lie comm. • tered that "the wisdom of
our ancestors" was not so much in vague now in that House as it
used to be. Whilst we abolished absurd laws, however, ive should
preserve the spirit of those which were equitable and just. Afe
years ago the House had abolished the trial by battle, noci".V
had resulted from the repeal of this absurd law, but he beliv
d tit
had been productive of great service. By the existing law, wn?f,,
liberty and life were in as much peril as in the lists, we dem!'
the helpless and the imbecile the advantage of an advocate.tn
of his proposition would increase or diminish the number of M
whom they might find safety. lie knew not whether the adoption
•ictions, but he was sure those which took place would be more
satisfactory, and more dependent on truth. The Hon. Gent. con-
cluded by moving for leave to bring in the Bill.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that after the full in-
quiry which the measure underwent on a former occasion, whcrihe
similar motion was made the lion. Gentleman, he hoped
would he excused it "he confined himself to the leading objections
.
which presented themselves to his mind. In a question like this,
't
if he differed in the view taken by the Hon. Gent. (Mr. Lamb),
connected with criminal justice, there could be but one object; and
was because, after the best consideration, he believed that the
pro-
posed alteration would not be productive of advantage, but
of
inconvenience. He had never considered the question upon the
basis of authority, but as a practical question, and itira exPerience.
and inquiries, from every source to which he bad access, Wong",

himra conclusion diametrically opposite to that
.of the lion.
It hen speaking of authority, it was well to refer to
ditGen.ffi opitineTa'of gentlemen of his own pmfession, the bar, and as far
a the sense of that body. he would say that the
bar Roan
es be odd, 4
with 14h
him.As f .r as he could form an opinion of the
li f the !knell, the. a was unfavourable to the views of
fr. 1110:. Gentleman. Whilst lie observed this, he unhesitatingly
declared that the House was not bound by any authority; but view.
ogia as a pract n ,
n
teal ueson, lie did not think the proposed altera-
tion would be productive of good. The lion. Gentleman seemed
to think that he (the A torney.General) should advocate the pro.
et measure, became he refused to assent to • Bill foe depriving
remer..Teg on trial for mirderteinore from having the assistance of
' I ilis (the .Itturney-General's) obeervation in that caseI
'u,nt.selts; where a rooms' was of doubtful polity, the if 011tlt ought
7:''„raceed with caution; and the argument applied to the present
fast,
for if the proposal was bad, it would be found utterly int-
ble for Parliament to retrace its steps. There was no such
Pre7*ee' as abridging, in critliimil eases, a practice which had ami been
hr ite n •to • ilist in viewing the lion. Gentleman's proposl.
e • um •
on, it was impossible not to consider the manner in which justice
we nee administered. Those he had the honour of addressing had
-"lbsen present is Courts of Justice, and observed the manner in
...r,ch it was administered. With confidence, therefore, he ep-
ee,i ed to lion. (gentlemen whether justice was not adminietered
interminal cases. with • temper, enelness, and collate-tine's, which
hit noientg to wish for. True, the Counsel for the Crown made
a Sl3te,l' • fir the prisoner, but if he orentepped the bonnds
t•flt
pt
.1 the Judge interfered and brought the Counsel to his
•
right canoe. In mnre than one instance he (the Attorney-General)
had eb•rval that when the zeal of an advocate urged him to
.beyond !he simple (nets, the Judge interfered, reprehended
:he Comet, and confined him to lai proper course. (Hear.) Ile
g J not mean to say that on no occasion did Counsel fur the Crown
ioerstep the line, bat it rarely occurred, and scarcely ever in
nit experience.PrTie statement of the Crown Counsel had no effect,
'there( are, but to prepare the jury for the evidence. After the dry
intement was made, the evidence for the prosecution was heard
aully and without any er.eiteinent. Then the prioner submittal
his evidence, and then the Judge. who was neither Counsel for the
romp-anon nor for the prisoner, calmly and dispassionately 'v-
iewed the whole me, and mihmitted it to the Jury to decide mom
Orson(' og Innocence of the prisoner._ He called upon the regalia-
tan of Hob. Gentlemen whether any course better than this could
be devised for the impartial administration of justice. What was
now proposer( to be substituted for this jowly-admired system ? lie
thoualit tioe which would only have the effect of exciting a contest
between ethane Counsel, and rousing all that warmth and excite.
Tent which was sure to appear between Counsel when opposed to
etch °thee. He had often heard it regretted that iu the Court of
King's Bench, which mak Cognizance of criminal cases of a certain
schatecter, the Name zeal and the same desire for victory was mani-
festo' by Counsel as where only civil rights were at Issue. lie
could ILK toe thet any real advantages would result from the pro.
posed change. Certainly no advantages which would warrant the
Hoare in hoarding that system which was now found to work so
well. upo:t the Imaginary and speculative opinion that there might
be bencr. In hb: opinion, by ass .sting to the proposed alteration
the House would hazard an excellent system, perhaps for one much
worse; and if the present system was departed from, one could never
Lain recur to it. in viewing this question, he did not resort to Sir
Enter or Justice Blacknione, but consulted his own under.
recline. If he con consineed that hie opinion was essentially
errorecios, he would forego 'hit opinions and support the motion ;
upon principle. however, he thought it objectionsble. It would be
admitted that it was essential there should be no obstruction to the
admission of evidence on the one side or the other. (Jn this prin.
ciple he rated his argument. fie contended that there would be
an oestmetion to the admission of evidence, if Counsel for the pri.
inner was allowed to mitten.% the Jury. Of course the ion. Gent.
meant to propose that the Counsel for the prisoner, in cases of fe-
lony. should be subject to the same rules and limitations as Counsel
fur the prisoner in other cases. This the lion. Gent. must mean,
if he did not intend to introduce a glaring anomaly. The consequence
of an address from the t'ouneel for the person seemed, was a
reply for the prosecution, in all cases where witnesses were called
for the defence. It often happened that the witneenes called for
the prisoner were most material to his defence, and the Counsel
for the prisoner hail then a moat anxious duty ; for by calling wit.
name he was aware that Counsel for the pro/notion would have
the power to reply—or, in other words, that they would have an op.
prertunity of making the last Impression on the minds of the Jury,
se well as the fint. Ile had often beard his [lon. Friend the 'Mem-
ber or Peterborough (air. Scarlett) complain that the Counsel had
no equality when conducting a case for the prosecution and for the
prisoner, the reply was so great an advantage to the prosecution : it
gave Counsel for the prosecution an opportunity of cmnmenting •
upon those little discrepancies which arose in the evidence, and
which Counsel for the prisoner had no opportunity of explaining.
The able reply of the Counsel for the prosecution was certainly
calculated to excite the feelings of the Jury against the person ac.
cased. By adopting the proposed alteration the Crown would
hate the power of replying in all cues; and this he (the Attorney.
General) contended would hare the effect of obstructing the
admission of evidence. It was infinitely better that the whole
case should be left, as it was at present, to the comments
of the Judge. who was bound to decide impartially between
both parties. He had before observed that the Judge was not
Counsel for the prisoner, but it was of infinite importance that the
Judge should not be considered as opposed to the prisoner. Sup.
you a Ceunsel for the prisoner thought proper to sacrifice the evi-
dence for his client, in order to give himself a greater latitude in
addressing the Jury, what would be the consequence ? The Judge
presiding must then feel it his duty to correct the observations of
the Counsel for the prisoner. and set the Jury on their guard
against the line of defence taken. Judges were but men, and ih
pet-arming this duty, they might overstep the proper bounds.
When exposing the (Wades of others, we were apt to go too far ;
and in such • case the impression would be, that the Judge pressed
hard on the prisoner, slid that the conviction was owing to his ob.
servations. This consideration was one of considerable weight
and after disposing of it, he came back to the question, was there
any thing materially detective in the present system ? It might be
true that at present there were occasionally improper convictions.
No human system was perfect, but might there not be as many, or
more, improper convictions if the proposition of the Hon. Gentle-
man was adopted ? Why should it not be supposed that innocent
persons might be found guilty when the Counsel for the prosecution
had the opportunity of a powerful reply. The lion. Gentleman's
argument, that innocent persons were occasionally convicted
under the present system, was not entitled to much weight, unless
be could prove that such an evil could not occur if his proposition
waa agreed to. In his opinion, the administration of cats&
tail justice in this country was not perfect, but it was
more perfect than In any other country. No other cotter.
try was equal to this in the manner in which criminal justice
was administered. This was the opinion of all foreigners
acquainted with our criminal Courts. and he was therefore
unwilling to sanction an alteration which all allowed would be
productive of important consequences. He would not consent to
hazard what experience proved to be good, for a fancied good which
might never result. As • lawyer he might be full of prejudices. lie
knew that many things had been defended by able anti good men
from prejudice. Formerly there was no Counsel at all allowed in
cases of felony. Then felons were allowed Counsel to argue points
of law which might arise on the trials but this was granted with
Imitation+. and at length we came to the present position. He ad.
mined dust these alterations had been advantageous. Formerly too,the
Ili:meets for the defence were not examined upon oath, and in esti-
mating thelrevidenceagsinet that of the WWII:I9Ore, the prosecution,
the absence of this obligation was always pointed out by the Judge.
Theo were amongst the obsolete absurdities of former days, and
recollecang them, he examined the present question, knowing that
he was liable to prejudice. His dehlienue opinion, however, wee,
that the proposed change would be productive of much inconve-
nience. He knew others, whose opinions he respected, differed
from him, but if the House was satisfied that the present system
leaked well, and that the proposed alteration would produce im-
portant tionscuumees, lion. Gentlemen ought to pause before they
Riveted to the motion. He was opposed tort on principle. He felt
it would be impossible to repeal the law if it were once passed, and
mono these circumstances he opposed the Bill at this early stage.
31r. J. W ILLIA3IS complimented the Hon. Gentleman (the
Atternry.(leneral)upoo the temper in which 6* had discussed the
Prepositions. But whilst the lion. Gentleman confessed that many
obsolete absurdities bad prevailed, which were now repealed with.
qui u. W consequences; whilst he also recollected that his la-
mented Friend, the love Sir Samuel Itnmiliy, had in vain pressed
sonic improvement, session after session, the utility of which was
now universally acknowledged ; and whilst he bore them things in
mind, he must he excused if lie thought it just possible that there
might still be a great and palpable defect in the administration of
criminal justice. A defect might now exist, which at no distant
time might become exploded like•those just eeferred to by the
Ilona cable and Learned Gentleman (the Attorney• General),
Hia Honourable Friend (the Honourable Mr. Lamb) made his
Proposal upon the ground that the present system was good, but
that it might be improved. He wished to render the system more
perfect, and to abolish a palpable error. The Honourable Mein.
ber for Peterborough (Mr. Smitten) had been alluded to. That
Honourable Gentleman was engaged o shoo time ago, at Man.
cheater, in the prosecution of a man named Evans, fur murder.
He was interrupted by the Judge, but it was not gond nor tare to
interrupt his Honourable Friend the Member for Peterborough.
to laugh.) In short he persevered,:and was opposed, with all -his
dexterity and eloquence, to a man unaccustomed to speaking, and
whose life was at stake. This unfortunate man had to reply to the
able and eloquent advocate. Did this seem fair and satietictory to the
bystanders? On one side there was preparation and talent,and oil the
tither all the necessity for assistance, whilst assistance was denied.
When he should be tried fur a felony (which God knew bow goon
it might be his case) there were two things he should anxiously
wish not to happen—the first was, that he might not be his own
counsel ; sad the next, that he might not have the Judge who
tried him fur his C0121511e1. This he should be extremely disinclined
to hare; he would much rather prefer his Hon. and Learned Friend
(the )Atoroey-General), provided he were not ex-n IFri° against
him. Indeed, rather than be either his own counsel or have the
advocacy of the Judge, he should infinitely prefer the ordinary and
average choice of counsel who practised at the bar, supposing his
ease to be one where fair and"even.handed junta was only sought
after on both sides, and it was not • question of policy wliethet he
should be sequined or condemned. The Attorney-General had
said that if this privilege should be conceded to the prisoner, there
would be • fertnitisble exercise of digeretinn on the part of the
counsel far the prisoner, and a conflicting kind of feeling between
his private sentiments and the sense of duty entertained by Mtn m
counsel, as to how far he should give material evidence, or sup.
p_ress it, rather than render himself open to reply; but when his
Hon. and Learned Friend said this, he mum allow him (Mr. John
Wiblasna) to say, that it appeared to be speaking rather in too com-
Primitidoly strata of the members of their common profession.

They. was one and only one point of view in which (as it appeared
to him) the Attorney-General had contemplated this question de.
fectively. lie had uniformly too much considered it with the eye
of a lawyer, and had by no means taken in view the feelings of the
people of England, and the satirfaction or disratiefiict too which the
present system gare them. That was a point of view in which his
lion. and Learned Friend had totally omitted to state the case. Ile
had weighed it on one side and on the other, exclusively, as to the
propriety or impropriety of admitting counsel; but in arguing the
question, he had not, from first to last, ever taken into considera-
tion whether satisfaction obtained among the people, not merely
nominally but really. as to whether there was a fair equality ofjus.
tice between the prosecutor, on the one side, and the party accused
nn the other. But this was the main question to be considered, fur
it was not sufficient to ray that suletantiat justice was done to the
accused. There should be, in order to the perfection of the admi-
nistration of public justice, an impression on the minds of the pro.
pie that such was in reality the case. lie (Mr. J. Williams) there-
fore could not approve of this omission on the part of the Attorney
General ; still less could he coincide with the observation made by
him, that, supposing legislation should be thought necessary, and
the Hill now proposed should pass into a law, then, if its practical
operation should he found inconvenient, the steps taken by Parlia-
ment could not be retraced ; but that the very instant the privilege
should he obtained by criminals, it would be impossible afterwards
to repeal it, whatever disadvantage. might be found to result from
it. For his own part, he ( Mr. J. Williams) could not discover
that any such difficOlty would exist. If the result should be found
disappointing to the hopes of his Hon. and hemmed Friend and to
the country—he said the hopes of the country, because it was ad.
mined that a very consid enable interest WWI felt by the people on
the subject—if the result should, he repeated, pence disappoint.
lug, and inconvenience should arise, then, just fur the very same
reason that the amendments of the present system now took place.
by this measure might they return to what he would then allow
would be a titter, because proved to be the best practice. His
lion. and Learned Friend preferred the present system, as being
more convenient and satisfactory to hint as a lawyer, and had
argued the question in that way only, but had altogether refrained
from alluding to the opinion entertained by the public upon it, and
which was the most pressing and mos; material point of ail. For the
question was not merely whether the party ehoald or should not have
a better alms of escape than the present spoon afforded 111111, but
it was whether there should be an anon/mica as well as an inten.
don. of perfect equality of justice administered by she Judges of
the land, as well to one party as to the other. That this was not
die case at present he for one would most unhesitatingly assert, and
which assertion lie was prepared to maintain by the most ineiis.
potable facts. Nothing was more unsatisfactory to the people of
Eviginad than the unequal amp the accused person was con.
'Mutiny exhibiting—nothing more forlorn than the impotent and
wild attempts to save himself—frothing more desperate than the
plunges he made when he found his life at stake, and that he had
no hope left—no help afforded him. He had often witnessed, with
extreme pain, scenes like these, where the very attempts to save
himself had only served to Injure, and render worse the situation
of the unfortunate &rented. Ile believed the adoption of the mo-
tion of his lion. Friend (Mr. G. Lamb) would remove this incon-
venience and apparent want of fairness, end if it did, one great
reason for adopting the measure was the satisfaction which it would
convey to the public mind. (Hear, hear.)
31r. Secretary PEEL observed, that this was a question entirely
free front all detail. When his attention was first called to it by
the debate which took place in this House abut two years since,
anti introduced by the Hon. Gentleman who had again brought it
forward, the speech of the Hon. Gentleman on that occasion In sup.
poet of his proposition, and the other speeches that were made in
the course of that debate, entered fully min the question. and the
debate appeared to him to be conducted with great ability. It
might be a confession of weakness, but he must make it, that his
judgment oscillated between the speeches that were made on that
occasion. His opinion was at that time very doubtful upon the
[median ; and not being able to come to any positive conclusion
upon it, he gave the benefit of that doubt to the 'present order of
things, Haying subsequently teflected mach upon the subject, and
considered it with the deepest attention he was capable of, he must
say, that although he was not even yet.perhap% fully competent to
decide upon so great and important a question, his judgment tended
to confirm the opinion he on the former occasion entertained.
((►ear.) It was painful to him personally not to be able to associate
himself with his lion. Friend (Ale. G. Lamb) in his endeavour
to do any thing which might appear to him to meliorate and im-
prove the system of our criminal jurisprudence ; but as he enter-
tained an opinion that the course recommended would not have that
effect, he was quite sure he should only lower himself in his lion.
Freend's esteem if he were to baulk his judgment by supporting a
measure contrary to his own conviction. As he was not competent
to enter info the discussion of this question with the talent and ex-
perience of a professional man, he should content himself with
stating what were the arguments which had made the most impres.
Sio7l mu his mina. He must in the first place claim an entire ab-
sence from all prejudice. He stood inde'ed in a situation in which
he might manifestly be supposed to wish some such measure to be
adopted, in order to rid himself of that most painful of all
duties—the remiesion of the sentences of the Courts of Jun.
lice upon criminals who had been capitally convicted. But he
would now address himself more immediately to the pmpo-
sition of the Hon. Gentleman. In the first place, then, he did not
feel any objection to the proposition on account (gin having • ten.
denry to upset a practice which came recommended to mem by
!unities been followed for a long series of years. For, as it had
been observed by an Hon. and learned Friend, In the course of
the debate, several other tootles of practice of equally long standing
with this had been recently removed from the law of England ; he
was therefore not inclined to defend the present practice on the
ground of prescription ; neither wits he inclined to advocate and
uphold it on the principle of authority, for he was so pressed by on
equiponderance.of argument and reading, that, as Lord Bacon said
coryfasentiant si qutrruns, the current of opinion oft the one sit,e
was as strong as on the other, that it would have a tendency to
make his mind remain stationary, and to suspend his judgment alto.
getlier. If the proposition would have the erect of promoting theends
of justice, as it was argued on the other aide; that wan, if it would
tend to the acquittal of innocence and the conviction of the guilty,
then his opposition would immediately cease; for whatever tended
to those results he should consider to be a material improvement
in the administration of criminal justice in this country. There
was another consideration, not very material certainly, but still one
that he was not disposed entirely to overlook ; he meant the ex.
pence which the adoption of this proposition would entail upon the
country, and the additional time that would be required in adminis.
tering justice. Should the proposition be carried into effect, Par.
liament most make an alteration in the mode of transacting the
criminal business of the country. He was quite sure that if the
proposition was right in Itself, no consideration of ixsense ought
to be made an obstacle to its adoption, nor any delay in the
despatch of business that it might occasion. But he could
not refrain from observing, that, if a law should be passed
which entitled every prisoner to be defended by counsel, it would
be absolutely necessary to make arrangements fur lengthening the
period of the Assizes. That, however, was a subordinate consi-
deration, if the proposition was consistent with strict justice ; or
rather, if It was inconsistent with strict justice, to reject it.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who spoke last had addressed
himself to the main question, anti if what he had said were true,
then he would it once relinquish all opposition to the measure.
(Hear, hear.) That Hon. and Learned Gentitman had said that
the administration of justice, as at present conducted, was not so.
tisfactory to the people, He (Mr. Secretary Peel) admitted that it
WAS not only necessary that justice should be equally administered,
but that there should also be a prevuiling opinion throughout the
laud that it was so. Therefore, if the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man would convince him that no such opinion did exist, that the
people were not satisfied, but that there was a prevalent impression
throughout England that thp party accused had not a just means of
defence, he (31r. Secretary Peel) would agree that the system was
defective, and that it ought to be amended. But it was because
his experience led him to an opposite conclusion; it was because
he telt there did prevail a general opinion that justice was fairly
administered, and that the people were satisfied with the mode now
pursued, that he differed in conclusion front time Honourable
and Learned Gentleman. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.")
The instances which had been quoted in support of the motion were
of rather an extraordinary nature. The Honourable and Learned
Gentleman (Mr. J. Williams) had said that when Thurtell and
Berenger made their defence, however a'ssurd and wild were
then observations, yet the Judges listened to them with the utmost
agentioti, and left the question impartially to the Jury. But, said
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, I know a case In
which the Judge did interfere, and in which he prevented the
prisoner from continuing his defence by saying, " Come prisoner,
M us have none of your flourishes." But who, he would ask, was
that man? Why, he was a lawyer (hear), and when the Judge
found that he was going into matter altogether irrelevant, he could
not patiently listen to a person of the law, even in the pri.
goner's situation, but ioterfered with him. But supposing a
lawyer did not stand in the situation of this man, but was in
the situation of counsel, how could he (:Hr. Peel) answer tOr
the conduct of a Judge whose sense of right was so strong that
he could not even hear a prisoner, who was 'supposed to be ac-
quainted with the law, violate its rules 2 How could he (31r.
Peel) answer for it, but that the Judge should not only object to
the counsel's address, but should, when he came to sum up the
evidence to the jury, be unable to divest himself of the feelings
of an advocate, so far as to disabuse the minds of the jury of
any improper remarks of the prisoner's counsel, by which means
the jury might in turn be unduly biassed against the prisoner?
Ile did not know how the Judge could draw a line between the
MAMAS of Counsel ant! what was due to the prisoner. Ohl not
Gentlemen know, in point of fact, what was the administration of
criminal justice in Fiance? Many instances must have been seen
by Hon. Gentlemen, In which they must have found the Judge was
rather betrayed to show his acuteness in addressing the Jury, than
his impartiality and desire for justice. The case of Evans, who was
tried lately at the Lancaster Assizes, for murder, had also been
quitted. There the Honourable and Learned Gentleman (3lr.
Scarlett) thought it better to make a new statement of the
facts to the jury, contrary to the intimation of the Judge.
This appeared to him (Mr. Peel) perfectly consistent with justice.
But notwithstanding the openieg speech against him, that man
was acquitted. Now, could the lion, and Learned Gentleman
(Mr. J. Williams) show that if Evans had had a Counsel fur his
defence, and the Attorney-General for Lancaster (Mr. Scarlett) had
been allowed to make a speech in reply, that that man would not
have been convicted—(hear, hear)—convicted, if you pleased upon
the merits of the case. Ile thought these two cases, that of file.
Spencer Copwer, the lawyer, and Events:by no means afforded an
argument in favour of the motion before the Huose. Agreeing, as
he did, that the allotment" were, in point of theory, with the Hon.
Gentleman, he should give a reluc:nnt refusal to the proposition,
which came rerointnended to them by the plausibility of argument
in infavour, and certainly by the very fair and temperate manner

In which it had been brought forward and supported. (Hear,(
bear.)
Mr. H. TWISS spoke in support of the proposition, and de.
clnred that he could not concur in 'boas general term% of
admiration which had been expressed of the preteen( mode
of administering criminal justice in this country, by which
the peinmer was allowed to have ;_lonnsel to assist him in'
every way except that which was most essential to him—
When eases of eireurrestanlial et/ideate were taken into considera-
tion, the equity of changing the present law was most manifest; the
counsel fur the prosecution were used in thoae caeca to pain; out
circumstances In detail which ware availmble to their argument;
and if such a course were advantageous to the prosecution, it
was hard to say why it was not equally useful to the defence.
It bad been urged that the imaginations of the jurors ought
not to he disturbed; but it appeared to him that very sensitive
imaginations were not often to be found among the traileamen
and barbers who eonetinited common juries. Counsel, through
the love of victory, or (rota the heat and eagerness of conflict,
often became involved in interlocutory disputes, in which a
greater ardour was developed than was aCCOMMOdated to the 'nth of
dispassionate jedgrnent ; but the eater policy would be to give
room at once to D legitimate opposition, rather than to wait for oc-
casional explosions ; and if, as is had been said, speeches fur the
defence were hurtful to the party, why had they been allowed in
trials for treason ? ((fear.) The defence at Counsel was permitted
in treason, which was the highest crime; and it wan permitted in
misdemeanor, which was the lowest; hut the intermediate degree of
guilt or felony was excluded from the same rulvatitage, and no
sufficient reason could be assigned for such distinction. Often it was
a matter of doubt whether a case was one of felony or misdemeanor,
and the doubt, of course, extended to the right of defence.
Cases might occur which might be considered as eases of treason,
of felony, or of misdemeanor, minion at the option of Government.
If, fur instance, a mob were to assemble to procure the repeal of an
obnoxious Statute, and after the Riot Act being read with the re.
quisite formality, some indistiluals were to remain for more than
an hour, they might then be arraigned as traitors for levying
War against his Majesty, as had been done in Lord George Gor-
don's rebellion, or they might be tried merely for the misdemeanor ;
or by introducing the clause that they remained one hour after read.
ing the Riot Act, they might be indicted for the capital offence.
Other instances might be cited of the narrow digtinetiart between
felony and offences which admit defence by counsel ; but it was
said, if a speech in defence were allowed, it would then be neces-
sary to admit a reply. That was. indeed, a necessary course.
quence: it was always done in civil eases, and it' such a course
were disadvantageous to the client In civil cases, why was it
not taken away ? If the rennin of this anomaly in the criminal
law of England were demanded by a stranger, it would be
hard to give him a satisfactory answer. It Inul also been said
that the 'Teethes in defence would occupy too much time of
the Court; but when the country had time to inflict punish-
ment. it was strange that it should not find time to hear the
defence. On threw grounds of broad justice and plain reason, he
thought that equal means ought to be given to those who were
arraigned for their lives, to urge their defence, as was allowed to
the prosecution.
Mr. A. MARTIN said, that he had endeavoured three times to
procure a hearing in the House fur a similar Bill, and could never
succeed. He congratulated the country on the display of elorpience
which the discussion of that night had elicited ; it showed that he
was not unwise in encouraging his Hon. Friend (the Member for
Dungarvon) to take the matter into his own hands ; the result would
be thatbe would give his other Bills into thesame hawk (Laughter.)
The Hon. Member then cited several instances to show that the judges
were not always disposed to be the prisoner's counsel, or to treat hem
with indulgence. In a case tried at Croydon, the prisoner applied to
Lord Kenyon to postpone his trial from II o'clock till 4. The
Judge asked him on what grounds he sought the postponement?
He replied, that he expected a witness who would give him a good
character. Well then, said Lord Kenyon, I will give you credit
s for a good character, and will try your cave. The other cases were
of a similar tendency, and reported without any reprobation.
When he( Mr. M.) brought forward this measure, he could find no
one who would take it up, except his Honourable Friend the Mem.
her for;Nottingham, who had promised to lend his support to it.
He had been charged with petty legislation, but he had been the
author of some of the most important Acts. The Coroners of Ire-
land Bill, which gave so mechsecnrity to property, had been intro.
slimed by him, and another to regulate the service of writs in Ire-
land, the earlier introduction of which would have saved Lord
Dillon 8,00111., which he expended ins suit for lin4l/.
Mr. TYNDALE thought that the change would be pregnant
with mischief. At present the accused hod the benefit of Counsel
in arranging his ease and every part of the trial, and only wanted
his aid in addressing the Jury ; but the speech, if it were permit-
ted, ought to be a plain unadorned speck, otherwise it would be
soon interrupted by the Judge. According to the present system,
the minds of the Juries were intent on the evidence, and unem-
barrassed by any specious declamations. They received a plain
statement from the Judge. That mode of investigating the truth
was as likely to reach the truth as any mode that could be devised.
The alteration proposed was to make the defence in cases of felony
similar to those in cases of misdemeanor and treason. The first
consequence appeared to be, that the Counsel for the prosecution
could no longer feel as an officer of justice, but rather as a party.
Comael were never so chary as was supposed, or SO averse from
art to support their case ; but under the present mode. the Counsel
for the peonteution would mover thielt of withholding a witness ;
but how we could be sure that if he expected professional opposi.
titan he might not resort to art to secure the victory ? The Counsel
too employed In criminal courts were generally younger and leas
eminent men ; and in few cased eruid the accused affimi to employ
the moat experienced men, so that the alteration would give new
arms of defence to the prisoners, but give twofold force to the
prosecution. In. aid of his practical observations he could adduce
the testimony of an ingenious foreigner (Monsieur Cottu) who had
great experience in the French law, anti who was sent over here by
the French Government to examine our administration of criminal
justice. The Hon. and Learned aMember then read an extract
from the Treatise of filonsieur Ciotti, in which he warmly
eulogises the mode of conducting criminal trial., in this coun-
try. With respect to the argument that the civil and criminal trials
be assimilated, it might be answered that civil cases had in
general much complexity ; while criminal cases were confined to
the examination of n simple fact, of which the Jury were competent
judges. Again, If either party were dissatisfied in a civil case, re.
course might be had to a new trial, which would be impossible in
criminal caeca. As to the argument of anomaly, it ought to he
remembered that it was an anomaly arising from experience of its
utility. If the House were to proceed to alter all the anomalies of
the law, there would be no end of the changes. Unanimous
Juries, and appeals to the House of Lords, might be considered as
anomalies. The practice of foreign countries had also been made an
argument ; but he would ask the advocates of the measure, whe-
ther they meant to assimilate our criminal trials with those in
France, anti to give the Counsel for the prosecution an insight into
the prisoner's defence. Ile hoped the House would pause before
it gave its assent to a change which would ultimately alter the tone,
temper, and high character of the administration oe public justice
throughout the kingdom.
Lord ALTHORN supported the motion. Ile could not see how
it could operate to the disadvantage of prisoners, as had been stated
by the Honourable and Learned Gentleman who had just sat down;
but if it should hereafter be found to be disadvantageous, it might
be changed at a future time.

Mr. S-CAHLETT said he felt, in common with his Hon. and
Learned Friend, that the change would be disadvantageous to the
country, without being called for by circumstances. At the same
time, he was disposed to mistrust an opinion founded merely on
his own sentiments, knowing his liability to be biassed by profes-
sional hahits.

Mr. SCA RLETT said that he had formerly some doubts as to
the advantages likely to arise from allowing persons on their
trial the use of Counsel ; but a more full and deliberate consider.
ation of the subject had removed those doubts. Ills opinions
were not founded upon theory, but open experience. His lion.
Friend (Mr. Tyndale) heal said that the present practice was free
from passion '.ut why not apply that doctrine to civil cases, where
truth is as maai the object as in criminal cases ? His Honourable
Friend had contended that truth would be elicited as well by em.
playing one Counsel es by having two; but unless he was prepared
to conclude that the whole of the civil as well as the criminal pro.
ceedings should be conducted by one Counsel, the argument
fell to the ground. The cases In •hich Counsel are most
wanted are circumstantial cases. There were frequent instances of
the escape of guilty persons from the want of Counsel to reply and
explain, and on the o•her hand there were many instances of
persons suffering great difficulties for want of such assistance. The
tendency of the mind was to receive the first facts with a degree of
complacency, and unless the accused party had an opportunity of
preparing his statement in such a way as would explain the cir-
cumstances, it might be fatal to him.
The St tI,'.CITOR.GENERAL would prefer taking away the
privilege of making an opening speech from the Counsel for the
prosecution, to admitting tile party accused to have the liberty of
making a speech. lie would have no objection to such an alteration
as would confine Counsel to the examination of witnesses and to the
discussion of a pointof law. It had been said that dissatisfaction pre-
vailed in the country with respect to the present administration ofjus.
lice. lie did not think that such was the fact; he did not believe there
was any public dissatisfaction on the subject. The public did not
call fur any alteration, neither was It called for by the Report of
the Committee on the state of the Criminal Law ; nor did he see
say such opinions put forth in any publication. Tile great object
was the attainment of truth, and that might be arrived at without
the speeches of Counsel.
Mr. BROUGHAM said that he did not mean to detain the
House at any length, but he wished to state as shortly as possible
the reasons which induced him to vote in support of the motion of
his ilonourable Friend. lie was free to acknowledge that he formerly
bad felt some doubts on the propriety of the measure, but never saw
the difficulties attending it in so formidable a light as some had
done ; and now, having examined those difficulties, he had come to
a conclusion favourable to the introduction of the Bill. With re-
spect to what had fallen from the Right Honourable Gentleman,
the Secretary of State for the Home Department, that the country
were satisfied with the present state of the law as regarded the
question before the House, because among the various statements
received by hint in his official capacity, from the friends of persons
who had been convicted, he had never received one application for
merry on the ground now urged—that of the prisoner not having
bent fit of Counsel—he (Mr. Brougham) would say, that that cir-
cumstance arose from the naiure of the law, for they never could
think of makingthat an argument for mercy in individualeases,which
applied to all. The ground of application for mercy must arise on
the presumption that there was peculiarity in the case, for which
that mercy was solicited. Even Counsel themselves had darkened
the doors of the Home Department, by applying for men to he let
off. on the around that they had nor dode all that they ought to
have done it. their defence. It was Impossible to say that

Ziallaprrogi.

DRURY-LANE THEATRE.

This Evening, WEDNESDAY, April 26, will be performed the Tragedy of
VIRGINIUS.
Virginiu4 Mr. Macready ; Slcciuv Dentatne, Mr. Bennettl Icillus, Mr.
Wallack. Virginia, Mime Foote.
After which the Romantic Opera of
DER FREISCIIUTZ.
. . • . _

Adolph. Mr. T. Cooke; Caspar,ii;.l4;;;;Bernhard, Mr. Bedford;
Kilian, Mr. Fitzwilliam; Zarniel, Mr. O. Smith. Linda, Mina Graddun;
Raw, Puvey.

COVENT-GARDEN THEATRE.

This Evening, WEDNESDAY, April 201, will be performed the Grand
Romantic and Fairy Opera of
OBERON; or, THE ELF-KING'S OATH.
Tho principal Characters by We nn. Brabant, Cooper, Demist, C.
Bland, J. 1431:1C9, and Baker; !Misses Paton, 11. CIRSE j Madame Fee.
trio, Mrs. Vining, and Mrs. Davenport.
To conclude with the Comedy of
WATS AND MEANS.

Sir David Dunder, Mr. W. Farren ; Randow. Mr. Cooper ; Scruple,
Mr. Raker; Tiptoe, Mr. Farley; Paul Peery, Mr. Evans. Lady Douder,
Mrs. Davenport ; Harriet, Mivi J. Scott ; Kitty, Miss Howard.

NEXT WEDNESDAY, SIX PRIZESOI42I,W, &c., BEING
THE LAST LOTTERY BUT ONE THAT WILL EVER EE
DRAWN IN ENGLAND.

The 8R1T1941 Panes commenced pubhahing yesterday morning.
at five o'clock.

LONDON, WEDNESDAY, APRIL iG, 1846.

At a very late hour this morning, we received the Cal-
cutta Extraordinary Ga%ctie of the 31st of December, from
which we have extracted the following details of the opera-
tions of Sir A. CAMPBELL on both banks of the Irrawuddy,
down to the Gth of December.
CatarrA, DECEMBER 30.

The following Copies of Despatches received from Major-Genera►
Sir Archibald Campbell, K.C.B. and K.C.T.S. are herewith pub-
lished for general information.
To George Swinton, Secretary to Government, Secret and
Political Department, &c. &e. &c. Fort William.

Sir—The enemy, in closing in upon our front, has been unre-
mitting in his endeavours to intercept our communication with
Rangoon. Large bodies of troaps for this service have lately
passed our flanks on both sides of the Irrawudtly, and the state of
that river, covered, as It has lately been, with large and valuable
convoys of stores and treasure, has necessarily caused me much
anxiety, and retarded my moving forward.
Shudoun-Mew and the Surranddy districts have been overrun by
these itinerant bands, and I have been under the necessity of de-
taching Lieutenant-Colonel Godwin, with a strong detachment, for
the purpose of driving the enemy from Shoudoun, and if possible,
of surprising any parties he nigh have in that neighbourhood.—
On the night of the 24th, the Lieutenant-Colonel marched to
Shoudoun, but the enemy receiving intelligence of his approach,
tied to the interior, and the detachment returned to quarters, after
clearing the left bank of the river for tiftean miles below Prome.

On the western bank 1 deemed it of importance to retain pos-
session of Padoun-Maw, and for that purpose stationed one hun.
dred men of his hlajesty's Royal Regiment, and one hundred of
the '26th Madras Native Infantry, at that place, under the com-
mand of Captain Deane, of the Royals, and supported on the
river by a division of the flotilla, under Lieutenant pellet, of the
navy. This party was repeatedly attacked by the enemy in great
force.
Two divisions of his Majesty's 87th regiment, with the treasure
boats, have now arrived, and I purpose marching nut to attack the
enemy to-morrow, the consequence of which will, I trust, be felt
by all the dependent corps which have so long annoyed us.
I have, &c.
(SignediE, ARCHIBALD CAMPBELL, Major.Oen.
Head Quarters, tome, 30th Nov. 1825.
On the River. near Prom., Nov. 26, lea

To Lieut—eol. Tidy, C.B. Dep. Adj. Gen.
St*,-T have the honour to state, for the information of Major-
General Sir Archib tit! Ca.npbvil, commanding the Forcas, that on

' the morning of the 25'h instant. while in progress to this station
with three companies of his Majesty's 87th Regiment wider rn..T.
command, I was suddenly nnacked from 4 steep
Covered
with jungle, by the Burmese, near the village of 'fliescomhine,
when aher a smart skirmish, they retreated in great confusion ;
their loss I could not ascrtnin, at they carried off their killed and
woundel. f hare, &c.
(Signed) W. S. 6' utt.r, 1114. Comg.
(True Cony.)
(Signed) P. S. Tiny, G;eur.-Col. DI A. G.
Return of killed, wounded, and missing in a detachment under
the (mint:mil of Major Gully, 11. M. 87:11 Regiment, in action
with the enemy near Theacornhine, on the 24'h Nov. LIU&
)lajesty 117th regiment.—Kilkd-2 rank and file; wounded
—I Captain. Name of the Officer wounded—Captain James
Bowes, slightly.
(Signed) F. S. TIDY, Licut..Col. D. A. 0
Tt Geroge Swinton, Esq. Secretary to Government, Secret and
)Political Department, &e. &c. etc. Fort Witham.
last letters woull apprise the Right Hon. the Orlt
vernor.Oeneral In Council, that the main Burnt-toe army, amount.
ing to between .50 and 60.000 met% had taken post in the immediate
vicinity of Prome, and I have been for the lest ten days noxiously
awaiting an attack upon the strong position we had with much
labour cleared and prepared for giving full effect to the movernene,
andoperations of our columns, and every possible enoouragement hag
been held out to induce the enemy to meet us once on open ground.
Finding him, however, much ton wary to be drawn from his strong
holds in the jungle, and suffering much annoyance and inconve-
nience from his marauding parties and want of forage, I, on the
30th alt, took measures for making a general attack upon every
accessible wart of his line, extending on the East Bank of the Ir-
rawaddy. from a commanding ridge of hills Kim the river, to th,e
village of Simbike and Sembeh, upon the left, distant from Prome
II miles in a north.east direction. The enemy's army was divided
into three corps. The left corns, commanded by Malta Nerniow' an
' old and experienced general, who had been sent down train
Aral to introduce a oew system of conducting the war, sls
ausekaded in the jungles at Simbike and Hyalay, upon the Ns-
wine River, and this corps amounted to fifteen thousand men, line.
mese, Shams, and Cassayerv, of which seven hundred: were cavalry.
The centre, under the immediate 'orders of the Kea-%Vuonghess
arts strongly entrenched yptri the bill, of Napadet, inaccessible,
rept no one side by a narrow path.wsy, commanded by seven piece*
of artillery, and on the river side the MI rigation was commanded by
batteries of heavy ordnance. Tttfe corps eonsistedof thirty thousand,
men, and the space between the left and centreemps, a thick an.,l
extensive forest, was mere') oecupled by a line of poets. The
enemy's right, under the orders of Suddoorroon, occupied the wets
bank of the Irrawaddy, strongly stockaded abd Wended by
artillery. _ . - _

Leaiing foar regiments of Native Infantry in t' works U
Prome, on the morning of the lit inst., marched upon the Sim.
bike, with the rest of the force, to dislodge the carps at Main Nw-
miow, from its petition on the Nawine River—and as previously
concerted, his Exzellcncy Commodore Sir James Brisbane, rtlift the'
flotilla, and the 26th 111 Ares Native Infantry, acting in cn-operad
lion on the bank of the River, shortly after day-light, comoiencte
a heavy cannonade on the enemy's centre, and continued nearly two
hours to attract his chief attentism to that point.
On reaching the Nawine river, at the village of 7,e-ouke, the
force was divided Into, wd columns. the right column under the
command of Brigadier-General Cotton, continuing to advent,
along the left bank of the river, 'Mk with the other column r
crossed at the ford of Ze-ouke and rotranced upon Simbike and
Gombek, in a direction nearly parallel eith the Brigadier-Oenoral'a
divisiotr.

We had to contend with thery disadvantage of a difficult nrld
enclosed country, nor did our ffiformation upon the pasitioa ecru.
pied by the enemy enable me to make any previous fixod
arrangement for intercepting the retreat of an enemy to whom
every foot path in the jungle wait familiar, end whose irregu-
lar flight would, I was aware, be mode by every path that
promised Rarely at the moment. 31y object, hnwever, was. that
whichever column should have the good fortune to fall in with the
enemy first, should attack Idin vigorously in front; while the other
should endeavour to occupy such positions as would snahle it to
cut in upon him, when driven from his defences The route fol-
lowed by Brigadier-G.tneml Cotton brought him In front of the
stockaded position at Sinibike, which he at once assaulted ; and
when his fire find °petted, the column under my own direction was
about a mile and a half distant to his left and rear. I, in corm-
sequence, detatched Brigadier Elringfon to guard the fort
at Ze-oulte,and the main road leading to Ncoun-beoxick, and
the position of the Kee Woonghee; while with the rest of
the column I pushed on towards Sage& in the hope of
falling in with the enemy retiring upon Viattygoon. Brigs-
dier-General Cotton and his gallant division did not allow me
time for completing this movement 7n leas than ten minute*
every stockade was carried. the enemy completely routed, and 1
had only an opportunity of cannonading his panic-struck masses as
they rushed fast through the openings of the jungle in my front.
The attack upon Sinibike was most handsomely led by Ideut,
Cdlottel Godwin, of his Majesty's 41st regiment, with the adverted
guard of the right column, consisting of the light companies of his
Majesty's Royals, 41st and 89th regiments, and the light companies
the 18th and 28th regiments of Madras Native Infantry, and his
Majesty's 41st regiment, under Major Chambers, stormed at another
point, with the banal intrepidity of that gallant corps. The enemy
left three hundred dead upon the ground, ilith the whole of his
comenhisariat and otherstorts, guns, from four to live hundred inns.
kets, and upwards of one hundred Casray hones. The body of the
old Co mender Maha Nemiow, 'l5 years of age, was also found
among the dead.
The enemy's left corps thus disposed of, and finding, from the
testimony of ail the prisoners, that 3leesday had been fixed
upon as the point upon which to reunite In the event of any die.
aster, I at once determined upon marching back to Ze-ouke, for the
purpose of attacking the centre, under the Kee-Woonghee, on the
following morning. At six in the evening the whole force was
again assembled at Ze-onke, where it bivouacked for the right.
after a harassing march of about twenty miles, which the troops
underwent with the greatest cheerfulness and spirit.
At day-light in the morning tit the 9d, we were again in motino.
It was niy intention to have cut in upon the river so as to divide the
Kee-Woonghee's force; but the impassable mitre of the inter-
vening country prevented my reaching Pagaon, the point I had
selected for breaking through his line, and the only road that could
be discovered led to the front of the fortifiLd ridge of Napadee,
already alluded to, which, from Its inaccessibility on three sides,
could only be attacked by a limited number of men in front. Ratty
in the morning I detathed Brigadier-General Cotton's division,
with 'ardent to endeavour to push Tumid to the right, and gain the
enemy's flank by every path that could be diecovered,butafter greet
exertion die effort was abandoned as wholly impracticable. Our or-
tillery being placed in position, opened with great effect. while
his Excellency Commodore Sir James Brisbane moved fro-
ward and cannonaded the heights from the River. I, at the same
time. directed Brigadier Elrington to fall in through the jungle to
the right, where tile Brigadier inform, me the enemy opposed hint
with great gallantry and resolution, defending every tree and breast.
work with determined obstinacy. To the Brigadier's left I directed
Six Companies of his Majesty's filth Regiment, under Major
Gully, to advance and drive in the enemy's posts to the bottom of
the ridge. This service was performed with much spirit, and the
enemy wag driven DOM all his defences in the valley, retreating
to his principal works upon the hills. The appearance of these
works MRS sufficiently formidable, and the hills I have already
mentioned could only be ascended by a narrow roadr commanded
by Artillery, and defended by numeroos stockades and breast-works
filed with men apparently all armed with muskets. As soon am the
illery and rockets, under Capt.. Lumsdaine and Graham. directed
by Lieut-Col.llepliinson. had made an impression upon the enemra
works, and silenced several of his guns. I ordered the troops to ad vanes
to the assault. The Ist Bengt' Brigade commanded by Lieut.-
Colonel Sale, anti consisting of his Majesty's 13th and 38th regi-
ments, under Majors Thornhill and Frith, was directed to advance
by the breach and storm the heights in front, and the six companies
of his Majesty's 87th regiment. advanced through the jungle to the
right, and drove every thing before them on that side; nothing
could surpass the steadiness and courage displayed in this attack.
Scarcely a shot was fired in return to the enemy's continued volliee.
Ills Ithjeaty's 38th regiment, which led, first entered the enemy's
entrenchments on the heights, driving him from hill to hill, over
precipices which could only be ascended by a narrow stair, until
the whole of the formidable position, nearly three miles in extent,
was in our possession.
During the attack his Excellency Commodore Sir James Britt-
bane afforded me the must able co.operstion ; and I do myself the

honour to enclose his Excellency's report of the good conduct of
the officers and men of the Hon. Company's service, serving on
board the flotilla; and 1 much regret to observe the tame of
Captain Dawson, of his Majesty's ship Arachne, who was con-
spicuously for*ard is the attack, amongst the list of killed.
Lieutenants Underwood, Commandmg Engineer, and Abbott.
of the Bengal Engineers, who had .10444 reconnoitered rho
enemy's position, both volunteered to leave the columns, and were,
I ant sorry to say, both wounded on that service.
I have also to regret the loss of many promising young officers
and brave soldiers ; but 1 ant happy to observe that our loss. con-
sidering the extent anti strength of the enemy's positions and grog
numerical superiority, has oot been great, and I owe it to the
troops to say, that the impression of their own steadiness and in.
tremdity upon the minds of the enemy, could alone have secured
to them the brilliant successes of the Ist and 2d, with so few
casualties as will be found in the returns 1 have the honour here-
with to transmit. _ _

.._.... .....
The defeat of the enemy on the east bank of the Irrawaddy has
been most complete. Ile has been driven from all his strong posi-
tions in this neighbourhood, with the loss of all his artillery, greet
quantities of ammunition and warlike stores; and although it is
impossible, from the natute of the ground, to calculate the extent
of his loss in killed and wounded, I am satisfied be has sullitrel
most severely ; and 1 am much mistaken if the Burmese Com-
mander again assembles a force within many thousands of the
number lately in our front.
The right corps of the enemy's army, under Sudds Woos, ap-
pears still to occupy some high ground on the west bank of the
Irrawaddy. Measures are now in progras tor attacking that divi-
sion, and I have nu doubt it will be dislodged from its defences to-
morrow morning.
On the 6th I purpose marching upon Illeeaday by the Neoun.
benzick road, with the Ist division of the army.. Itrigadier.Oisterai
Cotton, with the 2d division. will remain a few days linger to ace
In cooperation with the flotilla, in the event of the enemy having
rallied in his defences on the ricer between I'rome said Neoumben-
sick. I have no certain information upon his next tallying point.
3leeaday, on the east, and hlaloune on the west ba of the river.
are both fortified, and are furnished with artillery. They are beta
named as the probable points of re-anion, and I shall lose no time
in appearing before whichever they, have chosen for that purpose;