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the honour to call him to his councils, he had
uniformly eeted cenforniably to his own conscious-
ness of reelitude, and from an unceasing wish
to do every thing which appeared to him the most
gel). to promote and forward the happiness and '
prosperity of the county. Vsithin the short time
of peace, he had made the greatest exertions to
make the establishment as efficient and respeaeble
as possible ; since the commencement of the war, the
'erne exertions had been unremittingly continued.
In 1804, we had 800,00 1 men in arms, ready for
service ; and, at the present moment, we have
egreater y f formersthn
period. this country ever possess-
d at anHaving made these
observations, he would not trouble their Lordships
Any farther at present than to say, that the pre-
sent motion would have his decided negative.
The Duke of CLARE NCR began, by returning
his thanks to th • Noble Viscount whe had just sat
down, for some expression he had used on a former
ureht, in allusion to some argument of his, that in
elirering his sentiments, he would do so freely, let
th, r ink mei situation of life be what it might, of the
e syr %seem he had to reply to. He hoped, as he
inirrh t, p;, heel, have frequent occasions to allude to
thttNoble :sedum and othersof His Majesty s Minis-
ters, that net only the Noble V iscountwould adhere to
that resolution, but that every Minister would do the
sums a, he wished not any particular regard to
rut rank in life which circumstances had conferred
,in biro, hut that he should be considered only as a
peer of Park reient, and in that light, and that only,
could he, or would he, wish to deliver his sentiments
before their Lordships. He thanked the Noble Vis-
a also, tor a few of his arguments on the Bill,
as they were the same he would use, only in a differ-
ent and opposite sense. He owned it was hut justice
to the late Ministers to allow, that thee did raise a
great military force, in a very short time, im.ne-
diately after the commencemeot of the war, which
they had no sooner dune, than the present Mini-
sters raised against them a violent clamour ;
mind them out of their places, and put them-
selves in their stead, and then brought in a Bill,
which was to prove one of the most brilliant :nee-
Wes that ever was seen, but which has turned out
to be no more then a mere bubble or nullity.
His Royal I lighness thee proceeded to state, that the
velunteer system was subjeek to many defetts, cniefly
from want of a proper portion of time to attend to
their duty, and &mm a deficiency in the regulations
by whirl they were governed, to attain the neces-
sary potection in subordination and discipline. He
bad paid the utmost attention to the Volunteers,
and was pertealy convinced of the existence of the
deft& he had meat4oned. It was, therefore,
the more requisite to attend to the military
part of our de -ence—the regular army.—ln order
to do this prop_rly, it would be necessary to divide
it into its several integral parts, such as Militia,
-.C.ivalry, British arid foreign, arid Intantry of the
like deur oticeit. tie thought he could prove to
their Lordships' se.isfaetion. that the army, thus
constituted and divided, w..<, in all its parts, very
greedy and alarmingly deficient in the neineers
at wl,i-h it was. stated. He then adverted to
t! eA: y, which, be contended, was also defec-
tive ; but out to so peat a th. rye as the other
branches of our Regular Army. His Royal High-
ness stated from the estimates, that the cavalry ought
to amount to ikeleti men ; but, he said, they were
deficient considerably upwards of 80(X). That the
infantry were she less than during the last year,
though there hal not been a single shot fired
in anger between them and any of the enemies of
this country, from tire Ist Jan. 1504 to the Ist Jan.
1805. 'That the &Adis ice the infantry since August
were upwarde of S.'ooo, and the recruits only so
mem: elative that number, as to mike the increase
no mine than 110 ; so that the total deficit in the
infantry was not less than 86,863 men ; a number
which would constitute an immense army. What,
he asked, could Ministers say to this ? And what
must the country think of so alarming a deficiency,
at the very moment when those ivlinisters have
brought us into a new war? A war which they had
commenced by diserAcing the-a:marls iif our naval
glory, and making the first efforts of our fleet,
to consist of an ea of pirecy. they talk of
disposeable force when they are conscious they
have no such thing ; though they are engaged
with an enemy, who possesses immense forces,
and resources, from the Mouth of the Elbe, to
Male. It this be true, which he insisted it was,
how, he asked, would it be possible, that, with et:eh
a deficiency. Ministers would dare to send a single
man out of the country ? If they contented them-
selves with burly resting oat their arms, without
being able to attack the enenr, , he contended it
inset prove the inevitable ruin of Ole country ; and,
as ee hacked on this bill ti' be the principal cause of
this glaring and dangeems deficiency, he would cer-
tainly vote for its immediate repeal.
Lord MULG RAVE said, he only knew three
compulsory modes of raising a military force, vie.
absolute conscription; the system upon which the
Army of Reserve was raised ; arid the present
bill. The first of these, he said, the feeling
and temeer of the country would not brook.—
A bill had been brought in, to repeal the se-
cond, from a sense of its having become useless,
and the third only remained, which, though
it should cease to be able to raise men, might
still produce money through the medium of
its penalties. '1 wo other modes had been sug-
gested, as partial substitutes tar it, namely, gene-
rel service for a limited time, or raising men
rink. The former was coadeinned by all
erofessemal men, and the latter he knew tended to
the deal action of the spirit and discipline of the
army. After dwelling for some time upon
these topics, the Noble Lord proceeded to an-
!wet some insinuations of a personal nature.—
He was or opinion, that the late AdmiiiistrAtioe was
not sufficiently strong for the exigencies of the
times ; but he never had supported one measure
inconsistent with that opinion. He wished to see
an union of those whom he had for many years
s'i?ported and admired, when acting together.—
He had seen them carry the country through unex-
ampled difficulties in opposition to the man whom
some of them sow supported. He did not think
them ra Attached to that person, as not to hepe
that they would return to their old friends. Thus
touch he thought it his duty to say, in answer to the
'haree of derelietion of principle on his part ; a
charge without any foundAtion, as he bad always

w:.;r V..

:Vied upon the most uniform, open, and broad
ground.
Viscount SIDIIOUTH explained.
Lord GRENVILLE—" The Noble Viscount
(Mu'grave) has anticipated a great part of what 1
meant to say. Hellas stated, in terms as strong,
and in a mode as perspicuous, as it would be possible
to conceive, the total contradietion of the arguments
urged in support of the measure. But let me ask,
whether any man can vote for a measure, that rests
upon grounds so contradietory ? I felt and knew
the bill had and defedive, when it was trst intro-
.

dined. The Noble Viscount admits its defitiency in re-
spet of its inostensible Ojea; but he says it may be
adviseable to let it continue as a financial measure

in relation to the penalties. I cannot agree, that it
bad in every other particular, it ought to be con-
tinued for such a purpose. I cannot agree that a
Bill, the most unjust and partial that ever was im-
posed, should be continued for the cake of the
money it may produce. I think that those who are
interested in the reputation of Parliament rind the
safety of the country, will not be content with what
is radically had, but that they will turn to some
fixed and right ground upon which to rear a per-
manent and complete structure. Of course their
first proceeding will be to repeal that which is al-
lowed to be bad and defeCtive. When the Bill was
formerly objeCted to, the case was different
from what it is now. Then the arguments
against it were derived from theory, but now
we have the evidence of praCtical experience. Those
who felt it teen their duty to oppree it, have con-
sequently now a stronger reason to perform the
same duty. They originally recommended another
measure as preferable to the present Bill. Why
then do they not adhere to their original opinion,
now confirmed by experience, and adopt now the
course which they originally advised us to pursue ?
Is it that they have not getter means to carry it into
effect, and are we. to be told that their authority is
less now than it was then ? I agree entirely with
the premises laid down by the Noble Viscount. 1
believe the measure originally bad and inefficient,
'but I differ from him in his conclusion, a • I consider
that a good reason why it should be repealed. We
have had eight months experience of it, and that
experience has only served to confirm the original
opinion of its ineficacy. The original question was,
will the imasiere produce a large lot ce ? . That
question has been now decided in the negative, and
of course in conformity with the Noble Viscount's
opinion. My Lords, I have stated how little this
bill will contribute to the reputation of Parliament,
if it is to continue for the purpose of revenue, leavirg
the country :a suffer every inconvenience that attends
it. With the -erasures proposed in the progress of
the Bill as preferable to it, I do not profess to be inti-
mately acquainted, as they were suggested in the other
House. An augmentation of the Militia, I believe,
how. ver, was one, and to that plan, as a means of
pie ividing a large disposable force, I shall ever
glealy assent. Ido ales think, that a more certain
me Ins to ruin the army, to destroy its energy, its
discieline and spirit, cannot be devised, than that
of raising men for reek. Upon this point, I can
speak with confidence, because I was formerly of a
differein opinion ; .but I now feel that I was wrong
I request, then, the Noble Viscount not' to suffer
himself to be led astray; and not for the sake of
any local or pa.tial interests to persevere in a de-
t! Live measure, but to ;let upon a broae, solid,
and pert:muscat principle, rejeting those defec-
tive exeedients. that boll cut only the promise
of temporary and partial advantage. I did ez-
pc& that one of the first benefits which the
country was to derive from the present Govern-
ment, would have been the repeal of this measure.
The Noble Viscount, while he admits its deficiency,
has, in its jestification, put an alterative ; but 1
du not think it a tait respresentetion of the
ease. He says there were only three different
modes, and having shesen that two of them
were bad, he thence infers that the present measure,
which i 3 the third one, must be, therefore, adopted.
Now, I conceive this to be a false mode of reason-
ing. It is begging the question. The object of the
Bill was to raise men. The question then to be
asked, in relation to its merits or demerits, is,
does it raise men ? New it does not raise men.—
Therefore, it cannot be a competent measure, nor
is it a satisfaCtury answer to say it raises mon-y. The
measure of raising men for limited service has
been also mentioned, and I differ much from those
who argue against it. I have heard much general
argument upon the sitbjeEt, but I never yet found an
individual who could specify diitinCl, dirca,
and particular inconvenience resulting from it.
—lt was, however, intended, he understood, not
to encourage, but to throw impediments in its
way. For his part, he did not think the ex-
periment had been fairly tried. It should have
been universally understood, and brought into gene-
ral use, before it ought to be condemned. The in-
tmdtietion of bertalions, and other new military di-
visions and ariengements, produeed jealousy, un-
certainty, and mistrust. It is not to be expeCted,
that men will be at once reconciled to measures, in
the duration of which they have no confidence. To
have its full operation and effect, it must be diffused
as a geneu el principle through the army, and be-
come familiar to our whole military establishment,
as a part of its essence. It was not, he allowed,
competent to produce a great force immediately, or
upon the spur of the occasion—but it was surely
better than a measure that had been fouad oppres-
sive, bad, and improduCtive. I hope it will be dist. 1
cussed as a great and important question, whether
the state of the army requires any alteration ? When-
ever that question comes before the House, it may
be expedient to consider the propriety of the mea-
sure to which I allede. It would be desirable also
to put an end to all the complicated machinery, all
those inexecuteble plans, that have been lately in-
troduced—and to have recourseto the original mode
for recruiting the army of England. But, it has
been objeeted, if you repeal the bill, you leave the
country without adequate means of defence. That
is not the case. Were the bill to be repealed, it
would become the duty of the House to consider
what substitutes should be adopted for those bug-
bears of supplementary battalions, &c. under the
present measure. Upon the introduetion of any
measure in its place, there would be nothing to pre-
treat any Member from suggesting, in the shape of
a clause, any improvement which he thought pro-
per. The present bill is such, that if you want an
asiditiouel force, it is useless; and if you do not


want an additional force, it is dangerous, unjust.
and partial. With these impressions, I have spoken
against the present bill In all great public ques-
tions, I have always adheres to the principle of
avoiding every thing like personality, and arguing
them upon public grounds. I should, dicier; re,
be glad to be released upon the present occasion.
from the necessity of making any observation
upon the condua of inOividuals ; but the Noble
Viscount has addr-seed the whole of his spech to
me, that I am obtged to depart from my usual
course. To the charge which he has bron4it
against me, it becomes therefore my duty to state
my defence. Being put upon my defence, let me,
my Lords, say a few words, not by way of recrimi-
nation or reproach, but strialy on my justification
and defence. I am accused of having passed a
great part of my life in friendship and intimacy with
a man for whom I retain the highest regard and
esteem, though I have ceased to alt in political con-
cert with him (Mr. Pitt). and to co-operate now
with another (Mr. Fox), to whom, and his friends, I
used to be placed in opposition. 'l'o that charge I
most readily plead guilty. From my earliest years I
have entertained for that man the warmest friend-
ship; and 1 do hope and believe, that there is no-
thing in the present state of politics, however we
may differ in opinion, that is likely to dissolve it,
upon his part or upon mine. That friendship was
grounded upon a sense of his honour and delicacy,
and not upon the insulting idea, that I must de-
grade myself to acquire his friendship; that I must
have no opinion of my own ; but that to Feserve his
regard; I must yield a blind obedience to his will.
Can any Noble Lord believe that our friendship was
grounded on such a principle ? I disclaim it—
( nod ,heeresig).—With regard to the other part of
the charge, namely, that I now aft with the man
and his friends, to whom I used to be in op-
position ; do not your Lordships know that
by the usage and constitution of Parliament, I
am at liberty to avail myself of the aid of those
who happen to think with me ; that it is perfealy
fair and honourable in the pursuit of any political
obje&, which I conceive essential to the country, to
take advantage of that fair and parliamentary as-
sistance, without which that objea cannot be ob-
tained (loud cheering ) . If I wanted a precedent. I
might appeal to the very person whom I am
charged with deserting, and whose conduit the No-
ble Viscount has not attempted to arraign. Again,
after the country had been brought to the brink of
ruin by a weak and imbecile Administration, when
it was the universal opinion, that we had only one
point to look to for safety ; when there seemed to
be only one wish in the country, and that wish was
to form an Administration, comprehending all the
rank, talent, and property of the kingdom ; if it ise
a dereliction of principle on my part to aft with the
men, to whom the Noble Viscount alludes, in the
manner I have done, what will be said of that very
person whom the Noble Viscount so justly extols,
who sought to introduce into His bin nty's Coun-
cils that very individual, with whom it is now dis-
honourable for me to aft, though out of ffire, and
without the same weight of irresponsibility ? It was
.honatiiable for that person to go into His Majesty's
closet, and to recommend to alsigh station in His
Majesty's government the very individual with '
whom I am now told it is a disgrace to co-operate.
(loud cheering.) And what has beets the condua on
my part which has merited this reproach ? I was 011 C
of those who thought an adminlsfration upon a
broad and comprehensive basis essential to the safety
of the country, and finding a principle of exclusion
afterwards set up. I refused to concur in it. I did
not, however, blame any man. Not one word cf
the kind ever escaped me, but I could not make
myself responsible for au administration upon that
ground. and contrary to my opinion. Such are the
dereliction of principle and mcon-istency of cow*
duff which the Noble Viscount has thought fit to
lay to my charge."
Lord MELVILLE, after some preliminary ob-
servations, said, that the Army of Reserve was one
of the best auxiliary measures towards increasing the
regular force, and when men were once aCCUS.
toined to discipline, it became habitual, aid, in the
end, either from example, from ambition, or from
the additional bounty, great numbers were drawn
into the regular service. He asked, were their
Lordships now to be told, that after only a
few months experience, they were to give up
a measure which produced such additional
force ? And contended that from the shortness of
the time, from the opposition the bill had met
with in its progress, and from the manner it
had been introduced •to the country, it had not
had a fair trial. Before their Lordships proceeded
upon the Army of Reserve Bill, the mode of re-
cruieng was found inefficient. He therefore strongly
alvis,d the House not to depart from an establish-
ed system, for the purpose of trying different expe-
riments, founded only upon theory. Under these
circumstances, he persevered in the opinion which
he originally gave upon this subjea, that this
Was the best mode of introducing men from a li-
mited to a general service, and the moat salutary
measure which could be resorted to. His Lordship
then proceeded to make a few observations upon
some personal expressions which the Noble Lord
on the other side had thought proper to intro-
duce into the debate. Those theatrical exhibitions in
Parliamentary theatres were by no means becom-
ing, that sort of personal rancour and personal
abuse was more mischievous in its consequences
than perhaps their Lordships were aware ot. lie as-
sured them that there were instigators enough, out
side the walls of that House, who would make their
own use of such controversies.
The Earl of Fara supported the Motion.
Lord HAMILESSURY and the Earl of BUCKISO.•
it A 34011 as spoke against the Motion.
The Earl of D•11041.11Y replied.
The Question being loudly called for, a division
took place, when there appeared for the Earl of
Darnley's Motion 45—Against it 113—Majority tie.
At HALF-PAST ONE O'CLOCK the House
adjourned to Monday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mr. BAKER took toe Oath and bn Nat for Hartford

Mr. WALLACE moved that the Revetend Chaste. Harry
Had, Prebendary of ChreachurA,Orti.,o.l, be tainted to picatth
before this House on Wednesday the 2n tit utat. ati St. Mario.
Fes duvet'. Wedinintter, which wa. agreed to
Mr. Rosie, by eonaniand of Hi. Maj.:sty, brought up an
Account of the Ett.a-ndinary Expencet or the Army, from
the sth of January lane, tre the corresponding day
au IYW,
whtth wan Otdeted to Le on the Ta


, .
Sir JOHN NEWPORT rn,„ved for nn Account of
shins crewel on the Irish F.stah.:shment trice the ac
the bp that were prosented, diaingttshing the dates
Bret. seer.. granted .--.orile„..d. . I
On rue Waters ..f Mr, RUSE, the Report of the Quar.
Bill was d4-real rill Adcriday net. •
A Menage from the Lonlc acquainted the House that their
1•n41.14:1" ltaA art.,' Sr. tin' Du,* Millions' achequer Billie
Ri'l, and qualifkation Indemnity Bill, and tire Land and Malt I
and Stag., Welt II tls,„,..iiiriut .ineitdmett••
Mr. MAYNE :ires,:ii,ed • Petition fonn the Retail Traders
of the town •.1 Ildfact, in tr.iiinil, co.nistain og of the hard-
ships eh, y ...trio,' hi outset:tiente of the diit‘ of 01 per cent.
trimu losp..r.s made lay Retain Tradeis, which duty, the Whole-
sale Te,..ler, a-te exempted fur n.
Mr. FOSTER said he ,hould net oL4e. to the Petition being
brought up, hot he would not lentil 0-nt hopes to ,he Petiiiontrs
that he would C..kilCuT M the Rep al of the Tax, while the ex-
penditure of the country to much ex.:voted its revenue.
After a few words from Mr. C .10t, delivered in an in-
nuili,ilr tone of voice, tire Petiti 4I Way uraeir i to lie tin the
'rattle. •
Mr. MAYNE next presented a Petition from the Wtp.kile
Traders in Betfiet, pray),,:: for the rv-,.eal of the T...:, awl al-
leging that the were waling to f0r..;0 the „mien. re---y en-
joyed, io this rowel, o,'Cl the Retail Tradenh—Oitlerect to Its
on the Table.
Mi. MAYNE then gave notice that he should move fur that
Repeal of the afor,said Tax on Friday next ;and (hat he ..hott'el '
at the same time move for an Account of the produce of the
'fax being laid before the HOLI,e•
Mr. HUSKI'sSON moved that there he laid before the I r),9l* ..
•
an Accouid of the Disorinot tin of the Money raised last year ida .
pwsuarice of the vote for issuing 2,500,0001. by loan osf Ex-
chequer Bills. •
The Luialtv Loan PIN was read a third time and pared.
Mr. HAWTHORN presented a Petition from the Retail
Tractors of Antrim, of a similar teudeocv to that pres-rated
be Mr. Mayne fru ii Belfast, 'itch was orderer) to he on the
Table.
He'next moved for an Acctunt of the Pmdnee of the 51. pee • , • .
Cent. Duties on the Retad 'Traders of Ireland, and .:1„.. !or as
Account of the Import Duties paid on tire sinie Duties in
Enteand.—Ordered . •
PUBLIC REVENUE. .
Mr. JOHNSTONE said that he fonni k impos-
sible to form an accurate judgment of the Revenue
of the present year, without having before him the ''
1
amount and items of the Revenue of the preceding
year, which he did not find on the Ta!;le of the
House ; the Distribution Table world not answer
the purpose he intended. There was one circum-
stance in particular of very great importaoce. It
appeared front the documents hitherto presented,
that the Consoli hated Fund, which, in last yer...t's
Budget, was estimated at 50300,u001. hid, up to
the 14th of Fehrtrary, amounted to no more than
1,500.0001. which lett a deficit of 3.500,0e01. ill
the account of the public revenue ; and in another
item, estimated it V 2,000.0001. he toned only the
cri of 4,5 rew43,oooi whiendefelcations, he thought,
itist
. rti•d some explanation.
t .
Ii;IVSKISSON said, that the account was
-
lAltretattted, on the Estimates as yet presented, up
eel hat Wee received to the Sth I.f Aril. ar,d, that
the illietior receipts were now preparing, arid would
be laid before the House as soon as pcs-ibiN an 3 as
far as they could at present be made up Tire Ac-
counts of the produce of the Constlid,ited Fend,
which the Hon. Get:tleman spoke of, were only ,
made up to the Ist of Jat,uary. Of course there
would be a considerable sum to be added to the
1,500,0001. stated ;n the Account; but, upon the
whole, there must be a great deficiency (rum the
Estimate of last year, which he confessed hicnreit n. 4 •
prepared to explain, but which, he made no d, oho,
would be satistadorily accounted for by .Is Right
Hon. Friend (Mr Pitt) who was not yet in the House.
Mr. JOHNSTONF. then moved, that *ere)*
laid bef•re the House. an account of the Eritheqeser
Bills issued in the year I WA, now nut tartsfizsg, wed
charged upon the supplies of the yea? t?,1.0.i.
Mr. HUSKISSON said he had nu objection • te .
the motion, which WAS agreed to. .
COMMISSIONERS OF NAV 11. rNcirrty. • t
Mr. GI I,ES gave notice that he should submit is
motion relative to the Ctornmissioners of Naval En-" • •
quiry, on Monday se'noight.
Mr. KINNAI RD te•ished to blow sef‘en the pa.. • 1
pens moved for relating to this ft:Ned would lee
~, -•
produced ? a
Mr. WM. DICKINSON replied, that the p--
..
pers were preparing with all possible erpeclitint, and, '
he had reason to think, would be delivered on Tues.
..
day next. ..
• .
ABOLITION OF TfIE SLAVE TRADE.
Mr. WILBERFORCE said, he did not fird it
necessary to trespass much upon the time at the
House, in arguing a subject which had obtained
their assent almost unanimously. in the list session
of Parliament. He should, theretore, unless some
unexpected objedions or opposition shi•uld arise.
confine himself to referring to the resolution agreed
to for the Abolition of the Slave Trade, in the last
session ; which being read, he moved, that the
House should resolve itself into ll Committee ot tl.e
whole House, in order that he might have leave to
bring in a Bill founded on the said resolution.
General GASCOIGNE sai,',. he cht;,.1,1 t.,..s I,ls
objedion to thistneasure. so as to costa. ts• 1 •°, , Hti
up& the presets motion ; bu:, as the Lop. (ice-
tleman thought proper to refer them us a resoluttem
of last yea-, he wished to remark, that circum-
stances had occurred since, sufficient to make a
groat alteration in their sentiments. He should ex-
plain what these important circumstances were,
when the proper opportunity rifeted ; but he WAN
desirous of giving notice, in linti,:e, that he should
oppose the Bill in every stage ot its progress.
Sir WM. YOVNG said, that he should sheet ! is
aversion from this measure, by epposing :I: e-briii- it t;
in of the Bill in the outset. The agitation ref t:..;
measure had done considerable mischitf alreads ;
but much more would ensue, if suciaquestions 01,041
be persevered in. The resolution of last year, aul
the bill founded upon it, were no guide to their con-
du .% this year, and could not be referred to :14 a
measure they stood pledged to. The wisdom of
Parliament, upon important suhjeds, allowed them
the power of revision, in ads pissed ceen Li the
same ses.ion, and the different stages, no lewthan
seven or eight, allowed for the discussion of tray
bill, could only be allowed, in ceder chat they may
_ .

WU, COILICI °my
change their first determination, .if sufficient re:.sone
should be assigned for it. He understrod it to be
the intenti.sn of the advocates of this measure, to
force the bill precipitately thtough the House. All
he wished for was, to allow the usual and fair gra-
dations and delays, that the opinion of the House
should no: be taken by surprise.
Mr. FULLER said a few ward), which we cooki
not diain:ily liar, but understood them to be in op-
position m tae Motion.
GenerJ TA RL FON sail, that th,,ugh the ttis e
was stated Lest year to. be upoa the decline, ..e
should shortly have to present to the House a Pitt.