The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1805-05-14 00:00:00

TUESDAY, NAY 14:1805.

others, that what they wished for was relief from
the payments of tythes : what might be the effeS of
the intro,ltraion of a large number of men, repre-
senting such per,o,ns, inr‘• thc• Legislaturc, might
easi`l he conceived. Apprehensions were enter-
tained at the time of the Scots Union from the

trodanion of only 45 dissenting Membe; s ; but how
much mote must such a cun.ideration Apply to
the present case Ile fclt'the highest respea and
predelittica far those principles on which the revolu-
tion was established ; and under them, he said, the

subjea enjoyed the greatest possible portion of
political sappiness. He could nut consent to that
which would endanger the very foandation of that
constitution, which, by its intrinsic excellence, was
preserved ; while the governments and constitutions
of ether countries fell a prey to the machinations or
the attacks of jacobinism. He never could bring
his mind to accede to what appears to go to make
the principles urns which the title of the Illustrious
House of Brunswick rested, or place the Noble and
Learned Lord upon the Woolsack, in a situation of
presenting that to the Soveceignfor his assent, which,
he ought think, struck at the best and dearest i.o.
terests of the country. These, he thought, could
be best avoidt.d, as tar as in him lay, by his voting
against the prayer of the petition.
Lord Viscount CARLETON, in an able and argu-
mentative speech, supperted the effect of what was
advanced by the noble Earl who spoke last. lie
noticed the circumstance, that the R"man Catho-
lics, as relief was extended to them, increased in
their demands. He knew of no particular ads,
now, which re tremble precluded Ctholics from
holding offices, but the operation of certain tests,
not peculiarly applicable to them, but to every de-
scription of His Majesty's subjeas. He entertained
similar apprehensions with the noble Eat! with re-
spell to the danger of the eccb-siastical establish-
ments of the country, were the prayer of the
Petition agreed to ; and he adverted to the
very great influence still possessed by the Tape,
the medium of the clerg, upon the great
mass of the Catholics in Ireland, whose influ-
ence, through the regular system of Romish Ec-
clesiastical government which prevailed there, was
almost unbounded. 'The Noble and Learned Vis-
count proceeded to comment npies these topics, and
supported with his accdstorned talents and legal po-
litical knowledge, the principal tobjedions urged
against the prayer of the Petition so fmcibly by the
Noble Earl who preceded hint.
Lord HDTCtiINSON dehitered bit sen'imen4
upon the topics in discussion, with a considerable de-
gree of animation and warmth. He reprobated
the idea thrown oat by some. Noble Lards. that the
late rebellion in Ireland was a' Roman Catholic re-
hellion. On the contrary. the *ens of its leaders
were to destroy the cc..neciioil between Great Bri-
tain and Ireland. an lastead thereof to erea a Re-
public without a Xing. s Priest, or a Religion. The
leaders of that intearrteliaa were mostly able men,
aiidconseqoently they recurred tn eve y means to pm-
cure assistanceandt,uppOrt, which couldinfluence the
minds of men, or touch the feelings of the human
heart ; bin while means were adopted on the one
hand to sow dissentious between persons of different
religions persuasions in that country, he was sorry
to observe, that artifices, not very dissimilar, were
resorted to in this country, to inflame the minds of
persons of one religion, against those who profess
another, instead of endeavours being made to stifle
those illiberal prejudices which had so long existed.
Things had been asserted in that House, which
tendered it impossible for him to pass over, without
endeavouring to rescue the charailer of hit country.
If the assertions to which he alluded were made in
another place, he would not hesitate to call them
the most unfounded calumnies. He little expelled,
when this great and important question came to he
discussed in the United Parliament, to hear it treated
and discussed hi such a way ; when one of the main
advancers he expelled to result from the Union
was, that such subjeas would he considered of
and discussed in a way befitting the liberal
and enlightened Legislature of a peaceful and
United Kingdom. His Lordship then entered into
a vindication of the eon,lna of the Roman Catho-
lics, in many respeas, from the objeßions which
had been made against it, and made several obser-
vations with respea to the supposed influence which
the clergy, and particularly the Pope, had over the
great body of the Catholics in Ireland, and which
he characterised very differently tram the statements
of Noble Lords opposite to him, on that head.
Towards the conclusion of kis address, the Noble
Lord particularly adverted to some matters in the
way of accusation against the Catholics, which had
been touched upon by a Noble and Learned Lord,
on the former debate upon the subjeft. A great deal
of this was to him most extrarrdinary, and more
calculated for the meridian of a nursery, than for
matter of debate in a grave, sober assembly of Le-
gislators. Some part of what that Noble and Learn-
ed Lord asserted, was of that nature, that he now
called upon him for his evidence of the truth of it.
He begged to be informed how or its what family
such things existed ? lle censured that line of con-
dtia, and the use of language which, instead of
tending to establish tranquillity. or to induce re-
pose, went to sow dissentions and inflame the minds
of men against each other. He reprobated the
weak and wicked policy which went to put such a
number of loyal subjects of the King out of the
pale of the Constitution. He adjured the House to
agree to the motion of the Noble Lord, as best cal-
enlaced to strengthen the empire at large in so pe-
rilous a crisli as the present ; and to restore a long
distralted and abused country to tranquillity, union,
and prosperity.
Lord REDk:SDALE, feeling himself so pointedly
adverted to by the last speaker, begged their Lord-
ships' indulgence for a short esplenation. What
he really said, on the points alluded to, was, and be
knew the fat, that it was with the utmost difficulty
a Protestant could procure a service or employment
in Ireland. Ile had offi .ial opportunities of know-

ing this, as trustee to several charities. Even in
/Alin, the difficulty was very great, and th,iy were
obliged to pat the children apprentices to handicraft
trades. What he adeanced on those points was in-
controvertibly fad, and he was ready to declare it
upon oath. A great deal of the evils he referred to
on a former night, were owing to the, existence of
the Homan Catholic hierarchy in Ireland, which
was diredly contrary to the law of the land. He
was inclined to think the Catholics in general would
be as well behaved and orderly in Ireland—were it
not for the existence of that hierarchy—as in this
country, wh.ne no such system exists. I-le hew
that in many parts of Ireland, a Protestant labourer
could not find means to exist. Handicraftsmen
sometimes got employment in the towns ; but
children of Protestants, or day-labourers, who hats-
petted to be of that religion, found the greatest dilii-
eulty in getting either service or employment. He
would not be deterred from delivering his senti-
ments, or stating fads which cadre within his know-
ledge, by any language held by any Noble Lnrd in
that House.
The Vail of ORMOND animadverted with a
considerable degree of warmth upon some points
which tell from the Noble Lord. He deemed
it incumbent on him to contradid these, as urfound-
edly refleding on the charadet of his country.
The points to which he alluded, he really had never
heard of before, nor could be conceive that any
such things could have existed. They were fitter,
he thought, to be recited among a parcel of old wo-
men, than told in that assembly.
Lord BORINGDON," though upon the whole
he deemed favourably of the measure, yet he
thought it neither fit nor desirable to agitate it at
present. That impression should regulate his vote.
Thy- Archbishop of CANTERBURY disap-
proved of the Motion. After a snits of conces-
sions, such as had been naltde to the Catholics, he
did not exped a proceeding of this kind, which, if
he ogreed to, he thonght would eventually be dan-
gerous in a Protestant state.
The Earl of ALBEMARLE, in a speech of
some length, supported the Motion. He spoke in
vindication of the Catholics, from the charge of
their believing that no faith was to be kept with
heretics.
The LORD CHANCELLOR, in a speech of
some length, displayed his usual ability, legal and
political knoiriedge, in supporting and enforcing
the leading arguments of Noble Lords, who, like
himself, were, upon the whole, unfavourable to the
Motion.

I'he Dukes of NORFOLK argued in support of
the !Similar.
The Earl of WESTMORLAND and the Bishop
of ST. ASAPII severally spoke against the Motion;
as did
Lord ELLENBOROUGII in a speech of great
ability, and at some length.
The Earl of MOIRA, in a neat and forcible
sPc•:ths supported the hlotien ; were he induced to
tLint that the prayer of the Petition would in the
least clash with the establishments of the country in
Church and State, he certainly should not support
it. With respell to the stress which had been laid
on the Catholics acknowledging the exclusive supre-
macy of the Pope; he argued, that it referred merely
to spiritual considerations, and by no means to poli-
tical.
The Earl of DARNIsEY also took the same side,
and adverted to some considerations, which evinced
that the condat of the Protestants of Ireland was
not such as should tend to conciliate their Catholic
fellow-subjefts; and he supported the arguments of
Noble Lords at his side, that the late Rebellion was
not a Catholic one.
The Earl of CHICHESTER argued at some
length, rather against the motion.
Lord AUCKLAND delivered his sentiments
against the motion at sotre length, proceeding upon
those general principles, which on a former occasion
his Lordship adverted to as indicative of his opinions
on the subjed.
The remainder of the Df.bate, though in some
parts interesting, the extreme lateness of the hour
obliges us to omit. The following is a sketch of
proceeding ;
Lord JUNG, in a speech of some length, sup-
ported the Motion.
. The Bishop of DURHAM said a few words in
explanation.
Lord BOLTON opposed the Motion.
The Earl of LONGFORD delivered his senti-
ments ; after Which
Lord GRENVILLE entered. upon an able re-
ply, of considerable letigth, which being finished ;
Lord Viscount SIDMOUTH, in explanation,
said it was his wish to remove all religious restraints,
if any yet existed, on the Roman Catholics ; to al-
low them a fall community of civil rights, with the
rest of His Majesty's subjetls, but it was never his
idea to put into their bands powers to subvert the
Constitution !
The question being loudly called for, tlfb Ilouse
divided—
For the motion, 37—Proxies, 11-51—Against
it, 133—Proxies, 45-178.—Majority against Lord
Grenville's motion, 147.
At HALF-PAST FIVE O'CLOCK this morn-
, ing, the House adjourned till Wednesday.
a

ROUSE OF COMMONS.
A Msiage from the Lords informed the House,
that their Lordships had agreed to permit Lord
Harrowby to be examined before the Sele& Com-
mittee of the House, on the subject of the Tenth
Repott, if his Lordship thought tit.
The Lords also requested a conference with that
House, in the painted chamber, on the subjeft of
the Message, sent from that House, requesting
their Lordships to permit Viscount Melville to be
examined betire the said Select Committee, on the
subject of the Tenth Report.
The House agreed to the conferente, anti a Corm
miters was appointed to manage the conference on

T

NT.

-. ;

• • 'I

(P7l, IiZ"XWC*,

the part of the Commons, who waited oa the Lords
accordingly; and. on •thtir return. Mr. IA eester,
the Chairman, appearvd at the bar. and sta et: .he •
result, that the Lords, after urging the nature of
their privileges, with respea to permitting 2cers t
be examined by Committees of that House, had de-
sired the Committee appointed by the Commons to
manage the conference, to inform the Mouse, that
their Lordships had agreed to permit Viserint Mel-
ville to attend the &led Committee, if his Lordship
thought fit.

CATHOLIC PETITION.
Mr. FOX rose to make the Motion of which -
had so long given notice, and spoke to the f-dlowirg
purp.rt :—' Sir, I coliftss it is with no incousiderabla
degree of anxiety that! now :hie to bring forward a
suujeft for the consideration of the House, which I

deem to be of Gr greater importance than any to
which I ever yet had the honour of calling their ,t-
-tention. Still, Sir, though I do feel such
it is solely on account of the .-cat importance of it,
and not from any doubt ci its real claims to the
coasideraiion ar.d justice 44m House., .After! •
having lately aeled in many instances in which
the minds of the Members of this Hoe have
been harrassed, by investigating voices aCCUSa.
tinns for sifts of delinquency, which do no ho-
nour to the country, and cannot but be painful
to every one who regrets on their nature and ten-
dency ; it is with the highest satisfadion that 1 nosy
bring before the House a subjed which, though tt
may perhaps, by some, be considered asliarrassing.
will, I am certain, be deemed by the Esileatest part
as entitled to every degree of resped and regard, as
it rests entirely on principles which every man must
feel to be just and right, wlw, fairly considering the
blessings attendant on the Constitution of this coun-
try, and the great hardship those crust naturally teal
who are in any degree, as they conceive, unjustly
debarred from, or deprived of them. Sir, the clues•
tion which 1 bave now the honour to lay before ei,u,
for I protest I de feel it a very great her.our to have
been seleded to bring forward this suhjed, arises
nut of a Petition which has just beon read to the
'louse, and which comes from a bc•dy of peoples

who form four-fifths of His Majesty's subjects in Ire.
land, consisting, in the whole,, of four or five mil-
lions of people. The Roman Cattiolicatiorre are es.
timated at tour millions, which gia us t amount matey
to a fourth than a fifth of the whole number; and
the satistadion I feel is more than doubled. when I
reflect, that, in preferring their claims, I do trot of
the smallest injury to any one, apd if I can Foet-
suede the House to grant that to which, to my
opinion, they are so fully and justly entitled,
I am sure it will be d.iing a great and most
essential . service to the country. It will, per-
haps, be somewhat difficult to choose with what
part of the Petition .to begin. . Some persons
may imagine that the number of persons who are
interested in the Trey ion, Are deserving primary no-
tice; and it 1 had not heard it from the most un-
doubted authority, I mold not have believed that
so large a portion as one-faur.h of His Majesty's
European sulajeds are at this moment labouring
under restrictions and disqualifications, in marten
to them of the greatest importance and moment,
the full and free use and benefit of which all the
rest of His Majesty's subjects enjoy, without-any
abatement. Before I enter upon the dire& matter
of the Petition, 1 beg leave, Sir, to say a very
few worts on the general principle of rights, and
to explain my opinion thereon. Whatever differ-
ences there may be on that head, I believe they
will, when fairly considered, he found to be more
in words, than in Get, that we differ theoretically ;
but that what we all call ri;bts, are pradeny
pretty nearly one and the same. Timm arz two
modes, Sir, of considerin r- rights, and of appre-
ciating what is doe to each.' I mean, Sir, the rights
of subjeds, and the rights cf Governments; and in
speaking of these, I consider no doubt the rights of
the governed to be the paramount of the two ; and
one of the most essential benefits that can result
from this, is that all the subjeils of every Govern-
ment have a right to equal laws. I admit, Sir, thet
the legal maxim or adage, sales pcpuli turret) is k ,will
make some slight alteration in this doctrine ; hut it
has been laid down by several very learned authors,
who have written on this subject, and particularly
by Dr. Bayley, that the original right of a Govern-
ment consisted in doing every thing within their
power for the good of the people ; and the right of
the people is, that they shall not he restrided in any
thing necessary to the general weal. Thera are,
unquestionably, exceptions in particular cases, in
which the safety of the country is at stake, or likely
to be hazarded. In arguing on this, therefore, both
parties ought to state the point candidly and fairly.
Some persons may perhaps say, they would give
this to the Catholics as a matter of poiicy; I say
directly and positively, I would give it as a sight ;
others may say the very reverse, and refuse to give
it at all. I wished therefore to say these few words;
becausz, as it must be a question for future consi-
deration, I have endeavoured, in the outset, to
shew, that the difference really exists more in
words than in fad. With respell to this, as applied
to the Catholics, I think it an undeniable p ,sitior,
that they ought to be on an equal tooting sii.h the
rest of His Miije,ty's subjeds, where placing them
so, is not injurious or hurtful io the welfare of the
State. 'There is then perhaps a dui.rencc as to the
degree : some might be of opinion, that it should be
less than I would allow ; others may think the sate-
ty of the country should be first. I !latter myself,
however, we shall sot go into such shades of dif-
ference, but meet the sohjad in a fair, candid. cad
manly way. The Ropan Catholics had ortgavaly
rights the same as other subj.-ds, but Govenunses
has since thought it proper and necessary to abridge
them. Whether GuliCllll2l,:nt was right Of w:01,1
in doing this, is a roes:doe at the :iresern moment
not necessary for ere to tini.uss. I need not
state, in this part, that mere is Sio prescription
for exceptioas and restri4liun4 14, wear.!, in fad,
be a solesism in

poluic.l regsoning, ta sa7