The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1821-03-17 00:00:00

CATtIOLIC CLAIMS.

On the Order of the Day fo► the second reading
of the Bill for the relief of the Roman Call:dice,
Mr. PLUNKETT rose stud said, he meant not to
trespass for any length of time on the attention of
the House. Since the resolution of the House he
had been gratified at leariiing from that part of the
country with which lie was brat uequainted, that the
proposed measure had met with approbation more
universal than his most a auguine expectation had
led hiw to look for. 'Flue Him. Member for So-
mersetshire had done him great injustice, if he had
imagined that lie had euterteilied the chitne-
►ical notion of givinz satisfaction to every one.
IVith a certaiu class of opposerahe had not a single
idea in common ; hit cordld not agree with them
in every thing ; they lived iu a heritage of
their own, oil which he ►houlcl not encroach ;
when they found the measure would not interfere
with any one of their comforts, that the Protestant
Ascendancy was ►till ►afe, they would rise in the
morning perfectly cheerful and happy. %Vitt) re-
gard to the appellutiou of big-t, he appealed to
the House whether any individual bad been less
lavish than himself its the use of such terms. To
the errors or prejudices of Pretestasits, with whom
he happened to differ in opinion, he was conscious
the greate►t respect of deference were owing. The
prejudices and errors might be on his side--and lie
declared, on the word of r Gentleman, he should
be ready to yield the moment he should be con-
victed of mistake. On the part of himself and
the persons with whom he bed acted, he de-
clared they had proceeded with the most anxious
deference to die Plutestants—not only looking
to real dangers, but to their apprehensions of
danger. They had referred to the prejudices
and feelings of both the Protestant and Catholic,
and had endeavoured to reconcile both to the
common goad ; and. shove all. they had made it
a principle that uothitig should be yielded which
wes really urce-sire for eecuricg the P►otestant
estabbslusent, and that ecilmig should be withheld

VP,P•WIPTIriWrr7I,4

which was necessary tor securing tsie tree exercise
of his religion to the Roman Catholic. That dis-
position of the people of England, so favourable to
the measure which the Hou. Member for Somerset-
shire called apathy, he considered as the coolness of
reflection, they were desirous that justice should
be done, and were disposed to leave to the wisdom
and discretion of the House the mode in which it
was to be effected. He thought he was bound in
the first instance to set himself right with the House
as to something which fell from him when he had
before adlressed them. He had then asserted that
'dons:ion to fraischises and offices of State was the
right of the Roman Catholic, and he also asserted
that exclusion was spinet the principles of the Bri-
tish Constitution :he would re-assert it. In the
same sense that the Protestant claimed the eligi-
bility to office as rights, so also did the Roman Ca-
thuhC but he had never *rid that those rights were
not to be controlled by necessity or the exigencies
of the State. Shew any expediency or danger, and
the Roman Catholic must yield as well as the
Protestant ; but if the rights existed in one case so
also they did in the other. Where did the Pro-
testant find his right to vote or sit in Parliament—
tit what charter was it contained ? He knew not
how he derived his title, except in the first elements
of the British Constitution. How did he apply
this to the argument ? Thus: the Roman Catholic
complains that by a certain Act of Charles li. he
was excluded from certain rights; he acknowledged
the authority of the Act, but he said it was foutid-
ed on tin accidental circumstance; it was meant as a
substitute for a Bill of Exclusion; but the Throne
now being filled by a Protestant Prince, and the
danger being gone, restrictions and exclusious ought
to cease also. If any danger sloes now exist, it
ought to be shewn by those who advocate the
other side of the question ; but true it is that
the danger is ?one, and the Roman Catholic
denies (the danger being gone) that there exists
any constitutional ground fur excluding him.—
As to the question of Protestant Dissenters, which
was much discussed on ■ former night, he should
soy, that if no danger existed to shut out the Ro-
man Catholic, he was entitled to admission. If
the danger of shutting him out were great, and
the danger of admitting the Protestant Disseut• r
were smell, then on the ground of expediency he
could not be kept out. As to the edutission of the
Protestant Dissenters, when the qUebtiUll arose, it
must be discussed on its own grounds. lit order to
chew that the question of die Dissenters and the
Rumen Catholics were perfteily distinct, he would
phew what was the•state of that question in Ireland.
There the Protestant Dissenter was not subject to
any test,,istid had not been so fur 40 years. In
1780 au Act of Parliament passed relieving him
from the operation of the Test Act. With respect
to the Raman Catholic, he was excluded; so that
in Ireland the admission of the Protestant Dis-
senter had *not involved the admission of the
. Roman Catholic, and the adinisviou of the
latter would not, therefore, necessarily in-
volve the admission of the Dissenters in this eosin-
' try. The words of the Act of 1780 were precise
'mid &fluke, and stated that the Protestant Die.-
*Peter should not be hound by the sacramental test.
In 1793 au Act passed to relieve the Ronson Catho-
lic, and it was enacted that he should not be subject
toasty ether distrodificettun than the Prote-stent• were
liable In. What then occurred? It was argued that
the Act of 1780 had relieved the Protestant Dissen-
ters, but had left the Protestants subject to the test,
and therefore the Catholic must he still subject to
That was the argument, and a Bill we totroduvect into
the I risli H rinse of Commons to explain, and declaring
that all Protestants were exempted, which would have
left the the Etonian Catholic free. The Bill went up
to the House of Lord., and was read three times
in one day, but the little word " not" was introduc-
ed before the affirmative proposition, and so amend-
ed it came down to the House of Commons, who
passed it unattiniceisly.—(4 lough.)—That was
the manner in which the Roman Catholic in Ire-
land was kept subject to tire sacramental test, and
thus what was ititendt d for justice was prevented
front taking place by the track and managetneat of
those whore interest it was to pievent the measure
being operative. The Bill now before the House ,
comprised two distinct objects: That which re-
guided the declaration against Transubstantiation,
cud the alteration of the Oath of Supremacy.—
Oa the first head he never set met with any our,
either clergyman or layman, who contended for the
propriety of retaining the declaration, which was
equally injurious to Christianity as to the coun-
try. That declaration confined theta to two tenets,
but that was Italy a small portion of the differ-
ence between the Catholic and the Protestant,
and should any change of sentiment take place in
the Catholics on that head, there would still re-
main the doctrines of Purgatory and ouriculer con-
fi.seion. The measure was imperfect as a preventive
from Papists getting into that House, as a Papist
might comply with the Act, and afterwards declare
himself to have dotieso for expediency. At to the oath
of supremacy, he was curl,' ised to have heard it said to
be iticoovistent with the Catholic religion, because,
anterior to tire Reforitial ion the exclusion of foreign
interference was perfectly complete. In the time
of Henry VIII. a man might be excommuoicatsd
for takiug the 'Mb of supremacy, and Limit for
denyiug transobstentiatiots. But even in the time
of Philip and Mary, the first Act contained a saving
clause of all Acts prior to the time of Ilenry VIII.
As he had conformed, in a great measure, to the
admonitjon of Qestieu Elizabeth, lie would detain
the House • few minutes in reading over that ad-
monition. It stated, that as many or her Alaje-ty's
Roman Catholic subjects had objected to taking
the oath of supremacy, supposing it to contain all
acknowledgment of her Majesty's power and pre-
rogative in spit itual matters, which could not con-
scientiously be yielded by them in consistence with
the duty which they owed to the supreme (lead of
the Church in what appertained to matters of reli-
gious belief, her Majesty would be contented to
accept the taking of the oath, with an understand-
ing that nothing contained in it should be con-
strued to have rely other intent, or to impose any
other bond, than such a pledge of allegiance as
might be reasonably required of all subjects, and
such as had been ackuowleged to be doe to the
rovereignty.of the realms in the reign of her royal
father, Henry VIII. nod of her most noble and
royal brother, Edward VI.; end dust her Majesty
forbad all her subjects ftoso giving credit to those
persons who should caution their fellow-subjects

I

rot to believe in the sincerity or her intentions,
thus openly declared, touching the interpretation
of that said oath of supremacy. As her Majesty
peremptorily disclaimed and denied the posatesoon of
any authority in the church, other than had been
possessed for centuries. by the Sovereigns of the
kingdom, and she never would nor did challenge
any other superiority or power in reclesiastical affairs
than that which was rendered to Homy VIII. and
Edward Vi., which was and had been of uocient time
held to be due to the Imperial Corals of these
realms; that was, to have sovereign rule and au-
thority over all subjects wheresoever burn within
his Majesty's dominions. The admonition (attic!)
the Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman
went on reading) also stated her Majesty's claim to
so much power iii the ecclesiastical parts of her
government and kitigdom as should frustrate the
assumptions ofany foreigim (rower to hold any domi-
nion over her'subjects, which could be construed to
weaken her clams of allegiance to bur throne, and
obedience to the constituted authorities of the
realm. Beyond this her llajesty exacted no proofs
of submission, and would consent to accept the oath
of supremacy, these conditions being comptind
with such meaning as the persons taking it might
choose to affix to the import of the words of the
said oath. The terms of this admonition were
adopted in the 5h of Elizabeth. These terms, he
need hardly sat, were hostile to the interpre-
tation which the Right Reverend Vicar of the Alit,.
land District chose to pet loam that oath; but he
confided in the good sense of 11. e Iletise Gar adopt-
ing the conciliatory spirit of those limes. Ile
would take the liberty, t:.ough iie feared Iw:4lolll.lls-
tigue the patience of :he I to read the exiikt:i I-
lion given by Bishop But het or the oath, the admoiii-
firm, and the Act with attic!, the adinunUioli was
iticurporated. The words of that leateed and vir-
tuous Prelate were, " fly Cie Queen's care !o
take army all words of reproach, and to ex p 1 nit the
0..1, of supremacy, not only by taking awry all
ambiguity in the words tnemselvese but calling on
all her Catholic subjects to explain the sense of the
oath as it regarded her spiritual atrthosity in such
manlier as to their minds should seem latst, the-leis)
did the great inlideration of her reign appear." Such
was the understaialing of the Go% eriiment of those
times with respect to :he oath of supremacy'. From
this it was manifest that the scheme of the liefue-
motion was a scheme ofcompreliensioii, l:ut the mo-
dern doctrines were a scheme of iarrowlit,s and leas.
clusani.—[The Right Doteand Learned Gesitletnati
read Oil to the end of the passage, tracing the rise and
progress of the religious heats and dissentious of
the tones of Bishop Burnet, from the failure
of these gracious endeavious on the part of
, Queen Elizabeth's Government, to the machine-
twos of some of the Roman Catholic Clergy in
St.. Omer's, who bad at length succeeded in esta-
blishing a popish party in the kingdom), *Welt had
tip to that time (the time in *hick thslieua tiornet
wrote) kept the kingdom in almost constant torn-
motion.) This was the state of things in the reign
of Elizabeth, and these circumstances Would be
sufficient to exPlam the pobey df that reign. Pe
would next read the explanation of 'the oath tit. su-
premary, as it was contained in the 37th article of
the Church of England "The King's Majesty is
the chief power in these leashns.uuder whom it field
the chief government of all the estates iu the resin),
ecclesiastical or civil, so as that none holding place
or authority therein shall be held subject to any
foreign jurisdictiou," &c. " When we attribute
supremacy to the King's Majesty it is not in a
spiritual sense, as having power over matters of
religious belief or opittion, but only as a pretoga-
ties given to all Princes by God himself to govern
all the estates of his realiu with righteousucas and
justice tinder God, and to restrain all evil deers,"
&c. These were the terms of the articles of the
Church of England, and they were consonant with
the admonition. These were the terms, therefore,
with a view to which the explanation of the oath
contained in the Bill hail been framed. flis first
Bill enacted, that " Whereas by certain Acts
passed in the Parliaments of Great Britain and
Ireland, the oaths of allegiance and supremacy
therein provided are required :o he token for certain
purposes therein mentioned, arid the said oath of
supremacy is expressed is the 1.011,1Wi11, WOrliS :"
[Here follows the recital of the oat O.] —The lb II weld
un—" And whereas his Majesty's Homan Catholic.
subjectsiu Great Britain and Ireland hare been at all
times ready and desirous to take the said oath of
allegiance in common with his Majesty's other sub-
ject.. but entertain scruples with respect to taking
the oath of supremacy, so far as the some might be
construed to import a disclaimer of the spiritual
authority of the Pope or Church of Rome, in
matters of religious belief; and whereas it ap-
pears from the admooition annexed to the in-
junctions of her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, pub-
lished in the first year of her Majesty's reign, and
sanctioned by the year
panted in the 5.1 a of her reign,
entitled ' Au Act for the assurance of the Queen's
regal powers over all estates and subject* within
her dominions,' that such disclaimer was origi-
nally meant only to extend to any such acknow-
ledgment of foreign juriolictioti, power. supe-
riority, pre-eminence or authority, as is or should
be incompatible with the civil duty and obedience
due to her Majesty said successors from all her
subjects, both as to the jurisdiction of her Court.,
end the maintenance of her authority in 01l the
estates of her realm, civil and ecclesiastical. Alit'
whereas a legislative explanation to that tit: ct may
therefore be properly and safely given and de-
clared ; hlay it please your hlejesty," end tl ea
followed the enactment.. The !lilt had brew trained
with a due regard to the-moist remote appreliensiens
of future danger to the establishments of the coun-
try. lie and his friends who had framed the Bill
had adopted the form of words which he hail just
read. They did not insist on the absolute pro-
priety of the terms. If the Bill was suffered to go
into a Committee, the terms of it would be a pro-
per subject fur deliberution. If any person could
submit a better form of words, or one which
would more satisfactorily tie the boundaries of
civil authority, while it left the spiritual liber-
ties and tights of conscience belonging to the
Catholic part of bra Majesty's subjects unmo-
lested, there would be ample opportunity fur so
doing in the Committee ; any such proposition
would be entitled to full consideration. All he
asked of the House was, not to look at the subject
with the eyes of metaphysician., of casuist., or of
critics, in order to find out if, by itostibility, a case

•

could occur in remote rulthily which Ironid be
likely to render the adovtion of this measure
dangerous to the Constitution or any of the esta-
blishment. Let them try it by the comtuon-erose
priiiript; of how fur the rights of conscience, with
reopect to matter. of religious belief, miLht be ac-
commodated, with Out incurring thinger to Ai
said ecclesiastical authority of the Crown. He went
on to desci ibe the dimwit of the Bill,
adopting the recite!, wrist on to lhe'etaiiiigiatiou
of the oath* against trenrohstnatiation.
" And whereas by other Acts of the said la;;liisinisitia,iie.
lain other oaths and declarations, ruinously eathatirte
and declaration semisoft Transubstantiation, as OM oath
and d,claration aganist Traissuhsiaossiatiusa sad Popery, nuol
avini4 the belief of Trausubaismiation, the (sioestsou.,
the Virgin Mary or other Saiulr, and the focrifice of
Mass, as need in the Church of Rowe, are roluircol ,to 1 c
lakes as qualifications for the satin) ment of ei-n4ip Ram
franchisee, and civil rights. And oh 0 Ott aagl last.
ibentioried oaths and &thirstier:a relate solely to mantra of
opinion' and rtligions belief, *ad do nut in 'is, wise
late tai, alfces; or interfere wish the stlegiance or civil duty-
of hos Majesty's subjects, and may therefore property and
wkly be abrogated. Be it therefore farthertmelett abtf
derioreol, That such parts of the Acts b.r.ia heroic meth
(boned, as require any deciarstioa or deciaratioas to b~
nisei saltiest Trausub.iantiation, or the biota:anon of the
Virgin Mary or any wiser Saiut, sir the i•nerihr:e of the Maw,
be, and she same see hereby absoutuorly reps-sled, sod swell
(belts-mica's shall au loupe hr ten.kred or rrqudred to he
wade by virtue or is 'Aeration of the solid Acts, or any of
okras."

He slated some verbal alterations which he meant
to pronto in thin and the socreerling rinser+
a And he it further enacted amd declared, that from and
after the s other (1411116 shell be tendered to, or
required to be taken by his Mejeatly's. Roman Catholic Sub-
jects within the duntioions of lon Majesty, for enabling them
to tale, hold, or eojuy any civil right, or any real or personal
prow rty, thaw ran be tendered to, or retrireil to be lake*
by, his Majesty's other subjects within his said duutipitess."
The House wee aware that by an Act of the hag
reign Catholics were enabled to eucceed to landed
pooperty from which they lied been .disisti.led :by
Acts existing previously, which Acts disabled theist
by name fair being Papist.. They *ere centred
om throe disabilities, but still it wow hot tkeeet4
wry for them to take the Oaths of Alletiadife inn
Supremacy to succeed to tattled propetly. There
ass got oath preicribed by the Act which mum'.
ed these disabilitim If he work' rellirl upout
to frame •ei Act of Paeliament, and left fate as to 1114 Mout-
Mous of it, be wuh:d nut dictate any oaths ienling to eels-
blush distinctions, uhith he ionsielesed tiselers if sot oat.
thou.. But be was, of course, to be booted by ratasiderationa
as to what *mild be most acceptable to tae House. He
would out say that all the Catholics afield at once be in-
duced to lake the oath of supremacy, weih the ereplaustion
to be gesso to it by this Bill. Some Might be inclined lie
suppose that this explatiation would not be neeirat as a ge-
neral understanding, or that the oath so to be taken with such
meaning, in the mind of the party t-ltriig U, ..1 might bear
avec with his cuusciertiw r belief of the miespretatioa of
it, in respect to matters of religious belt. 1, would at Se
sufficieat to relieve him froot the disaliilitte4 to which he was
subjected ; he had therefore pre pared am additnenal clause,
which, after eneeting that any prrsuo, being a Roman Celina-
he, and beeps desirous to later the said oetkoralleg twice sad
supremacy, shall repair to tiny of the Cou:la of Westmioeter,.
or of Ireland, or any other Cuerts is Scotland, or other
Coatis or places of juri.dictiws is the several parts and
divisions of his Majesty's dominions, es *twill, d in the
warding of die clause, to fake, mike, and subscribe to the
said oath, between the hours of nine in Me ,moraing
and two ia the afternoon, sad shall ilo4e take and
subscribe to the oath, or make Ins mark, if unable
to write, the said sulk,cription being then to he placed
on the records of the Court. The clatise went on to
declare that it shall and may be lawful for any such persona
taking and vabscribing the said oaths, to remit.* of the
officer of the Cutest tendering the said ortthe, that the Mid
Sitiplaoatioo of the oaths should be rued to him ere viously
to bin takitie, making, and subscribing to the said oath, and
the said officer bring so requited to' end the explanation,
should be bound (a read It accordlaely. The oath of su-
premacy had LW been taken by any Catholic Mace the pa, s•
hog of the 30th Charles 11. It mesh/ strike at Sr. of
the Catholics, who would be willing In take the milk, with
this explanation, that their taking at at this gewsole period,
might require justification; but the oath need only be rakehe
by those who were incline-A to adopt it, with this explsaa-
tion, whit I left their consciences at l.be,ty. It wou!d, oat
deed, strike the minda of I re •pettabte Members,
whose dread of she mischiefs likely to gestalt from this
measure, he was anxiona, as far as possible, to con-
sult, that there was a Vet, effectu•l oath already ap-
pointed to be taken by the Catholics of Ireland.
He did nut like any division or seyalatiou of the oaths,
because they created improper distinctions. He had, there-
fore, from cousidering the character of that oath, eudea-
vain ed to make the oath of allegiance and supremacy, by
his BM, as effectual as possible to the Catholics, autl at
test as effectual to them as to the Protestants. He
was ready to yield uu any of the poems which be ha.'
captained to the !Luise, to the suggestiuna of Honoarnb:*
Menibers alien the Bill should go to the Committee. He
!red endeavoured to describe to the Ileetv.:e the endure of the
explanation contained in his Bill, and to point oat the ',ob-
jects which be and his Hon. Friends htvl in view io framing
it. The next consideration was as to the exceptions mintaiii-
rd in the Hill relative Pi particular office.. These wire, the
office of Lord High Chaverllor, Lord Keepre of the Privy
S ...k, Lord Commisaioner of the Great Seal, Lord Lieutenant,
Lord Deputy, or Chief Governor or Governors of Irelauel.
41,,y other exceptions which might be dee med advisable
could be added in the Committee. The reason why he
thought the exceptions write far enough was this—that Las
fit to he excepted would in the working of mats male
their lawn exceptions—the securities fur shift were
•licitly provided in the power of the Colima sad the
good sense of the country. This they might be certain or,
that the Crodu would mate tbeek of up/minting a Catholic
Prime Minister, except his koowo menus suit superior W.
leots would render it a circutusiauee of regret to the country
that he should be excluded (row the opportunity ef serviog
his country. Adverting io the argumeet of Mr. Peel, that
Catholic Lawyer. ought to be excluded from the Beath,
bream..., thought they should do justice in the fairest
and must emescientions onStiner in which it could be
shre, that yet the Protestant mind would not be easy
out ilia subject of sock demises, lee confessed, with all glue
respect fur the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the argument
seemed to Lim to want weight. Would the Right Hen.
Gentleman candidly consider the consequences to which his
own argameat would deice him? Did it not ran to this If
the Catholic Judge, milling out the bench with Protestant
Judges, who could control and rectify has decisions, artsahl
not be able to justify the minds of Protestant suitors, what
tight had they to rapcet that, with the exclusion of Ca-
tholics, and the total impossibility of any Catholic dodge
being admitted to the Bemis, as heretofore, that Catholic
suitors should be satiafied with the decisions of Ptiatestant
Judges? He was satisfied that the seats of justice were fill-
ed by men of as groat virtue and wisdom as could be select-
ed ; and he was also certain that the Catholie subjects of Les
Majesty had the stoat perfect coofideoce is the (corral
administration of justice. He could not suppose that
there would be less confidence iu the Protestant mind
than the Catholics possessed as to the purity of the
jurisdiction of the country. lie concluded this branch
of his subject by detailing the remaining provisions
of the Bell as to the Uuiverselin and their offices,
from which Catholics are altogether excluded, and after
stating the liabilities of Catholics to be tile same as those of
Protestants, and to be like the latter, removable by the An-
nual Indemnity Hill, he proceeded to the consideration
of the second Bill for the regulation of the intercourse of
persons in Holy Orders with the See of Rums. He would
first maintain that there was no existing iurouvenience
which could be stated to have arisen from that intercourse.
He would be bold enough to say that although that

luterecense had existed sines the Reva!ution, in no one
instance since that time had it been used fur factione
or political purposes. The Pope Lad always hitherto
held the right of appointing the Bishops. In no one in-
stance bail the Pope been known to exercise that right. He
admitted, however, that there might be a reasonable appre-
hentioa of danger in the minds of many good Protestants
which ought to be satisfied. The Bill had provided fur that
danger, whether it existed in idea or reality. He had
Lentil great difficulty iu determining un the means.
At first be thought of establishing them in the mode
of nominating the Bishops ; but there was great va-
riety of opinion as to the best and mat proper
mode. There were three different courses of nomitia.
t uu which had beee adopted at different time. oue was
for the Bishops of the proviuce to nominate; the second
was for the Dean and Chapter to succeed on the occurrent..
of • vacancy; the third was for the parochial clergy to
nominate. All these we.t to the exelusien of the au-
thority of the Pope. Ireland was indeed fast rising from
that state of dependence on the Papal authority to which
she bad formerly submitted, and might be looked upon
!is be in the same state of public mind es England had
been jest pinions to the Refoomation. The Pope hail so
more esteem' over the Catholics of Ireland as to the Opine-
station of their Bishops, than he had over the appoint-
torahs of the Protestant Bishops marl Clergy of Eug-
laud.. , hla. bail framed • clause, however, tu beerfit the
siraples of all dame who bed doubts or fears us the
subjret,ohi.:h prescribed au.oath to be taken by all persous
iu teltgiouts orders atavism Deesslun to hold any iiit-rcutiese
w .the See of Boner,• that such intercourse should be con-
fined strictly to ecchrstasheal snaliers; ii ran thus .--
•• I, B do sweat, that I will never concur tu ur consent
to &e appoirateient or consecration of any Roman Catholic
Bishop, or Deane or Vicar Apostolic, in the Rumau Catho-
lic Church to the United Kingdom, bet such as 1 shell con-
seitottuusly deem to be of unimpeachable loyalty and peace-
abbe mouluct ; and I do swear, that I have nut and will
sot hive any correspondence ur Communication with the
Pope or See of Rome, or with any roust or tribunal esta-
blished ur to be established by the Pope or See of Rome,
or by the autharity •f the seine, or with any pinion or
persons authorised or pretending to he authorised by the
Pope or See of Rome, leading directly or indirectly to
overthrow or dieter") the Protestant Government, or the
Prutestauf Church of Greet' Britain and Ireland, or the
Protestant Church of Scotland, as by law established, end
that I will nut correspoird or eummuaieate with the Pope or
Seco( Rusin, or with any tribunal established or to be este-
blerlied by the Pope or See of dome, or by the authority of
the same, or with any prom ur menour autherizid or pre-
tending to be authorized by the Phpe oe See of Rome, or
with any other Foreign Ecclesientical authority,en any mil-
ler or thing which may interfve with or affect the civil duly
and allegiance which is due his Majesty, his heirs, sad
successors, from all hisssubjeets"
He next came to the mode of appointing the Catholic
Bi-
shops. The Bill of 1813 required that a Commission should
be soma I na trepan of the Crown to inquire into the charm-.
ter as to luyahy, .and ini forth, of the parties nominated fur
s.caut hissopricks, and no vacancy was to be filled up until
the Crown had rxpressrd its •pprohatiois or disapprobation
or the nomination. He had myelin. d this provision, and
c,.114:11.n in his Bill that the party should be eligible, mid
the notuitiatiou shoed proceed. if afier a certain time the
Covet, through its Cutramiseiunets, should send in no ex-
perineum of dreepprtival.,) He believed that these condi-
tions would Le cheerfully salseeitted to by the Catholic clergy.
At to the statement (tithe Right Hun. Gentleman (Mr. Pe. I)
respecting the dispesiiion of the Catholic clergy to comply
with those ceedittears, the Right Hon. Gentleman had, though
not wilfully, led the House into • delusion, by inducing
a belief that the clergy, in 1813, had objected to a measure
,similar to that which be bad suggdeted. That declaration
w Inch he had read did setrituy lbe right of the Crowu to
Lu satisfied as to the uonsiwatiun of the Bishops ; it only
went to mei Mgt it was contrary to the discipline of the
Catholic Church lo determine on each • subject with-
out commilltig with the See of Rome, and that other. ire
ILey wer•iu danger of perpetrating schism. But abet were
the facts? Timel had consulted the Pope, and his answer
ass, that there was nothisig inconsistent with the Jiscipliue
of the Church in the proposed regaletious. The clergy Lad
open this seceded to these regulations. It might be that
they were nidefialt before that period, ete possibly they hod
rcolaiond against them, but not since. Th. Right Hun.
Gimlets& eoid, that when the Catholic Clergy of Ireland
would come fierward and avow their inclination to accede to
those meeposed regulation., that thee, and not till then,
would lie believe in their concurrence with them. Bid it
was not respectful to the Catholic Body, it was still less re-
s;iec.eul to the Legislature to require it to go about among
the aut:jet:a of the Slabs canvassing fur opinions on
its sera proceedings. They were to do right and fear uo
~stip/ewes. At first he had thought of domestic owning'.
tionottaieb retold have satisfied his own mind; but on cons'.
&ratios, he found that he could not adopt any measure of '
that character without disturbing the lutes eel arrangements
and management of the Church. He had therefore deter-
mined uti adepting safeguards to regulate the intercourse
with the /fee of Rouse, and to have a control in case ef De-
malty user that influential power which such • body as
he Eishopr of flit Catholic Church must be supposed to
hale user their c.ingrcg .stiouts. He eseressed his auxiely
with ell proper regard to the thieves, supposed or
dill, which Ilse Constitution might incur from this
uteamire, to legislate ou the must equitable sod liberal
scale, because he trusted that they were about to cline
this subject for ever. They had a right to provide ureic.
rifles against the influence of a Poreigu State controlling, in
some measure, the trffaiseof so considerable a burly of clergy.
wire right to anke *nth Oroveritm, but they should out
he made au at to excite a jealous feeling in the Cathulies,
tint they weir no rely stipulating fur one advantage at the
cur! astd sac,ihice of another. He hoped at the same time
that the Howie would Mot he led to suppose that the (rem. n
of the 11th had beep OW disingeituoes as to leave out those
sureties *Cell* the ally nature of the Constitution would
require in ittela a case. Ile assured the House of the whet-
lade which had induced them to do every thing with a
view to settling utiailitne us assent to the measure. He ex-
persoed his readiness to accept any adva.slage which might
tit left by the Bill, after the strictest mudifiestioos whir h
should be thought isecesssary in the Committee, however
partial reek advantages might be. If, fur instance, with
ferpeet to legit appoinenseuts. the Bill 'tumid only lease the
priyilegeof eligibity to Cathulic Barristers to be appointed
Kieg'a Coronet, lie wunld out refuse even tint Won. If
it wily at et to put English Catholics upon the canto
as hash, he would accept it, though that
would his en been a! all tu the Catholics of Ireland.
lit hell elmweim Hie form of two Bills, as being more sena-
title ; but he caps issed his w MinnaA to roesolidete them,
if the Cummittee 'tumid sus deride. There was one wpm tu
which he adverted; be meant the prevision uh'sh it was
purposed to make fur the Cathohcs. The lion. and
teamed Gep:letnau opposite, who had given uotke of nit
:infraction of this astute to the Committee, hut of whose
amities he was unacquainted till to-day with the circuit:-
eiances,fell fright ly. peebaps as to the propriety of providing Air
.lie Catholic clergy. tut he questmueil the propriety of the
tatition. He realty thought that this Bill, which ass a era-
sure to vesture Cathieics ru their rights, inlett tint to lie ac.
compound with such cpcslitiusis ; because wben this mea-
sure cants to monk on the mind of the country, it
"mall operate much better with the consideration that it
bed passed as a matter of right only. Neither he
nos- his Honourable anti Learoad Priced ought indeed
10.0 attempt that subject of establiabing a provision
tot the clergy. It would lead to a suspicion that the clergy
had sacs diced the hale peni!ence of the laity
ie secures provision. He dAI out think that there was any
one whu could sake such a prupueitieu without being speci-
fically aoluoised su to do by Goverinueut. It was taking
fruit tbe Crewu an usrportunity of exercising that grace sad
and format winch it was the prerogative of the Ciuwu
flour la dispense. Thee. were facilities fur carrying this
• AAAAA in; which aml amuse before existed. Queen Lino-
both was well dassamed to such a ptau of coaciliatioti, but
her satentions were frustrated by the machinations of lareien
pumice, amid the general turbulence of her reigu. Tare
erector... 4 her immediate 'MeV Sayr. acme not inure Lemur-
able to sach a purpose; it had so bappeued that when there
were Kimmel)* on the throne disposed to conciliate the
Catholics, those Nlutiarclis were supposed out to be eery
sell 2(1161(.11 to the cuuuuy. The reign of Charles I. had

pal en end to all hope on the subject, and no good
opportunity had offered itself, at least none equal to the
present, fur carrying any such measure into effect. He
wished to state one fart before he concluded. Before the in-
vasion of Ireland by the English, there existed in that coun-
try a parer system of religion than in England, and one
which was entirely free from the corrtiptions of the Roman
Church. Popery was aciimify introduced into Ireland by the
English. He admitted that the soil was ready to re.
ceive it, soil that it had become very prolific since. But
su it was, that by the time of the English Reformatiou
Ireland had become a completely Popish esthete,. The Re-
formation worked well in England, and, aniseed by the reign
of Henry VIII., outworked the old religion. England had
before that dislodged the old religion of Ireland, and set up
Popery, and since that period had beta as earnest to dis-
lodge Popery without any cousidermioa of the lentioaable-
nes. or practicability of the operation. The Irish
had been frequeetty instigated by their Chief. to return
to their yid religion, *bile on the other hand their
unfeeling conquerors had made their adherence to
Popery a pretext fur diepoiling them of their property and
estates. But wli it hail heen the coaduet of Catholic Ire.
land f the Revolution down to this day? In Srotlauil
there had brew two rebellion's in a century. In England there
had been many civil dissentious sad attempts at ri hellion.
Out there bad bees. no rebellion of Irish Catholics since the
Revolution. The rebellion of 1688 wane pruiesi•el
It was organized by the Pretestaies of the nerds of Irela,sd.
Again, in 1796 the whole of the organized discontents were in
the north of Ireland From Dublin to Cork, sod all over the
west, these was slot one InAll found in arms. Ile concluded
by expressing an ardeut hope that the House would not rob
itself of the opportunity, nor the CIO% 11 of this gracious
occaathu, of awakeuieg the itrimgeet ficeiegs of gratitude
in the weds of hte Majesty's Catholic subjects for allow-
log them to rally round his throne, sad give their hearts
and waste their blood iu givieg amenity to his e/overtimeut.
He moved the Order of the Day fir the second reading of
the Bill.
On the motion that the Bill be read a second time sow—
Sir %VW. Scut's' obs.lried, that after the Bill
had been preseided and circulated umunget the
Members for some days, and after thie, that Ilia Ili.
lion. Friend (.11r. Plunkcii) had made some
alter-
ationa in it, which lie:, with tell the attention he must
always give to whatever fails faun his Right Hon.
Friend, could not coaipletely understisnd, he
could not discover the two aistinut propositions, cud
11:! would appeal, to the appreliensum of those around
him, littler they precisely usidevotoost die manner
us which the Bill was now prispomd. Ile would ask
whether it would not be advisable to bring its a Bill
containing all the alterations cu,„;gested? These alt.-
rations appeared to him to b. 2 of such magnitude
that the Bill could nut be Downied its its original
Aim. If Po, then what course was to be pursued ?
Wa. the fissuor to &sews a Hill that had partly
been abandoned? Ile would, therefore, wish to
know from hie [tight Hon. Fiiend, whether there
were any other course lie could suggest ?
Mr. Vim NKET'T was extremely desirous to satiary
the doubts tit his Right Friend; but lie really
did nut think tise alterations of that magnitude that
they appeared to Isis mind. Ile might have adopt-
ed the ordinary coarse of moving that the House
shoul,l go tutu a Committee; and when asked what
course he should suggest ? he said, no other. Its
consequence of the House bring crowded, his voice
might not have been distinctly heard, and his
Right Hon. Friend tnisittitlerstood him; but he
certainly made no alteratnois, suds us could have
struck the mind of his Right Honourable Friend
so forcibly.-1 Hear, hear./
Mr. BANKER then rose. He was for some time quite
inaudible iu the gallery, in comsequence of Members gutug
out. He coufessed lie was surprised to hear doetriues
broached on this question, Slot unlike those radical rights
nod
.lAiversat rights supported by others, ill whom he
knew the Gentlemen who supported the- present pies-
Imo were hostile. But it was his firm upiui 111 l , that if
the Catholics felt a siugle spark of respect for their
religion, they must naturally feel desirous for the destrue.
lion of a considerable portion of the Constitution, the Pro-
. *imam Church.—(Hear, hear )—He hoped be should out
be charged with a spirit of bieutry for thus speaking his
sentiments openly, fairly, and firmly. For feeling as did,
lie should de-ert his duty as a Moldier of Parliament, and be
guilty of the deepest treachery to the Constitution, if he did
sot speak his seutimeuts opeuly.—(ififear.)—He imputed no-
thiug to the Catholic reeigios but what the Catholic Church
arrugated to themselves, and gloried its. They maintain
the sole integrity of their own faith, and the fallacy of all
I others. They held nu communion with all others; and
consider salvation absolutely isupurenble for coy one out of
the pale of their own church. lu fact they censider all
others, as the Pope would say, liable to be excommunicated
between Christ noel Raliol.—(//err.)--And the Geutleinen
who support the Bill, although they do out gn the whole
way in his fear", still they must entertain some fears, or
why give securities at all? If there be that iubereet right
iu the Catholics to those privileges, why make any distinc-
tions, or soy exclusiun sit all? Ile conceived, that greeting
I the claims now demanded would be attended with the most
fatal consequences. For what would be the consequence if
Catholics got seats in Parliament Oue hundred meet, or
even less, leagued together in that Howie, could do a great
deal of mischief. They may, moil perhaps will before it is
very long du so. A hundred melt hulked together ism that
House might effect almost any object dor wished; and he
would ask, whether it is not in the power of men of great
we•ltts and property, if disposed to do su, to send into
nay one Parhaiuent Member. to that amount ? No.
thing could he snore absurd or foolish as to attempt
to legislate for futurity, nor could he ever repose with
'meanly against the datirers with which he saw himself
surrounded, on such miserable securities as were offered.
He had heard the Right Honourable Cieutleniau who
bronglikfurward the measure say ainnething about now end.
ing the matter, and shutting the door against all future
alitation ; but was it possible for a men of his torte of mind
and habits of reassming to eutertaia such au opinion when
hr perceived the line of conduct 'emoted by the Catholics
after every concession; they are never tired of graspitee and
every fresh cusicessieu you give them was but a step-
ping stone to climb to something more.—(l/ear, heir.)—
And was it likely the Catholics should be itirliffereut urn these
penile nu which moist others feel su lively; he meant their
puuperty. C.erthiisly out; and whets these concessions were
granted to dig m, they would aeon begin to grumble about
supporting a Church which in their hearts they abhor.
thee, could the Right Hon. Geniientao consider this as a per-
neinfut measure? There was another point to which he
wished to advert ; lie meant the proposition of providing
fur the Clergy. The Right Honourable • Gentleman de-
precalrd shot measure as premature, but the lime would
tome when it would be ailvissble. But he believed that
the Right Honourable Gentlernaii nor nobody else might
give themselves the trouble fur if the Bill once passed
you giro the Catholic Church the power of providing fur
themselvec—((leor, hear )—la it so be suppose 11 that the
people of England would not rumplaiss of supporting an-
other Church establishment •! But supposing sisal bolls the
Bills passed, and that they are trj•rtrol by the Clergy, what
then is the conageteace ? They .mild be then la this siitsa•
lino—they give the Catholics the power of sitting ia Parlia-
ment, they provide for Use Cntliutie Clergy, and then they
say, they cannot agree to the Security lath. You pita.
Slit Bills—you great the privileges—and then you are left
witliont any securities at all. Ile considered the extending
the elective franchise to the Rumen Catholics as contrary to
all the principles of sound policy. It ought either to be
granted in the fullest latitude or nut at all, asset if it ware
possible that it could have come to be oiscossed iii the
English Parliament at that lime beMoutel ceriently have
voted against it. Then It may be milted, why ant demand
the repeal of that law ? Sorely that was no way to :ogee.
Mauy thine ace greeted whirls are iseitidicieus, but still
they cannot be welt taken hack, and this was one of his
greater; objections 0 the yenta: ineathre. He utsjeeted to

Ihe union on the same principle, blecante no matter what
was the consequeuce of it, it cuttlil not he repeat
" Quoddadi, rului, quad reliquiens est, eon demo;'
am] unless you give the Eatbulies every thin they tail never
be satisfied, our feel any gratitude. Notting will satisfy
them but seats in Parliament; until that is granted to them,
you give them mollies' they will think worth accepting.
What the effects of such a euncession would be, he eude '-
retired in the sincerity of his hetet to explain, and lie hoped
sincerely the good stow of the House would protect the
Established Church and the constitittiote from the dangers
wi tie which he feared they were the remotest. —(llear, deor.)
Mr. WILBERFORCE then p.m. [We reeket exceediugly
that the very deprave; meaner in which be was occeeitmally
heard in the gallery, prevesito us from doing that justice we
Omuta swivel to his eloquent With]. He commenced by ob.
serving, teat altbuugh he coull slot agree with the Hon. Gen-
tleman that just sat down, that removing the distbilitles
under which the Boman Catholics at ',tested laboured, did
at all affect the vital Misread of the constitution, yet he
frankly cifitlemed that be hail lung redertained strong &Wilber
un the subject ; bat it remained fur the wisdom of modem
limes to discover that of all the persecutions that were cv, r
inflicted, persecution for religious opinions was the moss foul-
isle and trucked of all—(Hear, hear)—fur is proportion as
you endeavour to suppress these opinions, in precisely ihe
same propurtiou will they increase. He was free to admit
with au able writer on this 'abject, that if there were in a
Governineeit suffievent power to extirpate all other re-
ligious opinious but elitist of the elate, then indeed
there might be some sense its perateution. Hut if
you live tie • country where every thing in the grubss
and cheracrer of the people is averse to it, to adopt such
• Ilse in is at once absurd and impracticable, and nu-
thing can tenthly be inure anomalous than' to endeavour
iu barinowier perseeetiun acid the Beitieh Consiiediun.—
( Hear, hear.)—We know full well the enelaucieuly resume-
qiiences of this beei•fiel system in Ireland Ireland! Ire-
land! die very mention of that eater is calculated to awaken
sighs slid sympallees in every hmase that is not cold to the
feelings of humanity, for the burg and erne! sufferings she
has eeterett.—( Loud cheers)—lt was at the peeintl when
that forlorn cuuairy evjoy, d the •ppellatiten of the.' Mother
of else Sable" eud petit:me no country in the wurli was in
possession of greeter virtues, Mat she became Ibis prey of
thy conquerer, •ud was hastiest over to cessliseatiu• and
opmessien At the gulden era of the Revolution, the
Guverioneni of this country acted memo's Ireland like
au uneatenl step mother, and Mimed of being her
protector, became her oppressor. Trace her history
from Mat period to the priirot. Take away the reign of
Amite of George I. and Genie I I. %I lien we reflect we the
unjust treatment she remittal hum England during them
pet weld, can we wonder that Ireland should look with abhor-
reoce oil ever, thitig British?—( (fear, hear )—At length we
began to awaken (ruin flee delustuse and to grow ashamed
of the laws that hail been passed. It is true they had
a Pa. hament in Leland, but they bail uo free deli.
Iterative power; and suet, was the system pursued
thole, that whets any men was too preflmate here, he was
sent to Ireland to be provided for—(Hear, hear.)—At
I, teeth the Parlientele hersuie indepeudent, and substqaeut-
ly dm measure of the Union was ea...sled, by which the two
countries, Intended by Gott-and nature to be united, each
being too ;merciful 10 he indepem eat of the other, were
bound together eu uneesneved tic. He remembeied the ern.
timenis of his latitervied friend, now YU More (Mr. Pitt), en
the claims of the Catholics. lie slid out think he ever heard
him state that the atheuscioet of Catholics to power was
the necessary consequence of the Union ; but he hal
it on his recollection that lie •tid, Hoes that the 100
coined** are unite) ip tole indissoluble leedy, the
Catholics haves right lo entaucipatime, and it can be geauted
with greater security to this Country; uuJonbledly he sin-
cerely wished fee the seem. of the measure. IVutbwi
could be inure impolitic and iodide Mau In keep tht Calker-
lies in the steuatium in which they edam' at present, and
be knew iir smelting thud eunlil be devised to create die.
cendent and dime, beoce II emi keeping the Roman Catholics
as 'bey now demi. We knew the Catholics are detly *rives-
clog in wealth, and power, and consequence, and 'bat it is
impossible they 'Mould remain for ever iu their present coo-
sleben. It 'Mould therefore be our duty to invite them to
participate in the blessings of the Constitution ; they have
hearts edapteel to the reception of &dish freedom. and may
safely become the depo.itofiell of riSslitleitt wirer, *loch,
*briber safely or not, they must one day obtain.—(Hear,
hour )—For you cameo! slop the progress of wealth, which is
every day Haematite% and must naturally produce pewee.
Nothing could be inure unjust than these exclusions. Look
to the profession of the bar, iu which a MU is generally
the artificer of his uwu fortune. He is placed iu a st•t100
to see those around hint. No matter alias talents or groins
be *my possess, no matter whet may be the extent of his
knowledge, or the purity of hits character, be is doomed-to
witness others, perhaps 'shuffles,. merit, pass him by on
the road to fame, he is excluded front the honours and dis-
*McCune of bus profession by these acts of injustice—these
misplaced penalties.—(Hear.)— Let e he Catholic* ioto Par-
liament, and then if they have any microliters to complain
of, they have the proper mode to veil. redress. He wan uuc
*ribose that never was afraid of granting them seats ir Pat--
hamlets!. If • Catholic, or any whets wire po d of bad
feelings, ho would merely wish to bring them into that
House, that they might learn to correct tittle errors.
—(Mitch chearing.)—Advil the Catholic to Parliament,
sad Ito will learn to estimate the blessings of a free
country, where liberty is protected by law.—(Hear,liani!)—
It will elevate his mind, expand his ideas, end liberalize hie
feelings. Aud if there be any of that servile obediesee to
the pasture of flocks still reinainine, be knew of ou way so
effectual fur removing it as by lilisnntisyl hitA into tliat
House.—(/leaf, hear.)—Let the Constitution have (air play,
and its gates be thrown open, aud the Catholics will leant to
awesome, the dignity of their own natures, and to longer re.
mails a set of narrow mittiltel Loud chaera.)—Edw-
cattua,with all the blessings that follow in its maned now hap.
pity spreading to a great extent, mid also i• Ireland, and the
more the minds of the people of that country are iurormedebe
more will they learn to abhor and execrate that risen(' of co-
ereiusa midi/evasion that has beets unfortunately acted *pun in
Ireland..—( Haar, hoar )—lf his Hon. Friend conceives that he
eau but protect the Established Church ou the ground he
now occupies, he must say that he feared he lulled himself
into a false security. The Protestant religion was • religion
that did not derive its origin from ancient imposture; the
more it MILI investigated and explored, the Inure must it
be revered 4itel ieriptcled. It hail dr feinidadon in trite mo-
rals and national happiness,. There bate been undoubtedly
many Catholics ornaments to Christimity slid to humau
oa-
lsre—the illeserions Parra!, the immortal Fenelon, of
whom be might almost say, he was a satut bent down
emu Heaven to enlighteu and improve maukind by the
nuttiness of his wisdom and the efficacy of his example.—
(eecering.)—He therefore thought that if the Catholics
were entauctomed, instead of viewing our religion with
abhurrence and iou, they would lerok upon it in a very
diffrrent manner. 'Fliey could not, while these restrictions
existed, yield to conviction, lest their chatter millet be •t-
--iributed to unwerthy or mercenary motives. These dim;
bilities then were alike itijuritess to both the Protestant mod
the Catholic iutereet. P. rare-mem was oely productive of
au alienation of wool. Three disabilities are but the relies
of e. lung course of oppression, out of restriction, but of
degradation. It is iu fact wearing the prison suds when at
large. Ile would tlserefute sly, give them she British Con-
seitution—give them the Chrirtian religion, and you will iu
the course of • very few years perceive the happiest results;
for it a not in the order of human thugs that a generous,
brave, a bash-minded, mid grateful people, would remain
ioseserible of the favours bestowed on them.—(Hear,
heard—lt is a curious eirtumstance to observe the thettue-
eine betweeu the two routetries. This is iu fact • country of
law. Every individual, high ated low, is taught and accus-
iumed to submit his conduct to the !awe of the land teeth
the most perfect coufidenee. 'ties is the ;Needier character.
rustic of the people of this minify, and be looked Olson it
as one of those happy circumstances ansougst many
others that have raised this country,so highly favoured above
I all oilier.' to its present Is.sppioesn. But, uufortsauately, how
different is the ease in heeded ! there the people have, by
long habil, been accustomed to aim at resistance, not obe-
dience of the laws. Burt he had no doubt that, when they
come to enjoy the !lineal effects of the Coustitutioa, a
great deal of that acerbity which sometimes appears in
their characters would be removed, sod the smite of grata-

tilde would beam on liseir countenances—ff./sari Ater)—
' Therefore, notwithstandiug all theicaution with which he ap-
proached the question, and as many of his friends well knew,
although it was a lung time before he could be induced to
change the °pill/01111 he hut formed on the question; )et, now
he felt (oile contideot that the course now proposed is the
tru• road so the security of the counity. It will strengthen
instead (..f weaken the religion and institutions of the
country, and Will leSiOre their jest rights to a brave and
geurruow people, to whom we owe tame llama gratitude Cad
repay for the sp!eudid glories they have assisted MI to obtain.
The Hoe. Gent lemsn concluded amidst loud applause.
Mr. H. BATHUHBI' rose, bat from the noise its the
House wit were not ab:e to hear Lint.

Lord CASTLEREAGH requested that his Right Hun.
Friend might be patirutly heard on a question of antis great
inepoitanee—the country would uut be satisfied if it was nut
fairly and patiretly digressed.
bk. B. BA'I'H U UST said, that in his opinion Hon. Mem-
bers bad cutifoitudid She civil and religious rights of the
Catholics together. The CalholiN of Ireland had obtained
She elective franchise, then what was the cause of their dim.
content? they formed only She smaller part of the empire,
and they were fully represented by personr Iselooging to the
Church, which forentd • part of the Slate. He did not
know how a esthetic representative could defend the Con-
stitution as it stood. Gonad of the Church and State.
The Right Honisurable and Leatiord Gentleman by his
Bill did taut pruptiae that Catholics at the Bar should
arrive le the highest office of their profession, that of
Lord Chancellor, which admitted there was only to
• certain eattnt that cotireasien• ought to be made ; theta
would it n 4.1 be Lotter, if they could not ga the *hula
leogth, to stop slurs they were? Time Right Honourable
Gentleman, in a speech which occupied a considerable por-
tion of Limo, bit hum the re.tvated cries of " Order. or-
der !"—" near, Aear r was teaudshie itt the villas', res.
eluded by moving that the Bill should be read a oecuud time
this day six
!11r. WI I.llElt FOR E explained.
Mr. M ETCA IF E supported Site Bill.
_..._._

Sir JA 11 ES MACKINToSH said, it watt rust his intro-
ties} to go into detail to answer the argumeuts of the Right
Honourable Gentleman who bad spoke■ last but two; it
would be an act of fully, as they had hero answered by lips
flaming with the greatest eloquence for the last 70 years.—
What induced him to rise wall to call the attention of the
House to the charge which had taken plate in the situation
of the Catholics within the last 4 years by the Act of the 37th
of his late Majesty. By that statute all former oaths taken by
Catholics It. the army aud navy were abrogated; then as to the
army mot navy,Catholica a ere oxem pied from taking !Itemise.
'riven Ida •rgume•t was, that if the army and navy were
officered lay Catholics, what would be the Mager if they were
excluded from Parliament and their civil rights? fur as the
law, uuw stood, the Duke of Norfolk could not hold the
office of a Jostice of Ware. What had been the policy of
the Conditarliou to open the dimes of Parliament to mili-
tary aml travel officers? It was fur tie other purpose than
that they might have ■ strong interest in upholdiug the
civil establishment of flee mouthy. A standing military
Corre a; any time, in his opiiiieu, was monstrous; but if
they took away hum them their civil rights they would
make theta moth dangerous. All armies were the enemies
of operative deliberat big assemblies; mid what had they been
doing? giving Catholics the right to hold the highest office its
the aeut", •tad telling them they could nut hold the lowest
uffice in the Slate. It was putting them in a worse situation
than the solily of James II ; fur accurding to the present
system, the military were placed at war with the civil power.
li there ever was • contrivance of folly and of (letter, lhia
was U. had been always of opinion that military and
na,val officers ought to have seats in that UMW, fur they
ought to make a part of themselves. They were now told of
a eiew policy, that their gallant soldiers were not to partake
of any civil rights. He would tell them they were bound to
attach those to the State whom they had raised to the highest
situadons in the army. There was, no fen feitute of the
Cruwit except the person claiming it was • Catholic; thirst
why tray the Protestant religion was •ttaehed to the State ?
Would it nut be better to thy it was ant i-pupish, fur it might
be held by a King belonging to any other sect besides a Pro-
teetotal, of he was not • Catholic? The Constitution of
England existed long before the time•.( Titus Oates.—(Hear,
hear.)—He had heard enough of Titus Oaths and his pre-
tended Constitution. Let them ce him that would
for his Protestant Constitution; for his past tie would
sooner applaud the deeds of a Reuell or a Sydney. Ac-
cording to the speech of the Hun. Member for Coale Castle-,
the Protestants ought to be proscribed iu every Catholic
country. The Hun. Member ought to arruigu the Congress
of Vicuna fur equalising all religious sects in Germany,
Russia, and Prussia; fur in none of those countries did a
man's religion incapacitate lout from holding civil taro
He had, in fact, come 200 years too lam with his logic
—(A laugh)—for before the Act of Toleration, aurae.
thing like that held out by the Honourable Member,
might have been adopted ; but he was suiprised after
near three centuries of refurniatiuts lie would set
up his theories against toleration, It seas not for him to
rescue the character of Mr. Pitt from the attack of his
Hun. Friend, the Member for Carle Castle, who called his
Act of 1793 au Act of folly; but if there were nut persons
more capable in that House, lie would take it on himself
to defend Mr. Pitt from the attack of his Friend, for the
Honourable Member bad told them that he thought the
strength of the Church depended un a divided adminietra-
-11011 ; but lie fur one did nut wish it to go out to the public
that the disse•tions of the Cabinet were the support of the
Church. The Church of Iri laud depended wily on the sta-
bility of the Government, but the Clioreli wf England and
Scotland had another dependaure in the affections of the
people towards them. After forty years of civil war in
France it was silenced by the edict of Nautz, which restored
all persons to equal rights in the State. This was the remedy
taken by one of the greatest and wisest Monarchs; lie was
told, if he only granted one concession soother would be
asked : he then, in his great mind, granted them all at once.
Yet the Hon. ,Mesriber for Curie Castle held up his opinion
against Henry VIII. and Sully. The Hon. Member said, all
that the Cathul.es looked fur WWI political power. Was it
to be wondered at that she Duke of Norfolk should like to
sit in the sat of his ancesims? or that the Earl of Shrews.
bury, the de►ceudaut of the Couquei or of Agiucourt, should
wish to be in possession of his political rights, •ad to have
political power on an equal footing with his fellow Peers ?
The Right lima Gentleman opposite (Mr. R. Bathurst) ask.
ed his Right Hon. and Learned Friend to produca o resolu-
tion of the Catholic Prelates of [edited that they would
obey the commands of the Pope relative to this question.
Such a resolution was quite mince sssss y. as it could not
be more so than any counia in the empire issuing a reso-
lutiim that they would obey an Act of Psrhiameiit passed by
the King, Lords, and COlllllllOO4. Although he eves a into.
her of the Church of England, he admired Diesenters, as
they were the that to propagate religions fereiloni, awl lie
was convinced they would continue to du so by conceding to
the Cethulics their civil rights. He did nut wish ti, speak
lightly of those who opposed the claims of the Catholics, or
the abolition of the Slave Trade, but he would say, that
those who had slivers concurred that the claims ought to be
conceded, ►ad the preponderance of the talent sad iutegrity
of the country. It could not be a prepouderance of injustice
■od error ; if it was, be was happy to have beets one that
had been guilty of them. The Hon. and Lessened Member
then sat down amidst loud cheers.

Mr. PEEL slid, he rose under considerable disadvantage,
as it was his intention to take what was called the un-
popular side of the question ; lie hoped, however, be world
be patiently heard, for it was a subject of such vital im-
portance, that the country would out be satisied st the re-
sult be what it might, without it was discussed fairly, can-
didly, and impartially. He believes' the arguments which
the Houourable 6eutleusaa had addressed to them that
night, to show the inconsistency of the preseut situation of
the Catholics, were nut entirely new. He believed they
were the same which were addressed to King William, and
applied in a similar manner to file State of the United Pro-
vinces under his domieien. 'Mere the Catholics were ad.
milled to commands is the army, but excluded from offices
to the State ; and it was asked of him why be did nut remove
that inconsistency ? to which be answered, '• that lac thought
it would be extremely hard and unjust to raclude from corn.
missions in the army meritorious Dieu, who, by their exer-
tions ansreereices, bad proved themselves worthy of ober,
merely because they were Catholics; but that, rebid* the
Government was is the heath of a Protestant Sorereign, it

• • t' wa7 •• 0 •
WWI not safe lo aloft Catholic, We, the elliff#lAl,ollllW
its 'fairs." Bat when ea late as its IBM ther,74eisall3thia
fur the Prolesteet Eetablishisent rendered them labseße. fif
the admission of Catholics to any place of anthalty ese cifeir
toted connected with it—wbeit they relaxed fru* dieiilt-A-
Man, and consented to the Act which e, sea the =atm
the Cathelier, little did they snippiest that the entee• rs
sons arrive when that maven 11 would be made tlergtowell
of further demands, and •eirged as an argereent in seaport of
new claims. Bet was the view algal the Hmr. Geut. bed staves
of that measure and its effects, the view which a as eutertuinete
by the Administration of 1807, when they purposed a treasure •
utterly 'loather ? The Right Hue. Galantine here praeredost
to read fano the Speech of Lord [Nark us that ocearlete e.
passage, in which his Lordship said, •' They had thongle atop
inieht bring fainted that inearure enthuse encuunteratgase
opposition with which former proceedings ea f f Hie
Catholics bad beeline% because it 16as a qffe.tites-widthyaliwe•
Duct its its mature, and nut at all iu•.,lring llic Reiterate
principle of Catholic etustiripatiou." If, thew, he wuwitimoh
at a later p. nod, the Goverunseat of 1817, reiltug iseiou situ
arguments and professions thus pet forth, eureentsel to thee
measure, was it fair now to come down oils's, nom and u•
it as an areuenent far further maueseinuis ?-(CAters.:s With e•
spent to what hid been aside"( the altered feelings of the °our-
try on the eu Nen, it was title, as the Houuseralele Gentlanam
had stinted, that for serves years they had been silent too-
evening it ; but he world beg leave to monied the Hose
Gentleinan that it was only seven data sure these Bills weir
printed, and it was premature to refer to the 'Once of the
country as an argument of its acquiescence, wrtbnul waitieg
until it had bad au opportauity of becoming acquaiand
with the eiet•re of the proposed measure, and etpiexairng tts•
°pirate). The Right Hun. Hentleinau wiser istroducest the
present measure had accused him of • desire to offer abreast
and stigma upon the Roman Catholics by these caelatenous ;
but he bad only wished, in referring to Newer persons, 41,
chew Stint a distinction lieJ been drawls betwom exclusives
(coin office, sad the indicliene art- pmeidament for rel...
gives opinions. Denying, as he dui, the right'. 'bleb
the Right Hon. Gentleman aserrtee, of ai;ustasion in
political power, he yet considered political exclusion M mss
evil in itself, ao,lraetrdly considered ; fur it was impossible
not to adapt that it operated as a discouragement to lauds bee.
and generous escalope for the public service of liar country:
Whets be admitted this, he aim admitted 'but ixeseenot
sufficient for hint to substantiate it by reference tome:ern*
laws, unless lie shewed as actually emitting sreceasityelmt:
their continuance. behind was so fruitful a field of. eft\ -
meat uo the subject, that be should throw the comae/ as..
tirely out of consideratiou at present. The question thee Ma
bite to consider was, what would he the ace' of these laolis
beteg introduced into Ireland, coupled as they mere wielr
the maintenance of the Protestant Church ? The arguenems
of the Right Hun. Mover was, "Skew me what are. Hu
dangers to the Protesting' establishment whirls you appose
heed; there can be suite at any future time, whecte
not exist at present, sad against thrm Leger you securitote:',
What then was the stature of the measure which the Hiplet
Huse. Geutleivali proposed? It was to give to the Rieman
Catholics every qualificatiuu for power; and vest only an--
qualification, but in goose cases the actual posseasioo of -U.
There were three cases its which putter was aCtwllyEiveu
to the Catholics by this measure, which be cueseidered,
as attended with considerable danger. The first war-sl%
privilege, in virtue of property, to vole at pariah waiftatei
By the existing laws the Catholic was d. bet iesl from eietinf
at a weeny onetime use questions relatiug to the tor
pair of time church, the salaries of the pariah edfiners, mod Hin
appointment of churchwardens. This these was one piavilagn
Watch would be opened to the Catholics, amid [ruin wine:*
the Protestant llirseuters sere excluded. :flay would then
admit the Catholics, who were to the Protestatite in the ff.,
portion of five no use, to the power of volley uu the repent
of the Kitten:tat chinches. %Vithuut imputing to the human
Catholic ony principle ethic's be would himself be &thawed.
to avow, lie did nut hesitate to say that danger a as neturally
to be •pprelweided its this t air, when such a power was cool
(erred on them Pa the prupurtion of five to one. These wad
another power conferees' no the Rumens Catholic, that of eat,
mission to ',Mee, which was of a very different &setae, duet
would be depeudastt ou the will of the Exieutire Gus
verement ; but when the law was passed, he cousideredi
it would be incumbeut on the Executive to give a bonaildit
eiTsct to she intention of the Legislature. It would there-
fore be ustural to expect that the admission of Catholics
and Protestants in place* of trail, warts bear; fate Mee
portion to their relative numbers, ie which case the fiereneie
must acquire • dangerous prepotederauce. 'them (AMC ail
admission to Curporat tuns and to seats in Pail:ametit ; and if
all that had been mid were true, of the growleg wealth and
numbers of the Catholics, the danger of this puaer was Lou.
obvious. The Right Husi. Mentherinuceede.l to observe opou
the advantage which the advocates of dee Catholics lead in
the matured' the argumeul, from the radium so vivify and ge-
nerally excited against au exclusive system of any kind
which, on his side of the eueetien, they were _necessitated let
depend impute plain statements of fact. lit Ireland there weevil
100 Nlembers elected to serve in Parliament; and there exist. 4
in that country a popular form of election whisk was trot
known here.-84 Members ae e retururil fur the 32 rutin:
ties ; pixleeti were elected by boroughs, wh ci were some-
what of the nature of what were here called close borouglisi,
sod the remaining twenty were relearned f OM large tows
vivre the franchise was almost as open as iu the count:an.
Thus eighty-four Members were returned from places ether e
Ilse franchise was general. The proportion of-Catholic els our:
to the Protestant he took to be equal to that of the cetera'
population. Eighty-four members, therefore, out .of one
lassudied, would be returned by a body of elevate of which
the Catholics were five to one Prole gent. These gin...-
would be subject to two kinds of in( • • .
of them uatural sod just : first, the
and concomitant with that-was the

lord—and although the latter iuflueucs
cf Protestsuts' yet that was much thrallinfluenceminance of influence in a resident over
landlord. It ni glut be said that

great anra•ure possessed of ibis po,
twitted tbal they were so, but tutu t
to the medium through which it
the law which provided that the Rei
by Homan Catholic electors should

resprct to the jealousy he felt of
if:oiler, if the Constitution were looked

be fuu'ud that wherever power we wisu
ibis jealousy was manifested; sod JulTg
himself ado, tied the principle, isi ‘icle be
prapused. He proposed to exclude . , office of
Judge In any of the Ecclesiastical Cour, ,silly obustAl thir
Catholic he ex. laded from that office, Wallies StisC the cir-
citmstance of his religion reader him uofig to iliFei:s.:ge it
•
dories? Au Infidel might bold it; a worshipper of Inpiterl
• wuishipper of Osiris; a worshipper of the Ma of Hoar
ven ; a worshipper or all the creeping things of the seta
might hold it; but by this Bill a Roman esthetic maid
not. He mentioned this to skew that the Rt. Hoe. Gent. hill.
*elf admitted the principle of jealousy ali:ch le
.trratsusbill
for, and that they only differed as to the velem' or OA
•pplicati:sn. lu 'fah' would the presmislc of the Bill ovate,
that the Protestant Er tablishrneUt as to be pc liallitslit mid
inviolable, if they admitted the esthetics iota Pas !bimetal.
When once in that Huuse, a Catholic might take a different
view of this question, be might seek to rrisealthe law, asitrisenr
could it be prevented, whenever their humbeis pr jabot.
euce should reuder them equal to the aAtirapt.' Regolalitsuf
were now proposed, whirl, were deemed 'lsecessary tor Al
maintenance of the Protestant rerigiou ; lout Le Linsay be,-
lieved, that if they were' passed at this time, they male out
✓emain hi existence five years.--He could nut kelp thinkitig,
that one of the first attempts of the Csiliclits iss Parlismeec
would be to repeal this law; and be could mot see why Ihey
were to be blamed for it. The Right Huu. Spe Ike( krticred4
to illustrate bit argument by the cu-oper st.uu of fish Mew-
berm of all parties iu measures affecting the interests of Ire-
land, mid of Scotch Members, when Seutleud was concerned.
Men in such eines would always consult the p r.tieusar in.
terests in which they had • stake; it eilgtit out lie luite in
the spirit of the Coast 'town, but it was petP Lily fair ass
every principle ..f huroau nature. Ia civets where the m-
itres% of the Pioiestaut Chorch in Lela rd w-s con-
cerned, he elioold es pert to ere sloth J C.llllt 11141006,
..ii ' mod V. thought it might be expects() to •ucess !
e thought the eassener in which the oaths wer• teratest in
lithe Bill highly dangerous. Is alluttiog to the sweotoestlif
Mr. Plunkett, nu the sommaly of odo441.141• Cafirehe Mil-
Bistrate by um form of oath, sad then casts:lig a net:stout

• .

WM

- -311

ote.tant. The", tie' tors
nflueuer, which we. e LA
c influence tif the pri, •ts.
e influence of the ism.-
uce was partly cis the hands
thrniuislied by i i arL....:
-._ ..
....4111
over that of ay`
the Cutbuliet . a If
rower at pre . 1- .
I they siert I 4, a
was to be 1' ...zi;:tatd, Itir
tti ,
rpreseulatisi I. be CitYlC:ll
1 he a Ppite.tunt. trith
r extectibut puu cr to Ca.
oohed ilirrdacts it woultt
ras bestut•ed, there elsu 1
ici the It litra.blurer t
a the securities which tat
le thew (rout the o4tice or
Courts .Wlly shuritl th•