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London, England, 1804-06-16 00:00:00

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went. Sore Cettlemee said, it would tot recruit
thb regular army ; in answer to them, he would
:der to the time, when the English militia had vo-
lunteered their services for Ireland—and when sever al
regiments went to Holland. These two remarkable
events must convince any man, that we could al-
ways get men to enter intq the regular army, from
cur limited force, whenever it should h: necessary.
A Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) bad ob-
served, that men would not enter into the regiments
of the line, to which their battalions were attached,
because they might dislike some of the Officers. So
far was he from entertaining such an opinion, that
he was convinced men would enter from the very
contrary motive. From the experience he had in
military affairs, he knew that suhifers were in the
habit rather of entertaining a partiality, than a dis-
like, for Officers; and if they had a dislike, he
knew the forgiving temper of a soldier to be stich,
that even a sentiment of dislike would not prevent
him from entering a regiment. He wished to im-
press upon the House one quality which belonged to
this Bill ; it was that of its tending to ameliorate our
defensive force. Officers of expel tense were to com-
mand the force to be raised by this Bill, and that
would add considerably to the strength of our home
defence, and enable the Government to employ the
regular force of the country on the Continent, when-
ever an opportunity should offer for co-operating
Kish any of the powers of Europe against France.
The plan of recruiting laid down in this Bill was
certainly the best mode that could •be adopted for
recruiting the army. All other modes appeared to
hi:n to be nhje9ionable in time of war. It had, be-
another material advantage; and that was,
the doing away the ballots; so far from being a bur--
then, Le considered it an•aUeviation of hunhens, on
the landed interest. it timeshare met with his cor-
dial approbation, , „ .
There wat: now a lotidgerf au polies, fossilise."

- •
Mr. 110BlIdU 'sett it -w.ls a very material
object to encrease tha regular. force of the country ;
and it appeared to Issialusarielsof all sides to do so,
to tile greatest possible extent. The necessity of it
was fully admitted , and the question was, which
was :he best mode of promoting that objeft ? If the
regular army could be encreased at all by this Bill,
it must be by a very slow progress, by that kind of
double distillation which a Right I Ion: Gent. had
mentioned. When it was contended that some
strong measure was necessary, a measure should
have been adopted adequate to the force of that
necessity. If the danger was great, and the ne-
cessity strong, he thought sonic other measure
would have been resorted to besides the present Bill,
which, he was sure. would fail completely in accom-
pli4Ung the objea for which it was intended. By one
clause of this Bill, the parish officer was authorised
to give only three-fourths of the sum allowed as
the ordinary bounties for noruiting. But the Com-
manding Offteer had the power of giving the whole
of the sum. This regulation would at once put an
end to recruiting in the manner proposed. Men
would not enlist with parish officers, who could
give' but 151. when they could get 201. from the
Commanding Officer. Then the parishes must
pay this fine of 201. if they could not get the men.
They certainly would never be ab'e to get them on
such terms, for men would always consult their own
interest, and wait for the largest bounty. Another
objeaion he bail to this Bill, was the double bounty
men would reccite, if they entered into the Line ; no
man would enter into the Regular army, without
first passing through this Army of Reserve, he-
CAMe of the double bounty he should receive.
ft was nor, therefore, to be expeEted that men. could
he peocured for the Regular .army, except by a
very low process ; and the measure could produce
no benefit. But it would be highly in:eitious to the
landed interest, upon which the fines laid on parishes
must ultimately fall. (d bed eirk,for 14e ticstion).
Mr. PITT said, that without precluding himself
from the opportunity of delivering his Loath:nem'
some other day upon this Bill ; he hoped he might
now be permitted to say a few words, ha order to
sat the 1.-lon. Gentleman who jest sat slows right
upon one topic which he had advanced. He bad
rested one of his ohjeCtions to this Bill on a suppo-
sition, that if parish officers should not he able to
find men for a given sum, the recruiting officers
would b.. enab4d-to give a Luger sum. .And from
this he drew a conclusion, that parochial recruiting
would he rendered completely ineffeetual. If the
Honourable Gentleman would take the tioluble
to look in page 13 of the Bill, he would there
'find, that so far from its containing such a regula-
tion, the recruiting officer could only give such
r^
proportion of the 201. fine as was fixed as the
stated bounty by His Majesty's regulation.—
This very amendment had been made in the Bill on'
the preceding day : and the Hon. Gentleman would,
on the present day, have heard it read, were it
not for the accidental vote which recently took
pl.tce, and which threw a temporary hitt' tuptiod in
the way of the progress of the Bill. Let the lion.
Gentleman now turn to the clause in the Bill, ind-
ite if he were sight in his statement.
Sir ROBERT ill ATON said, he defied any
Gentleman to show one tenable argument against
die second reading of the amendments, or any tea-
son why they should be put off for three months,
die eirea of which would certainly be the loss of the
Ell. I he amendments, in fast, which were now
objected to, made the Bill better than it was before.
It was said this Bill would operate a: a heat-, charge
on the landed interest. He would say, for himself;
that his property chiefly consisted in land; that he
had applied his mind to the stibjed of the landed in-
terest ; and he now wished to know what plan of
national defence could be devised which must not
impose a burden on the landed interest ? The plan
would be no more a burden than any other ; but it
would confer a great benefit on the country ; it would
be conferring a boon on the country by freeing it
from' the hardship occasioned by ballots. He wished
Gentlemen to see what a ballot Was. It was neither
more net less than an infringement qn the liberty of
the subjeact ; and he wished to ask those Gentle-
men, wto had talked so often and so much about
libertkia'
wbetlwr there was liberty, justiceor equality,
ha fo a poor man tp.serve as a soldier, when
tee ridinain,. by a son of money which he did nut
make,. capidstsflnapt. himself *or* service by procur-
ing a substitute, or paying a fine ? As to the objec-
tion against recruits being raised by parochial
officers, he must sae that no men appeared to
him latter calculated to perfartar such a shay tban

•
they; because they knew hatter than mesh peo-
ple could do, the charades s nt the p, ogle In
their parishes. This objettion, as well as others
that had been made to the Bill, were such as
had never before been heard of. On the preceding
day it had been objeaed to one of the elauses of
the Bill, that military officers were to be sent
down to assist at the meeting of the Deputy
Lieutenants: So far from this being an objeaion-
, able proceeding, he must say, that having often
titled as a Deputy Lieutenant, he, and others who
ailed with tom, were always happy to have along
with them a military officer, from whom they could
receive information. He would venture to assert,
that no one plan had yet been offered that would
fall so lightly, or be so little objeaioneble as the
prier:tit.
Mr. BURROUGHS rose amidst a loud call for
the question. He said, he was ready to admit, that
this measitre could not, in a short time, snake any
considerable addition to the Regular Forte of the
country ; but it was not the (skied of the Bill to do
so immediately. Its °lira was to raise second bat-
talions, which were to be attached to battalions of
the line, into which the men belonging to them
' might be induced to enter. It could not now be
the objet of Government to increase all of a sudden
the regular disposable force of the country. There
was no necessity to do so • for, in the present .de-
graded state of Europe, there was no hope that any
of the continental powers would co-operate with us.
in a continental war against France; therefore there.
was no necessity speedily to increase our regular
force. The object now was, to raise a force that
might add to our standing army whenever oc-
casion should require. so to do. Now he
wished to direct the attention of the..lleuse
to onegreat benefit arising out of this Bill ; and that
Was the-doingaway the ballots, which exposed the
poor to greet hardships. It was one of the severest
lots to which the poor 1,11 been subject. With re-
gard to the objeaions made agaiust standing armies,
be believed a. reference to the hi :tory of this coun-
try would chew that these objeflions were, in a great
degree unfounded. It would' be found outethat
England had,often been exposed to greet danger
from the want of standing armies. And if the
constitutional jealousy of English Men agairk stand-
ing armies had not been carried too far, the
country might now have a complete tegular
army, fit for every purpose of offensive or de-
fensive operations. Considering the enemy we
had to contend with, it was necessary we 'should
have a regular permanent force in the country:—
That enemy would watch his opportunity, and take
his own time to attack us ; and he would most as-
suredly avail himself of the first moment be found mil
disbanding our army, or diminishing our force. If
a great regular force then was necessary, the conti-
tutional objettion against it must fill to the ground.
Bat that objection was done away, when it was
considered that Perliamei had an unusual con-
trout over the Executive Gee ernment, and bad the
power of refusing to pas. the Mutiny Bill,
without which the army could not exist.--
Such an ol,;eCtion, therefore, when urged against the
Present he considered as nothing better that an
hale bugbear. it had also been objetted, that parish
officers would be converted into crimps by this Bill.;
and it was said that they could not obtain men with-
net the assistance of crimps. 11,. %weld answer,
that parish officers, who knew the habits of the.
people in their perishes, would stand a better chance
of ptoctuing men than even recruiting officers.
against whom the people always entertained
a Jealousy. They were surely the most eligible
persons to be resorted to, 'Aimless they abused
dick power, and if they did, the courts of justice
were open to the injered
,parties. He would iok
whether it was possible, by'simple recruiting, to get a
large force in a abort .tune ? And if it was. be
would ask, why was it necessary to pass the Army
of Reserve Aft last year ? Let the present experi-
ment be tried as a Ins objeaionable mode; end if
it failed, the ordinary bitsiness of recruiting still
continued cpcnoas it had done before. By the present
plan, great bounties were to be done away, and
' more men were likely to be peoeured. No assertion
could be more unjust than that this Bill would ope-
rate as a trap to get men into the.line. kle was con-
fident so such attempt would be mice. With respea
to the hardships said to be imposed on Parish Offi-
cers, he had to observe,' that when every thing
dear and valuable in the country was to be protea-
ed, it could not be unreasonable to give to Parish
Officers the additional duty of contributing towards
the means of national defence (here there was a cry
of " question," and the lion. Member was inter-
rupted by the eau:Aims- of several other Members).
sir. Burroughs concluded with giving it as his opi-
!lien, that the plan contained in the present Bill was
the best mettle that could be adopted le increasing
the regular force of the country hereafter.

Mr. C A ItTW RIGHT. said, he was in fivour of
the Bill, because it. would -remove burdens from
the lower order of 'the people. Ile wished well
to the Right Honourable Gentleman who brought
it in (a lead blaze). However he might wish
that 2)1 the great talents of some Gentlemen opposite
to him were brought into co-operation with the
Right Hon. Gentleman (a cry of Ater. &dr !), yet
he could not believe there was not much done for
the country when the Right Hon. Gcntkman came
into his pre.ent ftuation. lie conceived it to be a
great acqttisition to the country. Ile could no; for-
get what that great man had done to save the :rate
in the most difficult of times, and from the ni..st
dangerous of enemies ; an tittered enemy, determin-
ed upon the overthrow of the constitution. The
country could not forget those great services, nor
ever could repay them. I-le must therefore rejoice to
see him again in the same high station, at this arduous
moment ; and from the superintendance of his tran-
scendent abilities he expected benefit of the most
important kind. He believed the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had the country with him. He was sure be
was on his side (a kagri hoggh ).

Sir WILLIAM GEARY contended that the
Bill was unconstitutional, in seducing the Militia
and augmenting the Regular Army, at the same
time, so as to destroy their former proportion to
each other. The Militia are to be ?Muted by
20.000 men ; and the Regulars angmented by
70,000, by the proposed operation of this Bill. It
was impossible to look at the possible consequences
of this without apprehension. The I louse was hound
to be jealous oa this subjeft and to prevent the a 2.

preach to such a state of things as tags
ia which the I louse would no longer hive t 4
counterad the evil. This force would wholy be in
the power of the executive C:overntnelit, hei,g
cereal in an unconstitutional manner, contrar to the
principle on which the Militia is Of&cerea.
jestion to this measure was the greater, bernise it
was not necessary. If the danger and extre-
mity of the limes called for it., all conr,l„.l.
tions must, give way to that necessity, But
it was not so. He admitted the French to be
powerful in an unexampled degree.- But would
any man now say we were not prepared for al their
exertions ?" Have not we been called upon t, make
preparations proportioned to the danger, old has
the nation been backward to do so? 13ut if we
were in a situation to repel every attempt of the
enemy (and he believed that would not Ise'aitnied),
there was no excuse for the sacrifice of a grew cos.
stitutional p: inciple. This WAS not the tine fry
such sacrifice. No necessity could be uisee far a
'ineasine so replete with danger.
Lord DUNI.° said, be ueed not state wa;
the sense of the House when this Bill was fiat
brought in. He need not state that the majority,
which voted for it, had increased on its dbmutit-
ment. In the Comniittee, no division had takes
place on anyone clause ; a sufficient proof that the
Creademen who opposed it had nut gained any ma-
vens to their-opinton. The sense of the House,
therefore, be anust contend, remained the sane
.As to the unexpected division of that night. Le
would not give it a name in that place. if he .A.:se
ih sortie other place, and had remained in the. jteN
fission to which he forrnetly belonged (tbat If. no.
rider). be would c.tll it sharp pradlising (a lregi)-
he repeated sharp pructisn.... The lion. Gerd:.
man opposite to him (Mr. Grey), triumphing in de
small aserrity of his friends. moves the second
reading nt :he amendments cretins day three trontbs.
thus plainly calling for tl;e dismissal of the NI.
which the House had supported through so ntar.y ,
stages, although he had not prefaced his motion by
any ona_argnment on the merits of the Bill. The
condua of' the other Gentlemen, on the ether aide.
was the same. 'they offer no arguments. for
hig the Bill, but glamorously call otzt fur the ques-
tion. He was addressing himself to mess who are
enemies to, the Bill (a lase). kit inessultat mar:, If
them were honourable ; and he would ask them, wh...
ther this was a mode to oppose the Bill? nth was ra
altered question (a teragtl). The Bill ought to stakt
or fall on its merits ; not be thrown out in the Twi-
ner now attempted. (Here, end at tart onott .f
ten fence, was es loud cry o/" 9serfien, 9nertion!")
Mr. HsNRY LASCELLES said, lie would ap.
peal to the feelings of the House, whether the m. de.
of gaining the majority on the last question was
honourable? It was not the praeliee of the threw
to divide in that unexpefled manlier.
Mr. GREY said, he rose to speak to order. The
question seas, that the amendments en this Rill b.
read a second time or. this day truce months. Tilt
IF,nourable Gentleman could nor, upon that ques-
tion, give the history (if a true tine) of a &wife
aivision in the Idolise.

The SPEAKER said, the Hon. Member rnizEt
airert to a former divisiGn, cuing it as an :asp-
went fm hit pr sent rote.

Mr. HENRY LAScEy,t,Es then repeated so
he had said respetting the ;inner ttortslion,
he had done with that soiled. As ta the quints:. .
before the Hottsc—,—,
:Mr. JEKYLL vow to order. He said, nralcssil'..
House meant to say, the Speaker was unworesy of
his stati n —unless all regard to order was laid aside,
the .1 lou.c could not peamit the 1-luls. Gentleman In
psuceed.
Mr. Piz r said, he rose to speak to order. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had chosen his time
to interrupt his Hon. Friend, with peculiar felicity
and sagacity. He had declared he had done with
the s ibjett, before the Honourable and I earrai
Gentle can rose; while he was on that subject, be is
allows d by the Learned Gentleman to proceed ; but
wizen he says, as to the question bcfore the lba:se,
n die Learned Member thinks it time to get up to
sp.itk to order (a loud &sigh). And it was to las ofr
: e. veil, that his Hou. Friend had the aandica of she
Speaker for the use he proposed to make of the lor.
tiler division.

Mr. FULLER said, he never would be tool
of a pArty, so much as to speAk against time.
Therefore, be added, let us come to the qtteatilo.
yuritim was Irni me.n! r;ilerilly relied pr.)

Mfr. RYDF.R said, he could never consent to go
to a division, without adverting to die extraordinary
manner is which the question on which the Hor
was to divide, was introduced. • He could not make
an appeal, in this case, to the Chair; but he might
and would appeal to the experience of the (Ado.
Member in the I louse, and call upon him to dci late.
whether Asunder attempt was ever made ? whethrt it
was nut contrary to all rule, such as is understocd
ansi prailliseil for the convenience of the /Lase:—
The House was taken by surprise.
air WILLIAM GEA RY said, this was itnpar-
liamentary largitage. and he could not permit tae
I-lon. Gentleman to proceed with it.
Mr. RYDER said, he could not consent that the
question sb,.uld go to &division without iliewing why
the Bill ought not to be lost; and it was his ..1
to prove that ate sense of the House had not b.,.
against it. On al sides it was allowed u. it tl:•r.
was a necessity for increasing the Regular Arri..:
and the only point was, as to that, whether this boi
provided the best means. He maintained it die.
by first inviting the recruits into a limited murk..
But it had been said, that the men thus raised wool'
not be good and proper soldiers. Ile wished as-
perience to be resorted to for the answer to dlit•
The troops in the Regular Army, drawn from the
Army of Reserve, were a sufficient pmnf of the
fallacy of that. assartion. It was said the kU
would impose an additional duty on the magistrates.
But it was torgotten that it would relieve them
from the immense labour of the Army of Reserve;
from all the painful duties of the ballots, when they
continually beheld the distress and misery that cora-
pulsory msde brought on thousands. He hadthouglt
the ballots necessary at the time, but that nrcey.ti
no longer existed, and therefore poor, en wb.an
they fell heavily, should be released from Ora.
He believed the Bill leoeilberecei~as a boor to
the country. It removed high bounties, and the
miseries of the ballot. When the Right Hcl.
Gentleman fist °pond this plan during the la