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London, England, 1821-04-04 00:00:00

economy. This was beginning at Ilia wrong etscl,
Ministers were as likely to adopt those tneasniell
• - • --- -

would they say of at privete Geutlenm, who, has-
ing resolved on retrenching his expenses,'cut short
his income as the 6rsi step towards it ? lie depre-
cated the frequent introduction of suggeatious as to
a breach of the public faith. Ile did not know how
it was, but these hints came inure frequently from
landed proprietors in that House than from any
other class. He would have them be aware, that
in proposing the invasion of the funded property
they were endangteriog their own. They ought to
know that the fuodholders had as good a right to
propose the invasion of the landed property, as the
landholders had to propose the invasion of funded
property. Ile did not think the malt duty the
first tax which ought to be repealed ; he thought '
the salt tux was much more oppressive, and ought
to be the list repealed. Ile cousidered, it as e
complettt mistake to suppose that the repeal of
the malt tax would give any relief to the agricul-
turiste.
Mr. LOCKHART corrected the understanding
which his lion. Friend near him hid taken sip, of
any suggestions us to the treatment of the funded
property. lie had never heard among all the sug-
gestions of any owe violent than a proposition
for laying a small tax on that property, and insking
the holders take their fair share of tile burdens of
the State. This was securing, instead of rod/qu-
eering their property, for it was impossible
that tholes could go on much longer as at
present—one party nominally !bolding the pro-
perty of the lands, while the reduce of it was
•II gathered up awl given to another patty, to
which the first were but, as it were, adseripti gleba,
mere wit, to pith the ri ;i:s fur the ad vaistage of
the fundholders. It was not the reduction of the
establishments which he and his Hon. Friends cent- •
tended for, but a reduction of the experrom of the
establishments. Was it not out of all reason, that,
when the necessaries and luxuriee of life were all
reduced in value, the expensed of those establish-
ments remained the same ? Great eulogium had
been passed on the Sinking Fund, but the Hon.
31ember oho made that enlogium was in reality
reproving the Right lion. Gentleman whom he
wished to support. That Right lime Gentleman
had redocid the Sinking Fund of 17 millions, left
by his predecessors, to ey millions. lie would
vote for the repeul of this tax, because he was con-
vinced that agriculture would get tin other re-
lief. The Committee had been sitting :bud listen-
ing to details of distress pet fectly well know
berme. The only use of the Petitious on this sub•
ject was to give the House some information, and to
sheet that the lasidloids were receiving no wills, the
farmers were making no profit, and that the la..r
pourers must be seithont employment. The clergy,:
the maeistricy, and the 3 eomaiiry reduced, where!
were they to look for the means of securing the/
tranquillity of the country ? Commodities had de.
teriorated 50 per cene.—tuxes ought to be reduced
in the like proportion. As to the argumetit of•
Ministers, that all theft things would right them-'
calves, he requ•red to know by what !worts.? How
was property to be secured, how was order to be pre-
served when thedial iris of the farmers was as great as
if an invading army had marched through the land?
He would beg to rs mind the. Right lion. Gentle-,
Won (the Chaneellor of the Exchequer) that in
1816, lie himself gave up as a boon to the poor,
when the Proverty Tax was repealed, this tax
which he now proposes to restore. This tax presses
peculiarly bard on the puor. The quality of the
beer is considerably deteriorated, and teen the mea-
sure is not fairly regulated, in tenacqueeee of the
monopoly of publicans. if it acre repealed, the '
poor would have this useful commodity at a much
more reduced rate, and in u better condition, which
would add cousiderably to their comforts. Jle
really did not believe that the Ministers were suf-
ficiently conversant with agricultural millers; if j
they were, they world taker some steps to relieve it.
The rent of the farmer is paid one of his capital,
and it must appear qinte obvious that such a sys-
tem cannot be of how coutieuence. The agri-
culturist has made every rut rilier that could be
made, and it was the duty of the Minister* to in.
terfere, and make every part of the State bear the 1,
burdens, and restore the equdihrium ; arid here he
could (301 avoid expressive his sorrow and regret at
the hingnage he heard held by sonic Gendenien iu
thst. House, lie had heard it said that the eg-ricul- •
turists have had their day, Oise they contributed to
sopport the war, mud must now submit to the con-
sequences of it. But he repudiated that doctrine
on these rounds these agriculturists are not the
same now • for aught he knew, they have com-
pletely changed sides, dild NOW become the capital-
ists. But he spoke of time who were now the land-
holders ; he rook, of the three millions who were
now in the deepest distreas, and were stretching
oat their binds to grr, assistaxece.--t Beer, bess.)
He looked upon their condiliou at present to 1w
the most 'silverside and degrodiag that ten well be
imagined. He therefore sineeKly trusted the Hattie
would turn their most serious attention to the ques-
tion, pod not be misled by the speech of the Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Wart!). who seemed merf -
ly to address himself to those Gentlemen wl o had
been the supporters of Mr. 111 J, as if Gentlemen
were to shut their eyes to decency and justice. He
did not think that having been a member of • Pitt
Club. or on account of any prior vote a 111411 may
have given, lie should now feel reluctant to change
bia opinions, and manfully avow them.— (Hear.)
Mr. Js SMITH said he had examieed the o bole of
the case uuw before the House with she utmost at.
tention, and bad arrived at quite dbfferent concha.
sierra from the Hon. Gentleman that just sit down.
lu common with many others who were holders of
land, he felt the great distress that intended, end of
be thought that the repeal of this tax could afford
any material relief he should most certainly vote for
rt. But he would appeal to au Hon. Baronet
opposite, Member for Kent (Sir E. Knatchbull),
who lead cuusiderahle issfortentrion on these sub-
jects. whether he thought It would afford any great
relief. lu ovule part.culer parts it may regime

gal distress, but it would be by no
eneral. But there was a still greater °ti-
the. that. We have been told- that if •
of Br. a quarter on malt took place, yet
beer or ale would not be reduced one
'—so that, in fart, all the advantages of
Ire would fall into the ,pocket of the I'ub-

id private brewer. There were no classes of
men had stronger claims on mar sympathies than
the labouring poor; but even if this tax were re-
pealed, it could not afford thent any material relief.
There was another question to which he wished to
call the attention of the House—he meant the Poor
Law., In these laws lie thought some alteration
might be made that would afford great relief; in.
devil he felt convinced it. was the only mode in
which any real or substantial relief could be extend-
ed. Several opinions haire been given on ibis sub-
ject. He thought that if the poor were employed
in the cultivation of the land, inateed of receiving
money, it would be a considerable improvement.
And he had no doubt if the Right Honourable
Gentleman opposite (Mr. S. Bourne, we-presume),
to whom the country is so much indebted; would
bring forward some each measure, he had no
doubt he should he met with the good' wishes of
the Parliament and the country.—(Dear, hear.)—
There was no man in That House a more.strenuous
advocate than he was for the most rigid s)stern of
economy. We are very much in the habit of in-
dulging in opinions about the extravagance of
Ministers, but lie did not think that they were
alone to blame. Gentlemen on his side of the
`House were as culpable as others for their ellpine-
:less and sloth in giving their support to the squan-
dering of million.. There was the Penitentiary
lately erected, the canal in Scotland, slid Inc
never yet heard • man speak of that Caledonian
cinul, that did not say it was the most absurd
thing that ever was done. There were also the
works at Sheeniest', Woolwich, Milford Haven,
and others, on which millions have beet' expended.
It was impossible then, uuless we retrace our steps,
that the country can be restored to any thing like
a flourishing condition. This country has always
been distinguished for cherishing the principles of
liberty, for all moral as well as mental improve-
meet, and for holding up to other nations an
example of all that was great and good. It was
for this reason he felt the great regret be did
at the sentiments of some Gentlemen. Ile al-
luded to the fears that were entertained about the
national debt. He had heard it said, it was idle
to talk of preserving the national honour, and that
it was impossible to preserve it by the course
we were now pursuing. Nothing could be more
erroneous than those opinion., nor there never
was • time more badly chosen for them them
the present. The fororoulKatiou of these senti-
menu' had a considerable tendency to withdraw
the confidence of other countries from Eng-
land. Ile had heard a gentleman of the first
distinction, in another country, say, " Is it
possible that Great Britain, after having been the
bulwark of other countries, should now in the
tiwe of peare desert its own principles ?"—(Hear.)
But did Gentlemen consider the COOSeqUelleeS
of such an act ? There are now eight or nine
hundred thousand stockholders in the country, be-
sides the number of corporations, insurance corn-
nice, other., whose property is so vested, that
it must actually appear little short of madness to
entertain such an ides. England has always been
considered the asylum of property throughout the
world ; and to the everlasting honour of this coun-
try be it said, that during the war, when we were
taxing ourselves to defray our expenses, we care-
fully and religiously abstained from taxing the pro-
perty of forrignem.—(Hear.)—lle knew of nothing
more highly creditable to the national character.
With respect to the present tax,' he thought the
repeal of it could not relieve the distress, and would
considerably diminish our revenue. There was
but one way to remove the national distress, and
that was by reducing our expenses is every possi-
ble way, and lie thought that Ministers would
edit strength and vigour to themselves, end have a
much wester prospect of ret • g their places, if
they introduce a system of. retrenchment : any
thing else cannot be effectual. Retrenchment in
every department, both io the army and navy,
should be resorted to. With respect to the latter,
in the proper time, when the estimates were before
the House, he should be able to spew that a con-
siderable reduction nosy and must take place in
that depart:neut.—ll/ear, hear.)
Sir J. BOUGHEY could nut support the motion
for the repeal of the Malt Tax, nlear the Gen-
tlemen alto advocated it, could give hint some
assurance that it was a measure of economy, and
would not be substituted by some other tax.
Mr. Cuawax wished that his Hon. Friend (Mr.
Sin th), who had gone so fully into agricultural dis-
tress, and yet who opposed the repeal of the pre.
sent tin., would 'thew some practical mode of re-
moving it. There has been for some time a Com-
mittee billing out this question, and he had nu
doubt tbat such a body of evidence had been sub-
mitted to them, a most distressing case of agricul-
tural distress would be made out. With respect
to the Poor Laws, it would undoubtedly be most
desirable that some favourable change should be
effected, but he was quite at • loss to know how
that could be dune. the expenses of the land-
holder were enormous, and lie begged the at-
tention of the Ilouse to it. He payed 20 per
cent. poor rates, 5 per cent. county rates, S per
cent. repairs, and per cent. for collection,
making. the whole 34 per cent.--(Hear,
hear.)--Was it then it' the nature of Things that
the homer could keep lend on such conditions?
The country is every day getting into a worse and
worse condition. The fuodholder should be made
to bear his share of the burdens. He dud not mean
to diminish his interest or security, all he wished for
was, that there should be something like a fair pro-
portion. With respect to the present ten, it bears
particularly hard on the pourer clamors, and the re-
moval of it would add considerably to their com-
forts. He, therefore, hoped that Ministers would
consent to its repeal, and look fairly at the state of
the country ; for they must be prepared to prove
that the country is in a state of prosperity and
plenty, before they can ask us to continue this
tax ; unless they could do that he should vote
alpinist it.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BENETT (of Wiltshire) felt anxious to pre-
serve a good understanding between the landholder
cud fustelbolder, fur he considered it of the utmost

•

importsaee. It he were to ask a corniaereial man
whether the agriculturists were not his best cus-
tomers, he would answer in the affirmative; and
should he ask the agriculturist the same question,
he would undoubtedly get •ii,similar answer. It
must therefore appear wise and politic to pre-
serve the counexton.-1 Hear, hear, hear.)—
He was aware that a Committee was sitting on the
subject of agricultural distress, but lie really did
not hope for much relief from those qUiliterS.
After the deliberations they had had ou various
questions, after the able and eloquent speech they
had heard the other night on the subject of bul-
lion from the Hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Be-
ring), and when he saw the conclusion they came
to. and when they were told that no taxis were to
tie repealed, he almost despaired of any relief. He
felt as much pain as any mon in that House at
some observations that had been made on the na-
tional credit ; but he must say, that if we are to
maintain the national 110110 Ur. the country should
be put in a condition to enable them to sustain it.
If we were once rid of this national debt, that mill-
stone that is tied round nor necks, be defied any
political economist to assert that the country would
not be again in a flourishing condition. Gentlemen
have asserted that this tax is riot a pressure on the
country ; but that theory is no better than if lie
presented a sword to a inan's breast, and told him
the point had no sub.tanre, and could not hurt hint.
The repeal of this tax %sould give the greatest re-
lief to the loner classes. For, who are the Coll
furriers? The industrious labourer, who by this
tax is deprived of this, Ids only luxury. Within
his memory every labouring man made beer within
lots own home, and when lie returned from his
work, could enjoy it comfortably at his own ti:e-
side ; but now he can't do so, he is obliged to go
to the public house on his way home, and this
brings on dissolute habits, indepeedent of the
tape/roe attending i', all of which would be
rentoVed by the repeal lif this tax. We would
be met by and by with a statemeut of the less
of revenue of It ur 1,300,000/. ; but Ise did not
think it was so much. If we repeal the tax, we
have a right to anticipate juror:tried consumption,
end he therefore thought the diminution in the re-
venue, if any, would be very inconsiderable. He
was most anxious to support every species of
economy, and should rapport the repeal of this las.
Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS observed, that the Hon.
Gentlema) who had just sat down lied gone through
every question connected with agricultural distresa,
and neglected the immediate question before the
House. There was no man inure fully sensible of
the distresses of die country than he was, but he
had not heard ariy one Gentleman that had yet
spoken say that the repeal of this tax would *flood
ally immediate relief—nor could lie really conceive
how it should. The consumption of malt was note
just us great as it had been on any former occasion.
He concluded by saying that lie should oppose the
measure.

Mr. BRIGHT &till he should support the motion.
He thought the immense army we had was not lIV.
ces,ary to the country. and the still enormous &ti-
mid?a might be curtailed rufftctently to equal this
ehorinous malt tax. He denied that the commer-
cial ;were,' was not equally distressed with the
agriculturists, and therefote lie could not give his
consent ►o tax the funds to relieve the land. The
landed intere►t had no right to shake off the burden
of tithes or poor's ratty, se they held their estates
subject to those burden.. He trusted the House
would follow the example set them by the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen, and narrowly look into the
E•timates, which were ►till to come before them.

Mr. BIM WIT and Mr. —BRIGHT mutually ex-
plained.
Colonel WOOD admitted that the tax pressed
upon the coquinas of the poorer classes, but
thought the repeal of the tax would not benefit
them to any extent ; and, judging from what took
place in 1816, he did not think the brewers would
reduce the price of their beer, even if the tax were
to be repealed—and should they reduce the price
equal to the duty taken off, it would not amount to
a forthiog per pot of porter. He thought the Bill
was not quite fair towards the Agricultural Commit-
tee; it would, in his opinion, have been proper to have
waited to see what they would propose to the House.
He would be willing to-morrow to vote for the re-
peal of the whole of the Malt Tax, if lie could see
a moth:led Property Tsx; butt at present he could
not consent to re peal a tax by which so much of
the income of the country as 1,500,0001. (which
this tux produced) would he broken down. For
these reasons, and because it was a lislf measure,
he should vote against it.
Mr. F. Lewis thought it was wise to have got
rid of the Property Tax, both on account of its
amount and the mode of its operation. The great
fault of that tux was being on too narrow a basis.
The Malt Tax was not liable to that objection, as
it spread itself over a much wider surface. if he
could think the repeal of the tax would be a
relief to agriculture, that would have great weidit
with him ; but he never would, in any vote which
lie should give in that House, confine himself to the
consideration of one interest only. But he &Mid
that it would operate as an immediate relief to the
distress which was felt. It might operate on a long
average of years, but the question was how to give
relief directly, and it was saying soothing, there fore,
to affirm that this measure would he a reloef in len
or fifteen years. If be-were called upon to give an
opinion as to what tax would operate the greatest
relief to the hooded interest, he should say, relieve
them front the pressure of stamps: the stump
duties, in his opinion, were must oppressive on
the landed interest.

Colonel Wont) explained.
Captain GORDON rose to corroborate the account
*lnds hail beets given of the distressed stale of the
north of Scotland. He objected to the Bill, be-
cause the duties imposed by it were the same fur
Scotland as for this country. He objected to the
Bill, therefore, on the ground that justice would
not he done by it to the hitter country.
Mr. SMYTHE conceived the best preparation for
war was to husband our resources ; he should there-
fore vote for the repeal of the lax.
Lord CASTLEREAGH moved, that the resolution
of the Finance Committee of 1818 be read, which
was accordingly douse by the clerk at the table. It
stated, that, ►n the opinion of the Committee, that
fur the purpose of supporting public credit, a clear
surplus of income above the expenditure of not leas
than five millions Was necessary, and for that pur-

• k.'.
. \
• ii. • 1 ,

' .

pose it was npetilent to inert.ttse the taxes to the
amount of three millions.

Lord CASTLEREAGH then rose and said, that as
he had declared immediately after the vote was
taken for the introduction of this Bill, that he
should give it his most strenuous opposition in its
future stager, he now rose to redeem his pled r.
Ile could assure the Hon. Mover that it oil
with considerable pain, standing is, the situation
which he did, to resist...aLn_ moment ef wklsk
pressure, a proposition for W. relief, made by PS re-
spectahle a Member ; hut he felt it art a pittlic duty
towards every portion of the commuttily. and to
none more this. that class for relief the MlS-
sure was particularly intended, and lie could 'satire,
the Honourable Nlover dirt there was no iater.st
is, the community to which be looked up with mote
respect than the lauded Micro-mt., and if be cosh'
pesetrade himself that they could have ■ seperate
interest ftom the rest of the community, or that
this measure would he a relief to them, he should
f-el the duty which he had imposed on himself
Mill more arduous and !rainfall than it was ; but
he was persuaded, that the integret of the public
was the interest of the landholder, and further,
that this was not the tax fur the rebel of
the latter, even on the ground where it hat been
placed by the advocates of the measure. Ile had
heard much which had given him pain on the topic
which had been urged, but lie thanked Gud that
the time was trot arrived when any principle incon-
sistent with public credit could lie heard with
favour in that House. It appeared to him that even
the proposers of ouch measures recoiled from them,
contenting themselves with merely throwing them
out fur the consideration of the House, doing
homage thereby to the publoc jwitice of the country.
Ile was not afraid of the deliberate deterinliestion
of a British l'arltameut giving any sanction to a
breach of faith, if brought Wrote theta in a direct
shape ; hut lie wilted to caution the House nut to
stiffer that to be Josue by asp, which they would oat
peewit to he dime by open assault. If the revenue
were destroyed, imbhe tretlit ivoold be as effec-
tually ruined as it we were arrived at that immoral
era when we should relieve one interest at the
expense of another. As the surplus of revenue
was out eufficient to redeem the pledge given to the
fussilholder in 1819, it certainly was not sufficient
to enable the House to remit any taxes for the sake
of relieving the hartleiis on the people. The Tian
tum of relief "which the hill !imposed io give would
not be sufficient benefit to the tanning interest to
justify whet lie should consider en infraction of the
public faith. lie should confine what lie had to
bay in en few word, possible, anti would direct the
attention of the House In I love pnitos: let, W he-
flier the revenue of the country was in a state to
remit ally tax ? Secondly, Whether this was the lax
t.. tamd the relief which was de-ired ? told, lastly,
liVliether there was any finsocial motive for repeal-
ing the tax Ile thought the (Lime would go
along with hint in cotoidering that nothing could
be more nowise than laying on a tax on one
day, trod without reason repealing it at another. This
tax was laid on, after mature deliberation, as pert of
• great s 3 stem, of which the malt tax was the corner-
stone. As to the tax bearing plant agriculture.. fie
would inquire what reasons there were for suppos-
ing that any redaction had been occasioned by it
in the consnuiption of bay ley, fur the I lonourable
Mover would allow that if the consutnption were
not narrowed, no injury bad been sustained by the
ogricultoraliet, and if cow repealed it would
therefore give no relief. 11'ith respect to the
market fot barley, it appeared that the qoaatity of
malt made last year exceeded the average of the
last thirty years by six or seven hundred thousand
bushels; it exceeded the averiage of the last four
years, during two of which the tax had been in
operation. li-, then, the quantity had not been
oat rowed, where del the Honourable Mover find
evidence that the colisniner wanted relief He
thought lie could slew that since the tilt was laid
on lir 1819, wheii his 'tight Hon. Friend (the
Chancellor of the Fehequer) predicted it would
not oce ision any additional Itres.tite on the country,
and the fact was, that so far from it, the price of
beer hid twice hero reduced since the tax was laid
on ; so that the tax lied in fact been productive io
the Exchequer, without any additional pressure on
the consumer. If the tax were taken off, could
the Hon. Mover guarantee that it should remain
off for two years, or even that this public would
reap any benefit from the reps al ? The amount of
the duty, if repealed, would be id. per gallon
on porter ; but how was it possible for the retail
consumer to be relieved from three farthings a gal-
lon, when he paid for his beer by the quart ? Since
the tax had been laid on, the quantity of
beer brewed exce;_nled by 1,2n0,000 barrels, the
average of forgoer years, and the Excise duty
had increased boils in town and country. Ile
would venture to :insert, thi,!, jud4ing by the ex-
perience of the list thirty were, the consumption of
wall was not so much regulated by the amount of
duty as by the state of the memo') and other oncost'.
stances. It 1916, when the duty was 4s. 4d. per
bushel, the consumption of malt was twenty-six
millions of bushels. Jo 1817 theduty was reduced,
and the consumption was seventeen, millions of
bushels. In 1841, when the duty was reduced
to 3s. 6d. per bushel. the consumption wait
24,300,000 bushels. He would resist the repeal
of the tax in justice to the lauded interest, which he
loved.—(4 leargh.)—.lle satiated that it meld be
a great misfortune to the landed interest to hese
the reproach of breaking down the finances of the
country, and in his opinion there were no perform less
interested in opposing the tax than the landholder.
If the House could, consistently with the faith
it owed to the country. vote for a remission of taxes
to this amount, the Malt Tux was not that which
could best be dispensed with, or which it would be
most advisable to remove. If such a measure were
to be entertained in any shape, as that brought
forward on a former night by the lion. Member
for Abingdoli, as a general proposition, that relief
should he given to the country, by the remission of
taxes to the amount of • million and • half, he had
much rather that the amount should be taken off
in Window Tax or House Tax, and he was sure
that the landed interest itself would take much
more relief in that way than from the measure now
proposed. There were, indeed, other taxes which
it would be far better to remove; hut to suppose
that any relief could be derived from the reduc-
tion of the Malt Tax, was one of those delusions
against which he must and always should protest.

*toil
the repeal or one of those taxes, when his • , some part
•1
nions hod undergone no Fhange. It soisallt• means Beni
• gross disitilileo474lol4o oPOses OS • , jection the
reading awe ii4,-..., A'.. at asanyfieplenfied ' reduction s
bees isdrediterill im* •thsVitinesis :•shit Sala• the price e
ject.• lilted bees* Adlecres a reason to ilietWy the halfpenny-
repeal or this tax, the, by reducing the inuisae, this measui