The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1819-02-10 00:00:00

IRISH GRAND JURIES.

Mr. Dawson presented a Petitinvi from the Ma-
gistrate% of the County of Londonderry, complain-
ing that Cie provisions of the law pissed in the late
Parliament, on the subject of the Irish Grand
Juries, were found to be inefficient and im-
practicohle, and praying that that law might be
revised, with a view to its amendment or its repeal.
[The flue. Gentlemast spoke in too low a tone of
'mire to he distinctly lielrd in the Gallery.] He
',tot Ova the old system (th,it which was superseded
he the law enacted during the late Parliameut) was
preg,natit with public mischief, and with gross op.
pro-sown—and nothing Inure loudly called fur
reboot This was the general impression, asol
the Petition which he now pretentell did nut
contain a single word hostile to the principle of
Co! law ; that principle, crud,' it be reduced
;itto practice, was one which every man wois!tt
support ; hut the great cause of complaint was,
that the Magistrate* in Ireland lint nut find it
possible to carry the provision* of that Act into
effect—and it was complained of as a great hard-
ship, that, in consequence of the deficiency of the
Irw, the public roads were now no longer repaired.
The lion. Gentleman concluded by riyirig some
very handsome consplonents to Mr. Vesey Fits-
gertild, for the zeal and ability shewn by him in
most laborious and disinterested efforts to abolish
sjstem so pregnant with public aril, as that which
the bow ititroduced by him attempted to subvert.
Sir JOHN STzWAaT said a few words against the
present Grand Jury Law.
General HART said, that in his mind there were
many objections to the law as it now stood, and
cite great objection was, that it wur found not prac-
ii,able. It unposed too, on the Magistracy at the
Quarter Sessions, duties which, pressed as they were
vith other public business, it was almost impossible
to exectite.

Mr. V. F +9. I —MIRA LD said he *Gild for the pre-
sent avoid going into any topics that did not imme-
diately arise out of the Petition just presented to
the House. Whatever might have been the opera-
tion of the Act, the House and the country would.
he had no doubt, at least dcrjustice to the motives of
those by whom it was introduced, to their anxiety
fir the public interests,ead their desire to put down
abuses which were disgraceful to the laws sod Mitoti-
c's,s to the morals and the welfare of the Irish people.
Ile. for one, had no other motive than to protiote
the public good; and he would not tamely or
silently submit to any imputaiumn which Gentle.
men might think fit to cast ill the Hill. As to
what fell trom Mr. Dawson, he had nothing to ann.
iilaus of. nor would he now deny but that local
canoes might have rendered it difficult, at s particu-
lar time, to carry the provisions of the law lulu exe-
cution, however easy they might be executed in
other parts of Ireland, and however well they might
have operated. But he would beg the attention of
the Mope to what fell from the I-lou. Gentleman
(Nit. Dawioh) in the candid statement lie had
made. lie said that moat disgraceful abuses and
most intolerable burdens pressed upon the people
of below' before the enactment of the law now
rnmplained of. The Him. Gentlemen who pre.
s.iited the Petition, spoke of Islas in terms too
flattering, but lie hoped he might Nay, with-
a It
any breach of tremolo! delicacy, that his
endives were at !east pore, end Inn zeal mu-
Lorded by any 'set-wind conaideintions when he
Inhumed to overturn a systef9 pregnant with public
PO. This system might, iii the ryes of smite. he
"I"ked upon with intesert :Ind with leudermtui..—they
might bewail its fall as the fall d sit ota.firiend—
thry aught describe it as an institution innocent we
at ors sorieut. De never ei 'timeliest witii tlw ins! i t
hoes mita', it wan of its abuses that lie had alwaya
"Plallied—it was these ahems that he had always
Lihoured to (avenues*. oss the differerft omissions
Ow‘n he brought the subject he fore the House, he
rltauittrd she excellence of the ancient lams, lint it
aos issansf,4 that time and eisrrsilnicui had melted
tutu oy abuses, and that two tats-urea atm

ptnsable. Eat however necessary these measures
might have been. the Hasse would recollect that
the duty of revising the ancient law was not I
a duly voluntarily undertaken by hint—it was not
until the Repents of different Committee, had
been laid before Parliament—it was not until these
Amami became manifest, and loudly called for the
interference rf Gower ttttt ent, that lie, we a Mem- I
her of that Government, was called on to bring I
forward some measurer to meet an evii so flagrant •
and so extensive. Ile was not, be said, insensible
of the odium which his exertions had collected ois
I • ; lie flt it even iu the very county he repre-
sent.. Goverionent, he said, were pledged to in-
vestigate the causes of so much public abuse; they
did investigate—and he would now challenge those
who complained of the present law, whether they
could bring the tenth part of the abuses which
were proved to flow directly from the old sys-
tem, which they wished to re.estmb:ish, against
the new law, which they wished to repeal.—
Ile could himself prove many abuses which came
immediately under his consideration. Olt the other
hand, that some imperfections might be found in
the late law he did not mean to denv. It was dif-
ficult to avoid some errors—it was difficult to have
every thing complete Had perfect, when you sub-
stitute new regulations for those which had existed
fora century before—which had grown up with the
institutions of the country—and which had been
administered by a body so transitory as that of a
Grand Jury. But he thought it rather hard, that
Gentlemen who withheld themselves from the in-
vestigation, who refused to contribute their la-
bour or their information, should now complaiii
of what they never took any trouble to correct.
Ile did not impute any thing unhandsome to Gen-
tlemen, but it too frequently happened that men
could not endure the success of a treasure which
they had originally opposed ; they look on its
sueceas with envy, and they hinted its fall with an
unworthy pride. The principle he sanctioned was
the principle of reform—it was a principle that
could not sanction the expenditure of the public
money, without having that money strictly ac-
counted for ; this was a principle, lie submitted to
the House, deserved the summit of the House, nor
would they entertain the views of those who said,
return to the old system, and throw the labours
of the late Parliament away. He would not con-
ceal the fact, that in various part« of Ireland
objections were made to the Grand Jury Laws as
they now stood. It would be uncandid on his part
not to state the fact, the more particularly as he
understood some county Meetings were to be held
against it. It had been stated that the provisions
of the law were nnrt found practicable ; he would
ask, were they tried ? He would lament the incon-
venience of the country, but that was not the fault
of the law. If it was %hewn that the provisions of
the law could not be put iu force, he would be the
first to abandon it ; but he could not help saying
that the nowrtion made, that the law prevented the
passing of presentment' and the employment of
the people, was a gross misrepresentation. Inconve-
nience might in some places have occurred, but in
most parts of Ireland the law operated to the advan-
tage of the country, amid he would implore the House
nut to touch on the principle of the law—that prin.
ciple winch gave security and protection to the peo-
ple that the public money should be applied to
useful purposes, timid should not be advanced with-
out being strictly accounted for. Highly as he
valued and respected those Gentlemen who coin-
tese the Grand Juries of counties in Ireland, he
could not forget that they were a transitory, and,
therefore, not a responsible body—that pressed as
they were with a variety of other business, they had
little time to bestow on presentment accounts; but
when those accounts were examined in open Court
by Magistrates at Quarter Sessions, and when no
accoont could pass without their sanction, he
considered that process a great security for the
proper appropriatiou of the money of the people.—
The Hon. Gentleman who presented the Petition,
lie said, called on him to amend the law. Could
he auticipme the sentiments of others, as he did
those of the Hon. Gentleman—could he suppose
that they, like him, were sincere, lie would will.
'ugly undertake any duty that the House would
impose on him ; hut he lilt that there was an ob.
jectiou in the minds of some to the very principle of
the law ; by felt that their object was not to amend
it, hut altogether to overthrow the principles upon
which it was founded, and he would thereby beg
to liberate himself frosts any further interference.
Indeed it would be but a fruitless effort on the part
of any individual. He recollected when the law was
liist brought iii, recommended as it was by the me-
ces.ity of the rase, mid aided as it was by the sup-
port of Government, it was with diltcolty that it
passed through the House, and he feared that
the peinciple of that law could receive little sup-
;inn from the unassisted efforts of an individual
liliconnected an lie now was with the Government
of the country. He would, therefore, decline the
tiok, and he should make but one observistion—he
would make it with monitors% and with a
deep seine of the importance of the subject.—
It was, that the great object of the law de-
served the protection of his Majesty's Govern-
ment, slid lie implored of them to protect it. It
was, he repeated, too much fur an unassisted iudi-
victual ; and when he recollected that the object of
that law was to overturn a system, the growth of a
century, be was not surprised at the Opposition it
lie was not ammo:eds. Lowey'r lie might
lament, that he had Ifeen so often called to
b•-•!';e omit in and out of Parliament. He would
beg to atone, that «lieu rn Huniterahle Baronet
(Sir John Newport) had formerly brought before
this House the state of Ireland, his Right Hnn.
Frieliel ph. Peel) and himself pledged themselves
to investigate this very subject, as
.a subject deeply
affecting the public and the local interests of that
country. Ile was, he feared, betrayed into too long
a statement; but he assured the Home that he
abstained from meat things which pressed upon hits
feelings; he had 100 much reason not to expect
matey hostile attempts against the pritiCiplie of the
Grind Jury Laws; whenever they were made, he
should rise in his place to combat them—but ho
felt it right to state that there his iuterfereiree
should end. _ _ _

Sir fic.NRY PARNELL said, he agreed with the
Linn. fientlemot (Mr. ritsi,zerolel), too only NU to
tile eery syloeto which, he hail overtorueri.
hut fill e great aril useful nprratinn of the pretirot
hi,' • lie coild rtLitc, that in the comity he repro.

sealed that law operated most ; he
spoke frosts official information. lie wrote a letter
to the Secretary of the Grand Jury of that county,
to know whether any material difficulties had pre-
vented the provisions of that law from 1.-tisg carried
into execution, and the answer of that officer was, that
no difficulty whatever presented itself, hut that the
operati ssss of site law had born eminently oriccessful.
This he stated from his own inquiries ; rind he fear-
ed that Gentlemen %vim celoured it slid not always
take the precaution of understanding it. At the As•
sizes, before that law had been tried in the Qiieen's
county, the amount of the presentments wee thir-
teen thousand pounds; lost when that law come
into operation, the amount of the presentments was
four thousand pounds, and two thousand pounds of
this sum was disapproved of by the Magistrates at the
Quarter Sessiono. . 'rho* did it work in the Qneess'a
county ; and if the law had operated so beneficially
there, he could not see why it would tint equally
operate in other counties. Temporary causes might
prevent it fur a season, but it was founded on a
principle that must ultimately operate for the good
of the country. The Hon. Baronet concluded by
expressing hie hope, that the request of the
Gentleman (Mr. Fitzgerald) would be attended to
by his Majesty's Government, and that they would
support a measure which promise,) to promote the
morality, and to protect the interests of the Irish
people.
Sir GEORGE iitt.T. said, that as the Represen-
tative for Londonderry, he hoped Are would he ex-
cused for snaking a few remarks. He very willingly
admitted the zeal and ability of the Run. Gentle-
man (Mr. Fitzgerald), and he should hope that he
would not refuse his assistance to revise a law which
certainly called for amendment. As to an Miser-
%%llion of the lion. Gentleman, he would declare
that there was no hostility whatever on the part of
the petitioners, to the principle upon which that
law was founded.

Mr. FITZGERALD 1111114, that as far as he could
lend his aid, he would willmely assist in any mineuil-
ments that might he found necessary in the law,
provided the principle of the law itself was not at-
tempted to be destroyed. As to the Petitioners,
nothing was further from his intention than to im-
pute any hostility to them. As to the Honourable
Baronet, he did not menu to apply any observation
to him. He was the Geutletnan who, in that
House, seconded the measure. He gave it his
support—every part of it ova submitted to his con-
sideration, for the purpose of receiving his *auction.
Mr. Net. *aid, he regretted to find any imps•
Bence manifested by the House on the present
occasion ; and that regret certainly was not of a
personal kind, as he did not intend to trespass at
any length on the time of the House. But he did
conceive that the affairs of Ireland merited more
attention. When he considered the importance of
that country, the small number of Representatives
which she sends from her own shores to sit in the
British Senate, and the little time which the con-
cerns of that country occupy. he would be forgiven
for saying, that he thought come small attention
ought to be given to her athirs—he thought that in a
full House, Ireland might have justly expected a lit.
tie more consideration to her interest and her situa-
tion. With respect to the objections urged against
the Bill, he considered thew objections made by
anticipation ; no time had interfered since the pass-
ing of the Bill that could tell how it operated one
way or other, and therefore he considered the oh.
ireful's, urged nut because the Bill had been found
to he defective on trial, but those objections were
made in anticipation. But even if some difficulties
should present themselves, surely that would be no
ground for returning to a system which was univer-
sally disapproved. As for the ancient principle of
the law, it was never abandoned ; it was the abuses
that were given up ; the law was not supplanted,
but the abuses of it were corrected. Gentlemen, he
said. who were not, like him, immediately con-
nected with Ireland—he begged pardon—he was
no longer officially connected with that country,
but he was connected with her by dearer ties;
his zeal for her prosperity, and his best wishes
for her happiness, remained, and ever would re-
mein unabated; but Gentlemen not connected
with that country knew very little of what was
meant by account'', affidavits, presentments, and
other terms, the very mention of which deterred
them from further inquiry. It was quite necessary
that there is a very importaut difference between
the powers of the Grand Jurors in Ireland and those
of England ; the Grand Jurors of Ireland have
the power of raising money to any unlimited
amouut--and Gentlemen who in this House wit-
nessed the formalities necessary for every grant of
the public money, would naturally suppose that
something of the same nature was practised by the
Grand Jurors in Ireland. They would indeed
expect, that in the latter case. more difficulties
would be in the way—because this House is com-
posed of the representatives of the people, they
would therefore suppose that not less formalities
should be observed by those who were not the re.
presentative, of the people. The Grand Ju►y
there is a body nominated by one individual, who
is nonominated by the Crown, and the only
qualification for those individuals is, that they
should be forty shilling freeholders. yet they
hate the power, the unrestrained and unlimit-
ed power of taxing the
,people to any amount;
Aud to what amount have the Irish people been so
taxed ? to the amount of One million, at a time
when the other lazes paid to the Crown amounted
•to four million'. It was impossible for the Grand
Jury to attend to the preentments, their power was
limited to the number of days the Judge of Assize
remained in the county. He recollected that at
one particular Amite, the number of presentments
was so great, that had the Cramd Jury laid ill other
business aside—had they not even looked Into the
criminal Issuances of the county, hut attended in-
, cessautiy to the presentineuti,•they yet could be-
stow but one Minute and an half to each present.
ment during the entire Period of the Assile.
This Net. lie conceived, required no observation.
As to • the description of paeans win' applied lot
those presentments, they required no other geisha.
cation than to be able to write their nestles, mud from
the nature of the thing. they could receive but lit-
tle consideration front the Judge. It iss right to
add, that the only evidence laid before the Grand
Jury, on granting the presentment. war the affidavit
of one of the individuals who was to receive the mo.
airy. He had in his official situation, occasion to
enter .uto the details of a particular ease. A pre-

•_

tenement 6, 18,0001 wee granted, slid An Act of
Parliament gave power to the Lo dr of stir Treasury
to *demos that sum for the ex.cittosti of the wok.
Application vino snide accordingly. hot the original
estimete woo increaaril from 19.1)0o/. in 41,0001.
end flit, sum was to let levier! nn list lasilsolders
of the country. When tbi. el sins was made. he
felt it lii• duty on lo hall of the laodholdert, to
investigate she forsooth.. mod he was struck with
one item of 230/. granted by the oversew of the
stork+ to the tritsit,t• of ei gristksisaii.
for imitating 11:e ro 111 tins titzli altar loud.; and tisk
ovei.rer voided this .nos sdetsralitt. NllllOl.ll any
w»mstit I We Growl Jary Noy moist).
city whatever. Thia 'oceorr-il u.sdrr 'lee ohf sy•tren,
such this fort Arnie wools' give see 0)11..t a motion
of the inatisitons absi4ts that tided it.
Sir J. Nioveoex said, no eenslid man, no mast
who regarded ilie welfare of Irelaarl. could object
to the prim:tole of the present law ; the Investor
bed not a fair trial; the objection to the inantsure
WWI prospective, not practical. It has not worked ;
we know not its effect ; we Call .only issoicipate—
and i• scot fair to anticipate the worst. As
to the old system, it was full of imperfeciro. ;
it *55 vW10U....t) viciona and ors Odin's% that
if the choice were left to him he would Dither
forego the benefits of all law upon the subject, then
to embrace that system, pregnant as it was with im-
morality, with rapacity. and oppression. old
system was bud, slid it ong!it mot to exist. As to
thy objection wade to the liter ust it now sdands, lie
would only say that it was possible that the law ie-
/pored amendment: he would say. amend the law—
Wreiserve the principle. How cauld it be t xpected
fhat so Act which aubvelted an :ancient practice,
winch embraced new stud opposite prosciples,
should slot lie attended with mount emus? 1111-
1114111 foressght could nut prrvetit them. Win re
they occur, let them be corrected-I,ot let Lice
principle of the bow resists.—it was a Oar, ;Win-
ciplr, which diricoisiiteisanced jolilinig, and prow:il-
ea at olive the politic morals ;11111 VW 1/111)11C Ilicesiry
from the rapacity of those who would corrupt tile
one to possess the other.
The Petition was ordered to lie on the to
THE CIUMINAI. CODE.
Mr. WILDLREORI;F: presented a Petiti from
the Society of Friends sizainst the punish sit of
death in certain casts. Ile said, that on m re oc-
casions thou one thr Legislature had been acquaint.
ed with the exemplary voodoct of that body of
men, who now presented en humble Petition
against laws which the hest and wiseat mess have
held to he impolitic cud severe. It was, he said,
impossible for kiln to rinse his humble voice
in that House. without temenilwriug With deep
sorrow the loss of that mats who, in that Hutw,
laid often pleaded with eloquence the cause of ho-
monity—of that mats whose talons were on orna-
ment to his country, but whose talents fell below
the standard of his virtues ; Jtis sleuth was on many
occasions a subject of public regret ; lie was the
genuine patriot. whose patsiotiont was exalted by
his humanity. It was, lie said, to be regretted
that the country had so long neglected to take this
great question into considerntion. Since the days
of Howard, we have been apprised of the evil, but
we have nut applied the remedy. It was, lie said.
most lamentable to follow up all the melancholy
effects of the Criminal Law—one of the to.,et me-
lancholy of these effects was, that the uncertaiiity
of the law left the unhappy criminal in that elate
of unceneinty that lie literally gaolbird his exist-
ent:v. He recollected having had a conversation
with the lair, Justice Buller, who said to him that
those unhappy wretches who were cosifined under
sentence of death. speculated sic wagers that they
would slot suffer the penalties of the law. With
those unhappy wretches it was a gambling ape.
collation whether they would live, or die on the
' gallows. The Hon. Gentlemen said there we: a great
and melancholy mistake made in the treatment of
public criminal*. Experience proved (lie iii•Licced
particularly the case of IllitariUll•te females), that
where criminals were treated with tesidertiesw, they
returned to the paths of virtue, OW compensated,
by their good conduct, for the irregularities of their
former lives. But it was the fault of thee law that
no attention was paid to the wretched culprit if he
escaped the punishment of death, he was rent nwey,
enslaved, ussilistructeds nosettesided to ; but he
hoped a more enlightened policy Could operate to
the diminution of crime, and to the promotion of
justice and humanity.
The Petition was ordered to lie on the table.
WINDSOR EWA BLISH MEN+.

Lord CASTLEREAGH roue to port pone the con•
sideration of the Windsor Establishment to 'Thurs-
day se'iinight.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, that after the
speech they had just beard. and after the Petition
that hod been presented, he was not It little as-
tonished at the silence of Ministers. Surely the
Home 'Mild expect some explanation from the
advisers of the Crown on this finprortarit subject.
Lord CASTLEREAGH raid lie did not slunk it
usual, where o Petition was presented, to enter into
nil discussion ou the merits of that Petition. The
presentation of a Petition was only preliminary to
discussion, and for the present he did not feel k ne-
cessary to say any more.
Sir J. bloosityrosli-0 I rise, Sir, to elm entire, that on
Taco*, the Cid of February, 1 'laud to bract the subject
of the Crholoal Law ceder theearosideratiou of this Howe...