The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1810-04-14 00:00:00

IRISH TITH ES.

Mr. PAILNZLL rose, and said—A, Sir, when con.
eider the recent occurreuces relative to the Eman-
cipation of the Catholics of Ireland, Iconic forward
with a considerable degree of delicaey.—(Hear,
hear.)—Not that l feel that any argument which
I shall have the honour to introduce, will, in my
opinion, tend to lessen the right of Catholic Emu..
cipatiou ; but that it may be used in the hands of
the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, as an argument
against that which it was a disgrace to England not
to grant.—(Hear, hear.)-1 should feel happy,
is the motion which 1 shall have the honour of
proposing,that that question should lie forgotten. if
I am obliged to touch on it, it will be with that
delicacy that the merits shall not receive a rub ;
the ground-work shall remain undisturbed ; I will
try, like a skilful painter, to re-touch its borders,
lemming the original as I f.uud it.—(Hear, hear./
The motion I intend to move is for a reduction of
the tithes of Ireland; all classes of people in that
country are concerned in them, and they must be
all beuefitted. I will also 'thew that it will tend to
ameliorate the condition of all classes in that coon.
try. I presented a petition, the Session before the
last. from the county which I have the honour to
represent, to the same effect as my motion shall be
this night. The House at that time avoided it, on
the ground that they had not sufficient informa-
tion ; that nor'/could not be au objection, and if it
was, he would frustrate it by his notion, for it was
only fur a Committee of inquiry. The greater
part of the population of Ireland are not of the Pro.
trident Religion. The population amounted to five
millions, and four millions out of them are Catho-
lics, and one-half of the other million Protestant
Dissenters and Quakers, which leaves the Protest-
ants at half a million. This. calculation I could
make many comparisons front, but I will abstain;
I will not speak of the West India Islands, or of
South America, where the slaves form three-fourths
of the population.—/Hear, Aear.)—l think the
comparison bad, and will take the enumeration of
Mr. Newnhain, who, it must be acknowledged.
took great paths, that there were nine Catholics to
oil. Protestant iu Ireland. I will ask then, is it
fair—is it just? Does common reason tell you
they ought to pay equal tithes, at the same time
having their own clergy to support ? I do not wish
it to he understood, that tithes should be done
away with, without something being substituted iii
their place. Protestant Dissenters have as much
complained as Catholics, •on account of the op-
pression; and, although it has been two years
since I first bruitght forward this subject, there
has not been a single publication from the clergy
contradicting it. I would wish it to be recol-
lected, that the pay of the labourer is not such
that he can exist on aid pay tithes. It is much
better in this country, and not that strew, but the
peasantry here are much better this. have !.otter
wayrs„ and are entitled ro-purish relief. Besides,
the clergy iu Ireland employ pitmans to collect
their tithes for them, while in this country they
do it themselves; which brought the poor in a much
worse conilitiem ; for iiirtead of hawing to act with
a divine, a gentleinuo, and a malt of feeling,
front his profeesion, they hod to submit themselves
to the griping hand of a paltry attorney, or of
a parish clerk. These are circumstance'', which,
I contend, put the pra,antry of Ireland on very dif-
ferent terms from those of this country.—(Hear.)
The Irish Legirlatitre passed laws on thus question
• I they came to a endo,hut what effect had they ?
only to hriiig round the system of farmers or proc-
tors. :lily wish, ray hope, and all (desire is. that I
could ars 'haw the laws of the two countries—
(Hear.)—lii this country the tithe on flax wae.ooly
five shilling., and in 'rebind it war eight shillings
per acre, although it 11,41 s the rtaiiir manufacture of
the country. I will leave to the candour of say
lloomorahle it this is as it should he?
hove heard of acts to-rimmed by those agent* of
the Clergy, which make. toe shudder. Ilut I will
nut take up the time of the. House in arguing, or
commenting on them.--(Hear, hear, hear.)—
Ther, is a fact, which ought to he well coneirlered.
that this country eitiiiiiit supply grain for her own
con+ntnpuuu; bear./—I Mesa England.
And line would she have been, if Ireland had got
supplied her in 'Will, when the Baltic was doled
I will come closer to thr preecut period. If Ire.
land ILA wit supplied 800.000 cpsarterna
of grain ? The inference, Sii, that I shall
draw front it is, that a much greater might be
supplied from that country, if they were in..re en-
couraged. It is not my inteutiaii to interfere
with the tithes of this country. It was last year
objected, that I did got come forward with any spe-

•
cific plan ; neither is it my intention nod ; it my wish that a et:s=3ll tr.e d 8 --I
inquire into every circumstance.e I app„
40,"f•:.
s. my desire, my plats, that the
c°pat"roCiriSia;l (rl"l:l;iris‘." iliac.
should get rid of the pay silent of tithe. tn I el trident Clergy. I wiih. at the same tnne, the \
have every equindent. There am many ii th which .prevent tithes being so acceptal,:i. 1,11,'
tp e' tier eorillorte:atincdeuasstottonitdlutso
first necessuryldep, in my opildeth to be
is to is...engin the amount of benefices so krn
eis that tier'
Treasury may have full knowledge of theta and let the nation provide for them out of cot
tingent expenses. The entire number of tit:
Clergy amounted to thirteen thousand, and,
oa
the heat calculation which could be made, their
revenues were 500,8001. n-year. I would re-
commend, instead of its being paid in the manor
thut a is, it ought to be taken into the generalae.
count of the nation, which will secure the Cler iv'e
salary from the casualty of the depreciation of
eery. 4 feel a conviction in my mind, that t ht. tel.a.
sure wouldafford effectual relief, and wool et),
ate the people of Ireland to the measores
the rights of the Clergy ; bar I have taken them
my full consideration, and they cannot be
and the great Blackstone's opinion (Alas me out to
the assertion, for, receiving an equiveleiat; they
could not complain. I have ton omen reavert I'c
the it characters to suppose they would ; flair
minds are too much enlightened to consider it in
ti ; they, frosts educ.etion, and from their
o (mid ine (abject to this mode of pilaw
lamg,h.)-11 can uesure the blouse, env
have bald Nas4lot intended to create a WWI. I
speak a. I feel ; for I believe there is not a were
r,..pe,,,„1,1e clues or Divines in the sorld, thou the
Protestant Clergy of Ireland.--I would wish to ale
lethal.- their cave ; for how hurtful to their feeling,
moat it he. to apply to the pauper for his tithes,
when, pee lona. tare clergi man himself its is want!
But how mach more severe the case, when the
pauper had not the humane clergyman, bit' an in-
human proctor to deal with, acid its sutler crier
hardship ! lion. Gentlemen, who hove never hero
in Ireland. could not have an idea lose much the
most ireful part of its peasantry, have and are
depressed. The liie,ht Hon. Gentleouan, Member
for Dublin (Mr. Grattan), in a former Session,
made a similar motion, and proposed to rai.e
fend by county aate...onents. I do not intend to
follow that preredent ; but that it sliem;el be (lone he
general tax:insp. I will not press for say particalit
mode, but tiny would be better than the present sis-
ter'''. It may be as.erted,that persons in t he same sau-
ation as myself would feel it set ere to b: ar a gr, err
barGlell than we at present exiat under. I. far sir,
say—' No: relieve the oppressive at :le of myelin_
trymen, and the last guinea I poses' will
most willingly give up, to accomplide this gr.at 011-
ject. l'lie ;people of Ireland expected at the time of
the Union, that this great grievance would h.tve
been done assay; they thought this country had
given a pledge to that effect, and nothing could
coistince them to the contrary, belt the Parliament
doing something to alleviate their distressed situa-
tion—(JJeer, hear.)—Can it be doe Weil that it was
belil:red by the people of Ireland, at the name of
the Union. that they were to he placed on a tooting
with Esiglidimre, and that the law was to
be rqii ills el:sti Muted It would be dangerolai
to bull out it was not the case. (Hear, hear.) I
contend that it was hy the means of this eniwile-
ration being Lehi out, that the Milan waa ever ef-
fected. l icepirst. levy more, I simile! be; and iln.
plore of the House, by their vote this uiyut toshew,
that the people of Ireland were nut miss.ken, that
they had a toeing still to hang ley.—(lfear,hear )-
1 coutiou the House not to hold out too great a
mass of the ;people, sod no so mite It of the strength
of the British Empire, that they cativot expert
relief. I call upon this House, in the tisane of its
own safety. to consider well before they decide. I
wish them to remember that this is the only part of
the empire which the tyrant of the 0,0;m-a
thinks vulnerable; give them the little they aa,
and you will disappoint hint. lie will find them
invulnerable, and as strong a barrier as any in the
Empire. 1 do, therefore, move, •• That a Select
Committee should be appointed, to take nun nett
consideratiou the state of the tithes in Ireland,
and other matters relative thereto."—(Heer,hear.)
Mr. W. POLE said, it was a question which im-
premed his heart with the greatest anxiety; but the
same objection remained, that did at the time the
Hon. Gelitlelllan brought the queation forwasd be.
fore, It trail .14110:errIUS to invade a system, with-
out having sometiimg to replace it with. The
Hon. ne..tielliin was completely mistskrn in his
ides of the system of collecting the tithes in Ire.
rind. The practice of the laiiitlords heis-been to
cent the lands to the highest bidder, which often
decoyed ignorant perno in, sod the profits of the
land wuuld not bear tile rent and tithes. The
landlord encouraged the truant to oppose
the tithes, sod he become the oppressor inmead
of the clergy. Government had tried every
thing to reform the system ; they had formed
bills with that hi • ',tole yet they could net
bring them to art with effect. The Ilmomeable
Cientlemats had acknowledged, that Ise could not
propose a regular plan to do away with that which
be complaiued of, although he said be bad given it
bis full consideration. This he believed to be the
ease, and 'bat the Hon. Gentleman deserved the
thanks of his country for his 'Blatt He would
assure hilts that he was no less alive to the rehire,
and a hid undergone his most serious considers.:
tion. The Huosurable Gentleness had said,
however anxious he woo that the minds of
the people should be sattatlert, yet, he would
contend that the clergy should have full remune-
ration—this argument was a fallacy, as it was put.
titer the people in a worm state, by every thing he
had soon ;—they only pay one..taieotieth inattail of
one-tenth, as titfieiv, from the diatiolly of assessing
them. This, in the first place, would br a aluan.
bling.tiloek to the mole proposed by the Hun. Gent.
as it would oblige them to pay a loth, instead ere
gOth. There were no two part. of Ireland where the
tithes. were paid in the same way. d
This woul
he alm an objection.and might street acme enemies
oateriolle. lie believed, upon his enterer:ice. that
Iltather tire clergy, ”or their appr iprioiors, wi re too
well paid. but that the 'outlined Immo(' lila hoed of
es high a rate, that the tenant sea 1.4.4 able to bear

it. 4nd sooner theft lie should go. unpaid, he en-
... „r,,,;,A the tenant to resist the tithes. Me could
ti-. 0 see any injury that arose from leasing the tittles;
ie his opinion, it had a different effect, as it brought
the persons paying nod receiving on a snore scimitar
st bit- ;1 prevented all difference. The ma-
ten of the Hnu. Gent. went ouly to tish out little
party discords, which ought to be always kept in
oblivien. Ile iii.",t a,oin repeat, that it was•the
canting of the leases to the highest bidder that
caused the discord.
Sir JOHN NIMPOIt.T—" it is not so."
Mr. W. Pout. in coniiimetion—lt iney not be
the ruse in Wen curd, hut this he was confident
of. that it nee the case over ',so-thirds of the
islaa 1. it was It system lie deprectihel, and he trust.
when Gentlemeir spoke of the hardships the
rPle laboured under, that they would withdraw
oppres-:on, before they called upon that
,use to J. an art which would not only increase
it, hut ceise a change of system which had been
snort 11[11016411y acted In the parish
..hire he 'lad a house, the in.•umlneit let to
;„, ti•• all I i t tithes psi I by tenants, from
ease to s-year ; nut if the Hon. Gait-
heinsu's seheine wits adopted, it would destroy
one•sh td of lea income. As for the titre of taxing
the Citholi.a by a differret ninde, to au equisl ex-
tent to shat diet now mid in tithe-6,1 it was extrava-
go,,. If the Hou. Gent. meant th it the Catholic,'
wr Ot 10 ply taxes at all, let him nay to ; b„ t
it ~reitealout to !Repose to lay a Inc upon them,
for r!,..y knew not what. Tne scheme w is, in his
at, , nn inicticsble. The great grievance of
all i„ I ores, the great rent extorted by Ilse
Laura.; cud, next to that, the vexations which
arose fruit the non-resident Clergy grew ing proc-
tor•li pr. The grievances arising from the former
ceute, were oft, a imputed to the collection of the
titles, which, in point of fact, had nothing to do
with cresting them. As for the other snerre-of
burden, he misted that the Bill they had pawed
two years ago, to enforce the residenee of the
Clergy, would, in a great. measure, remedy it.
He ant Sorr, !le could not tigree with the Hon.
Geatleinsn's motion, for eoesg into a Committee ;
but noleoi something atiecitie was pointed wit fur
them to Wit I.lto VOllSlderatioll, he conetiveet that
such *step woulflllie altogether fruitless. It would
soh tend to ev.ite expectations in the people of Ire-
land, on a vague ocheturosithout the power of grit-
thein in reality. If, instead of u Committee.
the Hon. Gent. had promn.eis to hew; in a Bill ;
then he would have met him fairly. and discussed
the twitter, but Inc would not go tofisf fora remedy..
'thereby deluding the people with false hopes. The
Government were as noxious fie any individual
could he, to devise some rettellv for the evil they
aekneekelgod to exst. It hail to u. ercupied their
siteniem, and lie trusted that. during the recess,
'woe general measure of felt f might be tlevi•ed,
which wield ameliorate the coaditiou of the Irish
poor. At soy nee, by the next Session of Parl.l-
- hr believed, from their inquiries, they would
be she to sue, eithi r here is a a,tisfsctory
plan, or we have failed Vitrify in being übie to
dincoser a remedy. It was unnecessary to enter
into the Honourable Gtedleniao's calculatneis
moo th.• netuirers of thus or that class of the noon.
!atm. Thi• was not to the pimp. ee, as nil clay',
our ,1 iii the desire to remedy what might well be
rape i a eryiug evil. As for the government, lie
iumea.ed it wit, Cieir peculiar province to look to
ever!. means '0 effect t remedy, whether the
her.i•ia ate arose frem a gimerel feeling, or from
ere iiiitice Muds of ti cons:dereble
But time ohkci tee !lon Gentleman proposed to
carry is Cie mnitice was, to abolish tulles, and,
be another in to., n tritely. a tax, give the ameunt
of their net produce in the clergy. This would
create a flame °respect:mon in Ireland. met would
Ite productive of no good. Li faer, the !Inn. Gen-
tleman', theory would lot hold for five minutes.
There had heel' three other plans proposed, but
they were all liable to es strong objections as the
present, sod neither corn rents, or the leasing of
films or the selling of titles, would be found to
siswer the purpose for a hieh they were proffered.
Under these circumstunces he must oppose the
!lotion for a Committee.
S.r .1. NEWPsiRT C4lWetiltiOna of remedy
for th,ne evils heel not been held out et the time of
Ce.o inn, that measure would not have been so
reily necomplished ; Coverument having held out
thr.e exi ertations to time people of that country,
were beind to take every measure. and consult
every means of effecteig what was held out.
Bet PIM, instead air that, it was the name ex.'
Prefetioite over again. and the same offer
vu toile, as was made two year* ego, of doing
wortoing or another after the recess. But it
was not only the expectations held out to the
people of Ireland at the time of the Union, he con-
tended that they had additional claims to a modifi-
esenn of the tithes. It was not only the word of
t:I: great Statesmen who stood at the head of the
enetument at that time, but the effect of a ruo•
tum %Well followed thereon. end which had the
!fee of throwing off the burden of tithes. to wo-
od, tor the Charge, from the rich, who hail capital
1"Iffloyel in agricultural purmits, to the poor who
";.a.l melting hut their own personal labour. It was
1114
I, that um one of the inducements to the Union
the
carried into effect. It • ht • leed he id
fist is, bondmight,
said.
was give*—he dial not say there wan,
tot esm„
4t.
were
very strung inslueements were held
Were the Government then, to keep the
lefenise to the ear, 6111,1111/1 tk it to *he hope. Wes it
bt the same in this es with the Cotholi-s. With
`bola he hail offered to prove, and now offered to
ert
y
. against the Noble Lord, iso much concerned
iNtr%• L
L 94 tnis measure, that • positive e e-
vert *sit entered into ? Of this, that 'ga
Nnblel.ogrd
the.„ ,„,i .Y get es he had done of other
to contending that 15... Title his prnini.e
a`le Pert' , would hr a breeds of promise to
; ilist while be offered eme ifiioe
in one (I he had offered the re-
the PrOtivinslt% in 'mother. Wes the
"lily to be pf4l,llocteve of satisfnetinn to
o,.:l".twlions of individual., by which even the
s.,
;;e"
Hokin.goiis4
itheir 11111.1111, %IN% degraded ; and
" • Id out to them Tt9l%l:hea‘tiiil7l7.ijed ui
thet
„ " onoura • e
; —not for Hummers of secirens, but
'.'miry into the mars of pp.,,,,img •
rs Pick•vom Igril ma every side.
c dewed. it would be tufting with the

nesee-of the Empire. It was confessed that Ireland
was the weak potet, why not then adopt measures
to make it our strength ? Inquire into its grievances
and redress them. De nut postpone it from time
to there, till hope is s;ck of the delay. If Gentle-
men apposite called themselves the followers of the
great Statesman. who carried the measure of the
union; it behoved thon to keep inviolate his pro-
mises. These promises were not illusory in the
mind of that illustrious Iberian, and it was the duty
of his pretended disciples, to carry them into ef-
fect. Titer had no right to shield themselves adder
his name, unless they were ready to fulfil his word.
He would now enter, as shortly as he could, into
it-z.,:1 of this business. The Right Mimeo.
aide trestlernais opposite (Mr. W. Pole) was, in his
opinion, extremely wrong in founding his argument
on this, that all the Irish Gentry are most avari-
cious, raising phi it rents to the utmost limit, and
thereby begetting a feeling of reu'utanett ill the
tenett, towards the clergy, for exactiog dues
they were so ill able to pay, after dis.•harging
the gee:out imp mew; of their
lie could not see how the house could inter-
fere in the letting of law's, even et higher rates
than they were worth, between landlord* and te-
nants. But, b-cease they could not remedy this,
it was no reason why they should not remedy what
Nab within their power. The !tight Hew Gentle-
man had spoken of the eatitiag of lands iu the
county of Waterford; for hinieelf, he could say,
that lie had never canted an acre in the coarse of
his life, nor had he ever turned out an old tenant.
The Right Hon. Gr.ntleman had stated what was
done in his p inch; and, as it was but fait to set
our parish against another. he would state what
W. 14 the ease hi the parish where he resided. The
effects of • trial of the system recommended by ha
lion. Friend (Mr. Parnell) was to throw upon the
rich the burden before altogether borne by the
pour. By a general tax on pleasure grounds, ite.
they had lightened the tax on arable lends, and
the ground where potatoes were cultivated. Then,
why might nut this system be extended throughout
the country, of which every corner might be
made to participate in the benefit? Why might
not clergymen be content to receive the MUe sum.
in peeve awl comfort, they now obtained through
everlasting turmoils and disputes? As the tithe
system at present existed, no part of it was favour-
able to the Protestaut Religion. It would never ex-
tend it. The letting of the smeller truants to cote
rates vi,:s not calculated to promote the intereets of
religion ; indeed it hod quite a contrary effect. As
for the Reese Hon. Gent's argoineat coneernieg
;trotters, it was not correct. for they were employed
by the resident. as well as the non-resident clergy.
lie had coioulteil many clergymen on this subject,
aid, emote( others, one most valuable authority.
who had been resident io his parish for t years.
goal he bad said, that if a clergyman for one year
collected the tithes of his perish, lie woulit, from a
view of the disasters and distresses it 0 'OW 'med. he
an adeecate for commutation eve ifterwerds. By
these proctors a treat sum wo: :everted front the
pockets ,if the , in icitations law suits, See.
%inch never came Lito the sands of the Clergy:-
ma:.. Tie mode too i. which these proctors often
concluded their bargains vibe the tenato•y was
very procinctoo of oppression. They would call
a meeting at the ale-hease, kept by their
brother, their tephese, etimeerelation. awl there
feed at the espeoae of time periehion—s. Other
meeting. of the same kind frequently -iok pie e
before the agreement was concluded. apd at iength
it was terminate:!. after dinner, when the ri-
santry were half-drunk, and unable to attend to
their own interests. It was thus that a can? was
called in Sligo. and the tithes sold to the WA-
est bidders; from the conclusion of which malty
disturbances ensued. The measure now pro.
posed did not affect the Clergy. if they had
an equal income. they could not he interested
in the mode in which it was raised • and he knew
that many of the higher order condemned and ab-
horred the exiseing system. For these, and many
other reasons, it was, that they called on Govern-
ment to remedy that vicious system. It was ad-
mitted by all to be wrong; therefore, they ought
to have a remedy. But the Right Hots. Gentleman
opposite said, •• No ! Do not inquire. Trust to
me, and, by next Session, I will propose a measure
of redress." For his pint, he would rather trust to the
colleetive wisdom of 65$ Members of Parliament.
—lt was also said by the Right Hon. Gentleman.
tt do not hold out expectations which may never be
realized." This came very ill from those who had
held expectations to induce a nation to make the
greatest sacrifice a notion could make. They were
also told to wait for a year. Would these Gentle-
men be able to persuade a foreign enemy to wait?
Would it not be better to heal and consolidate the
empire against all external attacks. Were one great
part of it to hive no inducement, but 'proses.a
thrown out and never made gowl ? Were they to
be told, without inquiry. that remedy was imprac-
ticable. As for his Hon. Friend Oft Parnell), he
did not say what was imputed to him. He mid
that the Catholics would pay, in an indirect man-
ner, the 11110 C rate more cheerfully than they
would pay it directly to a Protest .nt Clergyman.—
Tuts argument was held good by the example of
that reapecialsle body of men, the Quakers, who
paid more than they would do, were they compelled
to pay direct tithes. The Right Hon. Gelit had
also urged the inequality of the collection of
tithes. This very inequality was whet was com-
plained of. In one parish they took tithe on po-
inters*, which was not done in another. In one
part there w is a modal to relieve the tithe of flex,
which was uut allowed in other parts. These were
grievance. mind :t was hollered strange to hear them
now arldoced as reasons fur not complaining.
Ile would not enter halo a detail of particular
facts ; hie he knew many of the parochial
clergy of Ireland, who, bet from the dreiel of
offeitiling ,he superior and controuliug powers,
isoiald be ready to mote their being entire-
ly tivouralile to the system of his Hon. Fnesocl.—
The I leisse of Co: ttttt ens were twit fully acquainted
with all the circnnittencrs attinding this Irish
qoestion,"and, therefore. were not able to apply the
necessary remedy. But isilniry would give them
toll itiformatioo, and then they might come to a
just decision. A. for its creating • flame of expect-
ation. this was the usual and generul objection.—
The contrary was the cise.--otr when the peo-
ple saw that the House was is earnest, prosecuting

measures fur their relief, they would be satisfied.
They would be satisfied, even thousch the result
should he tliot no remedy could he fouitd. If the
otter course Wag pursued, uud iiiqu,ry stifled. it
would be the source of rooted and bitter dowels-
teals.

Mr. W. Pout, in explanation, said, as ■n Irish-
man and an acquaintance. he waft vet the Right
lion. Baronet right to two points.—lie never
meant to throw a slur on the resin.. tattle Gentry of
Ireland. It was those to whom they let their loads
for their !wet—those low, wirt,lle omen, who emoted
the tithes, that the evils he allowed to arise iii that
respect, were t 4 be imputed. dtikfor the county of
Waterford, he nail nu inteutioit of alluJiing to any
individual, but merely to the precise fact hr had
stated.

Mr. 1.. Fosrea thought it better to endure some
evils than attempt to remedy them, unless a di-
gested plan were laid rinwn to proceed upon. Such
a plan he had not sets in any speech he had heard.
(el lettg4.)—The Hon. Geotleinsii opposite hail
argued ou general principles. His first general
principle was the abolition of tithes; his second
was, that the Treasuty should pay the lay impro-
prietors ; his third, that a tax should be shbsti.
tatted for the presrot tithes. These were all spe-
culatiops, in which the hopes of the projector must
he disspiminted ; and, thetelore, he ass overlie from
giving them ony wine Wu or countenance, by irenili,g
them for consider-4Tb,, to a Committee. No doubt
tithes were felt rs a 3 inconvenience; so were rent,
taxes, ate.; still they most be borne, sod it was folly
to contend against theta. Gentlemen in this House.
arguing from their knowledge of the practice in
England, were apt to have a very erroneous opinion
of toe system of tithes in Leland. In that country
small tithes were isoknown, and the agistineot of
tithes exempted pasture, lands from any payment.
A third of the property belonged to lay impropria-
tors; and in this soy change would hr severely felt,
and create much confusion ; for in these the pro-
perty had fur ceaturito descended from father
to eon, and were the foundation of family settle-
ments. The House he was sure wonlj he cautious
in interfi ring with such property, and therefore the
legislation now proposed would. he exclusively sp.
plied to the other two.thirds. The Hon. Gentle-
man, then adverted to the Act of the Irish l'silia-
meat in 1735 G. by which those demanding the
tithe of agistment were declrred enemies to their
country. This act he condemned severely.** hav-
ing diverted the arable into pasture land, end there-
by being inimical to the population and civil:solos
of the country. by it the tax passed from the rich
grainer, and, fell upon the potatoe garden. It was
possible, that those who approved of thus taking
one-half from the Clergy, might wish to take the
whole; but to him it apveared much better lo re-
store the part taken away, than, b 7 secret sisessores,
to form a substitute for the remainder. He would
stand by what was left them. He, as much as say
mad, deplored the system of proctorage; but he
could see no legislative measure to redit!•e it. In
itself. he was happy to observe it carried the geed.
of decay. In Irelind, it appeared. from the report
before them, there were I,ISO benefices, on which
tiiere were only 740 glebe-bouees, sad SOO of the
Clergy were uon-resident. The late Act was, no
doubt, very salutary ; but, till the glebo-houses
acre completed (which active eitertMos were em-
ployed is carrying into effete), complete warideurse
could not be expected. As this succeeded. the
prectorage would consequently decay. Ho was
ready to go hand iu hand in any Morsel amend-
ment that could be proposed, bat would rather
wait for the grader"l effect of the system, than go in-
ter a Committee to enetiorege rash sad unfounded
which us* 00 in dleaPristsalsit
mod die-
cont eat.

Mr. Mesons agreed perfectly with the lion.
Moser of the question. If the statement of the
Right Hoe. Gentleman (Mr. W. Pole) was cor-
rect. it would act as au eternal barrier to the coat-
mutation of tithes. For he had said the clergy
had Dow only one-twentieth, instead of one-tenth,
which they ought to have; End that any change
mast revert to their original claim. Ose-tenth of
the produce was oneeiath of the whole value of
the Isnd ; sad he would my, were this to be allow-
ed for the performance of clerical duties, it were
tuuch better, instead of the exactions, to do away
with the law itself. He had one other great objec-
tion to the system of tithes—they fell on the indus-
trious, and spared the idle. He wished a Commit-
tee to be appointed ; as, however it might now
be urged to the contrary, he was convinced,
better mode of tithing. than that now aiming.
might be devised. He concloded by warmly pa-
oegyrising the motion. ascakulated to produce the
utmost benefit to Ireland.
Mr. M. FlTZGaltal.o had been instructed most
earnestly by his constituents, to iinpremi the neces-
sity of this matter upon the House. Had the pres-
sure of tithes not been in general very severely
felt. he could not have had such instructions from
a county, which. from its nature. was as little liable
to them as any in the country. He gave his most
cordial support to the Hon. Mover, who had stated
many aggravated facts, which were sufficient to in-
duce even the friends of thetithing system to call for
inquiry. He therefore hoped the Mime would not
withhold it. In their arguments, the Hon. Gentle-
men opposite had confined themselves to the plan
of his Hon. Frievd„ but they ought to hare an-
swered the numerous oh lions thrown out by
him, which were in themselves stifficieut to demand
inquiry. There were many plans of redress, but
the fact was, there dial exist a great evil, and if a
Committee was appointed, and should earn report
that no remedy could he discovered, that wasted
satisfy and induce the Insli people to submit to
their sufferings. But Ministers asking them to put
olltill next Session, aid to trust to th-ir inquiry,
wa. to ask them to trust to what had already de-
ceived them year after year. This had been a stale
practice in the Ireih Parliiiaent fee 45 years...—
It was ever, tt do not agitate the public mind
while yin have no digested plan," but this was pois-
on g the qtte.tion for liver. As for eliciting a
II line of expeetminai. he was desirous of seeing it
excite". It world he a new fl.m e, and totally
(111fi•re.,t from tile Amine of despair, which would he
excited, sbn.tld the llotiew of Commons reject
inquiry eltn4ether. lialuiry they Palled lir,
le emu, tithe, were mint levied iii Ireland as
to Finland ; because the same el ass of persons
did not pay theta ; because they fell upon the

- •
poor; breenm these poor had net A* seestt
1.441 remedies ; end, from the terror of seeplying '
roe redre.4 to the Spiritual ,Court., were drives to
essicrii.to i•ivi: ..seetencts, on. !which the Proctor 1•.
tied ensue. .81.1 again mei the people. Iu Ireland •
the Clinritt F.,:ablishinent was sups.ort•A by the •
same ClaS4 people who in this coitus my were the
UlijVC" paris.liial relief, and were placed it. the •
poor-hother. lit England the tithes were
ilui.l by
the rich, who had capital. ntachinttry. and We"'
extent of land. In Ireland they were paid hy the
poor, without cupital, and whose only Lasciusirry
to cultivate e small spot of ground, aye
the sinews of themselves and sons: A *abet
for one of the most arable counties iq Ragland.
(Mr. Coke, of Norfolk) had complained of she
tithes being to the amount of ss. en sere. Lot
whet would they think. when they wets mid that
wheat in Ireland ;slid two guieeeicatirl potatoes
31a. an acre ? : The Hen. Gentleman then etowered
the arguments of the lest speaker but one, at to '
the egistmniit in 1736. This, he contended, ass
an argument fir, instead of against imentry ; N. it
made all the capital farmers withdraw from arable
to pasture faresing ; the remedy israposett by this •
Ipso. Gentleman was to extend the tithes again
to the posture land. In his opinica this wee no re-
medy. It would be to double the income of she
clergy. without relieving those now bardened• The
idea wm preposterens and even had not the matter
been settled by the union. the Hoe. Offitieil"a
would Ind it extremely dillicult to preyed on Pa .
litmesit to double the revenues of the Chage 1.
They were already sbeedintle paid; it wN it de-
cent to call on the poor to pay the Prot. cent Cie
gyman, who was not even expected to perfsnu a
single clerical ditty. a Imptisme or • burial fur then.
To prove this. the Hon. Gentleman reed an ex r •et
from is pamphlet, published in 17/17, wl•ich hr iin.
pitted to a Leern.ol and Right Hon. Doctor on the
other side (Dr. Duigenan. who celled on him
,te
name the work.) fie then went into n statement
of the original revenues of the cle-ey, whic.h
calculated were not more than half sit the *Mir, .r
teeth. the remeherler being expende I in the evettee
and repsi•• of their slurs-he*, ato. which sere very
expensive buildings. Ht perfectly coocerre I is ,
the opinion, that the clergy should he Jibe slay
provided for ; hut could not sequie•ce in the pa-
postal that their emoluments should arise from si e
misery of the people. He wished .thst the Home
would act upon entlonal principles, mud ceosidfr
that such n mode of draining the country iris com-
pletely inconsistent with justice. efeendly if the
present condition of Ireland was at all no object et
attention.

Mr. WILLIAM Fl TIGIMALD wished that as in-
quiry should he sustituteil, of a candid and l.rti.
mite nature, hut different from the Hoe. Gestic..
man. who had proposed the mallet% as to the-
grounds upon which it should be supported.
Mr. Ga&ream stated, that it was passible far
the (;porch to he too rich for the viiple. It was • ;
impossible. in iisteocy et- neeptiety, that the
Protestant Church should be allowed wise teeth of
the produce of the !sod. He would certainly day I$
down as a first principle. that the Aimed es- •
mire no diminution cfetoolument ; salsas ast cond. ,
that they shield be secure from say cousequeisee
of the •deweciatiou of the *ales of sieelef bet
those emoluments should set ones !toss the *bk..
Thtifllffight tiaVelfis:lll Sae Morris tbei#f for • -
the eratilicatioa of a silly imbitisio...a as tt) to J
which be believed the Pvetestaut Clergy hod ao cigar. •
But bow nligbt the mosey. for the drlebaille of
these emoluments be *thinner procured? It mosey
could be raised few the improvement of lands. tr.
might it spot be raised with equal propriety by the
same mains for the subsineisett of the Clergy ez...
And bow would the Protestant Clergymen be he- .
twitted by the system of raising their allowance by •
tax, instead of by tithe ? They would be rated frees •
the repetition of the dirty doings in which they bed
been engaged with their parishioners. trivia niter-
fend with, and tarnished their religions overshoes.
But it was also considered with abhorrence by the •
lower class of people of a differint religion su •
Ireland, who bad their share in the distress which it
entailed. It should be a animas care of that Hou.e
that the Clergymen should not be indebted tea gall.
iog and griping collection for their support. that they
should be secured frets the wretched tithe, and
from the pitiful ambition d living by tithes. Tha
Protestant Clergymen appeared to him to be a mo-
derate set of men. and, so means, tosettable ;
but of the Proctor, who follows his nature when lie
grinds, be had I very different opinion. Upon the
Catholics of Ireland, the weight arising free the .
tithes fell with the greatest Nee, and were, moiler
every circumstance. of terrible oppiession. But.
even if there appeared no very great chance of the
efficacy of an inquiry. in remedying the evils which
had been tai loudly complained of, the Hesse ought.
at least. to shew its inclination to remove the cause • • ,
of complaint ; they ought to send the question into
a Committee, and, by that MOM.. receive the brat
information from the country itself, where those
complaints had originated ; it would be grateful to
that country, that its concerns should be examined
with minuteness by the House. which. if it could
relieve, would take sway great public calamity; and,
if it could not, the conciliating disposition evince 4 •
:7 Int would be a circanistance peculiarly
easing and satisfactory.

Dr. Unitise Aa sail, that the yrievanee of pay-
ing rent to a landlord, might as well be cempleinel
of, as that of iroying He contended, tla .t
the true crime of the poverty of the Tower chow s ..f
the people of Ireland, was very different from 01.4
had lirmi represented. Tilt people, in fart, were no;
by any meusis in such a state of indigence as had
been described. Attacks testi been made upon the
proctors ; but their oet avaricious_ Jam:tors ents!.l
never act such a manner, or he Donee ear rverr
to suppe.e. It was impossible fur a proctor tu
levy one tittle more than had been ordered by
Wm employer. And whet were tlivse tither, so
much bilk, d of? To his Imes ledge so more Oint
five 'drilling- an-erre •as I. tied ; and be
begged leave to know whether OM le an imposition
was too heavy ; and if it d,.4 not on the other heal
appear almost imagaiti. hen the imamate pro-
duce ..f th, Lnd wee. ecanettrfert ! But the orimduet
of the el, el.*, m ma kleig theme d -Maeda nixie% their
p.m...Winners was very sueltal4eist and kind ; fur,
after the tithes hail been due for same time, they
woo e.Plitrelt In t .ke a note at a year's date, for
the amount ; tins vim eat, ly a eery great