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Commission to inquire into the abuses alleged by the Hon. Mover.
He did not think the present arrangement wes liable to any. objec-
tion. Sireatemtle, a place said to belong to Durham, was situated
in the middle of York ; but he knew that in the constabulary ar-
rangements it was both declared and rated as if it wax a part of
York so mho Paker.hcan, mentioned by the 31eutber as
belonging to W iltshire, was declared • part of Berkshire.
Mr. N. ('A L\' Err said, he feared the lion. Gentleman would
find himself much hampered in making the exchanges, so as to ac-
commodate individuals.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
cnuittif RATES IN IRELAND.
J. NE‘V PORT hoped he should be able to prevail upon
litiztfoum to permit his bnnging ia a Bill for amending the Act
which regulated the levying and distribution of parish rates in
Ireland. The Act at present existing was so scandalously
evaded that it had become a dead letter. as to any control of the
ibises he should be able to satisfy the House now existed
in the management of parish rates. In the Act passed during
the reign or William and Anne, the Catholics; possessed the
same power of voting in vestries as the Proteitants, but this had
been taken away from them by the 12th of George I. ; and it was
singular to observe that the same Parliament had made it felony,
without benefit of clergy, fora priest to solemnise marriage between
a Protestant and Catholic. The Act which he sought to amend
was, he believed, the last Act of the expiring Parliament before the
13nlon—an Act which permitted the junction of parishes, some of
them 14 and 20 miles distant from each other, and which enabled
the vestries to assess the parishioners for the building and re-
pairing of churches, which they could never, by any reasonable
.peesibility, be supposed to enter. The House had last Sea-
lion rented him a Return of the sums levied from the different
litsrittba in Ireland under this Act, and he would now take the
liberty of stating a few items, which he had selected from a
mat number of the same description, that they might ace in
wind a groas manner its pow'tp were abused. It will be found
this wherever the law has defined the limits of expenditure, the
select vestries have in every case set it at defiance. For instance--
it is particularly enacted, that parish clerks should have different
%larks where the duties are performed only weekly, from what
they are to receive where it is perfermed daily. De could show that
they had not only violated this law on every occasion. but that, io
NUM instincts, they had even gone so far as Co give as much to
the weekly is Ma deity clerk, and that, too, be was sooty to say,
under the very lye of' the diocesan clergy (Hear.) fie hod not had
time to look over the whole list, but he could point out some
40 or AY abuses of their power, which he thought the House
would join him in considering of the grossest kind. In the parish
of l'hurles. in Tipperary. he found a charge of 371. for 30 yards
of crimson hangings, and 11.10 s. for crimson fringe. \What right,
he would ask, had the Catholic inhabitants—the greet majority
of the population—to pay for such things es these, for four or
five Protestant church-goers? In the town of Wexford, where
seven small rectories had been united—one of them, however,
nearly ten miles distant from the othets--there was a charge of 101.
for the parish clerk ; 10/. for early service, to the same person ;
sexton mid beadle 111., raised in 1021 to 20!., for extra service in
ringing the bell ; and immediately after we have a notice, that
funeral tolls must be discontinued, in consequence of there be-
ing no bell. (Laughter' and " Hear, (tear.") An organist, too,
is put down -for 20 guineas; a bill for carpenter's work 301. ;
and thee comes a Resolution that the clock must continue at
present without repairs, because they possess no funds. (Hear.)
In Castle Comer. in the county of' Kilkenny—and he begged
the particular attention of the House to these items--there was a
bill for carpenter's work of 22/. ; interest on the above bill, two
lguineas (hear, hear); clerk and schoolmaster, 10/. ; gratuities to
m. Taylor, the above schoolmaster, six guineas. And who did
the House suppose this Wm. Taylor was? Why, the very in.
di vidual carpenter who charged upon his bill the sum of two guineas
fur interest, and who now claimed six guineas for gratuities. (Hear.)
Really Mr. W. I'a for seemed to be a very great man in the parish
of Castle Comer ; then came a charge for robes, 37/. This was the
way in which the vestry disposed of the funds they collected from
the Catholic population. When a church was about to be erected
in a parish of the Queen's County, the Marquis of Lanadown, as
an owner of some property in the parish, subscribed 401. while the
Rector, who had fur many years drawn a large income from the
parishioners, put down his name with 201. He mentioned this as
itts.74eunen of the manner in which they were in the habit of dis-
of their own funds. He would now pass to another had,
the parish church of Tuam, in the county of Galway. An Act
had been passed granting power to the Lord-Lieutenant and
Council of Ireland to incorporate a parish church with the cathedral
of any place, when the revenues might be found Insufficient for its
preservation from ruin, and it is particularly enacted that this in-
corporation should only take place in ease the church or cathedral
cannot be resorted to for divine service. This law had been grossly
abused. 'f he cathedral had been permitted to go to ruin ; but he
had no doubt the dignitarieshad not neglected their emoluments, and
instead of applying any portion of them to the repairs of the ca-
thedral, they had suffered it to fall into decay, and he thought there
was very little likelihood of its ever being repaired. This Acs, from
its terms, must, however, apply to sorce cathedral church not
situated in a town ; but the cathedral of Tuam happened to be
situated in the very centre of the town, and he certainly thought
the dignitaries should have been called upon to support their own
establishment. The Act too provided that one moiety should be
paid by the parish, and that the other should be taken from the
economic fund of the cathedral; but in Tuxtla not one farthing,
it appeared, had ever been drawn from that fund for any such
purpose. This pariah, he would observe, was composed of five
parishes, some of them more than five miles distant from each
oilier; 20 guineas were given to the clerk, when the utmost sum
permitted by the Statute was only 201.; to the sexton ten guineas;
and in 11112 there was an item of 12 quarto Prayer Books, 12
guineas ; two ditto, bound in morocco covers, 3 guineas ; all at the
expense of the Catholic population of the parish. The collector of
the rates, who received a salary of twenty pounds, had been
discharged, and • new one appointed, with a salary of thirty
pounds, and what had been the consequence of this change ?
Why, the rates, which had been 24d. were in 1823 raised to 7d., and
he would repeat, in some of these parishes there were not more
than five Protestants. Be would now give another instance—the
parish of St. Peter's, Drogheda. From 1012, the charge for sacra-
mental wine had been from 21!. to 361. a year. (Hear.) Wine, he
would repeat, for the sacrament. ( Hear, hear.) Organist, SOL ;
attending, 41 ; tuning, 10 guineas—paying the organist, he begged
them to observe, for tuning his own organ. (Hear, bear.) A boy
5 guineas; parish clerk, 301.—when the very highest suns permitted
by the present Act was IV.; sexton, in 1812. 24!.; in 1813 raised
to 30!. And now he Caine to the last,burnot the least : for rebuild.
ing, in 1813, the house of the parish-clerk and schoolmaster, and
the sexton, 4201. 10s. Did any gentleman ever recollect the sum of
429/. voted by a parish vestry to rebuild the schoolmaster's house?
Amongst the items of charge was to be found one for the improve-
ments of the church, 331. 16s. ; next to this came the charge of
1131. Ifos fur wax candles. There were various other charges which
were exceedingly exorbitant, and required correction. (Hear, hear.)
In the church in Ardee it appeared that, fur the use of the
sacrament, wine was charged at 6!. 10s. per two dozen, and at
71. for the same quantity in the following year. Now it would
be well to know how touch of this money was expended in the
religious use to which this wine was appropriated, and how much
in another way. The charge was beyond all ordinary charges—a
most irregular one. He had enumerated the abuses which had
crept into the assessment of the parish of St. (leorge. and he had !
every reason to believe that upon inquiry it would be found that a
similar opportunity existed for the correction of abuses in other
parts of Ireland. 'foe had moved more particularly with respect to
this parish, because he found, by reference to the estimate for
building (his church, that it was only 16.0001., whereas the expense
of its erection even exceeded 57,0001. Most of this money was of
course borrowed, and therefore the interest of the money thus
borrowed was a perpetual incumbrance on the parishioners. One
m her object, and a principal one of the Bill which he in.
tended to introduce, was that Roman Catholics might he
admissible to the discussions in the vestries relative to the
levying of rates on the perishes. Hitherto the custom was
to publish notice of such vestries in the chorales only ; but notice
aught robe extended to all who were interested in a proper adjust.
ment of the wawa that should be paid. lie concluded by moving
for leave to bring in a Bill for regulating the levy of church rates
in Ireland, that such levy might be conformable to law, and that
due control should be exercised over its expenditure.
Mr. GOULBURN begged to assure the lion. Baronet, that the
best assistance which Government could afford, should be given to
aid his exertions. fus- there was no object more desirable to be at.
rained than that transactions between landlord and tenant should
be retzove4 from all weep:ion, both on the one side and the other.
(Hear, hear) At the same time that he gave this general assent
and assurance to the Bill of the Right Hon. Baronet, lie was ap-
prehensive that some difference of opinion would arise as to the
clauses and provisions of it. lie certainly was not et that moment
prepared to meet the particular cases which had been adduced by the
Right lion. Baronet, as to the abuses which he asserted to prevail
insome districts ; lie would only say, that charges were in frequent
instances made on the parish Mr the improvement and embellish.
ment of Roman Catholic Chapels and other places of religious
worship, besides the Church of the Established religion of the
country. (Hear, hear.) He would gladly go into the consideration
of the Bill, but begged to reserve himself as to its clauses, for its
progress to its future stages thmugh thc House.
'l'he motion was then put and agreed to.
LANDLORD AND TENANT IN IRELAND.
Sir HENRY PARNELL rose to introduce a Bill to amend
the Law of Landlord and Tenant in Ireland. That many defects
existed In this branch of the law would be acknowledged on all
hands, and therelore the necessity of a remedy would be easily
admitted also. In the first instance, he was anxious to disclaim
any intention of interfering in any degree with the rent that might
be agreed upon between landlord and tenant. He was desirous
rather of directing the attention of the House to the subdivision
of farms in Ireland, and to the evils of which that subdivision was
productive. The excerive population of Ireland was alleged to be
one rut thegreat grievances orthat country ; that excessive population
ems in a great degree owing to this subdivision, the mischiefs of
which it was the oluect of this Bill to remedy. According to the
evidence lately laid before the House, it appeared that in many in-
stances labourers only received fourpence a day as payment foe their
work. This was certainly owing to excessive population ; if they
were properly paid, the price of labour ought to be, according to a
moderate calculation, at least a shilling. As to the law pleventing
alienation, the juries wets generally disinclined to favour then',
and the Judges evinced a similar disinclination. This appeared
from the evidence of Sir. Blacker, an authority of no inconsider-
able weight on Irish affairs. lie could wish to see the people
of Ireland enjoy advantages equal to those which were en.
joyed by the people of Scotland, in respect to this department of
the law. By the appointment of a Committee to inquire, some
practical measure would, is his opiniou, result for its ameliora.

tion ; and he was thertfore dogmas that such a Committee should
be appointed. lie concluded by moving for leave to bring in a
Bill to Amend the Law of Landlord and Tenant in Ireland.
Mr. CA I.VERT seconded the motion.
Mr. II GATE was desirous of supporting the Bill, as its object.
in his eminent, went to prevent the interference between landlord
and tenant in the adjustment of the amount of rent to be paid for
land. It went to regulate this point, which was, in his opinion, of
the utmost importune-.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that the object of the Bill was not to
interfere between landlord and tenant, but to prevent the subdivision
of land, which eau an evil of most extensive mischief: It fre-
quently occurred that land was subdivided amongst several under-
tenants in Ireland, to the great injury of the landlord and the im-
poverishment of the tenant. For instance. a landlord lets a certain
portion of ground to a tenant, and he does not farm it himself, but
lets it to tenants under him. The consequence of such a System
invariably was, that the landlord was not paid--that the tenant was
not paid—that he scarcely had the comforts of life, and not even
the means of subsistence. This was a crying evil, which the pre-
sent Bill was intended, and he believed would effzetually remedy.
(Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. CALVERT, and an lion. Member
under the gallery, whose name we could not learn, leave was
granted for the introduction of a Bill to regulate the under-
letting of tenements in Ireland.
THI: MAGISTRACY OF IRELAND.
Sir IT. PA RNELI, was unwilling again to trespass on the atten-
tion of the House, but the Magistracy of Ireland was a subject of
so much importance, that he would, he was satisfied, be excused i
in bringing it before the attention of the House. lie did not meat
to impute censure to the body of the Magistracy, but there cer-
tainly was a very great opportunity of improvement in that depart-
ment of the administration of justice in Ireland. One measure of
the Marquis of Wellesley called fur the especial approval of the
House—that was the appointment of a bench of Magistrates to sit
at Petty Sessions. No meaaure could be more productive of real
improvement, and real advantage to the people of Ireland, titan
the institution of such Sessiona, to bring forward the gentlemen of
the country to administer justice in the local districts over which they
presided. One object of the Bill which he should call upon the
House to pass, would be to empower the Noble Marquis to carry
!fits measure into complete effect. Besides this, another object to
be accomplishod by the Bill was to get rid of that unfit measure
which was now contemplated. lie was quite satisfied of the ma.
dequacy of that measure to do justice on the present occasion. He
was certain, that if the office of Justice of the Peace was left in
the hands of those who were fit to discharge its duties, there would
he a great increase of that respectable body. But he knew it
might be answered, that the administration of justice in Ireland
could not go on it so many of those who now were tilling the of-
fice of Magistrate were to be rendered ineligible. But he wculd
maintain that no such a case would occur; and if difficulties did
arise, of all the ways in the world to meet those difficulties, was
that the best which went to e'.ect men unfit for the office ? But such
had been the course pursued in Ireland. No fit person being able
to be elected, therefore unfit persons were chosen. Ile did not
mean to say this was the case in all parts of Ireland ; but It
certainly was in many. He was ready. to admit that in some
parts no fault was to be found in the Magistracy, but by the evi-
dence before the Committee of last year there appeared a great
deal wanted to lie done in the regulation of the office of Ma.
gistrate in that country. He had no intention, howcven of calling
upon the House to sanction any specific measure. If the House
should but think fit to bring in a Bill on the subjtct he should be'
satisfied; all that he required was, that some earnest should be
given that the subject should have some consideration before the
present Session passed away. If this were done, he would leave
the details of the measure to the Committee • contenting himself
with stating this fact—that there ought to be greater number of
Maistrates introduced into Ireland, and that a new principle
ought also to be introduced to regulate that body. The Honour-
able Baronet concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bi:1 to
regulate the office of Justice of the Peace in Ireland.
Mr. GOULBURN said, he had no wish to interfere with the
present measure, but he thought himself bound in fairness to the
Honourable Baronet to state, that, by giving his assent to the pre-
sent motion, he (Mr. Goulburn) should not consider himself at all
bound to support the provisions of the Bill hereafter ; and, he would
now say, that, if the regulation, which he bad heard it reported was
to be entbraced by the Bill, for compelling the attendance of the
Magistrates at the Petty Sessions, was intended to be introduced,
he could not support it, as he should consider it very bard upon the
3lagistrates, and an unjust reflection upon their character. He could
assure the Honourable Baronet, that the subject respecting the at.
tendance of Justices at the Petty Sessions had been under the
serious consideration of the Irish Government. It had been
submitted to the Law Officers and to many of the Judge*, who had
i
expressed their opinions with regard to t ; and the reason why he
(Mr. Goulburn) had not submitted a Bill to the House upon the
measure was, because it was considered that at the present moment
such a course was inexpedient. Of course, by going into an in-
quiry before a Committee, the facts would be more satisfactorily as.
certained, and it would lead to this question—whether the Honour-
aLle Baronet was right in bringing forward the measure now or not?
With respect to the other pant, as to the further revision of the
filagistracy, he thought that it required consideration, although no
blame could by possibility be imputed to those in whom that power
was now vested ; on the contrary, whenever the conduct of any
Magistrate had not been sufficiently correct, the Lord Chancellor
of Ireland had invariably acted with the strictest impartiality ; and
he (Mr. Goulbum) was sure, that on all occasions that Nobl and
Learned person would act on the same strict prirciple of lair deal.
ing towards the whole Magistracy of that country. He (Mr. U.)
should not trouble the House any further at ptesent, but reserve
himself for farther observations in the Committee as should appear
to him to be necessary.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, he took the opportunity to
speak to the House, more particularly with a view ro pant out what
appeared to him to be a ter y desirable thing to be accomplished—
be meant the substitution fir the present petty Governments and
Councils, which existed in many parts of Ireland, of a person to
be invested with a power OVir all the Magistrates of each county,
in like manner as the Lords Lieutenant of England presided over
those of this country. Many counties in Ireland were subdivided
almost ad infinitam. This was a great evil, and he thought
ought to be remedied. He merely threw this out as a suggestions
worthy to be considered; having himself thought much on the
subject, and conversed with many friends whose opinions agreed
with his own, lie certainly did conceive that such a regulation
would be beneficial to the country. lie therefore hoped it would
be deemed worthy the consideration of the Committee.
Mr. SPRING RICE said, that is any notion existed of intro-
ducing into the Bill • power to appoint an officer, to be paid,
who should pmide in_ the Courts of Petty Sessions, then lie must
werentleemiatni woucarditelixf snugch
towere
the t&mnitisLocan.selleiewwontr :uteri
rather submit to a temporary inconvenience than adopt a measure
that would operate as a bar to all future improvements in the
Magistracy of Ireland. As to giving publicity to these Courts,
by requiring them to adopt certain kerns in their proceedings,
and recording their acts, and, above all, to regulate their system
of fees: for the Magistrates in Ireland were wholly ignorant of
what their clerks were entitled to receive ; and they had consulted
51r. Justice Torten% Mr. Blackburn, and many other authorities
on the subject, all of whom had told them, all they could do
wax, to give some advice at present, but that the law was In
such a state that it was impossible to say what fees the
officers of a Justice of the Peace could legally claim. Now, if
the Bill went to do all this, then he would so far give it his
support.
Mr. GRATTAN said, he regretted that the Honourable Baronet
(Sir H. Parnell) did not apprise the House, what his object was,
when be made his former motion, as it would then have enabled
Honourable Members to judge of the propriety of agreeing to their
voting for the Introduction of thse Bill respecting Landlords and
Temente. As to the appointing an officer with • salary to preside
at the Sessions, it would in his (Mr. Grattan's) opinion, be a most
injurious thing, and perfectly intolerable.
Mr. CAREW also objected to a paid magistracy, as being cal.
etdated to effect much injury to Ireland.
Sir H. PARNELL begged to nay, that his object for not enter.
ing into more minute details, as to the objects of the former Bill,
was to spare the patience of the House, as lie considered it would
be better to leave it to the Committee, than occupy the attention
of Honourable Members unnecessarily. With regard also to the
Bill now under the consideration of the House, lie had forborne
to enter into particulars from the same motive. He begged to ssy,
that with regard to one part of the Bill he had been mist:tide:stood.
He did not mean to soy that the magistrates should be compelled to
atiansi.ehe patty susioas what he meant was, that they should
be prevented from carrying on magisterial business at their own
houses, which was one ground of complaint against that. body.
Mr. LESLIE FOSTER, sa,dhe could not comprehend why any
individual should anticipate the Committee which had already been
appointed to inquire into the state of Ire:and, by introducing two
measures into this House, which as yet it it was not known whether
that Committee would agree to. He thought the object of the two
of the Hon. Baronet were involved in the inquiries of that
Committee, and that it would have been better to wait fur their
Report, in ceder to learn what was their opinion upon those points.
With regard to the report which had been alluded to by the Hon.
Member for Limerick (Mr. S. Rice), which stated tt.at it was in-
tended to introduce a paid officer into the Court of petty Session,
he (Mr. L. Foster) must altogether dissent from it, and more
especially if that paid officer was not a Magistrate hunseif, and
who could not be very eminent in his own profession ; for such a
duty would be incompatible with a high station in the law. The
effect of such a measure would be a withdrawing of all the respect-
able portion of the Magistracy. lie coafessed that he was prepared
to teceive the Ball of the Hou. Bari net with great distrust.
Lord MILTON said, he was induced to rise in consequence of
what had fallen from the Hon. Member who had just sat down,
with regard to the propriety of the Hon. Baronet (Sir H. Parnell)
introducing these two Bills, while the Committee were sitting up
stairs. If Gentlenien were to be precluded from bringing any
question before die House respecting Ireland, but were to leave it
to the Committee up stairs, then he conceived that such a comer
would, in effect, be devolving upon that Committee the whole
government of Ireland. He thought it was quite competent for
any Member to introduce a measure respecting Ireland, notwith-
standing that Committee.
Capt. O'GRADY said, that as far as regarded the Magistracy
of the county which he had the honour to represent (Limerick),
he could testify to their attending to the interests of the county
within their juriadiction with the greatest promptitude, and that
they had on all occasions done their duty. If this Bill went to in-
troduce a paid magistracy, its effect would be not to regulate the
Magistrates, bus to put them aside altogether ; for every Gentleman
would, he was confilert, withdraw himself from the Commisolon ;
he, fig- ore, should corti.aue to act with tie greatest reluctuce.
Leave given.

~~~
I'

SEWER LAWS.
Sir ROBERT HERON said, he should best consult the wishts
of the House if he merely moved for leave to bring in the Bill of
which be had given notice, reserving to a future occasion such ex-
planations as should be necessary to be given by him. He then
moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law relating to
Sewer.—Leave given.
IRISH UNLAWFUL SOCIETIES BILL.
The Order of the Day having been read for the House resolvieg
Itself into a Committee on the Irish Unlawful Societies Bill,
The S PEA KER moved that he should leave the Chair.
Mr. HUME rose and said, that before the Speaker left the
Chair, he begged to offer a few observations to the House. Fron,
the first mention of the measure before the House, he felt it was
hard against the people whom it immediately affected, and also
against Ineond at large. Every penal law was an evil, unless good
could be shown to be derived from it. One of the greatest causes
of the evils which affected Iceland, was the daily introduction rat
Bills relating to that country. %Fe were continually hearing Oct.
tlemen introducing a Bill to patch up this, and to patch up that,
instead of his Majesty's Ministers introducing some efficient mea.
sure that would ge to the root of the evil at once. No Gentleman
bad said that this Bill would be effectual. Its most earnest pea.
moters had not confidence to state that, although they hail had set.
ficent boldness to state many things Which were net possible to be
proved He thought that Ministers, by urging this measure.
were taking a most imprudent step, and one capable of
leading to great injury to the community. They had said
that Deland was in a state of great alarm ; but, instead of
saying so, they should say that a all portion only were
alarmed. Six-sevenths of the population were all united, anti
therefore they could not be in a state of alarm. It was only the
other one-seventh who had ever hitherto enjoyed the benefits of
place and profit, and they indeed might be alarmed. The state- ;
mcnts respecting Ireland had been extremely contradictory. One
Gentleman said, that day after day the proceedings of the Cathe-
lics, especially the Association, threatened the peace of the coon.
iratdandmisibnßeisitlttfe.zredgi.leouidn'ecdnsdiaredetor sprut,,,:he
try. Other Gentlemen said, never was Ireland In so tranquil a
sceedtiMemonenbeforets this
state—never
wtharle;laugweavogoeuedgic'ptifiectissotiuhonlal'lTYo
should give it all the opposition he could lit every stage. He was
aware it might pass; but he and his Hon. Friends around hi a
would have the satisfaction of knowing that they had done their •
duty, in doing what they could to prevent it. He believed, that as
far as regarded the cause of religion, it was utterly false that
the Catholics of Ireland sought to gain the ascendancy ; and he
also believed that this was made a mere pretence on the part of
those who opposed them. it had nothing whatever to do with
keeping them from virtaking of the civil rights to which they were
entitled. But the fear was, that they would deprive that small
body of Protestants who were among them of those places of cum-
lumen', mato, and trust which they had always exclusively en-
joyed. Ile( Hume) admitted, that they had certainly some
little cause for alarm in this respect. One gentleman had said,
but for the Catholic Association we should now he enjoying the
benefits arising to the country from the alterations in the Custom
and Excise laws. Now what were the grounds of the alarm which
prevented the Protestants from enjoying those benefits ? He
held in his hand a paper which showed the proportion of
the Catholics, and Protestant; who were in official situations
in the Customs and Excise, and this statement sufficiently exhibited
the partiality that was shown the latter, and the manner in shin
the former were kept degraded and vilified by those who enjoyed
those offices ever them. In the Customs there were SAS Protestants
employed, and only 6 Catholics; in the Excise there were 1116 Pro-
testants, and only 14 Catholics Such was the manner is which
the Catholics of Ireland were treated. It wu not for this House
to consider this as an Irish question ; it wu an English question.
It was one which affected Englishmen much more then they
seemed to feel. We were every day receiving petitions from all •
parts of the country for a repeal of taxes. Now if it could be
shown to Englishmen that they were actually paying four mil.
lions sterling towards the Government of Ireland, and that by a
change of the protest system, which change would make that coon.
try quiet and happy, it would enable the Ministers to take away
a million and a half sterling, which was now used to keep down tl.ot
people, would it not be obvious that BO much would bestially aura
to the people of England ? But further, were the people of Irela-id .
placed in that situation in which they ought robe placed, the revs-
nue of that country would be increased, and a further reduction et
our taxes could take place. The present state of Ireland was ace.
tirely the result of that abominable system of exclusion which had
been so long observed towards the Catholics, even in those sitpa.
,tions which the law allowed them to fill. The Ministers were :et
sincere in their professions of good-will towards that body of people,
or they would not sanction this species of preference. He though:
that a clear case bad been made out in support of the assertive,
that the Government of this country had long acted with oppres.
sion towards the people of Ireland. That oppression they were
about to perpetuate, but it would in some degree lessen the evil so
bring all associations under the same laws as those that were meant
to be applied to the Catholic Association. He would thertfore
move, that instructions be given to the Committee to introduce into
the Bill, for the prevention of all unlawful assemblies, a clause to
oblige all persons accepting office under the Government to make
oath that they do not belong to any society which the Act deems
illegal, and that they never will belong to any such society.
The SPEAKER observed, that by the motion of the Hoc.
Member (Mr. Hume), to give instructions to the Committee to
traduce a clause into the Bill, a power would be given to the Coe.
wince of doing nothing more titan they were already empowered to
•do. The Hon. Member, however, might not be aware that there
was to necessity for any such instruction.
Some conversation on this point arose between the SPEAEED
and Mr. Ht: ME. and the SPEAKER afterwards put the quesuor,
" That instructions be given to the Committee to make provisioa
in the Bill that every person hereafter appointed to any of end
or military, under Government, shall be required to make oath
that he is not, and will not, become a member of any society rude
unlawful by the present Bill, or of any other unlawful society
whatsoever.
Alt. GOULEURN observed, that at no very distant day the
House would hare a full opportunity of entering into the facts en
the subject now in the course of debate. With respect to the Bill
row betore the House, if he had not misunderstood the sentiments
of the Honourable Members around him, and he believed be had
not misunderstood them, it was intended to make some proem:ea
egainst all unlawful societies. With respect to the clause the
Honourable Member (31e. Hume) sought to introduce into that
Bill, it was his (Mr. Goulbum's) opioian that-it would be one is
DO way likely to effect the end in view, but one that would un-
questionably be extremely objectionable. The House would re.
collect what wu the principle of that clause. It was to call upon
I any individual who was appointed to fill any office, however low it
might be, to declare upon oath that lie DM not a Member of any
society which the law declared to be illegal, and that be would not
in future become a member of any such society. If this principle
were admitted in this instance, why should it not be in more ser-
ous matters? If a person appointed to office were called upon to
state so much, why should he not be called upon to state that be is
not guilty of crimes the commission of which would subject hint
to much higher punishment ? Besides, might not a person be
often thus called upon to confess, whom it was intended afterwards
to prosecute ? He knew of no instance in which such a test was
he knew that it was not requisite in the present in-
stance. The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Hume) had said, that
it would be the means of preventing individuals from tilling public
situations who were members of any illegal body ; but even here
he (Mr. G.) conceived it would be ineffectuaL That Hoes. Member
bad stated that some time since anAct had been passed for thepreven
tlon of unlawful societies, and yet they had continued to meet under
the eyes of the Governener.t. But might not this have been caused by
such an alteration in the nature of those societies as that they had
cease to be illegal. If an individual wete called upon to take the
required oath, and were willing to continue a member of any
society, he might save himself from the penalty, and yet take the
oath, by evading the law. He saw no rearon why persons should
be called upon to take any such oath not to belong to unlawful
societies, when for being so lie might be prosecuted by the law.
Ile objected therefore to the clause ; first, because it was a new
and unprecedented mode of preventing an offence; and next, be-
cause it would not produce the objects contemplated by the Hon.
Member who proposed it. He deemed it therefore his duty to re-
sist the motion of that Honourable Member.
The Honourable G. LAMB said, that there had always been
some certain tests for persons appointed to public offices, and it
would not be improperly appointed now. 'l'he Orange Lodges
were deemed illegal by the Government, but they were encouraged
tats perpetual nomination of their members to public situations.
Tin Catholic Association had been accusedof using violent and.
unjustifiable language, but he had found nothing in the report of
their proceedings half so violent and unjustifiable as the language
of some honourable Members of that House, who had decried the
members of the Catholic Association as demagogues—and as
much worse tl:an demagogues. When two societies were declared ille-
gal by Parliament, it was of very little impartacce to Oovcrnment,
to oblige thou whom they might call to any public office, to make
oath that they did not belong, and 'mold not belong, to either o:.
those Societies. Ile did expect, toot the tone of the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Goolbtan), that he would tree ma's
soma solid objection to the motion of the Hon. Member for Aber-
deen, but nothing of the kind had been adduccd. He (Mr. 1..
Lamb) believed, that if the House of Commons sent forth this ob-
noxious Bill, without the introduction of some such clause as the
one proposed, the Catholics could never be brought to believe that
there was any sincerity in the assertion, that during the past See.
Ikon (but int: so (melanin in this) was so often echoed through the
House, that his Majesty's Government did not wish to give a
triumph to either party. lie would support the motion of his
lion. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, because of Lis conviction
that it would be the means of satisfying those who doubted the
sincerity of his Majesty's Ministers, in declaring that they did not
wish to give a triumph to either party, but would hold equally ti.•
balance of jostice.
Mr. C. 11. HUTCHINSON said, he rose to repeat the same
sentiment, and, if possible, the genie language he had used in that
House on a former occasion. Ile would not be, nor would the
Uninsurable Members around him be, shamed out of their feelings
of dislike towards this abominable measure—a measure which was
actually calculated (the Honourable Gentlemen might smile or
frown as they pleased)—acivally calculated to rouse the people of
Ireland, if not to acts of outrage, to active exertions t i put down
such men as those who had advised the King to snake such a sea:..
rent as that contained in the Speech from the Throne—thou
Royal Advisers who had proposed a measure calculated to raise the
whole population of Ireland in rebellion against it. lie did not
know how they dared to propose it, and to propose it without say
grounds--for the false statements contained in the spee:hea of the
Members on the other side of the House had been ably replied 10
and coofuted. They did not know the men with who u they Lad.
to contend ; and the. Right Hencurable Gentletuao op?osite, new

he had found ou
he should be ag
wht
welts of Mosc
ventored to stet
measure. T
is
%tit° a C t !:;
( tar. IL) did
0f di‘respFct
bind and in let
ruin, by crmtir
relieved • and
Ile would not I
would speak as
the thing. of w
rebellion by 09
list words he sl
rebellion, the t
conviction %list
martyr, and •11
to that rebeltto
When that n
heartily in put
the cruel spirit
rebels when th
landed in Helm
that country, I
the Right flor
Tisking the P
use a rebel
still going on
Span& of his
Illorwri aid ni
land, in order
put down this
beg of the tier
tar. Front UI
that there wet
for never had
ings of the
never era+ the
placed in Ii
tioi his fri
been so snail
.Association I
House should
ter.tion to trio
months. He
would justify
vartlon of tit
he begged Pa
He could for
aupport whir
Mr. FLU;
House to the
llotioursble
taking so wic
of Ireland in
case had bee
had been ma
matter rest.
motion of tl
that he was
could be, to
society into
fectly smith
not one vale
be resorted t
the method
into office
illegal none
know what
never hear,
swear to a F

would no
Tl:e Hot
the Gover
thing else
manna, I
U!, that
neat or a.
to swerve
Ittrllla of
The Hon
!lire term
tie. Conti
I re/
ditibditie
Member r
House, w
pass penal
must bast
Pecl's std
majorities
A defence
House, at
stem on hi
to the diet
(Mr. Hun

posed by
think it
person be
terious e
Autocratic'
victual lck

Society, bi
partation
subject to
office he n
hint to the
cot beton
cue he eh
duty of h
from office
for the r
Member s

trusted to
Mr. HI
rifying ani
and laugh
dangerous
the reprob
this, he st
Honoure)
argument
c:usi*n, I
aruhZig

used. the I
clangemus
did Lot MI
lion. Gen
ever, whi
wisdom at
benches.)
them trot%
M as glad c
to state t 4
illegal ass
beeN acted
at length
totenuoiis
those illeg
Friend shi
convicted
Possible ei
Sir K. I
with tallir
Friend coi
This wu
itrutute
uld gi

oc iety.
of the Hon.
nmittee to in.
n to the Com.
empowered to
are that there

he Sraatxte
the question,
ake frocision
Dy Mice, civil
o make oath
r society maxis
!awful society

istant day the
o the facts on
ect to the Bill
the sentiments
,lieved he had
ome provision
be clause the
duce into that
add be one in
at would un.
tse would re.
a to call upon
rowever low it
ember of any
he would not
this principle
e in more 'm-
ulled upon to
sate that he is
I subject hint
I a person be
dart afterwards
.uch a test was
the present in.
:ad said, that
tilling public
nit even here
Hon. Member
for thepreven.
to meet under
seen caused by
that they hail
on to take the
ember of any
d yet take the
ersons should
to unlawful
41 by the law.

it-was a new
nd next, be.
by the Hon.
tie duty to re.

always been
ffieea, and it
'range Lodges
re encouraged
)lie situations.
violent and
the report of
the language
ni decried the
gues—and as
tdecLwei
Government,
thee, to make
, to either o:
t Right Hon.
I Have ma.:•
bef for Aber.
lie (3lr.
forth this ob.
clause as the
o believe that
the past Sea-
-1 through the
sh to give a
lotion of his
.is conviction
doubted the
they did not
d equally tt •

!at the urns
used in that
r would the
t‘to:r teditio
T winch was
ght smile or
.:ie people of
i put down
such a stazi.
hriKe—those ,
d to raise the
lie did nut
without any
r:hes of the
Ir replied
o n itsy hat
p?osite. ne w