The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1821-05-12 00:00:00

STATE OF EUROPE.

On the Order of the liay being read for going
intriAbg Consinittve nl Supply-.-
Ak C. Iluscittittsuti rnw, and said he very re-
cently eirdwasoured In call the attention of the
'louse to the state of Europe. If uny thirc..7 could
'be 'more alarming, than the acts whir:ll had beets
shale by Foreign Powers, it was 110. pretensions
fete Hut forth, hating the sanction ansl au-.
ilicarry of I.is Majesty's Mtaisters in that f10w"...
A. Ilse Noble Marquis had entry forwold nod tie-
dared the sentiments of the Goveriimei,t on the
*object on Alonday last, when lie Inal no oppor-
tunity of replying to him, lie should kel it his
duty to frt'ofil bin MVO i.eleitneses oil the Jour-
nals of the house. It hail beets 101 l Weld to
have gone brut the subject at length Ibis evening,
but the Idle hour of the sight, and hiving Neu
Iripil..ttql by several Gentlemen (particularly by
Oise I ectiliarly quid:tied to take port the thictld-
loco!) to purtpurte it, lie felt it itscouihrsit on Ili Q 1
10 tootnirly with their swishes ; and though it was
tannin! to lion to defer the consideration of the
-question an lung, yet on looking to the order book,
lte could bud Lao pan slay before Tuesday, the
.23 I ft:slant, ott which slay he would have the ho-
nour to bring it forward.
ORDNANCE ECTINIATES.
Mr. HU)ME thou rose um! *AO, be could not
pinion the Smoker to ital.'s: the Chair, without
on record the situatiOit the country
drawing a comparison of the Ordnance Hatt-

of
took
• at
to

economy, but et, ...__ight he
should be able to show that the assertion was OD.
founded. That Hiinourable Gentleman lied also
spoke in the most triumphant tone of an error
which he had beee elleig.-d with, of 50,000/. ; but
it turned nut there was no error, except an error
of the Honourable Gentleman himself, in com-
paring two ruins together which lie (Mr. flume)
had nut compared. lie hail then called the atieu-
lion of the House to a comparison of the estimates;
lie had nom tin average of do.ee year., and he found
the overat t. expenditure fur 1790, 1791, and 1792,
was 473,0771. per :minim. Taking the average of
the three last year., 1818, 1819, and Iseo. he
found the animal expenditure was 1,486.606/.
being nearly three time. the amount of the
first period. The estimate* laid on the table
were suppored to be the whole amount of the ex-
penditure, but it turned out not to be the whole
by many thousend pounds. He was not aware of
nny other mode of finding nut the sums actu illy
expended but by a comparison of the Estimates
with the Annual Appropriation Act, and in 1817
the amount stated by the Estimates and the sum
appropriated nearly agreed. The Alember
then compared the Estimates of ISIS and 1819
with the Appropriation Acts of these years, and
'hewed that the sours stated in the Act+ exceeded
b, 350,090/. the Sarni voted by the Estnnetes.
He was aware that, as die whole of the sums
voted were not always expended iu one
year, balances were hronght forward; basing any
one year might therefore give fake result., but
taking sit averege of three years would, lie con-
ceived, be perfectly fair. lit the last three year,.
there was a difference of 623,067/. more expended
than appeared by the estimate submitted to the
1-Inure. This dertirepancy he iliougla he could in
some measure account for. la the estimates there
weir Ito chat g- for Ow ordnance ves.els, amounting
to 15,010/. or 16.000/. a year, and no Gentleman,
on looking to the tabulates, Could conceive that
sach 'Acre in exietriter. Thi., he thought,
was a mode of keeping the at:vomits well cal-
culated to keep the House in die datk. That,
perhaps, was one of the items compoiing the differ-
ence. A mallet. was the staff pay of the nrtillery,
amounting to 27,0001. a year. That statement
u'one *hewed the neettnity of the !louse insisting
on basing Estimates of a very different nature laid
before it. He was convinced that they bad nut us
yet more than half a view of the establishments of
the Ordnance. Ile must repeat, so far bunt any
disposition to economy having been displayed in
this delta; tinesit, there was not the smallest attention
paid to recommendations on the score of 'eduction.
The lion. Member, the Clerk of the Ordnance,
stated, on a former occasion, that there had been no
lese than 68 ufficers reduced since the preiserit
General came into the oilier; but by a return on
the table, for which he (:11r. (tams) had moved, of
all the appointmeritv tit the Ordnance Deeartment.
there appeared to be no les. than 67 introduced
biter the estiblishment who had 'lever before been
in the service. The mailegement also of the Pen-
slim List was such as ought to induce the House to
a stud raw from the Depurtment t hatconfideure ns to
thrdtstribution of the funds nt its disposal which
every public Board ought to prerseas; for while
they were making reductions they went on making
out nearly en equal number of new appointments,
so that in effect they incresscrl the weight of the
public burdens by the oniount of the pensions and
hal 1. psy given to those oho had been reduced, many
or whom were yuuiie and hail been but a very
abort aline on service, while many Of those newly
intioduced were melt advanced in years. The
claim, therefore. advanced by the Uuu. Nlember
opposite, of a disposition to economy On the part
of the Noble Duke at the hyoid of the Department,
Sass purely ideal. The floe. Member had vtated,
with an sir of triumph, that the eetimates for the
present year were reduced greatly below those of
former years, but they would be found larger than
the average of the last three years ; for if they
ridded the 'Amount of those three years together,
amid divide by three, the amount fur the present
year would be found to exceed die quarter by
40,324/. The aurouist of the estimates fur the
army appeared to be excessive; but the largeness
of the sum was cattier) by the slumbers of persons
provided fur, whereas iir the Ordnance Estimates
the NUM teas SWri:oll by the largeness of the :priories
void- to a ft,* individuals. The Ilan. Gentlemeu
concluded by moving the following resolutions:—
That the toted by Parliament far the service of Ilse
°Mosher of Great Britain and Irelasol, in the tears 1817,
1818, 1819. • nun the C.tiwai, s laid before This House, amount
au 3,764,1131/ ; that the sums entered is the Appropristi 111 l
Arts far these years amounted to :1,695,3314 nod that live
Lama suited iii the annual firtaihre sreutai.ta fur those three
,sears, as actud:ly paid fur the ludo:wee itery're, amounted
to 4,387,2411. being an excess of t 129,1071. muse !bail was
t airman. et to this House.

That the total supply voted by the Dome opan Estimates
under the different heads for the service 81 the Ordstawee,
for the years 1790, 1791, 179'2 (exclusive of the charge fur
35.0001. a-year fur Ireland), amounted to 1419,1201. being
413,042.1. uo ■o average of an se three year : That the
total puma voted fur the Ordnance in 1818, 1819, 1820,
amunuted to 3,860,8661. (tieing I,2B6.Ctitif.ou am ge of
these three years): That the E‘timate for 1821, although
53,0001. Iras iu amount that the F0411311' for Is2o. is
115,000 f. moue than the Estilll3 IC for 1819; and 40,1341.
noire in amount thou the average of the Eitimatea for 1818,
1819, ■nd 1820.
That u. the actual expeutlitore of the 0.-ditanee service
fur the years 1817,1818, 1819, fur which the finsuce accounts
have bade laid Wile this Ilusse, esceeded the estimiff es on an
average of 211,73:4. per auauar ;i heexpeases of the Ordnance
for the year 1821 roil be taken at a total of 1,534,7351.
That therefore it be a recommendation to the Committee
to effi.et every practical redaction in the Ordnance Estimates
stow laid before this Hume, fur the year 1821.
Mr. R. %VAUD raid, if the lion. Gentleman would agree
to take the debate now upon the gement qutstitiu, lie bad nu
objection, hut he should prefer that the ll.ru. 81.1alrer would
consent logo into the Committee, where he could better go
at once into the general statement, which would their regu-
larly lead to the particnlar heads of the 'simulate; and that
the Hun. Member might have the opportimily of recording
his Resolutions upturn the Juvenal', lie would in that rase
snore the previous question upon thesis.
Colonel DAVIES mid, that sa the discussion on the gene..
ralquestions was likely to employ mach lime, it was better to
take the debate before going into the Committee, !wafter
it nould be so late an hour before the drbato could be
bronchi to a clone. that be saw little probability of going
Into the Estimates with may Wee, and hofil6iikbl it would
perhaps Ise better to postpone the CUllllllillllO to MUMilly.
The Marquis of lON DON DI bitty sajd,,it was quite am- .
possible to go into a diqcussiou of MIMI, of so exiciisivc a

tialere is It Vtrefiotiosey Male ; find 10 thought that teen
the gallant Officer would find it more convenient to himself
and his Hon. Friends to discuss the subject in Committee,
than to go through a bengthenefl debate fur the purpose of
concluding with a truism which Mr Mau colloid for a to
doubt, that it was the duly of the Committer• to pay the
ntmost possible attention to economy in the grants which
might he proposed.
Mr. RERNAL said he should prefer that previous to go.
ing into the Committee some explanation should be given
at to the rause of the ewers of the animal expenditure be-
yond the votes upon the estimates of former years.
Mr. R. IVARD said, to that the answer wait extremel♦
easy indeed It proceeded iu some measure from the mode
of keeping the Ordnance accouule. It also frequently hap-
pened, and formerly much more so than at present. that
stone of the greets reinaised unexpeuded for perhaps one,
two, or three years after they had been voted; so that when
those sums came to be actually expended, they would have
the effect of swelling the amount of the expenditure of the
year in which it was ro laid out hey I that of the grant for
the same year. Fur instance, some years sett a greed was
made for fortifications is, the Islaud of Bermuda, hut the tom
voted was out laid oust fur two or three years afterwards;
and in coneequence the ■mount expended in some subsc-
q•oent year, triuhl be fonud to exceed the grant for that
year in proportion. It also happened oeessit•ally, that
sums were advanced from the civil department of the Ord-
nance to other departments, which were afterwards brought
heck into account, but would appear as • part of the ex-
penditure of the year in which the advance was made. Ad-
vanced of this kind had beetifmaile for the Preventive Ser-
vice and the Commiraariiti; they were, however, et subse-
quent periods repaid by those departments, and ■gain
placed to the debit of the °Moaner. The only mode in
which this matter could be settled was to wait until the
Expense Ledger was laitl on the table, when it would turn
out that the expenditure did nut exceed the Estimates.
Mr. H. G. HENN F.TT *aid, he could not learn from the
explanation of the Hon. Gentleman, low he was to get ewer
the fact which was startug him to the face, that the actual
expenditure on the averaer of the three years 1817-18-19.
exceeded the estimates by 207,7d51. a year. The Hon. Mini
her had plated that the irregul truly was rtrtly to he account-
ed for by the had mode of keeping the necoooti; be believed
it was so in reality, nod it was high time that such an evil
was corrected. It was what his able of the House was per-
petually clamouring about. They charged the offices with
rendering accounts in such • form as that they (the Opposi-
tion) could not understand them, and that they were not un-
derstood even by themselves. He could nut help concluding
with this simple piece of advice, that the sootier the Ordnance
Department amended the system of their accounts the better.
(Bear, hear.)
Mr. R. WARD said he should be very glad to avail him-
self of the advice of the !honourable Member to alter the
plan of the accounts.
Me. WARM.: wished the Hon. Gentleman to explain the
nature allot advances to the p live service to which he
had alluded.
Mr. R. WARD said, that the Ordnance hail been required
by the Treasury to repair and fit op the works on the roast
which they had hauled to the preventive service fur
the necOnonortation of the men employed on allure, the ex-
penses of which were afterwards repaid to the Orduauce by
the preventive service.
The House then divided on the question, that the Speaker
do mow leave the Chair—
A yes
Noes 56

Majority 54
Oo oar readmission to the gallery we found Ilse House
in Cumrrittee, land
Mr. lt. WARD on his lees, defending 11w present exten-
sive stale of the arrangements of tire Orshience Depart-
ment, by pointing out the variety and extended out-
line of the services it had 10 perform, which were
not confined to the mere mi tin y service of the Ar-
tillery, but eonsprirnd the ordnance equipmests of
the Navy, which required estaldisbneents fur the dis-
tribution of stores in every part of Ilse world. Its
great increase of late years erne out of the in.
creased prosperity and strength of the country. So far back
as the time of Cromwell, in 1652, the sum voted fur the (lrd-
nance Department, exclusive of Is elf pay, and fur England
wily, exceeded 122,0001.; and although the present esti-
mate somewhat exceeded 1,000,000/. yet when it Was
considered that it included Great !Villain, Ireland.
and the Colonies, cool obeli the great increser of
alt our other establishments was looker) ill, hr contended
that the present estimate was teas in proportion than that
of Cromwell's time. Ile defended the department from the
charge which hail been mask against it of inattention to re-
commendations of economy and restriction, and rs fared to
the several Reports of the Commissi .... crs of Military la-
quiry,aud the Committee of Finance, in which their atten-
tions to those had been treasonably meutioned. In
the first year of the peace ill amount of the estimate.
was reduced wanly one-half, and the estimate of the present
year was diree•fourilis less than during the war. The Hon.
!Wernher for Aberdeen was fund of referring to the scale of
1792, and lie did not wooder at it, as the same reference
had been made by the Finance Committee; but he (Mr. %V)
differed both with the Hun. Member and the Committee ou
that point. It was riot [tensible to approach the eitimstes
of the present period to those of 1792. If the Honour-
able Gentlemen opposite WOO IA look back through the
last core hundred years—ft/ear, hem., keur)--itte firm
seemed to slams them, but there were only fuser wars
in that time, and consequently only four periods to re-
fer to—if they looked at these they would fool the endue.
tinny made on the conches ttttt of each of those wars much
less in proportion than had now been mask after she conchs.
sins! s.f a war so much more interims, and in which all the
eviablieliment• had been necesearily so much increased.—
To return to the scale of 1792 was nastier'd impossible
by the necessarily increased number of the establish.
meats; and also ley the difference in the value of money.
A clerk or any other individual could nut stow purchase
the same aniourt of any commodity with one guinea
except, perhaps, a few articles of cotton clothing- that be
reedit at that periusl. The Hun. Gentleman was also fund
of referring to the rate of salaries at that period. but be for-
got the persoisitee then allowed but since abolished ; fur M-
oaner. the Storekeeper at Dover in 1792 received a salary
of 120/. myenr, which had been raised to 3062.; but at that
time he was allowed his perquisites of pounelege, old ear-
tines, and sillier thing. olsicb Wlllll.l give bins nut
less than 4001. or 5901. snore. Indeed the lisle Store-
keeper, a link before his death, sent him a letter
lin is hich he elated that if the old sydens, sliest 111/1 salary was
120/, had erotic nee, he should at the present time have been
mirk kit; reboot 900!. At Chattiest, the Store keeper at present had
750/ and a house ; lost if the old system had continued he
words! have about 12,0001., all of winch would have come out
of the pockets of the piddle its some way or other, although
not in the estimate. The Honourable Gentleman then pro-
ceeded to observe upon the 67 stew sppointinetits, and the
superannuation. alluded to by the Hun. Member fur Aberdeen.
The latter had chiefly been of persons whose offices were
•bolielwel, some of (bens in the Colonies, and who could not
with airy propriety have been kft altogether unprovided fur.
The new appointments could not have been filled ap front
those person., sumP being much too high, and others as
much too low. Of the latter descriptioir were arslstent
clerk., which could not be filled up from the half-pay, ou
Isalf•pay being allowed to persons of that class. (if the
former description the periwig. mppolnlid were all select-
ed from among such as had superior claims oes the ser-
vice; several of whom were essioneritsd by the Hon. Gen-
tleman, who afiewarde entered into a comparative statement
of tier separate Cstimates of 1792 nod the present year, point-
lug out what he considered the proper scale of comparivone
between the two periods, its order to spew that the present
&insister were in proportion cveu lower than those of 1792.
In the year 1792, there were en horse soldiery, acid there
was uo barrack department. 'fbey might questiou the pro•
prirty of having so many artillery, but as they had them they
lutist provide some place for them to reside in. They had
114111/ to previde artillery fur fifteen coloaries, *birth deal not
exist in 1792; Wrest when them wets &sleeted, the ex-
cess of the prestos estimates was only sixty-five thou-
sand pouulls above that of 1702, after all that had beets said
of the waded the expeuditure cf the department ; and this
excess was to be actuunttd for by the rise of Prices, and

=4-•-•,/t1

melee of a former period with The present thirst
gent Peale. The Lion. Gentleman, the
the Ordtianee, had upon a termer occasion to
upon hirneelf •to-declare, that the Noble Duke
the head of the department lied token 03411 Mires
enforce the strictest economy, but 1w thought