The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1809-05-12 00:00:00

N 12,
.1809.

• titration in the state of affairs to'which he alluded,
as producing the altetatioti now prolossed
syhtt. m, was favourable or otherwise ?
Ali. PERcET AL said, that there was all alteration
in the affairs of Spain—there Wd4 also au altaratiots
iii these of Austria and Tiiskey—., hick Wight ac-
count for the alteratiou now proposed. That, bOw -
ever, he did not think was the period in *hick to
discuss the question, When the proper period did
arrive. he would be prepared to inert the Hon.
Gentleman. •
. Mr. WlNlTllltetti could well believe that the'
Iti4lit Haw Gentl,anaii did not thiiik the present'a
wutiveuient opportunity, because he seemed to be
entirely unprepared to answer the tin/lotion. The
Right lino. Geutletuan spoke of the affairs of
Spam, but if he had consulted dines, lie would
scarcely represent such Minns sit iiilluemtisg the
present. ebresure. • the night Huth Gehtlemaie,
seeing his friend se a loss fur an krseiser, hart whets'
vt•' *zing fewwawLehe lAttaisAgsVorte twaskakiMetisS
Iran •fort:es to his amitst.itite.

'Fite motion we then agreed to. and the Report
ordered to be recetved to-morrow.

CHARM. iIiGAINST LORD CASTLE.
• REAP!! ANN) MLL PERCEVAI...•
. Mr. NIAPPOCISb iti.putettence of his notice. rose,
. for the piarpose of . moving, e. That his charge of
corruptiosi motion those. two of Ilos Majesty's Mi.
tiisters, be heard at the 13 tr of the House, aid to
state more Particularly thou lie .had formerly &sue,'
the maitre or that . charge which he bad made
gii,calast them." In doing so, begged leave,
' the first place, to move, " That a Rest:initial en-
tered upon the Journals, in Deccinher, int), be
read." ( I his Resolutions of the House wore accord.
i.ogly read by the Clerk.) it stated that it was
then Ifeaolr ed, "That it is highly criminal in any
Minister or 1111iuiaters, or other Servants of the
Crown, either directly or indirectly, to hal lltftlCl.
voters in the wait of Nfembersto Parliaineat, as it
tends to sap the basis ofour free and glorious cousti-
tothous" He also snored that the Resolution, dated
said' April, teoft, be read by the Clerk. (This, nu*
also read by the Clerk.j It Lusted... that it is the
duty of this House to guard with jealousy the pa-
rity of Parliament ; but eonsklering that the charge
of eurruption then brought against Lord Cestk-
reaglr, was not carried into effect, this House does
not think it necessary to go to any crinunatory Re-
solution upon the subject."' . The charge which fie
r 1 as time about to bring forward out only criminated
that Noble Lird, but alio pre Right Hon. Geptle-
lime (Hr. Perceeal); mid before stating it he should
make a few preliminary ofeservations. fle wished
in the first place to disclaim any persOnal hostility
against either of these Hight lion. Gentlemen.—
He o:ily looked to oteorrectiou of that system which
atirs.gfilmoe.llesullitious that. hail. Leo* road seem-
ed to sly would. if continued. be likely to sap the
foontletion of the Curtstitutiom It was for the pus..
pose of preaereiag social order, trod strengthening
• the melons of our self defence. lie brog4ed to re.
peat what lie had fin inerly stated, that he had Ho
stronger feelings of hostility against these geode.
atm titan they themselves Mel formerly manifested
agaiust others who hail been guilty of a similar
offence! when they sat upon the .:her. side of the
!Nue. lie was no party luau, for !wooly support-
ed those who espoused the principles he deetned to
he right ; sail, therefore, being a deeitkil enemy to
corruption, lie thought lie could not do better than
follow the injunctiou of a Right I kM. Gentleman
opposite, when lie was giving it as his opinion, that,
although the times in whielf we heed were not so
corrupt as ferincrly, it was still uecessary to stop
the progress of corruption sslivrever it appearetb—
It-was complaiued against him, that, he had not
given auffieient natio e, according to the custom
nf'tlte House ;.but if he yecallected right, %lieu
the Hampshire pronto° was presented to the
Honer, it was argued,. that 110 notice of the
charge it contained was necessary to lie given to
the individual' charged ; trod in that case it was
acknowledged, that the charge was of a grave
and serious torture. We had never read, in the
ll:story of our. Cousritution, that sinteure places
were the palladiase• of our Constitutinis, nor that
rotten burghs were necessary for its rupport ; and yet
from the time when the abuses in the department
of the Treasurer of the Navy were' investigated
dowu to the time of the investigation of the eon-
duct of Iris Rural flightless the Comnatitler-in-
Chief. abases had prevailed to greater extent, in
reword to the undue influence of the Treasury, in
returning 3lernbcri to Parliament. This appeared
to have been also complained of formerly, if he
might judge from a speech of Sir John Aubyn, in
1734. wherein it is stated that, without feform in 1
Alt representation of the people. the doors of that !
"louse would lie shut against them; although
country gentlemen were likely to he the most ac-
tire for the pothlic good, yet still tha iofluence of
the .Crown had been able to supplant them, and
prevent them from setting iuto Parliament. The
cases which alrewed the nature of the ialitence of
the Treasury Benches, were really so many and
various, that hue should not thick of detaining the
House with stating ill of Navin that had come to
his knowledge. He should the:6We content him-
self with alluding to • few, wherein it appeared
that tomiey had licesi actually taken out of the
purse of the people, to pay sinecure lasers to per-
sons who were likely to influence elections. Ile
should meati!ii, for instance, the limit's of Hoot-
into, whire it uppeareol that 11 sinecure Orley
of 1 ird. alear haul hero granted to mac in-
dividual for the purpose of "rliilaeming—tb'st
Burgh, and tins noun I:ltiplinl by 'even
year., the duration of Pa houtieut, would pro-
sluice 98751. fur the return of are Member to
that House. The burgh of Rye. he might also
mei&on, as stautling tinder similar cirmain-
*towers. It appeared toe, that a place worth T 3071
a year had beets grants,' for the purpose of tufits-
Lowing the laugh of . auiontitiog .e- I
yen years to 17.1 Ct retort:sin a Meant/az

I(. SIX-le.N. • •

to serve iu this present Pubes:Beat. . lie :
therefore, took the liberty of octilhog the attest.
lion of the House to thia•subject, as out Heil:4 .111.
worthy of their .coesideraiMu ; ood-tt was kis i,?l-
snort that a committei.- should he'appouited to txa.
mine into the evidence, that would •be adrclut«l -
conterwing such practices. lie media, hoverer,
to confine the sytentma of the House to one
ease hi particular, . upon the present arca-
siou, as that rose seemed to be, of all others,
the wort uggraerteil, money, the ease of 'the
burgh of tarsal, in frehand ; for .6y it it appeared, t
that at the lest general election, and :mica that time,
the Treasury hod conducted themselves not outs
directly in :the teeth of the Mesa:la:ions of epic --
House, but hail elan Won guilty of erinduetir.g ' .
theansilves with rent injustice to an itufirdi:•al •
Meusher ut the ilquse, because be refused to rola
with thou' against hosconseience. The Honourable
Momber. bole th attempted to influence was
NireitOrnosehlteffe" teriffrt,thset he Wei •
confitle:it he would meet with the esteem of cvery
honest wan in the conetrys mad it wag to
thiii caw that he meant to Ingot% that evidei.se
should be adduced at the Bar. He slid not coo-
Mire tbat he o Is. wrong iu pressing the molten
he had formerly proposed ; and after stall: z
thus shortly the purport of his charge, he shoo a
knit propose follow the iircerdeot had
suggested on that ocelots's:n-11 appeared, tl t
at the last elieral election.' a vans of man, y
was paid by Mr. Quiiitin Dirk to Lord Cash
reagh, through the means of the Hum Henry Wel-.
holey ; and Ihnt.gentletnen tMr. Dick), was there-
by returned ineiuber for Cashel. mini Mr. Spencer
Parcend waste's(' a party to the transaction. Upon
occiiaion of the late itiveytiestisiots to the, Duke
of York. Mr. Durk waited upon Load
Castlereagh, and informed !timer the vote he fIOtNOL
to give, and the Noble Lord not apfsessving of that
mode of voting, sogge-tetl to him the prop:lily of
reiimgnislrinq hisieat iu Parliainent.—He should,
without enlerging further; leave this matter to the
House, relying that it would adopt such means to
correct and prevent suck corrupt praettccs as
would tent moat to maintain its honour and ia,g-
nity.—The Hon. Graitletuan Men salt dons, wit
out proposing say motion, learns, it to the deter.
tuiostiors of the House, what motion ought r.
gu-
larly to be before thesis.
Lord FOLKESTONE SitZ,',TrINPJ that the precedent
in the ease of Shepliearil, iiiristerly sews, should be'
adopted, and in that case it did wit apoear fried
the Jimettals, that the party accused withdrew,
thotiy;to he was not ordt:red to be in ins place, till
certain matters came out iu elamivatioe, as to the
borsch of liriember, when it was thusightoscrusary
to take Sir- Edward Seyinsisois:a eharge into tows-
geratiou. .He thought,...thoosfoos, -shoo -it. welt -
nit he necessary, io the present us.-tuner, k the
Noble Lord and the Itizlit Honourable
Geutle-
man to withdraw, as the charge was not vet in such
a state of forwardness as to occasion it. In the pre.
scut state of the matter, they were cricupetent to
vote, and to give an opinion, and therefore st
peered that the llouourable Gentleman ought to
propose his motion, before they should be called
upou to make their defence. lie, however, should
appeal to thethair, as to what would be the roust
proper course of procedure
The Secautaimid, the House were obliged to
the Noble Lord for culling their attention to this
subject in the present stage of the proceedings. Ifi
it were intended to follow the precedent formerly
stated. then this woall be the ntontcut at which
the Honourable Ocutleman's charge should be
heiril,-and there would be no compulsion on the
itirlividnals against whom it spiked to wititdraw.-%.
Sim* Mr. 11 alpoie's vise there hod hern uo in-
stance of the party withdrawing. aisles* where the
charge was of u eriminvtory nature. The present
charge was of a dooliie sort, mut it was not for
him to presume to informs the House or flue Uses
sionrable Alesaber, whether they should folic* the
precedent of Sliepheard's case, or not, in all par-
ticulars.

•

I

.
•

Sir JOHN AN3VILTHER rose, be ssid,.merelf fdr
the purpose of setting the Noble Lord right as to
one part of the precedent he havi Awoken of. He
took it to have been, that Mr. Shepheard wee
hoard immediately upon the information of the
charge being given to the House. and protested
his innocehce, pother was he ordered to withdraw
during the discussim. lifthis stage of the debate
at least. the present psrties should not withdraw.
At a t.tilisetpient [whorl, when the charge was move
matured, Mr. Siirplicard, and also his Counsel. - -
were heard in answer to it. The Nettle Lord wee •
wrong in coupling the 'finial...4Mo io the . case of
Shepheard with the case of Braniber, as it had no.
thing to do With the charge of Sir Edward Sey• •
moor. Mr. Shepheard, idler prutestag his lona..
eerier, was then furnished with the nauh-s of thi%
persons and plitcrs, and other partieUlars iu wnUute
u;iou which the charge was fouaded. •
Mr. HOHNZR said, he apprehended the parties .
srent4fiberty in this stage elute case to enter up-
on their defence.
The SteAcee aided% that he conceived it iestrd
entirvly wish the lluo. Member (Mr. Hadiliie,.
hiarivelf to rev whether be wenid or soald.tioi go
by he• precedent. for if so,-be should think the
patties ought now to Ise heard. 'ise Itiabie Lord
who had given his op-ioioo tt:too this.ponst was not
correct iu saying that a Mea•drer. doo.liog io the
situation of a putty at-Oleo'. could case 11110 U the
discpasani. us helloes to be leaked upon as it party
..- • .
iaterrsted re the thcision of the question.
letiOu Uteri sio.-.0 that the !maxi should be ""-:, •
heard ; •
Mr. PERCE'vAt..roge. cod *addressed the House.
—" I nurpo.ely (said. oroichet giving any opi..
mon upon this isoint. a, 1 ass desirous to follow
the 4i‘laitcs of use House. I certainly' did conceive. !
that aecattiing to the ordinary prAC:IVe. when a
ehkr4e oat brought against a:: iiinivklual, that 'in-
dividual w4os 10 be Isom:, eien before the mourns

' . .

..

I

. • •

f

• eatepet ; nod Ii 3 not mean to %mutt at (be
'established practice of the House. use. I'rutia My,
thin', think that thectedluare course ofcallinKitrion
an iitiii6idurl to answer a charge, instead Of with-
' drawing, appellee to bee attended with some degree
of embarrassment. It is coyish* iuconsistent with
propriety that he sliodkl be called itpou to
take a part in the discussion upon the charge
• brought eguinet himself, and yet hot be permitted
to influence the decision by hie vote, whorl that dis-
cussion is dared. I should be disposed, however,
to conform to the practice, if nut the law of the
House, were it not that I sun convinced, that toy
presence would only tei..l to fetter and restrain the
proceedings-that may take place, and therefore
shall, after a few word*, be inclined, with your per-
mission; to withdraw. I certainly think, that the
person so charged, shOulvf nether be allowed to
a sale at the close than at the commencement of
the discussion, as he might then be better able t.
(,serve upon the question, ill all its various bear-
, i ,4.. I et/atria I have felt exceedingly great doubt
m tire course I shoidel pursue,. in the address I
eld nicks to the House repot) this occasion. If
..lt it to be a case of an ordinary nature, in which
it i•riminatory proccetlitie was iastituted against.
'aas individual, whether a hlember or not, I should
be disposed to meet the statetrient that may be
made out with such a denial as must arise from a
cenriction. that it is perfectly unfounded, or give
oceh exptruati.rit ss might be necessary, of that part
pinch appeared incorrect, and voter into an exami-
petion of the Ines that applied to it, so us to enable
toe •House to come to is proper slecisioa upon it,
but I cannot leek upon this case in that light. The '
, itateaseut mad, ante the proceedings alrevity adopt-
ed. preverit me from looking Nam it in that puiat of
• view, for thy Hon. Member. has stated that there is -
a mess of other matters to be inquired into, teal •
to it this May be cousidered as the firseof ma series of
vistheitions. He lies alluded. I believe. :u Qv • •Iti.
borough, Hastitigs,Ree, and ether places, watt re lie
conceives appoilitinclits have been made to iallu-
rime elections, and has stated that piy.uents bee
been made for that purpose out of the pockets of
the people. Ile has also told us, that it is not so
much with a view of vindicating the injured honour
of the House, hut that lie is in pursuit of one plain
object. of which he gave notice at as earlier period
of this session, and tingles me and my Noble
Friend out us examples, 111 order. to il:nstrate the
necessity of roi.:e ding to the plain of Parliament-
cry Roform, or o hick he gave notice. That no-
tice was withdrawn. and this une
its room ; and therefore I must consider this ae
the first s;op which he coliceiv-s eccessary to
• effect his purpose of ate-farm. Ntlica I ere that
hr is laying a precedent fur himself bed othenh
I feel it indispensably necessary to take care
that I do pot establish that- which would be
twist slatigereas in the case of a charge wade
basil: proof, by entertog into a detail of what chane
net. and what mean were used. and what individn-
els were connected with him who is the object of it,
when called upon to disclaim use admit it. I con-
ceive the; this would amount to a dystem of inquisi-
torial p-oceeding. that would he most ditageesua to
all eangdenee Ip ,private sr *anal life. Sir, we
live in e time its which we see public informatioas
against public men to Ise the pursuit or a
great variety of persons, and we ate Oral rise
to honour and esteem, through those turan..-•-
reformation too we find is obtained through variuns
ways. collected through iterate 'confidence. er by
the miaure of leuers, and these creninimicated to
the pufrlic, sad made the foundation of public
barge and insputatiou against public men. When
relate this,. I think it will be deemed more con-
sistent, with decency and decorum to att49.10 from
toting any . notice of what the lion. Member her
stated as a charge against me. He supposes the
matter be has-alluded t0,.t0 have been urgociated
by the Noble Lord near me. not wholly with-
oat my knowleder ; and, therefore. I think it.
would be more consistent with.the dignity of the
House. that I should content Myself with no other.
Mode of denial then with the plea of sot ge:lty;
retesting, us I do' hay ineocertce. Until 1 know..
that the House he disposed en eutereiin the churge,
cermet voter into any defence, but I shall be pre-
pa ed. as I em now at this moment, to explain the
whale business most satisfactorily. I hope my dt-
efiaing fixenter into .it wilt not he deemed disre-
spectful to the House; but 1 eanuot sablestive, that
wader these circuiestreicte. and in these times es-
pecially, et is wise for pubhe men. either upon this
ode of the Haase or upoo the other( to Cuter imp
• explimetieas "limn a mere statemeat made by an
Haat Member in place ; sad, therefore, I Make
my bow to you and to the House, and shall there-
•by leave the question unembarrassed by any thing
that may fall from me." The (tight Flom firm-
ileum then withdrew. amidst generel cries of
bear! bear! Ater! from the Ministerial benches.
Lord CVITLItICAGIt next addressed the House
in a short speech. in which he exprecied hie sans-
ciorrence in the sentiments that had fallen from his
Right Ron. Friend. the did not feel himself mu.
therised to make ally further observation or ex-
planation at present ; hot should it he the pleasure
of the House to investigate .the que.tion further. at
the proper moment he should he folly prepared to
offer his eentiments. At present, he should follow
the example of his Right /fon. Colleagee.
The Noble Lord then made a bow to the
SPTAILItIt, and withdrew.
Mr. TIPPIIVT et/served, that it 'impute's? strange,
that the Heuer was left to rtiseirsa a charge, of
.which many Members were entirely ignorant, et
least those who had corn, in eitlesequeutiv to the
• upreeh of the• Honourable Gentleman who had
stated at. It nu e!.,.t therefore, he thought, to hue put
in somewhat of it 'mire .•ntele:etile shape, even itc-
eording teethe precedent.
Upon Mr. Meociouits's stating, that he should
be regulated by the precedent la the ellite of Shop-
neer& it was then ordered to be read, es before,
.when the chaie:e was fret brought before the
Home;
'flue s'w..ilitst nbeerv,id, that from precedent
rt appeared that the eher,e- was Ii rest :mule, ira
reseed, and arrive oriFeed io btr heard evi-
dence at the Bar. tat .• Ham:. hoviug previmeir di-
rected that it should be given in to the
Member accusal. There wits n came in whielresee.
tostrirther was concerned, is which the cbmge was
delivered in writing in the first instance; but to this
was tint the precedent taken mu the prevent its-

,!‘

,

. •
stance, the House most be regnlatEd by the other,
the case of Shepheard.
Mr. Wiliraaxas. said, he apprehended it would
not have been consistent with the entitle of pro-
ceedings', tad his Honourable Friend given iu any
writteu charge, and that therefore this being
oral charge, he could have no objection to leave
out of the motiou, now to be made, the naming
any specific day, when • it should he heard at t.ie
Bar. We all knew, that in the late cw.e re-
lative to the Duke of Yolk, the charge was orally
made, and yet the House appointed a Committee
to. inquire into the charge. As to the statement
of his Right Hon. Friend near him, (Mr. Tierney)
that many of the Members did not understaud the
nature of the charge, he had to chserve, that it
was always presumed that all Members were in the-
House, and that the House collectively speakihg •
was that body present at the time the charge was
made, with the eaception, that the individual
charged must be tiecesperily present, particularly
where an oral charge was mater. 71'o-remove all
objections to the motion, he thought that the word
stow might be left out, so as to leave the day when
evidence should be heard undetermined.
Alr. CANNING--" This is of the nature of a
double question, the latter part Luesurning an af-
tirtuative of the former ; and therefore when it is
said that the charge shall be taken into considera-
tion upon a certain day, the Honourable Gentle-
man -takes it for granted that the charge shall be
gone into. This wuuld render the motion objec-
tionable, but if so altered as has been suggested, I
apprehend there can be no objection to the charge.
being entertained, and the .first question upon an
oral charge is certainly as to whether it shall be
entertained or pot. If it be determined that it
should be entertained, it will then beconie a mat-
ter of justice th.tt it sho 11.1 pUt into so clear a
bhope, as that it may b. • • in wnting• to
the Members so chart( • ••, order that the
House luny be • 1,..1 they are to
d;-cues upon a funs- d.

Lord VI/I.IIVA, •-- • tse be to conform
itse:f to tlii. p . turd, I hope they
will adopt it •arit . • • we shall fall hi-
to error. I i ou., • ,tosite says. he hopes
that the e'lar.te aAI . to the accused in a
I,4rticalwr f ; dint 11141 be very convenient I.
him 1111.1 hi.. V111104..11 ti 1.111 11 is not so in the pre-
ced, .u. form it there *:.pear* to have hen merely ii
c.terai-itt of the 11•1111.-11 Or places, where corrutition
bribery ha.t beta itiieged to have existed. 1 here
eau he notiiiitg Irss pn.eiie or particular than such a
charge; and therefore 1 think It will be sufficient,
to debirr to the prriavit one in as general wurJs
were tubed upon thst former occasion. •
. Mr. MADIHICILI then begged leave to 1110Y2.,
" TOrt the matter of the charge be beard at the
, &se af Honer'"
MG WHITBREAD and Sir Famtcts EuwtaT
both rose to seroud this motion.

Upon the motion being put from the Chair
Mr. ILLigTwlttlinT said, that when he considered
that the Hon. Mover of this char_te had sec tided
the long string of resstutions, there could he little
d.ubt iu his mind that this was a kind of prepar-
atory step to Parliamentary Iteforin. lie, for his
part, was attached to things as they were, bot was,
at the same not indisposed to enter into
the consideration of abuses where they alma-
lu;ely pressed themselves forward into notice,
nod where great disativaittage was found to arise
from thew. Courts of Law were, however, opeu
to every transaction of the present stature. and why
trouble the House of Commons with their discus-
sion? Before he could encourage such motions,
he meet be satisfied of the mourn that actuated
the movers; for if they were allowed to begin, they
would not kuow where to end. They might pull
down. but they could not rear, Ile could not sup-
, (pose that the Ham Member was actuated by any
other than hunest motives, but he denied that the
general cause of the miutory woos in favour of Re-
form. lie thought that that unhappy question,
as to the Duke of York. had b. a taken up too
much in the spirit of triumph ; and that although
his Royal flighiseas ought not to have remained
longer iu ofiice, yet he should not hare thought of
...thine meetings to congratulate the lion. Member
who had brought such a question forward. Those
who thought that there were points that ought to
be reformed, ought also to relle4 that this was not
the proper time fur carrying that Reform into ef-
. feet. We were now eoutending with the most
powerful enemy that we ever lia4 and therefore, it
wouW be most dangerous to sow ilivisione through..
out the country, for the purpose of poling the way
fer imaginary Reforin. Never was there a °Guidry
hi which there was so meat real liberty, and such
eqatlity twisting amongst all ranks of society.. lie
one instance where a meeting had taken piece, he
under. tood that 17 persons had addressed the
Mayor.to calla meeting and 70 persons had peti-
tioned him against it ; in consuqeetice of which
the Mayor did not call a Meeting, but yet the 17
persons met, and came to Resolution,. themselves
as to Cnnheititlationis and Reform. Was this, he
woeld ask, a proper mode of knowing, and sweets
tinning the reutseuse of the country ?
Lord MILTON sail, he did not know whether the
Jon, blember who had just spoken meant to ap-
ply hW observation/ to all persons wishing for any
kind of itei.orm ; but he could say for himself, that
if this measure was for Parlimneittary Reform, he
(Lord M.) would be the first to oppose it; for he did
not Lelieve that any practical good could arise from
,•reform la 'Parliameotory representation. He
thoteglit, that the tel reform had, in many
iastances, hem 'sorbed improperly ; but there
were certain circumstances iittimeling returns to
Parlia.u.oit that ought to be recoiled, and prat-
tiers that might to be put ste end. to ; amongst
others the evident ititerfereuce of Government in
elections, which had a most daugernus tendency.
Whether this charge were proved or not proved
against the preionit Ministers, he should not have
ono jot the worse poi Mitts of them than he at present
had few whatthey had dune, for lie could not conceive
thoutheir eunditet could he trailed criminal for dos
log that whxh Inel been done by ma governments
taut lead existed before them :Ind will he done by
nil that may fellow them. All reforms must he.
gin by intlictittg setae hardships upon some indi-
vidnal or individuals. end uponoltis oetasion the
reform sought for might probably end in hardship
nixie theme two individeds• now licensed. With
rev p. to the nto•:on time made, there might its

owed be inconveuielfre 'wising from if, as we
had seen in regard to the evidence adduced at the
bar upon a late uccasion, and therefore he thought.
that a Committee above stairs might be preferable
to any other, mode of investigation. It wai upon
that account he should prof oselis an amendment
to the motion,—" That iii,tead of the words s That
the charge he herd at the' bar of this House,'
" there be substituted the• wWrds. That the matter
of charge be referred to a Committee above stairs."
The SPEAKI:ft then put the motion and the
amendment from the Chair. _ . .

, .
Sir CitstlLEs MORGAN opposed both the motion
and the amendment, as he conceived tine to be
the columenceusent of a system aigainst which every
man ought to make a stand who valued either the
'dignity of the House or the safety of the country.
Weald She Hon. Gentlemen who easide this ininiou
be satisfied with the victims he hid selected t No,
many mere must be filtered through the pu-
rifyiug vessel of Reform.. It wen a plau chiatited
ostensibly with the garb of public virtue, but was
stripped much of • that experience mid motives
which characterized Reform, if these Reformers
were to succeed ass their attempts. we vseuld• nut
only be fouud without a !pensioner, but without
a Minister mamiest us, and than what. were we
to do? We slosiild not he able to find any
man to undertake a public situation.—He e 4,1
not wish to see a new order of things; and by
no means wished to have the valuable time of
the House thus taken tap in discussing theoretical
improvements instead of attending to the necessary
public business. .He had heard much of attending
to the voice of the people ; but much us lie vs.
hued the approbation of his constituents, he
not be influenced by them to act ei. strury to' what
he conceived to be the dictates of the constitution.
Under the couviction, therefore, that the House
would be doing more gtsod by rejecting, than by
listening to this acemation against two of its Mene.
ben, he could not help giving the Motion his
dc.ided negative.
Sir JOHN ASSTittrelfEtt opposed. the
There appeared to him to be one set of men deter.;
mined upon upholding all things, and another
equally determined upon pulling down eve's thing
that was venerable in the Constitution. lie con-
ceived the latter to have opened the ball with a
Noble Lord, and that, pursuing their progress,
they alight have confined thensselves to the present
charge merely ; hat he felt himself beimd to state
his objections, founded on justice and candour,
which was, that thq state the whole of their case at
olive, and not bring it forward piecemeal. It was
said to be a case of-Parliamentnay reform; but the
present motion proposed nothing like reform. • By
snaking one accusation neelay, another twetiorrow,
ends third the next day, they might possibly gra-
tify the public taste .for the moment, but they
Would do nothing. towards the promotion ; re-
form ;on the contrary, they would be only leading
to public dietructiou. Ile would not be wider.
stood, Cy any thing which he advanced, as being
adverse to the question of Reform, as a ge-
nt rid proposition, but merely to the means by
which it was attempted to be promoted. A Noble
Lord had stated, that he thought something
should be done for the purpose of prtveuting
the increase of the influence of the Crown. This
might be a good argument, as applied to the ne-
cessity of adopting prospective sneesures ; but how
would this apply to chtirges, which were meant to
criminate with respect to the past ? to such he ob-
jected as far as they were retrospective. With the
meaning or import of the term information, as
technically used on this occasion, he diffes ed. lle
understood it to mean something that conveyed
acme precise intelligible meaning, that could not
be.misunderstood. Had the Honourable Member
conveyed say such to the House ? If, on the con-
trary, it was of so loose and vague a nature, us that
a Court of Justice would not call for taut answer,
was that dowse hound to proceed on the most op-.
posite principles ? . What was the suns total of than
charge ? • That an Hon. Member lied thross;;;11
ther deposited a sum of money For the purpose of
purchasing a twat m Parliament. Upon ILlMlXgt`bl ion
so vague and undefined as that, was the confidence
of inmate life to be violated for the purpose of gra-
tiking public seandal ? Compared to the present,
he cosiiiidered the charges brought against a Noble
1 Marquis as candid and fair, fqr it was but fair that
''the House ahosifif be enabled to judge, whether
ehnrges were (handed in fact or in malice. He
called on. the House to bear in mind with wlui• art
the public mind had heersof late excited; it was arid
they were upow by the paLiic voice. Ile would
have theta take.winiting and consider well before
they proceeded; for his part, he felt it Conviction
there existed no public voice on the. subject of Re-
form ; on the cnntiary, he firmly believed its ad-
vocates were otity to be found is public clamour.
With.rwpect to the motion itself, it appeared to
him as only cnlculated for the purpose of scattering
surmises abroad; by bringing forward ooe motion
to-day, another to-morrow, and so on in order to
excite discontent in the public mind. For him-
self, he ennclivied that nothing could be wore un-
just thou to call for answers to charges at the pre-
sent time, when by the Bill now artuAy before
the Home, prospective measures were in agitation
for tjtepurpose of preventing the recurrence of simi-
lar evils in future.

Mr. COWEN &elated he felt no little hesitation
as to the part winch he ought to take on the pre-
sent occasion. If the charge now brought torwurd
should prove in the event unfounded. a to avy re-
sponsibility would Felton those who made it ; if, on
the contrary, the charges were merely generally of
gaining a seat is the House by whate%er meting,
perhaps he might not give a vote on the subject;
but alien that charge was made against the public
Ministers of the Crown, it then became iii hi. mind
a serious question indeed: It could not be dis-
puted thit there were no means by which we could
promise ourselves u probable chance of existence,
hut by setting seriously shout the worlt•of Reform;
hut at the same time lie could not deity that perhaps
this was not the precise period at which that could
be best undertaken. IF measures could be adopt-
ed adequate to the end proposed, and at the stuns
time compatible with the public safety, he certain-
ly ahonid most cordially agree with aily proposition
tending to*that purpose, end he could have wished
the nom. Stover hsd waited- for the Bill now be-
fore the Mow, for the vrformition of abuses.--:
If the noose were coastituted as it ought, all

4) 3

• .

.
would be well ; if oa the re:Weirs, r. fain eat men.
tially necessary, it would lie act% perhaps, to
pass by the tail that was pest. arid to look foiwurd
with hope to the future; hit on the whole Ile kit
hound to style-at the pale roll.
Mr. BlDOULPllcureattel,J, that dna house was
the only proper tiilauter Lena*. wI icli offence* of the'
:suture stated and coneu:ai.al I id•could properly
brought forward and intestiaterl. p
ith t—
ierce to the motives which might intl.:viler any
men to make the charge, if made befere uuy jud,r.
of the land, and lie were to object to them mina th..
.groued that the motives care bad, he would °illy
-Ask hies to open the book. aud say. how was tie
law s
Sir hies s:cts BURLIZTT.--M tettlinly
anxious, before I ventured to deliver my seutimeatts.
to lime heard the sentiments *h tvii *1 cons:_
der as 'attires- inferuied On. the sub ject. than which,
one more impertent or tonehicg the vital intonate ot'
the country, I catmint well imagine. As e charge
against- ithilistere. I
.had hoped to Ir. i.fussed tt
auswered by something More rearonithle end ratio.
factory then any tidos( I tette hitherto heard ade
%Rimed in their farmer. Itseatt.tions have 'been
thrown nom, the Hon. GelithlT'llit who !his brought
tot:steel the preseat el:argee, whieh, if true, uouthl
be diegracelial to him ; but l< maintaiit ho has:
brought them foi •.1 in • cost Pailksinentary
manner ; for this purpose I have•takee Jett tit
the precedents from the earliest perior4 to the
present timer. and maseithatandiug the cornet.
orb" of his proceeding, he lien Vern scouted by
others; aud no soulier is the charge niede. than it
is retorted on him as if the charge we.. not to I.e
lieteued to. Comma: fume has been agreed
oil as • good grotind for accusation ; if so.
that I con end is the present inatenetr, and
who is the 11/111 iu this House who will get up in
his place, and bay ou his honour he dues uothatlfere
there is good groutm for inquiry ? If this then be
the rose, to oppose is but exciting disgust mud op-
probrium. teed Romparte could not desire suit
better ally in this liouse.—llleare) 1 %lit it is the
only and true mode to produce innovetioa;atel I de-
fy any cry of a Hear.' from x letter• . quarter it mete
come. lam free Woven I ant not surprised to finri
Miuisters !shrinking from charges when brosigl.t
forward in a tangible shape. especially when con-
tattled with that bug-hear, Parliamentary Reform_
A Noble Lord has stated his belief that seats its
this House have been subjects of purchase ;
is not this common fame ? Another liot,. Member
has offered to rove the fact at your her ; is not Ibis
bringing tlie charge into a tangible shape? When
it iv said that the essences cf such griesencee are lei
be considered as caluntudiutor; of alie•State ;
.Vona'
own Committees. your Cotranissieuers appointed
to hiquire into public abuse*. are the Calumi.latora
by their jitahlic Reports. %I' hat I assert 1 Lind in
your Stutu to Book; and all l ask is, to put its pro--
visions into practice. Happy tar the country if ad thot
asked be granted as a favour by the House; if you
refuse it. guilty will he those who es use the refusal.
There ere sons who aretua against the motion, as
not knowing where inquiry will go to ; I bey iyott
agree to it, you save your character; if you deny it.
yon mime save tile held. With respect to the
bill now before the House, I consider it as a bill to
' prevent honest men from coming into-Perliament,
sad enabling Ministers to act as they please ; and
those Gentlemen who disdain the imputation of
swelling their pockets, whi:e the public remain
poor. will nu doubt reject it. Upon the wholes I
find it imposilible to refuse my assent to a inotiou,
which, if not thoroughly understoad, must at least
he believed I. be well founded by all who heard it.
Mr. Dames GIDDY said, that property aud
power should always be united—he hod always con- .
sickatel it one of the greet merits of tie Constitu-
tion, that all interests were represented .n that
Heuer.. Ile wished to see the landed and
to that he would allow the pr. dominance, he wished
to see the rimmed interest, he wished to see the
lawyers, idle army, mid the navy represented; he
was not afraid to say, that he bud no objection to
the introduction of certain members of thr East India
Company into the house. /4 heel.) Alter ell that
was said against the present system, the country was
flourishime under it, and they should be cantiousof
adopting nay speculations which might endsoger
that prosperity. Uader the present spleen. Filua
protection was extended to all ; the law .wesi the same
for all this lie considered to be practical liberty.
and he wile satisfied with it. Fvr such reasons, lie
would give his sincere vote against the motion of
the Hon. Geetlenuan. If any case of corruption was
made out. no man would be more forward than he
would be to resist and crush it; hut he would always
draw a distiuction between corruption sad that
species of influence which did stud ought to exist.
Mr. Masse said, that lie wec desirous to trou-
ble the House with a few words. He did not
hear the nature of the charge which was
brought forward by the Hoe. Gent. aud he thought
that the joontais•weeld make it sire lige appearator e
tautest the Hon. Goat, would favour the House with
some paper which might be lose: tea to esphiiii its
nature. In the case of Shepherud, the Ifree,e
resolved specifically that he lied proved hiineult
corrupt in un littempt to influence by bribery, and
it wee upon the specific statement of that charge
that it agreed to entertain' it. Ile thought that the
House was
.n.uw, as well as then, entitled to have
upon ire journ.ule • the grounds of deliberation; it
the lion. Gentleusau would agree to furnish them.,
it would contribute much to the regularity of prc-
ceeding and to the elucidation of the question : if be
related to de au,. he (Mr. T.tarould feel himself ins
difficult situntio., and so he was persuaded wieild
many in that House. He thought that part of the
charge should be entertained; that reit he *Hull"'
to which accused a Nlinister of having pre-
vented a Member from doing his duty, stud of in-
fluencing him to relinquish his seat rather than
obey the dictate, of his conscience
•that part of
the charge, he ass of opinion, should be
entertained ; it was one of the gravest that coati
peasifily be brought against a Minister` of the
country ; it bad nothing whatever to do with Par-
liamentary Reforin—it was an evil against which no
Reform ceillil guard, and therefore was utterly
unconnected with the question. The charge levies'
Lord Castlereaelt was distinct. aud of a nature
that called loudly for investigation ; hut that
against Mr. Pererval. and Mr. Henry Wellehe
was sir vague, that he did sea Omar the Hoe
would for a titomeat he inches:l te eu!cr wee, tire

1 •• •
I

• • •
!lllra* The fortter cheep they -were (lOW
teem more particularly to eutertaiu, as the Noble
Lord stood already, in the opinion of so large a
minority, convicted of corruption ; it was a eir-
renostance that ought to make them. more sensible
of the propriety of reparating the charges, and en-
tear'. g that which was more rprcifirally urged.
It lead bees' said that this motion was paving
the way for Parliainentery Reform, and he be-
lieved, from the view which the Hon. Gentleman
Pail stated, that it was introduced for that pferpose.
!t would be ati inconsistency Meech', Inns to de-
clare himself an enemy to Parliamentary Reform,
which he had formerly espouser), and to which he
was Still attached ; to the present moment he
was Iv friend to the measure. As men grew older,
they grew .ore prurient, and he might possibly
have abated, in come degree, the enthusiasm of ins '
younger duvet. There was something in the eir-
citinstances of the present times, which, with all
sittacluiteat to the principle of Reform, induced
bim. to look upon them, as not admitting the pro-
peropportouity ; lie did not think this was the
loess hi briog .: forward. At the same time, he
-,0,11.1 beg leave to draw Al distinction between
these who throught that Parliamentary Reform
Would bring raid opus the country, and those who
were not only favourable to the sues:ore, but to
tiie time ; that distinction he would beg leave to
thaw, and the prineiple. of that distinction he would
stand upon. What was it made this question start
up now P aothlug hint the ferment of the public
mind, evited hr the late inquiry into the conduct
crate Ilukt ref York. Many, he was persuaded, cried
out for reform. who did not know with what view.
At the bottom of the public mind the coesidera-
tioa airs the weight'of taxes and the notinii of re-
form a relief from •those taxes. The Honourable
fientleinaa lied bilked much of the prosperity
ea' the country. (u prosperity which he admitted,
a:.l t s wledi he rejoiced) ; hut that Hoeourahle
Sentleman, must have known lit.ltaif the timely of
the peoole ; he must have been little acquainted
with the spirit that pervaded the lower classes
of society, if he did not koow that tee cry of Par-
Itainelosiry Reform, ar liar as it was applicable to
them? was only a complaint against the weight of
taxation. The deduction of to per cont. from
every man's income, was enough to make him
alive to every* plan of reform ; ei:ri when the public
were told, that honesty in the Parliament would
prevent that weight ; it was natural they should
cling to any measure with u view to such relief.
Evert man was disposed to listen to schemes which
lied for their object the alleviati n of such bur-
tneus as he was a -le,fer in, hut lie Pie T.)
co.'s:l(l+Tel it tlw foulest 'cost unkind delnsion,
to lead them into an expectation which was ground-
te,4, anti eiteritiratte them to entertain hopes ahich
were certain of enieradictiou. Paoli emeatary Pe-
lham should not, in hie opinion. lead to ally alatvy
discussion. If the Honourable fieetleiasee wa. wail-
ing to introduce it, lie might do so, bat Ire
T.) did not worrier that or was necessary to pre-
pare the way for it by degrading public eliaractere--
he did not conceive it necessary to seek, io the irri-
tation of the country, produced by attacks on such
e;iaractirs, en argeolitat in its support. lilt was
only micro such- grounds Poreamentary Reform
could he supported. at would furnish the very
strongest reesou for ebandeuiug it altogether ; but
such was not the vase ; it was by the discussion of
abstract principles, and the observation of general
{acts, that such u cineltion was to he maintaiwitel.
These facts went to Knee, that there was en influ-
ence used in the int rodoctioa of Members into that
Mum, which could not, and might not, to hate
their approbaeom Mr. Pitt himself had gone the
.moth of proposing, that the burgage tenure
should be bought up; thereby edionting the use
that was made of it. For some reaion or other,
which lie could not &cesium' for, it winked to he the
Mod to popularity, to disclaim- party. He owned
that he had heard, with groat surprise, the Ho-
strisruble Mover of the motion declare, that he
was no party man. If lie lint not declared so,
he (Mr. T.) would have feu/lured under the
mistake. that they belonged to the same party.—
/Beer! Hear !) But if lie thought that it
brvaght him any addition of populanty, the Hon.
'Member war welcome to adopt it, without fearing
aby attempt upon his part to participate in time ad-
vatitage. Ile must owe, wieetever the consequence
might be, that be was a party man, he had al-
ways, nod would always act with a certain party.—
'llse lion. Gentlemen theinselves, who seemed
to spurn at time idea, acted with all the discipline of
a tasty ; utiun smile questions they would assent-
-11:44 vote—others they. del not consider of such
importuneo, and refused ter vote ti eon—they seemed
prepares! to come in and go. out accerding sue their
leader wished; hut who their leader was, he would
not pretend to determine, or whether they had any.
• leader they would tied it necessary to adopt at
forme time or other: upon what principle they would
ele-_t him, he could not say ; but there were two or
three candidates now, from whom they would pro-
-6104 select• one. 'they seemed to affect con-
ertelment : they know enough of . the human mind,
to ling.,' that stage effect had a great influence,
awl thin. the public attention would be excited
by a mysterious character. It was gratifying to
them to be spoken of iu such a light, and have it re-
presented, whenever they undertook to perform any
thing in the way most likely to lax attention; us for in-
stance, ou such a slay one of the men of the so
party is to bring forward a 'notion. He (M-. T.)
•r 5. against the 'moist i originating in that party,
as he: was neainst every • hiug he dial not understand.
Th •se Gentlemen were perpetually saying, that
they did not want to turn the present Ministers
from their situations, yet they brought charges in
their pockets, the here FW ntion of which obliged
two of the Ministers to walk out. He did not want
their support for his friends, it would he vain to
attempt to procure it ; but he thought he might
ineiiire of there, why they were such friends to
the ntiser party, and why they should seen, fear-
ful lest that party should be turned out He
It, err that a weak Administration would be geate-
fill to those whose purposes were 110 i
But lie did not mean to accuse the party of whicb
he was now speaking of purposes that would lead
them to prefer a weak to *sarong one. They were
-indeed in the habit of accusing all but themselves.
They said upon every occasion that the two parties
-came to an iininediate mitlerstaoding—thet they
coalesced sod protected each other-whenever cot-

a

..-..-q-~--~-...

--~--~-

•
•
top,tion mos threatened. Thum mu a thiltr,
against him to which he should plced 01;1+4
' was that of being in itifliue. He was mulatto-.
nately not aware of 0.,• fat t, lint supposed that
fie was now much richer th-in btfore be was in
the Government. It was very easy to say that• the
produce of the sweat of our brown Wei Wrung
from us in taxation, but lie much questioned
whether, if they lied the matiageinent of affairs
themselves, they could prevetit prime oceasionul
deviation from that strict economising distributing
of it which he allowed to be essential. It was
said that there were proofs of corruption he
saw no proofs : taking the luxury of the times sod
the nature of this offices into account, the present
age was us little corrupt us could ne expected.
The worthy Baronet had expressed h',lnsitlf hostile
' to the Bill which *as intiodu_ald by the Right I too.
Gentleman over the way, Co: the porp4se of pie-
venting the abuses now existing ; butt he would
own. that what had fallen from the worthy Baronet
made him more favourable to it than before. It
wail sualeimt for him that Parliament had recognised
the principle, and was willing to adopt measures
for its • pre% ennui). In these measures he would
coocur, but he would not in the injustiers of
seleetinz two ucerscuel, who haul done what bud been
donein many iiiatances before. without any particolur
aggravation to distinginsh their cases. He believed
that the gill would be effectual, cud that to a very
great extent ; however, if he was mistaken, it would
.be time enough, when experiince proved him to
he an, to Join ill 41 mother measure of a mut 'COM.
prehensive and efficacious deseriptiun. .Ile termed
with the Honourable Gentle:oats, w!io sail that
it was the essomee of the Constitution, that
the different interests should be represented—the
landed ought to have the predominance, but
not the whole influence ; nor could it, unless
the representation was to he confined exclusively to
counties, the inonied interest would always prevail
in the towns. It was desirable that monied men
should ob sin seats, but not that they should pun.
chase them by the bare dint of money. For it
often f Il into strange pockets, and he did not wish
that those who were inclined to hazard more money
this they could spare, should have an opportunity
of hidulging their speculation guineas in the
House of Commons. If the Honounible
tkoneu wished to create a difficulty in voting
against the motion, they would mot cio it more
effectually than by introducing Parliamentary Re-
form, and requiring a direliction of their mineiples
from thaie who were inelhied to oppose the motion
on its own grounds. He concluded with fuming
au Aruendinewt. 't That that pait of the charge,
which went to affix to Lord Castlereagh the charge.
or unduly ineueoeing a Meut:ier of that House to
desert his duty, should be entertained, and sent to
a Committee."

The SeeacLa oh‘.ersed, thrt• though it aUi per-
fectly ►egulrr to make an oral charge, it W;III usual
to iii-ert it in the Jourii.ils after it had been made
he hoped the lion. Nleniber would assist the Clerk
to insert it in the Joni-Imi'.
After a few further words between the SPEAKER
andMr.:_ricas EY ;

Mr. Win fifteen said. that he rose under great
disadvantage, site: tae 9prech of his Right Him.
Friend; because hr 41$ truly and sincerely- his
friend, Isecanse the was most eloquent in
itself, and because .n.iny things had fallen from
him at which he was surprised and disappointed.
He (Mr. W.) steod in the situation of one who tied
seconded themotino ; aid if it was true that all who
concurred were under the dominion of party feelings
and party 'prejudices ; he, a•nosig the rest, must
fill owlet the lash of his Houourahle Friend. He
had heard part of the speech of his Honourable
Friend before, not indeed in the same worth; be
used that night, but 'when. under the influence
of popular feeling, and patriotic intention, he come
forward with those very argument, to which he hail
now replied. anti which he had the mortiticsti;in of
liearin;; re lied to' in toe manner at last :Woo-
ed by ionised. Del the Right Hon. Gent. look
back to the ;eland in w;!'eh bes pri,;,nwel Parlia-
mentary Retor.n, and did he think that it was on-
necessary and unpopular at that moment? For his
part he (ail.. W.) looked back with pride and antis-
faction to the effort which he made in common with
the Honourable Gentleman to do that which, if it
was done, would, he was persuaded, protium the
hest consequences upon the community at large.
A Right Houourable Friend of his had mentioned
the different eras of Parliamentary RefOrm ;
the last of which was the ferment created by the
investigation into the conduct of the Duke of
York; but before any attempt was made to censors
that spirit, they ought to consider that the pnblic
were in possession of the whole of the evidence.;
they did not decide from ignorance and presump-
tion, but from a knowledge of the fact, and an ex-
ercise of the judgment, to which they were perhaps
as competent as any Member in the House.
The Right Hon. C;entlensan had complained of an
att.telc upon public melt. Those unconnected with
the Ministry, a, well a, those who were connectv.l,.
were public men ; and they, in their endeavours to
instruct the public mind, and advance the public
cause, had shin attacks to complain of, and
treatincut to disaporove and resent. An Ho.
Pourable Gentleman had said that he would no
more thank the Hoes. Wirer for bringing forward
this charge, than he would thank Mrs. Clarke
for her purity. Unmixed motives newer entered
into the heart of man, so weak was human nature.
that Cuto himself was not entitled to the praise
of motives wholly unmixed. For himself, altho' he
acknowledged he was not entitled to it, he would do
all ha could for the benefit of his country; and whe-
ther he had to contend against the tide of unpopu-
larity, within or without doors. that object 'Mould be
in his view : in supporting Parkeinelitary Reform..
he was Coll9Wrlllillg to that object ; for he sincerely
believed it would be gwoJuctive of good to The coun-
try. The Rt. Hon. Gentleman rippowie opposed
the motion, Upon the ground that it was the first of
a series which was to end in Parliamentary Reform ;
at the same time that he declared hunwlf really to
make war upon corruption. he (Mr. W.) would
be glad to know when the light would begin ?
The greatest men of threconnuy were friends to
the measure, and would the Right Honour-
able Gentleman set tip his authority against them ?
His Right Hon. riiend near him seemed to
der the transaction as he would the purchase of any
individual ; brit the case will widelj different when
•

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