The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1819-12-17 00:00:00

MR. OWEN'S PLAN.

Sir WM. DE I.7II,ESPIONY, in proposing to the
House the consideration of Mr. Owen's Plan,
hoped to receive from the Members of his Niajerly's
Govei ument the same spirit of conciliation which
they had *hewn oil Temlay night. Ile rose on
the present occasion not only with considerable em-
barrassment, but with real indisposition, he
therefore hoped he should receive the indulgence of
the House.—(/leer, /,ear.)—He had hoped, in-
deed, that sonic Member more conversant with
Parliamentary discussion would have stepped for-
ward on this occasion to be the advocate of the dis.
tressed poor, and the mover of en investigation into
the merits of a plan intended for their amelioration.
Nothing but a warm anxiety fr the benefit of his
fellow-creatures, and a wish to enlarge their com-
forts, so far as it was in his power to du so, prompted
bins to snake the present motion.—(Hear, hear.)—
This was tsot a question of party, but one of huma-
nity ; lie flattered himself therefore that both sides
of the House would unite, anti by a common effort
adopt a spirit which would be the harbinger of bet-
ter time.. The increused sod increasing evil of
pauperism demanded the immediate attention and
interposition of the Legislature. Poverty was the
parent of wretchedness, and wretchedness was the
nurse of discontent, which was often the forerunner
of commotion, and not unfrequeutly of revolution.
These evils ought surely to be• guarded against.
There were now many thousands, perhaps millions.
of families in this empire almost totally destitute of
the siecesiaries of life ; yet the soil on which they
lived, if living it could be called, was fertile, anti
the skill and industry of the people proverbial.
Why then not, by the adoption of a comprehen-
sive plan, give relief to all, particularly when this
could be done without doing harm to any ? It was
the universal cry, both within and without the
House. that something should if possible be done
to relieve the working classes. Here then was that
• possibility developed. The higher classes must
condescend to Investigate the misery of the lower—
that House must do so—if they did not, he o.ould
predict that 'his osier happy country must be in-
volved, at no distant period, in eventual ruin. He
had to propose a plan, many parts of which, he
thought, were calculated to• avert such wit tell ;
it demanded minute investigation and the closest
scrutiny ; the proprietors of it eagerly sought
both, and were ready to demonstrate its utility.
That ;louse had fur years been prodigal of an itu-
inclose espeoditure. lie might say fur the destruction
of cosisikomil ; would it now turn away from the
cousiderutiosi of a plan fur their salvation ? Let
not his plan be called, without inguir.y. visionary;
or if there were airy disposed so to describe it, let
them come forwaid with their own plan to relieve
the poor, and it should hate iris support. The real

..~.^ = -

-40r4EigrA

fact was, that the working Classes could not contend
against the increased powers of mechanises; one
of three mutts insist therefore follow:—first, the
powers of tueelositism must be considerably Jinn-
isished, or numbers of wretched people must perish
for want of etnpleyment ; secondly, some odva...-
tageows occupation most be futiod to relieve their
necessitie., or the meclinsiiral power. must be made
subservient to their fibula; thirdly, a oroxlerate
change, ameliorating their condition step by step,
must be adopted, or the country will he exposed to
an abrupt and momeutons change, brought about
by folly or ignorance, and perhaps eisiliiig in revo-
lution. At present the truettsployed classes of
the poor lived to and consumed a part of the
labours of the indlistriotos.—(llear.
They not only lived in that manner, but they en-
gendered and communicated the contagion of bad
habits, and became in the end pests in tascirtY.
Prevention wall the great merit of Mr. o.ven.'s
plan; early education, rod the imprinting ',post the
tender mind the seeds of virtue, were the means by
which this great ohject was to be attained. lie
never should forget his visit to New LIM', k. and.
what moat struck his mind there was the system of
infant education. It commenced at the early age
of two years, and he saw upon a plat of play.
ground several hundred little children indulging in
play, and exhibiting to each other all the iotered-
ing marks of mutual affection. The whole re my
of New Lanark was striking—old and young went.
to work with alacrity, and sheeted the Most earliest
desire to appear industrious and cheerful. The
worthy Baronet then read two letters, which strongly
recommended the adoption of Mr. Owers's
plau—
one of them was from the Bishoo of Chester. which
pointed out the necessity of making the experiment
tirtin a small scale, and urged the propriety of its
being tried by parochial arrangements,. fie could
lint suppose that his Majesty's Mihisters would re-
fuse to institute inquiry for such a ',orlon.e as he
now proposed. if the whole plan %vete tint ap-
proved mu a Committer, perhaps part, 4.1 it may be
deemed worthy of trial. There sus ho (Loser in
the forest from which the bee could out cull some
honey, send even if any one part were ailopi.,4l, 'he
labour of a Committee would be repaid. Mr.
Owens plan consisted of the Implication of a number
of acientihe arratigeineuts in the various cl.-,es lit she
poor, SO as to enable them, by a caminuiaty of ears--
host, to obtain ailtquute support, more particulaily
in spade cultivation. This had been tried with
(WS by Mr. Fallon at Newcastle. Whro Adam
Smith wrote his Treatise on the Wealth of Notions.
the great object was to increase the wealth of Ate
country—that had. since Adam Smith's flume, to-
creased beyond till expectation. so that it be.
came actually necessary to reorganize and re.
model the system of the poor. to prevent theta
from enduring all the horrors of waist. Both Isti-
inanity and policy required ibis revision, anti
Ire hoped the Muse would nut turn a deaf ear
to his tootigh, which was for the spimiutment of a
Comtnittee to impoire into the nature of the Plan of
Robert Owen, E•quirr. and to report thereon, how
far Ilse whole or any part of it was calculated to
ameliorate the condition of the poor, or edict bent-
ticial employment for them, by an application I.r
sums from the p'out's Rates, to render available
their industry.

Lord A. fl•mtt.Tox, in seconding this motion.
said he did so because he had been so long accus.
loomed to see the operation of Mr. Owen's plan.
and because he knew the distressed stale of the
surrounding poor in Lanarkshire, awl that they
looked to the examination of this plan, us present-
ing
n foundation for their relief. In seconding this
inosion, lie begged not In hr considered as support.
log the whole system of ilr. Owen in its hill ex-
tent. He knew that a strong opinion prevailed
upon that point. All he should require wus, au
ii.qiiiry which might unfold the tilsiis that were to
be submitted to a Committee, and thew how fir
any of throb were urscocable, and calculated to
give transtrot rt-litl to the !looter classes. The
Noble Lord then gave the ltigh..t.t Character to the
arrangenienta of Mr. Owen, at New Lanark. and
spoke in the warmest terms of the philanthrocy of
that geollenuot. He repeated, that in supporting
this motion, he did so for the sake of the feeling
of the countiy, and did lint mean to pleilee
hitp-
self to any pail of the plan, except that which
could hr demonstrated as tifisolOte ly practica!,:e.
Mr. BROUGHAM rose thus rainy tit state his
opinion on this iiiiportaiit stlbjeCt. Were the
House called nu at once to embark in the gene.
nil plan of Nit. Owen, he should without lic.itation
recommend them to shut their rats against it ; this
would have been a dauger which It would have beets
imperative Upon Own' to avoid ; but there wa4 at ill
doodler to steer clear from—they niu•t take care
in a period of distress and alarm, alien lei twiny
fancies and idle theories were abroad, to take
especial care not to give sanction to wild and
getirrid plans. which could only rod in mortification
and disappointment. To do so would diminish
their power of usefulness, and prevent them Irons
giving effect to a sound good plan, if such should
c before them. The most unsubstantial port
of Mr. Owen's plan was his conviction of having
the means to giie lull support to a redundant
potation. In that he wholly differed Irons hint.
Ile thought the leading cause of the present Mr
tress was the excess of population. On this sub-
ject the worst and most insisted part of the public
press had done a west deal by sophistry and nth.
directed ingenuity, i,nd by the most perverse and
active means, to unhinge the public mind, and
create in it a hostile letting towards some of the
wisest. tile most humane, and benevolent
iudtei-
duals, whose polity was described us being cruel
and hard-hearted. The west evil was 1111 iiivredi.e
of population beyond the demand for l.il
this respect interinaniages were entitled to :tritons
consideratioil. where tte parties were in a viiii:otiosi
ill suited to the imenitehmice of a !Molly. It al,uld
be well If this forethought cook' be eXeici.ed ow
such occasions. Fir could not venture to propose
any remedy for this evil; to attempt it would
toot only be to excite a great degree of hostility
against the individual, but also to diiiiiiiish his
power of u.eluliseas. He differed fa.) (trio
trout Mr. Owen's plats of establishing a c
'tonality of properly, and was fully convinced it
would create a greater evil than that which it was
his oliject to remedy. Mr. Owen altogether
lowed the law of population, owl it wus huts- risible
in die slightest degree to convince him of the eri.be
of Ws opinion. Ile agreed very much iii parts of

the details of the plan, more particularly lit the
system of educating 'mil training young children of
the tenderest age. The adoption of ibis ;Hirt of the
plan, he thought, would he emenently useful ;
hut he would tint convent to support it tlitungli the
I means of public grinds. He had no doubt the
! lest weans of promoting such ass object would
be by the nil of private benevolence. which
was always happily exercised to this country,
whenever the appeal %vita made with real end
just cause. To take away infant children from
their parents, merely to enable the latter to
avail theinselveg of work. w as ro itself as 411-
pm-hint step. lie meant merely 111111 t 1 place should
tie provided in nhicli those cl,thlreo could lie placed
merely for care-eke, and 11411 1.,,r fund and clusiniig,
etiriog the hums of wellt of the parent. This
nimbi afford no stimulus to the idleness of the
parent, hut would give the relief which would en.
able many parents to contribute in a coasoil.rable
degree to their support. 1 ills dl r. Omen's plan
was calculated to ell-ct—it did hot, like the plan
in Switzerland. which lie i,ad t 14rwlitre ii scribed,
sever the parent from the child, bit left the, latter
to exhibit to the former the risits4 advantages of
culture and training which piac!icrille exlidiiteii the
great advaittages of education. This part of Mr.
Owen's plan, thererre, did not I,,se the reflex of
the improvement of the parrot, by the superior
developetneut of the good habits of :lie child. This
plan was stow its a course of adoption at
• Brewer's.greirn. Westminster, under the patron-
age of wrensl public characters. However
objectionable was the propositims to apply the
general plans and theories of Me. Owen to the
tams of common life, in the unqualified manure in
which he propounded them, no tribute could be
too high for the character and motives of the indi•
• lie inad known Mr. Owen for • long time:
he was as Worst, as simple. and as amiable n in..
as ever existed. lie had one quality, in lwrticular,
which could wirer be too much admired—be was
the best-tesopeted NOM opals earth, and though a
projector, he was Most liberal and tolerant to Isis
opponeatta, he heard their opinions without pas.
Mon. and evinced all the feelings of the kindest
heart that ever belonged to roan ; its conver-
'Aim, he satisfied those with whom be spoke. that
lhr promutiou of truth. and the benefit of mankind,
alone actuated him ; and as be was 'firefly with.
out gall,- an was be quite free from that feverish irri-
tation which pre ctors generally evinced when
flowered in their favourite pursuits. Mr. Often was.
on the whole.otie of the best and most pacific per-
sona in sociely.—/ /Afar, /oar.)-14 had. with his
usual kindness,. given the nitwit establialsoirof to
which he (Mr.,. Brougham) alluded, the valuable
mill of a auperiiiiciiilasit, in every way qualified
for the trust. The great object in all these spe-
culations was to demmotrate their practical utility,
and lie fully concurred in the great advantage
which the couutry must derive from the improved
mode of educating the children of the poor. The
benefit or Dame Schools (as they were called) is
this respect was great. and had beets felt its every
pert of the conntry in the most striking manner.
With reference to the system of spade husbandry.
be ass not a suelcietit agriculturalist to pronounce
an 00111011 Upon it. Let it be tried. In admitting
the value of mete of the details. he wished parti•
cularly to guard himself against being supposed to
go the length of advocating wild and impracticable
doctrine*. There was some, perhaps. touch good,
in Mr. Owen's plan, and the reason why be should
vote for a Committee was, that an opportouity be
afforded of separating the good front the iinpractsce-
hie in the whole range of the plan.
The CHAXCILLOR of the Est-um:ma heartily
coneitireil in the opinion of Ike Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, that all experiments of this kind ought
to be made upon a limited basis, mill by private aid.
It was the boast of this country, that no questions
of benevolence. men of every political seeitiment
united, and forgetting the minor distinctions of
party, alone manifested a disposition to promote
the common welfare. He was ready to concur in
the compliments paid to the character and motives of
Mr. Owen. and to admit the value of his establish-
meld. but he could Dever consent to give the sanc-
tion and authority of Parliament to the general ap-
plication of a plan which he considered visionary,
delusive, and is the highest degree dangerous.—
lo 1817 there were two tact-tinge held in the me-
tropolis ou the subject of Mr. Owen's plan—one
held ms the 13th August, 1817. another oil the
21st of August. where Mr. Owen was suffered to
gu into a detail of hie principles and views. In his
speech on that occasion he Paul. that the world had
been in a state of error, crime. and misery, but the
hoods that held it so were likely to be broken
asunder. He sail, that the causes of the present
unhappiness were the existence of gross errors in the
fundamental notions of every religion; that he was
not of the religion of the country, or of any other
religion that was ever yet thought of its the world.
lie next stated his political schemes; it appeared to
him that the intervals or the governors have been ever
opposed to the interests of the governed ; that law
sod placation were the greet evils and curse of society.
t He (Ilse Chancellor of the Exchequer) hail every
respect fur the heneyslence of Mr. Owen, but the
Motion could not be adopted by that House with.
out giving countenance to theories which were as
wild as they were dangerous. At the cneeting of
the 21.1 of August, where the lion. Alderman
ttrposite (Waldman) was present, it was finally
held that there was tin effectual remedy for the dis.
tresses of the people but in a reform of the represen.
talon of the people.--(A laugh.)--Thus with
some permits, no matter what project might be
started, universal suffrage was the grand psonces
Gar the relief of the country. Whilst he fell him-
self hound to oppose the 'notion. lie yet welshd be
sorry to see rejected what was really useful and
practical iu 111 r. thveri's plats; whatever of it was
useful the couotry would adopt without the inter-
feitoce of that House. The plan of education.
as described by the Ibin. and Learned Gentleman
(Mr. Brougham) would go on. and would be beat
supported by the public benevolence. A meeting
woo held iii the present year on the subject of Mr.
Owen's play, when s public subscription was set on
loot ; and though the lion. Baronet contributed (4
great proof of the sincerity of his i•uppori), the polio:
welt. not, however, PO 081101111 C ; and in London.
the twat of so tuueli wealth and liberality. there acre,
lie believed. but very few subscriptions, a proof that
the public feeling did not approve of the plats itself.
Willing as he was to applaud the sincerity of the

now. Baronet, he with equal sincerity would
that he would not support a plan founded en'.
speech which declared, that all religious were false,
and that nil governments were had.
Mr. Jones Sstiyii, alter paying a 11;gli tribute to
the worth rod benevolence of Mr. Owen, said that
he could slot agree with the Right Hon. Gentleman,
that because Mr. Owen lurid relietuus oninions that
were false, that therefore his plan should fee reject•
ed oltogether. His plan had been acted on for 4
years, his establishment at Lanark had flounshed.
and during that time there was not one solitary in.
stance of an individual having been Itpunt,lit 1,44,
• Magistrate charged with a crime. Of what ss.
tablishosent, of whit society could .ann.
said ? He put it then to the Hons., witrth,
oughtf a
nfi:ri
?ner'oot be he
listened
wailigrieshritietell itiwiaehdle; ,cterhffs u,illsece4 hiitorun;irier I:l,l.l:.otetr(teits--:
on
pus
to remove the turbulent awl disagreeable passions
incident to childhood. and it was difficult for our
man to are the youth under his care without 'riot-
ing that his sons had the benefit of a similar ruts'.
cation. Such, certainly, was his feeling. If *
Committee were granted to the Hose. Barnett,
it did not appear to him necessary to enter on the
question of the Poor Laws. but it would be ne-
cessary to hike into cousideration 11:e state of the
present flostress—and was that. he s.ked, an ohjec-
to the motion ? Were the Right Host. Gra_
!lentil' or his colleagoes prepared to go into any
inquiry on the state of the (poor? If they were not,
they ought not to oppose a plots. Why should they
oontose nn itujoiry which might be atlrooded %wit
salutary effects? It was a softie( t of deep :ll-
terest, and they ought not to win until they he-
came afraid to loek at it, and unable to meet it.
The Cita Nati.i.oa of the EICIICQUER expl4ined.
Eh did nut opinio, the mono., bec.uote of the F.-l!.
000 or want of reit:two of Air. (Nei), lint lore:plot
hie plan
was founded on ininCipirl SUbVlrilliVC of
religion tool of I.:overnment.
Mr. lltcanno said, that the plan of Mr. Owen
was divided solo two parts; of the first pint,
Owen had a itrtat deal of experience, and deserved
a past ,deal stf attention ; the other part
mere speculation. The means of education adopt-
ed by . Mr. Owen were means which might he
inlep4d by large establishments, lint it was not
right mproper far Government to interfere its them.
That part of the plan which he called speculative.
was opposed to all the principles of political ecumas
my. He never could think that machutiery
do mischief roan; country, either in its immediate
orits permanent effect. Machinery, indeed, its of e
way. might he carried ion tar, that is, -where it is
employed is the manufacture of a particular commo-
dity. as fur instance, in the manufacture of colt,
it
but where the individual extended it too would
not repay him, sod he would be soon obliged no re-
dace it, or employ it in soother channel. Indeed,
Mr. Owen himself, though an enemy to inschinery,
now proposed an improvement in it—he a tithed toeet
rid of horses at the plough, and to substitute spade
husbandry ; his object was to increase the whole
produce of the country, but if machinery tended
more than any other menus to increase that produce.
in that ease it was clear that the employment of
machinery was useful to society. Machinery re-
quired neither clothes nor food, whilst the use of it
far beyond sill other means produced an isicrea,e of
produce. Though he did not agree with Mr. Owen
its his general principles, still he was in favour of a
Committee. Part of the plan recommended by
Mr. Owen was for the increase of the growth of
corn ; that, in itself, was a question of great im-
portance; and if the facts were true on which his
plan was founded. and there appeared to Into
?pi:rm./heir evidence, he thought the thing might be
adopted with great advantage. As a general princi-
ple he was not in favour of Government interfering
in objects which individual, alone should carry into
effect; but though Government ought not to in-
terfere, it might give great information, and there-
fore he was in favour of any parliamentary inquiry
which would tend to bring facts before the public.
and to slew the points where the public interest lay.
Such inquirier would be always attended with bene-
ficial effects. for where men saw the path of their
interests, they would not be slow in porsuiug it.
lie thought, therefore, that thought it ought to be
left to every man to attend in his own manner to his
own affairs, vet that it was the first duty of Go-
vernment to give information to the people on any
branch of commerce or of agriculture ; where Go-
vernment would point out the best plats to he adopt-
ed, the people would be always found to run eagerly
into it. As to the cartes of the present dustiest., lie
'night be allowed to soy a few words. It appeared to
him that the distress of the country proceeded frogs
snore causes than one—first, as to population. It
was a principle with him that capital and popula-
tion regulated wages; when the population in-
creased, it was therefore necessary to increase capi-
tal. lie heard it stated the other night, that for
the purpose of employing the poor. new road,
should he made. and public works should be un-
dertaken; but these works could not be carried on
without the employment of capital. It appeared
to him that without this, solid foundation, they
would only create misery on the one hand, without
atlindiug relief on the other. The cause of the
distress was principally the insufficiency of ca-
punt, and the iusufficiency of capital might he
accounted for its various ways, for which Govern-
ment in some instances was not to blame. Suppose
a comity of great population, of large capital, anti
with it limited soil—the profits of capital in such is
country were lower than in a country wine',
had not these advantage., and of course cainf..t
would be sent out of a country where the loroMt%
were low, to be employed sit a country wheie tit.-
profits were high. But men wished to have their
property under their own eyes, and fur the purpose,
of convemeoce and security, they were its general
inclined to remain with their capital, even though
they received but *mall profits; but recording as
gOrrrIMICMI became unproved in their institutions,
alid according as the security of the foreign country
increased, new motives arose for rending capital
away from the place where profits were low, to rut-
ploy it in that country where the profit, set rr high.
Such were site causes that attracted capital nut or
this country. The loos of that capital caused the
loss of employment, and the people were in conse-
quence reduced to distress. But what steps could
he taken to prevent this mischief ?—what means could
be taken to present prolitartellt ben% lower in this'

country than in others ? Ele did not say they coold
aloigether prevent that, but had they not aggra-
vated the tnischiefthey out added tirtiti-iol
„woo to those which had eoiated ? They dud
in a variety of ways : they did so by their
Corn Lsws---coln regulated wages, wages became
higher when the Corn Laws were established.
According as wages became high, profits became
low, because the produce of manufacturer was di-
videsl amongst those who laboured and theory who
furnished capital; but the greater quantity of the
profits must be given to the labourer when corn
was high, and therefore the smaller quantity re-
ensined for the capitalist. This was one reason why
capitol was exported from England. Another cause
„r distress were the 111111fIte fetters upon trade—the
numufactured omit: ea which ilwy might import
or better quality, and km less expense. This, it
seems, was done by way of retaliation—lie looked
ea it as impolitic: let other Governments act as
they pleased. England Amid act on the en.
larged principles of commerce. and according
to her interest and her policy. Auselter cause
sidle distress of the country, one of its greatest
causes, was the national debt. Instead of paying
their yearly expenses as they arose, they pur-
sued a 'totem of borrowing, owl as they increaa-
sal their 114)1. they increased their taxation. So
eivorinans did this debt appear, and so great the
Taxes that were levied, that it because with many
matter of consideration to leave the country alio-
,ather—for the profits arising from their business
and their capital, however large, were carried away
by the great expenditure nrcesaary in a ',smutty
where taxation was so high. List year the l'ar-
hainent took a wise course, the steps they limit
to return to payments in specie. They hail
got into a had system—they saw the iiicoteve-
metier, of it—and with becoming wisdom they
set ahnut to retrace their steps ; but it would
have liven dangerous, with one jump, to go from one
system to another, though it was to go from good
to bad. Their remedy was gradual as it was war;
they did not attempt to return to a state of cash
payments in one year, nor in two, but they took
three or four years iii order to effect their object.
It VIA his 0111111011 that they should pursue the saute
svoem with respect en the Corn Laws. The Corn
Laos, like the paper system, was an error; lint in
cents quecce of theve laws much capital was ex-
pended under the supposition that they would
emainue as the permanent law of the laud.—
To repeal the Corn Laws immediately, would lie
therefore an injuatice—the faith of Parliament was
pledged, but they could say, that on the repeal of
those laws, like the return to payment to specie,
ultimate good ass their object. The Corn Laws
were bud, they militated against the public pros-
perity, and after giving due notice, and a fair op-
portunity to those who might be involved by a
sudden return to the accustomed course, they
might in some years he repealed; and they ought
to be repealed, in order to come to a wise and good
system. The same argument might he urged with
respect to the fetters on the trade of the country; the
course they had pursued was injudicious, and ought
to be corrected. On those great points it was wise
to acknowledge their error, and to give Notice to
the public to rettare their steps. With respect to
the notional debt, he knew he held °plutons dif-
ferent front most other persons—those opinions he
knew would be treated as extravagant, but he
would boldly say, that his plan would be to pay
off the national debt; he would sacrifice much
of capital for the purpose of redeeming the
debt. He did not mean to pay off the debt
as it stood at par—he did not think that the
public creditor hod any such claim—but paying
the debt at the price of the market would he
doing justice to that creditor, und would be re-
deeming the public faith of the country; and he
was convinced that every man in the country would
willingly sacrifice part of his capital in order to pay
off the debt. It might he said that those who had
not ready money, and whose profit lay in laud,
would be obliged to bring the land to market, in
order to meet the general contribution, but co
many coating to the market would depreciate the
price of the land. He did not ore the validity of
that argument—for the stockholder would be na-
turally desirous to invest his capital in land,
either to purchase it altogether, or on the frith of
lataled security to lend to the farmer or the landlord
the money which hefore be had lent to the Govern-
ment: he would be obliged to do so, fur Goverroneut
would no longer borrow, amid he could not invest his
capital in another way. Hence it appeared to him
that the difficulties were by no menus so great on this
head as many thought them to he. The resources
of the country were yet very great, and it appeared
to him that she had by no means arrived at the limits
of her greatness or prosperity. If those temptations
were removed which seduced capital away from
the country and caused it to be invested iu
foreign funds—if one great effort was made to re-
IllOve the debt, aid consequently to decrease taxa-
tion, commerce would flourish more than ever, and
the country would arrive to a much higher pitch of
greatness and prosperity than they had ever seen.
Air. N. CA LTERT expressed himself against the

motion.
Mr. Alderman WAITIIMAN said he was convinced
of the good intentions itild the benevolent views of
Mr. Owen, and lw lamented that certain opinions of
his were both wild and visionary; lout where his
plan had been tried, nod had worked so well, surely
whatever might have been his religious opinions,
his objects, where they tended to the amelioration
of society, ought at least to receive encourage-
nano. He was friendly to a Committee, even if
:t were only to shew that the views and objects of
Mr. Owen were erroneous ; the Report of that
tCommittee would be conclusive—thee plan would
he encouraged if it erere good, ur abandoned if it
were false.
Lord A ITIIORP said, that in the general views of
his Hon. Friend (Mr. Ricardo) lie entirely agreed :
-they were the sound views of a profound econo-
mist. As to the Corn Laws, when they were intro-
duced, he was averse to them, so much so, that he
never could give them his support. As to trade,
he was averse to a commercial treaty ; but if Eng-
land took the produce of France, France in return
ought to take the produce of England. Such an
understanding might he made without a commer-
cial treaty. He expressed I self against the
Committee; he could nut agree with the worthy
Alderman that they ought to go into an inquiry.
merely to prove that the plan was a bad one. if it

were good, if spade husbandry, or any other pm.
ject was of advantage to the public, undoubtedly
the public, without any recommendation from
Parliament, would adopt.
Mr. CsAcitarr expressed himself against the
plan of Mr. Owen ; it was one which he coosiderell
calculated to create mischief and alarm. It was

necessary, however, for the Parliament to do some.
thing in order to give employment to the loner
classes; a great deal was expected from Parlia-
ment—a great deal too much. Parliament could
not do every thing. hut they might do something to
ameliorate the present distress. and to chew the
people that the House Felt for their situation. He
did not, he said. questi the benevolence of Mr.
Oren, anti he would recommend the Hon. Poirotort
to withdraw his motion, anti not to hartril the itn.
Pression against his ohject that a majority of that

Eli/Use wii likely to ro;ke.
Sir CUARLES BURRELL said, that spade him.
!toothy MIIN by no means a new system, it had been
tried in molly parts of the county of Kent. It
would be little better than bringing b'ek
lure to a elate of nature if spade hu•bmudry were to
be employed in preference to the mode of conies-
lion now adopted. With respect to the Corn l.'s's,
it was Ili!' opinion that they ought to he ■mended ;
he thott4lit a certain tax ou the importation of fo-
reign corn would he necessary for the protection of
the English fanner, and would be a source of re-
cent'''.

Mr.WILIIIRIPottce said, the plan appeared to hint
very objectionable; there was an erro► in it, which
he could not sutler to 101*3 without pointing out to
the consideration of the. House. It contemplated s
subversion of that good old system of Christianity,
unde► which the country had grown op from bar-
bari.n► to the highest degree of political conse-
quence and national glory. It proposed to fling off
that beautiful system, and go back to that system
of Heathenism, the best professors of which,
however they might he vaunted for partial instances
of wisdom anal virtue, committed acts which, had
they lived in these timer, wool I have brought them
to the gallows. Nevertheless he was anxious to do
every thing that could he done for the distressed
poimlabon; and he felt confident that the House
would not separate without going into deliberation
on that subject. He complimented Mr. Ricardo
on the great knowledge lie possessed of political
economy, and the new light in which he had placed
many interesting topics connected with it. He
was right in co►►sidering the stele of the country, as
it respected our commerce and finance, all unnatural
state. But then were there not many things neces-
sary to be done in such a State, which in the ab-
stract, and considered entirely by themselves, would
be utterly improper, and wholly unallowable to a
na-
tural state? He could nut help observing the great
wealth, and at the same time the great distress
which existed in this country. He saw immense
property enjoyed by persons who were in the attain
celebrated for their benevolent inclinstions; lie
saw also the most extreme poverty among other
claseee. Ile could not help wishing to see them
joined together, and he was certain that wish was
generally prevalent. He thought the country was
going forward to the perfecti almost of national
happiness aid glory, which it would reach, not-
withstanding the greatness of present difficulties, by
the extensive application of early religious educe-
time The reason why the ancient states were in
the habit of using the comparison of infancy and
its after progressions, when speaking of their na-
tional existence was, that false notions were incul-
cated when young, which, though glossy and
specious, would net bear the light of mature
knowledge. But England, with the glorious dis-
pensations of Christianity for her support, and its
pure and benign morals for her guide, might pro-
mise herself the most lasting pence and security.
The Hon. Member, after again enforcing the objec-
tion contained in the plan, which was, diet it cotes
templaterl a community of goods, sat down.
Mr. Alderman Wool) would not detain the
House more than a few minutes. The objections
urged against Mr. Owen's plan were general, and
yet almost every person so objecting, made sonic
admission in its favour. It certainly ought not to
be thrown out, as seemed to be the prevailing dispo-
sition, merely because it was Mr. Owen's plan.
The great difficulties under which the country la-
boured, as had been repeatedly acknowledged, was
the want of employment for labour and capital.
This subject bad been frequently before Parlia-
ment, and, in some instances, it was deemed pro-
per for Government to interfere and lend its assist-
ance to remedy the difficulty. Now, what said the
excellent Report of the Commissoners, who had
been four years in Ireland, to examine auto the state
of agriculture, and to ascertain the quantity of
waste lands? Acco►ding to them, there were
2,500,000 acres lying waste. And what did they
assign us the cause of its so lying waste ? Why,
the want of capital. There were. beside., the
waste lands in England. Ile knew of one spot,
which, if properly cultivated under this plan, sup-
pose, would yield stistenence for 20,000 families.
valuing them as 80,000 persons, and return 200,0001.
to Government besides. Mr. Owen's plan ought
certainly to be referred to a Committee. It had
been successfully adopted in commerce; what
should prevent its efficacy in agriculture? Those
who objected to it, from the dread of too greatly
increasing the quantity of VOID, did not consider
that the co►►ntry paid thirteen millions annually for
grain beyond what the country could produce.
Many more millions were also paid out of the coun-
try bar flax and other commodities, which the
worthy A Idernieu ennmerated. cnif which he insisted
might be and ought to be produced front the waste
lands and surplus !Amur of the CO !!!! try. If other
plans were offered. if Ministers had any plan for
elreettitilly and prolitubly employing the pauper
population, they should produce it, and the Hon.
Baronet would doubtless withdraw his motion;
otherwise be was right in persirting, and should
have his support.
Sir C. Mans:Le observed, that no surplus grain
was grown, simply for want of encouragement.
Mr. MAXWELL wished to refer the plan to a
Committer.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY thought the misrepresents..
lion of the Member for Bramber most unjust. A
deputal had visited Lanurk, and witnessed the
purest moral habits which could l,e enjoyed by a
society so occupied. Mr. Owen, it was true, had
declared, without any disguise, his own opinions on
religion, but he wisely abstained from propagating

theta amoupt the inliabitanta of Lanark. It was
too much for the Hon. M,,,iiher to repreaeut his
establishment as an othtistical college, and to per-
vert the pure benevolence of Mr. Owen, when his
little commuility were us celebrated for their reli-
gions and moral deportment as fur their intel-
ligent, ti=eful, and industrious habits. He
thought that it was the peculiar character of
the Christian relit!. to lie able to statist alone,
unsupported by the secular arm. I finvever that
might be, Mr. Owen was very far from ',hewing
any di•positioil to attack it, and iii his einnblish•
ment it hail the utmost support from lint which he
could give it. If Cliiveriiinein would take no
step in the business—if they were resolved nut to
move in order to obviate the great calamities tinder
which the mannfactoring populatioti gronned, it
was proper to adopt n plan front some tither quit.
ter. For his part, he .should support that before
the [loose until a better should be presented.
Sir W. DR CRIMPIGN Y. in reply. said, be worthd
not detain the House live minutes. He complain-
eel of the misrepreseritation, out religious pretences,
which had been made. brcauire, if there was any
part of his case, in the examination of which he
bad been particularly guarded, it was that of reli-
gion. There could he nuthilig inr.re beautiful in
this respect titan latisrk. The *lien of its polio-
lotion repairing to the different places of wurslitp
on a Sunday morning, was a most gratifyirig sights
There was no community of
had been assumed by en lion. Member: each
man hail a little cottage to himself and his family.
It was onle a community of intereat which dist'''.
guisheil Lanark from other places, and which hut
produced effects equally 1111Tints.111;:: mud pleasing.
If Ministers had any plan to propose to meet the
difficulty of a large unoccupied II:Iodation, he
would withdraw lies, but not otherwise.
. .

The gallery was cleared, and a division took
place—
Fur the Motion lll
•
Apiust it

Majority itEninst the %10ti0n.... US
DISTRESS IS RENFICONSHIRE.

When we returned,

Mr. Al AXWELL rose to propose his promised mos
tinn. lie lamented that his discourte must of neces-
sity be merely local. He bad been led so adopt his
present course by finding on his return to Renfrew-
shire from the last Session, the increased and forlorn
state of distress which prevailed there. The nibs-
!Maw% had for a loitg time refused to make any
appeal to their wealthy neighbours, AllhOUgh their
case was entitled to peculiar consideration. The
country found itself. after losing the advantages of
a considerable foreign trade, which hail increased
its numbers to an astonishing degree, surrounded
by a novel and distressed trowel:moo. Being
flung out front advantages loci enjoyed by that
commerce, an endeavour was made for the tine
to substitute artificial labour, such us repairing
roads, cleansing and digging Mild!. For this pur-
pose a large sum of money was raised among the
Gentlemen of the county ; a snood followed,
which was increased hv the Gentlemen of the
neighbouring counties; but finding there would be
Mt limit to these demands., they had determined on
applying to the Government for succutir. Their
claim was this, that they might not to be compelled.
in a season of urgent distress, to support it popu-
lation brought over to their neighboni hood by
extraordinary 111VPIIP, Wheel those Intents were no
longer available for their support. The weaving
system hail brought over a large quantity of
manufacturers from Ireland into that county.
The commercial advantages which enabled them to
support such augmented numbers were gone ; the
eximen.e of maintaining the labourers remained,
and was so great as to swallow up the whole rental
of the estates in many parts of the county. He
conceived that Ministers were called on to interfere
in a case so distressful ; it was a dereliction from
strict political economy. and they had a right
to be backward in applying the money of the
State to such objects generally. The case
he had *hewn then was an exception. which
fully warranted their deviation from the ac-
knowledged practice. The distress, though ex-
treme in his part of the country, was caused by cir-
cumstances which rendered it in some ineasure
easy to obviate it. He then stated some of the ge-
Derr% causes which had led to it—such as the system
of apprenticeships, winch admitted too many and
too young persons to the trade, the combination
laws, which prevented the turn front taking meats% to
secure such a compensation for their labours as to
be able to reserve some of it for r 'lesson of went or
inoccupation ; and, above all, overwhelming tax-
ation, which he conceived lul rers should not he
subjected to when unemployed, as they did not
pay it themselves, but it must come aut Of the
pockets of the benevolent. To remedy all this,
labour should be turned from maiittlactures to
agriculture; the Irish should be enabled to return
home, and the mass should be encouraged to eo►i-
grate. He pointed out the danger of tiegleeting
such distress, and leaving the inhabitants to the
influence of discontent, and the practices of Elting's-
log and seditious, men. lie then moved•—
" 'That there be laid before the House Copies of the Me-
morials remitted to the Lords of the Treasury, relative to
the distivases of the manufeeturing part of the populaiiim
of the County of Renfrew."

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
not oppose the motion. but he would state the
principles which would guide his future vote.
I (le could not take a shorter course in doin.,
than to read the official answer which had 104'11
remitted by his Majesty's Ministers to au applica-
tion the same sort of assistance by a Noble
Northern Duke on behalf of the labouring poor of
Lanark. The purport of the answer was, that
Ministers could not interfere in the way pro-
posed, still less were they disposed to assist the
chute of etnigration proposed in the application;
but if the Gentlemen of Lanark were inclined to
adopt the principle which had been acted on at
Glasgow, to apply the local funds to local improve-
menu:, the Government would grant them the saute
kind of assistance.
Mr. PRIMROSE supported the motion.
Mr. FINLAY bore testimony to the alecrity with
which Ministers had met an yppeal of the same na-
ture from his part of the country.
Mr. J. P. GRANT raid, it Was the part of the
Government and of the Parliament to interfere,
both all the MCCUUUt Of these unfortunate !Windt.,
and also that of the •ahule country. If the All-

ministration or the Parliament had by the necessary
consequences of a certain system involved these
people its the &siren which now npil . d therm,
they could not s:rt• we cannot &vitc a.iy remedy
hut the natural remedy for an overgrown ponola.
)))) . What *a* that natural remedy ? Starsa-

Lion, famine. disra.e, and death !—(Hear, hear.)—
Thii w.ia the way that Nliniater+ tier cries
of thousands of manufacturer• for bread. To up.
hold the abstract principles of political economy.
They would submit In the munitions aunlnaly of
leaving multitudes without food. while the other
cictase• of the cominunity eninverl it, in abulirlanee.
Fie admitted o.nt, 111)11111C!Villy Filed( Ina. 11041141 g
. . .

gratuitous relief to the labour-er, d tiniss.hed fromi
his stimulus sod motives of industry; but no
principle in political ec my was a mashemetical
truth, applicable to all possible cases. True Imlay
ticel economy consisted in applying previous know-
ledge for the removal of existing difficulties. If
the evils to be removed, or relieved, existed in that
district only. he elioalit be the lees anrprised ut the
answer of Ministers, but they were common to
tniiiie districts of Scotland.
Mr. HUSKISiON said that the speech of the Hon.
awl !awned Gentleman was one of 0, most ex-
traordinary he had ester heard in Parliament. Ile
bad asserted that his Nlajesty's Ministers looked
with perfect noliffiretice on the dostresses of the
Scotch mantrincturers. lint he (Mr. Huskisson)
asked him, if every thing load not been dune by
them which could be dories. It had been stated,
that they would allow the district to assess them-
selves. for the purpose of tweeting the present
exigency. and that as tans as they had communi.
Gated to Goverainient a resolution and plan to that
effect, that a suns of the public money wutild be ad-
veneer, thesis in the meals tittle. He was at a loss to
know why the some measure of relief should not be
adopted in this as in other manufectoring and weal-
thy districts. The Hon, and Learned Gentleman had
spoken a great deal of the distress the district now
suffered from the decay of manufactures. But he
asked him if it had not derived great benefits—if
landed property had not received an immense in-
crease of value from their growth 1--( Hear.)—And
why then should not the °woe's of dins improved
blurted properly contribute to relieve the present
warns of those to whom they had been before
so much indebted ? The Hon. and Learned Gen-
tlemen !lad said, that all was owing to the measures
of his Alstjesty's iMinisters; but he dill not recollect
what had hero said by the Hon. Member fur Taun-
ton (Mr. A. Baring), of the falling off in the de-
mand from America, in consequence of the distress
felt in that country, in is greater degree perhaps
than even here. But he challenged him to point
out what measure the Administration could adopt
beyond oh it they had avert! to. It was nit by
statements like his that industry was to he revived,
trade improved, and employment afforded to the
poor. Every thing might be done by restoring confi-
dence isi the resources of the country, and in the se-
curity of property; the* it was which would keep that
capital at twine. which otherwise would be forced
into foreign charnels. He send it was not fair to
impute to the policy of the Government the misfor.
tuner which now pressed upon the country, and still
Iris that the Government was not williug to afford
every possible redress.—( Hear.)
Mr. J. P. GRANT expleitied.
Mr. TIBRNEY allowed that the Government was
placed iu a very trying situation, but he thought
that, knowing as they did some months ago of this
state of things, they should have been provided
with some specific remedial measure. He made
every allowance for Gentlemen of Scotland who
were eye-wituesses of the deplorable misery the
House hail heard of, expressing themselves warmly.
(Hear.)—lf Scotland was in the state of starvation
which hurl been alleged, the people of that country
might mutually say to the Ministers. " Do some.
thing to save us from dying of hunger !" On the
other hand, it was urged, in many quarter., that
something ought to he dune to protect the coun-
try. Now Ministers had, for the latter purpose,
brought down live or six stomethiegs in the shape of
severe Rifts, but they did nothing to put food into
the mouths of the hungry manufacturers. He did
nut impute any of the inconveniences growing out
of the preparation for a return to a metallic cur-
rency to !Ministers, because he had been instru-
mental in hastening that change himself. He
thought it a question whether it was not rather
too much to require that all the evils which had
grown out of the flourishing state of manufac-
tures, *hookl be relieved nut of the supposed
wealth of the landed interest. If ever there was
a rase made out in which the House was called
on to interfere, either by a Committee, or in some
oilier why, it was the present.
Mr. IIIiSIIISSON explained.
AIARRTATT said he had heard it asserted in
ninny loyal iltititelitql that the distresses of the peo-
ple were temporary : he, on the contrary, believed
them to be interwoven wish our present condition.
M'lnle the war continued all went Oa in a flourishing
state. we eup;tlied the world with our manufac-
ture.. Then came the peace, when our manufac-
tures came into competition with those of the
Coutisient, where labour was cheaper than here,
and were in consequence undersold. To illus-
trate the consequence of this, lie had a list
of the trading vessels which entered the port of
Cuba for six months. Those from the .United
States of America were in [lumber 126; those from
Eurove 99, of which only 15 belouged to Great
; 18, lie was sorry to say. to France; and
:it to flollartil and the Hans Towns. After it was
discovered that a !marl of our martufactured com-
modities could he supplied on cheaper terms from
other parts of Europe. the first idea that sug-
gested 1.%0f to the master-manufacturers to meet
this difficulty was, to lower the puce of wages,
.slings wsa our cause of the present distress.
Tile landed ieterests also found it necessary to pro-
feel themselves by Corn Laws, which raised the
price of food ; but the poor lord sin meats of effect-
log a canal sponding advance in their wages. Aca
cordiugly the poor were now pressed by taxation in
a must disproportionate degree. The root of all the
evils woe enormous tuxittion.—(Hear.)—Some years
ago, the Chancellor of the Exchequer published a
new sa stens of firtance, by which he proposed that
the ..at al debt should be redeemed iu the year
11a37 ; Irot his whole scheme regard on the supposi-
tion that the country could bear the imposition of
slew 1317trg to a large amount. whereas when the
war was Ottf, the people would not be satisfied

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