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THE 1111ITISH PRESS;

illegal by the Statute. II is objection to these societies was, that
the) had been bouni by obligations at variance with the spirit of
the Constitution; tat objection existed also to the present Society,
and he therefore was induced to carry the operation of the Statute
further, and extend it to societies whose proceedings were—if not
in the same degree a least in not a less great degree—liable to dis-
approval. At preset he would merely lay the measure before
the House; its adopion in detail might furnish matter fur discus-
sion, but in the expediency and necessity of the measure itself, or
some such measure, to anticipated the general concurrence of the
House. The objects which he was anxious to embrace in it were
these:—The Act wasintended to extend to all societies assuming
to act for redress of grievances—of committees of permanent dun-
tins—of societies finned to levy or collect money. The measure
was further intended to extend to affiliated societies--to societies
which corresponded—to those which excluded persons on account
of their religious fate( hear, hear), or which were bound by any
other oaths than thole sanctioned by the laws of the country.
Exceptions would ix made for the exemption of societies from
the operation of the Act, which were formed for the purpose
of promoting arts aid agriculture, and also charitable associa-
tions. The mode of proceeding in such cases would be by
indictment, so that ice cases of vexatious prosecutions a right
of interference might ae reserved for the interference of the At-
torney-General. Another object of the Bill was to prevent pro.
secutions insittuted for party or hostile purposes. Such were tho
objects of the Bill, It carrying such objects he would repeat, that
he calculated on the general support of the House ; he would call
upon then to mark thee disapprobation of the proceedings ot a S I
ciety, which enctoached alike on the prerogative of the Crown and
the privileges of the people. The evil was • great one, and it re-
quilted a manly, determined, and energetic effort to suppress it.
On Other occasions they had not been backward to put down wade-
ties which they supposed weren't:misted to interrupt the peace and
prosperity of the country ; he hoped to ace • similar display of
WlB4lOlll and detemanauon on the present. Whatever measures
they might resolve upon, he was satisfied would be received
by the majority of ilea country with the respect due to the au-
.thority of Parhament. In the present measure there was need of
promptitutte as well as energy, in ortho that more persons may
not, by intermediate delay, be drawn into the vortex of dissension,
into winch this and other associations might delude them. Until
all societies were put down of a tendency to foment the unfortunate
animosities so lung prevalect in Ireland—until the spirit of Tell-
giock contention was extinguished—that country would continue
torn by those animosities and that contention, and it was in vain
to hope that she should enjoy that peace, prosperity, and happiness
which they were all so desirous and anxious she should enjoy.
(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving tor
leave to bring in a Bill to amend certain Acts relating to unlawful
Societies in Ireland.
Mr. J. SMITH said, that he was induced to rise thus early In
the debate from the interest he took in whatever concerned the in.
:crests of Ireland. The House had listened to a long discussion by
the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, of the enormities and errors of
the Catholic Association, and of other Societies, and had intro-
duced a measure upon a reliance of the details which he submitted
to the House. Now he had sat many years in that House, and
could nortinbear from the eepression of his surprise. that so un-
usual a proceeding should be retorted to, as that such a measure as
the present should be introduced, on a statement in support of
which no evidence was offtred to the House. (Hear, hear.) lie
mean no disrespect to hat Right Hon. Gentleman. Ile would as
soon rely upon Ins word as on that of any other Honourable Meun.
ber ; but he most be excused, if, on a great Parliamentary measure
like the present, he was unwilling to place implicit confidence and
reliance in him or any individual. W. by did not the Right lion.
Gentleman ;ether conic down to the House with proofs and docu-
ments to support his statement, rather than recount scenes of re-
ligious contention, the character of which was well known and
generally deplored, and rake up old stories of horror of former
petiods. Of the period of Ude, the experience of many in that
house could hear in niemory the atrocities in the North ot Ireland.
That, as well as • subsequent period of the history of Ireland,
was marked by the nightly conflagrations of cottages, and by many
horrible individual murders--when the cry of " To Hell or Con-
nate,lit was raised for destruction." It could not be denied that
illegal anti secret societies had been productive of much of the
nintry of Ireland. About two or three years ago, he presented a
petition, which contained the complaint of a grievance of a very
aggravated character. The subject of it was an attack made
on an individual by twenty or thirty persons, who were Orange.
men ; his skull was fractured, and his arm broken. The facts
were communicated to him from a quarter on which he couly rely ;
these persons were afterwards tried for the offence and acquitted.
He apprehended the Jury who acquitted them were Orangemen.
A distress warrant was subsequently issued against this individual
at the suit of these persons ; the facts of the case were of a flagrant
nature, and proved how unequally justice was adnainieteled in Ire-
land. In this assertion he was eueported by an authority of great
weight, the late Lord Chancellor of Ireland (14. Retie:Wale). In the
debate on the Insurrection Act in the House of Lords, in the year
1822, that Noble Lord said " that there were two descriptions of
law in Ireland—one For the rich, the other for the pour, and
that both were ill-administered." (Hear, hear, hear.) In that
sentiment he (Mr. S.) owned he fully concurred. A. to the senti-
ment which inculcated hatred to Millman, the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, who had put the point very forcibly to the House, could not
more fully disapprove of it than he did. Strong as that ex arcs-
!ion was, and it was far from his intention to justify it, yet it
should he remembered that it was in consequence of many and
severe injuries inflicted or, the Catholic body by those against
whom it was directed. This was at least some extenuation of it.
This distinction should be drawn between those societies which
were denominated Orange, and that for which the House was now
celled upon to legislate, that in the latter is was not stated that
secret oaths were administered, whereas in the former secret oaths
were taken which were illegal, and which if not checked and res-
trained by law, society could not exist in safety. Ile was at • loss
to account why • Bill for restraining the Orange Societies had not
been introduced at an earlier period than the Seas on before last into
Parliament, the more particularly as he had M his posses ion the
copy of &document, a letter of Lord Liverpool, disapproving ot
such a Society. It was written on the occasion of the death of a
private soldier in a remote part of this country, after whose death
some papers were leund amongst his things, front which it appar-
el he was connected with an Orange club that had been formed in
the regiment ; the papers were transmitted to the War-office, after
which they were forwarded to Lord Liverpool, who wrote a letter
to the Commanding Officer, disapproving of the club, and di-
recting that certain provisions of the:l9.h of George 111. should
Le read to the regiment, which subjected a soldier engaging in such
an association to seven years' transportation. This disapprobation of
the Noble Lord did him honour z but why was not a law to put
such societies down extended to Ireland et that period, l& P or
why was it teserved for the year 11122 to enact a law for their sup.
priesion P They were at the former period troublesome to the cotio-
try, not in a less degree than they were at the latter, but Govern-
ment did not interfere for the suppression of the Orange Society
until it became to strong and powerlul as to be troublesome to
tfienuselves. (Hear, hear.) It was not until after the disturbance
at the Dubfin Theatre and another transaction that they were inter.
fered with, and an attempt made to put then down. The Right
Honourable Secretary expects the putting down of this ASSOCiitIOI)
will restore tranquillity and happiness to betted. He thought the
same consequence would flow from the Insurrection Act, now he
thought that neither of these rimmeures was likelr to he pro-
ductive of such a result. The Right Honourable Setretary
complained of that passage of the Address, which stated that suite
persona had been transported who were innocent of crime; he
(Mr. Smith) adopted that setiment, for lie had an opportunity of
learning from • gentlegian who had • situation there, which guve
him an Declaim to know the fact (Archdeacon Scott), that of
all the convicts who were transported to New South %Vides, the
bitch were the most orderly, and the most disposed to assume
habits of peaceful industry. It was on this authority he was dim.
posed to give credit to the opinion in the Address, that many were
transported who did not deserve such a fate. (Hear.) On the mea-
sure now introduced lie would reserve himself until he had me re mi-
nutely considered it in deal. He certainly had not the sanguil e hope
of beneficial results from it which the Right lion. Secretary ent.r.
wined, nor indeed from any other measure, but thatof gra Ong to •ire
Catholics the rights which had been so long withheld from th m.
and for the recovery of which they made such naturally anxious
efforts. He would be glad to see that toleration which had
been conceded to Hanover extended to Ireland. That toleration
prevailed too in Canada and in elaryland. Persons of different
pereuasions there intermarried ; they asaociated in pursuits of com-
merce and agriculture • all the purposes of social intercourse were
observed and promoted by them ; and this was done—not to the
danger or inconvenience—but to the security and happiness of the
State: and he would defy the Right Honourable Secretary fur the
Home Department, with all his talents, or the University he repre-
sented, with all its learning, to state a single instance in the history
of mankind au which it had been proved by experience that tole's'.
hoe was an inconvenience to a station. (Cheers) This was the
only mode, in his opinion, of tranquillizing permanently ; this mea-
sure alone would defeat the machinations and mischiefs of both
patsies, and withdraw the envenomed sting which was implanted
in the heart of the society of that country. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Ile could not but feel very considerable grief and deep concern that
the leight Honourable tlentle.nan opposite, who was known as a
real friend of the Catholics, should have deemed It proper to
countenance and enforce measures the tendency of which went to
oppress that very body towards whom he was considered to enter-
tain such favourable sentiments. He certuinly hoped that, if the
Right Honourable Gentleman did mean to check thus Associatioe,
it would be done in a manner not to excite a spirit of resentment,
or a teeing of despondency that would produce' more disastrous
consequences to the peace and welfare of Ireland and also to this
country than any proceedings which the Association could pursue,
or any steps thafthey should ever contemplate or revolve on. A
few evenings ago, the Right Honourable Gentleman made comma •
nications to this House which were hi unisou with that line of
I etelicy teat was to be expected of his high talents. He had laid
before this House papers relating to the course adopted with
regard to South Aanteica for which he deserved the best thanks
of net country. lie (Mr. J. S.) felt that this subject had no relation
to the present qumtiun, but he could not retrain from giv:2l,4 the
Right Hon. Geetieman the htglosit credit, nor forbear expresmig to
him his sincerest gratitude for the manner in which he accom-
plished that great and wise ace of policy. because it was done with
a most statemmen-liko caution, anti with the matures[ consideration
to our national honour a d truest interests. When he (Mr. Smith)
reflected on this, of aeon: he felt an additional degree of mortifica-
tion at the conduct cf the Right Hon. Gentleman on the present
occasion. that, while he was thus appearieg to be of a liberal cha-
racter, in a measure &fleeting our foreign relations, he should be
demo ;Mat which would inevitably lead to the further °pot cseion of
a porno.: ui our own subjects, and the aggraltation ot those grier.
aces which a( re every flay &a-omits:Mg more and more of des-
co:.;ent I.: till among the Catholics of Ireland. If three were

'.4

any thing high in talent, and splendid in accomplishment, it was
to be found in the Right Hon. Gentleman ; and we all knew the
high attachment which he had to fame and a distinguishing renown,
an ambition that was most honourable, and which lie (Mr. J.
Smith) always rejoiced to see in a public man. It was the object
of such a feeling to seek for opportunities where its proudest aim
might be gratified. Here, then, was a fine field for the Right
1109. Gentleman to pursue his favourite object, by giving liberty
to the Catholics; and could anything add more to that fame which
he had already acquired, than by devoting his splendid talents and
commanding influence, to the permanent relief and peace of
afflicted Ireland? That moment will one day arrive to him, as
it must to all, when we shall have only to take a retrospec-
tive look at our past actions, and experience from that
survey mingled emotions of joy and regret ; at such a time there
could not, he conceived, be • sentiment more glorious than what
would arise to that Right Hon. Gentleman from dr, rceolleetion of
his having given liberty to Ireland, restored peace to that long_
distracted country, and at length meted out impartial justice to his
Catholic fellow-subjects. Notwithstanding,then' the language which
that Right Hon. Gentleman had used towards die Catholic A.so.
elation, and the measures which he appeared to be at present con.
teniplating, he (Mr. John Smith) would not abandon the hope
that that Right lion. Gentleman would still achieve this &mama
work ; that lie would yet retain those noble principlek which lie bad
hitherto espoused, that the great object of Emancipation, so ably
advocated by him at former times, would men yet be attained ; he
(Mr. Smith) would still cherish the expectation that the Right
Hon. Gentleman would lire to realize that design, that he would
rescue his country from the disgrace which the present state of
Ireland reflected upon it, and that he would have vigour and talent
enough to propose and carry to a successful issue so just and proud
a consummation, and that he alone, in spite of all opposition,
whether in the Cabinet or out of it, would have the honour of
"telex that peace and happiness to the Catholics of Ireland which
they have for centuries been doomed neither to know or to enjoy.
Hs would not trouble the House any further at preset, nor advert
to any particular measure that may be embodied in the Bill which
the Right lion. Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, might bring
in; but he should reserve himself to a fixture occasion to express
his sentiments with regard to them. He. however, begged to say,
that should he find way of the provisions of that Bill salculated to
increase the oppressions under which the Catholics of Ireland were
at present labouring, he should moat strenuously ospose them at
every stage. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. ABERCRONIBY said, that the Right Hon. Secretary
who made the motion now before the House, had expressed his
deep coecern at being obliged to bring tiniward • measure of the
nature intended to be embraced by his Bill. Now, with whatever
degree of reluctance that Right Hon. Gentleman might have acted
in this instance, he (Mr. AbercroMby) could assure him that lie
came to this discussion with the greatest possible sorrow and regret.
He never had, in the whole collide of his Parliamentary experience,
felt more reluctance at approaching any public question than he did
the present, because be lilt that we were called upon by this mea-
sure to enter upon • career the most unwise and unstatesmanlike
that could be imagined; that would tend to the aggravation of
every evil it was purpuned to remedy, and inevitably sap the very
foundation, and destroy altogether the peace of these realms. %Pith.
these feelings he should distinctly avow that he could not give his
consent to the proposition of the Right lion. Secretary. If it had
been to oppose the details of the Bill, he should then not have felt
so much anxiety upon the question : but it was against the prin-
ciple of this Bill that he contended, and which he conceived to be
fraught with the most dangerous consequences, both to this coun-
try and to Ireland. With regard to the Association he would "
candidly avow, that it' he were asked whether he felt regret at its
existence, he woad answer at once that he did. But the grounds
of his regret were not that he conceived it incapable of producing
some good to the Catholics of Ireland, but it at the same time •
brought into light a series of complaints that ought never to have
existed, and made known the grievances of the Catholic people,
such as were calculated to excite the moat serious regrets in all who
wished well to the peace of their country. The Ageociation, die
was aware, was hateful to so i.e gentlemen, because it brought to
public view these painful truths, and they would have it sup.
pressed that such !'acts might remain unknown ; but be (Mr. A ber-
cromby) desired the extinction of the Catholic Association, because •
its existence bespoke the weakness of the Government—because it
stood as a monument of our disgrace and injustice—becau e the ,
finger of scorn and derision was pointed to us by other nations,
when they looked towards Ireland, and because it fixed a stigma
upon the wisdom, the character, and the honour of England. It
was upon these principles that he regretted the existence of the I
Catholic Association, and upon which his wish was formed that it
had never beta created. But when he said thie was it an adinis-
pion of all the Rfight lion. Gentleman had raid in respect of that
Association, and of the necessity of putting it down by legislative
enactments? Certainly not; on the contrary. it was a complete
answer to that Hon. Gentleman, that evils did exist which could
not be done away by the mere suppression of this Association.
(Hear, hear.) lie knew that the Ministers might, by an Act of Par-
liament, destroy the Catholic Association' check the expression of
their opinions in an open assembly, and deprive them of that last
re stains of freedom, the right of breathing forth their complaints
ore to another; but he would ask them when they had thus de-
stroyed the Catholic Association, and had suppressed the leaders of
the Catholic bedy from giving utterance to their grievances, would
they have destroyed the spirit of that Association ? Would they
have dune away with the causes that gave it birth ? (Hear, hear.) ,
Would they have healed the animosities that existed in that ushappy
country ? Most certainly not. Ile would assert again end again,
that Emancipation and Emancipation alone was the means by which
the spirit of the Catholic Association can be done away. Unless
they granted so the people of Ireland emancipation, that spirit
would never be extinguished. Ile spoke of the spirit of the Ca-
tholic Association as the spirit of the Irish people, for such it was.
If it was denied that the Catholics were not the people of Ireland,
any more than the English Catholic were the people of England,
he would request such per-ons to recollect what was the proportion
of the Catholic population in that country, and to Consider how
much greater was that proportion than that whle.h the Catholics of
England bore. On a former occasion, it was old that the same
attempt was made to identify the Catholics of Ireland with the
people of Ireland, but it did not succeed. But lie (Mr. Aber.
cromby) would olnerve, that then the Catholics were grossly illi-
terate. They were now educated, and generally well-informed.
Give the Catlinkes of Ireland education, and knowledge, which is
popes, and then they become the Irish people. Now what would
be the ulterior effect of the measure recommended by the Right
lion. Secretazy ? It would aggravate every existing evil, and sow
inore widely the seeds of discontent, dissatisfaction, and disunion
among the'Critholic population of Ireland; while the measure he
(Mr Abercroniby) recommended was alone calculated to effect any
good purpose. Ile would say, emancipate the Catholics of Ireland,
give to them the: which in justice beings to them, for he would re-
peat, they had a right to those concessions, as they were called, that
were now woonwitielt held from them, make them your fellowseutijects
in reality,as they mein name,extinguieh thosereligioue jealousies that
now so fatally agitate them, unite the empire, and consolidate its
strength and its power :these are the measures which can insure
the peace of Ireland and the safety of the State. It was upon this
general vi w of the case that he should be disposed to oppose the
sitotipo of die Right Hon. Gentleman. But the Right Hon.
Gentleman had indulged in much vituperation against the Catholic
Association. He (Mr. Abercrombyj did not stand here to under-
take the defence of that body, nor to vindicate any of its proceed.
logs ; but he should consider it most unworthy of him, and an act
totally inconsistent with the principle; he had avowed, if, from fear
of any calumny that night be directed against him, or misrepre.
sentation given to his inotivee, he were to refrain Irani declaring his
real sentiments with regard to the conduct of that body. He hail al-
ready said that he regretted the existence of the Association, and he
had expleined the grounds of that regret, but he now would say that
he regarded that existence as the sole consequence of the policy of
this country towards Ireland. It had been urged gamiest the
Catholics, and urged too with a very considerable degree of earnest-
nee*, and with s teeling of triumph, that however anxious were
some certain few of the Catholics to procure emancipation, yet to
the Catholics at large it was very immaterial whether Mr. °Ton-
nell had a silk gems ti or not, or whether the Earl of Fingal should
or should not be eligible to be one of the twenty-eight. lii order to
give a complete answer to this taunt they have thus formed them_
selves into an Assoination, the magnitude of which now alarmed
their sarcastic opponents. Rut were the Catholics the only per-
sons who associated together ? Were there no Orangemen in
Ireland, who met and advocated principles diametrically opposed
to the Catholics, and as dea4eroue to the peace of the country ?
He (Nr. Abererumby) would say that this was a point of view
necessary to be taken, for it was their duty to tell the people of
this country what was the real truth, in mom that they might be
able to judge for theineelvis upon this great and momentous ques-
tion. But were the Orangemen all that associated in Ireland, or
all that were opposed to the Catholics of Ireland? It was well
knows that they were not. It was known that the Protestants
of that country assembled, to cherish in each qther that spint of
hatred towards the Catholics, which, ever since the time that Lord
Siiirnouth'declared Protestant Asseendancy to he the only tenure by
which he held his office, had existed in • great portion of the Pro-
testant population of that country. It was useless to disguise these
hum- Seeing them >clime thus opposed and oppressed ; seeing that
the promises made to them at the Union were all broken and for.
gotten, and that the speech of Mr. Pitt at that day hail excited
hopes only to be disappointed ; seeing that they were no nearer the
end of their exertions, nor the attainment of their object, twenty.
five year. after the making of that speech, than when it was trade,
was at at all wonderful that the Catholics should now lei de-
sirous of showing what they could theineelves do, in order
to make known known thee; complaints, enforce their de.
mends kir a restitution of their constitutional rights, Intel
exhibit also to their country the talent and knowledge with which
ail this could be done? And this they have elaiwn ; but had they
shown it in any illegal way ? It hail not beets attempted to prove
this : indeed it was well known that they had not done anything to
infringe the laws, nor to subject themselves to its denunciation.
The conclusion, then. which he (Mr. A.) came to, was, that the
Catholics, not having done anything to violate any known law, or
to involve the peace of the mastery by any single act of outrage or
Injustice; and yet it was upon this perfect knowledge of their
peaceable and unimpeachable conduct, that we were called upon
to makes law that was not to promote the quiet and prosperity of
Ireland, hat to aggravate the evils that now rage among that un-
happy people, and to increase the muse of those complaints, which
it ta the vain and impotent policy of this Government-to attempt to
silence by this measure. He abjured such a system. (Hear.)
lie abjure! it as being capable of doing incalculable niischiel, not
only to the Catholics but to the whole people of Ireland. The
Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that he did not regard the union
of the two characters of priest and politician as that which was
fitted to allay the ferment of Ireland. New lie (Mr. A bercrotaiby)
would not hesitate to say, that lie disliked the union of two such
dissitrila: characters as much as the Right Hon. tee4dtman did,