The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1825-02-16 00:00:00

•

rresethe‘esle pea wars hit is Nen. and Leaned Mend
144
tit
. gamine Ishwar
le hie dime te toss(
bid A esieekihnissildisi.
ezdtensieo )s=tbkvollearr, midis •
111 hip! be %kV* ft- dm swim,
km, will asntilene to ache wok r ...
ph,
te the an ele,seaty
enighonay, onsillyei by sop,
Mar Ile hid sethlkathisimaelf, a: illamensieriacm.
Abe Hems, mat, after all, the sepositio
In kW. "Why," said bA "hems
0111 Iry dingmatien, and yet I bate a 7bey eidendy.
t: VIM eta, some .41=opup Imps
9 , 101 IMO • 1 mfer, the dime elsk
Ste% it may at first sound in our ewe here, .
Zes in preserving tranquillity mad gesomtirg
(A laugh.) We know not what vast,benefft
penibasol by applying these antipathies in aid of friendly
aluel..A ilh.) In illustrating the advantages of a se' "'
toy on. and Learned Friend was borrowing .
donde* hen a very sage and amiable character In one i
dan's Comedies. Mrs. Malaprop, in giving advice:to her
to dm esoduct she should pursue as to her intended-husband, .
" It is always best, my dear, to begin with a little aversion.
bawl your poor dear uncle as bad as a blackameor when 1
vied his, but you see now what a good wife I made !-.
wards." So says my Hon. and Learned Friend, lou k. _
what a good understanding will be promoted in reland by u—
honest effusion of hatred (Cheers and laughter.) n order, how-
ever, to raise ; more philosophical view of this expression, he re-
sorted to a theory not perfectly new, but beautiful beyond doubt
and only wanting a foundation in truth to render it quite sone
(A laugh.) " Nothing," said he, " can be more judicious dear
call on men to be virtuous by an adjuration founded on their v!
By this conflict of vices, we establish the dominion of virtue.
sow civil war amongst the enemy. We control one vice by r
and keep both down by the struggle in which they
gaged." But, then, what is he who has only one urine?
must be in • bad way with a vengeance. (Laughter.)
only two, Indeed, he might be made into • perfect
(Continued laughter.) According to this theory, in the
mums of life, if I discharged a servant, the worst -'
on* give him would he that be bad only one fault. 31 y
~.1 Li miser Friend, if be was disposed to set consistently on
send me anotberservem whit two vices. He .
I,ll3lllCaltiyou a man who, I confess, is a thief, -
dimmikeed also. If you can make his drunkenness
thierviMelliosuyou will cure him of both his vices." (Cheers
isles.) But my Hon. and Learned Friend quoted himself as
N ,oce, desirous to be, according to Pour like anotiallS
L poginita. " Himself the great sublime he draws."
" I knew 'Dr. Johnson," lump he i " in his society I passed inanyu
Kea
hours, yet I had two disqualifications, to each of which he
bed strongly expressed his aversion. I was both • Whig obis
Serchman." But did not my Hon. and Learned Friend see, Maio
according to his new moral theory, these two objections cured each
i other ? Dr. Johnson knew that he was too much a Scotchman
to be a good Whig, and too much a Whig to be a good Scotch.
man. (Great laughter.) And thus my lion. and Learned Friend
was, by the conflict, rendered a most perfect character. I, too,
have met that venerable in in the club of which he was one of the
1 founders, and notwithstanding the sentiment quoted by my Hon.
sad Learned Friend, I do not believe he would have been persuaded
that there wee any moral beauty in adjuring men to abandon their
evil courses by the vices of their own Constitution. (Cheers.) At
least, however, I think this expression may be fairly cited as a mat-
ter of evidence to show the state of feeling that exists in Ireland. There
are animosities which ir would be dangerous to exasperate. This
expression is a proof of that part of the allegations on which the
=ent for the proposed measure rests. Is this House then, I
repued to say, that the existence of this Association can be
conducive to the improvement of the country, or on the contrary,
mot calculated to retard it ? This is a proposition, on which I hold
it to be impossible to entertain two opinions. (Cheers.) But the
Semoutable Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) expresses his surprise that
when the King's Speech declares that the kingdom is in a flourish.
Mg site, and that Ireland partakes of the general prosperity, there
is a strange inconsistency in calling for repressive laws to be ap-
plied to that part of the kingdom ! Inconsistency ! Sir, I see no
inconsistency in those parts of the King's Speech ; I see the re-
, verse. The fact that Ireland is improving in all the grea branches
of public prosperity, is established by the testimony of all who
' know any thing of the country. But does that fact necessarily pre-
vent the existence of a particular evil, calculated, it' suffered to pro-
' peed unchecked, to retard tlas progress of improvement by deterring
enterprise, by diverting capital, by destroying confidence, and by 1
Ina striking, in fact, at the very root of the public welfare, by setting
neighbour against neighbour? (Cheers.) Unless we can insure
leanquillity for the present, and confidence for the future, it is idle
110 attempt, as it were, in 3 new country—for these things are indeed
Yew to Ireland—to raise manufactures, to promote commerce, to
ease the public wealth, and to establish the prosperity of the
'pantry. My Hon. and Learned Friend knows, as we all do, that
liss tide of English prosperity was setting full on Ireland. lie
knows also, the positive obstacles which now exist, and as long as
Ibis Association continues, must continue to exist ; to stem the
course of that tide, and check, if not divert it entirely. It is not
incumbent on this House to remove these obstacles and restore
things to that natural course which tends directly to raise Ireland
In the scale of nations? (Cheers.) 1 say then, that the first ques-
tion to be considered by this House is, whether we should not put
down an Associatioo which, arrogating to itself unnecessary and
sitailawdeall-peinames wide to create and exasperate an;rnosities, and to
check the course of our national prosperity ! The answer is easy,
without introducing the word " Catholic" at all, or considering 1
the religious complexion of the Association. It is on that
vie*, and not on account of its being either Catholic or
Protestant that I wish to see it seiipressed. I look not at its reli-
gious character at all, but at its mischievous political character;
and, therefore, I call on the House to entertain the measure b
which we shall rid that unhappy country of an influence which
operates so mach to its prejudice. I do not attrieute to the
Catholic Association that it affirms itself to be the representative of
the people of Ireland. Undoubtedly it has done no such thing. If
it had so done, ho fresh legislation would have been necessary. The
existing law is clear and express on that point. not I cannot shut
my eyes to the tact that that character is attributed even in the
debates of this House. If, then, the notoriety of a fact be held a
sufficient mason to take a step in legislation, I must consider suf.
ficient for this occasion the statement we have all heard of an opi-
nion, and an opinion, I believe, perfectly just, that this Association,
whether it styles itself so or not, is the virtual Representative of
of the people of Ireland. (Cheers.) I call on the House to think
still more seriously whether such an Association with such a cha.
racter attributed to it, though not assumed, can co-exist with this
House? Is it possible, I ask, that the House of Commons,
representing the people, as it dcs s, in the sense in which we are
said to represent them, can co-exist with another Assembly, to
which is also attributed the representative character in u powerful,
as sacred, and as efficacious a manner, though not conferred upon
it by the same process by which the representative character is
conferred upon this House? If the proposition be not yet ac-
tually true, at least the statement shows to what character this
Association is directly tending: and then this ques.lon wises,
whether it be not wise to interfere, before the period has arrived
when that character is assumed which renders the co-existence im:
possible? (Cheers.) I intruded to abstain from casting imputa-
tions, and 1 hope I have refrained front applying any harsh words
to the Catholics. I bad no disposition to do so; but, if I had, the I
Information communicated by the Hon. Baronet would entirely have
disinclined me from so doing. That information makes no difference
however, as to the expediency of this measure. Because the Catholics
will obey the law, Parliament ought nut to refrain from passing it.
On the contrary, with this determination on their pert declared, it
is still the duty of Parliament to persevere. If the debate had
been kept within the range to which the King's Speech wriAld have
confined it, stripped of all topics of inflammation and exaggeration,
I should have been content to have gone to the vote on the Bill, in
the conviction that the duty of the House was clear, but now I
think it is imperative. Though the Catholic Question formed, in my
opinion, no necessary part of the debate, it is impossible now that
I should take part in the discussion, without speaking out fairly
and openly with regard to it. It wags attempted in the earlier stages
of the debate to represent the Catholic Association as me;elv in-
strumental to bring that question under the consideration orPar-
liament ; and it was asked, whether we could put down that body
without cutting off all communication Letwees the Catholics and
the House cf CoMmons ? To that question I was prepared to have
applied myself; but after the information given by the Honourable
Baronet, itwould be ungenerous to press further—
Sir F. BURDETT-1 beg to explain. I had no information
to state beyond what I had from the public papers.
'le. CANNING—Then certainly I have mistaken the Hon.
Baronet, and so have those around me. (Hear. hear, hear.) I un-
derstood him u making an authorised communication.
Sir F. BURDETT-1 founded my statement on the accounts
in the newspapers. The Right Hon. Gentleman will there find
the words I alluded to. They were used at the last Catholic
Meeting.
Mr. CANNING—I really wish the Hon. Baronet would hand
the paper over. I have not read the account to which he refer ;
the information is quite new to me. 1 uuderstood him as making
• declaration for which he had authority from the Catholic As-
sociation.
Mr. BROUGHAM—If the Right Don. Gentleman will per-
-1 mit me, I will read the werda a the petition from the Association,
which I shall present to-morrow : ' As soon as the Bill shall
have reseived the Royal Assent, your petitioners will bow to it in
submission ; but, meanwhile, they pray to be heard against it by
CounseL"
Mr. CANNING—I am sure the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
(Mr. Brougham) must see that this is quite a different thing. I
was arguing in the sincere belief that the Hon. Baronet had received
authority to make a communication to the House, but now it ap-
pears that the submissive intention is coupled with some conditions
(" No, no," from the opposite side.) Without arguing that pointi
now, whether the Association may be or not prepared to submt
unconditionally, it appears to me absolutely necessary, in either
case, that Parliament should go on.
Mr. BROUGHAM—'they offer unconditional submission to the
law, but reserve to themselves (Cries of " Order, order.") Why
really this is an extraordinary call of Order. I wish to expedite
the business of the House by saving the Right Hon. Gentleman
perhaps a good deal of unnecessary argument. The Association
do not pretend to withhold their unconditional submission to the
law, when it has, by the Royal authority, become law, but they
reserve to themselves, in the progress of the meuure through
eohPar-
liament,
the right which belongs to all the King's subjects, to op-
pose it lnc 1 and constitutional way, by petitioning this House.
Mr. CAN ING—Then I understand you that they do not
make their final submission conditional ?
Mr. BROUGHAM—Certainly not. •

. the
ac claims,_ shahs
would go to MAIM theieetoblishineet. "tbe fifth of that settee of
resolutions on which the act of Haim between Brest Britain and
Ireland was founded, runs in theta yzada:—" On the same pur-
pose (that is, on the Westing of the Unten) the Church of that part
of Great Britain called England, and the (;antreli of Ireland, shall
be united in one Church, retaining to the Church of Ireland all her
rights, privileges, and jurisdictions, and that the continuance and
preservation for ever of the said Church shill be deemed and taken
to be an essential and fundamental poet g the Union." That is I
one of the articles 611 which the Union iota:mica. and in reference
to that article did Dlr. Grattan introduce! his Bill ; and though I
have not been able to lay my hands on my Right lion. Friend's
Bill, I believe the preamble was copied in which the matter is re-
cited in substance as follows r—'• Mrhereas the Protoglant Este-
blished Church of England and Ireland are establlehyd Ohne-
nentlyand inviolably, and whereas its tends to promote the interests
of the State, and strengthen the free constitution of this realm, of,
. which these Churches are an essential Fart," &c. Up to the period
at which these Bills were discussed, the belief of the people of
the people of England was, that this article was a fundamentel
part of that arrangement. but within these two years they have
seen certainly no decision in this House of a contrary nature, but
they have seen questions mooted sad dixislons take place, that have
caused great alarm, and have resuscitated an Opposition almost
extinct. (Cheers.) On the 4:h of March, 1823, the following
Resolutions were moved in this llou'e :
" Resolved, That the property of the Church of Ireland, at pre.
sent in possession of the Bishops, the Deans, and Chapters of Ire-
land, is public property, under the control and at the disposal of
the Legislature, for the support of religion, and fur such other per-
awes as Parliament in its wisdom may deem beneficial to the coin.
munity, due attention being paid to die rights of every person now
enjoying any part of that property.
" That it is expedient to inqui:z whether thc present Church
Establishment of Ireland be not inure than commensurate to the
services to be performed, both as regards the number of persons
employed, and the incomes they receive; and if so, whether a re.
eduction of the same shall not take place, with due regard to exist-
ing interests.
That the peace and best interests of Ireland would he promoted
b 7 a commutat;on of tithes, on such principles as should be ecn-
sidered just and equitable towards the present possessor, whetberlar
or clerical."
On the first of these resolutions the division was 63 in favour of the
resolution, and 62 against it. The division on 'the second
occasion was 153 to 72. In saying that the effect of these
resolutions was highly injurious to the Catholic Question, I state
that only which I know ; for the discussion of them was regarded
by the people of this country as a disposition to departure front those
conditions which Mr. Grattan (and I concurred with him entirely
in the opinion) looked upon as a necessary preliminary to this
favourable reception of the measure. Unquestionably, the resolu-
tions raised a degree of suspicion ar.d of jealous distrust, if not
in the minds of those who were ti.e most anxious supporters
and advocates of the question, at least they did so in those who
were either not dislaclined to support it, oc who had brought
their minds to that temper in which they were not prepared to
oppose it. Such was the estimate which I had formed of the feel-
ings of the people of England, and which! observed to have been
created by the discussions to which I have adverted. Nor did I
do so alone ; the same consequence from these reeol'ations has been
observed by many others as well as myself. The ieople of Eng-
land feel that the Church Establishment of England and of Ire-
land are one—one by compact, and one by law ; and accordingly
whenever .Ir. Grattan brought forward this question, either con.
suiting the feelings, or, as some might suppose,sactificing to the
prejudices of the people of England, he so framed the basis of the
Bill which he introduced, on the acknowledgment of the identity,
the irrevocability, and the permanency of the Church Establish.
meat of the two countries. (Hear, hear.) In the condition, as an
essential one, I sincerely concur, whilst 1 support with other Hou.
Members, differing Only in degree from sonic of them, the genera
measure of emancipation. Of one thing I am most anxious to assure
those who may hereafter introduce or support a Bill on that subject,
that unless the same regard for the inviolability and permanency of the
Protestant Establishment be not manifested, it will—and must fail ;
the observance of this sacred principle under any circumstances is ne„
misery to its salvation. There may be many who might thin,i, mid
consistently too, with their support of the measure, that it were better
that Parliament should be pledged to it—better to leave teat prin.
ciple out of vie*; but those who entertained such opinions would
do better to settle them with the people than to evince too great an
anxiety for the discussion of them in Parliament. The mover and
supporter of this Bill, who are also the supporters of these resolu-
tions, must make their election ; the option was eefore thetn--either
they must give up these resolutions, or, by renewing and pressing
them, they must be satisfied to lose the Catholic Question. (Hear.)
On those grounds I stated the opinion to the House relative to the
situation to which I conceived the question Stood, to be regarded
by the people of this country. I am not thereby expressing
myself in any way as unfriendly to it (lieu, from Mr. Ilunie),
but I am unfriendly to the *imitation of the Church of Ireland
(cheers) ; though a Catholic in the
and
sense of the word, as
desirous of universally extending and communicating the blessings
of the constitution to all classzs of subjects, it is not from any
regard to the religion of the Konian Catholics ; it is not from a
tolerance of all the absurdities of that religion, nor is it from a want
-of due regard or attachment to the Protestant Church, or from or of
desire, by every possible means, to serve its interests permanently;
but because I am convinced that the measure is a safe and a politic
one; and that what is asked may be granted without injury to the
Protestant, with service to the Cetholic, and to the mutual advan-
tage and happiness of both. I have now stated to the House the
reasons that induced me to form the opinion that the question had
retrograded; and I do not think I took up the opinion lightly.
And I will further Add, that if the Catholic Association be permit-
ted to exist—if, after the language that has been theta spoken, and
after the intimidation it has held act, it continues the organ of con-
veying to the people of England such language and intimidation as
have recently marked its proceedings, it will be hopeless to try the
Catholic question. In saying this, I am disposed to regard
the informaion which has been communicated to the House this
evening, and the detention (iffaithfully fulfilled) of the Catho-
lics, to respectfully obey the law, as a circumstance most favourable
and auspicious to their cause. Although I believe a retrogression has
taken place, yet I doe.ot believe that retrogression to be irrecoverable.
By this manifestation of duty on the part of the Catholics, one
great obstacle has been removed, and their friends may indulge in
belles hopes for the success of their cause than before. It had been
*tempted to connect the Catholic Association with the Rowan Ca-
tholic population of the country. 1 shall not now delay to discriminate
the many and obvious points in which a difference exists, and of
the unfairness it argument of endeavouring to identify them; but
I am anxious to advert to an argument which had been used on
this side of the House, and which has been, I think, mistaken on
the other. The argument had ban understood, on the opposite
side, as offered with a view of showing what little interest the
humbler classes of society took in du decision of this question. As
I understood, it was offered to point out the comparatively inferior
interest which the lower climes would have in a measure of this
kind to those of a higher order ; for my part there is no position
which I seized on with more eagerness, and endeavoured to esta-
blish, than that whatever concerned the higher classes of society,
concerned the humbler also, and that all members of a society
tea bound together by sympathies, however distant or innumer-
lble may be the hake of the dale by which they were united.
(Hear, hear, hear.) The argument put forward from this aide of the
House did not tend to controvert that position': it only went to
show what was really the fact, that all the interest or advantage
that could be communicated to persons in the lower ranks of subor-
dination, they were already in possession of, while thou In higher
stalks could only be benefited by the concession of what remained
be be granted. In doing this, in my opinion, the Legislature pro-
ceeded by mistake—they gave (to take the extremes of each grade)
every thing to the peasant that he could hope to get, and withheld
every thing from the Peer which he was ambitious to possess ; this
was a false view, an erroneous line of policy to adopt. On the p-
metal question of the Roman Catholics, my opinion is, u it has
always been, strongly in favour of it ; not that I believe until that
measure be accomplished no good can be done for Ireland—for
much good has been done, and more is in immediate prospect;
but this I believe, that the achievement of that measure is requi.
site and essential to Ireland ; it is the crown to be placed on the
consummation of the work, without which it cannot be coin.

were removed,
...et ceased whicff had induced
me to ferrets from the mention of this question. I *jutted a
perpetual Regency in the same light as the commencement of •
new aeimt. About this time Lord Vi ellealev quitted office t the Mi-
nistry were then, as they were before, divided on the questiofthes to
its merits ; but they were United in the determination to relief the
consideration of it. Knowing this, I was determined to force it on,
as the obstacle which hitherto had Inatteed me to abstain
bringing it forward, had, as I have already stated, ceased to
vent nie. Accordingly, I gave notice of a motion on the
The other remarkable event of that year was the lamented if
Mr. Perceral, which took place between the time of my givkalvetr.
ties of the motion and the time of its diseustion. Shortly cofe.
quent to that event, an offer was made to me to take office ; to that
offer I replied by inquiring if it was the intention of Administra.
tion to persevere in the same opposition to the consideration of the
Catholic Claims which had hitherto been a bond of agreement
amongst them? I received in return a communication that it was;
to which my answer was a refusal of office. (Loud cheers.) iFhat
right; I now ask, had the Hon. Baronet to throw out the insinua-
tions which he did against the course I pursued on that occasion, or
to arraign the integrity of my conduct? It is not fair to try
tile part I have acted by the vulgar test of the consideration—in
or out of office. Had I not then a temptation to take office ? I
had been th: defender and supporter of the Spanish war in Par.
liamont—that war which afterwards led to such brilliant results.
I had borne the loom of all the charges and accusations which
had beep brought against it ; and I was about to see ethers enjoy-
ing the credit of a task in the labours and difficulties of which I
had borne a principal 'share. Was',mot this a temptation to take
office ? Was not this en occasion when the spirit of an English
gentleman would naturally prompt him to desire to be so situated
that he might enjoy the hotioarable gratification of reaping the
harvest which he himself had sown,' and the promising growth of
which he had watched over with the most intense and anxious in-
terest? (Cheers.) 'l'lle temptation was great ; the inducement
was of no mean or ordinary kind; but, notwithstanding the great.
ness of the temptaeion, when the offer was made ti me, fsi ones
declined it. (Cheers.) The next step was, I went to Lord
Liverpool t.) propose a joint Administration. This proves that
an Administrat!tm composed of men of adverse opinions might
b; of benefit' GI the country. I was not theb peektrig to come
into an Administration, but to form one. Tina Adeotnistratioft
differed on the 'Catholic question, but agreed' in every other
particular. plat am I now to be reproached a; havinz joined
in an Administration with colleagues, agreeing in all points
except one ? I thought then, and do now, that it was the
best Administration that could be formed for the country.--
This might be accounted an absurd opinion ; but it is my
opinion and I disdain to answer the charge-of want of inte-
grity. It may be from want of wisdom, but it was formed on
deliberate consideration. I endeavoured then to form an Adminis-
tration on the same grounds on which the present one stood, and of
whose Cabinet I am a manger. 1 am still, Sir, in the year 1812,
and I need not remind the House that the rest of the negotiazioa
failed, bat on other grounds than this of the Catholic question. A
niaq disingenuous interpretation hotelmen put upon my refusal tb
take (Ace at that time. It has beented SNP *-wirti.al refusal tre
come into office without the Catholic question wee advocated. If I
refused on the Ist of May, because they would not yield the point
of the Catholic question, could I mean to reject any proposals of
not being in at kit ? At the time 1 have alluded to, my motion
was brought forward, and the effect of it was, to pledge the House
to take into consideration the Catholic claims, with a view to an
adjusurfetit. In bringing forward that motion, I stated my ob-
ject to be the consideration of the measure by Parliamentary com-
pulsion, in order to do away with the obstacle which the Govern-
ment had raised. The bond which subsisted in Perceval's time was
renewed ; but instead of being united against the Catholic ques-
tion as then, they were merely bound not to influence the Govern-
ment as individuals ; and Mr. ()rattan and myself congratulated
each other on the breaking down of the opinion. When my motion
was brought forward, Lord Castlereagh seconded it, and it was
carried by a clear majority of 1211. Al the isame period the motion
was brought forward in the House of Lords by Lord Wellesley ;
there it was lost, for there were 126 against it, and 125 for it, so
tl.at it Was only lost by a minority of I. That was a time when
the Catholicsupported
question was by majorities such as have not
been seen since, but which I should like to see again. From
that time, via. 1612, the Cabinet has stood on the same
basis, and it was at 'the time considered as a beneficial chimp, but
which was now so much cried dean. This measure has been pur-
sued by every successive Minister for the last twenty. five years ;
and because I will not beat all the responsttility, I am to have im-
putations and suspicions cast upon my integrity, to clear which I
have offered the statement which I have made. I am. however,
perfectly aware that I am personally obnoxious to several indi-
viduals on the other side of the house, because I have not always
I unsuccessfully opposed them. It has been uniforinly my determi-
nation `to press, urge, and sustain the Ccholie question ; and I
have done it, not for the sake of the Catholics themselves, but for the
.sake of the prosperity of the empire at large, and from a general corn-
Whensive benevolence temente the whole of the population. (H ear.)
ith regard to what it may please Parliament to grant, It is a mat.
ter whkeh the recipients must leave to us ; we are not to be dictated
to what we shall grant, and what we shall not--Parliament will
give as much as it pleases. (flew.) I have acted upon this doc-
trine both in and out of office. I mate this that it may not be
'opposed that I avoid communication, because it might be sup-
posed to be inconvenient. 'I hare always disclaimed the commu-
bltation, for I have observed sufficient to be aware that those who
ind themselves as their servants, had a hard service of it. A si-
milar feeling has always existed, and I am determined to act ac.
cording to my own judgment, and not according to their opinions.
Sir, 1 left off' with the conclusion of 1812 ; bet I feel, Sir, how
malty apologies are necessary to--(Continued Cheering.) There is
not to human nature an inexhaustible fund of patience, and there
Ili no one, however patient, but'what constant attacks would rouse
to his own justifidation. This is the first I have ever made, and it
Shall be the last. (Hear, hear.) But being the last, it shall be
complete. I will now, Sir, proceed. In 1812 I would have given
, ten years of my existence to have been tiro in office ; not that I
cored for office itself, but on account of the then state of the coun-
try. Yet, notwithstanding my ardent desire, I then refused office
ted account of the Catholic question. From my earliest youth I
bad one great object of ambition beyond every thing—it war a de-
sire to represent the University in which I was brought up. When
I first entered into the political world, and took the decided part
In favour of the Catholic question which I did, I was fairly warned
' that I forfeited all chance of success in my election. (Hear,
hear.) It was the greatest of all the disappointments I have ex-
, paaienced in my life (and I have experienced not a few)-1 say,
this waa the greatest ; it destroyed all the hopes I had nourished
for years; but I remembered the pledges 1 had made, and I dis-
dained to forsake them. To no one have I, from that time to this,
ever revealed the sacrifice I made. (Hear' hear.) I rejoice in the
election that was made in consequence of my giving up the fair
chance I possessed ; I rejoice in it, and I hope that the two Ho-
nourable Members may long do honour to each other and the Uni-
versity they represent ; but I now tell them, as I tell the House,
for the first time, of the disappointment I felt. It is a little too
much, after these sacrifices, to be told I am looking to personal
objects ; it is hard to be taunted and twitted for having joined an
Administration that will not immediately give in to the Catholic
question. I pray you condemn my judkment, but acquit my
honour. (Cheers) I believe that there is in this country a great
inert mass of opposition to the Catholic question—this feeling must
be gradually worn away. I think nothing can fortify the resist.
ance to the Catholics so much as the apprehension, on the part of
the people, than the idea of a government which should be united
to carry the question. If a Cabinet is ever ffintroll stpusisly for the
purpose of carrying the question, let my prophecy be remembered,
I say it must fail. It is my sincere belief, that if the Catholic
question is to be carried st all, it is to he carried by discussion in
this House, for it is only discussion that it wants ; and by repeat.
edly bringing the question forward, it would appear to Govern-
ment as if the Ministers were merely obeying the commands of
Parliament. This is the safest and best method of proceeding,
because public discussion was the actual question. I take it to be
no mean proof, that the Cabinet is as good as it can be in this
country, that no Cabinet has been formed for twenty-five years
which could yet agree upon the principle. It has been stated that
because I may have the power to carry this measure. and as some
Honourable Gentlemen think it possible for me to do so, whether
it be by resigning office and taking part in the question as a pri.

.e a he
consequence's _ --. 11'14 .I‘
amidst cheerilig from all aide; of the (louse.) '
fir. BROUGHAM troniediatelY rose, but hors the great noise
the bar, see eral minutes elapsed beiene he cadet proceed. He
red the House, that in rising at the close of that long-pro-
tracted dehates.-protracted indeed, but 'fidt 'longer than in pro.
don to the importance—the vital importattro--of the question
irisu
them—he, in rithig, to Ming up the close of the debate,
•
pardon e
if possible, to nprruw the compass of his oteser's:.
: • . . 7r);,?settoiwnlif. etogelLeolremPlifincdthwe 'also iiinlrouler7. the
e they must already have undergone during the dis-
lie was also driven to 'Oh it, as he himself had been
elsewhere, and was not/ consblerably 'indisposed. by
fatihiie. He would therefore, wiihoot more ado, enter on the
subject, and would again entreat patiently to be beard, while Its
ensue to what he felt to be the real question, and grappled
'with the main body, casting. aside every thing not inchoately
Vssinneetad with it, and snipping h of :di' extraneous matter, he
would not enter into the larger field of Carbolic grievances, as
his predecessors in the debate had done. Indeed be should
include In this charge wine of his own Hon. Friends : in justice ha
could not acquit them, while he charged others. He would alio
avoid all personal topics: he thanked Obd: lie bad nu °eel' ion to
buroduce diens Ile was never charged with, nor indeed could he
be charged With, inconsistency, and least of all on Irish affairs:: he
utter could be called to stand on his trial fur such a thing. He
would not therefore have to follow the Right lion. Gentleman
opposite through all the parts of his speech-a speech which he wag
far from blaming, and'fruno which he could not withhold his Want
ration, without mentioning what was (hal, npression it produced. So
far it was intended to be a personal rindkation. lie sitip.rned, how-
ever, that it was exceedingly different from what the Right Hon:
Gentleman's friends felt and would wish others to foil. Agraih he
repeated he did not blame him for the attempt : it was uue to himself
and to the House to made it. Ti.e oliServatibns which he I lir. B.)
would make must appear compatatifely uninterestMg. Speaking
on general subjects has this always unpleasant consequence,
contrasted with any thing personal; the litter iohassts mere, sad
mush less jades the attention. He would. lioiveier, confinehinil
self to the measure already so ably discussed, and to which ensi,
vast powers of intellect had been brought, but of which somewhat
yet remains to be said. He would at once declare himself the de.
fender of the Catholic Association ; he wsa the adv:;::ate Tin theft
meeting, consulting, remonstrating, and demanding. (Cheers.
This was hie solemn opinion ; he could not jobjrotto their vatitien-
: Mg, if they did so respectfully ; he could not Nett to their ration:
strafing, provided that they did it calmly ; lie felt thitt tint mor4
high their post, the more proud and commanding their Vernearti
one, the mere would they be respected. (Cries of " Hear; hater."
Tins was the more likely, as the grovelling, self-convicted, self'.
mistrusting prayer, never yet succeeded. ((Loud cha4s.) It won't,.
be seen that be had not, to use a phrase often heard It? that !Incite -I
blinked the measure. The Right ilonourable 'Gentleman who lass
spoke talked much of his aiming to the wit.ds that feeling an
passing popularity, ei; 1 following the dict..tes of' his ccesciene
he (Mr. Brougham) was just is ready to ghee ft ta the winels4=
he would do soon the morrow of that night; if *pit duiy to inthselP4
and the benefit of his country demanded it ; but he IMP'. 4.
took higher ground—he had proclaimed himself the champion
the Associauun, and he coup' hot refrain front hie duty wit&
saw his client persecuted—(Clieena)—when he saw him 'a:tack
and sought to be put down by the force of jaw. (Ilear;ji -ar.) Th
fioneuarble and Learned (lantern= then proceeded to reply t
the charges made against the Association t it had been there
against them by the Honourable Aleniber for Here(' elshire—ttia
it was calculated to foment discontent. His Honourable Prim
said Croy were rot a see '. :id a, but t .at the lire issuinethrotig
it'would turn downwards, and iii the end destroy the Goveinniend
The principal charge against them was the interference olds the
con= of justice; and lie would proceed to see how their con-
dest justified tit, charge. There were two prenroutiena cent
ducted by thero, and from the nv.nner of their proceeding in Omit
he could not but contend that they were judicions'y conducted-44
was said that they did not alloi justice to take its conae, hut thi4
they brought the pro& of their purse, the parti-lily of their col,
lectors ant aintriblitors, again t the accused, and that he had thrtheh
to contend with all the disadvantage of having their vote promul.
gated to the world. (Hear, h. ar.) But how did these nrosecutier.s
end ? In the easy and Jonah= ory acquittal of the accused. (cheers)
But, said his lion. Fr end (Mr. (1. Lamb) the result might have
been otherwise. Suth was the subtlety to which he had recourse ;
to it he (Mr. Brougham) would limply answer, if the results were
different, his opinion ti ight be different also,—(a laugh)--and these
two prosecutions, th t ended so safely and so advantageously to
the accused, were the only charges that could be called from the
storehouse of the Irish oth: e ; and these were not fairly OR truly
stated. He did not mean to impute mice:present:Con to the Rig, I
lion. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn); the mistake Wu owing to thi
•advisers of these facts, to whom he lent a res.ly and perhaps a
willing ear. (A laugh.) yet on this nth-statement of facts the
House was called to legislate. Even the sham form of laying
papers on the table was dispensed with, nor was even the odious
green hag brought down. (Cheers.) And j-et on such grour,ii
were they called on to pass a law to destroy die liberty of the Ina!)
people. It had been said that 4:.7 magistrates unanimously ac-
quitted the soldier tried before than, and thattbey as unaniumual
declared there was no foandatiOn for the ;barge against him. The
House were not told that the magistrates were consulting for two
hours and it half on the subject, and that a lire minority refused
to agree in saying there was no foundation 'for the annisatton ; asd
the reason for their su doing was, Met a alines% had steed
on the trial what he hal never mentioned up to that tinic.-L
The other caw was that of the murder of Llatlyhay, and one
advantage resulting from the adjournment or the debate was,
that it gave him the opportunity of seeing and converser.`
with the leading Counsel in that prosroution. And here again he
would show the falsehood of the statement issuing from the trait
Castle. It was said that ell doubt of the innocence of the prisoners
was at once removed, and that it was evident there was not the
slightest shadow of undo in the charge. But even if it were so,
the case proved nothing. They went on to say, that there was the
grossest discrepancy In the evidence—that the witnesses contra.
dieted themselves—that it clesr!'e appeavd, from the evidence of
two respectable surgeons, there was no fracture—and, in tine, that
all the facts were perverted. But lie (Mr. Brougham) contended,
that the men were not put on
suspicion. kg was shown at the trial that the two vileness
the moment the deceased received the death-blow; tan at anal seized
a man standing by, that they took him into coatody, and after
keeping him for twenty-four hours conhned, matte no charge
against him ultimately. And, further; that they returned to the
dead man, while lying on the pavernart,:and officiously offered him
bread and wine, and this while he was as dead as a scoot.
anal at the trial a witness was produced, who had never Wooed a
syllable before, either to the Coroner or to the Cirand Jury, of whit
he then swore Wrote the Court--namely, that he had seen =Wit"
person altogether unknown to him, and whom ha had never tell
that moment seen, with a weapon, and who had indicted the deadly
blow. Now, who was this witness? 11'lay, the *how w; a the
prisoner's own servant. lie was Liked, on his cro• s examine:lin.
Did you ever say this before to any one :—No. 1)11 you ever tell
it to the C‘riner or to the (band Jury ?—'Sch: (Hear, hear-) He
never made this fact known. Said he to himself, I care not fur
Coroners, I ease not for Grand Juries, nor for witnesses; 1 shall
reserve myself for a Petty Jury, where I shall be -ssrtain
of procuring an acquittal of the prisoner, and of saving the
real murderer t so. This witness was .uked Why, then:
question to be put. (Hear, hear.) Yes, the Judge refused the
question to be put ! lie would repeat the question—" Why 41,4
aiNfolLyoutrmia.k.rn:w(TagihthedisJiufraid.geltimwddtlioluuntyriocu3dwtharefhetucileulige° tvorcsdriumn:aedthrisetosaitliboft:f.tiritt
-101 l o the ir -
have desirel—it must have led to a ROOM try Rqu .. f
eoner? Why turn did you not before this late pei'.oil. after the
sworn,pyoriunnoert
to it
fodiete
btweeo-, to-clay
may
nt
be:al:ed. the
e Coroner
naecodesarrlie rily
dirdhoan,te
tell
, iaetthrishyrnoui
tyhors
roes
have
tenno muttaw
fact, which would hive acquitted the mutant at mice ? The Judge
would not allow this question to be put. He (Mr. 11.) spoke this
In the ficartss of men, who, by their learning, their profession. and
their experience, had artivedat the knowledge of what was the props"
counte for a Ju lire to have taken** such an estsainn, he vivant
the Gentlemen of the English Bar and he would leave it to any
one of them, it he Goo* to the of that Judge se
that occasion. The low si fledge had oot b
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alert. CAsaiNholtigfrprotriferill. wet pga+ess--3 I atildd aittffitze icilateemoi.li was, 4Hetairt,alahrerrylarlzewta
by
the
on'
waribut..iai: Ttattssauldbitialliarliatity,ooktfegitlaviextaigi,..g litici.o4, di., itiv
. 1 . 1
it rol istell fort on the oPletehtl ra' AP km tisei he, furl gem into the Cabinet "Fa the and d' thqull
the NNW, arAbdAlintpiiiKt d aim 111440c4 is in ed. I allude to the 111* Maw sborld not. lam at liberty to quit Office If 'l' please, Mth
..,
dble of Me of the eseleletee , Coyhplic , - *not a et the oft dereles
parts the quaotion as a priyate individual ; Ind I mai,e_lra.fki
1 ;
der and de- empeading, hut a meth gar paeshig. * Measure. Cs/belle rent, friot_iii or Nothrgh4 leas, mow- the question even in office ; but
, Whether I sti,e.emeT.
tby sepias. ear the craw views im.Weithe Figoo lbw, 40/Sodoo, :Tijle of twenty ilia Needing. It b• ,
face
-or whether I stud/ t will ream eto tsar own _._._ _.4:
admiration. Stet ishaidab ~wL I leM -,lll_
_. imet be lee At that a hedy SPaeld Cabinet -has been fee and I will not attend to the taunts of HoDour (tenthdoft 't-
ied to fancy tejlec • Motif fang 41 • else tOte.Wee MOll- ms to the meant. There has not Meth eldeellti=ll% is my view of the stele of the country mist say, Ido not titbit tlte
don was no doses °fade- asteei.
at•
, so It were, beside. the which any Cabinet existed In this otelifflotha- petted yet arrived for this attempt. An Iftm. ncntlernan.lak
example, I POreasatif lissMillY.• 1,1; o, mare limited I_4fm, as jeer. It was a characterhtic of the emptied we to mite this into consideration without tbe least km ;
dandy. (A con _ the Hathelie gisiestegy 1 tank Lice fart of des Ac. and his friends around him supporsthe Nsedidellet of and he was ploopetlito ask yehe,thcr, I did not look' to Popularity, an(
tpide
• one anti. Mamie* the depositerYeg-tdeMPHMell et UM Catholics, La them, composed of diecordant ele more than the Westin prade• of the pasaingsmounut e I &Meer,
expression, the most deal thing that ma befibilleie theffm. )bits the inflonsa- sure. In Mr. Pitt's Adminiettodeli that Ido feel a desire of eptitob:.tion, for 1 think that the man who 4
e, may have don I have new received renders it &Odle to proceed in there were discordant opinions in the is insensible to the prgiani of his lE4lOd-cinema, is untit to All
mtirg kind. this line. If they tender so nag beniedge, lam not de- general understanding to resist this tneetirma r tedelertii tii4trilitn4a furs; couyt:it,riy.nelwoudldo isnoitiabcilrit anb odlrtieorn fori feetaor
wnehts may moos
.to. mese twits that Ilan the or acrimony.it and
ausg never formed put of any
_agre_mn•mt i
riendly feel. my opinion the mama of the 1 mainmember. (Hear, bear.) 11, Lord tdPlP' Illobklbstion &roe the welfare id ge iiirt'ry .Plf an Ifo jumble Illem4 who
iikailaW
i sufficiency operating cense for that alienation of liqt . Mind of England which fpllowed, from an offalade MO& to had made hinthelf oonapicume on the first night of tbe Seaway by ' •
t a favourite front the Catholic quostioo, width theei* sew or the snow I prevail, although disc cadent opinitthlf Ithee Mil by the his milmutt of the A4SOClatiell, if he thins he is pursuing thermal' "•4
to of Sheri- stated it to be my. eon/ ant belief had Oath place. (hm, hear.) memlers of the Cabinet, yet there wore so to popularity, he may • Mit I tell him, I think thct, byany path, I gqi I
nem
her niece as When I say that doitiCathelic question her ed in the fa- resist the consideration of the question, whibeelell
,band, mys, your of the people of Ensialisl, I state a belie I egteeteai with his speculative diffevence of opinion. In ISIS —._..—„. E4peeto credite quar;u zed peologiptift
-H i
.
aversion. I pi; but Maltase at the state in which that q on stands, I see Mr. Fox came into °Kai. Of that Cabbiet twir selere In deems aqurgat qqo terbin9 torquest haven+.
.I,,id
then I mar. none in comeabeg it. 1 think it better to state my opinion member' who had been always prominent ned'meeket atialmote. I, Sie, know 'be dislike of. the *people of Englandao innovation, ."'
e him after. frankly happy laded If it thoidd lie found to Ise erroneous. lity with which they opposed tfiemseleat to this mmettee--the one; and I wish to convince them that
.einaiitipAting the Vatholics la
i know not (11ther;:beer.) Otte memo& of to/ opinion I have In the Lord Sidmouth, and the other a Noble hoed taken ft mat of not innut soon. I, Sit, was never the advocate Whim...mien, •
land by this jay=ar Friend aft, Wierestr, whof
iltconcludederst justice, a place from which,
b! IstriatiCisalatimet if•
i.ei=
«.::
abut fuel thtost therm:tar
01,dianApt Ifie? yol.lia:vbritatfieta:!.4thett,ceutayo,.
1 .
ssmidoern,hte°7.: time, ha opoieg4ll4 etete44ll.4.lla;lclesig He then
toblifictirl4,maile„orwhich for agprearinailede gienyeeartchly(irnecaer.lB26 MOM mitr ' , *lees b. lies werentte J.spring of ten:rola:l causes i Ilmi new itlutt theism
.. Fond 'doubt, so many yew be alently supported ta his vote, but at the ject of charge against me. What had • • me ahem, it potary tenses Have erased, feel that th4k cenav;u,enees ought to
quite sound. same time by tbetiesedegactlhuh mob Mu* 'Viler' 40 select seems, is not to be justified In me. The
.- . %matter came also. list, hi,, lostreld Iliadic tour Mcarty ft with puiti, are awl
roue than to that topic which le hares .m tell= this_ House and _ the of accusation was to
__ be kept beck Is bad
Iworldev circumspection. 1 could avoid all
_ "pavane? Of hiyttc 0.- lige.
i their vices. country. He__tbneetheie ossuary to Ids decimation in be- prevailed evetemee lffill, and not did at comsat to csrry_lt by pi meal; and though as one
virtuo. We half of: the Cid by mattes also, do. 4. was ',staunch ad. but even ahem this difference of tools time ita *Avows' feu othermee, f thine they Om:1d hove been S
by mother, hermit, by bath education and convict:am, to the church of did not naturally present itself, 111116 emetell, cis. cured of that fob, 'by their experience of what becomed in 8118;
is, ere en- Dogland. gime, Mae.) The Limped Milieu (Dr. Lethingeno) initiated. I regret to be obligedth MOP a of this Moe. then every thing mold be had for the Citbolici except parlisreent.
voice? He Mee •it essential to intredece kis observations with the I state that only which is matter of Melee? ; and Mien a gonethl and as that 4144 not also twit:Med, tbe whole Ire* toomo up—:
If he had tome of faith t and be expressed himself accusation of this
.kind has been made, the only Intro math Is thrown op in a pet. I did eat object to it attic time: ~!r, front
t character. More the be said he was cses the Mash of by a detail of particular acts. The obstacle is whidel havelethare that moment the Catholic question began to lobe gerund.
the ordinary kreast le, meld in the affections OE,
tr.
•'/Se ilk pinere et Caro
.h6bll,Fits !rferii ;"
•i 1014
character I The were held by . the late Ate both these occasions I resisted to move Me thief the and, Su. if there etes•anything wearing to-iejure and to rna- it, it
My Hon. Grattan. . Wiry MI lie prawn . in &nem 4 Aibject. e had to determine to abstain firm/ AIM* oh =ii die was that Csabolie.Alsociatiomwhicb we aza tow 'smiting to put
tently on his the Catholos, the AM eglimite, in setthig ill the_pteamble obstacle remained,—a lesson which was taught*, me by Mr. Pitt, down, that 4e may give the Calbolics rah. play.. Ilut, Sir, I a the 4
He would the cemagere_ - 'hat the Protestant and to which I strictly adhered.' In 1819, Me. Port al was in Catholic Association remove itself, luta i, ;yid_ center doelde ‘ivan.
but he is a chime of leas and inviolably office : two things happened in this year, which determined ludas to taps on the Catholics; and thus, liem a tocjell iMught wit% evil,
act on his .cried • and MAW Mehe . t, lbs 41.4.184i0n tig the the course I teas to take—the Regencrrestrictioris Imre removed, beneficial consequences will arise.. I.Tl4*Right Hon. Gentleman
1 :
(Cheers and Catholic claims theMite.llo yr!, • yto otogro the Church, and with their removal the obstacle had ceased which bad induced. _ sat_ down amidst cheering from all side* of thy f iollSe.] .
. . . •