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MP

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assertion be eo•'ld look boldly and fairly, and if any
Member wished to controvert him. he wished it to be
stated distinctly. At one time, when he voted for a
Commission of this kind, he recollected that much
lamented Gentleman (Mr. Burke) contended against
it, and was supported by some Hon. Gentle-aen
opposite him, who, in that discussion moved that
Magna Charm should be read, to sheer that by the
Constitution of England no man could he compelled
to criminate himself. If a servant of the publics
when called upon for explanation, stood mute, he
readily admitted that he should be trusted no lon-
ger ; but he must at the same time say, that cir-
cumstances may afterwarus arise to justify him in
doing so.
Mr. BANKES said, that if there was any de.
fed in the Ad, he should be ready to eorret it in
the progress of the Bill, so AS that the Commis-
sioners should find nothing to obstrud their pro-
gress. He was aware that by the amendment pro-
posed, and in which he should concur, very extra-
ordinary powers would be given to the Commis-
sioners ; but, he should be very sorry if this was to
be made a preced •nt for any future Commissions.
After a few observations from Mr. 'tire i Tla wan,
and the Cis A NCZI.. LOX of the Excerroura, the ori-
ginal motion was carried, and leave givers to bring
in the
MILITARY etaalatlestroe.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
in pursuance of his notice, said. he had to propose
that a Commission be appointed to inquire hue. the
military expruditure of the country ; the grounds
and motives of which he had stated on a former day.
The objects of the Commission would g) to the in-
vestigation of the Ordnance and Barrack Depart-
rnents, and also the state of the Public Military Ec.
penditure of the kingdom. A very salutary Bill
had passed some time ago, which put an end to that
department, which was before accounted for by the
auditors, but in consequence of so many years of war
as had since ensued, the public arrears were consider-
ably increased. There was no wayasf obtaining a cot-
red account as far es be could see, bile by a separate
commission, and he should propose that there be laid
before them also,for investigation, the accounts of the
Customs, in order to recover whatever minty might
have been taken from the public. lie dad not think
it necessary to expatiate, or go into any details at
present, but would be happy to pay due attentiou
to any suggestions that !night be made in the pro-
gress of the Bill. He then moved for leave "to
bring in a Bill for appointing Corn nissinners to in-
quire into thirailitary exptaditare of the country,
to correct any abuses that may prevail therein, and
to report upon such remedies as may appear to them
to be expediett."
Mr. .1 Frrzeeitato and Sir JOH,/ NEWPORT
wished that the provisions of the Bill should extend
to Ireland, where the abuses were considered to be
very gl 'ring.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, he apprehended that any measure of that kind
must be the subject of a separate Bill, as he did not
think it could conveniently extend to IreLial, but
on that point, be was not decided.
Mr. FOX thought it WAS 'very extraordinary that
the friends and colleagues of the delinquents should
bring forwayd alto:jots for atuathee.Camamiesee of.-.,
the sante nature as the Naval Commission. He
confessed it was a subject which the House should
look to with-the greatest doubt, and when he saw
what persons were likely to name those who should
ad as Commissioners, he thought every honest man
should examine into them in the closest amour. He
would ask, if Lord Melville, or any of his friend*
had brought in the Bill for the purpose of appoint-
ing the present Commissioners of Naval Inquiry.
would the late business e►e: have come before the
House t He did not think any min of candour
would say co. With regard to the delicacy of
the Rigio Honourable Gentleman making such
motions, he would say nothing ; but that he, wader
the same circumstances, would be very sorry to
aS in the same manner. Were not other 4e-
pirtments likely to be abused, for instance the de-
partment of the Treasury ? Should any suspieion
arise relative to it, would the Right Hon. Gentle-
man bring forward such a motion as this, and at
once appoint the Lords of the Treasury sovereign
judges of their own cause ? if he would, no doubt
they woul 1 pronounce themselves innocent.
Lord CA STLER E AGFI observed, that the Hon.
Gentleman who spoke before him, had said. that
were he in the situation of a Right lion. Friend of
his, he would not have acted in the same manner.
He would ask, was it not to the honour of his Right
HM!. Friend to institute such enquiries He called
upon the House not to submit to such language,
such insinuations being thrown out against a man.
whose individual purity, and whose Administration
had been the support of the country, is all its trou-
bles, for so many years.
Mr. FOX explained.
Mr. GREY ceuld not help observing, when h'
heard the Noble Lord descanting on the purity of
the Right Hon. Gentleman, and his administration ;
that, on his opinion, there never was a period in the
history of the country, in which more abate), were
carried on. than in that very time. He knew very)
well the Noble Lord was always more studious to
ter) aside' insinuations, than to eoraradia state-
ments. He remembered, when the Noble Lord
had; with the most becoming indignation, been
busied in repelling the insinuations of a Right
Hon. Gentleman. whom he did not see in his
place, but now intimately counefled with the Ad-
ministration (Mr. Foster) —He reconened that
he combated the insinuation, as he called
it, of any kind of corruption being made use
of for the purpose of bringing about a Legislative
Union between this country and Ireland ; and coo-
chided by pronouncing an eloquent panegyric on
the virtues of the Irish House set Parliament. The
Right Hon. Gentleman, in eaplanation to this, said.
he had not made any insinuations, for be had di.
redly charged corruption on the part of the Noble
Lord for the purpose of procuring votes. Yet to
this charge the Noble Lord, who had shewed such
a disoositom to turn aside the insinuation, made not
the least answer.
The question was then put and carried withoat a
division.
• YISCOUNT
Mr. SPENCER 3/%124140N.: expressed his in.
tention of bringing foevoud s Minims, that the At-
toiney General ahould
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was sufficient to send him to his trial in the Court .f
Eitchtejeer, to account for tee public money, sup-
pnael to be made use of by him. And if, hereafter,
he should be found to be in league with Mr. Ti otter,
he could see no season why an impeachment should
not he brought against hlm at the bar of the l louses
of Lords. He concluded by moving, as he said
the Honourable Geutleman at the other side the
House had relinquished it— •
Tost the lieta-n*y General directed to take such steps as
to him shall by law the bat, fur the purpose of recover
• ing such souls of the publi uto.,ey as ?night be due to the
pu:siic by Vcrenunt •ttd Mr. Trotter, particularly those
atras-tqutut to the Ist of J moan , 1786.
Mr. BANKES was very sorry this question was
brought before the House at present. as he thought
the vote respelling the limited committer should
first be rescinded, and another committee be formed
in a more exterded manner. He was by no means
an enemy to such a measure, but he thought it
should be first examined by a par: of their own
body. Erten the debate on Thursday last, he was
converted the measure proposed would not be the
best For the purpose of coming at the property of the
country ; as the intricacy of the accounts, and the
perplexed manner in which they were k'ept, would
gr, in a great measure, to prevent it. He also
thought that the time a civil aftion would take up
would be ton great for the impatience with which
the country looked to the House on the present occa-
sion ; trig, if any prosecution should at present take
place, it should be rather a prosecution for a breach
of the law, than to recovee the public money.—
lie would, therefore, on account of the magnitude
of the crime, and for the reasons he had before men-
tioned, move as an Amendment, that all the words
after n the Attorney General be deeded" should
be left not, and that there should be substituted for
these, to prosecute Viscount. Whine and Mr.
Trotter for their said offence."
Mr. WINDHAM though: the only way would
be to go itat9 the general e ommittee, and that they
should enquire whether any case ought to be re-
ferred to the Law Officers? Instead, therefore, of
letting the two pmeeedings go on at the same time,
it would in his opinion be the better way to finish
one enquiry, and see whether the other proceedings
were necessary or not.
'the MASTER of the ROLLS thought that if
private emolument had been made, it should cer-
tainly be restored to the Public. The Hon. Gent.
who moved the amen•iment, seemed to think that a
criminalprosecution would be bettertoaseertain whe-
trier V I steiutil Melville participated inthe emoluments
of Mr. Trotter; but he did riot think that it would
be so likeiyoas there must he then even stranger proofs
brought of the participation. The effect of the re-
schnions of the House had been grew, as they had
obtained his Lordship's removal from office, for he
thought in substance his resignation was as much a
consequence of the vote of the House, as if he had
been dismissed. After taking a review of what the
sentence of a court of law •might be,' he expressed
his deter niination of voting for the original motion.
Doft• r LASS att.cs, Sir Jerre N ewroae and Mr.
P c. 4 ts, declared themselves; the two isomer, for
the arnerdrneet, and the latter against fr.
Mr. FOX stated, that his object wasthat Viscount
Melville: should be in some way prosecuted and
penished ; and if he was assured that by ellewiog
this n to be carried, it would finally procure
an impeachment against hum, he should agree to it.
Mr. T. GRF.NVILLE thought the resolutions
which the House has entered into should rather be
followed up by a criminal process, than by a civil
anion, merely ter the purpose of recovering the
")
Mr. SHERIDAN .od, there were two modes
prop seJ ; one for a t Slit, and the other tor a
cfroinal process. he Gentleman who proposed
e for er said, he did not think Viscount Melville
had pa icipated ia the slightest degree in the emnlu-
seats . Mt. Trotter. He would ask, why then did
he as te: that a civil anion should be instituted
mg, ..1m? Surety, every person must see that
eu Motion was absoluely useless, that it must
o. se than useless in the opinion of the Gentle-
meg who made the motion; as, though he was
convinced Viscount Melville did not participate in
the profits of Mr. Trotter, he titsdelhis motion, it is
to he supposed, to prevent those on the other side
from instituting more of eCinal ptoceedings. The
[louse was cow dr;ven to make a choice ni the two
measures. and, something like a Grand Jury who
had not found a Bill, they were about to proceed
for the recovery of the money, assuming every thing
which oneht first to be precisely ascertained. The
House were turning their hacks upon that of which
they had proof, namely, the violation of the law,
and, they were sending the participation, of which
they had no pow f. before a Jury.
Mr. WILRERFORCF.--n -it appears to me,
that the 'Gentlemen on the other side of the House
(ftc Minirtcrial aide) have not sufficiently attended
to the circumstances of the present case. I think
the hest couore is that which has been recommended
by my frier.d (Mr. Pankes), because it is not
only the most likely to succeed, tut also the most
capaVe of being gamest brought to an issue. I
should be sorry to in,titute a pr Bess in which
substantial justice shonld he defeated by the
rules of law, at d that the House should subject
itself to 'he intiratifir,r f ignorance, by adopt'ng
course avowedly objectionable and d.fative Ti ere
is nothing more material to preserve, than respell
fur LtiUftt if LAW, aid there is nothing in
likely to diminish that respell as to say, here is a
great public deltneetent brought into Court. and
that Court is unable to afford redress. There is
another objeaion to the mode of civil process. The
redress which it cou!cl. afford, is merely in money,
whereas something snore effectual might be done
in the other way, in marking the nature and cha-
ra&er of the offence, by the solemn determination of
a court of justice ; nor would even the criminal
court be incompetent to pecuniary redress,• as it
might ;ale& a fine which should operate as restitu-
tion. This mode had been represented as. hat sh and
oppressive, as it it were the intention of those who
--'mended it, to subject the patty to a double
No such idea
ised..- he criminal
-•of the failure
think wf swum-
efficiency of
myself some
clear that the
the law, lout

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doubted whether the letter, pfialieelaw were suffi-
ciently strong. I trust; htt4fitir, from the ti:sieion
of the many eminent lawyers which I have heard
both in doors and aiut of doors, that the objection
which I at list apprehended does nosh really exist.
I wish it to be understood, that it will not be merely
the court of law, bid the House also that will suffer
in the eyes of the country, if we adopt a mode of
procedure in a case, which, although ever sa clear,
finally ended in deleat and disappointment ; and
let no man think, that the esteem of the public is
not an object of the greatest importance to this
House."
Mr. PITT—" I think I am warranted in saying
that the mode proposed by my Honourable Friend
(Mr. S. Stanhope), is that which was approved by
a great majority of the !louse. The question then
is, whether we shall waive it, and substitute one
which the Gentlemen theraseives, aiho have brought
it forward, say is liable to some oh, .ction? The ob-
servation made respecting the powers of the Com-
mittee does not appear to me to be founded in fact
The question of enlarging its powers did not affect
the particular case of Viscount Melville. The doubt
arising upon that subjed was whether the powers of
the Committee were sufficiently nide, and embraced
every other proper ()Ned of enquiry, exclusive of
the particular case referred to a Court of Law ?
That, however is not the question now. The
question now is which of the two modes is prefer-
able ? and I contend that the civil bill is better
calculated to obtain the object than the criminal
process. After having inflided so heavy a
wound upon Viscount Melville, as that which his
Lordship had already suffered, he did not under-
stand that the House wished to follow it up in a
penal way, unless satisfied of his Lordship's parti-
cipation in the profits. Without a consciousness to
that effed, I thought the House would be content
with an assurence that his Lordship was not to re.
turn to His Majesty's Councils. 1 think, there, that
the House ought not to go those lengths which they
declined at first without a further aggravation of
his Lordship's dream. With this feeling, therefore,
I shall vote for the original motion."
Mr. WHICBREAD —" The Right Honourable
Gentleman, who has just sat down, argues as if the
House had decided that they would proceed by civil
suit That, however, is not the case. He has in-
dulged in much sarcasm against me on account of
the course of my proceedings. Sir, I say, that in
what I have done, I have proceeded with delibera-
tion, and I am not sorry for any step I-have taken.
I wish to proceed in both ways. I mean, after the
House had declared itself upon that part of the
chat ge which is indisputabe, I wished for a COM.
mittee to axes taro every thing else conneded with
thesubjed. The House has•decided upon the vio-
lation of the law, but not upon the participation of
Viscount Melville in the profits. Now what says the
Rt. Hon. Gent. (Mr. Pitt)? He advisesus to t-y a civil
suit for the participati4n, while the Law Officers of
the Crown admitted it had little chance of success.
I therefore wish for a mode by which effectual justice
may be done, and that is a Committee of the whole
House. That a great wound has been ingietzsi upon
Vise. Melville by the discovery, I admit ; but is that
a punishment? When a Grand Jury finds a Bill, is
that a punishment for the offence charged, and is
the case nut to be sent for trial to a Petit Jury ? I
admit that the vote of die House compelled tbe
resignation of V aunt Melville ; but there is a
great deal of differeice between that resignation and
his dismissal. The people should have seen and
known that he was dismissed. The etre& ought to
have been plain and palpable to the understanding
of every man. If a civil suit were to discover that
the money was picked out of the pocket of the pub-
lic, would that be punishment, unless followed by
restitution ? I admit I might have the Commit.
tee, and the Right Hon. Gentleman said he would
nut oppose it; but to obtain his concurrence, I must
have abandoned the particular ease in question, and
acquiesced in an attempt to cloak and screen Vis-
count Melville, and that I did not choose to do.
The criminal proceeding is, I am sure, the best cal-
culated to obtain the ends of justice, and 1 shall
accordingly vote for it."
'The A II'ORNEY-GF.NERIII,--‘, I never said
that the civil process must necessarily, fail. I never
said any such thing. I only said, that every dif-
ficulty to be encountered in the Exchequer would
occur in the Committee. I think that if the objet
be restitution far the benefit of the public, the niode
recommended by the Hon. Member behind me (Mr.
S. Staehope) is the best.' Redress in money could
not be obtained by a criminal proceeding, as no
fine could be imposed which could amount to re-
stitution to the public. I admit, however, that there
is a difficulty in the proceeding by civil process ;
but I contend that it is not greeter, but rather less,
than in any other"
Mr. TIERNKY—" I cannot agree in the scanty
and restriaed powers which some honourable and
learned Gentlemen will tally allow to this House. I
always thought. that by the spirit of the constitution
it possessed stronger inquisitorial powers than any
other tribunal in the country. The Right Hun. Gent.
(Mr. Pitt) would have it uncler,t.iod, that the
House does not wish to proceed to any more punish.
ment against Viscount Melville ; but I contend, on
the contrary, that the House has not shewn any dis-
position to stop here. We have voted that Viscount
Melville has violated the law, for private emolument.
What then is the next question ? Why give us the
money back again, and we have done with you ?
But hoe are we to get the money ? The Attor-
ney General givLs very little hope of the mode
proposed ; and therefore I approveof a Committee of
the whole House as the best mode of getting at the
crime, the punishment, and pecuniary redress. I
feel it an unpleasant task to rise for the purpose of
defending the dignity of the House. The House
may not waste its time upon persons of inferior note;
but I contend that there is no precedent of a Minister,
high in the King's Councils formany years, breaking
the law, andsaspeded of acorrupt mot iVein doing so,
being handed over to the Attorney General. lam
confident there is no case nor precedent of the kind.
I disclaim a •indietive spirit towards Viscount Mel-
ville, and assert, that my condu't yields to no influ-
ence, except a sincere regard for the honour of the
House of Commons. 1 think, therefore, that the
House cannot stop here, but, that it must call for
some punishment. The plain question is, whether
the House think. dint enough has been done ? If
they think en.ni4h has been done, they will vote for
a Civil puce.., in concert with the Right Hou.Geut.

a - • -
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was entertained by thosewho advised.:.
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