The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1805-05-15 00:00:00

I ex-

'nte.l with the feat abilities of the Right
°II"' I.m in who is just sat down, I might,
11°,1h'. oCrendtespAir of encountering him successfully,
t previously received the assistance of
"es;"e4ed " together as able as himself; for I
se c°aniisc ly. thew that one half of the Right
osnenrah e (c":ntitjteeman's speech has incontroverti.
other. lie has told us of
answeredof
Lord Nelsen and Lord flutchin-
' 11* tol‘lare'(:so glined b the end
fforts a assistance
whicy h he draws a conclusive
of r t
of e yn of the 'lower orders of the
sa
er,jte also convinced of the loyalty
er the higher
orders of that body, he is de-
orminedto ewer,' it, by refusing. the prayer of
eteon , And larval, and a era 91 lee.r ! hear!/.
thgirlle h ia's also informedus what is the Xrotestant coo.
StaatiOn e
—the it is a risteSt3i,t 1,,
Protestant
An Protestant Commiins_ana hm most
Lan" and eeebnely pointed out to us the
taainnieirtcriar a l"rote
Counsellors. But rastonKing, sroolided by Ca-
tholic p ur
S ir, who is to ef-
that ? The answer is obvious. This very Pro-
testant King himself.---I;he Right Honourable
Centlemal seems whe in fear . safety of
the Hanoverian succession. Who ,{'Sir, is to coas-
tal. prince of the House of Hanover to
Pei --1 himself with Catholic advisers and a
surround
It must he himself phone who can
Catholic Council?
do this—nest if ever a once could be foundtrust, who
would so fir attempt to destroy high re-
h by chusing advisers who should en.
reawsd Dini
onir to subvert
the Constitution, or to change
the nature of the Government in church and state, I
believe there can be no doubt but in this House there
would be found many who would take a pride in
moving to punish such advisers. The Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman says, that if you grant the
raver of this Petition, they will not be contented ;
prop;sn of latc• It he adduces the various concessions
heretofore made to the Catholics ; he says the as-
sertion made by an Han. Gentleman, that it was
little fer as to grant; but much for them to receive,"
ought to be inverted ; and he tells us also, that if
we give them all we h.ive, which is but little, With !
that little they wiU overturn the Constitution and
the Government, In church and state. The Right
flonourable Gentleman tells us that if 50 or GO
Catholics obtain scats in Parliament, there will
be much danger. In what that danger is to con-
see lamat a loss to discover. But ow are these
.st) or 60 to obtain seats in parliament ? What is to
become of the Protestant gentry What is to be-
come of their tenantry? Who are the persons that
are to return those Catholic; ? The teas of it is most
futile; for my .own part, 1 really believe' there
would not be ten Catholics returned in as many
years. The Right Hon. Gentleman allows, how-
ever, that if even 100 Catholics should obtain
see. in this House, their efforts would be nugatory,
er of very little avail against the other 555. But,
Wing they have no weight or influence equal to
what they expected, they heconse discontented here
too—and woat do they do ? The Right lion.
Gent. by a peculiar. kind of logic,- 'hews, that they
• will .I.;,ssolye the Union. After having used their
talrnu, their unanimity, and adherence to each
other, without Any avail, they contrive to dissolve the
Union in spite of the 555, and send themselves back
Wand, there to form a Popish Parliatittni 4, loud
hash, and era tf hear, bear, hea
or ! ) There is some-
at
thing ridiculous ; I beg pardn, Sir, for using th
word ; I mean not the slightest disrespelt to any
Gentleman, more especially the Right Honourable
Gentleman, to whose argument I am particularly
alluding, and for whose personal charafter I en-
tertain the highest respea and esteem ; but I can-
rot help saying there is same ping not only ridi-
celous, but contemptible, to hear Gentlemen argue
that there is any actual danger to the Consti-
tution or the Government in Church and State from
admitting a fewCetholics to have seats in Petliament.
I have, Sir, however, heard arguments used in this
House, which have made on my mind a most deep
impression, and from which, one would be led to
think that some men were sent here only to circulate
c tunnies, and to draw the most odious piCtures of
the character of our common country. I have heard
'hernias of tbe Irish peopledescribed as blood-thirsty,
ignorant, and ferocious, and that this applied to the
1 iwer orders in particular. I have heard as much
ed, Sir, in another place, but I did not feel
it with so much pain or indignation there es
I did with shame here. I cannot but feel
sorry to hear such a char After given of a body of peo-
ple, who, under so meny disadvantages as they have
had to contend with, are, in my opinion, the very re-
verse of what they have been described; and I think
one of the strongest proofs is, that those who have
given chit chars ter of them have returned to Ireland;
and I defy any person living toistove a single instance
iht yrhich the people, who have been thus degraded,
have ever expressed the least personal resentment,
Sr inflieed any personal vengeance. A Right Hon.
and Learned Gentleman (the Attorney General)
mid yesterday, that if he had been in His Majesty's
councils at the time, he would have objeaed to the
/Why* franchise being granted to the Catholics,
and also to the establishment of the College of May-
nuoth. This latter objeftioo, I own, struck me
most forcibly. Whet would the learned Gentleman
do with the Catholics ? Would he have them
brought up in the grossest ignorance ? Would he
permit them no place of education, by which they
might berendered useful members of 110Ciet y, and good
and loyal subjeets ; or would be have them sent out
of the country to be educated in the seminaries of that
Pope, of whose principles lie has so great a dread,
sad to whose power he thinks it necessary to op-
pose such strong and formidable bars ? I am heartily
glad, Sir, the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman
did not form a part of His Majesty's Councils at the
period when those salutary measures took place, and
I sincerely and devoutly hope he never will be con-
1114ed on any future occasion of a similar kind. So
much having been said, Sir, of the danger of a Pro-
testant King being surrounded with Catholic ad-
'ober, ; I would wish to suppose an instance
which may, perhaps, place the subjca in a somewhat
different point of view. I niil suppose there should
be A gentleman born and educated as a Catholic,
who should be possessed of very superior talents
and endowments; that he was an excellent scholar;
.a good historian ; a great financier; an accomplish-
ed gentleman; and a complete statesman; and that
a Protestant King, understanding all this, should
coso to employ him ; would it 4ul be an aA of

folly or madnest, et both, in this taut, after the
King had thus taken him into his confidence, if he
shoeld advise his. Sovereign to adopt any measure
that might tend to overturn the constitution or the
state ? It would most unquestionably ; and such an
adviser could not possibly escape being brought to
condign punishment fur his attempt. It would
be the same if there were more Catholics in
the Council ; an'. it is ridiculous to suppose chit the
would forfeit the confidence of their King, and
draw on their heads the hand of vengeance. and
punishment more than l'iwes• ant, would.
lint
it seems, Sir, in the opinions of some Hon.
Gent Linen, that Catholics are unlike all other men,
that they are not to he believed on their oaths.
Other Dissenters of various classes may be believed
on their oaths, but a Catholic never ; like the lover,
" if eesweers, he'll certainly deceive." The Rt. Hon.
Gent. who spoke last allows that many of those
who have signed the Petition, he knows to be " men
of worth." Yet the idea of a Catholic not being to
be believed on his oath, can surely form no part in
the character of a man of worth—nor can any man
ever he entitled to that charatier, of whom such an
idea can be seriously entertained An objeaion has
been urged against this Petition, on the ground of
its not being signed by any of the Catholic Clergy.
I believe the true reason to he this—the Catholics
wished to have this measure understood, as it is re-
ally meant, a respectful Petition for a civil right, un-
connected with their religious tenets ; and therefore
it was not signed by the Clergy, because it was consi-
dered as an aft relating solely to the laity of that per-
suasion. I have a hook in ml pocket, Sir, out of
which I will beg the leave of the !louse to read a
few shop 1 eett eels. I am aware that it is not the most
agreeable thing to trespass on the patience of the
House, by reading books to them; lent there have been
so many gross misrepresentations circulated against
the tenets of the Catholics, in order to raise pre-
judices against this case, that I must intreat your in-
dulgence. It is, Sir, a Roman Catholic Prayer
Bonk, which the Clergy put into the hands of their
flock, and out of which they perform their devotions:
( Here 3/r. Pensonty read a renunciation of the rehobes,
which went to slam, Mat then, do nut think the POPE
ra-
or that thra are or casts be dikpensed ha an„ oar,
for any act of criminality, or breach of the Inwi of mo-
rality. Also, en orb, vzhich revs, In express terms,
that they do not behest, in Me Info;tibility y" the Pope,
and that thco owe allegionce to the King, antler whore
Government they lice ; that the Port cannot give them
dispensation
.from that °Alliance; but then are bound
to
_fight for, and posed their King and Lis Government
ageilst all enemies, even though the fort himself should
enter the kingdom, at the head of an invading at )
Mr. Ponsonby continued—" It these, Sir, are not Sa-
tisfactory renunciations and abjurations of all those
absurd tenets which have been attributed to these
people, then, I think, no such can be framed. 1 be-
lieve there is not a parish priest in Ireland who has
not taken this oath, and, God forbid they should
think they were not bound to perform and etrialy
adhere to I'. But, Sir, if this dreadful character of
the Catholics were true, I think the Protestants in
Ireland mast be the strangest set of ings that ever
were formed. There are, sir, at this very moment,
according to the articles of the Union, a certain num-
ber of noblemen and gentlemen who swot Vfer to
this country to attend their dilt!l hilrailiaments their
aria, peftlps, somewhere about ono. hundred. and
this, MISC of thems their propel ty, their chil-
dren, and even in some cases their wives, under the
care and proteaion of Catholic servants, who, if they
were the wretches which some persons describe the
lower orders of the Irish Catholics to be; WV
should be the most unfeeling and carelesi guar-
dians of all that is most dear to human nature,
to trust than in the care and custody of those who
are under the immediate influence of their priests.
and these men are not to be believed ou their
oaths. Bat, Sir, I will be bold to say, never was
there so foul a misrepresentation, and so gross
a caltimoy, as this against the luish Catholics. I
know them well ; and I know, at the same time,
that whatever there is good ia them, they owe to
themselves—whatever there is bad in them, they
owe to you. Yes, Sir, I will say, it is owing en-
tirely to your bad Government. I have many
friends and near connections here, Sir, for whom I '
feel the highest respect, and most affectionate re-
gard. I love this country, Sir, and would do every
thing in my power to serve it. But I will not ast•
ter it. You have governed Ireland badly. That
country has long appeared to you in the light
of what has been called a boar. You have
viewed it as a cast off, not worthy your notice
or regard, and so Ministers got rid of the trouble
of it, they did not care how, or in what way.
I believe, Sir, I can trace the origin of this mis-
government of Ireland to ancient tones, and that its
rise is to he attributed to commercial jealousy. In
days of yore, those who composed the mercantile
world were imbued with the moon, that the poorer
you could make other countries, the richer would
be your own. Ireland, unfortunately, imbibed this
notion. At the time of the revolution there woe; a
dispute between two families which should possess the
Government of this country. and Ireland became
MU unfortunately involved in the contest. I do
not mention this, Sir, with any intention of throw.
ing the smallest degree of blame or censure on
your ancestors. T merely adduce it as matter of
historical fall, to shew how the Irish have been
treated for so long a series of years. From those
who are mere men, you can't expect the actions
of superior beings. You can expect the virtues of
freemen from slaves ; and whets I reflect on this, in-
stead of being astonished at the situation of the
Irish Catholics, I am lather surprised that they
have been able to conduct themselves so well as
they have done. lam not surprised, hoverver, that
they now petition; but I am very much surprised
that a petition has not been presented long before.
I own I am surprised the petitioners were Catholics,
because I think the Protestants should have volun-
tarily brought it forward. That would have pro-
duced the h.ppiest effeas, and have shown a confi-
dence highly honourable to them. Power, in itself,
is at all times dangerous ; but when you suffer
one sea to lord it over another, you cannot wonder
if the feelings become warm and animated, and
if discontents and jealousies are the consequence.
Let us now, for a moment, Sir, consider the policy
of Frunce. Fn. est eh haste thweri. Bonaparte has
formed an alliance with the Pope, who has been at
'• aud Ablated in placing e crown of the

P

empire on that Eifipenes head. The Pori.; Ca-
thoi;r is the established religion of Franc, and yet
Protestants are there ailmi..silde to all (Aces of
honour, trust, aid priifit, as well as Catholics. Some
persons affea to think. and do tot scruple to say,
they can put more faith in Protestants than in Ca.
tholics. Let us see how far this is consonant with
reason, and justified by the test of experience, so far
as relates to ourselves. Prinien and /Norio, in the
last war, were both our allies. The former. a Pro-
testant Prince, took our subsidy, and cheated us
of our money, by withdrawing himself from ow
alliance and the war; the latter, a Catholic Prince,
bravely and honourably stood by us, till he could
fight no longer. In the last war, Sir, France lost al-
most all her American or West India possessions i
but the rulers of that country, like wise politicians, in
order to make themselves amends, turned all their
attention to making themselves strong in Europe.
They therefore added Holt Ind, Flanders, Italy,
and Switzerland, to their former territory ; and when
a peace took place, the greatest part of what we had
taken horn them in the East and West Indies was
restored to tbem.• Bonaparte well knows now that
whoever is strong in F.urope must ultimately have
the East and West Indies. It is that which forms the
strength and power of the political tree—it is that
which gives the lofty head and magnificent foliage,
and which enables it to spread its branches the
most distant quarters of the globe. Europe may
truly be called, Magna Mater Vining ; and as our
enemy has turned so much of his attention to the
consolidation of his power in Europe, we ought to
follow so wise t policy and do the same. ~hove
all, Sir, we ought as much as possible to consolii
date our strength, by uniting the affections of
all ranks and descriptions of persons among our-
selves. And unless you think you will or can over-
turn the Constitution, by admitting a few Catho-
lics to sit in Parliament; you will do a most
politic ad by granting the prayer of this peti-
tion, and thereby uniting in affedion and political
harmony every description of His Majesty's sub-
kids, who will cheerfully join heart and hand,and lay
down their lives together, should it be necessary, in
defence of that Constitution and Government under
which they all enjoy the benefit of equal laws."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—
" Sir, feeling as I do, favourably disposed to the
general principle of the question. but differing,
at the same time, in some respects from those
who have brought it forward, I must take the
liberty of stating the grpunds of my conilud ;
and in the first place to express my satisfaaion
at the temper and moderation with which the
subject has been discussed. • This temper and mo-
deration will, I hope, continue until the close
of the disi.ussion ; and I am the more anxious that
they should, as of all the questions that could come
before the House, the present is one in which it is
the most essential to avoid all heat and animosity.
I am happy also, that the manner in which it has
been brought forward relieves me from a difficulty,
which I bad some reason to fear I might be obliged
to encounter. lam happy, Sir, to tind, that the
right has been gitTri.up ; and anat.' r:idisitre.,
that it is sr. '.7 upon the wound of expediency that
uestiou can be passed. I have always con-
sidered, that the Catholic claims, or demands, for
as to the phrase, Catholic Emiticlpaticin, I have el.
ays contended, it did not apply to the merits of the
case, and was not descriptive of the state of the Irish
Catholics ; I say, Sir, I have always conside red that
these claims were matters of expediency, and not of
right. I think, however, that the ground of expediency,
as urged by the Hon. Gentleman who ripened this
debate, and by those who have succeeded h.ro, is
so slight, that it scarcely differs by a shade from
the assumption of a right. On the c,nitrary, I
think there is in fad a great dioinaion between
right and expediency in the 'present case, and that
whoever takes a fair and accurate view of it can be
in no danger of confounding them. In every case
where the sobjed matter is of a private nature,
there the principle of right must prevail over every
other ; but in a question where the objea is of ge-
neral interest—where the highest and most im-
portant offices in the state are to be given
away, where the franchises are extended, and great
public trusts are reposed, these are done for the
sake of the public, and not of the individual; and,
therefore, in all questions relating to tests or laws,
that which, upon the principles of liberty itself, we
are bound to consider, is, what is hest to be done
under all the circumstances of the case, never, at
the same time, losing sight of the imerest of the
individual, but keeping it in view, and promoting
it, as far as it is reconcileable with the interests of
the State. Therefore, it is not sufficient to look at
the tight, if even such had been preferred, upon
the present occasion, but to see, unati all the cir-
cumstances, how the giving or with-holding the
highest offii:es in the state, and the other privileges
sought by the Petition, may operate with respea to
the country at large. Feeling that unanimity was. of
all things, the most desirable, and most conducive to
the strengthand happinessoftheEilipire,and wishing,
therefore, that all laws imposing distinctions which
might endanger or prevent that unanimity, might be
abolehed. I could not be supposed to be friendly to
their continuance; yet I felt that in an possible case,
previous to the union, curls' these privileges be
given to the Irish Catholics, consistent with the Pro-
testant interests in Ireland, and the tonne Linn be.
Lenten that country and England. After the union,
I viewed that circumstance in a totally different
light. My declarations, and the principles which I
maintained upon that sitbjed, have been truly stated
by my Right Hon. Friend behind me.. I was friend-
ly to the measure, but 1 gave no pledge. (Hear
Hear!) Any Gentleman has it in his power to
refer to my sentiments upon the subject when he
pleases, and I think he will find that my statement
is correct The line of distinction which I drew was,
that after an union, these privileges might be ex-
tended to the Catholics with mare safety than
before such a measure; that they might be I
brought forward with more chance of success, and
that, in the event of a refusal, the result would be
attended with less danger. I certainly was of opi-
nion, that under the circumstances of an united
kingdom, they might be given with such guards
and restrictions, as •would render the bison safe to
the country, effectual to those who received, inno-
cent to those by whom it was conferred, and con- '1
ducive to the strength, unanimity, and prosperity of
the empire. If &con:mutates permitted me to enter
. .

~ e

into detail, I think the discussion of the question ••
would chew that after an union, the claim, of tne
Catholics, if granted, would not give them each a
preponderance as would endanger the Cottstipleion.
When I say this, I do not, however, shut my eyes to
the argument, that the Catholics would. under any
circumstances, endeavour to advance their own re-
ligion: That they would disclaim any such view or
intention, for a time, sincerely iribelieve ; but that
they might fail in that resolution. that they might
s verve from that purpose, I also believe. It is the na-
ture of the human heart to lapse into those pursuits •
which must be grateful to it, and I do not complain
because I may apprehend this consequence. My idea
is, that, with proper guards, restrißions, and provi-
sions, that danger might be avoided, and the grant
be rendered at once safe and efficient to every •
purpose. I do not mean to say, that the Catholics
were engaged as Catholics in the rebellion that re-
ceded the Union. Ido not mean to say, that it was
a rebellion springing from religion, and not from
jacobinical principles. Ido not, on the °they hand,
mean to say, that religion might not have had some
influence, and that Priests in their ignorance, their
prejudices. and their bigotty, did nut aggravate
the evil, though they did not constitute its soerce.
But if we could guard against the danger of jaco-
binical principles, mixing themselves with religious
distinaions, if we could guard against the ignorance
and bigotry of priests, so as to make them the in-
struments of the loyalty and attachment, of the Ca-
tlvilici.to the Government, and so many links of
connection between them ard the state, instead of
the means of separation, and agitate rs who, by in-
fusing their prejudices, divided the Catholic trom
the Protestant, and alienated him from his duty;
that 1 conceived would be a wise and liberal sys-
tem to pursue. But that, in prosecution of this
plan we should ad abruptly and inconsiderately, I
never intended. We were not to throw at once every
tning into confusion ; but my idea was to impose
checks and guards which, while they secured
against the danger of the innovation, would provide,
additional nneins of defence for the country, ensue
the respen due to the Protestant Clergy, and en-,
tend a proper influence to the Roman Catholic com-
munion. These, Sir. were the views vehich I had
with respeiSl to the Catholic claims, and if it woo pot-
sible to carry that system intoeffea, and a person could
be found at utsce willing and competent to digest
that system, and prepare a code that should embrace
these objets. I think such a nieasore would upon the
whole have been advantageous to the Empire. But e
when I state this, 1 must say, that I coesidered the
time of the Union favourable to the acconiplishment .
of the purpose ; and upon this ground, which I
then stated, an expectation must have been Dell; ally
excited, that the Catholic could not have eptertained
before the completion of that measure. I thought
besides, that the secusity derived by the Protest:sots
of Ireland from the Union, by,incnrporating th=in
with the British Empire, and that under ti=e :cr. so
of how much the Protestant interest of Ireland
must, in consequence, preponderate over that cf
the Irish Catholics„ the great obstacle
of the Caolnikcs was removed. I did,
theiefore, hope, that if it had !. en in my plume
to bring forward tireseclaims without reviving th
Jealousies and :animosities, Without dolling a col-
lision of those contending feelings on the
.part cif
Catholics and Protestants, the renewal in evisieto
cannot be too much deprecated, or too canefully
avoided ; the besiness mieht be Brought to a happy
issue. Unfortunately, however, in my lapilli( n,
circumstances have happened to prevent me, net
only from bringing it forward in the way in which .t
ought, in the surly way which would afford
hope of success, but in which it could be done with-
out great collateral danger. What these ch curls-
stances arc, 1 have already, I hope. sufficiently ex-
plained; and I di no hold myself bound to enter
into further parti esl as upon the subjea. I can
only say, that the circumstances, as long as they
should continue, ate such, I felt it imoossible
for me to be a party in pressing and agitating
this glicition. Besides, the essence of the mea-
sure which I had to propose was of conciliation
and unanimity, and, therefore, nothing could in-
duce me to agitate the question, and produce an
aggravation of those diffoulties. the removal of
which was my great ohjed. These circurestaces
then existing, i felt a determination, .upon no ac-
count to 'wen the questiolo unless it could be car-
ried with the unanimity necessary to give it comirlete
effea. lam not visionary enough to suppose that
it could be carried at any time with universal con.
concurrence. AU I could expel we., that the diffi-
culties in the way might be so smoothed, as not to
lead to dagger. If it could he carried with such a
degree of unanimity as thisnit would he well; but I see
very little, indeed, I might say. no chance of cars
rying it as a measure of conciliation, peace. and
unanimity; and it not so carried, it wend be likely
to revive old animosities, and prodode all the evils
that follow expetations raised npnn false grounds,
and the distippintment that must a course
ensue. As to carrying it with general concur-
rence, by qualifying the Catholic, withcut of end-
ing the Protestant, by fastening the affeaions
1- one class of subjeas, without loosening the
hold which we have of the hearts and affellions of
another, in whose welfare we are at least penally
interested, and whole interests we ale at least equal-
ly bound to consult, is what Ido not hope. On the
contrary, the impression upon my mind is, that the
discussion of the subject, tinder the present circm-
u
stances, can do no good, and may Jo mischief.
Looking to all the classes of Protestants in this
country, and in Ireland, I thir.k that this is the most
unfavourable time in which the measure could be
brought forward—and were f to say, that. at no
time could it be urged, when the discussion would
produce more mischief, I do not think I shouid en-
counter much difference of opinion. The present
state of men's minds does not afford any inducement
to bring it forward with a chance of meeting no
opposition, Akre we not all :mare the., ever since
the Cuing. it has been, more or less, in public dis-
cussion. aver since the notice of the rearm prc-
reeding wassiven, it hes been a subje4 which ba,,
a peculiar degree occupied the pu".lic mind ;
and, front I that have been able to learn upon
the business, and my own observation, it does ape
pear to me that the public sentiment is strong and
;Jut's' against the measure. But that this is a fatal
(skied: win l do not say. What i aeoOrAble Pirtmin-
*ince* may hereafter occur IQ 4uHiteteiris adoption,
. • '

~.e .