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when Tories and High Churchmen openly espoused I
the cause of the Pretender.—(Hear.)—But per-
haps he should be told that in these instances the '
persons 1411114 d to acknowledged no foreign autho-
rity. But what if he were to tell of a sinall sect of
Christians, whose principles were universally ad-
mired ; who, living in England, recognised •
foreigner as their spiritual head. The persons he
alluded to composed the sect of the Nloravians—
f Heark—and he doubted not that the head of the
Roman Cho-ch, residing in his Palace at Rome,
was not more desirous of disturbing the peace of
England than the hri.d of the Illaravisu Church,
in his humbler dwelling at Fulton:h. England, he
runarkerl, was now the only country in Eutope
where men were punished for their religious (mi-
llions. Ile quoted the words of Locke, that no
man should lie punished for his religious opinions,
and coacluded by observing, that no man in the
present age of general knowledge could seriously
think of imputicg to the Roman Catholics the ab-
surdities and follies of their ancestors, in those
periods when the human mind had made compara-
tively but little progress. lie should vote fur the
snot ons.—(lkor.)
The Bishop of PETERBOROUGH—If this were
a question of religion merely, the Noble Esrl op-
posite should have his vote, for no osie could be
viore rfecir!edly hastile to any tlnitg bordering on
religious persecution, but it arts evident from the
Petitions on the table. 641 nothing less than au ex-
tensing) of civil eights and political power was re-
triired by the RUM:IO Catholics. Ile disclaimed
4 very sentiment which would cast 011 the Roman
11:111111/11eS such imputations as the Noble Earl hail
',flitch(' to in lii• speech. It was not on ahstract
piinciples that he would argue for the propriety of
•st holing the Petitioners, Intl because that with
slini.ci principles were connected others which
%vete not obstruct, lie should be obliged to re-
lose this it tailors!. Let them believe as they
pleased 111 transubstantiation, or ally other doctrine
• h'-ruin the Churches of England and Houle way
d 1:. r, lint if aid, this begirt they connected a sults-
ur:osiitii to a foil-Igo potentate, derogatory to the
&toy they owed King t fenrge, lie should not give
thrust trpial 1111.1-611'111:t6 aisle those who gave tin ir
unilivaltd allegisiice to King George iiltogether.—
(lieor, l•cor.)—\u our, lie thought, could deny
that s' litre allegiance was um qual, the claims of
those r ho the advantages of die Coostitution
noun also be unequal ; owl it followed from this,
that if the members of die Church of Ruins ,livided
04,4 allegiance, giving part to their own Savers
igu
roil part to a foreigner, they ought nut to be
pl aed on the sauna rank • ith those oho gave all
tirii uliegiance to their native Krug. lie argued
theil un the danger that must arise to the Church of
Eir;;!siof from such concessions, abd urge,' that the
!wilt ef Rome, not., ithstaidtog what had fallen
f:um his Lamed Friend, was as desirous as estr of
striolnig its authority. The Order of Jesuits, re-
in:ll,ll4ll,d by the prt sent Pope, were not restored
in vain, nor acre the Romish Cltrgy generally less
atixt,•ll. than the Jesuits to assist in promoting the
power oft he Sovereign Pontiff. This they were bou Lid
to (la, tint Iran be their own dt slres than by the obli-
gati of an oath ; for by a decree of the Council of
Trent, confirmed by a Bull of Pius I V. no clergyman
could be nustituted without taking an oath, declar-
itig 't .Surattum N npnAtolicain ecelesiarn I:mutton:
esse .11,thitin et dumiatnn omnitint eerlesiarum," and
most they nut desire that the property in the pos-
session of the servant should be enjoyed by the
" Mirtre-s of all Churches," being of course the
Mistress of the Chuicli of England ? Ile spoke of
the danger that attend, il the church in Ireland, if
the Popish priestlium: ucquirtd upsl political
power with the Protestmits, and inked what security
the King could hose, if he were surrounded by a
Rramish es.tablislnnent. The cotiaa guei,ces of such
it state of things ‘\ tie too paiiiful fur iftsciiption,
but he trusted that their Lordships' decision that
night auula remove all cause of apprehension.—
(/Par, /our.)
The Ent of RosEDERRY ro'e, but spoke nl a
A•ety inaudible tone of voice. Ile expressed (4s we
could collect) his satisfaction at basing an opportu-
nily of .xpliorring his sentinwilts lii favour of his
Roman Catholic fellaw•subj,cis. 'fhe question
sins, aliedier Ireland should take that station which
tiattire a..,1 the Constitution assigned to her, or
a li. they site should still be retarded in her progress
to wealth and happiness. Ile observed that the •
rim-stint' was of less interest in the dine of peace,
1 Lan in the went of being :again engaged
ill Lostditirs, and 110 better preparation could
lie Made to !Ora the iinpendiug danger than
this opt, if concession. which would convert disaf-
fection to loyalty, and draw even from the sources
cf discontent the means of strerigth. In such •
vase our armies might be led abroad to meet the
foreign enemy, instead of being confined at home,
in site thsgractful duty of watching our own popu-
latioti.
Lord 1)E DINSTANVILLE, we lament to state,
arlso spoke ill a tune of snide 60 extremely low, as to
tie for the most port quite inaudible below the bar.
The Noble Lord quoted the opinion of the ltev.
Dr. the Vicar Apostolic of the Catholic
Church in this country, on the Bill which was in
tie, year 1813 brou4lit into the Lower Douse, and
declared himself under the necessity of thinking,
that the measure now proposed would not have the
effect of satisfying the views of' the Petitioners, for
w;tose beirtfit it was intended. Ile was fully of
op : 01011 that the English Catholics ought to be
put upon the Sallie flailing us the Irish. But lie
slid not ihiuk this motion calculated to produce the
desired effect ; sod he felt himself, therefore, with
ijeat regret, under the necessity of giving his vote
irgainst it.
The Lords CHANCELLOR thought that in the
present question, the real point at issue was, not
what would satisfy the Catholic alone, but what
would or ought to satisfy the Protestant.—(Hear,
/:ear.)—The Noble Lord who made Ibis motion
1. i.l out 1:11111e fora ard with any specific proposition.
Ni'llat oaths did Isis Lordship mean to propose in
tar place of di ire which lie meant to repeal ?
a hat oaths had he which could reconcile the Pro-
testaut to his measure ? Surely he ought, in the
first instance, to say what course lie meant to take
sit the Committee. Perhaps in making this liatti-
I idar call for the measures which the Noble Lord
etitemplated, lie exposed himself to the impute.
t of the cavilling precision of a lawyer. lie
spoke ;trollops with the prejudice of a lawyer,
anderstaailing the principles, as lie trusted he

. ..
did, of British law. It was because he felt a of Lora Ilardwicke upon the laws ea4cted at the 1 drstanditig upon this paint, it Might be Weceisary
jealousy for their preservetion that he was thus Revolution, He avowed that he was ready to steed ,to consider what were, and what were not, the fen-
early in stating, that though lie yielded to no . or fall by that
law'oinion. Lord Herdwicke clearly dements! laws 111)311 which the Protestent Constitu.
man in the warmest attachment for toleration, I laid down the that this was a Protestant Con- ton rested. lie would, to the first instance, pro-
in the sense in which tolvretion ought to be pro. . 'routing', and that it Was protected and guarded as ceed to mattibat the first argument of the Noble
perly entertained, yet he did not hesitate to coo. : ands by the laws of the. land. Ile. Paid it
.was nod Learned Lord, (frt the Constitution, as este-
which he felt in reconciling guarded from ecclesiasticel usurpation.—(Cries blished at the Revolution was reclusively and es-
the utter difficultv
the doctrine of' the King's supremacy in ecelesias- lof hear, hear, front she Opposition heaehes.)— sentially Protestunt. He would yield to no man
tical affairs with that of the right of the Pope to Let the Noble Lords wbo cheered him bores while in his reverence H0(1 WIIIIIIIIIIPIII for the religion
any ecclesiastical supremacy in the readmit of his lie repeated, that any admission of supremacy trot lie professed, and when the Nolde and Learned
Majesty. Let their LordslOpe see what Perliament within the reran', but out of the retain, was eccle- Lord used the phrase " a Constitution tssereially
could adopt consistently with the provisionsof the 'Mistiest usurpation, end precisely that against which Protestant," he (Rail Grey) wished to see if lie
Constitution, which could guard the authority of it was the object of the law to provide.--(Rent, understend the Noble mod Learned Load's defini-
the Crown against the interference of a second was that species of tyranny as well us duil—he took it to be 0.14, the! at the
oaf
ecclesiastical power iii the State, if the claims pot usurypation which must ter 11l i t tate fatally for the It- for the perpose of scenting the liherty oaf the coun-
forth by the Roman Catholics were to be implicitly bestirs of the people, Such was the opinion of Locke, try, which lied Levu emleiagertel by the enemies
admitted. Before their Lordships could bring such of Paley. The supporters of this motion must of parties who widied to promote the Catholic
their minds to a deeisien upon this question, they be prepared to say, that they v.lll, should they religion, it was provided that the King Phiiidil lie
must take an historic reference to the state of carry their measure, leave the Protestant church in iof the Protes'aet r.digion, that the State slieuld
the existing laws, which were enacted between !relent! to fare as it cam The sionnetat they so he essentielly Piot, stale, Hod t hat the Bill or
the stars 1660 :Ind 1668, mid so,requently— eameigned it, he would ask. what hecente of ilwir Rights and Act of Settlemetat plot ecterl this Pio-
If they beliescd the record of those times, that the ullegience, what because of* the securiiiea which testent mint tale. The objection lie Isail to the
tnechmations of the Catholics hail imperatively led their secretors had interwoven animal the pillers argioneets of the Noble wad Learned Lord was,
to the enactments which (Ahmed—if they believed of their church, tied what of their owls solemn . Ilea lie (the bard Chancellor) appeared to make lan
that the &chime of that church had created this pledges to support the supremacy of thet church ? distinction le-totem the Irene tat the Constitution
necessity—then they must feel that outer a new case --In the years 171)9 and 1800, wheii rel+Xeli mm which were Imidamental and essential, atilt those
should he sliew u, awl until the Church of Itonse were spoken of in a particular niatieer for the ii which were collateral and i•tibsidiary. The Noble
revokes the dortaiiies which are ascitheil ta her, tt liftman Catholics, nobody ever thought that and Learned Lord seemed to piece out of his sight
is impossible to uthuit the broad claim ef the Ireti. the broad claim of *elms' Privilege would have altogether that some of the fundamental principles
tioner , and at the same time to adliete to the been ►started by them. Securities were talked of whorls lie married should lie neurnailvnt, had been
great colislitutiothil maxims of the Stine. 'flie at those periuds—the veto—domestic 'Pauline- telexed end modified shire the It eveltition ; and if it
great tomp„,.‘ teeter,' iitto iii 1688, between the 'ton. But tiny bad the utitliority of 1)r. Alillier could be shrall that many el them were thetnted lay
people and the Kole, r. Ns, that there should be • Rod of others, that those iirroligelllent, were lin. Vilflieulit erelitN which wer, cogent HI the time bar
Protestant King, a Protestant Parliament, and a satisfactory und morns 1 p.ete ; ..0 that fan prospective Ike enactineets diet wife adopted, but which were
Protestant Government, ,dike acknowledzlag the arrangements not is4lisfactin Vto the community sit pmt longer justilieble or seesesseiy, then he would
spilitual supremacy of the Crown. The freedom of whose behalf they were itnele, the oblate state of ask e hat became of the Noble awl Least sitql I..nril's
this Constitutimi happily wa., that tan Mini could be the Cinistitution niust be allele'', o new system ef argument, matt %drat of the broad prieciple maim
questiontel upon of persecuted for his reheious tier- laws fortnell,hant to eatis'y one part of thecominunity, which alone I:e could I ointl it, lie fully teal
mons; that he could not be molested el ihe actual but to alienate amother.--( I leur.)--The head cordially admitted that the Constitution was Nude-
exercise of them, unless he so del:erned hituselfiliat lof s Isiugdain mien la
v law be a PrArl4:ll lillig; lUMUlally illtil t'SSeittlilly Proll'Slafil ;it was eqaully
a political eth-et sesolteil therefrom to the injury or —the moment he cera•ed to be that, lie frit t
ai clear that it was liindamenially and essentially a
intslestatiots of society ut large. By the Print:llde rh'ed to I.lale, Illat 11t was entitled to nil ullegience free Constitutiou. To support porserve that
upon which the law wes tal teed at Hail shortly after from liiiii. Dow, then, did their l.nrdlillys Olean to rrceduni it had keening. necessary `atol
1.9 WiPely tieCep.
the Reioltoion, offices of* trust and poster were ex. II act ? Nl..ould they, in the first moaner. repeal the I seri) at a former period :u cutlet laws excluding
I
eluded from the Catholics. It was fn: molly en- existing laws, and then call for securities to guard the ,at
from power. A variety of. Acts
acted that no man Amnia sit on the Throne who agentet the evil which they weir tireaot to revel— passed colac e eirently at the time, but unite of
was a Proteataigt—it aas a tieCk6l6%aty part of the securities, too, which they must see were 1111.:Itit them erre of that fuod.inentul and essential
mechanism of the wise arratigetnents of their slices- factory In the party givnig awl the petty tokiug maitre which they were represented to be.
tors, that whets they established the Throne Ilium a thern ? It was titi old indent) ofthat oliat was If they were, how did it Implicit thin so many of
basis exclusively pactmaut, thoy riopom protect eith difficulty gamed wes easily t skeit away, notes* I them had bee.' eitace modified or repealed ?
that Sovereign Islam the ogeticy of Boman Ca• upheld by strenuous titian., fie would apply this (/—By the Act of Settlement, 110 perSiiii
thaliC advisers, tither ill lass Councils or 111% Par- niuxiiii to this questimi, and say, that ii less they holding en office of trust tinder the Crown could
liatneatats. Ti,,, tlacy effectuelle slid—they did at reniaiiied fire' ut their post, they would live to see have it seat its ParledliamThe 'ent—tmihetlt d Act was sho
rtly
the Itevolu t Me—they dial at the Union is ith Seot• the day when they elimild suffer for i heir supineness. uftertverds repea. et he Pivy
laud— they dill it, lie might add, at the Union with It was an old end good coestentioar,! titexiiii, that Comiro, in the Manlier it was secured by the Bill
Ireland, bar iii all three they effectually recognised frceilion was d•spensed is' all uteri at this realm, SO iof Itielos, was also shortly repealed. The Trien.
the great pi nu iplt aof the ilevialution. Thr ques- long HS they acksioaledged tilt *Nut inacy of the vial Bill, altering isi feet the constitution of Par.
!ion was now, whether, after the experietare they Coestitutien, lost that such as did net as..kilowledge I Waiver, was repealed in the first sal King George I.
haul of the practical lalessiegs or a ...taw,u which, its gopromars, !sad no reason kr comp4iiii of its ex. n measure difficultly justified at the time by strong
dispensed more civil liberty dials any other which clusion.—(
the/Canutelene, ear.)—lii. uosn finis persuasion necessity, but which in its future tendelicy had
had rear yet iis atiy.ttge or notion existed, they was, that itution of this (wintry wet ad. had, as he thought, a most urious effect.—
would !WOW at readiness to revert to the Situation in inirably adapted to the stale of Vie 'Tonle. It All those Acts had been suers sslvely repealed,
which they study adore the enactment of those se- orotected those who supported HS well as those who i 111151 Yet that
Noble and Learned Lord had talked
Intary laws, There were, lie tad heard, legal dissented from its prerogetive. The lane it 'lain- Of the Constitution as being ail malienable and
doubts started 'won the applicability, or litileed the tallied by its establish:new—the other it protecteal permanent substance. At the Itevolutiou, the right
practice, ethe tof the laws ef their teacestors, which by its tOletdlloll. Ile hail 111 r ‘‘aistt.-.1 attachineet of .titian was most steadfastly imaisted upset—
were intended to secure the Proteetaut Conetitu• for a number of Itoinaii Cathelics, whom he knew would the Nolde and Learned Lord say that this
lion. Strange doulds indeed they were. But lie as Individuals. lie would readily admit the stead- i light Sias the least constitutional of the whole?
should hose sooner heard cf the eliscovely of lough. fast lovalty and great claims of their 'ancestors— mid yet that Noble and Learned Lord was one of
t tole, even hi tho.e days a fresh iliscoveties in the he would admit them to their full share of ponrec- those who Intd ho objection to lay his unhallowed
operations of mental sagacity, than that it were tiara for the exercise of religiate, and haliOtir la the hands upon the rights of the 1 .1111 e, to restrict
possible to hold high judicial office, Lord Chum- cakes of the State, so fir as slat reteesion could be then) of their liberty, though lie could not listen to
cellos to wit, us the law new stood, without taking made compatible %sin' the pammount safety of the a may proposition which had for its object the con-
the oaths re quired by the Statutes of Charlie the Stele. Less he did not wish to da, snore he t mill tint. Istittiiional extrusion of their civil rights ! Was
Second and Kilig IV illiem—thut forsooth the les At .•is mils:owed toenail eat late, 111% 661611001's matter- Poiliament to he " ...stopped," to use the legal
deinnity Act would shield the takers of such oaths ed little with reference 10 their eruct upon him- term of the Noble and Learned Lord, frem exteed.
front the amuse epzeoCe or hitrm Liken (hi-111. Let self. lie lidt hini-ell bound inthat ing the bison s
tn a
of liberty, lay the tarovi-
sio such opinion prevail, th ma man can sit r
ims either he saw little silence of their beiea altered noel the sionista. the laws to which lie alluded ? The tiernla.
Muse of Parliameto, without previously qualifyong Church of (Leine gave a loritial mad soleinn comes- oency of the provisions of those laws was shaken
himself hav taking the necessary oaths. rr If Ilitre diction to those doetriiiss v.. hall Wrre
l' e,
be the Stilist-ainelat GleiS—their rr intangilislity" eves
be it Man in this House," sat his Lordship, " who ilaisgerous to the safety of tails community—al-es set ut rest by the Milne eritelion. The authority of'
has not taken those oaths, if I shall s err count him trines which lie could lint dwell oral ultlinsit b• ing (Lords and Venerable name had been resorted to
liardwirke's) to supptirt the Noble and
as one of your Lertldiips in a disision, let toe be sali•fied of their dangerous telidency upen the
ialpearlicrl, as I should deserve, for' that act."—) existing laws. Ile must, therefore, give hi- decided Leerned Lord's view of this question. To the
It was indeed said, that lawyers were disqualified uppositimi to the motion of the Nettle Lord. ductriaie leial 'loan by that great authority lie ex-
limn being gouil politicians, and that politiciatis Earl GREY coMmeneed hy stapes, Ilse he knew pressed his full igeo.ent. But lie was at a loss to see
a eic often mote accomplished lawyers than lawyers lint to w Isom the Nolan Led iti,auti to apply his the reason for the ietroductem of that authority at
aCC.4upli-licil looliticlaw., Lie this as it way, lie I °I/SCR-111011 of there being some lailltWISOS who j thiS liloilielit. The real question was maw, whether
would still continue to ley down to politicians what I fancied II.: anselves greet lawyers, ulthongli at the I the COIIOIIOI COOld with safety to the Constitution
he eneseientertele believed to he the 1 irs of the I Same time, they would not admit lawyers to be 1.9• ibe toltuttted to the enjoyment of those privileges
land—a loch was, nett every mats in the State owed liticiane. Ile eilanitt.rl Ilea lie had often l'earit i from which they were debarred by former laws,
allegiance to the King, 101 the acknowledged heed I that the technical habits of lawyers ielider..il theist enacted under 'rusticities circumstances? The re-
of the State—to speak in the old' lataguage of the unfit for taking an enlarged stew if a great 'oatmeal stall must lure upon Aye or No to that proposition.
law, that both " the spirituality and the laity " question. There were Institut-esti) which this had been The Protestant establishment, oil the principle of its
sawed him obeiliseee. The language of the old the (*use. Bid lie knew there were other installers top present basis, was funned at the Revolution. Some of
statutes was in a similar tone; for "the epiritti. which lawyers had appeared pet-eminent as pelt- the Acts passed helot-rand some after the Bei:Aural.
silty" was them subject to nobody, under God, tit:isms ; IRA ill Illetlitan the iestalice of else hailivi. aThe Corporratimi Art mid the Test Act were very
than his Majesty. It was historically admitted, dual (we ',rebottle ilr, Po 1111 l 'thy ), these star Ilea inittostant to shrw the object of the Legislature et
that at the time when those laws were enacted, there of another, is cently swept halm society (Sir Sa- the iime. The Test Act was directed ugainst the
existed many distinguished Cutholic families, whose roue) lionells). who war, (ale i'l Ilia grrairSt, the Duke of fork, the next heir to the Throne; it was
loyalty was indisputable; but the characters of best, mid most moieble men that ever existed— selected for tetuporel purposes, the necessity of
those families, high as they tu,doubtedly were, were I whose ktsow ledge of the 1.6 w, in the trimly of which Iwhich had for years ceased to exist. It was in the
yet instifficient to exruret them from the Illml-'lain a lie had beets waste, road of which lie was she [night- reign oh
the 30th Charlee 11. that Cetivileas were
of those penuities into which
Cr doctrine of their sat ornemenr, was only exceeded by los kuoaledge excluded from holding settle in the two Hoeses of
church had immersed them. Chief Justice ll.sle, of the Constitution, mid los ardent love iii liberty Perlistnetit. The, was the Act which the Noble
whose name would be remembered so longas law I KIM clitlaililed philanthropy for prontaltatig the gatori i and Learited Lord seemed to thick a measure of
i., their influence utnoi "witty, as- fir his rellOW.ereatUlTS-.-a Mao who atioliell llie lieu- dellherallife WI-dOlll Had prospective cement. If
and relieion held
serted, that the omit prescribed hy law, et and oilier lebOoli or the law. 111111 supplied it tan the Iwnetit of the Noble and Learned Lord could express his ma-
nse Itevolutioie included, as did Assays the oath of 1111111k11111,111111 WllO. 111 116 C midst of the toils of his atunialinsent sit certalti oirialions uponpoints of lam,
allegiance iii its proper bens?, the oath of frailty i legel studies, applied marl exercised his knowledge I hus
e nut excuse him (Earl Grey) front reseclinitig
mid a profession of homage. That oath, as II de in the elueidatem of the great in inciples of cavil p the expression of that ustonishinent at hearing
had aptly expressed it, did not create, but rtioin 1 bud relieions liberty.—(llear, hear, hear.,l-lle 14 lawyer of his reek uttribute the praise which
an obligation to renounce the Pope's doctrine of q (Earl Gar)) WWI ant there to discuss a question lie did to the Act of the 30111 of Charles
Supremacy, and restore the true and complete of law iii hthe Nolde mid Leareed Lord on the p the Second. 1)141 lie not know that than Act
doctrine of allegiance in its full and proper sense. %Voolsack, whit ae la-gal qualifications laid all. was pressed, mad j ustified, end carried, upon the
It was iirtjetdouti to date this doctrine to the time of thatily hie was most willing in admit. But io tilts apprehensions excited by the plots of Oates mud
Henry VI IL It was die doctrine ante common law I place, where a Peer had to decide upon mixed slues- 8e,11,1e, rat the ex ietelice of which no man cal the
of England at all dines. Lord Coke, in his Tree. turns at law Hod 1101.11.1 e s, Ike hail to deflend 111“111 poeseiat day belleved? That Act was founded upon
tise,upots the Laws of Eelwatd I 1 I. recites a statute iau the lights which tits own studies mad undeistaniling the belief ut the time in the scandalous plots of
which the Bishop of Norwich was cilhailied (end i famished him, and oil such occasions to speak both these wretches. After the Revelutiou, in the 3d
though lie was specilicailly named, the statute Was the Ida/ mot the polio) with that freealeani which be. p of I‘'illieni and Marv. Catholics were excluded
latitude(' for ull other Bishops) to keep iu reunsui. I came Legisletms alio were determitiell to dtscharge from voting at electimas. In the first elf George 1.
brance his duty, that all his authority was de. their duty to their country. Ile was, therefore, the Act ',weed tor disqualifying them from Intold.
rived from the common law or customs of the I prepared, notwithstanding his rest), et for the No- i leg civil and inihtary (Aces. 'l' he reason of this
land, or the statutes, and that lie must not for. a ble and Learned Lord's capitate' upon matters of phaw Ives, that a powerful party had afforded shelter
get his obedience to the Crown. This was the I Isis, to contest settle of the positions which he abroad to the family exiled Irani the lliroste.
old principle of the law, tied he should feel had laid down in the course el. iii, Speech. The I They had adliereot a boils in England and on the
ashamed of himself if le could for one ono- Noble and Learned laird had now, as on lair- COlllillelit. Besides this powerful combination
meat entertain u doubt upon its ,amity. God rues questions, set wit with demanding edmissi 111 l ti, of ciscuitistisoces, there was then among Pro-
forbid that lie should trench upon the right whir Ii whim 11, If acceded to, put an rod to the whole tines- testanta, what there war trot 110W+ a general belief
in this free country every men had to worship his lion. Ile lius told the I louse that they must Hank I that Catholics held unsocial doctrines, which the Ca.
God iii his own way ! but there was a wide differ- the Comae utioa to he fuoilimentelly and elowl;. tholics of the present day had hang since disclaimed.
race between this spirit of toleration, and the eon- hilly Protestent, anal that every thiug whielt hail '1 lie circutioomices that had culled fur the measures
(erring a civil right which went to seeder all the a tendency to t-tal mo,iCh 111/1,11 the slimes:navy of of which the !Llamas; Catholic* now justly mane.
laws of their ancestors nugatory. Sat long as the that church, must ha. protested ageinst as owe- I plained, had long since ceased to operate—there-
Catholics denied, as by their doctrines they did, pedietat and madanissail.• h Ile omild cuseetill that fore, lie contended, that those Penal Laws were
the King's supremacy, so 101 l did they disentitle I the Noble and Leursied Lord haul hot deafly no longer sieceseely, awl there could not he
themselves to the phi
privileges they claimed. The lead theta awl exidanied alert ware in fact the 111, the butanes' jet of dengev apprehended to the
Noble and Le lied 11,or) sin quota cl the opinion testaist establishment. To come to a lee-rise ult. Throne from their lepeal. The reasons which iis-

(Need their ancestors to adopt tlatn, did tint et
present urge their continuance-and the same
policy that established the Revolutioo on general
principles of freedom, required that that freethon
slintild be extended to the Catholics, with respect
to whom a system of exclusion was no longer sue-
cessary, and therefore was most unjust and inv.
jorions. In the history of the enactment of some of
those laws, feelings woolillse found to hove operstee,
of a character very different front thugs which
were adverted to by the Noble and Learn:l Lord;
There was au Act passed in 1699, of the most severs
description, the history of which might serve 10 Phew
the iiieccuracy of what the Learned Lord stated
with respect to the calm and delib-rate wisdom
which always marked the enacting of these Lose
In 1699 a law was passed, which prevented tithe.
lies from taking property by devise Of by purchase.
Now lie called ou their Lordships to mark the tem-
per and spirit in which that law was enacted-a lei
%shoal, et that time, formed one of the securiiies nt
Ilie Constitution, and which, if the Learnisl
argument were good for oily thing, mind lie tdkeii
as part or that fundamental settlement which ea,
then establisl.ed. What did Bishop nureet ray
of the wormer in which this law was passed'
" Those," he observed, " who brow; ht the Bill
into the Ulonse of Commons, booed the Court
would oppose it ; the Court, however, (I.liii-tolitig
nn the hostility of the Lords, acceded to It. -
‘l'llen the projectors of the measure eta, their
mistake, they ensiled In stifle it, and Met 1111(1111
it with unreasonable clinses, in the hope that
the Lords would not agree to it. Tile The,
lippwever, passel! the Lords, without rumiaimeio,
their Lordships being piqued at the ciiiiilii• t of Ili.:
Commons." Speaks.;; of this transaction, Mr.
Burke said, "Thus were the CAliolica ("adellsith
&pulite injustice, proceeding from two parries-
who, as If they were merely playing with cuter
and balls, nude a sport of the hues and f a-
tones of their fellow-subjects." They eere
boand, therefore, to take, with a little caution,
the ussertirm of the hearse d Lord, that thus- laiis
were careltilly aial deliberately cousidered ; Cast.
Lercl•hips could not, lie conceived, consistently
with their knowledge of this fact, give to ',taw.,
Wild, were enacted in this way, all the weight
which the Learned taunt %virtual to he attisched to
them. Toe great objection to the Roman Catlioliea
arose from, Ist, a rupoosed connexioti of the Catho-
lic religion with an attachment to that family
which alarmed the thintie-aud ld, a belief that
particular tenets in that religion were um Only hos-
tile to all free governments, but were at variance
with the very existence of society itself, and, there.
fore, were not to be tolerated. He would umitelet,
that there causes did not now exist-and, when the
circumstances which gave rise to that jealme.y or
suspicion in the minds of their ancestors,
aloite could warrant such enactments, had ceased,
it was the height of injustice to contioue laws,
the ticemasily for which did not exist. 'ft,
Learned Lord had quoted the audio. its of Mr.
Locke in support of his urgument, and the
sani-
course bad been pursued by a Rev. Prelate ;the
Bishop of Worcester), who preceded lam. Bill he
bad been ro completely answered by Ida Noble
and Learned Friend (the Bishop of Norwich), who,
in Ins opinion, and in the opiitioti of mill unbiassed
men, did honour to himself, and conferred a be-
nefit on the religion which lie professed, by the
mild, and tolerant, and consequently Chrisiian•like
view which he took of this subject, that he need
scarcely take up their Lordeliios' time liv
observation on the subject. Yet lie raiuld not for-
bear making our remark on what had What fsom the
Learned Lord, when lie quoted M . Locke'• au-
thority, in favour of those extilissions. 1V heii :he i
Learned Lord cited that great arson's opinion is I
support of exclosioos, wined: were media to defend
the religious establishments of this country, tits
he prepared to mho the whole of his tortilios.
(tinier opinions which lie had studied so diligetitly),
with respect to religions estatalislittients, generally
It' lie would go so fir, then he (Earl (arey) setald
trimly to the Iteverend Bstich opposite-so
nume-
rously arrayed, to join, this night, as lie fear-
ed, to purporting the prisciples of the Learn-
ed Lord-end lie would ark them, did they also
hold the same -terititneats ? He believed they
would answer in the negative. Next, when 'lie
Learned Lord cited this grave opinion in bivour
the exclusion of the Catholic., lie would ask, sits
be ready to adopt Mr. Locke's opinion us iii their
religium ? The belief of Mr. Locke, of Lord
Somers, and of other great men, et the time of ilia
Revolution, was easily accounted for-and, lie Inn'
no doubt that they acted from a conscientious feel-
ing. But did the Learned Lord mean to proles.,
at this day, that there were any Catholics, $$ ho main•
tensed the opinion that faith was nut to be kept with
heretics-that Piinces, excommunicaieii by the
I'ope, forfeiter! their Crown -or that the Pape could
discharge (tom their allegiance, the siiiriects stf
Princes who had refused to adhere to the Coisiiic re-
ligion? Did the Learned Lord In !iris that Hoy mei:
Catholics were now in existeoce Ile khra that !.e
could not declare so moostrous aii
Mon to which experience gave the most decal,.
contradiction. The Leerited Lord slated, that I:.
had not heard from any competent entholity m nir
Church of Rome, a roll:arm diselititner of ihiesi
opinions. What disclaimer would he have ? The r
uptowns were denied by the Romeo Cetholi,•
themselves-by the oaths which the Legislate, •
had imposed on dorm-and by ,he declaratiiiii
the principal Catholic I:invert:dies. The es.- •
ence of those opinions was the ground oil wits'
the principles of Mr. Locke were founded-
and, sit, he, in every part of his works, promos
gated the most geoetal principles of tulenoisii
—as lie advocated, 10 the fullest extent, Its
right to a fire and culiecientious discharge of re
logo:rub duties-his authority was, in fact, feint's''
file to the cause of the Roman it.:
war it favourable ? Because the grounds oil whi"
the exception with resirect to the Rionau
proceeded, laded altogether at the present
and failiog, the exception itself most fall to Is,
ground. Therefore, lie felt that he
41001 C the geio-ral principles of Mr. Locke
nit G
sour of time 'present motion. Tiw Learned laird !"'
viewed, to the most extraordinary light, the
rein authoritter to which he had referred. to •
priticiples of the Revolution, in the Bill of 1t,61t"
in the Act of Settlement, he could God
nit luny
favour of liberty-brit, in the laws substtpeeti:
passed, he could find various reasons fur a rite:"

,lailon. So, in :qr. Locke'* work ulion Toleration. 1
re could perceive nn general principle that could
i!..,14 their Lord lops—but he could discover the
ee,glat and value of that particular exception which
ess intended to justify them in excluding the Ce-
Cialmee from the benefit of the Conetitutton. In
the work of Mr. Locke, who perhaps did inure than
sae other man ever performed to dispel the loud.
I.ferror, Bud to let in the light of truth oti tie Iw-
,,f
mind, the Learned Lord could see no ar-
gument favourable to the Roman Catholic., el-
/hough they appeared clear BA palp illlkt tO others.
lithe Learned Lnttl could lint, a speck that savoured
of haettlity to the Catholics—if lie could perceive a
(I,,tofill point, which, he thought, made for hi*
areument—he seated himself on it with delight.
„,,,l boasted, that, in an author, generally
*imposed to be favourable to liberty, lie
boil discovered something which Militated imgainst
eme eleims of their Catholic fellow-subjects.—
Ile (Eel Grey) would argue, that the authority of
Locke, in elate of his sentimenta at the Revolution,
pass in vour of the motion proposeo their Lord.
sham th;' night—and that those olinod xitona laws were
ema to be considered as forming fundamental parts
m l the settlement, but as accidents anteing from
liatientar causes, wine!" were 00 longer ill being,
*,mill therefore, could no longer be fairly (looted in
oceluat of such a system. The Learned Lord had
end, it ace impossible for loin to distinguish be-
te...el opir•tual and temporal obedience—and yet,
erre were parts of the Leerned Lord's speech
in
elide he shined to admit such a distinetiou.
Ile St3lrel, tI.III a difference of that kind wals es.
tshhshtd I.ICVIOU% to the time el Henry N. II I.
.—tlett it vas, in fact, the common law of the
a!oulary, if such were the case, then the COM-
mon law tnimst have been admitted by their
Catholic eta:esters, under a Catholic Goer, lament.
arpeerr,l, that an obedience to the !lend of the
Church and an obedience to the Ilead of the Go.
aere quite compatible with each other. ;
If the leen-teal Lord looked to the oath prescribed
le tem. Kmatiiiim Catholics by the Act of 1793, he
woo:,I perceive that It distinction was made be t wren
civil elactlience to the Sovereign, and spiritil II (dee-
tu the !lead of the Conch—the latter welm,
1:i Testae-al in the most express terms. If tut
objection were mode to this distitictioo, it won;,!
he
towel to wieldy with equal, if tint grinder force, tai
CAL !he Gavernmente. Ile said, "it not greater
force," bet arse, where the Romen Catliolme reli-
gion yes that of the State, disputes were fir more
likely to 'wee between the. Head of the State
and time Iliad of the Church. rot matters of a
Tenggara; vat ore, than where the Sot ere igo teas
Protestant, nod a pertion of Imis eideject. ere
Catholic, praying a vied obedience to him nod
spiritual obedience to the Mead of their Clint( h.
They bail known attempts to have been made by
different Popes to extend their power over temporal
as well as spi•ittial matters. The EmPerore of
Gerttrany, the Kings ot France, and the Monarchs
of this camittitry, had waged tiara tin this very sub-
ject--but he never yet heard lino this divided obedi-
ence, which the Li trued Li)rtl conceived to be see
dangerous, had produced the direful effects that
he lomat &orta-al. This divided allegoitice hail not
iutluttd the subjects of culoohe Goverono-ifib to
own time lareer of the Pope. If they looked
to the Imi•tory of their own country, they would
find, that no alas munition hall been eltewn, in remote
and trviableoette times', to 'Joey the titaildate. amf the
Pope. lo the reign of Edward I. when that Mo-
narch was VrOCtedill!' e.slie(11,1011 to Scot.
1411(1 i.e was called on by the Pope to place his
cause ill the heads of the see of Rome. Ile te",ect-
eel, with d:. the interferetmee of time Pope ;
and, %Len he laid before the Barot.e of the realm,
au aceommt of the course lie had pursued, they ap-
plauded lis conduct, end declared th it it was
against the dignity of time Crown of England,
against i's Imberty mind law., to sutler the interfere
ellee of a forrien power with the internal policy or
the kingdom!. Neither," said they ern' hawed-
ly, " do vet., nor will we, on; can we, our ought
vie, admit such an interfereore--and, if teen time
Prince were desirous that we should bow tee it, we
feel, as freetnep, that we <mold, in that case, to
oppose I.is ill."—( I fear, heir.)—here civil obe-
dience was divided lapin that of n spiritual—and,
lie conceived, that this portiou of English liistory
"11'1'10.4 refuted the am gunteut of the Learned
Lord. It acs ufierwards notified to Edward I. that
the Erie! erimr of Germatiy anal the Rmtig of 1 ratter
admitted he tight of the Pope to decide the pun t
at
issue. " I t," answered Edward, "the Patin-tor and
the Fiend, Ring reponse the quarrel or the l'opr, I
tin rtatly 10 give battle to both for the nisintenetice
of my Crown." This (enntioued Earl Grey)
wan
• pretty conclusive proof that the Nlonarch was
perfectly convinced that the opinion of hi. eubjeeta
was inimeiGet accordance with his own. The
Learned herd must know, that Act, of I li 'aria:tient
were expreesly passed tit diffetent periods to limit
the potsrr of the Pope, anal to reatat tiny attempts
at crew tog a great influence iii civil mitliirs. lit the
reign of Iletiry I. the Statute of Proviemals was
passed—in that of Richard 11. the Statute of
r'reniummime was enacted—to the subsequetit reigns
of Henry IV. Iletiry N'. mind Henry 'VI., in•
deed, iii all times down to the Reformation,
they would find that care was taken to resist ant.
encroachinetits of the Pope aim the temporal power
of the Sovereign. Nut only the Nobles of liar
realm resisted such encroaeltinetits, but it would
he found that even the Prelates of the 1110111:111 Ca-
tholic y.1011131.i11il were ideamlfest in then" oppel..
lion. From all three circumstances, it was clear
that a spilitu.l and a temper ml obedience could
exist, iialleptaideut of eat It otliet ; and when time
Leartiecl Lind soul that Roman Catholics could
not obey time Pope ill spiritual matters—matte's
purely kith, anal doctrine tiliconnecteal with
temporal concerns—he mast decidedly conteimd
that the umeenotent was utterly and totally untenable.
All laistoml—atl experiettee—ro• eatiction of the
oaths taken by the Catholic s rteauselves—the doc-
trines which they avowed--the titompearlied and
ardent and zealon* loyally which
au dietinguished their
livee, alio:tied a complete, unatiewerable,
splendid refutation of an t.hicit the Learned Lord
had adsatice 41 against their el:Amason this evening.—
During, the reigns of Catholic Princes dowel to the
110 di pusiuuua*hewn to blend
this sort of spiritual allegiance to the Pope, with
that temporal übealieoce which tier Learned Lord
laud spoken of, lit the time of Elizabeth, not-
withotandu g the severity of the laws enacted

ug Mist the. Catholic', the bloody Otte pawer, in order to defeat th it loch
executions to which they were them subjected, he I was their right, the Legislature converted them Moo
never heard that their general disposition was oil- a eeoarete class, and 'reeled them as a leafy
favourable to the title of that Princess, di-prated ). 'lenge ~,,, sin the established Government of the
as it was liy the I'ope, Mho levelled at it all the country. Yee, the Legislature hail. given them
thundery of the Veticelo, and objected to as I greet plower; lout by It singular system or unpolicy,
it was by the greatest Cathodic Pritice of that toostred of attotelting them to the State by a coin-
',prim'. Twit Prince had lined the opposite shore inanity of interest—instead of fixing them to the
with troops—he lied eniburked an immense army t'overiontent by the bonds of affection—they were
MI hoard, what was called the Inviertible Armed i, irrnied as a separate class, whom it was dangerous
which way inteiWledto dispossess Elizabeth of her to trust too far. The Noble Earl then proceeded
throne. Yet at that moment the Catholics eltrotik, ito examine the nature of the mot then before
not from the duty which they roved to their come. their Lordships. He approved of the extent to
try—they attempted not to recover what they had I which it went, that of considering the whole sultr-
iest, nor to revenge the injuries they had suffered— i ject ; and though some Noble Lords might not wish
their faith Hui loyulty remained ttioshakeio awl to go the whole length embraced by the motimo,
from a noble sense of duty they defended to Go- lie conceived that if relief could be grstoted even out
veriomeet which they knew was 1111911 VA In them, i points apparently of minor importance, it would be
becau•e it was the Govern nem tif their enutotry. well to entertain the proposition. The Noble Earl
the evils mild the dangers of Etizibelli's reign were I argued at some letigth, to :thew that an ulteratom
not increased by any detimsitimo on the part of the laright be matte in the different deeleretimie direct-
Catholic.; to add a ironwood to the spirituel tube- I et' to be subscribed by Members of Parliament.
dience which they conceil al to the Pope. The and individuate taking different offices, se as to
Learned Lord next proceeded to II e articles of the me-t the conscietotions feelings of the 'tomato Ca-
! Ultimo with Scotland, which, he observe'', stilet. Booties, as well as to )notify the conduct of the Pro-
Lited that the Protestant re;igion was to be establish- testionta themselves, many of whom lie believed hutt-
ed as the religion of the State. This, he ndinitted— I scribed those declarations without having at till con-
but when lie quoted the Union with Ireland, he, totally tittered the subject* to which they related. Ile reciil-
denied his assertion. It was there said that the heated oil a f ;toner occasion. a Noble Lord distinctly
Church tot England, as by Ine estabiNlietl, should I stated, that because the 'tomato Catholics
Ibe maintained us (lie religion of the Stare ; but lie fel in transub..tootiattoo, the invocation of Saito*,
I esker!, wet there one word in the articles tif Unties and its the sacrifice of the Mass, that they a ere
Ithat sanetioned the idea of the peon:timid exclusion not therefore to he excluded from civil rights.
of the Cathol:rs from the great privileges or the I The Greek and Russian Churches also agreed
rot
IBritish Constitution? Not a sited could he retool in I these opinions ; is, therefore, they were ionsocent
ill
those artorles to justify the doctrine or exclusion ; c themselves, why coottitme obnoxious declarations nu
hut, on the coterary, if lie real them right, a Vety ?—why should every Member of hello
I different interpretetion was to lie tinown from them. Ili:rises be obliged, before lie took his seat, to c
Ile believed that they wool.' find in those article, e to the title and denounce transubstantiation. the
I Datong ground fir eupposing that hits Majesty'. invocation of the Virgin Mary, and the sacrifice of
Mtnisters, who framed the Art, not only hail not the mess, why should they be called on to dentomi-
I made up their niiials II) contiolue this system of nate these doctrines ?—why should they
exclueen, lint a 'dually contemplated thee.- very 1w obliged tosion an intolerant dogma?—why
should
no of relief which had since been proposed— they be coal, t- Heil to attribute degrading piticiples
(Bear. hear, hear)—those measuie, winch, seven- to others, when in very few instances throe princielee
ti teen years after the Urine., the Calliolice were I were ex-omitted or understood—(//ear) —e• loy,
still contentling flot—thiise intatetres, by the belie I otbeve shout I they Set thus when no ii•to-
; mid et:ipo modem of i ITet tiug which the Catholics I ger could be pointed out ?—why did they not,
were Petered to siipoort and hiring about that very its conhotantty with the spirit of the boles, free
I Otto Winded by Over exp. chanson., they sticri- themselves from the humiliation or so locroleng
I lief 11 tliat Leeislat tor. leo lio-e corruptions well de- to such deeleeeiont ? A Noble lore oil the crust
' served the rate which artetided ; loot which ho Wall I benefit het quoted the °puttee of Doctor Mdoter,
if it had roiatinto:„ and become indeed I and the I....tuned Lord aho followed him had elm
the itidepetident Pailiaturtit or lodate', It would cited the authority of that individual. But he
have certiell into t fleet long before tins time. the must here pretest sidernrily sogamst ally quotatitot
objects which wutn held out to the 'tomato (.7atlitre of the views or feelings or Deet), Milner, with it
I Ire, es the great bait and temptation in iiiduce them I view to itilleence their conduct in legislating oil this
! to siipport the Union. It was stated, is) the 4th j apt !tenni. 'they must legislate on the principle of
Hanle of the thine., '' that no permii looldiog giving to the ('edoolics what they felt it was right
roods afire sir place stein:d he o-f the Itomin i for them to concede, and not with rei.rence to the
Cetholic religion, and that tie person or that reli- claims urged. or the opinions set tip by any Otiti-
s:inn slionfil be capable of being el:tatted to sit in i virtual. The Noble Earl conilemeed, ill strong
the Ilou-e or Commons, until the Pottiailielit (Ti i terms, the cottree adopted by l)r. Aliih er, who, at
the United Kingdom should titherwtse provitle."-- one time, advocated principles the very reverse
(:!ear, hear.,)—So far then from the Unimo with of those he latterly professed. The Noble Lord
: I rel inJ having debarred. the Dense front repeatiog,, oft the cross-trench declared, that he was inclined to
• 'mirth less I examining those obinixious acts and I favour the ultimate success of the qiiestion, but moot et
declaretioes, it was expressly held out by the 4th ar- present—atid whirled at present? because Dr.:Milner.
title us a sulojeet o:1 which provision might he in a spirit of itotemperance for which he could not tic-
made at a I'llllle tiiiie. It was well known that Minis.. count, unless from some private motive of his own,
tees hurl, in fact, further measures ill crootemplation, wishing to prevent the measure of emancipation
lett not hiring alile to carry I hem, iilthough they from being carried into effect, had expressed lent-
! hail given a plrs.ge at the period of the littiots self in that way which had created so much at , i 11l ad-
that they slinuld be affected, they found it meet- version. For his own part, every argument he
1 sm.y to it-lime 111111 tare. wiirsi it emir :wed impost,- 1 heard proved the necessity of adopting this measure
to. li:e for I to redeem their promise.—(l/ear, I without delay, and lie felt thst, if their Lortlehips
hear.)—This Leith .aid that tie Roman I meant to mention the position which this countay
Catholics etij.oril their religion in perfect rrelirliV, new occupied as a great enipire, they would agree
end iii it their extt'otiett limn office was out to he to the proposition that was made this night.—
I comidered as a halal-hip, since what was now de- ( I leas, hear.)
Hied. them was ain Ater tot ptiliey. The Noble. 'flue Earl of 1.I•ERP001. took the line of ergo-
;Earl here entered Into a refutatioto of these doe- i mem on which the Lord Chancellor triad dilated
iiittes, and erguell that even allowing danger to he at so much leiigth. The quettion really was, whir-
tile admission of Catholics to I tiler the Romeo Catholics should be admitted to
j oilier, still Iteihing to their relative number as come I Parliament, to the Privy Council, and to crown
Irued to the %hide population of the United Httie- other great offices? lie contended that they could
Itheo, that danger never could he considered formula- not without ion abrogatiou of the Protestant Con-
o hale. To colle to a different coedit:eon, they lionst ate totem ill Church atoll State ; even if the
I suppoo, thirst the Catholics were stopeiiiir to the Pre- Claims of the Catholic', were admitted, it would
I testants in namberoto primped), and in talent—they not be useful to the great body of that pertma-
Imust go further, and be convinced that the Mio- sloth Some few most respectable ROlll3ll Ca-
narch would be will og to favour them—they inii4 tholic Nobleoneu asol Gentlemen wooed be bens-
; proceed even beyond that, awl give way to the iiwi- fitted by it, but the Catholic peasantry or Ireland
ginatirei that the King would be placed entirely would not derive any advantage from the girt,' toys-
; out at the control of Parliament. Titter more too- tem. Ile would still have to pay his tithes to the
tenable prupontion, could not be ituagtord. If the 'tomato Cathodic mill to the Protestant clergyman,
taut hoot of his Noble netted should he carried, It mild the contests on the one side to scud Itoman
would give the Catholic, eligibility to till offices of Catholic :Members to the House, and mi thus uther
trust and power. And here hr would say, without to setel Protestant Members, would trod to distract
the rear of contradiction, that eligitehty to oliiite instead of pacifying that country.
was it civil tight, of which they could not be de- I The Minquis of LANSDOWN, in an eloquent
prived without the grossest injustice; unless I tweed), which we regret the lateness of the hour
those who opposed them could shew that a great I does not reable tot to give, supported the 'melon.
dastger existed in their admissiisit to littzli situations j The Earl of NVESTMOULAND, at great length,
iii cotont►ato with their Protestant fellow-subjects.— opposed the motion. The Noble Lord allud.d
He had been endeavouring to sliew that no such I to the measute which some time 'Mite was to-
danger could be apprehended—but whirl' he stated troduced into Parliament, for the avowed relief or
that this eligibility wus a civil right sacred in all ► the Homan Catholics, but, althongh the Bull then
''rat' Gurerwin`lits. °l'd to the free j framed was drawn up on the most careful view
(Lives iimetit of Englatid, he felt tioat those who de- I of the subject. sin, by men of the minion tu„
rived them of it dill the Catholics to grist out injury lent and integrity, this measure was considered
—au injury of which they lied io right to complain by the 'tuition Catholics its a Bill or pain. end
;most bitterly. Ile fouteled not their chinos oil right, penalties, and the clergy, in particular, declared,
it was a (Proton to be decided with reference to they would sooner lay down their lives than
the iiitereats of the Siete. it were necessary that submit to it. This lie mentioned, to skew how
the public surety called for an abridgment or cur- estieniely difficult, if toot impossible, it was to
tailment of their rights, the Legislature were Justi- conciliate the 'loosen Catholics, without, at the
tied in imposing reoroctiona; but they could not j same time. alarming the Prutestoitsts. He con-
ttut tail or abridge any subject of flint country oft ceived, imbeithstandang the opinions expressed on
his civil right—they could out justilieloly do so mo. Ithe opposite side. that the present moment was very
I. ors clear proof were given of the danger winch I unfavourable for a consideration of this question.
menaced the Conetit mime, if they adopted a differ- Ilia opinion was founded first, Olt the conduct
eta course. It lied !Writ Said that these disabilities i of the Cetheltev themselves, the very violrot
did not itemise tiny melees hardship; but could may tnalnirr ill which .hey received the bonus
uttered
onr eetiously moot, that the eligibility which 1 them by Parliaments and which were approved
enabled a 111:11I in the lowest situation of life to fill lof by many sincere friends to their truer. Ile
the highest offices et the State, if he had ability to 'night venture to affirm, that in no Protestant
rai-e him to such a situations which, to a certain t country in the world were the Miami Catholics in
deerre, gave the same ooporttinity to the humblest so favourable a condition as they were torte:toed to
subject es to the highest Peer—conlol it be lien- I he placed in chits country by the Bill el !triter.
touchy usserted, he asked, that such a right was of I The ercutel Iloilo lie would oder to was the coot-
ie) velue ?—(lirae, hens.)— But, in point of fact, duct of the Cathodic clergy, and particulutly of
the Legielelure had giro power to the Catholic's,— the higher classes. NVllat was the mature rat the
they were allowed to sote at tlectione—they might A relemlitop of Met blue's appeal, and of Father
hold lands by devise or purchase—they might en- oti,„,l„iphyo, writing,. which were in !tome the.
rich themselves by trick and cutionerce—they clotted to lie worthy or being placed in cedar end
might exercise them talents ort the bar—and thus guild ? 'rlie next circumstance which would prevent
!become men of toote and truth 111 l ity binoogst thew is cool coostderattroll of this iliteStion was the e-estd.
fellow-subjects. But having (migrated en them all 1 blisbiucutof wi_ I: the d
er or Jesuits, mid the persecu-

tiges of die Cuttsliiution,bitt Ilse means of t
Iliot could he becertained may by going into .1 ic-
mittee. flecould not see how the balmy of a
einglr
Protestant could be eiol.itirred by rxieildii.c I l e ri.
vil rights of the Cot holies; he, therefore,
sin liesittitinn in granting cv-ry immui.dy to 1,,e
Csilioltes, with t !Noir tlg. tiny Pectinty utottett:.
Strangers wrre lltrn Orlierra to withdraw, awl t he
[Love divitl,4l. Torre spitetireti—
CONTEST 4. NON-CONTENTS.
Present 7O Pfesent 1.7
Pluxita sts

11.111 of the Piotteaute :on;
Ile believed that the iCtlitlet• of the Poor:giants
of Irelaud were wholly tinchingiol isis this sub-
j •ct, and what the
Peelings
of the people of
Kole:mil were, might be uscertai:ted by the num-
her of petitions on the table. When the clingy,
however, exitretwed their opinion, their Petitiotts
were semi: et' by Noble Lords oil the opposite
side. If tliev spoke, they were C ; if they
were silent, their Itilruce was CoO•loIrret1 U. actitsies-
(Toler ; 4i) that they did not kitow what to do. This
titte,tion, Ile believed, was fir froth being popular is
this coutitry, and such he riot:it:ll asc a 1... tltt: (ups-
Moto of Noble Lords opposite. Tile 41111i.11, was
brought forw ird every year except tone, whets
a certain powerful Gorernment thought proper to
keep it back. But why was it kept back on the
very eve of it popular election ? Vs hat au excel-
lent opportunity bitch a subject 115154 t have afforded
In a certain class of statesmen to declaim upon to..
lerution and then with their Whig prior pies on
oar side, and their support of the Catholics
ou the usher, they might have not the people
with wonderful advantage. The Noble Lords
and their assistants in ittlittllCt place, however, were
silent us mice—( A laugh/—and popular as the
qtre•tiou was sitilpOSP(l to he, how dal it happen,
by some fatality, that notwithstanding the boast of
the late g °raptor intisority, too me 4514 were devised
for letting the public know who rootlet' that glori-
ous mitiority. Ile alluded to what h4l fallen from
a Learned Prelate, that England had the reproach
of tint extending the rights of fire worship MIS far
as the other tuitions of Europe. This he be-
leved not to be founded in fact. But admittiog
that every country in Europe, A b tea, Asia, and
America, had acted in such a istamier as the Noble
Prelate desired, still nnul those countries frt.Cllll..
ElC,lttfid 611111 Itel4lid, the analogy would tint
hold. I)id those commies contain two hierarchies,
each assuming religious power ? they contain its
every parish, priest against pules!, our its itteco•ssion
of wealth, un.l Ilse other of poverty ?—dal they
contain one million of one religion enjtoptg the
principal wealth or the country and the (Atwell
eatablishment, and four milltons looking for these
possessions? unless such st state ofrilfairs were shewts
to exist lit those coutitries, no analogy could be
established. lie denied that concession a odd of
tircessity produce conciliation ; for were 'lot the
great emicessions formerly granted to the Catholics
followed by a violent mid sallguitiary rebeliion ?
He observed, that Mr. Pitt was a very sting tool
determined friend of the Ration Catholics i but
he, poor man !—(Laughter)--iiiit being gifted
with the powers of prophecy, required trot only
Annie •ecurities for Ilse defroce and protection of
the Protestant church, but even that the entices-
*ions should be consistent with the general feelings
of die people. Feeling that the preaent was not
a limper time for the agitation of this question, he
should vote against the motion.
Tie Earl of CARNARYON protested against the
principle that the House should decide on the ques-
tion of Catholic emancipation before they deter-
mined whether they should go Otto a Committee.
He thought the objection to a Committee came
with a singularly ill grace from his M ijrstv's Mi-
nisters, who loot. during the present Session, dele-
gated every ID atich of the EXtl'llliVe lower to COM,.
Mittel.% of Parliament. The objecthiti to admitting
Kumar CathOlies into places of civil trust dud power
was equally untenable after the army and navy had
heels opened to their ambition. The inillary pro-
fession had beets made free to the Roman Catholics,
and yet apprehensions of their fidelity were affected
to be felt when the question arose reverting their
admissibility to civil offices. After some further
ribservatious, the Noble Earl declared that lie would
vote for the Committee.
The Duke of Nt.reLioNGTON said, that the whole
question was, what degree of security should be
given to the church of England, as established in
Ireland, in the event of conceding to the Catholic
Claims? He observed, that the Reformation had
beets originally tatabliahed in Ireland, not by a
general conviction of the truth of its doctritie:4, but
by the sword ; and the opposition it met with was
followed by confiscations and penalties. All this
was repeated at the Revolution, and was still fresh
in the minds of the inhabitants of that country.
influence of the priesthood over the people was
fostered by the remembrance of those events, sod
the idea of unmerited and mutual suffering; and
no doubt could he entertaitted. from their pre-
sent feelings, that if the Molitor Catholics were ad-
mitted to the enjoyment of political power, their
first exertion would be to restore their religiots to
its original supremacy. He observed, that in every
other country in Europe the Pope hail conceded
by treaty to the respective Sovereigns the tight of
nominating the Bishops, reserving to honsell no-
thing but spiritual investiture. So it was in France,
where the Government having seemed to 'Oros a
peaty too favourable to the Papal Power, it was al-
most compelled by the feelings of the people to
alter it. In such proceeding% ilw Governments
were uniformly Supported by the people ; but look
to the conduct of the people of Irelattdl under simi-
lar circumstances. ‘‘'hen you talk to the people of
Ireland about taking away this power fount the
Pope, they look upon it as an attack ton their na-
tional independence. Did this arise from the peo-
ple of Ireland having a less clear idea of notional its-
dependence than other people ? No ; but they felt
that if the Executive Power possessed nisy con-
trol over the appointment of the Roman Catholic
111,111.1,6, some security would be thereby obtain-
ed for the Protestant Church. Ile commented
then on thrill/111e of appottoing I{OIIINO Crltholie
Bishops in Ireland, and tetiwked, that eveti its tile
case of domestic nomination there existed Ito vontrial
in the Executive over the c loci of their Bishops.
'phis was contrary to the usual practice of the
State. fur thrfC was no Officer whatever oil whom
the only bond was that of an oath ; there always
existed some superior to whim, lie was accountable,
Hod even some responsibility attached to those by
whom i.e was am tttttt ted. 'llt.s would not Ise the
case woh regard to the Catholic Bishops of Ireland.
Alter a few fist titer othervottoits its the saute effect,
the Noble Duke basil lie should vote against the
motion.
The Earl of DARNLEY said, the Noble Doke
had commie-red the quiet as if it aerie of tot
rctleoistical rather than a a CIVII Mature. It would
be highly desirable to woody the 111111411. of the Pro-
trstattis with securities, while the Etonian C•tholics
were adissotrd to a full participatioss in the 'Wain-

106

NI rjorily pgainst the motion

Adjourtird.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, MONDAY, MAY 17.

A perm!) from the Office of the Secretary of State in Ire-
land presented real:tin Papers relative to the isatae....l
Un
Cushult, liolulortost in that past of the United I,:m4.ltini,
which were !mil oat the table.
DI IMP-CF..
Clitherow's Divorce BM was read the third time and
passed.