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London, England, 1821-03-29 00:00:00

necessary to ask the Catholics for securi-
at all ; his opinion had always been, that
ads securities were unnecessary. Bot tid-
ing that, for the ease of Protestant minds,
✓ securities could he demanded and given,
they up other seeurities than those stipu-
1.. iu the Bill Were Honourable Gentle-
aware of the 'Attire of those securities I
y amounted to highly penal clauses; the *e-
-1 Bill, he repeatedit, was one of highly penal
Ns. and besides that, it was aboard in its
rivonce--it yielded no security at all. lie knew
many Mao supported the Bill were of this
He bad conversed with persons of intelli-
ce nut of doors, having no interest whatever in the
• who admitted all this. They avid, " Yes, tis
atiat: the clauses are, highly penal, and must he
naive to the Roman Catholic Clergy, as well as
ig wholly unavailable for.security ; hut however
NI, objectionable, or futile they may be, let
u pans, au.d the wisdom and liberality of the
:islature in a Session or two will certainly re-
al thein."( Hear, hear,frons Mr: Peel and 111 r.
is.p•—ift would be sorry to prevent the passing
i measure which had already gone. to the ad-
atm' that the.Catholte nobility and gentry were
ilabeto at in Parliament; bat as to the second
1, be must beg leave first of sill to observe, that
the clauses attached to the clergy. Were Floss.
Itle men aware of the importance of those clauses ?
st there came a computeery enactment, requiring
ry, Catholic clergyman to take an oath, an
arse Pero arrangement to all clergymen at pre-
! in orders, and a penal one to all who should in
are be ordained. He wished them to give his
to example to prove that he was authorised, mist
miter of Parliatnent, to say to any man, " Here'
at oath, which. it you do not take, however ob. •
now.liale it may he to you, you shall be punish.•
with (th. Committee would determine which)
asportatiou for lifsur , perpetual inspriso ttttt ent :
other words. erishwalioost the: highest penalty
Mill to the lass." He :Trio asked, was there.
r. law which compelled any oilier persons to take
ostir of any kind. except the oath of soprentscy..,
I versa then the. parties were not compelled to
the oaths There were tests proposed at that
- *ha astaftr•House, before the Members
t!il take their feats, were not Coln•
tied to take oaths.. The)/ inig%t say. that they
uld not takeilitin. and rather refuse, to take
!ir 'eats than take them. This antslie case with
.Bists.lish• Catholic Peers. who were only we-
tted from taking their webby their
to taking the patlislenuirrd.,.. There :were many-,
tilitcet of colowietitioste:perev4o, .Quakers fos
Lance, wrottiel rather forfeit thzir civil right.
in bike:ally with nt He know a very re-.
wwwkle per.ou, r 11rplestant, . rho. would foregehi
y tempos, ."llsl.kalitC.l!usher thatt:tokeram ens&
us person had losts .psitulaty. of bare It. nototosellialks
ns shietsgh.. occident. consumed by, fire. • Tht
guamik‘efstbe erntee•were -known, and •
.(Mr. C.-Hatc)rinson) •aside 11111447141011. • Ilia:
half ar the bunk. There were siosibiretionoesedo
the poy meat sof :'h ow;pd. the.oelrostiiiistionry
is the sw ieg,. go Alweipeoperfr for'whieli iW cw•
we
the bank furnioltsd Istarwfth the foratUf the

mind of any man to propose such c....__.asions in leis**
of such insult to the Clergy. He stated there were
4 Archbishop*, 45 Bishops, -- Parish Priests, SOO
Curates, and between two and 300 regulars in tint
Catholic Church of Ireland. It might be infor-
mation to those who knew little or nothing of Ire-
loud, to be told that the most ancient Christian
Clergy of the two islands was that of Ireland. Their
hierarchy had been unbroken from the beginning;
their conduct had been most exemplary forquietness
and loyalty ; and now when they were ready to open
the doors of Parliament to the Catholic laity, it was
upon such a body of men as those he had described
that they proposed to lay these degrading conditions
of the bargain. In the whole of the existing penal
code against Catholics there was nothing to be
found equal to those enactments. They were now,
for the first time, called upon to take oaths, in de-
falcation of which their lightest punishment must
be deportation. He objected to any compulsory
arrangements. It might be necessa►y to give se-
curit►es to the minds of Protestant., but_not of this
character. The Hon. Member fur Bramber had
stated the impression on his mind that the Jesuits
had eatablisliments in this country. The suppo-
sition of ►uch establishment' in this country was
incorrect. In proof of this lie cited a quotation
from an instrument of his Holineea the Pope,
in which it was declared that the Order of
Jesuits could not be restored in England, be-
cause the English Government did not think
proper that it should be restored. They were
wily to be allowed to reside in England for
the instructiou of youth, an office fur which they
were peculiarly fitted. Ile next would make sonic
remarks on the subject of Bulls. He contended that
since the Itelvrination the ',ewe of this country
had never been affected by the receiving and issu-
ing of Bulls from the Pope, at the seine time he
admitted that the Popes hail always strongly oh-
thected to admitting these Bull. to become a sub-
ject of treaty with airy Government. The rea-
m. 'night be traced in other countries perhaps
to the twiny profitable office. which were
in the gift of the Church in those countries.—
He should slut detain the Muse further. He was
ammo to ully restrictioos, at the same time l►e
wooked to give security to every scrupulous Pro-
testatit. This, however, ►lould he done in some
other rummer. Will the Hight Hon. Gentleman
eppopiie (Mr. Peel), and 01.4 e who opposed the
measure, say that nothing will satisfy them hut the
degradation of the Catholics ? He had received ho
conrinturieutimi from the Catholics of Ireland, if he
hail he should have felt it his duty to submit it to
th.: House, representiog, us he had the honour to
&p.c.- mot Catirelle interest. Whatever opposition
bei,vKle mese solely from himself, and not hum the
Cat (Hears ‘ear.)— He had no cornett nic.i.
ezz...pt from one Bishop, to whom he had ■d-
rested ou a tirr+t►er

and of him lie would
theca wont ':•usethee, mere venerable. a mottp,4
respectable l'relatr, iu izatat of' talents, relucatias%
whit, tyintwziono, and all ine tint qualities Haslet
adorn the human basin, there does not there can-
not exist. With respect to the statement of thil
Bibteps being summoned in Ihaistarii he eat lase- •1
ennocivis• bid information) although Jima the

vs h nit

,e should
honoured
' the
a.)
tur

onarrstoott

would
"leo.
but
lying
: the
thiii
Cu-

gun-
teo-
Ho
Jib&
objeet
,xtreate.
1 him 111 t
Holm—
, *CM—

object.
discussion
of clauses, which now, for the first time, were
submitfed to the consideration of the Howse.
They were such as the heed of the Church
had himself expressed his approbation of, and
with all doe respect to the Right Rev. Personage
to whom the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hutchinson)
had alluded, he must +ay that the House were
sufficiently informed of the sentiments of the Ca-
tholic body at large, to discharge a legislative
function. He denied that they could in any
degree be called penal clauses. That surely
could not be considered a penal clause which goes to
remove all the severe laws which have so long ex-
isted, whether justified or not, by the exigency of
the times in which they were enacted. They did
not seem to calculate the effect of the existing law.
They seemed to be ignorant that, according to the
existing laws, a Catholic by holding any communi-
cation with the See of Rome exposes himself to
considerable danger. He, therefore, looked upon
it not as a measure of security- but of indulgence.
On the simple principle of these securities, which
it was most important should be given, he could
assure the Hon. Gent. (Mr. Hutchinson) that he
was not to be deterred by any authorities that
might be cited, or any clamours that may be
raised. He had to lament the melancholy per-
version and versatility of Dr. Milner; but the best
refutation that could be given to him was to quote
his own opinions against himself.—( Ileur.)—There
was another Gentleman (a Father Hayes), of whom
the House had heard • great deal—( Loughter)—
and also another Gentleman in a learned profession
in Ireland (a Mr. O'Connell), whore talents never
yet were employed to promote either the tranquil-
lity, the peace, or the prosperity of his country.—
(Hear, hear. j —Now be usual say, that such oppo-
sition from such men, operated its hi. mind as
additional inducements to support the measure.
He was sure the House would never surrender their
understandings, or wait until the Catholics of Ire-
laud had assembled, nor leave the general interest
aid tranquillity of the empire at hazard. The
Parliament would not, he was sure, suspend their
functions until the Ecclesi.istical Parliament its
Dublin had issued their decrees.—fileur, and
laughter./—He conceived it WAV4 the bounden duty
of the House to proceed frarles.ly. They had the
materials and the information logo upon—they had
the highest authority in the Catholic Church, and
the expertence of Europe, to direct them in the
steps they were about to take ; and if the Catholic
clergy could be capable of refusing this measure
of conciliatiou for their flocks, the Parliament
should recd them to their duty. If there ever
was a period alien this principle could he applied,
e nnfurrnis /1011 etarat /ex," that period was the
pri.ent.—(lhar, heur.)—The oath simply implies
this. that whets all the chiu.es are removed that
prohibit the intercourse with Home, they would not
employ that advantage trinity evil purpose. To this
we are toll the Catholic Clergy of Ireland hewer cam
consent. Why then the clergy of (Maud refuse
their consent to wiled all the Catholics of Christens
dom agree to except themselves The arrangement
was quite explicit wills respect to the appointment
of the Bishops. The disapprobation of the Crown
was effectual in preveuting au individual lions dia.

' - ..... . •
4,- :••• • • ~,
'.. •e' 4-- *
*...;.:; . ...4. .
.: • •
.
•
4 the fOrthes consideration Ur the Report on oath to be lam This he trensmitted to hie friend, source he derived it he coold lint be induced
whom re gay was, tisot'he had never taken an oath in to entertain • doubt of it. He would appeal to
Fleets. St eag**. loft the Chair, his life, aid bad aim objetnittuorto don se, that the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), who entered cote
grartteletalswie *shed to state his views on he would Twilit+ tesiget his chins to the peoperty. this quest ion with a true Irish heat, and whose
es Mich the Bill arrived. He By this Rill Catholic chogjoften were required to talents dud eloquence were tweet mote conspicuous
• ' • 46dt nothing should tall sesearthat they would not hold any correipentlence than on the present occasion-he would ask that
.... winch ' " lifter the tone of the debate, with the See of Rome, tending directly or lath- 1 Noble Levi, suppose the Clergy of the different
tio&mr
• tothiplitimempieeted. He saw the greet reel!' to overthrow or dieterb the Protestant Go- 1 dioerees, each Bishop at the hoed of hie Clergy,
- ~L. ,
of ....
• -, lethal* to weaken tenement goo t..neren Great Britain, and that I declare that they cannot take the oath. in what
. .
as- • - Ibod.beenshewn to this roes- they would not communicate with any persons or sitnetion Would we then be pieced? We bring in
i's (41H—Corl.,w - i ooxione lest any part of ► authority abroad upon any matter which might a Bill, and pass it through the House, to relieve
' ' • • - . re, or gieeoltifito imettere with their civil duty and allegiance. He the Catholics from the disabilities an der which they
API ~ some here *arts step- did not my that men could not couscientioesly take labour, and we accompany it with conditions
11, and his anxieties this oath. But why-after they had opened the which they cannot conscientiously agree to. The
. to of the House. duora of Parliament so triumphantly to Catholic Reverend Bishop to whom he alluded has now
%"! lie- japeeosforeigu to his feelings Peers and Coasmouers-lied they stopped short and discharged his littered fuectious for the space of
--' • ila, she ionw of the debate, I treated the Clergy thus unceremoniously ?. Meet thirty years in the nowt exemplary nonuser; if
,a•syr 'tug lowa' wail be likely to injure of the Members had admitted that they hid no ape he wished to select a model of benevolence and
urework Elder no man had ever fell . prehension., and that they only asked for arcing- kindness, it is to hint he would look. For the
.. Alts, *hick no man had more ties because they were willing to sonriliate and re- spec, of time he mentioned he has been constantly
el elogrllloCtose himself. He avowed the move the fears of zealous Protestants, who were employed in administering the consolations of re-
feree hemp bo forced to oppose the opposed to the Claims. But was this the kind bertha to the flock intrusted to his care ; and now
to 4btemect birseirkt up. .in declaring of security they ought to demand ? %Vas it we come to him and say-we break in on his pri-
ltithiebiek he had'to encounter ly no- proper or just to tell the Catholic Clergy that vacy and retirement, and Mist on his taking an
ilea • hot, he admitted tha me had they had wo apprehension of an improper use oath under pain of transportation. He regretted
req ,iler eiterrismsled by his political being made of their influence, but that they should extremely he had not more weight and influence to
as ell sigoigod in dissuading him. take an oath to be prescribed. for the sittiefuction give effect to his opinion,- ( Hear. hear.)-He
'tel. siocirkriCtakew his place. received ano- of bigotted minds, or they should be transported hoped, however, the Noble Lurd would devise some
pas kettle% tellstsiowit . tensest remonstrances to Botany Bay, or he otherwise exiled or imprison- meam to make the measure more acceptable. He
lot hit Unaided , and declaring that ed for life ?He knew that the Member for Oxford, felt More anxiety for the success of the messurethan
bald ggitgolo iiirpie perhaps destroy the who supported this clause, guest be dissatisfied with ' words could describe, but no considenition, no
ass Ipsologma het that his oleo conduct and each • principle ill any other measure. He strongly wish to gratify any set of men could induce him to
poor ohoollo broom! be reputation by peeve- objected to the tenour and conditions of this practise deceit. Hr should be unworthy of the
Reels ithinoteesesiam. With regard to himself. and the oath to be taken with respect to docb- seat he held, and of the confidence which the Ca..
'llirabijlliellrairifileriared. that for his sup- orients from the See of Rome. By time Bill of tholics did him the honour to repose its him, if
4111All~kblelles ;beds here sad in Ireland, 1813, the Commissiou to be appointed Will bound he allowed these clauses to be brought up without
it- . •40 .. toe was
wnaipot
saguipippoftertiiinngg
ttokeinespignistiol:feustplo Sac relashoollfoßritehheoipr,osbujecchliaosnhtios
iricaticsteetriingiche,ismd
silit4ryruttnen HinethwaatsHs:auxwioulaieto.h
meetuu l should
tows th of the empire. disloyalty or known disaffection to the Government. prise his seat much higlier,oncl feel inure honoured
aramrshott.he woo ' be clearly understood Upon this the clergyman so opposed might have to see himself surrounded with the virtues and the
to Vitt eat choler • misrepresented. He met and refuted the charge; but the present Bill talents of his Catholic countrymen. -(Lowd cheers.)
OW tsh4,. • trho were chiefly interested in only coutined the expression of disapproval to -He had to entreat the potion of the House fur
*Mao had not been present et t• some reasons of • civil nature." He knew that occupying so much of its Mlle.-( /leer hear.)
.1i I. he busosoed that the bigoted there might be lea* in his objections than there -Ile feared he had not made himself understood
COMB likeisiod; Who were the least likely to appeared to be in the abstract. but when as distinctly as he could base wished ; above all,
ilitegior
illaied4olllollii totorono, had not been able to he was called en to legislate he had a right he should most sincerely deplore that a single ob..
Os Use 11411,41 'spew it. He was certain to look to all possible cases in whivli coil- imegnroivr:isolin :leant hsoadstfuadllie:
lhly'ortripeuvnedidlitetiiiiine.-sfth(ooHueel,daer.wc)rocualt,e,
as dwie,C.atholic fellow-subject 4, scientious men might be subjected to annoyance. that irritation which, happily for the country, and
kWh • Or the illalliffef in which Many conscientioos Dissenting Protestants would much to the honour of the House, had up to Hat
/00.44,
ihrMileFtede
Itiaectuerie- Lord CAST) eta , ANS
14 basso,
offidiseutizt
oHn ebontruhfiesidretds
eabereilriliTinigie totisouubsemi
wasl to tiesiotts
aliwkserethoefsetheunt
.
littt
iffelite erlei Woo ably argued the questioss, of the interests which were now in danger of being indulge him in a few observations. The Hon.
elosy4moOt rpm" to tho• Right Hien. Member separated, which induced him to raise his voice in Gentleman who just am down, had done him but
,401.4.... .i. ..4 this subject in so support of the Catholic Clergy df Ireland. A more justice in saying that lie sus incapable of giving
la. oaroootee he felt grateful foe every useful and respectable body did not exist. Though his support to any measure that could degrade the
01108041.801448ndest 'Right Hole Gentleman. the law admitted no power to be vested in them, Catholic Clergy in Ireland, or even any (hint
framilk4ll4.l.ol,4•lesimisf it deeply, of, by opposing jet such was their Ironer in preserving the public which they. as honest men and colocienlious Ca.
epsetsy- riliaretilks to 4, brought up, he should peace, and directing the minds of their flocks, that tholics, could not consent to.-(Hear, hear. I-
rai 1101501:411411.0 is •aitia‘ ng the gracious in- no one could do mare mischief to Ireland than he But he could not conceive there was any such qua.
4111114;taltirSereowlasssordwhis Mormon Catholic who should propose and carry a measure to reduce lity in the Bill now befOre the House. Its ten.
rflobellevetit dud the Right Hon. the influence of the Irish Catholic Clergy to a nut- • deney was quite of the opposite cha'acter. Ili
Oiefoottwos
.ftehe .taking up his mind lity. 'I'M. body of men, whose utilityand trapectabi- was quite at a loss to know on what solid ground'
ilitibett etOp the's"' Catholic Gentle meet lity were as great as that of any whicheould be named. the Hon. Gentleman (who he knew had no objet
lOW, dasiiir bp4de him to Pierlisnuent, were to take these oaths, and for what ? Were they but the honest discharge of his ditty) could repre.
avipsomp, Katie, the main con- going to grant them any favour, would they give sent the Bill in such a light. He.fitmenteil extreme.
of she Bill had been them any boon fur doing it ? No, they were to be ly that the discharge or Lis duty compelled him ti
11111111111101604161eb 'might to be required. dragged from retirement, and held out to the nobility present such an odious view of it to time House-
ha into extremely anxious to see that pout and gentry of time Catholic body as impeding con- for he knew how easy a thing it was to raise scru•
ad into a law, be yet was obliged to deprecate cessions which 'were to be made to the laity, on con- plea that would otherwise have remained dormant
moon.. proposed for accomplishing it. He dition of imposing igoomiiiy on them, the Clergy. and by this means frustrate the great object
denied. as .he always had dour, that it was He could nut conceive how it could enter into the We were not now proceeding to the discussio
._ .