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London, England, 1824-03-16 00:00:00

section east upoa the character of the of of the British artrlY,
to whom the Hon. Member (111 r. Hume) might have given credit,
for a desire to recommend the abolition of this punishment, if they
did nut believe its abolition to be inconsistent with the safety and
I good discipline of the 'my. ( Hear.) There was no monopoly of
humanity in this House, and he could assure the Hon. Member
that there was no clam of men whose sentiments would be found
I more responsive to humane feelings than the officers of the British
army. It was to be regretted that this cruel mod* of punishment
was obliged to be sometimes resorted to (for a cruelty he would
admit it was). yet the nature and eirermsuinces of the military would
not permit that it should be altogether done away with. If this
punishment should in no instance take place, why should it be
tolerated and sanctioned in our public schools? Again, flog.
ing was introduced into our penal code, and, severe as tile
punishment "right be, every person must see the impolicy
of expunging it from it. If therefore it was pen:nine(' and
lowed in in these instances, he would contend that it was equally
necessary, if it was not sometimes more so, for the preserva-
tion of good discipline in the army. 11'ith the permission of the
Ilouse he would mentions curious Met illustrative of his view on
the intpolicy of discontinuing this species of punishment. About
ten years ago he commailded a regiment which was a thousand
strong ; a spirit of irregularity and disorder arose amongst set real
of the men ; hre (Sir 11. Vivian) was at a loss to account for this
sudden insubodination, and directed the adjutant to inquire into
the cause of it. The adjutant accordingly reported to hum that it
was created in consequence of a rumour that prevailed amongst
these men " that Sir Francis Burdett had succeeded in doing
away with corporeal punishment." (Cries of hear, hear, bear.)
There we-e muny eases in which some rigorous punishment
must be inflicted, or discipline could not be maintained. In
the case of recruits, which were often found to be very un-
governable, it uperated as a salutary and most necessary re-
straint. These recruits were frequently of the wildest description.
Ile did not speak thus invidiously of them, for it was to the bold
character of its soldiery that the British arms mired that supsTiority
which it possessed over the enemies with whom it had been called
upon to cope. 1)n the contrary, he admired • soldier for this quality,
fur he had often obscrvetl the man who was first to break ground in '
the hour drill; the first also to break the enemy's line in the homed
batde. (Cheers.) In toast instances the offence for which the aid.
die,, were detected was drunkenness. Did he me in to say that
for every trivial oliince or irregularity of this kind that n moldier
should be flogged ? By no mean.—He would be :he last man to
countenance a frequent and indiscriminate recourse to this mode of
punishment. It should be reserved for greater offeilem, hut still lie
was at opinion that such discretionary power should not he vested
in the hands of the commanding officer. He would ask the advo.
cates of solitary confinement, in the event of fifty or sixty break.
ing out of barracks, how could they be punished by solitary coo-
tthement ? And even though there were accommodation to permit of
solitary confinement, it should be remembered, that whilst delin-
quents were in confinement, good and well-conducted men would
in the meanwhile be pot upon double and increased duty. (Hear.)
A comparison had been drawn between the French and English
army, in a point where no comparison really existed. The confine-
ment in barracks, as adopted in France, had been mentioned, but if
barracks were devoted to that purpose in this country, gentlemen
opposite would soon raise a cry against the invasion of the
priviledge of the subject. The Honourable Member for West.
minimr hail adverted to the conduct of the English army, at
Corunna, under that gallant commander, Sir John Moore.
Their conduct on that occasion was not caused by want of discip-
line or irregularity in the troops. The army was exhausted by
marches, by fatigue, and unremitting toil, and it some excesses
were committed they were in some degree excusable, fuse " bun.
ger would break through a stone wall." But how strongly con- I
treated was the conduct of the French in their retreat to the Pyre.
nen, through Spain, with that of the English army, who were
every where praised for the moderation that marked their progress—.
for the protection they extended. The French anny retrea:esi
gradually through ()rtes, Tarbes, and Toulouse, where we lost
sight of them. Everywhere they were hailed as the liberators of I
the people, and even a French writer, in an account of that war,
had said, that the "conduct of the English army on that occasion
was worth ten thousand men." (Cheers.) At present he
would admit, where regiments were at • reduced standard,
and in a time of place, flogging might almost be dispensed with ;
but when, as in time of war, battalions were twelve or fourteen
hundred strung, and when regiments were marching through an
enemy's country, or in various WWI' situations, it the power of
inflicting severe punishment were taken out of the hands of the
comnianding officer, it would he most destructive to the disci-
pline of the army. In such instances, he would ask, how was it
possible to have recourse to solitary confinement? Wear.) Ile
would mention a case that occurred within his own experience, to
shew the necessity of rigorous and severe punishment that was
sometimes necemary. '1 wo men applied to him on one occasion to
be admitted into a regiment which lie had the honour of command.
log. They enlisted as recruits, and pretended that they had never
been in any regiment before. They had received the bounty, to
which in war time they were entitled. About a fortnight, how-
ever, after joining his regiment, they absconded, and it turned
out that they were soldiers of another regiment, who were on
furlough, and who had joined him fur the purpose of receiving
the bounty. With such men as these what was to be dime ? If
the dread of' some severe penalty did not await them there would
be no restraint or corrective to their misconduct. :Italy important
improvements might certainly be introduced, as to the con-'
sequences of misconduct of soldiers. In several hummers
soldiers were transferred from regiments at hew to the Colonies,
where they got promoted almost immediately, aNd wrote home to
their friends that they were much happier and more comfortable
than in England. Such persons should not be promoted until sifter
three years probation. Ile would even go gofer with the Ilon.Meni.
ber for Aberdeen as to place limitations to the offences for which
Hugging was inflicted. such a proposition lie would be ready'!
to attend, but, for the reasons he had stated, he would oppose
the clause which the Honourable AI ember now endeavoured to in-
troduce. (Cheers.)
hint. FERGUSON said, that he was sure his Honourable
Friend (Sir H. Vivian) had endeavoured to avoid the infliction of
this mode of punishment, at the abolition of which his Honourable
Friend (Mr. Hume) now aimed. Ile (Sir R. Ferguson) would take
credit to himself for having imitated his example when he had the
honour of a command of a regiment. The present time of peace
was, in his opinion, extremely favourable to the experiment pm.
posed by his Honourable Friend, and he was induced to support tt,
find, because it was confined to the United Kingdom, and as the
bill passed the House annually, if the experiment failed the error
might easily be corrected next Session. As the object was a hit-
inane one, and the opportunity so well timed and seasonable, he
I would therefore support the clause.
I Lord PALM EIieSTON had already stated his objections to this
clause. It was now pmposed to confine its operation to the United
Kingdom ; but not extend it abroad. Now he thought the Hun.
letiiher, in consistency, shauld have first aimed at its abolition
, abroad, where the practice ass more liable to abuse than in Eng.
land, where there was a more immediate and operative check to
prevent the punishment front being inflicted improperly.
The }louse then divided.—.l)es, aj; Noes, lii—.Majority
against the clause, lid.

Al r. 111.'31E, on our return to the gallery, was moving the
Committee to the adoption of the following clause:—
" And be it further enacted, That from and after the passing of
this Act no officer be required or allowed to make any declaration
upon his word of honour as an officer and a gentleman, which,
even with knowledge of his superior officer, the circumstances of
ibe service compel him on many occasions to violate; anything
herein contained to the contrary notwithstanding."
It was well known that several officers paid inure than their re-
gulated price for their Collllllll‘llloll6, end it was most derogatory
I to the character of an officer to be compelled to make a declaration
which was notoriously at variance with truth. It degraded the
chalk ter of the profession, and must lower an officer in his own

Sir If. lIA sak!, the subject to which the lionourab'm
Member reterred was under the consideration of Government. The
regulation which had been alluded to would admit of sonic qualiti-
c.iticn or change, to obviate the objections of the Honourable
The locust should recollect, however, that no commis-
sion was sold or disposed of beyond the established price, without the
officer in successitin to a vicaLcy having the privilege of purchasing
at the regulated price.
Colonel DAVIES said, that it was desirable that the practice
should be done away with. For his own part. he had never been
called upon to make such a declaration ; but it was most unneces-
sary and untnir to impose upon an officer the degradation of
telling a deliberate falselossl, and one that they who exacted it
knew to he Kt).

Lord I'4II.3IERSTON felt great difficulty in the present
quostion. It had been said that the ilutir.y Bill was a mass of
unintelligible clauses; and if the claose now proposed were agreed
to, it would add another to the pre-existing ones, the he codtessed
lie did not see the exact tendency and effect of the Honourable
31ember's proposition. As to the sale of commissions, it had
been established, by repeated arguments in that House, that
it was expedient sales should take place. Assuming that point,
it was to be considered how sales did take place: now, there
was only one case in which the supposed abuse could
take place: it was that in which officers subscribed to induce an
officer to retire, a larger sum than by the regulated standard he
would receive. Exchanges front one regiment into another, ap-
plications for leave to sell, and retire on half.pay, were all regulated
by the Duke of York, with the knowledge only of the party apply-
ing. In this respect, therefore, no jobbing could take plsee. Ile
would oppose the introduction of the clause at present, but, jointly
with his lion. Friend, assure the House that me regulation winch
had been alluded to was under the consideration of fioeccom„a4
and would, he had no doubt, be modified, to the general siltiati:.
tion.

lolonel DANVKINS and the Hon. 0. BENNET supported
the CIAUSe.
:sir 11. I'IVI.IN said that the declaration was one most humi-
liating to a gentleman to he of liged to make. He concurred in the
expression of reprobation which had been pronounced upon it :
but u the matter was under the consideration of Government,
he anticipated a unistitctory molt, and would therctore oppose
the clause at present.
Mr. 111'31t: would not press the point to a division, as he
had been assured by the Noble laird that the regulation which
he (Mr. Hume) sought to amend would be amentied, agreeable
to his suggestion,
l'he other clauses of the Bill were then read, and the Bill passed
through the l;unintittt-e.
ANNI'AI. DUTIES.

Mr. BROGJ)EN !wrought up the Report of the Committee on
the Annual Duties MIL
IRISH ESTIMATES.

Mr. (:01'1.11I'll bcggetl ti; the next estimate,
24,0001. fur the Charter Schools of Ireland. This sum was 4,0001.
more titan he had proposed last year. The cause of this ihcrease
was created by the too greht number of children admitted into
the Foandling Hospital under filmier regulAtions. 11 itherto children
were admitted to the Foundling Hospital without ary payment. Now