The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1824-05-05 00:00:00

CAMBRIDGE.

Colonel FRENCH presented a petition from the Town Clerk of
the borough of Cambridge, praying for compensation for his losses
under the County Courts Bill—Laid on the cable.
COMPENSATION_ BILL.

The Compensation Bill was ordered to be referred to a Com-
mittee of the whole House on Friday next.
HIDES AND SKINS BILL.

Lord BEViIItAVE fermented • petition from the tanner, of
Chester, against the Hides and Skins Bill ; and from Artisgluun,
against Colonial Slavery,
Mr. ABE RCROM BT presented a petition from 4,500 journey.
men of Edinburgh against the Combination haws. The petitioners
expressed their thanks to the Right Hon. Gentleman, Mr. Mutts-
son, and also to the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. for the part they
had taken in this important subject..—Ordered to be printed.
The Hon. Member also presented • petition frm Toughs', in
Ireland. against the projected Bill (Sr &Bowing bonded corn to be
sold in the market.

MO C. predicated a petition train the batebm of Reading,
against the Hides BU.—Ordered to be printed.
COUNTY COURTS BILL.

Lord A LTHOR P presented a petition from the inhabitants of
' Manchester, in favour of the County Courts BIM It appeared
that a petition, praying to exempt the county of lAhalitCr. was
gm up by a number of attorneys in that neighbourhood, but that
as soon as it was discovered, the present petition was set on foot,
and slimed by a great proportion of the -Inhabitants. He had no
doubt that many mere petitions would be presented in favour of
the County Courts BilL—Laid on the table.
Lord A. HAMILTON, in presenting. a petition from the dis-
tillers of the county of Lanark, complaining of the injuries they
continued to suffer from the prohibitions to which they were sub.
jetted in the sale of their spirits in the British and other markets,
and prayed to be put on a similar footing with the Irish and Eng.
lish distillers. The Noble Lord enforced the necessity of attend..
ing to the prayer of the petitioners, and asked the Chancellor cf
the Exchequer for sonic explanation on the subject.
The CII A NCELLOR the EXC II EQUER admitted, that
in the discussions on this subject he had held out hopes to the
Scotch distillers, which he regretted he could not realise at this
moment. There was an inconsistency in the laws which required
• remedy, and all he could do would be to um every effort to find
out one ; but In the course of the present Session be could produce
no definitive plan. To proceed by plea-meal would he an erro-
neous policy, which ought to be avoided. All he asked was not
to be forced into a premature or ill-digested plan, while he ad-
: mined that the regulation as they now existed could not continue.
' It would be his bustnese, as it was his duty, to give the subject
his host and earliest attention.

Mr. C. H. HUTCHINSON said, that the Articles of Union
with Ireland were violated in preventing Irish spirits from coming
freely into England. The people of Ireland bad a legal right to
bring every one of their manufactures into the English market
without any interruption. English spirit in its raw state was dan.
gerous here; but it was well known that Irish whisky was, in its
raw state, in Ireland, a most excellent article (a laugh), a most ex-
cellent spirit, thank for centuries past, and he hoped would be so
for centuries to come. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer
would realise his promise, and no longer continue to violate that
clause of the Act of Union which allowed the exportation .1 Irish
manufactures of every description, free of restraint, into this
market.

--"Till. DENNIS BROWNE said a few words, which were inau-
dible in the
31r. HUllft called upon the Right Hon. Gentleman to grant
that part of the petitioner.' ',rarer, merely to put them ea the same
footing as the Irish and other d Millets. Let the Right HOC. Gen-
tleman then take his own time to digest the general measure, as ap-
plicable to all parts of the kingdom.
Ale. 31ABER1.Y hoped an equalization of the duties would
take plrce, and thus prevent smuggling, and put all parts of the
country in the same situation.
The Petition was then ordered to be printed.
•

31r. J. WILLIA AIS wished to know what instruction were
thrill to the Chancery C0=11661011 to report she evidence they re.
nerved ?

Air. PEEL replied, that just now he could give no direct answer
to the ttuestion.
IRELAND.

Mr. I h )ULBURN gave notice, that on Thursday week (as we
understoon), he would move fur an inquiry into the situation of the
disturbed essinties in Ireland.
EM.PLOVMENT OF THE IRISH POOR.
I Captain MA BERLY said, the in banging forward this Jaime-
' ant question, Hs• should base drawn much on the attention and con.
sideratiun of the !louse. Hsi the subject been taken up by abler
hand* he would In been glad of it ; but that not being the case,
belch it to be his in perative duty to bring it before their notice; and
in doing that he wos Id certainly abstain from using any irritating
topic. One of the gmatest evils of Ireland was a redundant pops
-
lotion, and not the poem on which the peasant was fed, and to
which many of her milli were falsely attributed. The habits and
manners of the Irish people, and the system under which they were
governed, produced her satiny evils. Local grievances in Ireland
caused general commotion owing to the degraded and debased state
of it. At different times, a :ffemit causes produced those evils, and
theuestion now was. how t, remedy the redundancy of the popula-
tion? The low qualification of freeholders gave a factitioi s In-
crease to population, and another cause of it was the interest of the
Catholic Clerior, who amour. wed early marriages, in order to
their own support. These s. iniulants should be taken away,
or if not taken away, should at aa events be lessened. Pope.
lation could be repressed (if hi might use the words by the'
increase ref capital, employing an increased number of labourers.
If comforts were increased, and wag:. at • higher rate, the popula-
tion of coune would be so touch better situated; and the difficulty
was how to produce such a beneticia: change in Ireland, where so
many nioral and other causes existed so prevent it. It was In vain
that a country produced in the utmost profusion the fruits of the
earth ; it was still further necessary that there was security of pro.
petty also. Want of employment always generated Insecurity.
(Hear, hear.) It was, therefore, with a view of inducing the in.
flux of liritids capital into Ireland, that he particularly dwelt upon
the importacce and paramount necessity of devising sane means
for the employment of the people. It was further remarkable,
where employment prevailed disturbances seldom occurred. Ile
would refer particularly to the county of Mayo, where manufac-
tures were cultivated and enuoutaged, and where disturbances did
not exist. The evidence given on the Committee which sat last
year for considering the state of Ireland, corroborsted his views on
this subject. Amongst other witnesses who tendered their testt.
many on that occasion was the Hon. Member fur Waterfued: the
tendency and effect of his testimony went to skew, that tranquillity
prevailed wherever employment was given. Mr. Owen, of Lanark,
also had resided eight months in Ireland, and the result of his
observations was, that distress and disturbawee were only to be found
where employment could not be procured. In Corkaguiny, it ap.
paned, from the testimony of the engineer who was appointed to

the inslectibe of that baron, that as soon as employment was
, !given disturbance cowed. ((Hear.) The making of new and
proved lines of read were found available in most !meanies, b,
(the meet* of employment, to restore the people to pacified s„a
orderly habits. Mr. Furlong had given similar teutintuny ; mid
I this testimony, particularly as regarded the fourtenay oda:,
I I where, from the want of proper employment, insurrecuun turd;
I out, but where now quiet and content were to be toand, from gm
employment that had been glint. In newly instances, person, wIL
were only able to earn fourpence, were, from the improved star.
of occupation and employment, enabled to earn from tenavenee
a shilling. The evider.ce of Mr. Piero Mshony was of a similar
tendency. He rated, that from Newmarket to Castleisland few
gentlemen resided, a distance of more than twenty mile*, and even
there the cessation of disturbance always accompanied the en,
ofpeasantry. From these and other cireurnstarce;
p oymerst the
wshaeyrons
atsedioncowntsens itnanevidtal!),,,,le,peritharyt,enanedplogyamvetnsecut ofrithtye
toirropeele property.
lie was aware that Mr. Adam Smith would be quoted, in •
sition to the grant lie intended that night should be allocated for the minim* of his present motion; but he would say, that the
opinions 3f other political economists were in opposition to d use
of Mr. Smith. Poli:ics was essentially a moral science. It was
founded on a comparison of moral events, and we. liable in
many instances to exceptions. Indeed, the pricipal law of that
science, and one on which all the other laws were emir.
quent, was, that every min sought to follow his own inse.
rest; yet even this principle was liable to exception; and If
the foundation was insecure, surely it would not be said but
that the sunerstnecture might also be unstable. 3lr. Rican* and
other political economists were of opinion, that a sum might be
laid aside for the promotion of some particular interest. In the re.
port of the Committee of last year, it was stated that the apps.
prestion of money to Intel purposes could not generally be de.
fended, b butt that, in the particular instance of Ireland, there were
reasons which might wartant the extension of aid and noisome,
• to that country, in particular branches of industry, which branches
afterwards might be be left to mourzl causes far sae cess or Uwe,
The principal departments of national industry to which be (Mr.
Maberly) would beg to recommend the application of the own be
was now about to propose were, the encouragement of the fisheries,
and the cultivation of flax. The fisheries :night panicularly be
• made available to the prosperity end increasing wealth of the
country; hut from the want of skill in the Mbermen, and the want
of general encourgetnem, th were not in that state of advanced.
prosperity in which the should have been, front the abundance of
fish upon her comets. Atte flax, it appeared that Ireland was,
! front its soil, capable of growing that article of manufsdure in
greater abundance and in greater perfection titan any other parts(
Europe. Hillard and Flanders could not cope with Ireland*
the production of thee article, either in quantity or in excdhoce.
The Hon. Member here adverted to the evidence of Mr. Oldham,
of Dublin, a linemdrapee, with a view of supporting his opitione
in the production of this commodity. After enumerating,* de-
tail, the disadvantages under which the Irish agricultunst la.
bound, from the want of skill and of capital, he prowled that a
sum, no exceeding a million, should be devoted to the papaws he
had alluded to. -Those who received any portion of this 0141
should give security for its repayment, so that the country should
not be burdened with the e..pense of this charge. He pretend
this mode of dispensing the money, should it be voted to that of
expending it in public works, fur as anon as the public works
erased the population reverted to their original state: be would
therefore prefer that the money be entrusted be entrusted to the
proprietois of the soil. He was aware even that this proposition
was liable to objection, as it might be apprehended that gentian*
might dispose of the money thus entrusted to them, in paying off
mcrgages on their estates, rather than to purposes of agricultural
improvement, as proposed by the Legislature. He would there.
fore propose a cheek or corrective against the liability of such
abuse. For this reason he would propose the appointment ofa
Commmisson, which, with the aid of inspector and local
magistrates, might be assured of the satisfutormess of the security
before the money was advanced. He would retiontmendthe prin.
eiple of the charitable loans to be adopted in the distribution of this
money ; and mentioned, as one of the many instances of the ad.
vantages of this system, s case ecmmunicated to him by a Catholic
clergyman, of several boats which were rotting on the shoos, but
which, by the means of this loan, were enabled to renew their semi.
pation. The case of Scotland was conclusive as to the advantages
of employment. Much of the improved condition of that county
was attributable, doubtless, to the education of the people • but
much, and still more, was attributable to the employment afforded,
which mainly contributed to the improvement elate moral habits
' if that people. With a view of administering a similar relief to
the people of Ireland, and of promoting their prosperity and mo-
ral advancement, he would conclude by proposing, “ That an hula.
ble address be presented to his Majesty, humbly praying that he
would be graciously pleased to grant an advance of a sum, net
coding a million, for the employment of the peasantry of Mum
ster and Connaught, and for the appointment of a Commission *
carry that object into effect is the best and meet serviceable manner.'
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, on the motion
being seconded, said that he was reedy to do potion, and pm
ample credit to the benevolent and
bring forward the present motion.
It was true that the situation of that county, and the causes that
created it, were worthy of most attentive consideration. With a de.
lightful climate—with &fertile country—with superabundant capabi-
lities, and with a fine putdie.spirited people, yet it must be ad-
mitted, and the admission should be accompanied with painful ro.
gret, that from the peculiar internal circumstances of Ireland, she
had not arrived at that degree of prosperity to which those eapabi-
lities entitled her to aspire. Feeling this as **did, and feeling also
that the interests of Ireland were interwoven with those of Great
Britain, he felt that every motion relating to that 'sundry should
be received with great favour: Happy as he should feel la con-
interring and co-operating in any proemial benefit to that
be could not think either this plan or the mode as proposedcatrZ;
Honourable Member was calculated to arrive at those bens.
Scial results which Honourable Members anticipated. He was
advent to eleemosynary loons; but, as be understood the Hon.
Member, his proposition suggested the repaymeot of whatever
money was advanced. Even on this ground be could not agree
with him, and was of opinion that such grants and advisees of
money should only be made when they were obliged by an over.
ruling maturity, which no established principles or rules could
regulate or control. (Hear, hear.) It was not from indifference.
as might be supposed, to the condition of Ireland, but from the
opposite reason, that he would refuse to sanction this proposed
system. It was a system which might confer mennentary prosper
rity, but which must terminate in ultimate disappointment. (Hear.)
Such a system must hare an end, for Government could net
always be supposed to supply assistance of this kind, and when et
ceased the people thus supplied must'be left In the same and am
greater distress than that in which they were tint found. It had then
the pernicious lesson of leaning upon Government rather than do
pending on their own gentian fur their livelihood and happiness.
The Hon. Member had particularly directed the attention of the
House to two points—first, the encouragement of the &Pericl—
es:midi,. the growth of flax. The fisheries were already en.
comment to a considerable extent, in the only way in which
encouragement ought to be given. The Lord Lieutenant was
snowed a grant (a grant he would be unwilling to see withdrawn)
for the emotion of piers and the building of small heehaws, in
such parts of Ireland as the fisheries were 'tk to be entonniged.
This moreover gave employment to many, and advanced the par-
ticular interest to which the Hon. Member had alluded. As to the
growth of flax, in those pans of Ireland where lax was not grown
I corn was cultivated, and this was manifestly because the coin's.
Con of corn was found to be more profitable, as the sowing, of
course, was only equally expensive with the sowing of flu.
He had a strong objection to the system of lending money upon a
plan sin dee to the one proposed, as it would be the means of
placing the Government and the landed proprietors in a state of
hostility. The propriety of advancing sums of money on
on lands in Ireland wag upon a tonna oocasioa discussed in mortgage
! House ; and hr was one of those at both sides of the House who
I was unfavourable to the measure, and his objections to the present
measure were, if possible, of a nature more essential. Into these
I objections he would not enter at any length; be did not wish to
press them on the House. Ile did not wish to have the appearaeos
of using any thing like warmth upon the discussion. He would
be sorry to sheer that, either as an individual, or in his situation
as connected with the Government, he was influenced by any
I feelings which might appear utiftiendlt to Ireland. He was sure
neither he nor the Government could be taxed with ar y such feel.
, ings. He had never interposed any objettion to any measure that
might be deemed beneficial to that country. In all these measures
which within the two last Sessions had been beeteght forward, and
which had been partly suggested by his Majesty's Government to
Parliament. every thing was assented to—every application made
for the relief of Ireland was granted--evett thing which went to re-
move all restrictions upon her centimetre—those which were the
legitimate sources of prosperity—those measures which, judgenec
from the practical effects of experience, could not by any pa*.
bility fail of doing good, wereassented to. He much doubted if
this measure would by productive of good, and therefore he could
not, consistently with his sense of duty, give his support to the mem
sure. It would he at the best but temporary and delusive, and the
House would at the end of every two or three years )rave to begin
again. They would be called on again and again. The attempt
would be made over and over, and with rester importunity each
year, for grants of this description ; and the result would ulti.
mutely be, that the House should eithr cheek the proceeding when
perhaps it was most necessary to be continued, or should look upon
the plan as certain and to beaded upoa. Foe them romans he did
not think it consistent with good polity to auto 6e the system
lending sums of money upon so extensive a scale. He did
wish, from the feelings to which he had alluded, to give the motaci
a direr negairre • hut he would move the previous question.
Mr. MAIIER.IA, in explanation. said be would not confine
the grant to any particular class ; he would distribute it among* all
the manufacture*, and give a portion of it to the fisheries.
bend LT 111 IR P was of opinion that the great evil affecting
Ireland, was the want of capital. It should be the business of the
government to increase capital in that country. The exception to
the general rule, with regard to Ireland was, that the capital was
forced out of it. The general rule to which be alluded wits, ca.
pital would not go to theme quarters where it could not tiow naturally.
Government should force capital into Ireland instead of acting in a
manner the reverse. The state of Ireland was so Marcum as to
make it an experiment of danger to remove =pital to it. Ins every
absurd speculation of the present day, money was raised, capital was
sent to Mexico and the most remote places : It was never sent to Ire.
land. The state of that country should be altered; capital should be
forced into its natural channel. He did not assent to the argument
of the Right Hon. Gentleman that Ireland had no claim to the
loan, because, if once granted, it should he kept up: he had no
such apprehension. It did not follow that it was advisable to
refuse the grant because another should be advanced in a ease
of equal necessity. This necessity did not depend upon them;
db:utienitigliitiltodtaln:wesnotaultotlultdehuicei jettohinwaienteencoudhu°ddile:ll2yrpPimtalvedto of.be calberriedUotfoernlrne7antd.mirlihet
waasfiimisuicnhg, thatrelle fill and
htthitio effeoniec..

rich fans. which in* jei "limullf bad csndidon : it would be mews advisable to assist the people upon other oc.
r[...a le e !his
so, opinion. be wiseue=mil • begs sum of meaty on came".
Pnli, Il
bon, that it might ul • _
newer! nen sum,amu_chie.iueemervi. NI J. SMITH
r.J. , in explanation, said, the Acts of Pediment to
eell'obbol by iDFIII7III.I A reSt.lll LOI!, te W_N_L
geotsois future OrN which be alluded related to private individuals, and on to public
with interest ; or !as pari. he WMINI fee as to ta :e works stone.
drtsse mem consumed wicks in Ireland, and would wish to Mr. °MILBURN said, the besefits conferred on the cauntria
__.A. a, cheap e place to live in as any in the known work, were content s.
l'ilentr—osotr to cou d asily be done: labour was excessively Mr. S. It (1 he did not intend to lemmata upon the
t'' *--.....--: Oil t-test Emilia who were, from the ex-- Houle. Ile intended to lame the discussion to his colleague,' in
lo ow 't -- his " t ol i Englard, should 'o to the representation of the empire, and take no
ore ! of this cuuutry, uco e to live npart in it himself,
lead inoead of w foreforeign,e cose : one in parti:thcuunin'''' '!'hare were
particular,mane dif- but as he was the !Member who moved the' Report alluded to by
„ors, be was aware, in te which the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, and as the
Oioie bear upon a respectable lie meant t dißirdty of principle of that Report was dissented from, he thought it impen.
snag eiappiWil when at a ttistanee from any torte relief upon tive upon him to rim in defence of that principle, and he was sure
O...dibet ebould, he thought, Le off G offered by o Hagree Government. If the (louse would with him in that defence. The argm uent
ze,a,,,,,,u5a were coeferod, people *add live as cheaply in used by the Rt. lion. Secretary upon the occasion, was a strange one;
fuelled in in any ether part of the world. With Teepee to the it was that the House should reserve its energies and assistance un-
ownes, he was awed of the advantages they produced, and it til famine appeared in Ireland. That famine should be waited for
ni dray upeo their account he wa. so anxious for the removal as a matter of probable occurrence. It was the declaration of the
0 ;he &nail reinsins of the tax on sale (Hear, hear,) Upon the Secretary for Ireland in Parliament, that the people were to expect
object /if these fisheries,. he knew it was easy to say the system of the pest of famine ! " Walt," he says, " and give no assienece to
joelock required securities to Le given, and this was a heavy the people until these pests come upon them ;do nothing to pre.
ditimhy to Lite poor. lie thought there was some truth in this vent them." His argument would be to encourage industry, assist
eery/aeon and lie wished the privilege was given up. The the people: there are obstacles in the way of theiradvancentent ;
.;
otivo a duo consideretion was, which was the most advisable remove these obstacles; raise the people in the scale of society.
ziw,7,e o be adopted, and the least liable to imoutation ? Ile The Hoe. Gentleman then proceeded to state several instances in
thought the tonsure before the House was of such a description, which the supply of capital lid been attended with beneficial con.
see M would make no objection to it. sequences in Ireland. A gentleman named Strickland had ad_
Lie, J. S/dITH was always satisfied with the evidence of a good minced IWII9I. in dammed, and the linen, the produce of that Need,
Iwo ahoeted by the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Ex. bad finely sold for 21,0001. in the Sligo market. In another in.
aequoo, wore, be felt iterates( respect. He was also well aware stance. since the opening of a new road, in consequence of the ex •
Jews:dent desire et doing good that dietinonished the Right Hon. penditure of • small capital, there had been upwards of 29 new
orations:l, but he could scarcely form an idea of the insufficiency houses built, and 3 proportionate Increase of the trade and pett-
y:deep:tants which he thought proper to address to the House. sperity of the neighbourhood. The lion. Gentleman concluded
la the entire of his parliamentary course, he had never heard such with a compliment to the Hon. Member for Medhurst (Mr. John
arguments as those adduced by the Right Honourable Gentleman. Smith) for his exertions in behalf of the Irish nation, and express.
lie led admitted the want of capital in Ireland, and that every ti,l his wish for the revival of the Committee, over which that lion.
es should be taken to induce a
d he
diet capital to flow into Ireland ; Member bad presidd. for the application of capital to the invi.
then siesta that this meueure, if assented :o, would cause goration of 'riot' agrieculture and mpapnulactures.
larger loans se be looked tOr as a source of relief. He could Mr. GOULBURN said the question, at the present moment,
say, for his own part, that he was one of a commission •appointed was simply whether the House ought to all for a further •pant for
to lend sums of money to the public for public purposes, such as the Irish people. Ile believed it would not be attended with come. 1
the buildiag of churches, repairing roads, bridges, &c. upon good quences so beneficial as had been stated. I '
securities'. He was also a member of another commission, which Mr. S. RICE, in explanation, repeated that the High. Hon. Gen-
advanced immense sums of money to the people of Great Britain deism bed wholly misrepresented the arguments in behalf a the
end somiand. Ile fur one had laboured must intensely at this can- motion. I
oisseori, and be would appeal to the House, and would ask if they Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that as he had been absent due-
would grant to England anti Scotland what was refused to Ireland. ing the address of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Goulbum ), he could !
bad adopted this mode of proceeding three or four times upon not judge whether he had or had not misrepresented the arguments '
eesd secerity. Wit h regard to Great Britain, the Right Hon. Gent. in support of the motion ; but Rem all be ( Mr. C.) knew of his
dad argued that this than, if grao'ted, would be productive of bad Right Ron:Friend, and of his opiitione on this ;ammeter subject,
tonemences to Irelatel.• What were the effects of similar pro. he was astonished to hear such a description of his match as the
ealtros in England? He knew places in Yorkshire which were Hon. Member for Limerick had given. The Hon. Member him-
bona sod unproductive, and which, under this measure, be. self had argued the question as if the Irish people were raised I
owe enricbed and fertile. He was also acquainted with indivi. above that extreme exigency which was only just short of actual 1
eels, new men of fortune, who were not so four or five rears want. The question at issue was not only whether such assist-
ant, bat who bad become so by these very loans. The Right ance as wee promoted by the motion should be afforded, but
Hanarable Gentleman had argued that a loan was not the pro- also whether it should be'afforded in this particular manner. Ile
per mode of affording relief. Ile coukl not assent to this argu. agreed that no proposition for the relief of Ireland amid have been
moo He agreed with the gcntlenien of the Committee for Dm- introduced in • way more calculated to insure the favourable 'ten.
'4,64o—what was called the Irish Committee,—that the loan tion of the House. The temperate and judicious speech of the
was the only just principle upon which assistance could be given Hon. Mover was not motehappy in its conception than Its mace.
to the poor. n the matter to which be alluded there was a sir. tam. No measure had ewer beim brought forward in a speech of
plus of 44E0001. after the attainment of the object which the greater moderation or with more good sense. flowerer the House
moiety bad in view. And he was sorry to my that he Amid night differ from the Hun. Mover as to the application of his pain.
in of the gentry of Ireland, he was sorry to say that they ciples, it was rut possible to differ from him as to the principles
did not behave as the London Committee had a right to expect; themselves. (Hear, hear.) His car.dout had even led hint to state
but notwithstanding these difficulties, he approved of the tune his case perhaps too strongly against himself, for he had said that
NW or &dancing money upon good security. It was, in hie unless' he could shew that the affairs of Ireland had arrived at a
opinion, a good institution. It taught the people that these debts crisis to which some extraordinary remedy became solely appli.
Mould Le duly paid • it would teach them an honesty of feeling, cable, he could not sustain hi motion. Now he (Mr. Canning)
sod that it depended upon themselves if other individuals would contended, without going into the question of the peculiar condition
soist them ; and they would therefore become mooted in repa of Ireland at the present moment, that the proposed remedy would
log the loans. For the correctness of these opinions, he would. entail evils that would more than counterbalance any advantages
appeal to tee lion. Friend the Menlber fur Limerick, who was a arising from its present application. Instances had been cited, in
much better judge than he could pretend to be. (Here the Hon. which tompanuve deserts had been rendered flourishing districts.
Member pronounced a a arm encomium upon, we believe, a Gen. Undoubtedly, as to these particular places, great blessingeOad re.
Burke, of Limerick.) As to the bad consequences apprehended suited from the application of capital, under the circumatatices can.
from even small loam, he would state a feet ; it occurred in the der which it had there been applied ; but the Honollent• could not,
county of Clare. Amongst the many thomiand letters he had from those instances, deduce any general rule to govern the proceed.
received oo the subject, there was one from the Reverend Olga of the House with respect to the motion under consideration.
Mr. Duggan, of Moyarte—one perhaps of the moat estimable It might be true that en advance of lONOL by the landlord to his
men in the world- Ile had stated that since the preceding tenants employed in the cultivation of flax, had enabled them sub.
October the boats of three parishes had not been at sea ; that sapiently to produce 20,0001. worth of linen ; but how it could be
hunt their poverty, in consequence of the scarcity, the owners maintained, that because it was an advantage for the landed pro.
wet obliged to pawn their nets, and of one hundred and twenty pricton occasionally to make advances to their tenants, ergo a loan
!bite, net a single boat was at sea• lie did not ask for mo.. from the Government to the landlords could be beneficial, he was
ney ; the object of the application was to make an appeal to a at • loss to understand. If a loan could be at all advantage.
Noble:nen who had estates in that district. The Society lent ous, the House should enable Government to make advances
the sum of 1061., with which forty-two boats were prepared for the to the tenants directly. (Hearo hear.) But it was his clear
fishery, and were remarkably fortunate. The Rev. Gentleman did opinion that the scheme would prove in the highest degree
.mis-
am expend the entire sum he used but 824 Was there, he would chievous, if carried into practice. He spoke with the more positive.
ask, sin advantage in this loan ? Was it not an Advantage to sup. new because this was an opinion to which he had become a convert,
ply the means of subsistence to 3.16 human beings, who were before and according to the old adage a convert was more strongly ansched
in a este of want and destitution ? And after this instance, was he to his opinions than one to whom the evidence on which they were
to be told this was a bad system, and it would prevent the people founded had not appeared so irresistible. Two or three years ago
from depeeding at their own exertions? On the contrary he would he (Mr. Canning) had entertained an opinion not widely different
say, what he wished to gay, that the public nmisery was reduced by front the Hon. Mover, as to the mode of relieving the distresses of
the plan of lending money ; and with respect to Ireland, he was agriculture, not indeed in Ireland, but in this country. lie was
convinced that if we did not make a change in the *bole of our now convinced that the project was impracticable, sod if practicable
policy—if we did not alter those plans which we had pursued foe so rnischievouo The plan was, that the }executive overnment should
mooy years, cretin in the present state of Europe were in prospect grant a loan. In the first place, he would ask the Hoe. Gentle.
which would pull down this great and mighty empire, front which man, whether the Government in Ireland was not considered the
so May improvements in arts, sciences, sad religion had erne. Name with regard to its character of creditor as In England ? The
Muds awl which be hope d, with every honest Ines, would still parties who accepted the lean must of course become debtors to the
cendeiso to erwartate. -This mein would be pulled Amu if the Crews. (Wes. hear.) Timm amid-hes* iseder withem stew
system were not ameliorated—it the narrow and higotili system of rower, and be remembeesd that k was mid In the Spectator or some
policy were still persevered in. AU he asked foe was, that trained periodical week, that moth* was so different as the beginning
'oleo be made a source of strength and power to this country, and the end of • loan. (A beagle) No man appeared so bane.
booed of what she may be, its destruction in the hour of need. veleta es a lender—none so odious as a creditor, (hear,) yet it was
Me. GOULBURN conceived the question to be, if it were ad. unavoidable that the Crown must so change its character with re.
'hale to gnat the sum of one million to Ireland, under the cif spat to those who received the loan. He wits not saying that he
cusestances before the House; and his Right Hon. Friend was would not prefer an eleemosynary grant at mice to a perpetually re.
Mud with the enamor in which he delivered his sentiments, as if newed loan. When the day of payment arrived, the Crown came
be bad not expremed himself in the way which usually distinguished without ceremony to enforce its demands in the first instance. The
him in the House. The fact was, his Right Hon. Friend wassail( tendency of the scheme was to place the landlord in the situation of
anxious, upon ovary measure relating to the advantage and interest becoming a debtor to the Crown, at the risk of losing his indepen.
of Indeed, and be tees upon the present occasion toillueneed by a dace, and perhaps to the loss, if not the ruin, of those who were
feeling of regret lest the measure before the House should not_pro. his creditors before. lie (Mr. C.) was convinced that the plan
dem It. He agreed entirely with the feelings of his Right Ham could not be carried into practice without entailing consoquences
Fried; as to himself individually, nothing could be mere mrste. inconvenient in the highest degree, and of the most serious charge.
NI this the succor of a motion tending to the benedt of ter as to their influence on the connexion of the two countries. He
baked; nothing could be more pleasant to him as an individual gave the fullest credit to the benevolent principles in wbkh the mo.
thee to be able to say, upon his return to Ireland, that be had pea. tion had originated, and he confessed Mopposed it reluctantly be-
amed, se been instrumental in procuring, from Parliaineot a mil. cause he wee friendly to every snamere processing to relieve dm db.
lin of money for the benefit of the country ; if is were not sup. tresses of the Irish nation.
pose that such were his feelings he would be dealt badly with. Mr. S. Rice and Mr. Ca ten mutually explained.
With respect to the measure before the House, be thought the Lord Mr. MABERLY sold, that if he read to the House some letters
Lieutenant of Ireland would net be acting consistently with which he had lately received from Ireland, he was sure they could
his duty, if he did not apply the most serious coosidastion not reject the proposition of his Hon. Relative. The diaereses of
to every plan for the benefit of the couney, anti amongst others to that etteotry were of inconceivable severity, The farmers lived and
those plans similar to the one proposed. With respect to the sum of slept with their domestic animals, and in many instances their pO.
meaty granted to England, -spoken of by the Hon. Member as 'rely me such that they could not save he. or fie. to buy seed. Of
to England, and not to Ireland, it struck him as strange that the labourers there were many who had nut earned more then sa. •
(granted
observe that contemporaneous grants were made to day foe many months. How could it be expected that these men
Ireland. If the Honourable Member had read the public Acts he should be contented when they could not sell their labour for food ?
would find that Meta large aunts were granted for the public works The House bad been voting money far churches and palaces.
of England—for instance, for the erecting bridges, or making roads, a Could it withhold the loan for which his Hon. Relative had asked ?
latesuntwesaboeppropristed with equalliberality to Ireland. When Thee had been lately two Dutchmen in Ireland, who had taught
One minim was plead in the hands of Commissioners for England, the Irish bow to save their flaxseed ; and there would soon be others
half that ens was appropriated to the use of Ireland. This was nut to lend espial, if some were previously applied to the wants of the
intended as a permanent system of government; it was intended as • population by Government. The fact was, that they were almost
provision foe au emergency, to give an impulse to the vigour of the in • of starvation, and his object in supporting the motion was
cuuntry,a vigeo. wh the course of events gave us reason to expect .le a fend for raising flax.
t* would speedily attain. The loin was granted until the country TRENCH stated. that Mr. Strickland, whose Med-
had revived front its embarrassments • it was upon this maiden Whom conduct had been so highly and justly COMMeeded. WOO an
the loan was given ;it was not intended upon all. No Session bad English agent. If his example were followed, Ireland would
elapsed since he held the situation which he had the honour to won be In a different situation. A crisis was arrived to which at.
hold, from the period in which it had been filled with so much tentiati mart be given. He (CoL Trench) felt this conviction so
ability by his predecessor, in which measures had not been taken strongly. that it had Impelled him fee the first time to stand for.
to give amistance to the population of Ireland. The epiestion now ward and take part in a discussion from which his conscious inabi.
roe the coesideration of the House was, if it were expedient or ad. lily bad hitherto always deterred him. The Irish people possessed
risible to grant the sum of a million, and convert that into a an energy of character, • cape* of endurance, and an anxious
cysts= which was merely intended for an emergency. He was not desire aro:ride foe theniedne and their families; whit*, under
adverse, as an individual, to any assistance that could be given ; proper Cultivation would maw the most surprising effects,
neither waethe Government of the country. The great object was and wherever friendship and kindness had been mot' to.
the inwedemion of capita into Ireland; and to induce this it was wards them, the roost benevolent results bad followed. The
onseted, that if anoirdividual embarked hie capital in public works Honourable and Gallant Member then referred to the evidence of
la Inked he would be entitled to • higher rate of Interest few a the Countess of 0/angel! as to the dispositions and capacities tithe
limited somber of yeses on the capital thus embarked. This was Irish people. Awaen the evils that pressed upon that country, it
doe, by Act of •Parliamait. It would be advisable Dew to see might be mentions* that the rate of interest had not been reduced,
what were the effects of a lan. There were many ends intake. sad that no advances had been merle by the Bank of Ireland. The
time for diem purposes- io Imbued. He would inseam oett—that Welk* were ationed is the condition of mere agents, and ill paid
fir giving omistootie to bode and usontilltelliklik. Warless non- Wilk too, of that creditors. He did not deny that the principle
Melees and angimetims weeet mode to, Goeureasent by the lathe motion migt4 toot generally be missainous, bet in this in.
Comatimemen employed, in Os disseibution if whey. The easel he emsider4 k would be highly beneficial. There wale he
oevamimiesee, were meg et di. highest respectability ; they csafessa, aminag prejudice among the Irish gentry against trade.
could not be taxed with any remissness; they had no particular Tbey would'aelner see their sons starve than bind them to the
Political feelings, they were of ad religioce ; their only wadi wee to fret lambast in the kiegdom. The Honourable and Gallant
OW* the Door of Inland ; they bad no• wish for the ammo of Member concluded aids a -wattage of an abortive attempt in
taxed& . and them- perm& had made representations, not once or the coungy of Roscosnma, in which he resided, to raise a sub-
titles, diet they cons:detest these parliamentary rantsa prejudice, scription kr die relief of the agricultural population. Ile was
bad not • Med. The applicants fur the grant were certaisly able ashamed to say, that, in a county containing 20.1.000 WWI under
to Procure *mirky, but their object wee to embark in trade upon the plough, and yielding • revenue of Be.oool. per annum to
a Retiusua capital, in competition with others, who had estabbsW absentee', only BBL were subscribed, of which he had given, a i
themselves by means of their own capitaL The low rate of interest considerable portion himself. He looked, therefore, to Govern.
at which they procured money from Government, pave them an op. merit. OS the only source from whence adequate relief could be
Mietunity of Interfering with the legitimate profits of others. obtained.
Was tepesseotatites of this kind were made to the Lord Mr. ABERCROM stY said, that he wan under the necessity of
Lieutenant, be thought it his duty to imam the sum granted stating, that fur the motion then framed he could not vote. Un.
Ise. Session from these Commissioners, end expend it upon douladly the House had never discussed any question relating to
public works. Here, therefore, was one ground of his objectioas: Inked more temperately than this ; yet he was apprehensive of
to the loans if they were beneficial to one particular case, they the effect that might (Alta the opinion that mite Hasse did not
Interfered with the profits of others. If the loans Wm granted at entertain • favourable disposition towards a proposition for the
present, the House should go on with similar geosta, even when relief of Ireland. There was in this country a redundancy of
they were not necessary. lie would not at present enter into the capital for which no employment could be obtained, yet there
detail of the measure. There was also ameba objection to the were six or seven millions of people in Ireland to whom not a
lean to individuals: if Governinenewas compelled to recover them, shilling of this vast and redundant capital found its way ; and the
it had a priority over other creditors, and the way of proceeding motion proposed that Governmem should do what individuals would
was by extent This was a source of great apprehension to those not. It was certainly absolutely indispensible that some decisive
individuals who had lent a person thus circumstanced money, measures should be taken with regard to Ireland. It was india.
and they called it in as they possibly could. It therefore followed pitiable that the present state of things there had resulted from •
tact Goveronient should either forego this power or cause an evil to long eeries of misgovernment. The state of the administration of the
the individual himself. Ile felt nu indisposition to the claim of law had consequently become such, that the insecurity of both per.
the people, but he regued the question upon its general principle. suns and property opposed insunnounteble obstacles to the diffutom
The people of Inlaid should not press upon Parliament her grin's,of capital. lie agreed with his Hun. Friend (Captain Maberly ) that
and loin) expectations which it would be impossible to gratify, the greatest evil of Ireland was the excess of the population beyond
and which would tend is the destruction of their industry. It was all means of employment. The only remedy was, to increase the
not desirable to encourage hopes that could not be fulfilled. Ile capital of the country ; but till it mak be safely and profitably ice.
would mention another reason why Pediment should nut advance vested, not a shilling would migrate to Ireland. The sums lent
these mums: it was impossiele not to be aware that, in spite of the by the Committee, over which the Member for Medhurst (Mr. J.
exertions of the Government, the time might come when these Smith) bad presided, had produced great benefit; but still the
Pants would be redly wanted. The very nature of the food on essential measure toe the perrnment improvement of Ireland was
which the people lived wade such an event more than probable ; the enlightenment of the people, and the consequent liberality of
and it would be peculiarly incumbent em those who called for lac. I the Cloven:Went. He was most reluctantly compelled to oppose the
sal assistance, not to press for it when it was pot wanted. It motion.