The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1825-02-18 00:00:00

.+i

.t

t

.PAIILiAMICNT,Any INTELLIGE.

;HOUSE OF LORDS, To uesosT, FEB.
Mr. Adrian, from the Tree:wry, presented the Accountsu,
Russian Dutch Loan ; and ',arrant', and copies of a arrams, au-
thorising compensation to officers of the Court of Sessions, for loss
of fees.
Load SUFFIELD presented a petition from the Justices of
Peace of the County of Norfolk, assembled at the Sessions held at
the Castle, Norwich, praying foe an alteration in the (lame Laws
Ilia Lordship said that he should not trouble the House with many
nheettadons on the subject of the petition ; it was necessary now.
ever for him to state, that it was almost the name as the one be
had intended to present last year, but which, in conseouer.ce. of
wine ivformality, was not presented. He preferred presenting It
this day, because he understood an Hon. 31ember of 012 oWee -
,*use meant this day to introduce there his Bill on the subject. He
• hoped to rice the Bill pass through tlekt HOUR, ' • hut that it would
• be diftvently framed from that which the same Hon. Menthe in-
' troduced last year. Ile (Lord Suffield) should reserve his remarks
on the subject until the Bill came before their Lordships ; end he
should now simply muse that it be received and read. The Peti.
lion, the Noble Lord thee remarked, was drawn up and voted by a
full bench of Magistrates, and was therefore entitled to somede-
gree of respect, partici:holy when it was recollected that the evils
ranking from the game laws and poor laws formed the must in-
teresting subjects of domestic policy. _ _

• The Earl of DARNLEY said, that on the subject of the (hire
Laws generally, it was his opinion that with all the appearance of
protection, they had all the realities of oppression. Ile believed.
that on dela 'object he differed from the Learned and Noble Lord
on the.%Voelsatk. He (Lord Darnley) hoped that examination oe
oath would be taken as to the way in which • those laws were con-
-atantly violated, but that the subject would be inquired into by
wCommittee of their Lordships, as this would be tr.oresatisfies
herr than by its being done before the Muse of Coeemons.
The Petition was then reed and ski on the Table.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY moved, that a mestotets be sent
down to the House of Commons, requesting the attendadce of
certain Members of that noose to give evidence before a Com-
mittee of their Lordships, for tie purpose u! inquiring into the
state of Irish Affairs.
The House then Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, THVASDAY, FI3. 17.
•
. fee Robert Farquhar took the oaths and his seat.
• BRISTOL PORT DUES.
5/It. DOOHERTY presented a Petition from New Rots, against
the Bristol port Dues.—Ordered m boon the table.
EQUITABLE LOAN COMPANY.
Jr. DAVIS brought up the Repert of the Bill for the forma-
tion of the Equitable boon Company.—Reads second time.
TITHES I.A LONDON.
Mr. C. C.ILVERT presented a petition from a district in South-
wark, praying for • revision of the London Tithe System.—Ordered
to tie on the table.
Mr. Ajderrnan WOOD presented two similar petitions from St.
Olive tad C.ipplegste.—Ordered to lie on the table.
SHIP CANAL.
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE presented a petition in favour of the
Grand Ship Canal to connect the Bristol with the EnglisinChannel.
—Ordered to lie on the table.
PERUVIAN MINING COMPANY.
Mt. S. WORTLEY presented a petition, praying for leave to
bring in a Rill to incorporate the Peruvian 51ining Company.—
Qrderod to lie on the able.
*ST. CATHERINE'S DOCKS.
Mr. Alderman BRILfGLS presented a petition hem the Wine
and Spirit Traders, in fattour of St. Catherine's DoCks.—OrdereiS
to lbe on the table.
Sir R. FERGUSON presented a similar petition. Ordered to
lie or she table.
LEYCESTER presented a similar petition.—Ordered to lie
on the table.
Mr. S'rUART presented a petition from the Protestants of Ard-
dough, in the county of Tyrone, stating that a misrepresentation
bad am:eared in pnblic, which 'with:Lied to them that they were
favourable to the Catholic claims. They denied that they were so,
and requested the House to take such measures against further coo-
ressioas as the present exigency of the case appeared to the House
to require.
COUNTY COURTS BILL.
Mr. MUNDY presented a petition front Chesterfield, in favour
of the County Courts Bill.
Mr. H. DRUSI3IOND moved for a return of the quantity of
spirits that raid duty in Ireland and Scotland, from the sth Jan.
1624, to the sth Jan. 1225, distinguishing the quantity mantas:,
lured in each county.
Sir %V. GUISE presented a petition from the county of Glouces-
ter, against the window tax.
Lord LOWTHER presented several petitions in favour of the
County Courts Rill.
Mr.•CALCRAFT, in the absence of Mr. Grenfei, gave notice
of a motion relative to Bank balances.
Mr. H. DAVIES presented a petition from the parish of St. Ste-
phens, in Bristol, against the Catholic claims.
Mr. POWELL presented a petition from Canterbury, against
the duty on sesthorne coals.
Mr. AVODEHOUSE presented a petition from 11'atchet to the
same effect.
ASSESSED TAXES.

Mr. J. 31 A BERLY presented a petition from Abingdon, against
the assessed taxes. The petitioner prayed, that if the whole of
them could not be remitted, the House would at !eat please to
remit that portion of them which related to windows and houses.
He would reserve what he had to offer generally upon this hit-
portant snhject to the 3d of March, when a discussion would
take piece upon it He would simply state at present, that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought, in his opinion, to reduce
this branch of taxation, even according to his own return ; for, by
the returns, it appeared that there had been a surplus of six
millions five hundred thousand pounds. Now the whole of these
taxes, according to the showing of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
did not exceed three: so that the sating could be easily spared
from tellflourplus revenue. That-would be a much more bene-
tical mode of applying x :than to a Sinking Fund, which was a
or I sive fund. Before he sat down, he begged to advert to the I
dillies on • beer, the repeal of which he had before endeavoured
to enforde on the attention of that llonse. lie had before ap.
proached the House, and endeavoured to recommend it to
equalize the duty, so that it might not press, as now, heavily
on the humbler classes. In this he had foiled. He had next en-
dearoured to induce the House to lay the duty on ii alt, which
would be a more equitable mode of taxation. In this, too, lie bud
failed. His next motion would be for a repeal of the Order of
Council which annexed a duty to this article. The poor man
purchased it at a proportionate rate of els. in a given quantity
more than the rich man. This was most unfair ; and he would
therefore couchide by giving notice that on the Bth of March he
would move tor a repeal of the duty on beer.
Mr. HC3IE was of opinion that the thanks of the country was
dee to the Hun. Member, tin the exertions he had already made
upon this subject. He could assure the Chancellor of the Exche-
qeer that nothing would tend more to promote his popularity than a
repeal of the &sewed taxes. The wishes and opinions of the people
were dwelt upon on other occasions : he (Mr. flume) could wish
to see the same attention paid to them on the present, and was satia-
ted if the Right Hon. Gentleman were to make inquiry, and were
to know the mass of distress occasioned throughout the country by
this tee, he would pay attention to it, and endeavour to relieve the
people from it. Throughout the country warrants of distress were
issued on account of the particular tax adverted to by his lion.
Friend. The tax was an unequal and oppressive one, and he hoped
it wo-:itd be altogether repealed.
AL W. RIVLEY 'presented a petition from Newcastle,
signed by tight hundred persons, praying for a repeal of the
present ditty on stamp rtreipts.
a. Mr. 1101.31 ES laid on the table papers containing the charges
of the Ordnance department for the bind service.
CATHOLIC ASSOCIATION.
Mr. BROD:MA:IL—SIN .1 hold in my hand a petition, which,
whether I consider the qiuirtet from which it proceeds, or the ob-
jects of its prayer, or the crisis at wrhieh it is presented, merits no
smithery degree of :mention trotu the House. (Hear, hear.) In
presenting it to the House, it is not my intention or desire to renew
the discussion which has lately passed over, and which was pro-
tracted to an unusual length, though not to a length beyond what its
importance demanded. It is simply my wish to state to the House
the object and the prayer of thee ptitioners. The petition is signed
by a great number of individua Irina belong to an Association,
but who approach this House in the character and capacity of in-
dividuals—knowing well that it is their duty to approach this
Meuse in that character only, as this House does not entertain pe-
titions from any body of persons, except such body be invested with
the chartered rights of a Corporation. The petition is signed by
Peen, by the suns qr Peers, and many other persons of distin-
guished though aerator rank to theus--by persona of eminent
talent, and of great, very great, influence. (dear, hear.) Among,
the signatures there are those of six Prelates of the Roman Catholic
Cbiarth of Ireland, three Archbishops, and three Bishote.
hey pray that a Bill, which they understand to be in pro-
gress through this House, which would deprive them of the
constitutional right of meeting, of petitioning, and of complain-
ing might nut be suffered to pass into a low. They solemnly de-
class. sod they offer to support it by the most satisfactory testimony,
that there has not been a single proceeding of theirs, either by act
or by 4eelaration, from the formation of the Association to the
present ter, which has been calculated to excite alarm or provoke
animosities. (Hear, hear.) They respectfully hope, that if the Bill
which has been introduced should pass into a law—before it should
pass into a law, they, at least, might not be deprived of that va-
luable, sacred, and impreecriptible right of the subject, to be heard
against a law which charges him with misconduct, and which re-
stricts his constitutional liberty, without giving hun an opportunity
of vindication. Surely they who have been so anxious in passing
this Bill, cannot, in fairness, object to a full inquiry—to a short,
eigbreas scrutiny, as to the propriety of the measure. Those who
are so ready totring charges should rather court that inquiry than
seek to avoid it. Their refusal to do so would he the same thing
as laying to the Catholics " We will not hear you—we have made
up our minas, so that whatever you say to vindicate yourselves can
have no avail—can be of no use whatever." This would be an
act of inljustire under any circumstances ; but en an occasion whets
the liberties of the subject were about to he restricted, and even the
privilege of complaint about to be abridged, I have too high a
eurfader.ce in the fairness of the House to think that it would lend
Itself to the retusal of so reasonable a request. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman cuacluded hey presenting the petition, the last

~~.. ..

\

anxious tf) take this opportunity of explaining the pl:ratc. "by
the hatred you bear to Orangemen." He was enabled to states Oa
the authority of • member of that Association, that the construc-
tion was quite different from that which had been assigned to it
by the Hon. Members opposite. It had been attempted to con-
found Orangemen and Privestants, and it hsd been asserted. that
what had had been applied to one was meant to extend to another.
This he was prepared to deny, on the most satisfactory authority.
The Orangemen had cot up plots of disturbance. to entrap the inno-
cent Catholic, end the expression was applied to the haired which
41 was their duty to entertain for all plots and attempt to
Infringe upon the laws, or disturb the peace of the country. (Hear.)
He begged leave to advert to a letter he bad received front a gentle-
man of high respectability in Ireland, Cluttrative of the subject'
and which went to offer some remarks upon the statements made
in the speech with which the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland had
thought proper to introduce the measure relative to the Catholic
Association. The Hon. Member then proceeded to read an ex-
tract front the letter which he held in his-hand, but was called to
order by
The SPEAKER, who informed him that it was not competent
to him to read any expression of opinion the letter might contain,
upon speeches of lion. Members spoken in that House.
dtr. HUME then proceeded.—He would put it in another way,
and from his own authority he would inform the Wove, that he
believed, from the information which had been conveyed to hini,that
all the material statements of the speech of the lion. Secretary fur
Ireland could be proved to be utterly groundle4. upon oath and at
the bar of thellicuse, were permission anCriled to the Roman Ca-
tholics to come before the House fat the purpose, in acenttlance
with the prayer of their petition. He could not aria eulogising
the conduct of the Catholic Association in the present juncture;
and it was his hope. that the House would pay that attention to
their requeet, which their conduct, no leas than the nature of that
request, entitled it to, and permit them to be heard by witnesses
and Counsel, against the imputations sought to be cast on them by
the framers of the measure fur the Suppression of Unlawful Asso-
ciations in Ireland.
Mr. BROLIJII.aIII rose to present a petition from nine hundred
persons. inhabitants of the town of Newry. in Ireland. in favour
of the Catholic Association. The prayer of the petitioners was,
that the House would pause, before they consented to any mea-
sures levelled against the Catholic Association, of which many of
the petitioners were members, and which they further stated to
possess the confidence of the Roman. Catholics of Ireland. They
then proceeded, in respectful terms, to say,—and here the lion.
and Learned Member could not avoid expressing his appitthation
lief the very becoming language of the petition,—they proceeded to
that they, in common with the Catholics of Ireland gewerally,
had waited for years and in silence for the relief which they had in.
(Weed a hope would have been afforded them ; but that now see-
ing no end to the period of their exclusion front the benefits of the
Constitution, and looking upon their prospects as hopeless without
exertion on their parts. they had been compelled it associate to-
gether for mntual defence, and for the putpoae of pressing noon
the consideration of Parliament their claims to relief. The Hon.
Member trusted the House would listen to the prayer of this peti-
tion, and not substitute a species of gagging for the relief sought,
or go on to enact laws not only encroaching on the precincts of the
Constitution, but subversive of the peace of the realm. The peti-
tion then proceeded in its prayer, to entreat' that those rights might
be reittured to the Catholics, of which their ancestors had been de-
prived, not merely in defiance of the general principles of justice,
bet in direct violation of a solemn compact entered into with the
parties interested. Br acceding to this request, the petitioners
conceived that the Catholic Association would be rendered
unnecessary, and that that peace and tranquillity would be made
permanent, which the efforts of the Association had produced.
The Honourable anti Learned Member wished it to co the House
as his opinion, that there never had been a petition, which, looking
to vs spirit, and the terms in which it was expres•cd, was more un-
exceptionable, moderate, and reasonable, than the present. With
regard to the former petition which he bad just before presented to
the Howie, he should to-morrow move upon it. that the prayer of
the petition be taken into consideration. Ile hoped that, as this
was a matter of great importance, the votes of the House would
_contain the petition, that it might be considered at as early an
hour as was possible, and he trusted. as, the second rending of the
Honourable Secretary's (Mr. Goulburn'o) Bill took place on 3lon-
day, whatever Orders of the Day existed for rn-morrow,. Gentle-
men would consent to their postponerne-t, in order that suchiniglit
be the can. _

}

A desultory conversation with Ministers ensued hat ♦ e could
not collect that ■ny thing conclusive with respect to the Learned
I.letitlentan's proposition was determined on.
OA ME LANVS. . _

Mr. S. WORTLEY rose ;;call the attention of the House to
the subject of hit proposed alteration in the Game Laws, but owing
to the noise o,:casioncd by Members leaving the House. we were
unable to brae distinctly the Honourable Member's observations.
We understood him to say, that the provisions of the 11111 lie
wished to present to the House were similar to those contained in
that which had been negatived last year ; that they embraced no
alteration in the existing laws with respect to the ownership of the
Game, and went to legalize the sale of it. He concluded by moving
for leave to bring in a Rill to amend the laws made for the preser-
vation of game.
Sir JOHN SHELLEY hoped the Honourable Meniher for
Yotkthlre irttuld permit a clear fortnight to elapsebetween the first
and third reading of the Bill, in order to give country gentlemen,
most interested in the measure, time to attend the House. On that
understanding, he should reserve his opposition to the measure till
then. _ _

A MEMBER, who spoke from under the Gallery. expressed his
determination to oppose the measure in fimine. It had already
been discussed and rejected by a mniority of that House in the most
unequivocal manner. Under such circumstances, he wished to
have no farther attempt at interference with the existing laws, and
he should endeavour to stifle the measure in its birth. It was his
wish to prevent the introduction of the measure, if possible ; hut, if
it were introduced, he should oppose its passing into a law.
Mr. R. 170LBORNE was of opinion the proposed Bill, judging
from the lion. Member's exposition of its nature, would rather tend
to aggravate than alleviate the evils complained of. Ile thought
the legalization of the sale of game, as contemplated, would be
creating a market which would contribute to render poaching easy
of accomplishment, difficult of detection, and secure of reward.
Mr. CURIVEN was in favour of the proposed alteration.
Mr. PEEL thought the best law on the subject would be that
which would effectually prevent poaching. lie was most desirous
of making an experiment, to see what might be done by legalizing
the sale of game, than by disturbing the proprietorship in game.
The suhiect will one full of difficulties, on whatever side approach-
ed, and he was doubtful whether a change so extensive as that con.
templated by the lion. Member for Yorkshire would be unattended
by serious dangers. He was desirous that a measure might be in.
traduced. enabling the present proprietors to dispose of their game.
He thought it might be worth while to try such a measure for two
or three years ; if it did nut succeed, an alteration might be resorted
to. However, he would support the lion. Member's motion, on
the IMMO grounds as he supported it last Session.
Mr. DENISON thought the Member tbr Yorkshire should
avoid anything like precipitancy in a case such as the present. Ile
wished to know whether lie intended to introduce any clause against
the use of man-traps and spring-guns, those horrible engines for
the preservation of game, which were a dinyence to those who used
them, and the country that tolerated their existence.
Dl r. [MUKHA Rl' abhorred the use of those engines mentioned
by the Hon. Member for Surrey (Mr. Denison). He thought the
use of them decidedly illegal. A foreigner visiting our shores, and
learning the existence of such an usage, would be astonished at the
barbarism of the country capable of permitting such a violation of
every principle of humanity. He held that those engines were per.
fectly unnecessary to the preservation of game, but if they were
not so, lie would not the less condemn and deprecate their use.—
Mr. HOLM E SUMNER would oppose tloe Bill.
31r. BRIO thought the practice alluded to by lionourable
Members odious, and deserving universal execration. If the
Member for Yorkshire would introduce • clause to alter the bar-
barous practice, he would give it his best support.
Mr. PEEL disclaimed any approbation of the use of man-traps
or spring-guns for the preservation of game. Ile wished the sale
of game to be legalized, that the present high bounties which went
to the encouragement of poaching might he removed. lie adopted
this ground on the same principle as lie approved of reducing the
excise duties as far as was practicable, for the purpose of lessening
the crime of smuggling. lie thought a law to legalize the sale of
game, and enable the legitimate proprietors to bring it lam the
market in sufficient quantities, would have the effect of lessening
1 poaching and the undue sale of game. Ile begged lion. Mem.
hers to recollect, that when lie addressed the House spring-guns had
nut been mentioned. lie could never give his approbation to the
ure of them.

Sir J. SHELL LI made a few observations, which did not reach
thegallery.
Sir It. HERRING was of opinion that no man had a right to;set a
mortal engine, which might bare the effect of depriving a fellow-
creature of life, merely on the pretence of preserving his game. A
person so acting would, in the event of a fatal occurrence, in his
opinion, be guilty of murder. He agreed with the Right lion.
Secretary of State for the Home Department in his wish fur an
Act of Parliament legalizing the sale of game.
Mr. J. CWIPPS wished the Member fur Yorkshire to consider'
whether he could not accede to the proposition of the lion. the
Secretary of State fur the Home Department.
Mr. L. PALMER. attributed the great increase of poaching
during the last twenty.five years to the inadequate rate of wages'
paid to the working classes in the country. While the reward of
their labour was so nicely apportioned to the mere support of the
animal functions, poaching would prevail, and contiiitie till the si-
tuation of the working classes was rendered more satisfactory.
Mr. S. WORTLEY was free to confer he had made use of
spring guns, and experienced their beneficial effects in preventing
the occurrence of many fatal scenes, by deterring the poacher from
his unlawful occepation, and consequently preventing dangerous
reneontres, which would in all probability have otherwise occurred.
If the measure were narrowed within the limits proposed by the
Hon. Secretary, he for one would wash his hands of it. Ile would
take no further interest in a measure which would have only for its
object legalizing the sale of game. Gentlemen who opposed the
iptroductiun of his Rill had said that its adoption would put an end
Nthe pleasures of sporting,. and that if every freehold proprietor
were allowed to kill game, it would become his interest to destroy
the fetes which afforded those gentlemen an opportunity to enjoy field
spore. He thought this a perfectly chimerical apprehension.
lox-hunting stood upon LW. of its own, and wherever a landed

I

w .

~.

present us..
~t disgraceful
tinue his exertions. Ile wished the question to undergo s full and
fair dismission. It was the opinion of' many individtails that the
matter was one of no consequence or importance. He thought it
one of great moment. and that the tini‘ had arrived to conic to a de-
termination. It was the opinion of eves-Y*lle that simitt:iing must be
done. The principles of the measure he proposed wore these —lst,
that every mun shrubd possess the right of killing game on his own
lond-2d. he wished to protect game proprietors, tot colt against
the nightly poacher, but the trespasser by day. The present law
of trespau was wholly ineffectue-11, he proposed a legalize the
sale of game. The lion. Member was of opinion ti.e ottyner this
subject was disetssed the better. He requested that the question
Wight not be considered worthy of being laughed at, but one which
should receive a proper -degree of serious and patient attention at
their hands.

Sir I.II,OMAS BARING approved of the pnociplerf the Right
Honourable Secretary fur the flame Department. Legalizing the
sale of.game was, lie thought, the most effectual method to put an
end to the practice of poaching ; and to of that most desirable
object, he would consent to the destruction of game frtmi one end of
the kingdom to the other.
Leave was then given to briny( in the Bill.
, TURN PI KK LAWS.
Lord LOWTRER, in pursuance of previous notice. rose to
move for the sppoininnnt of a Committee to inquire into the matt
of the different turnpike trusts in the county of Middlesex, which
were immediately connected with the Metropolis. His object was
to procure a consolidation of the laws relating to these turnpike
trusts, which pressed so severely upon the poor and industrious,
and to ascertain whether some mode might t:ot be devised winch
would relieve them from a great portion of the contributions yearly
levied upon them at these vexatious gates. Hun. Gentlemen might
not, perhaps, be aware that on one road, extending only about ten
miler from London, there was raised from the public, if he included
the bridges, a sum of 11.10,8081. Sono revision of the laws which
regulated the disposal of such an amount was, he thought, become
necessary. But as the motion was likely to be resisted, he would
state a few other facts for the w.tvnnation of the House, which
would, he thought, fully satisfy them that the proposed inquiry
would he productive of benefit to the public. (Hear.) He had at
various times given the bultiect a good deal of consideration, and
been enabled to coilect eerie curious information respecting the
management of the trusts in the immediate vicinity of the metro.
polis. i'or instance, on one road, of a distance of about three miles
and a half north of London, of which that called the City-road
formed • part, there were no less than three Acts of Parliament,
three sets of trustees, mai three establishments, each containing a
full complement of treasurers, secretaries, clerks, surveyors, sub-
surveyors. inspectors, and all the variety of other names under
which these trusts contrive to secure to themselves the monies
which Acts of Parliament, as they at present stand, throw into
their hands. Indeed he thought he would not go beyond the truth,
if he asserted that 'vise-half of all the /Urns collected in this
manner passed into the pockets of these officers, in the shape of
salaries and petqouittes. Another inconvenience, lie would here
observe- attending these trusts, was, that every four or live years
they were obliged to procure new Acts of Parliament to niter and
amend the old ones. lie had been told, upon good authority, that
in one district the sum of 60001. • year had been raised upon gates
situated in lanes ; and that, notwithstanding the collection of so
large • sum, these lanes were, in almost every instance, nearly im.
passable. (Hear, hear.) But it he was so fortunate as to obtain
the appoinment of a Committee, he trusted that these, and many
other imperfections, would be brought to light. Fur it was not
alone the disposal of these enormous annual sums that he objected
to—he objected to the practice of borrowing, which prevailed to an
alarming extent ! Indeed, in one trust he had heard of, the trustees
had lately raised no less a stun than fortneen thousand pounds, by
way of annuity, for 21 years certain, and that too at an interest of 10
per cent. ; a bargain of no tufting advantsre, lie could tell the
House, in such transits these. (A laugh, and cries of hear, hear.)
Magistates too art frequently as treasurers, without salaries they
tell us, and from pure disinterested regard to the interests of the
public. They may nor.eceive salaries, but they always contrive to
retain little trifling balances in their hands, of from seven to eight
thousand pounds, which they know very well 'how to employ ; in-
deed, if it were not an object, why, he would ask, do they cling
with such pertinacity to their seats? (Hear, heir.) There was
another trust lie would mention while upon this subject—the
Highgate and Hampstead ; there they had an income of no less
than 17,000 pounds a year ; and yet in the year 1820, they had
oared a debt of 7,500 pounds ; and in the year 1(122 it amounted
to no less than twenty.one thousand pounds. lie had the curiosity '
to look a little into the manner in which such sums were expended,
and he would mention one, as a sample to the House, "I'o 3.700!. for
incidents." t hear, hear.) Surely, Hon. Gentlemen could not re.
Pose their mascot to look a little into these matters, when such ex.
traordinary items were introduced, and passed without comment.
He perhaps should not tray wholly without comment ; but if any
person in the vicinity showed, disposition to Inquire into the ex.l
penditure of the tolls, they had a method of quieting him, by get.
ting him appointed a zteeial Juror. indeed, when the Hon. Mem-
leer for Aberdeen Moved for a Return of those whose:red as Special
Jurors, it was found that great numbers of those interested in this
trust were named as those who served on Special Juries. The City
of London, too, comes in for its share of the imposition; for, by '
express agreement, one half of all the extra toll taken pa Sundays
goes into the office of its Chamberlain. The Bill which sappeats
these practices expires next autumn, and lie hoped the House
would, from what he had stated, inquire into the disposal of such
revenues, before it consented again to place them in irresponsible
hands. Indeed, if they did not take some measure to put a stop to
the growing evil of turnpikes, they wotild hastily be able to move a
yard from their doors without being dbliged to pass through one of
these vexatious and unnecessary 'impediments. On a road, of which
Bishops to forms a pan, he perceived there was a clause to put up
a gate alinott in the cenne of the City of London. On the Us-
hedge 'road, the Edgware, the Harrow, the most flimsy pretexts were
laid hold of to put tip a gate. On the Harrow road, where a large
sum, 2 or 3,000!. a year, he believed, had been left by a patriotic
brewer for the repairs of the road, the trustees had contrived to in.
car a large debt, and the rind was a ruin. The treasurers of all
these roads held large balances in hand, with which they discounted
bills, and then managed to pay in their receipts two or three days
before the meeting of the trustees. He called upon the House to
inquire into the truth of these statements ; he called Wpon Parlia-
ment to interfere, and not suffer the metropolis to be surrounded
with these useless and vexatious impedimenta. There was one
road he would instance—Kenaingron—e3 an illustration of the be.
netit of Parliamentary interference. A Bill last year had been
thrown out; the trustees knew very well right from wrong; they
knew that public attention was fixed upon their proceedings;
they found themselves deprived of the protection of Psrliameht ;
and what was the consequence ? They have taken the money out of !
the hones of their treasurer, they have paid off their debt, and
they have reduced their toll. It so much hail been done here, '
with the rod held over their heads, how much more might we
not anticipate from the interference of Parliament? On the
whole road heading from llyde Park-corner, and extending
about twenty-two miles, lie perceived by a Return which
he held in his hand, that the tolls produced 80,815/. a-year, and
that it was divided into thirteen trusts, and had seventy-six gates.
lie spoke it from the best authority that 40,000!. would be more than
sufficient for every expense. ( Hear.) It was his intention to pro-
pose that at all events the gates within two or three miles of London
shoull be removed. Ile was sure the south side of the Thames
would be hostile to this proposal, but he hoped they would at all
events try how it worked on this side of the water. lie had now
only to say, that he proposed dividing the trusts into districts, un-
der the superintendence of fifteen gentlemen of the county, not
bring treasurers, and ten Parliamentary Commisaibncrs responsi-
ble for the expenditure of their revenue.
Sir EDWARD KNATCIinuEI. thought the Noble Lad hail
made out,a good case for the interference of the (louse. A large
sun', it appeared, was annually collected on the nada from Hyde
l'ark-corner, and as it did not appear satisfactorily how it was ex.
pearled, he thought himselfbound to give die Noble Lord his sup-
port. But although he generally aummated Government, if it was
the Noble Lord's intention to throw the turnpikes into the hands
of Government, he could nut give his consent. There was a Mr.
M'Adam employed in Government works, and if it was the Waco-
lion to make him principal auperintendent of turnpike roads, the
Noble Lord's proposal would become a job. If it ends so he would
moose it, but present lie saw good grounds fur seconding the
motion.

Mr. HOLME SUMNER said, the Noble Lord hal asserted,
without good reason, that this measure would be opposed by the
county of Surrey. Ile should be unworthy of holding a place in
that House, if he refused his assent to the proposition of the Noble
Lord, unless be was preps ea to controvert his statements.
Mr. HU3II; thought it would benefit the public if every turn-
pike wax removed three miles front the bridges. The Noble Lord's
motion was limited to the north of London. He did not see any
reason why the inquiry should not, extend to the south. There
were turnpikes in the very centre of London. lie would remove
then, altogether. Two hundred thousand pounds, he understood,
were levied within four miles of town, while sixty or seventy
thousand would be sufficient, if tolls were dore away with, and an
assessment laid upon the inhabitants. lie concluded by moving,
as an amendment, that the Committee take into their consideration
the state of the turnpike roads within ten miles of London.
Mr. MA ISCHIA' seconded the amendment. Ile thought
the public were indebted to these who had brought this
question under consideration. From the mule of his inqui-
ries, Kent, Surrey, and Sussex would all be benefited by a
change in the constitution of turnpike trusts. In a meeting at
Croydon, where Sir Thomas Turton and several other great men
were present, it was proposed and debated for some time, whether
it would be expedient to try a mile of road upon the plan of AIL
M•aidimi ? Ile happened to be present, and took some part in the
discussion ; and the consequence was, that, alter four hours con-
tention, they agreed to 31•Adamise the whole line of rto miles of
load. lie mentioned this to show the ignorance and prejudice of
those trustees, for the House would probably hardly credit it, that
this doubt of the propriety of Mr. M•Adam's plan existed, after
it had been extended over every part of the kingdom. Ile wished
the Noble Lord's Committee to take a wider field of inquiry, and
would therefore give the amendment his humble support.
Sir T. HARING said, the Noble Lord appeared to have matte
himself master of the subject, and he thought he had acted wisely
in limiting the inquiry because a case so strong could be made out
at once as would entitle them to proceed with confidence to the
others. One million and a half of money, for so much he under-
stood the turnpikes produced, was an alarming sum to be disposed
of annually by irresponsible agents, and certainly called for imme-
diate inquiry. He knew a rood of ten miles, on which there were

..

x't's •

1,04.10 t
11.,"

t,.
receiving a lark, stun dratitlij, and let not one
'gentlemen interfered in its chaposial, the whole
divided among a few individuals for their own
ard not more than tile or six hundred expended upon the
road. He_ fully anticipated good effects flom the Irtqun and
trusted that the gates would be removed to such a distanze :hat a
person would not be compelled to pay a heavy tax the moment
they ventured to put their heads out of London.
Mr. PELHAM, we understood, addressed the House, but he
was inatttlib:e in the gallery.
Mr. T. WILSON was of opinion, that the more extended the
'lnquiry the less would be the benefit. All turnpikes should not he
condemned, for he knew one in Essex where a horse and cart might
go thirty miles upon a tine road for three halfpence; nor should
they be considered as wasteful and dishonest. because a larger shut
might be expended in one place than in another. The material in
one place east more than in another; labour is often higher; be-
' sides a nutnber of trusts counteract each other, and lead to a mul-
tiplication of gates, and of course an inc.-ease of charge.
Alr. 1101,31 E sill NER explained.
Mr. ISFNETT, of Wiltshim. made some observations which a
noise in the gallery prevented us from hearing.
The SPEAKER was about to put the question, when
Mr. Alderman II EVGATE rose, to contend that the inquiry
should not go beyond the immetiiate vicinity of the metropolis. He
obtectcd also to the appointment of Parliamentary Conmussioners.
They lend, ih the case of the Holyitead Road, made one part of it
about the very worst in England.
Sir H. PARNELL defended the Parliamentary Commissioners,
and asserted that the failure of the work was owing to the superin-
tendence being taken away from the tionomissirners and pl iced in
the hands of individuals.

1.7 I;
Alderman 14 , i;A , explained.
The SPEAKER then put the Amendment, that a Committee
be appointed to inquire into the receipts, :management. anti ea-
penditure of the different Turnpike Trusts x :thin te:s miles of the
etropol is.
It was carried, and the Committee appointed accordingly.
STATE OF IRELAND.
Mr. GOULBURN rose to move that a Select Committee be sp.
pointed to inquire into the state of Ireland, and more particularly
into the causes relating to the late disturbances in that part of the
United Kingdom, and to report their olosereations to the House.
It would be in the recollection of the House, that when the Coin.
mittee was appointed last Session to inquire into the state of Ire-
land. their powers of inquiry were restricted topartieular districts ;It
having, however, in the course of those inquiries been foiled desir-
able to extend them to other parts of that kingdom, he now pro.
posed that a Committee should be appointed whose powers should
extend to the whole of Ireland. With respect to the constitution
of the Committee, he should propose some alterations. as well in
the members composing it, as in the objects of their duties. So
long as those objects were confined to particular districts, it eras
not thought necessary to appoint Gentlemen on the Committee who
were unconnected with those parts; but now that the inquiry was
to relate to all the provinces of the kingdom, he was sure the !fosse
would see the propriety of adding Gentlemen to the Committee from
each province.
Lord A LTIIORP rose to second the motion. Ile observed that
when the Committee of last year was moved for, he expressed his
opinion that its inquiries should extend over the whole of Ireland,
and he could have wished that that power had been given to them ;
but lie was however glad to rind that such a measure was at length
to be adopted, and he most cordially gave it his support, as he was
assured it would be conducive of touch good to that part of the
United Kingdom.
....... ....—_. _ .

Mr. (301.71,8 URN said, that although he was certair.ly opposed
to the proposition last year fur extending the inquiries of the Com-
mittee over the whole of Ireland, yet the Noble Lord would recol-
lect that he still admitted. that if, in the course of the inquiries of
that Committee, it should appear necessary to carry the inquiry
further, he should then agreeto that extension ; he could not there-
fore allow his Noble Friend the entire credit of the extension cow
proposed to be given.
3lr. S. RICE hoped that out of doors the increase of the
Members of the Committee now about to be appointed would be
understood as being the necessary consequence of the labours of the
Committee being extended, and not their powers enlarged. lie
was anxious that this should be properly understood ; otheririse, a
delusion might go abroad which would be prejudicial to the exer-
tions of the Committee, and throw obstacles in the way of a troll and
impartial inquiry. Ile was quite satisfied of the proprier7 of add-
ing to the numbers of the Committee, now that the inquiry was to
go further. For his part, he could have most readily agreed to a
Committee composed of English Members entirely, and that it it
were thought necessary to hare the assistance of any Irish Member,
he should have been better pleased with their being examined its
witnesses. But Es is was considered proper to have Irish .lent-
berg, he thought that in order that the Committee night do the
greatest possible good, there ought to be some appointed from all
the provinces in Ireland. _ _

The motion was then agreed to, and a Committee Was appointed
accordingly.
THE USURY LAWS.
Mr. Sergeant ONSLOW moved the order of the dray for the
second reading of the Usury Laws Repeal Bill.
3lr. CA I.A2RA FT said, that although he entertained very strong •
objections to the measure contemplated by the present Bill, yet he
should not now have troubled the House, it rather strong language
had not been held towards him and those Honourable Itiends who
agreed with hint, as if they were all too ignorant to beets:in opinion
upon the subject, and knew less [trout what concerned their own
immediate interests than any other Honourable Members in that
House. Ile thought it a very rational argument to urge spinet this
Bill, that matters had gone on for so many years in this country
with such undeviating prosperity, that dipttel was continutdly ac-
cumulating, and every branch of manufacture and commerce ex-
tending itself. He thought these facts of themselves afforded a
very strong prima
,/'ark case against changing the existing taw.
But he was told that upon general political principles it was ab-
solutely necessary. Now, if the House were to argue upon these
principles, he had no doubt that the theory was Hi:mom-able
and Learned Friend, and that generally speaking, it vas Itite
right to leave men perfectly free to do whatever they pleased with
what belonged to them. But he apprehended that there was no
political theory so correct as that this rule 'could be bid down,
namely, that it was impossible fur any cases to occur that should
form an exception front the general principle. Did not Honour.
able Members know that in many cases restrictions were laid on
the general rights of men, where those restrictions tended to the
general good ? Did they not know that in this metropolis there
were laws regulating the manner in which a man shall btiltl his own
house, and that when a person was desirous tif raising a house
against that of another man's, lie was obliged to build what was
called the party wall, of a peculiar thickness, and with peculiar
materials ? Now he (Mr. Calm()) would contend that tbis was
an exception to the general rule, and that it was an interference
with a mans private property. But what did Honourable !lim-
bos say to the laws against gaming ? There the law had laid
some very salutary restrictions, both upon . the men keeping the
house and those who resorted to it to play. Why, but a few days
since he had read the scmence of the Court of 'King's Bench against
a person who was convicted of keeping a house of this description,
where he was actually tined 5,000/. Now, if this man was of the
same opinion with his Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr.
Sergeant Onslow) he might have said to the Lord Chief.,Justmet—
" This is an unjust violation of a general political princiele, which
admits every man to do as he pleases with his 'own, and you have
no right to impose any tine upon me." lie (Mr. Calash) thought
these were two pregnant instances where the Legislature had
thought proper to interfere with the private property of individuals.
But his Honourable and Learned Friend had told them that they
did not know their own interests, and at the same time he declared
it to be an unfair bonus to the landed property. He and his friends
were told that the landed men (rot it was taken forgranted that they
were always the persons who borrowed) did not know their own
interests. He could not exactly comprehend this; but he would
contend that the present law did-not give any bonus to the landed
proprietors. But what was relied principally upon was the great
inconvenience arising out of laws awn icing the general right. Ile
contended that these laws were the exception, and not the general
rule. If lion. Members would have the whole history downwards
of these laws, they would find that the country flourished the more
as the rate of interest was reauceti by Statute; and it ..bas under
these lArs, as they now existed, that the country had risen to its
present state of prosperity. If the right of persons over their own
property were not to be interfered with, what was to become of a
certain person's measure in another place, who was about to inter-
fere so extensively with these individual rights ? What would be-
come of the Bubble Act? But was there nothing in experience,
nothing in wealth, nothing in prosperity, nothing in greatness ?
Let any man show him, that by removing these laws we could be
going on in a more prosperous comae than under the existing laws.
Ile would say that all the able writers on this great question had
proved the law against usury to be wholesome and good, and that
the alteration of it would In hurtful to those who had occasion to
borrow money at interest.
Mr. H U3I E argued in support of the Rill. The Hon. Member
who had just sat down urgal, as one reason why the Bill should
not pass, that we were now going on prosperously. IVhy, asked
his lion. Friend, should the present law be repealed when we have
been thriving so many years under it ? Ile (Mr. flume) would
ask, had we not also been thriving under all other kinds of restrict
tions ? and yet his Majesty's Ministers, and even his Majesty, in a
Speech front the Throne, had recommended that those restrictions
should be dune away with. The lion. Uentleman then contended,
that the cases which had been mentioned by his lion. Friend were
totally dissimilar from the one now under discussion—that, with
regard to the Building Act, the restrictions were to prevent one per-
son from doing injury to another ; but, in the case of borrow.
ing and lending money, the parties, if no Usury Laws existed,
would come to a mutual agreement, and consequently no in.
jury could occur that required the intervention of the le:gislature.
As to the law against gaming, he considered it quite a distinct
question ; it always appeared to him that every government found
tt incumbent to attend to the morals of the country. It was nut a
question of pounds, shillings, and pence,. but entirely one of morals.
All that he wished was, that a man might be at liberty to get rid
of his money in such a manner as lie thought best. With regard
to the measure plluded to, as about to be brought forward by the
wisest man io the kingdom, he (Mr. flume) thought that it was as
foolish as any measure c-mld be; and he should be very much
astonished, indeed, if, in the event of its coming before that House,
it did not experience the fate it really deserved, and should be
dismissed, never to be heard of again. 'Yet he was quite ready to
admit that in these schemes that came before the public there was
much of trick practised upon individuals, and the conduct of those
persons of rank and respectnbility who lent their names to these trans-
actions, anti afterwards lat them, he shou Id say was most insufferable.
But he thought that the proposition alluded to as being intended to
be brought forward in another place,where persons would be required
to pay thrne.feurths of the amount of their subscription towards a

.. ..
THE 1311,ITISil PIfESS, • '
'A CE. clause of wtiich was read—praying that the Catholic Association proprietor, who keeps a pack of los-Mends, takes the ft-et:bit to be one hundred gates. receii
might be heard by Counsel at the Bar of the House, and that, if on good terms with his neighbours, he will not nod the foxes de- of the neighbouring gent
i. 17. necessary. witnesses should be enstnined to sustain their state. situ fur the purpose of preserving a few pheasants. lie would not of the receipts beini; div
ments.-0-tiered to be laid on the Table, and printed. pledge himself to tientlenten to discontinue his pursuit of this objet benefit, sad not more du
in caw of non-success in the present instance. As long as hews the rood. _He fully anticip
.ccounts.of the Mr. HUME thought the petitions was oast entitled to the
s an.ar,ts, au. markei and most favourable attention of the House. lie was 'Cisme Laws in their present disgraceful state, he would not chicon. trusted that the gates wo
_ ..._ I .i...... 1... -.........-_ lA,. —, I—.l A... .....n1; sn en Sllnlanfln a 1.111 ~..1 n•rariet ratilltl r • nit It. ent