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London, England, 1825-02-26 00:00:00

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not be placed there by those who sought to make the law. But,
said the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. S. Rice), the Orange Associa-
tion are allowed to proceed, and no one comes forward to arrest
their steps. Was it fair in that lionentrable Gentleman to make
such a charge against the Government--a charge of wishing to sup.
press the one. and of allowing the other to flourish—a charge of
partiality which was most foreign to them ? Another objection to
the Dill was, that it permitted one Magistrate to act under It, in-
stead of two or tnore ; and this, it wss contended, was an unpre-
cedented act. The Honourable Gentleman who made this objec-
tion, and the Rouse should recollect, that the Act professed to be
only as anisedment on the Convention Act of 179-2. The same
powers were given to Magistrates by that Act; there was then at
least i_precedent for so doing. But by the Convention, cot only
every Jostice of the Peace, but every peace officer, was empowered
to enter a house and disperse an assembly—by this Bill such power
was taken from the peace officer and confined to that class of persons
whose station, of life guaranteed for them that they would not inter-
fere unnecessarily, and in them the powers might be safely confided.
if the Bill, however, were found too severe in any of its clauses. he
(Mr. Goullitirti) rats ready and willing to admit any atnendments
that Would not destroy Its *frees, and he begged to remind the
tieatlemen of the House of Commons, that it was their duty to
propose such amendments, if they thought them noceve-y. With
respect to the tither parts of the speech of the Honourable Member
for Limerick, they had been so ably replied to by another libnout-
able Member (Mr. Dogherty) that he (Mr. Goulbern) felt it
unnecessary to notice it further. He was anxious. however, to
allude to one particulebranch of the subject that had been treated
of in the course of the debate. The Irish Government had been
charged with not using sufficient promptness in removing a ma.
gistrate against whom a verdict had been found ; ,he alluded to the
case of Lawrence Dempster. The opinion of the dudge who tried
that case had been taken by the Chancellor as to whether he was
called upon to interfere, and the Judge had stated that it was not.
On this opidion the Chancellor had acted ; but the Chancellor, in
Other cases that had occurred, had bad no hesitation in removing
the parties against whom verdicts had been found. It was now no-
minee for him (Mr. Goulburn) tO allude to the amertioris that had
been thrown out against a learned Irish Judge, Baron VOL-Hand.
He wished that that Learited Baron were present to retitle the
charges that had been made against him, and to correct-the mis-
statements that had been made to the Rouse by an Honourable and
Learned Gentleman on the other tide of the house, and which he
(Mr. GOelhtern) asserted, were altogether void of foundation. The
Learned Illember(Mr. brougham) had charged that Judge with
acting unjustly, in preventing a question from being answered by a
witness on a trial for murder. The question to the witness was—
". Why did you not before this give the evidence you were now
giving ?" On this subject he (Mr. Goulburn) had had a communi-
cation with the Learned Judge; he would not trouble the House
with the whole of the evidence on the trial, but confine himself
men ly tO the case in point. There were four Counsel engaged for
the.prosecutioo on that trial—Messrs. Gilmore, Ford, 011-anion,
and another. Ile had ascertained from the two former of those
gentlemen that no great question was ever objected to, arid that no
teach question was ever asked ; and he had received the same
assurance from the Learned Judge. " The whole charge," says
the Learned Baron, " of my having objected to allow a question
to be answered, is altogether without foundation." (Hear, hear.)
Again the Judge on the trial alluded to delivered a most elabo-
rate charge to the Jury ; so much so, that Mr. O'llanlon, one of
the Counsel for the prosecution, remarked to a gentleman near him,
" I wonder why his Lordship takes so much trouble when the case
is so clear." The House had, therefore, the testimony of the
Judge, the Counsel Tor the prosecution, and also of a third person.
Who then doubted that the charge against the Judge is without
foundation ? The Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham)
ought to have been better informed on the subject before he had
brovght forward the charge.
Mr. BROUGHAM—My information came from one of the
Counsel for the prosecution.
Mr. GOULBU RN continued—Another cherge wu made against
the same Learned Baron, that in a cause he had refused to allow a
Counsel to be sent for, and that when the Counsel did come, he re-
fused to allow him to proceed. On this subject, he (Mr. Goul-
burn) had better read the Learned Barons' own words:—" As to
this charge," he observed, " as 1 am net furnished with the name
of it. I cannot refer to my note book for evidence; but I dis-
tinctly soy, that I have no recollection of any such circumstance
occurring, and T am confident it never did—such an act as that
with which I am charged would be in direct variance with'
the whole tenor of my life. I have always conducted myself
with courtesy towards the Gentlemen of the Bar ; but it 'some-
times happens that Gentlemen are engaged bath in the Crown
and Civil Courts, and when they are occupied in the one they rest
some friend to officiate for them in the other. When such a cur.
cumstanee occurs. I never object to the gentleman returning to
take his place, and frequently rend over my notes to enable him to
cross-examine a witness." He (Mr. Goulburn) wee sure that no
Honourable Member would consider that the charge had been
made out against the Judge: but if the name of the came were
given, lie would pledge himself to provide a satisfactory answer. He
would ask, then, the Honourable and Leartied Gentleman (lie.
Brougham) if lie did not feel regret for having employed his great
talents in drawing the picture he had drawn, and in making charges
which were totally disproved. Was he justified in calling this
Learned Judge half tiger. and half some other animal, which he
(Mr. 0.) did not now recollect. He then denied, and he still de-
nied, that those charges had any foundation ; and every one, he was
sure, who knew the Learned Judge, would cgree with him in this
opirion.
Mr. DENMAN said, that he Mt It neeetsary to reply to some
of the observations that had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Goulbuni). He (Mr. Denman) had waited long, but with
much impatience, to hear some defence of the Learned Judge
against whom certain charges had been made. Only two cases had
been brought forward against him—the one was a case of a soldier
who had been charged with administering unbelted oaths, the
other that of a person who was tried for murder. lie (Mr. Denman)
was not at all satisfied with the explanations that had been given by
the Right Hon. Gentleman who had been imitnic3ed by the Learned
Judge to put in his plea of Not Guilty. He (Mr. Denman) and
his friends had received their information from authority as Rood,
if it were not so high, and from one alto was as well entitled to
credit. The denial of the charge was just such a one as was always
made. And if the name of the other case were mentioned, the
Irish Secretary would no doubt disprove the charge, in the same
manner, and by the same authority, as he had disproved the other.
But if the assertions of the Learned Judge were to be taken, how
much more was the house bound to take the evidence of the Ca.
tholic Association ? They did not rely on statements that were
published, but they challenged inquiry ; that inquiry had been re-
fused • their guilt had been taken for granted, and they had been
denim; 'even a hearing. Ile (Mr. Denman) would say, that the
duty of the House had been to hear those arguments and that evi-
dence at the bar of the House, which, with a very great hardihood,
they refused to hear. He was St a lose to conceive a reason why
they should not have been heard. lie rejoiced to see how easily
the Bill could be evaded. The House might have procured a re-
medy for all evils, by acquiring and deserving the confi-
dence of the Irish people, for that confidence would be always
given to those, whether in Ireland or in England, who deserved it.
The policy adopted by the Irish Goremment towards the Catholic
population, exemplified the fable of the wolf and the lamb; they
blamed it for alleged faults which the Association lied never corn.
mitted. The Catholic Association did not exist in 1822. and yet
the Resolutions respecting Church property were entertained and
discussed. These Resolutions, therefore, had nothing to do with
the present Bill against the Association, and it was unfair to eats.
blieh a connexion between them. It was not right therefore to
turn round upon the Association now, and say that their prayer
' could cot be acceded to until these measures were got rid of. The
truth was, it would not be granted until the question had ceased to
be one of a truckling amongst parties. The expectations held
out by the Ministry should be fulfilled by a corresponding sin-
verity on their parts; otherwise it was in vain to expect for tran-
quillity and content in that country. It wss not by. the adop.
lion of the suggestion of a gallant Admiral, by sinking the
country for twenty-four hours under water, that peace would be
established or tranquillity restored. A sacrifice of the posses-
sion of power to the adherence of principle, should be made before
that measure could be carried. It had been said by the Right ho.
courable Secretary for Foreign Atrairs, on the first night of the
Session, that if his Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr. B.)
succeeded in getting rid of him, be would not succeed him. Now
he and his Honourable Friend had long since given up all notion
of that alternative. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Brougham.) But that
was no reason why 136 and they should hesitate, as Engliehmen
and Members of Parliament, to express thew:elves strong] y against
• 841 which was about to be adopted without inquiry, with rash
and precipitate have, and without the due observance of any well.
established rule of login/snow. It was not a question of party—
and they who, like die Right Honourable Attorney-General fur
Ireland, thought it was a measure essential for the welfare of the
empire, and that the delay of it for even an hour was dangerous,
should rather retire from ofilee than remain Members of an Admi-
nistration odic': refused to carry it. They would do so with un-
tainted honour ; thottgh they might fail they could not be dis-
graced. They would have not only the approbetion of their own
consciences ; but the approbation of their country, and of man-
kind, and the approving voice also of posterity. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. FORD bore testimony to the administration of justice in
the part of the country with which he was connected. The Learn-
ed Judge (Baron el`Clellaed) whose conduct had been arraigned,
was as upright a Judge as any in Ireland. As to the Catholic As.
sociation a general opinion prevailed in the part of the country. to
which he belonged, that it ought to be put down. This opinion
was entertained not only by those who were hostile to the measure
of Emancipation generally, but even of Protestants who were
favourable to their claims. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. C. H. HUTCHINSON rose amid cries of "Question,
question." lie could assure the House that he did not rise for the
purpose of arraigning either the Judges or the Government. ( !mud
cries of "Question, question," were here again renewed, which
continued for several minutes.) I will not (said Mr. H.) submit
to be put down by an attempt of this kind. Ido not ask too much
in requiring to be fairly heard, after Gentlemen on the other side
have been permitted such latitude, and been heard with patience on
every topic, however inappropriate, which they may have thought
proper to introduce. It may not be acceptable to some to hear the
sentiments of one who dares to be honest in the worst of times; but
I shall not surrender the privilege that belongs to the station I now
occupy to say what I please, and i shaft be only more tedious by the
repetition of such an attempt ae has just been made to interrupt
me." lie wasanxioun to avail himself of the last opportunity that
should ofrer, to protest against this enormous Bill, and the dangerous
power, a power unknown before to the spirit of the constitution, to
obtrude into peaceable assemblies and disperse them. As to the
amendment of his Honourable Friend (Mr. S. Rice,) he felt less
anxious to support is from an unwillingness to make soy attempt
to patch tip thin abominable measure. It was to the Bill generally