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when out of it, he would maintain there was not in the Midi&
dominions—not on the face of the earth, an individual whom he
would place above the Irishman in the qualities of honesty and
industry (hear); no human being could be more warm-he tried,
more kindly disposed, or more sensible of benefits conferred.
(Hear, hear.) Ile thought it material to give this testimony, for
the purpose of proving that whatever may be the evils arising from
the a ate of Ireland. they could not be attributed to any defect in
the character of the Irishmen ; and Then Irishmen were considered
in their armies and navy—when they were considered in the various
branches of inclustry through which they were dispersed, there was
not to be inutel a more valuable class. Olean) After bearing this
merited testimony, he had no objection to enter into the discussion,
and to enable him to state his ideas upon the subnet, it would be
necessary ter him to consider Ireland, and draw sonic distinction
between one of her provinces, Ulster, for instance, and the others,
and from circumstances of trade and industry which were peculiar
to that province, he felt himself warranted in asserting it ass in a
state a growing prosperity. And he had no reason for not be-
lieving, that though this province might not be as advanced in
advanced in prosperity and wealth as England, it was in a fair way
of soon becoming so. The same statements he might be justified
in making of the other parts of Ireland, with the exception of one,
which included perhaps one-third of her pnpubuiou. Ilc made this
statement, as he felt it necessary to compare one part of that country
with the others. He did not wish to refer to the acts of Government,
and the policy pursued by this country to Inland in former times.
No good could result from this inquiry. Ile therefore did not wish
it ; but, if he was compelled to make a reference of this description,
he would not hesitate in saying. that the policy of England was
most tyrannical and unjust. (Hearn And, from this policy of
tyranny and injustice, when acted upon, more destructive cons?.
quinces did not, in his opinion, ensue, than there followed from a
system of narrow and selfish policy pursued by England towards
the some country. But he would beg to express his doubts
whether Ireland received greater evil and injury from the system of
tyranny, oppression. and selfishness acted upon with regard to her,
than she did a hen legislators came to apply principles for the purpose
of diminishing her evils, and when influenced, no doubt, by a feel-
ing of benevolence, they attempted to apply to that country
laws, customs, and institutions for which she was not prepareen
As a primed the truth of his opinions, he would affimi that Saw.
land was, even in the time of the present Royal Family, before the
rebellion of 1745, in a much worse state than Ireland ; and if, at
that period, English Ise, and Magistrates were given to that coun-
try, Scotland sould lint have reached its present state of pens-
perity. A certain mode of legislation VMS looked upon as appli-
cable to all—it was considered an universal good,—it was supposed
good palky to extend the same principles to all. This wt. nut, in
Ids :minion, genii policy. We should attend to particular wants,
and to the particular circumstances of different countries. (hear.)
This should be attended to in the ease of Ireland ; and as to the at-
tempts made to serve that country, there were never, in any reign,
so many laws pawed for the purpose of conferring benehts unon
that country. ca in that of the late king. A Noble Baron, who had
unfortunately thought proper to absent himself from that House,
bad delivered it as his opinion that greater benefits had never been
conferred upon any country than had been bestowed by this coun-
ty upon Ireland. This gave rise to a different consideration 01'1
t'te motion before their Lordships ; fur when the motion was
discussed, it was tit and just that the policy of the coon-,1
try, and the extent of it to Ireland, should be known. Of
this extent he rather thought the Noble Mover himself was not
aware; and with retard to this view of the question, he would
affirm that there was no country in the world which had done so
much in the space of a few years, and had conferred such signal
benefits upon a limb of her empire. This assertion lie would make,
and by the truth of this assertion he was satisfied the Noble Lord's
motion should stand or tall. In the mode of government the first
question would be that of taxation. It was well known to their
inntshipe that this country, after the difficulties imposed upon
it by the conflict in which it was engaged, was not only taxed
much higher than it could afford, but it was taxed upon the aver-
age much move than any country in Europe; and net in the midst
of these difficulties the indulgence was carried so tar towards Ire-
land, that this country had relieved her of her debt, and taken
it entirely on herself; and there was no country in Europe with
which the comparison could be made, except Switzerland, which
ass subject to lighter taxation than Ireland. The southern states
or Italy orient also form another exception. England was
therenre ten times mote highly taxed than Ireland, and live
times, if her population be taken into consideration. Ireland
was the only country in Euterpe that paid no direct taxes
to the Government. In that country there were no direct taxes
except tithes. There were, unfortunately, he thought, for the'
country, no poor rates in Ireland. lie would repeat, there was no
direct tax paid in Ireland, except for some local purpose or im-
provement; but there was none for a genteel purpose; and thus,
he spewed, whilst Great Britain paid more than any country in
Europe, 'rebind paid considerably less. Ile knew it would be ob-
jected to his argument, that Ireland payed little because she was
net able to pay mote; and the heavy taxation of England was a
proof of her proex-rity. This was nut the mode in Bodo lie heard
other questions discussed in that House. The taeation of this
country wan so heavy that it forced the laying on of protecting
dudes, and when these Bills were discussed in that House, and in
the country—the Corn Bill fur instance—it was always argued that
the labour, and the price of industry in other countries, was low
and cheap, and. this country should have the advantages thereof;
and this t °artery required these protecting duties. By this state of
the question he would judge Ireland. And what had been dune by
this country ? Labour was in Ireland cheap—the price of industry
was low, and yet had that country no restrictions imposed on her ;
but she had free access to our markets, without being exposed to
any of our protecting duties; while( France and the other awn-
tries on the Continent were subject to them. The taxes of Ireland
werervduced one-half; British industry and capital flowed to that
country, and the capital and industry of Ireland had tree and un-
restricted access to our markets. And after this fair and true
statement, was he not justified in declaring teat no country in the
world bad ever legislated so much for the advantage of another as
Englard had for Ireland? lie would appeal to any candid man,
anu ask if this were not a fair conclusion, acrd if, in the statute
book latterly there were not evidence of the most liberal policy ?
He would now come to another moot initaiit subject—religion;
and he would say a few words. It was difficult to look to the state of
Itched, without seeing it possessed great evils within itself, not con-
rectal with the polity of this country ; they were owing to some in-
ternal principles of its own. All these matters were, within the two or
three last years, the ground of inquiry. Commissioners were sent
to the country, and they had been the means of many fiscal improve-
w.ents. The Commissioners deserved the greatest credit, move
espeseally an Lion. Friend .1 his, who was at the head of the Com-
mission. These Commissioners hail gotten rid of many fiscal
ditlicultiot ; but the end of their labours could not yet be ascer-
tained ; and, fur this special reason, he would object to the motion,
as it would perhaps be exciting ex cautions which it would not be
to their power or cansistent with icy to realize. As to the sys-
,,
.... education, upon this sat policy to realize. As to the sya.
nazi ci education, upon this subject as much as the Legislation
could effect was certainly done. Though the Legislature had mi-
rth-el their attention to the subject, it should not be supposed the
attester was neglected or had failed of success. Ile was willing
to admit the system pursued by Government hitherto was wrong.
Education shotnel be communicated to all--to the Catholic as well
as the Protestant ; it should be given to the country, not to a party.
'Phis principle was now acted upon ; the system was diffined ; it
die no: include any particular persons ; it embraced alike Catholic
zed Protestant : anti, as it was Lid down upon a quesnon of much
leas itnpur.:ince, the Burial Bill, the present system of education
would include all. The present system of schools was introduced
itt the year 1817: in 1818 there were but II schools; in 1819, 65.;
is 11th), f 33 • and, in 11121, there were 241. Ile would not weary
their Lordships, but he would state there were at present 1,122.
This skewed the progressive state of the scheme. Ile would
/OW mention the number of applications for schools. The
lac year, in the first quarter, there were applications fir 63;
Oil tire second there were applications tor 73; on the third fie 117;
ore the fourth quarter for 142. Making a total of 395. These ap-
plications were not cot:tined to the Protestants; they came as well
from Catholics. The latter women to have laid aside almost all
their jealousies, and to have entered into the plan with seal. The
Carhuhes made numerous applications. Many came from the
counties of Limerick and Cork. There were in Munster 108 schools
:leo they bad gnulually increased ; nor was this all—the Scrip-
tunes were used according to their own version, end they had school-
wedeln of their own choice. Noble Lords were not to expect in.
stestaueous and magical effects from the system: improvement
could not be effected as if by a magician's wand—they should wait:
it was time alone that would produce satisfactory results. These
were nut bis own statements—they were the statements of the re-
ports, which he wee of course bour.d to believe, and some of which
he 'android for their Lerdships. [Here the Noble Lord read ex-
tracu from therepor:s of theCoonniestonersuf Education in Ireland.
He read this rep ore or the purpose of showing that the system of
edeention worked well, and wee pronucing die best effect. He
knew, however, that a Commission was ordered, to inquire into the
subject of education in Ireland ; and he was friendly to it ;—not
alone that, but, if any thing more ctsukl be done, there was no as-
cringe which would not be made to follow it up. The next subject
was therolice; and here he admitted that they were guilty in WOW
cases or the most unjustifiable conduct. They were, however,
brought to trial, and he hoped they would be puniihsd. The in-
itituuon, hosteler, was new, and abuses certainly were committed,
which it was the object of ie Goveeninent to reniesly. The differ-
ence+, however, beeween Prutestante and Catholics, and the intlu-
(-nee of religion, was utitertunately manifested. Catholics and
Protestants had a voice in the appointment of those constables, and
ne trusted the lie was strong enough to see justice done between
their. There were other teeies demanding attention, and particu-
larly that great topic of tithes, which would receive is full consi-
deration at a future period, and therefore he would not now fully
enter into that question. Tithes here arid in Ireland depended on
a different beds ; the sole division of property in Ireland was dif-
ferent from what it was here • but, after all, the tithe fell on the
property. (Hearn But, abolish the tithe ONITIOSTOW, and the
Lindland would have the benefit of it. Moral irritation was pre.
duoid, cruelty was practised in the collection of tithes, but the
grinding of the landlord was a: bad as that of the tithes upon the
'hi en peasant. For the advantage of the Church, something less
than the :fur should be teken, in older to relieve the people. The
itate of the Irish peasantry he admitted to be melancholy; but the
whuole grievance at to the people was this, that their landlords:
did no: assist them. Before the Irish people were improved,
the endless subdivision of farms must be altered ; and so said
Mr. Arthur knack, a gentleman well acquainted with the state
of Ireland. The forty-shilling freeholders was a fearful piece of
history, and deserving great attention ; but as to the subdivision
of hems, no man could doubt its impulicy. Lend in Ireland was
Is. at too high a price as compared with land in England ; and the
increasing pooulivion of that country increased its other evils. Land-
! red and taunt d.d not stand in a fair relation towards each other.
Time peasantry of In land were in a condition unlike any ether
.. ... . ...

'Amos he thought more good than evil 'resulted from the system
prevailing in this country ; differing, as it did, from that prevail-
, tag in Ireland. Every man, however humble, felt he had here a
home ; atid he was anxious to preserve it ; not so in the West
I Indies—not so in Ireland ; the labouring Irishman had no home,
I
no rights to look to or defend. Ile did not mean to say much
of the evil of absentees; but this lie would say, it operated roure
or kis on the whole Irish community. Here we had no middle-
men; we knew no such thing-the evils of Ireland originated
in, or rather perhaps continued, from that source. The middle-
man in Ireland would have his profit; he had it, and
that to the loss of the poor. Politics.' economists were at vari-
ance as to the good of large or small farms, Lut all agreed that
the poor must suffer, because they had no capital and no re-
sources. &aides, the withdrawing of capital produced moral evils,
and evils beyond those which he contemplated at the period of the
Union. Scotland afforded a striking example of the effects of her
Union; and he now thought that no portion of the British dominions
was more prosperous than the people of Scotland. With respect to
Ireland, however, kr a specific object be brought forward, and he
pledged hi mself to attend to it. The interests of the country as
will as Ireland required it. Ireland war now in a situation different
front every other country in the world. On the Continent sects
were divided, but property prevailed with the prevailing sect;
whereas in Ireland the landed and commercial party was Protestants
while three-fourths of the population were Catholic. The practical
benefit of emancipation would only do good to a few, but to the
many, as a matter of concession, it might do good : but he believed,
while Catholics and Protestants remained as they now were, what
is cal!ed emancipation would rather tlo evil than promote any useful
object. That, however, is a subject for further inquiry. Much
was done for Ireland by the Government, and every particular
branch of grievance would be attended to. The Government wished
well to the Irish people; there was no sacrifice which would not be
made for their immaivement ; and seeing no ground for the motion
of the Noble lord, he felt it is duty to oppose it.
The Marquis of LANSDOIVN observed, that lie wished to
state the grounds of his vote on this important occesion. He did
not think the measures adopted towards Ireland released their Lord-
ships front particularly attending to the state of Ireland. Ireland
now demanded consideration ; her history always, since under Eng-
lish rule, WAS unhappy ; and she was now at last in that situation
which left to the Government no other course but full and lair in-
quiry. Ireland was in a situation unlike that of any other country
in Europe: the few and the many were opposed, and palliatives
alone were hitherto applied to heal the bleeding wounds of that fli-
rted and misgoverned country. Ireland was not governed byordi-
nary laws, :out by the violation of all law and the Constitution of
this country ; and yet that violence produced no good : on the con-
trary, it led to the perpetration of abuse on one hand, and of crime
oo the other. Something, however, was done; inquiry was agreed
to; but as to practical benefit, nothing was obtained. The Govern-
ment had hitherto acted by Ireland not as a friend or ally, but as if
she were a stranger, and the people of Ireland telt it. Ireland was
not ruled as a portion of this great country, but as a province ;
not taxed certainly, because she could not pay taxes ; and not im-
proved, because it was impossible to effect it by that species of
unnrovement granted by this Government. Ireland, it was said,
hail received every boon front this country. Strange to say so;
and yet to find, that Ireland could only be retained to this country
by a large military force? Beyond all that was done, there was
something in Ireland requiring review ; and !something which de-
manded more attention than was hitherto paid to Ireland. Some-
thing certainly was due for that country ; sonic generosity was ex-
tended to them ; but was it more than Ireland deserved--than the
safety of tins country required ? Expediency alone was consulted,
and Ireland had no particular thankfulness to offer. We gave no
boon to Ireland by buying her corn. There is no pretence for
saying that we dealt favourably to Ireland upon that subject.
Countries growing that which they did not consume, would always
send their articles to market et a cheaper rate than others dd.-
krently situated; but it was only justice to Ireland to enable
her interest to predominate, where, in the nature of things, it must
have predominated. With respect to the taxation of Ireland, it
was true that the Irish people did not pay as much as those of
England, and our this reason, that they were the poorest people in
Europe. Na tyranny could extract from a poor people that which
they could not pay ; and he must say, that every effort was made
in Ireland to collect the largest amount of revenue. Taxes were
imposed to that excess, that the people could not pay them • taxes
were then remitted ' • but only talk of generosity to Ireland ?
Tyranny exhausted itself in the imposition and collection of
taxes in Ireland; force could not reuse money where it did
not exist, or was to be found ; yet because remitting those
taxes, the Noble Lord now contended that such remission was
an act of generosity ! It was an insult to common sense to
to call such remisaions an act of generosity. It was scarcely an act
of justice. The evils of Ireland were not of recent growth, and
unfortunately were continued in the same way to the present day.
Ireland was sacrificed to a few, and every one knowing the history
of that unhappy country knew the fact. Under bad laws the Ca_
tholics increased and would increase, and why not improve the
laws, it' it were only to give Protestantism fair play ? Oppression
had done its worst in Ireland, and still the Catholtas were not ex-
terminated ; on the contrary, they flourished and increased the
more. IVlty not now then try a different system ? Coercion failed,
why nor try conciliation ? lie torture failed, why not try equal
laws ? Until this were effected Ireland never could be friendly to
the British Government. It was in the nature of things that men
would spurn the powers that oppressed them, and resist the laws,
what, in place of being their refuge, are to them a source of
unmitigated tyranny. With respect to the composition of tithes.,
he was fully satisfied that some such measure was highly useful and
necessary; and he hoped, in the result, that the Act of last year,
though inconsistent with principles of justice in some instances,
would still remove some of those evils, which must be removed be-
fore Ireland could be tranquillised. An alteration however took
place in tithes, and that of itself would remove irritation—an ob-
ject of the first importance to both countries. The previous cum-
mutation was not of any value to the poor, but merely to persons
who had not before paid tithe ; and the result was, the infliction of
a curse upon the population, and on the particular parish in which
sautes had occurred which every man must deplore. Thecommutation
eystem however was good, and he hoped to see it generally. extended.
He would now enter at any length into the question of tithes; but
he must say a word us to the administration of justice in Ireland.
No doubt absenteeship from Ireland is a great evil; but there must
be some cause for it. The Union pro Mato produced emigration;
but over and above the number of persons residing out of Ireland
front having business or interests elsewhere, there were many who
left Ireland front other causes. It'llat could set the Irish land-
holden wandering from his own country ? Why, a variety of cir-
cumstances drove out many of the higher and middle classes to seek
an asylum elsewhere. The causes of this absenteeship resulted
from the state of the laws, when all were not protected, and from
the operation of the Government, which did not impartially dis-
pense justice. There were other causes also, but these he had men.
Coned predominated. With respect to middle-men, the Noble Earl
did not seem to know much ; fur they were occasioned more by the
poverty of the people than by the rapacity of the landlords. But to
revert to the administration of justice in Ireland : he must first say,
tlia: the present Government appeared anxious to enforce the laws,
and he hoped a tins deterrnation would be persevered in to make
them paramount, and thereby secure the affection and obedience of
the people. The Judges in Ireland seemed disposed to do their
duty and distribute justice. It would be invidious to select names;
but those who knew Ireland, knew the pre-eminent talent, virtue.
and merit of the Chief Justice of the King's Bench. That
learned and amiable personage united all the social virtues,
with all the public virtues, which could not only dignify and
adorn this station, but also shed a lustre on mankind. Other
Judges deserved praise, and lie willingly offered it to them.
Havtng so far done justice to the Judges of Ireland, lie meant to
say, that the auxiliary agents from the bar were calculated to give
satistaetion to all the well-disposed persons in Ireland. In the
interior appointments, however, there was not the same success,
because, perhaps, there was a difficulty in finding out the proper per.
sons. Buti it now so happens, that in some instances the very persona
who provoked riot and committed murder were the police, who were
since sentenced to transportation. The Noble Lord then adverted
to the recent trial at the Queen's County Assizes, in which Mr.
%Venice, the celebrated Irish Ilarrister, was engaged by a poor
faintly, and that upon the ground that the poor in Ireland were
excluded front protection, and could only have a fair chance of
right from the employment of a person who had received their own
inatruction. The poor in Ireland knew they had no law, and, in
fact, they. were not altogether in the wrung. The inferior agents of
the law in Belated were badly selected, perhaps because in that
class of life proper persons could not be found • but still the people
felt their situation, and every effort should' be made to render
the administration of the law as perfect as it could be.
In the county Of Roscommon, it was alleged that the police pro-
moted distureance, in order to profit of it, and in the northern
counties it was notorious that Catholics were killed, without the
chance of convicting filch murderer*. Persons there could not ex-
etcise their peaceful occupations; and he would not say the Juries
of Cavan and elsewhere did not discharge their duty. Still he
would say, that blood was spilt, and the persons spilling it were
not and could not be convicted. All these circumstances justified
the motion of his Noble Friend, and called Mr an inquiry into the
public regulations of that unfortunate country. Resentment*
were viably excited by the existing system : sons recollected the
injuries done their fathers—relatiuns those to their relations,--and
the system of Government perpetuated them. Such a system could
not be too sum altered—for altered it must lie, to produce tranquil_
lity or safety. The Judges of Ireland appeared to do their duty ;
and the late charge of Judge M'Clelland deserted every com-
mendation. All hostile processions should be put an end to,
as one means of conciliation; and until the Orangemen were
brought under the power of die law, happiness could not',
exist in Ireland. The Noble Lord then read the charge
of Judge M`Clelland, in which he wished to put down all
=soca. But bow was that to be done? He (Marquis of
ern) answered, by the Government putting down those so-
cieties which had recently triumphed over the law ; the Govern-
ment should take courage, and put those societies down. The,
speeches made in this llouse anti the other House might do good ;
hut to do essential and lasting good to Ireland, you must not con-
fine yourselves to your speeches, but to practical measures. The
evil-':.indeed and the prejudiced in office should be removed, in or-
der to satisfy the Irish peasant that his interests were regarded.
Let the Irish people find that they were to be protected, and you
would no longer have those alternations of obedience and assassins.
'ion which milked their recent conduct. The worm, if' trodden on,
would turn ; it was not in the nature of man to bear unlimiud pro-
scription and persecution. The Government of this country had
been, and was, with all its improvements. a bad Government for
Ireland. They feared to grapple with abuses, and those who com-
mitud the abuses put the Government at defiance. The magis-
tracy had fora long period been improperly selected; the inferior
officer,, of the law stood in the same situation ; and how could their
Lordships expect that the I rids peasantry would yield a ready obe-
dience to e system which, for all practical purposes, was to them
but a curse ? Amend the laws, let diem be suited to
let the people feel their protecting power; but is order
let the administrators of the law in every degree be

fairly and impartially selected. It was in vain to talk of the abstract
excellence of the law, while its practical Effect led to the belief that
it was no source of protection to the poor. It was not enough that
the laws were good, but it was absolutely necessary that they should
be impartially admioistered. The first great reforin must begin them
—the great source of dissatisfaction would be thereby narrows: ;
and every man who knew Ireland, and the character of the Irish
people, would admit that no people on the face of the earth were
more grateful for any kindness shorn to them. JllStice, in the
present case, demanded dila charige for the Irish people. Let them
find the law their safety, and they would obey it—let them
find the Alegistrates upright, and dealing even justix, and their
authority would be obeyed. Let no party triumph aver the law,
and place no man in office, who, fir party purposes, felt that
he could with tarty violate it. Let the Augean stable of
corruption be cleansed, if it were only partially ; let the foun-
tain of justice flow purely and uninterruptedly. Let the su-
bordinate officers of justice in Ireland be properly chosen,
and much of the heart-burninga resulting from past 'Macon.
duet on their parts would be forgotten by the Irish people.
It must occur to their lordships, that one of the most important
considerations was, to shew that Juries in Ireland were impar:ially
composed ; however just a verdict of acquittal might be, there was
no interest or so deep a nature belonging to that country as that
attaching to the impanelling of their Juries. lie was then unwd.
ling to detain their Lordships by arguments at any length, but he
was still desirous of offering some observations on the education of
the lower classes of the Irish people. As the Noble Earl had stated,
'it was high time to consider this subject fully. He could not accede
to the suggestion of his Noble Friend, which recommended the esta-
blishment of a Committee of Inquiry. He was not disposed to
r speak disrespectfully of those Commissions, but there had been so
I many that he wished to see some of their recommendations acted
on. Hitherto commission had followed commission, inquiry had
followed inquiry, and yet no benefit had been derived from the la-
bours of the Commissioners; and, in his opinion, it was not de-
sirable to establish any more commissions, until the suggestions
of the Commissioners, contained in the Reports on the state of Ire-
. land, had been enforced. Ile would not go back so far as the adminis-
tration of the Duke of Rutland, but he would continence with the
year 18116. Ile held in his hand the lath Report of the Commis-
, stoners instituted in that year, all of whom were eminently quali.
fled to discharge the trusts reposed in them. He begged to ask
what had been done ? Literally oohing. The Act of the 46th
, of the King, which had produced those 11 reports, was followed by
. the rail of the King, which produced nine more. He would again
ask what had been dune? Certainly there was most valuable in-
' formation contained in those reports, and on which it was the
bounden duty of Government to act before they proceeded to este-
blish any fresh commisaions. The recommendation contained in
those reports, it should be recollected, emanated from the most
able and upright characters. Yet, after all, the Noble Earl ad-
' mitted that no progress had been made in educating the people of
Ireland. Their Lordships were bound to come to a decision as to
the manner in which they ought now to proceed. They were about
to pass a Burial Bill, which he did not think calculated to select
' much good, and he thought that it would be better policy
to apply, ••• requiceent is puce" to the living than the dead.
The best mode, in his opinion, of effecting this, was by educating
the children of both persuasions together, as he felt convinced that
when children were united in infancy, and drank, as it were, at the
same fountain, they would not in after lite become a prey to those
ill feelings and animosities which unfortunately at present afflicted
the society of that country. The Legislature ought to endow ('a
tholic schools, as it was certain that an educates' population was
preferable to an uneducated one. The Noble Earl had said that
he would admit of no education of which the Scriptures did not
form a part ; but there was no desire to exclude the Scriptures,
and the conduct of the Church of England plainly spewed that
they considered the Scriptures as dangerous in the hands of the
common people, without note or comment. The Catholic clergy
had the same objections, and they were fairly entitled to the
enjoyment of them. The fourteenth report, to which he had
so much alluded, contained the most valuable inhwination, and was
signed by some of the must eminent Prelates of the Established
Church. It recommended that a selection might be made of some
of the most important parts of Scripture, which should not be lia-
ble to objection, which might be read in their schools. This re.
port was printed in 1821, and he desired to know whether such a
selection had been made, or even thought of ? Before they esta-
blished any more expensive commissions, he thought they had bet-
ter look to the reports already on their Lordships table. He was
aware that the opinions of the Catholic hierarchy had been taken as
to whether they had any objection to the proposed plan, and they
had declared that they had nut. Such a system would be beneficial
in more points titan one, fur it hail been averred that the Catholic
clergy were hostile to the education of the peasantry. Such was
not the fact, for in all cases the schools had net with the support
and concurrence of the Catholic priesthood. But were it other-
wise, such a plan would bring it to the test; and it' there were any
who wished ill to the Catholic clergy, and were of that opinion, they
ought to support the recommendations of the Commissioners. If
there was one quality more inherent than another iii the Irish
people, it was their desire to seek information, and an anxiety to
grasp at knowledge as they would grasp at te waters of life •
and if it could be shown that the Catholic clergy were averse to
the education of the lower classes, a decisive blow would be
struck against them. He hoped the Noble Earl would relinquish
his idea of a Commission, as he thought • little labour would
not be thrown away in examining the Reports already on their i
Lordships' table. The Noble Earl had said something on the ;
peculiar manners of the country. Whether the law proceeded
from the manners, or the manners from the law, there was an ,
I anomaly in Ireland which would present itself continually, with
most unpleasant consequences, until some lasting foundations
were laid for its removal. Ile had now touched on all the sub-
jects that he had felt it his duty to notice; and as the motion
0( his Noble Friend only called on the House to watch the opera-
' don of the laws it had already passed; and to see what effect had
been produced by them, he concluded by giving it his entire con-
CllftenCe.

Lord LIMERICK agreed with what hail fallen from the Noble
Lord at the head of the Treasury as to the benefits that Ireland
would derive from an exemption of taxation, at the same time
that he lamented that that exemption was forced on the Govern-
ment by circumstances. He conceived that the Noble Earl was
misinformed when he attributed the distress of Ireland to the
non-existence of poor rates, as the population would be converted
into aix millions of beggars, if they were told that they had a right
to be supported by their neighbours; they would then do nothing
but live in a state of perpetual idleness. The Noble Lord ad-
mitted that the question of employment was a most important
one, and lie was of opinion that if it could be introduced it would
operate to the destruction of many of the existing evils. lie con-
cluded by opposing the motion.
The Marquis tat DOWNSHIRE strongly impressed on their
Lordships tile necessity of inquiring into the state of Ireland. The
great evil that afflicted that unhappy country, was the distance at
which the landed proprietors were placed from their poor tenants ;
hence had arisen the nderstanding that existed between the
higher and lower classes ; and religion had now dept in to increase
that misunderstanding. The great body of the Irish population
was Roman Catholic, who had not received equal advantages in
point of education with their Protestant tellow-countrynten ; but he
hoped that these differences would speedily be put an end to ;
much ill feeling certainly had subsisted between the two parties,
which he trusted would soon subside, In the north of Ireland,
there was no necessity for a police establishment ; nor did he think
that the Insurrection Act was required in the south. The mischief
of it was, that when once established, it was attended by an ap.
pointntent to offices which the holders were not desirous of relin-
quishing, and therefore had an interest in keeping it in full
vigour. lie was glad to see that a feeling in favour of that country
had been roused, and he trusted that it would induce capitalists to
go over there, aim turn to advantage the numerous benefits that
nature had lavished oat that country.
land CAItBEIIT begged to observe, that all the officers ap-
pointed under the Constabulary Act had been uniformly correct in
their conduct. The subject of education had engaged the attention
of the Irish Government of Ireland for sonic time past, and it was
making its way notwithstanding all opposition. Kith respect to
what had been said on the subject of the Scriptures, he hoped he
should never see a British Parliament sanctioning a system of edu-
cation from which the study of the Scriptures should be excluded.
He trusted that by perseverance in the measures which Government.
had acted on the country would be greatly benefited ; and he would'
nut wish to see those benefits thwarted by the adoption of the reso-
lution now proposed to them.
Lord RODEN was happy to hear that there was a prospect of
Ireland's emerging from the state of degradation and ignorance in
which it was at present plunged. Ile felt nu inconsiderable alarm
when he heard hie Noble Fnend (Lord Darnley) give notice of his ,
motion ; but it had completely subsided while he listened to the
calm and dispassionate manner in which he had introduced it, as it
was calculated to bestow a benefit on the country, by enabling
Noble Lords to give their opinion as to the state of it. Without
entering into the question of Catholic Emancipation, he would re-
serve what he had to say on that subject until it should be brought
forward, as he supposed it would, in an isolated shape. The
charges which had been matte against the Government were false,
the evils arose from the indolence of die people and from their
ignorance of the sacred truths of God's word. Whether he was
believed or not, it was his duty to state what he knew to be the
fact. He repeated, that the evils arose front an ignorance of the
law of God, and front the penalty attaching to a breach of it.
There was no country in the world vier: the inhabitants were so
much under the influence of spiritual thraldom. He spoke
from experience when he said, that when a knowledge of the Scrip-
tures was diffused, and education had been given to the lower classes,
they were obedient and happy. Ile hail lived nitich in Ireland,
and could say of his own knowledge, that all classes, both Catholic
and Protestnit, were eager for instruction. He referred confidently
to the Reixots that had been so touch alluded to, to corroborate
what he had said, with regard to their anxiety for their education.
The Noble hard here entered into a detail of the various charitable
schools established for the education of the lower Irish classes, from
which it appeared that there were attached to them :119,3)f; scholars.
of which number 164,74 n were Roman Catholics. The Noble Lord
continued by haying, that the great object of the reformation should
not be overlooked. Ile thought it of Importance that the spirit of
Popery should be opposted by all fair arguments. With regsrd to
the Police Bill, he observed, that it was the best measure that had
ever been proposed for securing the tranquillity of Ireland; and
he thought that both Ribbonmen and Orangemen should be put
down, as the celebration of their triumphs were generally attended
with bloodshed. He concluded by giving his dissent to the 'no-
tion.

The Marquis of LA NSDOWN explainetL
hoed CLIEDEN hoped that education may spread throughout
Ireland. Ile had heard the Noble Earl (herd Roden) generally
with great pleasure, but he would ask that Noble Lord it it were
fair to encourage proselytism or not iu Ireland ? (Hear, hear.) For
his pan he thought proselytism was at variance with the true spirit
of Christianity. It was natural that the Catholic clergy were op-
posed to proselytism, for the principle of forced conversion was the
veryessence of the penal code which su severely oppressed this body.