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London, England, 1819-06-25 00:00:00

of the Barons of the Exchegner. Ife ilia hope,
this were tar case, mid soy new appointments were
urnlil
contepate that they would be.susivended,
'eport was laid on the table. I* did not know
whether Isis arnlion would be 011110%ell or 001--bist
certatuly lie could see no good itrounil for oppoii-
I pun. A.soredly !WOW explanation ought tinio he
given by his Majesty's Nlinisters, fur refrang
from biking Any step on this subject. after t
The
three or
four Reptnis haviog been laid on the table.
first uirritisig 4.f dug Commissionets took place in
Mny. 1104—the Commission having
ive been a
app
pointued
in 1814 —.ati•d the first Report, relat to Cort
of Session, was made so far hack as 1916, altlionv,,,h it
hail never since been acted on. 'fuel the subject
Might nu longer remain unnoticed, lie would now
move—
" Iltfre.ll, laid before this Haase eopy of all tlie
refereners that have beau spade to she ledges, sir any of tars,
or to she Law Officers of the Crown in tieudsad—or
hi osOte In
r say
Kepoirls laid before them respecting the •Courts of
moisweft theteio.-101gether with the respec-
tive skies tbeteof.*
Lord CACTENSEAOH said, he had no objection to ,
offer to the widow, of the Noble Lord, mid would
reserve himself with respect to coy obssiVistions he
might think proper to snake on there documeorts,
untilNliry were hod before the Hour,. The Noble
Lord hail made a satiety of general ob ss iss nuns, es
tt the itooduct itf Governrnetit, in not biking those
Reports into their coosoleration, and adopting some
in nu what they recommended. But as thole
obseriations did nor apply to ally subject that unide
• part of the motion, it Mao unneecessry, at present,
to say any thing on that point. He only hoped
that Grotleisrei would not suppose, in cubsequence
of what fell from the •Noble Lord, that his Ma-
jesty's Mriii.ters were disinclined to avail themselves
of the suggestions contained to the Reports of the
Cunndtlarioinrra,because they had not yet noticed

them.
Mr. AletteanhisT said, there was one part of
the speech of ill*, Noble Friend to which the Noble
Lord tied not etiverled, though it was of great
im-
port atter. It related to a question which he (Mr.
Abercromb)) hail. some tune since, put to the
Noble Lord. Ills Noble Friend stated, that the
Report Coototterti a teem iiiii endetion that the office
of one of the B,roii. of the Exclieqirer in Scotland
should be abolished. When he asked the queatiou
of the Noble Lord, he did not know that the Com-
ntissioriers had made such a recommeridation—but
he put it to hurt inertly because he thought such a
nieii.ure would be most espedient--eepecially when
eke) were tooeilig a Bill, which separated the of-
fice oh Baron of the Exchequer from another that
had long been connected with it. The whole con-
stitution of the. Court of Exchequer in Scotland
ought to be revisrd—and he conceived it was most
improper that the situation of First Judge of the
Jury Court, and that of Baron of the Exchequer,
should he held by the same person. The conti-
nuing so many Barons of the Exchequer could
not be defended on the ground of the business of
the Exchequer Court, but because they had other
duties to perform. which were entirely incompatible
with those which were connected with the Court of
Exchequer.
Lord BINNING did not mean to have said a
word on this occasion, as his Noble Friend ex-
pressed his acquiescence in the motion, if it
hail not been for certaiu observations which fell
from the Learned Gentleman who had last apoken.
Ills objection woe, that certain official Atitie*
nixed to the office of the Barons of the Backe.
quer were inconsistent with their simpatico as indres
and, therefore, he would have new officer' mispoint-
ed, that they might be delivered from the perform-
ance of the official functions.- He (Lord Binning)
did not think there were ally duties imposed upon
them, but those naturally connected with the
Court over which they presided. He thought the
question of incompatibility did rot go so far as the
Hon. sod Learned Gentleman (Mr. Abercromby)
thought ; and the question of ecosromy did not op-
ply at all, as the accomplishment of his views
would lead to the appointment of two new officers.
Mr. KaIiNSDY expressed • desire that Govern.
mem would pompom the tilling up Noy vacancies
till the next Session, when the propriety of new-
constructing the Court of Exchequer might be
fully considered. Should such an understanding
not be come to, it was his intention (as we could
collect) to propose a motion fur such postpone-
ment.
Lord CAsTLERRAGIR made some remark not
audible to u..
Mr. J. P. GRANT understood there was a recorn.
tartulatiOss from flair Commissioners of Comets of
Justice in Scrilatiol that the place of the fifth
Bowl of the Court of Exchequer should not be
filled op. It such were the fact. lie supposed Minis.
ter* would hare nu objectors& to delay making the
appointment till next year.
After a few words from Mr. BoSIVELL and Lord
BINNING, the trooloss Was put and carried.
MEshAGE FROM THE LORDS.
A Wooer Loin the Lords announced that their
Lordrilispri had agreed to the Lotteries Bill, and
other public and private Bills.
JURY COURT—(KOTLAND.)
Lord A. HAMILToX lilt he owed an apology to
the House for occupying so much of its time; but
he really could not forbear eutreating its attention
fur a short tune longer, while he inside some obser-
vations on the Jury Court Act, which had recently
passed thus and the othyr House of Parliament. No
person was more friendly than himself to the prin-
ciple of extending the Trial by Jury to Scotland—
ou person was more sesis:ble of the great benefits
of that institution—no person was more favuura.
We to the object of the Act, or more disposed to
labour that it should receive the greatest effect.
He hoped, therefoie. he should receive full credit
fur his good wishes for the principle of the measure.
It was because he wished it success.. and necaure
be thought that some of its regulations and enact-
ments having pilled the House in a precipitate
and objectionable manner, might therefore afford
room fur opposition to those who were less friendly
to it than himself, that he now rote to submit his
amotioti, anxious to remove all impediment* which
weight obstruct its workissg. He should he sorry, in
offering some objections to parts of the Bill. to be
posed to arraign the motives of those wlmoreginated it.
What he thought objectionable was, the appoint-
ment of so mom new officers in a Court which,
from what he knew, was already amply *uplifted.
and with each large salaries arinexed to them as
would probably Waves-the holden ht vedette their

ro war

w.M~.rwK►l

ditties by deputy. The Bill hill been hurried
through the House with mobecronierg precipitaucy ;
most of the clauses providoog for the creation of the
Hew oThces had been filled top and agreed to at mid-
" Wit. in the presence of soot
eight Members. The Act coosisterl of twenty-six
paget, and he wrathd venture to say that more than
the blanks that occurred in them load been
filled up in the muffler lie loot described. It was
therefore necessary the Act should receive wore
L.deli'oerote attention and vitamin MOM than it hod
yet undergone, before loving put in osperdtion-•-that
lie proposed to effect by no whirrs. to the Crown,
to giVY direCtiollfg tint to lilt op the new places
created by the Act till one ni milt after the com-
mencement of the nest Session of Parliament, or
tiil a Report mu the dory Corot bad hers re-
ceived from the Commissitmers in Courts of Justice.
The first appointment authorised to be made by
the Crown, which lie ventured In bring under the
notice of the Wine, was, that of four clerks, at a
salary of 6001. •-year each, and in the same !sage
was given a power to mime tiller more assistant
clerks.—(Henr.)—Ou this puint one f..ct was very
decided, that the clerks of the Jury Court @toll roue
tinued their attend tore in the Court of Session pre-
cisely as before ; sod lie interred that if the old
clerks could thus employ their lime, the addition of
new ours was uniteceoenry...-(11eo, hear.)—The
Noble Lord then made some remarks on a new
auditor provided by the Act. to addition to the
new clerks lie had mentioned, there was a Gather
power, in case of the absence of a clerk limn sick-
ness or other umtv..idable cause, conferred upon the
presiding Judge of notnitiatioirr an occasional one.
Before giving in his motion, he begged leave to ray
that he should be iterfectly satisfied with an assurance
from the Noble Lord that Government would not
fill up the new places till the (line he had fixed on.
_(Lord Castlereagh having, we believe, Palmated
his dissent.)—He looped the Noble Lord would not
imagine he had brought forward the mo . i tttt ou the
strength of his own op. . He assured him that
he had consulted many friends, who all concurred
in thinking with him, that whatever merits the Art
might possess, some enactments of it, and the mode
in which it passed the [twee, were altogether ob-
jectionable. His Lordship then moved—
te That ass humble Address he presented by this House
to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, praying his Royal
Highness to give direction' that nose of the additional ap.
pointsnents sanctioned by the Jnry Court Act of the present
Session of Parliament may lie made, till one month after the
commencement of the next Session of Parliament ; or till
the Commissioners now sitting in Courts of Justice in Scot-
land shall have made a report regarding the said Court."
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said lie did not mean
to review the merits of • measure which had passed
both Houses of Parliament, but he trusted the
House would indulge him while he endeavoured to
answer the arguments of the Noble Lord against it.
The Act originally establishing a Jury Court in Scot-
land, passed in the year 1015, was only temporary,
for the purpose of trying the effects of such an in-
stitution in Scotland. After the Court had sit
three years, its advantages were found to be so great
that it was resolved to make it permanent, and to
extend its power,. It was thought, that when that
change was made the business of the Court would
he axed.—(Hear, from the Opposition
Be
Alid say, that no man could doubt
the 'ivied be most materially increased by
the operation of the late Act, because it no longer
left it optional to seta certain cases of action there,
but rendered it imperative.—(Hair./—The in-
crease of business made it necessary to bestow the
power of cresting additional officers to meet it.
Originally the Court had three chief clerks, and
two assistants; by this Act there were to be. if it
was found necessary, four chief ar.d three assist-.
ants, but not, as the Noble Lord erroneously sup•
posed, three additimial assistant', but only one.
The whole number would not be ten, as he had
thought, bet seven. The Noble Lord would sus-
pend, in this respect, the operation of the Act
till the next Session of Parlisnient. How inju-
rious such it step would be, might be inferred
from the tact, that there were at this moment two
hundred case* no the roll for trial. There were
to be four Terms in Edinburgh, three Sittisogs
each Term, and two Circuits each year. He
thought the number of the clerks absolutely ne-
t` yto the well-bring acid successful proceed-
ing of the Court. With respect to the mode
of passing the Bill, it was inserted regularly in
the Orders of the Day the night the clauses
referred to by the Noble Lord had been agreed
to. Every Gentleman connected with Scotland
might have hero aware it was then to come be-
fore the House, and if any Gentleman had applied
to • Noble and Leariied Lord at that time in the
House, lie would certainly have shewn too disposi-
tion to hurry it unnecessarily. The Bill came
down front the Lords the 30th of April : it was not
read • third time here till the lab of May ; in the
Committee no opposition was offered to the clauses.
The Noble and Learned Lord therefore could not
fairly be accused of hurrying the measure through
the House, when lie had no means whatever of
knowing there were any objections eidertaineol
epilog it. If the motioo should be persisted in he
should be obliged to oppose it.
Mr. BOSWELL said, Brit when lie saw • Bill
containing many new clauses, and imposjug ass ad-
ditional expense of 3,500/. a year, besides that
which would he incurred in erecting hew buildings,
had gone through a Committee with but 'revels or
right persons present, he hardly thought the man-
ner of proceedisog fair to the House or to Scotland.
He hurl read the Bill, but his objections to certain
clauses of it had been overruled by the Noble and
Learned Lord, to whose np;ttioto lie had yielded the
more wilhagly, es he said the Bill had been sub-
mitted to the Judges, of Scotland. He had re..
ceived various letters from Scotland, pointing out
many objectionable passages ito the Act. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman then argued against
the necessity of the additional chief clerk—and ex-
pressed his opinion, Simone etwistent teed
of three, would be competent to the business to be
done. He should decidedly support the motion.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, be wished to call the
attention of the House to the nodule of the proceed•
ink now adopted, which lit thou/pit insist iticosive-
Meet sod dangerous; for if tow deliberate Acta
of the House were u, be suspended. sod for a
time at least nullified, which was tbe object of the
motion, est no e couldilte (louse say it had got
through business, bream* it Wright, in the same
.wry. be 10d ow at oaf future Caws to reltio, I

what it had done...(llter, hear.) —The Honnufshle
and Learned Gentleman behind him (Mr. PA,
well would overthrow an Act of Parliament
lento!)• and regularly passed, from an utidersla.al.
lug on Ms mind produced by letters from Scot-
land. The ground of the Noble Lord's nortita,
was, that in forming and reamodelling a Court cf
Justice, one chief and one assistant clerk had beert
permitted by the Act to he appointed, if the lot.
sines* of the Cottrt stimuld require rt. It would
also be a preredrnt, full of iticonverrience, to ail.
mix the principle, that the House of Commons
ought not to legislste without consultin,g the Coin-
, missioners of Courts of .liedice in Semiarid. If
the motion were not withdrawn, he should oppose it.
Mr. 1305*E11.t. and Lord CASTILREACH mu-
tually explained.
Mr. ABEacaostaY said, drat the proviitons of
the Act, with respect to the new offices, could not
Ire entried into effect till December, so that no po.-
sible iriconvenience could arise from agreeing to his
Noble Friend's furor tttt , or consenting mot to 111 .e •
the uppointment till the trine desired, became
ever accumulation of busbies* might take place to
the Court, it certainly could riot occur to the short
space of six. weeks or two months. The Ht.% wet
Learriediperitleinan then argued, ill tt there w 4,
such a inieundersiamliog and ort,ihke i i rhe
in retrying into effect the intentiotts of ilte
that it was absolutely neceesary to saowatti it. ttp.-
terti oil. lie also objected to the ilerts• lte,z .-
point•-cl by the Clown, rattier than the J:ittgr.,
general print Oro.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, the Crown fel_ t o to:-
patience to fill Ito the new offices, MA that note
should not be tided rip ri I a CMIIIIIIIIIIC3tIOIII 611500"
be made by the Judges who presided, that Attire
were necessary.
Mr. BROUGHAM was exceedingly rejoiced to hear
the ~,,,,,tekee of the Noble Lord, which might pot-
sibly induce his Noble Friend not to lives", his mo-
tion. The lion. and Learned Geatlemarr then
contended at length against the stece.sity of twit
additional clerk,. He had understood from pei-
MUM at the very summit of their profe..toir it. Scot-
t:nut, that no addition whatever to the clerks was
called for.
Lord BINNIN• said, that no parliamentary
ground was laid for the motion of the Noble Lord,
and he rejoiced that the Noble Lord intended its
withdraw it. At this moment lie said there wrre
upwards of 200 causes on the list of the Court,ettid
lie had no doubt but when the Corot was hater
known, its Istorioess would greatly increase. He
hoped this would he the case, because he Ilia 60
d,iubt it would be for the advantage of the country
if that Court took away the business front the tither
Courts in Scollaud, because business in that Court
would be extended with greater expedition, and
with less expense. Willi respect to the
merit of clerks and inferior officers, he tram::
such appointment ought to be left to the discrotscr
of the Judges of the Court.
Mr. BROUGH•St explained.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that it did tint fddlow
that those appointments should be made because
power was given by the Bill to make these.
Mr. J. P. GRANT sail, he did slat certainly 71,..
teed to the number of clerks to be appointed, lie-
cause he felt that that matter might be left to tie!
Judges of the Court, tool the ilcretinn of lus
Majetdy's illiniarra. lie said, that hie 11114
Friends next him made a mistake as tic the ritmantilr
of business to be done in that Court. ft w:5 ler-
inerly a matter of experiment to try cases in the
Jury Court; hot it Willi 1/0 longer matter of expe-
riment, and so future great part of the buorte.s of
Scotland, certainly great part of its common Lie
business, would devolve oa that Court. He (mold
not bit down, 1w said, without declaring that in in
opinion this Act of Parliament limo givers the
greatest advantage 1.. Scotland.
The SoriciToit-GENERAL explained.
A tern few word.. I. tau Mr. KENNEDY and Lord
A. liertell.TON. the mower was widloirawn.
Lord 13teetse moved fur a new writ for the Boronzli of
Anstriither, in the room of Mr. Macimorhic, who has ,crept.
ed of the situation of one of the Lor3tt of Jitaticomy
of
Scotland.
Mr CIROK RR gave notice of his intention of lorilogiuz is
a Si 1 to make valid, fur certain purposes, in Great Brits...,
aJoninistrations taken out in the Ecclesiastical Courts r.
Ireland. He said, that the executors of military and tiav,l
officers dying in Ireland were put to enormous (*pease and
trouble io taking out admiaistratioas sic this country.
SETTLEMENT ON THE RED RIVER.

---
Sir James IllowrOostrov said, that in rising lu a 111 the
attention of the Hamse to circumstances, who n ;..! aus ideal t
to detail, he dial not mean to touch on the interests of
Hudson's Bay Company, on the one hand, or of the Nortti.•
West Company on the other, hut wl6lteit In separate the
'crests of the colony front both. Load Selkiri., lir h
in early life, turned his thoughts to the plantiii.;
meets. He hail applied for and received rutin) the [luaus.%
Bay Company a charter or grant of part of their triiito.,
called the Red River. He improved this country at ern
labour and expense, and formed a settlement there; hat the
North• West Coinpary disputing the power of the Comystel
of Hudvoo'c Bay to snake the grant, his Lordship *Mann a
she opinions .4 some of the most eminent lea yen. lap Gig'
land, amongst whom were the late Sir Samuel !torridly, tic
present Mr. Jostler Holroyd, Mr. Scarlett, and
all of whom concurred in opinion that the Company hot
the power of snaking the grant, snit that hie tairdelOp
under that grant, jorisii!etion over the setihment of the
River. His Lordship fully rested his riztit can those kith
legal atttlioritlea. Hie title, too, was nructiised nudes.,
Armed by the Act of the Goirsriimetil of this count. v,
the breaklag out of the American war in iSiS ; on that car
elision he applied for p ection to the C,ol.iiiial Deo.irinaror
against the attacks o he Initiator, earls Noble
(Batbnrst) granted hitloo statid of iwuv,, and too pion.
of artillery. It was rig tto stale that the Indians ha Isere
always perfectly satisfied with the coorlitel cat thesaui.'s,
until they were excited against them—he rirsold oaf .av
whom, but be held in his baud the affidavit tat' t•tiovi
Chief, which stated that the Indian people were applied
ell the part of the North-West Compoity, for the 011 power
overturiiing the settlement. la the spriag of 1140, the art-
; tlemeot of the Red River was smutted by large hand., priaB
tipsily by what are called halt freed men. resam
service of the North-West row, .in this attack
member of the sett" site
ktlh•d, and
.11ielr roperys pAiadered ; sod he would nut lu•ii3te
,es ,Ibase.taast perasoditated mid atrocious m on!, ie Ile
himself to wake this charge in the
mace of individual* who wild ant defend themselves; bo:
the. (barge reeled so ether evidcnee. He Iseuld fir.t
a letter front a Mr. M.Gillieray to oat of the ',atm, • ,••
the North-West Cowspaay, dated April, 181 i. 1,. this 101.
the writer alludes Nhis eseetiess is the press, and se). ilia
the Hrelibtoder's letters, be hoped, would prevent lir. t0,.1-
ship front procuring settler, (tom Scotland. Ile
ih
weld on to aisle, that the colony would be •
in the bead by the Nortli..West Company; 1/1 1140111.1 '•'
lie sant, that some plea epilog the settliosriii
I execrated by mans Gime ; sod in soother letter, dot d
Fort William, ists the id of hog be talks of the
boos far attaultieg the oakum.. The pasty, boo s, s •

.