The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1825-02-12 00:00:00

FROM LLOYD'S LIST.

OtetrEsseD, Fice. 10.—Arrived the Julia, Ring, from St.
Michael's; Celerity, Dickenson, from Jersey; Friends, Sparrow,
from ditto; Ceres, Schuh:, from Memel; Ebor, Berryman. from
Petersburgh ; Cora, Grant, from Gibraltar; William, —, from
Para. Sailed, the George, Betts, for Sierra Leone; Farquharson,
Cruikshank, for India; Cosmopolite, Starry, for Trieste; Express,
Wells, for Gibraltar; Thetis, Reed, for Hainburgh.
iCARBRO., FES. o.—The Sarah, of South Shields, Blair, was
blown olf the land on the 4th inst. in a heavy gale from W. to
W. N. W. which continued till the 6th: when within forty miles
of Heligoland, fell in with the Romulus, of South Shields, Ware,
dismasted, and her ballast anted; took her in tow, and brought
her into these roads.
QUI MYER, FEB. 3.—The South Esk, Humble, from Liverpool
to Messina, Malta, &c. which pot into this port with loss of main-
mast, &e. and considerable damage, in October last, having been
repaired, proceeded about a fortnight ago to the mouth of this river,
to take in her cargo, but having sprung a leak, was put on shore
with 34 feet water in her hold. She is Dow ready to receive her
cargo.

The Thomas and Eleanor, of Whitby, was driven or. shore near
Dunkirk 4th instant, and only four of the crew saved.
Extract of a letter from the agents to Lleyd's at Cuxhaven, dzted
Ltli Feb.:—" A most tremendous gale at West commenced on the
2d Instant, which inereaseti on the 3d, and continued until the fore-
noon of yesterday. Con the evening of the 3d the tide rose to an
alarming height, and about eleven o'clock the inland bank gave',
way, mid the inundation has caused great damage. The Spring,
of North Shields, Edington, and the Eliza, of Leith, Cochrane,
which bad boon taken off the stocks two days before, after the
completion of their repairs, were thrown upon the quay, where
they now lie. Two warchnuses are carried away, and I believe the
entire cargo of the Gottfried and Betty, Jacobson master, is lost.
Part of the cargo of the Aberdeen, Wood, is carried away by the
flood, and the rest damaged. The cargo of the Neptune, Wade,
has sustaiaed much damage."

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.
Sir G. CLERK 'mid, owing to the difficulty experienced in the
constructing of models for the purpose of regulating weights and
measures, he had to request that the Act passed last Seesion. re.
being to this measure, and which was to have come into operation
on the Ist of July, should be postponed to the IA of January,—
Leave given.
ILLEGAL ASSOCIATIONS IN IRELAND.
Mr. CANNINO moved the Order of the Day for resuming the
adjourned debate on this question.
Mr. C. PELHAM rose, but from the low tone in which the
Hon. Gentleman spoke, he was inaudible in the gallery. We un-
derstood him to say, that he was anxious on the present occasion to
steer a middle course between one side and the other. We also un•
derstood the Hon. Gent to say, that he considered the Bill about
to be brought in rather too harsh a measure against the great body
of the Catholic people, now that the country was in a state of pro-
found peace.
Mr. GRATTAN did not know from the speech of the Honour-,
able Member who last spoke, whether he would have his vote on
Ibis occasion °epee He (htiveratt%) rose foe the purpose of
'defending the Catholic Association, AM OM his _ 410 justice
to pertees who ware absent, and could not therefore M..d them- ,
selves. This he pas she nuns anaisent- wads.as (h had been
most illiberally and unfairly attacked het night tiy the w Tiers; 4.
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel) who had denounced them as violent
and united Irishmen, and characterized their speeches as seditious,
without taking into consideration the excitements from which they
sprang;; and when the Catholic clergymen were branded for their
interference with politics, could it be forgotten how a clergyman of
the Protestant Church was the conductor of the most violent Orange
Print in Ireland ? No person could be's° simple as not to know
the evil consequences resulting from the divisions that existed In the
Irish Government, where one party wax weak and another strong,
or masculine, as . had been celled last night by aq, and
Learned Gentleman (Mr. Denman). The llono
proceeded to say, that the Catholic Association w -de-
fence, and in some measure a counter-Association, it coin-
posed alone of Catholics; there were, among its members many
Protestants of high respectability. He was not himself a member
of it ; he was not fond of attaching himself to any Society, for he
was not sure but mischief may, perhaps, result from them. He,
however, considered it as most unjust that the Catholic Association
should be condemned unheard every thing that was urged against
them should not be credited ; they should have an opportunity of
defending or justifying their conduct ; they should be heard by
Counsel at the bir of the House against this Bill, which he (Mr.
Grattan) would not hesitate to designate a Bill of War—an Orange
Bill—a Bill which he suspected to have had no origin, and to have
been concocted by the Corporation of Derry: it was a Bill cal-
culated to stifle the Catholic Question, and to puzzle the people; it
was likely to produce a system that would not only excite
Protestant against Catholic, but would array Protestant against
Protestant. (Cheers.) What could follow from such a measure,
but a perpetual waring and jarring ? For his part he would rather,
if such a measure passed, stay in this country than return.
An alarm had lately been excited in Ireland, not by Catholics,
but by a small party of Protestants. He (Mr. Grattan) at-
tended at the Petty Sessions to hear the affair investigated: and
from what he could collect, it arose from the anxiety of some per-
sons to procure, perhaps, &commission of the peace, or get up a
volunteer corps. Upon this occasion it appeared that A Catholic
was fired at. And why was it that the Association were blamed
for interfering with the administration of justice, when it was well
known to every person acquainted with Ireland, that the poor
man, however injured, hat not the means himself of seeking re-
dress; and indeed if he hal the means, it was clear that he dared
not quarrel with his oppressor, who in many caeca was his landlord.
Ho* then could he lie justified but by the interference of the
Catholic Association ? There was some time ago a case occurred
in the Queen's County, which showed clearly that the people
placed no confidence in the ordinary administration of justice.
In that case, a vast flambee of policemen were charged with
the commissioo of a marder; and though the Government
took up the prosecution, still this did not satisfy the relatives of the
deceased, and they had &barrister of their own Choice to conduct the
prosecution ; and he was sure, for he witnessed the entire proceed-
ings, that the conviction of these police-men was mainly to be at.
tributed to the exertions of Mr. Wallace, the professional gentle.
man concerned, and also to the strictly-impartial conduct of the
Learned Judge who presided. The HOW. Gentleman proceeded to
any, that it was not the fact, as bad been alleged on the opposite
side, that great benefit followed from the Convection Act; It did
not check rebellion—on the contrary, he was old enough to recoi-
lect that within six or seven years from its enactment, a violent re-
bellion broke out in Ireland, and that was succeeded by one not
less mischievous or hurtful, he meant the Union. And if enotber
proof were wanting of the inefficacy of these Acts, the introduc-
tion of which, on every occasion, he strongly deprecated, it was that
the Bin intended to crush Orange Associations had produced quite
a contrary effect ; and he could learn from a Member of the grange
Societies, that their numbers had been increased by an addition of
at least ten thousand members. He, indeed, though heatile to
Orange principles, hated all these Acts that tended to muzzle
men. There were now in Ireland over 30,000 soldiers, and 3000
or 4000 police ; and what was more likely than that these men would
be nud to support a system of espionage, such as was carried on
in France, and could be brought home to the door of every indi-
vidual. Much had been said of the IrialiParliament, but the greatest
Wane the Catholics received were from that Parliament. " Good
God 1 continued the lion. Gentleman, if we are going to impose
this law on the Catholics, let us accompany it with some boon—
some concession ; let us give something to sweeten the bitter and
harsh pill we are about to admiaieter.' Since the Union, how had
the laws been carried into execution, how but by force and by the
bayonet ? And let it hot be believed, that the peasantry of Ireland
make no distinction between Protestant and Orangeman ; he would
deny that they used the words as synonimous ; they did not dislike
Protestants in general. He, for instance, or any other gentleman
of liberal feelings, might travel rarely and with security through
any part of the country. Much noise had been made about their
hate of Orangemen ; and why should they net hate them? Did
not the Orangemen hate th:rn ? (Cheers.) Were they not their
natural enemies? (Cheers.) Was it to be expected that men
would, wham slapped on one cheek, turn the other ? Qtd not the
pm deny teem with abuse of the Clithelica ? Their priests were

e picas
the right of petition. Of the first of these objects he (Mr. M.)
certainly disapproved. The ground of his objection was, ,fist an
individual prosecuted by-a society did not meet that Assoc e:',%113 nu
equal terms. fu the that instance, he could nut be expected to
meet such a body with fends ; and, moreover, that body acre irre-
sponsible for their acts; it was impossible for a single individual
to cope with such a body. through appeale and through the various
Intricacies which Sr. association might be disposed to conduct him.
In Scotland, where the power of prosecution was vested in an indi-
vldual, he was responsible for the propriety of his conduct, and that
was a sufficient security against a prosecution being improperly
heought. The same may be said of ,he power of instituting
prosecutions being vested in other officers of Government. The
Convention Act, and a Bill for the suppression of Illegal Societies.
were the Bills which it was intended to take for a foundation on
which to legislate on the present occasion. The latter of these
Bills bad been introduced two years ago, ye; Societies were still
found to exist in Ireland, which this Bill was intended to suppress,
and front its having been so little efficacious for the purposes of its
introduction hitherto, he did not expect it would become much
more so, if extended to the Catholic Association. The leading
/members of that body, Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Shiel, would find
ample opportunities of eluding it—they would foil your utmost
efforts. He would take the likety of reading to the House the
declaration of Mr. O'Connell on the subject, as elicited from bum
on the late occasion of the prosecution against him—" The late
prosecution, he considered, showed the vigilance of the Govern.
[pent over the proceedings of the Auocietion, as well u over his
conduct, and it proved that in neither could there be detected *
violation of the law. As to the prosecution itself, he regretted it
did not evince a kindlier feeling for the situation in which he was
it was a sorry attempt on himself. He was not appre.
iv;
from the operation of any law that might be enacted
against the Association. If Parliament were unwilling that the
Association should meet in that house, then they would build
another and meet in it; if they enacted a law against their meeting
in the manner in which they now assembled, yet the Legislature
surely would not enact a law to prevent them from dining loge.
then" (jieer, hese) Thus, in whatever way the law was trained-
. the ingenuity of the leaders of the Association would be enabled to
elude its provisions, and meet as they hitherto had done. He
begged to call the attention of the House to whet had formerly
been done respecting the Catholics. On the suppression of the
Catholic Committee, the Catholic Board was formed ; it consisted
of the Peen, the sons of Peers, Baronets, anti the sons of Baronets.
eaad tea delegates from each county. This, too, was suppressed by
the Right ffonourablesSeeretary far the Home Department and the
Itoosseekee leasibee fat the comity of Clare, (Mr.. V. Fitzgerald.)
who were then joint-Secretaries for Ireterid. Hat they were
sooner suppressed than they met under some new shape and form •
and thus, if this Associatron were now suppressed, it would be only
calculated to irritate those against whom then ensure was directed--
the ingenuity of a skilful and experienced lawyer, who prince.
pally directed its proceedings__and it would revive in some new
shape, and the Catholics would laugh at the vain and idle efforts to
put them down. The chicanery and intricacies of law would be
resorted toto enable them to evade anyßill that might be introduced
to restrain them. Besides, the House should bear in mind that there
was one qualification of Parliament which this Association did not
possess--it was not (if he might use the expression) a ponderously
armed body like this Legislature, which was not obliged to carry
the heavy materiel which accompanied the mowenients of the lute
perial Parliament. On the other band, this Association could wry
on its proceedings with infinitely greater ease ; and Mr. O'Con-
nell, Mr. Shiel. and a Reporter, would effect all the purposes of the
Association, as well as the regular meetings of that body. Since
the formation of that Association, it could not be denied that the
outrages, the murders, and conflagrations, which filled tip the nte•
lane-holy page of Ireland's history, had not been heard of. Much
credit was unquestionably due to Government for the 'impression
of thesedisturbances • much also to the Catholic Association. Not
only were rents laid—lce spoke from personal observation afforded
him by I late visit to that country—but leases were made. This
latter circumstance was the more gratifying, as it showed the
growing security of property ; for unless there was a prospect
and assurance of such security, the peasantry would rather trust to
the chapter of accidents, than enter into a contract not likely
to be observed and adhered to. (Hear, hear.) The measures of
Government were calculated, he had said, greatly to promote the
tranquillity of these measures. Those which he thought had
been attended with most advantage were the Tithe Composition
Act and the Police Act : the former had been attended with the
most salutary effects ; the latter bad also its advantages. He had
observed that they were generally respectable and decent men, and
had been guilty of few, very few offences (Hear, hear, from the
Alinisterial benches) : at the same time that lie admittiel their
utility he must say,• that they were a body which required the
most attire vigilance and watchful control of Government, for
they had in the principle of their formation all that was objection-
able in a military force, without their discipline or regular organi-
zutien. The address of the Catholic Association, issued through
the priests to the people, had unquestioolbly been midge-
tire of the utmost advantages; the eloquent and eathetis ap-
peal to refrain front disturbance and outrage could not fad
in producing the most beneficial effects on the minds of
that generous and impassioned people. The passage in the ad-
dress, " by the hatred you bear to Orangemen, who are your
natural enemies," did not, io his opipion, merit all the cen-
sure that had been heaped upon it. Ne'lten he Wipe Alaberly)
was in Dub:in, lie heard front persons who were rot members
of the Catholic Association, that an intention existed in the
minds of the Orangemen to create an insurrection in the Muth
of Ireland. Of such an intention he (Mr. Al.) was not swats ;
hut if the Catholic Association were impressed with this idea, it
was natural for them to adjure the people, by the detestation they
bore to those who would excite them to disturbance, and who
were their natural enemies, to abstain from outrage. It was an
inducement to the pease:nay as keep tee peace; and this con-
struction of the passage, which he conceived to be a fair ooe, was
not subject to all the reprobation with which it had been treated
by. Hon. Members on the opposite side of the House. Cer-
tainly some plots of this kind had been got up. Ile did not
know whether the Government and the House were in possession
of the Aboscrea plot, which was detected by the Hon. Member for I
Queen's County (Sir H Parnell) than whom nogentlemen was better
reformed or the affairs of Ireland. There were va, ,ous other
fabricated plots which had bun detected. Than circumstances
greatly palliated, if they did not altogether justify, the passage of
the Address which had been ao commenter' upon. Ile bad visited
the counties of Limerick, Clare, end Co:lt, and he found the ut-
most tranquillity prevailing, where of :ate outrage had so prevail-
ed. The great and chief cause of that tranquility was the hoe
weed condition of the people. (lieu, hear.) Agricultural prices'
had improved • this was the secret—tae people were happy and
proopeneu, aril therefore they were quiet. (Cheers from the Mi-
nisterial benches.) There will one point in which lie most fully
concurred with the Honourable Barmier, the Member far the
Queen'? County. It was this--thist the Biblical discussions which
had lately taken place in that couoty had excited great irritation
I throughout Inlaid. The pilgrimages of the two crusaders,
Capt. Gordon and Mr. Neil, trail rendered the whole of the South
of Ireland one large arena of religious controversy—they had
meetings in Cork, Limerick, Kilkeni.y. Waterford, and in other
• towns and cities in .Ireland—they were every where met fry the
I Catholic Clergy sued every where left the track of their baneful
• progress steer them. They proposed to makSocatirin their ok,
loud
het had not gone far wheu they epe vowed that they
t proselytism and convention is view. he were getter:illy
opposed, and it was a remarkable fact, the: those persons seed

pee
With this view the temporary ' biiriers that were erected for the
purpose of dividing, were broken down, several of the candles
extinguished, and a scene of riot and confusion tnnk place, the
moat disgusting end disgraceful. The doers of the chapel had
been closed, and the violent knocking and yells of those without
contributed not a little to the horror of the scene. Mr. Bat.
terstiy, the officer commanding the police, having intimated to
the Clergy of the Eitel:tithed Church, that from information of
which he watt in sion, as well as his own personal observation,
he could not undertake to be answerable far their lives, mien they,
immediately retired, the Rev. Mr. Winfield, Daly, Pope, and
Jamieson. were obliged to scale a wall eight feet high, whereby they
escaped the insults and attacks of an infuriate rabble.
" Mr. Clowry asked if the meeting was to be adjourned, and for
what period."
" The Chairman—The meeting is adiourred, sine die.
" Mr. Clowry—Then I am quite satisfied for the present. (Lee(
and triumphant cheers.;
" The Rey. Mr. O'Connell then weeded the pulpit, from whiat '
the Rev. Gettleman gave thanks to God for the triumph that had
been achieved ; and ales returned thanks to Colonel !emblem for
the manner in which lie contributed to it." (Loud laughter from
all sides of the House.;
Now he (Captain Me alluded principally to the irritation end
opposition, which the mission of these Gentlemen excited through:
out the country. He had been at a meeting of the Anxieties.
in Dublin last July; he was there unknown; the speeches ap-
peared to him generally moderate, although some intemperanoei
was man' fested on some topic relitive to the disposal or management
of the Rent. At that time they were only collecting eeor 50/. a week.
In a few months afterwards they collected front three to four hen_
deed pounds: this increase could, in his judgment, only be Me
counted for by the feeling of irritation which bed been excited in
the minds of the Boman Catholics by there Bible meetings. (Hear.)
The attacks of the ('eerier which followed these meetings also
tended to increase the rent. and augment the irritation. One other
consideration weighed with him very strongly to oppose the prolett
manure. The Catholics had placed the fullest confidence in tees
Amocianon ; they conceived that this was the body through when;
exertions their emancipation was to be achieved. Now. it this As-
snciation were put down, and this their favourite object was roc
accomplished, their disappointment would be great in proporeon
to the confidence which they reposed in that body. (Hear, bear.)
An enthusiasm was spread throughout the peasantry in favour If
Ibis body, and the reaction of feeling which the putting it down
would create would be most mischievous, poignant, anteszatioos.
He certainly did not approve of all the proceedings of that body,
but the House were not put in posseetion of proved facts to wine
rant the presert measure for its suppression, and the facts
sboold indeed he among tbse would warrant t':: adopption of any new
measure of leghdation to be Nit% ' efessesinitqa.
M misters had punted a Illskit exteaordinery and mischievous etrifeet
in bringing the House to legielete on a measure, the cause of whtch
they were in total ignorance of. They were ignorant of the nature
of the Aerociatice respecting which they were called upon to act.
He confessed, that he never looked upon the assembly in question
in any other light, as far as its injurious tendency went, than as
likely to stop Catholic Einancipution in Ireland. As a n.easere
that would throw back that meat desirable step. he looked upon it
with jealousy and distrust. If, however, on 11;41sccount, he:could
pot approve of the Ante/stern, still he should ever say that theet
was notch to cuteneate in their conduct. They had been pined
by their opponents into much inflammatory language, and Into
conduct that they would probably never have pursued, had it not
been far such collision. lithe subscription of 'lie
Association was
small, the members were taunted that they the not represent the
feelings and wishes of the Irish people. It it were large, they were
denounced as factious demagogues, whose only object was ta at;;
up rebellion and outrage. He felt that there were difficulties in
this case, arising more out of the conduct of the opponents of the
Catholic Association, than out of that of the rrembere of it; but
in this, as in all other cases of a similar nature, the Legislature
met be actuated in their consideration of it by a balance of evil..
lie thought that the Legislature would act most unadvisedly. if
they acted in hostility to this assembly They ought not to put
' down this Association without they dearly saw that the ever
it brought with it counterbalanced those that weuld result from its
suppression. He consider it very doubtful whether it could be
virtually suppressed, but t t the attempt must lend to mischiee.
and that irritation and to leece would succeed it, experience and
the state of the Catholic mind in Ireland would clearly point ant.
The Homes must either conseet to the fair demands of the Cadet-
' hes. or drive them into heti, and cornets at in the days of Cram-
' eali—perhaps to extermination--ruid that "veld be the only meet. i
of getting free from the question without their just claims went
admitted, for so long as the Catholic settee could be beard it wou:d
be loud in urging them. It was on this ground, and as an Ice of
justice, that he felt a mild and conciliatory course shauld be bate
sited towards the ('atholics. That amelioratic n of their conditon
must sooner or later enure was quite clear; be hoped it maid rot
be delayed until it was no longer considered a boon, and the too-
cession would only be the result of tumult aid confusior.
Su NICHOLAS COLTH URS3' could not for a moment cert.
' sent that a body should exist in hostility to the conseteted authe-
ntic., and against the interests of the country. In this body a^.
attempt wail made to interfere with the administration of justice
it was to them, and to there WOW, that they taught the people to
look for assistance. They cellected a revenue that he could can by
no other name titan a tax ; and in support of that assertion be
souk! read a letter, with the permission of the House. the: a
reepectable gentleman in the South of Ireland received on the tree-
' jest of the Catholic Rent. This gentlemen had not allewee hit
tenants to subscribe to it. The letter was to the following elect •e--
" Dear Sir,—There is a report current here that ecia do rot .et
your tenants pay to the Catholic Rent. elay I, en- the titer pi.
speaful manner, request of you to contradict so injurious a report .
a. I must render an account to the Asmeienion of all those who a-e
emposed to the Rent." (Hear, hear.) The Asreciation say. Veit
Ireland, through their Mello,, was treacle:lie:de but he wished
Ireland only to be trareptheted by the laws. leetehaveght, however.
that the present tranquillity of Ireland was awing to a tar :efface;
cause. He thought it arose from the extraordinary rosters con.
mined to die Government, to the improved ceneition ot the pte.
pie, to the influx of Engine capital, manners see habits. It was
because he thought the Association would pervert these advaateeet
that he radially supported the ?unsure before the House.
Colonel DAVIES, in opposing the present motion, wits ready to
admit that there were cases oi particular emergency in 1111:01 the
legislature might be induccate depart feoin the street prettier: feet
helofe they did that, they ought to have facts stated to theta Obit
should be sufficient to induce them to go into the constderatlee of
the question. If he could penny:: himself that with reotiments
of attachment to the Covritutann, the Association was ateene
deadly blows evilest it, and lied a design to tWCPIUr3 it, the;. be
would apply arms to put it down ; he should then be nerdy to
c;:thiireseenntset:lvrarinjw:::yta 'sr
hdaenftft;e:ndtanhiniduearce:rtttoghl.‘itbionnntattecY,ereti,:tuelahez,rchehiandiialt.::::rfitertzmeriovipmuletf:p-hginuentreebwel,iilectifnhralaak was sttugarMeaf:lthV,lmti.ln'ittithdblia:hy.tiie;engage..:net.;:ettut:rinki!tu-s0:1:ti.
theekteg that these tem:intents wheel -
this Rill, he could not help
li. sotxrkanaget tteirooettiofe,.poilitti.seelii
id
on account of their religious faith; they earf Pr,ld,:ig„,r, —zhimette,„,,lll
ment by a ballot and other means. cheese • • tee fn --d
- ;dm-N.-.
11. d..o4MtiLekreoagfurst Calm)* ie./teed
I were held together*
andsstroger ties than native • ' eeper "ee -
relay
had all the howlers entehments Irelend ena"kt . th would hold together and eull together. litiis missure_ hit -: sei
tef re ,
aimed at the total minitheetion of the ca4h0;,,1, and wawa ~,,,,,

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idiesochert the s)rahgetriea ; bat he equally believed that they
mould both remain as efficient after it was pawed as before. Ile
did not stand up as the advocate of Catholic Emancipation; but he
thought it too touch to attack men for what they mid in the heat of
depute, with their feelings irritated and certainly acting under con-
dosed disappointment. It had been calculated that the Catholic
sent would amount to 30.0001. annually ; how that conclusion had
been arrived at, he did not know • but this he knew, that until the
agitation of this measure, the Carhlie Rent was dying a natural death.
It was by collision that it had increased. In one parish that belonged
rota splotlanian of his acquaintance, not a single shilling was con-
rlpfloolad to the Catholic Rent ; but what gave vigour and strength
.110,il was in a great degree the want of fair administration of
Leo--there was one law for the rich and another for the
lair in Ireland. The Catholic peasant would be unwilling to dole
it a part of his pittance to the Catholics, did he not expect to
rellslnself from oppression. They did not care for Catholic
'potion ; but the middle and upper classes, who found
eltesaabses excluded from offices that the law bad made them
Algal, to, naturally became more discontented flan that cause
than they otherwise would be from their other disabilities; and
they infused that discontent into their inferiors, who were easily
worked upon, in consequer.°-e of the injustice they themselves
experienced. There were 2,000 offices to which the Catholics
were eligible, and there were only 11l Catholics elected to them.
They must be something less than men if they could bear such
Moatinent. Were they to be led like sheep to the slaughter,
abut offering resistance ? As a proof of the sort of justice that
Esuticted upon in Ireland, he would just relate the following
—ln the county of Imadonderry a policeman had been out
ng. On his return home, in passing by a farm-house.
• ran out after him. The policeman turned round
the dog. The farmer's son came to the door to
to with him for shooting the dog. The policeman !n-
-ab* fired and kilted the young man. The tither afterwards ,
WINS out, and the policeman shot the old man also, because he did
OM ease such temperate language as he ought to do. This man
was subsequently toed and acquitted. Could the House be sur-
prised at men thus situated throwing themseloes into the arms of
their superiors in rank and fortune, to endeavour, in common with
Chem. to be relived from such oppression ? Believing this mea-
sure to be fraught with the most dangerous consequences, and that
inroad of tranquillising, it would tend to disturb and irritate Ire-
land, he should give it his decided negative.
Mr. DOOHEItT y observed, that it had been his lot more than
once to bear testimony to the opinion, that the Catholic body had
net so great an enemy es the Catholic Association; and if he had
befoul any doubt upon that point, the two speeches that. the House
bad heard would justify the observation. The Gallant Colonel
who spoke last had told them that he had always been against the
Catholic claims, but be supported the Catholic Association. His
Honourable Friend (for so he hoped he might be permitted tern('
Mm) who had spoken last but ore, the Member for Cork,
had stated, that he bad always supported the Catholic
claims, but at the same time he had said, that he should vote
for putting down the Catholic Association. He had never had
so opportunity or giving an opinion upon that great question Ca-
Biotic Emancipation. In that House no occasion had been afforded
to him, and out of it he had carefully abstained from expressing
his wishes, which were most ardent in behalf of the Catholic cause.
Re sincerely hoped that no intemperate conduct on the part of the
Catholic body, no obstinate perseverance in a course that could not
be tolerated, would prevent him from giving that vote that he so i
much desired to give, which he always believed would be a bles-
sing to the country. He claimed no merit for this feeling ; it was
that of every one of his lion. Friends around him ; but this was
not a question of feeling. Every one would much more willingly
take the popular side of a question, and therefore it was that upon
this difficult, delicate, and momentous question, he respected the
opinions of those who had come to the determination they had come
to. Ile was sorry that he had been led 53 much as lie even had
been, into what was tailed the Catholic Question. It was beside
the question a little; but it was impossible to apnroach the mea-
sure before the House without goingtullv as much as he had done into
it. He thought that no one could deny that the Association which was
now existing in Ireland had been carrying on proceedings at variance
with the Constitution. An alarm was now general amongst the
Protestants, and in his Mod it was a just alarm. It was an
apprehension existing amongst the Protestant body generally,
not particularly amongst the Orangemen ; but every sober,
rational, and well regulated man, who viewed the subject with
calmness, and without the feelings of patty, considered this
association as subversive of the best interests of Ireland.
The Hon. Member then wont on to state, that it was an undeniable
fact, and well known to every person acquainted with the history of
the country, that the political vice of the Irish nation consisted in
their proneness to indulge in illegal conventions—as the grand evil
wish afflicted England trom time to time was the propensity of the.
people to break out into sudden and violent expressions of their
memo. In other words, convention was the curse of Ireland, and
a mob the evil most to be apprehended in England. He would
maintain, that the onject of the Catholic Association was to over-
awe Parliament into concession or connivance, and that it was
impossible there could exist any freedom of sentiment or argument
calculated to lead the House tp a wise determination on the subject
of Ireland, if it was to be put down by the daring efforts of the
Catholic Association. No other delegated body that preceded it
had ever venturrd to go to the same lengths as this had done. The
lion. Member for Northampton (('apt. Maberly) had said Mi-
nisters had offered no proof to the House, even of the existence of
the Catholic Association. The speech of the Hon. Gentleman
himself had proved it ; for he hail informed the House that he was
present at one of their meetings. He likewise added, that he had
witnessed very little intemperance in thcir proceedings. He could
assure the lion. Gent. that he had been extremely fortunate in wit.
samistan assembly of that nature, which had been only in a small
Ittulemperate. Others had not been equally fortunate. He
maettentively watched the operations of the Association, and
egad the publications, which professed to be their organs, and it ,
would not be hazarding an inconsiderate assertion to say, that no;
body of mess had ever joined in putting forth documents so 10am)...
inatoey, or so much calculated to excite the worst feelings and
edicts. What was the tendency of their famous proclamation to
the people of Ireland, but to produce such consequences ? It
bad been called a positive good to the country ; he looked upon it
as IN greatest evil—an evil, for the existence of which they should
not make themselves responsible. The Catholic leaders had
established an Association—
'• To fright the Isle from its propriety."
This they weresaid to hare done in pursuit of their privileges, but,
he would ask, was such conduct argument, or was it intimidation ?
Such an Association would not be tolerated an instant in this coun-
try ; it would be pot down in a week. If such a body would be
dangerous in England, what most it be io Ireland, where irramibi-
lity and irritated political feeling were the characteristics of the po-
pulation. One who knew the country and its inhabitants well had
said, that there existed in Ireland a dense mass of population, pos-
sessing feelings the most inflammable, ready to mount the erattfold
in defence of their prejudices. and always easily allured to join the
cause of a foreign invader. This was not a mere abstract principle;
it was unfortunately no longer a hypothetical case ; it had been
submitted to proof in the inatanceot the French invasion of Kil-
laloe. The grounds assumed by the Catholic Association, and
their invariable representations were, that they only sought an ex-
teosion of the privileges of the Constitution to their body at large,
and what they were pleased to call an equal distribution of justice
to persona of every creed and profession. If they seek for a just
Cortetitutional share of privilege, he was most anxious they should
not be debarred front it, but he was sure they had no reason to
complain of an unequal distribution of justice. He would assert,
without fear of contradiction, that juatice was measured out with an
even hand is Ireland ; the Coons were open alike to rich and poor,
and without distinction of religion or party. Two years ago the
Roman Catholic body had entrusted their petition to the hands of
toe Hon. Member fir Winchilsra. (tlr. Brougham,) and the
Jo.smed and Hon. Gent. had thought it necessary to state to the
ifo.tse, that the petition which be presented was one of mere ge-
neral propositions, without actual details, and, in short, containing
every thing but facts. In the course of this very day the minutes
of the evidence taken before the Committee of Irish Affairs last
hessan had been laid upon the table. An inquiry into the state of
the administration of justice in Ireland, formed a prominent feature
in the report. Several witnesses had been examined upon this sub-
ject, men of respectable character and competent information. The
Lrst witness was Mr. Illackburne. a gentleman of talent and the
highest respectability, and his evidence went to establish, in the
most satisfactory manner, the equal administration of justice in
Ireland. Mr. Bennett gave similar testimony. The next he should
mention was a gentleman of the moat irreproachable character, and
possessing opportunities for coining to a correct conclusion rarely
enjoyed by an 'individual ; hr meant Mr. Day, late one of the
Judges of his Majesty's Court of King's Bench in Ireland. This
tinoendilen received
was of opinion that the body of the population in Ire.
equal justice, and were, in that respect, on a corre-
spondent footing with the inhabitants of England. The conduct of
petit Juries, he considered unexceptionable, as far as had came
within his knowledge. These bodies were composed of Protes-
tang' and Catholics indifferently. The Girar.d Juries were composed
of Protestants only, and he called the attention of the Gallant OfII.
41W (Colooel Davis) to this point moreparticularly, because, in fact,
the Protestant Gentry are far noire numerous than the Catholic. To
onion to Mr. Day, he declared it as his conviction, that the consi.
iteration of religious distinctions never entered into the imagine.
toms of Juries, when called upon to the discharge of their fume-
twos, which he was persuaded they fulfilled faithfully. He was
sot aware of any exception to this remark. which applied equally
to every part of Ireland. God grant ! (said the Honourable Mem-
ber) every Judge in that country may have it in his power to ex-
press a similar sentiment ; but in his opinion they would not,
were the Catholic Association to be left io the undisturbed exercise
of its arrogated power. He could not admit that any reform in the
Lode of administering justice was necessary ; no case had been
made out to that edict—if it were, he would not accept the reform
Iran such hands. If justice required to be purified, that was not
to be effected by a subscription. Tile Assoitiation have interfered
will, the administration of justice, and erected themselves into a
is.dy fcr the purpose of directing prosecutions. They have, at this
instant, ',mooted an action, which now stands for trial against a
most respectab:e Pt otiotant gentleman. The Jury who would have
ts ley the case would be in the proportion of ten Catholics to two
t•rotastants. Tina action was, as hr had said, raised by the Cs-
tioill• Association, and under their immediate sanction. The motto
and principle of the Association was, 't Whoever is not with us is
age. Ist us." They were acting upon principles similar to those
adopted by the Convention of 1791, which, as was stated in
tl.e Report of the Irish House of Lords, had collected large funds.
and expended them in the defence of persons accused of political
and other climes. Under such circumstances, if the Association
were not only constitutional, but strictly legal, the plea of legality
mold not be pairtnitted to avail it, when it artogatad powers so hos-
ed, to every principlo of sound policy and safety. He had the au.
amity of the Learned (iendernin opposite (the Member ISt Witt-
. . .

_.. a

ehilsea), on th:s subject, who had expressed similar sentiments in
the cue of the Constitutional Association. The conduct of the
Convention of 1791 wasoriffing when compared with that of the
Catholic Association in the present day. What was to hr thought I
if an assembly should sit from February to July. under the osten-
sible pretence of petitioning, and should do anything and every-
thing but. petition ? The levying of a tax to be applied to secret
purposes was the principal object of the Association. It had been
asserted that the contribution was voluntary on the part of the Ca-
tholic
population ; he took leave to dissent from that opinion. It
was a mistake to suppose the peasantry of Ireland had money dis-
posable to such purposes. The contributions were not obtained till
the powerful engine of the Catholic Church was brought to bear
upon the feelings and prejudices of the people. lie could not ad-
mit the propriety of permitting the existence of two nooses of
Parliament. The Catholic Association was a Parliament sitting
from week to week. They did not admit themselves to be the re-
presentatives of the people, that they might not come under the
provisions of the Convention Act, but however they might cloak or
disguise the fact, they openly professed to be their virtual repre-
sentatives. They stated themselves not the appointed hut the
adopted representation of the Catholic body. If the Catholics were
to have a representative assembly, he would rather it were a re.
gularly appointed and recognized one, which might be held ac-
countable for its acts, than such an association as the present. He
was not of the opinion of Gentlemen who imagined this Assembly
to possess the entire confidence of the Catholic Association. A
Roman Catholic' Gentleman of the greatest respectability (Mr.
Dunn) had informed him, that though not a member of the /Ow-
' ciation, he had acted upon a Committee appointed for the collec-
tion of rent, but withdrew himself on the institution of prose-
cations by the Association, and expressed the strongest disappro-
bation to their measures. Ills opinion was, that the Catholics
disapprove of the acts of the Association. He hoped in Gud they
did ; for if they would not separate themselves from that body,
: they would be indefinitely postponing the consummation of their
wishes. The Association atte:npts to exercise a tyranny over
the Catholic body, and he could very well understand the
reason why persons of retired habits and reluctant to expose
themselves to the violence of the Association, should, in am.
pearanee, acquiesce in their measures. The Association lays
claim to the tranquillization of Ireland. Ile was happy to say it
was tranquil, but its tranquillity was entirely owing to the wise,
prudent, and temperate measures adopted by the present Chief Go.
vernor of Ireland. lie agreed with the Honourable Member who
said he would not owe the tranquillity of Ireland to any other power
than the Government of the country. He certainly would not be
indebted for it to an Association whose feelings were utterly hostile
to the Constitution, and whose admonitions to the people were, that
" they would find each field a redoubt, and every hill it tower of
strength, and Ireland might shake off her enemies
• Like dew-drops from a lion's mane.' "
It was not his wish to impute an actual desire to the leaders of the
Catholic Association to excite sedition or effect separation between
the countries. They had doubtless said many things incautiously,
and without any fixed purpose, led away, as they might have been,
by the excitement of popular enthusiasm and applause. He hoped,
though the House should think it necessary to put down the Asso-
ciation, there would exist no necessity to double the army, as had
been asserted by Gentlemen on the other side. He felt persuaded
the Catholics would rot attempt to oppose the determination of the
House. It was not from the Catholic Peers, from such persons as
, Lord Kenmare and Earl Fingal, they were to expect opposition.
The Honourable Member for Lincoln (Mr. Williams) had miscon-
ceived the intention of the Convention Act of 1793. That was an
Act levelled not against the tlatholies, but another and distinct body
of persons. lie thought he possessed a little more experience on
the subject than the Honourable Gentleman, and he felt convinced
the Roman Catholics would offer no resistance, but submit to the
decision of the House be it what it might. Gentlemen of the Ho-
nourable Member's profession were in the habit of holding one pre-
cedent as better than many arguments, and the Catholics had a pre-
cedent which he had no doubt they would follow in this instance.
He alluded to the resolutions of the Irish House of Commons, re.
lative to the volunteers in 1782. When the volunteers sent in heir
proposition for reform in Parliament, they passed the celebrated
resolutions to which he adverted, on which Judge Day, who had
been himself one of the volunteers, thus expressed himself:
" The House, roused by the eloquence of 31r. Yelrerton
(the then Attorney-General), startled from its lethargy, and
annihilated the Convention." The volunteers of that period
were like many Catholics of the present day, not aware of
the illegality of their conduct. They received the rebuke of the
House with humility, and immediately disbanded. That the
conduct of the House would be equally decisive on the present
occasion, and the conduct of the Catholics similar to that of the
Volunteers in their submission to the authority of Parliament, he
hoped and trusted, for the sake of the well-being and tranquilliza-
tion of Ireland.
Mr. J. DALY opposed the principle propounded by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, when he said that the conduct of Irish Members,
and the part they took in this question, was regulated by the num.
bee and profession of their constituents in that country. He must
for himself disclaim the imputation in the strongest anti most direct
terms. He was the Representative of a county, the majority of
whose population were Roman Catholics ; but if he entertained the
opinion that the Catholic Association should be put down, that
circumstance would not operate against the expression of his sen-
timents on the subject. But he held a contrary opinion—he did
not think the Association injurious, and could not therefore concur
with those whose wish it weal° bring in a special enactment against
it. Neither could he feel more disposed to concur with the Hon.
Gentleman in his sentiments relative to the administration of justice
in Ireland. He was prepared to any it was neither pure nor im-
partial. How could it be so as the Juries were constituted ?
(heir prejudices accompanied them even into the jury-box, and
the expression of a good Jury and a Protestant one were synoni-
mous. The feeling was, that the law was partial ; rot its admini-
stration under Lord Wellesley. He did not blame his Right Hon.
Friend if he did not 'weed in his prosecutions. A Catholic
placed in the same situation must have failed. The Catholics of
Ireland feel thertrelves.a degraded caste ; its peasantry, a most
high-spirited people, feels itself most severely aggrieved. The
subject he would next allude to was the assertion of the Hon.
Gentleman, that there was a great number of dissenters from the
Catholic Association. If there was, they were insignificant in rank
and station. The Catholic Association has had the merit of unit-
ing in the bonds of unanimity, not alone the Catholics in all parts
of Ireland, but also the Catholics throughout England : through it
has the step been attained of forwarding their cause. He felt a
great difficulty and unwillingness in speaking on the subject, fear-
ful, as he was, of weakening what had been previously said by
his Hon. Friends, who were so well calculated to give it every
illustration ; it was his duty to speak, and if he omitted doing
so he would beuilty of a great dereliction. The question
now brought befogre the House is not alone that of putting
down the Association, but it also involves the question of
emancipation, and numerous other interests, either directly or in-
directly connected with it. Ile was not prepared to say that the
Association was in consonance with the spirit of the Constitution ;
but the evil of it was as limited as could reasonably be expected.
From the time of Lord Strafford until the present moment, the
situation of Ireland was unchanged. The lower order of Irish
(the majority) knew no difference between the name of.. Protestant
and Englishman ; and in the language of the country, when they
would express the word Protestant, they made use of exgctly the
same term as they do to express an Englishman, thus idfttifying
the one with the other, considering him of a different country, and
as separated from all national brotherhood by a strong line of poli-
tical demarcation. Ireland, though united to England, has been
treated as a colony. Lord Kenmare and the Earl of Fingal, though
originally English, are now Irish. The Marquis of Thomontl and
Earl O'Neil, being Protestants, are considered as English. Eleven
fourteenths of the population of Ireland are degraded and disquali-
fied, like aliens in kin. lie would say, that if the majority of the
people is not governed according to the spirit of the British Consti-
tution, the Insurrection Act must be revived, and en additional
army kept tip. For the twelve years since lie had been in the
House, lie had voted for the numhenof 20,090 men exclusively for
Ireland. He had supported Ministers, though he by no means
considered himself bound to do so. If Government felt indisposed
to grant the people their just rights, they should not endeavour to
abridge their existing liberties. In the difficulties of this case,
their more proximate origin is to be found in that disunion which
is known to prevail in die Cabinet as to emancipation. They
allege that it is out of their power to pass the Catholic question ;
if so it would have been far more advantageous to have
unanimously resisted it; yet he would admit, that the oftener it was
discussed die better; the measure cannot and will not be ultimately
effected, unless brought forward by Ministers themselves; they
considered it a question of secondary and not primary importance:
they seem not to recollect that it is one of vital consequence : as it
affects the pacification and prosperity of the country, the recogni.
tion of the independence of South America, or the secession from
the Holy Alliance, were nothing when compared to it. The worst
possible Government that ingenuity could devise, for Ireland, was
the present divided one; the best plan fur the adoption of its mem-
bers, under the present circumstances, would be to unite and come
forward manfully. The Honourable Gentleman did not think, if
the Bill was passed and the Association put down, that any ser-
viceable results would follow ; nor did he believe that, by its meet.
mem, the people would be &hen Into rebellion; lie was sure they
would continue peaceable fqx evert the knout member of the Ca.
thistle !tidy Is sensible that hinemancipation, and consequent oar- 1
ticipation in the benefice of the Constitution, depends solely on
peaceable conduct; disaffection is not now what it was formerly—
the people are civilized, and, to a certain extent, educated ; they I
can appreciate the benefits from which they are excluded, and wilt I
not, on light grounds, resort to a violence which would necessarily I
throw impedimenta or furnish an excuse to deny their demands.
I He personally knew that their misgovernment had reduced them to I
a state which he would be ashamed to mention in that House; it i
is the disabilities under which they have struggled which have I
caused their present degradation ; this Bill is not sufficient. The I
House may hereafter be called on for a censorship on the press, and
an increase in the army of sixty thousand men ; the people are now
full of hope—the House should take care not to procrastinate that I
hope ; if they are told that the British Constitution is exclusively I
and purely Protestant, and that they, 'as Roman Catholics, cannot
be admitted within it. boundaries, he would ask, what will be the I
consequences Or who can anticipate their magnitude? lies as an
Irish Protestant, must be considered as an intruder in his own
country, unless the House could show him how to get over the line.
of demarcation. It is true that the Roman Catholic might arrive at
wealth, but he could not rise to honours. The people of Ireland I
are remarkable fur their ambition and this bar to its gratification
is to them not an Imaginary, but a real and well grounded cause of I
complaint. The Honourable Gentleman concluded by observing, 1
that when next the subject came before the House, he would be I
prepared to enter meg largely on its discussion.
Mr. WILIAAMIFILLIA BIS did not hesitate to confess, that
he viewed the Ronnui Catholic Association of Ireland as at variance I

a

THE BRITISH PRESS.

with the principles of the Constitution, and inimical to the best
interests and welfare of Ireland. Ile was convinced that the sen.
timents of its members were viewed with disapprobation by num-
ber*, not alone io Ireland. but also in this country. Flom what he
had heard, and he had no reason to doubt the aceu-acy of hi. infor-
mation (would that he had), religious animosity, to a moat frightful
extent, pervaded all parts of Ireland. If it wan the duty of the
Holm to linty that animosity, to pacify the perturbed spirit which
is so prevalent. and quirt party feuds and discords, it is its duty to
do so without delay. It the measure which is now under discus-
, Rion is not carried into cffeet, it will be giving • triomph to the
Boman Catholics, which, in the present state of the country, would
be a mcst serious evil. By this exprmition of his sentiments lie
would not be understood as pledging himself to support the Bill ;
for it tufght.so happen, that when it came on to be further discussed
it would be found to contain clauses encroaching on the spirit of the
Constitution, every one of which he would feel himself bound to
oppose. He estijiryed the benefits of the Constitution himself, and
wished—wished most ardently, that rot alone the Catholic, but
every being of the human race, could be brought within its pale.
Never were the people so adverse to the Roman Catholic—never
were they so adverse to their claims—and to the conduct of the
Association he was convinced their hostility was attributable; it
was calculated to the defeat of that object they have so much at
heart, and to produce interminable heart.buroings and discord.
tChatever subjecte they may have to complain of, they should not
irritate by their speeches--they aliould not endeavour to extend
their powers, but submit to the Constitution.
Mr. 110MINIC IrlitOWNE—The great noise which prevailed
in the House while this Gentleman wan speaking, and his low tone
I of voice, prevented our being able to hear the lion. Member's ob-
servations; as far as they could be collected, they were that the
acts and establishment of the Catholic Association spread alarm
throughout Great Britain.
Mr. It. MARTIN was ready to admit the statements made by
his Hon. Friend, and to subscribe to almost all the deductions he
had drawn. When he was in Ireland, be went to the Catholic As-
sociation, and pointed out tots influential members, the errors they
had fallen into, and those they were likely to commit. He was lie-
tamed to with attention, and be believed with a feeling that the mo-
tives that actuated his interference were derived by his anxiety for
their benefit. That the Amociation was instrumental in pacify-
ing the country/ he would readily grant, but he must confess.
that I e did not look upon this with as touch complacency or
gratification of mind as others appeared inclined to do. It
would be well to remember, that the same arm which ex-
tended the trident over dm angry billows, and assuaged the
tempest, might hereafter *won the waves, and drive the tempest
from every point of the compass. As to the beneficial operation of
this Bill he had no great hopes; it will fail in its operation ; and it
may, perhaps, be found, that arter travelling forwards, we are just
where we set out. (Loud !magma.) The Association committed
one great fault in forming a union with the Gentlemen opposite,
and entrusting their Petition tc the Honourable Baronet, who,
with some ten or twelve others, when it came or. for discussion,
walked out of the House; because, as he said, he could not de-
pend on the Government how can he now bring it forward ? The
Hon. Gentleman concluded with some further observations.

Mr. WA BRE considered the proposed Ihll as an absurd
and inadequate measure. The disease proceeded from causes which
required a different remedy. He referred to what he considered an
historical inaccuracy in a remark which had fallen from an lion.
Member. That lion. Gendesnan, when adverting to that memo-
rable period of Irish history, the year 1782, stated that it was a
season of alarm, when illegal assemblies were numerous, and the
Volunteer Association assumed a threatening aspect. At that pe-
riod the Volunteer Associations certainly held a commanding atti-
tude, but how were they put down? by concessions—when the re-
quired concessions were made the Associations vanished. This
period was referred to as the era of Irish liberty—the era which
immortalised the name of Grattan. The great error had hitherto
been, that in legislating for Ireland, every act of concession was
embittered by restrictions, and accompanied by coercion. An lion.
Member (111 r. J. Italy ) had adverted to the Insurrection Act, which
he ttuiy stated to be little consonant with the British Constitution.
The way in which this extraordinary power that was conferred on
magistrates by this Act was exercised in Ireland, could not be con-
sidered as diminishing its objectionable character. In the county
of Tipperary, in the year IBM, 497 persons were apprehended and
tried under this Act, of whieh 'number 481 were acquitted. This
was a specimen of the manner in which the power was exercised
with which magistrates were invested by the Insurrection Act. He
confessed that nothing which he had heard at either side of the
House, and nothing which had fallen from the King's Ministers,
convinced him that the proposed measure would reach the Asso-
ciation, even as it now existed, or give assurance to the House
that even if it was put down by the proposed measure, it would not
be renewed and revived in another state. It was the irritation of
six millions of people breaking out, because they were placed in
most anomalous situation. hooking at the present state of Ire-
land. he could not help expressing his indelible conviction that
there was only one mode of cure for Ireland—granting to the Ca-
tholics their just rights. Ile recollected the triumphant manner in
which a Right Honourable Gentleman opposite had alluded to
Genuany, which had been the arena for religious hate, which had
been succeeded by the gentle spirit of toleration. lie had heard
something of a speech which fell front Lord Liverpool in the
House of Lords, in which his Lordship was recorded to have laid
it down as an axiom that there must be a religion holding exclusive
privileges. His Lordship quoted the case of Holland, which was
a free republican country, but in which a certain class was ;:eluded
from high civil offices. 'this was true as respected Old Holland, but
Belgium and Holland incorporated admit of no disqualification.
The representatives of these two countries, meeting together, differ-
ing in many patticulars, not cordially united, never contrived to
quarrel about religion. But this country was seen standing still,
while all the rest of the world was advancing in religious tolerance.
He believed that the Bill was objectionable, because it would fail
In suppressing the Association, and by this failure place tbs House
and the country in a worse predicament than it now was.
Mr. LESLIE FOSTER explained. in consequence of some
allusions which had been made by the last speaker, as to what had
from the Hon. Gentleman on the last evening, with regard to the
circumstances of Ireland in the year 1782.
Mr. C. W. WYNN concurred in much that had been stated
yesterday by Honourable Gentlemen at the opposite side of die
}louse. Ile admitted that he (lid not believe the measure proposed
could effect permanent tranquillity, if it was not accompanied by
Emancipation. (Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) But
it was not a sufficient reason, because Catholic Emancipation could
not be obtained, that the House should neglect to adopt other
measures, to remedy the most prominent evils. lie had never ne-
glected to declare his conviction, that the Emancipation of the
Catholics was an indispensible measure, and he regretted that the
Catholic Association, by its proceedings, had done much to pre-
judice the cause of Emancipation in this country. He was confi-
dent the Catholic Association had done more to prejudice the cause
by their acts, than ary other Association which ever existed. If
emancipation wasgranted he wasequally confident it would takefrom
the Association the power of doing mischief : it would weaken the
mischievous efforts of demagogues and strengthen the Government. I
The discussions of the Catholic Association had already produced
much rancour and animosity, but mischievous as it had been the
worst consequences were not yet produced. It was impossible to
calculate how many other associations of a like character might
spring up, and fill the country with animosities and bad feelings.
It was a physical axiom that action and re-action were equal, but
this was not true politically. Politically the re-action was in-
creased in force. Upon what principle could other political associ.
ations be kept under if the Catholic Association was unheeded, and
allowed to persevere. How could Protestants be prevented from
associating, and calling upon the Protestant inhabitants of Ire-
land, by the hate they bear to Papists." Can it be expected
that the violence of the Catholics will be met on the other side by
meekness and forbearance? or is it not snore probable that the feel-
ings of the Orange party will be still further excited, and tend to
produce an alarming state of exasperation If the Catholic Asso.
niation is not put down the house should repeal all laws against the
Orangemen. Associations of various descriptions have ever been
the curse of Ireland. In turn there were Whiteboys, Rightboys,
Peep-o'-dap-boys, and &number of other associations, under dif-
ferent names. Now, whilst one side should be tolerated, it must
be impossible to check the other. It may ba said that the proceed.
tags of associations had arisen from the feebleness of the Itiws and
the defects of the administration. It may also be said that the
feebleness of the laws and the defects of administration proceeded
front those unfortunate associations. Truth was the cause and
effect played for each other, and produced no very agreeable result.
Whenever endeavours were made to prejudice the public mind,
of course the laws wore perverted, and the source of justice poi-
soned. If the Act was intended to put down any particular As.
sociation, Its could not consider it founded upon justice, and it
should not have received his (Mr. Wynn's) support.. But the Act
was intended to reach both Protestants and Catholics. Associations,
SR he before observed, had been the bane of Ireland, and this Act
was intended be applied equally to all political Associations,
whether composed of Protestants or of Catholics. It was said that
the proposer'...-+essure would prove ineffectual. He hoped that this
prediction a711(1 not be verified. He thought the opinion of I'ar-
liament, publicly pronounced, upon the Association, would be suf-
ficient to suppress it. lie did not believe that the Members albs
Catholic 'Association would pertinaciously hold out, after such an
expression of opinion. If lionourabk Gentlemen looked with a
lawyer's eye at the Acts of Parlianieat which had been made, and
effectually made, at different periods, in England, to suppress Af-
vxiations, they might reasonably conclude that those Acts would
hare proved wholly ineffectual. But experience had detnonstrated
that the contrary was the result : the opinion of Parliament was
supported by the opinion of the country, and the Associations
against which the measures were directed, fell to the ground. Be-
fore he should sit down, he begged to say, he should be the last person
in that House, who would consent to compromise the just rights__
rights was a strong word, but he would continue to use it--of the
Catholics. Ile would also observe, that the proposed measure was
not supported by one side oldie Cabinet or another. It was founded
on the general opinion of the Cabinet. When the question of Ca-
tholic Emancipation was brought before the House, it should con-
tinue to receive, as it had ever done, his humble support. NV hat-
ever should be the conduct of the Association, or into whatever
hands their cause may fall, his opinions upon the subject would
remain unchanged, and no difference of opinion should prevent him
front affording to the measure his strenuous support.
Mr. CA LCRA FT apologised for obtruding himself upon the
attention of the Ilouse, when others better entitled to its attention
were anxious to express their sentiments. Ile did not recollect that
a question of greater importance had ever been discussed in the
House. It was an attempt to stifle the voice of the Catholics, but
it must be ineffectual. Unless the real friends of the Catholics
spoke out in the Cabinet and in that House, and conceded to the
Latholtesther just rights, they might calculate upon frequent pe.
riodical visitations its the shape of Catholic Associations, Catholic
Conventions, or Catholic Boards. The Right Hun. Gentleman

' (Mr. Wynn) before he sat down, expressed his opinion upon the
indispensible nee .ivy which existed for granting Emancipation to
the Catholics. Whilst that Right Hon. Gentleman continued a
member of the Cabinet, which n.ade it impossible to grant Eman-
eipatien, he must be excused for doubting the Right lion. Gentle-
man's sincerity if he himself had not declared it. (Hear, hear.)
Whilst Gentlemen held place under a Government, so constituted
that it was impossible to grant a concession which was admitted
to be indispensible, he must caution the country against any reliance
' upon the public principles of such men. When they were faithless
upon one question, they could not be trusted upon any ; and again
he would caution the country, and conjure it to reflect, before its
interests were committed to such supporters, of a question which
was acknowledged to be one of vital importance. The Hon. Gen-
tleman was adverse to the Catholic Association, because counter-
Associations might arise from it. Did the Hon. Gentleman consi.
der that the Catholic Association had grown out of those Orange
Associatioes which the same Hon. Gentleman was formerly so for-
ward in denouncing. (Hear, hear.) lie (Mr. C.) and those who
acted with him, would say, Allay the grievances., redress the
wrongs of the Catholics'. and you will make them as peaceable, as
industrious, and as anxious for the preservation of tranquillity as
the Orangemen, or any other affected pretenders to loyalty. Why
did the lion. Gentleman *peak of Governments having put down
Associations in England? Were any individuals connected with As-
sociations in England excluded from • full participation in the
privileges of the Constitution ? They were not : then why insti-
tute a comparison where no analogy existed. lie felt confident that
even though the Association should be put down, there was
no probability of putting down the Catholics. Ile hoped the Ca-
thrums would continue to state their grievances, and press them
upon the House and the Government so long as they could as-
semble in a legal ;end constitutional manner. lie hoped they would
continue to present petitions until they obtained redress. lie never
recollected any official person coming down to the Mum in the
manner which the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. (ioulburn) had
done, when he asked the assistance of the House to restrain the
Catholics from expressing their opinions. Such measures were
usually preceded by given bags, and accounts of secret societies
and unlawful oaths. But what did the Honourable Gentleman
come down to suppress ? An open &celery, to which the public were
freely admitted, and the proceedings of which may be read in any
of the newspapers. This nieasure, 100, was to be carried through
the House at the very moment when Ireland was declased to be in
a state of perfect and unexampled tranquillity. Ile (Mr. C.) did
not think the Catholic Association would roast the measure proposed
by his Majesty's Ministers, but he thought they would anticipate
it. The Catholic Association would fade away and assume some
new form, before the Honourable Gentleman's Bill could cress
the Channel. The Catholics had no idea of resisting my measure
by force. 'file whole tenor of their proceedings demonstrated
the absence of such an intention. It would be frantic if the
Catholics permitted the notion of force to enter their minds. It
was equally absurd for the House or the Government to believe
that it could obstruct the measures of the Catholics ; that any Bill
could prevent the concentration of their numbers:, and the collection
of money to be applied to general purposes. It was in vain to tell
a people, goaded by oppression, that they should not complain.
Did the Ministers remember his Majesty's visit to Ireland ? lie
(Mr. Calcraft) happened to be in Dublin at this memorable period.
The elation, the gratitude, the loyalty of the people, exceeded every
thing he could have imagined. The ardour and enthusiasm of the
Catholics were more conspicuous than that of the Orangemen, and
no doubt they were more sincere in their devotion. Any man who
looked deeper than the surface might have foretold that the cup
which was then presented to the unsuspecting Irish, would, ere
long, be dashed untested from their lips. The King went, hold-
ing in one hand Lord Sidmoutli„ and, in the other hand, the Mar-
quis of Londonderry. " The bane and antidote were both before"
the country : this ins moment told them that the Bill should pass,
and this :veered them that it never could. ‘V hat a mockery was
this to the hopes of a nation ? but, in the joy and elation of the
hour, it was forgotten, and this generous but thoughtless people
hailed with the same feeling of respect, with the same acclama-
tions, Lord Sidmouth, who opposed their emancipation, and Lord
Londonderry, who advised it, and whom he was sorry fur alluding
to under the circumstances. When the Honourable Member who
now presided at the Board of Control, sat at his (Mr. Calcrafee)
side of the House, lie would not have considered the conduct of a I
Cabinet commendable, which admitted a measure to be indispee-
sible, and yet retain their places, without any serious edam to
effect this measure. But passing from one side of the !louse had
effected a considerable change in the Right lion. Gentleman's sen-
timeets ; he now looked indulgently at that which bad formerly
excited his indignation, and concluded, that by voting for
Catholic Emancipation he had done quite enough to tranquillize
Ireland, and prove himself to be an effective Minister of State.
The abjuration which was complained of, viz. " By the hatred
which you bear to Orangemen " was nothing more than a strong
appeal to the feelings of the people to ensure peace and tranquillity;
the invocation merely meant to call upon them by the hatred which
they bore to the oppressors and hypocrites who had plundered them
for 100 years. (Hear, hear). It was an invocation for them not
to join Whiteboysem any other boys. (Laughter.) lie must say
that he felt it his duty to oppose the introduction of this Bill ; not
that he approved of the principle of the Association, but that he
thought that the present plan upon which Ireland was governed,
would produce these Associations. They must apply the true
remedy at once, and rot try these temporary measures which were
mere nostrums day after day. It had been asserted it at the As-
sociation had rendered the Catholic Cause unpopular in England ;
but that he (Mr. Calcraft) must deny, and so far was that from
being the fact that he did not doubt the English people would con-
cur with any government which would undertake to relieve the
Catholics. (Hear, hear.) If the Catholic Claims had been urged
with violence and supported by arms, the spirit of the English
people would have risen against them, and they would have been
dismissed. It had been urged against the Association that they
had collected money, and this collection, he would say, in so poor
a conntry, must aeon cease; but what was the amount of the col-
lection ? He (Mr. Calcraft) then held a paper in his hand by
which it appeared that it did not exceed 9,1*01. Now, let the House
look into the collections made by Bible Societies, Methodist
Societies, and others; not that lie meant to say that these
bodies raised the money unconstitutionally, Or that it was
improperly applied ; but they would find that the sums they col-
lected, doubled, trebled, and even quintupled, those collected by
the Association. Ile could not account for the pretence which was
given for this Bill, after the acknowledgment that Ireland was in a
more peaceable condition than it had been for some time. lie
should like to know with whom the 8111 originated. It had been
said to be the production of the united wisdom of the Cabinet,
which could not always be said of other measures, in which
it was generally the united sense of the Cabinet. lie had heard
that it was an Irish measure which had come across the water,
from the Lord Lieutenant, and been adopted by our Government ;
but he was quite sure the Marquis of Wellesley would not have
sent the proposal of such a measure without offering some alter-
native. The great objection urged against the Association was.
that there was no opposiition ; the Ministers, no doubt, would
feel it was an evil here, for the Opposition, during the Session of
Parliament, served to keep the divided Members of the Cabinet
together. There was a remedy within their reach, and they ought
to apply it, and that remedy was Catholic Emancipation. (Hear,
hear.) He must deny that there existed any alarm in Ireland, ex_
cept that which was nested by the Orangemen, who wished to call
in the aid of the army, which had been for many years their spe-
cific for Irish disease; but he was glad to say, that the Catholics
were near obtaining a firm footing by the acquirement of property,
the extension of eduction, and the increase of members; all'
which, in the course of a few years, would oblige them to apply
the only perfect remedy. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. PLUNKETT rose, and said, this question had been so I
amply discussed that there was oat much to be added to the argu-
ments which had been brought forward ; but he row merely to
express his opinion, and state his view of the measures pursued to-
wards that country, rather than with any. hope of throwing further I
light upoa the question. It was a question which had been said
to implicate the popular privileges of the country ; had been de-
nounced by lion. Members as likely to be attended with cruel con-
seguences to Ireland. Although throughout the debate the Oppo-
sition had rested upon assertion, and not proof, yet he felt even
assertion raised apprehension in his mind for the consequence,.
Ile would now call the attention of the House to the real nature of
the measure. It had been asserted in that Mouse, as merely at- I
tacking the Catholic Association; but it was, in reality, a measure
which attacked all Associations, whether they were instituted for
the purpose of supporting Catholic Emancipation, or of opposing
it. It was not a single measure; it was accompanied by an annun-
ciation from the Throne that the whole question of the state of Ire-
land was to be taken into consideration. The Catholic Association
Was merely a branch of this great question, and was, he admitted,
merely a symptom of the evil they were to re:wetly. Whatever
might have been the motives which had induced Lord Wellesley to
wish for this measure, they could not have any objection to it, ae-
companied as it was by the annunciation contained in the Speech
from the Throne. It had been truly said by the Hon. Gentteman
who had just sat down (Mr. Calcraft), that Ireland had been ad-
mitted to be in • state of tranquillity ; and the Hon. Gentiansn
had stated himself to be Lea loss to mink why this Measure of dis.
sord and hostility should be brought forward. Ireland certainly was in
• state of prosperity, and the cause had been laid before the House ;
for she bad shared in the causes which had produced the prosperity of
the whole empire. and by the judicious administration of that
country by the Marquis of Wellesley, confidence had been restored
and invigorates) : that Noble Lord had found Ireland almost in a
state of rebellion ; but he had now restored it to peace and tran-
quillity ; he had found her a wreck, but by his judicious guidance
he had redeemed her from the perilous situation in which she was
plated, and so righted her, that she was row able to float in the
strain of public prosperity. (Cheers.) lie could not agree with
the lion. Member for Wiochilsea (Mr. Brougham), that the
Catholic Association was the cause of the peace and quietness. A
remark had been made by the lion. Member for Galway (Mr.
Marin) which led to the conclusion that since the Catholic Asso-
ciation could put down insurrections, end establish quiet in the
country, they ;twat also have the power of' raising them again—
" L:no avulso non deficit alter.

persons who hare the power to all ay, must have the power to disturb;
but long before the Catholic Association intermeddled the tranquil-
lity of the cot.nt•y had been completely established. The people
who were the most effecuml asaistanta in it were the Roman Catholic
priests of Ireland, in conjunction with the country gentlemen.
(Hear, hear.) It was not the Catholic Association that was the
iristruinect, although they now arrogated it to themselves ; it was
the Roman Catholic priests who had preached the doctrine of
loyalty and peace. and not the Association. (Hear, hear.) Thi■
lie said in justice to that most calumniated set of men. (Continued
cheering.) The answer to the question, why the misery was pro-
duced, was, that he tad not remember the period when there was so
great a political excitation existing) in that country, and when there
was such abundance of elements for the danger which was appre-

beaded. Corsidetable alarm had been raised in the minds of the
inhabitants of Ireland, which had been exaggerated by d
persons for dishonest purposes. The Hon. Member for
ampton ( Mr. Maherly) had said. that he had lately seen the
lice in Ireland more full of hope than at any period he remem
or had heard of, aid asked whether this was not the greatest rheas
for granting the lineation, for who could answer for the come-
quencee of disappointing that hope ? Brit was it to be said, be-
eau se they cot.lil not grant the Question of Catholic Emancipation.
that they were not to make a provision against the consequet cm of
the refusal. Ile would remind the House of the nature of the
Association ; it was formed upon different principles from all
others ; a set of gentlemen had formed themselves into a society to
remedy all grievances whatever, whether of a local or general
nature, that affected the people of Ireland. They take under their
consideration every department of business belonging to Govern-
ment ; they had undertaken the subjects of Parliamentary Reform,
the question of tithes, the regulation or church property, and of
the adniinietratinn of justice, not merely of •he general form ; but
they had established an inquisition, which extended from the
highest court of judicature down to the lowest petty court of con-
science, and had extended their interference to the adjudication of
all causes in which the Catholic population had an interest. lie
(Mr. Plunk:it) hoped that this was enough for a set of men to
undertake. Ile would now advert to the mode in which it was
done. They had associated the Roman Catholic clergy and also
the nobility of that persuasion, besides the remnant of the dole.
gates of 1793. They had formed Committees, who had extended
the influence of the Association nearly into every corner of the
Wand ; by these titans this society, which at first was only corn.
posed of twenty individuals, now reckoned three thousand. (Hear,
hear.) Ile trusted that the recital he had given of their ob-
jects presented a case strong enough to show that it was illegal.
They have stated Ireland to contain 2.500 parishes; they have de.
termined that to each of these 2.500 parishes should be appointed
twelve collector of this Roman Catholic Rent, and that those col-
lectors should be assisted in their exertions by the Roman ( atholic
priests. According to this calculation, the collectors alone would
make an army of 30,000, unarmed he would admit—unarmed by
any thing except prayers and entreaties; but he would ask, were
not this bpdy of 30,000 collectors, assisted as they were by 2.500
priests in going through the country levying contributions upon the
people, which contributions were to be appropriated to the purposes •
he had mentioned, acting in direct violation of the principles of
the Constitution ? He would not say they were acting
because if such were the case they would have been prosecuted by
the law, and if so it would not have been necessary to come before
the House of Commons in order to check their progress. But in
calling upon Parliament to legislate for this object, Parliament was
called to legislate according to the spirit of the Constitution. He
would say, in the hearing of all persons present, but with deference
to their situation and to his own, that such representative as-
semblies were altogether opposed to the nature and spirit of the
Constitution. He hoped he should not be misunderstood; he did
not mean to deny the privilege of persons to mumble—he did not
mean to deny that they had a right to endeavour to increase their
numbers through the medium of clubs and meetings—certainly
not; but lie did mean to deny that any persons in this realm were
justified in deputing other persons to communicate their reasonings
and their opinions to the people. and to make their reports to them.
fie would say that wherever this was done it was an encroachment
on the Constitution—ass encroachment on the privileges of the
House of Parliament. and directly opposed to the spirit of the
Constitution. He did not wish to argue this question like a school-
man, and he would not say that they had merely done wrong, in
prosecuting their plans, but he would say that if there were any
body of men such as that which now existed in Ireland, and were
&aiming to themselves the exercise of the right to represent the
people of Ireland—to represent six millions of people—that body
would be inconsistent with the policy of any state. The assembly
the House was new called upon to consider was not only direely
violating the principles of the Constitution, but wee daringly de.
fying the State, in thus arraying the people. But it was not the
amount of the Roman Catholic Rent, although that was enormous,
of which he complained ; it was that the Roman Catholic Aseoci.
ation endeavoured so to lead away every individual in the country,
as to enable themselves to say we are the only fit arid proper persona
to represent the country ; it is we who wield the physical force of the
State. This was estate of things which no rebored person could endunt
—for if such were allowed to exist, the Government of the country
must be abdicating its rights, and would be altogether abandoning
the interests of the people. An Hon. Member had said—" Let the
Association alone, and it will fall to nothing; it will of itself die
away, and the people will in time cease to contribute that rent which
they can so ill afford to pay." But was his Hon. Friend serious,
in making this observation, or in treating so lightly a question of'
such magnitude? Could the Government of the country answer
to the public, it' they left such a mass of physical force to he
drawn out and strayed, without taking any notice of it ? If the
beet men that had ever lived had come forward to wield the phy.
anal force of the State, he (Mr. Plunkett) would not consent that
the Government of the country should put the power of so dodog
into their hands, unless they were under that control under which
every person ought to be, and under which every person Is to whom
any such responsibility is attached. Butt the persons who boast
that they can bring forward a whole people at their beck, who shall
stop them in their proceedings ? 1l ho shall have the power to re.
dress any wrongs they may commit—by whom shall they be tried,
or to whom shall they become answerable ? If the Government
thought proper to bring forward the whole physical force of the
country, the country itself would direct how it should be done ;
this Catholic Association unites in itself the legislative and the
executive. In our mixed Constitution, our popular Constitu.
tion, which was so regarded because it was so deserving of re.
Bard, it was thought better not to permit any ouch power; but
although the powers of Parliament were vary great, what would
they be If they had the power of sammnning themselves at will, of
acting as they pleased, and of dismissing themselves at pleasure?
What other power would then exist? Would not the Parliament
become omnipotent, and would not every other power be swallowed
up is the Commons of England ? Vet these persons, this Catholic
Association, met when they liked and where they liked—acted just
as they pleased, and held a sway over the people of Ireland. as un-
limited as that of any Monarch over any state. He would inform
those Honourable Members who knew but little of what was passing
In Ireland, that a powerful despotism,—more powerful than that
of the sword or of any law,—was exercised by this Catholic Am°.
elation, over the minds of the people of that country. They were
going into every House, and into every family, with a total want
even of decorum and respect, while it required no ordinaty degree
of courage to face them. Their numbers had been thus in.
creased by a set of unwilling conactipts, and had swelled to
the amount of three thousand actually assembled, embrac.
ing within their limits persons of high rank and consequence in
Ireland. There was only one topic more on this subject, to
which he would revert, and that had been so ably touched upon by
the Right Honourable the Secretary for the Houle Depertment, as
to render it only necessary for him to say a few words. It sespeoed
the adtninistration of justice ; and he could not conceive any !Fetal%
so opposed to the administration of justice ash the system on which
he hsd been commenting. Who are those who claim to represent
the people of Ireland ?—and whom do they claim to represent
why no leas than six millions of the community. In their claim GI
so representing the people of Ireland, they arrogate to themselves
the right of denouncing, in the name of' the people of Ireland, all
persons against whom they have any animosity ; and of bringing
to the Dar of justice all those who may have been concerned in any
illegal acts that are calculated to offend the people. Is there any
person, lie would ask, who, under these circimstancea, could go to
trial with a fair hope of justice, when such a powerful body was
arrayed against him, supported as they were by talent, and backed
by the money that had been collected from the people of
Ireland? It would certainly end in this—that the Jury who were
to try such a person would feel awed and abashed in the presence
of this body, or that they would, on the contrary, feel irritated
and vexed at their proceedings., and array themselves against
them, Ile (Mr. Plunkett) did not know which case wou'.t
be the most lamentable. The courts of justice would, there.
fore, become arenas in which the angry passions would be
whetted, instead of being places where justice should be equally
administered between man and man. Under tins state of
things, Lord \Wellesley was forced to submit himself to the
heavy imputation that he did not think it proper to let the Catholic
Association expire of itself, but called upon the Government of '
the country to assist in putting it down. One word more as to the '
Association. Was it to be supposed that, formed as it was of
Roman Catholics, it would be tolerated by the Protestants ? Of
what materials were the Protestants conceived to be composed, if'
it were expected that they could remain for any long ecriod quiet
spectators of this array ? Would they not also form themselves
into some Protestant eweetiation, and so act as so be prepared to
resist any attempts that might be made to harms them? He
would admit that it was not at present the intention of the
Roman Catholics to proceed to any violence; he was sure that
they were tranquil as well in intention as in act. This was
his perfect persuasion, but they might be placed in such a
situation as not to be able to follow their own determination.
a situation where they must .of necessity tie at the behest of those
who were their leaders. He would not say that there was arty in.
mntion of violence even on the part of those leaders.—it was his
belief that such was not the case ; but they, too, might be placed
under such circumstances, as not to be their own m isters. If any
desperate man were to conic forward, he might take the lead, and
those persons might then tie like those who stood upon the brink
of a precipice, and who were pushed forward to thew ruin by the
crowd behind them. This was not an exaggerated picture. He re-
menibered what had been done in consequence of the election of
2.000 persons, who did not conic forward because of the Insurrec-
tion Act ; which Act, he would observe, was framed by one
of the best men that Ireland ever saw,—Lord Kilwarden,—
who was equally an honest man and a sound lawyer, and
who sealed his principles by his death ; for his last words,
when he was massacred, in 1804, were, that no man should be
prosecuted for his murder. except in strict conformity to the law.
That act, however, only provided against delegations; but when, in.
stead of Committees, aggregate meeting.' of the people were called,
professing to act in the name and on the behalf of the people, how
necessary was it that some means should he resorted to, to provide a
remedy for a growing evil. But it was menial that Parliament
ought not to apply thus remedy, because there was another way--
by granting the question of Catholic Emancipation. He would
take the opportunity of stating his feeling on this subject ; he
would state it to be now as it had always been. He considered the
measure as one without which every other in Ireland must be inef-
fectual. (Hear, hear.) lie thought it a matter of right and of
justice, and that it would baffle human ingenuity to find a single
argument against it; he deeply deprecated the deferring it fir a
single moment, and he thought the longer it was deterred, the
more difficult it would be to avoid granting it. Early in life he
had seen and felt the necessity and importance of it, and as he ad-
vanced in life. he became more and more convinced, not only of
the policy, but of the urgency of the measure. This sentiment

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