The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1826-04-15 00:00:00

CATHOLIC PETITION.

Mr. J. SMITH, in rising to presznt a petition to the House
from the Catholics of Ireland. relative to the education of the
children of the poorer classes in that country, was anxious to say a
few words upon the prayer of that petition. It was a ',object than
which none called so urgently for their immediate auentton. He
believed the petition contained tho sentiments of the entire body of
the Catholics of Irelaral, and it was signed by 'leveret thousand
names. Under these circumstances, he hoped that the House
would excuse him if he entered atomewhat into detail. The ye-
titiohers complained that the education of their poor was not at-
tended to ; that prior to the Reformation the lands of the clergy
were in port devoted to that purpose; but that since then some were
educated by the contributions of the Catholics, and by far the
greater portion were not educated at all. Ile could not agree with
the pedtionerr in the expression of their dissatisfaction at the pro-
ceedings of the Commissioners for Educating the Poor in Ireland;
because he thought it premature as yet to form any opinion at all
of the labours of that body. The petitioners hail consulted the
authorities or their Church as to the propriety of educating
Catholic and Protestant children together; to which It appeared
there was no objection, provided that a Catholic master wan ern-
plotted when the majority of the children were Catholics, and that
a Protestant master was engaged where the Protestant children
were more numerous. They however objected to having any books
forced upon the children—they ohjected to having any books
placed in the hands of Catholic children but such as were approved
of by the Catholic Bishops. Further, they complained that the
House of Commons had granted some of money to certain Societies
whose object was not to educate, but to make proselytes.
of the Irish people. Amongst the other obligations which that
House was tinder to the Commission which he had already alluded
to, he thought it owed to them at lean a full inquiry into that fact.
For his own part, he had no hesitation in stating hie belief that
there were bodies in existence, whose principal object was
that stated by the petitioners. (Hear, hear.). Ile would also
say, on the behalf of the petitioners. that nothing could be
',noire Mame,* nothing tube more unjust or cruel, than la oblige.
those children to read books which were directly opposed to the
tenets of their religion. It might be a matter to be deplored that
prejudices should be so strongly rooted, but he was prepared to
contend, that their being so unfortunate as to labour under such
prejudices, was no reason why Government should refuse to assist
in educating their children according to their wishes. (Hear.) In
other countries a more liberal system cans adopted. He had himself
an opportunity of knowing what had taken place in France, where
the Protestants had been heretofore discouraged in all manner of
ways—where the syatem of intolerance had gone to such a length
that the Protestant children hod been even turned out of their
schools. Yet nit long ago Louis XVIII. had actually directed that
Jewish children should not be compelled to receive any books but
such as had been approved by the Consistory and by the Rabhis.
(Hear, hear.). According to every principle of common sense and •
modera ion, it appeared to him that the Catholics should not he
compelled to rend the acripture, if they did not like. It was well
known to every Member of that House that there were societies in
existence which had undertaken to convert the inhabitants of the
east and of the west, and, in fact; of all parts °Hie world. Now it
was well worth the attention of the House to consider the manner
in which these 111insionary Societies proceeded in their elforu to
attain the objects for which they had combined their exertion..
They began by introducing amongst the ignorant the arts of civi-
liratuon ; they taught them to raise corn, anti to eomerticate
animals, and thus having gained their contidence„ they laid the
foundation upon which to raise the temple of religion. (Hear, heat.)
In Ireland the mode of proceeding was altogether different, and it
was unforttinate for the Protestant interest that all causes conspired
to injure it in the estimation of the Catholics. The Honourable
Member next adverted to the examination of Captain Gordon before
the Committee of Education, who was asked it' the object of the
society of which he was a member, was not to proselytize the
Catholics of Ireland ? Ile answered in the negative. Their object
was only to teach them veritable Christianity. When asked if he
thought Catholicism • veritable Christianity ?' he replied that he did
not, on the contrary he thought that nothing could be further from it.
The fact was, that he agreed with the petitioners, that the House
ought not to grant a single shilling of the public money to any of
these Societies, unless, indeed, it had really in view the intention
of proselytizing the people of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) With respect
to mixing the children of Protestams and Catholics, the petitioners
objt.cted to it, unless on their own specified terms. They torus

Plained of the conduct of some Societies, without naming them
which he rather regretted, as it deprived him of the opportunity of
wore closely allnding to them. The petitioners prayed fin. a sup-
ply from that House, for the purpose of educating the children of
Leland on the principle laid down by the Catholic Bishops ; or
otherwise, that a supply be granted for the purposes of education,
and apportioned in such share to the differem rtligious persuasions,
as to their Honourable House might seem proper. He wished to
call the attention of the House to the fact, that all those persons
who were natives of the sister kingdom, mid who had died for their
crimes in this country by the hands of the common executioner,
were persona wholly without education, and wrapped In the most
deplorable state of ignorance. The greatest protection against
crime was a knowledge of a future state, and this, at all events,
they were bound to extend to the peasantry of Ireland. At an
early period of the history of this country the introduction of' edu-
cation was owing to Irish interference. The first light of the
Gospel which broke upon the ignorance of our ancestors shed its
influence from Inland (hear, hear); end in common gratitude
they were hound to confer a, similar obligation. He wished most
earnestly to recommend the petition to the consideration of the
House. and most particularly to the attention of the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Gotilbum).
The petition was then brought up. Upon the motion that it be
printed,
Mr. BUTTERWORTH rose and said, that the same principle
which would justify the House in conceding the prayer of the pelf-
lion, would apply with equal force if the petition had emanated
from the disciples of" Thomas Paine. The !louse of Commons was
not authorised to grant sums of money for the purpose of educating
the inhabitan • of Ireland in doctrines opposed to those of the Holy
Scriptures. If it hail not been fur the priests, the education of the
people of that country would have been then rapidly proceeding in
knowledge. The petitioners talked of being compelled to read the
Scriptures, but there was no compulsion in the case—they were
merely told that, if their children went to the school, they must
submit to read the Scriptures. lie was not then to be told that the
Catholics of Ireland were in want of money fur the purposes of
education, ter it was notorious that they had Leen able to raise no
less than 1,0001. pee week for seditious purposes, by mean, of the
Catholic Association. Surely, then, they could easily raise a suf-
ficient sum for the purposes of charity. if the Hotise dre* a com-
parison between the state of morals in Ireland and in Scotland, they
would find that in the latter they were infinitely purer, because the
Scriptures were made the basis of education, and by them only
could good order be maintained. The petitioners hail no tight to
complain, nor had they any right to receive money from the State
for the purpose of educating their children in principles directly
opposed to those established by the State itself. He, for sane,
wished that those Societies which had been alluded to would avow
their wish to make proselytes : for his own part, he would not deny
tilta such was his wish. (Hear, hear.) lie wished to reclaim the
people of Ireland from a state of immorality, and to make Bible
Chnstians of them.

Mr. W. SMITH said he believed that no person hi that House,
or even in the country, was further removed from tht principles of
Catholicism than he was himself—he scarcely agreed with them in
any one solitary point; but he thought it better for the state rot to
outstrip its own province, but to leave persons to theirown reli.
gious opinions, and interfere only with their actions. He did rot
think the murals of the inhabitants of this country were so touch
superior to those of the inhabitants Of Catholic states. as perilous in
that House were apt to suppose. At all events he would say, let
sonic sort of education prevail; and he would much rather have
them educated in the Catholic religion than that they should cur.
tinue in a state of ignorance. It was a horrible disgrace to the
people of England that Ireland should be in such a lamentable
state of ignorance, after having been no less than six centuries
under her control and management,
Mr. C. WILSON said that it was the duty of that House to do
all that it could towards promoting the education of the people ut
Ireland, and if it was in their power to give no other education than
a Catholic one, he would at once say, that it was better
to give them that than leave them in a stale of ignorance.
He was glad the lion. Member had admitted that he had no re-
pugnance to mixed schools. The priests were opposed to the intro-
duction orate scriptures into those schools,which he considered most
objectionable. The main point for consideration was, whether the
scriptures should be allowed in tie schools or not. Ile thought
they were a necessary adjunct of education, and he would give his
decided opposition to any plan of education which excluded the
holy scriptures. He could not conceive any rational objection to
such en arrangement. The children might read the scriptures in the
schools, and might afterwanls receive the particular interpretation
of them from their parents, or from the priest. He would not detain
the House with any further observations than to express his oppo-
sition against the measure propmed.
Mr. G. BANKES said he wished to afford means to the Roman
Catholics to judge for themsels ea, and for that reason he was anxi-
ous to introduce the scriptures into those schools. He understood the
Hon. Member for Dover (Mr. Butterworth) to have said that the
ruin of France was to be attributed to the superstition of her in.
habitant% which he also thought injurious to that country. The
unfortunate state of Ireland was entirely owing to the conduct of
the priests; the shameful ignorance of the people was a disgrace to
' them. It was objected to the schools of this country that they d:d
not pay sufficient attention to the religious instruction of the
pupils, He did not think the charge well founded. He could bcar
testimuny to the strict attention which was paid to the eel gious
and moral iqtruction of those educated. In his opinion all edu-
cation might to be bailt on the basis of the Bible, and therefore he
could nut concur In any measure which would exclude it.
Colonel TRENCH said no man was more anxious thin he was
to promote diffusion of education. From his connexion With Ire-
land he knew there was a strong disposition in the Irish to obtain
education ;- there was a strong appetite for instruction, and if they
did not give wholesome and salutary food, it was to be feared they
would seek that which wan pernicious. The great impediment in
Ireland to the education of the population proceeded from the
priests and enthusiasts. The opposition of the priests to the diffu-
sion of the holy scriptures would be fruitless. There-was now too
strong a desire among the Irish to become acquainted with the
scriptures,, for any opposition to have the least effect. He had
seen a school, consisting of two hundred Roman Catholics, which
was conducted by a Roman Catholiclady, in which the scriptures
were rend. The objectionable parts were marked,and inconsequence
no objection was made to the use of them in that school. But for
the inthsminatmy pro:eedings of that society which has been agi-
tating the people of Ireland, Protestants and Catholics would have
tnet on neutral ground, and come to an amicable arrangement on
this point; he confessed the subject was one whit which he was not
very conversant, and was therefore reluctant to disco's; the question
when he was actuated by great zeal and little information.
Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD said he was surprised the
Ron. Member fur Dover should have taken occasion of the pre-
sentation of that petition to pour out his rancour against the Ito.
man Catholic population of Ireland. There was nothing in the
petition to warrant such an attack. The priests were not the ob-
jectionable persons. The evils complained of were to be attributed
to a meddling set of sectarians, who in the name of Protestants
have spread themselves over the wintry, and excited ran-
corous feelings. The Roman Catholics complain that there
are persons who make the introduction of the scriptures
a means to subvert the ancient faith. The Catholics do not oppose
the reading of the Scriptures ; their opposition is only applied to
the diffusion of them without note or comment. in that they were
not singular. The same principle was adopted by many dignita-
ries of the Protestant Church, who were averse to the distribution
of the Scriptures without the Church Catechism. The parallel
drawn between the Catholic Clergy and the National Clergy of
Scotland did not hold good. In Scotland the National Clergy were
endowed; it became the established church, and possessed means
to assist in the education of the people. The property of the Ca-
tholic Clergy of Ireland had been repeatedly forfeited, and they
were consequently destitute of the means of affording education
to their flocks. It was not fair, under such circumstances, to look
to tnen to afford education to the people of Ireland, who did not
possess the means, and who, until within a short period, were
themselves excluded by law from attaining it. Fhey had no reve-
nues, but out of their scanty means they had done more towards the
education the people of Ireland than had been effected from the
funds afforded for that purpose by the exuberant liberality of this
country. He could assure the House, that it' the Roman Catholics
were to be converted, it was not by those angry zealots who were
equally disposed to destroy Popery and overtutn the Protestant
Episcopal Church. Ile did not know but their hatred to Popery
arose from their regard for Epiacopacy, as their regard for the
Church proceeded from their hatred to Popery.
1U;. WILLIAM SMITH said that the petition only asked
what every nian was entitlettno—a right to place whstever4ooks of
instruction he thought lit in the hands of children who looked up
to him for instruction.

Mr. BUTTERWORTH disclaimed the assertion d? those per-
sons being sectarians who were alluded to ; they were members of
the Church of England. Those personal allusions were what ha
expected. The priests of Ireland were quiet while the Protestant
Clergy of Ireland were supine, and suffered the people to remain
in ignorance ; ignorance was quite congenial to their ideas ; but
when the l'rotestant Clergy were roused from their lethargy and
sought to enlighten the people,then the Priests took the alarm, and
threw every opimsition in their way. If the Hibernian School So.
c'ety was that which was alluded to, there were 2Jembers in the
House who should come forward to speak in explanation. As they
did not, Ile would, and would infothi the House that the members
of that Society were of the Church of England. In one of the
discussions which had taken place in Ireland, the people were
trained by the Priests; they were organised to give opposition.
The Priests had a signal, which was understood by the people,
who, on that signal being given by the Priests, rushed to the plat.
farm and interrupted the proceedings. (Cries of " No, no.") He
complained of the acrimonious terms in which he had been replied
to. Walt regard to what the Honourable Member (Mr. J. Smith)
had said relative to episcopacy, lie should call on the Honourable
Member for Norwich to answer that.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said the case alluded to by the Hon.
Member, relative to the organized opposition of the CathoM
had been contradicted by Colonel Rodifort (who presided at the
meeting alluded to), in his evidence before the Committee of Edu-
cation of that House. The Catholic Clergy refuse to put the Bible
into the hands of children without a commentary. Seven thousand
children were educated by the unaided efforts of the Cwholic
Clergy.
On the motion that the petition be printed,
Mr. J. SMITH said he had a question to ask an Hon. Member
opposite (Mr. W. Horton), but before he put the question he would
call his attention to a statement which appeared in the Siducy Cu-
zettr, being an assertion that the Grand Jury had round
that torture had been inflicted to extort information from a person
accused of some crime. He was to receive twenty-five lashes every
morning until he should afford the Information sought Mr. It ap.
peered that the punishment had been inflicted five days sneers..
iiv:ly ; ou the sixth day the punishment was kflictsd, and he was

then banished. He wished to know if the Magistrate who sigced the order held any official situation in the Colon
the amount of his salary. y, and shat was
Mr. W. HORTON said that the punishment had been irffieted
according to the custom of the Colony. He did not mean to joitit, such cotaluct, hut he would merely slate that the individual question hail ordered the punishment in c.smpliance with the inv. nee of the place. He held the situation of Clerk of the Council.
Mr. BRIGHT wished to know if the Act which authorized such
proceedings could be produced.
soon
M
r.
as it W. MORTON said that the Act should be produced ywareceied.
Mr..l. SMITH said he also understood that an Act of indent,
nit had been passed. He wished to know if such was the fact.
Jr. W. HORTON said, such was the fret.
Mr. BRIGHT repeated his former question, to which
befoMr. W. HORTON gave the same answer as he had sires
re.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice of a
motion for Monday nest, relative (as we understood) to the purish_
went of certain offenders.

ter
TAh
me r
al Am No
rIK Bill, CHANCELLOR
iII,AO
then
oEr Rim
ot
wet h
eA
EXCHEQUERtmi tthtiNpi,
erhaven!dleave
that the House resolve itself into a Committee on the Dank
o
• Chair,
31r. H. GURNEY said that he understood that there was a p
miss that the Bill before the House would hare put the hat litre: system of the country on a firm foundation. The Hooout
Member then proceeded to describe the ridiculous nature
some of the joint-stock companies which had been fornieda-
leferred to one, the solicitors of which resided in Fore.etreet, e
had forwarded circulars to the Members of Parliament and his %it
jesty's Ministers, reqiiesting them to Lemma nominal Direct • ei
their Bank. and each share was to amount. to only 21. Some rel
-
Members of the House, he believed, had allowed
Hewestherncitattes
taken in by the advertisement which had appeared. el,
• joint-stock company being formed three or four years ago tr
object of which was the prosecution of apple-women. The Di-
rectors
were to consist of Ministers, half Dissenters and half of tb
Established Church, and the women were to be fined and d etc
property confiscated. The Hem. ligmber proceeded essay, if ;he
small notes were to be made payable in London, the cocntry would
be itwodared with a sort of paper which, above all other.. was a
nuisance. If notes were not made payable at the Banks from•
which they were issued, great difficulty would be experienced id
getting them paid. The Bank of England mood firmly, he knew,
on the words of their charter ; but. he thought heir jealousy was
groundless and silly in the extreme. He was of opinion that if the
House approved (tithe clauses of this fill, its principle ought to be
carried fur her; and if they sere not prepared to do ad.
they
had better forsake it in two.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee, and the first
clause of the Act having been read. making it lawful for more than
six individuals to form banking companies at a distance of Wallies
from Lrodon.,
Mr. PEARSE ma', but the low tone of voice in which the lion.
Gentleman spoke, prevented us from hearing non.
The Chairman (Mr. BROGDEN) begged .0 rendn I the li use
that in any observations 31embers might make, they should contiae
theinselvee to the particular clause before them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the a hoie
gist of the Hon. the Bank Director's observations who had just
..,,oken, was the impolicy of allowing of any batiks but the Bank
f England. He said that private Banks were so improvident, that
n thing hut evil could result from allowing the expiration, or err)
modification, of thejliank Charter. He could moo entertain that
view of the subject. With every disposition to entertain tle sag.
gestions of that body, he could not think this country likely to be
placed in jeopardy because the House modified the existittg charter,
and placed the system of banking on a more extended scale than
the law et present permuted. He did not feel himself called upon
to argue the principles of the Bill now, the discussions which had
• taken place in its former stages having decidedly expressed
the opinion of the House. The Honourable Gentleman art-
mitteil that the grounds on which Government had argued were
such as had induced the Bank to waive part of their rights, and it
looked like a contradiction, therefore, when he new contended
that the only gond system was that at this moment prevailing. lie
had before said he would not go into any long argument ; but he
would observe, the extent of the business, and the total inapplica-
bility of the Bank to carry on all the concerns of the country, were
sufficient reasons for the present measure. Admitting that the
Bank was unequal to these necessities, the question thee was she-
ther or not it was desirable, h 1 an infraction of the Bank Chaster,
to allow of the establishing of banks with more than six partner..
What magic there could be in this number, and why it should be
objected to, he could not imagine. An Honourable Getitleman
(Mr. H. Gurney) had said one of the object,ona was the nature of
the joint-stock companies which would he formed ; and he instanced
one as a specimen, proposing a million of capital to be raised on 24.
a share. He had received one of those circular letters referred to,
which very politely invited him to become a director, though hem
to be a sort of uominal director, with no duties to perform ; and in
that respect, perhaps, if in no other, it would suit him. (Laughter.)
This might be an absurd scheme, and would not, he dared say, be
carried into effect; but the endeavours to establish these sort of
Companies were no reasons why they should not give facilities to
others. In reference to the limitations proposed, be would observe,
if the Bank had given up some greater privileges, Government
might have dealt with the matter differently. lie would confess he
should have been glad if the Bank bad made more extensive eon-
cessions, that he might have bceu enabled to have rendered the Bill
before the House more perfect, and have placed the system gene-
rally on a basis of greater security.
Mr. LESTER made a few observations that were inaudib:e.
Mr. MONCK thought a system subject to the restrictions pro.
potted, instead of conferring any benefit, would be found an incon-
venience, amounting to a nuisance. A paper currency should
represent a metallic currency. Its great utility was derived from
its universality, but notes under this system smithd he absaltudy
local. If the notes got out of the juristlic inn of th • B irk the prior
would be subject to great inconvenience. He believed they mere fre-
quently put to the expense of paying a carrier two shillings or
half-a-crown, to get their notes paid. It was on this principle
that the local tokens were, and very properly, withdrawn front ctr-
ulation. Under these citeumstanees he thought it bettor ern pato
pone the Bill altogether until the expiration of the Bank Chaney,
which would &Nal them the opportunity of introducing a system
without the liathations which e cumbered this.
Mr. S. RICE made a tew observations, as we understood, in
opposition to the Bill ; after which
31r. PEARCE explained.
3lr. J. P. GRANT said the Bank had to make the beat bargain
it could. The Hon. Gentleman proceeded in so low a tone of
voice, that we were unable to catch his observations. There
was a clause in the proposed Bill, which lie did not perfectly un-
derstand. If its purport was that there should not be a corres-
pondent or agent its London, who might tranaact the town bu.iness
of his partners in the country, the clause would be then intelli-
gible, however unsatisfactory. If that was not the meaning, he did
not know what other to affix to it. Ile did not, however, agree in
the propriety of adopting that clause with the construction which be
had assigned, as he conceived it to be pregnant with great incoive.
nience. It was a clause for preventing country bankers front Lem-
ing any hills for a less sum than BIL, payable in London. He
thought the object of that datum was to prohibit the circulation of
country paper in the Metropolis, but the attainment of that end
would be fraught with real inconvenience to many parties. For in-
stance, the country banker, in his private capacity, Mght bare
occasion to draw on London for a sum plea. or 481.. and the opts
ration of the clause would necessarily debar him. There was an-
other clause which allowed the branch banks of the Bark of Eng.
land to sue and be sued by their manager. Now that exception
made them differ from all other partnerships, which could not by
law sue and be ailed in a similar way. If the principle, howciev,
was deemed good in its operation in all other kinds of patine:ship,
it seemed anomalous not to extend its application to the present
instance ; for banking paunert-ition were deemed ro be those of the
greatest importance to the public. The discrepancy seemed very
ambiguous. lie thought that the abolition of the exclusive mono.
poly attaching to the Bank of England would not cause any detri-
ment to that establishment, anti would be attended with great bents
fit to the country. •
Mr. T. ‘VILSON did not think that the clauses intendtd to be
annexed to the Bill for the purpose of protecting the Bank of Eng-
land, were of the objectionable nature alleged. The necessity and
utility of that establishment tette lately rendered obvious during
the failures of the country banks, when it afforded that relief which'
proved of essential servirs• an this gammons/atty. and tended to mum
that degree of confidence which was so desirable, and had come!
quently returned. By the system connected with the Bank of
England, gold was kept in the country to counterbalance the
river-issues of a paper currency, and to remedy the evils which
thence resul,ed.
Several clauses were then put, and after some colloquial observe.
thous. in which Mr. Bright, the Attorney-General. Mr. flume,
Hudson (limey, Mr. Pearce, Sir Henry Anne!, and air
J.
Wmttesley joined, were agreed to.
A clause, of which we could not bear the exact purport, was thin
proposed, when—
31r. H. GURNEY, as we understood, asked whether it was In•
tended that country bankers should be allowed, or not, to have a
correspondent in London for the marposeof discounting'
jawTthheeyAee'le"tl'atan)
them, to have an agent in London toe the purpose of discou,ing).
Is
For instance, if there was a banking establishment canslslingo°'.
certainly were NenEtilLdt ngoairdwatshatit Bnm:et:rid:nit permit
tothler
more than six partners at Norwich, they could not act in the n_ieet
net to which the question of the Hon. Member applied. T
matter, however, had been already disposed of by a preceding
clause which hal hero agreed to.
illr.
zil HUDSON thought
eollttniltluNittiee:Vwuum
not )ibfespurcoldt
u were
and would, in fact, only tend to circulate the monopoly more es
tensively throughout the country.
Mr. DEN MAN PAW that the answer given by the Bon. and
Learned Gent, was correct, the Bill would be perfectly nugatory.
It would be better that the Bill should be altogether thrown to t.
.
and he hoped the result would move such to be the sentiment
the House.
ctive thecae,
env the I ,
gad.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the
question had been already disposed of, and was totally irrelevant to
the consideration of the clause under discussion.
Mr. P. RENFELL thought that the present Rill would not
answer the intended object, and that it would be better to get rid of
it altogether.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL. said that, under the niann.g.
laws, the London agents of joint-stock banking companies could
not discount bills. .

-- ----- -•••-•
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