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those individuals with whom he lived in the daily interchange of
kindness. ll'hatever reason there was for the increase of salary to
the Judges of the King's Bench, those of the Common Pleas he
thought had no right whatever to expect it. In general they went into
their Court between 1U and 11 in the morning, and left it between 11
andl2. Ile thmight it not right that Parliament should every year be
increasing the salaries ofJudges; hedislike I the principle altogether.
They had been told it was necessary, if they wished the eminent
men of the Bar to accept the dignified situation of a Judge, that
they should hold nut an inducement of higher reward than that
which such a situation already offered. Now he had never heard
that there was any deficiency of leading men at the Bar, who would
be willing to accept the situation of a Puisne Judge with its pre-
sent advantages. He had never heard of any one man who refused
to retire to such a station on account of the superior profits and ad-
vantages of his business at the Bar. For the truth was, that
Judges were not alone paid by the 4.0001., or whatever it was
which they received as a salary—they were paid by the dignity of
their station—by its ease—by its rank and honours. They were
paid by being relieved from all the fluctuations of fortune—from all
the anxieties and cares which injure the constitution and destroy
the health, and by being placed in the enjoyment of a handsome
pension and comparative leisure for the remainder of their life. It
was not in the enjoyment of that leisure that it sou to be supposed
ther were to acquire the wherewithal to support their station with
dignity : during their early days--during that time when they had
been earning the character and the rank which finally marked them
as men fit for the situation they were called to adorn, they amassed
enough of fortune to enable them to retire to the Bench with the
means of upholding its dignity apart from any sinister motives.
Remove, he would say, all pretence for their being charged with
such motives--remove all motives which could lead them to en-
tertain hope of advancement or fear of being neglected—let it not
be understood that one station is to be made the necessary pas.
sage to another—remove all the mischief and wickedness attend-
ant upon any sacrifice of judicial integrity to gain favour with the
Crown, and let it not be understood that by increasing their de-
pendence upon Government they give them additional means of
supporting their dignity of chancier. No complaint, as far as he
bad heard--certainly the Right Honourable Gentleman did not say
there had not been any—no complaint had been made of want—
none of being under-paid. The expense of the third Andra, the
only good ground whictqcould be advanced for such an increase, had
been paid to them, voted to them by that House, and yet all of
a sudden they were called upon to give these Puisne Judges, with-
out complaint upon their part of being underpaid—without com-
plaint upon the part of those who proposed the increase, that they
could not get a sufficier.ey of able men to accept the office—they
were called upon, he said, to give these Judges a bonus of 2,0001.,
and yet after that gill, admitting that it was necessary, still they
would not by such an increase rare them beyond the middling
class of society ; they would still leave them infinitely poorer than
the generality of the Members of that House—they would not be
able to get them out of the purlieus of the canuilk—they would
still leave them in that place, of which perhaps many Gentlemen
in that House did not know the situation, he meant Russell-
square—they would still leave them far too poor for Grosvenor ;
and he thought it would be better to allow them to remain in these
places where they had hitherto lived perfectly respected, and with
that kind of income which had been allowed to them not without
mature consideration. Having thus stated his opinions upon the
subjects of grants, which he thought had been classed together in a
manner very incorrect, and some of which stood upon grounds very
distinct from the others ; he begged to say that be considered the
reasons for the advance of income to the two Chiefs Justice and the
Master of the Rolls, to be perfectly good and defensible, but that
with regard to the others, he felt it his duty, and he might be be-
lieved when be added it was a painful one, not to consent to the
arrangement proposed, unless a much better case of necessity could
be made out for the consideration of the floute.

Dr. LUSH INGTON said he always felt considerable pain when
he was compelled to differ from those friends with whom he acted
on that side of the House, but from having given the subject now
before them a considerable degree of attention, he did not feel the
same distrust of judgment he might Lave felt on any other occa.
sion when opposed to his Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr.
Denman.) He always looked upon any proposition with regard
to the salaries of those who filled the judgment seat in our Courts
of Justice, as having only one object to secure for the due admi-
nistration of the laws—able, respectable, and efficient Judged', by
allowing them a sum which would render them perfectly indepen-
dent of all considerations of interest or necessity. Ilia Honourable
Friend had not expressed any disinclination to give the Chief Jus-
tice of the King's Bench 10.0001. a year, but he had qualified his
consent, perhaps; by adding that he only gave it as a compensation
foe the loss of tees, and because he considered that sum a fair cal-
culation against the sums which had been mentioned as belonging
to the situation. Now though he admitted that it was a matter of
great importance in get rid of the sale of places in the Courts of
Justici, yet he did not consider that as the only reason why the.
should fix adequate reffiunerating sums for those who devoted their
talents to those high stations. If he understood his Honourable
Friend rightly.. he said," You have hitherto had just, honourable,
u aright, and learned men on the bench ; you have had no deficiency
of men of talent to supply those places ; you have had no complaint
of the smallness of the salary, and you ought not, therefore, to raise
it at the instigation of his Majesty's Government." Now he
would ask his Honourable Friend whether the same objections,
as well as to the comirg from his Majesty's Government
as to others, would Dot have held equally good against the
raising of the salary in 1809. llis Honourable Friend said the
Puisne Judges had no claim—that they had not complained of any
want. It was true they had ant destructed themselves by coming
forward as humble petitioners for the bounty _of the State ; but if it
be meant to say that their Wary was sufficient to support the
dignities of their situation. bemuse say that he knew it was not ;
that he knew they did suffer deprivations; that they were compelled
to feel they could not gave one farthing for the benefit of their fa
lies, and that they found their income unequal to their yearly
expenditure. He thought, indeed, they had borne with singular
patience the difficulties of their situation, and that their silence
should not be used as an argument against the justice of their
claims. It was allowed that the duties were as much as ought to
be imposed upon any men, and when they took into their consi-
deration the great additional expense of attending at Assists, the
extraordinary increase of the gentlemen of the Bar, and the suns
necessary for supporting the hospitality of the Bench, he thought
no man could say that the sum of 4,0001. was sufficient to support
them in respectability, or make any future provision for their fami-
lies; and when they considered that the country appropriated to
itself the tirae and talents of those men when in the prime of life,
with their mental and bodily powers underayed, he maintained
that an increase of that sum was necessary to command the services
of such men, and adequately remunerate them, and that the people
of England were entitled to the services of men whose mental and
corporeal powers were anexhausted. It had been said there was no
difficulty in getting men of talent to fill those 'Situations. Certainly
that was true. But did they not consider the high honour, the
great rank, the advancement in society, which such an elevation
secured ; and were they, because a man might be tempted by that
peat honour to accept of such a situation—because he might be
induced to sacrifice his honours and emoluments at the bar—were
they to be so unjust as to see him make that sacrifice of time,
health, and fortune, without awarding hits an adequate compensa-
tion. He was of opinion that the House would gladly sanction a
measure which would, in some degree, put an end to such injus-
tice; and merely declaring that he could not agree with his
Honourable Friend that there ought to be any distinctions,'
he would say that for the reasons he had stated, and many others
which he thought might be advanced on the subject—the measure in
question had his decided approval. Before sitting down, however,
he would make one or two observations upon a subject connected
with the question. It was his opinion that some regulation should
be adopted which would give a more general distribution of busi-
ness between the King's Bench, Cotnmon Pleas, and Exchequer.
Great objections existed In the Common Pleas to the practice of
confining the business to Sergeants, and in the Exchequer to
the Attorneys, with some difference of the fees; now he thought
that if the causes of these objections were taken away, and all
the Courts put upon a proper footing, and equally economical,
the business of the King's Bench ynuld not be so overwhelm-
ingly great, and that the change would be attended with consider.
able benefit to the country. Another reason he would here state
for the increase of the salaries of the Judges, was the great in-
crease of crime, and the additional business required to be done at
the Old Bailey. On the Home Circuit, too, although there had
been a third Assize, so great was the increase of cases, that they ac-
tually had not been able to despatch the civil business, and here he
would remark that he saw no reason why the whole of the cases
occurring in the Bills of Mortality should not be taken at the Old
Salley, instead of being carried to the respective counties. The
Right Honourable Gentleman said that he wished to raise the salary
to 6,0001. that they might not be liable to those aspirations for
higher prefemients, which might exist at the present moment ; and
he was bound to say that the keeping of seven or eight Puisne
Judges in hopes of preferment, and in a continual state of excite-
ment and operation upon those feelings of the human mind which
it was hypocrisy to den, that all possessed—that the consequence of
such a state, the seeking to do things acceptable to the higher
powers', was a thing dangerous to the country, and which could not
be too much deprecated. He did not allude to any particular per.
son, but lie thought that promotions from that body excited those
feelings highly, and that if it ever did take place, it should be an
exception to a rule, and never occur but in favour of transcendent
powers and on great occasions. There was one other circumstance
connected with this question, which lie would take leave to men-
tion—the power of exclusively passing sentence in cases of toi•
minal jurisdiction—that power lie would wish to see divided with
the other Judges. At present the Judges of the Court of King's
Balch, in every case tried in the country, are compelled to read
long speeches and documents detailing the proceedings upon
the trial before they proceed to pass sentence. This he
considered a great loss of time as well as a severe hardship to the
Judges of the King's Bench ; and he thought that without violating
any great principle of jurisprudence, they might permit the other
Judges to pass sentence in the same manner, and thus materially
expedite the business of' the King's Bench, as well as divide more
equally the ditties of the Courts. The Hon. Gentleman, after
some observations upon the nature of the fees of the Courts. and
the necessity for investigating the nature of them, although they
were, as the Right lion. Gentleman said, to be paid into the
Treasury, disclaims, however, soy reflection upon either Lords
Ehlenborough or Kenyon, concluded by expressing his determina-
tion to comport the Resolution.
Mr. J. %V I LLI A MS, while he heard of the removal of saleable
offices, and the increase of salaries, could not but expresss his
regret that no amendment or alteration had been proposed by the
Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) in the
practice or construction of these Courts. It was true his lion. and
Learned Friend had thrown out mime suggestions, but when he
considered how slight was the attention paid to any thing which
cam,: front his side of the House upon any question he could no:


bat deplore that they had not heard him a little upon that subject as
well as upon the causer of the distribution of the additional salary.
With respect to the increase to the Chief Justice. lie agreed with
his Learned Friend (Mr. Denman) that it was just and proper,
provided it was regulated by the amount of the loss incurred ;
but while he admitted that there might be some reason for them,
he confessed he had heard no reasons fur the increase to the Vice-
Chancellor or the Puisne Judges. He had listened with' attention
to hear if any man in his prime had retuned to accept the office of
a Puisne Judge, for if that had been the case the publ.c had a
right to expect complaint ; but no buch case bad been mentioned,
and until they were able to show that either the young or the old
had refused the office on account of the insufficiency of its salary, I
lie thought they were not entitled to call upon that House for an
increase. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to enforce the ne-
cessity of some alteration in the Courts of King's Bench and Com-
mon Pleas, and said there were 250 canes in the King's Bench, and
only 25 in the Common Pleas, and from seven to ten in the Ex-
chequer; and that therefore there would be a great advantage in
dividing the business among the Courts. lie concluded by eased-
ing his desire to hear of some reform in the Courts as well as in-
crease in thc salaries of the Judges.
Mr. Secretary PEEL thought the House was obliged to his
Learned Friend for the very able speech which he had made in fa.
Your of the motion. He had truly said that the situation of the
l'uisne Judges was an important consideration in this measure.
His observations had been equally just upon the point of age.
Any man that examined into the matter would find that upon an
average of five-and-twenty years, the Judges had been t 0 years of
age. This alone. in his ( Mr. Peel's) opinion, was a sufficient,
proof that the provision for the Judges had not been of that amount
as to induce barristers in the prime of life to abandon their practice. '
He need nor, he thought, bring any particular instance, as that
must be a nufficient proof of the necessity of this measure. The
lion. Gentleman who first opposed the motion had, in his opinion,
been completely answered. lie (Mr. Peel) protested against what
had been said relative to its being absolutely necessary for a bar-
rister to have acquired a large fortune before taking upon himself
the office of Judge. This,in his opinion, was a principle too
aristocratical to be admitted. Let the salary of a Judge be suf-
ficient to maintain the integrity of his office. Let it be fixed at
live. six. or seven thousand pounds, if so much were necessary.
It had been complained that no details of fees, &c. had beat en-
tered into; but be they what they might, it was impossible to re•
duce them now, on account of the private interests which were at
present involved by the places having been brought by the present
holders. The arrangement which was now proposed would obviate
those difficulties. The fees in his opinion ought to be reduced,
upon the sole principle that the moment they were received dis-
interestedness must ewe. With regard to what bad been said of
Puisne Judges having been promoted t, the Chief Justicsship, ft
was very true, but it was airier it had been refused by gentle.nen
at the bar. The pleasure 'lid not originate with any -wish on the
part of Government to possess any undue influence over the Judges,
but simply, as Fe had said before, to make their salary equal to
support the dignity of the office they held. It had been said that
the amount of c. nvensation ought to balance the amount of in.
jury. This might be true in some cases; but we must pratest
against it in this. The present amount of fees in the Kings Bench
belonging to the Lord Chief Justice amounted to 9.2001. This wss
the present amount; but it would be extremely difficult to ascer-
tain the exact amount of loss if they were withdrawn. This depended
upon the longevity. of the Judge, and the prospective value of the
offices. Any pnrocular sum, therefore, was arbitrary ; but as the
Lord Chief Justice, by abolishing the fees, would sustain a cer-
tain loss of 9,200... he thought that the grant of 10,0001. was sot
too much. He must beg leave t.. rotest against any distinction
being made in the salaries of the Judges of the different Courts.
This would not be at all to the benefit of justice. With regard to
the other alterations that had been proposed, he was disposed to
listen to the proposition to open the Court of Exchequer, as it
might help to reduce the business of the Court of King's Bench.
This had been under his consideration for some time.

Mr. SCARLETT.—The lion. and Learned Gentleman began
in so low a tone of voice, that we did not catch his first sentences.
We understood him to agree with the Right lion. Member who
had just sat down, that the sum fixed upon was quite arbitrary.
He however thought that 10,000/. was below the average value.
They ought not only to look to what the officer were worth at pre.
sent, but also what they might be worth hereafter. This.be meant
with regard to the King's Bench ; as for the Common Pleas 4ie
could not say much about it. It had been truly said that the sa-
laries ought to be sufficient to make them acceptable to men in the
prime of life and full of practice. Wotid it, for example, be worth
the while of an A ttorney•General in full practice to resign it to ac-
cept of the ChiefJusticeship ? Suppose that the present Attorney.
General should be pitched upon to till the cffi te of Judge, which,
if to change of Administration took place' a thing not at all likely
(a laugh), would come to pass; ought it, he would ask, to be pos-
sible for his lion. and Learned Friend to have a doubt in his mind
whether he should or should not accept it ? In 1808, when the
question came before the House, the late Lord Chief Justice, In a
conversation wish him, had expressed his desire that some such
change should take place. M'hilst, however, they saw that the at.
lary was large enough, they must at the same time see that it was
not too large. It might in that case become an object of
,political '
ambition, and be disposed of front interest, favour, or other undue
means. It was not everybody that was qualified to be a Judge; it
required long practice and knowledge of technicalities, which sumac
of moderate talents might possess; whilst another who had.perbape
the greatest abilities would not so well execute the office a Judge.
from want of this experience. This assertion was well supported
by an anecdote related by Lord Coke of himself. James I. ace
asked him why he (the king) was not qualified to judge in a arr.
tain matter, since it could not be denied that he possessed all the
wisdom and reason necessary to tom a man's mind ? To this Lord
Coke reports himself to have answered, that it was very true
that his Majesty possessed all the wisdom and talents In the
would, but that &certain knowledge of technicalities was necessary.
He had formerly heard of Judges being made on recount of their
connections, having boroughs at their disposal—not that he
thought such transactions would again take place ;_but he merely
mentioned them as having happened. Re mentioned these chem.
stances to show that it a:IS possible to raise the salary too high.
With regard to what had been said about the age of the Judges,
there were examples of young Judges having taken the office when
the salary was lower than it was now. Mr. Justice Buller became
a judge at 36 years of age ; and at that time the situation was
not worth 2,5001. It was nearly the same with Lord Kenyon,
neither of them were deterred by the smallness of the salary. As
to what had been said relative to the practice of the Judges in
Chambers, he, for one, could not disapprove of it. The business
of the King's Bench, had net, as had been thought, increased, but
had, on the contrary, diminiehed, and was not so great as it was
ten years ago. It was the practice of Judges to depose of busi.
nest in their Chambers, and now having no vacation, one of the
Judges was resolved to enjoy hit evenings, and retired froth
Court at three o'clock. It bad been said that Judges ought
not to receive fees ; but upon thin subject he was afraid the
opinion that he was about to give would be unpopular.
There were certain fees on writs of error ; now these he thought
might very well be abolished r but there were others that
he thought might be kept with advantage, for where there was a
fee, were it ever so small, the business was, he had generally ob-
served, done with greater despatch. It would perhaps be thought
hard to press on the Right Hon. Mover the necessity of a general
reform in the Courts of Law ; but he was sure that this measure
would lead to it. lie thought that 10,0001. was not enough for the
Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench, whilst he was rather of
opinion that that for the Puisne Judges was too large. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman concluded by saying, that lie did not think
that the proposed alteration in the Exchequer would I educe the but
shwas of the King's Bench.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL begged to explain to the
House that the Exchequer had greater business than had beset
stated. In addition to the causes which had been alluded to, the
Exchequer decided all revenue cases, and afterwards held sittings
in equity at Gray's Inn Hall after Term. In 1813, there was a
great accumulation of business in the King's Bench, and for the
purpose of getting through it, the Judges of their own accord held
sittings at Scrjeant's Inn Hall, but the =ear nevertheless con.
tinued to be great till the time of the present Lord Chief Justice.
The practice was not altered for any purpose of personal conve-
nience to the Judges, but on account of the difficulties attending ;
among others was, that in chambers they were not able to try every
kind of cause, nor were they competent to give judgments there.
So far (roue consulting their own comforts, he believed that from
1813 down the present time the Judges had sat out of Term, for
the purpose of despatching the arrears of business pending in their
-Court& He thought therefore it was a little hard upon the Judges,
when they, having thus given up the whole of their time, and de-
voted themselves from an early hour in the morning to hear the
arguments of Counsel, that it should be matter of complaint that
they did not attend as usual at chambers in the evening. This was
Dot just towards those learned individuals, nor was it possible that
they should be able to attend at chambers ; for if they sat from day
to day to hear arguments of Counsel on points of law, often very
intricate, and upon questions which it was impossible for them im-
mediately to determine, their evenings were necessarily occupied in
considering those questions. Ile admitted certainly what his Hon.
and Learned Friend (Mr. Searlett) had stated, that a difficulty did
arise out of this circumstance, inasmuch as that sonic inconvenience
was occasionally experienced, by one of the Judges leaving the
Court from time to time to attend at chambers. But still the busi.
-nese of the Court was not at all at a stand, for three of the Judges
continued to sit from ten to tour o'clock, and disposed of a great
deal of business. With respect to the general question before the
Committee, he would observe, that it was not suggested on the
other side that the salary of the Lord Chief Justice was at present
adequate to the duties he was required to perform. it waasaid that
it was doubtful what Wan really thc emoluments belonging to the
Lord
Chief Justice. They were not to confine themselves, in esti•
mating these emoluments, to the learned person who Dow filled the
offi:c but they should judge what the office was really w tech. The
emoluments were stated to be about 5,0001. a-vear but then, if
they were to take into their consideration the office of Chief Clerk,
which belonged to the bard Chief Justice, ar,d the salary which he
might himself receive, It would amount to considerably mare. Lord
Ellenborough did actually receive this salary, and therefore in his
time the value of that office was 4,0001.; the amount of salary out
of the Civil List 5,000/. ; the emoluments arising from fees, and the
j,0($11. a-year, which was the value of the office of Chief Clerk—
making altogether no leas a sum than 16,0001. It was true the
present Chief Justice and Lord Kenyon received less than their
share, because this office had been disposed of by their predecessors;
but it was with the average value of the office of Chief (led( that
they had to do. Lord Ellenborough enjoyed this office for two
lives, for his son now enjoyed it. This was public property, and
was therefore at the disposal of the public, and might in his opinion
be disposed of in whatever way Parliament should think proper.
\Vial regard to the office of Chief Justice of the Common Pleas.
he was quite sure that thc annual avcrav value of that office

was at least equal to the sum which was proiosel to be
riven by his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Cseltequer.
The case, however, came to this (tor as to the rest it was all
matter of arrangement, neither increasing the salaries nor thou_
nishing them) what was the proper salary which this House ought
to give to the Puisne Judges. Although their profession was in
some degree a profitable one, yet it was a mistake to conceive that
getplemen, befeire they got to the Bench, had all realised a pro.
perty. The o_pportunities of doing so were afforded but to a say
few. In the first pine the education preparatory to the Bar was -a
very expensive one, and no gentlim.ua cculd evaa ealcubue upon
return beyond his expenses till he arrived at the age of 30 years or
more; what gentleman, except such a one who was most peen.
Italy fortunate in his connections, ever had realised more !ham
sufficient to support hilt till he attained the age of 30 years ?' ALd
then, if lie eliould be levated to the Bench at forty, where were
the opportunities afforded him to realise sfortune for his family pre.
vious to his becoming a .fudge ? It had been said, indeed, that
there was no instance of any gentleman to whom a judgeship
had been offered. who had refused to accept it 00 account of the
salary being inadequate to his necessities. Now there was a 010,1
illustrious instance of such a refusal having been made not many
yeah ago, by a gentleman whose professional knowledge was out.
venally known, and whose talents were only equalled by the Mg' h
estimation in which his personal character wag held ; he meant the
late Mr. Justice Dampier. That Learned Gentleman had a seat
on the Bench offered to him, but he chained it on the ground that
he could not affbrd to sacrifice the profits of his prisfewhoo. Unfur.
moue's, however, about two yews afterwards his health became
impaired, and he then prayed for the 'situation which he had before
refused, and his appointment took place; but he had not keel
the honourable station long before death deprived the country
of his labours. The question, alter all, came to this: what was the
situation in life, and what was the station which the Judges of this
country ought to sustain In 'mutely ? ll'as 3,2001. sufficient to
enable then' to maMmin that station ? Judges were not like other
members of the profession. A gentleman at the bar who might
realise only 3.200/. per year might live within his income, and trait
his mete of life to the demands of his family ; but a Judge could
not. Gut of 3.200/. it would be impossible that gentlemen who
had the dignity of their station to uphold could realise anything fat
their families; all therefore which could be devoted by them to
their children was the profits of their previous professional eaten at
the bar. If the Commitsdesired that the Judges of the land
should sustain a good and respectable station in society, worthy of the
dignity and importance of their office as dispersers of justice, and
administrators of the laws of the country, then lie considered that
there ought to be an augmentation made to their present income,
whic't was inadequate for th ttlimrposc • I ut iu wi.at proportion it
was for the ('ommittee to consider; in his judgment, however, it
could not be less than dr sum proposed by his Right Hon. Friend,
lie was disposed to give every attention to the suggestion of his
Bon. and !learned Friend (Mr. Scarlett), with regard to throwing
open the Court of Common Pleas and of the Eschequer, for causal
which were now heard and disposed of in the Court of King's
Bench but this was a subject which required a great deal of con-
sideration. It by no means followed, that by opening these Courts
the business which was now carried on in the King's Bench, or any
portion of it, would Bow in that direction, -if there were to be three
Cinn is opened instead of one, yet if any one of them was in the
alighest degree preferred, the business of that Court would in.
crease. When he had the honour to introduce the Bill a few fiess
shoos ago for empowering the Judges to sit after Term, he always
considered it rather as a measme to be resorted to only as a tempo.
rary expedient to despatch the ovetfiow of business, than that it
should be continued as a part of the regular course of the besinne
of the Court. The true way of distributing the business of the
Courts was, that the King's Bench should resume its former period
of hearing and deciding causes. The consequence would be that
clients would necessarily resort to other Cluurts when they found
that the Court of King's Bench could not dispose of it for them,But instead of such being the effect, according to the present mode,
the House was for making greater facilities fur the introduction of
further business to that Court, by which the other Caurts were de.
prised of their proportionate share. It was far fmn being his in.
tention that the Bill introduced by hint should have had that effect;
it was, as he had already said, intended only as a temporary mea-
sure. The Judges of the country ought not to be perpetually em-
ployed in the laborious duties of their station. They ought to
hare time, like other Gentlemen, to cultivate literature and the
sciences. Unfortunately it happened to those who were destined
for the legal profession in our time, that, after having par.
sued their classical studies, they were obliged to suspend all
literary pursuits, and apply themselves to the less agreeable task of
studying the law. This was indeed in his opinion a great misfor.
woe to their profession ; it depreciated much from the intellectual
acquisitions of a gentleman and a scholar. The Judges should
have time to see how the affairs of mankind were conducted-40
witness the events of the ige—to remark on the progress of intellect,
and not be perpetually occupied in the labours of their judicial
offices. In reference to the assimilating the practice of the Court of
Common Pleas to that of the Court of King's Bench, he saw no
reason why that Court should not be as open as the Court of King's
Bench, and that the Sergeant should he an every respect like the
King's Counsel in the latter Court. and that juniors should also go
there and plead as they did in the King's Bench. But be believed
that one of the principal reasons why the business of the two Courts
was not more assimilated in quantity was, that the mode of taxing
costs in the Pleas eat inconvenient to the attorneys, and that
bus Mess did net therefore flow into that t'ourt so much as Into the
other. Upon the whole be considerfil that the arrangement now
proposed to be made 1111 s one less calculated to benefit the Judea
titan to convenience the public. He indeed thought that the
Judges would rather be the sufferas by the proposed alteration;
but for the reasons which he had stated, and those which had been
mentioned by his Right Bonet:1;1)1e Friend (the C'hancrlior of the
Exchequer), he felt bound to support the motion before the Coin.
mitree.

Mr. SCARLETT explained.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY said that after the able discussion which
Fad taken place between the Honourable and Learn al Gentleman
who had preceded, he would not tie:pass long upon the attention
of the Committee, but he hoped he might venture to give his opinion
upon the important measure now before the Committee. lie would
merely ask those who knew any thing of the Courts of Law, and
who had any idea of the labours of she Judges, to put themselves
for a moment in the situation of a man wh h had attained to a high
station in his profession, and to a certain degree of celebrity,
by which his emoluments enabled him to maintain an establishment
of suitable rank and importance; and then to consider himself re.
mortal from the practice at the bar, and elevated to the bench, he
would ask him how much could lie realise nut of that pitiful salary
which was at present allowed to thePuisne Judge, that could at all
maintain the rank and station in society which his former profes-
sional profits had enabled him to support ? It was extreme 'y
convenient that persons to be appointed Judges should be allowed to
arrive at that time of life when the duties of the office required the
vigorous exertion of the bodily and mental faculties. Surely it
wits not too much to say that persons in high official situ/more
should have the means of raising a fond for their children, and
not be dependent on the profits of their previous labours. This
was la question that became important, inasmuch as it might be
brought home to the feelings of every in lividual who thought but
for a few moments on the subject ; and he should they, fore give
his most cordial support to the motion of. the Right Honourable
entlemau.

Sir C. FORBES gave his most hearty concurrence to the
measure proposed. and trusted that the Right Honourable Gentle-
man would consider it expedient to place the Judges of Scotland
and of Ireland on a similar footing wi h those of England. With
regard to Scotland, he was happy to say, that there was not one
Judge who receive a sixpence as a fee, and, with only one ewe-
tion, there was not a legal office at their dispestl. When he should
state to the Committee that the salaries of those Judges only
amounted to 2,0e.0J. a-year' he hoped he was not expressing too
eatimiine an expectation that that sum would be increased at least
I MM.
Mr. lIU3IE did not expect there would be that unanimous vote
upon this occasion which had been anticipated by the Right
Honourable Gentleman. The Right Honourable Mover bed
made no ground for his case. He had not shown that any we
Judge was dissatisfied with his present salary, nor that the people
had at all required it either from a feeling of generosity. or from a
conviction that the law would be betteradroinistered by an increaseof
the Judges' sslarielt. It had been argued by the Ho I. and Learned
Gentleman (the Attorney-General), that it was proper the Judges
should have more leisure. but would, adding two or three thousand
pounds to their salaries give them more time? If there mu one
reason more than another why this motion should not be agreed to,
it ass that which had been stated by the Hon. Baronet (Sir C.
Ft rb A), with respect to the increase of the salaries of the Scotch
and Irish Judges. The moment the House should begin in-
creasing salaries, it must go on doing so, and be knew not why they
should stop with the Judges. Every public officer is the country
would naturally look forward to a proportionate advance. It was ex-
traordinary that although i• was said that the country could not get
men of talent and ability to fill the office of Judge, because of thel,l3-
dequate remuneration, yet there was only one solitary instance in the
course of a century which could be brought forward where a gently
nun had been offered the situation and had declined it : and was if
I upon this single exception that the House now proposed to leeis-
late ? The Right Honourable Gentleman would have done better
to have appointed a Committee to inquire into the value of the
offices of which the Judge could not dispose, By a Report of Mr.
' Abbott, it appeared there were forty offices in the appointment of
the Chief Justice, some of them only saleable. The step now pro-
puaeil was an enormous one—from 3,200 f. to ti,lXklf. He was sorry
to say that there were many instances where the public money was
voted away without much consideration, but that was in cases
where the demand would not be again made ; here, however, there
WAS only a commencement of a system of an increase of salaries. +chi'
would prevent the possibility of a reduction of those taxes which
the people had a right to expect should be granted them. The
question was ill-timed and uncalled for, and if any How:l:able
Friend would put it in his power to oppose it by on amea,:ment,
he would most readdily second it.
Mr. TREMAVNE expressed his most cord:al aptprohativi of
the measure, and hoped the Right Honourable Gentleman would
pursue the course he had so excellently begun.
Mr. DENMAN was quite prepared to adopt the augers:lon 0.
his Ilonourable Friend Mr. Hume, and to propose in amender ;nc
which would embrace the whole subject of the motion. He they
moved, " That it was the opinion of this Commit ce that ex) part of
the emolument of the Chief Justices of the King's Bench ard the
Common Pleas ought to be paid out of fees or the sales of others ;
and further, that the salary of the Master of the Rolls should be
placed upon an equality with that of the Vice-Chancellor.
Mr. H. DR U 31310 ND supported the grant.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would just ad-
vert to what had been alluded to by Hoc. Membeni as to the Inch
mid Scotch Judges' salaries. Ile had not looked at their case will,
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Judea. end therefore he was not peepand to sate his opinion with I
were:* to them: he, however, was not prepared to say that their
ogria ought nut to be inereased. It might, however, be proper
10 consider how far the map of those Judges were similar to the
of this country. It the reason for increasing the salary of
me would lead by fair inference to give it to another, he
should not care what obloquy might fall upon him ; he
ibould come forward to propose a proportionate increase ; the
rTinciple upon which he acted being that they should pay per.
sons adequately to the service which they rendered to the public.
lie should propose in the Bill which he purposed to introduce, to
regal tte that the salaries should be proportioned to the duties of
the offices row annexed to the Chief JusUcestrip as soon AS the
:ntereits of the present patentees &NM sue. and that the duty of
thee offices should be done In pass
Colonel BAGWELL spoke is 'MOW SI Hie grant, and hoped
the same increase would be eztesded the /edges of Ireland.
Sir J. IVROTTESLEr dee peat.
Str F. BUR DET:fair watt Who moot allowance: he
wished the allowance to J be Shoal. but be complained of
want of sufficient I
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the
sum promo* to be given to the Cadet Justices 'lain conformity to
the seassiboodation of a Report eta CoMmisMoa. The Honour.
able Booms had theatre me apt to amiolala .1 lila proceeding
withost diet inffiesindes. A IR ibe 'dim jape, It was not 10
1162. M Iht a istenaleate
mr. OCA 'LETT MPS* .41i0 seesideoent, te regulate the
Wads of the Chief Justices asobilled to tbs average of the emolu-
ment* of the last twenty years.
The CHANCELLOR of she EXCHEQUER said, that the
prONIII Chid Jades vs WM.WWWWIOIIIIO preset sum to be pm-
poet Be We I. fak tho gespood of the sewage analateeat of
the Aloe or be iduldr es it vs assail. ems of the Chief Jae.
tine dedelosh hago atsn, wed shsia—as was the case of the pre-
vat.ollllll iiiiideo--datMeg very Ijule
MllllllllllClkilil. In tallith Mr. Dili YAW leg the Cuaitcitx.
too ofillio Ara took apart,
Itr. IllDlldo 6,7 a year VIII Ho high a salary
f Palma Jelin. SS a year might Mop a man,
sibtert,HOL wash mt. ilesaght ibis ogsossieo materially af.
fiend the behgeodeast of the Bar. - He le call the atten.
newt As Rom Ire which he bed read that day. of the dis-
pod 61411.44 to of the Bar. Ile said, in one instance,
oat of olslbit bmind sad gerbil:Hata% there were one hundred and
weatty*o *ma bdd in sue Court, and that four of these places
etre WM leg vie perms. He would submit this list to the House
to toes More esaldon.
Thesassidtauss were then negatived, and the original resolution
agreed to.
Sir J. WHOTTESLEY moved an amendment, that the salary
of the Polsne Judges be I,olllof.
Mr. HEN N disapproved of the amendment, which was ne-
gatived without • divismo.
Colonel BAGWELL was desirous of calling the attention of
his Majesty's Government to the consideration of the case of the
Chief Justices of Ireland, and whether it was the intention of Gu-
vertuncit to propose an augmentation of their salaries ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that he
by no means intended to conclude the considerat,on of judicial
compensation by the present Bill. lie directed nimself, in the
first insnince, to the consideration of the Judges of those Courts, as
they had saleable offices at their disposal, which were not possessed
by the Judges oldie other parts of the kingdom proportionate to
the nature of their services.
Mr. h. RICE supported the claim of the Chief Justice and
Judges of heland toast augmentation of salary. The other reso-
lutions were then agreed to, and the Report ordered to be brought
up to-morrow.
COTTON MILLS' REGULATION BILL.
Mr. HOBHOUSE- moved the second reading of the Cotton
Mills' Regulation Bill.
Mr. HORYBY opposed the second reading of the Bill. A Bill
lasi been introduced into Parliament to regulate the labour of per.
ions in cotton factories. It was the result of an investigation of a
Committee up stain, and he saw no reason to alter it. The effect
of the Bill of the Honourable Member would be to diminish the
period of labour by one twelfth of the present time. After a ma-
ture consideration he regarded the measure as most inexpedient,
aid he would therefore move that the Bill be read again this day six
menthe._

.„... .... .
Mr.....JBHOUSE opposed the amendment. lie described the
condition of the children as most lamentable. In Ilaneheeter, at
the best mills, the children work fopeteen hours a day, deducting
an hour and • half for meals. Some ys they were not allowed to
go out to mesh, but were forced to ch their food from the fleet.
This was the state of the children the beat mills; but in some
LO
mills they worked fifteen and sieteet hours without intermission.
This was the deplorable state of the children employed in the
cotton mills, and it was nothing to say that by legislating we should
injure the cotton trade. He (Mr. H.) would rather give up the
cotton trade, and all other trades, than sutler the continuance of so
ouch injustice, or that we should support the proprietors of mills io
working fortunes out of the bones anti sinews snd muscles of chit-
dren. All he (Mr. ilobhouse) desired by his Bill, was to make Sir
di. Peel's Bill effective, by giving Magistrates the power of en.
forcing it, and limitirg the number of working hours to eleven.
air. Secretary PEEL doubted the policy of limiting the number
ef vivldng Unto le eleven. After a minute investigation it was
aped don teen hours was not too much, and now without any
investigation, only upon die suggestion of a most respectable
Member of that House, it was proposed to send up a Bill to the
'Ards. altering the number of hours which had been formerly
agreed to. He (Mr. Peel) fully concurred with the lien. ,Member
iiir Westminster that the law should be enforced. When Paella-
bent limited the number of working hours to 72 in a week this
regulation should be strictly attended to. He (Air. Peel) believed
that the law was not acted upon, and therefore he thought it a wise
sad salutary proposal that power should be given to Magistrates to
carry its provisions into operation. If the lion. Member for West-
nuter confined his motion to carrying into foil effect the law as
it at present stood, it should have his (Mr. Peel's) support.
We should try the experiment of making the existing laws
effectual before we legislated anew. The present law, in his
opinion, was complete, and may be made effectual. The
peaalty attached to a breach of it was sufficient, and he thought
no reasonable objection could be made to carrying its provisions
ioo operation. If the lion. Member (Mr. Hobhouse) should
prove in the Committeethat a limitation of the hours was necessary,
he (Mr. Peel) should he glad to support his Bill. He would not
hew oppose the second reading, or vote for the amendment (that it
le read this day six months), but he could not prdmise the lion.
Gentleman that he would support the clause for limiting the work.
ing hours, when the Bill found its way into the Committee.
Mr. W. SIIITH said, that when Sir R. Peel's Bill went to the
Lords the number of working hours was limited to fie, and not to
7l as had been stated. This provision of the Bill was evaded in •
most shameful, disgraceful, and inhuman manner. In his opinion
three was abundant necessity for the Bill which his lion. Friend
l.lr. llobhouse) had brought in.
Mr. TWA made a few observations in support of the Bill.
Dlr. G. PHILLIPS, bring resident in Lancashire. and taking
Touch interest in the subject,. had become acquainted with the con.
d:iion of the manufactories in that district long ago, and lie ad.
netted that they were then in a bad state; but it was perfectly
certain that they had been since then wonderfully improved.
The supposed sufferings so much dwelt upon would probably have
nut been heard of from any other class of operatives.—the weavers
foriastance. Those engaged in cotton.factoriee were querulous
oil prone to faction, and therefore their discontents made more
poise than the occasion required. The weavers had one third less
'Ws, and yet from them no complaints were heard. He was op-
Pined to any enactment which would have the effict of limiting the'
number of hours in the day which an operative might be at liberty
to work. In had times fifteen hours labour might be little enough
Lr tie support of himself and his' family. Any Act which might
by Peeled could only have a partial operation, for the less respect-
alee mills would assuredly evade its provisions, lie was of opinion
that it was exceedingly dangerous to agitate the question. In Imo I
the discussion of it produced great injury in the manufaciuriiig
cattier& Until lately the operatives looked up to their employers
as their best protectors, but now the desire for needless legislation has
coated a breach between those whose interest it was to maintain the
bat understanding.
Sir F. BURDETT could not concur in many of the opinions of
the lion. Member who had preceded him. lie agreed that no in-
terference ought to take place with regard to commercial transac-
tions, or with regard to the prices at which manufacturers should
oil their labour. He admitted the force of all the general reasoning
that could be urged on this subject; but he contended that to the
pewit ease it did not eerily. It was alleged that nothing had so
bad an Piliti as legislation in regard to this class of opera.
tires; but let it be observed, that before any Acts of the
Legislature were passed, abuses of the worst kind prevailed,
*bell had since confessedly diminished, and the manufacturing
liepulation are now consequently in a worse situation than they
tore before. To interfere between the working men and their em-
Pi*Yers, in the case of adults, is very different from doing so in the
cat efehildren—of innocent and defenceless children, when made
'tram to the cupidity of their parents, or others who may have
soar otter them. If the statements furnished on the occasion were
ounded in truth, he hesitated not to say that nothing worse existed
a negro slavery. Sir Robert Peel's Act was most shamefully
'Wel by the parties making use of children younger than those
Prohibited by the Act. They were used with more severity titan
teen horses; they were kept standing twelve hours a day, and when
oncome with sleep through ex :risme toil they were beaten to keep
'Pon awake; statements to this effect he read from a paper which
41 been furnished to him, and he also read the opinion of some
medical men on the subject. He confessed that he felt strongly
'Pub regard to this cruelty, and he wondered how any man could
hike up his mind to allow children to be so treated.
Mr. PIIII,I.IPS in explanation said, that the amelioration
brought about was not effected by the operation of any statute ; it
rata tell from other causes.
hit P. .MUSGRAVE opposed the Bill.
„Pectot LUSH INGTON said that one would suppose it was a
4411 for regulating the wages of those who could voluntarily en-
e thernselves, and not for the protection of those who were un-
a'le to protect themselves. and who in the eye of the law could
'
.1.414 ro bargains for the sale of their own labour. lie ut
the ronederallon of the House, whether it ought not to
rut a top to this worm than negro sherry.
im3le. J. SMITH supported the Bill. lie bore testimony at the
tame
etiree to the care which some of the manufacturers took of the
under their care.
, lilt kVA NS supported the Bill. He agreed that the Bill was
'.?.,dlylcalleil.tOr, and thought that the hours of labour might be
r:id with advantage to the manufacturers, by having a more
77 : and vignrotis population to do the work of their manufac.
' rel. Be thought that although the period of labour was too

NrittOlt 11,rtx40.

DRUIIr—LANE 7'HEATIIE.
Tkis Evening, TUESDAY, Way 17. will be performed led time) a
Romantic Drama. caned
FAUSrUS
The Principal Characters by Messrs% allsekeTerry. Harley. Knight,
Browne. Archer, Bedford, 'ma Penley; Meadam6.l I. Paton, Stephens.
and Pure).

To conclude with
TIDE SI.LRPINU Dlt AUGHT.
To-morrow, William Tell, and Abell Hassan.

COVENT-GA- n ijEN TH TRP:
This Evening, TUESDAY Mar 17. will be performed
NATIVE LAND:
Or, THE RETURN FROM SLAP:RV.
.I.ireli.. dl Montalto, Mr. Sinclair: Guiseppo, Mr. W. Farris; Tau.
rrrdl, Mr. Cooper; Perearino, Mr. Fawcett. C.lrmauni,_l4las Paton;
Zan iaa, Mies Love; Blundlna, Miss NI. Tree.
After which.
LOFTY PROJECTS: Or, ARTS IN AN ATTIC.
Mr.ValentineVeraatile. M r.Yates.
To rosclude with CENT. PER CENT.
To-morrow, The Belle's Stratagem, end The Barber of Seville.

HAYMARKET 2'HEATRE.
This Evening. TI:ESD,II% May 17. will be performed
FORTUNE'S FROLIC.
Rubin Rough-head, Mr. Wilkinson.
After which.
LOVE' VILLAGE.
. . • •

Justice Woodcock, Mr. Dowton: Young Meadows, Mr. Melrose:
Hawthorn, Mr. Pyne. Rosetta, Miss George.
Toe a lode with TURN OUT.
Restive, Mr. Dowton ; Doctor Truekie. Mr. N Illiams ; Forage. Mr.
N•. West; Gregory. Mr. M.llkitison Marian Ramsay, Mrs. Davison.
To-morrow, The Bemire' Opera, with I ribulation, and Peeping
Tom.

The DILITISII PIUS commef.ced modustiing yesterday morning
at five o'clock.

LONDON, TUESDAY, M.r 17, 1825.

By the Leeward Island packet yesterday we received
Colombian Papers to the arid of March inclusive. On
Tuesday last we exclusively published, from the New
York Papers, an extract from the Colombiano of the 16th
of March, in which it was announced that the French
Government had made a prop ',Rion to flour** to ester-
, Wish a Monarchy in Colombia, which he immediately.
transmitted to Congress, accompanying it with his resig-
nation of the Presidency, and an application for leave to
retire from the country. In the extract to which we seek'
the Editor of the C./um/dam, expressed a strong liislath
that a knowledge of the designs of France had acerb.
rated the recognition of the new States by England. Rs
added—" Hence, too, the hostile appearance of French
vessels on our coast, and the interception of the fishermen
Richards at sea, to ascertain whether the mine had beau
sprung, or, in the words of Captain DI FatsNE, who*
Genera! BOLIVAR was." This sentence was at the tilliff
wholly inexplicable to us. The correspondence we now
publish between the French naval Officers and General
PAEZ will clear up the mystery. A French squadron, it
was known, had been cruising for some time off Puerto
Cabello. It now appears that after a somewhat peremptory
demand had been made for the surrender of a privateer,
and the reparation of an alleged insult, the Commander of
the French squadron on that station sent an Officer to
make some inquiries of a fisherman respecting the frigate
Jeanne d'Arc, of which he was in search. The Officer also
asked where General bit vAa was; and to this fact the
Editor of the Colombiano alludes as being connected with
the plot for seducing the Liberator to become the tyrant
of his country. The following observations were not con-
tained in the New York Paper; and as they will be found
important, we subjoin them. The Congress, we learn, had
debated the communication of Bort v with closed doors;
and this circumstance had excited suspicion among the

Colombians. We have no doubt that the alarm felt as to
the proceedings of the Congress is a, groundless as we
believe is the apprehension of hostility from the French
Government.

Letters from La Guayra, dated 28th March, sate that
the French squadron had ends., ly left the coast of Colombia,
without any unpleasant event, or any occurrence which
might lead to a misunderstanding between France and
Colombia.

'• If we could imagine (which we do not) that our Government
would deliberate for a moment on this insidious proposition, the
appearance of Colonel Campbell with the approbation of our pre-
sent system by England, together with the circumstances which
seem to have called forth that recognition, sill give a new aspect
to the question ; whilst the liberation of Peru will satisfy the Holy
Alliance, that as the Americas require no foreign aid to conso-
lidate their governments, so have they no need to model them by
its Counsels.

" Some alarm has been unnecessarily created by a statement of
Congress having debated this matter with dosed doors. If secret
Sessions hare been held, various causes may exist at the present
moment for this precaution, without attributing it to a motive dis-
honourable to our representatives, and at variance with the spirit
which seems to have led the Liberator to submit this matter to the
Legislature. From the tone which we are given to understand
pervaded General Bolivaes rejection of the overture, he must have
submitted it to Congress not as debatable matter, but as subject
of information, and therefore we cannot believe that Congress has
condescended to discuss its merits: even in that case, however,
the result cannot be doubtful. General Bolivar has well reminded
the country that the Constitution is sacred for ten years ; and
assuredly it would be less unconstitutional to discuss the question
which called tins observation forth, than one of Monarchy.
" In reference to that ques ion, we take occasion to observe spe-
culatively in favour of it, how much more multiplied would be
the opposition to innovation under five or six legislatures, than
it possibly can be under one."

From the Garda de Colorado we have extracted the fol-
lowing account of the alleged proposition from the French
Government to Botirss. The person through whom this
proposition was made is not named, but he is represented
as having been in communication with the Cortes of Spain,
with Prince METTERNICH, and with the Emperor ALEX.
ANDER :

" A Frenchman having transmitted from London various private
letter, to the Liberator and President, in which he seeks to impress
hint with mistrust of the British AI inistry, relative to the recognition
of Colotnbia, advises him to proclaim himself a constitutional Ring,
and suggests to him the measures necessary to gain the military
and the citizens of influence, friends of liberty, promising to bring
him, in person • project of a constitution ; and concludes by
assuring him th'itt on this condition the Powers of Europe win have
no difficulty in rccognizing Colombia. The President, indignant
at reading such iniquitous counsels, has sent the letters to
the Vice. President of the Republic, stating in a confidential
letter that he consigns them to his hands, with a view of dtnounc.