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London, England, 1808-05-28 00:00:00

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opinion o hich had been given on the day I tnade a
motion for postpoueineut, by a Noble Friend of
mine, (Earl Moira), whose opinions so very deserv-
edly stand high in the opinion of this House and
of the country. That opinion went to regret that
the great subject of the Catholic Petit should
be at this moment pressed into public discussion.—
When that opinion was expressed, I did feel it my
duty to state to yonr Lordships, that, with respect
to the propriety of bringing this question before
the Legislature; I had not given an opinion ; that
in the decision which led to the presentation of the
present petition, I was not consulted ; and 1 did
state, t:.at the only question then was, whether
your Lordships were willing to enter into the
discussion
of. its merits or not ? And give
me leave, my Lords, to recall your recollec-
tions to sentiments which 1 had advanced in

this House in the first Session of the present Par-

liniment.. takiug a yiew of the state of the em-
pire as it stood at tbse period. in claiming, iu the
manner in which I was best able, the attention of

the new Government to our most dear and

portant interests, is pointing out to them the most
effectual and most salutary method io which they
could secure our safety mid advance our greatness,
I did most ,seriously and sincerely recommend
that which appeared to me the most paramount,
under the formidable dangers with which our em-
pire was menaced, namely, the prompt and fullest
discussion upon the state of Ireland, and the vital
necessity of adopting such means as were best
fitted to conciliate that great and respectable body
of its population, our Holum' Catholic fellow-
subjects. (Mar ! hear ! hear !) And whilst I
impressed upon the King's Ministers the actual
necessity of their performing that great duty, hot
alone to the Catholics, but to the nation ; not alone
to Ireland, but to Great Britain ; I did in con-
templating the conduct which the Irish Catholics
in my view ought to pursue; fotribly recommend
on their part forbearance ' • I did so, because I
wished the liberality of the British nation, and the
spirit of concession in its Government, to antici-
pate and outrun the hopes and the exertions of
that respectable class of the people. 1 did more-
over add, that there might be circumstances affect-
ing and felt by the Catholics of Ireland, of the
force and influence of which it was impossible for
me or any other Noble Lord to estimate the
strength ; nor have I now any reasons to change
the declarations which I then express( d. At any
time I never could take upon myse!f to say, that
this or that period was not proper for a great portion
of His Majesty's honest subjects, labouring under
grievances, and subject to restrictions, to lay
their case before Parliament, mid solicit the consti-
tutional organ for redress. But if 1 could enter-
tain a contrary opinion—if I ever did doem the
pressing of this great question at that moment
injudicious—the events of the last two days, the
general feeling that has been diffused, growing
out of those events, must convince every reflecting
man that the •pport 'ty was both fit and season-
able for the discussion of this measure ; and I do
most strongly feel the strength of those motives,
which induced the petitioners to bring their case
before the Legislature. They have declared it
their decided wish to adopt such a line of conduct
as was calculated to keep the hopes and expec-
tations of the great body of subjects, with whom
they were so intimately connected, fixed irre-
moveably upon the United Parliament. They
wish to make that the centre from which every
benefit which they solicited was to emanate,
to make it not the some, alone of privileges or of
rights, bat the fountain of every blessing which it
was possible for a free people to enjoy.—(Hear!
Hear!) How then could any man, unacquainted as
I am with the local ciretiuistauces of Ireland, bow
was it possible fur use to put my private opinior in
opposition to declarations sincerely avowed, and
so powerfully recommended ? No. The view of
my duty led me to support the petition when pre-
sented, and in the course of the events which have
occurred since that period,l haven reason to regret
the line of conduct which I have selected. It is,
therefore, that I do this night hope that the result
of this discussion, in place of giving any offence to
the respectable persons whose cause is now before
you, will not only avoid such an effect, but will ill-
duce them to look up with confideuce. not alone
for the ultimate accomplishment, but for the
acceleration of their hopes. Again, I may ask,
were there not additional reasons, of • na-
ture and cogency sufficient to impel the Ca-
tholics of Ireland to renew their solicitations fur
redress? They could not help referriir• to the
great changes which had taken place in 'Europe,
and to the iullnence which such changes must have
produced, not alone upon Ireland, but upon the
general and vital interests of the British empire.—
. They saw that the trenches, which, when last they
were before the Legislature, the enemy had only
opened, were now considerably advanced ; that the
lines of circumvallation were thrown up around us;
and that therefore the moment was arrived when
it was incumbent upon the Government to a all
upon every description of subjects in the empire,
to stand forth and display Jolt patriotism, that
valour, and that wisdom, which, I trust, in
the hour of our country's danger, will be ever
found to belong, to every branch of our poi
Was it not, then, natural for those who felt that dan-
ger, and foresaw its influence. again to appeal to Par-
fitment, and to claim from their hands, at the mo-
m. when the trumpet was sounding for tiattle,
that confidence and that trust which could send
them to the contest with every stimulus to loyalty,
and an iinpelling zeal for national success? Even
v.ns the determination to press the claim intrinsi-
cally wrong, surely this House will be slow to con-
demn nil action originating iu such patriotic senti-
ments, :1101 in so laudable a source. But. my
there was another motive, powerful in its
operatiou, which induced the petitioners to ap-
proach the Legislature at this period. It Lad ben

SATURDAY. MAY 28, lboB.

the unfortunut,lstate of Ireland to hove been here-

talon: divided by religious animosities, and to be
exasivenitcst by the rancours which the existence of
such prejudices have in all ages produced. Such
a state of things could not hat aggravate the diffi-
culties which stood in the way of concession. it

was to be apprehended, that in your endeavours to
redress the grieVlinreal of those on whom disabili-
ties were imposes!, you would run dui risque
of alienating the favoured party, whose couse-
ektietwe and pls.:indices were supported Oil exclusion.
This wits a case of (difficulty, of no ordinary de-
scription ; and though, according to the immutable.
prinCiples of right, justice ought to be admi-
ni.dcred, and men entitled to their rights ought to
be put in possession of them, still there was this
considenition of expediency, that the conciliation
of the one might and would produce the hostility
of the other. Fortunately for Irel.usd, fortonutely
for the best interests of the empire, this difficulty

. -
is removed; and partyll'orn the sense of publidi:
danger, which all classes feel, partly from that

preeept of w;:.tom which enjoins men to merge
trivial apprehensions in great sources of danger
and alarm, and, in a great degree, from the gra-
dual, though slow pmgress of the human mind,
in liberality and -frankness, the Catholics of Ire-

land saw, that they were not now as they were
heretofore, likely to be obstructed is the pro-
secution of their claims for redress by the ani-
mosities of their Protestaut Countrymen. They
perceived that these very persons, whose opposition
they before experienced, and the security of whose
establishment was made the pretext for Catholic
depression, were now not only willing to forego
their oppositio r, but were most prominent in com-
ing forward with declarations, that they did believe,
as well fur the safety of the empire and the secu-
rity of the Protestant Establishment, it was most
advisable and most necessary to admit their Catho-

lie fellow suldects into a full participation of this
blessings and benefits of the British Constitution.
Under such circumstances, the Petitioners appear
before your Lordships. with a request, not alone
necessary to their interests, but recommended by
the voice of their whole Protestant brethren, as

absolutely vital to the security of their establish-
me,nt. In such a point of view, even were they
dismissed from your Lordships' bar, they would
retire with the gratifying consciousness of hav-
ing produced to their country, even from the
discussion, great and incalculable advantages.
I mean, my Lords, to move fer a Committee to take
into consideration this Petition, as I think the
prayer of it may, with advantage to the empire, be
conceded immediately, and to its full extent ; but
even if it were not proper to do so, it will give an
opportunity of entering into the detail of all the
grounds upon which it rests, and to aseertaiu who-
iher or not it may be proper to comply with it par-
tially. By doing so it may also be determined with
what meesorts it aught to be accompanied, iu order
to afford effectual security to our establishment iii
Church and State, which establishment lam con-
fident these petitioners have no desire to weaken ;
bnt, on the contrary, are animated with an ardent
desire to maintain and support. My Lords, it has
often been doubted, during the course of the dis-
cussions of this question, by the advocates of those
restrictive laws upon this class of the community,
whether, by the bare passing of such an Act all the
dangers of Ireland are at once to be removed, and
a period of prosperity is at once to commence;
but, I trust, that the question has never been urged
nor supported upon such unfounded and unrea-
sonable expectations. It will, in every case, be
found, my Lords, that the mischiefs of persecution
must loci .T survive the laws which authorised them;
and that it is much more easy to express disap-
probation, or cease to act upon a system long es-
tablished, than to hope, that by such a determi-
nation you will immediately remove all the evil
consequences and mischief's to which it has given
rise. I have never looked at the ream' of these
restrictions but as a matter which ought to be
ac-
compaui.d with some other provisions, for the colts-
' piste protection of your civil and religions esta-
blishment. In former debates upon this important
juestion, some reference has been made to the opi-
uious of • person of whom I never speak bat with
respect and veneration. I mean the opinions of Mr.
Pitt upon this subject. It is well known, that he
never proposed the . removal of these restrictions,
unaccompanied with checks and protections for the
civil government of the kingdom. I never, my
Lords, entertained an opinion upon the subject,
thut was not only in perfect consonance with
his opinion, but that was not formed by our ma-
mma communication with each other; and at
the period of tba Union, when it was his inten-
tion to bring this matter forward, 1 was com-
pletely apprised of his sentiments regarding
it. Undoubtedly I must do him the justice to
say, that the measure of a total removal from all
the remaining restrictions im upon the Ca-
tholics of Ireland, was in ed by hini to form
but one part of an extensive system which he
meant to provide for the interest, happiness, safety,
and prosperity of Ireland. It is proper, my Lords,
that yon should know what was the nature of that
system of regulations intended to be adopted by
that lamented individual, and it is desirable that
you go into this Committee, in order that every
individual may see the propriety of following
up, to the full extent, the measures intended
by that great man ; and 1 feel convinced that
th.ere is not one person of Great Britain oe
Ireland who would entertain a different senti-
ment upon the subject. My Lords, his idea
was, that it would be necessary to take a dis-
tinct and detailed view of the real situation
of Ireland, in all its various branches and beer-
ings ; to look to its general establishment, in
order to render the measure to be adopted
more complete, and more fit to attain tht ob-
ject in flew, than it could Le by allowing other
:netters to remain in their ii _sent situation.—

these benefices ue church is annexed, arid *great
majority of them have uo glebe-houses ler the clime
gymen to reticle io. This, therefore, is a part at
the subject, s 4 hich, in a Committee, you will natu-
rally thiuk necessary to be inquired into, and Male
remedy suggested. You will also deem it miu...
site to look to the state of the Cutholic Church, at

the period when you do away the restrictions allud-
ed to; cud I ►peak, my Lords, of this,part of ti e
subject with the more satisfaction and pleasure, as
the very ideas that were then io contemplation, of
giving to the Crown the cootroul over those persona
more rit.ticuloirly entrusted with the care oft C`a•
tholic Church, as fully as is done in resardAto the•
Protestant Church, have been actually in part car-
ried into execution. I never did entertain a.doubt

that the gond sense of the Catholics of Ireland,
that their a"t•lotiaar, and desire to meth their defe-
rence and submission to the Constitutiosi, tittle

wish to ctiltivate as intimate a Union as possil,l,
and to place their tlertitlf.m* upon the Clever! .

ment of the country, would induce them to erg -
sent to any reasonable proposal made to theta op.'s,
that subject, so BA to remove any difficulties
might exist. Upon a former occsii.n, you will
member, much was said upon the subject of t!:e
hierarchy of Ireland: and that a great deal of

alarm was raised, (and it perhaps wars% th•:n neces-
sary), all to the nature of the authority that ex-
ercised by the Catholic Bishops in Ireland:
never, my Lords, lool:ed to the removal tl.r. I'
restraints, from which 1 now wish o:rum to I
breed, nithout an inclination that it ►hould

companied with certain other proriskins. It hat n..w
been emphatically declared, by the CathOlics thee.

,
selves, (and there as every Tease° to believe ; iteai co-,
cere in their declaration) ; that they wilt eV: nee ever"
disposition to place in the hands of 1110 Crown tie(
power of penuittisig any individual to the exercise ef
their religious functions. 1 doubt not but this cor.-
. . . .

aideration will have great weight in your Lordsiipe
winds ; not that lel er entertained ai,2, doubts upon

the subject, nor that if your Lordshipsinid go:?. john
the discussion, I would have hesitated to hale*
brought it forward as an object of conciliation iu
Ireland, but because 1 knew that great doubts bad
existed in the minds of the public, as to wheat
these concessions were to be made to the Catholics
without the possibility of Government reservin&
this wished-for ensttoul over those who were at the
head of their Church. Such a statement has
now been made' as will remove all dubiety
from your Lordships minds, and from then e
of the public, upon this particular ;iet of the
subject. Another point will fall to be considered
in the Connnittee, I mean the situation of the
superior as well as the inferior Roman Catholic.'
Clergy in Ireland. You will not, my Lords, have
discharged your duty. in looking to this great .
question, in all its various details, unless you will
have provided a decent subsistence (fns no more is
required) for those who exercise the functions cf
the Catholic Religion, to a body of people, not 1r 111
than three millions, sod who are dependent for
bread upon the lowest and poorest persons of that
persuasion. This was one of the other objects
suggested in the mind of that great man of
whom I have already spoken, as a check against
any danger to be apprehended trout a relaxation cf
those laws they complained of ; end I think it is
one that could, with your Lordships, meet with no
difficulty, if you went into such a Committee as I
now propose. You would then have the oppor-
tunity of further investigating a subject already
much discussed-1 mean that which relates to the
oath of supremacy. It has here doubted whetist
or not the Catholics withdrew any of that allegiance
which the subjects of this kingdom ewe to their
Sovereign, by their submitting in some degree to
the controul of a foreign power ? 1 inn convinced
that they are as completely subjects of the British
empire, as any of those persons can, or ought to be,
who are of other religious persuasions. Ism fully
persuaded, that when that matter comes to be in-
vestigated by your Lordships, you will perceive
that the opinion which has hitherto been enter-
tained its to the supremacy Of the Pope, whether
right or wrong, is, with respect to its op.:ration as
to any measure of Government, whether is the au-
thority of the state, or the obedience of the sub-
ject, merely speculative. It merely relates to the
religious opinions of those Catholics, anti does east
ititerfere, in any one particular, either directly or
indirecty, with that tempodal Sovereignty which
exists in the Government of this country. There
can be no doubt that they do not acknowledge any
spiritual supremacy in the King, as was the case in
the days of limey the Eighth, a man who enter-
tained the most vain and extravagant fancies. In
*lst sense the spiritual supremacy of the Ring is
disclaimed, although he be still acknowledged as
the head of the Chuich in matters of Government.
This is the same Sort of supreinucy that is acknow-
ledged by your Lordships. It is not only the doc-
trine of the Church of Rome, but. is 'also the
doctrine of the two established Churches of
Great Britain. In Scotland, so far from its
ever hating been admitted to the extent claimed
by Henry the Eighth, the people of that country
do, iu no sense whatever, acknowledge* tempo-
ral power to he the bead of their established
Church. I state this, my Lords, in order that ynu
may see upon what subtle sod nice distinction
those differences in matters of opinion may tuns.—
Persons may consistently, with an entire and
sided allegiance, hold that faith which is held by
the Catholics. Upon this point, however, 1 shOnld
be desirous that your Lordships should not rest
merely upon argument, but that you should, by
entertaining and investigating those doubts which
yon may now payees, enter more minutely
into the subjects and adopt those Illet1411:CO
which will tend to the security of envier end good go-
vernment. lins was another 0: the objets iu view at

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PRICE SITIVESCE.

There are at present upwards of eOOO parishes
Ireland, which are consolidated into little more th *
1000 ben^fi"ee, mud even to a great number

4i*,;;*q

• •
•
She time of the Union.% lien it was iidendeal to ftring
forward the discussion o< *these restraints, and to
prescribe to persons of that ;Inscription, differing
from you in religious faith, such a form of words
in the oath to be used by them, as might be deemed
necessary to secure temporal government mid
temporal obedience to a temporal 'Prince. Ou
• this subject I not only speak of what the Catho-
lics are likely to do, but I also say that their decla-
rations, and the oaths of allegiance which they here
been in the practice of taking to the Government,
are such as ought not to leave any dubiety iu the
mind of any wan, that they are ready to conic for-
ward and pay the most complete and unqualified
temporal obedience to the State. Whilst I say
this, it is not for the purpose of adding secu-
rity where there is no delimit, or doubting tali-
giance already demonstrated; but for the purs
pose of removing all jealousy, doubt, mid ap-
prehension, iu the minds of others. It is upon
these grounds that I ant anxious such a form
of words should. be devised, as to go fitirly and
distinctly to such objects only as relate to ten-
*NO obedience to temporal Princes. The advau-
tap, that would result from your Lordships going
into a Committee, would be, that you oould have
.• a full opportunity of considering, not merely the
propriety of removing those restraints which at
present exist, but alas of discussing all those pre-
cautionary measures that ought to be adopted, in
order to secure the good Government of the Ca-
tholic Church, and in order that the Catholics
should not, in any possible case,be apprehended to
be in hostility against your Government, or to en-
danger, in the slightest degree, the security of the
State. These arc measures, which, if they cam be
adopted, ought to be put in execution. Every
man knows how much the present system of tythes
in Ireland proves au oisstaele to the peace and
happiness of the people of that country. There is
no ose who is particularly acquainted with Ire-
land, and with this subject, whq does not
know that it would be a matter of. difficulty
to propose any satisfactory regulation on that
subject. to ptirson would look to it, but
with that respect due at all times to the private
property and profit of the subject ; for rashly
to interfere with that, would be to shake
the pillars of your own security, the peace and hap-
piness of the people, and like welfare of the stete.—
That measure also eannot undoubtedly' be exclud-
ed from the consideration of those who mean to
provide for the happiness of so large a mass of the
population of these kingdoms; and it was a matter
which was uot excluded from the consideration of
those who originally planned the relaxation of
the restrictive laws regarding Ireland. I have,
my Lords, stated every thing that can accom-
pony the consideration of the first measure ; I
know of no other restriction or qualification that
can be deemed requisite for me at present to touch
upon ; and I am persuaded none existed in the
minds of other*, as I am convinced they would not
have concealed them from me. If, hOwever, any
such have been communicated to others, all I beg
of them is, that they also would state them with the
same opeimess and fairness which I hare done; for
I am confident, that every fact well deserves the
consideration of Parliaineat, when directed to the
peace and halipiness of the country. I have not
made any particular reference to the memory of
any individual, hut merely in so far as his opinions
come ided with my own, and because they thereby
come more 'strongly recommended for the public
interest. These are the grounds,nly Lords on which
it is my intention to li:otiose rather your going into
a Committee, than to do that which I have no hesi-
tation in confessing 1 would wish you to do, T mean,
the declaring at once, that these restraints upon
tbeCatholies of Ireland ought not to exist. In de-
daring this opinion, however, I at the same time
think I would not be doing justice to a subject of
such importance, if, after laying down the princi-
, pal grounds for its adoption, I did not trouble
your Lordships once more with a review and exa-
mination of some of the principal objections raised
against the possibility of such events taking place,
consistently with the safety mid security of the
country. The great object, my Lords which I
have at present in view is, that you should not be
led into the belief that the state of Ireland is
etch, that it cannot safely be left in its pre;
sent predicament. It is in order to vii.rurce
that truth upon your minds, and to obtain your
own authority regarding it, that I am anxious to
induce your Lordships to go into a Committee.
Undoubtedly I feel much less anxiety as to the
particular measure in question being all at once
or suddenly adopted, than that your Lordships
should shew to that large body of His Majesty's
subjects, practical hopes and expectations that
you are occupied in the consideration of what will
really at some period or other trod to afford them
relief, and remove from their minds any such
ideas or fatal notions as those that have formerly
been entertained ; that you were, on the contrary,
to draw lines of perpetual exclusion between them
soul the other subjects of the realm. If you should
even come to the resolution of relaxing, at some
time or other, any or all of those restraints, touch,
I confess, would be done towards the great oh..
ject of reconciling them to their present fate, and
promoting harmony in that distracted part of the
country. These mid many other beneficial conse-
quences, would, I say, result, if they were only
practically confirmed, that your Lordships are
occupied in concerting measures for their future
relief, or considering what you can possibly do
for their present advantage, and how far vo •
can practically go, without exciting animosities
in the minds of others. ‘Vhat I chiefly wish is,
to ascertain how far it is practicable to arrive
at puttiug theirs in that state in which all the
subjects of His Majesty's realm have but. one
feeling, one determined wish to reset any attempt
of a foreign power to shake those rights which they
ought all equally to enjoy from our glorious con-
stitution. It it should he the jud...,tnecit and deter-
mination of your Lordships, rather to apply your-
selves in such a Committee to a partial consider-
ation of the objects I have stated, that' to a gene-
ral °De, all that 1 desire is, that in it the same
spirit of moderation. the same temper and tOrhear-
mice. the same wish to conceal it, should-be adhered
to on all sides of this Howse, ea formerly disti ugaish-
ad discussions Of a light nature, and which, I hope,
will, and I think is likely to mark it upon the pre-
went occasion. Undoubtedly, my Lords, I should

not be doing justice to tny own opinions, (what-
ever may he my wishes upon the subject) if, upon
any occasion, where I had an opportunity of re-
pasting them, 1 did nut state that my owl' jiidg,-
anent, confirmed by repeated reflection up6ii the
subject, my clear and coufirmed opinion, vs, that
you cannot immediutidy, with propriety, remove
all at once the whole constraints or civil disabili-
ties, under which the Catholics at present labour,
and place them in the same situation, iu regard to
the enjoyment and exercise of civil rights, and ca-
pability of civil appointments, with their Protestant
brethren. The grounds of that opinion are really
so obvious, that I feel some hesitation and difficulty
iu tiring your Lordships with a repetition of mat-
ters so often repeated here and elsewhere. The
various events which more than a year has em-
braced, are yet fresh in your Lordship,' recol-
lection. SVe are placed, my Lords, in a state. is
which, perhaps, no country was ever placed be-
fore; since the commetweinent of utilized society,
no instance has ever occurred of such an awful
combination of powers, eudangeiing the existence
of our country, notwithstaiming our immense
means of defence. A people who have so much to
lose, must undoubtedly have dangers equally great
to encounter. There never has been a period, since
the lint establishment of the monarchy, when, what-
ever hostility existed from a foreign quarter, it was
not counterbalanced by the amity and friendship of
another power qr powers ; but now the whole pow-
• er, means, and strength, are all got into one hand ;
all that immense mass of force is collected toge-
ther into one central point, and directed against
the vital interests of this country. There never was,
I say, a moment in which any combination of seve-
ral powers together was able to bring against
you a force to such an extent as that single
power, which is at present formed upon the Conti-
tient. Wbatthen, my Lords, will lie theconsequence
of jarring interests mina difference of opinions, if that
power, which is now sent oat under the contralti
of one man, be directing itself to the subversion
doer empire ? 1 inn sure, my Lords, that the
whole course of my life will sufficiently vindicate
me from the imputation of wishing to excite any
desponding idea, or of desiring to promote any
other than that of the increased necessity of avail-
ing yourselves ef all the wieslous, courage, and re-
sources of your country. That—that I call upon
you sod.. What I ask of you is, when you are so
dreadfully threatened without, to endeavour to be
in union and harmony within. When you are called
upon to avoid dangers so great, do not add to those
dangers, perils that can have no existence but by
your own promptitude or negligence in the adoption
of conciliating measures. The policy of such a re-
solution is so obvious, uniting in a moment the dan-
cmrs to be apprehended from the enemy without,
.ind the mode of resisting that enemy; by conden-
sing your power within, when threatened with fs.
reign invasion, that it would be wasting your Lord-
ships' time to enlarge upon a point which it is im-
possible to deny. .Wbeo you confess that the dan-
ger exists, you must at the same time sicknowledge.
that the most proper means of counteracting it
are those of uniting and consolidating your own
people as one man, so as to bring every thing
that the eountry can produce to repel such
a danger; the mere especially when it is doubt-
ful whether even all that you can collect will
be sufficient. Must it then be said, even while we
confess the necessity of this union, that there is
in the measures we propose any obstacle of suffi-
cient magnitude to interfere with that necessity?
It can be nothing more than merely a departure
from some ancient theories, a derilectiou of some
old he bits, to which we have been long accustomed,
and a false and erroneous supposition that the
dangers within would tend to counteract the dan-
gers without. These alone ran be the reasons
that will not allow you to unite all your
force against the strength of France. In for-
mer times, when these exclusive systems were
first established. 1 am ready to own that there was
a danger that might induce you to think such a
mode of reasoning was right; but you must remem-
ber, my Lords, that there existed, at that time, a
body of men whose inclination disposed them to
eouneet themselves with the cause of your enemy ;
berate's., from the very events that had ,thee taken
place iii the country, it was natural to suppose, that
every main, who had professed the Catholic religion,
deemed another Sovereign the lawful heir to the
throne. Does any mail believe that this is the
CRAW now ? 13 it possible that your Lordihips can
think, that there can arise any individual who will
be bold enough to say, that that family. which now
inherits the throne, can be set aside, in order to
give way to the rights of a Pretender? Does any
titan believe, that there can arise an individual,
throughout the whole kingdom, who dare to raise
his voice or arm in favour of the cease of another
Sovereign P No, my Lords ; no such thing ; no
man entertains any idea hostile to that security
which your ancestors formerly judged it convenient
to provide for. They presumed the imagined
partisans of the House of Stuart are now given up
to you by something more than the security of
human laws. You have only to relax in those lines
of distinction that you thought it necessary to draw
between one portion of Did Majesty's subjects
and another ; you hate only to withdraw those
measures of restriction, which were then thought
necessary to provide against real, but can now
only be continued against imaginary dangers.—
If these laws passed solely upon the ground of
real necessity ; that necessity being done away,
they now cannot he justified upon any other
-round whatever. If those laws ran now no longer
be entertained upon former grounds and dangers,
which thry 'a ere calculated to guard against,
does there exist any danger of another de-
le:notion ? In what is thin danger to be found ?
We here heard upou former occasions some general
prineiples Getiles!, it was said, upon eternal
truth ; principles to he allowed in regard to every
Covernment, and upon no occasion to be departed
from. You have been told that the Sovereign of
the cotietrs should be of the same religion with his
subjects, and that the act of settlement was passed
ill order to effect that object. It mast be recol-
lected, however, that at the time that Act was pass-
ed, the religion of the Sovereign was not
exactly that of the Church of Eugland.—
The provision in that Act is not positive, but
negative ; as it is only provided that he shall not
be a member of that particular Church, which

was at that time hostile to the state. Perhaps
it would be-deemed right that that provinou should
continue, as no udvatitage could arise from its re-
laxation. No grieviugs. no coinplaiuts, have origi-
nated from it, but, on the contrary. great helmets
have been derived. But if the law can tic maiutaiu-
ed in its strict letter, let it be earned no fur-
ther. Ou what position is the ink-ream drawn
from it to be maintained ? I thick it right that
the Sovereign should be of the religion of the state;
but how does it thence follow, that it is necessary
to exclude from Parliament all persons that are not
of that religion ? Ou what principle is it, that
j every individual that is called upou to vote in Pai-
-1 liatuent, or to support a trust under Government,
who entertain religious opinions different from
those of the lawful Sovereign, must necessarily be
thought desirous of contributing to the overthrow
of this country ? I know of no such doctrine hay-
ring prevai.ed in practice, however much it may
have been iiiculcuted in theory. On the contrary,
the principles delivered in that bock, which is the
law and doctrine of charity, will lead to persuade
every man to act in such situations u hiscouscieuce
dictates. If this position be sot t rue in principle, how
is it to be maintained iu practice ? Has it ever re-
gulated the conduct of any state or country ? My
Lords, you till know that those mum with which
history is most familiar, will at once prove dm
falsehood of such doctrines. It was said that France
was not the worst Government. bechme, although
a Catholic country, it was governed by a Protestant
Minister. You know that our own revolution was,
in fact, produced iu the presence of an army, and
of that very army, with which your great deliverer
landed in this country, to free the people
from the tyranny of the Popish establishment.•in
opposition to the then prevailing opinions. the ma-
jonty was composed of Catholic soldiers. These
were entrusted with a duty which they faithfully
discharged. Such was Ate effect produced by
placing confidence in men of the Catholic persua-
sion, who had discharged the duty they had to
perform. I have already reminded you, that you
have not (me religious establishment but two in this
island. You do admit into the Parliament of the
country many representatives, both io this Hume
and the other, coming from a part of the country
where the establiihed religion is not that of the
melts ; and yet I asked you formerly, as I now ask
you again,. at what time any danger has existed to
the establishment of the church et Engl ar.d,from the
admission of those of the Church of Scotland, not
only into Parliament, but into every civil and mili-
tary office in the country? Many amongst you must
still remember how soon all the most considerable
offices in the country were tilled with individuals
from the northern part of the kingdom; even the
Woolsack, the Courts of Justice, every branch of
the army and navy ; greatly to the honour of that
part of the country, inhabited by those not pro-
fessing the religion of the Church of England, but
a religion which in former periods waged the/lust
destructive contest against it. Look at the history
of the Church of Scotland, and you will recognize
the hatred of the Presbyterians against the Church
of England, and that it was at one time attempted
to be introduced instead of the other. There was
more rancour and animosity existing between the
people of the Church of Scotland and that of Eng-
land, than ever existed between any two countries.
Hew is the case now changed ? You have now very
• largely admitted those of the Scotch Church into
both Houses of Parliament, and you admit them to
the enjoyment of every civilaud military office; and
have you not seen that there is a disposition
warmly to support each other ? Now, my Lords,
I say, therefore, that your principle, if it could at
all be applied in say case, might be applied in re-
gard to Scotland ; but you find it has not been so.
This being the case, how can you apply or follow
up your own principles, in regard to the Ca-
tholics• of Ireland? Accordiug to your own
doctrine, we ought not to admit them into any
situation in which they could be 'apposed likely
to do injury to the Established Religion of
the country, or to the Government of it. If
this be true, then why have you thought it
proper .te admit them into a share of the attain
of Suite.? Why have yon permitted them to
be the constituent body of the Legislature ?
Why have you permitted them to send Repre-
sentatives to Parliament ? If it be true, that it
is improper to put them into situatious where
they could lend assistance to any hostility against
the State, why have you acted on a contrary prin-
ciple ? Your own conduct ['hews; that your prin-
ciple never /MS, and pever can be true. The
only sound principle thet can be stated upon the
subject is this : the ohjekt of society is to provide
for the happiness of All, and in so doing, you
are to restrain none, but act in a manner that
is consistent with the general welfare. If you
think it necessary to restrain one religious sea
from the tiovemnient, then, upon the same
priiivip!e, ought yon to restrain every other one, so
as to impose the same restraints upon all. I ask
you, upon whet principle you think the professors
of the Catholic religion in Ireland are fit subjects of
such restraints ? or if they were mice so, what now
can induce tie legislature to continue them ? You
are now nu more jiistitied in continuing these re-
straints, after the necessity does not exist, than you
would hove been in withholding them when it did.
I do not believe that it can any longer be necessary
to think, that the Catholics do not believe in the
obligation of an oath, yet that is one of the grounds
upon which, it is said, it would be daseterous to ad-
mit them to power. ho that view it would not wily
be dangerous in the executive or constituent
power, but it would even be dangerous to admit
them into the society of wankied. Would it mot
be dangerous to live in a country, where three
millions of men could be found, so perverted, as
that they will not believe in oaths ? Nlhat ground
is there for this gross imputation upon the
Catholics ? In the first place, to prove that the
imputation is ill-founded, I will not yippeel
to their advocates, or those who wish to plead their
cause, hut to those only who asperse them, e ho.
placed them under those restraints, and elm still
think it necessary to continue theta, assinnine an
imaginary danger which the laws amply provide
against. If in one single instance they could trifle
with the solemn obligation of an oath, what pre-
vents them, et this hour, from despising; our rept la-
tionsso nil walking into this 'loose and claim:lit a seat.
They are excluded from either House only bt tli. it

conscientious regard to solemnthesethanby r autLptlit;nijttiih,,i.lo:
It is impossible to vise any better menus Ci guard
against
esolarsttulhaeunytre.hsl7tgoproffitodtbidlieigiullgteriforon'
from such
an oath. 1 argttl
which cannot with justice exist any of you
Lordships' minds, as to call upon you tc ulpt.
what grounds you base already dismissed such-.
prehension. If the Catholics do believe in 4a
oath, the law is unjust; if they do not
lieve in it, then the law is nugatory, or anew.
than nugatory, as it is ineffectual. If the din,
ger be visionary, then the law provides no se.'
wady, as there is then no necessity for any bear
provided. My Lords, the next polut is, that it
s
alleged the Catholics hold such tenets as alie
peculiar to themselves, and incompatible with t
safety of the state. These tenets are allege t. d
be, that it is lawful for the Pope to depose soj-,).
reigns,and that, actuated by motives different hea-
then interests, any portico of Catholics cisnld
drawn from their allegiance, and think it no
to murder the Sovereign of the country.
not be aerial( an insult to your undentei.e.;,
wefeve the op t 4"
argue,
of n this
dispro t who sited ote
any such conduct or belief to the Catholic*?
The very confession of faith of persons pc!:,.
licly professing any religion ; and much more,
persons who, by professing their religion, su
ject them to incouveniencies, lead us to supp.
that they act justly, so lung as they pro! •
to he religious. It s impossisolt to hear a Rea
professing himself to be a Catholic, without 'Li'
posing that he is what he professes himself to ter,
• the Catholics, who have lieu so grossly therxed,
in pdblications, have done all that was possible
' order to disclaim such doctrines and such print'.
plea. They are desirous of vindicating tbemseirt.
from such infamous charges, which they deem
consistent with any religion whatever. These s
Ireland have had recourse Not only to the doctrii
and opinions of those of their own Church, hut al
to thooe of other countries; and your Looishijs
know, that the unanimous confessions of every 04
of them have been disclaiming those charges arit4
iudignatiopeand expressing their astoaiehment the
any person could entertain such opinions. Not
only this, but if your Lordships dwell upon the
authority of the Church of Rome, you hest the
dtelsnaiou of the Papal See itself. hi 1791 yue
bad the declaration of the Papal See, dieclaisniii,
in terms of equal indignation, any opinions of that
description. If these difficulties be-then removed,
what remains to be contended or argued agoitist
them? These remains the Oath of Suprema(
1 have already stated to you sense observations iipos
that autos-et, and it is therefore unnecessary to go
into a • to investigation of it. They have Lets
uniform in declaring, that they understood the St.
premacy of the Pope to consist purely in a sp.
ritual sense, and are desirous that it should ex-
clude every thing that can interfere with the
civil government of the country. Is it a matter
that interferes with the civil and temporal Co-
vernment of the realm, because something 100
been said in order. to connect it with a soit 4
jurisdiction exercised by the Pastors and Bishops of
that Church ? if you mean to tolerate the Epie
copal Church, that Church must have Bishops,
and upon the same ground must the Catholic
Chuck here E:shops also. Yet there have not biro
wanting persons who have had a disposition to to.
lerate the 'Catholic religion, provided it was pis.
Bible not to tole-rate Bishops. It is certain that
that Church, as welt as every other established
Church,must havebishops; they are admitted inEs;•
land, and wherever an episcopal jurisdiction exists
it must lee limited. within the pale of the Church
self. It must tee confined to matters nserely spiritist,
without any interference with the temporal Come
mead of the country. Much has been said as is
the power of excommunication in those Bishops of
the Catholic persuasion, yet what does it imply?
It merely implies thir, that there cannot exist eves
an Episcopal Church, or any body of men, cot.
greAattil together for religious purposes, uuless
tney have the power of excommunicating pence*
whose opinions are inconsistent with the views of
the eovntousiity of that particular persuasion.-•
This must exist in regard to every Church, and eves
if you were to tolerate Mahometanisni ; they tuna
have all the power of seeing that each of the Members
have opinions consistent with their persuasion;
otherwise they trust exclude them ; but it amounts
to nothing more than an exclusion or excomminte
cation of that particular church. It is therefore no
assumption of a power peculiar to the Roniun Ca-
tholics of Ireland, but is one that must exist lu any
body of men assembled together for religious Ivor-
ship. lint it is said that tins practice in 'relate] ex-
tends even to temporal cipusequences.—The poo,:r
of excommunication must in sonic shape exist, even
Lees and shut would be the wish of any sober con-
stivtitions advocate of the Catholic religion ; List
if it be true that that privilege may be abused, re-
strain it by law.-11 it be necessary to suspect die
slispositiou to steel, under the name of religious ax-
conininuicetien, any thiaglike temporal junstlietia
or authority of any description, then I say, apply to
that evil a reinedy, not of a spirituel, but of a tem-
poral
to the atethat
characterp o
part
.t 1,34:
subject
fellow-subjects, I sin sure there are very tor
instances to be found where it has extended beyoal
a spiritual jurisdiction. I have seen a stets
lately 'published to the world, which avers, that I,•
more than two excommunications have occs.r.a
within a series of years. No man can desire t..
more toleration to religion than 1 do, but •
I should wish to limit it strictly as reason Imo iie •
cessity may require. Vs'e are all agreed upon nu:
part of the subject ; and if it introduced he opto".
object than that winch the Catholics hats
view, I am confident it will not be attended elin
any inconveniener. lam not, my Lords, awary
there are uny (Alter o!,jections stated asno.t tr. 4.
Catln.rs.; of inland, li4 *61;1 jig cut of prune.

prote,,eti by them, our any thing to their ,
iiiconbi.tent n ith their allexianee to the reigl:ol7
verck:it of this uulltitry ; tlot tl.!.'e is not, 1 I • 7,

appeal pot to %our LorJ,litp.

ex•w!icr.t. . 7
1 Ull i!

tOtlie e 01 ::11 eountrieg,
there i• 4 hardly u •tate hi Europe It h. r (
have not e.ti •ta..ti for loez period of

ilarpzer brio upprrllt.ii i to 11,•-• (
lon will 6,1.1. tliAt in Ho 1'

iloiiauJ and S .itaerla!ld, ...i..azotti ttw,, 7•*;