The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1825-02-09 00:00:00

THE BR

PRESS;

House has some evidence upon what the projected measure is
founded, from the prosecution of an able and powerful member of
the Association, and because a Grand Jury threw oat the bills
which were sent before them, to support this prosecution, I am at
a loss to know why the Noble Lord should draw such an inference
from the act of the Grand Jury. That prosecution had been mitt.
toted for words spoken in public, and which the Law Offic-rs of
the Crown considered libellous: the Grand Jury ignored the bills,
and of course the case was not sent to triaL From this it was only •
to be inferred that the Grand Jury did not put the same interpre-
tation upon the words alleged to have been spoken as the Law
Officers did, and in consequence there waa no finding. Mr.
O'Connell was accused of having publicly uttered certain express
sions which the Irish Law Officers considered prima facie libel-
lous; the Grand Jury thought that the expressions proved before
them to have been uttered were not libellous now, how did this
proceeding lead to any inference respecting the measure which his
Majesty's Alinisters proposed to submit to Parliament ? In my opi-
nion there is no practice more dangerous to the liberty of the subject
than that of drawing conclusions from particular trials. By the
law of England, the person on trial had the benefit of any doubts
which might arise in the minds both of the Grand any' Petty Juries,
and it would be a groat and most flagitious perversion of justice,
if an individual acquitted by a Jury, should again be brought tbr-
ward and subjected to a second trial upon the same charge. I
should, therefore, always bow to the decision of a Jury upon the
only safe grounds upon which such a decision should be consider-
ed as just, under the particular circumstances, though not perhaps
applicable to any general case. Having said so much with respect
to the prosecution of Mr. O'Connell, as it was alluded to by the
Noble Lord, I may be allowed to add, that the measure to be pro-
posed by his Majesty's Government, is not grounded, on the words
of individuals, but on the general acts of the whole body. It is
impossible to; let this subject pass without remarking that if in-
flammatory speeches have been opade in the Catholic Association,
as conceded by the Noble Lord, there never was a period when
such speeches were so unjustifiable,—they were unjustifiable,
because of the Fs-speedy of the country, and the absence of
distress, for distress it cannot be denied has a moral effect
upon the feelings of individuals. They were unjustifiable oho,
because of the conduct and character of the Government ;
for I would ask the warmest friends of the Catholics to admit,-
1 would call upon those Noble Lords who were most decidedly
opposed to the 'velem under which Ireland was formerly governed to
deny, if they can, that in any country, or at any period. juctice,
equal justice, was more fairly administered to all parties, than by
the present government of Ireland. There never was a period
when Government looked with kinder and more friendly feelings
upon that particular class of persons, of whom the Catholic Asso-
ciation was said to be the organ. In referring to this question,
your Lordships will also have to consider another, which I advert-
ed to in a debate a few evenings ago. I then stated that the Catlin.
lie Association, and those who promoted it, were amongst the
greatest enemies to Ireland. That this Association was a check to
the prosperity of Ireland, that it alarmed persons out of Ireland,
who were inclined to favour the claims of the Catholics ; above all,
that it prevented the flaw of English capital and intelligence, which
was just beginning to direct itself towards Ireland. There can
be no question that it had excited those animosities, which it is the
object of the Governtnent to allay, and has been their constant
endeavour to appease. It is impossible for the Irish Government
to succeed in securing the permanent tranquillity and happiness of
Ireland, unless the Caiholic Association can be put down. If this
Asiociation cannot be put down, you must permit all Associations
to run their course, to excite teelings of bitterness and hostility,
between the several classes of his Majesty's subjects, and destroy
the peace of the country. In respect for the interest of the Catho-
lics themselves, some measure ought to be adopted, as much for
their sake as for any other; the proceedings of the Catholic Asso-
ciation had made it necessary. As to the motion of the Noble
Lord, I believe such a-motion at such a stage was never before
made. When the House knows nothing of the bill, when they
have not heard that it is founded upon any official correspondence,
I can see no grounds whatever for the Noble Lord's motion, and
therefore give it my decided opposition.
Earl GROSVENOR said, he would trouble the Howie with a
few words, in consequence of what had fallen from the Noble
(Liverpool.) It seemed to him that the Noble Earl had
entirely misunderstood the drift of the Noble Marquis's
observations. They arose out of time Speech from the 'throne,
which their Lorships heard, and in the principal part of
which he (Earl Grosvenor) fully concurred. He concurred
on many topics adverted to in the King's Speech t indeed, the only
part which he considered defective was that relating to the Catholic
Association. The Noble Earl had seemed to take it for granted
:hat the Catholic Association were guilty of many monstrous and
horrible offences calculated to disturb the peace of the counter.
The House had no evidence that the proceedings of the Catholic
Association warranted such an inference. The Noble Earl quoted
the case of the Orange Association, but did not seem to recollect
that on that occasion their Lordships had all agreed--on the con-
trary, they were now much divided in opinion. Sonic say, with
the Noble Earl, that the Association is guilty cf all abominations,
others conceive that the speeches of some of the Members had been
violent and intemperate, but that the proceedings of the Associs.
tion are not calculated to produce any serious evil,—whilst many
state, that those proceedings have hitherto produced no mischief,
but, on the contrary. an infinite deal of good. The Noble Earl
would not find the House nnanitnous on this question, as they had
been on that of the Orange Associations. It was not to be
supposed that his Majesty's Ministers had not received sonic com-
munications from tha Irish Government, or that they should come
down to propose a penal enactment upon the general knowledge
attainable by any ordinary individual. He had heard something of
a Declaration of the Catholic Association, but he could perceive
nothing of a seditious nature in that document. He considered the
Catholic Question as one of vital importance; and unless the
Government set this question at rest, it would keep Ireland for
ever in a state of irritation. Was it wonderful that, in endea-
vouring to obtain the opinion of the Catholic body—considering
the warm and generous character of the Irish nation--they should
sometimes speak with less temper and moderation than some
Noble Lords might &aim ? Was it wonderful that in their en-
deavours to obtain the great end in view, the Catholics should
have done something apparently intemperate ? A large proportion
of Protestants in Ireland joined with the Catholics. and were
anxious to promote their views. He believed none were actually ad-
verse to those views but the Orange faction. This faction the
Catholics charged with the spoliation of their property—with re-
taining a bitterness and hostility which affected even their lives.
He did not mean to say that these charges were well founded ; but
sach was the opinion of the Catholic, and was it matter of surprise
that they expressed themselves warmly and indignantly. He
(Earl Grosvenor) was a Protestant, attached to the Established
Church. from conviction as well as profession, yet he would say
to the Catholics persevere—never relax until you have attained
your abct. Earl Grosvenor concluded by supporting the motion
of the Marquis of Lansdown.
Lord HOLLAND said, the argument upon which the Noble
Earl (Liverpool) depended, and which lie urged with the greatest
force was, that the proceeding against the Catholic Association was
not yet regularly before the House. The Noble Earl seemed prodi-
giously pleased, as he recapitulated it frequently in the course of
his speech. In the beginning, however, he had prudently ab.
stained from letting their Lordships know the precise object of his
Noble Friend's motion, nor had lie brought it under the considera-
tion of the !louse, in reference to the proceeding to be proposed by
Government. Their Lordships were told they knew nothing of the
proposed measure; they did know something, however, through the
King's Speech, and he (Lord Holland) conceived the denial of the
information moved for by his Noble Friend, unprecedented, indecent,
and unjust. The Noble Earl had often come down with papers on
which to found laws abridging the liberty of the subject ; he had
come down with abominable green bags, and with volumes of
papers libelling the character of the country ; and yet no man was
heard to say that the Bill was not before the House—that their
Lordship should wait until the Bill came up from the House of
Commons. The Noble Lord had never before said, the pro-
ceedings are not yet before you, you are called upon to do
something, upon the allegation of a great evil, but there
is to be no inquiry." How were they, lie would ask, to
know the character and extent of the ovil ? how to get at
the remedy, if the information desired was withheld ? It
was impossible that their Lordships should not agree to it, if
they considered the object of his Noble Friend's motion. The
Noble Earl said that the present proceeding had a precedent. Ile
(Lord Holland) denied that there was any precedent. The Noble
Earl was fond of precedents. On the occasion of the measure for
the suppression of Orange Societies, he (Lord Holland) had said,
" not content." He took blame to himself for not having more
fully stated his opinions at that dine; but although lie had no
great prediliction for the Associations at whom that measure was
aimed, he had said " not content" because he disapproved of
the principle. It was net true, however, that the measure
was taken up without inquiry. It was urged that it was only
the extension of a law already in force in England, and which
was found effective in that country. Lord Melville. then Mr.
Secretary Dundas, when introducing the measure. said, that after
considering the subject, he had concluded, that as the measure
was 'bona to be useful in England, he thought it would be
equally so in Ireland. lie supposed it was not Intended that
their Lordships should take the King's Speech into considera-
tion ; they must not speculate on any proceedings until they should
be introduced by Ministers. It appeared that the Irish Conven-
tion Act was to be the model for this new penal enactment. Ile
was no great admirer of that law, nor if he desired to make a new
law, would he consult the Irish Statute book for precedents, and
particularly not at the frightful epoch of 17113. In justice to the
Irish Parliament, however, he would say, that the period to which
he had adverted was one of great alarm. It was the time of the
delegates, when there was an intention of actually calling a rival
Parliament at Athlone ; and, in addition to this, it was on the eve
of a foreign war. He was glad to see the Noble Earl, who still
held the Privy Seals (Westmorland), in his place. That Noble
Lord was not particularly squeamish in the measures which he in-
troduced to support Government; nor was he particularly mealy-
niouthed in expressing his indignation at the schemes of the dis-
affected against the Government. But did the Noble lord !nark
out the Convention? Did he advise in the King's Speech that it
should be put down? lie tecommended conciliation and* con.
cession, and the Convention Act stands on the Statute Book
immediately preceding the only act of real concession ever
granted to the Catholics. They were now advised to mark
out the Association as a tit subject for new penal acts. But
how could 'their Lordships decide upon the remedy without suf-
ficient information ? The King's Speech supplied them with
very unsatisfactory information on the subject. He had read the
words which alluded to the Catholic Association many times,but
could nut perceive that any case was made out by those word..
The Speech sets out with a statement of the prosperity of Ireland,
and also of its tranquillity; it then goes on to state that associations
exist, and.recorumentla Parliament to, Institute an inviry, in cram

to apply an adequate remedy. How is the remedy to be got at,
unless Parliament shall have a clear and correct view of the
extent and character of the evil? But what does the Minister
say ? lie says, " Good God 1 it is irregular, it is unparlia-
mentary, to inquire you want to get information before the
11111 comes up." What is the general proceeding in such
cases ? To ask questions of the Judges. But on this par-
ticular question the House was not at liberty to ask questions
el the Judges, but acs immediately to proceed to the re.
medy. At all events, if a penal enactment was necessary. their
! Lordships should not act rashly. If there were sufficient
grounds, there could be no reasons for extraordinary haste;
because Ireland was prosperous and undisturbed, therefore their
Lordships would have ill ticient time for inquiry.-1 Here Lord H.
read the consecutive passages of the King's Speech relating to Ire.
land.—His Lordship resumed—There was nothing of emergency,
no dread of immediate danger. The Speech could not satisfy Par-
liament that any measure was necessary ; nor had the :Minister af-
forded any materials for judging of the nature of the
evil. The passage which relates to Associations incompatible
with the spirit of the Constitution, might as well answer
for the Irish Cabinet, or perhaps for the English, as for
the Catholic Association. The Speech said, " those Asociations
" had adopted proceedings irreconcilable with the spirit of the
Constitution."—Most true; the spirit of the Constitution was,
that a Cabinet should act in concert, or, at least agree, on all ques-
tions of vital interest ; but th • Cabinet was formed out of die.
union and a spi i. of incessant counteraction. It used to be
the custom to take one white sad ot e black man. This was
now carried much further; it was not applied to the Cabi-
net, but to the Movers and Seconders of the Addresses, and
to the passages of the King's Speech. The foolish prosecu-
tions in Ireland were a proof of it. The Irish Crown Law-
yers called out both " Cron' a boo" and " Butler a boo." It was
said the Association would excite animosities. There was nothing
more likely than that such a divided and distracted Cabinet would
perpetuate animosities. The spirit of disunion pervades all their
actions, even to the King's Speech. They hail set out upon the
prilessed principle of giving no triumph to either party, instead of
which they had given a uiumph to both. The new measure. if it
was founded on the Convnuon Act, would probably affbrd a
second triumph to the party which it was intended to aftiet.
He (Lord Hullar.d) affirmed, that when that Act was passed. it
was called an Act to gratify spleen, to distort the most htilliant
perioll of our history, and that it would give power to seditious asso-
ciations, and would enable them to order a man to enter the !louse
of Commons and bid bins take the mace from the Speaker's table.
The Act enacted that none should so debate, save and except the
Knights and Burgesses to serve in the Parliament there assembled
But it did not so save them. The Act then went on to save and
except the House of Convocation, duly and kgally assembled.
When a similar Bill is introduced, it ought to save and except the
Privy Council appointed by his 3lajesty to consider of the affairs
of state. He (Lord Holland) was sorry to detain them longer, con-
sidering the narrow ground on which the question rested. They
had been told to proceed with care till further evidence was before
them—till the remedy came up from the House of Commons. That
would be proper enough, if they were to take for granted, contrary
to uniform usage, that the Act itself was founded in justice. If
the measure did pass. it must he on the plea of necessity ; but he
should be loth to believe that the necessity did exist ; for it would
most certaitily have the effect of abridging. the liberties of that part
of the kingdom where so large a portion of the subjects were
already excluded from the benefits of the Constitution ; hut hewn-
jured them, for the safety of the empire, for the sake of their own
characters, as they would go down to posterity, not to suffer this
proceeding to go forward, as it would, render their duty both pain-
ful and disgusting.
Earl BATHURST said, that from the statement of his Noble
Friend (Lord Liverpool) lie did not at all wish that the proposed
measure should be proceeded in on other information than that
with which every hotly was amply provided. It was on the pub-
lic proceedings of a public body that they were called to adopt
this measure. It had been said In the course of the evening by a
Noble Lord (Grosvenor) that in this measure they could not
reckon on his support, and they did not wish it if he did not grant
it when it would be shown that it was lircessory for the tranquillity
of Ireland that the Association should be put down. His Noble
friend (Lad Liverpool) had said that be would not be drawn
into a discussion of a question relating to the Association, till the
proper time; for it was not then the time to take into consideration
what measures were to be adopted. The Noble Baron had said it
was an Irish measure.

Lord HOLLAND begged to say that it must be a misapprehen-
sion on the pan of the Noble Earl, for he had not said any such
thing.
Earl BATHURST said, the; the facts of the ca-c were, that
the individual who brought this Bill forward was the S..cretary for
Ireland; this he stated, that it might not be considered a: a mea-
sure of the Noble Lord to whom it had been imputed (the Lord
Chancellor). If their Lordships thought further information wss
necessary, they would wait till they saw whether this measure really
did encroach on the liberty of the subject.
Lord GROSVENOR explained.
Lord HOLLAND explained.
The Earl of CARNARVON said, that statements had been
talked of, but they had heard nothing stated; and, when a state-
ment had been called for, it was refused. A Noble Lord had
apologized for having entered so deeply into the subject, when he
(the Earl of Carnarvon) really thought he had only entered
into the exordium of his speech. His Majesty in his Speech
recommended the renewal of the inquiries into the state of
Ireland, and had in the same breath declared that it was
in a flourishing state. The Speech he (the Earl of Car-
narvon) believed to have been composed by the whole of
the Cabinet united : this was visible from the various character
of the Speech : it expressed different sentiments in every para-
graph ; the fact was, each Minister in his turn put in a sentence.
They were called upon to adopt atroog measures on the score of
necessity, but in reality to impose new laws to fetter liberty.
The Address to the Speech was, as usual, an echo, and,
unlike other Speeches, did not pledge them to enter into cir-
cumstances which they might think affected the country; but
' it did pledge them to remedy an evil with which they were not
acquainted ; here they had to wait for information, which had been
freely given on former occasions. It had been said that the ques-
tion was in another place; a Noble Lord (Liverpool) had said he
would not argue in the dark when he himself caused the darkness;
and according to the Noble Lord's theory, they must wait till they
received the promised light front the house of Commons. Was
the preamble of the Bill to be the only informaticut upon which
they were to ran new Acts? Was this to be the light which they
were to receive on the subject ? Were they to be persuaded to say
Content or No: i'ontent to any Bill which the House of Commons
might send up i• Were they not to exercise their ownjudgrnent
lie (the Earl of Carnarvon) believed that, though Ministers might
trifle with the question, it would involve the safety of the empire
at large. The Noble ord had said they. were public proceedings,
and of which they could judge, whilst in the same breath it was
stated that it was not upon general notoriety alone they formed
their opinion, but upon despatches from the Lord Lieutenant;
whilst they must form their opinion from the newspapers. The
'Noble Earl had said that the great danger to Ireland was the per.
feet unanimity of the proceedings. The Government well knew
how to put down a disturbance; they knew the Insurrection Bill
could he easily obtained; in that case they had every paper they
asked for. Ireland was now tranquil, and a great number of his
Majesty's Ministers were unanimous; but they could not now
even afford them a speech ; they tagged a few sentences together,
but carefully shunned all argument. There was not one appeal to
the loyal feelings of the country ; no rallying round the Throne,
&c. which they heard on former occasions. He (the Earl of
Carnarvon) should think he did not do his duty it be did not en.
deavour to obtain that information which Ministers ought to give.
The Ministers objected to the unanimity of the assemblies in
Ireland, and he now hoped that a divided assembly was not about
to contrive an act that might be productive of very extensive
mischief.
The House then divided.—
Contents - - 201 Non-Contents - 42
Majority against the motion . . 22
The House then Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Tuisru,r, Fge. 8.

EQUITABLE LOAN BANKS.
•
Colonel DAVIES obtained leave to bring in a Bill to enable the
Equitable Loan Bank to sue and be sued, and servo notices in the
names of their clerk or secretary.
RA I 1,-ROADS.

Lord STANLEY obtained leave to bring In a Bill for cooking a
rail-road between Liverpool and Manebester.

FIRE INSURANCES.
Mr. DUNDAS presented a petition from the Chamber of Corn.
merce of Edinburgh, against the high rates of insurances against
fire.—Ordered to lie on the table.
INTERCOURSE WITH IRELAND.
Sir J. NEWPORT presented a petition from the Chamber of
Commerce of Waterford, praying for a freer communication be.
tween Englatul and the south of Ireland.—Ordered to lie on the
table.
FRIENDLY SOCIETIES.

Mr. S. COURTNEY presented a petition from an individual,
named Suter, praying an alteration in the laws respecting Friendly
Sodeties.—Ordered to lie on the table.
COALS.

Sir E. KNATCH BULL presented a petition from the Corpo-
ration of Deal against the duty on sea• borne coals.—Ordered to he
on the table.
__

HOUSE AND WINDOW TAX.
Colonel PALMER presented a petition from certain parishes
in the city of Bath, fur a repeal of the House and Window tax.—
Ordered to lie on the table.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL presented a similar petition
from the pariah of St. Peter in the East, in the City of Oxford.—
Ordered to lie on the table.
• REPEAL OF THE USURY LAWS.
3lr.SergeantONSLOW, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill for
the purpose of repealing the laws with regard to Usury, said, that
when he recollected the proceedings upon the subject during the last
Session, when there were 121 for his motion. and only 23 for the
amendment—when he recollected ilie liberal policy contained in
some of the passages of his 3lajesty's Speech, and the manner in
which restrictions had been taken of trade in general, it was
scarcely necessary for him to add, that in no period of his life was
he justified in the expectation of stronger support for the measure
which he was about to propose, for the repeal of thnse laws, for which,
in their origin, there could be no possible foundation either in policy
or law. During the last Menton there was no objection made to the
measure, except one, which was in tact no objection at all _that the


Bill should not pass because some evil consequences might follow.
It was the part of the Legislature to look at the greater and less'
decree of inconvenience, and to enact that measure which carried
with it the greater degree of benefit to the community. There
never was a period where, on account of the state of the money
market, less mischief could be effected by this measure than at pre-
sent. In consequence of the state of that market, the laws respect-
ing usury were at present totally inoperative. The success of his
measure would not throw a burden upon any elms. His object
was, that money, like every other commodity, should find its level.
The Learned Gentivinan niade sonic observations upon the obiec-
tions made to his measure in the course of the last Session, which
were inaudible in the Gallery, and concluded by asking leave to
bring in a Bill for repealing the laws which ptohibit taking certain
interest for money or limiting the rate thereof.
AIL DAVENPORT would oppose the Learned Member's Bill.
It would, fn his opinion, ruin the landed interest.
Mr. J. SMITH regretted there was any intention of opposing
1 the measure. lie did net expect any opposition to it, in co•se-
quence of the triumphant arguments by which the measure was
supported. Ile, for his part, was anxious to declare that be did
not know a sirgle principle more distinct, more clear, or unanswer-
able, than that on which the measure 14' his Learned Friend was
founded. In the event of a division, he hoped his Learned Friend
would not pursue the course adopted by him last Sesston,when, front
• feeling of courtesy, he deferred the c tnsideration of the question,
not once or twice, but for a dozen times. His conduct was no
doubt kind and considerate, hut opposition was the result of his
conciliatory conduct. Ile hoped the Bill, if leave was obtained to
bring it in to-night, would be discussed in • few days, when there .
would be a large attendarce of Alembers; and he was not afraid to
maintain that the opposition of the Learned Gentlemen would be
shown to be founded in mistake.

Mr. CURWEN would oppose the Bill, more especially at the
present moment, when the state of the public mind was such,
that speculations were afloat which it was scarcely credible could be
tolerated by common sense. At such &period, when 168 millions
wen subscribed to these speculations, if the Usury Laws were nut
in existence, he would votelor their enactment.

....
Alr. Sergeant ONSLOW said, the logic of those who opposed
his Bill seemed to be this—that because the money of this country
was carried into foreign countries, where no laws of ours could re-
strain these speculations, we were therefore to keep up these laws,
which caused that of which complain: was made.
The House then divided, and the numbers were—
Ayes- 52
Nuts - 43
Majmity for bringing in the Bill 7
SMALL DEBTS RECOVERY BILL.
Lord A LTHORP would merely say, this was like the Bili
he submitted to the House last year. lie apprehended the isms
of its rejection then to be. because no compensation was allowed for
sinecure offices: then, as now, there was no compensation pro_
posed ; but, as it appeared the general wish that such should be
given, he would feel It his duty, upon the second reading of the
Bill, to submit the matter to a Committee, and ascertain who
should receive compensation, and who should not. The names and
numbers of these individuals should be selected, and they would,
he trusted, be found fewer than was generally supposed. lie would
giant this for the sake of carrying the measure through the House;
and if he did not succeed, he hoped some other Member would. Ha
then moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the more speedy
and easy collecting of small debts in Engla..d and NVales --
Leave given.
BRITISH SUBJECTS IN INDIA.
Mr. HUME said, that as he had estended his motion for •
greater number of years than was at first his object, he would, for
the purpose of seeing how far the Minister would cor.cede to him,
postpone die discussion until Tuesday next.

STATE OF IRELAND.
Lard ALTHORP, in alluding to that part of his Majesty's
Speech which mentioned the inquiry into Ireland, wished to know
when the Committee woula sit upon the subject.
Mr. WYNN said, in reply, it was the intention that the Com-
mittee should resume its labours on Tuesday neat.
COMMITTALS TO THE GAOL OF LONDONDERRY.
Dr. LUSH INGTON. in moving ter the copies of the committals
of two men and their wives to the gaol of Londonderry, said, he had
good reason to think (from all the inquities he could make) that
the important parts of this case were true. In the course of last
year it appeared that two persons, professing the Catholic religion,
were married by a Popish Priest, to two females. members of the
Church of Scotland. Informations upon this subject were laid
before the 3lagistrates, founded upon the violation of the tuarriage
laws in force in Ireland. In consequence of this violation, sum-
monses were issued against all the married parties, and the magis-
trates thought it their duty to commit the husbands and wives to
separate parts of the gaol, and they were kept apart in prison for
several weeks. The warrant under which they were commftad
stated their offence to be an illegal marriage, and the statute which
they violated rendered them liable to three years' imprisonment
without bail or mainprize ; it appeared strange that this Irish law
ettould violate, in the most revolting manner, every principle of
human justice, that, upon an examination in a Court of Justice, a
pollen should be compelled to name the Popish Priest who per-
formed the marriage ceremony ; this, upon the part of the Pfleb!,
was a capnal offence, and if the other party refused to give the ne-
cessary infonuation, he was subject to imprisonment for three
years. This, e yen in that melancholy abstract of the penal cede
consisting of cam tea inflicting injury on the Catholic population,
struck him as one a f the grossest violations of justice ; every clause
of the laws passed at the same time was of a similar construction.
and must prove that weir operation would lead to discontent and
disaffection. The lot a:Anne enacted, that if the Priest keew
either of the parties moseying to be a l'rotestant, he should be sub-
ject to all the penalties. nese acts of vengeance upon the put of
our ancestors were augmented year after year, and by the Bth of
Anne, the Popish Priest who celebrated a marriage in which
either party was a Protestant, sons guilty of a capital offence; but
how was the knowledge of the Viiest proved if either was a Pro-
testant at the time of the marriage' it was allowed, concluded, and
acknowledged, that the Popish Friest celebrating the marriage
knew the party to be Protestants, and was therefore guilty of the
capital offence. In all the disgusting annals of penal codes, either
in England or Ireland, it was impossible to find one containisg a
greater violation of the first principle of justice, namely, that a
person should be presumed innocent until his guilt be proved. In
the 12th of George the First, chap. the third, it was stated, that
clandestine marriages by Popish Priests were the source of incon-
venience and ruin to families. He would call upon Gentkmeu to
observe the preamble of this law. It was not enacted on account
of Its actual necessity, nor because it was called for by any great
and crying evil, but the preamble states the law was passed be-
cause many families suffered inconvenience from these clandestine
marriages. This was contrary to all the principles of legislation ;
and it is upon this Act the Priest is guilty of the felony in question.
The law declared, that when a person was suspected to be married
by a Priest, it was competent to any Justice of the Peace to sum-
mon the party suspected, examine him on oath, and compel hhu
to name the clergyman, and thus the party may be obliged to be-
tray the individual whom he had induced to commit the act. And
if any person refused to name the clergyman who celebrated the
marriage, it was imperative upon the Magistrate to commit that
person tor three years to jail, witetout bail or mainprize. All those
penalties were renewed, and Acts on Acts were linseed, to the 23t
of George the Second. There were down to that period six or seven
Acts upon the same subject; but th,'re was one passed in the year
1793, and by this statute he was led to believe that all these were
abrogated. This law declared and authorized the Catholic subjects
of Ireland to be in a great measure like their fellows, with regard
to offices, and the Popish Priest was no letterer liable to the penalty
of death for the celebration of such marriage as that he had ailed.
ed to; but the marriage was declared vcrA, and the Priest was
liable to a fine of 50111. • but the construction of this law in Irelar.d
may be, that after the tunishment of death, the tine of 5001. was
to be inflicted also. I e was not prepared to say whether this was
the construction or not ; but he was informed it was the opinion of
men possessing high legal knowledge in Ireland, ti: tt by the con-
struction of those laws the Priest was to be hanged airst and fined
afterwards. (Laughter.) He was glad to have it in his power to
state, that when a communication was made to the feint: fiovera-
ment respecting this act of injustice, the parties were liberated:
but it was the bounden duty of the Government to pursue sack
steps and adopt such measures as may prevent the future recur.
renew of such disgraceful proceedings ; it was for this object he
moved for the production of the copies of the committals. He also
1 wished to show the country the state of the laws in regard to the
Catholics. It would be his wish, if it were within his power, to
persuade the House to have those enactments abrogated, and those
anomalies avoided ; more especially at this period, when most unfor-
tunately, in his opinion, a measure wag about to be brought formed
in that House, which must give discontent and dissatisfaction to
the Catholics of Ireland. He would be glad to be an instrument,
however humble, in removing those disabilities and restrictions
under which they labour. It was not good policy to excite or ag-
gravate feelings (Wenger or resentment, especially with regard to
the sacred ceremony of marriage, in which are involved the strong-
est and warmest feelings of the hesrt of man. These restrictions ever
tend to excite hatred against that authority which lays them on. 110
knew of no reason that could justify these restrictions. He never heated
of a reason why six millions of Catholics should hesubjeet to these re-
strictions. This was positive injustice. He would ever conceive it all
act little short of positive injustice, to sacrifice the peace of the
country for the purpose of imposing restrictions on the larger num-
bee. 'the Learned lieutleman concluded by moving that there be
laid before the House copies of the committals in the month of
November, 18'20, of two men of the name of Quoigly. of Anne
Loudon, and of Martha Loudon, to the gaol of the city of London.
derry.
Sir G. HILL would state, that the Magistrates alluded to ly
the Hon. Member who spoke last were not to be excelled as
Magistrates, or as resident Gentlemen, by any individuals what-
ever. In consequence of the share they had in this transaction,
their names were already before the public—they were tried before
I that tribunal now exercisir.g its jurisdiction in Ireland, over every
man who was influenced by a coascientious sense of duty. These
Gentlemen have been arraigned before the Catholic Assoc-tutor:—
they have been reproached and vilified—the severest and handiest
epithets have been lavished upon them—they have been denounced
to the population, and have been held up as objects of venpesnee
by the Popish Parliament. A. to the circumstance to whah the
attention of the House was now called, the facts were—that a
Priest had displayed considerable activity in celebrating marriages
1 between the Catholic males and Protestant women, which caused
great uneasiness. (Hear. hear.) lie gave no opinion upon ti,e
subject, but such was the fact ; nor did he think this should be
a source of astonishnn when it was recollected that the parents
were Protestants. The name of the Priest who celebrated these
marriages was O'llaherty. The parries who conceived themselves
injured by the conduct of this individual being Presbyterians, ap-
plied to the Presbytery, to see if they could protect themselves by

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Mr. MA RE.
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Mr. BRIG]
in the gallery.
Mr. lIERH
Illegal interest
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I". kaggilng
he s: tunes being made by this body to the Priest,
Ni erronand said he was misled by the view he took
Qt.., taw, which was contined,he thought, to Protestants of the Eats-
b. odd Cburch,snd did not extend to those of the Dissenting Church.
toped he would be forgiven, and gave the strongest assurances
Oa: he would not offend again. Ile had seen a letter (min the
to this effect. lie had, however, • Curate, of the name of
.i.ll,,gan, who, acted in a similar manner, and celebrated some
oath ammageo. At length, upon the 6th of November, when six
.dzosen were performing their duty at the town of Newton 31a.
c.::'jr--( Here the Right Honourable Member mentioned the
names of the six Magistrates, whom he warmly eulogised, not in
osequence of a prejudice in their favour from the friendship lie
coyed with them, but from a conviction that they performed their
,Magistrates, and as resident gentlemen)--the parents
°imolai who were married appeared before these Magistrates to
hue the business investigated, and complained of the conduct of
tyliagan. The Magistrates said, it was a novel affair. The
complainants took an attorney with them, who pointed out the
Act by which those who refused to take the oath required were to
be committed to gaol for three years. The Learned Member
so they were in confinement for a considerable time, and
were liberated by the Irish Government. This was not
.0; they were liberated on the next Sunday. The law,
as it stood on the last enactment, involving a penalty of
ma was considered in Ireland as superseding the other law
stall had been alluded to, and which made the same offence
scspital felony. He had risen purely with a view of defending the
gisgutracy from any unjust imputations, and should sit down
vatted that be had performed his duty to them and to the
House
Hr. J. S3lll'll rose for the purpose of inquiring what was the
otTecsive language used by the Catholic Association, which sub_
,tried that body to a charge of having used threats for the purpose
overawing the Irish Magistracy P True it was, that the Asso-
aims had threatened to prosecute t a e who acted illegally—had
denounced acts of oppression ; but the worthy Baronet had stated
broadly and distinctly, that the Association sought to exercise a
coercive authority over the Irish Magistracy.
Hr. DAWSON could tell the Hon. Gentleman that the APAO•
ration d.d seek to exercise an undue influence over the body of
Nstistrates. He had known individuals who had been un-
tat; nate enough to attract the notice and displeasure of
Associution ; and after they had been denounced by Mr.
O'Connell, and some other demagogues of his party, they
are unable It leave their houses fur tear of being pursued
And persecut dby the Catholic body. The Association was
a power of the must dangerous description ; wherever its baneful
oduence was known to exit d, wherever its destructive principle.
obtained a footin; , it almost immediately followed that the feeling.
of the people bee. m al muted from the properly. .-onstituted autbo.
n es. It had been observed, and with great truth, that there a er.;
suny individuals, who, though inclined to favour the Cathu I
Claims, were demo; dly opposed to the authority of the sasocia ed
body. (Hear, hear.) He did not wish to go into the quest'on
now; but at another dmi should express himself more fully. The
manner in which this q uestion had been brought forward was
highly to be approved there had been no odium rt flected—no in-
diodual named ; and t would be unfair that any should feel
offset- .2 al legal authorities, amongst them land Kilwardt n,
Welt of opinion that the Act of George 111. which imposed a
penalty of 3001. repealed the former Acts. Whatever were the
legal ddinitions of the case, the conduct of the Magistrates must
be considered as perfectly free from blame. His Hon. and Learned
friend had omitted to notice in his detail that Mr. O'llagan, when
he performed the ceremony, bound the women over to secrecy ; bur
when this was discovered O'Hagsn fled the country, instead of
abiding the issue of his trial. A penalty was certainly necessary
to thus offence, and he could not consent to the adoption of any
method which might be proposed that did not contemplate im-
posing a penalty of some description.
Mr. NORTH said, from knowing something of the par.
Scalars of these transactions, he might be excused offering
ary observation. When the consequences of these marriages
were contemplated, the law, as it now stood, rendering them
illegal, the magistrates were fully justified in acting on the
power which the law allowed them. It should be considered,
that the children resulting from connections so formed were !
illegitimate, ar.d the women were subject to desertion, and its
whole train of attendant evils. His Hon. and Learned Friend had
stated, that the two penalties were sometimes enforced—that
offenders were hanged first and fined 5001. afterwards; but this
was a good joke, which, in Ireland at least, had become rather
stale. Ile had known an offer der cequitted because it was sup-
posed that the fine was merged in the felony. He wished it to be
•anderstood, that he delivered no oyinion on the policy of the Act
be reserved any such class of of s ovations for another occasion.
Mr. GRATTAN Maid, as fsr ; s ifs experience went, lie never
knew Ireland more pacifically inchno I than since the formation of
this Association. The country was in a general quiescent state ;
rot the smallest discontent was to he observed. He would take
this opportunity of putting it to Gentlemen, whether it was fair to
involve in what might be advanced those who were not present,
and who were so able, if allowed the opportunity, to meet any ob.
jeetions that might be urged against their opinion? He, forone, had
not anticipated the least diHmosion on this evening.
Dr. LUSH INGTON said, he had not ventured to deliver en
opinion of his own ; he was, however, supported by the doubts
vonich had existed, and the facts which had been produced. Instead
of having heard anything urged against his present proceeding,
thus who considered themselves as opposed to him had made his !
case still stronger, by pointing out the doubts which were said to
mist in Ireland, as to the Acts under consideration. True it was.
that the authorities considered thera elves at liberty to proceed by
common law, or in any other form more convenient. And what
Ira the mode of proceeding sanctioned ? People were induced to
give evidence against the minister' whom they bad encouraged to
offend tie laws. (Hear, hear.) The very means of the offence
became the informer against it. He did not memo to attack the
magistrates; but it was invariably the case, that whenever an in-
quiry vu instituted, involving the intrust of ;ny particular
authority, individuals made it a point of duty to overwhelm the
House with every description of eulogy. What would be the pre-
cise nature of the measure he should propose he did not yet know ;
hot he should endeavour so to put it, as to avoid rendering it open !
to any party objection.
The House then rest:deed itself into a Committee of Supply, and
the Report was ordered to be brought up on Friday.
RECOVERY OF SMALL DEBTS.
Lord AI-THORP', Bill to facilitate the recovery of Small Debts'
in England and Wales, was read a first time, and ordered to be
cad a second time on Friday next.
ASSESSED TAXES.
Mr.3IAFIERLY gave notice that he would move on the 3d a
)larch, for leave to bring in a HiU for the repeal of the Assessed
Tam

_
ST. CATHERINE'S DOCK.
A petition was presented reliving to St. Catherine's Dock, by •
Mother whom we could not dktinguish, and the prayer of which
Ismael l not hear, in consequence of the noise created by Member*
leaving the House.
TOBACCO AND SNUFF.
Mr. H. DAVIS moved for returns of the several quantities of
Eta', tobacco. and cigars imported and exported, and the number
of vessels seized, from the sth of July, 1319, to the sth of Ja.
nnity, 1825 —Granted.
CATHOLIC ASSOCIATION
The Member for Bristol presented a Petition from that place,
!cry numerously signed, which prayed for the suppression of the
Lithulic Association, on the ground that, though friends to reli.
`tour toleration, they wee enemies to factious amociations for the
subversion of political power ; and that the Catholic Association
collected rents, and assumed the functions of Government.
On the question that it be brought up,
Mr. HLT3IE said, be regretted the Petition had not been pre-
sented when there was a fuller attendance of 51embers. He denied
that the Association was a factious body, collected for the subsec-
tion of political institutions.
Mr. BRIGHT spoke • few sentences, which we could not hest
In the gallery.
Mr. HERRIES said • few words relative to the prohibition of
illegal interest, Whitt were also inaudible.
After which, the House adjourned at a few minutes past Six