The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1807-01-17 00:00:00

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principle of his present protedure, in not giving any
information of the nature of his Motion, or the
general object he has ultimately in view."
Mr. PERCEVAL--" I wish to be understood,
as meaning to reserve to myself the determination
of the best shape of bringing the matter forward ;
but I have no hesitation in now stating, that I
propose to enter into the discussion of the merits,
expediency, and adequacy of the Order of the
Council, as applied to the occasion of injuring
Vie enemy's commerce, and counterading the mis-
chievous effect of the measures adopted by that
enemy to affed our own. I think that that Order
does not, in any degree, answer the obje& intended;
and I shall, therefore, propose to Parliament, that
they should express their opinion of the inadequacy
and insufficiency of the measure adopted, in order
that by such an opinion finding its way to His
Majesty's Councils, it may call from them an
ad of greater vigour, from whence some benefit
of retaliation, and some benefit of protedion to
our Commerce, may be more effectually insured, or
be expeCted to he derived. In my opinion, the meat
sure which Ministers have advised His Majesty to
adopt, is not calculated to produce such beneficial
effects as those I have briefly alluded to. Such,
then, is the general outline of what I mean to sug-
gest, but 1 shall not insist upon Wednesday se'n-
night being the day on which I shall bring this
hlotion forward, if the Noble Laid can name one
more convenient."
Viscount HOWICK then observed, that he
thought Thursday se'nnight would be likely to be
most convenient.
This bein assented to, Thursday se'nnight stands
nominated for Mr. Perceval's motion upon this im-
portant sobjed.
PRINTING OF THE ARMY EITIMATES
"

Mr. JOHNSTONE—u Sir, I understand that
the Army Estimates which were presented to the
House last Wednesday, are to be taken into con.
sideration on Wednesday next, but as I deem it
necessary in fulfilling my duty to the public, to
consider minutely the whole particulars of those
Estimates. I think that such a duty cannot be fully
accomplished, unless the whole of the Papers so laid
upon the Table Ise printed for the use of the Mem.
hers. I have beer, told that this has nut been a
usual muje of proceeding ; but, Sir, when we con-
sider alat our Army forms so large a proportion of
Our adlual expenditure ; and as SO Large a proportion
of it is upon this oc,asion for extraordinaries, I
think that what occurred formerly, in regard to the
Ordnance Estimates, chews the propriety of Fub-
licity being gisen to these papers. In all cases
where large g, ants of the public money were to be
paid away, the Members of the House of Com-

mans onght to make themselves as fully as ina.-
sible masters of the sulkie% Upon these };sounds.
therefore, Sir, I move that the Army Estimates,
laid before the House upon the I 4th ir,stant, be
plintrd for the use of the Members of this

The SECRETARY at WAR—" I should hope
# that the Hon. Gent. who has just sat down, would
content himself with lobo% ing kfte precedent of last
year, in printing only the ahoy aft of these Estimates.
In the first place, Si,, the Estimates of the present
year are so extremely voluminous, that I do not
think 'bey could possibly be printed before the tone
fled for their consideration Secondly, it is an
unusual proceeding to print more than the mere ab-
str.a, by which Gentlemen are enabled to refer to the
Estimates themselves; there being only two ifsstances
to the contrary occurring within the present century.
Besides these, there are other reasons for not adopt-
ing Are plan of printing the Army Estimates every
year. hire was a .oka started the other day,
in which a Noble Lord opposite (Lord Castlereagh),
seemed to concur with tl.e Noble Secretary of State,
in admitting, that it was in a certain degree dan-
gerrus, that any thing should be laid before the
public in such arr authentic form, so as to give in-
formation ro the enemy. In this sentiment I concur
also; for although there is in tuft a certain degree
of publicity girt, n to important documents, by being
upon the table of this Houbet yet, it certainly
is it uch greater, if these documents he printed and
dto the world. 'I bey may get into all the
Net:wipers. so that the enemy might derive the
roost an,hentic information, AS to the amount of all
our military Lree, and even the particular stations
of parts ,if it; as for instance, what portion was
destined for the defence of Ireland. As lam con-
vi.rced that all the real purposes of the ii.tormation
of the lLose are answered by the painting of the
alistraft, which is already ordered, I shall be under
iwcessitf of objedthig to the fruition."
Mr. CALURAFT--o Ahlronph the Hon. Gen.
tlernan who has mad_ this Motion, did, on a former
oceAsion, make a charge of improvidence against
the Board to which I belong ; yet, as it has been
truly stated, that on my Motion, two years ago, the
Army Estimates were printed, and not seeing any
difference between the two CAWS, 1 shall, notvrith-
randing his insinuations against me, support the
Motion he Las now made." Here the Right Hon
Gent. entered into a refutation of the charge to
Which he allgieel, which regarded the exportatioo of
son-powder from this country to the island of Cey-
lon, instead of procuring it from the East-Indies,
justifying it its a measure arising from the necessity
and circumstances of the case, but one which was
by no means to be continued.
Mr. SIURGES BOURNE said, that the ob-
jeftion of the Papers being too voluminous to
be. printed, was one of the most urgent rea-
sons for their being so, as it was impossible that
Gentlemen could peruse them by seeing them lie
on the table. A. to the other objeiftictai, of their
communicating information to the enemy, he was
inclined to think that it was not a valid one ; as the
abstrad itself, which was to be printed, communi-
cated that very information in a more concise man-
ner. He could trot help thinking, when he heard
such oh)'-aions started against such a reasonable
proposal, that the changing the side of the Herne
on which some Right Honorable Gentlemen sit,
produces a very material change in their sentiments,
nut only in regard to the printing of papers when
produced, bat in the produltion of them. He never
heard of any mischief originating from the printing of
such papers, and therefore he should support the
Motion.
Lord TEMPLE thought this Motion was only
an indite,' way of putting off the debate upon these
e,tinsat.es. Ii the Opposition really wished to do
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go, tiny ottght to state it openly. It was, in his
°Orion, impossible that they could be printed be-
fore Wednesday.
Mr. ROSE said, he thought they meld be ac:
tually printed and distributed by Monday next.
Viscount HOWICK—" Feeling a Motion of this
kind not absolutely necessary, no insinuation from
the othrr side, as to his changing his opinions with
his seat in the House, would make him say, that on
the present occasion, the printing of those docu-
ments was proper. Two years ago, when new mi-
litary plans were in discussion, such a proposal was
acceded to; but was this the case last year! The
House were then satisfied with the Abstracts mere-
ly ; and he could see no proper reason fur its ,be-
ing otherwise, upon the present oceaston."
Mr. PERCEVAL said, he was very glad to hear
that the Noble Lord was inclined to abide by such
virtue, as not to abandon his opinions, because he
had merely changed his seat in the House. lie was
sure too that the country would rejoice to he.sr it ;
but he must c.oiless, that he saw no reason fur his
Lordship opposing such a measure on the present
occasion, more than cn a former one, when he sup-
ported the Motion of a Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Calcraft) who was so consistent as to adhere to
has original principle and precedent.
Viscount HOMO( said, he defied the Right
Hon. Gentleman, who had just spoken, to show that
by ( Visc,unt Howick) had in the least abandoned
those principles which he formerly maintained when
in opposition. Where, he would ask, was the ne-
cessity in the present instance, as there was in the
former one?
Mr. MONTAGUE approved of the Motion,
and said, it was probable the expend* incurred,
ultimately, to the cousin y, by not printing these do-
cuments, would be infinitely greater than the trifling
expence of printing, as many Members would be
precluded from stating some useful observations or
hints on limiting our expenditure.
Mr. BIDDULPH, who had at first seconded
the Motion, said, that he did so, because he was
convinced it was impossible that he COAL' state his
sentiments upon these documents, without taking
them home with him.

Mr. VANSI (TART urged, that it was impos-
sible they could be printed in time for the discus-
sion on Wednesday, and it was of tie utmost im-
portance, that the House should determine upon
them on that day, as a great pint of the subsistence
of the Army, amounting neatly to a million of 'mo-
ney, became due on Friday.
Lo►d CASTLEREAGH said, that it was an

erroneous idea to suppose that the abstrad of the
Army was less dangerous for publication than the
Estimates themselves. In the Astra°, the ge,szem
of our force was stated under three distill& heads :
viz. Ist. Guards and G.ln lions ; tdly, Forces in
Plantations; and, Sdly, the force arriving in Eng-
land. 1I the enemy were to reap any advantage
from such information, this was surely sufficient.
The SECRE I'ARY at WAR added, that when
he spoke of the information of the enemy, as being
an ol,jettion, he spoke in a certain degree of doubt
as to any injury being likely to arise from these Pa-
pers in particular. There was certainly, indeed, al-
ways a degrte of information communicated abroad,
by the mere discussion of such important subjeas in
the House. There was, indeed, more publicity
given to such matters in LUIS than in any other Go-
vernment.

Mr. JOHNSTONE rose in reply, and said, that
his objea in making this motion was, to become
master of the declared expenditure of the large sum
of money therein stated, not so much with a view
to the debate of Wedoesday, but with a view to as-
certain the general mode adopted by the present
Ministers, as .to the expenditure of the public mo-
ney, not only in our military establishment, but in
ether departments, where there was great roam
for reformation. lie would venture to say,
in answer to the Right Honourable Seere•,
tau, that no information would, by the print-
ing of these papers, be communicated to the enemy,
watch they were not enabled to procure by other
channels of publications. Was it proper then that
the House should be lett in ignorance of a subjett
which so materially concerned the country at large,
merely because Ministers chose to suggest the pro-
priety of our being left in the dark, notwithstanding
their numerous pledges of reform, which they have
so loudly and continually blustered for tl ? He had
no doubt but that, on a minute investigation, it
would be found, that those who had so unilormly
and so perseveringly preached up GS:onomy, have
taken patticular care to grant to therm, Ives new and
extravagant salaries, to mate otlices and various
rxtraordinaries, in►tead of retrencluog from the ex-
penditures which they formerly so much complained
of. It was with that view that he was anxious to
bring forward this stifjed with the utmost perapi-
cuity and exadness.
Viscount HOWICK said, that there appeared
now to be a contrariety in the objens in view.
The Right Hon. Secretary below him oas anxious
to bring forward this soiled on Wednesday, from
die urgency of the occasion ; chile the Hon. Mem-
ber, who spoke Last, seemed only anxious to get an
opportunity to ascertain how for the pledges of die
Administration have been realized, in order that he
might after wards pursue such measures as he might
judge expedient. If snch be the objeA of the
Motion, he should willingly withdraw his opposi-
tion, as he was extremely anxious that all the
measures of the preset.t Government should be
most carefully sifted, and even that that Hon.
Gentleman should have an early oppoitunity of
bringing fm-ward those charges, which he had
insinuated were in his contemplation and power, as
to exorbitant salaries. He should feel it inconvenient
to the country, however, were the discussion upon
the sohjed of these estimates to be postponed on
account of such printing. It was a matter of regret
indeed, that this Mutio was not made when the
estimates were first printed. as Ministers were led
originally to suppose, that all that would be re-
quired was the printing of the abstract. The Hon.
Gentleman had given no notice of his Motion, and
therefore it was irregular; but al he would delay
till he had more fully and deliberately considered
the nature of the abstract, be was cororinced he
would find the general distribution, without the
minute details, fully sufficient for the present oc-
casion. If so, he might make his Motion after.
wards, and the House would proceed to the
uderation of the question without delay.

Mr. P EIiCEVAT. obsesevecl,ttiat if tte T.,tifnwe
were to be printed, he should think there would
be no objeCtion to the House voting, on Wednesday
near, a considerable sum to account, in case they
be .it ready in time.
Mr. WHI [TREAD said, that it was certainly,
at first, his intention to have --77srted the Motion,
had it not been for the impossibility of these documents
being printed in time, for this proposed consides-
ation. At the same lime, lie could not help con-
gratulating the House and the country, that some
of the.lion Gentlemen opposite, had so far changed
their sentiments and proceedings, as to call now thus
loudly for information, although they flrtnerly used
so unilormly to ()Neel to it in all its shapes. lf,
therefore, the Moron was for an ulterior purpose,
there could be no occasion for postponing the con-
sideration of the l'apeis now upon the table, as they
could as well he printed afterveids.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
observed, that nut only the time necessary for print-
ing was to be taken into consideration, but also the
time necessary for the perusal, so that it was wholly
imposssible they could be prepared for the discus-
sion on Wednesday. Since the avowed obje'l of the
motion was for an ulterior purpose, they might be
printed and circulated after that day, there being no
doubt that the abstraet was fully sufficient fur pre-
sent information.

Mr.JOHNSI'ONE then stated, that he was ready
to consent to what had been proposed, but he beg-
ged leave at the same time to state, that it was per.
Italy in order, and consistent with the duty of any
Member, to propose such a motion as the present
one, which he should now, for the reasons stated,
withdraw for the present.
The Motion VIA., accordingly withdrawn; so that
the Army Estimates will be considered on Wed-
nesday nest.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
moved, ". That there be laid before the House, a Re-
turn of the effeaive Number of the Volunteers, from
the first of Jamiary
Mr. C. W. WYNNE, pursuant to his notice
of yesterday, obtained leave to bring in a bill
for continuing the Alt of the 44th of His present
Majesty, enabling the Irish Militia to volunteer
their services in the Regular Army.
Mr. BIDDULPII begged leave to withdraw his
notice of yesterday, respeaing the Abolition of cer-
tain Fees, acc. ; and mentioned. that he should
hereafter name a day for that purpose.
Lori FOLKSTONE presented a Petition on be-
half of the Petitioners against the return of Lord
Paget and Mr. Leycester, for the Borough of Mil-
bourne Port, praying the House to enlarge the time
for the parties entering into recognisance, until
Tuesday next, upon the grounds. that the Speaker's
Order was received until too late to enter into
such recogniaarices.
After tome conversation, upon the impropriety
of the House entertaining a question of this nature,
upon sui.h grounds, between Mr. C. %%Wynne, Mr.
Leycester, Mr. Dickenson, Mr. Poreeval, and Lord
Folkstone,

The SI;EAK ER felt it his duty to observe to
the House, for their information, as well as other
persons concerned, that he did conceive it was only
necessary, when an order was made by that House
upon such subjeas, to have that order carried by
the V. ssei'gers to the Agent in London. From
the nature of the business, and the number of Mes-
senger; belonging to that Hoese, it would be im•
possr le to extend such service beyund those limits ;
it it were otherwise, the same excuse might be made
from all parts of the United Kingdom. And he
willed it to_ be understood, that no ptrson should
he at liberty to say, that the orders of that House
were not properly served.
The question for postponing the time for entering
into recognizancss was then negatived, without a

Sir JOHN NEWPORT presented a Petition on
behalf of the Right Hon. Isaac Corry, pray:l,g
that the time for entering into recognizances upon
the Petition against the return for the Borough of
Newry, might be enlarged until this day three
weeks. The Right Hon. Baronet stated, that the
grounds of this Petition wine, that the usual recog-
nizance* had been transmitted to Ireland, but in
consequence of adverse wind-, they were not as yet
returned.
After a few words from Mr. C.W. WYNNE, against
permuting the receipt of stich Pet•tions, except un-
der special circumstances, the debate upon this sub-
let, was ordered to be postponed until Tuesday
next, upon condition, that the time for reurning
thz recognisance' should be extended Irons that
day.

Mr. STURGES BOURNE presented a similar
Petition from Mr. John Hawkins, the Agent for
certain Eleectors of the City of Dublin, complaining
of the return of the Hight Hon. Henry Grattan,
upon the grounds. that it being necessary to serve
a notice of such Petition upon the Siting Member,
the party had not been able to make such service
upoii Mr. Grattan. as that Right Hon. Gentleman
could not be found, he having no place of resi-
dence in Dublin, nor no Agent in London ; bt4 at
the time the Messenger weut from hence to Dublin,
it was supposed, that Mr. Cirattan hid left Ireland
for this kingdom, and by th it means the Messenger
had missed him. Upon those grounds, he sought
to enlarge the time fur entering into the necessary
recognizance.
'1 he debate upon this question was also post-
poned until Tuesday.
Upon the Motion of Sir JOHN NEWPORT,
the Irish Contested Election Regulation Bill was
read a second tinr, and ordered to be committed
on Tuesday next.
Mr. C. W. ‘V YNNE brought up the Irish Militia
Volunteer Bill, which was read a first time, and or-
dered to be reed a second time on Tuesday next.
Mr. Graham presented at the Bar of the House
the Inspettor of Convias' Return of the state of the
several Conviels upon the River Thames, and at
Poi tsmouth.—Ordered to lie on the Table.
Upon the Motion of Earl TEMPLE, the House
went into the further consideration of the Report
'spun the Qualification Indemnity Bill. The several
..rnendmessts were read, and agreed to, and the Bill
irdered to be engrossed, and read a third time on
f uesday next.
The Committee of Supply, and of Ways and
deans, were severally po.iponed to Wedaviday,
old the House adjourned until Tuesday nut.