The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1805-03-09 00:00:00

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France, %arise army and navy did not amount to
mote than 360,000 men,,which, taking their popuh.
tion at 34 millions, was not more than one man io
fourtein. Russia and Austria were nearly the same ;
the only country in which an equal comparison,
could be made with this was Prtsinia, whose poptil,-'
tion w.ts n arty the same as our own, but then it was
to he recolleaed that the army of Prussia was net A
national one, but mostly composed of foreigners.
The result WAS, that while France, Russia, ant [An,
trig, gave no morescif their, aCtive population then
one in fourteen, this country gave one in ten. Ile
volunteers of Great Britain and Ireland, his Lord.
ship said, amounted to more than 810,000, vibid,
was nearly one in faur of the aaive population, aril
he insisted that, in times even of insurrections and
revolutions, in the very era of even Robespierre him.
self, when every engine of terror and blood was at
work to raise men, they never had so great a num-
bei in France as we have at the present moment
this country, not growing out of insarreCtien,
ror, bloodshed, and ruin, but out of good
discipline, loyalty, and zeal for their count.
welfare. Looking therefore at the stated for: • ,
Lad described it, WAS there any ground to del.. •
military defence to a Committee ? It had !'e
that there had been a considerable ditnintitioa
volunteer force. This he was prepared t,
The highest number to which it ever had a•i:. , •
was 380,000 wen, including officers, &c. :to
341.000 rank and file. It is true, we cannot snd 04
inspeCtion more than 3;0,000, which is a large pro.
portion, that were effeClive. The last insist:Choi vest
307,000, so that there -was no greater deficiency
than 3000; and out of these, 150,000 were in even
respect effective and fit for any service, and the.,
were not more than 22,000, that could be said to be
undisciplined. His Lordship was happy, howee,...
in being able to state, that more than 200,in0 of
the volunteers have been on adual service sa %%tn.
ous times, have been subjea to the Mutiny Di I,
have submitted to be under its regulations and its
rules, and have thereby evinced their willing.
nese and zeal to serve their country, and w
defend it against every enemy that shall at-
tempt to invade it. He thought it necessary, ke
said. in state thus much on that subj.ea, in order to
show they were not materially diminished in num•
her, and were highly improved in discipline. He
came now to the regular army, and here lie must
observe, that ministers had been accused, when that
subjes was brought forward, they always talked in
.this he denied to be the case ; both the
last andthe present administration had always come
forward with-a fair and explicit statement of the
amount of the regular army, and had not, in any
one lustre, klesvit themselves disposed to blink
the vies n. The army now, exclusive of the mi-
litia, and, ia, speaking of this, not only the qua.
tity, but the quality is also to be considered; the
amount of the army, at present, is 16%000, which
is, in point Of'numbers equal, and in discipline supe-
rior, to thetof last year ; of this, nearly 80,000 were
in the different colonies, and the remainder were so
disposed of at home as to render our disposeable
force more effeaive and larger than it hat ever beta
since the c,einenc anent of the war. If then he hal
established the fah, that we bad a larger army in its
amount than any other country.; if he had she..a
that it wasin a higher stare of discipline than at ..ar
former period ' • whet reason could there be for a.
Committee? That House, and every part of the/
country, had ever, shewn themselves jealous of en-
trusting the•management of military affairs in any
other hands than those of the Crown. The HOWe
had very properly entertained that jealousy; and it
was clearly of opinion that all measures of this kind
should originate with the Executive Government.
(4 el?, qt. Hear! Hear ! Hear ! from the els, nista of
the Hesse.) His Lordship repeated, that he thoug:e
all measures of this kind ought to originate from the
Executive Government. When he said this, be did
not deny but measures of this aaturemay have been
prom:seed by others; but when, they are, they ought
always to be precise and specific in their °math:a ;
whergas this motion was perfealy novel, and went.
from the way in which it is worded, to embrace many
points,whioh ought not to rest any where but is the
CroWn. His Lordship asked, what were the ground
on which this motion stood ? Ile had shewn, that e
'could not be from the quantity or quality of ow
forces, then it must be because it Was alleged then
was no increase since the last year. This, however,
WAS not so ; we have aeli.ally an increase of tii,ooo
in our home force, and 20,000 in our disposeable
force. His Lordship denied, therefore, that this AS
had been, as was said of it, ineffeCtual. It had, oa
the contrary, been limy considerably effeCtive, And
would be more so, if allowed to proceed. The
ordinary recruiting had been increased by it, whicti
bad before been very much impaired.
Army of Reserve Bill had raised a gnat :writer
of men in a short time, but had been lined
to be attended with many inconveniences, amongst
which was that material and important one of
raising the bounties. These inconveniences all fit
direetly in the wry of the success of the p,. sot
Bill at its first outset. To judge fairly s f its
probable success, they should look at its upeiatioe
for the last three months, and they would tofr
be better able to judge what it was likely to
in future. His Lordship agreed in opinion with tin
Noble Baron who brought forward the nrozis ts, .o
to the general scope of his argument respeaii.g
black corps; but the Noble Baron •
that, notwithstanding such a sort
be the best for the defence of

in such .a climate, yet it is of that kind
cularly requires that limitation shoul
to; for, it would be always necessary
it to the number of white inhabitants,

the number of white troops employed
of the islands. His Lordship next a
subjeit of enlisting men for limited
had been sn much praised, and wh ch
deserve much of the encomium that

For his own part, he had given it
and consideration in his power ; he
high importance, that he would ha‘
master of it, if he could ; but he
those who were best informed on the
he had consulted, so much doubt •

that tho' there might be aslppearance
in many points of view, there were
contrary tendency which presented
the same time, that he thought it w&
and safer to adhere to the mode which

Constitution had pointed um, which

n most otiesvis 2
t of force c:af
rich a
kind which
,ould be atteii.iril
ary to proporto
nts, as well as
ied in the deka&
a 'vetted to the
d service, whirl
ch might pose b!!
at was paid to i
it every aUentio
found it of sue
eve made hinnei
e found, amen:
he subjeav
who'
t as to its num.
Ince of advantst
.e so many nt I
d themsclvel, n
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Winch glory been aftnated upon by our ancestors,
and n hich had, both in ancient and modern times,
reabied our armies to cover themselves with honour
nd renown—to make themselves the terror of their
cherries in every part of the world, and which was
mode, at the same time, so writ adapted to the
form and nature of our Government, which had so
many important colonies :bid possessions to defend
and protedt in such distant parts of the globe. For
these tempi* he thought the dheaion of the military,
as it stood at present, was placed in the best hands
it could be in—that no Committee was necessary to
give it more vigour and eifea, and he should, there-
fore, think it his bounden duty to oppose the pre-
sent motion.
The Earl of DARNLEY observed. that the
Noble Secrettry,f State had complained, that the
Motion of his Noble Friend had been too general,
and he should have trade some specific- proposi-
tions; he could not see it in that light, but on the
contrary, conceived his Noble Friend had gained
reat credit to himself, from the manner in which he
brought forward the question. His Lordship then
went into a long enumeration of the number of men
raised under the Aft, and contended, that the forces,
instead of being increased, had been greatly dimi-
nished. Ile then adverted to the late change which
had taken place in His Majesty's Ministry, the result
of which, it was understood, would have been a
.change of measures, particularly in the Military sys-
tem ; but no material alteration, however, bad oc-
curred.
The Earl of SUFFOLK took a retrosped of the
manner in which the Militia had been recruited. the
Army of Reserve raised, and the general clefts of the
Defence AEI, considering it as an objea of reproach
not only to Ills Majesty's Ministers, but to their
Lordships, that they should persevere in a measure,
which must, from concomitant circumstances, pro.
gres,ively decrease the raising of a disposable force,
most particularly at this season of the year, when
the time of harvest is approaching, and so many
persons are engaged in agriculture. Ilia Lordship
then adverted to the statement of the Noble Secre-
tary of State, specifying the number of Regular Re-
giments, Militia, &c. and made some. general ob-
servations adverse to the mode of raising and using
Black regiments for the service of the West India
Islands.

The Duke of MONTROSE in answer observed,
that the Black regiments during the last war had
displayed most evident marks of their fidelity and
courage in repelling the Spaniards, who had at-
tacked that part of our Settlements. When these
troops were well treated, His Majesty might depend
upon their faithful services; and he was well satisfied,
it was worthy the serious discussion of Parliament to
enquire into the state of these people, and amelio-
rate their condition as much as pa-is:hie. His Lord-
ship insisted that the Bill in question was a most ef-
feetual one for the purposes intended, and would
prove much more so, when it was understood
throughout the kingdom to he the determination of
Parliament to persist in it. The reason it had not
been so produCtive hitherto was, because the :aising
the Militia and Army of Reserve had drained the
country for a time; but, after a year or two, itiwould
be found most produetive indeed. The °fleet of
the question then before their Lordships wits, not
which was the best *Means of distussing a milirdiy
question ; it was not a Motion for considcriwg and
enoisiring into the state of the hifilitary force of the
c. u try ; but it was a Motion for ad Address to
His Majesty, to remove his preset* Ministest upon
this, however, he observed, that were certain per-
sons ti be admitted to His Majesty's Councils to-
day, they would not remain ip that situation for
three moivhs.

fhe Earl of CARYSFORT did not by any
means ..onsider the Motion of his Noble Friend in
that point of view ; it was a Motion replete with
wisdom, and well deserving their Lordships' consi-
deration. The Noble Secretary of State set out
with a pompons numeration of the number of forces,
raised for the protetion of the country, and annoy-
ance of the enemy, and of their state of discipline.
The most ample means had been put into the hands
of His Majesty's Ministers by the votes of both
Houses of Parliament ; but, with all these adian-
tages, he would ask, what had been effeeted t Was
it a situation for Great Britain to be in, after three
years war, after having been menaced during the
whole of that time with invasion, with only 800,000
men in arms, not to beable toretort those threats upon
the enemy he was at a loss to know the drift of the
Noble Secretary of State's argument, when he talked
of such a number of men in arms. What he wanted
to be informed of. what he wished to be assured of,
was that we had the means of maintaining a sue•
cesstul war against the enemy. That we had not
only a sufficient force for the Defence of the Coun-
try, but a regular disposeable force to annoy the ene-
my on his own shores. and to retaliate that menace
of invasion, not by words alone, but by actions. Vrith
respeet to the Volunteer Force, it was returned as
100,000 effetive men ; it was not his intention, who
was nine or ten years himself a Volunteer, to depre-
ciate that measure, he considered it a most efficient
and excellent measure in the hands of a wise Admi-
nistration. This must respeflable force was raised
and organised the last war, upon the renewal of
hostilities ; they only waited for some ci.nstitutional
call, to come forwaid t) a man, to give confidenee
to the Government, and to deter the enemy. What
measures were then resorted to ? nothing was left
to voluntary exertions: the Gentlemen'of the country
were called upon to head their neighbours and tenants,
and to animate them by their example ; but no sooner
was this effeifted, than new methods were resorted
to to cool their ardour and damp their spirit. In-
spe&ing Officers acre put over them, the strongest
proof of the mistrust of Government, of those very
persons on whom they affeAed to depend; but, not-
withstanding all this, they continued with unabated
zeal to ;noted their country. With respeet to the
regular army, which he considered the most import-
ant part of the service, his great objeft was, that
we might retort upon the enethy, and assert the
dignity of the British nation, which could only be
done lay a regular, numerous, and disposeable
force. It was stated, that this force am,unte.l to
eighty thousand men, for which number he would
give full credit, however a considerable de-tuc-
&n should be made for the army raised for a
limited service ; taking, therefore, the Itegelar
Army, Artillery, &c. what would be else whole
suUMlnt out of 0,000 t not mote than 40 00U he
Mended, would be found effstagal. Wes sieu

number meant to strike terror into the enemy ?
What then wis to be said of His Majesty's Minis-
ters, at the head of upwards of 16,000,000 of people,
amongst whom the greatest emulation prevailed
against a particularenemy,after three rears warmly
procuringa disposratde force of 40,000 men ? Surely
those Ministers did not deserve any praise for this: on
the contrary, they merited most decided disapproba-
tion. He, therefore, conceived, upon the most scrutin-
ous review of the subjeS, that there must be a radical
defeet in the mode of raking men. The measures
pursued were commenced with raising the Martin,
and then balloting for the Army of Reserve ; it be-
coming necessary to recruit the regular army, a con-
siderable deficiency took place in those forces. so
that those measures were uniformly desert:Clive of
the intended purposes; and this nation, the greatest
.la Europe, or in the page of history, left without the
means of annoying her enemy, instead of contending
successfully against France. His Lordship did not
feel that they should be justified in wasting the trea-
sure of the ceuntry, and spilling the blood of His
Majesty's subjeds, in a war so destruiive, with-
out making some effort to pnt down the pride and
ambition of the enemy. The Noble Secretary of
State had said, we now have a greater force than
ever we had. Whatever the establishment may be,
it ought at least to be commensurate to the danger.
We were not to inquire the number of 'the forces,
hut the elle& of them. It was also said, that the
Army of Reserve is now as high as ever it was ; His
Majesty's Ministers bad endeavoitrad to provide,for
recruiting that force which proved insufficient : most
it not then be said, that all which could he done had
been done, and after a trial for so long a time, without
effeet, could the absolute necessity of Parliament to
investigate the matter be denied t 'l'o what senti-
ment, constitutionally or politically, could the
opposition of His Majesty's Ministers be se:tribe,'
in the interference or their Lordships desiring
an address to Ills Majesty for new measures ?
In conclusion, his Lordship again c-alled the atten-
tion of the House to the on: great consideration,
that of having a numerous regular and disp orable
force. Our situation, with regard to the enemy, if
no longer dangerous, would be not disgraceful ; but,
after all the exertions which were made, after all the
forces which could be colleeted, we were still open I
to the same danger, the same disgrace, and Parlia-
ment
could no longer refrain Ban interfering.
The Earl of W ESTMOKELAND thout there
could be no objesaion in the world to theghnor
could he see any Oppression its it; as the penalties
only extended to those plates which were defaulters
in the Militia or Army of Reserve supplies.
Lord GRYNVILLF spoke td the following el.
feie My Lords, after the manner in which this
subjeet has been discussed this night, if not for its
great importance, I would net have troubled the
House with many observistiimi. If any body wishes
to have a true chataeler Of the mca'sdre, I would
advise him to look to the speeches of the Noble
Lords who have supported it. I wish the Noble
Lord (Hayskettsitry) to look to the Noble Lotto on
the one side of him and on the other, and see whe-
ther lie has a right to eared the support of thate
upon the present occasion who have hitherto voted
with him. In saying this, however, Ido not mean
to ter:each Biro or them with want of consistency.
I do not wish to indulge in reSeetions uf that kind.
It is not my disposition. It is new eleven months
since a Noble Friend of mine gave notice of his in-
tention to move for a Committee, to consider the
various measures for the military defence of the
coun:ry, and whether any and what farther mea-
sures could be devised for the purpose of rendering
that defence more effeetual and complete? It these
be any person Wlln thought it right Men to support
that motion, and withdraws that support new, bring
persuaded that such an alteration has taken place in
the circumstances of tl e country, as requires this
change of conduet, instead of blaming, I commend
him : but be it for me, who hive seen no alteration,
but such as ought to produce a ertatfary effeet : be
it for me, who awn convinced this the motion, which
was theft ripe, is now still More ripe, still more *-
emery': be it for Me to maintain' My own 'chem.
ter, and elm the consistency tet rot own conduft.
My Lords (is a tevie of ;Ow knirOktion),' we have
been told, in a language that no Minister ever before
held in this House, and ithicb, I trust, no Minister
will ever hold in it again, that it is not the province
of Parliament to take upon itself a bnsiness of this
kind. Good God! is it possible? Yet; we are told
that the military defence must be left entirely in the
hands of the Crnsen. Good God ! has the person
who has used this language ever studied the rights
and privileges of Parliament, or ever read the laws
of his country ? Has he ever leirned the rudiments
of the Constitution? Hai he ever heard of the Mutiny
Bill? and does he know that the Ceinen cannot raise
a single mass without the consent of Parliament ?
that the power of raising a military force for the de-
fence of the country must be submitted to the con-
sideration of the House from year to year, and is, of
all others, as being one of the Mat important to the
interests of the cnuntry,more immediately within the
province of PAW-Anent ? and yet this is the Consti-
tution under vihiCh we are told that the Parliament
has no tight to consider those very lan and ar-
rangements which it has itself enacted. This is the
country in which we are toed that every measure of
this nature must Sow fro* the Executive, and be of
its s;i;gcstinin. Good God.: is this the United Par-
liament of Great Britain dnd ? and is such
language to be held in. ; and is the person using
such I inguage to pass anithout censure? In dire&
opposition to such do/trine, I say, if there be any
one Stibjet in which this House has a right to inter-
fee*, more than another, it is the military estahlish-
meet of the country'. lute, this is a right which the
House has a, right to exercise upon all occasions;
but a is paitieularly incumbent upon them to
do so at a tlet9e- Wien, in addition to the power
which they posseii," tedomrgended to them
by the Crown, at the beginning of the Session, to
consider what farther means may be necessary for
extending and improving the defence of the country.
oath* I learn the pewee that tag overturned the
Coostitution, until I have learned the force that has
sealed up the liberties and ;smilers of Parliamett, I
shall caercise my right in opposition to the most
evraordinare attempt ever made, to limit the free-
dten and power of Parliament. But, amhng the
mita, thir4s which it hif given me pain to hear this
ni ;hi, there is on& which has atrotded me real plea-
sure. I ti t I with joy chat the langage of univerwdl
epprobstimi Seed to be Wished upon the
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measnre is now abandoned, and that soar alterations
are to be made in it. The only objeaion diet)
that these alterations should not come from this side
of the Rouse, but be suggested, by the Executive.
This is coming to the truth and 'al of the cast.. It
is an acknowledgment that the aa has proved fri-
volous and inefficient for many months. But it is.a
narrow view of the motion to take into consideration
only this one Bill. It will be the duty of the House
to consider it only as part of a system, to the re-
vision and improvement of which its attention ought
to be direaed in a Committee. 111 as I think of the •
Bill, it would be a narrow view of the motion to
argue it as merely for the purpose of its repeal
The Bill must be repealed, for it will repeal itself.
It cannot be executed. Such is the fal. and it is
in vain to attempt to disguise it. A Noble Earl
( Westmorland), who thinks the Bill may be brought
to bear, says, shall we let those escape punishment
who have been guilty of omissions? Now, if the
Noble Frail has read the Bill, he will find that it
imposes penalties upon those who are not account-
able. It direas the Church-wardens to raise the
men, and it punishes the parishes for the omission.
The Secretary of State may speak. big: he may
write threatening letters, but he cannot punish. All
he can do is to raise a clamour in the country,
against a measure at once so arbitrary, inefficient,
an.l unjust. This Bill then I might leave to its own
operation, but I cannot take so confined a view et-
the question. Among other topics, it had hen said
that this is an intlirec't measure, for the removal of
Ministers. Whatever the nbje4 or opinion of others
may be, I, fin one, have a more honourable and
dire motive. A More dangerous principle cannot
he inculcated than to manitain, that where there is
Confidence in Ministers, Parliament must wait for
the suggestions of the Executive in cases involving
the most important and essential interests of the
country. There canon be a more degrading state
fur Parliament ; there cannot be a more dangerous
state for the country. 'Phis docerine of implicit
confidence is what the Noble Lord who made the
Motion condemns. The true constitutional line ofcon_.
dui is to oppose those measures which we think
wrong, and to recommend those we think right.
without any relation to contifence or want of con-
fidence is banisters. My opinion was, that whether
Ministers *lee removed or not, much good would
guise, much good might be expeeted to arise from a
Committee. Much ofthedifficulties have arisen from
the late Ministers. Now if we go into a Committee,
we may ascertain this and many other important falls.
When the whole of the talents of the country were
in array against the Noble Lord (Hawkesbury), he
was prepared with the same display of numbers
which he has made this night. Indeed, I think the
statement might have been made last year with
more truth It might be proved then, and now.
that the military strength of this kingdom bears
as great a relative proportion to its Imputation
as that of any other nation. Is then the Noble
"Lord prepared to reduce this country to the
'state in which it must be, if estimated by its pn-
•polation ? We have ta.en able, hy the spirit and
-charaaer of our people, and the nature of our
Constitntion, to arrive at a higher degree of strength
and prosperity, than nations of greater population.
must presume then, that this will not b..,,given up
forehe times& of the argument,' ora' rot ce Popor-
tinnate to our population. If then there be nothing
in the measure itself, let me see whether any chanee-
has taken place, which may operate in its favour.
Wo have been told, that there has been a change of.
Administration. Surely it cannot be meant by this,
that by the accession of some new Ministers to the
old, there has been that acquisition of strength
which can compensate foe the deficiencies of the
Bill. If then t'.ere be not that assumed supe-
riority of talents, let me ask, what has been
done to reconcile the country to the Atl
We have been told, that they have ailed not
only in a weak and contradiaory m Inner, but
that every thing done has bees effeaed not by their
exertions, inn notwithstanding their exertions
It is. therefore, assuredly necessary to take the
suhjeB into'their own I,mdr. We were told that
we had not Months, nor weeks, but that the emer-
gency was so urgent. we had scarcely days or hours
to provide for it, yet this dill is all the preparation
that hai been made against this urgent and presiing
danger. Itsobjea was to rai:e a large dispose-able
force. Now it is a faas that the whole disposeable
fnrce of the country it less by ts So men than it
was in 1804. 'the disposeable infantry, I admit, has
acquired an increase of 6,000 in this year. but in
this estimate I make an allowance which Minis
ters claim, although not entitled to it. They take
credit for the full amount of the statement upon the
table, but that must always exceed the aatial force,
because the army. particularly that part of it upon
foreign service. Must in the mean time.be suffering
a decrease. 'Mit was particularly the case in the
last year, in which the brilliant, though bloody
campaign in the East Indies, most, among other
cause,. peculiar to that year, have produced a de-
crease. Supposing then the number to be 88,000,
and allowing 4,000 for the loss, since the returns
were made, the whole adage' amount does not ex-
ceed 84,000; a force which was held too little at the
time when the alarm of danger first arose."—
His Lordship here entered into a minute arithmetical
calculation in support of his conclusion, and then
proceeded to state that since the Treity of Amiens,
England had never held her place amongst the
nations of Europe, and yet we are to be told
by His Majesty's Ministers, of the extraordi-
nary advintages we derive from a war, which
they loudly boast of, because we have been
for two years past engaged in it, and it cannot
be said, that England is as yet absolutely conquered.
He then expressed his wish, that the Defence Bill
should be repealed{ and, conceiving that it must
draw after it the repeal of the Militia and Army of
Reserve Bills, his Lordship concluded. by saying,
it is my :ervent wish, that this Motion may have
as great a majority this night, as one of a similar
nature had in.this House La year."
Lord Viscount SIDMOUTH replied to some of
the leading arguments which lad been advanced,
with some degree of warmth, particularly to what
had been said- in reference to the conduct of His
Majesty's late Ministers. He contended, that the
military charades of the country was not tarnished
while in their keeping ; and adverted to their un-
preCedented vigour and energy. in creating and col-
LON. a law d4essive force, in the adual cireum-
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stances in which the country was placed atthe com-
mencement of the present war.
Earl CAMDEN explained.
Lord MULGKAVX Adverted to the inrent of the
Motion, and said, it was fot no other put pose but to
remove the present Ministers.
Lord KING explained. •!.'
The LORD CHANCELIEOR took a review of
the different points, and enneluded by saving.
he was s wry that a Noble Lord (Grenville)
should have so far mistaken his Nohle F 'end (Lord
Hawkesbury), being persuaded that without suet
mistake his Lordship would not have es;wessed him-
self in such strong terms.
Lord Viscount M EL VIL.r..E —I lad he risen earlier
in the debate, would have troubled their Lordet.ps
with some detailed observations upon wh it had
been advanced. He had listened attentively to all
that was said, and every shaky/ of at-pa-tient •
advanced was merely to the repeal of the Defence-
Bill ; a point on which their Lordships had lately
decided. W;th respell to the amount of the dir-
poseable force, it was now, taking it only at 41.1'11*
men, greater, than ever Britain had, at any 41,7' `i • r
for offensive op-ration ; and the I,t
of creating a iisposeable force were kn.,tvn t..
those who had an opportunity of officially ea,o:. i-
eneing them.
Earl SPENCER regretted feeling himself called
upon, to trouble their Lordships at that very Iry
hour; but, he must contend, that in re.tlity, the
arguments in support of his Noble friend's motion
were confirmed by what bad Fallen from Ministers
themselves; and he must.flatly deny the h nAd po-
sition of the Noble Viscount; that all that had limit
said went only to the repeal of the Defence Bill. •
The Question was then loudly called foron which
their Lordships .livid: d, when there appeared
For the Motion, including .12 Proxies --• 511-
Against it, including sti Proxie4 . . 11117 •
• Majority jn favour of Ministers 75
At THREE O'CLOCK the House Adjourned 01
Monday.

HOUSE OF COMNIONS
The Marine Motnty, the lee 01 Nf.n lter-•nee heron.
raen•,. the Sugar Drawback Duty, Jnd ttie Add.t.a.ed Loser
Stamp' Doty, sms •5r read a second tune, and nnuotatedlvt
Monday.
T. •
The Kapott of th • Resolutions on the Expiring Lass Yeee
agreed to, and «demi to be Welted to a CJI,I int • A 4
A Meesage from the 1.0r44 ennee.teedr that t.:7 hell4frnied
to the Loma Sal, Ind the A iddoonal P4411P sth •"-- • -
The third readi ag of the Property Tax vra deferred
Monday.

Lora HENRY PETTY mf.....v1 that there Ile la;,1 before boa' '
House a copy of the deposal M. made ~... tlfe Wan Prisoner}
in Kilmainkain Gaol, Dublin before three IC 0,11 ewe elnat. ...
the Court of lima'. Bend, on the 16th and 17Th hide-lt. 1
Tare CHANCELWIerif the EXCIIEQUEIt ". 0.41.6 ..
I
Weide yet had an opporttiiity of ene term, whetnerep mat ipo-
petitions may nut relate mion to the pnblx. he As/ NI
N'thie Lord to undernamd,that the i.,,idirevinn of thOul, in
part, may depend uposs. flat tircuMlLtsiCe. fll s,rAel naperts
he had so obieetiop to it' .
Lod HENRY PETTY moiled, Viet th:v principally re-
lated to the treatment of dm parties whi'e in prison I on whirls
the NI dion van agreed to.
He eke novel for a Copy edam Memorial pneemelaillo flea
I ivh Government, to bettallof the said Manners...A*o.mi.
TIIE SHERLFFS OF AtIDDIASFX.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
revered th 6 order of the daf for resuming the ad-
journed debate on so much of the report of the Mid-
dlesex Committee, of I r. 02, as regarded the condua
of the then Shod:ft of Middlesex.
Mr. SHERIDAN said. he rose for the psupriee
of opposing the resumption of the debate at pre-
sent, and to propose; that it be referred to a Itsture
d ty, in order to leave this open fur the hearing of
::noun on behalf of the Sheriffs. In what be pro-
posed to offer, Its meant not at all to enter into rise
merits of the care ; hut simply to sheer, that those
pertleshad a right to the benefit of- Counsel The
-Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt), upon a farmer
night, contended, that the evidence given before
the Committee should be taken as conclusive, be-
cause they were themselves upon oath, examined
feidence upon oath, and had an opportunity of ex-
amining the countenance and demennour of the wt-.
iiesses, at the time that they were under examina-
tion. The Committee gave in their resolutions, ac-
companied with die evidence ; but it temeined with
the House to compare them, and enquire how tar
the resolutions were borne out by 'he evidence. He
did not, hoWerer, conceive how this could so well
be done, unless the House should be assisted by the
comments of the Counsel, and that was all which
lie felt himself di posed at present to contend for.—
He paid many cotnpliments to the candour and be-
aourabk feelings of the Noble Lord (.elersriarn),
who presided in that Committee, and who, having
expressed it aehis opinion, that the iccused parties
should he heard in their justificat..- • would, no
doubt, give better reasons in favour of riser opinion.
than he could hope to do, who was less ac-
quainted with the circumstances. It was ind ed true,
that the Sheriffs were head by their Counsel bef• re
the Committee; but the Heuse dal not know thei
they were heard fully, completely, and imeartiefie
There was no power in them to force the COMTPIA. t,
to grant them a full hearing. The Noult. Leal h.-
already alluded to, would allow that whet he taili
before the House was nut the w.• ,ie of the
evidence taken on the election, i,at a se-
let!tion of such parts of it as ! e crer—ivee. i•
relate more particularly to the deeriffs.— --i iii.
had no analogy to the genera course of cruet...
proceedings.—When the Committee was ex-
amining evidence, they gave the Committee no no-
tice of any charge being preferred against them ;
and. though evidence which might Abe,' them was
going on for the space of several mouths. yet, when
the charge became more serious, they had :ai-.1 only
a single day allowed them for instrult•ng their '
Counsel, and bringing evidence in their defence.
The Counsel they then employed had so
opportunity of - --- ----icing - summing.
the evidence -
week! -
mitted
former 1
oaths to .
not bound
ther than ,
asked,whether,soi _
given up hit cam , tip
standing. have ilb
of the Sheri& ? a
they had as
they would. it ''^----

eflt :•1,
p.•'
atel,, •
spats.:
ell as o
deirm•
to GK
possibly
ad to t.
tuestioi
, arnoll
ti who,
'two*
lvssof
my I
Ci•eS,
eLeelir
ith

unity of cross-tramining or summing ap
krce which had beat given in the previous
and months of the proceedings. He ad- . I
the truth of what had been alleged upon a
day. that the Committee wee, bound by their
o try the merits of the petition, but they were
and to try the merits of the Petition any tar-
!tan vivid the seat; in proof of wh;cll he
whether,mpposissgthepetitioningcandniateh.a
up his cause, MP COMlllitte* would, notwiti.
ig, h
Sbave sand of inquiring into the condnet
it
erigs T certainly would not ; but if
an rd ental matter to iihserve Spool,
,tiner it the ~bled of a Special Report.
it

-TVS MS^ VII S. the seat, the Sherifa.stood in the tints-
' rim's{` I.c..ty Jury, whose verdiet was final ; bout
• as t inz]dental circumstances, such as the intetfer-
. ••enre of Peers. et the misenadgil of Returning 01-
Lty. Ettess,.they were its the nature of a Grand Jury.
fund ground of complaint, which they referred
to the final de. ision of this Hotue. was proves!
17. bry the official Report of the Ilchester Petition,
, whew. the Committee represented the miscondutl of
I Mt. Davism incidentally, though his name WAS not
so mach as mentioned in the petitian. The Shore-
• Ay,: fleetion tests the fit st dispute that came before
. the :chose after the pa-sing of the Grenville Aa, and
though there were then in the House such supporters
ef it as Mr. Grenville himself, Mr. Dunning, Sir
—George Saville, Mr. Wedderburne (since Lnrd
Roslyn), and others, they could not deny the jus-
tice of he.tring tlie accused in their own justificatio
These Sherid's did not Appear before the Committee
. .

with any of the chArdaer. of atraigned delinquents,
nor hadt:le Committee the ch4r.taer of a Petty

Jury. The former had no notice of a charge set ved
upon them; they had no time to prepare for fni-ir
defence. or to prepare their witnesses, and cross-
i•x.i, lsi l e these against them : they could not chal-
. kne am of the Jury, nor had they any share in
the appointment of the nominees; the latter could not
sta nu after rile of the candidates should vesign, and if
.. . the dellusqueeey charger upon the Sheriffs should ap-
pezr to them to be false, tiley had not the power of
it reporting it to be frivolous and vexatious. It was
true, that though this House might call for and
exereitte parole evidence, they had not the power
of administering any oaths; but it must be teen!.
leßed, that all impeachments and matters of great
nationel importance were taken in that way ; and
if the power of administering oaths was found to be
merge:try, it was time that some legislative measure
should he adopted, to give the House that power ;
and he did eon conceive on what ground even the
assumption of it could be objected to by the other
branches of the Legislature. 14.. a understood from
a Member, whom he did not then see in his place,
that this defect was corrected by the Irish Parliament,
as was no doubt in the recollection of the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite him (Mr. Foster) : the
former prat:lice then was, whenever a special report
was made on Election Committees, to rehear the
Counsel ar.d evidence before the whole House; but
finding this process to be both teclous and laborious,
they passed an Ad of Parliasne it, tatjaining, that
whenever a charge was b, ought against a sheriff or
Teeming OfOcer, the party accused should be fur-
nished WWI a copy of the charge, and the Cum-
.
mutter be bound fully and completely to try it.
This appeared to him se just and so equitable a
' mode of proceeding, that should he fail in his pre-
sent opposition, and the desere bit resumed, he meant
shortly to submit to the House a provision similar to
that which had been adopted in Ireland.
Lord MARSHANI expressed his cadre concur-
rence in many of the principles and conclusions , i
tie Hon. Gent. As to the eelence sent down, he
admitted that it did not comprise all that had been
taken helm e the Committee, but the greatest dili-
gence and attention were used in extracting all that
was material, or related to the adritission of the
millers on th: poll. In the course of the enquiry be-
fore the Committee, the Sheriffs were at liberty to
watch such parts of the evidence as might affea
themselves, and it certainly was in the power of
t
. their Counsel to suns up upon it,if be thought it pro-
per so to do. The case of Davison, in the Ilchester
F • cause. was 'very different; he had fiti copy of the
charge, he had no notice of it whatever, as his
name was not even mentioned in the petition. In
the Shoreham case also, Roberts, the retaining *M-
eer, was in no better predicament than Davison, and
as he had no Counsel before the Committee, it was
but just that before sentence should be passed upon
bias, his Counsel should be heard somewhere. The
minded of the Sheriffs of Middlesex was now for
the decision of the whole House, many Members of
which had not heard, nor had any opportunity of
reading the whole incidental evidence, and be
thought it but justice that they should be admitted
to be heard by their Counsel.
Mr. FOX hoped, that after what bad fallen
- from the Noble Lurd, there would now be no ques-
tion as to hearing the Sheriff's defence, for all
that jtad been urged on a former night against go
ing into evidence, Wel s by no means arelieehle to the
heating of their Counsel. .le made no doubt thit
the evidence, as far as it materially uffeled the a, -
cased, was fairly and judiciously selected We hid,
therefore, the evidence before tn. but we wanted the
comments of the Counsel, which had rim been trans-
mitted to us. A Right lion. Gent. (Mr. Pier), on a
former nccssinn, wished every thing to pass upon
fell cniifidenee its ate Committee i but considering
the Noble Lord aide organ of that Committee, he
m'ssr consider the confidence in then to be very li•
mittel and imperfect. if the House should be pa-
st! sited to adopt a d:fferent reels. heal what they
recommended ; and when the Minister was so urg-
ent to proceed in a different way, he could not think
that he rested more upon the letter, than he did upon
the spirit, of Mr. Grenvilles Att.
The MASTER of the ROLLS thaught it would
Le exceedingly proper that some new le,;islative
measure should be adopted for the regulatioe of this
k unl. As it stood at present, it appeared to him to
be improper. father the House or the Com-
mute should have the whole and final judgment of
the matter. As a court of justice, they stood in an
anomalous situation, and o sly direCted by the prece
dent of its own practice. All the Courts of Judica-
ture had justice for their ohjeet ; bat many of them
arrived, or aimed at it, by dissimilar mediums,
which seemed to vary from the uniformity of the
- jurisprudence of this country. A roan arraigned
for felony at the Old Bailey may demand to make
• his defence by Counsel, and nothing struck foreigners
with so much surprise, as that, in this extreme case
if life and death, a pursots accused should be refused
the same advantages, to which he would have been
entitled is cases of a much inferior and more trivial
nature. He confessed that, with these judicial ex-
amples before Mtn, he was unable to determine, a
priori, whether, in propriety, Counsel nu ;ht or
aught not to be heard in the case, at the her ct the
House ; in that respect, he bad only to leek to the
precedents of the Wave. In doing this, be found
abet the practice of making the reports of the Lice-
elfin Committees final, had ceased in the year 1671 ;
when these causes were tried in Committees of the
whole House, Lo end, nce was eitinsinrct upon oath ;
but when toe petitions were Mened to select Corn-