The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1810-05-22 00:00:00

br. 14 rttiob jz:rtto

TUESDAY, MAY 21. 1810.

were read a second time, and agreed to ; sad leave given to
bring in bolts amanita'''.
The Committee on the Foreign Salt Bill was postponed to
Friday taw.
Sir C. Moue a e moved for accouois of the Coal and Calm
imported from South Wales is the year 1109. Ordered.
Sir W. Coatis bretegist up the report of the New Stock-
market Bilk
Upon the motion of Mr. IDIraT, the further consideration
of the Bill was postponed to Wednesday mat.
The Committee on the Custom Cousolidatiou Bill of the
Isle of Mae was postponed toto.morrow.
The Oil of Vitriol Bill este thrwssFh a Committee ; the
report to be received to-nsorraw.
The Sere Forest Bill was read • third time, and .
Upon the motion of Mr. Rost, the Foreign Siliilwati
read n second time, and ordered to he committed to-morrow.
Mr. WILLesEtY Poet gave notice, that he would move
That • Message be seat to the Lords fur a copy of their re-
port, concerning the Pablo. Records of Ireland.
Mr. W. POLE postponed the further consideration of the
Report of the Irish Gaols' Bill, to Monday at.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
• The House then went into • Committee of Supply, in which
it was voted, tint • slim not exceeding•l3,7ll7l. should be
granted to His Majesty, fur purchasing Mr. Grevilles mi-
nerals. The Report to be .received to-nwerow..
An aceoust of the set produce of the duties spas stamps,
for the years tote, Moo and tato, were brought up, sad
ordered tube ou the bible'.
• Mr. WISARtila Moues in • Bill to enable His 1114eity tb
^issue Excisemen Bills on the aids of the year.—Read • first
nod ordered to be read • second time tomorrow. He aloe
brought in • Bill towable His Majesty to appropriate part
of the surplus of the Stamp Dutit s of the year taut, to the
defraying of dm Loan of the year. Read • first and ordered
to be read a second time to.morrow.
The Committee of Ways and Means was postponed to
W eolnesday oath
General T•IILVTDII presented a petition from the toted
and neighboorlsemi of Liverpool, praying far Parlismeotary
atlik*.
Genes SI TA g LITTON concurred with the Petitioners in 'be
opinion of the necessity there existed for liefto is The Pe-
tition was signed by three thumaud must respectable I* ree-
bottle's.
General C, A SCOT' g could sot second big Hon. Colleague,
without making a few obaervatiess. He would wore the
House, Malt the opinions contained in the petition were um,
by army means, the sentimeete done-teeth of the Freeholders
of Liverpool. He was happy that he Hon. Colleague stated
what was his °pianos upon thin measles, fur as he wee iodised
to vary is his seatimesta, with such fremeesey, it was
able to judge, without an open avowal of the antarelksie
sentiments, whether they were favourable or hostile to any
particular subject. His Honourable Colleague had, be be-
lieved, before questiosted the oespectaMlity of those whose
claims to reputation he now cussidered utidesiable. He
could very truly assertj that the great majority of the fire-
'solders whims he had the honour to represent, were contest
with the Meeting* they enjoyed under the preset system,
rad were extremely evens to any speculations concerning
the Constitution.
Mr. Wirt conceived from what the Hos. Gentle-
man said, that be was of opinion that every public petition
should he rejected. As to the assertion that his Honourable
Friend (Tarletuu) vaned in his nentiuseets, it had been re-
marked, perhaps with some pieties, that those who voted
fur either side, :thrush:ly, were the only men who had arm
claims to independeoce and integrity. The Petitioners did
not profss for any but themselves, aud he sew no pos-
sible reason fax objecting to the petition on that account.—
Of the respectability of the petitioners be could say that
there wits • very strong probability, for he saw amongst
TOW 11011Pes that of Mr. Roscoe, ousel indeed he shoats have
lets rinadiagir happy if that worthy Gentleman eras empower-
ed • to present the petition, and that his Honoarable Friend
(Terletuh) had wooded it.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. Ito•a ITS presented a petition from Worcester, upon
the wine subject • seconded by Mr. 6: , Auld 'Redeye('
to lie on the table.
Mr. W Mattel presented a similar petition from Cantor-
bsry.,—Ordered to lie oti the table
Lord COCRII•Ng said, be was much surprised that de
Bert Forest Bill had passed the House withunt any cheat-
two ; a Dill so material, and which involved such 11.s110-
queues as that to which be had adverted, should not have
ruined the House as • private Bill; he then moved, " That
the right of His Majesty, the interest of individuals, and the
Wardeu*s relioquieloneut of his eSitas iu Bete Forest, be re-
fereed to a Seket Committee,"
Mr. Rost mid, that if the Noble Lord had had say ob•
jeetions to the bill, he surely ought to have stated them in
another stoat of it; there hail been many opportunities, and
it was rather strange that the Noble Lord sheik' coins down
to the House with his objectiown, after the bill bed passed.
After some observations upon the service which would be
tendered to the Crown by the inclueure of Here Forest, he
mid that he conceived it completely aniseecesere to refer
the subject to • Committee.
The motion' wee uryatived without *division.
Lord C then eased, '. That due notice should
be given of the Orders of the Day when any motes was en
be made respecting Giants to the Cisme"
The SPII•ItTIL observed, that such • system would be
contrary to the practice of the Hones In coosequalaie of
the growing asoltipheily of bassoess, Hoehn thought ac-
cessory le keep • register is use of the offices, in which
the Orders of the Day were entered, sad by a re-
lereoce to that, any
.Geutleman might become acquainted
• web the tosieeselatended for tbe night. When any bill wai
before the Home it which Crown bosioess was coocerned,
be regularly stepped the proceedings tbenrapos, until the
moral of the Crows wets signified. The C.Towu Bills were
mufortely, inserted agiongst the orders of the day .3 and as
they might nit with private Bills, be took especial oars
Uwe they should go through private Committees abuse maim,
1111 well as through the Committer of the Horse This
mode of procerdiug tem considered sutficteutly satisfactory
tel the House.
After a few words From Mr. TAT!, the CHANCELLOR of
the Exclaiming's, and Mr. 51•LatCle FITZGERALD, the
motima was issgatived wothowt • division.
Me. Loran:Ave postpone' lats motion on the subject of
Capitals Faskela's peeress, se 'mums of the imperbet state
M. his information osi mime of the points whet intins.ely
commeied with it. This east of Skillet-me, he stated,
.. . _

West Indies iequested the Government not only
to promote the persons who were the b of
lipid tidings. but also those officers who had
been instrumental in conveying in good health
troops to that quarter of the world. He appealed
to those instances when ships of war were em-
ployed as transports, which would bear testiosouy
how fortunate cud successful those enterprises had
been ou account of the stew of the troops. Ile
elucidated it by an account of the liatuidition to
Egypt, and he contrasted that Expedition with
thoseof Copelhagen and Corunna. whet e insay men
were lost from their being exposed to the mewl-
veutencies of hired transports. It might probably
be objected, that the times would not permit the
taking of so many vessels from the service. That
was en objection, and would be one of a serious
maitre. if the position were founded iu truth.—
But this could not he the case, for it appeared that
105 ships were in actual service, and weedy the.
same number were it, ordinary. There were in the
Navy 800,000 tons, and for the purpo•ea he sub-
mitted the 'present motion, it was not necessary to
abstract is greater proportion thau 47.000 tons.—
If we reflected upon our situation in the present
state of Europe. there was cot even a necessity fur
those ships we had now in actual ►ervice. The
whole navy of the world combined against us at
this period, could not amount to more than so
ship. of the line. But if we also reflected upon
the power which our enemy had ginned on the
Continent, we could sot pursue better advice than
that of Lord Nelson, who strongly urged the pru-
dence of keeping 10.000 men on hoard our fleet,
ready to act against any part of our enemy's coast
whenever emergency should require. This might be
effectitally accomplished, if ships of war, iu the
moonier he proposed, should be employed in the
conveyance of troops. In addition to other reasons,
he pressed that of the more healthful state of the
troops while they continued on board, cud their
bring under the proper discipline of the navy.—
Had these shies. iustead of hired transports, been
employed iu the Expedition to ‘Valcheren, many
of those unfortunate vireos which did occur, would
uot, is all probability, have happened. It was, Un-
der the cireannitaircer of the war, very prudent
that we should Itusbausl. not only our ships. but our
men. The war, perhaps, would endure many
years, and as lung as the present Ruler of France
supported his power, there was not the smallest
prospect of this country making a durable peace.
He next calculated the expense betieeen armed
ships and transports. and sootended the former of
the two were the most economical. For the pur-
pose at elucidating the arguments he advanced, he
read many passages from the documents which had
already been produced to the Houseoll the suhject,
nod concluded by putting the inotiou he had stated
in the cosset of his speech.
Lord AuLeittAYs trusted their Lordships would
sonormly yawn lepers the 'propriety of changing the
present system of conveying troops, before they as-
sented to the proposed Attention. The hired
transports were not. he could affirm, subject to
those objections attached to them by the Noble
Viscount. Hired transports were capable of bring
made equally convenient with ships of war, as to
heslth, in the conveyance of troops. With respect
to the expense, he differed from the Noble Viscount,
for the cost of hired transports was considerably less
than that of ships of was. If reference were bad
to the two sorts of vessels, whenever employed, it
would he found that the greatest loss had been
sustained when our troops had been conveyed
in ships of war. The aspect of Europe was far
from affording an iiiduceinerst to relax that vigor-
ous system which ere were bound to pursue, in re-
gard to ourl navy. The Noble Lord entered into
along and able statimieut of the two comparative
systems, and maintained there was reason to enter-
tain that of still conveying troops is hired trans-
ports.
The Earl of WAILWICIC was at first induced to
support the twutiou ; but, from what lie had heard
on the subject, he was prevailed upon to alter hi.
%Antrim
The Earl of GALLOWAY considered the motion
as one most important to the interests of the uavy.
He took a comprehensive view of the whole subject.
and very ably recommended the use of ►hips of
war for the conveyance of troops, iu preference to
hired transports.
Earl STAIIIIIOPI, in a very facetious sod argu-
mentative speech. supported the motinu.
lie
particularly blamed the coasttuetion of ships for
the wervicr, and especially as they were wait for
the resters caret, which, snore than any other, pre-
sented sit opportunity_ in these times tor the tura-
bion of the enemy. It was also rem irkahle that
ships of war never lasted more than twelve yertrit,
when, uipun an average. they ought to last for
fifty ; and this he attributed to the scandalous
manlier in which they were built, for the wood, in
of the vessel, was generally wet,

. ----- the inner part _ .
re, :4. 1.. " ;he militect *WI OM: of Inding entionleration.
......d that maim a was sure to rot the whole :maw (arras his sot basin the necessary cummuuirat.on with
see had *rimed lbw Food to be tine of eonsiderable a"
I:ll2"atett, nod that a was so at the time wired that Noble eoltstructilints . . . f.aptais Feskett, whose kave of rearoce wea of shur.er dam
ttkl latslicised it til Ile House.
ATHOLIC QUESTI9N.
The Earl of I.tvuturoot coacurred in tne ern- nos lima be could hate wished. •He tined us Fralloy
•
The Bel of Lis retool. &clued, be bad no intention to
id .111btit (stud • •. ' • portonee of the (proton, but apprehended the
6....1 b. on: ,
toad o the Noble Lord bad hees de- House woulilagree with him in iliiiii.ing the choose I remotest tor tutor sir
• ,
Mr. O'll•aa postponed the Adjoorsed DeNtle on sow
5'444 isios"ele":ll;e.se 'it.!,,, it 'lb' 6'14 hone been "ccr. of the service would, at this Wises he attended important question, Irma Thiamin, tisaFildity 0, tc.
Mr. Ti "moved, " That an humble Ilibless be pro,
Ise iiseuios was thee pails sad the Bill arm read the se- with material injury to our ausintiine superiority.
%item, andusdered to be uninitiated to-morrow i and it The previous question was thou put and agreed tented to His allajest!. FraYtall timid there he sala herride_pit'llite
Homo, so nemotat ot the tutalestoons of the prods Of .
them wedded diet the Lords be an ri. stoned to without a divisem.--Adjourued. Admiralty, &c. hoe the year t 791, and ot all tin:sums
TRANSPOIST SLSVICE. —.sm..-- ' oat of the sanie"..-ddrred to.
Veen the Order of the 1)i? bring read-- HOUSE OF COMMONS. PARLIAMENTAY REFORM.
Lion' IlttviLts aildse•sed the 11,iii%e at great .....,-.. lklr. Bimini began by stating the great.degreeelf
"li'll. Ile observed that Ise should immediately The farther cratsideration of *be Turnpike Head till waa
embarras,roimt under sk hich he. fwitud himself, to
tt:'z.e the" Lordships of Om nature of his ""Rded P°7" VI ritusaWersa..4.7 fee: LI et the sowdon of rising to rail the attention of the . House to this
5",.... by stating the purport of It in that stage 1..,, he,. ie( Bills nomad is es oars of Ms eoholMis most momentous subject. Every thing rendered
fa,"...51,,,ch. It was his intention to move th.• wiestys_oric,„4 his ts,k at present one of peculiar &berry and tars
ILI 1"11 ',solution, ii that it uppeored to that sir. ()llama mowed furies,* t• heti ate • bill to "I°l4 port atter. The nature of the times, the .heat
l'Ae the employment of ship of war is the con. the grill lath la Ir•tes1""••••• P.m..' • of the countrv, the slate of the represent:Afton, lid
`,544. ..r
e... troop. wigs
U*1111.14 ships pief,ralile to malting us- of The Surveyor Geaerars ILI was read a third tune, sad
combining to impress upon hit mind the extreme
as hits4'trausports for the mine "Tel! sc„ia, Eviso euperasonatioa Sill was reed •seces4 magnitude of his undertaking ; and his feelings
ilk.. "°"*." The protwitrty of his ',notion was fonnd- use i 0.4 0,4,„ 4to be ~.oilmomi so.oikogrb• . were Mk lessened by the recollection thar all the
-"tont the experieseste cot many years. lb: ad- ;Ws Lr silt a OTON broaeht up the Morniten of the Com•
Ildeti trouble of tiltse day., all the dangers of the coun-
t° the li4te Cita 'Ott tjoiniusuder m the 'edicts of Supply, sod tique sod Means idm 1112.1.11i0CS

-i,) .r.l

--1

. ~:'

•
PAICE

try, were derived from this mimics; and thet on the
decision of the Awn depended mach oldie public
welfare, and the liberty of the subject. The more
these consitiendions pressi.d eons hie Imagination,
the snore he felt his 'liability to do that justice to
his subject which itsimpurbstice twinned. Before he
came to the consideration of what Iseleou Id su built as
his opinions to the Howe, he begged Neve to say a
few words on the personal mouses by which he wa4
influenced on this occasion. It told been hit intro-
tion, early in the &Awn, to give e sinsi!ar
to that he now rose to fulfil: and it was only through
the over-persuasions of uw Hon. Friend behind
him, whooprged most cogent reasons to the con-
trary, that he had, for a short period, postponed,
that intention. Postponed it he had, fur tea:inns of
weight, at the time, but he had never tbrnidoned it.
His reason for stating this now, was, from having
heard, end expecting, hereafter, to hear wadi un-
founded calumnies as to his motives fur churing the
time and ,peritei for proposing the measure, when
an Hon. Bart. (Sir F. Burdett) could not he in his
place in the House to take a part in the discussion:
Besides chi., it was well known to those ....bons it
was his pride and honour to represent, what Were hie
sentiments on the subject of Parliamedtary Reform.
and they were entitled to expect froth bins the pet.
sett motion, as the bare performance of his duty I.
them. In the events that had taken place slice the
determination of the House on the Scheldt Expe-
dition, at which time he had originally poitpoised
his intention; mad, in the existiog irritation of the
public mind, he could see no cause 10 stop short
in his course- Oia the oontniry;,, he was thereby
rather induced to accelerate hat object, as the
most probable means of .allaying that irrita-
tion, and restoring perfect trangoillor. Were
his proposition attested to, and a Iteform of
the Representation adopted. by which the House
would be more identified with the people, then, in
his opinion, they could hear netting of that dis-
content which now so unfortunatt:y prevailed. In
proceeding With his porpoise, it sersid not be ne-
cessary ter him to eats? ism • detail of the evils
arising out of the present system. There were in
the Hon-e seventy persons, the no 'liners of Ein.ough.
Proprietors. end not the Representatives of the
People. but of the individuals who. by the decay
of populous places into uninhabited tracts, had
obtained a property. which thus enabled them to
send :Member.' into Parliament. The evils arising
from this were too universally acknowledged; and,
indeed, after an offer was made to prove them at the
bar of the House, they must be admitted as indisput-
able. ft was therefore unnecessary fur him to take op
the time of the House be dilating upon the subjech
These evils were two-fold : ist, Rouen Boroughs.
without property, and uninhabited; by sending
Members to Parliament, tended to disfranchise •
great portion of the people. And, ed, other places.
teeming with wealth aad population, did not sena
Members to Parliament. To these two main
• points might be added seyenti others, which he
should hereafter come to notice. But Before this
he would say a few words on the mode of proceed..
ing he had to recommend. The necessity of Reform
was admitted on all hands: and all men also agreed
on the dread of any sudden or violent reformation.
He flared such an event as much assay one could;
and, however sanguine he might be of success, even
in • plait of his own suggesting, yet he thought it
ought to undergo the scrutiny and revisioo of •
Committee. to consider fully and maturely
the state of the representation, and to suggest
such a mode of Reform as they thought would
Le most likely to promote the public weal. la
this stage of the question it could only be ex-
petti-d from him to state what plan, iu his opinion,
it would be most advisable for the Committee to
pursue. He hied stated what were the principal
evils which required immediate remedy. and he
would also state in what that remedy might consist.
The greatest of all evils wee the nomination of de..
coyest Boroughs—to remedy this he would look to
the ancient Constitution, mid had no. change or in-
novation to propose. It sena welt knihr that among
our ancestors the practice had prevailed of relieving
decayed Boroughs from the load of sending Mem-
bers to Parliament, by distranchisiog them. The
same might be done now, and the Coostitu-
non, injured by the prevalence of soda Boroughs.
required that it should be done. Could any man
&fend their existence ? was it of less ill effect on
the constitution that Old Sarum should submit
to the nomination of a peer, as that Aylesbury
rhoulil submit to bribery ? No ! for in the
decisions of the House on the disgraceful Conven-
tion of Cintra and the diraurons campaign of
Walchcren, they saw the same effects arising front
the one as from the other..—(ffear ! hear !I—He
proposed that alt nomination Borosp,hs should be
abolished, It Was not from purchased places that
the duller seta to be apprehended. it was from the
its the. nomination of Members which
was eXtended over them as long ea they sat in the
House. lime. then. was +h.-constitutional remedy
aott tbe only diecetty to be encountered would be,
is mmertititting what boroughs came under the de-
ectifilibri of Ploinioefion Boroughs. For this, the
..es *diet of !etetu Offered the best criterions In the
last' there appeared 30 returning each two members.
and having so greater number of voters than eti fur
.each boso:4h. Many of these vote's, were the
agents or servants appointed by the Proprietor.
for the purpose of deciding their iiifluence in the
'scale. • Such boroughs c;uld easily be distinguish-
ed by the'Cominittee, and their disfranchisement
effected. Nottimitiois was to he coast e.destinginalia
ed from represehtatimt. The b.isa end foundatioe
of repridsent.tion must be in property sad pnpulo.
boo ; end. therefore, when he found "My aii
uuia-
babited 'piaci!, and no prdswey but ohm pertained
to this scary night of nounnatioa, he could nut con-
sider he member retest-mil for such a place as the
true reure.eistriive of the people. Our smceatot.,
in ill their plans for the representation of thus
people, had flied that for real property iu count:lea

1s t6t IVeehokly anti that of personal property in
barge towns in the inbabitento of houses. He would
leave it on these principlei, without alteration ; ex-
, tpt that, in counties, he would add copyhold pro-
perty, and give the copyholder, pro taste,. an equal
right to vote as was now possessed by freeholder's.—
Property must, and would, have its weight, in spite
twine of philosophy or popular fury, and is any
change that could be devised, that must be taken
as !he foundation. But, whether he succeeded in
°Staining the appointment of liCointnittste or not.,
or whether he got his plan adopted, he could see nu
• objection to this part of it,, and to bring in a bill to
eefranchise copyholdirs, aod give them, pro Nato,
fie same rights in counties as freeholder*. In lo-
}mice's plecea he would leave the right of voting
as our ancestors hie done—iii the inhabitants of
Fo•tees plying tax* He wa. aware that his plan
del n.,t posse,' nll tike facilities of theory ; but it
was recommended by being of true English growth,
and in baste, superstructure, and form, entirely
according .to the Bullish Constitution. In the
northern partiiu Scotland, there must be a greater
innovation titan he had proposed for the South, or
else she people of that country would not be re-
presetited. The hest mode he could think of
edepting was to assimilate it to England, and give
tile right of voting to freeholders in counties. He
a. nOtt now return to the consideration of the dis-
fraaehisernent of decayed boroughs, and could see
no constitutional objection to that measure. either
front the practice of our ancestors or the dread
of inoovation. The most important part of this
• to, iii was, in how far the proprietors of these
bermighs were citified to compensation upon a
• taking place. He conceived that the pet).
pie had a right to repossess themselves of their own
property without granting any compeasatioe at all
but
•yet, 'when he considered the facilities that
would be the cousequence of a contrary course, he
must recotninetel the principles of paying the value
e( what they held to the prevent pose loon.. In such
instances prodigality was economy, and it would
enable the people without riot, confusion, or tumult
to regain their privileges. He bad, in stating this.
Ire part of his plan avoided anticipating the (dice-
tons which might be urged to it. and pimply
sketched the outline, reserviug to himself a future
•oppertu•tity of an-wering say remarks that might be
made uoou it. Ile now came to the application of
tee member. relessed froin disfranchised boroughs
to populous piacee Franz the researeh he hid
made, lit could not yet accurately ascertain
their nuinle r; but, whatever it might be, he would
apply them to the most pupa:out [metal the court.
try at present unrepresented.—There were aroaud,
and to the north of fiefurd-street. 400,006 people
unrepreseuted. To these. to Birmisighaini Sher-
. field. Jilinchester, Ice. he sentil.l allot the suffrages
let lease Irons Gstton, Old Sarum, and the sub-
marine proprietors of St. Mares, &c. He would then
go on applying other members, in similar manner
released from Burgage Tenures. Rotten Boroughs,
its. to the Jargest sad best inhabited counties. ac.
cording to their extent, felting the election in the
householders paying parochial and other taxes.
Thi; would remedy the evil without innovation, or
the penpinsidou of any bold but ieeffectual theory.
Od the subject of the Scots representation, he was
leas able to suggest any unobjectionable immediate
anew or remedy, than for she country with which •
he was better acquainted ; but he could see no-
thing uliconstitational in assimilating it to England.
If, however, any commie entered into between the
two countries, either eepress, or implied. rendered
this impracticable. he called on the House to do
.wisest was within their reach. and at least to reform
themselves.--(llear !) Yet he could not see. but
if the measure was advisable, that the united legi-
sletiere of Perlininent might not extend to Scutleutel
also. As for Ireland, train the bete modification of
it. representation, he had the less wish to bring for-
ward any measure of reform. But even there.
there Were anise Boroughs jp the norninetioo of the
rich and powerful, which lie could desire to see re-
duced into a correspondence with his general
system. Soil Boroughs were the bane of the con-
stitution. and produced the worst species of Go-
vernment, a second-hand oligarchy. with the forms
of a free. and the spirit of an arbitrary Govern.
ascot. having thus concluded What he had to say
OA the two great end leading points with which he
sat out. he begged have to offer a few words on the
other topics to which he had alluded. as connected
with his subject. The first of these was, what, in the
opinion of =toy Gentlemen, was of as great ion-
pounce as say other part. He meant the dura-
tion of Parliaments. Ou every consideration lie
ha.l been able to give this point, he wa. the more
convinced that it was of enormous difficulty and
involving the utmost consequenees. The Seidel).
Ina Parliaments appeared to remove the Repr -sta-
teliest too for from the coatroul of the peoples while,
ea the other hand, 'tunnel Perliainenni had the el.-
_ _

fret of keeping th;ltepresentatires less acquointed
with the business they met to transact; the nature
ads, &entices required of them, and the proper
infortistion to 'noble them to decide wisely for the
good of the country. Between these extremes he
would prefer thetriennial Parliaments. Brit still the
difficulties were immense ; sad unless the present
'ode of election sad of rein!' was altered, the
shortening the duration of Parliament to three
years must be attended with the most mischievous

itrecto. With reno.et to returning Members. mid
voting by distr:cts, diereses+ a very wide difference.
To the first he foul insuperable objections ; while
he highly approved of the last. To illustrate his
meaning. he would suppose. for instance, that the
County or/ Hertford was divUled into four districts,
and each district was to return a Member; the con-
sequence would be, that the four principal towns
overbalancing, in the number of freeholee:#, the
district of country around them, would return the
Members at if they were Boroughs. lint no evil
could result from toting by districts ; ou the con-
trary, it would lave tomb ex Bose, and en site many
men of the first talents to become candidates fur
*ems io Pariisenent who were now prevented from
sluing so, by the heavy ezpenve attendant on NU
Mecums. The ohj..ctinus to this mode of voting
roust be null. as the Sheriff could easily hike tilt.
votes. The lion. Gentleman then lorielly recsm-
tulated the grounds over which he had gone.—
lie bad rectums:mobil an 415e:rice to the int-
• luit system of yreetmld votes in eoirrity elections,
ily giving copyholib-r.; sintilir rights to freehold-
/ erg. He had squad foi the th;frauchisemeut of
•

rotten boroughs; and the application of the Mein.
bees thns let loose to populous plaeca not now-re-
presented He had desired, that, iu Towns, ice.
all resident householders
.paying taxes should have
votes, and he had been in favour of triennial Pm-
. fitments, with the accompailying elteritiou iffthe
mode of election, by voting in districts. There
was still another measure he had to recomniend,
and that wail, to reduce the number of Placemen
arid Pensioners, without responsibility, in Perha-
merit. He trusied, whatever might be the fate of
his present motion,a bill would shortly be brought in
to iceninplish so desirable en object.-.-(Hear
Aerie .11—He was aware the subject on whic:i he
bed so long addressed them, from the number of
times it hid been disenoseal and consequent want
of novelty, could not lay chum to their greatest at-
tention, yet he trusted the nature of the times
would insure it a full and mature deliberation.
They must have moderate reform, or a military
despotism—Meer hear ! Afar)—He repeated.
that if the people were refused that winch they laid
claim to as a right, they would attempt to regain
it by force, and thee the Refocus would be ob-
tained or a military despotism estibliahed. If they
refused, the Sun of Britain would sink in eternal
night; if they *greed to the proposition made to
them, it would rise in a morn of more perfect
glory. Ile concluded by mimeo the appointment
of a Committee to inquire into the state of the
Representation; to consider the most 'effectual
means of remedying the abuses ill the mine ; and to
report with their opinion thereon.
Mr. Davits Gtocer felt, that, in taking opens
him to an,wer the Honourable Gentleman. he put
himself into a situation to require the utmost
alnlgence of the House. He could assure them,
that, undeserving as his observatious might be of
their attention, they were the best he could offer,
after a very anxious investigation of the subject.—
In tome of them did he mean any thing offensive
or per.onal to the Honourable. Gentleman, who, in
his plan of reform, he must do him the justice to
say, had produced a theory the most moderate alio
retioull of ally he had ever heard. The questm
now agituted was, whether tke House should con-
sist of persona bound and connected with the
country they represented by the strongest ties. or
of a number of delegates from all places, bound to
attend to the whitus, passions, and caprices of those
who sent them. (Here the Iluiroursble Gentle-
man went into a drfiuition of the functions of the
King and House of Peers. of which, from the great
prevalence of noise in the Gallery. we lost all Inn
the latter part.) The King was the head of }he Exe-
cutive Government. The House of Peers, the he-
reditary representatives of the highest orders, having
a strong community of interests with the country.
—We knew nothing of cat., of nehility, and en-
joyed all the hearths of this noble body, without
any iconveniences arising from their beidg of that
description. Their children were blended wish the
mess of the nation, and from the nation, its any
respect. they could have no different interests. The
next branch of the Constitution was in that House.
It consisted of the Representatives, not of the De-
legates of the people—hi happy mixture, partak-
in.", of both these descriptions. Were it altogether
of representatives, then it would participate too much
with the House of Lords, and on the other hand were
it altogether of delegates, it could not possibly
co-exist with the oilier branches of the Constitu•
Lion; (hear. hear;) fur, sithject to every turn of
popular opinion, and implicitly obeying the ca-
prices of the people, a Howie so conttructrd must,
of necessity, enjoy all the sytupathies of the sta-
tion. and soon overturn every other authority.
This was so matter of speculation, but one the in-
minable result of plain primiples ; it was illus-
trated by the example of a neighbouring country. i
There the executive government was held to
be the first authority, bet soon the whole feel-
ings of the country went with their delegates
in the national assembly. who, possessed of this
power soon overthrew all that was above them. Our
own history produced a sin,iier example in the
Long Parliament, which. by becoming the de- -
legates:of the people, eaded as all such must end,
in a contest with the Crown, and uitimatey in a
military despotism. This mode of drlcgatilig a
Parliament then, was neither ciiiisodent to the spi-
rit of the Constitution, nor consistent with the hap.
piness of the country. Thus far he had gone on
the general prineple. In arguing, that a little
more mixture of delegation in the House of Com-
mons might not be ai:vairtageou., he felt that he
did not stand on commis so severe: for without
enrolling the fact. that a entailer number of bur-
guuge tenures, close boroughs. &C. might be berm-
Mild, it was impossible, in. a calculation" of
that kW, with the different views Gentlemen
might take of it, to come to so accurate a decision.
The other side might be taken with as good chance
of in tint si lung the position ; and when time decisions
of the liaise: on the Ceara Convention and Espe.
dition to Waleheren were so bandied about. as
proofs of corruption, by the mob, amid those feel.
ings too much syrnputhised in by several Gentle.
men in that House, it might he rather conclusively
argued that there was too much delegation ill the
composition of the [louse. If, however, it was ac-
corded to our most able writers, as asserted by them,
that men, as soon as elected fur any particular
place, because the representative of the whole na.
nue, here was an utter bar to the principle of de-
legatioi . As the House was now constituted.
there was • virtual representatiou of the whole
nation. The army, navy. and inns of court,
though they did. not retnrn members, were
all, from the mode in which the elective franchise
was now distributed, virtually represeuted.—
As for Boroughs, they contributed to this, sad it
would scarcely be contended by any of the Gen-
drawn of that side, that in the Members return-
ed for the biroogh of Tat istock, for instance,
either in the last or present Parliament, that bo-
rough had made an unfortunate choice. The lion.
Gentleman (Mr. Brand) referred to the practice of
our .iiiiestrirs. but he would prefer the more tnu-
deru exa.uples to those of au anterior period. For
.what was the House in those ancient days to which
the Ii n. Gent. referred for authorities? It was
'oily railed to make the grant' necessary fur the vier-
vier of tee King, and they had no other mode of
obtaiiiiiig the redress of their grievance*, but by
rr fusing thus., grams till their petitions were com-
plied mail. Then they hail lm it power of origi-
i uatnig or taking other measure..., awl any

coltiperison of these, with the present times, must
be richtnelous. There was another topic. Tune
had a wonderful effect in getting the machine of
Government to move .with ease, The Hon. ras-
tleanau might find, ds others had d me, that there
was no anbusement more entertaining than that
of training Condiments ; but when his design
Came to be put in practice, he would discover, like
many other projectors, tint the parts were not to
be moved. It was thus that these kinds of pleas
upon the Continent, and indeed in every quarter
of the globe, since the earliest records of history,
had been found on trial to miscarry, and hail
therefore constantly subsided into the must simple
of all fo-ins of Government—despotism. As Isis
arguments hail gone altogether against change, he
would not enter into detail, or endeavour to point
out the difficulties the Hon. Gentletuan's scheme
would have to encounter out of doors, fur lie would
not suppose there was any Gentleman.in the House
so senseless as to join the ridiculous cry. The
charge of teats being bought and sold Wad been
magnified into a most alarming evil. He did not
deny that it was an abuse, but would any man
undertake to point out to him any great body
free front all abuse? Neither could the nutuber
of places bought or sold be so great as was bla-
zoned, it could not exceed ten or twenty at most.
And what reform could utterly prevent money
from obtaining a seat in that House? He ques-
tioned snitch if even, in the most populous places,
applied, to be sure, in a different way, it had not
the !rime effectoind demo goes who had obtained
the confidence of their fellow-eitintens, by selling
their influence, abused the purity of election. He
could not believe that any man botteit a seat
there to make a market of it. if he did, he could
not lay out'his agency in a worse bargain. They
were mostly purchased by persons connected with
the West Indies, and on substantial injury, but
rather pod, arose from it. if the practice was
carried to any extent, the evil wonlil be a cry-
ing one, and demand reilr..es.-..Same few per-
sons, out of door., shoss held the• idea, that we
could not be worse. To these he would only
say, look around—look at other nations, where
milit try conscription., and executions. acid justice
illoulininistered.prtvailed. In Britain, after main-
taining a contest 'for eighteen years, iu which
Europe had been swept uw.sy in rain, we had no.
thing to complein of het the accumulation of
taxes ; a heavy burden indeed, but one that might
well be borate. when we looked at the state of other
'canneries. After all this, we Iloorished in public
works, its harbours, in improvements, in. the art..
in agriculture, in population, in maunfactures.
and in commerce. superior to what we !Weever be-
fore been. It was madisess. then. to represent us
as a falling station, and to put all this prosperity
to risk, because the House . had committed one
of its Members ; or even had they exiendtd their
privileges a little brassied their bounds, in one
invitees.. and inimisouesl an individual for a libel.
Ile would not therefore take the first step proposed
by the lionourelde Grath-men. even thotult it
were innocent. and probibly benrfici d ; fur he knew
not what might follow. Others night not lie C41:1-
tent with triennial, hut wish to redoes Parliaments
to annual, or even lunar period.. (4 Largo la .
Others bight t'.,iek the vote of Frecholilere ells!
Copyleilelcrs too limited, and go the length of
universal autfrage. thereby ititrutlucing delegettnn„
and the consequent overthrow of the Constitution.
Ile then recapitulated his arginuente, unit col..
eluded by expressing his opinion. that the appoint-
ment of the Cornelius e sots wholly inexpedient.
Mr. Nisei. supported the motion, which was riot
to innovate but renovate the Cmistitutiott, which'
time had injured. Ile entreated the lloti,e to thew
a Ilispn.itim, to eoneslivie the people by retinal.
Lord Alturns spoke against the motion. lie
went over grounds wally similar to the last
Speaker hest one. With the British constitution
he was satialieJ, and he wanted no change. The
Hon. -Mover wished them to revert to the cnnsti.
tutinn of their ancestors or what they supposed
tr.s their connitution, lout lie challenged him to
,hew any period of their history when such a con-
stitution existed. There was no such point of
tree, and it was merely ideal in the head of framers
of new coustitutions. lit America the plait of a new
constitution, beautiful, and smooth, had been tried
and had failed, and would his lion. Friend say thee
either that or his own plan were calculated to make
the British nation greater or happier than they were
at this moment? The Haus as now constituted,
spoke the general sense of the country. and he
would not consent to enter utwn a tract that might
leis/ to a total chaage, either by imbuing dui.
vernal suffrage, or any of the wild plans of lute so
mischievously promulgated. If the people were
&satisfied. they hail the remedy in themselves, as
the Parliament was the creature of their own cre-
ation. Frain these and many other considerations,
lie should vote against the Motion.

Sir Junta Nit-svroae contended, that as they
took away the right • from Aylesbury, upon the
ground of minute, upon the same wound could
they take away that which was nomin illy the re•
presentation of the people, but really the nomi-
nation of a fee individuals. His Noble Friend
(Lord Milton) had alluded to the Government of
America, in a manner in which he could not agree
with him. Ile could not agree that the Atuerieni
Government had totally failed when he hilked to
the moderate expenditure, to the light taxes
imposed upon the people, and to the flourish-
ing condition of the country in general, he
could not phrceive the symptoms of had govern-
ment. It did not follow that if the Rouse went
into Committee they should therefore adopt every
part of the plan which his lion. Friend proposed,
wither was it necessary that in their endeavour to
Reform they should tear down the Constitution.—
House had last year recognised the principle
of Reform which it was now called upon to ►elin-
yuish.—(/Isar, hear.)—lt hint recognised it in
agreeing to tile motion of au Ilon. Friend of hie
(air. Curweis) though the Minister had contrived,
in its progress through the 'louse, to fritter away
the useful parts of the Bill.—(Near, hear.)—lle
thought it woukl be a icreat improvement to take
the poll by districts. 1 he only advantage perhaps
which Ireland obtained by the Union, Vt:t4 the ins-
provement in her representative system ; the effect
V; ill certainly goot, though he ili..appvived and
limented the means. Man) clva ii.l4e; word.] be
derived 1.e.0 duiud Coin 11411:1..' iCid::4l City

conic! not obtain is a discassiou upon a la
immediately proposed.
• Sir J. PL'Lrsnay trfalatained that a r.pres,
Sion of the people, completely ttidetwinlent of 1.1.
Mown, would inevitabl, introduce .lb9lblUte
aracy. No moan could .serioncly entertain t!1 ;
otthe httsloeas of the Ciovernm-nt going on,
the Crown was permitted to A I/toper
IVhen he looked to the actual emortmeoces of
present ayatein, when he sow lihetty and hAO:iirlt,
more widely estentlel than even the ima:inatimi,
of theorists could hare suggested hr fe:t
• incumbent ou him to be careful of any chat*
which might restrict or impair such advautages...
The isrimiple upon which the Itcroftn was it I,rt.„
cent proposed, seemed to him a most eXtrAOrdlll.ll'
Oil?. itefortu was said to be nee: scary,
the tValcheren Eapeiiition had faded. tie did not
see how the cuethostance of a Rcrorm, or sat, ham in the repr„,,„t,onn, would en .),1! fllinetcre
to conduct extreattio:i•, or to to ttroni trunts
sticeeabfully that, at prc•ent. Ilitonry ptov.4l th..a
the people were wilin4 to go to war a 3 their
preSelltAtieed• 1:1;011 the %011,11., 1"0::%Ii4.1111g
form at toil moment unnecciciry,.vOil,:!t ring Wit
•if it was adopted it wculd nn!y 1.••(1 w2y.
more dangerOtia innovations,' he shotli‘l ,y11.),e tVt
motion. Tile people were, he was perauallel, 2;,
Welled to the Government now; hut the attempt t.
go from perfection to perfection would introdtics
a confucioh sod mistake, the consequences ofahiri
no man could calculate. •

Mr. Alderman JACOB was surptised that
Waleheren Exited tieu rhoold be adduced as a rt
son for Adopting Reform in the Government. Ever
supposing that sit the smell Boroughs had beet
done away before the vote upon that question, th,
deeisibn of the House would still hot, e been Itt:tdi
the same. The best way to doninish the correolto,
was to dimiuisn the eitionoses of the nation. lle to
static' it ataxy ill strioua individeels who were rt.
turned for close liGrotiglei, and expressed his deft(
urination to vote agnitt.t the in..tion.

Mr. Smarts* &mane could not agree that tl,
opinion of the lintire, in any given eartr, 11:15 P.M
tr4rV to the opinion of the people ; there must hr
difference of sentiment, beta/teas different indivi
duals, upon almost every subject, coil melt sta. to
ant to conclude that the majority was aith
Ile would ask the advocates of reform tit what
Viol of their Instory was the Constitution better the!
it was now ?. He could not but think that P,s.•
who talked so much about allagea Chile had rni
read It. There was no petiod to which he could
pliht, in which the reprerents;ion sus so popular
at present. The uumher of eltetors vras •;
creased. In the rein at Henry the Stx:h, the
of election was conflited to
h..lilers; on they might form some •
th.‘
lineation uudrr that, when they remembered,
lie the reign of (,)tiren Anne -tos. was egnivi.luo
121. 'Threw (;entl:rneti situ complame.l mo,
a' the weight if twice., lid not rt;year to
at the same time they trued the ts (tale thry
theimielree alto. 11.. e told with truth unirtn. tiro
.11/ far as he lisil tilt•••rted, it was 1:le a! udy of
!rouse that the taxes should pees.; /11/1 hole a 11111119111,1,
011 the lower orders. But &twitting all tht,
against the flimsy of I::ostitions. tlt4 reinto,
which the Ilo.tourable Clcutlentan proN:ied
oat he satisfactory to the few trer,ro,., ti-to /rot
petitioned. nothing would rtati-ey them but So.
Frtriek Burl Ws OAR, which ate hO:c short
rut of Res
~r 4usr,,g„. :rne escrierim
!brio had already fr•es made 13 France
r•el, and he wets surprised that the
i; 110,114 cool.' have siid thht it li id sae; et.led is
met ten. lie (Mr. S. !court,.) knew a ;:eutle:aaa
whose authotizy colll.l be depended on, who Intl
told hint that no reputable unties/nen would per.
mit a repkientative to enter his shop; he ass
persuaded that if runny of t4e eon:lent pernirtri
who had once supported the measure of
host lived to see the fate of theft modern ropt-o•
nient, they would have altered their sentimisw.
The real question was whether property or 'moils is
should decide? and he being of opitiien that pre•
party rather than hers should predominate,
and taking into consideration the teinper of tiro
times was prepared to give his opposition to the
motion.

Mr. WARM,. defended the principles and cons
duct of Sir F. Burdett. The inotmii which he lied
i•ropo,ed consisted of two propositiot:s—otie to
shorten the duration of Parliaments, and the ether
to (to away such parts of the Repre!ent.iticit as had
become the property of indiiiduals. It was hie
wssli iltit alt freeholders, who were directly fowl,
should have • voice in the election of a :liertilwi
fur. irthere was no independence among tlio.c whit
were directly taxed, where conli it be enwetel to
be found ? The lion. Gentle.naii opposite had els
bided to the small number of petitions; but ht
him "ilt for a i.e.', days, and he would ice that
they were not vet exhaust-J. It had bred
said, that the Elective Body was touch ens
larzed ; but it was not enlarged in propooi
lion to the increase of wealth, IFr. and the pros
plc could not he lepliy taxed, if they were lilt
rightly represeu'ed. It could not be disputed that
frequent Parlismcnts were ee.piiroil by the Coos
stitiation. Here he went through the horny of
Rah intent front the reign of Edward 111. to the
eislal.lWiment of the elatetalaiul act in the reign of
(tenrge I. which he reprobated as an int..ingentiil
of the Cun.tiiutlou, and an *min.( and urbi:ratV.
est rtion of on'wer. Ile quoted the hulhorq of
Lord Chid' Jin•tice Itlay.uothl,, who said that &
standing army and IA:in:MI Parham. tit net, tu•
vertilde and fit sustrumenis to support a-. 111 othrra
%lien the Hon. Gentlental had enid Ott thro
taxed themselves i.e *ell as the people, be seemed
40 Itnye forgotten the immense stuns which were
every floy Inv.shed upon Menlo: rs oh' tint
it Reform wu. to take pace, it would 111111.111 Vl.' I I
corruption, and to the barter of seats fur %,ri,ei•
ships.--(11e-e lie erg for question becalm, •,1.•
cal Mot he sat down.) •
Mr. WIIITDOLEAD said, that he is uir',l state 31
shortly as hr could his reasons liar etr,eolg io I!,'
issoti for a Committee. It was a 11)0'01111h .!:
hid olen berm nisde, which earned with it I''.
author.ty 4 peat name., and to
uumb-r if the Members of that %elf'
V011,4111e Nia% is motion ,0 w hi. n )i..
4tl which hi.• WAS 41 our
!root el earryiO4, av 11,,z h‘•l at 0111) •. .1 .n.l• WI
11.11.1trf-s list ii ..;i:L I,o* 1'

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the subject of Parlimeett tarY Reform, they all
spas ,
eatertswititrv,
bnuntdooperecolp,:omotoitoofe hiso
t H °can °nude: bu
tu
Friend. (Hear ! hear !) Complimented, however,
es be was by the Gentlenten I opposite, he did not
tine that they
was had dealt lately with hint It
sortie to say, that his Houourable Friend had
brought forward the present motion in consequence
of the fa
failure of the Walcheren expedition. It was
his
to have brought it forward before, but
l
it his (Mr. Whitbread'a) request he had postponed
it; „shell, therefore, they said that it had sprung
out of the Walcheren eepeslition and the committal
of Mr. Gale Jones, be proclaimed, upon the part
of his frieud, that it was not so; it was can•
celled owl determined on before, and not influ.
eared by such occtirrenes. The question of Par-
ennentary Reform had long occupied that House,
he himself had witnessed its rejection, and coutri.
bated to it. *import in different instance.' ; he had
toted for it iti 91, he had voted for it in 97, and if
he had brco in town he would have voted fur it last
year, upon Sir F. Burdett's motion. The Paella-
;seater Ireland had agreed in the year 99 to go into
Committee upon the subject, tad it was Wenn"
that seemed the proceeding most agreeable to the
Home, ;hat hr now moved for a Committee. Mr.
pia, it was true, had changed his oilinion as to the
expediency of Parliamentary Reform. Butt he
charged it not front n conviction that the theory
Was bid to itself, but. that the .situation of the
yea, the feeling" of mankind, and ether extria-
sic circumstances, were such as to render it inex-
pedient at the particular crisis when it was pro-
pried. r it had been said that Reform was already
and in t.. o parts of the world America and France,
sad that it had failed in each ; but he,would deity
the fart of its having ever bad a fair trial. An
Ilan. G mtletnen had spoken of the characters of
Hosiers of Congress in a manner in which he had
user beard thein.spoken of before; (hear, hear ;)
toot there were many authorities as grove rs that of
the Ilan. Gent which represented them otherwise,
sad genet, that whit had here tried its America
bat succeeded.—e( Neer ! hear !)--But what hail
been tried was out Reform, it was creation; a cret-
in (ram necessity ; and why war it necessary ? Be-
tow. according to Mr. Pitt. the Parliament was
sot reformed. Ile Mr. Whibread) thought that
America did succeed, inasmuch as she was snper-
intended by a greet, a wise, and an honest cha-
ncier, inasmuch as she presented all the at mptotus
sfa aaavishing awl bappy population. But it had
beta said, that the experiment was tried in France.
Hoe was it tried there ? tee it net the want of
lt,foen, the obstinate adherence to esivtiog
abases, that bought shout the eruption, which
Tread so much rain in that country. It was;•
soil they were indebted foe the French as
well u the American war, to the same ussinsprov.
inc. unrefortnin,t; spier's, in themselves.—(/tear,
hey.!—The limb (letterman had stilted, cool.,
ilwy have lees taxaticia owlet any other apneas I
Ile (NIG Whitbread) would say, certainly yrs. even
if Ow Olaf was reeeilelley. They also thought that
sic House of COIPOintIO did out properly represent
the petals--thev who thought that the Minister
bad suffi.aeut ittiluetice to command a vote 'for an
0104 war, or an opp-e,sive purpose, mutt hope
in see such revrewatation amended, and surh in.
twice overthrown. lie animadverted in polluted
• tame wren the interposes to which the peenige
ass made oubserviesit, that of coinhatiug the In-
teen's:, and sucking the best • blood nut of
Mat armee. lie took a comprehensive view of
the eaersaiim of dome Boroupet epees the Le-
gitimate; coacluilliez. that though Nome great
and aLie ii.e.ll might hare been scurried
hough Orr wrens, yet it was mu unjust appru-
pima of functions that 'should be public and
rural. Betides, though• that way would he.
slott up a,..10.4 the poavetwors of talent, a Intadred
ethers sonild he opened. He thought there was a
great indisposition in the people of England
towards the House of Commons • en inilis
glitch had grown oat of a Of improper la7-tns
slid unjneilieble proceedings, upon the pert of the
Home It Wei not surp•ising that there were not
Lure peWlOll5 Upon this oceasioa ; they were at
ail haws but little attended tu ; auJ of late they
were oat only treated is:thou' attention, but with.
sat respect. No person. he contended, bed a right
*compensation for those Boroughs, the aatronage
alvvit they would lose by a Reform. He thought
theatal
;M:ell.tnettnical;,Striet was now more n*ecesitee re.than
;vie. expedient, and it could
Ist he attempted while the House was formed as it
seat
of pre.ebt. It had been said that the trufllek
honesty would be found a losing concern, be.
lined it; but it was of very little consequence to
• fie conutry, if its Rei pre*e relives sold theiernaeuls,
whether they bron....lit tnuchner little, If the House
•
.e.shilectidtia such a intoner as to obtain the cen-
t Lieu
say mthe parole, they would SO benit cheerfully
burden,, and it was in order to bring about
into
the
rrstamdi:g, that be resolved to vote
going Co, mince.
lordliteoe spoke in explanatioe
• csAolp.lintir ruse, he aid, with sincerity, to de-
;H.
leavel on the great question before them.
hi it to
sk_(brit poster ty to alter
art,"'"vt: I. Inch had been earned ou by Partin-
roamituted as themselves; lie would not.-
11,„ might lie et
pore:,
sawn
ra renniftesices where the
sel before tinny t*inet they
ought to dwell
• Fesimat
itenteredn into such a tremendous
*re ,t,, It led 'lined that the public
• Tan, a _ lie did not believe it.—
ir,riei:oll be 4.
ale" men who were not sli•intea
tieuine to de,711 °Onion, and wished for the
nbP tall lengthy"
the 'structure, they would go
*wow.of She passage its Sir James
lies, on the French Revolution,
ref 1, erioirir.ir to " form Pathament,“The Crown
Rr tel... use Peers may be corrupt, bat
rut I .113 e of Commons. amid the others
dust in the scale." Ile was one ed.
e.44l,iur▪ it.etani 00,1 i wish the oilier branches of the
.1„A, . he s duet, or to conriltate the sample
• 40.1.1:ralee. Ile thee took a view of the .'sample
ti.on _ a.revioltitsoils. and coitteuded that what-
,.
h mos,. "4„7...5. had Inst, they had not gained
nmenetze now held out by these
era. is. that they hate the greeters! Ye-
s
• I
in it thee !are mod te-
e
see ,„ (.•
"1„Lle hit gond hate runs fore-
eir e! Is, that they atlai:re the ori.
• lithore CI the Realm, that all thee want

is a Reform in this Rouse ; su it wait with the on-
Innovator Luis of France; buit when they got him
into their power, that love was firgotteia. and he
duel a martyr to thou ambition. and to hie cre-
dulity. Ile would ask the nea.e.sity for their em-
barking on this ores sea? lie theta took a view of
the several arituitieuts that had been adduced in
favoor of the Motion. and concluded by saying it
should have his negative.
Mr. Tie au F.Y, in a speech replete with argument,
comended. that Parlioluent most undergo WM.
Reform before until yearn. He did not ',peak for
the sake of popularity. it had fallen into aeh hands
he would nut have soy thing to do with it.—( Hear,
leer.)—lf they were to ray all freeholders and
householders should be electors, they wouhl say.
we must hate generabwantragie; end if that was
Wonted. they would want that the women .should
be pat on the same footing still that could Hut
satisfy, they woidal apple for the same tight for
their chililreii.—(flrer. hear.)—The applause he
Viailtki WWI that of the thiisking and consillentte
melt of the country, •u4l those he knew thought
seem Reform was necessary, and were not satisfied.
He brlieveil they hail conletuot furthe Howie of
Coiniumit.—( I leer, heard—lie stated the votwon
the inquiry utter the Walchereo Expeditiou. e+
atilleient to comae Smelt an opiuiew amongst nary en-
lighteued people. Under those considerations hr
would vote for the House going into a C ttet.
.Mr. W. Saint contended tbat !Reform was
Decensury.
Mr. litawsotrev said, the question b-fire the
House wee one of tke most Serious nature, sod he
entered into it with feelings of the greatest anxiety.
The Constitution had been the means of dispen-
sing the greatest happiiiess, winch more than tver
tiny Governmentihad &isle before. If the motion
was fur any will theory or raid cal rxfortn, he.would
be the first to oppose it. He would oak, what in-
stitution was there in this world that time had not in-
troduced defects• into? Would the RI. ani.G,rat.
Canning. not show there w. re saute defecta that
had crept in, when every Member iu that Haute
had acknowledged, and every matt out of doors
was sensible of it ? Could liSteling to the gamines;
be derogatory to the honour 1.1 the Huai*. oh Cu o-
mens, when fur half a century they were iu the ha-
bit of discussing it ? It begin veal; Lord eh illlaing
was pressed by •liia son, and acktatarledged hy Mr.
Fox. It had been said a specific plan crowt to be
proposed. That would only create .. debate; the
best mode is his opinion was a Coininittee, where it
could be fairly discussed. He then took a vie,. of
the different modes that had been proposed for Re-
form, which might be taken hr.) consideretitnt
under distinct heads, in the Committee. But
of all grievances, he thought the sale of s-ata
the worst. The sale of any public situation
bit th,,t of legislation ; elite, of all others. that
could not he endured. lie thought. th it if a
strong res..ltation had bee,' entered Into lost ses-
rime:. when I.sail; traffic was avowed in the iluti4e.
it woold have airevented the prevent disco:debt...—
(Ilew. hear.) He could not agree with his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Whithreael,) as to boroughs. It
would be severe, if the Croon or the Peers should
be rotated of their prepigatieea. The Crown has the
.power of embodying eorpoiatione; and maul tire
Hew/la:inn. it star put in force ; but to the 'acacia
reign. a• nail ,•. err been acted firth The Cruen
lufit'therightlo wyci bat wus esbe away: It tot
a right to make a Peer. but•it could not nrimake
one, It might be different as to the tenure burgh-
ers. The only tionger was„ where to brain. mid
shere to stop.—(hear.)-i—lia all free cumin les the
dott,:er had beep exealptitied, rrrta si far back as
the of Wan., the people always find their
way to posy r. without dotes away the Commas..
non, which put sit end to theit freedom. at
ssat, bat that sould aot be the case in Gies'
Britain. The Crows) it too ..prong, as also the
Lorti‘—(Hears hear, hear.)--Men of otokr-
stoottoot, wealth. and properly. were not seta-
fled with the conduct of that House; but suppose
they went into the Committee, cud notning was
done; the well-informed would be aspi•fied. wadi
the country weld remain content. But it was
found expedient to do something, it would add to
both the satisfaction et the out and the content of
the other. (Lora cheering).
Mr. W. Warne end Lord Foliating& were
in favour of going hag a Committee; the former
Gentleman promised, at • future period.
to bring la a hill to prevent the Sale of Seats in
Parliament. •

.111 r. Boa tro replied, •nd the Flamm divided;
what there appeared for going into a Committee.
Ayes
Nees

Majnrity &pilot it
RILMURNILD AT ♦ QVAKTOR 'groat TURES
o't

COM ,110 N HALL

Yesterday, a Common Hall was held at ("build-
hall, Si. thr City, far the petrpose of considering
what measures were necessary to be taken by the
Livery, in consequence of the rejection, by the
llonse of Consmoiss, of their humble address, pr.
mien, and remonstrance, voted at the last meeting
of the Livery, in Cominon Hull ; and for the pur-
pose of asserting their rights, when legally and
constitutionally assembled. as well as to express
their sentiments %Nino the etatitlkstine attemizs that
had hien made to vilify their former procet,ongs.
By order of the LUMP Mir mt. every precantioe
was taken to prevent any p 11401 el admission to the
Hall, who was nut of the Livery. The Beadles of
the several Companies acre stationed at their re-
spective entrances; and the City Marshals, and their
men. at the main entrance. prevented eniquAli6o-.11
persons iddruding tlicuseelres. At twelve o'clock,.
the large inner gates of the Hall were thrown open,
and, 11.10/1 after one, the Lord Mayor and Sheriffs
ascended the hustings; at which time upwards of
2000 of 'lie Livery were aisernbled. The Lord
Mayor, Mend' Alderman Comb,. Messrs.
Farell, eVilleeg and Thutaip‘on, were reepre lively
green el with loud cheering, and Sheriff Atkins and
Alderman Prlett with hootaiigs and hisses. Alder-
turn Curtis and Shaw were not present.
After the CRIER had atitiouraccd the object of
the intrting. _

The LORD MAYOR came foronnl, and State I,
that he callrd them there. in coos( tptence of a 'e-
viction I.ltietl by a innobet of the pivc.y. and

Inssted that the Gentlemen timenthled would, what-
ever were the opining's of others, give th-rn a fur,
eau lid, and im
.rartial hearing.---/Loud (Tay .y*
•• Brava. bracts;" we will, we will.")
The Omit then read the requisition, with seve-
ral of the signatures, which, hit said, had many
other*: whets
Mr. Fi.ve Lt. presented birovelf. He spoke rather
in a low tooe of voice, niid was solueti•nre luau-
. dible. Hs said that they were again u•seinhled by
the I.ovd Mayor, in the heart of the empire of
Great Britain, to deliver their sentiments, on great
constitotiontil questions. in their public hall, which
preseiit.d to them the statues of their *west fleck-
ford, isiiin.rtal Chatham, and the rising one of toe
glorious Nelson, placed before them as incitements
to public good ; they were also asombled to repel
assertions and in-inuations against their motives,
ohiili had been described as charged with inalig-
stoney iitid (kik designs. He hoped. however, that.
they would meet with eoulnees, and sotter-thindedly,
every thing advanced by their oppitne:its og.iiiist
their persohal feelings, mid give to all a patient
hearing, as he hail to Inoieut, that discord had
forded persons of contrary sentiments to the hest
meeting, a pretext to publish adverse declarations;
but believed that oue feeling alone pervaded the
heart of every honest niao--nt desire to setae his
country ; and that all contrary efforts would, by
them, be looked upon with suspicion. Ile believed
'there were many worthy individuals, who &t-
-iered with hits in sentiment ; but thouitht all
would agree, that it was severe mid
,unjurtitialrl!,
' to chose the Lord Mayer and Citix-iir of Lull-
dim with a desire to subvert the constitution.
To su-li a charge, indeed, they must plead guilty.
if guilt consisted in feeling sore upon the result id
the expedition to Walcheren; er if it consisted iii
expressing their disapprobation of the shutting the
gallery of the Clouse of Cominons ; or in feeling
sore upon the conduct of Lord Caotlereegh; in-
deed, they must submit to suet indictment, if
they were even eliargA cith maintainiog o that no
ordinance of radial/mg shall be conclusive againat
their common 'rights," He read extracts from
lispeech of Lord ChancellOr Clarendon, against
the privileges claiinel by Parhoinent, and cited the
et„f of peiniierton. from which he dAuced
that privilege was a kind of power that should be
'exercised witli the nicest discretion, and not in the
way it hosl of late been used. What could they
think of the exercise riFtliis privilege, when Par,
iimeet were wrote)), libelled, both the Lords and
Camino^ by lying compared to the branches of
sr tree, which, if lopped uff, would not injure the
tree, While the root (meaning the king) remli!ted
untouched, as it could flourish as well withont
them? What retold they thiuk of that ;reat question,
it/6.4 the result was compared with what Isad
sequently bappes,e3 ? lie Orli entered upon the
question of reform, which, whenever pronoved„ bad
always been rejected by the house of Comuitis;
if proposed in time of war, 'twos ant tit to consider
it till a time of peace; if brought forward in time
of peace, the plan was bad and could not be enter-
tained ; if proposed to he referred to a Committees
then a plan should have been tutiositted ; and rf
pressed hard, I ither its pe tee or war. they bad re-
course to au:other expedient., to attack the clot ac-
ters of those oho petalled the question. He attri-.
bated Os euf.rely to the corrupt. 'Jute of Parlitse
mint, whist esteemed parliaineutore patronage am
nerior tis'ony other consideratiou. He. Wished it to
he understood oo all tiles, that they had only one
cause, the mum m iiiter it of the country, the
genesis! gond ; nod cuiscluJed with priqe.ing the
following resolutions:

Rro •Ircd—That the (ejection by the II Mir of Cout.ouoo
td oar Isis hullo Addrete, Petitioft and R••n<astrance.
appears to as a viogo. or our coati gto.l rimy at.
B&Wr ri•;Lt to stage oar couarbOubt an.l inevaoces sod to
tall Ns relief• mud redress.

Th.it seek a 'Unction is on addilioha: proof of ihe shams:
fail ivactequacy of the sepecseotaliao t.l tho. the
Commons' 'loose of Pwrii.topeot, sad none focibly &at no
oltatts the seri-1.64 of a sliced, sad sunitastial refoo is is
tbat llogonrable Hasse.

That we have viewed, with mixed sentiments el indigna-
tion, Concern, tad pity, the A,lite s of certain persons,
styling themselves " Au adjourned blecting rif,Liverynieu,
held at the limodon Tavern, the 4th of May," 01181040:6 as
the statements contained in that Addrem;, imputing to
the great body of their Feltow-Citimus, in COMMIS Mai
legally assembled, motives and designs S' to vilify mid de-
grade the Lezialatuie," to "alienate the affections or the
people front the Govcroment ;" to" produce contempt and
distrust of the House of Cotonou., ;" to " introduce an-
archy;" and to "subvert the Coestitutioo," are felse as.
sertivos, originating with individuals who derive isfluenee
sail emolument from the bear burden. of the people.
That stuougst the .1 Cares of those affixed to the tddrvss
appear' the higissteres of Contractors, of COllOlll.BOOlBOl went
Collectors of Taxes, of Plarewirn mud Place Ilunara, with
la "'Dag List of thew Agent, and Clerks, of their Depend-
ents, Cinissafies, nod 01141101.
. . . .

lila it id un.leiii.ole, that pawn, influence, threats, and
dziusions bore been enaplopid to lict.vatl upuo moil to
matte in the said AilJerids.

That whilst we duet tains ang Imputation aVdoet lbe IRO.
titres of several, who, by gross assierepreseutstioos, by arts of
the basest kind, or by demote& snitestidatiou, base been is-
duced, and compelled, tetrad their signatures to the said
Address ; it is to as • source of high coaeolatiow, that the
Adtlre.. curries within it its own refutation, consisting may
of adept ~,,, s, ansubsteatiateil, sad of catumuiss which
those s also have propagated them must know to be ground-
less

That the said Addreas appears to have foe its teat object
the rxritrinint of civil dilatations, the increase of public
ahem s, and the further and hiller participation i* the wages
of eorrupttun by unsay of those who have **lied It, and who,
taking advanta‘e of the present unhappy enniest between ar-
bitrary privilree and constitutional frvednin, have rides.
veered to custom and corrupt the public mind fur the sup-
port auJeUllill6l4lll4Ct, is place, of a ea/rapt, weak, and wicked
adininistratn n.

That is the years i 679 and tail*, seder the Wantons Go
seamiest of Charles 111. the C.ty of Luoduu, cud other parts
of the eutitry, petitioned the lima for the redress of g.:ee.
ogees sod the sitting of Perimateut

'fiat enemata Protium were permeated to His Majesty, ex-
prewive ti'JAWYCIIet of the said Kidskin'.
Than followed another. Resolution, an historical
detail of thr dispute between the' Crown and the
Route of Cognmo,:a in the 'vigil of kin Churls
11. a few yeses imetvioum to the and on
which the lb use of Cyaliiaiips expelled SW FIVICII
Wininagtou for calling in question the rights of the
subjects to petition the Rums, and to petition Par-
liament, and stating certain eircumstance, in which
the present times have souse resemblance with
thus. di)e, as to the contempt in which public
on held, and as to the isteeviity of a thritotigh
cdtt,:tinti of ahurs, and a Parliamentary Reform ;
and aii-n maintaining, ip the most micro... lie fri
the Rights of the People, atvl desentiiii; the
f, tads and Odell/es of the Comettr-Dt‘lartitioo an

►esewbling those who, io the time of tile Stuarts,
were Jenomiustvd Abhorrer+. _ _

. RAJlying. alai, to goppoit the Lane, the
Lords, rod Commons, in their Temp. -mire right.. but
uevet to gooseut to give separately to Ate to
the Lor.!s, or to the Commons, any power above
the Law, or repugrant to the principkg of our Lee
Con.titution, aud—
That notwithstanding the tej-ction of the la'e
Petition, the Livery think it their duty to give to
the House of -,Commons errry opportunity at ie.
dresaing the grietaneva of the pet;p:e.
There Re.oluo ions were 01 eers- much applauded•
and, when put to the rote, the allele Hull held up
01.4 hands for theft, except Mr. li, trade, Mr.
Dixon. and their ftieoadr, who aprelti.l to be about
a &era ou the Hu.tiugs, idwut Witt citizen in
the body of the IMU.

Mr. WAITHI4/14. amidst almoat universal plans
dint, they came fortrard.—lle s.id lie Itrd DOW that
honour tastedil 1..• to one of the anent n-strectableaseesal
Mg. he had ever witnessed in that I tali ; 44 event
which attest dratrov th.• angel:loos :Attempts that-hods
been mode to vilify their last mt,t-ting. *bit* hot.
t 1 nu>Vht wax just as man:enviably attended.. His
hoped due munition would he paid to all that of.
fared thriattevra to their notice—lie had istra64!ilv
wisiaeal it, and has anxiety to obtain a hearing fur *
gentlemau of contrary opinion, bad aalleeted him
to a charge of infianging upon the province of the
Lord Mayor, who then prcstdeal.--So usueb had
been acid—to Much had been written iu
two to uurictibted privilege tit any oae broach tit
tile legisNttire; that hr could no: be.expetctori tat '
soy any thistg m. 0., and would tint therefore details •
than on that p tint, Ile should direct his attention
to what they considered 4 visiatt:oU of their rigittes
which arose •out of the corruption of the *tests.
With respect t t *hotting the Gallery of the Histiso
of Commons, tf it wi re only to be ;oft open on cers
tale occasions. to gratify the vanity of certain gen•
ilea:ten. to have their specises recorded. and the •
public were /*eluded on great ift.estione„ how 'could • •
the public heuctit ? He thought it an attempt
to prevent the people from learning the psi. •
saints of their representatives; and if they 'had
succeeded ginetly iu puttiovs dimwit Gale Janet,
they would ever atter have adopted.. Opted the same plan.
(Load topplauAe.)—He then took a view M the pro-
ceedings of certain 'individuals. at cud after the
litatCoinutoti Hail, and was not tase;:risetl. that,
in great naeatimp, public feelings get the better of
judgment: however, if trait they were addressed as
thieves, pickpecketa, and desperadoes. he lamed
their patience would submit. Res,intactitr had
keen entered into, stigmatizing them, because they
woterl not bear oppoOte sentiments. Such resohns
Lions would lead to ke.lieve. that their accmept
*mild ant pursue a line of conduct they condemned t
it was a fact, however, that they did so. At theism'
Cimino HIV, having had • kttn to attend MAIM
I.ondouTaveruoi•id bring avnalliy friends AO he cou:.11,
he did nor lei I justoried its. staying away. Ise was not
in the hatiat of recording the raminous speeches of •
Gentlemensear ham (Mr. Donna), but he there
hoard him say. that they'w eve not theft Ito jliaanto-
bly *here only those could he hearti who %mild
find (*.mit wish His Majesty's Misaistem, and thea
Nucor,* tai readiug tine charging
theta with a.almare to spbvert tact t uatse of t.osuw,
moos. jAkv boWelebo. aV*1"1" •
tat.in firgWeo-111-similigise"aigainsf-thitivE.4e.ftie
itie, sorb as Nit.. inshington aud.Althrtatuata nor- .
croft. If the leaders of the adjaue lied meetiag eoulti
come face la. fuse, sod assign infamy to those sus
oetnlded—to the great holy of the reople-e-thity
ought not to he heard; but still he hoped they
would. At the ca/ia .meeting at the Lon4ou
Novena, their opponents bad opened upon. his
foetid, ,like a pack of hounds. they wanted
thsjr resolutiwaa carried . without putting.thrus to
the rote, and their Chair eventually refthieti 101314..
t!teon. Tbair mild behaviour wan at all tastes mina
eltictioui—a friend of his who opposed theta at
Merchant railors 1414_ oarrowly soaped with his
life ; and at Grocers' litre. witure they met in the
yard, au attempt was made to push ham (Mr. W.)
down the gel's. so that hip life• was endangered.
He felt warmly on this occasion. mud be should
cease to be an Englishman of he did not. The
counter-resolution., which intputi.d bail unwires to
. . . . .

them. Ilia het n Jtavon tai) the day 6-I.ve the
Column' H I W sivieteLird. The Retada,:ion F. Of

.the Common Hall were incoutrovertible facts. The
guilty knew they were so, and it was the guilty,
thee* they opposed, that viiiiittd to destroy, tbg
Constitatiou. Many worthy men, who had bred
ennecesaerily alarmed, be knew, had signed the
Couuter-resolutions. The city had been may:toted.
Their Chairinan canvassed churches, and some bad
been sufPred to sign by proxy. Whitt he twirl, he
could prove. but did lint suppose be should be
challenhetl to it—.a• ke formerly gave snore proofs
thee were agreeable. What oust they ileitis of
the purity of the Counter-liesolutionists, when
they !Ltd the man at the head of the Middlesex.
Meeting, with 6JOI. a-year, from Governmeut,
protecting the Constautino, who w i.brd its brut:dies
to be lopped off, lino, rallies to protect its branclies ?
When hr looked into these characters he always
discovered something at bottom to create distru.g.
The counter-resolutions were framed tied supported
by courmaraiou-re of taxes, tart-gatherers, notorious
piece-hunter-, contractors. and their depeudents.
Mr. Jacob, who had so violently attacked the Oa-
ra:ters of the Livery, was return.ll by nine
voters, and now bolds a place under Guveriantent.
He then teak a view of the re.gn of yurlits I.
to James IL and compared them with the pre.
sent times. He thence argued that thew were
the best friends to their country who by ninety
interfering 'meld prevent violent teleac:r.s. Ile
contended that corruption was lads ocemetry to
support good Goverutneet 'an.l that nmhhig could
justify the sale of seats In He was
borne out in his amorettoni by I .orsl Fe•Alue. who Lad
milliard private frielids;ap te Cie public welfore..nd
also by Sir Samuel Hotualy sod Mr. Whitbread.
All he had ever said inpue-t the 1108" "e°9"l".
fell abort of what hud been wail IN the
( :enamor., soul dtl ,14..ii,st public Liirstiox,lo4.,
trot amount to obit had beco said b) hir.=
id d:Llarsug to the Cuitiloori cue
tile of the Houser of Cuirinime waitagyee.
Ur. i.e..se of the people, stmt. " o hat could la
ntlj oha • ye riliniatent ?—thoue were supplied."
the arta weplil have tc provide Go
tterb rue grasped what they could get; be were