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London, England, 1826-03-07 00:00:00

THE BRITISH PRESS.

return with cheerfulne,s and pleasure to. iris salary of 4001. per
annum. It should also be remembered that the Governor had to
receive foreigners at the College frequently ; and detached as the
College was from large towns, the society end intercourse which
Was kept up was necessarily at the expense of the Governor. Indeed
so seriously hail he felt this, that after having held the office ten
years he should quit it as pone if not poorer than when he first ac-
ceptnt it. (Hear, hear, hear.) If the House reverted to the year
they would find that the expense of the College was 33.300/.
l'hecommission which was subsequently appointed hod so farresluced
it that site portion which the public were now called upon to advance '
was only 13.0001. At the former period the 'timber educated was
400 ; at present there an but 200. and he believed, when the nature
of the education given was taken into consideration. it would be
conceded that nothing could be more economical. idatbernatics,
the classics. the French and German languages, military fortifies-
done, drawing, &c. were all taught in the best manner, anti at a
much less pmportionate expense than at any of the public semi-
naries Besides there was a stimuhis for young mes eiluea.el
at
the College to acquire every description of information. If a
young man passed a public examination in the classics. in history,
geography, or any of the other branches of education, such an
examination stood for a third of his commission. In short they were
rendered fit for any situation in life, and he thought that 13,001)1.
was not too much to obtain such advantages. Ir. that 13.0001. it
should also be recollected war included the expense of educating
the staff officers of the army, no leis than eight of whom had been
sometimes qualified in one year, although they were not conaidered
qualified until they had made surveys of the country, nor until the
accuracy of those surveys had been ascertained. Many officers
who had eminently distinguished themselves in the late war lied
been educated at the College.
Col. WOOD said that he had been anticipated in that which
lie intended to have said, by his lionouroble Friend who hail just
resumed his teat; but he woold just remark that America felt so
far convinced of the benefits of a military college that one had
actually been established by the authority of Congress.
Colonel DAV I ES said that the whole expense of the American
arnty amounted only to 600,0001. whereas that of Great Britain
a nunted to seven or eight millions. They had also only 7.000
men to cover an immense extent of' territory. lie could not see
the policy of keeping bush an immense staff' upon so moll an
stablishment.
Sir A. HOPE explained.
Stir H. II A RUING l; said that within the last year 267 Cadets
had been received for education at West Point, and so convinced
were the Americans of the necessity of maintaining a military
college upon a large scale, that a rroposition was before Congress
for adding fifty horses to the establishment, an expense which the
Government of this country never ventured upon.
Colonel DAVIES said that there was not a tingle cavalry corps
in the American army. - •
hfr. HUME said that it was ur.doubtedly the duty of the Go.
"eminent to see that every person was qualified for the situation to
which he was to be appoioted, but that reason applied to every
publtc department, tied or military. The large sum of 300,9901.
was annually voted to pay Ambassadors, and yet so lamentable
have been the deficiencies upon some great occasions, that the pub-
lic have had more than once to regret that the,' were not better qua.
lified. Ile would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the auto
subscribed (14,000/.) was not sufficient for the maintenance of the
t'ollege, without calling upon the public for the sum of 13,000/.
additional. Ile had no objection whatever that gentlemen's sons
should receive their edocadon at the College, provided they paid for'
it. The sum required was enormous for the education of 216
boys. He observed that 4001. was allowed for officers' hnrses, and
he wished to know if that would teach French. (A laugh.) He
did not think it necessary to pay largely for a writing establish.
went. there being one attached to every regiment in the service.
At all events, in the present situation of the country, it could not
affOrd to pay a salary of 1,5001. to the Governor, and 1,1001. to the
Deputy Governor, and he should therefore move as an amendment
that the sum of 6.160/. for she pay of military officers should be
reduced to 3,16411. thereby reducing the whole vote for the support
of the college to 10.1601.
Sir H. VIVIAN thought that the arguments of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Aberdeen were strongly, in flivour of the maintenance of the
College, inasmuch as he had admitted that the education received
there was of the very best description. He wished to take that op-
portunity of saying a few words relative to the case of a soldier,
which bad been alluded to by an Hon. Bart. (Sir F. Burdett),
whom he regretted not seeing in his place. He said, at the time,
that the case had been much exaggerated, and that the punishment
wen inflicted for the purpose of avoiding a resort to corporal chas.l
tisement. He was of opinion that it Was not right to be bringing
questioos of military discipline before the House, particularly
when the character of the Royal personage at the head of the army
VMS taken into consideration. The fact was that the man behaved
very ill, and to save corporal punishment they bad resorted to that I
species of punishment He had however subsequently expressed
his contrition for his misconduct, and was pardoned • so that in
fact the officers were only to blame for not having tried him by
Court Martial, the consequence of which must bays been a severer
punishment He bad received a letter from the Mayor of Exeter,
to which he expressed Ile eadelsetion at the conduct of the regi-
. anent during their residanee is that city. lie should feel happy if
this statement should have the effect of removing any of the exist-
ing prejudices against the Tenth, for, notwithstanding the reports
which had been circulated to their disadvantage, there was not in
the service a regiment the of of which were more sedulous in
the discharge of their duty. It was with the greatest pleasure that
he took that opportunity of bearing testimony to the general good
conduit of the regiment.
Mr. AIONCK thought the Celhege establishment might be done
away with altogether. Hs saw no reason why persona ebould be
instructed in the military more than in any other profession at the
public expense, and quafifiod persona might be secured by appoint-
ing examinations for the caotlidates for commissions.
General GASCOYNE said that the lion. Member for Aber-
deen seemed to have no objection to educating at the public ex.
pense the sons of officers who had fallen in battle, or who might be
unable to afford the expense of such an education. if such was
the case, he thought he could base no well-founded objection to the
motion ; (or the fact was, that those persons who could pay did
pay, as was proved by the annual sum of 26,0001., which defrayed
two-thirds of the expenditure of the college. This, his own °Wee-
dos, was answered by himself.
Sir J. YORKE said that if the College were to be taken out of
the hands of Government, which it must be if entirely supported
by contributions from the parents of the pupils, it must become a
public seminary, and he never knew a public seminary at which
the pupils learned anything. (A laugh.) At least they learned
nothing but extravagance and swindling. (Laughter.)
Mr. 111111 E said that some of the pupils paid 201., others 531.,
and others 125/. per annum. Ile was sure that the Hon. and Gal.
lent Admiral would not object to pay the latter sum to ensure •
good education for his son, if the House were to refuse the grant,
rather than allow the establishment to be discontinued. The same
feeling must actuate all parents, and it was wily just that those
who received the benefits of a good education should pay for it, and
not the public. So large a sum as 6,0001. was tow much for niece
military superintendence.
Lord PALIIERSTON said that those persona who were in
such a situation of life as to enable them to pay liberally for their
children, did in fact pay more than their proportion of the expenses
of the establishment. There were many persons, however,
had not large fortunes, who bad distinguished themselves in the
army and nar7, and whose sons were anxious to emulate die
deeds of their fathers, and he thought in such cases it would be
bard to deny them the boon of the necessary education.
Any one who had any acquaintance with human nature would be
able to appreciate the efficacy of those institutions, in inspiring the
youth with an ardent spirit, and would know the necessity of rear.
mg a sufficient supply of young men for the service.
' Ill?. WILLI.% 51 SMITH said that the grounds on which the
Hon. Gentleman objected to this vote had been misunderstood by
the Noble Lord. The Ilan. Gentleman did not object to the insti-
tution, but only to its expense ; he did not deny its utility, but
affirmed that it cost too much. The Hon. Gentleman said that it
could be conducted for 3,0001. instead of 6.000!., and have, at the
same time, just as able superintendence.
Mr. 111'31E said that his objection was not to the establishment,
but it appeared to him that it cost more than was requisite. At
Woolwich it cost less to keep under order a greater number of
young men ; the cadets at Woolwich had beep at times upwards of
200, whitest Sandhurat the number was only 195, and yet at the
latter place there was a Governor with a salary of 1,0001. a year.
lie would reduce his objection to this. that he did not like to tree
the weavers of Aberdeen, Bolton, or other towns, paying fir the
education of gentlemen's eons. At present he would exert himself
to reduce those expenses as much In possible. kat next year lie
would object to them in tutu, as not merely inexpedient but objec-
tionable in yrinciple.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE observed that the Hon. Gentleman
was not aware of the difference that existed between Woolwich .nd
Sandhurst ; these colleges were not on the same footing ; at the
former there was a military establishment, including a conitustulant,
which superseded the necessity of keeping an old military officer to
superintend it, anti consequently lightened the expense.
The question was then put—
For die amendment Td I Against it . . 87
Majority for the original motion . . 65.
The totes of 691/. 121.6 d. for general contingencies of the Royal
Military College, and 156,0621. fur die pay of General Officers In
his Majesty's forces, not being Colonels in the army, were then
agreed to.
When the vote of 35,490/. 2s. 9d. for the charge of his Majesty's
garrisons at home and abroad. was moved,
M r. HUM E rose to object to the custom of maintaining no-
minal garrisons, and paying governors, while in truth no such
officer or staff' resided in those places. It was high time to retrench,
and every one of the garrisons lie looked upon as • mere sinecure. If
military officers deserved pensions, they ought to have then' directly,
but not in this circuitous way. In this manner the garrison of
Portsmouth fortification had dwindled to a sinecure, as the governor
never lived there. He begged to ask the Noble Lord why the
garrisons were still maintained at Fort Augustus and at Fort
r William, and whether they had not beam suspended foe some time
by the orders of the Duke of Wellington.
Lord PALSIERSTON said that theme establishtnekts afforded
the means of rewarding meritorious officers ; those garrison ap.
pointmenN were the rewards of service. With respect to the gar-
! risen* of Fort William and Fort Augustus, they were not abolished,
because the buildings could not be tutned to account otherwise
I than as barracks. When the total number of those appointments
• were compared with the number of officers in the army, be was sure
the House would not deem it expedient to diminish the means of
rewarding military service.
31r. HIJSIE doubted whetter those appointments were always
given to meritorious (news. lie would beg leave to ask who was
the governor of Hull; he hadinever hoard of such a person, and yet
be saw a sum of kill/. given to hint in the animates. He had no

objection to pay officers where any duty was to be performed. but
he did object, and the House ought to object, to this lavish dissi-
pation of the public money.
Sir A. 1101% said that those appointments were distributed in
such a manner as to be the reward of meritorious service. Ile had
taken the liberty of examining the state of the army some yearn
ago, and 1110 found that a considerable number had risen through
all the ranks to that of general officers, and to persons of this de-
scription no lest than 14i of these appointments had been given.
The Honourable Gentleman cook' not find, he believed, an officer
who could ace that he obtained any thing by farina. As to the
Governor of Hull, he believed the person who held that place was
Lord 11111,second In command to the Duke of Wellington. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that the ()corral Officers who had
distinguished themselves ought to be rewarded. They might, it
was true, receive pensions, but this mode of requiting their ser-
vices wax more liimoursble. Ile considered the general vote there-
'fore as perfectly justifiable, but he did not understand the Noble
lard's explanation with respect to the forts in Scotland the aboli.
tion of those forts had been recommended by a Select Committee,
who seemed to pique themselves particularly on this part of their
advice.

Sir H. HARDINGE said that with respect to these forts the
reduction of exneose affected by deserting them would he next to
nothing, nor wci they wholly useless; one. Fort William, was
situated at the entrance of the Caledonia) canal, and might serve as
a defence against privateers ; the other, Fort Augustus, was useful
as a barrack, and derived also some importance from its vicinity to
the same renal.

:Mr. HUME observed that those forts had been built since the
Act of Union ; it was not any scrupls, therefore. arising nut of the
provisions of that Act, which preventen • heir demolition ; on the
contrary that Art was violated every day. As a proof of the worth-
tentless of these fortifications. the Duke of Wellington. he under-
stood, had ordered them to ke dismantled. j,s to the ides of de-
fending the canals, that was new altogether. Ile differed from those
who thought it honourable for an officer to hold a ainecure; and
upon this principle also he would object to them. But he would
ask the Noble Lord why we should pay North America! Arty
should wemaintain the standing garrison of Quebec ? Why should
we pay for Barbedoes, Dominica_,_ and the others? For Oibtralrar
there was an estimate of 1,50.5/. He was informed that the Canadas
wee willing to pay their own espitnsee, if obey ware permitted,
and every shilling collected at Gitraltar might to go to defray the
expenses of its garrison instead of to the Crown. The expenses
of the Colonies would be very much lightened if the system of
governing them were altered ; if, instead of such persons as Lord
Charles Somerset. whom everybody detested. (Cries of order.)
Sir ALEXANDER HOPE deprecated any vague charges
raised in the absence of the Nell. indtvidual who was their victim.
Mr. HUME aaitl that if he was not permitted to bring thole
charges before that House, how was he to bring them ; and as to
his charging the Noble Earl in his absence. why was not the Noble
Lord there ? But it was evident that the Cape of Good Hope was
unproductive, because it had a bad Uovemer—one who did every
thing in his power to prevent the colony from calling out its re-
warms. lie protested, therefore, against the paying those gar-
rioting which. when most innocent. were sinecures.
. .

..... -...... _
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he
believed that the Honourable Gentleman (lid not nnderstand the
ground on which he had been called to order by the Gallant Ge-
neral. It was not his wish to prevent the honourable Gentleman
from bringing any charge, but he objected to the terms in which it
was expressed. The expressions of the lionourabte Member were
often so unguardsd as to hurt the feelings of others. In this in-
stance the expression made use of by the Honourable Gentleman
was—" Lord Charles Somerset, whom every body detests." This '
language was neither dignified nor to the purpose, for the salary of
the Governor of the Cape was paid out of the revenue of the co.
long, and did not enter into these estimates.
Mr. HUME said that the case was clear that the colony could
pay its own expenses if it were well governed.
Mr. IV. 11. •ItTON—The lion. Gentleman had stated that the
Colony at the Cape could pay its expenses, if Lord Charles Somer.
set were removed. The earliest means were taken to rem°ve Lord
Charles, who is now on bis way home ; but the language in which
he was mailed by the lion. Member was highly improper, and
such as should not have beets directed towards a public officer; if
that officer has misconducted himself. let the House do its duty in
examining the proof of his guilt. The lion. Gentleman said that
(he Canaries would be willing to pay their expenses if permitted.
but he (Mr. Horton) would venture to coy that the Canada' would
do no such thing. Considering the great extent of our Colonial
possessions, the House, he was cure, would not think them was
anything extravagant in the mode of conducting them. The Co-
lonial Department was throughout conducted in the most toonomi-
cal manner, and the expense incurred was no more than was requi-
site to retain the Colonies. 1
Colonel DA VIES said he would venture to call the Colonia
appointments the greatest system of jobbing in the world t all our
nionies paid their expenses under their former 017011". He did
not like to hear his lion. Friend run down in that manner
(laughter) while advocating the salutary principled public tea-
nooty.
Mr. S. RICE made some observation to the same effect. and
spoke In handsome terms of the Lieutenant-Governor lately unit
to the Cape.
Mr. HUME said that he was not aware of such an officer having
been sent out and he certainly (lid not mean to cast any imputations
on him. His Hon. Friend, therefore, might as well have been
eulogleing Sir PrregrinC Pickle (laughter) • but he did not think
the shifting of Governors could do much good ; the evil lay much
deeper, it law in.the Fonign Office. It was the duty of the lion.
Gentleman to see that the administration of the colonies was incor-
rupt. The Hon. Gent. wild, let us take the money now, and we
will argue the business afterwards; hut Ito (Mr. Hume) thought
that this was the time to come forward, and to save every shilling
that could be saved ; the Colonies were worth retaining, but they
ought to pay their own expenses, anti would pay them, if they were
not crippled bye bad system of government. Jamaica could pay for
garrisons, and raise taxes also; then why could not the other Coln.
Mies do the same ? Ile contended that the money collected at Gibral-
tar ought to be applied in discharge of its expenses, and therefore
moved, as an amendment, that the sum of 5.9001. should be deducted
from the estimate of :15.498/. for defraying the charges of garrisons.
Mr. W. HORTON begged to remind the lion. Gentleman,
that if the Colonies could not at present support their own ex-
pense'', his proposition amounted to no more than that the taxes
should be rsised in the colonies : all possible pains had been taken
In the Colonial Department to ameliorate in every possible way the
condition of the colonies • pains had been taken even to teach and
disseminate the English language as theliarbinger ofother improve-
ments.

Lord PALMERSTON' observes!, that on the came principles
the Hon. Members ought object to the military stations in the
colonies . - he could see no reason why the officers should be paid
by the coloni,:s, but not the soldiers.
Mr. lIUME said that it was the custom of the colonies to pay
the garrison, but rot the military. Until the House determined
on reduction, we should never see an end to these expenses.

Sir K. WILSON said that when st the Cspe of Good Hope he
was informed by the Dutch Governor that they had a military
chest containing a large treasure ; and this treasure he was assured
had been accumulated from the savings of the colonial revenue,
and that they never had to draw on the mother country. With
respect to Lord Charles Somerset he hoped that the (louse would
have the justice not to entertain any vague charges against him,
since he had made an appeal. (Hear.)
The question was then put,
For the amendment . 21 l Against it . 116
Majority fur the original motion . 95
The vote of 12:1,594i. for full pay to reduced, retired, and un-
attached officers was then agreed to, as was that of 46,4301.2 s 6.1.
for half-pay, and military allowances to reduced and retired officers.
On the motion that 107,2961. be granted for the payment of
foreign half-nay,
Mr. HUM F.: rose and begged to ask the Noble Lord (Lord Pal-
merston) whether any arrangement had been tnade by which the
officers on foreign half-pay were enabled to sell their half.pay, as
was the case with the British army.
. . .

Lord PALMERSTON said, rm arrangement to that effect had
been made, but that the proportion was not quite so large as that
allowed to English officers. Very few foreign officers had, how-
ever, availed themselves of the permission.
Mr. HUME said, that the vote in 1817 on the head of foreign
officers was 133,0001., and in 1826 it had only been reduced to
107,2961., 80d he must contend that the allowing of thoae officers
to sell their half-pity would havethe efiket of pearetstating the half.
pay list, anti he should be glad to know by what order that had
been done.

Lord PALMERSTON arid, the Mon. Gentleman (Mr. Mume)
was quite mistaken in the view he took of the subject, by sup-
posing that the half-pay would be perpetuated ; for certainly those
who purchased were not more immortal than those who sold. The
officer selling was under the necessity of proving that he was in an
onlinary good State of health, and upon which statement the value
of his annuity was calculated. The officers composing the foreign
half-pay list, were persona that could not he employed according to
the Act of Parliament regulating that subject, and by the measure
of allowing the sale of those commissions to British officers, their
services were rendered available, while those of the foreign officers
were not. The lion. Gentleman (Mr. flume) was quite in error
in supposing that young lives were made subservient to old ones
by Introducing the former on the retirement of the latter, for upon
a fair oalculauonit would appear that there was little or no difference
in point of age in the parties who sold and those who purchased.
The arrangement in question was a most desirable one, inasmuch
as it gave scope to promotion at a time when it was in r complete
state of stagmeion, and indeed when none could be obtained, and
the effect of the arrangement was to give a new epi•'t to the pro.
fession,

...—....,
Mr. HUME said, that In 1817 there were on half-pay 7392
Lieutenants, 3593 Captains, 996 Majors, 11101 Colonels, and 1:03
Generals and Field.Murshals ; so he KR% far from admitting that
any facilities were requisite for introducing more officers into the
army at so considerable an expense, which must be added to the
burthens of the people. The principle was a bad one; it was
giving to the Cmwn an illegal and unconstitutional power. He
would not oppose the vote. but. he could not but object to the
power given to foreign officers to sell, wbo had tcarcely served a
day, and put the money In their pocheto So long as the House
gave its sanction to such a state of things, so long world it do in.
jouice to those who contributed the means by trixlth they were
effected.
Lord PAL3IERSTON said that he was not aware of any
foreign officers who had been placed on half-pay who had not
served. It was true there were some officers Guested, but they
were not put on heif..pay because they were not considered entitled ;
and he must inform the lion. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) that no
foreign officer tinder the rook of captain wu permitted to sell his
tornmiulon.—The vote was then agreed to.
The next item put was that of 49,27 U. Is. 1 W. for the payment

of in-pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospital
whichs, /:
Mr. HUME rowe and said that he wished to submit the pro,
piety of dismantling Kilmainhem Hospital, which was kept up
a;
an expense entirely out of proportion with that of corre.pendine
establishments. He was anxious to submit the propriety
tthhee army
ye int'he furelidandwo appealwes tr;)ot thes nlritlaayirnee sit
or re-
moving the persons of Kilmainham to to paid at (etches. Ever
thing
o glise;ngriesinstd, iitagntdo
General (Sir Charles bong) whether they could not be paid at
Chelsea Illespital, certain as he (Mr. Hume) was that the lion.
Baronet could give an opinion at once whether it cuuld or coed
not be done.
Sir C. I.ONG said that as the lion. Member (Mr. Hume) she.
they the persons at present paid at Kilmainhem could not be peel
at Chelsea, there was no doubt it could be done, provided an in,
crease of the establishment took place. proportionate to the increment
duty imposed upon it. lie (Sir C. Long) was a little 'nmixed a;
the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman, (Mr. Hume) inasmuch as
on a former occesion he hod wished to do away with Chelsea Hon,
pital altogether. But would it he contended that such establish. '
ments were to be done away, which afforded protectior, artd comfort
in old age to those who had fought and bled in defence of their
country. (Hear, bear.) There could be no doubt of the recent,
hility of the pmposiuon of the Honourable Gemlemane (His
Hume), but at the same time he must be permitted to dispute its
propriety.
Mr. HUME said that there was no doubt brit the uffices of the
establishment of Kilmainham would be glad to resign under
proper condition; ; at the same time he must contend that the corn.
forts of individhah wcte not to be pet in competition with the pub.
lic good.
Sir G. MURRAY rose to enter his protest against doing awey
with that establishment to which Irish soldiers had looked as the
one to which they could have resorted in their own onutury. (Hut.)
Mr. H I E said a few words in explanation, and the vote wee
then agreed to.
It was then moved that the sum of 1.285.5661. ee. 4d. be rented
for the payment of out-peneionert of Chelsea llospitai; upon
whith
Mr. HUME said that there was no man who would not allow
a proper reward or allowance as pension ; but when he had oht.
jetted to the vote In 1821 on the same head, he was told by the
Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) there wonld not he an imam
The fact, however, had been, that a gradual increase had taken
place ever since the Finance Committee bad made their Report.
In 182'2 the amount wa544611.0001.; in 1823. 1.1e24,0011l.; in 1824,
1.219.0001.; in 11123, 1,249.0001. ; and in 1826 it had retched the
amount of 1,288,0001. lie should be glad to know upon what
principle, having brought the army down to 88.000 men, that the
increase arose? As fie expected that the amount would shortly
reach two million., he wished to know titan the Noble Lord how the
increase was to be accounted for ?
Lord PALM ERSTON said that he could only ohlerve that
soldiers having been enlisted for a certain period were entitled to •
certain pensions. It did not come within the competency of 'he
persons who had to decide upon their claims to say how many wem
to be &emitted ; it was their duty alone to award those pensions tee
which the individuate were entitled. It was a matter of greet,
regret to see the large number of men who hid been disabled, bat
how so great an increase of pensioners generally hadeaken place be
(Lord Palmerston) could not explain. At the same time he wee
certain the House would not deny to those men the bounty Mild%
the Government had afforded them.
Mr. HUME said that in 1810 the amount for pensioners en
800,0001. and he then said that the increase which had then taken plaes
was occasioned by men who had saved abroad, and that a reduction
might from that time be expected. But the fact was they had ice.
creased one half more in time of peace, and therefore it was that ne
considered there was something wrong--something which ought to
be revised. the (Mr. Hume) had been infamied that these were-
some officers who would have none but handsome men in their re.
giments, and several soldiers had applied to him (Mr. Hume),
stating that they did not wish to leave the army, but that they
were obliged to do so by their commanding officers. In certain corps
he was told that ouch was the ease If they had not a particular sort
of whisker, and black mustachios. 'lf they did not fortunately pos.
seas these requisites, he understood the men were obliged to retteee
and from what had come to his knowledge he femed thee were a
great many in that situation. The great increase in the expense •
proved there was something wrong. The half-pay also had gone
on gradually ineressing up to the rem 1022, although the Cotta
niittee of Finance of 1817 had said it would decrease front a rat
mud at which it was supposed it dad reached its highest 'mourn
That increase could Inn hare taken place unless individuals h.kr
got into the army who had no business there. If every office
in the service in the year 1816 had been put on half.psy the amount
would not have arrived at a larger sum than was new the case, are
that after a period of ten years peace. If additions awe to let
made in the way they had been it would be impossible to go on,
the country would be eaten up by the half pay. He could rot rte
fuse the vote, but he wished the Right Honourable Gentleman, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, to consider whether he would he
enabled to meet the sums they were nightly voting away tinder the
alarming defalcation in the revenue during the last two months.
Sir CHARLES LONG said he must offer a few words. It
must be in the recollection of the flotiourable Gentientaa
(Mr. Hume) that in 1022 the Kilmainham outepeueiouen were
transferred to Chelsea. There were teasons to account for the tee
crease in the pension list, to a eettain extent, by the increased
service occasioned by the formation of the veteran battalion, es •
well as the return of several regiments from India ; butt he men
allow those circumstances did not explain the large increase which
appeared to have taken place. He (-ir C. Long) thought there
MU something wrong in the system, and directed an inquiry. The
person appointed for that purpose carried his investigation at
through England, and perfectly satisfied him (Sir C. Long) that
no fraud existed ; the same Inquiry was hieing pursued in Ireland,
but he was not quite satisfied fraud did not exist there. At the
same time it could not be said but that the service pensions had
been carried to a too great extent, though that observation would
not apple to the pensions for wotinda. If the House had bete
aware of the amount to which the service pensions would have
arrived it would never have consented to the measure, but it was
impossible to break faith with the soldier, though the evil had
been remedied for the future, inasmuch as the service pension sat
not to commencemittil the soldier had completed a period of tweeter
years' solitude. That arrangement took place in 1822. The in.
creased expense did not at all rest with his Majesty's Government,
and he hoped that the acme of expense on that head lied heel
arrived at, at the same time the Government had nothing to do
but to act on the law as it existed.
Sir A. HOPE said that the lion. Gent. (Mr. Hume) had stated
that the maximum of expense should be taken as that of leek hut
he would find that at that timeonly a partial reduction te.d taken
place. In 1010 there were 1,000 officers reduced to half-pay ;to
11119, 380 ; in 1821, 1,000 ; and it was by the reduction or the
army, all after 1016 that the half-pay was increased up to 18:?1.
alr, 111:31E said that admitting such to be case the reduction
since hid only been from 1100,000!. to 770,0001 and therefore he
felt bound to press upon his Majesty's Government the meowy
of eduction.
Lori PALM ERSTON said that the amount in 18'21 was
Bente4lol.; and in 18-'2, in consequence of the reductions, it ass
870,000 e and therefore between that period and the present year
the reduction was 100,00t1/. that diminution could not hare taken
place but for the excellent regulation adopted by the Commander-
in-Chief at tine last augmentation. At that period none but the
senior first and second lieutenants were promoted, all being of 17
years' standing. Twenty-two Captains were preecoted to the rant
of Majors, each Captain having served 26 years. Seventeemalepts
were made Lieutenant-Colonels, having been 11 years regimental
Majors ; and no officer was promoted without purchase over the
head of another. It was therefore impossible to say that anything
unfair existed. No officer could be put nn half-pay but from the-
don or reduction ; it was therefore an unavoidable expense arising
out of reduction,
Sit E. EN AT CIIBULLwee fora time inaudible In the gallem,
he was understood to say the Inc should not refuse the vote, hut et
thought the House had a right to expect some amelioretion o: that
law which pressed so heavily on the resources of the country.
Sir C. IA)N( wished to explain to his Hon. Friend (ait 1..
Knatchbulll, that under Mr. Wyntlitsnee Act in 18110. soldiers ine.
enlisted for limited service, and according so the regulation+ of that
Act, the soldier demanded a pension after fourteen years' service,
while in the East and. West Indies two years service went ter three:
in other places. His Majesty's regulation did not act rettesere-
lively, but feem 1812 a soldier mom entre teemoryipare beers he
was so eutitled.
General GASCOYNE said there had been ten new togirreele
raised, five of which had since been reduced and five kept ; thorn
fore that would account that in 1833, as those officers were taken
from half-pay, that there should be a reduction on that head. et
knew how many soldier. were Invalided from the East and Wen
Indies, particularly as regarded the former, having had the cote'
command of a regiment atatienned there. The number of -nen m-
validel home from that regiment amounted to one-half, and that
was done at a large expense ; but lie believed the East India (em-
ptily bore some proportion of it.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next item was that of 23,5161. 18*. 91.. to &Rey the Cl'
perms of the Royal Military Asylum; which', after a tew etnei
troni Mr. H r, was agreed to.
The next item promoted was the sum of 142,0301. for the re!'
metal of the Widows of Officem on halt and full pay.
After some words between Mr. HUME and Lord PALIIEOSTON
the vote was agreed tn.
The sum of 190,7911!. 13s. cm. was then moved for the patine"
of the Compassionate Lists, Bounty It'arrants, and Penitere fie
Wounds, •
Mr. HUME remarked that there had been an increase hi
department since the year 1816, which did not appear to him to
warranted while the country conthmod during the period in a eee'
of peace.
o+o
old
Lord PALMERSTON regretted that cireumetancee
have oceuered to require the additions of which the llonourebie
..
Gentleman complained. Bat, while he entertained that feelieg
regret for their melancholy occurrence, he could not see why the
meritorious objects of such casualties should not be considered 'n'
titled to the provision which others had experienced in similar lint
ations. That was a consequence in which he did not concur. au;h
retrenchment was founded on an Unbend system towards those on,
cent whose wounds in the service of their country deserved tone-.
recompense for the disadvantages which they had thereby inmate:.
at'ith the juidice of this feeling to their merit lee was sure I"
House would coincide.
The vote was then agreed to. for
The sum of 48,2361. 10e. W., of which 6,10111. lace dd. w'es .1.
Ireland, was then passed under the' head of Superannuation•e
lowances.
The sum of 33,000/. tot deleylni the charge Of Eicheeutt red
was then vetted.