The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1825-03-04 00:00:00

LONDON, FRIIj.

;alluded to by his Majesty in
throne, and which was called
appeared to him to be the
Ad pledged themselves, and
somewhat hastily, on the first
thought he might 1114111110 it to
covradiction. If, thee, it were the
'-meted by the King's Speech, how
Association stand personally
extraordinary charge, was put
those Associations which were
Is Majesty calls the attest-
Association'', which he
proceedings irreconcilable with
"- would ask, was not that
to impeach certain lath-
itself ? Was it not the has..
'a could complain, that the
. with so heavy a charge
only one ? No ; heavy se
‘avy. It was charged agatnat
calculated, by exciting ammo,
t endanger the peace of society.
nal improvement." They were
animosities, with increasing the
and, instead of healing the
'o irritate them. If ever
any body of men. it was
even lig his Majesa
oad • }6llson ,
W 10016
they went ale iod willing
If they were untrue, the
of all men the most ca.
opinion on that point, at least
formation on the subject that he
it of not paying any &teen-
accounts in the public pa.
iouse was in any way inter.
it was always the practice
}pointed to inquire into all
for the purpose of form-
than those given them by
case, however, no such de-
had been told on the other
m of a secret nature, but
I then, was the argument,
so well already ? But he
fluted sources from which
was inanueted to say that
be heard at the bar of the

purpose -_ .aying e_ e their Lordships all docu-
ments and papers connected with the Association as would sans-
factotily assure their Lordships that there was nothing in any of
their proceedings that could in the slightest degree create alarm.
He could not tell on what ground the Noble Earl could expect that
their Lordships would be inclined to refute the prayer of the peti-
tion. Their Lordships would not agree to pass a Bill to exclude a
peek front a common, until they heard evidence and Counsel at
the bar, to ascertain whether they could or could not justly do 130;
fet this Bill went to injure and attack so large a portion of our
ellow-countrymen ; and could their Lordships for a moment con-
sent to hear lair and fitting arguments against it? The only evi-
dence referred to by those who bring forward the Bill and press it
upon the !louse, is nothing more than notoriety. But he would
ask the Noble Earl (Liverpool), would this Bill have been ever in-
troduced into the House but for the Catholic Association? He
(Lord Carnarvon) was convinced that the House would never have
heard of the Bill, were not the direct object of it to put down the
Catholic Association. The Noble Eat' admitted as much at the
commencement of the present Session of Parliament; and the fact
that it was so is notorieas. In the Speech of his Majesty, he ex-
presses a hope, " that the House will adopt some speedy measures
to remedy the evil." Was he (Lord Carnarvon) then authorised,
or was he not authorised, in saying, that the measure now before
the House was the measure recommended by the King, and
adopted b his Ministers as a remedy for the evil ? He entreated
their Lordship(, therefore, to consider in what state the petitioners
stood with respect to this Bill. Had they no interests at stake?
The usual argument with respect to petitions was, that the House
should hear those whose individual interests were at stake, but not
those who suffered generally. But he would ask, was not such the
case with the petitioners? Were they not charged personally with
baying endeavoured to promote discord, and increase national hos-
tility ? Were they not charged with crimes, which were of all
crimes the most heinous ? °odd it not be justice. then, to in.
quire into the facts? Why should the House be called upon to
legislate so much to the darl. ? Why should their Lordships add
another to those many penal laws which already disgraced the
Statute Busk ? Why. after a !epee of so many centuries of dis-
core should they reek to tranquillise. or rather to preserve the
tranquddies .el • esanquitfire was admitted on at
sides, and even by his Majesty, to exist—by the en
of such a limners as the OM proposed) Could they
-atee alt ttl esserchm menl.l grow a pe-manent tranquillity ?
It was asserted, and deni.il by no party, that with this Aeeoeia.
tier a remarkable tranquillity existed—ahetLer it was the result
of the Association or not ha would not take It on himself to
say ; but he would iutreat their Lordships to consider how, if such
were the rue, this Association stood. Thou: restrictions on the
legal rights of the subject were proposed to be carried to a part of
the country, with the local situation of which very few of their
Lordships were accurately acquainted. The Irish were a people
whose character, whose habits, and whore interests differed mate-
rially from the habits, this character, and the interests of this
ceuntry. It could not be contended that the measure involved
only a question so remote as is be inconsiderable. If Ireland were
disaffected—if the Roman Catholics were conceived to be dan-
gerous, for they were the great body represented by the Catholic
Association—that Association which counted
were led on and guarded by as able advocates as any at the
liar of this land—which were supported by the greater and
far the greater part of the ministers of their religion—he
need not say, for the Noble Earl himself had said, that they
possessed the confidence of the Catholic population of Ireland;
then, in such a case, the House was still more bound to inert-
tigateibe conduct of the Association; for it became doubly impor-
tant that their Lordship. should be well acquainted with the Mat-
ter, sons to enact such legislative measures as might meet theneces-
sity of the case. But it would be first nceseary to know, did those
evils or did they not exist ? If they did not exist,. then it would
be wring to legislate, because excessive legislation was always an
evil. He wished, for the interest of their lordships, and for the
interesta of England as well as Ireland, that they would hear the
Counsel of the petitioners: and if' they did, what would be the
consequence, if the result of their investigation was not that the
Catholic Association was fraught with the dangers it had been
represented by the Speech of his Majesty to be. and if it appeared
that the dengers imputed to them were imputable only to the mea-
sure the House was called upon to adopt ? Would not the House
then " return the poisoned chalice to their own lips ?" Their
Lordships would be satisfied on all points if they would agree to
allow those members of the Association to be heard by their Coun-
sel at the Bar of the House, that they might at Imst be able to
plead their cause before their Judges. If Ireland continued in her
present state of tranquillity. England and Ireland united would be
the admiration of the world, and the protectors of the nations
around us. Namee had formed the two islands to be associated
they were naturally integral parts of one great whole. Their Lord-
ships could not think they would be late; able to trample upon Ire.
land, for Ireland was a part of ourselves, and incorporated with ua
It was riot necessary for him to calculate the population of that
country, no matter whether it were five millions or six
millions, or seven millions. They formal a mighty part of
the nation.. If one limb were paralysed, the vigour of life would be
nearly gone. He hoped their Loorrdships would pause before they
did an act of injustice—an act which might again call into action
all the bid and discontented feelings of that country. Let their
first act be an act of grace, and let them not refuse to hear at the
bar of their House those who appealed to their justice to be heard
there. We had a direction from his Majesty's Speech to take into
consideration the peoccedings of this Association, for the purpose
of providing a remedy fur the evil. Let then the !louse go into an
inquiry, ar.d be convinced as to the existence or the non-existence
of this evil. He doubted whether, after strict investigation, the
House would not find that they ought to substitute for the Royal
word, that tine Association " was calculated by exasperating ani.
'limiting to endanger society, and to retard the course of national
improvement," to substitute, be would say, for this his 3lsjesty's
declaration—that Ireland was fast increasing in population—that
capital was fast epreadiag like blessed streams over the surface and
in the depths of her land—surd that her permanent prosperity was
every day becoming more sure. He hoped their Lordship' would
not &stern that repose which now existed in Ireland. She was
peculiarly calculated by her rivers, her harbours, and her other
advanuigse, to give promise that in a few years she would bear
compar.sosi with Eoglaud. He trusted that such steps would be
adop.ed by that !louse es would tend to unite in one common feel-
ing the whole population of Ireland. Their Lordships might rely
that no country would rise more rapidly to the height of prosperity
than Ireland. it they would put an end to that system which so
completely divided her people. He hoped then that their Lord-
ships would hot pass such a ruinous measure as that contained in
the foolish Bill now before them. The Noble Lord concluded by
moving, that tin it Lordships agree is the prayer of the petition,
That Counsel ehould be heard at the bar of the flouts against
the Bill

Tim Earl o, LIVERPOOL said, that in rising to reply to the
obterratioait cf the Noble Lattl opposite, he would not allow him-
eel( to enter into the general question respecting the Catholic Asso-
ciation, but niercly confine himself to the statements of the Noble
Lord, as no doubt sufficient opportunity would be aflonled of dis-
cussing all mAt•ers connected with it. He (Lord Liverpool) con-
ceived that the House would be giving up all its general rules of
proceedings, and be establishing a precedent, not only inconvenient,
but dangerous, in acceding to the motion of the Noble Lord. He
would ask their Lordships, what was the nature of the Bill they
had that day met to consider ? Was it not a general Bill for put-
ting down all associations uf an unconstitutional nature In Ire Land ?
The Hill did not even name, he would not say it bad not for its
obtjert, but it did not even name the Catholic Association: at ap-
plied to all Associations in the same country. It was founded, as
yr., stated in in pren.nblc, or. what he would call the evasion of a

tamer Act, and was intended sob aweretet those evasions by aew
enactments, such as might meet win, end conquer evils with which
they had to contend. But if general subiecta, individuate or
bodies were allowed to petition w be beard by Coasted at the bar of,
the House, and had their prayer 'rental, there woollfhe no knowing
how to legiaLte, and in times of fintlty or deeper duettists would
be suffered before their Lordships Enid provide a sernedf for the
aril. When iadividuals who wen Ineensted in any Ineasure of any
description whatsoever, applied to their lonlehips to be heard at
their bar, it was a general ride -with their lordships that they
should not be heard at the second znallng of a Bill, but only when
the Bill was in Committee, and'Ot on general but on path
ruler and individual complaints. did their Lordships con-
ceive of the Bill now before the Hatiee? Did they not know that
it was not to affect any one verticals/ body, bet all who came under
the description of Illegal Associatieets ? Would they cot then, b
listening to the prayer of this pedant, tie up their hands on all
important occasions, and iffecuallyyrevent themselves from legis.
lating ? lie would sty, that if their Lordships heard these yeti.
boners, they would be *weed to hue forty others, and that they
would not do justice if die, did an hear all. If the' Bill now be.
fore the House were delayed until they bad heard Counsel and evi-
derce against it, would not their Lordship lose at least six months
before they could bring it into at / He had said that the Bill
was general, that it operated ageism all Associations; but be would
not by this be understood to sey....Jse weald not be so uncendid or
so unfair as to deny, that th.Gstbolic Atenciatioo amedtatedthe
origin of the Bill—he world net denp.this, but be would n that 0
the principles on which thitiompadeettilhvg.
_obileattrat
was that low cutter at deureseut inni2WWW•her ftwes rigid 1*
*Mg) of general notoriety. In staitneiltati their Lon:Whips that this
was the ground of the measure, and t t It was against all -Asso-
ciations, no matter under what denominations they were ceased—
he would not deny that the measure was directly levelled against
the Catholic Association, because it was calculated to lead to other
Associations equally opposed to the tranquillity of the country.
Their Loniships were aware that there was now sitting a General
Committee of Inquiry into the state of Ireland. No person who
was a Measlier of that Committee could say that they were not pro-
eeeding in a most full inquiry. Any persons that had injuries to
complain of could go to that Committee and state them, where they
would be beard with attention. A Noble Friend of his (Lord
Kenyon) had that evening presented a petition from a class of per-
sons who styled themselves Orangemen, who had prayed to be
heard before the Committee, and they were certainly entitled so to
he heard. He believed it to be a matter of notoriety that a Learned
Member of the Association had been examined before the Com-
mittee of the House of Commons, and he might, if he required, be
heard before the Committee of the House of Lords, as, Indeed, any
other might be. Another circumstance he might mention on this
subject was, that he was sure that Committee wished extremely to
hear those who could give them information on the subject before
them. They were not desirous that any circumstance should be
concealed He knew it might be said that it was hearing them at
the same time that they were passing a Pill against them, instead
of hearing them before it. He admitted that to pass a general Bill
under such circumstances would be unfair ; but he would ask
whether every body would not ov n that this was a particular case?
This measure :s different from others; it rested upon its own merits,
and upon general grounds, and ought therefore to be passed. lie
did not see why they should make this a prc:edent, which would
hamper them very inconveniently in other cues if they did it in
this of the Catholic Association. If they heard the Catholic Asso-
ciation at the bar they would be obliged to hear the Orange or any
other Association. He felt it to be his duty to give his vote against
their being heard.
Earl GREY—He certainly thought that there never teas a greater
call upon the justice of the House than at present. He thought
that that maxim of the English law, that no man should be
punished before his being tried, should not be departed
from. He begged to give his cordial support upon that prin•
ciple alone to the motion of his Honourable Friend. Before
he remarked upon the speech of the Noble Lord (Liverpool),
he must beg to express his surprise at the unmanly grounds on
which he had rested his argument. He would now notice the ac-
cusations which had been brought against the Association. It
would have been more creditable to his Majesty's Government if
the name of the Association intended to have been suppressed
had been mentioned in the Bill. For it could not be denied that
they were about to legislate directly, if not exclusively, against the
Catholic Association. Now, if the Association had been named,
they would have been heard at the Bar, as their particular interest
was at stake it was equally at stake now, although they were
not earned. He was told that they would not have been ; but
it would be easy to prove that they were entitled to it. The Noble
Earl had said that the Association was not named ; but would
any Noble Lord present lay his hand on his heart and say. that he
on his conscience believed that it wax not directed against the Cs.
tholic Association? (Hear, hear.) Recourse had been had to
proof in the course of the evening; for his Noble Friend (Lewd
Carnarvos) bed read that portion of the afing's Speech which
related to Ireland. Since that had been delivered, they it d
'here
but of the dupe tes tom tit! .f
Cad been was Presented tilts lit, preying that the
Bill before the House be passed Sato a ; this among °flirr
circumstances was a proof of the general opinion entertained by
the panics against whom it was directed. Now, this completely
did away with all the declamation of the Noble Lard (Liverpool)
concerning the Association not being named. It was the Assoc'.
ation, and that only, that was the object of the Bill. We bad
heard to-night of the petition delivered in the name of the Orange
Societies; but that Bill in all their petitis was not at all men-
tioned as being obnoxious to them; and thins merely prayed to be
heard before the Committee, to rebut certain:calumnious assertions
that had been made respecting them. There were persons in
Ireland who felt that they were not met with that support which
they had generally received. From this it might be inferred,
that the Association was understood to be the object of this
measure. He would now look to the character of the measure.
The Noble Lord had not denial that it was • new and severe re-
striction upon the popular right cf the subject. It was said that it
would affect the whole of the people of Ireland, and yet it was
admitted to be produced by the conduct of the Catholic Associa-
tion alone. There were various charges brought against the As-
sociation ; that it usurped the character of a Parliament—that
it levied money ; upon these vague assertions they were called to
pass this law. Ile was not now prepared to argue upon precedent,
but the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Liverpool) would certainly
have produced them if there had been any
.against them. There
could not possibly be a stronger claim of justice than the appeal
now before the }louse. The whole body of the people were sheeted
in consequence of the delinauency of one particular Society. The
Noble Lord bad said, that it he asserted a fact which the Associa-
tion could deny, he would give up the cause, or at least that par-
ticular fact. Here the petitioners came forward and said that they
were prepared to deny, and establish their denial by proof, that all
the facts stated by the Noble lord arc not true. Was it justice
to deny hearing them ? Not the most common culprit would be
condemned without being heard, and now they were about to turn
a whole nation front their bar. They were about to mulct the peo-
ple of Ireland of privileges dear to all free men, on ac-
count of the proceedings of a small body. He would now examine
into some particular and direct charges. It had been stated in the
King's Speech that this Associaticn " had adopted proceedings irre-
concilable with the spirit of the Constitution, and calculated, by
exciting alarm, and by exasperating animosities, to endanger the
peen of society, and to retard the course of nationel improvement."
Now, this was an exceedingly grave charge, and in which they ought
not to proceed without having a proper opportunity of judging of
their truth by hearing Counsel and witnesses at the bat of that
House. The answer to the first part of the charge was obvious, for
it was acknowledged Ireland never was is a more tranquil state ;
the answer to the charge of retarding rational improvements was,
that:the country was improving every where, commerce and menu.
factures were flourishing, and the spirit of enterprise was spreading
in all directions. Another charge was, that they levied taxes. Now,
it was nut a tax • it was a voluntary contribution, collected to for.
ward objects which the greatest enemy of public liberty had never
yet attempted to abridge. (Hear.) The Noble Lord then said
that " it is nominally voluntary, but we know it is not ; we know
there is a black and a red book, and those who do not contribute
are marked down." The Catholics deny this, and are ready to
prove it. The Noble Lord referred them to the Committee of In-
quiry that was sitting, and which was ready to hear any complaiets
made to it. Mr. O'Connell might, if he chose, go there and state
his claims ; but in the meantime the Bill was passed. (Hear,
hear, hear.) This he certainly thought an extraordinary mode
of proceeding. Upon other occasions the Noble Lord had called for
a general inquiry into the country where such disturbances were
alleged to have taken place. When this Committee was called for
it was not at all intended to pass the Bill if it was granted ; that
was not the object. The inquiry, when it was called for, ought to
have been instituted before the law was passed. This Committee
was now sitting. If the Noble Lord would suspend the Bill till the
Report of that Committee was brought up—if the Noble Lord did so,
his argument would be complete. It was ridiculous to punish first,
and afterwards inquire whether the punishment was just or not.
Suppose it should be proved before the Committee that these ge-
neral charges are false, and the particular facts calumnious, what
would then be the character of the House, if, in the mean time, a
law should have been pawed against them, assuming the truth of
these charges ? Now be had no doubt that they would be proved to
be talse, and then where would be the foundation of this law ? It
had been said by a Noble Lord opposite (Liverpool), that granting
the prayer of this petition would open a door to an inconvenient
precedent. Now this be must beg to deny. No great inconveni-
ence could be proved to arise from hearing the petitioners. No
man, from the Revolution downwards, had ever attempted to frame
a Bill so evidently depriving the subject of one of their dearest
rights? The Noble Lord concluded by expressing his internal
conviction that a stronger claim never came before that House, and
that he, in his conscience, thought the petitioners entitled to be
heard.

The LORD CHANCELLOR commenced his address in so
low a tone as to be inaudible below Me Wis. We understood his
Lordship to speak of the Convention Act, and to my, that its being
still in force, and yet inadequate to prevent the existence of such a
body as the Catholic Association, was sufficient to show the necessity
of legislative interference. What the law ought to be in Ireland he did
not presume to know ; he would trot presume to say whether the pro-
tzeduigs of such a Convention or Asisolistion, or by whatever name
called, were in Ireland legal or not. But he desired it to be clearly
understood, that he wits not among those who considered such pro•