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London, England, 1825-02-11 00:00:00

'or as much as he (Mr. Abereromby) abominated the conduct of •
Protestant Bishop embodying in his discourse political doctrines-
. It was nothing to him that the one lived in • palace, while tho
other was an inmate of a hovel. If it was wrong for • Catholic
priest to speak from the pulpit or at the confessional, of the hard-
ships they were enduring, and the political privations they. were
suffering, he (Mr. Abercromby) wished to know whether at wait
not equal y wrong for the Protestant clergyman? (Hear, hear.)
Ile wished to know why we were nut equally to condemn the Pro-
testant who mixed up with his doctrines the political science of
elections? It was not because the one was a Catholic, and the
other a Protestant, that we were to regard that wrong in the one
which was right and proper in the other. Another topic alluded to
by the Right lion. Gentleman, and considerably complained of by
him, was that of the Catholic Association interfering with the ad-
ministration of justice in the country. Upon this subject every
gentleman was to form his own opinion ; but he (Mr. Abercramby)
thought that he knew of some instance where the Catholic A sscci-
'Lion hal done much good in this way in Ireland. And this good
had been effected by the Association having t .ught the rich that
the poor were entitled to, and could procure justice as well as
themselves; this feeling had done much good to the lower class of
Irish, and had produced a consideration towards them on the part
ol some of the hieher classes that was not previously entertained by
them. Ile bad no wish to mention particular instances, but he
did say that he had known several cases, where the influence or in..
terferenee of the Catholic Association had accomplished much
good. But he was a little alarmed at the cases which the Right
lion. Gentleman had brought forward, in which this interference
was represanted to be exerted to the purposes of faction, and to the
subveraion of justice. Out he (Mr. Abercromby) conceived that
the first of these cases was made up with all the malignancy and
hatred which some persona were known to entertain towards the
Ca:holies. It seemed to be the opinion of the Right lion. tient. that
although the Crown was not engaged in the prosecution, yet it was
persevered in by the Catholic Association with the greatest eagerness.
But that was nut an important part of the case. The circumstance
to which he (Mr. Ahercromby) would particularly allude, was one
that characterised this complaint against the Association as most
ungrounded and frivolous, namely, that the Jury who acquitted
the prisoner w re themselves contributors to the Catholic Bent.
(Hear, hear.) How perfectly impotent, then, must have been Jr.
attempt' of the Association, when such a Jury acquitted the pri-
soner. Well, That was the other case? Why, it was one which
did not touch the Catholic Association at all; but it did seem to
affect the Catholic priest, of whom he (Mr. Abercromby) knew
nothing more than what the Right Honourable Gentleman had
mated, nor of whom did he meal to say anything but under the
impression of that ststenient. Assuming, then, that the Right
Honourable Gentleman was right, lie (Mr. Aberetomby) did not
hesitate to say that he condemned the conduct of that individual
as much as the Right Honourable Gentleman himself. But
what had all this to do with the Catholic Association ?
This individual had an impartial jury, and had an honourable at.
quittal ; how, then, was the Catholic Association blameable?
fiut what did all dime facts go to show ? He confested it appeared
to speak more in favour of the Association than against tlt:m.
These were not the consequences of 'the Association, but they re-
sulted from that abominable, detestable, and accursed policy, which
we observed towards Ireland. (Hear, hear.) It was the conse-
quence of the unjust and wicked policy a Wall we usel against the
Catholics; they were the effects rod rot the cause of the Associa-
tion, and of all those mischiefs which that Association sought to
cure. But the cases which had been mentioned by the Right Hon.
Gentleman were cases not in which verdicts of guilty but of ac-
quittal were recorded. Now the persons on these juries were three
who contributed to the Catholic Rent. (" No, No," from several
Members.)

The SPEAKER (u we understood) said that that was not the
ease.

Mr. ABERCROMBY said, that if what he had stated was not
correct,it way an error into which several Gentlemen around him had.
equally fallen. He begged to assure the House. that he had no
wish to misstate the facts , but if he had been disposed to mine.
present, this would be one of the last cases which he should have
chosen. But why. select these cases to legislate upon ? Suppose
the Catholic Association had interfered, yet what was the result ?
the innocent triumphed, the prisoner was acquitted, and the Ca-
tholic Association went away, ridiculous and defeated ; and, them-
fore, a Catholic Association thus conducted, must necessari)y fall
of itself, and required, not a legislative e:tactment to put down.
Then the Bight Hon. Gentleman, and two other flcusoureble
'Members had expressed their very strong disapprobation of
a document that had appeared in the newspapers; and he
(Mr. Abercromby) was ready to say, that, allowing for the
scope which the fervour and animation an Irish composition
required, he did not conceive that the publication had any per.
vicious tendency. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman
then commented on the Address published by the Assooiatton in
December lest, and expressed his most decided concurrence in
moat of the seetiments expressed in it. He contended, that it did
not exhort mean, but to peace. If they were to take the language
in its most exageeerated sense, even then the most offensive passage
of the document' where it exhorted the Catholics, by the hatred
they bore to thethangemen., to abstain from all violence, that even
that could not be cot *trued to an exhortation to war. But, good
God ! was this Parliament really come to this condition, that while
they had before their eyes the whole causes that led to these yell.
gious dissensions and persaeal animosities, that they were to pro..
teed in legislating, in oppoe.hion to every wise and prudent mea-
sure that would correct and do away with these causes Were
they still to proceed in enactments that would only aggravate these
dissensions ? If the Catholic As'ociation had not a good ground
of complaint, it could not have existed. Tile only proper course
was to emancipate them ; but if the Dfinimers would not, these
laws would not prevent the grievance: that existed, nor curb the
spirit that was ripe. (Hear, bear.) If, however, they would not
adopt his wise and salutary course, the Slit way was to let the
Catholics done; for if it be true, as the Night Hon. Gentleman
says, that the Catholic fleet is collected by etenpuleion, the Rent
' was unquestionably very near its end. (Hear, hist.) And upon
this he would bottom his argument, that it souid be the wisest
course to leave them alone. If lie were tee moat hostile of the
Catholics, he should say, " leave them alone," for it it must either
exist from a feeling of enthusiasm, or not at at all—thew have no
alternative. If then the Heat be tonpulsory, the enthusiasm is
extinct, and the Association must tall. But did he say thatthe
Catholic spirit would die ? No, no ;it would not die. He would
would say that it would Increase more and more—this very Bill
would increase it. (Hear, hear.) This Association had united all
pwties. It was one-, perhaps a problem weether the Irish Peerage,
gentry, and peaatinty, would hula together ; it was contodered they
would not; nut now that point has been clearly and distinctly
proved, for they have accomplished that union ; this Association
had established the fact. It might be • question whether that
union would endure. You say, " no, it shall not," and you come
with your Bill to dissolve it. But this Bill will Hot have that ef.
feet. The Catholic leaders stand not only well with their own
body, but they have the friendship and goodwill of a great
portion of the Protestants. If you dissolve the Catholic Associa.
tion, they will retire with unshaken and unabated confidence in
their leaders; they (the Catholic people) will become more import-
ant in their own esteem, because they will see that they are so eon.
sidered by others, arid they will go on with more steadiness and
seal than ever. It had been said that the Catholic Association had
done a great deal of harm to the Catholic question ; but he (Mr.
Abercromby) did not think so. iVe were told that the Catholic
Association had taken the powers of the State into their hands, that
they had usurped the privileges of the House of Commons, arid had
assumed to themselves rights which no body of people ought to
have power to assume. But he would say that he telt that the im.
preseioti on the minds of the people was getting stronger upon them
every day, that thew. could not go on as they were. '1 he Hon.
and Learned Gentleman then pledged himself that he would,
through good report and evil report, hold to the Catholic question,
and he ueclared that in his man ton tnis was the best season in
which that question could be conceded. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Sir H. PARNELL rose, but for twine minutes what fell from
the Honourable Baronet was inaudible, in consetrence of the noise
occasioned by Members leaving the House. H e understood him
to say it was Important to observe, that nothing had fallen from
the Bight Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulbourn) which afforded any
evidence for supposing that the Catholc Association was not ides.
titledin principle and in feeling with the Catholics of Ireland. The
Right Honoutuble Gentleman endeavoured to induce the House
to conclude, that the Catholic nobility had been involuntarily
driven into an alliance with the Association. He (Sir H. Parnell)
had read • later from Lord Kenniare, in which that Noble Lord
stated, that the proceedings and principles of the Catholic Associa-
tion met with his unqualified approbattor. The House had heard
general charges and sweeping accusations urg d against the Catho-
lic Association; but they should coneidsr what were the real prin-
ciples, what had been the actual conduct of that body. Er parte
statements had gone abroad, and had gut hold of public opinion;
but nothing could be more extravagant than those statemeeta,
nothing more unjust, than the character which was assigned to the
Association. It should not be forgo: tee that the Homan Catholics
still laboured under grievous restrictions. It ought to be reunite-
(weed that they had sufftred monstrous irjueies. But what were
the objects of the Catholic AsericiAtioo ? Their obj eta were beet
explained by • document which they had printed, and which was
circulated throughout Ireland. From this document be should
state their objects. The first was, to forward petitions to Puha-
' meet praying for Catholic emancipation. aid also to forward peti-
tions praying for the redress of local grievances. The second ob-
ject was, to procure equal redress tor CA:Dalin and Protestants, and
to protect Catholics from the effects of Otimee siolence. The third
object of the Catholic Aesocietion was to prevent Orange meet-
',ions, and other public displays insulting to the teelings of Cathie.
lies. Another object, which might hose li en included in that which
lie had named, was to prosecute :Hating:ate* who countenanced
those displays of party feeling. There was another and most Im-
portant object of the Catholte Associatum—to promote education,
to print cheep books to distribute unto:4o4 the peasantry, said to
assist the Irish ('a--holier in America, by affording them the uwans
of relig;ous instruction. Such were the avowed objects of the Ca-
tholic Assecialen, and they were not idle objects cc pretexts. He
understood eleven petitions on different subjects were already pre-
pared, and ready for presentation. He also understood that they
were cotich,.d tit :he 111(1111. respectful Led unexceptiorable language.
With respect to the illegal proceedings with which the Aleteeneion
was charged, what evidence hall toe flight Honourable Gentleman
roduceel ? He (Sir H. Parnell) wishei, to call the uttention of the
House to this point, after what hart fallen from the Right lion.
Gentleman, who had suppressed the casui in point. The Caihohc
Association hail sent lawyers en different ecesatuns to assist in pro-
secutions, but had these lawvera ettdeas °urea to obstruct the admi-
nistration of juetice ? On the contrary, in almost every case, they
co-operated with the wegietrates, and used all their endeavour, to
bring about the CIRO of MUM. Die, lamas had been sent on 0.. e
occasion, by the Catholic Association, to assist in the prosecuttoa