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London, England, 1822-05-01 00:00:00


rattesvisar to meet the arguments by which he
supported his motion. When his Right Ho-
nourable Friend appealed to precedent as the
utoy guide for determining the justice or propriety
of raiding into this question, he (Mr. Peel) mast
precedents which he had quotes!
roans that the
did not appear to him very clearly to support him
in the coulee w'aich he bad taken. With respect
to the Act 13 Chitties 11. could any thing be store :
nsistal than that the House of Commons should
engines that measure ?—(Hear, hem, from Mr: i
(oining. followed by loud cheering.)—Did his
Right Hon. Friend propose to go the full length of
the 30th Charles II.? That Act dirt not widely
effect the Peers; it imposed both on theta and
on the C 1111 l mons the oath •gainst transubstatt-
tution. It was true it did for the first time int-
pose the oath of supremacy on die Peers ; but if
be rightly understood the scope of his Right Hon.
Friend', mutton, he did not iiitrod to place the
Peers sod the Common* on the same footing with
respect to the oath against trattsubstuntiation. Is
the reign of Charles 11. Catholics might, and ins
deed did sit in the House of Consensus, althoegb
they were subject to the oath of oripreanacy. His
Hight Hon. Friend was well aware that differetti.
I
opinions were entertsiord on that subject. If be
drew from soy records of that period in support of
his assertion, he knew that his Right Hon. Fnend e
woold say it rested solely on some antiquated '
musty document applynig itself to the gew
nets! question. but haying no reference what.
ever to this particular case. The question, hosts
ever, whether. by the Act of Elizabeth, Catholic
Peers and Commoners were or were not oilseed on
a different footing with respect to sitting is Perlis.
tacit, he would refer to on !authority of more recent
date. soil one to which no such objection would by
turd. The authority to which he alluded was that
of his Right Honourable Friend, the Member le
the University of Diiblio, who, in she course of the
speeds with which he prefaced the motion "hide
wss introduced by loth in the last Session, having
stated, that the whole question was then brought
under outoideration with • view to put an end .10
religious dissentious, sod to bind all the subjesttg
of his Majesty's government in one common bond
of
onion, proceeded to add. that " Roman Catholics
we, and were considered as entitled to sit, in the
House of Comma's as well as in the House of
Lords, until they were excluded by the Act of the
Seth Charles II.; and the cow of Sir Solomon Swale*
who was expelled the House the year before the
posing of that Act, proved the feet. fur he was .
pelted, not for being • Papist, but for be"
a Popish recusant." His Right Honourable Filen ,
sot Content with resting his argument on that
oar case alone, feeling that it might be urged that
it was the effect of a wrong judgment ef-the House,
had further appealed to the title of the Aot or 30th
Charles 11. as decisive of the point. The title was,
" An Act to exclude such of the King's subjects
w may be Papists from 'inn% in either House of
Padiametti." Thus it was, that when they were
called upon to consider the general guiles, they
were/told that they were mistskes, if they supposed
there exclutootos to be Coeval with the Reformation,
of with the Act of Elisabelli, for that it was not
until OM that they were adopted. But whew they
cease to agree on the particular case now before
them, Sir Solomon was quite forgot, and they ,
were told that the exclusion from seats in the
Home of Coin/eons was of mach older date, but that
the Peers contioued to sit in the Flooseof Leeds
clown to the period of the 30th Charles 11. Thus
they had arguments from two different authorities,
for both of which lie had the highest respect, which
were wholly contradictory. and which led to conclu-
linos that it was impossibk Is reeoacile. Standiug Da broad
sod coostitutionel ground', he most nosiotain, shot at what.
ever period these dithhillties were adopted the Hasse of
Corsairs' could not be subjected to any dithbilities from
whirib the Peers were exempt. Parham/at bad had is deal
with Peers us two oceetiirems : sue of these was the leish
(;sues. On that occasion it recognised so ishireet right iii
the Peery, but dealt with them in reaper. of the ergs.
latioaa fur their admission into Parliament, in pre.
irately the same manner as with she Commons.—
The ether case was that of the Seettish Petra; his Right
Illosoorable Friend had merle no •Ilosion to them, although
he had mentioned the Irish Peer.. He should, however,
slab to know *hat he intended to do with them; whether
he iateeded to qualify them to sit and to vote at the eke.
boos of representative Peers, from troth of which they were
dismialthed, not wily by the saatio, bust by as 'minim article
is the Act of Uniou, which declared " that so Scottish Pew.
being a Rumen Catholic, shall be allowed to vote at an eke-
him of • representative Peer." Those two Cease stewed that
a sever was considered that there was say thing ishereut is
the privileges./ the Perna,. which emitted them In admit.
-too to seats is the Hung- of Lords, free from sorb mtrictiowa
so were imposod in the Coloasiwo. Clue of the coasasissiemers
ay whom the orticks of Utiles with Scotland were framed,
Si' tha great Lord 80111,111, who if be had coosidered airy
seek right as iuhereut is the Peerage. would sever have in-
;reduced tie article ineatiaciletwip Pantile front voting at
(beauties; of Piers. lie was attempting is thin to tweet
the arguenmat of his Right Hoe. Friend, that is dispossess.
at the Catholics of seats is the House of Commons, they
lid esit deprive them of any peonies' of right, bat that us
the cement' the Peers they stripped them of a wiedege in-
terest is. their rack, and which be (Mr. Causilog) would
oat isterfere with except in eases of life and death. He
41d that the Flushed' Roman Catholic Peers were by the
Act of Charles 11. disposeemed of privileges oarlike
9 see which the Cuirisauas were entitled as of right
• enjoy. Was that the principle which be intended to
`dupe t If he dial, be went leo far; for it nut only pra-
ttled for the particular case of 'hove Peers now excluded,
lel ii weal to establish that at the some time that the
Awl, repro/miss tees of the Commons may be excluded by
dlsalaMies from sitting-In Pathan:rut, yet • power may be
Oen tot the Crown to totrodste ally number of the persons
so disqualified into the House of Lords. Hr (Ile. Peel)
Weald 'fay, that that distinction was unenustioatlonal,
Mad that there was nothing which should induce the
Hesse to adapt it. If they did adopt it, it would lead
to a g I devation of the Catholic. to power. It
aas maw six n mien months ages that the House had passed,
air the first time. a Bill for the removal of the disabilities
which at the Catholic 'objects of the restos generally.
"he wurrieof the Resolution un which that Ball was famed.
4, set forth that from the confidence of the House In the
handled his Majest.i's Rumen Catholic sobjeets, it was
I that She disabilities under wheel" they at present labour
.lietild be removed. Now what, he would ask, was the rule
r policy ur expediency ',loch made it advisable for the
Imare Sow, for the best time, to agitate this partial sera-
ire. grace the first time that any matiOa was made in
tat Hamm In favour of the Catholics, neither by Mr. Fox
.r Mr. Grattan, nor by any other of those eminent persona
60 had successively arlmm-ated their cause, had there ever
, sal the present moment any proposition been made, up-
Iper to the Peers separately, and plarieg thews on a dd.
"1 6'ogisse from the rest of their commooson • sod what
elf the eiecolostancis under which it was uu. lone ? AL
Right Hun. Friend, the Member fur the University of
~ had given nutter of his intention, in the coronae of
at Sea ' , to take the rashest 'Tool Weill to tonic
/bole 'object before the House. Why then were
wow invited to discuss this partial Tamura! Was

*l'

,11.1.11MA1 14"

it for the purpose el tieing to Hie Peers i• gaeallon, at
the close of the Union, the barren pritiiegt of sitting in
Parliament during the appioaehing , when there would
hit tie Parliament for them to sit in ? After the elospieut speech
of his Right Hon. Friend, he could not And that any case
had been made out to moiler it deslrahle for the Novae
of Commons at the present moment to go into the conside-
ration of the particular ease of the Pe.m. The geremeet
which his Night Hon. Friend seem►d to ►ace fisted with the
goriat soccer, in enforcing big care, was comprised in his sp.
paml to the eirestmairmees of the times in which there re.

strict iv, laws were passed ; mod is per•aence of his challeeee,
he (Mr. Peel) would attempt to examine halo that part of hie
ease. His Right Hon. Friend madeavonned to Is on the law all
the odium that could attach to it, as having been pissed in
coomentienee of the discoveries of the Popish plea. He (Mr.
Centime) contended that they were exempt from these dia.
abilities from the time of Elisabeth to 1678; and that theii,
in the terror of the moment, under the intluesee of the alarm
created by the Popish plot, the Legislature was induced to
pia the eoactmeiit by which they were crested. Now, he
(ale. Peel) would say, that that was Not a fair view of the
gumetost, and that it was only by euiwidesing whet was the
balmy of a kW* aeries of years preceding the period at
winds the Act was paused, that they could form a correct es.
tituate of t►e views and motives of our ancestors is adopting
Not meteor*. In almost all came, in atpriiiiig upou the
wet of soy pseticular event, men were apt to overlook the
leag series of p►edrsposiug causes, and to mitten, themselves
istlM •esigatsg mine perimeter sad proximate cease, which
woold epos invesnigstioa generally be found inadequate
10 Nee effect. To judge therefore of the policy of the Acts
of restriction which were passed at the time of the Refwr.
ovation, which were coallirmied and re•esacted at the Re.
whitlow, which were again confirmed •nd re.en•cted al
the diet/valise of the Bill of Rights, sad the exclusion
of • Popish King, it was secemstry to inquire into
the previous circumstances of the limes, which disposed
the snide of the people of the age to such measurer.
Whether Gentlemen were disposed or not to believe the de-
elanatioes of Titus Oates, he would ask them to look at the
whole previous period of our history from the lime of the
Reformation, mid to say whether there was not evidence of
a settle sod general conspiracy against the Constitution, the
aid the religion of the country? \Vh►n they were
considering Hoe policy of the Acts which they adopted, ►a
would ask Gentlemen not to look at H,. acts of Titus Oates,
but in justice to the preservers of the libertlea of the coats.
try, Is. lowa at the circumstances which pretested abuse Acts.
Ills Right Hon. Friend would, so doubt remember those
lines of a post, speaking of the plot in question—

" Succeeding times will equal madness tall.
Believing nothing or believing all!"
If he were to admit that there was madness so Ike side of
thou who believed something of the plot, he would ash,
•hat were the causes which could have predisposed the
whole Ration to believe such a tiestie of fabsicatiors as they
Were now taught to consider the declarations of 04101? He
would ask what it was in that period, which Mr. Fox cells a
period of good law sad bad government, by which the whole
%elk* wn► the Legislature at its head, could be so easily
loitered to credit such • tissue of falsehoods as the charges
against the Catholics, sinless there had been strong grounds
and many circumstances previously existiog by width
the public mind hid been prepared to view the Catholics
as persons likely to engage i■ such practices? Did the
House remember the attempt in the time of Charles 11.
to relax the laws against the Catholics, and to allow the
Diameters an equal participation is the emelioratios, sad
that much to their erriil the Disarmers, from • conviction of
danger to t be peers I liberties°, the eat toe, is the cooressioes
to the Catholics, refused to accept the warted boon, and
opposed themselves to the mrassie altogether? Did they
recollect the secret treaty of Charles 11. with Louis XI,. of
Fresco? Did they recollect the letters of Colossi, Swifter,
to Jaws 11. when Duke of York. by which it appeased
that r a' plait was prepay' whkh would give a
great blow to t►at pestilential heresy with which the
sciethere part of Europe was so deeply taisted !"
Whoa the House called to ■led the Pllcle of the secret
Treaty to w►ieh belied before alluded, wherein it ►eing de.
clawed that "the King of Great Britain, heists cueviseed of
Ike truth of the Catholic relive*, and rewired to became a
Catholic, thought the assistance of his Most Chastise Ma-
jesty weight be Necessary to enable him to complete his dr
sign ;" the latter stipulated "to assist the former with troop
and mow,, is ease his subjects should rebel against laim;"
when the House called to naiad the existence ofsuch a treaty
for betraying the liberties of the country, for • sum of two
hundred thousand pounds—or half the sem now expesded
on the Caleiknias canal,—he would ask whether it would
be prepared to say that at Ilse period of the Re.
formative no cause existed of jealousy against the
Roman Catholics; that nose such was to Infused up to the
Popish plot, sad the declarations of Titus Oates? The ad-
visers of the treaty in question were Lord Arlington, Lord
Clifford, end Lord Arundel of Wardowr. And could it thee
be wondered that the iudignatioe of Parliament at the ems-
duct of these Peers who were capable of gimeg arch advice,
should have led to the adoption of measures for the !UN-
moo of such pee.ons from seats in Parliament 1- His Right
Honourable Friend had argued that it was only wider
duress that the Lords could, in the face of their own order,
have agreed to the Art imposing tests under peualties
apes Peers iefisiug to take them. But IN su argos-
ies, he forgot that that very teat, spited which the or.
der adopted by the Peers was levelled. was inserted is
the Bill passed in 1675, which was order discussion at
the time it was adopted. That Bill was levelled at census
Lords spi, itual who were suspected of being 'erected wish
the old I f opposition to seats sod offires. Is the de-
bateus the introductiun of the Bill, Lord Shaftesbury moved
she order in question, which was entered on the Journals.
But Is the face of that order they did introduce the test,
silliest which a protest was entered on the ground of
its being neaitist the order, which was answered by the
Lord Chaseellor saying, that the Hoare was roster of its
own sodas. and could tufringe or observe them at its milieu.
Burnet, le speaking of it, says, the Papists opposed the test
because they knew that if any preerdeto of • test were es-
tablished, is would soon be turned against themselves ; ►et
Lords Shaftes►ury, Halifax, and some others opposed it, on
the greeted of ohs impropriety of applying teat■ to mil
Members of Parliament, who were rinstitutioual advise/sof
the Crown, sod as persons qualified to act as legislators,
must be qualified to exercise their own judgmeut to matters
of conscience. That was three yeses before the Act ter-
twining the test against the Catholics. If there were slay li
Acts of the Legislature which could be considered as per.
niameut in their weture, they were certainly those which fixed li
the Plutestest character of our Constitution.—(Hear.)—
If it had riot been the intention of the Legislature of ibises
days to consider those Acts as permanent, Lord Somers and
the Whip of the Revoltstton would nut, in 1690, so soon af-
ter that event, have intioduced the clause in the Art of
Ultima, ninefold that the Peers sad Representatives of Scut.
land should out be voted for by Papists. It was Nut without
surprise that he had beard the a►gumest whirl. his Right
Honourable Friend had founded os the circumstance of the
summoning of the Catholic Peers to attend at the ceremony
of the Coronation, bec.,use it had, in effect, the appearnece
of an attempt to discourage any acts of liberality red
favour, ins the fear of their being made the ground
of reproach for the withholding of further concessions. The
same feeling had also been suggested by the allusion to the
honours conferred un Lord Fingal. If any of the Peers had
been excluded fern the Coronation from • suspicion of dia.
affection, ur if soy person had hunted out of the rules of
the Order of Si. Patrick some forcible objection to the adonis-
sion of Lord Fingal, they never would have heard the taut
of the iutolrrance, bigotry, and illiberality, of thuse she
had advised the ttuve.eign to act toward■ them with so
marked an expression of dislike ur disapprubstion. Would
the mallow of his Right Honourable Friend cure nosy of
the anomalies now existing in the slate of the laws
•fectsag the Catholics ? Would the Roma• Catholics
as • body he bettered in their coodituns by it ?
Would it enable she Catholic Peers of Scotland to aft as Re•
presentative Peers. or to vote in she electiust of sect Peers?
Would the Roman Catholic Peer of Ireland, after being
enabled to sole for • Representative Peer. and to be himself
elected as a Representative Peer, in case of being elected, as
he was allowed to represent a resist), in the Cumnimis, be
tensed hart for refesiing to lake those oaths, from which be
would have been exempt to the House of Lords If it were
right that they should enjoy the privilege of sitting in the

• •%
•
ttrigliker Limit ; if it here right that they sholl4 ksiallhe as
Piers ; If ill were right that they +horrid sit w joAgmee &Al-
bs" comeorreentibus reelestrtro Ansheinsese, could it be right
that they 'Wahl be eticloeled by disabilities fnise "iffiest nu
the House of Commons? He saw around him many who
had euustsntly opposed lbs claim" of
,the Roman Catholics
on different' groomls, 'and he could trot doubt that all asset,
se had opposed the whole question on the ground of danger
to the Constitution, world stand opposed to the motion Of
his Right Winouridole Friend. He email, before he cow.
eluded, proceed to address a few oar& to those wits were
friends of the Roman Cate:dim mud supporters of theirelalhss.
There were many of those who adeocatad those claims that
thought that wt, the question rem at all dismissed, it
ought to be in the shape of a motion, which was likely to be
"fluid and coucilimorv." He had only to resisted them,
that this measure could not be final, sad to express his fears
that it would not be conciliatory. On the occasion of the
introduction of the measure of his Right Hun. Friend (Mr.
Plunkett) in the last Session, it was distinctly argued um the
grosiiid that measures of esscretion, soul of whet was per.
baps improperly called restriction, abroad go band in hood.
And when the Hotter. being prevailed tie to pass that Bill,
which rennemd all the restrietioos, had thought proper' to
regime severities, he would ask whether it could sow cove
seat to pass a meosore which would remove from • pert of
the Catholic body every tettlielituu to which the whole went
subject by law, and yet asked fur no securities ? Would they
nut when the g I question was brought forward, be tali
that they bad given the highest primleies to a few; thee
they had given the Crown power ,to iotrodnee as
"hasher of Peers into Pediment, frost whom ore see•rigial
were exacted; and would it sot be asked how they ippeo4
winw the restrictions to remain on the Homie of Cosemalla,
where the Members were necessarily limited, aid alma
the parties eduld unly sit for a short period? It wool 4
be in vain for them thee to appeal to the laws, whiet
established the Protestant chsearter of the Constitution. This
world be told that the Government of Ireland stood us toe
con/used a basis, sod that it could never be nettre atatig
the highest offices in it were laid open to the professor. of OW
religion which was followed he fr,000,000 of its ashjeitis.
His Right Hen. Primed, the Member fur Dahlia University
(Mr. Plunkett), faking the most rnlarge.l end eonsprehess
sire view of the question which it was possible for say use
to take, had arpntd that there was so Solemnt right in every
liege subject trf 'seism admitted into this Hums. Ile tumid
sot explain himself better this by quoting the 'melodic
vromisof tee Right Hon. Piked biebself. " I sprit," said
his alight lespooorable Freud, ?? in the peeemiew sef
eishiblesell toes, of assail cooseitottomil lewyery, led I
do woe fear enotreibmies Wes I say, that the
&eerie* of reelosise is not to be foetid' in the
British Coostitetiors. Ogre is • free monareity, eallt Is •
to•dismostal priociple of • muorreby that the Coy is en-
titled to call foe the emeiees of, la any limy, any of his liege
sobjecimaahre otherwise It world not be a monarchy" He
ailed lien abotber, if the lisle had revived its which they
might moseed from Ronson Catholic" every twirled*, which

shut them set foams the OM* It Lords, it was aloe
remove every disability Wlthifiallirred their
House of Countwons ? If the. them existed • general right
of admissibility I. alike, it was eel the part of the Howse
to paristpoie tim coacessium of that tight to sorest'. All bad
an equal right to privilege at the same time. The rAdeet of
his (Mr. Peers) address was sot to exclude Catholics from the
House of Peen, but to poropose the itoostderailow of their
particular ease until the claims of his Majesty. other
Catholic subjects should be also eousideredi sad wick corre-
spostdieg aeturittn costumedy given as it might be pro-
per to require. He had always believed that his Right
Hessierable Felead would sot be contest to take say
temporary concessive% and bad always bees of opialua
that the part of the 'pesthole regarding admissibility to
the Heave of Peers required a separate consideration.
He would sot move any previous gumshoe ; be would meet
tbe.propilattlow Is the most fair end open tasoner.—(Hear,
beer )-He alight gain an adirealage by moving the previous
issestime, sad the. emoting the House of C.omstiotts to pass
by shot smiler ecissiderstinsi ; bus be shouts mit follow this
course, he should meet the gunshot directly sad snasfully, as
be bad always done. He had always gives • decided oppo-
sition to the demigods of the Romeo Catholics, hid to fors
Ober cuoceoriows, end he should always persevere is that
coupe.—(ten.)
Lewd FRANCIS GOWER declared, that he shouhi not
othempt so Girton the Right Hos. Gentleman who had jest
est down through ell the topics Sr his speech ; bet feeliug •
livedyistered to the success of dm proposition, he begged to
be allowed shortly to slate his memos fee supporting it. He
esood dove as the aderieste of • greet set ol justice. If the
solde and illustrious pentane to who. it was ;wormed to re.
Apra the chows of the Horses( Peers were as much infected
with bigotry as any persons who bad ever entered the Eger.
viol, still he would sot ausheipate any danger from introduc.
lug them iota that of which their auscestors formed • part....
(Haiti hear.)
Lord NUGENT said, that he could not see me what prin-
ciple the grounds on which asses! was demanded to this par.
heath propeeition could be separated from the meows-
stenos of the question in geueral. The quertion appeared
to him to be upon this—was there any necessity? and if sot,
whether there was soy justificatiout ie exeludiug ma religious
groanda lb. Roman Cathodes from those privileges to Which
•II whir descriptions of subjects were retitled? He thought
that on no other general grounds mold Ibis orestioa be pot,
but certainly uu noise so clear, awn ea moue so advssiegeono
to the parties must nearly isitevested is the decisioa.—
Their case hood simply us this: that throe disabilities
(prated exceptioss to the geseral principle of the English
laws sod the spirit of the Constitution. He cosfeesed that
he WIN one of those who differed from the Right Hen.
Mover, with reference to the ground of general cuseessioo,
for be should sieve, shrink from meowing his opisima, that
the complete sad universal restoration of privilege was •
matter of right—and on this emend, that from the messiest
it was made taut a swatter of justice, it was also a matter of
right.—(Cheers.)-11 seemed to him that frost yes, to year
the oppoeeuts of concession were Wood to smoke est
some case to justify the tXCIIIIIitIII of the Catholics room
rights otherwise common. He showed beg leave to ad-
vert to use point which he thought ba4 sot be.. soli.
civilly pressed by the Right Hosuurable Mover, which
was, that the Act itself proved that it resulted from
temporary causes, sod foe specific penman. The Noble
Lord thew read the tilt, of the Act.. and proceeded le ob-
serve, that it was (*.hided on what ems • blot in our history—
oil evidence wheels few people is England could now be
fussed to believe, and enforced against persons who no per-
son is Englaoil would say were worthy of such penalties.--
(Hear, hear.)—This became clearly thew • question ofjostiee
sad right, soil the withholding privilege was founded
tin wasitus and manifest injustice. He should take leave
lo say, that it was singular cootieb that one of those
bulwarks hid safegoard• of the oussiitutiom, as they were
called, he alluded to the declaratiou against transubstas.
whim, was • deeesation eeriest that doctrine which
Queen Elizabeth would not suffer to be discussed, which
Martin Luther hail defended, and for his support of which
• Henry hit Eighth had received the this of Defender
of the Faith. Now there was a declaration on oath solemnly
resouncing that doctrine which our first Protestant King
found himself hound to support—(hear)—and if they looked
to the thiriy.nine articles, they would find that it was not at
hansom with the articles elf the eathittslintest, sad that this
deelantiun so enacting, was merely headed for the purpose
of enabliog us to call 9.lOtha of the people of Europe ido-
,laters, and to deprive a great portion of the people of Eng.
land of their just sad hideout rights. Let them look for a
moment to toe sieges io the Catholic Peerage, and they
would dud the heirs Sr the De Moubray., Fosallans, and
Malt ; Talbot, the descendant of the man also had
twice wos Freda', and added the shield to our escutcheon.
'The Doke of Norfolk, the hereditary Earl Marshal of Eng-
laud, disqualiaed from exereistag the most ordinary act of
total jortsdictioa. Here was the Earl Marshal of England
with the name of Howard, who could sot affix his name es
• aligiatraie to a decision coucerning a parish rah.—(He.,,)—
Upon the particular gyration on which they were this night
employed, he could assure the House that be had come to a
determination with greater diffieohy and hesitation than ho
had ever expetieseed on any other. To that great cases
which this question was intende.l to promote, he trusted
'medic! nut to assure the House of hi. devotion. HI wit
COSIICIUY4 it was iutervroven with the lint priseiples ed jots-
lice and wisdom—with the bist principles of nioaarelap, which

were ant to he shaken by the objections of the kr. Poe. Cent.
Rut he confessed Heal he did feel cystitis objections tea sup•
porting the qui atioor at preseas under consideration ; and if
be did au feel, it was simply in the belief, that, before tong,
the circumetiosees attending It appearing to him ohjectina•
able, would be lost and merged in the great triumph sof gene-
ral Paso ty.—(llear)--Riot he had no hesitation in saying„that
if they should pees a law conforieably to the prole-at
motion, and that the march of tuncession was to stop there,
Ira should even prefer the present law, monstrous and
anomalous as it was, and vote against she motion, because
he thought the carrying it *could de no good, and establish
iu some respects so •000maloue principle. It established Di
good principle; he (Lord Nugent) had never supported the
question but on general grounds. Oa all former uccutuaa
his vote had been grounded on this, that soy man who di..
charged the duties of a ciliern was fully entitled, whatever
his 'religious opinions were, to all she rights of a citosen-
that this Rill fed ow suds general truth. On the cam.
Crary, it was to isiptor hack the law to what writ justly cues
soldered, as usconmitootional sod bad state to what it was is
she reign of Charles 11. in a period of religious permetteion.
This was not the state so which he would wish to ore the law
altered. In the present statruf the lawtit separated &ulnae-
men front Eoglishmen, and Catholics from Prolestiuta rte
religious growails--thal was vicious; hut this sot
mended divided Catholics from Catholic', ow no. g
all. It was therefore oily in the hope that berme long tbf
great eneasure of g I emancipation would be carried that
he did not oppose the present assitiou. That measure would
Mil be an innovation, hot a restoration of right. taken away
on false evideoce and fele, retraces. The Ruble perealle
now at the head of the excluded clime had sever drolly
their conipasions ON suffering. Ibis attschmeat to the ertee,
of their unforiosiste fellun-subjects was a melancholy die
tinction ; but it was a destiomius worthy of the best bleed
In England. which Rowed I. their veins.—(Cherra.)The
Right Honourable Ornateness who had brought forward She
motion had stated, that it was without the knowledge
coneent of those noble persons that he bad made his proper.
sition to the Horse; sail if it were nut unnecessarily intrude
ing on she House to twenties a commenieelioa of priests
friendship, lie could read oar from a person among she uhe
jests of the motion, couched ill terms which would at least
canamod conciliation and respect. He could, he repeated,
make known to the Howe a truly bigb.spirited disclaimer
by • Noble Frusid of the proposed boon. If lie were asked
why he did not same him, he as.wered, in delicacy; that be
felt ashamed that should he contemplated bee'
tweets the Nobility and the rest of the Catholic body. He bad
moo, wood more to offer on a point, considering which he could
am help thinking she origination or the preheat measure we,,
questionable policy. The House well remembered, and the
Right Hoa. Gentleman well remembered, the •triumpluot
issue of the trial of she general question last year. In three
great debates and four divisions the question aiirmosintedgthl
opposition. There was nothing is the constituthes *Oka
Horse of Commons different from that of last yam e
Hies were they now so come back so a single breath, to a
part only of the conelerion to whirls they had SO strongly
pledged themselves ? He regressed that Hite elution had trees
brought forward; at the same time, be could met bet give his
vote is farmer of it. The Noble Lord them adverted so the
prospect of conciliatioe and peace held out by his Majesty's
'bit to Irelatid ; and after rootlet the testimony of
the late Mr. Gulls. the had consequences
dow-
log front attempting to ;rent Ireland by division, sad
amyl"' party against party, nal dews amid defining.
Mr. WA RRE observed. that RoMaa Catholics had bee*
excluded from both the army and 6..7. but were admitted
to both services a few yeare back by a meat insportast wer
sure, which had not only, received the SOOCiillgi of the Gee
remotest, but had emsnaled from them, aid (eerier(' the
Royal Assent within a few days after it lead passed the two
Homes. From this be inferred that the Ministers them-
selves had set the precedent which the Right Hos. Gentleman
sow wished to follow la other particulars. Is reply to the
objection of Mr. Peel to a measure arteries( the commit shoo
of the eater Hesse should originate la this, be addoced lb.
example of the Semennlat Bill, whith originated in the other
Hover, though it eaclesivey coin:emit' this. -He called the
attendee of the House to the history of Lord Montagu. He
had sat in this Rouse and had been sent by Queen Mary for
the purports pf retroociling this country to Rome. tVlue the
Rill atinpressacy was prnpused, he stood op sod opposed it.
Within foe, ?sirs after Lord Memoir has them exposed bin
Catholic propemstits, this etioutrp was threatened meat formai-

dably by Philip and this very Laird Montage arm chosen
by (lofts Elisabeth to avert the clinger by negotiation
The %lees bore hiss to be • Catholic, but as honest sob-
aad his missies was successful for that tow. He he.
tiered that if the disabilities which excluded the Catholic
Peers from the Horse of Lords were repealed, they would
form swim valuable members of the Legislature.
Mr. ft. MARTIN hoes that the Catholics of the comely
which be represented. Ned of !related generally, looked with
greet ausiety Bribe derision on this question. They wire
most &axioms foe lbs soccer of the measure, though they
might appear not to be interested in it themselves; and he
alarmed that W there were time numerous Petitions is its
(scour would he presented. He by no means looked es
Ibis as treathisg ow the general question, hut whether it
did or sot, it was uot for him to consider. The Right Ho.
ermarable Menthrt (or Oxford had dose a great deal in sup.
port of a bad cause; lie had made the worm appear the bet-
ter reason; but he thought that he proved tot much; for
the wholSof his speech wrist to this, that we ought nut to
have greeted the concessions which we haJ granted. His
opposition would have been mole applicable to the proposi-
tions made, and the privileges conceded in the Irish Meuse
of Commons. It mattered little what the conduct of the
Catholics had bees corollaries ago, the question less, what was
their conduct sow?—(Hear, hear.)—Mr. Martin, is concha-
Mon, amid peals of laughter, illustrated the conduct or the
Protestaiita to the Catholics by .E.op's story of the wolf
which told the lamb he would rat him up, brassie his suers. !
tors bad been wronging him many years. The cries of
"Question!" and " Withiraw!" then became very loud and
coolisued mete mlanies, which caused the drat few sea-
testes of the following speech to he inaudible is the gallery.
Mr. PLUNKF.TT declared 1.4111 he should trouble the
Heuer het a very short time indeed. From the course which
bad bees pursued by his Right Honourable Pries.' who
had °petted the debate, sod that of his Right Hum Friend
(Mr. Peel) who hail replied to hint, he preferred gulag into
the 'smite of the general qoestios, sod he felt that the sub.
jest had beers a* exhausted is the cpening speech of his
Right Hun. Friend, that he must fail in attempting to Intro-
duce into it any thing Dowel. Under these circumstances
be should sot tremble the House with a single obserratios,
were it not that the general question hail been put into
his hands by the Catholics of Ireland, mid as he had re-
ready gives notice that Ise should brim( it snider the Mimi.
deraiiun of the House in the ensuing Session, if he remained
silent on the present occasion it might be inferred that, In hid
opision, Ike motion of his Right Hun. Friend interfered
with the gcueral qurylion, or that the rights alba people of
Ireland ware not involved is its decision. It was princi-
pally to negative this inference that he now rose. He fully
concurred in the motion of his Right Hos. Friend, because
he 81101101 that the success of it tended to advance that of
the general question.—(Hear.)—Bat if it even did not,
he should still support the measure, because be thought
it in itself an emential act of jostice.—(Hear, bear)—
When he had had the honour of submitting the question al
large to the consideration of the House last Session, they
had gjveu it their sometime. Yet it was found that though
it had been carried, it was carried is • way which created
considerable rmba sssss mem. It was necessarily involved in
considerable details, and aceompasied with mewl ties, width in
his opinion were necessary to satisfy Om House mad the aim-
try. He knew that nothing was MOSS fair than the eppsai.
110.1 given to the meastire by his Right Hun. Friend (Mr.
Peel). It erns moat fair, open, dii cm, and manly. Bat the
friends of the msosnre were mooch embarrassed by opionit• .
The dimmers against which the Bill provided were under-
rated, merely to undervalue the securitte. provided. The
Roman Catholics were excited to oppose meats parts of the
Bills. to short, there uaa so sort of difficulty or estaulle-
ment to which the stfrocatet of relief were put subjected.
Therefore, to him it was a great advantage—that here was
a meamire so certain aad precise that it exclniled cell
those einharrammenta to which the former bad been ',ems-

manly ratiertad. II promised steaming the Nubility of
England ■nd Ireland 10 their hereditary Itosiars—lo.:
those hereditary !manure which had ■lre■dy bee• par-
tially reduced. They had already received their privi

• -..

_~ _.;

1

414

lege of being legal ielyisere of die triers, Oim ifiii wohid
go further, and make them advisees of the Legislature. It
Would amiable them to offer that advice whtelieliey stow give
trieately, and in the ear of their &reveille, eohliely auJ 141
heir place ill Parlisment. He did not God this airy bl,,ec•
lions were now made to the jamb= arid se:silos,' uhc
Pleasure. It well resisted open pule!. or 'quintile (if be
might say so) and mists of furor. To this Hum., who
had fully agreed to the enteral roomier, he, del not isel
it in be • greet objection to the partial aseastite, that a poa•
elble conseetience of adopting it might he lbe arisni,tiog fine
milieus of subjects to a participation i• the commoi, righla
of the subject..--(ilear.)—He was proud tu th
submitted to them in such a precise and defi•ile "hope that
• it would hind the Member@ of the House*. as men of
honour, as !redeems, to lay their Wools on their
hearts and state what reasons seemed to 'juelify these
to condone /esti ictions. But before they. put, their
whoolden to the doors to shut out the heirdatafy
Peerage from she House of their surestorm lie celled now'
them au say what security they would effort to these olio
so* sat in it, if hereafter, in some hoar of Creep; /..14151. per-
jured Titus dab • should moue forward to strip diem ufe bear
honours and &polies. The object of the modeii was to re-
verse an Act of ittaiuder, the causes of which bail gone by,
and the slit ills of which reminded es of Sin 10,11.1•4101111111•bilt
traneactious to English hisprny. The cause they knew was
to secure the ?feudalism" of the crown, the possessor of
the therm having bees at the time mispectetLef being •
Papist, and the successor known to be enc. It was well
known that if the Reclusion Bill could hue. 'been car.
tied, this would Never have been proposed. The object
bad bees to avoid a certain danger ; and wheedled bees
dose? For the fault of one larasch of the ilogislature
they posislied another; fur the od'eece of the Crows they
puatabed die innocent members of the Catholic Peerage.
His Right Hon Friend had said that the lew was wet posed
meetly on the Cathulicient of the Creme Nor 011 "emote' of
the pretended Popish plot; but he said there was sonlber
plot ;Wept on egoism the Coutitution, and the Romps Ca-
tbulics of England were to he misplayed airiest thefliale, is
connection with F . He would allow that the Roma*
Catholic@ of that day were trilling to go with the Illseg
the lime: it was so imputatioa on them—it was not is Lee
stn mature to set otherwise. Bet was dim any mews Cu.
saying that the Roman Catholics were sew disaffected ti
the State—aud could soy me mat that ?—This catam-
ount= rather made in f f the Catholics. Time
there was probably a Roman Catholic on the throes; now
there is a Pt-mutest—then the Romeo Catholics were
not well affected ; Now they ate. IVhy then cooties, those
penalties ?—(Cheme.).-With great deference be begged to
set his Right Hon. Freud right is a historical feet cossetted
with the Revolmion. TM °adhmit' oppreisacy was meet totted is
the Bale( Boehm, bre not *some of the reecerstiee. I he remelt'
why it was aterttosed was ibis: the oath as originally framed.
not only deprived the Pupe uf, hot claimed to the Qua% of
Keened she power of spiritual heed of the Chard.
Afterwards it was provided shot in mitten perely spit-Mal
she Qates should set be easeidered the head of the Morel.
Therefore it oil seeemey testate this inhetitute is the Rid
of Rights, otherwise there would have bees so oath of
Supremacy. Whets the Revoletios was elestioned, be
was at a lees to loam what was wrens by the lawn
the Revolution. Was it meant that all the laws which
preceded the Revelation, sir all the laws which were
Famed at the time of the Revolution, or all the lees
which followed the Retrolitioa were a part of the Is.
waled*. ? If se, we had been deist away with the laws
of the glorious Reuistion for sear a century.—(HeatThe leaser mousey had been roomed preview to the Ile-
moieties 1 the laws fix preventing Catholics from appeemek-
leg witMe ten miles of Westminster were passed at the
Revoletios ; and the mustrons mold code redwood the
Revolted's.. He eheold be glad to know whether the
10th sad II th of Mihail 111, that Motiou Ad, the
history of *bleb was gleam by Ramey sad assiusileeded
en by Berke, essetitatted a pate of the taws of the Rus-
hdies; that law which deprived the Catholics of ode-
cation, of property, tied of religion. The hider, *Utter
Act was this..-the prewelest party is the Hoses of 011111-
atom wishing le entbeerese King William, whim meaterf hail
been so greatly maligned is primmest the views of
brought Greseard data semere for the merest of belsgwag the
King iota odium with the country by rejecting it. The Court
pawn me through their dean's, and loaded it obit mere
and greater absurdities to prevent its poem"' the Hesse of
Lords. Thai House, however, swallowed it down with all
Its absurdities, and it passed ; so that awe' the emotest of
Burke could scarcely add to the feelings of mind 1111G4
which one read the aellWast of the leareartios. After
citing an extract frost Burke, the Right Hon. &gale'
man proteetled. world be bold to say, that all the sage-
meets which had bees reed against the Act of the last Sem
sloe, and ageism this inuistis, might have lees roman
well used against the cusereorm• d 1713. If the. the loos
which preceded and followed the Revolution did lint make a
part of the Revolution, it was rot by gong to asy particular
law that the laws of the Revolution were to be known, but
by studying the character and spirit of the Revolutiou itself.
There was no greater mistake than aspposmg thee the pie.
ciples which placed the Home of Bromwich ea the Thome
of dim realms, demanded the exclusion of any close of °yr
fellow.enbjects. He trutikl not deity that a debt of gratitude
was owing to the Protestant religion for the aid which was
given by it ; but it was the spirit of freedom to which tee
were mainly indebted, foe by that dm Protestant religion had
hue nursed. He would net fatigue the Hort= by gots( it
say length of historical detail upon that point, but it woukl
be recollected that when Henry VIII., ill his caprice, thought
• St to f the birth of the Reformation, the real cause ef
the pimple going alien with him was, POI 'bat they disliked
IM abstract principles of tlie Church of Rome, en the cog.
leery, the peep= were prejudiced in their favour, mid so wee
the Kier, but they disliked the emscitoes of the See of
ROWS; they were averse, from the ieterference of a foreits
Power, to the prejudice of the liberties of the country. le
'the sameeditit reigns of the Stuns the people sew they had
me security fur their rights, except seeding away the King,
who professed the religion of the Church of Items, end "tea
it was which established that committer suppmed to be in-
dirnoluble between Popery and slavery. Bet no person
could be • greater enemy to the Protestant establiatinavat
than he who sought to fund it on the redaction of the
civil rights of the subject. it he could 'Mew that ell the
into" uf the Pramual Cherch could be preserved if ills
Measure passed, so doubt it /meld give a great facility to
the arguments as favour of it; but if it weer 'betook that '
while the Prmeetaut religion existed the Catholics could set
he admitted to the Cosailtetion, it world cettainly be a
greet segment against the measure, but it would be dearly
purchased. Mr. Rurke had said, that if ever it should he
believed that the Protestant religiun was snowed so say
greet portiou of the people, he ahould tremble for its safety;
therefore lei no man say the" I his meager'. sac in, ornoment
with the security of the Protestato retiree and Si., *Hi..
H. had not must to go so far into this mineet Ashes a,
had list risen, tier should lie hare rben at MI but le prevent
the implicatiou of hostility if he had remained aural. Ip whit:•
ever way the m was proposed, wheels, r eel were/P.OV..
rally, or only in port, he should consider it as a debt of
jlwtice, nom or lose complete in proportion to the extent
to which it should be carried. If it were Menu 'd even foe '
any individual, be mild aot refuse it ; and he tell that every
hour it was denied they were guilty of sdslitessal in-
justice. to confirmation of what had berm said by
IM Honourable Member fur Galway be would Miro.
that the measure *could be received in Ireland as a measure -
of
1/1&C• 401 i C011eill•i1011, 1110.1 every ///b••, whether Peer yr
commoner, would .kw it ir that light. With tropics to this
being toesidered as au lettrfereree with the p.t.ileges of
the House uf Lords, he did nut think U. argutuetil pi mot
much, and what there was is it bail been stre..J) elisweret,
when it was said that as the measures wh,co impireed the
disabilities proceeded from list House, so the measure of
relief should also originate there. Sat it 101(01 be said
that the disabilities affected other classes beside" Ow
lords; but the Statute of Sth Rateatoth was not at
all affected by that argentite The ie.t was not ie-
senon4 10 exclude the K01•.1,11 W*B a lest
loyalty, and many llamas Ceded,' a beet it: bat to Store
who did hot take it, it me as eboulete ileatilLiy 'llse cases
uf the Tnentital and Semen:al was. .cell more in
puiut. Hut this objection came will, ii ci ," ewe from
the House of Peers (so. ohm meow,' it . put forth).
Lest Semite a voted measure was at tit up to the Ilmise of

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