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London, England, 1805-05-14 00:00:00

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theyies would have given any such description of
Their real principles have long been
themsel
e vesi
and verified upon oath The oath pre-
.,.;:h-leAdimbey the Aft of Parliament had been taken
—an.d. recommended in Ireland by the four titular
Archbishop-, the Bishops, and All the principal
clergy of the countg. I remember having had
n a conversation ofi this subject with a Catholic
once of high charai9et, and whose having a
eat in the other House of Parliament would have
been lard rom being a dii;race to it, mean the
in which 1 asked him why he and
late Lor?etre,
other, of his persuasion were so anxious to have this
oath prescribed to them ? The answer that Noble-
ran gave was worthy of his. charafter
tl eir anxiety arose from a solicitude to refute the foul
ohunnies that had so long been propagated against
tl em," Another argument made sue of upon this
snbjeft is not unworthy of notice. It has been said,
that, because so much bad already been granted to
the Catholics, it was rather unreasonable that they
should ask any more, instead of being satisfied with
what they have already obtained. To this I an-
iswer, that the history of mankind, and of the world,
is ageinst such an argtunont. The true and uni-
versal principle is, that, with rights, men should
always acquire a great similarity and equality with
the rest ot their felloW subjeas. When they cease
they should consider themselves as
to be slaves,
Alen; and in all such eases, the invariable opinion
will eternally be, that till they gain all, they, in
some respeas, gain nothing. Ciet we so shut our
eyes to the historyu and the nature of
mankind, as
vainly to suppose can impose pfmil-
lions of people, by granting them only a part of
what they are entitled to, that they will be con-
tented with it, or that from the moment you
panted them one point, they, did not naturally
',pile to the attainment of all ? Fortunately. in-
deed, for us, and for the country, you have already
liven so much, that very little now remains for you
inrant them. Let me /51C, you, Sir, are we se-
c is trusting whole tribes of the lowest and most
ig. rant Irishmen. wild and illiterate as many of
elm Are, with the defence of the country against the
r Prey, to whom they are supposed to be so partial,
e:!i4e we are afraid to trust any person of the same
c.nonanion, however great may be his talents,
loth ore office of Secretary of State ; or men of
fie highest rank and consideration, such as Lord
Tinged orhis brother, with the duties of a general ?
If I were asked whether I should be most afraid to
toot the higher or the lower ordee of the Irish ? my
lamer would be, that I was afraid of neither ; but
certainly, most unaccountable does it appear to me,
that these very persons who deny to the Irish the
benefit of the Constitution. from a dread of the
tamper and charaaer of the lower order, should
t—s,. that lower order at the same time that they
ci-trast and disqualify the higher. The lowest
cows in that community have, by law, all the
meals th-y can desire. of tumult and disor-
der. sad, by some perversity of principle, the
very highest classes of their own persuasion are
totally deprived of any power or authority to restrain
erquell them. Is not such a conclua, Sir, contrary
to all the common laws of common sense ? All that
the Rirnan Cath slice now wish for, is indeed im-
mense !or them io gain. a' the same time that it is
nothing far you to give. Nothing can possibly he
more reasona' le than their desires. They asked for
an equality with their fellow sul)jeds ; they humbly
clime* !lassos 'pal rights, and be governed by
equal laws. This, as I, said hifare, is an im-
mense thing fo• them to receive, and it cer-
tainly is not'ang for you to give then:. Their
claim was pertelly consistent with the laws
of England, which, more than any others, have ever
recognised that equality of laws, which reconcile
men to the several stations allotte in them, as has
been well :old beautifully said by the poet (Gold-
smith) in hn ouservatioas on Switzerland :

" Thrtugh for the peasant's c,t t:i.• be smart.
" fir sees, in his own Lt, the I.t of all."

Unfortunately, however, this consolation has bees
hithenciatenied to Ireland, which the present system
Las condemned to eternal misery and lowness. I
have heard, and heard certainly with great concerti,
that this Petition and its objed have not been fa-
vourably received by many of those who hold the
highest rank in the ecclesiastical concerns of this
Connery. I certainly should have the highest respect
fir the opinion of the very respedable and venerable
persons alluded to in questions even of policy 1 but
upon questions of mixed policy and religion, I have
vier been led very much to doubt their competency
of decision. 'There is always on such occasions,
somethine bordering upon party. which blendsit-
self with the judgment, and cannot fan to interfere
with the integrity of opinion. But it happens even
upon this subjed, that I am satisfied with the autho-
rity of a gentleman, who, though not highly exalt-
ed in ecclesiastical dignity and preferments, pos-
seses a reputation not the des high in this country's
Sir the soundness. liheralit y, and orthodox y of his sen-
timents; I believe I need scarcely name Dr. Bayley,
who says that, " he sees no reason why Men of differ-
ent religious persuasions should not consult and de-
Iraerate together on state affairs, or any other, quite
ZS well as if they were of the same religion ;" and
corning more immediately upon the present point.
he adds that, •' the connection between popery anti
jacnbinion might have been a justification for the
restridions on the professors of the former ; but as
that connedion was accidental in its origin, it must
naturally cease, as soon as that accident could no
longer operate." (In quoting these and some other
passages, Mr. Fox took occasion to pay many high
ciimpliments to the talents and liberality of the
wrecr.) The next objedion which now occurs to
Mr, and which I think it right to notice, is that
which has been wade to the time of bringing
tins petition forward: Now, Sir, as • to that,
I certainly should think that any time was a
proper one for the performance of an aft of
policy and justice; bat I am also ready to admit,
that the time when there existed the greatest neces-
my for doing so, was that which was selefted by
the Gentleman opposite me, immediately after die
completion of the At of Union. With regard to
that measure itself, I need not now repeat that I
was hostile to it, and I certainly have seen nothing
since which could induce me to repent of that opi-
won. I will not assert, in contredietion to what
some persons have been pleased to say, that any
liked pledge or promise of emancipation was
then held out to the Roman Catholic, of Ireland ;
but, as it is evident that something was said or dune

which gave them reason to erpel it, the duty of
at least malting the attempt was incumbent upon
those who held out the expeetation. But now,
Sir, I must not pass by a most insidious and invi-
dious argument drawn from what is called a
point of pi aaice. It has been alleged, that, while
re.itriaive laws were in full severity, in the
years 1711 and 1743, the Boman Catholics in Ire-
land had no share in the rebellions which broke nut

at these two periods; but after the principal indolg-
encies were granted them in 1793, they readily
joined in the conspiracy; which ensued in the year
179f1. It required a considerable degree of patience
to give any thing like a temperate answer to such
an argument. If it goes to any thing, it most obvi-
ously goes to the revival of wretchedness, slavery,
and despotism in its fullest extent; and deplorable, In•
deed, must be your situation, if ,you have no other
remedy left but to return again to restraints, cruelty,
and the severest tyranny. Will it he contended,
after 41 we have seen, that the circumstance of
the French Revolution made no difference in the
minds of men, as well in Ireland as in other coun-
tries? The effeds it produced on the minds of
the Irish was, not as Roman Catholics, but
in their capacity of subjeds, for it did not
appear that the Revolutionists of France bad
a preference for any one religion over another.—
Ihere are also some other circumstances which can-
not be overlooked in reference to this argument.
It is pretty well known that the Protestants, or ra-
ther Dissenters, in the North of Ireland, were not
very well affelled towards the principles of the
English Government, and the hierarchy in particu-
lar ; at the same time, that they were no less hos-
tile than the High Churchmen to the Catholics of
that country. This state of things continued till
the French revolution gave the two parties of
Dissenters and Roman Catholics an opportunity
of corl.sring or concurring in endeavours to extort 11
from the Government the Lull toleration they looked
for. Would Gentlemen also forget the intervening
circumstance of exasperation to the Roman Catho-
lics of the Administration of Earl. Fitzwilliarn?
That Noble Lord. of whom it mast not be supposed
that I can speak without some degree of par-
tiality, certainly held out to them the most
decided and unequivocal boon of a total eman-
cipation. Whether he was authorised to do .
so, or not, I will not now argue ; but I con-
tend, that the Roman Catholics of Ireland had at
right to look op to the Lord Lieutenant, as the
proper organ of the British Govetnrnent. In con-
sequence of that promise, on which the people re-
lied, by some intrigue in the British Cabinet, Earl
Fitzwilliam was recalled, the Roman Catholics
were deceived, and bitterly saw that the cup of con-
solation was suddenly dashed from their lips. Will
Gentlemen, then, have no fellow-feeling, no sym-
pathy whatever, for the resentment of men placed
in so galling a situation, however tranquil and qui-
escent their condud might have been before ? We
do not find, that before the period of Lord Fits-
william's recall, there was any co, respondeace or
connection between any disaffeded in Ireland and
the Government of France. It is not, therefore, un-
reasonable to inter, that the Rebellion which took ,
place in Ireland in 1795, was in consequence
of the recall of Lord Fitxwilliarn in 1795,—
Emmet, M'Neven, and the other coripiratots
who were examined in Ireland, fairly declared
that the pretences of Carbolic Ifonesseipetion
and I'ariiamentary return were n ,t worth a pen-full
of ink, or the paper on which they were written;
but they were expressions so alluring. to the multi-
tude, that without the use of them, at was evident
the conspirators " could do nothing. The aril
which would necessarily be produced by the remov-
al of the restriCtions now complained of, was still
more strongly evinced in the alarm, which ap-
peared to be a crime amongst the parsons who
were anxious for the separation of Ireland from this
country; but the restraints upon the Catholics
should be removed in consequence of the comple-
tion of the union. At that memorable period,
though it may be fair for Ministers to state that they
could not have pledged themselves to the Catholics
as to what may be the sense of Parliament upon the
subject of their emancipation, yet it is certain
they held out such hopes as induced the Ro-
man Catholics to give great support to the
measure of union. As a proof of the pains taken to
inculcate the opinion of their emancipation in
the minds of the Catholics, he read an extred from
a pamphlet, addressed by a Learned Member of
that House (Dr. Duigenan) to an Hon. Friend of
his (Mr. Grattan), wkom. he was happy to see then
in his place amongst them, in which the writer said,
that if the countries were united, there would no
longer exist any necessity for curbing the Roinanists
with any restridive laws whatever. This statement,
continued Mr. Fox, coming from a Learned Gen-
tleman, mato has ever been forward and violent in
opposition to any indulgence. must have made a
considerable impression, as he was supposed to have
spoken the sentiments of the British Minister. To
this I have tnrther to add, a publication from a No-
ble Lord (Sidmouth). formerly your pry lecessor in
that chair, and now holding a very important situa-
tion in the ministry. in which sentiments of a similar
tendency are stated, though the Noble Lnrd was
and is a professed enemy to the claims of the Ca-
tholics. If, therefore, the persons I just alluded to
drew such inferences from what they thought
would be the effeßs of the Union, are we to
be surprised if the Roman Catholics should draw
the same inferences. The Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite, with several of his colleagues, also re-
signed their situations in the Ministry, at a critical
period, on the ground that they were unable to carry
this measure, which they deemed essential to the
real interests and well-being of the empire. If
such was their opinion at the time, I cannot but
think that, even if no petition had been presented,
it would have been dangerous for the Right Hon.
Gentleman to defer beyond the year 1805, a mea-
sure which he thought essential 'to the well-being
of the empire in 1801. Fortunately, however, fur
the Minister, and the country, the principal Roman
Catholics of Ireland met together, and ckew up
this loyal and humble petition, in which they did
not set forth their numbers, or the justice and po-
licy of their demands, but expressed their hopes of
redress, from the liberality of Parliament The
hopes which they have formed of the success of this
application, I trust, will not be disappointed, and
that, even if they should tail in the present instance,
they may have the consolatory satisfelion of being

able to state to their countrymen, on their re-
turn, that their cause had, beets taken up and
adopted up by those mer., whose talents, viaose vir-
tues, and whose elevation. are in the highest
estimation amongst us. There is, Sir, another
sobjat, on which I know not, till it he expressly
avowed. how I can well exgress niy opinion. I
mean the dark and mysterious oblation of this pe-
tition having no chance of success, even though
it should be adapted by two branches of the Le-
gislature. Whet 1 have heard some Gentlemen,
when conversing with me on this subjed, say—" I
like the Petition and its ebjeets as well as you do,
but where is the use of my voting for it, when I am
confidently informed, it can have no chance of suc-
cess?" My answer is, constantly,--P We will have
a much better chance of success if you will vote for
it " 'this mysterious and unavowed oblation is
whispered to me as springing from some construe-
tiou of the Coronation Oath. Now, Sir, if 1 was

to propose any thing, which I thought contrary to
His Majesty's Coronation Oath, I should consider
myself as a disloyal chara.fter, and a dishonest man.
When the Parliament prescribed this oath to be taken
by King William, it would be absurd to suppose
that they prohibited him from passing any Bills
which had received their own sanaion, and were

presented to him by their own authority. If King
William was himself alive now, he would find the

meaning, upon which this AEI was acted on, different
fts,m what he understood it; but even supposing that
it was intended to have bound the King in his legis-
lative capacity—a most preposterous- doerine !
it could only relate to such Mis nr Bills as might
be contrary to the fundamental laws of the king-
dom. That it should bind the Sovereign not to
pass wholesome laws, sannioned by the two Houses
of Parliament, is too ridiculous for argument. Be-
cause it be maintained that His Majesty's saation
to any Al passed in consequence of this petition
would be a breach of his coronation oath it must

inevitably follow that be has already broken it in
passing the Adt of Union, the Aa of 1799, and all
those other Aes either of indulgence in Ireland, or
of regulation with regard to other places. These
rumours, I percoiv.-, have been industriously buzzed.
about, in order to deter members from voting in fa-
vour of the Petition ; but I contend, and shall ever
contend, that nothing of this kind i; impossible to be
done which the Parliament shall think proper to do.
I neither can nor will believe, that any branch of the
Ittitish Constitution can so far forget its duty as to
suffer the circulation of reports so injurious to its
unity. Nothing is more clear or more distindly de-
fined, than that the power which has a negative in
the last resort has not, aml ought not to have,
any right or power of interfering with the free
discussions or either House of Parliament. The
fair and just prerogative of the Crown is the
corner-stone of our constitution, but can never
be pushed to an unconstitutional extent. To the
prerogative branch, I allow that some sacrifices may
be made, but unconstitutionai sacrifices can never
proceed nor be recommended by those who really
love the King, but by those persons Woo would flat-
ter him, in order to betray him. Haring said thus
much, I think proper now to explain, that my mo-
iron will be to have this petition referred to a Com-
mittee, to consider and report upon it, meaning to
follow it tip with a report either of all or some of the
restrictions which now press upon the &Annan Cativo-
lies; tbls pcdnt of view, the gist objea to which
I should wish to point the attention of the House
would be the army. As the law now stands, an
Irish Roman Catholic may be is officer of any
rank up to a General, and a General also, but
not upon the StalL or ever to be again employed.
ant no sooner does this Roman Catholic officer come
to England, than he is subjected to severe pains and
penalties if he does not conform to the Prote,tant
rules here enforced. The Catholic common sol-
diers of Ireland are also promised the free ant's un-
restrained exercise of their religion, bet as soon as
they come to England, not only are they prevented
from going to a mass house to pray, but are fre-
quently compelled to go to assist at a protestant
church, contrary to the stipulations made with them.
It has been said that this is capable of being reme-
died by their officers, but I am much Misinformed
if I could not prove that, so" far from this remedy
being praaically applied, the reasons given by
officers for not doing so frequently were the fear of
offeuding their superiors in command. The nest
subjeft -I should propose wonid be the state of
their marriages, hot this I shall not take up
the time of the House by arguing at present.
The third subjet I think should be one which di-
vides itself into two branches : first the restraints on
the prerogatives of the Crown; and secondly, the
restraints on the rights of the people. I know that
there are some who think that there would be no
oblation to the admission of Catholics Into the
Executive offices of Administration, though they
are of opinion that they ought not to be allowed
seats in Parliament, and others who would have no
objection to their sitting in Parliament, though they
would wish to exclude them from executive offices.
Either of these opinions in my mind would be a
sufficient and strong argument for going into a
Committee, when all the reasons, pro and eau, would
be impartially and dispassionately considered. I
hope, now, Sir, that I may be allowed to state some
of the advantages which 1 think would result from
the adoption of-my motion. It is in the recollection of
Gentlemen, that, in the last and present Session of
Parliament, much time has been consumed in en-
deavouring to devise the best means of recruiting
the army. It cannot be expeited, that I should ap-
plaud any of the feeble and inefficient schemes that
have hitherto been adopted ; but were they even of
a far different charades-, they must be powerless
and paltry, when compared with the certain and
efficacious resource, which this measure would in-
fallibly afford us. In the beat and honourable
wsnith of the Catholics, after this triumphant vic-
tory over long-standing bigotry, we should have
the heart, the zeal, the ardent spirit, of this grate-
ful and warrn•hearted race of men, to fight the bat-
tles of the Empire. The most glorious eff 'las of
the most illustrious conqueror could not possibly
atchieve so much as that which I now pnopose of ad-
din to your strength—one-fourth of the population
of His Majesty's European sttbjeds. That which
is now youtiveakness, would then conseaute your
strength—ai the Protestants of Ireland have been
heretofore deemed scarcely sufficient to repress the
disaffedion cf the Catholics. Ido not propose to
you to augment the strength of your garrison-4ut

.

M

a much better thing, in converting the be-
iegers. into a Tart of that garrison. You mill
then find valiant officers in. men whir, heretofere.
seldem could itink7to he even serjesnts ; you will find
=here!' entree/ler:al; in those who could not be-
fore have even hoped to be subalterns. Whatever
former differences might have existed, they Will, ,
henceforire)q, have only one heart anti mind for the
safety and -eery of the British empire. I confi- •
dently believe in the loyalty and fidelity hf the Irish,
but I woulclnot wish them to be pressed ton bard is
their present situation, and set there to fight for a •
constitution, in the advantages of which they Are am
permitted to share. Is shall not detain the Hoes,
any longer at present, as I expeaehe usaal indulge
ence of a reply to any objeaions which may be of
feted to what I purpose, and shall therefore' cos-
dude, "that the petition of theßoman Catholics of
Ireland be referred to the consideration Com-
mittee."
Dr. DUIGENAN began by referring to the
transaCtions which took place in the Irish Parlian •
ment at the time of the Union. and declared him-
self *to have been a decided advocate for that mea-
sure; but that it was strentiougly opposed bei the
Roman Catholics, who met in Dublin by delegates.
and published violent declamatory resolutions upon
that occasion. The oaths of allegiance and supre-
macy were such as he never wished to prevent the
Irish Roman Catholics from taking; indeed he did
not hold it necessary to form exclusive laws for
that body, as exclusive laws were only mane :ix
traitors; but he would at the same time boldly
declare his sentiments ; and these were, that every
man was a traitor to his country who should main-
tain that his country was held under any foreign jut
risdietion whatever. In looking over the Petition
from the Irish Roman Cittliolics, which bad heed •
read that evening by the Clerk, he could not avolkl
making a tew observations—The first epos the
list of signatures was the Eta of Shrewsbury, a
respet'lable English Nobleman, but who had little or
no conneetion with Iceland; nest to him was
Earl of Kenmrare, who derived his creation from his
present Majesty, neverhay tie been, strictly speaking.
a peer before, his ancestorhaving been created a peer
by King James, after his abdication; next to hine
was Lord Oxmentown, whose ancestor had beets
attainted for high treason; but who, by the clemency
of His present Majesty, had been restored to the
title and possessions of his foretetheis. In short.
though the names of several NOMETYI23 were af-
fixed, with a view, doubtless; to give a kind el
son tine and weight to the prayer of the petition,
he must remark that it was signed by none of the
Roman Catholic Nobility of Ireland. who had been
such at the accession of His present Majesty. There
were besides the signatures of three Irish Baronets,
two of whom had also been created such by Hit
present Majesty. lie had also to observe to the
House, that out of no less than nineteen counties rf
Ireland, not one petitioner was to be found in the
fist; and from the four counties of Cork, Weefm-d,
Down, and Lowth, there was only one subscriber
to each of these counties ; so that, in point of
fed, this oue,ht not to be considered, as wan al-
leged, to be a petition coming from the general
body of the Roman Catholics of Ireland. There
was also the name of one Gentleman signed be
this petition (Counsellor Scully. toeallg ualifeneei
to- him perettelaltry and who came over here upon
this occasion as one of the delegates from thy
Irish Catholic.. He was, indeed, surprised to
find, that the anther of a pamphlet. which he heist
in his hand, should be singled out, and placed
amongst such respeetable company as the other de-
legates certainly were. Thar pamphlet was entitled,
" The Advice of a Roman Catholic to his Brethren."
in which the author evidently meant to excite them
to a spirit of rebellion. Speaking of the siege ot.
Limerick, he stiles it " a noble defence Made Against
the Dutch invader (King William) and his myrmi-
dons." Such was the language of this mus--and
that only a year before he came over here ae or.a
of the delegates to present this petition. ;inch then
was the spirit indulged by some of the rtitionertt.
In the said pamphlet he also quoted Mr. Barka
(who. if he had been alive, would net hare been
much obliged to him for so doing), under the pre-
tence of making a friendly apology for His Ma-
jeny, and his infatuation," as he is modettly
pleesed to term iti " liable." he observes, " to many
fits of humour and caprice, and to many mistakes,
He goes on to explain away " the quibbling evasion
of an oath," whilst, with no small effrentery,hesriles
the Parliament Houseof Ireland, "the Club-House."
How such a man should have been able to gain the
confidence of the Irish Roman Catholics, so as to bet
sent over to this country as one of their delegates.
was to him matter both of surprise aad regret I
Arid he would leave it to the Henze to guess with
what sincerity, and with what disposition for peace
this petition was sent over, under the patronage of
such a delegate, and aetuelly signed by so small a
number of Irish Roman Catholics ! The Petition
went on to say, " we have sol-mnly taken the oathp
prescribed, and which are expressly inculcated by
the religion we profess " But he must remark,
that the oath prescribed by the Parliament of
1793, none of these Roman Catholics were ob-
liged to take, except by such of them as were
called to vote for members of Parliament. He
had also to remark, that not one of the Romish
Clergy of Ireland had signed this Petition. The
oath prescribed by the Parliament of Ireland of
1793. was neatly the same with the declaration of
the tour Apostolical Vicars, and yet they chose to
disapprove of this oath. and even sent circular let-
ters to those of their communion, desiring them by
nu means to take that oath. This it was which oc-
casioned a great difference between them and the
Roman Catholic Gentlemen of the Laity. Such,
however, was the influence possessed by the Ro-
man Catholic Clergy, that in 1793 those parts of
the oath (chiefly what respeaed the power and ju-
risdiaion of the See of Rome) were expunged, as
disapproved of by these Apostolic Vicars, and this
was done, as it was stated, by the approbation of
the Apostolic See. Now, if the Clergy of the Ro-
mish Church in Ireland have, as has been stated,
aCtually taken this oath, this must have been done
contrary to the judgment of the Apostolic VicarS,
and of the Apostolic See. In the Irish and Romish
College of Manaoth, established in some sense by
the Parliament of Ireland), by a particular clause -
in the Alf GI Parliament, the Prefeiscirs. Ste. of
that College arc expressly excluded from taking
this oath. The priaciples dawn by the 440.
• •
—ad

•
his Gentleman (Mr. iota as the foundation
g this petition, were similar to those
Wet tepee netted by King James the Second,.
the MN riot to his abdication. 11w learned Doane
'id, that the Catholics profess great reverence and
obedience for their general councils. Now one of
the decrees of the Council of Trent (and which Dr.
Troy calls a general Council) is that the Pope has
power to dispose of the Crowns of Kings, and to
dispose of their territories. &c. to Catholics; also,
that no faith is to be kept with heretics. &e. hese
decisions of Councils, Dr. Troy is pleased to call
" infallible things in point of doarine." He
would ask, with what casuistry spiritual supre-
mo cy could be divested from temporal power?—
He then proceeded to notice the language of
other modern writers, particularly of -Dr. Mil-
ner, whose definition of the obligat2on of an
oath, was such as intended to shew that His Ma-
jesty'; Ceronetiou Oath was not binding. This is he
who backs the Roman Catholics of this country—
and who, in conjunaion with Dr. Troy, Mr.
Pkwden, Bi.hop Usher, See. unite in !assert-
ing that the Roman-Catholics have never changed
one iota of the tenets of their ancestors !
Re would grant that every individual of the state
was entitled to equal rights, provided he did not
bold opinions inconsistent with the welfare of that
state Dr. Duigenan then went through an histori-
cal dednetion from the days of Queen Elizabeth,
the circumstances of the Irish massacre in 1611,
the plots against King William. Ste. and imputed
them all to the bitter fruits of Rornish opinions.—
Ile had little deubt but in a Parliament or toe,
eighty Catholic Members would be returnee, and
such a number of Catholic Members would make
their own terms with any Minister ; probably get
into their hands the whole patronage of Ireland,
and then what security would there be for the
Church establishment ? He concluded, by giving
Iris hearty negetive to the Motion
Mr. GRA C FAN then arose and said—" Sir, I
shall endeavour to avoid the example which the
lion. and Learned Gentleman has set me. I shall
endeavour to avoid all animosity upon the one side
and upon the other. I do not remember the minute
detail of all the rebellions to which he has alluded ;
but I do knew that the causes have long since ceased,
and that the animosity which they produced should
cease Also. I remember the cause, and I regret the
animosity ; I wish the Catholics to forget both.
The question is not, Sir, whether you will qualify a
few Roman Cathy lies to hold the first offices in the
state; whether a few Catholics are to sit in this
House? It is, whether you will impart to a fifth of
the whole tepulation of your European Empire that
spirit, without winch it cannot be defended? a ques-
tion, Sir, regereing the happiness, the integrity. and
the vitality of the Empire. These are the beilefits that
must result from the measure, and before you will
forego them. you will req sire better arguments than
any v.iiiclithe honouraele and learned Donor has
given. According to these arguments, the Irish
Catholic is the irrecoacileable foe of the British
Government. They say, that the Catholics are an
execrable race. They nuke a distinelion between
the people upon the score of religion, which I con-
tend is fallacious. and assert, that to be gond Ca-
tholics, men murt be b id subj4.l3. This argument,
Sir,_ fesolves itself into eternal war in the bosom of
Ireland, eternal war with England, and eternal
peace with France. ( laud epp'ayse) The speech,
Sir, of the learned Donor, on which this argument
u maintained. and this doatine held forth. is such,
that if any Catholic in time of war should publish
it he must be indifted for treason. If the Ho-
nourable Donor were to be answered by examples,
I could thew him ass excellent branch of Irish Ca-
tholics, the merit of whose public conduit forms a
contrast with their private opinions ; but I prefer
following his arguments, which resolve themselves
into four different species, embracing the past, the
present, and futute generations ; for it is well that he
was stopped by the limits of creation, or he would
probably have gone on and assigned some other.
Sir, I know ye, y little of subjeas in which the Hon.
Doeor is and °tight to he very learned; and, per-
baps, if I did, it would not be very grateful to the
House that I should indulge in them. Although I
shall not enter into a minute discussion, I must differ
from him generally upon the several heads. I con-
tend, Sir, that there is nothing in the religion of the
Irish Catholic irreconcileable with his loyalty ; that
any member of that persuasion may be equally
attached to the Government as any Protestant sub-
ject, and that their_ attachment is founded as much
en the principles of their religion as in the exigen-
hies of their situation. The Catholics have shewn
that they arc the subjects of the church, and not of
the Pope, and even so much can be collected from
the elecrees of the councils of Laterne and Con-
stance. The latter only goes to the discipline of the
chinch, and the former has so little to do with the
subject, I wonder any rational man wonli notice it.
Besides, it took place 300 years before the Protestant
religion, to which it is represented as hostile ; and,
to form an estimate of its folly and absurdity, it
concludes with these words : " Virgins and married
women may holiever be agreeable to Cod." But the
business does not rest here : the matter has been
aompletely settled. The Roman Catholics have
obt.unesl from six universities, Louvain, Dohay, and
four others, upon several poiats submitted to them.
a solemn testimonial that they may be good and
loyal subjects. In 1703. three questions were put to
them, vie. whether the Catholics should acknowlege
gm dispensing power of the Pope, his right to ab-
solve 'Weeds from their allegiance to their King,
and one other, and the ans.-:es was, that to none
of these was the Roman Catholic subjea. Rut
ehe question has not been decided Gales by the an-
swers of the six Universities. The Catholics have,
in feet, gone a great deal farther. Nine proposi-
tions have been framed and subscribed by them, in
which they abjure all claim to Protestant property,
and to the property of the church, in form and prin-
ciple. la 1793, the Catholics desired you to name
yew own terms. The Learned Daher himself
drew up the test, in compliance with the request
which was sworn by the Catholics, who avowed their
• allegiance to the King. while in it they disclaimed
&I right to the property of the church, and of the
- • • was formed into an oath,
by the Roman Catholic
ly by the Catholic clergy.
IC Catholic has so right to
has the Protestant a right
Did the Doctor mow

mend this test in order merely that the Catholic
might perjure himself? Was it to Work no gond,
to rectify nothing that was wrong, but merely to
enable the learned Doctor to say to the Catholics
taking the test, " Hitherto you have been traitors,
but now you are perjared r If there he any con-
sistency in his arguroint, such must be the necessary
result of his do trine; and therefore, I contend,that the
Learned Gentleman is answered by his own test."
Mr. Grattan adverted to the principle laid down in
the speech of the late Earl of Clare, against the
Catholic claim, in which be said, that his great ob-
jeftion was the adherence of the Irish Catholic to the
Church of Rome, after which he thus proceeded :
" Very well, a test is formed by a Protestant Doc-
tor, by which this class of the people become Ca-
tholics, and cease to be Papists, and yet you continue
to visit upon them the crimes with which they were
charged before the change. I will shew the Learned
Doaor, that he has not only acquitted the Catholics,
but convicted the laws. which he wishes to defend.
Whet he says, every Catholic is an enemy to his
King, he acquits the Catholic, and convifs the code.
This, Sir, is the natural progress of all polemical
discussions. You begin with a fatal candour, and
end with a fatal violence, and in the heat, tempest,
and fury of the arguments, the lips of the bigot tes-
, thy to his own refutation. lam told that the Irish
Catholic hates the English subject, and the Protes-
tant Government—l deny the charge. I appeal to
those Members of this I louse, who, as English Se-
cretaries, resided in that country, whether they ever I
found, in the Irish, an aversion to Englishmen? To
one Lord Lieutenant, an Englishman (Lund Fitz-
william), I am sure I could appeal whether the
Irish did not approve of his Governmera, and love
his person ? 1 want to know in what province or
country of Ireland a Protestant cannot live in har-
mony., with a Catholic ; an Englishman with ~n
Irishman? Will the representatives of Clare,
Kerry, or any other county, tell me that in Ire-
land the people do not love the Protestant, or
the Catholic, who uses them well, and protels them
from murder and plunder? I shall lay it down as
a principle, that no rebellion in Ireland has ever
been founded in CAMS that are permanent. Reli-
gion, Sir, was not the cause .of the rebllion in
1641, nor of that in 68. The former was pro-
duced by the disfranchising of an less than eight
counties ; and the second, by a similar policy, such
as the driving of the Catholics out of Dublin, and
other airs of severity. la the second, there was an
abdicated King ar the head of the Catholics in Ire-
land, and domestic persecution was leagued with
foreign conneCtion. If the blood that was shed in
the battles of King William shall unite the tan
seas of Protestants and Catholics, I shall rejoice in
the death of our ancestors. If not, and it has flowed
in vain, I shall suppose, that there is something pe-
culiarly uufortnnate in the formation of an Irish
understanding, that makes not only the blessings,
but the visitations of Providence useless, and entails
the sufferings of their ancestors as a curse upon their
posterity. I can icier, Sir, to the dispatches of
successive Lords Lieutenants of Ireland, and to four
Axis of Parliament, as evidence, that the Catholics
have been loyal for a great number of years. I
now come, Sir, to the rebellion of 1793. No one
will say that that was a Catholic rebellion. Upon
this sulrjeti. I can refer to the Report of the Secret
Committees of the Houses of Lords and Commons,
that 99,000 men, and nine counties of Ireland, were
is rebellion. I can also refer to the official dispatches
ft om the Lord Lieutenant at the time, that the Saadi
of Ireland remained true to their allegiance. Now,
which is the Catholic part ? Why the South; and the
army seare marched to the north, while the Com-
mander in Chill applauded the loyalty of the south.
Catholics, no doubt, were involved in it ; but it was
a rebellion in which Catholics followed the example
of Protestants. As hog, Sir, as you continue the
restriaive code, you cherish a Ruda* 'mimes, you
preset ve a something that makes every epidemic
dsease fatal, which amalgamates with every thing
defective or vicious in the constitution, and aggra-
vates a slight and chronic complaint into a mortal
disorder. That the Catholics should be loyal under
restrictions, and rebellious in concession, I deny. In
support of this position, it is necessary to refer to the
past ; but in doing so I shall not state any thing that
may revive old animosities. Ido not wish to make
the Protestant quarrel with the Catholic, nor the
Catholic with the Protestant. Therefore. when I
go hack to the rra of those concessions, I repeat it.
merely as history. The era commenced in 1788.
Two years after, we had no army in Ireland, the
French commanded the Channel, and the Catholic
aid the Protestant guarded the country. In twelve
veal s after, the Catholics claimed the eleCtive fran-
chise, and, in i 3, one of the wisest speeches ever
made from the Throne was delivered by Ilia Majesty.
The Pal liament, however,would not answer. and, in-
stead of complying with the request of the Catholics
as stated in their I'etition, an attempt was made to
hang the Petitioners." Here Mr. GI Atte* went
into an historical detail of the Parliamentary pro-
ceedings upon that occasion, the result of which, he
said. was, the Bill passed the English Legislature,
but was thrown out in the Irish, and the King was
thus robbed of the gratitude and the people of the be-
nefit. " I have now gone through that part of the ar-
gument that affects the past and the pi esent, as con-
neaed with the question. With regard to the future,
you must consider that you are now repealing
the penal code that has subsisted for hundreds
of years, and the habits which have grown op with
it. But let us not deceive ourselves, or others, by
over-sanguine promises and expectations of imme-
diate and complete circa from the repeal of the law.
You cannot., at once, remove habits of such long
standing. The operation of the repeal will. how-
ever, like the progress of the plough, though slow
and scent, be effectual and certain. It will gra-
dually produce the full harvest which it promises,
and it will stop the mouth of clamour with its own
words. I consider the Catholic religion abstrafted
from the Court of Rome, a icable religion with
regard to public safety. 1 cannot suppose that
there is any this in the climate of the coun-
try, or the physiaZ constitados of its inhabitants,
by which an Irish Roman Cotholic must be
of necessity &loyal, unless, as the Learned Doc-
tor seems .to thialt, the Roman Catholics are
cursed by the book of Revelations, by the fa-
ther and by the mother. No, a bad system of
policy is the some of the faults ascribed to the
Catholic. Man is fallible; God is not. If I see
a auabeekhy. epos a certain Aso Ipessese the

•,!M• • -

•
same regimen will agree equally well. with another.
So the same policy which made you a great people
will do the same for Ireland. It has been said, that
the request, it granted, would only give the Catho-
lic a few seats in this House, and access to a few
places; but this is every thing to the Catholic: it
gives them an equalhy of right; it gives them the
whole Parliament of (RA Members, by thus creat-
ing a common interest in every Member of this
House, for the force of each part is the force
of the body. The merits of the Catholics, as Chris-
tians, must surely outweigh their defects as Catho-
lics. several Acta, particularly that of 1778, as-
sert the necessity of admitting them into a partici-
pation of rights, and that of 1793 goes farther,
and says, that they shall have all civil rights. Oh!
but then they are not to have political power, and yet
surely civil rights eaply political power. Here then
the Act admits the Catholic innoxious, and condemns
the restrictions. Here then I have the two seas identi-
fied, and the question resolves itself into, whether
you will grant them the thirty-eight remaining
offices from Which the Catholics are excluded ? It
after granting so much, we quarrel here, we must
be guilty of the greatest imprudence. Ireland helps
to seven the ranks of your army, and she supplies
one-third of your navy. If you injure these, the
Catholic part c.f your army and navy, you injure
yourselves. And you do a great injury to the Ca-
tholic understanding, by preventing that growth
and expansion of intelled and talent' which the temp-
tation of attaining the highest station in either must
create. By the distiudion, you place him under
a ;peat disadvantage, and subjed him to emait from
his inferiors in merit. You also do an injury to morals,
by laying a foul:dation for hatred and jealonsf
between individual: of the same community. You
du an injury ti the peace of the country by perse-
cution, and encouraging the little man of blood to
raise himself into power and consequence, by bar-
Tossing and sexing his countrymen. Ireland exports
five millions, besides one million of corn—and her
revenue is considerable. A nation in that state cannot
be far behind us. The law which gave the Catholics
property, the eledise franchise, and so many other
rights, gave also to the Catholic political power.
The argument, therefore, which would refuse what
the Catholics now ask, goes to take back every con-
cession which they have obtained. The acquiescence
in their petition can be no abridgment of the Royal
prerogative, nor cause of danger to the crown. Al.
legiance is not to be measured by what the king
has, but by what the subjed receives. Therefore
is the Peer loyal by his title. the Commoner by his
seat in this House, and the peasant by virtue of
Magna Charta. As to the influence of the Pope,
when he was taken by the French, and lost his li-
berty, he became nothing. Captivity was not a
proof of his strength. One part of his power was
excommunication. Arc you afraid that the Pope
will excommunicate one-third of your army and
navy ? The other popular arguments are, that the
Catholic thinks every Protestant an heretic and
damned. I might appeal to Archbishop Usher,
whether the Protestants too have not in their turn
thought hardly of their neighbours? But if you go
on thus, the Protestants colleding every thing that
can be said against the Catholics, and the Catholics
every thing that can be said against the Protestants;
you argue against the majesty of the law, of juskice,
and of Heaven; and as sedaties of religion.
you will get into a miserable squabble, and pull
up the foundations of your faith, to fling them at
each other. Will any man say, that the Catholic,
now loyal, will become disloyal, by the grant of his
request ? Will any man say. that if you put him into
an office, you will drive him into rebellion? There
is one argument no: touched upon, which I hold to
be material. I mean the Revolution. If you make
your Revolution of 1688 the measure of your
policy towards Ireland, you will ruin that country.
At that time Ireland laboured under a proscrip-
tion of trade, of Constitution. of every drug.—
The Revolution of loia contains two opposite
principles. One of them, which is the prin-
ciple of liberty, must spread and flourish with the
progress of civilization, and that is the p:inciple
which should extend to Ireland. The Petition of
the county of Oxford, which states that the Ca-
tholics are hostile Rothe Protestant Government,
does not do jastioe to your Roman Catholic ances-
tors, who preferred the Petition which constituted
the Bill of Rights. It is not true that your liber-
ties burst foal) in 'a conflagration. It was the
fire light of this vestal ae which conduced
you to the destined goal. But the course which
you are now pursuing is I,:ss calculated to keep
France in check than Ireland in thraldom. It
has been said. that Ireland should be governed
so as to keep the government strong, and the
people weak. That was the principle which existed
wised I broke the chain. Another said, it should be
a sort dodger tuortaum---a party government. and a
party religion. You said, upon the Union, that in-
corporating with the government is strength ; and
will you say new that incorporating with the people
is weakness? In the British Empire, you have
possession of the finest part of the globe.—
As there is no exclusive Providence that watches
over that empire, so you should have no exclusive
code nor inheritance, but make your laws analo-
gous with the laws of Providence, equal, universal,
and extending alike to all its inhabitants. The Irish
Yeomanry, who have performed such important
service., ate, io a great part. Roman Catholics. If,
upon the eve of any great battle, your General
should order every Irish Catholic to quit the ranks;
if your Admiral had ordered every ish Catholic
sailor to go on shore. what woulerhave become of
youf army and your navy A system of proscrip-
tion is, therefore, a great evil, and if it were univer-
sally odad upon, your army. your navy, and your
empire, would soon evaporate. Why, then, take the
words of individuals, of priests. and bigots, against
these great and universal principles? You have
been looking at the magnitude of your empire; now
look to the fnagnitude of your danger.—
The whole world ts now reduced to France and
England.—A power like Prussia, for instance,
may mist ass secondary power, and maintain a
certain partied of respell and consideration ; but
the moment that Eagiand ceases to be the first
power, she ceases to exist at all ; and we know not
soon we shall have to ight in the hist extremity
for the honour and the glory of that high station.
Examining this question, you say IreLnd is your
vulasrahle part. • Why 1 Because you hays sot
'oversell her well. ID iniland, with Irish buds,

I.ol.7Bllnrat „ ^ •

with Irish hearts, sq. with Irish blood. ale the
fate of this greet. kuteaut. autio81;;T• more. be
probably decided. In contemplation a(tbat event,
you may vote your army ; bit minable that armi
invincible, you should vote your peasioas, yoU
want patience, but you wa morel you want
the ardent spirits a the Irish ea attach them to your
cause, and embark them in the .duatinks of your
country. By granting the Petition. the Catholics will
not get six seats in this House; but you will get
three millions of spirits. Let your liberty, like
your money, circulate every where, but centre no
where. Savage, Arthur Youngsinan,dl4othe:ear *ltt,ittecli
extol the natural wealth and capabilities of Ireland;
but she is still poor. from the want of that, the
possession of which made you strong, and the
withholding of which makes her weak. I shall
always speak of the Irish Parliament with parental
affedtion, and, I most say that,
more for Ireland than you did in 100. But, there
was one thing that ruined us. Upon the day &-
Irish Parliament rejected the Catholic Petition' l the
voted their own abolition ; and, if you adopt thee
course, you may work a separation. The-Irish
Parliament, no doubt, gave many good and pious
arguments for her condied, and there she lies with
all her good and pious reasons. Why will you rust
in search of old prejudices like a grown upchild, and
buy foreigners with subsidies, instead of subsidisieg
the affedionS of the Catholics by kindness ?---
The Catholics have got much. and they will
he too wise to go to sea again; but, in my mini,
nothing can prevent the success of their cause, bin
some tut bulence on its failure. I would say to :he
Protcstent, you have got possession of the land cad
of the power, would it cot be wise to male it per.
mancnt ? You have expensted twenty millions, and
have an at my locked up in Ireland, which is lost to
the empire, and only useful to preserve the Protest-
ant monopoly. Both Catholics end Protestants shoull
be united. Both should fight the enemy, and not o e
another. This would do more for you d,an a its ooa
alliance or contingent troops. I know the goof I
upon wfgch I stand. I know the truth of what I
say. I can appeal to the past. eit was the objea
of many of my contemporaries, the first men of the
country, now no more, of Gardner, i f Daly, cf
that great man Mr. Flood ; it was tl e dying
wish of a celebrated Peer ; it was the wish of Doc-
tor Lucas; and yet these men had not before then
the great event that has since happened. Pro- e
bad not conquered all the neighbouring solo.,
and acquired such an immense preponderance
in Europe. Would it not, then, be wise to if,:
that now which was wise then ; that if any unisor
change-should taktplece, we may not say that o-:
were unprepared? Tour ancestots were fed upon ti is
manna. The Irish were net so foitutate. fief
of Europe is now against you. and you are di. .
ded from each other—but I am exhausted."—
Here Mr: Grattan abruptly concluded a most do
(latent and impressive speech of nearly two low..
It commanded great aotention, but was se frequently
linternipted by applause. we have been able to give,
we fear, but a eery imperfct sketch of it.
The ATTORNET.GEiNERAL, having taken a
view of the subjed, at some length, cousadeted that
the proposition before the truust could not gise t' at
satisfy Zion to use Peitioaers, a hich they sought ;
he thought it impossible for a Protestant Member of
Parliament to propose to a Protestant King, a Ro-
man Catholic measure. iVe were not, be said.
prepared to establish the Roman 'Catholic ilkligiva
in Ireland, nor to tithe fiom the Protestants of that
country, their land, revenues. and other property.
With iespoa to the value of the me Buie to the
R noan Catholic body, he thought it could hate no
material eilha in favour of the clergy and the lower
closo and could (oily he advantageous to those who
sought great offices in the State, or were candidates
for Wei in Parliament. Coesidering its operation
on the Protestants, as well as the Catholics, it must
tend to the breaking down of the barrier which sup.
ported the Protestant's and no proposition was mote
clear than where difference in religion divided the
subj,•ds of a state, one party or other must have the
ascendancy. The measure cool/teat conciliate the
people of Ireianel, nor remove disaffedion, sad he
rasher condemned the present moment as an impro-
per time for bringing the speedos forward.
Mr. /h I.EXA !ODER spate with some warmth
against the Motion, he said he was astonished to
hear the fEn. Gentleman (Mr. Grattan) address
the House as he had done this night 1 he had knosra
him for a series of years beating down the laws and
constitution cf his country /a food try if order!
order!) Ile had taken a warm part in behalf of
a bieanted peasantry, end in the time of rebellion,
he ley dormant, while himself and other loyal mm
we making exertionsto TDell it.
Mr. WILLIAM SMITH expressed his wish
to deliver his opinion shortly upon the subject; but
if, however, he should perceive that this temper cf
the House was not then to lima to him, he wouLi
feel it his duty to move to adjourn the debate, A
he was satisfied it was one of the most important
subjeds which could occupy their attention. (A hod
era of •fdjoitrx ! Adpirrn !) He w=ed the import'
' ante of the question, and considered it would be
beneath the dignity of the House Trot t° give it the
most faitr,aft itul be adjournedl,and to this
candid diseustooduE: he therefore
moved
The CHANCELLOR of the 2 QUER
acknowledged the importance of the subject t but of
could possibly be then decided. it would be most
setisfadoor. However, as he peteeived that several
Gentlemen wished to express their sentiments nom',
the question, he had no objedion tp *damsel the
debate.
After a short conversation across the Table tau
tive to adjourning till Wedoesday, the Speaker ph:
the question, and the debate was adjourned till tho
da r.
The other Orters of the Dar were then disposed
of, and at THR h.E O'CLOCK this Morning the
House adjourned.
_o_.-1

- - - • --
Tti usr Lama. Tha Zoysia., by
of Their hdepesties. The Wheel d Fogtafte aids TM A'.
tainist.—Cones Gikepee. This Ittpeatio, TbS Sebes' In
R4orm. Aar which, 13areah Dom& with etildt
lid
:nests, bean for.the henefisol Mr. Menden. •
'STOCKS --Yesterday. 3 per Cent ltedue;d,
Cent. Chattobl, Mri 303-..Chaniarn.

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