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1

to give the House an outline of the plan he intended to submit,
which might, however, be subject to subsequent alteration. In
this plan, the task was simplified to him by a recurrence to prece-
dent that precedent was to be found in the establishment of the
Presbyterians in Ireland. A direct salary was first paid to the
Clergy of that body in the reign of James I. They subsluently
received, under a new regulation, the regism donum in Ll 9, in
the reign of George I, and the last arrangement had been
made respecting them in 1803, by. Lord Castlereagh, which
was the one he would allude to principally in the motion that
he should recommend. The number of parish priests in Ire-
land were 934, or to take them in round numbers, 1,000.
Besides these, there were curates. who were at present
very scantily and insufficiently provided for. As in the case
of the Presbyterians, according to the last arrangement.- he would
propose to divide the clergy into three classes : for the first class he
would propose to take one-tenth, or two hundred, at 2061. a-year ;
for the second four-tenths, or eight hundred, 1201. a-year; and for
the third class, or one thousand, 601. a-year. This would require
an annual sum of 196,0001. As to the provision for the Roman
Catholic clergy, considering the station they had to fulfil, the ob-
vious demands upon them, and the charities they were called upon
to supply, it would not be an unreasonable provision to give the
four Archbishops 1,500 L a-year, for the twenty-two Bishops 1.0001.
a-year, and for twenty-six Deans 3001. per annum. This would
be a sum tour, of 35,000 L, being altogether a sum not exceeding
231,0001. This was, no doubt, • considerable sum, but not larger
than was suited to the purposes for which it was required, or than
would be repaid to the State by the advantages it would derive
nom such a provision. It would entitle Protestant rulers to address
the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland in a different tone from that
in which they were entitled to address them now, and to say to
them—" We supply you from our own stores, and we do not ask for
an unfair return in asking you to exercise your influence as Chris-
tians, and for the benefit of the country. We possess a power
which it would be vain in you to attack, for we possess means to
defend it, and we are determined to do so. (Hear hear.) But
you in your turn possess a power, which, as we alter the mode
of government adopted by our forefathers, we expect you will
turn to promote the mutual advantages of all classes of your coun-
trymen ; and as the boon is given with a grace and spirit, you will
be disposed to turn it to the promotion of that charity which is the
first duty of religion, and the spirit and the object in which, and
for which It was established on earth." (Hear, hear.) Any effort
to disturb that tranquillity, whisis it is their interest as well as
duty to encourage and establish, must only terminate in common
ruin. The measure was one that would bind the Roman Catholic
Clergy more closely to the State, and whatever was the charge to
the revenue, would be amply repaid by a diminished army list.
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord concluded by moving, that it is
expedient that provision by law should be made for the main-
tenance of the secular Roman Catholic Clergy, discharging reli-
gious functions in Ireland.
Colonel BAGWELL, in supporting the present motion, ex-
pressed the respect in which he held the clergy. of the Established
Church of this country for their learning and piety ; but, highly as
they merited attention, their remonstrances ought not, in his opi-
nion, to prevent the House from adopting a measure essential to the
peace of Ireland and the honour and concord of both nations. lie
had no admiration for the Roman Catholic religion. but it was im-
proper, he thought, to impute idolatry to a Christian sect, the more
so as the laws which were formerly passed against the Roman
Catholics were not poured against the faith of the Roman Catholics,
but against the practices of the Roman Catholics in this country at
a particular period. He would be lenient to the errors of the Roman
Catholics, as he hoped that others would be to his own. As to
this measure, he supported it on its own merits, and because It
would render the power and influence of the Roman Catholic clergy
serviceable to the State. The other measure, relative to the elec-
tive franchise, he also supported on separate grounds, because he
thought the present system of elective franchise in Ireland was bad,
and required revision ; but he supported them both on separate
grounds, and distinct from the Roman Catholic Question, which he
supported as a measure of substantial justice, essential to the pros-
perity of Ireland. and to the safety of this great empire.
Mr. L. FOSTER was desirous of early making his grateful ac-
knowledgments to the Noble Lord who Introduced this question,
fur the very courteous terms in which he did him the honour to
allude to the opinions which he entertained on this subject. He
could assure the Noble Lord, that he was not one of those who had
ever said or thought that an irresistible barrier presented itself to
conciliate the Roman Catholics of Ireland ; least of all was he un-
willing to shut out the aristocracy of the members of that persua-
sion from a participation of the advantages and blessings of the
Constitution. He was acquainted with many members of the Ro.
man Catholic body, and with that portion which would be most
likely to obtain immediate advantage by the present question being
carried ; and be would in fairness add that some of them, if ad.
mitted into that Assembly. would be a valuable accession ; but his
objections were grounded principally on the power of the Roman
Catholic Church, which would remain, after this question were car-
ried, not diminished, but increased. If in this country the power
of the church was not felt to be, as it was in all countries, very
strong, shy was it found necessary to establish what was under-
stood by the term alliance between Church and State, or what
was, more properly speaking, a dependence of the church on the
civil power ? As to the *do, which had been proposed formerly, in
the shape in which it was proposed he regarded it as an idle bauble,
not worth the acceptance on the part of Government, nor of refusal
no the part of the Roman Catholics. It did not propose to give
the power of n0m...118 Bishops to the King of this country,
which it was reasonable the King should possess, as it was
once possessed by all the Sovereigns on the Continent where
the established religion was not Roman Catholic. The Sere.
reigns of the Continent were more absolute than the King
of this country, and therefore the right of appointment by them
might be viewed with more jealousy than if in the King of Log-
land, who was more limited In power, and whose religion was not
so distant and removed as other religions of the Continent from the
Roman Catholic Faith. The Roman Catholics objected to give this
Mpower of nomination to the King, as they could not trust to future
inisters, bitt it might as well be said to them that Ministers
could not trust future Bishops. They even were reluctant to yield
the power to Government of translating Bishops after appointment
from one see to /mottle-, and he begged to remind the Noble Lord
that the opinions which lie gave formerly, favourable to a
stipend for the clergy, was only dependent on the regulation
of the appointment of Bishops in the manner which he had
deemed • necessary security. That these were the sentiments
he then entertained would be found on reference to another part of
the speech to which the Noble Lord did him the honour to allude.
he'l stipend now proposed was not accompanied with such a condi-
tion and inconsistency ; he could not be called upon to support it.
Besides, this stipend was proposed to be given in addition to the in.
come which the Roman Catholic Clergy now possessed, for no se-
curity was required from them in consideration of this stipend, and
they might continue to receive their present income, together with
the provision now proposed for them. Although he did not take
up impressions respecting the Roman Catholic Clergy from the
evidence before the Committee, as strongly favourable to that body
as other Members, yet he considered it fair to Prate, that thirteen
years ago he was of opinion that the tithes of the Established Church
were within the scope of their objects--he was no longer of that opi-
nion. (Hear). The Roman Catholic Church consider every other
church as a nuisance, and every other religion as • usurpation. Heap.
pealed to history, which justified the character he had given. If Ca-
tholic Emancipation were granted, the interest of the Catholics may
not prove to be so trifling as was generally imagined. However
Members coming in on the Catholic interest may differ on subjects
unconnected with that interest, they would probably be unanimous
on questions in which the Catholics were peculiarly interested. For
illustration, he would allude to • party which already existed in
that House, a compact--a wealthy and an influential party :he
meant the West India party. Seldom, on general questions,
were these gentlemen untied in opinion, but when any thing was
brought forward touching the West India interest, there could nut
be • mure compact phalanx. It was not necessary that the ques-
tion agitated should relate directly to Jamaica. Though it should
relate to the coffee of Mocha, the cotton of India, the brandy of
France, or the spirits of Holland,—if it concerned even so remotely
the West India interest, all were found energetic and unanimous.
In the same way, he apprehended that if the Catholics had a party
in that House, however the individuals composing that party may
differ on ordinary topics, they would be found zealous and united
in promoting the cause of Catholicism. It was a material defect in
the Noble Lord's plan, that lie had not introduced any stipulation.
If the power of appointing the heads of the clergy was conferred
on the Government, in his (Mr. L. Foster's) opinion, the prayer of
the Catholics may be conceded not only with safety, but with benefit
to the country. If such a stipulation had been made, he should
feel the greatest satisfaction in supporting the Catholic Claims. Alt
so the stipend to the Catholic chew. if it -woe Irrented at-ill, he
thought rt shootd te granted on the principle of as alleviation to
the people, and not as a remuneration to the Catholic Clergy from
a Protestant State. He did not see bow a Protestant State could,
conscientiously or consistently, supply pecuniary means for extending
the Roman Catholic religion, and remunerating the professors of
the Catholic. Creed.

Mr. 111.'311.: thought it folly to refuse an adequate remuneration
to any officer of the State. lie bad never refused a just retnunera.
lion to a public officer (hear) ; but he thought it right that the
State should receive a just return lot the remuneration. lie was
-one of those who considered the difference of religious opinion in
• State as a very great misfortune. It was impossible, however,
that coercion or compulsion could reconcile conflicting opinions,
and it was satisfactory to know, that persons of religious sects.
Jews and Christians, may live together peacefully and as good
subjects, and may copy their conscientious differences of
opinion. When any one class, however, was admitted to pecu-
liar privileges, it tended more titan any other thing to create
disunion and division. In this point of view he anxiously
desired that the claims of the Catholics may be conceded. his
(Mr. liume's) objection to the Noble Lard's motion was, that it
contemplated injustice to the Protestant Dissenters. It gave the
Catholics an advantage from which other sects, dissenting from the
Established Church, were excluded. The proposition was of
had( exclusive, as it bestowed a boon to the Catholics at the ex-
pense of the Protestant Dissenters. In his opinion all classes of
religious teachers ought to be paid by the ;state. France, Prussia,
and many of the Continental 'State', acted on this principle. lie
I doubted bow fir the benefits anticipated by the Noble Lord would
be produced by the proposed arrangement ; but admitting all
these benefits as certain, he would be unwilling to concede to the
motion, unless it embraced all classes of Dissenters. As to the
connection which It is said would be produced betwee, the Catholic
priests and Government, he doubted whether it would produce any
benelit, and .or essed be feared the additional influence it
give to the Gove.r.ment. The Noble Lord hate stated whether
the stipend was to be granted with any stipulation, or from
what fund it stiould be paid. If it were granted without
stipulation, it ',mild clearly add to that influence which so *any
deprecated. The house was not at present possessed of suSchst

THE BRITISH 'PRESS.

information to enable It tsaaakeauch a serious innovation as wits
proposed. It was no organism to state that the Protestant Dis-
senters in Ireland had an Milmance from Government. This was
no precedent. The Protestant Dinneetilli l• Ireland amounted to
between eight. and nine bombed annanadi There were
between two and three hundred and Hey were allowed
by Government no more than 13, . Such a paltry sum haying
been rented to the Political Dissenters, was no reason why the
sum of 2.50,0001. should be given to the Catholics. It had been I
said that we owe nothing to the Dissenters, but in his opi-
nion we owe as much to the Dissenters as we do to the Catholics,
in proportion to their relative rumbero. In cooctusion, he
thought the House should appoint a Committee to inquire into the
subject, as they hod not at present sufficient information. He
should therefore move as an amendment, that a Select Committee
be appointed, to consider whether it is expedient for Government to
grant an annual stipend to the Boman Catholic Priests, and all
Protestant Dissenting Clergymen ; and also to consider the amount
of the stipend which should be granted to the Clergy of each par-
ticular sect, and the fund from which such sum should be drawn.
Illr. W. BANKES thought the Noble Lord's motion Involved
an unreasonable proposition, and one which did not meet the
wishes o'lo9 party. It appeared from the examinations before the
Committee, that the Catholic Priests would rather do without the
I stipend, and that the laity would not consider it as a boon ; there-
fore the Catholic Clergy and Laity were both opposed to it. The
Noble Lord had stated, as one of the benefits to be derived from this
arrangement, that the people would be separated from the clergy,
which would diminish the influence of the latter. There was no ne.
cessety for such a consequence ; for if the Catholic Relief Bill
passed, the adeocatea of that measure held, that the spirit of incur-
rection would exist no longer in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) He con-
sidered that the argument of the Honourable Gentleman opposite
(Mr. Hume) was entitled to much consideration. He agreed with
that Honourable Gentleman, that it was not a pleasant thing for the
Dissenters to see a large class, standing in the same relation to the
Established Church, assuming a new ground, whilst they were left
in their old station. it would be a great grievance for the Dissea.
ten to be obliged to pay the Catholic Priesthood ; it would oblige
them to support no lees than three systems of religion. The Pro.
testant would have to pay. to bis own Clergy and the Catholic
Clergy ; the Catholic would have to pay his owu and the Clergy of
the Established Church ; but the Dissenter would have to pay the
Clergy of the Established Church, the Roman Catholic Clergy,
and his own Clergy too. If the Dissenters should press those ob-
jections, he felt that the argument would be all on their side. In.
dee all the circumstances, if the proposition of the Noble Lord was
carried into operation, he could scarcely consider that the Esteb-
limbed Church existed as an Established Church, and be should
therefore call upon the Honourable Gentlemen agreeing with him
to express their decided negative on the measure.
Mr. T. P. COUItTENA I' apologised for addressing the lioese,
and hoped that the same indulgence would be extended to him
that he might hope for If he were a new Member. He wished,'
while he had a hearing, to express his dissent from some of those
with wh,m he was heretofore in the habit of acting, in doing whieh
he would go no further into the general question of Catholic
Claims than was necessary fora due understanding of the present
measure. For his own part he never saw any objection to these
claims that did nut apply with equal force to the case of all Pro-
testant D:esenters. In the proposition then before the lionee, they
were called upon not only to vote for the general question of Email.
maiden, but also that which went to make a provision for the
Clergy of the Roman Catholic Church. In their doctrines, that
(:hurch was not more repugnant to the principles of the Church of
England, than were the received and acknowledged doctrines of
many classes of Protestant Dissenters. Nay, on the contrary, he
saw more affinity between the Roman Catholics and die Estab-
lished Church, and less danger to be apprehended from the latter
than from the Dissenters. tie did not believe that the Roman
Catholics would wish to subvert the Church of England, with any
other view than that of substituting their own. (Laughter.) The
Dissenters, he contended, would destroy it even without a similar
view. He would ask, was the danger removed or brought nearer
by the payment of the Roman Catholic Clergy ? When their
religion ceased to be proscribed, would not the Roman Catholic
Clergy entertain reasonable and natural expectations of seeing their
own religion established. For his own individual part he felt the
strong conviction, that the Clergy of the Roman Catholic Church
might be brought into much closer connection with the Church of
England than they had hitherto been. He was afraid that what
he was going to say might subject him to reprehension, but he
could not help declaring, that he thought the Church of England
required too great a minuteness of conformity, and he was then
convinced that the time had arrived when the Articles of the Church
of England ought to be revised. (Hear, hear.) If any one would
take the 1; ruble to read the thirty-nine Articles. (A laugh.) He
would rather close his observations than say any thing which would
make this solemn matter a subject of ridicule. (Cries of "Go
on.") He then proceeded to notice some alterations which from
time to time had been made in these articles, and observed, that
being matters merely speculative, no two persons could be found to
agree in them. To this he would only add, that being a supporter
of the Catholic question generally, he would feel it his duty to vote
against the present measure.
Lord G. CAVENDISH thought a maintenance ought to be pro-
vided for the pastors of six millions of souls, and he trusted that
making provision for this would have the effect of doing away the
separate condition of the Roman Catholics as a body, and mixing
them with the other classes of society. The state of ignorance in
which they were—he would not say barbarism—was, he thought,
owing to the situation in which their Clergy stood. What could
be expected front a people who received no religious education ?
The crowd of criminals tried at the Old Bailey was mainly to be
ascribed to the want of religious education.
Mr. Secretary PEEL was sure that every one would admit that
the present was a question perfectly distinct from the general object
contemplated by the Roman Catholic Relief Bill. It may or ma
not be wise and expedient to remove the disabilities under which
Roman Catholics at present labour, and lie, in coming to the
consideration of the present measure, would not say a word 'illicit
might not consistently be uttered by the most strenuous supporter
of the Bill introduced by the Honourable Baronet, the Member
for Westminster. No clear understanding could confound two
questions so entirely distinct. The concession of the Roman Ca.
tholic Claims was one thing, and it was quite a distinct question to
determine whether the State should foster and propagate a system
of doctrines and discipline which the members of the Established
Church conceived to be erroneous, and which they solemnly ab-
jured and protested against. It was exceedingly unfortunate that
the present measure should have been coupled with the general
question of concession to the Roman Catholics. Ile could not un.
derstand how those two questions came to be connected together. He
was unable to discover why any one thought it necessary to
discuss the intended provision for the Roman Catholic clergy just
at the present moment Suppose the whole question of Emancipa-
tion, as it was called, completely and finally. settled ; suppose full
and complete concession made to the Roman Catholics oh all that
they demanded, during the present Session, why not then in the
course of the next Session bring forward this Bill, and at that time
let the measure take its fate, without reference to any other enact.
went whatever? He again would repeat his question, why was the
measure brought forward at present It was a question on which
matters of the utmost moment and importance most closely de-
pended. It was proposed by the Noble herd (Lord F. L. Gower)
that the house should coax to a vote which would determine that a
provision should be made for the secular clergy of the Roman
Catholic persuasion. %Vas the House in that state of information
on the subject whiclt would enable it to come to a round and judi-
cious vote on such a question ? Were Hon. blembers prepared to
affirm that they were sufficiently acquainted with the subject to say
whether or nut the proposed provision should be made ? IVere
they prepared to say that England should depart hem the example
set by other States not so deeply pledged to the support of the
Protestant religion—that of refusing to establish a church independ_
eat of, and unconnected with, the Government of the country ? In
other countries, the fact of a Roman Catholic Bishop enjoying any
temporalities, affiads a ground tar the interference of Government
in the appointment of such Bishops. Here the Noble Lord pro.
poems to confer temporalities upon the Irish Roman Catholic
Bishop, but refuses to allow that just interference with their
appointment which naturally ought, and which every where else
does, become consequent upon any temporalities being conferred.
Here a provision was to lie made for the Irith secular clergy be-
longing to the Church of Rome, rendering them perfectly indepen-
dent of the Crown, but yet deriving pecuniary provision from the
treasury of the State. It was, he maintained, perfectly inconsistent
with the principles of the British Constitution, that a sum of
258,000 L should be annually expended train the public purse with.
out any interference on the part of the Crown. Ile trussed, ben.
ever, that is ambiug this observation he would not be aecused of
seeking to extend the patronage of the Crown. As matters stood,
and with the perfect absence of all information on the subject, he
contended that the House was not in a condition to decide such a
question. A provision for the Roman Catholic clergy was to be
made without connecting diem with the Government in any man-
ner analogous to the connexion which subsists with the Church of
England, or even the Church of Scotland—a connexion with the
Church of Scotland did exist. Now the measure of the Noble
lord went the length of granting temporalities without establishing
connexion—siving stipends, sod yet restating any attempt to esta-
blish a connexion with the governmeut of the country. Apart from
all conslderatioes of a theological nature, he could conceive ne Mea-
sure of more importance ; yet they were called upon to decide It
without being in possession of any thing approaching to the recital.
site information. It had been argued, that a precedent for this was
to be found in the provision made for the Preshyterian ministers.
On this important subject there was the evidence of Doctor Cooke,
the Moderator of the Synod of Ulster. This evidence has not been
minted--it is not in the hands of Members, and yet the Mute Is
called on to take as a precedent the circumstances which that evi-
dence discloses. He intended on that occasion to have quoted from
that evidence; and when he came to inquire for it, the answer he
received was, that the evidence had not been printed. If it had
been printed, he would have shown from it that the Presbyterians
of the north of Ireland, the body of Dissenters from whore circum-
stances the precedent was to be drawn, were willing to admit all
the doctrines of the Church of England, and only differed front it
in the matter of diecipline, lie cot dimity concurred with the Hon.
Member (Mr. Courieray,) that in order to agree to this provision
it was necessary to effect an alteration in the 'Third -nice Articles
of the Church of England. Thom parts by which persons sub-
scribing to them protest against the errors of Popery, must neces-
sarily be expunged. flow otherwise can those who, from entering
at our universities, or from any cause, are called upon to subscribe
to these articles, be expected to contribute their share of 2;r0.000l.
a year as provision for the Irish Roman Catholic clergy ? With
such views of the subject he felt it his they to call on the House
not to be too precipitate in coming to a decision. They were refer-
red to the case of Alaynooth College as VI. .! in Feint; but to that he
would reply, that at the time that institution was established it
might have been an object, and it certainly was an object of policy

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to establish a domestic system of education, so as to avoid the dis-
advantages then considered to be concomitant upon the clergy of the
Irish Church being educated abroad. This then was obviously
differenttfrom a grant of 250,0001. a year to foster and propagate a
faith which the members of the Established Church deemed erro.
neous. fie would ask the House, was it not most material that
they should be in possession of something like precise and definite
information on the subject regarding which they were thus called
on to legislate? lie was informed, that there were forty-two Domi-
nican houses in Ireland. Thes should be ascertained, as also the
numbers in each, together with various other information of a
similar character not yet before the House. The present measure
proposed to tnake provision for the secular clergy, trot for the regu-
lar. Might it not then have the effect of withdrawing from the
former the confidence of the people, thus diminishing its ranks, and
proportionally augmenting the numbers of the latter? The parochial
clergy receiving the stipend might possibly lose their influence.
He would not, however, have it understood that he went the length
of saying that no arrangement could be n-a te. On the co or C he
was of opinion that probably a measure might hereafter be intro-
duced that would remove all jealousies. But the House, he re-
peated, shook" have full and complete information on the
subject; and he ascertained that neither class of the clergy
was increastd or diminished by it—that in short the measure
should not operate exclusively for the secular clergy without
any notice of the regular clergy. Further, no satisfactory or
final arrangement, he was persuaded, could be come to on the
subject without some communication with the See of Rome, for the
oath of the Roman Catholic Bishop must, he thought, be altered
to meet the emergency. This, though it could not be done with.
nut authority from the See of Rome, was nevertheless not to be
looked upon as impracticable. When Doctors Murray and Doyle
were examined betime the Irish Committee, he learned from them
that although they had themselves no authority to alter the oath
from its present form, yet that by permission of the Pole—a permis.
*ion which they conceived not impossible to be obtained—the oath
might be altered to suit the necessity of the case; but to effect this.
communication must be had with Rome, and therefore, in the present
state of the business, they could come to nothing like a just conclu-
sion. At present the Pope has the actual appointment of the
Irish Roman Catholic Bishops. He might appoint whomsoever he
pleased. He might appoint a foreigner ; and was this. Bill to
pass without any arrangement, without a security ? The inex-
pediency of such a course was not to be denied. Arrangement
and stipend should go tostrier ; they should proceed pars pussty
lie thought it peculiarly unfortunate that this question should be
mixed up with that great one to which he had before alluded, be.
cause he thought there was a most essential difference between
them, and that the unpopularity of the other measure would be
considerably increased by it. After this House should have con-
sented to provide for the support of the Roman Catholic Clergy,
he would say that the clainis of the Protestant Dissenters would be
very different indeed to what they are at present. He did not mean
to deny that the House would not be able to find some peculiar
grounds for inducing them to entertain the claims now made on
behalf of the Catholic Clergy ; but notwithstanding what might
be urged to countenance the present measure, he would contend
that its success would materially strengthen the claims of the Dis-
renter. At this moment what was the condition of the Episcopal
Church of Scotland ? They professed the same religion we did
ourselves, observed mans of its farms, and yet there was no
establishment made by the Government for them; if then you
should erect the Catholic Clergy into au established body, to be
provided for by the State, how much greater would be the claims
of the Clergy of Scotland for a regular provision, professing as
'lacy did the same religion with ourselves, and differing possibly
even more than ourselves from die Church of Rome. It appeared
to him that no measure was more likely to excite jealnasy towards
the other question pending before the House than that now pro.
posed, and of mixing up with the consideration of the right and
policy of Emancipation the most distinct and separate measure of
making provision for the Catholic Clergy. He conceived the pro-
position lobe one altogether premature, and if the 'louse should act so
precipitately as thus to gives qualified establishment totheCetholic
church, they wouldbe doing win direct contravention of the principles
of the Revolution in 1688. The object and design of that Revolution
was to unite the members of the Church of England and the Pro.
testant Dissenters together, and the laws passed to that effect
were made expressly to conciliate the scruples of tender consciences,
who could not even go so far as the members of the Established
Church itself in their conformity to the Roman Catholic Religion:
he therefore entreated the House not to precipitate the present mea-
sure, which would inevitably tend to excite very great jealousy
towards the great leading question itself. He did not intend to
ho into any details, as he felt the House to be destitute of sufficient
tr.fonnation on which to form a correct judgment. He had not,
however, said one word which would imply that he had any objection
to the Dill now proposed to be introduced, provided it should he in-
cidental to the great measure of Emancipation. But as the House
bad not yet determined to adopt the latter measure. he did not con-
ceive there could be any cogent ground for contending that the one
embraced by the Resolution now offered to their consideration
should be adopted. It was not at all necessary to the Bill of the Hon.
Baronet, nor had it, in his opinion, the least connection with it ;
and he must say, that if the House were prepared to agree to the
Resolution, they would very soon have reason to repent of thei
precipitation.
Mr. C. W. W. WVNN considered that this question was inse-
parably connected with the other then before the House. He felt
indeed that the one might pass without the other; but one of the
great recommendations of the Catholic Question with him was,
that on its being effected it would necessarily lead to a measure oil
this kind. Many gentlemen who at present opposed Emancipation,
did so because they wished to have a previous declaration of the
House that a measure of this kind should be adopted. In order
therefore to gain even one additional vote to that great question, he
would most readily consent to give precedence to the Bill proposed
by the Noble Lord's resolution. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel)
had asked why this question should be coupled with that of''
Catholic Emarcipation, and what necessary connection there existed
between the two. Ile begged to state that in that House, upwards
of twenty years ago, when first the Catholic question was brought
forward, belied heard Mr. Pitt say that this, and this only, was
the measure necessary to ensure the final success of that question.
He always maintained the expediency of Catholic Emancipation
being accompanied wit securities, but not such securities as con-
eisted in oaths or protests. The only safe bond that could be
effected was through the medium of the Catholic Clergy, whose
influence was so great over the minds of the people, by making
them form a connecting link between the Government and the
people, and a provision of the kind now proposed was deemed to
be the only means by which such a thing could be accomplished.
And might there not be, and were there not, political reasons that
those who were to instruct the people, should have • personal in.
tercet in the support of the Government? During the twenty
years that this question had been discussed, there had been no
man who would argue that the simple passing of the Act of
Emancipation would be sufficient. It was never intended
that this measure should have been parsed alone; on the con-
trary, it was always proposed to be followed up by other measures.
It had been objected that although the proposed Bill was to make
a provision for the Roman Catholic Bishops, yet there was no power
given to the Government to overlook their appointment. His an-
swer was, that it was intended to introduce a clause in the Bill to
obviate this objection. This. however, was matter of detail, and
would therefore he better discussed at a future stage of the measure.
But the main objection was, that whiles provision was thus to be
made for the Catholic Clergy, there was nothing proposed to be
done for the Protestant Dissenters. It had been asked, why net
at the same time bring forward a question for a provision fur the
Protestant Dissenters ? Ills opinion upon this point was that the
present was not the time for the discussion of such a question.
(Hear, hear.) Ile thought the state of Ireland required that the
Clergy of the Catholics should be connected with thehtate. Their in-
fluence over the people was greater than that of the Dissenters over
their members, and the danger to be apprehended was much Fester
from the Catholics than any other religious body. Besides he
thought that those from whom we had formerly taken the property of
the church ought to be provided for rather than those who had
separated themselves from us. With respect to the dispositions of
the people of Ireland in reference to the elective franchise, lie
would observe that there heel not been an instance of •eingle county
throughout that country having been called together to express
the opinion upon the subject. There had 'been sufficient time for
the purpose had any feeling existed ; the abserce therefore of any
such meetings was to him the strongest argument of theirdiepost-
tion to rely with confidence on the wisdom of Parliament. He was
glad to find that no Gentleman had objected to the measure no undo
discussion on the ground of economy. With see great an object be-
fore them as that of tranquillizing Ireland, he thought the sum of
250,0006 a year a very trifling one indeed. If the peace of that
country could be secured at such a price, it would be a very street
achievement, and a much larger sum to accomplish it would be
well laid out.

Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) could say, from the very best
authority, and from intimate communications with almost all the
Roman Catholic Priests and Bishops in Ireland, that they had all
unanimously said they had rather be without a provision tram the
Government than have it. (Hear, hear, hear.) With one voice
they had requested that they might not be called upon to"
be grateful to this country for any grant to them. Every
Catholic Priest supplicated his blends to abstain from making
any motion for • grant to them 'by Parliament. They
preferred receiving their stipends ;from their own people.
Phe supporters of Emancipation had been called upon to answer
how this grain would have the effect of quieting Ireland P He
would not answer the question; it was not the measure of the
Roman Catholics. He had himself said, if there should be a pro-
vision made for the Catholic Clergy it would content him; but
that would be the Aet of this House, and not of the Catholics.
It was therefore for those who tied required this provision to
show how this would operate upon the Catholics. He believed
that if the Prierithoad were provided for by the State they would
lose a part of the influence they at present possessed over the
Catholic laity ; and what they would receive voluntarily from them
would exceed the stipends to be paid to them from the State. But
if he asked for this provision, he did it in order to take from the
Church of England • very great reproach. He wished to enable
the Established Church to be able to reply to the complaints that
were now made by the Catholics, at being compelled to support an
Ests'olisliment to which they did Dot belong. He was anxious that
they should have the power to answer them, in termaof recompense,
"It you are assessed for the repairs of a church which is of no use to
you, and where you have no vote, why we are assessed for a sum to
provide for your priests." But they might ask us, by what right
can you bold back this 230,000/. a yew, when you have from us
many milliona ? The Honourable Gentleman concluded by ex-
pressing kis grateful thanks to the Noble Lord for bringing forward
this measure, and apologised to the House for the time he had oet.u.
pied in stating his reasons fur giving it his cordial support.
Mr. S. RICE said, that his reason for supporting the present
quation depended upon two principles ; the first was, that the Ca-