The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1825-04-27 00:00:00

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41

TH E BRITISH PR ESS.

sure before the !tense. There were a number of other topics that
were stroqg in the mind ; but if his strength would permit him to
proceed, he should not feel himself justified in doing so, atter the
large draughts he had made on the Indulgence of the House. (The
Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman sat down, amidst loud
cheers from both sides of the I louse.)
Mr. L. FOSTER explained.
When Mr. Foster had taken his scat, the calls for Mr. Peel were
universal, and continued for some time • at last,
=Mr. BANKES rose from under the ;allery, and observed, that
unwilling as he was to trespass on the attention of the Howie, he
could not avoid referring to the charge brought against him by the
Right Hoooutable and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Plunkett.) lie
had never said that he would forfeit his head or estate rather
than support this measure ; but this he had said, and would re.
peat, that taking away the elective franchise from so many persoas
was prima facia a brush measure, and he thought so far from
being acceptable to the public mind in Ireland, it would lead to I
discontent ; it was in his opinion setting • bad example to the free.
holders of this county, and with this impression he would move
that the Bill be read a second time that day six months.
After the amendment had been put by the Speaker,
9Z3Ir. Secretary PEEL rose and observed, that it was his intention
strictly to confine himself to the question before the House, without
reference to the Citholic Bill, and much less without reference to
the arguments adduced by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman oppo.
site (Mr. Brougham). His Right Hon. and Learned Friend (3lr.
Plunkett) had said, that if he thought the present measure of an
injurious tendency he would vote for it, provided that it was likely
to forward the great measure. He (Mr. Peel) did not question the
propriety of that course ; but if he liked the measure he woold not
oppose it, even if it were likely to produce the general Bill. He
looked at this question abstractedly and upon its own merits, and
that he thought the true way to view it. His Right Honourable
and Learned Friend had referred to opinions that he (Mr. Peel)
stated in 1817. He was not. at the time that they were alluded to,
aware exactly of their import ; but he was now surprised to
find, that what he had uttered so long since should so exactly
and in every particular agree with his present opinions. Ile had
said then that the Bill of 1703 neither possessed the advantages nor
the evils that its supporters and opponents attributed to it, and those
opinions he still entertained. He agreed with Mr. Burke that
franchise wasinot office ; but as an honest man he must say, that
the franchise, as exercised by the Catholics, was subject to great
mischief. The opinions he stated in 1817 lie now repeated, and
he was prepared to consider any measure that would put a stop to
tictitious freeholds and prevent perjury regarding reel ones. if this
Bill were passed he would not conclude that the doing so was im-
politic and unwise ; but he should think that they were acting very
precipitately. (Hear, hear.) He should be as ready as any man to
find out a remedy for the evils that afflicted Ireland, but he should
with great reluctance support any alteration in the elective franchise
in Ireland. He had objected to increase the elective franchise in
Scotland, and should also object to decrease it in Ireland ; and he
did so upon the great principle, that he did not like to interfere with
that question. Notwithstanding the eloquent speech of his Right
Honourable and beamedirriend he was not convinced by it.
If they looked to the Registers which contained the returns of the
freeholders they would be struck with the great change they were
about to make. In Tyrone. since 1809, there had been registered
13,000 forty-shilling freeholders, and for the same period they
would observe that there were only 273 20/. freeholders. ;Now this,
he must say, was a difference that made him pause in such a
measure as the present. Ile wanted farther inquiries to be made
on various subjects; for example, on the proposition of 101. free-
holders that were comprehended in that enumeration. lle wanted
to know the effect of this measure. His Hon. Friend had, in his
statement, told them that he would not raise the qualification from
forty.shillings to five-pounds, because it would tend to increase
the present evils. Now it appeared to him (Mr. Peel) that if
the effect of disfranchisement was to increase the evil, it was
highly necessary to make further inquiries. His Honourable
Friend wished to assimilate the rates of Ireland to those of Dig-
land, but the Bill now proposed would have no such effect. The
only effect would be to make those men who now perjured them-
selves as 40s. freeholders do it as 101. What security was there
provided against tha: being the case ? Hi* Honourable Friend
had alluded to a schedule in which was the oa.h which it was pro-
posed should be taker, to prevent this imposition ; but when he
(Mr. Peel) looked fcr the s h.dale st oken of, be found there was not
actually such a thirg in existence. This was the only provision
spoken of to prevent perjury, and yet when they came to look the it
it was not to be found. With regard to whether the passing of that
Bill would strengthen the Protestant interest, he was not prepared
to say. It was, however, well known that the landed property was
in the hands of the Protestants, who had, in consequence, great in-
fluence among the 40, freeholders, which this Bill was to disfran-
chise. In the northern counties, where the Protestant interest was
strongest, he found the greatest number of 40s. freeholders, and
this in one of the most flourishing parts of !rebind, and yet it was
said that the existence of 40s. freeholders was the cause of the dis-
tress and misery in which that country was plunged. He would
take the county of Kilkenny as an example : this county had been
the seat of great disturbances, and there were found registered 760
40s. freeholders. That county returned two Roman Catholic Members:
he meant so say Members voting for the Roman Catholic interest.
In Fermanagh two Members were returned, who, on the contrary,
voted for the Pre!efinoteinteseat. ho found 40.. freettoLlem
to fhe amount of 26.900, and that county, as he had before
observed, (returned two Members. who uniformly voted against
concessions to the Catholics. Now, in a comparison of these
counties they found that the one which had the greatest number
of 40a. freeholders was the mast prosperous ; and yet it was &a-
lerted that the 4es. freeholders we-e the cause of the distress. It
appeared that the county that had the greatest number of the 40s.
freeholds had returned Protestant voting Islembers, and yet it was
asserted that this measure was to strengthen the Protestant interest.
All that he asked for was further inquiry. To produce other ex-
amples, there was AVaterford, one of the most disturbed coun-
ties ; there were 7000 freeholders registered, whilst in Antrim there
were 29,700, the greater part Protestants. If they were Roman
Catholics they were content to send to Parliament two Members
who voted for the Protestant interest, but being Protestants, what
equivalent could be given them for the privileges of which they were
deprived. To this it might be answaed, that it would give general
satisfaction, but would it satisfy the disfranchised Protestant, who
certainly had as great a right to protection as the Catholic ? In
eight leousides of Ulster, he was informed, that there were 190,000,
forty-shilling freeholders ;rin short, in 14 counties of the South of
Ireland, there was a far inferior number. He would again beg
them to make further inquiries before they proceeded to pass this
Bill. He should wish them to ascertain whether the population
in the property belonging to the Church was not as dense as on
that of the Protestant landlord, who was supposed to favour it for
the purpose of gaining additional influence at the elections.
Would the present measure form the yeomanry that they wished
to establish there? In could not be formed from a number of 101.
freeholders. They ought to consider whether a great opening
would not be made to form seine noxious influence by the
way of fee simple. What was there to prevent a n.an build-
ing • number of houses, and conveying them in fee simple to
a hundred notices, giving at the same time the right of cut-
ting turf, and thus, by the uncertainty of their tenure, have
them at his mercy at the next election ? There was certainly,
as the Bill then stood, no security against this. This measure,
instead of assimilating the voting of Ireland to that of England,
merely raised the qualification necessary to become a voter. The
Bill did not remedy one of the evils pointed out by Mr. O'Connell
in his evidence before the Committee, relative to the forgery of ficti-
tious !Teeters. Let them look to the preamble of the other Bill, for
this was one merely contingent on it. Now, if thatßill fulfilled
the object mentioned in the preamble of the other Bill, for uniting
the hearts of his Majesty's subjects, Re. he could not see the neces-
sity fur this measure. For they must remember that the present
measure was to take effect under circumstances pet featly new. If, in-
deed, the measure were intended to take effect immediately, it might
be of benefit; but it was not to operate till every man now living
interested in it was dead. Upon the whole, it appeared to
him that they ought not to pass it this Session. There was no
necessity for it. Yet he felt the greatest reluctance to agree
to any measure which had the effect of taking away the
dearest privileges of the subject. But if it was moved
to him that the Bill would redly support the Protestant in-
terest, he might alter his present opinion. Not that his opposition
now precluded a fair discussion of its merits next or any other
Session. Besides his general objection to the Bill, he would farther
remark, that it was full of inconsistencies, and not, in his opinion,
calculated in the slightest degree to answer the expectations of the
framer (Hear, hear.)
Sir H. PARNELL did not think that any farther inquiry was
at all necessary ; for the House must be perfectly satisfied thist the
greatest evils resulted from the present system in Ireland. The
manner in which the elections were conducted would bear him out
in this assertion. Ile need only refer the House to the evidence of
the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Tuam for their satisfaction, and
if that was not considered sufficient, he should produce his own.
There was no county in Ireland where the traffic in voters was more
extensively carried on. There had been meetings itt several coun-
ties of Ireland since this Bill had been promulgated, and not one
of them had expressed any disapprobation of it.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD hoped that the Bill would be read a
second time, for it was imposeible for any body Who bad attended
to the evidence brought before the Committee, but must acknow-
ledge that some measure of reform was necessary. For his part,
he would prefer even a higher rate of qualification than that pro-
posed by the Bill. There were other subjects connected with the
moral effects likely to result from the intended measure—the In.
crease of population and the subdivision °Blended property—which
he would decline entering u at present ; but he would conclude
by hoping, that no sat ul opposition would be given to the
second rending of the Bill.
Mr. BUTLER CLARKE supported the Bill.
Mr. RICHARD MARTIN intended to vote for the Bill,
shough he was fully aware in doing so be did not consult his own
interest in the slightest degree. For the sake of securing the success
of the greater measure of Catholic Relief, he was willing to con-
cede this lesser question ; and on that ground alone did he intend
to vote for the present Bill. He did not feel dispo•ed to agree with
Honourable Members who undervalued the character and inde-
pendence of the 404.1 freeholders. (Hear: arid alaugh.) He could re.
late instances to the House of attempts being made to seduce his
(Mr. 3hutin's) freeholders, and prevent them voting for him. His
Honourable Colkague (Mr. Daly) could vouch tins were he in his
place. They had been confined in yards, surrounded with walls
eight or ten sect high ; but notwithstanding had broken loose and
voted for him. (A laugh.) After this a Captain of a revenue
cruiser, by the bye, had been employed to carry them away to vote
for a violent Whig, against himself, who could not be considered
other than • supporter of Government. (Hear, and a laugh.)
Mr. BROWNLOW had never met with any individual out of
doors—he did not mean to speak of Members of that Howe—who
objected to the prceen: Bill, and had not been ir.fluenced in his

opposition by motives of a private natur:. With retard to the
way in which 40ae4reebolders VIP made in Ireland, he would re-
late one inteance to the Home. A gentleman in a northern county
was desirous of not servjng the °Rice. of Sheriff, but be* potin
nomination, and appointed by the Sem tary of State,lle desired, as
the Government had made him a Sheriff, be would make himself a
Member of Parliament. He accoedingly relit his lauded estate
into 2,600 micute and baggily was inseparable from
those subdivisions. A landholder, after acting in this manner,
could say, I'll walk Into Parliament for an independent northern
county, and ask no man's permission. If be should repeat to the
House that those unfortuna:e freeholders raight be sten going along
the roads before the driver without a rag to their backs or a shoe to
their feet, what would be their opinion? If be should tell them in
what manner preparation was made for the reception of these mi.
seeable people by the expulsion of what be might call kindred
cattle—for the brutes were scarcely more degraded- mod
how they were drilled into an acquaintance with the
name of their master's nominee, would they for a mo.
meat oppose the abolition of a system so disgraceful as the elec-
tive francnise in Ireland. (Ilear, hear.) The continuance of such
a system was utterly incompatible with the freedom and purity of
Englishmen.—(Hear.).--There could be no measare more closely
connected with the beat interests of Ireland, and he entreated the
House to adopt the present Bill.—(Ilear).
Mr. HUTCHINSON was sure the Hon. Member for Armagh
(Mr. Brownlee') was the last person in that Howse capable of im-
huting the public conduct of public men to unworthy motives, and
e was extremely glad lie bad guarded his expressions when speak.
lag of the opposers of the present Bill. However, the Honourable
Member had introduced his Bill to-night in ts way quite different
from that which he had adopted on Fnday last. He (Mr. II utch.
inson) could never consent to disfranchise the Irish freeholder, and
deprive the country at one blow of a species of vote without a full
and particular investigation. If the present Bill were to pass, it
would go to the prospective disfranchisement of nine.tenths of the
Irish Lation.—(A considerable degree of impatience and interrup-
tion was manifested in the body or the !louse, of which the Hon.
Member repeatedly complained, and expressed his determination to
proceed.l—lie would never consent to receive emancipation In
exchange for considerations such as the present measure. He felt
surprised that his Honourable Friend near him (Sir F. Burdett)
for whom he felt the most affectionate regard, should maintain a
silence upon this subject, and suffer himself to be dragged into a
messure so much to be deprecated as the present. He (Mr. II.)
would oppose the Bill, even at the risk of hazarding the other mes.
sure, for their endeavours to obtain which his family had made
themselves conspicuous.—(Hear.)—There existed no real security
in the present Bill ; the only security would be found to consist in
their opening their hearts to the Catholics. If they opened the
doorlof the Constitution to their Catholic fellow-countrymen, there
would soon exist no difference between Protestant and Catholic_
It was with reluctance he felt compelled to oppose the Bill of the
Hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Littleton), but he felt it his duty
to do so.

Mr. GOULBURN said, it was not his intention to detain the
House long with the expression of his sentiments. His only reason
for troubling them was, lest if he gave a silent vote upon the pre-
sent measure, his motives might be liable to be misunderstood.
He thought it would be extremely absurd and iejuaicious to con-
sent to accept securities at an indefinite and distant period, as a
counterpoise for immediate and pressing dangers. But those were
the securities held out by the present 1101, in order to induce
them to pass the Catholic Relief Bill. Independent of all this, he
was content to go into the consideration ..f the Bill, on its
own grounds, and on those grounds he would vote against
it--not that he opproved of the existing system of forty-
shilling-freeholders in Ireland, or thought it incapable of im-
provement. No such thing ; but he thought it right, before
they adopted a remedy for an evil, to consider the extent of the evil
and the efficiency of the remedy. In fact, there existed no evidence
to show the extent of the evil, and much of the evidence which bore
upon the subject was not yet before the House. The Hon. Gen-
tleman proceeded to advert to the evidence of General Burke, who
was of opinion that the system of 40s. electors did not increase
the subdivision of farms or lands. Colonel Curry, who had also
been examined, admitted that the freeholders contemplated
their privilege of electors with a degree of pride and satisfaction,
of which he (Mr. Goulburn) thought ft herd to deprive then).
He would not vote for the present measure, because he be.
lieved it trenched on the constitutional privileges of the people.
It was not fir to say that the Irish freeholder cared little for his
rights. It appeared, from the evidence of Colonel Curry, that
he looked on them with a jealous eye, and regarded the preserva-
tion of them as a matter of much importance. The Right lion.
Gentleman then read extracts from the evidence alluded to,
and was proceeding to comment on it, whin he was interrupted
with cries of " Question." lie concluded with declaring his de.
termination to oppose the measure.
Lord MILTON agreed with the Hon. Member for Galway
(Mr. Martin) that it might be advisable to forward the present Bill
this stage as connected with another Bill before the House. Ile
agreed that there existed evils, and many, in the system which it
was sought to remedy ; but it was a question how far these evils
may not be cured by the other great measure. (Hear.) He looked
on the mode of qualification as much the cause of evil as the quali-
fication itself; but, above all, he considered the prime cause to be
the mode of registration.. He thought that the mama she estoolep,
too was to be taken into account. There was one consideration which
must be regarded as a most serious one: it was that the whole property
of Ireland had grown into large masses. The effect of this was the crea-
tion of an oligarchy in that country. He could not be supt mod
as being, from interested motives, hostile to that power ;
his interest lay the other way, for he was himself a component part
of it. lie looked on the oligarchy of Ireland as one of the great
curses cf Ireland ; he was aexious, if possible, to throw the power
into the middling classes, if such could be found. Ile was sure that
meet of the 40s. freeholders would feel pleasure In giving up their
votes for the purpose of being placed, as religionists, on the same
footing with other clawless; at the same time he cautioned
the House not to let the ;present Bill out of their power un-
less the other Bill pass the other House first. (Hear.) They
should keep it within the walls of the House until the other Bill
received the Royal assent ;—they should guard against being
tricked. (Hear. hear.)
Mr. GRATTAN thought that if the present Bill passed, the
application of the principle would be endless. (Hear, hear.) Its
effect would be to convert every county into a close borough.
(Hear, hear.) And were to legislate for thirty-two counties on the
evidence of one or two ? If the precedent were once adopted
—if they were in one night to strike off the popular right of the
Irish freeholders, why not make it hereafter a precedent for Eng-
land? (Cries of " Hear, hear.") Its presenteffect would be to de-
prive of their rights 209,000 freeholders. (Hear, (hear.) Ifs
thought some remedy might be found for the existing evils, with.
out proceeding to such monstrous extremities. A very advisable
measure would he to raise the stamp duties on leases ; if it were
raised to a pound on each lease, many who now think nothing of
making 2,000 freeholders, would then consider a good deal before
they paid so many pounds for leases.
Sir F. BURDETT commenced with passing a very high eulo-
gium on the Right lion. the Attorney-General for Ireland. Ile
went on to say, that it was a moat mistaken view of the case to call
the present an Irish question ; it was as much an English one as if
it related to any other part of this country not separated by a nar-
row channel. After some remarks, proving the necessity of pass-
ing the Catholic Relief Bill, the Hon. Baronet went on to say,
that now there was • happy combination of circumstances which
presented a most favourable occasion. On the one hand the Ca-
tholics were in expectation of recovering an invaluable boon, which
the Protestants were ready to bestow on receiving a smsll security.
Thus they were anxious as to forgetting, nobly forgettiog, their
old prejudices, ready to sacrifice their notions of prejudice—a ge.
nerosity of conduct that entitled them to the blessings, well wishes,
and gratitude of every man capable of appreciating such
disinterestedness ; they laid aside their excited feelirgs ; they
held out the band of friendship to their Catholic country-
men, and that man must be prepared to take on himself
great responsibility who would interfere to prevent a con-
summation of that harmony which all so much de.ireil. The
larger portion of the Protestants, with one accord, called for the
measure of relief for the Catholics ; and that man usual indeed be
actuated by strange motives, who, with notions certainly unfit
for practice, however beautiful in theory, would not yield them
when opposed to the general good ; they should be laid aside by
practical men for the benefit of the country, and he should be
ashamed not to be ready at all times to give up something for the
well-being of his country. He did not stand there the advocate of the
Catholics ; he was as much the advocate of the Protestants—rather
he was the advocate of both. At the same time he declared. that
if the benefit of one was incompatible with that of the other, he
would, from his natural feeling of alliance with the Protestants,
give them the preference. Now was the opportunity of confer-
ring emancipation ; the mind of Ireland was now in the best state
for its reception; it would receive it with gratitude; one and the
same feeling seemed to pervade both caries; their prejudices
were softened down; not only all danger, but the semblance of it
v.n)shed ; dissatisfaction there nowhere existed. He again de-
clared that when such an opportunity offered, he would blush not to
give up all abstract principles—all vague theories, than not act with
men for the national good on practical principles. (Loud cheers.)
The Honourable Baronet, after some further observatious, went
on to say that the lion. Member for Armagh (Mr. Brownlow)
deserved the gratitude of his country. He has fulfilled an obliga-
tion to his country, for which he will ever have reason to rejoice, and
have done a service to his country, the memory of which he ought
ever to retain. (Cheers.) His manly declaration had done much
to promote the question of Emancipation, nor could he (Sir
Francis Burdett) consent to separate them. No, he would
blush to descend to the MOM subterfuge. (Cheers.) He looked
on it as connected with the Catholic Bill, and would therefore'
give :his support to every step of it. The Honourable Baronet
went on to say, that now a more kind feeling prevailed between
Catholic and Protestant than at any former period. He attributed
it in a great degree to the investigation then going on. Persons of
every side were brought together; they forgot their prejudices on
meeting ; and knowing each other each felt that the other was
actuated, perhaps, by as kind feelings as himself towards Ireland
though his views might be mistaken. lie implored the
Notice not to reject the present measure, which had been
acceded to by those most interested..He implored them not to
look to an interference with the rights of elective franchise as too
great a price for emancipation. It was fit to consider it as • secu-
rity to Protestants—intended to establish peace and harmony on
the hest% of religious toleretion. Nor was any man justified in
saying that the time may come when the proposed measure may
become unnecessary. After some further observations, t.ie Hon.
Baronet concluded amidst loud cheers.

111 r. DENMAN was decidedly opp.wed to the Bill before the
House. Ile looked upon it as a most unjust measure, likely.to
create a monopoly ; and whatever may have been said °theirs(
by its advocates, it in fact went to distrambise the Irish forty WI.