The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1805-05-15 00:00:00

STEIVAIIIIS.

John Atkin, Frey. M.P. Samuel S Lettsorn,
John Dir E.q. W. 1,. Newman, Esq.
Perrntt Fenton, Esq... W. Pearce, Eng.
Benjamin Gol.hreid, Esq. Joseph Pulley, Faq.
Witham Knights, E.q. Cherie; Twit
Newman Knowlva, Eaq. Ruben Wigram, jun EN.
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11, Devonshirsure. t, City.

•
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Mr. W. SMITH moved the order of the day
for resuming the adjourned debate upon the Petition
of the Roman Catholics of Ireland; which being
read, he said, that he felt himself rather disagreea-
bly circumstanced, in attempting to offer his few
remarks, after the able and eloquent speech of the
Hon. Gent. (Mr. Grattan), who delivered his senti-
ments upon this subjea, last night, in a manner so
highly impressive upon the House, and so credita-
ble to his own talents, as gave the country, in that
instance, reason to pride itself in the circumstance
of the union with Ireland. Whatever may he the
fate of the petition—and, should the House even
think proper to rejea the motion, he hoped it would
be done with more moderation than was evinced
by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Dr. Duige-
nan), who spoke so harshly the preceding debate.—
A great allowance was certair'y to be made for the
feelings of those, who.felt, in ;heir own persons, or
through their islitnate conneairms, the immediate
miseties of a civil war, with all the exasperations
natutally resulting from them ; yet, making all due
allowance, he thought that something more of tem-
per might have per!aded the discussion. Although
the Hon. Gentleman alluded to embraced, in his
long speech, all the topics connected with this ques-
tion, yet it seas evident, that he dwelt mere upon
the charaaer of the Catholics, and their religion,
considered merely as such, than on the genuine me-
rits of the subjea. He did not so much attempt to
answer any of the arguments of the Hon. Mover,
as he endeavoured to make the sillies% altogether
odious. it was possible for persons to take too near,
as well a; too distant a view of any subjea—and, by
dwelling upon some particular part, represent tile
%hole under the most improper prejudice—which,
of all others, formed the very worst tuundation, as,
iu the eyes of the persons so warped,
" Trines light as sit,
" Are confirmations wont,.
" As Fools of Holy Writ."
In his opposition to the measure, the lion. Gent. as
he thought, rather unfairly availed himselt of two
opposite sides of the question. He first argued,
that the Roman Catholics would not take the oath
prescribed, and afterwards contended, that if they
did take it, they were not to be believed. To shew
how groundless the latter insinuation was, Ire then
held in his hand a paper, containing a list of 2000
Roman Catholics, who suffered severe penalties.
sooner than take the oath prescribed by the ea of
George I. ; and we had lately very strong proof of
a similar reluftance in Roman Catholics to take any
oaths, which their conscience did not approve. In
no instance was this mere exemplified than in the
suffering Clergy of Franc who wete so long living
here upon our bounty, that some people even com-
plained of their consuming the bread necessary to
our own sustenance; though, by taking the oaths
prescribed by the Revolutionary Constitution, they
might have remained at home in security and plenty.
He would put this smhborn taa in opposition to all
the antiquated decrees which might have in ancient
times been promulgated by the nearly-forgotten
councils of Nice or of Latern. It could not be
supposed that he who professed himself a Pro-
testant Dissenter, could entertain any great pre-
dileftion for the Roman Catholic Religr ; but
he could not give much weight to the extrava-
gant supposition, that the admission of Roman Ca-
tholics into Parliament would involve people of that
persuasion to return the most worthless and mis-
chievous amongst them, in order to destroy the
whole of our system, unless they were allowed an ex-
clusive patronage. It was ;in his opinion, wild in the
extreme, to suppose that any thing of that sort could
be attempted, much less effeaed under a Protestant
King, PrtoestanfMinistars, and a majority of a Pre-
tenant Parliament ; supposing even the calculation
to be realised, that the Roman Catholics m:ght be
able to return 80 disaffeaed men into that House,
was it to be concluded, that King, Ministers, and
558 Protestant gentlemen would consent to capita-
late to 80 rebellioas Itishmen ? he would leave it to

the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) opposite
him to answer such an observation. Whatever might
have been the maxims held by individuals or bodies
in ancient times, nothing was more certain than that
the operrons of men were always mutable, and that
nothing '.as immutable except the unerring laws of
teason. He never would believe, that there was
any thing in the disposition of the Roman Catho-
lics which would prevent them frtarn being wrought
upon h good treatment, as well as other men. He
concur red in the opinion delivele.l by a great man
(Mr. Burke), that there was no such thi.sg as geo-
graphical morality, and that the influence of gond
treatment and op/session must be the same in one
country as in another.. If it were true that
the Catholics were so constituted that no bene-
fits could conciliate them, there was no al-
ternative but to continue them in chains. The Bri-
tish Legislature llstered to no such opinions as those
of the Learned Gent. when they adopted the Ca-
tholic Constitution of Canada, which never created
any iiisasreaiose• or rebellions. If the natural cha-
railer of the Catholic Religion was such as had
been represented, the effeas would hare been the
same in Canada as in Ireland. lf, in Canada, we
pursued, «S in Ireland, a set ies of confiscations and
seventies, discontents would naturally arise from our
apprehensions, and not from the religion of the
people. lie could not conceive how Catholic pre-
judices could be more than those of Protestants,
and in either, he knew no other means of obviating
them, than by the influence of reason, and the con-
fident observance that no more oppressions should
ha exercised. He WAS sorry to find that the discus-
sion of this subjech now appeared in lather an unfa-
vourable point of view, in consequence ot the deci-
sion which had been pronounced upon it in :mother
House; bathe House f Com/leans should hear in
mind its own independence. It was their duty to
judge for themselves ; and they may, without va-
nity, cherish the hope. that should their decision be
in favour of the Petition, it would ultimately have
weight in every other quarter. He Amid lament.
indeed, it the Catholics of Ireland were given to
understand that there was branch of the British
Legislature willing to take their respeafal Petition
into consideration. For his own part, be was ex-
tremely desirous of having a 'united number of Ca-
tholic Gentlemen sitting in that House. His ac-
quaintance with Gentlemea of that persuasion was
not very extensive; but, judging by those whom he
did know, be could perceive nothing in their cha-
maer or condua which was inconsistent with the
purest principles of religion.
Mr. LEE--." The question now under considera-
tion appears, tin, to me. to be the gravest and
most important that ever was debated within the
walls of Parliament. k matetrally eriaereuriFthe
Al of Unien, and should lave been maturely con-
sidered before that measure was adopted. I will
not assert, that sa bile that plan was in agitation.
this concession to the Catholics was expressly stipu-
Lted; but I never heard it denied, that there was
at least an understanding on the subja, Not
having the same opinion of the benefits or that pen-
jest, As many others seemed is entertain, i had Vlntr,
hopes that it might have been averted, till I ob-
served that these expectations were held out by the
Right Hon Gentleman who proposed this measure.
is a speech so replete with reasoning And eloquence,
as would have done honour to the brightest era; ot
Gtecce or Roma. Toe Rtin Hors. Gentleman shen
said, that the disproportion which before existed
between the persons professing the Catholic And
Protestant religion in Ireland, being done away by
this measure, afforded a chance that the same ob.
jeaious would not be made to the Cathnlies nay ag
a Mil participation in the Lintish Constitution. Tura
speech, mane of us knew, made a very deep im-
pression on the minds of the Irish Catholics; and.
having carefully attended to all the d; bees which
took place at. that time, I could not help observ-
ing, that there was no Gentleman in this House who
made a stand upon that point, or endeavoured to
obtain a pledge either way upon it.. I was also
present in this House, when the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman was questioned as to his reasons for resign-
ing, and recollea his having answered, that he did
so in consequence of being unable to carry a mea-
sure, which appeared to hum essential to the public
welfare, declaring at the same time, that he owed
too much to his lloYal Master to press the subieft
on him, and that he shruld think it his duty to
oppose it, if it came from any other quarter ; at
present, though I am from principle determined to
support the Motion since it has been submitted, I
must now declare, that I think it wrong in the Ro-
man Catholics to bring it forward at this moment.
I should out support the repeal of the Test to the
Dissenters, if that. were now the question, though
undoubtedly the argument ot numbers does nut
apply to them in the same manner, as it does
to the Ronein Cathelica of Ireland, who, in
point of rights, must be acknowledged to be one
short of their due proportions. When you coo-
sides that, on the lowest cAlenlat;on, the Catho-
lics of Ireland compose three millions out of Eve
of the inhabitants of that cottetcy, and ate
rapidly increasing in wealth and crrisequeree, you
cannot shut your eves to their si:u4;ion, and your
own sense must nuke itp your mind to grant what
is impossible to be avoided. I freely confess, that I
have nut the least ilea of the measure succeeding
at present—and am very ave:l convinced, that the
Roman Catholics tleenselves du not rape& it.. In
their private conversation, they dn nut atieft to
think, LA: their wishes will be. immediately com-
plied with. They say, that in titre it will work its
way, by the force of reason—but that they cannot
expea the Protestants at once to throw away those
bulwarks, which they so carefully raised against
them. The effeft of it is sure. li,. never slowly it
may operate. I remember myself, that when a
bill was brought into the hi h Parliawsraet,
for the purpose of indulgent- to the Catholics theme
were only thirteen Members in the House whom,*
in Luaus of it; and yet such was the pawl& esti

~.~


tation, and such the strong sensations excited by its I
agitation, that the Government was soon convinced
that something must be done upon- 1:. The change
of opinion that took place was equally violent and
sudden. The grand juries in the ditferent tenth-
ties assembled, and agreed its resolutions against
the claims of the Catholics ; and yet, in a short
fine after, those very grand jurors themselves
were the first who voted in their favour. The Irish
Parliament, in my opinion, meted or. that occasion
with great prudence, in not granting them the whole
of what they asked for ; and, so much inclined am I
to this gradual extension of privileges, that, should
the House go into a Committee on the Petition, I
should he averse to granting all their demands,
though 1 would agree to Members of that religion
sitting in both Houses. No man, who values
the constitution, can approve of three millions
of his fellow subjects being unrepresented in
the Parliament ; bet it was very well argued by
the Hon. Mover of this question. that the Catholic
body is not even virtually represented, though the
members of it are allowed to possess the eleetive
franchise. I will even put it to the Learned and
Hon. Gent. near me (Dr. Duigenoil whether, it his
cOnstituents were of that persuasion, he could be
cOnsidered as the organ of the Catholics ? All the
evils apprehended tram giving them seats in Par-
liament, are now no more than fanciful and chime-
. ricol. It WAS formerly said, it you give the Ca-
tholics the elective franchise, the consequence
will be that they wad vote for no member without
putting to him a test that he will be obedient to
their purposes. But they have since obtained the
franchise, and no such tests or other consequences
have been ever known to happen. It turned out to be
no more than the whim of a distant danger, which
vanished as it approached you. All the danger
that can happen has already been.incurred. You have
given suffrages to, and put arms into the hands of-
persons but slightly educated, and most liable to
entertain the prejudices you are so much afraid of ;
and refuse privileges to the higher orders, whose
principles are more sound, and who possess the
^moose stakes in the country. To perpetuate these
o
coodusions, Gentlemen go back to obsolete coun-
cils, and ages of ignorance and bigotry ; but will
any man in his senses seriously compare the opinions
of the Catholics of the eleventh with those of the
nineteenth century ? I hive nut the Protestants them-
selves changed their tenets and opinions with the
revolutions of time ? In this age of rapid and
progressive improvement and cultivation of the in-
celled, arc we to he gravely told, that the Catholic
mind alone stands All, and that the people of this
day are to be condemned because their ancestors
were bigots i If so, but let me ask again who is the
man amongst us who might not be-equally condemn-
ed upon the same principle ? While arts, sciences,
and hues inipmve, it would be hard it the
human mind alone remained where it was, and that
men in this age should he tried by a few foolish re-
solutions, passed in the Council of Lateran. It has
been said, the if the Catholics were once admitted
to an equal Participation of rights, their first step
would be, to overthrow the Protestant Govern-
ment. 1, however, em so far of a contrary opinion,
that I can octet conecive the union of the two coum
vies, or Bliti.li conned:on *safe, while three millions
of our fellow.subjeds :ire held in political bondage.
Nothing appeat s to me so evil, so extravagant, and
sn unreasonable, as to suppose you can keep such
multitudes always quiet, unless you are determined
to redre.s them. Many persons have expressed
their surprke. that although the Reformation ex-
tended itself so rapidly in England, it made so little
•
and such slow progress in lreLled ; but a little reflec-
tion will soon resolve this problem. It is allowed that
the same means have not been used in one country as
isi the other, for milting the Reformation take root.
We have records and testimonies in abundance, to
slice/ that in times comparatively remote. Ireland
wis cnnspienoas for its civilisation and literature;
but the reign i f I lenry VIII. when the Reforma-
tion commenced, happened to fall in one of the
darkest ages of that country. There was another
cruse which did not less opera, against the progress
of reform. When the Monarch already mentioned
test attempted to ostend it in Ireland, it appeared,
from the letter addressed to him on that occasion
by the F-11 Master of the Rolls, that the Sove-
reign's Government did not extend beyond twenty
miles from Doblin, and of course his influence was
proportionably contrasted. It is, therefore, manifest
that the regular order was inverted, for the King
should have-conquered the country first, and endea-
voured to convert the inhabitants afterwards. Here
the Reformation was propagated by argument and
reason. In Ireland the method taken was, to pro-
pagate it by the sword,which has seldom proved the
fittest instrument for making proselytes. In Eng-
land, the King had no competitor, and easily dot-
fusa.l his Reformation amongst the people; in be-
land, he possessed but a very binned authority,
and the d,i&iines he wished to enforce were
opposed and resisted by the natives. The im-
politic oppression exercised in. Ireland was
a f....reor obstacle to its progress. Henry pass-
ed a law prohibiting the F.nglish settlers from
intermarrying or oosseoraz with the natives. As
this word fostering has an application in Ireland
different from whist it ha, here, it may be right to
explain that it refers to the poorer sort of the fe-
• males suckling the children of the rich, which, in
that country, is ptodsilive of a kind of intimate in-
tercourse and comedian. It is also to be observed,
that it was the same Parliament of I lenry that pro.
mulgated the reformation, which also passed this
prohibiting Ad, which violated all the manners
and customs of the people. In every respell
the proceedings in the two countries were so
I extremely different, that the reformation was not
allowed the same play in the one that it was in the
other. When the King thought proper to shut up
the Monasteries, and destroy the hlonastic livings
in England, he liestowed them, by grant, upon
i great lands, and men ro considerable property, who
commanded the 'respeiti of the people. In Ireland,
no the contrary, be bestowed them on English set-
tlers, and vie -illy adventerers, whose interests were
constantly at variance with those of the people.—
Titough the territory of the Government, as I ob-
.
•
served before, extended no farther than twenty
miles from Dieslin, yet Rislmps and other clergy
were sent ,ar..r who never thought of residing on
tite'ir benefices; and, instead of propagating their
doarines, had, in fat. no eonneition whatever with
• the ishabitaats. If the religion then adopted had