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London, England, 1807-04-10 00:00:00

•
Prvalit 1350.)

131Pittl Al, PARLIAMENT.

known to he unfortunately founded in fart ;
when it did appear that His Majesty had
been advised to dismiss his Ministers, because
they refined to aft against their oaths, and
their consciences ( Loud cries of Hear ! kor 1 lee,o !
from the Opposition Benche,l i and because they had
declioed to abdicate the ditty incumbent upon
them ; I Sir, for one, was most deeply alarmed ;
because I thought it a matter of danger to the
Constitution, and subversive of its main props and
securities. I did think that this Howie would
be defective in its duty, if it suffered any time to
elapse previous to coming to such a Ruda.
tion as that now proposed. But, Sir, 1 now
think, that the adjournment which has taken
place, has been rather fortunate than otherwsie ;
because L aro convinced, that the time which
has intervened, would only tend to enable Members
to ascertain more properly the merits of the
question, and to come more easily to it Coolf
tion of thaseareityof wits &viatica of this rrse
sure. It has been thereby rendeked more apparent
and more cogent ; so that I am confident that this
Resolution, or one of the sort. will be agreed to, bT
this House, with mote alacrity, and be attended
with more weight, on account of its beiiig adopted
on more mature deliberation. Meer ! hap !
bier !J The King, as is well known, exercises
the function of the Executive Government, subse-
, quent to the decisions of his great Council. con'sist-
ing of the Lords and Commons, in Parliament as-
, semided. But, Sir, front the popular nature of
biep
these assemblies, end of their proceedings, it is -
email, in order to secure dispatch to put
mess, of Flceat importance, that a large
' thereof be vested in His Majesty's Go -
ment. Every ad of that GovernMent, however;
it whittle to the re-consideration, to the census%
end, if neessary, to the reversal of Parliament, e$
well as to their approbation, previous to its com-
ing under the consideration of His Majesty ; and
this it is which distinguishes onaGovernment from an
arbitrary, and from a reptsblican Government.—
The security which we possess against the inisoen-
duel of Government is obvious. When constitutional
principles are attacked, they have may to be stated,
with as much clastinetrie.s as possible, lithe Repre-
Sentatives of the people, chosen by themselves,
iihiiie viikassigs the best safeguard of their rights
• •
and privileges. f! is obvious, that very erroneous
measores may be proposed by the Executive'Oos
stynment, or it may he guilty of omissions; and
iebat security has Parliament or the people, that the
Fairs of the nation will be conducted as they ought
to be, without prejudice or partiality, and with a
sempletekr:owledge of all circumstance% a state-
; merit of all arguments. ind an impartial considers-
tun of the real totems oe'the country ? What ie.
te.ty have they that those steosures have bees '
epos soffirciest reflvetion, or doe' Worms.
tins? et bow has the people sit down con-
tented with the administration. if those who com-
pose it are to be fettered in their decisions, or bound
oy particular pledges? It is impossible to guard
agaityit reistakes; but it is surely in the highest de-
gree satisfidory to the people to know that public
affairs are entrusted in the hands of thoie who are
incliited to oft for the general security, and *to set
that the hest shall be stone. The security which the
people have hitherto fold for this upright cctiduet
in the Administr.tioto has been the oaths adminis-
tered to the • Privy Coonsell.irs, as expressed by the
1140. Gentleman who has made this motion. It
was the with of the most tyrannical Pt ince that ever
reigned in this country, li.ing Henry the Eighth,
that every Privy Ousisellor should throw aside all
manner of•ditomulaiino. Lord Cote says, that
Oitomulation is of all other evils the most ,
dangerous to the Constitution; and ad.;l, that
the truth, end the whole trush, should, upon eyes y
suilyeet meet the Royal ear ; that the best opinions
of the Privy Council should be submitted to the
Executive Government. What secdrity remains for
us. it this House and the other reposz implicit
etiqfidence in an Administration v.ho are tri possession
of fads which lead them to think some measures
prudent to be adopted, yet do not think them pro-
per to be divulged? We may know that they are
bound by oaths ; but what well be the conserpience.
. They may
it they are aiding against their oaths? ih
h
he doing that which they know to be wrong, and
omitting that which they krow to be right; their
hands rosy be tied up, and theit mouths may lyeblut,
by previous stipulations; ...ley may be no longer
us possession of the right of dotag their duty,
or the right of fulfilling their oaths. It is on
these wounds thif I am convinced of the absur-
dity, and even criminality, of any set of Minis-
ters coming under stipulations or pledges, 'And it is
therefore that I second the Motion. I must own
t!, it it appears, upon this occasion, that the Consti-
mhos has Men attacked in its most vital part. The
Government may nai—l, II a SeeCIOU, Clow; but ail
Mai be false colours ; Ministers may be rosies.l of
grail abilities, but their hands may be tied up; their
powers of consideration may be tit no security to
the people, if they have Ten tinned their characters
as faithful counsellors; every' thing may be con-
dueled in violation of their oaths, and, at the same
time, uo the injury of the country. If this House do
itot a„ see to such a resolution, it wilt only be show-
ing that we ale sitting here as unfeeling spedatirs
of the dangers to witch the fundamental p: metolts
of our Constitution hive been exposed."
General CRAWFORD—" Sir. in stating my
sentiments upo.s ?Lis subject, I am desirous to con
cider the question in its full extent, as originally
intended to have been proposed to the House, it l
may jugs front the original untie% which was given
by me Hots. Gentlornan who has brought it tor.
ward. I think it is a sto mason which it it impos.i•
ble to discuss seeraiately. from its application; I
mean that it is impossible au: to advert to the Con.
duel of His Pdajooy's late Ministers. whien totem-
dietely o.c scot. .•!. their femoral trolls las Cnoactis.
I commitr that that tam oval from nac't has girth
,c to the present ruction. I by no 'means wish.

it my duty to limit or, alter my motioos so as to
effe& a snore general object. I do think that
it is the duty of this House too, to dirge their at-
tention to those doctrines which are hereby likely
to be contended for, and to avert the consequences
of their dissemination. I allude to that pledge by
which His Majesty's Ministers were direaed to re-
str4ii themselves, by a written obligation, from
giving such advice to His Majesty as they might
deem necessary, according to the importance of the
objet, and the security of the country. Such a
wish could only have arisen in minds neither care-
ful of the prerogative of the Crown, nor the con.
stiwtional interest of the country. I conceive it?
Sir, to be proved. as a general proposition of our
constitutional law, in dirt& contradieffbn to those
doCtrines presupposed upon that occasion, that any
attempt to counteraa the power of consideration,
and giving that advice which His Majesty's servants
may from time to time think proper to submit to
their Sovereign. is suhversive of the esta r 1 law
4ififae cnonuy. sad contrary to the f
principles of the Constitution. His Majesty has, en.
doubt, a full discretion as to the apodunment of his
Ministers; but he cannot restrain those whom he has
appointed, irons giving that advice which circum-.
stances may require. Responsibility is one of the
rights of the Constitution, and where can that re-
sponsibility exist, which has not a correspondent
contioul? Where, I would wish to know. win
blame attach for miscoodutt, it His Majesty's Mi-
nisters are to be circumsctibed Responsibility*
therefore, is, I AM. a great and predominant prir4
ciple of our Constitution, whir h I believe is sometisnis
not well understood. I conceive, however, that such
responsibility as I allude to. most be that of great'
data:leis and exalted names, trot of mere political
adventurers, who will tender their invalid security
to a deluded peoples ( Hear ! riesrir I bear !). Sir,
upon a subjeCt of suc importance, it would ill be.
come me to attempt to delineate th,ose great outlines
of constitutional principles, whiih have been by
uniform pra&ice hithetto so completely marked
out. If their °bird were doubtful, I might indeed
venture tc hazard some mgumcnts to ascertain their
dire; ion ; and if fallen into disuse, to contend for
their adoptioa ; but, Sir, they are principles which
are already acknowledged. admitted, and recog-
nised, by every authotity on constitutional law.
Were they even less generally known to many of the
Members of this Hose, than they really are,
I contend that the very oaths of those Cetinseliets
of His Majesty, would be sufficient to remove any
existing doubt upon that subject. the Institutes
of Lord Chief Justice Coke, the ancient form of the
oath is to be found ; and it appears ;hat they were
thereby to bind themselves to advise this King gene-
rally for the good of himself and his sittrje&s,
without any partiality, affeCtion, or dread of any
person whatever. A bdusirder is hound to keep the
seeress of the King's Council, so as ant to pnblida
them by word or by writing. How tar this line
has been olasered by some indieidnals. will &p-
-pearl from some late publications in a daily paper.
(lino- ! hear ! bear !) I shall that, however, go
further beyond my intended line, by making ousel,
•ations upon such reprehensible condaet. In all
things. it is said, that Priyy Counsellors must faith-
fully and truly divulge tneir minds, . and deliver
their oponons. It, then, a Privy Counsellor. atter
swearing such anbath,shall sign a pledge er ei;ccute
a deed, ui coontera& its effe3, what has be to an-
swer for to his King, his country, and his
God ? The consequent criminality of such a
condo& is so obvious, that I leel ashamed to argue
a p. inciole so axiomatic to cnastitutional law. hut
some there must be who venture to deny it I Some
there must be, who ere ignorant of the Constitution
of their country ; or, if they know its principles,
have yet dared to advise it. perversion I Conhaing
myselr, then, to [fiat part.colar point of view, in
which I conceive such a doctrine would be danger.
nose I shall fot heir entering into the merits ut the
late Administratior„ as their conduit has been such
as mast be approved by all who are friendly to
tl.e fundamental principles of our glorious Consti-
union. I will not detain the iio..se by making
aqr futther remarks on the various measures
they thought proper to adopt in tupport of the
rights, tl,e interests, nay, even the very lives
of the people. These are afts which will long
br ittirrt4sed *mint the minds, not only of their
coultrym:in, but even of the oppressed Africans,
who wail shortly feel the effeEts of our national be.
nevolence, and pour toith their grateful acknow-
ledgments to &Assn individuals who, amongst the
ttlicr ohjen, of their attention, did out tail to use
their efktto it ea .ttions in behalf of the gulf:rung
slave. Whin I consider in) Fountry is danger, by
threatened innovations upon the principles of our
Constittuio.., I shall never f to come forward to
pinfortri'what 1 conceive to be my public duty j And
such Ale the grounds upon which t have /fled up.in
the prehins occasion. I shall not trespass fortne.i
upon the patience of the House, than by suirmi.ting
Ole following Motion for year con:oder-4c and
adoptiom
..'first it emu:ars to the fit* duties of the coniSdarnisl
'wimps ins owed. w osmium' tbaaile.res by any pledge,
ehrte..od isbiawbOtobb saniog is Iris Alas say a4v.ce,
wilitc.l t ot4r4t ast castablataners Iniy rel.4a tee
the welt4l4l Ina sccurtty icy pAtt ,tt lute hiJoety's extgostrio
suevirr.'
Mr. LAMB..." 1 rise, Sir, for the purpose of
seconding tart motion which has been made. Al-
though use (Asset V.itiClS which have just now filled
tr:m the Hors. Mover. must be acknowledged by
.all. to be clear, pet %vicunas, and convincing, ye,
upon a so:ie..t oU:h importalice as this is, 1 CAS-
not avoid making a. few Additional observations.
tnibt that the sul.j:a of this in .non, although
iiiirulving comaJerainnits of very greet tnagaittnie,
adants of a plain, clear, and easy deostoo ; And ap-
pear. a very small t onipte.. I beg
leave th.nt. to n..set se, that immesh/sit:ly before thy
recess, wnen those rumours which bad agitated the
puhtic mind, as to the change that was abut to
take olau.. LA lie' Majesty's Adeamistratiott, woe

HOUSE OF LORDS—Tituftsumr, Aran. 9.
The Royal Assent was g/Y,n by Commissiop
certain Bills ; for which see Gie Common*..
Adjourned.

HOUSE Ul• COMMONS.

Mr. Quarme, Deputy Usher ot the Black Rod,
summoned the House to attend in the House of
veers, in order to hear the Commission read, and
tlo Royal Assent given to certain Bills.
Upuit their return, the SPEAKER informed the
!louse, that the Royal Assent had been given, by
.Commission, to the Royal Femly Annuity Amend-
ment Bill, and several private Bills.
'fen new Members were sworn, and took their
seats ; among whom were, Mr. Charles Lung, Mr.
Curwen, etc.
A Message from the Lords acquainted the House.
hat their Lordships hail
agreed to the Coffee
and Coco* WaretomeMg ; coon Globe I osurance
Cempetiy Bill ; and some private Billie
The West Indus Dneir Road Bill WAS read a
second time, and entered to be committed.
Sir Wm. Curtis presented a Petition from tbe
London Clergy, the President and Fellow* of Zion
College, against the Catholic Atniy B;11, which
was ordered to lie on the Table.
The Scotch Schoolmasters' 1361 was read a second
time, and ordered to ee committed on this day
es'itnight.
TheTraders' Assetts Bill was also read a second
time, and ordered to be committed on Tuesday
neat.
Upon the motion of Sir JOHN NEWPORT,
the Irish lafirmaty Bill, and tLe Irish Judges' Atfie
davit Bill. were severelly read a second urne, and
ordered to be committed teenorrove.
Lord Folkston presented a Petition from Wil-
liam Drake, now a frisoner in Nevagate, haying
been committed by an order of the Howe, for pre-
varication before the Ccminittem upon the West-
re:oster Eleftion Petition, praying his enlarge-
ment.
The SPEAKER observed, that it was his duty
to state to the kleuse. that, in Petitions ot this sta-
ture, it had been constantly expelled, that the Pe-
taioner should confess his fault ; there did not appear
in tbe present Petition, any thing like confession or
contrition.
fhe Petition was consequently withdrawn.
eoetsUCT OF THE ADMINtsTRATICIN.
Mr. BRAND rose. in pur.uence of his Notice.
and addresses! the House to the following pur-
port ;
Mr. Speaker—l rise, Sir, to submit to you,
some observations upon a matter of great national
moment, _inasmuch as it ie one of vast constitu-
t.enel importance; and in doing so, I must confess
the* 1 tool * real INA 000.1gued regret, that
web a subjese should have come into the hands
of one so unequal as I am to tech a task
I acknowledge myself unfit to give aufecient va-
lidity to any arguments that might be ad.
duced in support ot the question I am now :area .
to ptopve, and gave therefore to express my fed-
ings of anxiety, conftision, and alarm ; te.lings
which cermet but till the mind of one who is so
new in this House, and in unaccustomed to public
duty, as the humble individual who now addresses
you. I have, therefore. Sir, to entreat you and the
House to ;rant me that indulgence. welch, it is
well known, you are upon all cceesiens so
much inclined to give to those indivieuels, who,
with 'diffidence, rise to fulfil wagt they may
justly deem their duty as Members of Parliament.
At the same time, l have also to request. that you
will not attribute that weakness wnich originates
in its Advocate, to the cruse which be has under.
taken to delend. Previous, Sit, to the late Ad-
journment, a statement was made to .his House,
lull, luminous, and highly setiateetory, t xplanatory
of the change which has lately taken place in His
Majesty's Couuctls. By that statement, I confess,
that I, for one, wits enable!' to form a complete and
accurate knowledge of the conduCt of that Astral-
iiiscrettop, as being one that had the confidence of
teas llou.e, notwithstanding that His Majesty has
been n ivised to displace them. It was All Adnsi.
titstretion, Sir, iii whose conduit I see withal to
condemn ; but, on the contrary. from their molly,
upright. aced persevering conduit. I perceive much
to applaud and to admire. By their dismissal, I
am convinced, that the country will, with me, tet t
every reason to lament; fur, in their management
of the public affairs. I Gen pee nothing but what
was highly knowable. dignified, and constitu-
tional. Impressed with such sentiments, from the
moment that such a change in His Majesty's Coun-
cils took place, I felt myselt most mar ets, the,.
upon the present occasion, I should su.,isiit to you
certain Resolutions, expressive of the opinion of
this House. as SO Dia Majesty's late Adminiv.
:ration. I was pectaiaily desirous to as.uage
the influence of those mluntnious, ilijurtous,
and wicked representations, which have been, arse
are yet stated, against them, with malignant,
I may even say, with criminal persevecence.—
That anxiety arose from a conviCtion and a teeing I
entertained, that public chareeter was a mimes trust
the !lends of the House, anctot the country, ta se
much as public virtue is a national security. Stich
was my objet at the time I gave notice ot this ...y
intended nictim ; but, Sir, when 1 had obtained
lime for snore mature deliberation, when I had a:.
eppovtunity afforded me to iiieestigate the subject,
to tievc!ope a plan, and to analyse that sue:mein
which 1 tweed with so much ability and mammies,
made in this House, I thoue,to it my Jury to ea-ye
nr rather to confine the 4,l3ji:ct ot nsy motion upon
the present be:Aaiun. V. nen 1 traveled upon the
eiritimstence of novel pledges teeng demanded
of. Ministers. 014 sully 4'unit:sit to the interests, but
I.ighly dangerous to the Const.tutiou ot the cottatry.
1.5 evell y prjudisial to the Crosto itself, I. thought

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FRIDAY. APRIL 10, 1807 I PRICE SIXPENCE.
unfortunately founded in fart ; I however. to enter into the merits of the C•tholic
-*eat that If MAjesty had Question; that : consider as extraneous; and shall
'Os his Ministers, because therefore confine myself striely to the yoestinii sow . ;,,,,:•,. •
-.lust their oaths, and before us, as implied in the present motion ; and
••• Hear ! ker f hs,r ! also to the consideration of what immediately led
hecause they had to the dismissal from office of His Majesty's late
-ornbent epos Ministers. It was. as I conceive, the own coa-
ster/fled ; due which immediately forced His Majeray to Jr..
•••1 the miss them. It WAS W:11 known, that Cert 4;.. --in-
.4 scientious scruples had long eared in the Royal
Breast, as to the Catholic question ; which
think, proceeded froth the mot sacred and
vonstitntiortal foundation; arising as well
doubts to their admis•ib4oy to ter-
-% in a religions sense. as well
' one. It has been cin.idered
Twrent from the fuaJamentat
-'ion, as well as inconsttent
of the Empire in Ir.
it was a usbjett,
'.4 newer again
4 the most
'..,Ctferi .1
•ible
„

however, to enter into the merits of the Cstivilie
Question; that i consider as extraneous; and shall
therefore confine myself stridly to the question now
before us, as implied in the present motion ; and
also to the consideration of what immediately led
to the dismissal from office of His Majesty's late
Ministers. It was, as I conceive, the own con—
due which immediately forced His Majesty to die
miss them. It WAS welt known, that cetra;., -an-
scienttous scruples had long reined in the Royal
Breast, as to the Catholic question ; which
I think, proceeded Ginn the mist sacred and
most coustitntionel foundation; arising as well
from the doubts to their admis,ibility to cer-
tain privileges, in a religions sense, AS well
as in a political one. It has been cm.idered
as being widely different from the fuadamentat
principle, of the Constitution, as well as inconsitent
with tie welfare and interest ad the /Empire in ge.
anal; sod, therefore. I think it was a sehjeet,
which. upon every ground. should never again
have been sebmitted, eecept in a case of the most
urgent neceasity--(Aarsilairea fens Me MiTitferi .1
Reseirq—a necessity arisitig from such irresistible
urgency, as involving. absolutely, the very salva-
tion of the country (Mere Apprareli.”). /limiting
the case of this extreme urgency to exist, then ft
surely became Ministers to enter ioto the tenet(
possible cansideratien of all chase bearings which
will render any misseaderstandiog of the subjed ab-
solutely impossible ; to snake that clear and perspi-
cuous espienatioe, which might render as a matter
tereoxid all doubt,. that the Crown completely on-
derstands tlie full eatent of the measure which Mia
nistera require. If, its the prosecutieu of that mea-
sure, unforeseen circumstances shoord. Ative, which
require a further extension of it, then I think that
tie same minute ievestigation should have been en.
tered into, and a full espial:alien thereof made to
His Majesty ; the same pains should have been taken
in this case, to remove doubt from the Royal mind.
I shall therefore endeavour to examine how far the
coudue of the late Ministers has been smelly go-
verned by such principles, as, in my ophiinn. it
ought to have been. Tney have informed uA, that
in their opinion some measure was necessary is
order to allay some fermentation exisung in V a
minds of die Irish Catholic!, and they had th.sefot et
determined to andeavour to make His Majesty
change his former sentiments, and agree to extend
the provisions of the Irish Ad to tne empire at
large. Much has been said to prove the ab-
sordity, initiates, inconvenience. sad Mischief.
which arose Iron the anomaly of the Irish Aft
not having an operation beyond the limits of that
country ; but it does not appear to me, that any
case bat been ebsolutely made our. to shoe/ that
such great inconvenience exists. kind it aimed at.
all, it evetainey would have appeared long ere
Nem. Hence acme the ref:lda/ace of His Ma.
jestY ; yet. by its being pressed upon him. a
relcdant consent was ottrainee. The next teing
(lode was to send a dispatch to the Isord Lietn
tenant of Ireland, a di.patch which should have
been confined smelly to the subjeft which it was
meant to express, and ought not to have gone one
step further than the extent of His Majesty's corn
feat, that is. to the limits of the Irish Act, extended
to this country. How it lidopetied I caanot tell.
ton an expression found its way into that dispatch.
,'chit all Commissions whatever were to be granted to
the Catholics. This was surely a very great inacco-
rac;,and how it was possible that it should arise undt r
the direftme of such able men, so much versant in
pudic business, is not ease to imagine. When this
dispatch was reed to the Committee of the Ca-
tholics, it naturally gave rise to great expedations
in their minds. which would never otherwise have
occurred. They, however, thought it impassible
that His Majesty could have changed his opinion
so much, and accordingly desired some inform:-
..,)
post to clear their doubts. A. communication to I
that cried comes to this country, which was sent to i
His /sl.jesty in the commen w.y, as it it related to 'I
as ordinary ouestion. although it was entirely a
new one. It it was necessary for Ministers
to enter into an ezelartation at first, it was
surely doubly necessary oe this occasion. This
dispatch was accordingly retained by His M.-
jesty, Without any comment. Nn e, what was
the natural inference to be drawn from this ? It
WAS impaisiele to conceive that His Majesty had /
understood it ; yet, at was taken as certain, the r e
had consented to the whole of it's and that although
he had expressed reludamie at first, he, on this _ _
occasion, expense,: no reluctance az all. Surely,
then, it became the day of Miati'ers no: to send the
i,ext dispatch to Ireland. without making the ilea
cessary explanation to His Majesty. When His
Majesty next came to town. he put some ques:ims •
As to the proceedings at the House. and was then,
for the first time. informed, that the siihj•a was to
be brought forward as a separate Bill, instead of
being introduced into the Mutiny Bill. 'then it
was that he expressed :al unqualified disapproba-
tion. Tne original consent was therefore ot no avail,
as it only related to the extent of the Aft of 1793.
The one was a limited. the other a most unlimited
measure ; yet the Noble Viscount persevered is- -
bringing torward the measure, in defiance ot such
• dissent. His Majesty inforMed them of the alter-
native he most take, and never wished to exert .
any undue power over them, as he understands too
well the principle* of the Constitution, to do so.—
The King =est conititutinnally lass to his Minis-
ters, you must either withdraw your countenance
tram the measure, or withdraw yourselves, AS it is
one to which I have never given my consent. (Hear!
bet! hear !
.11,r: (Ar Opt Ula ,041 . I proceed entirely
Irons what has been staled is the pubti: prints. '
me,(dlerr/3.'0 t-OesUiresii taehe. Hon.elg gGnen.jetesSl.6 "A
tad
etablerahtelliOL
MCA talus place as to any possible modification of
their rein; because, although Ks tdej:sty abaci
lately insisted up in their withdrawing their count*.
twice to that Slit, lie never withdrew nis conceit, to
the original mcassue. He small .abutted to bee

la