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London, England, 1825-02-23 00:00:00

ebad found out this secret, was determined to remain silent le st
ebeele be again put to shame by the Honourable Member (Mr.
ieettgeetni who sat beneath him (51r. Hutchinson). The argu.
I eels ,tf those Gentlemen would be again refuted if they again
we:eel to state their arguments in support of this abominable %
measure. They were elisions, however, to hurry the matter I
$ Committee, depending on • niejority of the House. lie
11.) did not wish to speak of majorities of that House in terms
ereierespect ; but he knew what they had heretofore done in Eng-
Caul and in Ireland. They had hurried on England almost to its
ruin, by creating a taxation from which England could never be
'relieved ; and in Ireland they had driven the Irish to rebellion.
lle would not be brow-beaten or shinned from his duty, but he
could speak as an Irishman, and as one who was experienced in
the thing; of which he spoke. He had seen his country driven to
rebellion by opprceion ; and he would say, even if they. were the
lag words he should ever utter, that if ever their were • justifiable
rebelles:l, the rebellion of leer was so. He had before stated his
esevittian that every cinema who suffered in that rebellion was a
martyr, and that the Government who drove the people of Ireland
to the: rebenton, ought to have suffered as traitors fur so doing.
When that rebellion broke nut, he (Mr. Hutchinson) joined
heartily in putting it down ; but at the same time he reprobated
the cruel spirit of the Government, that hid' made ore hundred
rebels when there would have been only one. When the French
breed in Ireland, for the purpose of introducing their system into
be
that emote/ was equally ready to oppose them. Ile believed
.
tee Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. ISkohlburn) was not only
eiskiag the peace of Ireland, but was doing all he could to
cause a rebellion in Ireland. Yet Ireland, we were told, was
still going on in prosperity. for so the country was intermed by the
Speech of his Majesty, while his Majesty's Ministers could come
wrested and nppose the feelings of the whole population of Ire-
land, in order to gratify a faction. To gratify them, they would
put down this Association 104 insult • whole people. He would
beg of the Gentlemen opposite to pause before Breland.eed too
tar. From many accounts he had received frorn he knew
that there were more to be apprehended there than had long been,
for never lead any body so completely carried with them the feel-
ings of tee people of Ireland as the Catholic Association, and
never was there greater confidence placed in any man than was
elated in hie friend Mr. O'Connell—he was proud to call
hie his friend. The Government of Ireland had never
been so anxious to 'preserve the peace of the country as the
Association bee been. So far from giving his vote that the
House should now go into a Committee on this Bill, it was his in.
tention to more that it be considered in a Committee this day six
menthe He did not thick that any ease had been made out that
would juntity the House in going into • Committee. Ile begged
snow of the Honourable Members for having said so much, but
he begged pardon of his country for not having said much more.
He cotildfor a day and night continue to advocate the cause, to
sweet which he would readily sacrifice his life.
31r. PLLINIKETT begged to call back the attention of the
House to the question under consideration, and from which his
Honourable Friend (Mr. Ilutchiesoa) had so widely departed, in
taking so wide a range, as to have gone back even into the History
ut Ireland at sonic length. That lion. Member conceived that no
race had been made Out ; the House had been of opinion that a case
had been made out; and there he (Mr. P.) was satisfied to let the
teeter rest. lie wished, however, to say a few words relative to the
enotiou of the Hon. Member for Montrose ; and he would observe
that he was as anxious as that lion. Member, or any other person
could be, to prevent the admission-of any member of any unlawful
society into office under Government. He was, however, per-
fectly saudied that the mode proposed by the lion. Member was
not one cakulated to produce the desired ends, or one that ought to
be resorted to. The mode proposed was to administer an oath, and
the method was as unexampled one. The person to be admitted
into other must thus first swear that he is nut a member of any
illegal warty, and then lie must swear to the law, for he mast
know whet the law on the subject is. lie (Mr. Plunkett) had
never heard of compelling a party before entering into office to
',seer to a point of law. Again, • society became illegal in cense-
queate of the conduct of a portion of its members, and
she law provided that an individual should not be answer.
able for that of which he had no knowledge. The Honourable
Member would then make a person swear to a point of law, and a
point of law of which he might not be cognizable. He (31r.
Pledge) had every confidence in his Majesty's Ministers, and he
hoped and believed that they would not nominate any person to
office who was a member of any illegal society.
Mr. DEN3IAN said, that it was necessary to give Ireland •
proof that the measure was intended to be an impartial measure.
Ills .Majesty's Ministers should give decisive evidence, that the
Bill was not intended to oppress any particular party, sect, or
faith, especially the faith of the majority of the people of Ireland.
Mr. Secretary PEEL thought that, as a matter of policy as well
as of justice, Honourable Gentlemen should not condemn any Bill'
brought before the House, without having taken the trouble of
trading it. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman who had
lag spoken (Mr. Denman) attacked the Bill with the most vita.'
perauve language, and yet he had furnished detisive evidence
that be • had nut aken the trouble of reading it. He had ob-
jected to a clause in the second page of the Bill, which lie thought
highly objectionable, and when, at the suggestion of an Honourable
Friend, he turned from the second to the third poet, he confesses—
e Yes, indeed, that meets my objection." ( }tear, heir.) He (Mr.
Peal) should only sey, that that Hon. Gentleman, (himself •
Learned Judge, might have recollected, that before he dm:emu:el
a prisoere, he was in justice bound to hear his defence. He did
rot understand his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Plunkett) to have
censured the Hon. Member for Cork (Mr. C. H. Hutchin.
son), for introducing any discussion. though ever so far beyond the
question before the House. The Hon. Member complained that
les Majesty's Ministers refused to enter into the discussion of the
general principle of the Bill ; but after five nights discussion,
during Which every speaker at the opposite side of the House was
answered by a Member from his (11r. Peel's) side of the House,
he did not think that Ministers ought to be censured for confluing
themselves to the distinct proposition of the lion.elember for elon.
wee. lie thought by so doing, el inisters only consulted decorum and
the convenience of theHonee. As to the assertion of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Cork, that the arguments at his (Mr. Peel's) side of the
House bed been refuted, he should not now apply himself to it: it
was not for Hon. Members at his side of the Home to criticise their
own speeches. (Hear.) He should not now enter upon the sub-
ject of the rebellion in 1798, although this might be very important.
Without imitating the Honourable Gentleman's vehemence, he
*mild now apply himself to some other parts of his argument.
e Iloaoorable .letnber had talked of terrifying and shaming
the Government; and if be could not do this, he was to do some-
thing else. Now, without the Honourable elember's violence of
manna, but with equal firmness of mind, be (Mr. Peel) would
say, that no arraignment of his motive. a. • public man—no me-
Wee or aspersions, should terrify or frighten him, or induce him
to swerve from that duty which he owed his Sovereign as a
servant of the Crown, and the oats to as a servant of the public.
Tee Honourable Member had alluded to the House in the
sane terms: he talked of corrupt majorities • and, with instrue.
tee consistency, in about two sentences afterwards, he said,
1 rely upon the enlightened wisdom of this House, to remove the
disebilities under which the Catholics labour. How could the Hon.
Member reconcile a reliance upon the enlightened wisdom of the
House, with majorities who were induced from corrupt motives to
pee penal Pews insulting to the Catholics P The lion. Gentlemen
must base mistaken the motives of lion. Members at his (Mr.
Peel's side of the House. No man could seriously believe that
majorities of the House could be influenced by corrupt motives.
A defence from such an aspersion would only be an insult to the
Home, and if he endeavoured to defend it, he should only las a
stain on himself. The real question before the House was confined
to the distinct clause prepueed by the lion. elember for Monica*,
(Mr. Hume) and the futility of that clause had been so ably es.
Peed by his Right Hon. and Learned Friend, that he did not
think it necessary to waste many observations on the point. Any
person eelonging to an illegal Association, and bound by a mye-
terieue engagement, wee liable to transportation. All political
eracetatices taking any oath were illegal. Supposing any indi-
sidual looking for office, who was • Member of an illegal
sedety, by being a member of such Society he was liable to trans.
oration ? What reliance could be placed on a person already
'abject to transportation fur a breach of the law, that in order to
~get
~..fice he might rot also cOnmit perjury, which would only subject
Lute to the woe punishment ? Supposing that the individual does
tee belong to • Secret Society, but to an Orange Lodge; in this
cue tie should have no difficulty in saying, that it would be the
duty of his Majesty's Government to remove such an individual
from office. lie objected to the clause on this principle, and net
ice the repose of screening any.individuals. Indeed the Hon.
Member s proposal was so objectionable on principle, that he
trusted to his own good sense to withdraw it.
Mr. HUTCHINSON explained. He had used the words ter.
nfying and shaming, only in a Parliamentary sense. (Hear, hear,
antilaughter.) Ha said, tbat if they pursued those measures, so
dangerous, in his mind, to the tranquillity of Ireland, he hoped
the reprobation of the country would tall upon them. lie repeated
this, he still hoped it. He had alluded to the silenee of the Right
Honourable Gentleman opposite, because he considered that every
leetenent they used, were drawn from under :heir feet. In con.
1:"30: he dui not conceive that he ought to withdraw or qualify
thieg he had said.
Led ALTHORP side, his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hutchinson) had
used the word terrify—eenainly • strung word—in relation to the
d.algruus effect which the proposed ineseure should produce. He
did. not mean to throw any aspersion on the firmness of the Right
don. Gentlemen opposite. Should they propose measures, how.
trer, which tended to produce rebellion and confusion, their
eisdom should be impeached. (Hear, hear, from the Ministerial
benches.) Ile hoped the good seese of the Catholics would prevent
thew from resorting to force, whatever should be their feelings. He
'a, Iliad of this discussion, as it ha 1 induced Ministers, at length,
to State that they would not keep under them persons concerned in
"'teal emaciation. of any description. Ministers had been con-
ey appealed to On this subject, but the principle had never
acted upon by them. The motioa of his Hon. Friend had,
14 length induced the Ministers to COWS formed, and declare their
'4411140GL He Loped this declaration would et length put down
those Illegal societies in Ireland. ( liesr, hear.) Whether his Hon.
entrel should withdraw his motion, or press it to a division, he was
rwirtreed that by bringing it forward he had produced the best
feneible effect.
ee R. WILSON said, his Honourable Friend had been charged
!eh calling the majorities in that House corrupt. Ills Honourable
tenend could never have ineaut to say the Memberswere purchased.
au was of course impossible ; bet from the way that House was
:ensteuted it was equally impossible that Honourable elembers
'wind give votes altogether lode) indent. In common and public
le:lance, therefore, the House was said to be corrupt. His Hon-
' e Gallant Friend (Mr. Hutcherson) had referred to former
?""eds, and appealed to bins (Sir Robert Wilson) to bear
.I"nhrel to the erueleet and the horrors of duet days.