The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1807-04-18 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS--FaloAr. APRIL 17.

On t`ie motion of Lola WALSINGHAM,the
S.,rvanW Wag-s RiU, and the Irish Stamp Duty
Bill, were severally read a third time and passed.
The Irish Loan Rill was read a second time, and
ordered to be committed en Monday.
Mfr. HoVous*, and a deputation from the Com-
mons,, brought up the Loan Interest Bill, which was
read a fit it r:tabe.
SCOTCH JUDICATURE.

Lord GREVVIII:Ciii;;VCIase Order of the
Da) for the House resolving itself into a Committee
on the Bill for the is uer Regulation of the Courts
of Jodie* in Scotlaod.-o•dered.
The Name having resolved itself into a Com-
mittees
Leal WAI.SINGIIAM in the Chair;
Lewd KINNAIRD tote to acquaint teir Lord-
shipaaPat it was ois intention to move, "That the
Lord ident and the two Senior Judges of the
Court tit Session be ordered io attend."
The Duke of :\ION THOSE moved, as an amend-
ment, that the following words be added, "and be
admitted within the holy of thi; House."
The h.arl of LAUDERDALE wished the Noble
Li tots to recoiled, that the Order of the House
vatic) commanded the attendance of the Lord
President and Senior Judges, also extended to such
ether Judges as were able to attend. It so hap.
pened, that there were some other Judges of that
Court in town, and therefore he thought it neces-
sary that the present 1110i1011 should embrace that
pert of the case.
The motion so amended WAS put and carried;
and the Chairman was ordered to report the pro-
ceedings to the House forthwith.
The II 'use having resumed,
Load WA L.SINLVHAIrI reported the decision af
the Committee.
The Duke of MONTROSE argued in favour of
the right of the Scotch Judges us be admitted within
the hody of the House. At all times it was a great
and yewr measure of policy, to hold in reverence
a ,d estimation, those learned persons to whom was
entrusted the dispensation of the laws. But the
Judges of Scotland hada claim from the usages and
cust•ims of the Scottish Parliament ; as, previous to
the Color they. on all occasions, were entitled to
take their seats ia that Assembly. Under such cir-
cumstances. he conesive.o that the Judges of the
Court of Session, independent of all personal feel-
ings, were right in supporting what they supposed
the privilege of their body ; and, with that eon-
viaioo. he was int:bleed to submit the motion he
nude ir, the Committee, " That they be admitted
within the body o' the kleu-e."
The LOltD CHANCELLOR trusted the House
wou,d believe, that there was not amongst their
Lordships an individual who entertained for the
judicia. charaaer a higher reverence than he did ;
but, at the same time, It felt ccnvinced, that no
legal right extteJ by which the Judges, either of
Iceland or Scotland, were entitled to ,eatswithin the
body of the House. At the period when a Learned
Judge ft OM Ireland was placed below the bar of
Jibe House, he was seriously grieved ; but he still
new cotitentl, that the decision of the Committee
appointed to c into the precedents, was perfeti-
ly comas At all events, be had thought it his duty,
100 order to support the charafteristic dignity, and
toe necessary severence of the judicial charatter, to
consider of a legislative ad on that subje3 ; and he
mould now mem the House, with its i idulgence.
that be intended to ask for leave, that night, to bring
in tie Bill accordingly.
Lord AUCKLAND was of opinion, that as it
was the genial sense of the House, that the Judges
of ['eland and Scotland had no legal right to the
privilege, lie could not see the necessity of any le-
gislative interference. He was inclined to consider
such interference rather as an innovation of a most
siaiigirous telidecee.
Lord H4WKESHUHY contended, that the No.
ble Hama uid not per the suggestion of his Noble
and Learned Friend, in a fair point of view. If
the Judges of Scotland had now no right, surely it
WO not an improper measure. which would impart
to the judicial charaacr. both in Ireland and Scot-
land, that privilege. There was one great differ-
ence, at least it had so struck him, in a compari-
son between the right of the Scotch and Irish
Judges. The Irish Judges were called to Perlis-
trent by the summons of she King ; and, of course.
when that summons ceased. their right to a seat
%%Ohio the body of the House was annulled. But
the Judges of Scotland sat in the Scottish Parlia-
ment. try ismeremor eel usage; and the motion of
his Nohle Friend went to allow them that which
th-y Kid enjoyed in their national legislature. He
only stated these fees for die consideration of the
House, and not with any view of giving a decisive
opinion.
Lord HOLLAND expressed his willingness to
'option the Bill to which the Noble Lord alluded,
and which went to grant to the Judges of Scotland
and Ireland, the right of sitting within the body of
the House. At the same time, he must insist, that
the precedent in the case of Judge Fox was conclu-
sive against the present claim of the)Judges of the
Court of Session in Scotland. He felt the force of
the ohjeaion, even to the intended Bill. inasmuch as
it went to make an appearance at the bar of the
Ecuse, a matter of degradatiou. and a subjea of
reproach. It was to he recol:caed, that sew of
the most respeaed charnel is in the history of the
country, were often examined at that bar ; and,
therefore, he could cost see that the cause of
kaloust, in. the Scotch Judges, was at all war-
ranted. That learnt I body dated a variety
of reasons, which they conceived supported the
pretensions they had made. Kit with all revised for
that learned anti respeaable body, be conhd not
give them much coedit Me the cogency of their str-
gionents, the strength of their precedents, or the
ingenuity of their infe:ences. 'Their reasonings
convinced him of the liability of learned men to
'swore right, which might probably have existed
in distant periods of history, but which was solemnly
abrogated in pordern times- Thus, it was not
long since a lesonel person from Scotland (the
Lend A.:vet ate /lope). was heard di fendiag him-
self from a charge in the House of Commons. by
contendii,g. that the whole power of the Psi'',
Council of Sostland was vested ia his official
charades 1 alt,wutiL c4c M the Alts which kir
•.
•

lowa closest en the heels of the Union, was
to deprive that office of such extraordinary and
unlimited powers. The arguments of the Court of
Session, on this point, chewed such an ignorance of
the occurrences of modern periods, as applying to
their case, that it was fair to assume, a forti.ri, that
the fads of more remote times were not either well
understoo 4, or correCtly stated. With respeCt to the
opinion, that the attendanie of the Judges of the
Court of Session, on Appeals in the I louse, was a
desirable circumstance, it was not his wish to
throw any censure on the learned persons entrusted
with the jurisprudence of Scotland t but he could
not help remarking, that be had heard within the
walls of the House sufficient to induce him to de-
precate such an inclination. Indeed, he thought the
opinion of Mr. Boswell quite convincing I who,
when told on an Appeal Cause, in which he wa►
engaged, that the Court of Session was unanimous
in passing the decree, pointedly replied—" That
when that Court were divided in opinion, they deli-
berated but little'; hut when it happened that they
were unanimous, they deliberated not at all."—
With respea to the ingenious remark. that the pre-
cedents which denied d,r Scotch Judges the right,
referred only to the Lords Justiciary, and not to the
Court of Session, he should only answer, that as
the Lord Chief Justice Clerk was also a Member of
the Court of Session, he could not adm;t the posi-
tion. that if he was in either charther entitled to the
right, be ought to be denied, because he might be
summoned to attend with respeft to the outits of
another office. Nor even if he was summoned in
his capacity of Colonel of Volunteers (a larg4.)
The Noble Lord made a number of striking obser-
vations on the reasons presented on the part of thf
Scotch Judges, and concluded with expressing his
determination to oppose the motion of the Noble
Duke.

Lori MELVILLE deprecated the elaborate at-
tack made by the Noble Lord on the tespedable,
learned, and loyal body, which composed the Court
of Session. He considered it a churlish principle,
in any great kingdom, to deal illiberally with those
other countries. which, in their union, had given
up much of national pride and inuependent magni-
ficence. The cervices of the Learned Persons who
were in attendance on the service of the House, he
had occasion t.s know, when he held the important
office of Secretary far the Home D.-partment, at
a period when that part of the country was endan-
gered by revolutiolary cabals, and treasonable con.
spiracie,. He wished the Judges of every part of
the king-I.•m to be treated with every reverence
and respctt, because it tended to promote that love
of justice, which was the strongest fortress of the
subordination of society.
The Err' of LAUDERDALE and Lord KIN-
NAIRD replied to the Noble Viscount, and con-
tended, that the revolutio:lary dangers to which lie
alluded, were imaginary ; and were more the objed
of his own creation, for his own purposes, than
justified by any circumstances of the times.
Lords MOR lON and REDESDALE felt in-
clined to acquiesce in the opinion of the Noble
Duke, and should, therefore, support the Motion.
The Motion for admitting the Scotch Judges
within the body of the House was then put and ne-
gatived.
The House having resolved itself into a Commit.
tee; Lord HAWKESBURY rose to state his opi-
nion on the great and important measure which
had engaged the attention of their Lordships. He
should take credit to himself for having long d--
voted his attention to this subjeft ; and the Noble
Baron (Grenville) must have observed by the pa-
pers in the office which he held in his former Ad-
ministration, and had now the honour to hold, th:tt
this subjed had long engrossed the attention of the
Administration which preceded the last. The No-
ble Lord entered into a justification of that princi-
ple, which, though on the whole hostile to inno-
vation, yet was ready to corred a great evil; al-
ways confining the remedy to the extent of the
evil it went to remove, and not pushing it to ex-
treme. With Tweet to the first clause of the pre-
sent Bill, he was convinced that it was more ad-
visable to divide the Court of Session into two
chambers, because it fully answered the purposes
which the measure professed to have in view, and
was, at the same time, perfedly compatible with the
Articles of the Union.

Lord HAWK 1•:S li I'BY expressed himself friend-
ly to the introduCtion of Trial by Jury, in Civil
Cases, in Scotland ; but. at the same time, wished
the House to proceed with caution, and not to out-
step the necessity of the case ; or to revolt the pre-
judices of the people of Scotland. He also approved
of dividing the Court of Session into two Charn-
Lers, with the Lord President. and seven Lords, in
one Chamber, and the Lord JustioeClerk, and six
Lords, in the other t of whom /oar in each Court to
compose a Quorum; and each Court to be co-
extxasisre in powers. His Lordship concluded with
an Amendment to that effea.
Lord GRENVILLE said, that he should not
make any material ohjearon to the leaving out that
part of the Bill which respelled the Cour tot Review;
although he thought, that, without such a Court,
there was no check to the multitude of appeal:, nor
did he think that the ereCtion of such a Court was
any breach of the Treaty of Union. But what most
excited his surprise and astonishment, was that part
of the Noble Lord's speech, which respelled the
Trial by Jury is civil eases. He was surprised to
hear an Englishman say, that the Trial by Jury
was indefensible.

Lord HAWKESBETRY spoke to order, and
complained that the Noble Lord had misrepresented
his meaning. He had stated hisl,opinion to be, that
the Trial by Jury was an inestimable privilege ; hit
what he had stated was the difficulty of the unani-
mity of ripinion in Trials byJury.
Lord GRENVILLE proceeded, and remarked,
that although the Noble Lord agreed that Ti ial by
Jury should be allowed to continue in this country,
yet he had stated that he did not think it desirable
to introduce that alteration into Scotland a but if
this part of the Bill were rejeeted, And the others re-
tained, he must say that the Bill would, in sub-
stance, be reduced to a mere regulation of forms,
whilst it would be deprived of that essential pait,
which he was persuad-d would be prerettaive of
great satisfaction and benefit to the people of Scot-
land.

The LORD COANCELLOR enintiied with
the ciiiciort of his Na1):t• Ptistid (Hawke:bury) ss to

the division Court of Session into two cham-
bers, because ha did Conceive it would fully answer
the ()Nal required. With respect to the nuinber of
Scotch Appeals presented Li shat Tiouse. he con-
ceived the best remedy to consist is affixing large
cots to those which were presented on improper
and untenable grounds. 'rho House was aware
that until such a remedy was adopted, it wou'd be
impossible to check an evil which WAS qopported by
the ['attics who brought forward those appeals, of
well by the profit arising from the interest of money,
as the benefit of possession.
. _

Lord ELDO/si, in explanation, said, he fully co-
incided in the opinion with Lord Mansfield, that It
was impossible to introduce the Trial by Jury into
Scotland, generally.
. Lord GttENVILLE replied, that he saw nothing
in the Noble and Learned Lnrd'a observations, but
an opinion, without any solid argument.
Lord ERSKINE, in a most spirited and able
speech, supported the principle of the Bill in all its
branches, and thought it exceedingly strange, that
the inirodudion of Trial by Jury, generally, into
Scotland, should be a matter of such extreme ap-
prehension and caution, particularly as it was al-
ready partially known anJ valued in that country,
as the source of all the blessings of Liberty en-
joyed in this. He observed an Illustrious Per-
sonage, ass the other side of the House, (the
Duke of Cumberland), smile, and be must be bold
to sell him such a made was inconsistent with the
decorum with which that House was in the habit
of hearing every Noble Lord express his sentiments;
but it was particularly indecorous and indecent
in that Illustnosa Personage to smile at a panegyric
upon the Trial by Jury. Trial by Jury was the
means o( placing the present family upon the
Throne of Baptised. and Trial by Jury preserved oar
most gracious Sovereign, that Illustrious rerson's
father, throughout his long and gloraus reign.
Trial by Jury was the best security for the freedom
of that House; and he should never cease to feel and
know, that Trial by Jury enabled him to adJtess
their Lordships upon equal terms with the hignest
man amoeo them.
Lord REDESDALE coincided in opinion with
his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Eldon) that
the Bill in its present state would be a violation of
the ad of union, and totally unnecessary ; but if
such a measure should he found necessary, he
thought rt fin it ought to undergo the investigation
of a Conuni-sion of Inquiry.
Lord HOLLAND, in an able speech, answered
the arguments of the several Noble Lords on the other
side of the House ; and in conclusion expressed a
hope that the Noble and Learned Lord who spoke
last, atnd who had acknowledged that he had been
often induced to change his opinion, upon various
subjects, had now, from convidion, changed that
prejudice and opinion, lie had some time sia.ce enter-
tained, with resped to one-fourth of His Majesty's
subjects, he meant the Roman Catholics. An opi-
nion and prejudice most disgraceful to this country,
in the eyes of every enlightened n ithm on tJeGlobe.
Lord MELVILLE entered at lugs into the na-
ture and objed of the proposed change. He did
not see the benefits which the Noble Baron was so
sanguine as to expell limn the measure. It was, in
his mind, an innovation on that system of jurispru-
dence, which the Scotch Nation, at the period of
the Revolution, were so anxious to preserve and
perpetuate. But he acquiesced in the proposition
of the Noble Baron (Hawkesbury) with respell to
making it a measure of temporary experiment, un-
til a Commission was appointed for the purpose of
fully ascertaining the general grounds of the mea-
sure, and the general feeling of the nation to whom
it peculiarly related.
Lord KINNAIRD could not contemplate, with-
out surprise, the condo& of the Noble Lords, rela-
tive to this Measure. They had taken advantage
of the late Ministerial Changes, totally to rew-
model the objet and detail of the system so abty
proposed by his Noble Ft iend, and so long desired
by Scotland. It was condud which went to mock
the expedations of the people of Scotland, and to
cheat them of their hopes.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE rose to oppose
the intention of the Noble Lords, in trying to take
an advantage of the House, and in proposing to a
Committee, in the form of an amendment, a mea-
sure altogether new in its principles. Such condo('
was a violation of the privileges, and a complete
disregard of the opinion of the people; that opinion
which his NAL! Friend, who fist intim:laced the
measure, had used every means fully to acquire and
understand. The Noble Viscount( Melville) had talk-
ed of innovations. Every remedy for an existing evil,
was, throughout the whole period of his Administra-
tion For that country, considered by him as an evil.
But was it a measure to promote a system of job.
bing and of favouritism, it would have folly a:-
corded with his views. He thought the Noble
Lords ought to be ashamed of attempting to pass
such ,a juggle on the House.
Lord AUCKLAND wished to have the opinion
of the Scotch Judges on the proposed Alteration.
On the suggestion of the LORD CHANCEL-
LOR, the CiAlrman reported ',ingress, and asked
leave to sit again ran Monday.
Adj at HALF-PAS I TWO until Mon-
day next.

i
i