The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1821-06-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

nom OF LORDS, Moa*av, Juin 4.
THE GRAMPOUND DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.

Mr. Hamden aad oiler Member, of the Home of Cosa-
.lolllll brongbt •p the Grampouad Disf►anchisement BM,
with • Message that that Home had agreed t• the amend-
meats of t►eir Lardships.—Laid ow tie table.

THE SLAVE TRADE.
Lord CALTHORPE waved that certain mere which
were laid is. their Lew&kiwi table, relative to the Mare
Trade, should be pwinted.—Ordered.
COURTS OF LAW (IRELAND) REGULATION OF
FEES BILL.
Vi-count SIDMOUTH unwed, that the Order of
the Dry for the second reading of this 8.11 should
be read, which bring done, the Noble Viscount
rose and said, that the intention of the Bill was
to regulate and to correct uhuses which had crept
into the Law Courts of Ireland lw the exaction
of fees. Some time hack the nitration of the
other House of Parliament had been drawn
to the subject, and an humble address pre-
sented by them to his Majesty, praying that
he would be graciously pleased to have a Coin.
miss appointed to inquire into the abuses,
which was accordingly greeted. It was at that
iitne doubted by some whether it was twee-awry to
appoint Cutnamisesiosiere to examiwe into the abuses
of the Courts of Law iii 5(4,166141, but as to Ire-
land the necessity of the inquiry was obvious to
every person, and never was doubted. The Com-
missioners were appointed, rad they made a Re.
port recommending the abolition of lees its the
Courts of King's Bench; Cialmou Pleas, and the
law side of the Court of Exchequer, in Ireland ;
and that the officets of the Courts should be !paid
by [United salaries. The Report was approved of
by the whole of the Judges of the Caaurts, wish the
exception of one. It was proposed to take the
average of the fees received by the tinkers for seven
years, and to expunge from them all unjust fees
received, and then strike the salaries according to
the just fees that remained. Another measure was
recommended by the Coininjosi tttt ers, that two offi-
cers should be appointed for the purpose of taxing
the coats of the three Courts. instead of the WWl-
utr they were now taxed, as the expense of the pre-
sent mode of taxing them often amounted to more
than the costs themselves. The mean% of !Drawl&
. is% for the salaries of the officers was intended to be
obtained by an additional duty on stamp., which
was to be paid by the suitors, which would he less
burdensome on them thou the t MOUS fees that
they had been in the habit of paying. end at the
same time the public at large would Out be in-
jured. as they would not have an additional shil-
ling to pry. He concluded by moving, that the
Bill should be then read a second time.
The Earl of Dueouestautte said, as he hail so
lately troubled their Lordships on this subject, it
was not his intention ou this occasion to occupy
much of their time. It was terideut to him that it
bad beef' the intention to have allowed this Bill to
puss into a law without may observation being
made on it, if lie had not inteifered iii the first its-
stance; be done so on uccount of the absence of the
Noble and Learned Loral (Redesdale). who had tilled
the high office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland with
so much credit to biinselland to the great satisfaction
of the people of that country, and who must have
been well informed on the subject, but it appeared
that the Noble and Learned L'.rd declined starrier-
log. The Reports of the Learned Judges which he
had moved for had not been more than half an hour
on their Lordships' table, and it was impossible that
they could be in immersion of their contents. He
would therefore beg it ass favour of the Noble Se.
cretrary for the Howe Dep ariment. that lie would
pootpotie his motion fur the second reading of the
11111 fur three or four days, to give their Lordships
ass opportunity so looksitito ife Reports. He would
ask would the Noble Viscount venture to say that
he had himself read the Reports ? if he could lint
say so, would lie recommend the administration of
Jitatice in Ireland to be altered from what it was
its England Oil the mere suggestions of others ? If
there improper proceedings had taken pluce in the
Courts in Ireland, was nut the Noble Viscount
answerable for not having found them out before,
they being under the control of his department ?
The meanie% of the Bill *as to grant pensions to
the amount of 15,000/. a year to officers of the
Courts who done duty, sod double the aintsunt to
those who done no duly, He could not see the iir.
reitaity of altering the law from what it hail so kin;
been. fur the purpose of grunting pentium's, If
petilllolllll were necessary, they ought to tiring in
a bill for the purpose, and not to change the state
of Irelitud as they found her at the Union.
The finances of Ireland were not us guild now as ut
thee time, and her deficit was obliged to be paid by
this country, They had the satisfaction of known%

. Irby.
manot unsuinumi
Or the Judges, that the suhatitoting of sal* pia to
t lieelecers fee tees, as turfed by the Noble V Wee nt,
weitild rrad the Iteport of the Learned ledges
elt the apart of Exchequer on the subject, which
would !ie mooch better than soy a.iswer be Could
give to his assertion, that after much consideration
they had come taste liberal construction that if sa-
laries were adopted they ought to be general in all
the Courts. The Noble Earl observed. the Coat-
niiiisioners did pot like to interfere with the Lord
Chancellor, for although they had fixed • certain
rate of fees for his Court, they reported that he
and the Master of the Rolls aright to have the
power of altering that rate; but the Judgeoof the
-Court of F.zebequer Weft titaiiidicin istAonsiel that
fees properly regulated were We hest mode'tif paying
the officersof the Coati. Then they did not ogreewith
the Noble Viscount ; be had great respect for him,
but he had more respect fur the opinion of the Law •
Judges on law questions. He was told that the
proposal of making an additional duty on stamp.
was not levying an additional or a new tax ; cer-
tainly not its the way the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer proposed a new tax ; for here he first looked
out where the sum to be rai.ed was to be paid, and
afterwards protnwes to key the tax. He contended
it went to increase the taxation of Ireland, and of
telling her they had dune so In-cause they could
not introit the Judges iii that country 1611 they did
the Judges of this. He put it to the consideration
of the Noble Viscount whether it was prudent its
him to press the Bill to a second reading that night,
and whether it would not be more advieble to give
the Petitioners against the Bill an opportunity to
he heard by Cocainel at their Lordships' bar. Per-
haps his beet plait would be to auk the Noble Se-
cretary before he sat down, whether he was deter-
mined to press the second reading that slight ?
Viscount Stlosiouru—" It certainly is my de-
termination."

The Earl of Doxountinoix—" Then I consider
it my duty to move, as au amendment, that the Bill
shall be read a second time this day Six months."
Lord REDESDALE said 1w could hot agree to
Counsel being heard at the bar. As to the Judges,
he woe of opinion they could not make an inquiry.
into the fees of their respective Courts without the
subject was properly brought. before theirs. As to
substituting silence; to officers fur fee., he was afraid
it would cause a very careless perform:wee of the
duties of the lower class of officers. As to the op.
pointing of only two taxing officers for all the
Coon*, he did not approve of it, for even if they
mild be effectual officers, he doubted whether I or-
bits would be found to accept theta that were
capable; when be considered they were to be pre.
visited from following any other avocation, and d..;
priwed by their constant atteudauce in town of what
all lawyers were fond of, the benefit of the country
in the long vacation. That there had been abuses
in the exaction of fees there could be no doubt of,
and that also the subject required the attention
of Parliament ; at the same time he thought many
of the provisions of the Bill had passed through
the other Huuee of Parliament without due con-
sideration, for if it passed into a law as it now
stood, many of the officers of the Courts, who lead
purchased their situation. with the expectation that
they might resell, would be injured, fur even if they
were to dispose of them after p:irt of their emolu-
ments were taken from them they must tell so dos-
advantage. The great extension of fees had been
to what were called sinecure offices, the duties of
which were performed by deputy, the acting matt
took the fee for his principal, and exacted a similar
one for himself. lie, however, could see no objec-
tion to the Bill being then read a second time, as
they would have an opportunity of discussing the
merits of the clauses in Committee.

The Earl of LimiuticB supported the Bill. He
denied that he bad any personal interest iss forward.
tog the measure, he held uo office in any of the
Courts, and ►f it was • job for the beaelit of per-
sons holding sinecure offices, it was a most extra-
ordinary one, when he cousidered that it went to
reduce their emoluments. The reason why the
measure was nut extended to the Court of Chau-
cery war, because the same abuses as to the ex.
action of fees were not found there. The Judges
of the Court of King's Bench approved of the
Report of the Comotiseithiers, recommending sa-
laries to be paid to the officers instead of tees.
As to the Report of the Judges of the Court
of Exchequer, which had been relied so much
on by his Noble Friend (the Earl of Domnigh-
more), he would say that lie could not place so
much confidence in it, when he recollected that
a question arose in that Court, whether certato
fees belonged to the Crown or to the Chief . Baron ;
during the time the question was litigating, the fees
were impounded, and after the question was de.
coded, it was found that atter paying the desks for
the duties of the Court, that there remained ti sur.
plus of 48,0001. It oleo appeared that the amount
of hers paid to the Chief Baron for the years 1812,
1813. and 1814. amounted to 3,1381. and a traction :
fur those reasons he would vote fur the bid being
the,, read a second time.

The Loan CHANCSLLOR was of opinion there
nun nn ground to postpone the second reading of
the Bill. He thought in some cases that officer.
of Courts of Justice might be better paid by fixed
salaries thin' by fees ; but there were a certain class
of officers which he was convinced it would be bet-
ter that they should be paid by fern, fur instance,
those who were confined to climber bunnies., fOr he
doubted whether there would be the name diligence
if they were paid by salaries,. •t the same time
he win• of opinion the quantum of fees cog& to be
settled by Act of Parliumtut. A. to the appoint-
ing of only two taxing officers to the ♦hole of the
Law Court. in Ireland, he must tnke the opinion
of the Noble and Learned Lord (tArd Redesdale),
that they would not be efficient. If the ',repast-
lion wins for sppointing two taxing officers for all

Strangers were ordered to withdraw. but thei►
Lordships did not divide.
The B►ll was read a second time. and on the mo-
tion of N'itouiit
SIDatOUTH, was ordered to be COM_
milted on Friday next.
On the motion of Viscount Stosiot3Tll. the
Conrt of Chancery (Ireland) Regulation fidt ass
read • second time and ordered to be committed
on Foiday next.
The Earl of DaRSILET postponed his motion
relative to the supply of stationery to the public
offices in Ireland. at the request of Viscount Sid,
month, from to-morrow to Wednesday the 13th of
June.

Adjourned at Half-past Seven o'Clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, M AAAAA , Just 4.

A permit from the office of Chief Secretary few Ireland
presented en account of she amoistil of duties of Claiborne
received at lb* several purls its Ireland.
tier I. COFFIN brought np the Report of the Metropolis
Gas Light Bill.—The amendments were agreed to, and the
Bill ordered to be eugroased.
General GASCOYNE presented • Piiiitioo from certain
Merchant/ of Liverpool trading to Canada, complaining of
the Timber Duties Bell. He also presented a Petition burn
certain Masters and Juisrueyeacn kopemakers of the same
purl, complaining of the use of macbiuery in rope-maltiot,
by which they orsoctived themselves to be snuck injured, and
praying that • tax may be laid We the machinery as eat •
ptuyad proportioned to the duties of the ouisher of home*
to which the power of the vaachoweiy is equalled.
The wine Hon. Member likewise presented a Petition
front the Mayor and Iskainitela of Liverpool, agaiest the
Extra Post Bill.
These Petitions were estrendly ordered to be printed.
Mr. T. WILSON pemented a Petition from the Rieke"
of London and Westseinekr, agaismit the Forgery Pintials
~Si dlifigatiost BIN. They chiefly eeropleined of the dis-
tinction made is she Bill, between forgeries on the Bask of
England and those es private beakers. in preseutielt it akt
Hon. Member stated, that the Petilionans bad ne with tto
legislate, or to throw say impediment in the way of any ins-
provemeat or windificaticie of the law respeeting forgery, bast
merely to represeat in what way th.:ir interest would be
sleeted by the Ball before she Hauer.
After • few words from Mr. TRAILER, *kith we could nut
hem—

Mr. F. BUXTON reed a letter from • Banker who had
signed the retake', and who observed, that be had not seiz-
ed his name in order that the punishment of death might be
geolintied, hot merely that all basking eldahlt‘hatenses
whether public or private, unfit he put on the same
holing,
Mr. DENT protested against soy distigetio• between the
Reek of England and private bankers, in this ease; soil was
at a loss to know, the (eraser punishment uutwithstanding
its severity Levies failed to shock the COVIIIIirIiOI2 of the
Cliabeikellf it was to be slopped by lesersing the punishment.
Mr. DAVI& said, he world oppose the Bill io every
stage, being decidedly of opiaion art it would tend to m-
acros, forgery.
air. RICARDO said, that if soy distiaetina were made,
the public ought to have the hellcat of it. He could see ow
real diatiortion, but if there were say, the claim of the
Bank of England was certainly strosiger lbws that of private
beakers, as their notes ware is se meek mere gaseral circu-
lation.
The question being pot for the Petition being read,
Mr. PEARSE added a few words, set sedible in the caller,.
Ms. ELLICE regretted that the Hun. Mover had not
allured the Bill to pass in its original shape; the sante
punishment being made applicable to all forgeries, except
perhaps those of wills.
After a few words from Mr. DENT, the Petitioo was or.
dered to be printed.
WOOL TRADE.
Mr. T. WILSON promoted a Petition from certain 'Mee-
shouts of the City of London, agaiest a Bill allowing the
exportation of sheep, whereby they apprehended that cou-
siderable injury would be done to the woollen trade of this
country.

Mr. H. DAVIS said, there were some sorts of wool fiat
could only he obtaioed itt England, each as the Wog wool,
and that codearouis were making to introduce it iota
France and Germany.
Mr. LUSDI NGTON said, he guild set thr fears of the
Hue. Member at rest, fur the Bill applied only to the South-
down sheep.
The Petition wet ordered to be printed.
Mr. 11. DAVIS-presented • Petitiou from the Bankers of
Bristol against die Forgery Punishment Mitigation Bill.

POOR LAWS.

Lord WALPOLE presented; Petition from the Inhabi-
tants of Kokg's Lynn, against the Poor Laws Anaitadaneut
Hdl.

I.ENNARD presented • Petition from twenty-four
Paupers of the TUIVII of Ipswich, against the Pour lowa
thineitierseut Bull. It stated at considerable lesegtb the
Itektrellece which the Petitioners eouctived to be is•ulved iu
the Bill. The lion. limber, urn presenting the Petition,
reawouraled with .considerable earuestness against the tuu
common practice of jiidstog of the ge.irral habit., Elkin's,.
lion, awl conduct of the pour of this country, from a few
extreme eases.
Sir I. COFFIN said, there was no *wintry i• the world
ao happy or no free front misery as this.
nese Prittioss were ordered to he Prieged•

MR. OWEN'S PLAN.
Lord A. HAMILTON restated • Petition from the
Comity of Lanark, praying the Howe to take into its most
!mous eonaideratosu a plan proposed by Mr. Owen-for pr-
ing permanent power of production to the lower ci .
The Petition was styled by forty-owe laisdholdires, forhiclimt
age Peer, one son of a Peer, Are Ilassets,
hooka., of the Prate, the rosjormy of law ICler4y, the l'ritt•
Opal sod Aire Prufswansrs of the Vinyersity of telasitow, a:A
the chief Magistracy at 41 the lowa. In the county.
Mr. MAXWELL eoppoeted the Petkiew at some length,
sad only merited that Ilia powers wee. se week and made
quote to du Jamie. to the comae which bps yes thus called
stia to advocate
Ste W. DE CRESPIGNY ..J, he tsk epayiaced that

\

•
re• •••*
0/ •
F -

A avadieralion of
therefoci, Howlett that
investiptod, sad, at least,
‘' sad practicable,
for offestiag that

Amos se the ee,b11212-
visited. The arumber
tboussed, amid they
sod 'be
%). 11.1111i•od of
00040 4141priten-

or even
1 of such
Wier etudes-
-11ft051271111* iniedition
%•aissusimilia 1 evi Ise
an *nog wholly
in pontobieg sod
in favour of Mr.
printed.
front Manche".
, ; sad also a Pe..
Spoiled Stamps Bill.
rioted.
intention of the
Spoiled Stamps

is question was
it was not iti-

Mr. Won. Henry
, preying for the
inio the applwa.
Service, in which he
the p►eservatwu of

lives were lost in the

awasping of the
introduction of this'
considerable advantage.
se not prepared to ray
might at be useful,

the Hon. Cm-
reacts far the
surprising if these
not one should
a, who were the
the assistance of
on the coast, and
as any men. He
preservers if they
foe if • ship woe
take to his life
lento her fate,
to preserve the
ordered to be
returns were ordered
made i■ the several
r a certain number
goods returned to the

was ordered of
collection of the
their respective
from the Clior .Is.
. Great Boston, io
I insedment Bill. Also
for the repeal of 6U
tell to the stamp duty
rioted.

Baakruptey Laeis
and pasecti.
lllarval, for $ more
pat to him a shunt
thie—" Whether
this country, was
, under the provi-
was entitled to the
saki, he was not at
to the question po-
tted hitherto arisen

ditieuhy, however,
„e Natives of the laniata
sobjecir. bet a■ the subjects
the Cluvemmcut of

g power.
..eading oa the subject eon-
easaiderable importance, as
of these islands ass
their eons pitiatis
o grievaoces, sad
woald be afraid to
whether they were or
Alien Act.

Aid, whatever tit
. the smallest danger,
mmiast parties comilig
Member bad• described.

Howourabte Under.
her any instructions
t►is country to the
Dutch Colonies at
prevent the to.
permitted by the

to Mooed/ tor not
tiro gallant officer.
iolormation be re-

that in rising to
for mitigating
it his duty to
condition in which
alterations had
and amendments
as determination
for the second
,had adopted a
resolution, that
tinihment of death
apprehended,
the reverity of
ipunny of the
ight he drawn
as well as the
; but, likA all
liable to be dis.
had goo", it
principle of the
aim principle did
sanctioned by the
recotemendatitin of
.a the experiment had
defrauding the revenue,
ital punishment
Avowed purpose of
Instance of bleaching
mentioned, a
with SkirCeSS.-•-•
nesimilar in nature to
the aMnce to
Sinall as
"formation of oar
of congratulation

had been repralrd
Majetty'i •►rign than
VI. This was a wood

prison •but . , punishment .
p I .. necessary
10 elser—for according to the Edict of Nantz, that
Monarcn, If* .certainly could not be icetisetLe
ishetiheuishateat
any womanish
of death, because it was found ineffectual.—(Hear,
hear.) —Great and predominant as was the detesta-
ble spirit of bigotry at that period in Front*,
against Protestants, still Frenchmen could not be
found to become the instruments of his atrocities..
He couldscarcely appeal to a stronger illustration of
his theory. A better government would be a w
example. This was the result of the most saisil,
cious tyranny, and it proved to demonstration, Om .
as you render a punishment severe, in the seise
proportion do you render it impotent.—(Hear./
—Any man who had turned his attention to the,
grounds of legislation, must know that moral priu.
ciples were not, like mathematical theories, tug..
versally true ; they were maxims of human ease
duct; and to be considered in relation to these
wonderful verities, and not to be disposed of like
the solitary abstractions of mere speculative science.
Thns much fur the principle of the measure. He.
regretted the necessity of the exceptions he had
introduced, because he was convinced that the
universal principle might be adopted ; but it was
not for him to despise or disregard the opinions of
others. It was sufficient for his present purpose, in
bringing forward that great reformatory measure,
to confine himself to the case of forgery, and if be
should be so fortunate as to succeed in that in.
stance, to chew the House and the country that
the principle, tried on a limited scale, was
quite practicable on a more extended one. The
paper of the Bank of England was the only ex•
ception in the original Bill. The fact of the
reluctance to prosecute was generally admitted ;
it was a moral principle, checked or favoured by
all the passions of our nature, and was applicable
to every variety of crime. In the case of a barba-
rous murder, there was no man scarcely who would
be deturred from prosecutiug ; while in a petty
theft, to which the saute punishment was attached,
no humane man would come forward. These were
the extreme points of the case, all the intermediate'
space was filled up with all the varieties of
legiala-
lion. When lie excepted the Bank of Eugland
piper, it was not fur the sake of the Bank, but
the sake of the public. It passed through a variety
of hands, the poorest and lowest in the community,
and in most instances without the power or time
to examine it. But there was no analogy between
that and the crime of private'forgery. Private forgery
poly affected those who were imniediately parties.—
Private negotiable securities never passed through
poor hands, but only amongst those who were profes-
sionally trained to the greatest acuteness.—(/leer,
.dear./--'('he same priuciple was applicable,
although not in the same degree, to the notes of
private bankers, and. they: were omitted in the
original Bill, merely en, the ground of the unfre-
quency of the offence. These were all the conces-
sions he could make ; after the respectable majo-
rity that had sanctioned the measure, be could not,
without relinquishing the principle, go further. A
Petition had been presented from a body of per-
sons, for whom individually and collectively he en.
tertained the highest respect, but he denied that
Petition contained uuy thing hostile to his
princi-
ple. It merely prayed that the same punishment
might be affixed to private and public forgery, and
this was in fact praying for what from his soul he
wished he could do, abolish the punishment of
death altogether. It had been publicly stated that
the punishment of death was inadequate to the
'prevention of forgery. They must have been ac-
quainted with the fact, and out of their own
mouths he drew an argument in favour of his priu-
ciple, for their very silence on this point proved the
impossibility of contradicting it. The next excep- ,
tion was that of se will.,' and this he felt reluct-
r antly obliged to concede. The case of wills had
one striking peculiarity, that the poincipal, the
,
best, almost the only witness to prove the forgery,
can never be produced ; the very commission of
the crime implied the impossibility of, his proving
the Tact. He did not know what comic prOperties
that observation possessed, to excite the smiles of
the Noble Marquis (Londonderry) and the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman (the Attorney-General).
The Marquis of Lott DONDERaY denied his hav-
ing smiled at the observation.
Sir JAHNS MACKINTOSH resumed. Wills and
marriage registers might come within the excep-
tions. These amendments were all such as should
reconcile his opponents, and if he could satisfy the
friends of the measure, his object' would be gained.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then proceeded
to remark on the uttering of forged notes, which
he said, in consequence of the preliminary &urea
tion with which the Bank was invested, and the seve-
rity of the punishment, was always surrounded with
compassion, although he was by no rumps convinced
of the total inefficacy of herd labour, as many suppos-
ed. he thought that imprisonment and bard labour
would answer all the purposes of terror. It was
very easy to render it sufficiently terrible ; the
merest tyrant could do it by increasing the labour
and'abstinence; no punishment could, in his opi-
nion, be more effectual. The law-giver must be
barren in invention, and the Statesman deficientiu
all the elements of the art he professes, who could
not render this punishment at least sufficiently ter-
rible. These were all the amendments he meant
to propose, should the Bill be so fortunate ast to
receive the third reading.—(Cheers.)
The ATTONNEY•GILNERAL said. that notwithe
Mending the anticipations of his Hou. and Learned
Friend, the difficulties, at least in his mind, of im-
proving the law by the present measure, were ra-
ther strengthened than removed, said it now seem-
ed to him. that the very supporters of the measure:
had abandoned the principle ; and notwithstandimg.
the ingenuity of his Hon.. and' Learned Friend, tut
appeared to him that the amendinents which WC
been introduced proved that the principle was in.
supportable...l-(, iVo, wo !" from the ttppositias.).
—He should ask, then, why not extend the excels.'
Lions to bills of exchange as well as promissory
notes, or to the various stock., govermaeut and
others, to deeds or bends, and the power of &Bor.
Dry They had equal circulation, and required

lie thoughlkt ibreibil of
for mitigating the pus
t of
called a Bill for palmist out
exceptionsahould be taken. The
present, was found available to
all punishment, timely, the pet?
( Hear.)—W herever.the circusw
sauces of the case called for mitigation of pages'
silent it was always extended. In the essa.At-
burglary, for instance, oue of as common
rence and full as enormous as forgery, if a boar.
put his hand in through a pane of glass, and stole
a watch, although death was the punishment
allotted, yet it was left to the discretion of the
Executive Government to extend mercy, and ex-
perience had proved that the system worked
Hear, hear !" from the Oppesitionl—
and with respect to terror, he knew nothing of the
woikinga of the human mind, if a man would not
be more deterred from the commission of a crime,
knowing that imprisonment awaited it, superadded
to the probability of death, than if he were certain
that imprisonment only were the extent of the pit.
nishment. The introduction of imprisonment and
hard labour would, in his opinion, be a most
obnoxious measure; it would be erecting a hostile
in every county in Englund..—(Hear, hear.)—He
should not go into details; he objected to the prin-
ciple of the Bill, and sbcmuld therefore move that it
be read a third time this day six months..
Mr. DENMAN said, if lie failed of being con-
vinced by the ipgeriious speech of his Hon. and
Learned Friend. (the Attorney-General), it did nut
proceed from inattention to the arguments on both
sides of the question, for oo man could have
more anxiously considered that great and important
question • as his Hon. and Learned Friend (Sir
James Mackintosh) knew, to his cost, for lie had
given him no small trouble in Ilia inquiries. This,
however, he felt it his duty to do, and he could
now say with a clear conscience that all his doubts
were fully removed, and if they were not, nothing
could induce them to Wpport the measure.--(Hear.)
When the Attorney-General said here was a con-

cession and there' was an. exception, he (Mr. D.)
should say an the part of his Hon. and Learned
Friend, as well as ou his own, that they abandoned-
nothing, that if they could get more they should
be glad to take it, but they would be grateful for
the Bill even in this mutilated condition.— ( Hear,
hear.)—The question was, did the punishment of
death prevent crime ? The opponents of the mea-
sure contended that it did, by means of terror.
He and those who. thought with him contended,
that it was rendered nugatory by reason of the
terror of the prosecutors: The Attorney-General
had alluded to the case of a boy stealing a watch,
and endeavoured to draw en analogy between
the crime of burglary and forgery. But it ap-
peared to him there was no similarity what-
ever, no more than there was between the boy
who stole a watch from a window, and the mid-
night robber, who plundered a family of the accu-
mulated industry of years. They were called, by
one of those technical absurdities of the law, the
seine crime. It might be said Unit the disclosing
of the removal of the punishment of death would
be attended with evil consequences, but he thought
It was well the truth should be known ; truth was
the only principle upon which an enlightened legis.
lature should proceed, and the people should not be
frightened by the bugbear of capital punishment.
He diffeted widely from those who thought that
transportation was not a sufficient punishment for
private forgery. The persons who committed that
offence were not generally in the lower classes of
life; they bad their family and connexions about
them, and banishment for life from their country
was a most grievous punishment. This was not
peculiarly a lawyer's question. They had already
heard the speech of one of the first authorities in the
House upon it (Mr. Buxton), a Gentleman who had
devoted to it his time, his experience, and talents,
and he was happy to have an opportunity of ex-
pressing his gratitude for the noble effort he had
made. Never did he hear more of wisdom, more
of benevolence, more of practical good—(itae,
hear)—never did he witness the spirit of Chris-
tianity so powerfully displayed in • public assem-
bly—never did he see religion applied to nobler
purposes, not introduced for the purpose of !pro-
ducing discord amongst men, or becoming the
ready instrument of slander; nut for the purpose
of puffing off its own pharisaical purity, but in the
words of the Scripture, with the intention of doing
justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly with
the common Father of all mankind.—(Load and
continued eheeriag.)
Mr. DENT opposed the Bill.
Mr. Wilmot. thought that the measure would
have been objectionable if it had not given a dis-
cretion as to the term of imprisonment. As to the
state of the law at present, it seemed to be allowed
on all sides that the punishment of transportation
was in fact no punishment at all; it was practically
inoperative ; and although be was not prepared to
say that the present measure was free f-oni difficul-
. tics, yet he was content to take it, as it was one
which did tiot oppose the common law of the land.
He hoped by the operation of the law far a dimi-
nution of crime frocs a two-fold source—namely,
by the certainty of punishment, and the ameliora-
tion of the character of the offender.
Mr. MARRTATT considered that it would be to
the last degree injurious to place the notes of the
Bank of England in • different situation from all
other negotiable securities, and he considered that
the Batik paper was that which of all others was
least entitled to be so protected. He considered
the prosperity of our commerce as depending on
our credit, and as the exception in the Bill was
also a complete inversion of all the principles ref jus-
tice, he should oppose its being read a third ti ine.
A Member, whose name we could not learn, op-
posed the Bill, as he did not see the necessity of
the measure, as the small notes in which almost
all the forgeries took place, were now about to
be taken nut of circulation.
Mr. J. SMITH thought that the severity of the
punishment had been the cause of the increase of
crime, by preventing the punishment taking place,
but he did not know why the Bank of Englund
should be better protected than any other ceanmer.
cial body, though he believed that the punish-
ment of death was no preventative of forgery.
He would almost go the length of saying
that if it were a protection to the Book of
England, they deserved it less than any other
body. Their notes were of worse execution

• ,

ti
.1

.7

~'

than most country banks, and were in eoneapiesee a, will
more easily forged, though be hoped *Doi to see crime
Sn
improvement in that re t. It was allowed thee-
that forjrries on country Tanks-04k place with P
much less frequency than on the Bank of England,
and the reason certainly was the superior execution
of their votes. Trusting that his Hon. and Learned
Friend would make one or two verbal alterations
which he would have the. honour to suggest, the
measure should receive his most cordial support. '
Mr. PEIRSE spoke in so low a tone of voice that
he was very imperfectly heard in the gallery. Ile
defended the conduct of the Bank of England from
the calumnies which had been circulated against
them, both in that House and in other pierces. He
thought the Bill ought to distinguish between the
seller of the forged notes and the wretched pur.
chaser or utterer, and lie would take the liberty
in tle Committee to proposes clause to that effect.
The small notes bring about to be withdrawn
from the circulation, would, he hoped, diminish the
crime of forgery ; but whether other crimes might
not arise out of the alteration, was more than he:
could say. Coining and robbery might, lie thought,.
be expected to increase.

-

Mr. MILLS Blade some observations ow the Bill
which were inaudible in the gallery. He did not
think himself competent to steak on the general
principle of the Bill, but he considered the present
as a very inauspicious moment for bringing it in.—
The parties who were concerued iii forgeries would
not be idle, but exert themselves to disseminate
the greatest number possible before any of the
enactments could be put in force.
Mr. LOCKHART opposed the .Bill. By the ex-
ceptions introduced, bills of exchange and bunkers,
cheques were the only negotiable securities lett to
the operation of the Bill, so that the bankers of the
metropolis would be the sufferers. It was ■ mis-
take of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to sop-
pose, that because in their Petition presented that
night they had not in le►tism prayed fur the conti-
nuance of the punishment of death, their opposi-
tion went only to the exceptions, and not to the
principle of his measure ; but es they wished to be
on the same footing as the Bank of England, it
was evident they were opposed to his principle.
Mr. Baxitro agreed with the Hon. Member
(Mr. Smith) that the expense and trouble of pro-
secutions deterred many persons from instituting
them. But from whatever cause it might he, we
had more forgeries than all the rest of the civilised
world put together. if that were so, and he be-
lieved it wus the case, there must be something in
the state of the law to occasion it. In Holland, where
every thing relating to commerce was studied with►
peculiar care, forgery was not punished oitheletith.
In Hambargh forgery was not punished with death.
By the French criminal code forgery was not pu-
nished with death, and he believed he could safely
maert that the amount of that species of crime was
there comparatively insiguiticant ; therefore, there
waa but little reason to look for that inundation of
forgery which some Hon. Gentlemen seemed to
expect. What was the state of punishment at
present ? Transportation, which am scarcely any
punishment at all, or death, 'thirds to, persous in
very desperate circumstances was not likely to
deter from the crime. Desperate persons were, he
believed, often not averse from risking their
lives fo► a chalice of bettering their fortunes.
If the minds of those men could be dived into, it
would, lie thought, be formd that they, looked upon
tan years confinement to hard labour as a thing not
to be endured, whilst the risk of their lives would
sot be regarded. He was perfectly convinced,
therefore, that the punishment would be a more
effective punishment, mad whatever exceptions there
night be in the Bill, lie should mill vote for it,
because, as far as it went, it was a certain good.
Mr. DART DAVIS opposed the BIN.
Mr. T. WILSON said, the Petition which had
been presented from the Bankers of London, hum-
bly submitted that if the Bank were willing to ,
omit the clause' in► their favour,. the Petitioneto
would not object to the measure ; but they felt that
they were entitled to the same protection for bins,
of exchange and checks as for any other negotiable
security. With respect to the measure itself,
he would have recommended to the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman to have waited to, see what al.;
feet the cessation of the I f. and 2!. notes would have
on the crime of forgery. One reason which the Hon.
and Learned Gentlemau gave for eseepting Bank
notes was, because they were a species of Govern-
ment security ; but, he wookl ask him, were not
exchequer bills a Government security also ?
The leniency of punishment in Holland had
been adverted to. There the criminal was em-
ployed in chopping logs of wood, and if ha failed
in doing the work which was peeseribed, he
was placed in a pool of water, fed by a running
stream, and obliged, by pumping incessantly, to
prevent the water rising so far as to suffocate him.
That, he thought, the Hon. Gentleman would hardly
wish to see introduced in this country.
Mr. Haasoao said, the exceptions, it was well
known, were introduced as a measure of cape.
dieeicy, to insure the passing of the Bill. Heikki:mid
give hie cordial support to the Bill, always protest-
ing against the exceptions which had been intro.
duerd.

Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) thought the House
was imperatively called on to adopt this Bill, by
the 'loather of Petitions in its favour from those
classes out of which the Juries in criminal cases
were chiefly formed. Another strong argument in
its favour was, that the dissolute wretches who coin-
milted forgery, if called upon to say whether they
would prefer the continuation of the law in its pre-
sent state, with all the chances of escape that 110 W
existed, or the alteration of the penalty from death
so,iinprisonment and hard labour, with a certaitaay
of its being inflicted in case of conviction, would
prefer the enuctmeut of death accompanied
with the numerous existing chances of escape.
Those who argued against the Bill on the ground
of the inconsistency of the exception., acted un-
fairly ; why did they not propose to expunge them ?
hear.)—He was sure the Hon. Mover
would rather that the Bill should pass without
them.—(Hear, Rea;.)—Persons who prosecuted to
conviction for forgery at present, were pointed out
as objects of horror. He would cite above a hun-
dred instances in which such prosecutors had re-
pented ever afterwards. A strong proof that the
mitigation of the puoishment could not have the
effect of Coeteicsing the crease, was observable with
reelect to the forgery of wills. In Ireland to forge

was Nat a capitol irloaAand yet it liaa a
very rarely heard of ni that country. lie
i►e should vote ft): the third reading of this

The House then tlividud
Ayes lll
Noes ..". • •

Majority for the thivrt •
031.0112:remsdmisriort-ore found Sir Wlisiprails.
TOSH prowling; some verbal amendments, wiiacT
were agreed to..
Mr. Caters then rose and moved, that the words
4. or any promissory note,. bill of exeliroge, or draft
payable to order. drawn by, OpOo, or lii ►avppr 9r .
any banker or hankers," be inserted in the clause
of exceptions.
Mr. BARING said, the amendment proposed .by
the Hon. Gentleman, would effectually cover es/2y
forgery in which private banker', were at all luta.. •
e►ted ; and if the House were dittpused to seree•to
it, the better way would be to throw out the Bill
altogether.
Dr. Lusutircrott said, that the punishment
a death had beet, the cause of private banken; tie
moat instances refeiritr, to prosecute, whatever
might be the amount of the forgery. ILe.kut, of
a case in which the severity of the law had so ope-
rated, where the amount of the forgery on a p►i..
vate banker •wait 10.000/. lie held in his hand a
letter from a private banker, in which, spyaking of
the effect of the law inflicting capital guinshmeid„..
he used there word+, " We are put out of the pale
of the I for we eritizot protect our property."
Mr. CRIPINISsaid a few word►, which were inaudi-
ble is the gallery.
Mr. Maavrn supported the amendment.
The House then divided—
Ayes
Plow
Majoiiiy in favour of the exception
On our re-admission we uoder►tood that the
Marquis of LONDONDLIRY hod expresaa his de-
termination to divide the Motive vii Ute question
" that this Bill do now pays," and we found

Mr. BROUGHAM' saying, that since the Noble
Lord had determined upon making that stage of
the Bill one of discussion and division, tut would
not give • silent vote. Agreeing, as he did most
heartily. with his Hon. and Learned Friend in She%
principle oil which be first brought its the Bill.
slid regretting that he had felt hintielf Com-
pelled to admit the alterations which bad beers
introduced. agreeing also in some of the ex-
ceptions which had beet' made, he should .yet.,
feel happy that the Bill so altered should receive
the sanction of that House; and, if it *ook! rags
there, lie hoped it would reeeire elsewhere that
attention to which, after the deliberate and careful
discus-ion it had undergone, it was fully entitled.
The gallery was then cleared fin a divieiost.
Atter we had withdrawn we understood a warns
debate ensued, during which—
Lord A. HAMILTON (Ai we were ofterwardain-
formed) moved the adjournment of the House, but
subsequently withdrew his motion ; and
Lord J. Itussw. moved the adjournineht'of it*
debate, which was also withdrawn; and, tiaatiy—
The House divided on the question of dui
peN-
ing of the Bill—
Ayes' • • . 11$
Nees

Majgrity against the passing of the Bill 41
On our return to the gallery the SPRAIN'S ssW4
putting the question for his leaving the Chair, that
the House might resolve itself into& Committee no
the Dwelling House Robbery Bill.
Mr. CIIETWYND was decidedly opposed to the'
Bill, as tending, by lessening the punishment, to
increase the commis.ion of the crime. He tbeve-
fore moved as ap amendment—" that the House &a
resolve itself into a Committee on thir said Bill this
day six months." •
Mr. Conwranae supported the Bill at con-
siderable length, arguing that the doctrine that
the uncertainty of the infliction of punishment,
occasioned by the extreme severity of the law, in-
creased crime, in no-c,:se so strongly aiiplied as its
that which this Bill proposed to remedy.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL objected te-the Bill.
He said, if it passed, many crimes as aggravated as
burglary would ro-eive a slighter punishment.
The amendment was then put and negv,itived,
and the !lousy resolved itself into a Committee.
After a few verbal amendments the House re-
sumed, and the Report was ordered to be received
ou Wednesday next.
Sir J. MACK 14114441111. !towed .the orifier or the
Dv Air dbe Rouse going iote le Committee on the
Noingable Rivers Robbery Bill.
llt wee moved that instructions be given to the
Committee to extend its provisions In canals.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH observed, that stealing on
canals was not a capital offence.
After an observation from Mr. Wtruw, the Home
went into a I_7oinatiitee.—The Report was ordered
to be received on Wednesday next.

WAYS AND NIE4NS.
Mr. LUSIUMOTOM moved that the Report on the
Ways and Means he brought up.
M►. HUME objected, at that hour of the night.
that the Report should be brought up. It was a
regular understanding that the Report should nos
be brought up after eleven o'clock.
Mr. LUsHINErrom. consented to postpone it.
On the question 4" that the Irish Coroners Bill be
committed," Mr. R. Marna mowed that it t
postponed to the next Session.
Tile other Orders of the Ony we►e then
of, and the House adjourned at Out o'Ct.tic
tins morning.

TN'S SEA SERPENT.—This majestic inhabitant
of the deep has, it is said, again made its appear-.
once off Cape Ann. C.ptain GROWs, of the brig
Minerva, of Beth, formerly an unbeliever, is the
person who is reported to have seen it. and to have
had all his doubts.reiuoved on the subject.—(New
York Paper.)
Wednesday forenoon five companies of the 7th
Fusiliers, stationed in Edinburgh Cued:, under
the command of Colonel Sir E. Butzenvir. were
inspected and reviewed in Burutsfield Links, by
his Excellency Sir Tawas, BILAIDWORD, the Com-
mander-in-Chief. The troops went through se-
veral muniauwees and movements with the sitninA
precition, and his Excellency was pleased to es-
press his unqualified approbation of their soldier-
like appearance and correct and steady cradoct•

f ..!
4
.
i
...
I 1
some Into /aim Mould be &fleeted for the e
the coaa•Hois'of- the poor; sod be, thereon
Mr. Own.) a plait ought to be folly innotigsted
oath pais of a at might appear hemline' at
. selected, and made an basis of a measure for
I object.
Mr.ll-...SNUMlX4sisfie atme-ebservatione in
anent at NeWleasrk, obleh he had visited.
of persona ikandanisa Nominated to two thou,
' r were the mist, sal, amnion religious, em
*nom topTIOSIMIIatIow be bad errr seer.
,
attending Mg** of thoosaods in 40111414 i
Comes Mod Diepoolakment of rrime, the son
half the aningebabeen laid out in the fon
eetehlishomon'iti'lliit at New Leiter!, sod i
• outset, Strongman 'domino, to ameliorate
soil retingia(thrageorab of the poor, thesimmi
would Mee bees rendered so oefrequent as
• . " so destroy the necessity fur such expenses In
rearming it.
After a few words treat fer. W. SMITH in
Owes's plan, the Petition was ordered to be F
.„{ • Mr. BLACK BURN E presented a Petition I
ter against the POW' Law. Amendment Bill;
talonfrom Me same plaee spinal the Spoiled
These Pelitions were ordered to be printed.
Mr. IllU/SE asked, whether it was the in
si Right Huutirable Gentleman to press the
I ,e Bill this Seism'?
Mr. LUSH INGTON said, that the Bill it
omens the dropped alders of last week, and i
tened to revive it.
Mr. BERNAL presented a Petition from B
it's Mattison, investor of the Life Preserver, pi
0:4 i I . orPoiaIIOPIIII of a Committee to inquire Will
. , 1 4 Wily of his invention to the Preventive Smelt
1 1
, ; conekived its adoption would teed to the ;
I many lives.
i 'l as
i Mr. WAR RE observed, that many lives we
Preventive Service by the upsetting and , 1
boat, un the roast ; and thought the inirod
; s
invention might be attended with coosiderahl
• Mr. 1-US44INGTODI said, he was not pr
that the adoption of the life preserver might
(-1 particularly on the coast of Ireland.
; .
Mr. W. SMITH said, the observation of
Hemet, appcarrd lo him to afford a strong I
;I.f appointment of a Committee.
fi - f Sir I. COFFIN said, it was rather su
im
VI life preservers were good for any thing, that
he found in use among the Deal boatmen,
most exposed to danger in going out to the
vessels on the Goodwin Sands of any men on
' I. whu we-re probably as fond of their lives as
'i I did not rare what became of the life pre;
j 1 I
il .
were only kept out of the men of war; for
t, :i 11-, dienpisted on a lee-alsore, every man would t,
preterver, and the ship would be presently I
without the necessary exertions being used t:
. X s'i ' bull and the stores.—Tbe Petition was
I' - I'. printed.
On the mafiosi of Colonel DAVIES, retail
' 1 of the mount and value of all &figures mad
ont-purls of Great Britain and Ireland, for a
1 : of years; and also of the amount of goods
' I owners steer such .Sores hail been made.
I .1 On the motion of Mr. HUJIE, a return
r the names of all persons employed in the c
Y lie in Scotland, and of the amount of I
salaries, from the year 1805 to 1820.
/r : Lonr STANLEY presented • Petition fn
', wardens, Overseen, and Inhabitants of Gr
Lancashire, against the Poor Laws Almeida
- • p Petition from Manchester, praying for 0
1 . much, of the 55th George 111. as relate. to
11' ,
BANKRUPT LAWS.
we probates of wills.—Ordered to be printed
11 1
On the.motion of Mr, J. SMITH, the B.
I I Amendment Bill was read the thiikiime antianti
• • lONIAN ISLANDS.
• 11 ' Mr...HUME wished to ask the Noble Mai
explicit mower' to a queetioa which he put
• i . time ago. The queettins be alluded to was II
. . a native of the Weise Islarde, conies to 111
liable .to be ermined and ant back •Irai• I
•101111 of ihe Alien Act; Of whether he wet
same protection as a British .object ?"
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said
peewee prepared to give a full mower to II
posed by the Hon. Member, as no case hat
to call- for its application. He had no dithe
in toying that he did nut regard the native
• 'clouds in the light of British subject., hot
•
of a distinct and separate Stale, of which the
i ) '''' this country way merely the protecting pow.
Mr. HUM K said a clear understanding oni
bowed it Isis question was of rosisiderahle
; there were at dos moment several aatives of
their way to this country, in order to make
of
ceeloritelinjaailistitelnersandwhireridiressilhey
7boesgtsthideerd as
• yewoul
t
1 I we sot halve to the operation of the Alien
MaTdhseniltllmairqiubiesY okfmewLONbeDOWeNDheEedßßl:lbe4stilm
rei
1
state of the law might be, there was not the
of Ise provisions being pot in force agains
en seek a mission as the Honourable Menthe
--(Hem, hear.)
Sir R. WILSON widen to ask it the Ho
. s
Secretary of State bad ascertained whether
. 1 ' Ind been boasted by the Govenstoest of thi
Governors of Demerara sod the ether Di
t rant in Oaf possessing, to abotiab lir 1
: . lictiosi:of torture in criminal process, as;
I lir"'
..BU RN
.saisd be took shame to
bunt lioallasa si Nohow Sat question of lb
but he hoped so be obis to give him the nal
spired to-toonenr.
' • - - 'CRENINAL LAW.
Sir JAititd 41.46C11110170111 said, the
• . Move Use third fending of the Bill
, , , •,
shapuoishasent, of forgery. he felt i
std to-the. Mahe Mirprecise condi
NNN the Bill stood et, meet: Various a
I I been made, exception.' take'. and
introduced, and be 'must express his
to resist any farther. By voting foi
reading of that Bin, the House ..h
proceeding almost erisiveletit to a re
• , 1.
it was seceaaary to abate the punch
.for the mine of forgery. This, he
WOW founded on that conviction that
thst!•lisintishoseat &roared the imp
crime. These two conclusions mig
flat Ille firsoent inntl of the Bill, i
..
Ittestila that bad been paid to it ;
' • 1 'lf i Nisi Illopmares, it was of course ha
waged * soy stage: es• far as it I
1
wain dear misbegotten's that the pi'
•• Memoir. had been approved. This
•ik I' ':.
iiotLrest oft mere theory, It was. sane
I•
l'•li • s Legistasusa. said. corned the teepee
' 1
•
• . .. i ' •••
' . experience. bits° Metences the e
been tried.' Io the case of defraudie
4.
once potsishatife' by death, the capita
l • ' ')Was Vrtiotkekt and this for the avow
• I procurinecritivictions. In the instals(
grounds, which had been already
auniar experiment had been nude w
These .examples were too dessimilai
!admit there was any peculiarity is
) which the priniiPles ihould.be aPpl
had been the progress UI the priori
. ... crimival lewf Mill 14 woo a subject of
that more capitol .possisliments hod
i...,n the first year of hi. present Majtid
sauce the time of Edward VI. TI
i

. .. •
honourable diae;netien; and would ',ha ,ors butte the same pro
on the reign of the present Moosich ht the ryes of collio
it mould it • Bill it:°lo,
posterity, events than even which occupied • mach-
death,
more eittoded space.—(Cries qf Hear. 10110— tabet.. .corieraist oitsbitaiweichAitesohraeatii
LouirXlV. had at one period of his reign carried i
his- tyranny to such a pitch of refinement, that t
be made it punishable by death to escape from his velVou-oferime._(4
prison ; but this punishment he found it necessary °linen of the care c