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raTilupon Government of carrying into execution that which
l
iament in its wisdom and justice should think necessary.
(Cheers.)
Ale. WALLACE rose, but wasfor some minutes inaudible. He
thought that the question before the House was of so touch im-
portance, that it called for something more than a silent vote. No
man was more desirous to put an end to the dissensions whirl&
afflicted Ireland, and to promote a union of hearts between his Me--
jesty's subjects, than he was. If he was certain that passing the
proposed Bill would secure these objects, he should feel more grati-
ecation in giving it his full support, even at the expense of a great
constitution id sacrifice, than he now did in giving his reluctant op.
position. Which ver way the question should he decided, he con.
reseed he could not look upon that decision as very gratifying. If
the Bill should pass, he doubted very mach whether the anticipated
advantages would be obtained, and if it did not pass he was aware
that its rejection would create an infinite deal ofdissatisfaction. He
considered, however, that it would be productive of much danger,
and looking at either decision as an evil, he thought the rejection
of the Bill might be considered as the least. lie was willing to
admit that the language of the Roman Catholics was temperate.
and in common with eves), Member of that House he was ready to
offer his tribute to the Honourable Baronet (Sir Francis Bur.
dett) for the temper and manner in which he had brought
the question before the House; but yet the House should
not forget that the Petition on which this Bill was founded came
from the Catholic Association, from • body which the House
deemed it necessary to put down. At another period therefore this
measure may have been conceded without sacrificing the dignity of
the House, but if the Bill now passed it would be looked upon as
a peace-offering to the Catholic Association, and as a victory gained
hy its Intemperance. When such a measure as that of Catholic
Emancipation was proposed, he thought it necessary to prove that
them was a full, fair, and rational hope that it would remedy the
evils which now afflicted Ireland. No doubt it was a measure
which would afford much satisfaction to the Catholics of Ireland,
but the question was, whether it would remove, to any extent,
the evils which now afflicted Ireland. He thought it was
• measure which would be productive of considerable danger.
There certainly was nothing to apprehend at present from Catholic
Ministers sacrificing the best interests of their country at the shrine
of that religion.• There was nothing now to apprehend from a
Catholic King who would be wild enough to destroy the lib:Mies
and religion of his country ; hut what he apprehended was that
these dangers might take place at some future period. [Consider-
able noise prevailed in the House for several minutes, so much so
as to prevent our hearing a single word that the Right lion. Gen-
tleman uttered.) Until he could see that spirit by which Catho-
licism had always been d.• anguished, put down, he could not
vote in favour of this measure. But to hear some Gentlemen
talk upon the treatment of the Roman Catholics, one would ima-
gnne that they were speaking of African slaves. [Continued con-
fusion.] The Member for Armagh had stated that one of the
principal reasons for his conversion was the evidence that had
been adduced upon the subject before that house. Now he con-
fessed that be could not find that the religion of the Catholics had
in any respect changed, so as to make it safer for concessions to be
granted to them now than formerly. Ile found every thing so un-
defined both with regard to the establishment and the discipline of
that religion • taken even front the professors of it themselves,
that he could nothing to fasten upon, that enabled him con-
scientiously to say it would not be dangerous to give power to Ca-
tholics. [The Right Honourable Member, in the course of
these remarks, read various extracts front several papers that
he held in his hand ; but the impatience of the House was so
audible that we could not lean to what the documents referred.)
The only security for the Established Church in any measure of
this kir.d, was a substantial interference in the appointment of the 1
Catholic bishops, but they would not accept of those terms. [Time
coughing and noise in the House here became incessant during the
remainder of the Right lion. Gentleman's speech.)
After Mr. Wallace hail sat down, Mr. Canning was loudly called
for from Loth sides of the House. A short pause ensued, when
Mr. PORTMAN rose from under the Gallery. The first words
that we heard of the lion. Member's speech were, as we under-
stood, that although liberty and Catholicism had never existed to-
gether ; yet he was prepared to vote ft the present Bill, upon the
broad ground of its necessity. Seven millions of persons were is a
state of extreme degradation under the present system, and it be.
came the legislature to make some amelioration of it. The Hon.
Gentleman then made an allusion to the speech of an Hon. Member
on a former night, (Mr. W. N. Peel,) in which he had adverted to
the adage Noscitur a Sociis, and observed (as far as we could col-
lect from the uninterrupted noise that prevailed,) that it was de-
sirable for Catholics and Protestants to be united together in the
common bonds of fellowship as far as a removal of restrictions
could unite them, and concluded by supporting the Bill.
Mr. Secretary CANNING (after a loud and repeated call from
all parts of the House), rose and said—As it has fallen to my lot
to address the house on this occasion, I beg to assure you. that in
new trespassing upon your attention, I do it with peculiar diffi-
culty, because if I sin naturally anxious to treat the subject at some
length. the lateness of the hour will prevent my doing it justice.
In travelling over the ground of this grand question at the present
crisis, it is impossible not to perceive something far different, but
far more cheering, than any thing that we have heretofore known.
Whether or not, the opinion of the country is so satisfactorily pro-
nounced against any farther concessions to the Catholics as it was
at one time pronounced—and whether or not it may be inferred that
opinion is still the same—l will not undertake to say ; but this
much is certain, that among the petitions on the subject that have
been presented to this House (I desire to speak without
disparagement of any), there has been manifested no incon-
siderable degree of ignorance as to the question, and a still
greater degree of ignorance as to the state of the country to which
rhat question refers. I feel, in stating what I do state, the full
weight of the undoubted right of every man in this realm to come
before this House, and to state fairly his opinions. And I know
that every petition should be received by the House—and be not
only received, but be considered with most respectful deliberation.
But I know that, after all, you ought to judge according to your
own judgments. If, out of the general mass of the country, I were
to select any particular class of men whose interests are more im-
mediately concerned in this measure, and who are most nearly con.
sleeted withit, that clots of men would be the Clergy of the Estab-
lished Church ; anti I give them not only toleration, but praise, for
the manner in which they have come forward to express fairly,
and honestly, and boldly, their sentiments upon it. But even
in their petitions, I have found something of that ignorance
of the state of the laws, and of the tame of the country, of
which I complain—ignorance not affecting them in their sa-
cred character, but ignorance of which so many other persons
partake. 1 shall allude in particular to one petition I have
selected out of the many similar petitions that have been presented;
and it is immaterial to state from whence this petition has proceed.
ed ; bit: I think the contents of this petition will sufficiently show
that the opposition to the measure has been founded upon that
mistrust to which our natures are so liable. Timis petition prays
that the House would not grant to the Catholics those concessions
and those immunities which were denied to every other class of Dis-
senters, and it stated that it would be in the highest degree impoli-
tic and unjust to allow the Catholics, who were competitively
under the dominion of a foreign court, a voice in the enactment of
laws and in the administration of the laws, while the Protestant
Dissenters. who were under no such dominion, but who were mere
liberal and better educated, were excluded ront those privileges.
In answer to this petition, and to this declaration, I say that if it
be declared that the objects of the Bill is to place, and merely to
place, the excluded Dissenters, the Roman Catholic Dissenters. on
a fooling with other Dissenters, the objections against supporting
this Bill must at once fall to the ground. I will not so far as to
say that it would be right to remove all disabilities on account of
• religion. I will pledge myself to no such doctrine. But I will not
yield to it unless it can be shown that practical grievances will re-
sult front those disabilities, and with respect to the Catholics, will
these practical grievances exist or will they not ? I( I can prove
the fact that we discuss subjects in this House—that we sit in
, company with, and share our counsels with those who have still
greater religious disabilities than those Catholics, the nrgunient of
, which the petition is built is not only weak but groundless. It
, has surprised me much that as a great portion of the debate min this
subject hes more than usually touched upon theology, this Fobject
has not been alluded to. But the petitioners sympathise with the
, Dissenters, while to me it is quite clear that the syinpathy ought to be
the other way. What, shall we object to sit round that table—shall
we object to take counsel with those who lie under the pignut of a belief
! in transubstantiation ? God forbid that Were this Assembly and
, within these walls I should go into such a subject with any other
m view than that of placing the matter in a tele light ; but I ask,
while we reject as unworthy to he our associates those who believe
in the doctrine of transubstantiation, shall we admit and accept
those who do not believe in consubs antiation to be our associates in
this House? Let any man read wbst Luther has said on this sub-
, je;:. and perceive the line he has drawn between the two classes.
He mines not merely say that there is no difference between them.
. but he says, that the one may be a good subject, and that the other
must be a traitor to the State. But it is charged against the Catho-
-1 lira that their church is an exclusive church. Now I will only
take the evidence which was given before the Cotnteittee, to show
that all churches are exclusive. All who read the Athanasian
Creed, or hear it read upon certain holidays throughout the year,
may sec what a construction is there put upon the sublime doctrines
m of Christianity. I say then that it is absurd to assert that the
Catholic is the only exclusive church. Again, Sir, much stress has
been laid, during the course of this debate, upon the docrine of
. absolution, which, if taken in its literal sense, is undoubtedly
grossly ridiculous ; but it has been prove.' by evidence
before the Committee that this absolution is only a moons
that follows reparation of injuries, and good fellowship with
all men. If such be the case, then. I ask where is the
great evil that accompanies this docmrine? and i beg of those who
look upon it with so much horror, to compare it with a passage in
our ritual service f,w the visitation of the sick (Hear, bent), and to
place this passage in comparison with that doctrine. What, then,
is this doctrine of absolution sufficient to warrant the grievances of
which the Reiman Catholic have to complain ? I will not say that
there 'are not shades of difference between the Protestant and the
Catholic Church sufficient to make me rejoice, and i do heartily
rejoice, that we have separated from the Church of Rome; but I
say, that those shades of difference are not powerful enough
to permit the Church of England to impute to others that
which she herself is not without., or to make the breach so
wide as that it never can be closed. Another question is, as
to the doctrine which gives merit to good works, and attaches
to them a vital importance. Now I know of no doctrine
more damn:emus to the State, or one that is more pregnant with
mischief than the doctrine that good works are nothing, but that
every thing depends upon faith alone. We care not here to debate
points of theology, or even higher principles; we are here talking
of good subjects to a state, and I would tar prefer the man who be-
lieved that he must answer in another world for his works in this,
and be judged according to them, to him who believed that each

man was fated to his lot. I say I would either have such a man as,
a subject, and would unquestionably consider him the safer thin-
panion of the two. These theological objections then are notionF.
No man doubts that we have had, not only in this Moist, but in
the highest Milos% of the State, men who have been Unitarians. or
Socinians. I could prove such to be thr fact by mane (maniples, if
it were at all necessary to bring them forward ; kut it' it he admitted
that any one such person has been in those offices, it follows that
1 the theological objection is not valid. Then came the political ob.
jections. The Paphos, it is said, ought not to he admitted to ery-
tain privil -,ms, because they cannot own allegiance to any Inn a
Papist King. Why not? Has the case been at all made nut ?
Who was it brought a Monarch of England to the block? Who
was it stript the Prelates of England of their goons of their
power ? Such acts were not committed by the Papists. No. I
will not now say by whom they were committed. I am far from
advocating the doctrines of the Catholic Church, but when it is
broadly asserted that the Catholics are under the rule and dominion
of a Foreign Potentate, 1 feel called upon to assert my belief, that
such is not the case. The only and the whole question for the
Legislature is this:—Has a doctrine:been ever held and acted upon,
or if it have, is it held and acted upon now by the Berman Catho-
lics, that can bring into jeopardy the Church and the Constitution
of this State ? Dr. i)oyle. an Irish Boman Catholic Bishop. has
been examined touching this point before a Commitwe of the
House. Yet it is asserted by 301110 Honourable Members, that lie
has held one language before this House and another in his own
country. Now, I ask. is it possible that any man who has a elm- •
raster at stake, and a goal name mime, could have so done—that
he could have pledged his word, putting his oath out of the ques-
tion, for this might have been regarded by some persons as no-
thing—to that which WU utterly untrue? Is it likely that a man,
standing before this Douse, knowing that every word he uttered
would be read, not only by his adversaries, but by his own flock.
and aware that many of his brethren were remaining in the next
room, ready to be examined on the sante topics, and ready to con.
found him if his answers were incorrect, could have stated that
which he knew to be untrue ? Is it likely that Doctor Doyle
would have given a false explanation of the doctrines he held ?
It is utterly impossible that he could so have done. But whether
or not we credit the assertions of Dr. Doyle, there is another than
who believed as he did—anti who held the same opinions as that
Rev. Gentleman professed to hold, when speaking of the spiel.
tual effect of obedience to the Pope. It is the doctrine rot held by
Dr. Doyle alone--for all enlightened and educated Catholics in
all ages have been the same. I happened to fall on a passage in
one of the letters of Mr. Pope, the poet, who, as it is well known,
was a Catholic ; this letter was written soon after, by the death of
his parents, he became his own master, and was written to his
friend Bishop Atterbury, who had vainly endeavoured to convert
him to Protestantism. In this letter Pope said—" I hope all
Churches ate liberal. as far as liberality can be rightly orderstcod,
but I leave those points for others to dispute upon. I tint not a
Papist, for I renounce the Papal Power. but I am a Catholic, a
firm Catholic in every sense of the word." Thus the observation
of Pope conflmed the truth of the testimony of Dr. Doyle, and
Pope was a man of a most enlightened mind, and of supe-
rior talents, who expressed this sentences in confidence to his
friend. a Prelate of the Established Church. without having
any other object in view than that of declaring his real belief. I say
this opinion. that was delivered by a man of education one hundred
Years ago, tallies with that which of late days was given by in
Irish Prelate. Another charge that has been made ageinst the
Catholics is of a kind partly religious and partly political, and
asserts, that they have given themselves up to the guidance of their
Priests and their leaders, instead of depending upon the Constitu-
tion for protecticn. I will partially admit the charge, but I will
lay the blame elsewhere. They may he idolaters in religion, but if
they be idolaters in politieswe have made them so. by keeping from
them those privileges which they haven right to enjoy. But I say
admit them to an equal share in the Coestiieti on show that Con-
stitution as we have it, call upon them to fall down and worship at
our common shrine, and this crime of idolatry with which they are
charged will be limed of no more. I am perfectly ready to admit
that I ant not so fond of change as to wial for it. unless it can be
proved lobe of unquestionable advantage, unexceptionaLle in every
respect, and sufficiently recommended by the results that arc like's
to follow it. Is not this change to which I allude necessary as well
as politic ? Is it or is it not a grievous circumstance that the State
should be deprived of the full use of many millions of its
subjects ? Is it or is it not a grievous circumstance that the
crown should be limited in the choice of its subjects ?
Is it or is it not a grievous circumstance that so many
men should bear about them the badge of degradation, which
poisons the enjoyment of societyi and casts a damp upon their
hopes and their aspirations cf the rewards of industry and of ho-
nour ? I ask, is there any man who will not call these real
grievances ? I will not say they are such grievances as the COll-
- must die before; I will not even say they am such
grievance's as may not be overruled ; but I will say, nevertheless,
that they are grievances of which the country should take notice,
and which the Legislature of that country should endeavour to
remove. The lion. alember the Derry (Mr. Dawson) has said
that there is but a choice of difficulties, and that whatever conclu-
sion the House might come to he could not feel satisfied. I do rot
think we are placed in this painthl situation ; or if we are it is of
our own making. At all events, we have this advantage; we in-
herit the difficulties, but the cure is in our own possession. I do
not know how far those persons were justified who first framed the
system of degradation. But we have not row to legislate on the
same matter; we have not row to legislate under the same circum-
stances, nor do we come to the consideration of the sulject with the
same feelings when we come to revise the laws which they enacted.
The difficulties which they had to contend with were not difficulties
that were confined to the closet or the cloister. No; they atlectid
them politically, because the Constitution was disturbed, and there
was no other way of putting down those disturbances but by
putting clown the religion that created them. They mica
be pardoned, because what they did was in the heat of the
moment; they might be pardoned because they endeavoured to
• sustain a new establishment ; they might be hardened because they
were smarting under the remembrances of recent suffering ; they
might be pardoned because they were elevated by recent victory—a
victory that hail been long and well contested for ; and they might
be pardoned because they retaliated on those who, when they lied
the power, exercised hover them. There is another way, also, to
do our ancestors justice; they looked at the problem they had to
solve, anti they went the way to solve it. They saw no manner of
rooting out the enmity between them and the Popish Jacobite, and
' determined that those they could not convert—for they did scruple
a little as to extermination—they would deprive of every means of
increase and of power. I will do them the justice to say that a
more admirable system could rot have been devised than the one
they adopted : the rack is a horrid instrument, but it is a fire piece
of mechanism—and the penal code, though exquisitely ingenimew
wits a code of horrors, fur it set the father against the ton, and the son
against the father; it steipt the industry of some, and the energies
of all; it prevented the poor from looking protection from the
rich ; it prevented the rich from being safe from the poor, and it
speedily reduced a population of about a million ton few isolated
individuals. But you have since cliatiged your police, or the en-
actments of 1798 were mischievous in the extreme. You repaired,
, you relaxed, and you then changed them; you changed this long cata•
I )ague of penal enactments, which 1 often read with so much horror.
The question then conies to this, are we to go back to the eventful
I scenes of our ancestors, or are we to go forward, and make legisla.
tion progress with the intelligence of the age? This is the (sues-
tinn before you. I will admit that this question is satisfactorily
acsweted, when any man tells ire how it is possible we are to avoid
the alternative; but 1 'owe heard from no man how this was to be.
We have an instance deciding how much the minds of then are be-
' coming unprejudiced on this question. The truth is makino, its
way in prejtiiiecil, although honestly prejudiced minds. h is im-
possible to have listened to this debate, and not to have seen this
triumphant achievement over error: the horest and conscientious
mind throwing off its farmer unsound opinions, and acknowledging
its conviction of the truth. It was impossible not to feel delighted 1
j at the open and manly declaration of the Richt Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Brownlow) upon this question, and of his conviction of the
essential importance of it to the peace of Ireland. Considering the
, Istation in which he stands, and the situation which he holds in that
country, his conduct is most expressive of the force of truth over
, Iprejudice. It was not his 'peed) but his individual presence in
that state that spoke thunder-tougued. It was impossihic not to
reel the operation of this power in the speech of the Gallant Colonel
( Bagwell), who was not heard perhaps so fully as his sentiments
were strong ; it was impossible to have heard that speech and not
to have mmked the candour and manly sentiments which it deli-
vered. These are the living illUSttAtiOilS of the truth, that the time
is now come when this munition trust brought to a triumphant
conclusinn. There is also the Honourable Gentleman who is so
closely connected with the Northern parts of Ireland (Mr. Brown.
low). and whose name I had always heard coupled with measures
wholly opposed to those liberal views which he now came forward
to advocate; it was impossible to have heard his honest and candid
avowal ()Ibis sentiments, without fettling that he was become a
convert to Catholic Emancipation. nor without feeling that there
is a sentiment excited which is bringing men of every denomina-
tion, and of every party, to a fair and unbiassed contemplation of
the question. Thin, Sin if these are intlicatjoas of the state of
opinion which now premil among many who have hitherto been
opposed to all concession, are there not otter indications which
affect this question '• Are there not proofs that the measure will be I
met with a different temper from what it has hitherto been. What f
then is the conrequeece of the exclusion of the Catholics ? Why 1
the first is, that it turns to evil every blessing of the country. You
speak of the greatness of wealth, all increased population, a grow-
ing intelligence, an increasing prosperity, as the sign of the times
and the blessings of Ireland, but is it possible that either our grow.
inn; wealth, increasml intelligence, or increase I population. can
avail those whoa* feelings csinnot be satisfied whale you %atilt:Ml
from then) a fair perticipation of these blessings. Do you tint feel
that you lead them to war if you do not grant them. now that they
are ripe fur it, the enjoyment of those privileges from which they
have been so long excluded, and which both policy and right deride
they oliould enjoy? If you deny them this, they will feel
that you have lifted them up to an entincece from which to
view those bright objects they would thin mtain, if permitted,
only to disappoint their expectations, and coder more des.
mate their hopes. Better perhaps would it have been thr
them if they !hut retweired in their puiniitire state of bon.
doge and of ignorance, than that you should simulate in them
eve's( principle of action, and then deny then) the capacity of en-
joyirm the fruits of it. eiir, what are the consequences which will
How from nor graittirm the Roman Catholics emancipation ? Ste
Honourable Friend (Mr. Dawson) has said that one of then would
be the overthrow of the Constitutioo. A very wide chain this be-
tween tiny Honourable Friend's premises anti his conclusion, and I
should like to see or be informed what are the links which form it ?
(Laughter.) Of course one of them most consist in their physgm.
force. Physical form I conceive is much more likely to, be em-
ployed when tit,: dour is shut than wL:u the dolt is opeeeM lLaugh-

ter.) What is proposed to be given to the Catholics by this Bill is
not power, but a possibility of possessing power ;—not fruition, but
rapacity to enjoy it. And while this country, guarded as it is by
its Pro:est:lnt prejudices, in the hest use of the word, retains those
prejudice*, they are noire sore to present at all times a barrier to
any orerweening ambition which the Honmimbleelembtr for Derry
seems to cttribute to the Catholics, whenever they should in-
sist upon an undue portion of power with the Protestants.
If you persist in excluding the descendants el the great men who
helped to learn that corstitution of whi:h you arc so jealous, the
consequence will ultimately be that the hand that toil-, the uncul-
tivated 11:nil, the urlAtered initividul, will assert and assume •
power mach more fearful than any you are called upon to confer.
It i*, therefote, an irrational, impolitic, and dangerous policy, to
pursue this course, arid I most fearfully look forward to the conse-
quences. Smelt-Ore Sir, the: the present Bill were to pass, what
would ensue? Why, in tic next, perhaps, we should have a new
corner or two, wles would at first be an object of curiosity.—
(laughter) but sorer that our feelings would subside, and we
should sit down by his side as unconsciously as we row do by the
side of it Protestant. We never ask whether any of the Ilorour.
able Gentlemen around us are good Protestants. We all seem to
think, with Mr. Bloke, " 'het be was the best Protestant who
protested Realest every thing in the world." I any we should soon
become as iiiiettiowinos of the presence of a Catholic as of a Pro.
teetent ; and I would risk toy life on this proposition, that no Ca-
tholic woulti ever venture to couch a speech, in this House, in such
strong and dangerous terms es what I have myself beard front •
Protestant, and that the Constitution would tot be so much in
danger fawn Catholic Members am from some Prioestant ones whom
I have heard within these walls. I ask, then, tire person who now
opposes this measure, to carry his imagination a little further be.
yond the present time, to a period when he is not eery likely to
have much personal interest in the country, and !et hint answer me,
on his honour, if he believes (if this Bill should not pass) that is
ten years from this time, the Catholics will' not be admitted to a
seat in this House ? It must be so ; nothing can resist this inevi-
table result ; the nature of things, and the progress of mind, make
it irresistible. Then, if the boon is to be given, and in an short
a time, shall we not have the grace of giving it now Or.
to put it in another way—since this must be effected at all
I events, and perhaps st niuch trouble in the interim, shall we
take upon ourselves the responsibility of refusing it now, at a titre
alien every thing conspires to make it an act Loth of grace and of
the best and wisest policy ? Shall we venture to withhold from the
Catholics a participation in the blessings of the Constitution,—a
Constitution, mind, which we are holding up to the Catholics as
that fora Melo they are to bleed,--a Constitution which, when de-
scribed in this House, is the beauty and the boast of us al!, not
only ler the protection it extends over our property aced our lives,
but for the ptivilegea it bcs:owa. But is it such to the Catholic ?
No ; to hint it is rather the Constitution of exclusion, and yet you
call the Catholic to how down and prostrate himself before it. I
say it would be most absurd and preposterous to suppose that you
you could reason with sentient beings with such logic es that ? In
proportion, then, as you arc prosperous—in proportion as this
country is great—in proportion as the country is rich and powerful,
unfolding its wealth sues capabilities of which it its every day more
and more displaying—in proportion as we want not the aid
and tear not tire frown of any other ration, so in proportion are
we ails to grant that boon, and to realise that bright dawn of hope,
which has been so long sought for, sod entertained by thee*.
tholics of Ireland. Ily the concurreece of the moat extraordina-y
circumstances, which chance seems to have conspired to Meg
about, we stand now in a situation in which we never stood before,
when the Catholic Question has been discussed. We have dis-
cussed it either in the meridian of a foreign war or in the midst of
&nestle dtftbrences, ard many who then rtracd it.oeen did so on
the grotitel that the times were unsuited for such a question. and
that they would writ for a calmer season before so great an act of
legislation should obtain their concurrence. The time is now come
beyond our hopes or let st sanguine expectations. Who ever
looked forward to see this country in the high and ealrey and pros-
perous sintion in which she at present stands, and stall we not
seek them and melee it our own by some signal act of grace and ct
justice ? If so. then ore greatness may fade, our wealth diminish,
our prosperity pass away—bat we shall still have made this time
our own— _ _ .

" Qui non moderabitur free,
Infectum vela esse dolor clotted suascrit et menu
num penis olio per rim testinat inulto."
This is not the occasion when I should wish to offer any observa-
tions on the particulars of the Bill ; but an Hon. Member has
alluded to the oath and the securities. W ith regard to the oath it is
unfortunately framed. I agree in the opinion that it is more like a
Bill of Indictment than a protestation. But it should be remem-
bered that there is another place for the Bill to go up to, where ouch
scruple and many surmises (a laugh) were likely to arise. To make
the Bill palatable, thereficre, to the other House, we have restored
the long tail to the oath. Thee co net my Hon. Friend, and objects to
this, and treats it as if it were a contrivance of the Catholics ; and
desires me to omit this part of the oath; bat I would much rather
this omission should be his than mine. But it should be
borne in inlaid that this obnoximis clause is as old as any
Act of the Ifott:e relating to the Roman Catholics. He
always considered that it was to be measured by what would
eatiely Protestants—not what might come up to the idea of his
lloneurable Friend. The object was not so much to cure
tie mischief of which he was apprehensive, but to afford an ade-
quire re reedy for that which then existed, and pressed upon the
Cannily. 3ly Right Honourable Friend (3lr. Goulburn) had argued
as if the communication with the Court of Rome was then, for the
first time, to be guarded against; but I can inform my Right
Hon. Friend of what certainly is a matter of very general notoriety,
that this communication goes on every day—that irecripts are con.
finnan); passing—that every trivial event is made known--that
marriegee. and every other occurrence of private life, is communi-
cated. This unquestionably its contrary to law; hat it is, never-
theless, indoleed in, without reference to that limitation. It is, as
created by law, an offence on which the severest penalties might be
visited ; but the penaltiete from their extreme severity. are not in-
flicted. No one thought of carrying the provisions of such laws into
effect. I would say to my Right Hon. Friend, that as the fact was
unquestionable, that such communication did exist, he, thinking it
so thinereaus„ ought to inttoduce a law that would reach it, for the
existing enactinems. as the fact proved, were totally insufficient for
such a purpose. The severity of those laws which affected inter-
course with the Court of Rome, came most particularly under my
own coreicieration. A short time after I came into office the King
bad received a very kind letter from the Pope, and I thought it
not prudent to advise his Majesty to answer that letter until 1 had
taken the opinion of the law officers of the Crown upon the sub.
ject. These learned persons agreed in thinking that the Minister
who shoule advise such a communication would be guilty of a
preeneittire; accordingly the letter from that time to the present
loci ren,ained unanswered. These are no; the defects of the Bill;
they arise out of the present system. a system which it is now in.
tended to alter. These arc the three objects to which I have
though; it necessary to direct the attention of the House. The
suggestions which may he made on the subject I am ready to
adopt, though i ant unwilling to attach to the measure the limi-
tation spoken of. I would now address myself more particularly
to the two Bills which are understood to be auxiliary to the pre-
sent measure. For my own part lam perfectly contented to sup-
port the present Bill, 'tithing regard to both or either of those
auxiliary measures. lam willing to vote for it as it now stands,
independently of any such extraneous support, and in doing so I am
not to he considered as pledged to the support of any other Bill on
a different subject, for I have much to learn before I can make up
my mind to the conviction that these tnealitireii are in themselves
unobjectionable ; but if by consenting to their enactment, I could
conciliate those who have scruples to overcome—if I could du
" a great right" by consenting to " a little wrong" much might be
yitl.hd to expediency, that in a stricter spirit might be refused.
I whit to have it distinctly borne in mind that freeholds in Irel..ttd
are very diffigent trout freeholds in England. ( Hear, hear.) Those.
therefore, who might hesitate—those wno might have difficulties
with regard to the elective franchise, should remember that in this
respect Ireland anti England most widely differ. To such it
might be clearly explaitied, that in thus striking at the symbol,
we do not violate the essence of freedom. Of the blame which
may ittriell to this measure—of the censure which may hereafter
fall on it, I, for one, ant %Oiling to take my share, if, at the
expense of a trifling evil, we accomplish a great goal. I.
this view of the subject, I confess that I look upon this aux-
iliary enactment with great and increasing favour; nor have
I begird any argument which has shak-a toy opinions on this
subject. As regaris the second of these auxiliary measures,
namely, that which would go to make a provision ter the Roman
Catholic Clergy, it is tamed that there would be a gross and maul.
rest itijas:ice in taxing tile whole population of the empire at large,
for the support of a clergy whose nimietry was confined to only a
portion of that population ; but, in the warmth of urging this ar-
gument, do they thrget the h gine: ilounua Do they not all eon.
tribute to the pnymetit of this provision for the Clergy of a part of
the population much fewer in number than the Rumen Catholics?
Is it not a grievance deeply affecting the Roman Cetholiee, the
that they ate obliged to pay for the maintenance of the Clergy of
the Established Chore!), ned is it prof-awed to remove that griev-
ance ? Quite the contrary. He I intimates willimmese to agree
to any measure havi. g tor it objere a diminution of the reverhies
of that Church, or an emenseiteneet is any respect upon its rights
and property? The integrity of chit Churelt I feel bound to
maintain inviolate, us the comiectieg link he. seen Great Britain
and Ireland. The Catholic is taxed for the mainteeance of that
Church, and the ffeitlVl loam: of the Presbyterian* is in principle
a tax perfectly analogous, and consenting to the one is decidedly
inconsistent with objecting to the other. I shall now trouble the
Boone with hot a be further observittionie—(Loud cheering.)-1
would rent attention to site internal situation of the country, and
at the sate time to the condition in which :lie( ettholics are placed.
In the 1 romerity of the country at large it has outgrown all its for-
mer greatness ; and as it is in lIUMAII nature hi look invidiously on
the success of rivals—nations following the same ride an individuals
—it is to be presumed that the other countries of Europe regard
with no eh-mutable eye the increasing power and strength of the
British Eillpir4. In the painful feelitiga which this may be ex-
pected to excite, w here do they look for consolatien ? To Irclatitl,
and there do they fasten, as if by instinct, mum the unfortunate
eircutietencee of that couture. They cherish the pc rsunsion that
she is as a eankling %%mild in the bosom of the Stioe, which will
work the destruction of its vital powers. het us then disappoint
the hteges of those who look to this as the means of accomplishing
their v,ewe against the interest of l'ireat Itritaiti. Let us, by heal-
ing this wound, annihilate douse hostile with:mations, and let the
cure be so complete, and the !IC:111114 so tffiretual, that not even the
cicatrix shall remain.— (1,,,,a cheering and appleuse.)
Mr. Secretary PEEL : I amt sure the House will do me the jus-
tice to believe that it would have been infinitely more grateful to
coy reclihes to have beet spared the necessity of addressing the
House on a soh cu already s t exhausted. My Right Honourable sf
Fite:A will, I :rust, gave me credit when I say that it would