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London, England, 1824-03-16 00:00:00

but, in his opinion, one the Many instances which sheered
them had before walasludt. fsaent
x'Aftle?alerepieltrtionisisstsgof the !caddie An
sopt"ea' hich•
his speech, the Honourable Member concluded with the nentem
which we have given above.
The CHANUELIAM of the EXCHEQUER was not
to admit that the discussion of the subject in the course of Cared,
was as inefficient as the Honourable Gentleman had stated it to be,
The votes of the gentlemen opposite certainly chewed their disc.
tisfaction, but a large majority of the House expressed a very dif.
&rent opinion, and seemed satisfied with the reasons which he had
urged in justification of his views. Since then lie had heard nothing
to alter his opinion. Ile did not pretend to say he had any newi
light on this subject, nor could he flatter himself that he was trigs.
nious enough to discover wine additional reason to justify his ore.
ohms, every time they were called in question by the Honourable
Gentlemen. opposite. The two main grounds of the Honourable
Gentleman s proposition were, first, his anxiety fm nos '"ur ; and,
soondly, the justice of equalizing the duties. lie (Mr. 31 ) sad
that the present division of the taxes upon beer and malt,
caused an additional expense in the eollectime, and that in point
of justice they should not relieve the rich at the expense of
the poor. As to the expense of collecting being as cued,
it was a fallacy, as he stated last year before. The tsr,
was this—the Excise Officers were not charged with collect-
ing one duty only; they collected the duties on malt, sop,
candles, and all such other duties as came within their provioce,
and hence it would be impossible to tell what the collectitm
16.745.757 any single duty actually colt. Each individual collected the mime,
In order to estimate the enormous extent of the unequal burden laid duties assigned him, and a general charge of collection was all
on the labouring classes, he would suppose that the 10,532,623 that could be obtained. He had bent his attention to this subject,
bushels of malt consumed by private brewers, were consumed by but he had not as yet been able to discern any means of calculating
them in the same relative proportion of strong and table-beer as by the precise expense of collecting any single duty. The Han.!
the public brewers. lie found then that the private brewers must Alenkber scented to think that a large sum could be saved Mr the
have brewed 3,949,733 barrels of strong beer, which, had it paid the tratiference of the beer duty to that of malt ; but he (Mr. 31e.
enormous duty levied on the public brewer, would have yielded to berly) seemed to forget, that the very transference would be at-
the revenue a sum of 1,974,V161.101. This sum had been saved by tended with expense. The lion. Gentleman said "No ;" but how
the Members of that House and the landed interest. The proportion could he assume that ? if the duty on malt were increased, the
of table-beer brewed by the private brewers was 1,222,537 barrels, greater would be the ingenuity to evade it,and that of itself sentikl
which, at 2a per barrel,would have yielded to the revenue a sum of render an increased establishment necessary to prevent it. The
122,1.131. The total sum thus saved by the private brewers was duty on beer last year was about three millions, the quantity of
2,107,0191. The working classes of the community now paid nearly malt used about tosentynieven bushels, and if only ?a. a
3,01.1001101.0 f duty on this article, and if any doubt were enter- bushel were laid on that, there would he a defiriency in the re.
rained upon the subject, he was prepared with documents to venue of about 3110,0001. !fere then were two objections to the
prove it. In 16'23, the quantity of strong beer brewed was motion of the lion. Member. It was said, however, that the present
6,212,7 U barrels; of table beer, 1,621,103 barrels; and of that duty was unequal, and, abstractedly viewing the question, it
' intermediate beer, said to be so good for the public, 6,892 barrels might be so. Undoubtedly the malt was charged with a higher duty,
This small quantity was brewed by 55 people. and to produce this, which was sold in beer, than that used home-consumption ;
what was called an experiment, this !loam had violated all just but then, looking at the practical effect of that difference, it
and fair legislation. The amount of duty collected on a portion of enabled ie fanner and the ituinulacturer in the country to have a
this quantity was 3,270,2051., without deducting any thing in the good article at a cheap price ; and it besides had the novel effect of
shape of abatements, but by merely transferring the duty to the keeping that large class of persons from the public-houses. If,
one article of malt. There would be a saving to the public, in the then, that system were changed, an injury would be done to such
collection alone, of above 290,0061. Ile contended that the poorer, persons. which should be avoided when it was possible. The
the labouring classes, were paying a duty of. 2,300.0001. upon their lion. Gentleman, all through his speech, talked of only two classes,
consumption of beer, while the rich only paid 2,100,11001. lie the rich and the poor, which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
trusted that after such a statement, in which he could prove such thought not only unfair, but unwarranted. In this metroop,lis,
an inequality, that a Committee would be appoint , and that where so many of the nobility and gentry resided—when: there
the Right lion. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not oppose were so many opulent persons in trade, the brewers' Leer was
it. The great objection to the present ax was its inequality ; i:s consumed, which paid the higher duty ; and the same thing applied_
pressure was not the same on the rich and the poor. He to all the persons residing in country towns, who were at ell in
did not ask that the poor should be exonerated from easy circumstances; so that evidently, when the Honourable Gen-
their fair share of the duty; but if any favour were to he tleman marshalled the rich against the poor, he was exaggerating
shown, they were intitled to it. lie thought it peculiarly indeli- the degree in which the higher duty pressed upon the poor. He
cate that the landed interest should exonerate themselves by their (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) by no means argued that a tax
influence in this !Muse, while the poorer classes were paying an pre sr was good because it prevented • freed to the injury of the
undue proportion. Porter had now become almost a necessary of consumer; but if the Hon. Gentleman only went to shift the item
life to the working classes, and every means should be devised of of charge, his principle fell to the ground. If the consumer. by
letting them have It of as good a quality, and at as cheap a rate, as such a change, was deprived of any incidental benefit, it would
possible. lie had another objection to the division of duty on beer he an argument against that special mode of dealing. though
and malt. inasmuch as it created a double expense in the collet- it formed no argument against taking away the whole tax.
tion. The whole duty on beer, if transferred to that on malt, Frauds are seldom detected by the nicety of the taste, but far
could be collected on the duty on malt alone, and whether the duty ortener by the vigilance of the Excise. With respect to the measure
was 2s. lid. or 4%. fid. not na additional Excise Officer would be of last year. great ridicule had been thrown upon it ; but, he was
required ; for all each would have to do was to write 45. 6d. instead free to say, he never expected from it very great results ;it wutried
of Yet. lid. The charge for collecting theduty on malt was 163, MM. ; as a matter of experiment; and he was not insensible to the obi::.
on beer, n 5,9271.; and surely no one would contend that such clone which might he urged against every sys em of taxation which
an unfair system did not demand investigation. Such an extra produced restrictions. Ile had applied his attention in this einijcet,
charge for collecting the ditty was uselea, it was worse, it was and he hoped he should be shortly able to offer some proptuithm om
oppressive. Ile was aware he would be met on this head by that subject. Ile knew that this was no answer to the lion. tier..
the Chaneeflor of the Exchequer stating, %hat though these Oman's motion, nor did he intend it as such • he only ennitimed
charges appeared to be incurred by the collecting of the du. it by the way. The question for the consideration of the Ileum
ties on beer and malt; yet that the real state of the charge now was, not whether a duty should be taken off, but whether it
was totally different. Then, admitting it for the moment to be en, should ba transferred. Ile thought it unwise to tranener a duty to
he contended such an admission, of itself, challenged enquiry. hie araw material, and be should, therefore, decidedly resist the pre.
liontsurabl Friend, the 31einher for Aberdeen, had had a conver- sent 'notion.
sation with the Commissioners on this subject, and they stated to Mr. II U E valet he had listened with great attention to the oh-
him, that a fair apportionment was made of the expellees attending jectintix advanced by the Right lion. Gentleman. and felt con&
the collection of those duties, and that the sums he stated were the dent they did net overthrow the arguments of his lion. Friend.
proportion of expense which their collection incurred. In the na- He had labnered. in his opinion, most unavailingly to answer that
pen before the Howse (though not yet printed), he found a melon. part of his friend's argument which referred to the collection of the
random, or rote, the purport of which was—that the charges for duties. The Right lion. Gentleman says the expense of the end.
collecting thee: duties, se stated on the face of the returns, were lection would be the same even if the measure proposed by his lion
not correct ; that the exact charge for collecting any of the duties Friend Was curio', as the number of revenue officers to iscie disirict
specified could not be given ; but that as the greatest amount col- would still be the same. This appeared to him • strange assertion,
lected was from beer and malt, so in the item of charge they were and he would be glad to talc the Commineioners of Excise a simple
apportioned with the greatest amount. The note concluded by question, which he was sure would be answered affirmatively. The
stating, that there was no ditty on beer in Ireland. In Ireland the question would be this, if they did not in each district so distribute
duty was transferred from the beer to the malt ; the consequence the officers as to apportion their time to their labour, and tberenre
of which was, that the consumption of beer was greater, that the if there were parts of the time in which these indiviittals had to
duty was better paid, and that such an arrangement gave the most employment, it was evident the expense of keepirg up these
general satisfaction. In order to collect the doom on beer, and in officers sass useless. If revenue officers, under the system pro.
order, as it was said, to obviate the frauds which were practised, it posed by his Honourable Friend. were prevented from atterthog
became necessary to pose a new Act of Parliament ; and so late at breweries three or tour hours each day. or every other day,
as the first and second of his present Majesty such a law was it was, in his opinion, clear that so much expense should be
passed. A harsher law, or one more unjust, or one more un- saved. \rich regent to the number of the reductions to take
newouarily restrictive of trade, was never perhaps passed in place in the di,:r cis, the oaring no doubt would being' but it
that House. It had no sooner pulled, howeim, thin the Scotch brew. was, lie thought, impossible UP say to what precise ameent it
en aped against it. They stated they could not carry °albeit would euiend : in his opioion, his Honourable Friend was
trade were continued, and that the first Intimation they had of warranted in the statement that the additional 2-. a bust el week
its existence, was when the Excise officers came into their premises amount to 200,0001. This was the sum which he saw by the es-
to act upon it. Three very respectable gentlemen, the Scotch com. thuates, was; the amount, he made no doubt, tartly expended. Aeto
missions:Ts as we understood, 3teutrs. PIMA, Fotheriughun and the inequality complained of by his Hon. Friend, it was not all dim
Ruse, gave it as their opinion, that the duty on beer should be trans- puted. It seemed to he utterly forgotten by the House, that wie
fared to that on malt, and he hoped that his Majesty'.Dlinisterswould third, or one-fourth of the beer was consumed by the poorer flees :
listen totheir suggestion, and attend to the health and comfort of his the entire quanthy was not used in boadon. if the quartity
Majesty's subjects. Ile did not however think it was at all ne. of the liquor consumed was inquired into, it would be ascertained
cessary for them lemislate upon what the subject was to buy, for that the bulk of the persons were the consumers of porter at the
he most be conceiveerthe best judge of what suited his palate and great ditty. Any regulation would, in his opinion, be unavailing.
his pocket. The Scotch brewers he should have added, state that it the rich man were allowed to drirk this malt-liquor at a cheaper
they could not carry on their trade, unless some alterations were rate than the poor mad. It would be but consistent with the chr-
madain which event they contemplated security to the revenue, the ratter of the !louse—it would be but consistent with juetice—thet
diminution of smuggling, and an almost certain encream of con- all classm of the people should be enabled to purchase their liqui r
sumption. After a long discussion on the subject, they received an upon equal terms,. If the tax were taken completely. off the
answer from Mr. Imehington, stating that the regulations of breweries, he felt convinced, from the increased quantity of the
the first and second George the Fourth, chap. 22, were ne- beer, that there would be no diminution in the trade. or in the
ccesary for the protection of the revenue, and that the Lords revenue derived fro:n it. He thought the Right Honours's/II
of the Treason could net consent to the alterations which were Gentleman dial net deal fairly with the extracts produced by his
prayed for. The only pretence for continuing these regulations Honourable Friend., with whom he decidedly agreed, that the in-
was the security of the revenue; and he con.ended that the revenue creased consumption of the article would amply make up foe
could be touch better collected, and be fees onerous to the people, any loss of revenue that was feared : stilt lens End the ageism!.
if these regulations were altered in the manner he had already tural interests any cause of fear; for he was sure that the etl.
stated. The restrictions upon making beer in all its stages were couramment given to the growth of barley would make up for
wholly unnecessary. The Lords of the Treasury too took upon the inc.eased duty that may WI upon them : therefore, the va
upon themaelvat to fix the prices of two sorts of beer, and said to jection, a applied to this interset, was not nue. The argument
the consumers, "You shall only have those two sorts, at such a used by the It:ght Honourable Centlenian was true, mat the
price." If the principle were right as to beer, why not apply it to charges imposed noon dererent articles, to render them efficient,
spirits and wine? If they were to guide the palate, to regulate the should be. equal ; anti he theught the feeling of the licuse on this
price, and consult the comfort of the people as to beer, why not in subject should he corclueive. Ile remembered how the expreentn
the cases of tea and sugar? But no. no such thing. For himself, of the Right Ilonouruble I:inflation wits cheered, when lie declared
he had no objection that the people should be guarded as much as that since taVi!ion was necessary, it should be so impsond as to
possible against frauds, but as to prices, they ought to be allowed weigh equally upon all. It this argument were true on all other
to judge for thenvelyee. Why, if Ministers regulated he price of matter, why net e dually so UrOn malt ? Ile could conceive no
beer, (lid they not also regulate the prices of calicoes woollen, and difference. if, therefore, the Right lion. Gentleman Tithed
other goods? I Mon two sorts of beer they set a mornsum price, to act upon his own principles, he won't' not stop his Hon. Fried,
on one of 2e. on the other of em. The table.beer brewers then nor would betake any exceptions to the manse lie was pursuing. fie
memorialized to he allowed in raise the price of their article to gds. ( sir. ill must smite his regret that his Hon. Friend inthmted the
but they were not favoured with an answer. In the interim nail 'Mum what he would do in the I ',nominee. 'late incqualuy of the
, and hops rise—still no answer; end what was the result? that tax was admitted, and though its injusnee was denial, it appeared
under the colour of beer the people were drugged with trash. to him to be the best policy to have all the tax,', equal. Those who
'l'he loss to the brewers was great, but no one believed that' unancsi for the unequal system of taxation !night levy the tax upon
they would not in some way or other cover it : mid they did beer, and theme who preferred the equal plan might, if they wished,
so, by lessening the quantity of mutt in their beer. The cast to have it raised upon malt. One goes] result would follow from hislion.
the brewer of six barrels and three quarters of beer amounted Friend's motion : all breweries would be tree from the visits of the
to 71. lOs., and the produce was 61. Ilea. leaving a loss to hint of caatotn-house officers. would he a most beneficial measure.
12s. 6•1. on every st barrels of beer which he brewed. But, in This step had been taken with regard to the brewcriest in Ire.
point of fact, the public really sufl'en:d this loss. One of the argil- land, and consequences of the most beneficial meure had fol-
, mints against his plan was, that it would be wrong to place beige lowed. If this Pleasure WWI useful io Ireland. why should it oat
duties on one article: but then, during the war, the duty on malt he practised here? The 31initics hail acted upon this plan in Im-
was es. Mlle, besides the duty on beer. What greater difficulty land either advisedly or unadvisedly; he had Its doubt aft heir act-
then could there be now in collecting the duty of 4s fkl., than ing advisedly, and he csmezted the same system wonld tee acted
during the war of ne. nele. ? In tart, he had been informed by per- upon hem, tor the sake of consistency. The Hight lion. t tenth's
sons hilly coneersant with this subject, that regalatiors nowt be man should change his argument. fie tells his lion. Friend he
made by which the impossibility of committing frauds could lie approves of his principle. and yet he refuses him en inquire. Ile
obtained ; and that again would form a prone" subjec: for the in- prevents hint from receiving information. semi in so doing tie acts
vsapgation of a Committee. It was also suited that the farmers, ln opposition to his own principles:. II:e will not allow a cenin•tt.
who paid no duty on beer, gave it as pert of their wages to their tee upon the advice of experienced persons. lie gave his decided
labourers; and he thought the farmers should have no such right. aupp,rt to the motion, and he hoed the li.mee, if they did rot
No class of persons should be exempted from the duty, as a means assent to the argurecoen of his Hon. Friend this year, would he
of enabling, them to pay their labourers. It' the manunicturete set pemered to assent to them the next.
up such a claim, he knew it would at once be %cowed ; and 1.'41r V.-01)E1101ISE did not mean to deny the inequality ef the
the farmer: were only allowed to do see because Ministers, tax, but thee argument advanced ly the lion. Mentheo with shank
were absolutely afraid ee the landed interest, else the system wool.' the notice originated was erre,r. that moat of the bar
have long since been put an end to. It was also said by the Right I brewed 11012 contemned by the poor and indigent. These may rot he
Bonaurable Gentleman, that he did not like to make ary changes his precise words, but he weelti appeal to the Homo ie r;,t
until the Scotch and Irish duties were regulated ; that regulation I not the valor of his argument.-1 Mr. Malterly said •• No. 110...1.-.
was now made; and lie again contended, that the result was a I age t lie would also nereal tee the I louse if the lion. ember heal r,:
revenue anti an increased consumption. Ile had heard that rat- I said the Chancellor of the Exe Meitter was particularly altaehtel
mount were abroad, stating that the duties on beer would be' this tax, int:Deflect( by a tare compliance with the feelings of
equalizsl ; but whether that were the case or not, the present I herded interest Ile would appeal to the House if this were rate.
question could not be affected by it. If the duties were etpialized, I purport of the llon.3lember's argument. The llomMcniber last Sff•
toe person who could afiiird to buy beer by the batrel would save ; sum used a magnificent expression reaperting the landed int.rest. lie
five shillings: but the poor man who was compelled to take table I snid he would expose them. For his eats he told the 11,in. 31ereer
beer, would not be one whit improved. The plain truth seemed that if any benefit eras to be derives! from it, he would he justi:led
to him to be, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer felt the in- lin doing so. Ile had given notice of motion upon this very ,Ob•
eeptality and injustice of the existing system ; but he feared, if IT Whirl!, on account of the illness of the liiaht lion. Geille war;
attempted to change it, that the country gentlemen would assail i he had not linnight fortenrel ; but which he left open to Ter,.g
him in the lobby, and not let him pass till he quieted their appre- : upon any ocensien he might thief: proper. He knew the (folk:1'1'
hensions. Ile (Mr. Maberly) highly approved of the new system • tics of the Ministers. and they might fail in rentilVing prenle'et%
acted on by the Right Honourable Gentleman, and his Right I whilst they were endeavouring to amend the hews. flee Ilan.
Honourable Friend (3lr. Iluskisson), and he gave them his full Member touched lightly on the subject of penalties attached to the
meaaure of praise; but he asked, where were they to atop, on what malt trade ; to fact nothing could he more muumuu. than these V:
mound. and when ? They preposed to deal out a liberal policy,a nattiest. By the plan. as it stall at present, the first payment 01
upon such articles as linen, silk, and wool ; and why not give the ; the malt deity was made payable in the mouth of October, and
it
benefit of a similar principle to beer? It any class of society were was desirable that the !mean capitalist should bring his article to
to be exonerated from the payment of duty. it should be the poorer the best market possible. This would he a total orpossibilitv
classes, who certainly did not find many advocates in this Home. the plan of the lion. 31ember were acted upon. [Here Mr.,la'
If the Right Honourable Gentleman did not make some alteration herly, amidst cries of '' Ort!er," eOilitlaiiird of being misnn4,
_eel"
relative to the beer duties, he would be decidedly acting in oppo.; stood by the Ilnuourable thither, as lie spoke of penalties attune',
nation to his own !Mend principles. If the duties on beer were not to molt, but to deleterious drugs.] 'I lie Honourable Member
eleualized, as he had said before, every man would Pith it his palate contined—that he opposed the. measure last Session, and be
and his pocket ;in fact, the Government should never legislate upon thought him I 1 el to propose soitiethieg better. lie did "
prices, which ought to be always left free. Another advan:sge as are of the ermneona experiment mule by the Government. Time
would result from such a !Isom, namely, that the skill of the motion ne,,el., by the Bon. 31entber heel completely (Piled. and
btewer would also be lett Ire:. It had often been said, when the trusted the Right Hun. (tootle:man world, on Friday. noun '--
question of reform was aoiteted, that no reform was nescess:,ry ; respecting the article as it affected the consumers

' The duty paid by the plate brewer, or rather by the labouring
classes who consumed the public beewer's beer, stood thus :
The duty on a quarter of malt wet . . LI 0 0
The additional duty 00 3i bane* the produce of a quar-
ter of malt, at lits. per barrel, was . . I IS 0

Making a total duty per quarter of - 2 15 0
which, divided as before, by three and a half, the number of bar-
rels brewed from the quarter, raised the duty that fell on the con-
sumer to 15s. Bid. per barrel. (Hear, hear.) By the return of
malt duty received in England and Scotland, in 1823, it appeared
that the total amount of malt consumed was 27,268,100 bushels.
Of this amount he calculated that 16,755,757 bushels were con-
sumed in breweries, distilleries, and vinegar works. There re-
mained, therefore, for private brewers, a consumption of 10,532,623
bushels. It was necessary to state how he arrived at these conclu-
sions. He had founded them on the returns laid on the table of
the House, but not printed, stating the quantity of strong beer
brewed last year to be 6,212,744 barrels, which he calculated was
equal to a consumption of 14,200,557 bushels. The return of
table-beer was 621.100 barrels, which he calculated was equal to a
consumption of 1,995,200 bushels. He believed he overrated the
consumption of the vinegar works of England and Scotland at
560,000 bushels. His whole calculation stood thus :
Consumee for strong beer - - 14.200,557 bushels.
table beer - 1,995,200
vinegar 560,140