The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1819-12-15 00:00:00

PENRYN.

On the motion of Sir C. BURRELL, the House went isle
a Committee on the Corners Bribery Bill.—The Dill pasted
through the Committee, and the Report was brought up sad
ordered to be received to-morrow.
COURT OF SESSION.

T'e LORD ADVOCATR gave notice, tint he should move
on Thursday next fur leave to bring in a Bill to regulate
certain proceedings in the Court of Sersion, Scotland.

EXCISE AND CUSTOMS.

Mr. D. W. Dauvew said, that seeing an Hon. Gentleman
connected with the Treasury (Mr. Lushington) then in his
place, he begged to himw ahelher a Board appointed to in-
qiiire into abuse* its the Racine and Customs, had not been
engaged in that way for tau years? He h.sped, if the fact
were so, that the House would be favoured with a copy of
their Report*.
Mr. LIMBINCITON replied, it was very true that the in-
quiries had beet) going on. but had not yet arrived at such
a satisfactory conclusion that the result could be communi-
cated to the House. When they should have been so far
advanced, no time would be lost its ,laying the necessary
papers on the table.
NI,. D. W. HAftvrit intimated something respecting
motion on the subject, which was out distinctly uuderstuod
in the gallery.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
Lord PALILERSIoN laid on the table papers vela.
tive to the Army Service fur the year 1820. The
Noble Lord said, that these were merely abstracts
of the estimate;, which it had not yet been possible
to make out fully. On the information, however,
afforded by these, he meant to move the votes for
tlia service in the ensuing year on Fliday next, and
an Hon. Friend of his not then in his place intend-
ed to move the votes fur the Ordnance Service on
the same night.
Mr. TIERNEY inquired whether the papers laid
en the table contained the estimate of the total
number of men to be kept up during the ensuing
year. including the charge for the augmentation of
the military fort*?
Lord PALMERsION said, that the papers which
he had brought up contained guestimate fur the in-
c.eroed face up to the end of December, and that
the charges on that account for the elisuing year
would be found tar the regular estimates; an that the
Douse would be in pos.e,sion of the total expense
the army cost the country in the year nearly elapsed,
sod for the following.
DISFRANCIOSF.MENT OF GRAMPOUND.
Lord JOIIN rtoe, pan,oaut to notice.
to propose resolutions for the di-franchisement of
the Borough of Grampound. and trasof,rritig the
right of electing Members elsewhere. He coin-
tiienced by assuring the Howie that it was not with
Ir-clings the most agreeable that he proceeded to
address them. No hok was more painful and 414-

tressing than to tell un individual of hie fisilis—and
if it was commonly loom' that it W 34 considered
invidious lowarils an individual, •till more invidions
vra4 it to uttrotitt to point out to than !lunar, and
to r%lnlot to tile piddle the defect:. tn commit'.

lion, anti 'lr_r the neee.anyof rrun..veng Orin.
II WM% ntspn..ll,llr nut 10 tier that ;It the ',learnt lime
there efilptriol rain-Me dewu eof 44444 nn (1.14

stitiject beteiresi Iwo parte.. in the State—the one t hers to Parilailleell. It I 'urn Ni) Member said %bat
waking an net:taping 'Armond, the oilier as MO- 1, there was no remedy for no usirepiesented itorsoi;4ll
%tautly returiii"g a ilesetsiptory denial toe nue lor town. and that there trap no mode which
looked fur the re-location of ionsgtitary and extritor- l places unrepresented you'd have Niriniwilt Alwyn is
divary priviirgrA. the ether would throw into obit- i them, lie p 11111 l ell to this Act of Parli.meni, which
ail those ri,tht, for whirl) the hl 1 a our an- he hoped would hr eig thorn aver to the euotrar;
eri•terii wit% x cheap equivaleia, for the sake of tior- lopinion, and prove to hem •Ins here liceo is iiiiss'e
.iivatiury and remitorary tteetirity.— by lisw ; mid if oei(:refl.-luau said that
If it were tweess.ary to tolvaitee soy am horny to give ;n partiettlAreoulity sir 15,011. tarred ;in is.cmivtisievve
coutitemmee to his preiwto 111 l lie might use the • from the waist of retireseatattee. bee..4l,e the. united
• authority of au : IlVisisilissf
iii4s. *valor 110111 t. Kelierally Nlernhers of the linuor rep's...retied the ei•liire kiiig-
Essminaudell 'treat authority in that i 4.1 1111 l itr alwishl pot et to this Art, which cep-•-
17752, %heir Mr. Pitt brought forward his Iltesoltt- crated the protelph , that the .ithirct nos ergissisirst :0
lions, which wire extremely similar to wale smsoug I various evils, damaxes, and tosses—wrol—by
Isis own, lie prefaced thawby a speed), importing, not having this privilege gristreJ lu tbt tri.7--(//egir.)

1,1

I
1
I

—He might *Mace another example of the smile
kind ; that of Ileverford-West. These changes in
the constitution of Parliament had gone on till the
lime of Charles IL in which reign a place had
been summoned by the Crown to send two Mem-
bers to Parliament, hut the right was then at first
disputed. After the Revolntion it had not been
considered safe to intrust the !prerogative of cluing-
tog the construction of one branch of the constitu-
licti to a distinrt-branch. This principle had been
more confirmed by the Act of Union—and he
believed it was now generally acknowledged.
that it was not competent to the Crown to add to
the nirisbere of the House of Commons. But one
bad consequence of the latter practice, respecting
the construction of the House, was, that small and
decayed boroughs had become PO corrupt as openly
to sell seat% in the House. insomuch that there were
several iiirtacces of their being aubjectrd to the
pnuishrnent of the House on that account. An-
other bad consequence was. that since the Practice
of changing the constitution of the
rinse had
been in operatioo, large towns had arisen, and
districts became filled with inhabitants. both
which remained unrepresented.—(Hear. hear.)—
An evil resulting from both which circumstsuces,
which he felt himself obhged to mention, was, that
the House ceased to represent the people so exactly
NA it ought. With respect to the corruptions pre-
trident in the small decoyed boroirglis. lie believed
they were quite well known—(hear)--and the House
had been, in consequence of each practices. com-
pelled la interfere in the cows of Shoreham,
Vricklade, and Aylesbury. But let them see
whether that system worked well, and whether the
boroughs which sold their seat every election con-
ferred any benefit on the constitution.—(llear.)
He thought it would be found that they did not.
Que of the Mat eOllllllOll practices among them at
a general el: ction wa., to send a depuistion to the
Secretary of the Treasure, who brought forward a
person willing to support the Government on all oc-
casions, and the price of the borough was paid.--
(Hear.)—This was one of the most respectable of
their modes of proceeding.—(flear.)—The person
elected voted 'trollop* according to the dictate" of his
conscience, hut always with the Minister.—(tkar.
h.ear.)—Other• made the obtaining of a seat in the
House a molter of private and interested specula-
non, and expended large sums of money on that
object.—(lleor.)—Their objects were entirely of a
tasivate nu.urr, such as to procure the payment of
a debt due to them or their relatives, or something
of that description. The consequence was, that
they voted for every measure proposed by the Mi-
nisters of the (ley ; they acquired the important
right of legislating; they possessed the most material
powers of sovereignty exercised by an abaolute
Prince, without being restrained by the check which
operated on him, the fear ore:l:immure and of shame.
Ills manner of voting was not even known to the
country, fur the list of the majority was not usually
published.—(llear.)—Private interest was the sole
principle of his acting, and he enjoyed the fullest
extent of vowel' with the impunity of secreey.—
Hear.)--The next evil was the growth and exist-
CAC, of large towns nut sending Metnbers to Par-
Lament. Ile should ,hew to what length this had
grown by three or four examples. In the year
1768. Manchester had but 23,000 inhabitants.
at the present day it had 110,000.—(Hear, hear.)
—Leeds, in the year 1775, had but 17,000 in-
habitants, in the year lass it contained 62,000.
Birmingham, which at no distant period was
N very trifling place, now contained 88,000 in-
habitants. Halifax and Sheffield. formerly towns
wt. ion consequence, contained. in the year 1811,
the former 73,000. the latter 31,000 inhahitnnts.—
(dear. (sear.)—Thie increase of places since the
Revolution was what called for tame interference on
the part of that House.—(hear.)—Great manu-
facturing and trading towns and district' had of late
years sprung up from humble begininngs, and con-
tinned to be unrepresented. It would be a great
consolatiot to all people connected with the maim-
factoring interests, and conscious of the evils under
which the country was suffering. to have these evils
described in Paoli-invent—that they should Ire able
to come to the WNW of Commons by their Re-
pietentettive, and there state the grievances which
affected themselves or the country at large. It
might be said, that time manufacturing population
wee sufficiently represented by the County II: em •
bers; but it was well known, that these were Gen-
tirtnen of totally different habits, and with differ-
rsit Intel eats: therefore, it was a great object to them
to return Members to the House—(Hear)—parti-
cularly when the Poor Laws and others, involving
the interests of commerce amid trade, came under dis-
cussion. lu the year 1788 it had been said, as an
argument against giviag Representatives to the
towns, Where are the petitions from Manches-
ter, Sheffield, and Birmingham ? Now he feared
that an argumert of a very different kind might be
urged ag lima them, and that it should be urged
they were ton clamorous. Should such a topic be
resorted tat, Fe should advance iu reply an obser-
vation made by the Right Hon. the Member for
the Oct* ersity of Dublin (Mr. Plunkett) on a
former occasion in favour of his fellow-countrymen.._
the Catholics—(Hear)—namely, that the House
hod certain duties to perform towards the subject
from which no act of theirs should divert them.—
If the House said to these people, You shall have
uo representatives because you ask them—if they
should come to such a decision he could hardly
afterwards look on it as the " exiness image of the
people."--(Hear, hear.) -The Noble Lord then ably
combated the idea that electimis by populous towns
would be productive of ill blood and animosity be-
tween the inhabitants und their representative, or
between one another. He thought it a delusion to
say that by any alteration soother House of Com-
mons could be obtained less inclined to war, or
taxation, the consequence of war. An inclination
to war. sad its coucuinitant expense, was a charac-
teristic of every free state. The Noble Lord in-
stanced this in the commencement of the American
and French wars. and the invasions of France in
the early periods of English history—in the history
of Venice and Genoa—in Athena and Rome. He.
then cited examples to prove that the borough more
usually aided with Government than the county
Members. and were more faithful guardians of the
public purse. He adverted to the formation and
cuoratitution of the Finance Committee in 1807.
Here the Noble Lord stated the three first Revolu-
tions. they are as follow
1. that it is expelled that all bereagis is which grata

uC
sotoriosa bribery and corruption *ball be proved to pes.
• alltisulti orolo to morn Members toorrve in Parliament;
prevision belie made us allow sorb of the Anton as shall
not 1111.0 bees moved guilt's.' the said offers*, to give voles
at nay election to he held for the county its whirl. such
boreoglis shall be respectively situated.
2. Thal it it rapetlient that the right of returning Ment-
he,. to serve le Parliament. so taken from any borough
which shall hove been proved to have beets guilty of bribery
and core-option. sh..tilti be River to some great town. the
popalstMn of whirl. shad not be less than lifters thousaod
souls ; or to some of the largest counties.
3. That it is the duty of (hie House to Co.lllBlllll' of farther
means to detect sail prevent corruption is the election of
Members of Parliament. _

It was. he said, the opinion of many persons that
the state of any borough accused of corrupt prac-
tice. should be referred to the consideration of a
Committee. on the principle of the Grenville Act,
and if the. Committee reported that the borough was
guilty of gross corrup , then that that borough
should be disfranchised. He was himself of the same
opinion ; he also thought that every facility should
be given to the detection of corruption at elections,
the complaints of persons on this head who were not
candidates or freemen of the borough should be reu.
dily received, and immediately acted on. Oo this
point he hoped ass lion. Gentleman. the Member
for Montgomeryshire, would give his opinion.—
The fourth Resolution was relative to a particul4r
borough, it was in the following words :

4. That the &roues of Grampoiand, in whieh groat snit
notorious corrnption has twin proved to portrait, do erase
to send Members to this House.

It appeared to him that the borotti4ll of Gram•
pound lied, by acts of gross corruption. forfeited
its franchises, and that those franchisee should be
transferred to other plaices. He was nut fur trims.
ferring those franchises to the adjacent hundreds,
but to popular and manufacturing towns, which
were unrepresented. Ile might be asked why, if
he took away the franchises from convicted boroughs,
he should stop there, and not take them away from
unrepresented boroughs ? He would state in a few
words the reasons why he was not disposed to carry
the proposition further, at the same time that he
was quite free to ray that the extent of the measures
he now proposed ought not to be the extent of
reform to which the House should go—on the coo-
teary, he would always wi►h to hear future amend-
ments proposed in the state of the representation of
the country, and when brought forward with pro.
priety, and founded in reason and in policy, they
would always have his support ; but he did not
know of a principle of reform which could go fur-
ther without disfrauchising the boroughs altogether.
Undoubtedly lie could not but consider thatße-
form on the principle contended for outside of
doors would amount to nothing less than a recoil.
struction of the House of Commons. He was tint
a friend to that specie% of Reform ; he would not
lean on the arguments brought forward at different
times on this question by many great and eminent
nien to whew the danger of a House of Commons
sway►d by popular demagogues; lie would not lean
on Owe arguments, though he thought they were
entitled to great weight. Jrwas not borusiglimongers
or their apologists, but men of great character and
of great talents that saw mthe present system both
order and wisdom. The constitution of the country
bad but few principles—they had not written char-
ters like other countries. The constitution was that
of King. Lords, and Commons. He knew of no
other addition, except the peculiar construction of
that House. That House was constituted from
time immemorial of counties, cities, boroughs, and
towns. Such was the consiructiou of that House
when Monterquieu held it up to public admiration
as one of the most perfect nod the most beautiful
parts of a free gover 1111 l rid ; such was its con-
struction when Lord Somers had laboured to esta-
blish the Resolution. IVas Montesquieu mistaken
in his praise, and did Lord Somers labour to
achieve th• Revolution, merely to uphold a system
of rotten boroughs ? Did those illustrious patriots
who died in defence of the Constitution He the
reign of Charles 11. uphold nothing. aspire to no-
thing, but the system of the boroughtnongers? He
would never come to such a conclusion. He would
maintain the principle of counties, cities, and ho-
►oughs, being represented in that House. He
knew of no precedent, of no experience, to in-
duce them to form the House of COSWIIDne on
the plan of *form ruffrage.—(Hear, hear.)—
Spain in the 15th cesitury had a free constitution ;
there the principle of uniform suffrage prevailed—
the power went into the halide of the Aristacracy,
mid what did they do ? —they did not influence the
return of representatives'. but they forbade the re.
turn of any. The Cortes then had but few !Mem-
bers f the rent towns, and when the strugk le
came between the Cotten and the King, the Aria-
tocracy sided with the King, and the consequence
wee the subversion of the liberties of Spigot.—
France was snottier case. but the core of that
country wise slot one which he would hold up to the
imitation of that house. Were the House to adopt
that principle, their act would be a commentary
on the sits: y of the magic limp. where the man
having lost it, he went round Uniting new lamps for
old ones. Ile could Hot help thinking in his fund
achniretiuti of the British Constitution, that it lied
a magic effect—it bad produced happiness aid
freedom for many an age. A smiling laud grew up
under its influence—a laud where the palaces of
the rich were not contrasted with the wretched hubi.
tattoos of the poor, but dwellings where the ir►ha-
bitants possessed equal privileges and equal pro-
, tection—a constitution which had produced men
of great talents on every exigency of the state,
wheueser any question of public policy was dis-
curved in that House, persons of astonishing *bilis
fire, of extensive knowledge, of profound views,
were to be found on one side end on the other. He
might he permitted to observe on some particular
set.. On the question regarding the state of the
poor, and on the state of the criminal laws, persims
were not wanting to desoie the must useful
talents with the most patient attention► to ameliorate
the condition of the people. He would not ex-
change the ancient con 1111 l ditto of that House for
the new. unsettled. and impracticable theories of
moderi. Reformers, for schemes which ',meld de-
prive them of the remaining treasures of the Con-
stitution—treasores which lie acknowledged had
beeu wasted and ill applied, but what renowned of
them were dear, and hr wee Mil for potting them
in the lottery•-wheel of new constiintions.—(Hear.
Aeter.)—Befure he sat down, he had but one word
more to my : it was, to implore of the House to
adopt, if not the proposition before them, at least
solar proposition which would inspire confidence,

and which would sheer the people thit the Parli
• meat wisl►rd to treat them with conciliation and
with kindness. The history 4411 free states, par-
toculaily of that state over which Machiavel threw
the light of his genius, proved this great poli-
tical truth, that in the progress to perfection.
the basis of public liberty was constantly enla►ged,
and the voice of the people hail its tffo-ct in
the deciaiot► of the Governineut ; but in the pro-
I gress of decay parties were found to deny the
people every thing—and the people, deprived
of their privileges, became violent and disaffect-
ed—sod, in the end, row party ur other was put
down by the sword. It was the blessing of a free
constitution, that those who formed the government
felt also a love of liberty ; but when those oho
cherished a love of liberty felt no interest in the est-
ill i l goer,. ttttt eut, the nation had arrived to a *tate
of civil dissension and of constitutions! debility,
and it only remained for an ambitious King, or an
ambitious general or deinagogoe to extinguish the
last remaining light of freedom. Possessed of ordi-
nary talents and address, such a mow, in such a
stale of things, might extinguish those liberties
with as much ease as the lights of that House were
extingiiis:ord when their debates were Offt'f.
Lord No1)1 *NAM said, that in rising to second
the Retiolut. of his Noble Friend, he would not
go over the groomd which his Noble Friend bad so
ably traversed; he would not detain the House
by laying down principles, but would confute him-
self to the question before them ; hr came to the
consideration of that epirstoon with sonic emba►►ass.
ment, but if lie could prove thdt the system of
which his Noble Friend complained was bad in
practice as it was erroneous io theory,—(llear.)--
then he would turner at some useful result. Re-

bisecting the system of boroughs, he believed he
might lay down as an abstract proposition that
could not be denied, that the franchise was a trust
confined to au individual for the public good, not
for leis own particular benefit, and that the represen-
tative he might send to that House was bound to
stand there as the representative of the nation ; and
if, on elections, individuals were found guilty of
corrupt and gross practices, they abused that
trust, and the forfeiture of the trust should
have been au irevitahle consequence. The fran-
chises thus taken away ought to be transferred
to other places not represented—to those places,
which, in point of property and of popula-
tion. comprised a large portion of national wealth
and interest. Such a inearure would give much
satisfaction, and would, he was convinced, have the
best effect even on the deluded persons who now
canted so much agitation. In giving representa-
tives to the large rearinfocturing towns he could see
no danger to the constitution : in leaving the frau.
chins iii the hands of obscure and corrupt boroughs
he saw much to weaken liberty, and nothing that
you'd raise the dignity or independence of that
House. Ile did lint see on what ground individuals
were deprived of those rights. which, according
to their 'onion in Society. they ought to pos.
.ets. Such a practice was • positive departure
from the principles of the constitution. But a
Member who came into that House by virtue of •
deed of bargain sad sale, who purchased with a sum
of money his Peat in that House, such a man might
be an honourable mils, a. a private gentleman he
might be irreproachable, but he no. any thing in
the world but a proper Member of Parliament.—
(Hear. hear.)—Having said so tnueh on the nature
of the defect. he would now beg to examine for •
moment the initiate of the remedy that ought to be
applied. Suppoying that his Noble Frtend pro-
posed to extend the franchises to the adjoiraing
hundreds, he thought the House should not allow
an act of that kind to pass over unobserved.
He would only brooder abuse from one place to
another; it might loner the price of cnrruption,
but it would increase the market—exiendisog the
franchise to the hundreds would have the effect of
increasing the riot and confusion of general elec.
tioos ; in some enmities, in that of Cornwall fur
instance the candidates would grow so Numerous.
that the electors wonid be obliged in many in-
mauves, to read the Riot Act on their mob of
torinhere.—(A larogh.)—Upon the whole, the
course which he would be most anxious to pursue
was this. to wend the franchises to the large ma•
nufacturiog towns. those placer which are now ex-
posed to so much danger, which swallow the
noxious drugs of political quacks, who feel little
anxiety fur the health of the patient. They
(the Parliament) were the regular physicians;
and what ought to be their first step in order
to convince the people that there were other
means of reform besides the panacea of universal
suffrage? They ought to extend to flourishing and
populous towns drat representation wbici they
illuatrsted so well. This species of parliamentary
reform would be of material benefit to these towns;
they were at present in • magma state, and breathed
noihiog but pestilence around them. Why was it
that they were the victims of delusion ?—why was it
that the- people of Manchester, Sheffield, and
Leeds. were so ready to swallow the dose of univer-
sal suffrage ? Clearly because they were uurepre-
sented. When their glare was compared with be-
roughs in Norfolk, Derbyshire, sod other places
which possessed the privilege, it was still more
manifest that the unrepresented towns were to-
flamed by a sense of their exclusion from the
common rights of the constitution. The plan
of his Noble Friend, as brought forward that
night, was, lie thought, free from all objec-
tion. It broached no proem' principle of reform—
it pledged the Hooey to no particular inquiry—it
stood ou its owl' 'sterns, and appeared to him to be
great remedy against the progress of corruption.
He therefore thought the proposition of his Noble
Friend ought to he supported. Ile had slightly
Khmers' at the good consequence of adopting that
proposition, lie would now say • word on the coil-
sequences of rejecting it. To reject such a motion
would, he feared, afford too clear a proof that ray
plan of reform, however mild, however temperate,
and however practicable, would never be rterierd
in that (louse. Such a decision lie would deeply
deplore. as milling in his mind would tend mute
to weaken their authority, acid to give life sod vi-
gour to the cliseffected. It would give a shuck to
the internal constitution, not the less dangerous be-
cause it might mot be immediately perceived.
It was 'lot on the outstretched arm of autism ity that
the goternaient of u free clammy could depend—
the hearts and the affectiuns of the people were the
only true foundation of a free goveromeut. If that

foundation were iuierinined, it would be is vain
to uphold it by teinporary expesdients: retch ex-
pedients would only destroy its balance and acce-
lerate its NIL The Noble Lord concluded by
thanking the House for the attention he received.
and sst down amid the loud and general cheering
or the House. . . .

Lord Cetret.encrioit commenced by observing
in terms of prune the manner in which the No-
ble Lord brought forward his motion. He had
taken up the question with great moderation. but
there were difficulties connected with the subject
which it was not easy to avoid; and certainly the
Noble Lord appeared to him to have fallen into an
error common to those wheradvocated principles of re-
form. Ile connected the question with general topics.
There never was a period when a greater degree of
morbid sensibility prevailed on the question of reform
than at the present moment. and as far us he could
observe from what passed nuteide of doors, the mo.
Lion of the Noble Lord was not likely to give much
setisfiction ; but with respect to the general rea-
soilings on the question, when they came to under-
stand themselves. he hoped it would appear that
there was but little difference on the point between
the Noble Lord and himself as to the practical mode
of proceeding, and he for one would be glad to
prove that there was little difference of opinion in
that llonse as to the real principle. The proposi-
tion of the Noble Lord was, that if any place send-
ing Members to that House should be convicted of
en( rupilo.l to that extent at to affect free election,
sat then those places should be deprived of their
franchises, and that those franchises should be
transferred to those places poesnsiog more of ge-
neral confidence. To that plan he had no sen-
timent to oppose—on the contrary. he was anxi-
ous to support it; indeed, it was • practice
which was recognised and which prevailed in Par-
liament—it was supported not only in theory but
in practice as fully as the Noble Lord could carry it.
sod had mily been prevented from being carried
into effect by judicial difficulties which lay in the
way. In the course of the last Session there were
ern less than four cases where the principle had been
admitted by bath sides of that House, and lie be-
lieved that in one case a Bill had been actually
sent to the other House. He would, therefore, ap-
peal to the Noble Lord whether, upon those occa-
sions, he had not received the cordial co-operation of
that tidal of the House to remedy, in these instances,
the abuses incident to the style of the representation.
In the course of the present Session a similar ques-
tion was intended to be brought forward by an Hots.
Member, and the only difference between him and
that Hon. Member was es to a point of time, as lie
saw it would be then inconvenient to bring the par-
ties up to town. As to the particular borough
mentioned in the Iterolution, lie had no difference
of opinion with the Noble Lor,(l, assuming that the
fact of corruption wad clearly proved against it, and
certainly there was no disposition on his part to op-
pose the Noble Lord in any measure he might bring
forward relative to that burough.—(Hear, hertr.)—
in the case of Grampound there was no difference
of opinion between him and the Noble Lord. but
supposing that that borough was disfranchised, the
next question was, how these franchises should
be disposed of ? lie, for his own part, would not
pledge himself to any particular principle. He
thought the Noble Lord had unnecessarily at-
tempted to create a permanent system as affecting
the representation, which, in point of true wisdom,
he wiriied to avoid. lie extending the representa-
tion of those boroughs to counties, a strange
anomaly would occur, that of the electors of
boroughs voting for county Members. If the
Noble. Lord would move for leave to bring
iu a Bill for the disfrenchisemeot of the borough of
Grampound, and for those franchises to be extend-
ed to such places as the Legislature. under all the
circumstances, might think fit, he would not be
disposed to look on that Bill unkindly. but he
would not give countenance to any general ab-
stract proposition which might go further than
the Noble Lord was aware of—further cer-
Willy than he would wish to carry it—namely.
to best down the representative system itself.
Whilst lie was disposed to admit the system of
representation of countiet, cities, and towns, bore
a great and important character in the general state
of the representation. he would yet protest against
the admission that the whole of the wisdom and
virtue of the House resided there ; by such an ars.
gument it would follow, that every part of the
representation (list did not come within that class of
counties, cties, and town., were vile and impure.
He hoped the Noble Lord would give one proof
more of the temper and moderation with which he
brought forward the question, and that it would
not be looked on as a torch of discord, when. in point
of fact. the House was anxious to co-operate with
him. He hoped the Noble Lord would take •
particular cases and bring in • Bill to meet it ; the
House no doubt would meet every case of corrup-
tion in particular boroughs, as often as they
occurred. lie hoped the Noble Lord would pur-
sue a peaceful remedy, amid that the blouse
would not dispute upon mere shadows, wheu
substance, and difficulties, and %angers sur-
rounded them. He had no doubt but that the
Noble Lord wished to preserve the Constitution,
and wished to oppose the wild and pernicious eye.
tems of those alto, under the name of Reform,
aimed a blow at she Constitution itself ; and there-
fore it was. that he expected the Noble Lord would
confine hinriaelf to a fair, moderate, and practical
view—a.:sl, without infrioging on established prin-
ciples,. that he would content himself' with correct.
ing evils when they occurred.
Mr. TIERNEY smith be saw no great force in the
objections urged by the Noble Lord. It might
appear an anomaly in au elector of a borough voting
fur a comity Member, but he did lint consider it
an incoilversicsit done ; he did not think any
County Member weiseld feel Isis dignity lessened by
it. but he would gore lip the poilit to 11w Noble
Lord. His object in puremit of reform was, to get
all he could. lie understood the Noble Lord to
say. that if his Noble Friend would bring in a Bill
for the disfranchisement of Grompound, and would

let the franchises lw transferred to some other place,
that the ribble Lord at least would not turn
his ear from that nsessure. There were two
places to ss hich the franchises might he given
—to counties, or tn, populous places. He was
decidedly of opinion that they ought to be
conferred on the latter. Circumstances, sad,
shove all, the progress of mattufacturm Itu.~

the situation of different places; they had taken
from the population of one place, and increased
the population, lte extent, mid the wealth of others.
Hence the situation of Maneht.ster, of Halifax, and
of Leeds; and those place surely, so important ~,d
so populous, ought to he represented in tort
House. Such • measure would, at least, do one
great good ; it would tend to produce the
great blessing of conciliation. The Noble Lord
sad Mr. Pitt acted on this principle, with respect
to Ireland. In Ireland, ■t the time of the
Union, a great number of boroughs were (Its.
franchised, not for acts of corruption, but ett
a matter of state policy ; in that instance the
Noble Lord had chalked out a plan of It-form
the smaller boroughs were extinguished, and mil.
important totems were left remaining. As
it
was in Ireland so it might be pnictised here,
and the elective franchise taken from corrupt
boroughs ought to he transferred to large and [so.
pulous places. lithe town of Leeds, for imtaitce,
were mimed in the Bill of his Noble Friend,
the Noble Lord would probable have no ohjec.
Lion to extend the elective franchise to that
place. He was inclined to hope that his No..
ble Friend would act in the spirit of r.pricilistinit,
and would close with the proposal of the Noble
Lord. It was, in fact, the best symptom he had
sten since the commencement of the Sesaiati, and
he hoped it would ha►e the effect of hohlinx out
the country the encouraging hope ttla:
mem was not insensible to the complaint, ul L:
people.

" Lord CAITLEREAGIII explained. He wished to
say that he did not bind himself to any specific
measure ; butt if the Noble Lord brought iip
Bill, he certainly won'd not oppose any thing in
the mature of m practical remedy.
Mr. Wl's?' thought that the 'particular case of
Grempound ought, in the first instance, to be di..
posed of, before the House entered into the coati.
deration of Guy measure of • gentral mature.

Mr. VALENTINE BLAKE was proceeding to en.
trr into en historical detail of the state of the Eng-
lish and Irish borough., when lie was so iriterropted
by expressions of the impatience of the House, sad
loud cries of •• Question!" that lie desisted.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose to return his hest
thaiika to the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Ca 501,...
reagh) for the manlier in which he food expressed
himself on the present ocotillos,. and also to corigrs.
tulate the House on the result of this night's
debate.—(Hear, hear.)—Fla was ready to coulee.,
that during the fast Session he had received,
throughout the inquiry respecting the Ism/nigh of
Grampound,every assistance from the Noble Lord,
and on the present occasion he was equally ready
to admit that the Noble Lord, in what he had mid
to-aright, had goue even beyond what he expected
from hint. Ile now understood that the Noble
Lord had no objection in principle to the disfran-
chisement of the borough of 6r:impound, nor to the
transfer of the right of election to some gre.it fossil.
He would therefore, with the leave of the I I.iuse,
withdraw his present Resolutions, and in their room
substitute a notice. that shortly after the holidays
he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to dis-
franchise the borough of Grainpotind, sod transfer
the right of election to some great town.—(Crier of
•• Rejure the holidays !")—The Noble Lord, 141
obedience to this call, fixed Thursday next fur Ins
motion—and added. that though in marry instances
it would be desirable to extend, when an opportu-
nity offered, the representation of some of the large
counties, yet that he thought at ',resent the claims
of the great towns were stronger and more urgent.
ailso thought that the question of
population was not a paramount one in settling this
subject, but should he considered together wir+
merry other circumstances.—(Hear.)—The Noble
Lord then moved for leave to withdraw his Maio-.
fut .

Lord Mtvrox rejoiced in the result of this de-
bate. and equally so at the readiness with which his
Noble Friend withdrew his Resolutions; some of
which propounded certain general propositions which
it would be as well to keep out of the present con.
sideration. It was certainly a flatter of deep con-
sideration to decide upon the particular place where
the new elective right should be placed. He was
ghid, however, to see the general principle admitted
by the Noble Lord opposite.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, dna he did not pledge
himself as to any particular course respecting the
general principle ; the only admission he made win,
respecting the general manner of diiquming of the
present question. On the melds of the particular
case, he did not think they could act dauXemu•ly
in conceding nue of the points contended for by the
Noble Mover; but he by no tritons admitted the
general application of the principle. Let each case
be considered with a view to its owu particular
character and merit..—(Hear, hum)
The Resolutions were then withdrawn, and notice
of motion fur Thursday next fixed.