The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1821-05-19 00:00:00

MANCHESTER OUTRAGES.

Sir F. BURDIEFT presented a Petition from Richard
Stoddart, potter mail earthenware-dealer, of Staffordshire,
complaiwing of gross injuries and outrages which had been
inflicted en him on the 16th August, 1819, at • public-
house called the St. Viuceut, kept by Mrs. Booth, at Men-
cheater. The Petitioner represemed that he was in the
habit of travelling to Manchester with his were, for sole;
that ow the day 'motioned he bed put them all away we
accouut of the great crowds that there were in ass &pout
the town • that he was sittiug in the room of the house
raeutione, in erlalch he always lodged during his stay,
and that he was turned out viulmitly, with the rest
of the company, by the coustablee, who came in
to clear the house; that he renauestrated and informed.
She constable that it was his losiging.place, and he
was not sitting there to drink; that this plea did sot
rail him, but be was throat oat of doors, where lie had no
sooner arrived thaw he was attacked and desperately cut in
the head by a yeomanry trooper, which had ever since in-
gapacitated him from earning his bread or providing for his
family. The Petitioner finally stated that he was too poise
pp seek a remedy at law, and if he had the means,, he had
little hopes of so obtaining redress, although he could prows
every averment which he made in bra Petition, and would
do so at the bar of the House, if the House would uudeo-
take a general inquiry into the fatal duinge of that day,
which was the object he sought by his Petition.
• The Petition was laid on the table.
Sir F. BUR HEW, iie moving that the Petition be printed,
wished to contradict an asarrtiou which had bees made by
the Solicitor-General the other night. It was very hard
apon parties out of duals, that Miulatcre should undertake
ta make declaratives concerning them which were wholly
• anfunaded in fact. The Solicitor-General had undertaken
So deny • statement which bad been made by Mr. C. Pear-
ma. of • was who had been turned out of the Manchester
latiewsavy, with. his wounds undressed, and without kis tort,
because be would nut confess to the surgeon that he was
tarry for having beets present at the meeting of the 16th.
Now he had, since that denial of the Solicitor-General, re-
ceived confirmation, of the •utlautity of which he could not
doubt, that Mr. Pearmiatt gement was correct, mid that the
Solicitor-General's child V Win/Hy snitoundtd and=
at,i„„,. He really thektight ' a practical( auk*
ieb.
tio, not likely to lemmas I vcaeration is which the pub.
Ile held the }Vim-
air. DENMAN took this opportunity of explaining an-
other eircwasialices 'Lich bad been alluded to by the Soli-
citur-Gerranis Irtri :lad described an application made by
Mr. Pes4o.ll to the Court of King's Bench far a criminal
lefurm44lso against Mr. Borrand, to have beets so little to
the taste of the Court, that they punished Mr. Pearson
by settling the whole of the costs awns laim. The fast
was, that if any one was to blame iii that affair, it was
himself, and net Mr. Pearson. Thu complatut against
the Magistrate was, that be bad reflsed to weir, a deposi-
tion as to murder committed on the 18th August by the
yeomanry cavalry. Ile (Mr. Denman) had recommended
an application fur • standaugags ; but it was represented that
the conduct of the Magistrate in question had been so
outrageous, that be should be made an example of by •
criminal prosenition. The Magistrates had said, as it
was afterward proved, that shou:d the nonedainws Maur
he would no longer object to receiving the deposition. The
Cowl thought this to be such a proof of moderation, that
they declared the inleiniatiou could never have been
grouted bad they known of it, as it folly removed blame
from the Magistrate. With dee deference, he could not
clamor with the opinion of the Judges The Magistrate
acted from caprice, auil bad refused the fulfilment of-his
duty, sod be could not see what alleviation there was to the
case against bim. He wished to correct another misappre.
beano'''. He had never held the meeting of Manchester to
he Millie legal or illegal. He thought that the epteitinsi wans
quite fall of distinettens, in which, if he held any thing, •I•
hail tapreiised his opinion that the meeting was legal !it
• regard to the greater aturiber of persons assembled. In •
opinion he was warranted by the Judges and Jury, be 4.. e
whom the ease had been tried : some of the attendants on
the meeting being convicted as having ntieuded it illvilly—
others ae9riiied, because no illegal purpose was inalotiste.t
against them by the evidence.
The Petitsou was ordered to he primed.

Mr. O. G. BENNETT moied for an aeroaroll of all Mem-
bers of the Rouse of Commons huiding Offices isr May, Is2l.
—Ordered.

METROPOLIS ROADS RILL

Mr. D. GILBERT presented a Pottwo from tie Trust of
St. Matthew's, Bethnal Green, in (atom. of this Hill.
Sir E. iLNATCHIWLL cutipatulkird he Hsu. Gentle.
man on ibis solitary instance ef ►uppun which his B II bid
received. Hr wished to knots at the same time, obits the
Dal wua to be brought on, as it Lad bees. a lung time Wore
She House.

r. 1). GI I.BERT sail, Hai .10U 11011141 suit him Arm,
than soy nth. r sows i hot the thidsaisce Bstiosates •ere to
Ditch a slats, that lbe moll hardly expert the Chanctlier oC
the E‘clirvirf it. allow him to proceed.
The CHANCLLLOK of she EXCHEQUER made some
objection to entertaining! she BIU at this coalmen'.
Mr. CALCRAFT said, that it would not occupy conch
woe to throw it sot, as that, he hoped, womld be its imme-
diate fate.
Per. H. GURNEY !aid • fear words to tspetri of the BO
?he Petition, wet oldettill to he rime*

gocnta Juno BILL laillials woUtfk Ite I. sery PropPr souk •—,_ Os ilislaselloa of Mr. AHERCROMBY, the ranks( Coo. to leave in their hands.
arderptipe.selihie WO was ?emptied collie obty.stuArothe. .....
lisial/INCELLOIII of the EACH F.QUEE mu* tbuy. ine rropiattom p
a*then agreed to. ;
the Onirt of tie May forth. Howse resolving 'itself Laws Another resolitipa map Own proposed by the
Casamitttoe of 'tap arid Pleas% be mare./ CUANCILLOR of the EXCHEQUER., respecting the
' li
Mer. cALcc
Reasti irr again, urged -the amodemig. a the repayment of Exchequer bilis, upon which a giant
tromslii OM. .
conversation arose between the CHANCRLLOR of the
W. p. GILBERT declined premiei tt, while tjta lud. • • . m: v.
.cic.REQUER, Mr. pARING, sod air Joys &N OP..
pos Of dot &elite:ryas le we a state.
mt. o.ltllNlif eiCommeaded the Moo. Neely to roe; about the Exchequer bills granted last year
soh* dem lio the fieektek... Every day was fell ofipticce up to refieve the Irish Books.. We cook' not collect
sitbe?Tit of May. Weirrodese and Frtdayo_ warn to be the observations in the gallery.
ihipedi asp ; aad be tam ea"dh of Ow CPrdeaaet sari-Str J. Newroar observed that the difficulties
. maw is be abte to assort the Hon. Illeilahes, that Int hod thrown in the swa b
so cisme of briar beard fp any ofthaw, clays, them y y the Commissioners rendered
, 4.. is short.' oo isr ko for hint buts iuy. ss, vbvisho
,the grant almost nugatory. Lie begged to be un-
..sis;ulsse the Howe io iiejeere, if he ioloOdrii to have. his derstood dist he meant to throw no imputation on
11111 Amused. He recommended hint Out to defer too these Gentlemen. With many of them he had
ail* to his Eight Hoa, Frieod ou his I.ft, but .as. he bid been acquainted. and he felt great pleasure nt
. 411Pallo lq• Ili opportunity, to clawed forward maanally, sod claim lie beariug testimony to their character ; but the House
.
must be 11,' that wheel - - -"'e greetest
_
- -

• COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS.
The Order of the D 1r was then read.
The CHANCELLOR of the ExcHtuuse. moved%
'that certain papers which he laid on the table, re-
lating to politic Balances, Unclaimed Dividends,
. ated the Augmentatiop of Irjsh Batik Stock, be
.41NPitg.".
- Jlial.ate tathaecaskiniaied altZes• tin', as to the period of
on the Spoiled Stamps Act ? the answer
to by the CHAticaLLoa of the Excite-
sages, mei Not heard in the gallery.
Mr. BARING said, that it was •messure of se-
, were taxation, instead of giving relief, the hopes
of which had been held out.
. Mr. Hmeg wished to have the day fixed for the
Spoiled Stamps discussion. He should move a.
lease which he lied iu vain offered to the Right
Hon. Gentleman, for reducing the allowance to
country distributors from 4to 4 per cent. While
the Right Hon. Gentleman was about to reduce
the town allowance from li to I per cent. lie would
not neglect his duty to the country, by doing all
in his power to reduce the allowauce to the country,
distributor.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
he could not then fix the day tor diecassing the
subject.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that these Bilis ought to
have been prepared before the Session commenced.
It was unjust in the Right Hon. Gentleman 10
take advantage of his own delay. The Spoiled
Stamm Bill was an instrument of grievous audit,-
messed taxation tinder the guise of affdrdilig relief.
Lord Mft.row had a word to say upon this Bill,
which he begged the House to look at. It proposes
ed relief to the holders of spoiled stamps. Since,
it had been introduced, thirty clauses had bee*
added, marked -from A to Z, then commencing
again A a, B b, C c; every one a clause of tax-
iitiOn : and a schedule annexed, which gave cont.
pletely new duties. It was necessary to know when
this Bill would come under discussion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
it wu not his intention to take the flume by sur-
prise in this matter.
1.-If-S.Oll between
Mr. DENMAN suggested some :i i i
the Bill sod the new list of clauses, which would
tend to facilitate the business of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, and leave the House the opportunity of
&cassia% the merits of the new measure.
The Swamis* then quitted the Choir.
On the first Resolution, for applying the public
balances in the Bank and unclaimed dividends to
the services of the year—
Mr. GRENEELL complained that nearly four
millions had been left in the hands of the &sok dar-
ing the whole of last year, by which the public hal
lost 110,0001. reckoning the interest at three per
cent.
Mr. C. SMITH justified the Bank and the Gear
verument for suffering these balance. to lie over.
Mr. J. MARTIN thought that • new list of due,
claimed dividends should be published. The foe.'
,tact list was seven years old. The crintitry might be
-.distressed, but it ought to be above withholding
flu property of these dividends from the r.glit ,
owners.
The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER did not
remember whether the Bank or the Government
published the last list.
Mr. BAKING said that the last list had been pub-
lished by the Batik, and he thought that the great.
est pnblicity should be given to them to enable
the proper owners to claim them. He considered it
a great misfortune that the name of the Bank '
bliould have been inserted in the Resolution, be-
cause
his Hon. Friend behind him could never
keep his lust for thinking on the public balances
when the Bank was named. He considered that
the country owed much to that great Corporation,
arid the balances were in general as low as
the state of the accouiit between the Bank and
the Government would admit. What he pries-
cipsilly wished to cull the attention -of the House.
to was this : great compensations were made
by the Bank to the public fur the charter,
and it was distinctly stipulated that they, *lion
they obtained it, *tumid be bankers to the Govern-
ment. And he hoped the House would tit all times
be ready to do the same justice to that Corporation
us to any other, whose Interests were intrusted to
*heir hands.
Mr. GREEFELL said, lie had distinctly &toted
that he had no intention to can blame on the Bank ;
all he contended for was, that we left too much
Monty in their hands, and this CUM could be cen-
*Pried to the public service, which would at lire.
*ego be i 1 the utmost advantage. There was no
more ienacii why we should not reduce the sum in
the hawk 14. the Bank, than any private itidtvidmil
slintilii do with his private booker ; and without
violatiog faith with the Bank, be thought that
three without df money could be saved to the
country.
Mr. Belli said, in - these

'us

*woe so, men, even of the ,
probity and moat unblemished characters, under-
take a public trust, they are often misled by their
judgment in the discharge of it.
Mr. GRENIELL said he had heard complaints
from 'reload respecting the Commissioner., and
as the other hand be had heard they had disposed
of the grant in every instance where sufficient se.
entity was granted.
Mr. SPRING Rica said, there were certain rules
laid down to regulate their conduct, and he wished
to 'have these rules printed, because he knew n
strong argument could be founded or. them ; and
he felt that he could chew the principle acted on
was Calculated to deprive Ireland, if not of the
whole, at least of a great part of the advantage it
nut intended he should derive from them. But
it must be remembered, that Ireland was differently
circumstanced from England. Their principal ca-
pital consisted in the landed property, and if the
security were. rejected, she must be deprived of
the advantages the Legislature had in view when
they made the grant. He made no charge against
the Commissioners, beyond the sluggishness that
prevented them from taking up the question in a
proper point of view. He could prove that relief
.wss denied ou the security of five persons ; way
further, in one instance, they refused the security of
the Government itself. He did not call on the
Chancellor of the Exchequer to abandon one single
pa&cle of public security, but he did call on him,
and earnestly, to devise some measure to make the
grant available to that impoverished country.
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER said, it
never was the practice of Government to interfere
with the Commissioners after they had been up.
pointed.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
The CHANCIALOR of the EXCHEQUER moved,
that a sum not exceediug 500,0004 be granted for
the Bank of Ireland.
Mr. BARING wished to know when it was the in-
tention of the Right _Hon. Gentleman (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) to lay before the House
the financial arrstigements of the present year ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it
would depend on the progress of the-supplies.
The House then resumed.
Mr. BROODEN reported progress, sod got leave
to sit again. -
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then mov-
ed the Order of the Day foe the House resolving
itself into • Committee, upon which
Mr. CIIETWYND rose. He said,' that at this
period of great national distress., when the eyes of
the whole nation were auxiouoly directed towards
the theist Council of the nation, in hopes of obtain-
ing some relief, it was melancholy to observe that
not a saving or a single shilling had been effected.
• If Ministers persevered in their present course, he
feared Irons some facts that had been lately dia.
closed, if they had not • Reform withins they
would have a Revolution from without. He trust-
-id, however, that no Minister would ever come
Jowls to that House with such Eslimates as
-bad bevy prettified this year. If such Evti.
motes were preiented next year, be should say
to the Minister preventing them, as the King
said when lie was therm the head of Charles
at Windsor, " Take it away, take it away, it is
too horrible to look at !"—(Hear, hear,
,hear.)—
Notwithstanding all the pledges given by Minister',
and all the promises made by various Members to
their constituents., there was not the least hope of
relief for the country, and there was no saying to
what !rug' hdistress, unalloyeelshy hope, might carry
the people. He had but lately returned from the
country, and from what he saw there he had eio
hesitation in saying, that if something were not
done, and done immediately, that most valuable
class of society, the middle class, the yeomen of
the country, would be completely annihilated.
They had heard le great dead since these estimates
had been ititroduced about placemen and pen-
sioners, and Lords and lay-Lords of the Admi-
ralty, of Commissioners and their deputies, corn,
spoudeng clerks, and he did not,lttiow what, iu the
various offices. What must be the impression
made by these statements out of doors? Must
they not inevitably excite discontent and disgust ?
--It should never be forgotten by that House that
it atm from the people they received that tnoney‘,
and to them they should give an account. For
these reasons lie should beg leave to move as an
amendment—
,. net instruction' be given to the committee, that from
a due consideration of the distressed state of Ike etsoutry,
they should proceed on a system of the moat rigid 'comity,
as far as the UMW maid be effected oil hoot detriomot to
the substaatial iuterests of the Empire."—(Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER raid, that
the gelleTel principles of the Hun. Gentleman no
man could dispute, but lie must deny that the
estimates were rxiiiivagaist.—(4 lough from the
f/pposition Beaches.)
Mr• MADERLY said it was monstrous to suppose

.pllnalion, thus

_

lowest. He thought Muleteer should follow the
I exempla of Mr. whose prime*. they profess
so eseterhain, and sot meet the poor thuging
system that leact lien practised of late yessa.—
(Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of LONDONaItIItY said, he ob-
ite°l94l4y eniAlabledn'tierelltleta.iisaeri.t9ro make liAligiShlsobeuicauldinge
apeeches, winch it was difficult to detect. He is
surprised to hese the Hen. Gentleman (Mr. id*r
berly). who must be so well acquainted with tbeise
subjects. assert that a saving of four millions could li
be effected. The whole expenditure emousited
but to twelve, and could he imsgiue that the coon-
try would be so besotted as ter believe that the Go-
verumeut of this, great empire could be conducted
for eight millions? .itt the Committee he wee
ready to meet Gentlemen on the various points of
the expenditure, but he must protest Nonni 414
general assertions.
Mr. htliZablf explained. He said that in the
collection of the revenue and the Civil List a
saving of four millionerould be effected.
Mr. C•LCRAPT.isaid, that night after night mo-
tions for reduction had been made, yet not one
shilling had been taken from the estimates,, so
strongly were they defended by large majorities.—
The Noble Lord ought not to have made buy al-
lusions to high-sounding speeches, for no man was
more fluent thee he was in his declarations of eco-
nomy ; but lie (Mr. Calcraft) would rather see
some reduction of this lavish expenditure, than all
the speeches of the Noble Lord, or all the resolu- •
tions of the Chsncellor of the Exchequer. He
thought the countr should feel indebted to the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Chetwynd) for the Resolu-
tion, as well as for the manner •he had introduced
it, and if he persevered he should give it his support.
Mr. HUSKIMN observed, shat the Hon. Gentle-
man who lied just set down had resorted to the old
argument used by all minorities—ettributhig im-
proper motives to the majority ; but surely in some
instance the majority must Wee been right, for,
unless his memory failed him, lie could ,reckon
amongst the majority the mime of the Honourable
Gentleman himself, and iu other instances he bud
staid sway altogether. With respect to the reduc-
tiou, it could only be effected either in the Civil
List or the collection of the revenue. Now the
Civil List is settled for the life of the King, atuk
therefore cannot be touched ; and although the
collection of the revenue was at all times a proper
subject to bring before the consideration of Par-
liament, yet lie apprehended it could, nut be given
as an instruction to the Committee.
Mr. Ca I.CRAFT explained.
Lord Mit.Tost agreed with the Honourable Gen-
tlemun (Mr. Chetwynd), that the numbers of
placemen arid pensioners who sat in that House
should he diminished. He should not remove the
Noble Secretary of State for Foreign A fairs, whom
he hoped always to see either in that. or the other
House ; 1101 would he rentoec the Chancellor- of
the Exchequer, whose preseuce was most necessary;
no more should he remove the President of the
Board of Trade. Bat if she Right Hon. Gen.
tleman (Mr. Huskisson) would cast his eye on the
bench behind him, as .well as to the bench mi the
floor, he would find some Gentlemen whose pre-
sence could be very well dispensed with.—(Hear.f
The language ramie use of by the Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. Chetwynd) was the proper constitutional'
.111euguage used by our. Micemtors in the 17th cen-
tury, and fit to be used by us in the 19th—for he
perfectly agreed with that Hon. Gentleman, if they
hod not it reform within, they must have it without.
ladeed there was at prevent a resolution going foe-
mord in the country : he meant a revolution its
.property, and in • short time he feared the mid.
.dliisg class of society would be completely destroyed
Mr that that wholesome distribution of property to
which this country owed its keener prosperity
Would be done away with. He was satisfied that
this state of things arose from the ignorance of
Ministers as to the state of the country.
Mr. Hume thought nothing could be morepreper
Akan these discussions on the waste of the public
money; and the Right Hon. Gent. (Sir. Huskisson)
might have spared the observations about the Civil
List; for he could tell him it was not for life, and
it should be brought before Parliament before an-
' *her year, for lie was surprised at the blindness of
the House in granting such an enormous sum. The
Noble Marquis (Lnaidonderry) had said, when they
wept into a Committee he should discuss the details;
byt when they had voted for the Tower and West-
minster the sum of 63,000/. more than in the time
of war, lie should ask the House what there was
to he expected from the Committee ?
Mr. Huseissom explained.
After which the gallery was cleared fot a divi-
mon, when there appeared—
• For the stsepintent
Against it

- ..- .

.

the 'whole of the salaries should be nto,fes Aich
would make the sum to be granted 10,070. 91.
Mr. Wawa said, upon the general question 'he
should observe, that idthOugh_the noosing/ setiries
of the clerks mod officers were very manly double,
that was the cave on paper it*. Frimerhilrei
had agrest number of perquisite, und
of which neither the House or the Flom Cie&lernan
cowl) know much. For instance, it had bees' cus.
tosnsey for thew bole of there officers to draw ration* '
of ptovisious for themselves sad faimelses. TAW'
was now abolished : so that formerly the alum.
Lion of a storekeeper was worth IMO/. mist!)
though it nominidly wes worth 5001. only. At
Ceylon the establishment had been conridera-
bly enlarged ; formerly there was only one—mbw-
there were three establialsinents at that Wwi.
With respect to Malta, at the time to which the
Member alluded, much old), bu.iness of the
Ordnance was done by the army. It was under
the consideration of the Msster.deneral to reduce
the whole of the desks of the 'storey, he would
not idedge himself that it would he dame, but Hie
Noble Luke had the matter under consideration.
The Hoc. Gentleman had given it as his opinion,
that the vole should he reduced, he could only op-
pose that by saying, that he was of u differtnt
opinion.
Mr. 13xmitirr thought he had seldom heard a
more dangerous doctrine than that which the Hon.
Member had now broached. He had stated that
s certain number of persons bad been accustomed
to rob the public for a great number of years,
and when the robbery was detected compen-
sation was made to them by the Government.
—This reminded loin, of a claim which was made
in soother place a short time ugo. The Magi-
strates of Middlesex found the prison at Co!d-
both-fields was infeorted with visitors of an im-
proper description, nll of whom cl limed admission
by virtue of Magistrates orders. It was discovered
that a clerk et the Public Office regularly handed
op the ordeis to the Magistrates for signature, and took a
fee for each. When It was found out and a stop put to it,
the clerk claimed a compeasation, and slated that bus prede-
cessors bad received the perquisite. He urged his claim,
but was (unlike these Officers of the Ordnance) positively re.
frsed it. He was sorry to observe that when questions of
economy came before the House they were resisted by a
phalanx of placemen. la thedieision which had just taken
• place there were out of rixty-ive persons no lea than .ibirly
pliteemen. That was a feet which the Haase and the cousitiy
ought to betaequainted with. He (objected to voting a single
shilling fur the losisu Islands, as it was expressly stipulated
to he paid nut of the revenues of the island.
Mr. WARD said be would not go at length into an an.
ewer to sweeping charges and unfounded assertions, nor exa.
mine into robberies (mood oat or picking of pockets, but lie
would con6ue himself lis defending the ehiracter•f as busiest
men as the Hon. Member himself—lie meant the offieers
abroad. He begged to say these was no abuse in the entis•
laments which he had alluded to. The perquisites wire al-
lowed by beads of departments as far bsck as the year 1756.
It was cossidered an improper mode of paying them, and
was in consequence abolished and the salaries raised.
Mr. BENN ETT said, if the Government allowed the prac-
tice, it was not the lady/ideals, but ibe Government, who
were the ruhliere.
Mr. WA RD and Mr. BENNETT menially explained.
Mr. JOHN SMITH said, the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume)
se far from dealing fa "weeping chirges, had made a lisle.
meat of specific fasts. He was proceeding to state his ins.
pension of what Mr. Hume bad stated ton a former evening,
when

Mr. BROGDEN (the Chairman of the Committee) in
formed the Hon. Member it was not regular to advert to a
former debate.
Mr. HIM E defended himself from the charge of hiving
made sweeping assertions, sod restated the charges which
be had made against the silficers at Sheerness, fur pillaging
coal,, and against Mr. Muter, storekeeper at Frvershaes,
on which latter occasion the Ordnmice Board let six months
elapse before they sent down to inquire into it. The Cut•.
missioners who were sent to Sheerness had suspended the
officers against whom the complaint had been made; soul
be had little doubt they had not been Queenborotigh
men they would have beets dismissed.
Mr. W. SMITH said, be had been informed that the Cape
of Good Hope, wheu it was in possession of Holland, did
net cost the Dutch Governmenct single sliver. If Holland,
with her inferior •oval force, could maintain that Colony
without expense, he saw no reason why it should be such a
heavy expense to this country.
Mr. WARD—He did not see how the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Smith) could say Holland had kept the Cape of Good
Hope with her inferior naval force, since England had taken
it. He repeated Isis farmer statements in reply to the com-
plaints made against the officers at Sheerness. The wood
which was taken was in cunsevence of a misapprehen-
sion of the Board's °Weis, abolishing the old perquisite
of wood. With respect to the Hossonurable .Member's
complaint. that the Board delayed inquiring into the
charge against the store keeper at fieversham, he as.
sinned that they did sot inquire for six months, because
they did not repair to the spot for six months, but the
fact was that a long correspoudence look place upon it,
which not producing any satisfactory molt, the Board *es al
length obliged to appoint a Commission. The Hun. Member,
-he harl ne doubt, believed the statement which he had made
that the person who made the charge against those orneees
was dismissed on that account, but be thought there was
orsoely another man in England who would believe it.
But he was 'misinformed by is person who was accustomed
to make charges. He accused tile storekeeper at Fest-raison
of forging false vouchers, on this foundation: the warder
*as, on • reduction of the establishment, melt eeil to labourer's
pay, which was regularly paid and charged ; but against his
name his quality of warder remained standing (the list being
• printed one), and on that foundation was grounded the
charge of forgery. He had also said the storekeeper had per-
mitted the labourers to be absent three hours a day to mow
his grass. The fact was, they were allowed, 011 recessuet
of the great hest, to leave off work for three hems in the
middle of the day, and they added three hours in the morn-
ing instead. The whole of the charges were so malignant
and so founded In perjury, that the Commissio•ers advised
the Board to dismiss him.

Majority
ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
On our return to the gallery Mr. WARD CRC on
his legs, moving that 14,631/. as. be granted to his
Majesty for pay of Civil Officers and Clerks in the
orduauce Department at foreign stations.
Mr. HumE said, he had only one observation to
make on this resolution. He found by reference
Costal' the establishments abroad were nearly double
what they were in the year 1808, a period of active
warfare, and therefore one observation would
apply to all, namely, that the increase was so
great, all ought to be reduced. Malta was in-
creased by four new clerks. Burbadoes from 487/.
Ras increased to upwards of 808/. At Ceylon the
Mt:lease was very great ; from 1.1501. which it was
in 1808, it was toned to 3,2701. At the lonian

Mr. HUM E observed, that the Hon. Getitletnan had ad-
itted there was what he called one irrtgularilY in the
wood, which was taken cnotrary to the most express and
precise orders of the Roani. The Illuo.Geotlentaa's speech
palliating such a proceeding, was an enemiragemettt to
pilfering, and She defence which he had made altogether the
most bungling which could lie conceived.
Mr. WA RR E thought the observations of the Hon.
Members for Shrewsbury and Norwich were deserving of
parlicolar attention. Advertiog to what bad heen said
(*tweeting the inquiry iuto the alleged malverestion at Fe-

IbtA

my make", he know tint is a Comeetiikee at Supply
we, geopeiest I. see UPI*? to flour We
at sad Subireg V4o,lloerni Orel Ike chi/ aotsbliolopoat, se •
tio athainiatriuioa of Joao* la ihmaland, or la soy, oglat
WI or kie Ns/eerie diernieigair.—(ther, brit.)
w. =ka 111 esplaigoil. •
The Committee sites divided as Oho Ameaslatem—
A•
ea
es

Deiotily Vida., the nniantlasent.... 31
Ilia original RemoMime was then agreed 10.
Da one remdmiasion,
Mr. WARD Gloved it rant of 50,0004, foe defraying the
lasidemial charges of the tower, and other forts, • s,
Pd places ender the Orthousee is Great Britain,
and Jersey.
Mr. GIPPS wished for some realisation as to the intro.
dimities' of a elmege. of 15,0001. fur beds, bedsteads, bed-
chug, nod other ectutiageaeie• for the barracks, which did
nut appear in former 'ultimates.
Mr. \YARD mid he could only repeat the explanation he
gee. of die same item last year. Formerly this viwerhargesi
under the head of Unpiroarted, itrol.was, duriug the war ro
continually crying, that it was almost impossible to make
the fixed estimate of the amount. But after the rewra of Om
army from France, and the sawing of the departmect
upon a pernisurat. peace establistoriem, they were enabled to
calculate very nearly what ?mss requisite, end it was rhea
thought proper to intr.:retiree it into the Ordinary, in which It
was atteed last year for the Ant time. Therefore, in point
of fact, although there was as apparent increase of 15,0001.
is the amount of the Ordinary, yet there was no actual in.
creme of expense, as there was a correspouding dimiantion
in the Unprovidid.
Mr. GIPPS said, he did not quite understand the czars
uation of the Hoe. Gentleman, amid would feel obliged to
hid, if he would take the votes more in detail. Ile thought
15,0001. an enormous charge in the 6th year of peace, Im-
beds and bedding for the artillery.
Mr. WARD repeated his former explanation, adding,
that the unprovidrd was the amount of debt Weltered, by
unforeseen expenses, ert.'ela were paid as they were Incurred.
out of Cu,.., nut specially provided by Parliameut for
the purpose, sort were obliged to be repaid afterwards by a
virus of Pro liament.
Mr. HUME contended that they ought to bare the par.
Healers of these estimates mitre hi detail; 15,0001. be sleitdit
have thought equal to the supply of bedding fur 20 years to
come. There was au item seaward M the tote tinder Mk.
eideration of 20,0001. for the pay of artificers., armourers,
watchmen, and latiorsrers, st the Tower, Woolwich, mod the
onf-elatnins, employed in landing and removing stores. He
Wished to know whether that Warded the charges fur work
of the muse nature at Gr J mad Tilbery Fort ?
Sir. J. SMITH said, he could nut saurtion KO large se
amount fur bedding. Ile wished also to know what the con-
twenties were that were merniuned under this bead—he
susitected they formed the largest portion of the vote.
Mr. GIPPS said, as no satisfactory explatiatiou had beet,
given, he should pr pose to reduce the 15,0001. for the
bediline to 10;0001 and to reduce the whole vote by,
23,0001.; and moved an amendment to that edict.
Sir U BURGH supported the original resolution.
Mr. HUME raid, be wished W know what was comprised
Ai the charge of 20,0001. 'which be bad beCere mentioned;
and he thought some explaantiou also was necessary as 1,4
the charge of 5,6001. fsr stationery. As there seemed to
beta detriminattun to withhold every kind of exp'anatiuu
of these Estimate, lie should oppose them until the par-
Sailors were foritished.
Mr. WARD said, there was no objection to furnish the
fullest isiformation If the Committee were unwilliag to
agree to the vote without seeing the parthrolsrs, he Institut
the smalltat objection to furnish the tradesineit's bills of the
last year. The 15,0001. for bedding and contingencies in-
cluded every-preessary expense in the barrette, except rusts
sod candles, which formed a separate item. If tt Pere takes
off frOm the Ordinary, it woald only serve to swell the
amount of the Unprovided next year.
Mr. GIPPS said, lIIISICSS the explanation which he had
before asked for wire given, he should meet the seduction.
Mr. WARD said, if the Cummittee refused the rote, he
most furnieg the tradesmen's accounts. In answer to the
question of the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Fiume), reseccie
jug the 20,0001. for the pay of artificers, he bad to state shut
it did include Gravesend and Tilbury Fort.
Mr. HUME said, that the method of slating it in the
Estimates wait must objectionable. Why was lint the labour
charged repent/4y for each station, arid the establislimerit of
each station set out, diet the House might judge of its
propriety. He complained of the establishment of store.
keepers •nd ch-rk of the eloper, &c at Gravesend and
bury, which cost the country 5701. a year, besidea
the lonises, and had no sconce to perform. It was an esta-
blishment of all masters and no men.—(Lawg/ifer.)—lt was
abetted to suppose that they wished the tradesmen's, bills tis
be produced; all they sewed was the 'mount of each sepa-
rate charge, instead of having a variety of articles lumped
together iuto one.
Mr. MA HEALY said, his objection was to the whole litig-
ates of administi sties pursued by the Nsible Lord opposite
led his colleagues. He thought the House ought to fix a
certain sum, and to tell the Ministers that if they could nut
carry use the government of the country at that rate, they
simsold resign. They bad been going on in too expensive a
rptena, which the resources of the country could WI !mixer
support; mid, as reduction must come some time or other,
the mouser it was effected the better. The Hon. Member
instanced the Store Department for the Navy, Arnie, and
Ordnance,a s a pregnant poor of the extravagance of the
system.
Mr. WARD said the attention of Government had been
directed to placing the Sloe e depailineut of the Nary, Ord-
nance, and Commissariat, under distinct Iteads,:and whateser
wrist could be effected would no doubt be tried.—(nsor,
hear.)—He spoke of comae generally, and without pledging
himself as to this or that Aire. The esisblishment at
Gravesend and Misery had been spoken of as extravagant
and useless. Bet it was a large magazine, containing
15,000 barrels of gunpowder for the supply of ammunition
to the ship, of was wise. they dropped down from the river,
. and he thought a charge of 8701 out extravagant fur a trust
which cost Government 70,0001.
Mr. BERNAL said. he understood that the ships of ear
in we river took in their stores beibre they roeched Graves-
ends He thought the magazine might, therefore, be re-
moved to Galleon's Reach or Purffeet.
Mr. HUME asked where the magazine in question woo?
fur lie understood there was nooe.—(Laegliter )
Mr. WARD maid, he must ',peat that there was a maga-
gine at Gravesend run Wining 15,000 barrels of gunpowder,
sad if the Honourable Member went down be might see W.—.
(Laughter.)
Mr. HUME complained of the distribution of anagsakoos - ,
at Purfleet, Tilbury, and (Pater Castle, when one w
answer the purpose, and save so many expensive seta
meas.
Mr. WARD said, it was onee intended to place 00,e
barrels in one magazine at Perfect ; bat when the mottle.
men and farmers of Essex heard of it, they made each rum
plaints of their alarm nod fear or explomoa, damage ti e
Board wills design to blow the Thames out of its bed, that:
tW were obliged to relinquish the design. Thus when they
Wished to fore a large magazine they had to twat .•
the hostility of the country Gentlemen ; and when raga,
ise took •
opposite
',Egypt/tisk,
aftermar4a
barraek
Mei the

41
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,ha
..whieh
lia__d_, ___ ,_,_ ___,..„. ....,,,....„,,,, .„ „.„. .—..— 7 ... rm. many virottemeo ; rend Whets tilt,. 1
in ioire. ii WBB Panto au %/OS /Vg• is. me 10111811 -
Mr. B*lll/10 said, in explanation, that there we could go on as we are at present. Ir these were Islands we bed now to pay 1,238/. Clerks of the
" spina the expenses( so mousy establislr.sents.--(Largisfet,
, engaged the Board in a six months cur- were compelled to distribute it into three or to
resteriponmdence, he thought the obvious mode would have berm rites bad the complaiwis of the Geotleven opposite
lams were given to the Bank es an equivalent for
the estimates proposed in time of peace, what cheque had been appointed at each of these to have scut some persons et once to implies on the spit,
conducting the public business. must see expect in time of war ?—(Hear, hear.)— Woods. He bad been informed, and believed, Fesereham was only forty miles from Loudon. and /war, Leer }+ klownitralsk Aleatbeg sfrenvalid
Mr. ituva said it would be uupptued, from the fie greatly feared that if Ministers persevered in that there was no occasion for en estdbliohment Mr. tiout.ouan—lf lie was to utidendand the stated, that in tbv dUkt imsioo the estiontni of the berrark -
' I'
IsAhrteras ite"wollirdn‘slifrorto% lir. T, TIMM Mr. GIPPNi
argument of the Hon. Gentleman :(Mr. Baring), the present system, something like whet had been exceeding 5004 At the Cupe of Good Hope dso Hon. Colenticioun dlio had joist sae.olown, be -bud re.Pee`e* dm" be. eel kith iii detail, so au to uteri ni. i
meted that under the Dutch Government thy bet-
awed Mi. J. SMITH, the Sisisawithse-111eMid ise. i tl,
that the 'lntik teas some poor company that bad described by the lion. Gentleman (Nlr..Chetwynol) Mere had been two or three new appoinimetota;
of Good Hope defrayed out .. .
11
slot it pipiiiing. It could out, howerer, be denied. millet occur. It would be too Inc to economise but he thought a elide at tail depot, to take .4--"telot at the Cape
01 its own resources the whole expense of its civil aud mot-. the. Avarua.
iliet since 1796 the Proprietors had divided be- when the bed interests of the country were sacri- care of the stores, would be eufficient. At Heli-
military establi!limeate :to that statement he must use an - '...
tweet: them twenty-six niolliotro. 11e should there- fiend. it wes hie firm persuasion, that if proper golind a storekeeper wet charged et an ex-ifet
. . augualilleit denial. P. - .
._"o' re
/
tt' re hope the Chanel-nor 01' the Exchequer would means were resorted to, four million/at least might prose of 2381. 10.. whnoe only duly was to take Mr W. SMITH , and the Chairman, itilim... attend to the 'suggestion of has tion. Friend (Mr. be saved to the cOnistry in the course of one year. charge of .the gunpowder for flung the morning Mr. BROVDEN, and, of coarse it was
sfor the teas_
___, ...o.l4efity VOA ths Assesepipuer..
.33
Gierifkll). Evers this would 8 &nay the people, nod restore that and evening gnu. Of all the votes he considered mitten to do as they pleased, but he would pia it to them, Iles 1100ohatios was lam So.. .• 1
Mr. CALCRAPT observed that the Bank were el- conlidence which every man who low his country this se the must extravagant, particularly as the •hretherholl • ques.iontr the
.grant Of a
of
sum ia Taft own assahosail was, for ?ASSN. Ithi.**d.'"
li:
iterfeli.i
.ei.ezpliewse of Ise
acivitt tribees
l elk.Oriiii 'elect in for the lialeisepiet per tor the thavereart . . Jpo.
lowed ‘270,000/. is year fur ctinducting the affairs of must wish to see establielied.—(fieur.Aear.J-1 hue individual (Mr. Armstrong) was six mouths in theoloratealear to
i. eater Ss lo a iinwie,woui, wattaimilei,unithall.:4s.7 et credit , . Aphi, of retrenchment should conu.;ence with the highest year in England. The Hdn. Member concluded discuniuo of ;In anstpsere Coiweami," "
the Gavernmeist ; and, without wishiug to draw the
wing, on the Bank tan tight, he thought that out offices of the States audpfikeed downwards to the by proptanag that a reduction of one.fourth from Lord MILTON said, whopper-might be the *plait). of Mr. HUME wished to have some expleisiiiia VOw . ;
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11 1 ' t.
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