The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1824-03-10 00:00:00

CUSTOMS ACTS.

➢lr. lILTSKISSON then moved the iii;ler of the Day for the
Report of the floods and Wares (Customs) Acts.
Mr. DARIN() said he did not intend to oppose the further
progress of this measure, not because be had altered his opinion,
but because, seeing the sense of the House, which he had never
known more decidedly expressed, it you'd be useless to contend
against it. There would be time enough for the arrangement of the
details.

111.76KISAON complimented the lion. Gentle:nan for his
candour, and he begged to assure him that he had no inclination
to hurry the-Bill through the House with greater despatch than
would be necessary. to give relief at the earliest possible petiud.
Ile would take care that the Bill should be bnnight in with the
utmost expedition, in order that its provisions might be fully dis.
cussed. . . .

13.1.R1NG said, he desired that the Right lion. Gentle-
man's experiment should be fairly made, and it was important that
the duty on silk should he repealed as soon as possible. !k belied
the drawback would be extended to the stock of the small shop-
keepers, which, in proportion to their means, was as much to them
as the largest to great capitalism
11U3IE objected to the measure being described as an ex.
raiment. He had no doubt whatever of its success. It was a re-
turn to sound principles, and could not be otherwise than success.
ful. There could he no difficulty he thought in taking ofrthe whole
duty instantly. He also hoped the Hight lion. Gentleman would
consider, not only the great, but the small holders of uncut stock.
It would be easy to tie a particular day when they might all re-
turn what goods they had uncut, and receive their drawback what-
ever it might be.
Mr. E. ELLICE said, that question could be better settled out
of the House. It' the act of justice were done to the masters to
return the duty they had paid on the stock on hand, he trusted
they would immediately employ their workmen afresh.
Ailer • few words from SIT 11. PANNELL and 3lr. Alderman
Wow), the report was brought up and agreed to.
IRISH TITHE CO3IPOSITION ACT.

.......
Sir J. NEW I'ORT said he hoptd it wu the intention of the
Right Hor.ourable Gentleman (Mr. (loulburn) to plumed with
his notice.

The Right lion.flent. had given way to hlr.lluskisson, to enable
him to bring up his resolutions.]
tIOULRURN then rose. lie said ft became his duty. to
move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Tithe Composition
Act or last Session. No one who hail attended to the discussion of
that Bill could have doubted that it would require some amend-
ment, and he had taken the earliest opportunity to submit, in de-
tail, such amendments as he conceived were necessary to give it
the greatest efficiency, and front time to time, he hoped be should
be allowed to ittbmit such further amendments as might also ap-
pear to him necessary. A great variety of objections existed to the
measure. One set was addressed to •be whole measure itself ; the
other, admitting the principle of the Bill, confined itself to the de-
tails. He would not then discuss the principle of the measure.'
.Parliament had pronounced an opinion that sonic such measure was
necessary. On that opinion he was disposed to rest, and avoid till
answer to those who objected to any measure at all. It had been
said that the object of the Mill was to augment the income of the
clergy, and invade the rights of property in the hands of laymen,
in order to give additional advantages to clergymen. This objec-
tioo would be shown to he wholly groundless. Ile was convinced
that the principle of the Hill was just and practicable, and he
therefore intended to propose such alterations as would make it
more operative through the country. The other class of obiectors
were those who found (cult with the details of the Bill. lie ad-
mitted that many beacticial changes might be wade in those details.

The enactments he intended Wpert+pose were in many Muftis
extremely minute, and might, in some eases, appear es,
worthy of attention ; but they woul tend to make the bill wort
mote generally to the satisfaction of all the parties affected by it,
He would state the progress made under the IliU of last masa.
No sooner was it passed than a brief exposition of the measure, caL
culated to give general information as to its nature, without wading
through the mass of provisions which its intricacy rendered neon.
sary, was transmitted to every parish in Ireland. There had bees
upwards of IWO applications for special vestries to riveseffect to the
Bill. In 179 instances the result had been ascertained. 2a,
rushes had agreed to avail themselves of the provisions of the 11111
3:39ed parishes had determined to adjourn the further consideratim ;
the question. An opinion had been expressed that it would be lie-
culiarly desirable for clergymen to make application under the A;
and it was natural, he agreed, that they should be forward, bat it
appeared that on the one hand the clergy, and on the other
the
landed proprietors, and such other persons as were concented is th
measure, were both equally sensible of its advantages, for of 1033
advertisements in the Dublin °matte, 107 applications wets by
the clergy, and 526 by the other classes, who. except in M
stances, embraced the landholders of the parish. The i,Serenee
was, that each party, the laity as weU as the clergy, hid ss
equal sense of the benefits derivable front the Act. An anxiety
had been stated by some Hon. Gentlemen to know under what see.
tions the applicatums had been made. The intricacy of the soh*,
prevented ham from ascertaining clearly, but he admitted that by
far the greater proportion had been made under that clause, by
which the parties were enabled to agree in the first instance as to
the amount proper to be assigned by way of compensation for the
tithes in preference to leaving it to be settled by Commissicem
and this was perfectly natural, as he believed no man, however
confident of the justice of his case, would not prefer keeping its
management in his own hands to trusting it to the arbitrary con.
sideration of a third person, in whose appointment he might oely
have halls share. lie (Mr. 0 ) certainly considered the introdue.
tion of that clause as one of the greatest Improves:units of the /la
(Hear, hear.) To those who contended that that clause tended el
make the Bill inoperative, be would exhibit the number of instants
in which compositions had been effected, as a snislactssy answer.
Of 500 cases, nearly one-half bad agree( without any didactic/ PT
complaint, and the intettions of the bill had been earned enc.
pletely into effect. lie was sure there was no parish in which,
when it had been introduced, the lower orders had not manifested'
great anxiety for its introduction (hear, hear) ; nor in which, whe.
thee it had been carried into effect or not, they had not sensibly felt
the benevolence of Parliament. (Hear, bear, hear.) They bad fat
that at sonic moment, which he trusted would not be long deferred,
that relief would be given to them from the burden, which. how.
ever moderated, was still heavy for them to bent. (Hear, hear)
Another result of their applications was also satisfactory. It war
a fashionable opinion out of that House. and he had hard it
echoed within its walls, that the clergy of Ireland were desirous to
grasp enormous profits, which they would wring with the utmost
alverity from their parishioners. He had heard it stated on Ms
other hand, and he believed it to be true, that the income of the
clergy of Ireland was, compared with the extent anti value of Mai
parishes, far lower than the clergy of any other country. ( Hear.) Ths
operation of the Tithe Bill completely proved what lintore could
only be asserted without proof. Ile would state, as far as he oar
able, what was the rate per acre at which the compositions bad
been made. There were as yet not many certificates registered,
but he would state the results in his power. l'he diocess et Cashel,
it was known, contained some of the best cultivated, the richest,
and most productive land in Ireland; and the general wealth of
the diocese, as compared with other parts of Ireland, was such,
that if a disposition to make exorbitant demands on the pan of the
clergy existed, it would be found there. In that dunces, pp
parishes had made returns under this Act, and by them it appeared
that the rate of composition per acre was severally N. Id., 2.1.41,,
2s. 3d., N. lid., arid Is. 2d., leaving an average of N. Ild. pet
acre Irish, or only Is. 3d. for the English acre. In the dialed
Clonfert the rate per ace was less. According to the returns fee
ten parishes, it was severally I Id., 10d., 12d., 9d., ficL, I Id., 74
lid., 12d., and 131, leaving, in full intisfaction of all datum fee
tithe, an average per acre Irish of I Id., or fwd. on the Englise
acre. lie would not weary the House by going through the le.
mainder of the returns. In one instance did the rate of comp,.
sition exceed N. Ild. on the Irish acre, which was certainly on
an excessive amount, or what the clergyman might not fairly
dentand.

Sir J. NEWPORT remarked across the table, that there wee
sonic wealthy parishes in the diocese of Cashel, hut there was
sonic very poor. It was impossible to form any judgment hos
the returns of particular parishes.
Mr. GIII;LISI'Jtn aw.tinued. The House had flfty.one aces
before it, taken without selection, except that those parishes had
been the most forward to avail themselves of the provisions of the
Bill. At all eve, ts, there was. a prima Jock argument for the
clergy. Ile then adverted to the cases in which the vattries oaf
adjourned without coining to any conclusion. It was with relation
to them that the Bill he intended to introduce was principally
necessary. One of the great difficulties the House had felt ia
the discussion of the present Act was, that the machinery to
execute it was entirely new. In order to carry the Bill' us
effect, the parishioners were required to perform a Bombe el
acts essential to form a vestry. They had then to deliberate
on their parochial concerns in a way not unusually mooted
to them. Great apprehensions had been reasonably eseressed
as to the mode in which they would discharge there dads.
He was bound to pay them the compliatern, that they had dis-
charged them more efficiently and wisely than he had contemplate&
In a few instances some inconver.iences had arisen from the unpin
vident or careless conduct of the vestries, but he was glad to stare
that he had little to propose to alter in their proceedings, though
he had much as to the mode of collecting persons to compose tee
vestries. He should not, however, propose to raise the qualifier
non. Among the causes that had impeded the operation of the
bill, some were an utter misapprehension (flits object and nature,
others were local circumstances ; fur example, in 110111 t cases one
parish formed part of two or three counties, and there was
no legal
.provision to collect the persons to compose the vestry.
In other instances there wan not a sufficient number of persons to
form a special vestry. Other causes would be beat explained by
the Bill itself. The House must not suppose that in all the us-
stances in which the vestries had adjourned they were disposed to
defeat the Act. In many cases their object was only to see its
ration in other parishes. In sonic cases they had fixed a period to
re—assemble, and in others they had again applied foe permission to
proceed under the Act. Though they had previously rejected it,
they had subsequently adopted it. It was a fair ground of calcula-
tion, that the longer the Act was in operation the better its rest
object would be understood. Two great causes were generally as-
signed for the adjournments of the vestries. The first was the is.
disposition of the proprietors and holders of grazing land to submit
themselves to the general operation of the Act, they having bees
hitherto exempted from the payment of tithe. These persons had
not only apposed the Act themselves. but exercised every inflame
over the meting% and prejudices of their felluw-parishioners to pas
rent the fair discussion of the treasure. lie ought to state that there
was no general indisposition by the proprietors of land to agree to
the provisions of the Act. Feeling the weight of the burthen impend
on them, they had nmerthelt ss endeavoured to persuade their fellow.
parishioners to adopt the measure, because thee were satisfied of in
general utility. Another class, more decidedly hostile to the Act
than any other, consisted of those who possessed neither the en-
lightened views of the eroprietor nor feelings in common with the
persons under hint. This was the dam who, in the absence of the
proprietors, tilled their station, but not the blank in society which
their absence occasioned. To these persons and the tenant organ
lands, the Act gave little inducement to adopt its provisions. They
held mostly for a short period, and at a fixed payment and they
considered the measure would produce a reduction of their profits
to which they were not bound to submit. It was not easy to res
move their prejudices, whether well or ill grounded. In their
j cases the House trust wait till the granting of new leases threw on
the landholder the weight of the difference they were anxious to
I avoid. One objection stated to the Act la At Session was, that the
average front 1814 to 1821 was unfairly chosen, as that was a period
, when the incomes of the clergy were at the highest possible rate.
There was a great difficulty in ascertaining the average of the
clergymen's income, and they were obliged to take the period team
1814 to 1f221 ; to strike it by 11121 and mn would be nothing ler
than a fraud on the clergy. Out of 240 instances, in which agree.
ments were made, there was no complaint against the clergyman.
In some places, however, if the value of tithes increased, in tubes
the, reverse was the case; sad it would be admitted to be difiiallt
to strike an weenier to please all. The clergy and the people were
alike adverse to making agreements. The inconie of the clergyman
was to be measured by the price of corn, which, as it naturally
varied, must vary the income of the clergyman. Suppose the la.
conic of the clergyman to be MIL while corn was at tiffs. then the
certificate would state that fact but suppime corn lower, the ie.
come would be lower too, and in many instances much lower than
would be necessary for hes support. The two leading proviaiers of
the present Bill would be to !allow the Comniissionere to adopt in
agreement between the parties, by striking an average of serve
years from 1814 to 1021. To explain his meaning he begged
to say—take the price of corn for seven years as one term,
the clergyman's income for the same period as the second term,
the price of cons for the seven years before, as the third term, and
the fourth would he the income to he fixed for the clergymen's
support. Another object of the Bill would be to qualify voters%
and he should therefore say, that each person ought to pare only
one vote. The few who paid a great portion of the county ass,
did what they pleased against those persons who were not so ic-
fluential, and whose interest was therefore not always properly at-
tended to. If any variation was to take place where composition
agreements had been entered into, he thought the period for se
doing should not be less than seven years. Some of the provi-
sions of the Bill of last year were rendered inoperative, because
of the date for their arrangement being set down as only to take
place in the ensuing November after any such agreement for com-
position was agreed to. That mischief would be obviated by the
present Bill ; another object was to enable one collector to collect
the rate, which he hoped would be approved of by the House.
NVithout going into further into detail, he hoped the measure he
proposed would answer every useful object, and promote the interest
and the comfort of the Irish people. The lion. nlembey occluded
by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Tithe Compo-
sition Act.
111r.J. ((RATTAN said it was too much to require the assent 0(
the House to a measure called an amendment, before the measure
on which it was built was brought to a fair trial. Though
the Right lion. Gentleman talked of the measure being tried in
240 cases, he (Mr. :rattan) ventured to say it was not in full ope-
ration in any one parish in Ireland. In fact the Bill altogether was
not understood ; one out of every hundred of the vestrymen did not
know the meaning of it. He himself was anxious to get the ales-
, sure into operation, and had presided at meetings which ended in
coining to no agreement. In one parish, where there was TV church
and no school, but where there were vicarial and rectorial tithes, ssu
of the vestrymen offered 1001. fiw the tithes ; but ultimately the!
came to no agreement. In another case, the clergyman was UV'
willing to take the offer of the parish, which was 4001., but agree'
to take it at 6001. notuieally, offering to give a bond for the sites

i
imhd
g—his object in havii
the market price of cc
income. The stv
be carried into effe
for such a period.
years, or let the averag
foe this discussic
tions for the consider
. HI UM 1:: contended
establishment in I
were 13 out of 14 p
prevailed, irritatior
desirable for Ireland
all persons ought to I
5., tithes, as the means I
Were not yet in the pos
for leave to introduce i
gal not know. This le
iellest was already confuse(
Ile. PEEL—The obje
be a Bill. If it were dela
klimmelf would be the fin
moski be a waste of word
thought the speech of the
sit a very satisfactory rely
Mr. tikATTAN—I b
the Bill was little unders
was no wonder that 23 va
DO more.
Mr. I'

The objet
- contract

years mould t
sanctioned th
to amend it. Whe
tents would be beta
it appeared they we
the subject.
few words from
`ease was give
C.l T I
N IL so
,rchbishop
and other cl
Itholics.
Irish lawyt
llowea•e
to Cath
thought
Lord (
foe Ire
. opinion vra
nda such Cif
'louse any fu

sIADINGE
ations were s
lotion bein
transfer

wiabcd
:remuneratic
Ordnince II
Cummissaria
ARDINOE
',alumna 11

trite to be ;

Mr. Ht 3tE--SUI:r;
m
Cu

;HINGE
in Ordnance.
HUMS thought
tan to the lowa /
I. lIARDINGE.
stated was consul
.11r. CALCRAI f as
the jeet, it might
on the vote w
the salary d
. say he thougl
lea than one tl
loud in that I
; station in sod
having him%
as the Gentleman
hinise

red. He was not
in iawao reason why th
Resinattartt eitner thi AC
y.
• Mr. PEEL. said. the
Induce the COssidm:ion
the could not at present
kw had just said, it was
Mr. HUM E—Thcn
the general &mar of gala
doing little ; and he can
!alfat the Secretary.
e. CALl'it.trT-1
The resolution was th
• Oa sae resolution bane
labNshment.
)Ir. HUME said, he
in the course of next yi
reduced to what the am
of four years to each stu
Sir 11. 11Alt
the last year. 'flit num
establishnient consisted
been provided for ; but
that w!!en the army was
the half-par list.
Mr. 1/.I:IIItE3T
would rot be cripple
Member fur Ail, nleen.
311StEl.
The Report of the M
rad.

----
IJpee the ro.e for t
the barrack &Tart Plttlt
....

1101111101.:-.1:
&weld appeal to the lid
singuished for his spirit
appealed to him on 7
quoted the Petition of
wished for by the pcoy
awry for him to woe,
fawn from the soldier
day, a standing 'nay
could not, therefore, t
was, that soldiers wet
by private individuals
pocket of the King; as
pose of supporting the
He hoped thaefore the
Bare he would. at the Ti
oat one which he had t
it • serious came of c
lodged at the e•pen‘c
garrison towns end inl
of the Gallant Officer,
merely ohctlie:tt to th
wish to find bi:n a 1,
system, it was said, u
ter of the eotn:try ' • thi.
as a barrack was knot
population, which laid
and fame which it at
which were infrrior to
troubling the lloose
move an amendment to
*mkt add to his amer
day ' was supposed to
sidered to have incolcat
•be went to hi, anie•idnl
make the Gallant (till
was Off anon duration, a
ed all his spec
fti=f had been slew
sure ho had ever eng
amendment,
" That it appears to
war is lelb more than
the barrack department
and that 1345,5111 L are]
the oirranyear.
" That it appears
gutted Is to be laid out
on the site of the Kin:
the heart of the ei:v
tary station, seyairat t•;
to the many siinuar
the kingdom.
" That this House
suspicion the condoms
alstent with the ancient
lad than expounded
troastitution of the rot
Blackstone, who, in
after expressly declari
kimdonss know no I
&soldiery, makes use, i
assekaWe words :
" • Nothing, then,
Gore guarded against
power, when such a o
allatiact from the peoph
enlisted for a abort ar

with tt

DO inland fortresses, sl
still hater, it, by thin
sit every renewal or th
Sweea the army and th
MOW intimately mire
" That this 110 toe
with the great cinumei
hag to discourage the n
sum than 90,0151
in current year ;
allya, that no new hi
amidst or in the ricinitt
The kionourable tie
wished to nicwr ; aid t
lubjects, which they h
tiallant Oiliest opposi

Mr. PEEL—The of
to make whatever cony
am for three years volt
Vie !louse sanctione:
l is would be 1
gkked to amend it. li
upon they
upon the subject.
. . After a few words ft
elanation, leave was g
C. 17
` Sir H. PARNELL
Catholic Ariebbisl
endowed and °the
use of Catholics.
; and the hire Is
the subset. How
sum to &
ble Iletjuests thout
il before the Lot
Attorney-General for
believed that opinion
Ireland. I 'oder such
4; 'rouble the 'louse and
• Sir H. lIARDIN
. . - I resolutions we
- On the resolution Ii
Minn to persons tram
depict meat,
i.
Mr. HUME wish,
o made for the remuner
;, ' eanat to the Ordnino
.. •
t include the Corumisst
- 1 Sir H. HARLIN
place as if the persor
The salaries were to I
i • Mr. H ITME--Sup
Commissariat, aad i
his period of
~ , .nuatien ?
Sir H. HA IIDINI
' '.. in the Ordnan
Mr. HUME thou;
. die hipher to the low
Sir 11. HARDINI
ba had stated was cm
Mr. CA LCRA rl
en the subject, it mil
few words on the rot
' the vote for the solar
' •••f Ile must say he that
salary of less than or
that Board in th
' .". becoming station in I
`s that office, haring h
much as the Gentler
means considered hit
employed. He was
lee saw bo reason trli
1 ll:apt:ae eitaer Lb.:
' • Mr. PEEL said. t
induce the comillend
lie could not at prom
be had just said, it i
Mr. HUM E—Thi
the general setae of a
doing little t and he ,
lia7foe the Secretary
fr. CALCR.t rl
. The resolution we
• • Oa the resolution
' labfishment.
111 r. H U Al E said,
in the course of net
reduced to what the:
of four years to each
Sir 11. lIARI/IN
the last yenr. The n
establishment 1:011611
been provided for ; I
that when the anny
i the half-par list.
Mr. it. tiiiiii:u
would rot be 1711
llienbrr fur AK rile
311:st',
The Report of thi
seat
Upon the role fin
• the barrack &Tarim
Mr. 110111101.:
• &weld appeal to thr
tinguished for his si
4 ' appealed to him e
quoted the Petition
wished for by the p
Gary for him to stal
faent from the sold
day, a standing at
could not, therefon
was, that saltines
by private imlisith
' pocket of the King
pose of supporting
He hoped therefore
sore he world. at th
one one which he h,
it a serious cause o
lodged at the ester
' garrison towns and
of the GaiLtnt Othi
merely olsedieut to
wish to find him
system, it was said
t ter of the country ;

object in having the vestry agree to WI. wu, that in
the market price of corn fell, he might still have a full average
income. The seven years' average he disliked : it could
be carried into effect, fiir people never could calculate the
for such a period. Lct the vestries settle the period tor seve-
or let the average be struck at three years. He was not
for this discussion, and had merely thrown out these ob.
for the consideration of the II wise.
r. Ilir311; contended that nothing hut breaking up the whole
oich establislunent in Ireland would produce any good. (Hear.)
- were 13 out of 1.1 paying for the fourteenth, and while this
~t prevailed, irritation must follow it, and irritation ass the last
ig desirable for Ireland. The principle of the Bill was wrong ;
all persons ought to he allowed, where they could, to buy up
it tithes, as the means tit allaying discontent. The papers called
were not yet in the pmmes4ion of Members, and it was unfair to
for leave to introduce a Bill to amend Hills, whose effect they
ild not know. This legislation was only tending to confound
tat was already confused.
Mr. PEEL—The obe.-ct now was only to ask for leave to bring
a Bill. If it were delayed hi a later period, the Hun. Member
Aims& would be the first to say it would be then too late. It
would be a waste of words to argue such a matter further. He
thought the speech of the lion. Member (31r. Grattan) was of it-
self • very satisfactory reason for bringing in an amended Bill.
Mr. ORATTAN—I beg the Right lion. Gentleman's pardon;
the Bill was little understood by Members in this House, and it
was no wonder that 23 vestrymen should not understand it. 1 said
no more.
Mr. PEEL—The object of the Bill was to leave the parties open
to make whatever contract they could fur 211 yeses, if they pleased;
one toe three yeses could be attended with every degree of perplexity.
he House sanctioned the previous Bill, and they were now only
asked to amend it. When the Bill was in print, its supporters and
tupottents would be Letter prepared to argue it than at present.
when it appeared they were not in possession of sullicient informs.
non upon the subject.
After a few words from Mr.
plaostion, leave was given to bring in the Bill.
CATHOLIC DONATIONS. _

........--- .
Sir 11. PARNELL said he last year presented a petition from
the Catholic Archbishops of Ireland, praying that schools might
be endowed and other charitable institutions for Catholics and fur
the use of Catholics. There were not many decisions on that sub-
ject ; and the lends lawyers seemed far a time to feel some difficulty
on the subject. However, a few years since. a Catholic lady left •
considerable sum to Catholic uses ; but the Commissioners of Cho.'
enable Bequests thought proper to file a bill, which was ultimately
heard before the Lord Chancellor, and the will confirmed. The
Attorney-General for Ireland concurred with that opinion ; and he
believed that opinion would prove satisfactory to the Catholics of
Ireland. Under such circumstances he did not feel it necessary to
trouble the 'louse any further.
SUPPLY.

Sir H. II A RDIN OE brought up the Report of Supply; and
several resolutions were agreed to.
On the resolution being proposed for granting a sum for remune-
ration to persons transferred from the Commissariat to the Oninar.ce.
department,
Mr. HUME wished to be informed what arrangements were
made for the remuneration of persona transferred front tile l'onimis-
slung to the Ordnance Department ? IVere the superannuations to
include the Commissariat period of service?
Sir H. HARDINUE said, the superannuation' were to take
place as if the persons had belonged to the Ordnance Department.
The salaries were to be paid at a similar scale.
• Mr. H VII/E---Suppose a man had been seven or ten years in the
Commissariat, sod was afterwards transferred to the Ordnance,
would his period of Commissariat service be considered in his so-
perannuatien ?
Sir H. HA RDINGE—Just the same as if he had been all the
period in the Ordnance.
Mr. II U ALE thought that unfair, for it was taking a man from
the higher to the lower scale.
Sir H. HARDING E--filorne regulation was necessary, and what
he had stilted was considered to be the best.

31r. CA lA 7RA rf said, that as a sort of debate had sprung up
on the subject, it might not be cor.sidered improper in hint to say a
few words on the vote which had already rased. lie alluded to
the vote for the salary of the Secretary to the Board of Ordnance.
He must say he thought that of very inadequately paid by a
salary of less than one thousand a year. lie was the representative
of that Board in that House, and should be enabled to sustain a
becoming station in society. He was well aware of the duties of
that office, having himself filled it ; and though he had twice as
touch as the Gentleman who now discharged its dutiss, he by no!
means considered himself ton well paid. He had his hands '
employed. He was not now in a situation to move any thing; but
he saw DO reason why the Secretary to the Ordnance shuukl be worse
edd than timer the Admiralty Secretary or the Secretary to the
Treasury.
Hr. PEEL said, the Hon. Member had certainly said enough to
Induce the tmaidemtion of this subject by his Majesty's 3linisters.
lie could not al present give any aysurance on the subject ; but, as
be had just said, it was a matter worthy of attention.
Mr. ACME—Then if the Hight Hon. iientleman will look at
the general scale of salaries, he will find some are too well paid for
doing little; ant he can deduct from them to make up a proper
lay for the Secretary.
Xr. CA IiCRA FT—I by no means wish to take it from ahem
The resolution was Men agreed to.
• Om the resolution being proposal for the Woolwich College Ea.l
tablishment.

111 r. Al I: said, he hoped the establishment would be reduced
in the course of next year. The number of students should be
reduced to what the army could provide for, allowing an education
of four years to each student.
Sir If. lIAIIIH SG E said the expense was redriced 1.6001. in
the last yenr. The nionher now at the college Gas ft 3 ; though the
establishment consisted of. WO. A greater number would have
been provided for ; but that, in obedience ton vote of this House,
that when the army was to be filled up, it should be tilled up from
the half-pay list.
Mr. It. GILBERT hoped, that so valuaLle an establishment
would rot be crippled, as recommended by the Honourable
Member fur Aberdeen.
311St:IELLANEOE'S
_ESTI3IA TES.

The Report of the Miscellaneous Estimates was brought up and
tread.

- -- -
Upon the vole for the ranting of 136,351 L for the expeoses of
thi2?arrfilk dryar!rnent bang read,

Mr. 1108801 E said:before this vote passed the House, he
should appeal to the Gallant Officer opposite, who was no less dis-
tinguished for his spirit than for his constitutional feelings. lie had
appealed to him on a former occasion, when the gallant officer
quoted the Petition of Rights, in order to phew that soldiers were
wished for by the people of England. Ile knew it was not neces-
sary for him to state, that a soldier in those days was widely dif-
Intent from the soldier of the present day. There was not, at that
day, a standing army ; such a thing was utterly unknown: It
could not, therefore, be called for by the people. The complaint
was, that soldiers were billeted on private houses, and supported
by private individuals, when they should be paid for out of the
pocket of the King: and where there existed. ter the express par.
pose of supporting those troops, what were called garrison towns.
Ile hoped therefore the (Milani Officer would look again, as he was
sure he would. at the real Petition of Rights, and not the boom,.
ass one which he had thought proper to quote ; and he would find
it a serious cau-e of complaint, that soldiers should be Mond and
lodged at the expense of the people, when it should be done in the:
garrison towns and inland fortresses. Ile knew from the character
of the Gallant Officer, that he would expect to find a soldier not
merely obedient to the authority of his officer, but he would also
wish to find him a good chiral and a gond man. The barrack
system, it was said, was necessary to support the military charac-
ter of the cottr:try ' • this he strenuously dented: before such a thing
as a barrack was known, this country produced and turned out a
population, which laid the foundation of that great military dignity
and fame which it at preseot possessed, and had gained victories
which were inferior to none gained since. Ile was ashamed of
troubling the House with these antiquated opinions. Ile would
move an amendment to the vote for the system of barracks ; and he
would add to his amendment the opinion of a Judge who, in his
day, was supposed to be sufficiently courtly, but who was now con-
sidered to have inculcated nothing but bold opinions ; and before
be went to his amendment, he would admit that on a former oc-
casion the Gallant Officer had gained a triumph over him ; but it
was of short duration, as his friend, tile Member for 3lontroee, had
deranged all his speculations. lie was willing to grant that he
himself bad been detected in an error in the first financial nice.
sure he had ever engaged in. lie would now move as an
amendment,
" That it appears to this House, that since the conclusion of the
war in 11115 more than 2,/itllt,lloUl. sterling have been expended in
the barrack deportment established in Great Britain and Ireland,
and that 1:16,531L arc proposed to he devoted to the tame object in
the eurnanyear.
" That it appears to this House that a part of the sum so re.
quired is to be laid out in the construction of a permanent barrack
on the site of the King's-mews, Charing-cross ; and that thus, in
the heart of the city and liberties of B'estiiiimter, another mili-
tary station, sepamiiiig the soldier from the citizen, is to be added
to the many similar establishments to be found in various parts of
the kingdom.
" That this !loose cannot but view with the utmost jealousy and
suspicion the contirusoce and increase of a system utterly incon-
sistent with the ancient laws and usages of England, such as they
fad them expounded by all the authorities who have treated of the
locomotion of the country--and move particularly by Mr. Justice
Blackstone, who, in his commentaries on toe laws of England,
after expressly celaring that the laws and constitution of these
kingdoms know no such state as that of • perpetual standing
soldiery, makes use, in a subsequent passage, of the following re.
marinade words
" ` Nothing, then, according to these principles, ought to be
more guarded against in a free state titan making the military
Power, when such a one is necessary to be kept on foot, a body too
distinct from the people. Like ours, therefore, it ought only to be
enlisted for a short and limited time ; the soldiers, also, should
liveistenoixed with the people: no separate camp—no barrack-
-00 inland fortreses, should be allowed ; and perhaps it might be
still better, if, by dismissing a stated number, and crusting others,
tummy renewal of their term, a circulation could be kept up be-
tween Ow army and the people, and the citizen and the soldier to
move Intimately connected together.'
" That this House partaking, therefore, those free sentiments
with the great commentator on the laws of their country, and wish-
ing to discourage the military system therein decried, will not votes
Wirt sum than 90,01t111. for the barrack department in Great Britain
in the current year ; and the House further humbly begs leave to
urge, that no new barrack for soldiers ought to be erected in the
OUdit Of in the vicinity of the metropolis."
The Honourable I icntleman observed this was the amer.dment he
wished to nio-c : and though he was ashamed of referring to those
"objects, which they had learned as elements, he would remind the
Udlant (Mica opposite of the complaint made formerly by the

people of England. They alleged that it was customary for large
companies of soldiers and manners to enter the houses of the inha-
bitants, and sojourn there contrary to law and justice; and this
they considered a great grievance. This was the complaint of the
English people: he hoped. therefore, the liallant Officer would not
again quote the Petition of Rights as if in waggery.
I I pon the Amendment being seconded and put,
it 11. lIARDIMIE said, he would not allude to the conatl.
tutional lecture received from the Honourable Member for West.
minuet. Ile would justify the building of barracks on the princi-
ple of necessity. The House would recollect that at the commence.
utent of and during the revolutionary war, the Ilouse received
numberless petitions, praying that the billet system should be abo-
lished and barracks should be built. The same petitions were re-
newed in li tt3, and when tiovernment, from the threats of inva-
sion, was obliged to make corresponding movements, and large
bodies of troops were sent to the counties on the coast, it was im-
possible to keep the men under canvas during the winter, and it was
equally impossible to lodge them in public-houses, and private
houses were exempt by law. Ceder these circumstance' petitions
were frequently sent to the House, to save them from the ruinous
system of the billet. in pursuance of these petitions the barracks
were built in the counties adjacent the coast, but they were much distil.
lashed. and though there were 75,600 men in arms there was but bar-
rack accommodation for 30,1100. As to the barrack in the Mews, the
Hon. Member did not know from the estimate that it was to be
built. Ile did rot know it himself officially ; the building was the
property of the Crown, not of the Ordnance Board ; and though
he did not know the Mews were to be converted into a barrack, he
believed it likely to happen. It, therefore, the Hon. Member
shored his motion by probability, lie was right ; if he shaped it
by the estimate laid before the Ilouse, he was wrong. As to the
system cf billet, he would state why he thought that of barrack
much preferable. Before the revolutionary . ir, as far back as the
year 17Y2, the guards had fewor no barracks, except those quartered
the Tower; they were scattered over the City ; and the emote-
, queues was, their discipline was in a most deplorable state ; and
about the year 17111 or 17W.!. it was computed that one out of four-
teen of the guardsmen was capitally convicted at Newgate. Since
the barrack system, not one was convicted capitally ; previous to
that they were banged every year for their crimes. It was difficult
to keep soldiers when billet AI about under a proper control ; it
was utterly impossible to keep them under subordination in such a
place as the lower parts of Westminster, with eery kind of vice
and profligacy in their view. There was anoder thing to be com-
plained of in the billet system: st hen a soldier was billeted, he
left his anus at the armoury, and thus he did not retain on parade
the habits or appearance cf a military man. He was decidedly
of opinion that a soldier was more likely to be made a better
citizen and a better man in barracks, than by being billeted abroad.
Ile would oppose the amendment.
Mr. lICME said, the plan was evidently to make the soldier an
automaton in the hands of his officer, without a single feeling in
common with his fellow.eitizens. If it were the object to keep the
soldier front the houses of the people, the barracks should be re.
moved from the City altogether. The object of the Government
was a military despotism, otherwise the granting such sumo for
barracts, and the keeping tip of 'A.Utnlarmed men in time of peace,
was monstrous. He would support the amendment.
Mr. HORHOUSE said, with respect to the King's Mews, the
way he obtained his information was by asking the Secretary at
War, an 4 he told hint of the intention of converting them into bar-
racks.

The amemdment was then put and negatived without a division.

PENALTIES RECOVERY BILL.

Sir T. BARING suggested a clause in the second reading of
this bill, to the effect of vestirg a discretionary power in Alagis-
trates, to conintute the penalty of levying tines in eases of distress
to imprisonment.
CATTLE BILL.

Mr. HI-3IE rose to oitixt;etire;Pealtee".7. leaving the chair. The
present Bill appeared to him wholly unnecessary. The prin-
ciple of the Bill was objectionable, as was that of all Bills which
sought to correct an abuse, but which in correcting sought to intro.
dm:: still greater abuses ; such lie thought was the tendency and
effect of the Bill of the lion. Member (Mr. Martin). He begged to
call the attention of the House to • Passage, which affixed a penalty
for the " overloading a horse." Now how was it to be determined
wnen a horse was overloaded or not ? lie (Mr. Hume) had seen a
pony which was sufficiently strong to sustain his Noble Friend
(Lord Nugent). whereas he had also seen a big horse, which might
not so well carry him. (A laugh.) Ills attention was it no small
degree attracted to the provisions of the present Bill by
the circumstance of the Honourable .Member voting against
clause introduced by him • few nights ago tot the aboli-
tion of flogging in the army. The lion. ]Member, wi e took uncial
his especial care all the Itolses, bull-dogs, and cats of the country,
could not extend his humanity so far as to vote for • measure, the
object of which was to exempt 73,000 men from the cruelty of flog.
ging (hear); yet he was all alive and sensitive at the "overloading
a hon.e." In consistency surely the Hon. Member ought to have
supported him on a funnier night ; he should not have denied that
humanity to his fellow-re:attires which he so sensitively bestowed
on the brute creation. The Hon. Gentleman should at least have
contented himself with the Bill of last Session upon. this subject,
which he (Mr. Hume) admitted had done good. lie would there-
fore move as an amendment—•• That the House phould go into a
Committee this day six months on this Bill."
Some heettetine hsving been evinced been any Member role to
second the anieodrnat, _

The AT I'OILNEI7.OENERAL said, that its ascending the
amendment of the Honourable ;%leinber for Aberdeen, he wished
to accompany it with a statement of the reasons which induced
him to oppose the Bill of his Honourable Friend (.Mr. Martin).
In his opinion, all the useful objects that were to be attained by
legislation on this subject heti been attained by the Cruelty to
Animals' Bill, which had been passed last Session. In that Bill,
which was principally dtsigned for the protection of horses trom
cruelty, there was a clause whith prevented wanton and cruel
treatment of cattle. But in the present Bill, if any animal suf-
fered from negligent or inadvertent treatment, the party guilty of
inch inadvertence was made guilty of a misdemeanor. He (the
Attorney-General) apprehended this was nut the intention of his
Honourable Friend: there might be propriety in enforcing a
penalty on persons acting " wantonly and cruelty," but he could
not agree in the policy of extending that penalty to those who
acted " negligently." His main objection, however, was, that
it was sufficiently provided for by the enactments of the Bill
of last Session. As to the mode of punishment, be also dif-
fered with his Honourable Friend. If there was any species
of offence which was peculiarly fitted for a Magistrate to legit'.
late upon, it was this which the Bill proposed to remedy. Hut
the lion. Member proposed that a discretion might be vested
in the Mvistrate to send a cue of this kind to the Sessions, where
after it had been traversed, and the delay perhaps of a year, and after
the expense of .101. or WI., a conviction might follow. The penalty
would therefore often exceed the offence, and the execution of the
law be attended with unnecessary charge, inconvenience, and de-
lay. The third clause of the Bill appeared to him more objection.
able still than those parts on which he had already observed. It
proposed to authorize any person who detected any individual in
cruel treatment to cattle, though not a constable, end without a
warrant, to seize such person and bring him before a Magisuatu.
Now, amongst other reasons, which principally induced hint to op.
pose this part of the Bill, wit a feeling of charity towards the lion.
Member himself ; fur so great had hitherto been bis seal in such
detections, that he feared, if this clause passed into a law, his
lion. Friend would be every day engaged In some setive contest in
the streets in carrying it into effect. (Hear, bear.) In the present
Bill, the " bull,' which was a favourite with the lion. Elfeinbet,
was not introduced expressly in the present Bill, but it was in.
eluded under the phrase of •• any cattle." The liou. Member had
thought by the word any to introduce the " bull." That, he be.
liev!ii,washis intention.

31r.v.NIARTIN—No doubt.
The A TTORNEY-UENERAL thought that his Honourable
Friend shuuLl have openly declared that such was his intention, and
not thus endearcur to insinuate it after it Intel been already die.
countenanced by the House. The fourth and lasi clause of the
Hill proposed that a part of the money which constituted the pc-
nalty should be given to the prosecutor in each case. Now, as hi*
Honourable Friend had been the prosecutor In most (be believed) of
the cases of this nature, the clause would be found chiefly advanta-
geous to himself. (Litughter..) Having gone througb the several
enactments, and stated separately his oojections, he coincided with
the Hon. Member for Aberdeen in its espedianey, and would there.
fore second his amendment.

Mr. W. 15311TH thought that the latter part of the speech of
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman was not meant as seriously
applicable to his Honourable Friend (Mc. )Martin). It was, ho
conceived, introduced as one of those
Ile
which usually accom-
panied the discusaion of this subject. Ile acquitted the Honour.
able and Learned Gentleman of any invidious in:ennui' in introdue-
ing it now. In his opinion, the 0111 of last maim) had had a good
effect on the bad habits of the lower diem. On the subject of
the flogging of *Wilier., he differed with him, as well as the lion.
Member for Aberdeen, but that was now no re 5114.13 why lie should
oppose his present bill, which was, in hie opinion, a Mods= of
humane legislation.
Mr. MARTIN (on a general cry of his name, from both sides
of the House) rose. He was not uninformed of the motives and
MOMS which induced the Hon. Member for Aberdeen to oppose
his present MIL Ile was aware of his intention to allude to the
vote which he (Mr. M.) gave on the proposed abolition of flogging
in the army. The lion. Member had theught proper, on account of
that vote, " to show him up" to the House that evening. (A laugh.)
The Hon. Member had free leave and permissiun from hint (Mr.
M.) to do so. lye had his licence in his pocket, and had he not,
the lion. Member for .therdeen should not " show up" the Hon.
Member for Galway. (Much laughter.) It had been alleged that
the vote which he gave on a firmer night was at variance with the
measure he now proposed. lie took pride to himself, when On,
act supposed to be against humanity, was made a charge of incon-
sistency upon him, for it admitted the general tenor of his life to
be characterized and regulated by humane principles. From that
charge lie was now ready to vindicate himself, se be was also ready
to defend the propriety of the vote which on a former night be
gave. The reasons which induced lum to vote against the aboli.
lition of flogging in the army were twofold—First, be was inform.
ed froui creditable sources, that the Commander-in.Gliief had corn.
mowed reformation in that punishment. Instances of such punish-
ment were now extren.ely rare, and whenever a prevalemy to such
punishment was found to prevail in a particular regiment, such pre-
valence was invarinbly censured by the Commander-in-Uhler. lie
therefore thought it ungracious in the House to interfere in a refor.
motion which the excellent and illustrious person who presided
user the army was aiming to accomplish. The second reason which
induced him to give the vote which the lion. Member fur Aberdeen
had animadverted was, that that punishment, severe as it was, in his
opinion was merry to the soldiery as compared with the imprisoning.,
the,u,and obliging them to walk for whole hours and days under the
load of heavy knapsacks. These were the reasons which led him to
vote as he had done Ile announced them now, but had not stated!
them to those with whom he ustudly acted, and who had not•
be thought treated him with the courtesy he bad reason to expect.

MAILS.
Dig-1 Lisbon, 1 Gottenburgh, 3 Hamburgh, 1 Holland,
1 French.

Letters have been received from Corfu, which announce
the sailing of a division of the Turkish fleet from the Dar-
danellts. Its destination was generally supposed to be
Smyrna, which being threatened by the Greeks, is in want
of protection ; othtr3 imagine that this division is to rein-
force the Turkish fleet in the Gulf of Lepanto.

f
WI. ;--his a
the mai
incorn
his
er be car
. ces for 5011
I !Jean, or
•rePared ft"
rattans
Mr. 'ICI
.arch estai
There were
ystem preen
thing desiral
for all perm
their tithes,
fer were not
ask for least
could not le
what was at
Mr. PEE
in a Hilt
himself sou
would be a
thought the
self a very II
31r. tia.l
the Bill wa
was no won
no more.
Mr. PEE
to make wh
tine for thret
1 he House
asked to am
rimorents
when it apt
tiun upon ti
After a fi
planation, I
Sir 11. P.
the l'atholi
be endowed
the use of I.
ject ; and t/
on the subji
considembli
citable Ilest
heard befog
Attornev-ti
belies th
• Ireland. 1
trouble the
Sir H.
several rest
thither
ration to pi
department
Mr. 11U
made for tl
swim to th
include the
hir H.l
place as if
The slant
Air. HU
Comniimair
would his
perannuatit
Sir H. II
period in tt
Mr. 111'
the hitcher
Sir 11. 11
be had stst
31r. CA
on the subj
few words
the vote lot
He must
salary of k
of that 1101
becoming I
that other.
much as th
teens com
employed.
be saw Doi