The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1824-02-21 00:00:00

ARMY ESTIMATES,

On the motion of Land P.IIi3IERSTON, the (louse remlred
itself into a If 'ommittee of Supply, to which the Army Ultimates
Were referred for consideration. . . . . .

Lord I'.I.I.3IERSTON said that any body Who had looked at
the estimates would perceive that there was r proposed auignenta-,
tem of the military ft,cc. and an attendant increase of charge.
The augmentation of force conskted in six new regiments, and an
addition of 2110 men to each of the three veteran battalion, ; alto-
gether an increase of 4,440 officers and men. The attendont in.'
crease of charge was !38,11001.: but since the estimates had been
prepared, he had obtained more accurate infonnation. and lie
thought himself justified in making a deduction of ri;'.,01101. from
the vole he had intended to propose; the particular beads he wmild
state• hereafter. This ileiluenon would reduce the entire increase
to 103,4641. In calling the attention of the Committee to this sub-
ject, it would be expected that he should state some reacins tier
the proposod increase of the military force of the country. Ile
should be able to state those unisons in a very few words. The
augmentation was 010 proposed, in consequence of any aprehen-
eion that the peace of /:urine: would be disturbid, nor in anticipa-

'Hon that this country would be involved in any foreign war, nee on
account of any alarm respecting the continuance of the internal
tranquillity of this country. The grounds on which his Majesty's
Government bad thought it their duty to propose the augments,
' tion, and on which he was persuaded Parliinnent would be dis-
posed to sanction it, wore solely and simply the state of our Went
Inch% Colonies. He felt that be should best perform his public
duty, and consult the convenience °tithe House, by thus generally
pointing out the necessity of the augmentation, and abstaining front
entering into • detail of the topics which there could be no doubt
were sufficiently interesting and important in themselves, but
which, at the same time, were such as from their magnitude de-
served separate consideration, and not to be rendered a matte: of
collateral discussion merely on the army estimates. Having thus
generally stated the grounds on which the increase had been made,
it only remained for him to add, that every regard had been shewn
in that increase to the most economical arrangement. His 31ajes-
ty'a Government had determined that every Officer of the Rix new
regiments should be taken from the bait-pay list, and not one
transferred by promotion from the existing regiments. It was
needless to may that this arrangement had not been unaccompanied
with a great sacrifice of feeling on the part of Government and the
Cuaninareler.in-l'hief. It would have gratified them if they could
have taken advantage of the increase to have given that promotion
to many meritorious( /Ricers to which they were most justly entitled,
both by their distinguished services during the war, and by their see-
rites, equal in value,though of a less distinguished, but perhaps snore
irksome nature, in the distant colonies since the return of peace. It
was, however, also the duty of Government to attend to considera-
tions of a strictly tinencial nature. It hail been often imputed to Go-
vernment, that they increased their establishments for the sake of
extending their influence and patronage. If, at any future time,
this assertion should be repeated, he would be content to reply by
pointing to the fact he had now stated, and on that be would rest
the defence and vindication of the Government. The augmenta-
tion of the land forces proposed in the eatimates was 3800 officers
and men, and the increased charge 172,0001., which was counter-
balanced by a saving of 18,4101.11 on the hell-pay anti allowance to
General 4 Miners. Of this increase, 13f .0001. arose from the new
regiments ; the remainder was occasioned by the return of certain
regiments from India, which last year were charged on the East
India C.inipany, as being on their voyage home. On the staff
there was an increase of 50001. arising from the appointment of a
General Officer, and the transfer to that head of some charges that
properly belonged to it, but hail formerly bees erroneously kept
under other heads. In the public departments there was • dimi-
nution of 181001. In medicine there was a decrease of 5841. In the
volunteer corps there was but striding variation- He should say
nothing respecting the troops in India, as they were charemble to
the East India Company. On the third class of the estimates there
was a diminution of 29,0001. in comparison with the emintates of
last year. To this diminution adding the sum of 55,0001. which,
as lie had before stated, he proposed to abate from the first class,
would make a total saving of 64,0001. On the Military College
there was • reduction of 1631. (Hear, hear, front 31r. Hume.)
On the pay of General Officer, there was a reduction of
13,8001. Ile contemplated • saving of 541001. this year. Last
year there was a saving of 12,0001. on that head. The charge
for garrisons remained nearl: the same. On the full pay
of retired officers there was a reduction of 1,00111. On that
head he intended to propose a further diminution of 10,0001. On
the half-pay and military allowances there was, as compared with
last year, a diminution of 17,0001. On this also he intended a
further reduction of 40,0001. making a total diminution on that
head of 57,001.11. On the foreign half-pay, there was a diminution
of 2,000 L The i•-pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham /los.
pitals remained the same as last year. On the out-pensions there
was a diminution of 5,0001. The diminution would have been
larger, but the return of the troops from India had added consider-
ably beyond the annual average to the number of pensioners. On
the Military Asylum there was a reduction of 2,29411. The widows'
pensions had increased by the sum of 3,6001. There hail been
several fresh cases exceeding the annual casualty. The reduction
of the army was not attended by a corresponding reduction of this
class of pensions, for reasons which would appeal obvious to the
Committee. On the conipaasionate list there was an increase of
6,5001., and on the superannuation allowances an increase of 3,6831.
These increases had arisen from the transference of accounts from
other heads. The Exchequer tees were the same as last year. In
the veteran battalions there was an incluse of 34 men, and an
increased charge of 19,0001. The total balance on the face of the
estimates was an increase of 4,560 men, attended by—
An increased charge of . - - .C 158,000
Which diminished by . . . 55,000
Left an increase of only . . - 103,000
Against this increase he was entitled to put the payment of 60,0001.
by the East India Company, on account of the half-pay and pen-
sions arising from the defence of their territory. By the provisions
of the Act of Parliament, that sum was paid into the Exchequer.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer would of course take credit for
it in the Ways and Mrans, and it could not therefore be deducted on
the face of these Estimates. But, as it was paid for a specific pur-
pose connected with these Estimates, he felt that he was entitled to
take credit for it. Making a deduction to that amount, the total
increase of expense to be provided for this year, as compared with
the last, was only 43,0001. on a total increase of force of 4,590 omen.
The Noble Lord concluded with moving, that " a number of land
forces not exceeding 73,316 men, and also 3,354 men for service in
the loyal veteran battalions in Ireland (exclusive of the men be-
longing to the regiments employed in the territorial potaessions of
the East India Company, commissioned and non-commissioned
officers included,) be maintained for the service of the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the 25th day of De-
cember, 1623, to the 24th day of December, 1024, both days in-
clusive, being 366 days."
Mr. 111/31E said that if the Committee was guided by what fell
front the Noble Lord, they would consider the present vote as a
matter of course. The ruble Lord, however, had stated no
reasons by any means satisfactory. He had not alluded to the cir-
eumstances under which the increase of the army had taken place
last year. It was not intended then, that 400,11410 should be con-
sidered as the lowest number to which the army was to be reduced.
Two years since, the House had addressed hie Majesty to reduce
the emu to the lowest state consistent with the safety of the country.
In consequence of that address, government had made • reduction
of 11l or 12.000 men, though they had previously told the House
. that it was impossible to make any reduction whatever. The army
was, notwithstanding that declaration, reduced horn 81,000 to
69,000 men. It was not understood, however, that the latter
number was that below which it was definitively fixed the army was
never to be reduced. In consequence of the attack of France upon
Spain, it was last year deemed advisable to continue that force on
foot, as it was impossible to foresee whether this country might not
be involved in the war. At present, however, we were in very dif-
ferent circumstances, as the speech of the Noble Lord himself
testified ; and he (Mr. Hume) therefore could see no reason to
justify the proposed increase. On an average of nine years after
the American war, the British Government maintained a force of
only 33,000 regulars, and they had then no militia; while it was
now proposed to maintain a force of 73,000 men, together with
19,060 artillery, veterans, and marines, besides which there were
77,41011 militia enrolled, and a 'body of yeomanry, in number
74,000, and costing the nation 130.9001. a-year. The Right
Honottrable Secretary for Foreign Affairs had lately said that
there was a long prospect of peace; that he had no idea of hos-
tility abroad and at home; the thought of trouble never entered
his mind ; but that there were some elements of strife in motion
which might ultimately affist the peace of England. He (Mr.
Hume) would say that that might be a very good reason why a
disposable force like the navy should be maintained. Govern.
meat haul now a force of e'53,0110 in arms, or ready to be called
into amts. In the King's Speech on the opening of the Session,
his Majesty had declared, that " at no former period has there
prevailed throughout all classes of the nimmunity in this island,
a more cheerful spirit of order, or a more just sense of the ad-
vantages, which, under the blessing of Providence, they enjoy."
The natural consequence of plenty was to make men satishetl.
With respect to Ireland, he was convinced other measures should
be adopted for her relief. It was not by keeping ups large body
of forces to coerce the people that the Insh were to be con-
ciliated. In every point of view the military establishment must
tend to irritate and offend the people of that country. It had
been said that the Irish people were disaffected. He denied
that they were so; they were not disaffected, but they were natu.
rally discontented with the system of government which had
hitherto been established in that country. It was still pomp esed to
preserve the terror of the bayonet, and not to adopt any mild or
conciliatory policy with regard to the people of that country. If
ouch a policy were adopted, there would be no necessity for the
large military force which 31inisters now required to be kept up
in that country. Ile proceeded to read that part of his 3lajesty's
speech, in which his Majesty directed the Commissioners to in-
form the House that " he had every reason to believe the progress
of our internal prosperity and improvement would not be disturbed
by any interruption of our tranquility abroad." After reading
some further passages from the Speech of his Majesty. at the open-
ing of the Session, he contended that at a time when internal order
prevailed, and when assurances of foreign alliance were given to
this country, it was inexpedient to augment the pre-existing inili.
tary force of the country. The increase on the present occasion was
justided on the ground of the necessity of sending out a force foe
enuring the tranquillity of the Colonies. Such a force, if neccs-
eery, might be sent out without any increase in the general
military establishment. It might be selected from the pre- I
Rent disposable force of the country. 'There were, for instance,
the foot-guards and cavalry, which could not be sent out of the
country: they might be reduced, as in the present state of in.
rental quiet they could be dispensed with, and a corresponding
force might be sent out to check the femieet of the Colonies. For ,
his part he was of opinion, that the femient there might be re-
strained without any military force whatever, if Ministers would
only act tidily : they ought to come forward and say, " We intend 1
to alter the state of the population there, or we do not ;" it was the
,tispeise created amongst them by the hopes which Ministers held
out, the; excited the ferment of which they now complained. This I
was an important connitieeation, when it was remembered 1
that the state of the West India Colonies was the alleged;
ground of the increase now propoeed. Ministers should de-
dare their intentions whether, in the ease of their emateipation
of the slave population, indemnity should be given to those pus-
shoed of West India property at present. Thus, Jr they only acted
fairly and evinced a disposition to fulfil the hopes which they them-
selves inspired, there would not be need of a single man in the colo-
ties, and perfect uar.ttuillity would be restored. No disposition to
disturbante existed in the colonies, except what the vacillating
policy of Ministers created ; and it was too much to call upon the
How! to suppress a discord which their own conduct only excited.
He (Mr. Hume) remembered last year, that the military force
which was then voted was voted solely on account of the then state
of the Cuotinent, and the possibility of this country bring involved
in a war. Were it not for that apprehension, he knew it was the
intention of same 31ctebers on his side of the Ilouse who thought
maturely on the subject—he did not know the intention of 3lcni- I
here on the other side, who he believed did rot think upon it—la
• Lug's)—to propose the reduction of five or ten theasacd in one milt-

'tiny establishment. nut, as affairs stood upon the Continent last
Session, the intended reduction was not proposed. Now, however,
with such internal peace and assurance of foreign friendship, the
reduction would be well-timed, and it was quite unreasonable to
hear of increase. Let the present military force of the country be
looked to; the Committee would see how unreasonable it was to
augment it. It was surelA unnecessary to have, in time of
peace, a standing army of „MO regulars, with 19,000 artillery,
veterans and manes, and 100,000 men liable to be sent out of
the country in a case of exigency. With such an overgrown mili-
tary establishment, it was unnecessary to augment it, and he hoped
that not a single man would be added to it. The notion of making I
this country a military power was one that ought not to be enter-1
seined ; the efllirts to do so hail cost us a vast expense,
and it had inflicted the most deadly stab on the constitution
of the country. (fur chief strength consisted in our naval
force, and 11.1 trusted that our future efforts would be directed to
ertablish it as such. Every practical reduction ought to be made
esmistent with the comforts of the country, and he would ask, was
it a proper manner of promoting those comforts to saddle the
country with an increased expenditure of two millions in a time of
peace ? Too much attention had always been paid to the military
power of England, whose Government, he contended, was radically
civil ; yet there was not a family in the country, which, through
various ramifications, was not connected with the army. Some re-
duction had certainly taken place within the last few years; but
they had only gone half way. The expenses of the army were now
about as heavy as in 1817, when the elements of a protracted war,
still fresh, justified, in some degree, the large expenditure of the
lanes year. I.'he amount of the Anny, Navy, and Ordnance esti-
malts, amounted, in 1817, tot:1950.0001., and now the total charge
exceeded 13,560.00 M., being a slight variation in the expenses of
two years in which the posture of affairs in this country was widely
',linen'. It appeared that the force for England was 23,000; for
Ireland, 20.000; ;tad abroad, 30,000__mak ng an aggregate of 73,000:
a force, togethet with the other disposable military of the country,
quite beyond its exigencies. This excessive vote was justified,
forsooth, on the plea of the present state of the West India Colo-
nies such a large pentiatient roue was to be kept up for the
sake of the Colonies, it wou'al be better to give them tip to the
proprietors altogether, and abandon the control and management'
of them entirely ; foe it was manifest, that if such a permanent
force was necessary, it would be only continued to the ruin of this
country, and to keep up irritation in the Colonies. An honourable
friend, who was not present, had given a happy analysis of
the Committee of 1017. He begged to refer to their recommenda-
tion : they stated, " that it was highly necessary to fix the point
which should form &madden' for the military establishment of this
country ; it should be their object to reduce it as much as possible,
so as to diminish the burden of taxation, and that the country
might pay off the debt contracted by a long and protracted war.
At the same time, the reduction should not be so low as that the
hazardous condition of the country would not he counterbalanced
by an adventurous economy." This was the recommendation
and the course of policy pursued ley Ministers would show how it
had been attended to. Notwithstanding all the professions of re-
duction, and calls for economy, no reduction had taken place to an
available extent. The state in which he would wish to see the
ecunify placed, with respect to its military establishment, was that
state in which it was situated in the year 171e3, a period to which
he had Si often referred that he was almost ashamed to recur to it. In
that year the standard was thirty thousand men, and the expense two
millions—and yet now, in a year of peace, with the pay of the men
doubled; with the depression of many individual interests of the
country • with a load of taxation, and an immense debt to dis-
charge, there was an excess of 13,000 men over the establishment of
1792. The Noble Lord had said, that although the pay was
deubled, yet the expense was not increased, for a regiment in 1792
consisted of 400 men, whereas now they consisted of 1,000. The
Noble Lonl argued, that by this increased number of men in a
battalion, the expense of a natl., and other extraordinary charges,
were spared the country ; and that the expense of 1792 was thus
equalized with the expense of the present time. The Noble Lord
seemed to argue in this instance, that two and two did not make
four. lle (Mr. Hume), contended, that a reduction did not, by the
lopping on' el the sniff and the other attendants on a regiment,
amount to the extent contended for on the other side. Since the
period he had alluded to, the expense created by an increased num.
ben of attendants on the army, had been greatly augmented. The
bands, for instance, which attended regiments, and which were
generally very numerous, were not originally contemplated by the
regulations of the service. It' the increase now proposed was
insisted on as necessary, a much more economical plan in raising
the men might be adopted. For instance, fifty men might be added
to each regiment, which, by the distribution of six or seven to each
company, would make up the proposed au genet itation of 1,560. Thus
the number would be secured without improper expenditure. lie
had no doubt that if these regiments were raised, proper colonels
would be appointed to them ; the most meritorious officers in the
service would be appointed to the coinr.uind of them : but what he
contended for was, that the command of them should not be given
to any officer, for they ought not to be raised at all. If all the
arrears to which the IN üble Lord paid such attention, and which,
like the legacy duty, were permitted so long to lie over, were col-
lected, they would nut be available to meet the improvident ex-
penditure which the present plan would require. Although the
various establishments and institutions of the country were under
the protection and authority of the Crown, yet the army was al-
ways considered under the espedal protection of the King, and he
was sure his Majesty would not sanction a disproportionate aug-
mentation of them to the oppression of the other Interests of the
country. If Ministers were sincere in an intention to economize,
they should direct their attention to the pensions and half-pay of
officers, which were sot as to frustrate any practical plan of
lie
begged to call the attention of the Com-
mittee to the circumstance of raising the Veteran Battalions when
a numerous body of half-pay officers were placed upon full pay.
On the breaking up of these battalions their officers retired on full
pay, and an expense of 274,0001. imposed upon the country. He
was desirous that every officer should be rewarded according to
his deserts, but really the burden of such an increased expenditure
on the country should also be taken into account. He would cer-
tainly press his amendment, under such circumstances, for the
reduction of ten thousand men. The disposable force then would
amount to 63,000 regulars, 19,000 artillery and marines, 150,000
militia and yeomanry, which were ready the an emergency. Ile
therefore hoped that the Committee would agree with him in opi-
nion, that such an army was all-sufficient the every pun.
pose for which it might now be called upon to act; and that
if additional troops were necessary in our West India Colonies, they
might be supplied from our pre-existing military establishment,
without increasing the burdens of the country. ( Hear.) He would,
therefore, move as an amendment, that all the words after the word
that," in the resolution, be left out, and that the following be
substituted

" That as his Majesty was graciously pleased in his speech from
the throne, to inform the noose that •at no former period has
there prevailed throughout all classes of the community in this
island, a more cheerful spirit of order, or a more just sense of the
advantages which, under the blessing of Providence, they enjoy.
• In Ireland, which has fur some time past been the subject of
his Majesty's particular solicitude, there are many indications of
amendment, and his Majesty relies upon your continued endea-
vours to secure the welfare and happiness of that part of the United
Kingdom.
" • II is Majesty has commanded us, further, to inform you, that
he has even rtason to believe that the progress of our internal pros-
perity and improvement will not be disturbed by any interruption
of tranquillity abroad.
•• • Isis Majesty continues to receive from the Powers, his allies,
and generally frim all Princes and States. assurances of their ear-
nest det.i.e to maintain and cultivate the relations of friendship with
Ids Ma:testy.'

" This Committee cannot, therefore, agree to any increase of the
number of the army since last year, but are of opinion that a stand-
ing army of t 13.1100 regulars, exclusive of 19,000 of artillery, ve-
terans, and marines, now embodied, and a large force el mili-
tia and volunteers ready on any emergency to be embodied, are
sufficient, under all the circumstances of the country,to be kept up."
The of the CO3IM ITTIX suggested, that the
proper [OUTSe for the Honourable Member to adopt, was to move,
that the amount of the force, or of the expense proposed, be di-
minished to the standard whiCh he wished to propose.
HUAIE replit.ll, that he was aware his amendment could
nut be reeordid in Committee, but there were reasons which induced
him to have it put to the Committee in the shape he had framed it.
The 'ltainhan cf the Committee then road the amendment in its
original form.
Mr. H. GI/RDON was desirous of saying a few words, as
the West India colonies had been introduced into discussion.
Ile was not so unfortunate as to be OW of those extensive pro-
prietors who had a large property in the colonies, and whom
it was the custom now to abuse both in this House and out
of it. Ile had, however, some property vested there, and was on
that account desirous of adverting
.to the suite of the colonies.
Ile thought he should deal most unjustly, it, haring formerly ad.
vacated the necessity of keeping a force in our West India Colo.
nits, he were now to impute blame to .Ministers for ptirmieg a
course, certainly he was not vain enough to imagine originating in
his recommendation, but still consister.t with it. lie thought dint
the Noble lord had treated the subject with great prudence. and
he could have wished, mot sincerely, that his Honourable Friend,
the member for :Montrose, had followed his example. Ile thought
that the Hon. Member for Montrrise hail done every thing in his
power to provoke a debate on the Irest India question ; a topic so
full of danger and delicacy, that at such a moment as the present,
a debtee was, on all hands, to be deprecated. The Hon. Alember for
Aberdeen was desirous that his Majesty's Alinisters should speak
out ; now he aitagether darted from his I lonourable Friend, and
entreated his :flaje-ty's Ministers to persevere is a prudent silence.
'pun the subject of the West India admits., he had every reascn
for sanetionie.• the proposed addition to the army ; but there sere
other reasons independent of the interest he felt in the coloaiem, for
the vote which he meant to give un that occasion. Were se not ,
just as likely to he involved in war this year as we were when the:
!len. Member for 31untrose supported a similar vote? Were we
not as likely to be engaged in a war cow h.r the sake of Greece and
her rising liberties, and her noble struggles, as we were last year ?
Wete we not just r.s likely, nay were we not touch niore likely to
be engaged in war in rcgsid to the trirsatlantic possessions of
spa.:n ? For these reasons he should most conscientiously rote
against the amendment of his Honourable Friend, time Member fur.
31 martyr.

Sir %V. 1/1: I:Rh:SiII:NV *aid, that he was precisely in a ni.
miiar predicament to his 'foam:rabic Fiirad who had spoke last.
fie approved of the vote tout deprecated the amendment. Ile
thought the force quite necessary for the preaenation of our Vies.t
India Colonies. and his only 'egret was. that in the recent appoint.
meats he did out find the rante of hi. flonnarable Friend, the
lethtfer for Ilratobn (31r. NVilberforce) as generalissinuo of the
forces. _

General GASCOVNE said, that he too had on this occasion
the thisfortuue of (Id:Ching Initti Ilk Friend, the illentber for
_Montrse. 1 here were, in his mind, other and stronger reasons
tiir the increic,c of the army than those urged by the 3leniber ter
Vtichlati:
,1;t. Gorden). The great eddiuon to cur co:onial tc:-

ritory, was in itself most ample ground for increasing our mi-
litary establishment. Mthen be mentioned to the House,—that
which the Noble Lord would not deny,—that many regiments bad
actually been consigned to the colonies for more than twenty y•fte
without relief, it was a strong ease, and one which clearly proved
the necessity of augmentation. For 17, for 20, and even fur 27
years, had many a regiment been absent from their country. lie
had prepared himself with a list of the different regiments long ab-
sent from England :—The Ist regiment of foot left England for
the colonies in 190 ii ; the 14th left this country at the same tune;
the .59th in 1805; the 17th in 1805; the 19th in 1808 • . the 117th in
!inn; the 47th absent front England 20 years; the 89th 19 years;
the 74th, with only four years intermission, 30 yam. Now. he
thought it extremely afflicting upon men who were filling a most
honourable station, the guardians of their country's honour, and
the preservers of the nation's character, that they should be com-
pelled to remain more than a felon's length of absence front their
native country • that more than twice the period for which a man
was sent from ilia home for some offence, sere these men banished
from their country. Many regiments, just on their return to Eng-
land from a long service, were, without the slightest preparation,
shipped off for the West Indies with nine days notice. But this
was not a West India question only, it was a question whether or
not we were to make our countrymen, our honourable and gallant
army, exiles for life? There was another argument urged by the
lion. Member for Montrose. If Ireland, he said, was quiet, there
could he no necessity for the extensive army quartered in that coun-
try. True; but had there been any suggestion for the tranquillity
of that country ? (" Yee" from Mr. Hume.) I admit, continued
the gallant General, that there has been a suggestion ; that various
remedies have been prescribed, and one, I believe, by the skill of
my lion. Friend, for the pacification of Ireland, but it was not a
remedy in the efficaciousness of which the House concurred. Was
the country then to wait for the tranquillity of Ireland before troops
were sent to the West Indies? He much feared that such a delay
would, like most delays, prove not only dangerous, but quite de-
structive. But the lion. 3lember for Aberdeen had called for the
reduction of the Guards. Did he not recollect that the Guards were
part of the established force of the country and that such a redue.
tioo applied to that force would be peculiarly unpopular. There
was one point, however, upon which he could not agree with the
Noble Lord, and that was in the selection of officers from the half.
pay to till up vacancies occurring in regiments abroad. He had
always been of opinion that when vacancies thus occurred, they
should be filled to,' not from the half-pay list, but from the officers
present, who had undergone the calamities incidental to war or cli.
mate. lie, however, upon every view of this case, sanctioned the
intended augmentation, and saw no advantage in the amendment
proposed by the Member for Montrose.
Mr. WODEIIOI'S E thought that the augmentation was due to
the %Vest India proprietors, and that a calm discussion was due to
that question whenever it was thought right to enter upon the dis.
regimentscussion. The fate of many of the regiments so long stationed in
our colonies had been very properly lamented, and the necessity for
it very properly deprecated by the lion. and Gallant Member for
Liverpool He himself was acquainted with one case, in which the
number of deaths in a single regiment in Barbadoes amounted to
2V officers and ;WO men. Now the circumstances of that case were
these:—That regiment was ordered out, not as a relief, but as a
reinforcement, and the clamour for reduction in this country forted
then out at an unhealthy period of the year. There they arrived,
unprepared fur that climate by that course of' regularity which was
so essential to their safety. Now if the lives of these men were of
consequence to the country, surely sonic means ought to be adopted
for their more effectual preservation. The infonitation that lie had
eomniunicated, the Committee might rely on it, was derived from a
moat authentic source : indeed it was communicated to hint by a
Gallant Officer, formerly a Member of that Howse, whom many
lion. Gentlemen knew, and no man could know without esteeming
him: he alluded to Sir Herbert Taylor. (Hear.) There was
another point in the speech of the lion. Member fur Aberdeen, to
which he was anxious to call the attention of the House. The Hon.
Member had said dust those who rat on that (Mr. Wodehouee'to
side of the House generally adopted the measures of Govern-
ment ; " Followed the leader" was the classical phrase of the /lon
Member for Aberdeen. lie would find, however, from the dis-
cussion in the Committee an that night, that a difference in opinion
front his (Mr. Hume's) sentiments was not restricted to what was
termed the Ministerial aide of the House. Not a solitary Member
of his own patty had supported him, and the lion. Gentlemen who
had risen rose to express their dissent to his proposed amendment,
So far, however, from being led upon this question by the opinion
of the Government, he hesitated not to say it, that the reductions
in the army had already been productive of the most pernicious
consequences. As to the phrases which have for their object the
censuring of a standing army, he did not think it necessary to reply
to them—it was most easy to use such phrases. They meant just
nothing, unless sustained by some instance of abuse much more
flagrant than any with which the lion. Gentleman had condescend-
ed to favour them. If the army was placed, as now it was placed,
under proper control, it was perhaps one of the best safeguards of
liberty. The lion. Member for Aberdeen was a professed admirer
of economy. Let him learn to love Constitutional liberty—let him
place himself under the guidance of a Noble Baron, to whom it
was not strictly regular fur him to allude ; he would never have to
regret the instruction which from that Noble Baron he might still
derive in the principles of liberty. He (Lord Holland) had not only
not regretted, but he had warmly supported the augmentation
which it was the object of the amendment of the Hon. Member for
Aberdeen to frustrate and render ineffective.

Mr. BERN.IL objected strongly to the system of quartering'
troops In the vicinity of towns immediately upon their reaching the ,
colonies. This was peculiarly the case with respect to Jantaies.l
That it arose from inadvertence—that it was the result not of pre-
meditation but accident, he could most easily believe. Still, how-
ever, it was very culpable negligence, since the loss of many lives
was fairly attributable to that error. If the troops were at once
sent into the country, disease might be avoided ; but they were fre-
quently detained even there, when disease *as most likely to be
engendered. The 50th regiment had safari' considerable loss
from such an oversight. I) ith respect to that system of relief, the
interval, the long interval, between which it was afforded to many
regiments, had been nonplaieted of, and justly, by the Hon. anti
Gallant Member for Liverpool ; but that delay arose, not from the
necessity of the case, but from a system of favouritism which pre-
vailed to a very considerable extort throughout the army. Under
that undue influence, it was the former practice of the Government
to exempt fusileer regiments and light infantry from colonial duty.
Ile was gratified, however, in saying, that such 611 exemption was
now falling into decay, and that for the future favouritism was not
likely to prevail with the Commander-in-Chief in this department.
With respect to cavalry, he was glad to know that for the first time
a regiment of dragoon guards had been sent to India. If this
practice were to prevail to any extent, he thought it would prove
most advantageous. Hearted with his lion. Friend, the Member
for Crichlsde (Mr. Gordon) that the four thousand men proposed to
be raised for the West Indies were quite necessary, and as to Ire.
land, he wished that the force destined for that country was not
equally necessary for her security.
Mr. 110BHOUSE said, that he rose with considerable reluc-
tance to trespass on the attention of the House. lie rose to sup-
port the amendment of his Ilonourable Friend the Member for
111outrose, though in voting with him he was likely to stand his
sole supporter in that House and perhaps in the country. (A.
laugh.) Sir, continued Mr. Ilikhouse, I affect not to conceal it.
I lament exceedingly that the spirit and the feeling which made up
en much of the character of my countrymen, should have for-
saken them, and that it should become the duty of their represents-
tires to excite some spark of indignation in their minds at such an
attempt as this night we witness-en attempt to break down the
very barriers of the Constitution and to destroy its splendid fabric
by slow, but, as it scents to me, unerring invasions. It is the
duty, then, of the representative of a free people, occasionally to
differ from his constituents, and, whenever be so differs, fully and
explicitly to state the cause of that differer.ce. I cannot too often
repeat that the attitude which this country saaurned during the re.
cent war in Spain, was not such a position as became this great and
mighty nation. Instead of haying truckled to tyranny and stooped
to the degraded condition to which our pusillanimous counsels then
reduced us, we ought to have rather chosen war, if war was neces-
sary. Then I say, that if in the contest we forfeited all hor.our—if
we were forgetful of our ancient character as &nation, why should
we now be called upon to participate in the expense of an army.
raised, it would appear, not for the annoyance and discomfiture of
tyranny abroad, but raised, I firmly believe it, to keep down
the people at home? I know it may be said that the people
have nothing now to fear from the existence of a standing ar-
my ; but my observation has been directed to the achievements
of a standing army at all times, and 1 find from history that it has
ever been the engine with which despotism has cut down the fiber.
ties of the people. With such eyes do I read history ; and so were
the people of England at one time accustomed to regard a standing
army ; but in these days 161 augmentation is looked upon as a mere
matter of course, scarcely north discussing. The Noble Lord
conies forward for the purpose of increasing the army by 1,000 men,,
and he seems to think that an apology is due, not so much our the
augmentation as for trespassing on the time of the Committee, by'
the explanation which the increase so obviously requires. 4400 men !
The Noble Lord seems to consider this as a trifling augmentation.
Does he not know that when a most important change took place
with respect to our security as a nation, not more than half that
number was required. In the year 1791, Mr. Pitt pronounced the
nation to be in a state of the most perfect security. Between the
years 1792 sad 1703, the hemisphere of Europe became so over-
clouded, that an augmentation was required, and 2000 men were
then raised. Now we are told that all is peace and tranquillity at
home: here then we have *2.2,009 men in England, and we are, as
it is said in his 31ajtaty's most gracious speech, in a most prosper-
ous and peaceable condition at home, but sane discontent has
arisen in the Colonies. Then there is for that discontent an easy re.
metly—let some portion of those 22,ite0 men, for which there is no ne-
cessity it)England. he sent to those colonies. In the reign of Cha. 11.
there were but 6,01111 men in our army. Only 6,009 men did this
arbitrary Prince require; and vet his patient Parliament, Paola-
tiled by all historians as one of the most subservient Parliaments
England ever saw, wottld not permit the protracted existence of
that force. This citeumstance I stated once before—l believe on
the first occasion that I had an opportunity of addressing this
llouse—and the Noble Lord condescended not to answer it : he
could not do so. lie could not deny the necessary jealousy
which, even in the worst of times, had watched the progress
of a standing army. That very night, as a mere matter of
course, had the Noble lord called upon them to vote a greater
force titan Cromwell had found necessary—the usurper Crom.
sell—for the subjugation of the country he had conquered,
and determined to rule by the sword. But suppose that the
Noble Lord wished for a force that he might have in readiness.
to draw upon when the necessities of the Colonies requited
such an assistance: to that measure he should not object, but
tome limitation should be placed to the number. As to the mill.
tare establishment in Ireland, it behoved this country narrowly to
look to that unhappy island—to change the proem of Government
there, and no longer to rule her as a conquered colony. In Ireland
*hare was now a force of about 35,900 men, who lived by the tenure
of their guns and bayonet'', and by. this simple engine of government
it was fancied we were to repair the wrongs so long inflicted

on Irtiand. With respect to the. erection of a limit in
the midst of the Metropolis, at Charing-cross, he decidedly objected.
But he wished to ask the Noble Lord, were the Mews to be con-
verted into barracks, and were the people to become so familiar-
ized with soldiers, as to have them placed in the very heart of the
metropolis ? He would not have trespassed so long on tLe pa-
tience of the House, but he was so fully aware of the mischiefs of
a military government, and the pernicious habits into which they
were falling, that he most cordially mounded tLe amendment of hts
lion. Friend, and he would have supported him if his amendment
had been to send the whole army out of the country.
Lord PA LIIEBSTON thought it was not incumbent on him
to say more than a very few words, because he had nodoubt but that
the Honourable Members fur Alontrose and Westminster would
stand alone in the amendment. In the first place, then, the Hon.
Member fur Montrose admitted that some additional force was
necessary in the West Indies, and be (Lord Palmerston) was de-
sirous of knowing where this additional force was to come from,
but by an augmentatim. of our military establishment. He stated
in the next place, that be and his friends voted last year for the
force proposed, bt•cause it was asserted that this country was in an
uncertain state as to the continuance of peace, and he therefore
thought it necessary a respectable force should be kept up. Now be
(Lord P.) considered that the Hon. Member had taken a greatliberty
with the house in advancingsuch an observation, becauseat thatperiod
it was distinctly understood that there was not the slightest probe.
bility of any interference on the part of this weedy with conti.
rental politics, to such an extent as would involve It in • war.
The lion. Member likewise stated, that if certain measures were
adopted with regard to Ireland, the means might there be found
of reinforcing the colonial garrisons. In this he diffind from the
lion. Gentleman, and did not think that It would be politic, uncle.
any circumstances, to reduce the force at present in that cour.try,
Another argument of the Hon. Member for Montrose was, that
a redaction should take place in the Guards and in the cavalry s
yet he put it to the candour of any Hon. Gentleman who bean'
him, to ear, on looking at the actual state of the army, if either
of these forces was at all disproportioned to the infantry. The
lion. Member suggested that the militia and yeomanry might be
called on to supersede the regulars, who might then be put on
foreign service. But the Hon. Member should recollect that these
services could not be relied on, nor could the militia be called out
but under certain circumstances. The Hon. Member argued that,
admitting the augmentation to be necessary, it might have been
mat.e at less expense by increasing the regiments then in being,
instead of raising new ones. But it happened that the Govern.
meet had considered both plans, and had decided that the raising
six new regiments was the cheaper mode; the only difference Of
adding to the old regiments, and raising new ones, was in the pay
of the officers, the whole of whom were taken from the helf.pay
list, anti therefore the only increased expense was between half and
full pay. An Hon. Member had made some allusions us to the
mode of quartering the troops in the Wei Indies. This subject
!bad occupied the attention of Government fur some time past, and
measures had been taken for remedying the evils attendant on the
present mode. Particular attention had also been paid as to tl:e '
time of sending out troops to the West Indies. The regiment al.
hided to that hal been sent out in 1819 was sent out under very urgent
and particular circumstances, such as would not probably recur.
The lion. Member for Westminster was the possessor of singular
and peculiar opinions (laughter); and by stating them he had nq
doubt that he would continue singular in them, because he had
given no reasons calculated to produce converts to hi way of
thinking; but he would put it to the Hon. Gentleman, whether
he did not sometimes put those opinions forward at very improper
seasons, and when they were calculated to do harm?
' Mr. HOBIG WS}, rose to say, that the Noble Lord, for the
sake of rounding a period, had exaggerated what he had stated ;
but he (dlr. liobhouse). was not the exclusive possessor of the
opinions, and he should be sorry if the interests of the people of
England were to be left entirely to so weak an advocate; but he
thought the Noble Lord ought to have done him more justice for
the statement of those opinions, as he was convinced that they
I would do less harm than the speech of the Noble Lord. Yet he
! must express his regret that the people of England bad not more
advocates in that House.
Cola D.AVI ES observed, that by the Returns on the table, he
found that the garrisons in the It est Indies were formed wholly of
regiments of the line, and not by any Colonial force; he was con.
vinced that there would be no difficulty in disciplining a colonial
force on the same principle as was adopted in India ; he merely
threw this out is a suggestion for the consideration of Government.
Mr. dIE would not detain the House at any length, but he •
must first of all state that he did not consider the gallant General
((.ascoyne) was exactly the person whom he would select as a juror
on this occasion, as he seldom found an officer who was prepared
to vote for the reduction of the army I he therefore would put
him out of the box altogether. lie was very sorry to find that his
amendment did not meet with more support from his side of the
House. He remembered when a question of this nature would
have tilled the benches below him, which he now regretted to see
were nearly empty, but he trusted that the time would come when
this question would be treated as a Constitutional one, and that be
might be able to pass through the streets of London, without being
jostled by the soldiery as if he were parading a garrison. He was
still of opinion, that in the eighth year of peace, an army 82,000
men was a very great number ; yet, if the House did not concur ).1
with him, he could not help it.

3lr. C'II,CRA FT stated that what had fallen from his Hon.
Friend, rendered it neres•ary that ha should say • few words.
Every body who had spoken this evening, was of opinion that an
additional force ought to be sent to a certain part of our empire,
I and it was therefore proposed that there should be an augmentation
lof 4,300 men. His lion. Friend behind him thought on thecon.
I nary that there should be a diminution of 10,800 men, and here
he differed from his lion. Friend. Ilia lion. Friend complained
of the absence of 31embers, but he should recollect that those
1131 embers attended when their presence was really necessary, and
argued for, and obtained the reduction that was considered reason-
able. lie concluded by stating that he should oppose the
amendment.

The house then dig ide I on Mr. H ume's amend
Noes, 102; Majority against the amendment, 92.

ICS, 10 ;

On our readmission to the riflery,
Lord PALMERSTON moved for the aura of 92,2871. 16s. 6d.
for pay and allowances to the General and Stall Officers serving in
Great Britain, for the year 1821. Granted.
The sum of 21,7851. 18,. 51. for pay and allowances of General
and Staff Officers serving in Ireland, for the year 1t24. Granted.
111,5100 L 13s. 2d. fur the expenses of Public Departments.
Granted.
12.&921. Ss. for medicines and surgical materials for his Majes-
ty's forces serving in Great Britain, for the year 1821. Granted.
4,5581. 12s. 6d. for medicines. &c. for the forces serving in Ire-
land, for the year 1821.—Granted.
134,000 for the pay and allowances of volunteer corps serving in •
Great Britain, for the year MM.—Granted.
19,3431 12a. fld. for the pay and allowances of volunteer corps In
Ireland, for the year 1821.—Granted.
639,696 L 6a. litd. for regiments in the East India Company's hr.
ritoriis, fur 182.1—Granted. _ _

211,25111. 2s. Id. for recruiting troops and companies for ditto, for
1831.—Granted.

i 1,4231111;. Id. for the expenses of the Military College, for
1824. Granted.
1119.1701. for the army pay of Oenaal Officers, for 1024.
Granted.
29,6351. 13a. 10d. for garrisons, for 1024—Granted.
134,4421. full pay for retired officers, for 1024.—Granted.
1433,11921. 4s. lid. for half-pay and military allowances, for IfE4-
-Granted.

111,2t9.11. for foreign half-pay, for 1824—Oranted.
32,9921. 70. Id. for the in-pensioners of Chelsea Hospital, for
1824.—Granted.
Cl 4171. la, 116. for ditto of Kilmainham.--Granted.
1,219,407 L Ils. Ild. for the out-pensioners of Chelsea Hospital.
--(hawed.
23,1194 L As. 3d. for the Royal Military Asylum, for 1824....
Granted.
131.2.111. for widows' pensions, for 1824.—Granted.
189,3841. 13s. 9d. for the compassionate list, bounty warrants,
and pensions for wounds, for 1824.—Granted.
41,9481. 13s. 7d. for superannuation allowances, for 1824. E
Granted
33,000 for Exchequer fees, for 1824.—Granted.
NAVY E&TI3IATES.

The Home then went into a Committee on the Navy Ecthnatea.
Sir GEORGE CLERK moved, that the sum of 63,)1n81. be
,ranted for the salters and contingent expenses of the Admiralty,
for 1821.

Mr. 311-. observed, that there was great dissatisfaction
amongst the artificers employed in dock-yards, at the reduction of
their salaries, which was not in due proportion to the reduction
that had been made in the salaries of the higher officers.
Sir GEORGE CLERK thought that there was no reason for
clirtatisfaction on that subject, lie would state the ground on
which the Admiralty had acted respecting artificers t it was at first
thought advisable, when there waa not full employment for them
all, to limit their earnings instead of throwing them adrift. About
a year since it had been thought advisable to adopt a general re-
duction of the scale of prices, instead of limiting their earnings,
which he thought was the preferable course.
The lion. Member then moved—

_ .
t'.9,79.11. for the salarica of the Navy Pay-office, for 1&44.
Granted. _ _ _

for the salaries and expenses of the Navy Office, fcr
Int.—Granted.

16:417.T0T1i1e salaries and expenses of the Navy 01lit:, foe
17121.--Granted

17,8151. 12s. lid. for the salaries of Otficas of the Deptford
rartl.—Granted.
19,3(41. Ins. for Woolwich Yard.—OrantesL
21,61411. for Chatham Yard—firanted.
1ti,3311. for sheerness Tard—Branted.
3%,49.11. fur Portsmouth Vard.—Onuited.
31,22tiL for Plymouth l'ard.--Oranted.
6,41101. for Pembroke Vartl.—Granted.
2,2111. for the Out-ports.—Branted.
476,4001. for the Salaries of Artificers, Labourers, and Agents,
fur the year 1824.--Granted.
str;,lNmoi. for timber and stores of ships. for 1834.—Granted.
Alt. H l:1111; wished to ask the l iallant Mbar opposite what had
been the result of the experiments resorted to for the purpose of
stopping the dry rot in vessels?
Sir BYAM MARTIN, in reply, assured the lion. Member
that the dry rut had diminished. Ships built and repaired since the
conclusion of the war, he had every reason to believe, were more
likely to last than any others. Coal tar had been discontinued, and
salt water used in its stead, to prevent dry-rot, and which had been
found adequate to the purpose. lle considered the book that Air.
Burridge had written on the subject fallacious in many instances.
Mr. MIME said, that he should certainly introduce the book
to the attention of the House, for he thought many of its sug-
gestions deserving of credit. lie fully concurred with Air. Pur-
ridge in one opinion, that it would be pretarble to make sac of