The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1824-02-28 00:00:00

less not en. Similar laws were in foam in Prance, is Holland, In
Gowan', and in Prussia, end they was recognized in Prince,
even under the Code ltlepoleon. It was most true that every law
hod its advantages and disadvantages, but it was no argument
against laws that they were sometimes infringed on. He (Mr. Hey_
gate), would state from good authorities, that the Usury Laws
thrltt the country were respected and obeyed. If they were
, no one would know how much he could get or how much
ir;;Tio pay for money ; and one man, who had a little more
cunning. would always obtain more interest than another. in Lon-
don, it is true, there would be competition; but such would not
be the case in coundy towns, where generally there was but one
nom to lend, and who would get his own price. Then if a person
were refused money at a certain rate, he must go and shew his title
spun in the market, and be subjected to new inquiries; so that
'misty would prefer paying more than they ought, to avoid this
disagreeable task. As to the justice of the ease, he (Mr. Ileygate)
would ask what right any man had to possess or lend money ab-
stractedly at all? He only hail a right to have money for the good
of the state, subject to such laws of management as the stae
thought proper. to enact. lle (Mr. Ileygate) made this °biter-
tattoo because it had been wetted that there existed the same
right to make profit on money as on lands. But dry
money paid nothing to the State—it escaped taxation, and wu
the only thing that did so. The State.—not only this,
but every other stair,—plated restrictions on money fur wise our-
poses. Ile( Mr. Ileywate) was now speakiag against his own in-
terests, for be knew the repeal of the usury laws would place a
considerable auto in his pocket. He was quite ready to admit that
the repeal now would not have much affect in any way. But this
was not to be for ever. In ease of a war it would be very different.
The main argument of those who sought the repeal was, that the ,
laws effect injuriously the various interests of the country. But '
these interests are the Government. No one can deny that by these
laws the Government was able to get money at a lower rate, and if
such had not been the ease the national debt, which is at present
eight hundred millions, would have been, perhaps, twelve hundred
imllions. It ass stated, that the law injured the agriculture! inte•
rests; but would not the country bankers, who are the principal
lenders, who were satisfied to take now, as they were during the war,
5 per cent, demand and exact a much higher sum ? (Hear.) The
tendency of the repeal could only be to aggrandise a few capitalists,
and to place all the money of the ((sunny in the hands of two or
three individuals. Another injurious effect it would have, would
lie to introduce wild speculations of every kind into the country.
Ile (Mr. Heygate) thought the repeal of these law. would be ex-
tremely injurious to individuals and to the cotio!ry, and he en-
treated the House to pause before they departed from the usages
of their ancestors
Mr. W. 11' NN an little disposed to change any law on mere
theoretical grounds ; but he would ask, were there not practical
evils resulting from the Usury lama? 11-hat was the system of our
ancestors, which had been alluded to ? On the same principle that
they fixed the value of money, they fixed the value of a hog or a
chicken ; and he (Mr. Wynn) really thought the one was as sen-
sible as the other. The law, which not only condemned a man to
death for his crime, but his whole family with him, was just as
old as the other law; and he thought if one were supported the
other should be so also. Ile thought the capitalist had as much
rigin to make a profit on his money as any dealer had on his
plods. There could he no better authority on this subject than
Adam Strain, who had completely stated all the arguments against
it, and as completely tefuted all the arguments in favor of the
Usury Laws.
Mr. CA lA',RAFT regretted that the Learned Gentleman (Ser-
geant Onslow) should have pressed on the question at this late
hour. He was surprised that his Majesty's Ministers, live of whom
had seats in that House, should not have honoured the House with
their company this evening. Ile differed totally on the subject
front his Honourable Friend (Mr. Baring) who sate near hint. All
wen knew that the country had prospered in proportion as it had
reduced the rate of interest, from the reign of henry the nth,
when it commenced, to that of Queen Anne, when it received its
present limits. Ile knew that if the motion of his Hon. Friend
passed the House, its tendency would he to unsettle the Country.
His Right Honourable Friend had stated that money engagements
were made for a term of years ; but would this be the case in
figure ? Would men be mad enough so to sacrifice their interests
if the motion passed ? His Honourable Friend had also stated
that much as he disliked the repeal of old standing laws, he wished
for the repeal of this. becauset here were vactical evils attending it;
but could he say that if the laws were changed the evils would not
be grimier ? With respect to this law he thought it dishonest, and
be had authorities to support him--Mr. Bentham, Dr. Paley. and
others. The law now lobe exploded, had still its defenders, though
they might be decried like many that came after them. It was said
the other evening, that no man of sound understanding dissented
ftom that proposition ; but though there were only a few who
thought otherwise, he still thought they were right. They might
be prejudiced and stupid ; but he knew that many persons in the
country not only agreed with them, but seemed to be firmly con-
vinced of the propriety of their opinions. Money might be had in
Lostlo i at 3 per cent., but in the country it could not be had for
less than 5 per cent. It was very lightly talked of that mort-
gages could be transfsrred ; bet look at the fresh expenses in doing
so—look at the dims' detail of law expenses, and going front
person to person to eff:ct such an exchange. The foolish, stupid,
short-sighted country g.mtlernen with whom he had wised, thought
that if this Bill was passed it would materially affect them.--
When the Bill wee once canted—when the hurra was raised
for usury—all the prejudice, perhaps vulgar prejudice, against
money lenders, would be done away. Do those prejudices away,
and the respectable class of solicitors would open the full career
of low, mean, debased avarice, and the country gentlemen would
be put down. The country gentlemen would, however, be indebted
to Sergeant Onsiow for paying eight, nine, or ten per tent., in
piece of the old five per cent.; they would be indebted to the ad-
ministration of this day foe such a claim to their thanks and grad.
tude. To be sure he must say, he was on the Committee, yet he
was the only one who put a question in cross-examination. In feet,
if he were not mninded of his being on the Committee, he would
not have recollected it, so little was the part he took on the Com-
mittee; he relied upon the evidence of Mr. Preston, Mr. Rothe.
child and Mr. Gurney, as decidedly supporting his opinion. If
the law allowed the taking any rate of interest, he doubted much
if these gentlemen would-be any longer able to give such testimony
as they had given. Before they passed such a law, minute inquiry
was abet-dui-1y necessary ; and one thing was certain, namely,—if
the measure was necessary, it should be taken up by the Govern.
ment, and upon their own responsibility. Whether Usury Laws
existed in Holland or not, was a matter of little importance, because
the landed securities there were trivial in the extreme. In France,
it was,however, different, for in 1793 the Convention declared,money
to be mere merchandise. How long did that law last ? nom April
11 to May 4; and such a law was now sought to be introduced here.
But he asked what benefit was to be gained by the change? Why,
it was said, that the capitalists might have the enjoyment of their
capital, and that was a very captivating sound ; but the question
was, was this House to decide for their interests and not for the
general interest ? The capitalist could employ his money as he
pleased; but the borrowers were obliged to take as they could
get; and surely their interests should be attended to, because,
generally speaking, the borrowers were the minority interested in
this question. Before the 801 l now proposed was pseud into a law,
he trusted the general question would undergo more detailea
inquiry.
Sir It. HERON proposed, In order to get rid of the question
at this Iwo hour, that the House do now adjourn. (Cries of order,
order, hear, hear.)
Mr. HUSKIdOON contended that the discussion of all clues.
twos involving particular interests should be met upon their indi-
vidual merits. It was said that this measure should be proposed
by his Majesty's Ministers ; but it was new to him to hear such a
doctrine, especially as the present was not a new proposition, but
one agitated for years, and that by the same Learned Gentleman
who had introduced it year after year. Foe himself, he gave his
opinions as he felt, and as he thought the interests of the commu.
my required. Ile agreed that men upon this question might con-
scientiously differ, but he could not help saying that he felt this
tomsure as one of groat natiodal importance. His view of the
question was, that the laws as they existed were oppressive to those
who wanted to borrow. (Hear, hear.) Lender and borrower were
placed in relative situations; but it was said, admit this Bill and
do away with the obloquy against the usurious lender. But why
restrict the lender more than any other capitalist ? If the lender
took too much, the borrower had his advantage against the
lender by the obloquy which he heaped upon hint ; and the
chances which he took of having his principal lowered, as well as
his interest. The borrower was now protected against an illegal
rate of interest ; but see how the 'aides was situated. He lost all
his capital, and was that to be endured? If it were, capital must,
in a great degree, be destroyed. In fact, if the borrower knew his
interest, he would find, after all. that he was the loser by the con-
tinuance of the present laws. During the war, Mr. Preston, that
favourite witness relied on by the Hon. Member (Mr. Caleraft),
stated that the borrower must pay more interest for money : but if
interest were above five per cent. for a series of years, he knew
that the Court interposed to protect the borrower against the foreclos-
ure, in violation of the contract into which he had entered. He dis-
puted not the law, but look at its hardships, and the consequence
would be, that the borrowing money, according to law, would be
more difficult than lino such law existed. The lender should have
some fair return ; and if he had not, the borrower would smut feel
himself in a most unpleasant situation. During the last war bor-
rowers 'erre obliged to pay a great interest, and so far the value of
land was lessened ; and that might be the case where the lender had
to contend with the disadvantages of the existing law. Probably
Mr. Gurney and other; procured money, or lent money on most.
gage at five per cent., but then acne other charges, amounting to
bye per mitt. more, by way of procuration, &c., and then would
it not be strange to say that money was obtained at five per cent. ?
Some Gentlemen went to China, France, and Holland. to chew
they had usury laws; but could those laws, he asked, be
carried into effect? And were there not, however, the means of
evading them if they existed ? Why even in this country they
were evaded, in the shape of annuitiea and all those ruinous expe-
dients which were resorted to, as destructive between man and man,
and degrading the best elements of civilised society. Capital,
should be allowed its benefits; and the borrower, if he wants money
ought to pay for it as an individual wanting any other article which
lie could not obtain without a high premium. When the rate of
interest was lowered in the reign of Queen Anne, it was the state
of capital abroad produced that change • and he thought the Hon.
(slr. Calcraft) on that ground should be the first to go
into a Committee of Inquiry oil that subject. It was said that
'wine? had nothing to do with bearing the burthens of the state;
but that proposition he could not understand. If he, or any other
individual derived an increase from capital in money, be had to Pay
in Proportion to other persons having a capital in land or manufte.
tem. For these reasons he felt it his duty to support the motion.
Sir H. HERON said if this Bill were carried it would be in
dint oppeaition to the morals of every age and country. Prus-
sia Ond Holland were adverted to, and he WY astonished that the
legitimate Government of Turkey was not also noticed. Holland
a country of merchants and money-lentlers, and few land-
: °dry's; Prussia was not free, and nothing could be free in a