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London, England, 1805-05-11 00:00:00

einster, and Connaught, called for Parliamentary
reform, or what was sailed Catholic Emancipation ?
To which itiwas answered, no ; this WAS not their ob-
ject, but what they wished to be relieved from was
the payment of tythes. We find then that the oh-
Jeff; now pursued, of seats in Parliament, and chief
utfices ut trust and dignity, were not then. and in-
deed eoulu not he, even in the co-.templa:ion of the
Irish Catholic,, at the time of the hid' rebellion ;
these were ohjeCt., about which the lower orates
that religious community could have felt no interest
whatever; and I firmly believe, that the present
question, even if carried, would be of as little avail
to the mass of the Catholics of Ireland as any of
those objects were, which excited their leaders to fo.
ment the late disturbances in that country. But,
roe Lords, whilst you are called upon to give the
Catholics of Ireland that which, as a body, would
he of little or no service to them, I must at the sante
time contend, that whilst you give but little, you
part with much,
Which not enriches them, but mAkes you poor indent.
Considerable indulgencies have already been granted
to the Catholics of Ireland, and various penal and
severe statutes against them have been repealed dur-
ing the present reign. Not that I complain of those
relaxations, or apprehend that the indulgencies
already granted will prove of any pernicious
consequence, provided you do nut proceed to
grant them what still remains. I care not, my
Lords, how much the Irish Catholics enjoy under
the State; but take away the few salutary and pru-
dent restrietions which still remain, and they would
be the State themselves, and possess almost the
whole sovereign power and jurisdittion. Upon this
subject. my Lords, there is another matter which
ought to be taken under our serious consideration,
as connelted with the present question. Supposing
the few remaining restrittions to be removed, and
the prayer of the petition to he granted, would the
Catholics of Ireland he satisfied with this ? and
would they not feel encouraged to ask for something
farther? I am the rather induced to propose this
for your consideration, because, although I acknow-
ledge the present petition from the Irish Catholics
is couched in cautious and rrspettful language ; I
think I perceive in it expressions which chew that
they are not satisfied wall the test which they are at
present obliged to take, and which they seem to
consider as a hardship imposed upon then'. The
conclusion is. that they expeft you must give up the
test altogether. Such is the effeet of concession. I
do not melt; to complain of the indulgencies of the
Irish Legislature ; but I fear that in their effeCts they
have produced but little satisfaCtion. The Homao
Catholics of Ireland applied a few years ago to have
the privilege of the eh:Clive franchise. It was grant-
ed them ; but even then they looked to farther con-
cessions; and I may veirore to say they would do
the same now, sapposing the objeft of their present
application was obtained. My Lords, I hesitate not
to say. that I consider the law as it now stands, with
respea to the Roman Catholics, as the outwork of
the establishment, civil and religious, of this coun-
try; as such, I call upon you here to make your
stand, and to defend it ; for be assured, that it you
give it up. you will ;lave to fight for it again, and
under very considerable disadvantage. Loose, in-
discriminate concessions, without a view to all rela-

Live circlimstanies, Are, in my opinion, had policy.
I giant, thac :he former concessions to the Irish
'An Cathlgics were beneficial, inasmuch as the
• old penal statutes against them were severe and op-
pressive ; at the same time I cannot help remark-
ing. that whilst during the two rebellions in 1715
and 1745, Iteland was tranquil ; since the conces-
sions have been granted, a rebellion has broken nut
in that country. These concessions were of little
consequence as to the substance of them, but not

s as to the moment when they vc, re grants 1 ; for
they served to throw the country in a vete of irri-
tation. and to excite a pertinacity in the Roman
Catholics of Ireland to makq farther demands. I
therefore, my Lords, cannot but give it as my opi-
nion, that the wisest method to adopt towards them
is to make them sensi:ile that it is your determina-
tion to adopt towards them a steady system of po-
licy. The general rule in all well regulated go-
vernments, I take to be, that those invested with
power and magistracy, should conform to the esta-
blished religion of the country. This was the case
in ancient times, with regard to Athens and Rome ;
and, in modern times, in almost every stale, with
one or two exceptions. It has been thus in Hol-
land—in the elective monarchy of Poland—in the
cantons of Switzerland, Sic. Such also was the opi-
nion of our glorious deliverer (afterwards King
William), who being consulted just before the Re-
volution, gave it as his opinion, that new laws ought
nut to be introduced, nor old ones abrogated on the
sonjed of religion. The only places which form an
esception to this general rule are France, which, in
t' e Nati( nal Assembly, proclaimed the equality of
all religions, and the United States of America;
but the experiment has not proved successful, and
from accurate observers and travellers, it has been
Viand, that the only cleft ha; been, to produce a spi-
rit of indifference to religion. The eat on of the mo-
tion now prposed by the Noble Baron would go to
the Repeal of the Corporation and Test Ads of this
Country (the former of which was principally shred-
ad as a guard against the Di oienters, and the latter
against the Papists), of the Bill of Rights, and the
Ad of Settlement. Is there any Noble Lord present
who is prepared to go itch lengths as these ? Upon
the whole, thei , !deem it no; too &noels us ma, ill call
upon you to cling to that system of ia ws by which you
have hitherto enjoyed whatever is VA lusble. It is by an
adherence to these laws, that you will at up to the
'virtu ps.licy, and thus hand down to your posteri-
ty, unimpaired and unchanged, what you yourselves
have deemed your choicest birth-right. I confess,
my Lord. that the speech and motion, of the Noble
I.rd this evening appear to me to go to the most
alarming event. The motion roars no dotinSion
between S,-.11 air; and the Established Chinch,
whilst at the stole time it points art no pi-AR:ell
benefit likely to result from the ad op•ion of it.—
The simple qurnion at present is, wrcther it be ex-
tdient nor to refer the Petition to a Committee?
Aviv c't'J'Aion I have stated to he to the general
principle; but whatever be the !pound of objedion
you may take op. you will of course feel it to be
Your duty to mist the motion. I sit down declaring
.to lie my Jet -rmination to supp,rt the ere-sent sys-
tem ornJcrwhich this c. uatry has ro long Cur is4d."
The Duke of CUMBEIL.AND thottAht the sen-
titscati of the natio* were against as appeared '

from several V.:el:ions which bad Already been pre-
senteJ, anti others which were preparing Against it.
Earl SPENCER denied, that the prayer of the
Petition went to the establishment of the Ronan
Catholic Petition, or to the repeal of the Aa of Se!.
Element. Ms Lordship concluded with supporting
the motion.

Viscount SI DMOIT 111 declared, that while
he was willing to go the whole length of toleration,
lie could not go the whole length which the Ndble
Lord who proposed this motion had suggened. He
believed the chat-after and views of the Roman Ca-
tholics to he upright and sincere; but he was sorry
that they were placed in such situations, when obe-
dience to the impulse of what they considered
to be duty might prove disastrons to the country.
His Lordship then took a retrospeCtive view, from
which be inferred, that, from the Reformation
down to the Revolution, the necessities of the times
had imposed those measures which had been adopt-
ed against the Catholics, and that no instances could
be produced, in which Protestants and Papists had
agreed in exercising the Government of the country.
" Let us," said his Lordship, " preserve our Protes-
tant King and Protestant Parliament. A Pro-
testant Parliament preserved this country from
the danger of a Popish King. Let us follow
the example of our Protestant deliverer (King
William), and whilst we treat with respea our Ro-
man Catholic fellow subiefte, take guard against
their acquiring additional power in the state; fur
of this we may be assured, that every step we take
in this matter will be attended with danger."
' Lord MULGRAVE thought the question should
not have been brought forward at this moment, as
it could only tend to revive religious animosities ;
his confidence in the expediency of the measure was
considerably shaken, when a question of such deli-
cacy. and such importance, was agitated at this
time. lie thought there were sufficient reasons for
not going one step further, and he should vote
against the motion,
Lord HOLLAND—" My Lords, I confess I
thought that the Noble Baron who opened the de-
I bate, had so completely forestalled all the ohjeaions,
that could possibly be urged against his moti in. as
to leave m! nothing new to aid. I find, however,
that there is somethiag for me to answer, and that
other arguments have sprung up in the debate, which
he could not possibly have foreseen. The arguments
of two Noble Lords and a Noble Viscount have fill-
ed me with surprise ; for if they could be Made out,
they would he produaive of the greatest calamity to
Ireland. With one of these Noble Lords, though
this is the first time I ever had the honour of sitting
in this House with him (I.;ird Ilawkesbury), I never
agreed, and I fear I am not likely to agree now, but
I hope it never will make any difference in our
friendship; I trust I shall not so completely mis-
take the ohjea of the motion, as he and another
Noble hoed (Mulgrave) have done. It appears to
the from the arguments of the Noble Lord, that the
House ouglit to go into a Committee, for the pur-
poSe of rescinding all those horrible measures of em-
ersion which have been granted to the Catholics
but when I heard the Noble Viscount (Sidmnuth)
on the same side, talk of the tranquillity of Iteland,
the tire& of these concessions, I did expel he would
advise going into a Committee for the purpose of ex-
tending them. The arguments divided themselves
into two kinds ; l,t. wh ..ther it were proper to grant
any thing to the ItompriCatholics; and, 2dly, whether
the present were a proper time ? Upon these two species
of argument I shall not occupythe Ilonse at anygreat
length. It is a strange objea ion to my Noble Friend's
mation to say that he proposes an entire repeal of
al! securities of our Constitution. The Noble Lord
Dlawkesburyl thinks that my Noble Friend wishes
to repeal the Bill of Rights, and the A& of Settle-
meet. Why, it a stranger, unapprised of the nature
of the proceeding, were to come into this House, he
would conclude, from the speeches of the Noble
Lords, that the objea of the Petition was to make
the Roman Catholics the kings of the country. The
Noble Viscount says, it is impossible that those who
objeaed to the minor claim of the test ea, could
give their assent to one of so much greater extent
as the present; this is a strange argument. The
motion is for a Committee, in which one ni in may
vote for one indulgence, and another man may
be for granting an indulgence of a di feient
.kind; but to refuse the motion, you must be pre-
pared to say, that the laws respeling the Ro-
man Catholics are complete, and no firth-r con-
cession whatever must be granted, or that this
is not the proper time for the application. The
Noble Secretary (Hawkesbury) has drawn a dis-
tinaion between civil rights and political power,
and he contends that no country would aimit
subjea to the enjoyment of the letter without a test.
This argument, I think, cannot be consistently
urged. A Noble Lord says, toleration to the Roman
Catholics is now complete. Does he mean to say,
that fur the enjoyment of civil rights, persons of that
persuasion should be admitted to sit in both Houses
of Parliament, but that they ought to be excluded,
lest the indulgence should bring them into posses-
sion of political power. I fancy, however, that with-
out political power civil liberties are not very secure.
I have lied lately an opportnnity of knowing the
state of Ireland, and I do know that the state of the
Roman Catholics, in their present exclusion, is herd
and galling. We boast of the Constitution ot Eng-
land. We call upon the people to submit to priva-
tions, to secure to them the enjoyment of that Con-
stitution. Now, does the Noble Lord think that it
must not diminish the love of that Constitution,
and the temptation to submit to privations (Or its
support, if the full enjoyment be withheld? It, at
the time of the Union, you agreed to that mea-
suse, meaning, however, to refuse the full benefit
of the Constitution to the Catholics, I say it was a
delusion, and the Irish Catholics have not the ad-
vantage which they expc'ted from it. There is
another g, ievance which in the present state of the
Irish Catholics is felt, particularly in the army, which
is deprived of the service of men of courage and
talents, who, but for the disabilities that now exist,
would fill its ranks. This grievance strikes me
the more forcibly, as I have had lately an opportu-
nity of seeing Irishmen sealous in the service ..f an-
°time country (hi, Lordship is jun returned from
bpai.), who had left their own on account of the
obstacles thrown in their way by their religion.—
The army is remarkable for 4 high sense of ho-
nour, and, as the grievance to which I allude comes
in collision with it, the tired is the greater. A Re-
Smiting ser,ieitat may so into a country town i's

Ireland to beat tip for recruits, and he may pi-I-
mam them the free exercise of their religion should
they enlist with him. No inconvenience will be
felt upon that suhjeEt, while they remain in Ireland ;
but suppose the regiment should be sent to hi:gland,
what is the case then ? The Roman Catholic sol-
dier is ordered to go to church, and he has no op-
portunity of going to mass to preform worship ac-
cording to the fors* of his own persuasion. Is not
this a great grievance ? and, as a Noblo Friend sug-
gests to me, Catholic officers, when they come here,
are siihj?& to the same inconvenience. The Noble
Secretary of St.IIA says, the Catholics do not care
about the question, and for this he quotes the autho-
rity of Arthur O'Connor and Dr. M‘Neven ; but
I think, that however competent these two men
may be to speak for themselves, they are not com-
petent to answer for the whole of the Catholic
body. It is strange that the Noble Lords should
boast so much of the Revolution of i tied, holding the
arguments which they do. Does the Noble Secre-
tary mean Niel, that if James the Second had net
been a Papist, Englishmen would have submitted to
his arbitrary ads? If religion were any thing but a
secondary objeiL, if it had peen merely the ease, it
would greatly tarnish in my eyes the great and glori-
ottszra of 1688. If Popery only wasthe queition,and
King William bad convened a Popish to a Protestant
Government, he would have deserved great praise ;
but I think that the revolution of 1688 was of a
higher nature, and upon a broader basis. I think
it was more against arbitrary principles than she-
casual influence of the Catholics at that time. The
Noble Lords say, that the Catholics do not care
about the indulgence which is sought, and yet the
Noble Viscount adds, that the result of the question,
if grant, would be to grant the state itself. Now,
I think, iiky Noble Friend has proved i rrefragably that
the Catholics, supposing their claims to be allowed,
could never arrive at any great influence in this House.
The argument was a plausible one, which urged
their probable ascendancy in the Parliament of Ire-
land; but the union has completely taken away all
foundation for it. At the time of the Union with
Scotland, the opposers of that measure foretold the
same consequences which are now insisted upon by
those who resist the Catholic Claims; but I do not
find that the event has justified their apprehensions.
Why, then, may not Irish Catholics condu3 them-
selves with the same safety to the Constitution, as
the Scotch Members ? We are asked, when we
grant this, how do we know what they with ask
next, and where their demands will step ? This
argument goes to all former concessions. If we are
not to grant anything, lest something more msy be
demanded, it would be better to shut the doors
against all Petitions. We are told that the Catho-
lics are not satisfied with the test. Ida not wonder
at it. It cannot be a very grateful thing to any
maa whom you admit into your house, to ask him
whether he be an honest man ? It is rather painful
to be called upon to take an oath, that you are not
traitors. It it were a general rule for all Members
to take the oath, no man would think any thing cf
it ; but to be singled out for the purpose, must be a
galling distinftion. Now, my Lords, I come to
the other objeetion, I mean the time. The Noble
Secretary says, it is art indiscreet time, but he has
not plained how, or in what manner. lie says
also. There is no hope of suneess; cwt I hope, that
the bete of this night will thew the. contrary. It is
not, I think, very respeafial to tell the Catholic,,
that there is a majority in this House against
any proposition for granting -them farther indul-
gence. One Minister's authority may, however,
he as good as that, of another ; and we do know,
that another Minister, as competent to speak upon
the subjeEl as the Noble &crew y, Suds surd, he ne-
ver would accept of place, unless the Catholic claims
were granted. But, it is said, we are at war. Ones
the Noble Secretary foiget, that the Minister at the
brad of His Majesty's Councils, at a more danger-
ous time, almost at the very eve of a battle, ran
away, because the claim of the Catholics was
not granted,?—The Noble Secretary of Stare
has assigned another reason, the prodigious
power and influence of France over the Catholic
conn. ries of Europe.—'Phis is an argument
which is likely to last as long as the present
ni,!ty.—l do not see, however, why this should
prevent us from placing the Kish Catholics no-
sier the influence of the Government. King kVil-
liam did not think so. Mere his Lordship read
a passage from Bishop Burnet, in which he states,
that the policy of France Was to alienate all Catho-
lic countries upon the Continent from England ) I
AM so far from agreeing with the Noble Secretary
of State, that I think that this is the time of all
others to shew the Catholics of Ireland that they
cannot expel from any catholic league or connec-
tion, the same extent of freedom and indulgence
which they enjoy here. If ever there was a time
when it was necessary to unite the hearts and hands
of all classes of His Majesty's subjetts. it is the pre-
sent ; and this is only to be done, by giving to all the
complete enjoyment of all the benefits of the Consti-
tution. If the laws respefting Catholics are not com-
plete, I believe in my heart, that they cannot stand as
they are. I think it impossible that three millions
of the people of Ireland should remain as they .are,
leaving one million to enjoy the full benefit of the
constitution from which they are excluded. The
history of all Countries thews, that it you cannot
secure the beans of the people, which is only to be
done by giving them full and complete enjoyment
of the country and its constitution, you must have
recourse to a coercive system. If the Catholics are
to be assured that they never must have that full
and complete enjoyment, you must have recourse
to that coercive system ; bat I am sure. in the pre-
sent state of Europe, you cannot wish to try the
temper and dispositions of the people of Ireland."
Earl CAMDEN considered the present discussion as very
unwise at this time.

The Bishop of DURHAM thought it highly essential that
the principle. of the Fstablithed Church should be Inviolably
premed: he prof sled himself no enemy to Toleration, but
s &I, that he had read the P:tition with the greatest attention,
and he could not :cc any security in any cone-rowans which
COU4I be made at present ; he wished the education of the
lower classes could be improved; but ho could not find any
thirg in the question that cuu:d promote social and domestic
happiness.
Lord REDESDALE said, as well as he could iinderstaml the
Petition, nothing short of equal participation, on equal terms.
was *might ; if the Citholics nit have this, thee mow Iwo
an equal pa•tici;;aton of the Constitution, both in Church and
State. Something further than this was rimestere to be done;
ti, $h Article tat Vona must be repealed, and the Roman
Catholic Religion assist become the Enablishod Religion ,f
insiand, and din skittles of iiniereo94 wool 4 sad lib thew win

.

object, a trLI separation of Pohlad fora E•rtlael. Ifs then
..ric a cwiriparatise er.•r at tire didornn.:eh worm the cliur-ites '
Sent-.ml and the R 'Mar, Catholic H.• cams❑!;•eel there wit
a most r•sentraf difference between the R :man Catholic Cergf
3114 Lade ; the farmer of whom had the trial in ewe -tete nub-
je..ll.,h, and, openly sundry g rat the fac, of the amintre, were
constantly known to declare that the receiser. of eeelesiast•cal
r 'venues were usurners (a try .1 Na! ! N., !). Ile saA, he
relieJted it, as be had it from good authority, they claimed the
tale of Ardtbi•hop of Armagh, and the priest, who was ap-
pointed to that situ-;in to their chinch. was instated with
all the ceremonie,, tromp. and tart. rieir aothmitr w:s
ref Creed by the mu•t dreadml punish...amt, ens-oatmeal
cation; and he awned the !loom ►oew a Plot...stout
gentler's in who steel an, unfortunate matt from st.tomil
in the strcels, who hart tee,, lbws ere to.outoclto•. lot
another instance a couple w-re married, aim a Roman
Cathre.re, the other a Protestant. They weuesenteec •d to ex-
communication, because they lint married ac:nolarez to
the ceremonies of the!.:lntrch of England, arid the iintrapdy
persons who were present at the wed ling acre cunderricei rot
do penance, which 'BA: a sort of piigrirmage; they had
to go a circuit of thirty iSli:t4. with labels on their back.,
to wilt holy wells, &c. dre. Sc. and this haap••ned fre-
quently. bri that the clergy of that monitty d.l now exert
more authority than in arty Roman Catholic. State ht Europ
there was no constraint 'lion their power ; they 'nude and
Woke mortars, and, in In city instances, the legitimacy of
children depended upon the priests. Tins power was re-
strained, in part, in the reign of Elizabeth ; trot i., the time of
Jailors, the ecclesiastical revenues remained in the hand, of the
Roman Catholic Clergy, until taken from them lay nth arm of
the Conqueror. They were a leafy who tyrannised "err the
community, and while tits Priests weee 411./W-I w moth power
over their Meek, there would be nu ;e ace in Imland. II a
Lordship then colaryed nn the sway of Uwe Roman Cathol.c
Rodin" and rel ate,' several anecdotes to elucidate his ..:-
genierit. tie stated :aim. where the bulrup bad prohibited
persons horn aUen Closer prayers, b-.•airs• they w re
read by hens that lb.: Roman Catholios of Carrel a
w.•re exceedingly sorry when a b:SII011 was sera amunri tnen
,tn. iiw Lordship then went into a caiculatimi of
Cie nii,oher of parishes, glebe-houses. and re•od'rn Cle.gy
in Ireland, whir.li he etnisidered very inadequate to the
country. The sppellsnona of Englishman aid Beware were
synualmoris terms among the RON,/ Cathuiics, and he
thought their real design was to Any s the Protestants out of
Iralaod. kor these reasons his Lordahip gave his decided ah •
position to the 'notion.
The Duke of NORFOLK rose; and Lord HA WRENS!!! Y
trigged to kiln., whether rt was tboseuse of the !loose, that t y
should then aihourn, and meet again at an early name this al-y
(a loud cry of No ! N..! Go on ! Gn on!). After some con-
versation between the LORI) CHANCELLOR, the Duke of
NORFOLK. Earl DARNLEY, Lurd ISAWR 'snug Y. or&
the Earl of DERBY. Vie d,bate eta rteumeJ,

The Ear! of LIMERICK cdoke aping the Mo•ion, making
several refermeee to Cie ..Y.ltion to IreLi,A, wh:ch, ht r~idr
'hewed cleady the ,liv.e,tion of the C3thniiet
Tic Earl of C.IRYSFOR aino,int of the leeway of
tn• hour, moved, that the debate 1...0t:4 be allourotel, but
would lesveit to the lfuw.to fix the tine.

"(h. Margolis u( BUCICING9AI4; the Earl of DAR N
ant Lord UREMVILLE, imparred tftem.e: vet io larvarut toa
dolj mein.

Earl of DARNLEY mentioned Mood4y, and Lori
IIAWKEsBURY aid tit.% olisa.
A 'loomed at THREE O'CLOCK lootilMoaday.

HOUSE OF COMktONS.
S;r JOHN ANDERSON broueat up the Resort of the
1.0.40 a Dock Set, which woe ordered .o be raftr,ot to a Coal.
maze of the whole HOWC on Monday used.
POYNTZ preowned a I' fgt.., /row the Borosigh-of
St. Venn's, magmata:awry of the pruceed.ries of the Tenet
Report of the Commesioners of Naval begun . Ordered to
lie on the table. •
The Muse received the Report of the Igfett tint fruit, Bil!,
which was endured to bit read* third time on Miloilay.
A Me•yrarz from the Lords atato that they had speed to
the Leith Harbour, and w.ersl privet Bilk.
The Irish s mall Note Mill was elfin isittesd. Rep es se be
taken seas darria.4....retinn oh this day &rotten, and tLs A.lt t .
be print-id.
The I u 1 Sum, Ditty MI was ran a first time, to be read
a second tO.- ,I•vr
THE LATE SHERIFFS r'E LOVntaN.
Sir F. FANE moved the Order of the Div. for
calling in Robert Albion Cox, Esq. and Sir W•lsians
Raultr.s, tint. late Sheriffs of the City of La.don,
for the purpose or their being reprimanded and dis-
charged. The SLeritTs being accordingly called in
were now reprimanded by the Speaker nearly in the
following manner:
^ R. A Cox and Sir Wm. RAWiiII4, coat constrict brains
lindeggetne the just. but s-very. semen., of 'hi, HJoye, wh,ch
anowfigneel you to an ipso k.ua impriuminent, it tr. right
that you, and all other men throireh woo, ,houl4 tridevstantl
the nature and caaia,iter of our offence, the sum sf which In
this-..that fu. the wirprrie of Ruing one of the stid.4lltet in the
Middlesex Election a ,olotrable rnaiority 1.p.... theiroll, you
kilo"litalf, and corruptly admitted the etseeptmo of
rictitious vote., thereby elicottraging person. to commit per.
jury ; and that, in purmsnce of the same latent, min reft'seerf
examine their casitiorfracy by the beaks of the laird tax. A
h Eller offmce than this could flat 'et coin mitted,and in ...c.0.-
dueling yourselves :too betrayed the most important dot'', of
your high office, tar wh.-11 you were committed to Newirat.,,
the common receptacle of ma'elaci•oy, and over which von
b.rfurc prratfer as the ptcreer Magistrates, to your own Lictelihßo
.l.rrace, aid for the example of all omen. In eaiovvenea.
however, of your long imprionseient, arid your tNinVoSiell of
humble contrition, you are now discharged, on payment of
your fee,"
The Sheriffs having then withdrawn ;
Lord MARSHAM moved that the reprimand of
the Speaker be entered on the Records, which was
agreed to.
On the Motion of the SECR ETA RY at WAR.
the House then proceeded to ballot for the Seleft
Committee to consider of the conduA of Sir Horne
Popham, in the Red Sea, when the names of the
whole Housej being read over twice by rive of the
Cie: ks, such Members as were preterit and Lhreight
proper to do so, delivered in their lists of 121 Mem-
bers each, and a Committee, consisting of Menses.
S. Boerne, Baldwin, Al-under, Bagnal, Broderick;
Sir J. Frederick, Sir Robert Buxton, Sir J. W, .
Jerson, Sir James Douglas, kc. appoinuei to ex.
amine the lists, and report such names as had the
majority.
CHARGES AGAINST EARL T. VINCENT
Mr. JEFFERY said, that he rose in pursuance
of his Motion on Wednesday last, to move for se-
veral papers and accounts eel tive to the Admini-
stration of the Naval Department under Earl Sr.
Vin.ent. He hoped that those who before wished
for time to consider of the nature of the pipers,
would he now prepared to admit them ; and at he
made oo doubt hut that the papers, now before
the House, would bear him out in hit assertions, he
should not trouble the House with any observations
till he heard what ogle pons could possibly be made
to them. The documents were very numerous,
and he should begin by moving,
That there be laid before the !lOUS* an beton nt of the Line
of Bride ships, together with their revettror rates: ea also of
the frigates and their ranee, launched from the Ist of .16,1.11,'Yr
17011, to tha 1.4 of September 1104, d.atiageniaing those hunt
Merchants Yards end from Hui Mtesty's Deck Yards.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said he had no objedien to the Motion now offered ;
but as those which were to follow were very volomi.
nous, lie wished to have it understood, diet he must
oppose the produAion of any papers rending to
thew the state and erudition of the she, s in 1504, as ,
it sight aaor4 improper iMormaiivia to am *snug.

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