The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1807-01-24 00:00:00

INPEKIAL PARLI.:MtNr.

HOWSE Of /Ai J 411. to
The Solieitur-General was Ist vei in hehaW of the
App,-llaets, in she Appeal Cams tram the Court ot
Exchequer, Sir Weskits Lewes and Daughter v.
Joh, Morgan, formerly the Appellant's Solicitor,
and fah's,. I = further consideration was appoint-
ed for M• day next.
'lle Marquis of Ely, Earls Poulett and Roeslyn,
Bishop ot St David's, Lords Kenyon and Kinnaird,
to..k the oaths and their seats.

The Duke of Clarence presented five Petitions
agaiti.t thite: holition of the Slave Trade, one from
the WestfAdia Merchants in general, three from
Liverpool, and one from John Puget Lyon, Esti
Agent for the Island of Jamaica.—Ordered to lie
on the Table.
The Annual Indemnity Bill went through a Com-
:asittee, and was reported.
Aetioareed until tomOrrow.
HOUSE or COMMONS.

In consequence of there not being a sulkiest
number of Members to constitute a House, yaw-
tiny, the ba'lot for a Committee on the weyessith
Eleaion Pairion took place this day, and the bk.
lowing names were returned
Freenantle, Eq. Sir Edward Knatehboll.
Charles a, Eq. Sir William Milner.
Tit r, fs.ll. Sir Juliet Frederick.
Juba Ostwme, Fag. Anthony Brown Ewt.
Sir W. W. Wynne. Richard Vyse,
Geerrea Porto' Eq.Wirt Baker, Esq.
Sir ihronasi Lirkl.ll. Sir Juan Atutrather.
Sir George entity/all.
Mr. 'WHITBREAD rose and stated, that hiv-
ing before intimated to the House, his intention of
submitting :o their consideration several improve-
ments relative to the existino; Parr Laws, he would.
on Tlmrsday, the l'2l of F tummy, move tot leave
to bring in a Bill to amend the same. He had, in
consequence of the importance of the changes be
wished to plopsigigiven his notice at a much ear.
tier date than tMI, itt order that the Mera
might be pr 'pared with every aro,ument fn the
present system, wh;eli he. nevertheless, hoped he
would be able to answer to their complete satia'ac
Lion ; ar.d on the same principle he sh .old only
move, " That the Bill b.: real a first time and
printed, and then lie on the Table, until after the
Easrer recess."

The LORI) ADVOCATE of SCOI LAND, af-
ter a few preliminary observations, moved tar leave
to bring in a B,SI for suspending, far A I.mited time,
tie Ad of the Foist Session of Parliament, in the
reign of Queen Anne, ranting certain powers to
the Lard. ot the Council of Scotland, relative to
the increase of the Stipends of toe Scottish Clergy.
On the *wino of Mr. PAIINELL..the Grain In-
terc curse Bill was ordered to be read a second time
on Monday next.
The Comm trees on the Irish Customs Bill, and
Irish Eledlion Bill, were postponed until Monday
neat.

The SOLICI FOR.GE?IF.RAL gave notice,
that he would, on a future day, move for leave to
bring in a Bill, making the Freehold Estates of
persons, who diedin debt, assets for the payment of
simple contraa debts
Lord ARCH' BALD HAMILTON gave no-
tice, that he would, on Monday se'nniFht, move some
specific Resolutions, relative to the 1 bird Report of
the Commissi )ners of Military Inquiry.
Mr.VANSITTAR l' moved, "Thar an account of
all interest paid on Exchequer E.lls ending the sth
of Jauuary. 1807, be laid before the House, distin-
guishing the account of each year, with an average
thereof."
Mr C. W.WI LIAM'S WYNNE brought up the
Thames Police Bill, which was read a first time,
and ordered to be printed. Ile then observed,
that in consequence of his intention of inserting
some clauses. *hien he trusted veiuld meet the ap•
prcbation of the House, he would move for the
second reading on Wednesday.
The Report upon the laisb Militia Service Bill
was brought up, the si?ve.al R solutions were read
and agreed to, and the Bill otd!red to be engrossed,
and read a third time on Monday next.
Viscount C A STLERE AGH wi ;bed to know, wise-
ther the principle adopted with respell to the regu-
lar army. in the increase of Officers pay. was in-
tended to be extended to the correfponding rank of
Officers in the Militia ?

The SECRE TARY at WAR replied, that no
such provi.ion had been made, nor was intended to
he made.
Viscount CAS ri.F.REAc H hoped, that it was
not yet too late for Ministers to take into considera-
tion, and carry into elFeCt, this very important and
necessary measure. Una former occasion, Minis-
ters had thought an inci ease of pay necessary for one
description of Officers, viz. Lnsigns. Pot he could
no: see at present any reasonable objeftion to carry
the principle into full effee, at least to increase, in
the same proportion, the pay of the several corre-
sponding ranks, from the Ensign to the Lieutenant.
Colonel, inclusive.
Mr. C. WILLIAMS WYNNE trusted, that the
Motion he was about to submit to the I louse, would
meet with their approbation and support, when he
informed them, that the Motion in question was
inteuded to relieve the miseries of a part of the
community, perhaps the most unfortunate, and as-
suredly the least able to exuicate itself from the
calamitous situation, t n which a total privation of
reason had reduced it The part of the community
he alluded to, was the crimi ,a 1 lonAtks, an un-
happy body of men, who had escaped capital pu-
nishments for of eeces to which it had appeared to
their Judges they bad been instigated, not from
motives of ntslice, bot fulm a malady of so me-
lAnchAy and deplorable a were, as rather to ren-
der them ohieCts of general commiseration, than fit
sohjefts of punt,hment. The laws at present in.
farce had permitted the Judges, iu cases of con-

Wait) of Its c to rem -.4 he prisoner ,* pi a
lest h shotild again consmi aCI of or I. oce rn '
f. II 4, come is I wix salutary, o.th
respect to the etarnmunity, ycr norlAng could be
more ilia:tic:ons sespea to the nnhappy luns.
tic. What place could he MO' e unfit than s prison
for the confinement of the unhappy suffo r? Could
it be supposed, that in a gaol, the unfortuoiee man
could either obtain ,the necessaries requisite tot kis
situation, or the treatment calculated to restore hiin
to his lust reason. No Sir, nothing could be more
improper than to command him to prison. Ne.
thing more impolitic than thus to throw the ezpenco
of their maintenance on the public. He would
leave it to the consideration of a Committee to de-
termine, %Meth: r they should be maintalced at the
expellee of the different porishes to which they be-
longed, or is any other manner they should think
fit ; and whether they would wash* think it pre.
per, that such u seemed to. WWI* seesweeed
nun alareld-mot gets be
con
with moving, "t
hat t a
be appointed to consider the state of the crirnir
and oau,rer lunatics throughout England and Wales II
and that the account of the number of lungties con-
fined in the different workhouses, now presented br
Mr Wynne, should be referred to the said Co'S
mittee "
Mr. S. BOURNE objected to confining the Como
mines to the consideration of lunatics in England
and Wales only, and wished it to be extended to
the whole of the retired Kingdom
Mr. WYNNE answ .red, that it was n t neces-
sary to extend the consolers-ie. of the c' ,e of cri-
minal and p.t.pet lunatics to Ir •land or Scotland,
a. in neither of those oars of the emp;re were there
any poor rates es iblished 'or lunatics of e•th-r de-
aurnation.— The Ante u was put ir'rl agreel to.
JOHN I:F.Nrom CreWTHolit 4E.
General rola Sr, in pursuance of the
novice whieh I i•Jrrnelly save, I now rise LI
in, "ny non:Jed in nu sto• he H.-us: ; and in
doing so, I must c00t..., tlvet I feel consiieroblo
embarrassed is regal to the moat proper no 4• of
procedure. lam ore that the House will aoloit
me of any anine,eta towards the person who is the
objet of it. 1 profess myself pestealy unconscious
of entertaisung any animostty against that loth.
vinnal; bin I am called 9" by an imncri als
sense of duty. as a Mem'ser of this H. use t*
maintain its c'naraiter and r opedairility, as w•J
as to sap,,ort the honour of that protessors
whi:n I am attached. Having said thus mord s
it may not appear surprising, that 1 shulcd
take up this question, and aa with the strittest
impartiality in the case of a gentleman, woe's
having been trNd by a Court Martial, composed of
sixteen respeCtable Officers of the Army, and after
having been found giy#o of dozen ehagps one ff
fourteen, and having natured the severest senteoai,
I do not conceive that it is necessary for me to state
any thing further as an apology for my cnndua in
bringing forward the Motion, which I mean now
to submit to the House. The first ohjia which I
wish to accomplish is, to propose the adoption of
some means by which the House may be enabled to
become fully possessed of the case to which I allude;
and after that has taken place, I shall put it to their
own feelings and good sense, whether or not it be
proper that a petson should remain in a situation
amongst us, which, in a former Parliament, he was
declosed incapable of holding? It is unnecessasy for
me, previous to the aec, mplishment of my arse °bled,
to enter much at large upon the sulij.a. It is al-
ready in the recollection of many, and when this
first Motion is agreed to, it will come under
the notice of all. When the information which
1 am now to move for has been laid be-
fore, and fully considered by, the House, I
shall more fully state my sentiments, and follow up
this previous step with some further procedure. I
shall not, therefore, trouble the House further at
present, than by moving—o That the charges ma.**
against John Fenton Cawthorne, E.q a Member of
this House. and the sentence pronounced against
him, in consequence of the decision of a GoorAl
Court Martial, and the peon ed.ngs had therena, is
the years 1795 and 1:96, be laid before t::e House.'
This Motiin was seconded by Mr. SPENCER
STANIIOPS ; °nits being put trom the . heir,
Mr. J.#. IN FEhtl'ON CAW 1-HORNE roses
and, addroving the Sp-esker, sai.l -0 I do not know,
Sir, whether I he rigotly in order in rising to esinc a
my untonerits upon this occasion, but I wie,. that
the Hon. Gen:l:mon who has lost now siihmituld
this Motion to the ;Jolts', would oroduct some pre-
ced -tits on which to ground nix procedure, or at
least state more tally the ci cumstar.ces ernich have
induced hint tc do so, in otter toot it may be rm.
feta y understood by the Hon e. Ido not, in stating
these as my sentiments, mean that the House shoo{]
let the :natty rest for a single moment longer than
what may use absolutely necessary for adopting flit.
most eligthl line of cendua; nor do 1 suggest them
from a,,y tenderness of feeling towards initelf—
I le.t my argument, that he ought to proceed upon
the ground of precedents, upon this. thot it is con-
sisteot. with rite law of toe land and jurisortiderwe
of this country, that no man who has been sscqu tied
or coudemited by the sentence of a Court, can Es
tried nr punished again by tile same jud.cature.—
This principle, I think it will r.ot be denied, has
been found to #e sn salutary, that no man will date
to hiring, it. It is the established law of the land,
and the gteaten benefits hove been derived from it.
But, Sir, there is another reason, and one which, I
am convinced, will weigh considerably upon this
House, which I may urge for the adoption of the
most regular and proper line of procedure upon this
occasion; I conceive. that a per son is legally qua.
lifted to he a Representative in Parliament, when he is
returned by a large body of Eleaors, without any op-
position. If I was net qualified to sit :,ere, when so
called, 1 ceitaiitly think that the time has passed in
which any opposition could have been made. It is cer-
tainly in •st irregular, and inconsistent with lel re-
sidentss to hear pet sons come forward at this ono

Unit of time, to state of *Rion, against the return
of a Member who has beset eleited the representa-
kir. of one of the largest county towns in this king.
dem, without any opposition whatever. Under these
circumstances, I shall certainly never shrink from
that inquiry into the sentence of the Court Martial,
If there be found any precedent to justify such an
investigation at this distaste of time. All the in-
fiances Which Fhave read or heard of, justify the
proposition which I have laid down in regard to the
established law of the land. Several of them must
be in the remembrance of most Gentlemen here.
• We have a precedent in the case of Mr. Wilkes ;
in 1711, the case of Mr. Walpole ; and in 1698,
we have several other cases, which tend to show the
impropriety of the present motion. The Hon.
Mover insinuates that he means nothing personal
towards me, that he entertains no animosity I
therefore take it very kind in him the bringing for-
ward of this measure. I will not state what I for-
merly stated, as I am now in a very different situ-
ation. I was then certainly both more impressed
and oppressed; yet if I had known what I know now,
I should not have then taken up the time of the
House in making such a defence as I did. Had I
known the opinion of a great Lew Officer, high in
authority, to be, that he thought the decision of a
Court Martial too flimsy for the House of Com-
mons to form a judgment upon, I should certainly
not have troubled the House so much upon the
former occasion."
Lord HOWICK—" Sir, not having been con-
*Pious, that there would be any opposition to the
present Motion, I did not conceive that it would be
necessary for me to speak upon the subjeß thereof,
upon the present occasion ; but what has fallen
from the Member opposite, who has just now
delivered his sentiments, occasions me to state, that
I think he has fallen into some mistake as to the na-
ture of our proceedings. It is not the intention of
my Hon. Friend, who has made this Motion, to try
tie ca,e again ; he merely means to ascertain, by
the judgment of this House, whether a person la-
bouring under the stigma of such a sentee.ce, pro-
' neunced by a Court Martial, be a fit person to sit at
a Member amongst us I whether or not the House
' has the power to exp. I him? and if it has such a
rower, whether or not that power should be exerted
in the present instance? Such, Sir, is the state
of the question at pr-sent before us ; and I con-
ceive it to be one of the utmost importance, both as
affeeting the character of the individual against
whom it applies, the eharafter of the House of Com-
Nam s, and also as it afTeCts the principles which
Ttavern the rights of the Electors of this Kingdom.
here can be no question more deserving of the
most adive attention ; and it is, indeed, a great
satisfadion to observe, that, u;.on one of such a
nature, involving considerations of the importance
I have described, there does not appear to relit any
mixture of passion or party spirit, as might be snp-
posed likely to arise on such an occasion. My Hon.
Friend who has made this motion, has evinced,
as I indeed expelled, from a knowledge of his cha-
racter, the greatest temper, calmness, and pro-
priety of conduct. He has not sifted like a person
inclined to oppress, bin as one who entertains a
conscientious regard of ss hat he conceives to be the
interest of the public, and the honour of the House.
His ext:nple, I hope, will be followed throughout
ghe remainder of this discussion, in order to form
our decision upon such grounds as will be coosist-
ent with all the interests involved in it. With that
view, I shall so far agree with the sentiments of the
last speaker, as to Idlow up the present motion
with aionlier, for the r.urpose of ascertaining what
precedents can be found upon our Journals,
ither similar or analogous to the present case,
in order to instruct us in our judgment upon
the sublet. It was my intention, I say, not
to have spoken upon this motion, Ear to have
interposed another one for the appointment of
a Co.nmittee to search the Journals for such
precede is as might he found to apply to the pre-
sent case. lam not, however, aware Sir, of any
being to be found exactly similar ; but I arts sure
that there are many ansligous to it, even widen
the reenlicllion of the House. It must, sursly, be
the wish of the House to proceed to the examined m
of this question, with our minds as well informed
upon the subjen as possible, from our Jonrnals...—
This proposal appears 'o reasonable, that I am not '
aware of its being necessary to urge any thing fur-
ther to show the propriety (3: it, No obit:A:on. can
be stated to it, even by the individual most mateti•
ply interested, that it should be condated upon
ciinsti:utional principles. Some delay may, by
tw.de, he occasioned, but it will be very
rooo..o.eralsie ; but should it lead to come-
qiiences disaareeable to the individual most into.
rested, he rnii,t recoiled that he had only himself
to blame, Cate le led himself into that situ aeon in
which his conduft must again become the subjed of
public diseussim. However much the consider-
ations of inconvenience may intervene, we must not
extend them so fer as to prevent our takeeg such
steps as may appear most consistent ith the regu-
larity of our proceedings; and, therefore, after this
motion has been agreed to, / shalt submit a merlon
to the purport I have stated, as being one of the
best fitted to the general interests of the House and
the. Country."
Mr. SPENCER STANHOPE said, that he
had seconded the motion of his Hun. Friend with
the intention of following it up with one similar to
that now suggested by the Noble Lord. Whether
they should find precedents or not, he thought it was
proper to adopt that course, although merely pre
fo-tan, it being the mast regular and consistent
mode of proceeding to express their opinion upon
the subject.
Mr. HERBERT:—" Sir, I do not conceive
that this can be a question which can at all rest
upon precedent. 'file only questions herr, ee,
whether t! e I louse can, in any use, have a pi iniery
right of expulsion ; and, if it has that right, whe-
ther it cin also have the right of re-expulsi:ln It it
be eitehli.hed that this House has both of t!..3e
right;, then the fir xt question is one of prop. i,:y ;
or, whether there be a case before the 'louse which
affords to irs sufficient grounds to justify our excl.- '
citing tl at .liscretiooary power. I do not, by any
means, think that the right of re-expulsion is a
moon which can be determined by, or depend
upon, pre. edent ; and as to expulsion, I do not think
that any t; ettentan will venture to deny our right
It is ;Jr I conceive to stand admitted, 0.1%d I

,

wfr7

. . . .
therefore imagine, that the other trust follow of
course. The question immediately brf ire the House
for discussion, is nut, therefore, a question of pre-
4etient, but of principle. The right of expulsion,
I say, eisists in thitt Home, for the proreltion of its
honour, safety, respettability, and dign;ty. I know
that some individuals its this Heuse are determined
to argue, that :question of this nature does not fall
to be discussed here; but that it depends entirely
upon the Right of Eleaors ; or that the re-elettion
of a Members after the original expulsion, has given
aim an opportunity of readying Lis incapacity, and
fitting him to sit in the House cf Commons. I do
not, howevee, conceive that such a sight can be
vested in Eleaers ; they have no right to enforce
what the House of Commons has formerly disap-
proved of. It is peifeelly ridiculous to say, that
there can be sent back to Parliament a person whom
they have formerly declared to society, and to the
world, to be totally unfit to• sit in i:. I too am
anxious that aucla a delicate question shoula be
argued with the utmost calmness and lenity towards
the individual so implicated. Upon the ground of
its being a question which ought to be argued upon
principle, I shall not resist the 'tuition which has
been made "
General GASCOYNE—" Sir, in tang to deli-
' ver my sentiments upon this subjeift, I declare that
I have as little personal motives as the Honourable
Gentleman who made the motion, or the Noble
Lord who succeeded him. After what I have
heard fall from that Noble land (Howick), the
searching for precedents, would, I think, only tend
Ito unnecessary delay. That Noble Lord has told
us, that lie. does not believe there is any prece-
dent exa&ly similar; if is, where is the necessity
j of seeking for information, where none is to be
I found ? If any precedent be wanted to regulate
' our proceedings, have we not a precedent in the
case of Cawthorne being expelled from this I louse,
in the year I '79:_i ? Have we not, Sir, this precedent,
that this self-same individual was exts:lled from
amongst us, for ungentlemanlike and highly re-
prehensible crindat ? Yes, Sir, this I conceive to he
a precedent, than which, we could not possibly
desire any one more similar. I am sorry,
Sir. to say any thing that may hurt or would
the feelings of any mate;; but when we find 1
that the individual alluded to, persists in sitting
here, as a Member nt this House, I think that he
himiwif is the original cause of it. If. Sir, there
was aelually no preeedeut, would this House, I
would ask, upon this occasion, make one so int-A-
mong, as to pass over such a subje& in silence?—
No, Sir, I trust, if we are to snake a precedent, we
shall make it for the punishmeist of miscondudt, and
not such a ore as will tend to cover it. It is ler
the glory of the British Nation; it is for the bon :ur
of our Senate and our military establisiiment, that
even where there is no case diteSly in point, effec•
foal measures may be adopted to prevent the recal-
-1 rence of future evils. If the Nola'w Led, by his
I intended motion. means inly to crest? dr,ay, I can-
not see that it will answer any purpose; bur it may
be thence presumed, that it was meant to throw the
broad shield of power over the so'-jeer in qiiestion,
in order to silence it ; and fur that reason, I should
rather wish that the Noble Lord ensuld see toe pro-
priety of withdrawing his intended motioe "
Lord FOLKS l'ONF.—"'Flie two Hon Gentle-
men who haSe spoken last, seem tolnive mistaken
the real queitien At present before tlie House; the
only matter before us is, Whether the proceedings
of the Court Martial in 1;96 should be laid before
them. Since, however, the suisjea of precedents
has been touched upon, 1 must observe, ht answer
to some observations which have just fallen from
the lion. Gentleman who spoke last, that it is ex-
ceedingly material that a watch 'hyoid be made ;
for granting that no precedent i.; to be found, would
it not be a strong argument for resisting any sub-
sequent procedure which may be yet proposed up-
on the ease now before as? With that view I shall
support the proposition of the Noble Lois'. I can-
not, however, agree with the expression which was
wed by that Noble Lend and the Hon. Gentleman
behind me, as to the individual implicated having
himself only to thank for the disagreeable feeliogs
which this discussion may give rue tic I think it
is rather uncanclid to say so, or that it is a reproach
to him that he Las put himself again into this situa-
tion, when be is confident he has a right to sit in
Parliament by the suffrages of his Constituents. It
is indeed a matter of regret, that the business has
already been delayed s's long after the riveting of
Parliament, but I think no greet additional delay
will originate from the mode of prucedute which
has been sufeested."
The Al FORNEY•GENER A L—" Had not
the motion now under consideration been to be ac-
companied with the o:w which the Noble Lori& has
prcposed, I, for one, aru perfectly disposed to state,
that I would have given it my decided negative,
undismayed by any menaces which have been held
out, as to our ditty to the public, the law of the
land, the honour of the Constitution, the rights of
Eleelors, and the dignity of the llou-re of Com-
mons. The reason for such a negative w.suld be,
because I am at It I'M to conceive that any minims
to be laid before the Heuse can be made the ground
of any proceeding to implicate any person eleded
for this Pailiament. I should be dispi:se.l to be
extremely guarded against any prnduftion of this
sort, or of adopting any measures that were not to
be regulated by law and precedent; or in which I
was not to be left at liberty to consult my own feel-
ings in regard to the situation of any individual
Member whose conduit was to be the subjed of dis-
cussion before the House. Ish ;old, least of all, be
disposed to do so upon the sentence of a Court
Martial laid upon the table ; not that I have any dis-
respett for such a Court, believing it to be the best,
as constituted by law, fur the trial of off ewes put cly
military ; but to ask me, without basing any pre-
cedent, to put a man upon his ti ial before those
who are neither jut>, nor judges, and to iaflia
a punishment or penalty, a power which was
never attached to any Court of common law,
is what I never 0111 consent to ( 4 cry of
Hear Aids I Mar Aim !). 1 should think the mo-
tints, without the appendage, quite inadequate.
—1 have troubled the house thus early upon
the sukied, principally on acennut of what has
fallen tram two Honourable Gentlemen opposi.r.
The Noble Lord near me I Lord Howick) has been
can:ioned not to throw the broad shield of pilwer
over that MesuStr, ..41.vse coudua is auw under


I consideration ; upon this, I have to observe to the
Hon. General, that the Noble Lord throws out no
• shield of prole lion, but the shi.ild of the Conititu-
non, as he has always done over every Member, /
and. I trust, he will yet do, and even extend its pm-
teetion over that Hon Member who has made such
an observation. Another Hon. Member has allud-
ed to die terms, honour and dishonour, expressions
which may be known in a Military Court, but can-
not he known in any other Court of Justice ; and,
therefore, he must know, that the House cannot
proceed upon such phrases, nor can there be any
thing in them, which can so afreCt public feeling, as
to discourage Lie:'tors, possessing sound sense and
reason, from exercising their eltaive franchises, in
choosing a Representative, whom they think a true
friend to the Constitution of their country."
Mr. BRAGGE BATHURST—', I should not
have deemed it necessary to have said any thing
upon this occasion, had it not been owing to what
has fallen from my Learned Fliers,' on this Bench,
in regard to the proceedings of a Court Martial, or
the evidence taken before them, being not a proper
ground for the House exercising thier privilege of
expelling a Member; n 3 such opinion was ever
before maintained in this House. It does not ap-
pear to me that such a queston as the present one'
ought to be entirely disentangled from all legal
niceties. If the House be satisfied, by evidence
upon oath, that there is such a body of criminality
proved to exist, as to justify their procedure, they
ought not to hesitate a moment in the ex:elion of
their privilege. When the Learned Gentleman
talks of a Xlilitary Court, he ought to distinguish at
the same time what he denominates purely military
questions. This Court Martial had not to investigate a
crime merely of a military nature, thire was a charge
of more tut pituJe than mere military delinquency.
Ile matter at issue, ie. the present instance, was
not entirely a question of military honour, upon
which Parliament had tormeily decided. There
was such a eurpus alatai, as fully justified them in
the measure they formerly ad-pted It would be a
m'nnrous pn.t,nsiuon t‘. s..y, •‘ t..ke this before a 1
jary ;" a thing that can lot he done, it having been
a question already tried. The competency of
jurisdiftion etnnot be brought forward, nor can
any (Air:lion be stated as to the evidence which
took pl ice formerly, and upon which a former Par.
liament decided. If it be fit to exercise that right,
which Parliament exercised before, there can be no
ilifblulty in rec wring to that same evidence which
is recorded upon our Journals. I: it was not bad at
that time to proceed upon, it is not bad now. It is
not necessary, Sir, that we should he bound by pro•
cedents, nor to say, that to re-exael depends upon'
the circumstances atemding the previous expulsion.
Such a question as the present one is never to be
decided merely upon the principle of adhering to
what had been previously done."
Mr. HERBERT, in explanation, said- " This
is a question which must rest upon its individual
merits It is not one which can be regulated by
precedent. I apprehend, that the Right Hum.
and Learned Gentleman was wrong, when he
inferred, that the House has not a right to challenge
the proceedings of a Court Martial. Unless it can
be alleged, that the former proceeding of the House
upon this subjeft Was s.h flagrantly unjust, V.at it
ought to be expunged, there can be no occasion for
appointing a Cominitiee upon the buerness."-
General GASCOVNE, in explanation, said, that
he nev. r meant to inter, that it was aftually the inten-
tion of the Noble Lord opposlie, to proteCt a cul-
prit with the broad Shield of Government, he had
only observed, that his conduCt might be so con-
strued by implication.

Lord WILLIAM RUSSELL delivered his sen-
timents; but in such a low tone of voice, as to be
pettedly inaudible to the Gallery.
Mr. BR.V.*GE BATHURS and the AT FOR-
NEY•GENERAL severally explained; and M.
ROBERT WARD said a few wo:ds.
Mr. All M--“ Sir, I conceive that the motion,
as first ni.sle, was perlealy regular. temperate, and
constitutional; hut the debate which has ensued, has
not been condo:led• with the same propriety ; and,
therefore, I am anxious that the Hoist should he
biouyht to that state 'in which it originally Corn.
menced. The only ohj•rd at present is, what is
that line of conduct whiel will be most consistent
with justice. equity. And certainty t It is said, by
some, UP be a question of principle, and not a ques-
ti ,n of precedent. lem not sensible, Sir, of any
di,tindi,m. In a Colin, constituted as this is, it ap-
pears to me that principle can only be understood
by having recourse to precedent. There can-
not, therefore, be any reasonable Ojedion to
search into precedents ; because, although I may
have an opinion upon the subjed, it is not
to be fixed, but merely to be guided by such in-
quiry. We have, Sir, the precedent of Wilkes, in
the year 1764. for the publication of Tile Norti Bri-
-147; and in 1779, for a libel, of which he was con-
viaed in a court of justice. lam old enough to
remember the debate* which took place upon those
occasions; and I was one of the minority, when the
question was moved every year, in the then
mane. Certai.4 moles:sons were thee expunged by
the subsequent decisions of this House, as not
being consistent with the sound letter of the law of
Parliament upon that subject. I think that what
the Noble Lord has proposed is perledly consistent
with the law of justice."
Mr. HURS I am much astonished, Sir,
when I bear an Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man say, that he perceives no distindion between
principle and precedent. In my opinion, Sir, I
thick them as diffetent from each other, as the
Southern and the Notthern Poles. Precedent ought
by no means to constitute principle. I have no ob.
jedirelso agree to the Motion of the Noble Lord,
as I slunk it is necessary that Parliament should see
what has been done upon a former occasion ; but
if no precedent is to be found, will it be said by the
Learned Gentleman who spoke last, that we are
not then to resort to principle We must then,
adopt that which will be a precedent in future.
I merely ro,e to express my astoni?hment at the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman not being
compe:ent to make that distiodion."
The Motion was then put horn the Chair, and
agreed tn.
Viscount HOWICK next rose, and in conformity
with the sentiments he had previously uttered upon
this sullied, m peed, "That there be a Committee
appointed to ezatuitie the Journals or Records of

which MI
Housed
s.m.

;Ouse, and

in view,

appeared in hi
errninarinn d",
prefetAbie MeV
ue uut
but

aft~rw~~,~

iguishing ctliei,
a question where the particular privileges if
House were interested, and where the prieileyei
the people were constitutionally involved, it b-c4m
a duty to obtain the fullest and must complit,
formation that it was in the nature of the eve t
admit. A great stress had been laid by a larahle
Gentleman, on the preference of precittlei-,
principle, in order to arrive at the most corner e:
cition in th;s inquiry. Tu that opinion he
not willingly subscribe, convinced as he w.s.
the combination of both was most likely to pio,:c•
the fullest and best tegillated judgment.
Lord I. 01, S I ONE thought the Metion s!e
not only extend to the precedents of expukina,
the return of expelled Members, but that the ('
nuttier should be instruacd to search for precede:.
in cases of re-ezpulsion, if any buds had ever hc..ti
red.
Lord HOWICK cnincidel with the opinion
the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Wakes( unix*
too narrowed construdion a the Motion lie IWO,
honour to pr pose. He therefore had no objeatoo
adopt the principle of the I fonourable Gentlemo,
and conceived that ohjt.6t answered, by inseniti
the words, Such Meurlsers as were expelled, 284
for %hat causes ; also such Members as we el*
pellet', and again returned, and to report the pia
ceedings thereon to the House" With tesp4t col
what had fallen from the Noble Lord (Follcsrufiql
that objet would be elucidated by the procrediqi,
which. in former cares, the House had adopted le
the return of any expelled Member. The hitot;e4
so amended was put and carried without a thanks
It was then resolved, that the following Memhets
compose the Committee,

Lords How iek, Heury Petty, Castlere3gh, F.4kstone, sod
train Gower; Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Perceval, Mr. Gilt-, I
Plainer, the Attur.ity and Snliettor Gener.,l, Mr. Fawkes,!
Sharpe, ke. he. and t hve constitute a Quortllll.

Lord GEORGECA VENDISH—" Mr. Spezia,
I hold in nay hand a Petition from certain LltZion
of the town of Lancaster: It has been given to ne
for the purpose of presenting it to this House silks
1 came in this evening. With its nature I von,
until within these few minutes, totally unacquainted,
and when' acquaint the flouce, that 1 had the boomx
of being a member of that Court-martial which sat
in judgment on the condo& of the Gentlemen ire-
mediat. ly implicated, it will be naturally stnpased,
'hat I am alltilleFlCed by no improper bias. The
House will consider the Petition itselt, whether itil
presented at the proper time. and whether it is
couched in the terms consistent with the honour sail
dignity of the Assembly to which it is addressee.
As far as I understand the object of its pisytr.t
is, that, whatever I•ne of jaroc.:Jure the House mar
think priper to adenr, the Petitioners humbly hope
their eledive franchise will not be negleded."
The pe.ition being read by the el rk, and it having
submitted to the House thoopinion at the Petition-
ers, that the House emeld not, without a violatia
of their tights, disqualify Colonel Cawthorn,
Mr. HERBER rose to cleave his surrrise
how such a petition could be received. In fact, di
paper presented to the House, could not be called I
petition; it was more in the shape of a dictatorial
summons. The patties who have siened it, avow
their knowledge of the fads which had occurred;
they never attempt to deny them; with an admitted
knowledge of the intamaus crime of whids the
perse n whom they have chosen has been convidts;
with the knowledge that he was rendered incapable
of ever serving His Mal-sty in any military cap
city; and that horn the na•ui• of his clime, br
was deemed totally unwortl:y of any trust stint.
ever ; these Petitioners pray to be he aid in kis*
half, at the bar of the House ; or rather would chef
to dictate their opininits to tills House, in a style
and manner, which, perhaps, would render it the
duty •tf some to move tar the disfranchisenseat of
the Borough. Ao ! ! from ag aides gi to
There was another consideration for rbs
House, before it received the Petition, to be egoista
that the persons who had signed it west: actually
Elcdors cf Lancaster.
Lord GEORGE CAVENDISH assured the
House, that from a perusal of the name's he knee
them to be Electors of that Borough.
Colonel CAWTHORNE said, that be obtained
this day an alphabetical list of the El•rdors of Lan-
caster, and nu every inquiry, it would he found,
that the persons who had signed that Petition were
of that body. It was signed by respedalsle Gentle-
men and Magistrates, with whom the Noble Lord.
who had so kindly presented the Petition, mole
from the extensive estates he possessed in that nee4L•
bourhood, be acquainted.
Lord STANLEY thought the Petition wrier.?
dictatorial, at the same this." lie entertained a
different opinion as to the prop icty of disfranchis;;,e
the Borough. By such a procedure, the innocent
would be confounded with the guilty ; not that he
could ennsido• the Petition actually in the hands ce
the Noble Lord, for the purpose of being mesented,
before the grievance which it states could possibly be
known, by soy means such as the House should
receive.
Mr. STURGF.S BOURNE rose to enter bit
protest against the dodaine laid down by Cie Hoe.
Tslember opposite, and the Noble Lord who just sa'
down. When Gentlemen talked of Motions to din
franchise boroughs, Ise really could not retrain
expressing his stapri,e. To di.tranch:se—fie• ol.at
cause;-1 or the Eleaors basely exercising their en. a
free judgment and choice. Into the propf:et, ('
that choice it was unnecessary to enter ; liom et •
a discussion be should cateltiliy abstain ; but
should Ask, as precedents were: so much the they..'
of observation this evening, where existed the Pt:.
cedent for such motions 44 west recommended b'
some lion. Members? The trims of the Petiins
were also animadverted upon, yet they wtre

111 .9
IParliament for Precede's," of Cages, in wh
bets who have been expelled from this H
Men again returned, Anil to report the
r with tbe proceeding, had thereon "
• Mr. HAKES stibiomi;ed to the 1101111
Nvile Lor (Howick),Wpsposite, whether
notienviarineikore effeflually the ohjec't in
extending ibse '4exestrof the Motion a
forattlear decskiph.?, At least it appeare,
that,gnailheramoild be no dcterminatir
from casein it would be.a preferabl
of wordin c Motion, SO as to embrace
the instances of former Members expelled,
such Members as were expelled, and after
turned, distinguishing the one from the c

municated in the languaere recorded upon the Jour-
nal; of the House. Indeed, whatever may be the
merits of the return made, or whatever may be the
warmth of the Petition itself, nothing could equal
the novel and unconstitutional doarine of the Hon.
Members to whom he had alluded.
After some further observations from Lord
Howick, Lord Stanley, Mr. Herbert, and Mr.
Spencer Stanhope, the Petition was tecrived, and
ordered to lie on the 'fable.
NAVAL SUPPLY.
On the Order of the Day for the House resolving
itself into a Committee of Naval Supply being read,
Mr. Hosuouse in the Chair, ,
Mr. GRENVILLE zone—" Sir, It is now my
duty to propose to the consideration of the Com-
mittee, the nature and detail of the estimates at pre-
sent laid on the table. The natural order of pro-
ceeding would undoubtedly have been, to propose
the vote, the notice for which 1 had the honour pre-
itusly to give, for an addition of 10,000 seamen to
oar naval strengh, was there not a reference made a
trw nights past, to the propriety of having a second
one on that subjea. A reflection was thrown
3:lt upon that circumstance, and a Nobl e Lord was
pleased to charge to precipitance in bringing cepa-
lately, what it appeared to him should have been ef-
feeled at one and the same period. However, I
trust, it will filly appear to the Committee, that
this charge was unfounded, and that the conduit
pursued, was the usual and ordinary. method of
proceeding. In voting the Naval Estimates at the
beginning of a Session, it has been the invariable
poultice of the House never to put any check upon
the recruiting in that branch of national strength,
and whatever may be the precise number of the
seamen affually employed, it is still usual to found
the Estimates upon the last return. Tl,us, the Lot.
mates voted previous to the 31st sit December,
were taken en the average of the n.o ,tu of Septem-
ber, and hence the reason of two distina Motions
upon the subjeet. The last Estimates submitted to
the Committee, were taken on the average of the
three quarters, namely, 120,000 men, whilst the
return of the last quarter, afforded an addition of
six thousand. Having stated the history of the
transaction, and it bring a matter of pleasing 'arc-
hon, that a considerable increase had, within the last
five months, taken place in the establishment of our
naval strength, and as there exists every probaLility
of that increase being poigressi;e, 1 cannot conceive
any apology necessary in calling upon the Commit-
tee for an additional vote of 10.009 seamen, to tli•,
former grant of 1120,000. From these explana-
tions, which, in justice to myself, I felt bussi:d
to make, I trust the Committee will be of opinion
that there was not the slightest ground fur the im-
putation to which I have allude,d. I shall now
trouble the Committee on the nature of a proposed
improvement, which it strikes me will prove a
strong stimulus to invite and encourage those Mem-
bers who have had the opportunity or cutiosity
of directing their attentions to an examination
of the naval accounts, still further to persevere
in so useful and necessary an exertion. It wou.d
perhaps be my duty to rest upon the general ex -
planatien I have given, and having proposed the
reanlu'ioas, to content myself with answering
such questions as Honourable Gentlemen may think
proper to put to me. But I am desirou to sub.
nit ti few observations, which I ceitainle would
not presume to offer to the Committee upon the
strength of my own ju•lgment alone, was it
not supported and reguoited by the maturedand
well deduced opinion of Ifni Majesty's Government.
Indeed, it most be apparent to member id the
House, that a confu.ion and inexplicable irregulari-
ty were invariabiy attached to the manner in which
the naval accounts have been produced ; that toe
accounts were incapable of affording that per-
spicuity of detail, which the magnitude of the sub-
jea, and toe great espence nl supporting that
branch of defence, made p-cuhiarly desilabie. leet
use be not understood as arrogating to myself any
degree of merit, iii the proiudion of the Estimates
I have the honour to propose, or that I ern inclined
4, censure those, whose duty it has hoen, its former
Administrations. to manage this branch of our po-
licy. All it as my intention to impress upon the
Committee, upon has point, is, that it is truly im-
possible not to see the want of facility in inquiring
into the details of so multifarious and complicated
a concern. A great source of the confusion has
arisen from the wale of arithmetical reasoning,
acted upon in the regulation of the Estimates.
—thus, in a vote of one hundred and twenty
thousand men, the usual average for each men is
seven founds, together with the ordinary, ex-
traordinary, and Transport listiniaies. lois Aver-
age ,um of seven pounds poor man, will not be found
sufficient to defray the general dethand of naval
expenditure, and the con.equence is a great increase
of the naval debt. Even in the detesied account,
in which this proportion of seven pounds is granted
to each man, and which is constituted as an aver-
rage in the Estimates produced, great obscurity
and uncertainty prevail. On the score of wages
and victuals, an accuracy and exallness may be ca-
rded ; but c.alculatlng die wear 4nst teat of ships,
is an effiot so very extensive anddillicult, that nume-
roue an ; almost insurmountable obstacles arise.
Slot ss.i.n use eJvantag. s of a clear and accurate
♦:;o:nin itioii are considered, it will appear au °Neel
of necessity, that the attention of Govern-
• :t, and of this House, shotild be diligently ap-
plied, as the result will be a just appropriation of
she expenditure to the demand, a result of the
highest value at all tunes, but most particulatly at
this, when economy is strength and defence, and
which cannot be sieled upon without steadily pursu-
ing the athintiz and details of every extensive branch
of our policy. Was this desirable principle brought
into prat-bee, a great puhlie benefit would be
achieved, a great orength would be communicated
to the country, by convincing the people, that every
attention is given to • the expenditure of that
looney, which they are inclined so cheatlully to
contribute. But, from the nature of some dis-
zioa heads of the naval service, it is impossible to
perfealy plain and intelligible. Inc'
. ships may be so differently affected by
battles, and other accidents, that a very
obscurity must uctavoidably prevail in the
s which such refer. Yet the great un-
which prevails in these branches, is an ad-
reason why perspicuity arid clearness should
se ail his othez departments. I have

addressed the Committee upon this topic, with
greater casfidence, than if the opinion had totally
proceeded from myself, , I do feel strongly ineined
to hope, that, for the future, Estimates will he, pre-
sented to this Ilnuse,capable of afording very full and
adequate information on every item of the accounts.
*I here are some articles and branehes of the naval
system, which, in my mind, are capable of being
r.ndered much more intelligible and satisfaaery
than they generally are ; such as the wages to offi-
cers and seamen, the half pay, the sea lencibles,
the signal ar d telegraeh department; pilotage,
pensions, and superanuations ; wages to workmen
and labourers in the dock-yards; ships built by con-
tra& in merchants' yards; hired vessels; and, lastly,
the most important, and one I once thought in-
capable of being comprehended within an accurate
account, but which 1 now think, if not in the first,
may be justly calculated upon in two or three
years, I mean that branch of the naval system
which is designated the purchase of all kinds of
stores to replenish the nasal magazines in the dock.
yards and several ports, and which is usually esti-
mated at the sum of three millions six hundred
thousand pnunds ; under the same head there now
remain but bills sif exchange, and those articles
which are denominated incidental expences. A
more accurate detail is certainly necessary in
the Viaualling and Transport Boards. Upun a
full view of the case, I am convinced, that when
the various offices are dire ted to prepare the Es.
timates in the manner I have described, it will be
in the power of every Member of the House to turn
to them, as if to an index. • There is one chMge
rather unaccountably introduced in the Naval Es.
timates, I mean the sum of money am, tinting to
more than half a million. for the tepply of the Army
in garrisons abroad. It strikes me, that such a
fare expenditure should not be it.cluded within
e items of a naval act:num. There remains but
one circumstance more, on which I shall beg leave
to trouble the Committee ; it refers to the sum ne-
cessary to liquidate the amount of six months pay
"to the Comissioners of Naval Review. Upon that
establishment I never have delivered an opinion ; of
the Members who compose it, it lothoves me to
speak with every mark of respect. They, un-
dotibte.lly. are Gentlemen of great experience,
pooessing a great and extensive knowledge of
naval subje&s, and capable of imp .thing useful
and important ingot nation. Yet I mu.t be allowed
to say, that the nature of their coma, union, and
the peculiatity of the Commission, has produced no
inconsiderable degree of inconvenience. This In-
convenience did net certainly exit, when the Noble
Lord (Barham), wt o was at the head of the Com-
mission cf Naval Revision, also presided over the
Admiralty ; but the moment ti is conneCtion ceased,
it most be evtdart to the Committer, that the in-
convenience began to operate ; for wt en the Com-
missioners had published their Reports, from their
being printed, they consequently became a gruund
of public discussion. One Net, as a proof of the
inconvenience, whidi I have attributed to the Com-
mission. Among the many suggestions the Coen-
missionets hied thought piper to make, and hints
they had thrown our, there was one regarding the
increase of the general establishment of pay, with
respect to the Nay y. The corsevence was, that '
general opinion had prevailed thorough the Navy,
that the Increase had took n place, and that they
had a right to receive, what the Rennet might have
recommended as right to he carrel into execution.
A commit. icatioit was lately made by that Com-
mission, that the limited period of their existence
was coming to a Hose, accompanied with a strong
desire to centii tie their labour for a few menthe.
Under tfes view of the cate, and with the assurance
that at least the lapse of sit mot the will enable them
tally to arrange the duties far which they were ap.
pointed, I did comply with the wish so strongly
manifested by them, and have row ventured to pro-
pose this addition of the Committee, tor the purpose
of lavidating the salaries of the Com.n.ssioners of
Naval Revision roi six months. Having Sir, I fear,
too long trespassed upon the attention of the Com-
mittee, I have only to request tneir indulgence, and
shall now proceed to move, tt That it is the resolu-
tion of this Committee, that an additional vote of
10,000 seamen, including 2110 royal marines, be
granted to His Majesty, for the year 1307."
Mr—JOHNSTONE could not suppress his opi-
nion, that a great detert must exist somewhere,
when a Lard of the Minh alty was unable to as-
certain the amount of tee naval strength, and was
ignorant of the increase, at a time when the increase
exceeded 3,000 asen. Something should be done
to remedy this deft& ; the end would perhaps be sil-
-1 awered by having the returns more frequent. In the
detail of the improved plan he fulls agieed; he only
regretted that the Hon. Gentleman had not pursued
it in the present Estimates. He also hoped, that
the expenditure would for the future he placed in
eontractistinection to the lestimate,thatGentlemen may
be enabled to ascertain from the comparison, in what
manner the puldm money had been expended. With
respell to the Naval Cosomivion, he could not see
the propriety of continuing a Board fur the pulpine
of proposing what it was the determination of His
Majesty'. Government not to execute.
Mr. ROSE thanked the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite, for the clearmss Wi.n which he developed
to the Committee his intended plan of improvement
in malting up the Naval Accounts. His apprehen-
sion was, that it would be impassible to carry it
into effeel. With respe& to the branch of stores, he
knew, from past experience, that the account could
be made out in a few days, and that, with these
properly detailed, every end would be answered.—
As to the item of charge for tie army serving in
garrisons abroad, the reason of its being com-
prehended within the naval service was, that the
supply of provisions for that army was the objet
of a contract between the Government and Gen-
tlemen generally Members of the House. After
some time, it was fonnd that the competition be-
tween the different Contraatins, raised the price of
the articles; and it was then resolved, that the con-
tra& should be confined to one person, to be made
an item in the Naval Estimates.

Mr. PEItCL•VAL coal not understand the dis-
tinelions made by the Hon. Gentleman relative to the
Boards of NAval Commission, at this period, and when
Lord Barham was at the head of the Admiralty.
It was the duty of all Commissioners Appointed by
the House, or by the Crust. n, to commue.icAte their
suggestions, and pt551:134% their
.repot4 ; and it by

• no means followed, that Itemise the Government
did not think proper to carry these suggestions into
effed, that therefore the Commissioners were wrcng,
or the Government right. Bus with teepee. to the
present case, it 6,1' hoard of Naval Revision was
inro ,ecnient, he askiid, continue it ? and if it
was coilveni—: and useful, why limit it to six
months ? This system of c•mitid required much
explanation from the Right lion. Gentleman at the
head of the Admiralty.
Admiral MA R KH A M ohserved, that the Return
which he wished should appear before the House,
was not yet made, namely, a Retorts of Repairs done
to Ships in the Mer.liatits' as well as the King's
Duck Yards. fie had been told, that it was impos-
sible such an accou a could he made tip ; it did not
appear, however, to him, chat there was much diffi-
culty in the matter.
Mr..PERCEVAL and Mr. ROSE severally fur-
ther explained.
Mr. GRENVILLE, in reply, declared himself
ashamed of dwelliog su long upon the present ques-
tion; but he mast take the Idierty of making a tew
observations, in ansiser to some which had fallen
from Gentlemen on the other side of the house ;
who asserted, that ih bringing forward the present
Estimates, he had done that which was nut the best
to be dune in su,:h case; he could only say, he
had done exadly what WAS unitormly dune upon all
fs finer similar occasions. lie had been also asked.
why he did not make a more accurate calculation
To which he answered, he made it horn that which
has hitherto been the uniform pradice. It Iva* not,
therefore, fair to stateellit's as a point Of negligence
in him, because it was the mode, uniformly adopt-
ed, for years past. With resped to the Commis-
. of Naval Revision, he had also been re-
proached for continuing their services, and accused
of inconsistency, for not discharging them, after
saying, they were no longer necessary. He wished
to know, what inconsistency there WAS in continuing
them, for a few months longer, in order that they
might wind up their accounts?
Mr. JOHNSTONE of•ain, in explanation, ob-
served, that the Hight Hon. Gentleman had made
an 011,11•sion in his speech, that he thought nee soity
to remark. About three or four years ago, thew
were given to under,tand. by a Noble Loid, then La
the head of the Aouttralty, that a saving of one-
third or one.fon,rtb in the expenditure would be
made. The Right lion. Gentleman might have
stated how far that improvement had been carried
into effed by that Noble Lord.

Mr. ROSE again rose, and produced a paper,
from which he read a variety of items relative to
Navy expenditures, front which he argued, that :he
arrangements of the Right lion Gentleman ( Mr.
Grenville) were net new, but that, on the contrary,
the paper which he then adverted to, had been um-
fo-mly drawn up f r the last seven or eight yea's.
lVithout meaning to impute any blame to the Right
Hon. G-ntlernan, he wished to keLoir 1 ..ow it I,ap-
pencil, that copi. s of these papers were not 1u: rushed
fur the information of the house ?
Mr. GRENVILLE again replied, that he had
laid the papers hefor.: the House in the most intelli-
gible way that his mind could suggest ; and the
Ht-.arse could not be supposed to bring any . ensure
upon what had hem) furtnetty do, e. Those ?seers
were prepared hmu the documents in the psoper
office. and he could not stet any such arc, tsar as the
Rea ht thin. Gentleman now produced. Was he,
therefore, to he told, that this was a matter of re-
proach against him, because the Right lion. Gen-
tleman had gut such a paper in his pocket and f e
(Mr. Grenville) had not the means of laying such a
aincument before the House t A great political mea-
sure had called for certain documents, and he had
recourse to the usual and ordinary modes of pro.
cueing them ; and he had now to lament, that lie
had found reproach, where be had endeavoured to
insure approbation.
Mr. RUSE declared, he never meant to cast any
relleaions on the Rain Hon. Gentleman ; these
accounts were annually made up, but he admitted
they had never been laid before Parliament.
Mr. VAN.if :TAR r said, that as long as he had
had the honrmr of aeling in the Treasury, he had
never seen such accounts as those produced by the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Rose)
Sir JOHN hi.WPOItT begged leave to ask, in
what capacity the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Mr.
Rose), became possessed of those papers ? or in what
situation was he when these accounts were made
out ? He could not here help rental king, that
had these papers remained, where they should have
been. his Right lion. Friend woold not have to ask
for them at this time. He was entry to say, it was
now too mach the habit with slime gentlemeo, re•
titing horn office, to consider these kind of papers
as tie wive:. property of individuals ; this was
exemplified in his own case; for when he had fit st the
`honour of coming into the situation be then held.
all the necessary and important papers were gone;
nor could he procure one document that could pos-
sibly a•sist him in the discharge of his duty.
Mr. ROSE answered. that the paper was his owa
private property. and hid been copied at his own
expcnce, and der his own use.
Mr. Re IHVSN wished to know, where the
Right Hon. Gentleman had procured this paper
' Mr. ROSE replied, that it was the copy of a Re-
turn from the Navy Office. He was not the keeper
of the papers, nor was he responsible for them.
The Resolutions were then read and agreed to,
as follow :

That there be raised for His Majesty's Service, 111,C011 ad.
diuoaal Seamen, including 2003 11,ryal Marines.
The following sums were then voted for the
above purpose :
For %V ages . . . 1..241.100
V tetti•ls
. 247,0011
• •
•
Wur and Tear .
• 193,000
• •
Ordnance Sea Service 330.100
. .
ordinary Services, and Ilalf-pay . 1,133,4'34
•
Ship Burning, sc. ▪ 11,134.'03
Hos of Transports • 1,5.1.1,u00
. .
Sick and W. coded ▪ 300,000
•
Prisoners of War, Expenees . 3u0,000
Mr. VANSIT CART then moved the following
Sums, for Miscellaneous Services for the year, viz.:
L. a d.
Superinten•lant of Aliens • . 6,1133 0 0
Expenees of Ilueureet pollee Office . tte.loo 0 n
Convicts
• 51,330 0 0
. .
Extra Charge for Contingerielee in the three
Secretaries' of State O&M . 13.000 0 0
•
Extra (7/large for Messeegers . 11,000 ,4:1 0
',vermin and Una Secret Service, . . 173.000 0 0
Law Charges • • . 23,444 ,I 0

-v

/ors &mimeos open Criminal Pr, weutions . 3.A0111 00
Paid Siserith of Counties, for the Conviction of C
Felons • 11,800 • 0
Giant. to Ftirich Clercs en* Emigrants, ltd. 1s SP la v.
'To make gmid Delicieticios sawe . 1.44.4 ft 4.
Protestant D.ssentiqg Miuntcrs . 1004 • • '
Minneets ash' Vordan • 1,11 s 4
S..atot,es 1,934 4
Manes for Olken of Stith Houses of Perlis-
inset, Serjsant at A•tus, &c. . 5,250 0 •
W,•rks done to 1):,01 it,USAS of Parliament, the
Spasker's Mouse, are . 50,760 0 0
To make good the 'awe, and for Works ime.
undertaken . Miff° 0 •
Pillskitig Military Roads . • .
The House having resumed. the Report was or-
dered to be breught up on Monday.
Lord HOWICK moved, "That the Committee
appointed fir watching for precedents relatise
to Members expelled, should be at liberty to sit,
notwithstanding any adjournment of the lii-use."
o:dered.
Mr. ROSE expressed a wish that the Committee '
urn the Arms. Evint.tes 'melt be postponed.
Lord HENRY PETIT and Lois! HONICI:
opposed :itch a measure, considering the business of
great importance to be gone through. whiult they
thought, ft oat the full discussion which it had ,
dergone up•in a former night, it could cot tow
occupy much if the i:me of die Hamm.
Mr. JOHNSTONE: pin it as a matter of favour,
to be conferred upon the Geod. men upt.n I.i. side
of the House, (the Oppostion,) to postpoee
matter.
Mr. VANSITTART was proceeding to make
seine ohservetions, vibe* the SPEAKER reminded
tl:e H use that there was no question before them.
The order of the Jay for going into a Committee
upon the Army Es:imatas, being read
Sir JAMES PULITNIY roia, and observed,
that it would have bean much better fur the
public service that this sulied should be postponed 3
vet, as it vow to be resumed, he siiould trouble the
House, but for a short time, after the length of dos-
cussinn whit h had already taken place upon other
lesions. The Right Honourabie Gent!cruan (:• r.
seindham), must have ezpefied ‘i.rne great wt..
cis' frosts hit plan, ahich he had so seemly re-
commended the House to adopt; but for his
part he could not see that there was any intro.-
diate supply of men resulting L out it ; but. au 11
dmtrary, he thiiii)cht it would be the cause f
a considerable dirrnnution of she regular army ; :
and it was .-.omplet,ly established by the estimate
and returns, that tie ad.:ition had been made this
year to the army; and if this measure had never •
ts.en adopted, lie was cuntident cur army would
have been much more numerous now. The present
time was admitted t^ be the moment when we
she uld have a large army. and it was an established.
point, that A great army was the greatest object $
and he mu.t say, that had the lot mer plans been
persevered in, we should now be in a roach better
situation. The T:aning Bill he wished, if i: was
ol fer anything, should hc put into execuuon,
it it was otherwise, it was better to re;eral it alto.
get her.
Sit JOHN DOYLE.-." I agree with the. Hon.
Baronet, the: it would have been better to have de-
tiered this question for a more convenieet time; hut
such an argument came very badly it im his side
of the House (the Opp 'sition)44ind, indeed, it ap-
pears to time. that the geotlemei have rather been
speaking agair;st time, than any thing else. But
first, co the point of the Hon. Baronet, who says.
we should have a good army, and argues, that the
Additional Force Bill would effnfl this. Wity, Sir,
of all the measnies that could be imagined, it was
the worst, and did every thine hot that which it pee.
tested to do ; and, after le months experiment, then
gentlemen said. it is gr:i..p, to be mended. Tuts
puts me in mind ofa story til one of our P.iets, who,
being irascible, as writ al deformed, used to say--
I' God mend me." When a friend observed. '4 it
would be better to make twenty new one', than
mend nne like you." But they were going to met
it. 'Phis also reminds me of a Priest's mai I. %0..
when called for any purpose, was just going to
do it ; arid when her master asked her one day, bad
sire washed his books (in order to try her) she, as
usual, answered, Just going to do it.' Or, like
the Duke of Wharton's puppies, they never opened
their eyes till they were goisig to be drowned. Po
speak more seriously. if indeed thu question is worth
a ,erious thought, the Getulemeu hive calculated
rang. for they have taken the ~umbers raised %mete
tine Additional Force Ad. and those enlisted into
the Regular Army, together. With regard to the
plan proposed by the Right Hon. Gent. (Mr. Wind-
ham) it certainly would produce a certaiuredgraduel
supply to the army. But I should say sorneming on
canting to this side of the House (the Oppositicie side)
when I teean to speak against the measures 05 tote
Gentlemen; the fad was, that side of the I louse the
Ministerial) is always so full, I came here in order
to get a good place (is leapt). hut I do assn., the
Getlemeo, that I am not come iato their camp to
spy the nakedness of the land. Bat at this time,
would recommend to these Gentlemen to adopt the
words of Talleyrand, upon a late occasion, emu me
Jonaartes pas la a 1,74 d !wish). Howe,. r
%tiling I may be to Jo justice to the eloquence of
these Gentlemen, I canuot but lament that their
opposition should, at such a moment, be em.
ployed in obsuuding the unanimity so essential
to the interests of this county, for surely there revel
was a petiod in toe annals of our history, when
unanimity was so imperiously demanded ; for a
nation, no more than a house divided, cannot
stand against itself.' But lam not so romantic, as
to suppose political history shall be for ever buried
its oblivion. I only hoped it would have been al-
lowed to sleep till the great object of national secu-
rity was complete. I shall rot follow the Noble
Lord (Castlereagh) in his inflated calculation. nor
enter into that infinite diverging series, which, by it;
rapid accumulation, was to over whelne the country
with expence, in providing for its brave defenders; a
calculation which would deprive t: e worn quilt veteran
of a chance of spending, in calm repose, the evening of
that day, which he had dedicated to his country, and
bring his grey hairs, with sorrow, to the rave. A
calculation which stooped to visit tbe.trteclue.l.ll
of infirmity, in Chelsea and Kilmainbaia HOi4la,
• cakulasion which wanted lambing bulludatio
to stand upon, thereby following the'motie allt •
moastration, ascribed by Mr. Locke ti.certain un-
happy people, who always reason tight from wrong '
principles. lam aware that, in a tree country like
this, an Oppoutioo is a wholesome check tiipo bli.

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