The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1819-12-18 00:00:00

SEDITIOUS MEETINGS.

The Order of the Day beiiig;;:idfor going into
a Committee upon the Bill for the prevention of
Seditioiss Meetings—
Lord SIDNIOUTII rose, and moving that the Bill
be referred in a Committee, he said lie should
lament extremely if their Lordships entertained any
objection to the principle of this measure, for not- I-
withstanding the manner in which they had already
acquiesced in some other measures, calculated to
meet the danger with which the country was threat-
ened, he hoped a great majority of their Lord•
ships, if tint all, would feel that they had imper-
fectly performed their duly to the country if they
did not likewise sidopt the present measure. Con-
sideriog the discussions which had lately taken place,
in which the nature and character of the evils
that affected the country were maturely examincd,
considering also how much the public attention
had of late been draw to to the great public meet-
;sigs which had been held in various parts of the
country, lie should conceive it an unwarrantable
waste of their Lordships' time were lie to enter
minutely into u detail of the particulars that mark-
ed those meetings. They had been conducted upon
a perversion of a great public right, and were cal-
culated to turn a privilege dear to every English-
man into one of the instruments for destroying the
Constitution. The character and object of these
meetings he could not better describe than in
the words of the preamble of the present Bill,
which declares that they are injurious to the peace
and tranquillity of the country, fraught with chili.
tier and alarm to his Majesty's peaceful subjects,
and conducted in a manner that must produce con-
fision and calamity. The points to which he
begged leave principally to dire'ct their Lordships'
attention, were, whether the existing laws were
sufficient to counteract the evil ?—isliether, taking
as admitted that a certain evil of great magnitude
existed, lie* legislative provisions were necessary
to counteract it ?—and, finally, whether the pro-
visions now proposed were calculated to attain
their object? The existing law was insuflicient
to prevent those tumultuary meetings which were
fraught with so much danger, for it did not re-
quire notice to be giveri of the iiiteittiou of bidd-
ing them; it prescribed 'no mode, and imposed no
restraint upon the Mariner of conducting them ;
it did not prohibit people from proceeding to
them in martial array, nor from bearing ban-
ners and embleins ; it did not prevent simulta-
neous meetings, nor the holding of meetings
by way of adjournment; and although it per.
united Magistrates to arrest persons holding forth
language of a seditiout character, it did not
enable them to declare the whole meeting illegal,
and therehy, to interrupt its further proceedings.
The eilitiuglaw did not provide against the fla-
grant abuse of suffering perscriii hot properly con-
nected with a district, parish, or town fcr which a
Meeting was convened to mingle in its proceedings,
nor did it guard against the mischief of itinerant
Orators t r ing the country. For all these points
the new Bill provided. It required that notice of
six days should be given of au intended turetilig,,
and that the notice should be signed by seven house-
holders. It forbade people going thither in mah•
tary array, with flags and banners, and for the pre.
Tendon of simultaneotis Meetings, gave Magistrates
a power of altering the time and place of hold-
ing thrill. It took away the power of holding
Meetings by adjournment. These were impor-
tant points. mid when it was considered that
the Bill did not infringe upon the subject's
right of attending meetings regularly conven-
ed by Sheriffs of toduties, Mayors, and other
head officers of towns, and even by the concur-
rence of eve Magistrates, and Only guarded against
the abuse of a most valuable right, it Must be ac.
knoivledged that the existing law was deficient.—
Sante objections were, he understood, made to this
Bill, to one of which lie shoUld say but a word, as
it would with inore prOpriety be discussed in the
Committee. It wai desired that the Bill shmild
be limited in its operation both as to time
and space. It inirst,
however; be remembered,
that in the yeiii 1790, a great meeting was held at
Copenhagen Hunar, which wai felt at the time to be
intimately Connected with the atrocious outrage
committed upon his Majesty's person on opening
the Session. A Bill to the effect of that no* under

consideration was then introduced. and if it was
Wise then tb give the Dill on unlimited operation in
point aspect.. what inuat be the opinion now. When
they looked to the itiertingi of which. week after
week. and day after dityi they had heard aecolints
Coning from every quarter odtraglng the price of
eurielyl end trrityag
.the loyal and welladisposed
part of the conitufiritty With respect to the dune.
Lion of the Bill, it was now limited to five years.
but he ahould only deceive theta were he to Contest
from thew his sincere impression that the Bill

The
E al of CARNAL:VON rose and said. I.e found
himself placed in a sitiration of extreme ri.lficulty,
fur fro ?iTtte time was given to bin' to cuii.idrr sipoo sti
the measure, that he could hardly Ire said to have
formed a decisive opinion upon its merits. So far
as lie had read it, he foinid it so ohjectiotiable in
all its parts, that if he consented to refer it to a
Committee, he should do so from necessity, and
with little hope that by any exertions they chirld
materially improve so Null a Bill. 111; oDect
should be to limit its operation point, of tiffs ,so
that the Ministers may have the advatitaot of its
present operation to meet the existing linger,
while the country would be protected from the
disadvantage of heing subjected to its effects for wry
lengthened period. Fir admitted the iinpossibiiity
of applying, in the wilco state of society, the old
principles of the common law to every new crisis.
iiid tenacious as lie ever was of those principles,
he could not fail of obseiving, that Since the
century subsequent to the Revolution in 16-8.
within which our constitution lord acouirt-d its
port, dignity, and consistency. the internal State
of this country had greatly changed, and that
the oilcans of governing the country wish ad--
vantage hail undergone a great alteration. He
was bound to admit this, hut still, if the preient
measure were to be considered, as the Noble Lord
opposite seemed to desire, as likely to f.orni a per-
manent part of the law of the land, hr should con-
tend that great modifieationa were necessary,
The present Bill, though not now proposed to he
permanent, yet was fur so long a time, that many
of the evils of permanency attached to it, soil vet it
was pushed forward with such preciiiiiatior, that
the House were now compelled to debate at the •
same time its principle and details. Much of the
existing evil wat, lie firmly believed, caused by the
supineness of the Government in the year ISIS.
and with these fee liogs he should move that it lie
as instruction to the Committee that the operation
of the Bill hr restsicted to the Ist of July 18,22.
It certainly would not lie desirable that an entire
Parliament should pass away without again taking
the measure into their consideration ; nor did he
think that it would be borne by the country, if it
were understood that it was not to lie of short tiara-
tion, and it. enactments were to become pal t cf the
permanent law. 'lime 1311 provided that no county
meeting should he held tulless when cosier-tied by
the authority of the Ili;;!) Sheriff of the room% , of
the Lord Lieutenant, ax Curios Ilutelortinr, for by
five Magistrates, and it rtlxetii that no general meet.
iug of a tow.. shah be hold unless under the aui hos
rity of the chief officer. But there were several
large towns, said the Noble Earl, which had Its
corporations, such, for instance, as Maur pester,
in such cases, if the town consisted of inure than
one parish, no general meeting for a pOrroe
ing to the general concerns of the town could be
held, if in the remotest way the subject on ssalch it
was called referred to politic Separate meetings
indesid might he held for separate parishes, not
coold the sentiments of the people be expressed its
this 'runner with equal effect or energy, and possi-
bly some partraial limit may prevent. p. irons
from attending at the meeting, whose ;nese:ice •
and concurrence would enable the meeting to
proceed with advantage. Brit with respect to
county meetings, the Howse should pause before
they would pass fur five 'ears a BM that fek mate-
rially affected them. By tlsis measure all dignity
and effect were taken away from a comity meeting.
They might he convened by the Lord Legate/mut.
but let the House consider that the Laval Litt:tu-
mult was an officer of the Crown, removable at the
will of his Majesty's 'Ministers.. They had indeed
lately seed tt manifested, that should a Lord Lieu.:
tenant presume to express an opioion cutitrary to
the will of the Ministers, he must instantly be .1 as
ttlisied.—(fiear.)—What hope then had they of m-
dependeuce in a I.,nril Lieutenant ? A Sheriff was
likewise effectually appointed by the Ministers of
the Crown, and though he doubted not that. twined
as the Magistracy of England now is, there would
he found five independent Magistrates who would
on a great pdblic queStion concur in coostriling
meeting of the people, yet if the resells mea-
sure were to pass into a law, it would be for
them to consider what effect it would of tie.
cessity produce upon the character of the
Magotracy. It was now the peculiar huset of
England that it heel an extensive institution nf
unpaid Magistrates.—(l-/ear, hear.)—Not only rtof
no °thee country iii Europe boast this proud insti-
tution, but no other country had the means of
forming d ; the House therefore ought to weigh
well the provisions of a Bill, which, if rendered
permanent; may hate the effect of totally destroy-
big this untie iintituttou.—(Hear, hear.)--la case
the law became permanent. could it be supposed
that the Magistrates would be appointed as freely
and fairly as they now were ? The Nlugisdatts
were appointed by
rally on the recur
tenant. But he
a Lord Lieutenant
a Lord Chino--
deed, the
held the.
polutmeut

• it

',hated 1-)y the Lord Chancellor, gene-
ih* recommendation of the Lord Lieu-
But he had already shewn them what
ieutenent was. and they ad knew whit
Chancellor wais..l44 lort4.)—lf, in-
seals were always in such hands as now
, he could entertain us fears for the au-
of the Magistracy, but!! viewing a ge-

sera cicstion, they were not to be affected by the
I....acter cf any individual, they were to consider
the cf.ice only, and that it might he filled without
a regaid to virtue or ititeerite. In such is ease,
she security woold the CPU iiiry have against the
eppoiiitnient of Magistrates, possessing un recitin-
witnlation to power lint their devotion to the ex-
isting Minister, and who would taint by party fel-
ing the poor.: of justice ? The Noble E ivy thou
,ermeg!y coino.entesl upon the intpulicy of the clause
eitne hill which enabled one Alagistrate to alter
the time nod place of the meeting. which rendered
an 11,11,:•.• inietitig illegal by the forswore of an lode.
dual vet properly entitled to attend it, which
g.tve to any silly Illorkliend invested with the
powers of a hlseistratc, or even an Under-
Sheriff, who was u-Daily a party agent to disturb
say meeting, by re (1111Illig :ill strangers to depart
wok., a quarter of on 'hour, under pain of trans-
portation. lye also condemned the clause which
n tliornied any nighttime. upon Ws own judgment,
to .rest any individual who might in his *ohm
propound doctrines calculated to bring the Goi.
...raiment and Constitotion of the country, as by
1.411, established, into contempt. or who stionlit re-
commend the alteration of any law by any other
than legal means. This gave a forge discretion to
Meer:Pates, many of whom would be willing to
attire it to party purposes, and many would per-
cent lt through ignorance. ii a man at a 'public
meeting were to argue an abstract principle, such,
fur inetssice, as that the people were justified
ie such a ease as that of James 11. in exercise
rug the right of resistance as the only means they
had left of securing their liberties and their reit-
gioo, sonie weak and silly Msigistrate—weak in
worst or understanding, but strong in the capability
of doing mischief. might arrest such a man as in..
citing the people to overturn the constitution. If
itt a public meeting coiled for the porpoise of pro.
posiog an alteration in the constitution as by law
establisher!, any individual were to *hew the neces-
sity of soCh an alteration, it would be immediately
urged that he was endeavouring to bring the consti-
totion into contempt. in short all priblic meetings
would be censigned to the caprice of an
indi-
rdllal Magistrate, who either corruptly or igno-
rantly might abuse his power, and prevent the
xerci.e of one ef the noblest rights of Eng-
lishmen. if this law passed, a county meeting would
he no longer a proper place for an independent
4( ;col kman ; that is. if lie were opposed in principles
11/ the Minister of the day. Ile had, since the corn-
inrerenseist of the Session, acknowledged that some
&hover existed, and that some coeviive measures
v. e+c recessary, presided they were temporary. and
riai pot too much infringe upon the principles of
tee conelitntins-; but he also contended, that
touch evil had arisen from the supineness of
he Government. Noble Lords on his *isle of
Inc .1 louse heal suggested the expediency of offer-
ors; -nine conciliatory mesenres, tint the ides of
• occ•iation wns rejected, as if it necessarily
/see rd a concession of soinething vatualde. lie
eia* hippy. however, to find that his Majesty's
Mroisters at length had seen the prudence of
'`':seas? meow; of conciliation, and they had no
.!out! ! contributed much Mimi& gratifying and
4.ol.rib:sting the public mind by the clause iatro-
ibieeil on the suggestion of ills Noble Friend (Lord
Holland) into the Traverse Bill. depriving the
Attorery-General of the power he had hitherto pos.
sessed of keeping informations iiidefinitely sus-
percled ever the beads of his Majesty's subjects.-
11 was but a few years kick since a similar propo-
wino was mask by his Noble Friend to their Lord.
s!:tps. on which occasion he was told that it %souls
be a" infringement of the prerogative of the Crown.
What distinction was between thee and that period,
that made the infringement less necessary. he did
cot know, but he would leave it to the Noble Loris
',Nies:tr. to answer. There was another Bill intro-
it...veil by the Noble Secretary of State. which at-
tached the dreadful punishment of transportation
tr. a person twice convicted of publishing a hind.
%Vilest he and the Noble Lords who was in the !io-
ta: ef acting with him remonstrated against that
they were told that they were holding out
to the public encouragement to persist in the pub-
leat.cei of seditious libels. (however, in another
ulare it had been expunged from the Bill. In the
tore place. a Bill had been brought in touching
PArliatrientary Reform, which went to do away
oitli clue of the most corrupt boroughs in the coun-
t:), which was a subject that his majesty's Ministers
win met in that House would not listen to. On the
to'sject ef Reform he begged their Lordships per.
in,%1110/1 to say a few words. Ile would never give
I:s consent r what was celled a general reform.
Ile could not bring his mind to assent that the dis-
TCPV/Pg of the country proceeded from the present
I a:roams of the House of Commons. If it was
'awe perfectly framed, it must be admitted that it
could nut be mote averse to war, and all the con-
comitaut evils attending it. They bad been told
it was an old establishment, noel evils hail crept
i :to it ; he for one would not deluge it for a new
inc. If' they had a snore popular Parliament it
would nut present the meetings in Smithfield. The
great benefit they derived from the practical con-
stitution of Parliament, as it POW stood, was. that
el; his Majesty's Ministers were obliged to be
i.nihers of it, and to be amenable to it for
their conduct, and that eve, y 11111. of talent in
the country could find his way there, and if
%vie otherwise constructed, men of talents
sessald lie driven to other means out of doors, a hich
might become dangerous to the State. Holding
0,1-se principles, it could slot be supposed that
be was mu advocate for every wild scheme of reform,
bus when corruption crept into the system, it was
Inn duty to use a remedy, and he for that reason
t !caught the tnesstil e 'nought forward elsewhere
would have the effect of performing the cure with-
eat sestittiag to a snore gee:vial one. as giving the
electien to great local towns, when ho-
ios:ghs were proved to be not worthy of the elective
Ij4iit, would do every thing that souhl satisfy
thinking part of the conouireity. sod renew
th- coofidence of even the disautislied in Perlis-
itieist. The Noble Earl concluded by moving as
se A melidinent, that the duration cif the Bill
should be limited to the Ist of July. 1t521.. .....

• Lord KING bad a decided übp-ciioti to the Bill.
it stood um its owu lumodetion. but be bad r
- objecuon w hen he - -Idered of

such an inrcad beitie made in the constitution.
His belief war, that the discontents and distresses
of the country were in great measure canoed by the
conduct of his Majesty's Mildews, fo► which ►ea-
snn they reinsert to grant an inquiry into them.
afraid of implicating themselves, was
then deprived of one of their rig,lits, that of io.
quiry, to cover the misconduct of a ftliiiister or a
Magistrate. if the discontent of the people was
caused hydistress—t here was a mode of kgislaiing that
of inquiry ; but if the thseotitriit arose from an.
oVier cnise, would not the snow method apply, in-
stead of tthing it, as the Noble Secretary desired,
on the notoriety of the cause ; loud with the whold
of the coercive measures there was not tune concili-
atory one offered. The amendments to the present
Bill were not even an overthought of Ministers, but
it was wrung front them by those who were in the
habit of opposing their measures in another place.
The clause of traiispottatium in another Bill, which
hid received their Lorthlsipti. assent, but which hap.
pity was now blotted from the face of it, chewed
it was the intention of Nlinisters to ranter an arbi-
trary government. They had great Telopii to be
jealous of the Ministers of the Crown, for if they
did not wish fug. arbitrary measures they would have
introduced the Bill as a temporary measure, and
not one that was to continue for five years. lie
would not say that their present Situation was one of
safety, fur it certainly was disturbed, but he would
recommend measures of conciliation, and if that
was not attended to, and that ut• irritation resorted
to, the consequences most test oil the heads of
those who produced it. Titerelore, even as a tem-
por.try measure, he could not assent to the Bill,
but however he did vote against its principle, he
would support the amendment of his Noble Friend.

The Duke of ATHoI. conceived it his duty to
support the Bill, as he considered the situation of
the country to be such as called for the measure,
and that the people of Great Britain looked up to
their Lordships for protection, After the over-
whelming majority to the Address to the Prince
Regent, hot only of those who generally supported
Ministers, but of those who acted independent of
them, plealging themselves to measures for the
preservation of the peace of the country, he was
surprised that there should be at:y objection) to the
lote,•ent BM. The treasures su;:gested by :Willis-
ters were called for by the country and the Parlia-
ment, and they only did their ditty in bringing
them forward. IVltatrver difference there might
be in the views taken by either side of the House,
there could be but one in their intentiolis, which
was the welfare of the country and the Constitution;
and the only differroce between them was, whether
the present Bill was one of a proper nature to repel
the evils the country was threatened with. As to
the amendment of the Noble Earl, he understood
him to say, that every clause of the Bill was so orb-
ject:onable that he could not agree to any of them if
the measure was to be in force for five years, but if
they would agree that it should be limitted to two
years. he would agree to them all. That certnittly
might be good argument, but it was a kind of tra-
mming he did not understood. Ile was consinced
that the calamity of British blood being spilled by
Britons was prevented by the measures brought for.
ward by Ministers, by meetings not taking place
which were prevented by the knowledge of what was
paasiog to Parliament. He was aware that theee
had beets unfounded alarms as to the state of the
country, but that was caused by Parliament not sit-
ting sooner, and when it did meet, the reports came
so Gist, that they had not time to inquire into them.
He listened with much attention a few nights; back
to the Noble Marquis (Laniodowii), when he told
them of the distresses of the country, but lie did
not inform them how to remedy them. It was true
he told them of the evil, but left their Lordships to
find out the remedy. After the overwhelming
majotities approving of three measures, he was at a
loss to know why they should be now objected to.
Earl MoRI.Ey flattered himself that the spirit of
sedition had not risen to so great to pitch that it
could not be subdued, but oil the fullest inquiry,
he was sorry it was not in his power to say that lie
could congratulate them on its diminution, but
hoped by the measures then forbore Parliament that
it would be put an end to. His Lordship then took
a review of the conduct of the unpaid Magistrates
of the country, and said, that they were a most in-
valuable set of men ; there were no men of more
local knowledge or discrimination, or who were
more willing to extend their knowledge; fur which
remelt there were no set of men. however respects
able, deserved more to he upheld by the country
and the Parliament. He teight agree with the
theory of Noble Lords opposed to the measure, but
there were times when theory must yield to the
circumstances of the times. As to the distresses of
the people, lie had no doubt but by the protection
of the higher and middle orders, they would be its
time relieved.
Tie Earl of DONOUGHMORE said, this:king as
he did,- he could not help objecting to the saddling
the country with the measurer proposed by his Ma-
jesta's Ministers ; he therefore objected to the
present Bill as part of the whole. 11-by take away
that great right of the people of petitioning without
molestation his Majesty and the two Houses of
Pat figment ? It had been contended that it did not
take away the right ; he would allow it was so for
the sake of the argument, List it limited it, as it
put the meetings under the direction of persons
appointed by the Crown. The people had
not been convicted of doing wrong, and there.
fore they ought not to be punished ; but sup-
pose the facts had been proved as they related
to the meetings at Manchester moil other party of
the country, would that be sufficient ground to
divest the people of their constitutional rights? Ile
fur one would say not, although the Noble Secre-
tary of State had said that the notoriety of these
meetings was a sufficient ground for the present Bill.
lie would never give his assent to such doctrines.
They had itichided Ireland in the Bill, although
it had been allowed by one of the Ministers its
another place that the cooduct of the people of that
country was most exemplary. Why afro was she
to be devolved of her rights? %Vit. it because she
was acting in obedience to the laws as they exist,
that cotersive nttasores were to be used towards
her ? Was it b. cause her conduct was such as it
ought to be that she should have another chain put
about her neck ? What was Parliament doir ?
T,

r

and afraid you should depart from it, we will put
a new fetter on it. This was not legislatit,g, for the
purpose of remedying so evil. hut trying how far
they could torture before the ohject would ger exas-
perated. The Bill came before them in fed com-
pany, for it wit accompanied by another thst delis iv.
ed the subject of defending his house in the tsight.
time. In trolls the Alinistcrs got frightened; they
called Parliament and frightened it by their state-
ments, and. refract of routratliction. refused all in-
quiry into the truth of them, then brought fnrward
throe measures in defence of their own characters, to
sinew the public that they had not been asleep at
their posts; but if they bad used the power in their
hands, there would lie sin necessity for the pre-
sent measures. If, in times of difficulty, they
had neglected to use the means they had,
their Lordship. ought not to countenance their
neglect by heaping penalties on the people.—
With respect to Ireland, lie was of opinion the
original intention was not to include that country
within the operation of the Bill. Ile believed the
framer of it, and the Ministers theinselet a thought
on; but on re-consideration they were of ',pinion,
that though there was tin recess tv to include Ire-
land in the Bill, yet that they might 1111 well make
one business of it, and throw in the whole empire
into their system of corroon.—(/tear.)—lle won.
detect, indeed, they did not ismclude the remote de-
pendencies of the Crown, its well as the more im-
mediate parts of the empire : they had just us
much right to do the one as the oilier. To include
Ireland was 'merely for the sake of insult—it could
be for nothing else ; for in the state of Ire-
land there was nothing to which this Bill
could be at all applicable. When Ireland was
in a disturbed state, which she was not now. she
contrived her ;40114 better than the Radicals did in
this country. filer meetings were not like tbeir%
in noisy and tumultuous numbers—they were, on
the contrary, in small and secret Committees. If
she were therefore disturbed at the present time.
this Bill would not be applicable—it would not
touch the source of the danger ; so that in no way,
tinder no circumstance, could the me:!ssue have a
real applioaf to the state of things in ireland.
whether tranquil or others% i.e. In the unfortunate
state of that country, in !Sines of civil dissetition,
I here was 11011111:g of these sorts of attempts to
assail the GOVC, 1111 l ent, by marching in lock-step to
great public meetings. The Noble Lord con-
eluded by pronouncing a general cont!eint,tition of
the measure. and intimating (as we understood..
for t lie Noble Lord tip ke in a low tone of voice)
the necessity of exempting, Ireland, from the cope.
ration of this Hear, liar.)
Time Earl of II ARROWBV expressed his surprise
that after all which the Noble Lords opposite must
have heard of the state of the country, tisry. should
gill avow their opinions so generally hostile to this
Bill. Some of their objections went to the prin-
ciple of the measure, while others were confin-
ed to the proposed date of its continuance. Now
if the Bill were so bad as they represented it in be,
it (night not to be passed at all—it might not to be
permuted even to have a temporary existence. This
Bill was unlike others which were rendered neces-
sary by the state of the country, contrary to the
principle of the constitstt , mind only justified
upon the ground of imperious necessity. It. on the
contrary, coistrevened no real popular right, and
might, instead of bring limited, have been render.
rd perinsuent without any infringement of the tint
principles of the colistitestiou. It was held indeed
by some, that Ilse meettogs of the people ought
not to be subject to regulation—that they ought
to be conducted just as it pleased their too-
looters, in any manner, at any time or place,
and in any numbers. Tints argument came strangely
too from quarters from which it was Intimated that
Ministers ought to be impeached, for not dispersing,
at the time, the tumult miry meetings held its the me.
trempolis. [The Eat lof Doisosiglimore in explanation,
said he had only alluded to their prevention, not tbs.
persionl Tlw worst part of the defence of such meet-
ings was their bring grounded on the Bill of Rights :
but there was 111111111Ig in the history of that Bill to
make that position tenable. Ile did not think the
people's tight to meet for the pm pose of petition
bad any reference to the Bill of is-l:--they had
a right to hold meetings, but not altogether with-
out regulation. Their right to meet was ancient
and undoubted. It was not indeed defined by any
particular statute, but existed in virtue of that ge-
neral ptinciple of the Cnitioitutinn, which asserted
that what was not forbidden by law, was law.
The Noble Lords opposite seemed by their ob-
jections to thiok th it Bilk of this kind should
be free I. every objectionable detail—that
they should have nothing 113 them calculated to
excite a differeesce of opinion ; according to such no
opinion, they ought to lw urtrandum, lunduudum
tulle" duo. Ile was ready to admit that it one cit.
CUMMIIIICe more than another oats calculated to
promote the glory of the country, it eves the cos:.
stitutional right of the people to exprcss their opi-
nions upon the state of public affairs.—(lleur.l--•
But was it by such rneetinAs as their Lordships
had lately wen this opinion was to be expresser)?
Quite in a ellfereist aay had the meetings been field
which in the best days of British history exhibited
a glorious struggle for popular light. Ile was old
enough to remember the county inee•ings which
took place in various parts of the cottony iii the
years 1779 and 1780. fur laying public mansion at
the foot of the Throne, and before both Iluoft-s of
Parliament. Lle remembered the celebrated meet-
nig at that period held in the county of York,
which Sir George Saville descrthell in the Ihnise
of Cololllolls to hist comic-steel of the gentry of
that great county, the twines of six hundred
of whom lie Ltid on the tahle. Of the same meet.
lug Lord Bin kingliam said its that I leu•e, that the
rental of those who chiefly conspioesl it, atuonuttd
to upwaids of 800,000/. a ear. All thesr meet-
ings too. be it tentembeved, were regtilatiy con-
vened by the Sheriffs, and to them only were sum-
moned the gentry and leelsoldcrs of the vomit,,
mill inhabitants paying direct taxes to the State.
The meetings ton, in Mr. Fox's time. iii West.
minster Ilall, were exclusively for the inhabitant
householders of Westminster. There was siestlinig
in the present Bill to prevent such mettii g* from
being now called. 'Fite Lord Lieutenant cools!
call a comity meeting, so could the Sheriff. the
Cactus Rotulurur the iority of • Grassei Jr

sides, the Atag-dretes were not empowered, In tl:e
first instance, to disperse any meeting. even by this
Bill. They were only authorised to arrest any person
who may be tittering seditious language at • meet-
ing, and not to disperse the meeting unless resist-
puce were differed to the authority of the Magistrate..
The Noble Earl (Dopouglimore) had paid, that this
Bill was enacted upon evidence, if not insufficient.
at least scant,. To this be would reply, that if
their Lordships had riot had one single piece of evi-
dence laid no their table, it reqoired 'oohing more
to justify the voaciment of this Bill than that they
should have eyes to see and rues to hear.—(hear.)
Wilful lilindlewas nridl deafness could alone account
for the oporiions of those who saw no danger in the
present state of the country. Was it nut enough to
see the ►late of alarm in which the people had been
kept for months hark by wandering meetings. and
those pests of society, itinerant oriarors, in various
parts of the country, where it became neces-
sary that some towns should he placed, as it
were, in a state of siege, to ensure the protection of
the loyal and peoceable portion of the community ?
—(Hear.)—lt was in virtue of this right of peti.
tem, it seemed, that immense bodies of people
claimed, to the terror of the well-disposed part of
the community, the right of marching backwards
and forwards, and impeding every sort of public
W is the right of petition the only
veto:dile right possessed by Englishmen? For
what purposes had they entered into the social
compact of civilized life, but for the security
of their renown and property from the uncer-
tainty and violence of the caprice of mere pity.
steal force? To protect this plate of society
from the n►vchinations of the seditious and the de-
luded, it had now unfortunately become necessary to
have an army at Manchester, an army at Glasgow,
and another at Newcastle. AVlien persons talked
of the undefined nature of popular rights, and al-
luded to meetings of the people, they should take a
retrospect of the growing population of the country.
In the year 1750 the whole population of Lim-
cashire did nut exceed 300,000, and consist-
ed almost entirely of agricultural persons, while
at the present period that of Salford and Man.
cheater alone exceeded altogether, the whole enmity
population at the preceding period. The different
state of the population since that period, was also
entitled to serious consideration. It now consisted
entirely of manufacturers, and depended of course
upon the slate of the market. The misfortune of
well a condition was the fluctuating provision it
afforded, for the sale of the manufactures was de-
pendant upot► a variety of causes—want of capital,
wont of demand, change of fashion may create that
alteration, which would throw nan►bers out of work.
The vast improvements in machinery had also a
powerful operation upon the question of the coin-
'meatier state of the population. and its means of
►ubsistence. Formerly, before machinery had at-
tained its present perfection, a foreign order may
employ the manufacturers for six months; now, the
some work could be executed in as many weeks.
Advantage had been taken of the temporary decline
of trade to instil the most mischievous principles
into the minds of these poor people, and artfully
to divert their minds from the real cause of their
distress. These demagogues attacked ail the
parties in the state—they inveighed alike against
the Government and the Opposition, and created at
length a deep-rooted hostility among parts of the
community. It was precisely in this way that the
riots in 1780 were created. The person who con-
ducted them, in addition to the influence of reli-
gious fanaticism, prepared the popular mind by the
same means that were lately abroad. He inveighed
against every party in the Government and in Perlis-
tnetit ; lie assembled immense multitudes of people
from► all quarters, and arranged them in marching or-
der with banners. In the A pril of 1780,thesemeetings
►were convened. in June they approached the walls
of Parliament, and treated its Members with dis-
respect and violence, and in a few days afterwards
the metropolis was or► fire in different quarters. On
that disgraceful occasion, for the want of checking
these tneetings it) time, for the want of preventive
laws, such us those now proposed, the constituted
authorities were compelled to resort to direct mili-
tary force to protect the peaceable inhabitants of
London. The Noble Lord then proceeded to enu-
merate the details of the Bill, and to explain that
none of them, under any circumstances, affected
meetings to be held within door., or inter-
fered with county meetings, when called in
the manner lie had already described. With
respect to the state of Ireland, he was mat
happy to hear such testimony borne to the excel-
lent conduct of that intere►ting people, to the
exemplary manner in which they endured their
distresses : such conduct entitled them to the high-
est praise, and would ever. he trusted, be remem-
bered to their eternal honour, and with the
gratitude or their country. But was this most
laudable repose of Ireland a reason why Par-
liament should not afford her the benefit of
those protective measures which other parts of the
empire so unfortunately required ? The same
reason would create a number of other excel).
thins. Cornwall and Devonshire were calm and un-
disturbed ; but was that a reason why they should
be exempted from the operation of the Bill ?
—(!fear. /pear.)—He thought nut, for the evil to
be guarded against was of that nature, that if
merely attempted to be cooped up in one spot,
there would he a liability to its escape into some
other ; so that the measures, instead of Whig
tegral and general to put down the evil. would be
always fluctuating, and required to watch and fol-
low it hour place to place. He thought therefore
the only safe course was to legislate at once fur the
whole of the empire, and so to frame the protec.
ton as to ensure the quiet of every portion of his
Majraty's loyal and peaceable aubjects.—(Year.)....
1.11111 Bill, when so applied, would, lie was per.
suaded, deter the disaffected from pursuing their
scl►euaes ; it would prevent itinerant orators from
_editing to the (lustre*, which unfortunately prevail-
ed in parts of the manufacturing districts. by taking
the population every day they pleased from what-
ever work was open to them ; it would prevent the
neces►ity of resorting to military force ; it would
establish the authority of the civil power, and re-
store 'Mugs to a state of quiet and confidence. lf.
Imo-ever, violence again was directed against the
rile and loyal, he hoped the authorities

tions of the country. That the evil
been so long matured would subside in so *hart s
time as some Noble Lords imagined, he hail mu,
serious doubts ; hot so long as it existed they :nue
all ngree in the necessity of confining it to
narrow a sphere as possible. NVltile
was so employed, their attention should be tiro: r
fixed on the most effectual Measures to prevst.l
anarchy, and its inevitable follower, arbitrary
vernment.—(llcar, /sear)—Let them, if
escape that dreadful alternative. Well had it heel,
said, " that the gates of Hell were worse than
[led itself;" mild anarchy was worse than orbits-v
government. It was for these ream's that he w 00..?
aria the law with vigour to preserve eventual:,
liberties of e..e country, and even of
were now instigated to assail thens.—(//ruei
Earl GROSVENOR animadverted owns the sm.
solar reason which was assigned fur ex/coding 1.,..
Bill to Ireland. It was granted, it seemed, as a
boon and • favniir. Was it memo to extend this
favour to the Cape of Good Hope. mid the other
dependencies of the Crown?—was y;;ay to
have the benefit ef this new system of legislation.'
The Ministers congratulated theinselve% nn the
overwhelming mejornie• that supported their inea-
sures. That they land those majorities was en untie.
nimble and lamentable fact. But they should al.n
bear in mind Ora such were not undeniable pronls
of the virtue of their system, for it sometime%
happened that in the course of six months the
same majorities changed sidep, and rejected alt
they had before supported. The allusion to rile
French Revolution was rather, as lie thougla,
infelicitous illsistration of the argument, of mi.
nisters ; for that Revolution, if it skewed soy one
thing more than another, demonstrated the ills
that befel a government determined to uphold itself 1
against the voice of the people, and 'll defiance of
existing abuses. In vain would violence be op-
plied in the hope of erndicating grievances. The
greater the violence, the greater would be in the
end the disaffection. Timely cciicession would
have prevented the French Revolution, and timely
concession would be now a better remedy for the
grievances that unhappily subsisted in this country,
than the application of the strong arm of coercion.
The Noble Earl then denied the doctrine that the
gentry and freeholders alone were constitutionally
competent to call county meetings. Ware not the
great bulk of the people, he would ask, to he
heard, whenever they laboured unskr distresses
and grievances ? If Poch a principle Were once
to be admitted. the people would have no
melons of redressing their wrongs, the whole right
of petition would be frittered away, and only made
oubservient to the framing perhaps of a few loyal
addresses. He readily concurred in the necessity
of avoiding the rock of democracy, hut there was
another calamity toot the less dangerous, agatiot
which they ought to guard the :irate, namely,
from sinking in the vortex of arbitrary power.
He had the strongest objections against the main-
tenance in a time of peace of so large a standing
army as now pressed upon the country. The vo-
lunteer system rendered so large a force unneces-
tory. The volunteers were surely efficient, when
one troop could almost in an instant disperse the
immense multitude assembled at Manchester on the
16th of August. He was • friend to regulation,
but not to coercion ; he could not, therefore,
give his support to measures which endangered
the liberty of the press and the right of petition.—
He did not believe that there was any disposition
prevalent among the people to overthiow the con-
stitution ; he saw proofs of the contrary in the be-
haviour of the people. He would establish his
assertion by reference to the cases most frequently
quoted. In the trials of Mr. Hone, the juries
thought they saw the workings of a political pur-
pose in his prosecution, and acquitted him; but
in Carlile's case, as the crime was palpable, the
jury gave a verdict which satisfied all good men in
the kingdom. What had been the effect of that
vile trick of bringing over the hones of Paine ?
Why, universal disgust or ridicule. There was
certainly, among the decent part of the people, a
wish for some kind of change, and that opinion was
chiefly encouraged by the distresses of commerce ;
they had from general calamity been led to
suppose, that • popular representation, by inter-
posing in time, would be able to check that
expenditure which had nearly annihilated the
country. The present danger had been increased
by what had taken place in Manchester on the
16th August, and subsequently. He maintained,
and offered to prove, that Newlin had not used any
effort to enter the crowd before he called for the
assistance of the military. His Lordship then ran
into a strain of happy ridicule of the means which
had been taken to augment the alarm ;
them lie considered the late Lord Mayor's ploi
and the declarations of loyal meetings. He '
metaled the present measures, as they tatti!

disgraced many principles and p.actices of our

conStitution. hitherto held sacred. He

them as the more suspicious and objectionable,
cause they came from a Ministry who were in in)
macy with the Court of Spain, fo- the head
. .

which his Lordship expressed his dislike in
terms. His Lordship enumerated several
tionable measures of Administration. both in

home and foreign policy. He pathetical'
melded the condition of the labouring
the disastrous iircessity which compel
to seek support in other countries. Here

ship quoted the well-known sentiments
Mined in 7he Deserted Tillage, and warned
Lord hips of the danger of encountering
threatened in those lines of it—

" Bat a bold peasastry, their country's pride,
Wises owe destroyed, eau *ever be 'applied.
His Lordship concluded • long and
speech by objecting to the motion.
The Duke of ATHOL explained.
The Earl of W ESTMORLAND maintained, that.
whereas the Riot Act was no innovation. but merely
confirmed the old law as enacted under Henry IV.
nod confirmed under Henry VI. so the Bill
then before the Howe was a sort of emendation of
the Riot Act. as it interposed so as to Fr..
vent riot altogether. He cautioned the Noble
Lords opposite bow they suffered danger in
frighten the capitalists out of the country by
their backwardness in allowing the present mos-
He - for wishing

of Paine ?
There was
people, a
opinion was
:ommerce ;
en led to
by inter-
check that
Mated the
increased
ter on the
maintained,
i used any
lied e
thenf or tcartlle
p
mans which
n ; among
syor's plot,
s. He le—
i entirely
of our five
considered
onable, be-
mre in inti-
lie head of
;e iu atroag
eral übjec
Dili in their
etically Is
poor, an
tiled theta
! his Lord.
ents con.v
arned their .
ug the evil ti
pride,
,lied."
eloquent
fined, that, if
but ruperiv

. -a • . i
the rui,fidence of even the dissutirlird in Parka- u county was most eSeiliplary. Why then Wad She The Meeting, tun, in Mr. Fox's time. in West- the population every day they pleased from what- then before the House was a sort of emendation of
anent. The Noble Earl corseloded by moving its to be deprived or her rights? Was it because she miaster Hall. were exclusively for the iiihaliiimit I ever work was open to them ;it would prevent the the Riot Act, as it interposed so as to t:re.
an Amendment, that the duration of the Bull was actiii4 in obedience to the laws as they exist. householders of Westmioster. There was nothing necessity of resorting to military force ;it would vent riot altogether. He cautioned the \tilde
should lie limited to the Ist of July. lts22. that cart-sive unasores were to be used towards in the repent Bill to prevent such tarl-til gs from establish the authority of the civil power, and re. Lords opposite how they suffered danger in
Lord Kula had a decided obj•ction to the Bill, her ? Was it because her conduct was such as it t being now called. 'l'ne Lord Lieuirilmo cookd store things to a state of quiet and confidence. If, frighten the capitalists out of the country by
a, it „tarot Oil its own foundation. but he had a ought to be that *he should hive another chant put call a county meeting, so could the Sheriff, the however, violence again was directed against the their backwardness in allowing the present mea-
ly...3ler objection w lien he considered it as part of about her neck ? What was l'arli.iment doiiii7o' ? Casio: leolulurrem, the majority of ii Graffil Jure. peaceable and loyal, he hoped the authorities sum. He saw no reason for wishing a change in
11,. coercive measures of tits Majesty's Ministers. Telling the Peoplcof Ireland, ifyuu now act properly. or any five Magistrates. flow then could it he would put it down with decision and vigour, and • Government, us venerable, and more beneficial
himight forward aat pressed through the House we do nut Wiese it 1 s your jotentiuo to remain Sot said the poptlar right, as it had ever been cousti. not hesitate to employ at once the lull powers in. and glorious than any which had gone before or
saltimut allowing any ioquiry. lii protested against for which re,sosi a e kg,st..te o„ lour good co„duct, ta"„ally t„,,5..d, ads ilifriugv•l upon ? Be- ousted to thins for the maintenance of the instituo etisted with it. He defended Ministers from any
. 1
I
T.
11,4? .„
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