The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1805-04-30 00:00:00

3110(14 to ; the one from the Earl of Buckingham-
shire to Sir Andrew S. Hammond ; and the other
from the Earl of St. Vincent to the same Gentle-
man, in which his Lordship states, that " the whole
of the expence is to be paid by the Treasury ; I do
not, therefore, see any occasion to have it submitted
to the consideration oldie Lords of the Admiralty."
Sir A. HAMMOND then observed, that from
these letters, it was evident the Earl of St. Vincent
was acquainted with the purpose to which this
money was to be applied.
Mr. GREY said, from the very great respeilt
which he had for the Noble Earl, and which he
should ever entertain, he felt himself called upon to
state what came within his own knowledge ; it ap-
peared, from these letters, that the Earl of St. Vin-
cent had declared the expence was to be defrayed by
the Treasury ; he assured the House that he had his
Lordship's own authority, who said he would sooner
resign his office, or, to usehis own expression, he
would sooner put his hand into the fire, than ap-
propriate the money belonging to the service of the
Navy to any other purpose whatever.
Sir A. HAMMOND observed, there was no-
thing in those papers to that purpose.
Mr. GRE.Y replied, it appeared that those papers
were not proved.
Mr. SULLIVAN said, that the Earl of St. Vin-
cent was thoroughly acquainted with the whole of
the business, for the secrecy and expaditinn of which
he had directed Sir A. Hammond to take the niat-
ter under his own particular direetion ; IL. (Mr.
Sullivan) explained the nature of the Navy Bill, to
his Lordship, and the manner of paying Clem; and
his Lordship informed him, that the money would
be paid into the bank of Messrs. Hanamersleys, to
answer the purposes of secret service ; he, there-
fore, disavowed the idea of the F.arl of St. Vincent
having denied any knowledge of the transaction at
that pat ticialar time.
Mr VANSITFART thought he could throw
some light upon the subjed : the Earl of Sr. Vin-
/cent always expressed an unwillingness that the
money belonging to the Naval Services should be
appropriated to any other purpose. He considered
the explanation of his Right Hon; Friend pettedly
satisfactory; and, with resped to the Hots. Baronet
himself, he was convineed the documents which
then lay upon the table, completely proved that any
charge which had been brought against the lion.
Baronet was wholly void of foundation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
pressed great satisfaftiena at the papers having been
read ; he was satisfied it had been right to have
these papers read; for a general opinion had pre-
vailed, and the natural p ejadice was, that Sir A.
Hammond had issued money for services which he
did not know any thing about. The case, however,
turned out to be mosey issued frr a service unpro-
vided fur, if not paid oat if the Naval money.
Mr. FOX asked, wheoler it were possible that the
Earl of St.Viocent should know nothing of the Stone
Expedition? or was it possible he would suffer motley
to be issued, and an expedition to go on which he
did not approve of? Some Gentlemen had said that
his Hon. Friend (Mr. Grey-) iatended to stifle the
business, and prevent further investigation, by the
motion which lie proposed. The titles of those pa-
pers had been read, without any koowledge of their
conteios, and the Hon. Gentleman had grouoded
his totalities urns that which was found to he false.
tlis Hon. Friend and himself did surmise, that if
..,use pipers were requisite, other papers also might
be equally requisite; for which reason he wished
the order sbosld be expunged. But he would put
the point fairly to the issue, and let the Noble Earl
himself be personally examined, who had already
Oven so clear and explicit evidence upon the sub-
Jed. With resped to the Hon. Baronet, there cer-
tainly must have been some inaccuracy in the
transaflion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re-
plied, he could not see on what principle the erder
was to be rescinded, unless for the purpose of
stilling the business. Ile desired, therefore, in or-
der to elucidate the snbjad, that the question, put
by the Commissioners to the Noble Earl, should
be again read.
The Clerk of the House then read the question
ready as follows:
With respect to the 14,0J01. advanced by the Navy !.)
Mr sut, lialninersteys, between the 18th of February and Oa
It Ist of ti!rril. 1604, ftn• Secret Services, had the Tre.uutcr any
bowls* of any such Secret Service for which such motley
had been 1" (A rev kw!)
Moser. Know.; of no Secret Smite for which any
nit.sey was issued. (Another try Afar! attar I hear !)
Mr. PITT then asked, what was the real sense
in which this answer was to be taken? and what
could then be the objed of expunging the order ?
The Hon. Baronet it least should have an opportu-
nity of explaining himself to the i louse.
Mr. GREY considered the observations of the
Right Hon. Gentleman were a wilful misrepresen-
tation of the fag (4 load cry of het.r ! hey!
order ! order ! Chair ! Chair ! eras re-echoed front all
when
interfered. He observed that
• use of by the Hon. Member
House.
. regretted, that he should say any
could • • the disapprobation of the
of the Right Honourable
him the expression ; it was
St i Ile enquiry upon any subjed
t would hate been but candid
Gentleman to state what his
; to rescind the order were when
iisertion. He considered it had
eyed ; a letter had been moved
ot inclosures, and it did not ap-
inclostrres were. For these reasons
sang! the order, and he appealed to
9entleman himself, he appealed to
papers ennved-kir in such
some furthest explanation ?
could it be *ill , that his
enquiry ?
that Jet his representation of
y. he still persisted in it, and
the ohjed ef the Honourable
k enquiry.
said, the Earl of St. Vincent
sedition, and did allow the
naval service to be appro.

words in explanation.
that the question was dis.

tinftly !elating to the Ulm of 14,0001. advanced
from the navy to Messrs. Hammetsleys, for secret
service.
Sii CHARLES POLE explained.
Mr. HORHOUSE wished that the papers should
be printed for the perusal of the members ; much
had been said upon the subjet, a vast deal of heat
and clamour, of crianination and recrimination, and
other arguments had been made use of on both
sides ; but he did not hear on: argument which
could shew any reason why those papers ought not
to be printed; he knew of no evil which could arise,
or any mischief which would result from it. He
had a high respell for the talents of Earl St. Vincent,
in the administration of naval affairs ; he knew no-
thing of the transaCtion, and was peril-City content-
ed with the explanation which bad been given; he
trusted therefore that no distention would take place
on the subjen, and that the papers would be printed
without further opposition.
Admiral MA RKHANI said, that Earl St. Vin-
cent, Sir Thomas Troubridge, and himself; had per-
feft knowledge of the transaaion ; he recollefted
mentioning the subset tohis Lordship, and observed
at the same time with how little secresy it was
conduCted ; it was publicly known and talked of
from one end of the river to the other, and they
were all of opinion it could not succeed, to which
observations his Lordship replied, " You and I have
nothing to do with it, the Treasury pays for all."
Lord DTJNLO wished to know whether the ques-
tions put to Earl St. Vincent by the Commissioners
of Naval Inquiry had been written down or not
Sir C. POLE replied, that the questions were
merely written down to refresh his Lordship's me-
mory, but not regularly entered.
The ATTORNEY GENiJtAL thought all the
misunderstanding which had arisen hi the course of
the debate, proceeded from the manner in which the
Commissioners had put the questions, which were
completely confused, and became quite unintelli-
gible to answer. (4 cry of no ! no! no!)
Mr. WA RO said, Earl St. Vincent knew very
well that such an expedition was going forward.
His Lordship was perfedly cognisant of the Comp-
' troller of the Navy's having issued money for that ,
purpose, which appeared evident from the letter of
the Noble Earl himself to Sir A. Hammond.

General GASCOIGNE made rune short obser-
vations, when the question WAS loudly called for.
The SPEAKER then put the question : That
the Papers be priu!ed, which vius carried without a
division

Mr. KINNAI RD gave notice of his intention to
postpone his motion relative to Sir Home Popham,
which had been fixed for the 7th of May, to the 15th.
Mr. STURGES BOURNE observed, that a gal-
lant and meritorious officer had been prevented from
doing his duty in the service of his King and Court-
tr., by this business, and he wished the Hon. Gent.
would not give it asy further delay.
Sir. KlNNr'sl RD replied, that it was by no means
his wish to give the subject a moment's delay, bat
several necessary papers we.e still to be printed,
and ho was unavoidably obliged to postpone it.
Sir HOME POPHAM said, that he had been
now upwards of three years labouring under an op.
probrium which he did not deserve ; at that time
he might have been tried by Court Martial, and
either condemned or. acquitted; but be has sow,
been detained so long a time without coming to any
decision upon the subjeft ; it was a very hard case
upon him he most anxiously courted the investi-
gation, and he did not expect the lion. Gentleman
w.iuld have put off his motion one moment after
the 7th of Mat ; his ship had gone to sea without
bins, and he fel extremely disappointed that any
further delay should take place
Mr. K INNAI,J), in explanation, again declared,
the delay had occurred in the printing some papers
which were esse:zial for their consid, ration, and
he could not, in justice to the house. bring forward
the business till those papers were ready.
Sir HOME POPH NI replied, that he under-
stood they had been printed and delivered before the
holidays . .

Mr. KINNAIRD said they might he printed and
delivere.!, but he could not bring torward his motion
till after the holidays..
Sir WILLIAM BURROWES wished the mo-
tion should stand as it originally was ; and,
Mr. KINNAIRD repeated his reasons for post-
poning it.
The question, therefore, stands over for the 15th
of May.
Lord A. HA‘IIr.TONI gave notice that he
would, on Thursday se'nnight, move the House that
the Petitions relating to the Corn Bill should betaken
into consideration.

Lord HENAY PETTY gave notice that he
would on Wednesday next move that several Papers
relative to the Civil List of Scotland, hut mo•e par-
ticularly those relating to the warrants issued by
the Barons of the Exchequer of that country, should
be Laid before the House.

COMMISSif ,N OF NAVAL ENQUIRY.
The CIIANCELLOR of the hiX(IIEQUEII
rose, in pursuance of the notice he had given, to
move for leave to bring in a Bill for continuing for
a limited time the powers granted by Ad of Parlia-
ment to the Commissioners appointed to enquire
into naval abuses. Though he could not in his con-
science approve of all the ads of these Commis-
sioners, he observed that in the progress of their
investigations they had brought to light matters of
such serious and essential interest to the concerns of.
the public, that the pursuit of their enquiries Ap-
peared it: be most highly necessary. The Bill, be
said:would be exaftly a continuation of the former
Ad, to which he should not offer any alteration.
Mr. WHITBRg AD thought it rather inauspi-
cious that the Right 'Hon. Gentleman, in this early
stage, should introduce his motion with casting a
slur upon the conduct of the Naval Commissioners,
at the 'moment that the public voice and opinion
exempted theirs from the smallest share of disappro-
bation. The only objedionable point which struck
him in the constitution of the Commission was, that
it was not possessed of powers adequate to its ob-
jell. Delinquents were enabled hitherto to brave
its authcirity, and refuse to answer questions which
they 'conceived might tend to criminate themselves.
If, in the course of their proceedings. they had done
any thing which was deserving of reproach, the
Rt. lion. Gent. would have dons better to propose
a vote of censure on them, for the three or tour,
points in viai.l he differed from them in oin.non.

. . 4. • ---•4111■14

than to continue their powers while he condemned
their conduit. For his part he wished the Commission
to passes: ertheordinary powers, and that it should
not rest with the person examined, whether or not
he should answer any questions that it might be
thought necessary to propose to him. To conic at
the truth, and obtain a thorough knowledge of whet
was the objet of inquiry, was not attainable with
the restridion new in the AI ; and as he was desi-
rous that there should be no prereflion ag that an-
swers being given, he moved as an amendment to the
motion, that after the word " continue," the 'fords
" and amend," may be added, as that would give a
greeter latitude for the arrangements.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUE'.I
replied, that when a Member moved for the con-
tinuation of a Commission, the good services of
which no mart could deny, he could not be debarred
of that liberty of speech which was allowed on all
other occasions. In exercising that right, he WAS
at liberty to erpress his opinion of the condun of the
Commissioners on some patticular points, and could
not disguise that he could not altogether approve of
it. He wished them to retain the powers they al-
ready possessed, and if further powers were thought
necessary, he conceived the proper method WAS not
taken in this amendment, as the objet might he
better attained by a specific motion, or by instruc-
tions moved for to the Committee. He wished to
have every full explanation given in the progress of
these enquiries; butt he would not disguise, that he
felt the utmost reladaitee to trespass, in any way,
upon the sacred and constitutional rule which pre-
vailed in every Court, of not obliging any examinant
to disclose matter which may tend to criminate him -
self. It was that sort of innovation, which he could
never countenance ; and if the House would allow
the Bill to be brought in, there was a variety of
stages in which that point may be discussed.
- Mr. FOX thought it very extraordinary and un-
precedented in the annals of Parliament, that a Mo.
non for continuing a commission of this kind should
be introduced in the language of disapprobation.
Such an opinion must be an impediment to the scope
of their transadions. If they had misconducted
themselves, their Commission should not be re-
newed ; hut, at all events, this WAS not the proper
opportunity of stating any errors, supposing them
to exist. If they were wrong why not speak out
boldly ? The Minister, on the other hand, seemed to
Jtrt hint a fault, and hesitate dislike,
Willing to wouiail, but ye! afraid to strike."
'Was this a time to find fault ? Was it right to place
men in stsch.sacred situations, and at the same time
cast an obloquy upon them ? He was in favour of
the Amendment, because he did not think that
by the Order as now moved, the House should
cramp itself in the mode of its proceedings. He de-
dared that no admiration of the result of that•Conie
mission, whatever pride he might tale in the resat
it had produced. neither these nor any other consi-
derations should ever induce him to trench on the
sacred privileges of Englishmen, never to be obliged
to criminate themselves. He wished every man
examined to have the full protection of that este.
hlished principle; bat he must contend, that no man
high in office should do otherwise than &counte-
nance and dismiss any person who should avail him-
self of that plea. It may not, perhaps, be advise-
eble to,presecnie awl] persons always in a court of
law, but that was »o reason why they should not be
dismissed from office. A Nobleman, or any other
of great fortune, might entrust the management of
his affeirs to a steward or a footman ; but if that see-
' vent refused to answer for his conduct, would any
min continue to trust him and keep him in his ser-
vice afterwards ? It was the ditty of every servant
to give his master a fair and faithful account of his
affairs, and it must be allowed to be a breach of duty
to do otherwise, whether it regarded private or pub-
lic expenditure. That being clearly understood, he
would allow every man his natural ngbt of not cri-
minating himself ; but while the Administration was
in such a monstrous state, that the servants of Go-
vernment consider this Commission as hostile to
them, the House of Commons should view it as the
Representative of the public. The Commission
must be, in a great measure, nugatory, if all the evi-
dence were to speak in the manner of Mark Sprott—
' That he wasnot bound to make any answer.' Upon
the whole, he thought the Amendment a very pro-
per one, as no alteration could be made according
to the words of the present Motion.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL observed, that
as the Motion now proposed was only for a Bill, in
this advanced state of the Session, to continue the
powers of the Commission, the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Whitbread) would have an opportunity, by
private communication with his Right Hon. Friend
(Mr. Pitt), to obtain his objed, if it should be
thought adviseable ; and, at all events, he might
have an opportunity of moving it in the Hoes-.
by an instruction to the Committee, for which rte.,
son he thonelit the Amendment unnecessary.
Mr. SHERIDAN said he could see no great pro.
bahility of any confidential communication between
his friend (Hr. Whitbread) and the present Minister,
and much less could he expect that any such private
communication could lead to any kind of convic-
tion. When the Right Hon. Gentleman took upon
him to express his disapprobation of what the Corn-
missione:s had done, it was incumbent on him to
prove their unbecoming conduct. They complained
that their powers were so defective, that they could
not oblige persons to answer, and certainly it did
not appear from any of their reports or proceedings
that self-crimination was the order of the day. The
Minister would be quite at a loss to vindirate his
consistency on this occasion. In the year 1735, a
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Burke), now no more,
instituted a Commission of Enquiry with unlimited
powers, against which the present Minister made an
ineffedual opposition, and the very Mr. Trotter, of
whom so much had been lately said, was one of the
persons examined before that commission, without
being able to screen himself, under the plea of self-
accusation. With regard to the conduct of the pre-
sent Commissioners, his opinion of ;.hem was inch,
that on the day after to-morrow, he meant to move
the thanks of the House to them, and as he thought
their conduct deserving of the highest Approbation,
the Right Hon. Gentleman would find himself
under the necessity, should he oppose it, of giving.
what he had not yet done, his reasons for expressing
his auepprobation.
Mr. ROSe said, that be was always a friend to
enquiry since he had a seat in Parliament, and de-
ied any Uentlernan to contradict tini in it. To this

i~:~ . .

4.. . .

vir ~.. , • ...

6/. parts of the Howe), when
st
The SPEAKER inter
:1 Ate expressions made use
could not exist in that H
Mr. GREY regretted
thing which could meet
I 3 Chair, but the language
Gentleman drew from it
not his disposition to still
in that House, and it wry
in the Right Hon. Gen
motives for wishing to rs
he made such an a.sertior
lw..en improperly moved ;
• for with a number of inch
pear what these inclose
11,. wished to expunge die
th,.. Right Hon. Gtntlenx
the House, whether any
a way, should not have
r.ti Wt what justice then, c
intention was to stifle the
Mr. PIT f replied, the
t
the fad he what it may. I
he certainly considered th
Ge:oleman was to stifle c
• Sir CHAS. POLE sai
knew of the stone-expe,
• money belonging to the r
priated to that purpose.
Mr. PITT said a' few
FuX considered