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London, England, 1825-02-26 00:00:00

of blaming Hercules?" So it was with the ejects of the Hon.
Castleman's panegyric. They required not his commendation.
No else accused them ; and he could not avoid repeating that it
could only he intended to cast an imputation upon others.
Air. S. RIVE denied that it had Leen his intention to coat any
imputation upon the Hon. Cent.% ictegrity ; his only °bite. was, to
peon from the Fien. Gent's declared sentiments chat there Lad teen
wealue acts of violence committed against the poor ausi the de fence less.
7.olige. The question eras pot—whether justice was admipistereel between
Protestant and Catholic ? he did net coosider it necessary at preeent
me ester aponthe discussion of this question ; but hi t position was,
deo die Wartime, of Ireland. as at present coosiltuted, vats act in
a fit situation to be intrusted with the meek* and inordinate powers
with whisk they were invested by this Act. He had beard bathing
Soo Haat* side, which could induce him to alter his opitlion on
title limmiom
Mr. AjlfAßl,Nte feared that the llonourable Gentleman oppo-
site (IdrThightmtiliwould consider him presumptuous in doubting'
Ilia memiieds we in the manner in which justice was administered
le Mama • Considering the state a irritation which confessedly
golfed, sod tie violence orplielirg, he thought the impartial
. administration of justice was isii . ht in Ireland. However able
sad Meet the Law 'Officers :Crown might be. they alone
we* sot estmerned Mitt adminilesarion ; and be repeated, that
keewlehohandirg the ability se4 ineegrity of the Law Offices, jus-
einoesioldalallh adatinistered is Inland. Honourable Gentlemen
mod entembie the Alanchestd 'fiat, when the Coroner's Courts,
lite kwood of wet Courts, could act come to a fair decision, and were
tingered mtim loeffielent from the inenence of pasty feeling. In
=of the rims, at the fullers/ of the lateVecen, the efforts
et: come at the mitts by the'midettee 6f tersons'pment, were
gods ineffectual la consequence of the irritabstior of.party fbefulg.
Me dodged whether Impernaljestiee could have been administered
is few of the late VIM of protecutiotity the Attorney-General of
kodoad. Be thought it impossible it could have'been *anti-
' sistsrod,ia the case of the riot at She üblin Theatre, considering
the violates of party feeling in Ireland at that period. Tile great
abjectien teem mestere% of , Ministers with respect to Ireland was,
that they bombe down coercive manure, tei restrain. but rot
silly. Their duty wail to give Wto rit& their Sovereign; but .
feelstead of thise they only brought down coercive Bilk coo y
illigeChlal When M misters brought the measure now undordis.
cession, they confessed it w'as a matter of necessity. There was
truly one question, the decision upon which; could ensure the peace
east kanquillity of Ireland. Be did not know how Ministers coald
rechneile their conduct on this question, with their oaths as Privy
Comacillots. Their wee seven Members of the Council at one side
and ids at the other. They were bound by their oaths as Privy
vooo:filers to give conscientious advice to his Majesty. Instead
iaf this, they neglect altogether advising upon the only question,
which can reconcile parties in Ireland. In foreign countries there
was a total absence of all religious distinctions ; religious dietinc-
Mons had been doe away in Holland. The necessity of abolishing
religiose distinctions in Ireland seemed so self-evident, that he
wondered how the commonest understanding, acting honestly,
weld doubt it. While a real grievance, like that of ilk Penal
Laws, existed in Ireland, every thing mischievous and disaffected
:enacted around it. He could never support a memere like the
present, which was admitted to be a temporary expedient, and ac.
lenowledged to be ineffectual for securing the permanent peace and'
tranquillity of Ireland.
Mr. W. COUBTENAY said, he had always voted in favour of
Me Catholic Claims, and in some degree acquiesced with the peti. I
Miura, Om dye decision of this question was necessary for the
pease of IMls ed. He did not support the Bill upon the individual
saw obi* had been mentioned, neither did he support it on the
rounds of what he was told the Catholic Association bad done,
h se he supported it from the conviction that the existence of any
each Association was incompatible with the security and tranquil-
hty of Ireland. Other associations would spring up if the Catholic
Association was permitted to exist. The lion. Gentleman (Mr.
Hering) said that a was impossible justice could he fairly adminis-
tered in Ireland ; but he (Mr. Courtenay) would ask, could any
men think that justice could be more advantageously administered
who Associations like the Catholic Association existed 1 If no
step should be taken to put it down, the whole population
would connect themselves either with Orange Associations or
Catholic. Associations. Jurors and Magistrates must belong
to one party or the other; and by such a connection they
would become unfit for the Impartial execution of such duties. He
sepported the present Bill, therefore, because he considered that the
existence pf any Association, commanding such resources, and es-'
ercising such an influence as the Catholic Association did, must be
injurious to the peace and tranquillity of Ireland. He could not
eh down without observing, that since the Bill was proposed, he had
held some conscientious doubs whether he ought to support it.
The claim which created these doubts, was that which empowered
sole Magistrate to act, and he had the pleasure of mating that his
Right Honourable Friend had pledged hmself to amend this objec-
tionable clause. (Hear, hear.) The Bill, therefore, should have
h:s most cordial support.
Mr. SYKES thought that the evil complained of might be
punished by the existing laws. Money collected in churches or
taverns, for purposes not legal, might be punished by the common
law. And why pressed to enact a new law, when those which
exiet were sufficient ? Though the Cabinet might be at sixes end
soeens or. the Catholic Question, he did not suppose they were at
sixes and invens oo the law. The history of Ireland was a history
of penal enactment' ; under those circumstances he could not con-
scientiously tuppott the Bill, which he thought most objectionable
la principle.
Sir J. „NEW PORT entertained the highest respect for the parity
et die Moomwebie Member for Exeter (Mr. Courknap) modem
in tametim the BilL That Idoocumble Member, however, hod
crii he mid that the Catholic Association would give
birth to Orange Associations. Orange Associations existed before
the Catholic Asociation was thought of. They had been de.
IriKlated in that House, yet they were suffered to remain, and from
their existence the Catholic Association had grown: it owed its
origin to the errors of the Government. The Honourable Member
for New Ross (Mr. Dogherty) had advocated the administration of
jostice in Ireland. Ile had quoted caeca where justice war impar-
tially administered in the superior Courts: these were insulated
uses; but it was notorious, that in a hundred instances, the poor
and the o_ppressed had not the power of appealing to a superior
Court. There was high authority for saying, that the Magistrates
may not be trusted with the administration of the law,. The
'power of deciding upon Grand Jury levies, had been taken from
them, end the Goveniment had established the system of Petty
Sessions.' Were not these proofs that the Magistrates had
used improperly and partially the powers with which they
had been invested ? Lord Redemisle had said, when in Ire-
fend, " that there was one law for the rich and another for the
peso:, and that both were equally bad." The Catholic Associa.
two had done much good by furnishing the poor with means to
enable them to go before the superior tribunals for justice.
great benefit had been derived too from the apprehension of ex-
posure, which was general amongst corrupt Magistrates since the
Catholic Association began to interfere for the poor. The Hon.
Baru:et here produzed a letter., which he stated to have conic
trom a most respectable Protestant gentleman hi the county of
Waterford. Ile would read this letter with the permission of the
H.n.se. (Heare) The Hon. Bart. then read the letter, in which the
writer strongly declare his cp:nion that the Catholic Association
pomeseed the confidence of the Catholic Body, and that the tran-
oodiity of the country would be at an end, if :t should he put down.
No roan was more competent than the writer of that letter to form
opinion on that subiect. He (Sir J. Newport) was not now dis-
posed to give his name, but he was sure that his judgment had
been correct. The House was now about to pass tee Bill which
had Leen so often canvassed ; but ri disposition had been that night
shown, and that night for the first time, to moderate that Bill in
some slight degree; for this mcderstion the country 'meld be
principally iodebted to the Hcmourable Member for Limerick (Mr.
S Rice).
Mr. GOULBURN said, he would not trespass to any extent on
tl.e. time of the House, but he thought it indispensabiy necessary to
make a few *beet vatiuns in lolly to the objections that had been
on that night, and many of then, on that night only, urged sgainst
rise BilL It was due to the absent persons who had been attacked
to the costae of the debate, that he should avail himself of this op.
pommel:ye the last that woold offer, to make some remarks, for the
porpose of placing them, in the opinions of the House, where they
sought to stand. He would begin with the observations of the
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir John Newport), who had said, that
although the Government were making exertions to destroy the (le-
-11.046 Associvinn, are attempt had been made to put down the
Ocarge Associations. He (Mr. Ootriburn) in the meat unqualified
manner denied this. Be would all the attention of the House to the
Ace:: of !TA which were directly I. veiled against the Orange As.
sociations, and were intended to sole at their very root. But he
uovld also call the attontion of the House to a very material differ-
s= hetweea the Orange end the Cptholic AlleeeiVani. The former
navel. attempted to interfere, es the letter had done, with the ad.
miaistration of justice—theo had never been charged with the acts
which bad been charged ageowt the Roman Catholic Association—
they had never endeevoured to inflnence the administration of just-
ti.x oo subjects of which they might have had cause of complaint.
the Hon. Baronet bed also told the Howie that the people of Ire-
land were rot able to procure justice. If he meant that the poor
could nut procure justice from the rich because of the laws, this lie
(Mr. Ooulburn) 'mold distinctly deny ; but if the Hon. Baronet
✓eam merely that the poor indiridual laboured under difficulties
in caltra-distincelon to the rich, though this point might be admit-
ted as a natural consequence., it did not in the least bear upon the
otieeticn. The Hon. Baronet had also said, that the Magistrates
cot Ireland were manifestly bed—test they frequently, in their admi.
Mansion of justice, consulted their own interest's, and their own
Muereeta only. He (Mr. Cloultsurn i would reef to the speech of
the Hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. S. Rice) in contradiction to
this observation of the Hon. Member, and would refer to that speech
to prove that if the Magistrates did not do their duty, there was
always &remedy to be had. Many instances might be quoted in
which the poor had received dame from the rich !Highways.
The Hon. Member for Limerick (Mges r. S. Rice) had that night
stated his objections to the Bill, and stated them for the first time.
lilt mein objection seas to the preamble of the Bill, and he says he
hat not as much confidence in an Irish Act as in an Act of this
country. flow long had this delicacy existed ? Surely not before
Or. Hon. Gellman race down to the House, as he did a few
eights ago, hien with
_precedents from the Jourrals of the Irish Parliament.
Parliament. flow could the Legfelneure of Ireland put aside Aete
which were so necessary to he considered by them ? On the subject
of the Association, he (Mr. bioulburn) would allude to whet had
bra said by en eminent Irishman, Mr. Hardy. That gentleman
had described it as Injurious in the highest degree, and es tending
to all those evils which it was charged with a tendency to create.
One pbjection of the Hointirable Member for Limerick was a note
whin accompanied the Halo.* mere memorandum in the mnegui.
lie (Mr. Goulburn) would not undertake to answer all objections on
velum like this, for notes mightereep into a Bill, and be merely the
ometructicia whieb those who read it might wish to put upon it, and