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other consideration than *hat was now proposed..
it wis an'offcr which should not be r-jeaed.
The strangers were then ordered• to withdraw.
and a division took place on Sir John Anderson's
Amendment. The numbers were—For the Amend-
inent, 20—Against it. 74—Majority 54.
After some further conversation. and before
strangers were again admitted to the Gallen y, ano-
ther division took place. as we understood ne the
question of calling in the Counsel, on which the
numbers were—For hearing Counsel, 3)—Agaiust
it, GS—Majority. 23.
The Bill, them we understand, was read a second
time, and ordered to he committed.
On our return to the gallery, the House was in
debate on a motion, That there be laid before the
Ilonse a Letter from the Persian Secretary to the
Vizier, dated June 22, 11102, relative to Mr. Paul ;"
which was finally ordered. •!
On the motion of Mr. TM. SMITH, the House
resolved itself into a Committee on the Slave Carry-
ing Bill. Some verbal amendinents were made to
the Bill, the blanks were filled up, and a new clause
was brought up by Mr. Wm. Smith, for limiting
the time of this Bills being in force for two years,
from the end of the present Session, and no longer.
The Report was ordered to he received to-morrow.
Mr. Secretary WINDHAM moved the Order of
the Day fur taking into farther considelation the
Report of the Training Bill.
Viscount CAS MERE A G Ii wished to know whe-
ther this measure would be carried into effea, if
Pailiament should approve of it ? 34 he thought it
w•as material for the House to know, before they pro-
ce:ded with the dissusaion, whether or not it would
be a dead letter en the Statntesßook ?
Mr. Secretary WINDHAM, in answer, said, it
was the first time he had heard a doubt on the sub-
lea; and then moved that the Bill should be recom-
mitted, which ens ordered.
On the question of the House now resolving itself
into the Committee—
Colonel BAG4WELL rose, and said, he thought
the House should pause, before a measure of tried
. and approved merit should he rejected, for inch a
visionary projeft as that at present b•fora them.
The responsibility, of the Right Hun. Proposer, he
considered, was great indeed. 'l-lie eyes of the
people were placed on him from the moment of his
going into office, as it was generally believed, from
the professions he had made, that he %would
bring forward a measure which would give the
greatest possible security to the country; but, instead
of this, he had produced one, which. above all
others, was most inefficient. This was re • the ex-
tent of the evil, as the speeches which the Right
Hoe. Gentleman made, had produced an incslcula-
Lle toed-der, by exciting divisions and differences
among the Volunteers. subversive of all order and re-
gitlarity. But the mountain which bad laboured so
Tong, had at lergth produced an abortion in legisla-
ture, and he did not think it could be called by any
ethsr name, as the Right Hon. Gent. himself had
acknowledged it was an experiment; and certainly
it was 1: re. which could not possibly produce any
good A-ea, though the expence was great. The
Gentleman then asserted, that the only reason
there was for bringing forward this measure, Vas,
because it differed from that which he had so often
Om:Siert be would not say in tedious. hutin
-esesition. With respell to the Bill itself, he
eon • it never c uld he agreeable to the people ;
every man would be subject to martial law, and to
be marched from one part of the country to 2110-
titer, n iless he p I 101.; and he, thei dere, entered
his pose t -peel it.
S:r J. PULTENEY, after taking a general view
of the subjea, :aid, he thought it would have been
better, bad the p:opl. been armed at first, before
the volunteer n.e isure lied been resorted to ; Out.
at all events, he was happy it was now brought
forward. He certainly had the highest resped for
the Volunteers, and he was convinced that they had-
deserved well of their country, but he did not think
them 60 desirable a force, as tzar which was proposed
to be raised under this Bill. 'l here were three points
of view in which this measure could be considered.
The first was, petting men into the regular army
from this force. This was by some considereelltn-
centtitutienel ; but lie, for his part, thought the
necessity of the case demanded it. The second was,
that of appointing Officers by His Majesty, which
he conceived was by far the best mode, as it was
absurd to suppose, that men could be rendered et-
feaual, without the assistance of men of experience.
The last point was the expence ; and he was aware
that the first idea was, that it should be little or
nothing ; but he believed that cad long since been
given up ; and though it was desirable that it should
be as moderate as possible, yet he did not think it
ought to be considered an abjection to the measure,
if rt was great. He then concluded, by giving his
assent to the motion of the Right Honourable Se-
cretary.
alt. SPENCER STANHOPE said. he though;
if the Right Hon. Gentleman intended to keep his
Bill. merely as a Bill upon paper, he might be in-
duced to look at it with some degree of favour, as
a matter of curiosity ; but as a prattles' matter, he
eoold not but view it as the wait obnoxious, the
• most odious the mest oppressive. and the most
intolerable measure that ever any Minister dared to
avow. It is no less than requiring every fourth man
to be raised by a compulsory ballot. The people
bad been told, that if they would volunteer in err-
tam numbers, the Lecy-ra•Mauc should not be
galled out—they had volunteered to the amount of
those numbers—they still continued to volunteer,
even to a much greater amount than this Bill pre-
tends to attempt to raise men; and, beaded by
the 4entlemen of the country, their neighbours
and Intimates, there could be no doubt but they
would long continue to master and enroll them-
selves, and yet this hateful measure is to be resorted
to; and the people compelled to train themselves
for 24 days in the whole. Ile advised the Right
Honourable Gentleman. however, to take care how
be proceeded;—the people of England may be led,
but they will not be driven, and this was driving
Clem with a verge:thee. But what was most extra-
ordinary of all was. that there is no estimate of the
• eapences attending this business; at a shilling a day
for each mar., it would amount to upwards of
200,0001. a "War, which be thought enoimouss and
which must be highly burdensome to the country.
If Ministers had stuck to the volunteers, they might
slave raised as ma=y as they pleased.-4:e asked

also for information, if these-men, dins to be raised
in this compalsory way, were for England only, or
were intended tor every part of the Empire? No
mention whatever was made is the Bill, of either
Ireland or
.Scotland. Was Ireland to be, lett to
hei,elf, and had Scotland no occasion for any addi-

tional force, so tie to be entirely free from this corn-
pulsOry *Measure t From the Bill he could derive
no informatioa on this head. This force, he said,

seal not to be commanded by the landed Gentlemen
of the country. which all levies of this nature had
hitherto been ; and he asked the Right Honourable
Gentleman, if he thought that would males it popu-
lar, and that the people would agree to it, without
grum'sling at least, to use the softest phrase? There
was, he said, every thing in this Bill which the
Right Hon. Gentleman had condemned-Toe the last
three yerrs. There was the ballot. with a heavier
fine than had ever been thought of I;4:fore. and, at
the same time, he could not find out by the Bill, •
which was the Commanding Officer of a company,
the Setjeant or the Constable ; it would be a most
motley assemblage altogether, and a person who
had afted as a Volunteer Captain, might fimil
htm-
self placed in the ranks, between his own footman
and his father's chimney-sweeper: If His Majesty's
Ministers wanted a greater force, they ;night have
it cheerfully and readily, by encouraging the volun-
teen ; but if they attempted to obtain it by com-
pulsory means, they might burn their fingers. He
hoped, therefore. the House would rejetit a measure
that was hateful and expensive in the extreme.
• siy W. MILNER spoke shortly in ta,vour of the
Bill, on. ate .preinii iliac the Volunteers were fail.
in off in their numbors ; and,. therefore. .that it
would be necessary a more numerous description of
persons should be trained to arms. for the purpose
of being taken into eta Regular Army. if necessity
should at any time require-it. •
Viscoant CAS FLEREAGH lamented that the
Rt. Hon. Secretary had net opened his plan to the
House, as, by that mans, they should have been
able to form a mote decisive opinion an it. He did
not, he said, feel inclined to oppose the Speakt,r's
leaving the Chair. or to prevent the hill front going
to a Committee. but he wished to have a fair oppor-
tunity of d:scussing the principle of the bill, which
had ran yet been given. As to the -iiitr.at princi-
ple of the Bill, he felt no great objection to tt,13,-
cause it was nearly the slail as a Bill of a similar
nature. brought forward in a former period, by
his Right Honourable Friend ('sir. Yorke.)-.-
He thought, however, his Right Honourable
Friend's Bill was greatly preerable to the present,
when we considered what was the situation of the

country in 1110 a, and at the present moment, with
respell to the defence and sects, ity of the country. At
that time, the war wa,. only just broken our. and we
had no more than 153.000 men as cmr whole force.
We have n Z 59.000 men, besides volunteers.
He compared the two plans, and said, by that of
his Right Hon. Friend, the supplementary militia
was to be brought in aid of our Regular Army, after
that the Army of Reserve; and if those two mea-
sures failed, they were then to advert to the levy ea
noose. But in the ist9 tur raising the last mention-
eu force, there was a provision, that it the popula-
tion of the country came forward, and volunta-
rily gave such a irumbet, His Majesty was then
impowered to remit the /wee es same. It
was impossible for the Right Hon. Gentleman to
stare that there was an equal pressure on the coun-
try now, as there was then ; and ys t, if the country
furnished s;x times the amount of the militia, His
Naje,ty was solemnly pledged, that this measure
sh, uld rut bi resorted to, and that pledge should
wit- be. forfeited. but on the deepest necessity.
Having stated thus mite]: as a bar to the
measure, as fat less efficient than that of his
Right- Hen. Friend, he apprehended it was no
less objkionable. because of its being far more ex-
pensve. ' His' Right Hon. Friend certainly pi o-
posed,likit ti rise who were liable to be called on by
the prerogative, should he in some sort of organizi-
floe ; so that, in case of need. thi:y might be able to
collect them together, and use them in aid of the
army, towards the defence of the country. Rut
the Right Hon. Gent. by this 15i11; wishes to make
it an officered corps. It was impossible to suppose
twat any landed and independent gentlemen would
consent to be officers of a great mass of people. to-
tally unzeqaainted with the first rudiments of the
profession ef a soldier; they must therefore be offi-
cered from the army, whicla would he attended with
an immense expence; and, in fatt, he did not be-
lieve they could spare officers enough from the army
for that purpose. Only twenty-four days exercise
were to be allowed in the whole, so that the Right
Honourable Gentleman 110 sooner puts them into
a state of drilling, than he disbands them again ;
and that they became less 45cient than those
of his Right Honourable Friend, because they were
more fleeting in their nature. He thought this Rill
was still more objeflionable in a pecuniary point of
view, for the expence will be enormous. In regard
robis Right Hon. Friend's plan, it was expofted
that the people would devote part of their tinie to
learn the use of arms, under the regulations of that
Bill, by devoting so many hours in such days as
they had any leisure, as a kind of security and de-
fence of their own property, in cases of emergency ;
and the only expence that was to be incurred,
was that of persons having their daily bread to
cam by their labour, for which they were to be al-
lowed one shilling a-day for every day they should
be so taken from their labour : whereas, by this
Bill, the Right Hon. Gentleman propose.' to
give one shilling a-day to the 200,000 men to
be so trained, which would be upwards of 200,0001.
a year for a body of men, who, if an Invasion
should take place, could not be led against the
enemy ; and the Rt. Hon. Gentleman ought to take
good care how he disgusts the people with the war,
lest they should become insensible to the cause of
liberty, and to the rights which they have tO defend.
While other nations were getting out of the system
of loose troop,, we were getting into it.—Austria
bad lately begun to form her population into corps,
in imitation of our volunteers.—Bonaparte. when
be drew the great body of his regular army into
Germany, at use commencement of the war just
ended, trusted the defence of France entirely to
volunteer corps. This force of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, be saialt was not an armed peasatry—
nor was it an organised military force—it was no-
thing more than a kind of militia in time of peace,
_an would be foul altogether iitedieicat. If the

Right lion. Gentleman wished for a suoplementary
0 orce, let him raise a Supplementary Militia, and
let the men know what service they are to perfirrna,
and not call on the people to undertake this mo.ley
uncertain service, after such a solemn pledge has
been given to them. The population has raised
the nunshers.mq• lied, and hd insiirm: that it was
as much a breach of faith to carry this Bill j.nto
elk& ih the present state and 'mut ity of the cniantry..
as it would have beta to hive carried into elle& the
Bill of his Right-Honourable Friend. The Right
Honourable Gentleman was now calling oat the
country, in a manner that.would Le exceedingly
onerous to them, more, he feared. to gratify his plea
fondness for speculative plans, than to add any.mil
security to the country. He hoped, therefore, bill-.
Miters wohld take advice, and • not press Toward
this Bill, but if they persisted, he should eeltAinly
oppose it to the utmost of his power.
Colonel BAGWELL'explained. '
Mr. MAT I'HE WS spoke very warmly in favour
of the Volunteers, whose spirited and patriotic efforts
had been so often, ire his opinion, degraded and dis-
graced, by the treatment they had received froin
the Right Hon. Gent)-man, in his speechnin that
House. He was afraid this Bill would give the
finishing stroke Jo the' Volunteers, and that fhcy
would he induced to lay down their arms. They
might then, perhaps, he compelled. some of. them
at leant, to mix themselves wills this motterasse•h-
bfage of the fa ht Honourable Gentleman, bait
where will be " the Promo bran heat" that may re.
'amine the spark which he has extinguished ? It
.never could be. expecileif they would again. come
forward, unless you can suppose them to speak
in the language of due Jew of Venice, and ad.
dress themselves to the Right Hon. Gentleman
thus—
" Fair Sir, you spit'on us on Welatiolay last—.
Yea •pui.l%l u. such a des—amber time
You cs'l'd us thtgs—and for the e onotebies—
We ~if-r 5.,., our humble services ..-..... "
The lion. Gentleman concluded by saying, that if
the voice of Government should prevail on Parlia-
ment to deny the Volunteers the honourable means
to which they were so well ensiled, he feared they
would palsy all their efforts, and du an irreparable
injury to the interests of the country. He would
therefore': to against the Bill.
Sir W. YOUNG said, Bonaparte had made the
French a military nation, and' he feared it would
for a long time be necessary that we should be the
same. -iris was not to be a temporary, bat a per-
manent meastne, and he hoped to see not only the
2u0,000 men to be raised out of this Bill, but also
the thh.),OJO, and afterwards the 1,200,004 nom
out of which they are to be taken, all trained. He
expressed himself to be a warm friend to the mea-
sure.
Mr. WILLIAM SMITH coincided in opinion
with the Hon. Gent. who had last spoken, and
thought that the principal merit of the Bill More
them was, that it was calculated to defend the c.ausi.
try permanently. He had, on the occasion of the
introduerion into that House of the former Leto, en
Mane Ilill, expressed his pet-re& approbation of the
print ple of it; and the Volunteer Bill, which suc-
ceeded it, he had always regarded as less meriting
adoption, on account of theimmense expence which
was to attend its execution, and which must, at no
giett length of time, operate its subversion. ' The
country, he was ready to admit, was saved by the
alacrity r.f the VOldhtters -at the moment of .their
comit.g forward; but he was perfectly convi end
that the *sight Honourable Gentleman (\lr. Patj
now no more, had too much political sagacity to
intend the sytem of their incorporation, for a per-
manent system. The volunteer corps, he was con-
fident, would, if left to themselves, without an
:pigmentation .of those allowanoes which had been
granted to them, dwindle to n-thing: be could not
then conceive why they should be offended at being
apprized of the v,rherneral nature of their constitu-
tion. The sarcasms which hal beat unj essay at-
tributed to have been levelled at them, were di-
rected at the system upon which they were embo-
died; sod he was satisfied, that nothing was more
foreign from the intention of the Right Hon. Secre-
tary (Mr. Windburn), than at any time to have
spoken disreputably f the volunteers themselves.
To the great end of establishing a lasting and sure
force Tot the defence of the country, he thought no
measure could be devised more conducive, than
that of drawing out 2 or 300,000 men to be
drilled for a-year, and then returned to their menu.
failures and employments, whilst others were called
upon to undergo the same training ; and thus, in
time, every man was qualified for the efficient de-
fence of his country. The discharge of a certain
number of disciplined men from the army, would
eminently con lucre to this desirable ohjeet l' it
would be turning them into the country, to be, if
possible. of mare service thati they would be in
the ranks. Ii 10,000 men yearly were discharged,
to bestow their knowledge and example on the ge-
neral levy, the country would in a few years be-
come more imptegnable than any garrison in the
world—would be so in the opinion of all Europe—
aad would mut every man of the regular forces
disposable in any part of the Globe. We should
not then have to blockade an enemy's pert for fear of
invasion ; but, so far from its being an empty boast,
that we wished for an hostile force to make the at-
tempt, it would be a legitimate wish—we should have
four times the number of the most powerful army
that could be landed on our strms, and 'the
enemy wools' utterly relinquish the idea of in-
vading a country, where every man was a soldier.
An Mu. Gentleman had recommended, that, in-
stead of permitting the Volunteer corps to decline
in strength, they should be inspeaed by field ofS-
eers,and such of them disbanded as were found not
in proper discipline. Would it not, however, be
• an infinitely greater cause of discontent to the Vo-
lunteers, to dismiss the greater portion of them,
with the stigma, that atter being three years em-
bodied, they were fit fur nothing else but to be dis-
embodied ? Such was the conciliation proposed by
these whe declaimed against the language and
Icondo& of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wind-
ham). For himself, he thought that the Volunteers
merited the thanks of Parliament for their services,
but that, undo the present system of allowances, it
was inexpedient to continue them. The lion. Gen-
tleman concluded by giving his hearty support to
the Bill. '
Mr. PERCIVAL said. be wished, ere he tote to
'speak, to have waited until a Hight Hon. Gentle-

f.,11737

• -
man (Mr. Ntitedhans)--sbonid4lLTE disclosed his
sentiments; but he had a ions time wait,-? in
vain' • (Hear! bear! from the oppn.ition side or
the House) for the information %hid] he. thought
was due. is &cumin this measure was contrary to
every principle of sotind policy, Mnti Constios muck
liberty, and that it went to i!estrny the public falai
in' Parliament. Ii the loose looked at the loyaltr
and zeal which were nou:isfscd by the Vainteer
system, and the and conspuision- which
would be engendered in the
.bili.beforp• them—
compulsion so repuznant to Or feelings of En-
glishmen—thee cluld decide tsi
which the preferences wasalum, beVolunieer Sys-
tern had eradicated all principles of democracy. ,
and discontent in the country; that the remission
of* might not bring the people 'back to them,
be would gnat to their gond ,sense; but
he was sure that the Right Hon. Gent. would pit
that good sense to a hard trialfiber! Tho
Hon. and Learned Gent. then proceeded to deicant
Von the language of Mr. Windham, as applied to
lunteer Corp, in former debates, and was about
to quote, from a paper in his band, past of that gen-
tienvan't speech on the 4th of August, laud. as ree
ported by a man, whom, he said. Mr. Wha.illana
had himself described as deserving a golden statue.
when,
Mr. PAUL spoke to order, and said, that he had.
upon a former es
.nceasion. been denied the privileges
of reading an extraft frets) a similar report.
The SPEAKER s:sid. :my reference to,
phrases and speeches in furner Debates VMS cer-
tainly irregular.
Mr. PE RCIVAL aid, he bowed to t!lihneethes.
ritv of the Chair, but thought that sums hue ought
to-he draVM with respeft to this restridion, or the
House Might be deptived of the advantafte of re. •
ferring to the sentiments of any great person-for in-
formation, as he did nte. know that they mild bet
acquired, but by a reference to lintorv. Ile -had
been anxious not to misrepresent the 'Right Hon.
Gentleman (slr. Windham).• The case to which
Ina was about to allude, was that wherein that Right
Hon Gentleman took occasion, in speaking of the
Lissy-re-Maim to say. that he considered the
volunicer carps would °prime to the injury of that
Bill, as being a refuge and retreat from it. It Gets.
tlerr.en had any recolleftion of the famous debate
about thanking the volunteers--
- - - .•

Mr. PAUL again called to order. and said that
no opinieri expressed on former occasions ought to
be cited--(a load cry of chair chair ! rbnir !)
tbte SPEAKtR said, he had always understood
it to be irregular to4llude to opinions expressed on
former occasions by Hon. Members ; but the House
well knew, that their striaest rules in that respect
were often disregarded. and therefore he Lad not ,
interrupts ai the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. PAUL was again iasistingeon the irregula-
rity of the Rigln lion. Gentleman. when
Mr. BRAGGEfrose to call the attention of the
House to the respea rich was due to the opinion
of the Chair ; as a young Member, the Hon. Gen-
tleman (Mr. Paul) was perlmei eteurable; but lie
should know, that artless he intended to eon:rovers
the opinion of the Chair, by a division of the
House, there was no appeal.
Mr. PEItCIVAL then pp cceded. Ile
suppose that the Right Hon. &dietary ( Mr. Wind
AJJ
-
ham) had said, that, the Volenteers would bk
a great :epithet, (or
.panic, if they were not 41'
panic themselves, and that a ;Ai:36u, offfeervetweld •
be desirous to :et rid of them, and, in the situation
of a wrestler, to have clear ground.--He wished tw
know, whether the 200,000 inert were to be ailed
our and trained,. even should 300,000 Volonteeek
continue. enrolled? or whether the Volunteeis con.
tinning inforce or not, was to rnska no d'fference
at all in the number of men to be trained ?—:4O
estimate whatever was yet furnished of the ex-
pence of this foie., nor any information what
stuiption cf °dicers His Majesty was to be id-
powered ta appoint over it. The Honourable
Genileman concluded, by expressing his cenvidion,
that if the-Volunteers bad been addressed in a tono
of conciliation, instead of the mauler in which they
had been, and teld that ;bey must 'Attila at a re,
dated etpenee, they would with as ranch readiness ~
have stripped off their lace, and served then
country is an unadorned codt, as they had origi-
nally enrolled themselves.
Mr. B.:TIIURST, at some Length, supported

the Bill.
Mr. Secretary WINDHAM, would not, at that
late hour, and after the able speeches which had
been delivered in support of the measure, a'ouse the
patience of the House, by detaining them May
Mnitti..s. He was much sarprsed, that atter Its
had been so repeatedly reproached for having said
too much in oper.iag his measures, he • WAS now
accused of being too taciturn, and had hardy
expedl to Le eafged to repeat, in every stage,
erust he had advanced in the outset, With
res2ea to the Vaunt:7m, he undoubtedly should
lr..ve been glad to have had them continued, if they
cAuld Le made such as they were originally entchd-
ed to be, namely, mums of better condkion, serving
at their own expence. Hear! Afar!) The Right
Hon: Gent. then briefly noticed the arguments
which had been urged against the bill. bet
without elicitiag any new matter ; and en-
tirely disavowed all the calumnies which he was
alleged to have spoken of the volunteers.
Mr. CANNING intimated his intention to oppose
e Bill, should it, as he anticipated, be unputged
of its objeflit.nable parts in the Committee.
The question was then carried, without a division,
and the Herne having revived itself into a Corn,
mittee, the Chairman reported progress, aucl
mined leave to sit again on Thursday next.
On the motion of Lord HENRY PETTY it
was ordered, that the House should this day resolve
itself into a Cbmmittee, to consider of the salaries to
be allowed to the persons who should be ape
pointed Comcnuioners for auditing the public ac.
counts.
The Report of the Committee for preparing guns•
Bess to be put to Sir James Craig, who was to be
examined as a vr'ness in supoort of the charge
against Nlarqu:s Wellesley, v.:3 brought up. but
alter a long conversatitn, it was agreed. on account 'id
of the lateness of the hour, twat the consideratios
should be po.:pmed until to-morrow.
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