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London, England, 1822-06-15 00:00:00

averwheltiiing necessity?' e (Lord Londonderry) did cot
like the use of the word 0 onsersl," fur be could out couple
the idea of conical or choice with that of necessity. And
he protested agaiast the expression ip this instance. beeline
it seemed to couutenance the notion' of some wonieceieut
neecastsy, which might induce Gent Men to sanction the
spoliation of the property of the pa lie creditor.—(Hen,
bear.)—He considered the right of the public creditor to
his full amount of interest, to be as sacred as that of the,
landed proprietor to hie freehold; and he eoutst no Mere
sanction the spoliation of the one than of the oftiv.r....
The Noble Lord hail expressed his intention to reneSr his
motion for Parliamentary Reform. He hoped the Noble
Lord wbea be did bring it forward would go into the
cussion with that coolness and temper which he hail before
evinced, and which so well became hint. But he thought
the circumstance of the Petition auw before the House
ought to be a caution to the Noble Lord and other Parlia-
mentary Reformers, how they proceeded to break down the
establishes' modes of tepreseutatiou, to let in others which
might have the elrect or lessening the dispassionate judg-
ment and cautions discersimeat of future Parliaments.
Lard J. NUMMI *tier. tied his surprise that the Noble
Lord should so far have misunderstood his meaning as to
the necessity which alone would jestify any departure front
the engagements of Parliameat with the public creditor.—
He had expressly said this he did not mew, such • conve.
miens necessity as the Noble Lord alluded tn, bat that the
necessity of which be spoke eels such as would convince all
the Members of that House alike. for instance, ifs foreiitn
enemy were at the gale., and we had not the means of
rasing money to pay the interest of the debt, and at the
same time to pay the fume necessary to defind the country,
that would he such a necessity as would justify the Vi..latiun
of the public engagements, because the difeuce of the na-
tion was a ditty paramount to every other.
The Marquis-et LONDONDERRY said, what be most
objected to was the auticipation of any necessity that could
justify the withholding payment of the interest Oahe debt.
He objected to the NohLr Lord's use of the term "cameo,"
which implied a deliberate choice, which could not exist
with an imperious and irresistible necessity, which could
alone justify to caecal the oldigatioo. For eveu such a
secessity as the Noble Lord hid described would only an.
Morin the sosprosion or temporary postponement of the
payment, and could not annul the obligatioa, or do away
with it altogether. It was the encouragement of any notion
that a necessity (nit such a proceeding was anticipated, that
he chiefly deprecated. And he did deplore that the met' of
rank at the meetiug did not step forward and resist the
adoptiow of that clause in the Petition, and •indicate them.
selves from the impriation of sanctioniug any proceeding so
unjust and so dishonest as that which was suggested.

Lord J. RUSSELL said he had no objection to retract
his expression of " consent." He never before understood
that she Noble L.srd was a critic of words.--(Much laughter.)
—With respect to the Whig trade., in Kent, he believed
they had been carried away by the feeling of the whole
meeting, which the
the cause of exciting.
Mr. CA LCRA FT, as a freeholder of Kent, must dissent
from the expression of the Noble Lord (3. Russell) as to she
feeling of the whole meeting. If the representatives of the
county, and the other leading men who were present, bad
taken no more pains than he was t►en using to explain to
t►e meeting the nature of the proposition, he was confident
that not fifty re 11,0114 at the meeting would have adopted
it ; but the Gentleman who moved it, who had
favoured the county meetings with his presence, and whom
hr before knew to be a freeholder, would have been de•
sired to mount his horse, and go bark to where be came
from. He was convinced that if he (Mr. Calcraft) had not
been attending his deny iu that Horse, in combating the
Chancellor of the Ibldlsequer upon the salt tax, hut
had been p t at pbis meeting, humble no inclevldusl
as he was, he should have bees able to prevail with the
meeting to reject a proposition so dishonest.—(Hear,
bear, hear.)—He protested, therefore, against such an
apology as had been made for men so honest, so well in-
tentioned, and so well principled as the freeholders of Kent.
When people undertook to manage she business of a public
meeting, they should be prepared for inch emergencies as
that. The sudden nature of the occurrence was no excuse
for not resisting it.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL said, lie did attempt In speak in
opposition to the clause when it was proposed, but he could
not obtain a hearing,

Mr. J. SIIIrH expressed his surprise and regret, that the
clause had not bee,' opposed by some other of the leading
pewit's at the meeting bis,des tbe Noble Lard (Darnley),
whose conduct '4;l him so much honour on that occasion,
for such a measure as that whir h had been proposed must
wanly° the roontry in inevitable ruin.
.. ..

.
Mr. BROLlfiti A 'll mid, that too ohyrts seemed to have
been held in view I. the Noble Lord mid the Hon. BirWirt
opposite (Sir E. liiiatchboll): the one was to east blame ois
the leaders of the 11414 aristocracy.—(" No," from Sir E.
Koatchboll.)—He understood the Hun. Baronet to have ceo.
stored the Whig mriatociacy fur nut °priming the proposition.
—(Sir E. linsiebboll said, he regretted they had nut done
so, but did met
said, he felt regret that they bad not opposed the clause,
which was, though mot quite the same, yet almost as bad as
; for curs ry one knew that there was no more rutting
way of expressing blame than by avowing regret, whereby
one avoided inipsigniug people'. motives, loot coutrived to
attack the soundness of their understandings.—(Laughter.)-e•
The other object, particularly with the Noble Lord (Looduis.
deity), appeared to be to attack the meeting itself, and
through she aides of that meeting to titlark roomy meetings
is general. He rose, therefore, to vindicate bath parties.
The Hon. Baronet asked why the iVhig leaders did not
come forward and smart the torrent of bad nrinciplea which
stranger. were pouring iu upon the meeting. "If they bad
done their duty," mid Ike Hon. Baronet, " they could have
resisted the proposal, nod to their nun-resistance alone it
Oiled its lwest." If that were true then the blame was im-
putable to them alone, and nut to the meeting; but the
Honuoralale Baronet hisnacif had acquitted them of eves that
Mayor, for he admitted that one Noble Lord snore them
did come forward and make a speech against Ike obeiotioos
proposition, and be idso admitted that toe others joined his
ii his opposition.—(thr E. Knatchbull—" Some few.")—
That int loord the leaders, .r course. nod be had received
the iitstiraures of all those Noble persons who were there pre-
sent, that they bad voted against it. So that iti spite of op-
position of the IVhig leaded*—in spite of the speech of one
and the votes of the othcm.againat it, the obaoxioas Resolu-
tios was carried. How absurd then was it to blame the Whi
leaders lie was at a loss to know what his Hon. Friend (Mi.
Calaraft) would hive had them do further. Upon the solemn
assertion aperrona who were present—persimi who had been
accustomed to obserie public meetings, lie roald assure the
lignite that it was the opmion of those persons that the mime
of the meet tog o as decidedly to favour of the proposition; and
on that optimist it was that they acted in limiting their opines
ilium to it. Him own upiniuu was, that if a clear explana.
Iwo had been given of the nature of the pioposiltun it would
sat It ire been ...looted into the body of the petition. He
understood the meat log to have hero execedingly Numerous
and highly respectable, of persona not of one pasty alone, lint
of all !polies; that It wa. nut merely a Whig met tiny, but
attended by malty who were sinsitaehed to any particular
parlyouid Ity a limier somber of perms,: distinctly belougitor
to the party of the Hirouurable Bascom.. No man could
dray that at far as reward the subject of the distress,
sad of Parlianummry Reform, the Petition expressed ihe
deliberate slam of the whole meeting; used the propo.i.
Owe objieted in hayloft berm adopted us so anixrcied
proposal, he did suit blame tin to roe sot irmistiug it.
hut he did thick that it was adopted only Ate the want of
full doicussioo. He protested avows' Ilse essimiasioa which
the Noble Lind wished to establish, that au weight of credit
should be giiess to Petitions from such soettiopre as that, be-
cause an accident of that kind happened. He loped the
people of thus imuotry would eentossue to hold sorb meetings,
IV impress ibeir opinion of the distress of the comm. ,the
Jaeger to which it was exposed, and the tosses to which they
Itstogoird it t and he would say, that even with respect to
such lllNOpeleall.lll, as this, the more they were discuieed
and explained, even fur the sake of public credit, the bet-
ter, and the more toosioced the people world become
that umlaute bat an imerwbelasiag necessity, excluding all
idea of r.weed Or choice, amid justify a breach of faith vita
the public creditor.
Mr. CA Wits% FT said, the Hos. and !Agreed Gentleman
hituaelf had CONIC resod IS the proposition, whiXll be (Me,