The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1825-02-19 00:00:00

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, JAx. le.

NIAGA.
The third reading of the R
Bill " furthA SUFFEerR toERS amend the Act au.
thorising the payment fur property lost, captured, or destroyed by
the enemy, whilst in the service of the United States, and for other
purposes," having taken place, and the question being on its pas.
111:.'r, was, after a further debate which occupied most of the day,
decided its the affirmative... Ayes, la Nays, 69.

PROVINCIAL IRISH BANKS.
Mr. 51-QUEEN presented a petition foe leave to Win in a Bill
fa the establishment of Provindld Books it Jr ' erred to
a Committee.
HUNGERFORD MARKET.
Mr. COURTENAY presented a petition for leave to bring in a
Bill to rebuild Hungerford Market.—Referred to a Committee.
PORTABLE GAS.
Mr. Alderman WOOD presented a petition from the Portable
Gas Company, for incorporating the same.—Referred to a Com-
mittee.
THAMES QUAY.
Col. TRENCH presented a petition, praying fur the reference to
a Committee of a plan for the erection of a Quay along the Thames.
Sir J. YORK begged that his lion. Friend would pause before
he lent himself to a plan such as that recommended in the present
petition. Ile hoped his lion. Friend would not sacrifice his judg-
ment to his taste. No person entertained a higher opinion of his
Hon. Friend than lie did ; he wrote extremely well, few persons
spoke better, and he drew admirably (a laugh); but he trusted
that he would not on this occasion be permitted to draw from the
pockets of the people. (Much laughter.) Before Government gave
its high sanction to the proposed nteasure, due regard should be
had for the property which was situated along the banks
of die Thames. Notwithstanding all the imposing promise of pil-
lars, of arches, of flower gardens, of fruit gardens, of promenades,
&c. the proposed erection would, in his opinion, destroy the
bandy of that noble river which it was intended to improve. (Hear,
hear.) IVith all these, and all the essences of his lion. Friend (a
laugh), it would make that river a receptacle for all the filth of the
metropolis, so as to create a pestilence. Ih'no point of view in which
he regarded the subject could he contemplate it but as a plan most
unnecessary, and injurious even for the purposes which it was in-
tended to promote. (Hear, hear.)
TOBACCO DUTIES.
ESTCOL'RT presented a petition front Devises against the
duty on tobacco.
Lord BELGRAVE presented a similar petition from Chester.
Alderman SMITH presented a petition from the Cordwainers of
the City of London against the House and Window Tax.
COURT OF CHANCERY.
Mr. J. 11l LLIAAIS moved for a return of the number o?bills
disposed of in the Court of Chancery, from the first day of Michael-
mas Term, 1824, to the first day of slichaelmas Term, 182 S, in-
' elusive, distinguishing those whirls were disposed of on hearing
from those which were struck off. He also moved for a return of
the mandatory part of the orders on motions (as we understood),
and whither and to whom the deposits were returned.
Mr. PEEL assented to the first part of the motion, as those pa-
pers were only a continuation of returns, which had been before
granted. lie could wish that the Honourable and Learned Gen-
tleman would give notice of a motion to move fix the latter part of
these papers, as they were new, and had not before been required.
Mr. J. WILLIAMS said, he would take what the Right lion.
Gentleman was inclined to give for the present, and take an occa-
sion of moving for the remainder.
CATHOLIC ASSOCIATION.
Mr. SPRING RICE presented a petition from the inhabitants
of die county and city of Limerick, against the Bill at present in
progress through Parliament, for die suppression of the Catholic
Association. It was numerously and respectably signed, and he
might fairly say, that the sentiments it contained were those of the
whole Catholic population of that district. They stated, that nei-
ther the sets nor intentions of the Catholic Association were such as
to render necessary a restrictive law to suppress them. There was
one part of the petition to which he wished to direct the attention of
the House, as it met a complaint which had been made against the
Association. It had been stated, that the Catholic Association
claimed the merit of having tranquillized the country: they claimed
no such thing ; but they did claim—and they had a right to claim
—credit for having contributed to its tranquillity. (hear, hear.)
They did not exercise the functions of Government, but they ad-
mitted that Government had done much to restore the peace
of the country. The Catholic Association, in the opinion of the
petitioners, and in his (11r. Rice's) opinion also, had greatly aided
the constituted authorities of the land in producing that tranquil
state of things in Ireland. The objects of the Association were
threefold ; Ist, that of exercising the right of petition ; 2dly. that
of procuring a well-ordered system of education for the poor Catho-
lic peasantry of Ireland ; and, :Idly, of procuring a fair and impar-
tial administration of justice for those of their countrymen who
were aggrieved, and who had not the means of procuring jus-
tice. In doing so they disclaimed any intention of-exercising the
privileges of the Attorney-General, or assuming any of the
functions of Government. (Hear, hear.) There was nothing, they
submitted, illegal in the proceedings of the Association, or any
thing that required the enactment of a law to suppress that body.
(Hear, hear.)
Ordered to be printed.
Colonel TRENCH said, he had a petition to present from the
Archdeaconry of Ely, the prayer of which was far different from
that of the last petition. The petitioners complained of the recent
dangerous encroachments on the Constitution. In the second para-
graph of the petition, they expressed themselves to the effect, that
the Catholic Association was hostile to the spirit, and trenched on
the practice of the Constitution. They declared, that the Papists
now, as much as at any previous time, laboured under the moat ab-
ject prostration of intellect to their bigoted clergy. They com-
plained that the Catholics were, and always had been, addicted to
turbulence and rebellion; and the petitioners concluded by again
expressing their alarm at the existence of, and the danger likely to
ensue from, the Catholic Association. The Honourable Gentleman
said, he entirely concurred with the prayer of the petition ; and
would at present not trespass longer on the attention of the House,
than to express again his entire concurrence in the just apprehen-
sion that was entertained of the undue and baneful exercise by this
Association over the people of Ireland.—Ordered to be printed.
Sir J. NEWPORT said he had several petitions to present
against the contemplated Bill to put down the Catholic Associa-
tion. The first which he would have the honour to present was
signed but by a small number, not more than fifty. It came from
one of the most respectable parishes in Dublin, and, though the
' signatures to it were but few, he could assure the House that the
petitioners were possessed of more than four hundred thousand
I pounds in property. These persons of property so enlarged, came
forward to complain that the peace of Ireland was likely to be ma-
terially endangered by the present Bill. The petitioners had a
large stake in the country ; they were interested in the preservation
of the public peace, and, with a view to the preservation of that
peace and of their own property, it was that they now came for-
ward. They contemplated the danger to result from this Bill;
they looked on it as the recommencement of penal statutes, and
perhaps the fruit of a series of new and oppressive enactments ;
they believed it was a prelude to numerous encroachments on the
liberty of the people, not only in Ireland, but in England also ;
and the Right Honourable Baronet conjured the English Members
to rouse themselves, and look to this view of the question, as,
though the Bill was to have no immediate operation in Ireland, yet,
in its provisions, it might act as a precedent for similar Acts hi this
country. (Cheers.) It was material that both they and tie House
should take that view of the matter ; for though the measure was
declared to be temporary, it was accompanied with a declaration
that it was to be a substitute to six millions of people for their just
and acknowledged rights. (Cheers.) This measure of injustice and
oppression was to be co-existent with that unjust denial. (Cheers.)
The petitioners, as lovers of peace and good order, prayed that no
law may be enacted to curtail the liberty of the subject ; that no
steps may be pursued to suppress the Catholic Association, which
had conferred such eminently beneficial service on the people of
Ireland ; and, above all, they prayed that the few existing privi-
leges of the Catholics may not be diminished. The petition was
then brought up, and, at the desire of the Right lion. Baronet, it
was read through. It was from the parish of St. Ana's Audeon,
in the city of Dublin—Ordered to be printed.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT then presented similar petitions from
the following places;—The town and parish of Tuam, town of
Drogheda, barony of Iffa and Offa, in the county of Tipperary;
from the parish of Kilnamana, and town of Roscrea, in the same
county.--Ordered to be printed.
Sir THOMAS I.ETHBRIDGE presented a Petition against
the Catholic Association. He said, that a great many more Peti-
tions of a similar nature would be presented, but for the very salu-
tary measures about to he taken by his Majesty's Ministers to put
down that illegal Association. The Petition was from a large body
of his constituents, who were justly alarmed. They begged of
him to present it as soon as possible. It earnestly called on the
House to enact such laws as they in their wisdommight deem fit,
to check illegal Associations. The Petition was signed by upwards
of three thousand persons, residing in the city of Wells and its
vicinity. They ever regarded the delivery of this kingdom from
Papal influence as the great source of our present power and great-
new—they declare themselves, the friends to religious liberty in iu
fullest extent (Cheers from the Opposition Benches)—they declare

The petition was then laid on the table, and ordered to be
printed.
IRISH CATHOLICS.
Sir F. BURDETT, in presenting to the House the petition of
certain Roman Catholics of Ireland. members of the Catholic
Association, praying for a full and fair inquiry into the objects and
proceedings of the Catholic Association, offered a few observations
in support of the prayer of the petition. He was the less inclined
to trouble the House with any lengthened remarks, as the motion
of his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham) would shortly
come before the House. The petitioners only desired inquiry ;
they only asked that they should be allowed to prove the rectitude
of their intentions ; that a stigma should not be affixed to their
proceedings without reason. He hoped that the House would con-
sent to give the petitioners a fair opportunity of doing themselves
ivatice, and that the House would also do itself justice, by attend-
ing to the common interest of the country.
The petition was ordered to be printed.
HIS MAJESTY'S MAILS.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved for returns of copies of all me-
morials presented by public bodies in Ireland, respecting the con-
veyance of his Majesty's Mails ; also of the measures adopted by
the Post-office, in consequence of these memorials.—Ordered.
WAYS AND MEANS.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER

. -
the !louse then resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and
Means
The SPEAKER having left the Chair,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved, that five
millions, semaketag In the Exchequer from the last year, should be
applied to the swam of the peewit year; also that a suns of
twenty millions be rased on Exchequer bills for dm service of the
year El 4
These votes panted without opposition, and It was resolved that
the House should again eesolee- itself into a Committee of Ways
and Means on Monday next.
MOTION FOR INQUIRY.
Mr. BROUGR AM—ln rhing, Sir, to submit to the House a
proposition, of which I gave notice lest night, I confess I feet con-
siderable anxiety. I fear I have undertakee that which would
require a more able advocate, and I again repeat, that I do feel
much anxle , when* I call upon the House for its attention upon
this most important topic. At another period, or upon an ordinary
measure, Ishould not inertehuse such a proposal with a grave and
urgent motion, since in all ordinary cases, practical wisdom, as well
as justice require, never to condemn without giving those who are 1
accused a hearing, and never to refuse a hearing to the accessed 1
when they demand it. I should have supposed that feelings lite 1
these would have governed this House, had 1 not seen something '
like a disposition to hurry this measure—to force it through its Sc.
venal stages. It is this disposition a hick I think I have ob-
served, that has made my mind uneasy as to the result of
this motion. I had been under the impression that it would
have been agreed to as a matter of course ; but this aymptom
to which I have alluded, induced me to fear that it may be
otherwise, and that this motion may be contended, and opposed
by those who hare introduced the BilL I find, to my un-
speakable astonishment, that Gentlemen are not satisfied with en-
treat:chivied hastening a penal measure, which has been founded,
upon accusations partlyamagmed, partly finputad—apartndosindoliv
which have been diminished, explained, hnd weakened, without
any irquiry. But when the facts are sought to be investigated—
when the accused demand inquiry. and cry, in the spirit of the
allusion made by his Honourable Friend the Member for West-
minater (Sir F. Burdett), when they cry_" Strike, but hear!"—
when those very Gentlemen swallowed, as facts, reports which are
already proved to have been unfounded, I repeat, it fills me with
unspeakable astonishment to find, that these Gentlemen resolve—
decide we will, but hear we will not. This determination it is that
causes me deep anxiety ; for a question of more fearful import never
came before this House, and it Italian be decided hastily, I tear it
will be a source of deep and lasting regret to this House and to the
country. Good God ! refuse to allow six millions of people to
vindicate themselves ! Close the doors of this House against
inquiry ! When the petitioners court inquiry—when they demand
the strictest scrutiny into their motives and proceedings, is it pos-
sible that the House can be so unjust as to try, condemn, sentence,
and execute, witl.out inquiry? It cannot be possible that the
House should come to such a decision. I entertain a hope that the
House will not incur the fearful responsibility which must mite
by a refusal of the humble, but firm and reasonable, demand for
inquiry. The nearer I view the subject, the more I think on it,
the more attention I devote to it, the more encouragement do I
derive. The more monstrous the alternctive which appears in the
event of • refusal, the more impossible does it seem to me that
the House should incur so frightful a responsibility, as that which
would arise from the rejection of the motion for inquiry. Ido not
mean to debate the principle of the Bill over again ; not because I
think the subject has been exhausted ; on the contrary, I think it
, worthy of debate night after night, whenever a petition shall he
1 presented—in every stage of the Bill, and even after it has passed,
if It shall ever pas., I do think it desetves and require., repeated
I discussion. But I shall not now enter into the principle of the Bill,
' because the question which I now have the honour of submitting
is not involved in the principle of the Bill. Those Hon. Mena-
, hers who may have spoken iii favour of the Bill, and who sup-
ported its introduction, may now most consistently and rationally
support the motion for inquiry. Those who differed with me when
the Bill was brought forward, and were then opposed to my send.
menus, may now conscientiously support my motion. I have no
hesitation in averring, that if, instead of earnestly wishing
that this Bill should not pass, I would be most forward to
support the present motion for inquiry, I should then be
most anxious to pave the way for the introduction of the
Bill, by hearing the parties in their defence. This is all I
call upon the House now to do, and I cannot contemplate any
thing more dreadful then the consequences which may arise front
rashly adopting a measure like that proposed, without sufficient
inquiry. The greater the necessity for the introduction of the Bill,
in the same proportion does the necessity exist for sifting the pro-
ceedinge upon which it is founded, which can only be fairly done
by hearing the parties. This is the only way, the least objection-
able way, of coming at the real facts. If the House shall agree to
the Bill, after a rigid scrutiny of the proceedings upon which it is
founded, and atter hearing the parties whom it is intended to effect,
in their own defence, it will take away the grounds for cavil.
None can say to the House, you have determined rashly and incon-
siderately—you have trenched upon our rights as subjects, without
inquiry and without necessity—you bade agreed to a penal law.
the necessity for which is not grounded upon facts. Upon those
grounds I should call upon the House to support the motion for in-
quiry ; but there exists another groand. lam authorised here to tell
the House that a cloud of witnesses are ready to refute the account
of those faces upon which his Majesty's Ministers have grounded
this Bill. There is no man who, uppn general reasoning, could
take upon him to propose such a Bill; It must be grounded upon
facts. Nn man could think of proposing such a Bill, as lie might
the consolidation of the Excise or Customs, or any matter of noto-
riety, like the abuses of the Court of Chancery. But even there,
in the Case of the Court of Chancery, to show the value of notoriety
in some cases, and its extensive application in others, when my
Honourable Friend, the Member for Lincoln (Mr. J. Williams),
proposed an investigation—and no doubt there is not, there cannot,
be a greater practical grievance than the abuses of the Court of
Chancery,—how did my Honourable and Learned Friend proceed ?
Did he move a vote of censure? Did he introduce a Bill ? Or did
he request the House to pass it without inquiry ? No such thing:
alter a statement of great power, and in support of which he in-
troduced many facts, lie at length induced the House to consent,
in spite of the mock proceeding—l mean the partial proceeding—
i allude to the expression uaed by the Attorney-General—not to
the passing of a Bill, but to the appointment of a Committee of
Inquiry. This House needs not, it ought not, to incur responsi-
bility, by acting upon measures spun out of any theoretical brain ;
its measures should be founded in facts. Is this a measure
intended to abridge the right of petitioning in a free coun.
try. Is this a measure upon which the principle I allude to ought
to be suspended ? Is this a measure upon which the House ought
to legislate, without considering the facts? But what were the
facts stated by the Hon. Member who introduced the Bill ? They
were as numerous and various as they were correct • there were
only two facts mentioned by him. The number was indeed limited,•
but the accuracy—that had no limits, though it was indeed little.
The Catholics of Ireland are anxious to meet the few facts which
have been produced. They desire to remove the impressions
which have arisen from the statement of such facts. They here
tender—they authorise me to tender parole and written evidence to
substantiate the statements contained in their petition. There is
much in a Member thus pledging himself in his place, that he is
' authorised to impugn the facts which have been produced. After
this, should the House say, we don't wish for inquiry, we wish to
legislate? Why, whet should such an answer mean ? That we
don't want petitions on this subject that petitions haunt us. We
don't wish witnesses, for they are the injured parties, and we have
done them harm enough already. We will not be tormented with
their defence. We should only be annoyed with their tales of
distress, and if we permitted them to appear before us, we may
only add insult to injury. But I should say, don't let the House
be afraid, for if you open the door to the evidence which if offered
to you, I have little doubt but you will shut out the Bill. (Hear,
bear.) An example or two is worth many observations. and I shall
relate one, to show the value of evidence and of inemiry. I hope
the House has not forgotton the Right Honourable Gentleman
(Mr. Goulbourn's) email and select collection of facts. I hope the
House may recollect the case of the soldier which the Right lion.
Gentleman mentioned, and which has been observed upon by
several Gentlemen at the opposite side. Could any mortal man,
who heard the statement of the soldief's prosecution. doubt that
he was overwhelmed by the weight of the Catholic Aristocracy—
that a prosecution had been entered upon by the unanimous vote of
the Association, supported by the weight of their purse? It was
natural to suppose every man in the House must believe, after
such a relation of injury end oppression, that Hanlon, the soldier,
was an Orangeman and a Protestant. No Gentleman in this
House could have doubted it. But what was the fact? Why, it
appeared that Hanlon was a Catholic and an Irishman, and that
. he had been prosecuted for administering unlawful oaths. This
example may serve to prove how necessary it was that the House
should not condemn without having evidence before it. (Hear,
hear, hear.) But then there is the petition from Wells against
the Association, anti there may be petitions from many other
ancient cities, but perhaps evidesce might not be inapplicable
to those, It may demonstrate upon what that alarm is found-'
ed, which the petitioners so pathetically express. But suppose
I shall have it in my power to submit to the consideration of
the House strong, positive, and undeniable proofs—proofs to
which I shall not fear to challenge the utmost professional acute-
ness of Learned Gentlemen who sit upon the other side of the
House, and, among others, those who stand among the must em'-
nent of them, both in power, learning, and local information, the
Attorney-Generals for England and Ireland--should I, in the
name of this much-calumniated Association, offer such proofs, and
thus throw down the gauntlet to the champions of the measure now
in progress, will they not accept the challenge previous to making
up their minds upon a subject of such overwhelming and vital im-
portance? Should he be able to quiet the apprehensions of the
Church-alarmists of ells country, to show them the groundless na-
ture of their fears, and, in fact and truth, to dissociate the Catholic
Association and the Catholic community from any participation or
fellowship whatsoever with the assailants of the Church of England
as by law established—should I be able to effect this, what will be-
come of all those alarms and cries of "No Popery" new so zealously
raised ? I tell this House, anti its doing so Ido not speak rashly or
unadvisedly, that it is the known, the decided, and tin expressed
opinion, as well as the deep and mesa, feeling of the most eminent
among the very many eminent men who are at the head of the Ca-
tholic Association—no matter how sincere and enthusiastic is their
, lea and devotion towards their own Churcb—no matter how they,

or others of their body, may smart under the etigroasing power of
the Established Church, yet I tell the )louse and it, country. daft
the leaders of the Catholic Association deprecate the idea of
ayerpossible interference with the tensporaliivat of that Church.
'l' would not, Sir, had/they the power, uerisfer one tithe-sheet(
from the Prim:sista to the Popish Rierarthe. The expreasioo of
their feeling on that subject and I helices it to be a sincere one—
is. ut God forbid we ehoutd ever see the day whim our (Iva) shall
become possessed of the temporalities of the Protea:alit Establish. .
meat." Rot en this subject I aim; al not oily to derlsrations tiet
to facts--facts w.)tielt speak volumes—tire coNg,ct a the codiaio. .
themselves. going lo the discoinfitiag of those who rathe thole
voices against the Catholics, and egnally going to assure aa
satisfy the minds of those who might have entertained 'any Akira
with respect to the integrity of the Church Faitoblietthent or 'hie
country. But, Sir, t put forth this fact only as a sorriplo of the
evidence which can he produced at the bar pt. floe House, if the
opportunity be afforded ; and I assure the house, that It is iset
my object, nor the object of the Association, in niakiiig tlicir ee-
-1 eldest to be heard # your bar, to oceasiott as* feethectfelte, ttr pa.
Inecessarily to protract the second read rtg of the Bill intrcduced loy
lhe Hon. the Secretary for Ireland, 1:711C3.1, indeed, it be the Leen-
tiou of Gentlernem to read the Bill a Aeons] time ha-morrow, in,
stead of Monsiny, the day for which it is fixed., And if (ice tale
are desinnts of taking that unparlianientary atom in their ahaiste •
to hurry on this Bill through its several stages, f fer one will /tot
object even to that. If you grant the prayer of these petilloiers to
be heard by Counsel and evidence at the bar of yostr pies that
is not a measure which will itraied,e the' progress of al Ilill, ex-
cepting is so far as it tnay induce you to throw it our altogether,
for the witnesses are now reedy to appear before you. Yes, Sir,
twenty or thirty of the gendetnen best able tot ekve iniptiraint
• testimony, ire already *Meads and waititg pParga....--if yyy ate'
soadecide it—to miler it at bar of tics Roese. They are set
lesothe pip tioiechras—tliougla co one can Le
more ready to apprecia and eologarrikir groat &squirt*, TittaU 1.,'
,irere
am—but they have come to this country with the hope, and with
the reliance upon your known justice, that you will permit. Orin to
appear before you, and give them the opportunity they seek to
clear their conduct,explain their motives, vindicate the Association,
defend their countrymen, Alld maintain the integrity of their religion.
These AM the objects they have had in vice' in their request; and,
let me add a still higher one, the maintenance and coottnuauon of
the peace and tranquillity of Ireland. However unwilling Hon.
Gentlemen on the other aide, and the favourers of the proposed
measure, may be to call these persons to the bar of the House, I
feel persuaded, if they comply with their request, and permit t:-WI
, to give the explanation they offer—,jf they will but hear these men,
! and permit them to tell their own story in their own wirds, I
feel persuaded Gentlemen wiU hate no reason to regret ;laving
complied with the prayer of the petition. lam sure, it I can ye:a
tore to prophesy the effects of such concession, front what I know
of the objects of the Association, from what I have seen of these
gentlemen who now crave a hearing at the bar of the House, sad
from all] hare meditated on the subject, I may venture to predict,
that both parties will come out of the inquiry, however it may ter-
minate, with mutual feelings of good-will and satisfaction. Ad-
dressing myself to the opposers of Unman Catholic relief. I tell
them you will come out of the investigation with your prejudice.;
against that body, if not removed, at least considerably sottcced ;
and they will depart from the bar of your House, whether suc-
cessful, or leaving the fixed hostility to their claims unshaken,
carrying to the bosoms of their countrymen such feelings of re poet
for your justice, and delight for the kindness of your treatment, as,
will enable you to do with ease Ind safety that which otherwise you
can merely dare to do,-1 mean, to pass a Bill to gag the people of
Ireland, without affording them substantial justice and relief. The;
prospect now before the House of conciliating the people of Ireland
is so impatient, and. I will add, unexpected, that 1 must crave at,
tention while I dwell upon it more particularly, and in proportion
to its magnitude. In doing so, I beg it to be understood, that I arm
not talking the language of party. or assuming the tone of defiance.
It is now our wish to conciliate all parts of the empire ; and when,
in the.whole history of the country, have we had such an opportu-
nity to conciliate Ireland, and bind her in the closest bonds of atm-,
ty, as we possess this night ? You have, at this moment, ready and
waiting to meet you, the most ulistintuished members of the Ca,
tholic community in that country. lou have, I n:av be allowed to
say, virtually all Ireland ready to come into this house and sua
leennise a compact of conciliation with those silo should represrat
the feelings and the wisdom of all England. Will you say to disci,
" We will not hear you ; we will enter into no such compact—go
away ?" If vou do, you do not merely say—" Go away,- bus
you do a deed leading to scenes which the youngest man here will
not live to ace the end of, and causing results which the boldest Matt
in this House will have ressomso repent. Lord Liverpool, nlio has
interviews with the Secretary of the Bible Society one day, and with
the Antiquarian Society the next--each of them not a whit more
legal than the Catholic Association—has refused to hold any corn,
munication with Mr. 51• Donnell, the Society's Agent I trust this,
house will not afford • comment and a corroboration of the Nob; it
Lord's conduct in their treatment of the request of the Assn:jailor ;
I trust vou will not say to there, " Go your ways,we gill entea
into no discussion or explanation,—we will adopt a shorter outage.?-.,
put you down, and throw conciliation to the winds." If, Si:, this
is the answer to Le returned by this House to the prayer of this pe-
tition, it will be the most grievous mistake ever committed by Par-
liament. This House did not adopt such conduct towitdi
America in 1766 ; and 1775, when it did pursue such a lire of
conduct, it was under other and widely different circumstances.
The House, when at that period it had but two or three persona
from the colonies before it, was not aware that they spoke the lan.
guage which pervaded all America, with respect to the extravagant
pretensions of the 3lother Country ; and it was cipially ignorant
that Dr. Franklin poss,ased the affections and confidence of the
American people, when it hired a man to traduce him before the
Privy Council, which cost this country thirteen colonies. Here It
is impossible for the House to doubt that the persons who addreaa
them possess the copfidence of the Irish nation.; for it is made a
charge against them that they are the representatives of their Ca-
tholic countrymen. It is all well to argue in this manner, and /
am willing to meet Gentlemen on the grounds of their own corers-
aion, and 1 tell them they ought to rejoice in the oppo:tu:.i:y
alfoded thom to make a treaty with the Irish nation (of course i
mean the Catholic, and larger part of it) through the medium er
the Catholic Association. Sir, it will be easy to effect this. ii
the House will but consent to entertain the proposition of the peti-
tioners. The House would either have to grant the wishes of the
Association and the Catholic body, or else reject them, after a kind
consideration. Let the Ilouse do this, and their determination will
be submitted to. I beg of the House to consider whether the adops
tion of either of these alternatives be not better than to shut the
door upon conciliation, by rejecting the prayee of the petition? Sir,
this is a case in which I expect to be met by Honourable Gentle-
men opposite with a cry that it is against all precedent to comply
with the request of the Association. 1 thick I can produce nee.
cedents to bear me out ; but even if I failed in my attempt, the
present is a case which is of such an original nature as to form •
precedent itself ; and I shall not abate in my attempts. Sir, this.
House lost America by precedents. In the year 1706, the Stamp,
Act was passed by the existing House of Commons ; an Act of so
offensive a nature to our American colonies, that numerous peti-
tions from residents in America, and the inhabitants of this coun-
try, were presented to the House against it. Those petitions
were received, and their consideration referred to a Committee or
the whole House, evidence was heard et the bar. etriong other, that or
Dr. Franklin : not only were witnesses examined but Counsel heard,
and the inquiry terminated in such a mariner as to induce the
then House of Commons to repeal the obnoxious law. Here is a
precedent in favour of the petitioners. Afterwards, I here to inform
the House, various pritioni and remonstrences 'AM sent in easiest
the Boston port and illassachusete Bilis, in ahich remenstrances
the house was reminded, " that if disturbances had happened they
should take into consideration the causes which had produced them,
and that no general discontent could exist without being the curse-
quence of general oppression." Unfortunately for this country, the
same course had not been adopted in 1775 as thet person! its 17ti1l.
I expect all the arguments to be adducted on the present etcaslon
will be drawn from the storehouse of the debates at that time.
The Hedge will be told that " this is a measure of state policy, one
of colonial policy, arid that no man was struck at more than an-
other." A droll reason for the adoption of a measure, that it is
equally offensive to a whole nation. I will tell Gentlemen, that If
these are the arguments to be repeated on the present occasion,
they are those by which the country lost America. Lout even thri,
the principles, I submit to the House, were understood, if act
acted upon. I prove this, Sir, by a reference to the protest entered
into against those grievous and unprecedented measures, by ewes-
men whose names would stand high by the side of the proudest and
noblest this country ever produced—l allude, Sir, to Lords Cam-
den, Portland, Fitzeilliara, and Rockingham, whose tames I
find affixed to this protest against the unjust encroachments of this
country on her American colonies. What, Sir, were the sen-
timents of Dr. Franklin upon this subject, which I lanteat to ray
was a somewhat similar one to the present ? God grant the simila-
rity may not proceed any farther than it has already. The Dootor.
speaking of the measures adopted by the British Goverment, says.
" Such measures might, perhaps, be easily carried in Ireland.
where there exists the althea ratio of a standing army. ' Ir.'—ro
adopt the Italian proverb—' you met yourselves sheep, the welcrs
will eat you.'" He then goes on to say that the prepositions of the
Colonies were inibi,mantly rejected by a large majority of the
House, of whose q•ialtfications for government the Doctor enter-
tained so low an opinion that he conceived they " had scarce dis-
cernment sufficient to governs herd ofewine—a homely, tut. alas !
too true an opinion. I trust it will not be applicable to the present
proceedings of this House. Ido entreat this Hoare to govern the•
country, not by fear, but good will. anti to recollect that the dif-
ference between a slave and a rebel is tut very slight. This was
the
worthy of notice. It wee at that period the boast of Minister' diet
duoticotnri,nebuwt hdicethowttasixedyropmouvritd
aart;,herantim.abin!tteuAdmeur:
they could march through Amenea with a battalion of toploal
anlionreessrol
and having lost thousands of lives. and added milliotie toast debt.
troops, and it was rot :ill after the lapse of seven oe eight yens.
that they awoke to an enjoyment of their serums, rod perceived that.
our colonic* were r••ettlediably gone. I rejoice, Sit, in the ma ea.
hetet example of meted to us by that country, whiet has goat
on increasing with our growth, and exhibits at this tei a
ment the splendid sight of a cowntry governing
.itself • a .
out tyranny either its Church or State, uniting pieties • -...
greatness, and, ilia late instants, exhibiting a amble example of v a-
titude to its deliverers, scarcely paralleled la intent or eno .re

times. I allude to the reception of the illustrious La Fayette
that country. 1 entreat the House, if they cannot meet the hopes
of the Catholics, at least to put an end to their discontent. There
another peecedeoefor bearing the petitioners at the Bar of the
House, to be found in the ease of the Hawkers and Pedlars, who
were permitted to be heard by Counsel, on the prayer of their pe-
tition to that effect. I only entreat the same measure of justice
and consideration, for the claims of six millions of people, as you
acceded in that instance Ido entreat that on an occasion such '
as the present, all animosities will be forgotten, and I entreat both
aides of the House to seize the present golden opportunity—an op-
portunity which may never again occur; I entreat Hon. Members,
whether they be for posing or rejecting the present measures. to
concur with the Brayer of this petition. you hear and see those
men, and become familiar with the leading interests of the Ca-
tholics, you will have laid the fhundation of a permanent, firm, and
urexceptionable conciliation. I move, Sir, that those parties, in
ptirsuance of the prayer of their petition, be now heard at the Bar
of this House.
Mr. W. WYNN thought, that the present parties should be
content with the customary privilege of being teard by petition.
Pe thought the proposed measure for the suppression of illegal
associations, 'one of great consequence ; and he was sure there
existed no desire to force it prematurely through the Moose,
without giving it the most calm and extensive consideration.—
Da he would tell the House. that this measure seas not directed
solely against theflatholic Association: It was an 'Act to put
down all Associations, all parties, all combinations,' which, under
the garb of religion, or any other pretext, kept alive animosities
in Ireland. And he would tell the House sad the country, that
if It was not speedily curly' into effect, all that we had already.
'seen or heard of the interference of party in the administration of
justice would be but a shadow compared to what must inevitably
• follow. He contended, that neither the Hon. Gentleman's allu-
sion to the Stamp Acts nor the Hawkers' Act, were applicable
it the present case—they were local Acts, not of general
appli-
; not like the present Act, extending to all AtrociitMna.
Ile did not like to quote precederos, but he would just mention
a ease which occurred in 1785. At that time a bill was attempted to
be introduced for the purpose of regatati ng the method of taking the
poll at elections in Westminster. Mr. Pitt opposed it, on the grounds
•that it would be a pretedent for every ether borough procuring
an Act for the same purpose, and the consequence was tint
the Bill was lost. It Tors with ro little surprise that he had
heard the Hon. Gentleman argue to-night so strongly ter these
wh ewe being heard at the bar of this idoose ; for he recollected
thatDO Mager Chad three years ago he hadbeen opposed by the Hon.
4911111111111110 in a eashWhich very much resembled that which he now
advocated. Ile had presented a petition from the next friend of a
body who (Auld rot petition themselves, the negroes of an Island
is the .Vest Indies, praying that they might not be removed from
as island where many of them had been born, and where all had
Bred fora great number of years. What was the objection ? Why,
edy Hon. Friend would not allow fbem to present a petition, and
to be heard by their next friend, rest it should create a precedent ;
bitt if their master would allow them to appear, if he would provide
them with fie means of coming to England, then he would hear
them. He would not allbw their next friend to be heard,
but if they came themselves he iehuld heir them. Is not
this a little inconsrttent ? He would not hear them because
It eight create a precedent, and any other bodies of per-
am feeling themselves aggrieved Might claim to be heard in the
manner; and yet nori-lie calls upon us to hear witnesses on
of others in a precisely similar manner. The Hon. Gentle_
tattoo, too, has endeavoured to draw an inference from the fact of
the soldier being a Catholic. Now he could say that it was not in
his recollection that the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland had ever
*id hewn either Catholk or Protestant, and in his mind it made
ttftß Ible bast differerce whether be was Catholic or Protestant ; no,
bet the least dtfFerenee whether he was gust' or innocent of the
Murder laid to his charge—it was enough for hint that his cause
was prejudged, that he was held up to the Teeple in a light which
MO man untried should be, and :hat the whole proceedings of the
Catholic Association in his case tended to the denial or perversion
ofjaatice. Ile did not care what interpretation a Right Hon.
baronet (Sir John Newport) might put upon the acts of the Asso-
ciation. When he (Mr. Wyrn) saw a "pelslic meeting put
forth a declaration holding this man up to their fellow-subjects
r
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