The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1810-05-28 00:00:00

THE CATHOLIC QUESTION.

rateente OF lIR. PONSON SY'S SlS'teell, DILITIMED
IN TIM ItutlSC of collitoNS, on FRIDAY LAST,
ON Ma. GRATTASI'a MOTION thaP/MTING Tug
CATHOLIC CLAIMS.]
Mr. PONSONDIr—" 1 nape, es a Right Iloaottr-
able Gent!email (Mr. Ryder) has calleJ upon me
to give some account of env conduct and proceed-
ing. in this House, on a firmer occasion, that the
Route will have the goudiires to hear, patiently,
what would, under inner circumstances, be little -
deserving of notice, namely, my own conduct.—
The Right Han. Gentleinati has said, I stated to
the House, that the accrethied ugent of the Crtho- .
Ile Bishops of Ireland had authorised me to make •
proposal to this 11.. use, iu their moues. Now, the
Right lion. t:entleinatt is perfectly incorrect in
that 'detriment. I sever oast, d ray such thing. I
VOA, I had every reason to believe, that the Ca-
tholic Bishopsouil Clergy of Ireland, and Catholics,
generally, were dieposed to give to the Crown an
effectual negative to the nomination ally: Bishops,
if, ea return for that, the House would be disposed
to give•te the Catholics of Ireland the lull privi-
leges and benefits of the Constitution ; and when I
was asked for my authority, by the lion. Member
for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Yorke), it will be remem-
bered, I aaswered, that my authority was l)v.
Milner; and now I %ill state to the House what
were the touchers in my powtessiou, which enabled
and audios ised me to give that answer. The Riteit
I latmor..ble Gentleineti soya, that, w;seu the Ca-
thulic Chilli's have Owen enforced, I have sleeps
remained elent ; awl lie wonders that I should
bate The Right Hon Gentleman's
wonder wall never be a motive of e lust with me.
Ile ns iy wonder if he pleases ; bat I shall regulate
my coodect in such a menne,, as that the Dune
shall tlitrik it not unworthy its approliatioti. I did
net, upon what was called the first question. t k
it necessary or fitting to week. I thought it more
piper to imerve what I had to say, till the diecite.
idol& cattle Fully before the House; algid I was dis-
posed to bear easy load of calumny. until the fit
and proper occasion flotilla occur, of expresaing toy
eentituents. iso g been, fur a great many years
of my life, • sincere and uniform supporter of the
Catholic CL1411.4. shell Lord Fitignl came over,
two years ago. the mole delegate of the Catholics of
Ireland, he was phased to cuter into Moen cad&
deuti4i conversation a me. I told him, that I
had oth.eree.i, m a!I the interc•Nrtie I bad had elm
others upon this important @slake, that nothlag
weighed su much, and seemed to hive saris an
ewe. anon upon the minds of the Gentlemen of this
coutitty. as 'lie Lotion, that the Catholics of Ire-
land were nntler t comma, agd under the jons-
diction of a narc;gti nation ; •usl I slated, drat I
understood some co ettiunicsiins had formerly
taken place between t e Catholic Bishops and the
Catholic Clergy am the, occasion, hut that I did
te t kw". woe' it was; for the Noble Lord, ou the
other side of Cie House (Lord Castlereagh) is aware,
th it to administration 110 man wits more ri:spo,ed
thin myself; and, therefore, what was r
• hi. atlinMistration, was less likely to be
kilitwil to use. Lord Finest said, he thought PO
ton; but, he vital, he believed doer would not he
nan:-h %illy upon the puller, t for that. ie
I;;Io, the Catholic Bishop. had mule • pro.
pawl to the 1114 i Governtaent, awl that they
now entertained the same opinion they then
entertained. I asked Lord Finest, If I had
perm:ssion to state such propoml at the pre-
sent time Ile said certatilly ; but he added that
the List) Bonnys hail in this country one of the
Catholic Illi.hops who was their agent, and that I
had hem,.sin e and he was unknown to me,
but that if Lord Fingal would introduce him to me
I should he glad to have some conversation with
ilty or two after I received • Dote from
Lind Fitiel, Moline that Dr. Milner was in %Far-
wiekehire and would write to me.—Sonse time
pieepel, 'tad before the !LI of May. Lord Fingal
wrote to say, that Dr. Milner wits in London, and
that he and Dr. Milner would wait upon me
the next day. My answer to hie letter up-
!minted the particular time. and accoodingly the
next day they came to me—the convenritiou
lasted some hours--;wo or three hoersat least; there
was a great deal ef eouversation relating to the CM-
tholies, but particularly with regard to the townies-
tion oft lie Catholic Iltslimer, and the negative to be
F. yen to the Crown—after the conversation had
teken place, Lord Fingal and Dr. Milner withdrew, •
and certainly alien they eithdocer, nothing had
passed in writing, and if it had 'hot b.-en fur an eveiit
which afterwards took place, I dionld not have any
thing more to sheer fiw the truth of what I here
Stitch to the House, thin my own word, and the
of Lord Fineel; but the d'r'after the
conveiert,ou had paes-d, Dr. Milner called at my
Intuie strain. mud he left at my house • ticket Iliad a
',tier, winch, with the twintiesion of the House I
uifl read—rkeer ! freer! reed. rend)—the tielest
lied on one aide Dr. Bloomsbury. and on
the other throe re,n Hems :
J. Protestaat Sorresstun L louse in Oath of Pekoes LU
e. Attending Esublishet Service.
Service by Articles of war.
a reareelie eeiree sea--Tloass Paitte's Works.
4. Noiniaiatiou to Catholie Prelacies.
The ticket was accomeituied by the letter I bevel.
My hand, and in reading the, lettee, I 'hall be
obliged to state presages which are extremely fa-
vourable tit net argument ; but the Iluuk *tit feel
that I as called upon to make a palpate atattatent
of them. The letter is to this effect.
" Dr. Wither preemie his respectfol compliments to the
Lehi How Hr Fontioulvy, mot Woe the Molts al natal
distinctly io writing. the talettawre of what lie seal sat, or
waiteu sae, ,a Isis ecov,rsalion winch he hail the honoar
albeidieß ^.ll. 31, Pint, the Prti:4l-/
iftntaw.t arc 'Bleier to give • eiree-t n.; vane p.,,re to His
Majeaty's finernmwst, with respect to the tioutioation of
there UMW Iti.hopries, in sorb as isinse, that *lwo they have
amuse themselves resolved who is the West permit for the
vacant wee. they silt transmit los same to Hi, quitatoe
tasters, and d tie la rrrr ahoold skiers In that mini-, they
n all iunset., wiollwr and 6.1014111, atone
to which 1/112abievtion is mad: ; sad m enter likely to
be the acre) shonlel the Pope referee to cull Drum eseeat.agy
neces,iry spiritual powers sal shirk he is the ekpositary, to
the person so pre ...toed she Catholic Dolton% midst, ap-
proved of by Gammon it, they sill coutiaar 10 prearat the
some., till oar occurs ahwh to agreeable to both per to s,
namelv. are Coo.. • end Ap.stol.c is to he oh.
tersest, heeeset—t That the Coma dues not inter‘ or with
the ammeter of soy.othes relia.uses sect, or cheirclhoh.ch It
dues not sapp.sm Tint the Dominators in this towns%
irately, the Lat:oelee Bieholo,; ate awn ersatipllC6.lll Whsiaore

to tfO 3fajrity....3. 'That they will moreover 'acne to humi-
liate no result who has not taken taken the oath in
isestion.
" idly. It appears that the elegise contenting the Pro
tartest Siteceoho, does not uccar iu the oath of the Defence
BA bat it would be highly gratifying to the consciences of
the Catholic Bishops and Clergy, mad a great proportion of
the Lsity, fshostil an oppiehmity occur,) if any friend of
theirs would distinctly stab., in what mare they epoterstood
that etsuse, iu the ooh appointed for them to take, particu-
larly in that of 1791, cis. or 0 penalty, which insist for ever re-
main swim them, and to • loch they rebnait with rift
not as.. eastagemeut which they mkt Upon 1111110SriVe11, iu
ouch suet that they would be. ohlrged to take angst asrisiest
Ilir .Itojerty if he were to ya to moo. They conceive them-
sclvesjosttied in midi:ll43Am; else clause iu this. sonar, by
the moot positive aestirmicia, that much was the meaning of
the LrizlinatUr‘, which ntic Oren tbnin 10 1791, by Bishop
Hensley, and other distinguished Senators, who tusuaged the
Dili iu Parlivnicut.
" dilly. The practice of forcing Catholic soldiers sad
sai:ors to attend she eidablisbcd service of ilw Church of
hind, sod every where else, except in Irelaitd, is a religious(
grievants and oppression, which is deeply felt by all Callus.
lies, particular!) by the subjects of this intolerauce
" stbly. Mr. P. was so good as to say that lie oostid
disclaim, in else name of the Catholics of Ireland, the civil
and rOgioitr rude of booms Paine, which they have hems
accused in the Nocapapers at least of teaching and holding.
M ulster lilt. soy of comae, bad iii opputtunity
of consulting with the Catholic Pechora of 'Mood On the
important satiject of the Catholic presentations ; but As Asir
ores y 'ruse* 1,, below that they will cheerfully subscribe lv
the plan traced out in the trot page of this tune."
It pill he observed, that the first page of the
note contains the plait of election and nomination.
with an unlimited veto in the Crown. When I
staled that the C .ttiol.e Bishops entertained the
81111Ie opinion they did in 1799, and was c..lteri upon
tor my authority; all I sand aria. that l)r. Milner
was my authority for that statement. I have read
his letter to thia House, stud it will be for the House
to lay whether it was correct. 1 recollect that the
*seat day tne Member for Catobridgeshire desired
to see It, and I &hewed it to him ; used also to the
honourable Member fir Yorks..ire. Aud I re-
member their observations were. not that I lied over-
stated its contents. but that it would have autho-
rised use to have gone much further, At the des
bate which took place. there were present not only
Dr. Milner. but Lord Fingal. I recifilect when
went out lido the lobby, the first person I met wits
Lofd Fingal. and he %hooked me for whet I had
done. (Hear! hear!) 1 said, hoped I had not
gone two far ?' He said No; you are quite exact—
perfectly correct.' ricelooystbos s f hen, UMW .67
Aud Lord Fingal has, On sous • other 111.31011% con-
firmed. as a men of truth anti boour ought to have
done, what I leave stite•l 01,011 that occasion. I be-
hest .iiout a Jay or told after the debate, Dr. Mil.
nor called upon tut. add told me he was mach
band fault with by persons or his persuasion, fur
what I hail said ; and that it would hr necesosry
for htin tr. publish Borne,' isg to justify 'Mused.
He stated it was apprehei tled. that if du negative or
bete was giien to tile Crown, it would shake the King
the Header( the Catholic Church. I told bins I had
never mentioned any such wort.. i told blinded if 1
the Veto wa. given wow Crown, themost timid Pro. T
testaut world be satistied.thot all temperate persons
werewilliug tu ark mis ledge the rtg!lt of theCsthid c
Clergy to weer, is• their episcopal fisuctious I that
With respect to their morality rind good conduct as
subjects 1 was satisfied the King was 11..1 .4 the
Cathol;e Church, but as to waiters of kith it was
impossible to ask that he should be vorearlerecl as
Head of the Chinch:is that p•ritit of view; for it
'mold be to arrogate the right of deternisuitig all
matters of faith by the King; when, by the iletolu-
tion of Chri.t himself, it WAS given to the Bishops.
Dr. Milner said that was true. but that I had been
unsuuderstoodbe tad he told me of t liediepleasu re some
had taken at the idea of an unqualided and un-
linsi!ed rite, and had proposed that I should gane-
f a paper lobe circelated. Minting the veto. and
' canfiniug it to one, too, or more perilous only ; I
told Dr. Milner what was perfectly true, that the
tele was nut intended to give the Crown a direct
noinination of the Catholic Bishops.-that it could
net he in wiser hands than the Bishops themselves
that I never sioderstood it eras intent to be other.
wise ; that the veto was o.dy 'wide to satisfy the
Protestant community upon .he subject of foreign
nomination ; but I said. it' you retract what was
stited, and if you attemot to limit the veto. 1 fear
it will bare ass extremely bail influence upon your
cruise; it will look as if you wished to retract the
condition upon which yin engaged to accept the
grant of your claims. I said to him also, if the
Crown is to be limited in its trete, as to the number
of persons who may be proposed, those permutes
who are unfit, for causes known In the Crown Or to
its MilliSteri will be reketede and then some others
who are unfit by reason of other causes not known
to the Croon will be proposed. and the Crown by
the effect of evil limited veto will be obliged to
accept them. I authorised Dr. Milner to say that
urver did think the cute ought to be for any other
purpose than what I have stilted, and I never au-
thorised into to soy that I ahould approve of a die.
claim of the vete. Lord Fingal and Dr. Milner
Reid. they tnouglst it would be sail•factory. ai.cl
Devises .1 was taught to believe it would be OM I
cow:hided that they had reams) to believe it would
be aistisfuetory. It is a remarkable circumstance,
that though Dr. Milner hid said that the reports
in the ircespapers hid in their statement of what
fell from sue goer mach further tints whet I
had said myself, and that the *viten of those re-
ports lied acknowledged that the statements went
fulther than my lan;:tiage would justify. yet it Hi
remarkstrlc, I say, t i.at !received two letters thank.
iiiawe for what I wee sepposed to have said o:i the
subject. One is from an Archbishop. he thanks
me in this way : (Here the lion. Member read the
letter of the Arehhishopp to ohom he alluded; it

contssarl the lao,t nu oio:itir<l opol•ultatitm of the

argument• 411141 *inch bust he'll used
by the iii4itt Honour-2 Mcrohe► in the 41e.
bate Me reported iu t ••• i u lic p.DrI-.) The
other I.tt.r, wiiielt was ai•,. Irons a Cathol r Pre.
late, thanked me ouh• ir. 4.-ntral wins. l say.
•

thrrefore. it is not lit .ill aurprislag that Lord Fist-
ova himorlf • ~uhl have thalteil roc for

itAtell in the coarsen,' the debate., attifshoold have
added. that there nas Nuthiug nifeneeve. incorrect.
Of unanthorreed in my Pt-ttrusrest ; ‘s h. n 1 oil And
that hum.. hauely of. tr ards I received Ist thenks
nt too Cathohe lush orkilowkilirrng that
there a.ee nolh:nig oilegioute in whlt I dal ady.,nee,
but that. on the etautrary, a: vria, I.erfeetly correct.
and co atilt the *piteous and nen intent. of
the enihohce the C ohotic Per-
la:es should afttiwarus have departed frets what

Dr. Milner and Lord ringnl thought they were
authorised to concede on the subject, I do not know. I
I was assured that a few days before the rueetuggc
which took place with a view to * resolution that
ass not expedierit that the Crown should
mwe ieate the Bishops, it was thought the g
would come to a contrary couclusiots.; but lie%
the course of the month I did foie • ;Hittite*:
Lion upon the subject, signed J. l'ililner.—(This.
Right lionnureble Member reed several passages
from this publication, and also the report of his
own speech from a newspaper*he then read • let-
ter which he had sent to Dr. :Whirr, in consequence
of such ;Jollifications.) I receiviel an answer from
Dr. Mauer upon the subject, etplaisiing to we his
sentiments ; but that letter I do not choose to read,
because it may be considered as containtitg matter
rather of a private nature. The letter l hive read
l is, on the eicettary, a formal Instruction to me
with respect to what I was to say ; and it was writ-
ten with *view of stating whet lir. Milner had said,
or meant to say, iu the course of the convereatten
to which I have referred. Teat being • politic letter,
the e could be nothing iuipruper un my pert in
mentioning it. The answer to my letter is nut pre-
cisely of the same description; and therefore I do
not think I sin at liberty to read it to the House.
Such has hero the nature of the instruetious I re-
, crimes' from Dr. Milner. I had no other converse-
taco with him, than whet L bare elated, upon the
subject of Catholic representation, .except the one
to chili I have Niro referred, with Lard ringal, after
I the debate. The letter making it intelligible t-c
toe, what I was to say, was delivered to me the.
day before the debate. I have read, with consiier.
able surprise, another publication of Dr. Milner,
written evidently for the purpose of meeting soy
fluctottrable Friend's motion. (The Right Ho-
nourable Member read - a long 1.146411,ge from
this second stork of Dr. Milner, in which it was
inferred, that the arrengetnent was incompatible
wink the security of the Catholic religion, and vita
Mr. l'onsoally had acted without having sidlicient
stiathnity. I never conceived myself 'tumors :Ay
ta \ ed, aml I never stated tiny arrangement but his
own. If it is incompatible with the safety of the
Catholic religion, he is answerable and not I; and I
really think, that 34 Bishop of the Catholic Church
was as good a judge of the question as I ain.-s(The
Right Hon. Member here read another passage
from Dr. Milner's publication. referring to the
arrangements in Mein, the Heads of the Catholics.)
-By what means he knows what the arrauttemeitts
ire, in the minds of those he ca Is the heads of the
Catholics, I inn at a lose to detersnine ; for I have
never had any imeamurse with him Nom the sub-
ject ; and I most my, that Dr, Miloet would be the
last insir in the community to 'shorn I should with
to eommunicate any opinion 4411011 any subject. and
much less Olson such • one as Heir...-( fps Right
Hon. M -miler then read several pantgraphs from
pnother part of the book, is which the Doctor ex•
me• d a belief, that the Catholic religiou was an oh,-
I of uuiessonable prejudice on the part of the Pros
te.tanis.)-swlt is
-thus that Dr. Milner is pleased to re.
present all thole persons who for twenty years have
supported the cause of the Catholics with neceash,g
fidelity; and he desires the Catholics to bebece
that their rebgioit is an object of uureesonable
prejudice upon the pert of the Psotestauts.—Thee
are several other passages in this book, which era
ego-illy applicable to the,questioti. but I think It
...ohd be tiresome to read them to the House. I
have read thus much of them in constquence of
Dr. Milner lilting stated that he would rather lose
his life than give to the u!'_rown that refer which he
had before stated the Catholics were willing to
give ; mid because lie professes, to state the opinion,
of the Catholics. with as much confidence as if lie
was really informed whet they were.—Having, Sir,
said thus much, I hope mid trust I shall stand ac-
quitted before-this House of having rashly ed.
veneer" soy proposition o I this subject. without
sufficient aethority—(Vekeisteitt explyssions of ap.
proLetiort, mid ',pealed cries If Hear.ledr I/ hope
I shall be acquitted of issesug outateppell tins an-
thorny given met or of having stated in an imper-
fect or eseggereted mintier the nature of the edo to
which the Irish Crtholies were inclined to sub.

snit. With regard to the ref J itself, and my
conduct with respect to it, I most say that
it was regulated according to the opinion
of others. I had 'icier. either in the Irish
Parliament or here mentioned the subject.
The Noble Lord over the way ICastlererigh) wit.
nestled one or two motions which were made in the
Parliament, and mast be sensible that they
never pointed to any such proposition. Bat, Sir,
the state of the world, but snore particularly of
Europe, is maierially changed now from what it
was then. Formerly the Poi e was an independent
Prime : he had 41 i independent state and sove-
reignty guaranteed to him by the other Princes sad
Powe.s of the Coutinent. Their jealou.ies of each
other Melded the basis of his power and stability. It
was the interest of all the Princes of Continental
Europe that the power of the Pope should be ex-
erted over the whole of their respective
Ceramic Christeudosu was, necessarily. • his'sl of
religious repubie, and every state had a separate
and . articular interest in maintaining the authority
of the Pope. as the (lead of the Catholic Church.
and in supporting his ascecdanc). But. Sir, in
coosysinence of that great and extraordivary event
in the history of outlaw, the French Revolution,
the Pope become little more than a dependalit en•
vereign. a rawer altogether depending. for its po-
lomat existence, upon France. And two years ago
it was well known that the Emperor of the
French hail it in prospect and contemplation to
have associated in the Papacy Cardinal Fesch,and in
that case, and leach 411 event had taken place, it
is manifest that the real power of the Pope wnuld
have reiiiled la the Coadjutor of the Pope, mimic.
the Cardinal unnsiosted by the French Governiiii.m.
It o, however, perfectly well known, that the Pope
and the Cardinals resisted this proposition on the
part of the Emperor of France, with tillaßll.l,ed
courage and intlexible inreery. It is well known
what the Poiw's answer was upon that nee,-inn.
Flw 'viewer was. that it was possible the Emperor
of the Fm•cli would put him to death. but that
each an A •eacial taws of the Papal Passer ii,id
my as tow required of him, was contrary to his son-
scierase, and he would not submit to it, hr the
tousequence w sit it might. The prop-swim.
therefore. failed is success; but I firiul; i.e-
here. the espial:ism of the rope crew 'tutus

was accelerated, if not oeeasisned, Its
IrE:lfitililB:egelt,°ttro; ecru;ll.i;lute'itie).Pwmo ii)utelsit atidti:llll"Fher of t
h
ven
at he is to
htrehneyill:tlehilt6;i4o.tilaislupriaciireloyouno:l7;s:t.httyeoeleivolbil:vprintepeoro dritpisertnd as% Renck 4
arlitraiii,nliebeerd7n "Ihs.
still less in his littittle a sulijeet of Fraurel
under
trend of thst Emperor of the French. lit thre"::
sent stet! 0 this's*s the authority of the Poi
considerably {rescued.
was two years ago. At that time he pose Sled 't
1,4,4 „„nnaal i.ocere,glity, but ttt the ptreect I.
the Emperor of the Freud, has ulhailoc.ly
posed the Pope, and he has said that it is totes,
•
6m
potitsle with Vie principles of the French Gov,
merit, that the Pope shcold rt.ereise any toil 1.7ril
eutherity but because the Emperor is rwilli%
acknowledge that pastors are necessary to tl:t Co
tholic religium he give, the Pope ten na1ue.),,,.4
a certain annuml income, but at the some Imp ins
king it part or the condition open oiorli he rt,
criers his stipend, that he shell ',DLit part :14
year at Paris. The effect of this necessarily
not only to piece the present f'ol'k but 411 i 4.
tore Popes ender the to orrice of Fr ince, to
make the pupae, ert imitates-tit of Nese% auto,
nine, and. the oolitic:on of she Emperor. I errs
is lint StitiOrkitor that n greet many persona lit Pa,
country oitioilti feel a coirsiderahle lf,tiret
ii—
lonay about the Catholic Clergy and the P.p.,.
As to myself. I VOA the. Col holles on4in to 0,„,
to every thiog fair the e of sate( ing the p.
te.tunia, that it sit a!,aolutely llivaast 41tl 4;.!I
their a. eriew.e.. II the Catholics WV te.tettt
what they ask, and uo not ink it, wi Meg st 0..
came time that their ruler at may be tlenteilb this
ought, I think. knoweig as they must; that slid
they risk can only be 'getout, through 4t,
to give WI equivalent for what they ri:ieet to ab:nix
tom Perliaineut, and the Protestant Goirrutseott
Hot I think, hosiever, that your Pimestohl %els
jetts have no right lb sok shot is theousistrat
with the ionseienees of she Catholics. There art
no apprehensions 'of foreign jorisilienoto or r rrath
interference, operating upon my mud, that it ll
ever induce roe to ithandon the Interests of diet'..
tholics, upon such arrengemeats as afe tee
tent with the Protestant safety. I think they
have a tight to exerei-e their relloon es teot
ancestors pt.-Seised It ; and I see tot reason shy Ire
exercise of the religion of their Ibrefattiers should
prevent them fnim elloyirg the full benefit of tht
British Constit Sir. tooty a felt evils
ot the subject of the veto.—l do not know h..* 4,,
tog the Crown a eau can in soy mantle,
with the Cathol lc it could be in comidth
the Catholic faith would hate been violated bt :11
Catholics in Silesia. newts' std Llais-ia, ^11.,r
l pas of the Coub when
neut the .-sorenis.s M.%
ecru lit some places the nonsiteiti mis in the
King. and yet so MAW has etc • stated it to he tiro
nary to the essential artteles of the CethlLe 1411 h
IShould they mutt he disposed to agree to the Pei,. I
think other arreneanems tney be mode.blabs;
answer the same purpose, provide I the Cavite! ii
are de-Insult of doing what is right.-'-I sill at
no* shoe what those arrangements 1.1 l ;hi to to-.
it is sufficient to Observe that I thii.k the -r souk!
ba no clinic-018y in molting otranyemeni, •h. i
would be sstisfactoty to all pitities.*M r are to!!
that thy cloioss on the part of the Catholics et
suede for no purpose but tt at they m o be refund
---We are told that there art tit any Catholics both
in England wed Ireland. sho wish them to here.
fasedi sod tea• if there *ma disposition oa the not
ei the Prose tint Gtliernment to Write an ate
rangenteat with the English and Irish Csteilies
both these classes of persons would set to work
and employ all their arts to render any artier
roeut as disagreeable as a We, nod so put it nits
the'poiter of the enemies of airatigeasetit. ti do
feat any that Might be ploposed by those tithe sew
really the friends of both Catholics sod Pri.tesimito
Tb• Right lion. rientlemaa (Mr. liyilir) has re.
pressed his wonder that any Cat Ito me shottlil latr
beets found to signify an approbation what try
Hon. Friend (Mr. Grottos) ineettioneJ in the eat se
of his speech—he °hermh that it *sold he ado.
pat tare from the Catholic Faith to sanction the ap•
pottitment of a Collette ShlllOp, 111 the WI r"
weird be the effect of this oefo. I think that tie
R gist lion. Gentleman, as he is not fora)
to the cause of the Catholies, might at lent
Icier abstsined front wouudi ig their fitting-rev
He must kiwi,/ that several of the Cathohr h.ve
siguified something like an approbation to them*
rangeaseht proposed, and therefore it was nut tiles
rot in Min to state that they could net do so *hit.
out a departure from the essential articles o' ihd
faith. But, it appears to me. tbst the Hon. Gnat
dreaded within so much as that the areauizeme
should be accepted, and as he tholught it likely
that Parliament would emotion such an ensil'
ment, the hest way its defeat it was by taunt:l.ly
the Catholics o:th the violation of 'he prim-fee ir
their fortis, 6/ .westing to such a ino to. Ile . 111
Right Hon. Sirceetivy of State era that he lel
void against coecealon that hat keen mete!
hr has so expresied I bell; am Ith .11 to undef.ta
that if au arrangement could b.: WWI.. W:1 I
ventila be agneable I e.h t Caviare and Fil.,
testants, that still the Catholics must tO. h r'r 'e
depend on the It ie.ht Hun. Gentlemen for Irs
port ? The Noble Lord (Cast! renal.) has
.:t
si‘potookenwtietilliteanialerethoart sthpieriitntit.,(l tteanoTthr.- 1
is
t 1
worms to be williqg to grant tne claim* "
Catholics his concur, tore ; and that it toe Cat'
lies and Protestaiits could ensue to its

mrnt. he is still re.oly mot to sliver to it, h .1 tvi
cont.t try t t refuge i, N.* rit. the Noble r 1 fr
that ii the Altoi-sere were tool:
comply w.th *lint is rewureil of them. he sm
hot he the Irs.ll drtenoltled to refuse his co
1611. and an I understoOd the Right 11..n0u..1
Stcretary sic, to imp Titen, Ore use Irate t'
"by +4-y c0t.c...i010. 0 . the pot of the Cs
are to oe urged as is grimed of 'Nowell'. •
the one wit) of the other? hen the :rue 400
th,. i 4, that C., or ne retu—arirsgruv "
sin arrungrilieut—t he some tleirrnunetlywh
re. is. log the claims of the CA:toile, eal-t` "
mind' of the Adiot..istr oinu of the conolf
ulk of rejvc.ing th,ir thorn., ht r; .
agree to the e.fo. is nothing hot 41...i:e.••••
folli•—•••(Cries hr.tr,

Sri
7cri
all
'lencG at
1, a. at
but I II
4•tue4l, If
le cat,
hi!
ie
Op* 3 an
%hat tt
Sled by
1,1‘.4 of
Ir tins 4,0
lUtaaala rt
aot aa% a 4
144.1 t
I4t Co ta
5,,4
as. tau
Ile /ea C 4
:h a'
.411 .4. A
51,11
th*o.• li
e+" It
ofd 1
hr
4.,14
teak 14:
at ILa
14 Ohl 1
mt tlll4
Wel. la,
1
I &rah%
'laical I
LI *oh
misted
larre art
r math
int arblll
the UV
CO
is hilt
Shy Ifat
a
FhnMll
it of Ai
•
144 4... a
a
1111 C..r
*Molt ,
1)-

we tilling of arrangements between the Catholics
snd Protestants, their declarations are theh wordt of
their lips lint not the meaning of their earts.—
other this determination to re:tit all endeavours
e anangetneut, bettered the Catholics and Pt n-
test,„%e, be wise or not, it will well become tile
House to coneider. I do nut mem to follow air
Ilemourable Friend behind rue (General Aluthe..)
in all his arguments. I wish his steal had iuduced
be to express himself. in language more pleasant
sod less violent. I do rerialltly agree with him.
that there is no danger nhativer to be apprehended
by graining to Ireslatid those privileged the people
of that country hose a r4.-,rlit to etijoy ; bet. on the
cuatrarv, it nom,' be * 'twain of seciarity and
or,n.oh to the nlinte Empire—But. the Home is
oat cii taiitio:l at the present moment even to grant
the chows of the o.tholics of Ireland to their full
ethot.—At present the only demand by the ran-
tioit before the House is. that you will go into a
conuumee ; snit yet the motion is treated as if it
err 'demand of all yon had to give.--. There are
onoes,ious to he made an both sides; and if ou
expect vat concemions fonts the Catholics, ougyht
they not in return to expect some concession (roan
„,--those concessions would be the subject of
future cousiflerstion.—All that is asked now is to
go into s Committee—it. does not follow that be-
cause we go into a Committee to consider the Pe-
titian.,
Uowees any are the
onrefe ormean toe mermasay weids. to garereat
tot t
give
hey
pray.--
all that one Wailed ?—we shall not he bound to do
se by our vote of this eight, agreeing to go auto a
Causinittee.--Ilow far in the Coalmine • it may be
4.11,,,h,,it to determine to rectitnmenif to the Ilouse
the grnsting the ,Catholics of Ireland and Eisg.
bud full pious Indian in the benefits of the
British Constitution,may be a question at this per.
teethe crisis, worthy of mitore
Whit is the state of Europe at the present
moment? • Is not the whole power or the
C intiitent oohed under the dominion of a single
per-on? Is not that parrots a • man 1. I cannot
d.elihe him so well as my Honourable Friend has
dose. Is he not one of those extritorilioary men
whim Providenue creates to bring about those great
and extraordniary revolutions. which in 004 Cr
three thousand veers are produced Is he oot nn-
psrelleled in the history of the world, both as II
tmlituy man, and for general action? I say h, is
the greatest Mil that hoe nem appeared on the face
of the earth. 1 speak nut of his morel I:lllr.teter :
I speak of the energise of hos mind. I um ready to
stint that his vices may be etre' to his tot.e.to.
sod his ambition equal to the powers of his in-
tellect. He commands people too. who are
es ambitious as himself. I know tint in what pe-
ntad they have not been actuated by their sleds.
lion— t is their prevailing passioa. Here then
is this eetrnortlitrary m m, wielding the greatest
power that ever wits placed in the hand of any mut-
ual. ennunendiug a Action ready to make any nacri-
t:•r to promote his sod their own ambition, and this
cavalry is the only remaining power with which
soeh an enemy has Co contend. i)o not let us flitter
oarsdees by .opposing that he is ',bagging reluctant
annirsinto the field—depend upon it that the autip.-
thy of the French nation loaned* this sionnter. will
support and stimulate the Emperor of Frau, e to
ampley the energies of the powers he penis -*se* to
your destruction. He is willing to enter into any
contest ler gratify-Ins ambition—they err - to
support him, to gratify their own ; for the inseiilte
of Frillier know. that if they can put doe es Eng-
lund, they are the undisputed masters of the world.
Is it nut. then, particularly sieceisery, that you
simuld see how von cats consolidate the fonts
of this empire. 'When you are inked only to g*
coald
iatos Cna ebe acee
tillttee.saion order
to seeer.ee how fair this ob-
jertst wise for is suttee.
min to tabor is it wise or the House of Commons
to sly, that the question h • meg t not even to he tn.
toted
ire known,sPan•until sentiments of the
Catholics
te sake are ev e 67:717.1:1 they are
my to the Catholic Miniver,. sou shall make. 'ftaktveall
to
the advances, but we will toakenone In
a attire i .o ipake
:
mn, it would will become the Legi.l my°P
Ilia Ent adreocit ; it *mad isn't derngate from the
aligi.rourrty..othemarenter, and
_t tolle ehouracter of the Lrgis-
It oo4idt
hocohor the hot &s
se ece to the Catholics.
qui elan, to eel. as th T. Commons, on such
!magnum, but as statesmen.
SI, Hon. Friend behind me this said, that grant
he ery t
C,itvihovltc Emancipation_e when you will. it will
I effect on the tidbit* and pro.
people.ro I have lived loss) among
t'tfirireitilt!'irnilthdiviffisehr.
that the fir-t thin to 117- Clity Hu°.
Fri""y
penile of Irelandgmk, if done
i. to
grant
whathe
_ voiro
in you wish to make them
11"ries.ici The peothr advantages
)6°
Pt""
your-
s e of. Ireland feel insult 'shove
• Y thing it testers in their mind, and rankles
in their hearts. If you knew them, you would
hekg°,764k!l,at: Lori are peoisle whose spirit is not to
are generousupen-hearted.
frisk, an , d liheral
oflo.d
know
01 they arc couragrone. You
at yeti cannot oubilue them lie
keel; the people of Inland are ism to he subdued
bit firer ; you hai
ve tried it for centime* and yea
it
hlreland s not snore secure now'
than it
WAS is snore tronWsturie time.. 'Cue Noble Lord
km said, that many of the evi .ls of which the bids
Prattle. complain, would he done away if the
rat
.netaolandlordsi and wealthy proprietors owe to
them. Nns, what as the sitnas
bail to which redsu I mast speak the truth. have
sad that country ?
(4atteroon
of Honoured its 1 by the
t.„. on me to tell v
thisou
country, it is the more tpees-
"'le.% Sir, the ;ffou what the troth is upon this
fest Ow very ols' rct
cg the Vii,, way to cli-
t of which chthe Sidle Lord
stismks; the natural esct and abject of the Union
Was. to draw Get of Ireland
aittl,n,n of rank n„ I
Karat
ittn.tritt°"t
di,.
part
of rnne•Pfs at least, fir very
14.. k. ,tr soienttheis year, if the Noble turd
„row
oil their
1., and wealthy pra-
t., t
~,,
Ireland,
est-ate., are risc,..ars
at op-al he inu-t try his haul
If thtit cannot lie drone. I
‘ll,l
of ~• w ii
le• •ennle that will have
hut the instil is. satisfying
i the t
117111!"' of this :
enema. Wee sol•ant. I.el
tu-
use
tat'••t"e on.
E.,Tlan I's etuberrast,t7. e ‘cePt
it
the
13'..it'In
"f
1,,,t, if rmt
14n t
no rut:- That is a rn musk,
P•• it!.. 11,14,,,, • "'tat r.er- it g to t..e
snjerS ite f you
C"
Y even
niqune lute the e•AN.:eI 04

tytlics, leg it should endanger the security of
the Church; if you will not have w Committee
on the Claims of the Catholics, upon the week
pretence that the Moyer is not empowered to make
coneessiona, depend mien, it the people of Ireland
. tIl say, that the Union has made them worse, and
that what you refuse they would have obtained
from their one Parliament ; their own Parliament
must have relieved them from their oppresaions.
If you persevere in rs..ais:intg their just preteusiops,
if you continue to di.e.gard their Prtitious, depend
upon it they will think of more dangerous means of
enforcing their claims, and the ability and inclination
of the Emperor of the Frebeh will u it lung leeve them
without that assistance end co-operation they may re-
quire. Are you 11W1111: of what :would be the certain
consequence of their resorting to such dangerous as-
sistance. The Noble Lord lies :ill tided to what L think
ought not to have been made diesel...tete of obliel
ill this House. Give me leavens wham the No-
ble Lord, that the conclusions of his mind are, in my
opinion, the contrary of what ought to he his duty .
It is mot the duty of a Member of Parliament to
consider what should be the particular individual
minion of the Soveriegn who wears the Crown;
hat it is his duty to recommend that the Sovereign
should he informed as to whet will he most likely to
promote the iittere.ts and Impietiess of his -abject.;
and the proop4ity of his dominions. It is to a con-
trary conduct that so large a portion of the subjects
of His Majesty are labouring ultd.•r such unmet.' eel
disabilities and oppressions--the great evil awl
has been. that His Majesty's Ministers are and have
been too. goo 1 courtier*. His Maj•sty'a Attesters
ought to tell the Sovereign the truth, even though
it should nut he agreeable to him. If his opioion is
different from theirs, it is their duty to induce I •
to change it• or fur them to my that they do not
feel it consistent with their duty to remain its
his service. The Americius war was not put a stop
to by any private representation to His Majesty
on the part of his MiniatersHis Majesty's Mine.
eters had no: virtue enough to make such repre-
senbdium—The Aineriente war was stopped by the
voice of the People, and by the votes of ties Heim.
It is the duty up ni the present occasion, as it was
on that, mod is with regard to every quettiou, the
duty of Parliament to let the Soverei_o Lime whet
are its opinions and sentiments. I remember what
the House of Commons told King William, when
he refused his nayol *seem to a measure which had
ima.evt both Ilona s ; they earned an Address to
the. King to say that they did lament that those
who had access to his royal ear. should have given
him edvice contrary to what was given him by
the two Houses of Parliament. that they thought
it his duty to listen to his Parliament and eat
is. those who gave him ill-suited and evil cowl-
say. lire it is the ditty of Ministers
to come into the service of their Sovereign, and to
remain in his service, free from may restreint, bowl,
or obligation, but that which is imposed upon them
by ■ just sense of their duty to. their King and
to the public, and I camint but think, that
erl,en • Ills Majesty was advised to demand a
written pledge of Ilia Ministers. that they would
not mention a particulate subject to him. Ile. Ma-
ray win advised to do what lets more once:mitts-
timed than an thing that had been done by may
Severei4o since the reskes of James the Second.--
Give use levee to say, thet such unconstitutional
udeite has never proepercd re this couutry—it has
lost or America. By its (itch effects and influence,
we hare seen every State on the Cootinent ruined
and • overthrown. It its, therefore. the duty, as it
is the interest of Parliament. to give the Sovereign
such ad% tee as will prtvetit him from hawing Ireland.
Think au what yreir owe situation would be, if
Ireland should be lust to this country. You
never will be able to secure Ireland by continuing
the conduct yen have hitherto pursued towards
that country. If you proceed io the carne course
yost have doer, you may be assured that either
during His Majesty's life, or in the reign of his
5itC1!..144.0f, there will be a couvubion in that un-
happy c try, that will either have the effect of
hoeing the routery, and placing it ender the power
amid euntrool of the enemy. or make it a scene of
bloodshed, devastation, and ruin."

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, SATVIIDAY, MAY 6.

Mr Be gave notice that he would, ton Monday
neat, move for leave to brim: in a Bill to regulate the dace
of the Public Treasurer in Ireland.

The Escliequer Bills Bill was read a third Cate sad
mimed.
The !mad Tex Rilt was real a second time, awl ordered to
be committed on Sho
lay.
(la the usotion for the Howe to resolve itself into a COM-
mittee ma the flax Seed OA Mr. CA LCR AFT totior..3ine.l of
aorprise, having tiadtrstoutl, merely hi Aceid,lit, that the
Iluose would sit an a Saturday.
. . . .

Mr. Psatra•Al. it Was moll, at the of the
%titian, for the sake of experlstisitt such Rill. as wet.' Dui
Iskrly to prsnltsee any objection; lost, of tht re were any of
ticit sort, they should stand over milli Monday.
Mr Rasa spoke to the same eftect.
The Sri A t tn. Rho said that it was eusatemoury.

Mr. (:• Lua Alf T admitted that Dom of .the order* were
likely to iwoiltiee oppositioa, hot he eamplaiaird that the ta-
lent:eat to it w SAtarday was ant generally known.

After a 1.44 obsarvatiLas from tic Ca of Ole
f.ictet Runs, Mr. WH•QTOY, MIA Mr. CA .GAIT, the
Hume went Into a Cosunattee on tire Flax Seed BM. TM
report adored to be received as Monday.
---------

each Szeutities were required. Read a first, and ordered to
be rend 1 beCl.Mti tint(' ou .# Anal. I sy, and printed.
Mr. WHARTO% brought in the Pentium Doty Rill, whirl)
was rend a first and ordered fur a %MOTO rending nanlonday.

On the Mot ism of Sir J. tin Arl .1:4 the en:rosse.l DOI front
the Lnds, empowering the Man arid Chapter of Croterhary
to grout orrtaiu leases thcrem nansA, was r►nl a fivtit. and
°tamed to be read a second time .—Ardjinartted to Jlonday.

NEW THEATIIR ROYAL, COPRNT-GARtaN

Thi; presto, MON pAY„ Nut ae, ism will be dieted

t►ING 3611 W

John, Kin of England, Mr. enstite ; Falrembridge,
Mr. C. Knuth:a ,• Philip, King of Prime., Mr. Merrry.
Queen Mrs. Westnei; ihfl Ludy Couidance, Mrs.
Kiddona klanrli, of Castile, \liaa TICIAIOII.
• After •hieli, .:;at Muir et New C.nnie Paninsaiene, called
ILARLE‘II'IN PEDLAR
0:1, THE HAUNTED WELL.

Harlequin Pedlar, Mr. 113.ililas, Jul., Clews, Mr. Gri-
maldi ; Columbine, Miss Adams.
• new Musical Aiterpiere, avid a new Comedy. milled The
Widnes Ouly Sda, are 1111 rehearsal, and will be produm.d as
sum as possible.

••• The Office of this Paper is removed to No. i 07, Strand,
opposite Nee Lyeetias Theatre. It is requested that all
Lem's, ihders, he. fur the Paper, say be directed

accord ill' y,

$4l Tite Itt;tith P,rt of to-morrow will contain !R• JOON
Co/ 111Petst.a•'s speech, on Friday se'imigig. when ►e
seconded Ilr. G 's motion, rcver the • Catholic
Fria the high authurito s on which ►is argument
rests, and the great deference ts.id attention paid to it by all
particavehe wort►y Baronet's speech moat be an ohjcet of
great iutere.d, to all she wish to parsers a complete know-
ledge of the real merits of the ynestios. •

TILE _BRITISI-rPRESS.

are talLiß
end Prose
I their lips
hrther
at liming,
tested'', I
Bowe to
lionouraL
in all his
be to ca
sat trio I
that there
by growl.
of that co
contrary,
err, u, t h t
not
14
the chola
II
extent.—
%
tan bt for
Conuustt.
err a den
1,
concessiu
expect go'
thee nut
yga--the
future co'
go into
nose we
titian, w
Pr6l*-1
WI that c
a, by our
Cuuntiit
oxpecliet.
%he gr4ll
tied fol
•
]latish C
trulir cI
What is
thithient?
C mti.ten
per.on ?
je.:•eihe I
t
I
done. .
whom Pr
and extr
•I three tho
p.raltelei
inslitiry
the treat
nf the ea
I speak o
th
and his
tellret.
os ambit'
glad they
tion—t
61.;•