Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-09-09 00:00:00

THE NORTHERN TIMES.-LIVERPOOL, WEDNESDAY) SEPTEMBER O 1857,

his remarks were not directed against the vestry.
as a body. He thought any gentleman on
reading the speech must come to the conclusion
that They were directed against the vestry as a
body. (Cheers) The Bishop now singled out a gen leman
who had ceat ed to be a member of the vestry since lest
March, and ho likewise mentioned another member of the
vestry occupying the position of chairman of the Indu-trial
Schools' Committee. When Mr. Jones made a speech a
month age, it was distinctly understood that it was the
speech of Mr. Jones in reply to Mr. Doyle, and that it
was not the language of the select vestry, or of the
industrial Schools' Committee ; therefore, he thought the
bishop had been exceedingly unhappy in his attack upon
the vestry. He maintained that the vestry stood above
suspicion in that direction, and, although in some instancs
they might hive done wrong, yet, he believed, that the
inhabitants of Liverpool would do them the justice, in
regard to their spirit of toleration and fairness, to say that
there were no ju tifiible grounds for the charge which had
been made against them. (Cheers.)
The CHAIRMAN said, if the speech was to be the subject
of discussion, it would be well to have it read. (Cheers.)
Mr. BAIRSTOW begged leave to add, that Dr. Goss was
pleased to compliment some members of the Vestry for
Icing superior to prejudices. He for one, required no
compliment at the hands of the 87.h0p or any other man
when ho had the approval of his owe conscience and
straightforward integrity. He did not require the applause
of any man.
Mr. WIIITry said Dr. Goss did hotaelenowleilge the report,
although perhaps if he had seen it he would have done so.
He said he had seen the report of his remark in another
local paper, not the Liverpool Journal.
Mr. OWEN : There was only one rep, t.
Mr. Worm : How do you know ? Have you read all
the Liverpool papers ?

Mr. ON:VEN : .hare.
Mr WIIITTY : We have no right to read the report in
the ..Tournal, as the report of Dr. (loss's words.
The CIIAIIDIA,N : Ile acknowledges that the zeport is
substantially correct.
Mr Woury : By no means—he says he has not
seen it.

After some discussion the nagsages in the report were
red to which the correspondence had reference, and of
which the substance was there contained

Mr WIIITI Y said the beginning cf that discuision re-
mindtd him of the passage in Scripture where the woman
was taken in adultery. There was an extraordinary
reluctance to threw the first stone. He was surprised
to find that Mr. Beirstow, who had always hitherto been
an upright and impartial member of the Board, was the
fiat upon that occasion to take exception to the Bishop's
remarks. He would not have been surprised at
the observations mee'e by Mr. Beirstow, if the
Bishop had not sent his explanatory letter to
the Board ; but that letter he thought was as
clear and satisfactory es it could possibly be, and described
the exact state of his lordship's feelings upon the occasion
when he delivered the speech. For his own part he could
not but express his very great regret :hat any cause should
have arisen to produce that correspondence, but, at the
same time, he should confess that he was not astonished
at the occurrence at all The course of intolerance and
the spiri' displayed by certain members of the Board from
time to time, he felt confident, must some day have its
natural result in the shape of dissatisfaction among the
Roman Catholic population. He had freq :ently, in his
place as a member of the Board, and still more frequently
in his place as a member of the Industrial Schools Com-
mittee, urged upon the particular gentlemen that the course
of policy which they thought it their duty to adopt must
create deep dissatisfaction among the Roman Catholic
body in the town. He had repeatedly urged that fact, as
well as the unfairness of the course, upon them, withsut
producing any possible effect. The foolish prejudice which
imputed to every Roman Catholic, the moment he opened
I his mouth, some sinister aed underhand intention, vulgarly
and most improperly termed " jesuitry," and which
would receive nothing from him in pod faith or good
feeling, prevented any suggestion of his from carrying
the weight with the Board or the committee which one
coming f om another gentleman vroald have. That untsi •
and unwise prejudice hid prevented a Larmonioua working
at the Industrial Schools' Committee, or at the Board,
upon religious subjects. There wal an assumption in law.
or, at all events, the practice was in existence, which took
it for granted teat .vary child who was not shown to be
otherwise, belonged to the established religion of the
land. Now, that assumption was practically a very g eat
grievance, because it was based upon a direct falsehood.
Every man in the community, and especially every gentle-
man belonging to such a board as that, knew very well
that a number of the children who found their way into
such institutions, although unsupported by any evidence
to show what they were, yet, in point of fact, by parentage
and baptism, were Roman Catholics, Thus, annually, in
this kingdom, hundreds and thousands of Roman Catholic
children were transferred to the established church of the
country. There was no member of a board of guardians,
or a select vestry, who did not know that such was the
practical working of that state of the law. Consequently,
he thought that the greatest zealot on the part of the
established church ought to be satisfied with this
extraordinary gain which fell into that church
in the course of the year. But, in addition to that, there
was a display of the most intolerant and bitter feeling of
hostility against Roman Cada dies, when engaged in the
sacred cause of education, and a desire to oestruct them,
and prey° A them from taking advantage of all the facilities
in th in power for the education of their poor. It was
true that within the last year two e•cleidastics were called
in by the Rev. Mr. Doyle, to assist him in his dudes. He
knew very well, as a member of the Industrial School
Committee, that while these gentlemen attended the
schools, there were signs of uneasiness among the mein-
bare, and the porter at last had orders to forbid their re-
admittance The child Sarah Hawkins, instead of being,
as represented, .a person free to act according to her
con-
science, was a child scarcely turned ten years of age.
Mr. Bout Tow : Twelve years, Mr. Whirty.
Mr. WIIITTY said he distinctly recollected the fact that
the child was but ten years old, and nei her her appear-
ance nor anything else would justify any one in consider-
ing her twelve years cld. She was an inmate of the
West Derby Workhouse. She was there registered as a
Roman Catholic She become an inmate of the Liverpool
Workhouse, and was there again reg:stered as a Catholic.
In January last she was transferred to the Industrial
Schools at Kirkiale ; and, according to the usual
practice, the officer of the inseitutihn wrote down
the names of Protestant and Catholic children on one
sheet of paper, marking off each denomination by
including it in a bracket made with his pen. By some
negligence, the name of that chill happened to occur
between the termination of the two brackets, and the child
was consequently sent to the schools, in a condition some- ,1
thing like Moo. e's " Irish Gentleman in search of a
religion." She was there for a day or two, after which
the proper officer found that she was a wanderer whhout
any religion, and by the appropriation clause of the Poor-
law, immediately converted her into a Protestant. This
came to the l:nowledge of Mr. Carr, the governor of the
workhouse, who sent up a spacial note informing the officer
of his error. The riot e was retained, he believed, in the bands
of the chaplain, and the child was also retained under Pro-
testant instruction for four months. The case was brought
beft re the Board, and the present chairman of the Board
most properly and impartially admitted that great irre-
gularity had occurred, but inasmuch as the child had been
four months under Protestant instruction, ha saw no way
of altering the condition of the child. In other words, a
great evil had bean done, and the Select Vestry was called
upcn to approve of it, and to continue it. Now, nll this
was done in direct violation of a re solution of the sth of May,
185 G, when it was proposed by Mr VT. Jones, ostensibly for
the purpose of putiing applicaions upon a legal footing, bus
virtually, to exclude die. D syle from making any applica-
tions on behalf of children ordering that eponsers and
relatives should apply only on behalf of children. Now, in
defiance of. hat resolution, the child was retained as a
Protestan', and continued so still. With regard to the
cesos of Jet'lll3:', Joseph, and Patrick Fiynn ; these boys
were 14 years of age, \oars very well acquainted with all
matters of religiose they protested strongly that they
wished to be Catholics, and notwithstanding that the
committee ordered them to be sent to church. One Loy
showed so much fidel-ty to his religion, that he petitioned
to be punished rather than sent to church.
Me. W.:. °Nes : That is a bit of poetry.
MR. WIIITTY contended that there was neither poetry nor
over-colouring in his description but the actual facts of the
case. Ali the members must reco'lact the intolerant and
uncharitable displays made there, the hard names app'iad
to Roman Ca holies, and the opposites shown ever in the
appointment of domestic nurses on ace hint of their religion,
and the means which had been used to prevent the ap-
pain ment of three Roman Catholic pupil teachers. These
means had been particnlarly used by the vice president
of the schools' committee. It was folly for the select
vestry to take to itself the great credit of being free
from sectari, n bias, because its history, although it did not
show a manifest intention of doing wrorg, di I not show a
series cf totally blameless acts upon the part of the Board.
With respect to the Bishop's letter he could not but adopt
every word of his tip' nation. He cenld not join in a
wholesale condemnation of the Select Vestry, but the
Bishop did not intend it. He had borne, on the contrary,
high testimony to the integrity and uprightness of many
members of the Boa. d. lie could read an extract from a
pastoral letter of the Bishop's, published two years ago,
in which he referred to the Chairman of that Board in very
high terms. Warning the people against permitting their
children to go to Protestant schools, the Bishop said—
In a late case, discussed before the Select Vestry, the chair-
ram.--a man in whom the gravity of age has chilled the fire

of l'ieotry, and whose honourable pot,i'ion iu his church has
raised him above the religious rancour of young aspirants
to promotion—declared that the father and mother of the
boys Rico " were not parlicularly conscientious as to the
religion of their children, because the father permitted them
both to go to a Protestant school, where they rema7ned
for two years." In the estimation of this respectable
el:trgyrnan, who solemnly repud:atted the charge cf partiality,
injustice, end unfairness, the fact of parents allowing their
children to frequent a Protestant school, is taken as an evidence
of a want of conscientiousness. No one, therefore, can justly
aceuse us of a want of liberality if we urge parents to a con-
scientious diech age of their duty in this respect, and corrpel
them to withdraw their childun from Protestant schools. It is
hardly necessary to say, that with less honourable men than
Rector Campbell, attendance at such schools would be made
v,se of for pn-poses of proselytism. When we n fleet that there
are 1:600 Catholics scattered through the various Protestant
institutions of this town, we at once see the greatness of our in-
terests at stakr.
Mr. JONES ; A very equivocal compliment..
The CHAIRMAN: I never had such a compliment paid to
me before (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Mr. WurTrY : I believe it to be intended as a com-
plimeut.
The CHAIRMAN : Yes, that I have grown old enough to
cease to be a bigot.
Mc. Wurr ry proceeded to remind the Board of the prl-
portion in this town of Roman Catholic ratepayers, who
had all a right to feel dissatisfied with the proceedings of
the Vestry, and having strongly condemned all proceedings
at that Beard which tended to promote sectarian dissen-
sion. concluded his address.

M. W. Jos as did not see why, when a few weeks ago
they had swallowed the camel, there should be so much
of jection to gulping down the little dose administered by
Dr Goss. Too Rev. Mr. Doyle was in daily attendance at
the schools. He was, therefore, necessarily acquainted
with the regulations and discipline of the instituti-an. Mr.
Doyle thought it his duty publicly to make certain charges
against the Industral Schools' Comrnitt e and the Board.
The Industrial Schools' Committee posith ely refused as a
committee to take up the charges with the view of answer-
ing them. By way of cou tesy, he believed, it was
permitted to him to make some son of reply to the charges
at the General Board on the succeeding Tuesday. In the
answer he made to the charges, Mr. Bairstow carefally
protected the vestry from par icipating iu any part of the
answer, and he repeated the caution that morning. So
indifferent was another gentleman who had large influence
at that table, Mr. Woodruff, that he denounced the thing
as irregular. and would not condescend to take any further
notice of it. Now, the charges of Mr. Della were
infinitely more grave 'hail any general charges by Dr
Goss. Mr. Do) le had some sort of candour, inasmuch as
he selected instances. and specified the instances, which he
considered intolerance, persecution, and cruelty. It is
true they were in many cases false, in others misrepre-
sented, but still the vestry as a body permitted them to go
forth to the world unanswered. Under those circumstances
he could not see why there should be so much made of the
ob,ervations which De Goss had thought proper to
deliver in his after-dinner speech. (Hear, hear.)
The CHAIRWAN : Although I am reluctant, for obvious
reasons, to take any prominenl-, part in such a- discussion
as this, I must express my reg-et that an individual,
deriving, as he says, his spiritual jurisdiction from an
infallible source, and who, therefore, ought to be con-
spicuous for the exercise of the highest Christian virtues,
meekness, gentleness, decorum, and charity, should, when
addressing himself, as he says, to " lords, ladies, and
gentlemen," have expressed himself, if correctly reported,
and he admits that the report is substantially correct—
in language which, I think, was little suited for ears
polite, was little consistent with decorum and charity,
and, I am sorry to express my conviction, was little con-
sistent with the simplicity of truth. He has, by implica-
tion, called us bad men. He accused us—accompanying
the accusation with a not very decerous allusion—of
cowardice and persecution. Now, the word persecution
comes with no very good grace from the mouth of a
clergyman of the Romish Church, which, by the mouth of
an infallible council, has enjoined persecution as a religious
obligation.
Mr. WHITTY : Certainly not ; I deny it.
The Coma-nee : The fourth council of Lateran, which is
called infallible, has ordered all secular princes to exert
themselves to the utmost of their power, in the exter-
mination of heretics ; and has declared that if they
refuse to do so, they shall be excommucicated, and their
vassals absolved from their allegiance. The (Council of
Trent has declared that all schismatics, although they
have separated themselves from the church, are still in
the power of the church; liable to be called to) judgment,
punish d,—aud doomed by an anathema to damnation. So,
that of this intelligent and highly enlightened body, which
I have now the honour to address—the Select Vestry of
the parish of Liverpool—only one could be possibly saved.
Therefore, " persecution" comes with no very good grace
from the mouth of an ecclesiastic of that church. (Hear'
hear) But, surely, as used in this instance, it was a
greteeque eaaggeration; even If the charges were true.
What is the persecution of which we are charged with
beipg guilty of? Have we shut up the poor children in
prison—confined thorn to prison fare, as the Grand !
Duke of Tuscany did the Medial. for reading the
Bible? Have we shut them up in a particular
part of the building as the Pope shuts up the
Jews in the City of Rome ? The most recent
act of persecution which I f mey has given rise to this
discussion, was our ordering that all the children, Roman
Catholic and Protestant, should sing a hymn
for grace before meals and a hymn of thanks-
giving after meals. Now this it appears was an offence
ate offence against the ;discipline of the church of Rome.
Little children are not permitted to raise up their voices
together iu joint supplication and thank giving, because
part of them believe. in the Pope and the other part do
not ! Wnat did the committee do ? Did they proceed in
this act of persecution ? No. They said the children
must sing no longer and that grace must be said. Teat
act of persecution therefore eas disposed of, and I think
all other acts of persecution have been disposed of in a
similar way. With regard to myself, I can solemnly
declare, that in every investigation in which I have been
engaged as chairman of the Industrial Schools Committee,
my study has been to lean to what I considered to be the
weaker si le.—(hear, hear)—and to give every liberty
which could posibly be given to the Roman Catholic
clergymen and the Roman Catholic chil iron. Ido not
want to answer for my neie.bnues, but there are certain
of my neighbours who had I believe the same incli-
nation, and I believe that everything has been
conduced fairly and honestly. With regard to the other
remarks of this gentleman, when he talks about the brutal
Elizabeth, the cruel William, and the sottish Georges, I
need not detain you by any reply. I need not retaliate
his allusion to Queen Elizehe h by any reference to the
fires of Smithfield under the mild, maternal dominion of
that Queen who is by some called " Bloody Mary." But
were that gentleman disposed, which I suppose he would
not be, to take any advice from an obstinate heretic like
myself, I would advise him to beer 'his faculties rather
more meekly, and not to speak out quite so plainly. As
St. James says, the tongue, ale hough a little member, can
kindle a groat fire—" it is an unruly evil full of
deadly poison." There are some persons in this country
who flatter themselves with hopes of converting England
to tht Romieh faith, because a few sceptical minds, have
found a refuge from the agencies of doubt in the stupifying
opiate of a supposed infallibility, and because some imagi-
native enthusiasts have been led by se hieing spirits to go
from light to darkness—from the light of the piatitive
scripture truth to the darkness of mediceval tradition. My
hope is, that the heart of the people of England is
sound, and that they are not disposed to submit to what
Lord Palmerston calls a domestic inquisition, which sub;
jects their wives and daughters to the yoke of the con-
fessional, or to the dominion of any priesthood, whether
Roman or Anglican, or whatever its denomination may be.
(Loud cheers.) With respect to Dr (.loss's compliment
to m- self he has said that the gravity of age has tempered
the fires of bigotry, and in,,inuAted that because I happen
to have reacip.d the top of the tree I have nothing to gain
by abusing my Roman Catholic neighbours. I accept the
compliment fir what it is worth. I bear no ill-will to any
man's religion. My motto has been, from my earliest
youth, " Liberty of conscience"—the liberty to hold what
religious opinion I choose, and to worship my God in any
manner I choose. (Loud cheers.) And that opinion has
not come upon me in my old age. I had it at the tim,
when I was troubled with the passions of youth as strongly
as now, when my passions are tempered by age (Loud
applause.)
Mr. WITTY : You have made a statement that it is
taught by an infallible Council of the Church of Rome,
that persecution is a portion of her policy. Now, I ven-
tured to deny that, and Iv. nture to deny it again. I do
not want to enter into any controversy with you. It is
not my place
The CHAIRMAN : I can quote you the canon, if you like
it.

men of every creed have persecuted—of your own as well
as of ours •

The enairtm or : Persecution is not taught by ours.
Mr. WIIIITY : And for a short period of history
probably yours was a persecution with interest. lam not
an advocate cf persecution at all. I feel it my duty to deny
that my church has ever taught persecution at any of her
councils.

The CHAIRMAN The word persecution ought not to have
been used, That is all I meant to say. The Bishop spoke
very liiesutiously.
Mr GIBSON' moved that the Industrial Schools Commit-
ten be requested to prepare an answer to the charges.
Mr. JoN.Es moved, as an amaudinent—" That as long as
the recent charges of the Rev. Mr, Doyle remain officially
unanswered, it is not expedient for this board to make
any reply to similar charges now m de by Dr. Goss "
Mr. Witrrry : I second the amendment. (Laughter.)
Mr. JACKSON suggested that the board had heard quite
enough of it, and that the ehole matter remain as it
was.

Finally, Mn. Gibson withdrew his motion, and Mr.
Bairstow proposed that the fallowing record be in sarted on
the minutes.

This board, having bad their attention drawn to cliarrles
preferred against the " Select Vestrymen, as a class," by Dr.
Goss, in a speech reported in the Daily Fost and the Journal
of the 271.11 and 29th ultimo ; and Dr. Goss having since
admitted that the report is substantially cotrect, adding that
hie remarks apply to Mr. Satchel! anil other individual mem-
bers, and the circurnst.inces having been maturely considered—

Resolved —That this notice of the matter bo recorded in the
proceedings : —This b raid is characterised by Dr. Goss as
" bad men," " persecutors of innocent and 'harmless Catholic
children," for, notwithstanding the irrelevart allusion to Mr.
S ttchell, the calumny was obviously directed against this vestry
as a body. To the call of the Industrial Schools' Committee,
Dr. Goss, out of the large number of poor children attending
at the schools, has rpscifiNl three cases. His allegations,
co-sidcred separately, are as follow :-
Ist. " The Rev. Mr. Doyle," he says, " was refused the
assistance of comment persons in the instruction of poor
children commit ed to his spiritual charge ;" whereas Mr.
Doyle having, in February, 1857, brought two
_additional
priests to th 3 schools, stating that he required their arsistanee
during loot. This arrangement was sanctioned ; and the
priests accordingly attended from the 10.11 February to the
25 h May.
2nd. " Patrick Flynn and James JosTli," he says, " were
ordered to go to church against their will ;" whereas, these
children hatirg come to the schools as Protestants, and the
evidence which was at first submitted to the committee ten ling
to show that they were Protestants, they were on the 15th
July,- required to attend church; but at the committee's
meeting, en the 4th of August, thrso boys having, meanwhile,
expressed a strong desire to bo treated as Roman Catholics,
nfosing to attend church, their desire was gratifi3d.
lA.-Sarah Hawkins, also, would appear, from Dr. Goss's
letter, to have been sent to church against her will ; whereas,
on her admission to the schools, she requested to be treated as
a Protestant, her one e and aunt, her brother and sister being
Protestants ; and, accordingly, she always went to church of
her own free will.

The board, comprising members of variou3 religious pr-
suasiorr, throw back, with indignation the charge of being
religious persecutors; nothing is more abhorrent to their feel-
ings ; they have ever been desirous of respecting the religious
preferences of every person, whether Raman Catholic or
Protestant, placed by destitution under their care. The
calumny was unmerited ; and the remarks which accompanied
it were grossly unbecoming, considering the quarter from
which they emanated.

After some further dissusiion, a division took [lace,
and Mr. Bairstow's resolution was carried. _ _

The Finance Committee's proceedings having been
confirmed, and some unimportant business disposed of,
the board adjourned.

POLICE INTELLIGENCE.-YESTERDAY.

STREET PRE ?CHIN(.