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London, England, 1819-05-11 00:00:00

and to keep in order a battelion of SOO men.—
!
'Pins plan would by no means impair, but, on the
contrary, increase the strength of the army; and
i vet it would save the public no less a sum than
1 .00,000/. more. To this he knew it might he ob-
jected, that by thus reducing the number of batta-
lions, a sufficient foundation would not he left for
the army, should a state oh war render it necessary
to increase it ; hut he did not apprehend that
such an objection could have any force, when the
present enlarged scale of the army was considered—
• scale much larger than any peace Ilestablishinent
hitherto, and three times as large as the peace esta-
blishment immediately after the American war.
It was, he said, perfectly absurd to keep up the
present enormous staff; it gave no strength to the
army, whilst it greatly increased the public expen-
diture. Adverting to items of saving, so necessary
at this period, he did not, he maid, see any reason
tOr the present enlarged establishment of the Mili-
tary College; he thought that a saving might be
made, particularly iu the reduction of the junior
Winches of that establishment. In recommending
the reductions in the army, he did so, he raid, with
considerable pain; it could not be without pain
that he could propose to take from those brave
officers one half of the pittance which they so well,
so dearly. and so valiantly earned; to many of
them he had the honour of being kiiowu. and no•
thing but the imperative sense of public duty
could induce him to make the proposal. When
he looked at the state of the country, the extent of
the public distress, and of public misfortune—when
he saw Petitions every day coining to that House
from the agriculturalists, praying for relief. and
Petitions fruin the manufacturers, praying for
legislative protection, to save themselves and their
families from starving—/Hear)—in such a me-
lancholy and calamitous situation, if he could but
save 1,0001. to the nation, he felt that he would be-
tray his duty if he did not suggest the mode of
saving it. This honest and painful sentiment
would, he trusted. at once, justify hum in the face
of the country and of the army. The Hon. Gen-
demon concluded by moving—
" That, instead of the sum of 2,2211,7761. 11s. 2d. to be
granted for the Land Forces in Great Britain, sad on the
Stations abroad, excepting the regiments employed is the
Fast Indies, from the 24th Deeember,lBls, in the 24th De.
(ember, 1819, there be inserted the saw of 2,138,7781. 11s. Id.
fur the said purposes."
Lord PA ustsmefos said, lie hoped he should
convince the House, that in the army every reduc-
tion had been made—that in the public expendi-
ture every possible saving had been made, as con-
nected with the army, consistently with its proper
foiled aim, and consistently with that system,
which, in event uf a war, would guard the country
from bring involved iii difficulty, in confusion,
and expense. The Hon. Gentleman, he said, over-
rated the present saving; and he under-rated the
difficulties which, were his plan to be enforced,
would follow in the recurrence to a state of war.
In peace, there were two important considerations
with respect to the army : tint, economy; secondly, 1
the best and easiest mode of augmenting the army
iii case of war. He hoped that these principles were
preserved in the present arrangement of the army ;
though lie was not even sanguine enough to hope 1
that that arraimisetoeut, or any arrangement, could
meet with unanimous approbation ; whilst the
human mind remnants constituted es at present, on
this subject particularly there will be different
opinions entertained. The Honourable Gentle-
man, he said, proposed. as • practical reduc.
thin, ii stun of 140,000/. That saving, the Ho-
nourable Gentleman said, would be effected by
the reductiou of three regiments of cavalry and
fifteen battalions of infantry. Now, after • minute
calculation. he (Lord Palmerston) could only find
that instead of 140,000/. there would be effected
but 31,000/.—(Cries of hear, hear, fronts the
Upposition.)—He could go into an enumera-
tion of the iteine.—(Here the Noble Lord went
into a detail of the saving that would accrue
from putting officers on half-pay, clothing,
said different other items of reduction.)—Against
this saving of 31,0001, there would he bounty men
fur the present year—if they were to increase the
number of their battalions. they should pay
bounty to the soldi rs. This bounty money would,
for the present year, amount to a sum that would
reduce the *eying to 13.9001.—f0r the present there
would be a saving of 13,000/. and in fu t u re of 31,0001.
This would be the utmost saving which could be
made. Ile submitted to the House whether, for
this saving, it would be worth while to incur all the
difficulties and inconvenience which must necessa.
rily follow in the event of a recurrence to war—
difficulty and inconvenience that at such a moment
would be severely felt, even omitting the question
of expend... That expense was, however. a serious
consideration ; in the event of a war, by the present
system, the savisig to the nation would not be legs
than a sum of 300,0001. He did not think the
House would entertain the proposition of the Hon.
Gentlemun when they considered the present state
of the army ; the wisdom and necessity of avoiding
any future inconvenience, and the great saving thug
would accrue in case the country was unfortunately
forced into • state of war. As to she observations
cf the Honourable Baronet (Sir Henry Parnell)
respecting public others, he (Lord Palmerston)
had in answer to my, that these oilers were su their
nature totally sod entirely distinct—that they wife
not only distinct but different, and that one was a
check upon the other. It would be utterly intim.
',strut fur the same head to govern all, beams
une was a check ens the other. It would
surely he isicousistent. that the same officer
should furnish and audit his own accounts. A.
to the Military College, the vtaff of that Col-
lege was not mete than iireematy. It was essesittal
to the disciphoe of that Institution that some per.
son should beat its head of professional distinction.
If the limitation were to be kept sup et all, some
distinguished potion, such as Sir Alexander Hope, I,
was necessary, whose professional tektite and high
character was necessary to keep thee College in a
proper state of subordination. As to the alluoiou
that lied been made to the state of the military
expenditure after the American war. it shield
he iecollected that the pay of the soldier is double
snore at the present day titan it wits at that time—
d should also be recollected, that our paemasioas
once that period had greatly increased.-since
that period our peetessious its India increased—
since tlud period we osculated Malta, the helms
Islands, Ceylon, mid ilium*s other plaices. Whets
the extent of our increased dominions, and the in.

4

creased pay of the a-my, was considered—when the
House also recent-cued. that in the calculation of
the Right Non. Gentlenieu the army in Ireland was
iiiit included, they would nut find an. great a dis-
proportion Isetaceii the relative state iif the army
now, and the state of the lastly at the cuuclusion of
the American war.
Sir HENRY PARNELL V 104115.11.
Cuifittel DAMES rose. lie commenced as if to
reply to the speech of Lord Pelmerson, but the
cry of " spoke! spoke !^ obliged him to sit dowu.
Mr. J. P. GRANT said, that the ergum f the
Noble Lord principally rested on Ono, II a the
event of a war inconvenience might art . He
could understand this reasoning, if tlre military
peace establishment was small; but he could nut
understand it now, when that establishment was so
very largo—when there was 25 regiment. of cavalry,
and 91 regiments of infantry, es a peace establish-
ment. Year after year objections were made, he
said, in that House alpinist a standing army. Ile
did not hear any reason why the establishment should
not be on the same footing that the army was placed
by Mr. Pitt in 1793. Arguments against the increase
of standing armies had been often forcibly and do-
quently urged, hut had been never answered iu that
House. Year after year those objections had been
urged—year after year they had been told, that no
further alteration could be made; yet Ministers
did, notwithstanding. reduce the army, and be
had no doubt but that the Noble Lord would be
found pressed by the country and by tiaancial duo
tress to say, th it Obeli Minister. had fixed this army
as permanent, they were mistaken in their calcula-
tion, and tipsta further reduction might he allow..
ed.—(lJere Aire was a loud cry of " Question !
Question !" /Am the Ministerial side of the House.)
--Mr. Grant resumed—Yes; it is a question—a
question of vital impostence—a question *Going
the liberties and the properties of the people. If,
said he, there be a man in this House who thinks
otherwise ; if there be a mini in this House who,
at a period of national distress, feels nothing for
the money of the people; if there be a man
who feels no anxiety fur the liberties of his country,
and who will vote for a standing army, the natural
and the worst enemy of that liberty, let him vote
with the Minister, and then let him return to his
constituents and hear their expressions of disgust
and disapprobation ; for his own part, he would,
he said, year after year, oppose every grant that
might go to the support of a standing army.
Mr. GOULBURN dwelt at considerable length
on the arguments urged by Lord Palmerston on
the increase of our foreign possessions, and the in-
crease of the pay of soldiers. He complained that
the last speaker indulged in declamation, without
entering into particular details.
Colonel DAVIES made some observations similar
to those he had already made.
Lord PALMERSTON said, the statement hr had
made was, that by the plan he acted on, 32,000
men would be kept in readiness to take the field,
should a new war unfortunately break out; the
only additional expense necessary to be imposed on
the country nn such an event, being the pay of the
privates, and that of one Lieutenant to each troop
and company, which would make a saving to the
country of about 300,000/. annually.
Col. Danes said, that on the same principle
the plan he proposed would keep tip 26,000 men.
The Resolution was then put and agreed to.
The next Resolution was read, and, after some
observations from Lord PALMERSTON, agreed to.
On the Resolution for granting • sum of
118,021/. Is. ad. to his Majesty, to defray the
expenses of the Staff of Great Britain, being put—
Mr. Hume said, that in rising to object to the
Resolution, he was desirous of bringing to the re-
collection of the House the recommendation of
the Committee of 1817—that Committee had re.
commenced that the expense of the Staff should
be diminished. The reason alleged for the great
advance in this charge, was the increase of our
foreign dependencies, and a sum of 21,1041. was
comprised in this grant on account of the Staff of
Ceylon, the Cope of Good Hope. the Maurititi.,
Malta, and the lonian Islands. Now, perhaps, the
House was not aware that out of the first four of
these Colonies, the coontry, or the Crown, derived
• revenue of a million and a half sterling, or at least
twelve hundred thousand pounds. This informs-
lion was derived from an official document in his
hand. The Committee of 1817 were of opinion
that the Colouies should be called upon to pay the
expenses of their military establishments, though
they added, that they were not in possession of in-
formation to enable them to give a decided opinion
on that point. The other night, when the Resold-
twins were proposed in the Committee, a question
had been asked by an Hon. Friend of his, a Gen-
tleman opposite, how far these Colonies were able to
bear the charge of their own defence, and he
hoped enough would now be communicated to sa-
tisfy the House of the reasonableness of the charge.
He begged it to be understood, that the whole of
the 1,200,000/. derived from the Colonies lie had
mentioned, was at the disposal of the Crown,
or the Ministers of the Crown. He had always
understood that this House felt a jealousy at
any money bring vested in the hands of the Mi-
nisters without coming under the cognisance of
Parliament. But this revenue answered purposes
useful to Ministers. If they had dependants for
whom they were 'triable to provide at home, they
might stud them out tootle of these Colonies, where
the Governor would find them a place, nay, he had
been told, bad sometimes granted them pension..
The Hon. Gentleman then moved as au amendment,
That instead of 118,021/. Is. 3d. in the Resolu-
tiori. should be inserted the sum of 96,9161. 9s. 2d.
being the difference between the former sum and
the charge proposed for the Colonies.
Mr. GOULIURN said, thequestiou had not merely
a reference to the vote proposed, it went touch
farther, it went to the propriety of retaining the
power assumed by this country to restrict and turn
to her own benefit the trade of her Colonies, on ups
dertaking their defence from external furs; when.
ever that question was brought fully before the
House. he should be prepared to demonstrate the
wisdom of the system we pursued. But there
ass another material charge, a charge against
Ministers of unsapproprienug the revenue of the
loniait Island.. (Jeer these funds, however, his
Majesty's Ministers had no more control than over
these of any indepeudent State. From paper. on
the table, it would he seen, that when these Coln.
toes were placed under the protection of this couo-