The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1825-04-27 00:00:00

• •quit-m•
•
t

411

,

I

t
E

$O,l

t

<<
~: j

Y

' 1*

;

imantipatiotin—A great part of the Interest of my family de-
pends upon forty-shilling freeholders of the Catholic petsuasion, so
that you could not apply to any person who would be less likely to
give you fair information upon that subject; but if you can pre.
van spun the forty. shilling freeholders in England, and upon the
forty-shilling freeholders in the north of Ireland, who are a very
stsidy race of MOO ; if you an prevail upon them, you can do it
with the Roman Catholics, but most undoubtedly it must be a ge-
neral measure; if the objets is • free and fair election—if the object
is, that a man should represent the fair sense of thctonnty, un-
doulinlly the forty-shilling freehold system is entirely against
their it is this forty-shilling freehold system that gives the Pro.
reetant ascendancy in the country, because there is my Lord
be has three thousand registered freeholders upon his estate, and so
have many others ; they go with the Protestant landlord, id they
extinguish the Roman Catholic interest, consisting of ruidille-men
and farmers.
" 110 not you think it would be impossible for a landlord to pur-
sue the Rower which a landlord has in his hands, of ejecting them,
against weds a body as three thousand ?-14.here is the running
half-yesr's rent, he has the power of distraining fur die running
half-year's rent."
Where is the Member for any county in England who would dare
tolend such language of his consituents ? Ile did not mean to
blame the Right Hon. Gentleman, far from it; he thought him
entitled to the thanks of the House and the country ; but he would
repeat, who was the English county Member wile would venture
sin such a declaration ? If any there was, he most certakily would
receive, as the reward of his temerity, his dismissal at the
NM election. (Cries of Hear, bear.) 11' there was wanting any
other proof of the necessity of a change in the system prevailing in
Ireland, it was that they were now disco sing the propriety of it.
Who was there that would venture to propose such a measure for
England as they were now about to apply to the corresponding
class in Ireland n It wu evident that the Irish freeholders has no
feeling on the subject ; and when Mr. Blake was asked before the
Committee if he did not think that a great outcry would be raised
among them if the qualificatiou were raised, his answer was m the
negative. He believed they felt nothing on the subject. It was
evident they had nothing to lose ; and indeed their lose, if any,
roust be a manifest gain. It took away the inducement to
-commit crime, or rather the necessity of perjuring themselves,
to swear to the amount of a freehold they did not enjon. The
Honourable Member, after some further remarks, went on
• to say, that the people of Ireland should receive the pre-
sent act as a boon, as one equally binding on both the land-
holders and farmer. The former it would prevent from cutting
up his estates, to make a horde of venal corrupt free-lenders; the
landlord, lie was sure, would better consult his own interest and
mpectcbility, if he boldly submitted to the tribunal of public
opinion, and he was satisfied that the interest would be large in
proportion. There was another striking feature in the Irish free-
'told system—its manifest tendency to promote perjury, and rem.
eleeinne the people indifferent to the obligation of sn oath. This
arose, he was convinced, from the frequent registration of their
freeholds, and the necessity then imposed on them of swearing, in
many instances falsely, to their value. A very faithful, though
most painful, account was given by Mr. O'Connell. [The Hon.
Member then read several extracts from the evidence of that learned
Gentlemen.] Though much had been said of the novelty of the
present measure, novelty it was none, for many Acts had paned
modifying the right to vote, although every freeholder was entitled
to vote. Originally on possessing a freehold, it was, as the law
TOO stood, necessary to register them within a certain period before
the election. This was the case, except with respect to the electinn
for coroners, under the Statute of Henry VI. With regard to the
copyhelders, it was the opinion of Blackstone that they were the
mere villains of the lord (hear); and every principle that applied
to the copyholder of that day applied to the Irish freeholders now.
The qualification was in the very first instance 401., and if they
kept pace with the alteration in the value of money, the qualifica-
tion ought new to be raised. This, however, he was bound to state,
that there were but few of them in England who did not possess
considerably mote ; they possessed, too. a large portion cf Intelli-
gence not enjoyed by the Irish freeholder. The Hon. Member,
after some fut:her remarks, said that when the measure was intro..
ducsd is 1795, it was likely to increase Catholic Horst; and it
was also stated then confidently, that it would create frauds of every
description ; and indeed that was felt in 1795, when a Bill was in.
'traduced iimitieg the right of voting to those 40s. freeholders who
were occupants; still it was found that frauds were carried on, to
remedy in some measure which, it was enacted that no freeholder
vote at any election unless he register his freehold within one par
vf the election, though before that it was only necessary to
et the expiration of every seven years. And here there was ob-
reeved a manifest difference between the 40s. and the 501. free.
Folder • on the latter the same necessity of registering was not im-
posed. With the former they had now to deal, and It was not an
unprecedented thing to interfere with them. No 10-ter than last
-June, the leer was passed founded on the principle that the
House has the right to regulate the elective franchise, and also
establishing the necessity of applying some remedy to the evils
growing out of the system, and if possible check them. The Act
to which he allut'cd was generally known by the name of Browne's
Act. It was one for preventing the system of joint tenantey, by
taking. away the tight of voting from such freeholders as held Lands
in conjunction with others. [The Honourable Member then read
the preamble of the Act to which be alluded, in which it was set
forth. that the system of forty-shilling freeholds was Its great need
of revision, from the many abuses with which it abounded.] After
-a few onsereations, he went on to say, that he did not know on
what principle of consistency those who had always supported Ca-
' thnlie Emancipation could now refuse their support to the present
Bill, when the Relief Bin was concomitant with it, and indeed
the only means of carrying it effectually ; and it was also incon.
einem. in those who were opposed to the extension of Catholic
influence to withhold their votes from a measure likely to effect
what had long been the Ann of their wishes. The next queen
tien was, whirl the quelifleation should be? Ile would himself
give no opinion on the subject; he would leave it to the breast of
the House to determine what it should be. The sums that natu.
rally unwed were 5, 10, or 20 pounds; this, however, Ise
telt himself bound to declare, that he conseientiouly believed
if the qualification were fixed at Si. it would serve rather to
increase than diminish the evil. (Cries of hear, bean)—
It was his opinion, that if the qualification was raised as high as
20/. it would disfranchise so large a number of the middling elastics
of the people, that there would not be any longer a fair expression
of public opinion on the merits of candidates at elections. Ilia de-
cided impression, after every consideration, was in favour of the
PM qualification—ea sum which would leave the pewee necessarily
reposed in an elector precisely in those bards which were the least
likely to surrender their independence, either from fear of their
landlord, or from the hope of gain by the individual candidate.
He now came to the advantages which were likely to result to the
courtry from the measure he proposed, and ie the first place he I
would mention its operations, as a bounty to the setdeinent and
continuance in Ireland of that middle class of yeomanry, whose
absence the Members of this House, and the landowners of that
country in geueral, had so often, so justly, and so feelingly de-
pleeed--an absence to which the great increase and continuance of
pauperism too lied been mettle ascribed. The next advantage
would be the greater security which it would give to the l'noestant
population in inland, agneet the nunetical strength of the Ca-
tholic if he should be celled upon to give his voice fur a Catholic
candlelit.? for if it was admitted, as he understood it was upon all
hands, that the population of Ireland was almost wholly Catho'le,
and the property almost wholly Protestant, be could cot conceive
what opposition could be made to a measure which went to derrive
those sr.en cf power' whose influence was most likely to be exerted
in opposition to the Protestant wishes, or whose hosidity was most
likely to prove injuriwis to Pmtestant interests ; and he trusted that
no reasonings,
.founded upon isolated facts, or applicable solely to
particular districts, would have say effect in defeating the Finn
MOM of a Bill so well calculated to guard agaitst any evil effects
arising from concessions to the Roman Catholic ho 'v. The ergo-
menu in favour of this Bill might be rested, and indeed he in-
tended they should rest, upon the opinions of two gentlemen who
bad been examined before the Committee on the state of Ireland—
gentlemen whom he had selected, not only front their distinguished
situation in the country, and the great talent and judgment rain-
liked in their evidence, but also from there being no two men he
could name whose opinions norm Catholic Emancipation were more
opposite and cotoredictory ; he meant the lion. nleniber for Lem!,
(Mr. LasEe Foster) and Mr. Blake He (Mr. Littleton) repeated.
that while lie could hardly select any two men whose opinions were
more at variance upon eubjeets connected with Catholic affairs in
general, yet it happened, that upon this question there vas a rc-
marked. coincidence in their sentiments, and he even could rot
help expressing his conviction, from a perusal of the evidence of the
Hon. Mer ner for Louth, that he (Mr. Littleton) would have his
vote and support upon the gunnel' this night before the House.
The lion. Gentleman then proceeded to read the evidence to which
Ire alluded ; the first was that of Mr. Leslie Foster. It stated, in
:answer to a questil3 as to his opinion of the present state of the
elective franchise in Ireland, that lie had no hesitation in enring,
however bcantiful the system of forty shilling freehelas
seem in theory, in practice it was anything but Mmecial to reel
freedom, and that the only consequence of granting that per :r
of voting to the lower class of the peasantry. had been the
ralsieg a question between the priest and the ler.llJr.l, ns
to which wrs to have the control of the unfortunate pe...ant. I
answer to a further queerion as to whether the priest tint interfered.
the same gentleman (Mr. L. Foster) stated that they (the pries I.
could and had controlled the peasantry it; oepeeition to the
whole power and thriotened vengeance of a !xenon.. it, then ire .
sinned Mr. leeleion) tire great alarm of the. 800. Alen:bey tar
Louth, upon the stihject of the power thus placed in the
pesnint under the dominion of the priest be ciireinered, on wine
possible principle can that Hon. Gentleman object to a meaner
whit!) will iltog g •t' er take away that power, or else diminish th•
ninnber of throe who use it, so as to render it nearly harmless ? Ile
(Mr. Littleton) could not contemplate any objection, nor indeed an-
ti...pate any thing else than that Hon. Geedeinan's most powerful
support to the ona,ure he proposed; and ifn as appeared in
another part of the eeidence. that gentienuus thought the raising the
goal' ticatien to 201. not altogether satisfactory, he (Mr. Littleton;
eeeected the ff(l3. Gentleman's enprobstion even then, for
we •1,, have the power to till up the blanks as he in Jught proper, 0,-
1,601 3^y sum which might be thought expedient in the considet
tie- of the House. The next evidence he could stilstnit to c..
:-.on of the House was thnt of Mr. Blake:—
•- Can you state what effect the plan of raising the qua!if.cat-on
voili have upon the Protestant interest of the country ?—I thi.d.
tile Protestants constitute. to a very cot:side:able extent. the
:ended proprietary interest of Ireland; and Cho:tore. in pirooort.o:
—ee of the proprietary interest, anti dunini...
rs without property, you terengthen
present the Protestants insist upon
Catholics seek equality ; this equality,
ty, they ought to have, but no farther
were established, it would, I think, satisfy

the Roman Catholics, and certainly would not prejudice the Pro-
testants it would take from the Roman Catholic multitude the
vast pnlitiral power which tie, now possess, and would open to
the Catholic gentry the capacity of enjoying another species of
political power which. they no not now possess--the capacity of
sitting in Parliament; a capacity, however, from which they could
only derive any benefit theinigh the will of the property, Protestant
and Catholic, of the country. This would rot shake the true legi•
timatd ascendency which belongs to the Protestants, in proportion
as they form the preponderating proprietary interest of the ceten-
try t on the contrary, it would secure that ascendancy on a rock,
open the genuine sound principle of the British Constitution, which
makes property the basis of all political power and ascendancy in
the State; while the Prometants claim ascendancy on other ground,
the Catholics will consider it hostile, and oppose it but once put
on its tree ground, the Motile character would cease; Protestants
and Boman l'atholles might then regard each other as fellow-
chives, snd uniting as such, render their common country happy
and proeperoue."
This appeared to be good Mete and sound reasoning, and lie
(Mr. Littletna) would be content to rest the suppoet of his case
upon this and the preceding testimony, without any further abut,
vations, were it not that he found all the arguments that he could
require embodied in one eloquent and impressive passage:—
" Do you think that the settlement of whet you call the Ca-
tholic Question, and the making a peorision for the Roman
thitholic Clergy, such as they would be willing to accept of. would
or woull not he calculated to give additional security to the Pro-
testant.Establishment in Irelend ?—t thick that settlement, open
wise and sound principles, would be above all others a measure cal-
culated to give strength to the establishment, and repose to the
country. 1 think the present state of the law is obviously erroneous;
it is calculated net to secure. but to endanger the Establishment ;
it creates had feelings, aid aft oils no security against them. The
Act of 1793 took things at the wrong end ;it elevated the lower
orders, and left the higher in a state of depression. The security
of the Protestant' is Ireland is in the strength of property against
numbers ; what you have done is to grant to the Roman Catholics
a privilege in which number tells against property. and to with-
hold a privilege in which property tells against number ; you allow
the lowest orders of the people to vote, and you do not allow the
higher ordere to pet. I certainly sheuld consider, in the settlement
of the Catholic Question, if ever it is to be settled, that the quail.
ficationfor the eaefelle of the elective franchise in comities, ought to
be reviewed and aliered."
Now` he (Mr. Littleton) repeated, that he cared not from what
isolated fact, or peculiar nitration of local interests, arguments
might be drawn in oppoeition to the projected alteration ; he
held an opinion with Mr. Blake, that by taking from the number
of Catholic voters they strengthened the Protestant interest. He
did not feel called upon to anticipate objections which might be
advanced against this Bill, or to examine what might probably
be the vote of any particular Mereher upon it as a euestion of
policy hut he felt himself bound to state, the: he had been pressed,
both in the House and out of doors, to abandon the disfranchise-
ment he proposed, and move the appointmeot of a Committee to
regulate and modify the present system. In the tint place, it was
in evidence, in both Hotreee of Parliament, that this measure
would check a great evil at present casting; and in the next, It
was admitted on all hands, that to apply any remedy founded
upon a continuance of the' present machinery, would add
tenfold to the evils and miseries they proposed to relieve.
lie was nor, he rimy observe. here without a hope that the harsh
epithet applied to this measure by the Honourable Member for
Corte Castle (Mr. Rankest), on its first introduction—that it was
odious, arbitrary, unconstitutional, .and tyrannical, (hear, hear.)
might be much mitigated by the change be had now felt it his duty
to propose. •Much of that opposition he felt, however, might lie
placed to es connection with another great question, to which that
Honourable Gentleman had all his life been opposed, and to
the apprehension. that upon that question he might be, from
the demotion of his rank., left alone to maintain the hopeless con-
bat. That defection had already begun to operate not only among
the young recruits, whose ardent minds had turned with hasty
scorn from the severities they were called upon to perpetuate ; but
also among the veterans, who had shared fir a long aeries of years,
his repeated disasters auddefeeta. (Hear, hear.) That defection
watald, however, in despite of all the Hon:Gentleman's opposition,
continue to increase, for he was NM that the time was at last ar-
rived when they could not remain stationary any longer, and when
it was felt that they must grant that which it was no longer safe
to refuse. (Hear, hear.) But if there be any man who denies the
necessity of that concession, and who would prefer crushing by the
arm of
.power the dissatisfaction which must arise from a refusal
of the just and necessary claims of the people of Ireland, he (Mr.
Littleton) would not deny, that they could do It, although he could
not praise the nerve of the Minister who would silence by force the
complaints of a whole people at the risk of future internal security.
If however, there was a disposition to adopt more liberal and pru-
dent measures, in the management of the Catholic Body, when,
he would ask, had there been such an auspicious moment for the
commencement of a change of policy ? The whole Catholic popu-
lation, priest as well a+ layman, were willing to make more conces-
trions now than ever they proposed before. What could be more
illustrative of their strong desire to propitiate the favour of the
English people and Parliament, than their coming forward at the
present moment, to sacrifice their long-cherished freehold, as a se-
curity against the fear of their desires to aggrandise the Catholic
Aristocracy ? What could be a stronger Pledge of future peace
than their desire; if these securities were accepted, to bury all past
transactions in oblivion? flaying thus stated shortly to the House
his grounds for proposing the present Bill, he felt himself bound to
say that he differed upon this question from many of his constituents,
whose opinions he highly respected. Three men, whose feir and
honest hostility he did not mean to question, were mostly of the
middling orders of society, and lee had observed, not only with
them bin with others, that the cbjectious were now much more reli.
glans than political. The same effect might be observed in Parlia-
ment; and he hoped they would shortly witness such a total revo-
lution of oplition u would put an end tii all religious and Pull
differences, for until Parliament consented to do justice to the
people of Ireland, there never would be either peace or union.
The Honourable Gentleman sat down amidst cries of " Hear,
bear," and enlist for Mr. Brougi.a.m.
Mr. L. FOSTER, however, presented himself first to the notice
of the House, and observed, that he hail been induced to offer
himself rims early, from the allusions which had been made to
his evidence by the Hon. Member don Staffordshire: that eel.
tierce had been given in another place, under the most solemn
and tieceeearily expressed his unqualified opinions of
the syetem. Ir. proposing great alterations m long-established
measures it was expedient that they should clearly see the way be-
fore them; hurt he thouelit the rood pointed out by his lion.
Friend was likely to lead to much greater difficulties, and place
them in a more infelicitous situation than the one they sought to
eseare from. He (mild only say that if his Hon. Friend, in-
stead of striving to catch votes, would apply his remedy where
evil really is, and where fictitious votes now exist (hear, hear),
he, for one, would give him his support. But the Hon:Gentle-
man's Bill would pace matters on a footing more objectionable,
am: produce evils more dangerous, and practices more demoralising,
than any which at present existed; for while it avoided meddling
with nay friehald, e hers it assumed the appearance of • fee-
simple, and diefrare hind these who held only for life, it would
at once rut off rine-tenths of all the voters in Ireland.
'role urns all Act of whir believed., that House hml heard very
hole, if it had ever he 11...! of it at all, which he would now bring
wider their eowdderaiien, to show what class his Honourable
Priced would malt:: rrt.doo:cn;:lt in Ireland. This law, passed
without oh-cern:lm. see the I Ith chapter of the Ist of his present
31e'eete. and eel " an Act for the better regulating of Polls
at tileelione. No ore wired probably suppose, that under such a
tele. a whole host of Irish peasantry had been admitted to the
7. ri, ilege of emcee. This Act, which he believed they owed to the
1 1o:um:Palle Member for the Queen's County, (Sir 11, Parnell)
totally altered tit: state of freeholds. Before that time, a person
wishing to register a freehold, under the value of 214., was come
p lied either to produce his title or occupy the !and himself; but
now, if the freeholder chose, he might qualify, without either pm-
thicilig the title deeds or swearing to residence; and the conse-
(ponce was, that by erecting hovels on pieces of waste ground and
commons, they hetre.ereseed the voters to such an extent, as would,
if they withdrew the others, still leave a number large enough, in
many Mares, to return both members. These persona have no
landlord—no right—no thle—but unlawful possession, and yet they
:ire the teen :dew,: others the most likely to be exposed to those
temptations. 3-A. to be guilty of those practices, which my Honour-
hie Friend's Fitl wielles to put an end to. I ask, therefore, if I
a., pp r. t ine l lon. lend, will he Ito the length with Inc of destroy-
in.;
It he it:" do th I will give my rote. Before he sat down he
would say, that by Cu; allowing a vote even toe freeholder of 101.
unless he was rated to the county for two acres of land, they
iield go a great way to exclude that class of voters who
were 'hide, incriseing, lie was sure, that unless some such
'reason: was adoetel, every county possessing a common, or
few edges of hoe., would turn out its two or three thousand
%mere. IVa., this Lill to apply to all freeholds in fee or fur life,
eievol to be fictitious ? That le" had not been able to collect ; but
ieere was one dos.—the freeholders of towns—which had no con-
• -:den with the class of fictitious voters, and which should be er-
. _feed from an the penalties of their transgressions ; they are not
toe mercy or sny :arbitrary landlord, nor of that body of ignorant
n:-'• , nen which his Him. Friend thought unlit to enjey
' ! • Ihe calls for Mr. Ilruughan here becoming loud

THE BRITISH PRESS.

. •
;, • rose and said, that he approached the
• i • 'a cucittio, with great anxiety, from the
..• •. • . • posse,ied upon the subject, and
. ~• „..• •.:. ty from the very awful eireumatances under
•. • t •i!,J upon to disatuts„it.—awful circumstances, he
iilll,,,Ke the subjvci, of immense importance, and in-
% great co: stitutionalquestiuna at any time, was rendered still
by the nraiiier in which it wag brought under their
:. choice was left to them whether they would entertain
thit trtstioo not—no ;lowa was,left to them of avoiding the die-
russum, sk-her thee wunlii or not ; whetlicr it was convenient or
tine I,t was li • it:4 upon their attention as part and
or vneto•tr,i llon. 3lernher fur Westminster
, • : iieJ introduce:l for the relief of the llortan
h it t..n to go. p.-; throne' that House, to he
tits! ilte 5:c0,..ti reading of the Hon. Baronet's
--:0 r • • i a l time while the Honourable Baronet's Hill
a 0.• . .. t. _to be hi a Committee when that fill wet
••••• 7‘1‘;;;II every stage, banging upon the fate of
, • • •. I:, • c se tld observe, that he had heard a clause
i.e I , I. c in not of the stages, taking as a security
, • It e that it should not take erect until
they ha -e pai,eti another Bill through the Mouse.
filis was a soLvii,at legisiitron such as he had never heard of
I:eltre, in ii!,y body, co:pin ire o.• other—such as had never, he
vei.tu:: to ,at, I In ihe hi,iory of that lionse before.

For what was it but to say--" blind, unless you do so and so—
another thing to be mentioned—ell you have already done goes for
nothing." This formed the chief part of his difficulty ; this was
the cruel alternative held out to them. Prom the moment he had
first been able to form an opinion, he had been an advocate of
Catholic Emancipation. From the first time he had obtained é seat
in that House, the Catholic Question had always his vote and
advccecy teemed this was now the cruel alternative—this was what
he had to complain of, that as a friend of that great question, he
most either vote for a measure which had no necessary connection
with it, or run the tisk of losing that question altogether.
And this he was coiled upon to do on eridence unsatisfactory, nay,
contradictory, soil en evidence not only contradictory, but upon a
partial inveetigeteoneam an inquiry in which those only who enter.
reined similar view. and objects were examined. It was, he would
repeat, a cruel predicament to be placed in either on this Imperfect
information, given before the Committee on the State of Ireland,
to support this measure, not the least of the objections to which
wan, that on the very face of it, and at the first appearance, it
sounded of disfranchisement, or to withhold his support from it,
and in doing so to subject himself to the charge of frustrating that
great measure to which the present was stated to be proposed as an
inducement. It may be that this present Bill, which now sounded
so ung ely, was a sound one ; all that he was desirous to do
was to uanl against a dogmatical opinion upon so important a
question, on the scanty ground of information of which the House
was at preser.t in possession. It might deserve the encomiums that
had been pronounced upon it by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Littleton),
but his (Mr. B.'s) ground of objection was, that he did not know
enough to determine whether it was so or not. He knew only that
it was a great, en enporteet, and a novel measure, and that was a
suiecient reason for him to hesitate upon its adoption until inquiry
into it had satisfied him of the beneficial effects likely to result
from it. In support of this measure, his Honourable Friend
had mainly relied on the evidence of the Honourable Member for
Louth 51r- L. Foster), but if be relied upon his testimony
he would be likely to find that he was misled. Take the
evidence of this Honourable Member—a Member of your own
House, and of the very Committee instituting this inquiry, and
upon his own evidence it would appear that lie was wholly against
the Bill : for the Honourable Member has here stated, that his
evidence bore no such meaning. (Hear, hear.) His opinion went
even further than that of the lion. Mover of the; Bill, for he was
disposed net only to disfranchise those who had lease for liver, but
also 40s. freeholders who had a fee simple ; they were, he thought,
too numerous a set altogether, and the cause of disturbance and
alarm at elections, and in order to give greater weight to the 50 and
70 pound freehold voters, be would adopt a still more extensive
scale of disfranchisement than was proposed by the present Bill.
If this could not be done, he would not support the meaeure, so
that upon his own construction of his evidence, it was adverse to
the present Bill. With this very partial and unsatisfactory evidence
on the subject, he was justified, he thought, at least In pausing
before he consented to the disfranchisement of a large body of
people, who had lung enjoyed an important political right, by
voting for a Bill which would deprive them of that right, and pre-
vent others from hereafter acquiring it. (Hear, hear.) Amongst
the persons tied bodies who were favourable to this measure was
one sect—a very considerable onein the present day—• very
triumphant one, and, he should add, a very intolerant one—
he meant intolerant in their politics and in their writings against
those who ilifeerol from them in opinion—that was the sect of
Political Economists. They had been most unsparing in their con-
demnation and censure of his (Mr. B.'s) friend, Mr. elalthus, and
that for no other r ason than because he differed with Mr. Ricardo,
not on a practical question, but on one of the nicest points—
metsphysics. This sect regarded those who differed from them as
incomprettensive of their real interests. They were inclined to
dogmatize on every question, and the reason that they gave their
dogmatical opinion in support of the proposed measure was, that it
would tend to correct two evils of great magnitude at present existing
in Ireland. First, that it would cheek the excessive growth of popula-
tion in that country; and wily, that it would check the subdivision of
property, an evil mainly consequent on the former. Now, on re-
ference to the evidence it did not appear that these evils would be
erected by the passing of this Bill ; besides, though it were, and
passing over the consideration of the absence of any evidence upon
this point before the Committee, these political economists merely
regarded the question as it related to the increase of wealth : pro.
vidid that point was secured, or likely to be secured, they paid
little attention to any other. But there was another point which
in his estimation was nut less important than the wealth of a coun-
try ; he meant its civil liberty. (Hear, hear.) That was mixed
up in the regulations with which It was intended to accompany the
great measure of Emancipation, and a due attention to the pre-
serration of it should influence him on this as on every other occa-
sion. But even what was asserted by the political economists was
not proved in the evidence before the Committee, and he (Mr. B.)
had applied to his Hon. Friend, the Member for Limercick (M. S.
Rice) as to whether there was evidence to show that this
measure would bate a tendency to correct the two great evils
complained of—the excess of population and the subdivision of
property ; and the answer of his Honourable Friend was, that no
such thing had been proved, and that the answer to questions
touching this point were such as might be altogether erased from
the evidence, and left out of consideration on this discussion. But
it had been said that the Roman Catholic body, both clergy and
laity, had deemed the measure of emancipation so invaluable a
boon,of such vital importance to the welfareof Ireland and the safety
of the Empire, that although they were about to make a great
sacrifice, yet, greatly to their honour, they voluntarily agreed to
make the sacrifice, and to accede to thin concession in return for the
more valuable one to them of emancipation. Now first, to examine
this condition, '• although they were about to make a great sacri-
fice." Upon this point one part of the evidence was mate.
rially at variance with another—the Protestants declaring that it
would weaken their influence and strengthen that of the Catholics;
and the Roman Catholics again declaring that It would weaken
their strength and increase that of the Protestants. Such was the
contradictory testimony given by witnesses before the Committee,
as related to this beings sacrifice on the part of the Roman Catho.
lies. But even the evidence that bad been relied upon did not go to
the recommendation of this meuure. It had been said that his
lion. and Learned Friend, Mr. O'Connell, who possessed very
great influence In II rland—and he (Mr. B.) was glad that he might
pawns it while he made the good use of it that he at present did—
it was said that he had consented to this concession on the part of
the Roman Catholics of Ireland; but let the House refer to his
evidence, and, to use a legal phrase, let them see what were " the
granting words" of this concession. Ile says before the Committee
—" I should be glad, though it is a very crude opinion, if the que-
lification were five pounds." He gives this, which he declares to
be a crude opinim, in page 84, but in page 85 he disapproves of
meddling with the forty-shilling frecholikes, and declines to ex-
press any opinion favourable to the raising the franchise at all.
The following question is put to him by the Clemmittee:—" If the
state of society, with reference to rural arrangements in Ireland,was
to be more assimilated to that which exists in Englend, the objection
to forty-shilling freeholders would vanish ?" " in my mind it
would be totally done away ; in my bumble judgment It would not
be at ail right to meddle with them. I have not expressed any
opinion favourable to raising the franchise at all." He is then
asked—" Do you think that that species of improvement in ire-
' land, which there is fair reason to believe exists, has a tendency to
place the social system in Ireland on a footing of similarity to that
of England in that respect, and therefore to correct the forty.sitilling
freeholders ?" " I am entirely of that opinion; I think the pro.
gressive improvement in Ireland is such as is calculated to do away a
great deal of the inconvenience of the present system, and to yen.
der it quite unnecessary, if it ever were necessary to make any
alteration, certainly unadvisable." 'flits was the evidence of
Ole. O'Connell, which, taking it quantum valcal, went to re-
commend, not that they should rush piecipitately to the adop-
tion of such a measure as the present, but that they should
wait until such • progressive improvement in the country
had taken place that the measure might be rendered unnecessary.
To the latter recommendation be was inclined to attend, at bent he
was unwilling to do any thing in it until further inquiry had con.
vinced him of the necessity of interference. What he was unwil-
ling to do was, to legislate on contradictory testimony, or to pro-
nounce an opinion partly misinformed and greatly uninformed as
he now was. He had listened with anxious and accurate atten-
tion to his Hon. Friend who introduced this Bill, as to the evils to
the peasantry of Ireland of which the present system of elective
franchise in Ireland was productive; but in his opinion there was
little of what he had said that would not apply with as much force
to others as to the 40s. shilling freeholders of Ireland. Was not
the lash.or what was of as powerful cogency as the lash, used in this
country, as well as in Ireland ? It WOW used here, but lie ad.
netted certainly in a less violeut degree. Here the pool, were
more independent—their rights were better ascertained-4 had
more privileges—they were less obnoxious to tyranny, had
other advantages over time peasantry of Ireland. Although he
felt with pain the force of the picture drawn by his lion. Friend,
of the evils of the present system of elective flincliise in Ire-
land—of the control and tyranny exercised over the peasantry in
bringing them to the poll on the occasion of a conteste delecuon,
yet, without exaggeration or false calming, he could present
to him a picture of similar control exercised over the forty
shilling freeholders in this country. lie could present to him a
ploture—take a great landowner in this country, who was naturally
desirous of maintaining his family influence in a county : to
preserve this influence he gives leases, not as in Ireland. for lives,
but luaus at will. The names ere not those of O'Dreteoll and
O'Shanglinesey (a laugh), but substitute fur them the names of
Thompson and Jackson, and it will be found that there is very
little dieerenre in the manner in which he is compelled to come to
the poll here and in Ireland. The landowner here says to the te-
nant, "Your forefathers have lived under my family—the land shall
be continued to you and your sons;" he is igduced to qualify to vote
in support of the person from whore lie holds the lease at will; he
pays forty or fifty pounds to qualify as a freeholder, but it is not :or
the freeliold, but from his 'merest In the leasehold, that he Is in.
dueed to vote. To all intents and purposes he is under the control
of the landowner, exactly as is the case with the Irish peasant, but
that the system is carried on here in a less violent degree. It
certainly was as unusual here as in Ireland, to see a tenant having a
lease at will opposing his landlord, as it was to sec any of the
O'Driseulls or O'Shaughnessys in Ireland, who held a lease
for lives. Indeed, the instances were exceedingly few of
any opposition between the landlonls and their tenantry, and
it only occurred where the tenants had leases on parchment.
and bad not merely a tenure at will. But because these practices
existed as they did, had he proposed to disfranchise the 40s.
freeholders in this country ? leo such thing; it is • Israelite
akin to the nature of proptrty, and there was no remedy for it....
There was also an instance of the political influence et' freemen and
of frecholiers in borougits and cities, which were frequently pro-
ductive of extreme inconvenience, by the freemen voting nee way
arid the freeholders the other t but this could not he a reason or
ground of interference with them. Amongst the arguments men. ,
tioned in favour of the present measure was the prosaic ee of per. !

jury, which winhthiehe
egreeenwneounteoffiettense
of qualification. The perjury the present system created was the
principal objection to it. No man would join more aincerely than
be did In the horror of the crime of perjury But why confine all
"tus7oterds.4°:rt.elfreethehoelvdaesigon wofhichthe oacontl:
cur horror of it to the Irish
.peassat 1--(Hear.)--Did they know
what was done by Grand Junes in Ireland, and how presentments
placed before them were procured ? But, in their horror of per.
jury, it was not necessary to go so far as the county Tipperary : the
House would do well to consider what was done sometimes in
a place with which they were all well acquainted—be meant the
ten or twelve square feet on which they were standing. They
might not then be disposed to confine all their indignation to the
poor Irish cooler; and Hon. Members would not perhaps be so
ready to rush down to the House, calling upon them te pass a Bill
to save his soul, proving to the poor cotter at least—however neg.
ligert we may be of his temporal Interests—that we were not un-
mindful of his spiritual concerns. (Hear, hear. and a Laugh.)
But what should we say if the Irish cottier. in his turn, should
call upon us, on the same ground that we disfranchise him, to dis-
franchise ourselves? If he should direct our attention to Hon.
Gentlemen who were sometimes to be seen in the Lord Steward's
office, and in this House, calling God to witness that they were
poem...toed of three hundred pounds a year in lands and tenements,
whereas it was notorious that they were not possessed of a single
eshwiletlinegattienn eiethhetterld(hheeartn,ehthanntidsuhceh
thean
more sorry as there was no answer with which he would be pre-
pared hear)d
e on lieh a t Hasse,hu
d be
and sorry
Th
he should
pared to meet it. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. B.) knew the way in
which he would be answered. " What ! cast such an imputation
on this House !—You are guilty of a breach of privilege;-.go to
Newgate." (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) And yet it was neverthe-
less the fact—the notorious fact--that such oaths were taken, and
that the person taking them not only swore to the property, but
actually affixed his signature to the deposition, and inserted the
name of the county, parish, and hundred in which this property
0.1.1 situated. This was notoriously done, and we propose not to
disfranchise ourselves for it, but to disfranchise the forty-shilling
freeholders for perjuries of which we allege them to be guilty.
(Hear, hear.) To pass to the profession of the army, we would see
the same or nearly the same practice prevail there, with this excep-
tion, that the officers, being members of a gallant profession, do not
swear. They look upon a perjury as degrading to a man of honour.
But we, who are a more pure, sacred, and exalted body, manifest
our abhorrence of perjury by the solemnity of an oath. But swear-
ing is not a soldier's line to laugh), and lie merely gives his word.
A change in this qualification, he (Mr. Brougham) understood had
been lately made in the army, to the great cret:it of the Duke of
York ( lie was glad to praise any of his qualities that merited
commendation.) But. until the late change in the regulation,
an officer was obliged to give his word which was to
.pledge
himself that he gave no more than the regulation price for
his 'commission, whilst the whole country knew that he
gave twice the regulation price. (Cries of " Hear, hear.")
and which was readily paid by the officer, lest the country might be
deprived of the benefit of his services. Hitherto he (Mr. Brougham)
had only spoken of layman ; but was the Church without a stain 1
(Hear, hear.) Ile was the more anxious to advert to the Church as
he was desirous of preventing a great deal of argument and
preaching in another place should this Bill pass that House.
There were a certain class of persons whom he would not name,
but who had been not inaptly described by an Honourable and
Learned Friend of his (SirJ.3lackintosh) as " Gentlemen in an odd
sort of dress in another place." They would no doubt indulge in
all due expression of the abhorrence with which they regarded per-
jury, and would no doubt also feel that however condemnable
falsehood anti insincerity were in a layman, they were tenfold more
odious in a minister of religion. Yet, when one of these Right
Reverend persons was appointed to a bishopric, suppose of 4,0001.
a year. the first thing he did was to take an oath, declaring that
his sole inducement to accept of the appointn ent was that
of " being inwardly moved by the Holy Ghost to take the
office and administration thereof." (Cheers, and laughter.) He
disclaimed all motive save that which proceeded from the inward
movement of the Holy Spirit. This was, he believed, the oath
which was taken lately, he believed, by the Minister of Bishops.
gate Within, an extensive parish, which he understood yielded
four thousand a year. Yet, although this was the only solitary
motive declared, these Right Reverend persons did not find it
inconsistent or interfering with that single motive to vote five hun-
dred times against the Roman Catholic Emancipation Bill, forty-
five times against the Dissenters' Marriage Bill,and fifteen hundred
times against every kind of retrenchment and economy. This was
quite compatible with their high ministration—a ministration so
admirably calculated for all the ends it had in view. When the
' House then, reviewed its own practices, and those which prevailed
in the Army, and even in the Church, they would feel, perhaps,
that they ought not to be so exquisitely squeamish, and that the
poor Irish peasant is the only mortal for whom all their abhor-
rence should be reserved. Ile would not take into account the
Custom-house oaths; he supposed they were necessary to the
revenue, and that to them was attributable its present flourishing
condition. (Much laughter.) He had for these reasons great doubts
of the practical utility of the measure, even in a moral and re-
ligious point of view. But he would revert to the great objection
to the present system, on which the proposers of this Bill mainly
relied ; namely, that it was calculated to smooth the way to Cathu-
lic Emancipation. If any thing would induce hint to vote in the
dark it would be the extension of that great boon to Ireland. He
would support it if he did not deem that dissent was rendered in.
cutnbent on him by the conscientious discharge of his public duty.
He the more regretted his dissent on this occasion, because the
measure came recommended by the authorities, both in the House
and out of it, whom he was most accustomed to respect and
venerate. It came recommended, he believed, by being the
suggestion of his Right Honourable Friend (31r. Plunkett) and
who could be only actuated by a pure and disinterested desire to
serve the country by this measure. It came also recommended by
the Honourable Baronet. the Member for Westminster, au
authority scarcely second, if at all second, to that of his Right
Honourable Friend ; both of whom supported it from their lauda-
ble and vehement desire to support the great measure of Emancipa-
tion, and humanely benefit Ireland and save the Empire; but it
also came recommended by a Right Honourable Baronet, whom,
with great submission to the two eminent names he had mentioned,
Ise would bow with still greater submission to--hls Right flo.
nourable Friend the Member for Watertord, (Sir J. New.
port) who was one of the honestest men and best patriots,
whether in office or out of office, whom he bad ever known or
with whom he had ever acted, and whose name was worthy of
being associated in the gratelnl recollections of his country with that
of the immortal Grattan. (Hear, hear.) Ilia Right Honour.
able Friend hail given this measure his most unqualified support.
If he would follow any man in the dark, or advise others to do so,
that man would be his Right honourable Friend, but he could not
consent to do so with the conflicti...g testimony afforded by the evi.
dence before the Committee, and the more so as Le had found it as-
serted and apprehended by many that this measure would give
great dissatisfaction in Ireland—that it would alienate them still
more, and be so unpalatable to the people of Ireland as to frustrate
the good effects of the measure of Emancipation itself, which
he considered a nine-tenth of the coaciliauon by which that
country was to be permanently and affectionately bound to
this. The right to be taken away was, to the individual
possessing it, an important one;—it gave him the exercise
of a political privilege at least once in seven vears-.-it se.
cured him good treatment from his lamnord—it sometimes
secured him also a tenure, and sometimes procured for him an in.
crease of patrimony. These were important advantages,that ought
not to be. upon vague or unsatisfactory grounds, taken from those
who were in possession of them. Mr. Shell's evidence before the
House was, that what he knew was principally about the
towns and cities in Ireland ; but that Mr. O'Connell would
reconcile the people to die measure. But Mr. O'Conneli's
testimony, as he had shown, was not favourable to the
measure, and Mr. O'Connell knew the country thoroughly.
He valued Mr. O'Connell's opinion highly, ha kr.ew it to be ex.
tremely influential, and he thought it the best pledge that Etnan.
cipation would be considered as a measure of conciliation. But
Mr. O'Connell was the last man to ask foe a measure like this. See
in what adulation Mr. Steil put Mr. O'Connell. He expects Mr.
O'Connell to reconcile this measure to the people of Ireland, al.
though his opinion and his evidence is decidedly against it. Mr.
Sheil asks of Mr. O'Connell to say to the peasantry, " I have got
the Catholic question, and I'll tell you the means by which I have
got it ; I shall tell you the means by which we, the upper ranks,
have got the nicasuee, which is essential., which is a role qua non
to the peace of Ireland, which is fundamentally important—a ores.
sure, tile goods of which are undeniable, perpetual, incalculable,
but which will not be immediately perceptible to the peasantry--
which will not affect them directly—and the advantages of which
cannot be felt by them for sonic time. We have carried this mem-
sure, which opens to us the Bench, the House of Commons, and
the House of Cords, and all the price we have given is, your elect
dye franchise." (Hear, hear.) This is the argument which Mr.
O'Connell is asked to use ; and such is the argnment which he is
expected to use with success. But Mr. O'Connell is against the
measure—he may be right or he may be wrong—but he is against
the disfranchisement of the peasantry; and this is an additional
reason why the House should reject the measure. Ile (Mr. 13.)
would venture to lay it down as a general maxim of legislation,
that every great political question ought to be considered and adopt.
ed, or rejected, on its own merits, and not in combination with any
other question of greater, of leas, or only of equal, importance.
He did sot know for what reason this left.handed complicated Ca.
binet mode (he did not wish to use the phrase disrespectfully) of
compromiseo forwn
rieltihtisaanviresoduratoggfa7Enesistntioatinlideparnutitasuoln,iretnane
asithanetodPrebeatied°otnhtPerinithiteeuinogun
d
against the present measure—agreed to vote for the measure
which he disapproved, to gain the vote of another Member
for a measure which he, the other Member, also disapproved,
though approving of the present measure: so that this Bill is
to be carried, not on its own merits ; no more is the Catholic question
to be carried on its own merits, but Hon. Gentlemen are to vote for
it, Lecauee by passing it some three votes will be gained for the Ca-
tholic question. He hoped this important measure would not now
be earned, although its rejection should lose three votes for that
other independent ar.d not less important question. If it should be
said to therelilembers of that House, "Vote thiunand I give to you a
ship, and to you a regiment, end to you a government, he (Mr. B.)
should designate such a proceeding as fui of job and corruption ;
but upon calmly considertng it, he doubted, he did not believe.
that it was pregnant with the ditastrous consequences which would
arise from deciding for or.e question upon the merits of another.
(Hear). Our ancestors were always extremely cautious kow they
meddled with the elective feat:clime ; they were cautious when it
was proposed to extend the elective franchise. (Hear.) There
were sonic dozen Members in that House, who, if it was propmett
to le: the copyholdere in England vote, no bribe, no accompanying
*inn:sure., hotreser advantegeaus, would induce them to g ye even
half a Tote in favour el what they sould consider the beginning of

uhirey,coharsehiweitledlioL
most
a series of Parliamentary changes and innovations ; yet these y
Important change and innovation. But cautious as our ancawri
they were still more cautious. when y
the
to
cumseribe the elective franchise. Didt e ouse recollect the do.
hioinchormainyq
hltellemterbeshrszewri,thionutot sanymdesseliubererawt
franchisement of Grainpound ? There the right of election was
were when any attempt was made toshexterrand the elective fraanch'
forfeited by misuser ; the cause was clear—the fact was undsoiable,
and yet the House took two Sessions to deliberate. No borough
nor town was ever disfranchised without committees going, and in.
quiring and investigating. The inquiry upon the question cl the
disfranchistinent of flelstone lasted for two Sessions; and yet tr:!h.
out any investigation, any committee, any inquiry, the House wet
called upon to disfranchise all Ireland.ll, as that consistent!? What
answer should be given to such a proposal 1 When the Splitting
Act was passed, which was introduced under no greater or less a
illustrious person, and a note which was appended to them,
person than Lord Somers, it appeared from the tracts of that
and which was well known because it was afterwards cited,
that his sentiments were decidedly in favour of a principle
like that now proposed ; but the Splitting Act was not intro.
duced as a make-weight in the scale, to carry another measure, foe
if the history of that Session was turned to, it would appear that the
whole attention of the Parliament, the Government, and the our..
try, was directed, almost exclusively, to questions of Parliamentary
Reform. A measure called the Treating Act was introduced in a
few weeks after the Splitting Act, and a Bill for regulating elec-
tions went, stage for stage, with the Splitting Act, but it did not
receive the Royal assent. A fact connected with this subject had
lately come to his knowledge. A clause was proposed in this Bill
which did not receive the Royal assent, adopting the mode of vot.
ing for Members by ballot. He mentioned these circumstances, as
he thought them worthy of observation, and interesting at the pre-
sent moment, because they showed that the Splitting Act was one
of a course of measures which occupied exclusively the attention of
Parliament for a whole Session ; and he must not forget to men.
don, that these measures were never discussed in a House which
contained less than three cr four hundredllembers, and that a Place
Bill and a Pension Bill were introduced during the same Session.
This was the course o. legislation which ought to be pursued upon
the present occasion. The Bill before the House ought to be care.
fully scrutinized, and the effect of its provisions maturely weighed.
But there had been no investigation, no inquiry. It could not be
expected that the Committee which sat upon the inquiry into the
state of Ireland, would answer all the purposes of an inquiry upon
this particular measure. That Committee necessarily made general
inquiries. This Bill wanted to be separated and sifted, apart from
other questions. It was n^cessary to inquire into this measure, and
no inquiries had been made respecting it in the Committee but
through one direction. It was never asked, what other measures
could be adopted to relieve Ireland from the evils which the measure
was proposed to remedy. No sooner did the Hon. Gent. who km).
duced this measure produce his first witness, than be was told, that
this wrs not the right remedy—that it was not the effectual fees.
sure--that it was only intended to abate the mischief. After bear-
ing this, was it too much to ask for deliberate inquiry before the
House speed to such a measure? Was it too much to ask for
inquiry, even with the strongest belief that the Bill ought to be
mrried ? No two Gentlemen coming from Ireland were agreed in
opinion ; and was not this of itself a sufficient ground foreskin
the House to appoint a Committee to inquire into the expediency
of such a measure? He had the authority of some of his Hon.
Friends in that House who had considered the measure: he had this
authority of many persons of great information and good arose out
of doors; perhaps the opinions of a majority of these persons was in
favour of the proposed measure, but still it wanted deliberation. It
was inconsistent, unconstitutional, and unsafe, to vote for the dig.
franchisement of the Irish peasantry, upon the ground of carrying
the grand point of Catholic Emancipation. %I ho would have the
boldness to say, that he verily and truly believed, that it both mea.
sures passed, the one would so recotnuiend the other, that emanci-
pation would be accepted as a measure of conciliation, or in any
way a benefit ? (Hear, hear.) One measure hives benefits affecting
the great body of the people only rernote:y—benefits which cannot
be unmediately felt, but the great body of the people of Ireland
must inimediately feel the pressure of this new measure. Deny
man predicted that the advantages of one measure in the opinion et
the people of Ireland, would altogether co:upensate for the evil pro-
duced by the other, he (Mr. Brougham) envied the boldness of
such a prophet, without finding any reason to concur with him. If
Parliament would plant the Catholic question without any adjunct,
purely and simply, it would be received as a pledge of intended
benefit, and would hio much good, as it would evince a determine
time to conciliate and concede. But if the Catholic Relief PI
should be sent to Ireland bottomed on other views besides firsts:
conciliation; if it should be sent accompanied by a measure. thief',
in the words of 31r. O'Connell's evidence, would be open to mum
misconstruction—a meuuze in which, Mr. O'Connell says, de
personal interest of a large mass of the people would be mrolred.
Ice, ( Mr. Brougham) would eel upon the House to beware, hut the
measure of Emancipation, much as it was desired, should become
unpopular when connected with this unconciliating ad;anct.
These were his forebodings even if the Catholic Bill should pas.
But by agreeing to adopt the present Bill, for he did not oppose it
—he said nothing of it—who could assure him that the Catholic
Bill would be carried? The friends of the Catholic Bill see
reckoning without their host ; they were reckoning without their
Lords. (A laugh.) It was not for him to allude to what he here
of passages which had fallen in any wirier place. What he ha:
heard alarmed him, not only for the peace of Ireland, bat foe the
safety of England and of the British Constitution, and the stalilli.y
of the monarthy as by law established at the Revolution ot lor,
and then settled. (Hear, hear.) So deep, so serious, an slicer. I:
protested to God he ad never before felt. It was impossible it
could be true ; the public papers were filled with libels: co man
could believe it; it was utterly impossible that a Prince of the
Blood, who sits upon the settlement of that Reyolutioa. could
openly promulgate to the world, that happen what will, when he
s4U come to fill another and a higher station—(Cries of cilia,
order, here burst from the 31 inisterial benches.)
Me. PLUNKETT rose amidst mingled trivia " order, ord-:"
and "hear, hear." Ile said that in rising tollorder, he only retterl
that he had not taken an earlier opportunity of putting aEI to
the discussion which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was tow
about to enter Into. He should have risen before, hut be conceived
that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman meant to allude only bitty-
rically to what passed elsewhere ; but when the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman adverted to what appeared in the public prints onl7 this
day, and designated an illustrious person in a manner not to he
mistaken, he (31r. P.) thought he owed it to that illustrious person.
as well as to the cause in which re believed the Hon. and Learn td
Gentleman to be sincerely interested, to prevent him front grin
further into a course of argument which was not Parliaments 7.
and which could not be advantageous to that cause.
The SPEAKER said, that if the Hon. and Learned 31ember%
Inference was only collateral, no doubt he was at liberty to continue.
It was not possible foe him (the Speaker) to define the mode of e•
gumeat which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ought to prism.
more stricely than the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had hirns:l
defined it. It was his (the Speaker's) duty to presume that de
Hon. and Learned blember had not swerved from the course olio
gument which he had laid down, but if his observations were to lead
to those allusions which the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Pio.
kett) had anticipated, no doubt the Hun.and Learned Merabe: vas
not in order.

Mr. BROUGHAM resumed : From the Speaker's decision, the
House must perceive that the Right Hon. and Lesrneu Goldman.
when rising to order way at least premature. He was interrapted
before he had been disorderly, on the mere apprehension that he
might become disorderly. This the Right Hon. and Leaned Gen-
tleman had not a right to do. It might have been the course of
conduct pursued in that Parliament to which the Right Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had belonged, but it was not the usage et the
Parliament of England. An English Member of Pediment was
free from all interruption until he had said something which was
disorderly, and this lie did at his peril, for he was liable to have his
words taken down; and he (Mr. Brougham) had not the least ob-
jection, in this House or any other in which he had the honour to
speak, to have every word mken down. With respect to Hen.
Members in that House alluding to what had taken plan in mo-
ther House, for the character and credit of the House of Commons
he thought it his duty to make a few observations. Seldom or
never a question came to be discussed in the House of Commons
that sonic Hbn. Member did not allude to what passed elsewhere,
under the flimsy mantle of " another solace," or a place which
I must not name," or some such intelligible phrase. The lion.
Member for Knaresbarough (Sir J. Mackintosh) had some time
since alluded to the Bishops without bring called to order. An
Honourable Member that very everting had alluded to the same in.
Milani and would it not have been mean and base-spirit d, he
(Mr. Brougham) heard the Lord Chancellor referred to in the
Home, and in twenty-four hours afterwards heard teat Noble
Lord on the Woolsack answering his antagonist in the House cf
Commons, and yet he (Mr. Brougham) was to avoid any allusion
to what passes elsewhere ? But the Right Honourable and Lonz"l
Gentleman did not object to the allusion to the Lord Chancellor. Pr
the Bishops, or the Lords collectively or individually,
you touch the Heir Presumptive, up starts privilege, and the Right
Honourable and Learned Gentleman, in the most diserdedt
waits not, rests not to hear, but quits time. rises to say, no
may abuse the Chancellor—you may abuse the Bis Lops—yon
abuse the Lords individually and collectively—
Mr. WOHEHOUSE rose to order, amidst cries cf •• Her.
hear." He asked the Honourable and Learned Gentleman only to
explain what he meant by quia rind. (Shouts of laugl.ter fie
the Opposi ion Benches.) hut whin
Mr. Secretary PEEL rose. He thought, although the Hon. sld
Learned Geltlenian (Mr. Brougham) might feel that in por"
order he vas jus.ified in continuing his present line of arkture..:.,
yet in proceesiing further in this course of observation, he mug's!
forth feelings which would unfit the House for the calm and 1:o:-
borate consideration of the question before it.
Mr. BROUGHAM again resumed. In his view of the
the cause of argument which he was taking was dirre!'",,;l„
point. Would any man now toll him that he t.e' f"c
Ca.holic question would be carried ? Forty-eight lints 40",
might be the opinion, but now could any man Lope that Me
friends of the mnasure were sure of carrying ttic Cathnlic
questinn ? What pledg,e had he if he teliaquished Its dint an
Illember of that House, and his right as a man of common
judge from circumstances that the measure of Emancipatint. scold
now be granted ? This conclusion was well for his lion. Ftir:dl
the Member for Wist,..inster (Sir F. Burdett) two days ale.
the news of this day extinguished those hopes. The news of ih
otninious day, he feared would fall upon the people of Ireland hie
the knell of despair :it ought to opeatte upon that House.-It cught
to operate upon the country. Ile would repeat, it ought hi opstlir
upon the Ileum a a warning. These who opposed the 1110,1 Te
Uniancipation did not want candodr, and honestv, and con-
sientinw in the avowal of their opinions. lie deticd any
ntau (tic record Lot go :mum.) tp bo.ray more obstLiatec.)nz:itneous-

.~
~.
t

a. pui; irnc;:cale the power e
tits 'lower nt mere num'ur
-Protestant interest. At ;
ascendancy. the ltsman C
extent of their propert;
• ;of equality to Om extent