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tivntor of the sell mete than ateactil itself`
produce's. (Hear, hear.)
This state of things cannot be remedied by the removal of the dia-
abilitica of the Roman Catholics. Other measures, of a wiser,
more comprehensive, and efficacious nature, are requisite. The '
etinedies that seen to nee to suggest themselves consist chiefly in an
equitable system of landholding, the pure administration of justiae,
a revision of the revenue laws, a general system of education. art •
last, but not least, that which is alone calculated to lead to ell the
rest, the ha arn and residence of the proprietors of the soil. (Hear,
hear.) Thin is thesemantipation of which Ireland stands in need—
an emancipation that would relieve her front an incalculable mass
of moat and political evil—that would raise the peasantry from
sloth and reckless poverty, and deliver them from their ignorance,
their sepias:item, and their habits of insubordination. W hen
these remedies shall have been administered, 1 have no doubt that
your Lordships will witness the efiecta produced to be those of
great moral, religious, and civil improvement. (Hear, hear.)—
My Lords, it appears b the evidence respecting this question,
that until 111::3 the gnat hotly of the Roman Catholics of Ireland
did not care about what is called emancipation, end that even now
the notion they have of it is that it comprises a restoration of the
supremacy of their church, and, according to some of the wit-
nesses, the recovery of the forkited lands. Whichever notion they
may entertain, ninth I believe both are widely spread amongst them,
what will be their feelings of disappointment, sha,uld this Bill on.
Wrtunately pates, when they find that it confers neither of those
boons ? '1 n what lengths their feeling* of disappointment I
may drive them, if the Bill should not be passed, it ir. eel.. I
tainly impossible to conjecture. I confess 1 have considerable
apprehensions as to the result; but whatever it may he, it will owe
its origin to a knot of political agitators--I use the term advisedly
and deliberately, for one either' has publicly thanted God that he
is an agitator_a knot of political agitators, I therefore repeat, who
have cart this leaven into the lump, which was previously disposed
from other causes to ferment, in order that while it heaves and
swells they may rise to the surface. Till the Catholic Association
existed, the population generally cared nothing about the exclusions,
shicii affected only a few of their leaders. While they had been
permitted tranquilly to enjoy the produce of their honest labours,
they were indifferent as La their inadmissibility to Parliament. Their
feelings on this subject were also clearly shown by the fact that
their disposition to insubordination has not been diminished by the
relaxation of the Penal Code. Indeed it is in evidence that they
. hardly know that any such relaxation has taken place, though
the concessions already made to them incomparably exceed in
number •and importance what retrains to be granted. Yet
all this has produced no effect in conciliating them. They are
even ignorant, , we are told, that any change has been mete for
.their benefit. But, my Lords, I draw another inference from that'
statement. I regard it as a lamentable proof that those to whom
the Roman Catholics particularly look' Ids for guidance and in-
struction are purposely withheld from them the knowledge,
which, if commusicated, might have been a powerful nsotisith to
loyalty and good behaviour. With what views I 'suspect those
leaden to have .witltheld this knowledge, which they netertheles%
describe an of vital importance to the tranquiffity al the country.
I will not say ; but this I will say, that it was preciaely the line of
conduct of those who having a greater and niers perilous object of
enterprise, mimed as trifling and insignificant all their minor sue-
eases; it witts the coarse of men, who leaving demolished the
barriers and outworks, were preparing Wean assault on the citadel.
(hear, heat, heir), aud• who were now seeking to gain the ad-
missibility of their lay .brethren to office, only to facilitate their
grand object of re-establialting the Roman Cwho is teligion on the
ruins of the Protestant Church. (Hear, hear:) Mt was mid of
the Roman Catholics in the reign of James I. . rigidly time at
this day : " If they once gein a connivance they will we-
st-n:ly 'aim at a toleration ; if they succeed in that, they
will next insist upon equality; that gained, they will aspire
to superiority, and never rest till they, achieve the destruction of
the Protestant religion." My lairds, there can he no doubt that
this is the ultimate object of the Roman Catholic hierarchy. It is
said that the Irish people will be satisfied with no measure short
of this before your Lorelei/lime. I bore, however, to live to see the
time when measures of a different and more efficacious character
will be brought forward—measures which will render the lower
'orders of that country a weld educated, contented, industrious, and
happy people, and wrest a formidable engine of mischief from
hands that wield it only to the public danger and detriment. 31y
Lords, depend upon it if the lower orders of the Irish people have
any religious feeling on this question, it goes much further than
the narrow limits of the present Bill, and therefore that Bill can-
not act as a measure of pacification. If some plan could be devised
to give them means of employment, they mi 't be quiet, but Mr.
31• Carty in his evidence adds, that even theft " the question of
fi
emancipation would still be made a handle ;" and is there any indi-
vidual, my Lords, who believe* that if this Bilf be passed unal-
tered, there will he no handle left while there remdins a single point.
of exclusion ? The inferiority of the Roman Catholic church.
would still be a subject of complaint, and additional facilities would
at the same time be,given for gaining the ulterior object& I main-
tain, therefore, that in applying this measure to Ireland, as a re-
medy for the convulsive spasms which agitate that unhappy coun-
try, your Lordships would commit a great practical error in the
diagnosis of the disease. You wonld administer a remedy suitable
to one disease, while all the symptoms indicate another, I ask,
therefore, may Lords—being persuaded as I ant that the ulterior ob.
ject of the Roman Catholic hierarchy (for which, be it understood,
I impute no blame to them) be, the subversion ofthe Protestant
Establishment, and the erection of their own on its ruins,--can
your lordships blame me, as a minister of the Protestant
Church, if I oppose a measure which would give unspeakable
facilities for the attainment of that object ? Aly Lords, we
all know what novel speculations are afloat as to church property.
We all know the proceedings of the Irish !louse of Commons with
respect to the tithe of egintment. (Hear, hear.) I sin naturally
apprehensive of still more daring attempts when there shall be in
Parliament a set of Roman Catholic Members, moving in a com-
pact body, and bound, by the most powerful ties of duty, to oppose
the tithe system ; knowing too, as they will, that if they should be
lukewarm or inactive, they would certainly be cashiered at the next
election by the influence of the priests. This Bill, my Lords,
resembles one of those portentous comets, which, •
" From-its horrid hair, '-• -•
Shake; pestilence and war."
If on these grounds alone I dissented front this Bill, I think I
should be fully justified. I am of opinion, that viewing It simply as
a political measure, areart 611111 all religious considerations, it is in-
superably objectionable. I now come to a part of the question on
which I will endeavour to be brief, particularly as Imay be sapposed
to be more competent to form a judgment upon it-I allude to the
opinions of the Roman Catholic Church. Before I enter upon the
examination of their dogmas, it may beaulvfsable to consider the
views and sentiments they profess to have, towards the Protestant 1
Church. A gentleman who gave evidence before your Lordships,
and who belongs to the Romish persuasion, said that unless he
was convinced that emancipation would go to streagthen the Pro.
testant interest, tic, for one, would not be in its favour. I rather
think, my Lords, that this testimony must be understood with
reference to that latitude of expression which is usual to speaker,
from the other aide of St. George's Channel. This gentleman,
like many a witness, in his eagerhesa to support his cause,
proved too much. .1 do not, my Lords, call into cpteation the sin-
cerity of his feelings ; but I must say, that if hie evidence was to
be the criterion of the feelings of the Irish Catholics towards the
Protestant Eatablishment, nothing more fallacious can be imagined.
l I beg for one moment to call your attention, my Lords, to the na-
ture of the evidence before your Lordships' Committee; As far as
facts are stated, or the opinions of tie individuals examined are
concerned, the evidence may be taken withnutdanht or qualification.
But I hope that I may be allowed to object to its being received
altogether as the "truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth." The eliciting of truth depends as much on those who
question as on those who answer. This fact was never more re-
markably exemplified than by this evidence. The Roman
Catholic witnesses took great care, in their very cautious answers,
never to go beyond the questions put to them. Though armed
at all points, they were not authorised to declare the views of the
Roman Catholic body. All they could state was their own indivi-
dual opinions. But if your Lordships wish to know the full
truth, you should attend their public meetings ; you should hear
their public orators detailing their grievances and suggesting their
remedies ; you ahonld hear them denounce the Protestant church
as an intolerable nuisance, a gorgeous pest, an incubus on the
prosperity of the country ; you should listen to the applause with
which these declamations are received, and then judge what are
the views and feelings of the Irish Catholics. (Hear, hear.)
In a remarkable speech of Dr. Dromgoole, which was re-
ceived by a crowded assembly of Roman Catholics with ac-
clamations, and has been since declared to be purely and pre-
cisely Catholic, the downfall of the Protestant Church Wag
thus announced : " She shall fall, mid nothing but the memory of
the mischiefs she has committed shall survive. 9he has had her
time on earth, and the day of her dissolution is approaching."
This very speech was carried in triumph to the feet of the papal
throne, and received the unqualified approbation of the Pope,
who declared it worthy to be encased in cedar and gold. [1 he
Right Reverend Prelate then read another extract, in which the
Church of England was described as the eldest of the heretical
sisters, and especially worthy of the haired of the Roman Cathodes.]
Leda lucebis in ills,
Qui stunts ardent, qui tixo gutture fumant.
These, my Lords, are the prevailing sentiments of the great body
of the Roman Catholics of Ireland. I certainly did once think
they had an eve on our tithes, but from their evidence there can
be no question that they have no wish to appropriate the tithes to
themselves ; they only wish to strip the Established Church of-
theni. ( Hear, hear.) Their desire to injure the Establishment goes
no further than to deprive it of all means of subsistence. For this
fact I have not only the authority of the Roman Assts .
elation
Ass.
elation and Dr. Doyle, but I have it in the shape of an authentic
document, a petition which was presented to the House of Commons
on the last day nis May 1824, and in the prayer of which they state
thy nothing will satisfy them, but, in the first place, the repeal of
the Union; secondly, the abolition of tithes; and, thirdly, the
dissolution oral! corporations. I will not dwell at length on thin
petition, but 1 will produce. as an authentic rancher of the same diet-
position, the well known letters of J. K. L. This, my Lamb, was
a very different person from that Dr. Doyle who was examined
before your Lordships. (Ileac.) In his evidence he stated, that the
Roman Catholics, as Roman Catholics, entertained no designs
hostile to the church, but as a great body employed in agricultu-
ral pursuits, they would do all in their power to procure the abo-
lition ot' tithes. This distinction, my Lords, Is much the same as
it a disappointed suitor in the Court of Chancery should wait en
the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, and say to him
" May it please you, my lard Chancellor, 1, as Robert Gourley,
do not entertain a feeling in the least degree hostile to you as the
Earl of Eldon. but as a disappointed suitor in the Court of Chan.
eery, I will administer to you, as lion! High Chancellor,• a
knock on the head." (Hear, hear, hear.) This same Dr. Doyle,
my Lords—no, I beg his pardon, the writer J. R.l..—stated in his

pamphlets that all the ela4 of the Legislature were marred by the
Protestant Pliestlicad—g at the murders mud other atrocities that
stained the annals of Ireland, and hardened the heart and brutalised'
the feelings of her population—all resulted from the oppression of
the Protestant Priesthood—that Protestant Priesthood, my Lords,.
to ahe tinbearance and moderation the concurrent testimony of
all impartial witnesses ascribed whatever benefit Ireland now pos.
sessee—that Protestant Priesthood. my Lords, who in the greet
moral desolation of their country, remain as the oases in the desert,
to whom the pa:mantra. in spite of the difference of faith, look up
with reverence and affection, and who, in the midst of nocturnal
conflagration and murder, remained at home unprotected but by
their virtues. (Hear, hear, hear.) I trust, my lands, I have no
feeling of animosity towards any individual; I hope I am not
moved by the calumnies that have been published respecting the
Protestant Clergy. I would not willingly speak with harsh-
ness of one in the same spiritual order as myself; but there are
emergencies when the truth must be spoken. What degree of
truth then, my Lords, 1 ask, ought to be attached to the evi-
dence of that man, who having, from his anonymous covert;
hurled firebrands into the sanctuary of the Protestant church,
and sent forth the levelling doctrines of .lacobinisin, comes
before your Lordships with ;;losing words, to soften down his
calumnies, and hint his dislike of die doctrines which rand
blazoned in every document issued by the Church to which he he.
longs ? I pass from Dr. Doyle, by a natural transition, to the l'ope
An attempt has been made to draw a distinction between the Pope's
authority in things temporal and in things spiritual. But before
this distinction can be madeof practical effect, each individual mat
have two distinct sets of principles and tedious; one relating to
the thugs of the other world, and one to the things of this world.
Is it not an acknowledged fact that one Pope nominates to all the
Ilishorrias of Ireland, with incomes from 4 or 11001. to 2 or 3,000!.
a year? Has lie not absolute power over the priesthood; the runt
total of whose income is between 2 and 300,000!. a year ? This is a
body of well-disciplined troops. At one time it is admitted the Hatt
titular Bishops were the nominees of the Popish Pretender. But
it is said they still retained their allegiance to the reigning 310.
narch. What would have been their conduct if the Pretender had
appeared in Ireland with an imposing military force? In that
case, my lands, the ultimo radio pa pa runt would hare been ap-
plied as the specific for the emergency, and the Irish Catholic
would have been relensed from their allegiance to King George by a
bull, as the French were from their allegiance to the Bourbons by
Pius VII. on the accession of Bonaparte. I now come, my Lords,
to the Pope's deposing power. Dr. Doyle says it in obsolete ; not
abrogated, not annulled, not disavowed, but obsolete. Truly a well
chosen ten; but have we forgotten that in 1643 Charles I. will
deposed by a bulf, that in 1729 the sante power was exercised
against George 11. by Benedict XIiI., and by Pius VII in 1304.
against Louis XVIII ? I acknowledge, my Lords, that these are
.but empty displays, (bear, hear, from the Opposition,) but though
the:. were empty, as far as regards the actual power of the Pape, 1
contend they were not without effect on the minds of the Roman
Catholics, to whom they were addressed. (Cheers.) Dr. Do) le
says the power is obsolete. But, my Lords, in a rescript sent to
the Nuncio at Vienna in 1809. the Pope assorted him that he bed
the power to depose heretical Princes, though lie did not judge it
expedient to exercise it. I say, then, my Lords, it does not be-
come the Roman Catholics to advance their pretensions to political
power while their offensive doctrines continue to be cherished by the
Court of Rome. My Lords, neither Dr. Doyle, nor any Roman
Catholic in the universe, will pretend to maintain that a single ca-
non of the Council of Trent has ever been disavowed, and while
the decrees of that Council remain the profession of faith and rule.
of discipline of the Roman Catholics, they will continue, in my
judgment; disqualified to take any part' in the Government of a
Protestant country. 1 am aware that I shall be charged with re-
viving antiquated prejudices ; but, my Lords, these are still
the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. They are
obsolete only as the power and strength of a tiger is obsolete,
when his claws are pared and his limbs paralysed. (Hear, hear.)
I hope, my Lords, I am not understood to impute blame to the in-
dividuala professing the Roman Catholic faith, but the conscien-
tious members of that Church must believe every tittle of these
doctrines, and they only are worthy of our notice or consideration.
1 had intended, my Lords, to say more respecting these doctrines.
I will only add that the most offensive of them arc taught, not
merely at the Court of 'Home, but in the divinity claes books of
the College of Maynooth. 1 must advert to the inviolability of
oaths. In a book of education written by Dr. James Butler, for
Roman Catholic children, they arc taught that an unjust oath is
not binding, and an unjust oath is believed to be an oath in-'
injurious to God, our neighbours, or ourselves. How dif-
ferent is this doctrine from that which teaches us that " the
righteous titan sweareth to his neighbour, and disappointeth him
not, though to his own hindrance !" My Lords, again I say, this'
measure is no specific for the disease of Ireland. I contemplate it
only as comprising abundant materials of civil commotion—as an
inroad on the principles of the Constitutions-Rs a stepping-stone to
the enemies of the Establishment to scale the walls of the church.
I am in duty bound to admit that in the acquaintance I have
with Roman Catholics of education,-1 confess it is very
limited,but I have seen nothing that has led me to be-
lieve that they entertain the offensive doctrines of their Church.
I bear willing testimony to their liberality, honour, and can-
dour. One Roman Catholic Gentleman in particular, in pos-
sessing vast property, has had the liberality, worthy of a better
faith 1 hope I may any without offence, to support a huge
national school. If this Bill should pass, I hope, my Lords.
that when carried into effect, its operation will not be such
such as I expect. We live at an era when we cannot cal.
ciliate with confidence the effect of any political measure. If '
it should pass, I shall still confide in the procection of that Provi.
dente who has hitherto shielded the Protestant Church of these
kingdoms, and as long as that Church shad do its duty, I have no
dread that lie will withdraw his protection. But I cannot therefore
consent, on account of contingent and problematical dangers, to
sacrifice a single security of the Established Church. These con-
siderations will indnce me to give far from a satisfactory,
but assuredly a conscientious, vote, on the question before you.
The Earl of LIMERICK then rose to support the Bill.—
The Right Rev. l'relate bad endeavoured to attribute the miseries
of Ireland to other causes than the disabilities affecting the Roman
Catholics of Inland ; he seemed to think they were owing to too
many derivative interests,' and to the non-residence of !monorail.
Perhaps, he (the Earl of L.) might come under the imputation,
as thus thrown out against the landlords. (Hear, and a laugh.)
Perham; he was included in the charge of not doing his duty in
this respect. But the Right Rev. Prelate should remember that
we were a United Kingdom ; or at least in his desire to heap impu.
onions on others, he should not have omitted an carefully the
absence of the Clergy. (Cheers.) And on the part of landlords
he would say, that some difference should be made between
these who enjoyed hereditary mutes and those who were paid by
the State for time performance of a fixed duty. (Hear, hear.)
The charge, however, of the Right Rev. Prelate was; directed ra-
ther against the Protestants than die Roman Catholics, as the
landed property was chiefly in the hands of Protestants. The Ca_
tholics, he (Loral L.) sincerely believed, approached this House in
the spirit of sincerity and conciliation—but the Right Rev. Prelate
would not credit them • they tendered their midis in testimony of
the doctrines they professed—but them Right Reverend Prelate re-
fused to receive ; he turned upon them and said, " 1 don't believe
you ;" and he in conjured up a teat whereby to try them—some
rescript or antiquated dogma of Pope Boniface or Urban, not ae.
cordant with the present doctrine of Catholics, nor suited to the spi.
rit of the age. The Right Reverend Prelate refused to credit any.
thing they said : he would exclude them from the Constitution for
doctrines which they themselves disclaimed This was waging an
interminable war on one third of the population of the Empire.
(Hear, hear.) The Right Reverend Prelate might have looked
upon a Right Reverend Brother on his own bench (the Bishop
of Norwich), in whose eloquent and enlightened sentiments I
he would discover principles more congenial to the true spirit
of Christianity. In the contrast of the sentiments of the two
Right Reverend Prelates, he would say to the House,
" Look on this picture, and on that."
(Hear, hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate had greatly exaggerated
the incomes of the Roman Catholic Prelates, by saying that they
were in the receipt of three or four thousand a year.
The Bishop of CHESTER intimated, that what he had said
was, from 5001. to 20001 or 3000!. a year.
The Earl of LIMERICK could assure the Right Rev. Prelate
that he had formed an exaggerated estimate of the incomes of die
Roman Cathodic bishops. and clergy : some of them had certainly
what may be called goon parishes; but, generally speaking, their
incomes were collected in small pittances of sixpences, and shil-
lings, anti lialf.crowns, from the poorer classes of the people, a
nude of payment ill which the Right Rev. Prelates opposite would
not like io receive their revenues. They had not, nor did they re-
quire establishments in London. Cheltenham, and in other places
of fashionable resort, but remained at home In exemplary attention
to the spiritual welfare of their flocks. He was induced to say thus
much in vindication (tithe clergy, and of the landlords of Ireland,
after what had fallen from the Right Rev. Prelate.
The Bishop of CH ESTER was desirous of assuring the Noble
Earl that he intended to convey no imputation on the landed pro-
perty of Ireland. What he intended to convey to the House was,
that there would be as much reason at least for imputing impro-
priety to the non-resident landlords as there was far imputing mo-
tives of interest to the clergy for the part that they took on this
question. As to the incomes of the Roman Catholic Titular Bish-
ops of Ireland he had taken theiestimate he h.ul made front the
evidence oh' those Catholic Bishops themselves, one of whom stated
the Income of a certain Roman Catholic Bishopric to be 9001. a
year, and that he knew that others were considerably move.
Lord HARROWBIT here rose, amid much confusion in the
House, to propose an adjournment of the debate. (Loud cries of
" No I no !" • Go on t go on !" from all parts of the House.)
The Marquis of LaNsnowat and the Earl of LIVERPOOL
rose at the same time ; the latter Noble Lord gave way, and
The 3larquis of LANSDOWN said that after the very able
and impressive, though not to his mind very convincing, speech of
the Right Reverend Prelate opposite (the Bishop of Chester) he
was desirous of tittering a few observations upon some of the topics
to which lie had adverted, before he went into the consideration
of the general question, to which he had at all times given his
support, and which imperatively called, on this occasion more
than any other, for the best support that he could give it.
The ['iglu Reverend Prelate hued maintained that expediency might
justify a forfeiture of sights. He (the Marquis of L.) would
maintain however that expediency should not stand in the way
of an act of justice, the more particularly when the performance of
that act was safe and necessary. But upon the ground of expe-
diency he would assert that the passing of this measure, end the
immediate passing of it was rendered requisite, not less by reason
and justice than by expediency. The Right Reverend Prelate. in
the inquiries which induced him to form a new opinion on the die.
abilities affecting the Roman Catholics, seemed to have discovered
that the present condition of Ireland was owing to other causes.
diatinet altogether from those disabilities. lic would apply to the

relief of that country what he called " statistical legislation," a
term which he presumed he found in the writings of Sir John
Sinclair. (Hear, and a laugh.) But in this plait of statistical
legislation the Right Rev. Prelate °refloat:l the importance of
encouraging and rafting up a Roman Catholic gentry, sod a
Roman Catholic yeomanry. which was so much wanting in that
country—that efficiem instrument for the promotion and welfare of
Ireland, which had been eloquently termed &conductor between the
Government and die people. The Right Rev. Prelate, who had
gone so largely into learned inquiries upon this subjt CI-60 largely
as to alter the impre.csion which he had at first formed from
an actual contemplation of the particular condition of Ice:laid
( !fear, hear, hear)—had overlooked this important point of con.
sideration also, that the people of Ireland were of a different reli.
gion from the Established Church there by law. This was an
anomaly which he could not remedy it was a great evil certainli,
but it could not be remedied. They ought to see, therefore, how
thee could alleviate that evil—only by conciliating the affection,
and the confidence of the people of the country. (Bear, heir.)
The Right Rev. Prelate had dealt out imputations on the ROOl2ll
Catholic population of Ireland, on the Roman Catholic clergy rill
Ireland, and on the Roman Catholic priesthood generally. Ile
(Lord L.) would with confidence assert that he was tot ilh101:11 in
these imputations. He w, la not have found it In the evidence to
which he had adverted. lie could not have-read the evidence act
have made these charges. Where would he find evidence to sup.
port the charge of an intention on the part of tile Roman Catno;iiis
to overturn the Protestant Church, and to establish the Roman Ca.
tholic Church in its stead ? Ile (Lord L.) would be bold to say
that there was not one tittle in the whole of the evidence,
either of the Roman Catholic Prelates or gentlemen examined weft
the Committee, or of a single Protestant of intelligence, to substan-
tiate the charge. lie would repeat, that the Right Rev. Prelate
could not have read the evidence and made the charge. (Hear.)
Their evidence also with respect to the forfeited estates of Roman
Catholics was no less satisfactory. Front the evidence it appeared
that forfeited estates, in cases of the sale of property, were pre.
ferred. as the title was more easily made out, and deemed more secure.
The Right Rev. Gentleman had expressed it as his opinion that
the people of Ireland would feel themselves disappointed if they
did not take away the whole of their property that had been for.
fated. The Right Rev. Prelate had said that they were led to en-
tertain the opinions they did upon the subject from a regard to their
property, when, according to him, all properly was to betaken
awn!. lie (Lord Lanadowat) thought that upon more mature
consideration, the Right Rev. Prelate would banish from his mind
the apprehensions he entertained. lie for his own part could not
separate the security of property from the security of the Church,
as had been done by the Right Rev. Prelate. He had always con.
sidcrcd this question as involving all establishments, and that upon
the same principle, and that was, that it involved the security of all.
The security of all would be obtained, as it would secure the affections
of the whole population. The Right Rev. Prelate had appealed to the
conduct of the Catholic Association, and in that reference had
stated that there was no unanimous or loud expression of feeling
upon that subject. But he (Lord Lanadown) would ask whether
the very formation of such an Association did not show the state
of public feeling which had been perpetually breaking out in new
forms, new shapes, and new phantasm's, all tending to establish
the thet of the existence of a great mass of discontent. This dis-
content did exist and must be allayed. The Right Revere! d
Prelate had made extracts front a speech made many years
ago, and from which he, gathered the particulars of the (h.
tholic Faith. But he would ask, were the Catholics answer.
able for all that had been written 011 the subject of their religion ?
Would the Church of England like to be judged by the sank
method ? With regard to the expediency of the measure, be
would now offer his opinion. The question was not whether tran-
substantiation or consubstantiation were reasonable doctrines, nor

whether the calling won saints was or was not idolatry, but how
far the spiritual power of the Pope extended, and where the tern.
pond power begau, and how far this obedience to the commands oh
a foreign spiritual Potentate affected the allegiance of the subject.
(Hein, hear.) In this argument he had the advantage of an ad-
mission made early in the evening, of the present favourable stare
of the limes for Protestantiene lie would pass by the claims to
the Catholics upon the gratitude of England for the public services
they had rendered in time of need, aid merely urge upon them the
expediency of it. He would hest ask what the Protestant religion
had to fear front the concessions, and next, what they had to
gain by them ? When the Right Reverend l'relate had last
spoken, he had expected that he would have brought forward some
facts in support of his opinions : one fact he certainly did men-
tion, and that was, that of the Pope having cent bulls and deposed
the King. (A laugh.) It was true that it had been acknowledged
that these bulls had been without visible effect, but thenthe Right
Reverend Prelate was. still of opinion that it had some effect upon
the minds of ibis Majesty's subjects. (A. laugh.) This, however,
confirmed what had been given in evidence by Dr. Doyle and others
uupon the power of the Pope- There was a bouneaty to his tem-
poral power, which he had in this distance passed,and had efore
been unattended to. The Right Reverend Prelate first tool the
right to select any particular tenet he might demonstrate Catholic,
and then to put what construction lie pleased spun it, and tioaily ow
attribute . the whole to the profemors of the Catholic relieion.
(Hear.) Ile, fur his own pat, thought that the Catholic had a
right to say what was and what was not Ills erred. He
called .upon them to look upon circumstances as they were
in the world at present. The Catholic religion was not to be
considered by the eye of an antiquary, looking to what it was,
but by that of the stalestrian, looking to whet it is. If they
were studying any science under a master who was teaching them
the laws of nature, what would they think of hint if, instead of
bidding therelook to the heavens the earth, and ehe whole pheno-
mena of the creation, he wax to bid them look to the doctrines laid
down by the Royal Acedetnyeaud guide his judgment by then
works ? This would be just as reasonable. as the present proceed-
ings. They must not look to the Bodleian library or to Cardinal
Rellarmine for the present state of the Catholic fauh. Let them
look round in Europe and America, and they would find whit were
the dispositions of the Catholics. The United States generally had
been alludedto as a good illustration, but when they came to ex-
amine the Constitution of each particular State, they would find
even more striking illustudions. In Maryland the population was,
when called upon to frame a Constlfutrote composed of by far the
greater ,part Catholics, on account of persecutions in England,
which bad, at the colonization of the State, driven a great
number to that quarters who at that occemion--he meant
the framing of a Constitution—bad shown more liberal
iews with regard to toleration than any of the other
States of the Union. The consequence of this had beer,
that the Catholic, religion had dereased in that country. Rae
then was an example of a majority of Catholic population.
without having exerciela that intolerance which had been de-
scribed as their constant attribute. Let them look to the ge-
neral state of Europe-,.t0 Prussia, Ilenover, and indeed all the
States north of the Alps. In those States it was acknewkdged that
the Roman Catholics of the present age, whatever might have been
their conduct heretofore, were capable of discharging the duties of
loyal subjects. He called upon the Noble Peer on the NVoolsack,
who had many_ opportunities of knowing what had been the course
of afikirs in Europe--he called upon him to say, whether there bad
ever been an instance of a Roman Catholic General, or oilier publie
character, swerving from his duty to hie Sovereign ? The fidelity
of many had been tried, but had been found to he unavail-
able. It had been said, that Roman Catholics might ary.well
have all these privileges in a despotic country, but not in a
free Suite. (Hear, hear.) Truly it was an advantage in
a despotic country that so large a portion of the people could act as
their fellow-citizens, whilst in free England they could noe—er.
England, where the very principle of the Constitution was that sit
opinions should be represented ; and yet unless this measure were
passed a third of the opinions of the whole popnlatind would be
excluded. Such a derogation front the free character of the Cor.-
stitution he never had heard of. If they were legislating upon ar-
ticles of religious observance, no man would listen with more vene-
ration to that venerable Bench than lie would, but whoa the ques-
tion went to deprive a large portion of the community of theft
hopes of evil and political sights ; when it became a question as
to the effect of duties upon human conduct and human affair., he
thought the Clergy were not to be attended to, and that tidy were
from their situation even more fallible than other wee. (Hear.)
There was a remarkable similarity between the arguments stud
upon the question of admitting Catholics to the privileges of the
Catholics to the privileges of the Constitution, and those used upon
the queetiou of admitting the sixteen Peers of Scotland to seats in
that House. Upon that accession it was said by the Right Rai
Prelates of that day that if they admitted so many violent Ptesby-
tenant of the Church of Scotland to have seats in that House (men
so distinguished by their hatred of the rules of the Church of Eng-
land) it would prove destructive of Protestant ascendancy ; and
one Right Rev. Prelate had even gone so far as to assert that it
these sixteen Peers got into what lie called the cauldron of that
House, they would, from their Presbyterian principles, cause it to
boil over and burst. (Hear and laughter.) Now lie appealed to
the House for the result of that prophetic declaration., and
lie thought he might venture to state, without contradiction, that
so far from hostility being shown by those sixteen Presbetc-
terians to the venerable Bench of Bishops, there had always been
a remarkable coincidence, a singular sympathy between those bodies
since they had been placed together. So much fur the anticipated
hostility of the dreaded Presbyterianism. A great deal had been
said at different times about the feelings displayed m the Letters
signed .1. K. It. but lie would venture to say, that there was
nothing in these letters, nor in any of the documents, public or
private, connected with the question betweea the Catholia and
Protestants, which could be put in competition with the declara-
tions contained in the solemn deliberate acts of the Church of Scot-
land at that period, with the strong denunciations twitched against
the Church of England, which die Presbytery had even compared
to the devilish Grecian horse, that being once let in, would set
the State on fire. lie only alluded to these things, to show. whether,
in arguing upon legislative acts, it was right to continue referring
to solemn declaration' in a period of controversy. far less Le
such warm expressions uttered in the heat of argument, as
the Right Reverend Prelate (the Bishop of Chester) had referr
to for an exwmplitication of the feelings of the Catholic body.
(Hear, hear.) 1 or, strong as the language that had been used on
those occasions, and violent as the denunciations had been against
the Church of England and its supporters, some of those who had
been the chief instigators of those ptoceedinp had actually after.
wards become Bishops themselves. (Ilea, hear.) With regard to
the predictions of the clergy upon these subjects, there was a cask
with which he would trouble their lemiships, and which he
thought was completely in point. About one hundred yiars ago
an attempt was made in Ireland to repeal %list was allot the
Sacramental Teat, and upon that occasion a man, emitted to as
much attention as any Prelate upon that bench—he did not dis-
parage.their abilities when he said Dean Swift--was so tar led away
as to say, unfortunately for his fame, that if that Act passed. the
whole Protestant religion would be changed into Presbyterian:sm.
and that ouch an effect would take place the more readily, because