The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1826-03-21 00:00:00

Z.II.E.LSEA AN!) HOSPITAI.S-

The Bill to consolidate several Acts relative Se these Despittas
was read a third time and passed.
.11,1tIES IN INDIA BIM. • •

Mr. C. W. WYNN moved the second reading of this Bin.
Mr. Hl'hlE rose to thank the Right lion. Gentleman fur Wag..
ing in this Bill, although it did not extend so far as be wished.
The Judges in India had, he believed, the power which ttist Bill
pretended to vest in them of directing who should be taken IA
juries ; but he hoped that the Judges would be instructed tone? its
conformity with the practice in Ceylon, and to impannel the Inha-
bitants of the country where the transaction to be tried tookepirica.
He was sure that no law could give greater satisfaction at ,he three
Presidencies. When, three years ago, Sir Alexander Johnson in-
troduced in Ceylon the practice of impannelling juries of ri.!IVVI,
he found them quite as good as European juries. From being aki•
mined as jurors the natives began to take an interest in the pits.
ceedingit of the Court; they felt themselves raised in their min
estimation, and became more sensible of the value of.eharacte-.
He therefore approved of the Bill as far as it went, but was surty
that it was not framed so as to include all oar subjects in India.
Mr. C. W. WYNN replied that the roods eurpowerine ail fit
and worthy persons to be taken on juries appeared to him sufficiently
comprehensive, and to include half castes of course. He was alai
oe an opportunity of adverting to Ceylon. Ile believed that the
system adopted in that country by Sir Alexander Johnson had
been the means of introducing the English jurisprudence moon,:
the natives, and of inspiring a lasting rupees for the English
He was glad to say that that Bill had met with the approbation of
some of the most eminent Judges in India. Ile had learned from
them that Indian jurors displayed eontiderahle sagacity in t'oo
examination of witnesses, and showed themselves in every

net unworthy of their new and important duties. He hoped that
this step was but a heginningtowards rai•ing the natives of India
in the functions, of good citizens, and in the scale of moral im-
portance.
Mr. HUMP. begged leave to remind the Right Her. Gentleman
that the Diil then before the House extended only to the three Pre-
sidencies. Y. applied to a population of about three or four hun.
Bred thousand, while the remainder of our Indian subjects, who
mere proc:atled from its benefits, amounted perhaps to 70 or 80
millions. The Hon. Member concluded by saying that be would
be happy to learn the views of the Right Hen. Gentletnan with re-
spect to the reporters In the Indian Courts.
Alr. IVYNN said he was not disposed to go into the question at
large. Me would merely state that there was no attempt made ge-
nerally to prohibit reports.
tlr. HVbIE said, he supposed he might andentand from that
th•it the right to report in the Courts wss conceded.
The Bill was then read a second time ; to be committed on
Thursda.
IRISH MUSCELLANEWS ESTIMATED.

On she motion kcr should
lease the Chats. _ _

Mr. S. RICE opposed the motion. He complained that Go.
eminent had paid too little attention to the recommendations of
the Commissioners appointed in 11106, to it:quirc into the meteor
that country. Some of the totes in the Estimates then be-
fore the House could not be reconciled with the reeommen.
4stioes of those Commissioners, nor with the evidence which

they adduced. He particularly objected to the voting of money
for the support of the Society for Discountenancing Vire.
H e (Nit.. Rice) objected altogether to cateehetical rewards as highly
improper. In respect to the Kildare-place Society he was free to
acknowledge that that institution, as founded by the Right lion.
Gentleman (Mr. Peel) was calculated to do great good, and for the
foundation of which he was entitled to the greatest praise. But
that institution had departed from the principles on which it was
fo inde3, and therefore he objected to the nee. He objected to the
augmentation of the grant, because it was said that 1040,1100 persons
were to be educated, whereas is appeared from the report that the
number amounted only to 52.404, and that thee made the reading
of the Scriptures a tier put 410111. which was not in accordance with
e principles laid down in the Fourteenth Report of the Commie
'Mires appointed to inquire into the State of Education in Ireland.
The Hon. Member concluded by proposing es an amendment, tire
adoption of four tesolutlons to the efect, that " the House concur
ted in the opinion of the Commissioners of Inquiry In the
of the year TBOO, of which the Archbishops of Armagh and Clearer,
toe Bishop of Killals. ar.d the Proton of Trinity College, after-
wards Bishop of I.eighlin and Ferns. foe red pan. that it would be
impossible to introduce any system of educuion inm Ireland, unless
It was explicitly avowed and divinctly understood that no rtempt
should be made to interfere with the religious principles of any de-
nominotion of Christians." _

GOULBURN thought it necessary to make a few observa-
tion& in order to relieve Aimed( from any imputations of negli.
genre which might be unjustly supposed to attach to him or to the
conduct of die Irish Government. He intended, however, to eon-
fine himself to a single point on the subject, and not to go Into nu-
m/roue details; foe the simple question which he felt himself ca'led
of to answer wee, whether the Irish Government had evinced
as much zeal and atter,doe te promote the measures connected with
education in Ireland as ought to have been done. It did not ap-
pear to him that much explanation was requisite to show that the
course which had been adopted and pursued was the best. In dis-
Mating the question, he begged leave to remind the House of the
recommendation given by the Commissioners of Inquiry in 1806.
Aceneding to their suggestion the Kildare-place Society was esta-
blished. on the general principle of comprising all classes of Cori'.
Cane, and under the influence of the recommendation to which lie
had adverted, a selection had been made, consisting of persons of
every religious description in Ireland. There was no exclusive
appointment of Protestants, several Catholics were Incorporated in
is. of whom some still continued members. There had been no
disunion to prevent the operation of the prinelifie on which the Kil.
dire-place bociety was founded. The plan acted on was to extend
education throughout Ireland as nroch as possible. That was the
original recommendation of the Commissioners. To that object
the Kildare-place Society had been directed, and the Irish Govern.
ment gave its most zealous co-operation. In addition to what was
breirMusly the practice in that respect, the Government of Ireland
ad constantly in view two points, which were, to connect religious
improvement with such instruction in learning as was deemed ade-
quate to the kind of schools formed, and also to make such a corn.
le:intim between the children as should Imo the least occasion for
any distinction between the pupils on ac:nunt of a difference of
religioun tenets. It had been frequently objected to the condirat
of the Kildare-place Society that they had endeavoured to make
'prosetes by means of the opportunity which their cootmul upon
the achoolp which were instituted to promote education afforded to
them. Of that Objectionable matter the Government bad purilied
V.h. Kildare-piece Society. It was deemed prudent to maintain
the existing institutions for education while the new system was in
progress. To that resolution. grounded on the recommendation of
the Comraluioners of Inquiry, the Lord Lieutenant of Ire.
land had adhered, and he (3oulhum) did not think that the
cOUTI4 which was followed by the Irish Government would be con-
sidered unwise, by any person who reflected on the difficulty and
delay necessarily attending the Introduction of the new system pro-
posed to be extended in Ireland. It would certainly have been wrong,
while looking forward to a more improved system, to destroy in me
Sat-A.1%1 those schools which, though not of the more perfect kind
in contemplation, had been yet found to confer considerable benefit
on the wete orsociety in that country. After the recommendatioto
of the Commissioners had been received, the Melt Government ex.
*Periedced great difficulty in finding persons competent to put into
erectile! execution the improve:nents which were proposed. If siren-
gers to the grounds on which the measures were chosen for adoption
had been selected to reduce .hem to practice, much inconvenience
trust immediately result from the ignorance which, such persons
crust feel in respect to the different bearings of the question, which
had induced the Commissioners in the first Instance to propose the
recommendations. With a view, therefor, to make the plan as
complete as possible, It was deemed expedient that those gentlemen,
who had attentively and minutely entered into the details of the in.
quiry, should be selected to hare their own suggestions carried into
effect. Thus the experiment might be expected to be consistent
le fact with theory. That proceeding of the Lord Lieutenant
impound to be dictated by the soundest policy. The present board
comprised active, intelligent and zealous individuals, from whose
shill and exertions the most beneficial consequences might be ra-
t!onailyhopet.l. Tolavdown a new system renational education, and
to chinos its advantages to the Inhabitants of an entire country, was
an talliir not to be effected In a hurry. It was a task of time
and troub'e. Under that consideration, the Irish Government
ha I given various rums to the schools which had been
evablished on the old plan, with the view of preventing the ad-
vances which were already made in education from being sac:Mixd
during the trial of the new mode. In determining the appropria-
tion of those sums, the Lord Lieutenant was influenced by the re.
commendation of the Commissioners of Inquiry, as being so con-
versant with the suite of the ease as to know in what manner such
sums might be must judiciously expended. The object of the
anomdmeht which was proposed, appeared to him ft amount to a
destruction o! ell those public schools which had been instituted.
With regard to the vote which be intended to propose for the pre.
sent year, thongh it might be considered at first view to exceed that
of the preceding, it would not do so in point of fact. Last year
the estimate was calculated at 30.000 e; but, in consequence of wait.
ing for the Report of the tl,nnmissieners, only 22,0e0i. had been
proposed. It was now found necessary to supply the deficiency in
the Kildare-place funds occasioned by the extra exjenditure. He
mertit to propose a grant to the Kildare.place society, exclu-
sive of a sum .1 50901. to the Lora Lieutenant, in supneet of the
aids which be had devoted io"edocetioe in the manner already
mentioned. Ile hoped the House would act so as not to give occa-
ion stigmatise by implication the measures which had been al-
reedy brought into practice with great utility. He trusted that the
House would not deprive Ireland of the benefit of those schools.
Fur the good results arising from the Kiltiare-place Society, he
asked the House to look at, and to compare the state of education In
Jugend before and since the instituttoo that Society. He did not
regard the number of children, thou 2,000 was not a trifling
amount of children receiving the bone of an improved system of
eduction. What he considered the pstamennt advantage was to be
disoneared in the relief which that enentry had derived in being
liberated from thoweevils with which it raid bee o previously addicted.
He felt great satisfaction in mooing the Home that theexertions of
the Kiidere-place Society had been productive of the best eliZe,s,
and that the progress of education was successfully advancing te
gra:Hying degree. under the impulse which was given to it from
that quarter. He had the authority (as we melees:tied) of one of
the Catholic prelates in the South of Ireland in fay..ur of the Kil.
dare-place system. That prelate had sanctioned th • admission of
children in his diocese to • Kildare-piece seined, which was under
the patronage of a eentleman who might be supposed obnoxious to
t.ie opponents of that Society. The &dote which he thought it
would be roost discreet for the House to pursue Was, to allow the
proposed plan time to take effect.
The SPEAKER then put the amendment, on which a division
was called, and strangers ordered to withdraw. However, before
the celery was cleared,
Air. F. LEW IS rose and proceeded to address the House. The
Hen. Gentleman was inaudible f some time, in consequetee of
the confusion of persona returning to occupy seats in the gallery.
We at length understood him as adverting to the difficulties which
the introduction of the new system to Ireland had to contend
against. it was obliged to combat the prejudlees which were
always found to attend on whatever was old, however imperfect.
The activity minced by the priests was also a considerable obstacle
to the advancement of the principle on whieh the new Diatom was
founded. He was desirous to explain the came of the discrepancy
between the number of scholars returned by the Kildare-place So-
ciety. as attending their schools, and the number furnished by the
thine,. The Feedety had reckoned the children as amounting to
$O.OOO. That calculation was made of the name' of those scholars
which were on the roils, and thenatural expectation that so many
would have been in attendance. The Survey. which was made on
the number of children who actually received instruction at the time
ct the inquiry, only gave an amount of 32,000 in attendance. The
Hon. 11l ember eulogised the conduci of the Kildore-place doeiety.
Than the indisquals who comprised it, no persona were ever better
qualiEed, or more willing to serve the public in any country or
et airy venni than the members of the Kildare-plete Society.
Tim importance of educating the children of all religious denomi-
nations together. could lot, he thought, be 400 strongly Insisted
upon. It WWI better calcuired than any other system fo root out
the neve• of jealousy and tliqr list which were so thickly sown when
children were educated separately, The feelings of concord which
a united modem of education tended to produce was indispensable
to subvert the want of cordialil which was at present observable.
flowerer much he respected the intentions of individuals, lie could
never agree to ary system in which the principle of united edam.

tion was not held in view. The attempt to unite Catholics and
Protestants in the same school, under any of the existing systems
which prevailed, was altogether futile. Ills attention had been di-
rected with triumph to school!' where Roman Catholic children
went against the wishes of their priest and their parents ; these
miserable little beings had falsehood in their hearts and deceit in
their faces when they crept to those schools, and for his part he
thought such a system by no means advantageous ; he could never
look at it as a triumph (hear). at the same time he had no hesita-
tion in expressing his opinion that no public system of education
ought to be supported in which religious instruction was not secured.
But yet what good could be expected from a system of education
which was averse to the feelings of the people ? What could he
think when he saw a Roman Catholic child read the testament,
which he thought was a book it was dangerous to look at 1 Such
education could surely produce no good consequences. lhe fact
was, • great proportion of the population in Ireland had got a sort
of unintelligible idea that the bible was a Protestant book, and that
there was nothing spiritual or good to be got from reading i:.
Whilst this prcjudlce prevailed It was little good to offer the bible.
What he desired was, to see religious instruction given in a way in
which itwookl be willingly taken. Without this 'inform of education
was werth anything. Ile made these observations without deoact-
ing from the Kildare-place Society, many of the members of which
were most distinguished and usetul characters. Nor was there any
Society in Ireland which had done such extensive good ; but whilst
stating this, he was bound to add, that the Kildare-place Society,
abiding by its rule'', could never obtain the object of imparting a
general system of education Which would be cordially received.
This tout been testified by experience, and in consequence the Kil-
dare-place Society had connected itself with other Societies which
pursued systems of education incompatible with its rules. One of
the rules of the Kildare-place Society was, that religious belief should
not make any difference in the selection of schoolmasters. This was
one of•t he fundamental rules; but the Association for Dimou n tensile-
log V Ice, which was theChurchSociety,would allow no schoolmasters
hut 'ermine of the Protestant persuasion. Yet the Kildare-place
Sostfety bad q schools in conjunction with the Church Society.
So it was with the London Hibernian School Society, one of the
regulations of which was. that the Bible should be put into the
hands of the children from their earliest years. and that no version
but the authorised vernon should be introduced. These regula.
dons were aubvereive of the rules of the Kildare-place Society,
with which. the Hibernian School Society was in connexion to a
tar •e extent. In the schools of all these Societies the child was
tolt " There is the book on which Christianity is founded, and
make your religion out of it." The Roman Catholic Clergy said,
on the contrary, " Here is the book, to be read noly when you
have an opportunity of having it explained by a proper person."
This was the difference, anti as long as it existed the system
adopted by the Kildareeplace Society would never he cordially and
generally assented to by the Roman Catholics of Ireland. In lieu
of that imperfect system, it was recommended to suhstitute another,
to the leading points of which he should advert. it was proposed
that the children of all religious Persuasions should be educated
at the rime schools, but that they should be instructed in re-
ligion in separate classes, in rooms apart from each other; and
when the religious instruction wasconeluded. should return together
again, and be instructed In common in all other branches of educe-
ti io. By Otis mode the oblections of the Roman Catholics would
be met, foe proper persona might be appointed to explain the
Scriptures to Roman Catholic children. One rule which would be
enforced In those schools was, that no book ahould be introduced
calculated to bring contempt on any other sect, or produce ill-nature
towards Its members. This was a regulation which could not be
valued too highly. Far too little stress was laid on the Catholic
education new going on in Ireland ; it partook of all the feeling i
and character springing from the past and present situation of the
people. There were people who kept up the soreness of feeling
which existed. It was also kept up by the introduction of impro.
per books. lie did not now allude to the life of Capt. Frency. and
other books which had been adverted to, but et these poor schools
the children were glad to get any books they could. They had not
the means of access to the works of Mrs. Barbatild, and the excel.
lent and unobjectionable books which were used in the schools of
the Kildare-place Society. The consequence was, that very hymn).
per books were often placed in the hands of chikiren at those
schools. The system now recommended by the Commission would
of course exclude such books, and accommodation would be given
to all classes. This was much wanted, for what was now to he
seen but excellent accommodation for a few children, and miserable
accommodation for crowds. As to the proposal for placing funds in
the hands of the Catholic Bishops, he could not approve of It. If a
system of education was to be conducted upon a great scale, it
should be by responsible persons—persona under the control and
management of the Government. He could never recommend that
money should be placed in the hands of Catholics for the education
of Catholics. Such a measure would only extend the evils of the sys-
tem which at present prevailed--a system which we had no right to
complain of, because we contribute nothing to it. But that system
certainly had evils connected with it, thnueh he would not be un-
derstood as recommending that it should .be broken down without
substituting another and a better. 3luch time, he was confident,
need not pass before this should be donee if the House set its mind
and will to the work. (Hear.) Some there were who would op.
pow any system of education. Ile had heard it said, in oppo-
sition to the proposal for a united system of education, that the Irish I
' were cot united in manhood, and should not be in infancy. He
(Mr. F. L.) would say, let no man Mittel such denunciations, how.
ever leduential the orator may be from whom they came. There were
rational objectior.s to the Kildare-plage Society's system, as stated
by the Roman Catholic's, but he should set at nought the denuncl.
awns of even the Catholic hierarchy against a system of education
which was not subject to rational ohjections. ,The good sense of
' the Roman Cotholles themselves would be sufficient to overpower
all such futileobjections.
Mr. M. FITZGERALD said,
,the principle which seemed to
be allowed by all parties was, that it was desirable education should
be extended withotit religious interference. The lion. Member
who just sat down contended this funds shnujil not be given to Cs.
tholicelor the education of Catholics ; with his enlightened views
would the Hon. Member contend that the necessary funds should
be placed exclusively in the hands of Protestants for the education
of Catholics ? Three hundred sod forty thousand Catholics, it ap-
peared, were being educated without any assistance. Until the'
free assent of the clergy and the people was obtained, no system of
education would succeed; and that uuion and cordiality, which was I
the great desideratum, would never be obtained. Until the educe. 1
Lion societies agreed that the Sacred Scriptures should not be used
as a school book, they could neva obtain the eo.operatiot. of the
Catholic clergy. Fer his part, hp did not see the necessity of using
the Scriptures ad a school book. He had reason to think it was not
the system which prevailed in this country. It did not prevail at
Eton, and Westminster. and Harrow, wiuth were the great semi.
naries of education for the higher ranks in England. He appealed
to those whom he addressed, whether they hai not derived their re.
hews education from their mothers or tutors, and not from the
lessons they learned in public schools. He did not see why reli.
gioue Instruction should not be left to the parents and clergy of the 1
children. The two parties were tiow•figitring for the scholars ; but
he hoped the public schools wool I nevef be made an arena. Whilst
the desire for making converts continued, hostility would prevail,
and an harmonious system of e lucation would never be attained.
As far as mere reading, writing, and arithmetic went, the peasants
of Ireland were, he believed, mere highly educated than the people
in any other portion of the empire. This was particularly the
ease among Ms own constituents. Nay, he could say, that the
lowest classes of the Irish werebot only well educated in the rudi-
ments of a common education, br t were efficiem in much higher
attainments. Many of Mein pussessed an intimate knowledge of
the classics, and of the higher branches of the mathematics. Ile
did not know whether, if he excluded the learned proleseions and
the blue stocking ladies (a laugh), he might not say the attainments
of the Irish peasantry were equal to those of the highest classes
of persons in this country. He had seen, in his part of the country
boys running about barefooted, with their (Lose, their Homer, 11
and their Cicero under their arm, and who were as capable of
translating those authors, as °replying' problem in algebra, as any
well educated gentlemen in this country. But he conceived some. 1
thing else was requisite besides the knowledge of Greek, Latin,
and arithmetic, to render the coadition of such &people happy, or I
to produce among them a well.arganized stale of society. He re-
collected when he first began life having received a letter from an
eminent statesman, and a riersdo competent to form a correct esti.
mate of the wants and condition of a tree people,—he alluded to '
the father of the present 3latquis of Lansdown—in which that
able person observed,—se What you want in Ireland is not a due. ,
rary education among her people, but the inculcation of useful and
practical habits of ioduserye wide') would teach them how ue bettor
themselves in life." It was this sort of education which he (Mr. M. 1
Fitzgerald) thought they still wanted in that country; and as the
Cominiesioners of Education had recommended a system which
oul-aced religious instruction, it was therefore that he thought
their report valuable; it was for such purposes as those that he
wished to see the money of the public granted. But as long as the
education of the people of Ireland continued to be administered
through various little kncpsof persons who were perfectly irrespon-
sible to Parliament, whatever might be their disposition (and he
had no dimht of the excellency and purity of their motives), they I
could not effect the object desired, especially so long as the system of
proselytism, which, unfortunately, prevailed in his country, was
coneiderei by those individuals to be correct and proper ; for while
they continued to entertain that opinion, it would necessigily in•
duce them to ainvert the use of the funds that were granted to theta;
though he did not believe they ramified any thing by that coseersion,
it being his opinion that the very attempt counteracted itself. All
that was requisite to be done was, to pm sue the common system of
education, inculcate principles of morality into the minds of tenth
the Catholic and the Protestant, and let the partit' be each left to
seek the Scriptures for himself.' He conceived that by this course I
there would be a greater desire created to read the Scriptures than I
by the system now punned; and he believed that the res'alt of their',
reading die Scriptures, unblessed and uninfluenced, would be the '
extension of the reformed religidn. (Hear, hear.) The Irish were'
essentially a religious people. They were of all countries the most
incapable of treating religion with indifference or levity. A very
strong disposition prevailed among them to read the Scriptures ;
but the House would be counteracting that disposition if they suf.
feted parties so make it a matt& of reward, of bribery, and of se.
duetioo, to induce the Catholic population to read it, or to seek to
induence them by any such unworthy means.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said there did not appear to him to be any
great difference of opinion between the Hon. Member (Mr. S.
lime) and those lion. Members who supported that Hon. Gentle-
man, anti his Right Hon. Friend (31r. Gottiburn). They all seem-
ed to be agreed in the expediency and necessity of public instruc-
tion being afforded to the people of Ireland; and he aheuld there-
fore be very sorry that any false inference should be drawn from the 1
murk which lee Right /lon. Friend deemed it right to take. The
question to he deteniiirol was, under what eupaintendance should
public instnenion in Ireland be permanently placed? and what
should be done with clone institotiona that now existedf until that

THE BRITISH PRESS.

permanent system was established ? He thought they were all
agreed that a permanent establishment should be, if possible.
formed by a regularly constituted and responsible local commis-
sion. This was, he believed, the opinion of both Catholics and
Protestants. He understood Dr. Murray to have said that the Ro-
man Catholic and the Protestant population ought to be educated
together in common, each being left to receive religious instruc-
tions from their respective pastors. It was also the opinion of Dr.
Murray that very important extracts might be made from the
Scriptures. which the Roman Catholics and the Protestants might
indiscriminatelyand concurrently be allowedand encouraged to read.
If that could be done, that was the true principle, he conceived,
upon which the education of the people ought to be founded ; and
he did hope that no difficulties would be thrown In the May by
which Instruction on that principle might be effected. The Com-
missioners were now seeking to establish the best system to carry
this principle into practice, and he wished thesb every possible suc-
cess In their laudable undertaking. lie thought no objection could
be made to the Commiesioners who had been selected for this pur.
pose. They were those very Commissioners who had pointed out
the course to which the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Rice) alluded, and
they were the very same by whom the Report so often referred to
had been prepared. He thought it was impossible more efficient
or competent persons could have been selected. But the expert.
ment which they had recommended was not yet sufficiently
proved, and the question therefore was, whether or no, in the
anticipation of success, the !loose should put an end to the exist-
ing institutions, which, though imperfect, were sli they could de.
pond upon at this moment. lie thought the effect of the Itesolu.
Lions proposed would he to stigmatize those institutions, which, in
his opinion, ought to be avoided. If they were institutions doing
great, though imperfect good, let not the house treat them with
censure. At the time the Kildare-place cstablishtnent was Mad-
tuted, he had the honour to hold the office of Chief Secretary of
Ireland. During that period, he certainly meant to have carried
into full effect the principles laid down in the Fourteenth Report
of the Commissioners on Education. (hear. hear.) He always
thought, as the conversion of the Roman Ca bolic was entirely oot
of the question, an educated Roman Catholic was infinitely better
than an illiterate and uncivilized one. He hoped the House would
proceed to conduct the education of the poor of Ireland upon the
same principle ; that they would cauti-usly avoid mating any
slams among the Raman Catholics, by inducing them them in sus.
pea that there was e contemplated interference with their religious
tenets; and that they would avoid paralysing their own exertions
by exciting an appribension that their real object in instructing the
poor of Ireland was the conversion of the Roman Catholics to Pro-
testantism. Ile had already said that it was his intention to nave
adopted the very course now pointed out by the Commissioners.
He had even had a Bill prepared for the purpose; and had selected
seven or eight individuals as Commissioners to carry it into effect.
It was only after several serious eonsultat;ons on the subject that
the establishment of a public Board for superintending the educa-
tion in Ireland west at that time abandoned. But while the subject
was under consideration, day found existing a number of private
individuals who emaciated themselves upon the very principle of
giving an education to Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Dis-
senters indiscriminately ; and it was then proposed to select that
Society as an instrument to carry into effect the recommendation
cintained in the Fourteenth Report of the Commissioners. The
Right Hon, Gentleman then read an extract from the Report, in
which it was recommended to appoint Commissioners to super.
intend the education of the pees of Ireland ; and he asked whether
it could be maintained that at this moment there existed well a
Commission? If not, would it be wiee or prudent to paralyze the
exertions of the Kildare-place Society, through which so much
b-nefit was &tie to Ireland. The distribution of books of useful
knowledge in the cheapest form was one of the beneficial results of
that establishment, and was the House then prepared to put an
end to It? No less than fifty thousand children, half of
whom were Roman Catholics, were educated by and through the
instrumentolity of that Institution. The books issued by them
were approved by all sects. Dr. Doyle had expressed him decided
approbatic.n of them.
In 181/1 there were distributed by this Institution - WAD
1811) - . 42.811
1829 . 128,733

1621 . - .
153.695
1622 . . • . . 1115.218
1323 . . . . . . . 106.230
WM - - ' • 121.8101
1825 - . - 172.816
-

M*king in all • • 950.702
tract* distributed by that Society, the nature of which met with
universal approbation, excelt. in one single instance, and that was
of a trifling nature and was immediately remedied. This was a
very strong proof of the borto fide intention of the Society in the dis-
tribution of books. He would take one particular school, which
was open to the public, as an instance of the firmness by which
those institutions were conducted—he alluded to what was called
the Model School, which was a school wherein persons intended
to be dispersal throughout the country as teachers received their
education. In that school there were 400 boys and 295 girls. Of
the boys 1.11 belonged to the Etablished Church, 17 were Dimene
hers, and 223 Roman Catholics. This was a very pregnant probf
that this institution was not actuated by any desire to give exclu-
wisely education to Protestants. Of the girls there were 79 of the
Established Church. 9 Dissenters, and 209 Roman Catholics. It
should be remembered that these children were intended as teachers
in other schools. AU that he contended for at present was, that
the House would not paralyze the exertions of this Society,
Rby implying a stigma oft it, which must be the cue it' the
esolution proposed by the Hon. Gentleman were passed.
He thought that until they had other Commissioners appointed. it
would be but prudent to preserve and protect the present institu-
tions, whose usefulness could not be disputed. There were two
questions connected with the vote of to-night. The first was, as
to the ordinary vote for the maintenance of this institution ; and
the other was, es to the vote fur an increased grant. Supposing no
increase had been proposed, the original sum would have passel, he
believed,without any remarks whatever; but the objection was that
there was an increase proposed, and it would appear that It was
conceived to grant this additional aura would be implying an tin.
qualified panegyric on the Kildare-place Institution. But be
tnought that by voting this increased sum to the Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland, to he applied by him to the use of the Institution if he
should think tit, would avoid any ohiecdon on that ground, and
would not at the same time imply any stigma which would in the
least degree affect the usefulness of the Institution. The difference,
then, between him and the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. S. Ricr) was so
small that he trusted they should not upon a subject of such ex-
treme delicacy induce any dissensions in Ireland by their appearing
to have anytlissensions rpon the question in that House. He thought
they were all agreed upon the principles of education. Ile hardly
knew whether he had rightly understood the Hon. Member (Mr.
M. Fitzgerald), when he (Mr. Peel) thought that Hon. Gentle.
man to have expressed a desire to see religious instruction scpa.
rated from the education of the poor of Ireland. Ile confessed he
never could consent to a system of education of a public nature.
wherein the inculcation of moral obligations was not founded on
religious instruction ; with that system of education the principles
the Christian religion ought to be inseparably blended. He hoped
be should never live to see a race of young moral philosophers
trained up by Government, and taught to derive a knowledge
of moral duty from any other source, or to found them on any
rather principles. than on those of i.duistianity. (Hear, hear.). lie
had not the slightest wish to see the ragged children of Ireland
running about with their Horace and their Cicero under their arms
as the young peasants of Kerry appeared to do. (Laughter.) As
he cordially agreed In the principles of the two first resolutions o'
the lion. Member (Mr. 8. Rice), he should be sorry to negative
the amendment, and therefore hoped the Hon. Gentleman would
withdraw it altogether, because if not, disapproving as he (11r.
Peel) did of the other resolutions, there would be no alternative
left him but to negative them all, and thus to vote against prinei-
pie+ in which he cordially concurred.
Mr. 111. FITZGERALD explained. Ile had not ssid that
religious instruction should be neglected, but that it wan inex-
pedient to introduce it into any of the schools, because the children
might be taught by their respective pastors.
;Ir. Secretary PEEL.—Dr. Murray was prepared to go a great
deal farther than the Hon. Gentleman; for Dr. Murray said that
there might be selections made from the bible which might be read
indiscriminately by both Catholics and ['Totem/tots.
......._

Sir J. NEWPORT thought the object of ha lion. Friend (Mr.
S. Rice) might be obtained without throwing any thing like a
stigma on the Kildare•plese Institution. lie believed that that
catablishoienr, as far as thej were able to divest themselves fro;
any thing like proselytism, had succeeded ; and lie would re.
c,mniend his Hon. Friend, if the principle contained in his first
resolution were agreed to, to withdraw the remaining resolutions,
and let the House go into the Committee. That principle was no
other than what was stated in the Report, which declared that no
general plan of education In Ireland, however wisely Contrived,
could be carried into effect, Onless it were previously provided that
no attempt should be made to interfere whit, influence, or disturb
the religious tenets of the different sects of that country. This wee
the principle upon which the Kildare-lilac° Society professed to be
established ; was it possible that any resolution embracing that
principle could relent upoh that Instimtion ? With every respect
for the 31embers of the Kildare-place Society, he still thought there
were great objections to making parliamentary grants from year to
year to that Institution, composed of individuals who were con-
scantly changing, and wholly irresponsible. If they meant to
make the education of thirlrish effectual, they must consult the
feelings of the people (hear, hear); and whatever might be thought
either in that House or out of it, they never could render education
effectual unless the people received it heartily, and 3.4 a measure
of benefit, and not as a measure of compulsion. Did they not find
that above 300,000 were still educated by Catholics; being six
times as many as were educated by aid of all the parliamentary
grants that had been made. If he were told that the education
given by the Catholks was imperfect, he would answer the observa-
tion in the words of a Catholic Prieto, addressed to the Marquis of
Tavistock, who on wring into one of these Catholic schools found
Roderic Random among the books used there. Upon asking why
such a book was suffered to he read, the Priest said tbat the real
fact was, the schools were so poor and their means io scanty, that
they could not procure proper books, and the boys therefore brought
such books as they could get. They could not be answerable, said
the Priest, undee these chrenmatances for the books that were read.
But, said the Right Ifon. Hasonet, if Government would not give
the poor Catholic an education without tying id n down to cond.tioes.
lie could not pubmit• that those Catholic schools should be abo-
lished bad and inefficient as they were. He believed that the Kil-
dare-place Institution had done great good by publishing books at
so cheap a rate as it had done : but for his own part lie could never
understand why a system could not be devised to give education
with efilet, without producing any collision of religious opinions.
He knew not why five days in the week should not be set apart
for general inairuction, • and that on the sixth day the boys

should be transferred to the pastors or the several persuasions
to which the children belonged. tinder these circumstances he
hoped the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. firmiburn) would not see
the necessity of negativing the two first Resolutions proposed In
the amendment. If the House negatived them, they wouli nega-
tive a proposition expressly laid down by the Commissioners in
their Report.
Mr. GOIJI.BURN mold see no advantage to result from the
House agreeing to a Itesolution containing an abstract proposition
on which they were already agreed ; while he, at the same time,
thought, by assenting to it, it would produce a bad effect out of
doors.

Mr. 11. BUTTERWORTH spoke In favour of the Kildare-
place Society ; and observed, that if the bible were a work of
divine inspiration, it could not be improper to introdace it into
the schools intended for general education. IVith regard to the
objection of reading the bible, it did not rest with the people of
Ireland, but was exclusively the work of the Catholic Priests. He
had just received from a member of the Irish committee a series of
resolutions, drawn up without any Protestant interference what-
ever. They were prepared by a number of Roman Catholic
schoolmasters, and they showed in what way the people were
interfered withl by the priests. The Hon. Gentleman then pro..
ceeded to teed the resolutions, which were signed by upwards of
6000 Catholic adults. As well as we could collect from the in
distinct tone of the lion. Gentleman, who spoke from under the
gallery, the first two or three resolutions expressed the desire
which the resolutioniets felt to read the scriptures in their own
" venerated and beloved tongue." that the society had cm:l-
I pared the Irish translation with the Rhenish and other texts,
and had found it free from any radical errors, and that
it was incumbent on those who impugned its correctness
to Supply a better and more perfect translation. The
Honourable Member proceeded to read the resolutions. bttt the
further purport of them we were prevented from hearing by the
impatience expressed by the noose. He said they were not the sen-
timents of those individuals only with whom they had originated;
they expressed the feelings and opinions of a large portion of the
people of Ireland. As a proof of the moral state of the lower class
of Irish, lie would inform the House, that a Learned Judge, while
on the circuit at the assizes of Cork, declared, in his charge to the
Jury, that the administering of oaths appeared to be useless: that
they had no effect on those classes, for they treated them as neither
religious nor moral obligations. This learned individual also ob-
served on that occasion, that he was tired of trying and condemning
criminals • and, in his opinion, nothing would so much tend to
improve die state of society as the introduction of a system of edu-
cation on scriptural and moral principles. The Hon. Gent. then
pro:eeded to observe, that if bibles were promulgated they might be
read without note or comment, and would produce great benefit.
He could not sit down without protesting against any measures
proscribing, as was the case in the present instance, the Holy
Scriptures.
Mr. HUTCHINSON disagreed with the Hon. Gent. who had
last spoken, in his views of religickis education. It had been ob-
served during the course of the evening, that religious instruction
was not given at our first schools in England—those of Westmins-
ter, Harrow, or London; and why, therefore, was it to form the
basis of the schools in Ireland ? lie would ask the Hon. Member,
who seemed so anxious to proselytise the Irish by having Bibles
translated into the Irish dialect, how many of the peasants did he
suppose could read Irish? (hear.) Really it appeared to him the
lion. Gent. was in a state of gross and scandalous ignorance on that
point. The Hon. Gent. had also supposed, by imagining religious
instruction necessary, that the Catholic Clergy left their flocks with.
out moral and religious instruction, but this was a libel on that
body. If the lion. Member would account for their present state of
deplorable ignorance, let him turn over the pages of Irish or English
history, and mark the degradations, the oppressinne, and sufferings
of that people. Let him read also the penal code, where he would
find that parents who educated their offspring rendered themselves
liable to the penalty of death, and that those who sent their children
to another country to be instructed were viewed as doing that which
was highly criminal. It was a mistake to suppose the Catholic
Clergy denied the use of the Rible to their flocks. They only said
they found that in it, on which :hey founded an objection to placing
indiscriminately in the hands of individuals at any period of life.
It was a book which they considered required comment and ex-
planation ; this was the view they took of it. But the lion. Gent.
would throw it into every child's hands, saying, " Take the book ;
and if you cannot work out your salvation, you are a blockhead,".
(laughter), and irredeemable." His (Mr. Hutchinson's) view of
the question was, that the pr of Ireland should lIICSTC education
generally, but thatl pore
religious instruction ought not to be mixed up
with it. lie begged pardon oldie House for having detained them,
hut he had been induced to rise by the observations which had tat-
len from the Hon. Member (Mr. Butterworth.) If he supposed by
the religious education he had proposed, that he should be able to
shake the attachment of the Catholics to their religion, they wore
falling into a mistake which would give them a great deal of vain
trouble. If they looked into the history of ancient times. they
would find that men's notions on subjects connected with religion
were most likely to be reformed by allowing men to worship tied in
their own way. They should recollect that the Catholics is ere now
worshipping, as we worshipped at no very distant time, and were
therefore entitled to some consideramion.
Mr S. RICE consented to withdraw his amendment.

The original motion was then put and carried without a division.
SUPPLY—BRITISH MUSEUM.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. H. BANKES moved for 13 3921. to dafray the expenses of
the British Museum. The lion. Gentleman observed that he felt
gratified in being able to inform the House, that this establishment
was attracting the notice of the public to a very considerable extent.
It had been visited Ey as many as 100,,0213 persons since last year.
Mr. 111 31E said he thought it would add materially to the con-
venience of the public, if the 31useum were own four days nut of
the week instead of three. As the lion. Member who moved this
vote was one of the trustees, he (3lr. Hunity had thought it ex-
pedient to take this occasion for stating what he believed would, if
complied with, meet the wishes of many who might be unable to
atter,d no the other days.
Mr. H. BANKES said the tntstees were most anxious to consult
the wishes of the public, and he would certainly communicate with
them. It was, however, necessary he thought that one day should
be devoted to cleaning anti keeping the things in proper order, and
he did not think that two days out of the week were too many to be
allowed to those who were anxious to visit the Museum with more
important views than the mere gratification of curiosity. The
objects of such individuals would be defeated if they were obliged
to attend during all the bustle which characterised the public days.
Uncles these circumstances he could not help feeling that the sup.
gestion of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen ought not to be adopted
without some consideration. (Hear.)—Agreed to.