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each , —.4es stood, - `:°bill e
IttgaVs
cipal cause of the delay.: the matter bed bees stabesqueotly in the
elaster's office, and part of the d bad occurred in the pro-
grats of the case was owing to the of Counsel, who
.often procured the pastponemeut of the hewing of causes for their
own convenience. It wouldeeem than that the complaint against
' the Court of Chancery consisted in the Lord Chancellor not having
given judgment on an informal petition. The next petition was
Selo( Mr. lioneywood Yates, who sold an estate five and twenty
ifejedego to Mr. Pitman. It subsequently passed into the bands
ea gentleman, once a di-tinguished Member of that Reuse, Mr.
Ricardo. Mr. Yates sought the recovery oe this property, on the
, ground of the sale by which it was disposed of being an unfair one,
' end bp • tel that Mr. Ricardo had, in a codicil to his will,
. .. , ,000/. to defend this property, should his title to
• Now he (the Solicitor-General) had heard from
radio lo judge, who lived in that part of the country,
at
ON* Ow
_petitioner's forma property was situated, that there
tells se Map* whatever for impeaching this sale; and this peti.
den was ' as he supposed. merely to throw an sir of Mi-
di...ea the of chancery, and so induce the public to believe
=homeliest geseinge his suit because an opulent individual
11 to appropriate 50,0110!. to defend hie right to
tbfp By the introduction of this part of Mr. Ricode's
Wit loto .podebis Ms Yates would fain make the public believe
wit smell *Wee proeeeute. his claim In the Court of
Uleneety. The • petition which the Hon. Member laid before
the Haime was heel Mr. Guromow who was one of the legatees
claiming under the will of die late Dem of Queenshemy. The
Sueenamy CMS sea genets* knows to every pews.. Aa award
1110,01111. of diem bad hems nide* vour of lb.. Delbe of Bac-
eleuch, and it had been foreleme..time abatiat the
=
given by the late Duke of gibee- es" 'a Id stied etreett. .
le Sonsidera ble time the lessee awe det deemed valid, amend 0 they
claw set aside, and a nil was order to be gloms
belless who held them. LI their dairne were settled, end idly
tashi:ms
=dorms and debts on estate were settled in the
of Session in Scot it was impossible for the Lod '
-=hot to make disteibuden serf the property to the legatees,
claims could not coma he until prior ones were satisfied • the
Chtneellor could not give away the money of other people.
Court of Chancery, in consideration of the large amount of
*eiwty in its bands, did mere for the legatees than It was boued
V'b.
tad% by main a distribution amongst them of a fourth of their
Vei,.. legeeies, and not making a large one In order that it
in
tbe secure having sufficient funds to meet the claims of
creditors and ebbnants, whenever those claims should
HO. &sided by the Courts of Session in Scotland. Mr. Guentuow,
whetted el of 5,0001. received, as well as the other Legatees,
deb pepttt of his legacy t and he had the authority Olin
limey, the solicitor for the legatees, to say, that no blame wbstitior
was imputed by the legatee to the Court of Chancery for umemelemy
, . Whatever delay existed, existed in the Courts of Salim la
d, as their decision was netermary before there could 111,4 bleat
of the case. In truth, the Court of Chancery went ookof
ha way to accommodate the legatees, mid the executor to the Wats
mewed him, that he considered the treatment of the cambs
Court of Chancery so far front censurable, as highly comment..
The next petition was That of Mr. Gourley, and his answer Mehl
was, that it was the petition of a mailman. An H . mid Leen*
Friend of his (Mr. Brougham) had been knacrtz
n for not
presenting a petition from that individual ; and la ' ' to ii
warn his lien. Friend (Mr. Williams), that he, for , fli
petition, would stand in the danger of 'similar
laugh.) Mr. Gourley was stronger and taller (a la ) r.
Hon. Friend ; and although he knew the courage and spirit of his
Honourable Friend—although he was fully aware of the animus
with which he would resist an attack or insult put upon him—
yet he apprehended that he would stand In equal peril with his lie.
sou.able and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham) for
iipthoe selddi
'lda Honourable Friend had omitted to do. He deiserUb
four of the petitions which had been laid on the - ;be charged
them all with Inaccuracy and misrepresentation, and the last-he
with direct and positive madness. The last petition wee
urged sfalr. ileathcote. His case consisted in being attached fee
t putting in au answer to a bill filed in the Court of Chancery, sad
c
suffering the imprisonment consequent on that attachragst.
his Honourable Friend seek to take away the power of -
techment and impriscitunent from the Court of Chancery. net
indeed would be a wonderful eureka in the improvements in the
administration of law. It, would appear from these petitions that
each of the petitioners would require a separate Court of Chancery
of his own construcion. lie. fieathcote would say, " I'll have a
Court of Chancery that will not have power to attash an individual
for disobedience of its directions. I'll have a Court of Chaney
that can't imprison a man, or indict punishment upon him." "Fa
have a Court of Chancery," says Mr. Guentnow, "that will sot
tat any great difficulty in telling tee to have other men's wooer.
And " I," says hit. Yates, " wi I have a Court of Chancier;
will recover for me my former estate, because an individual
rpeoprietor of it left a large sum of money to defend his title at
I will have a Cqurt of Chancery that will not pay angeicl;
dee to the circumstance of my not renewing my claim to it
and-twenty years, and that will allow me to practise my lan
delay." And Mr. Palmer in his turn, would sayl'll lama
Court of Chancery that will decide impost informal "
petitions, and
overlooking the right, of others, will deal in wrong es."
Ile (the Solicitor-General) would not further notice the
of Mr. fiourlay's proceedings iu the Court of Chaossigic: '
would leave his Hun. Friend to consider what description Of
the Court of Chancery would be if the construction of It
to these petitioners. The contents of these petitions did eNliffilitr
nate from his Hon. Friend ; he anxiously disclaimed being *bp*
rent of so spurious an offspring. He would no further trespassed
their attention with any observations on the pet tons, and well
advert to the composition of the Commission, which formed a prin.
cipal feature in the speech of his Hon. Friend. Of that Commis.
@ion he could say in justice, that they were indefatigible in their
labours to obtain the best information on the several subjects tam
which it hail been entrusted to them to inquire. They had had 70
sittings. and had examined forty-five witnesses, and they anxiously
sought for every intelligence from every quarter whence it could be,
obtained, without favour or distinction. It had been proposed tiel
diviie the report of the Commission into two parts--the that '
relating solely to the proceedings in the Master's office, but it was
afterwards resolved upon to form a complete report upon that put
suit the practice of the Court together. As to the members of the:
Commission, omitting himself, who was not, perhaps, a proper
judge of his own qualifications, he could not concur in the.
sentlinnits which his Hon. Friend had expressed respecting them.
His lion. Friend had imputed a want of philosophy, and liberality
to them ; but in adverting to the 3lembers of that Commission, is
saw amongst the names upon it that of the learned civilian Dr.
Lushington, who surely possessed philosophy and liberality—who
had every requisite qualification to discharge his duties in the most
effective manner; but perhaps his lion. Friend intended that the
shot which he had drod at the Commission should not perforate the
board that separated him from his Hon. Friend on the bench be-
low him ; but that it should fly over to the other aide of the 110264
and light on those who surroundmi him. (A laugh.) Ile was hazz
bear testimony also to the competent qualifications of oilier elu
of the Commission—the Hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. C
the Bon Member for Lincoln (Mr. R. Smith) and Lord I=
Another member of the Commission had been, he believed, senior
wrangler at Cambridge, and he, it might be conceded, pert=
reseed some qualifications for the office. Mr. Bell too was
member—a man WNW-, 1111.71Z5, both as a scholar and a lawyer, It
would be quite unnecessary for him to dwell upon; indeed, he
might say that every one of the Commissioners possessed such qua-
lifications for the performance of the duties entrusted to them, as
must, in the minds of all those who considered the question fairly
and impartially, free them from the imputations which the lion.
and Learned Gentleman had Attempted to cast upon them. The
Hoe. and Learned Gentleman had gone very much out of the strict
Hue of his duty, in arguing as he did upon the jurisdiction of the
Court of Chancery. That was not the question before them ; they
IMO inqdiring into the cause of the delays in the_practice of
that Court; and lie would set the Honourable and Learned Gen.
tleman right upon that point, by telling hint that for the la.
two hundred years, since the dispute between Lord Coke and
Ellesmere, there hail rot been a single attempt to question the
jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery or a single doubt expressed,
thee it had ever usurped powers it did not possess. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had, however, threatened them with some pee-
eroding% on a future day ; till 'hat day, lie (the Solicitor.Geueral)
would reserve any further observations upon the point of jurisdic. '
tiorf; but he would beg the Learned Gentleman, before he made
that attack, to call to his recollection, that even tinder the moot
brilliant times of the Roman Republic, the Senatorian Court had
always a distinct controlling power over the inferior common law
courts--a privilege to revise their t' cisions, precisely similar to
that exercised by our Court et Cuoneery. He would also point out
to hint the Coma of Session in Scotland—possessed of the very
same powers. al lien therefore, he repeated, that day of wrath
comes which the Learned Gentleman threatened. he had better call
to memory that in every celebrated State, whether ane•ent or modern,
there always had been some division between the Court of Common
Law and that Court which decided causes upon a principle of
Equity ; and as the Learned Gentl..nan had not, probably reset,.
ing himself far that day, told them what he meant to cut off or
what he proposed to reserve of the jurisdiction of that Court—as he
had left thent in a sort of terra incognita ; he (Mr. %Vetherell)
must content himself for the present by saying, that during
the whole cf his recollection. told for 200 years before, there
MOWN bed been any occasion escept the one he mentioned when
dedieristliction had been called :n question. The Hon. Geode-
sists bed referred likewise to the state of the business of bask-
misty. That business had reniticiled in the Court of Chancery
ebbe the des) s of Queen Elizabeth ; had belonged to its junsdic-
dos, lie might say, from times immemorial ; but as it was one of
tie questions upon which the Commiasiorrers were about to make a
Iliport be would not make any observations upon it at present,
:=l:saying, that when their Report came to be presented he was
would be found that the Commiselonere had done their duty
Is Me public faithfully and honourably, and that their statements
mewed glee satisfaction. When that Report was presented it would
gym easegia be the Hon. and beamed Gentleman to intsedsme
He might then say, that the Commissionens bed
dielldir dile se that they had done it ill, or that the in.,
kfiluldsinib
111,
bear intarrtless,..lighhe CM ri.lll-methigehretilt)henwouashill say,i sothmeatthsiunp

other re—__ _ .uy was. ..._ .
Cbeactiler. at the time when the ierptiry had scarcely commenced:
sad whim Honoorable Gentlemen considered the great hnportancert
of One Lamed person's services in the Commission, they mus
perceive how much time had been lost by his sheenee. The Coma
nicks ens had, however, he war bound to my, • meet nexiot
Miro nautili the duties consigned to them se It es their other
wittestinns "add allow, but heinsti the asset
!PIO mow
issillestittstions. Me Coniroistlow Wilyillsilild Power& It
toad Mt, as the Ifeseerable and Lem MemieMeres (the Mem-
ber fbr I*ll,lll his able and %aim Open* t night.
go into the eansideradort of the pram t *yam Efadence in
the Court el Oratieery. ft had not the pte ose whether
' that systentwee tor wrong. Owe mitt of its wen, to
examine ere t practice of the Court—abs Mete owevyllwg
on the gs of the Court of %%in eisiewilttieribmi to
the proceedings gibe other Cows et deol litellairperi was
to determine whether ant sod what fiertiosig Ole rehentillatila of
the Chancellor in E etty east be vsmatiniati wren satiny to say
other Cburt. It wee thertibewwltelost dint dielttport, even "bar
could
, not praises on thaw cosset*V by the
gesstie:etriirom the hery limited tertrais with *Ma la vested
it. And here he begged distinctly to stank that he net mean to
say it might not be necessary to mainsails elletstise M the con.
stitution of the Court of Chancery ; but thattlis Riposald not,
nor could not, touch upon that subject,hem So eity Mane of its
objects of inquiry. Small, however, tae IMAM *MS imiebe sown in
description, they would be found WINO* as to their results,
for they embraced the whole efffieCourt of Chancery,
from the first filing of a bill, or spetition. down to the
registering of a decree, cant ' d vais misty of infor-
,:r.
minion, and, he was bound to nay, A rent lied eftwalisdictory
evidence. The Honourable and Leersed Osetistsen Ni sill,
that it is not in the power of the Coen of Cbsseery *Os per-
rrieVi swia In
ci!esi.tiPenrist;icsdroiefttoan„ii*gett. hi ten
tote(
deo • 4l:itemilnanitsayie his ebpallentyto coati the pow*
Wof Chancery of directive* lase so a jury when
s. mindthaae a wilt of personal prepay,
_he, Dr.
, WIN WNW to say that such a measure timid be at-
-with bends to the country. One of the malty benefits
which must arise from any alteration of the Chancery moosedings
would be the leavening the expettse and difficulties of the transfer
of real property! he, (Dr. Lushington) had lately sees the mere
abstract of the title to one single estate, which, though drawn out
by one of the most honourable solicitors In London, actually filled
soo brief sheets, and he actually believed that not one line of
that quantity could have been omitted to the perfect security
of the title. in the present state of the law respecting property.
Ciountry Gentlemen should therefore interest themselves a little
more on these questions, for they would find that it was not only
the expense of law stomps, but the expense of guarding against
litigation, which made the transihr of real property amount-to so
large a sum ; there was no reason that he could see why a remedy
should not be applied to that evil ; and he thought it was worthy
the attention of the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite
(Sir. Peel), who had lately set the Legisletors of the country
so splendid an example, and entitled himself to the lasting
gratitude of the nation for alterations which a few years ago
would have been denounced a. jasobinical. (Hear.) Lord Bacon
had told them that Time was the greatest of all innovators ; and he
thought that when commerce had no altered all the relative situa-
tions of life, the system of laws which prevailed in former days
should not be continued now. He would riot pull down until they
were prepared to build up, but he thought that in these times, when
they proved a disease they should not be refused *remedy. (Hear.)
He was happy that theiesent discussion would not pass without
producing some good e , and. he would conclude by declaring
that a Commission to r uce permanent and effectual benefit to
the country, should be composed of the most eminent lawyers--of
tbeablett statesmen—of merchants of every class of society—so as
to form a combination of human talent. Such a Commission, in-
vested with proper powers, might point ought the means of pm-
curing that desideratum—cheap, easy, and effectual justice. He
' had made no allusions to the past ; he had not imputed blame to
those who at present presided in the Courts of Justice; he had
endeavoured to point out where they might find a remedy for evil,
not how to fix blame upon an indieWual. (Hear.)
Mr. 3f. A. TAYLOR said he had many years ago called the
attention of the House to the delays of the Court of Chancery,
and the proceedings of the House of Lords in appeals, and he could
say that he had at last forced the Lords to alter that course which
had been for 25 years declared to be pregnant with evil to the suitor,
as a Noble Friend of his had asserted in the other Home without
contradiction. The great objection to any alteration was, that it
would displease a certain individual. Such an objection he would
not allow fur a single moment ; he would appeal to the Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite—he could appeal to the Learned and Noble person
(Lord Eldon) himself, whether he had ever uttered an expression
of hiin but in kindness' but he must contend that when great evils
were proved to exist, the people should be permitted to complain,
and claim redress without being said to libel the individual who
initialed in the Court which ts the ,abject of their complaint.
The country, he would indeed say still farther, was very ill treated
whin they did complain, without receiving immediate relief. (Hear.)
The flon. Gentleman then observed, that after twelve years strug-
gle the state of the appellant jurisdiction in the Lords had been
altered, and Lord Gifford appointed to preside. Much good had
been done by that arrangement; the House of Lords were begin-
ning, much to their credit, to get rid of all the arrest of appeals,
and he would ask why they were not to have the same beneficial
alterations extended to the Court of Chancery itself, where theserne
abuses were acknowledged to exist, without being supposed to
libel the Chancellor, by demanding those alterations, or complaining
of his delays. lie happened, unfortunately, to be absent from the
debate which occasioned the appointment of the Commission ; but
he would have objected to any such Oonmaiesion composed of such
persons. Why, who was at the head of that commission ?—the
very Individual who the public say ou
of " Hear, bear" , which, under its present
lit to expedite the business
of that Court (Cries
I
constitution, proves so ruinous to in ividuals. His Hon. and
Learned Friend (Sir. IVilliamo hail stated several instances of the
evils of the Court, and shown clearly that the system did not work
well; he, himself, had known an amicable suit which actually
lastedithirty. three years (hear)—an amicable suit too; and it was no
unusual thing.cor a suit in equity for 3,0001. to cost 1.5001. even to
the successfiii*arty. (Hear.) At'ould the Right Hon. Gentleman
1 (Mr. Peel) opposite, who defended the system, like to be in Chan-
, cery ? (Hear, anti a laugh.) Would his Learned Friend the Solicitor-
General like a suitil in Chancery. (Laughter.) At present, it was
true, he had nothing to do but repose after the labours of the day,
but it would be otherwise if he was a suitor of the Court. It was
otherwise with some of those whom the Learned Gentleman de-
fended as a Counstl. (Hear.) When lie made his motion there were
220 cases on the paper, and of these four had since been disposed
of (so he understood the Hon. Gemleinan), and one was before the
Master, and one partly heard ; he could not therefore look upon
the Commission as any thing mere than a sop thrown out to teed
the people, and lie vdry believed they never could do any good
until the whole system was sunk to the bottom. Mr. Palmer, it
was said, hail been before the Court five years, in a mere petition
upon a Charity.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said (across the table) that
the petition had only been properly tiled two years. (Loud
cheering.)
Mr. TA YLOR continued—these two years, for that was quite
enough fur his purpose—two years upon a petition of charity,
without any approach of a decision. Ile had known two women
who were possessed of a twelve years' interest in some property ;
of that property a solicitor had possession; they brought an action of
ejectment, but lie contrived so to hang up the proceedings in Chan-
cery by a writ of error, that one of the women died at the expi-
ration of nine years' without obtaining any advantage from her in-
terest, and the other in the same situation About half a year ago.
He saw too, upon looking over the paper the other day, that se-
veral eases which he remembered when he was at the Bar, re-
mained there still. The grievances in short were numerous. His
Hon. Friend had stated them in a fair manly way; a remdy should
be granted, and if it was refused he should vote for a Parliamentary
inquiry. From the Commission, in his opinion, no good could
come ; they had already been sitting thirteen months, and if it be
us the Learned Gentleman (Dr. Lushington) had told them, that
the Members could not attend, from professional engagements, it
was their duty to come forward and state their inability, that others
might be named to supply their place. The lion. Gentleman then
concluded by observing, that the Country Gentlemen acre too luke-
warm upon the question, and related an anecdote illustrating that
observation, of a gentleman afro wished him to ',resent a petition
upon the delays of Cha.icery, but atterwarda withdrew it, from hey-
ing got Illsbusiness done in the interim. If every one was so
selfish as that gentleman, the poor would long have to complain
of the tardiness and expense of Chancery proceedings.
air. Secretary PEEL, after the able manner in which the question
had been discussed, would not have taken any part in the debate,
had he not been more than once alluded to by the Learned Gentle.
man opposite (Mr. NVilliams). That Honourable Gentleman had
intimated that be (Mr. Peel) got the Commission appointed to elude
Parliamentary inquiry on the subject of the Court of Chancery.
To that lie pleaded not guilty. His wish had always been fur the
fullest and most effectual inquiry, and lie runny saw no gond ob-
jection which could be urged against those who held the present
Cornminsion. It was true they were Lawyers, but so al..° were the
Ma-there of the inquiry into the Scotch Judicature, -WhiLli he had
last night heard called one of the ablest and most impartial that had
ever Liken place. Judges, too, to the number ot six sat in that
Commission, although the Learned Gentleman seemed to consider
them disabled to pronounce any opinions with regard to their own
.Court, and yet the Report had been praised, he repeated, by all
parties concerned. His opinion of Lawyers ass somewhat higher
than that of the LearsM Gentleman, for he thought a conscien-
tious Lawyer entitled he even more attention upon such a sub-
„Net, thaw say saber pow. He was sorry that the Commis-
iebosers holiesoombeeme report, even if it had been of one of the
, Master% ellissa, to show ehilaxaething had been done; but when
be MIMI that they hatelesttly, in spite of their other numerous
MMlSMlliene, sat seventJ tffeOns 101 szantiaed forty-five witnesses—
, =ttle assured the lik. moped no kind of examine-
at they rejected Sitailtilsomas and drat it was their intention
ise pin& "is iriliq ilisysoldsowee• thought it would be
slisiodl. shisliew ouregiell, and that he had not
in tended to stop jet imago. their appointment.

indeed,
Commission directed the Comosimionm to inquire into the practice
of the Court, with a view to see whether any part of it could be re-
moved without detriment so the public. The Honourable and
Lamed Gentleman had said, that the law relating to the transfer
of reel property was very defective, and ought to be inquired into:
But if he (slr. Peel) had included this subject in his reference so
the Commissioners, would not the Hon and Learned Gentlemen
haws said, that his object for doing so was to withdraw the amoeba
of the Commissioners from the practice of the Court of Chao/ow,
which was the principal purpose for appointing the Commission IP
But let him not be misunderstood on this subject. If the Maloof
the law relating to the transfer of landed property were no
defective as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said it was, gin;
God's sake let it be altered, whatever might be its antiquity. If
the law were such as had been representett, then he would say it
wan a disgrace to this country, and ought to be altogether altered.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had no sincerer friend than him-
self for effecting such an object. But it was not a proper subject
for the existing Commission to inquire into. He must confess the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had brought the subject forward in
a different tone now than he did last year ; and he i 3lr. Peel) woo
in consequence certainly more inclined to attend earnestly to
_what
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had to propose. He is on
say one word on a subject of importance which had been Weide,.
tally touched upon this night--he meant as to the present state of the
criminal law. He had no objection to state that it was his intention
to proceed with all the various branches of the law in the same way
that he had already done with regard to the law relating to Juries,
He was anxious to reduce the various Statutes relating to the
Cohninal Law into a sort of code, esrecielly those which at present
Mimsl the penalty of death, the number of which, however, had
been over-stated. There were about 80 or 100, and not 156, as
an Honourable Member had represented. An Honourable
,Baronet (Sir M. W. Ridley) had given notice of a motion to
brae a Commission appointed to inquire into the whole body of
the Criminal Law. He did not differ in the least with the
Honourable Baronet in the principle of the measures, but
be thought it would be better that each subject should be taken up
separately. He had reason to doubt whether the appointment of
a General Commission would be the best mode of proceeding on so
complicated a subject. If the lion. Baronet would. therefore,
postpone his motion, and let him proceed as he had done with the
Lew of Juries, he thought the object of the Hon. Baronet would
be more effectually answered. He was certainly of opinion, that
the Criminal Law ought to be taken up first ; and he should have
no objection to reduce it to what might be termed the Criminal
Code of this country. He thought this the best opportunity of
throwing out these observation's, and to assure the Honourable
Baronet that his only anxiety was, that, as the laws of the country
were considerded to require revision, the best mode of doing so
should be adopted.

Mr. HUME said, before the question was put, he was desirous
of pointing out to the House what he considered to be a very ne-
cessary subject of reform. (The Hun. Gentleman then read a long
passage from a work written by Mr. Miller on the nature of the
offices of the Court of Chancery, the whole of which cost between
200,0001. and 300.0001. a year, and a great number of which offices
were nothing more than sinecures.) The Members ought to begin
here, and do away with such a source of uncoestitutional influence
possessed by the Lord Chancellor.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY said that after what had fallen from the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel), he certair.ly should feel dis-
posed to relieve himself from the task he had undertaken, by con-
senting to the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and
withdrawing Ins motion for the present Session, reserving to him-
self the right of bringing it forward next Session should it appear
necessary.
Mr. PEEL begged not to be misunderstood. Ile did not object
to the principle of the Hon. Baronet's motion, hut only as to the
mode of carrying it most effectually into execution.
Mr. ROM:MUSE said the exertions of the Right Hon. Gent.
(Mr. Peel), in the reformation of the laws, had already entitled him
to the gratitude of the country. lie thought the task could not be
in better hands, and if he persevered in the same improving
course, he would only add to the high reputation he had already
acquired throughout the country, and throughout Europe. (Hear,
hear.) There was one question he wished to ask. He had heard
that certain informations had been filed by the Commissioners of
Charities; he should like to he informed what progress had been
made in those informations, anti also what had been done by the
Commissioners. This question hail been put by many individuals :
people said to him, what has been done in consequence of your
friend Mr. Brougham', great exertions respecting public charities ?
He honed the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel), or some
other Hon. Member, would give him some information on the
subject.
Mr. BROUGHAM said that it was in his power to answer tbs.
=of his Hon. Friend as to the operations of the Commis.
appointed to inquire into public charities up to a certale
Nage; but his information beyond that fell abort. There was a
Metter that divided light from darkness, beyond which he could
net :he meant the Court of Chancery. As to the proceedings
le that Court there was a Cimmerian mist which would not admit
his sight to penetrate; but the duties of the Commissioners he
could speak of. NVhat had been done by them was very
voluminous and very valuable. The accumulation of their labours
formed, he believed, twelve or thirteen very thick and unshapely
folios. He could not say he had read them all through ; but
he had looked at several of them. The duties of his profession
would not admit of his reading and digesting so many bulky vo-
lumes ; but from what he had seen, he ought, in justice to the Gen-
tlemen !engaged, to say, that the Commissioners appeared to have
made a very great and valuable progress in their inquiries. They
had, with extraordinary diligence and research, ascertained facts
that were previously unknown to the world ; they had made in-
quiries into a great number of Charities, and bad traced them to ,
their origin through all the labyrinths of many years' abuses. If
their progress were not so great as might be wished or expected, it
should be stated that the Commissioners had many more difficulties
and retardments to encounter and overcome, than were at first ima-
gined or anticipated. The information, however, which they had
already obtained, was of infinite value and of infinite curiosity.
Nothing had escaped their vigilance; and much which was con-
tained in the volumes forming the result of their labours was
particularly Mterestirrn: to those who delighted in antiquarian re-
search, and he could hope that the very Important facts that had
been discovered, and which would form an a'reeable portion of the
history of this country, would not be withheld from the world. An
observation had been made that night that Commissioners WON
good for some things ; he considered that the truth of this °beer-
vation was fully established by the volumes of Reports of these
Commissioners. But although he perfectly agreed in the opinion
that for the purposes of inquiry, where much communication ne.
cessarily took place with various persons in various parts of the ern-
pire, and where remote facts were sought to he ascertained, the ap.
pointment of a Board of Commissioners was highly serviceable, ,
and perhaps better adapted for the object than any other mode; yet
when the object to be attained was of an abstract nature, which
had nothing to do with making inquiries, such as the consolidas
don of the statutes, or where anything in the nature of &bride"
ment, or to speak more generally, where the duty to be per.
formed was that of working upan any given materials, either in the
digesting of the present law or forming a new one ; there he eon.
ceived the work would be much better entrusted to the hands of in-
dividuals. In any such duty be thought a board of Commissioners
would rather impede than accelerate the object, as so many opi.
Mons and feelings would be almost unavoidably productive of great
hindrance and delay. He should therefore much rather confide
'such a task to the unimpeded and uninterrupted labour of one man,
whose individual and undisturbed application was, in his judgment,
a much better way for digesting a statute, although a Comaussion
might be better calculated to extract and collect matter for legisla-
tion. Now as to the volumes on the table of the House, be con.
sidered that they eontainedinuch information, which had been hither-
tolost to the country. With regard to the result of the Commission he
was quite certain that much good might be done to the country.
It had been his province to bring in two Bills, the one relating to
education, and the other to regulate public charities. lle had seen
in the count of the first two years of the labours of the Coinmis-
, abusers, ma, facts on which to found a legislative enactment. But
what with the opposition of one portion of the House against one
of the tiro Bills, and that of another portion against the other, it
was found that he had no chance of carrying either, and he pur-
posely desisted from attempting to do so, because he thought he
' might have don: mischief. With regard to his co.:duct in ref:rence
to this subject lie begged to say a few words. He had been so
often attacked and charged with having first brought the question
of public education forwarcLand then of having abandoned it, that he
trusted the House would allow him to explain the reasons which had
influenced his conduct, and which he hoped would show how littlehe
merited those attacks. Her Majesty the late Queen having determin-
ed to appoint him to conduct her cause in the House of Lords, and it
being at that time the opinion of several that no Member of this
House could attend there in the character of Counsel on such an
occasion, lie had resolved to quit his seat in the House of Corps
twins for the purpose of devoting his whole time and thoughts le
her Majesty's interests. But having previously undertaken the task
of conducting the question of public education and public chari-
ties, and ea it was uncertain, when once a Member left the House,
whether he would return to it again, he, notwithstanding a very
impaired state of health, and an uncanuing demand of other duties
on his attention, suspended all hit other proceedings for forty-eight
hours, for the sole purpore of collecting together his ideas upon
those,two questions, and it would be in the recollection of many
that lie came down to the House, and in a speech that somewhat
wearied their attention by its unusual length, expounded thesubject as wail as his ability would admit, with great labour
to himself, and it was then that he brought in the two Bills.
He, however, experienced a very extraordinary opposition at
that time from a quarter which he had least expected t the Mem- '
beat who ranked on the aids of the Dissenters were particu- I
lardy opposed to one of those Bills. Instead of persisting in his
efferts to that opposition, lie yielded to their prejudices, hoping
that time and reflection would have their usual consequences, and
remove those obstacles which their fears had raised ; and trusting
that a full and free discussion of the subject out of doors would
have its due effect upon their minds, and that before long
they would have met him half way, and would have informed
him which of the two Bills they would esesent to take. But
lie had certaioly been in some degree dlaappeinted in Dot

haying been invited by them to proceed. He, however, had
not thought it advisable to bring in the Bets again, because
he was afraid of hurrying matters, lest he should excite
atresh those anfoundod adieesni which timee might scarcely
yet haves Wiwi, elellerds be hogged to
.aisofo -4ho Mom
he had by no mom leen to the tinkled t hie opinions
respecting the expediency of seine Nish laesnosarmitiondopold
' were still the same, thew. bora Ai 100,
lose sight of it. He had atitinmod ihh or-Pionlibill es die I:nsto,
in order to remove any offiseffiest inegeensidineffing 'NO, have
been entertained as to the inodisos of his otominst. In ad-
vert in g to the utility of the Ceedolisaielk he knew, Ind he was sure,
that his Honourable Friend Ob. 111lor for Weseetimeter, kir.
Hobliouse) would be muck plena tabor ft, that is dm way of
prevention only the labours of MON Commissioners Ind already
produced the greatest and man Wedeln( effects to RIO lowan.
The very fact of such a Otionduloo being In oniultalme hid
alarmed many who had till then boos moat gionalp soisoshig
and abusing the funds of public *Ada& Blokige balm-
!ng when the Commissioners wooM ants, in *OR geodes,
those who bad been In the cesmam add WI* of
abusing these charities, bad set their boor la. -pospaessi
themselves in the best manner they could to meet dmir judges.
3lany had commusicated to him information which ended most
materially to accelerate the inquiries of the Commies he
had received letters of the most satisfactory and pleas* ~
the perusal of which had given him very great plignme, iroot per-
sons, some signing their names and others an yew stated
that from mere ignorance they hid misa)tylied and heat
other for consience' sake, informing him that they bed an.
ticipated the visits of the Commissioners, and Wading dot volun-
tarily which they felt apprehensive they should isdinowina hors
been compelled to do; and then communicable dnd ll* neigh -
boors had not done the same (far conscience* mks, 11‘110=1).
(a laugh) and giving such information respectdair ir .
as proved of the greatest service. El& Alt WON Vl/14 of
those abuses which had not been actual, issvostigand had
been reformed, from the apprehension of thu applaiadt of
such an investigation. There yes • osiggestine which he
would beg to make, as he conceived if Intd would be of in.
finite utility. He could not expect the Cbmgissiotaers individually
to read through the whole of the report of thoilnossolgediank but
although it was not a very practicable task for any pens to read
through a huge volume of a thousand or so papa, pat it was very
easy to divide such a book, and apyteopriate ID or SO paw to oath.
He wished therefore that each of the Commissioners would take
KWIC certain portions of those volumes--for instance, a curtain
county, or part of a county, in which the Charities exisewl—und
.get that part printed and circulated in the thighboodkeil Of this.
Charities. This would soon get Insertioh in the ceiebor'pepers,
and the people would then learn what and where *ere the public
institutions, the benefits of which they were entitled to. Such
a mode would in effect be better than even the plan of regis-
tering title deeds to an estate. In the latter ease persons were
obliged to go to the register office, and there pay a shilling in order
to see the title deeds which were enrolled ; but if the course he re-
cotninended were to be acted upon, every man would be able to go
'the county paper office, and en paying sixpence or sevenpence,
Mown at once what was his title and his property. This was in his
view of the caw a very proper and necessary method to be pursued.
As his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hobbouse) would, perhaps, not be dn.
posed to read through the whole of the 13 volumes folio of the
Reports, he (Mr. Brougham) would inform him that there was (as
we understood) an Index, showing the counties in which inqui-
ries had Seen made, the name and number of the charities which
had been examined, and the nature of thole charities. He would
now answer, as well as he could, the question of his Honour.
able Friend, as to the informations that had been filed, in con-
sequence of the labours of the Commissioners. He was afraid.
by the by, that his was a very long answer (hear, hear); but it was
MK quite so long as an answer in Chancery (a laugh), for his would
shortly have an end, whereas that never ended. (A laughs .) He
was now then arrived at that awful gate into whiat he lie
should never tinter—he meant the gate of Chancery. (A laugh.)
It might be well described as the gate of darkness, and through
oed
which no light ever entered. There had been, he understood,
about 27 informations filed by the Commissioners. Many of them
had been filed several years, but none, he believed, had been
brought to a hearing. He was at a loss to know the caste of this;
the delay could not be on the other side, for he had been told that
answers had been put in by the parties to many of the bills several
years ago, and yet their cause had not been heard.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL here addressed Mr. Brougham
across the table, and said that some of the causes bed been heard.
' Mr. BROUGHAM.—He was glad to hear it : but still many of
the moat important ones had not. This, however, was but the
steal course of that Court, and they were only taking pot luck with
all the other unfortunates in that unhappy region. (A laugh.)
He should conclude his observations by stating his opinion re-
awning the result of the Commission which had been obtained by
Rio Roo. and Learned Friend (Mr. J. W iiiiitint) to inquire into the
abases eel delays of the Court of Chancery. That opinion 11116, that
the answer which his Hon. and Learned Friend would receive would
be very unsatisfactory. If he were to say otherwise, he was sure
that his Hon. and Learned Friend (the Solicitor-General), whose
powers of countenance were very great, would nevertheless be un-
able to hold it if he (Mr. B.) were seriously to say that he expected
any benefit to result from that Commission. Whet they were do.
ing he hardly knew ; it seemed that they were got into Chancery
like their clients. (Laughter.) He remembered that the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman (the Solicitor-General), when speaking of the
Catholic Bill, objected to the clause which appointed a Commis.
shim of Prelates to regulate the correspondence between Ire.
land and the Pope. " Why," said the Solicitor-Gement),
" the persons you propose to appoint are parties interested
in the very abuses you wish to control. They are Catholic
Bisho, whose interests. would netestearilyfavour any correspondence
with the Pope. To appoint therefore such a Commission, would
be just as absurd as if my Right Hon. Friend who sits near me,
(meaning the Chancellor of the Exchequer)—ft was very odd that
he should mention a Chancellor-(a laugh)—having had his con-
duct questioned, a Commission should be appointed to inquire
into the charge, consisting of the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, the Secreta of the Foreign Affairs, and the First
Lord of the Treasury. "What", asked the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman, " would be said of such a Commission ?" Why, his (Mr.
Brougham's) newer would be that it would be very absurd, and
extremely unsatisfactory, and most monstrous; but still it would
not be half so absurd, nor half so unsatisfactory, nor half so mon.
strous, as If it were proposed to put the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer (hear, hear,) at the head of the Inquiry; but who would
ever expect any such a Commission to be appointed, or if
appointed, any real good to result from it; and yet that was exactly
the nature of the Commission of his lion. and Learned Friend,
which had been appointed to inquire into the practice of the Court
of Chancery and the abuses thereof, and see whether the abuses, if
any, were the fault of the system or of the man. And who was that
man ? ‘Why, John, Lord Eldon. And who was the man ap-
pointed to superintend and conduct this inquiry ? Wby, the
same John, Lord Eldon. To say after this that he was disap-
pointed in the result of the labours of such a Commission would be
erroneous. It was not possible for him to be disappointed, for be
expected nothing, and he had got exactly what he expected, and be
could not get less. Something had been said about the Scotch
Commission, which was a very different sort of thing certainly,
because there the Commission was composed of men who
were competent judges of the subject, and who were not
interested in the decision they should come to ; and, above all,
a very able man superintended their inquiries, and that was the
Lord Chancellor. (A laugh.) He thought no one was better qua-
lified than that Noble and Learned Lord to conduct such a Com-
mission, although he did net consider him the best and }Weft
person to inquire into his own conduct. He must do that Noble
Lord justice, for he had a very high respect for him. (Loud
laughter.) His talents and his subtlety of mind were very great ; he
knew no oue who possessed • more acute and penetrating intellect.
If he (file. Brougham) were a Judge, or a subordinate officer in
any other Court, either in England, rebind, or Scotland, and his
conduct was to be investigated, he did not know any man he
would rather not have to make that investigation .than Lord
John Eldon. He was the most suitable inquisitor—the tgost acute
and penetrating intellect he knew of, and a man who spared no
one but himself (hear, hear), so rigidly unyielding was he. But
it was unreasonable to expect that he would exercise these peculiar
talents on himself, and become his own judge. There was but one
Instance of such a piece of self-condemning justice, and that was s
Catholic one. (Laughter.) It was recorded of a certain Pope, who
having taken cognizance of all his dreadful crimes, passed sentence
upon himself, and decreed his own auto dill a. His words were
" judico me crimine, et judicatus fait, et absolutus felt
sanctua." But it was not to be expected that such an cr-
umple was to be followed in the present day. Nothing else
but a desire on the part of the Chancellor to become a saint
in after-times could induce lihri to act as this holy Pope had
done. He (Mr. Brougham) was, however, afraid that the Noble
and Learned Lord had so strong an esteem fur his estate, as tenant
for life (a laugh), that it would snake him neglect his reversion in
• saintship. (Much laughter.)
The Petitions werd then ordered to be brought up and read.
Mr. J. 'WILLIAMS replied. He sail that with reliant to what
would be done by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's (Mr. Peel's)
commission, he would express what he had to say in three words,
which were—" we shall see." What had beets said about Farmer
was not the fact. He denied that he had selected eases to bring
forward to the House ; he might have adduced much stronger
ones if he had thought proper.
The question was now loudly called far.
The petitions were then ordered to be !winced.
CORPORATIONS IN IRELAND.
Mr. GRATTAN moved for lists of all persons admitted into
corporations in Ireland from the Ist January, 1812, distinguishing
whether by birth. service, or ment.—Ordered.
LUNATIC ASYLUMS (IRELAND.)
On the motion of Mr. GOULIWR N the House resolved itself
into a Committee, in which Resolutions were carried prepa-
ratory to the introduction of a Bill ro amend the Ist and 2d 01
George IV., respecting the funds for providing for ,Lunatic Asy-
lums in Ireland, so as to enable the Lord Lieutenant to grant sods
sums as from time to time should scent necessary for this parpole•
the said sums to be repaid by the several counties in which the
Asylums were situate.
The House resumed, and the Chairman reported.
C'OTTON .'il ILLS.
On the motion of Mr. Ift MUM:SE, the House resolved itself
into a Committee on the Bill for limiting the hours of labour ot
children in cotton mills.
Mr. HOBHOUSE addressed the Committee at some length, and
in the course of other observations stated, that there was no wade
which worked so many hours as the children in the cotton mills.
It was with extreme surprise and grief that he perceived any epee-
sition to whet •ppearec to his mind one of the most reasonable and
moderate prc that ever Game before that House. He had

a°
—. '
r .1.11t:i iiittEl'l6ll s.
.. . '
_...,•va1---- - - 4.P' -
• •
ails year. The matey was to be laid out in the education e ebileiikaad Relent for the day was** rid thereof, and sit down 'by decluring, The Honourable and Learned Gentleman (lift. J. Williams) bad,
gm- a difference Sf opiates arose in the famish as soda beat meesal that the four petitions presented that night were the most deceitful, with much ability. contended that the inquiry which he (Mr. Peel)
eto applying this money. The two parties in the perish not unfounded, delusive, and improperly fabricated petitions that bad had proposed, would be a waste of time ; and he had also complained
ill. on this point, applied to the Vice Chancellor. It mole e . ever been laid upon the table of that lino‘e. that the terms of his motion for an inquiry had been consider-
, fir by appeal before the Lord Chancellor, and in the paitiod Dr. LUSH INOTON, in accounting** the delay in the main- ably limited by the tams of his (Mr. Peers) minim. He bed,
ke.
ND- in that Court, no mention was made of a claim which the ellig ;alien, laid. the Waite moat bear in mind that the Commission, one however, referred to the terms of the Commission, and had found
he Chapter of Canterbury had upon the premises that pie Ai% Measurable Gentleman, the Member foe Liecnin alone excepted, them hi be as extensive as those proposed by the Honourable and
Clay come to the Charitkodesth4er them cleettinstaneesi the Cbanall.o teas sakly composed of persona holding important professional si. Learned Gentleman. They were at least quite as comprehensive.
ear, refused to earl& is thk bdberselisetisien, and peetpeasi Mielleak sad abet IL wee dwellers utterly impossible that they The object of the inquiry of the Commissioners was, es to the form
At. until the auras al she pep sod Clam[ el Canterbury. who could attend, without serious injury to the public business, in earl. of the proceedings from the commencement of a suit to its close.
rhe mil‘ht aftermei" peg is their dam foe 3 e of the site on sue Ceerta ofJnltiee. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Williams.) An. This appeared to him to be as full as the circumstance required, or,
l a which the proakas steak Aral be obtained, was the prin. I ree rem for the delay was, the unfeetenete illness of the Vice. indeed, as it could be. But was that all ?—By no means : the