The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1805-03-13 00:00:00

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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
On b- n 6 summoned in the teu,al form, by the Bleck Rod,

to attend the Lords t ontmi.sionen in the Howe of Peers, they
"emit ,tp accordingly, and the Speaker, uu their return, in.
tooth d ti.eni that the Royal Assent had been given by Com.
niwion to the Loan Duty, Pa.tage Duty, the Quoin tt tt e, and
so.ne private Rills.
Sir JOIIN ANDERSON brought In a Rill tel the better
tegul.diun of the price and baking of bread in the City of Lou-
don, and twenty miles about it, which, on account of .00ze
informal. tv , was afterward. withdraw.,.
A person fmin the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Office, in
Ire an I, presented an account of the progress made by the
Comminioners fur liquidating the national debt of that country,
which was ordered to be printed.
Colonel BAGSk-LL give notice, that he would on Thurs
day next name for leave to bring in a Bill for amending the
Liecionn Lairs in Ireland.

Lu.,l WM. aussLLL moved that the order for taking into

ro,iii.ie-ation the report of the+ Knareoburough Elettiost Coin
Mt:tre be defernd to Thunder next, veto( h was agreed
H., reason for doing so, he said, was that the Papers contain.
hag the nevem,' information were not primed till this morn-
tog, and he wished to apprise the tiollete, that to avoid the
tr.ruble and ,ereisee of bringing the wittr.-Aes and parties up
her. to snood, in the pr...eot hz should move that
the °trendier' be prosecute' bp, ths A onerey Etrneml.
lir. CIELVEY deft-riot his %lotion, on the subj.° of Mr.
.

E farce, from Thursday next to thla day re'thog ;t:
1 he Order of the Day fur the 2rl reading of the Legacy
D t. BM war, on the Motion .4- Mr. S. Bourne, deferred to
Enday next.
Mr. GREY wilted to know whether there would be any oh•
iection to have it pruned.
Mr. BOURSE repli d that the o►ieetirut tat in the dia.
erthy of executing such an order during the present situation
of the pressmen.

What gave rise to the present Motion wins simply
his—a difference of opinion that prevailed in the

..ommittee, how far they could, under the Words of
the reference made to' theft by the House, go into
the investigation of any matter of charge, farther
than what WAS alleged in the Petitions. The ques-
ion certainly respeaed matter of form; but the
!ornmittee were of opinion, that the wording of the
.tesolution of the House, by which they were au-
thorised to proceed, was so loose and general, as to
render a recurrence to it necessary, for a more spc-
•ific direaion as to tneir line of proceeding.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH expressed his ac-
iluingence in what fell from his Nuble Friend. He
regarded the present as a question of form ; at the
nine time be seemed to think the Motion, as ori-
ginally proposed, of too general and comprehensive
a nature ; or, at least, not sufficiently regulAr, or
expressive, as to the objea in view. He should,
therefore, suggest an amendments the effee of
which would be, that se much of the matters al-
leged in charge as should not be set forth in the Pe-
titions should now be offered to the consideration of
the Committee. With vesper% to the general sub-
jed, it could, in some points of view. be prefera-
ble, were it before them in the regular judicial shape
of impeachment. In the consideration of an Ad-
dreu, upon soch a suojea, they were launched into
a field of discussion without a compass and without
a guide. Ile hoed that. in the result of the present
investigation, the eeds of public and private justice
would be substantially answered sif ocent, that
the accused should remain spotless in charaasr and
in time, as he hoped that no step of their Lordships
would divest him of the robe of magistracy until,
by being found a criminal, he should be unworthy
of them. The Noble and Learned Lord concluded
by *Poring an Amendment to the effea above stated.
After a few words in explanation from the Mar-
leis of A BIRCORK and Lot d AUCKLAND, the ques-
tion was put, and the Amendment agreed to by the
House.
In the course of some routine business, which was
afterwards transaaed, the oaths of abjuration and
fidelity were administered to Messrs. Muller, Mal-
!muck. and Knaresfeld, previous to their Bills of
Naturalisation being referred to the consideration of
Committees.—Adjourneci.

,der,
subjeited to the same solemnities of oaths as in ge-
neral tains Martial. To his proposal he never
heard any other objeCtion made than the general
one, that it would be an innovation in the service ;
but the same argum an was applicable to any im•
provernent that could be offered, and would have
formerly applied with equal force against the Big
itself. As the objeia of administering oaths was ac-
ceded to by the Secretary at War, what remained for
him to submit was, that the Presidents on such courts
should not be under the age of twenty-:one years.
He proposed iton the same principle on which it was
required, that none should preside in general Courts
Marti who were not of the rank of field officers,
the objet of which was, to provide that the Presi-
dents should be persons of a competent experience.
It might, indeed, be said, that the Presidents of
regimental Courts Martial were required to be of
the rank of Captains, and that if a man was not fit
fur such a PresiJent, he could not be fit to command
a company. In answer to this, he would declare
it as his opinion, that it would be a good and salu-
tary measure, it Captains were required to be of the
age of 21 years. He thought the genius and ta-
lents of some young mei; would offer an exception
to this regulation, but, as a general rule, he thought
it might have very favourable consequences as to
the service. On the present occasion, however, he
would not submit any other alteration than the one
he proposed, especially as military regulations in
general mote properly belonged to the prerogative
of the crown. He then proposed, as ad amend-
ment to the first clause, that after the words that
" no man under the rank of Captain," should be
added the words " and had attained the age of 21
years."
Sir JAMES .TEN EY said, that though he
respeited the motives on which the present clauses
had been proposed; the arguments used in support
of them had made no impression whatever upon
him. To change, he said, what had been the con-
stant prallice in the army, from time immemorial,
and under which the army had arrived to so high a
charaCter, amongst military nations, was a matter
that required the utmost degree of the most serious
deliberation. He never heard from the proposers
of this measure, or from other persons, any pre/tic:il-
ly bad effea that had evsr resulted from this usage;
and, however slight the alteration may be re-
presented to be by its supporters, he must
resist any innovation of whatever kind, for
which no good pre/Neal reason was advanced.
It must be admitted, that ro strong reasons had
been alleged against, and he couhl himself see
many strong reasons against it. Even the most
minute circumstances, which at first sight may
seem very trivial, had a considerable effeCt in turn-
ing the minds and habits of men far a military life.
The use of arms, and the facility of forming mili-
tary evolutions, might indeed soon be learned, but
it was the habitual resped for his officers which com-
pleted the charaCter of the soldier. The effed cf
such a measure as this might be very iajurious to
the military chara.ter, by tending to separate the
men from their officers, and leading them to scru-
tinise their condud. Great bodies of men in arms
should always be trained both to love and fair their
officers, but this would tend to weaken the bond be-
tween them, and have the effcc of rendering the
soldiers, in some degree, independent of those who
commanded them. He denied that any severe pu-
nishments had been infli.ted for trifling offences, or
any complaint ever made, that they were not very
equally proportioned. Another objection he had
was the uncertainty of where those innovations
would, or whether they were meant to be equally
carried into the discipline of the navy ; but at all
events, he in at give his negative to any changes,
founded nu nothing more than mere speculative
apprehensions.
The SECRETARY at WAR replied, that if he
thought the clauses would have the most remote ten-
dency to relax the discipline of the army, or to shake
the confidence of the men in their officeis, 1w should
not have consented to propose them to the House.
The Honourable Baronet contended that regimen-
tal Courts Martial were lenity to the soldiers, as
they tried men for desertion under the nominal
charge of absence from duty, and accordingly sen-
tenced them to milder punishment ; but it should be
remembered, that to entertain charges of desertion,
mutiny, &c. at all, was foreign from the original in-
stitution for the trial of small offences. He admit
ted, that on consulting a board of the highest ge-
neral officers, they all, except two, expressed opi-
nions similar to those of the Honourable Baronet,
but their observations did not carry sufficient con-
viction to his mind; and now that the measure was
proposed, he would rather anticipate the wishes of
the soldiers, than wait wail some maiml mischief
should render the provision absolutely necessary. It
was certainly no mote than equity and justice that
oaths should be required in this, as well as in all
other cases of trial ; but as to the amendment of
the Hon. General ( Fitzpatrick), he did not see the
necessity of adopting it, as the President of every
such Court Martial must be of the rank of Captain,
I and as it was in the discretion of the commanding
officer to sae° whatever Captains he might think
most proper for the exercise of that funiftion.
Earl TEMPLE was against the oath being ad-
ministered, where the person who swore falsely was
not liable to the penalties of perjury, as must be the
case in a regimental Court Martial: •which was not
a Court of Record like a general Court Martial,
which was held in the presence of the King's Advo-
cate General.
Mr. STURGESS BOURNE wished to correct
the mistake of the Noble Lord, and to inform him,
that persons perjuring themselves before a regi-
mental Court Martial, would be made liable to all
its penalties.
Sir EYRE COOTE said, that the object of these
Clauses was by no meansnew to the service, and many
years ago, he as well as someofficersofvery great ex-
perience had reason to wish for the adoption of such
a provision. The objes of the 'louse could be no
other than that of obtaining justice ; and this was
not attainable, but by coming at the truth ; nor did
he see how that could be completely dune without
an oath. This, therefore, appeared to him, not an
innovation, but an improvement ; and, as to the
other proposal, that the Presidents should not be
under ¶2l years of age, it was attendant with such
defficelties, that he hoped his lion. Friend did not
mean to press it.. .

~+
ing from too swam an attention ; fa, if any griev-
ance had been felt, the" would have had petitions
on the table in favour of the measure.
General NOil rON expressed his regret that the
clauses had been proposed at all, but that having
been done, he thought it his duty to support them,
as far as regarded the oaths being administered,
which the soldiers would in future be led to expec',
when he refleCted on the severity of the punishments
sometimes inflieted on them by these regimental
Courts Martial. While he was on his legs, he wish-
ed to suggest, for the future consideration of the
Ministers, whether it would not be expedient that
corporal punishments should be regulated by the
articles of war. _ .

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that though he would admit there was no
pradical necessity alleged in favour of the measure,
yet it was brought forward on so just and fair a
ground, that he for one could not bring himself to
resist it. He knew that the opinions of some great
military chara&ers were hostile to it; yet he was
not so convinced by what they had stated, as to in-
duce him to oppose the clauses as far as they went ;
for they were not calculated to introduce into these
military trials any nice, technical roles of legal evi-
dence, which could never be applicable to any Court
Martial ; but merely evidence similar to what had
always been the praffice, with this only difference,
that the testimony should be given upon oath. The
sort of evidence they required was not that which
would satisfy a lawyer, but that which was sa-
tisfadory to their own minds and consciences.—
He liked the provision the better, for not being
grounded on any pradical complaint, nor on any
thing that could arraign or impugn the chara&er or
condud of the officers, and which, therefore, could
not lead the soldiers to distrust them. It would•
also serve to proud the soldiers from the numerous
trivial complaints made against them, by the inha-
bitants of places where they may be quartered, or
of others not in the army, which were frequently
sources of very great vexation. • It would he a se-
curity to the soldiers, as the accusers being liable to
the penalties of perjury, would not be ready to sub-
stantiate every such trifling complaint upon their
oaths. It would also proted the officers and mem-
bers of these courts from the bias towards too much
lenity, into which they might otherwise be led by
their good nature. He expressed his disapproba-
tion of the amendment for disqualifying persons to
sit as Presidents under twenty-one years of age, be-
cause he thought it sufficient that they were required
to be Captains, and that, by the late regulations.
none could obtain that rank, without being at least
two years in the army, during which they were
obliged to attend Courts Martial, in order to obtain
an acquaintance with their proceedings, before they
could be called upon to sit on one.
Lord DE BLAQUIER E said, he wanted no in-
novation in the system, but to have things brought
hack to their original instituticn, to confine the juris-
didion of regimental courts-martial to oifling of-
fences, instead of trying, as they do now, offences
of mutiny, desertion. Sze. under names that did not
belong to them. He wished to have limited also
the quantum of the punishment they should be
entitled to inflid, for he had seen a man sentenced
by a regimental court-martial to receive one thou-
sand strokes, for an offence, which, on board ash*,
would not have been punished with more than a
dozen lashes. At the same time, he confessed that
he did not like to hear the solemnity of au oath
should be resorted to in every trivial charge of
drunken frolic, or being late on the parade.
Sir W. W. WYNNE, in reference to one of the
observations of the Chancellor of the Enhequer,
said, that in the Militia, he knew of many Captains
in regiments, who were neither 21 years of ege. mod
had not been so much as two years in the service.
Colonel FRANKLAND spoke very warmly
against the Bill, as likely to breed great dissantions,
and promote disputes and unhappiness amongst the
men, who would be thus encouraged to threaten
court ales with indictments for perjury if they
gave evidence unfavourable to the accused. The
pradice which the clause went to abolish had pre-
',ailed for time immemorial, and without any corn-.
plaint against it, from the reign of William 111.
down to the present moment, though the Mutiny
Bill was brought every year before the eyes of Par-1
liament. This was merely a question of specula
tire good, offered to practical expinience, for whic
reason he would give it his decided negative.
Colonel STEW ART said, he could not oppose
the clauses, on account of the manner in which Re,
gimental Courts Martial proceeded, as they were
now constituted. He then read, as part of his
speech, a latter, in which these Courts Martial were
described. He stated, that it was usual for the pre-
sident to take short notes of the most material parts
of the evidence, while the other members of tlik
court were chatting, or perhaps amusing themselves
with wtiting or drawing on the slips of paper be,
tore them. In his opinion, he said, these Courts
Martial should always be composed of either five or
•
seven officers. _ .

General STUART said, he was anxious that on
account of the similarity of their names, his opinion
should not be confounded with that of the Honoura-
ble Officer who spoke before him. and whose pro-
posal, of placing six or seven officers in these Courts
Martial would be impradicable in places where
troops were detached, sometimes at the distance of
one hundred mites asunder. He was determined to
vote against tile• Clauses.

General Fl FZPA FRICK sail, that as it did not
seem to meet the general sense of the House, and
as it was argued that the Crown had a right to
make what articles or regulations it pleased, he
would let the matter rest there, and not press his
Amendment to a division : though, after the de-
scription given by the Hon. Gentleman (Colonel
Stewert) of how much depended on the Presidents
of Regimental Courts Martial, who alone seemed
to pay much attention to the evidence, he
thought it hard that they should be under the
age of twenty-one. As to the discretion remain-
ing in the Commanding Officer of choosing thca
fittest Captains, he laid little stress upon it ;
it seldom happened that the Commanding Officer
instituted Regimental Courts Martial for the trial of
trifling offences, as he had himself the power of send-
ing persons so offending to the black hole, or or-
dering them to some other suitable puni►hment. As
to the existence of auy pratkical evils Attending the
Flake, be said, that if he knew of any, as he con-

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