The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1825-06-28 00:00:00

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The House then resolved itself into a Committee.
Mr. CALCILA FT said the present was one of the most inter.l
Ming subjects which had claimed the attention of the House for a
long period. (Hear, hear.) He had no hesitation in ss.ing that
the inquiry on it was most unsatisfactory, and that sufficient time
had not been taken to give it all that consideration which the ht.
portance of the question required. So unconnected and hasty wu
the present measure that he expected it would come before the
House again next Session. He thought the House should express,
in the preamble of the Bill, some opinion, stating their sense as to
combinations generally, and reprobating as well that amongst
masters as operatives. When the proper time came he should
move that there be expressed such an opinion. Alter some
further remarks the lintrourable Member said he wished to arrest
the progress of the measure until it should receive more consi.
iteration. All knew from experience the evil of passing a hasty
measure such as that which was adopted last Session (hear, hear);
one which moss unquestionably did not answer the intended pur.
pose. He therefore thought that all the provisions of the present
Bill should be well watched. . .

On the question that the clause which made it illegal for any
person. either by " force, intimidation, or insult," to compel others
to quit their work or loin any combination, stand part of the Bill,
Mr. MANSFIELD, after a short conversation, in which seem!
Members took part, said he objected to the clause t indeed, he ob-
jected to the entire measure ; he should not enter into the reasons
for his opposition, as he &gaited of being able to make a come
aponding impression on the House. His constituents were hostile
to it, and so were all the operative classes; besides, the masters ap-
peered indifferent to it. Under these circumstances, he should give
the measure, and that clause in particular, his decided opposition.
Mr. Secretary PEEL, hoped the Honourable Member would
state openly the grounds of his opposition, that an opportunity I
might be afforded of replying to them. The Hon. Member stated
that the masters were indifferent as to the present measure; but he
ought to bear in mind, that the law was not intended for the pre-
teetion of the masters, it was solely to shield the innocent mechanic ,
who refused to join in the combination. (Hear, hear.) He was
free to admit that some difficulties might arise from the vagueness
of the law ; but then he thought it perfectly possible to compel a
man by insult to do what he otherwise might not do ; if so, it most
certainl should be provided for.
Mr.MANSFIELD said, sufficient grounds for his opposition
were contained in a letter ,which he had received on the subject t
in that letter such a clause as the one now proposed was declared to
be unjust in principle, because it punished persons for doing what I
was their bounden duty to do, natnely, to dispose of their labour
to the best advantage ; it was their only commodity, and they saw
no reason why they should not refrain from selling it, unless for a
proper price. The manufacturer and the agriculturiet each had his
price, and why not the labourer? (Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. HORDOUSE objected to the clause as being too indefinite;
if one man were charged with saying to another, " what a fool you
are for not becoming a member of our society," it must rest en-
tirely with the Magistrate what was to be the character of such an
expression. It must also depend on Lim what was to be considered
obstruction by "insult," yet it was clear that what was insult to
one might not be so to another ; indeed a great deal, in such cases,
depended on the moral feelings of the giver and the recipient. The ,
constructiou of every Act must, under the present Bill, rest solely
on some booby country justice, who, perhaps, might lock the ac- I
cused in his parlour, and there detain him until a constable were
sent for to search him ; he alluded to a possible case, that of Mr.
Kenrick. (Hear, hear.) Aler some further remarks, the Hon.
Member went on to say, that he did not wish to increase the pos-
sibility of eels of oppression by increasing the vagueness of the
law. He then proceeded to defend the Committee of the last year;
that Committee had at its head a Minister of the Crown—it was
attended by the President of the Board of Trade, and occasionally
by some of the Law Officers of the Crown ; it sat from February
to May, and examined persons of all ranks ; amongst the wit. ;
nesses were sixty masters and forty operatives. Ile thought
the evidence before the Committee of this year was any thing
but satisfactory, or such as would at all justify any harsh
measure being enacted. He knew not why it was that many of
those Hon. Members who were on the Committee of last year had
not hem thought worthy of having the honour to be appointed on
the Committee of this year. lie himself had the honour of being
one of the Committee of last year. and atra Member representing
so large and important a part of he people, he thought it would
only have been an act of propriety that either he or some other
Hon. Member connected with this great city should have been ap-
pointed on the present one. There was one circumstance &sick he
could not help observing upon. Among all the liberal minded and
intelligent men connected with the operatives of the city of West-
minster, not one single petition had been presented this Session
against the Bill of last year, while he would declare that there were
thousands and ten of thousands of signatures ready to be given in
favour of that Bill. If, therefore, there was any attempt made to
introduce an enactment which should in any degree appear to be
onerous on the operatives of the country, he hoped that those Hon.
'Gentlemen who felt for the interests of the people would let their
faces against it. He thought that from the mode in which the
proceedings of the Committee had been conducted, and the manner
l in which the evidence hid been taken, no measure could be brought
forward founded upon such evidence that should operate harshly
towards the workmen on any principle of justice whatsoever ; and
if it should be thought proper to bring such a measure forward. he
should certainly oppose it in every stage with all his power. Minis-
ters ought not to attempt such precipitancy, and he would say they
should not carry such a measure this Session; there were forms
enough in the mode of proceeding in this House that would prevent
them from doing so, and those forms he would certainly enforce.
With regard to the evidence on which this Bill was founded, he
could not but think that there was much uncertainty. It was •
very doubtful point, indeed, whether the ,proceedings which were
stated to have taken place among the workmen at Glasgow were
true or not, but even if they were so, was it to be said that all the
operatives in the coentry were to be visited with severe legislative
enactments in consequence ? The use of the word " insult" which
occurred in the clause now under consideration was most objection.
able. There was nothing definite in the expression, and although
he did not oppose the general principle of the Bill, he certainly
should object to any such word being introduced, or that freemen
should be punished for what was called " insulting behaviour."
Mr. HUSKISSON said he should not detain the Committee
for many moments. With regard to the observation of the Hon.
Member for Westminster, as to his not buying been appointed on
the present Committee on the Combination Laws, he could only
say, that he was very sorry the Hon. Gentleman was not a
member of the Committee; he should have been very glad to
have had the assistance of that Hon. Gentleman, representing, as
he did, so large a number of constituents : but when he should tell
the Hon. Member that the Resolution upon which the present
Bill was founded was no more titan this—that the present Com.
mittee should prepare a Bill founded upon the Resolutions of the
Committee of last year (to which the Hon. Gentleman belonged),
he thought the circumstance of his not being on the present
Committee was not of so much consequence ea it might otherwise
have been. The complaint which he and those lion. Gentle.
men who supported the present measure made was, that the Bill
which was brought in last year did not give effect to these Resat
lutions, and that the Bill now before the Committee was more coin.
plctely, and more truly and accurately, carrying the Resolutions
of last year into effect. The Hon. Member for Westminster
(Mr. Hobhouse) hal spoken as if some unjust and unnecessary
severity was intended to be used towards the operatives. He dia.
claimed any intention of dealing harshly towards that valuable
portion of the community. His only object in promoting this
measure was to deal with the question as a question of trade—to I
creates fair competition of labour, and to place the operatives
upon that basis of free trade which had been adopted by the I
House, in regard to all other branches of trade in this country :
and if the-Hon. Gentleman could suggest to him any clause or itn.
movement in the Bill which would have that effect, he would
insert it with pleasure. Labour was the only property of the poor
man ; and the object of the clause now under discussion was, to
protect those persons who were willing to act upon the principle of
free trade from the overbearing acts of those who sought to mono.
pollee labour, and to overbear the free-will of their fellow-men,
who wished to carry their labour to a free market. The House i
were bound to do every thing that was necessary, in the way of
enactment, to protect the weak against the strong. and to do away
with that moral power of combination which was more despotic in
its nature than any system of Government that ever existed. It
was absolutely necessary that the House should establish those re.
gulations which would restore that which was not at present ex.
!sting in this couutry—a free competition of labour and of capital. ,
This was all he required, and all that the Bill was intended to!
etleet.

Mr. 11011110 USE begged to explain. Us was perfectly satisfied
with the principle of the Bill, but his objection was to the
word " insult." It was too indefinite a term fur legislative enact.
went. - - -

Sir R. WILSON objected to the introduction of the word " in-
sult" in the clause now under discussion. He km of no ease
where that word was made to designate a crime, except in Naples,
where it was the law, that one hundred blows should be given to
any man who should insult or speak direspectfully towards an
Austrian Authority. He thought there was some precipitancy in
bringing forward the present Bill: they ought to give as much
time as they could to the master and the workmen to settle their
own affairs. The latter were like all other men whn had been
under restriction for a long tint ?--they were now wandering a little
in the liberty to which they were at length restored.
51r. CALCRAFT considered that the House were now legis-
lating between man and man, and not between master and work-
man. He granted there was some difficulty in wording the clause
so as to effect the object desired, and at the same tone to avoid
using terms too indefinite ; but as the object of all the Hon. Alen.
bees appeared to be the same, and as they wanted to try whether,
under the circumstances they could not rescue those men who were
willing to work for the very liberal wages that were offered to them
in spite of those who would impede them, he trusted the House
would not differ as to the mode of effecting this object. Ile had no
particular regard for the word " insult ;. ' any other tem expres-
sive of the same thing would equally suit him : all he wanted was
justice. If the Committee differed in terms, they agreed in essence;
they all wished to let men do with their labour what they pleased,
and to deprive any portion of them from dictating to the rest as to
the price, for they should work in the same manner as the Housel
had already done with regard to the masters.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he saw no objection to
leave out of the clause the word " insult," and to adopt the words'
molestatiton and obstruction, which bad been suggested, though
'the word Insult was sufficiently defined in what occured in a eubse-
' quest Hill ; and it was nu very unusual thing in Acts of Parliament
'to leave the words more open than the present clause would
be, for it often occurred, that after the various means of offence
had been mentioned, that the clause should terminate by these
words--." And by other means." which were certainly more in.
definite than the word " insult."

Mr. SCARLETT approved of the alteration proposed by his
Honourable and Learned Friend the Atttomey-General, and
thought the words molested or otherwise obstructed would answer
the object intended to be effected by the clause.

F,

Captain MAIIERLY considered the ford In*lt so very
vague, that he was apprehensive it would lead to great differ.
cotes between the workmen and their masters, particularly when It
was recollected that the parties were not to go before a Jury, but
were left to the jurisdiction of a Magistrate. It was the duty of the
House to use terms as little vague and uncertain as possible.
Sir M. W. RIDI.EY said many Honourable Gentlemen seemed
to consider the Bill Intended to assist the master to oppress the
workmen, instead o( its being that which it really was, a Bill to'
encourage free labour. With regard to the word "insult," he con.
sidered it was sufficiently measured and exprenive, but he should
not adhere to that or any other particular word, provided the spirit,
of the Bill should be preserved. The Honourable Baronet then'
justified the mode in which the present Committee had conducted
the examinations before them ; he contended that nothing like a'
garbled statement had taken place, but that the Committee had ex.
amined into all the cases that were brought before them fairly, and
without any favour to master or workman. He would say, that I
with regard to the case of ship Margaret, at Glasgow. the whole of
of the charge alleged against the men was fully proved before the
Committee.

Mr. 111VME said a few winds in explanation, and then entered
into a justification of the condort pursued by the Committee of last
year, and contended that the evidence which the present Committee
had taken respecting the ship Ma-garet, did not warrant the state-
ment which had been made by the Honourable Baronet (Sir IP.
Ridley.) There was not a man on board that ship belonging to
the Union Society ; nor was one single case which was stated in the
affidavits that were made, proved before the Committee. There
was a degree of suspicion attacltiag to the whole of the evidence,
and which required that the House should be very cautious in act-
I ing upon it.
Mr. Secretary PEEL observed, that it was hardly necessary
for him to trouble the Committee with any lengthened oliser-
tenons upon the clause, as they were ell pretty generally agreed
as to tare principle of the Bill. It did appear to him, there-
fore, better that they should proceed at once to the details of
the measure, rather than waste any more time in discussions,
as to the manner in which the Committee of last sear, or the
Committee of this, was conducted. He hoped, that without
accusing the one or vindicating the other, they should, in perfect
good humour, apply themselves to the business of the Committee
In agreeing upon the terms of this Bill. A. it had been proposed
to leave out the word " insult," and insert the words " molestation
aced obstruction," he certainly hoped the clause would be 'greed to.
He was well aware that every kind of molestation had been offered
to individuals on the part of many of those combinations which ex-
isted ; and he did hope, not only for the sake of the muter but for
the sake of the men themselves, this House would enact some mea-
sure that should put an end to such a species of tyrannical pro-
ceeding. With regard to the objection which had been made by
the lion. Member on the third bench ',Capt. Maberly), that the
question was left to the jurisdiction of one Magistrate, he begged
to Inform the Honourable Member, that the jurisdiction had been
expressly taken away front one Magistrate and had been given to
two, whose joint authority was necessary in all cases which should
sex under this Bill.
Mr. W. W. WHITMORE thought the clause which gave
jurisdiction to she Magistrates, would be found to give a power of
most injurious oppression in mai.y of the populous districts ; as
the Magistrates who would have to set by virtue of this clause,
would in many instances be the misters themselves. If there were
a clause introduced fur appointing paid Magistrates, and making
them only capable of acting in these cases, and who would be an.
swerable to this House for their conduct, it would take away his
objections to the Bill. lie thought, at least,"the Bill ought to give
a power of appeal by the panics aggrieved : and if it were not poe•
sible to do so now, he would ask the Right Honourable Gentle-
man (Mr. Peel) whether it would not be absolutely necessary to
propose such a clause in the early part of next Session. Hillis BiU
was to pass in its present shape, he was quite sure, that at no dis-
tant period, it would be found necessary to confide its powers to a
Magistracy who should be paid by the State. He did not Intend
to propose any Ming himself on the subject, but he begged to press
it very seriously upon the consideration of the Right Honourable
the Secretary of State for the Home Department, who, he hoped,
in the next Session, would see the propriety of the suggestion.
The motion was then put, that after the word " intimidation,"
the word " insult" should be omitted, and the following words be
inserted :—" or by molesting, or in any way obstructing one
another."

111 r. IiUM E objected to the word " molesting," which he con-
ceived to be as vague and indefinite u the word " insult," and he
should certainly divide the Committee upon the clause u to that
word. _ . . . . .

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, when a division took
place on the clause, as amended by the Attorney.
For the clause, 90—Against it, 18--Majority in favour of the
clause including the word molesting-72.
On our return to the gallery we found Mr. lit.llE on his legs.
The passing of the last clause would have the erect, in its opera-
tion, of placing the workmen at the mercy of the Magistrates.
dr. HAMILTON' and Mr. CALCZATT differed in opinion from
Mr. Hume, and disapproved of the warmth of expressions useit uy
the Hon. Member. _ . .

Sir F. BURGETT opposed the Bill, and thought that more
time ought to have been given to try what would be the effects of
last year's legislation before a change was proposed. Be objected
to the Bill on account of its being partial to the muters and op.
pressiva to the men. It besides gave a summary power to Magis-
trates in cases that ought, in his opinion, be left to the decision of
a jury. There was also a most objectionable vagueness in the
words of the bill ; it •u not possible satisfactorily to define such
a term as " intimidation or insult ;" it was not a fit term there-
fore to introduce into an Act of penal legislation.
Mr. HUME moved as an amendment that instead of " force
and insulting," should be inserted the words " to force or endea-
vour to force."
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that would make the Act'
unintelligible, as immediately afterwardslin the Act were the words
" forcing or endeavouring to force."
Mr. HUME then withdrew the amendment.

Mr. DENMAN proposed an amendment. that instead of the
words convicted in the manner befora mentioned." the words,
" convicted by the deei.ion of a jury." This summary process
ought not to be preferred to the old and invaluable institution of
Trial by Jury. Expense and delay were the only plausible pre-
texts against it ; but there ought not to be obstacles to the giving a
man the benefit of a trial under a penal statute. Besides, in cues
of extraordinary violence, the power of punishment in the Maoris.
tratca being limited to three months, was not sufficiently. extrusive
to meet such a case with due severity. Under all the ctreumatas-
ces, he thought it better to have the case decided bye jury.
The ATTORNEY.(;ENERAI, said that in aggravated cases
the power of an indictment at assizes, subsequent to the conviction
of the magistrate, was not taken away if it should be found advlu.
ble to ;steer it. Independent of the expense and delay, there were
cases that were peculiar that required the interposition of prompt
jurisdiction, and it was for that reason that it was prance d :hat the
power professed by the act should be vested in the 111agivracy.
After a few words from Mr. Scarlett, Mr. Hobliouse, and Mr.
Maxwell in support of the Amendment, the House divided.
For the Amendment, - 53
Against it, - 78
Majority against it - —23
-.4 then agreed •-

The clause waa then agreed to.
Mr. HUM E objected to the clause by which any man may be
tried in his absence.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw on this objection, but oo
division took place, and the clause passed.
Mr. HUME wished that an amendment should be intro-
duced in the clause for compelling persons to give evidence, and on
their refusal to do so, confining them. Ile was desirous that their
confinement should be limited to three months.
The amendment was objected. to by the ATTORNEY-GENE-
RAL, and the clause passed.
Mr. fIUME wished that the jurisdiction should be given In
Scotland to Sheriffs and taken tram the Magistracy. The Ma-
gistrates were too often persons in trade, opposed to the workmen.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, if persons in trade were disqualified
from becoming Magistrates, the law could not be executed in
many counties.
After a few words from Me. Husitasnar and Mr. Alderman
Tgoarn_so?4,_

Air. hi 31E insisted upon dividing the House upon an amend.
went, that no master manufacturer, or son of a master manufac-
turer, should exercise his jurisdiction as Justice under the provl.
Ilion* of this Aet.
The Committee then divided—
For the Amendment 7 151 Against it - - - 60

Majority : .-45.
The House then resumea, and the Report was ordered to be re.
eeired to-day.
MR. KENRICK.

'Mr. DENMAN moved the order of the day for going into a
Committee' upon the Petition of Martin Canfnr, against Mr. Ken-
rick. The lion. Gentleman then said, that in consequence of the
lateness of the hour he would ask leave that the Committee do ad-
journ till this day at four o'clock, at which time he intimated his
intenticn of nt,ving that witnessess be heard in the care of
Franks as rennected with Mr. Kenrick.

Mr. LYTTLETON hoped the lion. Gentleman would allow
the debate upon the Report of the Committee on private business
to take precedence at four o'clock, as it would not, he believed,
occupy any great length of time.
Mr. A BERCROSIIIY said that as it would be best they should
be in possession of the whole of the caw with all possible despatch,
he thought his lion. Friend had better order the witnesses to at-
tend now.

Mt. Secretary PEEL said, that it had been argued in the eve
of Cantor, that the petition contained the case against Mr. Ken.
i ; aid the Learned Gentleman (Mr. Denman) had met every
objection upon the subject of a written charge not being made out
by that argument. Here there was no charge known, and he
must therefore, for the isabe of common justice, beg that the Hon.
Gentleman do give notice now of what he intends to do, what wit-
' news are to he summoned, and for what purpose.
Mr. DENMAN said, that in a case of this kind, where, as he
had said before, they had no other interest than that of inquiring
into the truth, he did not think a Member bound to lay any
statement before the House which would pledge hint to any part!.
cuter course : the House was to inquire, and do what to it might
seem fir. The charge he had distinctly stated before, and would
now repeat it, was against Ale. Kenrick for prosecuting • poor
man for an alleged felony, without having any case at all to make
out against him: and after that case failed, for writing a letter
upon the same case which, he contended, was in the highest de.
gree libellous, and which letter he should be able to prove was
altogether untrue with regard to the facts.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought It a most extraordi.
nary proceeding, to commence an inquire of that kind without any
any charge upon the table. fie believed it was as unusual in Par-
liament as it would seem strange in a Court of Justice.
Mr. BARING thought the sooner the other part of the
evidence was referred to the same Committee it would be so
much the better. He hoped the Ron. (iewderaan would not