The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1825-02-22 00:00:00

THE BRITISH PRESS.. .

•
emeunt. lie was aware he might be tole, if we extended our
land forces it would he wrong in grudge six millions for the sup-
port of our navy. It wan far tram his Intention to say that we
Mould not keep up a respectable naval force; but it wan
his opinion that our present establishment wan quite dispro-
portienate to our Wants. It was singly greeter than that of
all the world beside. lie meet object to the estimates in
their preXent shape; he thought them quite too weighty in amount.
The House had been led to expect a decrease in the half-pny and
allows...cc depart:tents. it was raid,. that by taking persons off
those lists. and placing them upon actual service, as the exigencies
of the mortice required, there would be a saving of fall 7 per cent.
effected in those departments. But quite a different ardent had
been adopted, and no attempt made to replace upon service Indite.
duals in the receipt of halt'. pay. New individuals had been intro-
duced. and prnmotions continued as numerous and as frequent
since the establishment of peace. as they did during the war, with
the exception of the general promotion which took place at the ter-
urination of it. The Honourable the Secretary of the Adiniraley
had on a former occasion stated, in his place. that every fresh vs-
cancy should be filled up from the half-pay list. He wished the
Honourable Secretary to point oat how litany individuals had beta
taken from that list and placed upon active service. The fact bad
been otherwise—the country lied been put to the expense of a full-
pay establishment, and the half-pay remained undinminished. The'
half-pay for the current year, exclusive of snperannuations, pen-
sions, and allowances, amounted to 897.500 e, and was only T 2.
duzed 38,000/. from that of last year, which he contended war not a
reduction to the amount which circumstances admitted. It might
be urged, that promotion was beneficial to the service, and natu-
rally cepected by the individuals comprising it. Ile was really to
admit all that. but could not see the neceomity of making the
promotions of the pretent exceed those of former years. Ile
would, on a future opportunity, in confirmation of wnat he then
advanced, 'move for a list of all promotions, arranged specifically,
and under the several years when they had taken place. The
House should not consider the Navy Estimates as a matter of
course, and pass them accordingly. They were important, and,
like every other eapet.dit.re nithe public money, demanded strict
attention and investigation on the part of the House. He was dis-
posed to give every credit to the evident intention to substitute a
system of economy for one of wasteful exttavagance, which had
manifested itself in the Admiralty department two years ago ; but
he lamented to say, that a similar disposition had not been cots-
firmed ; since the period he alluded to, none but trifling reductions
bad been made. Looking at the aggregate amount of the Naval
Estimates, he had no hesitation io saying it was too great. Our
naval force was much larger than was requisite, or at all warranted
by the circumstances of the country. It had been said last year,
that it was particularly necessary to maintain our navy in an effective
state, on account of the disturbed and uneettledstate of South Ame-
rica : that was a cause which had now ceased to operate, and yet no
reduction appeared to be contemplated. Previous to the late war, the
naval estimates had never exceeded two millions, when the same
number of .hips and seamen had been employed as now ; and yet
at the present time the amount was live millions and a half. The
Home would find, when they came to the votes for the public
offices, that that branch of expenditure had been actually quadru-
pled in amount. He could not. wet the Hon. Gentleman who had
moved the estimates, pass s^ slightly over the item of one million
yearly expended on the building of ships. He looked upon that
charge as exorbitant, and a perfect waste itf money. We had
already 800 ships, and it was certainly unnecessary to add to that
force, which was, as lie had said before, a greater than all Europe
could produce against us., in the event of a war, by the annual ex-
penditure of a moron in befitting sew vessels, which, from the un-
fortunate se stem persisted in, were an soon to become the victims of
decay. The Hon.' Comptroller (Sir B. Martin) might, if he
pleased, smile at any mention of the dry rot ; but let him look to
the investigation and prevention of it. It was a serious subject,
and although not prepared to go the lengths of others in their ars.
prehensions, he was convinced the' great mischief had been done by
it. It weld be proved that, owing to the practice of building ships
with unseasoned timber, the dry rot prevailed in no small degree.
The conduct of the Admiralty itself went to prove the fact. The
various modes they hal year after year adopted to remedy the
evil proved at once its existence, and the insufficiency of the modes
tried to counteract it. Many naillions cf minors of oil, coal tar,
salting, had been all successively tried, and without effect.
The variety of remedies proved the difficulty of care, that die naval
department was by no means agreed in the pursuance of any one
and specific system ; and that, ice fact, they were unacquainted with
the proper mode of treating the mischief. He would ask, what
system did they at present abide by ? Was coal tar or oil used for
the purpose? Under all circumstances, he must submit that the
House was entitled to consider maturely before they voted away a
million for building new ships. It was rut unlikely that steam
navigation would effect a great alteration in the tactics of the next
nay war, whenever that war should arise, lie thought it would
effect a very considerable chatige, particularly in the narrow sear:.
From the operation of am h a cause, we might be unable to make
use of one hundred out of our 500 ships. lie should give it as
his serious advice to discontinue ship-budding for the next five
years. It would be better to permit the timber to remain growing
in the woods, and reach a proper degree of maturity previous to
its use, than to continue thus adding to a navy already larger than
the whole world beside can produce. The next item in those esti-
mates to which he should cull the attention of the House was, the
sums to be applied to the improvement of dock-yards and wharfs.
The lion. Member for Sandwich stated, three or four years ago,
that if Government had been aware of the practicability of convey.
ing chips from Chatham to Sheerness by means of steam-boats,
they would not have expended *di large sums in the construction
of docks at Sheerness. A million and a half had already been lost
in filet place, and now there was a farther demand for 795,01)(11.
Poseessing such au arsenal as Chatham, which, let it be borne in
mind, answered the purposes of the country during the war, when
there were double the number of ship in commission, time expendi.
lure of so much money in Sheerness must be looked on as an unne•
eessary and gratuitous expense. The works could be considered in
no other light than as useless, and the money expended lost. The
next item to which he thought it necessary to make an exception
was, the aum to be voted for the new victualling establishment in
Plymouth. He thought some grounds, other than a simple smite-
merit unsupported by documentary evidence, necessary to sustain
that arrangement. lie should be the last man who would raise his
voice against any measure likely to be beneficial to the country ;
but he could not consider such measures as possessing that tendency.
He wished to call the attention of the House to another charge,
that of 3,0001. for repairing docks in Halifax. Why should not
that colony execute its own repairs, defray its own necessary ex.
penile', and not met the burden of them on the people of England ?
The next thing he should mention was a sum of 12,000/. for rite
erection of a royal observatory at the Cape of Good Hope. Ile
wished to know what possible benefit was to be derived to this
country from such a measure ? The House had on former ecca.
sions voted supplies and salaries under the promise of receiving
further information, and he wished Government had, in the present
instance, informed the !louse what hopes were to be entertained that
they might be afterwafile able to judge how far these prospects had
been realised. It was not his wish to throw unnecessary objections
in the way of the Estimates ; but he thought it time for the House
to consider and investigate the ratere and application of them pre.
vious to voting away the public money in the manner proposed.
Mr. ROBERTSON deprecated the bad policy of the Gentleman
opposite, in suggesting a reduction of our naval force, at a time
when the commercial interests of the country had become so ex-
tended, and of course required an additional force to protect them
in case of a rupture with foreign powers. It was nut fair in the
lion. Member for Aberdeen 111 r. flume) to press upon the notice
of the House our great superiority in naval power over every other
nation, without recurring to the fact, that our superior commerce
made it necessary it should be so. It was also to be remarked,
that, in the event of a war, we had not only to provide against the
attacks of what he might call the royal marine of foreign Powers,
but alio against every merchant ship in their possession, which
would be invariably turned into a privateee against us. Our com-
mercial interest was not now ss it had teen a few years ago, con-
fined to the Mediterranean mill the vicinity of our Colonial pos-
sessions ; it had extended itself to the teniotest quarters of the
globe, and consequently required a greater force to protect its
interests, and repel aggressions.
Mr. HUME rose to repel the insinuation conveyed in the objec-
tions of the Hon. Member who hail just sat down. lie wished, as
much as any man, to protect our commercial interests, but he must
protest against the cipenditure of a million a.year in building
ships which were unnecessary. lie could never agree in the prin.
ciple of enlarging our naval force, while we possessed three times
as mall ships in our yards as we had in commission. The gross
number of ships was 500, of which but 130 were commissioned.
Such an expenditure of money was worse than useless, and he
would still continue to doubt the propriety of building ships to be
consumed by the dry rot, and for which there was no actual de-
mand.
Sjr G. CLERK moved that the sum of 29,0331. la fed. be
granted to defray the contingent expentes of the Navy Pay-
Office.
file. HUME objected to the increase of expenditure in the de-
partment of the Navy Pay-office from 13,0001. to 30,0001.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
It was then moved, that the sum of 56.7801. 15s. be granted for
expenses of the Navy Office.
Mr. HUME complained of the number of Commissioners in
this department as even greater than in the Admiralty.
Sir B. MARTIN stated, that the number was four lets than it
had been in time of war. business of the Transport Office
had been added to this department, and it was impossible the pub-
lic business could be conducted with fewer officers. When Lord
Spencer was at the head of the Admiralty, he saw and acknow.
ledged that the business of the Navy Office eoule not be carried on
otherwise than it was. The fact wax, and it should go forth that
it was so, the Act of Parliament empoweree the appointment of
an additional Commissioner to those now on the establishment, but
for the sake of retrenchment that idea was abandoned. At the
time when there were ten Commissioners, instead of six (the pre-
sent number), there was not one tithe of the terseness attached to the
establishment which it at present executed.
It was moved that 33,9771. 10s. be granted :or the services of the
Victualling Office.—Agreed to.

It was moved that the sum of 157,1761. 13a. Znl. be granted for
the ordinary and extraordinary expenses of hit Majesty's Dock-
yards at Deptford, 11'4,0114.10, Chatham Sheerness, Portatnouth,
Plymouth, Pembroke, Deal, Harwich, Leith, ('twee, and Cove.—
Agreed to.

Moved that 50,000/. be granted, at wars, o artificers and
labourers of every class, employed in his Majesty's yards at home,
and for the teams of homes.
Sir E. KNATCIIBULL wished to know what esplanaiion was
meant to be offered respectidg the artisans and labourers who had
been discharged from Portsmouth, who in many intuition, as he
was given to tandem/oil. had become burdensome to tidy parishes.

He understood that there had been a degree of partiality in the woes
in which these dismissals had taken place.
Sir GEORGE CLERK, in answer to the Hon. Rennet,
said, that when it became necessary tottiminish the number of
shipwrights, the Admiralty, not wising to deprive totally of the
means of subsistence those men, for whom they hal ho further
use as sit ewriktlits, determined, out of kindness, to continue them
working at interior trades; and this wen taken as a boon at the
time. flowerer, about August or Septe.nber last, they became
discontented, and murmured at this arrangement. They were
then told, that eeepin4 them on at lower wages was intended to be
a favour to them; and that, if they could get higthe wages
elsewhere, ttnete was no objection to their going. It was also
intimated to them, that ansingenents of exactly a correstiond-
ing nature had been made in the or her yards, and that the ship-
wrights in those places were perfectly satisfied with them (hear.)
At Plymouth the like plan was acted on, and there wan no
grumbling; the men, on the contrary, were thankful for the
kindness extended to them, and were glad to remain. As to the
fears expressed by the Hon. Baronet of those discharged men be-
coming chargeable on their parishes, he had to answer--that no-
thing emild at present be more easy than for those who wished to ob-
tain employment, there was now such a general demand for ship-
wrights. The conduct of these men was the more to be won.
dered at, as in general they preferred the public employment
to any other. lie agreed with the lion. Member for Aberdeen
flume), that if they discharged all the men at present
employed in Hampshire, Devon, or Cornwall, there would be
employment enough for them in pr irate yards.
Sir E. KNATCH BULL explained.
Mr. HUSKISSON believed there was now great demand for
ahipwnghts in the River, indeed such's demand as would
give employment to them all; but he regretted to say that • spirit
of insubordination had lately crept in among the men, owing
principally to the bad advice and intrigue. of Committees, into
whose hands their affairs were now committed. Owing to these
comblnaions, a greater stagnation exists in all the yards in the
River than had been knows for some time; and, indeed, the
men have proceeded to such a pitch. as to make it neeesary
for the House to intsifere aboet those taws; the removed of
which has proved prejudicial alike to master and labourer. At
present there were many parties ready to give employment, and
„the men, by their refusal, had shown their conduct in a light
which he did not wish to characterize as it deserved. In answer to
the remark of the lion. Member for Kent (Sir E. Knatehlmll) he
begged to any, that if these shipwrights were thrown on their
parish it was their own fault ; they had the means of getting
ample employments a: fair and reasonable compensation for their
labour. In conclusion, the Right Hon. Gentleman expensed his
hope that he should hear no more of that system of combina-
tion which was sn injurious to the authors of it.
Sir G. COCK BURN said a few words in explanation of the
conduct of the Admiralty.
Mr. HUME said, that, so far from thinking the Government
to blame, he thought they acted with great humanity in keeping the
men on at a low rate of wages, until the merchant had employment
for them, and though they were not satisfied to work, he looked on
it as an act of humanity towards them. He agreed with the Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade (Mr. Huskisson) that the system of
combination now existing was injurious as well to the marter as to
the men. He trusted, however, that their good sense would make
them guard against such conduct for the future; though they had
generally, hither:o. conducted themselves well, It could not be de-
, tried that seine portion of then had abused their privileges. (Hear,
hear.) They had imposed on their employers restraints, "(hear,
hear.) more degrading titan the laws which lately affected them-
, selves. Ile considered the conduct of the artisans as most tmgra-
, cious, and calculated to make the Horse return t those old laws
, which had been lately muted. This he feared they would coat-
, pct the House to do, however disagreeable it may prove to act
, against general principles. He wan fearful they would force their
mends to desert them, and join in what must become soon the
ge::eral feeling. He thought the constituents of the Honourable
Baronet (Sir E. Knstehbull) bad no cause to complain. They
could ask for relief from their parish with a bad pact: after having
refused work when of it.

After • few words from Mr. CHRISTOPHER SMITH, the
vote was al;reed to.
lb, The sum of 638.3G4i1. was .hfl voted for timber stores and

!ghee materials, fur the building and repair of his Majesty's ships,
for the ordinary repair of the ships in harbour, and for the repairs of
the docks, wharfs, and buildings, and incidental expenses.
On the motion that the aunt of 40,0001. be granted for •' pilotage,
bounty for 'lures. salvage, maintenance of distressed seamen in
foreign parts. Exchequer fees, and other contingencies,"
HUME inquired why the bounty for slaves should be
mixed up with this vow-, with which it bad ro apparent connection?
Sir G. CLERK answered, it was in accordance with an Act of
Parliament, that the bounty for slaves was included in the Nary
Estimates.

The stun of 52,0221. 13s. Sd. was voted to defray the expenses of
the Foreign Yards. •
Oa the motion that 73,5721. ed. be granted to defray the ex-
penses of the Victualling Yards,
Mr. HUME said, he was astonished to find that this estimate
was increased, although a promise was trade of a reduction.
Sir G. CLERK replied that no increase had taken place in the
number of persona employed ; the difference arose from their bele.;
employed in a different manner.
The sum of 53,5101. 13x. lld. was next moved for the support r f
the Medical Establishments.

311:111iidiBSi;11,Niliit was that in the navy and army dif-
fere.. systems had always been pursued with respect to medical
stores? The navy procured them from the Apothecaries'.hall,
while on the other hand the army got them throne agents.
Sir G. CLERK said a few grinds in reply. V. e understood him
to say, that the medical stores fur the navy were procured by the
Victualling Board.
The vote was then agreed to.
The sum of 108,0'41. 7s. id. was voted for the wages of the
officers, shipkeepers, and men, borne on the several ships while
they remain in ordinary.
On the motion Oat 40,480/. be granted for the hired packets,
Mr. HUME asked if any of the expense was not paid by the
post.offiee? it would be very unfair if it were not so.
Sir G. CLERK said, that the intention of Government was to
substitute small vessels of war in place of hired packets, as soon as
the contracts now existing should expire.
Mr. HUME begged to ask the ChaneaUor of the Exchequer,
why postage should be charged on newspapers sent to the Colonies,
any more than if they were sent to Ireland or to any part of the
country ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it was ob-
vious that the expense of transmitting papers end letters to the
Colonies must necessarily be greater than sending them to Ireland.
With regard to newspapers, he begged to say, that the postage on
them to the Colonic. was very moderate.
Mr. HUME said, that the postage on newspapers to the
Colonies amounted to about 12..000/., which was a charge of three
or four pounds a year. As to letters, he would make no remark ;
but he felt that if the postage of newspapers to the West Indies
were lessened, this good would result from it—we would be made
better acquainted with what was going on there.
After a conversation, in which Mr. T. Wi,.sow, Mr. Fat-
M•NTI.E, and Sir G. COCKBURN, took place, the VOL* was
agreed to.
On the motion that E 97,5001. be granted fur the half.pay of
the several OfScers, who may be unemployed during the present
year,
Air. HUME asked, whether those Officers who entered into
Holy Orders, and were therefore incapacitated from serving again,
still continued to receive the half-pay in the army ? lie knew this
was the case.

Sir G. COCKBIJRN said, it was found that many officers who
hail entered into Holy Orders were settled in small curacies; these
it was thought unjust to deprive of their half-pay. It was however
determined, that any Officer who, for the future, should become a
Clergyman, should thereby forfeit his half-pay. It would have
been unfair to have given the menaure a retrospective erect;
and therefore. it was that those who received it before the minute
was made still continued to receive it.
. .

Mr. HVltlk maid. he had in his hands a copy of the only
minute, he believed, that wag made on the subject; it was dated
Dec. 13. 1824. It stated, that there lead been a meeting of the
two services (army and navy) on the subject. % hen he first
brought the subject before the House he was met with a de-
claration that the thing wag quite impossible—the utter itnpossi.
bility of the case was broadly asserted. Now, he wished to
know if, before he mentioned the matter, any order bad existed ?
or whether the matter passed sat sikraio? In fact, what he
wished particulariy to be told was, if any specific order was made
on thesubj-cr.
Mr. ChiOliEß said, there had been an application, and it was
refused.
Mr. lIUME asked. was he to understand that navy officers,
taking orders, were struck off the list ?
Mr. CHOKER replied, that any navy officers taking holy orders
were struck of immediately.
The resolution was then agreed to.
Sir G. CLERK then moved that the sum of 131,6921. Ms. 2d.
be granted for the superannuations, pensions, and allowances to
officers in the military line of the naval service, their widows and
relat ifes.—.A greed to.
-- • - -

1,6001. for ivaying bounty to Chaplains.—Agreed to.
7.0001. allowance to widows and urpliar.s on the Compassionate
List.—Agreed to.
90,000!. to make good the deficiencies In the funds of the Charity
for the Relief of %% idows of Commissioned and Warrant Olficers
in the-Royal Navy—Agrced to.
260,0001. to make good the deficiancies of the funds for defray-
ing the charge of the Out-pensioners of Greenwich Hospital.—
Agreed to.
1fv9,503/. 13s. 9d. to defray the chargeof superannuation money
to Commissioners, Secretaries, and Clerks ; and of allowanca, in
lieu of half-pay; to Naval Officers, formerly employed in the naval
departments.
Mr. 11U31E objected to the item of 4161. 131. 4d. to Paw
Fraser, Esq. Commissioner, after only ten yeas' service.
Mr.CßllKEß—Fitteen years.
Sir G. CLERK said, these pensions were granted upon the Bill
brought in by the Honourable Member for Vorkshire (Mr. Stuart
IVortley.)
Mr. HGAIE asked why he should be likewise entitled to
half-par ?
Mr. CROKER—If the gallant officer had t%t gone into the
Civil Service he would still have been entitled to it.
Mr. HUMP said. that in addition to this pensim they had made'
him • Rear-Admiral.
The reeoltdion was then agreed to.
Sir G. CLERK mored the grant of 255,00 E for works of the
Dock-yards, the 1111123 wanted !nor Transport an rice, for the Vier