The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1821-03-24 00:00:00

■

oath was 1140.1444%, 11111filliallbriii lesit g4ts' let'i It is wields wise preassaptlent of oYelMs..ltipoilliere never occur. The
it at prtseut stood. That meth admitted that the d '. . htreat majority of the people' taut, •ud according
. butius of the sistlamity of. the Gevernment which owe up a . lel th‘Wileilple iif repeesirolatioat the Parliament must be
part to a foreign Power, was slot consistent with the safely .. He would say, let we pro Wide fur the Yereseriit,
and Mimed@ of tbe State. it, therefore, denied that the Milli"lihet, rolerity, is the event of daagere arising which he
Pope 'bimetal exercise say sort of jurisdietiost er sotherity is 'Sid nut anticipate, provide fur themselves. If he were
these realms; nut ively so, but the presensineuce or authority . diked ;t what paint he would st,.p, ke should say, ise,„„,,r
of the pope were deeded in many various Acts of Pesffittlieul.-. li give every subject in the mile' lb, fullest ponton of
la flee mlieles of the Prominent Church, sod beolawitteme. reedoin he moo enjoy.—(ffedr, hear. !rear.)-.-Rut he
• ,-„thebs, i! ass "'shushed, that the Pure should esatobollo Went!, ask thew Geinlemen olio advireate eltettfitili, itt
sett of authority over the subjects of these realms; aged fowl what manner the Catheters, admitting they hod the ' di•.
biers expreisions which areee used iu these several Jaws- mositioo, totuhi facilitate their drogue by disbanahisernent?
meats, certainly not of • very reepeatful kind, nor such mho He could not conceive hew the Conetilise was laid open
' would be willing to repeat, the utmost anxiety was e •
mut]
jilt gay in or bow Catholics were more furnished with
... fur confirming the exclusion of the Pope's authority. nia, I the means than they are 'at prevent. 'lsit of their physical
oiling it as be dill for a miller established beyund the pope t strength they are afraid ? Do they suppose that when they
siledity of doubt, that the (same of the coostitialion as it sow -j one emencipatert, the people would go over Is the Catholics?
stands. admitted an exiatence for the Pope's anthorite, he He .could mot fur a mument entertain such a proposition.
Meld not conceive how say part of 'bat aathority could be Theirs was out the kind or faith to which the people of the
admitted i• spiritual affairs which could tool he made. to fpeened dcy would feel disposed to addict themselves. %Ye
tenth equally to temporal sties. The civil aad the reli- ore disposeM tOtielieve too little rather than too much. The
glows duties and allegiance of• subject, wan so. blended, afrosigeat atmosseat its support of this proposition is this,
that they could scarcely give ith the notherity in one case that the•Cathobee ware had the sepremsey and were not able
Iwlthnut committing the secretly of the other. Give him a o to retain N. We have Many more advantages now than
itian's conscience. and he would find means thereby to then. We have a Protestant et„srek us du throes
Coatrol his echoes.. After the oath of sepreotecy, which, --Wear,' gor).-Bot, say exclitsioinsts, if you grant rain-
fade its terms, was the must sweeping and precise, Game cipatimi, we may have • Catholic King. He thought
the admonition of Vie onith. which had been pressed that the qualilleanues of chit nail rendered such a pre.
into the service of the present measure. The admo- humption absurd and' ridicalnes.-(ffear, hear, hear.)-
Chien contained two yropmeitions-fime that the Queen pus- Bet ,sioidu the riotous objections to the emeweipatieu of
seised sad claimed no sabre authority than had been enjoyed the Catholics, the cry of the persecutions billeted by the
by her predecessors (her father and her brother). The qurs- Catholics is the sixteeath century is raised, as if these per-
tain thee miesforest wine, whit bad been the aotherify elegised locutions were peculiar to themselves, and as if the Calving
aid peasemed by her father sad brother? No one toed I and the Creamers had nut slain their tens of thousaads.-•
doubt that al least the government of Heavy vhir. disowned (Hear, hear )-But admitting that the feet was so, it was
the right of jurisdiction or authority of amy.foreigo "neer. I bet a feeldowegitment against the admission of Catholics of
The truth was that the Reformation bad beeo.seandaliseil, . the presen•day to the aihnissio• oar their rights It monied-
as having a tendency io eslablisle tyraunieal preikwatives- in i cit hioi pf the well kuowg fable of the snot' and the lamb,
epistles! interests. The second propositiou of die eamosei. which was recorded as ein instauce of the facility of obtain-
tnin went to midair thin subject, mid claimed fur the ing argenseots to: justify the greatest cruelties. You may ,
Queen. not the right of exercising spiritual functions-that not be the the offendir yourself, Wit your fattier or grand-
would have been puerile, heather that right was assumed I father has hem, aid therefore I shall have vengeance un
iu the ceremonial of coronation, and was not given by yine---(Mme, hear.)-Another argumeut aelduced against
the eatablisloneut of this oath of supremacy-ssbut.ihe second j.the Catholics is their inimitable ambit iota This, at most, if
propuaitiou was intended to prove to her Majesty's subjects l ii did exist, could "sly be called • moderate, a negative ans•
that the had el view. like those which lead been imputed to i bition. But call nit •mbilion, awl what does it amount to ?
leer by she enemies of the fleformeliou. This was the whole It is but the ambition of four millions of people to be mi-
metic:at of the admoisition.--(Here the Right Hon. and mined to their just and Lawful Fillets, mid it they did not
Learned Gentleman read the oath of supremacy.]-No possess it he would sty 114 Catholics were cult for free-
form of words could be more entirely exclusives-no words dom.---(Oriew •f Hear, hear, hear.)--As the law
could have less ambiguity, nor could any he so entirely now stands, it was hardly possible to lay a statement of fiefs
free from limitation to disclaiming the authority of the- be:fure. the House, and not come to the conclusion that
Pope. He von to have no power of any kind. Yet, the something mast be dune, even fur the sake of consistency;
loyouctions upon this oath were pressed into. the. service and that they 'Mould purge their statute-books of these blots
of the Bill, which Bill went on to state, that," whereas that now disgrace them Flewonlii not enter into a detail
certain scruples hail arisen iii the minds AL his Ma- of them, but he would, with permission of the House, stale
jesty's Catholic subjects as 10 the . taking. of the a few of them before he sat down. On the last night that
said oath," ire. And then came in what be most rail- (prelims was debated, some gentlemen seemed to supper
a moat gratuitous assumptiost, namely, that the difficult that ohs whole mwefion amounted lu this, whether the Ca-
lmat of the oath related solely to the authority of the Pope 'holies shonld be placed on the same footing with the Dies •;
-in matters of religious belief." He desired to know where I settlers. Front what strange asisappreheaaion this (amid '
any such words were to he rinsed. The oath must Save arise, lie was at a low to know. There were two distinct I
carried with it at a disclaimer of the authority of I teats; first, the prelirreinanes, the oath against tranothstaa, 1
ilie Pope in matters of conscience and religious he. tuatara, which both the Dissenters and Protestants were
lief, because it disclaimed bin authority in all others. willing to take. The Catholics were Morally non-conform-
This was seemly a plan or device to rescue the character isis, who are willing so take an oath, that are excluded.-
of the Catholic conscience. He owned that hi expected the The oilier, the sacrameiital test, which is necessary to be '
oath of William 111. would have been appealed to. Bat the I taken on the acceptant. of office. There surely could
oath and explanation of Queen Elieetieth bore a totally dif- be no danger in repealing those laws, fee ever, if Gs-
tercet signification to the* which had been ascribed. They j italics of a mischievous character did get into office,
weal simply to declare that she claimed no other authority I the House had the power to remove them by the
than had been enjoyed by her father Henry VIII. and suspension of the Annual Indemnity Bill, from every Olive,
her brother Edward VI: Tu explain a modern measure from the Town. hall to the Borough-(Hear, hear.)-Whets
by an ancient exposition, substituting term* which the worthy Corporation of Colchester petisismed some time
were not to he found in that lustiest explanation, and ago stalest the progress of blasphemy sod sedition, to use
by adopting •n acceptation which could not be justified t their own poetical language, amnion those who wielded the
by &ley precedent in the statute hook, was at least a no- sceptre of blasphemy, would they have believed that these
relty. The Catholics had always refused to take the oath, I very sceptemwielders are admitted into Parliament to the
because it disallowed of evory kind of authority in the Pope. rechision of the Catholics-and that they who disbelieved in
Ire came next to the eneetments, that " from and after the Christiaulty are admitted to power by merely conker ttt ittg In
passing." Sw. The Bill lima deelared that the terms of the some particular creed ? The Catholics are excluded, and
admoisition should so lodger serve as the exploitation of the ; yet the persons are admitted to power whoa the Poet well
eltb-tiery were to be embodied in the oath itself. This I, describes-
could nut have beeai the intention either of the oath I o
Trne to no King, to no religion true.''
-(Heat, hear.)
or admonition. Hi was especi•lly conviticed of this,
when he read the terms, "No foreign Prince or Prelate, He would appeal to the Right Honourable Geutleman
(Me. Peel), to whom La took the liberty of alludiug
d
Sete or
or Poauthority," lee.tentate, steal have
With respect power, pre-smt
to int ehew nte,
en juactris-
particularly, on account of the distinguished part he took in
amotie therefore, he would be glad to know where the State
-
that question, who has on this occasion been moderate in
evg ept in
or he mit r
limitations of the oath, therein deireribe.l existed; and yet
an ery
t y hingthin coexc uld lie metalent, inconsiste ntwould than these lhim,awswhethee
' "%V
the Bill enacted the ime of " the said oath, with the said
admit Catholics as jurors on the life and death of Proms-
li mitations." This was by ao meas.!' Isis wily objection to
jests, and still more, to decide on matters of property he.
the oath of the Bill. The oath of supremacy was one of
twee° Catholic and Protestant, and still we exclude diem
obligatioo ; this had .no obligatory force at all. It
from power. We grant the elective franchise to Catholics,
cantrived that the obedience due to the bead of the'
we put faith In the great mass of the peuple, who are in.
Catholic Church should not interfere with the' ,undi.'
(tried with prejudices, with superstitions mid Priest,, but
aided allegiance doe to the bead uf the State. la
the men who are di he cunsidered as the arch enemies of
the very moment that it admitted the difficulty of re. •
social order are the educated, the enlightened, the talented,
concilitix the two duties. it provided the Pope with the
the respectable, in fact, the hereditary aristocracy of the
key to let biassed' out of those difficulties; fur he himself
land?"-On ibis singular, but undoubted state of the law, he
would he jailer in the _last app al of conscieure. Or • thine
Id ti this en lee on S . el man iu Hume
grounds he 'honest it impossible fur Parliament to 'pass the ' *us •us our al-- -ii- --;-- ur I"- -1Y -, that -will.
were called oil to frame • Bill, a mbudying all the incuu-
Hell in the form in which the oath then stood. The weeds
a:stymies he had named, abet • curious appearance would
of the old meth were entirely without linens; Ibis clause
went to establish limits. for which there was no such 'Mho- • it not present ? It might run something in this masther
'• Wheiem, it is 'smelly's' to exclude from Parliament all
city as that pleaded. He thought the whole frame of the
. -pinions not professing the Protestant religion, awl whereas
oath agreed better with the dark ministry of elm isebools,
and whereas
would o
lbw the wisdom and firmness of Parliameat. He felt in-
the Catholics did not consider an oath binding, therefore an
;
•iocible übjections to. the propriety of the claasee sad be oath shall be the only qualification tier. scary
it is expedient to groat some concessions to the Cathallca,
ppose the motion. •I
sod that a principle of union and conciliatime be adopted,
Mt.. HORACE TWISS observed, that thi Gentlemen who
be it hereby enacted that all well-educated mid enlightened
advocated the exclunen of the Catholies from power, seemed
fu have formed the idea that exeldrion was • prinriple ofd Catholics be deemed incapable of holdiug office."-
the Constitution-obereas, in reality, it was merely • utatter (Naar, hear, hear, and lastakieg.)-Wwild not such a
law as this be cunsidere.l a heresy evillest common sense ?
of accident. This, however, woe • notion which they mixed
And yet they are an appendage to uhat glorious Coleslaw.
sip with all their reasonings no the subject of the oaths of
tarn which the rd
its fur exclusi tttt profess tu adore. --s.
supremacy aad transubstantiation; but she truth was, *het
Hr would not detain the House by catering into thequestion
fur 150 years since the Reformation, there were no oaths
of securities. If lie thole:lit that any more securities were
in, mnatencr, and it was not till the reign of Charles - H.
amemary, he should rule fur new ones. He confend.d there
Ike die-twat inn against transubstantiation wait first enacted.
were no 'liners to be provided meanest, bet if there were,
If Ilie Lawler, of the Revolution were now living, world not
they had these securities. A man may give his bowl as well
they aaply, es their illustrious descendants iu that Houle
us his word; but it did nut follow that without the bond
did apply, that plain maxim a common sense, that us the
reason
of law had d, the law itself
should cease- his word would he invalid. lfe contend that these securi-
tes are unarcessey ; but still we grant them, not &ganet
( Veer, liner)-aad that the same realises that is name of
any dangers that may arise, hut to satisfy the apprelomoious
disturbance rendered these laws uircessery. slauld nor is
of those aceode-meg who entertain the fear of approaching
times of perfeet tranquillity swot security, make them shoo -
dangers. Where these &misers conk, be. diseuvried, he was
lately usenecteary„ Would the Statesmen of the present day
held this language is the Catholic.: "'rune it is the tines totally at a Wes lo euiseelee, 101'1131os in the valley of the sha-
dow of tort pious Prelate Dr. atilner, whose authority had
are gone by when the dangers that existed rendered these
laws areersary. No dangers now exist, but still they may j been so often glinted, to show that the Catholics were by no
Means satisfied. ll'hat, however, was not the point fora ari-
arise ; we hare all the lights of history and experience before
they were assembled,
iii, but still your children shall U4..1 have the benefit of them." dish House of Cumin.'" I° ,'
with
the '
not to cuter luta stipulatimis with the Catholics, but to make
In luokieg hack to tbe history of William, lee found a memorial
a law.-(llser, hear.)- As soon would he consent lu have
which stated, that sbisild the Catholics behave well, on some
the Housel of Coortni,nia influent...l by such a circionstauce,
future occasions they might look forward to future Mahn-
aa he would Ole ,oilit it nut tt Ith Ilit4l2.peet) by the dictates
geaces; but that jealousy was excited when too meek was do..
of his Helmer§ the Pure. He should conclude by express.
nianded. Thisdocument she's two things: first,' hat the Whim
lug a hupe, that the sentiment of the great historian of the
of Ovoids, did not mean these lawsabould be peg maimed ; aid
Legislature., with w the House was ecquanited. might fill
eecouil, that that which is made a greened of complaint
this orcasiou be verified :-" That there never yet was a good
against ths Catholic*, namely, renewing their demands siesta
Bill presented to Parliament. that. altheiugh it may wale-
:their rights are granted, is the very course which the fuun-
detested a ill nut be ultiniately successful."-(Nuca
Arts 011ie glucirma Revolatioa thenneltes wished they should iiii_m" bc '
pursue. Therrien- the proposit ids" obit* Worth node east. c'ciuir )
nut be considered ao aomnaly. If yeti ask en •what prim{- Sir JOHN NICHOL could be no means agree with the
tile the Catholios deesaild these primaries, he would ask es Iluat and Leareeed Gratiemaie that just ait dowse, that those
what principles tun withhold them n..-(He v, heae.)-They laws were eaaettd tur tempuraey or particular occasions.
bad a right to take their slime on the brood principle of the They were nut pined furs century alter she Deformation,
Constitatione• mama those who oppose the measure' tandd and at iliff.reet periwig as new dangers arrived, new ieeil-
libeW Mate legal. eneeption. The kw which prevents thesel. - entre were WWI& d won't them. After the Restoration
vaacement.of the subject is so less pros( than that which came the Test Act and various others ; when the Bill of
restrains hie frcedollt. The laws which preeetited the Cathee.. Riga's revs passed, there vitae aln aye the same pro-
le: frets bolder* -dead ere repealed, but the slightest sid- 1 Irritants provided against the occupat ttttt of offices by
'mice in the soles( prairiesl imostsses is sedoloosoly op. 1 Catihritet. IMitoeftlillitly enter the Restorationthe Cur-
Posed. He perfectly agreed with those who mid thitethe'l pontoon Act was passed, the object of attic's was
tielreannieut of Ike rewatry was eassalisity prosesamo, sod i to pressure the public peeco, and nu man was ad-
if it ware pomade that the Parliament could mew beetnew en. I milted to them Corporatioos moil he bad previsemay taken
tirely Catholk, be should be (be best to oppose it. Rot that : the oath. Thor object was to preview the dangers that might
natilliarise from •Vopith recusants: These were the acts of the
nellt flitsolniely impossible ; end sorely the miailseleso
`• • fel Calilidien late Parliament could oat beattesselieloith' reselittil ion of the military, nut the arts of Tilos Oates. It
was the cooetitiattini that hail been formed by the glorious
surythenger.ta the Mate. A few military mem wirro.odnitrted
in that Hoopeosie wood any elan aortas that seeming, teat 1 Wilbert and the great Lord homers. He did net meals lig
the Parkmoseal-ijampid ireewerwr entirety lottitnty, that tlioie' comeasd that three Acts gingham.* hr repeated by Parliament,
be••• 011 ahem voloroos deeds had shed each bur it they passed this Bill do, mould maks Mop declaration,
~. 10
1= eie.
_Ream h,i,g4 sbersgses be eselsosde.e. that they maid new; for the first time sows the Revidialmo,
, beer.),gboakeit jail,' be ids" seasissmehrs Ais
..admil Tits to PoPaelo ski ea's" eime4tami Lath Cis"'
I
arglfillsol sir ibis Wads homage he feet it was retwookag is teltoe, the Viceroy of Ithisaa, and the immediate advisers of

' .
illitrorld. 7iw irk IC ike > rfui &eke. Ours was a
coastiintlen of qualiteations; even the lowest Milt?, the
petty jursor.,requutts mote quolliticatiow. Ifs., then he im-
plored the House to pause before they ventured we ouch
important changes, lest they might afterwards find these
chums instifficiert.
M:. C. GRANT moll not avoid offering a few reanrks
oil the speech of the Right Hon Gentlamau. Of ...nurse be
could teas swelled the former periods of one history when
the penal code came 'nuke discusaiiim but tom what Ise had
read, Ise could say that the Dame steam of argument bad
hem reeurtod to, and tho saute alann had been rung as that
wh sit had been employed by the Right lion. Gentleman
that night. The old cry was, the butlii arks of our glorione
cossititaitjogg were emlaugered by Poprry and lyratiory. If
the speech of the Right How Gentleman had any weight, it
1110111 lead is to this concise.' , that all the remittances of
the restrictions that have been made were entwine, and
',mead of 'moving, ire 'lsmail impose new laws, and imi-
tate the conduct of the Irish Parliament, that reduced their
country step try step fmm owe degrailatiosi to auather.--•
(Hear, here.)—lt nu with the deepest pain he beard the
must illustrious Names that grace the pages of our history,
usi which he could never think without veneration, iden-
tified with those Jaws that cowhide the Catholics. It
stoma us how prone we are to mix up with the hest actions
einuthing from which inifavuureble coaclusions may be
draw.. The glorious Revolution, in which we all rejoice,
had for its object the subversion of tyranny, and perhaps is.
the very excess of this abject the fouudere had pushed the
principle little too far. But if the peat principle of free-
dom is fur • moment formillos, are we to chug with dorsi-
' lion to there deo:niers ?—(ffear.)--The fusuders of the
Revolution', is overthruelog iii bitrary goverunsest, intro-
',need the sword, wad having deeounced the want of faith in
the Catholics, coded is a most flagriint viulati iiii of faith
themselves—he meant the mpiiiilation of Limerick, which
would always remain as a blot in the histioy of this
country.—Cllear, Itear.)—lie would ask the Right Hun.
Gentleinso to recollect Si what period those Acts were
passed, which he identifies as a part of our Constitution.
Was it remarkable for cool deliberation ) Was it • period,
when the wisest assd best men in the State, after • mu-
tual deliberatiou, free from all party spirit, all animosities
and jealousies, laid slow". 1111491‘ restrietioild as a foudainental
part of our laws ?—(Hear. hear.)—But if, ow ihe contrary,
we find that these laws were enacted It that period of our
history, to which we looked back with the greatest sheme,
when all was coufusium. when the people, the nobles, and
the clo gy, were in a stilts of frenzy—could the Right Illaa.
Geutheman maintain for • moment that these laws should
be considered ;hemlines'' ? The church has struggled with
diffirultie. sea &moos; and we Lome that our Taylors,
and Jeweils, and Aodiews, could preserve it secure •geinst
every danger; but did it eve. enter into the beads of these
men to make the isulosion of the Catholics the palladium
and the bulnark of uhr religion'—(Neat, kear.)—The
Right Hou. Gentleman had adverted to the great Charter;
and be was astonished it slid not occur to him, that the
authors of that Charter were themselves Catholic., who
wrested the Charter from • Catholic King.—He recollected
when the Noble Lord (Nugent) presented a Petition from the
Catholics of En@liiiid, be 111,1111 iiii ed that it was slued by four
'Lathe aucientßAYlllll.,ll.llo obtained this palladium for Proles.
taut Euglsnd. When that eireamslance was mentioned, was
there • heart i- the breast of any lover of his country, that
was not ready to burst with indignation st seeing the shade
of John so fully avenged.—(Geed aters.)—To see the de-
*moderns of these illustrious men supplicating, and perhaps
in vain, fur their just rights, at the bar of that House, im-
piecing to he admitted to a participslion in those blessings
which their valorous ancestors had won fur them, bat of
which they acre unjustly deprived by an ungrateful pps-
terity.—(Leng and continued cherie.)—He next came to the
oath. He could mot agree that there was any casuistry is
the oath, no more thaw the oath of supremacy. He
sihseitted the dexterity of the Right Honourable Gentle-
man (Sir John Nichol), who first assumed there actually
existed a difference, and Olsen coulee to tell us it is • novelty
iu legislation. But he (Mr. Grant) WOOd negative to say,
with 'deference so that Light Hu. Gentleman, that no dif-
ference actually did rxiel. We kouw efiaie is • spiritual
authority felt towards the Pepe, tai authority between
the flock mud the pastor, which no civil power can control;
it is entirely voluntary. But there is souther kind of
'maturity exercised by spiritual and o:designatei means,
such as the Pope once usurped iii these realms. This
is quite different from his spiritual jurisdiction. Wheu
this oath wu first enacted it was quite different; any
man might tam it ; then two.thirds of the people were
Catholics. How would it be possible, then, to say that
the Pope had 111) authority ? But now the Catholic religion
is fully recognised by onr laws? the College of Maynooth
was established for the purpose of sowing the Catholic Re-
ligion by a Wears:ant Parliament. And how then would it
be puesible to compel persons to swear that the Pope less no
authority within these realms' The Right lion. Gentleman
(Ste J. Nichol) says, the question is. what is the authority
goaded by Henry ? He (Mr. Great) apprehended the
best nay to find out his authority would be to refer to the
Act of Elisabeth, that touted the oath of supremacy.
The let of Elizabeth reamers the Act of Henry VIII. which
was subereineuety repelled by Philip and Miry, on ninth
the dominion of the Pope rested. And when we look
at these Ana, du ue see may thing like that pure
•uthority that may be considered as it were in fore
cottecienlia ! Their noire titles Phew to what they refer.—
There were • multiplicity of Arts, sorb as the First Fruits,
Exonerations, Ice. which all come under the cognizance
of spirituel poser; but in order to slew the difference be-
tween the two kinds of spiritual power, it is only necessary '
to look at one of the enactments of Elizabeth, where she
gives the Commissioners the authority to carry into effect all
spiritual powers. There could not Ise snore convincing proof
than what is afforded by that high Conti of COMMINfiOIII.
Wish respect to the Art of Eduard VI. it was sufficient to
refer to a single papct In the Refuratalio Legume, which
Males that
" .Imq:elicit° ecrlesiaelica 4- sensteris.
(Haw, beat.)—Here, then, it was quite evident that the
jurisdiction was merely secular and ecclesiastical. Lord
emit:, the authority and oracle of else laws, stales that the
Ist of Elizabeth was a declaratory, not an enacting statute.
Sir Matthew Hale stated the oath of rupteenao as au oath
of allegiance. In illustration of this, the Hon. Member re-
ferred to a work of that Learned Judge, which /Wed that
the power of the King WM•1110. in fora coascleatia. that he-
log derived fruits a higher authority. The question really
sass, upon what principle hereafter the connexion between
Ireland mid this otiosity bus to he carried on; and in en. -
tendiog for the most liberal, he was net standing as the ad.
volute of soy particular class, but was advocating the
order, prosperity, and best interests of the whole empire.
Ireland, connected pith this country by so many ties, had
obligations on us of a peculiar stature : her populaiium
greater than that of neatly independent States whose
interests were guarded by all the forms of diplomacy, were
claitniug certain rights, which the Hoine would nut deny
merely because she was not present to claim them. Why did
Ireland, after her lusty connexiou with this country, still pre-
rebut such • specie( le of discord ? Why but that the exclusive
laws still operated. The spirit of those laws was, as to agri.
culture, restrictive--in politics, it was domination—and,
in religion, intolerance aid persecution. The restrictions of
agriculture and the domineering spirit in politics had been
given up; and to complete the work, he asked them to give
up the intuleraut spirit to religion. It was the Legislature
only that could accomplish this last step, and place the
stamp of confidence upon the connexion between the two
countries.
Mr. BROWNLOW said, he objected entirely to the prin-
ciple of the snessieve. ilium the securities now Toposed. It
was acknowledged that au unrestrecteil isilercuoirse with the
Fee of Rome lilts productive of dangers, and the remedies
which were proposed by the prelims hill to obviate them was,
in his opinion, delusive and evanesces', moil not substantial
and remount security. Should the Bill be passed by the
three Estates of the Realm, it would ma become the law of
the lull, but they were obliged to creel a (mirth power, and
call upon the Catholics to give their suction also. H.
(Mr. B) confessed he was owe of those who thought the esta-
blished rolisiun of say ementry sbnald not survive its fallow-
fro, awl ',humid be have the feet... to km a seat to that
Howse after the proposed measure slostabl be carried iuto
1
ellibet, he should think himietf busited to support that •ea.
sane, which be conceived woodd'bo Ilk test which they woad
bring forward that was to restrict the payment sit tithes by the

fi

•
Lill in Catholic tolls oiess 'priest snly. An non. Iliestiset hail
declared he would not rooppurt she measere, b..oloetivrd
Heal Roans* Catholsc Members mould labials • prepende-
niece in sisal House. Now the pispolasion of Catholics in
Ireland was„ is proportion to the Protestants, as four to one,
and be mast expect the Members returned would be in the
gar. proportion. slut 111411.11( atwitter data, he could not
imagine but they would Lase the. artin.e ',anther uf Roman
Catholit Members as of Illninsurable Members who now
supported their clot Hear, Amer, herr )—llet it
was said that she Cathulies had no property. sod it was
property *hick soot Representatives to that House;
but its the thaorea to whirls property wits Wohject, who
could soy where the qualification uould rest as last, and
it must be Considered that tiny were nail leelleiallOK for is
present are only, hot for the remotest postetity. From ail
that yet flopeared, be emild not see shit the House would he
josiified ht granting the measure, anal Ise should, therefore,
oppose it.

Mr. it' ETH Elt ELI, said, that having on • former oc-
casion opposed a Bill v 'ltch had similar objects to the
present, and the same difficulties still existing as then
dal, or rather from what to lied seen of the prevent
Bill, those difficulties mete aggravated. The proposition of
the preamlile of the Bill was, that It would restore the oaths
to the state it was in the time of Queeu Elizabeth, when
Roman Catholics could tale it. , Now he (Mr. Weiliesell)
asserted there never was a time when the oath was or could
be t iken by Roman Callsolies. The preamble of the Bill
ed that the Catholics were always ready to take the
oat h
Sir J. MACKINTOSH asked across the table, if the
Hun. Member could 'hew in the Bill the passage be ens
stating ?
Mr. WETHERELL said, he did not mean to overstate
any thing, but according to his understanding the preamble
led that the Roman Catholic was always ready to lake
the oath as explaintil by the nilm 'lion and injonetion of
Queen Elizabeth. Now, be would look to that admonition
for the terms. It seemed that on the aCceseion of Queen
Elizabeth, some idle talkers had set afloat the idea, Hid the
Queen claimed the supremacy of the Church, a different
sense front that exercised by Henry the VIII.; and, iu order
to refute it, the Queen published the document referred to
under the title of " Am Admonition to simple Men."—
This admonition set forth, that it was rumoured the
Queen claimed a right of personal Ministry in the Church,
mid order to disabuse simple men she then disavowed any
such ministry; that was all the alicratiou Queen
Elizalpth shade in the oath, which lie contended no
Rotates Catholic ever took. All which the ailmossitiuss
did was so inform the simple men that the Queen
retained the right of supremacy, which her brother King
Edward VI. and her father King Fleury VIII. had. If it
were true, that, with the explanation of Queen Elizabeth,
the Catholic could take the oath, why did they not take it
How ?—(fiectr, Mess.)—Tat affirm It, was dupery and decep-
tion. It was a fallacy to impute on the understandings of
HON. Members, but he was one of those "simple men" who
would not be so deluded. The preamble assumed, that
the Catholic was willing to take the oath, as explained
by the admonition of Queen Dizabeth, but lie re-
peated again it slated au historical untruth. The
clause nun to be enacted, fulluwing up the preamble, ought
to add only the exposition of (bitten Elizabeth; but so far '
front it, it never even used the weed " ministry," as in the
ainsoultion, but declares against the right of any power
" that in soy manner, or fur any purpose, conflicts or inter-
feres with the duty of a full sod undivided allegiance,
which, by the laws of this realm, is due to his Majesty from
all Isis subjects, or with the civil duty sod obedience which
is due to his Courts, Civil and Ecclesiastical, in all
matters concerning the legal rights of his subjects.'
Such was the alteration, and for his part he would
rather have a new oath altogether than an old oath
restored to a meaning it never before had. But it was not
to the oath alone that his objections extended; lie objected
to all the provisions., and to the measure itself in its politi-
cal end general consequences. If he could be induced to
concede it, lie certainly would nut grant it upon the false
premises stated in the preamble. Looking to the venal
provisions of the Bill, hie objection* were to the practical
effect. The effect was to introduce Catholics as Legis-
lators and executive servants of the Crown. with car.
lain exceptions, and the question was, could that be
dune without practical injury? There were undoubt-
edly in the Catholic body many Nublemen and Gen-
tlemen who, by Hoar rank, fortune, and education were well
qualified to sit as Legislators, ur to adtise the Crowu. He
would advert first to Catholic executive servants of the
Crown. The Bill admitted certain points of difference, fur
the Catholic was nut to advise the Crown as to ecclesiastical
matters. Thus while the Bill capacitated, it also incapaci-
tated ; it made capable amid disabled, and while it amhori..
ed, it unauthorised. Should a Roman Catholic, under the
Bill, arrive at the of of Premier, be could not advise
the Crown on any thieg relative to ecclesiastical affairs.
The French had • Minister of Religion, but with us there
was no such divisiun, so that the Bill erected a Catholic
Premier, and immediately pulled him dowu Brio,. He did
not argue this as any want of itigeuuity in the framer' of
the Bill ;it was a defect inherent the nature of the sub-
j• et. It was not that he doubted the diligence and attention
of that Right Hou. Gentleman, whose absence no one re-
gretted more than himself, and whose eloquence and abilities
had been so distinguished in introducing the measure to the
House ; it was ma any imputation on that Right Hon.
Gentleman, it was the necessity of the thing. The hypo-
thesis was to admit the Premier to one half his office, so
that you are to have a Civil Premier soil an Beelesiastieal
Premier. The Bill says, that the Crown shall nominate
the Commission, but if the excluded Premier is to name
the Commission, he will then do that by others which 'he
could nut du by himself. The Privy Counsellor was obliged
by his oath to advise the King generally; if the Sill
passed, therefore, it would be necessary to alter the Pricy
Counsellor's oath, as well as that of Elisabeth. lie would
boldly make this second assertion, that every word of the
Privy Counsellor's oath mast be altered, or no Roman' a.
thulic could take it. %Vitas punishment was proposed fur
any infraction of this Act ? Was it to be a fine of 61. ed.?
If so it would be bugstory, and if a greaser punishment
were inflicted, it would only he abolishing restraints with
one hand, and building them up with the other. Tracing •
little further the idea of the division of the ecclesiastical
and civil duties, in the Lord Chamberlain's Office equal
iaconvenencies would . If a Catholic were •p.
pointed Governor of a foreign colony, which his. mili-
tary merits might well entitle him to obtain, the con.
sequence would be that in* one frigate yaw must send
the Governor, sod its the otbet am Eecleelestical Commis
slater, for the Governor, the House was aware, •Iwaya was
tested with his Majesty's ecclesiastical ao well as civil au-
thority, and therefore if the Catholic was to he appointed,
it could only be by the appointment of two officers. It was
in vain In go through all the offices, but there us. no Imo
servant of the Crown but what would have daily con.
cern with that which the Bill said he should not ad-
vise the King. The House was aware that the
Polity Council was the Court of Appeal from the Co-
lonies. If any ecclesiastical matter came before theta,
it would become Mr. Buller's duty to tell the Catholic Pei*,
Counsellor that he must leave the room, and this was does
to conediate his feelings.—(Naar.)-10 short, if a Catholic
was put in office, nut ash hour would elapse in which some-
thing would not succor more grating to his feelings (hats all
the disabilities under which they at present laboured. The
complaint was, that Catholics wire mat admitted to exist.
lag Oboes; and the remedy by the Rill mast he to swam
new office, for them. It was mot possible to biaclaay Member
fifth/ Legislostre not to originates new law; and Ville Catho-
lic were armed w i 'lithe legistoti power, he meet, as an honest
and consciensious snap, injure the Establishiairet tie acres
his own church. He would not trouts], the House, bust if
they would lake the trouble In sesurekt the 1011111141 h, they
would find that nu important measure had ever brew cartied
in that House by greaser majorities thai the lowest tompa.
wisps would lead one to expect the Millwesild tread of Ce•
thelles to sit there. It was said that Lard Clarendon,
sad Lord Somers, who began the system of eiorlwaims,
treat a. far as they thought prefilw, mid 'it was foe
the Howse now to de whet they Ahawld, Ihisk 414
bit he feared that what was greeted row emsl4 hereafter be
relbeted to as • /amnia, fee gra•elsig shi Asir. No doubt
Gesitleswea Weeded heoperailly, awe Mimed eta
wdeM be Sisal, Lit Nepald they hind psi/levity ! Oh, bin
it would be said this is a Legislative apeman hat was It

- --..-...,

not rather makieg *Unpile without knowiite, whether one
of the parties would be bedsit by it ? He appealed to the
Noble Lord (Castlereagh) whether in diplomacy it ever was
knew, that a definitive Treaty was insde without to
villa:oaten being agreed Is. Bet here there was .no one
wise represented the Pope, the Cardinal, or the Catholic
Church, nothieg that will insure us that the Treaty of
Concord will not be violated before the wax was dry.
It was said by Gentlemen on the other site tatintingly,
that the objections made were narrow-minded, hot what said
men of fittest and acknowledged lovers of liberty 7—l.'clie
himself never went the length of cunt( soling that the Cl-
'holies were estitled to any thing more then toleration.
Hobbes, Sydney, and Harrington, all laid down the prin.
ciple, that noti-conformists to the Established Church were
out to be admitted to civil authority and seats in Parlia-
ment. So that looking to those great practical filidesineo,
Lord Somers and Lord Clarendon, or the other more vi.
'notary writers, there was mot one of them who did nut
admit the system of exclusion. The Hon, Member then
quoted the authority of Archdeacon Paley to the same effect.
If authorities were to be referred to, give him the melt is to
wrote in their elision the cool sod deliberate opinions mottl-
ing front their dispassionate judgment, either than those
who carte labouring to influence votes in that lloose. If
they gave him such splendid nines as Whitbread, attd
and Romilly, and Ponsouhy, and Grattan, he on the other
hood would refit. them to Lord Somers, the late Lord Rows-
lye, Lord Auckland, and Lord Bohno, persons whose 'oho-
rity was nut lees to he prized. They were called oa not to
Iwa., the minds of Geistleinen by a repetition of the
alluoiosis ID the Spanish Armada, the Pretender, and
Titus Gates' Plot ; those were things long gone by ;
but there were other sad more modern instances of
the Pope's interference is the civil concerns of other
countries. In 1768, the Pupe issited a bull of excommuniga.
tiun, in cousrqueuce of which the Par'iantent of Paris made
it bleb treason for any French subject to enottntinicate with
the See of Rome.—(Langfler, and hear, hear.)—An
recent of that nature occurring within 50 years, he presumed,
would not he thought too old a referesire. They were then
oboist to sanction a correspondence with the Sec of Rome, ha
which the Parliament of Paris had made it high treason
to engage. Perhaps it would be said, how illiberal they
were ou that side of the House, still to rector to times so
long passed; but tho Republican Government of France. iii
1791, made a laW to a similar effect. There wits nothing of
the nature of religious persecution in model'. time•. and
yet no Government is Europe had ever satieliorierl that its-
restricted correspondeoce with Rome which the Bills on tie
table went to sanction. It was said on the first iiitrudueliou
of these Bills that securities should be given, and yet the
Bills proposed to throw away eveu that security which every
other Power in Europe had retained. These Bills west
to eradicate from the Constitution a principle, the rooting
out of which would sooner or later involve the whole na-
tion in uproar and confusion. This was given him in acct.-
ment by the other side. It was now said, that, because the
electiie franchise was already given, the privfl.ge of being
elected ought slat, to be conceded ; so might they in poste-
riority—(Excessive laughter, which prevent"d us from
catching the conclusion of the Hon. Member's sentence ]
He meant, that this Bill was nut a measure whirls would go
to conclude this qiiestiun, lint only went to a certain length,
and that it might be afterwards followed up by a further
demand.

'

' • I-.

Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, if ever there was an occa-
sion on which complaint might fairly be made of the exer-
cise of the privileges of debate in this stage of a proceeding,
such complaint might with great justice be made of the
course which bad been followed this evening. They had
been about four hours in debate, and yet not more than one
or two remarks had been made which bore upon the particular
clause under consideration. Thal clause did not, as bad beets
contended, open the doors of Parliament to the Catholics. Thu
clause might be 'greed to, and yet the Catholics might remain
excluded from Parliament, and indeed from every civil office.
The rejection of the clause, indeed, would shut the door to
reconciliation, while its admission would give nothing to-
ward, the removal of the exclusion from every cis it office. Ila
noticing the course of argument which had been pursued by hie
Hon. and Learned Friend, be should out enter into the discus-
sion which he had opened on the conduct of the Pagan repub-
lies of Rome and Athens, for be conceived it unnecessary to
reply to the argument drawn from the exclusion of Christians
from office under Pagan governments, iu support of the ex-
clusion of Christians from the power in a Christian state;
neither would he examine at length the remarks which hie
Hon. and Learned Friend bad drawn from the immense
volume which had been constructed by the industry of an
Hon. Baronet, formerly a Member of that House. The
Hun. and Learned Member might have st tidied. very deeply
that volume which he believed him to be the wily person Ili
that House who would have the patience to hamar
through ; but he ceitainly was but ill.read in the works
of Mr. Burke, to whose opinions he had referred on th•
subject of toleration; in particular be could tint have
wen the last work which be wrote—a letter to Baron
Smith in Ireland on the very subject now in debates--
The reference made by the Honourable sod Learned Geo.
Orman to Mr. Hobbes, was somewbst unfortumits as ait
authority on this question. He did not mean to deny Hest
Mr. Hobbes was a great philosopher; but to far from he ing
•a authority tin • question of political Mier/city, he hied
endeavoured in his writings to perfect the spirit of drspoti-m.
Another authority to which he referred was Dr. *Nevin, a
Plutestant Director of a projected Irish Republic ; *nil this,
hi addition to the liberal Hobbes, and the enlightened Har-
rington, was an iambus ity to be opposed to all the
well-
infsrmrd politicians of modern times. This kout of 'p..-
cutative politicians was to be arrayed against the inithorn it v
of Pitt. of Fox, of Whitbread, of Windham, of Romille, cf
Ponsouby, of Grouses, and its fine of all the sound *eel en-
lightened practical statesmen who had lived in our ewe time.
The lion. Member's argument on the historical part of
preamble of the Bill, betrayed the greatest inattention arid
waist of application to the subject. The Hon. Member ...et
out with announcing his inieutieo to /hew how the Bill
militated against the principles of the Constitution., and
said he would take an extended view of the suljeet, and est
cavil upon minor points of demi}, and yet he followed
up this preface with.. examination of a variety of eniall
exceptions. The Hoe. Member then pro-ceded to crlek.in
the arguments of the last speaker opus that part of Me.
-- 4
Hill which separated from the office filled by Catholics the \
power of presentation to, or advice as to the tilling of cede-
.ol
'notice' beurfices, and of the disatisfactiene which each ex -
options must cause to the Catholics themselves, and observ-
ed, that on this point he should prier to the authority of the,
Hon. sod Learned Member, that of the Duke of Norfolk, an
other Catholic Noblemen and Gentlemen, who had axpiesse.
their satisfactiou with the prospect of their admission end
these regulet ions, lie also remarked upon the charge of :new
sideway applied to this Bill, which, he said, appeuted as
were supposed that the existing system of 'aeries this subj
was • intend and perfect whole, and as if they formed a Rai, t
code, whereas they furnished the mod complete spivs'
oof all the varieties of legal anomaly that the mow wit
est legislation could dee lee. He reminded the Hole, e.TI
*ritornelli which had been revived, of the passible ••• S.;
racy of about twenty-Ave Catholic members of lira. et 1
to establish some special Catholic totecest itt hostiles) 4.. .-
Protestants, and asked, even were sock au ceenrreece to.
lake place, what was the prohahOhty of such an attempt en,-
eeediag, or where was the danger tes the notelet/coo inter.
which would still have upwards of 1100 tilieve.bers to uphold it.
It had been well observed by the Hdn. Meimbryfbe Woottoo
Bassett. that they would hate • Catholic riallaimmanannowtodlle.
greater properties than they now had a Cutholie as
The only operation which remained for biro to uglier
whether the oath proposed, Mitred of the previa oath of
supremacy. Refuelled as meek sic .ersty to the King's autho-
rity micas be giveu ley soy oath. The Hon. Mewlsrg had
armed that it did not. ',manse it left the Catholic imp
pros. the extend ash, allegiance to which it haired &isocline te
solsweled that it was otherwise ;Joe it repeal, stem* ••tite
fell sad madiekted &Hygienes which by the law Hoe
Pliflo is requesed." The wordsµ ecclesiastical or
IS the former oath, meant goody • mienhal itallnemoe, whirs h•-
init beyond the reach of law, and wholly teepareee iviaini any
•*lwatd power or authority, could wee he pensiered o• t-
eed by any 'amnia' power. He .censclemiled with repeat log,

• -

~