The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1822-05-16 00:00:00

I 18,0001 Thole of the United State. from 9,6701..
to 7,4-261. It was singular enough that the Eng-
lish Ambassodor in the United States received
6.000/. a year, being 5001. more than the Presi.
dos, the supreme magtstrate, received from the
Americans. There might be some reason for keep..
jog op a due portion of splendour in the European
Courts, hot there could he none for such a system
in the simple Republic of America. He remarked.
after pointing out several other particulars in the
rapers, of the same kind, that the pry of Amber-
Sifters was always received in full, without its being
subjected to the losses by exchange, whirls in ni toy
mimic-es +mounted to 30 per cent. Ile pointed
out the heavy charges of the French Embassy.
He was not or opinion with those who 'bought Ihyt
from the peculiar situation of Parts, Sir C. Stuart
ought to be enabled to provide • table for English
travellers. It might he very agreeable to the host
sad guests to have anniptuons dinners provided ;
' hat it was not 10 eleesaut to the country, when
it Wit discovered that they were to be paid
• sat of taxes which it was not quite certain the
people would be able to bear for another year.—
He could not think that the country would lose any
thing i" character, or that its splendour would be.
diminished by such an economical arrangement.—
Ile should not trouble the House longer ; he was
aware that he should be met by the argument which
was generally resorted to on every motion for eco-
nomy, meetly, that admitting some of the es-
[Renee were umiecesoary, yet it was proper to
mishit/no them, in order to preserve the splendour
sod iidiarnee of the Crowu. But he had no ob-
jection that that argument would be resorted to. in
order that the House might have another opporto- '
'pity of expressing their opinion on its unconstito-
timidity. The Hon. Member concluded by pro.
lees ow—
That s Committee be appointed to take ism considers.
lion the ex posses of the Third C 1,., of the Civil List, sad
report their °pipings to the House, whether mid what sewing
trtulJ be erected is that airs, with • view to carrying it to
the Ciserolidated laud, in pursuance of SA Gru. 111. eap. 46,
sec. 5."
Lord LONDONDERRY said. that he wished to
make a few observations on the motion of the Ho-
' enterable Geieleinuri who had jest oat down, and
he could assure the House that in making those
remarks, which lie trusted would induce then to
room with him, he should be as economical of
their time as possible. The Honourable Gentle-
man had very properly adverted to that act of
splendid munificence which hod been done 'by his
Majesty at the early part of the Session, but he
did not seem tc, give to that subject the weight
which it deserved. But as the Hon. Gentleman
had confined his motion to the third claim in the
civil list, be should best economise the time of the
House by following his example. Formerly it
was the practice to comprise in the civil list
s vast number of expenses, of so indefinite •
ch4ructer that it was impossible to form it correct
milieu of the- rod timonnr, and as it was always
taken at the sofidintles, it was generally found neces-
miry to Imre/tie it; but of late years the civil list
had been regulated with respect to the exeencli.
lure, Dud the same principle had been carried into
the third class, which formed the subject of the pre-
sent discussion. That class had been distinguished
into separate heads, and none were adinined into it
neept set+ es were of ;hat fixed character, whereby
a proper estimate could be formed: it comprised the
pensions to .';orete,:i Ministers, the sums paid to Con-
sols, Nod the salaries and house rent of foreign Minis-
ters. Braid. . these, there were the extraordinaries to
fannigleMi Mater., tile outfit and presents, and he
was sure the House would see that these were not
proper strtiects fur the consideration of a Com-
mittee 131,a stain. He had no doubt that the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen would like that mode of
proceed ing very well, but he hoped that the House
wonlei consider that as long as the country pos-
sesses 1 a monarchical government. it would be
highly improper that the executive government
shot* Id he conducted by a Committee up stairs.—
(Cie err from the Opposition Benches )-• He perrect ly
ugre ed with the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lennard) that
thee !lesson (Melons dist i net ion between the tie rd class
and the other classes of the civil list, Mid it was sub-
jet t toe diminution iii time of wer, and to an increase
ai our relations with foreign States were extended.
Bt •t while lie admitted this, he must protest against
th system attempted to be introduced of &sat:Po-
lo 4 the whole et' our foreign policy to Committees
it pi stairs, and having a Secretary of Suite to attend
II tem. If as) stem were pursued, it would be
k.etter to withdraw our foreign Ambassadors altoge-
I her, for he knew of no coarse more likely to
vreale • spirit of jealousy and hostility between two
elms dries ; sod if such it proposition were cemented
fee tPris year, next year probably we should hear a
mir tams mode for the appointment of • Committee
of !Public Safety.—(Cheers from both sides of the
nse.)—He could calculate on nothing short of
thu .t wheal the Government of this codutry was con-
tra steal with that of die UMW States. But he must
poatest against the policy of forming those commie
In us, winch seemed to ilium • disposition to prepare
th eouldic mind In, the reception of similar doctrines.
(Cheers from the Opposition.)—lf the advice of
G entlemen opposite was to be attended to, they
'light as well abaudeu all the principles of their
foreign eolicy. mod then tense of dignity which ibis
outry had always upheld, and their representa-
tives oo the Continent should hereelker" mopes,. in
Arne paspesis. Whilst he 'dated thus much, he
hoped the House would nut suppose he meant to
shrink from the gettersl investigiatiuit of Iliequess.
tier), or that he was indisposed to adhere to that
spirit of economy which the times required. The
Clow. Gentleman who brought forward the question bad
waled that there was • perpetual increase of the Civil List,
hal tio cemirsiiiiou was to be observed. Bat be was pre-
paled to she, that roluctiona bad taken place ha the Civil
Litt, and more than once or twice. lie leaked at this
rpiettion with respect to the three heads into which it Was
naturally divided, and which properly came withiu the Re-
solution which had been proposed. These wore, the pensions,
the CObfiliri fees, and Use salad,* and Weise real of Foreign
Ou this subject the memory of a be How. Gentleman
ail nut term to b^ very micurate. The last war was one of a
peculiar amid protracted character, sad the blisiztais then in
flei,iire on the comment were mostly of an advanced •ge, and
could taut be Inuit& isle service us the reatotatios of the
pence. He did rot with to allude to particular mimes, but
he would take the list op.'s the table, and by it tie would ea
fir the character nf, the Govetomeirt to he tried, whether pots
lay WM of them the pressamption of sal-adininistrution ,
coats, be rallied. With respect to the Cousok, that subject
was at preacat ander the consideration of the Committee
upot, Fortiin Trade, and he should not therefore italsarftre
Will, it. Bat be must make a few ulwervatiours us elm third
hrsot hof the subject, which formed the gist the

heatable Gentlemaa's artfilrrnt. The Hon. Gentleman had
indeed admitted that • small redaction had been made is
the Foreign Missions. The salaries of Foreign Ministers
had undergone nu alteration frum she Reign oft:Neve Anne,
to the year 1804. At that lime a limited irecrease took place,
but so many additional expenses were included, that it was
Parliament the best economy to
considered afterwards by
grant oh.. public nil abroad more liberal salaries, and
to limit the extraorditearies in such • manner that leo abuse
should take place. Upon this principle, in 1815, Parliament
took up the subject, and a Committee was appointed to form
some scale of salaries. That Kale was considerably larger then
than now. The salaries of the Foreign Mitosters amounted at
that time to 152,0001.—at p t it was only 135,0001. An
Rent certainly Ink place iu the Interim, which rendered the
redaction has sensible to them than it otherwise would have
been—he meant the removal of the property tax. By the
Isle arrangement 10 per cent. was now reduced from the
eateries of Foreign Ministers, which would, with the other
reduction, make a saving on the retinae,' of 1815 of shunt
30,0001. Now it was a little too much to say there had been
sin reduction, when from that steteiectit it would appear
(bat can the whole there had been a reduction of 20 per cent.
—, Hear, hear.)—Then there were usher branches which were
lefi out of the Civil Lief, but were subject to the &banal con-
trol of Parliament. In ISIS the extraordinaries amounted
to 50,000!., and they. were now reduced so 27,0001.; con.
sequently there was a saving of 23,0001. on the eatraor.
dietaries. The fees amounted to 7,8001.; the post office
charges to 7,000?. It cost for couriers 2,000!. and there
were the occasional comic'', between mission and min.
min. But he +es sore the Howfle were satisfied with the es.
planation he had given, and that they would require • better
case to be made out by the Hcaeourable Gentleman oppo-
site berme they gave their sanction to the ?lutetium of a con-
tract between the Crown and that House, and compel the
to...vents of the Crowe to disclose the is of foreign States
to a Committee up steles. If that coney, were to be pour-
' seed, some ether Secretary of Slate worst be bitted, for be
*ever could resent to be is the leading stings of that Coin-
miller. It was a little late in the day for the Flotiouralele
Gentlrorien to call upon the Howse to violate the comeact
with the Crown, when the most economical arringeenente had
been effected, that could whir', an. reasonable mar.—(Hear.)
He now came to the number of mission,, and be was pre-
pared to shew that they were not inure mementos now than
in die emus seirebilis 1792. In that year we had
Ambassadors at Fiance, Spain, C tantineple, and Hut-
laud. In 1922 we had an Ambassador at France, bet not at
Spate, and this would shear dist it was not n. pessary to ad-
dress the Crown ore these subjects, for the Government of the
country would modify or change according as a necessity
arose. We had also Ambassadors at Holland, Russia, and
Constantinople. In Ibis course they had followed the wisdom
of oar ancestors, not likely to be otreerted by any thing he
law growing tip on the other side of the House. In 1792 we
had Ministers Plenipotentiary at Prussia, Portugal, the Two
Sicilies, America, Sweden, Bavaria, Sardenia, Wirtemberg
(the only addition to the number), and Saxony. Now from
*hie the House would see that, with one exception, no in-
crease had taken place since 1792. He now came to the
state of Italy. The Rae. Gentleman had asked, why there
should be a Minister at all at Tuscany' He answered, there
bad always been • Minister from this country at Tuscany,
and more than that, there was not a Power in Europe that
meld be named that had nut a Minister there. Did the
Hoe. Gentleman suppose that there should be no Minister at
say Court where there was not • great deal of business to do?
The situation of Tueeaey in relation to Italy and Germany,
was quite sufficieat to justify the policy of those Powers
who kept Ministers there, in order to know what was going
forward in that part of the world of which they formed a
pert. The Honourable Gentleman had also laid great stress
on the Embassy to Switserland, but he (Lord Londonderry)
looked forward to the discussion to morrow evening with•
out any alarm. He should like to know where the Honours.
ble Gentleman had got his information as to the little ins.
portiere of Switzerland. But the fact was completely the
✓everse. There has been no period in which there was
not a Minister from this country at the Swiss Centime,
and all on the scale of Plenipotentiaries. Indeed, in look-
ing over a list he found there had been a person of the
Dime of Vaeghen employed there with a salary of
7601. a year. For what crime in diplomacy be had been
consigned to that sitestioe he could nut cooceme. Bet it
was the general policy to keep a Minister at the Swiss
Cantons. It was the key and bond which kept together the
whole system which had been solemnly retitled by the
great Powers at the Congress of Vioists. The House
would perhaps allow him to stale, that there was no
less. pelmet appointed there than Coon* Cape d'lstria, from
Russia. Spain, with all her plans of erouomy, had so Am-
bassador there ; yet it was whispered shout here that the
Embassy to the Swiss Cantana from this country had been
revived for the aceomplishiog of aortae party objects; but
this statement was founded either in miscoureption or false.
hood, for there was not one word of truth in the m cher.—
(Hear, hear.)—With respect to dee emelumeuts of she Em.
bossy, it bad been said that that also had been segmented;
bet she salary now enjoyed by Mr. Wyse was tea per rent.
lees than that received by Mr. Stratford Cseni•g.—(Hear.)—
He would admit that if the missions could be cemeducted
more economically, the Ministers would fall In their ditty if
they did not advise the Crowe to that effect, notwithstanding
the settlement of the civil list. But he would ask, was there
any one tmb] say that a person could live in this country
far less than don's* what they could in 1792; and he put it
so any mass its the House who had lived en the Continent,
whether the increase of expense in foreign capitals was slot
greater proportionally than here, in consequence of the great
index of English, who introduced habits of profuse expen.
dilate. The Hon. Gentleman seemed to think there was no
necessity for the Ambassador extendiog his hospitality to his
fellow countrymen; he perhaps would think differently if
he were abroad ; but the expense of these missions did nut
rest on those grounds only, but ein others, which he flat-
tered himself even the Honourable Gentleman would ad.
mil. At the time the errangemest of the salaries was
made, they were made larger, as it was intended to charge
the Ambassadors with all the expenses when they should be
absent on their private affairs, which was nut the case fur.
merely. Now, when an Amba.sedur was absent, he allowed
out of his emoluments W. a day to the Secretary of the Em
bony, amounting generally to one belt the appointments.
With respect to the duly be would say that Otis country bad
more to du with the Continent now than at any former pe-
riod of her biaiory, and at no femur period of our history
had we possessed more of the confidence of the Powers of Eu-
rope than at the present moment; and he begged hire
nut to be understood es confining him.. If to the great
Powers, but al.ce to those minor ones which the Honour.
able Gentleman would treat so cavalierly. The
free communication which now look plate between the
Powers of Europe and this Country, was • ;11•••161Ct for the
continuance of peace; but se * cousequeuer, there was a
ems of business and correspontleme in she Foreign Of.
Ice, and in the office* of the principal Ministers, which
rendered it impassible to be conducted brit at great expense.
le the offices of the fire principal Miuisters there were at
least four persons employed in ilte correspondence •lone.
He (Lord Londonderry) might be partial to these persons,
bet he bel,eved there never before was stiell a male of diplo.
matie knowledge and experience as this country now poll.
tressed. Esclusiee of the four gentlemen, there were out
less than twenty yourig gentlemen now serving in the ethers
of the Analiessadors, without fee or reeard, in the same man-
. nor as t her-leeks in she Foreign Office were employed. To. y
were thus ienprueing themselves in knowledge, and the only
advantage they boll wan living at the Ambesseerlor's table.—
(Hear, hear.)—These were seirsiees that the country could
, not gel for lest, than four or five huodred a year to each of
the individuals. The Ministers, therefore, could not
be charged with meting in tl:e spirit of patronage, when
they availed themselves of so large a portion of
gratuitous service for the Wilke benefit. He had authority
fur mashie thct this diplomatic service, which war supposed
lo be so largely 464014E11, was in fact a losing service; it
wits • suet of hunutirahle banishment from their cuuutry, and
en abet Per woof eesllllol7 ought to be liberally considered.
Ha had (be •ill horde of the late and present Ambassador to
. il. Petersburglettar pre seat Austrian Antbaasador, and the late
v, Ambassador to the Pirelierlando, as sit sir elpeli•Vl of those
• missions. The pretest Andiasmador to Si. Peteralionli said
that lie could only conform to • reduced expenditure by
I "Mg lit • ddiercist nrianli,r from his predecessors, and.
11,silseisie-real alone anioOUlrd to brim) hundred a year.
Thu way the testimony yin person above all 'written, of

'rise oiler oat ra:sed to the situation he now filled from his
peculiar film as for it, on secoont of his being acceptable to
the Emperor of Russia. Lord Calheart ha I expended of his
, private fortune 'l',o'.ol. a year, turd 'hooch the Netherlands
was hot she most expensive of she mission* fur an Arnhem-
dor, Lord Clanearty had spent in the first year 111,0001., and
in the subservient years 13,0001. He had Wan the authority of
Mr. Henry Wellesley for stating that fur the last five years of
hi. resirleiree in Spain he spent of his private fortune 7,0001.
The Hon. Member 'opposed that as the President of
America had a salary equal only to the Arrilieseador, the
hotter must have a very good thing of It. But America was
an eeperialve mission, and Mr. Brew haul told him (Lord
larridonderry) that it was with difficulty be made the sp.
pointments meet the impetigo.. At Naples the Minister was
not able to lodge himself for less than 11501. rt year Yet
Gentlemen came doom to that House, ond, with republican
iteicione talked of cutting flown the spoeintmenis of the
Foreign Ministers, who could not do justice to the
colicky if they were obliged so slink into corners of
the city in which they were, and think of anthing hut
saving a little musky. Wiok respect to the mottos before
the House, he would only say, that if the Ministers should I
have lord the confidence of Parliament so far that they could
not be intrusted with the direction of this fund, but • Corn-
/alike must take into their hands the details of it, it was
unnecessary fur him to say that he should feel degraded to
the dust were he to contioue in his pretest situation; but he
trusted the House would pursue a different course, and re-
pose confidence in the Ministers ow the roneloct of foreign
affairs, for without confident, foreign affairs could not be
conducted. He conjure., the Gentlemen opposite, for the
,• sake of the Coirstitui ion (as no doubt they could find strung
1 them a Secretary of Slate to whom they could intrust the
fund in quest ion), not to rl.sfieure the Constitution by vesting
it ins Committee. On these grounds he should give the me.
firm his must derided negative.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, that if the discussion had
taken that course which he had expected, Rost the able and
clear statement of his lion. Friend, hr *tumid nut have rises;
but when they were charged with a design of making their
country grovel in the dust, and lose that influence on the
Continent which slue maintained only by her Ministers, he-
cause they proposed an inquiry into the expense of one
branch of the public service, he could not refrain horn offer-
ing a few observation.. What ! the House of Commons, in-
stead of Metairie; into the public expenditure, was lo watch
the ntehene 4f Maunder., and come to no vote which would
so much displease than as to Unlace them to resign. They
had introduced Into the debate that ultimo talk of the
M Metter', the threat to resign, which bad become the subject
of ridicule throughout the country. This threat had been
whispered sometimes iu other placer, and about the doors
of the House, hut now it was °peal, proclaimed as the in-
tention of the Ministers. What then was the House
of Commasa come to, that House of Commons which
had performed greater things formerly than arly other
assembly of men ever did? They bad changed the religion
of the country—deposed an ancient and illustrious
Royal Family—seat dynasties into exile, and forced
powerful Ministers to resign; but now, night after
night, they were told by the Milliliters, " We defy you ; due
nut vote against our opluton or we shall throw up our places :"
so distinct sod unequivocal a declaration would
been made if the Noble Lord had not been convicked
that the greeter part of dose who usually voted with him
now differed completely from him.—(Hear, hear, hear.)_
He would remind the House that the inevitable inference in
the country would be (if they sow supported the Ministers),
that the present House of Commons preferred the favour of
fluke Ministers to giving a cosscieatioos vote. Was this
then the impression with which he would seed the country
Gentleman down to his constituents, and the language of
the Minister, too, such as is former times would have hurled
a Monarch from the throne. He, the Minister for Foreign
Affairs—the pacificator of Europe—the associate of So-
vereigns, disdained to go is the leading-strings of a
Committee of that House! The incoesieteury of the
Noble Lord was conspicuous also, for whilst he con-
sidered it so abominable that a Committee should be ap-
pointed, he founded the whole of his armaments upon the
Report of the Committee of 1816. The Noble Lord had
gone en to laud the glories of the quintuple Alliance, which
be (Sir James Mackintosh) supposed meant that which
existed slow. He charged the Members of that side the
House with being opposers of the Huly Alliance, forgetting
that he hinurelf, in 1621, published the most reproachful
paper strains' she whole of the principles of that Alliance.
Bat what cupid be said of the Noble Lord's declaratioe
of our great influence in Europe? It was clear that
we had none, for we protested against the principles
of the Holy Alliance as founded on injustice and rapine.
When before was it ever known that a whole kingdom like
Italy was converted into an Austrian province, not only
without the intervention, butt with the evident disapprobation
of Great Britain and France, the two greatest Powers by
sea and lead of the civilised world. 'Thus the Noble Lord
proved tour great influence, and be (Sir J. Mackintosh) would
venture to say that if delicacy did not prevent bias torching
on receut t loins, he could make oat a still stronger
case of our entire want of influence in Eurupe. Was it out,
be world ask, a subversion of all pretence to neutrality,
whin Switzerland was requited by the Mini of the
Holy Alliance so deliver up fugitives who had taken refuge
la her territories! This barbarous right was assumed with
regard to men the victims of pol;tieal differesee of opinion,
whose defeat was their only crime. It was notorious that
the Minister of that most Unholy Alliance had done so snail
the Cantons, as retarded fugitives from Piedmont, a
country under a Soveteige whom Mr. Burke styled the
Tetrarch of Sardinia, as regarded she Austrian province of
Naples, now under the nominal rule of a King who once
swore to a constitution, but afterwards preferred being a
Viceroy under Austria to being Sovereign of a free people.
From all these States there were fugitive*, foe no offences
but being so suet iuus as to endeavour to obtain some little
liberty, some little p irtion of that knowledge now so widely
diffused. These unfortunate gentlemen escaped; probably
this Government of Switzerland remitted so much of former
good feeling as to be ashamed of the part they were obliged
to set, and connived st their escape. The Honourable Mem-
ber detailed a similar unquiet of recent date in the Canton
of G ,iu which the Government had given the fugitives
notice to escape. If Eugland was not a patty to these trans-
scions, glen the Noble Lord's declaration was a rash one,
sod we really hare no influence, as the Alliance was doing
these acts which we most shborrtd. When their table was
eavered with Petitions from the people, complaining of int-
pearling rein and distress, this was the time which the Noble
Lord had those to taunt Gentlemen on that aide the House
with stole il sternness to the Ambassattuis. Indeed the whole
question of theAmbessadors was introduced adeaptandrus,for
it was not denied that Foreign Ambassadors were neccs.
eery, and that the dignity of those missions were part
of their usefulness; hut those questions were sot then under
coasiderat us. He could not but observe the arietueratieal
contempt with which the Noble Lord had looked down on
the extremes of Republica. Such sounds might lie pleasing
so the ems of Sovereigns, bet it was rather singular lite-
grace to bold towards a House of Commons, which, with
respect to the expenses of Ministers, ought to look with Re-
publican spirii.—(Hesr.)—He was not afraid to oppose his
conic it utieual doctrine to that of the Nottl• Lord. If his doe.
trine were not trite, then the House of Commons ought so
have confidence iu the Minister—confidence, hoist, was
always the hordes of the Noble Lours song. n that great
Republic, which was likely to spread liberty and happiness
over a grouter portion of the deicers earth than Monarch ever
cursed, the Noble lentil looked down with commit., sot
that it was exercised to language, but the tunes sad ges•
tures of the Noble Lord were sometime.' more intelligibk
than his words. The Noble Lord said he would not
desire to see a bidding for offices, but with submission
to the Noble Lord's knowledge of political ecouomy, the
giving great salaries might out be the most proper way to
prevent it, mad usifortumiely it was well known that ap-
poinimenta abroad were repaid, gratefully rind I, by services
at house --(Hear, bee .)
Mr. F. ROBINSON said, lie could readily Iseli': what
the lion. and L,arned Gentleman had said at she com-
mencement of his speech, that lie hail to intentio:, of ex-
pressing hi. centimetria, for he (Mr. Robinson) iinfesscJ
that he could sot find say statement or argument that ap-
plied to the motion before the House. If any thing applied, it
wet one simile pout to which he was opposed by she a...
Geutlem,u who brought forward the motion. If he had not

mistaken the non. and I.eargeil neolleman, lie approved of
an ACibeiradoe to St. P,tersburgh i yet of that the Hum
Member for Ipswich :coinplabsed. The Hon. and Leariod
Genttemar's speech ;was as attack on the foreign policy of
his Msierty' s Cloveroment, mid in voting for the Codirottre
it was or the purpose of condemning his Majesty's Govern-
bent. Hie Noble Friend was therefore called ”,HI), and he
(Mr. kobinenn) would repeat the statement.—(Hear, hear.)
r—Was it, he would ask,. an amok to the Hoyle of Com-
mons to env, that if the Rouse did not approve, the Gofers-
trent would bow to its decisions? Woo h unconstitutional
fur an Administration to Roy, that if the House of Commons
shewed hg their voles a disinclination to give their eon&
Bence any longer, that the Minister would not affect to
copilot.* the Government without that ronfidence ? He
would appeal to those who braid the epoch of his Noble
Friend ;—he would appeal to the details of that speech—be
would appeal to the impression which that siieech produced
in the House—(Hear, hear, hear, from the Opposition)—if
he could judge of the feelloga4.f those, who {posed hie Noble
Friead's aver+, from the expressions of aotisfartion which it
bad called forth from many of those who were nut particularly
inclined to favour Minister', he was convinced that that (eel-
lag was, that it contained a most complete and eatiefactury
coiner to the attack which had bren made upon Ministers,
and that the raw which had been brought forward by the
Honourable and Learned Geol.-elan had nu rifeience what.
ever to the present question.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CR EEVEY rising, amidst • general call for Mr.
Tierney, said, he would slot trespass upon the patience of
the House, iu its present anxiety to hear bis Right Hon..
Friend below him (Mr. Tierney), who was capable of giving.
them so much more 'lamination and delight, by detaining
them for more than three ur four *eidetic's. The motion of
his Hon. Friend (Mr. Leopold) was merely (or information
to enable the House to judge of the propristy of the •rammt
of charge under this head of the civil list; and the Noble
lord had declared do., he would aol attend the Coollllllllof,
if a Committee should be appointed. That declaration was,
in his opinion, • most extraordinary one to be made to
that House by a Minister of the Crown. It was nut, hoc-
ever, quite new; it corresponded with the declaration of a
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) on a former night, that
whatever resolution the House might some to, he would ii, t
advise the Crown to comply with the object of the motion
then ruder consideration.—(Hear, bear.)—lt was consistent
also with the assertion of the same Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Peel) that the House of Comments was to be governed
by corruption.—(Hear, hear.)—lf that sort of declaration
was to overturn motions fur inquiry of this kind, dies it was
of no use for them to continue sitting there—(Hear, sad
laughter)—they could no longer exercise any power of coo.
trot over the public expenditure; sod it would be necessary
fur the House to make • new declaration of riglits.—(Hear.)
—The Noble Lord said the appointment of • Committ-e
would ben disfiguremeat of the Conatitut ma, an infringement
on the constitutional power of the Crown. But he did cot stew
Committees of his own appointmeut as • disfigoirement of the
monarchy; and this very emahlishmentof the Civil List, as
well as the Superannuation Bill, by which the rate of pea.
sions to be granted by the Crown for public services was fix.
ed, bud both striven out of Committees appointed by this
Noble Lord. The Right Hon. Geotlemas who spoke last said
that no case was made out to call for inquiry. But was it
no point for inquiry that such apporntmems as those that
were enumerated in the return on the table, should be made ?
Was it so point that we should be paying such large allow-
•nces to Ambassadors •t foreign Courts? Was it no point
that in may instances the persons holding those appoint-
ment's were resident in this country ? Was it so point that
Lord Stewart, who held the appointment with a very high sa-
lary, of Ambassador at Vienna, should be living in London,
and that Mr. Gordon, as Charge de Affutres, should be doing
the business at Vienna ? Was it no point that such coma.
gent expenditure was going on in the midst of the greatest
call for economy throughout this country, and while famine
and dial were raging in Ireland,—(Hear, hear, sad mur.
mars from the ministerial leenehen.)--Ile (Mr. Creevey) did
contend that these were grounds for inquiry of the strongest
and most urgent nature, and that to allow mottoes for in-
quiry under such circumstances to be overturned by ouch de-
clarations as had been heard from the Noble Lord nod the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, wasto render it wholly tw-
ine for them to sit there, unless. new declaration of rights
were made, and the power of the House to investigate and
control every branch of the public expenditure were reso-
lutely asserted.
The call for Mr.TIERNEY having been renewed, that
Right Hon. Gentleman rose, sod said the House would give
him credit for sincerity when he assured them list he bad no
wish to trespass on their attention. Rut, after As very
sprat manner in which he had been called upon, lie felt it
ineumbrM on him not to give a silent vole upoo this question.
When it was considered that the table of the House was laden
with petitions from all parts of the country, slitting the ex.
teem, diiitrres under which it was labouring, and eomplatuinl
of the extent of tlw yublic expenditure, it did appear most
onarcouutable, that a motiou that was in itself as temperate
and moderate as could possibly be, haying no other object
than to see bow much can be saved from • certain branch of
the public expenditure, In ordi r to alleviate the burdens of
the country, should be met by that sort of tactic which had
been applied to it by the Noble Losd—(Hear, hear, bear )
—The truth, however, was, that Ministers frit so rose
from the repeated masks of want of confidence which
they had lately received from the Hemet of Commons,
'het they had determined to make a stand upon this
question.—(Hear, hear.)—A meeting Ind been held Mr that
purpose, at which it was deciliter' that now or never was the
time for those who were inclined to support the Ministers to
stand by them.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was undoubtedly c most
constitutional doctrine to tell the country gentlemen, " If
you vole for this motion, you will be marked by us as having
voted against the present Minisit r• " Itut let bins tell the
country gentlemen, that they would have • strict account of
their voles on this question to give to their coustitornie—
and they would Slid that it would be no satisfaction to tell
them that they voted against the motion to prevent the re-
signation of Mini aaaaa .—(Hear, hear, and Isughter.)The
present establishment of the civil list was founded On the
Report of the Committee of I/115, by whom it ass adopted
on an estimate laid before theta by the Secretary to the Trea-
sure, into which they were not permitted to inquire, end Ibe
correctness and expediency of which rested solely ma the
assertion of time Noble Lord, hacked by the signature of
Arbuthnot. It had been intimated to the Huuae in the
course of the present Session, that Isis Majesty had cow
settled to give up thirty thousand pounds out of the civil
He (Mr. T.) was extremely thankful for the cornm•nication
in whatever form it was made; though lie regretted that it
had not been in the form of n message, that he might have
had an opportunity of moving a vote of Mao ha in return.--
The Noble Lord bad &mild them, with regret, that the cur.
tailment of the Civil List by that sum, would render it se.
cessary to abridge the personal comforts of his Majeety.—
But he could give the Noble Lord some comfi,rt no that head,
by assisting him in return that he might be convinced
there was not • word of truth in such • statement.—
(Hear, and laughter.)—The allowance for the fusee's
branch of the Civil List, which was to provide for
the paymetit of tradesmen's bills, was 200.0001, and
that allowance was made 011 the estimate of ISIS. Now,
be would ask any man who heard him, whether saltine
that period he had not experienced a saving of at least 15
per cent. upon their tiadeamett's hulls of every kind, sod, upon
many of them, of from 20 to 23 per cent.?—(Hear, hear.)—
The giving top of the runt that had been mentioned, therefore,
would not abridge the comforts or enjoyments of his Ma-
jesty in the least, but would leave the m as before. if it did
not still leave a surplus. Put in order to avoid what
t lie Noble Lord hail called 4 disgusting elteulittreg" it had heel'
thought inexpedient to examine into the particulars of that
branch of the Civil List; what they had lett to do, therefore,
was to try ',hat savings could be made in $d rises, which was
opts. The Noble Lord said that they could not appoint sCom-
nutter to inquire into this subject without eneroaching on
the privileges of the Crown; but so tar was that foot Whig
the case, that the present form and establishment of the
civil lust grew out of a Committee of that House.—(llrar.)
—That some conaiderable savior mughl be made nut of this
branch of the eatabliahment, there was strong prints feria
reason for supposing, from the circumstance of the summit
of the charge under this head Immo( increased 100,0001.
since 1702, and that it might be done without danger, f
not with great ad, :solace, apip•areil front the Noble Lord's teen
conduct. Time Committee in 1815, formed, or rather adopted
oh the recontneudation of the Noh:e Lord, ea eolimair art

the tiecesskty expense of this class ; and in IsIG, the Nohte
Lord himself came down to the Homer and moved for
• sum lege than that estimate by 28,000 f. Now if that
dmimition had been recommended by soother Conionittee.
would the monarchy hate been Orertornrdby it'—(Hear, aid
langhter.)—lf a Committee were now appoisted, tt was pot, •
sihle that it might filed it perfectly safe to reconianewil a still
father reduction ; there might be some few hems that 'mild
appear to the Committee susceptible of nbritignseul. The
Right H..n. Gentleman opposite (Hr. C. W. Wien') emileal ;
butt lie (Mr. T ) had nut the smallest &into that if the
Sc lot Embassy were to go heron. • Committer—(hear, and
laughter)—it would be impossible, pick and select that
Committee as they might from the niewilons of that House,
that it should report that lice allowances situ appoint•
menu sin that Embassy were us a proper Neste, and ought
to be contissed. The Noble Lord said there had always been
• Minister Plenipotentiary there since the pence, which he
(Mr. Tierney) admitted; and that Russia bad employed
Cogent Cap &Istria ow a similar mission, while Prince
Talleyrand, ea Minister of France, lent his owe no.
phew to the same place. All that might be very tree ; lint
if the nephew of Prince Taliryrand were paid at she rains
rate as the relative of She Right Honourable Detok,
man opposite (Mr. Wynn), all he (Mi. Tietioty) could SAW
was, that it was as extiavagent a job me the part ant.
French Minister as our own.--(Hear, hear, sod laughter.)
—lie was as much avenge as any male could be to the system
of underpaying pub;ic servants, and had always maintained
that no more should be employed them weve ureemary, lent
?bat those who were employed should be paid liberally.
But then it was a proper subject of inquiry, what was
liberal payment, and he did nut doubt that evidence might
be bad short of the Noble Lord, whom he should by nu
means wish to examine—(Laueliter)--afier his decided re-
(neat to give any explanation on the gtound of the solemn
sanction of his official oath sot to divulge the secrets of
State, ahich lie (Mr. T) could out to be so leer-
parably essuriated with the allowances and appointments of
our Ambassadors as that the latter could out be disclonell
without violating the former ; but be did think that evesi'
tinder so great • misfortune to the country or the
retirement of the Noble Lord from office--(Langhterl
—which be by sin mamas wished--(Much laughter).—
evidence might be had from indivielaals in his office, clot
were not under the sanction of an oath, to slew that more
persons than neeessery were. employed, • nall that those em-
ptied were too highly paid. Ile did not tleiok that each
allowances at all added to the kit f this enuatry
abroad. Hoe, fur instance, could the eutortaiumernt by lie
Charles Stuart in Paris of every Englishman who chose to
pay two guineas at the Foreign Office fur a letter of intro-
duction to h m, its order to get a dinner out of hits—
(Leueliter)—how could thief at •11 increase the " moral coo-
eideration " as the Noble Lord called it, of this country In
France? The character and isfluence ore countrywide foreign
nations, was out to be kept np by eating and drinking abroad,
hut by the respect in which the Adenioistration was held at
home.—(Hear, hear.)—lf really and soberly they believed
that sosseuving might be made, and he had no doubt that a
great saving might be made, thee it ought to be done. The
whole system of our foreign diplomacy ought to be new-mo-
delled its order to attain that object, and be had no doubt
that the other Powers would be gird of the opportunity of
following the example; for if our fiteances were in • bad state,
theirs could not be in a much more flourishing condition.
Did the Noble Lord think that soy mass in England would
believe that Ws language on the p it motion meant any
thing more than the language of • man in glass m for his
place'—(Hear, hear.)—The Nibble Lord says, " I don't cue
fur your motion In-morrow." Perhaps he did not; but lie
certainly did four days ago; else why had the meeting been
held for the porpoise of ascertaining what support he might
expect? He (Mr. Tierney) did riot believe it likely that the
Noble Lord would go out —(Hear. hear )-11e did not think
the Earl of Liverpool would resiga. He should like to see
such an event—(Laughter) -there would be something so irre-
aistib!y comic in the Chancellor's face after such • resigna-
tion. tint there was no fear of that happening at present. He
would however tell the country gentlemen whet might hap-
pen—they might be turned out of their counties—(Cheer,
and much laughter)—for, if they voted against this motion
on the grounds of the Noble Lord, it was morally impossible
that they should not be turned out. He hoped, therefore,
to be in a majority again on this occasion. as he had on the
eases of the Lords of the Admiralty, mid the Postmastei-
Gene's'. By the by, lie could not help thinking the con-
duct of Ministers ponieularly hard upon Lord Salisbury,
very respectable old Nobleman, who had mewed the remarry
many years, end would hare been happy and nil log to
it to the end of hie life—(Much laughter.)—Yrs be
was toned out without moth hesitation. They bed eek 1,„
remorse in stripping btm quite soaked, and eendisig him Wok
to his native woods again—(Laughter)—bat nobody would
bear him company; so one went out with and
laughter.)—But touch We Swiss Embassy, and there was IN
bearing it.—(Laughter.)—" If Mr. Henry Wyno goes out,"
said • large petty of Ministers, "we go out to e."--f Much
laughter.)—lie repeated, slat he thought es bigotry would
skew that great savings, not less perhaps than 150,0011 f.
might be made • but he would not retiree the noose by
going into dry details. He had stated milficiently his rea-
sons for the vote which he should give, aunt lie "mold out
trontiNe them further.—(laud and coutinued eheeriag)
Mr. C. W. WYNN expressed hie surprise that Gentlemen
on the other side of the House, with all their coattail otienial
knowledge and experience, should lave declared it to be
eneowstilmional fur the Ministers of the Crow. to declare,
that if the House of Commons withdrew its confidence
from them, they would resign. Acid he contended that the
appointment of a Committee would be an entire removal of
confidence fiats Ministers, and mo an undue interfer-
ence with the power and privileges of the Crown, and that
the inquiry could not he gone into without meddling with
secrets of stale, which it was most important sot to divulge.
Mr. ANTROBUt said • few words, which Die noise of
the House rendered wholly issaudtble in the gallery.
Mr. LENNARD replied.—He had heard twilling iribieb
had not confirmed him in the opinion of the necessity of in-
quiry. He would not say • word at that time un the isib•
jest of the Swiss Embassy, hut wait until tesvorrow (this
day) when it was to be justified by the Noble lard, out
exiraordtnary ground of " mural etturideration."

The Horne thee divided, the uumbers being—
Ayes
Non

Majorily is favour of Mimisters ...... 117
ROMAN CATHOLIC PEERS.
On our return to she gallery, we furred that the Report of
the Roman Catholic Petri. Rill had berm brought up.
It was speed to, twirl the Bill urdertd to be read • third
rime iho Friday next (to morrow).
The other orders of the day were thew severally &voted
of, mad lb. Howse odjorroed at ONE O'CLOCK.