The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1824-02-17 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, MONDAY, FED. 16.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL tool[ the oaths ■nd his scat, as
;Member for Ashburton, which he had ♦acated on his recent ap-
pointment.
31r. BLACKBURN presented a petition from the inhabitants.
the town of Lancaster, for a commutation of tithes.
COAL DUTY.
_ _

Sir W. LEMON presentediiniiic;nlrom the parish of Byron,
in Cornwall, praying for a rep& of the Coal Tar.
Similar petitions were prevented by Mr. Stanley, from liver-
ston, in Lanruhire t Sir C. Hawkins, from the borough of St.
Ives; Sir W. Grey, from the Severn and Wye Canal Company ;
SirjE. Knatehbull, front the Mayor and Commonalty of Deal ; Sir
T. Arland, from Iltracmnbe, and another from Holasworth ; Mr.
Bastard, from Teigninouth, and another from DothMutlee ; ('olonel
Wood, from Staines ; Sir T. Lethbridge, frOm Minehead, Somer-
set; Mr. Portman, from Portland; Mr. Harvey, from Itomlbrd ;
and Mr. Hurst, from Horsham.

Mr. HURSt, in presenting his petition from the inhabitants of
Horsham, observed, that a very great number of signutores were
affixed to its and that among them were the names of many of
thenobility, Baronets, and the gentry, mingled with those of the
tanners, yeomanry, and inhabitants of all ranks and classes. Ile
trusted, therefore, that the Chancellor of the Etchequer would take
into his consideration the subject on which so many petitions had
been laid before the House, and remember, that equality was the
very definition of justice.
DOWDESW ELL moved for further returns of papers from
theCourtof Chancery.

Mr. MAD ERMA' save notice, that to-morrow he should move
for certain papers relative to the duties on malt and beer.
USURY LAWS REPEAL BILL.
—•— • - • -- - -

- -
The Order of the Day foe the second reading of the Bill for a re.
peal of the Usury Laws being moved,
ilr. DAVENPORT observed, that the country was now in a
flourishing state, and he knew no reason why the old system of the
Usury Laws should not be abolished. There were a number of
persons possessing small estates in the country, and what were they
to do, if, when they wanted a sum of money, they could not obtain
it. If the laws weredone away with, if he found any difficulty in
getting it (tom one person, he would find none in procuring it from
another. Ile (Mr. Davenport) felt more for the borrower than he
did for the lender, bemuse the laws were less in favour of the former
than the latter, as they at present stood. It was for this reason he
opposed them. lie therefore moved the second reading of the Liill.
Mr. R. COOPER, in seconding the motion, said that the
present laws were highly pernicious. He could not conceive any
argument in support of them, and unless he did hear them, he
should feel convinced there were none.
The Bill having been read a second time,

Mr. HOME said, that he believed the intention of all law was
to give a perfect freedom to bargains of every description ; but that
the present usury laws had a contrary effect ; and he felt convinced
that much good would arise from the clew Ms Majesty's Ministers
had taken of the question. There exists no law to oblige an un-
derwriter to take a particular sum for his risk; and he thought the
risk which a lender undertook should be on the same principle.'
He (Mr. Hume) supported as much the cause of him who borrowed
as of him who lent ; but his wish was to assimilate the rate of bor.
rowing with the rate of assurance. He thought, however, that all
affairs of the kind should be calculated to meet the public ere, that
their fairness or unfairness might be universally known. lie ob-
served, that if ever there were a time for removing the usury laws
from the stntnt- hook, it was the present.
Sir JOHN WROTTESLEV said that the present rate of inte-
rest was from three to six per cent.; and he could not conceive what
could be the intention in bringing in such a Bill, hut to bring down
destruction on young and inexperienced men. These laws had for
their object the prevention of usury, which, not only in this cuuu.
try, but in every country in Europe, had been of such injurious
tendency ; and he believed, instead of being detrimental, they had
been highly serviceable to the interests of this land. If this mea-
sure, which had existed so long, were now to be repealed, it should
not be dune on theoretic grounds, but with the prospect of practical
good. If we looked to the agricultural interest, we should perceive
bow likely it was to be affected by any change. A landed proprie-
tor had seldom, at present, any difficulty in procuring money, on
good security, at five per cent.; but the lender, if he were not pre.
vented, who now gives his money at four or five, would demand six
or seven per cent., and so on, without knowing hots far. 4 )n the
classes which are the most useful of all--the employers of our arti-
sans, and manufacturers—die effects would be still more injurious.
They would find still more difficulty in procuring money, because
their security was not so grad as that of the landed proprietors.
He (Sir J. IVrottealey) was convinced that the repeal of the usury
laws would bring the manufacturing classes into a state of the
greatest distres i. flow would it affect the government of the coun-
try, the funds of which were at one time so low as :00 ? If the usury
laws had not existed, the government could never have procured
money, that money which was so useful for the protection of the
country. Some persons affirmed that the monied interests would
be advanced, but this he (Sir J. Wrottesley) altogether denied ;

and he declared it to be his opinion, that the repeal of the usury
laws would be ruinous to the landed proprietors, highly detrimental
to the manufacturing elsseee, and injurious to the goveminent of
the country. He hoped therefore the learned Sergeant would not
persevere in bringing forward his motion.
Mr. JOHN SMITH observed, that the gentleman who preceded
him declared that the repeal of the Usury Laws would be injurious
to three great classes ; yet the Usury Laws had been abolished all
over Europe, and no country, nor any class of it, Iliad been
ruined by the proceeding; on the cannery, there was reason to
think the interests of ell had heels greatly advanced by it. He
(Mr. Smith) had witnessed many instances of their ruinous effects
upon several families,' by the custom of selling annuities for a sum
of money. Ilan individual bed occasion for 1,0001. he might easily
i procure it, were it not for the Usury LOWS, at all events by paying
• sum of perhaps seven per cent., matted of, as he must now do,
fourteen or fifteen per cent. If any doubt existed an to the latter
fact, it might be easily proved by prawns who had suffered by such
circumstances. With respect to the commercial body, to whom
the Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Wrotteeley) particularly alluded, he
(Mr. Smith) could safely assert, that the motion for repeal would
not meet with the slightest opposition front them. Under the pre-
sent laws, when a person wan applied to for the lean of a sum of
money, he was obliged to demand a premium at the expense of his
honour ; and thus in a manner forced to become infamous. He
(Mr. Smith) had not found a man WNW.° understanding he could in
the slightest degree respect, who would hare ventured to take the
side of argument in favour of the Usury Laws.
Mr. P. OREN FELL, hoped the /lease would, at least, take the
opinion of the Attornq-Geoeral on the subject before them. The
lion. Baronet (Sir J. Wrottesley) appeared to think that the repeal
of the Usury Laws would increase the interest on money. But in '
Holland, when there wens no lawsid the kind, the rate of loterest
was lower than in any other country. He trusted that his Majesty's
31inisters would take up the question with the usual public spot
they had so generally shown.
Mr. lIUSKISSON °bittern% that he was a member of the
Cows:Wee to whom the question was referred in 1814. The
opinions heat that time formed renamed unchanged. He thought
the repeal of the Usury Laws, so far from injuring commerce,
would considerably benefit it, and prevent much of the imposition
and hawk to which they led.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he
was aware on stinhasubjeet there must be always many argument,
for and against ; he would observe, however, that the circumitatices
under which the question was now brought forward were very dif-
ferent to those of last year. If it were necessary to amend the
Usury Laws, the present time was es good as any that could ever
offer. He knew that it was a very easy matter to evade the laws ail
they at present stood.
Mr. CALCRAFT admitted that no fitter period could be se-
lected for the alteration of these laws than the present, and that in
point of principle it was not easy to defend them, though in practice
he was convinced that it would be dangerous, in • country like this,
where there was so general a diffusion of capital, and where money
was lent at so low and fair an interest. He wits satisfied that if his
Majesty's Government expected to obtain money at a lower rate by
repealing t:te Usury Laws, the would find themselves mistaken.
On the contrary, the effect would rather be to raise it against them.
It was in vain for the House to attempt to protect individuals from
the consequences of' ruinous contacts in money, unless it would
undertake to regulate the conduct of individuals. The danger
most to be appriffieuded was, that the Bill would facilitate the ope-
ration of borrowing by extravagant persons, without giving any
proportionate advantage to that steady, industrious, economical part
of the commitnity,whom the House ought more particularly to seek
to benefit. Übe had thought that Government would have taken
up this Bill as it had that evening appeared to be their intention to
do, he would have provided himself more fully for the discussion.
lie would, however, venture to assert, that the evidence before the
Committee would not bear out the statements made in support of
the Bill ; and that according to that evidence there was no such
prospect of advantage from the proposed alteration as would war-
rant the House in adopting it. If indeed there was any difficulty
lin obtaining money on reasonable terms for roomer:nal specula-
tior.s---if capital was not severally diffused, or was lent at a high
and extortionate rate—if, during me existences of these Usury Laws,
I this country had not increased to wealth, faster in pmportion even
than Holland, a case might have been made out in favour of the
Bill for repealing them; but though he admitted the general prin-
ciple of continence was favourable to the proposed alteration, yet
with thise facts before them, he trusted the House would pause
before it agreed to the .Bill advocated by the Right Hon. Gentle-
men opposite. In opposing it, supported as it was by their info-
' ence, he knew he spoke in vain, the should not have felt that
he had discharged his duty if he had suffixed it to pass in silence.
On the next discussion he would bring with hint the minutes of
evidence taken before the Committee, and phew that this Bill would
be attained with results highly pernicious if it passed into a law.
Mr. Sergeant ONSLOW suipka his surprise at the opposi-
tion of the Honourable denefftran who had attended the Oen-
mittee on this subject, and agreed to the whole of its proceedings.
(lifer, hear!) As, however, the House generally had read the
evidence, he should have abstained front taking part in the discus-
sion if he had not feared that it would hare been construed into die.
respect. Ilia Honourable k'ricnd (Sir John Wrottesley) had
spoken of the policy of these laws; but the fact was that they were
originally founded on the express doctrine, that to take interest was
contrary to the principles of the Christian religion. The early law
allowed no interest at all ; it therefore threw the trade of lending
into the hands of the worn part of the community, who took care
to be recompensed adequately for the odium they incurred
by their pursuit. It was, indeed, objected, than those who chose
to evade the usury laws, could resort to redeemable annui-
ties. This remedy had been resorted to, and what was the con-
sequence ? That looney had been taken up at 111, 12, 13, and 14
per cent., on three or four lives. (Hear, heat.) Such was the
remedy of which the Hon. Baronet was so much enamoured. lie
(Mr. Sergeant Onslow) did not speak of his own knowledge, but
on the evidence given before the Committee, when he called the at-
tention of the House to the notoriety of the evasion of thelaws by
these practices. So common was the custom, that trust money had
been bequeathed expressly to be laid out in annuities, and it had
been stipulated that the purchase money of estates should be in-
vested hea similar manner. The Hon. Baronet had also objected
that the commercial interests would be borne down if the laws
against usury were repealed. But hoe also it appeared fbmi the
evidence that an expedient was resorted to by which the laws were
effectually evaded. Stock was borrowed, end it was proved thit in
one instance a loss of 30 per cent. was sustained. Surely a Leone
easy succedarierin, and more complete remedy, would be to make a
small addition to the interest in recompense for the danger and
odium of the trade. The ;fill before the House would place deal-
ings in money on the same footing as dealings in all other ermines-
ditties. At present, under pretence of assisting the borrower, the
Legislature crippled hint and by their absurd and mischievous
protection materially injured' him. With these views he trusted
the llousp would forward the bill through the remaining stages.
The Leal ned Sergeant conelittled with an apology for troubling the
House again with his sentiments, but he conceived it would have
been considertel eiereepectful if lie had reniaincel silent.
31r.8A RI NG said that the subject before the house was of great
importance, and particularly as at the present moment he believed
a change in the usury laws would produce no immediate effect
whatever, and therefore this was the fittest opportunity to discuss
the question, and, if necessary, to legislate upon it. (Hear, hear.)
By legislating, he meant to remove the false legislation by which a
maximum was affixed to the rate of interest. (Hear, hear.) It
was impossible to assign any reason why a nta.riniens should be
affixed to the value of money, while every other kind of property
was allowed to regulate itself. This was almost the only year fur
the last half century, that the subject could be safely legislated
upon, and as even the ingenuity of his lion. Friend (Mr. Cal.
craft) could afford no argument against the repeal of the Usury
Laws, he trusted this Session would not he allowed to was over
without so desirable a measure. His lion. Friend had objected
that capital had accumulated, notwithstanding the existence
of these Laws. The reason was, that they had been im-
perative, the evasion was at all times so easy. The very
class who, above all others, would he benefited by the repeal would
be the country gentlemen, who had taken such singdlar alarm at
time measure. tie (31r. Caring) wished the Bill to go further, if it
were only to remove their groundless apprehensions. The measure
was calculated not to prejudice but to relieve them, If, however,
it was impossible to persuade them so, it would be easy, in de-
ference to their alarms, to except loans of money on mortgages.
There could be no doubt of the benefit of the repeal of the
usury laws, as to the mercantile and manufacturing interests.
None of them spoke in support of the existing law, which had
always been inoperative as to the merchants and Government, who,
during, the last war, had burrowed at desperate usury. At present,
the moment the rate of interest passed 3 per cent. the country
gentlemen were compelled, instead of advancing to h or 51, to
jump at once to 11 or 15 per cent. What they adhered to as
benefit was, in reality, their greatest injury and worst curse.
(Hear, hear).
Captain 31ABERIX spoke in support of the Bill, the prin-
ciples of which had been advocated by the late Sir S. Hominy and
the lamented member for Portmlington (Mr. Ricardo). All the
able writers on the subject were agreed that the usury laws were
very pernicious.
Sir W. DE CRESPIG NY said a few words in approbation of
the bill.

Mr. J. MARTIN said the existing law was injurious to ...IT
chases, but particularly to the country gentlemen. If, however,
they were ditisati.thed with the bill, he would prefer to except
mortgages front its operation.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the !louse di-
vided.

For the second reading, 1211—Against it, 23—Majority, 97.
The bill was then read a second time ; but owing to the noise
in the gallery, we could not hear for when tho third reading
was fixed.

WAY'S AND MEANS.

The CHANCELIAAi of the Ejcelik(kirEß, on rising to
move that the Report of the Committee of '1 'ays and Means be
brought up, said that it was not his intention to move that those
particular parts of the Report be brought up relating to the si-
nus! duties. In the Committee he had stated grounds, from
which he believed no sufficient mason could he shewn tier dissent-
ing; but as be rnderstood an Honourable Member intended to
propose an amendment on the resolution respecting the duty on
foreign spirits; and as he (the Chance!lor of the kxcliemter) had

stated, in answer to some applications to him on the subject of the
reduction of duties, that he was not at liberty to explain his inten-
tions until that day sennight (hear, hcar)t though he did not feel
that to ask for the annual duties would preclude himself or any
other person deem proposing an alteration of the permanent duties ;
yet, lest it might he supposed that he was thus calling silently for
their opinion, while he declined giving his own, he considered it
would be more consistent with fairness, and a proper feeling to-
wards the House, if he abstained from bringing up those parts of
the report to which he had alluded.
Mr. BRIGHT said, that as he believed he was the person to
whom the Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded, he was sorry that
he had induced the Right Hon. Gentleman to adopt a merit in-
convenient to bis public duty.
The Order of the Day was then read. On the question that the
"Stbe beenet up,
e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that there
was a certain degree of inconvenience ir pmeponing the consider-
ation of the ways and means, but be apprehended there would be no
objection to his moving on Wednesday next for a vote from the
surplus of the consolidated fund ; as unless the House was,disposed
to give them (the Ministers) the means of meeting the supplies
already voted, they would be placed in a singular and inconvenient
position.
Mr. eLIBERLY cautioned the House against withholding the
supplies. The consequence would be, that they would be pre-
vented from effecting a reduction of the permanent taxes. It would
be better therefore, he thought, to take the totes in the ordinary
enure. Notice had been given of motions for the reduction of duties
on windows and leather. He trusted, therefore, that his Honour-
able Friend (Air. Hume) would abstain from this mooted point, and
suffer the ways and means to rake their ordinary course. and leave
the whole question open to future consideration.
Mr. HUME said It was very desirable to have the couree intend-
ed to be followed by the Right Honourable Gentlemen made
known as soon as possible. With respect to the duties on sugar,
and especially rum, he could me no reason why the inordinate
duty on the latter article, amounting to an actual prohibition,
should not be reduced. The Right lion. Gentlemen said, he
was prepared to assign a reason ; then why did he not postpone
the question ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEIL—That is what
I propose to do.
REMEMBRANCERSHIP OF THE EXCHEQUER.
Mr. BARING, in a low tone of voice, inaudible in the Gallery,
put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. respecting the re.
cent appointment to the vacant office of King's Remembiancer it
the Court of Exchequer.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER raid he was
obliged to the lion. Gentleman for the opportunity he had given
him of an explanation on the subject. It was perfectly true
that, on the death of Mr. Steele, the office of King's Remembrancer
in the Court of Exchequer became vacant, and that Vincent
had been appointed to succeed him. The lion. Gentleman (Mr.
Baring) would not suppose hint (the Chancelioi of the Exchequer)
so utterly ignorant, or so grossly inattentive to his duty, as to have
failed to advert, first, to the Act of Parliament tiw the regulation of
the office; and, secondly, to the Reports of tile Vonmeittee by which
that Act had been introduced. But a few days huh elapsed after
the decease of Mr. Steele, when the attention of the Treasury was
directed to the express purpose of carrying into effect, with the
smallest delay, the recommendations of the Committee and the pro-
visions of the law. The Act did not provide fur the absolute abo-
lition of the office, nor for any mode in which its duties were to be
performed ; but only for the future regulation of its emoluments.
The Lords of the Treasury had. in pursuance of the Act, lost no
time in calling on the Chancellor and Barons of the Exchequer to
report on the nature of the office. On inquiry it appeared, that,
from the constitution of the Exchequer, the duties of the office were
necessary to be performed, at least till a new system could be ar-
ranged, which perhaps might not prove quite so easy a task as was
supposed, uniting the must convenience with the least expense. rt
was found absolutely necessary that the duties of the office should
be discharged, and therefore that somebody should be appointed.
On the Vii of December a Treasury minute was made for the ap-
pointment of Mr. Vincent, by which he was required to perform the
duties in person, but precluded from appointing a deputy. He was
directed to receive all the fees, not for himself, but for the purpose
of paying them into the Consolidated Fund. The Lords of the
Treasury reserved to themselves the power of giving him a male-
rate but adequate remuneration for the discharge of the duties
of the office. The appointment was necessary to prevent the'
Eublic businessfrom standing still. Ile (the Chancellor of the
xchequer) could assure the House, that he was anxious to regu-
late
the office ; and, whatever difficulty there might be in deter-
mining the precise mode of regulating it, there certainly *as none
in affirming that it might be performed at much less expense.
Mr. Vincent was appointed under a distinct understanding that his
situation was merely temporary, and that he had no claim :o fell
office when the lords of the Treasury felt themselves in a con-
dition to form • permanent arrangement with respect to It. -
Mr. BARING took it for granted that the Act did not prevent
the collection of the fees. He trusted some means would be found
to re-model the Exchequer. Intogether. (Hear, hear.) It was •
mode of keeping the accounts of the nation socumbrous, ridiculous,
and absurd, that it would be a disgraee to a trite of Indian savages.
(Hear, hear, bear.)
The Report was then brought up.
DUTY ON PEN.eIONS AXE SALARIES.
Mr. lIL'3IE gave notice, that when the question came under the
consideration of the House, he should move that the duty on pen-
sions, places, and salaries, should be abolished. The trifling
amount raised by this tax cost 2,01.001. in poundage. lie should pro-
pose that in future it be deducted at once front the salary. Two
years ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer pledged himself to have
the whole subject re-modelled. Though it professed to be a tax on
all pensions and places, yet in the Act there were le cr 20 excep-
-601121. The duty was only collected in about 300,0001. of all the
amount paid in pensions and salaries. The Treasury, by a war-
rant, might excuse any officer from its operation, so that, in fact,
it applied only to a few minor offices.
The Report was then agreed to, with the exception of the pars
relating to the annual duties, which were ordered to be taken into
further consideration on this day sennight.