The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1822-05-03 00:00:00

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tad* with two Noblemen, who could not

pate in the business of theoffice—who, could titei
be provoked to act, would do nothiiig •but whet
Mast be baneful in a department which particular:ly
required ainglenesa of purpose to faiiiitese the per
formance of the duties ? As to the character given

aniallse.by the liable klaseips that :it ,sins
rash innovation aria -a
'lima tor revolution, this,
no doubt, hid the effect at the time; hot how must
they be surmised at the conduct of the •Nottle •
Iliarcpais on the next night, when he admitted that
he was ignorant of Lord Clancarty having been
abroad while he was in the office of Pnstmastet-
General ? The Inkiness of the (Ace might be done be
deputy, and the holder might lieallowed leave of ab-
sence, but responsibility could not he intermittent.
'lto then referred to the two Hills which had been
brought in in lftli and 1813 for reducing this
ofiCeer ie which these arguments had never been
111110. He ought to express his surprise that this
ari:fled been left out of the list for the reduction
ocwhich the Bill of 1847 was brought in. Hteharl
Itifore stated the reason* why he did not include
the Irish Postalsatere; though if he succeeded now,
Olwo!ion to that effect would follow of coulees He
peaticuied those who were wavering in opinion, to
beware of the dread which had been before awaken-
ed in them for the influence of the Crown, which
wes described to he endungered by his motion ; he
defied the 'tegennity ot any one to give so fearful
an effect to that argument agsiu. He thought
be bad brought shove who opposed then condi:-
signally to say, that the Government was exectl/
V,OOO/. to expensive, and that there were no more
our lets than two places too many in the Govern-
nittit. He compared the argunieuts for the de-
fence to the last miserable shifts of a spendtrift to
eentioue his intercourse with .‘ those Gentlemen of
another persoasiore" after having needy exhausted
himself in teaming the m)sterteepf Z. The
distress of the country ought to enforce the reduc-
tion of this place. When distress compelled them
ins dispense with luxuries, surely they could best
'ef•. without that for which they had a duplicate.
• Tbe country wits dirtreinsd, end ought to forego the
luxury of a double Postmaster. He drew other
'arguments for hit motion from the intelligence of
the community, the increase of which hart been so
ably manifested by his Noble Priemd the other
metal on the nue/lama, and the locreesed ioflisence
of the Crown by dicier..4e screotte offices, pith-
he debt, and increese of colonial possessions,
which made the office less necessary to the Crown,
on the other. The neglect of such improve..
meats had stimulated tbet cry ror Iti.eform
which resounded through the land, which was te-
wehoed not alone from the dense manufacturing
population, but followed the selstare plough,—
He expatiated on the datigers of continually Owen-
.ing public opinion on these subjects, of stern:Mpg
and vexing it iu the course, irresieltble es it must
in emsclusiou be, and instead of preperiag channels
in which they might guide it with safety, press-
ing within its bound+ and eggrpeeting it! force.
The chief anxiety which he felt 'spoil the eubjeet
.*as, that a hewer system might be adopted, not that
hr thought the adoption of the measure would be
unimportant, but that the rejection of it would be.
accompanied with ciecunenaocee which would dis-
appoint the lingering hopes of the people, and con-
tiro their worst suspicions of the House of Conn-
cheris,l—The Noble Lord coo-
t-holed by moving a Re eilsitinn to this erect I—
" 'Mt an humble Address be prevented to his Majesty,
preying that be would he graciously plea:ed to direct that
the ofs;e of one of the Joist P.istinsusra4evieral should be
•bolishrd,•nd the *Mari saved to the ptitthe."
The CtianceLLoa of the EXCIMIQUER hoped
Omit the House of Commons wools] never allow
their decisions to be influenced by any apprelten-
stons of popular clamour, but that the House
would come to a calm and deliberate deciaion
upon the merits of the question, nor could he
suppose that the people of England would judge
nniastly the proceedings of Parliament. The
I\uble Lord had adverted to the subject of Re-
burnt, but that questiou hail lately been decided
afar a full discussion, and in that decision he had
i'. doubt the House spoke the sentiments of the
couotry ; and those who opposed that motion would
return with as much confidence to their apnea-
tu entre as those who had endeavoured to seise a fleet-
ing popularity upon the question. He now came
to the question more immediately before the House,
and in the first instance, he could nut avoid remark-
ing that the Noble Lord had taken rather an ass-
tsted course in bringing forward a measure which
hid bees. already decided. 1k knew he had not ex-
silly gone beyond the privilege* of the House, but
ate all events he had chosen a course extremely in-
cmovenient.—(Cheers from the Opposition).—llf a
•stoestion sulemloy decided by Parliament was set to
•be considered at rest for the Session, he could not
ow where their labours were to end. The Noble
• Lord had abstained from entering into the merits
of the question, and as these had been so 11116.
dts-
ctrs•ed upon a former OeCt99oll, he should follow
fist exiimple. Hut he must -dem, .the imputation
that the maintenance of this office had been
feuded upon the ground of preserving the 0h5...)
elice of the Crows,. The Postmasters-General
juinsly formed a Board for transecting the im-
portstit concern; of the Post-Office; they Went
jointly respousihte, end jointly conducted the
duties of the noise. Beiridol, lie would ask, was
a' tight to intrust the disposal of two mil-
liens of the pith:ic money to vise person ? He
liiiew the illostriimi character station of these

Noblest-a precluded the poodbility of suepicion,
wes it proper that en trust a sum should be
louder the direcituit of sty one person, and upon
• his vide and iudividisal responsibility ? But what-
ever might be raid upon the iiients of the question,
the °We could not be abolished upon the grounds
of. ecnimasy. The•weestion was, whether the mu-
asp:ernes of the office should be intrusted to •
Bused composed of four or five gentlemen, or to two
Nchleinen. Whatever sight be the
result of the qnestiou, upon • which, nu doubt,
the wisdom of Parliament would properly de-
,' (-Ale, it most be admitted that the pistil was
• very inctiovement moment. An inquiry hid heeu
/et nit foot to investigate the ilettet, of the office,
'ma k the details bring Wand too complicated for the
apvissbui of the Ttemory, it was his tatention to
• ieforrlor a sisrlimpentary inquiry.; and under these
cuitatisesneet, said pendia( 'such au inquiry, he
• was sure tub H.,ora would see the propriety °fits-
.o.twiAretheir unworn to • future occasion.
tbe osiomatimalkaded

.- '

..,

biPtlFKßiAbi,on. EtivltotiVirtCp Ake
,4„tow ,Use ,tp•tlie; od
,plm) or The aft • ci week nudes sot:eiders-
nos of,* Committee.of A• 793, and •thire Awl left
it to the coe.ideratioo of -the Honor whether it
would not be better to place the office under the
-7041Ce4Leiaiv..Rf i :Booed. .He mewled Pith Mitt,
Right Hon. Friend in thinking that experience
had proved the duties of the office could not be
better conducted than at present ; but if he iota
able to prove that the duties of the Ace could be
conducted as well, and the saving
.effected, he
thottgjit be illiquid :produce more satisfactory*
eone sit favour of the motion than his sight Hog.
Freud had adduced against it. .Now in all toot-.
ten of public importance, and the inmegemetit tf
public affairs, it might be useful to have in coedits
of dispute an umpire .to decider-bet where Ole,
were two persons, tenth in equal authority. and boll
tenacious of their opinion., of any toisonfterstsoshr
tog arose, there was no knowing what might be the
ca.naripience. Whyot might atop the wings of the
mail-coaches, and impede their passsge to the dif.-
facia ;ails of the country.—(A ap-
peared upon the discussion of the navy estimator,
lint in the ease of some office. he believed a store.
keeper in the Victualling Office, two persons were
in charge of it, one of whom had got ill, and the
mike was intrusted with the key of the till and
bad stolen a sum of money. Nor it was very
far front his intention to draw any comparison—(A
laugh)—but he mentioned the circumstance to *hew
how • division of charge destroyed tht lesponeibi-
litv. He.begged the attention of the-House to the
office of Paymaster-General. The Committee of
1814 had recommended the abolition of one of
them, and in so doing they acted wisely, for the
responsibility tumid fall upon one; the other was
only nominal. When he hod the honour of intro-'
ducing a measure to Parliament in 1814, for regu-
lating various offices the office now under discus.
sion was included, auil he then had the satisfaction
of having the support of a eery distingoiehed friend
of his, the then Prondeot of the Board of Con.
trot ; and although he had uot the happiness of
seeing him (Mr. Canning) iu hie place, yet he had
the pleasure of seeing the present President (Mr.
Wynn). thaw whom um mint bad a higher ye-
nerutiou for the pnvileges of she ICrowil mod the
entiqoity of office. yet Imes that opeastois he
had the honour of his vote.—(Hear, hear.)—
His Right Hon. Feierid who had just pit down was
ales aosiosist bia supPorterP,(Hear, hew)—and Its
had the setisfaction besides of being stiretKult4
the Hight Hon. Commissioner of Woods sad
Forests,—(Cheers and laughter.)—Now all these
PeeflerPee he bed mentioned had supported the
measure be had introduced for abolishing all ofsC3s
that could be abolished eonsinenily with the pnbtic
service. lie should wish then to know whet were
the circumstances that could alter their (mini+
since 1813. ir there was any thing tSt
could ineneace the deliberations of that
mere particularly, it would be the
passed at the end of the last Session. That
eddies, stared, that it was expedient that the
civil government should be rrdpced as much us
pomade, end every seduction made llsit could be
•effeeted without detriment to the stabile service.
If then the duty of the office could be done by
I one, he saw no reason why two should he continued.
The subject of 4,eforin had keen introduced ipso
this debate. Ou that he would say he should Op- I
pose it, because he eosisidered the House of Conwl
mirk fit to perform its functions. and although it
might not be a faithful image of the.sentirnents of
the people, and reflected every charge in their
opinions, yet it represented the molar! 46413.- He
would always wish thut the House of Commons
should pronounce their decisions fearlessly. and
uninfluenced by popular clamour; but at the
same time they should yield to the jqst
'de-
mands of the people fur useful &maw,. VW
only resist them when they required that wilds
would not be for their advaistege.—(Hear,
He believed this was the last complete sinecure now
in existence, and he therefore lipped it would be
abolished.; and he called upon those elm ssis.romer
occasions had voted for its verunvel, to pursue the
same course upon the present occasion.
Mr. HIJSKIIIION said Ire should not trouble the
I House with soy opinions of his, if be had ton bees
alluded to by his Honourable Friend who had just
rat down. He had atm referred to the opinions of
a Right Honaourshle Friend (Mr. Claiming), who
was absent on account of slight indisposition. As
fir as related to himself, he wished to supply that
part of the history of the triumetion. which laid
heen omitted by hie Himunible Friend. His
flonourible Friend had devoted much of his time
to the abolition of useless offices and sinecures,
arid to endeavour to provide souse other means
to enable the Crown to recompeuee past seines'.
In that undertaking be (Ur. H.) /nein shag
with him. However, having failed in the siitempr,
a Committee was appointed to. Itll7 to consider the
number of offices diet might, be aboJislied„,,autt the
best means for enablimithe Croitia to,..tword
pßls-
lie v4rvaittr. His Hotsouoable Friend recommended
the abolition of one of the Postmasters-General.
Accordingly, some of the officer, from the Post.
office were called and nominee,. end after a full
examination, the Cousonthiscame 14 &Moraine.
tint, that the office of Pustcoaster-General' did ont
come within the denoinistabon of offices which
should he abolished. Kew under these cir-
cumstances he did ruat see wiry any person whobed
supported his Houourable Friend in 1814,
might not, with perfect moist...my, oppose hem
on the present occasion. His Honourable Friend
had alluded to. the Address of AMA .Beoinn,
and he would tell him whet the.(lovernmeutlisil
done since then. The address was passed in the
latter end of Jane, and before the meeting of Pm-
liameut the Treasury fbuod they would not have
time to have completed their intptirsms and there.
fore smote to a determination to renew all. t:* corn.
• missions (ccost in the departments of the Customs
and the Excise, and he thought it would be heeler
to follow up that address, by waiting until the vv.
bolt of these inquiries had hero luiciv known. The
. motion of the Noble Lord appeared..to,liiru. inctlnv
si.teat with the course pursued' bet Isis. flouottrehle
Friend, and as he would tattier tollemhirts than the
Noble Lord, lieshotild vote *genial lis,inutroni,
Sir J.SEneiGur mid that voloo..die.,Rryrni:ll4oo
tiou first eamobrefere turn he did, ant, coolio.kr.,a, of
such importance as lie did at present... Rati.he
they& the link of argument pursued .a the edict

•
aide tep4ed loneedseeferpete the gr.* .te CM. ,
w moos then ay'lailitpage .ihr:had oreetw-drserd within
the wells of Parlitioned.---•(fiear,, beell."11 did 81,-
pear to him that the uegumeoteused op the other
site were calculated tothrow contempt upon the
higher classes of society. What, Sir, were we to he
Wit Oust the Gwyn nurd -e-tain these men tofiye
to preserve its iiinsience ? The reenter Euglautl,
these old liiidorical names whictinve were taught to
reverence, were, it seemed, to be purchased foe
3 00W. • .year to du their duty by the Crow, slut
the country. Uposi this ground the motion be.;
came extremely important. They might as well
iimert a sum in the estimates to purchase a certain
mainbee of Peen in order to preserve the miltience
of the Crown.—(Cheera.)
Mr. HOLIIR Summits said, the principle which
had regulated his rote upon the lag (wet:pion NA
should upon this was, lime disposition lie saw to
smack the iitatitutiotis of the tioutitry. All 1
through the country county meetings huh been
held to petition P4rliminent to relieve their dis-
tresses, and as there would he always found men
to take advantage of the distresses of the country,
they generally found that oily thing was iiitioducetl
rather thou the objects fur which the meetings were
assembled. He was sorry to find the seine pint
had been introduced into and House ; and that ,
tpenight One tax, to-morrow another tax were to he
teptaltd, this office and that office were to be
abolished, and where they were to stop he could not
judge.—(Laughing on the Opposition aide.)—But
the moment of public excitement was not the time
when that coarse should be pursued. It we* not
with a view to this particular question he should
oppose the motion, but with a view to preserve our
institutimis, which he thought were attacked.
Mr. BRIGIFF differed entirely from the lion.
Gentleman who had just Hit down; for he con-
ceived this was the proper time to iuselstiipite, and
to chew the people that the Hours of Commons
were really the guardians of their iatierete. He
thought sufficient grounds hid been made out why
the office should he abolished, and he sincerely
hoped the itietiota would be carried.
Mr. Titestayee understood that a pledge had
been given to abolish all sinecure*, and he conk!
not see how that pledge would be tedeetned until
the office of Postmaster-General were abolished.
Mr. STUART WOZTLET said it was Ina intention
to support the mistioti.—e(Hear. hear.)—When it
was last before the House, he had opposed it with
considerable hesitation. Had it been merely a
question, whether Owe should hive been one or
two Postautaters-General, he should have ;to doubt
which grey to vote; bat when he cot,.idrrrd the
attacks made upon the revenue of the country. and
the attempts made to repeal taxes and abolish offices,
and when he perceived the tune mid temper which
prevailed through the contery, he did not wish to
be dragged au to vote awry our establishments.
But that spirit now seemed tiehave subsided, and
he could with the mere confidence vote for the
present motion. But if Government gave a pledge
that the matter should be inquired into, awl that
Parliament woold afterwards have an opptiriuudy
of pronouncing en opinion upon it, that would
alter the case materially. If it were the single
question aye or no, whether one Postinsster should
be removed, he certainly should say aye.
Lord LonFioNEOERRY said, that atter the full
discussion which had been gives on a former
occa-
sion to this subject, it would not be necessary for
him to say more than merely to put the question
oil its fair grounds, and lie must say, that whether'
he considered it an adroiiiiittrative or a financial
question, his opinion remaired unaltered. Theo
how did the question stand ? The Committee of
1797 had recommended the maintenance of two
Potstmasters-Genetal. The Coinmittee of lel7
hid determined that it would be inexpedient to
intrust the duties of the office to a Board, and that
the office of Postmaster-General did nor come with-
in the scope of what his Right Hou. Friend celled
s sinecure. He could nut agree with his lion.,
Friend behind ('lr. Wortley), that the causes
which had produced his manly vole had ceased to
exist, he saw no ;woof of moderation of temper on
the other side of the House; sod be hoped the
[louse would never be induced to found their de-
cisions wet any clamour that might be mired.
Hlr flottourable Fries(' (Mr. Banker) had referred
to the address with which the last Session had been
closed. That address had recommended tot inquiry
into the several Insulates of the revenue; tied in
fact every single branch of the revenue had hero
iraquireel into worm thee, except the Excise suit
Customs. An inquiry woo actually tot foot into
this very office, arid the House should milady and
dispsssumately await the result, for it was not to
be supposed that Parlionseat could examine the
subject so coolly mod with SO much impartiality,
as five Cominis,imunero ups. their emirs. He there-
fore hoped the Horse would see the propriety of
hearing the Report of the Commitoimiers before
they. pronounced a Boat Opinion. When the Coro-
missemers had rejoined on this office, the House
would have the whole of the particulars before it,
sad dealt. and not till then. consistent with their
votes of last year, would it be competesit for them
to take the question into their consideration.
Mr. WILBERFORCE said, the questiou had ait-
Sowed an importance from the ground on winch it
had been defended, fir beyond what it merited
from the amount of the sum to be roved.—(Hear.)--
t was called in this House an office to support die
iefluence of the Crown ; but there wins tumult r raid
a (venter. wings by which it was geuerally known.
. Was it riot Sli office generally gireu to a prgauli to
induce hits illltter to Sale for Government
(Hear, Hear.)—(Nothiug could tend more to sup.
Not the tate, which were afloat respectieg that
than the notion that they. were keeping up
useless places.

Sir P; BLASS midi that ihorgh he give credit
to the Mtnitsteri fur what they had door, yrt he
WWI COUtips(l thtt much inure ought to Imre been
. dine ; mud hi could not b ref that, in his opinion,
this country was mote insevhbrd to .tlir lion. Mem-
bee fur Aberdeen than to •Itthe hlitts•trrs put tb.
:iketber.—(Hew, and a lauih.)—lle had hot licutti
.44114141 e 4081011 for keeping two Postutosteis-Gene-
ral, and therrfure the sooner one was got rid of the
beim:. Ho should not do justice to his own led-
hoge•if, before he sat Mown, he did snit express lint
gratilude to the firm. Member for Aberdven fur
,the good' he hid, rifertrd : to him Lr t%euld.
",au uu nod fuo,per.!'
11 Mr. MAATII4 rupported• the audios*.

N .1 7% t!.

.
Mr. MACD411.11.15 eomplimentesi the bio'ile Lord
(Norinaulie) foe the vigour with which he returned
to the che•ge, now that the Miuisiers had had
ru epoortrinagaiteolleciing the sentimerits of their
country friawds; Which they might Irani from the
speech of the Hon. Member fur Yorkshire, as to.the
• lilw,4644,eu.siltiala the coutinuaree of this Deelees
(Ace was received by an imligns.J people, he was
noxious to hear how the Ministeio woold now rit-
.poem themselves. The Right Ron. Gentleman who
sapernitenderithe Woods and Forests hid given this
Howe a speech, nearly
.the whole of which was
■ defence of himself from n charge of tileoissist-
ency in a Committee. He asked, *hat would be
dime should one Postmaster be sheen+ ? But if the
system of duplicate were perai•ted in as to the Pest-
office, he (Mr. Meculoneld) knew not .any office
which should be excepted. fie 111141111 a•k what
responsthibry there was attaching to the terse Porte
masters? Were they public accountants? Did they
gore security? He begged the fluter to recollect
the ground* on which this office had been drfa uled.
ea
part of the pitivtiage of the Crown, sod as such
the Noble M•rquia would not consent to touch it.
This was a doctrine quite novel in that Hover; it
Ins not l.rnachrd whet, Mr. Burke or Mr. Dun-
niug made their motions; it was s doctrine irrecuil-
ctlabk with the Coustitelion, and would give au.
overpowering weight to the Cmwu. lie culled
upon the Treasurer of the Navy, who spoke e
short time ago of the painful duty which he had
haul to perform in dismissing some of the clerks if
his office, to stand up and defend, if he could, this
duplicate Postmaster. The Noble Mn gulo had
frequently in his mouth the phrase 4• a welt-um-
der•tood economy ;" he should like to he informed
whet mesiiiing the Noble Lord had attached to it.
It reminded him of the hoes of fitulitirus-
4. Nut bud timely, or good,
Bat merely sail. andermood."
On the subject of the iiilhieoce of the Crown, it
was sufficient to shew that it was prep.+seron•ly
large to reutind the House that sixty-fire millions
passed ammully through the hands of the Execu-
tive, and that in the collet:null of the revenue
4,150,000 f. was annually expended, and this, be-
sides the army, navy. and tniscelleneous, amount.
tog to thirteen millions more. With this eaten-11"e
source of corruption at command, it teas an insult
to the understanding to talk of motimmiiiig the In-
fluence of the Crown by keeping up this useless
office.
Mr. Moan' said lie shoul•l have been prepared
to have voted fur the Noble bird's motion if the
Hon. bleinber for Clore Castle hail made out she
office of second Postmaster to he a mere sinecure,
but of that be had mot given en iota of proof ; so
far from it, during tile loot year 2,000 Reports were
referred to them, and their opinions nimuted on
them ; besides 1,800 warrants fur the payment of
money hid
,been passed slid examined by them ;
sod was each a 'dare to be considered as a slat-cure ?
Besides, wheu the enormous petrou■ge of these
skinflint's were considered—Meer, must
surely be eonsitlrrori more expedient that Oak re-
spon►tbilitJ should be divided instead of reetiug an
one permit.
Lord A. Hallit,lll/1 aside that after the state-
ment of the Mu. Meaihe► who had just Mt down,
lie would merely remind him otiose single fact, ond
meld ark him for what length of time Lord Chili-
catty, when one of the Joitit Pmtrilassere. was eb•
skit ? Mr (tort k. Hamilton) believed it was ,
for shout two 'MY. Ile put it' to the Honourable
Member whethe► that w.. mot a sufficient answer
to hisuatvalteat ?

Mr. MONIItY said. it fact were soloed admit-
;jog that It wave ah eihisSe—ETire Hon. Meruirer
was proceeding, hut was
.Obliged 'o sit down. from
the repetition of the cry. of " Spoke ! spoke !")
Mr. MAR•VIIMO sold, that if he were to farm
the Post-office he world rather give 1040001. a year
for the suprrintetideue of two such flonottrable
persons as the Posiroastt4s General, who from their
characters most give satiates:non to die country,
then have one only at 2.500 i. a year.
Lord Nottill'ers briefly replied. He said he
bold have Jbersar conteLt to have left the question
en the coetreei4eti.n of the moments of mu-night
with these formerly employed. It was not, he said,
simply • question of reducing the influence or
the Crown, but it world odd, if his motion weir
refused, another ioatuote to thieve already given,
where a Minister of this Crown had expostn the
chyraeter of ilast House to the odium of the people.
The Hoarse then divides.. when there appeared
For t.ord Normaalli'a woman,
Ageism it

Majority arriest Mittiosers.... lb
The ntinotiuvrinrnt of the decision was received
with mitnenve dirernne.
The other (triter. of the Div were then disposed
of, and die House edjouroen et Twelve u'Clock.

THE BANK OP ENGLAND.