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London, England, 1825-04-22 00:00:00

that I wish to say a few words upon the subject. The case now
to be decided is entirely different from what it would be under a
hew government. Whether or not there should be a church esta-
blishment connected with the State might then be a question to be
decided by the form of goverment existing, but with us there can
arise no such gaestien. A monarchrial governmer; required a
church! in connexion with the State; a republican cue might dis.
Pena: with it, as the case of America, We found the Church of
lhoete one in a state of power, and arguing the question I, priori.
I should say the members of that Church must view the
Protestant Establishment with natural jealousy, and in. such
light an to render them unfit to legislate fur its interests. It
ir, Sir, in my opinion, safer to exclude the Catholic from power
and place than to call upon him to take a long oath by way of se.
entity. It is on that priuriplc we have disqualified Revenue Of-
ficere and Clergymen from sitting in this !louse, because they were
under an undue influence. (Hear) Recollection of events and
history must have their effects on the mind ; and when I see such
men as Mr. Charles Butler retaining undue prrjudlaes. I cannot
think it safe to admit the Roman Catholics into State offices. The
name of Dr. Doyle has been connected with this discussion, and I
do not well know how to reconcile his evidence before the Committee
on the State of Ireland with his previous writing.. If Protestants
feel alarmed by the Doctor's publications, it cannot be a matter of
surprise that they utter sentiments of alarm. lam told, indeed, of
religious animosities in Ireland, and that the measure in question
will remove them. But the Hon. Gent. opposite (Mr. Brougham)
has told the House on a former evening, that the more religious estab_
lishments approximate, the more bitter is their hatred. (Hear.)
He has further, Sir, informed us of the miseries and contentions
gerdered by the difference of a single kter. and the blood spilt
on account of the distinction between Homoiousian and flemoou-
sian. The House and the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
may rely upon it, that if they superadd to the religious animosities
already existing between Protestant and Catholic, the additional es.
citement of rival Chinch Establishments, the hatred will be abund.
antly augmet teal. Dr. Doyle, after many other observations, asserts,
that the Roman Catholics are merely ',offered to exist as religionists.
He goes on to say, that the Catholics give their sweat and toil
to those who forge their chains, that they offer their hay and corn
at an altar which they deem profane (cries of hear, hear, hear) :
these are the words of Doctor Doyle—that they still are
obliged to support their former parish Chapel, which stands as a
monument of the right of conquest, and of the power of law over
equity and piddle good (hear, hear). Further in this book we find
that Dr Doyle, eider enumerating the manifold and grievous
heart-rending evils to which the Catholics are subjected, says the
Church Establishment is the greatest of all : the Catholics, he
says, are obliged to ray tithes and church rates to that Church,
which, a ith a whip like a scorpion's tail. drew their blood, and bad
to contribute the bread of their l'amishitig children to the mason and
his rapacious followers (hear, hear.) They haste to buy bread
and! wines for the Citurch, to pay the sexton and parish clerk, be-
tween whom finally their very clothes are divided (a laugh),
so that the) cam ;lies cast lots for their garments. I shall, Sir,
not pursue the opinions or the assertions of Dr. Doyle farther, but
apply myself more immediately to the question before the House.
I hope, Sir, I shall be excused for stating objections which I con.
acientioualy entertain, and which are the result of mature consi-
deration. I shall come at once to the preanible of the Bill, and
state my reasons for believing the Church Establishment in danger.
This is my conviction, though my Honourable Friend the Member
for Armagh (Mr. Brownlow) thinks otherwise. I war not with
the Catholic religion farther than it affects our Constitution.
I am peratuuled of its illiberality, and while such is my con-
viction, I shall ever oppose its incorporation with the State.
(Hear.) It is not their tioctrne of transubstantiation, as a religious
tenet, that I object to. My Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning)
says, we have others such as consubstantiation ; but, Sir, we are
not now legislating about one or the other, nor do we adopt the
disclaimer of that doctrine as a qualification for admission into of.
lice from any objection to it in a religious point of view. We
merely call on the Catholics to disclaim the doctrine, as the bast
means we have o'aecertaining their religious feeling; if any other
means equally efficacious could be hit on, I, for ono, have no ob..
*don to adopt it. If it weee possible that we could ascertain the fact
by simply—are you a Catholic, or are you not ? I would vote
for he adoption ; but, Sir—and I will speak it openly—there are
doctrines of the Catholic Church which, in my mind at least, hare
a disqualifying effect. There are, I say, doctrines of that Church
which influence the temporal acts of its members. (Hear, hear.)
I am free to admit that, in the progress of enlightenment, the
Catholics as well as others have improved. I am free to admit that
the Catholics have, in common with Protestants, become more li.
beral in their views, and lust many of their prejudices in that
change. (Hear, hear.) Still these doctrines remain. I take them
not from books, hut as they were admitted before the Committee b
their Bishops and others. And first, without going further, I think
that a sufficient reason for not admitting them to a participation in
the State is their doctrine of confession. (Hear, hear.) 1 feel, Sir,
great regret, that there should exist, among any class of men, a
doctrine to astounding, as that if an individual inform another
of his ietcn ion to commit a murder, the person so informed
dare not warn the man to be murdered f his danger. (Hear, hear )
I also admit. Sir, that there are doctrines of the Church perhaps
liable to objectien for their spirit of exclusion. I acknowledge
the force of what my Right Hon. Friend (31r. Canning) says of
the Creed of St. Athanasins, though I must declare that my Right
Hon. Friend used no small degree of sophistry in the line of argu.
talent he adopted: but, Sir, I ask him, what in the practice in
the Protestant Church ? hew is it acted on ? (hear, hear). We have
also our doctrine of Absolution. Is not the practice in the two
Churches, however, widely different? J dread, Sit, the con-
struction which the illiterate peasantry put on the doctrine
of Absolution, particularly when they are not allowed to
to look into those Scriptures which expose its fallacy (cheers); thin
comes the doctrine of Indulgences, and the influence it must have
on the practical conduct of men. For my own rsrt I don't under_
staid it, nor has the evidence of Dr. Doyle satisfied me on the sub-
ject. He says, that now iedolgences cannot be granted for more
then seven scars: but whether for seven veers or forty days,
the doctrine was equally unintelligible. Many Honottrable Mem-
bers have said, that granting to the Catholics emancipation will
have the effect of quieting all animosities, and putting nn end to
controversial acrimony. Sir, I think that measure, by nesting a
rivalry, would have the effect of exciting religious animosities,
which we have hitherto mainly avoided by giving to one a presi-
dency ever the other. I sin asked, Sir, what are we now to do ?
' Can we remain as we are, or are we to re-enact the penal code? I
say decidedly not. I have, Sir, as great a disposition to listen to
the just complaints of the Catl:olics—whenever I hear a complaint
as to the administration of justice, I was and will always be ready
to remove it. I believe I may appeal to my past conduct if I have
ever been favourable to any societies hostile to the esthetics. It
was because I felt so, that I differed from the Member for Armagh,
(Mr. Brownlow) when he stated he was tat Orangeman. I always
lamented the existence of such Associations. Their existence wes
cited as a proof of the necessity of granting Catholic Emancipation.
One ground of asking for it was removed. The Catholics, Sir,
will not be satisfied with what they now ink :--grant but these, and
future concessions must follow. Great dissatisfaction has been ex-
cited amongst the Catholics by the rejection of the present measure,
or rather of measures of a similar tendency et former periods. 1,
Sir, ant not accountable for the feeling I never encouraged ;
hopes which I felt could not be realized. I ant convinced the
greatest portion of that discontent results from the disappointment
of hopes excited—excited too in a great degree, I ant persuaded, by
the debates in this !louse. The Cathodic question, Sir, has always
been used as the weapon against alinietere ; it was treated as a
party question, and the discussions on it conducted in a manner
calculated to do much harm. (Hear, hear.) I fear, Sir, I have
trespassed too lung on the patience of the )louse, bttt I feel I would
not be discharging my duty if I did not make one remark as to the
history of chit, question for the last ten yerrs, and 11101%; particularly
as to the securities offered on the ant of the Catholics. The first is
the veto; and where is the Protestant siste that has not adopted
some such precaution on the appointment of the minietees of the
Catholic religion ? ll'hat say the Cade hes to this--" You dissent
from us in religion; shall we commit td-, our management what you
are so much incanted in subverting." To return to the subject of
securities, when in 1021 his Right lion. and Learned Friend brought
in his Relief Bin, with such securities, as lie thought indis.
pensible; now we found all done away with, they are growing—
" Small by degree', and beautifully less."
(A laugh.) Now they are below zero., (laughter,) hut. Sir, I ob-
ject to these securities ; I would prefer passing the Bill at once on
the principle cf confidence to retaining these futile se:artifice.
What, Sir. are the duties of this perpetual Commission ?—one is
to advise the Crown ; and here let me remark, that the Crown has
no discretion ; it must appoint them whether it wishes it or no ; then
these Conanissioners are to certify of the loyalty of those persons ap-
pointed to Bishopricain !retold. eChat is meant by the word loyalty
The conetraction put unit by DaDoyle, is that every man should be
deemed loyel until convicted before a competent tribunal. Another
duty is to watch over the correspondence with foreign States; thet
correspoadence is already placed under severe restrictions. though
not put into force. I mean not to advocate their revival, but 1
cannot lout feel that the proposed precaution in a mere mockery.
although nay Hight lion. Friei:d might, and has, as the law now
startle, incurred the penalties of a prrrnunire, and subiected him.
self to the punishment awarded by several Acts of Parliement.
But when we have so litany formal objections seleaoced at the pre-
sent tilTle, it is proper that my Right lion. Friend should know that
the correspondence he has carried on is solely by connivance : and
that he, and all those who maintain these comniumicatior it in Eng-
land, are violating the ex ;lass provisions of an Act of Parliament.
I wish now, Sir, before 1 sit down—although I am sensible I
have already occupied the tim • of the House much too long
—to say something upon the subject of the other nwa-
sure which has born mentioned as likely to form a secu-
rity to those who might otherwise be disposed to oppose this Bill.
Sir, I do cot deny that they are very plausible projects, and I hope
I may not be conceived to approach the consideration of it with.
out being fully sensible of its vast importance, or that I have
any intention of naming nay observations against it into an op.
position to the Bill now before us, by any of those artifices a hich
Mr, l'itt would have called efforts of einieter dexterity. If I con-
sider, upon examiration, the aleasures good in themselves, I will
support tht m. without reference to any thir,g cennected with them.
Bia, Sir, while I adroit that, the have relating to alt. freeholds has
given roc to great abuses—while 1 am ready to allow that it has
produced perjury—that it fins a tendency to mete perjuries, and
that it is a great source of corrop:ion. 'Vet I must own, front the
present mete of freeholds both here end in Ireland, that I have very
great objections to any measure which would go to deprive a &ma
fide 40s. freeholder of his constitutional privilege_a privilege
which, be it rentembitretl, is the only political one which descends
I to the lowest classes of the people, and which, therefore, should he
regarded w:, h the greatest delicacy. But even granting that this
' could be don- without injustice, which I do not, still I am by no
means satisfied that raising the qualification, if it is not to be
dole, as I art infornce, until the rhele present raw be exticct,