The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1822-06-20 00:00:00

CORN IMPORTATION BILL.

Mr. ROBINSON mowed the t►ird readies of the CAM 1..
sonatina Bill.
Mr. CURWEN Towle oppose it for the last time. Hewn
of
his former opiate'', that there was moth:og to have Wired
the Committee to lower the Protective price to 79s—it was
stojest to British agrieelleer, sad bad beee a detrimeet to
all eoatroets made since. He did not wish to attack the
fends. Bet he would Drat year endeavour to obtain the se.
quietceace of the House fur oath's that properly rateable
for the 'maintenance of the poor as well me lauded property,
upon which that enormous burden now pressed so heavily.
He thowsla that Ifs. duty oe imported areas was net a oaf.
Beige" security. He muv.d that the Bill be read this day
h►rea months.

Mr. BRIGHT thought that it would be a great relief to
egrieuhere tf the capital abut up in warehoused foreign
grain were to be lel out to be 'waded is fresh purchase.
the Eatlish market, which would by that means uthaia
►igher prices.
Mr. WESTERN wished to glee the Bill his Anal maledic-
tion. He was coaviecen that she difficulties of agriculture
would be iocreased by it. He commented on the stale of
Ireland, lanigeishing amidst abundance. Was it partible
that they toulti thick of euceararimg foreiga ogirolture and
foreign labour instead of Irish agrioaltere and labour.'
There was no want either of food Ile iohabitauts ; t►e land
was overflow in with mill and honey. Why were Ibe people
pour and ►ungry ? Because they could get no eneploymean.
Why could they get uo employment ? Because the im•
purchased state of the other daises was suc► that they
could not keep them at work.
. _ . .

!Or. D BkoWNE said, that the pekes of prottialoo were
as ow io Irelsod ■s he had veer kooarta them. Core was
still I spuritd from Sliro sad Galway two lEaglaad. 1k dtd
awl dread the effects of the Rill on Irish agriculture at all.
The bill was t►ee read a third imitated passed.
TITHES IN IRELAND.

Mr. Palm put it to the Dun. Member (Mr. Daly)
if he would. upon delibei @nun, deem it expedient to
agitate this question at present, slices lie hid
pledges that the subject of tithe commutation was
%tuner the consideration of the inch Govern.
silent—when the decision of the House it that
late period of the Session could be of no snot
—said lie might hive another assurance flow
his Right Honourable Friend near him, that some
motto,, on the subject should be submitted, regime
reason given fur not submitting s motion in the
first week of the next Session.

Mr. DALT felt great difficulty. lie wished to
oblige his Right Honourable Flom!, but hr kit
that he was pledged to the House. He would wi:-
lingly give wuy, if he could receive any ssowsuce
that Ministeis would grant a Committee next yes'.
Having gone so for, he did not know how to recede
except on such a promise.—(Cries of 44 Go on !")
Sir E. O'Batsu thought that it would sidEce
for the preveut to give notice for the first week in
the next Session. especially us the Noble Marquis st
the head of the Irish Government was kuowu to be
in constant deliberation on the subject.
Mr. S. Rict implored his Hon. Friend not to
desist but pursue his motion, as the subject would
not admit of any delay.
Mr. D. liaowns thought differently. sod tt.at
his Hon. Friend (Mr. Dilly) ought to be satisfied
with the pledge of hiving the subject taken iota
conaideration early in the next Session.,
Sir J. NEWPORT said that if the Hon. Member
for Galway gave way, he would immediately take
the subject up, as he war determined to bees the

-eau of Parliament declared epou it before the
close of the Session._

Mr. DAWSON spoke.
The SIMMER& called him to order for going into
the question. the postponement of which was in
discussion.
Mr. Howe wished to know if he would be at
liberty to take up the motion immediately upon
the abandonment of it by the Hon. Member for
Galway.
Mr. BROWN LOW wished to know if the Irish
Repremetation might rest satisfied that Govern-
ment would lend their support to an inqui►y in the
next Session, provided his Hon. Friend withdrew
his motion.
Mr. DALY said, that if he could get any pledge
7rom Government for supporting him in his claim
fur a Committee in the next Session he would with-
draw his motion. otherwise he was so far pledged
to the House that he mast go on. Only let it be
understood that he should not be opposed iu that
motion and he would refrain at present.
Mr. GOULBUIN could only repeat what he had
before averred, that the subject of tithes commuta-
tion had been long under the consideration of the
Irish Government. To this he would add an assu-
rance either ro bring forward a measure at the open-
ing of nest Session, or assign some remelt to the
House for not doing it.
Mr. VElialf FITZGIRALD added his entreaties to
induce his Hon. Friend to withhold his motion.
Mr. C. H (memoir urged the Hon. Member for
Galway to proceed, as the Right Hou. Secretary
could give him no direct assurance of his motion
being acceded to, or of any measure being produced
on the part of Government.
Sir H. PARNSLL thought there could be little
reason for delay, when it was found impossible to
obtain any direct pledge from the Right Hon.
Secretary, aid if he were inclined to give any, there
was still the d,fficolty of having to contend with
the opinion of the Attorney-General for Ireland,
who was directly opposed to the question. So that
whatever pledge the Right Hon. Secretary might
chase to give. all hope was taken away by the de•
claration of the Attorney-General.
Mr. Cri LCIIA FT thought that delay must be use-
less, after all the assurances which had been given
to the House, and forfeited by Secretary after Se-
cretary, though many of them were men of great
talents, sod remarkable for the lore of their coun-
try. He thought the question flagged, probably
from the warn of that powerful ingredient, the de-
clared sense of Parliament, which would certainly
facilitate the measure.

Mr. DALY complained of the embsramment of
his situation. He was under strong pledges to the
Home, and at the same time he was anxious to
oblige his Right Hon. Friend, in whom he had
pest confidence.--(Cries of " Go on!")
Mr. PLusarra had understood that some doubt
existed as to whether the motion should proceed,
which rested with him to explain. His friends did
Noe mere honour than he expected, to attach so
much importance to his opinions. He said now, as
he had said ill along, he did not see his way clearly
as to the adoption of any direct and specific plan
for commuiation of tithes, concerning which no
two merabi!rs were agreed. He did not know bow
• compulsory commutation could be effected with
safety. He did nut say that such a plan was is.
possible. If any member would bring forward
ouch • motion, he would cordially support it. pro.
vided it did not infringe the sacred rights of pro-
perty. If that pledge went for nothing, it must
be because the rights of property were not to be
held sacred.

Mr. CRUM spoke to order. There had been
the longest and moot irregular negociation going
on between official men which he had witnessed in
twenty years of parliamentary life, to determine if
they were to proceed or not. And now the Right
Honourable and Learned Gentleman was going into
the merits of the subject, on the discussion of which
they had not yet decided to enter or not.
The &magas thought that there was nothing in
the practice but what was usual and ordinary in
that House, though, in strictness, it might be wholly
irregular.
Mr. PLONICITT did not suppose that the Ho-
nourable Member wished to deprive him of en op-
portunity for explaining, which he would be wil-
ling to give to any other person. There were no
doubt many things, with respect to tithes. that
night he amended. The oppressive costs of suits
paid by small farmers from whom the tithes were
collected. was • grievance. As these things were
tinder the consideration of Government, and it
might be that • measure would be brought forward
to the next Session of Parliament. Of one thing
he was assured, that, if the Honourable Member's
motion were entertained. it would raise an slam
among the clergy, under the idea that the whole of
the tithe system were going to be indiscriminately
unwired.

Mr. DALT said, after what had fallen from the
Right Honourable Gentleman, as he felt assured
the immure would be beat in the hands of the
Govemment, he thought he should not be doing
justice to the subject it he were now to press it.
Mr. Mina said, that in consequence of the
lion. Member's declining to press his motion, he
would now bring forward the subject of tithes, and
the state of the church in Ireland. He had given
anotice on the subject early in the Sermon, but lied
given way on the suggestiou that his Majesty's Go-
vernment would take up the business. He was
happy that he had given way, though the measures
which his Majesty's Government had proposed were
little commemorate with the evils which were to be
ieniedied, for after all they only proposed that the
whole question should stand over till next Session.
Hr wished to put en end to that state of disquietude
Ireland, which occasioned an expense to this coun-
try of 2,000,0001. per ann. on its military establish-
ment. On looking at the state of Ireland for so
many years put, he was not able to find in the
tithes alone a tillifiCileat C 411114 for the evils under
winch that country laboured. The opinions which
tie had formed, he wouldstate candidly and fairly
to the House. He considered that the whole church
evtablislimeot was the main cause of that disaffec-
tion and inquietude which existed in the country,
and the tithes being the only tangible point, stood
first in the rank of grievances. As to the right of
property in tithes, he would beg to clear the
question, by declaring on that point, that no
man could be more anxious then he to 'noble the
clergy of lrelaod to carry into fall effect those sacred

•
..4• • •
funitions which were itiiPoseel on them by the State, '
but he would protest against their having allow.
mutes .dispcoportionate to the ditties they had !to
perform. The Right Hon. Seretary of State (Mr.
Peel) and the Right Hon. and Learned Attorney.
General (Mr. Plunkett) had stated that tithes were
as much Wrote property as any in the country.
He (Mr. Hume) entirely digitated from that opi-
Mont he considered the property of the church NI
having no ofaffinity whatever to private property. The
church property was, granted to Support the religion
of the Slates and the GovernMent might undoubtedly
make any alteration But thought proper, ekcept
as it regarded vested interests, and he fur one
would never be a party to depriie arty Bishop or
other Clergyman of any income which he might
now possess. In the year 1733 the Act of Ayer.
nsent took place, snd by the Act of Union it had
since been sanctioned by this country, but if that
were a robbery, why had not the Right Honourable
Secretary mud the Attorney-General brought back
that property to the church? But in fact all the
Goversimeuts of the continent have taken upon
themselves to dispose of the church property in
the manner which he should recommend I here
he would contend Bost a church establishment wail
no pert of the Ch 'an religion; slid if the Hesse
were therefore to abolish theta all to-morrow, none
of the rules laid down by the Founder of our reh-
gnus would be abrogated. On this head he hardly
need quote the authority of Paley, who said, " A
church establishment is no part of Christianity : it
is only a mean of inculcating it." The question
then was, fur what purpose was the funds given ?
and then came the question, whether too much or
tou little hail been given ? and he (Mr. Hume)
came to the conclusion that too much had been
given. He came to that opinion on seeing the
number of 34 Bishops for a church consisting
of 500,000 individuals. He would ask if that
formed no part of the disaffection, and whether it
was not a natural consequence when the people saw
so liege a portion of the produce of industry di.
rected to the support of a church which had such
little duties to do, and those inefficiently per-
formed. The next curer of dissatisfaction, in his
opinion, was, the appointment to benefices of per.
sons who were many of them absentees : the man.
nor in which the church of Ireland was served had
certainly created • great MIN of discontent and dia.
satisfaction. Ti,. third cause was the state in which
the Ecclesiastical Courts of the country were.
These Courts were more worthy of the Honourable
Gentleman's (Mr. Goulburn) labours and attention
than the power of leasing tithes which he had intro.
duced. The fourth eau., was the manner in which
tithes were collected. The Hon. Member here cited
some well-known instances of abuse in the collection
of tithe., and *end in the House a letter which he hail
received from the Earl of Glengall, which slated
that the Bishop of Waterford was rector of a parish
in Tipperary, where the population was almost ex-
clusively Catholic. The rents had been lowered
very considerably, in some instances nise-fifth, yet
the Bishop, since last October, had raised his tithes
• 4d. per acre. Another case, which he had verified
on affidavit, was But of Jas. Conway, of Galante:
his tithes were exactly half the value of the whole
produce of his land. Another case was stated
in a petition to the Grand Jury of Galway. Those
persons now paid the same tithe, wheat be-
ing Ss. to 7.. per cwt. which they paid when it
was gst. per cwt. and the Petitioners stated that
they were quite unable to pay their rents, though
they had not been advanced for the last thirty
years. Was this. he would ask, a state of things
which his Majesty's Miiiipters would wish to remain
in Ireland ? It was not an insulated case, for such
cases abounded in Ireland. He thought, after
hearing the statement of the Honourable Member
for Sligo, a man must be &mime of the comma
feelings of humanity who could recommend delay
to Parliament, and he regretted that-the Hon. Mem-
ber (Mr. Daly) should have been induced to with-
draw his motion. It was not surprising that, under
all the circumstances, discontent should prevail ;
nay, when Government would not give redress, it was
the duty of the people to have recourse to the last
resort—resistance.—(Hear.)—He would name his
authority for this doctrine if the Hon. Gentle.
men opposite required it. But experience had
Aeon that from year to year there had been dis-
turbances in Ireland little short of rebellion, and
• there was no man of candour hut what would say the
tithe system had had a great share in causing them,
and it would show an utter disregard for the feelings
of the people for the Government to delay constitut-
ing an inquiry. He would tweak out directly. The
Archbishops and Bishops had not done their duty ; he
would speak nothing that he did not conscientiously
believe, and if he mistook in any thing he might he
corrected. One of the evils complained of was the
non.residence of the clergy, a. an instance of which
the Hon. Member read the correspondence of Lord
Blayney with the Bishop of Clogher and his pa-
rishioners, in which they complained of the want of
a resident Rector, and though Lord Blayney fol.
• lowed up the complaint to the highest authorities.
he was onside to procure any redress. He would
ask the Right Honourable Secretary for Ireland,
what excuse the Government could have for the
• encouraging the abuse of absenteeship ? He called
their neglect of the applications of resident
Gentlemen an encouragement to *het abuse, for
surely nothing could be a stronger inducement to •
Gentlemen to expatriate himself, than seeing misery
which he could not relieve. It appeared by the
returns made to that House, that there were 2,234
perishes, 1,270 benefices, 194 benefices without
churches. There were (and he called the attention
of the [louse to the fact) 763 incumbents resident
out of 1,270 benefices, so that there were 507 non.
residents. Now he would ask any man who talked
of his regard for religion (end there were no men
more ready to cant about it than hie Majesty's
Wasters), whether there could have been so
great a smoother of non-residents. if the Bishops
had done their duty, end whether the Right Huo.
Secretary would not have been better employ-
ed in remedying this abase, than in his paltry
measure of leasing ? It was a perfect mockery.—
(Hear, hear.)—He would repeat it, the evil was, that
the persons whom the House would authorise to
grant licenses did not do their duty. Even some
Bishops, he had heard, were absent from their
dioceses for 40 years I How was such conduct to
promote the cause of religion? Having stated the I
facts of collectiog the tithes, and the nun-residence
of the clergy, by world now come to the state of

• • t k- • im .1
tb..l4llllfale It appeared troth ritormoo‘d. to that
House in. pursuance of an Address tibia N,,jasjr.
in May 11110. that of the 1,0270 incumbents, at
only had returned 'mowers to the queries sent to
theist ; but if • Committee were rutted questions
might be framed; end the whole subject ecrtild be
brought fully before Parlisinent in the next Session. I
It appetites! that Ireland contained 18 millions of
English acres, and the property belonging to the
church was 2-1 lths of tht whole. Tht income of
the Bishops was larger thou the clergy of the whole
Continent of Europe ; for
:example, the estates of
the Bishoprick of Armagh, which produced new
15,0001. • year, according to the calculation of Mr.
Wakefield, ate rock rent would be worth lio,oool.
,
or 150,000/. a year. How was that Repot sum
disposed of? It was granted to the relations and
friends of the Bishops in constant soceresinri,
(Hear.)-=This he would prove if he were allow-
ed, and that the income arising from the sees alone
would be aufficient,to support the whole church of
Irelaud, both Catholic and Protestant.• There woo
nothing extraordinary in whet be proposed to do,
for England end Ireland were the only countries in
Europe where 1-10th of the produce of the land was
taken for the support of the clergy. But its his
opinion the clergy of Ireland were overpaid. He
disclaimed the priuciple that the chorch was td be
maintained es s au psmort eel the gesimesumemt. A peer...
ment whiCh could not exist without a• church ought
not to exist at hear.)—He begged the
Honourable Gentlemen who cheered would not
imagine that he was for having no church ate.
blishment. The Honourable Member then gave
the state of tithes in the different countries of Ea.
rope. In Tuscany the Grand Duke Leopold had
set aside the funds of the Jesuits in order to abo-
lish
tithes, and as the incumbents dropped off,
the tithes were abolished for ever, their succes-
sors taking a salary out of the appointed fund,—
Now, if the property elouging to the sees of Ire.
laud were so extensive as represented, he did
not see why we should not adopt that means of
paying the clergy. In France en Archbishop had
only 8001., end a Bishop 6001. a-year ; not that
he meant to propose similar sums for our Bishops.
The money which that House was coutinually
voting for glebe houses, they would be usrprised to
hear was riot given to perishes without funds, but
to parishes which had sufficient. As an instance
of the misapplication of the funds of the church, it
appeared from the returns that Sir Thomas Forster
had three livings, was besides master of Carysfort
school, and hail several hundred acres of glebe; the
Hon. Charles Knox hail two livings and some hun•
dred acres of glebe; the Hon. Spencer Knox had
three rectories. All these Gentles.n were, if he were rightly
isfeeresed, living no the Contineet with their families. He
begged pardon of the Howse for having detained them so
Wag. Be appealed to the Hon. Member, who had heard the
former diaireseme, whether something would sot be expected
is Ireland to be dose; sail if the Parliament should for
that purpose sit a moot Is longer, it would be their duty to
de it. He wished the House to go taro a fall inquiry, 'hooch
be would propose, bad he the pewee, that no change should
take place till arum die death of the reseal iecoeseet. He
coacleded by moving a Itenalotioa—
" That the Howes shoold,esely its the next Seniors, inspire
ion° the state of the Church in Irelatid, aid the 111111•11 s. Is
which tithes are collected there, with a view to asakiog each
&twenties as they may me At."
Mr. ELME said be nee with pleasure to second the
metiers of tea Hoe. Priced. He was impressed with the
necessity of somethiiig being dune with a view te coacili-
ming the Irish people, knowing that he should be called
before toeg to re-enact that odious law, the losurreetion Act,
sad though he should have given the preference to the
motien of the Hosourable Geatleasse (Mr. Daly), as
beteg more limited Mao that of his Honourable Priced,
yet be was prepared to go the fall kngth of the latter.
According he a retorts oa the table of the Howse, it appeared
that the number of tithe ands in one covet, (Galway) in one
year had amoveted to so less then between six sad *eves
and forty thousavd.—(Hear )—He would ask any Hos.
Member, whether if a system of tithe collection so °ports.
eive sad vexatious, as to give rise to so any cases of resist.
mace, were nowise °penitent in any comely so England, Kest,
er Barmy, fur iestasice, that House would sot have felt it tit.
numbest oo it to adopt some legi.lative measure for the
removal arm intolerable • grievaree ?—(Hear.)—The people
of England, he was couldn't, world Brener bare submitted
to the condiment* of such a syinens.—(Hear,
This was the °sly Government ender which that oppressive
system mattered to be 'adored. It had beta got rid of ie
other countries ;—sad by what means? By each as he herd
sever le see resorted to in this eismstry;—by, lemma, the se.
enmity of which he hoped to see averted by timely removal
of the shows of the system—(Hear)—by the mesas of re-
eoletton.—(Hear, bear!)—He was sure that by degrees they
might arrive at such • settlemeut of this guesttoe, as would
be satisfactory to the country at large, sad sot meet the
disapprobation of any great number of those who had a pro.
pray is the tithes. He begged pardon for having so long de.
tinned the HOOP* epos this subject; but he had been ie.
deiced to step (missed as se English Member of that Horse
to support the motion of has Hon. Friend (Mr. Heme), is
order to skew the Centime's of belied that the fretless of
this coral., were not dead so the interests of !relied.
Mr. D. BROWN Ecautiooed Gent lemeo who, for the inter.
sets of Indeed, would advocate a general thentesetatiou of
tithes, bet deprecated erecting it by rrudatiossry
against introducing it with revolutionary epees-U.9.—(H6er.)
—He estertained the gr,stein respect for the church esta-
blishment of Scotland, sad believed it to base wrought
the best moral effects on the people of that cavalry,
bet he had never before understood it to be ie the
contemplation of any toms is that Hoses to change
the prevent church establishment of ketosis, for are
of • similar construction, as he most conclude to be the
ultimate object of the Honoemble Gentleman's (Mr.
Hasse) emotion, from the tanour of the speeds with which he
bad introduced it. H. called, therefore, on the Irish Gen-
Hemen present to vote against the motion of that Hoe. Mem-
ber. If the measure which had already been introduced (that
of Mr. Guulbere) should not, as he hoped it would, prove
the stepplog•alooe to a naessere is the next &ileitis for a
general commutation, be (Mr. D. B.) pledged himself tires to
bring forward a measure for effecting that object.

Sir J. NEWPORT said, is offering what he was about
to propose, the Right Hon, Gentlemen who had just sat
down would do him the justice to believe that be was at-
tested by as sincere a desire to promote the imrests of his
country, and by as purr a muse of what was due to it.
fare, as the Rig►t Hon. Gentleman himself. He objected to
the reliance which that Right Hon. Geetlemen inculcated,
laposi the promises sad intentions of Ministers wit► respect
to the subject Osw before them, because be remembered that
Ave or six year* ago, the Noble Lord, thee and now, at
the heed of the Cluvrroment, stated in the ether House, that
the subject was wader the consideration of Gust remorn*, aid
that a memo" was in preparation which he hoped would
shortly be brought before Parlisineet, having fur its beats
an equitable commortation of the tithes ; fur he had reason
to believe that the principle of cereneetatiee, though perhaps
not applicable in England, might be found perfectly suitable
for adoption to Ireland. Could there thee, be world ask,
be any coalidence now reposed in the premises of the •acre
Goverommit, of belaying the subject forward in the
next Session Was et Attie', eta the presto' state
of Ireland, after measurer of coercion had We■ call-
ed for—after they had been acquiesced in—after t►ey had
beep probes seed *ternary to repress disturbance. w►tc►
it was on all baud. admitted bad arisen eat of this
very How system—was it Ailing that Parliastest should
separate wittiest expressing some derided opining es ibis

I.
'object ! With reepeet to nit eighties ait had new been
brought before the House, he bedbo wish livid: op witb it
extenoeous topics which were not necessarily 'connected with
its coesidenatioe ; bat doable havieg bees expressed as to the
truth cud justice of the complaints •bovi the noneesideace of
the clergy, he felt It necessary to ogees few words epos that
'object. He had them before Mee • Petition which he himself
had presented to the House ea the 3lst of Blenheim the Pro.
lethal inlsablisats of two parishes in the toasty of Mayo,
complaining that a Geier of those parishes had remedy takes
place *mkt episcopelentliority, aid that so greet was the
easiest of the united perishes,: that they were prevented by
the distance from impeding their proper place of worship.
The extent to which these unions of parishes had been car.
vied was most 01101M01114 'There weep glebes of 6,000 acres,
of 1,600 acres, and of 1,400 acres, which bad me glebe
house attached lo them. That was contrary to the Act of
George 11. die fogad an inctenst of 1,400 scree of glebe,
a pluralist living on • 'kb, of App acres in another perish.
He "mold sot dee, that its softest the dioceses ceesidenible
improvement bad takes place since 1607; but it was equally
undeniable that • great usembee of unitise of perishes had
Icon 'Ceded within that period. Even so late as the year
1616, the powers of the Lord Lieutesiant had bees exercised
in that particular. The returns before the House *hewed
that early in the list century Abe ausehe of lathed and slim
united parishes was even; bet since that period, as the
covetry had adesimed in tillage, sod the population
iscressed, the naldberof sailed parishes had become grei,
end that of the dieenited parishes imeorgeeetly dimid
He found by the rehires Iva vicarages united with Owe
rectories In the diocese of Kilialue. la one instance the
parishes se united formed a district of sevinten mike (be
diameter as we endentood). That was one of the 'elk
complained of in the preamble to the Act .of 2 Otsego 14
which stated that " many parishes were so vast that it wed
wish great difficulty that Ilk parialtiosers could attend the
parish church, aid return house is the same day."—
Au Honourable Friend of his had leavened over the
whole diocese of Chanty to make • survey, in order to
compare the &vital state of the diocese, with Bishop Po-
cock's report; and he found that Meet the death of that
prelate, the Protestant population of the diocese had dm
created in the properties of two-fifths, while the general pa.
potation had km eased more than double. Such was his
coariminis of the necessity, fur the itititl of the peace sad
tranquillity of Ireland, that this sehrit of she church
establishment and the tithes should undergo • speedy and
thorough consideratiom with • view to the removal of the
osistiog grievances arising out of the system, that be
should move an amendeteet, pledging the House to orb
early cousideratioe of the 'object in the meat Session, with
• view to a fair sled equitab;• commetatios.—(Hear.)—
Whatever other per Naught have doom be should propos
this with no view to spoliatloo--be shmild leave spoliation
to the Union Parlisaseet.—(Cbtera.)—He fotiod it recorded
apse the Journals of the proceedings of that Parliameat. that
LO•WO was given to bring in a Bill to bk. •II outlying
chines for tothm"—(Chems,)—and that she said Bill was or.
derrd to be brought is by Lord Vittoria Casitermigh— (hear,
and laughter)—Mr. Attoraey•General,Mr. Solicitus.Generali
aid Mr. Prime Berjeaet ; that the mid Bill was brought is
android • Gest time en the 16th March ; that it wits reed a
woad lime se the illst March ; and that oft the 31st March,
it was read a third time, mid pasted, mid ordered to be ear.
rind to the Lords. When skis subject was seder discussion
of a kenem 'veiling, the Noble Lord opposite (Londonderry)
said he hoped that he (Sir J. Newport) did mot hotrod to
beach ape* the church property. New he .Held ask who.
they that was a gaieties to come from that Ruble Lord, who
had himself made so 'seeping as invasive of she church
property In the Bill to which he lied jest alluded' Was such
a gaieties lo be put by the mover of that Bill, to his whit
proposed to give • fill and fair equiv. lea, fur the tithes which
he would have them lunge! He was not therefore sa advocate
for spohatiom though his Right Hoe. end Learned Priced
opposite (Mr. Plunkett) bad charged it apes him, because
he world ant make any allowance for donate, elitism.—
(Hear.)—He wool/ ask, how it could for a enchneot be sup.
posed that they were to be obliged to give • compensation fur
tithes that had sever bees mild, sad that it Was sot she cus-
tom to collect t Wee it optimise to refine tenipetifttioe
for that which had hitherto sewer bees claimed ! For the
safety aid permanence of the church itself, he would give
a composition each as would mown to • full equivalent
for villas it had hitherto bees tossed to receive,
sad is such • way as would contribute to establish the per.
=anent peace sad tranquillity of the country. Thinking as
be did that the peace of the country was at stake, sad con-
, Meted as he was that unless they deft. seised to remove this
intolerable grieverce, they most be prepared to meet the
dreadful alternative of prolongiag the catmint disturbances,
sod perpetuating the irritation and angry feelings which it
excited among a popolatioo of 7.000,000 of periwigs, who had
been deceived is she expectations and promises held out to
themes the fruits of the Union, of an iskotilkation of the
&rheas and interests of the two revelries, and as menthe.
lion Grebe tithe system, which should have the effrei of eons*.
lidating the interests of the Established Church with the
peace and tranquillity of she coveity, be should conclude
by moving as an amendment, % TIM with • view so steer.
ing the tranquillity sod happiness of Ireland, this House
will, early in the next Reesios, she the subject of the col-
lection ohithes, as affecting that pert of the Veiled King.
dem, into its serious consideratioe, with a view so substi-
tuting fur the present reclines/ and vexatious mode of
mipportieg the church establishment, a full and fair "qui:
Talent."

Mr. GOULRURN said, if he was compelled to dissent
from the motion of the Right Hes. Strout!, it uas ouly
Incases be ceased/Ted that motion as likely to produce el
frets prejudicial even to that measure w►ich he wished to
forward, and as altogether recalled for. He would sot ea.
ter into the discussion of the question, how far it might be
possible to come to a satisfactory artangemeat of commute.
boo. To any plan founded os the principle of a fair coma
pensatioa to the Church establishment fur the interests
which it was required to forego, he fur one could nut hare
any indisposition to accede. But the Heine was not i■ a mi.
nation to judge of the expedierny of commutation, because
the allure of t►e measure which it was intended to propose
for that purpose was not before It. He was opposed to the
system of pledging Parliament to the conduct which it
would pursue on any particular subject its • futon, Session,
because such pledges seldom led to any satisfactory result.
And •apposing this motion of the Right Ho.. &reset to be
carried, sad that the measure which be should brims
forward next Session to cumplete his well.oneast
teotions should t►em be found unsatisfactory, slid deemed
impracticable, be would ask, what would be the effect in
tranquillising the minds of the people of Ireland, of t►us
dashiag from their lips the cup of expectatius which this
rstatioa would have raised ? He could assure the Right
Hon. Baronet that every doeskins was entertained by the
It ish Government to remove such evils, arising out of the
lecoorenient union of parishes as were brought under its
notice ; and iu the only ease which had bee* Weight under
►is cousideration, the Lord Lieutenant bad directed the
parishes concerned to be disunited. In objecting to the gross
to the moms of parishes and non-resideore ads clergy, great
injustice was in many cases dose to the megabertof OM body.
He was ready to admit, as s pineal principle, that a union
of parishes was as abuse, sod that sou residence was as evil.
But it oriels happened that by unitise two parishes, advs.-
tages were secured to both, which neither (veld otherwise
have possessed. The Husourable Member for Aberdeen had
correctly d the number of bewellees and of reside's ia-
cumbests; hut be was by no mesas borer out is his is-
liereocee of abuse is the noes-residence of the remainder. If
be refereed to ire return, he would dad 47 elergymes, red-
disc is the perishes adjuiaiag to their own. There was so-
other class she were uonovsidessi from age Lad infirmity ; sad
others, from a variety of causes—some censurable perhaps
—some more or less enlist, and stagy altogether id
able. He was ready to admit that actiocatidence es. in most
easel an incouvesiesce, sod generally as evil; but in mssy
instances, as far as regarded the lusinoctios of t►e people,
the residence of the curates would be fuuud to be equally
effective. With respect to t►e stetson of the Hun. Member
fur Aberdeen, to follow him through t►e whole course of his
speech would be to detain t►e House too loag. Maay of the
ealcelatieue tif that Hos, Member he could undertake to say
were arrestors' many of hie *talesman he (Mr. G.) item
to be at transact with the fact; and others he was
pelted to believe were greatly exaggerated. He bad rassielia
ad every class of society iu search of testimony Is 11111110,1
of his *mimesis. He hod commenced wit► an Hool, and

• •
elided with a eollseer, al wherein to hear him out in hie
i Charge' against the clergy of exactios •in the esforeteg of
their tithes, when it was oemitted on all hands that they re..
• ceived much lees than their doe. With moppet to she cam.
stated from the letter of • Noble Earl agaimet the Biebop of
Waterford, he believed the Hon. Member would led, if he
Welk the pains teptaq•ire, that the lithe is 911111140111
I to a charity of which the Bishop wee the /link truster.
He did Dos mean to impute to the landed Gesilernee say
ensue desire to exact exorbitant real; but he had foiled, se
' fee es his ismoiries had goo., that the redoetios of tithes
Illways kept pace with the Inwerisg of mots. The Hon.
Member denhd that the once\ bad buy right of property in
the tithes. Hut he (11e.(?welbers) would wisiutain that it
bed such a right, sad in behalf of his °piglets be might cite
the authority of the Ant lawyers, is the COUltify, living sad
dead, in and out of .Paeliantent, who had had the subject
soder their considemilien; as/ the Hoe. Member would ac-
quit. Wm of any want of regret or civility towards him, if he
declined to accede to his, new-fatigled acetates in °eon-
'Mien to such rove authorities. He gave the Honourable
Member for Abeeders .credit for petting the clergy of
Eoglaod es the testing of thou Is Seutlood; but he ought
to have comeldered the great centrist between Ne two
countries. Aeeordieg to what the Honourable Member pro-
posed. he would only give out Archbishop 5001. a year--
Mr. HUM :germ No, no; 5,000/. year."
. Mr. GOULBURN—If the property of the chore% wee
to be allseked, as the Hamoutable Member proposed. for
haying large posseesiose, would sot the psupertY of others,
baying large posseeliose, hit also attacked, the Doke, the
Marmots, sod the Earl? If they attempted to reduce the
propene of the chipreb, it would be doing away with all shot
was desirable is society. He would not troulitil the Howse
lomger, bet ha thought thely world sot, be found many who
would support either the proposition of the Hos. Member
or that of the Hon. Baron t,
Sir JOHN NEWPORT etplained.
Mr. DALY said, when he looked at the distresses of Ireland
heihought the measure proposed by his Majesty's Govern-
'sent was not an adequate relief, and it had bees declared
by the late Mr. Perceived, that it mold tier., be carried Oslo
effect. He folly greed with the motion of the Hos. Baro-
net, and with every word that hail fade. noon hon. The
question issiieleettier the people et Inked would be more
saliskeil Pith the pledge of his Majesty's Gorerenteet, or
that of Parliament, sod there could be nu doubt bet they
world rely more on the latter.
Mr. SPRING RICE laid, that Mr. P I bad given
as large • pledge as that offered by the Right Hon. Seestiery
for Ireland withuiit having redeemed his pledge, sad a
pimplier pledge had bees given by Lord Maryborouxh with
the sense cousequeeces. He was tioavireced if may thine
world satisfy the people of Irelased it scald be
thit of Parasitical giving • pledge that they would
iemeire Into the subject of tithes; and if they did not
give that pledge, it world be holding out that any
rommelatlon would be • scourge that did not give the full
tithe on potatoes, it would be calling me the English Meta.
hers to reels, a measure that would be the means of potting
Ireland is • state of quiet. It had bees said by the Right
Hon. Secretary for Ireland that the tithes had Whip with the
rents ;it was so such thug—it was nut what the clergy re-
totted that was compleiceil of, but what the middle men ex-
acted. He had no doubt if Pm liament threw cold water on
this subject, bet every couusy, city, and beratet, would
potties for a consrautaliou of tithes. He for one would
prefer a pledge of Parliament to that of soy Addilelstration,
sad be celled for that pledge now.
Mr. PEEL said, that the Titration was not that of cum-
inutatios of tithes maw, but whether Parliameet would
millet into • pledge that they would go Into an Inquiry next
Bessie* on the subject. He objected to that pledge; for if
they weal into that inquiry, and the result was not favour-
able, it would only disappoint the people of Ireland and
cause disturbance. He objected to any Fledge of one
Session for whet moodier Session of Parliamarit would do;
they ought to avoid pledges that might nut be redeemed.
He had been six years cossetted •ith sad had given
the subject his fell coasideralloa, hut he found insuperable
obstacles is skeeter the system. He would sok would they
dispossess the elergyease of hie eight which his fortiearasese
hod prevented him from exacting, and give the man wed
had exacted the full teeth complete remseeration ? On-
those grounds it was that he opposed the proposition of
the Right Hoe. Beromet,
Mr. BROUGHAM said, Who understood the Right Hoe.
Secretary who had jest sat doss, he memo to say that be
would nut agrrr to • pledge of the House, hut that Mi-
Dialers dodos the recess would consider the subject, sod in
the next Sessions Niteroi them of the result of that consider-
sties. He would not pledge himself that they would bring
in e Bill for the commutation of tithes; thee the result
would be that they could do nothing, which was all that had
been done for the last thirty years. The very reason of the
subject barium been before Parliament for the lest 30 yearn,
was why he (Mr. Brougham) wished for the pledge, as be did
not want it to he 30 years more before them. Os the question
of the Slave Trade, s pledge had bees gives by that House wed
redeemed, and why sot is this instance? They had so choice,
far that something most he done to remedy the evil, was as
clear as the outs at sous day; the state of bellied called for it.
Then why hesitate at giving a pledge, when it was scheme.
hedged that a change must take place for the protection of
the clergy and the people of Ireland, and they owed the
pledge to them foe the missy years of snes.government in that
country.
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said, that be could assert ow the part
dike Irish Members, that they only sought inquiry. There was
no man who bad heard the statement of the Hue. Member for
Aberdeen hut woul.l see there were great grievances, and
there could he no danger in the Howse of giving • pledge
that they Would go into the inquiry; if the) did not, the
danger would be, that it would he supposed that the Honor
was led by the Ministers.
Mr. PLUNKETT said it wu not his wish to detain the
Homer at that late hour. He, however, could not but say
that the amendment proposed by the Right Honourable
Baronet was premature and dangerous, for it went to soy
that au measure was intruded to be proposed on the subject,
when three was a Bill to the effect before the House which
had not gone through its second stage, and he was convinced
that the
as • boon by Ireland. It was • drAnite measure, and the
Right Hun. Baronn t had not proposed one, he only culled ow
the House to pledge themselves so inquiry in the next Session".
He could mot agree to the principles laid dose by the Hos.
Member fur Aberdeen, fur they were those of spoliation
and robbery, which seat to the subversion of properly sad
-rests.-(Hear, bear.)—He would ask, waive the lay improprte
aloes retitled to tithes ? Übe was answered is the affirms-
tire, the clergy were ales, sad this was the system sloe Hon.
Masher for Aberdeen said ought to be ri listed by re
He contended that tithes did not c..nstilate a grievance more
than rents, and if they were to be commuted, It must he by
justice arid conciliations. If the pledge asked by the Right
Hon. Bart. was given, it would excite hopes that sever
might be realized. He was convinced that competing,
commutation could
In log his opinion, he would move the previous question.
Mr. DENIS BROWNE said he would vote for the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman's amendment.
Hr NICHOLAS COLTHURSI' said be would take the
same course, 'we've. he might participate is the setitimeems
of the Right Hon. Baronet.
Colonel TRENCH said, be wee convinced there never
would be peace in Ireland without • el:immolation of tithe.,
sod au cud put to the present imamate of paying the ckegy ;
at the same time he was of opinion that the Guverumest
of Ireland woul.l And the remedy.
Mr. DAWSON mode • fray observations, but in so law a
• tone of voice as to be inaudible is the gallery.
' Sir E. (O'BRIEN said he would support the motion •f
His. Gentleman (Mr. Home). He did nut know whether
there were any thug Is the trammels of office that locked op
the understanding, but Is was very strange that propositions
which appeared simple to hint should seem difficult to tbem.
Mr. R. MARTIN said he wee friendly to the prisciple
of commutation, but although be would pledge himsell he
would not Orrice ethers.
• Mr. HUME replied. The Right Has, the Allem,-
Gemini was ready with the usual cry of " revolution,"
as spoliation.* He detected the moat le his brother's rye
• but be saw not the beam . its his owe. Spoliate** sad rob!
Wry were fine words. He abjured Its pi inciple ou his ogee
pin. He opposed the doctrine that Parliamest could
Met meddle: "Ida church railway. But it was oar

I