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London, England, 1805-05-11 00:00:00

"-Throwserprest“w"- • " ----etesse-erserez
IrelatHd recoritile d.? Were it nit tha.
too much of your Lordships' time would be taken
up, those ads could be read, wherein would be see.
repeated declamations from thew Parliaments of
the goad candua and the loyalty of the Catholic
body of Ireland. Bet I ray be told, all this wa•
true previous to the period of the last rebellion it
Ireland ; that the last rebellion in that Country was
a Catholic (Met and that the Catholics still content'
tainted eith those noxious principles whence that
rebellion sprung. These are assertions that I know
not how to contradia by any logical or matheme
tical proof. However, my Lords, notwithstanding,
I hold a diredly contrary opinion, and which opi-
nion. I trust• shall show to he well Ineaded. In
knottier part of the United Kingdom, any Lords,
it is well known that two rebellions existed, the ob
jilt of Which evidently was to restore a family to
the throne, who were deprived of sovereign power iii
these realms, for their attempts to introduce and
establish the Romaq Catholic religion. At these
periods, my Lords, what was the condua of the
Lids Catholics ? was not their demeanour loyal and
peaceable; and did they not manifest an attachment
to the established Constitution of the country ?
In the American war, even when the enemy
re..-re triumphant in the Channel, and attempts
at invasion every moment expesleJ. was not their
melte% so loyal, so patriotic, that they were
eeen entrusted with arms to assist in repelling
that enemy ? I speak in the hearing of five or six
Noblemen, who were' Lords Lieutenant of Ireland,
and nearly in that of as many Lords who were in the
confidential situation of Chief Secretary in that
country. To them I appeal. I desire them to rise
and state their opinions, whether, while they resided
there, the Catholics of Ireland sheeted the least
marks of disaffeCtion ? The late rebellion did not,
I contend, my Lords, originate in religious preju-
dices, it bad its rise in a very different source; as
also had the recent conspiracy. In the first rebel.
lion, the leaders chose for the appellation of their
followers, that of " United Irishmen," which im.
plied the union of men of different seas. Among
;bele leaders were many Protestants and Non-Catho-
lics. Been the leaders of the late insurreetion de.
dared to the World, that they were Protestants.
lily this, I do not mean to say, my Lords, that it
was a Protestart rebellion, but that it did not
originate in considerations of religion, nor had
it religious obitalts is view. Had that rebel-
lion succeeded, tbes Catholic religion, as well as the
Protestant. in that ccantry, would have been over-
thrown t its obJea was to overthrow the existing Go-
vernment as a monarchy, and to effea a reparation
between this country and Ireland. I must contend,
therefore. my Lords, that the late Rebellion in Le-
land can, in no sense, be fairly canoe a Catholic
Rebellion. The Catholics have repeatedly dis-
claimed, in the most solemn and public manner,
those noxious princie:. • which have so improperly
been laid to their char ; more especially that ex-
ploded dictum of their keeping no faith with here-
Ake, and their belief that the Pope has the power of
absolving them from all oaths. The erred of there
positions would be tantamount to saying, that four
millions of oar fellow subjeas are not to be believ-
ed upon their oaths ; if so, the civil government
of Ireland must exist by a very precarious te-
nure.. This argument of not crediting their oaths,
my Lords, is, however, a very unhappy one for
those who urge it ; for it happens that all these
restrictions depend merely upon the effed of
oaths, which, if the Catholics agreed to take,
would be done away; that of supremacy, for
instance. Why, my Lords, did they believe in the
dispensing power of the Pope. to that extent—they
need only take these oaths, and that Pontiff, were
such his objea, would sooner than others, absolve
tLem (rens that, and, by such means, render him
feartel in countries where Protestant establishments

prevailed. Their Petition, my Lards, contains a
solemn disclaim of all those imputations. Vint
have no well-founded right to assume, that their
priests can or will induce them to violate their so-
lemn religious obligations. It may be observed,
that nu priest has subscribed the Petition ; the rea-
son of that is, the Petition is one merely for a pa:-
, ticipation in civil rights; but that they join the Ca-
the! c laity, in solemnly disclaiming these impute-
' tions. I have proof, in certificates, from the courts
of law, where they came forward, and cheerfully
ton!: the prescribed oaths. Another objeaion
which, I conceive, my Lords, may he offered,
is, that the time is approaching when the Catholics
cannot be depended 'upon, because the t'ope had
come to Paris, and assisted in the Coronation of
Bonaparte. Stich trifling, ridiculous absurdities,
are below serious retutation ; they may operate
=mg the ignorant and illiterate in both countries;
but can a man in either Mouse of Raliament, my
Lords, believe that the Pope is now more powerful
in Europe than during the dynasty of the Bour-
bons, or more desirous of subverting the Protestant
Government of Great Britain and Ireland, than
when the Preteneer was ready to assert his claims ?
Certainly nut. The state to which the present
Pontiff is reduced, must excite feelings of pity,
and regret. instead of those of fear, or appre-
hension of his power or his influence. I be-
lieve, ray Lords, the most efficient agents of
Bonaparte is Ireland are those who endeavour
to sow hatred and animosities between the subjeas
of different religion; in that couatry, at a period
when general unanimity is so essentially requisite.
My Lords, to argue oa the petition about the Dis-
linters, cannot be quite unnecessary, as it has been
read to your Lordshiaasic alludes particularly to
the petition of the • si on which 1 am now
addressing your Lordships. If it be right to repeal
the Test Aa, it is equally so, whether you grant
the prayer of this petition or nut—it it be wrong to
repeal the Test Aft, it will he s,), let you deal
with this petition in whatev r way you may. The
situation of the Catholics in Ireland and in Eng-
land is the same. They car be eleaed to civil of-
fices in a great many instances—tney can be Colo-
nels of regiments, Captains in the navy, &c. ; but,
because they already enjoy these advantages, it
would be absurd to say, that, on that account alone,
the Dissenters here should have the same. In Ire-
land, the Catholics have had this privilege—and it
is ridiculous to say, that the Dissenters must have
it, it you grant the Catholics this further indulg-
ence, which they require in this petition. I go
back, then, to ask, Is it true that the present sys-
tem has, or is likely to have, any operation to con-
tinee those dangers? I may rather say, is it not

true that it has the dirca contrary tendency ? I •
will, for the sake ot argument, admit for Inn..
ment, that the Catholics are disloyal—what, in
ouch case, is the conduit this country ought to pur-
sue ? There are two ways in which to proceed—
either that which was adopted and followed in the
reign of Queen Anne, or that which was so wisely.
in my opinion, pursued in the present reign. If, as
in Queen Anne's time, you think this system of the
Catholics danw-row,, you must take such measures
as will deprive them of all political power; you
must, by distianchising them of privileges, as much
as possible, diminish their influence—and this, you
yet I,y no means whatever so completely accomplish,
as by divesting them of the property they now have,
and taking care they shall not be able to acquire
can a future. In order to do 'all this, you must
make them aliens in their own country—you must
divest them of their constitutional rights ; and when
you have done this, I leave it to your Lordships
to form a judgment, whether you will be doing a
service or AU injury to the empire at large, by thus
reducing s s great a portion of the people of Ireland
to a state of vassalage, beggary, and downright
despair. My Lords, I should conceive the better
system would be, to conciliate their minds, by sub-
duing their jeep dices, and to gain their affeaions,
by ameliorating their present situation. I say this,
because I cannot but ask your Lordships, whether
you canpossibly conceive that the system of restraint
holds out the smallest chance of making them better
or more loyal sulljeas ? If this system serves neither
to conciliate them, nor to mitigate thegrievancesthey
complain of—if it disgust the high, whilst it renders
discontented the low ranks of life, it is nearly the
same as if you were to take from them all govern-
ment, and divest them of all their constitutional and
civil rights. As to votes to send Members to Par-
liament, it was unquestionably an additiional boon,
which put them more on a footing with their Protes-
tant neighbour., and gave them some few advantages
with regard to their landlords, and of course pre-
vented the lower orders from harbouring those dis-
contents they had antecedently been subjeft to un-
fold ; but if you would wish to divest them entirely
of these, if you are desirous they should be warmly
and zealously attached to that Government under
which they live, you should not attempt to hinder
the higher orders of their persuasion from enjoying
and holding seats in Parliament : those amount to
but a very small number of persons, and from their
influence in the Legislature, could not by any
possibility do the smallest particle of harm—
whereas, by the lower orders of the Catholics
being convinced that they were represented by
the very first charafters ot their own persuasion,
it will undoubtedly render them universally sa-
tisfied and happy ; they will daily and hourly
increase in industry as well as in loyalty and at-
tachment to the government, and the good effects
of it cannot fail to be speedily and forcibly felt in
every part of the united Empire, but in Ireland
most particularly. My Lords, if there be any force
in the opinion which I have heard has gone abroad,
that you ought not to enter into the merits of this
Petition, it must only be from an acknowledgment
that we are now arrived at the point on which we
are bound to make a stand ; that we must on no
account proceed any further, and that no circum-
stances can ever happen to make us deviate or de-
part from it. My Lords, whoever maintains this
position, will, in my opinion, find himself in the
wrong, because, the human understanding is not
capable of diving into the recesses of fortuity,
and saying, with the smallest chance of certainty,
what circumstance, or occurrences may or may
not arise, which stay render a change in many
parts of our system, which now appear most ex-
cellent, absolutely necessary. You have already
conceded to the Catholics all civil rights, except
those ot seats in Parliament—heads of protessi-
mns—and of the State itself. Is it not time then
that if you confide so far in the higher orders,
and not in the lower, you should endeavour to
conciliate and gain the atfeetions of the latter, by
giving distinaon to the former, who have influence
over them, who enjoy their confidence, and who
will, from the very nature of the case—from every
principle of self-interest, as well as of national and
general welfare, exert, on all occasions, that influence
tnr their own immediate benefit, as well as that of
the community ? Is it politic, my Lords, or can it
be possible, that any praaical good can ensue from
excluding three or four Catholic Peers from this
House? your Lordships think, that if they
were allowed to come into this House, do you
think, I say, my Lords, they vend succeed in per-
suading any one Lord, Spiritoal or Tempo' al, of the
weakness, the injustice, or the vanity of our esta-
blishment ? or that they could prevail with one
Lord, to make the slighte•t alteration in it? My
Lords, the question is easily answtred. I am
certain, that were they so inclined, which I can
never suppose, they could not do it. I am
equally well aware, my Lords, how little danger
there can ever be from admitting Catholic Mem-
bers into the popular branch of the Legislature. It
even half the number of representatives from that
part of the united empire could find their way into
that situation ; would fifty Catholics, if fifty there
could be, ever think of persuading the (louse of
Commons to take any measures that should ever
tend lo separate Ireland from Gees' Britain? Bat
to go farther, and suppose they should be so in-
clined, is Parliament so consti tided as to render it
possible for them to succeed in their attempts ? No-
thing can be more absurd and preposterous than
such an idea. My Lords, the same fears were pre-
tended to be entertained, and the same ridiculous
arguments were very generally urged at the time
of the union between England and Scotland, that
such a measure would endanger the Hierarchy. We
have, however, now had the experience of a whole
century, in all which time there have been forty-five
Members in the House of Commons, and I ask
whether there has ever been one single instance
in which they have made the slightest or most
distant attempt to oserturn the establishment
of the country, or if any one Scots Member ever
endeavoumed, or ever broached an idea. or a
with, to render the Presbyterian persuasion supe-
riorsto the estahlishmelit ? It is really astonish-
ing, my Lords, that, with such proceedings be-
fore our eyes, in cases so entaftly similar, we
should, at this time of day, hear such argu•
meats seriously and gravely addressed to an as-
sembly so enlightened, as that I am now address-
, ing. My Lords, I canvot here help asking, is as

exclusion that shuts nut the Catholics from the su-
perior and highest offices of the Law and the Navy,
more proper ? I have seen, in my own time. a pre-
decessor of the Noble Lord who now sits on the
woolsack ; I have seen a Lord Chid .lustice, a First
Lord of the Admiralty, and Generals and Admi-
rals in abundance, from that part of the United
Kingdom ; and yet, I believe, I can appeal to
your Lordships, whether there ever was seen in
one of those, while in even the highest offices. any
one instance of their endeavouring to change the
Episcopal Government of the country in favour of
Presbyteryanism.? My Lords, so ingenious is the
desire in many persons to maintain these exclusion*,
that they admit it to be true, the Catholics could
not easily overturn the Government; but say they,
if these privileges and franchises which the Catholics
desire are so :Jule, why are they so eager to obtain
them ? It appears to me, my Lords, to be very ob-
vious. I will take Ore three professions of the law,
the navy, and the army. Let us look at the incen.
tives which stimulate men to enter into each of
those, we shall find they ate a thirst for fame, and
a praise-worthy ambition to rise to the highest and
most eminent stations incident to each. Every
student in the various Inns of Court, while he is
consuming the midnight taper, and hourly en-
countering the difficulties and laborious researches
of his profession, is stimulated to proceed, and bold-
ly to brave every obstacle, by uniformly and con-
stantly looking forward to that high exalted station,
now filled by the Noble Lord on the Woolsack,
to the Chief Justice of the two superior courts, and
in their way to those to the intermediate honours and
emoluments attached to the Attorney and Solicitor
General, and other desirable situations, which lead
in honourable gradation to the very highest. In
the two other professions there is an equally strong
and natural impulse which urges men to encounter
every danger, and brave even death itself in the never
ceasing ambition and continual hope of one day or
other art iving at the proud and glorious stations of
a Howe, a Nelson. or an Abercrombie. My friends,
it must ever be a most consolatory and pleas- ,
ing reflation to every Briton to be able to say
to himself, that there is no man who walks the
streets in this country* who may not, except
with those exclusions I have mentioned, arise at
the highest otlices of the state. These are strong
and powerful incentives, which Nature has, with
su masterly a hand, implanted in the. human
breast which first lead men on. and afterwards
impel them, with irresistible sway, to aspire at the
highest honours and dignities, and to acquire the
charaeler of heroes. These are considerations which
equally stimulate the same high spirits to bear with
repeated and unexampled privations. which they fre-
quently find in their way, and, with the same mo-
tives, enable them to overcome the want of.
ask the Noble Lord on the wuolsack whether it would
not. in the profession of the law, be deemed a
grievous hardship that the students of Lincoln's Inn
should be entitled to the chance of becoming Lord
Chancellors and Chief Justices, and those of the
Temple and our Inns of Court should not have any ?
If we look to the navy, and say those belonging to
certain ships, and in the army, to certain regiments,
may rise to the highest pitch of preferments; but
those belonging to any other ships or regiments,
must never expert to rise, though they are possessed
of talents, honour, courage, Integrity, and every
noble quality which can adorn the human char aeter ;
surely such a distinetion would be deemed most
partial and injurious and could not fail of cre-
ating discontents and jealousies, which would at once
be hurtful to the several professions, to the general
welfare of the state, and a never-tailing source of
sorrow and repining to those who were liable to
them. Yet, my Lords, in all these, the loss of rank
is not real ; but the rankling of the barbed shaft
with which this oppression strikes them to the heart,
is produced by their not being Allowed, how. ver su-
perior their powers and ability, the mere chance of
rising to the top of their several professions. If
your desire is, that you should have so large a por-
tion of the subjeets of this country as the Catholics of
Ireland, eagerly and zealously attached to the G,lv:•rh.
meat, and ready,to sacrifice their lises in defence and
protalion of it, you must relieve them trom those
injurious restrietions and disqualificatiuns, of which
they complain ; if not, what hope i; tl.ere that you
ever can prevail on them to exert their best powers
to promote its interests and welfare? These rea-
sons, my Lords, do not appear to me to be light or
trivial ; on the contrary, I think them deserving
your most serious and attentive consideration : it is
but little for you to give, whilst it is much for them
to receive. In pro:lice also, much advantage will
ensue from the knowledge of their being repre-
sented by persons of their own persuasion, in whom
they will have confidence, and whom they would sup-
pose equally, or more deeply, interests) in any Par-
liamentary Regulations that may hereafter be made
respating them . for, however few they may be,
they will be satisfied with their admission, infinitely
more than when told you have shut your doors
against them, because they hold opinions injui ions
to the safety of the state; and what, I would ask,
can follow but suspicion and distrust in their
minds, and discontent and lukewarmness in their
hearts ? These reasons, my Lords, have induced
me to bring forward the motion, and my great ob.
jilt in doing so, is the uniting and knitting toge-
ther the hearts of all descriptions of men in this
realm, which, in the service of the church, you
pray for every day. I by no means ask you to say,
you think as I do ; all I ask of you is, that you
will not shut your eyes to the case of those Petition-
ers, but consult that which has never been ccnsider-
ed as trivial or unworthy notice, the real welfare of
the empire at large. It has long been my wish to
see this most important subjat brought before Par-
liament—though I would not, on my own accord
merely, press it forward, however necessary I
might individually chilli( it ; but, when 1 tound the
higher riders of the Catholics in Ireland were snow-
ing impatient, and that it was their particular desire
the question should be brought forward, I thought
the season most favourable for that purpose. At
the present hour, your outward situation requires
you to unite, to close your ranks, and offer to the
enemy a firm and determined phalanx, whenever
he shall dare to shew himself in your country. In
Ireland it is necessary to conciliate, and I know no
mode so likely to do it effedually, as by granting a
fair, full, and patient consideration of this Petition.
I assuie you, my Lords, 1 feel proud in the thought,
that I have been axed on to bring it forward, as

\I:
who would not feel so, in being chosen a. an 1
worthy of such particular trust and confidence, : I
large a portion of his fellow-subjefbe, as tha
entrusting to my care and management, the ta
import •tnt concern in which they were ever enga;i.
.1 have endeavoured tc do the subj..ift evaty degree
justice in my power, and will not, the. clore, truubl,2'
your Lordships further, at present, than to move..
a 'That this I louse will Eirsolve itself into a Conn
mittee of the whole Hoarse. to consider the said
ti•
Petition." o
The LORD CLIANCA LIR having road rite
question

purport Lord :H.
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pßli
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s;e,litiltiiobejtoweit6tr.i,
;fren.
in the sentiments and u
discarded
saprdeecedh,frtnhmatornour moderation
considerations
to, and that violence and party feelings should L:
Daly sorry he so
ldvk.Lei.tirseitL dot
:m dial
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f:ti,pliwtilohnktrciee,n:at itclot,nut any
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like
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ni1044t,;,,..
irt
by uttered,
rt
Ltriointur,,dohlo,rhyhedskt:hEyp,,ilaviNtsingvate,
ed to the House, whether, in a singe word he ha;
bad -recommended as necessary to the lair invt.„,.
gation of the question ? -
Lord HA W KESBURY—ts 1 understood th-
Noble Lotil to say what I have befine stated, and if
this is the wish of the Noble Lord, to agree on thr
principal of season, I know tisa well what is due to
the House, to myself; and to the Petitioners ie.;
not to confine myself within that r-osiesation which
the subjeCt reptiles. The Nobl. I„erd has out do.
fined or explained the nature of ..is motion; Let
whatever it may go to, I have ever deprecated ,L,
idea of its being brought forward, stud have used
my utmost endeavours to prevent it ; but, Lore
brought forward at the present moment, I thin;
my duty to state, that my objeffion to it goes to a .
time it can be supposed to exist. I allow the G.
tholics have been, may be, and aregy,,lnoodtiya,tll,emacnoydnse:ltifiet,u.
subjeds, and that every imputation to the contrary
themay
fundamentalb e fal sea nd unfounded;printcipsof butlawl,
tints, and will trust your Lordships cannot brindle.
ed to abandon those by any reasons hitherto urge I
by the Noble Baron. tallow there ate no laws wl:,ch
circumstances may not render it necessary to abro.
gate and abolish ; but there are also laws which ere
to be considered as of that nature and impurtancr,
that they ought never to be broke in upon. The first
principle of law at the Revolution, and also of te
Bill of Rights, is, that the Sovereigo must be a Pea.
tdstant ; and viewing that, with regard to here&
tery Monarchy, they put the question fairly, an
decided, that whatever might be the inconveciencies
of creaking the line of succession, they would rather
encounter them than hart a King Of a different per.
suasion. They had tell; ;he inconveuieucies of such
a King, in the reign of James 11. and were re-
solved not to endure them any more. In decidi:,z
this, my Lords, there is another important pot
which grows out of it from necessity, viz. Th.:
where a King must tie of the established persuasn.:,,
those who advise him must be the same. The.
may, I allow, be shades of opinion ; but whei '
as with us, the law is above the Cowo, the prism
plc cannot be smelly adhered to. It L were net a,
am, altogether hostile to the motion, I should a
danger in it, however modified. There is a Ica:
difference between ttotestant Itit.sesiders t
tholics The Inflater dtl-titst ill kr.:,wledge any ore o's
jurisdiEtion, or pay obedience to any foreign poerit
the Catholics do; and there is no Protestant te t
must see that where you allow an Ecclesiaoical
Jurisdittion, there must arise a Civil Juriefitii.o.
The present question is not, whether persons held:;
these tenets shall have civil rights, but sv;,:.
cher they shall enjoy political lower? and of
this I can allow of no increase Some years ago
the Legislature of Ireland granted Cathoies
the eleflive franchise, whether wisely or net.
I will not say. It ma./ now ha beneficial is
the Catholics, and not detrimental to Goyer.
ment, because they must return Protestant telo.:-
bers ; but once open to them the right of being re-
turned Members themselves, and it would wont
to little less than universal suffrage, and might be.
come a contest whether Catholic or Protestant vote's
Sh.4lld govern counties. I view this subjeet, my
Lot ds, 111 so different a light from the Noble Belo,
and I think matters so mach ohanged since Ihol,
tau any man who was in favour of it then, would
be Against it now. Whoever redetts on the Firma
situation of Europe, and recolleCts, that, eicept the
I louse of Austria, all the Catholic Governments is
it are under the dominion of France, wiU see there
never was a moment in which sound considerativa
and reason should teach us, this is not the time"
do it. We should wait and see the issue of the c.eit,a
in which we are engaged, before we give the esthe-
tics a power we may hereafter most bitterly repent,:.
—lf, my Lords, we proceed to enquire what prac•
tical benefits would be likely to result to the persons
more immediately interested in this application, I
venture to pronounce that they would not corre-
spond to the expettations which would be excites'.
The individuals amongst the great hot), of the Iri,li
Catholics, who could possibly be heneirrd. waled Is:
but few, whilst the general mass of the populavel
would be little interested ; but it ought rot to be
overlooked, that this very partial benefit would be
conferred at the expellee of the whole system of your
laws. In corroboration of this assertion, it May be
sufficient for my purpose to advert to the exan. ~
tions which took place after the late rebelii.o .1
Ireland. In 1798, Committees were areo'sli."- '.l
the Irish Parliament to enquire into the cirC,w
rebellion.id uais
who
had tos
mtansoceseofintdhei,Afrdeetakena
pardonn sae.ltsicieir;lt
in that rebellion, on condition of their anssved ig
interrogatories, and discovering what they knor
concerning it. These persons underwent, actor''
inlly, a striCt examination. I speak not now of the.
self-convilled declarations of one who was extolle4
by some persons in this country, as a man of loyalty
as well as of brilliant talents; I set aside this MA
(O'Connor's) declaration, and I refer to the answer.
of those whom I consider to have been in every so
spat his superiors, I mean Dr. NPNiren and Coun-
I Emmet. Amongst other questions, they wet!
asked, Ist, Whether any ecclesiastical establi.hmts
,wwroaassvip:thirtoleconhodseteidide. baynist,whheoersenvrewiathiong,pitri4iomir
yrot::ttedahsi.nthisin
ho ref: litw thee
i ir
ill g,-norl..