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London, England, 1819-02-19 00:00:00

tiulacintss. Nothiug could destroy the cliatioe of
reformation more completely than the stowing toge-
ther, lis this MINIM'. two or 300 unhappy creatures.
They were told that soldiers null sailors were lint
placed in a better situation. But their treatment
was widely different. One-half of the soldiers on
sills-board were always on deck, and one-third,
sometimes one-half, of the sailors. With respect
to this point, he had spoken to officers, who had
been engaged on foreign expedit ttttt s, and they de-
elated dust a more dreadful scene of suffering tool
iorinent could not be imagined, than that which
,tire troop-ships prevented on such °commis. Ex-
,crpt wirers duty obliged them, they would not go
below, on account of the heat and stench. Most of
the individuals were naked, for, when they arrival
the hut latitudes, they were unable to wear their
clothes. Except on board slave.ships, nothing could
be conceived mere disgusting. If this were the case
with the army end navy, what most the situation
of the convicts he ? In the army riot navy, amidst
all their sufferings discipline was prey-rued—but
what discipline was to be found amongst the con-
victs I To prevent mutiny, rank were placed on
the deck and gang-way, but this was all the control
to which they were liable. Was it not a fact, the
whole voyage was passed in gambling, in sing-
ing 'indecent songs, in every species of vice ?
Could it be otherwise, when they had nothing to
employ their minds, except the selection of means
to get rid of all reflection ? Dial they not endure
greet bodily torture ? If the laws never intended,
which they never did, !hat convicts should writhe
under bodily torment, and sink under mental de-
gradation, it formed a good reason 1,,r abrogating
the whole system.—/Hear, Gear./—Wltli respect
to New South Wale., perhaps lie might he told,
that the situation of that colony had been the sub-
ject of inquiry, in 1812, and that there was no
necessity for iiivrOlgiitleir its present state. To
this he would illiPlWtr, that they were now in the
year 18 19—and lie could prove that the situa-
tion of that colony was most materially altered.
Jo coon/legume, of numerous complaints with which
the office of the Noble Earl (Bathurst) had been
assailed, he understood a person lied been sent out
to inquire into the various topics connected with lire
colony. That person (we understand Mr. Pilafs.
den) he bad long known, and • snore humane or
intelligent individual could not have been selected.
But it did not follow, because his Majesty's Go.
"eminent had done their duty, that the House of
Commons were to abstain from performing theirs.
There wed are point which the House was impera-
tively called on to investigate. He meant the ex-
ruse winch she colony totalled on the lowlier
country. From the year 1788 to 1819, it had cost
no less than 4,000,000/. and the expense was still in-
creasing toe very great degree. By the 28th Report
of the Committee of Finance, in which sill the
*Duvets of expense were enureenited, the Com-
Mitter asked this question—" list is the expense
uhich the colony incurs--and what expense ought
it incur ?" The following was the sum it cost for
ii series of years

From 1788 to 1707 ibe average per year was € 88,455
11.. m IVA to 1811
From lel! to 1816
Ft 1.161 1818 hi 1111/
For ids year 1017
Ile knew not. rad he believed his Majesty's Go-
vernment did not know, what the esperise at 1818
was. In this stmement, it was to be obeeeved,
that the expense of the colony, and of the trausPor-
tanon of Moos were mixed together. If he entered
into the entire question of the stale of this colony,
he believed it would be found that the history of no
country could present ■ greater waste. or a more
complete swiesisppropriution of public money. If
they looked to the way in which it was governed, it
wur roost objectionable. In the first place. the
Governor regulated the 'nice of labour, viltich •
was as extraordinary stretch of power. lie
also fixed the price of provisions, five-sixths
of iihreh, he believed, were provided by him.
RIF. fie also bad the power of opening and
,hotting the public stores, and the ports of the
i•laud. Persons Caine from different parts of the
i.lesid with the produce of their farms. They.
bound the stores shut—and anxious to procure
some money fur their commodities, they sold them
st redeced prices. 'rite very next day the stores
were opened, nod their grain was surly bocst•d
there. Look at the wretched situation no which
the colonial settlers, who were little abuse the rank
rif peeper's. were placed. They sent down their
grail,, believing the Government stores vo.ulil be
apes', and that they would receive Joi, tier Int.:it-I
for if. They blood them, by the Governor's
coustnand, shut—they were then c.iiniolled to
tstse six or seven shillings per bo•hrl—sad they
found that the ♦ery persona who had made pur-
chases, lodged them, iu the coli:.e of a abort
time. in the Government more.. 'Chia was u
thing of censtaint occurrence. It was most ill.
parlous to the Colony, and he was ready to prove
the fact at the bar of the House. 111 the year
1813, the Goverour imported a great quautity of
gr 3 .1. ‘Viirt followed ? The crop of that year was
ieunnkahly abundant, but the stores were tilled
%oil the imported corn, and the farmer could not
get more than .ss. per bushel. 'flue consequence
•144%, that fir wasted his grain, that he led his hogs
with it. Wont was the result ? A scercity fol-
lowed. and, ist the end of the year, the Goveruor
wanted to purchase the•renmeinder el the grain he
had originally missed. for which he was °Wig, d to
pay tti•. pee bushel. IVitli regard to meat, it
had been customary for the Government to give
krl. per pound for it. lint Goveraor Mac/fa:arm
lamed an order, without all hour's notice, that in-
stead of 9.1. only 61 bliould be marl iu future.
. Two, :by his coommod, the property of tarry man
lii the Colour, who burl cattle, was depreciated 45
per.cent. 110 atop could be lint to such wisest-
palatable conduct, for a consfrlerable period. The
I"illimaute of New South Wales were the umliporks
Eoglionl, Mid a complaint could not be made
here in u'intich less period than twelve months.—
To call this a counuercial Colony was a mere
/flack tiy: It was, in point of fact, al/ agricultural
Colmq. It might, indeed, produce. Perc•es finer
than those of Spain, and as fine as the Saxon
wool ; tioy ►fetch the very highest Prices m
the European markt i; but still the Colony was
vumpleti ly agricultural. He Brow came to the ad-
h.•nu.traUuu of justice in the Cdony. Of late
jraa, Govetisuieht had brio out two or three per-
awls to act /9 the judicial department ; 'Jut Siiii 111!

notilsl 'hew, that there was a necessity for the re-
visiois of the law. There sea- ,o Court, called, lie
believed, the Judge- Atlvocete's Court. in which the
person who presided was scabbard by two of the in-
habitants of the place. A perm's,' hail recently writ-
ten home that lie had been there nose moralise and
that scarcely any &manic/re wits trinsaucted, In the
lest Committer, it was recommended that Trial by
Jury should he eatablished there. Attached as lie
was to (hat mode of trial, he was not prepared to
say, that it would be a arise and salutary measure to
resort to et regent. Bin he wanted the Wine. he
wanted the politic In hear the firth-rent opiinaus nit
the subject. Ile wished the question to be openly
mid fairly dec'ileil, and not set at rest its cruise-
qnence of any sort of consinuincations tussle at the
office of Earl Ilathurst.—( 1 leer, hear.)—The ap-
ponitnient of Nlaeiatrates was a question of great
importmice. The Governor, he understood, had
nominated two persons, of the name of Johnson
and Lord. to he Magistrates, although lie knew
they had been convicts. l'he floss. :Wernher here
adverted to a statement he had ramie, that a per-
son, who filled a considerable situation its the Co-
lony (we understand that of,Surgeon-Genred), had
heels transported to Botany Bay. He f 11:e was
mirtaken--and he now, as publicly re the injury was
done, declared that has statement was erreneosis.
He had stopped the circulation of the pamphlet,
and had excluded from it the sheet ill winch the
statement showered. Ile was nut only ready to
say, that lie had done an injury, must unuitention-
ally—but he would also declare, during which
this individual Idled the office, lie had conducted
himself with great probity.—(llear, hear.)-11nt
the system of raising convict+ to the nook of Ma- '
gistratea, was most mischievous. It would lee un-
wire in any country, hot particularly here, to tole-
rate such a state of things, as would give an op-
portunity to u prisoner at the bar to reproach the
person before whom he was tried. with having been
once in an equally dishonourable eituation himself.
To place two such men as Me had described in the
situation of Magistrates. was most improper. He
should like to know the opinion of his Majesty's
Goverinnent on the subject, arid whether they had
reprimanded the Governor for such • breach of
duty—(!!ear.)—He learned from The Sidney Ga-
zette. that Mr. Lord, who was placed in the Com-
mission of the Peace, was also an auctioneer and •
merchant. The respectability of the administra-
tion-of Justice in that country might be judged of
by this circumstance, that Mr. Lord came down
from the Bench, stepped into a cart, and pro-
ceeded to sell blankets.—(Laughter.)—He now
begged the attention of the House to a subject
which moot interest the best feelings of their
hearts—he. meant the state of crone in that
Colony. lie could not get the accurate infra-
, mallow which was to be derived from the returns
rent to the Secretary of State's office, and was
obliged to found his observations on the statements
contained in The Sidney Gazette. He learned
' harm them that there were tin less than 27 persons ca.
pitally convicted there at two Sessions, in 1817—and,
if lie averaged the number, per annum, at 40, he did
tiot think lie would be above the mark. This, consi-
dering the population, was about one individual in
fire hundred. Let the House contrast this with
the state of crime in England. He found, that, in
Devonshire, 11 persons were capitally convicted in
the last half-year, out of a population of 383,308
or one in '9,48.5. In the county of Warwick, where
the AislZes were considered very heavy, he found
that twenty-seven persons had been capitally con-
victed in the half-year--or one in B,7s9:—And, in
Yorkshire he fuand, greatly to the credit of that
large county, that, during six mouths of the year
1816. only twenty-four persons were capitally con-
victed out of a population of 987,000—0 r one in
41,000. So thatin this school of reform, which
Eligland had beets supporting for thirty years,
vice and crimir.alty had arrived at a much
higher pitch that" in the mother country. It was int-
,
posaohle to open any one of those Gazettes without
i feeling ;ulled at the long details which they con-
tinued of every species of guilt and villainy. Perhaps
these never was a cituotry on the face of the globe
in which the same degree of guilt prevailed. The
He's. Gentleman next adverted to the power assum-
ed by the Governor of inflicting arbitrary punish-
ineists—mud instanced the treatment of there free
I inept, who were punished with tseenty-five lashes
each by the public executioner, because they had
entered, through ass aperture in the wall, into a
place which Governor Macquerrie called his park.
One of there men was a most ingenious artist, and
had iiivented an iiistruniesit by which the centre of
the dollar was knocked out. By this expedient,
which lie recommended to the notice of the
Bight Hoisoureble Gentleman (nlr. Wellesley
Polrl, Government had saved 10,0001.—since
the dollar, after the perforation, was current
for as iiluell as it was received for before. %%lieu
the Governor came home, he knew he was liable to
an action—but that was co reason why the House
should shut its eyes on such a transaction.—/!fear,
hear.)—The Governor acted etitirely as his awn
will and pleasure dictated—and, be conceived, it
was wrong in his Majesty's Government to place
`20,000 Englishmen within the power and caprice of
on individual, unamtated fly a Connell, and free
from any advice or restraint whateser.—(Hear,
hear.)—Again, the Crown, acting by the Gover-
nor, exercised she whole authority of raising money.
It might be mud, that this sea:, a conquered Colony,
and that therrlciv this right was vested in the
Crow's. But he denied that New South Wake
siais a conquered Colony—and he was ready to meet
soy ono' on that question. Ten shillings a gallon
aria placed out spirituous liquors--6d. per lb. on
11)Imitii—.1144.1 Vitt loos other duties were resorted to—
all of which produced mutually the sum of 20,0001.
Thase insposhs were, hr conceived, illegal. That
Hotese ought impose a tax—bait the Crown, an a
Crown, hail ilot the slower to do it. The Hon. Gen-
tleisiais next touched of the bUl.leCt of moral end re.
lq:V1(011,4 Clitirallun in tlit! CUts)ll7, Which he described
to lir no a most deplorable state. Many of the colt-
Inerve Irish Cetisolics, who received no religious
instruction whatever ; for lie did not think they de-
rived any from the order if the Governor, st Ito com-
pelled them, by the iliterventimi of a number of
constahles, to attend a place of Protestant worship
every Sunday. In the Church where they were the;
assembled, every thing took place except what was
most suitable to it. The Cathedics, rather than
submit to any Prioestaist rite, lived unmarried, and
refuerd obedievce to every ceeraccay of the Chuich

of England, encept the new one, discovered by the
Governor—that of tit aching together,. per force,
to the Protestant piece of worship. A Catholic
Priest, from Ireland, went, of his owl) warted, to
his countrymen in New Smolt Wales—oat i.e was
first emit to prison, and afterwards ahipprd from
the island by the Governor, who declared that he
would toter but one reltgiois in the colony. But
surer• it was better to have virtue and morals with
50 religions, than to have vice will crime with nue.
—( Hear, Iseur.)—Thu poor Irish laineuted exceed-
ingly the departure of the clergyman. They slued
tears as lie left them, and appenred rather to lie Ll-
lutvisrt some beloved friend to 11,1 grave, than this it
pastor to the vessel which was to bear Lim away. Out
of 4,000 children, nut more 1,000 received schiml
education, the reina"iting 3,001) were wholly neglect-
ed ; and, of the toitire body of females in the colon),
tint more than 400 were known to go to Church.
Those who knew the value of u religious education
to the female sex in this country, would easily con-
ceive from this statement what a dreadful laxity of,
murals there must be amongst the women ill New
South Wales. Indeed, vest numbers of these un-
happy beings, when their hours of labour %sere
over, were obliged to roam the streets, to support
themselves by 10-osmotic'''. The male colivicts,
who had constant access to them, became rob-
bers, in order to support the feinalr►—•and
not a farmer could leave a bushel of wheat
ill his bans, a sheep in his field, or hug in les
sty, that was not liable to be stolen, when lie was
asleep, to assist those unfortunate prostitutes. The
Hon. Member inveighed strongly against the man-
ner an which public-houses were licensed. In the
last year, no less than 5i were established. If
permitted at all, respectable psi suns ought to hold
them. But he believed they were given to persons
who had been convicts. One of them was kept by
a Mrs. Hazard, the wife of a notorious character,
well known in ►his metropolis by the epithet of
(Word Bob. Could this be soy other than a
flash-house, a receptacle for all the thieves in the
Colony—a piece where stolen goods of every
description could be safely deposited? Front
the accounts received, it might be raid encou-
ragement had been held out to every species of
vice. Persons besides who went out there with
their purses full, from their iniquities and crimes
in England, set up shops, and insulted the indus-
trious settlers. If it were desirable, as he thought
it was, to give rewards for good conduct in that
colony, no NM so was it that shows should be
avoided in the exercise of that doscretion. Ile had
nu hesitatton in saying, that if the settlement were
well governed, and its resources wisely drawn forth,
it might he made, instead of a seat of immorality
and a nursery of vice, a source of great profit to
the country. Much of the wool used in our
tuanu-
factories might be imported from thence. Mr.
M'Arthur had last year sent over not less Iliad 8,000
fleeces. The territory was of vast extent, well calcu-
lated for the feeding of sheep aid other cattle, and
the culture of the olive and vice. Lamentable as was
the state of morals at present, dishearteniug the
reports of the general state of things, yet, he had
110 doubt that, under another system of manage-
uncut, the country might derive important advats-
tages from the colony; but above all other ineatie
of improvement, it should not be saturated with
criminals. Writers slid legislators had been many
ages inculcating the necessity, and describing the
benefits, of severe poilisliments by way of example;
but it was an error to suppose, that examples could
ever effectually suppress the commission of crimes.
The true preservative against crime, was a coissuc-
tion of the facility of detection. They might enact
punishments as mild as they pleased, provided they
could at the same time associate in the du of
the community the idea of offence with that of the
certainly of detection. In doing that, they would
have effected snore than if they were to load their
Statute Book with harsh laws and cruel penalties,
airainst which the good sense mid humanity of so-
n
ciety would revolt. He begged pardon of the
House for having engrossed so large a portion of its
time—(lrear,l—and moved
That a Select Committee he appointed to take into con.
sislerasion she state of the tranapurtat of offeudera, and
the state of the Colony of New South Wales.

Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that stay observations
he should feel it necessary to make on the speech of
the Hon. Gentleman, would apply to its general
scope and teller, rather than to the details into
which he had entered. He was not in possession
of much information to disclose to the House, but
he was sure that he laud friends about him who
would reply to whatever had fallen from the Hon.
Gentleman that seemed to require a particular an-
swer. He wished to direct the House to what was
the main object of the Hon. Member's motion. It
was inquiry ; and here he should take the oppor-
tunity to say, that he should be extremely sorry to
believe that that Hon. Gentleman considered him
to be hostile to his views. Such was not the fact ;
it would be treating him with injustice to suppose
that he was an oppouert and not an ally to the
Mover.—( Hear.)—He regretted that the pressing
and various business which had hitherto fur a long
series of time employed the House, had not afford-
ed more leisure for an examination into the general
state of gaols, and plaices of that nature ; but it
was his intention 11l a short lime to move for such
an inquiry on the most comprehensive scale, which
would take in the consideration of that question
to which the proposed motion referred. Therefore,
having fairly stated that he was not an opponent to
the Alm her opposite in his ultimate views, lie hoped
he should receive credit for the sii!cerity of his
intentions, when he said, that lie did not approve
of the mode in which the Holt. Gentleman wished
to carry his views into effect. He allowed that if
the proposed inquiry stood on insulated grounds, it
might be a fair subject for a Committee ; but
if be should-sliew that it did not—that it was inferior
to, and included in two other intended inquiries—
and that in fine the Hon. Mover was not pursuing
the best course to attain his own purpose—he trust-
ed that, in candour, he would give it up und join
with him. The appointunot of a Committee then,
on that particular subject id inquiry, would very
much interfere with and rintiorrass that on tine ge-
neral subject, the particular inquiry contended
for formed only a part of u Combiliation„ all con-
nected with each other, and proper to be consider.
ed conjointly. lie did nor think the case ors,
Which called for a eaparate Cousinittee, as if there
were lAD general question to winch it was subordi-
site. It was Gut, by any means, the first time throat?.

jet 11.14 I.IVPII lalen np, In the year 1812 an lion.
Afent!rer, whose loss to the Goose lie had to la-
moil!, who, from the extent of Ilia mind, and fer-
vour of Ina humanity, was well uiliportl to condliet
Old) WI I itve•tigatiois, moved fur a Committee simi-
lar to that now desired. The Committee sat, and
made an elaborate Report, which he then held in
hie hand. The Noble Lord limn reatl the conclud-
ing 'paragraph of the Report, to spew the opiiiion
of that k:ommittee on the conduct of the Govern-
ment respectitig the Colony, to tile following ef-
feet !

" Anil it lit the opinio' or eir rummittee, that if the
C.! hag nut rntirrly an.werr.l Ih culls iz.oillly I ...al.:u-
rn, tt but lately swatted lII,' urn. ill us 1., ao.Ary I.ll"iition
iif And that urn,. 1..5. 1.. ru a, nt iiui,
if acted ma produce lii. ,11111%1 efredia."

Such was the opinion of the former Cosninittee on
the part pursued by Governme sit. Ile could assure
the Honourable Geutlrunan ilast th-re wii no re-
enussos,s to be hist to its cis Irv.. Ills Noble
Friend at the 'wad of the Cobol's! Department had
lately procured a Gemini/41i to procure such
minute mipsrmation as could not la- obtain ed but
upon the slim, with a view to making all practicable
'improvements iii the condition, l,abttw, nisi morals
of the population. Let it nut then he nuppoved
that all care of the Colony hail been thrown otf,
suet that it IMM% abithdOlird to all species of
misgovernment nod immorality. The Honourable
Geotlemaii knew that three individuals had lately
arrived here from New South Wales, sod could
afford st valuable information ; lie assured him
that in the course of inquiry retviumeeeled by him-
self, the opportunity should be anded him of
obtaining it in as ample u manner as he could
desire. He did justice to the motives by wish
the lion. Member was actuated ra bringing goes-
boos of this n:sture before the Hotise—(//eue)—
lie believed conscientiously they were of the purest
kmd, but lie carried so much zeal with him as
sometimes threw a cloud, he must be permitted to
say, over his good sense and discernment ; his mind,
on many occasions, received a false colour from
ex parte evidence, on the strength of which too he
sometimes came here and pledged lime:elf further
than, in his opinion, he should. For exaimilr, was
it a cause of excessive astonishment that in Botany
Bay, the majority of whose population consisted of
persons convicted of crimes, many of capital ones,
there should be found more critintiols in a given
period than in the county of Was wick—a county of
what he hoped he might call a civilised and mural
country ? The Hon. Gesitlemati's opinion also
of the system pursued in the hulks appeared, from
his statement of th it 'light, to have undergone a
great revolution. The Hon. Geiptletalates sensitive
mind had passed from the state of tile convicts to
that of soldiers on board transports, and he had
asked, what would be the sensation of any Gentle-
man in the House, if he had gone down, and been
assailed by the smells to which that class of prisons
are exposed. For his pert, he had never gone down
into the cabin of ally packet without having his nose
saluted by a disagreeable smell ; and not only were
soldiers, but gentlemen and ladies too, obliged to
submit to it. They could not look at the question
in an insulated point of view, it could not be sepa-
rated either from the consideration of the criminal
law, of which notice had beet' given by au Flom
Gentleman on the opposite side of the House (Sir J,
Mackintosh), nor from that into the state of prisons
fur which lie himself intended to move. Ile hoped
the whole subject, in all its branches, would be
gone into fairly and dispassionately, and that every
imlividual capable of taking a part in the inquiry,
whatever might be his general opinions, would cols-
trihnte the benefit of Isis assistance. He should
think it a great misfortune to be debarred of the
co-operation of the Hon. Mayer of the question
before the House, or of the Hon. Gentlemen who
had given notice of the other 'notion to which lie
had alluded ; he should consider that, without
them, the inquiry would be mutilated and rendered
abortive. It was for the House to consider which
of the three inquiries was fit to be the leading our.
Ile looked upon this as the lesst fit, because the
most harrow, and it would not only come within the
investigation contemplated by him, but would form
one of its most important branches. Ile was of opi-
nion that his was the best entitled of the three to be
the basis of the question. In proposing inquiry into
prisons and hulks, he did not wish to exclude the
state of the criminal law—but that division of the
subject could not be examined effectually without
considering what bad been the effect of those se-
condury punishments which would perhaps be sub-
stituted in a vast number of instances liar capital
ours. It was better to begin with the practical
than the abstract consideration of the question.
His object was to take the most continued and
comprehensive view of it, rather than to split and
separate it. He should, however, be sorry to treat
the 'notion in such a manner as to imply.any lass-
tility or censure, and should therefore move the
previous question.

Mr. WILBERFORCE Paid the speech of the Noble
Lord, as he understood it, consisted of two parts—
the tendency of the first was to depreciate and
dissuade from inquiry—the latter recomtnelided it,
but condemned the mode.—(Hear.)—Now when
a Metnher professed himself favourable to the
object of another, but opposed him, merely because
he disliked the mode in which lie proposed to attain
his object, he could not help suspecting the since-
rity of htio professions.—(Bear./
Lord CASTLEREAGH here rose and said, he was
sure his Hon. Mend did not wish to militate him,
but that, notwithstanding, lie was cluing w.
Mr. WILBERFORCE writs only stating it so his
opinion, that the latter part of the Noble Lord'.
speech was at complete valiance with the former.
He supposed the Noble Lord roust have forgot the
first part, by the time he got to the second.—(4
laugh.)—But he would appeal to say
,Gentlernsu
in the House, whether, if lie had gone away after
the first part of the speech, lie would net have
supposed the Noble Lord averse to inriniry alto-
gether.(Hear, heur.)—lle had not heard any
reason assigned for refusing- inquiry. , The Mem-
ber who had, with so much credit to himself,
opened the debate, lied stated on good gromid., the
existence of very great defects to the Colony,
it was extremely desirable that a Committee plionld
examine into the origin, estetd, owl tat,ons of re-
moving them. He had hoped the Noble Loud
would have made ato
,attempt extilalit or deny
the statements of obuires. If he had done so, it
Inuit have beeo *bile lie was absent, fur he had

• •
not heard a sittgie word of dill sort route from
him. All the cooroilistsCry twitter which had fullen
from the Noble Lord was,, that ceitaiss princi-
ples had heels put in action, from which good
might be expected. Certainly great negligence
had prevailed on the pert of the Governmesd.
io the inanagensent of the Colony, and it was not
surprising, from its rsonnteuess. One of the greatest
evils of the Criminal Code was, that the nominal
warm wits not the real system. They assorted ar-
erre penalties against ist'elices. The intelligenre
mid Immunity of the times would not permit them
to he put in execution, except tit a veiy few ewes ;
1111 d thus a gemlshog .peculation, N. to the hope of
escape, was acted on by the offeiider. The
Member flies, argued out the exisedieltey of having
the inquiry into the state of New South lee
completed previous to entering nn that proposed by
the Noble Lard, which lie did not see could be
of much more avail in shewisig the vicious effect.
of our prisons thou Nlr. Howard's bock. If the
inquiry into New South Wales were made subser-
vient to the other, the Coiner on it he but half
done, or done very imperlsc!tc. If,' s' acted the los-
qiiiry world go 4)11 littitiorritely ts.)- totOrmatattir
rilsclooed by the Nlenilier oho deii,e,
watt the mole worthy the tasissofe:atioo of t ',e csa.r,
as it came front a gentleman of a- mu" is prolnt,
good sense. and without pritessiltio4 i:ver wee seo-
lability, ea 111114:111 real humanity ter visited the
settlement, whose n11111111:1. Alien knots is, would
entitle him to as high a station iuthe MOrat
tourhl as rosy individual ever sitsioed. That gen-
tleman had taken tutu his own 110.i.e
two iuhr-
bitants of New Zealand, shit he iti.o.o lulus en
tictitt iiiitaitee with the lestgtwige and .Iti.latt. of Out
people, nod after having done so, vt.:isosed his per-
:Van it. the danger and liort.tl of prof slating ii bar-
barrios country for the purpose o! conve.ting the
nab yea. It 'sneered fist ureic %ere thtillsalide of
women in Botany Bay who hail ;to mean. of sub-
sistence but inostiiworo; could son thing more
powerfully *hew the necessity of ioquiey ? These
things were going ou when Lord Ali Stool's Coin-
'inure was silting, hot not a wool .r it wa• beard
there. 11 s Noble Friend told them a le-rson Was
going nut nosier the auspices of Government ; lie
knew the person. and he was 4,11, rittiiletitly gold-
litied fur the office; but why w.it many yearr, for
information wile., they had it aillre.tily. He wed
sorry inquiry had been taodprosed so long, and
astonished to see his Noble Fiseml now oppmse the
tritium). It was the first time shire the peace, that
any question for the moral reforintioli of the
people was brought forward, and that was the way
in which Missesteis niet it.—lieur,
the more regretted that isolispositons on the part
of the Government, as it would deter the wise iu
their generation from cuirditg forward with what
information they 'night possees.—(llears hear.)—
One view of this questims wits of awful wlpit Noce,
here they were forming an irnmen.c colony, which.
if not reformed. would certainly he a '.-A of vipers
for all that country. lie hoped tie toquiry would
be carried on separately.
Lord CASTLEREAGH and Mr. W LBERPORce
mutually explained.
Mr. (ion LIM atr contended that the st.teineist of
his Noble Friend had been mistakes, by the Meru.
her who spoke hod. Ile argued that by going too
a Committee now, the inquiry woold he carried OR
He then rel.-tied to a letter on ex pule evidence.
in his hand, written by a geotlemais in orders.
as respectable its Air. Nisrodett isiruself. It
was very long, and was a satisfsetany proof of
the improvement of which the couvicta were capa-
ble, and of the inipiestions entertained on that
pond by some of their ()XII body. He lamented
the difficulty that was gruer.illy felt in providing
sufficient religiniim instruction, not fur New South
Wales alone, but for every other colemy, and wet of
Clergymen of the Estabh•lied Church alone, but
also of every other Peel. lie alluded to the, case of'
the Irish Priest, °Tips's, who had been Rent by
the Goveroor from New South Wales. This Mr..
I:nova:nice was true, but the e...a.e was of a slater, as
to nffind sufficient jowitivotiiiii to the Governor,
O'Flytin hail some tine sluice addressed a letter to
Lord Bathurst requesting that lie might be perenittt it
to proceed to New South %Vales as a Human Catho-
lic Bishop. Oil application respecting this man to
the heads of the Catholic Church, it was understood
that lie was in every respect improper. This indi-
vidual subsequently wetit to New South Wales
chnitlestiudy, and as soon as his character was made
known to the Governor he was di iven from the co-
lony. lie remarked, generally, upon the iitipeissibilty
of establishing in a Colony, so constituted as was
New South Wales, the same regulations of society
as in one wherein .ortural and a 'coil principles had
been longer recognised. The stale of morals in New South
Wales was not indeed such as could be desired but no rem.
sure could be attached to the Governmeut. An argument
had been drawu by the Hon. Gentleman in proof of the
want of murals in site Culuuy, that nut more than 400 females
were in the habit of attending divine service; lint tie argm.
meat should be &dared from th:s co.cutostauce, without
taking into cousideratison the propurilon litiWCell the Isom.
her of mates and females in the Colony. lie held iu his
baud a paper, sbewing the number of convicie transported
within the years 1816 and 1818, from which it appeartd,
that the males were 3,535, and the females 29l —(Fleur.)—
With respect to the buildings appropriated io the fur
she accommodation of female convicts, he !.id to Stale did
two years since R factory was in contemplation, but it belts.
at that time strongly recommended to the Goveruor, 1144
three clioccbes were necessary, he suspended the factioy
until the churches one twill ; and tom she churches twang
finished, the factory was iu a very forward slats of prepara-
tium—rilear, hearsi—He was very ready to rive every
formation us. the subject that might be requitid, hut it as
impossible fur die House to undertake any fortiorr inquwy
twill the result of the inquiry hy the Commission already
•ppuiiited was aseertaitted.
sir llsse M•RTIN rend several extracts from private
letters from couvicta, expressive of their gratitude for the
kindness mid siteittwo with which they had beeir ticarcil
dosing tie voyage; also ui extract from a letter Cum kir
John Gore, Commander iu the Medway, stating, that lie hart
visited the Baring tramper' ship a few days after the vim of
the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bennett), and that Hot
convicts were cowfurtpbly and well treated. He cmp.rf•seJ
his !tsdipsatiou that Dr. Halloran had hid a cabin to lottr.
self, much better than was usually assigned to Lieutenants
in fripics. The Honourable Member, however, atekttow.
hedged, that is the Surrey convict ship, fifty perilous had
died.
Sit 'AMPS 51aclatalims6 said, be,dottuldbe unjusiiibble,
I were hr to occupy the time of the /loom aft. r the veil able
and Militant speech of tie Filosuserable Member fur Bomb. r
(Mr. Wilberforce). Tbat Honourable Member had Vol WI:
puled to the Nimble Lord $ deans to stifle lagniry. He ass
well understood she rules of gooddsreeding, and list newC,
of PiliritillAtOt, to make such 4e-charge ; but it was swim tot
that when liar Noble Lord proposed as istqatry w gate. 31
Is destroy its owa objects, it trusted to render it altueerhor •
mockery. He commented upoo tbc contradicts:li y,cti.irai.ta

V

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~au stolen on geloa groottm-, me "
were hr existence of very great defects to the Colony, "nth"nthand occupy the iime of the House after the very able
loilh•nt sptreeh of the Homuserable Member fur Bomb. r
it was extremely destrablg that It Committee slawild (Mr. Wilberforce). That Honourable ilieniber had cut um:
I examine lot° the origin, extent. and lat.-nos of re- 1 puled to the Noble Lurd a dews to sidle imptoil. He tots
-
moving thew. tie had hoped the No'ole Lotd well understood the rules of good.brecdirte, and ii,e ossee
•
would have made nu atieurpir .to or deny
Parliament, to make such a'eltarec ,• but it was sootf It
~ that when Site Noble Lord proposed se Inquiry to et:weal
111
the statements of obuires. 11 he heel done '" to destroy its one objects, it tended to render it alturerie-r •
Midi have been *hilt Le was absent, for he had saocitery. He communed lipoid/It contrsdletely chsirsout
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