Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-07-09 00:00:00

MIRKETS COMMITTEE.

The proceedings of this committee were rend. They
comprised nothing of interest.
Mr. Hoosom drew attention to the annoyance occasioned
on Saturday nights by the collection of nut sellers and
others in Queen-square, and observed that it was much
complained of by the persons residing there.
The Mason observed that that was a subject for the
consideration of the Watch Committee.

M. J. B. BRANCRER pr3mised that it should be at-
tended to.

The proc,edings were confirmed.

The proceeding 4 of the Gaol and House of Correction
Committee—comprit•ing a recommendaion to appoint
Thomas Guy as engineer, at a salary of 355. per week,
deducing the usual amount for uniform, were confirmed.
The proceedings of the Town-hall Eitabhshment ware
also confirmed.

HEALTH COMMITTEE.

The proceedings of this committee were read They
comprised —" Recommendation to increase the salary of
Mr. J. P. Wilson. clerk in the borough engineer's depart-
ment. from £7O to £BO per annum, the consideration of
which was postponed at the last monthly Council, pursuant
to the standine, orders. Recommendation to authorise the
requisite steps being taken for carrying out a plan for new
Public Offices in Dale-street, and for effecting improve-
ments there."
The report of the committee on the subject of the second
recommendation was read. We have already published it.
Mr. Alderman DOVER moved the confirmation of the
recommendation. He observed, that as the report stated.
the Council had already affirmed the principle of the
recommendation by a resolu'ion passed at their meeting
on the Pith of last August. The situation of the present
offices waJ very inconvenient. They were at too great a
distance, and while the propose I cffiees would lie more
central they would alio open up a neighbourhood that was
almost a disgrace to the town, and would improve the
health and morals of the people. The improvement would
widen Sir Thomas's Buildings and Crosshall-street, which
at present were too narrow. They would have in all,
about 8,900 square yards of land ; they would require
3,700 square yards for the public offices. leaving the
quantity to be disposed of for the erection of a new Post-
office, or for other purposes, about .5,20 t) square yards.
As to the cos', it wss calculated that in round numbers the
loss to the public, after the sale of the present offices, and
the disposal cf the land that would remain above that

req&rei for the new cffices, wt u;cl be about £27000 ;
which would require a rate of one-half psnny in the pound
for nine yeas to recover. As the Council were aware, it
would require an act of parliament to carry out the im-
pcovements, and the committee should again come before
them both in regard to the notices and the bill itself, the
Council need not hosila e to approve of the recom-
mer dation.
Mr. Stan. seconded the motion.

Mr. Alderman HOLME agreed that a street communicating
from Castle-street to Mancheeter-street would be a great
public convenience. He agreed also that the destruc ion
of the nest of wretched buildings in the neighbourhood of
Preston street and Croeshall street, would tend to the
benefit of the town, by opening up a large district for
c,rnmercial purposes, which he had no doubt would
ultimately be covered by buildings of a better description ;
bet at the same time he should say that it was impossible
for the Council, out of the borough funds, to spare a
single gulling for the purpose of improvement, however
desirable it might be—and desirable he confessed this
improvement to be. (Hear, hear.) With the engage.
ments into which the C-until had entered, and the un-
certain condition in which the• were placed with reference
to a large po:tion of their revenue, it was impossible for
them to spare one penny from the borough fund for the
purpose of carrying out the improvement; end, therefo-e,
before he gave any further opinion on the subject-, he would
ask whether it was the intention to carry out the improve-
ment by a rate upon the inhabitants or by a portion of
the borough fund ? If the former, he would support the
recommencation ; if the latter, for the purpose of preserving
the credit of the Corporation, and husbanding their
resources to meet the large engagements into which they
had enter d, he should oppose it.
Mr. Alderman MITER said he thought he had already
stated thet the cost would be £27,000, which would require
a rate of it in the pound, f T nine years, to defray.
Mr. Alderman HOLME: Then it is the intention to carry
it cut by a rare, and not to call upon us for anything.
Mr. Alderman DOVER : Yes.
Mr. Alderman !Toole: Then I have no objection to it.
Mr. Alderman Devem : We shall, of course, borrow the
money, ,nd pay back the principal in a certain number of
years ; but is would not be prudent, nor for the public
c neenience, that I should go more into details. (Hear,
hear )
Mr. Ptcroer said that, without giving any cpinion on the
merits of the question, he thought the Conned ought to
have more information furnished them before coming to
the discussion of a question of such great importance.
They were asked to determine, at a moment, a great
publicimprovement, which would involve the outlay of a
large 811 M of money ; as they were told that the bal glee
against tee public would be 1:27,600, and that it would be
paid for in a certain manner.
.They were not informed,
however what that £27,000 umuded, or how it arose
m i
Did the Health Co mittee ntend to take upon themselves
the whole cost of the improvement, and to make the street
from North John-street to Whitechapel. Was that the
intention ? (Cries of "N e no.") Then, in that case, the
£27 000 only represented a very small portion of the
outlay. It only represented that portion whieh the Health
Committee themselves weeild have to deal with, in their
capacity of asnitary c mmissioners for the borough.
They were to build the proposed officee, and to
sell the old ones, the Coreoratien furnishing the land, and
rut of that transaclim it was expected there would be a
loss of £27,000. But there was beyond that the cost of
all the land on which the buildings were to stand, end
there was also the purchase of a large amount of property
Mr JAMES Hopis said that he would be happy to give
Mr. PIC= every information on the subject.
Mr. Alderman DOVZR : If Mr. Picton wish to force us
into further details we. shall be obliged to go into them;
but it will be inconvenient, and injurious to the public.
Mr. PieroN replied that it was ingenious to talk about

the inconvenience of details, and that only a portion of the
scheme was now brought before them, but that was the
very thing he objected to. He objected to matters being
brought before them piecemeal. (Hear, hear.) He thought
the Council ought to have the whole scheme before them,
and not be told now that the cost would be only X 27,000
and at a future day that it only included a part of the
scheme. It was to that kind of legi.lation he objected.
He would like to know out of what fund the new street,
was to ba made? He was asking for inf.rmation, and he
wished to know whether the £27,000 loss included the
purchase of the property, and the making of the new
street ?
Mr. Alderman DOVER : I will answer the question when
you finish.
Mr. PiCPON : I cannit finish until you answer my Ties
tion.

Mr. Alderman DOVER : I say, emphatically, all tint will
be required from the ratepayers is £27,000.
Mr. PlcroN : Who is to make the street ?
Mr. HODSON : There is no street to be made.
Mr. PIC CON : Then my statement is correct, that the
£27,000 does not include the making of this new street,
and I say that under prevent circumstances, to commit
this Council to an indefinite expense, of which they know
nothing, except that it will be a very enormous sum, would
be about the most unwise vote we could come to. I say
nothing in regard to the scheme. It may be the best and
most desirable plan that could be adopted—of that I say
nothing—but I do say, that to adopt a plan, ostensibly to
coat £27 000, when the proposer of that plan knows well
that to complete it will require three or four times that
sum, is what the public o ght not to sanction. Ido not
wish to condemn the scheme, but I say it would be wise to
postpone it. I move, then, that it be postponed for the
Present.
Mr. Feetetnoree seconded the amendment, and main-
tained that the public were not dissatisfied with the situ-
ation of the Cornwallis street offisee.
Mr. JAMES Hones, in supporting the recommendation,
said that the Council ought to take into consideration
the circumstances that led to the proposition.
When the Saracen's Head became vac an`,
many gentlemen connected with toe Health
Committee thought it was a favourable opportunity to
secure a site on which to erect public offices, and bearing
in mind that they were going to remove the Police Ceuree
to Dale-street, he considered that it would be found that a
system of centralisation of all the public offices would be
best for the whole community. (Hear, hear.) During the
time that plans were being prepared for the public (settees,
the Chamber of Commerce thought it a favourable oppor-
tunity to secure a site for the new Post-office, and upon
several gentlemen visiting the locality, they considered
that not only would a great benefit be effected be the
removal of the wretched property with which it
was covered, but that it was the best site that
could be found for the new building. He agreed
with Mr. Picton that they should not advocate
a bit by bit system of improvement, but it was necessary
on all occasions to show on a plan not only what was to be
done, but what might be done on a future occasion if it
were thought proper to do so. Independent, however, of
what might possibly be done in the future, the properly
now proposed to be improved would stand istslated with
streets of twenty yards width all around it, and without
going into details, because, as Mr. Dove said, it
would be injudicious to do so, the total area
of the land now proposed to be dealt with, would be
8,946 square yards. Of that the public offices would
take 3,746 square yards, leaving 5,200 squire yards, as
a site for the new post-office, or any other buildings. Mr.
Newlands had valued the property in one way, and he (Mr.
Holme) had valued it in another ; but, without going into
details, he might mention that Mr. Newlands estimated
the purchase of the whole property at £35,472, while he
(Mr. Holme) estimated it £37,210. Adding both sums
together, and taking the mean, he found that the total
cost of the property would be £36,341. Tit., building of
the new pile of officf”, according to the plan they
had before them, would come to £18,208 ; he believed the
purchase from the Corporation of the site of the " Sara-
cen's Head " would be something like £l2 000, and thus
they had a t tel cost of £66,519. Against that they had
the sale of property in Cornwallis-sheet, and 5,200
square yards of land in Dale-street, surrounded by
twenty four yard street', and these he estimated weu d
bring bout £39,000, although, in his conscience, he be-
lieved he might pot down 110,000 more, so much would
the property in Dale-street be enhanced by the improve
meaty which would be made. Deducting, however, the
£39,000 from the £66,549, there would be a
balance left against the public, as the chairmen of
the committee had stated, of £27,519. It was for the
Council then to consider whether they would not lay the
foundation of such a great public improvement, which had
been already twelve months in agitation. While it
remained undecided they were losing the interest on the
Saracen's Head land, and it was that consi leration which
induced the Health Committee to press the matter As
regarded the improvement itself, it could not be doubted
that the exterminating the inhabitants of that wretched
district—(laughter) —he meant the destruction of the
houses there, would be a great good, and that it would
also open up a large mass of property for the com-
mercial interests of the town. He admitted that it was
the place of individuals to provide there own places of
business, but it was alwiTs the duty of a public body to
show them the example in improvement. He believed
that the plan then before them would be an improve-
ment. It was not necessary to carry out the new street,
though it was market on the plan to show what might be
done at a future day; but, believing that under any cir-
cumstances it would be a great public improvement, he
should support the recommendation (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Alderman PARKER expressed his determination to
support the arnendtnett. When he was a member of the
committee the complaint was that the offices were in too
noisy a situation. They consulted Mr. James Holme, and
he procured for them the Coruwellis-street building.
That wig a quiet and convenient situation, and yet now
they wanted to return to a noisier situation than the
first.

Mr. Honsoa denied that Cornwallis-street was a con-
venient situ,ition for the public offices.
Mr. J. R. JEFFERY cmplained that the question was not
put before them in its entirety or in-egri,y. It was true
the plan showed what the Health Committee desired
ultimately to carry our, but they had selected a particular
spot for immediate action ; and instead of the result being,
as Mr James liolme hid stated, a profitable transaction,
by purchasing the particular portion which was marked
on the plan, he (Mr. Jeffery) submitted that it would
be a very serious loss to the Council if the proceedings of
the committee were to be confirmed, seeing that they
would proceed at once to the prchase of a portion of land
marked on the plan—a proceeding which would improve
every property of which i, was intended they
should ultimately become the purchasers. It was
an unfirtunate circumstance that the Heal h Committee in

their desire for improvement should have fixed on a piece
of land, the purchase cf which would enhance the value
of the neighbouring property, •hich was held by two indi-
viduals—Lord Derby and Mr. Cross, of :!;haw-hall, who
would Le greatly benefitted, but at the cost of the in-
habitants of Liverpool. Had the selec•ion fallen on a
part of the borough .here the corporate estate was
situate, and where the investment would improvs corporate
property, he could understand it, but he was at a loss to
understand why the Health Committee eheuld have
selected that particular spot of g.-ound w',ich would espe-
cially benefit the two individuals to whom he had referred,
and enhance property which they would afterwards have
to purchase. The plan as a whole might be desirable, but
he submitted there sere other parts of the town pressing
on their immediate attention with more force than this
particular locality. Bold-street required to be widened.
Accident upon accident had occurred there, and so also in
Church-street, which equally required widening.
(Laughter.) They had expended a large sum of
money in widening Lord-street, and now that street was
complete to the prejudice of Church-street, and BAd-street.
He might be charged with partiality, but he denied he was
actuated by any such motive. As to the view taken by
Mr. Alderman /Lime, namely, that he would support it if
the improvement ware made at the expense of the rate-
pavers, but would oppose it if out cf the borough fund, he
(Mr. Jeffery) thought that was a very extraordinary grotto d
to tyke, beeause ae public representatives they should be
equally careful of all p irtions of the public purse - the
rats on the inhabitants as well as the Corporate
property. _ _

BRANChER asked if it was the intention of the
Health Committee to purchase the whole of the site of the
"Saracen's Head ? '

Al:. JAMES HoLmn replied that it wae, and that they
would pay the Corporation for the land.

Mr. Stiinr. thGught Mr. Jeffery's argument in opposition
to the recommendation most absur.-3, that they should not
effect any improvement however desirable, because it m;ght
enhance the property of somebody else. As guardians of
the health of the people, it was their duty to carry out every
possible improvement which wonld tend to that end, and
such an improvement was the one in question. It would
be a benefit to remove the wrotched buildings with which
the 1, cality was crowded. It would be true economy also
to do so, because in removing the people from temptation
by forcing them to reside in better localities, they would
undoubtedly effect a saving in the punishment and repres-
sion of vice,
Mr. Alderman Routs suggested that it would be better
to decide the matter at ones than to postpone it, as the
Financ3 Committee were desirous to dispose of the land in
same way.

The amendment was:then put to the vote, and lost by
20 to 21. The voting was as follows :
For : Aldermen Chilton, Bold, Horafail, Parker, Turner,