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London, England, 1808-05-11 00:00:00

R EVERSIONART GRANTS.

the order of the day
for the second reading of the Bill to restrain the
granting of certain Offices in Reversion, for a
limited time.

•
The order beiug read,
Lord HAWILESBURT spoke to the following
effect :—•• My Lords, I rise to state to your Lord-
ships the grounds upon which I have formed the
°pinkie' that this Bill should be read a second
tune. This Bill is the result of an investigation
instituted 1,1 consequence of two special recom-
mendations to His Majesty, from Commissioners
authorized to inquire into vied affairs, and to sug-
gest a remedy wherever any thing was found de-
fective.- I am far from !dating, that because an
inquiry has been going on fur some time, and the
present measure has been the fruit of it, that it is
therefore right, and ought to be necessarily adopt-
eil ; on the contrary, I am inclined to think, that,
with resptct to the consequence of this tneasure,
it will appear an innovation upon the iumient Con-
stitutioa of the realm. In stating this much, I
have no objection to add, that I sin not disposed to
find fault because it is not wholly free from defect ;
or that I am not therefore deterred from doing all
that can be done in furtherance of the views of His
Majesty, when he recommended the inquiry.—
When the Bill was lately under consideration, I
stated, that if I was called upon to agree to a rule
that should indefinitely regulate and re-train all
reversions, I would give it my decided negative.—
This I would de alma two ground:: tst, live-ease
a case was not made out; and, idly, if • ground
was made out, I thought it natural and desirable,
before we came to a decision, where there was
nothing peremptory or pressing, that the House
should know the general result of the inquiries
of the Committee, and the whole of the regu-
lations which they meant to adopt. I would
think it right that the House should be in. pod-
session of die whole of the in stein intended, so
as that the House should not be 'cam itted to a
partial or improper measure, of the deficiency of
which they were not aware, merely because they
did not see the whole bearing and extent of the ge-
neral plan. I stated my objections to the former
Bill upon these two grounds, without any reference
whatever to the measure in • constitutional point
of view. Upon that occasion, I urged only these
two objections, and I did not dwell upon how far
the question might or might not affect the Prerogoi
tive of the Crown. I stated then, that Reversions
did not tend to increase the influence of the Crown,
but that in my opinion they rather tended to dinsi-,
nish it. Not knowing to what the charge was to
lead, and ignorant as we were of the principles to
be grafted upon it, I did sot think, in its then shapes
it ought to be adapted. With a view, lionevtr,
to assist the Comuumioners to prosecute their in-
quiries, I for one would not have objected to its
being sent to a Committee, and would have reemn-
wooded that course, but the House thought pro-
per to reject that Bill. Such being the fate of that
measure, the House of Commons have now sent
up another Bill, different in its preamble and its
enactment. It does not state that the grante.e• of
all Reversions is lied, and ought to be abolished
but that with a view to inquiry into the state of our
civil affairs, it is right to suspeud such grants for
a limited time. The Bill doe, not question or
dispute the Prerogative. The Commissioners
merely say, that during an inquiry into the civil
department of the state, it is expedient to suspend
the grants of places in reversion, aiiieb may in-
crease the difficulties of the remedies Pi/Ilia:neat
may wish to apply, in consequence of the result of
such inquiry, when complete. Were it found ex-
pedient to abolish a place, the Reversionary Grant
of it would increase the diffi,:ulty of such almlit ion ;
but the present Bill would prevent that nico,ive-
nience. This is all the good to be expected from
the measure; and I confess it as the same time
%hews the little necessity there is for it, as it is not
likely that His Majesty, apprised of such inquiries,
and for what purpose, *mild bestow, pending in-
quiry, such grants, so as to continue defects that
ought to be remove I, moil to limit the ojwratiou of
such regalations as may Ise deeasel etpulieut. I

think it, however, 'better to proceed ;tithe way
than, hy an address. to fetter thesexerche of tl e
Pro:rowan' ea of the Crowe, which latter course
appears to we objectionable in titbit light, mad •
also derogatory to the privileges of your Lord-
ships. I do not mie,ui to deny the rig)* cf ;
either House to advise His Majesty it the
exercise and 'application of • any brooch of tis
l'repogiative ; bet I think there is a great di'.
ference between making the change a legal ac
and saying to His Majesty, • You shalt not ear -
cise such Preiogative at all, though we admit you
have the right.' If, therefore, it be fit that 1:41
right should not be exercised at all, for a time, the
must coustittitioual and the [oust ungrateful. mode
of pro seeding is that now proposed, to make the
restriction au act of the Legislature. By adopting
this mode, as I have already stated, you do not de-
cide the general question, yeu do not touch ti e
principle, or give any opamou upon the merits or
demerits of this Prerogative. The Bill is Imre-
d owed merele in refereuce to the inquiry now going
ou, and at the recuniusendaition of the Crown, to
enable die Cosainhorioners to prosecntes their iii-
quirks with less difficulty. It cannot, iu my opi-
nion, prose in any vriy prejudicial to the Crowe in
the shape in which it is now proposed to you, and
upon these grouch I have been induced to move
Use second reading."
Lord REDCSDALL spoke to the following effect'
---'• My Lords, I. should not trouble your Lon -
ships, were 1 not deeply impressed with the dui -
gerous nature of this Bill. It is the first step •o
change the form of Government from that of Kink ,
Lords, nod Commons, into a Government of the
COWIDODS alone. Have the Commissioners staters
the object of their inquiries ? Have they declan
how 'far they mean to go, and what is the ultima t
extent and precise "adore of their meditated sy -
tem ? We have no informatiou upon the subject ;
amid yet we are called upon to adopt a part of a
plan, of which we are left in ignorance. lI e
present measure is liable to soother objection
similar one has already been rejected by roar
Lordships. It is not, I admit, conceived in ti e
same lauguage, but it is the same in principle ni.d
spirit. lou are thus called qpon to decide twice
whin the same Bill, and without any new ground
Ising laid to accept that which you have already
rejected. The suspending of a power for a limited
time is an expression objectionable in its nature ; it
implies a wain of confidence in a quarter where it
is to be wished doubt shoull never be entertaiued.
It betrays a want of confidence in the Crown, a
doubt of the due exercise of the Prerogative.—Hu-
mours abroad announce measures to he produced
which you will be compelled to resist if you wish
to preserve even the shadow of your Coustitution.
That Constitution counts in the balance of the
three powers of King, Lords, sad Cosissuons. The
niessures which rumour announce most alter that
Constitution ; for if the Crown is to be no
longer the source of honours, but they are
to flow from the House of Commons, then the
House of Commons must become the Executive
Government of the country. There will then be
no responsibility. A, it happened iu the Amen-
can war, the Ministers will deny ell responsibility,
and it sill be throwu upon the legislature, as it was
in that war, in which it was said, our fleets sailed
and our armies marched 1w Act of Parliament.
The evil, however, will hot rest here.—The tioverr.-
meat must become a republic ; and a republican
Government, in this country, must become a ty-
nieuy, and thus, all will end in a despotic wryer' -
must. I consider this bill like the last ;—1 consider
it the first step to a great revolntion, that will de-
grade your Le:chilli's'', and affect the dignity of
the Crown, iu, as it appears to me, a criminal eh-
grey. I have a third objection to this bill. It is
part of a more extended system, which we do nut
coinpreliehd, and which there appears a determi-
nation to carry. Your Lordships should theiefore
take care, that this is not un experimeut of the
other House to try your tinnuess, and ascertain
whether they cannot make you acquiesce in that
which you have rejected. The former bill war
more fair and candid than the present one. Its
object was clear and definite, but here you do not
see the purpose and the end. I do not, however,
expect that you will reject the present bill. I
have stated my objections, not with the hope of
such a result, bat with • view to enter my protest
against it, as the first of a series of measures, which,
if adopted, will overturn a Constitution, which has
been long the admiration of all other nations. It
is by your firniuess alone, that Constitution is to be
preserved, and if you maintain your character, vote
may pre.erve it. VQII may preserve it, if you have
only courage to *hew that you du not approve the
act that would owerturu it."

Earl (;aosctrua--•• 1 do not think that the
Croats has any thing to appreb.;ad from the pre-
sent Bill, and therefore Idu not oppose it. 11.41-Ped
I did not think that it could meth acv opposition.
As to ita proposed iil/jtct, for my part 1 think it a
weak and iaetheaent 'erasure; but as it is HI 4ralat to
allay the irritation in tile pnblie mind, which tr.e
fact of the former Bill may haft peodo,:ed, and
imam probably answer that purpose, I assent to it—
rather than there should be no la.. at ail. 1 agree
that there is something ohjecuonalle in the preen.-
hle. I dislike the terra • suspemion.' I also dis-
like the introducing the inqutiry in the edit
House, thinking as I do that there ought to he me
reference at all. The Noble and Learned Lord
atedesdalt) thick• it wont•! be more de. ent
if it came in the shape of a recommendation
from the Throne. New Ido coaceive, that there).
a recommendation to this purpose in all the
speeches from, the Throne, at the commence-
ment of every seision. If they do not tenure a
direct intention to that eirect. they are at lea•rt
sanction. I hope the Committee of the House*, •
COM °belle will pursue their inquines, and l am
the more anxious, from the high opinion I bast of
the Geutletaau aho is at the head of that Ciao--

mittce, and because I see an utitlerhanil' deter.
not, I admit, an avowed one, tope, as
and to that COUlillittet. (lino hour! from this
(Ippesitiu4 Bench.) 'l'he orewitt Bill Isar another
comineudatiou : The Adams% of the City of Lon-
en is ia its favour, pod otlivr f;orisoratiows breathe
the saute spirit. 11'here a ninianre then is so., .
pular, :Noble Lords ought to be sure that thclir op-
ration is rot influenced by prejudice or leassion.
1 should Uinta that it mu-t have oriKiluded to some
tnisentimptiou of as of a revolutionaty
tendency, ar.d pea-laps the e%preasion of reform,
which 1 applied to it on a tower OCCOMOo, may
have contributed to excite that ulacm ; but I had
TO such meaning. 1 only meant, that the gteater
au abu..e is, the sooner it is net:ow:ay to int: AU end
to it. as delays only increased time dieivolty. It
was in thitt sense I used the word reform."
The Eirl'of Mutsu did not thud: that time Bill
ought to be rejected-on account of the rejeation of
• the foriuer measure, but that it °tight to la...dis-
cussed upon its own userits. His of to it
was, that it could not effect what it proposed to
do, and that 110 ground was made out for it. He
expected to hear that it would have produced a pc.

culinary easing, but no itch attempt was 111:14iP.—
lit lisped lie had never sliewn such au anxiety for
places for hiinaelf or his connexions, its to subject
him to the suepicion of Advocating n sore in the
(:o restitution, that drained its strength. If lie a us
to be the ailvenate of such a cause, it must he
from mental perverseness, or some defect in his
mural feeling. What he teamed was, that some
connexion should be made out betweYSl the alleged
abuse and the proposed remedy, from whence he
might see whether the latter was adequate to the
purpose. Ile thought he could make nut a lieut.r
case in defence of that which was presumed an
evil, than hail been mink out in opposition to it.
Ile thought the exercise of the Prerogut:ve iii grunt-
ing Iteversimis a as not extninigance, but ceconoiny.
In the tale of merit so striking into reostire reward,
Jtt was pecuniary saving to grout reversiou, in-
stead of giving money. A Noble Earl (Grosvenor;
bad urged the ivecesai ty of correcting old abuses,
And he might be charged with defending this prac-
tire, as oar Of lung stainliitg. At the commence-
ment of the practice it was, lie admitted, censu-
nide; because it was giving to the then Kiug both
the whole existing patrosiuge and the reversion ;
but if, after a lapse of 300 years, the Crown is kit
nothing but reversions to grant ; if resersious are
all that are left to support the splendour of the
Crown, and give it its due weight in the etfusti-
tation; then it is indecorous riot only% the Crown,
but to the rountay, to take away from the Cmnn
all dist the country alio.; s for its support. The
friends of the Bill have boa.,ted its popularity. It
was that delusion which was Htteuipted to be prac-
tised upon the public he made his princii.al objection.
It might have been well to have corrected those
abuses ire the first instance, bnt to stop now would
be to extinguish the power of tile Crown. It was
rust true that it ws.s recomini ruled by the Throne
in the speech at the commencement of each toeS.
nom The speeches receiumend erconomy, but
this was want and waste. Ile shonid rather think
that the 'mason, is a cover for oilier inuovatious ;
and without meaning any reflection upon the iser-
sous who Inn I,;lit it in, that, with regard to the
ishject proposed, it is merely delusive. His Lord-
ship expressed his wish that Ilia Majesty'r present
Ministers had come forward more decidedly
iu expressing their sentiments respecting the pre-
sent Bill. They had, it is tree, (one Rt. Ilon. Gent.
iu particular,) bent their intention to what wascalled
the Regulation of the Assessed Faxes, or, more
properly, to imposing an addition of taxes, which
not only pressed hard upon individuals, but be-
Caine an additional heavy burden upon the r oldie
at large.: and, by so doing, they had made a kind
of set-oft; to divert the attention of the public from
the present object of this Bill, which went to the
alleviation of the public burdens. by the abolition
of sinecure places. His Lordship, then proceeded
to call the attention of the I loose to what he con-
lathers] one of their most sacred duties, to guard
against the effects of impeder demote, and to erect
a Psllsdieut to the Prerogative of the Throne. when
its just rights were attacked by the popular branch
of the Leguillitul-e. Such, under 'Reticular circum-
stances. he considered to be the right of the Crown,
with regard to the disposel of places in reversion;
mid he notild net but be of opinion, that the public
sentiment lead been mooch misled upon the subject,
end tonal led to eistertain very exaggerated expecte-
tioae as to the effects of this measure, as if they
supposed that the Bill before the House would
prove any favourable acquisition to the public.
The Iliad of MORTON said, he did not wish to
take up much of the time of the House in express-
ing his sentiments re-vetting the object of the pre-
sent Bill. In itself, he thought it would prove in-
efficacious, Had disappoint the expectations of its
promoters. But not only so, his chief objection to
the 11111, lee must erifie.s, arose from his viewing it
as an is•tack npuli the ',larder x and independence
of that Howe of Parliament. Ile, therefore,
called upon their Lordships to make a stand iri the
present instance, enlists's-nog, as he did, that the
circumstance attetelnie the introduce.tnn of the pre-
sent Bill, mod the manner iu which it was pressed
upon their Lordehips, after two sisuilar ones. which
had been brought up from the forum- House, were
rejected, diseovered a spirit of encroachment, which
their I..ordships were bound to rein* from every
principle of cotaistency 111S41 regard to their Own
independence, us well as to the *mud priaciples of
the Constitution. He could not Depurate this Bill
from the view of the concomitant circumstances at-
tending its introduction into that House, from the
whole of which eirenuistinces. »hit+ his Lordship
recapitulated sat some length he declared it as his
opinion. that there was a fixed determination in the
other House of Parliament to attempt to fume
their Lordships to adopt nu opinion in direct op-
position to what they had forinerly and expressly
declared. Upon tine vowel, if there were no
other, he should give his express negative to :hie
Bill, as he considered it to be a direct attack upon
the pr'nifetzes and independence of their Lonlships'
House. The sooner, therefore, that a stand was
Made grille such increasing encroachments, the
better fo. the (:osistitiition of the country.
Lord Hot t. 4 en argued ut somelength in favour
tsc the 14/11, and pii..utd oist the varying and mien-
: ae-t a•.!liteents the Noble Lnhis (Resiesdale
Siorto eild of the Noble limed (Moire:. The

fanner Noble Lords considered the present Bill as
tending to the destruction of the l'onstitution;
ou the other !mud, the Noble Earl consi-
dered the present Bill as a (MI of delusion ; that it
held out, and would produce, no substantial re-
form; and that it held out a mistaken pledge to.
this effect to the public. fly It ft it to thole Noble
Lords, who scierallj oppo-eil the Bill, to aeule
the differences existing betttet-it them on the sub-
ject. He had on hesitation- in arkitowlet,ting the
cousisteuce of those Noble Lords who objected to
the Bill ou account of the clamour apish loud been
raised • against reversionary grants; ut the same
time, he must always think, that the sentiments of
the people, when st roitgliexprearetLastbil fuel been
in the print instance, from London, 'oreester,
&c. ought to carry along uith them astrung recoup.
mentlutton in favour of the preskut Bill. &Bowing
that the present measure was inefficacious and in-
&Went, still he could not help thinking that the
rejectioteof it world prove impolitic and unwire:—
ere the Noble lord, in illustration of his argu-
ment. entered into au hoitorical discussion of the
cooduct of. the Cortes iu Spain, in the reign of
Charles V., and likewise of the British Parliament.
in the mime, of Charles I. and James 11. sliewing
thereby the flamer arising from Parliament's re-
sisting tie wishes of the people at large.
Lend Sorteas spoke in favour of the Bill. consi-
dering that it would tenth to strike et the root of
that secret influence, which was so injurious to the
Feet helmets of the nation. lie also seethed it sue-
cess, to prevent that Impeller discontent which he
was afraid the repeutell rejection of this measure
by their Lordships, would occasion.
The question being repeateille called "for, it
was then put, whets the second reading of the Bill
a/ VI carried without a division, and ordered to be
reported to-morrow.—Adjourned.

NOtTEE or COMMONS.

The Chairman of the Gs:summand I..hetinn Committee
repo: lee' that the tientlenien Named in the r..tints were nut
attic elected, and that the ilutiuoraMt: Anzoudian C,:thraae
anti %%snails Holmes, Esi "en &tic circled, and that the
richt of Election wee vein, d in the Mayor and Burcessce rehi-
dent and aon•n.:dcnt.

T;.c Drpnt Ors}, of the Crown attended Li) order ot the
House, sad imam& I the rei ern
Ihe thrthir runriderdiou of the Report of the Lunatics
Rill us. layered twit Thursday, us the motion of Mr.
W. W NTY7C T._ _

The Militia Pay Pill oaa read a third time, and passed.
The lin& Pay Bill was read a third tilae, and
parsed.
The Militia Ailjutaute Bill was mad a third time, and
The tilt se million and one million and *half laehrgai r
Bills Pdls, s ii. 1,,11.11/11itt d, and Report to Le taken tato
tan.•:dt ration to- morrow.

Mr. H t rat!..,s nsuvrd thr or+ r of the day fur the Cone-
rnittal of Ow Bill for itopossag elutier an ready made corks
iinpurted. it was his intention to lower, as a resit:titian, in
the 11111 l that there should he had a duty of two
shillings eecuv pound oeicht of such corks, with view
of pioti etint: tiie raw ntaterte. The re•nlntruu was thru
earr:eil, aril the rrport oas ordered to be Liken into cio.si-
deraiii.ii .
I in the 'notion of Mr. WYWWW, the farther consideration
of the report MI the Pauper and Ctinietal Lunatics Bill, was
!Hotpot. tl until Thonoisr moo.
Mr %VI, cc to broil :tilt up the report of the Committee
on the alt• license dein..., which are agreed to, and a•L'itl war
ordered to he larought in at the resolutions.
Mr. [luau titan ',permuted
sthe annual additions to the
Nati 111 l al richt, add annual charges Lidded to tire
&reit to lit on the
Slit 1101 TE POPIIAM.
- - -

Mr. I,usitterroN .441 far papers relative to
the proceedings of the Court of le mies bench, in
the cause of Paxton awl others v. Popham. Ile
stated lie a:mid not make any comment., as he
understood the motion was not intended to" be
oppusvd.
Sir llosts POPHAM next rose, bat 'peace in so
very low a tone, as to he sourcels audible in the
gallery. We, however, niiderstoi:d bin to ay.
that for his part lie had no objection to the produc-
tion of the papers moved for the Hon. Gentle-
titan--although they referred to a transaction to-
tally of a private nature. Ile stated, that about
twenty years ago he had been engaged is acme
niertunitile spceulximis, to one of which the papers
now moved for had a reference. With respect to
the plea of illegality, which had been entered ou
the IN • ,ird, imtlie proceedings of this cause, iu the
Court of King's Bench, lie protested his ignorance
of such a circumstance, until within a very short
period. The cause of difference he had repeatedly
solicited to have settled by no amicable arrange-
mem, or by a refineute to en honourable arbitra-
tine. He beg‘eil the attention of the lionse to
the letter of a Mr. M'Arther. which he read, and
which declared the readiness of that person to make
affidavit that hr (Sir Hoinr Pophatn) VMS totally
unacqueiiiited, either directly or indirectly. with
the setting up of such a plea. And he had only,
upon his honour as a Man, to declare to that
House, that such was the fact. Such en assertion,
lie trusted, was sufficient to clear his character in
the consideration of that House, and was it perfect
abjuration of 'soy moral guilt. It was rather a sur-
prising circumstance, that on erery question af-
fecting him. the principles of honour and law were
put, by those who arraigtun hint, in a contradictory
position. Thus, when the law was in his favour,
the objections against him ware,grounded upon the
dictates of honour—and when honour ass on his
side, he was then opposed upon the prneisious of
the law.

Mr. LLIBINOTON considered the gallant Cap-
tain mistakeu in his view of the motives by winch
he was actuated in moving for these papers. It
was by no means his intesitiou to comical.' the gal-
lant officer for profiting by any plea, which the
law of the, land, as applieshle to his par-
ticular case, allowed him. The object of the
motion, and the necessity for protineingthose papers,
were to prove to the lionse, that not only an illegal
act had been committed, but that the gallant Offi-
cer had pursued a ',nitro of thi". kind of traffic, in
opprerition to the lan of the Land. With respect to
Mr. 111*Awliar, he emp.idered the gallaut
in thefte proceeding-. equally (.om,eeted with lira ;
and lie had only to observe, that it was not a little
extraordinary to find the very alio rested his
own defence on his ignorance of the iolutinn of
the law, should himself set up upon record the
plea of illegality. The great duty he had in view
was, to prove to Parliament and the country, that
stuns of money had beeu paid to iistliv:chlais, and
particularly to the gallant 06r-er, out of the droit,
oT the Admiralty, presumed as comptaraitsvue hit

'hisses, arising en tile part of the personsso compen-
sated, from au illegal course of proeceilitig.
Sir HOME POPHAM replied, that it the Hon.
Gentleman would be good enough to peruse his
memorial with attention, be would find that he
was not altogether, at the time when he engaged
in the concerns of the antic., convinced of
the illegality of that _proccidiug ; and ia his opi-
nion, the assuuteuance which he had received iu
India, almost amounted to au abrogation. And,
with respect to the plea of illegality, even if it was
true, which was tiot the case, that he bad advised it,
still it was to Ir recollected that it was long subse-
quent to the execution of the original measure.
The motion for the production of the papers
wa.s then put and carried.
Mr. 'AMIN utuN then moved, " That there he
laid before that House a Copy of the Memorial of
Sir (Lime Popham, praying payment for the pro-
ceeds of the Etruscs."—Ordered.