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London, England, 1807-03-27 00:00:00

determined on recalling that extent of concession
a determination whiol, I repeat, nethini but th
striking knowledge.l the misapprehension that ex-
isted, cou•d in any manner justify. No man can
blatne the feelings which operated with them on
that occasion ; never was a bolder resolution taken
up by any set of men; but it was a resolution
which, on an appeal to your own bosoms, on a
liberal consultation of your own feelings, your
Lordships must, I am sure you will apioove—
f Neer! dear!). In accordance with that risolu•
tion, on the following Friday, I solicited An inter-
view with His Majesty, to propose the noiffificatifin
•
of tne Bill to the provisions of the Aft of the hob
Parliament in the year 1793. The proposal was
received with the accustomed and gracious conde-
scension of His Majesty ; bus, on more mature
consideration, difficulties of no ordi. ary nature pre-
sented themselves. What arguments, I ask, could
be adduced to support the propo itinn of opentog
the avt ones of the military vervicv ra the
and excluding the Dissenters? We th n perceived
that a more extensive sacrifice must be maiie,
as it was implafticeOle to remove the difficulties
which existed, and to carry 'I in a marina ttlitaiilC
to our own view • of its necessity and advantage.—
We knew that we might be called upon to aiow.r
questions respelling the alterations which had taken
place. Our opinions on the ex *climate of Catho-
lic concession were known n the country ; we had
no ground for changing those maintain; and here
again, as dutiful servants -if the pnolic. yet anxious
to support one own conviltion and consistency, ie
determined on withdrawing altogether the measure,
which, under a misapprehension. had been sub.
witted to he attention of the Legislature. Did not
such condua evince the utmost extent of desire to
remove any w'easiness which might exist in the
breast of His \laje,ty, most particularly as arising
from a mutual misconception? Independent of
this painful sacrifice, for, undoubtedly; with our im-
pressions of its necessity and policy, painful it must
be, there remained another most important con-
sideration. Parliament had the measure before
it ; it had received a warm and powerful support.
It was impos-ible to conclude, tint t! :e measure
wadi be allowed to drop ; and Ministers must pre-
pare for an exami .atinn why they brought it
fot ward, and what were their motives for the
alteration. To such interrogatories they could
not remain silent ; and, therefore, it would become
a necessity, imposed upon them, to state the causes
of the new re-illation. To aft otherwise, would be
a palpable dereliaion of the duties wOicli the Ser-
vants of th^ Crown owed to the country and to the
Parliament. But was the measure even totally
droppe.t for the present, it might and would Ise
probably resumed in another shape. The great
measure of Catholic Emancipation, which we hod
strenuously t ndeavoured to keep of from the
Throne, might, possi rly, he submitted to the din
cession of Parliaments and, cutely, His Mojesty's
late Ministers were bound, by every principle of
good faith and consistency, to support those mai-
along, which recommenited the adoption of a
mil.l. liberal; and conciliatory system toirasids every
deicription of His Majesty's Irish subjoins: When,
tometorto a demand was made on llis Majesty's
late servants to give a 'written pledge 01 never
bringing forward any measure in favour of Catho-
lic Claims, or on any sobjett connected with that
question, they were called upon to give up every
feeling of their hearts, every suggestion of their
judgment, to sacrifice eve' y prospre of submitting
to the consideration of their Sovereign, at any time,
and under any circumstances, a proposition which
would best provide oir the seperate interests of Ire-
load, and cement the general security of the em-
pire. And here let me impress upon the Noble
Lords on the opposite side of the House. the
great importance of an immediate attention to
the welfare of that country. There is not,
I assure them, a sukijeft of greater delicacy, nor one
which will more frequently recur to their observ-
ance, and produce more painful sensations. It
they are determined not to turn their minds to that
consideration, or not to apply to it that enlarged
and liberal policy, which it so imperiously requites,
then do I contend that the fate of the empire is not
sate in their hands. With such views as I myself
and my Colleagdesentertained,could it be expeded,
or could it be consistent pith any sense of duty, to
bind ourselves by any positive pledge, particularly on
a subje... upon which we entertotaid so decisive,
and, I repro-, the most cone& opinion 1 No.—
It was necessary for the faithful discherge of
our engagements to our King and County, that
we should preserve the same extent of disCre-
tion, and the same unlimited exercise of our du-
ties, as we possessed on our entrance into office.—
Have the Noblr Lords, on the opposite Bench, ob-
tained their offices by entering into such stipula.
Lim.? Have they bound themselves down, by a
written pledge, never to submit to the Sovereign a
sreation. in Whiels, under any atateoe' ashes'
cm the Continent of Europe, or in Ireland, or in
Great-Britain, the vital interests of his Throne and
Empre might be sesiMisly involved? It they hoed
so thesis them the British Con ss i tt Moo does
not exist one hour. What, I asks is the oath
of a Privy Counsellor? To state, to the best
of his judgment, his opinion, without fear or
apprehension; to advise die King openly and ho.
needy s and to consult his interests and not his
wishes—after ! Arai !) For that advice he is rr
spuosible to Parliament and his country. And. my
Lords, recolleCt that Ireland comprehends no small
part of your interests. If invasion be the ohjed of
your determined enemy, he knows where that at-
tempt can be best filed. Should he succeed in that
attempt, ey the disaffoeion of a great proportion of
the population, and that Parliament should call
upon His Majesty's Ministeta, bound down by suds
stipulations, sod ask them the causes which have led
to this disastrous issue, and the reasons of not
adopting the measures of preservation ? They
answer, they were ant free ageuts; that rt soon-
sibility pre-supposes a freedom of will ; that
this emote of the British Empire was cut out from
the map I:Am-mittend to their care; and that, as they
were not free, so they are trot responsible. Admit,
tioy Lords, this doettioc, (or a moment, and you de-
istroe the tort of the Constitution, whicii premeds
the Moisorchy. Destroy that Conwitotional maim,
that" the King can do no wroog," and you int-
, metliately sap the security of tee Throne, and
site tigoUr to tbalmonsti taus, horrible, I had sand,

1 diabolical principle, by which a King is btought to
' the bar of his subjyas. Whether 1 have Feu
this subjei in a fair view, it is for your Lordships
to decide; but, with the, sentiments I feel, and. the
convidion I have on the subject, I would afford an
instance of theblackest turpitude, &el I tint endeavour
to communicate my alarms to this House. For my
' own part, I did conceive it due to toy own character,
and to the character of my official Colleagues, to en.
ter before your Lordships, into the fullest exemination
of the causes and circumstances which have led to
the late changes in His Majesty's Councils. That
sense of duty which must, on all occasions, power-
fully operate, was, on the present occasion, particu-
larly increased. The anxiety we felt to forward a
proposition of individual security and general hap-
piness, has been perv. rted by the grossest calumny.
into an unjustifiabl: a tempt to impose on the judg-
ment and conscience of my Sovereign. Our cha-
racters have b•en subjected, not only to unnseri•ed
slander, but the confidential Minutes of the late Ca.
hinet have been published in a newspaper, in a muti-
lated and garbled state, for the purrs. see of giving cur-
rency and effea to the falsehoods and malignity of
those who have libelled us. [The Noble Lord
alluded to the statement made in a letter, signed
" .4 P,olestani." which appeared in i 1 Morning
Paper.] I Ise respes'afut language in which we re.
presented to liis blej-sty our dissent to the written '
pledge that had been demanded of us, has been, in
part, inserted in that print ; when we declared our tin-
willingness to be restrained, from time to Pin a from
submitting to His Majesty ccrt. in me s6tll es fur his
eiteitio* ; the three last words 1 repeat, for ;us id CI.
area, as they have been porposely suppressed, to con-
fir m the Jeltision of our having el tempted to torte
the Royal mind. IVhen, my Lords, I was caked,
to the Conns:ls of my, Sovereiga, I entered into n i
engagements, but those of any duties—those, I
trust, to have performed faitlifuily. From the ex-
perience I have since had, my retiring from orfice,
1 feel, in a personal view, a release how a burden
becoming every day more irkeerne; and whatever
the Noble Lords on the opposite side may feel, I
neither succeeded to a Jed .ef rorra, nor do I resign
one to my successors. The military, financial, and
commercial interests, will, I. presume, be found to
have improved. Our peliticat relations, though
yet extremely difficult and arduous, are consi-
derably ameliorated. I did fondly hope that much
benefit would ensue from healing the animosities
of Ireland, from allaying its., distradions, and
promoting its happiness.. If a Government
should be found to exist upon the principle
of reviving those religious dissenjons which hove
torn that loeg distraded country ; if, I say, then e
exist men who have fixed their power on that basis
then I pronounce it a great crime, and an extreme
calamity. For, if such a system of policy should
be ale,' upon, nit only in Leland, but in this
country, if the reign of bigotry and intolerance
should be revived. no extent of imagination can de.
pia the horrors and 'navies which will inevitably
ensue." The Noble Lord concluded his able and
luminous speech, by a return of Isis sincere cheeks
for the marked attention and indulgence he had
received from their Lordships.
Lord SID 'IOC l'el--" 1 should not, my Lords,
have trespassed on your time, had I not beeu anxi•
ous to add my testimony to that of my Noble
Friend, who has, with such candour in the detail,
and credit to himself, disclosed the whose transac •
tions I am fully persuaded, from whatever I have
been able to collet on the subjza, as well as from
the well-known charaaers of the persons concerned.
that the Bill, which has been the cause of the present
change of affairs, would never have been brought be-
fore Parliament, had not the Noble Lerd and h:s
Ft i:nd been in Jueed to believe, that the wishes of the
Sovereign were friendly to it, or at least his permis-
sion was given to lay it before Parliament. I du admit,
my Lords, it is highly injudicious in men entrusted
with the Government. of the country, to awaken
arid ex rte expeaatims, in which there is even a
probability they may he deceived in the issue; and
certainly this objection applies with greater force,
es the ends proposed to be effeaed are momentous
and important to the nation colleetively ; yet, pet mit
me to state ae;aia to your Lordships, that from the
statement which has been laid before the House, as
well as from the general admission of all parties,
we have every reason to conclude, that His Ma-
jesty's late Ministers concluded themselves with that
caution and prudence becoming their charatteristic
responsibility as Ministers of the country, and men
possessing the utmost public confidence—a confi-
dence which they have received from their well.
tried services, and of which they have, and ever
will have, reason to be proud. The Noble Lord
had [bought proper (though perhaps others would
not have ailed a, he has done, in the same situation)
to state in the most full and explicit manner to your
Lordships,. every circumstance connected with the
change which has taken place. I approve of the
1 argurneass drawn by the Noble- Baron from.his state-
ment of fans, and being equally anxious to preserve
that sacred and fundamental maxim of our national
polity, that " the Icing can do no wrung." I am
glad the Noble Lord determined to refuse subscrib-
ing any article or agreement, which, by depriving
him arid his colleagues of all tree agency, would
inevitably involve the conduct and ehataeter of His
Majesty in the opinion of his suhjsas." The Noble
Lord proceeded in his statement to observe, that it
appeared from the objedion made by His Majesty,
on the subsequent representation of the affair, that
there had been a misconception between the King and
his Servants. " Indeed (continued he) it iservident,
from the objections on the one hand, and the ex-
planatioa on the other, that this misconception was
twofold, and existed no less ins the part of the
Ministers, than on that of their Royal Master.—Yet,
even front his Los dsbip's statement, some circurne
stances have transpired, which, in my opinion, make
this miscnocepton rather extraordinary. The dis-
patch, concerning which so much has been said,
did, when presented to His Majesty, appear only
to contain an extension of the Ad of 1791. to
, Office= of the Roman Catholic persuasion, serving
; it: His Majesty's armies in England and elsewhere.
And dim st had, as well at the ansiter, been sub.
mitted to His Majesty, there was no of jeason
whatever made by him, until this concession (which
firic was presented to the House a. a clause in the
Motley Bill) lecarne the subj -ft of general discus.
sins. Yet. when the matter had proceeded thus
tar, the maples of a certain prams are AWAL:IICti,

and he perceives it impossible to mate. any inch,
concession as that demanded by his Ministers.
shall not, however, attempt to explain this appall.,
inconsistPncy, especially as the Noble Low 14,
thought any further explanation on this rirbird
dieneeessary ; but has rested it merely tin the gette..4
•if misapprehension. Thus far l will state o, c.
House, that when a communication had beer. rer‘ir
to me on the subjeft, I was dechiedly of pi %,,e.
that since flatters had proceeded so fat, bale
w.is no alternative, but eithir to tepee! tin
Aft of the Irish Par lament in. taveor cff it,
Cada ilics, in the year 1793, or extend the
egrets of that eel tlitcughout the erapife.-..
There seemed to rue an absolute necessity, tilit by
Catholic Othcer should be universally conieesedle
privileges granted to him, locally, by the Gish Po.
,Lament t or, that he should be deprived ot all hit
privileges, by a positive An ot the Legislature,
pealing the Act which had so incautiously mituat
him with rights, which the very nature a: his oat.
Lary duty did not permit hint to enjoy, after lie had
passed horn II el crui to any other part ot th• sri 7th
dumioiutls. The hr appeared to inv the fairest ard
leas( el jedioriable mode of I.olloWili,g sip du.
sure, '1 last I conceived to bean aft of nisei-sit,.
founded on the consi.teocy ot Parliament; for I cis
vet could suppose that this House. nor tntfeed at.
branch of the Legislature, could be induced toes.
courage, much less to cot:firm, the Catholics, Slue
possession of pi ivilges, which must undertuice, or
eventually overturn, the barriers of nut se,. ie.:Comas
tution in Church and State ; I feel .sorry, that sacra
measure has been introduced at this pe•tio,t, since
I have always been interested in the conti;mi:apf
the present Ministry, conceiving it amply calculi:el
to remedy any inconvenience under whiea the Sta.
may labour, both on account of the ability and tr,
tegrity of the Members who compose it 8.,
much es I respeft them, I cannot but say, that
this transeCtion, they have at least forgottin tic
principles of the Constitution, in their eAgetne,A
fulfil their engaizements to the Cethalic Popula't
of Ireland. However, on this heed. I feel it r.
duty to state to the House. that neittler myself err
the Noble Loi.4 en W ,olsadt, have the milieu
rearm to attach any blame to ourcelves, as we acts
not present at the d &rent interviews alluded tn
the Noble Lord. Yoe, although lam as
friend as any_ man in the Frptte. tot ,e ric:
enmity and liberality towards our Catholic Hits.
subjeEts, yet I would always discriminate bersits
tokratten and pewee; and, on' this account, bad I
been present at these interviews, should net mei
shrunk from my ahoy, in declaring, that, it- :les
ver might be ;he consequences ot such a refuoli,
it was the bounJen duty of His Mejeete's
teas, to repress, rather than encnorage, the ersiri.;
of Catholic remonstrance and cP.-.nand. I tr:nd
have observed, that it would be much easier rode,-
: countenance them in the.commeneement, 0411 xi.
rest them in their progress to t'ie fop/ of the
I rone; and that, however we might b- inclined,
through motives of Clisistien charity, t, extend,
throughout all Religious Setts, the laeitr Its t t the
Constitution ; yet, we should guard, avirli ear
anxiety, and grateful VCIIILIOAt ton. the h. !twee sal.
u arks of our established Guyana-4E4a in Clanni
and Siete." . . .

Lord HAWK ESP.IIR.Y—" My Lords, thoiei
I ever feel a delicacy in entering on a sung,
where issue is joined between the Sovereign Ado
Subic& yet, as the Noble Lord has not theuttli
it his duty to be silent on this occasion, I shoal;
feel it an unpardonable violation of mine, ihoold !
not rise to answer ilia! part it die Noble Lore)
speech, where he would insinuate he had been ir.i•
fairly dealt with with ?vivid to t'.e pub' caeca
of those conferences which lie and his Fiiend
with His Majesty, on different occasions. NI
Lords, I have rather to lament this topic has hen
introduced, since there are ample means ti retool
the accusation. Long before I had been personally
acquainted with the transaCtions alluded to, I de
learned, through the inediem of publications, et
cause of t::e difference subsisting between NI
Majesty and His Ministers; but bow strangely are
widely different were those repreeentatioas trots
either the statement of the Noble Iced this eveavg,
or the plain trot:. I Soon after being called to de
high honour of filling one of the offices of Ministry,
I did request pet mission of Its Majesty to state tir
the public the principles on which we had seer:.
which he was graciously pleased to grant: t:1,1
s:atement will be found accurate. My Lords, :he
conduct of the late Ministry, with resped to the Wl
in question, w..s undoubtedly that which no styes
merits whatever could juicily. it was a surjel
upon which not only the mind of the Sovereign. id
that of the whole British nation, had lung since bees
made up; a subject frequently discussed, and as dos
negatived by unparalleled majorities ; if there vr.it
any other 'meg reason necessary to convince then
that such a theature would be attended with heel
defeat. they night have deduced such an argued&
from the eonsithe of that late invidious meant it
the Crown (though not It s so sit the people). 'cis,
1111 one occasion. found it his duty to retire trots
the Councils of His Majesty, on t'Ai, very questser
through a principle ol cotiseien‘e. Yet, *ken sky-
wards solicited to brill( the subject, so near Pt
heart, again before the Legislative Assembly re
iN
N Won. he. at the request of His Mej•cy, and.
hays, penetrated by a conviction 61 its inutility, a'
'termitud to contemns to the wishes of the fiiivatlSl.
and the people, and abandoned the-Dili. I will in
follow the Noble Lord's example, and enter. no Cl
0.-casion, into the great question of CatholicLmee
eipatioo. Hut thus far will
go. and avow, dote
we do not regard soma principles as tuadament.l
and unchangeable, it will ever be the Meant of a'dug discontent and anitnosity thmoglimit the e,
Aire. I have ever looked on the subjects' right
of
petitioning the Crown, and the indepiaalence
Judges of the Land. as tundameniai prnicipid°
the Constitution, and certainly not ices Ni must s•
esteem the principle. thac thinCeiveitinien: of ir
country, in all its branches, shall be I'm: SI•4111.
In this view of the subje *. I must lickuoale2gei
prefer, as some have even been rash enoao
derwminate it, the bigotry of the year Wei, sc..
use conduA et those who supported king it
Liam on the 'Fbrone of Eaglaiid,l to all te: t
spun schemes of modern unitive:tom. 1 wts
co.itese, anxious to hear what armaments
it
Noble Lord would adduce to 'nova that any ;
g sod would result :rem the =assize ; but u: