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London, England, 1822-03-28 00:00:00

on subjects imareimenediately connected their
drake. He could enure the Hon. Gentteam that
this subject had not• escaped the stientioo of his
Majesty's Government. and he hoped the commit=
nicatiun which be was alma to snake would *he* •
that they were by Ito meows disposed to uudervidue
its importance.. At the saute base he was stmt the
Hon. Gentlensed, would with candour admit that
the question was one that required much considers.
Lion. and that they could not approuchstiyclunige
in the ,long-ektblielted mode of adminosiering the
Criminal jatiCeAthe costar/ without due creation,
and regard to tbiyealodig wlncheess most correctly
felt of any'etitersbanl9 ate salministration of justice,
and particular Care not to di.turh the settled lied
well.grounded opinion -of its impartiality. Thee--
pretence of ages had operated to reader our present
system the most perfect system of criminal junspru.
deuce that existed in any country I and that mini-
deration imposed on them the ditty of proceeding
with the greatest caution in the adoption of soy
measure involving a change of any part of that aye-
tern. With respect t• the remedies proposed by
the Honourable Member for the evil 'which it was
desirable to remove, he was not prepared at once
to state a decided objection to the adoption of
his plan; but there did occur to him in the out-
set considerable objections to that plan. He un-
derstood the Honourable Member to propose, that
at one, at least, if not both of the Quarter Self.
ions, a Judge should attend to try crintioal insars..
making the grand apd petty juries that were then
in attendance co-operate with him in that service.—
That appeared to him to be impossible, without
having recourse to a measure, of the policy of
which great doubts were entertained among those
men who were most competent to give an opinion
from having the most particularly turned their at-
tention to the subject—he mesot that of adding to
the number of the Judges. That would be
a difficulty. which it would be necessary is the
first instance to surmount. He confessed there
were other objections that occurred, which appeared
to be of still greater magnitude. Any one who
had observed, the administration of the law by
the Magistrates at Quarter Sessions, must have
felt that the Greed and Petty Juries in at-
tendrince on those occasions were of a very di&
ferent description from those which attended
at the Assizes; and it was most desirable to
avoid any impression that at the new gaol delivery
cases would be disposed of with less care and atten-
tion than formerly ; for any feeling of that kind,
which was most likely to be produced by any sp.
Fearasceof diminished solemnity its the outward
orms of the sdatinistretion of the law in criminal
cases. could nut fail to weaken the impressios of
its justice in the minds of the people. Other diffi-
culties also would be found. As the law at present
stood, the Quarter Sessions for the different coun-
ties were required to be held in the seine week, it
.'would be necessary therefore to make some other
alteration in the law in that respect. By what ar-
rangement could they secure the attendance of the
Judge in all the different counties of • circuit
within the period of the same week f Take,
for instance, the October Quarter Session,. The
'Session was required to be held within a week
of the 11th October; if that fell ou a Sunday, the
Sessions would begin on the 19th. Term begins
Swabs Gap November. How they could .any ar-
ttogentent be adopted by which a Judge would be
enabled to attend at all the different town. within
Ins circuit to deliver the gaols. sous to be in lime to
attend the opening of the Term in Westminster? "
These were a fey: of the difficulties in the way of
any immediate alteration, which it required time
to consider of the best means of removing.
After the fullest consideration that his Majesty's
Government had been able to give to the sub-
ject, they hod determined, in the course of
the next winter, to make an experiment. to which
he hoped it would not be objected that it wee on
too limited a scale, of a third gaol delivery. in all
the counties of the Home Circuit, viz. Erisex,
Hertfordshire. Sussex, Surrey, and Kent. The
reasons which had induced the Government to select
the Home Circuit for this experiment were, in the
first place, the greater facility which it present.dl
fur the regular attendance of both Judge and
Counsel. who would not be carried to such • di,-
tance front the Courts in Westminster as would
prevent them returning in time for any business on
which their presence might be necessary ; and in
the next place, there were circumstances which ap-
plied to the home district, arising out of the vi-
cinity of those counties to the raetropolir,which might
make the couvenience of such an arrangement more
immediately felt. In Middlesex there were at pre.
sent eight gaol deliveries within the year, a distmc-
tioo which had been made solely with reference to
the locality of the metropolis ; and ou that prin-
ciple they proposed to extelid the system by way of
experiment in the first matance to the home coun-
ties.—(Dear, heir.)
Mr. LeYcusTua said, the effect of Ilse protraction
of the term between the two Assizes woe to keep per-
sons charged with felony a long time in coufinemeet
previous to trial, often without having committed
any crime at all, often for offences punishable ouly
by periods of imprisonment shorter in duration thou
that which they thud were compelled !deviously to
undergo. This was a system which called loudly
fur amendment, fur if imprisonment before iris)
was made longer than was necessary, it degene-
rated into oppression. A more frequent gaol
delivery was also desirable as a means of facilitat-
ing the improvement of prison discipline, by reduc.
i fig the number of persons in confinement, and pro-
muting time object so desirable to be attained, of a
regular classification of prisoners according to their
particular circumstances. He did not conceive
that such an arrangement would necessarily require
an increase in the number of the Judges. There
were now four in each Court, of whom one might
be spared for the purpose; end three Judges would
perform the additional circuits for the whole of
England in the same space of time which the whole
of the Judges occupied in the circuits at present.
Mr. •Poel. said he had omitted to observe that
nothing could be more unjust than that any addi-
tional expense should be entailed on the Judges by
soy measure of this nature ; and he was sure the
House would on no account consent to any arrange-
ment which would increase their burdens.—(Hear.)
Mr. Drcitmeort taw no reason why some of the
counties in' the Home Circuit, Hertfordshire lOr
instance, should havea preference over others. The
county of Somerset bad the great toes et Bath,

\ *

oilich was as fertile in Mate as the marripaiie Wild
he, compsretively speaking. He knew one instance
of a boy being commuted in Angola on a charge of
felony, and kept iri cootioement till the Anises io
March. when lie was discharged by proclornenioN
to bill being found. He hoped too addittood
isilsorr. *sold be Unposed ou the Magistrosiai by
._.
env new arrangement.
Sir E. KAATCIIIIJLL Vine confident from whit
.-losii:lfidlen from the Hight Hue. Secretary for . the
Nome Department, that if the expetimesu be
imsentioned, which was very properly emended to
the home counties in the first instaoce. turned NI t
to be beneficial, it would not stop there. He then
.alloded to the inconveuience which hod recently
bleu sustained in the county (Kenn) with which he
wee connected. There were only 28 Nisi.Prias
uses set down for trial, but the greater. purr*
E
r had been unavoidably delayed, to the .great
iceineuce sod expense of the suitors and others,
•• :.
. account of the urgent necessity of applyneg
adigitiuisal exertions to the object of delivering the
gaol. This must undoubtedly sgsin'occur, for X
' was impossible to expect that the same circurn.
.Dances which had given rise to It should cot ogle.
lake place. If an additional gaol delivery, thcri.
lore, were not ordered, some Other irfingempat
would be necessary to secure to sailors in the Aid
' Prior Court sit early and efficient trial.
Mr. CHETWTIOD said there could be so &ob.
that a more frequent gaol delivery was not only de.
eirable bat nectsosry, sod he was glad to find that
the subject was in the hands of the Hight llore,
Secretary. He hoped the experiment which he ire
shout to try would not be confined to the Hume
• Circuit, but extended to all the others. He hoped
it would cot be otterided with any addition to*
loboors of the Magistrates, who were already a
overburdened with businew., that indepeudest
country gentlemen. who were the most proper and
desirable Immo, for the office, were glad to kelp
out of the eommiserioo. With respect to the sot-
.. ,

ambition of the number of the Judge', he did nit
see that it would be altogether necessary. Hewn
glad to hear that it was not intended to subject them
to any increased espouse ; for there was no class el
individuals in the public service so ill paid as tits
Judges.
Mr. W. SMITH thought the evil of the present
system so great that not one but ten experiment
of this kind should he made rather then it should
go on without a remedy. A case had recently bee'
tried in which a man was convicted of manslaughter,
for having caused the death of an apprentice by
besting and ill-treatment, for winch be was stn.
tenced to twelve months imprisonment. He (Mr.
W. Smith) knew an instance of • men in the city
of Norwich having been eleven mouths in prison en
a charge of Irlony, and discharged without trial
after all. Who that for a moment compared tits two
cases could hesitate in the opinion that a mote
frequent gaol delivery throughout the kingdom was
necessary
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL commenced in an
extremely low tone of voice some observations on
the importance of the question, on the difficulties
that opposed themselves to the immediate adoptieu
of any remedy, and the necessity of full a•d mature
consideration before any plan that might be propos-
ed should be adopted. The difficulties of the case
were most strongly proved by the variety of
suggestions that had been throws out es this
occasion. The Right Honourable Secretary for
the Home Department had said, that it w
determined to make the experiment of a thirll
gaul delivery in the Home Circuit, being of
opinion. and he (the Attorney-General) was
likewise of that opinion, that the weight of busi-
ness that at present pressed ou the Judges was
such, that without changing altogether the consti.
' lotion of the Courts of Law, a more extes►ive es.
perimeut could not as yet be made. The Mean's-
wience which had been sustained by the guitars et
Wig Pries at Maidstone, as stated by the H►
Pourable Baronet who represented the county of
lent (Sir Edward Kostchbull), had no doubt
!risen in a great mea►ure from want of informs.
tion as to the nature and extent of the busies",
to come on, before the order of the circuits was
arranged, so as to allow farther time for Ma Cams
mission at that place. That was an inconvenience
to which suitors must at ell times be ',obtain a
greater or less degree, and all that could be dyne was
So take care as far as it was possible thatjuettees oold
be administered to the satisfaction of the people.
The inconvenience to persona of imprisonment be-
fore trial was also one which must in some degree
rood, whatever regulation might be adopted. He
was ready to admit that that was not a reason why
some regulation should nut be made in order to
render the inconvenience as light as possible; but
it was a sufficient reason why they should not rush
at once in search of a remedy into any arrangement
which would involve the necessity of changing the
whole judicial systeiu of the country. With respect
to the Judges, they must be cautious of imposing
too great a load of business upon those important
public functionaries; for, if they did so, no man
of talent would be found to accept ofelie situation.
The leisure they were at peplum able to enjoy was
almost too little for the necessary relief from their
arduous duties. Ile trusted that the experiment
which had hero proposed by his Right Honourable
Friend would wtt•fy the House and the cottutty ;
after the' expertmi tit had been made end the ad-
vantages to be derived from it asccrtained, they
would be in alt. ocr situation to ssy how far it
might he ex tch:!ed with advantage to the country.
Dr. I..VsIIIIIOToN sod, that after much mid de-
liberate conasderidion of the subject, he wit. con.
vh.ced that it would he impossible to effect the
object of ■a additional goal delivery by soy plan
that meld abs adopted, without isereasing the
'lumber of the Judges; he felt that Do alteration
of hat kind ott; tit to be made except on clear and
unquextiwiiihle grooolls of necessity. But if the
result of the experiment in the home counties
should be, to show that a similar plan could not
he extended to the remaining circuits with the
present number of Judges, lie would remind the
Right Hon. Secretary and his Hon. sail Limped
Friend, that en augmentation of that cumber was trot
a new measure, (Oros they were well aware.there were
periods of our history its which there were five• 6119
and even seven Judges sitting in nne Court at the
same time. At present, he must say, that he was
wholly at a loss to imagine how any of the Jodie'
should be enabled to find time fir riecomory re'
la:atm ; and if the business owe jocleased

.1

teration in the law in that respect. By whet ar- precocity ? I
mgement could they secure the attendance of the The ATTORNEY-GENERAL commenced in sa I
edge in all the different counties of a circuit extremely low tone of voice some observations en
ithin the period of the same week f Take, the importance of the question, on the difficulties
e instance, the October Quarter Session,. The that opposed themselves to the immediate adoptisu i
ration was required to be held within a week of any remedy, and the necessity of full aid mature t
7 the II th October; if that fell ou a Sunday, the consideration before any plan that might be propos- 1
maims would begin on the i9th. Term begins ed shoed be adopted. The difficulties of the CM e
ealbe 6th November. How they could .any ar- were most strongly proved by the variety 0( *A •
egosseot be adopted by which a Judge would be suggestions that had been throws out ea Ws 1
tabled to attend at all the different town. within ocen:ton. The Right Honourable Secretary fee li
s circuit to deliver the gaols, so as to be in lime to ' the Home Department had said, that it sea e
tend the opening of the Term in Westminster? 4 determined to make the experiment of a thill e
'hese were a fee of the difficulties in the way of gaul delivery iu the Home Circuit, being of i a
by immediate alteration, which it required time opinion. and he (the Attorney-General) was I
i consider of the best means of removing, likewise of that opinion, that the weight of bssi. t 5
Tier the fullest consideration that his Majesty's nets that at present pressed ou the Judges was '
lovernmeut had been able to give to the sub- such, that without changing altogether the comb. it
ct, they hod determined, in the course of , tutiou of the Court. of Law, a more extensive es. t I
to next winter, to make an experiment. to which perimeut could not as yet be made. The incenvs- 1: c
r hoped it would not be objected that it wee on uience which had been sustained by the miters et h
io limited a scale, of a third gaol delivery, in all Nisi Prins at Maidstone, as stated by the Hie ii
le couoties of the Home Circuit, viz. Elms, pourable Baronet who represented the county of tl
lertfordshire. Sussex, Surrey, and Kent. The Kent (Sir Edward Kneclibull), had no doobt
!mono which had induced the Government to select arisen in a great measure front want of informs. t.
to Home Circuit for this experiment were, in the tion as to the nature and extent of the hoist", e
rst place, the greater facility which it presented to come on, before the order of the circuits Wag r
it the regular attendance of both Judge sod arranged, so as to allow farther time for this Com. . a
'outlet!. who would not be carried to such a die- minion at that place. That was an ioconvenience il
ince from the Courts in Westminster as would to which suitors must at ell times be liable in a e
recent them returning in time for any business on greater or less degree, and all that could betionevii c
hich their presence might be necessary ; and in to takecare as far as it was poseible thatjumiees odd t
le next place, there were circumstances which ap- be administered to the satisfaction of the people t
lied to the home diettict, arising out of the ve- i The incinivenience to persons of imprisonment be- I
nity of those counties to the rnetropolie,which might fore trial was also one which mute in souse degree t
lake the commuience of such an arrangement more exist, whatever regulation might be adopted. lie '
amediately felt. In Middlesex there were at pre. was ready to admit that that was not a reason why t
ut eight gaol deliveries within die year, a distmc- some regulation should nut be mode in order to I
on which had been made solely with reference to render the inconvenience as light as passible; but a
le locality of the metropolis ; and ou that prin. it was a sufficient reason why they should not rush e
ple they proposed to extelid the system by way of at once in search of a remedy into any arrangement b
iperiment in the first instance to the home coon- which would involve the necessity of changing the 1
es.—(Hear, heir.) whole judicial system of the country. With respect
Mr. LuYcxsTxu said, the effect of ifse protraction to the Judges, they must be cautious of imposing It
'the term between the two Assizes was to keep per- too great a load of business upon those important 6
nit charged with felony a long time in coufinemeet public functionaries; for. if they did oce no man
revioos to trial, often without having committed of talent would be found to accept ofithe situation., P
ty crime at all, often for offences punishable only The leisure they were at present able to enjoy was
r periods of imprisonmeut shorter in duration thou almost too little foot the necessary relief from their . -
let which they thugs were compelled previously to arduous duties. Ile trusted' that the experiment 11
Avg°. This was a system which called loudly which had been propmed by his Right Honourable - ill
r amendment, far if imprisonment before trial Friend would setay the (,louse mud the cottutey ;
as made longer than was necessary, it degeoe- after that expertmi tit had been made and the ed.
ted into oppression. A more frequent gaol ventogeo to be derived from it ascertained, they 7111
livery was also desirable as a means of f ili
..tat... i would be tit d to Lier sitnetion to say how far it
g the improvement of prison discipline, by reduc. 1 might be ex fro:led with advantage to the country.
g the number of persons in confinement, and pro. Dr. I..usiii Minot. sod. that after mock and de-
ei
nting the object so desirable to be attained, of a liberate comaderetion of the subject. he wit. cos- ii
viler classification of prisoners according to their vh.eed that it would be impossible to effect the . t
irticuler circumstances. He did trot conceive object of an additional goal deltves7 by soy plan '- h
acould t such en arrangement would necessarily require that sbe adopted, *than summating the , •
i increase in the number of the Judges. There , number of the Judges; he felt that Do alteration ,i, e
err now four in taco Court, of whom one might tof shat kind etii.oit to be made except on cheer sod '_ a
spared for the purpose; end three Judges would uliquelitioioitile groooils of necessity. But if the .: li
!dorm the additional circuits for the whole of ie.ult of the experiment iu Ilse home counties • c
ogland in the sense space of time which the whole should be, to show that a similar plan could not '; f
the Judges occupied in the circuits at present. he extended to the remaining circuits with the ...., it
Mr.•PRIL said he had omitted to observe that present number of Judges, he would remind the ,- ' t
thing could be more unjust than that any addi- I Right Hots. Secretary and has Hon. and Learoed , e
oital expense should be entailed on the Judges by Friend, that en augmentation of that member was pot e
iy measure of this nature ; and he was sure the a new measure, furors they were well asare.there were e
onse would on no account consent to any arrange. period, of our history iii which there were Ole* 1119 it
rut which would increase their burdens.—(Hear.) and even seven Judges sitting in owe Court at the vi
Mr. DicutnioN raw no meson why *owe of the same time. At pretest, he must say, that he was e
,unties in' the Home Circuit, Hertfurdshire for wholly at a loss to imagine how any of she Jodie' li
stance, should have • preference over others. The should be enabled to find time far necomery re' •
may of Somerset had the great lowa of Baba . laximeau ; and if the business Ware iliatard ° tl
_ . •. _....