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London, England, 1825-05-18 00:00:00

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the Unitarian Dissenters of Cullumpton (Devonshire), and from
Stroud (I iloucestersh ire).
'rite Marquis of DowNsitlßE from the hankers and mer-
chants of Belfast ; from the Presbyterians of Bangor (County
Down), and from two respectable and opulent manufacturers.
The Marquis of LONDONDER lir presented a petition
from Darlington (Durham), and sail:—This is a petition
against the Catholic Claims. and I could wish that it had been
placed in the hands of the Noble Lord on the %roebuck, who is
connected with tltc county of Durham, and whose sentiments con-
cur with those of the petitioners. As I ant now addressing your
Lordships, I will take the opportunity of expressing my opinions
on this great question, as briefly as I can. When I consider how
often and how ably the important topic of the Catholic claims has
been discussed, and when I consider the many eloquent speeches
which will be delivered upon it in the course of fain night's debate,
I fear it will be regarded as presumption in me, who ant unused
to 'public speaking, to address your Lordships at all. Bat as I feel
very strongly upon the subject, I will give utterance to those feel-
ings now es her than interrupt the coming dimitation. My reasons
are these : under the dipensatioa of Pr.,edeece, 1 hare, very unfor.
tutiately for myself, and unfortunately too fur my country, come
into the possession of large estate* in Ireland, and I have therefore
an especial interest in the tranquillity of that country. But there is
another, my respect few a departed relative, under whose care and
in whose principles I was bred. That Muir., I venture to say,
was one of the moat efficient and honest Stineenten that this country
ever possessed. (Hum, hear.) As a subject Ido not overpraise
him, and as a brother I earin..t say too moth. I knew his send.
meets thoroughly, aid, if he was io one thing more sincere than
in another—i r there was see subject which more than another pressed
so bib maid, it was air ese tire CILLIIAC Questiun fairly mid folly
understood. He only regretted that theologies! and Internal diffi-
culties of the country did not enable kin) to take such an active
part in promoting the measure an he wished, and that he could
not at once accomplish leis desires. Ever siuce the legislative
Union of the two countries under that great man, 3lr. Pitt, my
lamented relative, thought that the measure was nut complete
(hear, hear), unless Catholic Emancipation was carsied. (Cheers.)
If there was no pledge to that effect, there was, at kid, 'something
very like it. (lean) Had his life been spared to the country, be
would have called upon his Slajeaty'a Aliniatera to redeem that
pledge. These were his sentiments, and I hope God may send his
spirit to animate the Cabinet of his 31ajesty. and induce them to
carry a measure so necessary to the tranquillity and peace of Ire.
land. I hope that your Lordships will forgive this trespass on
,your
time, bat circumstanced as I am, and feeling as I do, I could not
refrain from expressing myself as I have done, though, I fear, most
imperfectly. ( Ilene)
Lord DACRE presented a Petition in favour of the Catholic
claims, signed by 200 Sergeants at thaw and Barristers.
Lord DUDLEY and WARD presented a Petition front the
Protestant Dissenters of Dudley.
The Bishop of NORWICH from the Presbyterian Clergymeo
in London, connected with the Church of Scotland.
Lord HOLLAND, three Petitions from the Uniurians in and
near Exeter.
The Marquis of BUTE, from Cardiff.
His Royal Highness the Duke of SUSSEX, from the Arch-
deacon and Clergy of the Archdeaconry of Sudbury.
The LORD CHANCELLOR presented a petition from Dun-
stable against the Catholic Claims.—Laid on the table.
The Marquis of L.INSDOWN presented a peltion from two
Heads of Colleges in Cambridge, from 30 or 40 Fellows, and 80 or
90 Graduates of that University, accompanied by the names of 30
members of Oxford University now in town, praying that the Ca-
tholic' Claims be granted. The Noble Lord said, the petition was
signed by the Professors of Greek, of Anatomy, of Astronomy, o!
theology, and indeed by some of the most considerable men of the
University.
The Noble Marquis presented another petition from 100 Gra-
duates of both Universities—The petitions were laid on the table.
The Marquis of IsANSDOM N presented a sindlat petition
from ten Protestant Peers, not Members of the House, and many
of the great Landowners of Ireland, residing in the vicinity of
Dublin.—Laid on the table.
The same Noble Lord presented a petition from Liverpool,
signed by 7.000 persons, and representing six millions of property.
—Laid on the table,
The Duke of DEVONSHIRE said he had two petitions to pre-
sent, both praying that the Catholics be admitted to a participation
in the rights of their Protestant fellow-subjects, as the only means
of promoting the peace and prosperity of Ireland. One was signed
by a large proportion of the inhabitants of the County of Waterford,
and the other by the inhabitants of the town of Bandon, hitherto
the strnng.hold of Protestantism; yet now praying for Catholic
Emancipation as the only method to secure public tranquillity.
Every day, indeed, afronted fresh proofs of the anxiety of all
classes in Ireland to abolish those religious distinctions which had
hitherto produced discord there, and by timely conciliation give
security to all classes of its inhabitants. They had now the concur.
?ewe of both Catholics and Protestants in the measure, and he
hoped their Lordships would not reject a measure which was
desired by all parties, and so consonant to reason anti justice:
for if danger was to be held out as an argument against the
measure by the Protestant inhabitants of Catholic Ireland, he
would understand and feel its force: but when the whole Pro-
testant body implored their Lordships to pass the Bill, he
thought there was no longer any pretext for refusing it. They
asserted that the safety and security of the country depended
on it. Th.. Catholic question had been agitated for more than 23
years, and had been supported by nearly all the ablest and most
enlightened statesmen in England and Ireland. It was daily gain.
ing friends and making converts. The Catholics were daily ad.
ranting in intelligence and wealth. The question ought not to be
left to sleep. the present moment was mast important. It
was • time of peace. 'rhe other Ilouse of Parliament had pro-
nounced a favourable opinion. If the present moment were
neglected, who could say that concession hereafter would not
come too late ? Divisions and dietuthances would again arise,
and the old horrors would be renewed. But if the question
were lost this night, it must one day be carried. Did any one be-
lieve that the just claims of the Catholics could be for ever with-
held ? No rational man could think so. Irhy then hazard by a
present refusal so many advantages, when after that refusal must
be in vain ? Let the two countries be immediately and firmly united
by equal laws. He was rejoiced to see the question in such able
hands. They had his entire concurrence. Be trusted that their
Lonlshipit would by their decision do credit to themselves and
Justice to Ireland • that they would wipe off the stain from British
legislation. and abolish those hateful distinctions which disgraced
and weakened the empire, and consolidate the national strength by
uniting the national hearts. (Hear.,
Earl GREY, in presenting a petition from a congregation of
Dissenters in Hanover-square, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, in tavour of
Catholic Emancipation, called their Lordships' attention to a part
of the prayer of the petitioners, in which they stated that they had
never wished to trouble the House with their opinions upon this
subject, but that they felt themselves compelled to come forward
on this occasion, to remove the stigma which had been Cast upon
the whole body of Dissenters by some few aho had prayeil that
House not to grant to their Catholic fellow-subjects civil and reli-
gious rights. (Ilea%) The petition was then laid on the table.
The same Noble Lord then presented petitions from the Cathelic
inhabitants of Liverpool, the Catholic inhabitants of the county of
3lunaglian, the Catholic inhabitants of Preston, in Lancashire, and
the inhabitants of Wigan, in the same county. praying the removal
of Catholic disabilities.—These petitions were laid on the table.
ENGLISH CATHOLICS. . .

whose rapid advances to unexampied power and prosperity have , the present position dale Roman Catholics—what k watt they de-
not been impeded by religious gisheiniae. that moot fertile source aired, and what were the Melilla by which they sought to antra et
Of all evil, and whose present gveintent bat boo 'stately supported what they desired, and waist would be the result of making the
by the utter extinction of all civil ae clilliWeeme. mod Iti concessions which they now sought for. They enjoyed a full and
Ifthe protection granted by its ' to di dediatoms i tics exercise of their relieton..—they enjoyed a right of prolserty 111:1
persuasions. ( fled% bear. New) Tido 'disdain tallier. ear ;fully as the members of the Established Church, and it was idle to
Lords, that which has be faleoiy sin& cobeeedeeilly emended maim In declamation to 016Si...oats, enactments which were reyead
to than in a petition which him dile night. bus yresooteel 1 were than half a century agO, as descriptive of the prevent positing
to your Lordships, from a person like troj yeekebot dm awn* ter. , which the Roman Catholic, vat-tared in the Stale. Again, loon-
ligious opinions that they do ; whit Woe Opinions lie beide now I : ing to the civil offices of Me gtati, many of them were eligible to
know not ; but, my lairds, they Makin' any ingiallid dieetance, ; and occupied places of trua;An the Revenue and in other de sari-
and they declare themselves reedy now, ee it Is • known they menu of the Government. ~ They had also been long admitted into
have so often done before, to defend the Crown ask tfMioet of i the army and navy, ( Hear! hear.) Sn far their position was
this kingnom against any foreign Prince, Prelate, I, Poster, or highly advantageous,: but what more did they seek for ? Political
Potentate upon earth. (Doud cheers.) On dam !ids, my I power—a participation in our doir.eaic Government, anti in our
Lords, the petitioners earnestly hope dog yo.w will, In G
overnment, abroad ; as he believed the only exception madeconsideration consideration of the advantages 16 be dean * fowl gvaating their 1 I from which they were to lee etc/tidal was that of Lord Ideate.
claims, and the danger which my be hooselei by refusal, at last of Ireland. And if they were admitted to those offices and higli places
relieve them from that situation shah b Mince en injury end a of truer, would not the result be that the Roman Catholics would
disgrace, excluding them free their Jest dews add making us aim at the gradual re-establishment of their Church. This oppor.
objects of diegrs!* and contempt. I IMP% trey L. I amid state milky he was not for one dispersed to give them. &ranched as he was
my hapless( imams this night were opell es my ateeietion of the to the present connexion between Church and ;(:ate. and believing
justice pf the petitioners' claims, and it* yollopoirl. _ ispetlienerof Metteueuexiou to be for the security,send welfare cf both. Rut it
granting them. This petltioo come, Nembilliodoi by the .high had heat said that the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church
ebreesee of trop seltatsser so Illieb CMS the Noble were not swell now as they had formerly been. This he would ale-
LadlakerPoul) boor . set eolraorpoome- by ; acne twit they were now such as they had ever been, he ',mild
wog scirea" end oterloseloro oojeer, but ea men die. refer to the writings of one of the !Alan and most prominent of their
tioggebed by orbit mod salboory In dee Post of dome*, oo churchmen of the present day. Dr. Doyle,, the titular Bishop of
ail ocaniere whops *de etoono7 tloorodett dolirsetwieeo. filar) Kildare, in a letter addreased to the Martinis Wellesley, denied
It ammo see, Leede„ by osoootrieks petitiOas of a greet the juitice of the law by which the Church heW Its proßet't Jo
portion of tbe Peefmerst pe olt is belialt, that the *sager Ireland. The same writer, in a letter to the Catholic A ifracrition,
apprehended from granting, _ an an longer firkin spoke of the detestation in which they should hold thaw who differed
this sawritennevitasee a. • Noble , ••••• WA aireseiebt. iliotio- front thew in religion. An Women which weighed straggly with
guished hiemellt, m well by the wisdom of hie sent manta as by the him wasabe concealment which the Ilielseps undertook to keep with
mannerof hisdelivering them. asid.where those daogers would bethe 'respect to their com nmunicatio with the Pope. At their online.
most keenly fat, and where any opposition should bare the greatest don, one of the vows which they took was, " Consilium Domini
weight. lhe Bill now before your hardships comes too recap. Pain termini thorn." Dr. Doyle he believed did not go so far ;
mended as well by the assent of the Protestant population of Ire- but there was a passage in his writings in which he said, that al.
land as by a vote of the Reprmentatives of the people who though rebellion was raging in the country, no Roman Catholic
have now, for the second time, sent to your Lordship* their Priest or Bishop would excommunicate a member of their flock.
consent to the relief of their Catholic brethren. (Hear, bear.) 'l'u show that such had been the doctrine of the Roman Catholic
011 this night there had been, as on others, a great deal of discussion Church at all times, he would reter to the eloquent' Bossuet,
on the subject of the degree of public feeling exhibited by the Bishop of. Menx. In a sermon which he preached before the
petitions presented to your Lortiehips: by some these petitions had King' and Chancellor of France, in enumerating their praises, he
been taken to show a deckled fading against the Bill—by others it particularlycommeadell them fortheirztal in the "extermination of
has been sought by observations sill the mannerof their being got heretics." Such had ever been their doctrine; it was unchanged and
up, and the means used to procure signatures, to show that they unchangeable. Of the auxiliary measures by which it was supposed
had directly the contrary effect. I will not, my Lovd, take upon to render the present meoureaceeptable, he hail heard withsurprise,
me to decide which of these conflicting Micron may be right ; but for the fin: time since the Revolution, the establishment of an
this much 1 will say, both from wiad I have heard and from my endowed Catholic Church in Ireland. Olean hear.) Domestic
own personal observation—that there has not been one petition nomination was also spoken of as a security ; for it was right tri
from a county—hardly one from a great town against the Catholic apprise, that there wax a Dean and Chapter, and all the fonneof a
claims, where there had not been see or mare petitions more nume. religion, ready to step in and to fulfil all the functions of an estab-
rously signed on the other side of Me question--and that there had fished religion, should it be established. HeIVIIII surprised, however,
been no public meeting held upon the subject, where the majority that no power was given to the Sovereign of this kingdom in the
had not been two to one i 3 favour of the Catholics. (Hear, hear.) nomination of Bishops:. although such was given to the other non-
And, to y Lords, whatever may be said of the majority in the other Catholic Sovestimis of Europe, and to the King of Ilanover
House, I would maintain, that considering how that House is situ- (hear), yet It was refused to be conceded by the Catholice of Tre-
ated, on the eve perhaps of a general election, a time of all others land. la the Commission which was proposed to be appointed, he
the least favourable to a question of this kind—l would say, that observed that the several bulls and resenpts which were proposed
with all thecircumstancea of such a situation operating against them, to be submitted to the Commission were not to be submitted to the
there was a strong manifestation of feeling even in the majority inspection of any of the Members of his Majesty's Government in
with which the Bill was carried, and that much as I admit that Ireland. Such were the measures proposed to neutralize the elan-
House may stand in need of reform, I doubt whether this Bill gas which lie anpreheteled ; but he for one saw n i security in
would have been presented at the present mostient at your Lord- them. Several large religious institutions already existed in 'hese
ships' bar if there had not been in that House the strongest convie- countries. That powerful and aide body the Jesuits, who- were
tion of such a measure being not disagreeable to the general banished even from Catholic countries, were sheltered here without
wishes of the country. I say, therefore, that it public feeling is law, and as he thought against law. He thought that they ought
not altogether decidedly favourable, which perhaps it would be not to be admitted into this country, nor any other portion of the
too much to assert, that it is at all events in a state of tranquillity, Roman Catholic clergy excel)t the secular clergy. The only aecu-
and that if we had a Cabinet united upon the question, not coin- city that he SAW against the Roman Catholics, was the exclusion of
posed of heterogeneous material., not suffering every thing to be ef. their' from all participation in political power. (Hear, dal a
fected by a kind of chance medley.—but I repeat an united Cabi- laugh.) lie was not an enemy to emancipation; but the emanci.
net (cheers), as to the policy and wisdom of granting the Ca- nation of which he was an advocate was en emancipation from ig.
thulic Claims, that my opinion is. in the present state of the norance, and the misery that their poverty and the under-letting
public mind, all obstacles might be surmounted, and the cause of and 'subdivision of lands in that country was productive of. Al-
civil and religious liberty be borne throutgb this House in triumph though an artful leader might endeavour to make it appear that
(loud cheers), that we might now see benevolence and love sue- disturbances in Ireland originated in religious dissensions, yet he
cod to uncharitableness and hate—that we might see peace and would undertake to say, that that misery originated in the poverty
tranquillity in Ireland succeed to discord andjealousy, and that all and distress of the district in which disturbances prevailed. This
parties might, by a great measure of conciliation, be brought to would be evidenced by a contrast of the north of Ireland with the
give their aid to the promotion of the general good, and be at last south. In both there were persons of different religious persua.
induced to live together in that state of concord and unanimity of nuns, but distress and disturbance prevailed principally in the
feeling which should characterise those who profess the Christian south of Ireland. He besought their Lordships to consider that
faith, and worship God on the same general precepts or religion. the Roman Catholics alone were not to be considered in the adjust-
We have heard much of the influence used to procure petitions, vent of this question, but that the feelings of the Protestants of
and many Reverend Prelates have disclaimed any interference in England were also to be consulted. (Hear, hear) He hoped they
exciting public opinion against the Catholics. 1, for one, have no would not descend from the high situation which they held in the
reason to doubt their assertions : I believe them to be holy men, country, that they would not spread &sooner t among the Pro-
lneapable of stating a falsehood, but may I not say that there may tenants of the Empire, and that as the other House of Parliament
be something in the knowledge of their feelings and opinions upon was so nicely balanced on this question, that they would throw the
this question, and that such knowledge may have a considerable ef- weight of their authority in excluding the Roman Catholics front
feet in exciting time zeal of those lees fortunate than themselves, further political power. He (Lord C.) would conclude by moving
who naturally look forward to them for rewards from the per- that this Bill be read again this day six months. [The Noble
formance of those duties they consider pleasing to them ? (Cheers.) Lord spoke front the front of the cross batches, facing the woolsack.
However that may he, this is certain, that such endeavours have Ile spoke in an extremely low tone of voice, so as to be very indis-
been used, and though they have been hitherto unsuccessful, who tined,' audible below the Bail
can say what effect the continued effbrts of a zeal actuated by such The Marquis of ANGLESEY, after much consideration, had
motives may have upon the public mind ? It'ho can say what come with great anxiety to the vote which he intended to give on
may be the effect if they succeed in reviving that religious animosity the present occasion. On the ore hand he was disposed to do all
which is now slumbering, but not extinguished ? That they may that was kind and liberal towards the Roman Catholics—and on
fail by the enlightened feeling of the people. I earnestly hope, and the other, he was unwilling to throw down those barriers which
I would say, in the language of the Noble Duke, that I trust they had so long been regarded as the protection of the British Constitu.
will not succeed in preventing the union of Catholic and •Protestant, non. He had observed the concessions which had been made to ,
if that time should happily arrive, from being a union of interest the Roman Catholics ; and observed also the effect that these con.
and affection, as well as a union of political party.—(Cheers. ) cessions had upon their conduct. These concessions were not fol.
We hear, my Lords, at the corner of every street, that this is a lowed by patience on the part of the Roman Catholics until they
question of tune, and that the period must come when the prayer should obtain the further privileges which they claimed and ',t-
ot these petitioners will be granted. Good God ! is it possible that petted, but they were uniformly followed by the increased irritation,
any one, relying upon the opinion that this question must be some restlessness, and discontent of that body. (Hear, hear.) At the
time or other carried, can take upon himself the fearful responsibi. Milne time that he wasrottleeiroutiof any grievance which the Roman
lov of refusing it now. The moment is not, as the Noble Duke Catholics might feel, lie apprehended that it was not emancipation
observed, only favourable--it is precious. (Cheers.) rhe title alone they sought for, but something more—he apprehended that
may shortly be when you cannot grant the boon if you would. The they sought for the establishment of Catholic ascendancy. This he
Noble Duke has told us that we are now peaceful and prosperous ; would not concede, and here he would take his stand. And although
but how can human foresight look to the continuance of such a the argument of six millions of Irish Roman Catholics was resorted
state ? Already do we not see clouds above our horizon in more to to alarm them, he would say, if the battle was to be fought let
than one direction, and who is it can say when they may not burst it be fought in the position we could command, and, in his opinion,
into a tempest ? (Cheers.) In peace and prosperity you may grant there was none so good as the old ground of Protestant ascendancy.
tbese claims with honour and safety, but when the passions are (Hear, hear.) lie did not see that the present Bill offered any
raised and asperities excited, take care that you do not find the guarantee for the security of that ascendancy, and he could
evils you have allowed to continue incurable, and the remedy of not therefore give it his support. Ile was a friend to the
concession no loner in your power. Such an infatuation, such an Roman Catholics ; and any measure for their relief consistent
indifference and delay, once lust LS America ; may God grant that with the principle he had faith down for the maintenance of
a similar infatuation do not separate Deland from this country, and the Protestant ascendency, should meet with his support. He
inflict a wound upon its power and resources even more fatal than would therefore approve of the measure relative to the elective
that unhappy dismemberment. (Cheers.) My Lords, in solicit- franchise, which did rot, in his opinion, interfere with the just and
ing your favourable reception to this petition, I have said thus honest rights of any class of the community. The measure for
much, and I think the best apology I can offer for troubling you the provision of the Clergy was also in his opinion a proper. at
at such length is, to express a hope that I may not be called upon least it was a benevolent measure, although he could not forbear
again, to take a part in the discussion. Indeed it war hardly neces- from the expression of some surprise that the Roman Catholic
sary, my Lords, that I should have addressed you at all ; my opt- Clergy of Ireland denied to the Sovereign of this country the right
nions have been expressed so often, and are so well known, that I of interfering in the nomination of their Bishops, which was con
could not hope to make a single convert to a cause when such ceded by the Roman Catholic,' of' the otter nations of Europe. Ile
powerful eloquence has been exerted by others ; and I can would give to the Roman Catholics of Ireland equal protection of
only repeat, that after hearing everything that has been raid for law with their fellow-subjects, and consent to the removal of all
and against this queetion for twenty years, after every debate I disabilities that did not endanger that which he (the Marquis of
feel more firmly convinced of the necessity of granting what is Anglesey) deemed essential—the impregnable security not only of
asked, if you wish to preserve the peace and prosperity of Ireland. the Protestant Establishment but of the Protestant Ascendancy.
I would ask for the Catholics of England a complete measure of (Loud cries of hear, lies.r)
Emancipation, but lat the same time beseech your Lordships to The Itlarqu's of CAMDEN. in a low tone of voice, next
bear ice mind that the Roman Catholics of liiigland are very din addressed the noun : he had been engaged (as we understood)
facility situated from the Roman Catholics of Ireland. I would on the measures of relief to the Roman Catholic+ in the year
call upon you to extend to the English Roman Catholics those Inela and he could bear testimony to the patience and ex-
laws, out of indulgence but of justice, which they had already. emplary conduct which they manifested at whatever dieap.
granted to Ireland. I hope sincerely that in your wisdom the full pointments they might have experienced about that period.
measure of Emancipation may be carried this night, but at Many persons considered the endowment of a Roman Catholic
lent I trust that you will remove the striking anomaly now upon College at Maynooth an improper anti impolitic measure; he was
your statute-book, by raising the Roman Catholics of England to aware that much sentiments were entertained on the subject, and
an equal footing with the Roman Catholics of Ireland. (Hear, that it might be saiu to be a prevalent opinion. He did not concur
hear, hear.) The Noble hoed concluded by moving that the pe- in that opinion, and lie thought individuals must, on a little eon.
titian be received and ordered to lie on the table. eiderstion, see the policy and necessity of such an establishment.
CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL. He had had opportunities of seeing the state, and knowing the feel.
The Earl of DONOCUIDIORE moved the second reading of ings of the Irish people, having been in that country in an official
the Roman Catholic Relief Bill. After the long disco:alone which situation at a troublesome and dangerous periol ; and he always
had already taken place on this question, and after the repeated op. would feel it his duty to bear testimony to their conduct under dr.
portunities of addressing their berlships of which he had from cunestances of a most untoward nuttier. He had been in Ireland in
time to time availed iiimeelf on this important question, he would the year 1793, when there were good opportunities of judging of
not now trespass on their attention. Ile would repeat that which the state of the feelings of the population, and at a subsequent
lie had often before said, and which he sincerely felt, namely, the period he had thought it his duty to address a letter to Mr. Pitt on
injustice of excluding men from civil rights on the ground of dif- the condition of that country. During the French invasion of
ferences in religious opinions. If such a principle were permitted 1797—sa most trying mid alarming juncture—he could bear testi-
to prevail, there was at once an end to the freedom of the British niony to the good and loyal conduct of the Irish peasantry. They
Constitution. It was idle to talk Of their liberties and their boasted had afforded every possible assistance to time soldiery, and shown
independence whilst they treated the Roman Catholics of Ireland every disposition to diseountdance and oppose the invaders. This
as if they were actually slaves, and endeavoured to extinguish the feeling had exhibited itself on the line of march of the enemy, and
thoughts of liberty in their minds. Ile would not at present tree- the roads by which liis,:tlajeety's troops had to advance to meet the
pan tunlier on the attention of their bonlships, but reserve any invaders. In consequence of their loyalty and obedience, it appeared
thing else that he might be disposed to address to their Lordships to be the intention of the Legislature to do something effectual for
until he had heard the objections which Noble Lords might enter- the relief of the Roman Catholics at tie period of the Union: but
lain to the measure. The Noble Lord concluded by moving that that intention had not been coiled into effect. lie thought there
the ltdman Catholic Relief Bill be read a second time. could be no more favourable opportunity than the present for effect.
lord COLCHESTER rose to advert to some of the grounds ing that object. Ile was riot tube driven out of his course by ebui- .
which had been relied upon by the advocates of this measure, in boons of public feeling, and from a conviction of its propriety he
support of the expediency of passing it now. The putting down now came forward to give his support to this measure. Now that
of the Catholic Association had been referred to as a ground for the Roman Catholic Association had been put down, and no appre-
passing the present measure ; that was an Association, the nature hension of any kind was to be entertained, he thought it the fit and
of which Wa4 at variance with the spirit of the Constitution, and proper period to concede -lie measure sought by so large a body of
which was accordingly suppressed by the powers of the Constitu- their fellow-subjects. This, he would say, was his fixed and set.
Lion The evidence, too, given before the Parliamentary Inquiry, tied opinion, without going further into the details .. the measure.
had been made a ground for passing the present Bill. He (Lord With respect to another topic that had been strenuously urged by
Colchester) came to a very different conclusion front the perusal of the opponents of the Catholic Cmime—the authority possessed by
that evidence, aid he certainly at least saw nothing in the evidence the Pope in Ireland, he wished to offer an observation. The ex.
to remove the fundamental objections which he had taken to this istenee of that authority had been denied upon oath by the Roman
measure, although there was much in that evidence which in other Catholics, and he believed from his heart, that neither the Pope,
respects he hoped would be productive of much benefit to Ireland. nor any other foreign Potertate, could lay claim to the slightest
He sincerely believed that, in his opposition to this measure, his temporal authority in Ireland. On general grounds then,e sou with
feelings were in unison with the general feeling, of the nation. His the view of conciliating the feelings anti affections of t.ii Catholic
. ricrrer
opposition, however, to the Roman Catholics, was not to their ad- commenity, he would support the measure. And herr,r,ruhitmaylf
per-
State;
to a full participation of the honours and ernolumenteof the the affectionate and friendly
;IC was ready to consent to their participation of every thing milady in that country, andfeeilni'llnguesndeinsflabyyedthreAdial support he
short of political power. Here he would take his stand (hear); Lad experienced from many individuals theretin,ghtedftehlteamgrmeauret annexwi.
but, in the conaideratioa of this question, it was but right to regard ety that their Lonlships would, by
I

Price 7d.

Earl GREY thensit7isClhavenrWti present a petition to your
Lordships. signed by the Duke of Norfolk, the Premier Peer of
England, by the whole of the Roman Corn: :ic Peers of Great Bri-
tain, by all its ancient gentry, and by many other respectable per-
sona of the Roman Catholic persuasion, to the number of, I believe,
thirty thousand persons, praying for a repeal of those unjust and
impolitic laws, which, for no fault committed by them, but on ac-
count of their adherence to a religious belief which it does nut de-
pend upon them to change, exclude them from a participauon in
those constitutional rights and privileges which are enjoyed by the
other classes of the conmiunith The petitioners, my Lords, speak
with perfect respect to your Lordships, but they speak with tear-
, lestness and firmness—in the tone and language of men deeply oen-
alble of the justice of their claims—in the language of men conscious
or their own worth, and of their title to the enjoyment of that civil
and religious liberty, which cannot be perfect when a great mass of
our fellow-subjects are excluded from their share in its advantages;
and they say, my Lords, that they can never cease to complain to
your Lordships, while they remaiii in a state as degrading to them
as It is disgraceful to us. (Hear, hear.) They appeal to the evi-
dence of individual members of your Lordships' House as to their
loyalty and integrity, and they proudly assert their title to the
estate of men, from their invariable practice of pure principles of
morality. and front their discharge of all the duties of social life,
with a val not to be exceeded by their Protestant brethren, where-
ever they were nut impeded by the jealous spirit of laws as unjust
as they are impolitic. They maintain else, my Lords, that there
is nothing in their religion inconsistent with the principles of a
free Government. (hear.) And they appeal to the history of
those times when Protest:it:ism was not the religion of this country ;
I mean to the periods before the Reformation ; and they call upon
your Lordships to declare, if there was any failure upon their part
in the maintenance of the rights of the subject against the en-
Vroaehments of arbitrary power. (Hear.) They assert also, my
Lords. from the example of modern times, that there is nothing
in their creed incompatible with the principles of a free Go-
vernment—nothing inconsistent with the full exercise of civil
and religious liberty. They call upon your Lordships to look
at the continent of Europe; anti first they would direct your at-
tention to Switzerland, where Protestant and Catholic Cantons.—
the last certainly not the least numerous and powerful, rule to-
gether i t harmony and peace, untlist-rh,.. : by political or religious
dissension. They call upon your Lordships to look at France,
where a Catholic Sovereign has granted by charter equal rights
and privileges to his Protestant and Catholic subjects. (Hear.)
At the Netherlands, where Protestant Holland has been united
with the Cattiol'e provinces of the Catholic House of Austria,
under the special gm.rantee of Great Britain. (Hear, bear.)
At Hanover, where all distinctions upon the ground of religious
opinions have been repudiated by the liberal and enlightened
Sovereign of this country so equally impolitic and unjust. (Hear.)
At Canada, where, under the same wise and beneficent direction,
Catholics and Protestants have been admitted to an equal partici-
pation in the right of legislation. And last, above all to America,

"NMI I
, before them, quiet the apprehensions, and unite the affections fa':
' all classes of his Majesty's ettbjecse in Ireland. Ile would repeat
what he had already pressed upon their Lardships' attention, that
I ho fitter time than the present could be chosen for carrying the pro-
posed measure into effect ; and under this impression, and en the
best consideration, he now came forward ft) give it his full, cordial,
and most unqualified suppert.
The Earl of DARNLEY entirely concurred in the sentiments
pf the Noble Marquis (Camden) who had last addressed their
eeordships. Ile thought with that Noble hoed, that the present
was the time for the adoption of this measure, if it was ewer W.
tended to adopt It. His Noble and Gallant Friend (the Margie.
of Anglesey) appeared to entertain a contrary opinion, and lie watt
itady to admit, much as he differed from the sentiments expressed
by his Noble Friend, that by no one could his opinions (such as
they were) be uttered with more nroprie.y and decorum of mea-
ner than had been done on the present occasion by the Gallant
Marquis. Vet he could not avoid expressing his deep regret,
that the Noble and Gallant Lord had so far permitted his profes-
sional habits to influence him in the discharge of his civil dutief
and lead him to from the opinion which he had that night ee .
pressed upon a subject so important as the present. lie thought
the Noble Marquis would do well to consider the provocations
which the Irish people had repeatedly experienced, and that
whatever intemperance-of language they might at times and seismic*
of great irritation have given tato, they had never departed teem
their loyalty, but stood firm to their allegiance in a most trying
and tliffirult emergency. ellen the Gallant Marquis talked of
telling tip a position against the present measure, he ehould reflect
' hpon the consequences of that resolution; and, considering that
strong as his position might he, he might find it unpleasant to
have his flacks and rear attacked,
andiinerheps be reduce) to a
situation from which all his skill and try would not he suf.
ffcient to extricate him. flowerer, fa, part' fofluenced by.thet
dictates of common Christian clualty, and knowing how he
himself would feel, if placed in a ,;(nation similar to that of
the Roman Catholic at the present moment, he was disposed to ex-
cuse, and make allowance for much more intemperate language
then that bay of ecople had ever indulged in. (Hear.) On the
expediency of the present measure his mind had been long made
up ; and in the course of a long parliamentary life, he had seat
nothing and haled no argument to induce him to swerve from his
opinion. lie did hope that the time would yet arrive when his
Noble Friend (the Marquis of Anglesey) would see reason to alter
his present opinion, and be re-converted to the cause of humanity,
justice, religion, and sound policy. At the commencement of the
Session their lordships had been called on to put down the Rom=
Catholic Association, by a measure, in his opinion, not very cone
eQtutional in its nature. He did not mean to become the advo-
cate of that Association, but he wished the circumstances of the
Roman Catholics fled not been such as appeared to justify the eg..
istenew of the Association. In the summer of 1792. while the
eountey wan tranquil, and the Government unembarrused, the
Catholics were told not to expect any concessions, and a deaf ear
yes turned to their petitions ; but in less than six months those
concessions were not only made, but recommended in the Speech
from the Throne. If concessions were ever to be made they should
be granted in a time of peace and national tranquillity, and they
ought not to wait for a period of alarm and apprehension. Allusion
had been made to the inquiry into the mate of Ireland, which heel
taken place berme their Lordehips. Ile thought that inquiry,
which, it would he in the remembrance of the House, he had been
among the first to recommend, formed a most important feature ia
the case of Ireland. He confessed he was not able to come re>
exactly the same conclusion from the evidence afforded by that
inquiry which Nome Noble Lords appeared to draw. Their Lord
ships had received some infermation from the mouths of most ua-
impeachable witnesses, which went to show that they, in common
with the people of England, had been surprisingly ignorant of the
true state of the sister country. They could not be said to be in
that state at present, with the evidence afforded by that inquiry
before them. But a Noble Lord appeared to have drawn a very
different conclusion from that which he felt disposed to draw from
that evidence. That Noble Individual considered emancipation as
a mere pretence, and not the object really sought by the Roman
Catholics. !le( Lord Darnley) was not disposed to concur in that
opinion ; and when lie heard the assertion was almost inclined to
disbelieve the evidence of his sen•es. Ile referred to the undoubted.
testimony of witnesses on oath before their lordships for a con-
futation of that opinion. Ile did not think it fair to compare and
contrast the sentiments of individuals, when heated by political anti
polemical discussion, with their calmly expressed opinions, and their
sworn testimony. Ben he was content to put aside and not advert
to the evidence of Mr. O'Connell and Dr. Doyle before the Corn.
metre. net in justice to those individuals, he felt bound to say
that if the one had had the good fortune to have been educated in
the established religion of the country, he would have graced Lest
Right Rev. Bench, and funned en ornament to it by his piety
and learning. ,}or the men gentlemen, Mr. O'Connell, under dif
ferent circunistahees, lie (Earl Darnley) thought he would not have
disgraced the 'Woolsack. But as he had said, he would put due
evidence of those two individuals altogether out of the question,
and quote the evidence of a gentleman of the greatest integrity,
and who had merited and received the confidence of the present
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland—he meant Mr. Blake. The Marquis
Wellesley, in compliance with the spirit of the law, had placed that
individual in a sitnation of trust and importance, although he was
'Catholic. That Gentleman being asked his opinion of the effect of
the thodifitseion of the elective franchise in Ireland, answered ie
these words—" I am satisfied that it would not weaken, bee
strengthen the Protestant inte.est in Ireland; and I assure your
Lordships, that it I did not think it would have that eft:et—if L
thought ft would go to disturb the Protestant eettlemere in Ireland,
not one of your Lordships would disapprove of it more heartily
than i should. The Protestant church In Ireland is a great link ex
the chain which connects Great Britain and Ireland together; and
with the security of that connection, I am satisfied the in..
tercets of Ireland are essentially identified." If the dog.
mu and doctrines of the Lateran Council, and the Council
of Trent, were to be taken as a preferable authority, and
applied, and mtnapplied, toehe present question, he had no more to
say I but if their Lordships were disposed to believe Mr. Blake
upon his oath, they must then admit that there existed no wish on
the part of the Roman Catholics to subvert the Protestant Estee
blishments in Church or State.. Ile (Earl Darnley) was prepared
to give a flat denial to the existence of any such wish or intention.
But it had been urged, that if their Lordships entrusted political
power to the Roman Catholics, they would abuse it. This was as
objection that scarcely deserved a serious answer. The effect of
the passing of the present Bill would be only to admit five or six
noble families to scats in that house, which had long been their
birthright, and of which they had been deprived by means of a
flagitious plot, got up for the purpose by a band of perjurer;
and informers. Was it to be supposed that those Noble Petra
would attempt a plot for the overthrow of the Constitution,
and that the 'Mike of 'Norfolk, and the Earl of Shrewsbury, oa
their admission into that House would, instantly set about the de-
struction of the establishments of the country. For his part, he
looked upon the powdered wigs of the superior clergy to be quite as
essential to the reiteration of orthodoxy among us, as the main-
tenance of Catholic disability. Ile repeated, that the perpetuation
of that clerical ornament—the wig—was as necessary to the purity
of the Protestant clergy, as the perpetuation of Catholic exclusion
was to the safety of the Protestant Establishment. It was obely ate
argument too ludicrous to be insisted on, that besause the increased
intelligence and ability of the Roman Catholic' entitled them to
a ;ere to high offices In the State. they should be therefore excluded
from their enjoy:rent. It had been asserted that a large number
of Roman Catholics would immediately find their way into
Lower House on the repeal of the existing disqoalifications. He
did not think so, for lie was of opinion representation would always
go with the greater weight of property. Whence, he would ask,
were the Catholics to come into Parliament ? 'Was it from this
country or Scotlaitd ? He thought not. And as to Ireland, he
was perruaded, from what he saw and knew of that country, that
the elections would not be influenced by the religion of the can.
ablate., but by the natural and predominating weight of property-
Ile did not think that if this Bill were to be passed, many Roman
' Catholic Commoners would obtain seats in the Lower House ; he
thought not more than about double the number that would be.
conic entitled as Peers to sit with their Lordships. The effect of
such a very small number of inditedures must be very trifling in-
deed, even supposing them to harbour the intentions so errone-
ous] y attributed to them. It had been said, that the tenor
of the Coronation (lath precluded the King of England from ad-
mitring the Roman Catholics to the enjoyment of power: in hist
opinion it did no such thing. The substance of that oath went
to bind the Monarch to uphold the Protestant Church and
Establishment ; how they would be endangered by the admission of
a few Catholics to the privilege of holding seats in the two flosses
of Parliament, he could not imagine. With respect to the petitions,
which had been numerously enough, he would admit, presented to
their Lordships, against the messing of the present Bill, he doubted
whether they spoke the entire sense of the cottrary. Great numbers
of the people were undoubtedly diepused, naturally enough, to
follow and adopt the sentiments oftheir spiritual teachers, and the
latter were known to be hostile to theCatholk claims. A petition had
been laid on their Lordships' table from the cities of London and
eVestmineter, and it was numerously signed, against the Bill. fie
believed it would be easy to procure signatures to any petition
t • u ect
a different feeling was arising among the Protestantes:et ;,treot.e,tiints,
iw,horadtsoLrertfietAeni,
oothit:illafkh
ri
mtwolerehiostiemtnaireesmtyo.‘se twheuNncoabisf.e In tier:l.o,nel
of Catholic claims. lie referred to the petition from
,Pthroetesprtan
indeed more so.,
was as muds their canoe as that of the Catholics, and
toefmtahrakt.
us in Ireland who could lay
And he believed three were few ees
few!'
remain as they were.
their hands nn their heartland ettee
to timeliest itself on the part
There was a been. feeling beginning ,
nietstanutentwTereFbengnitaxmlagnghiol.PeeiCgt anion
i:nnciopfatihoisn,
spirit prevailing towar‘lv their Catholic fellow-countrymen, and he.
popidetion of Ireland, and a more Christien-like
:elle-satisfaction to say, that a eserson most nearly
with him, and of whose qualities of' heart and need he
would much rather reacts should weak, had already taken the lead
of that better and more Christian feeling, because he was well coo.
vinced that things could not remain as they were at present, and
ch:itefritinhecteligie:rseou°";
diet the way to ensure w.f...ty to the state was not by the enactment
of a renal e ale. Their lendsliipe must either assent to the Hilt
sow before them, or they most enact some other measure that should
have the tendency to assuage the agitation which a long serie.s of
opprectiye lees had at length reduced on the Catholiebody of
the Irish people; Something inure must be done than bad hitherto

toy/

;#'n

•;

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~;lS

. ~...~+a

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"%47-.

AR

P*.l, !r' t

beta amomplisbed, in order to settle this great and important
glieStioll-4 question which never could be settled unless their
Lordships felt towards the Catholics of Ireland as towards fellow-
Bikinis, entitled to share and enjoy the privileges of the Constitu-
tion equally with themselves. There were but two ways ooiy by
whick'thie question could be set at rest. The one which he should
recommend to their Lordships to adopt was conciliation, which
meld only 110 effected by their aerating to the measure now before
:he House. wh:ch came supported by the Representatives of the
people and the prayers of their coinitiniente. By doing this act,
which reason, policy, and justice alike demandud, they would be
seeurirg to themselves a tower of strength in the undivided affec-
tions of Irishmen. He would appeal to the Noble Lord opposite
Olarquis Camden) who knew well the value and impor-
tance of that country, and entreet him to secure the gra-
titude of a people whose hearts were warm and susceptible of
the best feelings, by acceding to the present Bill. This country,
powerful as it now was in its wealth, its strength, and its intellec-
tual greatness, would by the passing of this Bill derive an acees-
sson or moral and physical influence that would raise it still higher
in the estimation of surrounding nations. Their Lordships must
to aware that Ireland was not in that situation in which she ought
to stand ; they knew that her power was rendered useless, if not
dangerous to this country, by the continual excitements that were
.operating upon her people ; they could not be insensible that, in the
words of Burke. they had created a bank of discontent in that
eountry, which waa constantly accuunula.ine, and from which their
enemies would draw materials subversive of their dearest interest,.
The Bill now before their Lonlehips would remove that discoetent ;
hut whilerhey continued these galling and degrading disabilities,
and kept.up thinfevetish irritation, this perpetual blister, it would
be impossible to restore tranquillity to Ireland, and hopeless ever
Cl conciliate her people It was perhaps possible, by the powerful
id of a hundred thouilind armed men, to suppress for a time any
temvuleion in that country, anal prevent it from separating itself
horn England ; but lookiog at the spirit of the age. and comm.
pkiting the common course of events, which their lordehips had a
eight.reecalcu7ate apon, a time might come when such a power
wruld not avail, and the evil which was at present too remote to
cache alarm would at length arrive, when it would be fruitless to
legislate. Let us then look forward to that period o: danger when
we should want the warm hearts and faithful adherence of the Irish
people, and by a judicious act, no less demanded by policy than by
yistice, secure to ourselves their as yet unalienated affections. If
their ordships were &Arms to effect this—if they really valued
Ireland and sought to win her, and reader her a component part of
this country, they would seize the moment now offered to them to
accoiiplish their object, The present was a glorious opportunity
for binding that country to us in the indissoluble bonds of affection
and interest, which if they did not secure might never offer again.
Circumstances had occurred to which he would not more particu-
larly allude, but Circumstances had recently occurred which node
this the best and most peculiar time for consummating this mea-
sure; for circumstaocea might again occur alien they would. not
have the power, however strong they mig:it possess the will, to
effect it.
The Earl of LONGFORD felt somewhat embarrassed in ad-
dressing their Lordships upon the very important immure now un-
der discupion, owing to the reculiar situation in which he was
placed with regard to the Catholics of Ireland. Living as he did
in the midst of them, observing their conduct, and regarding them
as neighbours and friends, he was induced to speak of them with
feelings of high regard, their demeanour being such as reflected
credit on them ; but considering the peculiar tenets of their faith,
Red the influence exercised over them by their priests, he was ap-
prehensive that the present measure might be attended with many
evils to this country ; and for this reason he should, as he had uni-
formly done, oppose it. The Bill .now proposed to be adopted
came in a less unexceptionable shape than any former one. It nail
been the nature of the former measures to be an some respects par-
tial, and his objections to them were consequently so too • but now
the objections which he entertained were general, and he believed'
of a much more formidable description. In giving his opposition
to the measure he was actuated by no hostility to the Roman
Catholics ; on the contrary, he had endeavoured to lifter his present
opinion, and to entertain one favourable to their views, but the re-
wilt of his endeavours had been a firmer conviction of the inexpe-
dience and dangerous tendency of emancipation. Ile would once
fur all mention those reasons which had operated to produce this
conviction on his mind ; and he would do so very briefly, inns ouch
as their Lordships had often heard them repeated. Ile dial not
oppose the measure on account of the religion of the Catholics ; he
had no wish to interfere with their theological tenets, nee to canvass
their opinion upon that subject, no more than their Lordships were
'd,eposed to allow them to interfere with the faith of the Protestants.
But his reasons for opposing the Bill were on the ground of the
political circetnstances connected with the Roman Catholic
and which he conceived were inseparable from that religion, which
was not purely of a spiritual nature, but mixed up with matters
entirely political. It was his opinion, that this complex charac-
ter which it assumed, was in consequence of the influence which the
'Catholic priesthood exercised over the laity, not merely in spiritual
concerns, (hear, hear,) for of such an influence he was far from
making any complaint, but the priests swayed a power over the
minds of the people in matters egclusively temporal. (Hear, hear.)
Ard this was almost inevitable from the extraordinary command
-which their religion gave them over the moral feelings of their con-
gregation. For how could the demarcation be ascertained where
'the spiritnal teacher should cease, and the temporal power begin?
How could the moral influences be restricted to a certain limit ? It
was important then to consider what was the nature of this priest-
'hood. They were, it was known, a regular body of men, well di.
racted, well organised. and well disciplined. They were men sub-
'Sated to the superintendence and control of the superior orders of
their persuasion, and a due and strict subordination was maintained
throughout their body, till the whole power concentrated in the
Pope: When lie considered this fact, he could not but think that
the preamble of the Bill did not express the whole truth. It might
be correct so far as it went, but it did not state die full extent to
..wh!eh its provisions would inevitably lend if carried into a law.
Although his principal objection to this Bill was on account of the
eetraottlinary and dangerous power exercised by the priesthood over
the minds of the Catholics in political matters, yet he was aware
there were many honourable exceptions belonging to their body.
H. knew there were Catholics of high and generous feeling, of
I b cal and enlightened ntieds, who would reject all such interference
iir,th the political opinions of the people, and consider it neither
worthy of their religion, nor becoming the allegiance they owed the
'tete, to irritate the passions, and excite the dissatisfaction of their
laity towards the Government or the Protestant establishment.
'But we werenot here topass eulogiums on any particular persons;
we were here to legislate respecting the Catholic body in general.
The arguments which had been urged in support of the Bill were,
in his judgment, vet inconclusive and unsattsfactory• it had
bean asked why the Catholics should be excluded from the privi-
leges of the Constitution any more than any other dais of Dia.
%enters, who were said to form as distinct • church as die Catho-
iies themselves, and to be as opposed to the established religion of
the country. But this was contrary to the fact. Among all the
ear ova classes of Dissenters none appear to biro to bear that
teeter except the Roman Catholics. They bore that character first
in regard of their connection with the Pope, and next with* regard
to their connection with us. flow could they stand by us ? What ,
had we done to them ? Were we other than Dissentere from their

creed ? Usurpers of their property ? It was asked why were the
Ca-holica to be dreaded more than other Dissenters ? Ile would
-answer, it was because other Dissenters were voluntary Dissenters
from our creed ; we did not dissent from them, but they from us ;
not so, however, with respect to the Roman Catholics, who
sought to suppress us and the Dissenters too, as heretics front
their faith. When therefore he found the Dissetitets joining
with us to oppose the Catholics, he could perfectly understand it
both upon principle and expediency,. There had been much said
about a prejudice existing in regard to this question. It was most
true that such did exist, and was it not natural ? Upon a point
like this, where everyman must feel from his very infancy, it would
be futile to deny that the mind was biassed. Were there nut close
connections by blood, by alliance, by friendship, and were these
not sufficient to bias the mind, and influence the judgment? Bat
right not there motives equally operate on the minds of the friends
as well. as of the opponents to Catholic Emancipation ? lie
thought there might, and that these causes prejudice did not lie
altogether on one side. But It wag said upon this allegation of
prtjudice, that we might succeed In extinguishing the principles of
religicn, but we could not those of human nature. Ile thought the
argument applied equally well on the part of the opponents of the
Catholics. Their Lordships had heard much insisted on the in.
justice of withholding from a portion of the people their rights ;
tint he would reply that it had ever been an acknowledged tuaxim,
•' That the interests of the many should be always preferred before
that of the few ;" and upon this ground, whatever might be the j
abalract right of the Boman Catholics, yet if it was fur the interests
of The people at large that 9iat right should be restrained, he ron-
ceived there was no injustice in restraining it. Their Lordships
tiad been further appealed to on the ground of the expedleatcy.of
the measure. There had been threats held out, and a menacing
tone assumed towards them ; but if he were under the impression I
that those threats were real, it would be the first reason with him I

tO refuse the least concession ; lie, however, was not under that
impression. H e begged their Lordships to look back to the period
when the restrictions complaibcd of were imposed; and he would
.a, had we not been going on under those restrictions in a pro-
gressive Advance towards wealth and glory? Power and
talent had gradually developed themselves, until the country
bid attained a point of greatness that made it the ad-
ma/Rion of the world. There was one reason why it was
manifestly inexpedient that the Hill should now be passed. Ac-
cording ter the constitutional process of this country, the time would
soon approach when the sense of the people would be taken, and
then their Lordships would have an opportunity of seeing whether
the adtoeitee of this measure were justified in stating that it was
the sense of the people. In his opinion they were not. It was
impossible to pitserve linearity to the Protestant religion unless the
Protestant ascendancy were secured. His conviction on the Case
c that to." _
paxs.because lie thought justice
•I of it, expediency demand it,
reasons he should vote against
the Bill, but in a speech
and was for some time in_
:nee of the low tone in which
Prelate's turning his face from
acted sentences throughout the
first words we heard from
ring on the cruel injuries
nt loyal subjects, by with-.
~e onetiantion ; and which,
bring imminent danger on the
'et was decidedly in Le-
I.ordships, and if be trove
asking whether there Was 411

- te.
country againselt ? elf their botelshapiewoulel examine the history
of their own times the cenlel not Mid a single Christian State so.
disgraced by pereecutlien as England. He weekt ask of Noble
Look, wife were Motile to this Bill, to point out to him a single
country that was tree cal with so great persecution cosy portion of its '
iniesiMente, as the Catholics of Ireland were treated by the Con-
I sti•utien of this country. .1 very able book had lately appeared,
the authert of which wash member of the other House of rarlia-
, ment, upon this subject, in es hich he shewed theent comity of it
politically; hut he would deal with it in another point of view, avid
I appeal to the commandment of his Melee Master, which staid—
•• do unto miler+, as we would that others should do unto us ;" and
he would ask their Lordships if, aceordwg to that divine injune•
lion, this concession would be refused? For himself he would say,
let the Chutch of England fall if it (veld not be maintained in
unison with that heavenly precept. It might perhaps be inquires:
of bum whether he was prepared to abide by the conditions of the
result that his opinion might lead to ; for that result might he the
sloes of all those worldly honours, and the seat that he had the
privilege to be entitled to in that (louse. To this ques-
tion he would give a very short anti a very sincere answer. .
II worldly bulletin could only he shared by the oppression of so
I many millions of Ida fellow-subjects, lie would not wish to hold
1 therm These were Lis sincere opinions, and had been so for hells a
' century, and he was now no old to change them ; he would not
say that lie never should change them ; that would be too rash an
resumption ler one operated silem by the ever-changing scene of
human life. (Hear, hear.) But he did not beliele that he should
ever alter his opinion upon this point. As to the political part of
the question, it was not within the limits of his functions tn ad-
vert to it ; and if it were, It had been too ably fuel too often argued
by some eh' the wisest men who ever live I, for hint to presume to
obtrude Its °pinnies upon their Lordships, es to the policy of the
measure; but thus much he weuld take the liberty to urge upon
thee Lordships, that if concessions did not take place, events
might occur at no distant period, that they could neither control
nor prevent.
Lied CA RBERY, as we understood, mimeo's] the Bill ; but
not one complete sentence of his LorelshioN speech reached below
the bar.
The Bishop of CHESTER rase—A great sensation was excited
in the Mouse as soon as their Lortlehip+ perceived the Right
Per. Prelate on his legs, and the contusion that followed pee-
ye:4cl us from hearing the first seittcecee of his address. The
first words we caught, his Lordship was centre-ming the House in
these words--My Lords, I have risen ender embarrassments of a
very peculiar nature, to oppose the measure under your Lordships'
consideration, whichoinder whatever point of view I look at it, only
gives me a choice of evils. I most sincerely lament that I am-
compelled to differ from persons for whom I entertain the highest
respect and affection, and for whose political experience I have the
most decided deference ; but teere are acts of duty that must be
performed. and s man is compensated only in the performance of
them by knowing . that they arc acts of duty. I have. howerer,
the satisfaction of reflecting, that on the most mature deliberation,
I am come to the opinion I now hold on this delicate and distress-
ing subject ; and I have taken up this deliberate opinion in con-
tradiction to one that I had previously formed, and which, upon the
most mature conviction. I have been compelled to give up. When
my tided first opened, its impressions were strongly in favour of
religious freedom; my heart beat high in favour of it, and I was
. struck with the necessity that the Catholics should be admitted to
the privileges of the Constitution ; 1 would not brook the idea
that so many millions of my fellow.subjecta should be debarred
from those tale wings that I enjoyed, and I acted up to this impres.
lion; but when I regarded with more care and experience the
doctrines of the Catholies,and reflected on the necessity of a religious
I establishment which must be pre-eminent to be effective; when I re-
fleet also upon the miseries brought into Europe by the Catholics;
1 when I berseite convinced that the Catholic religion was unchanged,
I felt that it was my duty to recant opinians prematurely termed,
1 in favour of those diet experience had taught me were sound.
But it may be said that I do not conic to the discussion of
this important question wills impartiality. It has been asserted
that we have opposed this measure from prejudiced motives ;
but I will ask, what right have the Protestant Bishops of Eng-
land to be tints traduced ? And is there any thing in their con-
duct, as connected with this Bill, or apart from it, that should
subject them to each calumny. Protestant Bishops of England have
in former times set a noble example of bold endurance. When the
seven Protestant Bishops arrayed themselves against a Popish
King, could their motives be misunderstood ? Nothing but the
tweet flame of holy zeal for what they believed to be the true
faith could have caused them to act with the firmness they did,
under the most trying circumstances. To hesitate as to their
motives was out of the question; and I have no doubt a
similar ambition would actuate their less illustrious suc-
cessors, should a similar occasion require it. We have heard,
my lolds—not, indeed, on this evening, thought it was
even now alluded to, but in the course of the discussion of this
momentous oneetion—we have repeatedly been told of the injustice
and cruelty of depriving four or five millions of our fellow-subjects
of their indefeasible and inalienable rights, on account of their reli-
gious opinions. But why, my Lords, has the supposed number of
these agerievol parties been thus dock upon and paraded so often
before us ? Whether they be four hundred or four millions, there
can be no difference in the justice of the principle which is applied
to them. If the roposed concessions be just and politic, they
elionlil be made to four hundred ;if unjust and impolitic, it is our
duty to refuse Ahem to four million+. (Heer, hear, hear.) The
calculation of number* should be laid our of view, as an element
that does not properly enter into the consideration of the quell-
non. If' these concessions be demanded on the ground of inde-
feasible and natural right, I will ask you, my Lorene whether
there is any civil immunity which indiriduals may not be called
upon to forego, when the public safety requires it ? Yet we have
Wen told of the injustice of excluding a large part of our fellows.
subjects from the exercise of political power; as if their exclusion,
under circumstances that jnetify ir, is not a principle recognised by
the Constitution. Many of our fellow-subjects are denied all share
in the enactment of the laws by which they are governed, because
they do not possess a certain amount of property ; but this surely is
net a more justifiable reason than the nature of their opinions. The
excluded Individuals in each case suffer the same kind of injustice, '
if I must so call it. The only difference is, that in one (wee the
criterion is certain—ln the other it is uncertain. But tliii difference
is not applicable to the case of the Boman Catholics, whose prin- ,
ciples are fixed and notorious. There can be no doubt then, my
Lords, that men's; civil rights may be foreclosed when the public
safety or welfare requires the 'sacrifice. Is not the right to a voice
in the election of Members of the Legislature' more sacred than
the mere right of admissibility to the Legislature itself? Yet, my
Lords, this greater violation of natural justice is committed against
the individual not possessing a certain amount of property, while
the Roman Catholic can complain only of being excluded trom
forming part of the Legislature. This is the only injustice, as it is
called, which we propose still to inflict upon a portion of our fellow.
subjects. flaying thus, 1 trust, disposed of the principal argument
is favour of the Roman Catholics, I throw back with disdain the
minor solecisms of the debate. The ablest advocates of the doctrine
of natural right are obliged to submit that the civil rights of
men in society may be limited by political expediency, and
restricted by public authority, when the safety of the State
is concerned. This is an important feature in this question,
according to the view I take of it, and it is also the very view
which the friends of the measure themselves take of it. The
principle for which I contend is recognised and embodied in the
Bill now on your Lordships' table. That Bill gives the Roman
Catholics some eights. but withholds others, to which they are,
however, equally an well entitled, on the grounds assumed by their
advocates. By this Bill the Roman Catholics are forbidden to
aspire to certain offices, particularly that of Lord Chancellor, which
assuredly would be the noblest object of ambition to a Roman Ca-
tholic barrister, as his exclusion from it must be. according to the
reasoning used on the other side, the bitterest degradation. Vet
' from this very office the Roman Catholics were to be excluded with
their own cement. One of the priests of that religion, Michael
Collison, in his examination befbre your Lordships, said that they
would consent to be excluded from die office of Lord Chancellor,
front a sense of the necessity of the exclusion • and when questioned
as to the meaning of the necessity of the exclusion. he replied that
he alluded to the general impression among the Protestants that Ro-
man Catholics ought not to be appointed to that office. On
i the soundest principles of constitutional justice, on the grounds
of universal usage, on the admission of the framers of this Bill, it
is then clear that there is no civil right dust may not he limited by
I political expediency. The absolute capacity to hold offices of great
trust and power, inherent in all subjects of the State, is a capacity
, not known to any Constitution, and in its nature inconsistent with
I the principles of every Government in the world. (Hear, hear.) I
; think, my Lords, I have now disposed of the question of natural
right. The next consideration is, whether there is any opinion that
can justly disqualify the individual who holds it from exercising
the civil rights generally enjoyed by. all other subjects. It has been
: remarked, my Lords, in the discussion of this question, with what
I justice I a-ill suet now stay to inquire. that an individual is no more
I answerable for his opinions that he is for the colour of his hair or
the structure of his body. For the sate of argument, admitting the
fitness of the comparison, I would ask, my Lords, whether there
: ore not constitutional peculiarities and personal defects that would
lastly disqualify any inellvielitel front the enjoyment of office?
; This disqualification is his misfortune—not his fault. lie is
not responsible for what he is to any one, but it is his duty to
I subunit with patience to the disqualification which nature has im-
; posed upon loin. The real question is, then, whether the opinions
of the Roman Catholics are such as should disqualify them efrom
holding officer of mist and power, and especially from sitting
lin the Legislature in a Protestant country. There is en-
! other quest on—whether the dangers of the present crisis arc
, so serious and. imminent ns to induce yourberdeltips, in or.
! der to avert them, to consent to a great violation of the
principles of the Constitution. There is yet another question—
whether the measure before us would answer its intended purpose
of pacification? Ido confess, try Lords, that this last appears to
me a most important consideration. sly berth, it there is one
point more clearly established than another in the evidence taken
before your heed:ships' Committee it is this--that up to a recent
date, I Joey say up to the present moment, the disturbed state of
Irelard has had little or nothing to do with the disabilities of the
Roman Catbellier. That unhappy country is the prey of a much
greater evil ; it is blighted by a more malignant in Mortice ; it suffers
from a more deeply-seated awl inveterate, but I trust in God not
an tecurahle, disease. All the witnesses concurred in stating that
the proximate causes of the distresseof Ireland are a miserable pea-
santry, and a radically vicious state of society. of which I will
venture to say. if your Lordships will cotelescend to take the opie
pion of one so young and inexperienced in political questions,
that it requires the prompt application of the specific remedy of
statistic legislation. In that country the landowner's place is sup.
plied by ;helloes of inferior station arid education. There exists an
uitnatural and mischievous system of sub- tenancy, which, by an
unaccouotakde climax of citation, squeals hoax tbs wretched cul-
.

•
1

soot that this nieasureought not to pass,ly
si.l rot exact it, the Constitution admit of
necessity require it, arid for those cease
J., motion.
The Bishop of LA NDA FF opposed t
wi.;ch was quite inaudible.
The Bishop cf NORWICIJ rose and
audible below the liar. Idconsequenee a
t 1 he spoke, and from the Right Rev. Prela
I the HAL we could only catch unconnected
of his Lordship's address. 'Etc fit
the Right Rev. Prelate, he Was olyservin,
you after year heaped upon five millions
bolditti; from them the pr+vleres of the I_
in his comielar.ce, he believed would bring
suited church of Ungl, td aced Ireland.
'flue of the •seasnre then before their I.
waked why t Ise would answer, by 'skit.