The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1824-04-09 00:00:00

l'St'RY LAWS.

On the motion of SergeXntf:lNSlOl47, that the House resolve
itself into a Committee 011 the I Laws,
Mr. B. COOPER said be had heard no argument in favour of
the Hill, which was so satisfactory as to induce him to agree to the
proposed measure. The first was, that thew: laws were infringed
upon ; but the infraction of a law was not a sufficient reason fee its
repeal. The Hon. Member proceeded to refute the other lege.,
menus which bad been advanced in favour of this Bill, and con.
eluded by moving, that this Bill be read again this day six
months.
Mr. DAVENPORT considered the report which had been fur.
Milled to the House deserved only to be called the skeleton of a
report, then compared with the magnitude of the subject. The pre.
sent Bill would, in his opinion, operate injuriously to the revenue
and interests of commerce. This Bill would also tend to disgrace
a very respectable body of men who were at present the pride and
ornament of the country, namely, the English merchants, who, if
this Bill were permitml to pass, would beanie dealers in money
instead of dealers in merchandise. (Hear, hear.) He implored
Ministers not to alter that system of laws on this subject which cur
ancestors had established.

Mr. L. FOSTER reminded the 11011/W that these laws, as they
at present stood, had continued for three hundred years, under
which a greater influx of capital had flowed into this country than
into any other nation. The measure would operate with peculiar
severity and oppression on the landed proprietary of Ireland. Tn.
tides to landed property in Ireland were extremely complicated,
and it was an extremely difficult matter to chew a clear title to the
several estates Ot gentlemen there. His great practical objection
to this measure was, that under such circumstances the creditor un-
der the present Bid would impose unjust and intolerable terms on
debtors in the loans a hich they would contract with them. Indeed
he apprehended if the present Bill were to pass, many who now
paid 6 per cent. would be compelled to pay 10 per cent. or upwards,
merely front the difficulty of proving their titles. On this gm.'
he would oppose the Speaker's leaving the Chair. If this Bill
were now to pass, he would at least endeavour to preserve its
consistency, by moving that those antecedent acts, which Wen
before illegal, but which this Bill would go to legalize should,
after the passing of this Bill, be declared to be legal. Ile
WAS induced to offer these observations from a feeling of the in-
jurious; tendency and eflect which this measure would hare au
the interests of Ireland.

Mr. ROBERTSON was surprised that none of the responsible
Ministers of the Crown were in their places, on the discussion of so
important a subject. In his opinion this measure was fraught with
the greatest mischief to the interests of the country. The opinions
of Mr. A. Smith were quoted in support of this Bill, but the mo-
dern theories which were formed by 31r. Ricardo and others were
founded in a misconception of the real principles of Mr. Adam
Smith. Money could not be bought and sold like other common.
dines ; money was always of the mine value. A sovereign was
worth twenty shillings here and at Manchester, but a bale of cot-
ton was not of the same value here and there. The Honourable
Member complained that the persons examined before the Com-
mitta on these laws were composed of lawyers, merchants, and
brokers. This was the very class of !arsons whom these laws were
enacted to curb and restrain. The Bill ought to be argued on prin.
ciples of experience, and not of mere theory. Of the practice
and expaience of other countries he would refer to Sir J. Malcolm's
Cott, al India ; there the advancanent made by bankers partakes
less of a low than of a subscription, of which the lenders paths
cipate in the interest and profit. This practice had become so in-
jurious, that supervisors were sent out to inspect and correct the
practice. He would refer next to home—not to Rome in ha
downfall and degradation, but to the proudest period of her free.
ism. The great bane and misery she sustained flowed from those
practices of usury, which lie was desirous of averting from this
country. The Senwe was often appealed to—sometimes for the
cancelling those debts—soinetinies for the suspension of payments ;
and they even were wont to refuse to meet the enemy, who ap..
proached to the gates of the city, unless the Senate complied with
their requests. Thus a perpetual struggle was the consequence of
these usurious practices. Even Clear, when he returned victori-
ous from Spain, had to encounter the inquietude and discontent
that arose from the extent to which &baneful system of usury pre.
railed. Money had always too much influence in this country. irith
these views he should certainly oppose the measure.
Sir H. PA KNELL observed, that the lion. Member who had
spoken last had laid down sonic very singular doctrines, not merely
opon the Usury Laws, but upon political economy generally. The
Hon. Member had not confined himself to the qneation : he had
wandered to India in varch of elucidations, and China was pecu-
liarly delightful to him. Hut he (Sir H. Parnell) objected to being
sent to India (is laugh) for principles of political economy. The
Hon. Member had overlooked the nature of the interest of money,
and had referred, with the lion. Member fur Louth (Mr. L. Foster),
to the long experience we had of these laws ; but if they hod been
lernicious, with respect to the best interests of the country', the
ength of their existence should he no argument in their favour.
The Hon. !Wernher for Louth had stated that the passing of this
law would be ruinous in Ireland : he (Sir H. Parnell) did not be.
lieve the general embarrassment of the country justified the use-
Lion. There was not prodigality amongst the proprieton of estates
in that country to justify the position for which the Hon. Member
for Louth contended. lie thought the proposed measure promised
great benefit, and he should therefore give it his support.
Mr. CU RW'EN observed, that as it was desirable to assimnste
the law to the practice, end as at present juries found directly the
reverse of the law, he should support this measure.
Mr. SYKES commenced with remarking, that the Hon. Menu
ber for Grampound ( Mr. Robertson) had traversed over the shade
habitable world; he had travelled through the regions of the tar.
restrial world, and had almost touched upon the confines of the
celestial. Ile hod discovt red that alr. Ricardo and Mr. Bentham
were utterly unacquainted with this subject, and it had been re-
served for him alone to make new discoveries, and to point out the
; truth upon this subject. Not one lion. Member had contended
for the justice of the niaaaure, of the law as it now stood. But the
I law was as impolitic as it was unjust ; it was liable to abuse; an
annuity liChellie destroyed and vitiated the etreet of the law. This
ruinous system of annuities had brought many a gentleman of con-
siderable fortute to irretrievable and arreinediable misery. He was
surprised at the infatuation of country gentlemen, who thought
that the repeal of the law would prove injurious to their interests,
They were just in the condition described by the Roman poet.
ignorant of the real benefits which would How to them from this
repeal— " Fortunati nemum sua si tona norint."
I The Hon. Member for Grampound had said, that money could not
be bought. Where did he learn that doctrine? Was it from the
virtuous Brater, or was It furnished from time stores of some philo-
sopher of Central India? Hear.) If the Hon. Member was a
trader, he bougnt money every day. (Hear.) tie (Mr. Sykes)
wished to know what charm there was in the number 5, and how
was it that it was limited, the rate of interest, to 5 ? He remem-
bered that long since—the lion. Member fur Gram and would
not like it the worse for its antiquity—in the reign of Queen Eliza-
beth,a gentleman of the name of Wilson—he had no doubt a for-
mer Member for Granipound (a laugh), had contended that all
interest upon money was a damnable heresy, and should be pu-
nished with death. Now, in this there was something like prin-
ciple, but he really could see no principle in the mouthings of those
who opposed the repeal, and yet permitted interest to be taken on
money. He should, from a perfect conviction of its beneficial ten-
dency, support the measure.

A HT denied that the law, u it now existed, had
been prod... cure of the slightest injury. He knew that many grave
arguments had been used upon this subject, yet he felt hunalf in
the condition of a celebrated personage, who was frequently alluded
to by 31r. Addison, in contest with Sir Amdres Frerpoit, in the
Spectator, and who constantly observed to the worthy liaronet,
• that much might be said on both sides." lie did not mean
however to tirUow the lion. Member who spoke last,
through al
his arguments. That lion. Member had asked if any one dee
fended these laws upon their justice. There was a question of e.-
pediency as well as justice ; and it was well known that when
money got into the hands of a few, and that was the nsturr e f
I money, it had at all times been productive of evils to States. It
' wasso stated b., Tacitits, and he might be considered a pedanttor
citing such an authority. He was tar from being a dogwatist, be
was merely a sceptic on this subject. lie could not presume to set
bounds to the sentiment and feeling of money-lenders. It was
probable their liberality would be bouneless, but he did not choose
to confide to them. %VIIy should the lion. Member, who had
brought forward this measure, hurry it on with such suviciaas
iwteipitancy ? Why not adopt his own motto, and go on slow
with this measure ? (A laugh.) With these remarks he should
feel it his duty to oppose the measure.
Mr. PHILLIPS said that it was assumed by the opponents cf
the proposed measure, that the usury laws were beneficial to the
landed interest lie would, for the sake of argument, admit they
were, but was that a reason for continuing them? bat he was
arguing upon an admission which he fed no right to make. The
lion. and Learned Gent. had objected to the Report. By whom
was the evidences furnished ? Not by those who could be supposed
to have any interest in the question, Conveyancers and lare..
agents were amongst those who spoke of the pernicious conse-
quences of the present law.
Mr. ATWI.H)I) rose, but from the situation occupied by the
Honourable Member (under the gallery), his remark* were tomer-
reedy heard. lie objected to the interference which was implied
in the very enactment of these laws. Two persons were prohibited
front making a bargain, because money was the commodity in
width they dealt, and the law atrorded nut to them an equal Fr:-

teetion. Tl.zre was one ground urn 'Mc% the proposed alteration
was resisted to which lie was salamis to call the attention of the
Ilium. It was said that under the existing laws Government was
enabled to proceed to the money market upon more advantageous
terms than they could in the event of a repeal of those laws. He
believed that this was true in point of Lie; but he was desirous of,
knotting upon what grounds it was that the Government was
red.:lel to go into the market on terms distinct front and superior
to every other purchaser. What justico was there in such a privi.
lege % If the Government had such a privilege in the one case,
what was to prevent them front reducing the price of any other
oracle which State necessity, as it was teemed, might require ?
When the usury laws woe paned this country had comparatively
no commerce; the mercantile interest bad then little amens in the
L,gislature. The land-owners made the law, and for their own
advantage, as they conceived. They would have given no interest
at all it they could have extracted the money front the pockets of
th• Jews without any. The liouse would better imitate the wisdom
of our ancestors by making the laws suitable to the altered cit..
cumsiancem of the country, than by refusing to adapt them to the
ayitit of the stew, and the feelings ot the people
Mr. J. ri3IITH was decidedly of opinion that the repeal of the
usury laws would be a great public benefit. It was a mistake to
suppose that the alteration was required by the moneyed interest;
on the contrary, as far as he was acquainted with their opinion.,
he believed they were adverse to the measure. But it was im-
possible to carry, on the trade and commerce of the country, with.
out a perpetual invasion of these laws. It was a fact not to be
overlooked in this discussion, that usury laws had been invariably
abrogated with the growth and progress of knowledge and civili-
zation. In 'Jutland there were none, and certainly in no country
was there less vice, poverty, or misery.
Mr. Alderman liErliA IT contended that nobody wes in
favour of the Bill but great lawyers and capitalists. It was ad-
mitted by the friends of the Bill that this wax a most difficult
question. It could not be argued on &tame principles, but must
be considered as bound up with the vital interests of the country.
li the House sere legislating for a nnir colony it might be a fair
matter of experiment ; but when it wits recollected how this coon-
try was situated, in eonseeuence of the national debt, the existing
mortgages and entails, and other inctinil ranee% affecting the
landed property, it scented to him a short-sighted view of the
question to attempt to treat it as one of pure and abstract science.
He was aware that in these days it was an arduous task to defend
any ancient law, 1111%1 no this occasion he had to contend not only
with those who fancied they had made new discoveriesin politicet
economy, but also the weight of his 31ajnity's (imminent. The
11. n. Member for Taunton (Mr. Baring) had argued that it was
unjust to lay any restraint on the rate of interest, and a kind of
fraud on the money-holder, to limit the mode of its employment.
But that Hon. Gentlem in had surely forgotten that there was no
abstract right to the employment of money at all, but subject to
such restrictions as society chose to impose. hand was enjoyed,
subject to the burden of supporting the pony, the Church, and the
highways. On the same principle the Legislature had a right
to say the holders of money should only have a certain interest for
it. With respect to the good policy of the measure, it was certainly
desirable that the rate of interest should be rather low than high,
and filed than uncertain. It could not be denied that the usury
laws had been productive of great benefit to the country ; without
them the national debt would have reached 1200 or 1.100 millions.
flow would the pressure of half as much more taxation on the
people have operated on the prosperity of the ration ? Though
there was riot so much trade in the reign of Queen Anne as at
present, it was carrying the argument a little too far to ray there
was no trade at all. In conclusion, the worthy Alderman pledged
himself, in case this Bill should be rejeted, to introduce one for
rendering the penalties on usury more moderate, and adapted to
the amount and nature of the drenee.

Mr. T. was adverse to the Bill, as before the debates,
in which he had heard nothing to alter his opinion of its injurious
tendmcy The people of lloaand were more prudent and econo-
mical than the landaulders of th a country, who, fom th. e cum-
SUMP* n which they were plre 11 by the restrictiuus on t..rir
pto-
perry, wete compelled to borrow rather from necessity than choiee.
Mr. J. MARTIN said the Hon. Alderman tlleygate was
hour d by his own admission to vote f r the (.'ommitt,e, in which be
could propose the repeal of the severs penalties. it he was not in-
aline° to gn the whole length of the measure before the House.
Sir J. WROTTESIAX was apir e'rensive that the repeal of
the usury laws would prevent the setting aside of those fraudulent
transactions into which improvident youth were too frequently be-
trirosl by the arts of usurp.

Mr. Serge tnt / LON' said he should not have troubled the
House who • single observation, all the arguments against the Ilia
having been completely refuted in the course of the debste, but for
the purpose of explaining to the lion. Baronet Sir J. ‘l'enttesle,)
that the Bill would in no respect prevent the law from dealing as et
present with fraudulent bargains.
Mr. CALCKAFT minimal, that on a theor.iical view of th •
q les 'on he was not prepared to combo. the principles of the Bill,
b it if e.e learned S!:rgeant nteant to assnt that the prxzticil objec-
tions arising from the way in which the Bill would affect the landed
iroperty had been refu eI, he (Mr. C.) would contradict hint. The
hot.. Member fo • Callington had argued the question as it affected
the commercial i attests. and he (Mr. ('.) had no objection to repeal
the lass foe their benefit : hut as it h A not been sliewn that the
',aided in crest must not sure. rem the alteration, he would resist
it as to them. It was intontrovernble, that those who had now
lent money at a low rate of int,s-sst would, if the Bill passed, watch
for the moment :o raise it ; (Heir, hear,) instea I, therefore, of re.
girding the present restriction as unjust, he considered it a whole.
some restraint on avarice. (Hear, bear, hear.) He did not call in
question the conduct of capitalists, but he appealed to the history of
all nations, whether it had not been found necessary to interfere to
repress the extortion of usurers. He contended that there were
?ow, of that kind both in France and Holland. The experiment
had been tried in France, hut the worst effects had followed it.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Mouse divided,
when there appeared,

For going into the Committee, 71; Against it, 48; Blajori.y, 16.
On our return to the gallery, we found Mr. Sergeant ONSLOW
mai ing, that the blank in the first clause, for the time when the
Bill should begin to operate, should be filled up with the lit of
Ja mazy, 1821
Mr. CA LCRA FT argued, that a longer period should be granted
before the Legislature overact all the money transactions of the'
country. In the experiment about to be tried with the silk trade,
two years aid a half were to be allowed before the change was to
canmence. He was sure there was an expectation in the country
that this great alteration would not be suffered to conic upon it as it
were suddenly. In fact, the general opinion was that the hill
world not pass the House ; but an it had become the fashion there
to alter and revolutionise the institutions of the country, the ad.
brrents of the old law must now direct their attention to other
places, where changes were less favourably welcomed, as the only
chance of preventing this first misfortune.
Hr. Sergeant ONSIA)IV—I have no objection to substitute the
lit of January, Ilt2fi, if that will please the House. (A laugh, and
cries of: Not no.") Then let it remain 1825.
. .

31r. ROBgICTSbN maintained that the measure would prove a
(treat mischief to the country. By the Code Napoleon, which was
in force both in France and Millard, the rate of interest in those
countries was limited to .5 per cent. on landed securities. The
Hon. Gentleman, in support of his arguments, read a long speech
of M. Barthelemi on the article in that code relative to usury.
31r. LOCKHART said, that if the Bill should be repealed,
and the pawnbrokers allowed to demand what they pleased from the
poor, then would the poor be altogether at the mercy of those
people. Ile thought this argument should induce the House to
pause before they acted, and repealed those laws which more imme-
diately protected the poorer classes.
3lr. J. MARTIN made a few observations against the repeaL
Mr. IVIIITMO It I: said a few words on the same side.
Mr. I:ALCM:II'T said no one could know what the interest on
money might be on the Ist of January, 1t25. He was sure the
!louse would never inflict on the country such a punishment with-
out giving them a warning.
.%lr. WILSON did not see the grounds on which those
stivil who argued for the repeal; and so long as that was the case
hr would give tt his decided opposition. . .

Aldermin 11E1'0AI' ssi.drthat no one could tell what circurr-
stances might arise within a short period. Ile observed that in
17:12., his Majesty stated in his speech the Iliuse of Commons,
that it was hi. intention soon to reduce the interest on the natwoal
debt, yet within six months afterwards the interest was increased.
Another instance was the declaratiomon a former occasion, that the
country was in a state of great tranquillity, when six months alter
the country was involved in war.
111 r. HOME said that if a war were to take place, the country
would be obliged, instead of 4, to pay S per cent., and he thought
it would be unfair to allow the landed proprietor to hold money at
a le's rate than the government. Ile (Mr. flume) was sure that
the House was adopting a measure which would be beneficial to the
country, and useful to all parts of the community.
Sir. CA LCIIA FT said, that at the present moment It was held
is terror an over small borrowers in the country, to induce them to
borrow now.—that the rate of interest would be increased on the
tassing of the Learntil sergeant's Bill.
Mr. L. FO'il'Eß said there would be a continual dissgreement
between the borrower and the lender, on every change in the rate of
:Pterest; and this not only is immediate loans, but on loans that
had been previously trade.
Mr. MONCK said, that the mortgagee could never expect in
sly case to borrow money at 3 per cent. when the Government were
coring room Ile (Mr. Monck) would rather lend his money to the
liovernment at 3 per cent. than to an individual at • higher rate.'
Ile hoped the Learned Sergeant would press the question for an
,ri day.
Sir. PHILLIPS said, it' the borrower in no case should pay
more than 3 per cent., in no case ought the lender to receive more
Lhan that auto.

31i.T.TILSON repotted his objections to the Bill.
.11r. IJAVENPORT hoped that the Ministers would repeal the
vamp dude* on mt r.pges, which, as noon as tit's Bill came into
operation, would be 'hulled like cards from one hand to anuthtr.

Sir JOHN WHOTTESI.I:I( said, he should move as an
Amendment, that instead of the ht January, 11125, the blank
`bold(' be filled up with the Ist January, 1112 d. He was anxious
for this, in order that before the Bill came into operation, time
ought be given to the limit to retrace their steps, if it were deem.
tl as he thought it would be deemed, necessary.
• Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. %t'hilat we were ex-
"ded from the gallery, • division took place, on the motion
t4l the (:hairmso do leave the Chair, and report progress. The
numbers were . .

For the 3lotion 67—Against in 61-31ajority 4.
We Pm
that Sir John Wrottesl oathen withdrew his
4ww,filnient, and that the Committee divided the original quee-
n", when there appeard,
Ayes 60—Noes 59.—Majority 1.
The Committee, we were informed, divided a second time upon
Illeitim. that the Chairman report progress, sad ask leave to stt
'Pin. The numbers were—
Noes 6.5—.1ye1 61..-31ajority 4.

The. Committee divided a third time, on the motion for re-
Totting progress, when the numbers appeared—Ayes, 72
Noes, :41-3lajority, 13.
The House then resumed ; and on our re.admintion to the
gallery we found the Ilo.nie discusUng a point of ceder relative to
the proceedings; which having been adjusted,
The NIA I It3IAN reported progress, and asked leave to sit
again on Tuesday next.
Alr. LITTLETON then moved, as an amendment, that the
Committee sit again this day six months.
The Howie divided, and the numbers were.—
Fur the original motion - 63
Far the amendment - . . 67
3lajurity for the amendment - - —4
The Bill was therefore Inst.
SUUAR BOUNTIES.

....
The House then resolved itself into a Committee on the suer
batmtim The motion for their annual continuance, atter a ter
observations from Mr. BRIGHT and the CHANCELLOR of
the kat 11EQUER, was agreed to.
Rl'3l DUTIES.
The Speaker left the Chair, and the House resolved itself, on
the motion of the l'itAncet.i.oa of the EXCIILQUER, into a
'omenittre on the Rum Duties.

Mr. HUME said, lie 1;;; much disposed to move an amend-
ment on that resolution—that the duty on turn should be reduced
in Scotland to that which was levied on spirits.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that
the Honourable Member for Aberdeen was in error with respect to
Scotland ; this resolution applied only to Ireland.
Mr. F. LEAV IS called the attention of the House to the incon-
venient infraction which would arise Irom breaking in upon the ori.
ginal contract, which admitted colonel duties to Ireland at the
same time that they were admitted to England.
Mr. BRIGHT nsovid that Mr. Brogden should report progress.
31r. ll 1.:31E objected to the proposition.
Mr. BRIGHT withdrew his motion.
be Resolution, after a few words from Mr. GORDON, was
signed to.
The CHAIRMAN reported theßesoludons to the House, and they
were ordered to be taken into consideration to-inorrow.
QCALIEII'.ITION OF .11'R1ES'
The House, on the motion of the CHANCELWR of the EX-
CHEQUER, went into Committee on the Quiditication of Junes'
Bill.

Mr. Bft(X/DEN reported the Bill with its amendments to the
House, and it was ordered w be taken into consideration on Tues-
day next. -

BEER DUTIES' BILL.

The Report of this Rill was lin7iiiti;tiiPon the motion of the
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, and ordered to be
printed.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half-pain One &Clock.

NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR TIIIS DAY.
Mr. Estcourt—Bill to Alter and Amend the Laws relating to
Rogues and Vagabonds.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
Marriage Act AmenMrent Bill—Second Reeding.
Exchequer Court Fees Investment Bill—Second Reading.
Tithe Composition (Ireland) Bill—Second Reading.
Clergy Residence (Ireland) Bill--Furdie: Considered(
Report.
Building of Churches Acts—Committee.
Bankrupt Laws Amasdnient Bill—Counittee.
supply—Report.

PARLIAMENTARY PAPER.

AL.

An Account of the Number of Persona sent out of the Kingdom
under the Alien Act, from the Ist of January, 1811 i, to the Ist of
January, 1894; specifying the Names of the Persons, the Ports
at which they were embarked, and the Countries to which they
%etc sent.
18111. None.
Ibl7. The Count de las Casa' and Emanuel de las Casa', hi,
son, at Dover, for Ostend.
1818. Frederick Baron d'Eben and Gaspard Baron de Gourpuds
at Harwich, tor Cuxhaven ; llerr,ard Heyman, Colette Heyman,
31. Le Page, and Catherine :sablon at Gravesend, for Haniburgh.
1819. Louis David Chignard, 4uillaume Grail; Adele Graff,
and 31adame 31ontholon, at Gravesend, for Ostend.
1820. None.
1821. Angelo entilini, at Gravesend, for Holland ; Carl Sehroe.
der, at Dover, t,,r Calais: Juliet Boullinot, and Anthony Buona.
vista, at Gravesend, for Holland.
11522. None.
1823. Count Vito Betters de Wodopich, at Gravesend, for
Obtnid.