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sad onjnetifiable than to say such was the intention or the object of I
the Aesocatton. This Bill, when it received their lordship.'
sene-
tics, may put a period to the Catholic Assot tenon ; bat was any
see prepared teeny it would have cheerio' of putting an end to the
AMOR of feeling and sertimert which at pteseet pervaded the
bosoms of all Catholics on the subject of their tights and
• et, tujustice of excluding them from a participation in the privileges
of du Coestuudon ? Ile might bc told cf the Cerrespondmg So-
cieties, and bear that they had been put down by a lidl similar
ka the preseet ; but those were small, and with respect to the
feeling of the country, he believed isolated bodies ; so that it could
nee be ioir to argue the edicts of a like enactment upon a larger
body, and one which possessed the cetslidence of the population
otliekind. Ile had little doubt of the submission of the Catholic
Association to the intended law, be: what he did dread was, that
the Catholics of Ireland should continue to ask, and Parliament to
tit.aae, what was just. necessary. and politic, to be granted. It had
teen,stated that the condition of Ireland was improved, and he was
moat willing to admit it. and was convinced that the higher the
Roman Catholic was raised in the scale of society, the meliors-
ton of the country would advance Ma proportionate degree. With-
cut improving the situation of the Roman Catholic, and admitting
kim to the equal participation of civil rights, every other measure
for the melioration of the counter would be inefficient there
would be gall at the bottom of the cup which would turn all to
poison. Every measure adopted while disqualifying laws existed
would produce mischief. There were two things, either of whirl]
would produce the most beneficial edict is Ireland. lie alluded to
the arrangement of a provision for the Roman Catholic Clergy,
toil to an alteration in the present system of freeholds, neither of
which could be proposed or carried into effect while the disqualifi-
cations remained in force against the Roman Catholic population of
Ireland. Ile hoped the Association would submit with a good
grace to the decision of Parliament. but he also trusted their Lord-
ships would beware how they told six millions of people, possess-
ing rest poser and influence in the country, to despait tit the as
id their just rights.
Load CALTHORPE thinking the vote he bad given en the
seemd reading of the Bull might be perhaps open to mistake or
etisapprehenstoo, be was desirous of stating his reasons for that
• vote. He wee free to admit his disapprobation of some of the mea-
sures and much of the language of the Roman Catholic Alumni-
tion ; but viewing the question before their Lonishipe as a great
and importatt measure, calling for the exercise of reason, justice,
and equity, he did think that other matters than the mere con-
duct of that Association were to be dente the subject of considers-
taws Coder Witt impression it waseshat he put the questioo, whether
their Loelfshilis tbeneselves were not disqualified from passing this
by their own conduct towards the Roman Catholics ? Much as
• he lamented the proceedings of the Association, he lamented still
more the former votes of that House in relation to the Catholics.
Yet was he far from saying, if a case of great danger arose, how-
ever blameable the conduct of their Lordships might have been,
• that the pressing danger of their situation should not overbalance
• every other reason, and justify Parliament in the adoption of coer-
cive measures. Such a case of Imminent danger, and a proper
confidence in the efficacy of ,the proposed remedy, would induce
Lim •to vote its adoption. But was that the case at present?
Ha begged to say he could neither see the danger nor an.
reeve of the remedy intended. There was far less danger in
the Catholic Association than in Parliament continuing to act in the
sante spirit which had given no to the Association. lie agreed
' with his Noble Friend (Lhrd Ellenborough> in his opinion that the
emednuatice of the Association would be mincipally injuricus to its
own Muse. As it at present existed, it held out no appearances of
danger : and it was only against the dangerous form it might as-
some that their lordships had been invited to legislate. As the
opponents of Catholic claims persisted in describing the Catholic
religion rather as what it was, than what it is ; so the supporters of
this treasure prefer looking to what the Association may by possi-
bility become, than to its present actual state. Dismissing then
the sea of any great and pressing danger to be apprehended from
the proceedings of the Association, and disapproving of the pro-
posed remedy, he could not concur in the necessity of the present
oose.ure. He was the more disposel to look upon this measure
with I:occulter dissatiefaction, because it kept wholly out of view the
only efficient means of satisfying his itlajmty's Roman Catholic
subjects, erne substituted, for the healing and conciliating means
which should be adopted, a mode of treatment vexatious, galling,
and utterly irreconcileable with the best interests of the empire. It
was not his wish to be understood by his vote to justify all the pro.
• ceeilings of the Catholic Association, however strong might be his
• feeling of the injustice the Roman Catholics had suffered. He en.
tertained no partiality for the Roman Catholic religion as a system
of frith; but it appeared to him that the arguments made use of
by the opponents tri the Catholic claims were rather grounded on
what the Catholic religion was known to have been in a corrupt and
lomat age than upon its present state. It was not his intention
to attempt a defence of the tenets or tendency of that religion, but,
or the contrary, lie should feel the utmost jealousy of Roman
• Catholic prients, who might be interested in the propagating of
that religion, having seats in either House of Parliament ; but
with regard to the Laity, he did not think their religious opinions
would affect, or should be permitted to disqualify them in the en-
jayment of political rights- On the contrary, if they were admitted
to their political privilege., and empowered to bold seats in Parlia-
ment,such concessions would &fiord the best antidote to the mis-
chievous nature of their tenets. He gave the fullest credit to the
n•otires that actuated Noble Lords in their opposition to the Roman
leethOlic claims; and he could declare, that lecture his own mind was
et ode up on the subject, his great respect toe the characters of
these individuals made him exaotuto,into the grounds of their op. •
pundits with more of circumspection and mistrust than he would
otherwise have entertained. His respect for the motives and chs-
rActers of those individuals remained unaltered, but every year di-
minished his respect for their arguments. The first and principal
argument used ageism. the Catholics was one, that from its nature
must be peculiarly offensive to them. No matter how respectable
a Catholic is acknowledged to be—however scrupulous in motives
or hocourable in feelings, he is asserted to be under such a spell
of superstitious feeling, and so implicitly obedient to his church,
that when a question ernes in which the interests of that church are
at stake, no reliance is to be placed in his integrity. What would
be the feelings of Noble Lords were such looseness of principle to be
imputed to them ? As a member of the Church of England, one
silo truly reverenced the purity of its doctrines, and counted it
among his highest earthly privileges to belong to it, he must de-
precate the adoption of arguments of such a character. For if there
was any thing in that Church which gave it a superiority over other
Churches, it consisted in the circumstance of its having discarded
traditional evidence, and substituted facts, sense and Scripture for
the uncertain errors which had made Popery dangerous and in-
jurious. And he did think the opposers of the Catholic claims had,
in the course they adopted, made use of an argument essentially
Popish in its nature, when they appealed from facts to loose
reasoniaga, and looked rather to the past than the present
Hate of the Roman Catholic Church. There existed another
consideration to induce him to believe the Roman Catholics
had sustained peculiar annoyance, and therefore, though it
was not his intention to justify the sets or language of the
eessociation, yet it afforded a reason why Parliament should
.ot :sit them with peculiar severity. It appeared as if every
liberal measure adopted by his Majesty's Oovernment—the
stemma cf cnnemercial restrictions—the new system of financial pro-
ceedings—ard the recognition of the independence of some of the
Soot` American States—all these measures, which had been re.
rinsed with approbation by the nation at large, only tended to ca et
a darker shade on the proceedings of the Cabinet towards the Ro-
man Catholic population of Ireland. It was a strange and anoma-
iens ptcceeding to see Government conferring favours with one
heed, while with the other they originated such a measure as the
present. It would be in the recollection of their Lordships that
teat House had been more than once instrumental in intercepting
measures of grace and justice to the Catholics, while in their pro.
owes from the other House of Parliament to the Throne. In the
CASE Of the English Catholics, neither the representations of their
loyalty nor their patriotism had secured success for the measure in-
tended for their relief in that Ileuec, but when conduct of a con-
Herr nature was alleged against the Irish Catholics their Lordships
' felt no relumar cc in visiting with a penal enactment the absence,
real or supposed, of that merit which in the former instat.ce they
Lad thought fit to reward. This If Mae, which should be the
organ and eaemple of justice, had nevertheless shown itself impo.
Hot to reward merit, and eager to inflict punishment where the
conduct to be condemned had originated in the proceedings of Par.
itself. If this were to be done, and the Howe would ex-
hibit itself in tLat attitude to the country, he could not avoid ex-
pressing his regret at its having recourse to a measure so oppressive
to a portion of their fellow-countrymen, who had already received
treatment the most injurious at their bands.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said,.he would never consent to
the pasting of the pretest Manure upon the grounds and reasons •
imputed to him by the Noble Lord who had spoken last. If the
House Ltd done wrong in any former proceeding, let them set
themselves to correct their error without any reference to the pre-
sent measure. He was satisfied such would be the conduct of their
Lordeems, if it appeared tieeessae_y ; but he could not conceive
how it wee possible for any Noble Lord to lay his hand upon his
heart sod say he would pass that Bill because the House had
hitherto been in the wrong, and it was necessary to maintain it by
a continuation of the sante conduct. For himself, he wished to
repel the allegation in the strongest terms; and as tits vote on that
lisle was entirely unconnected with his past conduct, so he did not
desite to have it construed into any pledge of what his future
eounsc would be towards the Roman Catholics. He had arrived at
the period of his life when he might shortly expect to tie called to
AM account of his actions--end he could not, conscientiously say
that AC that subject, as well as on every other, he had done what lie
had thought it his duty to do—he would still continue to act in the
same manner—he Would do what he thought it his duty to do—
but whatever he might see it right to do in future with relation to
the Catholic Question, he wished it to be distinctly understood that
his conduct would not be in the slightest degree influenced by bis
ereile upon the present measure. He had, as wax known to their
Leedsbipe, hitherto restricted the concession of what were called the
Catholic Claims—he had done so on conviction—and in the last
thirty years he had seen no reason to alter his opinion—but he was
still open to conviction. .nd if the arguments brought forward were
convincing; he would yield to them. However, he put thst en-
tirely out of the present question. it was on the ground of the
dsagerous conduct of the Catholic Association and its pernici-
Gee tendeuey, that he consented to the third reading of the Bill,
and on those grounds alone. lie would not lesve their Lordships'
House with such an imputation resting upon his motives, without
giving it his most decided reirinstliction.
Lont DUDLEY and WARD felt considerable reluctance in
voting for a ITICANUM calculated to restrain, in sonic degree, the or-
teary liberties of the subject, particularly when it was con_
&jeered that this measure was applicable to a body whose conduct
was accounted for, if not excused, by the hardship and difficulty
of thew situati n It was foe their Loreisl ips m ronnider what would
b. thde own conduct if es ciuded frosu advantaides. constituting the

common ;shimmy of their corntrymen—exclutleti, not foe crimes
proved or suspected, but because they persisted in following the
religion of their forefather+, and because their forefathers wore
unable to see the great light which, slier a thousand years of dark-
nen, had illuminated the religious world *boat three hundred
years ago. If their Lordship► thought such disappointments
would not beget irritation—if they could themselves, under similar
circumstances. kits the rod, and bow to the enforcement of
what mast be considered as a harsh and severe measure, they •
might vote for the present Bill without reluctance. Yoe his
part. instead of the present measure, he was of opinion
the Catholicclaims should be conceded, and the sooner they were
granted the better for their Lordships and the country. Under
such cireucustences he would be disposed not to scan their defects
too nicely, to Mane many allowances, and overlook every thing
that could be passed by with safety to the State. But there was a
point where indulgence mutt end—that was the point where danger
and defiance began. To such a pitch had the Catholic Association
arrived. They had set up a Goveniment against the Government;
a Parliament against the Parliament ; a revenue against the re-
venue. It was cot his intention to say the Association was re-
bellious in tact, or in its immediate design, but it was insur-
rectionary in its tendency—it possessed all the machir.ery of re-
bellion, interest and maturing for the arrival of the period when
provocation might induce the people to take up arms. Such steps
bad already been taken towards actual resistance, that Government
neglecting to apply the proper degree of precaution would deserve
to be be overpowered, Under such citcumstances it was better
that the violent leaders of the Association should have to hail Par-
liament for doing its duty, than despise it for neglecting it. The
constitutional right of mandating was not applicable to a society
formed for undefined purposes, and to brave the Government itself.
Such an As,ociation could not be put on the same footing with
societies formed for ordinare, political, or religious, purposes, at
with the view of tendering mistaken but well meant assistance to the
Government of the country. Asa friend to Catholic emancipation he
wished to lend his aid to the extinction of a society which he thought
decidedly hostile to the attainment of that object. There were two
ways by which the Catholics might expect to obtain their wishes—
either by force or persuasion : If they meant force, he did not think
any Noble Lord could be prepared to say their request po urged
should be complied with; if, on the contrary. they Intended per-
suasion, the sooner the Association was put down ani its memory
destroyed the banes. It was his desire that the Roman Catholics
should be admitted to the enjoyment of seats in Parliament, and
a fair participation of the (laces of the State—but failing abet, he
did not wish them to be enabled to establith a Parliament and
Government of their own. The Catholics had already received
the assistance of his voice ; they should still receive it, but he
could not endure that they should constitute thernselse sole judges
of their own grievances, and adopt measures in defiance of the
principles of the Constitution.
The Earl of RODEN would take the liberty of putting their
Lordships in possession of his reasons for voting for the BUJ before
the House. The Noble ESA ( Lord Liverpool) who had introduced
the Bill to the no:ice of the House stated the situation of Ireland.
and the dangers and difficulties likely to ensue were the Catholic
Association permitted to proceed in its progress. He agreed with
his Noble Friend in his statement, and thought the necessity of the
measure lolly made out by the assumptions and influence of the
Association, which had arrogated to itself the authority of their
Lordships and the other House of Legislature, in levying taxes and
assumirg other functions only belonging to Parliament. He was
aware the Catholic Rent had been represented as a voluntary con-
tribution, but there existed many instances of individuals who
were unwilling, arid who disapproved of the objects of the As.
sociatioo being compelled to contribute to that fund, not in.
deed by open force, but by a no less effective and certain means,
which existed in their dread of incurring the anger of the
Association and the Roman Catholic Priesthood. He was in the
hearing of several Noble Lords who could bear him out in his
assertion, or correct him if be were in error. He called upon the
Noble Viscount (Lord (fort), who seconded the Address, to testify
to the truth of his statement. That Noble Loral also resided In
Ireland, and must know the fever of irritation excited by the Asso-
ciation among both Protestants and Catholics. Every Noble Lord
must mother the manifestos promulgated by the Association, and
which had been placarded on the chapel doors throughout the
country, recommending, it was true, tranquillity and conciliation
to the people, advising them to disconnect themselves from Ribbon.
men and White-boys, but, lest the,advice should be followed, re-
minding them of the hatred they should bear their Protestant
fellow subjects. He thought (however it might be with the
higher orders) that the Catholic peasantry enjoyed as large
a share of liberty and constitutional privileges as the same class
of persons in any other country. He was sure there did not
exist a people more willing to acknowledge, with gratitude, the
privileges and boons conferred by Parliament, if left themselves.
These were facts that might not be very acceptable to Noble
Lords ; but, as a Member of that House, and a well-wisher to liis
country, he considered himself bound to state his honest opinion
on the subject. He did not wish to state the objects of the Asso-
ciation, or judge them by the intemperance of their language,
which might, as had been said, be the result of a natural
Irritation ; but, nevertheless, the effects were the same ou
those who heard them, whatever was its cause. He disagreed
entirely in opinion from a Noble Earl opposite, who had stated,
the Association, if neglected, we •Id fall away of itself. He could
tell the Noble Lord it had been neglected during the space of a
year, and in all that time it had gone on Increasing in power and
in mischief. It was to Ire-hoped this Bill would effectually put
an end to all associations in Ireland, whether of Protestants or
Catholics—Orange and Green—lt was not his wish to couple those
two kinds of associations together, because he thought them very
different • tut the time for their utility had gone by, and he
wishedtttl societies and annual processions likely to generate or
continue irritation to be put a stop to. He thought the present
Bill would have that effect on the Orange Societies—he hoped it
would on the Catholic. The Noble Lord concluded with a warm
eulogium on the Catholic Peerage of Ireland.
The Earl of DARNLEY said he must differ with the Noble
Earl (Roden) when he expressed his'opinion of the contentment of
the Irish peasantry. He was satisfied that from Lord Fingall
down to the lowest pelmet, all felt the degradation of the situation
in which they were placed by an exclusion from Civil privileges.
The Noble Lord had also indulged in a vituperation of the
Catholic Association ; and it was not his intention to dery that
the Association, constituted as it was, would, If extended and
persisted in. be wholly unattended with danger; but he was per-
suaded the House possessed a better means of putting an end to all
such Associations than that afforded by a penal enactment. He
thought this sufliciently proved by reference to an event which
bad taken place since the introduction of the present measure to
their Lordships' House. He alluded to the vote of the Commons
on the Catholic Bill. He was assured the Roman Catholics al-
ready
felt the prospect held out to them by that vote, and enter-
tained no intention of resisting the proposed enactment, but, on the
contrary, a desire to prevent the wishes of Parliament; and he
thought the Association would prove this by dissolving itself.
He hoped the House would give every fair and just consi-
deration to another Bill, which would come before them
ere long, and confer their favours with frankness, sure of
having them received with gratitude by the Irish Catholics. He
implored their Lordships—he implored the Noble Lord on the
Woolsack—he implored that venerable Bench which had so often
defeated the measure of Catholic relief—to pause and consider the
effects of constant disappointment upon the minds of the Catholics.
He trusted that Bench, and among them the Lecrned Prelate
(the Bishop of Exeter) ,wbo had presented an And-Catholic
petition that night to the House, would not contiuue to refuse
concession because of the suLposed dangers drawn from the
state of the Roman Catholic Church more than a century ago.
He trusted they would weigh well the danger of disappoint.
ing nearly one-third of his Majesty's subjects in the pursuit
of rights grounded upon the inalienable and irresistible prin.
ciples of justice. He would earnestly intreat their Lordships
to reflect on the consequences of their continued refusal.
If the Administration could not agree upon this subject, it was
perfectly practicable to find a Cabinet that would. The sentiments
of the people of England were not, as had been stated, hostile to
the concession of Catholic Claims ; and the best proof of that was
to be found in the absence of all petitions against them, except
from a few of the Clergy, and in obscure parishes. Whatever
measures of conciliation or melioration could be devised short of a
perfect equalisation of civil rights to every class of his Majesty's sub-
jects would be all thrown away upon Ireland: without that, the Ro-
man Catholics never will, and never ought to be satisfied. This ques-
tion most be set at rest by their Lordships in some way or other ; for a
year or two, with die as'sistanceof garrisons, and in a time of prospe-
rity and peace, they might successfully persist in their present course;
bat in event of a war, p,ittl ip times of difficulty, it would be
impossible to go on governing Ireland as they bad hitherto done. I
In conclusion, the Noble Enid observed, that if their Lordships
passed this Bill, he hoped it would be accompanied by that healing
measure which could alone secure lasting peace to Ireland. If
their Lordships did not consent to that healing measure, he
thought that though distuthances might he temporarily suppressed,
we could never reckon upon permanent peace in Ireland.
The Earl of RODEN begged to explain. in allusion to what had
fallen from the Noble Earl (Darnley). He had not said that the
peasantry of Ireland were well satisfied, as the Noble bort appear-
ed to apprehend ; he had merely stated that, in his opinion. the
peasantry of Ireland enjoyed as much rational liberty as any pea.
santry in the world.
Earl GROSVENOR Stile amidst cries of " Question !" He
would not trouble their Lordships with ninny words, but he wished
diem to pause and consider the question which they were called
upon to decide, especially as the Noble Viscount (Dudley. and
)Yard) had so strongly expressed the alarms which he entertained,
The Noble Viscount talked of the amount of the Catholic net as
if it was an immense mum . • he seemed to compare it with the Bri.
tish Exchequer. Now what was the entire amount of the Catholic
Rent ? only 10,0001., whilst the income of this country was esti.
mated at about sixty millions a-year. He wished their Lordships
to pause before they passed this Bill, which lie feared would be
fatal to the repose of this country and of Ireland, unless it passed
accompanied by the measure to which his Noble Friend (Ds:7;1121
adverted. They should consider, he thought., before they
this Bill, without hearing one word in defence from the much-ma-
ligned Catholics of Ireland—without hearing anything to clear those
difficulties which had been thrown in their way by minepresenta-
tiens—misrepreeentations to which the Noble Earl at the head
his Majesty's Government was subject, as was evident from the
anecdote he had heard of the person having been distrained for not
contributing to the Catholic Rent. On this point confessedly the
Noble Earl had been misinformed. This must convince their
Lordship's how much they were taking upon themselves when they
passed this Bill without any inquiry. They should remember, too,
that they were not fully in possession of the sentiments of the No.
ble Lord who was at the head of the Irish Government. If they
proceeded to decide without the coupling this measure with an equi-
valent—without attaching to it some measure of conciliation—if