The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1819-12-07 00:00:00

MA LT DUTY.

Mr. J. P. GRANT moved for an ammo! of the duly ow the
stuck of malt un hsoul, payable under the Act of lest Samba,
and the dates nluu the several payments became
Agreed to.
IRISH LUNATICS.
_

Mr. VrWWY FITZOFRAI.D moved for leave to bring ill
Bill to amend the Art of the blth of the King, to provide an
asylum fur the lunatic poor in Ireland.
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
_ _ _

Mr. LLMBTON rose to give notice, that after the
Chrisinas retro' he intruded to call the attention
01 the Hoare to the state of the representation of
the people io Parliament. The Bill which he in-
tended to Ming in. was, first, fur the repeal of the
Septennial Act—the establishment of a Trie ttttt al
Parliament—the extrusion of the elective franchise
to copylioldsis and householders paying direct
tsars—and the suppressiou of rotten boroughs.
The. Hon. Member said, that such a measure was
culled for by the peculiar situation of the c ry ;
it was essential to the interests of the great
of the people, particularly the middle and the
lower classes. That great portion of the people
looked for Reform as necessary fur their salvation,
and he was convinced that this measure was the
surest, as it was the oiliest mode of conciliation—it
would go further than all others in restoring peace
and confidence, nod in alibiing the present stunt.
lion of the country, a situation which no mar could
contemplate without deep alarm.
SEDITIOUS MEETINGS BILL

Lord CASTLEkEAGII bald, that befo.lCibr How
writ into • Committee uu this Bill. he had to state
sonic neentiel alterations in the Bill itself, which
might vary the ergewneiiii intended to be urged
spinet it. The first alteration in the Bill was. as
it might hare affected inretiop of person; within
doom, as the real object of the Bill was to prevent
the ramemblies of die people in large and tona.
miry numbers-1w saw 110 difficulty its tasking al.

terations for the benefit of meetings within door.,
in order to *hew that the Bill was not
num":
ed to prevent the fair latitude of discussion. Pe
intended, therefore, to alter the Bill so as to permit
meetings in rooms—but to limit the number to 309.
He next intended to withdrew the clause whirl, made persons guilty for au:11111'; thretiogs, of
misdemeanor. It struck him that ii would be bet,
ter to prevent an assemblage of improper persons
tl hilearnefmoiriee," whichan is tohediiinietride rieetldi to p.r rohliseiota'ileeto,goorvilaitsicoctttri.:
make all the inhabitants of the parishes, who should
attend the meetings, special constables, whoseduiy
would be to prevent persona not legally stitinirisrd
from attending their meettngs. It wa
ed to the Bill, that persons having property io 'we
parish, thotigh living in another, wing peeeehtei
from unending the turrtmg ..f that parish ' n
their property lay. He therefor? intended to intr.:.
duce a clause that frreltultiers, possessing freehold:
of a certain amount tit value, though tint
tants of that parish, should be allowed to attend
such parish meeting. There were two ~they
portinit questions :—one as tit the lueslitv i,f tl.e
measures—the other as to their euration. With
respect to locality, he thought that if the Bill seas
not of a general nature, it would barter deserve the
name of a Bill for the ;noting itioet of sediikm, th,„
for its suppression ; it would he holding nut 4
temptation to the people—their itinerant ttrioug
would hod little difficulty in transferring their
meetings Irvin one county to the other—hum these
counties which have been disturbed and annoyed by
their iiiterference, to the more peaceable disttict..
He was therefore convinced that Government coo-
suited the tranquillity and the best interests of the
loyal and peaceable of all parts :if the kingdom, by
leaving the Bill as it stood. With respect is the
duration of she Bill, lie gave the matter the greatest
consideration, and the more he reflects.' oi, it, the
inure he was convinced that it would really promote
the best interests of the people thethrelvet., as well
as protect the constitution, that the law should be
of a permanent nature. • The her was brought for-
ward to prevent meetings of a tumultaary and me-
nacing character. But as there was a very strong
feeling of disapprobation manifested against its per-
manent duration, lie would bow to that ferlitig—
f Hear. /sear)--and give at least time for more coo-
sideration and experience. That excellent Bill,
the Grenville Act, relative to disputed electiot.s,
was passed in the first instance for a period of seven
years ; time and experience !moved its wisd9n,
and it was wade the settled law of the land. Ctrs
der the view he had stilted—under the setitimews
of duty--agatint the dictates of judgment—he had
uo liesitatiou its agreeing tow limitation of the Burn.
lion of the Dill. The Right Hon. Grntleinan
opposite intended, he undersmail, to make a propo.
Minna on this subject. He bliotild have no Ite.itAttuts
its agreeing to it if it only went to the extent whiclt
lie should mention. The period he would mentirti
would he five years. lle 'meld agree to this—hut
he certainly would, 'hook' it be necessary, take it e
sense of the House on the proposition against any
duration of the law for a shorter peri d than fire
years—as also spinet making the measure 1041..1.
On the motion for the House to revolve itself into
Committee being pot—
Colonel BEAUMONT rose, bnt spoke 111 so low
tone of voice as not to be heard with distioctners in
the gallery. We widen:toot' the Hon. Get:denten
to oppose the duration of the Bill for five years.
He submitted to the House that it would be much
more constitutional, and would discover in the
House a greater respect far the ancient liberties of
the people, if the Bill should be limited to one
year, and six weeks after the meeting of Pai Lament ;
and if it were then found necessary, it miglit he
easily revived.
The SPEAKER observed, that the regular time
for the observations of the Hon. Member would be
ain Cmciamudtitiltiottreye,inoartroaeci
timmoivfoi
rtogm, heou think
ia.to the
Committee. The proper time for moving the Inun-
datory instruction would be, when the question
,
should be put that the Speaker do leave the Chair.
Mr. Tundsir said, he understood from the
Noble Lord that lie would not oppose au alteration
in the Bill limiting the duration of it to five yew...
The Hon. Gentleman (Colonel Beaumont). had
an alteration to propose, and it rested withlnin to
begin. He thought it *cub' 'seat mark their sense
of the importance of the measure, not to send the
Bill to a Committee in the usual formel way, but
that direct instructions should be given by the
Home.

Lord CASTLEILIAGII arid a few so-ds in expla-
nation.

Mr. CURWRIt said. it Wls flow clear to the
House, that the Noble Lord found the Bill itself
so fsuliy that he propri.rel very material alterations
in it. fle hoped the Noble Lord would proceed is.
the same way, and he would still make alit-rations
even more important. lie did lint think the mra-
su►e was called for by the state of the public mind ;
he did not think the po:zer or the ii.tluence of those
who called themselves the leaders of the Radical
Reformers, was ■t all of the nature Ord had been
represented ; he acknowledged, however, that it ve
both important ■od deeirable that those per o a
should he put down ; they should not exist In a
well-regulated government ; lie avoid gladly Is sit
his support to measures for their suppression.

The Bill before them would not effect that ()Nevi—
n would not put down the radicals—it would not
accomplish the ohjr.cts it had in view. He wror con-
vinced that of the Noble Lord load expreasrd in that
House a favourable option of reform, the radical
leaders, who were ot,ject•, he said, of einnennst and
abhorrence, would lest st affected and divtte•red
at that declaration. The Noble Lord had admit►ed
that the great body of the people were round in
their principles ; wiry then, he would ask, should he
innovate ins the rights of the whole people—why
should he introduce a measure which goes to im-
pair the Constitrit JJJJJ This, he ft •red, was but the
beginning of a system which might be carried far-
titer, to the injury and misfortune of the country.
Why. he would ask, did not the Noble Lord
apply those measures, which, under alarming
circrirostairces, were found effective in other parts of
the empire ? In Ireland the Insurrection Act gave
power to the Magistrates to prevent all meetings ;
he thought such as. Act preferable to the present
measure. 'lke Noble Lord had stated, on a for-
ester occasion, that lie was anxious to conciliate the
country. If be were sincere, be hod mow the oppor-
Nulty, but that object was to be seemed by

r

Gres far different from those which Ministers put- i
ord Ile could not but complain of an attempt
made by Gentlemen front the Treasury Bench
to torplieste that (the Opposition) side of the
Houie oith the Radicals. Such conduct he
considered extremely ustparliametatury and un-
fair. He could not but disapprove of the con-
duct of the Honourable Member fur Liverpool
(Mr. Canning), not now in his place. He had
made exlggerated statements of the public situa-
tion. which lie (Mr. Curwen) could not agree to.
As to the conduct of the Magistrates of M ruches-
ter, lie never did believe they were guilty of the
~rear cruelty imputed to them ; but lie did believe
thee weir guilty of great rashness and indiscretion.
Th., Noble Lord had spoken the other niht of the
jealousy and discontent of the disotiectedg, and of
the leaders of the reformers ; but did he think that
jealousy and discontent were cotitined to these ?
lle could assure the Noble Lord, that a great
proportion of the people—of the loyal and respecta-
ble
people, were extremely jealous of the measures
of ministers—that they doubt very much of the
Noble Lord's venerstion for the Constitution, or
re.'srd fur the liberties of the people. The Noble
Cord could not doubt but that this was the real
Irrliw; of the country. Those measures have sunk
deep lit the public heart. Many late measures,
indeed, disgusted the country ; particularly. he
would say, the Act of Indemnity which passed that
floute—an Act which was opposed to the principles
of justice—which deprived individuals of redress,
whore liberties and whose fortunes were invaded,
sail oho were deprived of all means of vindicating
their innocence, if they were innocent. He dis-
liked, he said, the proiciple of the Bill ; yet were
ii limited to one year lie would support it.—
fle would wish fur a measure more intelligible—
he !would prefer a Bill similar to the Irish Insurrec-
tion Act, which would give power to the Magi-
slimes to prevent all meetings, if they thought tie.
cessary. He would give them that power for a li-
mited time; because no one who knew the Ma-
gistrates of this country would suppose that
they would exercise that power unjustly. He
repeated that the danger of Government was not
most to be appretteuded trouts visionary men—
there was a winger of greater magottude. The
best informed, time most respectable, did think that
there was a power operating on that House, which
did slot make it the most provident guardian) of the
public puree. They desired reform—it was ex-
pected speedily—and if the House did not grant
it, he feared it would he reformed in • manner
which no rational or moderate man would wish. He
should lament to see any reform which would go to
overture the Constitution. Distress was one of the
ga-tit sources of the public discontent—distress
created by taxation. This distress, no Bill, no
measure of coercion, would mitigate. It was iin.
possible to continue their manufactures to the tx-
boit that they had been carried on. They should
look to other sources of prosperity, besides the
sources of foreign markets. When he heard the
assertion of the Noble Lord, with respect to the
distress of this country, as originating from the
distress of America, he was astonished. He was
iimistied the Noble Lord would not assert what he
dui out think sits true, but it only proved that the
iNuble Lord had not paid that attention to the true
situation of the country which he ought to have
paid when lie made that statement. We had prac-
list' on foreign coutstries an unmixed system of
monopoly, but they would now practise that sys-
tem against us which we have practised against
them. As an evidence of this disposition, he would
mention, that when Government laid a duty on rape
seed, time Dutch imposed a duty on rape cake which
prevented its importation into this country. if the
Noble Lord would look into the real situation of
the country, he would find that her whole resources
did not exceed three huudred millions, whilst her
taxes amounted to sixty millions. In such a state
of tf:ogs, great alterations were necessary—much
of reihrin—much of conciliation and of wisdom to
save her. The 13i11 before the House was evidently
drawn up in a hasty manlier. He would state
one clause of it. A person subject to the tretialties of
the Bill was liable to be brought inimedittely be-
fore the Judges of Asvizts or of Sessions, to be put
town his trial ; lie was entirely to depend upon the
favour of the Justice for an opportunity to produce
his witnesses, and to prepare his defence. He had
no doubt what the feelings of the Judges would be,
times kable as they were for a tender and a pore
regard fur the liberties of the subject ; but he asked
was this rt situation to place persons charged with
an offence against law ? He wet sorry, lie said, that
a sense of duty obliged has to trespass so long on
the rot of the House.
Mr. N'EfET FITZGERALD said he heard with
great sulisfactiou what fell from his Noble Friend
(Lord Castlereagh), concurring as he did in the
principle of the Bill. He was glad to hear of those
alterations which he proposed, because they must
convince the country that the object of the mea-
sures was to prevent tumultuary meetings—not
to invade the rights of the people, but, on the con-
trary, to allow a fair opportunity fur the exercise
uI those rights. He had one alteration to stag-
ge,4l—it was to protect the meetings of the Coo
'iodic. of Ireland, who, to their credit be it men-
tioned, never met but fur the purposes of delibera.
tion—never met to inspire terror; and though com-
posed of the great population of Ireland, yet
steerrmet, in order by a display of their strength'
to ',annulate the Government.—( Hear, hear)—He
would wish that the Bill should extend to give
potter to meet in public buildings as well as in
rooms; the Catholics of Ireland generally met in
their chapels or in court-houses ; if the Bill was
thus extended, it would protect their meetings.
Sir R. WILSON condemned the measures us de-
signs to break down the fences of the law, to intro-
duce dangerous innovations, to establish arbitrary
power, and to deprive the people of their liberties ;
it was intended to stifle their complaints at a
moment when their wrongs were greatly ago
gravated, and when they had but too just
cause for alarm. Throe Bills which the Noble
Lord introduced would have only the effect of
throwing vitriol on the wounds of public feeling.
It was this violence which went on shedding blood,
and adding wrong to wrong. till the original evil
sunk into insigniticance.—(Hear.)—lf the British
Government were, indeed, to be turned into a des-
potism, he did not core how soon a sanguiuory sys-
tem of laws were established ; for be should cot
think a country submitted to such rule worth cling.

inz to—" ad .iecus, ad libcriatem aati
here tenanaus, ant criat dignitate merinos:tor." He
thought th•t the oilier Bills were, if possible, npoe
obnoxious than that under the consideration of the
House. The Bili relating to the search for arms
was directly opposite to the Bill of Rights ; fur that.
the Howie was well aware, recognized the right of
every subject to keep arms for his protection. lint
whet were the provisions of the Bill ? if any per-
son whatever, even a personal enemy,* spy or Ina in-
former, lodged information before a Magistrate,
that such an individual had arms for dangerous pur-
poses, it conferred the power of breakmg into his
house, which was his castle. at any hour by night
or by day. But suppose a constable were to come
end attempt to force an entrance into • man's house
at an unseasonable hour of the night, and the owner

not knowing that he was authorized in the attempt,
sod thisiking that his house was his castle, should
offer resistance and shoot him. what situation would

that individual then be in by the laws of his country ?
He could not be banged. for according to them he
had not committed murder; but under this strange

innovation on them, lie would be shot for a rebel !
The Bill before the House was not an English pro-

ceeding ; it might have done when AVilliam the
Conqueror came into England, or for William 111.
when he was in Ireland. Ent let the Hauge

mark what wis done in Eligland—to 'hew how well
an English House of Commons did its duty towards
England ; he should read In extract from an Act of
that Parliament for disarming Papists. It provided
that " any two or more Justices of the Peace may
from time to time, by warrant under their hand
and seal, authorise and empower any person or
persons, in the daytime, with the assistance of a
constable. to enter houses and search for arms."
But they, in the nineteenth century, would allow
the subject's house to be forced open by night or
by day.—( Hear, hear.)—But it had been stated
in another place, that necessity called for the men-
sure. Was not this the plea that was invariably
made ? %Vas it not that which Richard the Third
made when he murdered Hastings ? With re-
' gard to the Bill for restricting the liberty of
the press, the Noble Lord had told them as
matter of grace that he did not intend to oho.
loth the trial by jury nor establish a censorship,
and that there was no attempt at innovation. But
it became the House to observe the progress of in-
novation formerly, when it was proposed to raise
the stamp on newspapers to its present rate, it was
urged by the supporters of the proposition, that the
additional duty would not prevent the rirli from
reading newspapers, and that the unstamped pub-
lications were still open to the poor; but now the
foundation of even that consolation was to he taken

away. He said, that if they went on in this way.
they would establit•li that liberty of the real which
Karl been dercribed in an old French comedy—

" Provided I say nothing agamst the things that
are, or on polities, religion. or morality. or against
any body, I may publish what 1 please, subject to
the provisions before mentionerl."—(A laugh I—As
for repressing blasphemous publications by coercive
means, he thought it a great error to attempt to re-
move religion from the rock on which it stood, or
to support it by any other means than these—sr-
gument, good-will, benevolence, and charity.-
-(Hear, hear.)—The gallant General then, after
comp!imenting the clergy of the Established
Church for their general conduct, animadverted,
in pointed terms, on their assisting, in certain cases,
in the execution of unreasonably severe measures
against the people. He said, that the whole series
of the new Bills was a It-11'111 of war alpinist the.
people—and as it was the most hazardous mode of
gettnig rid of the discontents, so it was the moat
expensive. Let not Ministers say as Louis XIV.
did—" After me a deluge ! !!" For lie asserted, that
their plan of government would introduce univer-
sal bankruptcy and ruin, and th ?t when confusion
and mi?ery had overflowed the nation, they should
not be able to find au ark to save themselves.—
Even if the Noble Lord carried his measures with
triumphant majorities, what would the people say ?
that the Noble Lord kid found his majorities great,
in proportion as his measures were unconstitutional.
(Here the gallant General was interrupted by
coughing from the Ministerial Benches./-1-le
should be sorry to abase the patience of the House.
but he felt himself obliged to perform a duty which
had been imposed on him. With regard to the
'scullions, concerning the amount of which the No-
ble Lord had 'yokels so lightly a few nights before,
would not the people now say that it was under
their shelter that lie came down, and ventured to
propose, and succeeded in carrying measures re-
pugnant to the first fundamental rights of the
people ?—(Hear)—measures which. he said. if the
House of Contusions persevered in sanctioning, it
would be guilty of political suicide. Its the pre-
sent crisis, he saw but one course for them to put-
►tir, that from all parties and every side of the
House, Members should unite, and exclaim. " No-
limas leges Anglia inntari."—( Hear. hear.)—
If they observed that principle. they should be
enabled to brave and outlive all perils—they might
" ride in the whirlwind and direct the storm."—
( Cheers.)
Mr. GRENFELL said. that no one heard his Hon.
and Gallant Friend deliver his sentiments with
greater pleasure than he did on all but political
subjects.—(.4 laugh.!—On these, indeed. he dif-
fered from hini in the highest degree; he was as
distant. from Isis way of thinking. as one pole from
the other.—(//air.)—The Hon. and Gallant Gene-
ral had declareti that hi* Majesty's Ministers merit-
ed impeachment for the measures they hod pro-
posed to the House ; lie believed that that pro-
ceeding was not confined to the Ministers of the
Crown ; and if all who thought with theca on the
present occasion were to be involved iii that fate, he
should submit to it himself.—(Cheers.)—The
Gallant General had said that he had nut been
in the habit of using inflammatory language ; but
had he forgotten, if he hail, he was ►ure he had
not, what took place at a meeting of his own con-
stituents in the Borough of Southwark, when he
shoals hands with and gave his fraternal embrace
to Mr. Hunt?—(Cheers assai laughter)—and if the
usual means of knowing what passed at such meet•
ings could be credited, he had given it as his
opinion that " this country was the most degraded
one on the face of the earth." He went ou to say,
that the tune would yet come when the Adasissta
*tertian would repent. However. he did not
mean to follow him through his details of this other
Rills; but with resFect to that one under the ow.

•
sidera; house. the inteuded 'ivied of
operation had been stated by the Noble Lord.
he should take this opportunity of saying. slid he
might not be obliged to sppeal to the indulgence
of the House again, that if it were enacted for a
shorter time than five years, it would its his opinion
be talioly inefficient, that it would keep alive the
hopes of the disa&cted, aid totally fail iu effectu-
ally checking °stir designs.--ICheers.j
Sir It. WILSON, in explai 6666 said, that he had
conceited Mr. Hunt to be greatly wronged. and
that in him the rights of all Englishmen had been
invaded.—(Hour.)—He had given him Isis timid to
strew that he would go hand in hand with him. He
considered that it would have been disgraceful and
shameful to him if he had not done so, but much
more disgraceful if he had taken the hinds of those
who were 'denied with the 'Wood of their country-
meo.—( Hear.)
Mr. V. BLARR spoke in support of the motion.
He thought that the proposed measures would leave
the liberty of the tires, unimpaired, and quoted Mr.
Cobbeit's declaration of a kw days back, as ample
proof of this opinion, that siotwithstanding the new
duty lie 'should not be at all apprehensive about
the diffusion of his writings. Should the inquiry
into the conduct of the Manchester Magistrates
have been prosecuted in that House, and their de-
linquency have beets established. it would of course
be followed up by an Address to the Crown for the
legal prosecution of the delinquents, which would
place the House in a strange dilemma; for the
course adopted by the Crown would be to direct
the Attorney-General to file an ex.ailieio informa-
tion against them ; but they would at once produce
it special plea in bar, the letter of thanks from the
Prince Regent.
Mr. RICARDO was of opinion that sufficient at.
tendon was not generally given to the true Isidore,
the value, and importance of the right, which it was
the object or the Bill before the House to restrain.
—(Hear.)—lt seemed generally to be looked upon
merely as the right to meet for the purpose of pe-
titioning against grievances. Now, was it confined
to that, he should look upon its preservation
much less anxiously than he did. The great im-
portance which he attached to it. was founded
on the opportunity which it afforded to the people
to meet together in large numbers, where they com-
municated their sentiments and spirit, and ani-
mated one another—(Hear, hear)—and present.
ed to Ministers an imposing front to deter them
l'rom pursuing rigorous measures of government,
or pre•sing the enactment of impolitic or cruel
laws.—(Dear.)—The influence of the people in
this view, was something similar to the controlling
power of the House ; for if this House were limited
in its opposition to Administration to the mere
vat-s of its member., it would operate almost as
nothing of a check ; their effectual control was
derived from the right to withhold supplies. and
to stir up by their speeches the people to resist•
atter, in times of great danger.—(Hear, hea►.)—
There might be periods in the history of every
country, when let the Government be never so pru-
dent. just, and mild. causes of public distress
might arise, over which it could exercise no con-
trol ; and derigning and wicked men might take
advantage or that distress, in order to produce mis-
chief; and then it might be reasonably thought,
that the Government did not possess that sort of
check over these people which ought to exist. Bat,
on the other hand. it was absolutely necessary that
the people should pueseas a check over the mea-
sures of the Government; and if they established
any set of men its rule, not subject to such a re.
straint. that Constitution would degenerate into
despotism. But the check to which he (Mr. Ricar-
do) looked was a reform in the Commons House
of Parliament. that it might express the opinions
of the whole body of the people; then would they
have the most perfect check which existed in any
state.—(Hear. hear.)—He had heard those people
called Radical Reformers, frequently spoken of in
the House almost in terms of ridicule and con-
tempt. It was his opinion that among them were
to be found a number of dangerous characters, but
he also thought that they contained very many per-
sons who intended the best to their country. and
had adopted the principle that annual parliaments
and universal suffrage would provide a strong check
to the undue influence of the Administration. He
had the ►ame object with them, but lie thought it
was attainable by something far short of these—
(Hear, hear)—and therefore lie thought it would
he madness of the House to proceed so far—(Hear,
hear)—when a more safe and moderate course to
the saint end was open.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN said. that he should
lie very unwilling in the then exhausted state of the
Howe, to trespass on its attention causelesaly, but
representing. as he slid, so large a portion of the peo-
ple in that House, lie deemed it au indispensable
duty to express his opinions on the present subject.
He concurred completely in the opinion of the
Hon. Member who had just sat down (Mr. Ricardo),
that enough was not thought of the magnitude of
the right affected by the Bill under consideration--
(Hear)—and the House of Commons were now
about to pass laws detrimental to great popular
rights, before the people had time to express their
opinions on them, or petition against them, or even
acquire the degree of knowledge accessary to form a
judgment of their teatlency. He believed that
the Sheriffs of London were now at their doors
with a petition against them from the Corporation.
It was three mouths, it was above three mouths
since the outrages were committed at Manchester;
when the citizens of London addressed the Crown
shortly after, praying that Parliament might be
called together to institute an investigation into the
transactions. they were answered by Ministers that
they were nut sufficiently informed on the subject.
But it was very extraordinary that if Ministers were
its possession of such information as would justify
them in advising the Prince Regent to thauk the
Magistrates for their conduct. they had nut in
the long interval set the people right on the point,
mid saved them the trouble of all the meetings,
and resolutions, and other exoedients to presto
an inquire. But he had yet to learn wherein the
citizens of London had beets wrong, fur looking to
the papers on the table, they left him as much ►n
the dark as he had been before.—(Hear.)—A great
deal head been said on both sides of the House
about the legality or the illegality of the meeting;
bat if that were a question of such doubt and
difficulty that the greatest law authorities in
the House could not agree on its it suiely was

wrong in the M rechester Magistrates to dtsper.e the
meeting on their own authority. But the House
ought to know what communications passed be-
tweru theta mid the Government, and what
instructions hail been given them previous to
the meeting. lie was inclined to believe that
they would not have taken such d *triode re-
spousibility rats themselves without the knowledge
that they would meet with approbation and invite.
tam Ito • high quarter. Oat the oceesioo of the
first meeting in Smithfield. the Lord Mayor COll.
sulteol the Secretary of Slime. and was informed
by him that the proposed meeting was perfectly
legal ; though his Lordship was trot satisfied with-
out further authority, and appealed. as he un-
derstood, to the city lawyers. It seemed to him,
however, that the arrest of Harrison during the
proceedings, was a preconcerted thing. If tiecev-
airy, lie could prove that a great proportion of
.Ws people assembled at that time attended from
Mut i rev of curiosity. The meeting of the 16th Au-
gust had loot, at the time it was broken in upon,
been guilty of any riot or any other act contrary to
law, and therefore lie could not but look upon it as
perfectly legal. But it was objected that it was
dangerous-4e agreed that such meetings were dan-
gerous. impolitic, unwise, nay, be should go further
and say, that they were most peruiriuus. said must
pernicious to the cause of reform, and if his Majes-
ty's Ministers were stomas to put down the cause of
reform they would encourage them. Here theu was
an acknowledged evil ; and how was it to be got rid
of ? By conciliation. Lord Fitswilliom lead set
Noblemen and Gentlemen an example. elect'
would be productive, i: imitated, of the happiest
effects; and he took upon himself to say. that if
people of nook and property went among the people;
they would recover their wandering affections. wean
them away from their prejudices and errors, and
soon destroy all the credit sod influence of itmentot
orators. But how did the Noble Lord mean to
gain over the people ? By increasing their irritation.
That House had been called. he believed by Lord
Somers, the Grimed Inquest of the Nation, and so
called, because its duty was to inquire into the im-
politic sod cruel measures of the Ministers of the
Crown. Gentlemen opposite, indeed, said, that
Ministers were guilty of no oppressive messure—•
that they were a mild. humane set of men. But
the people, for some reason or other. had taken it
into their heads that they had been oppressed—
(Hear, heur)—and were not slow in giving utter-
ance to their impression. The House then sus-
pended the Habeas Corpus Act, and passed Gag-
ging Bills, but the moment these Acts expired,
the people became worse than ever; and for this
reason, it was their duty to look out for some
other means for quieting their clamours, and
he believed the best Mode was. to call upon the
people to make known the causes of their dis-
content, to invite them. with their petitions, to
the bar of the House, to receive them with st-
tention, and • sincere disposition to examine them,
with • view to remove the causes of complaint.—
/Hear.)—Should the Petitioners then mistake the
method of relieving their difficulties, they might be
shewed their error, and. at least, they would have
the consolation of having done their duty.—(Hear.)
—The Hon. Member then animadverted on the
passing of loyal decleratious, which he thought
were only intended to throw discredit on those who
abstained from them. He had had better opportu-
nities of understanding the sentiments and opinions
of the middle and lower classes of society than al-
most any Member of that House—for the last five
and twenty years lie had been in the habit of frequent-
ly attending popular meetings. and he could auntie
the House that individuals of this descriptiou pos-
sessed a degree of information on political subjects
which would astonish Hon. Members. He coo.
destined their plans of radical reform, he thought
them wild and virionary, and he had always thought
so. But there had been isidividualsof distinguished
talent and learning who had been friendly to these
doctrines—be might mention Sir Robert Raymund,
the Chief Justice. There was another individual
with whom he had the happiness to be acquainted,
and who would stand as high as soy one in the esti-
mation of the Honourable Member for Britisher,
whom he saw below him. lie meant the late Mr.
Granville Sharpe, who had avowed these opinions.
He believed it was the sincere conviction of most
of those who held them, that they would be pro-
ductive of good. The great system of administra-
tion for the last twenty-five years was to break
down the middle classes of society, and these were
now disabled from giving employment and wages
to the labouring part of the population. But
would these coersive measures cure the evil ? The
Noble Loid kiiew they would not. It would break
out again like a volcano, and overwhelm every
thing in confusion and ruin. All the discontetot
might be cured at once, by a resolution of the
Houle to address the Crown to dismiss the present
Ministers.—(4 bragh.)—la old times the Consti-
tution of the country used to go through times of
danger, but latterly the fashion was to suspend the
Habeas Corpus. He thought that Mimsten had
taken for the model of their conduct the measure.
of the latter years of Charles the Second and of
James the Second, which led to the Revolution.—
At the Revolution, the Convention saw that all the
troubles mud evils had proceeded from the people
having been incapacitated from expressing their
opinions; and therefore, in the Bill of Rights,
they claimed, demanded, and insisted upon that.
with others, as their undoubted right and privi-
lege. He maintained that this was the boldest
aw.asure ever ventured on by Ministers. before; for
suspending the Habeas Corpus was nothing like
preventing the people from meeting together to
express their sentiments on public altiors.—(Hear.)
Toe right of keeping arms was one of the most
ancient which the subject enjoyed. There was a
strong feeling in the country for rational, moderate
reform; fur that reform which would so alter the
constitution of the House that it would effectually
represent the property and population of the eosin.
try...-. (Cheers.
Mr. THOMAS WILSON thought thot the
canoes of the discoutetit were those over which
• the Ministry or the House could have no Con-
trol. If the loyal meetings had not taken
place, it would have been trumpeted forth that
those of 'an opposite description had eXpressed the,
sense of the ,country. As so honest man. Arad in
Englishmen. he thought that the meassee before
the Muse. limited as it. mu le he in its opersamo to.
lire years, was fur the good of the country.

.

-51 r. D. W. w:tt 01 •.•••
qew measeres would niti!er Augmeiit titan ad.ol era.
popular discontent, a:,rl therefore he should vote
against them altogether. The true remedies i .his
opinion were the diminution, or rath r rqoalr,arinot
of tatatione by lightening the burden *lonia pureed
unequally on the poor, and a change to ihr repre-
sentation of the cpuriory. lie thoutdd it aught oo
be clearly *hewn', that that hart induced the
Grand Jury of Laricsater to throw out the bill*.
was not that they had rehired to hear evideocr,
that they hod uot, for instance, come to the de-
termination of nut receititig the evidence of Der-
by•hire at all. lire view of the question of re-
form was, dud there was not a Member of that
noose who ought uot, at some time or other, hermit
back to a certain portion of the people to whomilie
should be rtapousible and render au account of his
conduct.

Lord Stitcher. in consequence of the pointed
allusion made to him, begged to say a few words
in explanation of the rpereh he made on a former
night. The Hon. Member had spoken as if he
(Lord Stanley) had said, that his oath, •S a Crawl
Juror, threw around lion a sort of protection with
which notliiiig could interfere. He bad said sat,
such thing. What he did say, was, that he would
not, in consequence of that oath, enter into the
merits of the part=cular case, unless called sport
before • Court of Justice, or by the authority of
Parliament. In either case, he should feel himself
justified to disclose what bath occurred, noteish-
standing the power of that oath.—(ffeor, hear.)
With reference to Mr. Heist's petition, it staled
facts as occurring before a Gistid Jury, of which
the petitioner could here in reality kiumn nothing.
Mr. BOOTLE WILERAII4II asked. whether the
Hon. Member (Mr. D. W. H*atar) meant to
state that the Grand Jury refused to receive the
evidence of Derbyshire ?
Mr. D. W. Hies? did not mean to say any
such thing. All lie lead asserted was, that on pub-
lic gronsids it would be desirable to know the rea-
sros which influenced the Grand Jure to ignore
particular bills. They may have ignor'ed them by
adopting • particular rule, and acting upon it so
the reclusion of • certain line of evidence, which,
if admitted, would perhaps have led them to a dif-
ferent result.
Mr. BooTLZ WiLBRAHAII stated, that the
Grand Jury had made no such rule, nor refused
any particular evidence.
Mr. C. H. HUTOHNION, after lamenting the
painful necessity in whien he found himself. of
trespassing upon the attention of the House, after
the speeches that were made by his Ilotiouroble
Friends around him, warmly defended his Hon.
and Gallant Friend (Sir Robert Wilton) from the
attack made upon him by the Honourable Member
for Marlow (Mr. Grenfell.) He was the more
ready to repeat and justify every espretsion made
use of by ins Honourable and Gallint Friend, as
he was so much in the habit of connecting Ins feel-
ings and interests with his own upon every occasion:
—(Hear.)—Before he proceeded further, he begged
to aim his Majesty's Ministers, whether it was their
intention to extrud the provisions of this Bill to
Ireland ?
Mr. C. GRAN : replied, that it was intended to
include Ireland within the operation of the Bill.
Mr. llurcniasos resumed, and svith great ani.
minion recalled the attention of the House to the
speech of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) when lie
introduced this Bill to their conitideration —a Bill
which would be ft-r ever connected with his name.—
(Hear.)--Did nut that Noble Lord, hi his open-
ing speech, contrast the peaceable state of Ireland
with the disturbed condition of England ? Did he
not express his pride amid satisfaction at seeing what
he termed the peaceable and prosperous state of a
country with which he was so nearly connected ?
Why then did the Noble Lord talk of the peaceable
sod tranquil state of Ireland if he meant to visit
that country with the pains and penalties of his
Bill of coercion ? What was the Noble Lord's in-
tention by adopting such a delusive course? Did he
mean to deceive the seventy Irish Members who
voted with hint on the former night, and to induce
them to give their support, under the idea that
though England was to be coerced, Ireland was to
be free ? When the Noble Lord, with his usual
douceur of manner, and apparent modesty, even
though introducing a measure of such • treinend-
ous musequeoce, made this allosion to the state of
Ireland,what was his meaning ? Why the deb lion ?
He (Mr. Hutchinson) appealed to the Irish Mem-
bers to recollect the declaration of the Noble
Lord as to the tranquillity of their country, and to
couple it with what they now heard of the intro.
tion to include Ireland in the operation of this
Bill.-(Hear. hear, and sone coughing front the
Ministerial benches.)—Gentlemen might interrupt
him if they pleased; they may massifrio a readiness
to vote away the liberties of their own c try, but
they must give him leave to defend those or his,
such at least as remained to his cossotry its
her present stmt.—Wear, hear }.--When the
Noble Lord had talked of the prosperity of Le.;
land, he did out White him, though Ire was ready
to admit its peace and tranquillity, roll to assert
its claim for an 'exemption from the operation of
those Bills. Nothing, he must may, could be fume
outrageous than the conduct of the Noble Lord,
who, upon evidence of his own 'hewing, part ab-
surd, part }quoin, grounded the necessity of
measures subsersive of the most essential privileges
of the Constitution, notwithstanding the utility flat
contradictions which tlii. evidence received in
both Houses of Parliament. It seemed the Noble
Lord, reels wills his majorities, did not feel him-
self on quite as safe ground as be at first ima-
gined, when he row crime down, atid in smooth awl
flowing numbers; admitted the bonito 44444 of the
Bill tin fire years ixisteoce. It was to he looped
that before this night' passed sway, a feeling
of a sunder description would prompt the :Ca-
ble Lord. notwithstanding his bold des-Lifetime..
to make the Bill local, instead of general, it. ns
application. Ile begged pardon white he said that
there was something so outrageous and offensive in
die mode pursued by the Noble Lord, that he was
afraid to give vent to the, feelings which it 'tested
in his breast. The Ministers, m bringing forward
these mum before threirmotary.with
colours. Were these the gfories Altat followed the
labours of opwatere of half a .ce'talifrf of adminietrie
tiOnS like the present? Werrtheit the lasts** Stu eh
the people were to reap anertlai tetinissai%leaf 'lvor
unparalleled in its mown, but for which no thanks

V