The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1806-03-27 00:00:00

Mr. OUNDAS (Lterd Melville's son) rose and i
said, he should consider this Motion as prefatory
to an Address to His Majesty, to order Westmin-
ster 1
stet. Hall to be fisted iip fix the purpose of the trial 1
being there holden. He hoped the House would
consider the inconvenience, he might say, at least, of
such a procedure, he migolt perhaps have added. the
injustice and oppression of it. It must of course
also be produaive of great delay ; for it it were
carried on at the liar of the House of Lord:, in case
any question should arise on points of evidence, or
any other matter of law, the Managers would be
ordered to withdraw, which they could speedily do,
and the delay would be trifling ; whereas, if the
trial should be in Westminster Hall, their Lord-
ships, in case of any exceptions being taken, would
have to retire to their own house to determine the
sane, which would be the cause of a very long de-
lay indeed, and prey let the trial very considerably.
It would be a proceeding, harrassing in point of
time, and ruinous in point of expence. He thought
the case of Mr. I last ings, would have been sufficient
ti. make the House pause, before they would think of
adopting such a measure; and he was the more sur-
prised at the present Motion, because the Hon Gent.
who brneght it forward had, nn the outset of the bu-
siness, when he first brought forward his chaigns in
the House, argued strorgly in favour of dispatch.
The last trial for a similar charge seas carried on
at the Bar of the House of Lords, and that was
the case of Lord Macclesfield, which was begun on
the 13th of March, 1723, and judgment pronounced
on the 2lst d ty. In the case of hlr. Hastings, the
Dial began on the I ath of February, 1768, and
ended the 23d of April, 17!ta ; which was univer-
sally allowed to have been vexatious, harrassing,
and oppressive to the highest degree. He begged
the Hon. Gentleman, and the House also, to con-
sider, that the private fortune of the individual, in
the present Case, was by no means large, nor equal
to such an expellee as would necessarily be created
by this node if pricedure. If the Dial can be
condolled in rase House of Lords, so as to answer
all the e^ds of attaining substantial justice, he was
at a loss try account why it miet not as well he
carried on there, as in tVestminster Hall ; and
he hoped the House would be cautious how they
voted for a measure w ich would be attended with
so much mischief to an individual, without doing
any essential set vice to the public. Und.v all these
circumstances, he must the: owe oppose the motion,
though he c,d not know he should persist so far as
to divide the House, u.;less he saw the House was
generally of his ' pinion.
Mr. *IIERNEY said, he would be far from wish-
ing to do any thing which might bear hard on the
feelings of laird Melville, or any of his relatives,
particularly of the Hon. Gentleman who had just
sat down ; and who had, throughout the whole of
this business, conduifted himself in such a manner
AS to gain the respea and esteem of the whole
House. He had, from the commencement, been
uniformly an advocate for the measure of impeach-
ment, and theret..re he must support the present
motion. It was, perhaps, true, t:-at the ends of
substantial justice might be obtained, by the trial
being cariird on in the House of Lords, but it was
impossible the same satisfaelion could be given to
the public mind. He WAS sure the public north'
not be satisfied, unless it was carried on with as
much solemnity and publicity as possiiile, and that
it would be considered as a sort of comptorni•e, it
the Huuse were now to alter their mode of proceed-
ing. The argument of the Hon Gentleman, if at-
tended to, would go the length of totally abandon-
ing, in ftrare, the mode of that in Westminster
Hall. As to the expences, he thought that no
argument against it whatever. Mr. Hastings had
often protested against the expences, as Illigitit)S to
his fortune, and more than it could boar ; but the
House had not listened to complaints, but had per-
sisted in the course they had originally fixed on.—
Here, said Mr. T. is a Peer of the Realm, one who
h4l filled the first offices of the State, accused of
high crimes and misdemeanours ; and who shall
hencefernards b. tried in Westminster Hall, if he
is not? As to delay, lie did lint think it would he
by any means so great as the lion. Gentleman ap-
prehended. It could be only the space of travelling
between the place of trial and the House of Lords.
Under all these circumstances, he should think he
ailed inconsistent with himself, if he did not give his
utmost support to the motion.
Mr. BANKS said, the case of Mr. Hastings was
the strongest that could be adduced against the ar-
guments of the Right Honourable Gentleman who
spoke last ; a trial which rctietled disgrace on that
House and the country, and which had certainly
been attended with an expence truly enormous. He
had always beets one of those who strenuously op-
posed the impeachment, and was desirous of hav-
ing misdemeanours, in all cases, tried by the Courts
of-LW, instead of this mode of proceeding. If it
were necessary to obtain substantial justice, that '
there should be a more extensive scene of adion,
and a mare numerous audience than could be had
at the liar of the House of Lords, he should have
no °Nation to the motion ; but my Lord Maccles-
acid, who was charged witat a similar offence to the
present, who was acsuied and found guilty of em-
bezzling the money of widows and orphans, en-
trusted to his cares was nod at the Bar of the
House of Lords ; and if that Dial were carried on
there, surely this might be the same, with equal
propriety and (goal effeel. The Right Honourable
Gentleman had talked of the public desire to have
full satistaetion from the pubdcity and solemnity of
the proceeding ; but he did not believe there was
any such desire in the public; on the contrary, he
thought they held it its abhorrence, and that the
trial of Mr. Hastings bad brought that mode of pro-
ateding two total discredit. Comparing the twenty-
one days, which Lord Macclesfield's trial took up,
with the eight Sessions of Parliament consumed in
that of Mr. Hastings, and the difference, both in de-
lay and expenees, was truly monstrous. There was
another circumstance that weighed also with him In
these times, the profusion of so large a sem of mo-
ney. AS it would necessarily take in fitting
up Westminster Hall, was, with him, by no
means, a matter of indifference ; but he could
no: help observing, that in all cases where great
sums cut money are continually passing thrisu,Th
men's liaads, they beet me careless of small sums,
and scare. ly think tie m deserving their notice.
Fur his own part, however, he was for saving as
much of the Public mosey as possible, and he cosh&

. .
see no gend whatever in ircerring so II; less an ex-
peece. Another point weighed still more with him,
elti..h sees, ilea where substantial justice mind be
obtained ore way as well as another, he would care-
fully abstain from putting the individual to he tried,
to one shilling exeence, that could .possibly be
avoided, and for these reasons he objceSed to the
present motion.
Lord FOLKSTONE said, the nhieettnns made
by the Honourable Gentlemen to the present
motion, he by no means could agree to The delays
which had occutrrd
to its h
in Mr. Hastings's a
gctrirarl;d o
eferen in
not
by any means
owing
Westminster-hall ;but to a variety of circum-
stances which were not at all likely to occur in the
present case. As to the matter of expence, their argu-
ments go against entering into any expence at all in
trials such as this, for high crimes and misdemeanours.
It was and ever had been, the great boast of this
country, and the praise of its laws, that trials, in all
cases, were as public as possible ; the people expect-
ed they should be so, and would not be satisfied, if
a case so important as this is, should be made an
exception to the general rule. He thould, therefore,
support the Motion.
Lord H. PET FY said, he differed with the l lon.
Gentleman who spoke last but one, in every point
he had touched upon, and could nut avoid express.
ing his surprise, that his arguments should have met
the approbation of those who bad voted for chang-
ing that mode of proceeding, which had originally
been determined on by the House. They had, by
their majority, turned the trial in the Courts of Law,
which was fixed by the House,into that by Impeach-
ment, end would now invalidate the force and ef-
fect of the Impeachment, by taking away its solem-
nity and publicity. The Hon. Gentleman had al-
hided to Mr. Hastings's trial, and said it was a dis-
grace to that house. He was not himself in Par-
liament during the period of that trial, but he had
never heard it mentioned as a disgrace to that House,
nor any thing like it. An inconvenience, ind..rd, it
bad proved, and a very great one; but the house
would call to mind, that Mr. Hastings's was a
I case in which there were innumerable delays, and
most of those inevitable. That the evidence was
voluminous and complicated, and branched
out into. a great variety of channels. This,
on the contrary, was confined almost to a
single point, wii.ch would contribute to make it
comparatively very short. It the arguments of the
Hon. Gentlemen were attended to by the House,
there would soon be an end of those kind of trials
altogether. The House would, no doubt, be ap-
plied to, on the same grounds, in all trials %%hien
contained le:greater scope of evidence, and, conse-
quently, of delay and expence; and they would
have no Alternative, but to desist from the wise and
wholesome modes of proceeding adopted by their
ancestors, and those constitutional maxims, rules,
and regulations, which had to long, so safely, and
so nrofitably been followed by them, and which had
uniformly and invariably prevailed for ages. As
to the argument of expence, he was much sur-
prised at the alarming and extraordinary extent to
which it had been carried. If you found it neces-
sary to enquire into the true state of millions ex-
pended abroad, you are told of the dreadful l a-
pence of printing those documents, which are ne-
ceisary to a due investigation of the subj.el;
and now, in the case of an Impeachment of a leer
of the realm, and one who has tilled the hilliest
offices of the State, for high crimes and misdomean-
ours. the Hon. Gentlemen attempt to alarm the
House with the vast expence of wooden benches,
flatting, and scaffolding, necessary to the fitting up
a place proper fur the trial. Some people were
apt to talk of the ruin of the country, but in his
mind, if ever the unfortunate period should arrive,
when that event should happen, it would be owing
to the tameness and apathy e kit which they had be-
held the wanton waste of millions, without celliug
the parties concerned to account, arid not to the
expence of paper and printing, for the investigation
of their conclu3 or for wooden benches, matting, and
scaffolding, necessary to bring them to their trials.
The Noisle Lord alluded tw the situation of the
I loitoureble Gentleman who spoke first it: the debate,
and allowed that he was prompted by feelings must
honourable to himself in a private point of view.
l'be House, would, however, do him the justice to
recnlleet, that be was also under the impulse of
feelings whirls aOneted him in a public point of
view. He should, in a few days, have the ar-
duous and ungracious task imposed on him, of
adding very largely to the public burdens; and,
he felt that he could not, with any degree of justice,
do this, without giving them, by a public trial, tie if
full share of knowledge and understanding, of those
circumstances which are to constitute and prove
those charges adduced against the Noble Lord, of
having been guilty of malversation in duly apply-
ing the public money entrusted to his care and ma-
nagement. Their participation in the full disclo-
sure of all circumstances attending 'the trial will
give the most general satisfeetion, and that, will, in
case of an acquittal, be greatly increased, from their
knowing the cleft pounds on which it took place.
This advantage nel.t stoke even the Hon. Gent.
himself who opened the debate. With respeff,
however, to the expellee which this trial would he
to the Noble Lord. there certainly was no ground
of eompl.sint es yet. He was sure it would be the
wish of both Houses to make it as small as possi-
ble, and in case of an acquittal, he had no doubt
but it might hereafter become a subjea of consider.
anon in that House ; or if guilty, would he consider-
ed in the judgment that might take place. The
first objeft was the attainment of steistantial justice
I before the eyes of the public, and that could net be
dent but by a trial in Westminster Hall, which
would be absolutely necessary for the sake of a
due solemnity and publicity. For these reasons
he should certainly vote in favour of the motion.
Mr. ROSE said, that he thought the :node of
impeachment to be a very proper one in this case,
and had therefore voted for it; but when he did so,
be never thought that it was to be in Westminster ;
on the contrary, he expeded that she last precedent
which occurred of a Peer being tried, in the case
of Lord hlacclesfield at the bar of the House of
Lords. maul,' have prevailed on this ucc.tcion. It
bad been generally supposed, that the trial of Mr.
ill•stings, which was dragged through eight sessions
of Parliament, would, in point even of con eeaience.
have prevented a lecurren:e to that peeeice for
I
the future, as is all cases of trial, the House of

jails, as n Crain 4 ins ke, lrft it; doors or.-en Per
theet that came, white there was room ft r them he
thought 4 a much mcro pvhtic C .sect thin Wes:,
Mare, Hail. (.1 /gee :rem 14: vit-rri fr.) He pin.
ended then to say. that he thought gentlemen miot
as well wait until they heard him out, before thy
exercised their m..rriment. Ina trial at W tr•ti ti ta,a
the public had no means ofadm assi-n, lint by
getting tickets from wine j Or if the trial hotel
long enough, perhaps to get them irt:m his ',iv.
In use Ilah there were all the forms cf proceisinr,
callingsovet a list of names, air a number of nth,
formalities, to be obteri:d ee'Sry day, which WOH:
not he resorted to in their own thamt.er, whe.e there
wanid be no impediments. Thn tsitshle Lord dwelt
much upon his reelinrs, in consequence of haeir
burdens to lay upt,n the public. He gave him ere.
die far the sincerity of these feelings, with illicit
he was very *eil acquainted, not from having
been in such a high situation himself, but for b..
ink thane years connefileal with that great man
wilts held that situation fur such a number of
years. He was well aware that the Noble Lard
itt-ttlld have heavy hutthens to impose, brit he saw
no rea on far such a gloomy temesentation ; as Ile
was convinced the rewire-, of the enuntry wnul.j
he found fully enmpetent to all its w ants. Ile al o
admitted, that it was highly necessary to inquire hi.
tn all abuses. He was atways a friend to such ir.
quiries, in confirmation of which, he referred to his
uniforrn condat in Parliament.

Lord H. PETTY denied that he said any thin.
of a gloomy or despondent nature. What he
stared W.“, that if the country should he ruined by
its finances it would not he from the expence
mats or wooden benches, but by the want of prie-
ciple.
Mr. WHITBREAD said, he had a great respen
for the line of concließ adopted by hfr. R. Dimitcs
in the course of there prom- ,iogs ; but he con:I
not hut ohs•-rve, that ell the force of his arguments
to-night, rested on the expence, and vetAtious
ratting!, to which a trial is Westminster 14a11 would
expose the Defendant. Fur his own part, he was
very far from wishing to vex, or to herrass art
man, but wished this trial to be condutled with all
that solemnity and publicity which obtained for
British justice that charafter which it now justly
maintained throughout the world. He feared, that
if the gentlemen opposite to him were allowed to
carry their principle as far as they now proposed,
the next step they would take was, to shut up peblic
courts altogether, and give the preference to privets
tribureils, over all public courts of justice (Lod
rics of ! 'acs! Pew tie Opps•iliars. cad of he.,rl
bear fium tle .illitiorreal side* of the Heat, 1 By
the same, they might easily get rid of impedi-
ments altogether But surely, when they rn.teel to
reverse the vote for a CrittillalpV•ternltittn, and pre.
pqsed the impeachment instead of ir, they had, t. r
they most have had, all :he expeace against which
they now so vehemently declaimed, in their con-
templation at the moment (,erne e basil hear!/
Trials of impeachment, in Westminster Hall, were.
at all times, the unit'. rrn pre:dice of .Parliament;
and the only exception to it we.. the cese of Lord
:Macclesfield, whieis had been so often referred to.
That trial would have been perhaps equally as short
in Westminster Hall, as it was at the Bar of tke
House of Lorels ; because, that Nobleman took few
or no exceptions to the qttestions put to Witnesses,
AS was done in the trial of Mr. Hastings, which was
Always the great Call* of delay, because they ob.
liged the Lords to retire each time, for the purrs:
of deliberating, and dividing on them. But reel
at that time, though the Leis determined for a
trial at their Bar, it was the occasion of mane
strong protests ; from one of et h:ch he read an ex.
traa, containing many of the arguments aglete
such trials, which were resorted to in the present
debate. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Rey)
said, he thought a trial at the Ear of the House t
Lords would be more public than one in Westmia-
ster Hall, which was very strange, as that chamber
could cot contain all the Members of that Huse,
who would think it their duty to attend the trial.
It was true the House of Lords had been coesider•
ably enlarged once the time of Lord Nlsccleefizid
but the number of the Lords had also since very
much increased, as rust he clearly within the krow-
ledge of that Right Honourable Gentleman.--v
However, so far was Lord Macclesfield's trial frees
deserving the name of being a puhlic one. that one
of the Managers was at that time so severely bons-
ed in the crowd, that he died of it on the following
day. The Right lioncurahle Gentleman said, teat
he was always a friend to inquiries into abuses.. It
may be so; but of this he was certain, that the RV:
Honourable Gentteman uniformly voted :wins:
them; (hearing a cry of As! No! from the eppesi"e
site of the House, Mr, Whitbread anewere.".
" hot I say, Ye. ! Yes!") Being then called to or-
der from the Chair, he proceeded to state, that
was sorry for any trespass he might nave made tee
on order, but thought himself justified in ob•erse, r.
that the irregularity did not begin with him. .i'•e
Right Honourable Gentleman not only voted again!:
all such inquiries, but also voted. originally again`:
thie iMpachnsent. by dividing in support
the previous question moved upon it ; and )
voted for it afterwards, for the purpose of game
rid of the criminal prowess-ion; for his own par
he was ready to go to any caprice that the occaue%
might call for. As to what was said of get"‘
tickets from Lords, he thought little of that arz ••
meat. as the Peers would certainly have more kJ:
thotity in their own Chan !ser, than they could wee
exercise in Westminster-hell. The Hon. Gentleman,
who opened the debate, referred to him, as known'
the circumstances of Lord Melville. It cater •!"
happened, that, in the course of their investigetien•
a snootier of things tame to the knowledge of ij '7
Committee, which w. re not necessary for them is
be informed of; but he never searched into than :
he did not want to knew them; not did he nice'.
at any time, to speek tsf them; so that, in '
was not acquainted with Lord Melville's Is""
van circumstances. If this inn of plea were
mitted, there neve: wowed be an impeach:nen. •
pro-ecutien ; for any man may say, " it is Lot t "
to prosecute me, fit,- I am too poor to deter d
Upon the whole, the best security that c.'
he had for prthhe justice, was, solemnity ate! t'
licity in their proceedings. It was said,
Lord Maeclesfidd, though tried at the bar
the Peers, was a man of so high a charase•
to have been Lord High Clrentell is, and