The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1825-04-01 00:00:00

IRELAND.

MITRACTS FROM THE EVIDENCE GIVEN DErMilt THE
LORDS' CO3IIIITTEE, APPOINTED TO INQUIRE IPTO THE
ITATC Or !ORLAND.
Daniel O'Connell, Esq. examined.
Does it occur to you that the equalization of political rights en-
joyed by Catholics and Protestants would be conveniently and ad-
vantageously accompanied by some Legislative provision for the
Catholic Clergy, dependent on the will and pleasure of the Crown ?
Yes, it does. I think it would be very desirable in that cue, that
the Government should possess a legitimate influence over the Ca-
tholic Clergy, so that in all the relations of the State with Foreign
Powers, the Government should be as secure of the Catholic Clergy as
they are now of the Protestant l'lergy. I think, therefore, it would
be very desirable, that the Government should have that reasonable
bond, that would bind the Catholic Clergy in interest to them, as
well as in duty. I should be very desirous myself of seeing Go-
vernment possess that influence.
Have you considered, and can you communicate to the Commit-
tee, the details of any such measure ?
I thinks moderate provision shoo 41 be made for the Catholic Cler-
gy, aseettainit:g that they were native-born subjects, born in allegiance.
With the exception of individuals at present alive, and fit for offices,
who have been partly educated abroad, my wish, and that of the
Catholic Gentlemen and Noblemen with whom I act, would be,
that theCatholie Clergy should he, means being found fur that
purpose which do not exist at present, educated within the allegi-
ance, so that all foreign influence by reason of education should
be taken away, as well an foreign influence by reason of birth.
From yout knowledge of the feelirga of the Catholic Clergy, are
you convinced that, as accompanying Emancipation, they would
be generally ready and willing to receive State provision ?
I have not the least doubt on my mind that they would be quite
ready, as accompanying Emancipation. I have as little doubt
that they would be decidA in their rejection, if t:ffered to them,
wi:hnut the equalization of civil rights—what we call Emancipation.
Will you have the goodness to state the rea'ons a bleb will lead
the Catholic clergy to the rejection of any provision on the part of
the Government; unless connect: with Catholic Emancipation ?
They would be *opposed to have sold their religion, to have
trafficlied Lie themselves, and to have attached themselves to a Go.
comment Which the people cousidee hostile to them ; to nave taken
an inimical position, anti to have taken it for the mottles that are
considered the worst, (rem personal pecuniary advantage; they'
would therefore lose their influence almost entirely.
Ara you of opit-iun ivy corrective could be applied to the evils
which are understood to have arisen from the system of 40s. free-
holds in Ireland ?

It ia difficult for me to answer that question. The system of 40s.
freeholds in 'relied is essentially different from that which it is
in England ; there are, however, some 40s. freeholders in Ireland
who have fee simple wades, and with these I suppose nobody
would meddle. Then with re.pect to those who have Orrivative in-
terests, there is an immense deal of perjury, from the accumula-
tion of oaths ; and they are part of the live stock of an estate.
And I think in counties, although bed as the system is--it is of
some value to those of the peasants who have any share in it—it
may, upon a proper arrangement, be very advisable to raise the
qualification in the counties of those subordinate sours. I think it
would not, perhaps, be wise to agitate a question of that kind with-
out accompanying it with measures to allay discontents.
Are you prepared to -ggest to the Committee an arrangement,
such as that you have alluded to?
No further than this; that if Emancipation were accompanied
with the raising the qualifications of derivative rights in counties
to five or ten pounds, I do not think it would excite any general
disaatisfaction ; and I ant sure it would not, if the Legislature acted
upon it in that way, create any serious dissatisfaction, or any thing
that the Government need apprehend.
Do you think there would be a great objection to raising the
qualification to twenty pounds?
I do. I think twenty pounds would be considered much too high;
and as excluding so immense a number of the occupiers, that it
would estate considerable discontent in any way.
Do you think you would avoid the mil of perjury by raising it
to ten pounds?
Yes, I do; a man who had a ten pound freehold would be known
among his neighbours; he would have a character to preserve: and
I do not think there would be nearly the temptation to perjury
there is now. _

Do yeti think any voter. really independent, would be dis..
qualified by raising the vote to ten pounds, or even to twenty
pounds ?
I have no doubt that many voters, really independent, would be
disqualified by raising it to twenty pounds ; I :hihk very few by
nosing it to ten pounds. In talking of derivative tights, very few
who would vote according to their own wish would be disqualified
in their own counties by raising it to ten pounds. But it is only due
to candour to state, that as between Protestant and Catholic, I think
the firty shilling freeholders in almost all parts increase the Prows.
tent interest, though mostly Catholics ; that they are so much in
the power of their Protestant landlords, that a high-ascendancy-
gentleman, in the county of Cork, would march six hundred voters
to an ell ction to vote, if he pleased, for the Grand !Hester of the
Orange Lodge, in my opinion, and all under the guidance of a Ro-
man Catholic Magistrate.
Do you think the raising the qualification to ten pounds would
be productive of great benefit to Ireland?
I thltkit would be productive of benefit. It is, in my humble
lodgment, no small bent fit if you get rid of any portion of perjury;
and it is the corninenctrt ent of what we want so much in Ireland, a
substantial yeomanry. At present the population is too much di-
vided between the highest and the very lowest class.
From the great influence on the part of the Catholics, do they
not, in paint of tact. derive great indirect political influence from
the forty-shilling freeholders at present ?
I confess, I think that the forty-shilling freeholder who votes
against his landlord is generally. mined by it. There is a heart-
rendingscene following the election ; and afar all, with every poli-
tical feeling, it is extremely difficult to reconcile one's self to the
misery it products.
Can you state what effect, or whether any effect, has been ;in-
duced upon the minds of the lower orders of the Irish Catholics by
what are called Pacitorint's Prophecies ?
I think that no effect has been produced upon the lower orders of
the Irish Catholics by the book called " Pastorini's Prophecies."
That book war written by an English Bishop, a Dr. 11 alrnsley,
and it would not have been beard of in Ireland it it had not, as we
understand, been spread very much by persons inimical to the
Catholic Claims. There was a considerable number of copies
of it printed in Dublin, and certainly not printed with the
assent of any Catholic. And the year 1825, as the ominous
year in " Pas orini's Prophecies," is, I believe, a mere mis-
print. I bare been, for some time, aware of that fact, but I
thought it better not to mention it. lest we should have another
year of disturbance and distrust. The prophecy fixes a period
of three hundred years, from the commencement of the este-
blislimeht of the persuasion of the Protestants until they should
all return back to the ancient Church. As to the Look itself, it
is a book very likely to excite very little attention in Ireland ;
it is not written with virulence, so as to gratify the vulgar; it is
not written with taste or talent, so as to please the educated;
and it has been condemned by the highest authorities in the Ca-
' tholic Church, from the moment it issued. The Rev. Alban
Butler, who wrote a singular work called the Lives of the
principal Saints and Martyrs, In twelve volumes, condemned it
I strongly and distinctly when it came out; and 1 he! eve it was
never approved of by any Catholic Bishop whatever. But to re.
turn to the calculation, it is just this : the reformed Churches took
the denomination of Protestants, from the protest against the de.
cision of the Emperor and the Diet of Spires, which occurred in the
year 1528 or the commencement of 15211; the protestation is dated
the 14th or 19th of April, 1529, which was just at the commence-
ment of the year when the fourteen cities declared themselves
Protestants. The calculation is taken therefore from 1528 by
Paatexiii, the three hundred will be at an end in I 828; but in the
original edition, 1828 is primed 1825, notwithstanding the three
hundred years are calculated Iron, 1528, and I attribute to that
mispnnt the fact, that the year 1825 has become lb ominous one.
1 discovered this mistake some time ago, and intim upon the
point of proelsiming the discovery, but 1 corrected melt by the
redaction, that if I did so, we should have another year of the same
folly, as has been exhibited in the present year.
Has Dot some countenance been given to the miracles of Prince
floheille?
Yes, the miracles, through the intercession of Prince flohenlohe
there were two instances published. one by Dr. Doyle. and the
other by Dr. Murray. 1 iovestigated the documents published by
Dr. Murray, and certainly they are of a staggering nature: there
must certainly be perjury or a miracle, or one of those extraordinary
recoveries to my mind unaccountable.
Have they not received the sanction of some of the Roman
Bishops ?
' Yes, ot. Dr. Murray. The Doctrine of the Catholic Church is,
that miracles have not ceased; we believe that the miraculous powers
are to continue aulang as the ckurch--minscu)ouspower through in-
tercession, or, as mentioned in the Scripture. by reverence for the
Saints or their relic,. Particular miracles we are not bound to be-
lieve. Each Catholic is at liberty to reject the belief of etch par.
ticalar miracle ; but we are bound to believe that the miraculous
powers have not ceased, and will not cease. Wc conceive they
are suspended according to the will of Providence, and brought
forward when he is pleased so to order it. Coupled with that tenet,
we are permitted to be credulous upon the subject of each parti-
cular miracle, and not to Omit it bnt on the must code naive
ground. In the case of the miracle Dr. Alurrarproclaimed, the
lady herself must be guilty of perjury, or she recovered with the
most cittrnordinary rapidity. The fact, in my belief, .depends upon
the credit belonging to her.
The 11ev. John Burnett examined--What are those doctrines
which you think the Protestants usually attribute by mistake to
the Catholics

The Protestants are in the habit of understanding that the Ca.
hold the doctrine of exclusive salvation—that is, that no
person who is not • Catholic can be finally saved. The Protestants
imagine Also, that the Catholics hold that they are not required to
keep faith with heretics in any contract into which they may enter
with them. whether by oath or otherwise. The Protestants gene-
rally—l speak of the south of Ireland, where I live myself—the
Protestatits generally. in that quarter, imagine that the old does
trine of the Pope'a power, to put an interdict on a kingdom, for
ties purpose of subduing the Sovereign and the subjects to the See
of Rome, is also held by the Roman Catholics; and they imagine
that the old doctrine of the Jesuits, that the and will sanctify the
metrs, is also held by them; that if the interests of the Catholic
Church are the end, any means may he employed for effecting it.
I do not think that the Roman Catholics lb general hold these
doctrines.

The Rev. Jame* Doyle, I) D. examined—Bishop in the Roman
C.atholse. Church: of the dmeese of Kildare and Leigblin.
Do you ditok them would be no objection on the part of the