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London, England, 1805-03-27 00:00:00

guars orsly that part which would be the least ef-
feetive Instead of that method, he should prefer
the plan of allowing them to stlea a third or fourth
of each regiment, and that the remainder, disposed
to enlist, should be determined by ballot. Upon
the whole, he was quite a friend to the principle of
the Bill, and wished it complete success; but be
hoped that the men so gained would be kept for the
&fence of the country, and for attaining first an
honourable peso., instead of being sent upon distant
and dangerous citteetlith
Col. BASTARD lmented to find that the Right
I lonrurable Gentleman, elm was considered as
the champion and parent of the Militia, should nbw
support, it expectedly, a measure for tearing it to
pieces He could not account for the sudden change
of his opinion in favour of a Bill, which was made
the ste-stitute for the energetic measures he proposed
himself, and which, it adopted, would kayo no ne-
cessity for haring recourse to this. This Bill, he
thought, must re a d to excite insubordination and
disunion in the Militia, and if the Right Hon. Gent. ii
had this plan in view when he proposed the aug-
mentation of the militia, hewas ailing more disinge-
nuously than he could have expo red. The officers of
1 militia would not, he believed, resign their corn-
minions while the country was in danger, but he
greatly hated, that this act would drive them to it ;
at the sano• time that it would impose a burthen on,
and disgust, the landed interest. They would, of
course, tight like ere: y other Englishman, pro wit
effort,' if the enemy e ec landed, but after harmony
and discipline were destroyed amongst their regi-
ments. they could n' t be expeaed to make any great
exertions for the pr, jet of hurling the Emperor of
the French, and King of Italy, from his throne
(tome I.v/der was here erritell by the mistake of the
Hon. Member, an mandating the Emperor of Germany
instead ne the parson wit,na at was his lit 'dim 19 de-
ad-IGO—he made no doubt of the merits o. the Rt.
Hon. Gentleman as Colonel of a Militia Regimen;
but must observe, that, in general, at least, thoSe
Colonels who most negletled their duty, would t,e
the most removed from the operation of this bill ;
that in those regiments which volunteered most, there
was the least discipline, and certainly the least at-
tachment to their officers.
Earl TEMPLE said, he did not know that he
should have been induced to say any thing upon
the Bill in the present stage of it, had it not been
for the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Yorke), who found so strange a method r f recon-
ciling duties sn very contrary to each other, as those
of a Secretary at War, and of a Militia Colonel.
The only argument for this Bill, namely, that of
getting a great accession to the Regular Army,
was used by his Right Hon. Relation (Mr. Pin), in
support of his ineffective Defence Bill, which met
with the decided opposition of the Bight I ionottr-
able Gentleman. When this measure was resorted
to in 1799, there vas a beer-r ground for it than
now, as a distirot nbjea was then stated for it, an 1
a pledge given that it ',head teed be recurred to
any more. Besides at that time the Militia Officers
had only the proposition made to them of using
their influence with the men to enlist for limited
service in Europe, wh:reas now they were to be in-
duced to enlist for life, and for a smaller bounty than
before. He could not account for the motives which
could lead Mr. Yorke, in time of peace, to augment
the Militia to 60,030 men; and now, in time of war,
and threats of in.aeion, to vote for their redultion to
40,0001. He did not, it seemed, feel any constitu-
tional objeaion to the measure ; but he should have
recollefted that the Militia was raised as a constitu-
tional
force, aid for the specific ohjeet, on the faith
of Parliament, that they should only he employed
at home for the defence of the country, withrut
being under the coutroul, or totally at the dis-
poo.l of the Crown. '1 be Militia was quite a
separate establishment, and when the Crown ne-
Fleeted it, the Lonls Lieutenants of Counties were
invested, after a census lapse of time, with the
power of appointing officers. It was not raised at
the expence of the Crown, and was always paid by
land-owners and farmers, who were at the expence
of providing substitutes. It was in vain to say,
that the men by this measure had the option of en-
listing or remaining, as they might think proper ;
because every one knew that if their companions vo-
lunteered, those who refused to do the same would
be looked upon as wanting in military spirit. It
was, indeed, voluntary in the name, but, in felt, it
was the contrary. He was one -of those opposi-
tionists, who, as a Militia Colonel, signed the circular
paper alluded to by the Right Hon. Gentleman
( Mr. Yorke) ; but as he was drawn into the scrape
by the example of his Right Hon. Relation (Mr.
Pitt), on a forcer occasion, an I. he hoped, that
Gentleman would not ii fuse to take his share in the
blame r,f it, in saying, that :f an Administration
had been formed on a b oad and comprehensive
scare, the same measure would have been pursued,
and no objection made to it ; the Right Hon.
Gentleman only assumed a faCt, which he did not
allow him entitled to do.

The Marquis of DOUGLAS dec'ared his deter-
mination to oppose the present Bill in every stage of
its progress, it being in every respell unjust, and a
violation of the fai.h of Pall anent. He contended
that the Right H n Gentleman I %lr. Yorke) argued
unconstituuonal:y on the part of the Militia, and
proved that he had neither delicacy nor feeling
toward this establishment. He was at a loss to ac-
count far his apostacy.
Mr. YORKE here appealed to the Chair, and
submitted, that the language employed towards him,
by the Noble Marquis, was not parliamentary.
The SPEAKER informed the Noble Marquis
that it would be necessary for him to abstain from
any personality.
The MARQUIS then said, he bowed with great
deference to the authority of the Chair, and, hav-
ing no intenticn to offend. hoped the House and the
Right Hon. Gent. would accept of his apology.
He then proceeded to state that the Militia Officers
did not so much übjea to this measure from feeling,
as upon the constitutional ground, that by propos-
ing this measure to them, tilt,' would be defrauding
them into aal acceptance "(what they had no reason
to expe&. He himself, though by no means divest-
ed of the feelings of a Militia Colonel, objetted to it
principally from its doing injustice to the proprietors
and occupiers of the land, who would by this Bill be
obliged to pay a second bounty for substitutes.
It was fallacious to say, that all persons paid
egisatly, and in proportion. for the army and navy.
The Members of the Lnivei skies, and many other

descriptions, were exempted from the operation of
the ballots. Part also of the pay of Militia men
WAS appropriated to the maintenance of their fami-
lies ; but when they should enlist into the Regulars,
the support of their wives and children would fall
upon the parishes. As a Scotchman, he said, he
had to complain that the country was put to the
expence of providing for 10,0 .0 men ; there were
no more than 6,000 left for its defence ; and
none of the Regulars stationed there, for their
domestic proteCtion He heard a report, that
the Noble Lord who had the chief military com-
mand there, had lately resigned it, finding that all
those exertions of his which had gaiined him the
confidence, respell, and veneration of all parts aid
ranks in that country, were not sufficient to supply
the military deficiencies. He must also objeCt to
the measure upon the ~round of policy, when the
alarm of invasion had not yet subsided. What
chance had we of co-operating in any Continental
war, when we were destitute of a single ally ? In
11's Majesty's Speech from the Throne, he only
ventured to speak of confidential negociations'
with foreign courts, hut no effeCt was yet produced
from it, nor did hear of a tingle movement in
out favour. lie dented that it was the wish or dis-
position of the Militia soldiers to volunteer in the
regulars, ra- to part from the Officers who now
commanded them. His Lordship apologised for
having detained the House so long, and concluded
by saying th it he spoke under the proteCtion of that
principle which sanflionel every man in advancing
what he thought was the gond of his country, and
partizillarly at a time when its councils stood so
much in need of uacommon integrity and eqdity.
Lord STANLEY took a review of the argu-
ments urged by Mr. Yorke, and said he thought it
was an unjust measure, and would be a much more
expensive way of raising men for the army than any
other which His Majesty's Ministers could possibly
have thought on, nor could he see any argument cr.
reason to support it, even in the slightest degree.
The Earl of EUSTON said he had, on a former
occasion, opposed a Bill similar to this ; but the rea-
sons which then induced him to oppose it, would
now produce a contrary effeCt, provided the body on
which it was to operate were to he allowed to choose
whether they would enter into the service or not.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that as the observations he had to offer to the
House were such as would not render it necessary
for him to trespass at much length on their time, as
on the present occasion he had the misfortune to
differ in opinion from so many respeetable person-
ages, as the Honourable Gentlemen serving as co-
lonels in the Militia, it could not at the same time
but afford him the highest satisfatlion that.he had on
his side so high and respeetable an authority as the
Noble Lard who had just sat down. There was,
however, uric reason whic4 had been very ge-
nerally given in the ccittse of this debate,
which he th u..;ht was by no means founded
in tact, sit. that no ground was made out
which sli.wed the ozcessity of the measure in
question. Now, in his opinion, the strongest
grounds had been laid before the House from
the very beginning, for it had been the inva-
riable argument on his side of the House, and nas
indeed a p tint Do which all were agreed, that our
Army (lid want an increase, and that it was a point
the most highly important to have a disposeabl..
Iforce of such magnitude, as might enable us to of
on the offensive against the enemy, whenever a pro.
per occasion or opportunity might occur, and he
thought it, *ler such an admisston, trifling to as-
sante and say, that we should endeavour to raise and
bring forward that force, till some expedition or
other, such as that which had occasioned a similar
call un die Militia on a former occasion, should be
aftually on foot, or on the point of being sent out.
He adverted to what had been said by several Hon.
Members in the course of the debate, relative to
the change of opinion of an Hon. Gentleman near
him (Mr. Yorke), which opinion he was proud of
having in his favour ; and contended, that there was
not any inconsistency whatever in the Hon Gentle-
man's having adopted the measure in question, be-
cause he had proposed one of a different nature, for it
was certainly possible for two persons to have dif-
ferent plans for the same, or a similar measure, of
which each might think his own the best, and yet,
if he could not carry it into effen, he might very
Fairly and reasonably adopt and support the other, if
he should be of opinion, that it would be of service
to the general interests and welfare of the Army.
There was one argument very much in favour of the
present Bill, in the instance of the Committee,
moved for at the beginning of the present Session,
by a Right Hon. Gent. opposite (Mr. Windham),
for there was one point which expressly went to
shew, that our Militia should be reduced, for the
purpose of increasing our regular army,which it was
the grand objerit of this Bill to do in the speediest
manner possible. But it has been urged repeatedly,
that this is interfering with a pledge given to the
country, that 68,000 men should be kept up as
Militia, for the internal defence of the country.
He denied that any such pledge as had been ad-
verted to was ever attually given to any thing like
the extent that was contended for ; the Aftiof Parlia-
ment, which was supposed to contain and give this
pledge, was an AN wale (or the purpose of re-
ducing the Militia to 40,010 men, in t me of peace.
The number was to be 61,000 for all Great Britain,
in time of war; but in the Aft, there was an ex-
press power given to the King, to reduce them
again to 40,000 as soon as peace should take place.
He expressed himself surprised to hear that
some Honourable Members, without considering
the present state of Europe, or what might
probably offer as a means of annoyance to the
enemy, seem to think the best means of de-
fence would be obtained, by locking up, or
chaining down a particular and large body of
men. As to the arguments which had been used
relative to the hardship of substitutes, he insisted,
they were fallacious—for the whole that can happen
is, the ballot was to be taken from the apportion-
ments for the whole of the kingdom, and then no
person would have to find more than one substitute.
One of the principal reasons that had been given,
and most strongly urged against the measure, was,
that it would injure the militia service, by suffering
the men to enlist into the regular army. In this,
however, every care had been taken to provide
against any such disadvantage, that could be de•
vised, and the present Bill was calculated to keep
• the Recruiting Officers and Serjeants as tar from the

.. h •.
~'

!Militia as possible. He had no doubt, but re-
ci Along Serjeants should be able to g:t near
men, they would be induced to use many arts ,n
duce them into the regular army ; but he pan:spiv
denied that any instruCtions had ever been giver. by
Govet mein forrecruiting parties to go into the coon.
try forthat purpose. 0e the contrary, there had Sea
one single instance, where an application of the knt
had been made, and an etyltbs'e and dire refold
WAS instantly given on the part of Goveriam-al.
Every possible facility was intended to be given- to
the Offieers of the militia, towards furnishing that
men, ie the way most agreeable and convenient t,
themselves. If the four-fifths should he imme-
diately provided, in all such cases there would fre
nothing RAMC undo than to deliver their several .iral
respenive quotas to the Officers and Serjeants of it:
regular army, at such places as ate appointed es
ccive them, and the trouble would be trilin..; ind
As to the particular clauses of the bill, he wOO,l
not, at that time, enter upon them, as the Omani-
tee would be the most proper place to do in. Thee
were alto many consideratinns of deta !. inm segue
he would nut enter at present. The neces•re 44p,
creasing our regular at my, and adding
bly to our dispiisable I •rce, had been admitted eel
all hands and, as he had not heard any argurnats
to convince him this was not the most prompt 414
easy method of doing it, he a: listed the bill worilit
now be read a second time.
Mr. WINDHA%I said, the Right Hon. Gentle-
man was now employed in taking down part of the
building, which he had been several years in /airs
ing. He had no objeCtion to his doing so ;on el;
co trary, he liked the wiwk, and the mode of doing
it, for a more formal, forcible, plain, and pointed
condemnation, of part of his former system, could
not well be devised and brought into :salon. The
Right lion. Gentleman went on doing and undo-
ing ; one day bringing forward one measure, and
then doing it away by another measure ; so thn
you can never know what to praise, nor what to
condemn ; hut his measures operated one against
another, and you were induced to approve some, CO
the same grounds that you make a hedge Ur spun.
ing. ,We have militia upon militia, in swift and
rapid succession First, there was the original milk
tie ; then the supplementary militia ; then the
Scotch militia upon the English ; in feet, the Right
Hon. Gentleman had been piling Pelion on Ossa,
in such a manner as to astonish anwreasonable judg-
ment; till at length he became bankrupt in the mad.,
and opened a shop fur abolishing the ballot.
however, he had retained till the opening of his fa-
vourite measure, his , i-lbrated parish beauty, in her
neat russet gown. with which hr. was most violendfia
love. when he found he ci sal f no longer raise offi-
cers for the Militia ; an-I then that there was a pea
want of men for the Regular Army. He then got
rid of the ballot. Fiere•mis A second departure
from his opinion, as to the principle of reducing the
Militia, and the effect of this was, to bring him
back to that state in which the ballot was again ne-
cessary. With respect to the present meavere.
Right Hon. Gentleman denied that it was neces-
sary; and further said, it would not prove effica-
cious anl serviee.th!e ; f.w. said he, if we gain men to
.the Army, we lose them from the Militia, and so ate
vet y little the better. The truth was, that °Ricers of
the Regular Army were by no means inclined to take
men from the Militia ; and he had been informed
by many esperien:ed, that military Office% wonld
much :attire have ereirely raw recruits, than take
men who had been servieg some time in the Militia.
The reason assigned for this was, that there was
something in the nature of the service in the /Alicia,
that makes a man less traslable, and therefore they
had mare trouble in bringing him to a state of com-
plete discipline, than one they had to train hewn the
plough or the loom. The Right Hon. Gentleman
then went into a similar review of our regular forces
with that which he took at the beginning of the
Session, and now as then denrecated the manner in
which they had been raised by piece-meal.—
He wished to see a general change if the whole
system and Sc, vice of the arms • Ile mentioned
again the difficulty thrown in the way of
raising men, on account of their being ennst-
ed fat lire. If they were, on the contrary, to be
enlisted for only a term of years, he was certain they
would rush eagerly into the service; they would
swum like bees, if the hive were ready placed to re-
ceive them. He adverted to the numerous objections
which had been made by the Militia Officers, and
said, they would have been less, if they had supposed
this business was ever to have an end ; but the
danger they apprehended was, that these calls
on them would be constantly and continually made.
and as such, it was not surprising they wet e so averse
from the measure. He was very pointed in his ob-
servations of the means Ministers bad adopted for
encreasing the army, and said he never saw se
miserable an experiment of men's living on shifts
and expedients. He adverted to the debate
which had taken place on the Defence Hill
which had taken up a whole evening to debate
whether the measure had failed or not. It was to
get 28,000 men, and had raised about two. kle
made some whimsical allusions to a tailor and h s
apprentice; but, from the dropping of his vole,', Ye
could not distinetly hear it all. The objeCtio, •
the Militia Colonels did not augur well to the sr , -
cess of this measure; nothing short of some great r.-
cessity should ever cause us to resort to what was so
injurious to the Militia service, for, by doing so, We
should lose more from the Militia than we should
gain from the army, on account of a mere temp,
rare expedient. The Army should be put on a her
and permanent system, and be composed of CA,
Same sort of force, or the service would be ruined.
These were the general ohjettions he had to the
measure, and induced him to oppose the further
progress of the Bill.
The question being loudly called for, the House
divided, and the numbers appeared—
For the second reading of the Bill, 148—Against
it, 59—Majority, 89.
The Bill WAS then read a second time.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQ:JiIR
moved that the House do resolve itself ants a Com-
mittee upon tie said bill an Thursday next.
Karl TEMPLE objeCted to Thursday, as being
too short a period to give the qiiestion stifficiettt
consideration. His Lordship was Answered by tle
CnANCELI we of the Eacuegtuca, ,
The question was then put and tarried. and ar
Bill ordered to be committed or Thursday next.
Adjourned at Nine o'Clock. .


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